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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:24:42 -0500
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Subject: [MLS] Stupidest possible message protection
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Hey all,

As we discussed in Bangkok, there are trade-offs between encrypting
handshake messages and enabling the delivery service to assist with
scaling.

One way to try to split this baby would be to try to evaluate what
information the server needs in order to provide its assistance, and leave
that unencrypted.  This solution would of course require that we convince
ourselves that the unencrypted bits are actually not sensitive, and would
entail a fair bit of complexity in the encryption system.

Another, simpler, approach we could take is to punt the decision to the
application.  We would define in the document two options:

1. Send Handshake messages in the clear
2. Send Handshake messages encrypted as Application messages

(And specify details like how you do Welcome+Add, how you disambiguate
Handshake from other Application messages.)  But we would not specify which
of those paths a given application would do.

What do folks think about that idea?  Personally, I find it kind of
appealing in its simplicity, though I acknowledge it adds another variable
for interop testing / interop failure.  And if you want to make an MLS API,
it's another switch to support.

Cheers,
--RIchard

--000000000000bd4cf6057c1180fe
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hey all,</div><div><br></div><div>As we discussed in =
Bangkok, there are trade-offs between encrypting handshake messages and ena=
bling the delivery service to assist with scaling.=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br=
></div><div>One way to try to split this baby would be to try to evaluate w=
hat information the server needs in order to provide its assistance, and le=
ave that unencrypted.=C2=A0 This solution would of course require that we c=
onvince ourselves that the unencrypted bits are actually not sensitive, and=
 would entail a fair bit of complexity in the encryption system.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Another, simpler, approach we could take is to punt the deci=
sion to the application.=C2=A0 We would define in the document two options:=
</div><div><br></div><div>1. Send Handshake messages in the clear</div><div=
>2. Send Handshake messages encrypted as Application messages</div><div><br=
></div><div>(And specify details like how you do Welcome+Add, how you disam=
biguate Handshake from other Application messages.)=C2=A0 But we would not =
specify which of those paths a given application would do.</div><div><br></=
div><div>What do folks think about that idea?=C2=A0 Personally, I find it k=
ind of appealing in its simplicity, though I acknowledge it adds another va=
riable for interop testing / interop failure.=C2=A0 And if you want to make=
 an MLS API, it&#39;s another switch to support.</div><div><br></div><div>C=
heers,</div><div>--RIchard<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

--000000000000bd4cf6057c1180fe--


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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 14:30:50 -0800
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To: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Stupidest possible message protection
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On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 2:25 PM Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> As we discussed in Bangkok, there are trade-offs between encrypting hands=
hake messages and enabling the delivery service to assist with scaling.
>
> One way to try to split this baby would be to try to evaluate what inform=
ation the server needs in order to provide its assistance, and leave that u=
nencrypted.  This solution would of course require that we convince ourselv=
es that the unencrypted bits are actually not sensitive, and would entail a=
 fair bit of complexity in the encryption system.
>
> Another, simpler, approach we could take is to punt the decision to the a=
pplication.  We would define in the document two options:
>
> 1. Send Handshake messages in the clear
> 2. Send Handshake messages encrypted as Application messages
>
> (And specify details like how you do Welcome+Add, how you disambiguate Ha=
ndshake from other Application messages.)  But we would not specify which o=
f those paths a given application would do.
>
> What do folks think about that idea?  Personally, I find it kind of appea=
ling in its simplicity, though I acknowledge it adds another variable for i=
nterop testing / interop failure.  And if you want to make an MLS API, it's=
 another switch to support.

Doesn't the server need to agree with the client how to do this? And
what about downgrade attacks?
>
> Cheers,
> --RIchard
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls



--=20
"Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains".
--Rousseau.


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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:51:33 -0500
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To: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Stupidest possible message protection
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On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 17:31 Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 2:25 PM Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > As we discussed in Bangkok, there are trade-offs between encrypting
> handshake messages and enabling the delivery service to assist with scali=
ng.
> >
> > One way to try to split this baby would be to try to evaluate what
> information the server needs in order to provide its assistance, and leav=
e
> that unencrypted.  This solution would of course require that we convince
> ourselves that the unencrypted bits are actually not sensitive, and would
> entail a fair bit of complexity in the encryption system.
> >
> > Another, simpler, approach we could take is to punt the decision to the
> application.  We would define in the document two options:
> >
> > 1. Send Handshake messages in the clear
> > 2. Send Handshake messages encrypted as Application messages
> >
> > (And specify details like how you do Welcome+Add, how you disambiguate
> Handshake from other Application messages.)  But we would not specify whi=
ch
> of those paths a given application would do.
> >
> > What do folks think about that idea?  Personally, I find it kind of
> appealing in its simplicity, though I acknowledge it adds another variabl=
e
> for interop testing / interop failure.  And if you want to make an MLS AP=
I,
> it's another switch to support.
>
> Doesn't the server need to agree with the client how to do this?


The server needs to be aware of it=E2=80=99s going to provide any assistanc=
e, yes.
  But in principle, clients could choose to encrypt and the server would
never know.  I think the more important question is whether clients all
need to agree.

And
> what about downgrade attacks?


Seems like there are basically two choices: (1) don=E2=80=99t worry about i=
t, let
the application figure it out, or (2) include the =E2=80=9CencryptHandshake=
=E2=80=9D bit in
the GroupState so that everyone agrees on it.

I think (1) is probably sufficient, since I think most apps will pick one.
But (2) seems prudent.

=E2=80=94Richard



> >
> > Cheers,
> > --RIchard
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MLS mailing list
> > MLS@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>
>
>
> --
> "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains".
> --Rousseau.
>

--0000000000005ce7e1057c11e0b2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sun,=
 Dec 2, 2018 at 17:31 Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.c=
om">watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 2:25 PM Richard Barnes &lt;rlb@ipv.sx&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hey all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; As we discussed in Bangkok, there are trade-offs between encrypting ha=
ndshake messages and enabling the delivery service to assist with scaling.<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; One way to try to split this baby would be to try to evaluate what inf=
ormation the server needs in order to provide its assistance, and leave tha=
t unencrypted.=C2=A0 This solution would of course require that we convince=
 ourselves that the unencrypted bits are actually not sensitive, and would =
entail a fair bit of complexity in the encryption system.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Another, simpler, approach we could take is to punt the decision to th=
e application.=C2=A0 We would define in the document two options:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 1. Send Handshake messages in the clear<br>
&gt; 2. Send Handshake messages encrypted as Application messages<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; (And specify details like how you do Welcome+Add, how you disambiguate=
 Handshake from other Application messages.)=C2=A0 But we would not specify=
 which of those paths a given application would do.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; What do folks think about that idea?=C2=A0 Personally, I find it kind =
of appealing in its simplicity, though I acknowledge it adds another variab=
le for interop testing / interop failure.=C2=A0 And if you want to make an =
MLS API, it&#39;s another switch to support.<br>
<br>
Doesn&#39;t the server need to agree with the client how to do this? </bloc=
kquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The server needs to be=
 aware of it=E2=80=99s going to provide any assistance, yes. =C2=A0 But in =
principle, clients could choose to encrypt and the server would never know.=
=C2=A0 I think the more important question is whether clients all need to a=
gree.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">And<b=
r>
what about downgrade attacks?</blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">Seems like there are basically two choices: (1) don=E2=80=99t =
worry about it, let the application figure it out, or (2) include the =E2=
=80=9CencryptHandshake=E2=80=9D bit in the GroupState so that everyone agre=
es on it.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I think (1) is=
 probably sufficient, since I think most apps will pick one.=C2=A0 But (2) =
seems prudent.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=E2=80=94=
Richard</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; --RIchard<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; MLS mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
&quot;Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains&quot;.<br>
--Rousseau.<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000005ce7e1057c11e0b2--


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Subject: Re: [MLS] Stupidest possible message protection
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This seems like a neat approach; I agree that putting the bit into the
GroupState is a good idea.
As Watson says, this could be an opening for downgrade attacks, so we
should make sure that there's as little negotiation as possible about
the "encrypt handshake messages" bit. Having it just go in the group
state and requiring clients to know it seems fine, although there is the
case of an app which previously didn't encrypt handshake messages and
now wants to.
At a high level I support the idea.

k


On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, at 10:51 PM, Richard Barnes wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 17:31 Watson Ladd
> <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:>> On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 2:25 PM Richard B=
arnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>>  >
>>  > Hey all,
>>  >
>>  > As we discussed in Bangkok, there are trade-offs between
>>  > encrypting handshake messages and enabling the delivery service to
>>  > assist with scaling.>>  >
>>  > One way to try to split this baby would be to try to evaluate what
>>  > information the server needs in order to provide its assistance,
>>  > and leave that unencrypted.  This solution would of course require
>>  > that we convince ourselves that the unencrypted bits are actually
>>  > not sensitive, and would entail a fair bit of complexity in the
>>  > encryption system.>>  >
>>  > Another, simpler, approach we could take is to punt the decision
>>  > to the application.  We would define in the document two options:>>  >
>>  > 1. Send Handshake messages in the clear
>>  > 2. Send Handshake messages encrypted as Application messages
>>  >
>>  > (And specify details like how you do Welcome+Add, how you
>>  > disambiguate Handshake from other Application messages.)  But
>>  > we would not specify which of those paths a given application
>>  > would do.>>  >
>>  > What do folks think about that idea?  Personally, I find it kind
>>  > of appealing in its simplicity, though I acknowledge it adds
>>  > another variable for interop testing / interop failure.  And if
>>  > you want to make an MLS API, it's another switch to support.>>=20
>>  Doesn't the server need to agree with the client how to do this?
>=20
> The server needs to be aware of it=E2=80=99s going to provide any assista=
nce,
> yes.   But in principle, clients could choose to encrypt and the
> server would never know.  I think the more important question is
> whether clients all need to agree.>=20
>> And
>>  what about downgrade attacks?
>=20
> Seems like there are basically two choices: (1) don=E2=80=99t worry
> about it, let the application figure it out, or (2) include the
> =E2=80=9CencryptHandshake=E2=80=9D bit in the GroupState so that everyone
> agrees on it.>=20
> I think (1) is probably sufficient, since I think most apps will pick
> one.  But (2) seems prudent.>=20
> =E2=80=94Richard
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> >
>>  > Cheers,
>>  > --RIchard
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > _______________________________________________
>>  > MLS mailing list
>>  > MLS@ietf.org
>>  > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>  --=20
>>  "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains".
>>  --Rousseau.
> _________________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls


--_----------=_154379251322704950
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<title></title>
<style type=3D"text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style>
</head>
<body><div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">This seems like a neat app=
roach; I agree that putting the bit into the GroupState is a good idea.<br>=
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">As Watson says, this could be an=
 opening for downgrade attacks, so we should make sure that there's as litt=
le negotiation as possible about the "encrypt handshake messages" bit. Havi=
ng it just go in the group state and requiring clients to know it seems fin=
e, although there is the case of an app which previously didn't encrypt han=
dshake messages and now wants to.<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">At a high level I support the id=
ea.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">k</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, at 10:51 PM, Richard Barnes wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br></div>
<div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br></div>
<div defang_data-gmailquote=3D"yes"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at=
 17:31 Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">watsonbladd=
@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote defang_data-gmailquote=3D"yes" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-r=
ight:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-l=
eft-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;"><di=
v style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 2:25 PM Rich=
ard Barnes &lt;rlb@ipv.sx&gt; wrote:<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt;<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; Hey all,<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt;<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; As we discussed in Bangkok=
, there are trade-offs between encrypting handshake messages and enabling t=
he delivery service to assist with scaling.<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt;<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; One way to try to split th=
is baby would be to try to evaluate what information the server needs in or=
der to provide its assistance, and leave that unencrypted.&nbsp; This solut=
ion would of course require that we convince ourselves that the unencrypted=
 bits are actually not sensitive, and would entail a fair bit of complexity=
 in the encryption system.<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt;<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; Another, simpler, approach=
 we could take is to punt the decision to the application.&nbsp; We would d=
efine in the document two options:<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt;<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; 1. Send Handshake messages=
 in the clear<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; 2. Send Handshake messages=
 encrypted as Application messages<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt;<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; (And specify details like =
how you do Welcome+Add, how you disambiguate Handshake from other Applicati=
on messages.)&nbsp; But we would not specify which of those paths a given a=
pplication would do.<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt;<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; What do folks think about =
that idea?&nbsp; Personally, I find it kind of appealing in its simplicity,=
 though I acknowledge it adds another variable for interop testing / intero=
p failure.&nbsp; And if you want to make an MLS API, it's another switch to=
 support.<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> <br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> Doesn't the server need to agre=
e with the client how to do this?<br></div>
</blockquote><div><br></div>
<div>The server needs to be aware of it=E2=80=99s going to provide any assi=
stance, yes. &nbsp; But in principle, clients could choose to encrypt and t=
he server would never know.&nbsp; I think the more important question is wh=
ether clients all need to agree.<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote defang_data-gmailquote=3D"yes" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-r=
ight:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-l=
eft-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;"><di=
v style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">And<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> what about downgrade attacks?<b=
r></div>
</blockquote><div><br></div>
<div>Seems like there are basically two choices: (1) don=E2=80=99t worry ab=
out it, let the application figure it out, or (2) include the =E2=80=9Cencr=
yptHandshake=E2=80=9D bit in the GroupState so that everyone agrees on it.<=
br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I think (1) is probably sufficient, since I think most apps will pick =
one.&nbsp; But (2) seems prudent.<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>=E2=80=94Richard<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote defang_data-gmailquote=3D"yes" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-r=
ight:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-l=
eft-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;"><di=
v style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">&gt;<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; Cheers,<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; --RIchard<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt;<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt;<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; __________________________=
_____________________<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; MLS mailing list<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf=
.org">MLS@ietf.org</a><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/mls">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><b=
r></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> <br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> <br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> <br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> -- <br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> "Man is born free, but everywhe=
re he is in chains".<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"> --Rousseau.<br></div>
</blockquote></div>
</div>
<div><u>_______________________________________________</u><br></div>
<div>MLS mailing list<br></div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org">MLS@ietf.org</a><br></div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls">https://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br></div>
</blockquote><div style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br></div>
</body>
</html>

--_----------=_154379251322704950--


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From: Karthikeyan Bhargavan <karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Stupidest possible message protection
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> One way to try to split this baby would be to try to evaluate what =
information the server needs in order to provide its assistance, and =
leave that unencrypted.  This solution would of course require that we =
convince ourselves that the unencrypted bits are actually not sensitive, =
and would entail a fair bit of complexity in the encryption system.

Let me poke a bit more at this option. What minimal information do you =
think the server needs in order to provide its assistance?

-Karthik

>=20
> Another, simpler, approach we could take is to punt the decision to =
the application.  We would define in the document two options:
>=20
> 1. Send Handshake messages in the clear
> 2. Send Handshake messages encrypted as Application messages
>=20
> (And specify details like how you do Welcome+Add, how you disambiguate =
Handshake from other Application messages.)  But we would not specify =
which of those paths a given application would do.
>=20
> What do folks think about that idea?  Personally, I find it kind of =
appealing in its simplicity, though I acknowledge it adds another =
variable for interop testing / interop failure.  And if you want to make =
an MLS API, it's another switch to support.
>=20
> Cheers,
> --RIchard
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls


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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
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--0000000000007d2227057c19efa3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 3:01 AM Karthikeyan Bhargavan <
karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com> wrote:

> > One way to try to split this baby would be to try to evaluate what
> information the server needs in order to provide its assistance, and leave
> that unencrypted.  This solution would of course require that we convince
> ourselves that the unencrypted bits are actually not sensitive, and would
> entail a fair bit of complexity in the encryption system.
>
> Let me poke a bit more at this option. What minimal information do you
> think the server needs in order to provide its assistance?
>

If you take a look at Raphael's slides from the Bangkok meeting, there are
a couple of different types of assistance the server might provide.  Most
of these revolve around the linear-size pieces of group state: The (public
keys in the) tree and the roster.  The server could cache a copy of the
tree so that clients could download slices of it as needed.  Clients would
have to either trust the server to do this or arrange the hash in the
GroupState so that the slices could be verified.  That's where a lot of the
complexity comes from.

Arguably, there's no harm in exposing the tree, since it should just be all
random key material.  (Except in the case where you put a DH key from a
UserInitKey at a leaf, in which case it can be used to correlate.)
Exposing the roster is obviously problematic.  Maybe Raphael has some ideas
here.

--Richard

[1]
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/slides-103-mls-sessa-efficiency-00



>
> -Karthik
>
> >
> > Another, simpler, approach we could take is to punt the decision to the
> application.  We would define in the document two options:
> >
> > 1. Send Handshake messages in the clear
> > 2. Send Handshake messages encrypted as Application messages
> >
> > (And specify details like how you do Welcome+Add, how you disambiguate
> Handshake from other Application messages.)  But we would not specify which
> of those paths a given application would do.
> >
> > What do folks think about that idea?  Personally, I find it kind of
> appealing in its simplicity, though I acknowledge it adds another variable
> for interop testing / interop failure.  And if you want to make an MLS API,
> it's another switch to support.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > --RIchard
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MLS mailing list
> > MLS@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>
>

--0000000000007d2227057c19efa3
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 3:01 AM Karthikeyan Bhargavan &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com">karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">&gt; One=
 way to try to split this baby would be to try to evaluate what information=
 the server needs in order to provide its assistance, and leave that unencr=
ypted.=C2=A0 This solution would of course require that we convince ourselv=
es that the unencrypted bits are actually not sensitive, and would entail a=
 fair bit of complexity in the encryption system.<br>
<br>
Let me poke a bit more at this option. What minimal information do you thin=
k the server needs in order to provide its assistance?<br></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div>If you take a look at Raphael&#39;s slides from the Bangkok=
 meeting, there are a couple of different types of assistance the server mi=
ght provide.=C2=A0 Most of these revolve around the linear-size pieces of g=
roup state: The (public keys in the) tree and the roster.=C2=A0 The server =
could cache a copy of the tree so that clients could download slices of it =
as needed.=C2=A0 Clients would have to either trust the server to do this o=
r arrange the hash in the GroupState so that the slices could be verified.=
=C2=A0 That&#39;s where a lot of the complexity comes from.<br></div><div><=
br></div><div>Arguably, there&#39;s no harm in exposing the tree, since it =
should just be all random key material.=C2=A0 (Except in the case where you=
 put a DH key from a UserInitKey at a leaf, in which case it can be used to=
 correlate.)=C2=A0 Exposing the roster is obviously problematic.=C2=A0 Mayb=
e Raphael has some ideas here.</div><div><br></div><div>--Richard<br></div>=
<div><br></div><div>[1] <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103=
/materials/slides-103-mls-sessa-efficiency-00">https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/meeting/103/materials/slides-103-mls-sessa-efficiency-00</a><br></div><div=
><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x">
<br>
-Karthik<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Another, simpler, approach we could take is to punt the decision to th=
e application.=C2=A0 We would define in the document two options:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 1. Send Handshake messages in the clear<br>
&gt; 2. Send Handshake messages encrypted as Application messages<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; (And specify details like how you do Welcome+Add, how you disambiguate=
 Handshake from other Application messages.)=C2=A0 But we would not specify=
 which of those paths a given application would do.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; What do folks think about that idea?=C2=A0 Personally, I find it kind =
of appealing in its simplicity, though I acknowledge it adds another variab=
le for interop testing / interop failure.=C2=A0 And if you want to make an =
MLS API, it&#39;s another switch to support.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; --RIchard<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; MLS mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--0000000000007d2227057c19efa3--


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Subject: Re: [MLS] Stupidest possible message protection
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I agree with Richard that letting clients choose is a good idea. I think =
that for the sake of simplicity clients should choose whether to encrypt =
HS messages or not right at group creation (and prevent downgrade =
attacks by committing to extra state in the group state, just as =
mentioned). We can always explore later how we would handle =E2=80=9CHS =
message protection agility=E2=80=9D, if this turns out to be necessary.

The tree
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

The parts of the HS messages that would have to be in cleartext are =
mentioned on Richard=E2=80=99s slides [1] on the last slide ("Expose =
information for server assist=E2=80=9D). The exposed bits are marked in =
orange.
This exposes the public DH keys of the tree to the server, as well as =
the structure of the tree. It allows the server to cache that data and =
make it available to new clients/members, so that existing =
clients/members don=E2=80=99t have to upload that data again. New =
clients/members can selectively download parts of the tree or all of it.

Right now I can think of 3 problems that should be further assessed:

1) How sensitive is a tree with only public keys? Does it leak more than =
the obvious statistical metadata (such as: group size, frequency of =
updates/add/removes, etc.)? If the leaf keys contain the same DH public =
key as UserInitKeys that are published on the server (because the =
clients did not yet perform an update), those leaves could be correlated =
with an identity of the members (see also further below in the roster =
section).

2) What if the server is not honest and modifies the tree? The remedy =
that has been proposed is to use an additional Merkle tree to verify the =
integrity of the ratcheting tree. The root of the Merkle tree would be =
transmitted as an encrypted commit hash in a Welcome HS (see penultimate =
slide of [1]).

3) What if the server is honest, but cannot distinguish between valid =
and invalid HS messages (and therefore caches the wrong values)? This =
problem could theoretically be solved with ZK proofs (mentioned in a =
different thread on the ML), but the preliminary conclusion is that ZK =
proofs would most likely be too expensive. Instead, the server could do =
versioning and discard version based on a sufficient number of NACKs =
received from different clients. Potentially clients could also request =
a specific version that is identified by the commit hash.
Note that this is also a problem for clients even when fully encrypted =
HS messages are used. Clients cannot always know if a HS message is =
valid or not (see relevant thread on the ML).

The roster
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

The roster is unambiguously considered sensitive data, as it is =
essentially the members list of a group. The DS is the server part =
tasked with delivering messages, therefore the DS needs some notion of =
where to deliver messages to as they come in from clients. A few =
possibilities exist:

1) The roster is public anyway: In that case no special protection is =
needed on the HS level.

2) The recipient list is sent to the DS in real-time with every message =
that is sent out by a client. In that case the roster is only =
temporarily visible to the DS for the time of the fanout. This is =
probably similar to observable metadata in terms of scope, as long as =
the DS doesn=E2=80=99t not persist the recipient list anywhere.
2a) Similar to 2), but the participant list is stored on the DS =
encrypted with a key that is only held by clients and shared with the =
server every time a message is sent (and the server forgets the key =
immediately after the fan-out). This solutions does not have any FS as =
such, unless we can come up with more fancy schemes such as proxy =
re-encryption (see separate thread on the ML).

3) A fancy and privacy-preserving pubsub scheme? Suggestions are =
welcome, but keep in mind that most messengers use push notifications =
for smartphones (Apple push notifications and Google FCM) that require =
messages to be actively pushed to them, rather than listening for =
messages that fly by.

If the DS doe not have any knowledge of the roster whatsoever, we =
probably have to think about DoS attacks against a group. For example, =
an evicted member could still spam the group with (invalid) messages, =
because in a naive implementation the evicted member just needs to know =
the group ID to ask the server to fan out messages.
There might be privacy-preserving ways to prove group membership, such =
as re-using the root key pair of the ratcheting tree as a signing key =
pair. The server could verify those signatures and come to the =
conclusion the signing member must know the current private root key, as =
opposed to an evicted member. Further (and more formal) scrutiny would =
be good here.

In a nutshell, these are the ideas I=E2=80=99ve heard and discussed with =
folks so far. If I missed something or if you think there are =
alternative ways to better solve these problems, please chime in here or =
on the other relevant threads of the ML.=20

Raphael


[1] =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/slides-103-mls-sessa-st=
uff-00

> On 3 Dec 2018, at 09:28, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 3:01 AM Karthikeyan Bhargavan =
<karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com <mailto:karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com>> =
wrote:
> > One way to try to split this baby would be to try to evaluate what =
information the server needs in order to provide its assistance, and =
leave that unencrypted.  This solution would of course require that we =
convince ourselves that the unencrypted bits are actually not sensitive, =
and would entail a fair bit of complexity in the encryption system.
>=20
> Let me poke a bit more at this option. What minimal information do you =
think the server needs in order to provide its assistance?
>=20
> If you take a look at Raphael's slides from the Bangkok meeting, there =
are a couple of different types of assistance the server might provide.  =
Most of these revolve around the linear-size pieces of group state: The =
(public keys in the) tree and the roster.  The server could cache a copy =
of the tree so that clients could download slices of it as needed.  =
Clients would have to either trust the server to do this or arrange the =
hash in the GroupState so that the slices could be verified.  That's =
where a lot of the complexity comes from.
>=20
> Arguably, there's no harm in exposing the tree, since it should just =
be all random key material.  (Except in the case where you put a DH key =
from a UserInitKey at a leaf, in which case it can be used to =
correlate.)  Exposing the roster is obviously problematic.  Maybe =
Raphael has some ideas here.
>=20
> --Richard
>=20
> [1] =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/slides-103-mls-sessa-ef=
ficiency-00 =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/slides-103-mls-sessa-e=
fficiency-00>
>=20
> =20
>=20
> -Karthik
>=20
> >=20
> > Another, simpler, approach we could take is to punt the decision to =
the application.  We would define in the document two options:
> >=20
> > 1. Send Handshake messages in the clear
> > 2. Send Handshake messages encrypted as Application messages
> >=20
> > (And specify details like how you do Welcome+Add, how you =
disambiguate Handshake from other Application messages.)  But we would =
not specify which of those paths a given application would do.
> >=20
> > What do folks think about that idea?  Personally, I find it kind of =
appealing in its simplicity, though I acknowledge it adds another =
variable for interop testing / interop failure.  And if you want to make =
an MLS API, it's another switch to support.
> >=20
> > Cheers,
> > --RIchard
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > MLS mailing list
> > MLS@ietf.org <mailto:MLS@ietf.org>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls


--Apple-Mail=_70070139-304A-441D-9C0E-A11030D1D1EB
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I agree with Richard that =
letting clients choose is a good idea. I think that for the sake of =
simplicity clients should choose whether to encrypt HS messages or not =
right at group creation (and prevent downgrade attacks by committing to =
extra state in the group state, just as mentioned). We can always =
explore later how we would handle =E2=80=9CHS message protection =
agility=E2=80=9D, if this turns out to be necessary.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The tree</div><div =
class=3D"">=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The parts of the HS messages that would =
have to be in cleartext are mentioned on Richard=E2=80=99s slides [1] on =
the last slide ("Expose information for server assist=E2=80=9D). The =
exposed bits are marked in orange.</div><div class=3D"">This exposes the =
public DH keys of the tree to the server, as well as the structure of =
the tree. It allows the server to cache that data and make it available =
to new clients/members, so that existing clients/members don=E2=80=99t =
have to upload that data again. New clients/members can selectively =
download parts of the tree or all of it.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Right now I can think of 3 problems =
that should be further assessed:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1) How sensitive is a tree with only =
public keys? Does it leak more than the obvious statistical metadata =
(such as: group size, frequency of updates/add/removes, etc.)? If the =
leaf keys contain the same DH public key as UserInitKeys that are =
published on the server (because the clients did not yet perform an =
update), those leaves could be correlated with an identity of the =
members (see also further below in the roster section).</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2) What if the server is =
not honest and modifies the tree? The remedy that has been proposed is =
to use an additional Merkle tree to verify the integrity of the =
ratcheting tree. The root of the Merkle tree would be transmitted as an =
encrypted commit hash in a Welcome HS (see penultimate slide of =
[1]).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">3) What =
if the server is honest, but cannot distinguish between valid and =
invalid HS messages (and therefore caches the wrong values)? This =
problem could theoretically be solved with ZK proofs (mentioned in a =
different thread on the ML), but the preliminary conclusion is that ZK =
proofs would most likely be too expensive. Instead, the server could do =
versioning and discard version based on a sufficient number of NACKs =
received from different clients. Potentially clients could also request =
a specific version that is identified by the commit hash.</div><div =
class=3D"">Note that this is also a problem for clients even when fully =
encrypted HS messages are used. Clients cannot always know if a HS =
message is valid or not (see relevant thread on the ML).</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The roster</div><div =
class=3D"">=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The roster is =
unambiguously considered sensitive data, as it is essentially the =
members list of a group. The DS is the server part tasked with =
delivering messages, therefore the DS needs some notion of where to =
deliver messages to as they come in from clients. A few possibilities =
exist:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1) The =
roster is public anyway: In that case no special protection is needed on =
the HS level.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2)=
 The recipient list is sent to the DS in real-time with every message =
that is sent out by a client. In that case the roster is only =
temporarily visible to the DS for the time of the fanout. This is =
probably similar to observable metadata in terms of scope, as long as =
the DS doesn=E2=80=99t not persist the recipient list =
anywhere.</div><div class=3D"">2a) Similar to 2), but the participant =
list is stored on the DS encrypted with a key that is only held by =
clients and shared with the server every time a message is sent (and the =
server forgets the key immediately after the fan-out). This solutions =
does not have any FS as such, unless we can come up with more fancy =
schemes such as proxy re-encryption (see separate thread on the =
ML).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">3) A =
fancy and privacy-preserving pubsub scheme? Suggestions are welcome, but =
keep in mind that most messengers use push notifications for smartphones =
(Apple push notifications and Google FCM) that require messages to be =
actively pushed to them, rather than listening for messages that fly =
by.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If the DS =
doe not have any knowledge of the roster whatsoever, we probably have to =
think about DoS attacks against a group. For example, an evicted member =
could still spam the group with (invalid) messages, because in a naive =
implementation the evicted member just needs to know the group ID to ask =
the server to fan out messages.</div><div class=3D"">There might be =
privacy-preserving ways to prove group membership, such as re-using the =
root key pair of the ratcheting tree as a signing key pair. The server =
could verify those signatures and come to the conclusion the signing =
member must know the current private root key, as opposed to an evicted =
member. Further (and more formal) scrutiny would be good here.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In a nutshell, these are =
the ideas I=E2=80=99ve heard and discussed with folks so far. If I =
missed something or if you think there are alternative ways to better =
solve these problems, please chime in here or on the other relevant =
threads of the ML.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Raphael</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">[1]&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/slides-103-mls-=
sessa-stuff-00" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/slides-103-m=
ls-sessa-stuff-00</a><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 3 Dec 2018, at 09:28, =
Richard Barnes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlb@ipv.sx" =
class=3D"">rlb@ipv.sx</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at =
3:01 AM Karthikeyan Bhargavan &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">&gt; One way to try to split this =
baby would be to try to evaluate what information the server needs in =
order to provide its assistance, and leave that unencrypted.&nbsp; This =
solution would of course require that we convince ourselves that the =
unencrypted bits are actually not sensitive, and would entail a fair bit =
of complexity in the encryption system.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Let me poke a bit more at this option. What minimal information do you =
think the server needs in order to provide its assistance?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">If you take a look at Raphael's slides from the Bangkok =
meeting, there are a couple of different types of assistance the server =
might provide.&nbsp; Most of these revolve around the linear-size pieces =
of group state: The (public keys in the) tree and the roster.&nbsp; The =
server could cache a copy of the tree so that clients could download =
slices of it as needed.&nbsp; Clients would have to either trust the =
server to do this or arrange the hash in the GroupState so that the =
slices could be verified.&nbsp; That's where a lot of the complexity =
comes from.<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Arguably, there's no harm in exposing the tree, since it =
should just be all random key material.&nbsp; (Except in the case where =
you put a DH key from a UserInitKey at a leaf, in which case it can be =
used to correlate.)&nbsp; Exposing the roster is obviously =
problematic.&nbsp; Maybe Raphael has some ideas here.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">--Richard<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">[1] =
<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/slides-103-mls-=
sessa-efficiency-00" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/slides-103-m=
ls-sessa-efficiency-00</a><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br class=3D"">
-Karthik<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; Another, simpler, approach we could take is to punt the decision to =
the application.&nbsp; We would define in the document two options:<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; 1. Send Handshake messages in the clear<br class=3D"">
&gt; 2. Send Handshake messages encrypted as Application messages<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; (And specify details like how you do Welcome+Add, how you =
disambiguate Handshake from other Application messages.)&nbsp; But we =
would not specify which of those paths a given application would do.<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; What do folks think about that idea?&nbsp; Personally, I find it =
kind of appealing in its simplicity, though I acknowledge it adds =
another variable for interop testing / interop failure.&nbsp; And if you =
want to make an MLS API, it's another switch to support.<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; Cheers,<br class=3D"">
&gt; --RIchard<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; _______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
&gt; MLS mailing list<br class=3D"">
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">MLS@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">MLS =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">MLS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_70070139-304A-441D-9C0E-A11030D1D1EB--


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From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
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To: Raphael Robert <raphael=40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Stupidest possible message protection
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> On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:46 AM, Raphael Robert =
<raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> I agree with Richard that letting clients choose is a good idea. I =
think that for the sake of simplicity clients should choose whether to =
encrypt HS messages or not right at group creation

It is not clear to me how a user would make that choice.  They do not =
really have much visibility into the consequences of the choice.  So, it =
would be good for this group to make to choice or provide a concise =
description of those consequences in language a user might find helpful.

Russ


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:46 AM, Raphael Robert &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I agree with Richard that =
letting clients choose is a good idea. I think that for the sake of =
simplicity clients should choose whether to encrypt HS messages or not =
right at group creation</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"">It is not clear to me how a user would make that choice. =
&nbsp;They do not really have much visibility into the consequences of =
the choice. &nbsp;So, it would be good for this group to make to choice =
or provide a concise description of those consequences in language a =
user might find helpful.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Russ</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [MLS] Stupidest possible message protection
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I think "clients choose" != "users choose" --- rather, whoever builds
this into their application makes the choice for their users in the
client code.

On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, at 9:10 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:46 AM, Raphael Robert
>> <raphael=40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:>> 
>> I agree with Richard that letting clients choose is a good idea. I
>> think that for the sake of simplicity clients should choose whether
>> to encrypt HS messages or not right at group creation> 
> It is not clear to me how a user would make that choice.  They do not
> really have much visibility into the consequences of the choice.  So,
> it would be good for this group to make to choice or provide a concise
> description of those consequences in language a user might find
> helpful.> 
> Russ
> 
> _________________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls


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<body><div style="font-family:georgia, serif;">I think "clients choose" != "users choose" --- rather, whoever builds this into their application makes the choice for their users in the client code.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, at 9:10 PM, Russ Housley wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-family:georgia, serif;"><br></div>
<div><div style="font-family:georgia, serif;"><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div>On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:46 AM, Raphael Robert &lt;<a href="mailto:raphael=40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org">raphael=40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>
<div style="font-family:georgia, serif;"><br></div>
<div><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica"><span class="size" style="font-size:12px">I agree with Richard that letting clients choose is a good idea. I think that for the sake of simplicity clients should choose whether to encrypt HS messages or not right at group creation</span></span><br></div>
</blockquote></div>
<div style="font-family:georgia, serif;"><br></div>
<div>It is not clear to me how a user would make that choice. &nbsp;They do not really have much visibility into the consequences of the choice. &nbsp;So, it would be good for this group to make to choice or provide a concise description of those consequences in language a user might find helpful.<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Russ<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><u>_______________________________________________</u><br></div>
<div>MLS mailing list<br></div>
<div><a href="mailto:MLS@ietf.org">MLS@ietf.org</a><br></div>
<div><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br></div>
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> On 3 Dec 2018, at 22:27, Katriel Cohn-Gordon <me@katriel.co.uk> wrote:
>=20
> I think "clients choose" !=3D "users choose" --- rather, whoever =
builds this into their application makes the choice for their users in =
the client code.

That=E2=80=99s what I meant. It will be up to the application vendor to =
decide on the UX.

>=20
>=20
> On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, at 9:10 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:46 AM, Raphael Robert =
<raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> I agree with Richard that letting clients choose is a good idea. I =
think that for the sake of simplicity clients should choose whether to =
encrypt HS messages or not right at group creation
>>=20
>>=20
>> It is not clear to me how a user would make that choice.  They do not =
really have much visibility into the consequences of the choice.  So, it =
would be good for this group to make to choice or provide a concise =
description of those consequences in language a user might find helpful.
>>=20
>> Russ
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLS mailing list
>> MLS@ietf.org <mailto:MLS@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org <mailto:MLS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 3 Dec 2018, at 22:27, Katriel Cohn-Gordon &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:me@katriel.co.uk" class=3D"">me@katriel.co.uk</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: georgia, serif;" class=3D"">I think =
"clients choose" !=3D "users choose" --- rather, whoever builds this =
into their application makes the choice for their users in the client =
code.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>That=E2=80=99s =
what I meant. It will be up to the application vendor to decide on the =
UX.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">On =
Mon, 3 Dec 2018, at 9:10 PM, Russ Housley wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family: georgia, serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"font-family: georgia, =
serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:46 AM, Raphael Robert =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: georgia, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"font" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><span class=3D"size" style=3D"font-size:=
 12px;">I agree with Richard that letting clients choose is a good idea. =
I think that for the sake of simplicity clients should choose whether to =
encrypt HS messages or not right at group creation</span></span><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"font-family: georgia, =
serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is not clear =
to me how a user would make that choice. &nbsp;They do not really have =
much visibility into the consequences of the choice. &nbsp;So, it would =
be good for this group to make to choice or provide a concise =
description of those consequences in language a user might find =
helpful.<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Russ<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</u><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">MLS mailing list<br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" class=3D"">MLS@ietf.org</a><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: georgia, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">MLS mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">MLS@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
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text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a></div></blockquote=
></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 16:38:44 -0500
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Stupidest possible message protection
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Do you also mean that all the clients in a group decide independently?
(Even with a single vendor, you could have version migrations). Or does the
group need to agree?

On Mon, Dec 3, 2018, 16:37 Raphael Robert <raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.=
org
wrote:

>
>
> On 3 Dec 2018, at 22:27, Katriel Cohn-Gordon <me@katriel.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I think "clients choose" !=3D "users choose" --- rather, whoever builds t=
his
> into their application makes the choice for their users in the client cod=
e.
>
>
> That=E2=80=99s what I meant. It will be up to the application vendor to d=
ecide on
> the UX.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, at 9:10 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
>
>
>
> On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:46 AM, Raphael Robert <
> raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> I agree with Richard that letting clients choose is a good idea. I think
> that for the sake of simplicity clients should choose whether to encrypt =
HS
> messages or not right at group creation
>
>
> It is not clear to me how a user would make that choice.  They do not
> really have much visibility into the consequences of the choice.  So, it
> would be good for this group to make to choice or provide a concise
> description of those consequences in language a user might find helpful.
>
> Russ
>
> *_______________________________________________*
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">Do you also mean that all the clients in a group decide i=
ndependently?=C2=A0 (Even with a single vendor, you could have version migr=
ations). Or does the group need to agree?</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Dec 3, 2018, 16:37 Raphael Robert &lt;raphael=
=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org</=
a> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:b=
reak-word;line-break:after-white-space"><br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div>On 3 Dec 2018, at 22:27, Katriel Cohn-Gordon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:me@katriel.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">me@katriel.co.uk</a=
>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-6181796525489232509Apple-interchange-newl=
ine"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:=
normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decorati=
on:none;font-family:georgia,serif">I think &quot;clients choose&quot; !=3D =
&quot;users choose&quot; --- rather, whoever builds this into their applica=
tion makes the choice for their users in the client code.</div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div>That=E2=80=99s what I meant. It will be up to the app=
lication vendor to decide on the UX.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal=
;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;text-decoration:none"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;f=
ont-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br></div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-de=
coration:none">On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, at 9:10 PM, Russ Housley wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;fo=
nt-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style=3D"font-family:georgi=
a,serif"><br></div><div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:46 AM, Raphael Robert =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
" rel=3D"noreferrer">raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><span class=
=3D"m_-6181796525489232509font" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica"><span class=
=3D"m_-6181796525489232509size" style=3D"font-size:12px">I agree with Richa=
rd that letting clients choose is a good idea. I think that for the sake of=
 simplicity clients should choose whether to encrypt HS messages or not rig=
ht at group creation</span></span><br></div></blockquote></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div>It is not clear to me how a u=
ser would make that choice.=C2=A0 They do not really have much visibility i=
nto the consequences of the choice.=C2=A0 So, it would be good for this gro=
up to make to choice or provide a concise description of those consequences=
 in language a user might find helpful.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Russ<b=
r></div><div><br></div><div><u>____________________________________________=
___</u><br></div><div>MLS mailing list<br></div><div><a href=3D"mailto:MLS@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">MLS@ietf.org</a><br></div><d=
iv><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br></div><=
/blockquote><div style=3D"font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decora=
tion:none;font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><span style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:n=
one;display:inline!important">_____________________________________________=
__</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:norma=
l;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline=
!important">MLS mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-=
size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><a href=3D"mailto:ML=
S@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal=
;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">MLS@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0p=
x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:n=
one"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a></div></blockq=
uote></div><br></div>_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">MLS@ie=
tf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br=
>
</blockquote></div>

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Subject: Re: [MLS] Stupidest possible message protection
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As I said earlier:

> I think that for the sake of simplicity clients should choose whether =
to encrypt HS messages or not right at group creation (and prevent =
downgrade attacks by committing to extra state in the group state, just =
as mentioned). We can always explore later how we would handle =E2=80=9CHS=
 message protection agility=E2=80=9D, if this turns out to be necessary.

In other words, HS encryption should be fixed for now. Possibly even =
forever, unless we come to the conclusion it=E2=80=99s a bad idea.

> On 3 Dec 2018, at 22:38, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>=20
> Do you also mean that all the clients in a group decide independently? =
 (Even with a single vendor, you could have version migrations). Or does =
the group need to agree?
>=20
> On Mon, Dec 3, 2018, 16:37 Raphael Robert =
<raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> On 3 Dec 2018, at 22:27, Katriel Cohn-Gordon <me@katriel.co.uk =
<mailto:me@katriel.co.uk>> wrote:
>>=20
>> I think "clients choose" !=3D "users choose" --- rather, whoever =
builds this into their application makes the choice for their users in =
the client code.
>=20
> That=E2=80=99s what I meant. It will be up to the application vendor =
to decide on the UX.
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, at 9:10 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:46 AM, Raphael Robert =
<raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I agree with Richard that letting clients choose is a good idea. I =
think that for the sake of simplicity clients should choose whether to =
encrypt HS messages or not right at group creation
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> It is not clear to me how a user would make that choice.  They do =
not really have much visibility into the consequences of the choice.  =
So, it would be good for this group to make to choice or provide a =
concise description of those consequences in language a user might find =
helpful.
>>>=20
>>> Russ
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLS mailing list
>>> MLS@ietf.org <mailto:MLS@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls>
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLS mailing list
>> MLS@ietf.org <mailto:MLS@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org <mailto:MLS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls


--Apple-Mail=_24D1C12D-99EF-4DDA-A2FD-2907F26588FD
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">As =
I said earlier:<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&gt; =
I think that for the sake of simplicity clients should choose whether to =
encrypt HS messages or not right at group creation (and prevent =
downgrade attacks by committing to extra state in the group state, just =
as mentioned). We can always explore later how we would handle =E2=80=9CHS=
 message protection agility=E2=80=9D, if this turns out to be =
necessary.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In =
other words, HS encryption should be fixed for now. Possibly even =
forever, unless we come to the conclusion it=E2=80=99s a bad idea.<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 3 Dec 2018, at 22:38, Richard Barnes &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rlb@ipv.sx" class=3D"">rlb@ipv.sx</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D"">Do you also mean that all the clients in a group decide =
independently?&nbsp; (Even with a single vendor, you could have version =
migrations). Or does the group need to agree?</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On Mon, Dec 3, 2018, =
16:37 Raphael Robert &lt;raphael=3D<a =
href=3D"mailto:40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a> wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
..8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 3 Dec 2018, at 22:27, Katriel Cohn-Gordon =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:me@katriel.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">me@katriel.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_-6181796525489232509Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font=
-family:georgia,serif" class=3D"">I think "clients choose" !=3D "users =
choose" --- rather, whoever builds this into their application makes the =
choice for their users in the client code.</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>That=E2=80=99s what I meant. It will be =
up to the application vendor to decide on the UX.</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D"">On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, at 9:10 PM, Russ =
Housley wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Dec 3, 2018, at 10:46 AM, Raphael Robert &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"m_-6181796525489232509font" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica"><span=
 class=3D"m_-6181796525489232509size" style=3D"font-size:12px">I agree =
with Richard that letting clients choose is a good idea. I think that =
for the sake of simplicity clients should choose whether to encrypt HS =
messages or not right at group creation</span></span><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It is not clear to me how a user would make that =
choice.&nbsp; They do not really have much visibility into the =
consequences of the choice.&nbsp; So, it would be good for this group to =
make to choice or provide a concise description of those consequences in =
language a user might find helpful.<br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Russ<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</u><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">MLS mailing list<br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">MLS@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font=
-family:georgia,serif" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">MLS =
mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"">MLS@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none" class=3D""><a =
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_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">MLS =
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From: Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com>
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Subject: [MLS] MLS WG JAN 2019 Interim Meeting - registration required
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You will have seen the meeting announcement recently sent to the list =
[0].  Nick and I need to get an accurate headcount for those who plan to =
attend in person and remotely.  The registration link can be found at:
https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/master/interim-2019-01
We will close registration at 2359UTC on 21 December 2018.

spt

[0] =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mls/nQ_yb3xRUXTQzh6r3wR_6qEokyw=


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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 13:45:58 -0500
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To: Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com>
Cc: mls@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mls/5FylMXydu-tci0l_-rWw2LXpB3o>
Subject: Re: [MLS] MLS WG JAN 2019 Interim Meeting - registration required
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If the chairs could let us know the venue soon, it would be helpful in
booking travel.

Thanks,
--Richard

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 12:45 PM Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:

> You will have seen the meeting announcement recently sent to the list
> [0].  Nick and I need to get an accurate headcount for those who plan to
> attend in person and remotely.  The registration link can be found at:
> https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/master/interim-2019-01
> We will close registration at 2359UTC on 21 December 2018.
>
> spt
>
> [0] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mls/nQ_yb3xRUXTQzh6r3wR_6qEokyw
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>

--000000000000455907057c36ae44
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>If the chairs could let us know the venue soon, it wo=
uld be helpful in booking travel.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,<br></div=
><div>--Richard<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"l=
tr">On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 12:45 PM Sean Turner &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sean@=
sn3rd.com">sean@sn3rd.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">You will have seen the meeting announcement recently sent to the list=
 [0].=C2=A0 Nick and I need to get an accurate headcount for those who plan=
 to attend in person and remotely.=C2=A0 The registration link can be found=
 at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/master/interim-2019-0=
1" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materia=
ls/tree/master/interim-2019-01</a><br>
We will close registration at 2359UTC on 21 December 2018.<br>
<br>
spt<br>
<br>
[0] <a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mls/nQ_yb3xRUXTQzh6r3w=
R_6qEokyw" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mailarchive.ietf.or=
g/arch/msg/mls/nQ_yb3xRUXTQzh6r3wR_6qEokyw</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000455907057c36ae44--


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Subject: [MLS] Reminder (was Re: MLS WG JAN 2019 Interim Meeting - registration required)
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Please remember to register for the interim meeting.  Note that we have =
12 registered for in-person.

spt

> On Dec 4, 2018, at 12:43, Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:
>=20
> You will have seen the meeting announcement recently sent to the list =
[0].  Nick and I need to get an accurate headcount for those who plan to =
attend in person and remotely.  The registration link can be found at:
> https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/master/interim-2019-01
> We will close registration at 2359UTC on 21 December 2018.
>=20
> spt
>=20
> [0] =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mls/nQ_yb3xRUXTQzh6r3wR_6qEokyw


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From: Nick Sullivan <nick@cloudflare.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 17:04:57 +0000
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Jan 2019 MLS Interim - Bay Area
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A quick update: We have secured a venue.

The interim will be held at Mozilla HQ in Mountain View. It is located at:
331 E. Evelyn Avenue
Mountain View, CA

A big thank you to Mozilla for hosting.
Nick & Sean

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 11:38 PM Nick Sullivan <nick@cloudflare.com> wrote:

> Hello mlswg,
>
> The chairs would like to propose the following time/date for the next MLS
> interim:
> January 14-15, 2019
> SF Bay Area, California, USA
> Host: TBD
>
> This is the week after RWC 2019 (https://rwc.iacr.org/2019/), so we
> should expect some overlap in the set of participants.
>
> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on these dates.
> If this date and location are not suitable and you planned to come, please
> indicate your expected level of participation in the interim in your
> response. There will be a remote participation option.
>
> Sean and Nick
>

--0000000000001cfbbe057cea51db
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>A quick update: We have secured a venue.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>The interim will be held at Mozilla HQ in Mountain View. It is=
 located at:</div><div><div>331 E. Evelyn Avenue</div><div>Mountain View, C=
A</div><div><br></div><div>A big thank you to Mozilla for hosting.</div><di=
v>Nick &amp; Sean<br><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">O=
n Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 11:38 PM Nick Sullivan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nick@cl=
oudflare.com">nick@cloudflare.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hello mlswg,<div><br></div><div>The chairs w=
ould like to propose the following time/date for the next MLS interim:</div=
><div>January 14-15, 2019</div><div>SF Bay Area, California, USA</div><div>=
Host: TBD</div><div><br></div><div>This is the week after RWC 2019 (<a href=
=3D"https://rwc.iacr.org/2019/" target=3D"_blank">https://rwc.iacr.org/2019=
/</a>), so we should expect some overlap in the set of participants.</div><=
div><br></div><div>Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interi=
m on these dates. If this date and location are not suitable and you planne=
d to come, please indicate your expected level of participation in the inte=
rim in your response. There will be a remote participation option.<br></div=
><div><br></div><div>Sean and Nick</div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div></div>

--0000000000001cfbbe057cea51db--


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From: Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com>
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Subject: [MLS] MLS WG JAN 2019 Interim Meeting - WebEx Details
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The WebEx details have been uploaded to the github meeting materials =
repo available @:

=
https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-2019-01/README.m=
d

Please note that the meeting details are different for Monday and =
Tuesday.  If you=E2=80=99re having any problems please email the chairs =
@ mls-chair@ietf.org or look for us the jabber room @ =
mls@jabber.ietf.org.

Cheers,
Nick and Sean=


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Subject: Re: [MLS] Reminder (was Re: MLS WG JAN 2019 Interim Meeting - registration required)
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Registration closes tomorrow so if you are planning to attend please =
fill out the form on the link below.

Note we have 30 people registered so far with 20 planning to attend in =
person.

If you find yourself board over the holidaze feel free to read the =
drafts in preparation for the meeting.  The drafts can be found at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mls/documents/


spt

> On Dec 10, 2018, at 20:33, Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:
>=20
> Please remember to register for the interim meeting.  Note that we =
have 12 registered for in-person.
>=20
> spt
>=20
>> On Dec 4, 2018, at 12:43, Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> You will have seen the meeting announcement recently sent to the list =
[0].  Nick and I need to get an accurate headcount for those who plan to =
attend in person and remotely.  The registration link can be found at:
>> https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/master/interim-2019-01
>> We will close registration at 2359UTC on 21 December 2018.
>>=20
>> spt
>>=20
>> [0] =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mls/nQ_yb3xRUXTQzh6r3wR_6qEokyw
>=20


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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 10:53:25 -0500
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Subject: [MLS] Efficiency and "Ampelmann trees"
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Hey all,

At the last IETF meeting, we had some discussion about the efficiency of
the protocol.  On the one hand, having endpoints ship around the whole tree
and keep it in memory seems like a bad bit of linearity; can't we just have
the server track that stuff, and have the clients download slices of the
tree as needed?  On the other hand, you need to make sure the server
doesn't lie, which requires some complicated hashing.  This email has some
thoughts about how complicated the hashing needs to be.

Recall that in order to do the group operations, an endpoint needs the
following parts of the tree:

- Add: Frontier == Copath of position N+1
- Update: Copath of the endpoint's own leaf
- Remove: Copath of the removed node's leaf

So we need a scheme for computing a commitment to the tree (which can go in
the GroupState/Welcome) such that it's easy to prove a copath.

You could do this with a Merkle tree over the nodes of the ratchet tree,
but it's kind of inelegant.  The commitment would obviously be the root of
the Merkle tree.  It's less clear how best to prove a copath, but it is
possible: The requester knows the indices in the tree of the copath nodes,
so in the worst case, the server could provide log(N) individual proofs for
those nodes (each of size log(N)).

In thinking about this a bit, it seems you could improve on this by
aligning the hash tree structure to the tree structure you're verifying.
Merkle trees assume there are no values at the intermediate nodes of the
tree; let's just hash them in: If an intermediate node has value V and
child hashes L and R, then set the value of the node to:

H(H(L || R) || V)

(instead of H(L || R) in the Merkle tree case). If you do that, then I
think you get copath proofs of size 2 * log(N) instead of log(N)^2.  The
attached figures (assuming they survive remailing) illustrate how this
works.  (I've been calling these "Ampelmann Trees", for their resemblance
to the famous indicators in Berlin [1])

Now, even assuming this scheme works, it isn't a total solution to the
problem.  Given that we have blanks in the tree to avoid double-joins,
we're going to need a way to handle blanks in the proof algorithms.  Pretty
sure it's still possible, but will require another layer of math.
Likewise, it would be nice if an endpoint could keep its view of its own
copath up to date based on Handshake messages alone, which isn't currently
possible (it requires the whole tree).

So there's plenty still to discuss!  Suggestions welcome, either here or at
the interim in a few weeks.

Happy Holidays!

--Richard


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampelm%C3%A4nnchen

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hey all,</div><div><br></div><div>At=
 the last IETF meeting, we had some discussion about the efficiency of the =
protocol.=C2=A0 On the one hand, having endpoints ship around the whole tre=
e and keep it in memory seems like a bad bit of linearity; can&#39;t we jus=
t have the server track that stuff, and have the clients download slices of=
 the tree as needed?=C2=A0 On the other hand, you need to make sure the ser=
ver doesn&#39;t lie, which requires some complicated hashing.=C2=A0 This em=
ail has some thoughts about how complicated the hashing needs to be.</div><=
div><br></div><div>Recall that in order to do the group operations, an endp=
oint needs the following parts of the tree:</div><div><br></div><div>- Add:=
 Frontier =3D=3D Copath of position N+1</div><div>- Update: Copath of the e=
ndpoint&#39;s own leaf</div><div>- Remove: Copath of the removed node&#39;s=
 leaf</div><div><br></div><div>So we need a scheme for computing a commitme=
nt to the tree (which can go in the GroupState/Welcome) such that it&#39;s =
easy to prove a copath.</div><div><br></div><div>You could do this with a M=
erkle tree over the nodes of the ratchet tree, but it&#39;s kind of inelega=
nt.=C2=A0 The commitment would obviously be the root of the Merkle tree.=C2=
=A0 It&#39;s less clear how best to prove a copath, but it is possible: The=
 requester knows the indices in the tree of the copath nodes, so in the wor=
st case, the server could provide log(N) individual proofs for those nodes =
(each of size log(N)).</div><div><br></div><div>In thinking about this a bi=
t, it seems you could improve on this by aligning the hash tree structure t=
o the tree structure you&#39;re verifying.=C2=A0 Merkle trees assume there =
are no values at the intermediate nodes of the tree; let&#39;s just hash th=
em in: If an intermediate node has value V and child hashes L and R, then s=
et the value of the node to:</div><div><br></div><div>H(H(L || R) || V)<br>=
</div><div><br></div><div>(instead of H(L || R) in the Merkle tree case). I=
f you do that, then I think you get copath proofs of size 2 * log(N) instea=
d of log(N)^2.=C2=A0 The attached figures (assuming they survive remailing)=
 illustrate how this works.=C2=A0 (I&#39;ve been calling these &quot;Ampelm=
ann Trees&quot;, for their resemblance to the famous indicators in Berlin [=
1])</div><div><br></div><div>Now, even assuming this scheme works, it isn&#=
39;t a total solution to the problem.=C2=A0 Given that we have blanks in th=
e tree to avoid double-joins, we&#39;re going to need a way to handle blank=
s in the proof algorithms.=C2=A0 Pretty sure it&#39;s still possible, but w=
ill require another layer of math.=C2=A0 Likewise, it would be nice if an e=
ndpoint could keep its view of its own copath up to date based on Handshake=
 messages alone, which isn&#39;t currently possible (it requires the whole =
tree).</div><div><br></div><div>So there&#39;s plenty still to discuss!=C2=
=A0 Suggestions welcome, either here or at the interim in a few weeks.</div=
><div><br></div><div>Happy Holidays!<br></div><div><br></div><div>--Richard=
<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[1] <a href=3D"https://en.wiki=
pedia.org/wiki/Ampelm%C3%A4nnchen">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampelm%C3%=
A4nnchen</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></=
div>

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--000000000000f82a63057dc699b6--


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Subject: Re: [MLS] Efficiency and "Ampelmann trees"
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Hey Richard,

I think this could work the way you intended it. My understanding of =
this is that we use the (second?) preimage resistance of the hashing =
algorithm to make it impossible for the server to forge arbitrary values =
anywhere in the (co)path it provides to clients.=20
I think your assumption is right that the data requested from a server =
is indeed either a direct path or a copath. What both have in common is =
that they start at the leaf level and include one node from each level =
=E2=80=94 all the way to the root.
This means the server just has to provide the sibling of each node as =
proof.=20
The hash values could be computed by the server, as long as the =
commitment is part of HS messages (this could be either implicit in the =
group state, or sent as an explicit value).

For the sake of simplicity, couldn=E2=80=99t we simplify the node hash =
to H(L || R || V) instead of H(H(L || R) || V) ?

For leaf nodes, the values for R and L would probably just be null, =
effectively only the public key of the node would be hashed.

For blank nodes, we can maybe think of a mechanism similar to node =
resolution to compute the values of R and L. If L is blanked, and LL and =
LR are its children, we could substitute L by (LL || LR). This would =
have to be recursive as long as at least one child node is blanked. =
Alternatively, L could be substituted by H(LL || LR), if that provides =
additional security. This might be more in line with the per-level =
hashing we would do if there were no blank nodes.

In the extreme case of a tree that only contains leave nodes and no =
intermediate nodes (and we don=E2=80=99t do the per-level hashing =
mentioned above), the root hash value would be H(H(V_A) || H(V_B) || =
H(V_C) || =E2=80=A6) where V_x are the values of the leaf nodes.

Is that the other layer of math you had in mind?

Happy Holidays!

Raphael

> On 24 Dec 2018, at 16:53, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>=20
> Hey all,
>=20
> At the last IETF meeting, we had some discussion about the efficiency =
of the protocol.  On the one hand, having endpoints ship around the =
whole tree and keep it in memory seems like a bad bit of linearity; =
can't we just have the server track that stuff, and have the clients =
download slices of the tree as needed?  On the other hand, you need to =
make sure the server doesn't lie, which requires some complicated =
hashing.  This email has some thoughts about how complicated the hashing =
needs to be.
>=20
> Recall that in order to do the group operations, an endpoint needs the =
following parts of the tree:
>=20
> - Add: Frontier =3D=3D Copath of position N+1
> - Update: Copath of the endpoint's own leaf
> - Remove: Copath of the removed node's leaf
>=20
> So we need a scheme for computing a commitment to the tree (which can =
go in the GroupState/Welcome) such that it's easy to prove a copath.
>=20
> You could do this with a Merkle tree over the nodes of the ratchet =
tree, but it's kind of inelegant.  The commitment would obviously be the =
root of the Merkle tree.  It's less clear how best to prove a copath, =
but it is possible: The requester knows the indices in the tree of the =
copath nodes, so in the worst case, the server could provide log(N) =
individual proofs for those nodes (each of size log(N)).
>=20
> In thinking about this a bit, it seems you could improve on this by =
aligning the hash tree structure to the tree structure you're verifying. =
 Merkle trees assume there are no values at the intermediate nodes of =
the tree; let's just hash them in: If an intermediate node has value V =
and child hashes L and R, then set the value of the node to:
>=20
> H(H(L || R) || V)
>=20
> (instead of H(L || R) in the Merkle tree case). If you do that, then I =
think you get copath proofs of size 2 * log(N) instead of log(N)^2.  The =
attached figures (assuming they survive remailing) illustrate how this =
works.  (I've been calling these "Ampelmann Trees", for their =
resemblance to the famous indicators in Berlin [1])
>=20
> Now, even assuming this scheme works, it isn't a total solution to the =
problem.  Given that we have blanks in the tree to avoid double-joins, =
we're going to need a way to handle blanks in the proof algorithms.  =
Pretty sure it's still possible, but will require another layer of math. =
 Likewise, it would be nice if an endpoint could keep its view of its =
own copath up to date based on Handshake messages alone, which isn't =
currently possible (it requires the whole tree).
>=20
> So there's plenty still to discuss!  Suggestions welcome, either here =
or at the interim in a few weeks.
>=20
> Happy Holidays!
>=20
> --Richard
>=20
>=20
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampelm%C3%A4nnchen =
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampelm%C3%A4nnchen>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> <Dirpath Proofs.pdf><Hashing =
Structure.pdf><Ampelma=CC=88nnchen!.pdf><Copath : Frontier =
Proofs.pdf>_______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls


--Apple-Mail=_3F79570D-A5C4-407C-B2FB-69B9C0884987
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hey Richard,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>I =
think this could work the way you intended it. My understanding of this =
is that we use the (second?) preimage resistance of the hashing =
algorithm to make it impossible for the server to forge arbitrary values =
anywhere in the (co)path it provides to clients.&nbsp;<div class=3D"">I =
think your assumption is right that the data requested from a server is =
indeed either a direct path or a copath. What both have in common is =
that they start at the leaf level and include one node from each level =
=E2=80=94 all the way to the root.<div class=3D"">This means the server =
just has to provide the sibling of each node as proof.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">The hash values could be computed by the server, as long as =
the commitment is part of HS messages (this could be either implicit in =
the group state, or sent as an explicit value).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For the sake of simplicity, couldn=E2=80=99=
t we simplify the node hash to H(L || R || V) instead of H(H(L || R) || =
V) ?</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>For leaf =
nodes, the values for R and L would probably just be null, effectively =
only the public key of the node would be hashed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For blank nodes, we can maybe think of =
a mechanism similar to node resolution to compute the values of R and L. =
If L is blanked, and LL and LR are its children, we could substitute L =
by (LL || LR). This would have to be recursive as long as at least one =
child node is blanked. Alternatively, L could be substituted by H(LL || =
LR), if that provides additional security. This might be more in line =
with the per-level hashing we would do if there were no blank =
nodes.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In the =
extreme case of a tree that only contains leave nodes and no =
intermediate nodes (and we don=E2=80=99t do the per-level hashing =
mentioned above), the root hash value would be H(H(V_A) || H(V_B) || =
H(V_C) || =E2=80=A6) where V_x are the values of the leaf =
nodes.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div>Is that the other layer =
of math you had in mind?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Happy =
Holidays!</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Raphael</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 24 =
Dec 2018, at 16:53, Richard Barnes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlb@ipv.sx" =
class=3D"">rlb@ipv.sx</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hey =
all,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">At the =
last IETF meeting, we had some discussion about the efficiency of the =
protocol.&nbsp; On the one hand, having endpoints ship around the whole =
tree and keep it in memory seems like a bad bit of linearity; can't we =
just have the server track that stuff, and have the clients download =
slices of the tree as needed?&nbsp; On the other hand, you need to make =
sure the server doesn't lie, which requires some complicated =
hashing.&nbsp; This email has some thoughts about how complicated the =
hashing needs to be.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Recall that in order to do the group operations, an endpoint =
needs the following parts of the tree:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Add: Frontier =3D=3D Copath of =
position N+1</div><div class=3D"">- Update: Copath of the endpoint's own =
leaf</div><div class=3D"">- Remove: Copath of the removed node's =
leaf</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So we =
need a scheme for computing a commitment to the tree (which can go in =
the GroupState/Welcome) such that it's easy to prove a copath.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You could do this with a =
Merkle tree over the nodes of the ratchet tree, but it's kind of =
inelegant.&nbsp; The commitment would obviously be the root of the =
Merkle tree.&nbsp; It's less clear how best to prove a copath, but it is =
possible: The requester knows the indices in the tree of the copath =
nodes, so in the worst case, the server could provide log(N) individual =
proofs for those nodes (each of size log(N)).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In thinking about this a bit, it seems =
you could improve on this by aligning the hash tree structure to the =
tree structure you're verifying.&nbsp; Merkle trees assume there are no =
values at the intermediate nodes of the tree; let's just hash them in: =
If an intermediate node has value V and child hashes L and R, then set =
the value of the node to:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">H(H(L || R) || V)<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">(instead of H(L || R) in the Merkle =
tree case). If you do that, then I think you get copath proofs of size 2 =
* log(N) instead of log(N)^2.&nbsp; The attached figures (assuming they =
survive remailing) illustrate how this works.&nbsp; (I've been calling =
these "Ampelmann Trees", for their resemblance to the famous indicators =
in Berlin [1])</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Now, even assuming this scheme works, it isn't a total =
solution to the problem.&nbsp; Given that we have blanks in the tree to =
avoid double-joins, we're going to need a way to handle blanks in the =
proof algorithms.&nbsp; Pretty sure it's still possible, but will =
require another layer of math.&nbsp; Likewise, it would be nice if an =
endpoint could keep its view of its own copath up to date based on =
Handshake messages alone, which isn't currently possible (it requires =
the whole tree).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">So there's plenty still to discuss!&nbsp; Suggestions =
welcome, either here or at the interim in a few weeks.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Happy Holidays!<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">--Richard<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">[1] =
<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampelm%C3%A4nnchen" =
class=3D"">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampelm%C3%A4nnchen</a><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div>
<span id=3D"cid:f_jq2i3t572">&lt;Dirpath Proofs.pdf&gt;</span><span =
id=3D"cid:f_jq2i3t5q3">&lt;Hashing Structure.pdf&gt;</span><span =
id=3D"cid:f_jq2i3t400">&lt;Ampelma=CC=88nnchen!.pdf&gt;</span><span =
id=3D"cid:f_jq2i3t4w1">&lt;Copath : Frontier =
Proofs.pdf&gt;</span>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">MLS mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" =
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