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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 11:27:57 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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--_000_F5063677821E3B4F81ACFB7905573F24CE9E2823MX15Acorpemccom_--

From Christopher.Harrington@emc.com  Fri Feb  1 09:01:27 2013
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From: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>
To: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 12:00:56 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the =
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In =
that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show =
are related:

=20

Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same threat:

The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the file =
uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.=20

=20

Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same threat:=20

2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either value =
is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be present.=20

=20

The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where =
both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that =
logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can=E2=80=99t =
send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.=20

=20

The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different =
indicators that represent the same indicator. It=E2=80=99s not uncommon =
to send both the MD5 and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is =
the file but the IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are =
related? If we use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs =
to be a higher level grouping.=20

=20

Thoughts?

=20

Thanks,

=20

--Chris

=20

Christopher Harrington

Consulting Security Engineer

GSO - Critical Incident Response Center

EMC - Where Information Lives

174 Middlesex Turnpike

Bedford, MA 01730

781-515-5862 (work)

603-583-1585 (cell)

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

All =E2=80=93=20

=20

I=E2=80=99d like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions =
from the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message =
and additionally in Paul=E2=80=99s message.

=20

Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine =
automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation to =
achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.

=20

Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from =
context information that may also include IP address or other data that =
could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to connect sets =
of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to have =
watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included, as well =
as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded schemas.

=20

If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let=E2=80=99s =
say =E2=80=98indicator-uid=E2=80=99 how do we mark the indicators?  Do =
we use this to mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can =
prevent forward sharing when it is not permitted or handle that =
separately? =20

=20

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit =
into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of =
SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this =
in my first message).

=20

Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical =
solution to have this machine automatable.

=20

Thank you,

Kathleen

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
C. Henry Adams & BIE
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20


Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran =
across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a =
peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking the =
IP Address to your computer?" =20

I replied, "I don't know, how?"=20

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is =
connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL

Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder =
searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or =
let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to =
communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.  =
The device used to communicate has been captured by the great minds of =
the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize reverse =
engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their pride comes =
before a fall when seeking the location of other similar devices to =
attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that makes the device =
function properly, saves the day by disguise or cutting it off =
(figuratively speaking).

Just a visionary thought.

C. Henry Adams
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
http://biemediagroup.com


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:


From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM

UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a =
temporal Id?

Yours Faithfully,

Dave Misell MSc CISSP
SilentCircle  dsm
07710 380044
david.misell@bcs.org


On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:

> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way was =
closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, "consider =
to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some =
instances."
>=20
> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it =
would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study =
this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> From:
> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> To:
> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> I would like to look at this from a slightly different =
perspective=C5=A0let's
> say I get an XML document that tells me about an incident.  This =
document
> has source IP and destination IP that is being shared.  However, what =
I
> don't know is which IP address is my indicator and which is just a
> contextual piece of information.  This means that my detection product
> isn't going to know which one to use either, because there is nothing =
to
> tell me which IP is the one, even if the roles are set it still might =
not
> be enough to tell my system which one I should use as the indicator.
>=20
> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow =
us
> to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to =
being
> biased as I have spent much of my career working on the monitoring and
> detection side of these things, so I am just thinking of ways to make =
it
> very clear what the indicators are in the XML document and the other =
data
> that may be important as I investigate activity that I have detected =
off
> of those indicators.
>=20
>=20
> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more =
flexibility
> with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't considered is the =
UID
> portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?  How is the UID created?  =
Are
> there standards for UIDs?
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Cc: mile@ietf.org
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>=20
> Greetings Kathleen,
>=20
> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the =
many avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you =
share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>=20
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------
> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in =
IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI."
>=20
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------
>=20
> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I =
wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it =
from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree =
what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org" =
<mile@ietf.org>
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>=20
> Hello C. Henry & others,
>=20
> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in =
this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be =
more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>=20
> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for =
non-XML extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific =
to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand =
more about the included data in most cases. =20
>=20
> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the =
included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on =
the report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData =
extension point. =20
>=20
> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think =
that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft =
in the Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or =
AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could either =
have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that are =
non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes =
according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
>=20
> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>=20
> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the =
various indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other =
schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to =
add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be =
indicators?  Is this enough to make the connections or is something else =
else needed?  We could add something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis =
which would then correlate to the reference or GUID identifiers.
>=20
> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not =
in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" =
to specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group =
these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in =
multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the =
data format.  If we have cases like this where you need more complex =
representations, should we use one extension point via the SCI draft off =
of the EventData class AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are =
needed here....=20
>=20
> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared =
indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all class =
that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we =
could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF =
and then have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I =
think I like the latter approach.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> ________________________________________
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C. =
Henry Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> To: mile@ietf.org
> Cc: C. Henry Adams
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Greetings Everyone,
>=20
> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------
> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the =
SCI's
> EventReport class, IMHO.
>=20
> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it =
could be
> conveyed without using SCI draft.
> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey =
the
> indicators.
> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact =
class, if
> needed.
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------
>=20
> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>=20
> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>=20
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------
> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with =
relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so =
that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be =
better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>=20
> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------
>=20
> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the =
EventData Class.
>=20
> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass =
combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify =
this issue?
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

=20


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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the =
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In =
that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show =
are related:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same =
threat:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the file =
uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same =
threat: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either =
value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be =
present. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario =
where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show =
that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We =
can=E2=80=99t send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember =
reading. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different =
indicators that represent the same indicator. It=E2=80=99s not uncommon =
to send both the MD5 and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is =
the file but the IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are =
related? If we use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs =
to be a higher level grouping. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thoughts?<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>--Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Christopher Harrington<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Consulting Security Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>GSO - Critical Incident Response Center<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>EMC - Where Information Lives<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>174 Middlesex Turnpike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Bedford, MA 01730<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>781-515-5862 (work)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>603-583-1585 (cell)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Moriarty, Kathleen<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>All =E2=80=93 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I=E2=80=99d like your input and will refocus the thread to get =
opinions from the list on options to help solve the problems raised in =
my message and additionally in Paul=E2=80=99s =
message.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Interesting point, C. Henry.&nbsp; Our objective here is to have =
machine automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than =
obfuscation to achieve the necessary level of =
confidentiality.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from =
context information that may also include IP address or other data that =
could be indicators.&nbsp; The question I raised was on how to connect =
sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to =
have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included, as =
well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded =
schemas.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, =
let=E2=80=99s say =E2=80=98indicator-uid=E2=80=99 how do we mark the =
indicators?&nbsp; Do we use this to mark who sent the indicator as well =
so that we can prevent forward sharing when it is not permitted or =
handle that separately?&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit =
into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of =
SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this =
in my first message).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical =
solution to have this machine automatable.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.=
org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE<br><b>Sent:</b> =
Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> MILE =
IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Temporal =
Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp; I remember when I first ran across =
this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a peculiar =
question.&nbsp; He said, &quot; How do you stop someone from tracking =
the IP Address to your computer?&quot;&nbsp; <br><br>I replied, &quot;I =
don't know, how?&quot; <br><br>Then he said, &quot;Cut the dog-gone =
thing off&nbsp; and the modem that it is connected- which is constantly =
on!&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; LOL<br><br>Here's my point (Hypothetical =
Situation) :&nbsp; There is a 1st Responder searching a Neighborhood for =
Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or let's just say =
&quot;Live&quot; Terrorist Situation.&nbsp; He /or She needs to =
communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in =
Danger.&nbsp; The device used to communicate has been captured by the =
great minds of the enemy.&nbsp; It's only a matter of time before they =
utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.&nbsp; =
However, their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of =
other similar devices to attack.&nbsp; Why? Perhaps the less thought of =
concepts that makes the device function properly, saves the day by =
disguise or cutting it off (figuratively speaking).<br><br>Just a =
visionary thought.<br><br>C. Henry Adams<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.c=
om</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://biemediagroup.com">http://biemediagroup.com</a><br><br><br=
>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is =
prohibited.<br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <i>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;</i></b>=
 wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>From: Dave Misell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;<br>Subj=
ect: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>Da=
te: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>UID could be mirrored =
with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal =
Id?<br><br>Yours Faithfully,<br><br>Dave Misell MSc =
CISSP<br>SilentCircle&nbsp; dsm<br>07710 380044<br><a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a><b=
r><br><br>On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt; Serialization of a particular Lists of XML =
Classes in a unique way was closely related to what I attempted to =
express when I stated, &quot;consider to a degree what appears to be =
illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.&nbsp; However, it =
would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study =
this Security Art Form in a negative way.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry =
Adams<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
 (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@bieme=
diagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained =
herein is for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This =
information is granted for limited distribution within the recipient's =
place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, =
whether private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Re: [mile] =
IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM<br>&gt; =
From:<br>&gt; &quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>=
&gt;<br>&gt; To:<br>&gt; &quot;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; I =
would like to look at this from a slightly different =
perspective=C5=A0let's<br>&gt; say I get an XML document that tells me =
about an incident.&nbsp; This document<br>&gt; has source IP and =
destination IP that is being shared.&nbsp; However, what I<br>&gt; don't =
know is which IP address is my indicator and which is just a<br>&gt; =
contextual piece of information.&nbsp; This means that my detection =
product<br>&gt; isn't going to know which one to use either, because =
there is nothing to<br>&gt; tell me which IP is the one, even if the =
roles are set it still might not<br>&gt; be enough to tell my system =
which one I should use as the indicator.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; If we had =
something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow us<br>&gt; =
to easily identify indicators from contextual data.&nbsp; I do admit to =
being<br>&gt; biased as I have spent much of my career working on the =
monitoring and<br>&gt; detection side of these things, so I am just =
thinking of ways to make it<br>&gt; very clear what the indicators are =
in the XML document and the other data<br>&gt; that may be important as =
I investigate activity that I have detected off<br>&gt; of those =
indicators.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; I did suggest the detection class, =
but I think we may get more flexibility<br>&gt; with the =
indicator_uid.&nbsp; One thing that I haven't considered is the =
UID<br>&gt; portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?&nbsp; How is =
the UID created?&nbsp; Are<br>&gt; there standards for UIDs?<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; Regards,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<br>&gt; SMC Lead Content =
Architect<br>&gt; RSA, The Security Division of EMC<br>&gt; cell: =
302.379.3375 | e: <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a>=
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: =
&quot;KathleenMoriarty&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc=
.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Cc: <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Date: =
Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Greetings =
Kathleen,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Your logic stimulates my visionary brain =
because I'm amazed at the many avenues you review with this approach at =
once.&nbsp; However,&nbsp; could you share a few advantages and =
disadvantages to the latter?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; &quot;we could =
continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and =
then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; You =
pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I wanted to =
protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your =
logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what appears =
to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
 (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@bieme=
diagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained herein is =
for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This information is =
granted for limited distribution within the recipient's place of =
business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, whether =
private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, =
Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc=
.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: &quot;C. Henry =
Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt;, &quot;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; =
Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hello C. =
Henry &amp; others,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thanks for taking a look at =
this.&nbsp; We have a few considerations in this email thread I would =
like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more once RFC5070-bis is =
actively edited).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The AdditionalData class and the =
RecordItem class both allow for non-XML extensions.&nbsp; Where you =
place the extensions should be specific to the logical grouping of the =
parent elements so you can understand more about the included data in =
most cases.&nbsp; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The Impact class can be used to =
provide context information on the included data of the report and also =
can include a confidence rating on the report as a whole.&nbsp; =
Extensions related to impact would be one level higher (at the moment) =
in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData extension point.&nbsp; =
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Take asked about including vulnerability information, =
I would think that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of =
the SCI draft in the Method class.&nbsp; He did ask about non-XML.&nbsp; =
RecordItem or AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we =
could either have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the =
extensions that are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or =
RecordItem classes according to what makes sense from a logical =
standpoint.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; As for my question, it was =
two-fold.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Indicator based schemas have a reference =
number or a GUID for the various indicators they share.&nbsp; If we are =
extending to embed other schemas that include such reference or GUID =
identifiers, do we want to add an attribute to the various elements in =
IODEF that could be indicators?&nbsp; Is this enough to make the =
connections or is something else else needed?&nbsp; We could add =
something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate =
to the reference or GUID identifiers.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Then the other =
question was on how to include indicators that are not in the base =
schema that may be related or have language with &quot;and&quot; =
&quot;or&quot; to specify the relationships.&nbsp; In some cases, you =
will want to group these indictors in one extension point, where they =
may fit logically in multiple places if the relationships did not need =
to be shown in the data format.&nbsp; If we have cases like this where =
you need more complex representations, should we use one extension point =
via the SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension =
point?&nbsp; Opinions are needed here.... <br>&gt; <br>&gt; A few people =
have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared indictors into =
the base IODEF document.&nbsp; We could have a catch-all class that does =
this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we could =
continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and =
then have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.&nbsp; I =
think I like the latter approach.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thank you,<br>&gt; =
Kathleen<br>&gt; ________________________________________<br>&gt; From: =
<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
 [<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
] On Behalf Of C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
]<br>&gt; Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM<br>&gt; To: <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Cc: C. =
Henry Adams<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Greetings =
Everyone,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Take mentioned two types of indicators based =
on the :<br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------<br>&gt; 1) If the indicators are something =
like an XML-based alert/warning of<br>&gt; information leakage, it could =
be an event that are conveyed in the SCI's<br>&gt; EventReport class, =
IMHO.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; 2) If the indicators are something like an =
non-XML ones, I guess it could be<br>&gt; conveyed without using SCI =
draft.<br>&gt; For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF =
to convey the<br>&gt; indicators.<br>&gt; We could for instance extend =
the list of indicators of the Impact class, if<br>&gt; needed.<br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; In doing so he pointed =
out the &quot;Impact Class&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Whereas, Kathleen =
stated,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------<br>&gt; For the discussion below, I was =
thinking more of combined set with relationships that may be included in =
a single extension point, so that's why I was thinking about the =
EventData class, but there may be better locations or a specific area =
within the EventData.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul Stoecker had suggested a =
&quot;Detection&quot; class as a consideration.<br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Kathleen thoughts related =
yet still with other indicators and the EventData Class.<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which =
encompass combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to =
simplify this issue?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
 (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@bieme=
diagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained =
herein is for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This =
information is granted for limited distribution within the recipient's =
place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, =
whether private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; mile mailing =
list<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 11:24:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
To: MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>, KathleenMoriarty <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
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Cc: "C. Henry Adams" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
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---1977980688-396984636-1359746662=:67639
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings,

It is truly a privileged to be in the midst of so many Intelligent Cyber Se=
curity Minds.=C2=A0 Each time I read the threads on Mile, I find myself ref=
erencing terminology, acronyms related to computer science and RFCs.

Furthermore, it is my desire to understand and share the Vision of the Auth=
or(s) which I'm assuming consist of Kathleen, as well as, others.=C2=A0 So,=
 please forgive me if you completely blow over my head with your logic, for=
e, I'm not that far behind you in thought.=C2=A0=20

Kathleen, I understood your following statement: "Our objective here is to =
have machine automated =0Aexchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than o=
bfuscation to achieve =0Athe necessary level of confidentiality."

Forgive me, but is not Encryption and Obfuscation one in the same depending=
 on how you look at it.

Furthermore,=C2=A0 if I was to tell you that a "Simple Minded Computer Tech=
nician" like myself could figure out analytically how to attack your indica=
tors to set up a simple plan to disable your automated machine's communicat=
ions, would you not believe me?=C2=A0 Oh, one more thing, the fact of the m=
atter that the capabilities would be there- would be based on say the proto=
col you put into place by complexity rather than simplicity.

Paul has great points.=C2=A0 Chris and Dave are on point as well.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 I'm clearly not a technical writer, but I'm a visionary that enjoys put=
ting things into action.=C2=A0 No offense or disrespect, just being counter=
 intuitive when comes to a train wreck.




=0A            =0A            =0A            From: =0A            "Harringt=
on, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>=0A            =09=0A     =
       =09=0A            =09=0A        =09To: =0A        =09"Moriarty, Kath=
leen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, "MILE IETF" <mile@ietf.org>=0A          =
  =09=0A                Message contains attachments=0A                =0A =
               1 File (7KB)=0A                =0A            =0A        smi=
me.p7sI=0A think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use th=
e =0AWatchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In =
=0Athat message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show =
=0Aare related: =C2=A0Two or more indicators of different type that relate =
to the same threat:The=0A file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the =
C2 that the file uses.=0A Either or both may be present to indicate a compr=
omise.  =C2=A0Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the sa=
me threat: 2=0A different registry values for the same registry key. If eit=
her value is=0A present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be p=
resent.  =C2=A0The=0A problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the s=
cenario where both=0A groupings above are part of the same threat. I need t=
o show that =0Alogical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can=
=E2=80=99t send =0Amultiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember re=
ading.  =C2=A0The=0A last one I can think of would be when you have 2 diffe=
rent indicators =0Athat represent the same indicator. It=E2=80=99s not unco=
mmon to send both the =0AMD5 and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicat=
or is the file but the=0A IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they a=
re related? If we use a=0A unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there ne=
eds to be a higher =0Alevel grouping.  =C2=A0Thoughts? =C2=A0Thanks, =C2=A0=
--Chris =C2=A0Christopher HarringtonConsulting Security EngineerGSO - Criti=
cal Incident Response CenterEMC - Where Information Lives174 Middlesex Turn=
pikeBedford, MA 01730781-515-5862 (work)603-583-1585 (cell) =C2=A0From: mil=
e-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Moriarty, Ka=
thleen
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs =C2=A0All =E2=80=93  =C2=A0I=E2=80=99d=0A like you=
r input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from the =0Alist on opt=
ions to help solve the problems raised in my message and =0Aadditionally in=
 Paul=E2=80=99s message. =C2=A0Interesting=0A point, C. Henry.=C2=A0 Our ob=
jective here is to have machine automated =0Aexchanges, so we rely on encry=
ption rather than obfuscation to achieve =0Athe necessary level of confiden=
tiality. =C2=A0Paul=0A mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of comp=
romise from context=0A information that may also include IP address or othe=
r data that could =0Abe indicators.=C2=A0 The question I raised was on how =
to connect sets of =0Aindicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the a=
bility to have =0Awatchlists that could have several sets of indicators inc=
luded, as well =0Aas to connect indicators that may be included in embedded=
 schemas. =C2=A0If=0A we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators=
, let=E2=80=99s say =0A=E2=80=98indicator-uid=E2=80=99 how do we mark the i=
ndicators?=C2=A0 Do we use this to mark =0Awho sent the indicator as well s=
o that we can prevent forward sharing =0Awhen it is not permitted or handle=
 that separately?=C2=A0  =C2=A0Then=0A for indicators not included in the b=
ase schema that may not fit into a =0Acategory in the SCI draft, do we crea=
te a place for these off of SCI or =0Aright off of the IODE schema in Event=
Data? (more details on this in my =0Afirst message). =C2=A0Comments and que=
stions encouraged to figure out the right technical solution to have this m=
achine automatable. =C2=A0Thank you,Kathleen =C2=A0From: mile-bounces@ietf.=
org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs =C2=A0Temporal=0A Dependency sounds interesting.=
=C2=A0 I remember when I first ran across this=0A particular craft, an expe=
rienced colleague asked me a peculiar =0Aquestion.=C2=A0 He said, " How do =
you stop someone from tracking the IP =0AAddress to your computer?"=C2=A0=
=20

I replied, "I don't know, how?"=20

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off=C2=A0 and the modem that it is co=
nnected- which is constantly on!"=C2=A0=C2=A0 LOL

Here's=0A my point (Hypothetical Situation) :=C2=A0 There is a 1st Responde=
r searching=0A a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or=
 let's just=0A say "Live" Terrorist Situation.=C2=A0 He /or She needs to co=
mmunication back=0A to other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.=C2=
=A0 The device used =0Ato communicate has been captured by the great minds =
of the enemy.=C2=A0 It's =0Aonly a matter of time before they utilize rever=
se engineering to figure =0Aout how it functions.=C2=A0 However, their prid=
e comes before a fall when =0Aseeking the location of other similar devices=
 to attack.=C2=A0 Why? Perhaps =0Athe less thought of concepts that makes t=
he device function properly, =0Asaves the day by disguise or cutting it off=
 (figuratively speaking).

Just a visionary thought.

C. Henry Adams
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
http://biemediagroup.com


The=0A information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the origina=
l =0Arecipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within=
 =0Athe recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further =
=0Adissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PMUID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a=
 pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?

Yours Faithfully,

Dave Misell MSc CISSP
SilentCircle=C2=A0 dsm
07710 380044
david.misell@bcs.org


On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> wrot=
e:

>=0A Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way was=
 =0Aclosely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, "consider=
 =0Ato a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some =0A=
instances."
>=20
> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a =0Alittle clearer.=C2=A0 However, i=
t would be nice if the UID was in some way =0Adisguised from those who stud=
y this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
>=0A The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =0Aor=
iginal recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution=0A w=
ithin the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =0AFurt=
her dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> From:
> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> To:
> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> I would like to look at this from a slightly different perspective=C5=A0l=
et's
> say I get an XML document that tells me about an incident.=C2=A0 This doc=
ument
> has source IP and destination IP that is being shared.=C2=A0 However, wha=
t I
> don't know is which IP address is my indicator and which is just a
> contextual piece of information.=C2=A0 This means that my detection produ=
ct
> isn't going to know which one to use either, because there is nothing to
> tell me which IP is the one, even if the roles are set it still might not
> be enough to tell my system which one I should use as the indicator.
>=20
> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow us
> to easily identify indicators from contextual data.=C2=A0 I do admit to b=
eing
> biased as I have spent much of my career working on the monitoring and
> detection side of these things, so I am just thinking of ways to make it
> very clear what the indicators are in the XML document and the other data
> that may be important as I investigate activity that I have detected off
> of those indicators.
>=20
>=20
> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more flexibilit=
y
> with the indicator_uid.=C2=A0 One thing that I haven't considered is the =
UID
> portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?=C2=A0 How is the UID created=
?=C2=A0 Are
> there standards for UIDs?
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>=20
> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Cc: mile@ietf.org
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>=20
> Greetings Kathleen,
>=20
>=0A Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the man=
y=0A avenues you review with this approach at once.=C2=A0 However,=C2=A0 co=
uld you =0Ashare a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------
>=0A "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in =
=0AIODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via =0AS=
CI."
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------
>=20
>=0A You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I wante=
d=0A to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from =
=0Ayour logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what =
=0Aappears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=0A The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =0Aor=
iginal recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution=0A w=
ithin the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =0AFurt=
her dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote=
:
>=20
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org" <mile=
@ietf.org>
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>=20
> Hello C. Henry & others,
>=20
>=0A Thanks for taking a look at this.=C2=A0 We have a few considerations i=
n this=0A email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be m=
ore =0Aonce RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>=20
> The =0AAdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for non-X=
ML =0Aextensions.=C2=A0 Where you place the extensions should be specific t=
o the =0Alogical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more=
 about=0A the included data in most cases.=C2=A0=20
>=20
> The Impact class =0Acan be used to provide context information on the inc=
luded data of the =0Areport and also can include a confidence rating on the=
 report as a =0Awhole.=C2=A0 Extensions related to impact would be one leve=
l higher (at the =0Amoment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalDat=
a extension =0Apoint.=C2=A0=20
>=20
> Take asked about including vulnerability =0Ainformation, I would think th=
at would fit under the Vulnerability =0Aextension point of the SCI draft in=
 the Method class.=C2=A0 He did ask about =0Anon-XML.=C2=A0 RecordItem or A=
dditionalData do allow for non-XML extension =0Apoints, we could either hav=
e the SCI draft handle these as well or have =0Athe extensions that are non=
-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or =0ARecordItem classes accordin=
g to what makes sense from a logical =0Astandpoint.
>=20
> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>=20
>=0A Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the =0Av=
arious indicators they share.=C2=A0 If we are extending to embed other =0As=
chemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to =0Aad=
d an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be =0Aindicators=
?=C2=A0 Is this enough to make the connections or is something else=0A else=
 needed?=C2=A0 We could add something like an Indicator_ID in =0ARFC5070-bi=
s which would then correlate to the reference or GUID =0Aidentifiers.
>=20
> Then the other question was on how to =0Ainclude indicators that are not =
in the base schema that may be related =0Aor have language with "and" "or" =
to specify the relationships.=C2=A0 In some =0Acases, you will want to grou=
p these indictors in one extension point, =0Awhere they may fit logically i=
n multiple places if the relationships did=0A not need to be shown in the d=
ata format.=C2=A0 If we have cases like this =0Awhere you need more complex=
 representations, should we use one extension=0A point via the SCI draft of=
f of the EventData class AdditionalData =0Aextension point?=C2=A0 Opinions =
are needed here....=20
>=20
> A few =0Apeople have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared in=
dictors =0Ainto the base IODEF document.=C2=A0 We could have a catch-all cl=
ass that does=0A this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or =
we could =0Acontinue to group items in logical places as is done now in IOD=
EF and =0Athen have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.=C2=
=A0 I think I=0A like the latter approach.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> ________________________________________
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C. Henry=
 Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> To: mile@ietf.org
> Cc: C. Henry Adams
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Greetings Everyone,
>=20
> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------
> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the SCI's
> EventReport class, IMHO.
>=20
> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it could=
 be
> conveyed without using SCI draft.
> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey the
> indicators.
> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact class, =
if
> needed.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------
>=20
> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>=20
> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------
>=0A For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with =0A=
relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so =0Athat'=
s why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be =0Abetter =
locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>=20
> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------
>=20
> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the EventDa=
ta Class.
>=20
>=0A Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass =0Ac=
ombining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify =0Athi=
s issue?
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
>=0A The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =0Aor=
iginal recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution=0A w=
ithin the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =0AFurt=
her dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

C. Henry Adams
=0Achatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
=0Achenryadams@biemediagroup.com
=0A
=0A
=0AThe information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the origina=
l recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within th=
e recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemi=
nation, whether private or public is prohibited.
---1977980688-396984636-1359746662=:67639
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><div class=3D"msgheader"><div class=3D"subjec=
tbar"><div>Greetings,<br><br>It is truly a privileged to be in the midst of=
 so many Intelligent Cyber Security Minds.&nbsp; Each time I read the threa=
ds on Mile, I find myself referencing terminology, acronyms related to comp=
uter science and RFCs.<br><br>Furthermore, it is my desire to understand an=
d share the Vision of the Author(s) which I'm assuming consist of Kathleen,=
 as well as, others.&nbsp; So, please forgive me if you completely blow ove=
r my head with your logic, fore, I'm not that far behind you in thought.&nb=
sp; <br><br>Kathleen, I understood your following statement: "<span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot=
;;color:#1F497D;">Our objective here is to have machine automated =0Aexchan=
ges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation to achieve =0Athe nec=
essary level of confidentiality.</span>"<br><br>Forgive me, but is not Encr=
yption and Obfuscation one in the same depending on how you look at it.<br>=
<br>Furthermore,&nbsp; if I was to tell you that a "Simple Minded Computer =
Technician" like myself could figure out analytically how to attack your in=
dicators to set up a simple plan to disable your automated machine's commun=
ications, would you not believe me?&nbsp; Oh, one more thing, the fact of t=
he matter that the capabilities would be there- would be based on say the p=
rotocol you put into place by complexity rather than simplicity.<br><br>Pau=
l has great points.&nbsp; Chris and Dave are on point as well.&nbsp;&nbsp; =
I'm clearly not a technical writer, but I'm a visionary that enjoys putting=
 things into action.&nbsp; No offense or disrespect, just being counter int=
uitive when comes to a train wreck.<br><br><br><br><br></div></div>=0A     =
       <div class=3D"vcard">=0A            <div class=3D"row">=0A          =
  <div class=3D"label">From: </div>=0A            <div class=3D"details"><d=
iv class=3D"abook"><span class=3D"email">"Harrington, Christopher" &lt;Chri=
stopher.Harrington@emc.com&gt;</span></div>=0A            =09</div>=0A     =
       =09=0A            =09</div><div class=3D"row">=0A        =09<div cla=
ss=3D"label">To: </div>=0A        =09<div class=3D"details">"Moriarty, Kath=
leen" &lt;kathleen.moriarty@emc.com&gt;, "MILE IETF" &lt;mile@ietf.org&gt;<=
/div></div><div class=3D"row">=0A            =09<div class=3D"label">=0A   =
             <div class=3D"icons attachicon" title=3D"Message contains atta=
chments"><span class=3D"offscreen">Message contains attachments</span></div=
>=0A                </div>=0A                <div class=3D"details">1 File =
(7KB)</div>=0A                =0A            </div>=0A        <div class=3D=
"row"><ul class=3D"tmbnails clearfix"><li class=3D"img"><a class=3D"imgname=
"
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/showMessage?filterBy=3D&amp;.ran=
d=3D2074425330&amp;midIndex=3D21&amp;mid=3D2_0_0_1_119616027_ANlbimIAALy2UQ=
v09wErhnI0CZQ&amp;fromId=3D&amp;m=3D2_0_0_1_119622283_ANlbimIAAUSWUQv6rQXUd=
HpFe4A%2C2_0_0_1_119620840_ALZaimIAARh%2FUQv3Zgg92GaDuu4%2C2_0_0_1_11962003=
6_ALZaimIAARAqUQv2%2FQAwR0u1J9s%2C2_0_0_1_119618677_ALZaimIAAO4BUQv1qgeM7DF=
nxoc%2C2_0_0_1_119617402_AMJaimIAAAuNUQv1pAPj1Vs8C%2F0%2C2_0_0_1_119616027_=
ANlbimIAALy2UQv09wErhnI0CZQ%2C2_0_0_1_119614687_ALZaimIAAM0RUQvzvASWY1vPBJQ=
%2C2_0_0_1_119613293_ANlbimIAAFNVUQvwFAo%2FFUYEjTM%2C2_0_0_1_119611696_AFdb=
imIAASKyUQvtUwvdIE2Ivkk%2C2_0_0_1_119610413_ALZaimIAAEoEUQvtMQJPsWuCymI%2C2=
_0_0_1_119609304_AFdbimIAAQfOUQvsYw8hZA%2Bj4cI%2C&amp;sort=3Ddate&amp;order=
=3Ddown&amp;startMid=3D0&amp;hash=3D92a39ed8c15cb513b2cdede47a6d8633&amp;.j=
srand=3D281400&amp;acrumb=3DbkOuNgNrrOO&amp;enc=3Dauto&amp;cmd=3Dmsg.scan&a=
mp;pid=3D3.1.2&amp;tnef=3D&amp;fn=3Dsmime.p7s" title=3D"smime.p7s"><img alt=
=3D"smime.p7s"
 src=3D"http://mail.yimg.com/nq/mc/1_0_0/us/pim/mail/neutral.gif">smime.p7s=
</a></li></ul></div></div></div><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#1F497D;">I=0A think we have a bigger relationship issue to addr=
ess. Let use the =0AWatchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in o=
ne message. In =0Athat message we could have groupings of indicators that w=
e need to show =0Aare related:</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Two or more indicators of different ty=
pe that relate to the same threat:</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"text-indent:.5in;"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">The=0A file h=
ash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the file uses.=0A Either=
 or both may be present to indicate a compromise. </span></p><p class=3D"yi=
v324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><p clas=
s=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Two or more indica=
tors of the same type that relate to the same threat: </span></p><p class=
=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:.5in;"><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#=
1F497D;">2=0A different registry values for the same registry key. If eithe=
r value is=0A present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be pre=
sent. </span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F4=
97D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;col=
or:#1F497D;">The=0A problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the sce=
nario where both=0A groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to =
show that =0Alogical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can=E2=
=80=99t send =0Amultiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember readi=
ng. </span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497=
D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:#1F497D;">The=0A last one I can think of would be when you have 2 differen=
t indicators =0Athat represent the same indicator. It=E2=80=99s not uncommo=
n to send both the =0AMD5 and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator =
is the file but the=0A IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are =
related? If we use a=0A unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs=
 to be a higher =0Alevel grouping. </span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><div><p class=3D"yiv32=
4648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Thoughts?</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans=
-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Thanks,</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648=
158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">--Chris</span></p><p class=3D"yi=
v324648158MsoNormal"><span
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Christopher Harrington</span></p><p class=3D=
"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Consulting Security En=
gineer</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F4=
97D;">GSO - Critical Incident Response Center</span></p><p class=3D"yiv3246=
48158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">EMC - Where Information Lives<=
/span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">1=
74 Middlesex
 Turnpike</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#=
1F497D;">Bedford, MA 01730</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">781-515-5862 (work)</span></p><p class=3D"yiv3246=
48158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">603-583-1585 (cell)</span></p>=
</div><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbs=
p;</span></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;=
padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><b><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Taho=
ma&quot;,
 &quot;sans-serif&quot;;"> mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.=
org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Moriarty, Kathleen<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, Februar=
y 01, 2013 11:28 AM<br><b>To:</b> MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] I=
OCs</span></p></div></div><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p><p =
class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">All =E2=80=93 =
</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">=
 &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D;">I=E2=80=99d=0A like your input and will refocus the thread to get op=
inions from the =0Alist on options to help solve the problems raised in my =
message and =0Aadditionally in Paul=E2=80=99s message.</span></p><p class=
=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><=
p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Interesting=
=0A point, C. Henry.&nbsp; Our objective here is to have machine automated =
=0Aexchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation to achieve =
=0Athe necessary level of confidentiality.</span></p><p class=3D"yiv3246481=
58MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv=
324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Paul=0A mentioned the need=
 to distinguish indicators of compromise from context=0A information that m=
ay also include IP address or other data that could =0Abe indicators.&nbsp;=
 The question I raised was on how to connect sets of =0Aindicators in the s=
ame IODEF document, assuming the ability to have =0Awatchlists that could h=
ave several sets of indicators included, as well =0Aas to connect indicator=
s that may be included in embedded schemas.</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648=
158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yi=
v324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">If=0A we add an attribute=
 on all of the relevant indicators, let=E2=80=99s say =0A=E2=80=98indicator=
-uid=E2=80=99 how do we mark the indicators?&nbsp; Do we use this to mark =
=0Awho sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing =
=0Awhen it is not permitted or handle that separately?&nbsp; </span></p><p =
class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span>=
</p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Then=0A=
 for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit into a =0A=
category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of SCI or =0A=
right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this in my =0Af=
irst message).</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#1F497D;">Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the ri=
ght technical solution to have this machine automatable.</span></p><p class=
=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><=
p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Thank you,</=
span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Ka=
thleen</span></p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"><span
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-=
top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class=3D"yiv32464815=
8MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;"> <a rel=3D"nofol=
low" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a rel=3D"nofollow" tar=
get=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D[mail=
to:mile-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org]</a> <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 28, 2013 11=
:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] IOCs</span></p=
></div><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p><p class=3D"yiv3246481=
58MsoNormal">Temporal=0A Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp; I remember wh=
en I first ran across this=0A particular craft, an experienced colleague as=
ked me a peculiar =0Aquestion.&nbsp; He said, " How do you stop someone fro=
m tracking the IP =0AAddress to your computer?"&nbsp; <br><br>I replied, "I=
 don't know, how?" <br><br>Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off&nbsp; =
and the modem that it is connected- which is constantly on!"&nbsp;&nbsp; LO=
L<br><br>Here's=0A my point (Hypothetical Situation) :&nbsp; There is a 1st=
 Responder searching=0A a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Di=
saster or let's just=0A say "Live" Terrorist Situation.&nbsp; He /or She ne=
eds to communication back=0A to other Officials that he /or somehow is in D=
anger.&nbsp; The device used =0Ato communicate has been captured by the gre=
at minds of the enemy.&nbsp; It's =0Aonly a matter of time before they util=
ize reverse engineering to figure =0Aout how it functions.&nbsp; However, t=
heir pride comes before a fall when =0Aseeking the location of other simila=
r devices to attack.&nbsp; Why? Perhaps =0Athe less thought of concepts tha=
t makes the device function properly, =0Asaves the day by disguise or cutti=
ng it off (figuratively speaking).<br><br>Just a visionary thought.<br><br>=
C. Henry Adams<br><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.m=
c534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryad=
ams@biemediagroup.com</a><br><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=
http://biemediagroup.com">http://biemediagroup.com</a><br><br><br>The=0A in=
formation contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original =0Areci=
pient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =0Athe r=
ecipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further =0Adissemi=
nation, whether private or public is prohibited.<br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 1/28=
/13, Dave Misell <i>&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http:=
//us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misel=
l@bcs.org</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:</p><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><br>From: Dave Misell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" t=
arget=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddav=
id.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;<br>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs=
<br>To: "C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank=
" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 =
PM</p><div><p class=3D"yiv324648158MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt=
;">UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a t=
emporal Id?<br><br>Yours Faithfully,<br><br>Dave Misell MSc CISSP<br>Silent=
Circle&nbsp;
 dsm<br>07710 380044<br><a rel=3D"nofollow">david.misell@bcs.org</a><br><br=
><br>On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a rel=3D"nofol=
low">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt;=0A Serialization of a=
 particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way was =0Aclosely related to =
what I attempted to express when I stated, "consider =0Ato a degree what ap=
pears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some =0Ainstances."<br>&gt; <br=
>&gt; However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a =0Alittle clearer.&nbsp; Howeve=
r, it would be nice if the UID was in some way =0Adisguised from those who =
study this Security Art Form in a negative way.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry A=
dams<br>&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)<b=
r>&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&g=
t; <br>&gt;=0A The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of=
 the =0Aoriginal recipient. This information is granted for limited distrib=
ution=0A within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes onl=
y. =0AFurther dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.<br>&g=
t; <br>&gt; Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 =
PM<br>&gt; From:<br>&gt; "Stoecker, Paul" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">Paul.Stoe=
cker@rsa.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; To:<br>&gt; "<a rel=3D"nofollow">mile@ietf.org=
</a>" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; I would like to=
 look at this from a slightly different perspective=C5=A0let's<br>&gt; say =
I get an XML document that tells me about an incident.&nbsp; This document<=
br>&gt; has source IP and destination IP that is being shared.&nbsp; Howeve=
r, what I<br>&gt; don't know is which IP address is my indicator and which =
is just a<br>&gt; contextual piece of information.&nbsp; This means that my=
 detection product<br>&gt; isn't going to know which one to use either, bec=
ause there is nothing to<br>&gt; tell me which IP is the one, even if the r=
oles are set it still might not<br>&gt; be enough to tell my system which o=
ne I
 should use as the indicator.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; If we had something like ind=
icator_id as an attribute, it would allow us<br>&gt; to easily identify ind=
icators from contextual data.&nbsp; I do admit to being<br>&gt; biased as I=
 have spent much of my career working on the monitoring and<br>&gt; detecti=
on side of these things, so I am just thinking of ways to make it<br>&gt; v=
ery clear what the indicators are in the XML document and the other data<br=
>&gt; that may be important as I investigate activity that I have detected =
off<br>&gt; of those indicators.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; I did suggest th=
e detection class, but I think we may get more flexibility<br>&gt; with the=
 indicator_uid.&nbsp; One thing that I haven't considered is the UID<br>&gt=
; portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?&nbsp; How is the UID created=
?&nbsp; Are<br>&gt; there standards for UIDs?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Regards,<br>=
&gt; <br>&gt; Paul<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul W. Stoecker,
 Ph.D.<br>&gt; SMC Lead Content Architect<br>&gt; RSA, The Security Divisio=
n of EMC<br>&gt; cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a rel=3D"nofollow">paul.stoecker@=
rsa.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE =
&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&g=
t; From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">chatlga2000@yahoo=
.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: "KathleenMoriarty=
" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Cc: <a =
rel=3D"nofollow">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013=
, 6:17 PM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Greetings Kathleen,<br>&gt; <br>&gt;=0A Your log=
ic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the many=0A avenues =
you review with this approach at once.&nbsp; However,&nbsp; could you =0Ash=
are a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; ----=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------<br>&gt;=0A "we could continue t=
o group items in logical places as is done now in =0AIODEF and then have th=
e extension point for combined indicators via =0ASCI."<br>&gt; <br>&gt; ---=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt;=0A You pointed=
 out what you consider to be logical places, but if I wanted=0A to protect =
information from parties capable of ascertaining it from =0Ayour logical pl=
aces, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what =0Aappears to be ill=
ogical in brilliant minds in some instances.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>=
&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (=
Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a>=
<br>&gt; <br>&gt;=0A The information contained herein is for the exclusive =
use of the =0Aoriginal recipient. This information is granted for limited d=
istribution=0A within the recipient's place of business for planning purpos=
es only. =0AFurther dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.=
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a rel=3D"nof=
ollow">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: Mori=
arty, Kathleen &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br=
>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: "C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE" &lt;<=
a rel=3D"nofollow">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, "<a rel=3D"nofollow">mile=
@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Date: =
Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hello C. Henry &amp; =
others,<br>&gt; <br>&gt;=0A Thanks for taking a look at this.&nbsp; We have=
 a few considerations in this=0A email thread I would like to hear thoughts=
 on (and there may be more =0Aonce RFC5070-bis is actively edited).<br>&gt;=
 <br>&gt; The =0AAdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow f=
or non-XML =0Aextensions.&nbsp; Where you place the extensions should be sp=
ecific to the =0Alogical grouping of the parent elements so you can underst=
and more about=0A the included data in most cases.&nbsp; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
The Impact class =0Acan be used to provide context information on the inclu=
ded data of the =0Areport and also can include a confidence rating on the r=
eport as a =0Awhole.&nbsp; Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher (at the =0Amoment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData =
extension =0Apoint.&nbsp; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Take asked about including vuln=
erability =0Ainformation, I would think that would fit under the Vulnerabil=
ity =0Aextension point of the SCI draft in the Method class.&nbsp; He did a=
sk about =0Anon-XML.&nbsp; RecordItem or AdditionalData do allow for non-XM=
L extension =0Apoints, we could either have the SCI draft handle these as w=
ell or have =0Athe extensions that are non-XML come directly off the Additi=
onalData or =0ARecordItem classes according to what makes sense from a logi=
cal =0Astandpoint.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; As for my question, it was two-fold.<br=
>&gt; <br>&gt;=0A Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID=
 for the =0Avarious indicators they share.&nbsp; If we are extending to emb=
ed other =0Aschemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we =
want to =0Aadd an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be =
=0Aindicators?&nbsp; Is this enough to make the connections or is something=
 else=0A else needed?&nbsp; We could add something like an Indicator_ID in =
=0ARFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the reference or GUID =0Aident=
ifiers.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Then the other question was on how to =0Ainclude i=
ndicators that are not in the base schema that may be related =0Aor have la=
nguage with "and" "or" to specify the relationships.&nbsp; In some =0Acases=
, you will want to group these indictors in one extension point, =0Awhere t=
hey may fit logically in multiple places if the relationships did=0A not ne=
ed to be shown in the data format.&nbsp; If we have cases like this =0Awher=
e you need more complex representations, should we use one extension=0A poi=
nt via the SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData =0Aextension=
 point?&nbsp; Opinions are needed here.... <br>&gt; <br>&gt; A few =0Apeopl=
e have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared indictors =0Ainto =
the base IODEF document.&nbsp; We could have a catch-all class that does=0A=
 this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we could =0Acont=
inue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and =0Athen h=
ave the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.&nbsp; I think I=0A=
 like the latter approach.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thank you,<br>&gt; Kathleen<br>=
&gt; ________________________________________<br>&gt; From: <a rel=3D"nofol=
low">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a rel=3D"nofollow">mile-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>] On Behalf Of C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [<a rel=3D"nofollow">chatlga2000@=
yahoo.com</a>]<br>&gt; Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM<br>&gt; To:=
 <a rel=3D"nofollow">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Cc: C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; S=
ubject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Greetings Everyone,<br>&gt; <br>&g=
t; Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :<br>&gt; ----------=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------<br>&gt; 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-ba=
sed alert/warning of<br>&gt; information leakage, it could be an event that=
 are conveyed in the SCI's<br>&gt; EventReport class, IMHO.<br>&gt; <br>&gt=
; 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it could
 be<br>&gt; conveyed without using SCI draft.<br>&gt; For instance, we coul=
d use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey the<br>&gt; indicators.<br>&=
gt; We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact class=
, if<br>&gt; needed.<br>&gt; ----------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I=
n doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Whereas, Kath=
leen stated,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; ---------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------<br>&gt;=0A For the=
 discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with =0Arelationship=
s that may be included in a single extension point, so =0Athat's why I was =
thinking about the EventData class, but there may be =0Abetter locations or=
 a specific area within the EventData.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul Stoecker had s=
uggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.<br>&gt; ------------------=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other ind=
icators and the EventData Class.<br>&gt; <br>&gt;=0A Is there a possible wa=
y to create a new XML class which encompass =0Acombining the EventData, Det=
ection and base IODEF classes to simplify =0Athis issue?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <=
br>&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a=
> (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<=
/a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;=0A The information contained herein is for th=
e exclusive use of the =0Aoriginal recipient. This information is granted f=
or limited distribution=0A within the recipient's place of business for pla=
nning purposes only. =0AFurther dissemination, whether private or public is=
 prohibited.<br>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt=
; mile mailing list<br>&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <=
a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/mile">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a></p></div><br><=
br>C. Henry Adams<br>=0Achatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)<br>=0Achenryad=
ams@biemediagroup.com<br>=0A<br>=0A<br>=0AThe information contained herein =
is for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This information is gra=
nted for limited distribution within the recipient's place of business for =
planning purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=
 prohibited.</td></tr></table>
---1977980688-396984636-1359746662=:67639--

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To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 17:11:36 -0500
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Hi Chris,

=20

I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.

=20

The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to the =
definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including =
indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to =
=E2=80=98parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident =
for sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like =
indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes =
back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.  It may help to =
have the first draft try to address at least some of these issues so =
people can understand the problems and at least a proposed solution.

=20

As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between sets =
of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that could =
have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the July =
presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add new =
category attribute values for the System class that would connect the =
list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the concept =
of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list multiple =
sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had suggested =
pulling forward the =E2=80=9CFraudType=E2=80=9D from RFC5901, this would =
help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an AttackType =
(FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader term). =
 It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute values like =
=E2=80=9CC2-server=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Csinkhole=E2=80=9D,  =
=E2=80=9CMalwareDistribution=E2=80=9D for added context so you know what =
to do with the received set of indicators.

=20

I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of =
indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method =
to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an =
attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to =
make the connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly =
shared into the base IODEF.

=20

Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and hashes =
to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help Chris =
below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a class off of =
RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in RFC5901, and also =
added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?  I think if we then =
had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we could connect a set =
within that structure and repeat the structure for other sets in the =
same way we would do with Node inside of the System class, using the =
indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at the more specific level =
for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an indicator_uid if we =
needed them marked at this level as well?  Maybe we want indicator_set =
at the higher level?  I=E2=80=99d like some opinions on this approach.  =
+1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas that may work =
better.

=20

We=E2=80=99ll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent =
forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values or =
something else. =20

=20

Thank you!
Kathleen =20

=20

From: Harrington, Christopher=20
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the =
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In =
that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show =
are related:

=20

Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same threat:

The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the file =
uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.=20

=20

Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same threat:=20

2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either value =
is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be present.=20

=20

The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where =
both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that =
logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can=E2=80=99t =
send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.=20

=20

The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different =
indicators that represent the same indicator. It=E2=80=99s not uncommon =
to send both the MD5 and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is =
the file but the IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are =
related? If we use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs =
to be a higher level grouping.=20

=20

Thoughts?

=20

Thanks,

=20

--Chris

=20

Christopher Harrington

Consulting Security Engineer

GSO - Critical Incident Response Center

EMC - Where Information Lives

174 Middlesex Turnpike

Bedford, MA 01730

781-515-5862 (work)

603-583-1585 (cell)

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

All =E2=80=93=20

=20

I=E2=80=99d like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions =
from the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message =
and additionally in Paul=E2=80=99s message.

=20

Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine =
automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation to =
achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.

=20

Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from =
context information that may also include IP address or other data that =
could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to connect sets =
of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to have =
watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included, as well =
as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded schemas.

=20

If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let=E2=80=99s =
say =E2=80=98indicator-uid=E2=80=99 how do we mark the indicators?  Do =
we use this to mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can =
prevent forward sharing when it is not permitted or handle that =
separately? =20

=20

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit =
into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of =
SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this =
in my first message).

=20

Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical =
solution to have this machine automatable.

=20

Thank you,

Kathleen

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
C. Henry Adams & BIE
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20


Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran =
across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a =
peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking the =
IP Address to your computer?" =20

I replied, "I don't know, how?"=20

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is =
connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL

Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder =
searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or =
let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to =
communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.  =
The device used to communicate has been captured by the great minds of =
the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize reverse =
engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their pride comes =
before a fall when seeking the location of other similar devices to =
attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that makes the device =
function properly, saves the day by disguise or cutting it off =
(figuratively speaking).

Just a visionary thought.

C. Henry Adams
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
http://biemediagroup.com


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:


From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM

UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a =
temporal Id?

Yours Faithfully,

Dave Misell MSc CISSP
SilentCircle  dsm
07710 380044
david.misell@bcs.org


On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:

> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way was =
closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, "consider =
to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some =
instances."
>=20
> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it =
would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study =
this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> From:
> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> To:
> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> I would like to look at this from a slightly different =
perspective=C5=A0let's
> say I get an XML document that tells me about an incident.  This =
document
> has source IP and destination IP that is being shared.  However, what =
I
> don't know is which IP address is my indicator and which is just a
> contextual piece of information.  This means that my detection product
> isn't going to know which one to use either, because there is nothing =
to
> tell me which IP is the one, even if the roles are set it still might =
not
> be enough to tell my system which one I should use as the indicator.
>=20
> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow =
us
> to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to =
being
> biased as I have spent much of my career working on the monitoring and
> detection side of these things, so I am just thinking of ways to make =
it
> very clear what the indicators are in the XML document and the other =
data
> that may be important as I investigate activity that I have detected =
off
> of those indicators.
>=20
>=20
> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more =
flexibility
> with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't considered is the =
UID
> portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?  How is the UID created?  =
Are
> there standards for UIDs?
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Cc: mile@ietf.org
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>=20
> Greetings Kathleen,
>=20
> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the =
many avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you =
share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>=20
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------
> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in =
IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI."
>=20
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------
>=20
> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I =
wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it =
from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree =
what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org" =
<mile@ietf.org>
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>=20
> Hello C. Henry & others,
>=20
> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in =
this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be =
more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>=20
> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for =
non-XML extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific =
to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand =
more about the included data in most cases. =20
>=20
> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the =
included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on =
the report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData =
extension point. =20
>=20
> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think =
that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft =
in the Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or =
AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could either =
have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that are =
non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes =
according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
>=20
> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>=20
> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the =
various indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other =
schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to =
add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be =
indicators?  Is this enough to make the connections or is something else =
else needed?  We could add something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis =
which would then correlate to the reference or GUID identifiers.
>=20
> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not =
in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" =
to specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group =
these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in =
multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the =
data format.  If we have cases like this where you need more complex =
representations, should we use one extension point via the SCI draft off =
of the EventData class AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are =
needed here....=20
>=20
> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared =
indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all class =
that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we =
could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF =
and then have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I =
think I like the latter approach.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> ________________________________________
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C. =
Henry Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> To: mile@ietf.org
> Cc: C. Henry Adams
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Greetings Everyone,
>=20
> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------
> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the =
SCI's
> EventReport class, IMHO.
>=20
> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it =
could be
> conveyed without using SCI draft.
> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey =
the
> indicators.
> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact =
class, if
> needed.
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------
>=20
> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>=20
> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>=20
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------
> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with =
relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so =
that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be =
better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>=20
> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------
>=20
> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the =
EventData Class.
>=20
> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass =
combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify =
this issue?
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

=20


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi Chris,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, =
RFC5070-bis.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to =
the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including =
indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to =
=E2=80=98parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident =
for sharing purposes.=C2=A0 It was written before we used terms like =
indicators.=C2=A0 With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of =
changes back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.=C2=A0 It =
may help to have the first draft try to address at least some of these =
issues so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed =
solution.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between =
sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that =
could have a relationship to each other within a document.=C2=A0 In the =
July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add new =
category attribute values for the System class that would connect the =
list of included indicators.=C2=A0 I think we should still keep the =
concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list =
multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.=C2=A0 Rosella had =
suggested pulling forward the =E2=80=9CFraudType=E2=80=9D from RFC5901, =
this would help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an =
AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some =
broader term).=C2=A0 It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus =
attribute values like =E2=80=9CC2-server=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Csinkhole=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CMalwareDistribution=E2=80=9D =
for added context so you know what to do with the received set of =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of =
indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method =
to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an =
attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to =
make the connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly =
shared into the base IODEF.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and =
hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help Chris =
below).=C2=A0 What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a class =
off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in RFC5901, and =
also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?=C2=A0 I think if =
we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we could connect =
a set within that structure and repeat the structure for other sets in =
the same way we would do with Node inside of the System class, using the =
indicator_uid to tie the set together.=C2=A0 Then at the more specific =
level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an indicator_uid if =
we needed them marked at this level as well?=C2=A0 Maybe we want =
indicator_set at the higher level?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d like some opinions =
on this approach.=C2=A0 +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other =
ideas that may work better.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>We=E2=80=99ll also need to worry about marking the indicators to =
prevent forward sharing when not permitted.=C2=A0 We may want to use =
these values or something else.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thank you!<br>Kathleen=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Harrington, Christopher <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the =
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In =
that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show =
are related:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same =
threat:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the file =
uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same =
threat: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either =
value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be =
present. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario =
where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show =
that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We =
can=E2=80=99t send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember =
reading. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different =
indicators that represent the same indicator. It=E2=80=99s not uncommon =
to send both the MD5 and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is =
the file but the IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are =
related? If we use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs =
to be a higher level grouping. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thoughts?<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>--Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Christopher Harrington<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Consulting Security Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>GSO - Critical Incident Response Center<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>EMC - Where Information Lives<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>174 Middlesex Turnpike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Bedford, MA 01730<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>781-515-5862 (work)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>603-583-1585 (cell)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Moriarty, Kathleen<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February =
01, 2013 11:28 AM<br><b>To:</b> MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>All =E2=80=93 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I=E2=80=99d like your input and will refocus the thread to get =
opinions from the list on options to help solve the problems raised in =
my message and additionally in Paul=E2=80=99s =
message.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Interesting point, C. Henry.&nbsp; Our objective here is to have =
machine automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than =
obfuscation to achieve the necessary level of =
confidentiality.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from =
context information that may also include IP address or other data that =
could be indicators.&nbsp; The question I raised was on how to connect =
sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to =
have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included, as =
well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded =
schemas.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, =
let=E2=80=99s say =E2=80=98indicator-uid=E2=80=99 how do we mark the =
indicators?&nbsp; Do we use this to mark who sent the indicator as well =
so that we can prevent forward sharing when it is not permitted or =
handle that separately?&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit =
into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of =
SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this =
in my first message).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical =
solution to have this machine automatable.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.=
org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE<br><b>Sent:</b> =
Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> MILE =
IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Temporal =
Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp; I remember when I first ran across =
this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a peculiar =
question.&nbsp; He said, &quot; How do you stop someone from tracking =
the IP Address to your computer?&quot;&nbsp; <br><br>I replied, &quot;I =
don't know, how?&quot; <br><br>Then he said, &quot;Cut the dog-gone =
thing off&nbsp; and the modem that it is connected- which is constantly =
on!&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; LOL<br><br>Here's my point (Hypothetical =
Situation) :&nbsp; There is a 1st Responder searching a Neighborhood for =
Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or let's just say =
&quot;Live&quot; Terrorist Situation.&nbsp; He /or She needs to =
communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in =
Danger.&nbsp; The device used to communicate has been captured by the =
great minds of the enemy.&nbsp; It's only a matter of time before they =
utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.&nbsp; =
However, their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of =
other similar devices to attack.&nbsp; Why? Perhaps the less thought of =
concepts that makes the device function properly, saves the day by =
disguise or cutting it off (figuratively speaking).<br><br>Just a =
visionary thought.<br><br>C. Henry Adams<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.c=
om</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://biemediagroup.com">http://biemediagroup.com</a><br><br><br=
>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is =
prohibited.<br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <i>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;</i></b>=
 wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>From: Dave Misell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;<br>Subj=
ect: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>Da=
te: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>UID could be mirrored =
with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal =
Id?<br><br>Yours Faithfully,<br><br>Dave Misell MSc =
CISSP<br>SilentCircle&nbsp; dsm<br>07710 380044<br><a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a><b=
r><br><br>On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt; Serialization of a particular Lists of XML =
Classes in a unique way was closely related to what I attempted to =
express when I stated, &quot;consider to a degree what appears to be =
illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.&nbsp; However, it =
would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study =
this Security Art Form in a negative way.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry =
Adams<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
 (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@bieme=
diagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained =
herein is for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This =
information is granted for limited distribution within the recipient's =
place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, =
whether private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Re: [mile] =
IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM<br>&gt; =
From:<br>&gt; &quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>=
&gt;<br>&gt; To:<br>&gt; &quot;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; I =
would like to look at this from a slightly different =
perspective=C5=A0let's<br>&gt; say I get an XML document that tells me =
about an incident.&nbsp; This document<br>&gt; has source IP and =
destination IP that is being shared.&nbsp; However, what I<br>&gt; don't =
know is which IP address is my indicator and which is just a<br>&gt; =
contextual piece of information.&nbsp; This means that my detection =
product<br>&gt; isn't going to know which one to use either, because =
there is nothing to<br>&gt; tell me which IP is the one, even if the =
roles are set it still might not<br>&gt; be enough to tell my system =
which one I should use as the indicator.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; If we had =
something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow us<br>&gt; =
to easily identify indicators from contextual data.&nbsp; I do admit to =
being<br>&gt; biased as I have spent much of my career working on the =
monitoring and<br>&gt; detection side of these things, so I am just =
thinking of ways to make it<br>&gt; very clear what the indicators are =
in the XML document and the other data<br>&gt; that may be important as =
I investigate activity that I have detected off<br>&gt; of those =
indicators.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; I did suggest the detection class, =
but I think we may get more flexibility<br>&gt; with the =
indicator_uid.&nbsp; One thing that I haven't considered is the =
UID<br>&gt; portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?&nbsp; How is =
the UID created?&nbsp; Are<br>&gt; there standards for UIDs?<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; Regards,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<br>&gt; SMC Lead Content =
Architect<br>&gt; RSA, The Security Division of EMC<br>&gt; cell: =
302.379.3375 | e: <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a>=
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: =
&quot;KathleenMoriarty&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc=
.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Cc: <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Date: =
Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Greetings =
Kathleen,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Your logic stimulates my visionary brain =
because I'm amazed at the many avenues you review with this approach at =
once.&nbsp; However,&nbsp; could you share a few advantages and =
disadvantages to the latter?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; &quot;we could =
continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and =
then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; You =
pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I wanted to =
protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your =
logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what appears =
to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
 (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@bieme=
diagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained herein is =
for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This information is =
granted for limited distribution within the recipient's place of =
business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, whether =
private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, =
Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc=
.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: &quot;C. Henry =
Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt;, &quot;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; =
Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hello C. =
Henry &amp; others,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thanks for taking a look at =
this.&nbsp; We have a few considerations in this email thread I would =
like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more once RFC5070-bis is =
actively edited).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The AdditionalData class and the =
RecordItem class both allow for non-XML extensions.&nbsp; Where you =
place the extensions should be specific to the logical grouping of the =
parent elements so you can understand more about the included data in =
most cases.&nbsp; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The Impact class can be used to =
provide context information on the included data of the report and also =
can include a confidence rating on the report as a whole.&nbsp; =
Extensions related to impact would be one level higher (at the moment) =
in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData extension point.&nbsp; =
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Take asked about including vulnerability information, =
I would think that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of =
the SCI draft in the Method class.&nbsp; He did ask about non-XML.&nbsp; =
RecordItem or AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we =
could either have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the =
extensions that are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or =
RecordItem classes according to what makes sense from a logical =
standpoint.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; As for my question, it was =
two-fold.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Indicator based schemas have a reference =
number or a GUID for the various indicators they share.&nbsp; If we are =
extending to embed other schemas that include such reference or GUID =
identifiers, do we want to add an attribute to the various elements in =
IODEF that could be indicators?&nbsp; Is this enough to make the =
connections or is something else else needed?&nbsp; We could add =
something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate =
to the reference or GUID identifiers.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Then the other =
question was on how to include indicators that are not in the base =
schema that may be related or have language with &quot;and&quot; =
&quot;or&quot; to specify the relationships.&nbsp; In some cases, you =
will want to group these indictors in one extension point, where they =
may fit logically in multiple places if the relationships did not need =
to be shown in the data format.&nbsp; If we have cases like this where =
you need more complex representations, should we use one extension point =
via the SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension =
point?&nbsp; Opinions are needed here.... <br>&gt; <br>&gt; A few people =
have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared indictors into =
the base IODEF document.&nbsp; We could have a catch-all class that does =
this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we could =
continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and =
then have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.&nbsp; I =
think I like the latter approach.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thank you,<br>&gt; =
Kathleen<br>&gt; ________________________________________<br>&gt; From: =
<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
 [<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
] On Behalf Of C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
]<br>&gt; Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM<br>&gt; To: <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Cc: C. =
Henry Adams<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Greetings =
Everyone,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Take mentioned two types of indicators based =
on the :<br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------<br>&gt; 1) If the indicators are something =
like an XML-based alert/warning of<br>&gt; information leakage, it could =
be an event that are conveyed in the SCI's<br>&gt; EventReport class, =
IMHO.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; 2) If the indicators are something like an =
non-XML ones, I guess it could be<br>&gt; conveyed without using SCI =
draft.<br>&gt; For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF =
to convey the<br>&gt; indicators.<br>&gt; We could for instance extend =
the list of indicators of the Impact class, if<br>&gt; needed.<br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; In doing so he pointed =
out the &quot;Impact Class&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Whereas, Kathleen =
stated,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------<br>&gt; For the discussion below, I was =
thinking more of combined set with relationships that may be included in =
a single extension point, so that's why I was thinking about the =
EventData class, but there may be better locations or a specific area =
within the EventData.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul Stoecker had suggested a =
&quot;Detection&quot; class as a consideration.<br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Kathleen thoughts related =
yet still with other indicators and the EventData Class.<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which =
encompass combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to =
simplify this issue?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
 (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@bieme=
diagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained =
herein is for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This =
information is granted for limited distribution within the recipient's =
place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, =
whether private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; mile mailing =
list<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
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From Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com  Sun Feb  3 17:26:33 2013
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From: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
To: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 20:26:02 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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--_000_CD346D68D0F9paulstoeckerrsacom_
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What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?  This wou=
ld allow you to group indicators that are related into the same group ID.  =
Would this resolve the issue?

It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators) class=
 that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them into one p=
lace and have the ability to group the ones that go together.  I don't mean=
 a place to put indicators that are missing from IODEF=85I mean a place in =
the IODEF document where you put the indicators that are used for detection=
 and prevention of the shared Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but =
there has got to be a good way for indicators to be identified and being ab=
le to group them as Chris has suggested without basically recreating someth=
ing complicated like STIX.

Paul


Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com<mailto:paul.stoecker@rsa.com>


From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<mailto:kathleen.moria=
rty@emc.com>>
Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com<mailto:Christ=
opher.Harrington@emc.com>>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Hi Chris,

I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.

The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to the de=
finitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including indicators an=
d sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to =91parts of an inciden=
t or the useful information on an incident for sharing purposes.  It was wr=
itten before we used terms like indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella pro=
posed a number of changes back in July, both for guidance and for format up=
dates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least some of=
 these issues so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed=
 solution.

As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between sets of =
indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that could have a re=
lationship to each other within a document.  In the July presentation, one =
of the questions was to see if we should add new category attribute values =
for the System class that would connect the list of included indicators.  I=
 think we should still keep the concept of a Node to a single node, but per=
haps within System, list multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of att=
ack.  Rosella had suggested pulling forward the =93FraudType=94 from RFC590=
1, this would help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an A=
ttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader=
 term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute values lik=
e =93C2-server=94, =93sinkhole=94,  =93MalwareDistribution=94 for added con=
text so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.

I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of indicators,=
 add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect indi=
cators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of indicator_u=
id (or some other name) with a string value to make the connection points, =
and add a few indicators that are commonly shared into the base IODEF.

Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and hashes to=
 the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help Chris below).  Wh=
at if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a class off of RecordData, u=
sing a similar structure to what is in RFC5901, and also added the ability =
to include hashes in RecordData?  I think if we then had the indicator_uid =
at the RecordData level, we could connect a set within that structure and r=
epeat the structure for other sets in the same way we would do with Node in=
side of the System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together. =
 Then at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc.=
 use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Mayb=
e we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I=92d like some opinions on t=
his approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas that ma=
y work better.

We=92ll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent forward =
sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values or something e=
lse.

Thank you!
Kathleen

From: Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the Watchli=
st Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In that message=
 we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show are related:

Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same threat:
The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the file uses.=
 Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.

Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same threat:
2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either value is p=
resent it is a compromise indicator but both will not be present.

The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where both=
 groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that logical g=
roupings of Indicators are related as well. We can=92t send multiple IODEF =
messages for this from what I remember reading.

The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different indicators t=
hat represent the same indicator. It=92s not uncommon to send both the MD5 =
and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the IOCs a=
re the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use a unique I=
nidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher level grouping.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

--Chris

Christopher Harrington
Consulting Security Engineer
GSO - Critical Incident Response Center
EMC - Where Information Lives
174 Middlesex Turnpike
Bedford, MA 01730
781-515-5862 (work)
603-583-1585 (cell)

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-boun=
ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

All =96

I=92d like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from the =
list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message and additio=
nally in Paul=92s message.

Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine automat=
ed exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation to achieve t=
he necessary level of confidentiality.

Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from contex=
t information that may also include IP address or other data that could be =
indicators.  The question I raised was on how to connect sets of indicators=
 in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to have watchlists that c=
ould have several sets of indicators included, as well as to connect indica=
tors that may be included in embedded schemas.

If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let=92s say =91in=
dicator-uid=92 how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to mark who s=
ent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing when it is=
 not permitted or handle that separately?

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit into a=
 category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of SCI or ri=
ght off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this in my first =
message).

Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical solutio=
n to have this machine automatable.

Thank you,
Kathleen

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-boun=
ces@ietf.org]<mailto:[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org]> On Behalf Of C. Henry =
Adams & BIE
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran across=
 this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a peculiar questi=
on.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking the IP Address to you=
r computer?"

I replied, "I don't know, how?"

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is connect=
ed- which is constantly on!"   LOL

Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder search=
ing a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or let's just=
 say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to communication back to=
 other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.  The device used to comm=
unicate has been captured by the great minds of the enemy.  It's only a mat=
ter of time before they utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it fu=
nctions.  However, their pride comes before a fall when seeking the locatio=
n of other similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of con=
cepts that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or=
 cutting it off (figuratively speaking).

Just a visionary thought.

C. Henry Adams
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com>
http://biemediagroup.com


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original r=
ecipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the r=
ecipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further disseminat=
ion, whether private or public is prohibited.

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org<mailto:david.misell@=
bcs.org>> wrote:

From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org<mailto:david.misell@bcs.org>>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.=
com>>
Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM
UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temp=
oral Id?

Yours Faithfully,

Dave Misell MSc CISSP
SilentCircle  dsm
07710 380044
david.misell@bcs.org</mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org>


On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/c=
ompose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>> wrote:

> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way was cl=
osely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, "consider to a =
degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances."
>
> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it would =
be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this Secu=
rity Art Form in a negative way.
>
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Ema=
il)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.=
com>
>
>
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original=
 recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the=
 recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemin=
ation, whether private or public is prohibited.
>
> Re: [mile] IOCs
>
> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> From:
> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rs=
a.com>>
> To:
> "mile@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>" <mile@ietf.org</mc/compos=
e?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>>
> I would like to look at this from a slightly different perspective=8Alet'=
s
> say I get an XML document that tells me about an incident.  This document
> has source IP and destination IP that is being shared.  However, what I
> don't know is which IP address is my indicator and which is just a
> contextual piece of information.  This means that my detection product
> isn't going to know which one to use either, because there is nothing to
> tell me which IP is the one, even if the roles are set it still might not
> be enough to tell my system which one I should use as the indicator.
>
> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow us
> to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to being
> biased as I have spent much of my career working on the monitoring and
> detection side of these things, so I am just thinking of ways to make it
> very clear what the indicators are in the XML document and the other data
> that may be important as I investigate activity that I have detected off
> of those indicators.
>
>
> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more flexibilit=
y
> with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't considered is the UID
> portion of this=8Ahow do we use that UID?  How is the UID created?  Are
> there standards for UIDs?
>
> Regards,
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com</mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoec=
ker@rsa.com>
>
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/comp=
ose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchatlg=
a2000@yahoo.com>>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</mc/compose?to=3Dkathle=
en.moriarty@emc.com>>
> Cc: mile@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>
> Greetings Kathleen,
>
> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the many a=
venues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you share a =
few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------
> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IOD=
EF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI."
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------
>
> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I wanted t=
o protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your log=
ical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what appears to be=
 illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>
>
>
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Ema=
il)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.=
com>
>
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original=
 recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the=
 recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemin=
ation, whether private or public is prohibited.
>
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</mc/co=
mpose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>> wrote:
>
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</mc/compose?to=3Dkath=
leen.moriarty@emc.com>>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchatlg=
a2000@yahoo.com>>, "mile@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>" <mile@ie=
tf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>>
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>
> Hello C. Henry & others,
>
> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in this e=
mail thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more once RF=
C5070-bis is actively edited).
>
> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for non-XML =
extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the logic=
al grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more about the inc=
luded data in most cases.
>
> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the includ=
ed data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on the repor=
t as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level higher (at t=
he moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData extension point=
.
>
> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think that =
would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in the M=
ethod class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or AdditionalData do al=
low for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft handle=
 these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come directly off th=
e AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes sense from a=
 logical standpoint.
>
> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>
> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the various=
 indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas that in=
clude such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an attribute to=
 the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this enough to=
 make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could add somet=
hing like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the =
reference or GUID identifiers.
>
> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not in =
the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" to spe=
cify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group these indict=
ors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in multiple places=
 if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data format.  If we h=
ave cases like this where you need more complex representations, should we =
use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData class Additi=
onalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....
>
> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared indic=
tors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all class that do=
es this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we could conti=
nue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and then have =
the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I like the la=
tter approach.
>
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> ________________________________________
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> [mile=
-bounces@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of C. =
Henry Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo=
.com>]
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> To: mile@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>
> Cc: C. Henry Adams
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>
> Greetings Everyone,
>
> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------
> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the SCI's
> EventReport class, IMHO.
>
> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it could=
 be
> conveyed without using SCI draft.
> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey the
> indicators.
> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact class, =
if
> needed.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------
>
> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>
> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------
> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with relati=
onships that may be included in a single extension point, so that's why I w=
as thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better locations or=
 a specific area within the EventData.
>
> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------
>
> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the EventDa=
ta Class.
>
> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass combini=
ng the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify this issue?
>
>
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Ema=
il)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.=
com>
>
>
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original=
 recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the=
 recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemin=
ation, whether private or public is prohibited.
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile



--_000_CD346D68D0F9paulstoeckerrsacom_
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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1=
250"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;=
 -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14p=
x; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div><div>What if we added indicator=
 group ID along with the indicator_uid? &nbsp;This would allow you to group=
 indicators that are related into the same group ID. &nbsp;Would this resol=
ve the issue?</div><div><br></div><div>It is either that or going back to a=
dding a Detection (or Indicators) class that will should be used to take al=
l of the indicators put them into one place and have the ability to group t=
he ones that go together. &nbsp;I don't mean a place to put indicators that=
 are missing from IODEF=85I mean a place in the IODEF document where you pu=
t the indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared I=
ncident. &nbsp;I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a good=
 way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them as Chris =
has suggested without basically recreating something complicated like STIX.=
</div><div><br></div><div>Paul</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; background-color: rgb(255=
, 255, 255); "><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, san=
s-serif; ">Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><=
span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: nav=
y; ">SMC Lead Content Architect</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"font-size: 11pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><b><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: red; ">=
RSA, The Security Division of EMC</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><s=
pan style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: navy=
; ">cell: 302.379.3375 | e:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:paul.stoecker@rsa.com">p=
aul.stoecker@rsa.com</a></span></p></div><div><br></div></div></div><div><b=
r></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri=
; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;=
 BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-=
RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDI=
NG-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> &lt;Moriarty&gt=
;, Kathleen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moria=
rty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Sunda=
y, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>=
 &quot;Harrington, Christopher&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Christopher.Harr=
ington@emc.com">Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>&gt;, MILE IETF &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-we=
ight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [mile] IOCs<br></div><div><br></div><div xm=
lns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-co=
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=
=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); ">Hi Chris,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125)=
; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I =
agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The list has already said th=
ey would like to see indicators added to the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to=
 be more explicit about including indicators and sets of indicators in IODE=
 documents as opposed to =91parts of an incident or the useful information =
on an incident for sharing purposes.&nbsp; It was written before we used te=
rms like indicators.&nbsp; With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of =
changes back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.&nbsp; It ma=
y help to have the first draft try to address at least some of these issues=
 so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed solution.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fa=
mily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">As you point out, we =
need to be able to show relationships between sets of indicators, where we =
may have a few sets of indicators that could have a relationship to each ot=
her within a document.&nbsp; In the July presentation, one of the questions=
 was to see if we should add new category attribute values for the System c=
lass that would connect the list of included indicators.&nbsp; I think we s=
hould still keep the concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within=
 System, list multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.&nbsp; =
Rosella had suggested pulling forward the =93FraudType=94 from RFC5901, thi=
s would help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an AttackT=
ype (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader term)=
.&nbsp; It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute values like=
 =93C2-server=94, =93sinkhole=94,&nbsp; =93MalwareDistribution=94 for added=
 context so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I am proposing that we ch=
ange IODEF to include multiple sets of indicators, add an AttackType attrib=
ute (or some other name), a method to connect indicators and indicator sets=
 within an IODEF using an attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) w=
ith a string value to make the connection points, and add a few indicators =
that are commonly shared into the base IODEF.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Ke=
y/Value pairs and hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this =
will help Chris below).&nbsp; What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs=
 as a class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in RFC5=
901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?&nbsp; I th=
ink if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we could conn=
ect a set within that structure and repeat the structure for other sets in =
the same way we would do with Node inside of the System class, using the in=
dicator_uid to tie the set together.&nbsp; Then at the more specific level =
for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an indicator_uid if we neede=
d them marked at this level as well?&nbsp; Maybe we want indicator_set at t=
he higher level?&nbsp; I=92d like some opinions on this approach.&nbsp; &#4=
3;1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas that may work better.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">We=92ll also need =
to worry about marking the indicators to prevent forward sharing when not p=
ermitted.&nbsp; We may want to use these values or something else.&nbsp; <o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Thank you!<br>Kathle=
en&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B=
5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> Harringto=
n, Christopher <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM<br><b>To=
:</b> Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I think we have a bigger relationshi=
p issue to address. Let use the Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators a=
re sent in one message. In that message we could have groupings of indicato=
rs that we need to show are related:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; col=
or: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125); ">Two or more indicators of different type that relate to t=
he same threat:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-i=
ndent:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The file hash of a malicious file and the URL=
 of the C2 that the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a =
compromise. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size=
: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Two or=
 more indicators of the same type that relate to the same threat: <o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); ">2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either val=
ue is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be present. <o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The problem compound=
s itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where both groupings above are=
 part of the same threat. I need to show that logical groupings of Indicato=
rs are related as well. We can=92t send multiple IODEF messages for this fr=
om what I remember reading. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(=
31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73=
, 125); ">The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different in=
dicators that represent the same indicator. It=92s not uncommon to send bot=
h the MD5 and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but =
the IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use =
a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher level =
grouping. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Thoughts?<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; col=
or: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125); ">--Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,=
 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); ">Christopher Harrington<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb=
(31, 73, 125); ">Consulting Security Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">GSO - Critical Incident Response Center<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">EMC - Where Inf=
ormation Lives<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">174 Middlesex Turnpike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, =
73, 125); ">Bedford, MA 01730<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb=
(31, 73, 125); ">781-515-5862 (work)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; col=
or: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">603-583-1585 (cell)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sa=
ns-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0=
in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-=
family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> <a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mil=
e-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mil=
e-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Moriarty, Kathleen<br><b>Sent:<=
/b> Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM<br><b>To:</b> MILE IETF<br><b>Subjec=
t:</b> Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 1=
1pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">All =96 <=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;=
 font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I=92d like your inp=
ut and will refocus the thread to get opinions from the list on options to =
help solve the problems raised in my message and additionally in Paul=92s m=
essage.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11p=
t; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Interesting=
 point, C. Henry.&nbsp; Our objective here is to have machine automated exc=
hanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation to achieve the nec=
essary level of confidentiality.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31=
, 73, 125); ">Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromi=
se from context information that may also include IP address or other data =
that could be indicators.&nbsp; The question I raised was on how to connect=
 sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to hav=
e watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included, as well a=
s to connect indicators that may be included in embedded schemas.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">If we add an attribute on al=
l of the relevant indicators, let=92s say =91indicator-uid=92 how do we mar=
k the indicators?&nbsp; Do we use this to mark who sent the indicator as we=
ll so that we can prevent forward sharing when it is not permitted or handl=
e that separately?&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,=
 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); ">Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=
 into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of SC=
I or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this in my=
 first message).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125)=
; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Co=
mments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical solution =
to have this machine automatable.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:=
 rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(3=
1, 73, 125); ">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,=
 73, 125); ">Kathleen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,=
 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:s=
olid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span=
></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> <a=
 href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D=
"mailto:[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org]</a> =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, Januar=
y 28, 2013 11:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] I=
OCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td valign=3D"top" style=3D"padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp; I remember=
 when I first ran across this particular craft, an experienced colleague as=
ked me a peculiar question.&nbsp; He said, &quot; How do you stop someone f=
rom tracking the IP Address to your computer?&quot;&nbsp; <br><br>I replied=
, &quot;I don't know, how?&quot; <br><br>Then he said, &quot;Cut the dog-go=
ne thing off&nbsp; and the modem that it is connected- which is constantly =
on!&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; LOL<br><br>Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :=
&nbsp; There is a 1st Responder searching a Neighborhood for Survivors whic=
h were hit by a Disaster or let's just say &quot;Live&quot; Terrorist Situa=
tion.&nbsp; He /or She needs to communication back to other Officials that =
he /or somehow is in Danger.&nbsp; The device used to communicate has been =
captured by the great minds of the enemy.&nbsp; It's only a matter of time =
before they utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.&nbs=
p; However, their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of ot=
her similar devices to attack.&nbsp; Why? Perhaps the less thought of conce=
pts that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or c=
utting it off (figuratively speaking).<br><br>Just a visionary thought.<br>=
<br>C. Henry Adams<br><a href=3D"mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chen=
ryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br><a href=3D"http://biemediagroup.com">http:=
//biemediagroup.com</a><br><br><br>The information contained herein is for =
the exclusive use of the original recipient. This information is granted fo=
r limited distribution within the recipient's place of business for plannin=
g purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohib=
ited.<br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <i>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d=
avid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>From: Dave Mi=
sell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&g=
t;<br>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<=
br>Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC=
 a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?<br><br>Yours Faithfully,<=
br><br>Dave Misell MSc CISSP<br>SilentCircle&nbsp; dsm<br>07710 380044<br><=
a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a><b=
r><br><br>On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a href=3D=
"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br><br>&gt; Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a uniq=
ue way was closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, &q=
uot;consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in=
 some instances.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point=
 a little clearer.&nbsp; However, it would be nice if the UID was in some w=
ay disguised from those who study this Security Art Form in a negative way.=
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlg=
a2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a href=
=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagro=
up.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained herein is fo=
r the exclusive use of the original recipient. This information is granted =
for limited distribution within the recipient's place of business for plann=
ing purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is proh=
ibited.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Sunday, January 2=
7, 2013 8:52 PM<br>&gt; From:<br>&gt; &quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;<=
br>&gt; To:<br>&gt; &quot;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; I would like to look at this from a slightly different =
perspective=8Alet's<br>&gt; say I get an XML document that tells me about a=
n incident.&nbsp; This document<br>&gt; has source IP and destination IP th=
at is being shared.&nbsp; However, what I<br>&gt; don't know is which IP ad=
dress is my indicator and which is just a<br>&gt; contextual piece of infor=
mation.&nbsp; This means that my detection product<br>&gt; isn't going to k=
now which one to use either, because there is nothing to<br>&gt; tell me wh=
ich IP is the one, even if the roles are set it still might not<br>&gt; be =
enough to tell my system which one I should use as the indicator.<br>&gt; <=
br>&gt; If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would all=
ow us<br>&gt; to easily identify indicators from contextual data.&nbsp; I d=
o admit to being<br>&gt; biased as I have spent much of my career working o=
n the monitoring and<br>&gt; detection side of these things, so I am just t=
hinking of ways to make it<br>&gt; very clear what the indicators are in th=
e XML document and the other data<br>&gt; that may be important as I invest=
igate activity that I have detected off<br>&gt; of those indicators.<br>&gt=
; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may g=
et more flexibility<br>&gt; with the indicator_uid.&nbsp; One thing that I =
haven't considered is the UID<br>&gt; portion of this=8Ahow do we use that =
UID?&nbsp; How is the UID created?&nbsp; Are<br>&gt; there standards for UI=
Ds?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Regards,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&g=
t; <br>&gt; Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<br>&gt; SMC Lead Content Architect<br>&=
gt; RSA, The Security Division of EMC<br>&gt; cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a hr=
ef=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><br>=
&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a href=3D"=
/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Subject=
: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: &quot;KathleenMoriarty&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"/=
mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt=
;<br>&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><=
br>&gt; Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Greeting=
s Kathleen,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Your logic stimulates my visionary brain becau=
se I'm amazed at the many avenues you review with this approach at once.&nb=
sp; However,&nbsp; could you share a few advantages and disadvantages to th=
e latter?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; ------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<=
br>&gt; &quot;we could continue to group items in logical places as is done=
 now in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via=
 SCI.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; ----------------------------------------------=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, b=
ut if I wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining =
it from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree wh=
at appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.<br>&gt; <b=
r>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=
=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)<br>&gt; =
<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biem=
ediagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained herein is for =
the exclusive use of the original recipient. This information is granted fo=
r limited distribution within the recipient's place of business for plannin=
g purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohib=
ited.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a href=
=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/=
compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<b=
r>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@ya=
hoo.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf=
.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM<br>&gt; <br>&gt=
; Hello C. Henry &amp; others,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thanks for taking a look at=
 this.&nbsp; We have a few considerations in this email thread I would like=
 to hear thoughts on (and there may be more once RFC5070-bis is actively ed=
ited).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class b=
oth allow for non-XML extensions.&nbsp; Where you place the extensions shou=
ld be specific to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can un=
derstand more about the included data in most cases.&nbsp; <br>&gt; <br>&gt=
; The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the includ=
ed data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on the repor=
t as a whole.&nbsp; Extensions related to impact would be one level higher =
(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData extension =
point.&nbsp; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Take asked about including vulnerability inf=
ormation, I would think that would fit under the Vulnerability extension po=
int of the SCI draft in the Method class.&nbsp; He did ask about non-XML.&n=
bsp; RecordItem or AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we=
 could either have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extension=
s that are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem class=
es according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.<br>&gt; <br>&gt=
; As for my question, it was two-fold.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Indicator based sch=
emas have a reference number or a GUID for the various indicators they shar=
e.&nbsp; If we are extending to embed other schemas that include such refer=
ence or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an attribute to the various ele=
ments in IODEF that could be indicators?&nbsp; Is this enough to make the c=
onnections or is something else else needed?&nbsp; We could add something l=
ike an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the refere=
nce or GUID identifiers.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Then the other question was on ho=
w to include indicators that are not in the base schema that may be related=
 or have language with &quot;and&quot; &quot;or&quot; to specify the relati=
onships.&nbsp; In some cases, you will want to group these indictors in one=
 extension point, where they may fit logically in multiple places if the re=
lationships did not need to be shown in the data format.&nbsp; If we have c=
ases like this where you need more complex representations, should we use o=
ne extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalD=
ata extension point?&nbsp; Opinions are needed here.... <br>&gt; <br>&gt; A=
 few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared indictor=
s into the base IODEF document.&nbsp; We could have a catch-all class that =
does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we could con=
tinue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and then hav=
e the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.&nbsp; I think I like=
 the latter approach.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thank you,<br>&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt; =
________________________________________<br>&gt; From: <a href=3D"/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"/mc/co=
mpose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of C=
. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com"=
>chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]<br>&gt; Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 A=
M<br>&gt; To: <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><=
br>&gt; Cc: C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt=
; Greetings Everyone,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Take mentioned two types of indicato=
rs based on the :<br>&gt; -------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; 1) If the ind=
icators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of<br>&gt; informatio=
n leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the SCI's<br>&gt; Even=
tReport class, IMHO.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; 2) If the indicators are something li=
ke an non-XML ones, I guess it could be<br>&gt; conveyed without using SCI =
draft.<br>&gt; For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to=
 convey the<br>&gt; indicators.<br>&gt; We could for instance extend the li=
st of indicators of the Impact class, if<br>&gt; needed.<br>&gt; ----------=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; In doing so he pointed out the &quot;Imp=
act Class&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Whereas, Kathleen stated,<br>&gt; <br>&gt;=
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------<br>&gt; For the discussion below, I was thinkin=
g more of combined set with relationships that may be included in a single =
extension point, so that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, bu=
t there may be better locations or a specific area within the EventData.<br=
>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul Stoecker had suggested a &quot;Detection&quot; class as=
 a consideration.<br>&gt; -------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Kathle=
en thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the EventData Class=
.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which =
encompass combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simp=
lify this issue?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a href=
=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Dire=
ct Email)<br>&gt; <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com=
">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The informati=
on contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original recipient. Thi=
s information is granted for limited distribution within the recipient's pl=
ace of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, whether =
private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; __________________________________=
_____________<br>&gt; mile mailing list<br>&gt; <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=
=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/mile" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/mile</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></td></tr></tbody></table><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></div></span></body></html>

--_000_CD346D68D0F9paulstoeckerrsacom_--

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Cc: MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Subject: [mile] C. Henry's Analytical Attack
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I am not quite sure this attack is relevant in the MILE use case.  I =
would be curious if you could explain in further detail how you would =
disrupt MILE communications.  If there is a fatal flaw (beyond the known =
flaws in TCP), it would be good to get them out in the open.

Considering the Computer Science perspective, if we are modeling a =
complex world, our model will be complex.  Check out McCabe.  However, =
one can add more complexity than necessary to model our domain.  That is =
what we seek to avoid here.

Note that I changed the subject of the thread, as this has nothing to do =
with indicator correlation.

On Feb 1, 2013, at 2:24 PM, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:

> Greetings,
>=20
> It is truly a privileged to be in the midst of so many Intelligent =
Cyber Security Minds.  Each time I read the threads on Mile, I find =
myself referencing terminology, acronyms related to computer science and =
RFCs.
>=20
> Furthermore, it is my desire to understand and share the Vision of the =
Author(s) which I'm assuming consist of Kathleen, as well as, others.  =
So, please forgive me if you completely blow over my head with your =
logic, fore, I'm not that far behind you in thought. =20
>=20
> Kathleen, I understood your following statement: "Our objective here =
is to have machine automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather =
than obfuscation to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality."
>=20
> Forgive me, but is not Encryption and Obfuscation one in the same =
depending on how you look at it.
>=20
> Furthermore,  if I was to tell you that a "Simple Minded Computer =
Technician" like myself could figure out analytically how to attack your =
indicators to set up a simple plan to disable your automated machine's =
communications, would you not believe me?  Oh, one more thing, the fact =
of the matter that the capabilities would be there- would be based on =
say the protocol you put into place by complexity rather than =
simplicity.
>=20
> Paul has great points.  Chris and Dave are on point as well.   I'm =
clearly not a technical writer, but I'm a visionary that enjoys putting =
things into action.  No offense or disrespect, just being counter =
intuitive when comes to a train wreck.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From:
> "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>
> To:
> "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, "MILE IETF" =
<mile@ietf.org>
> Message contains attachments
> 1 File (7KB)
> 	=95 smime.p7s
> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the =
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In =
that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show =
are related:
>=20
> =20
> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same =
threat:
>=20
> The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the file =
uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.
>=20
> =20
> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same =
threat:
>=20
> 2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either value =
is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be present.
>=20
> =20
> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where =
both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that =
logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can=92t send =
multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
>=20
> =20
> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different =
indicators that represent the same indicator. It=92s not uncommon to =
send both the MD5 and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is =
the file but the IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are =
related? If we use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs =
to be a higher level grouping.
>=20
> =20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> =20
> Thanks,
>=20
> =20
> --Chris
>=20
> =20
> Christopher Harrington
>=20
> Consulting Security Engineer
>=20
> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center
>=20
> EMC - Where Information Lives
>=20
> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>=20
> Bedford, MA 01730
>=20
> 781-515-5862 (work)
>=20
> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>=20
> =20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> =20
> All =96
>=20
> =20
> I=92d like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from =
the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message and =
additionally in Paul=92s message.
>=20
> =20
> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine =
automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation to =
achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>=20
> =20
> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from =
context information that may also include IP address or other data that =
could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to connect sets =
of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to have =
watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included, as well =
as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded schemas.
>=20
> =20
> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let=92s say =
=91indicator-uid=92 how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to =
mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward =
sharing when it is not permitted or handle that separately?=20
>=20
> =20
> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit =
into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of =
SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this =
in my first message).
>=20
> =20
> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical =
solution to have this machine automatable.
>=20
> =20
> Thank you,
>=20
> Kathleen
>=20
> =20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> =20
> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran =
across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a =
peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking the =
IP Address to your computer?" =20
>=20
> I replied, "I don't know, how?"=20
>=20
> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is =
connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>=20
> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder =
searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or =
let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to =
communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.  =
The device used to communicate has been captured by the great minds of =
the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize reverse =
engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their pride comes =
before a fall when seeking the location of other similar devices to =
attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that makes the device =
function properly, saves the day by disguise or cutting it off =
(figuratively speaking).
>=20
> Just a visionary thought.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> http://biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM
>=20
> UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a =
temporal Id?
>=20
> Yours Faithfully,
>=20
> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
> SilentCircle  dsm
> 07710 380044
> david.misell@bcs.org
>=20
>=20
> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> > Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way =
was closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, =
"consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in =
some instances."
> >=20
> > However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it =
would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study =
this Security Art Form in a negative way.
> >=20
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >=20
> >=20
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >=20
> > Re: [mile] IOCs
> >=20
> > Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> > From:
> > "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> > To:
> > "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> > I would like to look at this from a slightly different =
perspective=8Alet's
> > say I get an XML document that tells me about an incident.  This =
document
> > has source IP and destination IP that is being shared.  However, =
what I
> > don't know is which IP address is my indicator and which is just a
> > contextual piece of information.  This means that my detection =
product
> > isn't going to know which one to use either, because there is =
nothing to
> > tell me which IP is the one, even if the roles are set it still =
might not
> > be enough to tell my system which one I should use as the indicator.
> >=20
> > If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would =
allow us
> > to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to =
being
> > biased as I have spent much of my career working on the monitoring =
and
> > detection side of these things, so I am just thinking of ways to =
make it
> > very clear what the indicators are in the XML document and the other =
data
> > that may be important as I investigate activity that I have detected =
off
> > of those indicators.
> >=20
> >=20
> > I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more =
flexibility
> > with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't considered is the =
UID
> > portion of this=8Ahow do we use that UID?  How is the UID created?  =
Are
> > there standards for UIDs?
> >=20
> > Regards,
> >=20
> > Paul
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> > SMC Lead Content Architect
> > RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> > cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> >=20
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
> >=20
> > From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Cc: mile@ietf.org
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
> >=20
> > Greetings Kathleen,
> >=20
> > Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the =
many avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you =
share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
> >=20
> > =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------
> > "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now =
in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI."
> >=20
> > =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------------------------
> >=20
> > You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I =
wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it =
from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree =
what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >=20
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >=20
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> =
wrote:
> >=20
> > From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org" =
<mile@ietf.org>
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
> >=20
> > Hello C. Henry & others,
> >=20
> > Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in =
this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be =
more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
> >=20
> > The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for =
non-XML extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific =
to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand =
more about the included data in most cases. =20
> >=20
> > The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the =
included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on =
the report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData =
extension point. =20
> >=20
> > Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think =
that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft =
in the Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or =
AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could either =
have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that are =
non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes =
according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
> >=20
> > As for my question, it was two-fold.
> >=20
> > Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the =
various indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other =
schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to =
add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be =
indicators?  Is this enough to make the connections or is something else =
else needed?  We could add something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis =
which would then correlate to the reference or GUID identifiers.
> >=20
> > Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are =
not in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" =
"or" to specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to =
group these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit =
logically in multiple places if the relationships did not need to be =
shown in the data format.  If we have cases like this where you need =
more complex representations, should we use one extension point via the =
SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension point?  =
Opinions are needed here....=20
> >=20
> > A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared =
indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all class =
that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we =
could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF =
and then have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I =
think I like the latter approach.
> >=20
> > Thank you,
> > Kathleen
> > ________________________________________
> > From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C. =
Henry Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> > To: mile@ietf.org
> > Cc: C. Henry Adams
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >=20
> > Greetings Everyone,
> >=20
> > Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> > =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------
> > 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning =
of
> > information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the =
SCI's
> > EventReport class, IMHO.
> >=20
> > 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it =
could be
> > conveyed without using SCI draft.
> > For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey =
the
> > indicators.
> > We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact =
class, if
> > needed.
> > =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------
> >=20
> > In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
> >=20
> > Whereas, Kathleen stated,
> >=20
> > =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------
> > For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with =
relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so =
that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be =
better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
> >=20
> > Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> > =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------
> >=20
> > Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the =
EventData Class.
> >=20
> > Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass =
combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify =
this issue?
> >=20
> >=20
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >=20
> >=20
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> > _______________________________________________
> > mile mailing list
> > mile@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>=20
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile


From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com  Mon Feb  4 10:35:30 2013
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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:34:51 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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Others on the list, please chime in to help on this issue and the possible =
solutions (agreement or disagreement on approaches).

Paul & others, if we have an indicator group id, (let's say indicator_set_i=
d)  and an indicator unique id (indicator_uid), we might use the indicator_=
set_id to mark a set and connect a set within an IODEF document as well as =
between other XML documents.  If we do that, then is the indicator_uid help=
ful?  I think it could be if we use that to mark where the indicator origin=
ated in some way that we also know how it can be used and if it can be shar=
ed forward marked at an indicator level (in addition to the sharing group i=
n RID for the whole document or set of documents shared).

What would this look like?

How about the following where you use the set marker at class level for eac=
h of the classes that includes indicators or important context on those ind=
icators:

   +------------------+
   | EventData        |
   +------------------+
   | ENUM restriction |<>--{0..*}--[ Description    ]
   |                  |<>--{0..1}--[ DetectTime     ]
   |                  |<>--{0..1}--[ StartTime      ]
   |                  |<>--{0..1}--[ EndTime        ]
   |                  |<>--{0..*}--[ Contact        ]
   |                  |<>--{0..1}--[ Assessment     ]
   |                  |<>--{0..*}--[ Method         ]
   |                  |<>--{0..*}--[ Flow           ]
   |                  |<>--{0..*}--[ Expectation    ]
   |                  |<>--{0..1}--[ Record         ]
   |                  |<>--{0..*}--[ EventData      ]
   |                  |<>--{0..*}--[ AdditionalData ]
   +------------------+

Since you could use the nested EventData instance to include the full set, =
you would need indicator_set_id as an attribute to the EventData class.  Th=
en Since you can have many of the classes from the above directly in the In=
cident class, the ones that contain indicators would also need the capabili=
ty to mark or connect a set of indicators.  That includes:

Method -> Reference (Set at the Reference class so you can tie References t=
o specific indicator sets if there are multiple).
Flow -> System  ( I think the set should start at the System class level, m=
aybe at the Flow too),
                the node should be kept to a single Node that may be repres=
ented in many ways, but
                 I think we should add categories to System so we can have =
a watchlist at that level
                without needing many instances of EventData (thoughts)?  Th=
is would just work
                when the Service and OperatingSystem information matched ac=
ross the watchlist
                or when that data was omitted.
Record -> RecordData (at the RecordData class, where we may add Registry Ke=
y/value pairs and file hashes)

Context: Contact, Expectation, DetectTime, StartTime, and EndTime

By having this at the Assessment and Expectation classes, you can set the r=
ecommended actions and confidence levels at the indicator set level.  You c=
ould alternatively do this by adding more attributes to the individual indi=
cator element/classes.

Then the Node, Address, NodeName, Application, other added indicators (regi=
stry key/value pairs, hashes, etc.)  would need the indicator_uid (if this =
is helpful).


As Paul mentioned, you could have groupings in a new class, but we would ne=
ed to be able to include all the types of indicators, so it may be complex =
to have more representation options for the same types of indicators.  Woul=
d the above build in the additional flexibility that is needed or what woul=
d the proposed Detection class look like in case it is a better option?

Thanks!
Kathleen

From: Stoecker, Paul
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?  This wou=
ld allow you to group indicators that are related into the same group ID.  =
Would this resolve the issue?

It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators) class=
 that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them into one p=
lace and have the ability to group the ones that go together.  I don't mean=
 a place to put indicators that are missing from IODEF...I mean a place in =
the IODEF document where you put the indicators that are used for detection=
 and prevention of the shared Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but =
there has got to be a good way for indicators to be identified and being ab=
le to group them as Chris has suggested without basically recreating someth=
ing complicated like STIX.

Paul


Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com<mailto:paul.stoecker@rsa.com>


From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<mailto:kathleen.moria=
rty@emc.com>>
Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com<mailto:Christ=
opher.Harrington@emc.com>>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Hi Chris,

I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.

The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to the de=
finitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including indicators an=
d sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to 'parts of an incident =
or the useful information on an incident for sharing purposes.  It was writ=
ten before we used terms like indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella propo=
sed a number of changes back in July, both for guidance and for format upda=
tes.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least some of t=
hese issues so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed s=
olution.

As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between sets of =
indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that could have a re=
lationship to each other within a document.  In the July presentation, one =
of the questions was to see if we should add new category attribute values =
for the System class that would connect the list of included indicators.  I=
 think we should still keep the concept of a Node to a single node, but per=
haps within System, list multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of att=
ack.  Rosella had suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, t=
his would help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an Attac=
kType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader ter=
m).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute values like "C=
2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added context so you know=
 what to do with the received set of indicators.

I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of indicators,=
 add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect indi=
cators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of indicator_u=
id (or some other name) with a string value to make the connection points, =
and add a few indicators that are commonly shared into the base IODEF.

Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and hashes to=
 the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help Chris below).  Wh=
at if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a class off of RecordData, u=
sing a similar structure to what is in RFC5901, and also added the ability =
to include hashes in RecordData?  I think if we then had the indicator_uid =
at the RecordData level, we could connect a set within that structure and r=
epeat the structure for other sets in the same way we would do with Node in=
side of the System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together. =
 Then at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc.=
 use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Mayb=
e we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions on thi=
s approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas that may =
work better.

We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent forward sh=
aring when not permitted.  We may want to use these values or something els=
e.

Thank you!
Kathleen

From: Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the Watchli=
st Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In that message=
 we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show are related:

Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same threat:
The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the file uses.=
 Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.

Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same threat:
2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either value is p=
resent it is a compromise indicator but both will not be present.

The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where both=
 groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that logical g=
roupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send multiple IODEF me=
ssages for this from what I remember reading.

The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different indicators t=
hat represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to send both the MD5 an=
d SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the IOCs are=
 the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use a unique Ini=
dcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher level grouping.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

--Chris

Christopher Harrington
Consulting Security Engineer
GSO - Critical Incident Response Center
EMC - Where Information Lives
174 Middlesex Turnpike
Bedford, MA 01730
781-515-5862 (work)
603-583-1585 (cell)

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-boun=
ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

All -

I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from the li=
st on options to help solve the problems raised in my message and additiona=
lly in Paul's message.

Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine automat=
ed exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation to achieve t=
he necessary level of confidentiality.

Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from contex=
t information that may also include IP address or other data that could be =
indicators.  The question I raised was on how to connect sets of indicators=
 in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to have watchlists that c=
ould have several sets of indicators included, as well as to connect indica=
tors that may be included in embedded schemas.

If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say 'indica=
tor-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to mark who sent th=
e indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing when it is not p=
ermitted or handle that separately?

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit into a=
 category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of SCI or ri=
ght off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this in my first =
message).

Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical solutio=
n to have this machine automatable.

Thank you,
Kathleen

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-boun=
ces@ietf.org]<mailto:[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org]> On Behalf Of C. Henry =
Adams & BIE
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran across=
 this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a peculiar questi=
on.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking the IP Address to you=
r computer?"

I replied, "I don't know, how?"

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is connect=
ed- which is constantly on!"   LOL

Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder search=
ing a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or let's just=
 say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to communication back to=
 other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.  The device used to comm=
unicate has been captured by the great minds of the enemy.  It's only a mat=
ter of time before they utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it fu=
nctions.  However, their pride comes before a fall when seeking the locatio=
n of other similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of con=
cepts that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or=
 cutting it off (figuratively speaking).

Just a visionary thought.

C. Henry Adams
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com>
http://biemediagroup.com


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original r=
ecipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the r=
ecipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further disseminat=
ion, whether private or public is prohibited.

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org<mailto:david.misell@=
bcs.org>> wrote:

From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org<mailto:david.misell@bcs.org>>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.=
com>>
Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM
UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temp=
oral Id?

Yours Faithfully,

Dave Misell MSc CISSP
SilentCircle  dsm
07710 380044
david.misell@bcs.org</mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org>


On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/c=
ompose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>> wrote:

> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way was cl=
osely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, "consider to a =
degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances."
>
> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it would =
be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this Secu=
rity Art Form in a negative way.
>
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Ema=
il)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.=
com>
>
>
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original=
 recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the=
 recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemin=
ation, whether private or public is prohibited.
>
> Re: [mile] IOCs
>
> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> From:
> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rs=
a.com>>
> To:
> "mile@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>" <mile@ietf.org</mc/compos=
e?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>>
> I would like to look at this from a slightly different perspective=A9let'=
s
> say I get an XML document that tells me about an incident.  This document
> has source IP and destination IP that is being shared.  However, what I
> don't know is which IP address is my indicator and which is just a
> contextual piece of information.  This means that my detection product
> isn't going to know which one to use either, because there is nothing to
> tell me which IP is the one, even if the roles are set it still might not
> be enough to tell my system which one I should use as the indicator.
>
> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow us
> to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to being
> biased as I have spent much of my career working on the monitoring and
> detection side of these things, so I am just thinking of ways to make it
> very clear what the indicators are in the XML document and the other data
> that may be important as I investigate activity that I have detected off
> of those indicators.
>
>
> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more flexibilit=
y
> with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't considered is the UID
> portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How is the UID created?  Are
> there standards for UIDs?
>
> Regards,
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com</mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoec=
ker@rsa.com>
>
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/comp=
ose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchatlg=
a2000@yahoo.com>>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</mc/compose?to=3Dkathle=
en.moriarty@emc.com>>
> Cc: mile@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>
> Greetings Kathleen,
>
> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the many a=
venues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you share a =
few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------
> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IOD=
EF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI."
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------
>
> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I wanted t=
o protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your log=
ical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what appears to be=
 illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>
>
>
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Ema=
il)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.=
com>
>
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original=
 recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the=
 recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemin=
ation, whether private or public is prohibited.
>
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</mc/co=
mpose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>> wrote:
>
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</mc/compose?to=3Dkath=
leen.moriarty@emc.com>>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchatlg=
a2000@yahoo.com>>, "mile@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>" <mile@ie=
tf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>>
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>
> Hello C. Henry & others,
>
> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in this e=
mail thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more once RF=
C5070-bis is actively edited).
>
> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for non-XML =
extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the logic=
al grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more about the inc=
luded data in most cases.
>
> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the includ=
ed data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on the repor=
t as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level higher (at t=
he moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData extension point=
.
>
> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think that =
would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in the M=
ethod class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or AdditionalData do al=
low for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft handle=
 these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come directly off th=
e AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes sense from a=
 logical standpoint.
>
> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>
> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the various=
 indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas that in=
clude such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an attribute to=
 the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this enough to=
 make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could add somet=
hing like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the =
reference or GUID identifiers.
>
> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not in =
the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" to spe=
cify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group these indict=
ors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in multiple places=
 if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data format.  If we h=
ave cases like this where you need more complex representations, should we =
use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData class Additi=
onalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....
>
> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared indic=
tors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all class that do=
es this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we could conti=
nue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and then have =
the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I like the la=
tter approach.
>
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> ________________________________________
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> [mile=
-bounces@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of C. =
Henry Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo=
.com>]
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> To: mile@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>
> Cc: C. Henry Adams
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>
> Greetings Everyone,
>
> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------
> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the SCI's
> EventReport class, IMHO.
>
> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it could=
 be
> conveyed without using SCI draft.
> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey the
> indicators.
> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact class, =
if
> needed.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------
>
> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>
> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------
> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with relati=
onships that may be included in a single extension point, so that's why I w=
as thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better locations or=
 a specific area within the EventData.
>
> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------
>
> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the EventDa=
ta Class.
>
> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass combini=
ng the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify this issue?
>
>
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Ema=
il)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.=
com>
>
>
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original=
 recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the=
 recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemin=
ation, whether private or public is prohibited.
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org</mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile



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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Others on=
 the list, please chime in to help on this issue and the possible solutions=
 (agreement or disagreement on approaches).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Paul &amp; others, if we have an indicator group id, (let&#8217;s say indi=
cator_set_id) =A0and an indicator unique id (indicator_uid), we might use t=
he indicator_set_id to mark a set and connect a set within an IODEF documen=
t as well as between other XML documents.=A0 If we do that, then is the ind=
icator_uid helpful?=A0 I think it could be if we use that to mark where the=
 indicator originated in some way that we also know how it can be used and =
if it can be shared forward marked at an indicator level (in addition to th=
e sharing group in RID for the whole document or set of documents shared).<=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>What would this look like?<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'>How about the following where you use the set marker at class l=
evel for each of the classes that includes indicators or important context =
on those indicators:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Courier New"'>=A0=A0 +------------------+<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courie=
r New"'>=A0=A0 | EventData=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'=
>=A0=A0 +------------------+<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>=A0=A0 | ENUM restri=
ction |&lt;&gt;--{0..*}--[ Description=A0=A0=A0 ]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'=
>=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |&lt;&gt;--{0.=
.1}--[ DetectTime=A0=A0=A0=A0 ]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |&lt;&gt;--{0..1}--[ StartTime=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |&lt;&gt;--{0..1}--[ EndTime=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0 ]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0|&lt;&gt;--{0..*}--[ Contact=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ]<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Courier New"'>=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0 |&lt;&gt;--{0..1}--[ Assessment=A0=A0=A0=A0 ]<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier=
 New"'>=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |&lt;&gt=
;--{0..*}--[ Method=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>=A0=
=A0 |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |&lt;&gt;--{0..*}-=
-[ Flow=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>=A0=A0 |=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |&lt;&gt;--{0..*}--[ Ex=
pectation=A0=A0=A0 ]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>=A0 =A0|=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |&lt;&gt;--{0..1}--[ Record=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0 ]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |&lt;&gt;--{0..*}--[ EventData=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ]=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Courier New"'>=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0 |&lt;&gt;--{0..*}--[ AdditionalData ]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"=
'>=A0=A0 +------------------+<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F49=
7D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Since you could=
 use the nested EventData instance to include the full set, you would need =
indicator_set_id as an attribute to the EventData class.=A0 Then Since you =
can have many of the classes from the above directly in the Incident class,=
 the ones that contain indicators would also need the capability to mark or=
 connect a set of indicators.=A0 That includes:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Method -&gt; Reference (Set at the Reference class so you can tie Refere=
nces to specific indicator sets if there are multiple).<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Flow -&gt; System=A0 ( I think the set should=
 start at the System class level, maybe at the Flow too), <o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0the node should be kept to a single Node that may be represented in m=
any ways, but<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0I think we should add categories to Sy=
stem so we can have a watchlist at that level<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0without n=
eeding many instances of EventData (thoughts)?=A0 This would just work<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 when the Service and OperatingSystem information matched ac=
ross the watchlist<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 or when that data was omitted.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Record -&gt; RecordData (at th=
e RecordData class, where we may add Registry Key/value pairs and file hash=
es)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Context: Contact, Expectation, DetectTime=
, StartTime, and EndTime<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>By having this at th=
e Assessment and Expectation classes, you can set the recommended actions a=
nd confidence levels at the indicator set level.=A0 You could alternatively=
 do this by adding more attributes to the individual indicator element/clas=
ses.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Then the Node, Address, NodeName, Applic=
ation, other added indicators (registry key/value pairs, hashes, etc.) =A0w=
ould need the indicator_uid (if this is helpful).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4=
97D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As Paul mentio=
ned, you could have groupings in a new class, but we would need to be able =
to include all the types of indicators, so it may be complex to have more r=
epresentation options for the same types of indicators.=A0 Would the above =
build in the additional flexibility that is needed or what would the propos=
ed Detection class look like in case it is a better option?<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'>Thanks!<br>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-=
top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</s=
pan></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>=
 Stoecker, Paul <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM<br><b>To=
:</b> Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:=
</b> Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>What if we added i=
ndicator group ID along with the indicator_uid? &nbsp;This would allow you =
to group indicators that are related into the same group ID. &nbsp;Would th=
is resolve the issue?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:bl=
ack'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>It is=
 either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators) class that=
 will should be used to take all of the indicators put them into one place =
and have the ability to group the ones that go together. &nbsp;I don't mean=
 a place to put indicators that are missing from IODEF&#8230;I mean a place=
 in the IODEF document where you put the indicators that are used for detec=
tion and prevention of the shared Incident. &nbsp;I don't know the answer h=
ere, but there has got to be a good way for indicators to be identified and=
 being able to group them as Chris has suggested without basically recreati=
ng something complicated like STIX.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo=
r:black'>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top=
-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white'><b><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Paul W. Stoe=
cker, Ph.D.</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-mar=
gin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:navy'>SMC Lead Content Architect</span>=
<span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;ba=
ckground:white'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","s=
ans-serif";color:red'>RSA, The Security Division of EMC</span></b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:=
white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";c=
olor:navy'>cell: 302.379.3375 | e:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:paul.stoecker@rsa=
.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a></span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color=
:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B=
5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From: =
</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-seri=
f";color:black'>&lt;Moriarty&gt;, Kathleen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.m=
oriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Sunday, =
February 3, 2013 5:11 PM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;Harrington, Christopher&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com">Christopher.Harringto=
n@emc.com</a>&gt;, MILE IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf=
.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Chris,</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'=
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I agree, we =
have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.</span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>The list has already said they would like to see indicators added t=
o the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including indic=
ators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to &#8216;parts o=
f an incident or the useful information on an incident for sharing purposes=
.&nbsp; It was written before we used terms like indicators.&nbsp; With tha=
t in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes back in July, both for guid=
ance and for format updates.&nbsp; It may help to have the first draft try =
to address at least some of these issues so people can understand the probl=
ems and at least a proposed solution.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'=
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As you point=
 out, we need to be able to show relationships between sets of indicators, =
where we may have a few sets of indicators that could have a relationship t=
o each other within a document.&nbsp; In the July presentation, one of the =
questions was to see if we should add new category attribute values for the=
 System class that would connect the list of included indicators.&nbsp; I t=
hink we should still keep the concept of a Node to a single node, but perha=
ps within System, list multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attac=
k.&nbsp; Rosella had suggested pulling forward the &#8220;FraudType&#8221; =
from RFC5901, this would help solve the issue as NodeRole values would comp=
liment an AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or s=
ome broader term).&nbsp; It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attr=
ibute values like &#8220;C2-server&#8221;, &#8220;sinkhole&#8221;,&nbsp; &#=
8220;MalwareDistribution&#8221; for added context so you know what to do wi=
th the received set of indicators.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'col=
or:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am proposing =
that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of indicators, add an AttackT=
ype attribute (or some other name), a method to connect indicators and indi=
cator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of indicator_uid (or some oth=
er name) with a string value to make the connection points, and add a few i=
ndicators that are commonly shared into the base IODEF.</span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and h=
ashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help Chris bel=
ow).&nbsp; What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a class off of =
RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in RFC5901, and also added=
 the ability to include hashes in RecordData?&nbsp; I think if we then had =
the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we could connect a set within th=
at structure and repeat the structure for other sets in the same way we wou=
ld do with Node inside of the System class, using the indicator_uid to tie =
the set together.&nbsp; Then at the more specific level for the hash, regis=
try Key/value, IP, etc. use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at th=
is level as well?&nbsp; Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?&nb=
sp; I&#8217;d like some opinions on this approach.&nbsp; +1 if you agree, s=
uggestions if you have other ideas that may work better.</span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>We&#8217;ll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prev=
ent forward sharing when not permitted.&nbsp; We may want to use these valu=
es or something else.&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:bla=
ck'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thank you!<br>Kathlee=
n&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;paddi=
ng:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Harr=
ington, Christopher <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM<br>=
<b>To:</b> Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [mile] IOCs=
</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'>I think we have a bigger relationship issue to addr=
ess. Let use the Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one =
message. In that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need=
 to show are related:</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Two or more indicators of di=
fferent type that relate to the same threat:</span><span style=3D'color:bla=
ck'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><=
span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D'>The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the file=
 uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise. </span><span=
 style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&n=
bsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:#1F497D'>Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the sa=
me threat: </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>2 different registry values=
 for the same registry key. If either value is present it is a compromise i=
ndicator but both will not be present. </span><span style=3D'color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The prob=
lem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where both groupin=
gs above are part of the same threat. I need to show that logical groupings=
 of Indicators are related as well. We can&#8217;t send multiple IODEF mess=
ages for this from what I remember reading. </span><span style=3D'color:bla=
ck'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The =
last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different indicators that =
represent the same indicator. It&#8217;s not uncommon to send both the MD5 =
and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the IOCs a=
re the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use a unique I=
nidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher level grouping. =
</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:#1F497D'>Thoughts?</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks,</span><span style=3D'color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>--Chris<=
/span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif";color:#1F497D'>Christopher Harrington</span><span style=3D'color:=
black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Consulting Securit=
y Engineer</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>GSO - Critical Incident Response Center</span><span sty=
le=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>EMC =
- Where Information Lives</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>174 Middlesex Turnpike</span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Bedford,=
 MA 01730</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>781-515-5862 (work)</span><span style=3D'color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>603-583-1585 (cell)</span>=
<span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><di=
v><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href=3D"mail=
to:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:mile=
-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mo=
riarty, Kathleen<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM<br><b>T=
o:</b> MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] IOCs</span><span style=3D'co=
lor:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>=
All &#8211; </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;d like your input and will re=
focus the thread to get opinions from the list on options to help solve the=
 problems raised in my message and additionally in Paul&#8217;s message.</s=
pan><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1=
F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'>Interesting point, C. Henry.&nbsp; Our objective her=
e is to have machine automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather t=
han obfuscation to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.</span><s=
pan style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:#1F497D'>Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compr=
omise from context information that may also include IP address or other da=
ta that could be indicators.&nbsp; The question I raised was on how to conn=
ect sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to =
have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included, as wel=
l as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded schemas.</span>=
<span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicator=
s, let&#8217;s say &#8216;indicator-uid&#8217; how do we mark the indicator=
s?&nbsp; Do we use this to mark who sent the indicator as well so that we c=
an prevent forward sharing when it is not permitted or handle that separate=
ly?&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Then for indicators not included in the=
 base schema that may not fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we creat=
e a place for these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData=
? (more details on this in my first message).</span><span style=3D'color:bl=
ack'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span s=
tyle=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Comm=
ents and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical solution to=
 have this machine automatable.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:=
black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thank you,</span><=
span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D=
'>Kathleen</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.=
0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href=
=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"mail=
to:[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org]</a> <b>On=
 Behalf Of </b>C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 28,=
 2013 11:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] IOCs</=
span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><table class=
=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=
=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Temporal Depe=
ndency sounds interesting.&nbsp; I remember when I first ran across this pa=
rticular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a peculiar question.&nbsp=
; He said, &quot; How do you stop someone from tracking the IP Address to y=
our computer?&quot;&nbsp; <br><br>I replied, &quot;I don't know, how?&quot;=
 <br><br>Then he said, &quot;Cut the dog-gone thing off&nbsp; and the modem=
 that it is connected- which is constantly on!&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; LOL<br><br=
>Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :&nbsp; There is a 1st Responder =
searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or let'=
s just say &quot;Live&quot; Terrorist Situation.&nbsp; He /or She needs to =
communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.&nbs=
p; The device used to communicate has been captured by the great minds of t=
he enemy.&nbsp; It's only a matter of time before they utilize reverse engi=
neering to figure out how it functions.&nbsp; However, their pride comes be=
fore a fall when seeking the location of other similar devices to attack.&n=
bsp; Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that makes the device functi=
on properly, saves the day by disguise or cutting it off (figuratively spea=
king).<br><br>Just a visionary thought.<br><br>C. Henry Adams<br><a href=3D=
"mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br=
><a href=3D"http://biemediagroup.com">http://biemediagroup.com</a><br><br><=
br>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the origina=
l recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within th=
e recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemi=
nation, whether private or public is prohibited.<br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 1/28=
/13, Dave Misell <i>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.misell@bcs.org">david.misel=
l@bcs.org</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>From: Dave Misell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david=
.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;<br>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<b=
r>To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chatlga200=
0@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>Date: Monday, January 28, 201=
3, 9:25 PM<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:1=
2.0pt'>UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with=
 a temporal Id?<br><br>Yours Faithfully,<br><br>Dave Misell MSc CISSP<br>Si=
lentCircle&nbsp; dsm<br>07710 380044<br><a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.m=
isell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a><br><br><br>On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39=
, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yaho=
o.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt; Serialization of a =
particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way was closely related to what=
 I attempted to express when I stated, &quot;consider to a degree what appe=
ars to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.&quot;<br>&gt; <br=
>&gt; However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.&nbsp; However, =
it would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study =
this Security Art Form in a negative way.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry Adams<b=
r>&gt; <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo=
.com</a> (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@bie=
mediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;=
 The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original =
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the =
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemina=
tion, whether private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Re: [mile] =
IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM<br>&gt; From:<br>&gt=
; &quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@=
rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; To:<br>&gt; &quot;<a href=3D=
"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"/mc=
/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; I would like to =
look at this from a slightly different perspective=A9let's<br>&gt; say I ge=
t an XML document that tells me about an incident.&nbsp; This document<br>&=
gt; has source IP and destination IP that is being shared.&nbsp; However, w=
hat I<br>&gt; don't know is which IP address is my indicator and which is j=
ust a<br>&gt; contextual piece of information.&nbsp; This means that my det=
ection product<br>&gt; isn't going to know which one to use either, because=
 there is nothing to<br>&gt; tell me which IP is the one, even if the roles=
 are set it still might not<br>&gt; be enough to tell my system which one I=
 should use as the indicator.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; If we had something like ind=
icator_id as an attribute, it would allow us<br>&gt; to easily identify ind=
icators from contextual data.&nbsp; I do admit to being<br>&gt; biased as I=
 have spent much of my career working on the monitoring and<br>&gt; detecti=
on side of these things, so I am just thinking of ways to make it<br>&gt; v=
ery clear what the indicators are in the XML document and the other data<br=
>&gt; that may be important as I investigate activity that I have detected =
off<br>&gt; of those indicators.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; I did suggest th=
e detection class, but I think we may get more flexibility<br>&gt; with the=
 indicator_uid.&nbsp; One thing that I haven't considered is the UID<br>&gt=
; portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?&nbsp; How is the UID created?&n=
bsp; Are<br>&gt; there standards for UIDs?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Regards,<br>&gt=
; <br>&gt; Paul<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<=
br>&gt; SMC Lead Content Architect<br>&gt; RSA, The Security Division of EM=
C<br>&gt; cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker=
@rsa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C=
. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.c=
om">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: C. Henry Ad=
ams &amp; BIE &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlg=
a2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: &quot;=
KathleenMoriarty&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@em=
c.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"/mc/compose=
?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Date: Saturday, January 26, =
2013, 6:17 PM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Greetings Kathleen,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Your lo=
gic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the many avenues yo=
u review with this approach at once.&nbsp; However,&nbsp; could you share a=
 few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; ---------=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------<br>&gt; &quot;we could continue to g=
roup items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and then have the exte=
nsion point for combined indicators via SCI.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; -------=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; You pointed out wh=
at you consider to be logical places, but if I wanted to protect informatio=
n from parties capable of ascertaining it from your logical places, perhaps=
 we should also consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilli=
ant minds in some instances.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry Ad=
ams<br>&gt; <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@=
yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadam=
s@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; The=
 information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original reci=
pient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the reci=
pient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination=
, whether private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Sat, 1/2=
6/13, Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: Mo=
riarty, Kathleen &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com"=
>kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;=
 To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dc=
hatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Date: Saturday, Januar=
y 26, 2013, 10:13 AM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hello C. Henry &amp; others,<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; Thanks for taking a look at this.&nbsp; We have a few consideratio=
ns in this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be =
more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The AdditionalD=
ata class and the RecordItem class both allow for non-XML extensions.&nbsp;=
 Where you place the extensions should be specific to the logical grouping =
of the parent elements so you can understand more about the included data i=
n most cases.&nbsp; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The Impact class can be used to provi=
de context information on the included data of the report and also can incl=
ude a confidence rating on the report as a whole.&nbsp; Extensions related =
to impact would be one level higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class=
 using the AdditionalData extension point.&nbsp; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Take ask=
ed about including vulnerability information, I would think that would fit =
under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in the Method clas=
s.&nbsp; He did ask about non-XML.&nbsp; RecordItem or AdditionalData do al=
low for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft handle=
 these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come directly off th=
e AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes sense from a=
 logical standpoint.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; As for my question, it was two-fold.<=
br>&gt; <br>&gt; Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID =
for the various indicators they share.&nbsp; If we are extending to embed o=
ther schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to=
 add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators=
?&nbsp; Is this enough to make the connections or is something else else ne=
eded?&nbsp; We could add something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis whic=
h would then correlate to the reference or GUID identifiers.<br>&gt; <br>&g=
t; Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not in=
 the base schema that may be related or have language with &quot;and&quot; =
&quot;or&quot; to specify the relationships.&nbsp; In some cases, you will =
want to group these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit lo=
gically in multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in=
 the data format.&nbsp; If we have cases like this where you need more comp=
lex representations, should we use one extension point via the SCI draft of=
f of the EventData class AdditionalData extension point?&nbsp; Opinions are=
 needed here.... <br>&gt; <br>&gt; A few people have mentioned wanting to i=
nclude some commonly shared indictors into the base IODEF document.&nbsp; W=
e could have a catch-all class that does this and has an extension point of=
f of it in EventData or we could continue to group items in logical places =
as is done now in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indi=
cators via SCI.&nbsp; I think I like the latter approach.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
Thank you,<br>&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt; _______________________________________=
_<br>&gt; From: <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [<a href=3D"/mc=
/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]<br>&gt; Sen=
t: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM<br>&gt; To: <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=
=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Cc: C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; Subj=
ect: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Greetings Everyone,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :<br>&gt; -------------=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------<br>&gt; 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based=
 alert/warning of<br>&gt; information leakage, it could be an event that ar=
e conveyed in the SCI's<br>&gt; EventReport class, IMHO.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; 2=
) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it could be=
<br>&gt; conveyed without using SCI draft.<br>&gt; For instance, we could u=
se Impact class of the base IODEF to convey the<br>&gt; indicators.<br>&gt;=
 We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact class, i=
f<br>&gt; needed.<br>&gt; -------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; In d=
oing so he pointed out the &quot;Impact Class&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Wherea=
s, Kathleen stated,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --------------------------------------=
---------------------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; For=
 the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with relationshi=
ps that may be included in a single extension point, so that's why I was th=
inking about the EventData class, but there may be better locations or a sp=
ecific area within the EventData.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul Stoecker had sugges=
ted a &quot;Detection&quot; class as a consideration.<br>&gt; -------------=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Kathleen thoughts related yet still with othe=
r indicators and the EventData Class.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Is there a possible =
way to create a new XML class which encompass combining the EventData, Dete=
ction and base IODEF classes to simplify this issue?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&=
gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.co=
m">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a href=3D"/mc/compose?=
to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&g=
t; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained herein is for the exclusive =
use of the original recipient. This information is granted for limited dist=
ribution within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes onl=
y. Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; mile mailing list<b=
r>&gt; <a href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;=
 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></td></tr=
></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></body></html>=

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--2053635335-963227600-1360004673=:90810
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Greetings All,

I was surprised to see the Digest late in the afternoon after replying back=
 to Eric & Kathleen's emails Monday and Sunday prospectively.

Furthermore, I'm little confused.=A0 Sunday Evening, Kathleen asked me to l=
eave out cyber security related discussions, but this morning Eric has chan=
ged the thread.

Great!=A0 I'm a believer in unorthodox approaches to solving problems, plea=
se allow us 24 to 48 hours to come up with a good scenario that fits.=A0 I =
was running out of the office when I saw the digest.

Thanks,

C. Henry Adams
=0Achatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
=0Achenryadams@biemediagroup.com
=0Ahttp://biemediagroup.com
=0A
=0AThe information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the origina=
l recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within th=
e recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemi=
nation, whether private or public is prohibited.
--2053635335-963227600-1360004673=:90810
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">Greetings All,<br><br>I was surprised to see =
the Digest late in the afternoon after replying back to Eric &amp; Kathleen=
's emails Monday and Sunday prospectively.<br><br>Furthermore, I'm little c=
onfused.&nbsp; Sunday Evening, Kathleen asked me to leave out cyber securit=
y related discussions, but this morning Eric has changed the thread.<br><br=
>Great!&nbsp; I'm a believer in unorthodox approaches to solving problems, =
please allow us 24 to 48 hours to come up with a good scenario that fits.&n=
bsp; I was running out of the office when I saw the digest.<br><br>Thanks,<=
br><br>C. Henry Adams<br>=0Achatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)<br>=0Achen=
ryadams@biemediagroup.com<br>=0Ahttp://biemediagroup.com<br>=0A<br>=0AThe i=
nformation contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original recipi=
ent. This information is granted for limited distribution within the recipi=
ent's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, =
whether private or public is prohibited.</td></tr></table>
--2053635335-963227600-1360004673=:90810--

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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 14:24:54 -0500
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Hi C. Henry,

Please do follow up on the new thread Eric started if you have attack vecto=
rs that we should be aware of on the MILE protocols.  My message to you was=
 to ensure you understood that RFC5070 explicitly does not worry about secu=
rity and leaves that up to RID and other protocol level exchange mechanisms=
.  Please do follow up on the new thread on attack vectors you see as possi=
ble with the MILE protocol documents and we'll keep the IOC thread progress=
ing so that we can set up methods to connect indicators within an IODEF doc=
ument and between other data formats.

Best regards,
Kathleen

From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 2:05 PM
To: mile@ietf.org
Cc: C. Henry Adams; Eric Burger; Moriarty, Kathleen
Subject: "MILE IETF" <mile@ietf.org>

Greetings All,

I was surprised to see the Digest late in the afternoon after replying back=
 to Eric & Kathleen's emails Monday and Sunday prospectively.

Furthermore, I'm little confused.  Sunday Evening, Kathleen asked me to lea=
ve out cyber security related discussions, but this morning Eric has change=
d the thread.

Great!  I'm a believer in unorthodox approaches to solving problems, please=
 allow us 24 to 48 hours to come up with a good scenario that fits.  I was =
running out of the office when I saw the digest.

Thanks,

C. Henry Adams
chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Email)
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com>
http://biemediagroup.com

The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original r=
ecipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the r=
ecipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further disseminat=
ion, whether private or public is prohibited.



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<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr=
osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:=
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi C. Hen=
ry,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Please do follow up on the new thread Eri=
c started if you have attack vectors that we should be aware of on the MILE=
 protocols.&nbsp; My message to you was to ensure you understood that RFC50=
70 explicitly does not worry about security and leaves that up to RID and o=
ther protocol level exchange mechanisms.&nbsp; Please do follow up on the n=
ew thread on attack vectors you see as possible with the MILE protocol docu=
ments and we&#8217;ll keep the IOC thread progressing so that we can set up=
 methods to connect indicators within an IODEF document and between other d=
ata formats.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-=
top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</s=
pan></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>=
 C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> M=
onday, February 04, 2013 2:05 PM<br><b>To:</b> mile@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> =
C. Henry Adams; Eric Burger; Moriarty, Kathleen<br><b>Subject:</b> &quot;MI=
LE IETF&quot; &lt;mile@ietf.org&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cell=
spacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0=
in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Greetings All,<br><br>I was surprised to see t=
he Digest late in the afternoon after replying back to Eric &amp; Kathleen'=
s emails Monday and Sunday prospectively.<br><br>Furthermore, I'm little co=
nfused.&nbsp; Sunday Evening, Kathleen asked me to leave out cyber security=
 related discussions, but this morning Eric has changed the thread.<br><br>=
Great!&nbsp; I'm a believer in unorthodox approaches to solving problems, p=
lease allow us 24 to 48 hours to come up with a good scenario that fits.&nb=
sp; I was running out of the office when I saw the digest.<br><br>Thanks,<b=
r><br>C. Henry Adams<br><a href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga200=
0@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)<br><a href=3D"mailto:chenryadams@biemediagro=
up.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br><a href=3D"http://biemediagrou=
p.com">http://biemediagroup.com</a><br><br>The information contained herein=
 is for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This information is gr=
anted for limited distribution within the recipient's place of business for=
 planning purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public i=
s prohibited.<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p></div></body></html>=

--_000_F5063677821E3B4F81ACFB7905573F24CE9E2A71MX15Acorpemccom_--

From Christopher.Harrington@emc.com  Mon Feb  4 11:25:38 2013
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From: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>
To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 14:25:10 -0500
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I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a logical =
and
/ or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If I give you 2
registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would have =
the
same group ID since they are related.=20

=20

Thanks,



--Chris

=20

From: Stoecker, Paul=20
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?  This
would allow you to group indicators that are related into the same group =
ID.
Would this resolve the issue?

=20

It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators) =
class
that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them into one
place and have the ability to group the ones that go together.  I don't =
mean
a place to put indicators that are missing from IODEF.I mean a place in =
the
IODEF document where you put the indicators that are used for detection =
and
prevention of the shared Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but =
there
has got to be a good way for indicators to be identified and being able =
to
group them as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
complicated like STIX.

=20

Paul

=20

=20

Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.

SMC Lead Content Architect

RSA, The Security Division of EMC

cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com

=20

=20

From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE =
IETF
<mile@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Hi Chris,

=20

I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.

=20

The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to the
definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including =
indicators
and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to 'parts of an =
incident
or the useful information on an incident for sharing purposes.  It was
written before we used terms like indicators.  With that in mind, =
Rosella
proposed a number of changes back in July, both for guidance and for =
format
updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least =
some
of these issues so people can understand the problems and at least a
proposed solution.

=20

As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between sets =
of
indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that could have a
relationship to each other within a document.  In the July presentation, =
one
of the questions was to see if we should add new category attribute =
values
for the System class that would connect the list of included indicators. =
 I
think we should still keep the concept of a Node to a single node, but
perhaps within System, list multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type =
of
attack.  Rosella had suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from =
RFC5901,
this would help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some =
broader
term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute values =
like
"C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added context so you
know what to do with the received set of indicators.

=20

I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of =
indicators,
add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect
indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of
indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared =
into
the base IODEF.

=20

Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and hashes =
to
the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help Chris below).  =
What
if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a class off of RecordData, =
using
a similar structure to what is in RFC5901, and also added the ability to
include hashes in RecordData?  I think if we then had the indicator_uid =
at
the RecordData level, we could connect a set within that structure and
repeat the structure for other sets in the same way we would do with =
Node
inside of the System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set =
together.
Then at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, =
etc.
use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  =
Maybe
we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions on =
this
approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas that may
work better.

=20

We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent forward
sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values or =
something
else. =20

=20

Thank you!
Kathleen =20

=20

From: Harrington, Christopher=20
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In =
that
message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show are
related:

=20

Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same threat:

The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the file =
uses.
Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.=20

=20

Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same threat:=20

2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either value =
is
present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be present.=20

=20

The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where =
both
groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that logical
groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send multiple =
IODEF
messages for this from what I remember reading.=20

=20

The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different =
indicators
that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to send both the =
MD5
and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the =
IOCs
are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use a =
unique
Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher level =
grouping.=20

=20

Thoughts?

=20

Thanks,

=20

--Chris

=20

Christopher Harrington

Consulting Security Engineer

GSO - Critical Incident Response Center

EMC - Where Information Lives

174 Middlesex Turnpike

Bedford, MA 01730

781-515-5862 (work)

603-583-1585 (cell)

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

All -=20

=20

I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from the
list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message and
additionally in Paul's message.

=20

Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation to
achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.

=20

Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from =
context
information that may also include IP address or other data that could be
indicators.  The question I raised was on how to connect sets of =
indicators
in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to have watchlists that
could have several sets of indicators included, as well as to connect
indicators that may be included in embedded schemas.

=20

If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to mark =
who
sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing when =
it is
not permitted or handle that separately? =20

=20

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit =
into a
category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of SCI or
right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this in my =
first
message).

=20

Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical =
solution
to have this machine automatable.

=20

Thank you,

Kathleen

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
C.
Henry Adams & BIE
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20


Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran =
across
this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a peculiar
question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking the IP =
Address
to your computer?" =20

I replied, "I don't know, how?"=20

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL

Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or =
let's
just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to communication =
back
to other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.  The device used to
communicate has been captured by the great minds of the enemy.  It's =
only a
matter of time before they utilize reverse engineering to figure out how =
it
functions.  However, their pride comes before a fall when seeking the
location of other similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less =
thought
of concepts that makes the device function properly, saves the day by
disguise or cutting it off (figuratively speaking).

Just a visionary thought.

C. Henry Adams
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
http://biemediagroup.com


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:


From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM

UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a
temporal Id?

Yours Faithfully,

Dave Misell MSc CISSP
SilentCircle  dsm
07710 380044
david.misell@bcs.org


On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way was
closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, "consider =
to a
degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some =
instances."
>=20
> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it =
would
be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this
Security Art Form in a negative way.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> From:
> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> To:
> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> I would like to look at this from a slightly different =
perspective=A9let's
> say I get an XML document that tells me about an incident.  This =
document
> has source IP and destination IP that is being shared.  However, what =
I
> don't know is which IP address is my indicator and which is just a
> contextual piece of information.  This means that my detection product
> isn't going to know which one to use either, because there is nothing =
to
> tell me which IP is the one, even if the roles are set it still might =
not
> be enough to tell my system which one I should use as the indicator.
>=20
> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow =
us
> to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to =
being
> biased as I have spent much of my career working on the monitoring and
> detection side of these things, so I am just thinking of ways to make =
it
> very clear what the indicators are in the XML document and the other =
data
> that may be important as I investigate activity that I have detected =
off
> of those indicators.
>=20
>=20
> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more =
flexibility
> with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't considered is the =
UID
> portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How is the UID created?  =
Are
> there standards for UIDs?
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Cc: mile@ietf.org
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>=20
> Greetings Kathleen,
>=20
> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the =
many
avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you =
share a
few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>=20
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
----------------------------------------------
> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI."
>=20
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
---------------------------------------------
>=20
> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I =
wanted to
protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what appears =
to
be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
<mile@ietf.org>
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>=20
> Hello C. Henry & others,
>=20
> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in =
this
email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more =
once
RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>=20
> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for =
non-XML
extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more about =
the
included data in most cases. =20
>=20
> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on =
the
report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher
(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData =
extension
point. =20
>=20
> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think =
that
would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in =
the
Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or AdditionalData =
do
allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft
handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come =
directly
off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes =
sense
from a logical standpoint.
>=20
> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>=20
> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the =
various
indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas that
include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an =
attribute
to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this =
enough
to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could add
something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate =
to
the reference or GUID identifiers.
>=20
> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not =
in
the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" to
specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group these
indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in =
multiple
places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data format. =
 If
we have cases like this where you need more complex representations, =
should
we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData class
AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....=20
>=20
> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all class
that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we =
could
continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and =
then
have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I =
like
the latter approach.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> ________________________________________
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C. =
Henry
Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> To: mile@ietf.org
> Cc: C. Henry Adams
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Greetings Everyone,
>=20
> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
--------------------------
> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the =
SCI's
> EventReport class, IMHO.
>=20
> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it =
could
be
> conveyed without using SCI draft.
> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey =
the
> indicators.
> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact =
class,
if
> needed.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
--------------------------
>=20
> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>=20
> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>=20
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
-------------------------
> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so =
that's
why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>=20
> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
------------------------
>=20
> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
EventData Class.
>=20
> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify =
this
issue?
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

=20


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a =
logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If I =
give you 2 registry keys do they both have to be present to be an =
indication of compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? =
Both would have the same group ID since they are related. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks,<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>--Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Stoecker, Paul <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE =
IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid? =
&nbsp;This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the =
same group ID. &nbsp;Would this resolve the =
issue?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators) =
class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them =
into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go together. =
&nbsp;I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing from =
IODEF&#8230;I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the =
indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared =
Incident. &nbsp;I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a =
good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them as =
Chris has suggested without basically recreating something complicated =
like STIX.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:wh=
ite'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:wh=
ite'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:navy'>=
SMC Lead Content Architect</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:wh=
ite'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:red'>R=
SA, The Security Division of EMC</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:wh=
ite'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:navy'>=
cell: 302.379.3375 | e:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a></span><sp=
an =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>From: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>&lt;Moriarty&gt;, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&g=
t;<br><b>Date: </b>Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM<br><b>To: =
</b>&quot;Harrington, Christopher&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com">Christopher.Harrington@emc=
.com</a>&gt;, MILE IETF &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: =
</b>Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi Chris,</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, =
RFC5070-bis.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to =
the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including =
indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to =
&#8216;parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for =
sharing purposes.&nbsp; It was written before we used terms like =
indicators.&nbsp; With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of =
changes back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.&nbsp; It =
may help to have the first draft try to address at least some of these =
issues so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed =
solution.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between =
sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that =
could have a relationship to each other within a document.&nbsp; In the =
July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add new =
category attribute values for the System class that would connect the =
list of included indicators.&nbsp; I think we should still keep the =
concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list =
multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.&nbsp; Rosella had =
suggested pulling forward the &#8220;FraudType&#8221; from RFC5901, this =
would help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an =
AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some =
broader term).&nbsp; It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus =
attribute values like &#8220;C2-server&#8221;, =
&#8220;sinkhole&#8221;,&nbsp; &#8220;MalwareDistribution&#8221; for =
added context so you know what to do with the received set of =
indicators.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of =
indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method =
to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an =
attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to =
make the connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly =
shared into the base IODEF.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and =
hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help Chris =
below).&nbsp; What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a class =
off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in RFC5901, and =
also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?&nbsp; I think if =
we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we could connect =
a set within that structure and repeat the structure for other sets in =
the same way we would do with Node inside of the System class, using the =
indicator_uid to tie the set together.&nbsp; Then at the more specific =
level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an indicator_uid if =
we needed them marked at this level as well?&nbsp; Maybe we want =
indicator_set at the higher level?&nbsp; I&#8217;d like some opinions on =
this approach.&nbsp; +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other =
ideas that may work better.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>We&#8217;ll also need to worry about marking the indicators to =
prevent forward sharing when not permitted.&nbsp; We may want to use =
these values or something else.&nbsp; </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thank you!<br>Kathleen&nbsp; </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
 Harrington, Christopher <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 01, 2013 =
12:01 PM<br><b>To:</b> Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> =
RE: [mile] IOCs</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the =
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In =
that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show =
are related:</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same =
threat:</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the file =
uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise. =
</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same =
threat: </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either =
value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be =
present. </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario =
where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show =
that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can&#8217;t =
send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading. =
</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different =
indicators that represent the same indicator. It&#8217;s not uncommon to =
send both the MD5 and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is =
the file but the IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are =
related? If we use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs =
to be a higher level grouping. </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thoughts?</spa=
n><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><=
span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks,</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>--Chris</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Christopher Harrington</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Consulting Security Engineer</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>GSO - Critical Incident Response Center</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>EMC - Where Information Lives</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>174 Middlesex Turnpike</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Bedford, MA 01730</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>781-515-5862 (work)</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>603-583-1585 (cell)</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
 <a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Moriarty, Kathleen<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February =
01, 2013 11:28 AM<br><b>To:</b> MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] =
IOCs</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>All &#8211; </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I&#8217;d like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions =
from the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message =
and additionally in Paul&#8217;s message.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Interesting point, C. Henry.&nbsp; Our objective here is to have =
machine automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than =
obfuscation to achieve the necessary level of =
confidentiality.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from =
context information that may also include IP address or other data that =
could be indicators.&nbsp; The question I raised was on how to connect =
sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to =
have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included, as =
well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded =
schemas.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let&#8217;s =
say &#8216;indicator-uid&#8217; how do we mark the indicators?&nbsp; Do =
we use this to mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can =
prevent forward sharing when it is not permitted or handle that =
separately?&nbsp; </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit =
into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of =
SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this =
in my first message).</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical =
solution to have this machine automatable.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thank you,</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Kathleen</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
 <a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.=
org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE<br><b>Sent:</b> =
Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> MILE =
IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] IOCs</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in =
0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp; =
I remember when I first ran across this particular craft, an experienced =
colleague asked me a peculiar question.&nbsp; He said, &quot; How do you =
stop someone from tracking the IP Address to your computer?&quot;&nbsp; =
<br><br>I replied, &quot;I don't know, how?&quot; <br><br>Then he said, =
&quot;Cut the dog-gone thing off&nbsp; and the modem that it is =
connected- which is constantly on!&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; LOL<br><br>Here's =
my point (Hypothetical Situation) :&nbsp; There is a 1st Responder =
searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or =
let's just say &quot;Live&quot; Terrorist Situation.&nbsp; He /or She =
needs to communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in =
Danger.&nbsp; The device used to communicate has been captured by the =
great minds of the enemy.&nbsp; It's only a matter of time before they =
utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.&nbsp; =
However, their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of =
other similar devices to attack.&nbsp; Why? Perhaps the less thought of =
concepts that makes the device function properly, saves the day by =
disguise or cutting it off (figuratively speaking).<br><br>Just a =
visionary thought.<br><br>C. Henry Adams<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.c=
om</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://biemediagroup.com">http://biemediagroup.com</a><br><br><br=
>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is =
prohibited.<br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <i>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;</i></b>=
 wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>From: Dave Misell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;<br>Subj=
ect: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>Da=
te: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>UID could be mirrored =
with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal =
Id?<br><br>Yours Faithfully,<br><br>Dave Misell MSc =
CISSP<br>SilentCircle&nbsp; dsm<br>07710 380044<br><a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a><b=
r><br><br>On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt; Serialization of a particular Lists of XML =
Classes in a unique way was closely related to what I attempted to =
express when I stated, &quot;consider to a degree what appears to be =
illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.&nbsp; However, it =
would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study =
this Security Art Form in a negative way.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry =
Adams<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
 (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@bieme=
diagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained =
herein is for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This =
information is granted for limited distribution within the recipient's =
place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, =
whether private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Re: [mile] =
IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM<br>&gt; =
From:<br>&gt; &quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>=
&gt;<br>&gt; To:<br>&gt; &quot;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; I =
would like to look at this from a slightly different =
perspective=A9let's<br>&gt; say I get an XML document that tells me =
about an incident.&nbsp; This document<br>&gt; has source IP and =
destination IP that is being shared.&nbsp; However, what I<br>&gt; don't =
know is which IP address is my indicator and which is just a<br>&gt; =
contextual piece of information.&nbsp; This means that my detection =
product<br>&gt; isn't going to know which one to use either, because =
there is nothing to<br>&gt; tell me which IP is the one, even if the =
roles are set it still might not<br>&gt; be enough to tell my system =
which one I should use as the indicator.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; If we had =
something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow us<br>&gt; =
to easily identify indicators from contextual data.&nbsp; I do admit to =
being<br>&gt; biased as I have spent much of my career working on the =
monitoring and<br>&gt; detection side of these things, so I am just =
thinking of ways to make it<br>&gt; very clear what the indicators are =
in the XML document and the other data<br>&gt; that may be important as =
I investigate activity that I have detected off<br>&gt; of those =
indicators.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; I did suggest the detection class, =
but I think we may get more flexibility<br>&gt; with the =
indicator_uid.&nbsp; One thing that I haven't considered is the =
UID<br>&gt; portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?&nbsp; How is the =
UID created?&nbsp; Are<br>&gt; there standards for UIDs?<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; Regards,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<br>&gt; SMC Lead Content =
Architect<br>&gt; RSA, The Security Division of EMC<br>&gt; cell: =
302.379.3375 | e: <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a>=
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: =
&quot;KathleenMoriarty&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc=
.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Cc: <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Date: =
Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Greetings =
Kathleen,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Your logic stimulates my visionary brain =
because I'm amazed at the many avenues you review with this approach at =
once.&nbsp; However,&nbsp; could you share a few advantages and =
disadvantages to the latter?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; &quot;we could =
continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and =
then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; You =
pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I wanted to =
protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your =
logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what appears =
to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
 (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@bieme=
diagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained herein is =
for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This information is =
granted for limited distribution within the recipient's place of =
business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, whether =
private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, =
Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc=
.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: &quot;C. Henry =
Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt;, &quot;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; =
Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hello C. =
Henry &amp; others,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thanks for taking a look at =
this.&nbsp; We have a few considerations in this email thread I would =
like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more once RFC5070-bis is =
actively edited).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The AdditionalData class and the =
RecordItem class both allow for non-XML extensions.&nbsp; Where you =
place the extensions should be specific to the logical grouping of the =
parent elements so you can understand more about the included data in =
most cases.&nbsp; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The Impact class can be used to =
provide context information on the included data of the report and also =
can include a confidence rating on the report as a whole.&nbsp; =
Extensions related to impact would be one level higher (at the moment) =
in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData extension point.&nbsp; =
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Take asked about including vulnerability information, =
I would think that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of =
the SCI draft in the Method class.&nbsp; He did ask about non-XML.&nbsp; =
RecordItem or AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we =
could either have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the =
extensions that are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or =
RecordItem classes according to what makes sense from a logical =
standpoint.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; As for my question, it was =
two-fold.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Indicator based schemas have a reference =
number or a GUID for the various indicators they share.&nbsp; If we are =
extending to embed other schemas that include such reference or GUID =
identifiers, do we want to add an attribute to the various elements in =
IODEF that could be indicators?&nbsp; Is this enough to make the =
connections or is something else else needed?&nbsp; We could add =
something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate =
to the reference or GUID identifiers.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Then the other =
question was on how to include indicators that are not in the base =
schema that may be related or have language with &quot;and&quot; =
&quot;or&quot; to specify the relationships.&nbsp; In some cases, you =
will want to group these indictors in one extension point, where they =
may fit logically in multiple places if the relationships did not need =
to be shown in the data format.&nbsp; If we have cases like this where =
you need more complex representations, should we use one extension point =
via the SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension =
point?&nbsp; Opinions are needed here.... <br>&gt; <br>&gt; A few people =
have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared indictors into =
the base IODEF document.&nbsp; We could have a catch-all class that does =
this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we could =
continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and =
then have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.&nbsp; I =
think I like the latter approach.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thank you,<br>&gt; =
Kathleen<br>&gt; ________________________________________<br>&gt; From: =
<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
 [<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
] On Behalf Of C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [<a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
]<br>&gt; Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM<br>&gt; To: <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Cc: C. =
Henry Adams<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Greetings =
Everyone,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Take mentioned two types of indicators based =
on the :<br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------<br>&gt; 1) If the indicators are something =
like an XML-based alert/warning of<br>&gt; information leakage, it could =
be an event that are conveyed in the SCI's<br>&gt; EventReport class, =
IMHO.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; 2) If the indicators are something like an =
non-XML ones, I guess it could be<br>&gt; conveyed without using SCI =
draft.<br>&gt; For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF =
to convey the<br>&gt; indicators.<br>&gt; We could for instance extend =
the list of indicators of the Impact class, if<br>&gt; needed.<br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; In doing so he pointed =
out the &quot;Impact Class&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Whereas, Kathleen =
stated,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------<br>&gt; For the discussion below, I was =
thinking more of combined set with relationships that may be included in =
a single extension point, so that's why I was thinking about the =
EventData class, but there may be better locations or a specific area =
within the EventData.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul Stoecker had suggested a =
&quot;Detection&quot; class as a consideration.<br>&gt; =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Kathleen thoughts related =
yet still with other indicators and the EventData Class.<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which =
encompass combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to =
simplify this issue?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
 (Direct Email)<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@bieme=
diagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained =
herein is for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This =
information is granted for limited distribution within the recipient's =
place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, =
whether private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; mile mailing =
list<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></body></ht=
ml>
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From takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp  Tue Feb  5 09:03:58 2013
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From: "Takeshi Takahashi" <takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>
To: "'Harrington, Christopher'" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, "'Stoecker, Paul'" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, "'Moriarty, Kathleen'" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, "'MILE IETF'" <mile@ietf.org>
References: <F5063677821E3B4F81ACFB7905573F24CE9E290B@MX15A.corp.emc.com>	<CD346D68.D0F9%paul.stoecker@rsa.com> <B14C10CA81885B4AAE1954F18457F2AB05697ECF48@MX36A.corp.emc.com>
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Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
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I like this discussion.
I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside the
IOC-related classes.

> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit =
into
a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of SCI =
or
right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this in my =
first
message).

If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event record, we
could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based IOCs that
couldn't fit anywhere else.
For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.

I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of the
indicator_set_id.
I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids and =
its
usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any other way to =
express
these groupings.
For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids. In =
this
case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though I =
think
I have read all the emails in the list, I might have mis-understood some
points.

By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI =
classes'
attributes so that they can be correlated with another information as =
well.

Thanks
Take



From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a logical =
and
/ or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If I give you 2
registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would have =
the
same group ID since they are related.=20

Thanks,
--Chris

From: Stoecker, Paul=20
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid? =
=A0This
would allow you to group indicators that are related into the same group =
ID.
=A0Would this resolve the issue?

It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators) =
class
that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them into one
place and have the ability to group the ones that go together. =A0I =
don't mean
a place to put indicators that are missing from IODEF.I mean a place in =
the
IODEF document where you put the indicators that are used for detection =
and
prevention of the shared Incident. =A0I don't know the answer here, but =
there
has got to be a good way for indicators to be identified and being able =
to
group them as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
complicated like STIX.

Paul


Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e:=A0paul.stoecker@rsa.com


From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE =
IETF
<mile@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Hi Chris,
=A0
I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
=A0
The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to the
definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including =
indicators
and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to 'parts of an =
incident
or the useful information on an incident for sharing purposes.=A0 It was
written before we used terms like indicators.=A0 With that in mind, =
Rosella
proposed a number of changes back in July, both for guidance and for =
format
updates.=A0 It may help to have the first draft try to address at least =
some
of these issues so people can understand the problems and at least a
proposed solution.
=A0
As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between sets =
of
indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that could have a
relationship to each other within a document.=A0 In the July =
presentation, one
of the questions was to see if we should add new category attribute =
values
for the System class that would connect the list of included =
indicators.=A0 I
think we should still keep the concept of a Node to a single node, but
perhaps within System, list multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type =
of
attack.=A0 Rosella had suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from =
RFC5901,
this would help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some =
broader
term).=A0 It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute values =
like
"C2-server", "sinkhole",=A0 "MalwareDistribution" for added context so =
you
know what to do with the received set of indicators.
=A0
I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of =
indicators,
add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect
indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of
indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared =
into
the base IODEF.
=A0
Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and hashes =
to
the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help Chris =
below).=A0 What
if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a class off of RecordData, =
using
a similar structure to what is in RFC5901, and also added the ability to
include hashes in RecordData?=A0 I think if we then had the =
indicator_uid at
the RecordData level, we could connect a set within that structure and
repeat the structure for other sets in the same way we would do with =
Node
inside of the System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set
together.=A0 Then at the more specific level for the hash, registry =
Key/value,
IP, etc. use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as
well?=A0 Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?=A0 I'd like =
some
opinions on this approach.=A0 +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have =
other
ideas that may work better.
=A0
We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent forward
sharing when not permitted.=A0 We may want to use these values or =
something
else.=A0=20
=A0
Thank you!
Kathleen=A0=20
=A0
From: Harrington, Christopher=20
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
=A0
I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In =
that
message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show are
related:
=A0
Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same threat:
       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the =
file
uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.=20
=A0
Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same threat:=20
       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either
value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be =
present.=20
=A0
The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where =
both
groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that logical
groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send multiple =
IODEF
messages for this from what I remember reading.=20
=A0
The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different =
indicators
that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to send both the =
MD5
and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the =
IOCs
are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use a =
unique
Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher level =
grouping.=20
=A0
Thoughts?
=A0
Thanks,
=A0
--Chris
=A0
Christopher Harrington
Consulting Security Engineer
GSO - Critical Incident Response Center
EMC - Where Information Lives
174 Middlesex Turnpike
Bedford, MA 01730
781-515-5862 (work)
603-583-1585 (cell)
=A0
From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
=A0
All -=20
=A0
I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from the
list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message and
additionally in Paul's message.
=A0
Interesting point, C. Henry.=A0 Our objective here is to have machine
automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation to
achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
=A0
Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from =
context
information that may also include IP address or other data that could be
indicators.=A0 The question I raised was on how to connect sets of =
indicators
in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to have watchlists that
could have several sets of indicators included, as well as to connect
indicators that may be included in embedded schemas.
=A0
If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?=A0 Do we use this to mark =
who
sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing when =
it is
not permitted or handle that separately?=A0=20
=A0
Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit =
into a
category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of SCI or
right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this in my =
first
message).
=A0
Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical =
solution
to have this machine automatable.
=A0
Thank you,
Kathleen
=A0
From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
C.
Henry Adams & BIE
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
=A0
Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.=A0 I remember when I first ran =
across
this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a peculiar
question.=A0 He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking the IP =
Address
to your computer?"=A0=20

I replied, "I don't know, how?"=20

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off=A0 and the modem that it is
connected- which is constantly on!"=A0=A0 LOL

Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :=A0 There is a 1st Responder
searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or =
let's
just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.=A0 He /or She needs to =
communication back
to other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.=A0 The device used =
to
communicate has been captured by the great minds of the enemy.=A0 It's =
only a
matter of time before they utilize reverse engineering to figure out how =
it
functions.=A0 However, their pride comes before a fall when seeking the
location of other similar devices to attack.=A0 Why? Perhaps the less =
thought
of concepts that makes the device function properly, saves the day by
disguise or cutting it off (figuratively speaking).

Just a visionary thought.

C. Henry Adams
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
http://biemediagroup.com


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:

From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM
UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a
temporal Id?

Yours Faithfully,

Dave Misell MSc CISSP
SilentCircle=A0 dsm
07710 380044
david.misell@bcs.org


On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way was
closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, "consider =
to a
degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some =
instances."
>=20
> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.=A0 However, it =
would
be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this
Security Art Form in a negative way.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> From:
> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> To:
> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> I would like to look at this from a slightly different =
perspective=A9let's
> say I get an XML document that tells me about an incident.=A0 This =
document
> has source IP and destination IP that is being shared.=A0 However, =
what I
> don't know is which IP address is my indicator and which is just a
> contextual piece of information.=A0 This means that my detection =
product
> isn't going to know which one to use either, because there is nothing =
to
> tell me which IP is the one, even if the roles are set it still might =
not
> be enough to tell my system which one I should use as the indicator.
>=20
> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow =
us
> to easily identify indicators from contextual data.=A0 I do admit to =
being
> biased as I have spent much of my career working on the monitoring and
> detection side of these things, so I am just thinking of ways to make =
it
> very clear what the indicators are in the XML document and the other =
data
> that may be important as I investigate activity that I have detected =
off
> of those indicators.
>=20
>=20
> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more =
flexibility
> with the indicator_uid.=A0 One thing that I haven't considered is the =
UID
> portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?=A0 How is the UID =
created?=A0 Are
> there standards for UIDs?
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Cc: mile@ietf.org
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>=20
> Greetings Kathleen,
>=20
> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the =
many
avenues you review with this approach at once.=A0 However,=A0 could you =
share a
few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>=20
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
----------------------------------------------
> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI."
>=20
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
---------------------------------------------
>=20
> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I =
wanted to
protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what appears =
to
be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
<mile@ietf.org>
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>=20
> Hello C. Henry & others,
>=20
> Thanks for taking a look at this.=A0 We have a few considerations in =
this
email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more =
once
RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>=20
> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for =
non-XML
extensions.=A0 Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more about =
the
included data in most cases.=A0=20
>=20
> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on =
the
report as a whole.=A0 Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher
(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData =
extension
point.=A0=20
>=20
> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think =
that
would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in =
the
Method class.=A0 He did ask about non-XML.=A0 RecordItem or =
AdditionalData do
allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft
handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come =
directly
off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes =
sense
from a logical standpoint.
>=20
> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>=20
> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the =
various
indicators they share.=A0 If we are extending to embed other schemas =
that
include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an =
attribute
to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?=A0 Is this =
enough
to make the connections or is something else else needed?=A0 We could =
add
something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate =
to
the reference or GUID identifiers.
>=20
> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not =
in
the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" to
specify the relationships.=A0 In some cases, you will want to group =
these
indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in =
multiple
places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data =
format.=A0 If
we have cases like this where you need more complex representations, =
should
we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData class
AdditionalData extension point?=A0 Opinions are needed here....=20
>=20
> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
indictors into the base IODEF document.=A0 We could have a catch-all =
class
that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we =
could
continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and =
then
have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.=A0 I think I =
like
the latter approach.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> ________________________________________
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C. =
Henry
Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> To: mile@ietf.org
> Cc: C. Henry Adams
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Greetings Everyone,
>=20
> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
--------------------------
> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the =
SCI's
> EventReport class, IMHO.
>=20
> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it =
could
be
> conveyed without using SCI draft.
> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey =
the
> indicators.
> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact =
class,
if
> needed.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
--------------------------
>=20
> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>=20
> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>=20
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
-------------------------
> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so =
that's
why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>=20
> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
------------------------
>=20
> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
EventData Class.
>=20
> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify =
this
issue?
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
=A0


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From: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
To: MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
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Subject: [mile] C. Henry's Analytical Attack
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---36511695-595860442-1360126840=:60482
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings All,

First, I would like to thank Eric & Kathleen for the opportunity to produce=
 a possible Attack Vector Scenario toward MILE.=A0 This scenario was simply=
 created to drum up unorthodox ideas or solutions to help solve the current=
 issue observed.=A0 It may or may not have any use in the identifier correl=
ations.

Attack Vector Scenario for MILE

Assumption:=A0 Let's assume the device (a particular Smartphone) utilizes I=
ODEF, RID & MILE in a special software to send certain communications to Em=
ergency Mgmt Agencies.

An Attacker steals a First Responder's Smartphone equipped with the IODEF, =
RID & MILE technology via its SECURED Web Browser.

This particular phone was poorly researched by a Government Agency that uti=
lize it.=A0 In fact, it has an older model Android or iPhone Browser which =
is not patched.

Furthermore, this particular smartphone FTS (Factory Test Screen) informati=
on is easily found on the Internet showing how to break into it.

Therefore, the Attacker removes the IP Address of the smartphone to stop it=
 from being tracked or buy time to perform analysis.

Furthermore while parsing the special software (i.e. Software consisting of=
 IODEF, RID & MILE), the attacker takes a lexical analysis approach primari=
ly toward MILE.

Discovering the correlations of MILE identifiers with RID and IODEF;=A0 a p=
robe is establish which eventually leads to a unique attack.


C. Henry Adams
=0Achatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
=0Achenryadams@biemediagroup.com
=0A
=0A
=0AThe information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the origina=
l recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within th=
e recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemi=
nation, whether private or public is prohibited.
---36511695-595860442-1360126840=:60482
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">Greetings All,<br><br>First, I would like to =
thank Eric &amp; Kathleen for the opportunity to produce a possible Attack =
Vector Scenario toward MILE.&nbsp; This scenario was simply created to drum=
 up unorthodox ideas or solutions to help solve the current issue observed.=
&nbsp; It may or may not have any use in the identifier correlations.<br><b=
r>Attack Vector Scenario for MILE<br><br>Assumption:&nbsp; Let's assume the=
 device (a particular Smartphone) utilizes IODEF, RID &amp; MILE in a speci=
al software to send certain communications to Emergency Mgmt Agencies.<br><=
br>An Attacker steals a First Responder's Smartphone equipped with the IODE=
F, RID &amp; MILE technology via its SECURED Web Browser.<br><br>This parti=
cular phone was poorly researched by a Government Agency that utilize it.&n=
bsp; In fact, it has an older model Android or iPhone Browser which is not
 patched.<br><br>Furthermore, this particular smartphone FTS (Factory Test =
Screen) information is easily found on the Internet showing how to break in=
to it.<br><br>Therefore, the Attacker removes the IP Address of the smartph=
one to stop it from being tracked or buy time to perform analysis.<br><br>F=
urthermore while parsing the special software (i.e. Software consisting of =
IODEF, RID &amp; MILE), the attacker takes a lexical analysis approach prim=
arily toward MILE.<br><br>Discovering the correlations of MILE identifiers =
with RID and IODEF;&nbsp; a probe is establish which eventually leads to a =
unique attack.<br><br><br>C. Henry Adams<br>=0Achatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direc=
t Email)<br>=0Achenryadams@biemediagroup.com<br>=0A<br>=0A<br>=0AThe inform=
ation contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original recipient. =
This information is granted for limited distribution within the recipient's=
 place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, wheth=
er private or public is prohibited.</td></tr></table>
---36511695-595860442-1360126840=:60482--

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From: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
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Greetings All,

As I stated cautiously optimistic, the Attack Vector scenario from a visual
standpoint could be useful or not.  

Nevertheles, let me point out that if there are issues with say XML identifiers within MILE which was derived from
INCH to help:

1) Coordinate Incident Reports
2) Reference SCAP Enumerations  

Perhaps, looking at different scenarios whether they are way out of scope will help somehow identify a simplified solution.
Thanks, for the consideration.

C. Henry Adams

chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)

chenryadams@biemediagroup.com





The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
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<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><pre>Greetings All,<br><br>As I stated cautiously optimistic, the Attack Vector scenario from a visual<br>standpoint could be useful or not.  <br><br>Nevertheles, let me point out that if there are issues with say XML identifiers within MILE which was derived from<br>INCH to help:<br><br>1) Coordinate Incident Reports<br>2) Reference SCAP Enumerations  <br><br>Perhaps, looking at different scenarios whether they are way out of scope will help somehow identify a simplified solution.<br></pre>Thanks, for the consideration.<br><br>C. Henry Adams<br>
chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)<br>
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<br>
<br>
<br>
The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.</td></tr></table>
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From eburger@cs.georgetown.edu  Wed Feb  6 10:18:42 2013
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Subject: Re: [mile] C. Henry's Analytical Attack
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I do not believe this is a use case for MILE and as such is way out of =
scope.

On Feb 6, 2013, at 12:00 AM, C. Henry Adams & BIE =
<chatlga2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Greetings All,
>=20
> First, I would like to thank Eric & Kathleen for the opportunity to =
produce a possible Attack Vector Scenario toward MILE.  This scenario =
was simply created to drum up unorthodox ideas or solutions to help =
solve the current issue observed.  It may or may not have any use in the =
identifier correlations.
>=20
> Attack Vector Scenario for MILE
>=20
> Assumption:  Let's assume the device (a particular Smartphone) =
utilizes IODEF, RID & MILE in a special software to send certain =
communications to Emergency Mgmt Agencies.
>=20
> An Attacker steals a First Responder's Smartphone equipped with the =
IODEF, RID & MILE technology via its SECURED Web Browser.
>=20
> This particular phone was poorly researched by a Government Agency =
that utilize it.  In fact, it has an older model Android or iPhone =
Browser which is not patched.
>=20
> Furthermore, this particular smartphone FTS (Factory Test Screen) =
information is easily found on the Internet showing how to break into =
it.
>=20
> Therefore, the Attacker removes the IP Address of the smartphone to =
stop it from being tracked or buy time to perform analysis.
>=20
> Furthermore while parsing the special software (i.e. Software =
consisting of IODEF, RID & MILE), the attacker takes a lexical analysis =
approach primarily toward MILE.
>=20
> Discovering the correlations of MILE identifiers with RID and IODEF;  =
a probe is establish which eventually leads to a unique attack.
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.


From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com  Thu Feb  7 11:00:25 2013
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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: Takeshi Takahashi <takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>, "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, "'MILE IETF'" <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 13:59:46 -0500
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Hi Take & others,

Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a few ot=
hers on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll provide an opti=
on below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view point.  We are also w=
ondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that could cross over into SCI =
attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the solutions may all tie together wi=
th this discussion - or there may be better/more elegant solutions others w=
ould like to propose).

-----Original Message-----
From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; 'MILE IETF=
'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

> I like this discussion.
> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside the
> IOC-related classes.

KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that should =
be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same class that is=
 a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you say, list the indica=
tor IDs connected through the reference class.  The set IDs might give us o=
ther ways to group the values when we get into logic and relationships betw=
een sets or indicators.  This could also be a way to connect indicators or =
sets across XML documents that could have been shared previously.  If there=
 are a large number of indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for=
 smaller sets, I agree it doesn't make as much sense.

What do others think?

>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit int=
o
>> a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of SCI o=
r
>> right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this in my f=
irst
>> message).
>
> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event record, we
> could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based IOCs that
> couldn't fit anywhere else.

KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into guidance in t=
he SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?

>
> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
KMM: Sounds good, thanks!

> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of the
> indicator_set_id.
> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids and i=
ts
> usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any other way to expr=
ess
> these groupings.
> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids. In th=
is
> case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?

KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or subsequ=
ent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this happen?  Wou=
ld it be easier to express relationships with sets of indicators in additio=
n to individual indicators?  By using this, it could give us a unique way t=
o also provide the logic and relationships in a new class of IODEF so we do=
n't have to worry about adding it into the current structure.  If there are=
 better ways to handle that, and others can provide some options, that woul=
d be appreciated!

Thank you,
Kathleen

> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though I thi=
nk
> I have read all the emails in the list, I might have mis-understood some
> points.
>
> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI classes=
'
> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information as wel=
l.
>
> Thanks
> Take



From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a logical an=
d
/ or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If I give you 2
registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would have the
same group ID since they are related.

Thanks,
--Chris

From: Stoecker, Paul
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?  This
would allow you to group indicators that are related into the same group ID=
.
 Would this resolve the issue?

It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators) class
that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them into one
place and have the ability to group the ones that go together.  I don't mea=
n
a place to put indicators that are missing from IODEF.I mean a place in the
IODEF document where you put the indicators that are used for detection and
prevention of the shared Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there
has got to be a good way for indicators to be identified and being able to
group them as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
complicated like STIX.

Paul


Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com


From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE IETF
<mile@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Hi Chris,

I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.

The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to the
definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including indicators
and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to 'parts of an inciden=
t
or the useful information on an incident for sharing purposes.  It was
written before we used terms like indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella
proposed a number of changes back in July, both for guidance and for format
updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least some
of these issues so people can understand the problems and at least a
proposed solution.

As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between sets of
indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that could have a
relationship to each other within a document.  In the July presentation, on=
e
of the questions was to see if we should add new category attribute values
for the System class that would connect the list of included indicators.  I
think we should still keep the concept of a Node to a single node, but
perhaps within System, list multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of
attack.  Rosella had suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901=
,
this would help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broade=
r
term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute values like
"C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added context so you
know what to do with the received set of indicators.

I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of indicators,
add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect
indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of
indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared into
the base IODEF.

Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and hashes to
the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help Chris below).  Wha=
t
if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a class off of RecordData, usin=
g
a similar structure to what is in RFC5901, and also added the ability to
include hashes in RecordData?  I think if we then had the indicator_uid at
the RecordData level, we could connect a set within that structure and
repeat the structure for other sets in the same way we would do with Node
inside of the System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set
together.  Then at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value=
,
IP, etc. use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as
well?  Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some
opinions on this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other
ideas that may work better.

We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent forward
sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values or something
else.

Thank you!
Kathleen

From: Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In that
message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show are
related:

Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same threat:
       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the fil=
e
uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.

Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same threat:
       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either
value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be present.

The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where both
groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that logical
groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send multiple IODEF
messages for this from what I remember reading.

The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different indicators
that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to send both the MD5
and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the IOCs
are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use a unique
Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher level grouping.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

--Chris

Christopher Harrington
Consulting Security Engineer
GSO - Critical Incident Response Center
EMC - Where Information Lives
174 Middlesex Turnpike
Bedford, MA 01730
781-515-5862 (work)
603-583-1585 (cell)

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

All -

I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from the
list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message and
additionally in Paul's message.

Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation to
achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.

Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from contex=
t
information that may also include IP address or other data that could be
indicators.  The question I raised was on how to connect sets of indicators
in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to have watchlists that
could have several sets of indicators included, as well as to connect
indicators that may be included in embedded schemas.

If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to mark who
sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing when it i=
s
not permitted or handle that separately?

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit into a
category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of SCI or
right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this in my firs=
t
message).

Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical solutio=
n
to have this machine automatable.

Thank you,
Kathleen

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
Henry Adams & BIE
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran across
this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a peculiar
question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking the IP Address
to your computer?"

I replied, "I don't know, how?"

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL

Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or let'=
s
just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to communication bac=
k
to other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.  The device used to
communicate has been captured by the great minds of the enemy.  It's only a
matter of time before they utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it
functions.  However, their pride comes before a fall when seeking the
location of other similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought
of concepts that makes the device function properly, saves the day by
disguise or cutting it off (figuratively speaking).

Just a visionary thought.

C. Henry Adams
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
http://biemediagroup.com


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:

From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM
UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a
temporal Id?

Yours Faithfully,

Dave Misell MSc CISSP
SilentCircle  dsm
07710 380044
david.misell@bcs.org


On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way was
closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, "consider to =
a
degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances."
>
> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it would
be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this
Security Art Form in a negative way.
>
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>
>
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>
> Re: [mile] IOCs
>
> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> From:
> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> To:
> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> I would like to look at this from a slightly different perspective=A9let'=
s
> say I get an XML document that tells me about an incident.  This document
> has source IP and destination IP that is being shared.  However, what I
> don't know is which IP address is my indicator and which is just a
> contextual piece of information.  This means that my detection product
> isn't going to know which one to use either, because there is nothing to
> tell me which IP is the one, even if the roles are set it still might not
> be enough to tell my system which one I should use as the indicator.
>
> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow us
> to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to being
> biased as I have spent much of my career working on the monitoring and
> detection side of these things, so I am just thinking of ways to make it
> very clear what the indicators are in the XML document and the other data
> that may be important as I investigate activity that I have detected off
> of those indicators.
>
>
> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more flexibilit=
y
> with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't considered is the UID
> portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How is the UID created?  Are
> there standards for UIDs?
>
> Regards,
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Cc: mile@ietf.org
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>
> Greetings Kathleen,
>
> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the many
avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you share a
few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
----------------------------------------------
> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI."
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
---------------------------------------------
>
> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I wanted t=
o
protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what appears to
be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>
>
>
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote=
:
>
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
<mile@ietf.org>
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>
> Hello C. Henry & others,
>
> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in this
email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more once
RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>
> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for non-XML
extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more about th=
e
included data in most cases.
>
> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on the
report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level higher
(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData extension
point.
>
> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think that
would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in the
Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or AdditionalData do
allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft
handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come directly
off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes sense
from a logical standpoint.
>
> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>
> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the various
indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas that
include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an attribute
to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this enough
to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could add
something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to
the reference or GUID identifiers.
>
> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not in
the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" to
specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group these
indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in multiple
places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data format.  I=
f
we have cases like this where you need more complex representations, should
we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData class
AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....
>
> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all class
that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we coul=
d
continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and then
have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I like
the latter approach.
>
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> ________________________________________
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C. Henry
Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> To: mile@ietf.org
> Cc: C. Henry Adams
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>
> Greetings Everyone,
>
> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
--------------------------
> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the SCI's
> EventReport class, IMHO.
>
> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it could
be
> conveyed without using SCI draft.
> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey the
> indicators.
> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact class,
if
> needed.
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
--------------------------
>
> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>
> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
-------------------------
> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so that's
why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>
> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
------------------------
>
> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
EventData Class.
>
> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify this
issue?
>
>
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>
>
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile




From Christopher.Harrington@emc.com  Thu Feb  7 11:11:40 2013
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From: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>
To: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Takeshi Takahashi <takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, "'MILE IETF'" <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:11:06 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have =
seen
and use this is a generally accepted grouping:

Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor

Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute =
would be
beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect science by any
means.=20

Thanks,

--Chris


-----Original Message-----
From: Moriarty, Kathleen=20
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE =
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Hi Take & others,

Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a few
others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll provide an
option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view point.  We are
also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that could cross over =
into
SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the solutions may all tie =
together
with this discussion - or there may be better/more elegant solutions =
others
would like to propose).

-----Original Message-----
From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; 'MILE =
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

> I like this discussion.
> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside=20
> the IOC-related classes.

KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that =
should
be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same class that =
is
a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you say, list the
indicator IDs connected through the reference class.  The set IDs might =
give
us other ways to group the values when we get into logic and =
relationships
between sets or indicators.  This could also be a way to connect =
indicators
or sets across XML documents that could have been shared previously.  If
there are a large number of indicators in the set, then this becomes =
useful,
for smaller sets, I agree it doesn't make as much sense.

What do others think?

>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=20
>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off=20
>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on =

>> this in my first message).
>
> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event record,=20
> we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based IOCs =

> that couldn't fit anywhere else.

KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into guidance =
in
the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?

>
> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
KMM: Sounds good, thanks!

> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of=20
> the indicator_set_id.
> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids=20
> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any other=20
> way to express these groupings.
> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids. In =

> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?

KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of =
indicators
in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it could give us a
unique way to also provide the logic and relationships in a new class of
IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it into the current =
structure.
If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
options, that would be appreciated!=20

Thank you,
Kathleen

> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though I=20
> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have=20
> mis-understood some points.
>
> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI =
classes'
> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information as
well.
>
> Thanks
> Take



From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a logical =
and
/ or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If I give you 2
registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would have =
the
same group ID since they are related.=20

Thanks,
--Chris

From: Stoecker, Paul
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid? =
=A0This
would allow you to group indicators that are related into the same group =
ID.
=A0Would this resolve the issue?

It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators) =
class
that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them into one
place and have the ability to group the ones that go together. =A0I =
don't mean
a place to put indicators that are missing from IODEF.I mean a place in =
the
IODEF document where you put the indicators that are used for detection =
and
prevention of the shared Incident. =A0I don't know the answer here, but =
there
has got to be a good way for indicators to be identified and being able =
to
group them as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
complicated like STIX.

Paul


Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e:=A0paul.stoecker@rsa.com


From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE =
IETF
<mile@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Hi Chris,
=A0
I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
=A0
The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to the
definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including =
indicators
and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to 'parts of an =
incident
or the useful information on an incident for sharing purposes.=A0 It was
written before we used terms like indicators.=A0 With that in mind, =
Rosella
proposed a number of changes back in July, both for guidance and for =
format
updates.=A0 It may help to have the first draft try to address at least =
some
of these issues so people can understand the problems and at least a
proposed solution.
=A0
As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between sets =
of
indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that could have a
relationship to each other within a document.=A0 In the July =
presentation, one
of the questions was to see if we should add new category attribute =
values
for the System class that would connect the list of included =
indicators.=A0 I
think we should still keep the concept of a Node to a single node, but
perhaps within System, list multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type =
of
attack.=A0 Rosella had suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from =
RFC5901,
this would help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some =
broader
term).=A0 It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute values =
like
"C2-server", "sinkhole",=A0 "MalwareDistribution" for added context so =
you
know what to do with the received set of indicators.
=A0
I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of =
indicators,
add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect
indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of
indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared =
into
the base IODEF.
=A0
Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and hashes =
to
the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help Chris =
below).=A0 What
if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a class off of RecordData, =
using
a similar structure to what is in RFC5901, and also added the ability to
include hashes in RecordData?=A0 I think if we then had the =
indicator_uid at
the RecordData level, we could connect a set within that structure and
repeat the structure for other sets in the same way we would do with =
Node
inside of the System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set
together.=A0 Then at the more specific level for the hash, registry =
Key/value,
IP, etc. use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as
well?=A0 Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?=A0 I'd like =
some
opinions on this approach.=A0 +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have =
other
ideas that may work better.
=A0
We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent forward
sharing when not permitted.=A0 We may want to use these values or =
something
else.=A0=20
=A0
Thank you!
Kathleen=A0=20
=A0
From: Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
=A0
I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In =
that
message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show are
related:
=A0
Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same threat:
       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the =
file
uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.=20
=A0
Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same threat:=20
       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either
value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be =
present.=20
=A0
The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where =
both
groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that logical
groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send multiple =
IODEF
messages for this from what I remember reading.=20
=A0
The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different =
indicators
that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to send both the =
MD5
and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the =
IOCs
are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use a =
unique
Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher level =
grouping.=20
=A0
Thoughts?
=A0
Thanks,
=A0
--Chris
=A0
Christopher Harrington
Consulting Security Engineer
GSO - Critical Incident Response Center
EMC - Where Information Lives
174 Middlesex Turnpike
Bedford, MA 01730
781-515-5862 (work)
603-583-1585 (cell)
=A0
From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
=A0
All -=20
=A0
I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from the
list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message and
additionally in Paul's message.
=A0
Interesting point, C. Henry.=A0 Our objective here is to have machine
automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation to
achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
=A0
Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from =
context
information that may also include IP address or other data that could be
indicators.=A0 The question I raised was on how to connect sets of =
indicators
in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to have watchlists that
could have several sets of indicators included, as well as to connect
indicators that may be included in embedded schemas.
=A0
If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?=A0 Do we use this to mark =
who
sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing when =
it is
not permitted or handle that separately?=A0=20
=A0
Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit =
into a
category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of SCI or
right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this in my =
first
message).
=A0
Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical =
solution
to have this machine automatable.
=A0
Thank you,
Kathleen
=A0
From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
C.
Henry Adams & BIE
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
=A0
Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.=A0 I remember when I first ran =
across
this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a peculiar
question.=A0 He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking the IP =
Address
to your computer?"=A0=20

I replied, "I don't know, how?"=20

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off=A0 and the modem that it is
connected- which is constantly on!"=A0=A0 LOL

Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :=A0 There is a 1st Responder
searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or =
let's
just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.=A0 He /or She needs to =
communication back
to other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.=A0 The device used =
to
communicate has been captured by the great minds of the enemy.=A0 It's =
only a
matter of time before they utilize reverse engineering to figure out how =
it
functions.=A0 However, their pride comes before a fall when seeking the
location of other similar devices to attack.=A0 Why? Perhaps the less =
thought
of concepts that makes the device function properly, saves the day by
disguise or cutting it off (figuratively speaking).

Just a visionary thought.

C. Henry Adams
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
http://biemediagroup.com


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:

From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM
UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a
temporal Id?

Yours Faithfully,

Dave Misell MSc CISSP
SilentCircle=A0 dsm
07710 380044
david.misell@bcs.org


On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way was
closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, "consider =
to a
degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some =
instances."
>=20
> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.=A0 However, it=20
> would
be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this
Security Art Form in a negative way.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
> original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> From:
> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> To:
> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> I would like to look at this from a slightly different=20
> perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an=20
> incident.=A0 This document has source IP and destination IP that is=20
> being shared.=A0 However, what I don't know is which IP address is my=20
> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.=A0 This =

> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use=20
> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even=20
> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system =
which
one I should use as the indicator.
>=20
> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow=20
> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.=A0 I do admit =
to=20
> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the=20
> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking=20
> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML=20
> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate=20
> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>=20
>=20
> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more=20
> flexibility with the indicator_uid.=A0 One thing that I haven't=20
> considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?=A0 How =
is=20
> the UID created?=A0 Are there standards for UIDs?
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Cc: mile@ietf.org
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>=20
> Greetings Kathleen,
>=20
> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the=20
> many
avenues you review with this approach at once.=A0 However,=A0 could you =
share a
few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>=20
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
----------------------------------------------
> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI."
>=20
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
---------------------------------------------
>=20
> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I=20
> wanted to
protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what appears =
to
be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
> original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
<mile@ietf.org>
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>=20
> Hello C. Henry & others,
>=20
> Thanks for taking a look at this.=A0 We have a few considerations in=20
> this
email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more =
once
RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>=20
> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for=20
> non-XML
extensions.=A0 Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more about =
the
included data in most cases.=A0=20
>=20
> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on =
the
report as a whole.=A0 Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher
(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData =
extension
point.=A0=20
>=20
> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think=20
> that
would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in =
the
Method class.=A0 He did ask about non-XML.=A0 RecordItem or =
AdditionalData do
allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft
handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come =
directly
off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes =
sense
from a logical standpoint.
>=20
> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>=20
> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the=20
> various
indicators they share.=A0 If we are extending to embed other schemas =
that
include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an =
attribute
to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?=A0 Is this =
enough
to make the connections or is something else else needed?=A0 We could =
add
something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate =
to
the reference or GUID identifiers.
>=20
> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not=20
> in
the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" to
specify the relationships.=A0 In some cases, you will want to group =
these
indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in =
multiple
places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data =
format.=A0 If
we have cases like this where you need more complex representations, =
should
we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData class
AdditionalData extension point?=A0 Opinions are needed here....=20
>=20
> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
indictors into the base IODEF document.=A0 We could have a catch-all =
class
that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we =
could
continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and =
then
have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.=A0 I think I =
like
the latter approach.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> ________________________________________
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.=20
> Henry
Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> To: mile@ietf.org
> Cc: C. Henry Adams
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Greetings Everyone,
>=20
> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
--------------------------
> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of=20
> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the=20
> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>=20
> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it=20
> could
be
> conveyed without using SCI draft.
> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey=20
> the indicators.
> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact=20
> class,
if
> needed.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
--------------------------
>=20
> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>=20
> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>=20
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
-------------------------
> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so =
that's
why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>=20
> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
------------------------
>=20
> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
EventData Class.
>=20
> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify =
this
issue?
>=20
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
> original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within =
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
=A0



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From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com  Fri Feb  8 07:28:42 2013
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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 10:28:27 -0500
Thread-Topic: Next Meeting & important dates
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Hello,

The next MILE meeting has been scheduled for Wednesday March 13, 2013 from =
13:00-15:00 EDT (Note: we switch to daylight savings time on March 10th) in=
 Orlando, Florida.
https://www.ietf.org/

Important dates:
*  2013-02-18 (Monday): Internet Draft Cut-off for initial document (-00) s=
ubmission by UTC 24:00, upload using IETF ID Submission Tool<https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/submit/>.
*  2013-02-25 (Monday): Internet Draft final submission cut-off by UTC 24:0=
0, upload using IETF ID Submission Tool<https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit=
/>.

MeetEcho will be available.

Best regards,
Kathleen


--_000_F5063677821E3B4F81ACFB7905573F24CEBDED4AMX15Acorpemccom_
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<div>Hello,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The next MILE meeting has been scheduled for Wednesday March 13, 2013 =
from 13:00-15:00 EDT (Note: we switch to daylight savings time on March 10<=
font size=3D"1"><sup>th</sup></font>) in Orlando, Florida.</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/"><font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>https://w=
ww.ietf.org/</u></font></a></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Important dates:</div>
<div><font face=3D"Symbol, serif">&middot;</font>&nbsp; <b>2013-02-18 (Mond=
ay):</b> Internet Draft Cut-off for initial document (-00) submission by UT=
C 24:00, upload using <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/"><fon=
t color=3D"#0000FF"><u>IETF ID Submission Tool</u></font></a>.
</div>
<div><font face=3D"Symbol, serif">&middot;</font>&nbsp; <b>2013-02-25 (Mond=
ay):</b> Internet Draft final submission cut-off by UTC 24:00, upload using=
 <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/"><font color=3D"#0000FF"><=
u>IETF ID Submission Tool</u></font></a>.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>MeetEcho will be available.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
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From eburger-l@standardstrack.com  Sat Feb  9 04:47:35 2013
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From: Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>
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Cc: MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] C. Henry's Analytical Attack
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By "this attack", I was talking about attacks on MILE, not attacks on =
you.  Apologies if it was interpreted that way.

As Kathleen stated, this would be the thread to enumerate the possible =
attack vectors to MILE.  Not being chartered for security is not the =
same as ignoring security.  All IETF documents post 1997 must discuss =
the security implications of whatever is described in the document.  The =
reason for moving this discussion to a difference subject is that people =
uninterested in the discussion can quickly delete the messages and =
people interested can contribute here.  That is the best of both worlds.

So, what attacks to you see?  It would be helpful if you could be more =
specific than saying a bad person steals a device.  We would need to =
know what they would do with the device to attack the system.

On Feb 4, 2013, at 11:35 AM, C. Henry Adams & BIE =
<chatlga2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Greetings Eric,
>=20
> [snip]
>=20
> --- On Mon, 2/4/13, Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> wrote:
>=20
> From: Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>
> Subject: C. Henry's Analytical Attack
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Cc: "MILE IETF" <mile@ietf.org>
> Date: Monday, February 4, 2013, 6:18 AM
>=20
> I am not quite sure this attack is relevant in the MILE use case.  I =
would be curious if you could explain in further detail how you would =
disrupt MILE communications.  If there is a fatal flaw (beyond the known =
flaws in TCP), it would be good to get them out in the open.
>=20
> Considering the Computer Science perspective, if we are modeling a =
complex world, our model will be complex.  Check out McCabe.  However, =
one can add more complexity than necessary to model our domain.  That is =
what we seek to avoid here.
>=20
> Note that I changed the subject of the thread, as this has nothing to =
do with indicator correlation.
>=20
> On Feb 1, 2013, at 2:24 PM, C. Henry Adams & BIE =
<chatlga2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> > Furthermore,  if I was to tell you that a "Simple Minded Computer =
Technician" like myself could figure out analytically how to attack your =
indicators to set up a simple plan to disable your automated machine's =
communications, would you not believe me?  Oh, one more thing, the fact =
of the matter that the capabilities would be there- would be based on =
say the protocol you put into place by complexity rather than =
simplicity.
> [snip]
> > From:
> > "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>
> > To:
> > "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, "MILE IETF" =
<mile@ietf.org>
> > Message contains attachments
> > 1 File (7KB)
> >     =95 smime.p7s
> > I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the =
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In =
that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show =
are related:
> >=20
> > =20
> > Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same =
threat:
> >=20
> > The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the =
file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.
> >=20
> > =20
> > Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same =
threat:
> >=20
> > 2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either =
value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be =
present.
> >=20
> > =20
> > The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario =
where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show =
that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can=92t =
send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
> >=20
> > =20
> > The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different =
indicators that represent the same indicator. It=92s not uncommon to =
send both the MD5 and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is =
the file but the IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are =
related? If we use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs =
to be a higher level grouping.
> > [snip]

From takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp  Tue Feb 12 01:20:43 2013
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Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
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Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to =
deal
with large sets of indicators.
Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be =
omitted
if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.

Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence =
attribute
for the reason Chris kindly described.
I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical? =
For
instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence", =
etc?

Thank you.
Take


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have =
seen
> and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>=20
> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>=20
> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute =
would
> be
> beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect science by =
any
> means.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Take & others,
>=20
> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a =
few
> others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll provide
> an
> option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view point.  We =
are
> also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that could cross =
over
> into
> SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the solutions may all tie
> together
> with this discussion - or there may be better/more elegant solutions
> others
> would like to propose).
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; 'MILE
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> > I like this discussion.
> > I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
> > the IOC-related classes.
>=20
> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that =
should
> be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same class =
that
> is
> a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you say, list the
> indicator IDs connected through the reference class.  The set IDs =
might
> give
> us other ways to group the values when we get into logic and =
relationships
> between sets or indicators.  This could also be a way to connect
> indicators
> or sets across XML documents that could have been shared previously.  =
If
> there are a large number of indicators in the set, then this becomes
> useful,
> for smaller sets, I agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>=20
> What do others think?
>=20
> >> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not =
fit
> >> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these =
off
> >> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details
> on
> >> this in my first message).
> >
> > If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event =
record,
> > we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based =
IOCs
> > that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>=20
> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into guidance
> in
> the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>=20
> >
> > For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>=20
> > I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
> > the indicator_set_id.
> > I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
> > and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any =
other
> > way to express these groupings.
> > For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
> In
> > this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>=20
> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
> indicators
> in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it could give us
> a
> unique way to also provide the logic and relationships in a new class
> of
> IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it into the current
structure.
> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
> options, that would be appreciated!
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> > I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
> I
> > think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
> > mis-understood some points.
> >
> > By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
classes'
> > attributes so that they can be correlated with another information =
as
> well.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Take
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a =
logical
> and
> / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If I give you
> 2
> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would =
have
> the
> same group ID since they are related.
>=20
> Thanks,
> --Chris
>=20
> From: Stoecker, Paul
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid? =
=A0This
> would allow you to group indicators that are related into the same =
group
> ID.
> =A0Would this resolve the issue?
>=20
> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
> class
> that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them into =
one
> place and have the ability to group the ones that go together. =A0I =
don't
> mean
> a place to put indicators that are missing from IODEF.I mean a place =
in
> the
> IODEF document where you put the indicators that are used for =
detection
> and
> prevention of the shared Incident. =A0I don't know the answer here, =
but
> there
> has got to be a good way for indicators to be identified and being =
able
> to
> group them as Chris has suggested without basically recreating =
something
> complicated like STIX.
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e:=A0paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
>=20
> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE
> IETF
> <mile@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Chris,
>=20
> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>=20
> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to =
the
> definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
> indicators
> and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to 'parts of an
> incident
> or the useful information on an incident for sharing purposes.=A0 It =
was
> written before we used terms like indicators.=A0 With that in mind, =
Rosella
> proposed a number of changes back in July, both for guidance and for
format
> updates.=A0 It may help to have the first draft try to address at =
least
> some
> of these issues so people can understand the problems and at least a
> proposed solution.
>=20
> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between =
sets
> of
> indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that could have
> a
> relationship to each other within a document.=A0 In the July =
presentation,
> one
> of the questions was to see if we should add new category attribute =
values
> for the System class that would connect the list of included
> indicators.=A0 I
> think we should still keep the concept of a Node to a single node, but
> perhaps within System, list multiple sets of Nodes that may be one =
type
> of
> attack.=A0 Rosella had suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from
> RFC5901,
> this would help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
> AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some
> broader
> term).=A0 It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute =
values
> like
> "C2-server", "sinkhole",=A0 "MalwareDistribution" for added context so
> you
> know what to do with the received set of indicators.
>=20
> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
indicators,
> add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect
> indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of
> indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
> connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared =
into
> the base IODEF.
>=20
> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and =
hashes
> to
> the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help Chris
> below).=A0 What
> if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a class off of RecordData,
> using
> a similar structure to what is in RFC5901, and also added the ability
> to
> include hashes in RecordData?=A0 I think if we then had the =
indicator_uid
> at
> the RecordData level, we could connect a set within that structure and
> repeat the structure for other sets in the same way we would do with =
Node
> inside of the System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set
> together.=A0 Then at the more specific level for the hash, registry
> Key/value,
> IP, etc. use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level =
as
> well?=A0 Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?=A0 I'd like =
some
> opinions on this approach.=A0 +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have =
other
> ideas that may work better.
>=20
> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent =
forward
> sharing when not permitted.=A0 We may want to use these values or =
something
> else.
>=20
> Thank you!
> Kathleen
>=20
> From: Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
> that
> message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show are
> related:
>=20
> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same =
threat:
>        The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that =
the
> file
> uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.
>=20
> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same =
threat:
>        2 different registry values for the same registry key. If =
either
> value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be
present.
>=20
> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where
> both
> groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that =
logical
> groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send multiple =
IODEF
> messages for this from what I remember reading.
>=20
> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different =
indicators
> that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to send both the
> MD5
> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the =
IOCs
> are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use a =
unique
> Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher level
grouping.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
> Christopher Harrington
> Consulting Security Engineer
> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center
> EMC - Where Information Lives
> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
> Bedford, MA 01730
> 781-515-5862 (work)
> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> All -
>=20
> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from =
the
> list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message and
> additionally in Paul's message.
>=20
> Interesting point, C. Henry.=A0 Our objective here is to have machine
> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
> to
> achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>=20
> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
> context
> information that may also include IP address or other data that could
> be
> indicators.=A0 The question I raised was on how to connect sets of
> indicators
> in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to have watchlists =
that
> could have several sets of indicators included, as well as to connect
> indicators that may be included in embedded schemas.
>=20
> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?=A0 Do we use this to =
mark
> who
> sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing when
> it is
> not permitted or handle that separately?
>=20
> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit =
into
> a
> category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of SCI =
or
> right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this in my
> first
> message).
>=20
> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
> solution
> to have this machine automatable.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> C.
> Henry Adams & BIE
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.=A0 I remember when I first ran
> across
> this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a peculiar
> question.=A0 He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking the IP =
Address
> to your computer?"
>=20
> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>=20
> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off=A0 and the modem that it is
> connected- which is constantly on!"=A0=A0 LOL
>=20
> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :=A0 There is a 1st Responder
> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or
> let's
> just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.=A0 He /or She needs to =
communication
> back
> to other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.=A0 The device =
used
> to
> communicate has been captured by the great minds of the enemy.=A0 It's =
only
> a
> matter of time before they utilize reverse engineering to figure out =
how
> it
> functions.=A0 However, their pride comes before a fall when seeking =
the
> location of other similar devices to attack.=A0 Why? Perhaps the less
> thought
> of concepts that makes the device function properly, saves the day by
> disguise or cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>=20
> Just a visionary thought.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> http://biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the =
original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>=20
> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM
> UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a
> temporal Id?
>=20
> Yours Faithfully,
>=20
> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
> SilentCircle=A0 dsm
> 07710 380044
> david.misell@bcs.org
>=20
>=20
> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>=20
> > Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way =
was
> closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, =
"consider
> to a
> degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some =
instances."
> >
> > However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.=A0 However, it
> > would
> be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this
> Security Art Form in a negative way.
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> > From:
> > "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> > To:
> > "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> > I would like to look at this from a slightly different
> > perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
> > incident.=A0 This document has source IP and destination IP that is
> > being shared.=A0 However, what I don't know is which IP address is =
my
> > indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.=A0 =
This
> > means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
> > either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, =
even
> > if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
> which
> one I should use as the indicator.
> >
> > If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would =
allow
> > us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.=A0 I do admit =
to
> > being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
> > monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
> > of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
> > document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
> > activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
> >
> >
> > I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
> > flexibility with the indicator_uid.=A0 One thing that I haven't
> > considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?=A0 =
How is
> > the UID created?=A0 Are there standards for UIDs?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> > SMC Lead Content Architect
> > RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> > cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
> >
> > From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Cc: mile@ietf.org
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
> >
> > Greetings Kathleen,
> >
> > Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
> > many
> avenues you review with this approach at once.=A0 However,=A0 could =
you share
> a
> few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ----------------------------------------------
> > "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now =
in
> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI."
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ---------------------------------------------
> >
> > You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
> > wanted to
> protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
> logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what =
appears
> to
> be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
> >
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
> <mile@ietf.org>
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
> >
> > Hello C. Henry & others,
> >
> > Thanks for taking a look at this.=A0 We have a few considerations in
> > this
> email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more =
once
> RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
> >
> > The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
> > non-XML
> extensions.=A0 Where you place the extensions should be specific to =
the
> logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more =
about
> the
> included data in most cases.
> >
> > The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating =
on
> the
> report as a whole.=A0 Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher
> (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData =
extension
> point.
> >
> > Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
> > that
> would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
> the
> Method class.=A0 He did ask about non-XML.=A0 RecordItem or =
AdditionalData
> do
> allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft
> handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come =
directly
> off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes =
sense
> from a logical standpoint.
> >
> > As for my question, it was two-fold.
> >
> > Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
> > various
> indicators they share.=A0 If we are extending to embed other schemas =
that
> include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an =
attribute
> to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?=A0 Is this =
enough
> to make the connections or is something else else needed?=A0 We could =
add
> something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then =
correlate
> to
> the reference or GUID identifiers.
> >
> > Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are =
not
> > in
> the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" =
to
> specify the relationships.=A0 In some cases, you will want to group =
these
> indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in =
multiple
> places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
> format.=A0 If
> we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
> should
> we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData =
class
> AdditionalData extension point?=A0 Opinions are needed here....
> >
> > A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
> indictors into the base IODEF document.=A0 We could have a catch-all =
class
> that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we
> could
> continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
> then
> have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.=A0 I think I =
like
> the latter approach.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Kathleen
> > ________________________________________
> > From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
> > Henry
> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> > To: mile@ietf.org
> > Cc: C. Henry Adams
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Greetings Everyone,
> >
> > Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> > 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning =
of
> > information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
> > SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
> >
> > 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
> > could
> be
> > conveyed without using SCI draft.
> > For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
> > the indicators.
> > We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
> > class,
> if
> > needed.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> >
> > In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
> >
> > Whereas, Kathleen stated,
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> -------------------------
> > For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so =
that's
> why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
> locations or a specific area within the EventData.
> >
> > Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ------------------------
> >
> > Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
> EventData Class.
> >
> > Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
> this
> issue?
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> > _______________________________________________
> > mile mailing list
> > mile@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>=20
>=20



From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com  Tue Feb 12 04:04:06 2013
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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: Takeshi Takahashi <takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>, "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, "'MILE IETF'" <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 07:03:35 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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Hi Take,

Great!

As for Confidence, if you look at the current schema, you can list it as ei=
ther low, medium, high or provide a numerical value (I think) between 0-100=
.

Paul is working to get a draft out soon so you and others can look at it an=
d review/comment and we'll see what else requires adjustment.

Thank you,
Kathleen

-----Original Message-----
From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF=
'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to deal
with large sets of indicators.
Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be omitted
if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.

Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence attribute
for the reason Chris kindly described.
I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical? For
instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence", etc?

Thank you.
Take


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>
> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have seen
> and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>
> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>
> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute would
> be
> beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect science by any
> means.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Chris
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>
> Hi Take & others,
>
> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a few
> others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll provide
> an
> option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view point.  We are
> also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that could cross over
> into
> SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the solutions may all tie
> together
> with this discussion - or there may be better/more elegant solutions
> others
> would like to propose).
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; 'MILE
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>
> > I like this discussion.
> > I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
> > the IOC-related classes.
>
> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that shoul=
d
> be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same class that
> is
> a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you say, list the
> indicator IDs connected through the reference class.  The set IDs might
> give
> us other ways to group the values when we get into logic and relationship=
s
> between sets or indicators.  This could also be a way to connect
> indicators
> or sets across XML documents that could have been shared previously.  If
> there are a large number of indicators in the set, then this becomes
> useful,
> for smaller sets, I agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>
> What do others think?
>
> >> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
> >> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
> >> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details
> on
> >> this in my first message).
> >
> > If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event record,
> > we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based IOCs
> > that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>
> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into guidance
> in
> the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>
> >
> > For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>
> > I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
> > the indicator_set_id.
> > I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
> > and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any other
> > way to express these groupings.
> > For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
> In
> > this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>
> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
> indicators
> in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it could give us
> a
> unique way to also provide the logic and relationships in a new class
> of
> IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it into the current
structure.
> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
> options, that would be appreciated!
>
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>
> > I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
> I
> > think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
> > mis-understood some points.
> >
> > By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
classes'
> > attributes so that they can be correlated with another information as
> well.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Take
>
>
>
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>
> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a logical
> and
> / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If I give you
> 2
> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would have
> the
> same group ID since they are related.
>
> Thanks,
> --Chris
>
> From: Stoecker, Paul
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>
> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?  This
> would allow you to group indicators that are related into the same group
> ID.
>  Would this resolve the issue?
>
> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
> class
> that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them into one
> place and have the ability to group the ones that go together.  I don't
> mean
> a place to put indicators that are missing from IODEF.I mean a place in
> the
> IODEF document where you put the indicators that are used for detection
> and
> prevention of the shared Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but
> there
> has got to be a good way for indicators to be identified and being able
> to
> group them as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
> complicated like STIX.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>
>
> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE
> IETF
> <mile@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>
> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to the
> definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
> indicators
> and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to 'parts of an
> incident
> or the useful information on an incident for sharing purposes.  It was
> written before we used terms like indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella
> proposed a number of changes back in July, both for guidance and for
format
> updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least
> some
> of these issues so people can understand the problems and at least a
> proposed solution.
>
> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between sets
> of
> indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that could have
> a
> relationship to each other within a document.  In the July presentation,
> one
> of the questions was to see if we should add new category attribute value=
s
> for the System class that would connect the list of included
> indicators.  I
> think we should still keep the concept of a Node to a single node, but
> perhaps within System, list multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type
> of
> attack.  Rosella had suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from
> RFC5901,
> this would help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
> AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some
> broader
> term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute values
> like
> "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added context so
> you
> know what to do with the received set of indicators.
>
> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
indicators,
> add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect
> indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of
> indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
> connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared into
> the base IODEF.
>
> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and hashes
> to
> the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help Chris
> below).  What
> if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a class off of RecordData,
> using
> a similar structure to what is in RFC5901, and also added the ability
> to
> include hashes in RecordData?  I think if we then had the indicator_uid
> at
> the RecordData level, we could connect a set within that structure and
> repeat the structure for other sets in the same way we would do with Node
> inside of the System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set
> together.  Then at the more specific level for the hash, registry
> Key/value,
> IP, etc. use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as
> well?  Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some
> opinions on this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have othe=
r
> ideas that may work better.
>
> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent forward
> sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values or something
> else.
>
> Thank you!
> Kathleen
>
> From: Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>
> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
> that
> message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to show are
> related:
>
> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same threat:
>        The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that the
> file
> uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.
>
> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same threat:
>        2 different registry values for the same registry key. If either
> value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not be
present.
>
> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where
> both
> groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that logical
> groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send multiple IODEF
> messages for this from what I remember reading.
>
> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different indicators
> that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to send both the
> MD5
> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the IOCs
> are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use a uniqu=
e
> Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher level
grouping.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Chris
>
> Christopher Harrington
> Consulting Security Engineer
> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center
> EMC - Where Information Lives
> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
> Bedford, MA 01730
> 781-515-5862 (work)
> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>
> All -
>
> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from the
> list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message and
> additionally in Paul's message.
>
> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
> to
> achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>
> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
> context
> information that may also include IP address or other data that could
> be
> indicators.  The question I raised was on how to connect sets of
> indicators
> in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to have watchlists that
> could have several sets of indicators included, as well as to connect
> indicators that may be included in embedded schemas.
>
> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to mark
> who
> sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing when
> it is
> not permitted or handle that separately?
>
> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit into
> a
> category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off of SCI or
> right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on this in my
> first
> message).
>
> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
> solution
> to have this machine automatable.
>
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> C.
> Henry Adams & BIE
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>
> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran
> across
> this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a peculiar
> question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking the IP Addres=
s
> to your computer?"
>
> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>
> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>
> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or
> let's
> just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to communication
> back
> to other Officials that he /or somehow is in Danger.  The device used
> to
> communicate has been captured by the great minds of the enemy.  It's only
> a
> matter of time before they utilize reverse engineering to figure out how
> it
> functions.  However, their pride comes before a fall when seeking the
> location of other similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less
> thought
> of concepts that makes the device function properly, saves the day by
> disguise or cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>
> Just a visionary thought.
>
> C. Henry Adams
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> http://biemediagroup.com
>
>
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>
> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>
> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM
> UID could be mirrored with DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a
> temporal Id?
>
> Yours Faithfully,
>
> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
> SilentCircle  dsm
> 07710 380044
> david.misell@bcs.org
>
>
> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way was
> closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated, "consider
> to a
> degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.=
"
> >
> > However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
> > would
> be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this
> Security Art Form in a negative way.
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> > From:
> > "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> > To:
> > "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> > I would like to look at this from a slightly different
> > perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
> > incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
> > being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
> > indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
> > means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
> > either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even
> > if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
> which
> one I should use as the indicator.
> >
> > If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow
> > us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to
> > being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
> > monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
> > of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
> > document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
> > activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
> >
> >
> > I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
> > flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
> > considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How is
> > the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> > SMC Lead Content Architect
> > RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> > cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> wrote=
:
> >
> > From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Cc: mile@ietf.org
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
> >
> > Greetings Kathleen,
> >
> > Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
> > many
> avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you share
> a
> few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ----------------------------------------------
> > "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI."
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ---------------------------------------------
> >
> > You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
> > wanted to
> protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
> logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what appears
> to
> be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
> >
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
> <mile@ietf.org>
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
> >
> > Hello C. Henry & others,
> >
> > Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
> > this
> email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more once
> RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
> >
> > The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
> > non-XML
> extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
> logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more about
> the
> included data in most cases.
> >
> > The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on
> the
> report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level highe=
r
> (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData extensio=
n
> point.
> >
> > Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
> > that
> would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
> the
> Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or AdditionalData
> do
> allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft
> handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come directl=
y
> off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes sens=
e
> from a logical standpoint.
> >
> > As for my question, it was two-fold.
> >
> > Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
> > various
> indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas that
> include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an attribut=
e
> to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this enoug=
h
> to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could add
> something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate
> to
> the reference or GUID identifiers.
> >
> > Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not
> > in
> the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" to
> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group these
> indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in multipl=
e
> places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
> format.  If
> we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
> should
> we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData class
> AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....
> >
> > A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all class
> that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we
> could
> continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
> then
> have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I like
> the latter approach.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Kathleen
> > ________________________________________
> > From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
> > Henry
> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> > To: mile@ietf.org
> > Cc: C. Henry Adams
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Greetings Everyone,
> >
> > Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> > 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
> > information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
> > SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
> >
> > 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
> > could
> be
> > conveyed without using SCI draft.
> > For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
> > the indicators.
> > We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
> > class,
> if
> > needed.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> >
> > In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
> >
> > Whereas, Kathleen stated,
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> -------------------------
> > For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so that's
> why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
> locations or a specific area within the EventData.
> >
> > Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ------------------------
> >
> > Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
> EventData Class.
> >
> > Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
> this
> issue?
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> > _______________________________________________
> > mile mailing list
> > mile@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>
>




From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Tue Feb 12 05:14:52 2013
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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 05:14:51 -0800
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Subject: [mile] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mile-sci-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Managed Incident Lightweight Exchange Wor=
king Group of the IETF.

	Title           : IODEF-extension to support structured cybersecurity info=
rmation
	Author(s)       : Takeshi Takahashi
                          Kent Landfield
                          Thomas Millar
                          Youki Kadobayashi
	Filename        : draft-ietf-mile-sci-06.txt
	Pages           : 32
	Date            : 2013-02-12

Abstract:
   This document extends the Incident Object Description Exchange Format
   (IODEF) defined in RFC 5070 [RFC5070] to exchange enriched
   cybersecurity information among cybersecurity entities and facilitate
   their operations.  It provides the capability of embedding structured
   information, such as identifier- and XML-based information.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mile-sci

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mile-sci-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mile-sci-06


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp  Tue Feb 12 05:22:49 2013
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From: "Takeshi Takahashi" <takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>
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Subject: Re: [mile] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mile-sci-06.txt
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Hi all,

The updated version of the SCI draft is now available.

Major changes.
1. Following the discussion over the mailing list, the normative reference
section now has MMDEF 1.2. (See section 12.1)
2. Since MMDEF 1.2 is a specification in the normative reference, the
initial entry of the IANA table has MMDEF 1.2. (See section 4.1)
3. The entry listed in the initial IANA table is regarded as the MTI (See
section 5)

I hope this version correctly reflected the discussion result and addressed
the remaining issues of the draft, i.e., MTI and normative reference.

I would appreciate very much if I could hear some feedback here.

Kind regards,
Take



> -----Original Message-----
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:15 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: mile@ietf.org
> Subject: [mile] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mile-sci-06.txt
> 
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>  This draft is a work item of the Managed Incident Lightweight Exchange
> Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title           : IODEF-extension to support structured
> cybersecurity information
> 	Author(s)       : Takeshi Takahashi
>                           Kent Landfield
>                           Thomas Millar
>                           Youki Kadobayashi
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-mile-sci-06.txt
> 	Pages           : 32
> 	Date            : 2013-02-12
> 
> Abstract:
>    This document extends the Incident Object Description Exchange Format
>    (IODEF) defined in RFC 5070 [RFC5070] to exchange enriched
>    cybersecurity information among cybersecurity entities and
> facilitate
>    their operations.  It provides the capability of embedding structured
>    information, such as identifier- and XML-based information.
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mile-sci
> 
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mile-sci-06
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mile-sci-06
> 
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile


From Christopher.Harrington@emc.com  Tue Feb 12 06:22:32 2013
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From: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>
To: "'Takeshi Takahashi'" <takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, "'MILE IETF'" <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 09:22:16 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs

My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break =
it
down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on =
scoring,
rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand =
low/med/high
without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the level.=20

Low - I am not sure
Medium - I am reasonably sure
High - I am very sure=20


Thanks,

--Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE =
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to =
deal
with large sets of indicators.
Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be =
omitted
if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.

Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence =
attribute
for the reason Chris kindly described.
I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical? =
For
instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence", =
etc?

Thank you.
Take


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have=20
> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>=20
> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>=20
> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute=20
> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect=20
> science by any means.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=20
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Take & others,
>=20
> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a=20
> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll=20
> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view=20
> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that=20
> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the=20
> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be=20
> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; 'MILE =

> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> > I like this discussion.
> > I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside=20
> > the IOC-related classes.
>=20
> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that=20
> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same=20
> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you=20
> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class. =20
> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get=20
> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could=20
> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that=20
> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of=20
> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I=20
> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>=20
> What do others think?
>=20
> >> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not=20
> >> fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for=20
> >> these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?=20
> >> (more details
> on
> >> this in my first message).
> >
> > If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event=20
> > record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the=20
> > XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>=20
> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into guidance =

> in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>=20
> >
> > For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>=20
> > I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of=20
> > the indicator_set_id.
> > I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids=20
> > and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any=20
> > other way to express these groupings.
> > For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
> In
> > this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>=20
> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or=20
> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this=20
> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of=20
> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it=20
> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and relationships =

> in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it into =

> the current
structure.
> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some=20
> options, that would be appreciated!
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> > I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
> I
> > think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have=20
> > mis-understood some points.
> >
> > By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
classes'
> > attributes so that they can be correlated with another information=20
> > as
> well.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Take
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a=20
> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If =

> I give you
> 2
> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of=20
> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would=20
> have the same group ID since they are related.
>=20
> Thanks,
> --Chris
>=20
> From: Stoecker, Paul
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid? =A0
> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the=20
> same group ID.
> =A0Would this resolve the issue?
>=20
> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)=20
> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them=20
> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go=20
> together. =A0I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing=20
> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the=20
> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared=20
> Incident. =A0I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a=20
> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them=20
> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something=20
> complicated like STIX.
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e:=A0paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
>=20
> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE=20
> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Chris,
>=20
> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>=20
> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to=20
> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including=20
> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to=20
> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for=20
> sharing purposes.=A0 It was written before we used terms like=20
> indicators.=A0 With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes =

> back in July, both for guidance and for
format
> updates.=A0 It may help to have the first draft try to address at =
least=20
> some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at=20
> least a proposed solution.
>=20
> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between=20
> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that=20
> could have a relationship to each other within a document.=A0 In the=20
> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add=20
> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect=20
> the list of included indicators.=A0 I think we should still keep the=20
> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list=20
> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.=A0 Rosella had=20
> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would=20
> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an AttackType =

> (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader=20
> term).=A0 It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute =
values=20
> like "C2-server", "sinkhole",=A0 "MalwareDistribution" for added =
context=20
> so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.
>=20
> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
indicators,
> add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect=20
> indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of=20
> indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the=20
> connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared=20
> into the base IODEF.
>=20
> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and=20
> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help=20
> Chris below).=A0 What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a=20
> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in=20
> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in =
RecordData?=A0=20
> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we=20
> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure for =

> other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System=20
> class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.=A0 Then at the =

> more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an=20
> indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?=A0 Maybe =

> we want indicator_set at the higher level?=A0 I'd like some opinions =
on=20
> this approach.=A0 +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas =

> that may work better.
>=20
> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent=20
> forward sharing when not permitted.=A0 We may want to use these values =

> or something else.
>=20
> Thank you!
> Kathleen
>=20
> From: Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the=20
> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In=20
> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to=20
> show are
> related:
>=20
> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same =
threat:
>        The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that=20
> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.
>=20
> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same =
threat:
>        2 different registry values for the same registry key. If=20
> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not =

> be
present.
>=20
> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where =

> both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that=20
> logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send=20
> multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
>=20
> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different=20
> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to=20
> send both the
> MD5
> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the=20
> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use =

> a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher=20
> level
grouping.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
> Christopher Harrington
> Consulting Security Engineer
> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
> Bedford, MA 01730
> 781-515-5862 (work)
> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> All -
>=20
> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from=20
> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message=20
> and additionally in Paul's message.
>=20
> Interesting point, C. Henry.=A0 Our objective here is to have machine=20
> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation=20
> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>=20
> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from=20
> context information that may also include IP address or other data=20
> that could be indicators.=A0 The question I raised was on how to =
connect=20
> sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to =

> have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,=20
> as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded=20
> schemas.
>=20
> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say=20
> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?=A0 Do we use this to =
mark=20
> who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing=20
> when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>=20
> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=20
> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off=20
> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on=20
> this in my first message).
>=20
> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical=20
> solution to have this machine automatable.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of C.
> Henry Adams & BIE
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.=A0 I remember when I first ran =

> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a=20
> peculiar question.=A0 He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking =

> the IP Address to your computer?"
>=20
> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>=20
> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off=A0 and the modem that it is
> connected- which is constantly on!"=A0=A0 LOL
>=20
> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :=A0 There is a 1st Responder =

> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or =

> let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.=A0 He /or She needs to=20
> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in=20
> Danger.=A0 The device used to communicate has been captured by the =
great=20
> minds of the enemy.=A0 It's only a matter of time before they utilize=20
> reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.=A0 However, their=20
> pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar=20
> devices to attack.=A0 Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that=20
> makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or=20
> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>=20
> Just a visionary thought.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> http://biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20
> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20
> prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>=20
> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with DNS =

> SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>=20
> Yours Faithfully,
>=20
> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
> SilentCircle=A0 dsm
> 07710 380044
> david.misell@bcs.org
>=20
>=20
> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>=20
> > Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way=20
> > was
> closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,=20
> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds=20
> in some instances."
> >
> > However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.=A0 However, it =

> > would
> be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this =

> Security Art Form in a negative way.
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> > From:
> > "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> > To:
> > "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> > I would like to look at this from a slightly different
> > perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
> > incident.=A0 This document has source IP and destination IP that is
> > being shared.=A0 However, what I don't know is which IP address is =
my
> > indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.=A0 =
This
> > means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
> > either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, =
even
> > if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
> which
> one I should use as the indicator.
> >
> > If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would =
allow
> > us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.=A0 I do admit =
to
> > being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
> > monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
> > of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
> > document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
> > activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
> >
> >
> > I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
> > flexibility with the indicator_uid.=A0 One thing that I haven't
> > considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?=A0 =
How is
> > the UID created?=A0 Are there standards for UIDs?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> > SMC Lead Content Architect
> > RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> > cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
> >
> > From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Cc: mile@ietf.org
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
> >
> > Greetings Kathleen,
> >
> > Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
> > many
> avenues you review with this approach at once.=A0 However,=A0 could =
you share
> a
> few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ----------------------------------------------
> > "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now =
in
> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI."
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ---------------------------------------------
> >
> > You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
> > wanted to
> protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
> logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what =
appears
> to
> be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
> >
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
> <mile@ietf.org>
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
> >
> > Hello C. Henry & others,
> >
> > Thanks for taking a look at this.=A0 We have a few considerations in
> > this
> email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more =
once
> RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
> >
> > The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
> > non-XML
> extensions.=A0 Where you place the extensions should be specific to =
the
> logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more =
about
> the
> included data in most cases.
> >
> > The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating =
on
> the
> report as a whole.=A0 Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher
> (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData =
extension
> point.
> >
> > Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
> > that
> would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
> the
> Method class.=A0 He did ask about non-XML.=A0 RecordItem or =
AdditionalData
> do
> allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft
> handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come =
directly
> off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes =
sense
> from a logical standpoint.
> >
> > As for my question, it was two-fold.
> >
> > Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
> > various
> indicators they share.=A0 If we are extending to embed other schemas =
that
> include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an =
attribute
> to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?=A0 Is this =
enough
> to make the connections or is something else else needed?=A0 We could =
add
> something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then =
correlate
> to
> the reference or GUID identifiers.
> >
> > Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are =
not
> > in
> the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" =
to
> specify the relationships.=A0 In some cases, you will want to group =
these
> indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in =
multiple
> places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
> format.=A0 If
> we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
> should
> we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData =
class
> AdditionalData extension point?=A0 Opinions are needed here....
> >
> > A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
> indictors into the base IODEF document.=A0 We could have a catch-all =
class
> that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we
> could
> continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
> then
> have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.=A0 I think I =
like
> the latter approach.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Kathleen
> > ________________________________________
> > From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
> > Henry
> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> > To: mile@ietf.org
> > Cc: C. Henry Adams
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Greetings Everyone,
> >
> > Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> > 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning =
of
> > information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
> > SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
> >
> > 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
> > could
> be
> > conveyed without using SCI draft.
> > For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
> > the indicators.
> > We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
> > class,
> if
> > needed.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> >
> > In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
> >
> > Whereas, Kathleen stated,
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> -------------------------
> > For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so =
that's
> why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
> locations or a specific area within the EventData.
> >
> > Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ------------------------
> >
> > Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
> EventData Class.
> >
> > Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
> this
> issue?
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> > _______________________________________________
> > mile mailing list
> > mile@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>=20
>=20




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From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com  Tue Feb 12 06:59:23 2013
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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, "'Takeshi Takahashi'" <takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, "'MILE IETF'" <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 09:59:00 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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Hi Chris & Take,

I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema allows =
for you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, =
and high.  Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share =
the data.  If people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would =
be helpful to have guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance =
document.

I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches, =
so we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is =
nice to keep in flexible options where we can.

Thank you,
Kathleen

-----Original Message-----
From: Harrington, Christopher=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs

My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break =
it
down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on =
scoring,
rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand =
low/med/high
without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the level.=20

Low - I am not sure
Medium - I am reasonably sure
High - I am very sure=20


Thanks,

--Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE =
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to =
deal
with large sets of indicators.
Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be =
omitted
if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.

Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence =
attribute
for the reason Chris kindly described.
I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical? =
For
instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence", =
etc?

Thank you.
Take


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have=20
> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>=20
> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>=20
> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute=20
> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect=20
> science by any means.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=20
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Take & others,
>=20
> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a=20
> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll=20
> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view=20
> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that=20
> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the=20
> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be=20
> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; 'MILE =

> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> > I like this discussion.
> > I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside=20
> > the IOC-related classes.
>=20
> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that=20
> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same=20
> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you=20
> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class. =20
> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get=20
> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could=20
> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that=20
> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of=20
> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I=20
> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>=20
> What do others think?
>=20
> >> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not=20
> >> fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for=20
> >> these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?=20
> >> (more details
> on
> >> this in my first message).
> >
> > If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event=20
> > record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the=20
> > XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>=20
> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into guidance =

> in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>=20
> >
> > For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>=20
> > I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of=20
> > the indicator_set_id.
> > I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids=20
> > and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any=20
> > other way to express these groupings.
> > For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
> In
> > this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>=20
> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or=20
> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this=20
> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of=20
> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it=20
> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and relationships =

> in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it into =

> the current
structure.
> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some=20
> options, that would be appreciated!
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> > I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
> I
> > think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have=20
> > mis-understood some points.
> >
> > By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
classes'
> > attributes so that they can be correlated with another information=20
> > as
> well.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Take
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a=20
> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If =

> I give you
> 2
> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of=20
> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would=20
> have the same group ID since they are related.
>=20
> Thanks,
> --Chris
>=20
> From: Stoecker, Paul
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid? =20
> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the=20
> same group ID.
>  Would this resolve the issue?
>=20
> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)=20
> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them=20
> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go=20
> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing=20
> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the=20
> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared=20
> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a=20
> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them=20
> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something=20
> complicated like STIX.
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
>=20
> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE=20
> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Chris,
>=20
> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>=20
> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to=20
> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including=20
> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to=20
> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for=20
> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like=20
> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes=20
> back in July, both for guidance and for
format
> updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least=20
> some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at=20
> least a proposed solution.
>=20
> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between=20
> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that=20
> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the=20
> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add=20
> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect=20
> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the=20
> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list=20
> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had=20
> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would=20
> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an AttackType =

> (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader=20
> term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute values =

> like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added context =

> so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.
>=20
> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
indicators,
> add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect=20
> indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of=20
> indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the=20
> connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared=20
> into the base IODEF.
>=20
> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and=20
> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help=20
> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a=20
> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in=20
> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData? =20
> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we=20
> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure for =

> other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System=20
> class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at the=20
> more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an=20
> indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Maybe=20
> we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions on=20
> this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas=20
> that may work better.
>=20
> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent=20
> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values=20
> or something else.
>=20
> Thank you!
> Kathleen
>=20
> From: Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the=20
> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In=20
> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to=20
> show are
> related:
>=20
> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same =
threat:
>        The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that=20
> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.
>=20
> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same =
threat:
>        2 different registry values for the same registry key. If=20
> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not =

> be
present.
>=20
> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where =

> both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that=20
> logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send=20
> multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
>=20
> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different=20
> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to=20
> send both the
> MD5
> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the=20
> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use =

> a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher=20
> level
grouping.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
> Christopher Harrington
> Consulting Security Engineer
> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
> Bedford, MA 01730
> 781-515-5862 (work)
> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> All -
>=20
> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from=20
> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message=20
> and additionally in Paul's message.
>=20
> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine=20
> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation=20
> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>=20
> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from=20
> context information that may also include IP address or other data=20
> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to connect =

> sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to =

> have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,=20
> as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded=20
> schemas.
>=20
> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say=20
> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to mark =

> who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing=20
> when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>=20
> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=20
> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off=20
> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on=20
> this in my first message).
>=20
> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical=20
> solution to have this machine automatable.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of C.
> Henry Adams & BIE
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran=20
> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a=20
> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking=20
> the IP Address to your computer?"
>=20
> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>=20
> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>=20
> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder=20
> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or =

> let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to=20
> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in=20
> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the great =

> minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize=20
> reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their=20
> pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar=20
> devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that=20
> makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or=20
> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>=20
> Just a visionary thought.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> http://biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20
> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20
> prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>=20
> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with DNS =

> SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>=20
> Yours Faithfully,
>=20
> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
> SilentCircle  dsm
> 07710 380044
> david.misell@bcs.org
>=20
>=20
> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>=20
> > Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way=20
> > was
> closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,=20
> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds=20
> in some instances."
> >
> > However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it=20
> > would
> be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this =

> Security Art Form in a negative way.
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> > From:
> > "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> > To:
> > "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> > I would like to look at this from a slightly different
> > perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
> > incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
> > being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
> > indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
> > means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
> > either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, =
even
> > if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
> which
> one I should use as the indicator.
> >
> > If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would =
allow
> > us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit =
to
> > being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
> > monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
> > of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
> > document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
> > activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
> >
> >
> > I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
> > flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
> > considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How =
is
> > the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> > SMC Lead Content Architect
> > RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> > cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
> >
> > From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Cc: mile@ietf.org
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
> >
> > Greetings Kathleen,
> >
> > Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
> > many
> avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you =
share
> a
> few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ----------------------------------------------
> > "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now =
in
> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI."
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ---------------------------------------------
> >
> > You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
> > wanted to
> protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
> logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what =
appears
> to
> be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
> >
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
> <mile@ietf.org>
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
> >
> > Hello C. Henry & others,
> >
> > Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
> > this
> email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more =
once
> RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
> >
> > The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
> > non-XML
> extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
> logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more =
about
> the
> included data in most cases.
> >
> > The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating =
on
> the
> report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher
> (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData =
extension
> point.
> >
> > Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
> > that
> would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
> the
> Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or AdditionalData
> do
> allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft
> handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come =
directly
> off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes =
sense
> from a logical standpoint.
> >
> > As for my question, it was two-fold.
> >
> > Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
> > various
> indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas =
that
> include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an =
attribute
> to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this =
enough
> to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could =
add
> something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then =
correlate
> to
> the reference or GUID identifiers.
> >
> > Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are =
not
> > in
> the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" =
to
> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group =
these
> indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in =
multiple
> places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
> format.  If
> we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
> should
> we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData =
class
> AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....
> >
> > A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all =
class
> that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we
> could
> continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
> then
> have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I =
like
> the latter approach.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Kathleen
> > ________________________________________
> > From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
> > Henry
> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> > To: mile@ietf.org
> > Cc: C. Henry Adams
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Greetings Everyone,
> >
> > Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> > 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning =
of
> > information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
> > SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
> >
> > 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
> > could
> be
> > conveyed without using SCI draft.
> > For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
> > the indicators.
> > We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
> > class,
> if
> > needed.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> >
> > In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
> >
> > Whereas, Kathleen stated,
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> -------------------------
> > For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so =
that's
> why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
> locations or a specific area within the EventData.
> >
> > Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ------------------------
> >
> > Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
> EventData Class.
> >
> > Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
> this
> issue?
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> > _______________________________________________
> > mile mailing list
> > mile@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>=20
>=20




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From Christopher.Harrington@emc.com  Tue Feb 12 10:07:08 2013
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From: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>
To: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, "'Takeshi Takahashi'" <takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, "'MILE IETF'" <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:06:41 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence =
the
way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me an =
IoC
with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a =
scale of
1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability to
describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly when =
we
store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are =
numeric
as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very problematic.=20

At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly =
recommend
that we revisit this at some point.=20

Thanks,

--Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Moriarty, Kathleen=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Hi Chris & Take,

I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema allows =
for
you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and =
high.
Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.  If
people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful to =
have
guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.

I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches, =
so
we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is nice =
to
keep in flexible options where we can.

Thank you,
Kathleen

-----Original Message-----
From: Harrington, Christopher=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs

My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break =
it
down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on =
scoring,
rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand =
low/med/high
without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the level.=20

Low - I am not sure
Medium - I am reasonably sure
High - I am very sure=20


Thanks,

--Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE =
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to =
deal
with large sets of indicators.
Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be =
omitted
if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.

Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence =
attribute
for the reason Chris kindly described.
I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical? =
For
instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence", =
etc?

Thank you.
Take


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have=20
> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>=20
> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>=20
> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute=20
> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect=20
> science by any means.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=20
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Take & others,
>=20
> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a=20
> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll=20
> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view=20
> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that=20
> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the=20
> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be=20
> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; 'MILE =

> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> > I like this discussion.
> > I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside=20
> > the IOC-related classes.
>=20
> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that=20
> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same=20
> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you=20
> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class. =20
> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get=20
> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could=20
> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that=20
> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of=20
> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I=20
> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>=20
> What do others think?
>=20
> >> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not=20
> >> fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for=20
> >> these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?=20
> >> (more details
> on
> >> this in my first message).
> >
> > If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event=20
> > record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the=20
> > XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>=20
> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into guidance =

> in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>=20
> >
> > For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>=20
> > I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of=20
> > the indicator_set_id.
> > I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids=20
> > and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any=20
> > other way to express these groupings.
> > For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
> In
> > this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>=20
> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or=20
> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this=20
> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of=20
> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it=20
> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and relationships =

> in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it into =

> the current
structure.
> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some=20
> options, that would be appreciated!
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> > I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
> I
> > think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have=20
> > mis-understood some points.
> >
> > By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
classes'
> > attributes so that they can be correlated with another information=20
> > as
> well.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Take
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a=20
> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If =

> I give you
> 2
> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of=20
> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would=20
> have the same group ID since they are related.
>=20
> Thanks,
> --Chris
>=20
> From: Stoecker, Paul
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid? =20
> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the=20
> same group ID.
>  Would this resolve the issue?
>=20
> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)=20
> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them=20
> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go=20
> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing=20
> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the=20
> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared=20
> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a=20
> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them=20
> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something=20
> complicated like STIX.
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
>=20
> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE=20
> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Chris,
>=20
> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>=20
> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to=20
> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including=20
> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to=20
> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for=20
> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like=20
> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes=20
> back in July, both for guidance and for
format
> updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least=20
> some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at=20
> least a proposed solution.
>=20
> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between=20
> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that=20
> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the=20
> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add=20
> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect=20
> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the=20
> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list=20
> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had=20
> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would=20
> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an AttackType =

> (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader=20
> term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute values =

> like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added context =

> so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.
>=20
> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
indicators,
> add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect=20
> indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of=20
> indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the=20
> connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared=20
> into the base IODEF.
>=20
> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and=20
> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help=20
> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a=20
> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in=20
> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData? =20
> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we=20
> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure for =

> other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System=20
> class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at the=20
> more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an=20
> indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Maybe=20
> we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions on=20
> this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas=20
> that may work better.
>=20
> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent=20
> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values=20
> or something else.
>=20
> Thank you!
> Kathleen
>=20
> From: Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the=20
> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In=20
> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to=20
> show are
> related:
>=20
> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same =
threat:
>        The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that=20
> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.
>=20
> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same =
threat:
>        2 different registry values for the same registry key. If=20
> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not =

> be
present.
>=20
> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where =

> both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that=20
> logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send=20
> multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
>=20
> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different=20
> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to=20
> send both the
> MD5
> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the=20
> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use =

> a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher=20
> level
grouping.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
> Christopher Harrington
> Consulting Security Engineer
> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
> Bedford, MA 01730
> 781-515-5862 (work)
> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> All -
>=20
> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from=20
> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message=20
> and additionally in Paul's message.
>=20
> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine=20
> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation=20
> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>=20
> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from=20
> context information that may also include IP address or other data=20
> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to connect =

> sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to =

> have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,=20
> as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded=20
> schemas.
>=20
> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say=20
> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to mark =

> who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing=20
> when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>=20
> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=20
> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off=20
> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on=20
> this in my first message).
>=20
> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical=20
> solution to have this machine automatable.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of C.
> Henry Adams & BIE
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran=20
> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a=20
> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking=20
> the IP Address to your computer?"
>=20
> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>=20
> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>=20
> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder=20
> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or =

> let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to=20
> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in=20
> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the great =

> minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize=20
> reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their=20
> pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar=20
> devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that=20
> makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or=20
> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>=20
> Just a visionary thought.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> http://biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20
> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20
> prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>=20
> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with DNS =

> SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>=20
> Yours Faithfully,
>=20
> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
> SilentCircle  dsm
> 07710 380044
> david.misell@bcs.org
>=20
>=20
> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>=20
> > Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way=20
> > was
> closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,=20
> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds=20
> in some instances."
> >
> > However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it=20
> > would
> be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this =

> Security Art Form in a negative way.
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> > From:
> > "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> > To:
> > "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> > I would like to look at this from a slightly different
> > perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
> > incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
> > being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
> > indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
> > means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
> > either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, =
even
> > if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
> which
> one I should use as the indicator.
> >
> > If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would =
allow
> > us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit =
to
> > being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
> > monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
> > of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
> > document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
> > activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
> >
> >
> > I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
> > flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
> > considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How =
is
> > the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> > SMC Lead Content Architect
> > RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> > cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
> >
> > From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Cc: mile@ietf.org
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
> >
> > Greetings Kathleen,
> >
> > Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
> > many
> avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you =
share
> a
> few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ----------------------------------------------
> > "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now =
in
> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI."
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ---------------------------------------------
> >
> > You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
> > wanted to
> protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
> logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what =
appears
> to
> be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
> >
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
> <mile@ietf.org>
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
> >
> > Hello C. Henry & others,
> >
> > Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
> > this
> email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more =
once
> RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
> >
> > The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
> > non-XML
> extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
> logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more =
about
> the
> included data in most cases.
> >
> > The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating =
on
> the
> report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher
> (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData =
extension
> point.
> >
> > Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
> > that
> would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
> the
> Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or AdditionalData
> do
> allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft
> handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come =
directly
> off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes =
sense
> from a logical standpoint.
> >
> > As for my question, it was two-fold.
> >
> > Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
> > various
> indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas =
that
> include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an =
attribute
> to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this =
enough
> to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could =
add
> something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then =
correlate
> to
> the reference or GUID identifiers.
> >
> > Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are =
not
> > in
> the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" =
to
> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group =
these
> indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in =
multiple
> places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
> format.  If
> we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
> should
> we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData =
class
> AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....
> >
> > A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all =
class
> that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we
> could
> continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
> then
> have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I =
like
> the latter approach.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Kathleen
> > ________________________________________
> > From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
> > Henry
> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> > To: mile@ietf.org
> > Cc: C. Henry Adams
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Greetings Everyone,
> >
> > Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> > 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning =
of
> > information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
> > SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
> >
> > 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
> > could
> be
> > conveyed without using SCI draft.
> > For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
> > the indicators.
> > We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
> > class,
> if
> > needed.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> >
> > In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
> >
> > Whereas, Kathleen stated,
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> -------------------------
> > For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so =
that's
> why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
> locations or a specific area within the EventData.
> >
> > Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ------------------------
> >
> > Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
> EventData Class.
> >
> > Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
> this
> issue?
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> > _______________________________________________
> > mile mailing list
> > mile@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>=20
>=20




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From: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
To: MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
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Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital point.=
=C2=A0 Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.=C2=A0 It appears t=
hat there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization to be es=
tablished between all Sharing Groups in this regard.

Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of urge=
ncy.
( i.e.=C2=A0 1 =3D Less Likely, =C2=A0 2 =3D Probable,=C2=A0 3 =3D A Concer=
n,=C2=A0 4 =3D=C2=A0 Urgent,=C2=A0 5 =3D Imminent )

Thanks,
C. Henry Adams
=0A

=0A
=0AI see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence t=
he
way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me an IoC
with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a scale o=
f
1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability to
describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly when we
store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are numeric
as well as text.=C2=A0 Makes searching / sorting very problematic.=20

At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly recommend
that we revisit this at some point.=20

Thanks,

--Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Moriarty, Kathleen=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Hi Chris & Take,

I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.=C2=A0 Right now, the schema allo=
ws for
you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and high=
.
Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.=C2=A0 =
If
people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful to hav=
e
guidance.=C2=A0 This could go in the IODE guidance document.

I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches, so
we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is nice to
keep in flexible options where we can.

Thank you,
Kathleen

-----Original Message-----
From: Harrington, Christopher=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs

My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break it
down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on scoring,
rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand low/med/high
without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the level.=20

Low - I am not sure
Medium - I am reasonably sure
High - I am very sure=20


Thanks,

--Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF=
'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to deal
with large sets of indicators.
Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be omitted
if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.

Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence attribute
for the reason Chris kindly described.
I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical? For
instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence", etc?

Thank you.
Take


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have=20
> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>=20
> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>=20
> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute=20
> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect=20
> science by any means.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=20
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Take & others,
>=20
> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a=20
> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.=C2=A0 I'll=20
> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view=20
> point.=C2=A0 We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF tha=
t=20
> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the=20
> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be=20
> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; 'MILE=20
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> > I like this discussion.
> > I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside=20
> > the IOC-related classes.
>=20
> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that=20
> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same=20
> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.=C2=A0 We could as you=
=20
> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.=C2=A0=
=20
> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get=20
> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.=C2=A0 This could=
=20
> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that=20
> could have been shared previously.=C2=A0 If there are a large number of=
=20
> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I=20
> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>=20
> What do others think?
>=20
> >> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not=20
> >> fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for=20
> >> these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?=20
> >> (more details
> on
> >> this in my first message).
> >
> > If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event=20
> > record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the=20
> > XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>=20
> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.=C2=A0 This should go into guidan=
ce=20
> in the SCI draft.=C2=A0 Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>=20
> >
> > For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>=20
> > I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of=20
> > the indicator_set_id.
> > I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids=20
> > and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any=20
> > other way to express these groupings.
> > For instance,=C2=A0 a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids=
.
> In
> > this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>=20
> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or=20
> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?=C2=A0 Would thi=
s=20
> happen?=C2=A0 Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of=20
> indicators in addition to individual indicators?=C2=A0 By using this, it=
=20
> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and relationships=20
> in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it into=20
> the current
structure.
> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some=20
> options, that would be appreciated!
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> > I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
> I
> > think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have=20
> > mis-understood some points.
> >
> > By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
classes'
> > attributes so that they can be correlated with another information=20
> > as
> well.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Take
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a=20
> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If=20
> I give you
> 2
> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of=20
> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would=20
> have the same group ID since they are related.
>=20
> Thanks,
> --Chris
>=20
> From: Stoecker, Paul
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?=C2=A0=
=20
> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the=20
> same group ID.
>=C2=A0 Would this resolve the issue?
>=20
> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)=20
> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them=20
> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go=20
> together.=C2=A0 I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing=
=20
> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the=20
> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared=20
> Incident.=C2=A0 I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a=
=20
> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them=20
> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something=20
> complicated like STIX.
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
>=20
> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE=20
> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Chris,
>=20
> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>=20
> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to=20
> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including=20
> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to=20
> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for=20
> sharing purposes.=C2=A0 It was written before we used terms like=20
> indicators.=C2=A0 With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes=
=20
> back in July, both for guidance and for
format
> updates.=C2=A0 It may help to have the first draft try to address at leas=
t=20
> some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at=20
> least a proposed solution.
>=20
> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between=20
> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that=20
> could have a relationship to each other within a document.=C2=A0 In the=
=20
> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add=20
> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect=20
> the list of included indicators.=C2=A0 I think we should still keep the=
=20
> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list=20
> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.=C2=A0 Rosella had=
=20
> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would=20
> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an AttackType=20
> (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader=20
> term).=C2=A0 It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute valu=
es=20
> like "C2-server", "sinkhole",=C2=A0 "MalwareDistribution" for added conte=
xt=20
> so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.
>=20
> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
indicators,
> add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect=20
> indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of=20
> indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the=20
> connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared=20
> into the base IODEF.
>=20
> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and=20
> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help=20
> Chris below).=C2=A0 What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a=20
> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in=20
> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?=C2=
=A0=20
> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we=20
> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure for=20
> other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System=20
> class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.=C2=A0 Then at the=
=20
> more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an=20
> indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?=C2=A0 Maybe=
=20
> we want indicator_set at the higher level?=C2=A0 I'd like some opinions o=
n=20
> this approach.=C2=A0 +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas=
=20
> that may work better.
>=20
> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent=20
> forward sharing when not permitted.=C2=A0 We may want to use these values=
=20
> or something else.
>=20
> Thank you!
> Kathleen
>=20
> From: Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the=20
> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In=20
> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to=20
> show are
> related:
>=20
> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same threat:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The file hash of a malicious file and the URL =
of the C2 that=20
> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.
>=20
> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same threat:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2 different registry values for the same regis=
try key. If=20
> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not=20
> be
present.
>=20
> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where=20
> both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that=20
> logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send=20
> multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
>=20
> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different=20
> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to=20
> send both the
> MD5
> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the=20
> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use=20
> a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher=20
> level
grouping.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
> Christopher Harrington
> Consulting Security Engineer
> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
> Bedford, MA 01730
> 781-515-5862 (work)
> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> All -
>=20
> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from=20
> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message=20
> and additionally in Paul's message.
>=20
> Interesting point, C. Henry.=C2=A0 Our objective here is to have machine=
=20
> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation=20
> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>=20
> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from=20
> context information that may also include IP address or other data=20
> that could be indicators.=C2=A0 The question I raised was on how to conne=
ct=20
> sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to=20
> have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,=20
> as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded=20
> schemas.
>=20
> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say=20
> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?=C2=A0 Do we use this to ma=
rk=20
> who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing=20
> when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>=20
> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=20
> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off=20
> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on=20
> this in my first message).
>=20
> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical=20
> solution to have this machine automatable.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of C.
> Henry Adams & BIE
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.=C2=A0 I remember when I first ran=
=20
> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a=20
> peculiar question.=C2=A0 He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking=
=20
> the IP Address to your computer?"
>=20
> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>=20
> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off=C2=A0 and the modem that it is
> connected- which is constantly on!"=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0LOL
>=20
> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :=C2=A0 There is a 1st Responder=
=20
> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or=20
> let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.=C2=A0 He /or She needs to=20
> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in=20
> Danger.=C2=A0 The device used to communicate has been captured by the gre=
at=20
> minds of the enemy.=C2=A0 It's only a matter of time before they utilize=
=20
> reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.=C2=A0 However, their=
=20
> pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar=20
> devices to attack.=C2=A0 Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that=
=20
> makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or=20
> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>=20
> Just a visionary thought.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> http://biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20
> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20
> prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>=20
> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with DNS=20
> SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>=20
> Yours Faithfully,
>=20
> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
> SilentCircle=C2=A0 dsm
> 07710 380044
> david.misell@bcs.org
>=20
>=20
> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>=20
> > Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way=20
> > was
> closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,=20
> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds=20
> in some instances."
> >
> > However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.=C2=A0 However, it=
=20
> > would
> be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this=20
> Security Art Form in a negative way.
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> > From:
> > "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> > To:
> > "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> > I would like to look at this from a slightly different
> > perspective=C5=A0let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
> > incident.=C2=A0 This document has source IP and destination IP that is
> > being shared.=C2=A0 However, what I don't know is which IP address is m=
y
> > indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.=C2=A0 Th=
is
> > means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
> > either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even
> > if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
> which
> one I should use as the indicator.
> >
> > If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow
> > us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.=C2=A0 I do admit=
 to
> > being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
> > monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
> > of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
> > document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
> > activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
> >
> >
> > I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
> > flexibility with the indicator_uid.=C2=A0 One thing that I haven't
> > considered is the UID portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?=C2=
=A0 How is
> > the UID created?=C2=A0 Are there standards for UIDs?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> > SMC Lead Content Architect
> > RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> > cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> wrote=
:
> >
> > From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Cc: mile@ietf.org
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
> >
> > Greetings Kathleen,
> >
> > Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
> > many
> avenues you review with this approach at once.=C2=A0 However,=C2=A0 could=
 you share
> a
> few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ----------------------------------------------
> > "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI."
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ---------------------------------------------
> >
> > You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
> > wanted to
> protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
> logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what appears
> to
> be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
> >
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
> <mile@ietf.org>
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
> >
> > Hello C. Henry & others,
> >
> > Thanks for taking a look at this.=C2=A0 We have a few considerations in
> > this
> email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more once
> RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
> >
> > The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
> > non-XML
> extensions.=C2=A0 Where you place the extensions should be specific to th=
e
> logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more about
> the
> included data in most cases.
> >
> > The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on
> the
> report as a whole.=C2=A0 Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher
> (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData extensio=
n
> point.
> >
> > Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
> > that
> would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
> the
> Method class.=C2=A0 He did ask about non-XML.=C2=A0 RecordItem or Additio=
nalData
> do
> allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft
> handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come directl=
y
> off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes sens=
e
> from a logical standpoint.
> >
> > As for my question, it was two-fold.
> >
> > Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
> > various
> indicators they share.=C2=A0 If we are extending to embed other schemas t=
hat
> include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an attribut=
e
> to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?=C2=A0 Is this =
enough
> to make the connections or is something else else needed?=C2=A0 We could =
add
> something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate
> to
> the reference or GUID identifiers.
> >
> > Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not
> > in
> the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" to
> specify the relationships.=C2=A0 In some cases, you will want to group th=
ese
> indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in multipl=
e
> places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
> format.=C2=A0 If
> we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
> should
> we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData class
> AdditionalData extension point?=C2=A0 Opinions are needed here....
> >
> > A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
> indictors into the base IODEF document.=C2=A0 We could have a catch-all c=
lass
> that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we
> could
> continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
> then
> have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.=C2=A0 I think I=
 like
> the latter approach.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Kathleen
> > ________________________________________
> > From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
> > Henry
> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> > To: mile@ietf.org
> > Cc: C. Henry Adams
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Greetings Everyone,
> >
> > Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> > 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
> > information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
> > SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
> >
> > 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
> > could
> be
> > conveyed without using SCI draft.
> > For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
> > the indicators.
> > We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
> > class,
> if
> > needed.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> >
> > In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
> >
> > Whereas, Kathleen stated,
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> -------------------------
> > For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so that's
> why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
> locations or a specific area within the EventData.
> >
> > Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ------------------------
> >
> > Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
> EventData Class.
> >
> > Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
> this
> issue?
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> > _______________________________________________
> > mile mailing list
> > mile@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>=20
> 
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><br>Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compr=
omise, Chris made a vital point.&nbsp; Different Confidence levels will cau=
se confusion.&nbsp; It appears that there maybe a need for some type of sim=
plified standardization to be established between all Sharing Groups in thi=
s regard.<br><br>Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should expre=
ss levels of urgency.<br>( i.e.&nbsp; 1 =3D Less Likely, &nbsp; 2 =3D Proba=
ble,&nbsp; 3 =3D A Concern,&nbsp; 4 =3D&nbsp; Urgent,&nbsp; 5 =3D Imminent =
)<br><br>Thanks,<br>C. Henry Adams<br>=0A<br><br>=0A<br>=0AI see some confu=
sion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence the<br>way it is sup=
ported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me an IoC<br>with a sc=
ore of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a scale of<br>1 to=
 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability to<br>desc=
ribe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly when we<br>s=
tore IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are numeric<b=
r>as well as text.&nbsp; Makes searching / sorting very problematic. <br><b=
r>At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly recomme=
nd<br>that we revisit this at some point. <br><br>Thanks,<br><br>--Chris<br=
><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Moriarty, Kathleen <br>Sent: Tuesd=
ay, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM<br>To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Taka=
hashi'; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE<br>IETF'<br>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br><br>H=
i Chris &amp; Take,<br><br>I'll just focus on the
 confidence scoring.&nbsp; Right now, the schema allows for<br>you to eithe=
r use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and high.<br>Differe=
nt sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.&nbsp; If<br>p=
eople were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful to have=
<br>guidance.&nbsp; This could go in the IODE guidance document.<br><br>I h=
ave seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches, so<br>w=
e'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is nice to<=
br>keep in flexible options where we can.<br><br>Thank you,<br>Kathleen<br>=
<br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Harrington, Christopher <br>Sent: T=
uesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM<br>To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kat=
hleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'<br>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br><br>The n=
umber of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of<br>indicator_set_=
id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP<br>addresses
 that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have<br>separate in=
dicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs<br><br>My suggestion would b=
e a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break it<br>down to more levels=
 than that we would need to provide guidance on scoring,<br>rating, etc. I =
think most people should be able to understand low/med/high<br>without havi=
ng to have a mathematical method for arriving at the level. <br><br>Low - I=
 am not sure<br>Medium - I am reasonably sure<br>High - I am very sure <br>=
<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>--Chris<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: T=
akeshi Takahashi [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp">takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>] <br=
>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM<br>To: Harrington, Christopher; M=
oriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'<br>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<=
br><br>Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we
 need to deal<br>with large sets of indicators.<br>Since indicator_set_id a=
ttribute is optional (right?), it could be omitted<br>if we need to deal wi=
th only small number of indicators.<br><br>Regarding the use case, I like t=
he idea of using the confidence attribute<br>for the reason Chris kindly de=
scribed.<br>I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be nume=
rical? For<br>instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confi=
dence", etc?<br><br>Thank you.<br>Take<br><br><br>&gt; -----Original Messag=
e-----<br>&gt; From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.m=
c534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.com">Christo=
pher.Harrington@emc.com</a>]<br>&gt; Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 A=
M<br>&gt; To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE =
IETF'<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; With respect to tyi=
ng things back to threat actors, from what I have <br>&gt; seen and use
 this is a generally accepted grouping:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Indicator --&gt; I=
ndictor Set --&gt; Campaign --&gt; Threat Actor<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Campaign a=
nd Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute <br>&gt; would be=
 beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect <br>&gt; science =
by any means.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --Chris<br>&gt; <br=
>&gt; <br>&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; From: Moriarty, Kathleen<=
br>&gt; Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM<br>&gt; To: Takeshi Takah=
ashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE <br>&gt; IETF'<br>&gt;=
 Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hi Take &amp; others,<br>&gt; <b=
r>&gt; Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a=
 <br>&gt; few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.&nbsp;=
 I'll <br>&gt; provide an option below from what we have discussed from a C=
IRC view <br>&gt; point.&nbsp; We are also wondering how to also
 provide logic in IODEF that <br>&gt; could cross over into SCI attached sc=
hemas or IODEF extensions (the <br>&gt; solutions may all tie together with=
 this discussion - or there may be <br>&gt; better/more elegant solutions o=
thers would like to propose).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; -----Original Message-----<b=
r>&gt; From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp">takeshi_takahashi@nict.=
go.jp</a>]<br>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM<br>&gt; To: Ha=
rrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; 'MILE <br>&gt; I=
ETF'<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; I like this dis=
cussion.<br>&gt; &gt; I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator iden=
tifiers inside <br>&gt; &gt; the IOC-related classes.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; KMM:=
 At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that <br>&gt; sh=
ould be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
 <br>&gt; class that is a related issue, but a separate set.&nbsp; We could=
 as you <br>&gt; say, list the indicator IDs connected through the referenc=
e class.&nbsp; <br>&gt; The set IDs might give us other ways to group the v=
alues when we get <br>&gt; into logic and relationships between sets or ind=
icators.&nbsp; This could <br>&gt; also be a way to connect indicators or s=
ets across XML documents that <br>&gt; could have been shared previously.&n=
bsp; If there are a large number of <br>&gt; indicators in the set, then th=
is becomes useful, for smaller sets, I <br>&gt; agree it doesn't make as mu=
ch sense.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; What do others think?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not <br>&gt; &=
gt;&gt; fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for <br>=
&gt; &gt;&gt; these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData=
? <br>&gt; &gt;&gt; (more details<br>&gt; on<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; this
 in my first message).<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; If we could see any indica=
tor of compromise as computer event <br>&gt; &gt; record, we could use SCI:=
EventReport class as the place for the <br>&gt; &gt; XML-based IOCs that co=
uldn't fit anywhere else.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; KMM: That sounds like a good ide=
a to me.&nbsp; This should go into guidance <br>&gt; in the SCI draft.&nbsp=
; Does anyone else want to weigh in?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; For=
 the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.<br>&gt; KMM=
: Sounds good, thanks!<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; I agree to have indicator_uid,=
 but I am not sure about the needs of <br>&gt; &gt; the indicator_set_id.<b=
r>&gt; &gt; I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_=
uids <br>&gt; &gt; and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not h=
ave any <br>&gt; &gt; other way to express these groupings.<br>&gt; &gt; Fo=
r instance,&nbsp; a Reference class refers to several
 indicadtor_uids.<br>&gt; In<br>&gt; &gt; this case, they could be, in a se=
nse, grouped. Isn't it enough?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; KMM: It may be, what do you=
 think about large sets of indicators or <br>&gt; subsequent messages that =
add indicators to existing sets?&nbsp; Would this <br>&gt; happen?&nbsp; Wo=
uld it be easier to express relationships with sets of <br>&gt; indicators =
in addition to individual indicators?&nbsp; By using this, it <br>&gt; coul=
d give us a unique way to also provide the logic and relationships <br>&gt;=
 in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it into <br=
>&gt; the current<br>structure.<br>&gt; If there are better ways to handle =
that, and others can provide some <br>&gt; options, that would be appreciat=
ed!<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thank you,<br>&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; I wo=
uld appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though<br>&gt; I<b=
r>&gt; &gt; think I have read all the emails in the list, I might
 have <br>&gt; &gt; mis-understood some points.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; B=
y the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI<br>classes=
'<br>&gt; &gt; attributes so that they can be correlated with another infor=
mation <br>&gt; &gt; as<br>&gt; well.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>&=
gt; &gt; Take<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: <a href=3D"http://us=
.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@i=
etf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf <br>&gt; Of =
Harrington, Christopher<br>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM<br=
>&gt; To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF<br>&gt; Subject: Re=
: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I think some sort of group ID would do the t=
rick. We also need a <br>&gt; logical and / or somewhere to show relationsh=
ip between indicators. If <br>&gt; I give you<br>&gt; 2<br>&gt; registry
 keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of <br>&gt; compr=
omise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would <br>&gt; have=
 the same group ID since they are related.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;=
 --Chris<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: Stoecker, Paul<br>&gt; Sent: Sunday, Februa=
ry 03, 2013 8:26 PM<br>&gt; To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher=
; MILE IETF<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; What if we ad=
ded indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?&nbsp; <br>&gt; This wo=
uld allow you to group indicators that are related into the <br>&gt; same g=
roup ID.<br>&gt;&nbsp; Would this resolve the issue?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; It is=
 either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators) <br>&gt; c=
lass that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them <br>&g=
t; into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go <br>&gt; t=
ogether.&nbsp; I don't mean a place to put indicators that are
 missing <br>&gt; from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you=
 put the <br>&gt; indicators that are used for detection and prevention of =
the shared <br>&gt; Incident.&nbsp; I don't know the answer here, but there=
 has got to be a <br>&gt; good way for indicators to be identified and bein=
g able to group them <br>&gt; as Chris has suggested without basically recr=
eating something <br>&gt; complicated like STIX.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul<br>&=
gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<br>&gt; SMC Lead Content Arch=
itect<br>&gt; RSA, The Security Division of EMC<br>&gt; cell: 302.379.3375 =
| e: <a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecke=
r@rsa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: &lt;Mo=
riarty&gt;, Kathleen &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt=
; Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM<br>&gt; To: "Harrington,
 Christopher" &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.com">Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>&gt;, =
MILE <br>&gt; IETF &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs=
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hi Chris,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I agree, we have some work to =
do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The list has already=
 said they would like to see indicators added to <br>&gt; the definitions i=
n RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including <br>&gt; indicators and =
sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to <br>&gt; 'parts of an in=
cident or the useful information on an incident for <br>&gt; sharing purpos=
es.&nbsp; It was written before we used terms like <br>&gt; indicators.&nbs=
p; With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes <br>&gt; back in=
 July, both for guidance and for<br>format<br>&gt; updates.&nbsp; It may he=
lp
 to have the first draft try to address at least <br>&gt; some of these iss=
ues so people can understand the problems and at <br>&gt; least a proposed =
solution.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; As you point out, we need to be able to show rel=
ationships between <br>&gt; sets of indicators, where we may have a few set=
s of indicators that <br>&gt; could have a relationship to each other withi=
n a document.&nbsp; In the <br>&gt; July presentation, one of the questions=
 was to see if we should add <br>&gt; new category attribute values for the=
 System class that would connect <br>&gt; the list of included indicators.&=
nbsp; I think we should still keep the <br>&gt; concept of a Node to a sing=
le node, but perhaps within System, list <br>&gt; multiple sets of Nodes th=
at may be one type of attack.&nbsp; Rosella had <br>&gt; suggested pulling =
forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would <br>&gt; help solve the is=
sue as NodeRole values would compliment an AttackType <br>&gt;
 (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader <br>&gt;=
 term).&nbsp; It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute value=
s <br>&gt; like "C2-server", "sinkhole",&nbsp; "MalwareDistribution" for ad=
ded context <br>&gt; so you know what to do with the received set of indica=
tors.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multi=
ple sets of<br>indicators,<br>&gt; add an AttackType attribute (or some oth=
er name), a method to connect <br>&gt; indicators and indicator sets within=
 an IODEF using an attribute of <br>&gt; indicator_uid (or some other name)=
 with a string value to make the <br>&gt; connection points, and add a few =
indicators that are commonly shared <br>&gt; into the base IODEF.<br>&gt; <=
br>&gt; Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and <=
br>&gt; hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help =
<br>&gt; Chris below).&nbsp; What if we added the Registry Key/Value
 pairs as a <br>&gt; class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to =
what is in <br>&gt; RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes i=
n RecordData?&nbsp; <br>&gt; I think if we then had the indicator_uid at th=
e RecordData level, we <br>&gt; could connect a set within that structure a=
nd repeat the structure for <br>&gt; other sets in the same way we would do=
 with Node inside of the System <br>&gt; class, using the indicator_uid to =
tie the set together.&nbsp; Then at the <br>&gt; more specific level for th=
e hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an <br>&gt; indicator_uid if we ne=
eded them marked at this level as well?&nbsp; Maybe <br>&gt; we want indica=
tor_set at the higher level?&nbsp; I'd like some opinions on <br>&gt; this =
approach.&nbsp; +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas <br>&g=
t; that may work better.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; We'll also need to worry about ma=
rking the indicators to prevent <br>&gt; forward sharing when not
 permitted.&nbsp; We may want to use these values <br>&gt; or something els=
e.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thank you!<br>&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: Harr=
ington, Christopher<br>&gt; Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM<br>&gt=
; To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt=
; <br>&gt; I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use =
the <br>&gt; Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one mess=
age. In <br>&gt; that message we could have groupings of indicators that we=
 need to <br>&gt; show are<br>&gt; related:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Two or more in=
dicators of different type that relate to the same threat:<br>&gt;&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 =
that <br>&gt; the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a co=
mpromise.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Two or more indicators of the same type that rel=
ate to the same threat:<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2
 different registry values for the same registry key. If <br>&gt; either va=
lue is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not <br>&gt; be<b=
r>present.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The problem compounds itself very quickly. Cons=
ider the scenario where <br>&gt; both groupings above are part of the same =
threat. I need to show that <br>&gt; logical groupings of Indicators are re=
lated as well. We can't send <br>&gt; multiple IODEF messages for this from=
 what I remember reading.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The last one I can think of woul=
d be when you have 2 different <br>&gt; indicators that represent the same =
indicator. It's not uncommon to <br>&gt; send both the<br>&gt; MD5<br>&gt; =
and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the <br>&g=
t; IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use <=
br>&gt; a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a highe=
r <br>&gt; level<br>grouping.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thoughts?<br>&gt;
 <br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --Chris<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Christopher Har=
rington<br>&gt; Consulting Security Engineer<br>&gt; GSO - Critical Inciden=
t Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives<br>&gt; 174 Middlesex Turnp=
ike<br>&gt; Bedford, MA 01730<br>&gt; 781-515-5862 (work)<br>&gt; 603-583-1=
585 (cell)<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: <a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com=
/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<=
a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf <br>&gt; Of Moriarty, Kathleen<br=
>&gt; Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM<br>&gt; To: MILE IETF<br>&gt=
; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; All -<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I'd like=
 your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from <br>&gt; the l=
ist on options to help solve the problems raised in my message <br>&gt; and=
 additionally in Paul's message.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Interesting point, C.
 Henry.&nbsp; Our objective here is to have machine <br>&gt; automated exch=
anges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation <br>&gt; to achieve=
 the necessary level of confidentiality.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul mentioned th=
e need to distinguish indicators of compromise from <br>&gt; context inform=
ation that may also include IP address or other data <br>&gt; that could be=
 indicators.&nbsp; The question I raised was on how to connect <br>&gt; set=
s of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to <br>&gt=
; have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included, <br>=
&gt; as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded <br>=
&gt; schemas.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; If we add an attribute on all of the relevan=
t indicators, let's say <br>&gt; 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicat=
ors?&nbsp; Do we use this to mark <br>&gt; who sent the indicator as well s=
o that we can prevent forward sharing <br>&gt; when it is not
 permitted or handle that separately?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Then for indicators =
not included in the base schema that may not fit <br>&gt; into a category i=
n the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off <br>&gt; of SCI or righ=
t off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on <br>&gt; this in my=
 first message).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Comments and questions encouraged to figu=
re out the right technical <br>&gt; solution to have this machine automatab=
le.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thank you,<br>&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.or=
g">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.=
com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Be=
half <br>&gt; Of C.<br>&gt; Henry Adams &amp; BIE<br>&gt; Sent: Monday, Jan=
uary 28, 2013 11:25 PM<br>&gt; To: MILE IETF<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IO=
Cs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp; I remembe=
r
 when I first ran <br>&gt; across this particular craft, an experienced col=
league asked me a <br>&gt; peculiar question.&nbsp; He said, " How do you s=
top someone from tracking <br>&gt; the IP Address to your computer?"<br>&gt=
; <br>&gt; I replied, "I don't know, how?"<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Then he said, "=
Cut the dog-gone thing off&nbsp; and the modem that it is<br>&gt; connected=
- which is constantly on!"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;LOL<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Here's my =
point (Hypothetical Situation) :&nbsp; There is a 1st Responder <br>&gt; se=
arching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or <br>&g=
t; let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.&nbsp; He /or She needs to <br=
>&gt; communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in <br>&=
gt; Danger.&nbsp; The device used to communicate has been captured by the g=
reat <br>&gt; minds of the enemy.&nbsp; It's only a matter of time before t=
hey utilize <br>&gt; reverse engineering to figure out how it
 functions.&nbsp; However, their <br>&gt; pride comes before a fall when se=
eking the location of other similar <br>&gt; devices to attack.&nbsp; Why? =
Perhaps the less thought of concepts that <br>&gt; makes the device functio=
n properly, saves the day by disguise or <br>&gt; cutting it off (figurativ=
ely speaking).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Just a visionary thought.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&=
gt; <a href=3D"http://biemediagroup.com" target=3D"_blank">http://biemediag=
roup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The information contained herein is =
for the exclusive use of the <br>&gt; original recipient. This information =
is granted for limited <br>&gt; distribution within the recipient's place o=
f business for planning <br>&gt; purposes only. Further dissemination, whet=
her private or public is <br>&gt; prohibited.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Mon,
 1/28/13, Dave Misell &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/comp=
ose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; From: Dave Misell &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc=
/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Su=
bject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: "C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE" &lt;<a href=
=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">c=
hatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 P=
M UID could be mirrored with DNS <br>&gt; SEC a pemanent and temporal key, =
with a temporal Id?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Yours Faithfully,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Dav=
e Misell MSc CISSP<br>&gt; SilentCircle&nbsp; dsm<br>&gt; 07710 380044<br>&=
gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@=
bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; On 29 Jan 2013,=
 at 00:39, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.c=
om">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; Seri=
alization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way <br>&gt; &gt=
; was<br>&gt; closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,=
 <br>&gt; "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant m=
inds <br>&gt; in some instances."<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; However, I see =
Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.&nbsp; However, it <br>&gt; &gt; woul=
d<br>&gt; be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study=
 this <br>&gt; Security Art Form in a negative way.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &g=
t; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc=
/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Emai=
l) <a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@bi=
emediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;
 &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The information contained herein is for the exclusive us=
e of the<br>&gt; &gt; original<br>&gt; recipient. This information is grant=
ed for limited distribution within<br>&gt; the<br>&gt; recipient's place of=
 business for planning purposes only. Further<br>&gt; dissemination, whethe=
r private or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Re: [mile] IOC=
s<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM<br>&gt; &gt; F=
rom:<br>&gt; &gt; "Stoecker, Paul" &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;<=
br>&gt; &gt; To:<br>&gt; &gt; "<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc=
/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc=
534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>=
&gt; &gt; I would like to look at this from a slightly different<br>&gt; &g=
t; perspective=C5=A0let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an<=
br>&gt;
 &gt; incident.&nbsp; This document has source IP and destination IP that i=
s<br>&gt; &gt; being shared.&nbsp; However, what I don't know is which IP a=
ddress is my<br>&gt; &gt; indicator and which is just a contextual piece of=
 information.&nbsp; This<br>&gt; &gt; means that my detection product isn't=
 going to know which one to use<br>&gt; &gt; either, because there is nothi=
ng to tell me which IP is the one, even<br>&gt; &gt; if the roles are set i=
t still might not be enough to tell my system<br>&gt; which<br>&gt; one I s=
hould use as the indicator.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; If we had something l=
ike indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow<br>&gt; &gt; us to easily =
identify indicators from contextual data.&nbsp; I do admit to<br>&gt; &gt; =
being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the<br>&gt; &gt; =
monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking<br>&gt=
; &gt; of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the
 XML<br>&gt; &gt; document and the other data that may be important as I in=
vestigate<br>&gt; &gt; activity that I have detected off of those indicator=
s.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I did suggest the detection class=
, but I think we may get more<br>&gt; &gt; flexibility with the indicator_u=
id.&nbsp; One thing that I haven't<br>&gt; &gt; considered is the UID porti=
on of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?&nbsp; How is<br>&gt; &gt; the UID c=
reated?&nbsp; Are there standards for UIDs?<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Regar=
ds,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Paul<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<b=
r>&gt; &gt; Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<br>&gt; &gt; SMC Lead Content Architect=
<br>&gt; &gt; RSA, The Security Division of EMC<br>&gt; &gt; cell: 302.379.=
3375 | e: <a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.st=
oecker@rsa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; --- On =
Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.c=
om">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; From: C.=
 Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/com=
pose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;=
 Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; &gt; To: "KathleenMoriarty" &lt;<a href=
=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.co=
m">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"http://us.=
mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&g=
t; &gt; Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;=
 Greetings Kathleen,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Your logic stimulates my vis=
ionary brain because I'm amazed at the<br>&gt; &gt; many<br>&gt; avenues yo=
u review with this approach at once.&nbsp; However,&nbsp; could you share<b=
r>&gt; a<br>&gt; few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?<br>&gt; &g=
t;<br>&gt;
 &gt;<br>&gt; -------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>&gt; --------<br>&gt; ------------------------------------------=
----<br>&gt; &gt; "we could continue to group items in logical places as is=
 done now in<br>&gt; IODEF and then have the extension point for combined i=
ndicators via SCI."<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; ---------------------=
-----------------------------------------------<br>&gt; --------<br>&gt; --=
-------------------------------------------<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; You p=
ointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I<br>&gt; &gt; wa=
nted to<br>&gt; protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it=
 from your<br>&gt; logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a deg=
ree what appears<br>&gt; to<br>&gt; be illogical in brilliant minds in some=
 instances.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; C. Henry Ad=
ams<br>&gt; &gt; <a
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.c=
om">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)<br>&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http:/=
/us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">che=
nryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The information co=
ntained herein is for the exclusive use of the<br>&gt; &gt; original<br>&gt=
; recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within<br=
>&gt; the<br>&gt; recipient's place of business for planning purposes only.=
 Further<br>&gt; dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.<br=
>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a href=
=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.co=
m">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &g=
t; From: Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/m=
c/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;=
<br>&gt;
 &gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; &gt; To: "C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE" =
&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@y=
ahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, "<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.y=
ahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>"<br>&gt; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM<br>=
&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Hello C. Henry &amp; others,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &g=
t; Thanks for taking a look at this.&nbsp; We have a few considerations in<=
br>&gt; &gt; this<br>&gt; email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (an=
d there may be more once<br>&gt; RFC5070-bis is actively edited).<br>&gt; &=
gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both all=
ow for<br>&gt; &gt; non-XML<br>&gt; extensions.&nbsp; Where you place the e=
xtensions should be specific to the<br>&gt; logical grouping of the parent
 elements so you can understand more about<br>&gt; the<br>&gt; included dat=
a in most cases.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The Impact class can be used to =
provide context information on the<br>&gt; included data of the report and =
also can include a confidence rating on<br>&gt; the<br>&gt; report as a who=
le.&nbsp; Extensions related to impact would be one level higher<br>&gt; (a=
t the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData extension<br=
>&gt; point.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Take asked about including vulnerabi=
lity information, I would think<br>&gt; &gt; that<br>&gt; would fit under t=
he Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in<br>&gt; the<br>&gt; Me=
thod class.&nbsp; He did ask about non-XML.&nbsp; RecordItem or AdditionalD=
ata<br>&gt; do<br>&gt; allow for non-XML extension points, we could either =
have the SCI draft<br>&gt; handle these as well or have the extensions that=
 are non-XML come directly<br>&gt; off the AdditionalData or
 RecordItem classes according to what makes sense<br>&gt; from a logical st=
andpoint.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; As for my question, it was two-fold.<br=
>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Indicator based schemas have a reference number or =
a GUID for the<br>&gt; &gt; various<br>&gt; indicators they share.&nbsp; If=
 we are extending to embed other schemas that<br>&gt; include such referenc=
e or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an attribute<br>&gt; to the variou=
s elements in IODEF that could be indicators?&nbsp; Is this enough<br>&gt; =
to make the connections or is something else else needed?&nbsp; We could ad=
d<br>&gt; something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then co=
rrelate<br>&gt; to<br>&gt; the reference or GUID identifiers.<br>&gt; &gt;<=
br>&gt; &gt; Then the other question was on how to include indicators that =
are not<br>&gt; &gt; in<br>&gt; the base schema that may be related or have=
 language with "and" "or" to<br>&gt; specify the
 relationships.&nbsp; In some cases, you will want to group these<br>&gt; i=
ndictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in multiple<b=
r>&gt; places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data<br>=
&gt; format.&nbsp; If<br>&gt; we have cases like this where you need more c=
omplex representations,<br>&gt; should<br>&gt; we use one extension point v=
ia the SCI draft off of the EventData class<br>&gt; AdditionalData extensio=
n point?&nbsp; Opinions are needed here....<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; A few=
 people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared<br>&gt; indi=
ctors into the base IODEF document.&nbsp; We could have a catch-all class<b=
r>&gt; that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or =
we<br>&gt; could<br>&gt; continue to group items in logical places as is do=
ne now in IODEF and<br>&gt; then<br>&gt; have the extension point for combi=
ned indicators via SCI.&nbsp; I think I like<br>&gt; the latter
 approach.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Thank you,<br>&gt; &gt; Kathleen<br>&g=
t; &gt; ________________________________________<br>&gt; &gt; From: <a href=
=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">m=
ile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/comp=
ose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of C.<=
br>&gt; &gt; Henry<br>&gt; Adams &amp; BIE [<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
]<br>&gt; &gt; Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM<br>&gt; &gt; To: <a=
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile=
@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt; Cc: C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [mi=
le] IOCs<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Greetings Everyone,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;=
 &gt; Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :<br>&gt; &gt;<br=
>&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------<=
br>&gt;
 --------<br>&gt; --------------------------<br>&gt; &gt; 1) If the indicat=
ors are something like an XML-based alert/warning of<br>&gt; &gt; informati=
on leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the<br>&gt; &gt; SCI'=
s EventReport class, IMHO.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; 2) If the indicators a=
re something like an non-XML ones, I guess it<br>&gt; &gt; could<br>&gt; be=
<br>&gt; &gt; conveyed without using SCI draft.<br>&gt; &gt; For instance, =
we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey<br>&gt; &gt; the indi=
cators.<br>&gt; &gt; We could for instance extend the list of indicators of=
 the Impact<br>&gt; &gt; class,<br>&gt; if<br>&gt; &gt; needed.<br>&gt; &gt=
;<br>&gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>&gt; --------<br>&gt; --------------------------<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt=
; &gt; In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &=
gt; Whereas, Kathleen stated,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;
 --------------------------------------------------------------------<br>&g=
t; --------<br>&gt; -------------------------<br>&gt; &gt; For the discussi=
on below, I was thinking more of combined set with<br>&gt; relationships th=
at may be included in a single extension point, so that's<br>&gt; why I was=
 thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better<br>&gt; locati=
ons or a specific area within the EventData.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Paul=
 Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.<br>&gt; &gt=
;<br>&gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>&gt; --------<br>&gt; ------------------------<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt; Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the<br>&=
gt; EventData Class.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Is there a possible way to c=
reate a new XML class which encompass<br>&gt; combining the EventData, Dete=
ction and base IODEF classes to simplify<br>&gt; this<br>&gt;
 issue?<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; &gt; =
<a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo=
.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)<br>&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http=
://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">c=
henryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The=
 information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the<br>&gt; &gt; =
original<br>&gt; recipient. This information is granted for limited distrib=
ution within<br>&gt; the<br>&gt; recipient's place of business for planning=
 purposes only. Further<br>&gt; dissemination, whether private or public is=
 prohibited.<br>&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<b=
r>&gt; &gt; mile mailing list<br>&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.=
yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile"
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><br>&gt; <=
br>&gt; </td></tr></table>
--1458340343-1531119564-1360698335=:82136--

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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 15:56:50 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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From: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
To: MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
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RFC5070 Chapter 3 section 10 item 4 does not appear to restrict conflation =
of a numeric value and its definition. I would guess that what I'm really t=
rying to state here is there should perhaps be a simple standardization est=
ablish in a sort of an Alpha-numeric value if possible as oppose to a numer=
ic value.

Please see (Revision) below:
( i.e.=C2=A0 1LL =3D Less Likely, =C2=A0 2P =3D Probable,=C2=A0 3AC =3D A C=
oncern,=C2=A0 4U =3D=C2=A0 Urgent,=C2=A0 5I =3D Imminent )

I would concur, perhaps Sharing Groups regarding the IODEF should be given =
a survey of some kind to address potential issues with the High, Medium, Lo=
w assessment combined with a numeric rating=C2=A0 0 - 100 to possibly revis=
it creating a simplified approach.








Please=0A see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.=C2=A0 We can c=
hange it if=0A it needs to be changed.=C2=A0 The value is for a confidence =
rating on the =0Aindicators shared.=C2=A0 The definitions may be helpful fo=
r anyone who wants =0Ato work on this discussion.=C2=A0 IODEF has various m=
arkers that can be used =0Ain a complimentary way without conflating the ma=
rkers meaning. =C2=A0I=0A think some people using IODEF find the numerical =
values more helpful, =0Aand it would be good to understand what people have=
 learned from using =0Athe current structure (what works/does not work).=C2=
=A0 The scales I have =0Aseen are 0-100.=C2=A0 There is of course a subject=
ive element to assigning a =0Anumerical value to the confidence and it may =
vary from entity to =0Aentity.=C2=A0 With this type of rating you may need =
to consider who it came =0Afrom and how they scored the confidence rating t=
o map to your own =0Arating.=C2=A0 It would be good to hear more thoughts o=
n this.=C2=A0  =C2=A0Thanks,Kathleen =C2=A0From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mail=
to:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
To: MILE IETF
Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs =C2=A0
Regarding=0A the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital point=
.=C2=A0 =0ADifferent Confidence levels will cause confusion.=C2=A0 It appea=
rs that there=0A maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization t=
o be =0Aestablished between all Sharing Groups in this regard.

Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of urge=
ncy.
( i.e.=C2=A0 1 =3D Less Likely, =C2=A0 2 =3D Probable,=C2=A0 3 =3D A Concer=
n,=C2=A0 4 =3D=C2=A0 Urgent,=C2=A0 5 =3D Imminent )

Thanks,
C. Henry Adams



I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence the
way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me an IoC
with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a scale o=
f
1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability to
describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly when we
store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are numeric
as well as text.=C2=A0 Makes searching / sorting very problematic.=20

At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly recommend
that we revisit this at some point.=20

Thanks,

--Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Moriarty, Kathleen=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Hi Chris & Take,

I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.=C2=A0 Right now, the schema allo=
ws for
you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and high=
.
Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.=C2=A0 =
If
people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful to hav=
e
guidance.=C2=A0 This could go in the IODE guidance document.

I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches, so
we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is nice to
keep in flexible options where we can.

Thank you,
Kathleen

-----Original Message-----
From: Harrington, Christopher=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs

My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break it
down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on scoring,
rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand low/med/high
without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the level.=20

Low - I am not sure
Medium - I am reasonably sure
High - I am very sure=20


Thanks,

--Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF=
'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to deal
with large sets of indicators.
Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be omitted
if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.

Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence attribute
for the reason Chris kindly described.
I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical? For
instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence", etc?

Thank you.
Take


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have=20
> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>=20
> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>=20
> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute=20
> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect=20
> science by any means.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=20
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Take & others,
>=20
> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a=20
> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.=C2=A0 I'll=20
> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view=20
> point.=C2=A0 We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF tha=
t=20
> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the=20
> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be=20
> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; 'MILE=20
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> > I like this discussion.
> > I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside=20
> > the IOC-related classes.
>=20
> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that=20
> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same=20
> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.=C2=A0 We could as you=
=20
> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.=C2=A0=
=20
> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get=20
> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.=C2=A0 This could=
=20
> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that=20
> could have been shared previously.=C2=A0 If there are a large number of=
=20
> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I=20
> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>=20
> What do others think?
>=20
> >> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not=20
> >> fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for=20
> >> these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?=20
> >> (more details
> on
> >> this in my first message).
> >
> > If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event=20
> > record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the=20
> > XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>=20
> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.=C2=A0 This should go into guidan=
ce=20
> in the SCI draft.=C2=A0 Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>=20
> >
> > For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>=20
> > I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of=20
> > the indicator_set_id.
> > I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids=20
> > and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any=20
> > other way to express these groupings.
> > For instance,=C2=A0 a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids=
.
> In
> > this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>=20
> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or=20
> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?=C2=A0 Would thi=
s=20
> happen?=C2=A0 Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of=20
> indicators in addition to individual indicators?=C2=A0 By using this, it=
=20
> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and relationships=20
> in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it into=20
> the current
structure.
> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some=20
> options, that would be appreciated!
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> > I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
> I
> > think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have=20
> > mis-understood some points.
> >
> > By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
classes'
> > attributes so that they can be correlated with another information=20
> > as
> well.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Take
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a=20
> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If=20
> I give you
> 2
> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of=20
> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would=20
> have the same group ID since they are related.
>=20
> Thanks,
> --Chris
>=20
> From: Stoecker, Paul
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?=C2=A0=
=20
> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the=20
> same group ID.
>=C2=A0 Would this resolve the issue?
>=20
> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)=20
> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them=20
> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go=20
> together.=C2=A0 I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing=
=20
> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the=20
> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared=20
> Incident.=C2=A0 I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a=
=20
> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them=20
> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something=20
> complicated like STIX.
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
>=20
> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE=20
> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Chris,
>=20
> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>=20
> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to=20
> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including=20
> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to=20
> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for=20
> sharing purposes.=C2=A0 It was written before we used terms like=20
> indicators.=C2=A0 With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes=
=20
> back in July, both for guidance and for
format
> updates.=C2=A0 It may help to have the first draft try to address at leas=
t=20
> some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at=20
> least a proposed solution.
>=20
> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between=20
> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that=20
> could have a relationship to each other within a document.=C2=A0 In the=
=20
> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add=20
> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect=20
> the list of included indicators.=C2=A0 I think we should still keep the=
=20
> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list=20
> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.=C2=A0 Rosella had=
=20
> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would=20
> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an AttackType=20
> (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader=20
> term).=C2=A0 It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute valu=
es=20
> like "C2-server", "sinkhole",=C2=A0 "MalwareDistribution" for added conte=
xt=20
> so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.
>=20
> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
indicators,
> add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect=20
> indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of=20
> indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the=20
> connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared=20
> into the base IODEF.
>=20
> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and=20
> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help=20
> Chris below).=C2=A0 What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a=20
> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in=20
> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?=C2=
=A0=20
> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we=20
> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure for=20
> other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System=20
> class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.=C2=A0 Then at the=
=20
> more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an=20
> indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?=C2=A0 Maybe=
=20
> we want indicator_set at the higher level?=C2=A0 I'd like some opinions o=
n=20
> this approach.=C2=A0 +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas=
=20
> that may work better.
>=20
> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent=20
> forward sharing when not permitted.=C2=A0 We may want to use these values=
=20
> or something else.
>=20
> Thank you!
> Kathleen
>=20
> From: Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the=20
> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In=20
> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to=20
> show are
> related:
>=20
> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same threat:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The file hash of a malicious file and the URL =
of the C2 that=20
> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.
>=20
> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same threat:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2 different registry values for the same regis=
try key. If=20
> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not=20
> be
present.
>=20
> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where=20
> both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that=20
> logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send=20
> multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
>=20
> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different=20
> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to=20
> send both the
> MD5
> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the=20
> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use=20
> a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher=20
> level
grouping.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
> Christopher Harrington
> Consulting Security Engineer
> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
> Bedford, MA 01730
> 781-515-5862 (work)
> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> All -
>=20
> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from=20
> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message=20
> and additionally in Paul's message.
>=20
> Interesting point, C. Henry.=C2=A0 Our objective here is to have machine=
=20
> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation=20
> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>=20
> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from=20
> context information that may also include IP address or other data=20
> that could be indicators.=C2=A0 The question I raised was on how to conne=
ct=20
> sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to=20
> have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,=20
> as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded=20
> schemas.
>=20
> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say=20
> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?=C2=A0 Do we use this to ma=
rk=20
> who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing=20
> when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>=20
> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=20
> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off=20
> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on=20
> this in my first message).
>=20
> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical=20
> solution to have this machine automatable.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of C.
> Henry Adams & BIE
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.=C2=A0 I remember when I first ran=
=20
> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a=20
> peculiar question.=C2=A0 He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking=
=20
> the IP Address to your computer?"
>=20
> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>=20
> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off=C2=A0 and the modem that it is
> connected- which is constantly on!"=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0LOL
>=20
> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :=C2=A0 There is a 1st Responder=
=20
> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or=20
> let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.=C2=A0 He /or She needs to=20
> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in=20
> Danger.=C2=A0 The device used to communicate has been captured by the gre=
at=20
> minds of the enemy.=C2=A0 It's only a matter of time before they utilize=
=20
> reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.=C2=A0 However, their=
=20
> pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar=20
> devices to attack.=C2=A0 Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that=
=20
> makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or=20
> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>=20
> Just a visionary thought.
>=20
> C. Henry Adams
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> http://biemediagroup.com
>=20
>=20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20
> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20
> prohibited.
>=20
> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>=20
> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with DNS=20
> SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>=20
> Yours Faithfully,
>=20
> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
> SilentCircle=C2=A0 dsm
> 07710 380044
> david.misell@bcs.org
>=20
>=20
> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>=20
> > Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way=20
> > was
> closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,=20
> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds=20
> in some instances."
> >
> > However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.=C2=A0 However, it=
=20
> > would
> be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this=20
> Security Art Form in a negative way.
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> > From:
> > "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> > To:
> > "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> > I would like to look at this from a slightly different
> > perspective=C5=A0let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
> > incident.=C2=A0 This document has source IP and destination IP that is
> > being shared.=C2=A0 However, what I don't know is which IP address is m=
y
> > indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.=C2=A0 Th=
is
> > means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
> > either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even
> > if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
> which
> one I should use as the indicator.
> >
> > If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow
> > us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.=C2=A0 I do admit=
 to
> > being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
> > monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
> > of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
> > document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
> > activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
> >
> >
> > I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
> > flexibility with the indicator_uid.=C2=A0 One thing that I haven't
> > considered is the UID portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?=C2=
=A0 How is
> > the UID created?=C2=A0 Are there standards for UIDs?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> > SMC Lead Content Architect
> > RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> > cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> wrote=
:
> >
> > From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Cc: mile@ietf.org
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
> >
> > Greetings Kathleen,
> >
> > Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
> > many
> avenues you review with this approach at once.=C2=A0 However,=C2=A0 could=
 you share
> a
> few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ----------------------------------------------
> > "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI."
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ---------------------------------------------
> >
> > You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
> > wanted to
> protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
> logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what appears
> to
> be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
> >
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
> <mile@ietf.org>
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
> >
> > Hello C. Henry & others,
> >
> > Thanks for taking a look at this.=C2=A0 We have a few considerations in
> > this
> email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more once
> RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
> >
> > The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
> > non-XML
> extensions.=C2=A0 Where you place the extensions should be specific to th=
e
> logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more about
> the
> included data in most cases.
> >
> > The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on
> the
> report as a whole.=C2=A0 Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher
> (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData extensio=
n
> point.
> >
> > Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
> > that
> would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
> the
> Method class.=C2=A0 He did ask about non-XML.=C2=A0 RecordItem or Additio=
nalData
> do
> allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft
> handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come directl=
y
> off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes sens=
e
> from a logical standpoint.
> >
> > As for my question, it was two-fold.
> >
> > Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
> > various
> indicators they share.=C2=A0 If we are extending to embed other schemas t=
hat
> include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an attribut=
e
> to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?=C2=A0 Is this =
enough
> to make the connections or is something else else needed?=C2=A0 We could =
add
> something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then correlate
> to
> the reference or GUID identifiers.
> >
> > Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not
> > in
> the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" to
> specify the relationships.=C2=A0 In some cases, you will want to group th=
ese
> indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in multipl=
e
> places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
> format.=C2=A0 If
> we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
> should
> we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData class
> AdditionalData extension point?=C2=A0 Opinions are needed here....
> >
> > A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
> indictors into the base IODEF document.=C2=A0 We could have a catch-all c=
lass
> that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we
> could
> continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
> then
> have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.=C2=A0 I think I=
 like
> the latter approach.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Kathleen
> > ________________________________________
> > From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
> > Henry
> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> > To: mile@ietf.org
> > Cc: C. Henry Adams
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >
> > Greetings Everyone,
> >
> > Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> > 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
> > information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
> > SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
> >
> > 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
> > could
> be
> > conveyed without using SCI draft.
> > For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
> > the indicators.
> > We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
> > class,
> if
> > needed.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> >
> > In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
> >
> > Whereas, Kathleen stated,
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> -------------------------
> > For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so that's
> why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
> locations or a specific area within the EventData.
> >
> > Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ------------------------
> >
> > Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
> EventData Class.
> >
> > Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
> this
> issue?
> >
> >
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> >
> >
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> > _______________________________________________
> > mile mailing list
> > mile@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>=20
>=20

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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">RFC5070 Chapter 3 section 10 item 4 does not =
appear to restrict conflation of a numeric value and its definition. I woul=
d guess that what I'm really trying to state here is there should perhaps b=
e a simple standardization establish in a sort of an Alpha-numeric value if=
 possible as oppose to a numeric value.<br><br>Please see (Revision) below:=
<br>( i.e.&nbsp; 1LL =3D Less Likely, &nbsp; 2P =3D Probable,&nbsp; 3AC =3D=
 A Concern,&nbsp; 4U =3D&nbsp; Urgent,&nbsp; 5I =3D Imminent )<br><br>I wou=
ld concur, perhaps Sharing Groups regarding the IODEF should be given a sur=
vey of some kind to address potential issues with the High, Medium, Low ass=
essment combined with a numeric rating&nbsp; 0 - 100 to possibly revisit cr=
eating a simplified approach.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><p class=
=3D"yiv120555620MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,
 &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Please=0A see section 3.10.4 of RFC=
5070 as a starting point.&nbsp; We can change it if=0A it needs to be chang=
ed.&nbsp; The value is for a confidence rating on the =0Aindicators shared.=
&nbsp; The definitions may be helpful for anyone who wants =0Ato work on th=
is discussion.&nbsp; IODEF has various markers that can be used =0Ain a com=
plimentary way without conflating the markers meaning.</span></p><p class=
=3D"yiv120555620MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><=
p class=3D"yiv120555620MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">I=0A think s=
ome people using IODEF find the numerical values more helpful, =0Aand it wo=
uld be good to understand what people have learned from using =0Athe curren=
t structure (what works/does not work).&nbsp; The scales I have =0Aseen are=
 0-100.&nbsp; There is of course a subjective element to assigning a =0Anum=
erical value to the confidence and it may vary from entity to =0Aentity.&nb=
sp; With this type of rating you may need to consider who it came =0Afrom a=
nd how they scored the confidence rating to map to your own =0Arating.&nbsp=
; It would be good to hear more thoughts on this.&nbsp; </span></p><p class=
=3D"yiv120555620MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;"> &nbsp;</span></p><=
p class=3D"yiv120555620MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Thanks,</spa=
n></p><p class=3D"yiv120555620MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;">Kathl=
een</span></p><p class=3D"yiv120555620MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D=
;"> &nbsp;</span></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0=
pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class=3D"yiv120555620MsoNormal"><b><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;">From:</span></b><span
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;, &quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;"> C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com] <br><b>Se=
nt:</b> Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM<br><b>To:</b> MILE IETF<br><b>Cc=
:</b> Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul<br><b>Subject=
:</b> Re: [mile] IOCs</span></p></div><p class=3D"yiv120555620MsoNormal"> &=
nbsp;</p><p class=3D"yiv120555620MsoNormal"><br>Regarding=0A the IOCs or In=
dicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital point.&nbsp; =0ADifferent Confid=
ence levels will cause confusion.&nbsp; It appears that there=0A maybe a ne=
ed for some type of simplified standardization to be =0Aestablished between=
 all Sharing Groups in this regard.<br><br>Perhaps numerical scoring set at=
 lower values should express levels of urgency.<br>( i.e.&nbsp; 1 =3D Less =
Likely, &nbsp; 2 =3D Probable,&nbsp; 3 =3D A Concern,&nbsp; 4 =3D&nbsp; Urg=
ent,&nbsp; 5 =3D Imminent )<br><br>Thanks,<br>C. Henry Adams<br><br><br><br=
>I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence the=
<br>way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me an=
 IoC<br>with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a=
 scale of<br>1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the a=
bility to<br>describe something with a consistent language. It really gets =
ugly when we<br>store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values t=
hat are numeric<br>as well as text.&nbsp; Makes searching / sorting very pr=
oblematic. <br><br>At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would=
 strongly recommend<br>that we revisit this at some point.
 <br><br>Thanks,<br><br>--Chris<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: =
Moriarty, Kathleen <br>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM<br>To: Harr=
ington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE<br>IETF'<br=
>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br><br>Hi Chris &amp; Take,<br><br>I'll just focu=
s on the confidence scoring.&nbsp; Right now, the schema allows for<br>you =
to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and high.<br=
>Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.&nbsp;=
 If<br>people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful=
 to have<br>guidance.&nbsp; This could go in the IODE guidance document.<br=
><br>I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches,=
 so<br>we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is =
nice to<br>keep in flexible options where we can.<br><br>Thank you,<br>Kath=
leen<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Harrington,
 Christopher <br>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM<br>To: 'Takeshi T=
akahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'<br>Subject: RE: =
[mile] IOCs<br><br>The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the =
use of<br>indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent =
3 IP<br>addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would ha=
ve<br>separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs<br><br>My s=
uggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break it<br>do=
wn to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on scoring,<b=
r>rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand low/med/hig=
h<br>without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the level=
. <br><br>Low - I am not sure<br>Medium - I am reasonably sure<br>High - I =
am very sure <br><br><br>Thanks,<br><br>--Chris<br><br>-----Original Messag=
e-----<br>From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:<a rel=3D"nofollow"
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dt=
akeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp">takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>] <br>Sent: Tu=
esday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM<br>To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, =
Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'<br>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br><br>Re=
garding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to deal<br=
>with large sets of indicators.<br>Since indicator_set_id attribute is opti=
onal (right?), it could be omitted<br>if we need to deal with only small nu=
mber of indicators.<br><br>Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using=
 the confidence attribute<br>for the reason Chris kindly described.<br>I wo=
uld like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical? For<br>in=
stance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence", etc?<br>=
<br>Thank you.<br>Take<br><br><br>&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; F=
rom: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harring=
ton@emc.com">Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>]<br>&gt; Sent: Friday, Febr=
uary 08, 2013 4:11 AM<br>&gt; To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; St=
oecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt;=
 With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have <br>&=
gt; seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; In=
dicator --&gt; Indictor Set --&gt; Campaign --&gt; Threat Actor<br>&gt; <br=
>&gt; Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute <=
br>&gt; would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect <=
br>&gt; science by any means.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --C=
hris<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; From: Mor=
iarty, Kathleen<br>&gt; Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM<br>&gt; T=
o: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
 <br>&gt; IETF'<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hi Take &=
amp; others,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking abou=
t this with Chris and a <br>&gt; few others on their use cases and would li=
ke more opinions.&nbsp; I'll <br>&gt; provide an option below from what we =
have discussed from a CIRC view <br>&gt; point.&nbsp; We are also wondering=
 how to also provide logic in IODEF that <br>&gt; could cross over into SCI=
 attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the <br>&gt; solutions may all tie t=
ogether with this discussion - or there may be <br>&gt; better/more elegant=
 solutions others would like to propose).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; -----Original Me=
ssage-----<br>&gt; From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:<a rel=3D"nofollow" targ=
et=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakesh=
i_takahashi@nict.go.jp">takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>]<br>&gt; Sent: Tue=
sday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM<br>&gt; To: Harrington, Christopher;
 Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; 'MILE <br>&gt; IETF'<br>&gt; Subject: =
RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; I like this discussion.<br>&gt; &gt; =
I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside <br>&gt=
; &gt; the IOC-related classes.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; KMM: At the class level, w=
e may have several indicators listed that <br>&gt; should be viewed as a se=
t and may have another instance of that same <br>&gt; class that is a relat=
ed issue, but a separate set.&nbsp; We could as you <br>&gt; say, list the =
indicator IDs connected through the reference class.&nbsp; <br>&gt; The set=
 IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get <br>&gt; into=
 logic and relationships between sets or indicators.&nbsp; This could <br>&=
gt; also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that <=
br>&gt; could have been shared previously.&nbsp; If there are a large numbe=
r of <br>&gt; indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for
 smaller sets, I <br>&gt; agree it doesn't make as much sense.<br>&gt; <br>=
&gt; What do others think?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Then for indicators no=
t included in the base schema that may not <br>&gt; &gt;&gt; fit into a cat=
egory in the SCI draft, do we create a place for <br>&gt; &gt;&gt; these of=
f of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? <br>&gt; &gt;&gt; (m=
ore details<br>&gt; on<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; this in my first message).<br>&gt; =
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer e=
vent <br>&gt; &gt; record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place =
for the <br>&gt; &gt; XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.<br>&g=
t; <br>&gt; KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.&nbsp; This should go i=
nto guidance <br>&gt; in the SCI draft.&nbsp; Does anyone else want to weig=
h in?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; For the non-XML IOCs, we could use=
 RecordData class, as suggested.<br>&gt; KMM: Sounds good,
 thanks!<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not =
sure about the needs of <br>&gt; &gt; the indicator_set_id.<br>&gt; &gt; I =
understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids <br>&gt; =
&gt; and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any <br>&g=
t; &gt; other way to express these groupings.<br>&gt; &gt; For instance,&nb=
sp; a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.<br>&gt; In<br>&gt;=
 &gt; this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?<br>&g=
t; <br>&gt; KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicator=
s or <br>&gt; subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?&nbs=
p; Would this <br>&gt; happen?&nbsp; Would it be easier to express relation=
ships with sets of <br>&gt; indicators in addition to individual indicators=
?&nbsp; By using this, it <br>&gt; could give us a unique way to also provi=
de the logic and relationships <br>&gt; in a new class of IODEF so
 we don't have to worry about adding it into <br>&gt; the current<br>struct=
ure.<br>&gt; If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provid=
e some <br>&gt; options, that would be appreciated!<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thank =
you,<br>&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; I would appreciate if anybody c=
ould share expertise on this. Though<br>&gt; I<br>&gt; &gt; think I have re=
ad all the emails in the list, I might have <br>&gt; &gt; mis-understood so=
me points.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; By the way, I think the indicator_uids=
 should be added to the SCI<br>classes'<br>&gt; &gt; attributes so that the=
y can be correlated with another information <br>&gt; &gt; as<br>&gt; well.=
<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>&gt; &gt; Take<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&g=
t; <br>&gt; From: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.m=
c534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@iet=
f.org</a> [mailto:<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.o=
rg">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf <br>&gt; Of Harrington, Christophe=
r<br>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM<br>&gt; To: Stoecker, Pa=
ul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a <=
br>&gt; logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.=
 If <br>&gt; I give you<br>&gt; 2<br>&gt; registry keys do they both have t=
o be present to be an indication of <br>&gt; compromise or is either one by=
 themselves an indicator? Both would <br>&gt; have the same group ID since =
they are related.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; --Chris<br>&gt; <br>&gt;=
 From: Stoecker, Paul<br>&gt; Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM<br>&g=
t; To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF<br>&gt; Subje=
ct: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; What if we added indicator group ID
 along with the indicator_uid?&nbsp; <br>&gt; This would allow you to group=
 indicators that are related into the <br>&gt; same group ID.<br>&gt;&nbsp;=
 Would this resolve the issue?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; It is either that or going =
back to adding a Detection (or Indicators) <br>&gt; class that will should =
be used to take all of the indicators put them <br>&gt; into one place and =
have the ability to group the ones that go <br>&gt; together.&nbsp; I don't=
 mean a place to put indicators that are missing <br>&gt; from IODEF.I mean=
 a place in the IODEF document where you put the <br>&gt; indicators that a=
re used for detection and prevention of the shared <br>&gt; Incident.&nbsp;=
 I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a <br>&gt; good way =
for indicators to be identified and being able to group them <br>&gt; as Ch=
ris has suggested without basically recreating something <br>&gt; complicat=
ed like STIX.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul
 W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<br>&gt; SMC Lead Content Architect<br>&gt; RSA, The Sec=
urity Division of EMC<br>&gt; cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a rel=3D"nofollow" t=
arget=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpau=
l.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Fro=
m: &lt;Moriarty&gt;, Kathleen &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" hre=
f=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.c=
om">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; Date: Sunday, February 3, 201=
3 5:11 PM<br>&gt; To: "Harrington, Christopher" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" tar=
get=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChris=
topher.Harrington@emc.com">Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>&gt;, MILE <br=
>&gt; IETF &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc53=
4.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&g=
t; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hi Chris,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I a=
gree, we have some work
 to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The list has alr=
eady said they would like to see indicators added to <br>&gt; the definitio=
ns in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including <br>&gt; indicators =
and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to <br>&gt; 'parts of a=
n incident or the useful information on an incident for <br>&gt; sharing pu=
rposes.&nbsp; It was written before we used terms like <br>&gt; indicators.=
&nbsp; With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes <br>&gt; bac=
k in July, both for guidance and for<br>format<br>&gt; updates.&nbsp; It ma=
y help to have the first draft try to address at least <br>&gt; some of the=
se issues so people can understand the problems and at <br>&gt; least a pro=
posed solution.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; As you point out, we need to be able to sh=
ow relationships between <br>&gt; sets of indicators, where we may have a f=
ew sets of indicators that <br>&gt; could have a relationship to
 each other within a document.&nbsp; In the <br>&gt; July presentation, one=
 of the questions was to see if we should add <br>&gt; new category attribu=
te values for the System class that would connect <br>&gt; the list of incl=
uded indicators.&nbsp; I think we should still keep the <br>&gt; concept of=
 a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list <br>&gt; multiple=
 sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.&nbsp; Rosella had <br>&gt; s=
uggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would <br>&gt; =
help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an AttackType <br>=
&gt; (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader <br>=
&gt; term).&nbsp; It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute v=
alues <br>&gt; like "C2-server", "sinkhole",&nbsp; "MalwareDistribution" fo=
r added context <br>&gt; so you know what to do with the received set of in=
dicators.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I am proposing that we change IODEF to
 include multiple sets of<br>indicators,<br>&gt; add an AttackType attribut=
e (or some other name), a method to connect <br>&gt; indicators and indicat=
or sets within an IODEF using an attribute of <br>&gt; indicator_uid (or so=
me other name) with a string value to make the <br>&gt; connection points, =
and add a few indicators that are commonly shared <br>&gt; into the base IO=
DEF.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Val=
ue pairs and <br>&gt; hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if t=
his will help <br>&gt; Chris below).&nbsp; What if we added the Registry Ke=
y/Value pairs as a <br>&gt; class off of RecordData, using a similar struct=
ure to what is in <br>&gt; RFC5901, and also added the ability to include h=
ashes in RecordData?&nbsp; <br>&gt; I think if we then had the indicator_ui=
d at the RecordData level, we <br>&gt; could connect a set within that stru=
cture and repeat the structure for <br>&gt; other sets in the same
 way we would do with Node inside of the System <br>&gt; class, using the i=
ndicator_uid to tie the set together.&nbsp; Then at the <br>&gt; more speci=
fic level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an <br>&gt; indica=
tor_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?&nbsp; Maybe <br>&gt=
; we want indicator_set at the higher level?&nbsp; I'd like some opinions o=
n <br>&gt; this approach.&nbsp; +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have ot=
her ideas <br>&gt; that may work better.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; We'll also need t=
o worry about marking the indicators to prevent <br>&gt; forward sharing wh=
en not permitted.&nbsp; We may want to use these values <br>&gt; or somethi=
ng else.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thank you!<br>&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From=
: Harrington, Christopher<br>&gt; Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM<=
br>&gt; To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<=
br>&gt; <br>&gt; I think we have a bigger relationship issue to
 address. Let use the <br>&gt; Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators ar=
e sent in one message. In <br>&gt; that message we could have groupings of =
indicators that we need to <br>&gt; show are<br>&gt; related:<br>&gt; <br>&=
gt; Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same threat=
:<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The file hash of a malicious file and =
the URL of the C2 that <br>&gt; the file uses. Either or both may be presen=
t to indicate a compromise.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Two or more indicators of the =
same type that relate to the same threat:<br>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; 2 different registry values for the same registry key. If <br>&gt; either=
 value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not <br>&gt; b=
e<br>present.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The problem compounds itself very quickly. C=
onsider the scenario where <br>&gt; both groupings above are part of the sa=
me threat. I need to show that <br>&gt; logical groupings of
 Indicators are related as well. We can't send <br>&gt; multiple IODEF mess=
ages for this from what I remember reading.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The last one I=
 can think of would be when you have 2 different <br>&gt; indicators that r=
epresent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to <br>&gt; send both the<br=
>&gt; MD5<br>&gt; and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the f=
ile but the <br>&gt; IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are re=
lated? If we use <br>&gt; a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there n=
eeds to be a higher <br>&gt; level<br>grouping.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thoughts?<=
br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --Chris<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Christop=
her Harrington<br>&gt; Consulting Security Engineer<br>&gt; GSO - Critical =
Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives<br>&gt; 174 Middlese=
x Turnpike<br>&gt; Bedford, MA 01730<br>&gt; 781-515-5862 (work)<br>&gt; 60=
3-583-1585 (cell)<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: <a rel=3D"nofollow"
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dm=
ile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a rel=3D"nofollow"=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dm=
ile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf <br>&gt; Of Mori=
arty, Kathleen<br>&gt; Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM<br>&gt; To:=
 MILE IETF<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; <br>&gt; All -<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions fr=
om <br>&gt; the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my mes=
sage <br>&gt; and additionally in Paul's message.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Interest=
ing point, C. Henry.&nbsp; Our objective here is to have machine <br>&gt; a=
utomated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation <br>&g=
t; to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Paul=
 mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from <br>&gt; c=
ontext
 information that may also include IP address or other data <br>&gt; that c=
ould be indicators.&nbsp; The question I raised was on how to connect <br>&=
gt; sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to =
<br>&gt; have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators include=
d, <br>&gt; as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedd=
ed <br>&gt; schemas.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; If we add an attribute on all of the =
relevant indicators, let's say <br>&gt; 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the =
indicators?&nbsp; Do we use this to mark <br>&gt; who sent the indicator as=
 well so that we can prevent forward sharing <br>&gt; when it is not permit=
ted or handle that separately?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Then for indicators not inc=
luded in the base schema that may not fit <br>&gt; into a category in the S=
CI draft, do we create a place for these off <br>&gt; of SCI or right off o=
f the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on <br>&gt; this in my
 first message).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Comments and questions encouraged to figu=
re out the right technical <br>&gt; solution to have this machine automatab=
le.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thank you,<br>&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt; <br>&gt; From: <a =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/m=
c/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/m=
c/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf =
<br>&gt; Of C.<br>&gt; Henry Adams &amp; BIE<br>&gt; Sent: Monday, January =
28, 2013 11:25 PM<br>&gt; To: MILE IETF<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br=
>&gt; <br>&gt; Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp; I remember whe=
n I first ran <br>&gt; across this particular craft, an experienced colleag=
ue asked me a <br>&gt; peculiar question.&nbsp; He said, " How do you stop =
someone from tracking <br>&gt; the IP Address to your computer?"<br>&gt; <b=
r>&gt; I
 replied, "I don't know, how?"<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Then he said, "Cut the dog-=
gone thing off&nbsp; and the modem that it is<br>&gt; connected- which is c=
onstantly on!"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;LOL<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Here's my point (Hypot=
hetical Situation) :&nbsp; There is a 1st Responder <br>&gt; searching a Ne=
ighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or <br>&gt; let's jus=
t say "Live" Terrorist Situation.&nbsp; He /or She needs to <br>&gt; commun=
ication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in <br>&gt; Danger.&=
nbsp; The device used to communicate has been captured by the great <br>&gt=
; minds of the enemy.&nbsp; It's only a matter of time before they utilize =
<br>&gt; reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.&nbsp; However,=
 their <br>&gt; pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of othe=
r similar <br>&gt; devices to attack.&nbsp; Why? Perhaps the less thought o=
f concepts that <br>&gt; makes the device function properly, saves
 the day by disguise or <br>&gt; cutting it off (figuratively speaking).<br=
>&gt; <br>&gt; Just a visionary thought.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; C. Henry Adams<br=
>&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.ya=
hoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemedia=
group.com</a><br>&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://=
biemediagroup.com">http://biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; T=
he information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the <br>&gt; or=
iginal recipient. This information is granted for limited <br>&gt; distribu=
tion within the recipient's place of business for planning <br>&gt; purpose=
s only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is <br>&gt; prohib=
ited.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofol=
low" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&g=
t; From: Dave
 Misell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.m=
ail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a=
>&gt;<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; To: "C. Henry Adams &amp; BI=
E" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.y=
ahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&g=
t;<br>&gt; Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored wi=
th DNS <br>&gt; SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?<br>&gt=
; <br>&gt; Yours Faithfully,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Dave Misell MSc CISSP<br>&gt;=
 SilentCircle&nbsp; dsm<br>&gt; 07710 380044<br>&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavi=
d.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; On 29 =
Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=
=3D"_blank"
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.c=
om">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; Seri=
alization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way <br>&gt; &gt=
; was<br>&gt; closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,=
 <br>&gt; "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant m=
inds <br>&gt; in some instances."<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; However, I see =
Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.&nbsp; However, it <br>&gt; &gt; woul=
d<br>&gt; be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study=
 this <br>&gt; Security Art Form in a negative way.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &g=
t; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; &gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">c=
hatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email) <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blan=
k"
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemedi=
agroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>=
&gt; &gt; The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the<=
br>&gt; &gt; original<br>&gt; recipient. This information is granted for li=
mited distribution within<br>&gt; the<br>&gt; recipient's place of business=
 for planning purposes only. Further<br>&gt; dissemination, whether private=
 or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;=
 &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM<br>&gt; &gt; From:<br>&=
gt; &gt; "Stoecker, Paul" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D=
"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul=
.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; To:<br>&gt; &gt; "<a rel=3D"nofollow=
" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I would like to look at this from a slightly=
 different<br>&gt; &gt; perspective=C5=A0let's say I get an XML document th=
at tells me about an<br>&gt; &gt; incident.&nbsp; This document has source =
IP and destination IP that is<br>&gt; &gt; being shared.&nbsp; However, wha=
t I don't know is which IP address is my<br>&gt; &gt; indicator and which i=
s just a contextual piece of information.&nbsp; This<br>&gt; &gt; means tha=
t my detection product isn't going to know which one to use<br>&gt; &gt; ei=
ther, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even<br>&gt;=
 &gt; if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system<b=
r>&gt; which<br>&gt; one I should use as the indicator.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt=
; &gt; If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allo=
w<br>&gt; &gt; us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.&nbsp;
 I do admit to<br>&gt; &gt; being biased as I have spent much of my career =
working on the<br>&gt; &gt; monitoring and detection side of these things, =
so I am just thinking<br>&gt; &gt; of ways to make it very clear what the i=
ndicators are in the XML<br>&gt; &gt; document and the other data that may =
be important as I investigate<br>&gt; &gt; activity that I have detected of=
f of those indicators.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I did suggest=
 the detection class, but I think we may get more<br>&gt; &gt; flexibility =
with the indicator_uid.&nbsp; One thing that I haven't<br>&gt; &gt; conside=
red is the UID portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?&nbsp; How is<br=
>&gt; &gt; the UID created?&nbsp; Are there standards for UIDs?<br>&gt; &gt=
;<br>&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Paul<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;=
 &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<br>&gt; &gt; SMC Le=
ad Content Architect<br>&gt; &gt; RSA, The Security Division of
 EMC<br>&gt; &gt; cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_bl=
ank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@r=
sa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; --- On Sat, 1/2=
6/13, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com"=
>chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; From: C. He=
nry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http:=
//us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga200=
0@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; &gt; To: =
"KathleenMoriarty" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http:/=
/us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathlee=
n.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Cc: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_=
blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org=
">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt;
 Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Greeti=
ngs Kathleen,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Your logic stimulates my visionary =
brain because I'm amazed at the<br>&gt; &gt; many<br>&gt; avenues you revie=
w with this approach at once.&nbsp; However,&nbsp; could you share<br>&gt; =
a<br>&gt; few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&=
gt; &gt;<br>&gt; ----------------------------------------------------------=
----------<br>&gt; --------<br>&gt; ---------------------------------------=
-------<br>&gt; &gt; "we could continue to group items in logical places as=
 is done now in<br>&gt; IODEF and then have the extension point for combine=
d indicators via SCI."<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; ------------------=
--------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; --------<br>&gt;=
 ---------------------------------------------<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Yo=
u pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if
 I<br>&gt; &gt; wanted to<br>&gt; protect information from parties capable =
of ascertaining it from your<br>&gt; logical places, perhaps we should also=
 consider to a degree what appears<br>&gt; to<br>&gt; be illogical in brill=
iant minds in some instances.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt=
; &gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; &gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com"=
>chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)<br>&gt; &gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow" =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dch=
enryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt; &gt;=
<br>&gt; &gt; The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of =
the<br>&gt; &gt; original<br>&gt; recipient. This information is granted fo=
r limited distribution within<br>&gt; the<br>&gt; recipient's place of busi=
ness for planning purposes only. Further<br>&gt; dissemination, whether pri=
vate or
 public is prohibited.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moria=
rty, Kathleen &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.m=
c534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.mor=
iarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; From: Moriar=
ty, Kathleen &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc=
534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.mori=
arty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt; &gt; To:=
 "C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">c=
hatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, "<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf=
.org</a>"<br>&gt; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://=
us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;<br>&gt; &gt; Date: Saturday,
 January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Hello C. Henry &amp; =
others,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Thanks for taking a look at this.&nbsp; W=
e have a few considerations in<br>&gt; &gt; this<br>&gt; email thread I wou=
ld like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more once<br>&gt; RFC5070-bis=
 is actively edited).<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The AdditionalData class an=
d the RecordItem class both allow for<br>&gt; &gt; non-XML<br>&gt; extensio=
ns.&nbsp; Where you place the extensions should be specific to the<br>&gt; =
logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more about<br=
>&gt; the<br>&gt; included data in most cases.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Th=
e Impact class can be used to provide context information on the<br>&gt; in=
cluded data of the report and also can include a confidence rating on<br>&g=
t; the<br>&gt; report as a whole.&nbsp; Extensions related to impact would =
be one level higher<br>&gt; (at the moment) in the Assessment class
 using the AdditionalData extension<br>&gt; point.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt=
; Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think<br>&g=
t; &gt; that<br>&gt; would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of t=
he SCI draft in<br>&gt; the<br>&gt; Method class.&nbsp; He did ask about no=
n-XML.&nbsp; RecordItem or AdditionalData<br>&gt; do<br>&gt; allow for non-=
XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft<br>&gt; handle the=
se as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come directly<br>&gt; of=
f the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes sense<br=
>&gt; from a logical standpoint.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; As for my questi=
on, it was two-fold.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Indicator based schemas have=
 a reference number or a GUID for the<br>&gt; &gt; various<br>&gt; indicato=
rs they share.&nbsp; If we are extending to embed other schemas that<br>&gt=
; include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an
 attribute<br>&gt; to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicator=
s?&nbsp; Is this enough<br>&gt; to make the connections or is something els=
e else needed?&nbsp; We could add<br>&gt; something like an Indicator_ID in=
 RFC5070-bis which would then correlate<br>&gt; to<br>&gt; the reference or=
 GUID identifiers.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Then the other question was on=
 how to include indicators that are not<br>&gt; &gt; in<br>&gt; the base sc=
hema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" to<br>&gt; specif=
y the relationships.&nbsp; In some cases, you will want to group these<br>&=
gt; indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in multi=
ple<br>&gt; places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the dat=
a<br>&gt; format.&nbsp; If<br>&gt; we have cases like this where you need m=
ore complex representations,<br>&gt; should<br>&gt; we use one extension po=
int via the SCI draft off of the EventData class<br>&gt;
 AdditionalData extension point?&nbsp; Opinions are needed here....<br>&gt;=
 &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; A few people have mentioned wanting to include some comm=
only shared<br>&gt; indictors into the base IODEF document.&nbsp; We could =
have a catch-all class<br>&gt; that does this and has an extension point of=
f of it in EventData or we<br>&gt; could<br>&gt; continue to group items in=
 logical places as is done now in IODEF and<br>&gt; then<br>&gt; have the e=
xtension point for combined indicators via SCI.&nbsp; I think I like<br>&gt=
; the latter approach.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Thank you,<br>&gt; &gt; Ka=
thleen<br>&gt; &gt; ________________________________________<br>&gt; &gt; F=
rom: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a=
 rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/=
mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf=
 Of
 C.<br>&gt; &gt; Henry<br>&gt; Adams &amp; BIE [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2=
000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]<br>&gt; &gt; Sent: Saturday, Janu=
ary 26, 2013 3:05 AM<br>&gt; &gt; To: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"=
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile=
@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt; Cc: C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [mi=
le] IOCs<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Greetings Everyone,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;=
 &gt; Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :<br>&gt; &gt;<br=
>&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------<=
br>&gt; --------<br>&gt; --------------------------<br>&gt; &gt; 1) If the =
indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of<br>&gt; &gt; in=
formation leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the<br>&gt; &g=
t; SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; 2) If the indic=
ators are
 something like an non-XML ones, I guess it<br>&gt; &gt; could<br>&gt; be<b=
r>&gt; &gt; conveyed without using SCI draft.<br>&gt; &gt; For instance, we=
 could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey<br>&gt; &gt; the indica=
tors.<br>&gt; &gt; We could for instance extend the list of indicators of t=
he Impact<br>&gt; &gt; class,<br>&gt; if<br>&gt; &gt; needed.<br>&gt; &gt;<=
br>&gt; -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-<br>&gt; --------<br>&gt; --------------------------<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt; In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt=
; Whereas, Kathleen stated,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; -------------=
-------------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; --------<br=
>&gt; -------------------------<br>&gt; &gt; For the discussion below, I wa=
s thinking more of combined set with<br>&gt; relationships that may be incl=
uded in a single extension point, so that's<br>&gt; why I was
 thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better<br>&gt; locati=
ons or a specific area within the EventData.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Paul=
 Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.<br>&gt; &gt=
;<br>&gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>&gt; --------<br>&gt; ------------------------<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt; Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the<br>&=
gt; EventData Class.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Is there a possible way to c=
reate a new XML class which encompass<br>&gt; combining the EventData, Dete=
ction and base IODEF classes to simplify<br>&gt; this<br>&gt; issue?<br>&gt=
; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt; &gt; <a rel=3D"nofo=
llow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)<br>&gt;=
 &gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemedi=
agroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>=
&gt; &gt; The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the<=
br>&gt; &gt; original<br>&gt; recipient. This information is granted for li=
mited distribution within<br>&gt; the<br>&gt; recipient's place of business=
 for planning purposes only. Further<br>&gt; dissemination, whether private=
 or public is prohibited.<br>&gt; &gt; ____________________________________=
___________<br>&gt; &gt; mile mailing list<br>&gt; &gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow"=
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---2038480821-1994560635-1360734626=:86450--

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From: Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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Hi, Kathleen, all,

I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build =
interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem. =
(Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean =
"we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports =
according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had =
assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I =
think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and rigorous =
than it needs to be.)

Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably =
measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in =
many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, however =
educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own scales such =
that each value generally means the same thing in each report. Across =
teams, I don't know.

On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated =
guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating a =
response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point, =
though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.

If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I =
agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note =
that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high, =
unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the =
users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning "yes" and 0 =
meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is purely =
coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent" in 5070-bis.

Best regards,

Brian (as contributor)


On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" =
<kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:

> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can =
change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence =
rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for =
anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various markers =
that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating the markers =
meaning.
> =20
> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more =
helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned =
from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The scales =
I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective element to =
assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary from =
entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to consider who =
it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to your =
own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on this.=20
> =20
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
> =20
> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
> To: MILE IETF
> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
>=20
> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital =
point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears =
that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization to =
be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>=20
> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of =
urgency.
> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  =
Urgent,  5 =3D Imminent )
>=20
> Thanks,
> C. Henry Adams
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence =
the
> way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me =
an IoC
> with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a =
scale of
> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability =
to
> describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly =
when we
> store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are =
numeric
> as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very problematic.=20
>=20
> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly =
recommend
> that we revisit this at some point.=20
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen=20
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul; =
'MILE
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Hi Chris & Take,
>=20
> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema =
allows for
> you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and =
high.
> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.  =
If
> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful =
to have
> guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>=20
> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches, =
so
> we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is =
nice to
> keep in flexible options where we can.
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harrington, Christopher=20
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE =
IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>=20
> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break =
it
> down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on =
scoring,
> rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand =
low/med/high
> without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the =
level.=20
>=20
> Low - I am not sure
> Medium - I am reasonably sure
> High - I am very sure=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE =
IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to =
deal
> with large sets of indicators.
> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be =
omitted
> if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>=20
> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence =
attribute
> for the reason Chris kindly described.
> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical? =
For
> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence", =
etc?
>=20
> Thank you.
> Take
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Harrington, Christopher =
[mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
> > Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
> > To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE =
IETF'
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> >=20
> > With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have=20=

> > seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
> >=20
> > Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
> >=20
> > Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute=20=

> > would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect=20
> > science by any means.
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> >=20
> > --Chris
> >=20
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Moriarty, Kathleen
> > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> > To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; =
'MILE=20
> > IETF'
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> >=20
> > Hi Take & others,
> >=20
> > Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a=20=

> > few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll=20
> > provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view=20=

> > point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF =
that=20
> > could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the=20=

> > solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may =
be=20
> > better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
> > To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; =
'MILE=20
> > IETF'
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> >=20
> > > I like this discussion.
> > > I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers =
inside=20
> > > the IOC-related classes.
> >=20
> > KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that=20=

> > should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same=20=

> > class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you=20=

> > say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class. =20=

> > The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get=20=

> > into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could=20=

> > also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents =
that=20
> > could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of=20=

> > indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I=20=

> > agree it doesn't make as much sense.
> >=20
> > What do others think?
> >=20
> > >> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not=20=

> > >> fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for=20
> > >> these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?=20
> > >> (more details
> > on
> > >> this in my first message).
> > >
> > > If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event=20
> > > record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the=20
> > > XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
> >=20
> > KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into =
guidance=20
> > in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
> >=20
> > >
> > > For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
> > KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
> >=20
> > > I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs =
of=20
> > > the indicator_set_id.
> > > I understand we could do some grouping of individual =
indicator_uids=20
> > > and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any=20
> > > other way to express these groupings.
> > > For instance,  a Reference class refers to several =
indicadtor_uids.
> > In
> > > this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
> >=20
> > KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or=20=

> > subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would =
this=20
> > happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of=20
> > indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it=20=

> > could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and =
relationships=20
> > in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it =
into=20
> > the current
> structure.
> > If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some=20=

> > options, that would be appreciated!
> >=20
> > Thank you,
> > Kathleen
> >=20
> > > I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. =
Though
> > I
> > > think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have=20
> > > mis-understood some points.
> > >
> > > By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
> classes'
> > > attributes so that they can be correlated with another information=20=

> > > as
> > well.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Take
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20=

> > Of Harrington, Christopher
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
> > To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >=20
> > I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a=20
> > logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. =
If=20
> > I give you
> > 2
> > registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of=20=

> > compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would=20=

> > have the same group ID since they are related.
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> > --Chris
> >=20
> > From: Stoecker, Paul
> > Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
> > To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >=20
> > What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid? =20=

> > This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the=20=

> > same group ID.
> >  Would this resolve the issue?
> >=20
> > It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or =
Indicators)=20
> > class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put =
them=20
> > into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go=20
> > together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing=20=

> > from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the=20
> > indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared=20=

> > Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a=20=

> > good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group =
them=20
> > as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something=20
> > complicated like STIX.
> >=20
> > Paul
> >=20
> >=20
> > Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> > SMC Lead Content Architect
> > RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> > cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> >=20
> >=20
> > From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
> > To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE=20=

> > IETF <mile@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >=20
> > Hi Chris,
> >=20
> > I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
> >=20
> > The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to=20=

> > the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including=20=

> > indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to=20
> > 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for=20=

> > sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like=20
> > indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes=20=

> > back in July, both for guidance and for
> format
> > updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at =
least=20
> > some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at=20
> > least a proposed solution.
> >=20
> > As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between=20=

> > sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that=20=

> > could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the=20=

> > July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add=20=

> > new category attribute values for the System class that would =
connect=20
> > the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the=20=

> > concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list=20=

> > multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had=20=

> > suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would=20=

> > help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an =
AttackType=20
> > (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader=20
> > term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute =
values=20
> > like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added =
context=20
> > so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.
> >=20
> > I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
> indicators,
> > add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to =
connect=20
> > indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of=20=

> > indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the=20=

> > connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared=20=

> > into the base IODEF.
> >=20
> > Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and=20
> > hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help=20=

> > Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a=20
> > class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in=20
> > RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData? =
=20
> > I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we=20=

> > could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure =
for=20
> > other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the =
System=20
> > class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at the=20=

> > more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use =
an=20
> > indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Maybe=20=

> > we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions =
on=20
> > this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas=20=

> > that may work better.
> >=20
> > We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent=20
> > forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values=20=

> > or something else.
> >=20
> > Thank you!
> > Kathleen
> >=20
> > From: Harrington, Christopher
> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
> > To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> >=20
> > I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the=20=

> > Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. =
In=20
> > that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to=20=

> > show are
> > related:
> >=20
> > Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same =
threat:
> >        The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that=20=

> > the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a =
compromise.
> >=20
> > Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same =
threat:
> >        2 different registry values for the same registry key. If=20
> > either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will =
not=20
> > be
> present.
> >=20
> > The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario =
where=20
> > both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show =
that=20
> > logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send=20=

> > multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
> >=20
> > The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different=20
> > indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to=20=

> > send both the
> > MD5
> > and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the=20=

> > IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we =
use=20
> > a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher=20=

> > level
> grouping.
> >=20
> > Thoughts?
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> >=20
> > --Chris
> >=20
> > Christopher Harrington
> > Consulting Security Engineer
> > GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information =
Lives
> > 174 Middlesex Turnpike
> > Bedford, MA 01730
> > 781-515-5862 (work)
> > 603-583-1585 (cell)
> >=20
> > From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20=

> > Of Moriarty, Kathleen
> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
> > To: MILE IETF
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >=20
> > All -
> >=20
> > I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from=20=

> > the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message=20=

> > and additionally in Paul's message.
> >=20
> > Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine=20=

> > automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than =
obfuscation=20
> > to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
> >=20
> > Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from=20=

> > context information that may also include IP address or other data=20=

> > that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to =
connect=20
> > sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability =
to=20
> > have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,=20=

> > as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded=20
> > schemas.
> >=20
> > If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say=20=

> > 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to =
mark=20
> > who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward =
sharing=20
> > when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
> >=20
> > Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=20=

> > into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off=20=

> > of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details =
on=20
> > this in my first message).
> >=20
> > Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical=20=

> > solution to have this machine automatable.
> >=20
> > Thank you,
> > Kathleen
> >=20
> > From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20=

> > Of C.
> > Henry Adams & BIE
> > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
> > To: MILE IETF
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> >=20
> > Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran=20=

> > across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a=20
> > peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking=20=

> > the IP Address to your computer?"
> >=20
> > I replied, "I don't know, how?"
> >=20
> > Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
> > connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
> >=20
> > Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder=20=

> > searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster =
or=20
> > let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to=20
> > communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in=20
> > Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the =
great=20
> > minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize=20=

> > reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their=20=

> > pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar=20=

> > devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that=20=

> > makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or=20
> > cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
> >=20
> > Just a visionary thought.
> >=20
> > C. Henry Adams
> > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> > http://biemediagroup.com
> >=20
> >=20
> > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
> > original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
> > distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20=

> > purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20=

> > prohibited.
> >=20
> > --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
> >=20
> > From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
> > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> > To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> > Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with =
DNS=20
> > SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
> >=20
> > Yours Faithfully,
> >=20
> > Dave Misell MSc CISSP
> > SilentCircle  dsm
> > 07710 380044
> > david.misell@bcs.org
> >=20
> >=20
> > On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE =
<chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >=20
> > > Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way=20=

> > > was
> > closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,=20
> > "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant =
minds=20
> > in some instances."
> > >
> > > However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it=20=

> > > would
> > be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study =
this=20
> > Security Art Form in a negative way.
> > >
> > > C. Henry Adams
> > > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> > >
> > >
> > > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > > original
> > recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within
> > the
> > recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> > dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> > >
> > > Re: [mile] IOCs
> > >
> > > Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> > > From:
> > > "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> > > To:
> > > "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> > > I would like to look at this from a slightly different
> > > perspective=8Alet's say I get an XML document that tells me about =
an
> > > incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
> > > being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is =
my
> > > indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  =
This
> > > means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to =
use
> > > either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, =
even
> > > if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my =
system
> > which
> > one I should use as the indicator.
> > >
> > > If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would =
allow
> > > us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit =
to
> > > being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
> > > monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just =
thinking
> > > of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
> > > document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
> > > activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
> > >
> > >
> > > I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
> > > flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
> > > considered is the UID portion of this=8Ahow do we use that UID?  =
How is
> > > the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> > > SMC Lead Content Architect
> > > RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> > > cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
> > >
> > > From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > > To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > > Cc: mile@ietf.org
> > > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
> > >
> > > Greetings Kathleen,
> > >
> > > Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
> > > many
> > avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you =
share
> > a
> > few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
> > >
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > > "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now =
in
> > IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI."
> > >
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> > ---------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
> > > wanted to
> > protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from =
your
> > logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what =
appears
> > to
> > be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > C. Henry Adams
> > > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> > >
> > > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > > original
> > recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within
> > the
> > recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> > dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen =
<kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> > > Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> > > To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, =
"mile@ietf.org"
> > <mile@ietf.org>
> > > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
> > >
> > > Hello C. Henry & others,
> > >
> > > Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
> > > this
> > email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more =
once
> > RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
> > >
> > > The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
> > > non-XML
> > extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to =
the
> > logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more =
about
> > the
> > included data in most cases.
> > >
> > > The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
> > included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating =
on
> > the
> > report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level =
higher
> > (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData =
extension
> > point.
> > >
> > > Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would =
think
> > > that
> > would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft =
in
> > the
> > Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or =
AdditionalData
> > do
> > allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI =
draft
> > handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come =
directly
> > off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes =
sense
> > from a logical standpoint.
> > >
> > > As for my question, it was two-fold.
> > >
> > > Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
> > > various
> > indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas =
that
> > include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an =
attribute
> > to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this =
enough
> > to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could =
add
> > something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then =
correlate
> > to
> > the reference or GUID identifiers.
> > >
> > > Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are =
not
> > > in
> > the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or" =
to
> > specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group =
these
> > indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in =
multiple
> > places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
> > format.  If
> > we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
> > should
> > we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData =
class
> > AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....
> > >
> > > A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly =
shared
> > indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all =
class
> > that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or =
we
> > could
> > continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF =
and
> > then
> > have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I =
like
> > the latter approach.
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > > Kathleen
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
C.
> > > Henry
> > Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> > > To: mile@ietf.org
> > > Cc: C. Henry Adams
> > > Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> > >
> > > Greetings Everyone,
> > >
> > > Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> > --------------------------
> > > 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning =
of
> > > information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
> > > SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
> > >
> > > 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess =
it
> > > could
> > be
> > > conveyed without using SCI draft.
> > > For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to =
convey
> > > the indicators.
> > > We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
> > > class,
> > if
> > > needed.
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> > --------------------------
> > >
> > > In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
> > >
> > > Whereas, Kathleen stated,
> > >
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> > -------------------------
> > > For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
> > relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so =
that's
> > why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be =
better
> > locations or a specific area within the EventData.
> > >
> > > Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a =
consideration.
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> > ------------------------
> > >
> > > Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
> > EventData Class.
> > >
> > > Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
> > combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to =
simplify
> > this
> > issue?
> > >
> > >
> > > C. Henry Adams
> > > chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> > > chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> > >
> > >
> > > The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> > > original
> > recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within
> > the
> > recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> > dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > mile mailing list
> > > mile@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
> >=20
> >
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile


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To: Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 07:13:34 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
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From Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com  Wed Feb 13 05:04:23 2013
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From: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
To: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 08:04:04 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
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I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)

Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
essentially would say something like:

1-33 =3D Low
34-67=3D Medium
68-100=3DHigh

Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low, Medium,
High...do we really thing that how High something is makes that much of a
difference?

This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does Not
Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High Meets...y=
our
bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other Meets got
;-)

Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why use
numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.


Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com






On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:

>Hello,
>
>Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The representation
>looks a little different for each, here is an example:
>
><Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>
>Vs:
>
><Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>
>Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from
>more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
>extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
>guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
>specifying how to select ranges.
>
>Any other opinions?
>
>Thanks,
>Kathleen
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stoecker, Paul
>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>To: Brian Trammell
>Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>
>Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium, and
>Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate against
>the schema.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell" <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>wrote:
>
>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>
>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build
>>interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>>(Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean
>>"we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
>>according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
>>assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
>>think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and rigorous
>>than it needs to be.)
>>
>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably
>>measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
>>many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, however
>>educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own scales such
>>that each value generally means the same thing in each report. Across
>>teams, I don't know.
>>
>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
>>guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating a
>>response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,
>>though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.
>>
>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I
>>agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note
>>that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high,
>>unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the
>>users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning "yes" and 0
>>meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is purely
>>coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent" in 5070-bis.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Brian (as contributor)
>>
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>><kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
>>>change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
>>>rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for
>>>anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various markers
>>>that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating the markers
>>>meaning.
>>>
>>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
>>>helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned
>>>from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
>>>scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective element
>>>to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary from
>>>entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to consider
>>>who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to
>>>your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on this.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>>
>>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
>>>point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears
>>>that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization to
>>>be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>>
>>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of
>>>urgency.
>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  =
Urgent,
>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence
>>>the
>>> way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me
>>>an IoC
>>> with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a
>>>scale of
>>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability to
>>> describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
>>>when we
>>> store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are
>>>numeric
>>> as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very problematic.
>>>
>>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
>>>recommend
>>> that we revisit this at some point.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>> IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>>
>>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
>>>allows for
>>> you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and
>>>high.
>>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
>>>If
>>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful
>>>to have
>>> guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>>
>>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches,
>>>so
>>> we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is
>>>nice to
>>> keep in flexible options where we can.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
>>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
>>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
>>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>>
>>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break
>>>it
>>> down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on
>>>scoring,
>>> rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand
>>>low/med/high
>>> without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the level.
>>>
>>> Low - I am not sure
>>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>>> High - I am very sure
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to
>>>deal
>>> with large sets of indicators.
>>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
>>>omitted
>>> if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>>
>>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
>>>attribute
>>> for the reason Chris kindly described.
>>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
>>>For
>>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",
>>>etc?
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>> Take
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have
>>>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>>>
>>>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>>>
>>>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
>>>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
>>>> science by any means.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> --Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>>>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>> IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>> Hi Take & others,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a
>>>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
>>>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view
>>>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that
>>>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
>>>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be
>>>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; 'MILE
>>>> IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>>> I like this discussion.
>>>>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
>>>>> the IOC-related classes.
>>>>
>>>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
>>>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
>>>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
>>>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>>>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get
>>>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could
>>>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that
>>>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
>>>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I
>>>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>>>
>>>> What do others think?
>>>>
>>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not
>>>>>> fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for
>>>>>> these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>>>>>> (more details
>>>> on
>>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>
>>>>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event
>>>>> record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the
>>>>> XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>>>
>>>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into guidance
>>>> in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>>>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>>>
>>>>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
>>>>> the indicator_set_id.
>>>>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
>>>>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any
>>>>> other way to express these groupings.
>>>>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
>>>> In
>>>>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>>>
>>>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
>>>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
>>>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
>>>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
>>>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and relationships
>>>> in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it into
>>>> the current
>>> structure.
>>>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
>>>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>
>>>>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
>>>> I
>>>>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
>>>>> mis-understood some points.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
>>> classes'
>>>>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information
>>>>> as
>>>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Take
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>>>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
>>>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators. If
>>>> I give you
>>>> 2
>>>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
>>>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
>>>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> --Chris
>>>>
>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>>>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
>>>> same group ID.
>>>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>>>
>>>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
>>>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them
>>>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
>>>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
>>>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
>>>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
>>>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
>>>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them
>>>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
>>>> complicated like STIX.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>>>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE
>>>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>
>>>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>>>
>>>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to
>>>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
>>>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
>>>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
>>>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
>>>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes
>>>> back in July, both for guidance and for
>>> format
>>>> updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least
>>>> some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at
>>>> least a proposed solution.
>>>>
>>>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
>>>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
>>>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
>>>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
>>>> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect
>>>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
>>>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
>>>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
>>>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
>>>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an AttackType
>>>> (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader
>>>> term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute values
>>>> like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added context
>>>> so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.
>>>>
>>>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
>>> indicators,
>>>> add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect
>>>> indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of
>>>> indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
>>>> connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared
>>>> into the base IODEF.
>>>>
>>>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
>>>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
>>>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
>>>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
>>>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
>>>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we
>>>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure for
>>>> other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System
>>>> class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at the
>>>> more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an
>>>> indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Maybe
>>>> we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions on
>>>> this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas
>>>> that may work better.
>>>>
>>>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
>>>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values
>>>> or something else.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you!
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>
>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
>>>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
>>>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
>>>> show are
>>>> related:
>>>>
>>>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>>>>threat:
>>>>       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
>>>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a compromise.
>>>>
>>>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>>>>threat:
>>>>       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
>>>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will not
>>>> be
>>> present.
>>>>
>>>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario where
>>>> both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that
>>>> logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send
>>>> multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
>>>>
>>>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
>>>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
>>>> send both the
>>>> MD5
>>>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the
>>>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we use
>>>> a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher
>>>> level
>>> grouping.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> --Chris
>>>>
>>>> Christopher Harrington
>>>> Consulting Security Engineer
>>>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
>>>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>>>> Bedford, MA 01730
>>>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>>>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>>>
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>> All -
>>>>
>>>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from
>>>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
>>>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
>>>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
>>>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>>>
>>>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
>>>> context information that may also include IP address or other data
>>>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to connect
>>>> sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability to
>>>> have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,
>>>> as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded
>>>> schemas.
>>>>
>>>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
>>>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to mark
>>>> who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing
>>>> when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>>>
>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on
>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>
>>>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
>>>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>> Of C.
>>>> Henry Adams & BIE
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran
>>>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
>>>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking
>>>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>>>
>>>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>>>
>>>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
>>>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>>>
>>>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
>>>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster or
>>>> let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
>>>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
>>>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the great
>>>> minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize
>>>> reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their
>>>> pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar
>>>> devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that
>>>> makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
>>>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>>>
>>>> Just a visionary thought.
>>>>
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>> prohibited.
>>>>
>>>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with DNS
>>>> SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>>>
>>>> Yours Faithfully,
>>>>
>>>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>>>> SilentCircle  dsm
>>>> 07710 380044
>>>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
>>>>> was
>>>> closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
>>>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds
>>>> in some instances."
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
>>>>> would
>>>> be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study this
>>>> Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original
>>>> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
>>>> the
>>>> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
>>>> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>>>>> From:
>>>>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>>>>> To:
>>>>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
>>>>> perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
>>>>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
>>>>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
>>>>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
>>>>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
>>>>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even
>>>>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
>>>> which
>>>> one I should use as the indicator.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow
>>>>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to
>>>>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
>>>>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
>>>>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
>>>>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
>>>>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
>>>>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
>>>>> considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How =
is
>>>>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
>>>>> many
>>>> avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you
>>>>share
>>>> a
>>>> few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
>>>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
>>>>SCI."
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
>>>>> wanted to
>>>> protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
>>>> logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what
>>>>appears
>>>> to
>>>> be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original
>>>> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
>>>> the
>>>> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
>>>> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
>>>>> this
>>>> email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more
>>>>once
>>>> RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>>>>
>>>>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
>>>>> non-XML
>>>> extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
>>>> logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more
>>>>about
>>>> the
>>>> included data in most cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
>>>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating
>>>>on
>>>> the
>>>> report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level
>>>>higher
>>>> (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData
>>>>extension
>>>> point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
>>>>> that
>>>> would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
>>>> the
>>>> Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or AdditionalData
>>>> do
>>>> allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI draft
>>>> handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come
>>>>directly
>>>> off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes
>>>>sense
>>>> from a logical standpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
>>>>> various
>>>> indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas
>>>>that
>>>> include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an
>>>>attribute
>>>> to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this
>>>>enough
>>>> to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could
>>>>add
>>>> something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then
>>>>correlate
>>>> to
>>>> the reference or GUID identifiers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not
>>>>> in
>>>> the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or"
>>>>to
>>>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
>>>>these
>>>> indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in
>>>>multiple
>>>> places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
>>>> format.  If
>>>> we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
>>>> should
>>>> we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData
>>>>class
>>>> AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....
>>>>>
>>>>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
>>>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
>>>>class
>>>> that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or we
>>>> could
>>>> continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
>>>> then
>>>> have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I
>>>>like
>>>> the latter approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
>>>>> Henry
>>>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>>>>> To: mile@ietf.org
>>>>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings Everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> --------------------------
>>>>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
>>>>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
>>>>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
>>>>> could
>>>> be
>>>>> conveyed without using SCI draft.
>>>>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
>>>>> the indicators.
>>>>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
>>>>> class,
>>>> if
>>>>> needed.
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> --------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>>>>
>>>>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> -------------------------
>>>>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
>>>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
>>>>that's
>>>> why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
>>>> locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
>>>> EventData Class.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
>>>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
>>>> this
>>>> issue?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original
>>>> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution within
>>>> the
>>>> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
>>>> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
>> mile@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>


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Hi, Paul,

I agree with this point; the main reason to support numeric confidence =
values in 5070bis is that 5070 already does.

Best regards,

Brian

On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:04 PM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> =
wrote:

> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>=20
> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
> terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
> essentially would say something like:
>=20
> 1-33 =3D Low
> 34-67=3D Medium
> 68-100=3DHigh
>=20
> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low, =
Medium,
> High...do we really thing that how High something is makes that much =
of a
> difference?
>=20
> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does Not
> Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High =
Meets...your
> bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other Meets =
got
> ;-)
>=20
> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
> confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why =
use
> numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>=20
>=20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> Hello,
>>=20
>> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The =
representation
>> looks a little different for each, here is an example:
>>=20
>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>=20
>> Vs:
>>=20
>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>=20
>> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from
>> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
>> extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
>> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
>> specifying how to select ranges.
>>=20
>> Any other opinions?
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Kathleen
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>> To: Brian Trammell
>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>=20
>> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium, =
and
>> Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate =
against
>> the schema.
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>=20
>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell" =
<trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>>=20
>>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to =
build
>>> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>>> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would =
mean
>>> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
>>> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
>>> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
>>> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and =
rigorous
>>> than it needs to be.)
>>>=20
>>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, =
repeatably
>>> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
>>> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, =
however
>>> educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own scales =
such
>>> that each value generally means the same thing in each report. =
Across
>>> teams, I don't know.
>>>=20
>>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
>>> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in =
automating a
>>> response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,
>>> though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of =
pointless.
>>>=20
>>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then =
I
>>> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a =
note
>>> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to =
high,
>>> unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the
>>> users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning "yes" and =
0
>>> meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is =
purely
>>> coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent" in =
5070-bis.
>>>=20
>>> Best regards,
>>>=20
>>> Brian (as contributor)
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
>>>> change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
>>>> rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful =
for
>>>> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various =
markers
>>>> that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating the =
markers
>>>> meaning.
>>>>=20
>>>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
>>>> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have =
learned
>>>> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
>>>> scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective =
element
>>>> to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary =
from
>>>> entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to =
consider
>>>> who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map =
to
>>>> your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on this.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
>>>> point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It =
appears
>>>> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization =
to
>>>> be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>>>=20
>>>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels =
of
>>>> urgency.
>>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D=
  Urgent,
>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using =
Confidence
>>>> the
>>>> way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends =
me
>>>> an IoC
>>>> with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a
>>>> scale of
>>>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the =
ability to
>>>> describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
>>>> when we
>>>> store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are
>>>> numeric
>>>> as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very problematic.
>>>>=20
>>>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
>>>> recommend
>>>> that we revisit this at some point.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul; =
'MILE
>>>> IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>>>=20
>>>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
>>>> allows for
>>>> you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, =
and
>>>> high.
>>>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the =
data.
>>>> If
>>>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be =
helpful
>>>> to have
>>>> guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>>>=20
>>>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the =
approaches,
>>>> so
>>>> we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is
>>>> nice to
>>>> keep in flexible options where we can.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>>>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>> IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
>>>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 =
IP
>>>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would =
have
>>>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>>>=20
>>>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we =
break
>>>> it
>>>> down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on
>>>> scoring,
>>>> rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand
>>>> low/med/high
>>>> without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the =
level.
>>>>=20
>>>> Low - I am not sure
>>>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>>>> High - I am very sure
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; =
'MILE
>>>> IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need =
to
>>>> deal
>>>> with large sets of indicators.
>>>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
>>>> omitted
>>>> if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
>>>> attribute
>>>> for the reason Chris kindly described.
>>>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be =
numerical?
>>>> For
>>>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong =
confidence",
>>>> etc?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you.
>>>> Take
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher =
[mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE =
IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>=20
>>>>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I =
have
>>>>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" =
attribute
>>>>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
>>>>> science by any means.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>>>>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; =
'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Take & others,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and =
a
>>>>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
>>>>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC =
view
>>>>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF =
that
>>>>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions =
(the
>>>>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may =
be
>>>>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; =
'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I like this discussion.
>>>>>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers =
inside
>>>>>> the IOC-related classes.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed =
that
>>>>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that =
same
>>>>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as =
you
>>>>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>>>>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we =
get
>>>>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This =
could
>>>>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents =
that
>>>>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
>>>>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, =
I
>>>>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> What do others think?
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not
>>>>>>> fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for
>>>>>>> these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>>>>>>> (more details
>>>>> on
>>>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event
>>>>>> record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the
>>>>>> XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into =
guidance
>>>>> in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as =
suggested.
>>>>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs =
of
>>>>>> the indicator_set_id.
>>>>>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual =
indicator_uids
>>>>>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any
>>>>>> other way to express these groupings.
>>>>>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several =
indicadtor_uids.
>>>>> In
>>>>>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators =
or
>>>>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would =
this
>>>>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
>>>>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, =
it
>>>>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and =
relationships
>>>>> in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it =
into
>>>>> the current
>>>> structure.
>>>>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide =
some
>>>>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. =
Though
>>>>> I
>>>>>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
>>>>>> mis-understood some points.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
>>>> classes'
>>>>>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another =
information
>>>>>> as
>>>>> well.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Take
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>>>>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
>>>>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between =
indicators. If
>>>>> I give you
>>>>> 2
>>>>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication =
of
>>>>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
>>>>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>=20
>>>>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>>>>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
>>>>> same group ID.
>>>>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or =
Indicators)
>>>>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put =
them
>>>>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
>>>>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
>>>>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
>>>>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the =
shared
>>>>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
>>>>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group =
them
>>>>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
>>>>> complicated like STIX.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>>>>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, =
MILE
>>>>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, =
RFC5070-bis.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added =
to
>>>>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about =
including
>>>>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
>>>>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
>>>>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
>>>>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of =
changes
>>>>> back in July, both for guidance and for
>>>> format
>>>>> updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at =
least
>>>>> some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at
>>>>> least a proposed solution.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
>>>>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators =
that
>>>>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
>>>>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should =
add
>>>>> new category attribute values for the System class that would =
connect
>>>>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
>>>>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, =
list
>>>>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella =
had
>>>>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
>>>>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an =
AttackType
>>>>> (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader
>>>>> term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute =
values
>>>>> like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added =
context
>>>>> so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
>>>> indicators,
>>>>> add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to =
connect
>>>>> indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute =
of
>>>>> indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
>>>>> connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly =
shared
>>>>> into the base IODEF.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
>>>>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
>>>>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
>>>>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
>>>>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in =
RecordData?
>>>>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, =
we
>>>>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure =
for
>>>>> other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the =
System
>>>>> class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at =
the
>>>>> more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use =
an
>>>>> indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  =
Maybe
>>>>> we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions =
on
>>>>> this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other =
ideas
>>>>> that may work better.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
>>>>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these =
values
>>>>> or something else.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use =
the
>>>>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. =
In
>>>>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
>>>>> show are
>>>>> related:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>>>>> threat:
>>>>>      The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
>>>>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a =
compromise.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>>>>> threat:
>>>>>      2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
>>>>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will =
not
>>>>> be
>>>> present.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario =
where
>>>>> both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show =
that
>>>>> logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send
>>>>> multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
>>>>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
>>>>> send both the
>>>>> MD5
>>>>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but =
the
>>>>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we =
use
>>>>> a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a =
higher
>>>>> level
>>>> grouping.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Christopher Harrington
>>>>> Consulting Security Engineer
>>>>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information =
Lives
>>>>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>>>>> Bedford, MA 01730
>>>>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>>>>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>=20
>>>>> All -
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions =
from
>>>>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my =
message
>>>>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have =
machine
>>>>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than =
obfuscation
>>>>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise =
from
>>>>> context information that may also include IP address or other data
>>>>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to =
connect
>>>>> sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the =
ability to
>>>>> have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators =
included,
>>>>> as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded
>>>>> schemas.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's =
say
>>>>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to =
mark
>>>>> who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward =
sharing
>>>>> when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not =
fit
>>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these =
off
>>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details =
on
>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right =
technical
>>>>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>>> Of C.
>>>>> Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first =
ran
>>>>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
>>>>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from =
tracking
>>>>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it =
is
>>>>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st =
Responder
>>>>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a =
Disaster or
>>>>> let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
>>>>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
>>>>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the =
great
>>>>> minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they =
utilize
>>>>> reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, =
their
>>>>> pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other =
similar
>>>>> devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that
>>>>> makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
>>>>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Just a visionary thought.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with =
DNS
>>>>> SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Yours Faithfully,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>>>>> SilentCircle  dsm
>>>>> 07710 380044
>>>>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE =
<chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique =
way
>>>>>> was
>>>>> closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
>>>>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant =
minds
>>>>> in some instances."
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, =
it
>>>>>> would
>>>>> be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study =
this
>>>>> Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) =
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>>> original
>>>>> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within
>>>>> the
>>>>> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
>>>>> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>>>>>> From:
>>>>>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>>>>>> To:
>>>>>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
>>>>>> perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about =
an
>>>>>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
>>>>>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is =
my
>>>>>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  =
This
>>>>>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to =
use
>>>>>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, =
even
>>>>>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my =
system
>>>>> which
>>>>> one I should use as the indicator.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would =
allow
>>>>>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do =
admit to
>>>>>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
>>>>>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just =
thinking
>>>>>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
>>>>>> document and the other data that may be important as I =
investigate
>>>>>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
>>>>>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
>>>>>> considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  =
How is
>>>>>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at =
the
>>>>>> many
>>>>> avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could =
you
>>>>> share
>>>>> a
>>>>> few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done =
now in
>>>>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators =
via
>>>>> SCI."
>>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
>>>>>> wanted to
>>>>> protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from =
your
>>>>> logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what
>>>>> appears
>>>>> to
>>>>> be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>>> original
>>>>> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within
>>>>> the
>>>>> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
>>>>> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen =
<kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, =
"mile@ietf.org"
>>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations =
in
>>>>>> this
>>>>> email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be =
more
>>>>> once
>>>>> RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
>>>>>> non-XML
>>>>> extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to =
the
>>>>> logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more
>>>>> about
>>>>> the
>>>>> included data in most cases.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on =
the
>>>>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence =
rating
>>>>> on
>>>>> the
>>>>> report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one =
level
>>>>> higher
>>>>> (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData
>>>>> extension
>>>>> point.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would =
think
>>>>>> that
>>>>> would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft =
in
>>>>> the
>>>>> Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or =
AdditionalData
>>>>> do
>>>>> allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI =
draft
>>>>> handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come
>>>>> directly
>>>>> off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what =
makes
>>>>> sense
>>>>> from a logical standpoint.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
>>>>>> various
>>>>> indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas
>>>>> that
>>>>> include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an
>>>>> attribute
>>>>> to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is =
this
>>>>> enough
>>>>> to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We =
could
>>>>> add
>>>>> something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then
>>>>> correlate
>>>>> to
>>>>> the reference or GUID identifiers.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are =
not
>>>>>> in
>>>>> the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" =
"or"
>>>>> to
>>>>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
>>>>> these
>>>>> indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in
>>>>> multiple
>>>>> places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
>>>>> format.  If
>>>>> we have cases like this where you need more complex =
representations,
>>>>> should
>>>>> we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData
>>>>> class
>>>>> AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly =
shared
>>>>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
>>>>> class
>>>>> that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData =
or we
>>>>> could
>>>>> continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF =
and
>>>>> then
>>>>> have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think =
I
>>>>> like
>>>>> the latter approach.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
C.
>>>>>> Henry
>>>>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>>>>>> To: mile@ietf.org
>>>>>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Greetings Everyone,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based =
alert/warning of
>>>>>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in =
the
>>>>>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess =
it
>>>>>> could
>>>>> be
>>>>>> conveyed without using SCI draft.
>>>>>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to =
convey
>>>>>> the indicators.
>>>>>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
>>>>>> class,
>>>>> if
>>>>>> needed.
>>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> -------------------------
>>>>>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set =
with
>>>>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
>>>>> that's
>>>>> why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be =
better
>>>>> locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a =
consideration.
>>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
>>>>> EventData Class.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
>>>>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to =
simplify
>>>>> this
>>>>> issue?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>>> original
>>>>> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution =
within
>>>>> the
>>>>> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
>>>>> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>=20


From john.banghart@nist.gov  Wed Feb 13 05:16:18 2013
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From: "Banghart, John" <john.banghart@nist.gov>
To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
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Paul,

I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be reduced
within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization of indicators
and response between tightly connected sharing partners might require a
more specific level of detail, particularly during a crisis situation.

>From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for additional
granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as preferred for
broad interoperability.

-John

On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:

>I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>
>Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
>terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
>essentially would say something like:
>
>1-33 =3D Low
>34-67=3D Medium
>68-100=3DHigh
>
>Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low, Medium,
>High...do we really thing that how High something is makes that much of a
>difference?
>
>This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does Not
>Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High
>Meets...your
>bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other Meets got
>;-)
>
>Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
>confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why use
>numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>
>
>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>SMC Lead Content Architect
>RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Hello,
>>
>>Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The representation
>>looks a little different for each, here is an example:
>>
>><Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>
>>Vs:
>>
>><Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>
>>Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from
>>more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
>>extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
>>guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
>>specifying how to select ranges.
>>
>>Any other opinions?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Kathleen
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Stoecker, Paul
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>>To: Brian Trammell
>>Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>>Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium, and
>>Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate against
>>the schema.
>>
>>Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell" <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>>
>>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build
>>>interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>>>(Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean
>>>"we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
>>>according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
>>>assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
>>>think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and rigorous
>>>than it needs to be.)
>>>
>>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably
>>>measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
>>>many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, however
>>>educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own scales such
>>>that each value generally means the same thing in each report. Across
>>>teams, I don't know.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
>>>guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating a
>>>response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,
>>>though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.
>>>
>>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I
>>>agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note
>>>that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high,
>>>unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the
>>>users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning "yes" and 0
>>>meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is purely
>>>coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent" in 5070-bis.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Brian (as contributor)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>>><kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
>>>>change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
>>>>rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for
>>>>anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various markers
>>>>that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating the markers
>>>>meaning.
>>>>
>>>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
>>>>helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned
>>>>from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
>>>>scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective element
>>>>to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary from
>>>>entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to consider
>>>>who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to
>>>>your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on this.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>
>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
>>>>point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears
>>>>that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization to
>>>>be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of
>>>>urgency.
>>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D =
 Urgent,
>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence
>>>>the
>>>> way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me
>>>>an IoC
>>>> with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a
>>>>scale of
>>>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability
>>>>to
>>>> describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
>>>>when we
>>>> store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are
>>>>numeric
>>>> as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very problematic.
>>>>
>>>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
>>>>recommend
>>>> that we revisit this at some point.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> --Chris
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>>'MILE
>>>> IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>>>
>>>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
>>>>allows for
>>>> you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and
>>>>high.
>>>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
>>>>If
>>>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful
>>>>to have
>>>> guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>>>
>>>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches,
>>>>so
>>>> we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is
>>>>nice to
>>>> keep in flexible options where we can.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>>>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
>>>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
>>>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
>>>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>>>
>>>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break
>>>>it
>>>> down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on
>>>>scoring,
>>>> rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand
>>>>low/med/high
>>>> without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the
>>>>level.
>>>>
>>>> Low - I am not sure
>>>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>>>> High - I am very sure
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> --Chris
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to
>>>>deal
>>>> with large sets of indicators.
>>>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
>>>>omitted
>>>> if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
>>>>attribute
>>>> for the reason Chris kindly described.
>>>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
>>>>For
>>>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",
>>>>etc?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>> Take
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>>IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have
>>>>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>>>>
>>>>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
>>>>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
>>>>> science by any means.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>>>>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Take & others,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a
>>>>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
>>>>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view
>>>>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that
>>>>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
>>>>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be
>>>>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
>>>>>'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>>> I like this discussion.
>>>>>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
>>>>>> the IOC-related classes.
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
>>>>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
>>>>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
>>>>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>>>>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get
>>>>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could
>>>>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that
>>>>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
>>>>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I
>>>>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do others think?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not
>>>>>>> fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for
>>>>>>> these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>>>>>>> (more details
>>>>> on
>>>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event
>>>>>> record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the
>>>>>> XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into
>>>>>guidance
>>>>> in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>>>>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
>>>>>> the indicator_set_id.
>>>>>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
>>>>>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any
>>>>>> other way to express these groupings.
>>>>>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
>>>>> In
>>>>>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
>>>>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
>>>>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
>>>>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
>>>>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
>>>>>relationships
>>>>> in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it
>>>>>into
>>>>> the current
>>>> structure.
>>>>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
>>>>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
>>>>> I
>>>>>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
>>>>>> mis-understood some points.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
>>>> classes'
>>>>>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information
>>>>>> as
>>>>> well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Take
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>>>>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
>>>>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
>>>>>If
>>>>> I give you
>>>>> 2
>>>>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
>>>>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
>>>>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>>>>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
>>>>> same group ID.
>>>>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>>>>
>>>>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
>>>>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them
>>>>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
>>>>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
>>>>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
>>>>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
>>>>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
>>>>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them
>>>>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
>>>>> complicated like STIX.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>>>>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE
>>>>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>>>>
>>>>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to
>>>>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
>>>>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
>>>>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
>>>>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
>>>>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes
>>>>> back in July, both for guidance and for
>>>> format
>>>>> updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least
>>>>> some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at
>>>>> least a proposed solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
>>>>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
>>>>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
>>>>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
>>>>> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect
>>>>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
>>>>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
>>>>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
>>>>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
>>>>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
>>>>>AttackType
>>>>> (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader
>>>>> term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute
>>>>>values
>>>>> like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added
>>>>>context
>>>>> so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
>>>> indicators,
>>>>> add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect
>>>>> indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of
>>>>> indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
>>>>> connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared
>>>>> into the base IODEF.
>>>>>
>>>>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
>>>>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
>>>>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
>>>>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
>>>>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
>>>>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we
>>>>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
>>>>>for
>>>>> other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System
>>>>> class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at the
>>>>> more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an
>>>>> indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Maybe
>>>>> we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions on
>>>>> this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas
>>>>> that may work better.
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
>>>>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values
>>>>> or something else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
>>>>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
>>>>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
>>>>> show are
>>>>> related:
>>>>>
>>>>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>>>>>threat:
>>>>>       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
>>>>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
>>>>>compromise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>>>>>threat:
>>>>>       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
>>>>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
>>>>>not
>>>>> be
>>>> present.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
>>>>>where
>>>>> both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that
>>>>> logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send
>>>>> multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
>>>>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
>>>>> send both the
>>>>> MD5
>>>>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the
>>>>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
>>>>>use
>>>>> a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher
>>>>> level
>>>> grouping.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> Christopher Harrington
>>>>> Consulting Security Engineer
>>>>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
>>>>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>>>>> Bedford, MA 01730
>>>>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>>>>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> All -
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from
>>>>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
>>>>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
>>>>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
>>>>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
>>>>> context information that may also include IP address or other data
>>>>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to
>>>>>connect
>>>>> sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability
>>>>>to
>>>>> have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,
>>>>> as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded
>>>>> schemas.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
>>>>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to
>>>>>mark
>>>>> who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing
>>>>> when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>>>>
>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on
>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
>>>>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of C.
>>>>> Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran
>>>>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
>>>>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking
>>>>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
>>>>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
>>>>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
>>>>>or
>>>>> let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
>>>>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
>>>>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the
>>>>>great
>>>>> minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize
>>>>> reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their
>>>>> pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar
>>>>> devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that
>>>>> makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
>>>>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a visionary thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
>>>>>DNS
>>>>> SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours Faithfully,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>>>>> SilentCircle  dsm
>>>>> 07710 380044
>>>>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>><chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
>>>>>> was
>>>>> closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
>>>>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds
>>>>> in some instances."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
>>>>>> would
>>>>> be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study
>>>>>this
>>>>> Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>>> original
>>>>> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
>>>>>within
>>>>> the
>>>>> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
>>>>> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>>>>>> From:
>>>>>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>>>>>> To:
>>>>>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
>>>>>> perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
>>>>>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
>>>>>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
>>>>>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
>>>>>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
>>>>>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one,
>>>>>>even
>>>>>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
>>>>> which
>>>>> one I should use as the indicator.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would
>>>>>>allow
>>>>>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit
>>>>>>to
>>>>>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
>>>>>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
>>>>>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
>>>>>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
>>>>>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
>>>>>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
>>>>>> considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How
>>>>>>is
>>>>>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
>>>>>> many
>>>>> avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you
>>>>>share
>>>>> a
>>>>> few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now
>>>>>>in
>>>>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
>>>>>SCI."
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
>>>>>> wanted to
>>>>> protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
>>>>> logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what
>>>>>appears
>>>>> to
>>>>> be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>>> original
>>>>> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
>>>>>within
>>>>> the
>>>>> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
>>>>> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
>>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
>>>>>> this
>>>>> email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more
>>>>>once
>>>>> RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
>>>>>> non-XML
>>>>> extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
>>>>> logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more
>>>>>about
>>>>> the
>>>>> included data in most cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
>>>>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating
>>>>>on
>>>>> the
>>>>> report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level
>>>>>higher
>>>>> (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData
>>>>>extension
>>>>> point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
>>>>>> that
>>>>> would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
>>>>> the
>>>>> Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or
>>>>>AdditionalData
>>>>> do
>>>>> allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI
>>>>>draft
>>>>> handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come
>>>>>directly
>>>>> off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes
>>>>>sense
>>>>> from a logical standpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
>>>>>> various
>>>>> indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas
>>>>>that
>>>>> include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an
>>>>>attribute
>>>>> to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this
>>>>>enough
>>>>> to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could
>>>>>add
>>>>> something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then
>>>>>correlate
>>>>> to
>>>>> the reference or GUID identifiers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are
>>>>>>not
>>>>>> in
>>>>> the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or"
>>>>>to
>>>>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
>>>>>these
>>>>> indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in
>>>>>multiple
>>>>> places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
>>>>> format.  If
>>>>> we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
>>>>> should
>>>>> we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData
>>>>>class
>>>>> AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
>>>>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
>>>>>class
>>>>> that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or
>>>>>we
>>>>> could
>>>>> continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
>>>>> then
>>>>> have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I
>>>>>like
>>>>> the latter approach.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
>>>>>> Henry
>>>>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>>>>>> To: mile@ietf.org
>>>>>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greetings Everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning
>>>>>>of
>>>>>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
>>>>>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
>>>>>> could
>>>>> be
>>>>>> conveyed without using SCI draft.
>>>>>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
>>>>>> the indicators.
>>>>>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
>>>>>> class,
>>>>> if
>>>>>> needed.
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> -------------------------
>>>>>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
>>>>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
>>>>>that's
>>>>> why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
>>>>> locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
>>>>> EventData Class.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
>>>>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
>>>>> this
>>>>> issue?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>>> original
>>>>> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
>>>>>within
>>>>> the
>>>>> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
>>>>> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mile mailing list
>mile@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile


From Kent_Landfield@mcafee.com  Wed Feb 13 05:47:41 2013
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From: <Kent_Landfield@McAfee.com>
To: <john.banghart@nist.gov>, <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low, medium=
 and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will want to show t=
hat confidence in a situation is increasing or decreasing.  If we are only =
looking at a three levels, we cannot express what is needed to show confide=
nce is trending up on the data being exchanged about the event.

Kathleen included the following in a previous message.

<Confidence rating=3D"low"/>

Vs:

<Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>

I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded to sinc=
e confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is indeed subjec=
tive and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate confidence index tha=
t the sender is trying to convey.

Kent Landfield

McAfee | An Intel Company
Direct: +1.972.963.7096
Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
Web: www.mcafee.com<http://www.mcafee.com/>

From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov<mailto:john.banghar=
t@nist.gov>>
Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com<mailto:Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>>,=
 Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty@emc.=
com>>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:trammell@tik.ee.ethz.=
ch>>
Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.=
com>>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Paul,

I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be reduced
within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization of indicators
and response between tightly connected sharing partners might require a
more specific level of detail, particularly during a crisis situation.

>From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for additional
granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as preferred for
broad interoperability.

-John

On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com<mailto:Paul.Sto=
ecker@rsa.com>> wrote:

I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)

Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
essentially would say something like:

1-33 =3D Low
34-67=3D Medium
68-100=3DHigh

Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low, Medium,
High...do we really thing that how High something is makes that much of a
difference?

This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does Not
Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High
Meets...your
bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other Meets got
;-)

Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why use
numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.


Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com<mailto:paul.stoecker@rsa.com>






On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<mailto:=
kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>>
wrote:

Hello,

Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The representation
looks a little different for each, here is an example:

<Confidence rating=3D"low"/>

Vs:

<Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>

Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from
more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
specifying how to select ranges.

Any other opinions?

Thanks,
Kathleen

-----Original Message-----
From: Stoecker, Paul
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
To: Brian Trammell
Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium, and
Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate against
the schema.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell" <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mail=
to:trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>
wrote:

Hi, Kathleen, all,

I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build
interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
(Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean
"we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and rigorous
than it needs to be.)

Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably
measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, however
educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own scales such
that each value generally means the same thing in each report. Across
teams, I don't know.

On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating a
response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,
though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.

If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I
agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note
that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high,
unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the
users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning "yes" and 0
meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is purely
coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent" in 5070-bis.

Best regards,

Brian (as contributor)


On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
<kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>> wrote:

Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for
anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various markers
that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating the markers
meaning.

I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned
from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective element
to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary from
entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to consider
who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to
your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Kathleen

From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
To: MILE IETF
Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs


Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears
that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization to
be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.

Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of
urgency.
( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  Urge=
nt,
5 =3D Imminent )

Thanks,
C. Henry Adams



I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence
the
way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me
an IoC
with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a
scale of
1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability
to
describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
when we
store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are
numeric
as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very problematic.

At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
recommend
that we revisit this at some point.

Thanks,

--Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Hi Chris & Take,

I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
allows for
you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and
high.
Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
If
people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful
to have
guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.

I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches,
so
we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is
nice to
keep in flexible options where we can.

Thank you,
Kathleen

-----Original Message-----
From: Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs

My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break
it
down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on
scoring,
rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand
low/med/high
without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the
level.

Low - I am not sure
Medium - I am reasonably sure
High - I am very sure


Thanks,

--Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to
deal
with large sets of indicators.
Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
omitted
if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.

Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
attribute
for the reason Chris kindly described.
I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
For
instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",
etc?

Thank you.
Take


-----Original Message-----
From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have
seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:

Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor

Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
science by any means.

Thanks,

--Chris


-----Original Message-----
From: Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Hi Take & others,

Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a
few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view
point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that
could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be
better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).

-----Original Message-----
From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

I like this discussion.
I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
the IOC-related classes.

KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get
into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could
also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that
could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I
agree it doesn't make as much sense.

What do others think?

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not
fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for
these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
(more details
on
this in my first message).

If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event
record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the
XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.

KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into
guidance
in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?


For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
KMM: Sounds good, thanks!

I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
the indicator_set_id.
I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any
other way to express these groupings.
For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
In
this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?

KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
relationships
in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it
into
the current
structure.
If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
options, that would be appreciated!

Thank you,
Kathleen

I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
I
think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
mis-understood some points.

By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
classes'
attributes so that they can be correlated with another information
as
well.

Thanks
Take



From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-boun=
ces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
If
I give you
2
registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
have the same group ID since they are related.

Thanks,
--Chris

From: Stoecker, Paul
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
same group ID.
Would this resolve the issue?

It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them
into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them
as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
complicated like STIX.

Paul


Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com<mailto:paul.stoecker@rsa.com>


From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<mailto:kathleen.moria=
rty@emc.com>>
Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com<mailto:Christ=
opher.Harrington@emc.com>>, MILE
IETF <mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Hi Chris,

I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.

The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to
the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes
back in July, both for guidance and for
format
updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least
some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at
least a proposed solution.

As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
new category attribute values for the System class that would connect
the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
AttackType
(FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader
term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute
values
like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added
context
so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.

I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
indicators,
add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect
indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of
indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared
into the base IODEF.

Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we
could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
for
other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System
class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at the
more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an
indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Maybe
we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions on
this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas
that may work better.

We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values
or something else.

Thank you!
Kathleen

From: Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
show are
related:

Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
threat:
       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
compromise.

Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
threat:
       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
not
be
present.

The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
where
both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that
logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send
multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.

The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
send both the
MD5
and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the
IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
use
a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher
level
grouping.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

--Chris

Christopher Harrington
Consulting Security Engineer
GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
174 Middlesex Turnpike
Bedford, MA 01730
781-515-5862 (work)
603-583-1585 (cell)

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-boun=
ces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

All -

I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from
the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
and additionally in Paul's message.

Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.

Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
context information that may also include IP address or other data
that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to
connect
sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability
to
have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,
as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded
schemas.

If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to
mark
who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing
when it is not permitted or handle that separately?

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on
this in my first message).

Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
solution to have this machine automatable.

Thank you,
Kathleen

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-boun=
ces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of C.
Henry Adams & BIE
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran
across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking
the IP Address to your computer?"

I replied, "I don't know, how?"

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL

Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
or
let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the
great
minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize
reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their
pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar
devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that
makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
cutting it off (figuratively speaking).

Just a visionary thought.

C. Henry Adams
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com>
http://biemediagroup.com


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
original recipient. This information is granted for limited
distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
prohibited.

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org<mailto:david.misell@=
bcs.org>> wrote:

From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org<mailto:david.misell@bcs.org>>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.=
com>>
Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
DNS
SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?

Yours Faithfully,

Dave Misell MSc CISSP
SilentCircle  dsm
07710 380044
david.misell@bcs.org<mailto:david.misell@bcs.org>


On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
<chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com>>
wrote:

Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
was
closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
"consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds
in some instances."

However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
would
be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study
this
Security Art Form in a negative way.

C. Henry Adams
chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Email) chenryad=
ams@biemediagroup.com<mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com>


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
within
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

Re: [mile] IOCs

Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
From:
"Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com<mailto:Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>>
To:
"mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>" <mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>>
I would like to look at this from a slightly different
perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one,
even
if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
which
one I should use as the indicator.

If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would
allow
us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit
to
being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
activity that I have detected off of those indicators.


I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How
is
the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?

Regards,

Paul



Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com<mailto:paul.stoecker@rsa.com>

--- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:cha=
tlga2000@yahoo.com>>
wrote:

From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.=
com>>
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com>>
Cc: mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>
Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM

Greetings Kathleen,

Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
many
avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you
share
a
few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
----------------------------------------------
"we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now
in
IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
SCI."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
---------------------------------------------

You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
wanted to
protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what
appears
to
be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.



C. Henry Adams
chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Email)
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com>

The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
within
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

--- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<mailto:k=
athleen.moriarty@emc.com>>
wrote:

From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<mailto:kathleen.moriart=
y@emc.com>>
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.=
com>>, "mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>"
<mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>>
Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM

Hello C. Henry & others,

Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
this
email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more
once
RFC5070-bis is actively edited).

The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
non-XML
extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more
about
the
included data in most cases.

The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating
on
the
report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level
higher
(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData
extension
point.

Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
that
would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
the
Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or
AdditionalData
do
allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI
draft
handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come
directly
off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes
sense
from a logical standpoint.

As for my question, it was two-fold.

Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
various
indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas
that
include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an
attribute
to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this
enough
to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could
add
something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then
correlate
to
the reference or GUID identifiers.

Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are
not
in
the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or"
to
specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
these
indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in
multiple
places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
format.  If
we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
should
we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData
class
AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....

A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
class
that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or
we
could
continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
then
have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I
like
the latter approach.

Thank you,
Kathleen
________________________________________
From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org> [mile-bounces@iet=
f.org<mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of C.
Henry
Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com>]
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
To: mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>
Cc: C. Henry Adams
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Greetings Everyone,

Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
--------------------------
1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning
of
information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.

2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
could
be
conveyed without using SCI draft.
For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
the indicators.
We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
class,
if
needed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
--------------------------

In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"

Whereas, Kathleen stated,
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
-------------------------
For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
that's
why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
locations or a specific area within the EventData.

Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
------------------------

Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
EventData Class.

Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
this
issue?


C. Henry Adams
chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Email)
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com>


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
within
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
_______________________________________________
mile mailing list
mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

_______________________________________________
mile mailing list
mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

_______________________________________________
mile mailing list
mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile


_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

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--_000_3CBA099FBA0AB843895D72474092B8CF14CC18MIVEXAMER1N1corpn_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2"
Content-ID: <1A93FCE1F84ADC4B804E281306FC4EAF@McAfee.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
2">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-fami=
ly: 'Times New Roman', sans-serif; ">
<div>
<div>
<div>I agree that what we really need is both. &nbsp;In most situations a l=
ow, medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will want=
 to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or decreasing. &nbsp;=
If we are only looking at a three levels,
 we cannot express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the =
data being exchanged about the event.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kathleen included the following in a previous message.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; font-size: medium; ">&lt;Confidence ra=
ting=3D&quot;low&quot;/&gt;</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; font-size: medium; "><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; font-size: medium; ">Vs:</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; font-size: medium; "><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; font-size: medium; ">&lt;Confidence ra=
ting=3D&quot;numeric&quot;&gt;85&lt;/&gt;</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded to=
 since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is indeed s=
ubjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate confidence inde=
x that the sender is trying to convey.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(96, 106, 113); fo=
nt-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; border-spacing: 1=
px; "><strong>Kent Landfield</strong><br>
<br>
<strong>McAfee | An Intel Company</strong><br>
Direct: &#43;1.972.963.7096&nbsp;<br>
Mobile: &#43;1.817.637.8026<br>
<strong>Web:&nbsp;</strong><a href=3D"http://www.mcafee.com/" style=3D"colo=
r: rgb(96, 106, 113) !important; ">www.mcafee.com</a></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&lt;Banghart&gt;, John Bangha=
rt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:john.banghart@nist.gov">john.banghart@nist.gov</a>=
&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday, February 13, 2013 =
7:16 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;, Kat=
hleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.mo=
riarty@emc.com</a>&gt;, Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trammell@tik.e=
e.ethz.ch">trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a=
>&gt;, MILE IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [mile] IOCs<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>
<div>
<div>Paul,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be reduced=
</div>
<div>within communities that interact frequently.&nbsp;&nbsp;Prioritization=
 of indicators</div>
<div>and response between tightly connected sharing partners might require =
a</div>
<div>more specific level of detail, particularly during a crisis situation.=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for additiona=
l</div>
<div>granularity, while stressing the &quot;high, medium, low&quot; as pref=
erred for</div>
<div>broad interoperability.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-John</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, &quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:P=
aul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective<=
/div>
<div>terms:&nbsp;&nbsp;Low, Medium, High.&nbsp;&nbsp;Having a numeric scale=
 with a map that</div>
<div>essentially would say something like:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1-33 =3D Low</div>
<div>34-67=3D Medium</div>
<div>68-100=3DHigh</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low, Medium=
,</div>
<div>High...do we really thing that how High something is makes that much o=
f a</div>
<div>difference?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does Not=
</div>
<div>Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High</div=
>
<div>Meets...your</div>
<div>bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other Meets g=
ot</div>
<div>;-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that<=
/div>
<div>confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why=
 use</div>
<div>numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.</div>
<div>SMC Lead Content Architect</div>
<div>RSA, The Security Division of EMC</div>
<div>cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a href=3D"mailto:paul.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.=
stoecker@rsa.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, &quot;Moriarty, Kathleen&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:kathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Hello,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Both approaches will validate in the current schema.&nbsp;&nbsp;The re=
presentation</div>
<div>looks a little different for each, here is an example:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot;low&quot;/&gt;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Vs:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot;numeric&quot;&gt;85&lt;/&gt;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Searching capability is a great point, agreed.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like to =
hear from</div>
<div>more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find</=
div>
<div>extremely useful (need to gauge that).&nbsp;&nbsp;Other options is tha=
t the</div>
<div>guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to</di=
v>
<div>specifying how to select ranges.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Any other opinions?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Stoecker, Paul</div>
<div>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM</div>
<div>To: Brian Trammell</div>
<div>Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE; MILE IETF</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:&nbsp;&nbsp;High=
, Medium, and</div>
<div>Low?&nbsp;&nbsp;Any other value means that the Document will mot valid=
ate against</div>
<div>the schema.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, &quot;Brian Trammell&quot; &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch">trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;</div>
<div>wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Hi, Kathleen, all,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build<=
/div>
<div>interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.</d=
iv>
<div>(Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value &quot;70&quot; w=
ould mean</div>
<div>&quot;we compared this incident report to N past similar incident repo=
rts</div>
<div>according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had</=
div>
<div>assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I</=
div>
<div>think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and rigorous=
</div>
<div>than it needs to be.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably<=
/div>
<div>measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in</div>
<div>many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, howev=
er</div>
<div>educated.&nbsp;&nbsp;Each team will probably naturally tune its own sc=
ales such</div>
<div>that each value generally means the same thing in each report. Across<=
/div>
<div>teams, I don't know.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated</div>
<div>guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating =
a</div>
<div>response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,</=
div>
<div>though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.<=
/div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we've seen a general trend toward &quot;0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%&quot=
;, then I</div>
<div>agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note<=
/div>
<div>that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high,=
</div>
<div>unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the</=
div>
<div>users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning &quot;yes&q=
uot; and 0</div>
<div>meaning &quot;any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is =
purely</div>
<div>coincidental&quot;, then let's consider renaming it &quot;percent&quot=
; in 5070-bis.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian (as contributor)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, &quot;Moriarty, Kathleen&quot;</div>
<div>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.&nbsp;&nbsp;W=
e can</div>
<div>change it if it needs to be changed.&nbsp;&nbsp;The value is for a con=
fidence</div>
<div>rating on the indicators shared.&nbsp;&nbsp;The definitions may be hel=
pful for</div>
<div>anyone who wants to work on this discussion.&nbsp;&nbsp;IODEF has vari=
ous markers</div>
<div>that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating the markers=
</div>
<div>meaning.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more</div>
<div>helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned</=
div>
<div>from using the current structure (what works/does not work).&nbsp;&nbs=
p;The</div>
<div>scales I have seen are 0-100.&nbsp;&nbsp;There is of course a subjecti=
ve element</div>
<div>to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary from<=
/div>
<div>entity to entity.&nbsp;&nbsp;With this type of rating you may need to =
consider</div>
<div>who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to</=
div>
<div>your own rating.&nbsp;&nbsp;It would be good to hear more thoughts on =
this.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [<a href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.co=
m">mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]</div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM</div>
<div>To: MILE IETF</div>
<div>Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital</di=
v>
<div>point.&nbsp;&nbsp;Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.&nb=
sp;&nbsp;It appears</div>
<div>that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization to=
</div>
<div>be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of=
</div>
<div>urgency.</div>
<div>( i.e.&nbsp;&nbsp;1 =3D Less Likely,&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 =3D Probable,&nbsp;=
&nbsp;3 =3D A Concern,&nbsp;&nbsp;4 =3D&nbsp;&nbsp;Urgent,</div>
<div>5 =3D Imminent )</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>C. Henry Adams</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence=
</div>
<div>the</div>
<div>way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me</=
div>
<div>an IoC</div>
<div>with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a</d=
iv>
<div>scale of</div>
<div>1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability</=
div>
<div>to</div>
<div>describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly</di=
v>
<div>when we</div>
<div>store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are</di=
v>
<div>numeric</div>
<div>as well as text.&nbsp;&nbsp;Makes searching / sorting very problematic=
.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly</div=
>
<div>recommend</div>
<div>that we revisit this at some point.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--Chris</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Moriarty, Kathleen</div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM</div>
<div>To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;</div=
>
<div>'MILE</div>
<div>IETF'</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi Chris &amp; Take,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.&nbsp;&nbsp;Right now, the s=
chema</div>
<div>allows for</div>
<div>you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and=
</div>
<div>high.</div>
<div>Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.</=
div>
<div>If</div>
<div>people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful</=
div>
<div>to have</div>
<div>guidance.&nbsp;&nbsp;This could go in the IODE guidance document.</div=
>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches,=
</div>
<div>so</div>
<div>we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is</d=
iv>
<div>nice to</div>
<div>keep in flexible options where we can.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Harrington, Christopher</div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM</div>
<div>To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE</di=
v>
<div>IETF'</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of</div>
<div>indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP<=
/div>
<div>addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have<=
/div>
<div>separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break=
</div>
<div>it</div>
<div>down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on</di=
v>
<div>scoring,</div>
<div>rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand</div>
<div>low/med/high</div>
<div>without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the</div>
<div>level.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Low - I am not sure</div>
<div>Medium - I am reasonably sure</div>
<div>High - I am very sure</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--Chris</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Takeshi Takahashi [<a href=3D"mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.j=
p">mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>]</div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM</div>
<div>To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=
</div>
<div>IETF'</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to<=
/div>
<div>deal</div>
<div>with large sets of indicators.</div>
<div>Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be</di=
v>
<div>omitted</div>
<div>if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence</div>
<div>attribute</div>
<div>for the reason Chris kindly described.</div>
<div>I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?<=
/div>
<div>For</div>
<div>instance, 1 means &quot;no confidence&quot; while 5 means &quot;strong=
 confidence&quot;,</div>
<div>etc?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you.</div>
<div>Take</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Harrington, Christopher [<a href=3D"mailto:Christopher.Harringto=
n@emc.com">mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>]</div>
<div>Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM</div>
<div>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE</div>
<div>IETF'</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have</=
div>
<div>seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Indicator --&gt; Indictor Set --&gt; Campaign --&gt; Threat Actor</div=
>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a &quot;Confidence&quot; at=
tribute</div>
<div>would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect</div=
>
<div>science by any means.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--Chris</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Moriarty, Kathleen</div>
<div>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM</div>
<div>To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE<=
/div>
<div>IETF'</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi Take &amp; others,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a</=
div>
<div>few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.&nbsp;&nbsp=
;I'll</div>
<div>provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view</=
div>
<div>point.&nbsp;&nbsp;We are also wondering how to also provide logic in I=
ODEF that</div>
<div>could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the</d=
iv>
<div>solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be<=
/div>
<div>better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Takeshi Takahashi [<a href=3D"mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.j=
p">mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>]</div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM</div>
<div>To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;</div>
<div>'MILE</div>
<div>IETF'</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>I like this discussion.</div>
<div>I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside</d=
iv>
<div>the IOC-related classes.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that</d=
iv>
<div>should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same</=
div>
<div>class that is a related issue, but a separate set.&nbsp;&nbsp;We could=
 as you</div>
<div>say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.</di=
v>
<div>The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get</=
div>
<div>into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;Th=
is could</div>
<div>also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that<=
/div>
<div>could have been shared previously.&nbsp;&nbsp;If there are a large num=
ber of</div>
<div>indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I</=
div>
<div>agree it doesn't make as much sense.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What do others think?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not</div>
<div>fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for</div>
<div>these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?</div>
<div>(more details</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div>on</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>this in my first message).</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event</div>
<div>record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the</div>
<div>XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.&nbsp;&nbsp;This should go int=
o</div>
<div>guidance</div>
<div>in the SCI draft.&nbsp;&nbsp;Does anyone else want to weigh in?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.</di=
v>
</blockquote>
<div>KMM: Sounds good, thanks!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of</d=
iv>
<div>the indicator_set_id.</div>
<div>I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids</d=
iv>
<div>and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any</div>
<div>other way to express these groupings.</div>
<div>For instance,&nbsp;&nbsp;a Reference class refers to several indicadto=
r_uids.</div>
</blockquote>
<div>In</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or</d=
iv>
<div>subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?&nbsp;&nbsp;W=
ould this</div>
<div>happen?&nbsp;&nbsp;Would it be easier to express relationships with se=
ts of</div>
<div>indicators in addition to individual indicators?&nbsp;&nbsp;By using t=
his, it</div>
<div>could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and</div>
<div>relationships</div>
<div>in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it</div=
>
<div>into</div>
<div>the current</div>
</blockquote>
<div>structure.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some</=
div>
<div>options, that would be appreciated!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though</d=
iv>
</blockquote>
<div>I</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have</div>
<div>mis-understood some points.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI</div=
>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div>classes'</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>attributes so that they can be correlated with another information</di=
v>
<div>as</div>
</blockquote>
<div>well.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div>Take</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: <a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</=
a> [<a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>] On Behalf</div>
<div>Of Harrington, Christopher</div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM</div>
<div>To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a</div>
<div>logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.</d=
iv>
<div>If</div>
<div>I give you</div>
<div>2</div>
<div>registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of</=
div>
<div>compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would</di=
v>
<div>have the same group ID since they are related.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>--Chris</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: Stoecker, Paul</div>
<div>Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM</div>
<div>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?</div=
>
<div>This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the</di=
v>
<div>same group ID.</div>
<div>Would this resolve the issue?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)<=
/div>
<div>class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them<=
/div>
<div>into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go</div>
<div>together.&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't mean a place to put indicators that are m=
issing</div>
<div>from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the</div=
>
<div>indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared</d=
iv>
<div>Incident.&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't know the answer here, but there has got t=
o be a</div>
<div>good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them<=
/div>
<div>as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something</div>
<div>complicated like STIX.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.</div>
<div>SMC Lead Content Architect</div>
<div>RSA, The Security Division of EMC</div>
<div>cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a href=3D"mailto:paul.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.=
stoecker@rsa.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: &lt;Moriarty&gt;, Kathleen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriar=
ty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM</div>
<div>To: &quot;Harrington, Christopher&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Christop=
her.Harrington@emc.com">Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>&gt;, MILE</div>
<div>IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi Chris,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.</d=
iv>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to</=
div>
<div>the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including</d=
iv>
<div>indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to</div=
>
<div>'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for</di=
v>
<div>sharing purposes.&nbsp;&nbsp;It was written before we used terms like<=
/div>
<div>indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of=
 changes</div>
<div>back in July, both for guidance and for</div>
</blockquote>
<div>format</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>updates.&nbsp;&nbsp;It may help to have the first draft try to address=
 at least</div>
<div>some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at</div=
>
<div>least a proposed solution.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between</di=
v>
<div>sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that</d=
iv>
<div>could have a relationship to each other within a document.&nbsp;&nbsp;=
In the</div>
<div>July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add</d=
iv>
<div>new category attribute values for the System class that would connect<=
/div>
<div>the list of included indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think we should still ke=
ep the</div>
<div>concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list</d=
iv>
<div>multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.&nbsp;&nbsp;Rose=
lla had</div>
<div>suggested pulling forward the &quot;FraudType&quot; from RFC5901, this=
 would</div>
<div>help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an</div>
<div>AttackType</div>
<div>(FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader</div=
>
<div>term).&nbsp;&nbsp;It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attrib=
ute</div>
<div>values</div>
<div>like &quot;C2-server&quot;, &quot;sinkhole&quot;,&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;Mal=
wareDistribution&quot; for added</div>
<div>context</div>
<div>so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of</div>
</blockquote>
<div>indicators,</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect<=
/div>
<div>indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of</d=
iv>
<div>indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the</di=
v>
<div>connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared</=
div>
<div>into the base IODEF.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and</div=
>
<div>hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help</di=
v>
<div>Chris below).&nbsp;&nbsp;What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs=
 as a</div>
<div>class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in</div>
<div>RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?</=
div>
<div>I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we</=
div>
<div>could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure</di=
v>
<div>for</div>
<div>other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System<=
/div>
<div>class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.&nbsp;&nbsp;The=
n at the</div>
<div>more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an<=
/div>
<div>indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?&nbsp;&nb=
sp;Maybe</div>
<div>we want indicator_set at the higher level?&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like some op=
inions on</div>
<div>this approach.&nbsp;&nbsp;&#43;1 if you agree, suggestions if you have=
 other ideas</div>
<div>that may work better.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent</div>
<div>forward sharing when not permitted.&nbsp;&nbsp;We may want to use thes=
e values</div>
<div>or something else.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you!</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: Harrington, Christopher</div>
<div>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM</div>
<div>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the</d=
iv>
<div>Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In<=
/div>
<div>that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to</di=
v>
<div>show are</div>
<div>related:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same</div>
<div>threat:</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The file hash of a malicious file=
 and the URL of the C2 that</div>
<div>the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a</div>
<div>compromise.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same</div>
<div>threat:</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 different registry values for t=
he same registry key. If</div>
<div>either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will</di=
v>
<div>not</div>
<div>be</div>
</blockquote>
<div>present.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario</div>
<div>where</div>
<div>both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that<=
/div>
<div>logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send</di=
v>
<div>multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different</div>
<div>indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to</di=
v>
<div>send both the</div>
<div>MD5</div>
<div>and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the</=
div>
<div>IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we</di=
v>
<div>use</div>
<div>a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher</=
div>
<div>level</div>
</blockquote>
<div>grouping.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thoughts?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--Chris</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christopher Harrington</div>
<div>Consulting Security Engineer</div>
<div>GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives<=
/div>
<div>174 Middlesex Turnpike</div>
<div>Bedford, MA 01730</div>
<div>781-515-5862 (work)</div>
<div>603-583-1585 (cell)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: <a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</=
a> [<a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>] On Behalf</div>
<div>Of Moriarty, Kathleen</div>
<div>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM</div>
<div>To: MILE IETF</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All -</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from</=
div>
<div>the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message</d=
iv>
<div>and additionally in Paul's message.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Interesting point, C. Henry.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our objective here is to have =
machine</div>
<div>automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation<=
/div>
<div>to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from</=
div>
<div>context information that may also include IP address or other data</di=
v>
<div>that could be indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;The question I raised was on how =
to</div>
<div>connect</div>
<div>sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability</d=
iv>
<div>to</div>
<div>have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,</=
div>
<div>as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded</div=
>
<div>schemas.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say</d=
iv>
<div>'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?&nbsp;&nbsp;Do we use th=
is to</div>
<div>mark</div>
<div>who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing<=
/div>
<div>when it is not permitted or handle that separately?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit</=
div>
<div>into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off</=
div>
<div>of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on<=
/div>
<div>this in my first message).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical</d=
iv>
<div>solution to have this machine automatable.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: <a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</=
a> [<a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>] On Behalf</div>
<div>Of C.</div>
<div>Henry Adams &amp; BIE</div>
<div>Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM</div>
<div>To: MILE IETF</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp;&nbsp;I remember when I f=
irst ran</div>
<div>across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a</div=
>
<div>peculiar question.&nbsp;&nbsp;He said, &quot; How do you stop someone =
from tracking</div>
<div>the IP Address to your computer?&quot;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I replied, &quot;I don't know, how?&quot;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then he said, &quot;Cut the dog-gone thing off&nbsp;&nbsp;and the mode=
m that it is</div>
<div>connected- which is constantly on!&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; LOL</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :&nbsp;&nbsp;There is a 1st R=
esponder</div>
<div>searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster</d=
iv>
<div>or</div>
<div>let's just say &quot;Live&quot; Terrorist Situation.&nbsp;&nbsp;He /or=
 She needs to</div>
<div>communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in</div>
<div>Danger.&nbsp;&nbsp;The device used to communicate has been captured by=
 the</div>
<div>great</div>
<div>minds of the enemy.&nbsp;&nbsp;It's only a matter of time before they =
utilize</div>
<div>reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.&nbsp;&nbsp;However=
, their</div>
<div>pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar</=
div>
<div>devices to attack.&nbsp;&nbsp;Why? Perhaps the less thought of concept=
s that</div>
<div>makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or</div>
<div>cutting it off (figuratively speaking).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just a visionary thought.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C. Henry Adams</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediag=
roup.com</a></div>
<div><a href=3D"http://biemediagroup.com">http://biemediagroup.com</a></div=
>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the</div>
<div>original recipient. This information is granted for limited</div>
<div>distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning</di=
v>
<div>purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is</di=
v>
<div>prohibited.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.misell@bc=
s.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: Dave Misell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.misell@bcs.org">david.mi=
sell@bcs.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div>To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chatlga=
2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with</di=
v>
<div>DNS</div>
<div>SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yours Faithfully,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dave Misell MSc CISSP</div>
<div>SilentCircle&nbsp;&nbsp;dsm</div>
<div>07710 380044</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:david.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE</div>
<div>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt;</div>
<div>wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way</di=
v>
<div>was</div>
</blockquote>
<div>closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,</div>
<div>&quot;consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant m=
inds</div>
<div>in some instances.&quot;</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.&nbsp;&nbsp;Howev=
er, it</div>
<div>would</div>
</blockquote>
<div>be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study</div=
>
<div>this</div>
<div>Security Art Form in a negative way.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C. Henry Adams</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Di=
rect Email)
<a href=3D"mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.=
com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the</div>
<div>original</div>
</blockquote>
<div>recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution</div>
<div>within</div>
<div>the</div>
<div>recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further</div=
>
<div>dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM</div>
<div>From:</div>
<div>&quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com=
">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>To:</div>
<div>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div>I would like to look at this from a slightly different</div>
<div>perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an</=
div>
<div>incident.&nbsp;&nbsp;This document has source IP and destination IP th=
at is</div>
<div>being shared.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, what I don't know is which IP addres=
s is my</div>
<div>indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.&nbsp;&n=
bsp;This</div>
<div>means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use</=
div>
<div>either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one,</div>
<div>even</div>
<div>if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system</d=
iv>
</blockquote>
<div>which</div>
<div>one I should use as the indicator.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would</div>
<div>allow</div>
<div>us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.&nbsp;&nbsp;I do=
 admit</div>
<div>to</div>
<div>being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the</div>
<div>monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking</=
div>
<div>of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML</div>
<div>document and the other data that may be important as I investigate</di=
v>
<div>activity that I have detected off of those indicators.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more</div>
<div>flexibility with the indicator_uid.&nbsp;&nbsp;One thing that I haven'=
t</div>
<div>considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?&nbsp;&=
nbsp;How</div>
<div>is</div>
<div>the UID created?&nbsp;&nbsp;Are there standards for UIDs?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.</div>
<div>SMC Lead Content Architect</div>
<div>RSA, The Security Division of EMC</div>
<div>cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a href=3D"mailto:paul.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.=
stoecker@rsa.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ch=
atlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo=
.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div>To: &quot;KathleenMoriarty&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriar=
ty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>
<div>Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greetings Kathleen,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the</di=
v>
<div>many</div>
</blockquote>
<div>avenues you review with this approach at once.&nbsp;&nbsp;However,&nbs=
p;&nbsp;could you</div>
<div>share</div>
<div>a</div>
<div>few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?</div>
<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</=
div>
<div>--------</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>&quot;we could continue to group items in logical places as is done no=
w</div>
<div>in</div>
</blockquote>
<div>IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via</d=
iv>
<div>SCI.&quot;</div>
<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</=
div>
<div>--------</div>
<div>---------------------------------------------</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I</div>
<div>wanted to</div>
</blockquote>
<div>protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your<=
/div>
<div>logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what</div>
<div>appears</div>
<div>to</div>
<div>be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C. Henry Adams</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Di=
rect Email)</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediag=
roup.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the</div>
<div>original</div>
</blockquote>
<div>recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution</div>
<div>within</div>
<div>the</div>
<div>recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further</div=
>
<div>dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen=
.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>
</blockquote>
<div>wrote:</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty@emc.c=
om">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div>To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chatlga=
2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mile=
@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot;</div>
</blockquote>
<div>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hello C. Henry &amp; others,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for taking a look at this.&nbsp;&nbsp;We have a few considerati=
ons in</div>
<div>this</div>
</blockquote>
<div>email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more</=
div>
<div>once</div>
<div>RFC5070-bis is actively edited).</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for</div>
<div>non-XML</div>
</blockquote>
<div>extensions.&nbsp;&nbsp;Where you place the extensions should be specif=
ic to the</div>
<div>logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more</di=
v>
<div>about</div>
<div>the</div>
<div>included data in most cases.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the</di=
v>
</blockquote>
<div>included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating</=
div>
<div>on</div>
<div>the</div>
<div>report as a whole.&nbsp;&nbsp;Extensions related to impact would be on=
e level</div>
<div>higher</div>
<div>(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData</div>
<div>extension</div>
<div>point.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think</d=
iv>
<div>that</div>
</blockquote>
<div>would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in<=
/div>
<div>the</div>
<div>Method class.&nbsp;&nbsp;He did ask about non-XML.&nbsp;&nbsp;RecordIt=
em or</div>
<div>AdditionalData</div>
<div>do</div>
<div>allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI</div>
<div>draft</div>
<div>handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come</div=
>
<div>directly</div>
<div>off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes</=
div>
<div>sense</div>
<div>from a logical standpoint.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As for my question, it was two-fold.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the</div=
>
<div>various</div>
</blockquote>
<div>indicators they share.&nbsp;&nbsp;If we are extending to embed other s=
chemas</div>
<div>that</div>
<div>include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an</div>
<div>attribute</div>
<div>to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?&nbsp;&nbsp;=
Is this</div>
<div>enough</div>
<div>to make the connections or is something else else needed?&nbsp;&nbsp;W=
e could</div>
<div>add</div>
<div>something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then</div>
<div>correlate</div>
<div>to</div>
<div>the reference or GUID identifiers.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are</div=
>
<div>not</div>
<div>in</div>
</blockquote>
<div>the base schema that may be related or have language with &quot;and&qu=
ot; &quot;or&quot;</div>
<div>to</div>
<div>specify the relationships.&nbsp;&nbsp;In some cases, you will want to =
group</div>
<div>these</div>
<div>indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in</div=
>
<div>multiple</div>
<div>places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data</div>
<div>format.&nbsp;&nbsp;If</div>
<div>we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,</=
div>
<div>should</div>
<div>we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData</div=
>
<div>class</div>
<div>AdditionalData extension point?&nbsp;&nbsp;Opinions are needed here...=
.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared</d=
iv>
</blockquote>
<div>indictors into the base IODEF document.&nbsp;&nbsp;We could have a cat=
ch-all</div>
<div>class</div>
<div>that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or</d=
iv>
<div>we</div>
<div>could</div>
<div>continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and<=
/div>
<div>then</div>
<div>have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.&nbsp;&nbsp;I=
 think I</div>
<div>like</div>
<div>the latter approach.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div>________________________________________</div>
<div>From: <a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</=
a> [<a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On =
Behalf Of C.</div>
<div>Henry</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Adams &amp; BIE [<a href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@=
yahoo.com</a>]</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM</div>
<div>To: <a href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>
<div>Cc: C. Henry Adams</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greetings Everyone,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :</div>
</blockquote>
<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</=
div>
<div>--------</div>
<div>--------------------------</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning</di=
v>
<div>of</div>
<div>information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the</di=
v>
<div>SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it</d=
iv>
<div>could</div>
</blockquote>
<div>be</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>conveyed without using SCI draft.</div>
<div>For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey</d=
iv>
<div>the indicators.</div>
<div>We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact</div=
>
<div>class,</div>
</blockquote>
<div>if</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>needed.</div>
</blockquote>
<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</=
div>
<div>--------</div>
<div>--------------------------</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In doing so he pointed out the &quot;Impact Class&quot;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Whereas, Kathleen stated,</div>
</blockquote>
<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</=
div>
<div>--------</div>
<div>-------------------------</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with</di=
v>
</blockquote>
<div>relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so</di=
v>
<div>that's</div>
<div>why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better<=
/div>
<div>locations or a specific area within the EventData.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul Stoecker had suggested a &quot;Detection&quot; class as a conside=
ration.</div>
</blockquote>
<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</=
div>
<div>--------</div>
<div>------------------------</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the</div=
>
</blockquote>
<div>EventData Class.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass</div=
>
</blockquote>
<div>combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify<=
/div>
<div>this</div>
<div>issue?</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C. Henry Adams</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Di=
rect Email)</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:chenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediag=
roup.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the</div>
<div>original</div>
</blockquote>
<div>recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution</div>
<div>within</div>
<div>the</div>
<div>recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further</div=
>
<div>dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>_______________________________________________</div>
<div>mile mailing list</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a></div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________</div>
<div>mile mailing list</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________</div>
<div>mile mailing list</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________</div>
<div>mile mailing list</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________</div>
<div>mile mailing list</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 07:24:08 -0800 (PST)
From: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
To: MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
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=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAgain, I would concur that both a numeric and subject=
ive analysis of the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in =
a simplified schema as such below:

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>

( i.e.=C2=A0=C2=A01 =3D Less Likely,=C2=A0=C2=A0 2 =3D Probable,=C2=A0=C2=
=A03 =3D A Concern,=C2=A0=C2=A04 =3D=C2=A0=C2=A0Urgent, 5 =3D Imminent )

Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated definitions=
 can lower the propagation of error regarding the analysis.=C2=A0=C2=A0=20

Thanks,
C. Henry Adams


I agree that what we really need is both. =C2=A0In most situations a =0Alow=
, medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will =0Awan=
t to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or decreasing.=0A =
=C2=A0If we are only looking at a three levels,=0A we cannot express what i=
s needed to show confidence is trending up on =0Athe data being exchanged a=
bout the event.=0A
=0A=0AKathleen included the following in a previous message.=0A
=0A=0A=0A<Confidence rating=3D"low"/>=0A
=0A=0AVs:=0A
=0A=0A<Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>=0A=0A
=0A=0AI really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded=
=0A to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is =
=0Aindeed subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate =0Ac=
onfidence index that the sender is trying to convey.=0A
=0A=0AKent Landfield
=0A
=0AMcAfee | An Intel Company
=0ADirect: +1.972.963.7096=C2=A0
=0AMobile: +1.817.637.8026
=0AWeb:=C2=A0www.mcafee.com=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov>
=0ADate: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
=0ATo: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathlee=
n.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
=0ACc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf=
.org>
=0ASubject: Re: [mile] IOCs
=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0APaul,=0A
=0A=0AI agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be reduce=
d=0Awithin communities that interact frequently.=C2=A0=C2=A0Prioritization =
of indicators=0Aand response between tightly connected sharing partners mig=
ht require a=0Amore specific level of detail, particularly during a crisis =
situation.=0A
=0A=0AFrom that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for addition=
al=0Agranularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as preferred for=
=0Abroad interoperability.=0A
=0A=0A-John=0A
=0A=0AOn 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:=
=0A
=0A=0A=0AI may have been too succinct in my response ;-)=0A
=0A=0AConfidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective=
=0Aterms:=C2=A0=C2=A0Low, Medium, High.=C2=A0=C2=A0Having a numeric scale w=
ith a map that=0Aessentially would say something like:=0A
=0A=0A1-33 =3D Low=0A34-67=3D Medium=0A68-100=3DHigh=0A
=0A=0AIs just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low, Mediu=
m,=0AHigh...do we really thing that how High something is makes that much o=
f a=0Adifference?=0A
=0A=0AThis is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does No=
t=0AMeet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High=0AMee=
ts...your=0Abonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other =
Meets got=0A;-)=0A
=0A=0AAnyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that=
=0Aconfidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why u=
se=0Anumeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0APaul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.=0ASMC Lead Content Architect=0ARSA, The Secur=
ity Division of EMC=0Acell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AOn 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>=
=0Awrote:=0A
=0A=0A=0AHello,=0A
=0A=0ABoth approaches will validate in the current schema.=C2=A0=C2=A0The r=
epresentation=0Alooks a little different for each, here is an example:=0A
=0A=0A<Confidence rating=3D"low"/>=0A
=0A=0AVs:=0A
=0A=0A<Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>=0A
=0A=0ASearching capability is a great point, agreed.=C2=A0=C2=A0I'd like to=
 hear from=0Amore people to make sure we don't lose a capability that other=
s find=0Aextremely useful (need to gauge that).=C2=A0=C2=A0Other options is=
 that the=0Aguidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition=
 to=0Aspecifying how to select ranges.=0A
=0A=0AAny other opinions?=0A
=0A=0AThanks,=0AKathleen=0A
=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Stoecker, Paul=0ASent: Wednesday, =
February 13, 2013 7:14 AM=0ATo: Brian Trammell=0ACc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C.=
 Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF=0ASubject: Re: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0ACant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:=C2=A0=C2=A0Hig=
h, Medium, and=0ALow?=C2=A0=C2=A0Any other value means that the Document wi=
ll mot validate against=0Athe schema.=0A
=0A=0ASent from my iPhone=0A
=0A=0AOn Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell" <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.c=
h>=0Awrote:=0A
=0A=0A=0AHi, Kathleen, all,=0A
=0A=0AI think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build=
=0Ainteroperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.=0A(W=
ere I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean=0A"we c=
ompared this incident report to N past similar incident reports=0Aaccording=
 to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had=0Aassessed impa=
cts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I=0Athink for most ap=
plications this is vastly more difficult and rigorous=0Athan it needs to be=
.)=0A
=0A=0AUnless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably=
=0Ameasurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in=0Amany/=
most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, however=0Aeduca=
ted.=C2=A0=C2=A0Each team will probably naturally tune its own scales such=
=0Athat each value generally means the same thing in each report. Across=0A=
teams, I don't know.=0A
=0A=0AOn the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated=0Agu=
esses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating a=0Ares=
ponse based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,=0Athough =
-- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.=0A
=0A=0AIf we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I=
=0Aagree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note=0A=
that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high,=0Aun=
less we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the=0Ausers =
of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning "yes" and 0=0Ameaning =
"any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is purely=0Acoinciden=
tal", then let's consider renaming it "percent" in 5070-bis.=0A
=0A=0ABest regards,=0A
=0A=0ABrian (as contributor)=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AOn Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"=0A<kathleen.moriart=
y@emc.com> wrote:=0A
=0A=0A=0APlease see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0We can=0Achange it if it needs to be changed.=C2=A0=C2=A0The value is fo=
r a confidence=0Arating on the indicators shared.=C2=A0=C2=A0The definition=
s may be helpful for=0Aanyone who wants to work on this discussion.=C2=A0=
=C2=A0IODEF has various markers=0Athat can be used in a complimentary way w=
ithout conflating the markers=0Ameaning.=0A
=0A=0AI think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more=0Ahelp=
ful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned=0Afrom usi=
ng the current structure (what works/does not work).=C2=A0=C2=A0The=0Ascale=
s I have seen are 0-100.=C2=A0=C2=A0There is of course a subjective element=
=0Ato assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary from=0A=
entity to entity.=C2=A0=C2=A0With this type of rating you may need to consi=
der=0Awho it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to=
=0Ayour own rating.=C2=A0=C2=A0It would be good to hear more thoughts on th=
is.=0A
=0A=0AThanks,=0AKathleen=0A
=0A=0AFrom: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]=0ASent: Tue=
sday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM=0ATo: MILE IETF=0ACc: Moriarty, Kathleen; '=
Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul=0ASubject: Re: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0ARegarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital=0A=
point.=C2=A0=C2=A0Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.=C2=A0=
=C2=A0It appears=0Athat there maybe a need for some type of simplified stan=
dardization to=0Abe established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.=
=0A
=0A=0APerhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels o=
f=0Aurgency.=0A( i.e.=C2=A0=C2=A01 =3D Less Likely,=C2=A0=C2=A0 2 =3D Proba=
ble,=C2=A0=C2=A03 =3D A Concern,=C2=A0=C2=A04 =3D=C2=A0=C2=A0Urgent,=0A5 =
=3D Imminent )=0A
=0A=0AThanks,=0AC. Henry Adams=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AI see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidenc=
e=0Athe=0Away it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends=
 me=0Aan IoC=0Awith a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am =
using a=0Ascale of=0A1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lo=
se the ability=0Ato=0Adescribe something with a consistent language. It rea=
lly gets ugly=0Awhen we=0Astore IoC from multiple sources. I have confidenc=
e values that are=0Anumeric=0Aas well as text.=C2=A0=C2=A0Makes searching /=
 sorting very problematic.=0A
=0A=0AAt this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly=0Ar=
ecommend=0Athat we revisit this at some point.=0A
=0A=0AThanks,=0A
=0A=0A--Chris=0A
=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Moriarty, Kathleen=0ASent: Tuesday=
, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM=0ATo: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahas=
hi'; Stoecker, Paul;=0A'MILE=0AIETF'=0ASubject: RE: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0AHi Chris & Take,=0A
=0A=0AI'll just focus on the confidence scoring.=C2=A0=C2=A0Right now, the =
schema=0Aallows for=0Ayou to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of=
 low, medium, and=0Ahigh.=0ADifferent sharing groups can decide how they wa=
nt to share the data.=0AIf=0Apeople were to use the numerical values, I agr=
ee it would be helpful=0Ato have=0Aguidance.=C2=A0=C2=A0This could go in th=
e IODE guidance document.=0A
=0A=0AI have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches=
,=0Aso=0Awe'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it i=
s=0Anice to=0Akeep in flexible options where we can.=0A
=0A=0AThank you,=0AKathleen=0A
=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Harrington, Christopher=0ASent: Tu=
esday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM=0ATo: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathl=
een; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=0AIETF'=0ASubject: RE: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0AThe number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of=0Aindi=
cator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP=0Aaddress=
es that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have=0Aseparate i=
ndicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs=0A
=0A=0AMy suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we brea=
k=0Ait=0Adown to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on=
=0Ascoring,=0Arating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand=
=0Alow/med/high=0Awithout having to have a mathematical method for arriving=
 at the=0Alevel.=0A
=0A=0ALow - I am not sure=0AMedium - I am reasonably sure=0AHigh - I am ver=
y sure=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AThanks,=0A
=0A=0A--Chris=0A
=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_=
takahashi@nict.go.jp]=0ASent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM=0ATo: Harr=
ington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=0AIETF'=0ASu=
bject: RE: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0ARegarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to=
=0Adeal=0Awith large sets of indicators.=0ASince indicator_set_id attribute=
 is optional (right?), it could be=0Aomitted=0Aif we need to deal with only=
 small number of indicators.=0A
=0A=0ARegarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence=0Aatt=
ribute=0Afor the reason Chris kindly described.=0AI would like to hear a bi=
t more on this: is it going to be numerical?=0AFor=0Ainstance, 1 means "no =
confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",=0Aetc?=0A
=0A=0AThank you.=0ATake=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Harrington, Christopher [mailto=
:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]=0ASent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM=
=0ATo: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=0AIETF'=
=0ASubject: RE: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0AWith respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have=
=0Aseen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:=0A
=0A=0AIndicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor=0A
=0A=0ACampaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute=
=0Awould be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect=0Ascie=
nce by any means.=0A
=0A=0AThanks,=0A
=0A=0A--Chris=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Moriarty, Kathleen=0ASent: Thursda=
y, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM=0ATo: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christoph=
er; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=0AIETF'=0ASubject: RE: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0AHi Take & others,=0A
=0A=0AThanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a=
=0Afew others on their use cases and would like more opinions.=C2=A0=C2=A0I=
'll=0Aprovide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view=
=0Apoint.=C2=A0=C2=A0We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IOD=
EF that=0Acould cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (t=
he=0Asolutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be=
=0Abetter/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).=0A
=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_=
takahashi@nict.go.jp]=0ASent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM=0ATo: Har=
rington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;=0A'MILE=0AIETF'=
=0ASubject: RE: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0A=0AI like this discussion.=0AI agree, it would be good idea to have i=
ndicator identifiers inside=0Athe IOC-related classes.=0A=0A
=0A=0AKMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that=
=0Ashould be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same=0Ac=
lass that is a related issue, but a separate set.=C2=A0=C2=A0We could as yo=
u=0Asay, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.=0ATh=
e set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get=0Ainto l=
ogic and relationships between sets or indicators.=C2=A0=C2=A0This could=0A=
also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that=0Acou=
ld have been shared previously.=C2=A0=C2=A0If there are a large number of=
=0Aindicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I=0Aa=
gree it doesn't make as much sense.=0A
=0A=0AWhat do others think?=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0AThen for indicators not included in the base schema that may no=
t=0Afit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for=0Athese =
off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?=0A(more details=0A=
=0A=0Aon=0A=0A=0Athis in my first message).=0A=0A
=0A=0AIf we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event=0Arecor=
d, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the=0AXML-based IOCs=
 that couldn't fit anywhere else.=0A=0A
=0A=0AKMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.=C2=A0=C2=A0This should go in=
to=0Aguidance=0Ain the SCI draft.=C2=A0=C2=A0Does anyone else want to weigh=
 in?=0A
=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0AFor the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.=0A=
=0AKMM: Sounds good, thanks!=0A
=0A=0A=0AI agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs o=
f=0Athe indicator_set_id.=0AI understand we could do some grouping of indiv=
idual indicator_uids=0Aand its usability, but I am not sure whether we do n=
ot have any=0Aother way to express these groupings.=0AFor instance,=C2=A0=
=C2=A0a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.=0A=0AIn=0A=0Athi=
s case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?=0A=0A
=0A=0AKMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or=
=0Asubsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?=C2=A0=C2=A0Wou=
ld this=0Ahappen?=C2=A0=C2=A0Would it be easier to express relationships wi=
th sets of=0Aindicators in addition to individual indicators?=C2=A0=C2=A0By=
 using this, it=0Acould give us a unique way to also provide the logic and=
=0Arelationships=0Ain a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about =
adding it=0Ainto=0Athe current=0A=0Astructure.=0A=0AIf there are better way=
s to handle that, and others can provide some=0Aoptions, that would be appr=
eciated!=0A
=0A=0AThank you,=0AKathleen=0A
=0A=0A=0AI would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Thoug=
h=0A=0AI=0A=0Athink I have read all the emails in the list, I might have=0A=
mis-understood some points.=0A
=0A=0ABy the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI=0A=
=0A=0Aclasses'=0A=0A=0Aattributes so that they can be correlated with anoth=
er information=0Aas=0A=0Awell.=0A=0A
=0A=0AThanks=0ATake=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AFrom: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=
=0AOf Harrington, Christopher=0ASent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM=0A=
To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF=0ASubject: Re: [mile] IOC=
s=0A
=0A=0AI think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a=0Alo=
gical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.=0AIf=0AI =
give you=0A2=0Aregistry keys do they both have to be present to be an indic=
ation of=0Acompromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both wou=
ld=0Ahave the same group ID since they are related.=0A
=0A=0AThanks,=0A--Chris=0A
=0A=0AFrom: Stoecker, Paul=0ASent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM=0ATo: =
Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF=0ASubject: Re: [mile=
] IOCs=0A
=0A=0AWhat if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?=0AT=
his would allow you to group indicators that are related into the=0Asame gr=
oup ID.=0AWould this resolve the issue?=0A
=0A=0AIt is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)=
=0Aclass that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them=0A=
into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go=0Atogether.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing=0Afrom =
IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the=0Aindicators t=
hat are used for detection and prevention of the shared=0AIncident.=C2=A0=
=C2=A0I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a=0Agood way fo=
r indicators to be identified and being able to group them=0Aas Chris has s=
uggested without basically recreating something=0Acomplicated like STIX.=0A
=0A=0APaul=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0APaul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.=0ASMC Lead Content Architect=0ARSA, The Secur=
ity Division of EMC=0Acell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AFrom: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>=0ADate: Sunday=
, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM=0ATo: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Har=
rington@emc.com>, MILE=0AIETF <mile@ietf.org>=0ASubject: Re: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0AHi Chris,=0A
=0A=0AI agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.=
=0A
=0A=0AThe list has already said they would like to see indicators added to=
=0Athe definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including=0Ain=
dicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to=0A'parts of=
 an incident or the useful information on an incident for=0Asharing purpose=
s.=C2=A0=C2=A0It was written before we used terms like=0Aindicators.=C2=A0=
=C2=A0With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes=0Aback in Jul=
y, both for guidance and for=0A=0Aformat=0A=0Aupdates.=C2=A0=C2=A0It may he=
lp to have the first draft try to address at least=0Asome of these issues s=
o people can understand the problems and at=0Aleast a proposed solution.=0A
=0A=0AAs you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between=0A=
sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that=0Acould=
 have a relationship to each other within a document.=C2=A0=C2=A0In the=0AJ=
uly presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add=0Anew ca=
tegory attribute values for the System class that would connect=0Athe list =
of included indicators.=C2=A0=C2=A0I think we should still keep the=0Aconce=
pt of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list=0Amultiple s=
ets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.=C2=A0=C2=A0Rosella had=0Asugge=
sted pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would=0Ahelp solve =
the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an=0AAttackType=0A(FraudType =
values could be included in AttackType or some broader=0Aterm).=C2=A0=C2=A0=
It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute=0Avalues=0Alike "C2=
-server", "sinkhole",=C2=A0=C2=A0"MalwareDistribution" for added=0Acontext=
=0Aso you know what to do with the received set of indicators.=0A
=0A=0AI am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of=0A=0A=
indicators,=0A=0Aadd an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method=
 to connect=0Aindicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attrib=
ute of=0Aindicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the=
=0Aconnection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared=0Ai=
nto the base IODEF.=0A
=0A=0ABack in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and=0Ah=
ashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help=0AChris b=
elow).=C2=A0=C2=A0What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a=0Aclas=
s off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in=0ARFC5901, and=
 also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?=0AI think if we th=
en had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we=0Acould connect a set =
within that structure and repeat the structure=0Afor=0Aother sets in the sa=
me way we would do with Node inside of the System=0Aclass, using the indica=
tor_uid to tie the set together.=C2=A0=C2=A0Then at the=0Amore specific lev=
el for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an=0Aindicator_uid if we =
needed them marked at this level as well?=C2=A0=C2=A0Maybe=0Awe want indica=
tor_set at the higher level?=C2=A0=C2=A0I'd like some opinions on=0Athis ap=
proach.=C2=A0=C2=A0+1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas=0At=
hat may work better.=0A
=0A=0AWe'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent=0Afo=
rward sharing when not permitted.=C2=A0=C2=A0We may want to use these value=
s=0Aor something else.=0A
=0A=0AThank you!=0AKathleen=0A
=0A=0AFrom: Harrington, Christopher=0ASent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01=
 PM=0ATo: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF=0ASubject: RE: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0AI think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the=
=0AWatchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In=0A=
that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to=0Ashow a=
re=0Arelated:=0A
=0A=0ATwo or more indicators of different type that relate to the same=0Ath=
reat:=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The file hash of a malicious f=
ile and the URL of the C2 that=0Athe file uses. Either or both may be prese=
nt to indicate a=0Acompromise.=0A
=0A=0ATwo or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same=0Athr=
eat:=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2 different registry values for=
 the same registry key. If=0Aeither value is present it is a compromise ind=
icator but both will=0Anot=0Abe=0A=0Apresent.=0A=0A
=0A=0AThe problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario=0Awh=
ere=0Aboth groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that=
=0Alogical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send=0Amul=
tiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.=0A
=0A=0AThe last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different=0Aindi=
cators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to=0Asend both =
the=0AMD5=0Aand SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file bu=
t the=0AIOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we=
=0Ause=0Aa unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a high=
er=0Alevel=0A=0Agrouping.=0A=0A
=0A=0AThoughts?=0A
=0A=0AThanks,=0A
=0A=0A--Chris=0A
=0A=0AChristopher Harrington=0AConsulting Security Engineer=0AGSO - Critica=
l Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives=0A174 Middlesex Tu=
rnpike=0ABedford, MA 01730=0A781-515-5862 (work)=0A603-583-1585 (cell)=0A
=0A=0AFrom: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=
=0AOf Moriarty, Kathleen=0ASent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM=0ATo: M=
ILE IETF=0ASubject: Re: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0AAll -=0A
=0A=0AI'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from=
=0Athe list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message=0Aan=
d additionally in Paul's message.=0A
=0A=0AInteresting point, C. Henry.=C2=A0=C2=A0Our objective here is to have=
 machine=0Aautomated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfusc=
ation=0Ato achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.=0A
=0A=0APaul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from=
=0Acontext information that may also include IP address or other data=0Atha=
t could be indicators.=C2=A0=C2=A0The question I raised was on how to=0Acon=
nect=0Asets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability=
=0Ato=0Ahave watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included=
,=0Aas well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded=0Asch=
emas.=0A
=0A=0AIf we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say=
=0A'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?=C2=A0=C2=A0Do we use this=
 to=0Amark=0Awho sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward =
sharing=0Awhen it is not permitted or handle that separately?=0A
=0A=0AThen for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=
=0Ainto a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off=0Ao=
f SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on=0Athis=
 in my first message).=0A
=0A=0AComments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical=
=0Asolution to have this machine automatable.=0A
=0A=0AThank you,=0AKathleen=0A
=0A=0AFrom: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=
=0AOf C.=0AHenry Adams & BIE=0ASent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM=0ATo=
: MILE IETF=0ASubject: Re: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0ATemporal Dependency sounds interesting.=C2=A0=C2=A0I remember when I =
first ran=0Aacross this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me=
 a=0Apeculiar question.=C2=A0=C2=A0He said, " How do you stop someone from =
tracking=0Athe IP Address to your computer?"=0A
=0A=0AI replied, "I don't know, how?"=0A
=0A=0AThen he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off=C2=A0=C2=A0and the modem th=
at it is=0Aconnected- which is constantly on!"=C2=A0=C2=A0 LOL=0A
=0A=0AHere's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :=C2=A0=C2=A0There is a 1st =
Responder=0Asearching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disa=
ster=0Aor=0Alet's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.=C2=A0=C2=A0He /or Sh=
e needs to=0Acommunication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is i=
n=0ADanger.=C2=A0=C2=A0The device used to communicate has been captured by =
the=0Agreat=0Aminds of the enemy.=C2=A0=C2=A0It's only a matter of time bef=
ore they utilize=0Areverse engineering to figure out how it functions.=C2=
=A0=C2=A0However, their=0Apride comes before a fall when seeking the locati=
on of other similar=0Adevices to attack.=C2=A0=C2=A0Why? Perhaps the less t=
hought of concepts that=0Amakes the device function properly, saves the day=
 by disguise or=0Acutting it off (figuratively speaking).=0A
=0A=0AJust a visionary thought.=0A
=0A=0AC. Henry Adams=0Achenryadams@biemediagroup.com=0Ahttp://biemediagroup=
.com=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AThe information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=0Aor=
iginal recipient. This information is granted for limited=0Adistribution wi=
thin the recipient's place of business for planning=0Apurposes only. Furthe=
r dissemination, whether private or public is=0Aprohibited.=0A
=0A=0A--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:=0A
=0A=0AFrom: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>=0ASubject: Re: [mile] IOCs=
=0ATo: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>=0ADate: Monday, Janua=
ry 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with=0ADNS=0ASEC a pemanent and =
temporal key, with a temporal Id?=0A
=0A=0AYours Faithfully,=0A
=0A=0ADave Misell MSc CISSP=0ASilentCircle=C2=A0=C2=A0dsm=0A07710 380044=0A=
david.misell@bcs.org=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AOn 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE=0A<chatlga2000@yahoo.c=
om>=0Awrote:=0A
=0A=0A=0ASerialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way=
=0Awas=0A=0Aclosely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,=
=0A"consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds=0A=
in some instances."=0A=0A
=0A=0AHowever, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.=C2=A0=C2=A0Howe=
ver, it=0Awould=0A=0Abe nice if the UID was in some way disguised from thos=
e who study=0Athis=0ASecurity Art Form in a negative way.=0A=0A
=0A=0AC. Henry Adams=0Achatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)=0Achenryadams@b=
iemediagroup.com=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AThe information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=0Aor=
iginal=0A=0Arecipient. This information is granted for limited distribution=
=0Awithin=0Athe=0Arecipient's place of business for planning purposes only.=
 Further=0Adissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.=0A=0A
=0A=0ARe: [mile] IOCs=0A
=0A=0ASunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM=0AFrom:=0A"Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Sto=
ecker@rsa.com>=0ATo:=0A"mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>=0AI would like to lo=
ok at this from a slightly different=0Aperspective=C5=A0let's say I get an =
XML document that tells me about an=0Aincident.=C2=A0=C2=A0This document ha=
s source IP and destination IP that is=0Abeing shared.=C2=A0=C2=A0However, =
what I don't know is which IP address is my=0Aindicator and which is just a=
 contextual piece of information.=C2=A0=C2=A0This=0Ameans that my detection=
 product isn't going to know which one to use=0Aeither, because there is no=
thing to tell me which IP is the one,=0Aeven=0Aif the roles are set it stil=
l might not be enough to tell my system=0A=0Awhich=0Aone I should use as th=
e indicator.=0A=0A
=0A=0AIf we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would=0Aall=
ow=0Aus to easily identify indicators from contextual data.=C2=A0=C2=A0I do=
 admit=0Ato=0Abeing biased as I have spent much of my career working on the=
=0Amonitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking=0Ao=
f ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML=0Adocument =
and the other data that may be important as I investigate=0Aactivity that I=
 have detected off of those indicators.=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AI did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more=0Aflex=
ibility with the indicator_uid.=C2=A0=C2=A0One thing that I haven't=0Aconsi=
dered is the UID portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?=C2=A0=C2=A0Ho=
w=0Ais=0Athe UID created?=C2=A0=C2=A0Are there standards for UIDs?=0A
=0A=0ARegards,=0A
=0A=0APaul=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0APaul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.=0ASMC Lead Content Architect=0ARSA, The Secur=
ity Division of EMC=0Acell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com=0A
=0A=0A--- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>=0Aw=
rote:=0A
=0A=0AFrom: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>=0ASubject: RE: [mi=
le] IOCs=0ATo: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>=0ACc: mile@ie=
tf.org=0ADate: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM=0A
=0A=0AGreetings Kathleen,=0A
=0A=0AYour logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the=0A=
many=0A=0Aavenues you review with this approach at once.=C2=A0=C2=A0However=
,=C2=A0=C2=A0could you=0Ashare=0Aa=0Afew advantages and disadvantages to th=
e latter?=0A---------------------------------------------------------------=
-----=0A--------=0A----------------------------------------------=0A=0A"we =
could continue to group items in logical places as is done now=0Ain=0A=0AIO=
DEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via=0ASCI."=
=0A--------------------------------------------------------------------=0A-=
-------=0A---------------------------------------------=0A=0A
=0A=0AYou pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I=0Awa=
nted to=0A=0Aprotect information from parties capable of ascertaining it fr=
om your=0Alogical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what=
=0Aappears=0Ato=0Abe illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AC. Henry Adams=0Achatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)=0Achenryadams@b=
iemediagroup.com=0A
=0A=0AThe information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=0Aor=
iginal=0A=0Arecipient. This information is granted for limited distribution=
=0Awithin=0Athe=0Arecipient's place of business for planning purposes only.=
 Further=0Adissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.=0A=0A
=0A=0A--- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>=
=0A=0Awrote:=0A=0A
=0A=0AFrom: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>=0ASubject: RE: [=
mile] IOCs=0ATo: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf=
.org"=0A=0A<mile@ietf.org>=0A=0ADate: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM=
=0A
=0A=0AHello C. Henry & others,=0A
=0A=0AThanks for taking a look at this.=C2=A0=C2=A0We have a few considerat=
ions in=0Athis=0A=0Aemail thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and ther=
e may be more=0Aonce=0ARFC5070-bis is actively edited).=0A=0A
=0A=0AThe AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for=0Ano=
n-XML=0A=0Aextensions.=C2=A0=C2=A0Where you place the extensions should be =
specific to the=0Alogical grouping of the parent elements so you can unders=
tand more=0Aabout=0Athe=0Aincluded data in most cases.=0A=0A
=0A=0AThe Impact class can be used to provide context information on the=0A=
=0Aincluded data of the report and also can include a confidence rating=0Ao=
n=0Athe=0Areport as a whole.=C2=A0=C2=A0Extensions related to impact would =
be one level=0Ahigher=0A(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the A=
dditionalData=0Aextension=0Apoint.=0A=0A
=0A=0ATake asked about including vulnerability information, I would think=
=0Athat=0A=0Awould fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI d=
raft in=0Athe=0AMethod class.=C2=A0=C2=A0He did ask about non-XML.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0RecordItem or=0AAdditionalData=0Ado=0Aallow for non-XML extension points=
, we could either have the SCI=0Adraft=0Ahandle these as well or have the e=
xtensions that are non-XML come=0Adirectly=0Aoff the AdditionalData or Reco=
rdItem classes according to what makes=0Asense=0Afrom a logical standpoint.=
=0A=0A
=0A=0AAs for my question, it was two-fold.=0A
=0A=0AIndicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the=0Av=
arious=0A=0Aindicators they share.=C2=A0=C2=A0If we are extending to embed =
other schemas=0Athat=0Ainclude such reference or GUID identifiers, do we wa=
nt to add an=0Aattribute=0Ato the various elements in IODEF that could be i=
ndicators?=C2=A0=C2=A0Is this=0Aenough=0Ato make the connections or is some=
thing else else needed?=C2=A0=C2=A0We could=0Aadd=0Asomething like an Indic=
ator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then=0Acorrelate=0Ato=0Athe reference or=
 GUID identifiers.=0A=0A
=0A=0AThen the other question was on how to include indicators that are=0An=
ot=0Ain=0A=0Athe base schema that may be related or have language with "and=
" "or"=0Ato=0Aspecify the relationships.=C2=A0=C2=A0In some cases, you will=
 want to group=0Athese=0Aindictors in one extension point, where they may f=
it logically in=0Amultiple=0Aplaces if the relationships did not need to be=
 shown in the data=0Aformat.=C2=A0=C2=A0If=0Awe have cases like this where =
you need more complex representations,=0Ashould=0Awe use one extension poin=
t via the SCI draft off of the EventData=0Aclass=0AAdditionalData extension=
 point?=C2=A0=C2=A0Opinions are needed here....=0A=0A
=0A=0AA few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared=
=0A=0Aindictors into the base IODEF document.=C2=A0=C2=A0We could have a ca=
tch-all=0Aclass=0Athat does this and has an extension point off of it in Ev=
entData or=0Awe=0Acould=0Acontinue to group items in logical places as is d=
one now in IODEF and=0Athen=0Ahave the extension point for combined indicat=
ors via SCI.=C2=A0=C2=A0I think I=0Alike=0Athe latter approach.=0A=0A
=0A=0AThank you,=0AKathleen=0A________________________________________=0AFr=
om: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.=0AHenry=
=0A=0AAdams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]=0A=0ASent: Saturday, January 26, =
2013 3:05 AM=0ATo: mile@ietf.org=0ACc: C. Henry Adams=0ASubject: Re: [mile]=
 IOCs=0A
=0A=0AGreetings Everyone,=0A
=0A=0ATake mentioned two types of indicators based on the :=0A=0A----------=
----------------------------------------------------------=0A--------=0A---=
-----------------------=0A=0A1) If the indicators are something like an XML=
-based alert/warning=0Aof=0Ainformation leakage, it could be an event that =
are conveyed in the=0ASCI's EventReport class, IMHO.=0A
=0A=0A2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it=
=0Acould=0A=0Abe=0A=0Aconveyed without using SCI draft.=0AFor instance, we =
could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey=0Athe indicators.=0AWe c=
ould for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact=0Aclass,=0A=
=0Aif=0A=0Aneeded.=0A=0A---------------------------------------------------=
-----------------=0A--------=0A--------------------------=0A=0A
=0A=0AIn doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"=0A
=0A=0AWhereas, Kathleen stated,=0A=0A--------------------------------------=
------------------------------=0A--------=0A-------------------------=0A=0A=
For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with=0A=0Arel=
ationships that may be included in a single extension point, so=0Athat's=0A=
why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better=0Aloc=
ations or a specific area within the EventData.=0A=0A
=0A=0APaul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.=
=0A=0A--------------------------------------------------------------------=
=0A--------=0A------------------------=0A=0A
=0A=0AKathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the=0A=
=0AEventData Class.=0A=0A
=0A=0AIs there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass=0A=
=0Acombining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify=0A=
this=0Aissue?=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AC. Henry Adams=0Achatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)=0Achenryadams@b=
iemediagroup.com=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0AThe information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=0Aor=
iginal=0A=0Arecipient. This information is granted for limited distribution=
=0Awithin=0Athe=0Arecipient's place of business for planning purposes only.=
 Further=0Adissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.=0A=0A___=
____________________________________________=0Amile mailing list=0Amile@iet=
f.org=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A_______________________________________________=0Amile mailing list=
=0Amile@ietf.org=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile=0A=0A
=0A=0A_______________________________________________=0Amile mailing list=
=0Amile@ietf.org=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A_______________________________________________=0Amile mailing list=
=0Amile@ietf.org=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile=0A=0A
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=0Amile@ietf.org=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile=0A
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--1458340343-941635131-1360769048=:12028
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><div id=3D"yiv2128506179">=0A=0A =0A=0A<div>=
=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<div>Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subje=
ctive analysis of the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined i=
n a simplified schema as such below:<br><br>&lt;Confidence rating=3D" Alpha=
numeric"&gt;1LL&lt;/&gt; .... etc.<br><br>&lt;Confidence rating=3D" Alphanu=
meric"&gt;2P&lt;/&gt;<br><br>&lt;Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric"&gt;3AC=
&lt;/&gt;<br><br>&lt;Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric"&gt;4U&lt;/&gt;<br>=
<br>&lt;Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric"&gt;5I&lt;/&gt;<br><br><span id=
=3D"yiv2128506179OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div>( i.e.&nbsp;&nbsp;1 =3D Less Li=
kely,&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 =3D Probable,&nbsp;&nbsp;3 =3D A Concern,&nbsp;&nbsp;4 =
=3D&nbsp;&nbsp;Urgent, 5 =3D Imminent )<br><br>Here's my point, perhaps a s=
et of numeric related or associated definitions can lower the propagation o=
f error regarding the analysis.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br></div></span><br>Thanks,<br=
>C. Henry Adams<br><br><br>I agree that what we really need is both. &nbsp;=
In most situations a =0Alow, medium and high may be acceptable but there ar=
e times when we will =0Awant to show that confidence in a situation is incr=
easing or decreasing.=0A &nbsp;If we are only looking at a three levels,=0A=
 we cannot express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on =0At=
he data being exchanged about the event.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>=
Kathleen included the following in a previous message.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A=
</div>=0A<div>=0A<div style=3D"font-family:Consolas;font-size:medium;">&lt;=
Confidence rating=3D"low"/&gt;</div>=0A<div style=3D"font-family:Consolas;f=
ont-size:medium;"><br>=0A</div>=0A<div style=3D"font-family:Consolas;font-s=
ize:medium;">Vs:</div>=0A<div style=3D"font-family:Consolas;font-size:mediu=
m;"><br>=0A</div>=0A<div style=3D"font-family:Consolas;font-size:medium;">&=
lt;Confidence rating=3D"numeric"&gt;85&lt;/&gt;</div>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=
=0A</div>=0A<div>I really think we need to include both capabilities as Joh=
n alluded=0A to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something t=
hat is =0Aindeed subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accura=
te =0Aconfidence index that the sender is trying to convey.</div>=0A<div><b=
r>=0A</div>=0A<div><span class=3D"yiv2128506179Apple-style-span" style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(96, 106, 113);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2px;border-spacing:1px;"><strong>Kent Landfield</strong><br>=0A<br>=0A<stro=
ng>McAfee | An Intel Company</strong><br>=0ADirect: +1.972.963.7096&nbsp;<b=
r>=0AMobile: +1.817.637.8026<br>=0A<strong>Web:&nbsp;</strong><a rel=3D"nof=
ollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.mcafee.com/" style=3D"color:rgb=
(96, 106, 113);">www.mcafee.com</a></span></div>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A<div><=
br>=0A</div>=0A<span id=3D"yiv2128506179OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">=0A<div style=
=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:black;BORDER-B=
OTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-LEFT:0=
in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;=
PADDING-TOP:3pt;">=0A<span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From: </span>&lt;Ban=
ghart&gt;, John Banghart &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=
http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djohn.banghart@nist.gov">john=
.banghart@nist.gov</a>&gt;<br>=0A<span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Date: </=
span>Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM<br>=0A<span style=3D"font-weight:=
bold;">To: </span>"Stoecker, Paul" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank=
" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.=
com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;, Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollo=
w" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;, Brian Tram=
mell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch">trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch=
</a>&gt;<br>=0A<span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Cc: </span>"C. Henry Adams=
 &amp; BIE" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc5=
34.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.=
com</a>&gt;, MILE IETF &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ht=
tp://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;<br>=0A<span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Subject: </span>Re: [mile] I=
OCs<br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_=
OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDIN=
G:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>=0A<div>=0A<div>Paul,</div>=0A<div><br>=
=0A</div>=0A<div>I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity ca=
n be reduced</div>=0A<div>within communities that interact frequently.&nbsp=
;&nbsp;Prioritization of indicators</div>=0A<div>and response between tight=
ly connected sharing partners might require a</div>=0A<div>more specific le=
vel of detail, particularly during a crisis situation.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A=
</div>=0A<div>From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for =
additional</div>=0A<div>granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low=
" as preferred for</div>=0A<div>broad interoperability.</div>=0A<div><br>=
=0A</div>=0A<div>-John</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>On 2/13/13 8:04 AM=
, "Stoecker, Paul" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http:/=
/us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul.Stoeck=
er@rsa.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yi=
v2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df=
 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>I may have been too succi=
nct in my response ;-)</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Confidence is a su=
bjective thing, so I think we should use subjective</div>=0A<div>terms:&nbs=
p;&nbsp;Low, Medium, High.&nbsp;&nbsp;Having a numeric scale with a map tha=
t</div>=0A<div>essentially would say something like:</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</=
div>=0A<div>1-33 =3D Low</div>=0A<div>34-67=3D Medium</div>=0A<div>68-100=
=3DHigh</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Is just a more complicated way of=
 saying that something is Low, Medium,</div>=0A<div>High...do we really thi=
ng that how High something is makes that much of a</div>=0A<div>difference?=
</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>This is like when you get your Performan=
ce review where it is Does Not</div>=0A<div>Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your =
boss tells you that you are a High</div>=0A<div>Meets...your</div>=0A<div>b=
onus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other Meets got</di=
v>=0A<div>;-)</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Anyway, I digress but tryin=
g to prove a point that I would argue that</div>=0A<div>confidence in this =
case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why use</div>=0A<div>numeri=
c values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</d=
iv>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.</div>=0A<div>SMC Le=
ad Content Architect</div>=0A<div>RSA, The Security Division of EMC</div>=
=0A<div>cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com">p=
aul.stoecker@rsa.com</a></div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A=
<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A=
</div>=0A<div>On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofoll=
ow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>=0A<di=
v>wrote:</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OU=
TLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:=
0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>Hello,</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>B=
oth approaches will validate in the current schema.&nbsp;&nbsp;The represen=
tation</div>=0A<div>looks a little different for each, here is an example:<=
/div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>&lt;Confidence rating=3D"low"/&gt;</div>=
=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Vs:</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>&lt;Conf=
idence rating=3D"numeric"&gt;85&lt;/&gt;</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>=
Searching capability is a great point, agreed.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like to hear =
from</div>=0A<div>more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that =
others find</div>=0A<div>extremely useful (need to gauge that).&nbsp;&nbsp;=
Other options is that the</div>=0A<div>guidance can also discourage the use=
 of the numeric in addition to</div>=0A<div>specifying how to select ranges=
.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Any other opinions?</div>=0A<div><br>=
=0A</div>=0A<div>Thanks,</div>=0A<div>Kathleen</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=
=0A<div>-----Original Message-----</div>=0A<div>From: Stoecker, Paul</div>=
=0A<div>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM</div>=0A<div>To: Brian T=
rammell</div>=0A<div>Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE; MILE=
 IETF</div>=0A<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<d=
iv>Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:&nbsp;&nbsp;High, =
Medium, and</div>=0A<div>Low?&nbsp;&nbsp;Any other value means that the Doc=
ument will mot validate against</div>=0A<div>the schema.</div>=0A<div><br>=
=0A</div>=0A<div>Sent from my iPhone</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>On F=
eb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D=
"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@ti=
k.ee.ethz.ch">trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;</div>=0A<div>wrote:</div>=0A<=
div><br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_=
BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5;">=0A<div>Hi, Kathleen, all,</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>I think=
 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build</div>=0A<div=
>interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.</div>=
=0A<div>(Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would me=
an</div>=0A<div>"we compared this incident report to N past similar inciden=
t reports</div>=0A<div>according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the =
past reports had</div>=0A<div>assessed impacts within E% of the actual, mea=
sured final impact -- I</div>=0A<div>think for most applications this is va=
stly more difficult and rigorous</div>=0A<div>than it needs to be.)</div>=
=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on =
some actual, repeatably</div>=0A<div>measurable aspect of the Assessment re=
port -- which I suspect in</div>=0A<div>many/most/all cases it's not -- the=
n it just represents a guess, however</div>=0A<div>educated.&nbsp;&nbsp;Eac=
h team will probably naturally tune its own scales such</div>=0A<div>that e=
ach value generally means the same thing in each report. Across</div>=0A<di=
v>teams, I don't know.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>On the other hand,=
 Assessments are by their very nature educated</div>=0A<div>guesses, anyway=
, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating a</div>=0A<div>respo=
nse based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,</div>=0A<di=
v>though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.</di=
v>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D =
0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I</div>=0A<div>agree, we should put that in the gui=
dance document (along with a note</div>=0A<div>that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 6=
6 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high,</div>=0A<div>unless we want to d=
o it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the</div>=0A<div>users of thi=
s field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning "yes" and 0</div>=0A<div>mea=
ning "any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is purely</div>=
=0A<div>coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent" in 5070-bi=
s.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Best regards,</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</di=
v>=0A<div>Brian (as contributor)</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A<=
/div>=0A<div>On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"</div>=0A<div=
>&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv212850617=
9MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;P=
ADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC507=
0 as a starting point.&nbsp;&nbsp;We can</div>=0A<div>change it if it needs=
 to be changed.&nbsp;&nbsp;The value is for a confidence</div>=0A<div>ratin=
g on the indicators shared.&nbsp;&nbsp;The definitions may be helpful for</=
div>=0A<div>anyone who wants to work on this discussion.&nbsp;&nbsp;IODEF h=
as various markers</div>=0A<div>that can be used in a complimentary way wit=
hout conflating the markers</div>=0A<div>meaning.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div=
>=0A<div>I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more</di=
v>=0A<div>helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have lear=
ned</div>=0A<div>from using the current structure (what works/does not work=
).&nbsp;&nbsp;The</div>=0A<div>scales I have seen are 0-100.&nbsp;&nbsp;The=
re is of course a subjective element</div>=0A<div>to assigning a numerical =
value to the confidence and it may vary from</div>=0A<div>entity to entity.=
&nbsp;&nbsp;With this type of rating you may need to consider</div>=0A<div>=
who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to</div>=
=0A<div>your own rating.&nbsp;&nbsp;It would be good to hear more thoughts =
on this.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Thanks,</div>=0A<div>Kathleen</d=
iv>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [<a rel=3D"n=
ofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]</div>=0A<di=
v>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM</div>=0A<div>To: MILE IETF</div>=
=0A<div>Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul</div>=
=0A<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A<=
/div>=0A<div>Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a v=
ital</div>=0A<div>point.&nbsp;&nbsp;Different Confidence levels will cause =
confusion.&nbsp;&nbsp;It appears</div>=0A<div>that there maybe a need for s=
ome type of simplified standardization to</div>=0A<div>be established betwe=
en all Sharing Groups in this regard.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Per=
haps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of</div>=
=0A<div>urgency.</div>=0A<div>( i.e.&nbsp;&nbsp;1 =3D Less Likely,&nbsp;&nb=
sp; 2 =3D Probable,&nbsp;&nbsp;3 =3D A Concern,&nbsp;&nbsp;4 =3D&nbsp;&nbsp=
;Urgent,</div>=0A<div>5 =3D Imminent )</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Th=
anks,</div>=0A<div>C. Henry Adams</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A=
</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>I see some confusion coming down the pik=
e if we start using Confidence</div>=0A<div>the</div>=0A<div>way it is supp=
orted. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me</div>=0A<div>an IoC<=
/div>=0A<div>with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am us=
ing a</div>=0A<div>scale of</div>=0A<div>1 to 4 and someone else is on a sc=
ale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability</div>=0A<div>to</div>=0A<div>describe so=
mething with a consistent language. It really gets ugly</div>=0A<div>when w=
e</div>=0A<div>store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values th=
at are</div>=0A<div>numeric</div>=0A<div>as well as text.&nbsp;&nbsp;Makes =
searching / sorting very problematic.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>At =
this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly</div>=0A<div=
>recommend</div>=0A<div>that we revisit this at some point.</div>=0A<div><b=
r>=0A</div>=0A<div>Thanks,</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>--Chris</div>=
=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>-----Original Message-----</div>=0A<div>From: =
Moriarty, Kathleen</div>=0A<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM</d=
iv>=0A<div>To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul=
;</div>=0A<div>'MILE</div>=0A<div>IETF'</div>=0A<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IO=
Cs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Hi Chris &amp; Take,</div>=0A<div><br>=
=0A</div>=0A<div>I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.&nbsp;&nbsp;Righ=
t now, the schema</div>=0A<div>allows for</div>=0A<div>you to either use a =
numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and</div>=0A<div>high.</div>=
=0A<div>Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data=
.</div>=0A<div>If</div>=0A<div>people were to use the numerical values, I a=
gree it would be helpful</div>=0A<div>to have</div>=0A<div>guidance.&nbsp;&=
nbsp;This could go in the IODE guidance document.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div=
>=0A<div>I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approac=
hes,</div>=0A<div>so</div>=0A<div>we'll need to keep the option for backwar=
ds compatibility and it is</div>=0A<div>nice to</div>=0A<div>keep in flexib=
le options where we can.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Thank you,</div>=
=0A<div>Kathleen</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>-----Original Message---=
--</div>=0A<div>From: Harrington, Christopher</div>=0A<div>Sent: Tuesday, F=
ebruary 12, 2013 9:22 AM</div>=0A<div>To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Ka=
thleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE</div>=0A<div>IETF'</div>=0A<div>Subject: RE: =
[mile] IOCs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>The number of indicators woul=
dn't necessarily drive the use of</div>=0A<div>indicator_set_id. The purpos=
e is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP</div>=0A<div>addresses that were =
used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have</div>=0A<div>separate ind=
icator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A=
<div>My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break=
</div>=0A<div>it</div>=0A<div>down to more levels than that we would need t=
o provide guidance on</div>=0A<div>scoring,</div>=0A<div>rating, etc. I thi=
nk most people should be able to understand</div>=0A<div>low/med/high</div>=
=0A<div>without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the</d=
iv>=0A<div>level.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Low - I am not sure</di=
v>=0A<div>Medium - I am reasonably sure</div>=0A<div>High - I am very sure<=
/div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Thanks,</div>=0A<div=
><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>--Chris</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>-----Origin=
al Message-----</div>=0A<div>From: Takeshi Takahashi [<a rel=3D"nofollow" t=
arget=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtak=
eshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp">mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>]</div>=
=0A<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM</div>=0A<div>To: Harringto=
n, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE</div>=0A<div>IETF=
'</div>=0A<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>R=
egarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to</div>=
=0A<div>deal</div>=0A<div>with large sets of indicators.</div>=0A<div>Since=
 indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be</div>=0A<div>=
omitted</div>=0A<div>if we need to deal with only small number of indicator=
s.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Regarding the use case, I like the ide=
a of using the confidence</div>=0A<div>attribute</div>=0A<div>for the reaso=
n Chris kindly described.</div>=0A<div>I would like to hear a bit more on t=
his: is it going to be numerical?</div>=0A<div>For</div>=0A<div>instance, 1=
 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",</div>=0A<div>etc?=
</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Thank you.</div>=0A<div>Take</div>=0A<di=
v><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_O=
UTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING=
:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>-----Original Message-----</div>=0A<div>F=
rom: Harrington, Christopher [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D=
"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.=
com">mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>]</div>=0A<div>Sent: Friday, =
February 08, 2013 4:11 AM</div>=0A<div>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Taka=
hashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE</div>=0A<div>IETF'</div>=0A<div>Subject: RE: [=
mile] IOCs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>With respect to tying things b=
ack to threat actors, from what I have</div>=0A<div>seen and use this is a =
generally accepted grouping:</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Indicator --=
&gt; Indictor Set --&gt; Campaign --&gt; Threat Actor</div>=0A<div><br>=0A<=
/div>=0A<div>Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attr=
ibute</div>=0A<div>would be beneficial as making those associations is not =
a perfect</div>=0A<div>science by any means.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<=
div>Thanks,</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>--Chris</div>=0A<div><br>=0A<=
/div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>-----Original Message-----</div>=0A<div>F=
rom: Moriarty, Kathleen</div>=0A<div>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00=
 PM</div>=0A<div>To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, =
Paul; 'MILE</div>=0A<div>IETF'</div>=0A<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>=
=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Hi Take &amp; others,</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</di=
v>=0A<div>Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris an=
d a</div>=0A<div>few others on their use cases and would like more opinions=
.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'll</div>=0A<div>provide an option below from what we have di=
scussed from a CIRC view</div>=0A<div>point.&nbsp;&nbsp;We are also wonderi=
ng how to also provide logic in IODEF that</div>=0A<div>could cross over in=
to SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the</div>=0A<div>solutions may=
 all tie together with this discussion - or there may be</div>=0A<div>bette=
r/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).</div>=0A<div><br>=
=0A</div>=0A<div>-----Original Message-----</div>=0A<div>From: Takeshi Taka=
hashi [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.y=
ahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp">mailto:takeshi_takah=
ashi@nict.go.jp</a>]</div>=0A<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM=
</div>=0A<div>To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathle=
en;</div>=0A<div>'MILE</div>=0A<div>IETF'</div>=0A<div>Subject: RE: [mile] =
IOCs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOO=
K_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 =
0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>I like this discussion.</div>=0A<div>I agree, =
it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside</div>=0A<div>the=
 IOC-related classes.</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>KMM=
: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that</div>=0A<d=
iv>should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same</di=
v>=0A<div>class that is a related issue, but a separate set.&nbsp;&nbsp;We =
could as you</div>=0A<div>say, list the indicator IDs connected through the=
 reference class.</div>=0A<div>The set IDs might give us other ways to grou=
p the values when we get</div>=0A<div>into logic and relationships between =
sets or indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;This could</div>=0A<div>also be a way to con=
nect indicators or sets across XML documents that</div>=0A<div>could have b=
een shared previously.&nbsp;&nbsp;If there are a large number of</div>=0A<d=
iv>indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I</di=
v>=0A<div>agree it doesn't make as much sense.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=
=0A<div>What do others think?</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote id=
=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#=
b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv212=
8506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 s=
olid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>Then for indicators not inclu=
ded in the base schema that may not</div>=0A<div>fit into a category in the=
 SCI draft, do we create a place for</div>=0A<div>these off of SCI or right=
 off of the IODE schema in EventData?</div>=0A<div>(more details</div>=0A</=
blockquote>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>on</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv21285061=
79MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;=
PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTL=
OOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 =
0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>this in my first message).</div>=0A</blockqu=
ote>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>If we could see any indicator of compromis=
e as computer event</div>=0A<div>record, we could use SCI:EventReport class=
 as the place for the</div>=0A<div>XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywher=
e else.</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>KMM: That sounds =
like a good idea to me.&nbsp;&nbsp;This should go into</div>=0A<div>guidanc=
e</div>=0A<div>in the SCI draft.&nbsp;&nbsp;Does anyone else want to weigh =
in?</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK=
_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0=
 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>For the non-XML IOCs, we c=
ould use RecordData class, as suggested.</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>KMM: =
Sounds good, thanks!</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128=
506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 so=
lid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>I agree to have indicator_uid,=
 but I am not sure about the needs of</div>=0A<div>the indicator_set_id.</d=
iv>=0A<div>I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_u=
ids</div>=0A<div>and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not hav=
e any</div>=0A<div>other way to express these groupings.</div>=0A<div>For i=
nstance,&nbsp;&nbsp;a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.</d=
iv>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>In</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OU=
TLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:=
0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>this case, they could be, in a sense, grou=
ped. Isn't it enough?</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>KMM=
: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or</div>=0A<d=
iv>subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?&nbsp;&nbsp;Wou=
ld this</div>=0A<div>happen?&nbsp;&nbsp;Would it be easier to express relat=
ionships with sets of</div>=0A<div>indicators in addition to individual ind=
icators?&nbsp;&nbsp;By using this, it</div>=0A<div>could give us a unique w=
ay to also provide the logic and</div>=0A<div>relationships</div>=0A<div>in=
 a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it</div>=0A<di=
v>into</div>=0A<div>the current</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>structure.</di=
v>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" sty=
le=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>=
If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some</div>=
=0A<div>options, that would be appreciated!</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<d=
iv>Thank you,</div>=0A<div>Kathleen</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquot=
e id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LE=
FT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>I would appreci=
ate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though</div>=0A</blockquote>=
=0A<div>I</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BL=
OCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0=
 5;">=0A<div>think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have</di=
v>=0A<div>mis-understood some points.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>By =
the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI</div>=0A</bl=
ockquote>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>classes'</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128=
506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 so=
lid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_=
OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDIN=
G:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>attributes so that they can be correlate=
d with another information</div>=0A<div>as</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>wel=
l.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOT=
E" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=
=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Thanks</div>=0A<div>Take</div>=0A</blockquote>=
=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>From=
: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.=
com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a re=
l=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/=
compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Be=
half</div>=0A<div>Of Harrington, Christopher</div>=0A<div>Sent: Tuesday, Fe=
bruary 05, 2013 4:25 AM</div>=0A<div>To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen=
; MILE IETF</div>=0A<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div=
>=0A<div>I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a</=
div>=0A<div>logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicat=
ors.</div>=0A<div>If</div>=0A<div>I give you</div>=0A<div>2</div>=0A<div>re=
gistry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of</div>=0A=
<div>compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would</di=
v>=0A<div>have the same group ID since they are related.</div>=0A<div><br>=
=0A</div>=0A<div>Thanks,</div>=0A<div>--Chris</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A=
<div>From: Stoecker, Paul</div>=0A<div>Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26=
 PM</div>=0A<div>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF=
</div>=0A<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Wh=
at if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?</div>=0A<di=
v>This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the</div>=
=0A<div>same group ID.</div>=0A<div>Would this resolve the issue?</div>=0A<=
div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>It is either that or going back to adding a Detect=
ion (or Indicators)</div>=0A<div>class that will should be used to take all=
 of the indicators put them</div>=0A<div>into one place and have the abilit=
y to group the ones that go</div>=0A<div>together.&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't mean =
a place to put indicators that are missing</div>=0A<div>from IODEF.I mean a=
 place in the IODEF document where you put the</div>=0A<div>indicators that=
 are used for detection and prevention of the shared</div>=0A<div>Incident.=
&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a</div>=
=0A<div>good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group th=
em</div>=0A<div>as Chris has suggested without basically recreating somethi=
ng</div>=0A<div>complicated like STIX.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Pa=
ul</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Paul W. Stoecker,=
 Ph.D.</div>=0A<div>SMC Lead Content Architect</div>=0A<div>RSA, The Securi=
ty Division of EMC</div>=0A<div>cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a rel=3D"nofollow"=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dp=
aul.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a></div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=
=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>From: &lt;Moriarty&gt;, Kathleen &lt;<a rel=3D=
"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/comp=
ose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>=
=0A<div>Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM</div>=0A<div>To: "Harrington=
, Christopher" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.=
mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.com">Christ=
opher.Harrington@emc.com</a>&gt;, MILE</div>=0A<div>IETF &lt;<a rel=3D"nofo=
llow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>=0A<div>Subject: Re: [mile] I=
OCs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Hi Chris,</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=
=0A<div>I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.=
</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>The list has already said they would lik=
e to see indicators added to</div>=0A<div>the definitions in RFC5070-bis, t=
o be more explicit about including</div>=0A<div>indicators and sets of indi=
cators in IODE documents as opposed to</div>=0A<div>'parts of an incident o=
r the useful information on an incident for</div>=0A<div>sharing purposes.&=
nbsp;&nbsp;It was written before we used terms like</div>=0A<div>indicators=
.&nbsp;&nbsp;With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes</div>=
=0A<div>back in July, both for guidance and for</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<di=
v>format</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLO=
CKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 =
5;">=0A<div>updates.&nbsp;&nbsp;It may help to have the first draft try to =
address at least</div>=0A<div>some of these issues so people can understand=
 the problems and at</div>=0A<div>least a proposed solution.</div>=0A<div><=
br>=0A</div>=0A<div>As you point out, we need to be able to show relationsh=
ips between</div>=0A<div>sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets o=
f indicators that</div>=0A<div>could have a relationship to each other with=
in a document.&nbsp;&nbsp;In the</div>=0A<div>July presentation, one of the=
 questions was to see if we should add</div>=0A<div>new category attribute =
values for the System class that would connect</div>=0A<div>the list of inc=
luded indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think we should still keep the</div>=0A<div>=
concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list</div>=
=0A<div>multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.&nbsp;&nbsp;R=
osella had</div>=0A<div>suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5=
901, this would</div>=0A<div>help solve the issue as NodeRole values would =
compliment an</div>=0A<div>AttackType</div>=0A<div>(FraudType values could =
be included in AttackType or some broader</div>=0A<div>term).&nbsp;&nbsp;It=
 may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute</div>=0A<div>values</=
div>=0A<div>like "C2-server", "sinkhole",&nbsp;&nbsp;"MalwareDistribution" =
for added</div>=0A<div>context</div>=0A<div>so you know what to do with the=
 received set of indicators.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>I am proposi=
ng that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of</div>=0A</blockquote>=
=0A<div>indicators,</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTR=
IBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MA=
RGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a =
method to connect</div>=0A<div>indicators and indicator sets within an IODE=
F using an attribute of</div>=0A<div>indicator_uid (or some other name) wit=
h a string value to make the</div>=0A<div>connection points, and add a few =
indicators that are commonly shared</div>=0A<div>into the base IODEF.</div>=
=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Back in July, we talked about adding Registry =
Key/Value pairs and</div>=0A<div>hashes to the main IODEF document (trying =
to see if this will help</div>=0A<div>Chris below).&nbsp;&nbsp;What if we a=
dded the Registry Key/Value pairs as a</div>=0A<div>class off of RecordData=
, using a similar structure to what is in</div>=0A<div>RFC5901, and also ad=
ded the ability to include hashes in RecordData?</div>=0A<div>I think if we=
 then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we</div>=0A<div>could =
connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure</div>=0A<div>f=
or</div>=0A<div>other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of =
the System</div>=0A<div>class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set toget=
her.&nbsp;&nbsp;Then at the</div>=0A<div>more specific level for the hash, =
registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an</div>=0A<div>indicator_uid if we needed=
 them marked at this level as well?&nbsp;&nbsp;Maybe</div>=0A<div>we want i=
ndicator_set at the higher level?&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like some opinions on</div=
>=0A<div>this approach.&nbsp;&nbsp;+1 if you agree, suggestions if you have=
 other ideas</div>=0A<div>that may work better.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=
=0A<div>We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent</d=
iv>=0A<div>forward sharing when not permitted.&nbsp;&nbsp;We may want to us=
e these values</div>=0A<div>or something else.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=
=0A<div>Thank you!</div>=0A<div>Kathleen</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>=
From: Harrington, Christopher</div>=0A<div>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 =
12:01 PM</div>=0A<div>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF</div>=0A<div>Subjec=
t: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>I think we have a bigg=
er relationship issue to address. Let use the</div>=0A<div>Watchlist Use Ca=
se. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In</div>=0A<div>that mes=
sage we could have groupings of indicators that we need to</div>=0A<div>sho=
w are</div>=0A<div>related:</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Two or more i=
ndicators of different type that relate to the same</div>=0A<div>threat:</d=
iv>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The file hash of a maliciou=
s file and the URL of the C2 that</div>=0A<div>the file uses. Either or bot=
h may be present to indicate a</div>=0A<div>compromise.</div>=0A<div><br>=
=0A</div>=0A<div>Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the=
 same</div>=0A<div>threat:</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; 2 different registry values for the same registry key. If</div>=0A<div>ei=
ther value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will</div>=0A<d=
iv>not</div>=0A<div>be</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>present.</div>=0A<block=
quote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDE=
R-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</di=
v>=0A<div>The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario<=
/div>=0A<div>where</div>=0A<div>both groupings above are part of the same t=
hreat. I need to show that</div>=0A<div>logical groupings of Indicators are=
 related as well. We can't send</div>=0A<div>multiple IODEF messages for th=
is from what I remember reading.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>The last=
 one I can think of would be when you have 2 different</div>=0A<div>indicat=
ors that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to</div>=0A<div>se=
nd both the</div>=0A<div>MD5</div>=0A<div>and SHA1 hash of a malicious file=
. The indicator is the file but the</div>=0A<div>IOCs are the 2 hash values=
. How do we show they are related? If we</div>=0A<div>use</div>=0A<div>a un=
ique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher</div>=0A<d=
iv>level</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>grouping.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"y=
iv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4d=
f 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Tho=
ughts?</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Thanks,</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=
=0A<div>--Chris</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Christopher Harrington</d=
iv>=0A<div>Consulting Security Engineer</div>=0A<div>GSO - Critical Inciden=
t Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives</div>=0A<div>174 Middlesex =
Turnpike</div>=0A<div>Bedford, MA 01730</div>=0A<div>781-515-5862 (work)</d=
iv>=0A<div>603-583-1585 (cell)</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>From: <a r=
el=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc=
/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a rel=3D"n=
ofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf</=
div>=0A<div>Of Moriarty, Kathleen</div>=0A<div>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2=
013 11:28 AM</div>=0A<div>To: MILE IETF</div>=0A<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IO=
Cs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>All -</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<di=
v>I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from</div=
>=0A<div>the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my messag=
e</div>=0A<div>and additionally in Paul's message.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</di=
v>=0A<div>Interesting point, C. Henry.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our objective here is to =
have machine</div>=0A<div>automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rat=
her than obfuscation</div>=0A<div>to achieve the necessary level of confide=
ntiality.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Paul mentioned the need to dist=
inguish indicators of compromise from</div>=0A<div>context information that=
 may also include IP address or other data</div>=0A<div>that could be indic=
ators.&nbsp;&nbsp;The question I raised was on how to</div>=0A<div>connect<=
/div>=0A<div>sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ab=
ility</div>=0A<div>to</div>=0A<div>have watchlists that could have several =
sets of indicators included,</div>=0A<div>as well as to connect indicators =
that may be included in embedded</div>=0A<div>schemas.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A=
</div>=0A<div>If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let=
's say</div>=0A<div>'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?&nbsp;&nb=
sp;Do we use this to</div>=0A<div>mark</div>=0A<div>who sent the indicator =
as well so that we can prevent forward sharing</div>=0A<div>when it is not =
permitted or handle that separately?</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Then=
 for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit</div>=0A<d=
iv>into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off</di=
v>=0A<div>of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more detail=
s on</div>=0A<div>this in my first message).</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<=
div>Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical</di=
v>=0A<div>solution to have this machine automatable.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</=
div>=0A<div>Thank you,</div>=0A<div>Kathleen</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<=
div>From: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mai=
l.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a=
> [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo=
.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a=
>] On Behalf</div>=0A<div>Of C.</div>=0A<div>Henry Adams &amp; BIE</div>=0A=
<div>Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM</div>=0A<div>To: MILE IETF</di=
v>=0A<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Tempor=
al Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp;&nbsp;I remember when I first ran</d=
iv>=0A<div>across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me =
a</div>=0A<div>peculiar question.&nbsp;&nbsp;He said, " How do you stop som=
eone from tracking</div>=0A<div>the IP Address to your computer?"</div>=0A<=
div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>I replied, "I don't know, how?"</div>=0A<div><br>=
=0A</div>=0A<div>Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off&nbsp;&nbsp;and t=
he modem that it is</div>=0A<div>connected- which is constantly on!"&nbsp;&=
nbsp; LOL</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Here's my point (Hypothetical S=
ituation) :&nbsp;&nbsp;There is a 1st Responder</div>=0A<div>searching a Ne=
ighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster</div>=0A<div>or</div>=
=0A<div>let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.&nbsp;&nbsp;He /or She ne=
eds to</div>=0A<div>communication back to other Officials that he /or someh=
ow is in</div>=0A<div>Danger.&nbsp;&nbsp;The device used to communicate has=
 been captured by the</div>=0A<div>great</div>=0A<div>minds of the enemy.&n=
bsp;&nbsp;It's only a matter of time before they utilize</div>=0A<div>rever=
se engineering to figure out how it functions.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, their</d=
iv>=0A<div>pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other sim=
ilar</div>=0A<div>devices to attack.&nbsp;&nbsp;Why? Perhaps the less thoug=
ht of concepts that</div>=0A<div>makes the device function properly, saves =
the day by disguise or</div>=0A<div>cutting it off (figuratively speaking).=
</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Just a visionary thought.</div>=0A<div><=
br>=0A</div>=0A<div>C. Henry Adams</div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryad=
ams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a></div>=0A<div><a re=
l=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://biemediagroup.com">http://b=
iemediagroup.com</a></div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div=
>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the</div>=0A<=
div>original recipient. This information is granted for limited</div>=0A<di=
v>distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning</div>=
=0A<div>purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is<=
/div>=0A<div>prohibited.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>--- On Mon, 1/28=
/13, Dave Misell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://u=
s.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@b=
cs.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>From: Dave Misell &=
lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo=
.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;</di=
v>=0A<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>=0A<div>To: "C. Henry Adams &amp; B=
IE" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.=
yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&=
gt;</div>=0A<div>Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirro=
red with</div>=0A<div>DNS</div>=0A<div>SEC a pemanent and temporal key, wit=
h a temporal Id?</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Yours Faithfully,</div>=
=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Dave Misell MSc CISSP</div>=0A<div>SilentCircl=
e&nbsp;&nbsp;dsm</div>=0A<div>07710 380044</div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow"=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dd=
avid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a></div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A=
<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams &amp; BI=
E</div>=0A<div>&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.=
mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yah=
oo.com</a>&gt;</div>=0A<div>wrote:</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote=
 id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEF=
T:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>Serialization of=
 a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way</div>=0A<div>was</div>=
=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>closely related to what I attempted to express when=
 I stated,</div>=0A<div>"consider to a degree what appears to be illogical =
in brilliant minds</div>=0A<div>in some instances."</div>=0A<blockquote id=
=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#=
b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<di=
v>However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.&nbsp;&nbsp;However,=
 it</div>=0A<div>would</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>be nice if the UID was =
in some way disguised from those who study</div>=0A<div>this</div>=0A<div>S=
ecurity Art Form in a negative way.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179=
MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PA=
DDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>C. Henry Adams<=
/div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.=
mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com=
</a> (Direct Email)=0A<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://=
us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chen=
ryadams@biemediagroup.com</a></div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</di=
v>=0A<div>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the<=
/div>=0A<div>original</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>recipient. This informat=
ion is granted for limited distribution</div>=0A<div>within</div>=0A<div>th=
e</div>=0A<div>recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Fu=
rther</div>=0A<div>dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.<=
/div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" =
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<d=
iv><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Re: [mile] IOCs</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>S=
unday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM</div>=0A<div>From:</div>=0A<div>"Stoecker, =
Paul" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mai=
l.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a=
>&gt;</div>=0A<div>To:</div>=0A<div>"<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@=
ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.m=
c534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;</d=
iv>=0A<div>I would like to look at this from a slightly different</div>=0A<=
div>perspective=C5=A0let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an=
</div>=0A<div>incident.&nbsp;&nbsp;This document has source IP and destinat=
ion IP that is</div>=0A<div>being shared.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, what I don't =
know is which IP address is my</div>=0A<div>indicator and which is just a c=
ontextual piece of information.&nbsp;&nbsp;This</div>=0A<div>means that my =
detection product isn't going to know which one to use</div>=0A<div>either,=
 because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one,</div>=0A<div>even=
</div>=0A<div>if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my =
system</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>which</div>=0A<div>one I should use as =
the indicator.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTI=
ON_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:=
0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>If we had something like indicator_i=
d as an attribute, it would</div>=0A<div>allow</div>=0A<div>us to easily id=
entify indicators from contextual data.&nbsp;&nbsp;I do admit</div>=0A<div>=
to</div>=0A<div>being biased as I have spent much of my career working on t=
he</div>=0A<div>monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just=
 thinking</div>=0A<div>of ways to make it very clear what the indicators ar=
e in the XML</div>=0A<div>document and the other data that may be important=
 as I investigate</div>=0A<div>activity that I have detected off of those i=
ndicators.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>I did sug=
gest the detection class, but I think we may get more</div>=0A<div>flexibil=
ity with the indicator_uid.&nbsp;&nbsp;One thing that I haven't</div>=0A<di=
v>considered is the UID portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?&nbsp;&=
nbsp;How</div>=0A<div>is</div>=0A<div>the UID created?&nbsp;&nbsp;Are there=
 standards for UIDs?</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Regards,</div>=0A<di=
v><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Paul</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=
=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.</div>=0A<div>SMC Lead =
Content Architect</div>=0A<div>RSA, The Security Division of EMC</div>=0A<d=
iv>cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ht=
tp://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.st=
oecker@rsa.com</a></div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>--- On Sat, 1/26/13, C=
. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"h=
ttp://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlg=
a2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</div>=0A<div>wrote:</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<d=
iv>From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"=
 href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.c=
om">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</div>=0A<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</di=
v>=0A<div>To: "KathleenMoriarty" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@em=
c.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>=0A<div>Cc: <a rel=3D"nofollo=
w" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>=0A<div>Date: Saturday, January 26=
, 2013, 6:17 PM</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Greetings Kathleen,</div>=
=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Your logic stimulates my visionary brain becau=
se I'm amazed at the</div>=0A<div>many</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>avenues=
 you review with this approach at once.&nbsp;&nbsp;However,&nbsp;&nbsp;coul=
d you</div>=0A<div>share</div>=0A<div>a</div>=0A<div>few advantages and dis=
advantages to the latter?</div>=0A<div>------------------------------------=
--------------------------------</div>=0A<div>--------</div>=0A<div>-------=
---------------------------------------</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv212850=
6179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 soli=
d;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>"we could continue to group item=
s in logical places as is done now</div>=0A<div>in</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A=
<div>IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via</d=
iv>=0A<div>SCI."</div>=0A<div>---------------------------------------------=
-----------------------</div>=0A<div>--------</div>=0A<div>----------------=
-----------------------------</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OU=
TLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:=
0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>You pointed out what =
you consider to be logical places, but if I</div>=0A<div>wanted to</div>=0A=
</blockquote>=0A<div>protect information from parties capable of ascertaini=
ng it from your</div>=0A<div>logical places, perhaps we should also conside=
r to a degree what</div>=0A<div>appears</div>=0A<div>to</div>=0A<div>be ill=
ogical in brilliant minds in some instances.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2=
128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5=
 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=
=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>C. Henry Adams</div>=0A<div><a rel=3D=
"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/comp=
ose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)</d=
iv>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@bie=
mediagroup.com</a></div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>The information contai=
ned herein is for the exclusive use of the</div>=0A<div>original</div>=0A</=
blockquote>=0A<div>recipient. This information is granted for limited distr=
ibution</div>=0A<div>within</div>=0A<div>the</div>=0A<div>recipient's place=
 of business for planning purposes only. Further</div>=0A<div>dissemination=
, whether private or public is prohibited.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv212=
8506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 s=
olid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>--- On S=
at, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc=
.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>wrote:=
</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"=
 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<=
div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>From: Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" t=
arget=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkat=
hleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>=0A<div>Subj=
ect: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>=0A<div>To: "C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE" &lt;<a rel=
=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, "<a rel=
=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>"</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>=
&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>=0A<blockqu=
ote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-=
LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>Date: Saturda=
y, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Hello C. He=
nry &amp; others,</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Thanks for taking a loo=
k at this.&nbsp;&nbsp;We have a few considerations in</div>=0A<div>this</di=
v>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (an=
d there may be more</div>=0A<div>once</div>=0A<div>RFC5070-bis is actively =
edited).</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLO=
CKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 =
5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>The AdditionalData class and the RecordIte=
m class both allow for</div>=0A<div>non-XML</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>ex=
tensions.&nbsp;&nbsp;Where you place the extensions should be specific to t=
he</div>=0A<div>logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understa=
nd more</div>=0A<div>about</div>=0A<div>the</div>=0A<div>included data in m=
ost cases.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_B=
LOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 =
0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>The Impact class can be used to provide =
context information on the</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>included data of th=
e report and also can include a confidence rating</div>=0A<div>on</div>=0A<=
div>the</div>=0A<div>report as a whole.&nbsp;&nbsp;Extensions related to im=
pact would be one level</div>=0A<div>higher</div>=0A<div>(at the moment) in=
 the Assessment class using the AdditionalData</div>=0A<div>extension</div>=
=0A<div>point.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTI=
ON_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:=
0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Take asked about including vulnerabi=
lity information, I would think</div>=0A<div>that</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<=
div>would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in</=
div>=0A<div>the</div>=0A<div>Method class.&nbsp;&nbsp;He did ask about non-=
XML.&nbsp;&nbsp;RecordItem or</div>=0A<div>AdditionalData</div>=0A<div>do</=
div>=0A<div>allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SC=
I</div>=0A<div>draft</div>=0A<div>handle these as well or have the extensio=
ns that are non-XML come</div>=0A<div>directly</div>=0A<div>off the Additio=
nalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes</div>=0A<div>sense</d=
iv>=0A<div>from a logical standpoint.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv21285061=
79MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;=
PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>As for my que=
stion, it was two-fold.</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Indicator based s=
chemas have a reference number or a GUID for the</div>=0A<div>various</div>=
=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>indicators they share.&nbsp;&nbsp;If we are extendi=
ng to embed other schemas</div>=0A<div>that</div>=0A<div>include such refer=
ence or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an</div>=0A<div>attribute</div>=
=0A<div>to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?&nbsp;&nb=
sp;Is this</div>=0A<div>enough</div>=0A<div>to make the connections or is s=
omething else else needed?&nbsp;&nbsp;We could</div>=0A<div>add</div>=0A<di=
v>something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then</div>=0A<d=
iv>correlate</div>=0A<div>to</div>=0A<div>the reference or GUID identifiers=
.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE=
" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A=
<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Then the other question was on how to include ind=
icators that are</div>=0A<div>not</div>=0A<div>in</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<=
div>the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or"</d=
iv>=0A<div>to</div>=0A<div>specify the relationships.&nbsp;&nbsp;In some ca=
ses, you will want to group</div>=0A<div>these</div>=0A<div>indictors in on=
e extension point, where they may fit logically in</div>=0A<div>multiple</d=
iv>=0A<div>places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data=
</div>=0A<div>format.&nbsp;&nbsp;If</div>=0A<div>we have cases like this wh=
ere you need more complex representations,</div>=0A<div>should</div>=0A<div=
>we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData</div>=0A=
<div>class</div>=0A<div>AdditionalData extension point?&nbsp;&nbsp;Opinions=
 are needed here....</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATT=
RIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;M=
ARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>A few people have mentioned wa=
nting to include some commonly shared</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>indictor=
s into the base IODEF document.&nbsp;&nbsp;We could have a catch-all</div>=
=0A<div>class</div>=0A<div>that does this and has an extension point off of=
 it in EventData or</div>=0A<div>we</div>=0A<div>could</div>=0A<div>continu=
e to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and</div>=0A<div=
>then</div>=0A<div>have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI=
.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think I</div>=0A<div>like</div>=0A<div>the latter approach.<=
/div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" =
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<d=
iv><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Thank you,</div>=0A<div>Kathleen</div>=0A<div>_____=
___________________________________</div>=0A<div>From: <a rel=3D"nofollow" =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmi=
le-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of C.</div>=0A<div>Henr=
y</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>Adams &amp; BIE [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2=
000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128=
506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 so=
lid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>Sent: Saturday, January 26, 20=
13 3:05 AM</div>=0A<div>To: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"h=
ttp://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org<=
/a></div>=0A<div>Cc: C. Henry Adams</div>=0A<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</=
div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Greetings Everyone,</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</=
div>=0A<div>Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :</div>=0A<=
/blockquote>=0A<div>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------</div>=0A<div>--------</div>=0A<div>--------------------------=
</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"=
 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<=
div>1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning</div=
>=0A<div>of</div>=0A<div>information leakage, it could be an event that are=
 conveyed in the</div>=0A<div>SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.</div>=0A<div><=
br>=0A</div>=0A<div>2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones=
, I guess it</div>=0A<div>could</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>be</div>=0A<bl=
ockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BO=
RDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>conveyed=
 without using SCI draft.</div>=0A<div>For instance, we could use Impact cl=
ass of the base IODEF to convey</div>=0A<div>the indicators.</div>=0A<div>W=
e could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact</div>=0A<d=
iv>class,</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>if</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128=
506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 so=
lid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>needed.</div>=0A</blockquote>=
=0A<div>-------------------------------------------------------------------=
-</div>=0A<div>--------</div>=0A<div>--------------------------</div>=0A<bl=
ockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BO=
RDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A<=
/div>=0A<div>In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"</div>=0A<div><br=
>=0A</div>=0A<div>Whereas, Kathleen stated,</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>--=
------------------------------------------------------------------</div>=0A=
<div>--------</div>=0A<div>-------------------------</div>=0A<blockquote id=
=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#=
b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>For the discussion =
below, I was thinking more of combined set with</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<di=
v>relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so</div>=
=0A<div>that's</div>=0A<div>why I was thinking about the EventData class, b=
ut there may be better</div>=0A<div>locations or a specific area within the=
 EventData.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_=
BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detectio=
n" class as a consideration.</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>-----------------=
---------------------------------------------------</div>=0A<div>--------</=
div>=0A<div>------------------------</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv212850617=
9MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;P=
ADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Kathleen thoug=
hts related yet still with other indicators and the</div>=0A</blockquote>=
=0A<div>EventData Class.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK=
_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0=
 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Is there a possible way to=
 create a new XML class which encompass</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>combin=
ing the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify</div>=0A<di=
v>this</div>=0A<div>issue?</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLO=
OK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0=
 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>C. =
Henry Adams</div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http=
://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga20=
00@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)</div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"=
_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@=
biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a></div>=0A<div><br>=0A</=
div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>The information contained herein is for th=
e exclusive use of the</div>=0A<div>original</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div>r=
ecipient. This information is granted for limited distribution</div>=0A<div=
>within</div>=0A<div>the</div>=0A<div>recipient's place of business for pla=
nning purposes only. Further</div>=0A<div>dissemination, whether private or=
 public is prohibited.</div>=0A<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_A=
TTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5=
;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=0A<div>_______________________________________________</=
div>=0A<div>mile mailing list</div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_b=
lank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org"=
>mile@ietf.org</a></div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile">https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/mile</a></div>=0A</blockquote>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div><br>=0A</d=
iv>=0A<div>_______________________________________________</div>=0A<div>mil=
e mailing list</div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"h=
ttp://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org<=
/a></div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile<=
/a></div>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>_____________________=
__________________________</div>=0A<div>mile mailing list</div>=0A<div><a r=
el=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc=
/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofol=
low" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a></div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=
=0A</blockquote>=0A</blockquote>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>______________=
_________________________________</div>=0A<div>mile mailing list</div>=0A<d=
iv><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo=
.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>=0A<div><a rel=
=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/mile">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a></div>=0A</blockquot=
e>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>____________________________________________=
___</div>=0A<div>mile mailing list</div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@iet=
f.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"=
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/mile</a></div>=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</b=
lockquote>=0A</span>=0A</div>=0A=0A</div></td></tr></table>
--1458340343-941635131-1360769048=:12028--

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From: Kevin Neely <ktneely@juniper.net>
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:29:27 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
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Merely as a data point, here is a reference to the Collective Intelligence =
Framework's description of confidence levels.  They also use 5 categories w=
ith numeric ranges.  More detail available at the link:
https://code.google.com/p/collective-intelligence-framework/wiki/TaxonomyCo=
nfidence_v1

Certain (95 - 100)
Very Confident (85 - 94)
Somewhat Confident (75 - 84)
Not Confident (50 - 74)
Unknown (0 - 49)
cheers,
K

From: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<mailto:chatlga2000@yaho=
o.com>>
Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:24 AM
To: MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org<mailto:mile@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of the Co=
nfidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a simplified schema as=
 such below:

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>

( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  Urge=
nt, 5 =3D Imminent )

Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated definitions=
 can lower the propagation of error regarding the analysis.

Thanks,
C. Henry Adams


I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low, medium=
 and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will want to show t=
hat confidence in a situation is increasing or decreasing.  If we are only =
looking at a three levels, we cannot express what is needed to show confide=
nce is trending up on the data being exchanged about the event.

Kathleen included the following in a previous message.

<Confidence rating=3D"low"/>

Vs:

<Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>

I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded to sinc=
e confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is indeed subjec=
tive and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate confidence index tha=
t the sender is trying to convey.

Kent Landfield

McAfee | An Intel Company
Direct: +1.972.963.7096
Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
Web: www.mcafee.com<http://www.mcafee.com/>

From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov<http://us.mc534.mai=
l.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djohn.banghart@nist.gov>>
Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/=
mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com>>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriar=
ty@emc.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty=
@emc.com>>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch<http://us.mc534.mail.ya=
hoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>
Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org<htt=
p://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Paul,

I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be reduced
within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization of indicators
and response between tightly connected sharing partners might require a
more specific level of detail, particularly during a crisis situation.

>From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for additional
granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as preferred for
broad interoperability.

-John

On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com<http://us.mc534=
.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com>> wrote:

I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)

Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
essentially would say something like:

1-33 =3D Low
34-67=3D Medium
68-100=3DHigh

Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low, Medium,
High...do we really thing that how High something is makes that much of a
difference?

This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does Not
Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High
Meets...your
bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other Meets got
;-)

Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why use
numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.


Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.co=
m/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>






On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<http://=
us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>>
wrote:

Hello,

Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The representation
looks a little different for each, here is an example:

<Confidence rating=3D"low"/>

Vs:

<Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>

Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from
more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
specifying how to select ranges.

Any other opinions?

Thanks,
Kathleen

-----Original Message-----
From: Stoecker, Paul
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
To: Brian Trammell
Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium, and
Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate against
the schema.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell" <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch<http=
://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>
wrote:

Hi, Kathleen, all,

I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build
interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
(Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean
"we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and rigorous
than it needs to be.)

Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably
measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, however
educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own scales such
that each value generally means the same thing in each report. Across
teams, I don't know.

On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating a
response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,
though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.

If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I
agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note
that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high,
unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the
users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning "yes" and 0
meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is purely
coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent" in 5070-bis.

Best regards,

Brian (as contributor)


On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
<kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dk=
athleen.moriarty@emc.com>> wrote:

Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for
anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various markers
that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating the markers
meaning.

I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned
from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective element
to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary from
entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to consider
who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to
your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Kathleen

From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc534.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>]
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
To: MILE IETF
Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs


Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears
that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization to
be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.

Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of
urgency.
( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  Urge=
nt,
5 =3D Imminent )

Thanks,
C. Henry Adams



I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence
the
way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me
an IoC
with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a
scale of
1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability
to
describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
when we
store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are
numeric
as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very problematic.

At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
recommend
that we revisit this at some point.

Thanks,

--Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Hi Chris & Take,

I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
allows for
you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and
high.
Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
If
people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful
to have
guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.

I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches,
so
we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is
nice to
keep in flexible options where we can.

Thank you,
Kathleen

-----Original Message-----
From: Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs

My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break
it
down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on
scoring,
rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand
low/med/high
without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the
level.

Low - I am not sure
Medium - I am reasonably sure
High - I am very sure


Thanks,

--Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp<http://us.mc53=
4.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>]
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to
deal
with large sets of indicators.
Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
omitted
if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.

Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
attribute
for the reason Chris kindly described.
I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
For
instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",
etc?

Thank you.
Take


-----Original Message-----
From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com<http:/=
/us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.com>]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have
seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:

Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor

Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
science by any means.

Thanks,

--Chris


-----Original Message-----
From: Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

Hi Take & others,

Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a
few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view
point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that
could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be
better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).

-----Original Message-----
From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp<http://us.mc53=
4.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
'MILE
IETF'
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

I like this discussion.
I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
the IOC-related classes.

KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get
into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could
also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that
could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I
agree it doesn't make as much sense.

What do others think?

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not
fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for
these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
(more details
on
this in my first message).

If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event
record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the
XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.

KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into
guidance
in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?


For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
KMM: Sounds good, thanks!

I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
the indicator_set_id.
I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any
other way to express these groupings.
For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
In
this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?

KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
relationships
in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it
into
the current
structure.
If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
options, that would be appreciated!

Thank you,
Kathleen

I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
I
think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
mis-understood some points.

By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
classes'
attributes so that they can be correlated with another information
as
well.

Thanks
Take



From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
mile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.y=
ahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
Of Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
If
I give you
2
registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
have the same group ID since they are related.

Thanks,
--Chris

From: Stoecker, Paul
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
same group ID.
Would this resolve the issue?

It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them
into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them
as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
complicated like STIX.

Paul


Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.co=
m/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>


From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<http://us.mc534.mail.=
yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>>
Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com<http://us.mc5=
34.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.com>>, MILE
IETF <mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@iet=
f.org>>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Hi Chris,

I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.

The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to
the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes
back in July, both for guidance and for
format
updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least
some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at
least a proposed solution.

As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
new category attribute values for the System class that would connect
the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
AttackType
(FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader
term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute
values
like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added
context
so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.

I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
indicators,
add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect
indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of
indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared
into the base IODEF.

Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we
could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
for
other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System
class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at the
more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an
indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Maybe
we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions on
this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas
that may work better.

We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values
or something else.

Thank you!
Kathleen

From: Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
show are
related:

Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
threat:
       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
compromise.

Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
threat:
       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
not
be
present.

The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
where
both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that
logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send
multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.

The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
send both the
MD5
and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the
IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
use
a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher
level
grouping.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

--Chris

Christopher Harrington
Consulting Security Engineer
GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
174 Middlesex Turnpike
Bedford, MA 01730
781-515-5862 (work)
603-583-1585 (cell)

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
mile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.y=
ahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
Of Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

All -

I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from
the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
and additionally in Paul's message.

Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.

Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
context information that may also include IP address or other data
that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to
connect
sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability
to
have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,
as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded
schemas.

If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to
mark
who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing
when it is not permitted or handle that separately?

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on
this in my first message).

Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
solution to have this machine automatable.

Thank you,
Kathleen

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
mile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.y=
ahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
Of C.
Henry Adams & BIE
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran
across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking
the IP Address to your computer?"

I replied, "I don't know, how?"

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL

Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
or
let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the
great
minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize
reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their
pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar
devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that
makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
cutting it off (figuratively speaking).

Just a visionary thought.

C. Henry Adams
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com>
http://biemediagroup.com


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
original recipient. This information is granted for limited
distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
prohibited.

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org<http://us.mc534.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org>> wrote:

From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org>>
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>>
Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
DNS
SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?

Yours Faithfully,

Dave Misell MSc CISSP
SilentCircle  dsm
07710 380044
david.misell@bcs.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.m=
isell@bcs.org>


On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
<chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatl=
ga2000@yahoo.com>>
wrote:

Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
was
closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
"consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds
in some instances."

However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
would
be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study
this
Security Art Form in a negative way.

C. Henry Adams
chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlg=
a2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<http://us.mc5=
34.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com>


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
within
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

Re: [mile] IOCs

Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
From:
"Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com>>
To:
"mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org=
>" <mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.=
org>>
I would like to look at this from a slightly different
perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one,
even
if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
which
one I should use as the indicator.

If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would
allow
us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit
to
being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
activity that I have detected off of those indicators.


I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How
is
the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?

Regards,

Paul



Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.co=
m/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>

--- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.=
mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>>
wrote:

From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>>
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>>
Cc: mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.=
org>
Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM

Greetings Kathleen,

Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
many
avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you
share
a
few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
----------------------------------------------
"we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now
in
IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
SCI."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
---------------------------------------------

You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
wanted to
protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what
appears
to
be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.



C. Henry Adams
chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlg=
a2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Email)
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com>

The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
within
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

--- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<http://u=
s.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>>
wrote:

From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<http://us.mc534.mail.ya=
hoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>>
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>>, "mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc5=
34.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>"
<mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org=
>>
Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM

Hello C. Henry & others,

Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
this
email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more
once
RFC5070-bis is actively edited).

The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
non-XML
extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more
about
the
included data in most cases.

The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating
on
the
report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level
higher
(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData
extension
point.

Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
that
would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
the
Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or
AdditionalData
do
allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI
draft
handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come
directly
off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes
sense
from a logical standpoint.

As for my question, it was two-fold.

Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
various
indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas
that
include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an
attribute
to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this
enough
to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could
add
something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then
correlate
to
the reference or GUID identifiers.

Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are
not
in
the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or"
to
specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
these
indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in
multiple
places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
format.  If
we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
should
we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData
class
AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....

A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
class
that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or
we
could
continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
then
have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I
like
the latter approach.

Thank you,
Kathleen
________________________________________
From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
mile-bounces@ietf.org> [mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.co=
m/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of C.
Henry
Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>]
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
To: mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.=
org>
Cc: C. Henry Adams
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Greetings Everyone,

Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
--------------------------
1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning
of
information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.

2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
could
be
conveyed without using SCI draft.
For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
the indicators.
We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
class,
if
needed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
--------------------------

In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"

Whereas, Kathleen stated,
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
-------------------------
For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
that's
why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
locations or a specific area within the EventData.

Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
------------------------

Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
EventData Class.

Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
this
issue?


C. Henry Adams
chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlg=
a2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Email)
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com>


The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
original
recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
within
the
recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
_______________________________________________
mile mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile


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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile



--_000_CD40FB56BAB5ktneelyjunipernet_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2"
Content-ID: <BA70392FC1AF904D9E55384CD2981781@namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
2">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; ">
<div style=3D"font-size: 14px; ">Merely as a data point, here is a referenc=
e to the Collective Intelligence Framework's description of confidence leve=
ls. &nbsp;They also use 5 categories with numeric ranges. &nbsp;More detail=
 available at the link:</div>
<div style=3D"font-size: 14px; "><a href=3D"https://code.google.com/p/colle=
ctive-intelligence-framework/wiki/TaxonomyConfidence_v1">https://code.googl=
e.com/p/collective-intelligence-framework/wiki/TaxonomyConfidence_v1</a></d=
iv>
<div style=3D"font-size: 14px; "><br>
</div>
<div>
<h2><span style=3D"font-weight: normal; font-size: 16px;">Certain (95 - 100=
)</span></h2>
<h2><span style=3D"font-weight: normal; font-size: 16px;"><a name=3D"Very_C=
onfident_(85_-_94)"></a>Very Confident (85 - 94)</span></h2>
<h2><span style=3D"font-weight: normal; font-size: 16px;"><a name=3D"Somewh=
at_Confident_(75_-_84)"></a>Somewhat Confident (75 - 84)</span></h2>
<h2><span style=3D"font-weight: normal; font-size: 16px;"><a name=3D"Not_Co=
nfident_(50_-_74)"></a>Not Confident (50 - 74)</span></h2>
<h2><span style=3D"font-weight: normal; font-size: 16px;"><a name=3D"Unknow=
n_(0_-_49)"></a>Unknown (0 - 49)</span></h2>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-size: 14px; ">cheers,</div>
<div style=3D"font-size: 14px; ">K</div>
<div style=3D"font-size: 14px; "><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; ">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BI=
E&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday, February 13, 2013 =
7:24 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>MILE IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:mile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [mile] IOCs<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top" style=3D"font: inherit;">
<div id=3D"yiv2128506179">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of t=
he Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a simplified sche=
ma as such below:<br>
<br>
&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot; Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;1LL&lt;/&gt; .... etc.=
<br>
<br>
&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot; Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;2P&lt;/&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot; Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;3AC&lt;/&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot; Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;4U&lt;/&gt;<br>
<br>
&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot; Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;5I&lt;/&gt;<br>
<br>
<span id=3D"yiv2128506179OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div>( i.e.&nbsp;&nbsp;1 =3D Less Likely,&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 =3D Probable,&nbsp;=
&nbsp;3 =3D A Concern,&nbsp;&nbsp;4 =3D&nbsp;&nbsp;Urgent, 5 =3D Imminent )=
<br>
<br>
Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated definitions=
 can lower the propagation of error regarding the analysis.&nbsp;&nbsp;
<br>
</div>
</span><br>
Thanks,<br>
C. Henry Adams<br>
<br>
<br>
I agree that what we really need is both. &nbsp;In most situations a low, m=
edium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will want to s=
how that confidence in a situation is increasing or decreasing. &nbsp;If we=
 are only looking at a three levels, we cannot
 express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the data being=
 exchanged about the event.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kathleen included the following in a previous message.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Consolas;font-size:medium;">&lt;Confidence rating=
=3D&quot;low&quot;/&gt;</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Consolas;font-size:medium;"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Consolas;font-size:medium;">Vs:</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Consolas;font-size:medium;"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Consolas;font-size:medium;">&lt;Confidence rating=
=3D&quot;numeric&quot;&gt;85&lt;/&gt;</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded to=
 since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is indeed s=
ubjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate confidence inde=
x that the sender is trying to convey.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class=3D"yiv2128506179Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(96, =
106, 113); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; bord=
er-spacing: 1px; "><strong>Kent Landfield</strong><br>
<br>
<strong>McAfee | An Intel Company</strong><br>
Direct: &#43;1.972.963.7096&nbsp;<br>
Mobile: &#43;1.817.637.8026<br>
<strong>Web:&nbsp;</strong><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ht=
tp://www.mcafee.com/" style=3D"color:rgb(96, 106, 113);">www.mcafee.com</a>=
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"yiv2128506179OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt;">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From: </span>&lt;Banghart&gt;, John Bangh=
art &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.=
yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djohn.banghart@nist.gov">john.banghart@nist.gov</a=
>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Date: </span>Wednesday, February 13, 2013=
 7:16 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">To: </span>&quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt=
;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.c=
om/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;, Ka=
thleen Moriarty &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us=
.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.m=
oriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;,
 Brian Trammell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us=
.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch">trammell@tik=
.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Cc: </span>&quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE=
&quot; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</=
a>&gt;, MILE IETF &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://=
us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Subject: </span>Re: [mile] IOCs<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>
<div>
<div>Paul,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be reduced=
</div>
<div>within communities that interact frequently.&nbsp;&nbsp;Prioritization=
 of indicators</div>
<div>and response between tightly connected sharing partners might require =
a</div>
<div>more specific level of detail, particularly during a crisis situation.=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for additiona=
l</div>
<div>granularity, while stressing the &quot;high, medium, low&quot; as pref=
erred for</div>
<div>broad interoperability.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-John</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, &quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow"=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DP=
aul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective<=
/div>
<div>terms:&nbsp;&nbsp;Low, Medium, High.&nbsp;&nbsp;Having a numeric scale=
 with a map that</div>
<div>essentially would say something like:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1-33 =3D Low</div>
<div>34-67=3D Medium</div>
<div>68-100=3DHigh</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low, Medium=
,</div>
<div>High...do we really thing that how High something is makes that much o=
f a</div>
<div>difference?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does Not=
</div>
<div>Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High</div=
>
<div>Meets...your</div>
<div>bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other Meets g=
ot</div>
<div>;-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that<=
/div>
<div>confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why=
 use</div>
<div>numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.</div>
<div>SMC Lead Content Architect</div>
<div>RSA, The Security Division of EMC</div>
<div>cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=
http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com">
paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, &quot;Moriarty, Kathleen&quot; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofol=
low" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Hello,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Both approaches will validate in the current schema.&nbsp;&nbsp;The re=
presentation</div>
<div>looks a little different for each, here is an example:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot;low&quot;/&gt;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Vs:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot;numeric&quot;&gt;85&lt;/&gt;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Searching capability is a great point, agreed.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like to =
hear from</div>
<div>more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find</=
div>
<div>extremely useful (need to gauge that).&nbsp;&nbsp;Other options is tha=
t the</div>
<div>guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to</di=
v>
<div>specifying how to select ranges.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Any other opinions?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Stoecker, Paul</div>
<div>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM</div>
<div>To: Brian Trammell</div>
<div>Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE; MILE IETF</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:&nbsp;&nbsp;High=
, Medium, and</div>
<div>Low?&nbsp;&nbsp;Any other value means that the Document will mot valid=
ate against</div>
<div>the schema.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, &quot;Brian Trammell&quot; &lt;<a rel=3D"=
nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch">trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;</div>
<div>wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Hi, Kathleen, all,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build<=
/div>
<div>interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.</d=
iv>
<div>(Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value &quot;70&quot; w=
ould mean</div>
<div>&quot;we compared this incident report to N past similar incident repo=
rts</div>
<div>according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had</=
div>
<div>assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I</=
div>
<div>think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and rigorous=
</div>
<div>than it needs to be.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably<=
/div>
<div>measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in</div>
<div>many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, howev=
er</div>
<div>educated.&nbsp;&nbsp;Each team will probably naturally tune its own sc=
ales such</div>
<div>that each value generally means the same thing in each report. Across<=
/div>
<div>teams, I don't know.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated</div>
<div>guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating =
a</div>
<div>response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,</=
div>
<div>though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.<=
/div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we've seen a general trend toward &quot;0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%&quot=
;, then I</div>
<div>agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note<=
/div>
<div>that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high,=
</div>
<div>unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the</=
div>
<div>users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning &quot;yes&q=
uot; and 0</div>
<div>meaning &quot;any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is =
purely</div>
<div>coincidental&quot;, then let's consider renaming it &quot;percent&quot=
; in 5070-bis.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian (as contributor)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, &quot;Moriarty, Kathleen&quot;</div>
<div>&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.&nbsp;&nbsp;W=
e can</div>
<div>change it if it needs to be changed.&nbsp;&nbsp;The value is for a con=
fidence</div>
<div>rating on the indicators shared.&nbsp;&nbsp;The definitions may be hel=
pful for</div>
<div>anyone who wants to work on this discussion.&nbsp;&nbsp;IODEF has vari=
ous markers</div>
<div>that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating the markers=
</div>
<div>meaning.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more</div>
<div>helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned</=
div>
<div>from using the current structure (what works/does not work).&nbsp;&nbs=
p;The</div>
<div>scales I have seen are 0-100.&nbsp;&nbsp;There is of course a subjecti=
ve element</div>
<div>to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary from<=
/div>
<div>entity to entity.&nbsp;&nbsp;With this type of rating you may need to =
consider</div>
<div>who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to</=
div>
<div>your own rating.&nbsp;&nbsp;It would be good to hear more thoughts on =
this.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.co=
m">mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]</div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM</div>
<div>To: MILE IETF</div>
<div>Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital</di=
v>
<div>point.&nbsp;&nbsp;Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.&nb=
sp;&nbsp;It appears</div>
<div>that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization to=
</div>
<div>be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of=
</div>
<div>urgency.</div>
<div>( i.e.&nbsp;&nbsp;1 =3D Less Likely,&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 =3D Probable,&nbsp;=
&nbsp;3 =3D A Concern,&nbsp;&nbsp;4 =3D&nbsp;&nbsp;Urgent,</div>
<div>5 =3D Imminent )</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>C. Henry Adams</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence=
</div>
<div>the</div>
<div>way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me</=
div>
<div>an IoC</div>
<div>with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a</d=
iv>
<div>scale of</div>
<div>1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability</=
div>
<div>to</div>
<div>describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly</di=
v>
<div>when we</div>
<div>store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are</di=
v>
<div>numeric</div>
<div>as well as text.&nbsp;&nbsp;Makes searching / sorting very problematic=
.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly</div=
>
<div>recommend</div>
<div>that we revisit this at some point.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--Chris</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Moriarty, Kathleen</div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM</div>
<div>To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;</div=
>
<div>'MILE</div>
<div>IETF'</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi Chris &amp; Take,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.&nbsp;&nbsp;Right now, the s=
chema</div>
<div>allows for</div>
<div>you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and=
</div>
<div>high.</div>
<div>Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.</=
div>
<div>If</div>
<div>people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful</=
div>
<div>to have</div>
<div>guidance.&nbsp;&nbsp;This could go in the IODE guidance document.</div=
>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches,=
</div>
<div>so</div>
<div>we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is</d=
iv>
<div>nice to</div>
<div>keep in flexible options where we can.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Harrington, Christopher</div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM</div>
<div>To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE</di=
v>
<div>IETF'</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of</div>
<div>indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP<=
/div>
<div>addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have<=
/div>
<div>separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break=
</div>
<div>it</div>
<div>down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on</di=
v>
<div>scoring,</div>
<div>rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand</div>
<div>low/med/high</div>
<div>without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the</div>
<div>level.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Low - I am not sure</div>
<div>Medium - I am reasonably sure</div>
<div>High - I am very sure</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--Chris</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Takeshi Takahashi [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D=
"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go.j=
p">mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>]</div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM</div>
<div>To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=
</div>
<div>IETF'</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to<=
/div>
<div>deal</div>
<div>with large sets of indicators.</div>
<div>Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be</di=
v>
<div>omitted</div>
<div>if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence</div>
<div>attribute</div>
<div>for the reason Chris kindly described.</div>
<div>I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?<=
/div>
<div>For</div>
<div>instance, 1 means &quot;no confidence&quot; while 5 means &quot;strong=
 confidence&quot;,</div>
<div>etc?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you.</div>
<div>Take</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Harrington, Christopher [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harringto=
n@emc.com">mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>]</div>
<div>Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM</div>
<div>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE</div>
<div>IETF'</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have</=
div>
<div>seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Indicator --&gt; Indictor Set --&gt; Campaign --&gt; Threat Actor</div=
>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a &quot;Confidence&quot; at=
tribute</div>
<div>would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect</div=
>
<div>science by any means.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--Chris</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Moriarty, Kathleen</div>
<div>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM</div>
<div>To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE<=
/div>
<div>IETF'</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi Take &amp; others,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a</=
div>
<div>few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.&nbsp;&nbsp=
;I'll</div>
<div>provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view</=
div>
<div>point.&nbsp;&nbsp;We are also wondering how to also provide logic in I=
ODEF that</div>
<div>could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the</d=
iv>
<div>solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be<=
/div>
<div>better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: Takeshi Takahashi [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D=
"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go.j=
p">mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>]</div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM</div>
<div>To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;</div>
<div>'MILE</div>
<div>IETF'</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>I like this discussion.</div>
<div>I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside</d=
iv>
<div>the IOC-related classes.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that</d=
iv>
<div>should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same</=
div>
<div>class that is a related issue, but a separate set.&nbsp;&nbsp;We could=
 as you</div>
<div>say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.</di=
v>
<div>The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get</=
div>
<div>into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;Th=
is could</div>
<div>also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that<=
/div>
<div>could have been shared previously.&nbsp;&nbsp;If there are a large num=
ber of</div>
<div>indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I</=
div>
<div>agree it doesn't make as much sense.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What do others think?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not</div>
<div>fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for</div>
<div>these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?</div>
<div>(more details</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div>on</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>this in my first message).</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event</div>
<div>record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the</div>
<div>XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.&nbsp;&nbsp;This should go int=
o</div>
<div>guidance</div>
<div>in the SCI draft.&nbsp;&nbsp;Does anyone else want to weigh in?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.</di=
v>
</blockquote>
<div>KMM: Sounds good, thanks!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of</d=
iv>
<div>the indicator_set_id.</div>
<div>I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids</d=
iv>
<div>and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any</div>
<div>other way to express these groupings.</div>
<div>For instance,&nbsp;&nbsp;a Reference class refers to several indicadto=
r_uids.</div>
</blockquote>
<div>In</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or</d=
iv>
<div>subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?&nbsp;&nbsp;W=
ould this</div>
<div>happen?&nbsp;&nbsp;Would it be easier to express relationships with se=
ts of</div>
<div>indicators in addition to individual indicators?&nbsp;&nbsp;By using t=
his, it</div>
<div>could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and</div>
<div>relationships</div>
<div>in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it</div=
>
<div>into</div>
<div>the current</div>
</blockquote>
<div>structure.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some</=
div>
<div>options, that would be appreciated!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though</d=
iv>
</blockquote>
<div>I</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have</div>
<div>mis-understood some points.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI</div=
>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div>classes'</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>attributes so that they can be correlated with another information</di=
v>
<div>as</div>
</blockquote>
<div>well.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div>Take</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">
mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ht=
tp://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:=
mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf</div>
<div>Of Harrington, Christopher</div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM</div>
<div>To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a</div>
<div>logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.</d=
iv>
<div>If</div>
<div>I give you</div>
<div>2</div>
<div>registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of</=
div>
<div>compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would</di=
v>
<div>have the same group ID since they are related.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>--Chris</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: Stoecker, Paul</div>
<div>Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM</div>
<div>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?</div=
>
<div>This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the</di=
v>
<div>same group ID.</div>
<div>Would this resolve the issue?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)<=
/div>
<div>class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them<=
/div>
<div>into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go</div>
<div>together.&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't mean a place to put indicators that are m=
issing</div>
<div>from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the</div=
>
<div>indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared</d=
iv>
<div>Incident.&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't know the answer here, but there has got t=
o be a</div>
<div>good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them<=
/div>
<div>as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something</div>
<div>complicated like STIX.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.</div>
<div>SMC Lead Content Architect</div>
<div>RSA, The Security Division of EMC</div>
<div>cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=
http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com">
paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: &lt;Moriarty&gt;, Kathleen &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_bl=
ank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriar=
ty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM</div>
<div>To: &quot;Harrington, Christopher&quot; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristop=
her.Harrington@emc.com">Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>&gt;, MILE</div>
<div>IETF &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534=
.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi Chris,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.</d=
iv>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to</=
div>
<div>the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including</d=
iv>
<div>indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to</div=
>
<div>'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for</di=
v>
<div>sharing purposes.&nbsp;&nbsp;It was written before we used terms like<=
/div>
<div>indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of=
 changes</div>
<div>back in July, both for guidance and for</div>
</blockquote>
<div>format</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>updates.&nbsp;&nbsp;It may help to have the first draft try to address=
 at least</div>
<div>some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at</div=
>
<div>least a proposed solution.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between</di=
v>
<div>sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that</d=
iv>
<div>could have a relationship to each other within a document.&nbsp;&nbsp;=
In the</div>
<div>July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add</d=
iv>
<div>new category attribute values for the System class that would connect<=
/div>
<div>the list of included indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think we should still ke=
ep the</div>
<div>concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list</d=
iv>
<div>multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.&nbsp;&nbsp;Rose=
lla had</div>
<div>suggested pulling forward the &quot;FraudType&quot; from RFC5901, this=
 would</div>
<div>help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an</div>
<div>AttackType</div>
<div>(FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader</div=
>
<div>term).&nbsp;&nbsp;It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attrib=
ute</div>
<div>values</div>
<div>like &quot;C2-server&quot;, &quot;sinkhole&quot;,&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;Mal=
wareDistribution&quot; for added</div>
<div>context</div>
<div>so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of</div>
</blockquote>
<div>indicators,</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect<=
/div>
<div>indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of</d=
iv>
<div>indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the</di=
v>
<div>connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared</=
div>
<div>into the base IODEF.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and</div=
>
<div>hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help</di=
v>
<div>Chris below).&nbsp;&nbsp;What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs=
 as a</div>
<div>class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in</div>
<div>RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?</=
div>
<div>I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we</=
div>
<div>could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure</di=
v>
<div>for</div>
<div>other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System<=
/div>
<div>class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.&nbsp;&nbsp;The=
n at the</div>
<div>more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an<=
/div>
<div>indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?&nbsp;&nb=
sp;Maybe</div>
<div>we want indicator_set at the higher level?&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like some op=
inions on</div>
<div>this approach.&nbsp;&nbsp;&#43;1 if you agree, suggestions if you have=
 other ideas</div>
<div>that may work better.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent</div>
<div>forward sharing when not permitted.&nbsp;&nbsp;We may want to use thes=
e values</div>
<div>or something else.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you!</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: Harrington, Christopher</div>
<div>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM</div>
<div>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the</d=
iv>
<div>Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In<=
/div>
<div>that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to</di=
v>
<div>show are</div>
<div>related:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same</div>
<div>threat:</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The file hash of a malicious file=
 and the URL of the C2 that</div>
<div>the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a</div>
<div>compromise.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same</div>
<div>threat:</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 different registry values for t=
he same registry key. If</div>
<div>either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will</di=
v>
<div>not</div>
<div>be</div>
</blockquote>
<div>present.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario</div>
<div>where</div>
<div>both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that<=
/div>
<div>logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send</di=
v>
<div>multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different</div>
<div>indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to</di=
v>
<div>send both the</div>
<div>MD5</div>
<div>and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the</=
div>
<div>IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we</di=
v>
<div>use</div>
<div>a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher</=
div>
<div>level</div>
</blockquote>
<div>grouping.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thoughts?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--Chris</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christopher Harrington</div>
<div>Consulting Security Engineer</div>
<div>GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives<=
/div>
<div>174 Middlesex Turnpike</div>
<div>Bedford, MA 01730</div>
<div>781-515-5862 (work)</div>
<div>603-583-1585 (cell)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">
mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ht=
tp://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:=
mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf</div>
<div>Of Moriarty, Kathleen</div>
<div>Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM</div>
<div>To: MILE IETF</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All -</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from</=
div>
<div>the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message</d=
iv>
<div>and additionally in Paul's message.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Interesting point, C. Henry.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our objective here is to have =
machine</div>
<div>automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation<=
/div>
<div>to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from</=
div>
<div>context information that may also include IP address or other data</di=
v>
<div>that could be indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;The question I raised was on how =
to</div>
<div>connect</div>
<div>sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability</d=
iv>
<div>to</div>
<div>have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,</=
div>
<div>as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded</div=
>
<div>schemas.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say</d=
iv>
<div>'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?&nbsp;&nbsp;Do we use th=
is to</div>
<div>mark</div>
<div>who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing<=
/div>
<div>when it is not permitted or handle that separately?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit</=
div>
<div>into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off</=
div>
<div>of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on<=
/div>
<div>this in my first message).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical</d=
iv>
<div>solution to have this machine automatable.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">
mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ht=
tp://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:=
mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf</div>
<div>Of C.</div>
<div>Henry Adams &amp; BIE</div>
<div>Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM</div>
<div>To: MILE IETF</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp;&nbsp;I remember when I f=
irst ran</div>
<div>across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a</div=
>
<div>peculiar question.&nbsp;&nbsp;He said, &quot; How do you stop someone =
from tracking</div>
<div>the IP Address to your computer?&quot;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I replied, &quot;I don't know, how?&quot;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then he said, &quot;Cut the dog-gone thing off&nbsp;&nbsp;and the mode=
m that it is</div>
<div>connected- which is constantly on!&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; LOL</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :&nbsp;&nbsp;There is a 1st R=
esponder</div>
<div>searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster</d=
iv>
<div>or</div>
<div>let's just say &quot;Live&quot; Terrorist Situation.&nbsp;&nbsp;He /or=
 She needs to</div>
<div>communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in</div>
<div>Danger.&nbsp;&nbsp;The device used to communicate has been captured by=
 the</div>
<div>great</div>
<div>minds of the enemy.&nbsp;&nbsp;It's only a matter of time before they =
utilize</div>
<div>reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.&nbsp;&nbsp;However=
, their</div>
<div>pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar</=
div>
<div>devices to attack.&nbsp;&nbsp;Why? Perhaps the less thought of concept=
s that</div>
<div>makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or</div>
<div>cutting it off (figuratively speaking).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just a visionary thought.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C. Henry Adams</div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediag=
roup.com</a></div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://biemediagroup.com=
">http://biemediagroup.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the</div>
<div>original recipient. This information is granted for limited</div>
<div>distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning</di=
v>
<div>purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is</di=
v>
<div>prohibited.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_bl=
ank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bc=
s.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: Dave Misell &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ht=
tp://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.mi=
sell@bcs.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div>To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" targe=
t=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga=
2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with</di=
v>
<div>DNS</div>
<div>SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yours Faithfully,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dave Misell MSc CISSP</div>
<div>SilentCircle&nbsp;&nbsp;dsm</div>
<div>07710 380044</div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE</div>
<div>&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt;</div>
<div>wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way</di=
v>
<div>was</div>
</blockquote>
<div>closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,</div>
<div>&quot;consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant m=
inds</div>
<div>in some instances.&quot;</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.&nbsp;&nbsp;Howev=
er, it</div>
<div>would</div>
</blockquote>
<div>be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study</div=
>
<div>this</div>
<div>Security Art Form in a negative way.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C. Henry Adams</div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Di=
rect Email)
<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.co=
m/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">
chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the</div>
<div>original</div>
</blockquote>
<div>recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution</div>
<div>within</div>
<div>the</div>
<div>recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further</div=
>
<div>dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM</div>
<div>From:</div>
<div>&quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com=
">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>To:</div>
<div>&quot;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/m=
c/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div>I would like to look at this from a slightly different</div>
<div>perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an</=
div>
<div>incident.&nbsp;&nbsp;This document has source IP and destination IP th=
at is</div>
<div>being shared.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, what I don't know is which IP addres=
s is my</div>
<div>indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.&nbsp;&n=
bsp;This</div>
<div>means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use</=
div>
<div>either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one,</div>
<div>even</div>
<div>if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system</d=
iv>
</blockquote>
<div>which</div>
<div>one I should use as the indicator.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would</div>
<div>allow</div>
<div>us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.&nbsp;&nbsp;I do=
 admit</div>
<div>to</div>
<div>being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the</div>
<div>monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking</=
div>
<div>of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML</div>
<div>document and the other data that may be important as I investigate</di=
v>
<div>activity that I have detected off of those indicators.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more</div>
<div>flexibility with the indicator_uid.&nbsp;&nbsp;One thing that I haven'=
t</div>
<div>considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?&nbsp;&=
nbsp;How</div>
<div>is</div>
<div>the UID created?&nbsp;&nbsp;Are there standards for UIDs?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.</div>
<div>SMC Lead Content Architect</div>
<div>RSA, The Security Division of EMC</div>
<div>cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=
http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com">
paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dch=
atlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blan=
k" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo=
.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div>To: &quot;KathleenMoriarty&quot; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_bl=
ank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriar=
ty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Cc: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">
mile@ietf.org</a></div>
<div>Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greetings Kathleen,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the</di=
v>
<div>many</div>
</blockquote>
<div>avenues you review with this approach at once.&nbsp;&nbsp;However,&nbs=
p;&nbsp;could you</div>
<div>share</div>
<div>a</div>
<div>few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?</div>
<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</=
div>
<div>--------</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>&quot;we could continue to group items in logical places as is done no=
w</div>
<div>in</div>
</blockquote>
<div>IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via</d=
iv>
<div>SCI.&quot;</div>
<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</=
div>
<div>--------</div>
<div>---------------------------------------------</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I</div>
<div>wanted to</div>
</blockquote>
<div>protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your<=
/div>
<div>logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what</div>
<div>appears</div>
<div>to</div>
<div>be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C. Henry Adams</div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Di=
rect Email)</div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediag=
roup.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the</div>
<div>original</div>
</blockquote>
<div>recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution</div>
<div>within</div>
<div>the</div>
<div>recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further</div=
>
<div>dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen=
.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>
</blockquote>
<div>wrote:</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From: Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" hre=
f=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.c=
om">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div>To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" targe=
t=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga=
2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile=
@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot;</div>
</blockquote>
<div>&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hello C. Henry &amp; others,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for taking a look at this.&nbsp;&nbsp;We have a few considerati=
ons in</div>
<div>this</div>
</blockquote>
<div>email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more</=
div>
<div>once</div>
<div>RFC5070-bis is actively edited).</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for</div>
<div>non-XML</div>
</blockquote>
<div>extensions.&nbsp;&nbsp;Where you place the extensions should be specif=
ic to the</div>
<div>logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more</di=
v>
<div>about</div>
<div>the</div>
<div>included data in most cases.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the</di=
v>
</blockquote>
<div>included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating</=
div>
<div>on</div>
<div>the</div>
<div>report as a whole.&nbsp;&nbsp;Extensions related to impact would be on=
e level</div>
<div>higher</div>
<div>(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData</div>
<div>extension</div>
<div>point.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think</d=
iv>
<div>that</div>
</blockquote>
<div>would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in<=
/div>
<div>the</div>
<div>Method class.&nbsp;&nbsp;He did ask about non-XML.&nbsp;&nbsp;RecordIt=
em or</div>
<div>AdditionalData</div>
<div>do</div>
<div>allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI</div>
<div>draft</div>
<div>handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come</div=
>
<div>directly</div>
<div>off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes</=
div>
<div>sense</div>
<div>from a logical standpoint.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As for my question, it was two-fold.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the</div=
>
<div>various</div>
</blockquote>
<div>indicators they share.&nbsp;&nbsp;If we are extending to embed other s=
chemas</div>
<div>that</div>
<div>include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an</div>
<div>attribute</div>
<div>to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?&nbsp;&nbsp;=
Is this</div>
<div>enough</div>
<div>to make the connections or is something else else needed?&nbsp;&nbsp;W=
e could</div>
<div>add</div>
<div>something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then</div>
<div>correlate</div>
<div>to</div>
<div>the reference or GUID identifiers.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are</div=
>
<div>not</div>
<div>in</div>
</blockquote>
<div>the base schema that may be related or have language with &quot;and&qu=
ot; &quot;or&quot;</div>
<div>to</div>
<div>specify the relationships.&nbsp;&nbsp;In some cases, you will want to =
group</div>
<div>these</div>
<div>indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in</div=
>
<div>multiple</div>
<div>places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data</div>
<div>format.&nbsp;&nbsp;If</div>
<div>we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,</=
div>
<div>should</div>
<div>we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData</div=
>
<div>class</div>
<div>AdditionalData extension point?&nbsp;&nbsp;Opinions are needed here...=
.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared</d=
iv>
</blockquote>
<div>indictors into the base IODEF document.&nbsp;&nbsp;We could have a cat=
ch-all</div>
<div>class</div>
<div>that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or</d=
iv>
<div>we</div>
<div>could</div>
<div>continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and<=
/div>
<div>then</div>
<div>have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.&nbsp;&nbsp;I=
 think I</div>
<div>like</div>
<div>the latter approach.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
<div>________________________________________</div>
<div>From: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">
mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ht=
tp://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bo=
unces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of C.</div>
<div>Henry</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Adams &amp; BIE [<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://=
us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@=
yahoo.com</a>]</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM</div>
<div>To: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">
mile@ietf.org</a></div>
<div>Cc: C. Henry Adams</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greetings Everyone,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :</div>
</blockquote>
<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</=
div>
<div>--------</div>
<div>--------------------------</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning</di=
v>
<div>of</div>
<div>information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the</di=
v>
<div>SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it</d=
iv>
<div>could</div>
</blockquote>
<div>be</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>conveyed without using SCI draft.</div>
<div>For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey</d=
iv>
<div>the indicators.</div>
<div>We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact</div=
>
<div>class,</div>
</blockquote>
<div>if</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>needed.</div>
</blockquote>
<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</=
div>
<div>--------</div>
<div>--------------------------</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In doing so he pointed out the &quot;Impact Class&quot;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Whereas, Kathleen stated,</div>
</blockquote>
<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</=
div>
<div>--------</div>
<div>-------------------------</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with</di=
v>
</blockquote>
<div>relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so</di=
v>
<div>that's</div>
<div>why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better<=
/div>
<div>locations or a specific area within the EventData.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul Stoecker had suggested a &quot;Detection&quot; class as a conside=
ration.</div>
</blockquote>
<div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</=
div>
<div>--------</div>
<div>------------------------</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the</div=
>
</blockquote>
<div>EventData Class.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass</div=
>
</blockquote>
<div>combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify<=
/div>
<div>this</div>
<div>issue?</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C. Henry Adams</div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Di=
rect Email)</div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediag=
roup.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the</div>
<div>original</div>
</blockquote>
<div>recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution</div>
<div>within</div>
<div>the</div>
<div>recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further</div=
>
<div>dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.</div>
<blockquote id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D=
"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>_______________________________________________</div>
<div>mile mailing list</div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/mile">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a></div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________</div>
<div>mile mailing list</div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a></div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/mile">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________</div>
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To: "'C. Henry Adams & BIE'" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 11:49:01 -0500
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>From a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work for =
the people who are going to receive this data if we support both numeric =
and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people wanting to =
search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we allow both data =
types then everyone will need to have a mapping of some sort. I have a =
field for confidence in my threat tracking database. Having both a =
numeric score and alpha characters / words creates issues when trying to =
interact with the data. I agree that we need to support both however I =
don=E2=80=99t think both should be in the same field. I would much =
rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if we are going to support =
2 different data types.=20

=20

This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere. Ideally =
in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed as  some =
form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.  Currently =
there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.=20

=20

Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)

Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the =
set should be in the set)

Campaign (how confident are you that all Indicator_Sets are part of this =
campaign)

Threat Actor (how confident are you that the Campaign is attributed to =
this Threat Actor)

Threat Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT, =
Crimeware, other)

=20

The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first 2 =
things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive priority. =
 Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece of =
information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but I wanted =
to show where Confidence could be used.=20

=20

Thanks,



--Chris

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
C. Henry Adams & BIE
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20


Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of the =
Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a simplified =
schema as such below:

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>

( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  =
Urgent, 5 =3D Imminent )

Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated =
definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the analysis.   =



Thanks,
C. Henry Adams


I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low, =
medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will want =
to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or decreasing.  If =
we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot express what is needed =
to show confidence is trending up on the data being exchanged about the =
event.

=20

Kathleen included the following in a previous message.

=20

<Confidence rating=3D"low"/>

=20

Vs:

=20

<Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>

=20

I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded to =
since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is indeed =
subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate confidence =
index that the sender is trying to convey.

=20

Kent Landfield

McAfee | An Intel Company
Direct: +1.972.963.7096=20
Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
Web:  <http://www.mcafee.com/> www.mcafee.com

=20

From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djohn.banghart@nist.gov> =
>
Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com> =
>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> >, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch> =
>
Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org> >
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Paul,

=20

I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be reduced

within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization of =
indicators

and response between tightly connected sharing partners might require a

more specific level of detail, particularly during a crisis situation.

=20

>From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for additional

granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as preferred for

broad interoperability.

=20

-John

=20

On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com> > =
wrote:

=20

I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)

=20

Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective

terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that

essentially would say something like:

=20

1-33 =3D Low

34-67=3D Medium

68-100=3DHigh

=20

Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low, Medium,

High...do we really thing that how High something is makes that much of =
a

difference?

=20

This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does Not

Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High

Meets...your

bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other Meets got

;-)

=20

Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that

confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why =
use

numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.

=20

=20

Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.

SMC Lead Content Architect

RSA, The Security Division of EMC

cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> >

wrote:

=20

Hello,

=20

Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The representation

looks a little different for each, here is an example:

=20

<Confidence rating=3D"low"/>

=20

Vs:

=20

<Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>

=20

Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from

more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find

extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the

guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to

specifying how to select ranges.

=20

Any other opinions?

=20

Thanks,

Kathleen

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Stoecker, Paul

Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM

To: Brian Trammell

Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium, =
and

Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate against

the schema.

=20

Sent from my iPhone

=20

On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell" <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch> =
>

wrote:

=20

Hi, Kathleen, all,

=20

I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build

interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.

(Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean

"we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports

according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had

assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I

think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and rigorous

than it needs to be.)

=20

Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably

measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in

many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, however

educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own scales such

that each value generally means the same thing in each report. Across

teams, I don't know.

=20

On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated

guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating a

response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,

though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.

=20

If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I

agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note

that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high,

unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the

users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning "yes" and 0

meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is purely

coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent" in 5070-bis.

=20

Best regards,

=20

Brian (as contributor)

=20

=20

On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"

<kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> > wrote:

=20

Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can

change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence

rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for

anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various markers

that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating the markers

meaning.

=20

I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more

helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned

from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The

scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective element

to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary from

entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to consider

who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to

your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on this.

=20

Thanks,

Kathleen

=20

From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> ]

Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM

To: MILE IETF

Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

=20

Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital

point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears

that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization to

be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.

=20

Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of

urgency.

( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  =
Urgent,

5 =3D Imminent )

=20

Thanks,

C. Henry Adams

=20

=20

=20

I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence

the

way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me

an IoC

with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a

scale of

1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability

to

describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly

when we

store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are

numeric

as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very problematic.

=20

At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly

recommend

that we revisit this at some point.

=20

Thanks,

=20

--Chris

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Moriarty, Kathleen

Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM

To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;

'MILE

IETF'

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

Hi Chris & Take,

=20

I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema

allows for

you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and

high.

Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.

If

people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful

to have

guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.

=20

I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches,

so

we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is

nice to

keep in flexible options where we can.

=20

Thank you,

Kathleen

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Harrington, Christopher

Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM

To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE

IETF'

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of

indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP

addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have

separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs

=20

My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break

it

down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on

scoring,

rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand

low/med/high

without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the

level.

=20

Low - I am not sure

Medium - I am reasonably sure

High - I am very sure

=20

=20

Thanks,

=20

--Chris

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go=
.jp> ]

Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM

To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE

IETF'

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to

deal

with large sets of indicators.

Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be

omitted

if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.

=20

Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence

attribute

for the reason Chris kindly described.

I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?

For

instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",

etc?

=20

Thank you.

Take

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@em=
c.com> ]

Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM

To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE

IETF'

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have

seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:

=20

Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor

=20

Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute

would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect

science by any means.

=20

Thanks,

=20

--Chris

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Moriarty, Kathleen

Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM

To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE

IETF'

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

Hi Take & others,

=20

Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a

few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll

provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view

point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that

could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the

solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be

better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go=
.jp> ]

Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM

To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;

'MILE

IETF'

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

I like this discussion.

I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside

the IOC-related classes.

=20

KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that

should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same

class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you

say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.

The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get

into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could

also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that

could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of

indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I

agree it doesn't make as much sense.

=20

What do others think?

=20

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not

fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for

these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?

(more details

on

this in my first message).

=20

If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event

record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the

XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.

=20

KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into

guidance

in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?

=20

=20

For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.

KMM: Sounds good, thanks!

=20

I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of

the indicator_set_id.

I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids

and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any

other way to express these groupings.

For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.

In

this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?

=20

KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or

subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this

happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of

indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it

could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and

relationships

in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it

into

the current

structure.

If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some

options, that would be appreciated!

=20

Thank you,

Kathleen

=20

I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though

I

think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have

mis-understood some points.

=20

By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI

classes'

attributes so that they can be correlated with another information

as

well.

=20

Thanks

Take

=20

=20

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>  =
[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> ] =
On Behalf

Of Harrington, Christopher

Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM

To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a

logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.

If

I give you

2

registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of

compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would

have the same group ID since they are related.

=20

Thanks,

--Chris

=20

From: Stoecker, Paul

Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM

To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?

This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the

same group ID.

Would this resolve the issue?

=20

It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)

class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them

into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go

together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing

from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the

indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared

Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a

good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them

as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something

complicated like STIX.

=20

Paul

=20

=20

Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.

SMC Lead Content Architect

RSA, The Security Division of EMC

cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>=20

=20

=20

From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> >

Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM

To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@em=
c.com> >, MILE

IETF <mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org> >

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Hi Chris,

=20

I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.

=20

The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to

the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including

indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to

'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for

sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like

indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes

back in July, both for guidance and for

format

updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least

some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at

least a proposed solution.

=20

As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between

sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that

could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the

July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add

new category attribute values for the System class that would connect

the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the

concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list

multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had

suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would

help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an

AttackType

(FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader

term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute

values

like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added

context

so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.

=20

I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of

indicators,

add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect

indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of

indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the

connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared

into the base IODEF.

=20

Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and

hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help

Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a

class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in

RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?

I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we

could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure

for

other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System

class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at the

more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an

indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Maybe

we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions on

this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas

that may work better.

=20

We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent

forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values

or something else.

=20

Thank you!

Kathleen

=20

From: Harrington, Christopher

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM

To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the

Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In

that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to

show are

related:

=20

Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same

threat:

       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that

the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a

compromise.

=20

Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same

threat:

       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If

either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will

not

be

present.

=20

The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario

where

both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that

logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send

multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.

=20

The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different

indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to

send both the

MD5

and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the

IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we

use

a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher

level

grouping.

=20

Thoughts?

=20

Thanks,

=20

--Chris

=20

Christopher Harrington

Consulting Security Engineer

GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives

174 Middlesex Turnpike

Bedford, MA 01730

781-515-5862 (work)

603-583-1585 (cell)

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>  =
[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> ] =
On Behalf

Of Moriarty, Kathleen

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM

To: MILE IETF

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

All -

=20

I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from

the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message

and additionally in Paul's message.

=20

Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine

automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation

to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.

=20

Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from

context information that may also include IP address or other data

that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to

connect

sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability

to

have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,

as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded

schemas.

=20

If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say

'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to

mark

who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing

when it is not permitted or handle that separately?

=20

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit

into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off

of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on

this in my first message).

=20

Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical

solution to have this machine automatable.

=20

Thank you,

Kathleen

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>  =
[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> ] =
On Behalf

Of C.

Henry Adams & BIE

Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM

To: MILE IETF

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran

across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a

peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking

the IP Address to your computer?"

=20

I replied, "I don't know, how?"

=20

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is

connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL

=20

Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder

searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster

or

let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to

communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in

Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the

great

minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize

reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their

pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar

devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that

makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or

cutting it off (figuratively speaking).

=20

Just a visionary thought.

=20

C. Henry Adams

chenryadams@biemediagroup.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup=
.com>=20

http://biemediagroup.com

=20

=20

The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the

original recipient. This information is granted for limited

distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning

purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is

prohibited.

=20

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org> > =
wrote:

=20

From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org> >

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> >

Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with

DNS

SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?

=20

Yours Faithfully,

=20

Dave Misell MSc CISSP

SilentCircle  dsm

07710 380044

david.misell@bcs.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org>=20

=20

=20

On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE

<chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> >

wrote:

=20

Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way

was

closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,

"consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds

in some instances."

=20

However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it

would

be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study

this

Security Art Form in a negative way.

=20

C. Henry Adams

chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>  =
(Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup=
.com>=20

=20

=20

The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the

original

recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution

within

the

recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further

dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

=20

Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM

From:

"Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com> >

To:

"mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org> " =
<mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org> >

I would like to look at this from a slightly different

perspective=C5=A0let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an

incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is

being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my

indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This

means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use

either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one,

even

if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system

which

one I should use as the indicator.

=20

If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would

allow

us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit

to

being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the

monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking

of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML

document and the other data that may be important as I investigate

activity that I have detected off of those indicators.

=20

=20

I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more

flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't

considered is the UID portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?  How

is

the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?

=20

Regards,

=20

Paul

=20

=20

=20

Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.

SMC Lead Content Architect

RSA, The Security Division of EMC

cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>=20

=20

--- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> >

wrote:

=20

From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> >

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> >

Cc: mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>=20

Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM

=20

Greetings Kathleen,

=20

Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the

many

avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you

share

a

few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

----------------------------------------------

"we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now

in

IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via

SCI."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

---------------------------------------------

=20

You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I

wanted to

protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your

logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what

appears

to

be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.

=20

=20

=20

C. Henry Adams

chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>  =
(Direct Email)

chenryadams@biemediagroup.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup=
.com>=20

=20

The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the

original

recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution

within

the

recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further

dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

=20

--- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> >

wrote:

=20

From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> >

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
>, "mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org> "

<mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org> >

Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM

=20

Hello C. Henry & others,

=20

Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in

this

email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more

once

RFC5070-bis is actively edited).

=20

The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for

non-XML

extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the

logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more

about

the

included data in most cases.

=20

The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the

included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating

on

the

report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level

higher

(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData

extension

point.

=20

Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think

that

would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in

the

Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or

AdditionalData

do

allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI

draft

handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come

directly

off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes

sense

from a logical standpoint.

=20

As for my question, it was two-fold.

=20

Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the

various

indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas

that

include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an

attribute

to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this

enough

to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could

add

something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then

correlate

to

the reference or GUID identifiers.

=20

Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are

not

in

the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or"

to

specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group

these

indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in

multiple

places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data

format.  If

we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,

should

we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData

class

AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....

=20

A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared

indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all

class

that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or

we

could

continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and

then

have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I

like

the latter approach.

=20

Thank you,

Kathleen

________________________________________

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>  =
[mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> ] =
On Behalf Of C.

Henry

Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> ]

Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM

To: mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>=20

Cc: C. Henry Adams

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Greetings Everyone,

=20

Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :

--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

--------------------------

1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning

of

information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the

SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.

=20

2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it

could

be

conveyed without using SCI draft.

For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey

the indicators.

We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact

class,

if

needed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

--------------------------

=20

In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"

=20

Whereas, Kathleen stated,

--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

-------------------------

For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with

relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so

that's

why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better

locations or a specific area within the EventData.

=20

Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

------------------------

=20

Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the

EventData Class.

=20

Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass

combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify

this

issue?

=20

=20

C. Henry Adams

chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>  =
(Direct Email)

chenryadams@biemediagroup.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup=
.com>=20

=20

=20

The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the

original

recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution

within

the

recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further

dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

_______________________________________________

mile mailing list

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>From a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work =
for the people who are going to receive this data if we support both =
numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people =
wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we allow =
both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of some sort. =
I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking database. Having =
both a numeric score and alpha characters / words creates issues when =
trying to interact with the data. I agree that we need to support both =
however I don=E2=80=99t think both should be in the same field. I would =
much rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if we are going to =
support 2 different data types. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere. =
Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed =
as=C2=A0 some form of attribution is almost always shared with an =
IoC.=C2=A0 Currently there are 5 areas where we=C2=A0 (EMC) uses =
confidence. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid =
IoC)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the =
set should be in the set)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Campaign (how confident are you that all Indicator_Sets are part of =
this campaign)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Threat Actor (how confident are you that the Campaign is attributed =
to this Threat Actor)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Threat Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is =
APT, Crimeware, other)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first =
2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive =
priority. =C2=A0Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a =
vital piece of information for us. =C2=A0Sorry to take us a little off =
the path but I wanted to show where Confidence could be used. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks,<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>--Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 13, =
2013 10:24 AM<br><b>To:</b> MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><div =
id=3Dyiv2128506179><div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Again, I would concur that both a numeric =
and subjective analysis of the Confidence Rating needs to be express, =
but combined in a simplified schema as such below:<br><br>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot; Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;1LL&lt;/&gt; .... =
etc.<br><br>&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot; =
Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;2P&lt;/&gt;<br><br>&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot; =
Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;3AC&lt;/&gt;<br><br>&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot; =
Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;4U&lt;/&gt;<br><br>&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot; =
Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;5I&lt;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>( i.e.&nbsp;&nbsp;1 =3D Less Likely,&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 =3D =
Probable,&nbsp;&nbsp;3 =3D A Concern,&nbsp;&nbsp;4 =
=3D&nbsp;&nbsp;Urgent, 5 =3D Imminent )<br><br>Here's my point, perhaps =
a set of numeric related or associated definitions can lower the =
propagation of error regarding the analysis.&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Thanks,<br>C. Henry =
Adams<br><br><br>I agree that what we really need is both. &nbsp;In most =
situations a low, medium and high may be acceptable but there are times =
when we will want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing =
or decreasing. &nbsp;If we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot =
express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the data =
being exchanged about the event.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen included the following in a previous =
message.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot;low&quot;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>Vs:<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot;numeric&quot;&gt;85&lt;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I really think we need to include both capabilities as =
John alluded to since confidence is not a three tiered item but =
something that is indeed subjective and we need a means to show a =
reasonably accurate confidence index that the sender is trying to =
convey.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#606A71'>=
Kent Landfield</span></strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#606A71'>=
<br><br><strong><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>McAfee =
| An Intel Company</span></strong><br><span =
class=3Dyiv2128506179apple-style-span>Direct: =
+1.972.963.7096&nbsp;</span><br><span =
class=3Dyiv2128506179apple-style-span>Mobile: =
+1.817.637.8026</span><br><strong><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Web:&nbsp;</span></strong><spa=
n class=3Dyiv2128506179apple-style-span><a =
href=3D"http://www.mcafee.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:#606A71'>www.mcafee.com</span></a></span></span><o:p></o:p=
></p></div></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>From: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>&lt;Banghart&gt;, John Banghart &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djohn.banghart@nist=
.gov" target=3D"_blank">john.banghart@nist.gov</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: =
</b>Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;Stoecker, =
Paul&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.=
com" target=3D"_blank">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;, Kathleen Moriarty =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;, Brian =
Trammell &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.et=
hz.ch" target=3D"_blank">trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: =
</b>&quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, MILE IETF &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be =
reduced<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>within communities =
that interact frequently.&nbsp;&nbsp;Prioritization of =
indicators<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>and response =
between tightly connected sharing partners might require =
a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>more specific level of =
detail, particularly during a crisis =
situation.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From that perspective, I think the guidance should =
allow for additional<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>granularity, while stressing the &quot;high, medium, =
low&quot; as preferred for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>broad interoperability.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-John<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, &quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.=
com" target=3D"_blank">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I may have been too succinct in my response =
;-)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should =
use subjective<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>terms:&nbsp;&nbsp;Low, Medium, High.&nbsp;&nbsp;Having =
a numeric scale with a map that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>essentially would say something =
like:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>1-33 =3D Low<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>34-67=3D Medium<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>68-100=3DHigh<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Is just a more complicated way of saying that =
something is Low, Medium,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>High...do we really thing that how High something is =
makes that much of a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>difference?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>This is like when you get your Performance review =
where it is Does Not<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Meet, =
Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a =
High<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Meets...your<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all =
the other Meets got<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>;-)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I =
would argue that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut =
feeling, so why use<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just =
fine.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>SMC Lead Content Architect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RSA, The Security Division of =
EMC<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>cell: 302.379.3375 | =
e: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, &quot;Moriarty, Kathleen&quot; =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" =
target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hello,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Both approaches will validate in the current =
schema.&nbsp;&nbsp;The representation<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>looks a little different for each, here is an =
example:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot;low&quot;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Vs:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot;numeric&quot;&gt;85&lt;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Searching capability is a great point, =
agreed.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like to hear from<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>more people to make sure we don't lose a capability =
that others find<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>extremely =
useful (need to gauge that).&nbsp;&nbsp;Other options is that =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>guidance can also =
discourage the use of the numeric in addition =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>specifying how to =
select ranges.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Any other opinions?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Stoecker, Paul<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 =
AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Brian =
Trammell<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Cc: Moriarty, =
Kathleen; C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE; MILE =
IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 =
values:&nbsp;&nbsp;High, Medium, and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Low?&nbsp;&nbsp;Any other value means that the =
Document will mot validate against<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the schema.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, &quot;Brian =
Trammell&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.et=
hz.ch" =
target=3D"_blank">trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi, Kathleen, all,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to =
build<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>interoperable =
numeric scales for assessment is a very hard =
problem.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>(Were I charged =
with defining such a scale, the value &quot;70&quot; would =
mean<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;we compared =
this incident report to N past similar incident =
reports<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>according to =
similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports =
had<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>assessed impacts =
within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- =
I<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>think for most =
applications this is vastly more difficult and =
rigorous<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>than it needs to =
be.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some =
actual, repeatably<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I =
suspect in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>many/most/all =
cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, =
however<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>educated.&nbsp;&nbsp;Each team will probably naturally =
tune its own scales such<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that each value generally means the same thing in each =
report. Across<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>teams, I =
don't know.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On the other hand, Assessments are by their very =
nature educated<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>guesses, =
anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating =
a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>response based on the =
assessment confidence. Chris has a good =
point,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>though -- it makes =
searching difficult and sorting kind of =
pointless.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If we've seen a general trend toward &quot;0 =3D 0%, =
100 =3D 100%&quot;, then I<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>agree, we should put that in the guidance document =
(along with a note<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>that =
0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to =
high,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>unless we want to do =
it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>users of this field =
use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning &quot;yes&quot; and =
0<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>meaning &quot;any =
resemblance these values may have to actual fact is =
purely<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>coincidental&quot;, =
then let's consider renaming it &quot;percent&quot; in =
5070-bis.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Brian (as contributor)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, &quot;Moriarty, =
Kathleen&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting =
point.&nbsp;&nbsp;We can<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>change it if it needs to be changed.&nbsp;&nbsp;The =
value is for a confidence<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>rating on the indicators shared.&nbsp;&nbsp;The =
definitions may be helpful for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>anyone who wants to work on this =
discussion.&nbsp;&nbsp;IODEF has various =
markers<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>that can be used =
in a complimentary way without conflating the =
markers<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>meaning.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
think some people using IODEF find the numerical values =
more<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>helpful, and it would =
be good to understand what people have =
learned<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>from using the =
current structure (what works/does not =
work).&nbsp;&nbsp;The<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>scales I have seen are 0-100.&nbsp;&nbsp;There is of =
course a subjective element<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and =
it may vary from<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>entity to =
entity.&nbsp;&nbsp;With this type of rating you may need to =
consider<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>who it came from =
and how they scored the confidence rating to map =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>your own =
rating.&nbsp;&nbsp;It would be good to hear more thoughts on =
this.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: MILE =
IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Cc: Moriarty, =
Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, =
Paul<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris =
made a vital<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>point.&nbsp;&nbsp;Different Confidence levels will =
cause confusion.&nbsp;&nbsp;It appears<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that there maybe a need for some type of simplified =
standardization to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>be =
established between all Sharing Groups in this =
regard.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should =
express levels of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>urgency.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>( i.e.&nbsp;&nbsp;1 =3D Less Likely,&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 =3D =
Probable,&nbsp;&nbsp;3 =3D A Concern,&nbsp;&nbsp;4 =
=3D&nbsp;&nbsp;Urgent,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>5 =
=3D Imminent )<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>C. Henry Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using =
Confidence<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>way =
it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends =
me<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>an =
IoC<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>with a score of 70, =
what does that mean to me? What if I am using =
a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>scale =
of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>1 to 4 and someone else =
is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>describe something with a consistent language. It =
really gets ugly<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>when =
we<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>store IoC from multiple =
sources. I have confidence values that are<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>numeric<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>as well as text.&nbsp;&nbsp;Makes searching / sorting =
very problematic.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>At this point we have to roll with what we have. I =
would strongly<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recommend<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that we revisit this at some =
point.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--Chris<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Moriarty, Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 =
AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Harrington, =
Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, =
Paul;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>'MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IETF'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Chris &amp; Take,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I'll just focus on the confidence =
scoring.&nbsp;&nbsp;Right now, the schema<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>allows for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of =
low, medium, and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>high.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Different sharing groups can decide how they want to =
share the data.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>people were to use the numerical values, I agree it =
would be helpful<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>to =
have<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>guidance.&nbsp;&nbsp;This could go in the IODE =
guidance document.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
have seen examples of current users that use each of the =
approaches,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>so<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>we'll =
need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it =
is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>nice =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>keep in flexible =
options where we can.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Harrington, =
Christopher<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, =
February 12, 2013 9:22 AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, =
Paul; 'MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IETF'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive =
the use of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. =
If I sent 3 IP<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>addresses =
that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would =
have<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>separate =
indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 =
IPs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I =
think if we break<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>it<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>down =
to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance =
on<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>scoring,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>rating, etc. I think most people should be able to =
understand<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>low/med/high<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>without having to have a mathematical method for =
arriving at the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>level.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Low - I am not sure<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Medium - I am reasonably =
sure<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>High - I am very =
sure<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--Chris<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Takeshi Takahashi [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@=
nict.go.jp" =
target=3D"_blank">mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>]<o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 =
AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Harrington, =
Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; =
'MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IETF'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful =
when we need to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>deal<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>with large sets of =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Since =
indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could =
be<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>omitted<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>if we need to deal with only small number of =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the =
confidence<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>attribute<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>for the reason Chris kindly =
described.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I would like to =
hear a bit more on this: is it going to be =
numerical?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>instance, 1 means &quot;no confidence&quot; while 5 =
means &quot;strong confidence&quot;,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>etc?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Take<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Harrington, Christopher [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrin=
gton@emc.com" =
target=3D"_blank">mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 =
AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; =
Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IETF'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>With respect to tying things back to threat actors, =
from what I have<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>seen and =
use this is a generally accepted grouping:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Indicator --&gt; Indictor Set --&gt; Campaign --&gt; =
Threat Actor<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a =
&quot;Confidence&quot; attribute<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>would be beneficial as making those associations is =
not a perfect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>science by =
any means.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--Chris<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Moriarty, Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Takeshi Takahashi; =
Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; =
'MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IETF'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Take &amp; others,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this =
with Chris and a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>few =
others on their use cases and would like more =
opinions.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'll<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>provide an option below from what we have discussed =
from a CIRC view<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>point.&nbsp;&nbsp;We are also wondering how to also =
provide logic in IODEF that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF =
extensions (the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>solutions =
may all tie together with this discussion - or there may =
be<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>better/more elegant =
solutions others would like to propose).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Takeshi Takahashi [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@=
nict.go.jp" =
target=3D"_blank">mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>]<o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Harrington, =
Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, =
Kathleen;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>'MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IETF'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I like this discussion.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator =
identifiers inside<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
IOC-related classes.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>KMM: At the class level, we may have several =
indicators listed that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>should be viewed as a set and may have another =
instance of that same<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>class that is a related issue, but a separate =
set.&nbsp;&nbsp;We could as you<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>say, list the indicator IDs connected through the =
reference class.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The set =
IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we =
get<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>into logic and =
relationships between sets or indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;This =
could<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>also be a way to =
connect indicators or sets across XML documents =
that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>could have been =
shared previously.&nbsp;&nbsp;If there are a large number =
of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>indicators in the set, =
then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, =
I<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>agree it doesn't make as =
much sense.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>What do others think?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Then for indicators not included in the base schema =
that may not<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>fit into a =
category in the SCI draft, do we create a place =
for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>these off of SCI or =
right off of the IODE schema in EventData?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>(more =
details<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>on<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this in my first =
message).<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If we could see any indicator of compromise as =
computer event<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>record, we =
could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>XML-based IOCs that =
couldn't fit anywhere else.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>KMM: That sounds like a good idea to =
me.&nbsp;&nbsp;This should go into<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>guidance<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>in the SCI draft.&nbsp;&nbsp;Does anyone else want to =
weigh in?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, =
as suggested.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>KMM: Sounds good, thanks!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about =
the needs of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
indicator_set_id.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
understand we could do some grouping of individual =
indicator_uids<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>and its =
usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have =
any<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>other way to express =
these groupings.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>For =
instance,&nbsp;&nbsp;a Reference class refers to several =
indicadtor_uids.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>In<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't =
it enough?<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of =
indicators or<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>subsequent =
messages that add indicators to existing sets?&nbsp;&nbsp;Would =
this<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>happen?&nbsp;&nbsp;Would it be easier to express =
relationships with sets of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicators in addition to individual =
indicators?&nbsp;&nbsp;By using this, it<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>could give us a unique way to also provide the logic =
and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>relationships<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry =
about adding it<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>into<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
current<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>structure.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If there are better ways to handle that, and others =
can provide some<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>options, =
that would be appreciated!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on =
this. Though<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>think I have read all the emails in the list, I might =
have<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>mis-understood some =
points.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added =
to the SCI<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>classes'<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>attributes so that they can be correlated with another =
information<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>as<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>well.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Take<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On =
Behalf<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Of Harrington, =
Christopher<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, =
February 05, 2013 4:25 AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE =
IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need =
a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>logical and / or =
somewhere to show relationship between =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
give you<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>2<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>registry keys do they both have to be present to be an =
indication of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>compromise =
or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both =
would<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>have the same group =
ID since they are related.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--Chris<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Stoecker, Paul<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; =
Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>What if we added indicator group ID along with the =
indicator_uid?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>This would =
allow you to group indicators that are related into =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>same group =
ID.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Would this resolve the =
issue?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>It is either that or going back to adding a Detection =
(or Indicators)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>class that =
will should be used to take all of the indicators put =
them<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>into one place and =
have the ability to group the ones that go<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>together.&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't mean a place to put =
indicators that are missing<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where =
you put the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>indicators =
that are used for detection and prevention of the =
shared<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Incident.&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't know the answer here, but =
there has got to be a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>good =
way for indicators to be identified and being able to group =
them<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>as Chris has =
suggested without basically recreating =
something<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>complicated like =
STIX.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>SMC Lead Content Architect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RSA, The Security Division of =
EMC<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>cell: 302.379.3375 | =
e: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: &lt;Moriarty&gt;, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" =
target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: &quot;Harrington, =
Christopher&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrin=
gton@emc.com" target=3D"_blank">Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>&gt;, =
MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>IETF &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Chris,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, =
RFC5070-bis.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The list has already said they would like to see =
indicators added to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about =
including<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>indicators and =
sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>'parts of an incident =
or the useful information on an incident for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>sharing purposes.&nbsp;&nbsp;It was written before we =
used terms like<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;With that in mind, Rosella =
proposed a number of changes<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>back in July, both for guidance and =
for<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>format<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>updates.&nbsp;&nbsp;It may help to have the first =
draft try to address at least<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>some of these issues so people can understand the =
problems and at<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>least a =
proposed solution.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>As you point out, we need to be able to show =
relationships between<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>sets =
of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators =
that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>could have a =
relationship to each other within a document.&nbsp;&nbsp;In =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>July presentation, one =
of the questions was to see if we should add<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>new category attribute values for the System class =
that would connect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
list of included indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think we should still keep =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>concept of a Node to a =
single node, but perhaps within System, list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of =
attack.&nbsp;&nbsp;Rosella had<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>suggested pulling forward the &quot;FraudType&quot; =
from RFC5901, this would<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>help solve the issue as NodeRole values would =
compliment an<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>AttackType<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>(FraudType values could be included in AttackType or =
some broader<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>term).&nbsp;&nbsp;It may be better to have the =
FraudTypes, plus attribute<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>values<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>like &quot;C2-server&quot;, =
&quot;sinkhole&quot;,&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;MalwareDistribution&quot; for =
added<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>context<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>so you know what to do with the received set of =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets =
of<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicators,<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a =
method to connect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an =
attribute of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>indicator_uid =
(or some other name) with a string value to make =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>connection points, and =
add a few indicators that are commonly =
shared<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>into the base =
IODEF.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Back in July, we talked about adding Registry =
Key/Value pairs and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>hashes =
to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will =
help<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Chris =
below).&nbsp;&nbsp;What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as =
a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>class off of RecordData, =
using a similar structure to what is in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes =
in RecordData?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I think if =
we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, =
we<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>could connect a set =
within that structure and repeat the =
structure<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>other sets in the same way we would do with Node =
inside of the System<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set =
together.&nbsp;&nbsp;Then at the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, =
IP, etc. use an<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level =
as well?&nbsp;&nbsp;Maybe<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>we want indicator_set at the higher =
level?&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like some opinions on<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this approach.&nbsp;&nbsp;+1 if you agree, suggestions =
if you have other ideas<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that may work better.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators =
to prevent<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>forward sharing =
when not permitted.&nbsp;&nbsp;We may want to use these =
values<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>or something =
else.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Harrington, =
Christopher<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Friday, =
February 01, 2013 12:01 PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE =
IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Watchlist Use Case. A =
bunch of indicators are sent in one message. =
In<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>that message we could =
have groupings of indicators that we need to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>show are<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>related:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Two or more indicators of different type that relate =
to the same<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>threat:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The file hash of =
a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the file uses. Either or both may be present to =
indicate a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>compromise.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to =
the same<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>threat:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 different =
registry values for the same registry key. =
If<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>either value is present =
it is a compromise indicator but both will<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>not<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>be<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>present.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider =
the scenario<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>where<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>both groupings above are part of the same threat. I =
need to show that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>logical =
groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't =
send<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>multiple IODEF =
messages for this from what I remember =
reading.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 =
different<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>indicators that =
represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>send both =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>MD5<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>and =
SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>IOCs are the 2 hash =
values. How do we show they are related? If =
we<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>use<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>a =
unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a =
higher<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>level<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>grouping.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thoughts?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--Chris<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Christopher Harrington<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Consulting Security =
Engineer<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>GSO - Critical =
Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information =
Lives<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>174 Middlesex =
Turnpike<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Bedford, MA =
01730<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>781-515-5862 =
(work)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>603-583-1585 =
(cell)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On =
Behalf<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Of Moriarty, =
Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Friday, =
February 01, 2013 11:28 AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To: MILE IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>All -<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get =
opinions from<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the list on =
options to help solve the problems raised in my =
message<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>and additionally =
in Paul's message.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Interesting point, C. Henry.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our objective =
here is to have machine<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather =
than obfuscation<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>to =
achieve the necessary level of =
confidentiality.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of =
compromise from<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>context =
information that may also include IP address or other =
data<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>that could be =
indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;The question I raised was on how =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>connect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, =
assuming the ability<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>have =
watchlists that could have several sets of indicators =
included,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>as well as to =
connect indicators that may be included in =
embedded<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>schemas.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If we add an attribute on all of the relevant =
indicators, let's say<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>'indicator-uid' how do we mark the =
indicators?&nbsp;&nbsp;Do we use this to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>mark<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>who =
sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward =
sharing<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>when it is not =
permitted or handle that separately?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Then for indicators not included in the base schema =
that may not fit<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>into a =
category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these =
off<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>of SCI or right off of =
the IODE schema in EventData? (more details =
on<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>this in my first =
message).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the =
right technical<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>solution =
to have this machine automatable.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On =
Behalf<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Of =
C.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Henry Adams &amp; =
BIE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Monday, January =
28, 2013 11:25 PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: MILE =
IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp;&nbsp;I =
remember when I first ran<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>across this particular craft, an experienced colleague =
asked me a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>peculiar =
question.&nbsp;&nbsp;He said, &quot; How do you stop someone from =
tracking<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the IP Address to =
your computer?&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
replied, &quot;I don't know, how?&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Then he said, &quot;Cut the dog-gone thing =
off&nbsp;&nbsp;and the modem that it is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>connected- which is constantly on!&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
LOL<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) =
:&nbsp;&nbsp;There is a 1st Responder<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit =
by a Disaster<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>or<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>let's =
just say &quot;Live&quot; Terrorist Situation.&nbsp;&nbsp;He /or She =
needs to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>communication =
back to other Officials that he /or somehow is =
in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Danger.&nbsp;&nbsp;The =
device used to communicate has been captured by =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>great<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>minds of the enemy.&nbsp;&nbsp;It's only a matter of =
time before they utilize<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>reverse engineering to figure out how it =
functions.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, their<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of =
other similar<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>devices to =
attack.&nbsp;&nbsp;Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts =
that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>makes the device =
function properly, saves the day by disguise =
or<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>cutting it off =
(figuratively speaking).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Just a visionary thought.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>C. Henry Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemed=
iagroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"http://biemediagroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank">http://biemediagroup.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The information contained herein is for the exclusive =
use of the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>original =
recipient. This information is granted for =
limited<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for =
planning<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public =
is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>prohibited.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Dave Misell &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.o=
rg" =
target=3D"_blank">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could =
be mirrored with<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>DNS<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>SEC =
a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal =
Id?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Yours Faithfully,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Dave Misell MSc CISSP<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>SilentCircle&nbsp;&nbsp;dsm<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>07710 380044<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.o=
rg" =
target=3D"_blank">david.misell@bcs.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams &amp; =
BIE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in =
a unique way<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>was<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>closely related to what I attempted to express when I =
stated,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;consider to =
a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant =
minds<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>in some =
instances.&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little =
clearer.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, it<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>would<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from =
those who study<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Security Art Form in a negative =
way.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>C. Henry Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email) <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemed=
iagroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The information contained herein is for the exclusive =
use of the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>original<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recipient. This information is granted for limited =
distribution<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>within<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recipient's place of business for planning purposes =
only. Further<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>dissemination, whether private or public is =
prohibited.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I would like to look at this from a slightly =
different<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>perspective=C5=A0let's say I get an XML document that =
tells me about an<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>incident.&nbsp;&nbsp;This document has source IP and =
destination IP that is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>being shared.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, what I don't know is =
which IP address is my<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicator and which is just a contextual piece of =
information.&nbsp;&nbsp;This<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>means that my detection product isn't going to know =
which one to use<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>either, =
because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the =
one,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>even<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>if =
the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my =
system<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>which<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>one I should use as the =
indicator.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, =
it would<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>allow<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>us =
to easily identify indicators from contextual data.&nbsp;&nbsp;I do =
admit<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>being =
biased as I have spent much of my career working on =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>monitoring and =
detection side of these things, so I am just =
thinking<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>of ways to make =
it very clear what the indicators are in the =
XML<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>document and the other =
data that may be important as I investigate<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>activity that I have detected off of those =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get =
more<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>flexibility with the =
indicator_uid.&nbsp;&nbsp;One thing that I =
haven't<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>considered is the =
UID portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that =
UID?&nbsp;&nbsp;How<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
UID created?&nbsp;&nbsp;Are there standards for =
UIDs?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>SMC Lead Content Architect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RSA, The Security Division of =
EMC<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>cell: 302.379.3375 | =
e: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: =
&quot;KathleenMoriarty&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" =
target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Cc: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Greetings Kathleen,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm =
amazed at the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>many<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>avenues you review with this approach at =
once.&nbsp;&nbsp;However,&nbsp;&nbsp;could =
you<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>share<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>few =
advantages and disadvantages to the latter?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>----------------------------------------------<o:p></o:=
p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF =
4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;we could continue to group items in logical =
places as is done now<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>in<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IODEF and then have the extension point for combined =
indicators via<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>SCI.&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>---------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p=
></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF =
4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>You pointed out what you consider to be logical =
places, but if I<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>wanted =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>protect =
information from parties capable of ascertaining it from =
your<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>logical places, =
perhaps we should also consider to a degree =
what<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>appears<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>be =
illogical in brilliant minds in some =
instances.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>C. Henry Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct =
Email)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemed=
iagroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The information contained herein is for the exclusive =
use of the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>original<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recipient. This information is granted for limited =
distribution<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>within<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recipient's place of business for planning purposes =
only. Further<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>dissemination, whether private or public is =
prohibited.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" =
target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
/blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" =
target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: &quot;C. Henry =
Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquot=
e><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 =
AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hello C. Henry &amp; =
others,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for taking a look at this.&nbsp;&nbsp;We have a =
few considerations in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and =
there may be more<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>once<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RFC5070-bis is actively =
edited).<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both =
allow for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>non-XML<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>extensions.&nbsp;&nbsp;Where you place the extensions =
should be specific to the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>logical grouping of the parent elements so you can =
understand more<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>about<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>included data in most =
cases.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The Impact class can be used to provide context =
information on the<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>included data of the report and also can include a =
confidence rating<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>on<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>report as a whole.&nbsp;&nbsp;Extensions related to =
impact would be one level<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>higher<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the =
AdditionalData<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>extension<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>point.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Take asked about including vulnerability information, =
I would think<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of =
the SCI draft in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Method class.&nbsp;&nbsp;He did ask about =
non-XML.&nbsp;&nbsp;RecordItem or<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>AdditionalData<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>do<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>allow =
for non-XML extension points, we could either have the =
SCI<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>handle these as well or have the extensions that are =
non-XML come<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>directly<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according =
to what makes<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>sense<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>from a logical =
standpoint.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>As for my question, it was =
two-fold.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a =
GUID for the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>various<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicators they share.&nbsp;&nbsp;If we are extending =
to embed other schemas<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want =
to add an<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>attribute<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to the various elements in IODEF that could be =
indicators?&nbsp;&nbsp;Is this<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>enough<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to make the connections or is something else else =
needed?&nbsp;&nbsp;We could<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>add<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which =
would then<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>correlate<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
reference or GUID identifiers.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Then the other question was on how to include =
indicators that are<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>not<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>in<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the base schema that may be related or have language =
with &quot;and&quot; &quot;or&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>specify the relationships.&nbsp;&nbsp;In some cases, =
you will want to group<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>these<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indictors in one extension point, where they may fit =
logically in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>multiple<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>places if the relationships did not need to be shown =
in the data<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>format.&nbsp;&nbsp;If<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>we have cases like this where you need more complex =
representations,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>should<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of =
the EventData<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>class<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>AdditionalData extension point?&nbsp;&nbsp;Opinions =
are needed here....<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>A =
few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly =
shared<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indictors into the base IODEF document.&nbsp;&nbsp;We =
could have a catch-all<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>class<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that does this and has an extension point off of it in =
EventData or<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>we<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>could<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>continue to group items in logical places as is done =
now in IODEF and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>then<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think I<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>like<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
latter approach.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>From: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of =
C.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Henry<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Adams &amp; BIE [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 =
AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cc: C. Henry Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Greetings Everyone,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the =
:<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------------------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based =
alert/warning<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>information leakage, it could be an event that are =
conveyed in the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>SCI's =
EventReport class, IMHO.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML =
ones, I guess it<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>could<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>be<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>conveyed without using SCI =
draft.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>For instance, we =
could use Impact class of the base IODEF to =
convey<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>We could for =
instance extend the list of indicators of the =
Impact<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>class,<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>if<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>needed.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------------------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>In doing so he pointed out the &quot;Impact =
Class&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Whereas, Kathleen =
stated,<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquo=
te style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For the discussion below, I was thinking more of =
combined set with<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>relationships that may be included in a single =
extension point, so<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that's<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>why I was thinking about the EventData class, but =
there may be better<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>locations or a specific area within the =
EventData.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul Stoecker had suggested a &quot;Detection&quot; =
class as a consideration.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>------------------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquot=
e style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other =
indicators and the<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>EventData Class.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Is there a possible way to create a new XML class =
which encompass<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF =
classes to simplify<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>issue?<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>C. Henry Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct =
Email)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemed=
iagroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The information contained herein is for the exclusive =
use of the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>original<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recipient. This information is granted for limited =
distribution<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>within<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recipient's place of business for planning purposes =
only. Further<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>dissemination, whether private or public is =
prohibited.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>mile mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>mile mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>mile mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>mile mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>mile mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 14:04:59 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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--_000_F5063677821E3B4F81ACFB7905573F24CEBDF2E4MX15Acorpemccom_--

From Christopher.Harrington@emc.com  Wed Feb 13 11:08:29 2013
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From: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>
To: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 14:08:04 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the =
numbers.  I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we add =
the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However for =
potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.=20

=20

Thanks,



--Chris

=20

From: Moriarty, Kathleen=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

=20

If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs with =
storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just meant for =
the exchange)?  The numbers map to low/med/high =E2=80=93 for db storage =
=E2=80=93 if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, =
adding the 2 additional ones provided.

=20

Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is =
doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both options?

=20

Thank you,

Kathleen

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

>From a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work for =
the people who are going to receive this data if we support both numeric =
and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people wanting to =
search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we allow both data =
types then everyone will need to have a mapping of some sort. I have a =
field for confidence in my threat tracking database. Having both a =
numeric score and alpha characters / words creates issues when trying to =
interact with the data. I agree that we need to support both however I =
don=E2=80=99t think both should be in the same field. I would much =
rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if we are going to support =
2 different data types.=20

=20

This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere. Ideally =
in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed as  some =
form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.  Currently =
there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.=20

=20

Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)

Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the =
set should be in the set)

Campaign (how confident are you that all Indicator_Sets are part of this =
campaign)

Threat Actor (how confident are you that the Campaign is attributed to =
this Threat Actor)

Threat Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT, =
Crimeware, other)

=20

The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first 2 =
things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive priority. =
 Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece of =
information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but I wanted =
to show where Confidence could be used.=20

=20

Thanks,

--Chris

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
C. Henry Adams & BIE
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20


Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of the =
Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a simplified =
schema as such below:

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>

<Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>

( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  =
Urgent, 5 =3D Imminent )

Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated =
definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the analysis.   =



Thanks,
C. Henry Adams


I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low, =
medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will want =
to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or decreasing.  If =
we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot express what is needed =
to show confidence is trending up on the data being exchanged about the =
event.

=20

Kathleen included the following in a previous message.

=20

<Confidence rating=3D"low"/>

=20

Vs:

=20

<Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>

=20

I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded to =
since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is indeed =
subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate confidence =
index that the sender is trying to convey.

=20

Kent Landfield

McAfee | An Intel Company
Direct: +1.972.963.7096=20
Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
Web:  <http://www.mcafee.com/> www.mcafee.com

=20

From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djohn.banghart@nist.gov> =
>
Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com> =
>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> >, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch> =
>
Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org> >
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Paul,

=20

I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be reduced

within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization of =
indicators

and response between tightly connected sharing partners might require a

more specific level of detail, particularly during a crisis situation.

=20

>From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for additional

granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as preferred for

broad interoperability.

=20

-John

=20

On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com> > =
wrote:

=20

I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)

=20

Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective

terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that

essentially would say something like:

=20

1-33 =3D Low

34-67=3D Medium

68-100=3DHigh

=20

Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low, Medium,

High...do we really thing that how High something is makes that much of =
a

difference?

=20

This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does Not

Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High

Meets...your

bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other Meets got

;-)

=20

Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that

confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why =
use

numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.

=20

=20

Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.

SMC Lead Content Architect

RSA, The Security Division of EMC

cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> >

wrote:

=20

Hello,

=20

Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The representation

looks a little different for each, here is an example:

=20

<Confidence rating=3D"low"/>

=20

Vs:

=20

<Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>

=20

Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from

more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find

extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the

guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to

specifying how to select ranges.

=20

Any other opinions?

=20

Thanks,

Kathleen

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Stoecker, Paul

Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM

To: Brian Trammell

Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium, =
and

Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate against

the schema.

=20

Sent from my iPhone

=20

On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell" <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch> =
>

wrote:

=20

Hi, Kathleen, all,

=20

I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build

interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.

(Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean

"we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports

according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had

assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I

think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and rigorous

than it needs to be.)

=20

Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably

measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in

many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, however

educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own scales such

that each value generally means the same thing in each report. Across

teams, I don't know.

=20

On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated

guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating a

response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,

though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.

=20

If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I

agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note

that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high,

unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the

users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning "yes" and 0

meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is purely

coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent" in 5070-bis.

=20

Best regards,

=20

Brian (as contributor)

=20

=20

On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"

<kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> > wrote:

=20

Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can

change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence

rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for

anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various markers

that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating the markers

meaning.

=20

I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more

helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned

from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The

scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective element

to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary from

entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to consider

who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to

your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on this.

=20

Thanks,

Kathleen

=20

From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> ]

Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM

To: MILE IETF

Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

=20

Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital

point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears

that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization to

be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.

=20

Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of

urgency.

( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  =
Urgent,

5 =3D Imminent )

=20

Thanks,

C. Henry Adams

=20

=20

=20

I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence

the

way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me

an IoC

with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a

scale of

1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability

to

describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly

when we

store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are

numeric

as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very problematic.

=20

At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly

recommend

that we revisit this at some point.

=20

Thanks,

=20

--Chris

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Moriarty, Kathleen

Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM

To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;

'MILE

IETF'

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

Hi Chris & Take,

=20

I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema

allows for

you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and

high.

Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.

If

people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful

to have

guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.

=20

I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches,

so

we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is

nice to

keep in flexible options where we can.

=20

Thank you,

Kathleen

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Harrington, Christopher

Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM

To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE

IETF'

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of

indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP

addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have

separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs

=20

My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break

it

down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on

scoring,

rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand

low/med/high

without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the

level.

=20

Low - I am not sure

Medium - I am reasonably sure

High - I am very sure

=20

=20

Thanks,

=20

--Chris

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go=
.jp> ]

Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM

To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE

IETF'

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to

deal

with large sets of indicators.

Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be

omitted

if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.

=20

Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence

attribute

for the reason Chris kindly described.

I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?

For

instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",

etc?

=20

Thank you.

Take

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@em=
c.com> ]

Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM

To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE

IETF'

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have

seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:

=20

Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor

=20

Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute

would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect

science by any means.

=20

Thanks,

=20

--Chris

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Moriarty, Kathleen

Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM

To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE

IETF'

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

Hi Take & others,

=20

Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a

few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll

provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view

point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that

could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the

solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be

better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go=
.jp> ]

Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM

To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;

'MILE

IETF'

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

I like this discussion.

I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside

the IOC-related classes.

=20

KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that

should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same

class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you

say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.

The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get

into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could

also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that

could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of

indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I

agree it doesn't make as much sense.

=20

What do others think?

=20

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not

fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for

these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?

(more details

on

this in my first message).

=20

If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event

record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the

XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.

=20

KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into

guidance

in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?

=20

=20

For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.

KMM: Sounds good, thanks!

=20

I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of

the indicator_set_id.

I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids

and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any

other way to express these groupings.

For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.

In

this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?

=20

KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or

subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this

happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of

indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it

could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and

relationships

in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it

into

the current

structure.

If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some

options, that would be appreciated!

=20

Thank you,

Kathleen

=20

I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though

I

think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have

mis-understood some points.

=20

By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI

classes'

attributes so that they can be correlated with another information

as

well.

=20

Thanks

Take

=20

=20

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>  =
[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> ] =
On Behalf

Of Harrington, Christopher

Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM

To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a

logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.

If

I give you

2

registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of

compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would

have the same group ID since they are related.

=20

Thanks,

--Chris

=20

From: Stoecker, Paul

Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM

To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?

This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the

same group ID.

Would this resolve the issue?

=20

It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)

class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them

into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go

together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing

from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the

indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared

Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a

good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them

as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something

complicated like STIX.

=20

Paul

=20

=20

Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.

SMC Lead Content Architect

RSA, The Security Division of EMC

cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>=20

=20

=20

From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> >

Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM

To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@em=
c.com> >, MILE

IETF <mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org> >

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Hi Chris,

=20

I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.

=20

The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to

the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including

indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to

'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for

sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like

indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes

back in July, both for guidance and for

format

updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least

some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at

least a proposed solution.

=20

As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between

sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that

could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the

July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add

new category attribute values for the System class that would connect

the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the

concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list

multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had

suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would

help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an

AttackType

(FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader

term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute

values

like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added

context

so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.

=20

I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of

indicators,

add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect

indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of

indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the

connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared

into the base IODEF.

=20

Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and

hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help

Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a

class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in

RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?

I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we

could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure

for

other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System

class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at the

more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an

indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Maybe

we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions on

this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas

that may work better.

=20

We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent

forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values

or something else.

=20

Thank you!

Kathleen

=20

From: Harrington, Christopher

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM

To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

=20

I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the

Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In

that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to

show are

related:

=20

Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same

threat:

       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that

the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a

compromise.

=20

Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same

threat:

       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If

either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will

not

be

present.

=20

The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario

where

both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that

logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send

multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.

=20

The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different

indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to

send both the

MD5

and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the

IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we

use

a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher

level

grouping.

=20

Thoughts?

=20

Thanks,

=20

--Chris

=20

Christopher Harrington

Consulting Security Engineer

GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives

174 Middlesex Turnpike

Bedford, MA 01730

781-515-5862 (work)

603-583-1585 (cell)

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>  =
[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> ] =
On Behalf

Of Moriarty, Kathleen

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM

To: MILE IETF

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

All -

=20

I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from

the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message

and additionally in Paul's message.

=20

Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine

automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation

to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.

=20

Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from

context information that may also include IP address or other data

that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to

connect

sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability

to

have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,

as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded

schemas.

=20

If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say

'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to

mark

who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing

when it is not permitted or handle that separately?

=20

Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit

into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off

of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on

this in my first message).

=20

Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical

solution to have this machine automatable.

=20

Thank you,

Kathleen

=20

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>  =
[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> ] =
On Behalf

Of C.

Henry Adams & BIE

Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM

To: MILE IETF

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran

across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a

peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking

the IP Address to your computer?"

=20

I replied, "I don't know, how?"

=20

Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is

connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL

=20

Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder

searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster

or

let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to

communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in

Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the

great

minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize

reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their

pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar

devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that

makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or

cutting it off (figuratively speaking).

=20

Just a visionary thought.

=20

C. Henry Adams

chenryadams@biemediagroup.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup=
.com>=20

http://biemediagroup.com

=20

=20

The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the

original recipient. This information is granted for limited

distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning

purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is

prohibited.

=20

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org> > =
wrote:

=20

From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org> >

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> >

Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with

DNS

SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?

=20

Yours Faithfully,

=20

Dave Misell MSc CISSP

SilentCircle  dsm

07710 380044

david.misell@bcs.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org>=20

=20

=20

On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE

<chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> >

wrote:

=20

Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way

was

closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,

"consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds

in some instances."

=20

However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it

would

be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study

this

Security Art Form in a negative way.

=20

C. Henry Adams

chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>  =
(Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup=
.com>=20

=20

=20

The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the

original

recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution

within

the

recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further

dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

=20

Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM

From:

"Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com> >

To:

"mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org> " =
<mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org> >

I would like to look at this from a slightly different

perspective=C5=A0let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an

incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is

being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my

indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This

means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use

either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one,

even

if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system

which

one I should use as the indicator.

=20

If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would

allow

us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit

to

being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the

monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking

of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML

document and the other data that may be important as I investigate

activity that I have detected off of those indicators.

=20

=20

I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more

flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't

considered is the UID portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that UID?  How

is

the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?

=20

Regards,

=20

Paul

=20

=20

=20

Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.

SMC Lead Content Architect

RSA, The Security Division of EMC

cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>=20

=20

--- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> >

wrote:

=20

From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> >

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> >

Cc: mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>=20

Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM

=20

Greetings Kathleen,

=20

Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the

many

avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you

share

a

few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

----------------------------------------------

"we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now

in

IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via

SCI."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

---------------------------------------------

=20

You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I

wanted to

protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your

logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what

appears

to

be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.

=20

=20

=20

C. Henry Adams

chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>  =
(Direct Email)

chenryadams@biemediagroup.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup=
.com>=20

=20

The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the

original

recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution

within

the

recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further

dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

=20

--- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> >

wrote:

=20

From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com=
> >

Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs

To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> =
>, "mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org> "

<mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org> >

Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM

=20

Hello C. Henry & others,

=20

Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in

this

email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more

once

RFC5070-bis is actively edited).

=20

The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for

non-XML

extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the

logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more

about

the

included data in most cases.

=20

The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the

included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating

on

the

report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level

higher

(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData

extension

point.

=20

Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think

that

would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in

the

Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or

AdditionalData

do

allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI

draft

handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come

directly

off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes

sense

from a logical standpoint.

=20

As for my question, it was two-fold.

=20

Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the

various

indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas

that

include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an

attribute

to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this

enough

to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could

add

something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then

correlate

to

the reference or GUID identifiers.

=20

Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are

not

in

the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or"

to

specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group

these

indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in

multiple

places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data

format.  If

we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,

should

we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData

class

AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....

=20

A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared

indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all

class

that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or

we

could

continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and

then

have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I

like

the latter approach.

=20

Thank you,

Kathleen

________________________________________

From: mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>  =
[mile-bounces@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> ] =
On Behalf Of C.

Henry

Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> ]

Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM

To: mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>=20

Cc: C. Henry Adams

Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

=20

Greetings Everyone,

=20

Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :

--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

--------------------------

1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning

of

information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the

SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.

=20

2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it

could

be

conveyed without using SCI draft.

For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey

the indicators.

We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact

class,

if

needed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

--------------------------

=20

In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"

=20

Whereas, Kathleen stated,

--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

-------------------------

For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with

relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so

that's

why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better

locations or a specific area within the EventData.

=20

Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

------------------------

=20

Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the

EventData Class.

=20

Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass

combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify

this

issue?

=20

=20

C. Henry Adams

chatlga2000@yahoo.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>  =
(Direct Email)

chenryadams@biemediagroup.com =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup=
.com>=20

=20

=20

The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the

original

recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution

within

the

recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further

dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.

_______________________________________________

mile mailing list

mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>=20

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

=20

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mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>=20

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

=20

_______________________________________________

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mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>=20

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

=20

=20

_______________________________________________

mile mailing list

mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>=20

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

=20

_______________________________________________

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mile@ietf.org =
<http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>=20

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

=20


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--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the =
numbers.=C2=A0 I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we =
add the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However =
for potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks,<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>--Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Moriarty, Kathleen <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> =
RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs =
with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just meant =
for the exchange)?&nbsp; The numbers map to low/med/high =E2=80=93 for =
db storage =E2=80=93 if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent =
value, adding the 2 additional ones provided.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is =
doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both =
options?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.=
org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Harrington, Christopher<br><b>Sent:</b> =
Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'C. Henry Adams =
&amp; BIE'; MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>From a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work =
for the people who are going to receive this data if we support both =
numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people =
wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we allow =
both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of some sort. =
I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking database. Having =
both a numeric score and alpha characters / words creates issues when =
trying to interact with the data. I agree that we need to support both =
however I don=E2=80=99t think both should be in the same field. I would =
much rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if we are going to =
support 2 different data types. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere. =
Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed =
as&nbsp; some form of attribution is almost always shared with an =
IoC.&nbsp; Currently there are 5 areas where we&nbsp; (EMC) uses =
confidence. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid =
IoC)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the =
set should be in the set)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Campaign (how confident are you that all Indicator_Sets are part of =
this campaign)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Threat Actor (how confident are you that the Campaign is attributed =
to this Threat Actor)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Threat Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is =
APT, Crimeware, other)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first =
2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive =
priority. &nbsp;Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a =
vital piece of information for us. &nbsp;Sorry to take us a little off =
the path but I wanted to show where Confidence could be used. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>--Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, =
February 13, 2013 10:24 AM<br><b>To:</b> MILE IETF<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><div><div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Again, I would concur =
that both a numeric and subjective analysis of the Confidence Rating =
needs to be express, but combined in a simplified schema as such =
below:<br><br>&lt;Confidence rating=3D&quot; =
Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;1LL&lt;/&gt; .... etc.<br><br>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot; Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;2P&lt;/&gt;<br><br>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot; Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;3AC&lt;/&gt;<br><br>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot; Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;4U&lt;/&gt;<br><br>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot; Alphanumeric&quot;&gt;5I&lt;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>( i.e.&nbsp;&nbsp;1 =3D Less Likely,&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 =3D =
Probable,&nbsp;&nbsp;3 =3D A Concern,&nbsp;&nbsp;4 =
=3D&nbsp;&nbsp;Urgent, 5 =3D Imminent )<br><br>Here's my point, perhaps =
a set of numeric related or associated definitions can lower the =
propagation of error regarding the analysis.&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Thanks,<br>C. Henry =
Adams<br><br><br>I agree that what we really need is both. &nbsp;In most =
situations a low, medium and high may be acceptable but there are times =
when we will want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing =
or decreasing. &nbsp;If we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot =
express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the data =
being exchanged about the event.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen included the following in a previous =
message.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot;low&quot;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>Vs:<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Consolas'>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot;numeric&quot;&gt;85&lt;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I really think we need to include both capabilities as =
John alluded to since confidence is not a three tiered item but =
something that is indeed subjective and we need a means to show a =
reasonably accurate confidence index that the sender is trying to =
convey.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#606A71'>=
Kent Landfield</span></strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#606A71'>=
<br><br><strong><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>McAfee =
| An Intel Company</span></strong><br><span =
class=3Dyiv2128506179apple-style-span>Direct: =
+1.972.963.7096&nbsp;</span><br><span =
class=3Dyiv2128506179apple-style-span>Mobile: =
+1.817.637.8026</span><br><strong><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Web:&nbsp;</span></strong><spa=
n class=3Dyiv2128506179apple-style-span><a =
href=3D"http://www.mcafee.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:#606A71'>www.mcafee.com</span></a></span></span><o:p></o:p=
></p></div></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>From: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>&lt;Banghart&gt;, John Banghart &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djohn.banghart@nist=
.gov" target=3D"_blank">john.banghart@nist.gov</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: =
</b>Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;Stoecker, =
Paul&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.=
com" target=3D"_blank">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;, Kathleen Moriarty =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;, Brian =
Trammell &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.et=
hz.ch" target=3D"_blank">trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: =
</b>&quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, MILE IETF &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be =
reduced<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>within communities =
that interact frequently.&nbsp;&nbsp;Prioritization of =
indicators<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>and response =
between tightly connected sharing partners might require =
a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>more specific level of =
detail, particularly during a crisis =
situation.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From that perspective, I think the guidance should =
allow for additional<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>granularity, while stressing the &quot;high, medium, =
low&quot; as preferred for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>broad interoperability.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-John<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, &quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.=
com" target=3D"_blank">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I may have been too succinct in my response =
;-)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should =
use subjective<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>terms:&nbsp;&nbsp;Low, Medium, High.&nbsp;&nbsp;Having =
a numeric scale with a map that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>essentially would say something =
like:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>1-33 =3D Low<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>34-67=3D Medium<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>68-100=3DHigh<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Is just a more complicated way of saying that =
something is Low, Medium,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>High...do we really thing that how High something is =
makes that much of a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>difference?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>This is like when you get your Performance review =
where it is Does Not<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Meet, =
Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a =
High<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Meets...your<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all =
the other Meets got<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>;-)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I =
would argue that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut =
feeling, so why use<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just =
fine.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>SMC Lead Content Architect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RSA, The Security Division of =
EMC<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>cell: 302.379.3375 | =
e: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, &quot;Moriarty, Kathleen&quot; =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" =
target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hello,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Both approaches will validate in the current =
schema.&nbsp;&nbsp;The representation<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>looks a little different for each, here is an =
example:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot;low&quot;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Vs:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;Confidence =
rating=3D&quot;numeric&quot;&gt;85&lt;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Searching capability is a great point, =
agreed.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like to hear from<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>more people to make sure we don't lose a capability =
that others find<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>extremely =
useful (need to gauge that).&nbsp;&nbsp;Other options is that =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>guidance can also =
discourage the use of the numeric in addition =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>specifying how to =
select ranges.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Any other opinions?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Stoecker, Paul<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 =
AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Brian =
Trammell<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Cc: Moriarty, =
Kathleen; C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE; MILE =
IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 =
values:&nbsp;&nbsp;High, Medium, and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Low?&nbsp;&nbsp;Any other value means that the =
Document will mot validate against<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the schema.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, &quot;Brian =
Trammell&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.et=
hz.ch" =
target=3D"_blank">trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi, Kathleen, all,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to =
build<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>interoperable =
numeric scales for assessment is a very hard =
problem.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>(Were I charged =
with defining such a scale, the value &quot;70&quot; would =
mean<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;we compared =
this incident report to N past similar incident =
reports<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>according to =
similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports =
had<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>assessed impacts =
within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- =
I<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>think for most =
applications this is vastly more difficult and =
rigorous<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>than it needs to =
be.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some =
actual, repeatably<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I =
suspect in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>many/most/all =
cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, =
however<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>educated.&nbsp;&nbsp;Each team will probably naturally =
tune its own scales such<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that each value generally means the same thing in each =
report. Across<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>teams, I =
don't know.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On the other hand, Assessments are by their very =
nature educated<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>guesses, =
anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating =
a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>response based on the =
assessment confidence. Chris has a good =
point,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>though -- it makes =
searching difficult and sorting kind of =
pointless.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If we've seen a general trend toward &quot;0 =3D 0%, =
100 =3D 100%&quot;, then I<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>agree, we should put that in the guidance document =
(along with a note<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>that =
0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to =
high,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>unless we want to do =
it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>users of this field =
use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning &quot;yes&quot; and =
0<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>meaning &quot;any =
resemblance these values may have to actual fact is =
purely<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>coincidental&quot;, =
then let's consider renaming it &quot;percent&quot; in =
5070-bis.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Brian (as contributor)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, &quot;Moriarty, =
Kathleen&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting =
point.&nbsp;&nbsp;We can<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>change it if it needs to be changed.&nbsp;&nbsp;The =
value is for a confidence<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>rating on the indicators shared.&nbsp;&nbsp;The =
definitions may be helpful for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>anyone who wants to work on this =
discussion.&nbsp;&nbsp;IODEF has various =
markers<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>that can be used =
in a complimentary way without conflating the =
markers<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>meaning.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
think some people using IODEF find the numerical values =
more<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>helpful, and it would =
be good to understand what people have =
learned<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>from using the =
current structure (what works/does not =
work).&nbsp;&nbsp;The<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>scales I have seen are 0-100.&nbsp;&nbsp;There is of =
course a subjective element<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and =
it may vary from<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>entity to =
entity.&nbsp;&nbsp;With this type of rating you may need to =
consider<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>who it came from =
and how they scored the confidence rating to map =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>your own =
rating.&nbsp;&nbsp;It would be good to hear more thoughts on =
this.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: MILE =
IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Cc: Moriarty, =
Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, =
Paul<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris =
made a vital<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>point.&nbsp;&nbsp;Different Confidence levels will =
cause confusion.&nbsp;&nbsp;It appears<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that there maybe a need for some type of simplified =
standardization to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>be =
established between all Sharing Groups in this =
regard.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should =
express levels of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>urgency.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>( i.e.&nbsp;&nbsp;1 =3D Less Likely,&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 =3D =
Probable,&nbsp;&nbsp;3 =3D A Concern,&nbsp;&nbsp;4 =
=3D&nbsp;&nbsp;Urgent,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>5 =
=3D Imminent )<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>C. Henry Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using =
Confidence<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>way =
it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends =
me<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>an =
IoC<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>with a score of 70, =
what does that mean to me? What if I am using =
a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>scale =
of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>1 to 4 and someone else =
is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>describe something with a consistent language. It =
really gets ugly<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>when =
we<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>store IoC from multiple =
sources. I have confidence values that are<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>numeric<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>as well as text.&nbsp;&nbsp;Makes searching / sorting =
very problematic.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>At this point we have to roll with what we have. I =
would strongly<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recommend<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that we revisit this at some =
point.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--Chris<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Moriarty, Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 =
AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Harrington, =
Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, =
Paul;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>'MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IETF'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Chris &amp; Take,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I'll just focus on the confidence =
scoring.&nbsp;&nbsp;Right now, the schema<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>allows for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of =
low, medium, and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>high.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Different sharing groups can decide how they want to =
share the data.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>people were to use the numerical values, I agree it =
would be helpful<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>to =
have<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>guidance.&nbsp;&nbsp;This could go in the IODE =
guidance document.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
have seen examples of current users that use each of the =
approaches,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>so<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>we'll =
need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it =
is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>nice =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>keep in flexible =
options where we can.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Harrington, =
Christopher<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, =
February 12, 2013 9:22 AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, =
Paul; 'MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IETF'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive =
the use of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. =
If I sent 3 IP<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>addresses =
that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would =
have<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>separate =
indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 =
IPs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I =
think if we break<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>it<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>down =
to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance =
on<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>scoring,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>rating, etc. I think most people should be able to =
understand<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>low/med/high<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>without having to have a mathematical method for =
arriving at the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>level.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Low - I am not sure<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Medium - I am reasonably =
sure<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>High - I am very =
sure<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--Chris<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Takeshi Takahashi [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@=
nict.go.jp" =
target=3D"_blank">mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>]<o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 =
AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Harrington, =
Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; =
'MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IETF'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful =
when we need to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>deal<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>with large sets of =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Since =
indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could =
be<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>omitted<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>if we need to deal with only small number of =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the =
confidence<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>attribute<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>for the reason Chris kindly =
described.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I would like to =
hear a bit more on this: is it going to be =
numerical?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>instance, 1 means &quot;no confidence&quot; while 5 =
means &quot;strong confidence&quot;,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>etc?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Take<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Harrington, Christopher [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrin=
gton@emc.com" =
target=3D"_blank">mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 =
AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; =
Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IETF'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>With respect to tying things back to threat actors, =
from what I have<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>seen and =
use this is a generally accepted grouping:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Indicator --&gt; Indictor Set --&gt; Campaign --&gt; =
Threat Actor<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a =
&quot;Confidence&quot; attribute<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>would be beneficial as making those associations is =
not a perfect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>science by =
any means.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--Chris<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Moriarty, Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Takeshi Takahashi; =
Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; =
'MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IETF'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Take &amp; others,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this =
with Chris and a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>few =
others on their use cases and would like more =
opinions.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'll<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>provide an option below from what we have discussed =
from a CIRC view<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>point.&nbsp;&nbsp;We are also wondering how to also =
provide logic in IODEF that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF =
extensions (the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>solutions =
may all tie together with this discussion - or there may =
be<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>better/more elegant =
solutions others would like to propose).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Takeshi Takahashi [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@=
nict.go.jp" =
target=3D"_blank">mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>]<o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Harrington, =
Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, =
Kathleen;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>'MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IETF'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I like this discussion.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator =
identifiers inside<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
IOC-related classes.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>KMM: At the class level, we may have several =
indicators listed that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>should be viewed as a set and may have another =
instance of that same<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>class that is a related issue, but a separate =
set.&nbsp;&nbsp;We could as you<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>say, list the indicator IDs connected through the =
reference class.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The set =
IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we =
get<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>into logic and =
relationships between sets or indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;This =
could<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>also be a way to =
connect indicators or sets across XML documents =
that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>could have been =
shared previously.&nbsp;&nbsp;If there are a large number =
of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>indicators in the set, =
then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, =
I<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>agree it doesn't make as =
much sense.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>What do others think?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Then for indicators not included in the base schema =
that may not<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>fit into a =
category in the SCI draft, do we create a place =
for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>these off of SCI or =
right off of the IODE schema in EventData?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>(more =
details<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>on<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this in my first =
message).<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If we could see any indicator of compromise as =
computer event<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>record, we =
could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>XML-based IOCs that =
couldn't fit anywhere else.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>KMM: That sounds like a good idea to =
me.&nbsp;&nbsp;This should go into<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>guidance<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>in the SCI draft.&nbsp;&nbsp;Does anyone else want to =
weigh in?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, =
as suggested.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>KMM: Sounds good, thanks!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about =
the needs of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
indicator_set_id.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
understand we could do some grouping of individual =
indicator_uids<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>and its =
usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have =
any<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>other way to express =
these groupings.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>For =
instance,&nbsp;&nbsp;a Reference class refers to several =
indicadtor_uids.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>In<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't =
it enough?<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of =
indicators or<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>subsequent =
messages that add indicators to existing sets?&nbsp;&nbsp;Would =
this<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>happen?&nbsp;&nbsp;Would it be easier to express =
relationships with sets of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicators in addition to individual =
indicators?&nbsp;&nbsp;By using this, it<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>could give us a unique way to also provide the logic =
and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>relationships<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry =
about adding it<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>into<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
current<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>structure.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If there are better ways to handle that, and others =
can provide some<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>options, =
that would be appreciated!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on =
this. Though<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>think I have read all the emails in the list, I might =
have<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>mis-understood some =
points.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added =
to the SCI<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>classes'<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' =
id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>attributes so that they can be correlated with another =
information<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>as<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>well.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Take<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On =
Behalf<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Of Harrington, =
Christopher<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Tuesday, =
February 05, 2013 4:25 AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE =
IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need =
a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>logical and / or =
somewhere to show relationship between =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
give you<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>2<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>registry keys do they both have to be present to be an =
indication of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>compromise =
or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both =
would<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>have the same group =
ID since they are related.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--Chris<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Stoecker, Paul<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; =
Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>What if we added indicator group ID along with the =
indicator_uid?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>This would =
allow you to group indicators that are related into =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>same group =
ID.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Would this resolve the =
issue?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>It is either that or going back to adding a Detection =
(or Indicators)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>class that =
will should be used to take all of the indicators put =
them<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>into one place and =
have the ability to group the ones that go<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>together.&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't mean a place to put =
indicators that are missing<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where =
you put the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>indicators =
that are used for detection and prevention of the =
shared<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Incident.&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't know the answer here, but =
there has got to be a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>good =
way for indicators to be identified and being able to group =
them<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>as Chris has =
suggested without basically recreating =
something<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>complicated like =
STIX.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>SMC Lead Content Architect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RSA, The Security Division of =
EMC<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>cell: 302.379.3375 | =
e: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: &lt;Moriarty&gt;, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" =
target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: &quot;Harrington, =
Christopher&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrin=
gton@emc.com" target=3D"_blank">Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>&gt;, =
MILE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>IETF &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Chris,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, =
RFC5070-bis.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The list has already said they would like to see =
indicators added to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about =
including<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>indicators and =
sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>'parts of an incident =
or the useful information on an incident for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>sharing purposes.&nbsp;&nbsp;It was written before we =
used terms like<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;With that in mind, Rosella =
proposed a number of changes<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>back in July, both for guidance and =
for<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>format<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>updates.&nbsp;&nbsp;It may help to have the first =
draft try to address at least<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>some of these issues so people can understand the =
problems and at<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>least a =
proposed solution.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>As you point out, we need to be able to show =
relationships between<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>sets =
of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators =
that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>could have a =
relationship to each other within a document.&nbsp;&nbsp;In =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>July presentation, one =
of the questions was to see if we should add<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>new category attribute values for the System class =
that would connect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
list of included indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think we should still keep =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>concept of a Node to a =
single node, but perhaps within System, list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of =
attack.&nbsp;&nbsp;Rosella had<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>suggested pulling forward the &quot;FraudType&quot; =
from RFC5901, this would<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>help solve the issue as NodeRole values would =
compliment an<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>AttackType<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>(FraudType values could be included in AttackType or =
some broader<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>term).&nbsp;&nbsp;It may be better to have the =
FraudTypes, plus attribute<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>values<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>like &quot;C2-server&quot;, =
&quot;sinkhole&quot;,&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;MalwareDistribution&quot; for =
added<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>context<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>so you know what to do with the received set of =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets =
of<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicators,<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a =
method to connect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an =
attribute of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>indicator_uid =
(or some other name) with a string value to make =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>connection points, and =
add a few indicators that are commonly =
shared<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>into the base =
IODEF.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Back in July, we talked about adding Registry =
Key/Value pairs and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>hashes =
to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will =
help<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Chris =
below).&nbsp;&nbsp;What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as =
a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>class off of RecordData, =
using a similar structure to what is in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes =
in RecordData?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I think if =
we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, =
we<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>could connect a set =
within that structure and repeat the =
structure<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>other sets in the same way we would do with Node =
inside of the System<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set =
together.&nbsp;&nbsp;Then at the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, =
IP, etc. use an<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level =
as well?&nbsp;&nbsp;Maybe<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>we want indicator_set at the higher =
level?&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like some opinions on<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this approach.&nbsp;&nbsp;+1 if you agree, suggestions =
if you have other ideas<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that may work better.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators =
to prevent<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>forward sharing =
when not permitted.&nbsp;&nbsp;We may want to use these =
values<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>or something =
else.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Harrington, =
Christopher<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Friday, =
February 01, 2013 12:01 PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE =
IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Watchlist Use Case. A =
bunch of indicators are sent in one message. =
In<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>that message we could =
have groupings of indicators that we need to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>show are<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>related:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Two or more indicators of different type that relate =
to the same<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>threat:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The file hash of =
a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the file uses. Either or both may be present to =
indicate a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>compromise.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to =
the same<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>threat:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 different =
registry values for the same registry key. =
If<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>either value is present =
it is a compromise indicator but both will<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>not<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>be<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>present.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider =
the scenario<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>where<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>both groupings above are part of the same threat. I =
need to show that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>logical =
groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't =
send<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>multiple IODEF =
messages for this from what I remember =
reading.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 =
different<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>indicators that =
represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>send both =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>MD5<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>and =
SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>IOCs are the 2 hash =
values. How do we show they are related? If =
we<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>use<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>a =
unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a =
higher<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>level<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>grouping.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thoughts?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--Chris<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Christopher Harrington<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Consulting Security =
Engineer<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>GSO - Critical =
Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information =
Lives<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>174 Middlesex =
Turnpike<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Bedford, MA =
01730<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>781-515-5862 =
(work)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>603-583-1585 =
(cell)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On =
Behalf<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Of Moriarty, =
Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Friday, =
February 01, 2013 11:28 AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To: MILE IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>All -<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get =
opinions from<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the list on =
options to help solve the problems raised in my =
message<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>and additionally =
in Paul's message.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Interesting point, C. Henry.&nbsp;&nbsp;Our objective =
here is to have machine<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather =
than obfuscation<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>to =
achieve the necessary level of =
confidentiality.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of =
compromise from<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>context =
information that may also include IP address or other =
data<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>that could be =
indicators.&nbsp;&nbsp;The question I raised was on how =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>connect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, =
assuming the ability<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>have =
watchlists that could have several sets of indicators =
included,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>as well as to =
connect indicators that may be included in =
embedded<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>schemas.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If we add an attribute on all of the relevant =
indicators, let's say<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>'indicator-uid' how do we mark the =
indicators?&nbsp;&nbsp;Do we use this to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>mark<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>who =
sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward =
sharing<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>when it is not =
permitted or handle that separately?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Then for indicators not included in the base schema =
that may not fit<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>into a =
category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these =
off<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>of SCI or right off of =
the IODE schema in EventData? (more details =
on<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>this in my first =
message).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the =
right technical<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>solution =
to have this machine automatable.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On =
Behalf<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Of =
C.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Henry Adams &amp; =
BIE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Monday, January =
28, 2013 11:25 PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: MILE =
IETF<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp;&nbsp;I =
remember when I first ran<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>across this particular craft, an experienced colleague =
asked me a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>peculiar =
question.&nbsp;&nbsp;He said, &quot; How do you stop someone from =
tracking<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the IP Address to =
your computer?&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
replied, &quot;I don't know, how?&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Then he said, &quot;Cut the dog-gone thing =
off&nbsp;&nbsp;and the modem that it is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>connected- which is constantly on!&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
LOL<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) =
:&nbsp;&nbsp;There is a 1st Responder<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit =
by a Disaster<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>or<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>let's =
just say &quot;Live&quot; Terrorist Situation.&nbsp;&nbsp;He /or She =
needs to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>communication =
back to other Officials that he /or somehow is =
in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Danger.&nbsp;&nbsp;The =
device used to communicate has been captured by =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>great<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>minds of the enemy.&nbsp;&nbsp;It's only a matter of =
time before they utilize<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>reverse engineering to figure out how it =
functions.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, their<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of =
other similar<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>devices to =
attack.&nbsp;&nbsp;Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts =
that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>makes the device =
function properly, saves the day by disguise =
or<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>cutting it off =
(figuratively speaking).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Just a visionary thought.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>C. Henry Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemed=
iagroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"http://biemediagroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank">http://biemediagroup.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The information contained herein is for the exclusive =
use of the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>original =
recipient. This information is granted for =
limited<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>distribution =
within the recipient's place of business for =
planning<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>purposes only. =
Further dissemination, whether private or public =
is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>prohibited.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Dave Misell &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.o=
rg" =
target=3D"_blank">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To: &quot;C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could =
be mirrored with<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>DNS<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>SEC =
a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal =
Id?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Yours Faithfully,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Dave Misell MSc CISSP<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>SilentCircle&nbsp;&nbsp;dsm<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>07710 380044<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.o=
rg" =
target=3D"_blank">david.misell@bcs.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams &amp; =
BIE<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in =
a unique way<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>was<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>closely related to what I attempted to express when I =
stated,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;consider to =
a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant =
minds<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>in some =
instances.&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little =
clearer.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, it<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>would<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from =
those who study<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Security Art Form in a negative =
way.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>C. Henry Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email) <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemed=
iagroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The information contained herein is for the exclusive =
use of the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>original<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recipient. This information is granted for limited =
distribution<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>within<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recipient's place of business for planning purposes =
only. Further<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>dissemination, whether private or public is =
prohibited.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;Stoecker, Paul&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I would like to look at this from a slightly =
different<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>perspective=C5=A0let's say I get an XML document that =
tells me about an<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>incident.&nbsp;&nbsp;This document has source IP and =
destination IP that is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>being shared.&nbsp;&nbsp;However, what I don't know is =
which IP address is my<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicator and which is just a contextual piece of =
information.&nbsp;&nbsp;This<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>means that my detection product isn't going to know =
which one to use<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>either, =
because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the =
one,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>even<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>if =
the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my =
system<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>which<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>one I should use as the =
indicator.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, =
it would<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>allow<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>us =
to easily identify indicators from contextual data.&nbsp;&nbsp;I do =
admit<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>being =
biased as I have spent much of my career working on =
the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>monitoring and =
detection side of these things, so I am just =
thinking<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>of ways to make =
it very clear what the indicators are in the =
XML<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>document and the other =
data that may be important as I investigate<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>activity that I have detected off of those =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get =
more<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>flexibility with the =
indicator_uid.&nbsp;&nbsp;One thing that I =
haven't<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>considered is the =
UID portion of this=C5=A0how do we use that =
UID?&nbsp;&nbsp;How<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
UID created?&nbsp;&nbsp;Are there standards for =
UIDs?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>SMC Lead Content Architect<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RSA, The Security Division of =
EMC<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>cell: 302.379.3375 | =
e: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: =
&quot;KathleenMoriarty&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" =
target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Cc: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Greetings Kathleen,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm =
amazed at the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>many<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>avenues you review with this approach at =
once.&nbsp;&nbsp;However,&nbsp;&nbsp;could =
you<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>share<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>a<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>few =
advantages and disadvantages to the latter?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>----------------------------------------------<o:p></o:=
p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF =
4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&quot;we could continue to group items in logical =
places as is done now<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>in<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>IODEF and then have the extension point for combined =
indicators via<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>SCI.&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>---------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p=
></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF =
4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>You pointed out what you consider to be logical =
places, but if I<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>wanted =
to<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>protect =
information from parties capable of ascertaining it from =
your<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>logical places, =
perhaps we should also consider to a degree =
what<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>appears<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>be =
illogical in brilliant minds in some =
instances.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>C. Henry Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct =
Email)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemed=
iagroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The information contained herein is for the exclusive =
use of the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>original<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recipient. This information is granted for limited =
distribution<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>within<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recipient's place of business for planning purposes =
only. Further<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>dissemination, whether private or public is =
prohibited.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" =
target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
/blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>From: Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com" =
target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: RE: [mile] =
IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: &quot;C. Henry =
Adams &amp; BIE&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a>&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquot=
e><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 =
AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hello C. Henry &amp; =
others,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for taking a look at this.&nbsp;&nbsp;We have a =
few considerations in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and =
there may be more<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>once<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RFC5070-bis is actively =
edited).<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both =
allow for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>non-XML<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>extensions.&nbsp;&nbsp;Where you place the extensions =
should be specific to the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>logical grouping of the parent elements so you can =
understand more<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>about<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>included data in most =
cases.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The Impact class can be used to provide context =
information on the<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>included data of the report and also can include a =
confidence rating<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>on<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>report as a whole.&nbsp;&nbsp;Extensions related to =
impact would be one level<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>higher<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>(at the moment) in the Assessment class using the =
AdditionalData<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>extension<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>point.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Take asked about including vulnerability information, =
I would think<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of =
the SCI draft in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Method class.&nbsp;&nbsp;He did ask about =
non-XML.&nbsp;&nbsp;RecordItem or<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>AdditionalData<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>do<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>allow =
for non-XML extension points, we could either have the =
SCI<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>handle these as well or have the extensions that are =
non-XML come<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>directly<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according =
to what makes<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>sense<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>from a logical =
standpoint.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>As for my question, it was =
two-fold.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a =
GUID for the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>various<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indicators they share.&nbsp;&nbsp;If we are extending =
to embed other schemas<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want =
to add an<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>attribute<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to the various elements in IODEF that could be =
indicators?&nbsp;&nbsp;Is this<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>enough<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to make the connections or is something else else =
needed?&nbsp;&nbsp;We could<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>add<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which =
would then<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>correlate<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
reference or GUID identifiers.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Then the other question was on how to include =
indicators that are<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>not<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>in<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the base schema that may be related or have language =
with &quot;and&quot; &quot;or&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>specify the relationships.&nbsp;&nbsp;In some cases, =
you will want to group<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>these<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indictors in one extension point, where they may fit =
logically in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>multiple<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>places if the relationships did not need to be shown =
in the data<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>format.&nbsp;&nbsp;If<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>we have cases like this where you need more complex =
representations,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>should<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of =
the EventData<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>class<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>AdditionalData extension point?&nbsp;&nbsp;Opinions =
are needed here....<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>A =
few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly =
shared<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>indictors into the base IODEF document.&nbsp;&nbsp;We =
could have a catch-all<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>class<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that does this and has an extension point off of it in =
EventData or<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>we<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>could<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>continue to group items in logical places as is done =
now in IODEF and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>then<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>have the extension point for combined indicators via =
SCI.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think I<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>like<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
latter approach.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>From: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of =
C.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Henry<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Adams &amp; BIE [<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" =
target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 =
AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cc: C. Henry Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Greetings Everyone,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the =
:<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------------------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based =
alert/warning<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>of<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>information leakage, it could be an event that are =
conveyed in the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>SCI's =
EventReport class, IMHO.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML =
ones, I guess it<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>could<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>be<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>conveyed without using SCI =
draft.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>For instance, we =
could use Impact class of the base IODEF to =
convey<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
indicators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>We could for =
instance extend the list of indicators of the =
Impact<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>class,<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>if<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>needed.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------------------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>In doing so he pointed out the &quot;Impact =
Class&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Whereas, Kathleen =
stated,<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquo=
te style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For the discussion below, I was thinking more of =
combined set with<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>relationships that may be included in a single =
extension point, so<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>that's<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>why I was thinking about the EventData class, but =
there may be better<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>locations or a specific area within the =
EventData.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul Stoecker had suggested a &quot;Detection&quot; =
class as a consideration.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--------<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>------------------------<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquot=
e style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other =
indicators and the<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>EventData Class.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Is there a possible way to create a new XML class =
which encompass<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF =
classes to simplify<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>issue?<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>C. Henry Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com" target=3D"_blank">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct =
Email)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemed=
iagroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The information contained herein is for the exclusive =
use of the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>original<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recipient. This information is granted for limited =
distribution<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>within<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recipient's place of business for planning purposes =
only. Further<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>dissemination, whether private or public is =
prohibited.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt' id=3D"yiv2128506179MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>mile mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>mile mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>mile mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>mile mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>mile mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://us.mc534.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mile@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
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From: "Field, John" <johnp.field@emc.com>
To: "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 17:59:10 -0500
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-field-mile-rolie-01.txt
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Subject: [mile] FW: New Version Notification for draft-field-mile-rolie-01.txt
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What is the justification for both numeric and enumerated values =
(low/medium/high)?  In general such a schema is begging for =
interoperability problems.

I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.  On the We Need =
Numbers side is those that actually calculate a percentage or other =
objective measure in the confidence may want to use those real numbers. =
As well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three =
enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We Need =
Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0% and 100%, tend to be =
arbitrary guesses. Putting a number on this value imparts a level of =
specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easier to map 'low' =
to 'low' than it is to map 0-33 to 'low'.

On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Harrington, Christopher" =
<Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:

> That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the =
numbers.  I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we add =
the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However for =
potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.
> =20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
> =20
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen=20
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> =20
> If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs =
with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just meant =
for the exchange)?  The numbers map to low/med/high =96 for db storage =96=
 if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, adding the 2 =
additional ones provided.
> =20
> Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is =
doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both options?
> =20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> =20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
> To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> =46rom a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work =
for the people who are going to receive this data if we support both =
numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people =
wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we allow =
both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of some sort. =
I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking database. Having =
both a numeric score and alpha characters / words creates issues when =
trying to interact with the data. I agree that we need to support both =
however I don=92t think both should be in the same field. I would much =
rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if we are going to support =
2 different data types.
> =20
> This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere. =
Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed as =
 some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.  =
Currently there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.
> =20
> Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)
> Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the =
set should be in the set)
> Campaign (how confident are you that all Indicator_Sets are part of =
this campaign)
> Threat Actor (how confident are you that the Campaign is attributed to =
this Threat Actor)
> Threat Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT, =
Crimeware, other)
> =20
> The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first =
2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive =
priority.  Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital =
piece of information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but =
I wanted to show where Confidence could be used.
> =20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
> =20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of =
the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a simplified =
schema as such below:
>=20
> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.
>=20
> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>
>=20
> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>
>=20
> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>
>=20
> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>
>=20
> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  =
Urgent, 5 =3D Imminent )
>=20
> Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated =
definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the analysis. =20=

>=20
> Thanks,
> C. Henry Adams
>=20
>=20
> I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low, =
medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will want =
to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or decreasing.  If =
we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot express what is needed =
to show confidence is trending up on the data being exchanged about the =
event.
> =20
> Kathleen included the following in a previous message.
> =20
> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
> =20
> Vs:
> =20
> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
> =20
> I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded to =
since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is indeed =
subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate confidence =
index that the sender is trying to convey.
> =20
> Kent Landfield
>=20
> McAfee | An Intel Company
> Direct: +1.972.963.7096=20
> Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
> Web: www.mcafee.com
> =20
> From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov>
> Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
> To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
> Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF =
<mile@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> Paul,
> =20
> I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be reduced
> within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization of =
indicators
> and response between tightly connected sharing partners might require =
a
> more specific level of detail, particularly during a crisis situation.
> =20
> =46rom that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for =
additional
> granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as preferred for
> broad interoperability.
> =20
> -John
> =20
> On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:
> =20
> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
> =20
> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
> terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
> essentially would say something like:
> =20
> 1-33 =3D Low
> 34-67=3D Medium
> 68-100=3DHigh
> =20
> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low, =
Medium,
> High...do we really thing that how High something is makes that much =
of a
> difference?
> =20
> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does Not
> Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High
> Meets...your
> bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other Meets =
got
> ;-)
> =20
> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
> confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why =
use
> numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
> =20
> =20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> wrote:
> =20
> Hello,
> =20
> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The =
representation
> looks a little different for each, here is an example:
> =20
> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
> =20
> Vs:
> =20
> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
> =20
> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from
> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
> extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
> specifying how to select ranges.
> =20
> Any other opinions?
> =20
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stoecker, Paul
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
> To: Brian Trammell
> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium, =
and
> Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate =
against
> the schema.
> =20
> Sent from my iPhone
> =20
> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell" =
<trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
> wrote:
> =20
> Hi, Kathleen, all,
> =20
> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build
> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean
> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and rigorous
> than it needs to be.)
> =20
> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably
> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, =
however
> educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own scales such
> that each value generally means the same thing in each report. Across
> teams, I don't know.
> =20
> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating =
a
> response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,
> though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.
> =20
> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I
> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note
> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high,
> unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the
> users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning "yes" and 0
> meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is =
purely
> coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent" in 5070-bis.
> =20
> Best regards,
> =20
> Brian (as contributor)
> =20
> =20
> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
> =20
> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
> change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
> rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for
> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various =
markers
> that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating the markers
> meaning.
> =20
> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned
> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
> scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective element
> to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary from
> entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to consider
> who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to
> your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on this.
> =20
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
> =20
> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
> To: MILE IETF
> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> =20
> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
> point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears
> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization to
> be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
> =20
> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of
> urgency.
> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  =
Urgent,
> 5 =3D Imminent )
> =20
> Thanks,
> C. Henry Adams
> =20
> =20
> =20
> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence
> the
> way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me
> an IoC
> with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a
> scale of
> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability
> to
> describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
> when we
> store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are
> numeric
> as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very problematic.
> =20
> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
> recommend
> that we revisit this at some point.
> =20
> Thanks,
> =20
> --Chris
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
> 'MILE
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> Hi Chris & Take,
> =20
> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
> allows for
> you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and
> high.
> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
> If
> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful
> to have
> guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
> =20
> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches,
> so
> we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is
> nice to
> keep in flexible options where we can.
> =20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
> =20
> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break
> it
> down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on
> scoring,
> rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand
> low/med/high
> without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the
> level.
> =20
> Low - I am not sure
> Medium - I am reasonably sure
> High - I am very sure
> =20
> =20
> Thanks,
> =20
> --Chris
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to
> deal
> with large sets of indicators.
> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
> omitted
> if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
> =20
> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
> attribute
> for the reason Chris kindly described.
> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
> For
> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",
> etc?
> =20
> Thank you.
> Take
> =20
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have
> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
> =20
> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
> =20
> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
> science by any means.
> =20
> Thanks,
> =20
> --Chris
> =20
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> Hi Take & others,
> =20
> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a
> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view
> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that
> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be
> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
> 'MILE
> IETF'
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> I like this discussion.
> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
> the IOC-related classes.
> =20
> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get
> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could
> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that
> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I
> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
> =20
> What do others think?
> =20
> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not
> fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for
> these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
> (more details
> on
> this in my first message).
> =20
> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event
> record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the
> XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
> =20
> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into
> guidance
> in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
> =20
> =20
> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
> =20
> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
> the indicator_set_id.
> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any
> other way to express these groupings.
> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
> In
> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
> =20
> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
> relationships
> in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it
> into
> the current
> structure.
> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
> options, that would be appreciated!
> =20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> =20
> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
> I
> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
> mis-understood some points.
> =20
> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
> classes'
> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information
> as
> well.
> =20
> Thanks
> Take
> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
> If
> I give you
> 2
> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
> have the same group ID since they are related.
> =20
> Thanks,
> --Chris
> =20
> From: Stoecker, Paul
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
> same group ID.
> Would this resolve the issue?
> =20
> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them
> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them
> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
> complicated like STIX.
> =20
> Paul
> =20
> =20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> =20
> =20
> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE
> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> Hi Chris,
> =20
> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
> =20
> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to
> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes
> back in July, both for guidance and for
> format
> updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least
> some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at
> least a proposed solution.
> =20
> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect
> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
> AttackType
> (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader
> term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute
> values
> like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added
> context
> so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.
> =20
> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
> indicators,
> add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect
> indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of
> indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
> connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared
> into the base IODEF.
> =20
> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we
> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
> for
> other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System
> class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at the
> more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an
> indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Maybe
> we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions on
> this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas
> that may work better.
> =20
> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values
> or something else.
> =20
> Thank you!
> Kathleen
> =20
> From: Harrington, Christopher
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
> show are
> related:
> =20
> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
> threat:
>        The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
> compromise.
> =20
> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
> threat:
>        2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
> not
> be
> present.
> =20
> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
> where
> both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that
> logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send
> multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
> =20
> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
> send both the
> MD5
> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the
> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
> use
> a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher
> level
> grouping.
> =20
> Thoughts?
> =20
> Thanks,
> =20
> --Chris
> =20
> Christopher Harrington
> Consulting Security Engineer
> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
> Bedford, MA 01730
> 781-515-5862 (work)
> 603-583-1585 (cell)
> =20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> All -
> =20
> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from
> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
> and additionally in Paul's message.
> =20
> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
> =20
> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
> context information that may also include IP address or other data
> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to
> connect
> sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability
> to
> have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,
> as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded
> schemas.
> =20
> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to
> mark
> who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing
> when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
> =20
> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on
> this in my first message).
> =20
> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
> solution to have this machine automatable.
> =20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> =20
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of C.
> Henry Adams & BIE
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran
> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking
> the IP Address to your computer?"
> =20
> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
> =20
> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
> =20
> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
> or
> let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the
> great
> minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize
> reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their
> pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar
> devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that
> makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
> =20
> Just a visionary thought.
> =20
> C. Henry Adams
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> http://biemediagroup.com
> =20
> =20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
> prohibited.
> =20
> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
> =20
> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
> DNS
> SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
> =20
> Yours Faithfully,
> =20
> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
> SilentCircle  dsm
> 07710 380044
> david.misell@bcs.org
> =20
> =20
> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
> <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> =20
> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
> was
> closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds
> in some instances."
> =20
> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
> would
> be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study
> this
> Security Art Form in a negative way.
> =20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> =20
> =20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
> within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> =20
> Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
> From:
> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
> To:
> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
> perspective=8Alet's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one,
> even
> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
> which
> one I should use as the indicator.
> =20
> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would
> allow
> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit
> to
> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
> =20
> =20
> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
> considered is the UID portion of this=8Ahow do we use that UID?  How
> is
> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Paul
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
> SMC Lead Content Architect
> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
> =20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> =20
> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Cc: mile@ietf.org
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
> =20
> Greetings Kathleen,
> =20
> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
> many
> avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you
> share
> a
> few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ----------------------------------------------
> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now
> in
> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
> SCI."
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ---------------------------------------------
> =20
> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
> wanted to
> protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
> logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what
> appears
> to
> be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> =20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
> within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> =20
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> wrote:
> =20
> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
> <mile@ietf.org>
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
> =20
> Hello C. Henry & others,
> =20
> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
> this
> email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more
> once
> RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
> =20
> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
> non-XML
> extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
> logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more
> about
> the
> included data in most cases.
> =20
> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating
> on
> the
> report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level
> higher
> (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData
> extension
> point.
> =20
> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
> that
> would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
> the
> Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or
> AdditionalData
> do
> allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI
> draft
> handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come
> directly
> off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes
> sense
> from a logical standpoint.
> =20
> As for my question, it was two-fold.
> =20
> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
> various
> indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas
> that
> include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an
> attribute
> to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this
> enough
> to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could
> add
> something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then
> correlate
> to
> the reference or GUID identifiers.
> =20
> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are
> not
> in
> the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or"
> to
> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
> these
> indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in
> multiple
> places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
> format.  If
> we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
> should
> we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData
> class
> AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....
> =20
> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
> class
> that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or
> we
> could
> continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
> then
> have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I
> like
> the latter approach.
> =20
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> ________________________________________
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
> Henry
> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
> To: mile@ietf.org
> Cc: C. Henry Adams
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
> =20
> Greetings Everyone,
> =20
> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning
> of
> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
> =20
> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
> could
> be
> conveyed without using SCI draft.
> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
> the indicators.
> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
> class,
> if
> needed.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> --------------------------
> =20
> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
> =20
> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> -------------------------
> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
> that's
> why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
> locations or a specific area within the EventData.
> =20
> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ------------------------
> =20
> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
> EventData Class.
> =20
> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
> this
> issue?
> =20
> =20
> C. Henry Adams
> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
> =20
> =20
> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
> original
> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
> within
> the
> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
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From Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com  Sat Feb 16 15:33:08 2013
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From: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
To: "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:32:48 -0500
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FYI.  I finally finished the edits, I think.  This is my first time
submitting an RFC draft, so be gentle.  I am sure I have many mistakes.
;-)

There are questions that I left in the schema that need to be answered.  I
also left in the CHANGE comments that Kathleen put into the schema, so
that you can see the changes and check it against the UML.

Enjoy!!


Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com






On 2/16/13 6:23 PM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
wrote:

>
>A new version of I-D, draft-stoecker-danyliw-rfc5070bis-00.txt
>has been successfully submitted by Paul Stoecker and posted to the
>IETF repository.
>
>Filename:	 draft-stoecker-danyliw-rfc5070bis
>Revision:	 00
>Title:		 The Incident Object Description Exchange Format
>Creation date:	 2013-02-17
>Group:		 Individual Submission
>Number of pages: 98
>URL:            =20
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stoecker-danyliw-rfc5070bis-00.t
>xt
>Status:         =20
>http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-stoecker-danyliw-rfc5070bis
>Htmlized:       =20
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-stoecker-danyliw-rfc5070bis-00
>
>
>Abstract:
>   The Incident Object Description Exchange Format (IODEF) defines a
>   data representation that provides a framework for sharing information
>   commonly exchanged by Computer Security Incident Response Teams
>   (CSIRTs) about computer security incidents.  This document describes
>   the information model for the IODEF and provides an associated data
>   model specified with XML Schema.
>
>                 =20
>       =20
>
>
>The IETF Secretariat
>
>


From john.banghart@nist.gov  Mon Feb 18 04:41:55 2013
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From: "Banghart, John" <john.banghart@nist.gov>
To: Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 07:41:44 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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Eric,

Well, I think you answered your own initial question, but I'm going to
jump in anyway.  :)

Generally speaking, I think we want to strike a balance between
standardization and flexibility.  We are unlikely to arrive at any sort of
one-size-fits-all scheme, no matter how long we talk about it.  Instead,
we should be focusing on solidifying the areas we can all agree on, and
allow flexibility for those that we don't.  It's an age old clich=E9, but
let's not let perfect be the enemy of the good.

-John

On 2/16/13 12:42 PM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> wrote:

>What is the justification for both numeric and enumerated values
>(low/medium/high)?  In general such a schema is begging for
>interoperability problems.
>
>I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.  On the We Need
>Numbers side is those that actually calculate a percentage or other
>objective measure in the confidence may want to use those real numbers.
>As well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three
>enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We Need
>Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0% and 100%, tend to be
>arbitrary guesses. Putting a number on this value imparts a level of
>specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easier to map 'low' to
>'low' than it is to map 0-33 to 'low'.
>
>On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Harrington, Christopher"
><Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>
>> That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the
>>numbers.  I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we add
>>the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However for
>>potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Chris
>>
>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
>> To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>>
>> If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs
>>with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just meant
>>for the exchange)?  The numbers map to low/med/high - for db storage -
>>if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, adding the 2
>>additional ones provided.
>>
>> Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is
>>doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both options?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>Harrington, Christopher
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
>> To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> From a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work for
>>the people who are going to receive this data if we support both numeric
>>and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people wanting to
>>search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we allow both data
>>types then everyone will need to have a mapping of some sort. I have a
>>field for confidence in my threat tracking database. Having both a
>>numeric score and alpha characters / words creates issues when trying to
>>interact with the data. I agree that we need to support both however I
>>don't think both should be in the same field. I would much rather see 2
>>different fields for Confidence if we are going to support 2 different
>>data types.
>>
>> This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere.
>>Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed as
>> some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.
>>Currently there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.
>>
>> Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)
>> Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the
>>set should be in the set)
>> Campaign (how confident are you that all Indicator_Sets are part of
>>this campaign)
>> Threat Actor (how confident are you that the Campaign is attributed to
>>this Threat Actor)
>> Threat Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT,
>>Crimeware, other)
>>
>> The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first 2
>>things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive priority.
>> Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece of
>>information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but I wanted
>>to show where Confidence could be used.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Chris
>>
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>C. Henry Adams & BIE
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
>> To: MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of
>>the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a simplified
>>schema as such below:
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>
>>
>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  U=
rgent,
>>5 =3D Imminent )
>>
>> Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated
>>definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the analysis.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> C. Henry Adams
>>
>>
>> I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low,
>>medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will want
>>to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or decreasing.  If
>>we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot express what is needed
>>to show confidence is trending up on the data being exchanged about the
>>event.
>>
>> Kathleen included the following in a previous message.
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>
>> Vs:
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>
>> I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded to
>>since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is indeed
>>subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate confidence
>>index that the sender is trying to convey.
>>
>> Kent Landfield
>>
>> McAfee | An Intel Company
>> Direct: +1.972.963.7096
>> Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
>> Web: www.mcafee.com
>>
>> From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov>
>> Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
>> To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, Kathleen Moriarty
>><kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>> Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF
>><mile@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be reduced
>> within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization of
>>indicators
>> and response between tightly connected sharing partners might require a
>> more specific level of detail, particularly during a crisis situation.
>>
>> From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for additional
>> granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as preferred for
>> broad interoperability.
>>
>> -John
>>
>> On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:
>>
>> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>>
>> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
>> terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
>> essentially would say something like:
>>
>> 1-33 =3D Low
>> 34-67=3D Medium
>> 68-100=3DHigh
>>
>> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low, Medium,
>> High...do we really thing that how High something is makes that much of
>>a
>> difference?
>>
>> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does Not
>> Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High
>> Meets...your
>> bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the other Meets got
>> ;-)
>>
>> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
>> confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why
>>use
>> numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>>
>>
>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The representation
>> looks a little different for each, here is an example:
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>
>> Vs:
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>
>> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from
>> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
>> extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
>> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
>> specifying how to select ranges.
>>
>> Any other opinions?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>> To: Brian Trammell
>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium,
>>and
>> Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate against
>> the schema.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell" <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>
>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build
>> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean
>> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
>> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
>> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
>> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and rigorous
>> than it needs to be.)
>>
>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably
>> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
>> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess, however
>> educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own scales such
>> that each value generally means the same thing in each report. Across
>> teams, I don't know.
>>
>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
>> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating a
>> response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good point,
>> though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of pointless.
>>
>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I
>> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note
>> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to high,
>> unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_ of the
>> users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning "yes" and 0
>> meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual fact is purely
>> coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent" in 5070-bis.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Brian (as contributor)
>>
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>
>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
>> change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
>> rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for
>> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various markers
>> that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating the markers
>> meaning.
>>
>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
>> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned
>> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
>> scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective element
>> to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may vary from
>> entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to consider
>> who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating to map to
>> your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on this.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>> To: MILE IETF
>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>>
>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
>> point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears
>> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization to
>> be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>
>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels of
>> urgency.
>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  U=
rgent,
>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>
>> Thanks,
>> C. Henry Adams
>>
>>
>>
>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using Confidence
>> the
>> way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and someone sends me
>> an IoC
>> with a score of 70, what does that mean to me? What if I am using a
>> scale of
>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability
>> to
>> describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
>> when we
>> store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values that are
>> numeric
>> as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very problematic.
>>
>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
>> recommend
>> that we revisit this at some point.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Chris
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
>> 'MILE
>> IETF'
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>
>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
>> allows for
>> you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, medium, and
>> high.
>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
>> If
>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful
>> to have
>> guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>
>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the approaches,
>> so
>> we'll need to keep the option for backwards compatibility and it is
>> nice to
>> keep in flexible options where we can.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>> IETF'
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>
>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we break
>> it
>> down to more levels than that we would need to provide guidance on
>> scoring,
>> rating, etc. I think most people should be able to understand
>> low/med/high
>> without having to have a mathematical method for arriving at the
>> level.
>>
>> Low - I am not sure
>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>> High - I am very sure
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Chris
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>> IETF'
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to
>> deal
>> with large sets of indicators.
>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
>> omitted
>> if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>
>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
>> attribute
>> for the reason Chris kindly described.
>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
>> For
>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",
>> etc?
>>
>> Thank you.
>> Take
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>> IETF'
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have
>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>
>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>
>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
>> science by any means.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Chris
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>> IETF'
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Hi Take & others,
>>
>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a
>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view
>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that
>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be
>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
>> 'MILE
>> IETF'
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> I like this discussion.
>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
>> the IOC-related classes.
>>
>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get
>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could
>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that
>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I
>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>
>> What do others think?
>>
>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not
>> fit into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for
>> these off of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>> (more details
>> on
>> this in my first message).
>>
>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event
>> record, we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the
>> XML-based IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>
>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into
>> guidance
>> in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>
>>
>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>
>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
>> the indicator_set_id.
>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any
>> other way to express these groupings.
>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
>> In
>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>
>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
>> relationships
>> in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about adding it
>> into
>> the current
>> structure.
>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though
>> I
>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
>> mis-understood some points.
>>
>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
>> classes'
>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information
>> as
>> well.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Take
>>
>>
>>
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
>> If
>> I give you
>> 2
>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --Chris
>>
>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
>> same group ID.
>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>
>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them
>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them
>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
>> complicated like STIX.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>
>>
>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE
>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>
>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to
>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes
>> back in July, both for guidance and for
>> format
>> updates.  It may help to have the first draft try to address at least
>> some of these issues so people can understand the problems and at
>> least a proposed solution.
>>
>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
>> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect
>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
>> AttackType
>> (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some broader
>> term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus attribute
>> values
>> like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" for added
>> context
>> so you know what to do with the received set of indicators.
>>
>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
>> indicators,
>> add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a method to connect
>> indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using an attribute of
>> indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string value to make the
>> connection points, and add a few indicators that are commonly shared
>> into the base IODEF.
>>
>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we
>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
>> for
>> other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the System
>> class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then at the
>> more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. use an
>> indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  Maybe
>> we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some opinions on
>> this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have other ideas
>> that may work better.
>>
>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values
>> or something else.
>>
>> Thank you!
>> Kathleen
>>
>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
>> show are
>> related:
>>
>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>> threat:
>>        The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
>> compromise.
>>
>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>> threat:
>>        2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
>> not
>> be
>> present.
>>
>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
>> where
>> both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to show that
>> logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We can't send
>> multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember reading.
>>
>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
>> send both the
>> MD5
>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the
>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
>> use
>> a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a higher
>> level
>> grouping.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Chris
>>
>> Christopher Harrington
>> Consulting Security Engineer
>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>> Bedford, MA 01730
>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>> To: MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> All -
>>
>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from
>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>
>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>
>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
>> context information that may also include IP address or other data
>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to
>> connect
>> sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the ability
>> to
>> have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators included,
>> as well as to connect indicators that may be included in embedded
>> schemas.
>>
>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to
>> mark
>> who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward sharing
>> when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>
>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on
>> this in my first message).
>>
>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of C.
>> Henry Adams & BIE
>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>> To: MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran
>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking
>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>
>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>
>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>
>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
>> or
>> let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the
>> great
>> minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they utilize
>> reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, their
>> pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other similar
>> devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts that
>> makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>
>> Just a visionary thought.
>>
>> C. Henry Adams
>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>
>>
>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>> prohibited.
>>
>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>
>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
>> DNS
>> SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>
>> Yours Faithfully,
>>
>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>> SilentCircle  dsm
>> 07710 380044
>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>
>>
>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
>> <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
>> was
>> closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds
>> in some instances."
>>
>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
>> would
>> be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who study
>> this
>> Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>
>> C. Henry Adams
>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>
>>
>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>> original
>> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
>> within
>> the
>> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
>> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>>
>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>> From:
>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>> To:
>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
>> perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one,
>> even
>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
>> which
>> one I should use as the indicator.
>>
>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would
>> allow
>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit
>> to
>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>
>>
>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
>> considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How
>> is
>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>
>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>
>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>
>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
>> many
>> avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could you
>> share
>> a
>> few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now
>> in
>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
>> SCI."
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> ---------------------------------------------
>>
>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
>> wanted to
>> protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it from your
>> logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree what
>> appears
>> to
>> be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>
>>
>>
>> C. Henry Adams
>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>
>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>> original
>> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
>> within
>> the
>> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
>> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>>
>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
>> <mile@ietf.org>
>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>
>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>
>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
>> this
>> email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be more
>> once
>> RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>
>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
>> non-XML
>> extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be specific to the
>> logical grouping of the parent elements so you can understand more
>> about
>> the
>> included data in most cases.
>>
>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating
>> on
>> the
>> report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one level
>> higher
>> (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the AdditionalData
>> extension
>> point.
>>
>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
>> that
>> would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI draft in
>> the
>> Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or
>> AdditionalData
>> do
>> allow for non-XML extension points, we could either have the SCI
>> draft
>> handle these as well or have the extensions that are non-XML come
>> directly
>> off the AdditionalData or RecordItem classes according to what makes
>> sense
>> from a logical standpoint.
>>
>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>
>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
>> various
>> indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other schemas
>> that
>> include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want to add an
>> attribute
>> to the various elements in IODEF that could be indicators?  Is this
>> enough
>> to make the connections or is something else else needed?  We could
>> add
>> something like an Indicator_ID in RFC5070-bis which would then
>> correlate
>> to
>> the reference or GUID identifiers.
>>
>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are
>> not
>> in
>> the base schema that may be related or have language with "and" "or"
>> to
>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
>> these
>> indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically in
>> multiple
>> places if the relationships did not need to be shown in the data
>> format.  If
>> we have cases like this where you need more complex representations,
>> should
>> we use one extension point via the SCI draft off of the EventData
>> class
>> AdditionalData extension point?  Opinions are needed here....
>>
>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
>> class
>> that does this and has an extension point off of it in EventData or
>> we
>> could
>> continue to group items in logical places as is done now in IODEF and
>> then
>> have the extension point for combined indicators via SCI.  I think I
>> like
>> the latter approach.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Kathleen
>> ________________________________________
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
>> Henry
>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>> To: mile@ietf.org
>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Greetings Everyone,
>>
>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> --------------------------
>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning
>> of
>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>
>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
>> could
>> be
>> conveyed without using SCI draft.
>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
>> the indicators.
>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
>> class,
>> if
>> needed.
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> --------------------------
>>
>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>
>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> -------------------------
>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
>> that's
>> why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be better
>> locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>
>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> ------------------------
>>
>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
>> EventData Class.
>>
>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
>> this
>> issue?
>>
>>
>> C. Henry Adams
>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>
>>
>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>> original
>> recipient. This information is granted for limited distribution
>> within
>> the
>> recipient's place of business for planning purposes only. Further
>> dissemination, whether private or public is prohibited.
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
>> mile@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>>
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
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From Christopher.Harrington@emc.com  Tue Feb 19 04:24:19 2013
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From: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>
To: "'Banghart, John'" <john.banghart@nist.gov>, Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 07:24:01 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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I would agree that flexibility is something to strive for. However there
isn't enough in the RFC to make the numeric confidence value understood =
by
the recipient and therefore actionable. From the spec:

"numeric.  The element content contains a number that conveys the =
confidence
of the data.  The semantics of this number outside the scope of this
specification"

Based on that I can score my confidence with 1 being most confident and =
100
being least. Perfectly legitimate but would probably mess everybody up. =
What
if my scale is 1000 and yours is 100. I send you something with a score =
of
100 you will think I am absolutely certain when I am only 10% so. =
Knowing
how sure the sender is about a piece of data shared is critical. If the
sender puts an arbitrary number in the field I have no point of =
reference.
It's meaningless to me.=20

We spell out what the relative value is for low/med/high. I know those =
are
self-explanatory but they are still spelled out. I would urge that we do =
the
same for a numeric value. If not there needs to be something added so =
that
in addition to the numeric value I have a point of reference for how =
certain
you are based on the number you put there.=20

Thanks,

--Chris


-----Original Message-----
From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Banghart, John
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:42 AM
To: Eric Burger; MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Eric,

Well, I think you answered your own initial question, but I'm going to =
jump
in anyway.  :)

Generally speaking, I think we want to strike a balance between
standardization and flexibility.  We are unlikely to arrive at any sort =
of
one-size-fits-all scheme, no matter how long we talk about it.  Instead, =
we
should be focusing on solidifying the areas we can all agree on, and =
allow
flexibility for those that we don't.  It's an age old clich=E9, but =
let's not
let perfect be the enemy of the good.

-John

On 2/16/13 12:42 PM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> wrote:

>What is the justification for both numeric and enumerated values=20
>(low/medium/high)?  In general such a schema is begging for=20
>interoperability problems.
>
>I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.  On the We Need=20
>Numbers side is those that actually calculate a percentage or other=20
>objective measure in the confidence may want to use those real numbers.
>As well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three=20
>enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We=20
>Need Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0% and 100%, tend =

>to be arbitrary guesses. Putting a number on this value imparts a level =

>of specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easier to map=20
>'low' to 'low' than it is to map 0-33 to 'low'.
>
>On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Harrington, Christopher"
><Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>
>> That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the=20
>>numbers.  I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we add =

>>the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However=20
>>for potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Chris
>>
>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
>> To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>>
>> If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs=20
>>with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just meant =

>>for the exchange)?  The numbers map to low/med/high - for db storage - =

>>if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, adding the=20
>>2 additional ones provided.
>>
>> Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is=20
>>doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both options?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
>>Of Harrington, Christopher
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
>> To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> From a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work=20
>>for the people who are going to receive this data if we support both=20
>>numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people=20
>>wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we=20
>>allow both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of=20
>>some sort. I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking=20
>>database. Having both a numeric score and alpha characters / words=20
>>creates issues when trying to interact with the data. I agree that we=20
>>need to support both however I don't think both should be in the same=20
>>field. I would much rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if we =

>>are going to support 2 different data types.
>>
>> This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere.
>>Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed=20
>>as  some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.
>>Currently there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.
>>
>> Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC) =20
>>Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the=20
>>set should be in the set)  Campaign (how confident are you that all=20
>>Indicator_Sets are part of this campaign)  Threat Actor (how confident =

>>are you that the Campaign is attributed to this Threat Actor)  Threat=20
>>Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT,=20
>>Crimeware, other)
>>
>> The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first =

>>2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive =
priority.
>> Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece=20
>>of information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but I=20
>>wanted to show where Confidence could be used.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Chris
>>
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
>>Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
>> To: MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of=20
>>the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a=20
>>simplified schema as such below:
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>
>>
>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D =
 Urgent,
>>5 =3D Imminent )
>>
>> Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated=20
>>definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the analysis.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> C. Henry Adams
>>
>>
>> I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low,=20
>>medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will=20
>>want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or=20
>>decreasing.  If we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot=20
>>express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the data=20
>>being exchanged about the event.
>>
>> Kathleen included the following in a previous message.
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>
>> Vs:
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>
>> I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded=20
>>to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is=20
>>indeed subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate=20
>>confidence index that the sender is trying to convey.
>>
>> Kent Landfield
>>
>> McAfee | An Intel Company
>> Direct: +1.972.963.7096
>> Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
>> Web: www.mcafee.com
>>
>> From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov>
>> Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
>> To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, Kathleen Moriarty=20
>><kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>> Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF=20
>><mile@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be=20
>>reduced  within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization=20
>>of indicators  and response between tightly connected sharing partners =

>>might require a  more specific level of detail, particularly during a=20
>>crisis situation.
>>
>> From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for=20
>> additional granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as=20
>> preferred for broad interoperability.
>>
>> -John
>>
>> On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:
>>
>> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>>
>> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
>> terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that=20
>> essentially would say something like:
>>
>> 1-33 =3D Low
>> 34-67=3D Medium
>> 68-100=3DHigh
>>
>> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low,=20
>>Medium,  High...do we really thing that how High something is makes=20
>>that much of a  difference?
>>
>> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does=20
>> Not Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High =

>> Meets...your bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the =

>> other Meets got
>> ;-)
>>
>> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that =
=20
>>confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why =

>>use  numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>>
>>
>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The=20
>> representation looks a little different for each, here is an example:
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>
>> Vs:
>>
>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>
>> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from =

>> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find=20
>> extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the=20
>> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to=20
>> specifying how to select ranges.
>>
>> Any other opinions?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>> To: Brian Trammell
>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium, =

>>and  Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate=20
>>against  the schema.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell"=20
>> <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>
>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build =

>> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean =

>> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports=20
>> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had=20
>> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I=20
>> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and=20
>> rigorous than it needs to be.)
>>
>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably =

>> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in=20
>> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess,=20
>> however educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own=20
>> scales such that each value generally means the same thing in each=20
>> report. Across teams, I don't know.
>>
>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated=20
>> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating =

>> a response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good=20
>> point, though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of
pointless.
>>
>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I =

>> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note =

>> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to=20
>> high, unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_=20
>> of the users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning=20
>> "yes" and 0 meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual=20
>> fact is purely coincidental", then let's consider renaming it =
"percent"
in 5070-bis.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Brian (as contributor)
>>
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>
>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can=20
>> change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence=20
>> rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for=20
>> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various=20
>> markers that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating=20
>> the markers meaning.
>>
>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more=20
>> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned=20
>> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The=20
>> scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective=20
>> element to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may=20
>> vary from entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to =

>> consider who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating=20
>> to map to your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on
this.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>> To: MILE IETF
>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>>
>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital=20
>> point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears =

>> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization=20
>> to be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>
>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels=20
>> of urgency.
>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D =
 Urgent,
>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>
>> Thanks,
>> C. Henry Adams
>>
>>
>>
>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using=20
>> Confidence the way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and=20
>> someone sends me an IoC with a score of 70, what does that mean to=20
>> me? What if I am using a scale of
>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability=20
>> to describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly =

>> when we store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values=20
>> that are numeric as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very=20
>> problematic.
>>
>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly=20
>> recommend that we revisit this at some point.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Chris
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;=20
>> 'MILE IETF'
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>
>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema=20
>> allows for you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low, =

>> medium, and high.
>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
>> If
>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful=20
>> to have guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>
>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the=20
>> approaches, so we'll need to keep the option for backwards=20
>> compatibility and it is nice to keep in flexible options where we=20
>> can.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=20
>> IETF'
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of=20
>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP =

>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have =

>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>
>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we=20
>> break it down to more levels than that we would need to provide=20
>> guidance on scoring, rating, etc. I think most people should be able=20
>> to understand low/med/high without having to have a mathematical=20
>> method for arriving at the level.
>>
>> Low - I am not sure
>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>> High - I am very sure
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Chris
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul;=20
>> 'MILE IETF'
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to =

>> deal with large sets of indicators.
>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be=20
>> omitted if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>
>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence=20
>> attribute for the reason Chris kindly described.
>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
>> For
>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",=20
>> etc?
>>
>> Thank you.
>> Take
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=20
>> IETF'
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have=20
>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>
>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>
>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute=20
>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect=20
>> science by any means.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Chris
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE =

>> IETF'
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Hi Take & others,
>>
>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a=20
>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll=20
>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view=20
>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that =

>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the=20
>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be =

>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;=20
>> 'MILE IETF'
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> I like this discussion.
>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside=20
>> the IOC-related classes.
>>
>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that=20
>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same=20
>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you=20
>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get=20
>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could=20
>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that =

>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of=20
>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I=20
>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>
>> What do others think?
>>
>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=20
>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off=20
>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>> (more details
>> on
>> this in my first message).
>>
>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event record, =

>> we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based=20
>> IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>
>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into=20
>> guidance in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>
>>
>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>
>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of=20
>> the indicator_set_id.
>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids=20
>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any other =

>> way to express these groupings.
>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
>> In
>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>
>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or=20
>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this =

>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of=20
>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it=20
>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and=20
>> relationships in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about =

>> adding it into the current structure.
>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some=20
>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though I =

>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have=20
>> mis-understood some points.
>>
>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI=20
>> classes'
>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information as =

>> well.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Take
>>
>>
>>
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a=20
>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
>> If
>> I give you
>> 2
>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of=20
>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would=20
>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --Chris
>>
>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the=20
>> same group ID.
>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>
>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators) =

>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them =

>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go=20
>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing=20
>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the=20
>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared=20
>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a=20
>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them =

>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something=20
>> complicated like STIX.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>
>>
>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE=20
>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>
>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to=20
>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including=20
>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to=20
>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for=20
>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like=20
>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes=20
>> back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.  It may help=20
>> to have the first draft try to address at least some of these issues=20
>> so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed=20
>> solution.
>>
>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between=20
>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that=20
>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the=20
>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add=20
>> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect =

>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the=20
>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list=20
>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had=20
>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would=20
>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an=20
>> AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some=20
>> broader term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus=20
>> attribute values like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution" =

>> for added context so you know what to do with the received set of=20
>> indicators.
>>
>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of=20
>> indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a=20
>> method to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using =

>> an attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string=20
>> value to make the connection points, and add a few indicators that=20
>> are commonly shared into the base IODEF.
>>
>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and=20
>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help=20
>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a=20
>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in=20
>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we=20
>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure=20
>> for other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the=20
>> System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then=20
>> at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc. =

>> use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?  =

>> Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some=20
>> opinions on this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have=20
>> other ideas that may work better.
>>
>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent=20
>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values=20
>> or something else.
>>
>> Thank you!
>> Kathleen
>>
>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the=20
>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In =

>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to=20
>> show are
>> related:
>>
>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>> threat:
>>        The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that=20
>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a=20
>> compromise.
>>
>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>> threat:
>>        2 different registry values for the same registry key. If=20
>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will=20
>> not be present.
>>
>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario=20
>> where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to=20
>> show that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We=20
>> can't send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember=20
>> reading.
>>
>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different=20
>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to=20
>> send both the
>> MD5
>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the=20
>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we=20
>> use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a=20
>> higher level grouping.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Chris
>>
>> Christopher Harrington
>> Consulting Security Engineer
>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>> Bedford, MA 01730
>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>> To: MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> All -
>>
>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from=20
>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message=20
>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>
>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine=20
>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation =

>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>
>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from=20
>> context information that may also include IP address or other data=20
>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to=20
>> connect sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the=20
>> ability to have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators =

>> included, as well as to connect indicators that may be included in=20
>> embedded schemas.
>>
>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say=20
>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to=20
>> mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward=20
>> sharing when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>
>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=20
>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off=20
>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on =

>> this in my first message).
>>
>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical=20
>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
>> Of C.
>> Henry Adams & BIE
>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>> To: MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran=20
>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a=20
>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking=20
>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>
>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>
>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>
>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder=20
>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster=20
>> or let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to=20
>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in=20
>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the=20
>> great minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they=20
>> utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However, =

>> their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other=20
>> similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts =

>> that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or =

>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>
>> Just a visionary thought.
>>
>> C. Henry Adams
>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>
>>
>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20
>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20
>> prohibited.
>>
>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>
>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with=20
>> DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>
>> Yours Faithfully,
>>
>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>> SilentCircle  dsm
>> 07710 380044
>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>
>>
>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE=20
>> <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way=20
>> was closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,=20
>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds =

>> in some instances."
>>
>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it=20
>> would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who=20
>> study this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>
>> C. Henry Adams
>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>
>>
>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20
>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20
>> prohibited.
>>
>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>> From:
>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>> To:
>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different=20
>> perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an=20
>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is=20
>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my=20
>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This=20
>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use=20
>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even =

>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system=20
>> which one I should use as the indicator.
>>
>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow =

>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to =

>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the=20
>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking=20
>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML=20
>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate=20
>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>
>>
>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more=20
>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't=20
>> considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How =
is=20
>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>
>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>
>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>
>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the=20
>> many avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could=20
>> you share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in =

>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via=20
>> SCI."
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> ---------------------------------------------
>>
>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I=20
>> wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it =

>> from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree =

>> what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>
>>
>>
>> C. Henry Adams
>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>
>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20
>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20
>> prohibited.
>>
>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
>> <mile@ietf.org>
>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>
>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>
>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in=20
>> this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be=20
>> more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>
>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for=20
>> non-XML extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be=20
>> specific to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can=20
>> understand more about the included data in most cases.
>>
>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the=20
>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating=20
>> on the report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one=20
>> level higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the=20
>> AdditionalData extension point.
>>
>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think=20
>> that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI=20
>> draft in the Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or=20
>> AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could either =

>> have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that=20
>> are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem=20
>> classes according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
>>
>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>
>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the=20
>> various indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other=20
>> schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want=20
>> to add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be=20
>> indicators?  Is this enough to make the connections or is something=20
>> else else needed?  We could add something like an Indicator_ID in=20
>> RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the reference or GUID=20
>> identifiers.
>>
>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not =

>> in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and"=20
>> "or"
>> to
>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group=20
>> these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically=20
>> in multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in=20
>> the data format.  If we have cases like this where you need more=20
>> complex representations, should we use one extension point via the=20
>> SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension point?  =

>> Opinions are needed here....
>>
>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared=20
>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all=20
>> class that does this and has an extension point off of it in=20
>> EventData or we could continue to group items in logical places as is =

>> done now in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined=20
>> indicators via SCI.  I think I like the latter approach.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Kathleen
>> ________________________________________
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
>> Henry
>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>> To: mile@ietf.org
>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> Greetings Everyone,
>>
>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> --------------------------
>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of =

>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the=20
>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>
>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it=20
>> could be conveyed without using SCI draft.
>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey=20
>> the indicators.
>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact=20
>> class, if needed.
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> --------------------------
>>
>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>
>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> -------------------------
>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with=20
>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so=20
>> that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be =

>> better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>
>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>> ------------------------
>>
>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the=20
>> EventData Class.
>>
>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass=20
>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify =

>> this issue?
>>
>>
>> C. Henry Adams
>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>
>>
>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20
>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20
>> prohibited.
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
>> mile@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
>> mile@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
>> mile@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
>> mile@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
>> mile@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>
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If there really is no value to a value, do not let people hurt =
themselves.

If there is a proprietary reason for a value, we should say what we mean =
and call it such. For example:

	<confidence rating=3D"low">This is XML so put your =
NON-INTEROPERABLE mumble you want here</confidence>
or
	<confidence rating=3D"high">42</confidence>
or
	<confidence =
rating=3D"medium"><mydom:meansSomethingToMe>balderdash</mydom:meansSomethi=
ngToMe></confidence>

On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:24 AM, "Harrington, Christopher" =
<Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:

> I would agree that flexibility is something to strive for. However =
there
> isn't enough in the RFC to make the numeric confidence value =
understood by
> the recipient and therefore actionable. =46rom the spec:
>=20
> "numeric.  The element content contains a number that conveys the =
confidence
> of the data.  The semantics of this number outside the scope of this
> specification"
>=20
> Based on that I can score my confidence with 1 being most confident =
and 100
> being least. Perfectly legitimate but would probably mess everybody =
up. What
> if my scale is 1000 and yours is 100. I send you something with a =
score of
> 100 you will think I am absolutely certain when I am only 10% so. =
Knowing
> how sure the sender is about a piece of data shared is critical. If =
the
> sender puts an arbitrary number in the field I have no point of =
reference.
> It's meaningless to me.=20
>=20
> We spell out what the relative value is for low/med/high. I know those =
are
> self-explanatory but they are still spelled out. I would urge that we =
do the
> same for a numeric value. If not there needs to be something added so =
that
> in addition to the numeric value I have a point of reference for how =
certain
> you are based on the number you put there.=20
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --Chris
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> Banghart, John
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:42 AM
> To: Eric Burger; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> Eric,
>=20
> Well, I think you answered your own initial question, but I'm going to =
jump
> in anyway.  :)
>=20
> Generally speaking, I think we want to strike a balance between
> standardization and flexibility.  We are unlikely to arrive at any =
sort of
> one-size-fits-all scheme, no matter how long we talk about it.  =
Instead, we
> should be focusing on solidifying the areas we can all agree on, and =
allow
> flexibility for those that we don't.  It's an age old clich=E9, but =
let's not
> let perfect be the enemy of the good.
>=20
> -John
>=20
> On 2/16/13 12:42 PM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> What is the justification for both numeric and enumerated values=20
>> (low/medium/high)?  In general such a schema is begging for=20
>> interoperability problems.
>>=20
>> I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.  On the We =
Need=20
>> Numbers side is those that actually calculate a percentage or other=20=

>> objective measure in the confidence may want to use those real =
numbers.
>> As well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three=20
>> enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We=20=

>> Need Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0% and 100%, =
tend=20
>> to be arbitrary guesses. Putting a number on this value imparts a =
level=20
>> of specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easier to map=20=

>> 'low' to 'low' than it is to map 0-33 to 'low'.
>>=20
>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>> <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the=20=

>>> numbers.  I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we =
add=20
>>> the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However=20=

>>> for potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> --Chris
>>>=20
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs=20=

>>> with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just =
meant=20
>>> for the exchange)?  The numbers map to low/med/high - for db storage =
-=20
>>> if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, adding =
the=20
>>> 2 additional ones provided.
>>>=20
>>> Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is=20=

>>> doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both =
options?
>>>=20
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>=20
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20=

>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
>>> To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> =46rom a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work=20=

>>> for the people who are going to receive this data if we support both=20=

>>> numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision =
people=20
>>> wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we=20
>>> allow both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of=20=

>>> some sort. I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking=20
>>> database. Having both a numeric score and alpha characters / words=20=

>>> creates issues when trying to interact with the data. I agree that =
we=20
>>> need to support both however I don't think both should be in the =
same=20
>>> field. I would much rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if =
we=20
>>> are going to support 2 different data types.
>>>=20
>>> This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere.
>>> Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution =
expressed=20
>>> as  some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.
>>> Currently there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.
>>>=20
>>> Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC) =20
>>> Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in =
the=20
>>> set should be in the set)  Campaign (how confident are you that all=20=

>>> Indicator_Sets are part of this campaign)  Threat Actor (how =
confident=20
>>> are you that the Campaign is attributed to this Threat Actor)  =
Threat=20
>>> Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT,=20
>>> Crimeware, other)
>>>=20
>>> The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the =
first=20
>>> 2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive =
priority.
>>> Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece=20=

>>> of information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but I=20=

>>> wanted to show where Confidence could be used.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> --Chris
>>>=20
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20=

>>> Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of=20=

>>> the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a=20
>>> simplified schema as such below:
>>>=20
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.
>>>=20
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>
>>>=20
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>
>>>=20
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>
>>>=20
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>
>>>=20
>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D =
 Urgent,
>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>=20
>>> Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated=20
>>> definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the =
analysis.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low,=20=

>>> medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will=20=

>>> want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or=20
>>> decreasing.  If we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot=20
>>> express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the data=20=

>>> being exchanged about the event.
>>>=20
>>> Kathleen included the following in a previous message.
>>>=20
>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>=20
>>> Vs:
>>>=20
>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>=20
>>> I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded=20=

>>> to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is=20=

>>> indeed subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate=20=

>>> confidence index that the sender is trying to convey.
>>>=20
>>> Kent Landfield
>>>=20
>>> McAfee | An Intel Company
>>> Direct: +1.972.963.7096
>>> Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
>>> Web: www.mcafee.com
>>>=20
>>> From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov>
>>> Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
>>> To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, Kathleen Moriarty=20
>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell =
<trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>> Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF=20
>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> Paul,
>>>=20
>>> I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be=20
>>> reduced  within communities that interact frequently.  =
Prioritization=20
>>> of indicators  and response between tightly connected sharing =
partners=20
>>> might require a  more specific level of detail, particularly during =
a=20
>>> crisis situation.
>>>=20
>>> =46rom that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for=20
>>> additional granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as=20=

>>> preferred for broad interoperability.
>>>=20
>>> -John
>>>=20
>>> On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>>>=20
>>> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use =
subjective
>>> terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that=20=

>>> essentially would say something like:
>>>=20
>>> 1-33 =3D Low
>>> 34-67=3D Medium
>>> 68-100=3DHigh
>>>=20
>>> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low,=20
>>> Medium,  High...do we really thing that how High something is makes=20=

>>> that much of a  difference?
>>>=20
>>> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does=20=

>>> Not Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a =
High=20
>>> Meets...your bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all =
the=20
>>> other Meets got
>>> ;-)
>>>=20
>>> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue =
that =20
>>> confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so =
why=20
>>> use  numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hello,
>>>=20
>>> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The=20
>>> representation looks a little different for each, here is an =
example:
>>>=20
>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>=20
>>> Vs:
>>>=20
>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>=20
>>> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear =
from=20
>>> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find=20=

>>> extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the=20
>>> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to=20=

>>> specifying how to select ranges.
>>>=20
>>> Any other opinions?
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kathleen
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>>> To: Brian Trammell
>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, =
Medium,=20
>>> and  Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate=20=

>>> against  the schema.
>>>=20
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell"=20
>>> <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>>=20
>>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to =
build=20
>>> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>>> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would =
mean=20
>>> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports=20=

>>> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had=20=

>>> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I=20=

>>> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and=20
>>> rigorous than it needs to be.)
>>>=20
>>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, =
repeatably=20
>>> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in=20
>>> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess,=20
>>> however educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own=20
>>> scales such that each value generally means the same thing in each=20=

>>> report. Across teams, I don't know.
>>>=20
>>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated=20
>>> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in =
automating=20
>>> a response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good=20
>>> point, though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of
> pointless.
>>>=20
>>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then =
I=20
>>> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a =
note=20
>>> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to=20
>>> high, unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_=20=

>>> of the users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning=20
>>> "yes" and 0 meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual=20=

>>> fact is purely coincidental", then let's consider renaming it =
"percent"
> in 5070-bis.
>>>=20
>>> Best regards,
>>>=20
>>> Brian (as contributor)
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can=20
>>> change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence=20=

>>> rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for=20=

>>> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various=20
>>> markers that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating=20=

>>> the markers meaning.
>>>=20
>>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more=20
>>> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned=20=

>>> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The=20
>>> scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective=20
>>> element to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may=20=

>>> vary from entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need =
to=20
>>> consider who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating=20=

>>> to map to your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts =
on
> this.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kathleen
>>>=20
>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital=20=

>>> point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It =
appears=20
>>> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization=20=

>>> to be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>>=20
>>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels=20=

>>> of urgency.
>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D =
 Urgent,
>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using=20
>>> Confidence the way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and=20=

>>> someone sends me an IoC with a score of 70, what does that mean to=20=

>>> me? What if I am using a scale of
>>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability=20=

>>> to describe something with a consistent language. It really gets =
ugly=20
>>> when we store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values=20
>>> that are numeric as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very=20
>>> problematic.
>>>=20
>>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly=20
>>> recommend that we revisit this at some point.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> --Chris
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;=20
>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>>=20
>>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema=20
>>> allows for you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of =
low,=20
>>> medium, and high.
>>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
>>> If
>>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful=20=

>>> to have guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>>=20
>>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the=20
>>> approaches, so we'll need to keep the option for backwards=20
>>> compatibility and it is nice to keep in flexible options where we=20
>>> can.
>>>=20
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=20=

>>> IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of=20
>>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 =
IP=20
>>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would =
have=20
>>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>>=20
>>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we=20
>>> break it down to more levels than that we would need to provide=20
>>> guidance on scoring, rating, etc. I think most people should be able=20=

>>> to understand low/med/high without having to have a mathematical=20
>>> method for arriving at the level.
>>>=20
>>> Low - I am not sure
>>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>>> High - I am very sure
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> --Chris
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul;=20
>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need =
to=20
>>> deal with large sets of indicators.
>>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be=20=

>>> omitted if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>>=20
>>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence=20
>>> attribute for the reason Chris kindly described.
>>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be =
numerical?
>>> For
>>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",=20=

>>> etc?
>>>=20
>>> Thank you.
>>> Take
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Harrington, Christopher =
[mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE=20
>>> IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have=20=

>>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>>=20
>>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>>=20
>>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute=20=

>>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect=20
>>> science by any means.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> --Chris
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; =
'MILE=20
>>> IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> Hi Take & others,
>>>=20
>>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a=20=

>>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll=20
>>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view=20=

>>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF =
that=20
>>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the=20=

>>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may =
be=20
>>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;=20
>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> I like this discussion.
>>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside=20=

>>> the IOC-related classes.
>>>=20
>>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that=20=

>>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same=20=

>>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you=20=

>>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get=20=

>>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could=20=

>>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents =
that=20
>>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of=20=

>>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I=20=

>>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>>=20
>>> What do others think?
>>>=20
>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=20=

>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off=20=

>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>>> (more details
>>> on
>>> this in my first message).
>>>=20
>>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event =
record,=20
>>> we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based=20
>>> IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>>=20
>>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into=20
>>> guidance in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>>=20
>>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of=20=

>>> the indicator_set_id.
>>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids=20=

>>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any =
other=20
>>> way to express these groupings.
>>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
>>> In
>>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>>=20
>>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or=20=

>>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would =
this=20
>>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of=20
>>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it=20=

>>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and=20
>>> relationships in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry =
about=20
>>> adding it into the current structure.
>>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some=20=

>>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>>=20
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>=20
>>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though =
I=20
>>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have=20
>>> mis-understood some points.
>>>=20
>>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI=20
>>> classes'
>>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information =
as=20
>>> well.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks
>>> Take
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20=

>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a=20
>>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
>>> If
>>> I give you
>>> 2
>>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of=20=

>>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would=20=

>>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> --Chris
>>>=20
>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the=20=

>>> same group ID.
>>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>>=20
>>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or =
Indicators)=20
>>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put =
them=20
>>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go=20
>>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing=20=

>>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the=20
>>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared=20=

>>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a=20=

>>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group =
them=20
>>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something=20
>>> complicated like STIX.
>>>=20
>>> Paul
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE=20=

>>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> Hi Chris,
>>>=20
>>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>>=20
>>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to=20=

>>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including=20=

>>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to=20
>>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for=20=

>>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like=20
>>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes=20=

>>> back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.  It may help=20=

>>> to have the first draft try to address at least some of these issues=20=

>>> so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed=20
>>> solution.
>>>=20
>>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between=20=

>>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that=20=

>>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the=20=

>>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add=20=

>>> new category attribute values for the System class that would =
connect=20
>>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the=20=

>>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list=20=

>>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had=20=

>>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would=20=

>>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an=20
>>> AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some=20=

>>> broader term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus=20
>>> attribute values like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  =
"MalwareDistribution"=20
>>> for added context so you know what to do with the received set of=20
>>> indicators.
>>>=20
>>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of=20
>>> indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a=20
>>> method to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF =
using=20
>>> an attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string=20
>>> value to make the connection points, and add a few indicators that=20=

>>> are commonly shared into the base IODEF.
>>>=20
>>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and=20
>>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help=20=

>>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a=20
>>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in=20
>>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
>>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we=20=

>>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure=20=

>>> for other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the=20=

>>> System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then=20=

>>> at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, =
etc.=20
>>> use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well? =
=20
>>> Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some=20
>>> opinions on this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have=20=

>>> other ideas that may work better.
>>>=20
>>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent=20
>>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values=20=

>>> or something else.
>>>=20
>>> Thank you!
>>> Kathleen
>>>=20
>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the=20=

>>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. =
In=20
>>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to=20=

>>> show are
>>> related:
>>>=20
>>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>>> threat:
>>>       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that=20=

>>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a=20
>>> compromise.
>>>=20
>>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>>> threat:
>>>       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If=20
>>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will=20=

>>> not be present.
>>>=20
>>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario=20
>>> where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to=20
>>> show that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We=20
>>> can't send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember=20
>>> reading.
>>>=20
>>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different=20
>>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to=20=

>>> send both the
>>> MD5
>>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the=20=

>>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we=20=

>>> use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a=20
>>> higher level grouping.
>>>=20
>>> Thoughts?
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> --Chris
>>>=20
>>> Christopher Harrington
>>> Consulting Security Engineer
>>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information =
Lives
>>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>>> Bedford, MA 01730
>>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>>=20
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20=

>>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> All -
>>>=20
>>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from=20=

>>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message=20=

>>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>>=20
>>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine=20=

>>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than =
obfuscation=20
>>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>>=20
>>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from=20=

>>> context information that may also include IP address or other data=20=

>>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to=20
>>> connect sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the=20=

>>> ability to have watchlists that could have several sets of =
indicators=20
>>> included, as well as to connect indicators that may be included in=20=

>>> embedded schemas.
>>>=20
>>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say=20=

>>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to=20
>>> mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward=20=

>>> sharing when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>>=20
>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit=20=

>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off=20=

>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details =
on=20
>>> this in my first message).
>>>=20
>>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical=20=

>>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>>=20
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>=20
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20=

>>> Of C.
>>> Henry Adams & BIE
>>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran=20=

>>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a=20
>>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking=20=

>>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>>=20
>>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>>=20
>>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
>>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>>=20
>>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder=20=

>>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster=20=

>>> or let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to=20=

>>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in=20
>>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the=20
>>> great minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they=20
>>> utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  =
However,=20
>>> their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other=20=

>>> similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of =
concepts=20
>>> that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise =
or=20
>>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>>=20
>>> Just a visionary thought.
>>>=20
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20=

>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20=

>>> prohibited.
>>>=20
>>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with=20=

>>> DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>>=20
>>> Yours Faithfully,
>>>=20
>>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>>> SilentCircle  dsm
>>> 07710 380044
>>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE=20
>>> <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way=20=

>>> was closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,=20
>>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant =
minds=20
>>> in some instances."
>>>=20
>>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it=20=

>>> would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who=20
>>> study this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>>=20
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20=

>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20=

>>> prohibited.
>>>=20
>>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>>> From:
>>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>>> To:
>>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different=20
>>> perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an=20=

>>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is=20
>>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my=20=

>>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This=20=

>>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use=20=

>>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, =
even=20
>>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system=20=

>>> which one I should use as the indicator.
>>>=20
>>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would =
allow=20
>>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit =
to=20
>>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the=20
>>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking=20=

>>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML=20
>>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate=20=

>>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more=20
>>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't=20
>>> considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How =
is=20
>>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>>=20
>>> Paul
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>=20
>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>>=20
>>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>>=20
>>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the=20=

>>> many avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could=20=

>>> you share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now =
in=20
>>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via=20=

>>> SCI."
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>=20
>>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I=20
>>> wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining =
it=20
>>> from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a =
degree=20
>>> what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>=20
>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20=

>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20=

>>> prohibited.
>>>=20
>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>>=20
>>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>>=20
>>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in=20=

>>> this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be=20=

>>> more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>>=20
>>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for=20
>>> non-XML extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be=20
>>> specific to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can=20=

>>> understand more about the included data in most cases.
>>>=20
>>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the=20=

>>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating=20=

>>> on the report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one=20=

>>> level higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the=20
>>> AdditionalData extension point.
>>>=20
>>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think=20=

>>> that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI=20
>>> draft in the Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or=20=

>>> AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could =
either=20
>>> have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that=20=

>>> are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem=20
>>> classes according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
>>>=20
>>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>>=20
>>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the=20
>>> various indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other=20=

>>> schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want=20=

>>> to add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be=20=

>>> indicators?  Is this enough to make the connections or is something=20=

>>> else else needed?  We could add something like an Indicator_ID in=20
>>> RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the reference or GUID=20
>>> identifiers.
>>>=20
>>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are =
not=20
>>> in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and"=20=

>>> "or"
>>> to
>>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group=20
>>> these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically=20=

>>> in multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in=20=

>>> the data format.  If we have cases like this where you need more=20
>>> complex representations, should we use one extension point via the=20=

>>> SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension point? =
=20
>>> Opinions are needed here....
>>>=20
>>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared=20=

>>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all=20=

>>> class that does this and has an extension point off of it in=20
>>> EventData or we could continue to group items in logical places as =
is=20
>>> done now in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined=20
>>> indicators via SCI.  I think I like the latter approach.
>>>=20
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
>>> Henry
>>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>>> To: mile@ietf.org
>>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>=20
>>> Greetings Everyone,
>>>=20
>>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> --------------------------
>>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning =
of=20
>>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the=20=

>>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>>=20
>>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it=20=

>>> could be conveyed without using SCI draft.
>>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey=20=

>>> the indicators.
>>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact=20
>>> class, if needed.
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> --------------------------
>>>=20
>>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>>=20
>>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> -------------------------
>>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with=20=

>>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so=20=

>>> that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may =
be=20
>>> better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>>=20
>>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> ------------------------
>>>=20
>>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the=20
>>> EventData Class.
>>>=20
>>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass=20
>>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to =
simplify=20
>>> this issue?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the=20
>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited=20
>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning=20=

>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=20=

>>> prohibited.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
>> mile@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>=20


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To: Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 07:40:51 -0500
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Should we provide guidance similar or the same as what CIF uses (was posted=
 to the list previously)?  They use direct mapping to 5 levels so that you =
can have ranges of numeric values used from 0-100, low to high.  This would=
 be the easiest solution...

Thanks,
Kathleen
________________________________________
From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Burge=
r [eburger-l@standardstrack.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 7:38 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

If there really is no value to a value, do not let people hurt themselves.

If there is a proprietary reason for a value, we should say what we mean an=
d call it such. For example:

        <confidence rating=3D"low">This is XML so put your NON-INTEROPERABL=
E mumble you want here</confidence>
or
        <confidence rating=3D"high">42</confidence>
or
        <confidence rating=3D"medium"><mydom:meansSomethingToMe>balderdash<=
/mydom:meansSomethingToMe></confidence>

On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:24 AM, "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harring=
ton@emc.com> wrote:

> I would agree that flexibility is something to strive for. However there
> isn't enough in the RFC to make the numeric confidence value understood b=
y
> the recipient and therefore actionable. From the spec:
>
> "numeric.  The element content contains a number that conveys the confide=
nce
> of the data.  The semantics of this number outside the scope of this
> specification"
>
> Based on that I can score my confidence with 1 being most confident and 1=
00
> being least. Perfectly legitimate but would probably mess everybody up. W=
hat
> if my scale is 1000 and yours is 100. I send you something with a score o=
f
> 100 you will think I am absolutely certain when I am only 10% so. Knowing
> how sure the sender is about a piece of data shared is critical. If the
> sender puts an arbitrary number in the field I have no point of reference=
.
> It's meaningless to me.
>
> We spell out what the relative value is for low/med/high. I know those ar=
e
> self-explanatory but they are still spelled out. I would urge that we do =
the
> same for a numeric value. If not there needs to be something added so tha=
t
> in addition to the numeric value I have a point of reference for how cert=
ain
> you are based on the number you put there.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Chris
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Banghart, John
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:42 AM
> To: Eric Burger; MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>
> Eric,
>
> Well, I think you answered your own initial question, but I'm going to ju=
mp
> in anyway.  :)
>
> Generally speaking, I think we want to strike a balance between
> standardization and flexibility.  We are unlikely to arrive at any sort o=
f
> one-size-fits-all scheme, no matter how long we talk about it.  Instead, =
we
> should be focusing on solidifying the areas we can all agree on, and allo=
w
> flexibility for those that we don't.  It's an age old clich=E9, but let's=
 not
> let perfect be the enemy of the good.
>
> -John
>
> On 2/16/13 12:42 PM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> wrote:
>
>> What is the justification for both numeric and enumerated values
>> (low/medium/high)?  In general such a schema is begging for
>> interoperability problems.
>>
>> I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.  On the We Need
>> Numbers side is those that actually calculate a percentage or other
>> objective measure in the confidence may want to use those real numbers.
>> As well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three
>> enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We
>> Need Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0% and 100%, tend
>> to be arbitrary guesses. Putting a number on this value imparts a level
>> of specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easier to map
>> 'low' to 'low' than it is to map 0-33 to 'low'.
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>> <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the
>>> numbers.  I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we add
>>> the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However
>>> for potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>>
>>> If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs
>>> with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just meant
>>> for the exchange)?  The numbers map to low/med/high - for db storage -
>>> if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, adding the
>>> 2 additional ones provided.
>>>
>>> Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is
>>> doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both options?
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
>>> To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> From a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work
>>> for the people who are going to receive this data if we support both
>>> numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people
>>> wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we
>>> allow both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of
>>> some sort. I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking
>>> database. Having both a numeric score and alpha characters / words
>>> creates issues when trying to interact with the data. I agree that we
>>> need to support both however I don't think both should be in the same
>>> field. I would much rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if we
>>> are going to support 2 different data types.
>>>
>>> This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere.
>>> Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed
>>> as  some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.
>>> Currently there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.
>>>
>>> Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)
>>> Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the
>>> set should be in the set)  Campaign (how confident are you that all
>>> Indicator_Sets are part of this campaign)  Threat Actor (how confident
>>> are you that the Campaign is attributed to this Threat Actor)  Threat
>>> Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT,
>>> Crimeware, other)
>>>
>>> The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first
>>> 2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive priori=
ty.
>>> Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece
>>> of information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but I
>>> wanted to show where Confidence could be used.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of
>>> the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a
>>> simplified schema as such below:
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>
>>>
>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  =
Urgent,
>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>
>>> Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated
>>> definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the analysis.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low,
>>> medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will
>>> want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or
>>> decreasing.  If we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot
>>> express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the data
>>> being exchanged about the event.
>>>
>>> Kathleen included the following in a previous message.
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>
>>> Vs:
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>
>>> I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded
>>> to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is
>>> indeed subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate
>>> confidence index that the sender is trying to convey.
>>>
>>> Kent Landfield
>>>
>>> McAfee | An Intel Company
>>> Direct: +1.972.963.7096
>>> Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
>>> Web: www.mcafee.com
>>>
>>> From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov>
>>> Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
>>> To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, Kathleen Moriarty
>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>> Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF
>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be
>>> reduced  within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization
>>> of indicators  and response between tightly connected sharing partners
>>> might require a  more specific level of detail, particularly during a
>>> crisis situation.
>>>
>>> From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for
>>> additional granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as
>>> preferred for broad interoperability.
>>>
>>> -John
>>>
>>> On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>>>
>>> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
>>> terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
>>> essentially would say something like:
>>>
>>> 1-33 =3D Low
>>> 34-67=3D Medium
>>> 68-100=3DHigh
>>>
>>> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low,
>>> Medium,  High...do we really thing that how High something is makes
>>> that much of a  difference?
>>>
>>> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does
>>> Not Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High
>>> Meets...your bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the
>>> other Meets got
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
>>> confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why
>>> use  numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The
>>> representation looks a little different for each, here is an example:
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>
>>> Vs:
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>
>>> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from
>>> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
>>> extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
>>> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
>>> specifying how to select ranges.
>>>
>>> Any other opinions?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>>> To: Brian Trammell
>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium,
>>> and  Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate
>>> against  the schema.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell"
>>> <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>>
>>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build
>>> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>>> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean
>>> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
>>> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
>>> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
>>> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and
>>> rigorous than it needs to be.)
>>>
>>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably
>>> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
>>> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess,
>>> however educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own
>>> scales such that each value generally means the same thing in each
>>> report. Across teams, I don't know.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
>>> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating
>>> a response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good
>>> point, though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of
> pointless.
>>>
>>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I
>>> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note
>>> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to
>>> high, unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_
>>> of the users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning
>>> "yes" and 0 meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual
>>> fact is purely coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent"
> in 5070-bis.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Brian (as contributor)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
>>> change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
>>> rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for
>>> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various
>>> markers that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating
>>> the markers meaning.
>>>
>>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
>>> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned
>>> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
>>> scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective
>>> element to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may
>>> vary from entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to
>>> consider who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating
>>> to map to your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on
> this.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>>
>>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
>>> point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears
>>> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization
>>> to be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>>
>>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels
>>> of urgency.
>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  =
Urgent,
>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using
>>> Confidence the way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and
>>> someone sends me an IoC with a score of 70, what does that mean to
>>> me? What if I am using a scale of
>>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability
>>> to describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
>>> when we store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values
>>> that are numeric as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very
>>> problematic.
>>>
>>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
>>> recommend that we revisit this at some point.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>>
>>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
>>> allows for you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low,
>>> medium, and high.
>>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
>>> If
>>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful
>>> to have guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>>
>>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the
>>> approaches, so we'll need to keep the option for backwards
>>> compatibility and it is nice to keep in flexible options where we
>>> can.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>> IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
>>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
>>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
>>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>>
>>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we
>>> break it down to more levels than that we would need to provide
>>> guidance on scoring, rating, etc. I think most people should be able
>>> to understand low/med/high without having to have a mathematical
>>> method for arriving at the level.
>>>
>>> Low - I am not sure
>>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>>> High - I am very sure
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul;
>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to
>>> deal with large sets of indicators.
>>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
>>> omitted if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>>
>>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
>>> attribute for the reason Chris kindly described.
>>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
>>> For
>>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",
>>> etc?
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>> Take
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>> IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have
>>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>>
>>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>>
>>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
>>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
>>> science by any means.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>> IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Hi Take & others,
>>>
>>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a
>>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
>>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view
>>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that
>>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
>>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be
>>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> I like this discussion.
>>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
>>> the IOC-related classes.
>>>
>>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
>>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
>>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
>>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get
>>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could
>>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that
>>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
>>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I
>>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>>
>>> What do others think?
>>>
>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>>> (more details
>>> on
>>> this in my first message).
>>>
>>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event record,
>>> we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based
>>> IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>>
>>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into
>>> guidance in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>>
>>>
>>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>>
>>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
>>> the indicator_set_id.
>>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
>>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any other
>>> way to express these groupings.
>>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
>>> In
>>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>>
>>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
>>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
>>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
>>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
>>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
>>> relationships in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about
>>> adding it into the current structure.
>>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
>>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though I
>>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
>>> mis-understood some points.
>>>
>>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
>>> classes'
>>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Take
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
>>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
>>> If
>>> I give you
>>> 2
>>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
>>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
>>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
>>> same group ID.
>>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>>
>>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
>>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them
>>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
>>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
>>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
>>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
>>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
>>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them
>>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
>>> complicated like STIX.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>
>>>
>>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE
>>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Hi Chris,
>>>
>>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>>
>>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to
>>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
>>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
>>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
>>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
>>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes
>>> back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.  It may help
>>> to have the first draft try to address at least some of these issues
>>> so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed
>>> solution.
>>>
>>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
>>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
>>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
>>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
>>> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect
>>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
>>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
>>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
>>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
>>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
>>> AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some
>>> broader term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus
>>> attribute values like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution"
>>> for added context so you know what to do with the received set of
>>> indicators.
>>>
>>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
>>> indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a
>>> method to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using
>>> an attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string
>>> value to make the connection points, and add a few indicators that
>>> are commonly shared into the base IODEF.
>>>
>>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
>>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
>>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
>>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
>>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
>>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we
>>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
>>> for other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the
>>> System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then
>>> at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc.
>>> use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?
>>> Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some
>>> opinions on this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have
>>> other ideas that may work better.
>>>
>>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
>>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values
>>> or something else.
>>>
>>> Thank you!
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
>>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
>>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
>>> show are
>>> related:
>>>
>>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>>> threat:
>>>       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
>>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
>>> compromise.
>>>
>>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>>> threat:
>>>       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
>>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
>>> not be present.
>>>
>>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
>>> where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to
>>> show that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We
>>> can't send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember
>>> reading.
>>>
>>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
>>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
>>> send both the
>>> MD5
>>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the
>>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
>>> use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a
>>> higher level grouping.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> Christopher Harrington
>>> Consulting Security Engineer
>>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
>>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>>> Bedford, MA 01730
>>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>>
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> All -
>>>
>>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from
>>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
>>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>>
>>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
>>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
>>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>>
>>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
>>> context information that may also include IP address or other data
>>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to
>>> connect sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the
>>> ability to have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators
>>> included, as well as to connect indicators that may be included in
>>> embedded schemas.
>>>
>>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
>>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to
>>> mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward
>>> sharing when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>>
>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on
>>> this in my first message).
>>>
>>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
>>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of C.
>>> Henry Adams & BIE
>>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran
>>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
>>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking
>>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>>
>>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>>
>>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
>>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>>
>>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
>>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
>>> or let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
>>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
>>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the
>>> great minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they
>>> utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However,
>>> their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other
>>> similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts
>>> that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
>>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>>
>>> Just a visionary thought.
>>>
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>>
>>>
>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>> prohibited.
>>>
>>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
>>> DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>>
>>> Yours Faithfully,
>>>
>>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>>> SilentCircle  dsm
>>> 07710 380044
>>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>>
>>>
>>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>> <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
>>> was closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
>>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds
>>> in some instances."
>>>
>>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
>>> would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who
>>> study this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>>
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>
>>>
>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>> prohibited.
>>>
>>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>>> From:
>>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>>> To:
>>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
>>> perspectiveSlet's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
>>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
>>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
>>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
>>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
>>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even
>>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
>>> which one I should use as the indicator.
>>>
>>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow
>>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to
>>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
>>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
>>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
>>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
>>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>>
>>>
>>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
>>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
>>> considered is the UID portion of thisShow do we use that UID?  How is
>>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>
>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>>
>>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>>
>>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
>>> many avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could
>>> you share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
>>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
>>> SCI."
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
>>> wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it
>>> from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree
>>> what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>
>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>> prohibited.
>>>
>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>>
>>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>>
>>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
>>> this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be
>>> more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>>
>>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
>>> non-XML extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be
>>> specific to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can
>>> understand more about the included data in most cases.
>>>
>>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
>>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating
>>> on the report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one
>>> level higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the
>>> AdditionalData extension point.
>>>
>>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
>>> that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI
>>> draft in the Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or
>>> AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could either
>>> have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that
>>> are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem
>>> classes according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
>>>
>>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>>
>>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
>>> various indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other
>>> schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want
>>> to add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be
>>> indicators?  Is this enough to make the connections or is something
>>> else else needed?  We could add something like an Indicator_ID in
>>> RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the reference or GUID
>>> identifiers.
>>>
>>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not
>>> in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and"
>>> "or"
>>> to
>>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
>>> these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically
>>> in multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in
>>> the data format.  If we have cases like this where you need more
>>> complex representations, should we use one extension point via the
>>> SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension point?
>>> Opinions are needed here....
>>>
>>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
>>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
>>> class that does this and has an extension point off of it in
>>> EventData or we could continue to group items in logical places as is
>>> done now in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined
>>> indicators via SCI.  I think I like the latter approach.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
>>> Henry
>>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>>> To: mile@ietf.org
>>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Greetings Everyone,
>>>
>>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> --------------------------
>>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
>>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
>>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>>
>>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
>>> could be conveyed without using SCI draft.
>>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
>>> the indicators.
>>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
>>> class, if needed.
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> --------------------------
>>>
>>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>>
>>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> -------------------------
>>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
>>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
>>> that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be
>>> better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>>
>>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> ------------------------
>>>
>>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
>>> EventData Class.
>>>
>>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
>>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
>>> this issue?
>>>
>>>
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>
>>>
>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>> prohibited.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
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>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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From john.banghart@nist.gov  Tue Feb 19 06:28:22 2013
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From: "Banghart, John" <john.banghart@nist.gov>
To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:28:10 -0500
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Chris,

I guess I'm envisioning a circumstance where the "meaning" of the values
is agreed to between sharing partners offline.  But you are correct, that
the spec should allow for the that meaning to be characterized.

-John

On 2/19/13 7:24 AM, "Harrington, Christopher"
<Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:

>I would agree that flexibility is something to strive for. However there
>isn't enough in the RFC to make the numeric confidence value understood by
>the recipient and therefore actionable. From the spec:
>
>"numeric.  The element content contains a number that conveys the
>confidence
>of the data.  The semantics of this number outside the scope of this
>specification"
>
>Based on that I can score my confidence with 1 being most confident and
>100
>being least. Perfectly legitimate but would probably mess everybody up.
>What
>if my scale is 1000 and yours is 100. I send you something with a score of
>100 you will think I am absolutely certain when I am only 10% so. Knowing
>how sure the sender is about a piece of data shared is critical. If the
>sender puts an arbitrary number in the field I have no point of reference.
>It's meaningless to me.
>
>We spell out what the relative value is for low/med/high. I know those are
>self-explanatory but they are still spelled out. I would urge that we do
>the
>same for a numeric value. If not there needs to be something added so that
>in addition to the numeric value I have a point of reference for how
>certain
>you are based on the number you put there.
>
>Thanks,
>
>--Chris
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>Banghart, John
>Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:42 AM
>To: Eric Burger; MILE IETF
>Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>
>Eric,
>
>Well, I think you answered your own initial question, but I'm going to
>jump
>in anyway.  :)
>
>Generally speaking, I think we want to strike a balance between
>standardization and flexibility.  We are unlikely to arrive at any sort of
>one-size-fits-all scheme, no matter how long we talk about it.  Instead,
>we
>should be focusing on solidifying the areas we can all agree on, and allow
>flexibility for those that we don't.  It's an age old clich=E9, but let's
>not
>let perfect be the enemy of the good.
>
>-John
>
>On 2/16/13 12:42 PM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> wrote:
>
>>What is the justification for both numeric and enumerated values
>>(low/medium/high)?  In general such a schema is begging for
>>interoperability problems.
>>
>>I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.  On the We Need
>>Numbers side is those that actually calculate a percentage or other
>>objective measure in the confidence may want to use those real numbers.
>>As well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three
>>enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We
>>Need Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0% and 100%, tend
>>to be arbitrary guesses. Putting a number on this value imparts a level
>>of specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easier to map
>>'low' to 'low' than it is to map 0-33 to 'low'.
>>
>>On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>><Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the
>>>numbers.  I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we add
>>>the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However
>>>for potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>>
>>> If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs
>>>with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just meant
>>>for the exchange)?  The numbers map to low/med/high - for db storage -
>>>if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, adding the
>>>2 additional ones provided.
>>>
>>> Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is
>>>doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both options?
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>Of Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
>>> To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> From a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work
>>>for the people who are going to receive this data if we support both
>>>numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people
>>>wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we
>>>allow both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of
>>>some sort. I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking
>>>database. Having both a numeric score and alpha characters / words
>>>creates issues when trying to interact with the data. I agree that we
>>>need to support both however I don't think both should be in the same
>>>field. I would much rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if we
>>>are going to support 2 different data types.
>>>
>>> This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere.
>>>Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed
>>>as  some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.
>>>Currently there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.
>>>
>>> Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)
>>>Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the
>>>set should be in the set)  Campaign (how confident are you that all
>>>Indicator_Sets are part of this campaign)  Threat Actor (how confident
>>>are you that the Campaign is attributed to this Threat Actor)  Threat
>>>Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT,
>>>Crimeware, other)
>>>
>>> The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first
>>>2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive
>>>priority.
>>> Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece
>>>of information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but I
>>>wanted to show where Confidence could be used.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of
>>>the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a
>>>simplified schema as such below:
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>
>>>
>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  =
Urgent,
>>>5 =3D Imminent )
>>>
>>> Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated
>>>definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the analysis.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low,
>>>medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will
>>>want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or
>>>decreasing.  If we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot
>>>express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the data
>>>being exchanged about the event.
>>>
>>> Kathleen included the following in a previous message.
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>
>>> Vs:
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>
>>> I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded
>>>to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is
>>>indeed subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate
>>>confidence index that the sender is trying to convey.
>>>
>>> Kent Landfield
>>>
>>> McAfee | An Intel Company
>>> Direct: +1.972.963.7096
>>> Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
>>> Web: www.mcafee.com
>>>
>>> From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov>
>>> Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
>>> To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, Kathleen Moriarty
>>><kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>> Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF
>>><mile@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be
>>>reduced  within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization
>>>of indicators  and response between tightly connected sharing partners
>>>might require a  more specific level of detail, particularly during a
>>>crisis situation.
>>>
>>> From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for
>>> additional granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as
>>> preferred for broad interoperability.
>>>
>>> -John
>>>
>>> On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>>>
>>> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
>>> terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
>>> essentially would say something like:
>>>
>>> 1-33 =3D Low
>>> 34-67=3D Medium
>>> 68-100=3DHigh
>>>
>>> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low,
>>>Medium,  High...do we really thing that how High something is makes
>>>that much of a  difference?
>>>
>>> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does
>>> Not Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High
>>> Meets...your bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the
>>> other Meets got
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
>>>confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so why
>>>use  numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The
>>> representation looks a little different for each, here is an example:
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>
>>> Vs:
>>>
>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>
>>> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from
>>> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
>>> extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
>>> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
>>> specifying how to select ranges.
>>>
>>> Any other opinions?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>>> To: Brian Trammell
>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium,
>>>and  Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate
>>>against  the schema.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell"
>>> <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>>
>>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build
>>> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>>> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean
>>> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
>>> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
>>> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
>>> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and
>>> rigorous than it needs to be.)
>>>
>>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably
>>> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
>>> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess,
>>> however educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own
>>> scales such that each value generally means the same thing in each
>>> report. Across teams, I don't know.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
>>> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating
>>> a response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good
>>> point, though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of
>pointless.
>>>
>>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I
>>> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note
>>> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to
>>> high, unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_
>>> of the users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning
>>> "yes" and 0 meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual
>>> fact is purely coincidental", then let's consider renaming it "percent"
>in 5070-bis.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Brian (as contributor)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
>>> change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
>>> rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for
>>> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various
>>> markers that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating
>>> the markers meaning.
>>>
>>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
>>> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned
>>> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
>>> scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective
>>> element to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may
>>> vary from entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to
>>> consider who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating
>>> to map to your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on
>this.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>>
>>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
>>> point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears
>>> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization
>>> to be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>>
>>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels
>>> of urgency.
>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D  =
Urgent,
>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using
>>> Confidence the way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and
>>> someone sends me an IoC with a score of 70, what does that mean to
>>> me? What if I am using a scale of
>>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability
>>> to describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
>>> when we store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values
>>> that are numeric as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very
>>> problematic.
>>>
>>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
>>> recommend that we revisit this at some point.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>>
>>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
>>> allows for you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low,
>>> medium, and high.
>>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
>>> If
>>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful
>>> to have guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>>
>>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the
>>> approaches, so we'll need to keep the option for backwards
>>> compatibility and it is nice to keep in flexible options where we
>>> can.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>> IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
>>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
>>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
>>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>>
>>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we
>>> break it down to more levels than that we would need to provide
>>> guidance on scoring, rating, etc. I think most people should be able
>>> to understand low/med/high without having to have a mathematical
>>> method for arriving at the level.
>>>
>>> Low - I am not sure
>>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>>> High - I am very sure
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul;
>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to
>>> deal with large sets of indicators.
>>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
>>> omitted if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>>
>>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
>>> attribute for the reason Chris kindly described.
>>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
>>> For
>>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",
>>> etc?
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>> Take
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>> IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have
>>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>>
>>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>>
>>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
>>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
>>> science by any means.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>> IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Hi Take & others,
>>>
>>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a
>>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
>>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view
>>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that
>>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
>>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be
>>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> I like this discussion.
>>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
>>> the IOC-related classes.
>>>
>>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
>>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
>>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
>>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get
>>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could
>>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that
>>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
>>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I
>>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>>
>>> What do others think?
>>>
>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>>> (more details
>>> on
>>> this in my first message).
>>>
>>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event record,
>>> we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based
>>> IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>>
>>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into
>>> guidance in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>>
>>>
>>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>>
>>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
>>> the indicator_set_id.
>>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
>>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any other
>>> way to express these groupings.
>>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
>>> In
>>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>>
>>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
>>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
>>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
>>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
>>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
>>> relationships in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about
>>> adding it into the current structure.
>>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
>>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though I
>>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
>>> mis-understood some points.
>>>
>>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
>>> classes'
>>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Take
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
>>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
>>> If
>>> I give you
>>> 2
>>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
>>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
>>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
>>> same group ID.
>>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>>
>>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
>>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them
>>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
>>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
>>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
>>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
>>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
>>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them
>>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
>>> complicated like STIX.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>
>>>
>>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE
>>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Hi Chris,
>>>
>>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>>
>>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to
>>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
>>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
>>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
>>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
>>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes
>>> back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.  It may help
>>> to have the first draft try to address at least some of these issues
>>> so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed
>>> solution.
>>>
>>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
>>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
>>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
>>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
>>> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect
>>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
>>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
>>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
>>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
>>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
>>> AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some
>>> broader term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus
>>> attribute values like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution"
>>> for added context so you know what to do with the received set of
>>> indicators.
>>>
>>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
>>> indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a
>>> method to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using
>>> an attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string
>>> value to make the connection points, and add a few indicators that
>>> are commonly shared into the base IODEF.
>>>
>>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
>>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
>>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
>>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
>>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
>>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we
>>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
>>> for other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the
>>> System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then
>>> at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc.
>>> use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?
>>> Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some
>>> opinions on this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have
>>> other ideas that may work better.
>>>
>>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
>>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values
>>> or something else.
>>>
>>> Thank you!
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
>>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
>>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
>>> show are
>>> related:
>>>
>>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>>> threat:
>>>        The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
>>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
>>> compromise.
>>>
>>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>>> threat:
>>>        2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
>>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
>>> not be present.
>>>
>>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
>>> where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to
>>> show that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We
>>> can't send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember
>>> reading.
>>>
>>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
>>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
>>> send both the
>>> MD5
>>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the
>>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
>>> use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a
>>> higher level grouping.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>> Christopher Harrington
>>> Consulting Security Engineer
>>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
>>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>>> Bedford, MA 01730
>>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>>
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> All -
>>>
>>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from
>>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
>>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>>
>>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
>>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
>>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>>
>>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
>>> context information that may also include IP address or other data
>>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to
>>> connect sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the
>>> ability to have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators
>>> included, as well as to connect indicators that may be included in
>>> embedded schemas.
>>>
>>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
>>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to
>>> mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward
>>> sharing when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>>
>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on
>>> this in my first message).
>>>
>>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
>>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of C.
>>> Henry Adams & BIE
>>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>>> To: MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran
>>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
>>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking
>>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>>
>>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>>
>>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
>>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>>
>>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
>>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
>>> or let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
>>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
>>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the
>>> great minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they
>>> utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However,
>>> their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other
>>> similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts
>>> that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
>>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>>
>>> Just a visionary thought.
>>>
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>>
>>>
>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>> prohibited.
>>>
>>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
>>> DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>>
>>> Yours Faithfully,
>>>
>>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>>> SilentCircle  dsm
>>> 07710 380044
>>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>>
>>>
>>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>> <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
>>> was closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
>>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds
>>> in some instances."
>>>
>>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
>>> would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who
>>> study this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>>
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>
>>>
>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>> prohibited.
>>>
>>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>>> From:
>>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>>> To:
>>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
>>> perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
>>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
>>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
>>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
>>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
>>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even
>>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
>>> which one I should use as the indicator.
>>>
>>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow
>>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to
>>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
>>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
>>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
>>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
>>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>>
>>>
>>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
>>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
>>> considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How is
>>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>
>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>>
>>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>>
>>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
>>> many avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could
>>> you share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
>>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
>>> SCI."
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
>>> wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it
>>> from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree
>>> what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>
>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>> prohibited.
>>>
>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>>
>>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>>
>>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
>>> this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be
>>> more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>>
>>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
>>> non-XML extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be
>>> specific to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can
>>> understand more about the included data in most cases.
>>>
>>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
>>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating
>>> on the report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one
>>> level higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the
>>> AdditionalData extension point.
>>>
>>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
>>> that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI
>>> draft in the Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or
>>> AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could either
>>> have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that
>>> are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem
>>> classes according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
>>>
>>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>>
>>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
>>> various indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other
>>> schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want
>>> to add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be
>>> indicators?  Is this enough to make the connections or is something
>>> else else needed?  We could add something like an Indicator_ID in
>>> RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the reference or GUID
>>> identifiers.
>>>
>>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not
>>> in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and"
>>> "or"
>>> to
>>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
>>> these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically
>>> in multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in
>>> the data format.  If we have cases like this where you need more
>>> complex representations, should we use one extension point via the
>>> SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension point?
>>> Opinions are needed here....
>>>
>>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
>>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
>>> class that does this and has an extension point off of it in
>>> EventData or we could continue to group items in logical places as is
>>> done now in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined
>>> indicators via SCI.  I think I like the latter approach.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Kathleen
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
>>> Henry
>>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>>> To: mile@ietf.org
>>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Greetings Everyone,
>>>
>>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> --------------------------
>>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
>>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
>>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>>
>>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
>>> could be conveyed without using SCI draft.
>>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
>>> the indicators.
>>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
>>> class, if needed.
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> --------------------------
>>>
>>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>>
>>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> -------------------------
>>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
>>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
>>> that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be
>>> better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>>
>>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------
>>> ------------------------
>>>
>>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
>>> EventData Class.
>>>
>>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
>>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
>>> this issue?
>>>
>>>
>>> C. Henry Adams
>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>
>>>
>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>> prohibited.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>mile mailing list
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>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>
>_______________________________________________
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>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
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If the proposal is 0-19 =3D low, 20-39 =3D =85, 80-99 =3D high, then why =
do we have the numbers, or why do we have the enumerated type? Either it =
is a number or it is an enumerative value. Having both is asking for =
trouble.

On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:40 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" =
<kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:

> Should we provide guidance similar or the same as what CIF uses (was =
posted to the list previously)?  They use direct mapping to 5 levels so =
that you can have ranges of numeric values used from 0-100, low to high. =
 This would be the easiest solution...
>=20
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
> ________________________________________
> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric =
Burger [eburger-l@standardstrack.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 7:38 AM
> To: MILE IETF
> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>=20
> If there really is no value to a value, do not let people hurt =
themselves.
>=20
> If there is a proprietary reason for a value, we should say what we =
mean and call it such. For example:
>=20
>        <confidence rating=3D"low">This is XML so put your =
NON-INTEROPERABLE mumble you want here</confidence>
> or
>        <confidence rating=3D"high">42</confidence>
> or
>        <confidence =
rating=3D"medium"><mydom:meansSomethingToMe>balderdash</mydom:meansSomethi=
ngToMe></confidence>
>=20
> On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:24 AM, "Harrington, Christopher" =
<Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>=20
>> I would agree that flexibility is something to strive for. However =
there
>> isn't enough in the RFC to make the numeric confidence value =
understood by
>> the recipient and therefore actionable. =46rom the spec:
>>=20
>> "numeric.  The element content contains a number that conveys the =
confidence
>> of the data.  The semantics of this number outside the scope of this
>> specification"
>>=20
>> Based on that I can score my confidence with 1 being most confident =
and 100
>> being least. Perfectly legitimate but would probably mess everybody =
up. What
>> if my scale is 1000 and yours is 100. I send you something with a =
score of
>> 100 you will think I am absolutely certain when I am only 10% so. =
Knowing
>> how sure the sender is about a piece of data shared is critical. If =
the
>> sender puts an arbitrary number in the field I have no point of =
reference.
>> It's meaningless to me.
>>=20
>> We spell out what the relative value is for low/med/high. I know =
those are
>> self-explanatory but they are still spelled out. I would urge that we =
do the
>> same for a numeric value. If not there needs to be something added so =
that
>> in addition to the numeric value I have a point of reference for how =
certain
>> you are based on the number you put there.
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> --Chris
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
>> Banghart, John
>> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:42 AM
>> To: Eric Burger; MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>=20
>> Eric,
>>=20
>> Well, I think you answered your own initial question, but I'm going =
to jump
>> in anyway.  :)
>>=20
>> Generally speaking, I think we want to strike a balance between
>> standardization and flexibility.  We are unlikely to arrive at any =
sort of
>> one-size-fits-all scheme, no matter how long we talk about it.  =
Instead, we
>> should be focusing on solidifying the areas we can all agree on, and =
allow
>> flexibility for those that we don't.  It's an age old clich=E9, but =
let's not
>> let perfect be the enemy of the good.
>>=20
>> -John
>>=20
>> On 2/16/13 12:42 PM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> What is the justification for both numeric and enumerated values
>>> (low/medium/high)?  In general such a schema is begging for
>>> interoperability problems.
>>>=20
>>> I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.  On the We =
Need
>>> Numbers side is those that actually calculate a percentage or other
>>> objective measure in the confidence may want to use those real =
numbers.
>>> As well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three
>>> enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We
>>> Need Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0% and 100%, =
tend
>>> to be arbitrary guesses. Putting a number on this value imparts a =
level
>>> of specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easier to map
>>> 'low' to 'low' than it is to map 0-33 to 'low'.
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>>> <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the
>>>> numbers.  I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we =
add
>>>> the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However
>>>> for potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs
>>>> with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just =
meant
>>>> for the exchange)?  The numbers map to low/med/high - for db =
storage -
>>>> if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, adding =
the
>>>> 2 additional ones provided.
>>>>=20
>>>> Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is
>>>> doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both =
options?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
>>>> To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> =46rom a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra =
work
>>>> for the people who are going to receive this data if we support =
both
>>>> numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision =
people
>>>> wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we
>>>> allow both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of
>>>> some sort. I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking
>>>> database. Having both a numeric score and alpha characters / words
>>>> creates issues when trying to interact with the data. I agree that =
we
>>>> need to support both however I don't think both should be in the =
same
>>>> field. I would much rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if =
we
>>>> are going to support 2 different data types.
>>>>=20
>>>> This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere.
>>>> Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution =
expressed
>>>> as  some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.
>>>> Currently there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.
>>>>=20
>>>> Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)
>>>> Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in =
the
>>>> set should be in the set)  Campaign (how confident are you that all
>>>> Indicator_Sets are part of this campaign)  Threat Actor (how =
confident
>>>> are you that the Campaign is attributed to this Threat Actor)  =
Threat
>>>> Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT,
>>>> Crimeware, other)
>>>>=20
>>>> The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the =
first
>>>> 2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive =
priority.
>>>> Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece
>>>> of information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but =
I
>>>> wanted to show where Confidence could be used.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>> Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis =
of
>>>> the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a
>>>> simplified schema as such below:
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>
>>>>=20
>>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D=
  Urgent,
>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>=20
>>>> Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated
>>>> definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the =
analysis.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a =
low,
>>>> medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will
>>>> want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or
>>>> decreasing.  If we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot
>>>> express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the =
data
>>>> being exchanged about the event.
>>>>=20
>>>> Kathleen included the following in a previous message.
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>>=20
>>>> Vs:
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>>=20
>>>> I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded
>>>> to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that =
is
>>>> indeed subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate
>>>> confidence index that the sender is trying to convey.
>>>>=20
>>>> Kent Landfield
>>>>=20
>>>> McAfee | An Intel Company
>>>> Direct: +1.972.963.7096
>>>> Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
>>>> Web: www.mcafee.com
>>>>=20
>>>> From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
>>>> To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, Kathleen Moriarty
>>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell =
<trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>>> Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF
>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul,
>>>>=20
>>>> I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be
>>>> reduced  within communities that interact frequently.  =
Prioritization
>>>> of indicators  and response between tightly connected sharing =
partners
>>>> might require a  more specific level of detail, particularly during =
a
>>>> crisis situation.
>>>>=20
>>>> =46rom that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for
>>>> additional granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as
>>>> preferred for broad interoperability.
>>>>=20
>>>> -John
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>>>>=20
>>>> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use =
subjective
>>>> terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
>>>> essentially would say something like:
>>>>=20
>>>> 1-33 =3D Low
>>>> 34-67=3D Medium
>>>> 68-100=3DHigh
>>>>=20
>>>> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low,
>>>> Medium,  High...do we really thing that how High something is makes
>>>> that much of a  difference?
>>>>=20
>>>> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does
>>>> Not Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a =
High
>>>> Meets...your bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all =
the
>>>> other Meets got
>>>> ;-)
>>>>=20
>>>> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue =
that
>>>> confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so =
why
>>>> use  numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" =
<kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hello,
>>>>=20
>>>> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The
>>>> representation looks a little different for each, here is an =
example:
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>>=20
>>>> Vs:
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>>=20
>>>> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear =
from
>>>> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others =
find
>>>> extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
>>>> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
>>>> specifying how to select ranges.
>>>>=20
>>>> Any other opinions?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>>>> To: Brian Trammell
>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, =
Medium,
>>>> and  Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot =
validate
>>>> against  the schema.
>>>>=20
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell"
>>>> <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>>>=20
>>>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to =
build
>>>> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>>>> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would =
mean
>>>> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident =
reports
>>>> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports =
had
>>>> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- =
I
>>>> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and
>>>> rigorous than it needs to be.)
>>>>=20
>>>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, =
repeatably
>>>> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
>>>> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess,
>>>> however educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own
>>>> scales such that each value generally means the same thing in each
>>>> report. Across teams, I don't know.
>>>>=20
>>>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
>>>> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in =
automating
>>>> a response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good
>>>> point, though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of
>> pointless.
>>>>=20
>>>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then =
I
>>>> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a =
note
>>>> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to
>>>> high, unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_
>>>> of the users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning
>>>> "yes" and 0 meaning "any resemblance these values may have to =
actual
>>>> fact is purely coincidental", then let's consider renaming it =
"percent"
>> in 5070-bis.
>>>>=20
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>=20
>>>> Brian (as contributor)
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
>>>> change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
>>>> rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful =
for
>>>> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various
>>>> markers that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating
>>>> the markers meaning.
>>>>=20
>>>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
>>>> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have =
learned
>>>> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
>>>> scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective
>>>> element to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may
>>>> vary from entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need =
to
>>>> consider who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating
>>>> to map to your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts =
on
>> this.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
>>>> point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It =
appears
>>>> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization
>>>> to be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>>>=20
>>>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels
>>>> of urgency.
>>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D=
  Urgent,
>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using
>>>> Confidence the way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and
>>>> someone sends me an IoC with a score of 70, what does that mean to
>>>> me? What if I am using a scale of
>>>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the =
ability
>>>> to describe something with a consistent language. It really gets =
ugly
>>>> when we store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values
>>>> that are numeric as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very
>>>> problematic.
>>>>=20
>>>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
>>>> recommend that we revisit this at some point.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>>>=20
>>>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
>>>> allows for you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of =
low,
>>>> medium, and high.
>>>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the =
data.
>>>> If
>>>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be =
helpful
>>>> to have guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>>>=20
>>>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the
>>>> approaches, so we'll need to keep the option for backwards
>>>> compatibility and it is nice to keep in flexible options where we
>>>> can.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>>>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>> IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
>>>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 =
IP
>>>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would =
have
>>>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>>>=20
>>>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we
>>>> break it down to more levels than that we would need to provide
>>>> guidance on scoring, rating, etc. I think most people should be =
able
>>>> to understand low/med/high without having to have a mathematical
>>>> method for arriving at the level.
>>>>=20
>>>> Low - I am not sure
>>>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>>>> High - I am very sure
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need =
to
>>>> deal with large sets of indicators.
>>>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
>>>> omitted if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
>>>> attribute for the reason Chris kindly described.
>>>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be =
numerical?
>>>> For
>>>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong =
confidence",
>>>> etc?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you.
>>>> Take
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher =
[mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>> IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I =
have
>>>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>>>=20
>>>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>>>=20
>>>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
>>>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
>>>> science by any means.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>>>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; =
'MILE
>>>> IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Take & others,
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and =
a
>>>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
>>>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC =
view
>>>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF =
that
>>>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
>>>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may =
be
>>>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> I like this discussion.
>>>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
>>>> the IOC-related classes.
>>>>=20
>>>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
>>>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that =
same
>>>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
>>>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>>>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we =
get
>>>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This =
could
>>>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents =
that
>>>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
>>>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, =
I
>>>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>>>=20
>>>> What do others think?
>>>>=20
>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not =
fit
>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these =
off
>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>>>> (more details
>>>> on
>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>=20
>>>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event =
record,
>>>> we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based
>>>> IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>>>=20
>>>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into
>>>> guidance in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>>>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>>>=20
>>>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
>>>> the indicator_set_id.
>>>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
>>>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any =
other
>>>> way to express these groupings.
>>>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
>>>> In
>>>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>>>=20
>>>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
>>>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would =
this
>>>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
>>>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
>>>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
>>>> relationships in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry =
about
>>>> adding it into the current structure.
>>>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide =
some
>>>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though =
I
>>>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
>>>> mis-understood some points.
>>>>=20
>>>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
>>>> classes'
>>>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information =
as
>>>> well.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Take
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>>>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
>>>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
>>>> If
>>>> I give you
>>>> 2
>>>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication =
of
>>>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
>>>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>>>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
>>>> same group ID.
>>>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>>>=20
>>>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or =
Indicators)
>>>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put =
them
>>>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
>>>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
>>>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
>>>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
>>>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
>>>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group =
them
>>>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
>>>> complicated like STIX.
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>>>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, =
MILE
>>>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>=20
>>>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>>>=20
>>>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added =
to
>>>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
>>>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
>>>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
>>>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
>>>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of =
changes
>>>> back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.  It may =
help
>>>> to have the first draft try to address at least some of these =
issues
>>>> so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed
>>>> solution.
>>>>=20
>>>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
>>>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
>>>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
>>>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
>>>> new category attribute values for the System class that would =
connect
>>>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
>>>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
>>>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
>>>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
>>>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
>>>> AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or =
some
>>>> broader term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus
>>>> attribute values like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  =
"MalwareDistribution"
>>>> for added context so you know what to do with the received set of
>>>> indicators.
>>>>=20
>>>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
>>>> indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a
>>>> method to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF =
using
>>>> an attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string
>>>> value to make the connection points, and add a few indicators that
>>>> are commonly shared into the base IODEF.
>>>>=20
>>>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
>>>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
>>>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
>>>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
>>>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in =
RecordData?
>>>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, =
we
>>>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
>>>> for other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the
>>>> System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  =
Then
>>>> at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, =
etc.
>>>> use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as =
well?
>>>> Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some
>>>> opinions on this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you =
have
>>>> other ideas that may work better.
>>>>=20
>>>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
>>>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these =
values
>>>> or something else.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you!
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
>>>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. =
In
>>>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
>>>> show are
>>>> related:
>>>>=20
>>>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>>>> threat:
>>>>      The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
>>>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
>>>> compromise.
>>>>=20
>>>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>>>> threat:
>>>>      2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
>>>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
>>>> not be present.
>>>>=20
>>>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
>>>> where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to
>>>> show that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We
>>>> can't send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember
>>>> reading.
>>>>=20
>>>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
>>>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
>>>> send both the
>>>> MD5
>>>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but =
the
>>>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
>>>> use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a
>>>> higher level grouping.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> Christopher Harrington
>>>> Consulting Security Engineer
>>>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information =
Lives
>>>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>>>> Bedford, MA 01730
>>>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>>>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>>>=20
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> All -
>>>>=20
>>>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions =
from
>>>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
>>>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>>>=20
>>>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
>>>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than =
obfuscation
>>>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise =
from
>>>> context information that may also include IP address or other data
>>>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to
>>>> connect sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the
>>>> ability to have watchlists that could have several sets of =
indicators
>>>> included, as well as to connect indicators that may be included in
>>>> embedded schemas.
>>>>=20
>>>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
>>>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to
>>>> mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward
>>>> sharing when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>>>=20
>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not =
fit
>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these =
off
>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details =
on
>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>=20
>>>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
>>>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>> Of C.
>>>> Henry Adams & BIE
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first =
ran
>>>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
>>>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from =
tracking
>>>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>>>=20
>>>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>>>=20
>>>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
>>>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>>>=20
>>>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st =
Responder
>>>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
>>>> or let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
>>>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
>>>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the
>>>> great minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they
>>>> utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  =
However,
>>>> their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other
>>>> similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of =
concepts
>>>> that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise =
or
>>>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>>>=20
>>>> Just a visionary thought.
>>>>=20
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>> prohibited.
>>>>=20
>>>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
>>>> DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>>>=20
>>>> Yours Faithfully,
>>>>=20
>>>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>>>> SilentCircle  dsm
>>>> 07710 380044
>>>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>> <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
>>>> was closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
>>>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant =
minds
>>>> in some instances."
>>>>=20
>>>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
>>>> would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who
>>>> study this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>>>=20
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>> prohibited.
>>>>=20
>>>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>>>> From:
>>>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>>>> To:
>>>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>>>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
>>>> perspectiveSlet's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
>>>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
>>>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
>>>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  =
This
>>>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to =
use
>>>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, =
even
>>>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
>>>> which one I should use as the indicator.
>>>>=20
>>>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would =
allow
>>>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit =
to
>>>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
>>>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just =
thinking
>>>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
>>>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
>>>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
>>>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
>>>> considered is the UID portion of thisShow do we use that UID?  How =
is
>>>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>=20
>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>>>=20
>>>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>>>=20
>>>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
>>>> many avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  =
could
>>>> you share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now =
in
>>>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
>>>> SCI."
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>=20
>>>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
>>>> wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining =
it
>>>> from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a =
degree
>>>> what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>=20
>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>> prohibited.
>>>>=20
>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>>>=20
>>>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
>>>> this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may =
be
>>>> more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>>>=20
>>>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
>>>> non-XML extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be
>>>> specific to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can
>>>> understand more about the included data in most cases.
>>>>=20
>>>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
>>>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence =
rating
>>>> on the report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be =
one
>>>> level higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the
>>>> AdditionalData extension point.
>>>>=20
>>>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
>>>> that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI
>>>> draft in the Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem =
or
>>>> AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could =
either
>>>> have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that
>>>> are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem
>>>> classes according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
>>>>=20
>>>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>>>=20
>>>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
>>>> various indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other
>>>> schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want
>>>> to add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be
>>>> indicators?  Is this enough to make the connections or is something
>>>> else else needed?  We could add something like an Indicator_ID in
>>>> RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the reference or GUID
>>>> identifiers.
>>>>=20
>>>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are =
not
>>>> in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and"
>>>> "or"
>>>> to
>>>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
>>>> these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit =
logically
>>>> in multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in
>>>> the data format.  If we have cases like this where you need more
>>>> complex representations, should we use one extension point via the
>>>> SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension =
point?
>>>> Opinions are needed here....
>>>>=20
>>>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
>>>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
>>>> class that does this and has an extension point off of it in
>>>> EventData or we could continue to group items in logical places as =
is
>>>> done now in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined
>>>> indicators via SCI.  I think I like the latter approach.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
>>>> Henry
>>>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>>>> To: mile@ietf.org
>>>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Greetings Everyone,
>>>>=20
>>>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> --------------------------
>>>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning =
of
>>>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
>>>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>>>=20
>>>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
>>>> could be conveyed without using SCI draft.
>>>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
>>>> the indicators.
>>>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
>>>> class, if needed.
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> --------------------------
>>>>=20
>>>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>>>=20
>>>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> -------------------------
>>>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
>>>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
>>>> that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may =
be
>>>> better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> ------------------------
>>>>=20
>>>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
>>>> EventData Class.
>>>>=20
>>>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
>>>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to =
simplify
>>>> this issue?
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>> prohibited.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
>> mile@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> mile mailing list
> mile@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>=20


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That's the purpose of allowing arbitrary (or, possibly well defined) =
values to the <confidence> tag. You can go entirely off the reservation =
and make up stuff, but you can also create a standard name space to =
promote interoperability. Going this route also lets you experiment and =
then pick what does work in the wild, instead of us spending the next =
two years arguing over what a confidence of 27 means.

On Feb 19, 2013, at 9:28 AM, "Banghart, John" <john.banghart@nist.gov> =
wrote:

> Chris,
>=20
> I guess I'm envisioning a circumstance where the "meaning" of the =
values
> is agreed to between sharing partners offline.  But you are correct, =
that
> the spec should allow for the that meaning to be characterized.
>=20
> -John
>=20
> On 2/19/13 7:24 AM, "Harrington, Christopher"
> <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>=20
>> I would agree that flexibility is something to strive for. However =
there
>> isn't enough in the RFC to make the numeric confidence value =
understood by
>> the recipient and therefore actionable. =46rom the spec:
>>=20
>> "numeric.  The element content contains a number that conveys the
>> confidence
>> of the data.  The semantics of this number outside the scope of this
>> specification"
>>=20
>> Based on that I can score my confidence with 1 being most confident =
and
>> 100
>> being least. Perfectly legitimate but would probably mess everybody =
up.
>> What
>> if my scale is 1000 and yours is 100. I send you something with a =
score of
>> 100 you will think I am absolutely certain when I am only 10% so. =
Knowing
>> how sure the sender is about a piece of data shared is critical. If =
the
>> sender puts an arbitrary number in the field I have no point of =
reference.
>> It's meaningless to me.
>>=20
>> We spell out what the relative value is for low/med/high. I know =
those are
>> self-explanatory but they are still spelled out. I would urge that we =
do
>> the
>> same for a numeric value. If not there needs to be something added so =
that
>> in addition to the numeric value I have a point of reference for how
>> certain
>> you are based on the number you put there.
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> --Chris
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
>> Banghart, John
>> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:42 AM
>> To: Eric Burger; MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>=20
>> Eric,
>>=20
>> Well, I think you answered your own initial question, but I'm going =
to
>> jump
>> in anyway.  :)
>>=20
>> Generally speaking, I think we want to strike a balance between
>> standardization and flexibility.  We are unlikely to arrive at any =
sort of
>> one-size-fits-all scheme, no matter how long we talk about it.  =
Instead,
>> we
>> should be focusing on solidifying the areas we can all agree on, and =
allow
>> flexibility for those that we don't.  It's an age old clich=E9, but =
let's
>> not
>> let perfect be the enemy of the good.
>>=20
>> -John
>>=20
>> On 2/16/13 12:42 PM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> What is the justification for both numeric and enumerated values
>>> (low/medium/high)?  In general such a schema is begging for
>>> interoperability problems.
>>>=20
>>> I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.  On the We =
Need
>>> Numbers side is those that actually calculate a percentage or other
>>> objective measure in the confidence may want to use those real =
numbers.
>>> As well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three
>>> enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We
>>> Need Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0% and 100%, =
tend
>>> to be arbitrary guesses. Putting a number on this value imparts a =
level
>>> of specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easier to map
>>> 'low' to 'low' than it is to map 0-33 to 'low'.
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>>> <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the
>>>> numbers.  I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we =
add
>>>> the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However
>>>> for potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs
>>>> with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just =
meant
>>>> for the exchange)?  The numbers map to low/med/high - for db =
storage -
>>>> if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, adding =
the
>>>> 2 additional ones provided.
>>>>=20
>>>> Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is
>>>> doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both =
options?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
>>>> To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> =46rom a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra =
work
>>>> for the people who are going to receive this data if we support =
both
>>>> numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision =
people
>>>> wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we
>>>> allow both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of
>>>> some sort. I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking
>>>> database. Having both a numeric score and alpha characters / words
>>>> creates issues when trying to interact with the data. I agree that =
we
>>>> need to support both however I don't think both should be in the =
same
>>>> field. I would much rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if =
we
>>>> are going to support 2 different data types.
>>>>=20
>>>> This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere.
>>>> Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution =
expressed
>>>> as  some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.
>>>> Currently there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.
>>>>=20
>>>> Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)
>>>> Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in =
the
>>>> set should be in the set)  Campaign (how confident are you that all
>>>> Indicator_Sets are part of this campaign)  Threat Actor (how =
confident
>>>> are you that the Campaign is attributed to this Threat Actor)  =
Threat
>>>> Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT,
>>>> Crimeware, other)
>>>>=20
>>>> The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the =
first
>>>> 2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive
>>>> priority.
>>>> Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece
>>>> of information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but =
I
>>>> wanted to show where Confidence could be used.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>> Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis =
of
>>>> the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a
>>>> simplified schema as such below:
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>
>>>>=20
>>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D=
  Urgent,
>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>=20
>>>> Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated
>>>> definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the =
analysis.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a =
low,
>>>> medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will
>>>> want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or
>>>> decreasing.  If we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot
>>>> express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the =
data
>>>> being exchanged about the event.
>>>>=20
>>>> Kathleen included the following in a previous message.
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>>=20
>>>> Vs:
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>>=20
>>>> I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded
>>>> to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that =
is
>>>> indeed subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate
>>>> confidence index that the sender is trying to convey.
>>>>=20
>>>> Kent Landfield
>>>>=20
>>>> McAfee | An Intel Company
>>>> Direct: +1.972.963.7096
>>>> Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
>>>> Web: www.mcafee.com
>>>>=20
>>>> From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
>>>> To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, Kathleen Moriarty
>>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell =
<trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>>> Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF
>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul,
>>>>=20
>>>> I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be
>>>> reduced  within communities that interact frequently.  =
Prioritization
>>>> of indicators  and response between tightly connected sharing =
partners
>>>> might require a  more specific level of detail, particularly during =
a
>>>> crisis situation.
>>>>=20
>>>> =46rom that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for
>>>> additional granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as
>>>> preferred for broad interoperability.
>>>>=20
>>>> -John
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>>>>=20
>>>> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use =
subjective
>>>> terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
>>>> essentially would say something like:
>>>>=20
>>>> 1-33 =3D Low
>>>> 34-67=3D Medium
>>>> 68-100=3DHigh
>>>>=20
>>>> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low,
>>>> Medium,  High...do we really thing that how High something is makes
>>>> that much of a  difference?
>>>>=20
>>>> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does
>>>> Not Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a =
High
>>>> Meets...your bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all =
the
>>>> other Meets got
>>>> ;-)
>>>>=20
>>>> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue =
that
>>>> confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so =
why
>>>> use  numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" =
<kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hello,
>>>>=20
>>>> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The
>>>> representation looks a little different for each, here is an =
example:
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>>=20
>>>> Vs:
>>>>=20
>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>>=20
>>>> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear =
from
>>>> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others =
find
>>>> extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
>>>> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
>>>> specifying how to select ranges.
>>>>=20
>>>> Any other opinions?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>>>> To: Brian Trammell
>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, =
Medium,
>>>> and  Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot =
validate
>>>> against  the schema.
>>>>=20
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell"
>>>> <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>>>=20
>>>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to =
build
>>>> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>>>> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would =
mean
>>>> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident =
reports
>>>> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports =
had
>>>> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- =
I
>>>> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and
>>>> rigorous than it needs to be.)
>>>>=20
>>>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, =
repeatably
>>>> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
>>>> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess,
>>>> however educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own
>>>> scales such that each value generally means the same thing in each
>>>> report. Across teams, I don't know.
>>>>=20
>>>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
>>>> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in =
automating
>>>> a response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good
>>>> point, though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of
>> pointless.
>>>>=20
>>>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then =
I
>>>> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a =
note
>>>> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to
>>>> high, unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_
>>>> of the users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning
>>>> "yes" and 0 meaning "any resemblance these values may have to =
actual
>>>> fact is purely coincidental", then let's consider renaming it =
"percent"
>> in 5070-bis.
>>>>=20
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>=20
>>>> Brian (as contributor)
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
>>>> change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
>>>> rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful =
for
>>>> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various
>>>> markers that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating
>>>> the markers meaning.
>>>>=20
>>>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
>>>> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have =
learned
>>>> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
>>>> scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective
>>>> element to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may
>>>> vary from entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need =
to
>>>> consider who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating
>>>> to map to your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts =
on
>> this.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
>>>> point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It =
appears
>>>> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization
>>>> to be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>>>=20
>>>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels
>>>> of urgency.
>>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D=
  Urgent,
>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using
>>>> Confidence the way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and
>>>> someone sends me an IoC with a score of 70, what does that mean to
>>>> me? What if I am using a scale of
>>>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the =
ability
>>>> to describe something with a consistent language. It really gets =
ugly
>>>> when we store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values
>>>> that are numeric as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very
>>>> problematic.
>>>>=20
>>>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
>>>> recommend that we revisit this at some point.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>>>=20
>>>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
>>>> allows for you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of =
low,
>>>> medium, and high.
>>>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the =
data.
>>>> If
>>>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be =
helpful
>>>> to have guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>>>=20
>>>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the
>>>> approaches, so we'll need to keep the option for backwards
>>>> compatibility and it is nice to keep in flexible options where we
>>>> can.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>>>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>> IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
>>>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 =
IP
>>>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would =
have
>>>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>>>=20
>>>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we
>>>> break it down to more levels than that we would need to provide
>>>> guidance on scoring, rating, etc. I think most people should be =
able
>>>> to understand low/med/high without having to have a mathematical
>>>> method for arriving at the level.
>>>>=20
>>>> Low - I am not sure
>>>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>>>> High - I am very sure
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need =
to
>>>> deal with large sets of indicators.
>>>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
>>>> omitted if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
>>>> attribute for the reason Chris kindly described.
>>>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be =
numerical?
>>>> For
>>>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong =
confidence",
>>>> etc?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you.
>>>> Take
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher =
[mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>> IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I =
have
>>>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>>>=20
>>>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>>>=20
>>>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
>>>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
>>>> science by any means.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>>>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; =
'MILE
>>>> IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Take & others,
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and =
a
>>>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
>>>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC =
view
>>>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF =
that
>>>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
>>>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may =
be
>>>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> I like this discussion.
>>>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
>>>> the IOC-related classes.
>>>>=20
>>>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
>>>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that =
same
>>>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
>>>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>>>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we =
get
>>>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This =
could
>>>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents =
that
>>>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
>>>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, =
I
>>>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>>>=20
>>>> What do others think?
>>>>=20
>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not =
fit
>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these =
off
>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>>>> (more details
>>>> on
>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>=20
>>>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event =
record,
>>>> we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based
>>>> IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>>>=20
>>>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into
>>>> guidance in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>>>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>>>=20
>>>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
>>>> the indicator_set_id.
>>>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
>>>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any =
other
>>>> way to express these groupings.
>>>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
>>>> In
>>>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>>>=20
>>>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
>>>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would =
this
>>>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
>>>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
>>>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
>>>> relationships in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry =
about
>>>> adding it into the current structure.
>>>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide =
some
>>>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though =
I
>>>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
>>>> mis-understood some points.
>>>>=20
>>>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
>>>> classes'
>>>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information =
as
>>>> well.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Take
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>>>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
>>>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
>>>> If
>>>> I give you
>>>> 2
>>>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication =
of
>>>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
>>>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>>>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
>>>> same group ID.
>>>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>>>=20
>>>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or =
Indicators)
>>>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put =
them
>>>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
>>>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
>>>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
>>>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
>>>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
>>>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group =
them
>>>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
>>>> complicated like STIX.
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>>>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, =
MILE
>>>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>=20
>>>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>>>=20
>>>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added =
to
>>>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
>>>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
>>>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
>>>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
>>>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of =
changes
>>>> back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.  It may =
help
>>>> to have the first draft try to address at least some of these =
issues
>>>> so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed
>>>> solution.
>>>>=20
>>>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
>>>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
>>>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
>>>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
>>>> new category attribute values for the System class that would =
connect
>>>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
>>>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
>>>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
>>>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
>>>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
>>>> AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or =
some
>>>> broader term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus
>>>> attribute values like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  =
"MalwareDistribution"
>>>> for added context so you know what to do with the received set of
>>>> indicators.
>>>>=20
>>>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
>>>> indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a
>>>> method to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF =
using
>>>> an attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string
>>>> value to make the connection points, and add a few indicators that
>>>> are commonly shared into the base IODEF.
>>>>=20
>>>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
>>>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
>>>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
>>>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
>>>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in =
RecordData?
>>>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, =
we
>>>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
>>>> for other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the
>>>> System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  =
Then
>>>> at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, =
etc.
>>>> use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as =
well?
>>>> Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some
>>>> opinions on this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you =
have
>>>> other ideas that may work better.
>>>>=20
>>>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
>>>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these =
values
>>>> or something else.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you!
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
>>>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. =
In
>>>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
>>>> show are
>>>> related:
>>>>=20
>>>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>>>> threat:
>>>>       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
>>>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
>>>> compromise.
>>>>=20
>>>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>>>> threat:
>>>>       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
>>>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
>>>> not be present.
>>>>=20
>>>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
>>>> where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to
>>>> show that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We
>>>> can't send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember
>>>> reading.
>>>>=20
>>>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
>>>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
>>>> send both the
>>>> MD5
>>>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but =
the
>>>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
>>>> use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a
>>>> higher level grouping.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> --Chris
>>>>=20
>>>> Christopher Harrington
>>>> Consulting Security Engineer
>>>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information =
Lives
>>>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>>>> Bedford, MA 01730
>>>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>>>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>>>=20
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> All -
>>>>=20
>>>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions =
from
>>>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
>>>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>>>=20
>>>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
>>>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than =
obfuscation
>>>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise =
from
>>>> context information that may also include IP address or other data
>>>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to
>>>> connect sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the
>>>> ability to have watchlists that could have several sets of =
indicators
>>>> included, as well as to connect indicators that may be included in
>>>> embedded schemas.
>>>>=20
>>>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
>>>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to
>>>> mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward
>>>> sharing when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>>>=20
>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not =
fit
>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these =
off
>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details =
on
>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>=20
>>>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
>>>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>>=20
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>>> Of C.
>>>> Henry Adams & BIE
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first =
ran
>>>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
>>>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from =
tracking
>>>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>>>=20
>>>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>>>=20
>>>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
>>>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>>>=20
>>>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st =
Responder
>>>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
>>>> or let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
>>>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
>>>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the
>>>> great minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they
>>>> utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  =
However,
>>>> their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other
>>>> similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of =
concepts
>>>> that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise =
or
>>>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>>>=20
>>>> Just a visionary thought.
>>>>=20
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>> prohibited.
>>>>=20
>>>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
>>>> DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>>>=20
>>>> Yours Faithfully,
>>>>=20
>>>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>>>> SilentCircle  dsm
>>>> 07710 380044
>>>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>> <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
>>>> was closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
>>>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant =
minds
>>>> in some instances."
>>>>=20
>>>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
>>>> would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who
>>>> study this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>>>=20
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>> prohibited.
>>>>=20
>>>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>>>> From:
>>>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>>>> To:
>>>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>>>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
>>>> perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about =
an
>>>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
>>>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
>>>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  =
This
>>>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to =
use
>>>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, =
even
>>>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
>>>> which one I should use as the indicator.
>>>>=20
>>>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would =
allow
>>>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit =
to
>>>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
>>>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just =
thinking
>>>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
>>>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
>>>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
>>>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
>>>> considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  =
How is
>>>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>=20
>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>>>=20
>>>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>>>=20
>>>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
>>>> many avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  =
could
>>>> you share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now =
in
>>>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
>>>> SCI."
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>=20
>>>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
>>>> wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining =
it
>>>> from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a =
degree
>>>> what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>=20
>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>> prohibited.
>>>>=20
>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>>>=20
>>>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
>>>> this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may =
be
>>>> more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>>>=20
>>>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
>>>> non-XML extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be
>>>> specific to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can
>>>> understand more about the included data in most cases.
>>>>=20
>>>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
>>>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence =
rating
>>>> on the report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be =
one
>>>> level higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the
>>>> AdditionalData extension point.
>>>>=20
>>>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
>>>> that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI
>>>> draft in the Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem =
or
>>>> AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could =
either
>>>> have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that
>>>> are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem
>>>> classes according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
>>>>=20
>>>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>>>=20
>>>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
>>>> various indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other
>>>> schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want
>>>> to add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be
>>>> indicators?  Is this enough to make the connections or is something
>>>> else else needed?  We could add something like an Indicator_ID in
>>>> RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the reference or GUID
>>>> identifiers.
>>>>=20
>>>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are =
not
>>>> in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and"
>>>> "or"
>>>> to
>>>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
>>>> these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit =
logically
>>>> in multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in
>>>> the data format.  If we have cases like this where you need more
>>>> complex representations, should we use one extension point via the
>>>> SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension =
point?
>>>> Opinions are needed here....
>>>>=20
>>>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
>>>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
>>>> class that does this and has an extension point off of it in
>>>> EventData or we could continue to group items in logical places as =
is
>>>> done now in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined
>>>> indicators via SCI.  I think I like the latter approach.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
>>>> Henry
>>>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>>>> To: mile@ietf.org
>>>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>=20
>>>> Greetings Everyone,
>>>>=20
>>>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> --------------------------
>>>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning =
of
>>>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
>>>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>>>=20
>>>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
>>>> could be conveyed without using SCI draft.
>>>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
>>>> the indicators.
>>>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
>>>> class, if needed.
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> --------------------------
>>>>=20
>>>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>>>=20
>>>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> -------------------------
>>>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
>>>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
>>>> that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may =
be
>>>> better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>> ------------------------
>>>>=20
>>>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
>>>> EventData Class.
>>>>=20
>>>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
>>>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to =
simplify
>>>> this issue?
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>> prohibited.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
>> mile@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>=20
>=20


From john.banghart@nist.gov  Tue Feb 19 06:52:30 2013
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From: "Banghart, John" <john.banghart@nist.gov>
To: Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:52:10 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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I think we agree.

-John

On 2/19/13 9:45 AM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> wrote:

>That's the purpose of allowing arbitrary (or, possibly well defined)
>values to the <confidence> tag. You can go entirely off the reservation
>and make up stuff, but you can also create a standard name space to
>promote interoperability. Going this route also lets you experiment and
>then pick what does work in the wild, instead of us spending the next two
>years arguing over what a confidence of 27 means.
>
>On Feb 19, 2013, at 9:28 AM, "Banghart, John" <john.banghart@nist.gov>
>wrote:
>
>> Chris,
>>
>> I guess I'm envisioning a circumstance where the "meaning" of the values
>> is agreed to between sharing partners offline.  But you are correct,
>>that
>> the spec should allow for the that meaning to be characterized.
>>
>> -John
>>
>> On 2/19/13 7:24 AM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>> <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I would agree that flexibility is something to strive for. However
>>>there
>>> isn't enough in the RFC to make the numeric confidence value
>>>understood by
>>> the recipient and therefore actionable. From the spec:
>>>
>>> "numeric.  The element content contains a number that conveys the
>>> confidence
>>> of the data.  The semantics of this number outside the scope of this
>>> specification"
>>>
>>> Based on that I can score my confidence with 1 being most confident and
>>> 100
>>> being least. Perfectly legitimate but would probably mess everybody up.
>>> What
>>> if my scale is 1000 and yours is 100. I send you something with a
>>>score of
>>> 100 you will think I am absolutely certain when I am only 10% so.
>>>Knowing
>>> how sure the sender is about a piece of data shared is critical. If the
>>> sender puts an arbitrary number in the field I have no point of
>>>reference.
>>> It's meaningless to me.
>>>
>>> We spell out what the relative value is for low/med/high. I know those
>>>are
>>> self-explanatory but they are still spelled out. I would urge that we
>>>do
>>> the
>>> same for a numeric value. If not there needs to be something added so
>>>that
>>> in addition to the numeric value I have a point of reference for how
>>> certain
>>> you are based on the number you put there.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Banghart, John
>>> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:42 AM
>>> To: Eric Burger; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Eric,
>>>
>>> Well, I think you answered your own initial question, but I'm going to
>>> jump
>>> in anyway.  :)
>>>
>>> Generally speaking, I think we want to strike a balance between
>>> standardization and flexibility.  We are unlikely to arrive at any
>>>sort of
>>> one-size-fits-all scheme, no matter how long we talk about it.
>>>Instead,
>>> we
>>> should be focusing on solidifying the areas we can all agree on, and
>>>allow
>>> flexibility for those that we don't.  It's an age old clich=E9, but let=
's
>>> not
>>> let perfect be the enemy of the good.
>>>
>>> -John
>>>
>>> On 2/16/13 12:42 PM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is the justification for both numeric and enumerated values
>>>> (low/medium/high)?  In general such a schema is begging for
>>>> interoperability problems.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.  On the We Need
>>>> Numbers side is those that actually calculate a percentage or other
>>>> objective measure in the confidence may want to use those real
>>>>numbers.
>>>> As well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three
>>>> enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We
>>>> Need Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0% and 100%,
>>>>tend
>>>> to be arbitrary guesses. Putting a number on this value imparts a
>>>>level
>>>> of specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easier to map
>>>> 'low' to 'low' than it is to map 0-33 to 'low'.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>>>> <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the
>>>>> numbers.  I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we
>>>>>add
>>>>> the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However
>>>>> for potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs
>>>>> with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just
>>>>>meant
>>>>> for the exchange)?  The numbers map to low/med/high - for db storage
>>>>>-
>>>>> if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, adding the
>>>>> 2 additional ones provided.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is
>>>>> doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both
>>>>>options?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
>>>>> To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> From a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work
>>>>> for the people who are going to receive this data if we support both
>>>>> numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people
>>>>> wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we
>>>>> allow both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of
>>>>> some sort. I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking
>>>>> database. Having both a numeric score and alpha characters / words
>>>>> creates issues when trying to interact with the data. I agree that we
>>>>> need to support both however I don't think both should be in the same
>>>>> field. I would much rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if
>>>>>we
>>>>> are going to support 2 different data types.
>>>>>
>>>>> This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere.
>>>>> Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed
>>>>> as  some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.
>>>>> Currently there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)
>>>>> Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the
>>>>> set should be in the set)  Campaign (how confident are you that all
>>>>> Indicator_Sets are part of this campaign)  Threat Actor (how
>>>>>confident
>>>>> are you that the Campaign is attributed to this Threat Actor)  Threat
>>>>> Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT,
>>>>> Crimeware, other)
>>>>>
>>>>> The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first
>>>>> 2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive
>>>>> priority.
>>>>> Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece
>>>>> of information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but I
>>>>> wanted to show where Confidence could be used.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of
>>>>> the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a
>>>>> simplified schema as such below:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>
>>>>>
>>>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D
>>>>>Urgent,
>>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated
>>>>> definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the
>>>>>analysis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low,
>>>>> medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will
>>>>> want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or
>>>>> decreasing.  If we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot
>>>>> express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the data
>>>>> being exchanged about the event.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kathleen included the following in a previous message.
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vs:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>>>
>>>>> I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded
>>>>> to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is
>>>>> indeed subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate
>>>>> confidence index that the sender is trying to convey.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kent Landfield
>>>>>
>>>>> McAfee | An Intel Company
>>>>> Direct: +1.972.963.7096
>>>>> Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
>>>>> Web: www.mcafee.com
>>>>>
>>>>> From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
>>>>> To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, Kathleen Moriarty
>>>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>>>> Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF
>>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be
>>>>> reduced  within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization
>>>>> of indicators  and response between tightly connected sharing
>>>>>partners
>>>>> might require a  more specific level of detail, particularly during a
>>>>> crisis situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for
>>>>> additional granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as
>>>>> preferred for broad interoperability.
>>>>>
>>>>> -John
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
>>>>> terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
>>>>> essentially would say something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1-33 =3D Low
>>>>> 34-67=3D Medium
>>>>> 68-100=3DHigh
>>>>>
>>>>> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low,
>>>>> Medium,  High...do we really thing that how High something is makes
>>>>> that much of a  difference?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does
>>>>> Not Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High
>>>>> Meets...your bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the
>>>>> other Meets got
>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
>>>>> confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so
>>>>>why
>>>>> use  numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The
>>>>> representation looks a little different for each, here is an example:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vs:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>>>
>>>>> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from
>>>>> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
>>>>> extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
>>>>> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
>>>>> specifying how to select ranges.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any other opinions?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>>>>> To: Brian Trammell
>>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium,
>>>>> and  Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate
>>>>> against  the schema.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell"
>>>>> <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build
>>>>> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>>>>> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean
>>>>> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
>>>>> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
>>>>> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
>>>>> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and
>>>>> rigorous than it needs to be.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably
>>>>> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
>>>>> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess,
>>>>> however educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own
>>>>> scales such that each value generally means the same thing in each
>>>>> report. Across teams, I don't know.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
>>>>> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating
>>>>> a response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good
>>>>> point, though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of
>>> pointless.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I
>>>>> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note
>>>>> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to
>>>>> high, unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_
>>>>> of the users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning
>>>>> "yes" and 0 meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual
>>>>> fact is purely coincidental", then let's consider renaming it
>>>>>"percent"
>>> in 5070-bis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian (as contributor)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>>>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
>>>>> change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
>>>>> rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for
>>>>> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various
>>>>> markers that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating
>>>>> the markers meaning.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
>>>>> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned
>>>>> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
>>>>> scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective
>>>>> element to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may
>>>>> vary from entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to
>>>>> consider who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating
>>>>> to map to your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on
>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
>>>>> point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears
>>>>> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization
>>>>> to be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels
>>>>> of urgency.
>>>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D
>>>>>Urgent,
>>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using
>>>>> Confidence the way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and
>>>>> someone sends me an IoC with a score of 70, what does that mean to
>>>>> me? What if I am using a scale of
>>>>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability
>>>>> to describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
>>>>> when we store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values
>>>>> that are numeric as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very
>>>>> problematic.
>>>>>
>>>>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
>>>>> recommend that we revisit this at some point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
>>>>> allows for you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low,
>>>>> medium, and high.
>>>>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
>>>>> If
>>>>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful
>>>>> to have guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the
>>>>> approaches, so we'll need to keep the option for backwards
>>>>> compatibility and it is nice to keep in flexible options where we
>>>>> can.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>>>>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
>>>>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
>>>>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
>>>>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>>>>
>>>>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we
>>>>> break it down to more levels than that we would need to provide
>>>>> guidance on scoring, rating, etc. I think most people should be able
>>>>> to understand low/med/high without having to have a mathematical
>>>>> method for arriving at the level.
>>>>>
>>>>> Low - I am not sure
>>>>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>>>>> High - I am very sure
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to
>>>>> deal with large sets of indicators.
>>>>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
>>>>> omitted if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
>>>>> attribute for the reason Chris kindly described.
>>>>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
>>>>> For
>>>>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",
>>>>> etc?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>> Take
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have
>>>>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>>>>
>>>>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
>>>>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
>>>>> science by any means.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>>>>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Take & others,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a
>>>>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
>>>>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view
>>>>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that
>>>>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
>>>>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be
>>>>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
>>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I like this discussion.
>>>>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
>>>>> the IOC-related classes.
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
>>>>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
>>>>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
>>>>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>>>>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get
>>>>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could
>>>>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that
>>>>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
>>>>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I
>>>>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do others think?
>>>>>
>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>>>>> (more details
>>>>> on
>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>
>>>>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event record,
>>>>> we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based
>>>>> IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into
>>>>> guidance in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>>>>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
>>>>> the indicator_set_id.
>>>>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
>>>>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any other
>>>>> way to express these groupings.
>>>>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
>>>>> In
>>>>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
>>>>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
>>>>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
>>>>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
>>>>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
>>>>> relationships in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about
>>>>> adding it into the current structure.
>>>>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
>>>>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though I
>>>>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
>>>>> mis-understood some points.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
>>>>> classes'
>>>>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information as
>>>>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Take
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>>>>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
>>>>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
>>>>> If
>>>>> I give you
>>>>> 2
>>>>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
>>>>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
>>>>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>>>>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
>>>>> same group ID.
>>>>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>>>>
>>>>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
>>>>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them
>>>>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
>>>>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
>>>>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
>>>>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
>>>>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
>>>>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them
>>>>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
>>>>> complicated like STIX.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>>>>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE
>>>>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>>>>
>>>>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to
>>>>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
>>>>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
>>>>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
>>>>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
>>>>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes
>>>>> back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.  It may help
>>>>> to have the first draft try to address at least some of these issues
>>>>> so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed
>>>>> solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
>>>>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
>>>>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
>>>>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
>>>>> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect
>>>>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
>>>>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
>>>>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
>>>>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
>>>>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
>>>>> AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some
>>>>> broader term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus
>>>>> attribute values like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution"
>>>>> for added context so you know what to do with the received set of
>>>>> indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
>>>>> indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a
>>>>> method to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using
>>>>> an attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string
>>>>> value to make the connection points, and add a few indicators that
>>>>> are commonly shared into the base IODEF.
>>>>>
>>>>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
>>>>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
>>>>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
>>>>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
>>>>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
>>>>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we
>>>>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
>>>>> for other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the
>>>>> System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then
>>>>> at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc.
>>>>> use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?
>>>>> Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some
>>>>> opinions on this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have
>>>>> other ideas that may work better.
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
>>>>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values
>>>>> or something else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
>>>>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
>>>>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
>>>>> show are
>>>>> related:
>>>>>
>>>>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>>>>> threat:
>>>>>       The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
>>>>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
>>>>> compromise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>>>>> threat:
>>>>>       2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
>>>>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
>>>>> not be present.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
>>>>> where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to
>>>>> show that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We
>>>>> can't send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember
>>>>> reading.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
>>>>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
>>>>> send both the
>>>>> MD5
>>>>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the
>>>>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
>>>>> use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a
>>>>> higher level grouping.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> Christopher Harrington
>>>>> Consulting Security Engineer
>>>>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
>>>>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>>>>> Bedford, MA 01730
>>>>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>>>>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> All -
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from
>>>>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
>>>>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
>>>>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
>>>>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
>>>>> context information that may also include IP address or other data
>>>>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to
>>>>> connect sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the
>>>>> ability to have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators
>>>>> included, as well as to connect indicators that may be included in
>>>>> embedded schemas.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
>>>>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to
>>>>> mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward
>>>>> sharing when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>>>>
>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on
>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
>>>>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of C.
>>>>> Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran
>>>>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
>>>>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking
>>>>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
>>>>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
>>>>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
>>>>> or let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
>>>>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
>>>>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the
>>>>> great minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they
>>>>> utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However,
>>>>> their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other
>>>>> similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts
>>>>> that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
>>>>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a visionary thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
>>>>> DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours Faithfully,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>>>>> SilentCircle  dsm
>>>>> 07710 380044
>>>>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
>>>>> was closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
>>>>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds
>>>>> in some instances."
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
>>>>> would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who
>>>>> study this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>>>>> From:
>>>>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>>>>> To:
>>>>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
>>>>> perspective=A9let's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
>>>>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
>>>>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
>>>>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
>>>>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
>>>>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even
>>>>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
>>>>> which one I should use as the indicator.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow
>>>>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to
>>>>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
>>>>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
>>>>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
>>>>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
>>>>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
>>>>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
>>>>> considered is the UID portion of this=A9how do we use that UID?  How =
is
>>>>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
>>>>> many avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could
>>>>> you share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
>>>>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
>>>>> SCI."
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
>>>>> wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it
>>>>> from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree
>>>>> what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
>>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
>>>>> this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be
>>>>> more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>>>>
>>>>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
>>>>> non-XML extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be
>>>>> specific to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can
>>>>> understand more about the included data in most cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
>>>>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating
>>>>> on the report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one
>>>>> level higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the
>>>>> AdditionalData extension point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
>>>>> that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI
>>>>> draft in the Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or
>>>>> AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could either
>>>>> have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that
>>>>> are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem
>>>>> classes according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
>>>>> various indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other
>>>>> schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want
>>>>> to add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be
>>>>> indicators?  Is this enough to make the connections or is something
>>>>> else else needed?  We could add something like an Indicator_ID in
>>>>> RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the reference or GUID
>>>>> identifiers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not
>>>>> in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and"
>>>>> "or"
>>>>> to
>>>>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
>>>>> these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically
>>>>> in multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in
>>>>> the data format.  If we have cases like this where you need more
>>>>> complex representations, should we use one extension point via the
>>>>> SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension point?
>>>>> Opinions are needed here....
>>>>>
>>>>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
>>>>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
>>>>> class that does this and has an extension point off of it in
>>>>> EventData or we could continue to group items in logical places as is
>>>>> done now in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined
>>>>> indicators via SCI.  I think I like the latter approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
>>>>> Henry
>>>>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>>>>> To: mile@ietf.org
>>>>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings Everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
>>>>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
>>>>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
>>>>> could be conveyed without using SCI draft.
>>>>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
>>>>> the indicators.
>>>>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
>>>>> class, if needed.
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>>>>
>>>>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> -------------------------
>>>>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
>>>>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
>>>>> that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be
>>>>> better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
>>>>> EventData Class.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
>>>>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
>>>>> this issue?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
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>>>>> mile mailing list
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>>>>> mile mailing list
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>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>
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>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
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From Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com  Tue Feb 19 06:54:49 2013
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From: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
To: Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>, MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:54:16 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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This is exactly my point.  I would leave out the numeric ratings.  I
consume the data and at least with the enumerated type I don't have to
also create a map if I want to get back to low, medium and high.  I will
have to make that transform anyway, so that my SOC knows the confidence
without having to keep looking it up ;-)  I like the simplicity of the
enumerated type=8Apeople can take that and make it into whatever they want
as far as numerics are concerned.



Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com






On 2/19/13 9:43 AM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> wrote:

>If the proposal is 0-19 =3D low, 20-39 =3D =8A, 80-99 =3D high, then why d=
o we
>have the numbers, or why do we have the enumerated type? Either it is a
>number or it is an enumerative value. Having both is asking for trouble.
>
>On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:40 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
><kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>
>> Should we provide guidance similar or the same as what CIF uses (was
>>posted to the list previously)?  They use direct mapping to 5 levels so
>>that you can have ranges of numeric values used from 0-100, low to high.
>> This would be the easiest solution...
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kathleen
>> ________________________________________
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric
>>Burger [eburger-l@standardstrack.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 7:38 AM
>> To: MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> If there really is no value to a value, do not let people hurt
>>themselves.
>>
>> If there is a proprietary reason for a value, we should say what we
>>mean and call it such. For example:
>>
>>        <confidence rating=3D"low">This is XML so put your
>>NON-INTEROPERABLE mumble you want here</confidence>
>> or
>>        <confidence rating=3D"high">42</confidence>
>> or
>>        <confidence
>>rating=3D"medium"><mydom:meansSomethingToMe>balderdash</mydom:meansSometh=
in
>>gToMe></confidence>
>>
>> On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:24 AM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>><Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I would agree that flexibility is something to strive for. However
>>>there
>>> isn't enough in the RFC to make the numeric confidence value
>>>understood by
>>> the recipient and therefore actionable. From the spec:
>>>
>>> "numeric.  The element content contains a number that conveys the
>>>confidence
>>> of the data.  The semantics of this number outside the scope of this
>>> specification"
>>>
>>> Based on that I can score my confidence with 1 being most confident
>>>and 100
>>> being least. Perfectly legitimate but would probably mess everybody
>>>up. What
>>> if my scale is 1000 and yours is 100. I send you something with a
>>>score of
>>> 100 you will think I am absolutely certain when I am only 10% so.
>>>Knowing
>>> how sure the sender is about a piece of data shared is critical. If the
>>> sender puts an arbitrary number in the field I have no point of
>>>reference.
>>> It's meaningless to me.
>>>
>>> We spell out what the relative value is for low/med/high. I know those
>>>are
>>> self-explanatory but they are still spelled out. I would urge that we
>>>do the
>>> same for a numeric value. If not there needs to be something added so
>>>that
>>> in addition to the numeric value I have a point of reference for how
>>>certain
>>> you are based on the number you put there.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Banghart, John
>>> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:42 AM
>>> To: Eric Burger; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Eric,
>>>
>>> Well, I think you answered your own initial question, but I'm going to
>>>jump
>>> in anyway.  :)
>>>
>>> Generally speaking, I think we want to strike a balance between
>>> standardization and flexibility.  We are unlikely to arrive at any
>>>sort of
>>> one-size-fits-all scheme, no matter how long we talk about it.
>>>Instead, we
>>> should be focusing on solidifying the areas we can all agree on, and
>>>allow
>>> flexibility for those that we don't.  It's an age old clich=E9, but
>>>let's not
>>> let perfect be the enemy of the good.
>>>
>>> -John
>>>
>>> On 2/16/13 12:42 PM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is the justification for both numeric and enumerated values
>>>> (low/medium/high)?  In general such a schema is begging for
>>>> interoperability problems.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.  On the We Need
>>>> Numbers side is those that actually calculate a percentage or other
>>>> objective measure in the confidence may want to use those real
>>>>numbers.
>>>> As well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three
>>>> enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We
>>>> Need Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0% and 100%,
>>>>tend
>>>> to be arbitrary guesses. Putting a number on this value imparts a
>>>>level
>>>> of specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easier to map
>>>> 'low' to 'low' than it is to map 0-33 to 'low'.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>>>> <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the
>>>>> numbers.  I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we
>>>>>add
>>>>> the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However
>>>>> for potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs
>>>>> with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just
>>>>>meant
>>>>> for the exchange)?  The numbers map to low/med/high - for db storage
>>>>>-
>>>>> if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, adding the
>>>>> 2 additional ones provided.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is
>>>>> doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both
>>>>>options?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
>>>>> To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> From a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work
>>>>> for the people who are going to receive this data if we support both
>>>>> numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people
>>>>> wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we
>>>>> allow both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of
>>>>> some sort. I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking
>>>>> database. Having both a numeric score and alpha characters / words
>>>>> creates issues when trying to interact with the data. I agree that we
>>>>> need to support both however I don't think both should be in the same
>>>>> field. I would much rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if
>>>>>we
>>>>> are going to support 2 different data types.
>>>>>
>>>>> This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere.
>>>>> Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed
>>>>> as  some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.
>>>>> Currently there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)
>>>>> Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the
>>>>> set should be in the set)  Campaign (how confident are you that all
>>>>> Indicator_Sets are part of this campaign)  Threat Actor (how
>>>>>confident
>>>>> are you that the Campaign is attributed to this Threat Actor)  Threat
>>>>> Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT,
>>>>> Crimeware, other)
>>>>>
>>>>> The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first
>>>>> 2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive
>>>>>priority.
>>>>> Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece
>>>>> of information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but I
>>>>> wanted to show where Confidence could be used.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of
>>>>> the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a
>>>>> simplified schema as such below:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>
>>>>>
>>>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D
>>>>>Urgent,
>>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated
>>>>> definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the
>>>>>analysis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low,
>>>>> medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will
>>>>> want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or
>>>>> decreasing.  If we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot
>>>>> express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the data
>>>>> being exchanged about the event.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kathleen included the following in a previous message.
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vs:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>>>
>>>>> I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded
>>>>> to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is
>>>>> indeed subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate
>>>>> confidence index that the sender is trying to convey.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kent Landfield
>>>>>
>>>>> McAfee | An Intel Company
>>>>> Direct: +1.972.963.7096
>>>>> Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
>>>>> Web: www.mcafee.com
>>>>>
>>>>> From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
>>>>> To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, Kathleen Moriarty
>>>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>>>> Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF
>>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be
>>>>> reduced  within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization
>>>>> of indicators  and response between tightly connected sharing
>>>>>partners
>>>>> might require a  more specific level of detail, particularly during a
>>>>> crisis situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for
>>>>> additional granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as
>>>>> preferred for broad interoperability.
>>>>>
>>>>> -John
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
>>>>> terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
>>>>> essentially would say something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1-33 =3D Low
>>>>> 34-67=3D Medium
>>>>> 68-100=3DHigh
>>>>>
>>>>> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low,
>>>>> Medium,  High...do we really thing that how High something is makes
>>>>> that much of a  difference?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does
>>>>> Not Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High
>>>>> Meets...your bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the
>>>>> other Meets got
>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
>>>>> confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so
>>>>>why
>>>>> use  numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The
>>>>> representation looks a little different for each, here is an example:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vs:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>>>
>>>>> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from
>>>>> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
>>>>> extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
>>>>> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
>>>>> specifying how to select ranges.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any other opinions?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>>>>> To: Brian Trammell
>>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium,
>>>>> and  Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate
>>>>> against  the schema.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell"
>>>>> <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build
>>>>> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>>>>> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean
>>>>> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
>>>>> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
>>>>> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
>>>>> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and
>>>>> rigorous than it needs to be.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably
>>>>> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
>>>>> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess,
>>>>> however educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own
>>>>> scales such that each value generally means the same thing in each
>>>>> report. Across teams, I don't know.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
>>>>> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating
>>>>> a response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good
>>>>> point, though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of
>>> pointless.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I
>>>>> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note
>>>>> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to
>>>>> high, unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_
>>>>> of the users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning
>>>>> "yes" and 0 meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual
>>>>> fact is purely coincidental", then let's consider renaming it
>>>>>"percent"
>>> in 5070-bis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian (as contributor)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>>>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
>>>>> change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
>>>>> rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for
>>>>> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various
>>>>> markers that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating
>>>>> the markers meaning.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
>>>>> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned
>>>>> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
>>>>> scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective
>>>>> element to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may
>>>>> vary from entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to
>>>>> consider who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating
>>>>> to map to your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on
>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
>>>>> point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears
>>>>> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization
>>>>> to be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels
>>>>> of urgency.
>>>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D
>>>>>Urgent,
>>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using
>>>>> Confidence the way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and
>>>>> someone sends me an IoC with a score of 70, what does that mean to
>>>>> me? What if I am using a scale of
>>>>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability
>>>>> to describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
>>>>> when we store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values
>>>>> that are numeric as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very
>>>>> problematic.
>>>>>
>>>>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
>>>>> recommend that we revisit this at some point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
>>>>> allows for you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low,
>>>>> medium, and high.
>>>>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
>>>>> If
>>>>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful
>>>>> to have guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the
>>>>> approaches, so we'll need to keep the option for backwards
>>>>> compatibility and it is nice to keep in flexible options where we
>>>>> can.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>>>>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
>>>>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
>>>>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
>>>>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>>>>
>>>>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we
>>>>> break it down to more levels than that we would need to provide
>>>>> guidance on scoring, rating, etc. I think most people should be able
>>>>> to understand low/med/high without having to have a mathematical
>>>>> method for arriving at the level.
>>>>>
>>>>> Low - I am not sure
>>>>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>>>>> High - I am very sure
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to
>>>>> deal with large sets of indicators.
>>>>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
>>>>> omitted if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
>>>>> attribute for the reason Chris kindly described.
>>>>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
>>>>> For
>>>>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",
>>>>> etc?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>> Take
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have
>>>>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>>>>
>>>>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
>>>>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
>>>>> science by any means.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>>>>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Take & others,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a
>>>>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
>>>>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view
>>>>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that
>>>>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
>>>>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be
>>>>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
>>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I like this discussion.
>>>>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
>>>>> the IOC-related classes.
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
>>>>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
>>>>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
>>>>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>>>>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get
>>>>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could
>>>>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that
>>>>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
>>>>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I
>>>>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do others think?
>>>>>
>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>>>>> (more details
>>>>> on
>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>
>>>>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event record,
>>>>> we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based
>>>>> IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into
>>>>> guidance in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>>>>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
>>>>> the indicator_set_id.
>>>>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
>>>>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any other
>>>>> way to express these groupings.
>>>>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
>>>>> In
>>>>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
>>>>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
>>>>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
>>>>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
>>>>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
>>>>> relationships in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about
>>>>> adding it into the current structure.
>>>>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
>>>>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though I
>>>>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
>>>>> mis-understood some points.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
>>>>> classes'
>>>>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information as
>>>>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Take
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>>>>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
>>>>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
>>>>> If
>>>>> I give you
>>>>> 2
>>>>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
>>>>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
>>>>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>>>>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
>>>>> same group ID.
>>>>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>>>>
>>>>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
>>>>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them
>>>>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
>>>>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
>>>>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
>>>>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
>>>>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
>>>>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them
>>>>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
>>>>> complicated like STIX.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>>>>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE
>>>>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>>>>
>>>>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to
>>>>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
>>>>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
>>>>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
>>>>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
>>>>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes
>>>>> back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.  It may help
>>>>> to have the first draft try to address at least some of these issues
>>>>> so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed
>>>>> solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
>>>>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
>>>>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
>>>>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
>>>>> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect
>>>>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
>>>>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
>>>>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
>>>>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
>>>>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
>>>>> AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some
>>>>> broader term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus
>>>>> attribute values like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution"
>>>>> for added context so you know what to do with the received set of
>>>>> indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
>>>>> indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a
>>>>> method to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using
>>>>> an attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string
>>>>> value to make the connection points, and add a few indicators that
>>>>> are commonly shared into the base IODEF.
>>>>>
>>>>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
>>>>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
>>>>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
>>>>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
>>>>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
>>>>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we
>>>>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
>>>>> for other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the
>>>>> System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then
>>>>> at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc.
>>>>> use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?
>>>>> Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some
>>>>> opinions on this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have
>>>>> other ideas that may work better.
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
>>>>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values
>>>>> or something else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
>>>>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
>>>>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
>>>>> show are
>>>>> related:
>>>>>
>>>>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>>>>> threat:
>>>>>      The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
>>>>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
>>>>> compromise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>>>>> threat:
>>>>>      2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
>>>>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
>>>>> not be present.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
>>>>> where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to
>>>>> show that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We
>>>>> can't send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember
>>>>> reading.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
>>>>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
>>>>> send both the
>>>>> MD5
>>>>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the
>>>>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
>>>>> use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a
>>>>> higher level grouping.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> Christopher Harrington
>>>>> Consulting Security Engineer
>>>>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
>>>>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>>>>> Bedford, MA 01730
>>>>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>>>>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> All -
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from
>>>>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
>>>>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
>>>>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
>>>>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
>>>>> context information that may also include IP address or other data
>>>>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to
>>>>> connect sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the
>>>>> ability to have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators
>>>>> included, as well as to connect indicators that may be included in
>>>>> embedded schemas.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
>>>>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to
>>>>> mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward
>>>>> sharing when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>>>>
>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on
>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
>>>>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of C.
>>>>> Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran
>>>>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
>>>>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking
>>>>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
>>>>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
>>>>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
>>>>> or let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
>>>>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
>>>>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the
>>>>> great minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they
>>>>> utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However,
>>>>> their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other
>>>>> similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts
>>>>> that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
>>>>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a visionary thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
>>>>> DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours Faithfully,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>>>>> SilentCircle  dsm
>>>>> 07710 380044
>>>>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
>>>>> was closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
>>>>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds
>>>>> in some instances."
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
>>>>> would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who
>>>>> study this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>>>>> From:
>>>>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>>>>> To:
>>>>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
>>>>> perspectiveSlet's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
>>>>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
>>>>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
>>>>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
>>>>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
>>>>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even
>>>>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
>>>>> which one I should use as the indicator.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow
>>>>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to
>>>>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
>>>>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
>>>>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
>>>>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
>>>>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
>>>>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
>>>>> considered is the UID portion of thisShow do we use that UID?  How is
>>>>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
>>>>> many avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could
>>>>> you share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
>>>>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
>>>>> SCI."
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
>>>>> wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it
>>>>> from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree
>>>>> what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
>>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
>>>>> this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be
>>>>> more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>>>>
>>>>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
>>>>> non-XML extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be
>>>>> specific to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can
>>>>> understand more about the included data in most cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
>>>>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating
>>>>> on the report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one
>>>>> level higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the
>>>>> AdditionalData extension point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
>>>>> that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI
>>>>> draft in the Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or
>>>>> AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could either
>>>>> have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that
>>>>> are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem
>>>>> classes according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
>>>>> various indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other
>>>>> schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want
>>>>> to add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be
>>>>> indicators?  Is this enough to make the connections or is something
>>>>> else else needed?  We could add something like an Indicator_ID in
>>>>> RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the reference or GUID
>>>>> identifiers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not
>>>>> in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and"
>>>>> "or"
>>>>> to
>>>>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
>>>>> these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically
>>>>> in multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in
>>>>> the data format.  If we have cases like this where you need more
>>>>> complex representations, should we use one extension point via the
>>>>> SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension point?
>>>>> Opinions are needed here....
>>>>>
>>>>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
>>>>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
>>>>> class that does this and has an extension point off of it in
>>>>> EventData or we could continue to group items in logical places as is
>>>>> done now in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined
>>>>> indicators via SCI.  I think I like the latter approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
>>>>> Henry
>>>>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>>>>> To: mile@ietf.org
>>>>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings Everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
>>>>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
>>>>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
>>>>> could be conveyed without using SCI draft.
>>>>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
>>>>> the indicators.
>>>>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
>>>>> class, if needed.
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>>>>
>>>>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> -------------------------
>>>>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
>>>>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
>>>>> that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be
>>>>> better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
>>>>> EventData Class.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
>>>>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
>>>>> this issue?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
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>>>>> mile mailing list
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>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
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>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
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---36511695-1834828720-1361338150=:43634
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Greetings Everyone,

After further consideration,=C2=A0 I still tend to lean toward a simplified=
 version of the confidence rating.=C2=A0 Which in my opinion, has now chang=
ed to ENUM or enumerated type ONLY.

Furthermore,=C2=A0 perhaps { low, medium, high},=C2=A0 should be altered to=
 be {low, minor, medium, high, major}

<confidence rating=3D"low">This has a low confidence rating of compromise</=
confidence>

<confidence rating=3D"minor">This has a minor confidence rating of compromi=
se</confidence>

<confidence rating=3D"medium">This has a medium confidence rating of compro=
mise</confidence>

<confidence rating=3D"high">This has a high confidence rating of compromise=
</confidence>

<confidence rating=3D"major">This has a major confidence rating of compromi=
se</confidence>

<< Not sure if the statement below is logical, just Brainstorming>>

Furthermore, let's say Low was map to 1.0.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Minor map to 2.0. Me=
dium map to 3.0=C2=A0 High map to 4.0.=C2=A0 Major map to 5.0

The mapping procedure is the value built-in the ENUM.=C2=A0 (Please feel fr=
ee to correct me if I'm wrong.)

Then, simple statistical math is apply in some form to equate an overall va=
lue of analysis.

C. Henry Adams



=0A
This is exactly my point.=C2=A0 I would leave out the numeric ratings.=C2=
=A0 I
consume the data and at least with the enumerated type I don't have to
also create a map if I want to get back to low, medium and high.=C2=A0 I wi=
ll
have to make that transform anyway, so that my SOC knows the confidence
without having to keep looking it up ;-)=C2=A0 I like the simplicity of the
enumerated type=C5=A0people can take that and make it into whatever they wa=
nt
as far as numerics are concerned.



Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com






On 2/19/13 9:43 AM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> wrote:

>If the proposal is 0-19 =3D low, 20-39 =3D =C5=A0, 80-99 =3D high, then wh=
y do we
>have the numbers, or why do we have the enumerated type? Either it is a
>number or it is an enumerative value. Having both is asking for trouble.
>
>On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:40 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
><kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>
>> Should we provide guidance similar or the same as what CIF uses (was
>>posted to the list previously)?=C2=A0 They use direct mapping to 5 levels=
 so
>>that you can have ranges of numeric values used from 0-100, low to high.
>> This would be the easiest solution...
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kathleen
>> ________________________________________
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric
>>Burger [eburger-l@standardstrack.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 7:38 AM
>> To: MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> If there really is no value to a value, do not let people hurt
>>themselves.
>>
>> If there is a proprietary reason for a value, we should say what we
>>mean and call it such. For example:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <confidence rating=3D"low">This is XML so put=
 your
>>NON-INTEROPERABLE mumble you want here</confidence>
>> or
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <confidence rating=3D"high">42</confidence>
>> or
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <confidence
>>rating=3D"medium"><mydom:meansSomethingToMe>balderdash</mydom:meansSometh=
in
>>gToMe></confidence>
>>
>> On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:24 AM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>><Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I would agree that flexibility is something to strive for. However
>>>there
>>> isn't enough in the RFC to make the numeric confidence value
>>>understood by
>>> the recipient and therefore actionable. From the spec:
>>>
>>> "numeric.=C2=A0 The element content contains a number that conveys the
>>>confidence
>>> of the data.=C2=A0 The semantics of this number outside the scope of th=
is
>>> specification"
>>>
>>> Based on that I can score my confidence with 1 being most confident
>>>and 100
>>> being least. Perfectly legitimate but would probably mess everybody
>>>up. What
>>> if my scale is 1000 and yours is 100. I send you something with a
>>>score of
>>> 100 you will think I am absolutely certain when I am only 10% so.
>>>Knowing
>>> how sure the sender is about a piece of data shared is critical. If the
>>> sender puts an arbitrary number in the field I have no point of
>>>reference.
>>> It's meaningless to me.
>>>
>>> We spell out what the relative value is for low/med/high. I know those
>>>are
>>> self-explanatory but they are still spelled out. I would urge that we
>>>do the
>>> same for a numeric value. If not there needs to be something added so
>>>that
>>> in addition to the numeric value I have a point of reference for how
>>>certain
>>> you are based on the number you put there.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Banghart, John
>>> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:42 AM
>>> To: Eric Burger; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Eric,
>>>
>>> Well, I think you answered your own initial question, but I'm going to
>>>jump
>>> in anyway.=C2=A0 :)
>>>
>>> Generally speaking, I think we want to strike a balance between
>>> standardization and flexibility.=C2=A0 We are unlikely to arrive at any
>>>sort of
>>> one-size-fits-all scheme, no matter how long we talk about it.
>>>Instead, we
>>> should be focusing on solidifying the areas we can all agree on, and
>>>allow
>>> flexibility for those that we don't.=C2=A0 It's an age old clich=C3=A9,=
 but
>>>let's not
>>> let perfect be the enemy of the good.
>>>
>>> -John
>>>
>>> On 2/16/13 12:42 PM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is the justification for both numeric and enumerated values
>>>> (low/medium/high)?=C2=A0 In general such a schema is begging for
>>>> interoperability problems.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.=C2=A0 On the We=
 Need
>>>> Numbers side is those that actually calculate a percentage or other
>>>> objective measure in the confidence may want to use those real
>>>>numbers.
>>>> As well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three
>>>> enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We
>>>> Need Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0% and 100%,
>>>>tend
>>>> to be arbitrary guesses. Putting a number on this value imparts a
>>>>level
>>>> of specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easier to map
>>>> 'low' to 'low' than it is to map 0-33 to 'low'.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>>>> <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the
>>>>> numbers.=C2=A0 I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more =
we
>>>>>add
>>>>> the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However
>>>>> for potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs
>>>>> with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just
>>>>>meant
>>>>> for the exchange)?=C2=A0 The numbers map to low/med/high - for db sto=
rage
>>>>>-
>>>>> if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, adding the
>>>>> 2 additional ones provided.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is
>>>>> doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both
>>>>>options?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
>>>>> To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> From a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work
>>>>> for the people who are going to receive this data if we support both
>>>>> numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people
>>>>> wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we
>>>>> allow both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of
>>>>> some sort. I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking
>>>>> database. Having both a numeric score and alpha characters / words
>>>>> creates issues when trying to interact with the data. I agree that we
>>>>> need to support both however I don't think both should be in the same
>>>>> field. I would much rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if
>>>>>we
>>>>> are going to support 2 different data types.
>>>>>
>>>>> This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere.
>>>>> Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed
>>>>> as=C2=A0 some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC=
.
>>>>> Currently there are 5 areas where we=C2=A0 (EMC) uses confidence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)
>>>>> Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the
>>>>> set should be in the set)=C2=A0 Campaign (how confident are you that =
all
>>>>> Indicator_Sets are part of this campaign)=C2=A0 Threat Actor (how
>>>>>confident
>>>>> are you that the Campaign is attributed to this Threat Actor)=C2=A0 T=
hreat
>>>>> Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT,
>>>>> Crimeware, other)
>>>>>
>>>>> The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first
>>>>> 2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive
>>>>>priority.
>>>>> Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece
>>>>> of information for us.=C2=A0 Sorry to take us a little off the path b=
ut I
>>>>> wanted to show where Confidence could be used.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of
>>>>> the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a
>>>>> simplified schema as such below:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>
>>>>>
>>>>> ( i.e.=C2=A0 1 =3D Less Likely,=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A02 =3D Probable,=C2=
=A0 3 =3D A Concern,=C2=A0 4 =3D
>>>>>Urgent,
>>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated
>>>>> definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the
>>>>>analysis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that what we really need is both.=C2=A0 In most situations a =
low,
>>>>> medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will
>>>>> want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or
>>>>> decreasing.=C2=A0 If we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot
>>>>> express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the data
>>>>> being exchanged about the event.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kathleen included the following in a previous message.
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vs:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>>>
>>>>> I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded
>>>>> to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is
>>>>> indeed subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate
>>>>> confidence index that the sender is trying to convey.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kent Landfield
>>>>>
>>>>> McAfee | An Intel Company
>>>>> Direct: +1.972.963.7096
>>>>> Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
>>>>> Web: www.mcafee.com
>>>>>
>>>>> From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
>>>>> To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>, Kathleen Moriarty
>>>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>>>> Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, MILE IETF
>>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be
>>>>> reduced=C2=A0 within communities that interact frequently.=C2=A0 Prio=
ritization
>>>>> of indicators=C2=A0 and response between tightly connected sharing
>>>>>partners
>>>>> might require a=C2=A0 more specific level of detail, particularly dur=
ing a
>>>>> crisis situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for
>>>>> additional granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as
>>>>> preferred for broad interoperability.
>>>>>
>>>>> -John
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
>>>>> terms:=C2=A0 Low, Medium, High.=C2=A0 Having a numeric scale with a m=
ap that
>>>>> essentially would say something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1-33 =3D Low
>>>>> 34-67=3D Medium
>>>>> 68-100=3DHigh
>>>>>
>>>>> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low,
>>>>> Medium,=C2=A0 High...do we really thing that how High something is ma=
kes
>>>>> that much of a=C2=A0 difference?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does
>>>>> Not Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High
>>>>> Meets...your bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the
>>>>> other Meets got
>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
>>>>> confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so
>>>>>why
>>>>> use=C2=A0 numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.=C2=A0 The
>>>>> representation looks a little different for each, here is an example:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vs:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>>>
>>>>> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.=C2=A0 I'd like to hear=
 from
>>>>> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
>>>>> extremely useful (need to gauge that).=C2=A0 Other options is that th=
e
>>>>> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
>>>>> specifying how to select ranges.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any other opinions?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>>>>> To: Brian Trammell
>>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:=C2=A0 High, Me=
dium,
>>>>> and=C2=A0 Low?=C2=A0 Any other value means that the Document will mot=
 validate
>>>>> against=C2=A0 the schema.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell"
>>>>> <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build
>>>>> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>>>>> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean
>>>>> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
>>>>> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
>>>>> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
>>>>> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and
>>>>> rigorous than it needs to be.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably
>>>>> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
>>>>> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess,
>>>>> however educated.=C2=A0 Each team will probably naturally tune its ow=
n
>>>>> scales such that each value generally means the same thing in each
>>>>> report. Across teams, I don't know.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
>>>>> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating
>>>>> a response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good
>>>>> point, though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of
>>> pointless.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I
>>>>> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note
>>>>> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to
>>>>> high, unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_
>>>>> of the users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning
>>>>> "yes" and 0 meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual
>>>>> fact is purely coincidental", then let's consider renaming it
>>>>>"percent"
>>> in 5070-bis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian (as contributor)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>>>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.=C2=A0 We ca=
n
>>>>> change it if it needs to be changed.=C2=A0 The value is for a confide=
nce
>>>>> rating on the indicators shared.=C2=A0 The definitions may be helpful=
 for
>>>>> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.=C2=A0 IODEF has various
>>>>> markers that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating
>>>>> the markers meaning.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
>>>>> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned
>>>>> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).=C2=A0 Th=
e
>>>>> scales I have seen are 0-100.=C2=A0 There is of course a subjective
>>>>> element to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may
>>>>> vary from entity to entity.=C2=A0 With this type of rating you may ne=
ed to
>>>>> consider who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating
>>>>> to map to your own rating.=C2=A0 It would be good to hear more though=
ts on
>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
>>>>> point.=C2=A0 Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.=C2=A0 =
It appears
>>>>> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization
>>>>> to be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels
>>>>> of urgency.
>>>>> ( i.e.=C2=A0 1 =3D Less Likely,=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A02 =3D Probable,=C2=
=A0 3 =3D A Concern,=C2=A0 4 =3D
>>>>>Urgent,
>>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using
>>>>> Confidence the way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and
>>>>> someone sends me an IoC with a score of 70, what does that mean to
>>>>> me? What if I am using a scale of
>>>>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability
>>>>> to describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
>>>>> when we store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values
>>>>> that are numeric as well as text.=C2=A0 Makes searching / sorting ver=
y
>>>>> problematic.
>>>>>
>>>>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
>>>>> recommend that we revisit this at some point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.=C2=A0 Right now, the schem=
a
>>>>> allows for you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low,
>>>>> medium, and high.
>>>>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
>>>>> If
>>>>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful
>>>>> to have guidance.=C2=A0 This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the
>>>>> approaches, so we'll need to keep the option for backwards
>>>>> compatibility and it is nice to keep in flexible options where we
>>>>> can.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>>>>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
>>>>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
>>>>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
>>>>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>>>>
>>>>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we
>>>>> break it down to more levels than that we would need to provide
>>>>> guidance on scoring, rating, etc. I think most people should be able
>>>>> to understand low/med/high without having to have a mathematical
>>>>> method for arriving at the level.
>>>>>
>>>>> Low - I am not sure
>>>>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>>>>> High - I am very sure
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to
>>>>> deal with large sets of indicators.
>>>>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
>>>>> omitted if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
>>>>> attribute for the reason Chris kindly described.
>>>>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
>>>>> For
>>>>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",
>>>>> etc?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>> Take
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have
>>>>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>>>>
>>>>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
>>>>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
>>>>> science by any means.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>>>>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Take & others,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a
>>>>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.=C2=A0 I'l=
l
>>>>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view
>>>>> point.=C2=A0 We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF=
 that
>>>>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
>>>>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be
>>>>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
>>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I like this discussion.
>>>>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
>>>>> the IOC-related classes.
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
>>>>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
>>>>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.=C2=A0 We could as =
you
>>>>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>>>>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get
>>>>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.=C2=A0 This c=
ould
>>>>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that
>>>>> could have been shared previously.=C2=A0 If there are a large number =
of
>>>>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I
>>>>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do others think?
>>>>>
>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>>>>> (more details
>>>>> on
>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>
>>>>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event record,
>>>>> we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based
>>>>> IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.=C2=A0 This should go into
>>>>> guidance in the SCI draft.=C2=A0 Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>>>>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
>>>>> the indicator_set_id.
>>>>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
>>>>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any other
>>>>> way to express these groupings.
>>>>> For instance,=C2=A0 a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_ui=
ds.
>>>>> In
>>>>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
>>>>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?=C2=A0 Would=
 this
>>>>> happen?=C2=A0 Would it be easier to express relationships with sets o=
f
>>>>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?=C2=A0 By using this,=
 it
>>>>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
>>>>> relationships in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about
>>>>> adding it into the current structure.
>>>>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
>>>>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though I
>>>>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
>>>>> mis-understood some points.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
>>>>> classes'
>>>>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information as
>>>>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Take
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>>>>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
>>>>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
>>>>> If
>>>>> I give you
>>>>> 2
>>>>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
>>>>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
>>>>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>>>>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
>>>>> same group ID.
>>>>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>>>>
>>>>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
>>>>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them
>>>>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
>>>>> together.=C2=A0 I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missi=
ng
>>>>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
>>>>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
>>>>> Incident.=C2=A0 I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be=
 a
>>>>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them
>>>>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
>>>>> complicated like STIX.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>>>>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>, MILE
>>>>> IETF <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>>>>
>>>>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to
>>>>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
>>>>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
>>>>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
>>>>> sharing purposes.=C2=A0 It was written before we used terms like
>>>>> indicators.=C2=A0 With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of cha=
nges
>>>>> back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.=C2=A0 It may =
help
>>>>> to have the first draft try to address at least some of these issues
>>>>> so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed
>>>>> solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
>>>>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
>>>>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.=C2=A0 In t=
he
>>>>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
>>>>> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect
>>>>> the list of included indicators.=C2=A0 I think we should still keep t=
he
>>>>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
>>>>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.=C2=A0 Rosella =
had
>>>>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
>>>>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
>>>>> AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some
>>>>> broader term).=C2=A0 It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus
>>>>> attribute values like "C2-server", "sinkhole",=C2=A0 "MalwareDistribu=
tion"
>>>>> for added context so you know what to do with the received set of
>>>>> indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
>>>>> indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a
>>>>> method to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using
>>>>> an attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string
>>>>> value to make the connection points, and add a few indicators that
>>>>> are commonly shared into the base IODEF.
>>>>>
>>>>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
>>>>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
>>>>> Chris below).=C2=A0 What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as =
a
>>>>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
>>>>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
>>>>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we
>>>>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
>>>>> for other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the
>>>>> System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.=C2=A0 =
Then
>>>>> at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc.
>>>>> use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?
>>>>> Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?=C2=A0 I'd like some
>>>>> opinions on this approach.=C2=A0 +1 if you agree, suggestions if you =
have
>>>>> other ideas that may work better.
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
>>>>> forward sharing when not permitted.=C2=A0 We may want to use these va=
lues
>>>>> or something else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
>>>>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
>>>>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
>>>>> show are
>>>>> related:
>>>>>
>>>>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>>>>> threat:
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of =
the C2 that
>>>>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
>>>>> compromise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>>>>> threat:
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2 different registry values for the same registry=
 key. If
>>>>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
>>>>> not be present.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
>>>>> where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to
>>>>> show that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We
>>>>> can't send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember
>>>>> reading.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
>>>>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
>>>>> send both the
>>>>> MD5
>>>>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the
>>>>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
>>>>> use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a
>>>>> higher level grouping.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> Christopher Harrington
>>>>> Consulting Security Engineer
>>>>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
>>>>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>>>>> Bedford, MA 01730
>>>>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>>>>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> All -
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from
>>>>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
>>>>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting point, C. Henry.=C2=A0 Our objective here is to have mach=
ine
>>>>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
>>>>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
>>>>> context information that may also include IP address or other data
>>>>> that could be indicators.=C2=A0 The question I raised was on how to
>>>>> connect sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the
>>>>> ability to have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators
>>>>> included, as well as to connect indicators that may be included in
>>>>> embedded schemas.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
>>>>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?=C2=A0 Do we use this t=
o
>>>>> mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward
>>>>> sharing when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>>>>
>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on
>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
>>>>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of C.
>>>>> Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.=C2=A0 I remember when I first=
 ran
>>>>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
>>>>> peculiar question.=C2=A0 He said, " How do you stop someone from trac=
king
>>>>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off=C2=A0 and the modem that it=
 is
>>>>> connected- which is constantly on!"=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :=C2=A0 There is a 1st Respo=
nder
>>>>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
>>>>> or let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.=C2=A0 He /or She needs =
to
>>>>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
>>>>> Danger.=C2=A0 The device used to communicate has been captured by the
>>>>> great minds of the enemy.=C2=A0 It's only a matter of time before the=
y
>>>>> utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.=C2=A0 How=
ever,
>>>>> their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other
>>>>> similar devices to attack.=C2=A0 Why? Perhaps the less thought of con=
cepts
>>>>> that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
>>>>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a visionary thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
>>>>> DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours Faithfully,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>>>>> SilentCircle=C2=A0 dsm
>>>>> 07710 380044
>>>>> david.misell@bcs.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
>>>>> was closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
>>>>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds
>>>>> in some instances."
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.=C2=A0 However, =
it
>>>>> would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who
>>>>> study this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>>>>> From:
>>>>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com>
>>>>> To:
>>>>> "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
>>>>> perspectiveSlet's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
>>>>> incident.=C2=A0 This document has source IP and destination IP that i=
s
>>>>> being shared.=C2=A0 However, what I don't know is which IP address is=
 my
>>>>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.=C2=A0 =
This
>>>>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
>>>>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even
>>>>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
>>>>> which one I should use as the indicator.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow
>>>>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.=C2=A0 I do adm=
it to
>>>>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
>>>>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
>>>>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
>>>>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
>>>>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
>>>>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.=C2=A0 One thing that I haven't
>>>>> considered is the UID portion of thisShow do we use that UID?=C2=A0 H=
ow is
>>>>> the UID created?=C2=A0 Are there standards for UIDs?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Cc: mile@ietf.org
>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
>>>>> many avenues you review with this approach at once.=C2=A0 However,=C2=
=A0 could
>>>>> you share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
>>>>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
>>>>> SCI."
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
>>>>> wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it
>>>>> from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree
>>>>> what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com>, "mile@ietf.org"
>>>>> <mile@ietf.org>
>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for taking a look at this.=C2=A0 We have a few considerations =
in
>>>>> this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be
>>>>> more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>>>>
>>>>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
>>>>> non-XML extensions.=C2=A0 Where you place the extensions should be
>>>>> specific to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can
>>>>> understand more about the included data in most cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
>>>>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating
>>>>> on the report as a whole.=C2=A0 Extensions related to impact would be=
 one
>>>>> level higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the
>>>>> AdditionalData extension point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
>>>>> that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI
>>>>> draft in the Method class.=C2=A0 He did ask about non-XML.=C2=A0 Reco=
rdItem or
>>>>> AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could either
>>>>> have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that
>>>>> are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem
>>>>> classes according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
>>>>> various indicators they share.=C2=A0 If we are extending to embed oth=
er
>>>>> schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want
>>>>> to add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be
>>>>> indicators?=C2=A0 Is this enough to make the connections or is someth=
ing
>>>>> else else needed?=C2=A0 We could add something like an Indicator_ID i=
n
>>>>> RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the reference or GUID
>>>>> identifiers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not
>>>>> in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and"
>>>>> "or"
>>>>> to
>>>>> specify the relationships.=C2=A0 In some cases, you will want to grou=
p
>>>>> these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically
>>>>> in multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in
>>>>> the data format.=C2=A0 If we have cases like this where you need more
>>>>> complex representations, should we use one extension point via the
>>>>> SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension point?
>>>>> Opinions are needed here....
>>>>>
>>>>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
>>>>> indictors into the base IODEF document.=C2=A0 We could have a catch-a=
ll
>>>>> class that does this and has an extension point off of it in
>>>>> EventData or we could continue to group items in logical places as is
>>>>> done now in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined
>>>>> indicators via SCI.=C2=A0 I think I like the latter approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C.
>>>>> Henry
>>>>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>>>>> To: mile@ietf.org
>>>>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings Everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
>>>>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
>>>>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
>>>>> could be conveyed without using SCI draft.
>>>>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
>>>>> the indicators.
>>>>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
>>>>> class, if needed.
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>>>>
>>>>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> -------------------------
>>>>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
>>>>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
>>>>> that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be
>>>>> better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
>>>>> EventData Class.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
>>>>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
>>>>> this issue?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com (Direct Email)
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
>> mile@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mile mailing list
>mile@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>


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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">Greetings Everyone,<br><br>After further cons=
ideration,&nbsp; I still tend to lean toward a simplified version of the co=
nfidence rating.&nbsp; Which in my opinion, has now changed to ENUM or enum=
erated type ONLY.<br><br>Furthermore,&nbsp; perhaps { low, medium, high},&n=
bsp; should be altered to be {low, minor, medium, high, major}<br><br>&lt;c=
onfidence rating=3D"low"&gt;This has a low confidence rating of compromise&=
lt;/confidence&gt;<br><br>&lt;confidence rating=3D"minor"&gt;This has a min=
or confidence rating of compromise&lt;/confidence&gt;<br><br>&lt;confidence=
 rating=3D"medium"&gt;This has a medium confidence rating of compromise&lt;=
/confidence&gt;<br><br>&lt;confidence rating=3D"high"&gt;This has a high co=
nfidence rating of compromise&lt;/confidence&gt;<br><br>&lt;confidence rati=
ng=3D"major"&gt;This has a major confidence rating of
 compromise&lt;/confidence&gt;<br><br>&lt;&lt; Not sure if the statement be=
low is logical, just Brainstorming&gt;&gt;<br><br>Furthermore, let's say Lo=
w was map to 1.0.&nbsp;&nbsp; Minor map to 2.0. Medium map to 3.0&nbsp; Hig=
h map to 4.0.&nbsp; Major map to 5.0<br><br>The mapping procedure is the va=
lue built-in the ENUM.&nbsp; (Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)=
<br><br>Then, simple statistical math is apply in some form to equate an ov=
erall value of analysis.<br><br>C. Henry Adams<br><br><br><br>=0A<br>This i=
s exactly my point.&nbsp; I would leave out the numeric ratings.&nbsp; I<br=
>consume the data and at least with the enumerated type I don't have to<br>=
also create a map if I want to get back to low, medium and high.&nbsp; I wi=
ll<br>have to make that transform anyway, so that my SOC knows the confiden=
ce<br>without having to keep looking it up ;-)&nbsp; I like the simplicity =
of the<br>enumerated type=C5=A0people can take that and make it into whatev=
er they want<br>as far as numerics are concerned.<br><br><br><br>Paul W. St=
oecker, Ph.D.<br>SMC Lead Content Architect<br>RSA, The Security Division o=
f EMC<br>cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com=
/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><br><br><b=
r><br><br><br><br>On 2/19/13 9:43 AM, "Eric Burger" &lt;<a href=3D"http://u=
s.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Deburger-l@standardstrack.com">eburg=
er-l@standardstrack.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt;If the proposal is
 0-19 =3D low, 20-39 =3D =C5=A0, 80-99 =3D high, then why do we<br>&gt;have=
 the numbers, or why do we have the enumerated type? Either it is a<br>&gt;=
number or it is an enumerative value. Having both is asking for trouble.<br=
>&gt;<br>&gt;On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:40 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"<br>&gt;&lt;<=
a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty=
@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Shou=
ld we provide guidance similar or the same as what CIF uses (was<br>&gt;&gt=
;posted to the list previously)?&nbsp; They use direct mapping to 5 levels =
so<br>&gt;&gt;that you can have ranges of numeric values used from 0-100, l=
ow to high.<br>&gt;&gt; This would be the easiest solution...<br>&gt;&gt;<b=
r>&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt;&gt; _______________________=
_________________<br>&gt;&gt; From: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.=
com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a
 href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.=
org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Eric<br>&gt;&gt;Burger [<a hre=
f=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Deburger-l@standardstra=
ck.com">eburger-l@standardstrack.com</a>]<br>&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, Februa=
ry 19, 2013 7:38 AM<br>&gt;&gt; To: MILE IETF<br>&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [mil=
e] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; If there really is no value to a value, do =
not let people hurt<br>&gt;&gt;themselves.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; If there=
 is a proprietary reason for a value, we should say what we<br>&gt;&gt;mean=
 and call it such. For example:<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &lt;confidence rating=3D"low"&gt;This is XML so put your<br>&gt;&gt=
;NON-INTEROPERABLE mumble you want here&lt;/confidence&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; or<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;confidence rating=3D"high"&gt;42&=
lt;/confidence&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; or<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
 &lt;confidence<br>&gt;&gt;rating=3D"medium"&gt;&lt;mydom:meansSomethingToM=
e&gt;balderdash&lt;/mydom:meansSomethin<br>&gt;&gt;gToMe&gt;&lt;/confidence=
&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:24 AM, "Harrington, Chri=
stopher"<br>&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.com">Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; I would agree that flexibility is so=
mething to strive for. However<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;there<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; isn't e=
nough in the RFC to make the numeric confidence value<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;unders=
tood by<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; the recipient and therefore actionable. From the sp=
ec:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; "numeric.&nbsp; The element content con=
tains a number that conveys the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;confidence<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; o=
f the data.&nbsp; The semantics of this number outside the scope of this<br=
>&gt;&gt;&gt; specification"<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Based on that
 I can score my confidence with 1 being most confident<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;and 1=
00<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; being least. Perfectly legitimate but would probably mes=
s everybody<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;up. What<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; if my scale is 1000 and=
 yours is 100. I send you something with a<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;score of<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt; 100 you will think I am absolutely certain when I am only 10% so.<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;Knowing<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; how sure the sender is about a piece =
of data shared is critical. If the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; sender puts an arbitrary=
 number in the field I have no point of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;reference.<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt; It's meaningless to me.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; We spell out=
 what the relative value is for low/med/high. I know those<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;a=
re<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; self-explanatory but they are still spelled out. I would=
 urge that we<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;do the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; same for a numeric valu=
e. If not there needs to be something added
 so<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;that<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; in addition to the numeric value I =
have a point of reference for how<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;certain<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; yo=
u are based on the number you put there.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Th=
anks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; --Chris<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; From: <a href=
=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">=
mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.co=
m/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Beha=
lf Of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Banghart, John<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Monday, February=
 18, 2013 7:42 AM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Eric Burger; MILE IETF<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Eric,<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Well, I think you answered your own initial question,=
 but I'm going to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;jump<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; in anyway.&nbsp;
 :)<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Generally speaking, I think we want to =
strike a balance between<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; standardization and flexibility.&n=
bsp; We are unlikely to arrive at any<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;sort of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
; one-size-fits-all scheme, no matter how long we talk about it.<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;Instead, we<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; should be focusing on solidifying the area=
s we can all agree on, and<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;allow<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; flexibility=
 for those that we don't.&nbsp; It's an age old clich=C3=A9, but<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;let's not<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; let perfect be the enemy of the good.<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; -John<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; On 2/16/13 =
12:42 PM, "Eric Burger" &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Deburger-l@standardstrack.com">eburger-l@standardstrack.com</a>&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What is the j=
ustification for both numeric and enumerated values<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
 (low/medium/high)?&nbsp; In general such a schema is begging for<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt; interoperability problems.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.&nbsp; On the We N=
eed<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Numbers side is those that actually calculate a per=
centage or other<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; objective measure in the confidence ma=
y want to use those real<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;numbers.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As=
 well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt; enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Need Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0=
% and 100%,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;tend<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to be arbitrary gue=
sses. Putting a number on this value imparts a<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;level<br>=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easi=
er to map<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 'low' to 'low' than it is to map 0-33
 to 'low'.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08=
 PM, "Harrington, Christopher"<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"http://us=
.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.com">Chri=
stopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt; That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for =
the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; numbers.&nbsp; I would prefer a simple low/med/=
high scheme. The more we<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;add<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for potential interoperability I do see the benefit of th=
e 5.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --Chris<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Moriarty, Kathleen<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Wedne=
sday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Harrington,
 Christopher; MILE IETF<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br=
>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If yo=
u think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt; with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is jus=
t<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;meant<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for the exchange)?&n=
bsp; The numbers map to low/med/high - for db storage<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;-<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; if numbers are used, you could store the equiva=
lent value, adding the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 2 additional ones provided.<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Does it make sense to expan=
d the set of values to match what CIF is<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; doing if w=
e went forward with the approach of supporting both<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
options?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thank you,<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
 Kathleen<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: <a href=3D"=
http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile=
-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc=
/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Of Harrington, Christopher<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; S=
ent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: 'C. =
Henry Adams &amp; BIE'; MILE IETF<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [mil=
e] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From a data process=
ing standpoint it is going to create extra work<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for=
 the people who are going to receive this data if we support both<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envisi=
on people<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wanting to search, sort, store, etc the d=
ata in this field. If we<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; allow both data types then
 everyone will need to have a mapping of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; some sort.=
 I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; database. Having both a numeric score and alpha characters / words<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; creates issues when trying to interact with the data. I a=
gree that we<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; need to support both however I don't t=
hink both should be in the same<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; field. I would much=
 rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;we<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; are going to support 2 different data types.<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This will be a larger issue shoul=
d Confidence be used elsewhere.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Ideally in future r=
evisions I would like to see attribution expressed<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
as&nbsp; some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Currently there are 5 areas where we&nbsp; (EMC)
 uses confidence.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Indicator=
 (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I=
ndicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; set should be in the set)&nbsp; Campaign (how confident a=
re you that all<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Indicator_Sets are part of this cam=
paign)&nbsp; Threat Actor (how<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;confident<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; are you that the Campaign is attributed to this Threat Actor)&=
nbsp; Threat<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Actor type (how confident are you that=
 this Theat Actor is APT,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Crimeware, other)<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The threat actor name and the thre=
at actor type are usually the first<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 2 things that a=
nyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;pr=
iority.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Knowing how sure the sender is that
 this IoC is APTis a vital piece<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of information for=
 us.&nbsp; Sorry to take us a little off the path but I<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; wanted to show where Confidence could be used.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; --Chris<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: <a href=
=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">=
mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.co=
m/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Beha=
lf<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Of C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To:=
 MILE IETF<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Again, I would concur that both a numeric =
and subjective analysis of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the Confidence Rating
 needs to be express, but combined in a<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; simplified =
schema as such below:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;C=
onfidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric"&gt;1LL&lt;/&gt; .... etc.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric"&g=
t;2P&lt;/&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Confidenc=
e rating=3D" Alphanumeric"&gt;3AC&lt;/&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric"&gt;4U&lt;/&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Confidence rating=3D" Alpha=
numeric"&gt;5I&lt;/&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ( i=
.e.&nbsp; 1 =3D Less Likely,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2 =3D Probable,&nbsp; 3 =3D A=
 Concern,&nbsp; 4 =3D<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Urgent,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; 5 =3D Imminent )<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Here's m=
y point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;
 definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;analysis.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I agree that what we really need is bo=
th.&nbsp; In most situations a low,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; medium and high=
 may be acceptable but there are times when we will<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt; decreasing.&nbsp; If we are only looking at a three levels, we c=
annot<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; express what is needed to show confidence is =
trending up on the data<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; being exchanged about the e=
vent.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Kathleen included the=
 following in a previous message.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt; &lt;Confidence
 rating=3D"low"/&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Vs:<br=
>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Confidence rating=3D"nume=
ric"&gt;85&lt;/&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I reall=
y think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that=
 is<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indeed subjective and we need a means to show a=
 reasonably accurate<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; confidence index that the send=
er is trying to convey.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Ken=
t Landfield<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; McAfee | An Int=
el Company<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Direct: +1.972.963.7096<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; Mobile: +1.817.637.8026<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Web: www.mcafee.com=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: &lt;Banghart&gt;, Jo=
hn Banghart &lt;<a
 href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djohn.banghart@nist=
.gov">john.banghart@nist.gov</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Date: Wednesda=
y, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: "Stoecker, Paul" &=
lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker=
@rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;, Kathleen Moriarty<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkath=
leen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;, Brian Trammell &l=
t;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.e=
e.ethz.ch">trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: "C. =
Henry Adams &amp; BIE" &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/co=
mpose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, MILE IETF<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Su=
bject: Re: [mile]
 IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Paul,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I agree that confidence is subjective, but=
 subjectivity can be<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; reduced&nbsp; within communiti=
es that interact frequently.&nbsp; Prioritization<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; o=
f indicators&nbsp; and response between tightly connected sharing<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;partners<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; might require a&nbsp; more s=
pecific level of detail, particularly during a<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; cris=
is situation.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From that per=
spective, I think the guidance should allow for<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; add=
itional granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; preferred for broad interoperability.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -John<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" &lt;<a
 href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.=
com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Confidence is a subjective thing, so I =
think we should use subjective<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; terms:&nbsp; Low, Me=
dium, High.&nbsp; Having a numeric scale with a map that<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; essentially would say something like:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 1-33 =3D Low<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 34-67=3D Medium<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 68-100=3DHigh<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low,<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Medium,&nbsp; High...do we really thing that how High so=
mething is makes<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that much of a&nbsp; difference?<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This is like when you get yo=
ur
 Performance review where it is Does<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Not Meet, Meet=
s and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; Meets...your bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; other Meets got<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ;-)<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Anyway, I digress but trying to pr=
ove a point that I would argue that<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; confidence in t=
his case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
why<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; use&nbsp; numeric values when Low, Medium, High=
 would do just fine.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; SMC Lead =
Content Architect<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; RSA, The Security Division of EMC=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a
 href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.=
com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moria=
rty, Kathleen" &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hello,<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Both approaches will valida=
te in the current schema.&nbsp; The<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; representation =
looks a little different for each, here is an example:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Confidence rating=3D"low"/&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Vs:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;Confidence
 rating=3D"numeric"&gt;85&lt;/&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; Searching capability is a great point, agreed.&nbsp; I'd like to he=
ar from<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; more people to make sure we don't lose a ca=
pability that others find<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; extremely useful (need to=
 gauge that).&nbsp; Other options is that the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; guida=
nce can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt; specifying how to select ranges.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Any other opinions?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
From: Stoecker, Paul<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Wednesday, February 13, =
2013 7:14 AM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Brian Trammell<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE; MILE
 IETF<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 =
values:&nbsp; High, Medium,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and&nbsp; Low?&nbsp; An=
y other value means that the Document will mot validate<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; against&nbsp; the schema.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; Sent from my iPhone<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On =
Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell"<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.ethz=
.ch">trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Kathleen, all,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right app=
roach here: trying to build<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; interoperable numeric s=
cales for assessment is a very hard problem.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
 (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; "we compared this incident report to N past similar inc=
ident reports<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; according to similarity algorithm S, =
and 70% of the past reports had<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; assessed impacts wi=
thin E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; t=
hink for most applications this is vastly more difficult and<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; rigorous than it needs to be.)<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt; Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, re=
peatably<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; measurable aspect of the Assessment report=
 -- which I suspect in<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; many/most/all cases it's not=
 -- then it just represents a guess,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; however educat=
ed.&nbsp; Each team will probably naturally tune its own<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; scales such that each value generally means the same thing in
 each<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; report. Across teams, I don't know.<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On the other hand, Assessments are b=
y their very nature educated<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; guesses, anyway, so I =
don't know that I'd find much use in automating<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; a r=
esponse based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; point, though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; pointless.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; agree, we should put that in the guidance document (alo=
ng with a note<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to=
 medium, and 67 - 100 map to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; high, unless we want t=
o do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of th=
e users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100
 meaning<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; "yes" and 0 meaning "any resemblance these=
 values may have to actual<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; fact is purely coinciden=
tal", then let's consider renaming it<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;"percent"<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt; in 5070-bis.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Be=
st regards,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Brian (as contr=
ibutor)<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen=
.moriarty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a =
starting point.&nbsp; We can<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; change it if it needs =
to be changed.&nbsp; The value is for a confidence<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
rating on the indicators shared.&nbsp; The definitions may be helpful
 for<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; anyone who wants to work on this discussion.&n=
bsp; IODEF has various<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; markers that can be used in =
a complimentary way without conflating<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the markers =
meaning.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think some peopl=
e using IODEF find the numerical values more<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; helpfu=
l, and it would be good to understand what people have learned<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt; from using the current structure (what works/does not work).&nb=
sp; The<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; scales I have seen are 0-100.&nbsp; There i=
s of course a subjective<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; element to assigning a num=
erical value to the confidence and it may<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; vary from=
 entity to entity.&nbsp; With this type of rating you may need to<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; consider who it came from and how they scored the confidence=
 rating<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to map to your own rating.&nbsp; It
 would be good to hear more thoughts on<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; this.<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Kathleen=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: C. Henry Adams &amp;=
 BIE [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dcha=
tlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent=
: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: MILE IETF<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoeck=
er, Paul<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Regarding the IOCs o=
r Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; poin=
t.&nbsp; Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.&nbsp; It appears=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that there maybe a need for some type of simplifie=
d standardization<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to be established between all
 Sharing Groups in this regard.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels<br=
>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of urgency.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ( i.e.&nbsp; 1 =
=3D Less Likely,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2 =3D Probable,&nbsp; 3 =3D A Concern,&nb=
sp; 4 =3D<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Urgent,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 5 =3D Immi=
nent )<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I see some confusion coming=
 down the pike if we start using<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Confidence the way=
 it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; so=
meone sends me an IoC with a score of 70, what does that mean to<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt; me? What if I am using a scale of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 1 t=
o 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the
 ability<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to describe something with a consistent la=
nguage. It really gets ugly<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; when we store IoC from =
multiple sources. I have confidence values<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that are=
 numeric as well as text.&nbsp; Makes searching / sorting very<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt; problematic.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; At=
 this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; recommend that we revisit this at some point.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; --Chris<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -----O=
riginal Message-----<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Moriarty, Kathleen<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 'MILE IETF'<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject:
 RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Chris &=
amp; Take,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I'll just focus =
on the confidence scoring.&nbsp; Right now, the schema<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; allows for you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low,<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; medium, and high.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Different =
sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; If<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; people were to use the numerical values,=
 I agree it would be helpful<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to have guidance.&nbsp=
; This could go in the IODE guidance document.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I have seen examples of current users that use each of =
the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; approaches, so we'll need to keep the option fo=
r backwards<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; compatibility and it is nice to keep in=
 flexible options where we<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
 can.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thank you,<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ----=
-Original Message-----<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Harrington, Christophe=
r<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul=
; 'MILE<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF'<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: =
[mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The number of i=
ndicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ind=
icator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I =
would have<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; separate indicator_set_ids, each with on=
e of the 3 C2 IPs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; My sugges=
tion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if
 we<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; break it down to more levels than that we would=
 need to provide<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; guidance on scoring, rating, etc. =
I think most people should be able<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to understand lo=
w/med/high without having to have a mathematical<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; me=
thod for arriving at the level.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; Low - I am not sure<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Medium - I am reasonably s=
ure<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; High - I am very sure<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --Chris<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Takeshi T=
akahashi [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp">takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>]<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21
 AM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen=
; Stoecker, Paul;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 'MILE IETF'<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; deal with large sets of indicators.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be<br>=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; omitted if we need to deal with only small number of i=
ndicators.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Regarding the us=
e case, I like the idea of using the confidence<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; att=
ribute for the reason Chris kindly described.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I wou=
ld like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt; For<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; instance, 1 means "no confidence"=
 while 5 means "strong confidence",<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
 etc?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thank you.<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Ha=
rrington, Christopher [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc=
/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.com">Christopher.Harrington@emc.co=
m</a>]<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Pa=
ul; 'MILE<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF'<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE=
: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; With respect =
to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Indicator --&gt; Indictor Set --&gt; Campaign=
 --&gt; Threat Actor<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
 Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; would be beneficial as making those associations is not a=
 perfect<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; science by any means.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; --Chris<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Mori=
arty, Kathleen<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:=
00 PM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christophe=
r; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF'<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; Hi Take &amp; others,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Tha=
nks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; few others on their use cases and would like more
 opinions.&nbsp; I'll<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; provide an option below from =
what we have discussed from a CIRC view<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; point.&nbsp=
; We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions=
 (the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; solutions may all tie together with this disc=
ussion - or there may be<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; better/more elegant soluti=
ons others would like to propose).<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Takeshi Ta=
kahashi [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp">takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp</a>]<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 'MILE IETF'<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE:
 [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I like this di=
scussion.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I agree, it would be good idea to have in=
dicator identifiers inside<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the IOC-related classes.=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; KMM: At the class level, w=
e may have several indicators listed that<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; should be=
 viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; class that is a related issue, but a separate set.&nbsp; We could =
as you<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; say, list the indicator IDs connected throug=
h the reference class.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The set IDs might give us ot=
her ways to group the values when we get<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; into logic=
 and relationships between sets or indicators.&nbsp; This could<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documen=
ts that<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; could have been shared
 previously.&nbsp; If there are a large number of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; i=
ndicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; agree it doesn't make as much sense.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do others think?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br=
>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Then for indicators not included in the base schema t=
hat may not fit<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; into a category in the SCI draft, d=
o we create a place for these off<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of SCI or right o=
ff of the IODE schema in EventData?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (more details<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this in my first message)=
.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If we could see any indic=
ator of compromise as computer event record,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; we cou=
ld use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere
 else.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; KMM: That sounds lik=
e a good idea to me.&nbsp; This should go into<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; guid=
ance in the SCI draft.&nbsp; Does anyone else want to weigh in?<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; For the non-XM=
L IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; KMM: Sounds good, thanks!<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the indicator_set_id.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I understan=
d we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any other=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; way to express these groupings.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; For instance,&nbsp; a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_ui=
ds.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this case,
 they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; KMM: It may be, what do you think about large se=
ts of indicators or<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; subsequent messages that add in=
dicators to existing sets?&nbsp; Would this<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; happen?=
&nbsp; Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; indicators in addition to individual indicators?&nbsp; By usin=
g this, it<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; could give us a unique way to also provi=
de the logic and<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; relationships in a new class of IO=
DEF so we don't have to worry about<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; adding it into =
the current structure.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If there are better ways to =
handle that, and others can provide some<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; options, t=
hat would be appreciated!<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; T=
hank you,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
 Kathleen<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would appreciat=
e if anybody could share expertise on this. Though I<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; mis-understood some points.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt; By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SC=
I<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; classes'<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attributes so th=
at they can be correlated with another information as<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; well.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; Take<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</=
a> [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-=
bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On
 Behalf<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Of Harrington, Christopher<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To=
: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sub=
ject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I thi=
nk some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators=
.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I give you<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; 2<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; registry keys do they both have to b=
e present to be an indication of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; compromise or is e=
ither one by themselves an indicator? Both would<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ha=
ve the same group ID since they are related.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --Chris<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Stoecker,
 Paul<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IE=
TF<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What if we added indicator group ID along with the=
 indicator_uid?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This would allow you to group indic=
ators that are related into the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; same group ID.<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Would this resolve the issue?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It is either that or going back to adding a Detectio=
n (or Indicators)<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; class that will should be used to=
 take all of the indicators put them<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; into one place=
 and have the ability to group the ones that go<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; tog=
ether.&nbsp; I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document
 where you put the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indicators that are used for det=
ection and prevention of the shared<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Incident.&nbsp;=
 I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as Chris has suggested without basically recreatin=
g something<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; complicated like STIX.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Paul<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt; SMC Lead Content Architect<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; RSA, The Security=
 Division of EMC<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a href=3D=
"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com">pau=
l.stoecker@rsa.com</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: &lt;Moriarty&gt;, Kathleen &lt;<a
 href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Date: Su=
nday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: "Harrington, Chr=
istopher" &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DCh=
ristopher.Harrington@emc.com">Christopher.Harrington@emc.com</a>&gt;, MILE<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com=
/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 Hi Chris,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I agree, we have=
 some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The list has already said they would like to see i=
ndicators added to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the definitions in RFC5070-bis, =
to be more explicit about including<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indicators and =
sets
 of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 'par=
ts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt; sharing purposes.&nbsp; It was written before we used terms lik=
e<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indicators.&nbsp; With that in mind, Rosella prop=
osed a number of changes<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; back in July, both for gui=
dance and for format updates.&nbsp; It may help<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to =
have the first draft try to address at least some of these issues<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; so people can understand the problems and at least a propose=
d<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; solution.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets o=
f indicators that<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; could have a relationship to each=
 other within a document.&nbsp; In the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; July
 presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; new category attribute values for the System class that would =
connect<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the list of included indicators.&nbsp; I th=
ink we should still keep the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; concept of a Node to a=
 single node, but perhaps within System, list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; multi=
ple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.&nbsp; Rosella had<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, th=
is would<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; help solve the issue as NodeRole values wo=
uld compliment an<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; AttackType (FraudType values coul=
d be included in AttackType or some<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; broader term).&=
nbsp; It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 attribute values like "C2-server", "sinkhole",&nbsp; "MalwareDistribution"=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for added context so you know what to do
 with the received set of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indicators.<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I am proposing that we change IODEF to i=
nclude multiple sets of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indicators, add an AttackTy=
pe attribute (or some other name), a<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; method to conn=
ect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; an attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; value to make the connection points, and add a few indic=
ators that<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; are commonly shared into the base IODEF.=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Back in July, we talked ab=
out adding Registry Key/Value pairs and<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; hashes to t=
he main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; Chris below).&nbsp; What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; class off of RecordData, using a similar
 structure to what is in<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; RFC5901, and also added th=
e ability to include hashes in RecordData?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think =
if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structur=
e<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for other sets in the same way we would do with N=
ode inside of the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; System class, using the indicator=
_uid to tie the set together.&nbsp; Then<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; at the mor=
e specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as wel=
l?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?=
&nbsp; I'd like some<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; opinions on this approach.&nbs=
p; +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; other i=
deas that may work
 better.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We'll also need to=
 worry about marking the indicators to prevent<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; forw=
ard sharing when not permitted.&nbsp; We may want to use these values<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or something else.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt; Thank you!<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Harrington, Christopher<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt; Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To:=
 Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: [mile] =
IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think we have a bigg=
er relationship issue to address. Let use the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Watch=
list Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt; that message we could have groupings of indicators that we ne=
ed to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; show are<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
 related:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Two or more indic=
ators of different type that relate to the same<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; thr=
eat:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The file hash of a malicio=
us file and the URL of the C2 that<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the file uses. E=
ither or both may be present to indicate a<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; compromi=
se.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Two or more indicators =
of the same type that relate to the same<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; threat:<br=
>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2 different registry values for t=
he same registry key. If<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; either value is present it=
 is a compromise indicator but both will<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not be pre=
sent.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The problem compounds=
 itself very quickly. Consider the scenario<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; where b=
oth groupings above are part of the same threat. I need
 to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; show that logical groupings of Indicators are r=
elated as well. We<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; can't send multiple IODEF messag=
es for this from what I remember<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; reading.<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The last one I can think of would be=
 when you have 2 different<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indicators that represen=
t the same indicator. It's not uncommon to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; send bot=
h the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MD5<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and SHA1 hash of =
a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs =
to be a<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; higher level grouping.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thoughts?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
 --Chris<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Christopher Harrin=
gton<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Consulting Security Engineer<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt; GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Live=
s<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 174 Middlesex Turnpike<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Be=
dford, MA 01730<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 781-515-5862 (work)<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; 603-583-1585 (cell)<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; From: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc121=
6.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>] On Behalf<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Of Moriarty, Kathleen<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; To: MILE IETF<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; All
 -<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I'd like your input and =
will refocus the thread to get opinions from<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the li=
st on options to help solve the problems raised in my message<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt; and additionally in Paul's message.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Interesting point, C. Henry.&nbsp; Our objective here i=
s to have machine<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; automated exchanges, so we rely o=
n encryption rather than obfuscation<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to achieve the=
 necessary level of confidentiality.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise f=
rom<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; context information that may also include IP ad=
dress or other data<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that could be indicators.&nbsp;=
 The question I raised was on how to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; connect sets o=
f indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming
 the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ability to have watchlists that could have sev=
eral sets of indicators<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; included, as well as to con=
nect indicators that may be included in<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; embedded sc=
hemas.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If we add an attribu=
te on all of the relevant indicators, let's say<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 'in=
dicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?&nbsp; Do we use this to<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent=
 forward<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; sharing when it is not permitted or handle=
 that separately?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Then for =
indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these o=
ff<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventD=
ata? (more details on<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this in my first
 message).<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Comments and que=
stions encouraged to figure out the right technical<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 solution to have this machine automatable.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thank you,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.ya=
hoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [m=
ailto:<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounc=
es@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; O=
f C.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Henry Adams &amp; BIE<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: MILE IE=
TF<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.&nbsp; I re=
member when I first ran<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; across this particular
 craft, an experienced colleague asked me a<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; peculia=
r question.&nbsp; He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the IP Address to your computer?"<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I replied, "I don't know, how?"<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off&nbsp;=
 and the modem that it is<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; connected- which is const=
antly on!"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;LOL<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :&nbsp; There is a 1st Respon=
der<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which we=
re hit by a Disaster<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or let's just say "Live" Terro=
rist Situation.&nbsp; He /or She needs to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; communica=
tion back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; Danger.&nbsp; The device used to communicate has been captured
 by the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; great minds of the enemy.&nbsp; It's only a=
 matter of time before they<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; utilize reverse enginee=
ring to figure out how it functions.&nbsp; However,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; similar devices to attack.&nbsp; Why? Perhaps the less tho=
ught of concepts<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that makes the device function pro=
perly, saves the day by disguise or<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; cutting it off =
(figuratively speaking).<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Ju=
st a visionary thought.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; C. =
Henry Adams<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.=
com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagrou=
p.com</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://biemediagroup.com"
 target=3D"_blank">http://biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The information contained here=
in is for the exclusive use of the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; original recipie=
nt. This information is granted for limited<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; distrib=
ution within the recipient's place of business for planning<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; prohibited.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.=
mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Dave Mi=
sell &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.m=
isell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject=
: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: "C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE"
 &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000=
@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Date: Mon=
day, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt; DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Yours Faithfully,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Dave Misell MSc CISSP<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; S=
ilentCircle&nbsp; dsm<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 07710 380044<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.mi=
sell@bcs.org">david.misell@bcs.org</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adam=
s &amp; BIE<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.ya=
hoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt=
;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;
 Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; was closely related to what I attempted to express when I =
stated,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; "consider to a degree what appears to be il=
logical in brilliant minds<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in some instances."<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; However, I see Dr. Stoecker's p=
oint a little clearer.&nbsp; However, it<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; would be n=
ice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; study this Security Art Form in a negative way.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D=
"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">cha=
tlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email) <a
 href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemed=
iagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The information contained herei=
n is for the exclusive use of the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; original recipien=
t. This information is granted for limited<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; distribu=
tion within the recipient's place of business for planning<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; prohibited.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Su=
nday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; "Stoecker, Paul" &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/m=
c/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com">Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; "<a
 href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mil=
e@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would li=
ke to look at this from a slightly different<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; perspe=
ctiveSlet's say I get an XML document that tells me about an<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; incident.&nbsp; This document has source IP and destination IP th=
at is<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; being shared.&nbsp; However, what I don't kno=
w is which IP address is my<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indicator and which is =
just a contextual piece of information.&nbsp; This<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is t=
he one, even<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; if the roles are set it still might no=
t be enough to tell my system<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; which one I should us=
e
 as the indicator.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If we ha=
d something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt; us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.&nbsp; I d=
o admit to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; being biased as I have spent much of my =
career working on the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; monitoring and detection side=
 of these things, so I am just thinking<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of ways to =
make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; document and the other data that may be important as I investigate<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; activity that I have detected off of those indicators.<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I di=
d suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; flexibility with the indicator_uid.&nbsp; One thing that I haven't<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; considered is the UID portion of thisShow do
 we use that UID?&nbsp; How is<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the UID created?&nbs=
p; Are there standards for UIDs?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; Regards,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Paul<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt; Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; SMC Lead Cont=
ent Architect<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; RSA, The Security Division of EMC<br>=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; cell: 302.379.3375 | e: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com">paul.stoecker@rsa.com</=
a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. =
Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/com=
pose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: C.=
 Henry Adams &amp; BIE &lt;<a
 href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.=
com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: [mi=
le] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: "KathleenMoriarty" &lt;<a href=3D"http=
://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com">kath=
leen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"http:/=
/us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Greetings Kathleen,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Your logic stimulates my visionary brain be=
cause I'm amazed at the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; many avenues you review wit=
h this approach at once.&nbsp; However,&nbsp; could<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 you share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;
 --------------------------------------------------------------------<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --------<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -----------------------=
-----------------------<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; "we could continue to group=
 items in logical places as is done now in<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IODEF an=
d then have the extension point for combined indicators via<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; SCI."<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ------------------------------------=
--------------------------------<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --------<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; ---------------------------------------------<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You pointed out what you consider to be l=
ogical places, but if I<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wanted to protect informati=
on from parties capable of ascertaining it<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; from you=
r logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt; what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some
 instances.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.c=
om">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a hre=
f=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagr=
oup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The information contained herein is for the exclusive use o=
f the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; original recipient. This information is grant=
ed for limited<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; distribution within the recipient's =
place of business for planning<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; purposes only. Furth=
er dissemination, whether private or public is<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; proh=
ibited.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --- On Sat, 1/26/13=
, Moriarty, Kathleen &lt;<a
 href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@=
emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Moriarty, Kathleen &lt=
;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriar=
ty@emc.com">kathleen.moriarty@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subje=
ct: RE: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: "C. Henry Adams &amp; BIE" =
&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@=
yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, "<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>"<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmi=
le@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Date: Saturday, =
January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
Hello C. Henry &amp; others,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; Thanks for
 taking a look at this.&nbsp; We have a few considerations in<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt; this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there ma=
y be<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).<br>=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The AdditionalData class and t=
he RecordItem class both allow for<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; non-XML extensio=
ns.&nbsp; Where you place the extensions should be<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
specific to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; understand more about the included data in most cases.<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The Impact class can be used to=
 provide context information on the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; included data o=
f the report and also can include a confidence rating<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; on the report as a whole.&nbsp; Extensions related to impact would be on=
e<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; level higher (at the moment) in the
 Assessment class using the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; AdditionalData extensio=
n point.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take asked about i=
ncluding vulnerability information, I would think<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; t=
hat would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt; draft in the Method class.&nbsp; He did ask about non-XML.&nb=
sp; RecordItem or<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; AdditionalData do allow for non-X=
ML extension points, we could either<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; have the SCI d=
raft handle these as well or have the extensions that<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; classes according to what makes sense from a logical standpo=
int.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As for my question, it=
 was two-fold.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Indicator ba=
sed schemas have a reference number or a GUID for
 the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; various indicators they share.&nbsp; If we are=
 extending to embed other<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; schemas that include such=
 reference or GUID identifiers, do we want<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to add a=
n attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; indicators?&nbsp; Is this enough to make the connections or is some=
thing<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; else else needed?&nbsp; We could add somethin=
g like an Indicator_ID in<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; RFC5070-bis which would t=
hen correlate to the reference or GUID<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; identifiers.=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Then the other question wa=
s on how to include indicators that are not<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in the =
base schema that may be related or have language with "and"<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; "or"<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; specify th=
e relationships.&nbsp; In some cases, you will want to
 group<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; these indictors in one extension point, wher=
e they may fit logically<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in multiple places if the =
relationships did not need to be shown in<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the data =
format.&nbsp; If we have cases like this where you need more<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; complex representations, should we use one extension point via th=
e<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalDa=
ta extension point?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Opinions are needed here....<br=
>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; A few people have mentioned w=
anting to include some commonly shared<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indictors in=
to the base IODEF document.&nbsp; We could have a catch-all<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; class that does this and has an extension point off of it in<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; EventData or we could continue to group items in logical=
 places as is<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; done now in IODEF and then
 have the extension point for combined<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indicators v=
ia SCI.&nbsp; I think I like the latter approach.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thank you,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Kathleen<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ________________________________________<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; From: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile=
-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.m=
ail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org">mile-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>] On Behalf Of C.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Henry<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
Adams &amp; BIE [<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatlga2000@yahoo.com</a>]<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: <a h=
ref=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@=
ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: C. Henry Adams<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;
 Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; G=
reetings Everyone,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take men=
tioned two types of indicators based on the :<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -----=
---------------------------------------------------------------<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; --------<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --------------------------<br=
>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based =
alert/warning of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; information leakage, it could be a=
n event that are conveyed in the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; SCI's EventReport =
class, IMHO.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 2) If the indi=
cators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; could be conveyed without using SCI draft.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; For i=
nstance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt; the indicators.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We could for
 instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; class, if needed.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ------------------------------=
--------------------------------------<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --------<br>=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --------------------------<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Whereas, Kathleen stated,<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; ------------------------------------------------------------=
--------<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --------<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ---------=
----------------<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; For the discussion below, I was th=
inking more of combined set with<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; relationships that=
 may be included in a single extension point, so<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; th=
at's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; better locations or a specific area within the
 EventData.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Paul Stoecker h=
ad suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; --------------------------------------------------------------------<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --------<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ----------------------=
--<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Kathleen thoughts relate=
d yet still with other indicators and the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; EventData=
 Class.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Is there a possible=
 way to create a new XML class which encompass<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; comb=
ining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; this issue?<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; C. Henry Adams<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"h=
ttp://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com">chatl=
ga2000@yahoo.com</a> (Direct Email)<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a
 href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemed=
iagroup.com">chenryadams@biemediagroup.com</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The information contained herei=
n is for the exclusive use of the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; original recipien=
t. This information is granted for limited<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; distribu=
tion within the recipient's place of business for planning<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; prohibited.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________=
________________________________<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mile mailing list<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D=
"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile"
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ____________________________________=
___________<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mile mailing list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org=
">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/mile" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/mile</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _____________=
__________________________________<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mile mailing lis=
t<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/com=
pose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
 _______________________________________________<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mi=
le mailing list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.ya=
hoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mile mailing list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"h=
ttp://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org=
</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/mile" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ____________________________=
___________________<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mile mailing list<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt; <a
 href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mil=
e@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/mile" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
mile</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; __________________________=
_____________________<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mile mailing list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.o=
rg">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/mile" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/mile</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________=
________________<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; mile mailing list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=
=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@iet=
f.org</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
mile"
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; ____________________________________________=
___<br>&gt;&gt; mile mailing list<br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.m=
ail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org">mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt; =
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;___=
____________________________________________<br>&gt;mile mailing list<br>&g=
t;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org"=
>mile@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
mile" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile</a><br>&=
gt;<br><br></td></tr></table>
---36511695-1834828720-1361338150=:43634--

From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com  Tue Feb 19 23:50:49 2013
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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 02:46:39 -0500
Thread-Topic: [mile] IOCs
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I'd prefer that we don't break the functionality used by a large community =
(CIF).  Instead of deprecating a feature now, why don't we go down the rout=
e of stating a strong preference (RECOMMENDED) for using the tags and listi=
ng a mapping in rfc5070bis for the numeric values?

I'd like to hear from some of the current users as well.

We can revisit this again before we finalize the draft.

Thank you,
Kathleen
________________________________________
From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of C. Henry A=
dams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 12:29 AM
To: MILE IETF
Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs

Greetings Everyone,

After further consideration,  I still tend to lean toward a simplified vers=
ion of the confidence rating.  Which in my opinion, has now changed to ENUM=
 or enumerated type ONLY.

Furthermore,  perhaps { low, medium, high},  should be altered to be {low, =
minor, medium, high, major}

<confidence rating=3D"low">This has a low confidence rating of compromise</=
confidence>

<confidence rating=3D"minor">This has a minor confidence rating of compromi=
se</confidence>

<confidence rating=3D"medium">This has a medium confidence rating of compro=
mise</confidence>

<confidence rating=3D"high">This has a high confidence rating of compromise=
</confidence>

<confidence rating=3D"major">This has a major confidence rating of compromi=
se</confidence>

<< Not sure if the statement below is logical, just Brainstorming>>

Furthermore, let's say Low was map to 1.0.   Minor map to 2.0. Medium map t=
o 3.0  High map to 4.0.  Major map to 5.0

The mapping procedure is the value built-in the ENUM.  (Please feel free to=
 correct me if I'm wrong.)

Then, simple statistical math is apply in some form to equate an overall va=
lue of analysis.

C. Henry Adams




This is exactly my point.  I would leave out the numeric ratings.  I
consume the data and at least with the enumerated type I don't have to
also create a map if I want to get back to low, medium and high.  I will
have to make that transform anyway, so that my SOC knows the confidence
without having to keep looking it up ;-)  I like the simplicity of the
enumerated type=8Apeople can take that and make it into whatever they want
as far as numerics are concerned.



Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
SMC Lead Content Architect
RSA, The Security Division of EMC
cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.c=
om/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>






On 2/19/13 9:43 AM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com<http://us.m=
c1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Deburger-l@standardstrack.com>> wrote:

>If the proposal is 0-19 =3D low, 20-39 =3D =8A, 80-99 =3D high, then why d=
o we
>have the numbers, or why do we have the enumerated type? Either it is a
>number or it is an enumerative value. Having both is asking for trouble.
>
>On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:40 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
><kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>> wrote:
>
>> Should we provide guidance similar or the same as what CIF uses (was
>>posted to the list previously)?  They use direct mapping to 5 levels so
>>that you can have ranges of numeric values used from 0-100, low to high.
>> This would be the easiest solution...
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kathleen
>> ________________________________________
>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> [mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Eric
>>Burger [eburger-l@standardstrack.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Deburger-l@standardstrack.com>]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 7:38 AM
>> To: MILE IETF
>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>
>> If there really is no value to a value, do not let people hurt
>>themselves.
>>
>> If there is a proprietary reason for a value, we should say what we
>>mean and call it such. For example:
>>
>>        <confidence rating=3D"low">This is XML so put your
>>NON-INTEROPERABLE mumble you want here</confidence>
>> or
>>        <confidence rating=3D"high">42</confidence>
>> or
>>        <confidence
>>rating=3D"medium"><mydom:meansSomethingToMe>balderdash</mydom:meansSometh=
in
>>gToMe></confidence>
>>
>> On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:24 AM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>><Christopher.Harrington@emc.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> I would agree that flexibility is something to strive for. However
>>>there
>>> isn't enough in the RFC to make the numeric confidence value
>>>understood by
>>> the recipient and therefore actionable. From the spec:
>>>
>>> "numeric.  The element content contains a number that conveys the
>>>confidence
>>> of the data.  The semantics of this number outside the scope of this
>>> specification"
>>>
>>> Based on that I can score my confidence with 1 being most confident
>>>and 100
>>> being least. Perfectly legitimate but would probably mess everybody
>>>up. What
>>> if my scale is 1000 and yours is 100. I send you something with a
>>>score of
>>> 100 you will think I am absolutely certain when I am only 10% so.
>>>Knowing
>>> how sure the sender is about a piece of data shared is critical. If the
>>> sender puts an arbitrary number in the field I have no point of
>>>reference.
>>> It's meaningless to me.
>>>
>>> We spell out what the relative value is for low/med/high. I know those
>>>are
>>> self-explanatory but they are still spelled out. I would urge that we
>>>do the
>>> same for a numeric value. If not there needs to be something added so
>>>that
>>> in addition to the numeric value I have a point of reference for how
>>>certain
>>> you are based on the number you put there.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?=
to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.=
mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of
>>> Banghart, John
>>> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:42 AM
>>> To: Eric Burger; MILE IETF
>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>
>>> Eric,
>>>
>>> Well, I think you answered your own initial question, but I'm going to
>>>jump
>>> in anyway.  :)
>>>
>>> Generally speaking, I think we want to strike a balance between
>>> standardization and flexibility.  We are unlikely to arrive at any
>>>sort of
>>> one-size-fits-all scheme, no matter how long we talk about it.
>>>Instead, we
>>> should be focusing on solidifying the areas we can all agree on, and
>>>allow
>>> flexibility for those that we don't.  It's an age old clich=E9, but
>>>let's not
>>> let perfect be the enemy of the good.
>>>
>>> -John
>>>
>>> On 2/16/13 12:42 PM, "Eric Burger" <eburger-l@standardstrack.com<http:/=
/us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Deburger-l@standardstrack.com>>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is the justification for both numeric and enumerated values
>>>> (low/medium/high)?  In general such a schema is begging for
>>>> interoperability problems.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose I can understand both sides of the argument.  On the We Need
>>>> Numbers side is those that actually calculate a percentage or other
>>>> objective measure in the confidence may want to use those real
>>>>numbers.
>>>> As well, on the We Need Numbers side is the argument that three
>>>> enumerated values may not prove sufficient in the future. On the We
>>>> Need Enumerated Values side is confidence, other than 0% and 100%,
>>>>tend
>>>> to be arbitrary guesses. Putting a number on this value imparts a
>>>>level
>>>> of specificity that does not exist. Also, it is a lot easier to map
>>>> 'low' to 'low' than it is to map 0-33 to 'low'.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:08 PM, "Harrington, Christopher"
>>>> <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/com=
pose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That will work provided I (and everyone else) has a mapping for the
>>>>> numbers.  I would prefer a simple low/med/high scheme. The more we
>>>>>add
>>>>> the more you have to be able to differentiate between them. However
>>>>> for potential interoperability I do see the benefit of the 5.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:05 PM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you think of IODEF just for transport, could you meet your needs
>>>>> with storing the values differently in a database (IODEF is just
>>>>>meant
>>>>> for the exchange)?  The numbers map to low/med/high - for db storage
>>>>>-
>>>>> if numbers are used, you could store the equivalent value, adding the
>>>>> 2 additional ones provided.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does it make sense to expand the set of values to match what CIF is
>>>>> doing if we went forward with the approach of supporting both
>>>>>options?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc121=
6.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:49 AM
>>>>> To: 'C. Henry Adams & BIE'; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> From a data processing standpoint it is going to create extra work
>>>>> for the people who are going to receive this data if we support both
>>>>> numeric and alpha characters in the same field. I can envision people
>>>>> wanting to search, sort, store, etc the data in this field. If we
>>>>> allow both data types then everyone will need to have a mapping of
>>>>> some sort. I have a field for confidence in my threat tracking
>>>>> database. Having both a numeric score and alpha characters / words
>>>>> creates issues when trying to interact with the data. I agree that we
>>>>> need to support both however I don't think both should be in the same
>>>>> field. I would much rather see 2 different fields for Confidence if
>>>>>we
>>>>> are going to support 2 different data types.
>>>>>
>>>>> This will be a larger issue should Confidence be used elsewhere.
>>>>> Ideally in future revisions I would like to see attribution expressed
>>>>> as  some form of attribution is almost always shared with an IoC.
>>>>> Currently there are 5 areas where we  (EMC) uses confidence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator (how confident are you that this is a valid IoC)
>>>>> Indicator_Set (how confident are you that all of the indcators in the
>>>>> set should be in the set)  Campaign (how confident are you that all
>>>>> Indicator_Sets are part of this campaign)  Threat Actor (how
>>>>>confident
>>>>> are you that the Campaign is attributed to this Threat Actor)  Threat
>>>>> Actor type (how confident are you that this Theat Actor is APT,
>>>>> Crimeware, other)
>>>>>
>>>>> The threat actor name and the threat actor type are usually the first
>>>>> 2 things that anyone processing IoCs wants to know as they drive
>>>>>priority.
>>>>> Knowing how sure the sender is that this IoC is APTis a vital piece
>>>>> of information for us.  Sorry to take us a little off the path but I
>>>>> wanted to show where Confidence could be used.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc121=
6.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
>>>>> Of C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:24 AM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, I would concur that both a numeric and subjective analysis of
>>>>> the Confidence Rating needs to be express, but combined in a
>>>>> simplified schema as such below:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">1LL</> .... etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">2P</>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">3AC</>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">4U</>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D" Alphanumeric">5I</>
>>>>>
>>>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D
>>>>>Urgent,
>>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my point, perhaps a set of numeric related or associated
>>>>> definitions can lower the propagation of error regarding the
>>>>>analysis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that what we really need is both.  In most situations a low,
>>>>> medium and high may be acceptable but there are times when we will
>>>>> want to show that confidence in a situation is increasing or
>>>>> decreasing.  If we are only looking at a three levels, we cannot
>>>>> express what is needed to show confidence is trending up on the data
>>>>> being exchanged about the event.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kathleen included the following in a previous message.
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vs:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>>>
>>>>> I really think we need to include both capabilities as John alluded
>>>>> to since confidence is not a three tiered item but something that is
>>>>> indeed subjective and we need a means to show a reasonably accurate
>>>>> confidence index that the sender is trying to convey.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kent Landfield
>>>>>
>>>>> McAfee | An Intel Company
>>>>> Direct: +1.972.963.7096
>>>>> Mobile: +1.817.637.8026
>>>>> Web: www.mcafee.com
>>>>>
>>>>> From: <Banghart>, John Banghart <john.banghart@nist.gov<http://us.mc1=
216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djohn.banghart@nist.gov>>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:16 AM
>>>>> To: "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com>>, Kathleen Moriarty
>>>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>>, Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch<=
http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>
>>>>> Cc: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1216.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>>, MILE IETF
>>>>> <mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@i=
etf.org>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that confidence is subjective, but subjectivity can be
>>>>> reduced  within communities that interact frequently.  Prioritization
>>>>> of indicators  and response between tightly connected sharing
>>>>>partners
>>>>> might require a  more specific level of detail, particularly during a
>>>>> crisis situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> From that perspective, I think the guidance should allow for
>>>>> additional granularity, while stressing the "high, medium, low" as
>>>>> preferred for broad interoperability.
>>>>>
>>>>> -John
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/13/13 8:04 AM, "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com<http://us=
.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I may have been too succinct in my response ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Confidence is a subjective thing, so I think we should use subjective
>>>>> terms:  Low, Medium, High.  Having a numeric scale with a map that
>>>>> essentially would say something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1-33 =3D Low
>>>>> 34-67=3D Medium
>>>>> 68-100=3DHigh
>>>>>
>>>>> Is just a more complicated way of saying that something is Low,
>>>>> Medium,  High...do we really thing that how High something is makes
>>>>> that much of a  difference?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is like when you get your Performance review where it is Does
>>>>> Not Meet, Meets and Exceeds...your boss tells you that you are a High
>>>>> Meets...your bonus tells you that you got the same bonus that all the
>>>>> other Meets got
>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I digress but trying to prove a point that I would argue that
>>>>> confidence in this case is going to be basically a gut feeling, so
>>>>>why
>>>>> use  numeric values when Low, Medium, High would do just fine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.y=
ahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/13/13 7:48 AM, "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<h=
ttp://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> Both approaches will validate in the current schema.  The
>>>>> representation looks a little different for each, here is an example:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"low"/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vs:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Confidence rating=3D"numeric">85</>
>>>>>
>>>>> Searching capability is a great point, agreed.  I'd like to hear from
>>>>> more people to make sure we don't lose a capability that others find
>>>>> extremely useful (need to gauge that).  Other options is that the
>>>>> guidance can also discourage the use of the numeric in addition to
>>>>> specifying how to select ranges.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any other opinions?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:14 AM
>>>>> To: Brian Trammell
>>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; C. Henry Adams & BIE; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Cant we make Confidence a List that has only 3 values:  High, Medium,
>>>>> and  Low?  Any other value means that the Document will mot validate
>>>>> against  the schema.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:14 AM, "Brian Trammell"
>>>>> <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dtrammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Kathleen, all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think 3.10.4 in 5070 takes the right approach here: trying to build
>>>>> interoperable numeric scales for assessment is a very hard problem.
>>>>> (Were I charged with defining such a scale, the value "70" would mean
>>>>> "we compared this incident report to N past similar incident reports
>>>>> according to similarity algorithm S, and 70% of the past reports had
>>>>> assessed impacts within E% of the actual, measured final impact -- I
>>>>> think for most applications this is vastly more difficult and
>>>>> rigorous than it needs to be.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless a numeric Confidence value is based on some actual, repeatably
>>>>> measurable aspect of the Assessment report -- which I suspect in
>>>>> many/most/all cases it's not -- then it just represents a guess,
>>>>> however educated.  Each team will probably naturally tune its own
>>>>> scales such that each value generally means the same thing in each
>>>>> report. Across teams, I don't know.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, Assessments are by their very nature educated
>>>>> guesses, anyway, so I don't know that I'd find much use in automating
>>>>> a response based on the assessment confidence. Chris has a good
>>>>> point, though -- it makes searching difficult and sorting kind of
>>> pointless.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we've seen a general trend toward "0 =3D 0%, 100 =3D 100%", then I
>>>>> agree, we should put that in the guidance document (along with a note
>>>>> that 0-33 map to low, 34 - 66 map to medium, and 67 - 100 map to
>>>>> high, unless we want to do it non-linearly). If the _vast_majority_
>>>>> of the users of this field use a 100-point scale with 100 meaning
>>>>> "yes" and 0 meaning "any resemblance these values may have to actual
>>>>> fact is purely coincidental", then let's consider renaming it
>>>>>"percent"
>>> in 5070-bis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian (as contributor)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:56 PM, "Moriarty, Kathleen"
>>>>> <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Please see section 3.10.4 of RFC5070 as a starting point.  We can
>>>>> change it if it needs to be changed.  The value is for a confidence
>>>>> rating on the indicators shared.  The definitions may be helpful for
>>>>> anyone who wants to work on this discussion.  IODEF has various
>>>>> markers that can be used in a complimentary way without conflating
>>>>> the markers meaning.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think some people using IODEF find the numerical values more
>>>>> helpful, and it would be good to understand what people have learned
>>>>> from using the current structure (what works/does not work).  The
>>>>> scales I have seen are 0-100.  There is of course a subjective
>>>>> element to assigning a numerical value to the confidence and it may
>>>>> vary from entity to entity.  With this type of rating you may need to
>>>>> consider who it came from and how they scored the confidence rating
>>>>> to map to your own rating.  It would be good to hear more thoughts on
>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE [mailto:chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc=
1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:46 PM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Cc: Moriarty, Kathleen; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the IOCs or Indicators of Compromise, Chris made a vital
>>>>> point.  Different Confidence levels will cause confusion.  It appears
>>>>> that there maybe a need for some type of simplified standardization
>>>>> to be established between all Sharing Groups in this regard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps numerical scoring set at lower values should express levels
>>>>> of urgency.
>>>>> ( i.e.  1 =3D Less Likely,   2 =3D Probable,  3 =3D A Concern,  4 =3D
>>>>>Urgent,
>>>>> 5 =3D Imminent )
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I see some confusion coming down the pike if we start using
>>>>> Confidence the way it is supported. If I am using low/med/high and
>>>>> someone sends me an IoC with a score of 70, what does that mean to
>>>>> me? What if I am using a scale of
>>>>> 1 to 4 and someone else is on a scale of 1 to 5? We lose the ability
>>>>> to describe something with a consistent language. It really gets ugly
>>>>> when we store IoC from multiple sources. I have confidence values
>>>>> that are numeric as well as text.  Makes searching / sorting very
>>>>> problematic.
>>>>>
>>>>> At this point we have to roll with what we have. I would strongly
>>>>> recommend that we revisit this at some point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:59 AM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Chris & Take,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll just focus on the confidence scoring.  Right now, the schema
>>>>> allows for you to either use a numerical score OR the ratings of low,
>>>>> medium, and high.
>>>>> Different sharing groups can decide how they want to share the data.
>>>>> If
>>>>> people were to use the numerical values, I agree it would be helpful
>>>>> to have guidance.  This could go in the IODE guidance document.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen examples of current users that use each of the
>>>>> approaches, so we'll need to keep the option for backwards
>>>>> compatibility and it is nice to keep in flexible options where we
>>>>> can.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:22 AM
>>>>> To: 'Takeshi Takahashi'; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> The number of indicators wouldn't necessarily drive the use of
>>>>> indicator_set_id. The purpose is to show relationship. If I sent 3 IP
>>>>> addresses that were used as C2 for 3 different campaigns I would have
>>>>> separate indicator_set_ids, each with one of the 3 C2 IPs
>>>>>
>>>>> My suggestion would be a simple low, medium, high. I think if we
>>>>> break it down to more levels than that we would need to provide
>>>>> guidance on scoring, rating, etc. I think most people should be able
>>>>> to understand low/med/high without having to have a mathematical
>>>>> method for arriving at the level.
>>>>>
>>>>> Low - I am not sure
>>>>> Medium - I am reasonably sure
>>>>> High - I am very sure
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp<http://u=
s.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:21 AM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Moriarty, Kathleen; Stoecker, Paul;
>>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the indicator_set_id, I agree, it is useful when we need to
>>>>> deal with large sets of indicators.
>>>>> Since indicator_set_id attribute is optional (right?), it could be
>>>>> omitted if we need to deal with only small number of indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the use case, I like the idea of using the confidence
>>>>> attribute for the reason Chris kindly described.
>>>>> I would like to hear a bit more on this: is it going to be numerical?
>>>>> For
>>>>> instance, 1 means "no confidence" while 5 means "strong confidence",
>>>>> etc?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>> Take
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher [mailto:Christopher.Harrington@emc.com<=
http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.=
com>]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:11 AM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Takeshi Takahashi; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> With respect to tying things back to threat actors, from what I have
>>>>> seen and use this is a generally accepted grouping:
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator --> Indictor Set --> Campaign --> Threat Actor
>>>>>
>>>>> Campaign and Threat Actor are where having a "Confidence" attribute
>>>>> would be beneficial as making those associations is not a perfect
>>>>> science by any means.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 2:00 PM
>>>>> To: Takeshi Takahashi; Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; 'MILE
>>>>> IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Take & others,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for chiming in, I've been talking about this with Chris and a
>>>>> few others on their use cases and would like more opinions.  I'll
>>>>> provide an option below from what we have discussed from a CIRC view
>>>>> point.  We are also wondering how to also provide logic in IODEF that
>>>>> could cross over into SCI attached schemas or IODEF extensions (the
>>>>> solutions may all tie together with this discussion - or there may be
>>>>> better/more elegant solutions others would like to propose).
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Takeshi Takahashi [mailto:takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp<http://u=
s.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtakeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:04 PM
>>>>> To: Harrington, Christopher; Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen;
>>>>> 'MILE IETF'
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I like this discussion.
>>>>> I agree, it would be good idea to have indicator identifiers inside
>>>>> the IOC-related classes.
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: At the class level, we may have several indicators listed that
>>>>> should be viewed as a set and may have another instance of that same
>>>>> class that is a related issue, but a separate set.  We could as you
>>>>> say, list the indicator IDs connected through the reference class.
>>>>> The set IDs might give us other ways to group the values when we get
>>>>> into logic and relationships between sets or indicators.  This could
>>>>> also be a way to connect indicators or sets across XML documents that
>>>>> could have been shared previously.  If there are a large number of
>>>>> indicators in the set, then this becomes useful, for smaller sets, I
>>>>> agree it doesn't make as much sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do others think?
>>>>>
>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData?
>>>>> (more details
>>>>> on
>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>
>>>>> If we could see any indicator of compromise as computer event record,
>>>>> we could use SCI:EventReport class as the place for the XML-based
>>>>> IOCs that couldn't fit anywhere else.
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: That sounds like a good idea to me.  This should go into
>>>>> guidance in the SCI draft.  Does anyone else want to weigh in?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For the non-XML IOCs, we could use RecordData class, as suggested.
>>>>> KMM: Sounds good, thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree to have indicator_uid, but I am not sure about the needs of
>>>>> the indicator_set_id.
>>>>> I understand we could do some grouping of individual indicator_uids
>>>>> and its usability, but I am not sure whether we do not have any other
>>>>> way to express these groupings.
>>>>> For instance,  a Reference class refers to several indicadtor_uids.
>>>>> In
>>>>> this case, they could be, in a sense, grouped. Isn't it enough?
>>>>>
>>>>> KMM: It may be, what do you think about large sets of indicators or
>>>>> subsequent messages that add indicators to existing sets?  Would this
>>>>> happen?  Would it be easier to express relationships with sets of
>>>>> indicators in addition to individual indicators?  By using this, it
>>>>> could give us a unique way to also provide the logic and
>>>>> relationships in a new class of IODEF so we don't have to worry about
>>>>> adding it into the current structure.
>>>>> If there are better ways to handle that, and others can provide some
>>>>> options, that would be appreciated!
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> I would appreciate if anybody could share expertise on this. Though I
>>>>> think I have read all the emails in the list, I might have
>>>>> mis-understood some points.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, I think the indicator_uids should be added to the SCI
>>>>> classes'
>>>>> attributes so that they can be correlated with another information as
>>>>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Take
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc121=
6.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:25 AM
>>>>> To: Stoecker, Paul; Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I think some sort of group ID would do the trick. We also need a
>>>>> logical and / or somewhere to show relationship between indicators.
>>>>> If
>>>>> I give you
>>>>> 2
>>>>> registry keys do they both have to be present to be an indication of
>>>>> compromise or is either one by themselves an indicator? Both would
>>>>> have the same group ID since they are related.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Stoecker, Paul
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 8:26 PM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Harrington, Christopher; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> What if we added indicator group ID along with the indicator_uid?
>>>>> This would allow you to group indicators that are related into the
>>>>> same group ID.
>>>>> Would this resolve the issue?
>>>>>
>>>>> It is either that or going back to adding a Detection (or Indicators)
>>>>> class that will should be used to take all of the indicators put them
>>>>> into one place and have the ability to group the ones that go
>>>>> together.  I don't mean a place to put indicators that are missing
>>>>> from IODEF.I mean a place in the IODEF document where you put the
>>>>> indicators that are used for detection and prevention of the shared
>>>>> Incident.  I don't know the answer here, but there has got to be a
>>>>> good way for indicators to be identified and being able to group them
>>>>> as Chris has suggested without basically recreating something
>>>>> complicated like STIX.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.y=
ahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: <Moriarty>, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<http://us.mc121=
6.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>>
>>>>> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:11 PM
>>>>> To: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com<http://=
us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DChristopher.Harrington@emc.com>>, =
MILE
>>>>> IETF <mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dm=
ile@ietf.org>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree, we have some work to do in the updated IODEF, RFC5070-bis.
>>>>>
>>>>> The list has already said they would like to see indicators added to
>>>>> the definitions in RFC5070-bis, to be more explicit about including
>>>>> indicators and sets of indicators in IODE documents as opposed to
>>>>> 'parts of an incident or the useful information on an incident for
>>>>> sharing purposes.  It was written before we used terms like
>>>>> indicators.  With that in mind, Rosella proposed a number of changes
>>>>> back in July, both for guidance and for format updates.  It may help
>>>>> to have the first draft try to address at least some of these issues
>>>>> so people can understand the problems and at least a proposed
>>>>> solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> As you point out, we need to be able to show relationships between
>>>>> sets of indicators, where we may have a few sets of indicators that
>>>>> could have a relationship to each other within a document.  In the
>>>>> July presentation, one of the questions was to see if we should add
>>>>> new category attribute values for the System class that would connect
>>>>> the list of included indicators.  I think we should still keep the
>>>>> concept of a Node to a single node, but perhaps within System, list
>>>>> multiple sets of Nodes that may be one type of attack.  Rosella had
>>>>> suggested pulling forward the "FraudType" from RFC5901, this would
>>>>> help solve the issue as NodeRole values would compliment an
>>>>> AttackType (FraudType values could be included in AttackType or some
>>>>> broader term).  It may be better to have the FraudTypes, plus
>>>>> attribute values like "C2-server", "sinkhole",  "MalwareDistribution"
>>>>> for added context so you know what to do with the received set of
>>>>> indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am proposing that we change IODEF to include multiple sets of
>>>>> indicators, add an AttackType attribute (or some other name), a
>>>>> method to connect indicators and indicator sets within an IODEF using
>>>>> an attribute of indicator_uid (or some other name) with a string
>>>>> value to make the connection points, and add a few indicators that
>>>>> are commonly shared into the base IODEF.
>>>>>
>>>>> Back in July, we talked about adding Registry Key/Value pairs and
>>>>> hashes to the main IODEF document (trying to see if this will help
>>>>> Chris below).  What if we added the Registry Key/Value pairs as a
>>>>> class off of RecordData, using a similar structure to what is in
>>>>> RFC5901, and also added the ability to include hashes in RecordData?
>>>>> I think if we then had the indicator_uid at the RecordData level, we
>>>>> could connect a set within that structure and repeat the structure
>>>>> for other sets in the same way we would do with Node inside of the
>>>>> System class, using the indicator_uid to tie the set together.  Then
>>>>> at the more specific level for the hash, registry Key/value, IP, etc.
>>>>> use an indicator_uid if we needed them marked at this level as well?
>>>>> Maybe we want indicator_set at the higher level?  I'd like some
>>>>> opinions on this approach.  +1 if you agree, suggestions if you have
>>>>> other ideas that may work better.
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll also need to worry about marking the indicators to prevent
>>>>> forward sharing when not permitted.  We may want to use these values
>>>>> or something else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Harrington, Christopher
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:01 PM
>>>>> To: Moriarty, Kathleen; MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we have a bigger relationship issue to address. Let use the
>>>>> Watchlist Use Case. A bunch of indicators are sent in one message. In
>>>>> that message we could have groupings of indicators that we need to
>>>>> show are
>>>>> related:
>>>>>
>>>>> Two or more indicators of different type that relate to the same
>>>>> threat:
>>>>>      The file hash of a malicious file and the URL of the C2 that
>>>>> the file uses. Either or both may be present to indicate a
>>>>> compromise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Two or more indicators of the same type that relate to the same
>>>>> threat:
>>>>>      2 different registry values for the same registry key. If
>>>>> either value is present it is a compromise indicator but both will
>>>>> not be present.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem compounds itself very quickly. Consider the scenario
>>>>> where both groupings above are part of the same threat. I need to
>>>>> show that logical groupings of Indicators are related as well. We
>>>>> can't send multiple IODEF messages for this from what I remember
>>>>> reading.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last one I can think of would be when you have 2 different
>>>>> indicators that represent the same indicator. It's not uncommon to
>>>>> send both the
>>>>> MD5
>>>>> and SHA1 hash of a malicious file. The indicator is the file but the
>>>>> IOCs are the 2 hash values. How do we show they are related? If we
>>>>> use a unique Inidcator ID for each hash value there needs to be a
>>>>> higher level grouping.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> Christopher Harrington
>>>>> Consulting Security Engineer
>>>>> GSO - Critical Incident Response Center EMC - Where Information Lives
>>>>> 174 Middlesex Turnpike
>>>>> Bedford, MA 01730
>>>>> 781-515-5862 (work)
>>>>> 603-583-1585 (cell)
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc121=
6.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Moriarty, Kathleen
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 11:28 AM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> All -
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like your input and will refocus the thread to get opinions from
>>>>> the list on options to help solve the problems raised in my message
>>>>> and additionally in Paul's message.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting point, C. Henry.  Our objective here is to have machine
>>>>> automated exchanges, so we rely on encryption rather than obfuscation
>>>>> to achieve the necessary level of confidentiality.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul mentioned the need to distinguish indicators of compromise from
>>>>> context information that may also include IP address or other data
>>>>> that could be indicators.  The question I raised was on how to
>>>>> connect sets of indicators in the same IODEF document, assuming the
>>>>> ability to have watchlists that could have several sets of indicators
>>>>> included, as well as to connect indicators that may be included in
>>>>> embedded schemas.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we add an attribute on all of the relevant indicators, let's say
>>>>> 'indicator-uid' how do we mark the indicators?  Do we use this to
>>>>> mark who sent the indicator as well so that we can prevent forward
>>>>> sharing when it is not permitted or handle that separately?
>>>>>
>>>>> Then for indicators not included in the base schema that may not fit
>>>>> into a category in the SCI draft, do we create a place for these off
>>>>> of SCI or right off of the IODE schema in EventData? (more details on
>>>>> this in my first message).
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments and questions encouraged to figure out the right technical
>>>>> solution to have this machine automatable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc121=
6.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
>>>>> Of C.
>>>>> Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:25 PM
>>>>> To: MILE IETF
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Temporal Dependency sounds interesting.  I remember when I first ran
>>>>> across this particular craft, an experienced colleague asked me a
>>>>> peculiar question.  He said, " How do you stop someone from tracking
>>>>> the IP Address to your computer?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I replied, "I don't know, how?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Then he said, "Cut the dog-gone thing off  and the modem that it is
>>>>> connected- which is constantly on!"   LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my point (Hypothetical Situation) :  There is a 1st Responder
>>>>> searching a Neighborhood for Survivors which were hit by a Disaster
>>>>> or let's just say "Live" Terrorist Situation.  He /or She needs to
>>>>> communication back to other Officials that he /or somehow is in
>>>>> Danger.  The device used to communicate has been captured by the
>>>>> great minds of the enemy.  It's only a matter of time before they
>>>>> utilize reverse engineering to figure out how it functions.  However,
>>>>> their pride comes before a fall when seeking the location of other
>>>>> similar devices to attack.  Why? Perhaps the less thought of concepts
>>>>> that makes the device function properly, saves the day by disguise or
>>>>> cutting it off (figuratively speaking).
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a visionary thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/comp=
ose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com>
>>>>> http://biemediagroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org<http://us.mc12=
16.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Dave Misell <david.misell@bcs.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.c=
om/mc/compose?to=3Ddavid.misell@bcs.org>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1216.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>>
>>>>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 9:25 PM UID could be mirrored with
>>>>> DNS SEC a pemanent and temporal key, with a temporal Id?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours Faithfully,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave Misell MSc CISSP
>>>>> SilentCircle  dsm
>>>>> 07710 380044
>>>>> david.misell@bcs.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
david.misell@bcs.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:39, C. Henry Adams & BIE
>>>>> <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Serialization of a particular Lists of XML Classes in a unique way
>>>>> was closely related to what I attempted to express when I stated,
>>>>> "consider to a degree what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds
>>>>> in some instances."
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I see Dr. Stoecker's point a little clearer.  However, it
>>>>> would be nice if the UID was in some way disguised from those who
>>>>> study this Security Art Form in a negative way.
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Email) chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<http=
://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:52 PM
>>>>> From:
>>>>> "Stoecker, Paul" <Paul.Stoecker@rsa.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.c=
om/mc/compose?to=3DPaul.Stoecker@rsa.com>>
>>>>> To:
>>>>> "mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@i=
etf.org>" <mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmi=
le@ietf.org>>
>>>>> I would like to look at this from a slightly different
>>>>> perspectiveSlet's say I get an XML document that tells me about an
>>>>> incident.  This document has source IP and destination IP that is
>>>>> being shared.  However, what I don't know is which IP address is my
>>>>> indicator and which is just a contextual piece of information.  This
>>>>> means that my detection product isn't going to know which one to use
>>>>> either, because there is nothing to tell me which IP is the one, even
>>>>> if the roles are set it still might not be enough to tell my system
>>>>> which one I should use as the indicator.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we had something like indicator_id as an attribute, it would allow
>>>>> us to easily identify indicators from contextual data.  I do admit to
>>>>> being biased as I have spent much of my career working on the
>>>>> monitoring and detection side of these things, so I am just thinking
>>>>> of ways to make it very clear what the indicators are in the XML
>>>>> document and the other data that may be important as I investigate
>>>>> activity that I have detected off of those indicators.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I did suggest the detection class, but I think we may get more
>>>>> flexibility with the indicator_uid.  One thing that I haven't
>>>>> considered is the UID portion of thisShow do we use that UID?  How is
>>>>> the UID created?  Are there standards for UIDs?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul W. Stoecker, Ph.D.
>>>>> SMC Lead Content Architect
>>>>> RSA, The Security Division of EMC
>>>>> cell: 302.379.3375 | e: paul.stoecker@rsa.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.y=
ahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpaul.stoecker@rsa.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http=
://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: C. Henry Adams & BIE <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1216.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "KathleenMoriarty" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<http://us.mc1216.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>>
>>>>> Cc: mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmil=
e@ietf.org>
>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 6:17 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings Kathleen,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your logic stimulates my visionary brain because I'm amazed at the
>>>>> many avenues you review with this approach at once.  However,  could
>>>>> you share a few advantages and disadvantages to the latter?
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>> "we could continue to group items in logical places as is done now in
>>>>> IODEF and then have the extension point for combined indicators via
>>>>> SCI."
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> You pointed out what you consider to be logical places, but if I
>>>>> wanted to protect information from parties capable of ascertaining it
>>>>> from your logical places, perhaps we should also consider to a degree
>>>>> what appears to be illogical in brilliant minds in some instances.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Email)
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/comp=
ose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<ht=
tp://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com<http://us.mc1216.=
mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkathleen.moriarty@emc.com>>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [mile] IOCs
>>>>> To: "C. Henry Adams & BIE" <chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1216.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>>, "mile@ietf.org<http:/=
/us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.org>"
>>>>> <mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@i=
etf.org>>
>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello C. Henry & others,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for taking a look at this.  We have a few considerations in
>>>>> this email thread I would like to hear thoughts on (and there may be
>>>>> more once RFC5070-bis is actively edited).
>>>>>
>>>>> The AdditionalData class and the RecordItem class both allow for
>>>>> non-XML extensions.  Where you place the extensions should be
>>>>> specific to the logical grouping of the parent elements so you can
>>>>> understand more about the included data in most cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Impact class can be used to provide context information on the
>>>>> included data of the report and also can include a confidence rating
>>>>> on the report as a whole.  Extensions related to impact would be one
>>>>> level higher (at the moment) in the Assessment class using the
>>>>> AdditionalData extension point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take asked about including vulnerability information, I would think
>>>>> that would fit under the Vulnerability extension point of the SCI
>>>>> draft in the Method class.  He did ask about non-XML.  RecordItem or
>>>>> AdditionalData do allow for non-XML extension points, we could either
>>>>> have the SCI draft handle these as well or have the extensions that
>>>>> are non-XML come directly off the AdditionalData or RecordItem
>>>>> classes according to what makes sense from a logical standpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for my question, it was two-fold.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicator based schemas have a reference number or a GUID for the
>>>>> various indicators they share.  If we are extending to embed other
>>>>> schemas that include such reference or GUID identifiers, do we want
>>>>> to add an attribute to the various elements in IODEF that could be
>>>>> indicators?  Is this enough to make the connections or is something
>>>>> else else needed?  We could add something like an Indicator_ID in
>>>>> RFC5070-bis which would then correlate to the reference or GUID
>>>>> identifiers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the other question was on how to include indicators that are not
>>>>> in the base schema that may be related or have language with "and"
>>>>> "or"
>>>>> to
>>>>> specify the relationships.  In some cases, you will want to group
>>>>> these indictors in one extension point, where they may fit logically
>>>>> in multiple places if the relationships did not need to be shown in
>>>>> the data format.  If we have cases like this where you need more
>>>>> complex representations, should we use one extension point via the
>>>>> SCI draft off of the EventData class AdditionalData extension point?
>>>>> Opinions are needed here....
>>>>>
>>>>> A few people have mentioned wanting to include some commonly shared
>>>>> indictors into the base IODEF document.  We could have a catch-all
>>>>> class that does this and has an extension point off of it in
>>>>> EventData or we could continue to group items in logical places as is
>>>>> done now in IODEF and then have the extension point for combined
>>>>> indicators via SCI.  I think I like the latter approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org> [mile-bounces@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.=
yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of C.
>>>>> Henry
>>>>> Adams & BIE [chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc=
/compose?to=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com>]
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:05 AM
>>>>> To: mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmil=
e@ietf.org>
>>>>> Cc: C. Henry Adams
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mile] IOCs
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings Everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> Take mentioned two types of indicators based on the :
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>> 1) If the indicators are something like an XML-based alert/warning of
>>>>> information leakage, it could be an event that are conveyed in the
>>>>> SCI's EventReport class, IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) If the indicators are something like an non-XML ones, I guess it
>>>>> could be conveyed without using SCI draft.
>>>>> For instance, we could use Impact class of the base IODEF to convey
>>>>> the indicators.
>>>>> We could for instance extend the list of indicators of the Impact
>>>>> class, if needed.
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> In doing so he pointed out the "Impact Class"
>>>>>
>>>>> Whereas, Kathleen stated,
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> -------------------------
>>>>> For the discussion below, I was thinking more of combined set with
>>>>> relationships that may be included in a single extension point, so
>>>>> that's why I was thinking about the EventData class, but there may be
>>>>> better locations or a specific area within the EventData.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Stoecker had suggested a "Detection" class as a consideration.
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------
>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Kathleen thoughts related yet still with other indicators and the
>>>>> EventData Class.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a possible way to create a new XML class which encompass
>>>>> combining the EventData, Detection and base IODEF classes to simplify
>>>>> this issue?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C. Henry Adams
>>>>> chatlga2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dchatlga2000@yahoo.com> (Direct Email)
>>>>> chenryadams@biemediagroup.com<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/comp=
ose?to=3Dchenryadams@biemediagroup.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The information contained herein is for the exclusive use of the
>>>>> original recipient. This information is granted for limited
>>>>> distribution within the recipient's place of business for planning
>>>>> purposes only. Further dissemination, whether private or public is
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ie=
tf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ie=
tf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ie=
tf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ie=
tf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ie=
tf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mile mailing list
>>>>> mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ie=
tf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mile mailing list
>>>> mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@iet=
f.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mile mailing list
>>> mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf=
.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mile mailing list
>> mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.=
org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mile mailing list
>mile@ietf.org<http://us.mc1216.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmile@ietf.or=
g>
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile
>



From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com  Tue Feb 19 23:57:54 2013
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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 02:57:33 -0500
Thread-Topic: Mail fields
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Subject: [mile] Mail fields
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Hi,

In looking at the updated rfc5070bis and coming across some requests for ha=
ndling certain types of exchanges, I am curious to hear how others think we=
 should handle mail related indicators and incidents.  A couple of commonly=
 exchanged fields were added into the Record class.  You can still extend o=
ut using RFC5901 and include a full mail message, but if you wanted to incl=
ude DKIM or Sender Policy Framework, you need something else.  The IETF gro=
up MARF already solved these issues.

MARF uses the email tags rather than XML and there was a draft that embedde=
d MARF content into IODEF (contains an example), can be found here:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vesely-mile-mail-abuse-00

Since mail is already marked and can be parsed, would this be a better opti=
on to use what MARF has already done to solve the question on how to exchan=
ge this data?  Other options would be to update RFC5901 or to extend IODEF =
further.  I prefer the use of MARF.  It is already in use by mail operators=
, so there is adoption.

Thanks,
Kathleen=

From Christopher.Harrington@emc.com  Wed Feb 20 11:57:34 2013
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From: "Harrington, Christopher" <Christopher.Harrington@emc.com>
To: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 14:57:16 -0500
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I'm for the simplest solution as always. These are the indicator types that
we routinely share. I would use these as a base:

Email address (denoting if it is to or from) 
Email Subject
Email attachment name
Email attachment hash
X-Mailer (from header)
Hyperlink in email

It's also very common to share the whole header. Bad guys routinely forge
them and put extra header items that can be used as indicators.  Although
not an indicator sharing the entire email as an .eml or .msg file is also
pretty common.

Thanks,

--Chris


-----Original Message-----
From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:58 AM
To: mile@ietf.org
Subject: [mile] Mail fields

Hi,

In looking at the updated rfc5070bis and coming across some requests for
handling certain types of exchanges, I am curious to hear how others think
we should handle mail related indicators and incidents.  A couple of
commonly exchanged fields were added into the Record class.  You can still
extend out using RFC5901 and include a full mail message, but if you wanted
to include DKIM or Sender Policy Framework, you need something else.  The
IETF group MARF already solved these issues.

MARF uses the email tags rather than XML and there was a draft that embedded
MARF content into IODEF (contains an example), can be found here:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vesely-mile-mail-abuse-00

Since mail is already marked and can be parsed, would this be a better
option to use what MARF has already done to solve the question on how to
exchange this data?  Other options would be to update RFC5901 or to extend
IODEF further.  I prefer the use of MARF.  It is already in use by mail
operators, so there is adoption.

Thanks,
Kathleen
_______________________________________________
mile mailing list
mile@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile


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From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com  Thu Feb 21 02:19:28 2013
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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: "mile@ietf.org" <mile@ietf.org>, "marf@ietf.org" <marf@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 05:19:11 -0500
Thread-Topic: Including Mail fields in IODEF
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Subject: [mile] Including Mail fields in IODEF
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Hello,

Cross posting with MAIL and MARF -=20

In MILE related work, I have come across use cases that would like to inclu=
de DKIM and SPF information in addition to specific mail fields (like the o=
nes Chris lists below).  We would like some help to figure out the best app=
roach.  Should we embed ARF and MARF RFC extensions to accommodate this nee=
d or should we look at updating RFC5901?  Both take the approach of includi=
ng an email message as opposed to using XML to tag each field and allow for=
 this in the data model (in my opinion, that is fine and reduces bloat, but=
 there may be other opinions).

There was a draft published last year (link included below) that includes M=
ARF in an IODE extension.

Thanks,
Kathleen
________________________________________
From: Harrington, Christopher
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:57 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; mile@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Mail fields

I'm for the simplest solution as always. These are the indicator types that
we routinely share. I would use these as a base:

Email address (denoting if it is to or from)
Email Subject
Email attachment name
Email attachment hash
X-Mailer (from header)
Hyperlink in email

It's also very common to share the whole header. Bad guys routinely forge
them and put extra header items that can be used as indicators.  Although
not an indicator sharing the entire email as an .eml or .msg file is also
pretty common.

Thanks,

--Chris


-----Original Message-----
From: mile-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mile-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:58 AM
To: mile@ietf.org
Subject: [mile] Mail fields

Hi,

In looking at the updated rfc5070bis and coming across some requests for
handling certain types of exchanges, I am curious to hear how others think
we should handle mail related indicators and incidents.  A couple of
commonly exchanged fields were added into the Record class.  You can still
extend out using RFC5901 and include a full mail message, but if you wanted
to include DKIM or Sender Policy Framework, you need something else.  The
IETF group MARF already solved these issues.

MARF uses the email tags rather than XML and there was a draft that embedde=
d
MARF content into IODEF (contains an example), can be found here:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vesely-mile-mail-abuse-00

Since mail is already marked and can be parsed, would this be a better
option to use what MARF has already done to solve the question on how to
exchange this data?  Other options would be to update RFC5901 or to extend
IODEF further.  I prefer the use of MARF.  It is already in use by mail
operators, so there is adoption.

Thanks,
Kathleen
_______________________________________________
mile mailing list
mile@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mile

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From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>
To: MILE IETF <mile@ietf.org>, "tony@yaanatech.com" <tony@yaanatech.com>
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From vesely@tana.it  Sun Feb 24 05:56:46 2013
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From: Alessandro Vesely <vesely@tana.it>
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Cc: Managed Incident Lightweight Exchange IODEF extensions and RID exchanges <mile@ietf.org>, "marf@ietf.org" <marf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mile] [marf] Including Mail fields in IODEF
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Hi Kathleen,

On Thu 21/Feb/2013 11:19:11 +0100 Moriarty, Kathleen wrote:
> 
> Cross posting with MAIL and MARF - 

Hey, I never realized that meaning of pronouncing "mile", otherwise I
wouldn't have unsubscribed :-)

> There was a draft published last year (link included below) that
> includes MARF in an IODEF extension.

Yeah, that slavishly translated and ARF mail into XML.  Its only
practical trait is to represent header fields with a lowercase name,
for example:

 <arf:Field name="x-mailer">QUALCOMM Windows Eudora</arf:Field>

That kind of thing can be useful to get a value quickly; that is,
while parsing the XML.  If the alternative is to extract the whole
message (or header) and then parse that in turn, it might be worth to
have it.

From trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch  Mon Feb 25 09:53:22 2013
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From: Brian Trammell <trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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To: "<mile@ietf.org>" <mile@ietf.org>
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Subject: [mile] DRAFT Agenda for IETF 86 Orlando
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Greetings, all,

The draft agenda for the MILE session at IETF 86 in Orlando has been =
posted to:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/86/agenda/mile/

Please direct comments or questions to mile-chairs@tools.ietf.org.

Best regards,

Brian=
