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Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:55:46 -0700
From: Tom Marshall <tmarshall@real.com>
To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>
Cc: philippe.gentric@philips.com, Thomas Zeng <zeng@packetvideo.com>,
        Aaron Colwell <acolwell@real.com>,
        "'Magnus Westerlund'" <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>,
        IETF MMUSIC WG <mmusic@ietf.org>, mmusic-admin@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-00.txt questions
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> >>Its an issue of - why are you inventing yet another thing when we=20
> >>already have something on the table?
> >
> >
> >I can think of two reasons:
> >
> >1. The technique is already in use, and has been proven successful.  We
> >are
> >   trying to document that technique.
>=20
> IETF proposed standards are not about documenting existing technique.=20
> They are about proposing the right solution for all to implement.

Very well, perhaps I did not choose the proper wording.  My apologies.  I
have been reluctant to refer to symmetric rtp as a protocol because it's
extremely simple.  I think of it as a technique rather than a protocol.

I believe that it is a simple, elegant and comprehensive solution to the NAT
traversal problem for RTSP/RTP.  I would stop short of calling it "the"
right solution because real world scenarios inevitably prevent such a
definition.

> >2. It has advantages over STUN.  It is more successful than
> >nonmultiplexed
> >   STUN (eg. with 5-tuple NATs) and it does not require any protocol
> >   multiplexing to achieve maximum usefulness (it's a cleaner solution).
>=20
> The only argument you are making here is that multiplexing is ugly. To=20
> that I agree. But, if you want these fake RTP packets to not affect=20
> RTCP, you are already basically saying that you are multiplexing a=20
> non-RTP protocol on the RTP port. So I dont see the difference really.

First, let me state that my argument in the quoted message was not
comprehensive.  There are many arguments to be made for symmetric rtp and
multiplexing is only one.  Just off the top of my head, another advantage
that symmetric rtp holds over stun is that the destination=3D parameter
remains free for application use.

> >I can see where STUN may have uses for protocols other than RTP, and
> >that is
> >fine.  But to imply that STUN is the one grand solution and we shouldn't
> >pursue symmetric rtp is, in my opinion, a mistake.
> >
>=20
> Well, as is pointed out in my ICE proposal:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sipping-ice-00.txt
>=20
> The general approach solves a ton more cases than symmetric RTP alone=20
> will. If you ever think that you will want RTSP in peer-to-peer cases,=20
> symmetric RTP isnt going to cut it.

I somehow doubt your claim.  I can think of at least one case where
symmetric rtp will work where stun will not (yes, even multiplexed stun).=
=20
In any case, "a ton" is a rather subjective number.

Are you advocating that symmetric rtp be abandoned entirely and that we
should all align behind stun as the single all-encompassing solution?  If
you are, I have a serious issue with that stance.  I can see why you might
have that opinion given your co-authorship with rfc3489, but I strongly
encourage you to evaluate each solution on its technical merits.  The
technique (or protocol, if yop prefer) behind symmetric rtp has been proven
to be quite effective, both in theory and in practice.

--=20
Mountain Dew and doughnuts...  because breakfast is the most important meal
of the day.

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Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 04:04:15 -0400
From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>
Organization: dynamicsoft
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CC: philippe.gentric@philips.com, Thomas Zeng <zeng@packetvideo.com>,
        Aaron Colwell <acolwell@real.com>,
        "'Magnus Westerlund'" <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>,
        IETF MMUSIC WG <mmusic@ietf.org>, mmusic-admin@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-00.txt questions
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Tom Marshall wrote:

>>>2. It has advantages over STUN.  It is more successful than
>>>nonmultiplexed
>>>  STUN (eg. with 5-tuple NATs) and it does not require any protocol
>>>  multiplexing to achieve maximum usefulness (it's a cleaner
> 
> solution).
> 
>>The only argument you are making here is that multiplexing is ugly. To
> 
> 
>>that I agree. But, if you want these fake RTP packets to not affect 
>>RTCP, you are already basically saying that you are multiplexing a 
>>non-RTP protocol on the RTP port. So I dont see the difference really.
> 
> 
> First, let me state that my argument in the quoted message was not
> comprehensive.  There are many arguments to be made for symmetric rtp
> and
> multiplexing is only one.  Just off the top of my head, another
> advantage
> that symmetric rtp holds over stun is that the destination= parameter
> remains free for application use.

I'm not sure what this means. I agree that with symmetric RTP you don't 
specify an IP address to receive RTP, and with peer-to-peer stun you 
will, but I don't see this as a +/- in either direction.

> 
> 
>>>I can see where STUN may have uses for protocols other than RTP, and
>>>that is
>>>fine.  But to imply that STUN is the one grand solution and we
> 
> shouldn't
> 
>>>pursue symmetric rtp is, in my opinion, a mistake.
>>>
>>
>>Well, as is pointed out in my ICE proposal:
>>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sipping-ice-00.txt
>>
>>The general approach solves a ton more cases than symmetric RTP alone 
>>will. If you ever think that you will want RTSP in peer-to-peer cases,
> 
> 
>>symmetric RTP isnt going to cut it.
> 
> 
> I somehow doubt your claim.  I can think of at least one case where
> symmetric rtp will work where stun will not (yes, even multiplexed
> stun). 

Please elaborate.

> In any case, "a ton" is a rather subjective number.

Well, here are a few cases I know of where symmetric RTP will not work:

1. client and server both behind different nats, both are port restricted

2. client and server are both behind different nats, both are symmetric nat

3. client is in a public IP network, server is behind a nat

4. client and server are both in private networks, but there is a nat 
between the server and the client (multi-natted enterprise, for example)


None of these scenarios come up in the normal RTSP case where the server 
is on a public network. They arise in more peer-to-peer applications of 
RTSP, more common when used in conjunction with sip I suspect.

> 
> Are you advocating that symmetric rtp be abandoned entirely and that we
> should all align behind stun as the single all-encompassing solution?

My main interest is in trying to unify the nat traversal strategies for 
SIP and RTSP. There, it appears that ICE is the best way forward, and 
one component of that is the usage of peer-to-peer stun to verify 
connectivity. In the SIP case, there is just no need for symmetric RTP, 
since its function is encompassed within the ICE algorithm. The set of 
nat traversal cases for ICE is a superset of those covered by symmetric 
RTP. I am fairly sure I can prove that, but I would love to hear about 
this case you say works for symmetric RTP but not peer-to-peer STUN 
within an ICE context.

I have also recently discovered that the ICE methodology solves a very 
hard DoS attack which has been discussed in this context. The general 
problem is that a client connects to a server, and provides the server 
with a fake IP address/port to which media should be sent. This fake 
address/port is the address of the target. In the case of the symmetric 
RTP approach, this is done by having the client send RTP packets to the 
server using a spoofed source address.

Generally speaking, the way to prevent DoS attacks when amplification is 
a natural property of the protocol (as it is here), is to make sure you 
only send stuff to places that want it. With ICE, the server would 
immediately send a STUN request to the client to verify connectivity. 
The server would not actually send media unless a STUN response was 
received. Effectively, the connectivity check performed by stun has a 
side effect of verifying that the recipient WANTS the media. So, if the 
recipient of the STUN request is the target of a DoS attack, they 
wouldn't send a STUN response at all and therefore, no media is ever 
sent to them.

You could use RTCP for a similar kind of function, but its timescales 
are too large to be really effective at preventign this attack, IMHO.


> If
> you are, I have a serious issue with that stance.  I can see why you
> might
> have that opinion given your co-authorship with rfc3489, but I strongly
> encourage you to evaluate each solution on its technical merits. 

These kinds of personal accusations about do nothing to progress a 
discussion, Tom. Please, can we keep the discussion civil? I have done 
nothing but argue for things based on technical merits. I have been 
working on the problems of firewall and nat traversal for multimedia for 
many years, and my conclusions on the applicability of symmetric RTP vs. 
ICE/p2p stun are based on real issues (like the cases above) that I have 
seen arise.


  The
> technique (or protocol, if yop prefer) behind symmetric rtp has been
> proven
> to be quite effective, both in theory and in practice.

No doubt. It was added to the co-media spec at the urging of myself and 
others quite some time ago. I agree it works, and it works very well in 
cases where one side is always on a network reachable by the other. But, 
that case is not all cases, and the double nat cases are not handled by 
symmetric RTP.

-Jonathan R.

-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                600 Lanidex Plaza
Chief Scientist                             Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711
dynamicsoft
jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com                     FAX:   (973) 952-5050
http://www.jdrosen.net                      PHONE: (973) 952-5000
http://www.dynamicsoft.com

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To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>
From: Rajesh Kumar <rkumar@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Re: Multiple 'm' lines with the same port number
Cc: Flemming Andreasen <fandreas@cisco.com>, Stephen Casner <casner@acm.org>,
        Colin Perkins <csp@isi.edu>, mmusic@ietf.org, mmostafa@cisco.com,
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At 07:10 PM 4/28/2003 -0400, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
>Using two m lines to represent alternate encodings for a stream is not 
>consistent with the offer/answer model, IMHO. RFC 3264 has mechanisms for 
>transitioning from audio to fax, for example, but these require a 
>re-invite to do:
>
>8.3.3 Changing Media Types
>
>    The media type (audio, video, etc.) for a stream MAY be changed.  It
>    is RECOMMENDED that the media type be changed (as opposed to adding a
>    new stream), when the same logical data is being conveyed, but just
>    in a different media format.  This is particularly useful for
>    changing between voiceband fax and fax in a single stream, which are
>    both separate media types.  To do this, the offerer creates a new
>    media description, with a new media type, in place of the description
>    in the previous SDP which is to be changed.

How about the use of capability sets as described in RFC 3407? The 
alternate encodings which may be triggered on specific stimuli can be 
expressed as latent capabilities, as in the examples inRFC 3407.

Perhaps, the offer-answer model, RFC 3264, needs to be expanded to include 
the use of latent capabilities.

Rajesh



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Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 07:43:18 -0700
From: Tom Marshall <tmarshall@real.com>
To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>
Cc: philippe.gentric@philips.com, Thomas Zeng <zeng@packetvideo.com>,
        Aaron Colwell <acolwell@real.com>,
        "'Magnus Westerlund'" <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>,
        IETF MMUSIC WG <mmusic@ietf.org>, mmusic-admin@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-00.txt questions
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> >>that I agree. But, if you want these fake RTP packets to not affect=20
> >>RTCP, you are already basically saying that you are multiplexing a=20
> >>non-RTP protocol on the RTP port. So I dont see the difference really.
> >
> >
> >First, let me state that my argument in the quoted message was not
> >comprehensive.  There are many arguments to be made for symmetric rtp
> >and
> >multiplexing is only one.  Just off the top of my head, another
> >advantage
> >that symmetric rtp holds over stun is that the destination=3D parameter
> >remains free for application use.
>=20
> I'm not sure what this means. I agree that with symmetric RTP you don't=
=20
> specify an IP address to receive RTP, and with peer-to-peer stun you=20
> will, but I don't see this as a +/- in either direction.

I see it as an advantage for symmetric rtp.  The original RTSP specification
was written with no NAT traversal strategies in mind, AFAIK.  The
destination parameter was meant for other purposes.  I don't know of any
practical application off the top of my head, but I must assume that at
least one exists.  Any such application is incompatible with STUN.

> >>>I can see where STUN may have uses for protocols other than RTP, and
> >>>that is
> >>>fine.  But to imply that STUN is the one grand solution and we
> >
> >shouldn't
> >
> >>>pursue symmetric rtp is, in my opinion, a mistake.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Well, as is pointed out in my ICE proposal:
> >>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sipping-ice-00.txt
> >>
> >>The general approach solves a ton more cases than symmetric RTP alone=
=20
> >>will. If you ever think that you will want RTSP in peer-to-peer cases,
> >
> >
> >>symmetric RTP isnt going to cut it.
> >
> >
> >I somehow doubt your claim.  I can think of at least one case where
> >symmetric rtp will work where stun will not (yes, even multiplexed
> >stun).=20
>=20
> Please elaborate.

Aside from the case pointed out above regarding the availability of the
destination parameter, there is also the case where a network administrator
prohibits the destination parameter from passing through the firewall.
Given the refusal of many administrators to allow _any_ UDP at all, I think
this case will have at least some practical application.

> >In any case, "a ton" is a rather subjective number.
>=20
> Well, here are a few cases I know of where symmetric RTP will not work:
>=20
> 1. client and server both behind different nats, both are port restricted

Yes, nonmultiplexed stun works nicely here.

> 2. client and server are both behind different nats, both are symmetric n=
at

I don't see how any solution could be successful if the symmetric nat is of
the 5-tuple kind.

> 3. client is in a public IP network, server is behind a nat

I am assuming that in this case, the server is the STUN client and the
application is some sort of peer-to-peer scenario (because I find it
unlikely that a "traditional" RTSP server would have STUN client code).

The problem for RTP is that it flows from server to client.  The server's
NAT should have no problem sending RTP but it will appear to originate from
a different port than specified in the SETUP response.  This may or may not
be a problem, depending on how strict the client's receive code is written.=
=20
There are enough "traditional" cases where RTP packets come from a different
source than expected that our code does not check the transport packet
source address.

RTCP will be a bigger problem because the server will not receive the
client's packets.  But since we are assuming that the server is a STUN
client in this scenario, let's also assume that the client is a symmetric
rtp client.  I think both would work equally well here.

> 4. client and server are both in private networks, but there is a nat=20
> between the server and the client (multi-natted enterprise, for example)

I don't think this is really a separate case.  It's just a smaller case of
a nat on a network.

> >Are you advocating that symmetric rtp be abandoned entirely and that we
> >should all align behind stun as the single all-encompassing solution?
>=20
> My main interest is in trying to unify the nat traversal strategies for=
=20
> SIP and RTSP.

I am sorry, but I don't see why this is a requirement.  SIP and RTSP serve
different purposes for different audiences.  Why do you want to force them
to use the same NAT strategy?

> I have also recently discovered that the ICE methodology solves a very=20
> hard DoS attack which has been discussed in this context. The general=20
> problem is that a client connects to a server, and provides the server=20
> with a fake IP address/port to which media should be sent. This fake=20
> address/port is the address of the target. In the case of the symmetric=
=20
> RTP approach, this is done by having the client send RTP packets to the=
=20
> server using a spoofed source address.

This DoS is exactly one of the reasons why I like symmetric rtp.  There is
no destination parameter.  But you do bring up a good point: a responsible
symmetric rtp application should ignore packets that have a different source
address from the RTSP connection.

I have yet to read the ICE proposal, so I can't comment much further.  I
will read it today.

> >If
> >you are, I have a serious issue with that stance.  I can see why you
> >might
> >have that opinion given your co-authorship with rfc3489, but I strongly
> >encourage you to evaluate each solution on its technical merits.=20
>=20
> These kinds of personal accusations about do nothing to progress a=20
> discussion, Tom. Please, can we keep the discussion civil? I have done=20
> nothing but argue for things based on technical merits. I have been=20
> working on the problems of firewall and nat traversal for multimedia for=
=20
> many years, and my conclusions on the applicability of symmetric RTP vs.=
=20
> ICE/p2p stun are based on real issues (like the cases above) that I have=
=20
> seen arise.

Sorry.  But it seems that you take every opportunity to cut down everything
but STUN.  You were the one who "ranted" that ALGs are problematic on 2 Apr=
=2E=20
This is certainly true (what real-world solution is ever bug-free?) but they
are a necessary part of NAT.  STUN is certainly a clever solution for some
use cases but it is not an all-encompassing solution.  It has its place, and
so does symmetric rtp, and so do ALGs.  NAT is a complicated beast with many
different implementations, and so our traversal mechanisms must be flexible=
=2E=20
Any one protocol or technique can never work in all scenarios.

Again, are you advocating that symmetric rtp be abandoned entirely and that
we should all align behind STUN as the single all-encompassing solution?  If
not, then this discussion is probably at a good stopping point.  My interest
here was answering the question regarding why there are multiple NAT
traversal strategies, and I think that question has been answered.

> the double nat cases are not handled by symmetric RTP.

My initial reaction is that they are.  Why would symmetric rtp fail with a
double nat?

--=20
Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers.
        -- Leonard Brandwein

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Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] WG Last Call on draft-rajeshkumar-mmusic-gpmd-02.txt
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In some off-line discussions, it was suggested, that we add the following
as a new paragraph #3 in Section 3 (which defines the "vbd" gpmd
parameter):

When use of a "vbd" media format has been negotiated, voice-band data
SHOULD be transported using either a "vbd" media format or another
negotiated media format suitable for transporting the voice-band data in
question. Examples of such media formats include RFC 2833 (with support
for relevant data modem and fax tones), T.38 fax relay, and V.150 modem
relay. Non-examples include G.723, G729, and PCMU without an
accompanying "vbd" gpmd parameter. Note that selection of specific
suitable media formats is typically done on the basis of stimuli, such
as the detection of an answer tone, a fax preamble and a modem CM
signal, which may occur at different times.


Please let me know if you disagree with this.

-- Flemming


Joerg Ott wrote:

> This is to issue WGLC on draft-rajeshkumar-mmusic-gpmd-02.txt
>
>    "SDP attribute for Qualifying Media Formats with Generic Parameters"
>
> for Proposed Standard.  The WGLC is to expire on April, 30th, 2003.
>
> Please direct any technical comments to the list and the authors,
> and please send purely editorial remarks only to the authors.
>
> Thanks,
> Joerg
>
> _______________________________________________
> mmusic mailing list
> mmusic@ietf.org
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Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:

>
> The idea is that the RTSP server implements STUN, yes. Muxing the RTP 
> and STUN is how you deal with symmetric RTP. How is that different 
> from having the RTSP server implement the new "fake RTP", and muxing 
> it with regular RTP?

The goal when I started to write down a specification for Symmetric RTP was not to use fake RTP in any sense. It is still RTP while there is a functionality listing in on the media port. This even don't need multiplexing as all packets can pass the listing function and then be forwarded if needed. In a streaming server there seem to be very little need to forward the RTP packet from the listing function. However other application scenarios may exist where the server really want to receive the media packets. 

One problem that the STUN solution might suffer from is that RTSP ALGs go in and change the destination header. This will not create a problem as long as it opens the necessary bind for the changed address. 

From a design philosophical point the STUN solution has its bad behavior in the multiplexing point while symmetric RTP has its in the layering. 
 

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research ERA/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se



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From: Rod.Walsh@nokia.com
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Hello

In San Francisco we loudly hummed to work on Internet Media Guides in MMUSIC.

(As a reminder, the IETF56 MMUSIC minutes and Internet Media Guide (IMG) presentations are at http://www.dmn.tzi.org/ietf/mmusic/ - see cut text below too)

I really need to find out about YOUR experience in media announcements and descriptor delivery. SDP and SAP love and hate knowledge as well as moving the metadata point-to-point (FTP, HTTP are pretty well used) and new work (SIP, SDPng, etc.) are very important so we can put together a picture of what a really needed by our IP world. Ultimately, our purpose is to be able to specify really useful protocols, etc. as IDs -> RFCs. But first we have a basic goal to compile:
* requirements for Delivery of Media Metadata for Multicast Media
* study how a framework of the existing IETF standards and work-in-progress can be used

This way we can spot the gaps and set some sort of priority to more-than-just-our needs.

So tell us a story, set some requirements, praise and condemn what we already have. Just do it now!


My own mini-epic goes:
I am working on a service announcement application for unidirectional (aka. broadcast) service/media/content IP delivery. The sorts of media involved are streaming audio and video, and files - both huge and tiny. So, with a few Nokia colleagues, I set to work on SDP and SAP a couple of years ago and after a lot of SDP extensions and SAP heart-ache ended up with a mix of proprietary XML + extended SDP over SAP and then over a couple of proprietary multicast file delivery protocols instead.

Fortunately, most of the pain has faded with time, but we wished that our simple needs were already in IETF protocols from the beginning. Fixes for some of the issues of multicast and unidirectional "media announcement" transport and an elementary specification on framing media metadata are just as essential now. So we would very much like to gent involved with a next generation of service/session announcement and description based on MMUSIC's impressive background and specifications for this.

In the process of this work we've already come up with a few requirements and an idea of the sort of tasks / specifications which we felt were needed. If you have a moment, check out the IDs on IMG which are a start at sharing this in MMUSIC (also linked from the IMG presentation @ http://www.dmn.tzi.org/ietf/mmusic/). There's also some earlier emails threads on this reflector based on the -pguide- IDs (precursor to IMG).


Meanwhile, please email your needs and experiences to the reflector so we have much wider material and contributors, to make the work even more worthwhile.

Thanks in advance,
Rod Walsh.




==========

To make life a little easier I cut and pasted some text on IMGs from IETF-56 (http://www.dmn.tzi.org/ietf/mmusic/) as a reminder...

----------

Multiparty Multimedia Session Control (MMUSIC) Working Group Minutes

Reported by Colin Perkins

    The MMUSIC working group met once at the 56th IETF meeting in San
    Francisco. The group discussed connection oriented media, various
    SDP extensions, Offer/Answer examples, SDPng, Internet Media Guides,
    and RTSP.

Introduction and Status Update

    Joerg Ott began the meeting with an introduction and status update.
...
    The working group has completed its charter, and a draft for a revised
    charter was sent to the mailing list prior to the meeting. This draft
    is under discussion between the chairs and area director, and comments
    are solicited from the group. It is expected that the revision will
    include work on SDP, SDPng, RTSP and Internet Media Guides. Conference
    Control has been ruled out of scope at this time.
...
Internet Media Guides

    Rod Walsh outlined Internet Media Guides (IMGs), a potential new work
    item for the group. An Internet Media Guide (IMG) is a collection of
    multimedia session descriptions expressed using SDP, SDPng or some
    similar session description format. It is used to describe a collection
    of multimedia sessions (e.g.  television programme schedules).  The IMG
    must be delivered to a potentially large audience, who use it to join a
    subset of the sessions described, and who may need to be notified of
    changes to the IMG.

    This problem lends itself to solution by (extensions of) some existing
    mechanisms: SAP and SDP/SDPng. MMUSIC therefore seems the natural home
    for the work. Other groups (e.g. DVB-IPI, TV Anytime, and the IP datacast
    forum) have identified similar needs, but do not have the experience to
    solve the problem.

    The chairs presented some initial charter text discussing the problem
    (subject to modification/approval from the area directors) and asked
    if the working group considered this an appropriate work item? Strong
    support was received.
...

----------
Draft text for charter:

An Internet Media Guide (IMG) is a set of multimedia session descriptions expressed using SDP, SDPng or some similar session description format. It is used to describe a collection of multimedia sessions (e.g. television programme schedules). The IMG must be delivered to a potentially large audience, who use it to join a subset of the sessions described, and who may need to be notified of changes to the IMG. 

MMUSIC will investigate work on delivery mechanisms for IMGs, generalizing our work on session announcement and discovery protocols (SAP, RTSP, SIP). We will investigate and document requirements for IMG delivery mechanisms, and identify the requirements that these delivery mechanisms impose on the session description formats used by the IMG. We will then work to produce a framework document outlining the use of (existing) protocols to create an IMG delivery infrastructure. After successful completion of these initial milestones for IMG delivery, the MMUSIC charter will be updated to reflect the actual steps for IMG delivery specifications. 

----------

Cheers,
Rod Walsh.

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Hi

To help in making the IMG Framework widely applicable, I would be grateful if anyone has additions to the following lists of IETF related specification which could fulfil some of the requirements of the IMG system. The purpose of this is to identify which requirements can already be fulfilled (well or badly) and which are still unsolved, which makes it possible to fix the scope of any needed additional work.

---

Relevant RFCs include:

* Descriptors
SDP: 		    www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2327.txt
SDP with IPv6:  www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3266.txt

* Transport
SAPv2:          www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2974.txt
SIP:            www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3261.txt
SIP-notify:     www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3265.txt
HTTP:           www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt
ALC:	          www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3450.txt

* General
Multicast Apps: www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3170.txt
RMT criteria:   www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2357.txt

---

Current relevant IETF WG IDs include:
(Using Watersprings links in case anyone wants to refer back after and update or expiry)

* Descriptors
SDPng: www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-sdpng-06.txt) (the sections on use in the unidirectional/multicast cases (e.g. with SAP) have not yet been completed)

---
Current individual IDs to feed IMG include:

1. IMG Framework and Use cases
  www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-nomura-mmusic-img-requirements-00.txt
    draft-nomura-mmusic-img-requirements-00 (Nomura, Schulzrinne, Feb 2003)
  www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-stallard-mmusic-dvb-thoughts-on-sds-00.txt
    draft-stallard-mmusic-dvb-thoughts-on-sds-00 (Stallard, Paila, Feb 2003)
  www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-nomura-mmusic-img-framework-00.txt
    draft-nomura-mmusic-img-framework-00 (Nomura, Schulzrinne, Feb 2003)
2. IMG Metadata (data model + descriptors)
  www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-luoma-mmusic-img-metadata-00.txt
    draft-luoma-mmusic-img-metadata-00 (Luoma, Feb 2003)
3. p-t-m transport (MUPPET)
  www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-luoma-mmusic-img-muppet-01.txt
    draft-luoma-mmusic-img-muppet-01 (Luoma, March 2003)
4. p-t-p transport & control
    no IDs yet

---

Thanks in advance for any idea and links.

Cheers,
Rod Walsh.

  =======================================
    Rod Walsh
    Nokia Research Center
    Tampere, Finland
    +358 50 483 5632
    rod.walsh@nokia.com
  =======================================
 
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Hi,

I think we are having a good discussion. However to come to some 
conclusion we should try to compare the pro and cons of STUN/ICE and 
Symmetric RTP. To do this I think people would need to understand a bit 
better how STUN/ICE would work with RTSP. Therefore I have created the 
following proposal:

1. The client retrieves the SDP from the ICE enabled server. This SDP 
contains indication that the server supports ICE and gives the 
address/ports for each media and its necessary UDP streams. This may 
require a SDP extension or possibly the c= and port numbers can be used. 
This will however require the server to send media streams from well 
known ports. Many sessions will go over the same ports.

2. The client analysis the SDP and determines the number of local UDP 
ports it will need. For each port it also installs a STUN server with 
authentication requirement using a authentication tag. From these ports 
the client then tries to connect to the server's announced ports for 
respective media flow. If successful the NAT binding nearest the server 
is learned. Also other addressed can be collected, like public STUN 
addresses and TURN address.

3. Client creates a SETUP request where he includes a number of 
transport header specifications. The client may offer more than one 
normal transport configuration, but for each such it will need to create 
multiple copies. Each copy contains the different possible destination 
addresses that it has learned in falling priority order. The client also 
includes in the transport specification the ICE indicator carrying the 
authentication tag necessary to use the clients STUN servers.

4. The server receives the SETUP request and selects which transport 
specification configuration it would like to accept, i.e. all 
specifications that are the same except for destination address/port. 
For all specifications in the configuration the server tries to STUN 
these addresses/clients. Depending on the answers:
  A. The server successful connects to the clients STUN server: The 
server selects the specification with highest priority that yields a 
successful response and include that address/port in the SETUP 
response's transport headers destination field. The media is ready to be 
played.
  B. The server fails to reach the client. It uses a new error coded to 
inform the client of this. At the same time it includes a updated SDP 
which contains all addresses that it is reachable on. The server might 
have learned some new since the initial SDP. The client when receiving 
this tries again by going to point 2 and repeat the whole. If it fails 
multiple times the server and client lacks connectivity.

As seen above the addition of ICE to RTSP will require the following 
standardization work:
- Possible SDP extensions to inform client that it is ICE capable.
- A Transport header parameter for the authentication tag.
- A new RTSP error code and specification on body (SDP) return.

New protocol mechanisms that will be required to implement:
Server:
    - Full STUN server
    - limited STUN client
    - HMAC for STUN authentication
    - SDP extensions MID + ICE necessities
    - SDP generation on the fly of more parameters.
    - RTSP error code and ICE extension

Client:
    - Limited STUN server
    - Limited STUN client
    - HMAC
    - SDP extensions MID + ICE necessities
    - RTSP error code and ICE extension

Properties:
- Solve NAT connectivity discovery for basically all cases as long as a 
TCP connection between them can be established in the first hand. This 
include Servers behind NATs (A proxy (DNS ALG) between address domains 
will be required to get TCP through).
- Prevents DOS attack possibilities as receiving client requires to do 
STUN responses on its media reception ports.
- Will increase the setup delay with at least the time it takes the 
server to perform its STUN requests.
- Forces servers to use a few well known media ports.
- Depends on being able to do a demultiplexing between UDP packet 
contents first byte to determine if packet is media or STUN message.

Please consider this proposal. Feedback about shortcomings, errors, and 
possible improvements are welcome.

Best Regards

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research ERA/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se


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Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 17:38:44 +0200 (MEST)
Message-Id: <20030502.173844.04711828.Hitoshi.Asaeda@sophia.inria.fr>
To: Rod.Walsh@nokia.com
Cc: mmusic@ietf.org, nom@flab.fujitsu.co.jp, hgs@cs.columbia.edu,
        juha-pekka.luoma@nokia.com, pstallard@tandbergtv.com,
        toni.paila@nokia.com, jo@informatik.uni-bremen.de
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Experiences with Media Discovery (for IMG)
From: Hitoshi Asaeda <Hitoshi.Asaeda@sophia.inria.fr>
In-Reply-To: <2BF0AD29BC31FE46B78877321144043101B9E335@trebe003.europe.nokia.com>
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Hi Rod.

> I really need to find out about YOUR experience in media
> announcements and descriptor delivery. SDP and SAP love and hate
> knowledge as well as moving the metadata point-to-point (FTP, HTTP
> are pretty well used) and new work (SIP, SDPng, etc.) are very
> important so we can put together a picture of what a really needed
> by our IP world. Ultimately, our purpose is to be able to specify
> really useful protocols, etc. as IDs -> RFCs. But first we have a
> basic goal to compile:

I've put a draft version of my paper related to this discussion before
the last IETF.
Our new "channel announcement mechamism" is called "Channel Reflector".
The purpose of this proposal is to provide a feasible channel
announcement mechanism for SSM environment without using SAP
advertisement. By using Channel Reflector, we can eliminate source
discovery procedure from multicast service model.
Some parts of the idea can be overwrapped to IMG, therefore we may be
able to collaborate.

If you are interested in, you'd be able to get it from;
<http://www.inria.fr/rrrt/rr-4762.html>.

Any comment would be appreciate.

Thanks.
--
Hitoshi Asaeda
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From: Thomas Zeng <zeng@PacketVideo.COM>
To: "'Magnus Westerlund'" <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>,
        Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>
Cc: IETF MMUSIC WG <mmusic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [MMUSIC] draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-00.txt questions
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 09:33:11 -0700 
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Magnus:

If true RTP packets are used as binding packets, as described in your email,
both Client and Server will take on the added burden of generating RTCP RRs
and SRs for them. Particularly, current RTSP client implementations only
generates RR, but in future, they would have to start sending SRs ! 

I like using a STUN like UDP packets as binding packets, and having RTSP
server distinguishing the two. 

One proposal I had last week was to use a simple UDP of 8 bytes as binding
packets, which is smaller than RTP/RTCP header (12 bytes), hence trivialize
the demuxing problem that people seem to be very afraid of.

Thanks,
- thomas

-----Original Message-----
From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se]
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 4:14 AM
To: Jonathan Rosenberg
Cc: IETF MMUSIC WG
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat-00.txt questions




Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:

>
> The idea is that the RTSP server implements STUN, yes. Muxing the RTP 
> and STUN is how you deal with symmetric RTP. How is that different 
> from having the RTSP server implement the new "fake RTP", and muxing 
> it with regular RTP?

The goal when I started to write down a specification for Symmetric RTP was
not to use fake RTP in any sense. It is still RTP while there is a
functionality listing in on the media port. This even don't need
multiplexing as all packets can pass the listing function and then be
forwarded if needed. In a streaming server there seem to be very little need
to forward the RTP packet from the listing function. However other
application scenarios may exist where the server really want to receive the
media packets. 

One problem that the STUN solution might suffer from is that RTSP ALGs go in
and change the destination header. This will not create a problem as long as
it opens the necessary bind for the changed address. 

From a design philosophical point the STUN solution has its bad behavior in
the multiplexing point while symmetric RTP has its in the layering. 
 

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research ERA/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se



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From: Kreuter Ruediger <ruediger.kreuter@siemens.com>
To: "'Flemming Andreasen'" <fandreas@cisco.com>
Cc: mmusic@ietf.org, Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>, rkumar@cisco.com,
        Joerg Ott <jo@tzi.uni-bremen.de>
Subject: AW: [MMUSIC] WG Last Call on draft-rajeshkumar-mmusic-gpmd-02.txt
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:15:23 +0200 
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> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Flemming Andreasen [mailto:fandreas@cisco.com]
> Gesendet: Freitag, 2. Mai 2003 04:01
> An: Joerg Ott
> Cc: mmusic@ietf.org; Colin Perkins; rkumar@cisco.com
> Betreff: Re: [MMUSIC] WG Last Call on
> draft-rajeshkumar-mmusic-gpmd-02.txt
> 
> 
> In some off-line discussions, it was suggested, that we add 
> the following
> as a new paragraph #3 in Section 3 (which defines the "vbd" gpmd
> parameter):
> 
> When use of a "vbd" media format has been negotiated, voice-band data
> SHOULD be transported using either a "vbd" media format or another
> negotiated media format suitable for transporting the 
> voice-band data in
> question. Examples of such media formats include RFC 2833 
> (with support
> for relevant data modem and fax tones),

Up to now my understanding of RFC2833 was, that it can be used
to relay the connection setup negotiation tones between fax/modem 
terminals, but not the fax/modem payload. Am I wrong with this ?


> T.38 fax relay, and 
> V.150 modem
> relay. Non-examples include G.723, G729, and PCMU without an
> accompanying "vbd" gpmd parameter. Note that selection of specific
> suitable media formats is typically done on the basis of stimuli, such
> as the detection of an answer tone, a fax preamble and a modem CM
> signal, which may occur at different times.
> 
> 
> Please let me know if you disagree with this.
> 
> -- Flemming
> 
> 

I agree with this additional paragraph in general.


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From: Kreuter Ruediger <ruediger.kreuter@siemens.com>
To: "'Flemming Andreasen'" <fandreas@cisco.com>
Cc: "'Jonathan Rosenberg'" <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>,
        Stephen Casner
	 <casner@acm.org>, Rajesh Kumar <rkumar@cisco.com>,
        Colin Perkins
	 <csp@isi.edu>, mmusic@ietf.org, mmostafa@cisco.com,
        hisham@cisco.com, mgarakan@cisco.com, paulej@cisco.com
Subject: AW: [MMUSIC] Re: Multiple 'm' lines with the same port number
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:54:28 +0200 
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> 
> Kreuter Ruediger wrote:
> 
> > Sending a reinvite for a switchover from voice
> > to voiceband data (incl. fax) is applicable.
> > But Rajesh's example below is text/t140, that
> > is, we are "talking" about TTY/TDD. This is
> > completely different because the transmission
> > of TTY characters and voice can be mixed in
> > any way on a TDM line, and therefore must be
> > transferable in a VoIP connection too.
> > That is, it can be that during a connection
> > a sender types some characters on his TTY,
> > then he speeks some sentences, then he types
> > some characters ...
> > You don't really want to send re-invites
> > every couple of sentences, do you ?
> > The only practicable way is to mix text/t140
> > and audio/G7xx the same way as audio/RFC2833
> > and audio/G7xx.
> 
> Right - as long as both the transport and the underlying 
> "type" of media
> (not to be confused with MIME type which I think ends up 
> being a bit too
> restrictive) is the same, this should be just fine. For 
> example, let's say
> we defined a T.38 RTP payload format, but we were still using 
> the existing
> "image/t38" MIME type, then it should be perfectly fine to 
> switch between
> T.38 RTP packets and say PCMU. However, mixing different 
> types of media,
> such as audio and video, or different types of transport, 
> such as RTP/AVP
> and image/udptl for non-RTP T.38 fax is clearly not a good idea.
> 

Agreed !

BTW,
in ch. 8.3.3 "Changing Media Types" of RFC3264 it says :
  "... The offerer MUST be prepared to
   receive media with both the old and new types until the answer is
   received, and media with the new type is received and reaches the top
   of the playout buffer."

If the UDP port number is reused during the switch over from
voice to T.38/UDPTL, this may end up, that T.38/UDPTL packets
will be thrown to the RTP stack until the answer for the 
switch over comes in ...

> >
> > Another good reason to mix these media types
> > is performance. Depending on the TTY terminal
> > type, a TTY transmission can start without a
> > startup sequence as it is used by fax or data
> > modem transmissions. Therefore the switch over
> > to text/t140 must be very fast otherwise you
> > loose characters. And the sending person doesn't
> > know if his characters were lost or not.
> > Now imagine a deaf person calling an emergancy
> > line ...
> > Sending a re-invite to switch over the connection
> > may use up a second in a heavy loaded network.
> 
> Agreed - you really need a solution that enables you to 
> switch on the fly,
> however currently we don't have that when the top-level MIME 
> types differ
> (note that FID and ALT don't give you these capabilities either).  The
> problem is, that SDP currently lacks a mechanism that would 
> enable us to
> negotiate different top-level MIME types in a single media 
> stream. This can
> however be addressed fairly easily by writing an extension to 
> offer/answer
> that uses SIMCAP (RFC 3407) capabilities during negotiation. 
> If there is
> interest, I can write something up.
> 
> -- Flemming
> 

Sounds good to me.
Even though SIMCAP only exchanges potential additional capabilities,
but there is no guarantee that the remote side will use its propagated
capability if it is not negotiated; e.g. to switch on the fly between
voice and text/t140 (both on top of RTP).



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From: Flemming Andreasen <fandreas@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: AW: [MMUSIC] WG Last Call on draft-rajeshkumar-mmusic-gpmd-02.txt
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Kreuter Ruediger wrote:

> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Flemming Andreasen [mailto:fandreas@cisco.com]
> > Gesendet: Freitag, 2. Mai 2003 04:01
> > An: Joerg Ott
> > Cc: mmusic@ietf.org; Colin Perkins; rkumar@cisco.com
> > Betreff: Re: [MMUSIC] WG Last Call on
> > draft-rajeshkumar-mmusic-gpmd-02.txt
> >
> >
> > In some off-line discussions, it was suggested, that we add
> > the following
> > as a new paragraph #3 in Section 3 (which defines the "vbd" gpmd
> > parameter):
> >
> > When use of a "vbd" media format has been negotiated, voice-band data
> > SHOULD be transported using either a "vbd" media format or another
> > negotiated media format suitable for transporting the
> > voice-band data in
> > question. Examples of such media formats include RFC 2833
> > (with support
> > for relevant data modem and fax tones),
>
> Up to now my understanding of RFC2833 was, that it can be used
> to relay the connection setup negotiation tones between fax/modem
> terminals, but not the fax/modem payload. Am I wrong with this ?

No. The above was trying to capture that transport of such things as V.25
ANS and V.8 ANSam using RFC 2833 would be just fine. Do you have any
suggested wording changes that would make that clearer ?

-- Flemming

>
>
> > T.38 fax relay, and
> > V.150 modem
> > relay. Non-examples include G.723, G729, and PCMU without an
> > accompanying "vbd" gpmd parameter. Note that selection of specific
> > suitable media formats is typically done on the basis of stimuli, such
> > as the detection of an answer tone, a fax preamble and a modem CM
> > signal, which may occur at different times.
> >
> >
> > Please let me know if you disagree with this.
> >
> > -- Flemming
> >
> >
>
> I agree with this additional paragraph in general.

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Kreuter Ruediger wrote:

> > >
> > > Another good reason to mix these media types
> > > is performance. Depending on the TTY terminal
> > > type, a TTY transmission can start without a
> > > startup sequence as it is used by fax or data
> > > modem transmissions. Therefore the switch over
> > > to text/t140 must be very fast otherwise you
> > > loose characters. And the sending person doesn't
> > > know if his characters were lost or not.
> > > Now imagine a deaf person calling an emergancy
> > > line ...
> > > Sending a re-invite to switch over the connection
> > > may use up a second in a heavy loaded network.
> >
> > Agreed - you really need a solution that enables you to
> > switch on the fly,
> > however currently we don't have that when the top-level MIME
> > types differ
> > (note that FID and ALT don't give you these capabilities either).  The
> > problem is, that SDP currently lacks a mechanism that would
> > enable us to
> > negotiate different top-level MIME types in a single media
> > stream. This can
> > however be addressed fairly easily by writing an extension to
> > offer/answer
> > that uses SIMCAP (RFC 3407) capabilities during negotiation.
> > If there is
> > interest, I can write something up.
> >
> > -- Flemming
> >
>
> Sounds good to me.
> Even though SIMCAP only exchanges potential additional capabilities,
> but there is no guarantee that the remote side will use its propagated
> capability if it is not negotiated; e.g. to switch on the fly between
> voice and text/t140 (both on top of RTP).

Right - the idea would be to extend those semantics in conjunction with
offer/answer.

-- Flemming

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From: Kreuter Ruediger <ruediger.kreuter@siemens.com>
To: "'Flemming Andreasen'" <fandreas@cisco.com>
Cc: mmusic@ietf.org, Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>, rkumar@cisco.com,
        Joerg Ott <jo@tzi.uni-bremen.de>
Subject: RE: [MMUSIC] WG Last Call on draft-rajeshkumar-mmusic-gpmd-02.txt
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 10:23:53 +0200 
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> > Kreuter Ruediger wrote:
> 
> > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > Von: Flemming Andreasen [mailto:fandreas@cisco.com]
> > > Gesendet: Freitag, 2. Mai 2003 04:01
> > > An: Joerg Ott
> > > Cc: mmusic@ietf.org; Colin Perkins; rkumar@cisco.com
> > > Betreff: Re: [MMUSIC] WG Last Call on
> > > draft-rajeshkumar-mmusic-gpmd-02.txt
> > >
> > >
> > > In some off-line discussions, it was suggested, that we add
> > > the following
> > > as a new paragraph #3 in Section 3 (which defines the "vbd" gpmd
> > > parameter):
> > >
> > > When use of a "vbd" media format has been negotiated, 
> voice-band data
> > > SHOULD be transported using either a "vbd" media format or another
> > > negotiated media format suitable for transporting the
> > > voice-band data in
> > > question. Examples of such media formats include RFC 2833
> > > (with support
> > > for relevant data modem and fax tones),
> >
> > Up to now my understanding of RFC2833 was, that it can be used
> > to relay the connection setup negotiation tones between fax/modem
> > terminals, but not the fax/modem payload. Am I wrong with this ?
> 
> No. The above was trying to capture that transport of such 
> things as V.25
> ANS and V.8 ANSam using RFC 2833 would be just fine. Do you have any
> suggested wording changes that would make that clearer ?

How about:

*****************************************************
When use of a "vbd" media format has been negotiated, 
voice-band data SHOULD be transported using either a 
"vbd" media format or another negotiated media format 
suitable for transporting the voice-band data in 
question. 
Examples of such media formats include T.38 fax relay 
and V.150 modem relay. Non-examples include G.723.1, 
G.729, and PCMA/PCMU without an accompanying "vbd" 
gpmd parameter. 
Note that selection of specific suitable media formats 
is typically done on the basis of stimuli, such as the 
detection of a calling or an answer tone, a V.21 preamble 
with fax flags or a modem CM signal, which may occur at 
different times.
In any case RFC 2833 may be used to relay relevant data 
modem and fax events.
*****************************************************

Regards, Ruediger

> 
> -- Flemming
> 
> > > T.38 fax relay, and
> > > V.150 modem
> > > relay. Non-examples include G.723, G729, and PCMU without an
> > > accompanying "vbd" gpmd parameter. Note that selection of specific
> > > suitable media formats is typically done on the basis of 
> stimuli, such
> > > as the detection of an answer tone, a fax preamble and a modem CM
> > > signal, which may occur at different times.
> > >
 
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To: Kreuter Ruediger <ruediger.kreuter@siemens.com>
CC: mmusic@ietf.org, Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>, rkumar@cisco.com,
        Joerg Ott <jo@tzi.uni-bremen.de>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] WG Last Call on draft-rajeshkumar-mmusic-gpmd-02.txt
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Kreuter Ruediger wrote:

>
> How about:
>
> *****************************************************
> When use of a "vbd" media format has been negotiated,
> voice-band data SHOULD be transported using either a
> "vbd" media format or another negotiated media format
> suitable for transporting the voice-band data in
> question.
> Examples of such media formats include T.38 fax relay
> and V.150 modem relay. Non-examples include G.723.1,
> G.729, and PCMA/PCMU without an accompanying "vbd"
> gpmd parameter.
> Note that selection of specific suitable media formats
> is typically done on the basis of stimuli, such as the
> detection of a calling or an answer tone, a V.21 preamble
> with fax flags or a modem CM signal, which may occur at
> different times.
> In any case RFC 2833 may be used to relay relevant data
> modem and fax events.
> *****************************************************
>
> Regards, Ruediger
>

Looks good to me.

-- Flemming



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Hi,

Apologies if this question has been addressed before.

RFC3264 says:

"If the stream to be placed on hold was previously a sendrecv media
   stream, it is placed on hold by marking it as sendonly.  If the
   stream to be placed on hold was previously a recvonly media stream,
   it is placed on hold by marking it inactive."

So, if the stream is sendonly, I presume that the sender simply stops sending RTP.

My question is: in the 2 cases indicated in the quote above, the receiver of the media gets to learn that the other side is not going to send media on that stream anymore. But if the case I describe, the receiver will not know. Is there a way for it to know?

- Does it use RTCP? 
- or can the sender send a new offer changing the stream from sendonly to inactive (seems a bit redundant, but its a way for the sender to inform the receiver that the stream is on hold)?

What is recommended?

Much appreciated,
Hisham
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To: Ross Finlayson <finlayson@live.com>
cc: mmusic@ietf.org, bquinn@12.40.60.227
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Updated SDP "source filter" Internet Draft 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:26:49 PDT."
             <4.3.1.1.20030415132203.00c43100@laptop-localhost> 
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--> Ross Finlayson writes:
>FYI, I have just submitted an updated copy of the SDP "source filter" 
>draft.  You can also find a copy online at
>	http://www.live.com/draft-mmusic-sdp-srcfilter-04.txt
>
>This version contains several formatting and 'I-D nit' improvements (thanks 
>to feedback from Magnus Westerlund and Colin Perkins), and clarifies how 
>source filters are applied to "c=" lines that specify multiple multicast 
>addresses.

Thanks, this is looking good. I have one minor issue, which is that there
is probably no need for an IANA sub-registry for "filter-mode" values, as
the set of possible choices is fixed. The references might also be moved
to be last, before the appendix. 

Colin
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From: "Jade Chen Yan" <jade@tencent.com>
To: <mmusic@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:06:35 +0800
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Subject: [MMUSIC] How to transverse the symmetric NAT
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Hi, list,
I am not sure this is the right place to ask such question. But I need help
indeed.

Suppose the scenario:

A has a public IP address , B is behind a symmetric NAT.  if A and B want to
have a call by RTP, the call control  signaling can be either H323 or SIP.
B can only get the A's RTP listening port , but cannot get A's RTP sending
port . So B cannot send a UDP package to  A's RTP sending port first. In
this case, A's RTP packets r locked down at B's NAT. (we use STUN to
determine B is behind the symmetric NAT.)

The solution I can get  now is relay, but the TURN is resource costly. Is
there any other better solution to this problem?(symmetric RTP cannot works
well in the system.)


Your reply will be highly appreciated.

Regards,
Jade



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From: Mark Hansen <Mark.Hansen@cirrusrtps.com.au>
To: "'mmusic@ietf.org'" <mmusic@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:26:27 +1000 
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Subject: [MMUSIC] Testing compliance to RTSP
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Hello,

During the course of my work, we have developed a software system, a part of
which which acts as a proxy server between a freely available video server
and end user client video software. We would like to check the compliance of
the server side interface to the proxy with the complete RTSP. 

I was wondering if anyone knew of any tools available to RTSP developers
that could, by interrogation of the specified RTSP interface that has been
developed, determine which parts of the protocol are being adhered to and
which are not.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Mark


Mark Hansen
Design Engineer

Cirrus Real Time Processing Systems Pty. Ltd.
Level 9, 99 Elizabeth Street,
Sydney, 2000
P.O. Box A2298,
Sydney South 1235
AUSTRALIA
Phone: +61 2 9231-2225
Fax: +61 2 9231-2252
Email: Mark.Hansen@cirrusrtps.com.au

***********************************************
Cirrus wins Cisco Systems Innovation Award, and
Telstra NSW Small Business of the Year 2002.
See NEWS section at www.cirrusrtps.com.au
***********************************************

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		 Mon, 05 May 2003 15:33:31 +0200
Subject: [MMUSIC] CfP:1st Europaen Workshop on WIreless Sensor Networks
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--------------080302020105080309090201
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Dear Colleague,

I would like to draw your attention to the " Frist European Workshop
on Wireless Sensor Networks" Berlin, January 2004 (see Attachement).
Submission deadline is July 1st, 2003: submission details are available
under      http://www.ewsn.org

Best regards
Adam Wolisz






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--------------080302020105080309090201--


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Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:06:31 +0200
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>
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To: Mark Hansen <Mark.Hansen@cirrusrtps.com.au>
CC: "'mmusic@ietf.org'" <mmusic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Testing compliance to RTSP
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Hi Mark,

They may be products out there that claim that they verify RTSP 
compliance. However the real picture in regards to RTSP is that the 
specification is not clear enough to result in fully interoperable RTSP 
implementations. Basic interoperability has been achieved for basic 
playback functionality. However a number of features or behavior that 
are rather centric to RTSP has been implemented differently by different 
vendors. This is the reason that in my opinion no one can currently 
develop a tool that test compliance.

Due to this differences we in this WG are currently working on updating 
the RTSP specification to something that will be possible to implement 
in an interoperable way. The latest version of the draft is 
"draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc2326bis-03.txt". This draft does not yet cover all 
the known issues. A list of bugs can be found at 
http://rtspspec.sourceforge.net. We also have teleconferences where we 
discuss issues and resolutions. A list of the minutes of meeting for 
these, see http://rtsp.org. I would recommend that you look at the 
changes list in the draft, the bugs and their resolutions, and what we 
discussed in the telecons to discover which changes we propose and areas 
where there has been unclearities regarding RTSP. I would also encourage 
you to write to this mailing list any question you have regarding RTSP 
issues. You are also welcome to join the RTSP telecons if you have input 
on anything on the agenda.

Best Regards

Magnus

Mark Hansen wrote:

>Hello,
>
>During the course of my work, we have developed a software system, a part of
>which which acts as a proxy server between a freely available video server
>and end user client video software. We would like to check the compliance of
>the server side interface to the proxy with the complete RTSP. 
>
>I was wondering if anyone knew of any tools available to RTSP developers
>that could, by interrogation of the specified RTSP interface that has been
>developed, determine which parts of the protocol are being adhered to and
>which are not.
>
>Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Mark
>
>
>Mark Hansen
>Design Engineer
>
>Cirrus Real Time Processing Systems Pty. Ltd.
>Level 9, 99 Elizabeth Street,
>Sydney, 2000
>P.O. Box A2298,
>Sydney South 1235
>AUSTRALIA
>Phone: +61 2 9231-2225
>Fax: +61 2 9231-2252
>Email: Mark.Hansen@cirrusrtps.com.au
>
>***********************************************
>Cirrus wins Cisco Systems Innovation Award, and
>Telstra NSW Small Business of the Year 2002.
>See NEWS section at www.cirrusrtps.com.au
>***********************************************
>
>COMMERCIAL-IN-CONFIDENCE
>
>CAUTION - This message may contain privileged and confidential information
>intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the
>intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use,
>dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message is prohibited.
>If you have received this message in error please notify Cirrus immediately.
>Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and
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>liability for any virus damage caused by this message.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>  
>

-- 

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research ERA/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se



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Thread-Topic: A NIT in RFC3264
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Section 8.3.1 says:

"The offerer SHOULD NOT cease listening for media on the old
   port until the answer is received and media arrives on the new port."

A couple of paragraphs later:

"The
   same is true for an offerer that sends an updated offer with a new
   port; it MUST NOT cease listening for media on the old port until
   media arrives on the new port."

There is a discrepancy here. I assume its a MUST NOT since the answerer behaviour is also specified as MUST NOT.

Regards,
Hisham
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Subject: RE: [MMUSIC] On hold when the stream is sendonly
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Let me simply the question:

How does A tell B that A will not send media to B on a certain media stream for a little while?

Thanks,
Hisham

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext hisham.khartabil@nokia.com 
> [mailto:hisham.khartabil@nokia.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 7:02 PM
> To: mmusic@ietf.org
> Subject: [MMUSIC] On hold when the stream is sendonly
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Apologies if this question has been addressed before.
> 
> RFC3264 says:
> 
> "If the stream to be placed on hold was previously a sendrecv media
>    stream, it is placed on hold by marking it as sendonly.  If the
>    stream to be placed on hold was previously a recvonly media stream,
>    it is placed on hold by marking it inactive."
> 
> So, if the stream is sendonly, I presume that the sender 
> simply stops sending RTP.
> 
> My question is: in the 2 cases indicated in the quote above, 
> the receiver of the media gets to learn that the other side 
> is not going to send media on that stream anymore. But if the 
> case I describe, the receiver will not know. Is there a way 
> for it to know?
> 
> - Does it use RTCP? 
> - or can the sender send a new offer changing the stream from 
> sendonly to inactive (seems a bit redundant, but its a way 
> for the sender to inform the receiver that the stream is on hold)?
> 
> What is recommended?
> 
> Much appreciated,
> Hisham
> _______________________________________________
> mmusic mailing list
> mmusic@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
> 
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From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@cisco.com>
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Alan/Robert,

I just got around to reading this, and have a couple of comments.

	Paul

2.2 Audio and Video 2

    Since Alice only supports one audio codec at a time, a second
    offer is made with just that one codec to limit the codec choice to
    just one.

This seems ok but a little odd to me. In the second exchange, used to 
reduce to one codec, Alice also changes the port. Since the old port 
included the same codec, and since it is necessary to support both ports 
during the transition, this seems like a silly thing to do.

3.2 Hold with Two Streams

    Alice sends but can not receive RFC2833 tones in a separate audio
    stream.  Bob accepts both audio streams.  Bob then puts Alice's audio
    stream on hold but not the tone stream.  Alice responds with
    identical SDP to the initial offer.

I think this is wrong. When Bob puts Alice's audio stream on hold 
(a=sendonly), Alice is obligated to respond with a=recvonly, so sending 
the old sdp that lacks that is improper.

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Subject: RE: [MMUSIC] Experiences with Media Discovery (for IMG)
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Hi Hitoshi

Thanks for your link, your article is very interesting. There are many issues you cover which are easy to formulate into the requirements and use cases for IMG. So it will be great to collaborate on this issue.

I see you have made some broad conclusions along the same lines of my thinking:
* SAP is not sufficient and often not suitable, especially due to scalability and reliability issues
* XML is a good basis for content descriptions
* SSM is a particularly important use case
* HTTP is sufficient for fetching metadata

And, your general requirements (scalability, easy deployment, flexible policy and scope controls, conformance to SSM-only network) are important for IMG. Could you paraphrase you requirements and use cases so I can practically "cut & paste" into an ID? (Or you could submit an ID on requirements, for later aggregation to IMG, as DVB-IPI did for their considerations).

Also, you in depth analysis on SSM requirements would be of great benefit to IMG, so please contribute!

Some exclusions which IMG needs to cover "system-wide" in addition are:
* It is also desirable to support ASM "media description" and metadata delivery
* Some of our use cases mandate the use of unidirectional multicast delivery (IP broadcast including broadcast radio access)

I very much like your categorization of multicast session discovery approaches: "invitation model", "announcement model" and "session directory model". After working with a few methods, I came to the conclusion that "one-size-fits-all" is close to fitting square pegs in small hexagonal holes (you get the idea), so our aim is to limit the baseline IMG specification to the minimum number of methods for all general sizes (hence a p-t-m and a p-t-p ID). I guess the only obstacle to including the invitation and session directory models in the same p-t-p ID is the choice of protocols. We should discuss this further - any ideas?

I am not quite sure how you partition your metadata to allow a host to get specific entries from a CR (or indeed the CR to select the entries to send and how to group those entries) - can you explain (apologies if I missed this in the text).

There is still a great need to delimit and scope IMG so it is not possible to make too many certain conclusions on what IMG will be until specific items are accepted to the MMUSIC charter. In particular, we have use cases where metadata MUST be delivered by unidirectional multicast and others where it must be delivered over unicast, and there should be individually submitted IDs on both p-t-m (MUPPET+1) and p-t-p (00) available for discussion by IETF-57. These currently represent our best effort and it is highly desirable to get more contribution on these, identify if others are needed and deal with making IMG extensible for application beyond IETF transport area.

In this sense I understand the error in your paper...
"
Internet Media Guides (IMGs) [8] has been recently proposed in IETF MMUSIC WG.
IMGs allow users to initiate streaming media sessions, schedule delivery of downloadable
or multicast content or listen to live multicast sessions. The fact that it relies on WWW
collaboration schemes and that it creates a media directory system for the Internet is very
interesting. Unfortunately, however, there is no concrete architecture yet and it does not
provide any eective scoping technique or policy management whereas we consider these
aspect as central to our own needs. Furthermore, since there is no realistic protocol design,
it seems that SAP will be used continuously.
"
...I very much doubt that we could justify using SAP continuously (and have little desire to do so). Also, I would appreciate it if you could give requirements on the architectures. Our current view is along the lines of "generic enough to handle most IP-based architectures, and including proxies, etc. is wanted". And, any improvements you can contribute to the evolving MUPPET (etc) to make it a more realist protocol design would be much appreciated :)

Of course you are right that the current IMG contributes are not sufficient for all the current requirements, but I hope you are encouraged to help out in this work-in-progress. Certainly, your ideas on policy control and scope control could be very useful for a "better-than-SAP" announcement protocol implementation - as in MUPPET (in addition to the p-t-p case).

Cheers (and have a great weekend), Rod.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Hitoshi Asaeda [mailto:Hitoshi.Asaeda@sophia.inria.fr]
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 6:39 PM
> To: Walsh Rod (NRC/Tampere)
> Cc: mmusic@ietf.org; nom@flab.fujitsu.co.jp; 
> hgs@cs.columbia.edu; Luoma
> Juha-Pekka (NRC/Tampere); pstallard@tandbergtv.com; Paila Toni
> (NVO/Helsinki); jo@informatik.uni-bremen.de
> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Experiences with Media Discovery (for IMG)
> 
> 
> Hi Rod.
> 
> > I really need to find out about YOUR experience in media
> > announcements and descriptor delivery. SDP and SAP love and hate
> > knowledge as well as moving the metadata point-to-point (FTP, HTTP
> > are pretty well used) and new work (SIP, SDPng, etc.) are very
> > important so we can put together a picture of what a really needed
> > by our IP world. Ultimately, our purpose is to be able to specify
> > really useful protocols, etc. as IDs -> RFCs. But first we have a
> > basic goal to compile:
> 
> I've put a draft version of my paper related to this discussion before
> the last IETF.
> Our new "channel announcement mechamism" is called "Channel 
> Reflector".
> The purpose of this proposal is to provide a feasible channel
> announcement mechanism for SSM environment without using SAP
> advertisement. By using Channel Reflector, we can eliminate source
> discovery procedure from multicast service model.
> Some parts of the idea can be overwrapped to IMG, therefore we may be
> able to collaborate.
> 
> If you are interested in, you'd be able to get it from;
> <http://www.inria.fr/rrrt/rr-4762.html>.
> 
> Any comment would be appreciate.
> 
> Thanks.
> --
> Hitoshi Asaeda
> 
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Subject: RE: [MMUSIC] Testing compliance to RTSP
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Magnus,

As one that is active in an interoperability group , we had also some discussion about compliance and interoperate - these are 2 different things - Interoperability is achieved by some vendors who understand in the same way the standard - it does not mean that they implement it all and that they are compliant, but together they will work perfect. 

so basically I am against giving any compliance certifications since practically I believe that there is no fully compliant system living out there today.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 6:07 PM
> To: Mark Hansen
> Cc: 'mmusic@ietf.org'
> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Testing compliance to RTSP
> 
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> They may be products out there that claim that they verify RTSP 
> compliance. However the real picture in regards to RTSP is that the 
> specification is not clear enough to result in fully 
> interoperable RTSP 
> implementations. Basic interoperability has been achieved for basic 
> playback functionality. However a number of features or behavior that 
> are rather centric to RTSP has been implemented differently 
> by different 
> vendors. This is the reason that in my opinion no one can currently 
> develop a tool that test compliance.
> 
> Due to this differences we in this WG are currently working 
> on updating 
> the RTSP specification to something that will be possible to 
> implement 
> in an interoperable way. The latest version of the draft is 
> "draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc2326bis-03.txt". This draft does not 
> yet cover all 
> the known issues. A list of bugs can be found at 
> http://rtspspec.sourceforge.net. We also have teleconferences 
> where we 
> discuss issues and resolutions. A list of the minutes of meeting for 
> these, see http://rtsp.org. I would recommend that you look at the 
> changes list in the draft, the bugs and their resolutions, 
> and what we 
> discussed in the telecons to discover which changes we 
> propose and areas 
> where there has been unclearities regarding RTSP. I would 
> also encourage 
> you to write to this mailing list any question you have 
> regarding RTSP 
> issues. You are also welcome to join the RTSP telecons if you 
> have input 
> on anything on the agenda.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Magnus
> 
> Mark Hansen wrote:
> 
> >Hello,
> >
> >During the course of my work, we have developed a software 
> system, a part of
> >which which acts as a proxy server between a freely 
> available video server
> >and end user client video software. We would like to check 
> the compliance of
> >the server side interface to the proxy with the complete RTSP. 
> >
> >I was wondering if anyone knew of any tools available to 
> RTSP developers
> >that could, by interrogation of the specified RTSP interface 
> that has been
> >developed, determine which parts of the protocol are being 
> adhered to and
> >which are not.
> >
> >Any information would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
> >Mark Hansen
> >Design Engineer
> >
> >Cirrus Real Time Processing Systems Pty. Ltd.
> >Level 9, 99 Elizabeth Street,
> >Sydney, 2000
> >P.O. Box A2298,
> >Sydney South 1235
> >AUSTRALIA
> >Phone: +61 2 9231-2225
> >Fax: +61 2 9231-2252
> >Email: Mark.Hansen@cirrusrtps.com.au
> >
> >***********************************************
> >Cirrus wins Cisco Systems Innovation Award, and
> >Telstra NSW Small Business of the Year 2002.
> >See NEWS section at www.cirrusrtps.com.au
> >***********************************************
> >
> >COMMERCIAL-IN-CONFIDENCE
> >
> >CAUTION - This message may contain privileged and 
> confidential information
> >intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If 
> you are not the
> >intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified 
> that any use,
> >dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message 
> is prohibited.
> >If you have received this message in error please notify 
> Cirrus immediately.
> >Any views expressed in this message are those of the 
> individual sender and
> >may not necessarily reflect the views of Cirrus. Cirrus cannot accept
> >liability for any virus damage caused by this message.
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >mmusic mailing list
> >mmusic@ietf.org
> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> -- 
> 
> Magnus Westerlund 
> 
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research ERA/TVA/A
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mmusic mailing list
> mmusic@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
> 

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Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:47:19 +0200
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>
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To: Amir Wolf <Amir.Wolf@emblaze.com>
CC: Mark Hansen <Mark.Hansen@cirrusrtps.com.au>, mmusic@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Testing compliance to RTSP
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Hi Amir,

I can agree with you that there is differnce between compliance and 
interoperability. In the end, it is the interoperability that is 
important. However I hope that you agree that interoperability is easier 
to accomplish if one is tries to be compliant with a standard. This as 
long as everyone agree what compliant means in regards to protocol actions.

My point being, due to the many shortcommings in the RTSP specification 
there is hard to achieve a common view that one can be compliant against.

Regards

Magnus

Amir Wolf wrote:

>Magnus,
>
>As one that is active in an interoperability group , we had also some discussion about compliance and interoperate - these are 2 different things - Interoperability is achieved by some vendors who understand in the same way the standard - it does not mean that they implement it all and that they are compliant, but together they will work perfect. 
>
>so basically I am against giving any compliance certifications since practically I believe that there is no fully compliant system living out there today.
>
>  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se]
>>Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 6:07 PM
>>To: Mark Hansen
>>Cc: 'mmusic@ietf.org'
>>Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Testing compliance to RTSP
>>
>>
>>Hi Mark,
>>
>>They may be products out there that claim that they verify RTSP 
>>compliance. However the real picture in regards to RTSP is that the 
>>specification is not clear enough to result in fully 
>>interoperable RTSP 
>>implementations. Basic interoperability has been achieved for basic 
>>playback functionality. However a number of features or behavior that 
>>are rather centric to RTSP has been implemented differently 
>>by different 
>>vendors. This is the reason that in my opinion no one can currently 
>>develop a tool that test compliance.
>>
>>Due to this differences we in this WG are currently working 
>>on updating 
>>the RTSP specification to something that will be possible to 
>>implement 
>>in an interoperable way. The latest version of the draft is 
>>"draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc2326bis-03.txt". This draft does not 
>>yet cover all 
>>the known issues. A list of bugs can be found at 
>>http://rtspspec.sourceforge.net. We also have teleconferences 
>>where we 
>>discuss issues and resolutions. A list of the minutes of meeting for 
>>these, see http://rtsp.org. I would recommend that you look at the 
>>changes list in the draft, the bugs and their resolutions, 
>>and what we 
>>discussed in the telecons to discover which changes we 
>>propose and areas 
>>where there has been unclearities regarding RTSP. I would 
>>also encourage 
>>you to write to this mailing list any question you have 
>>regarding RTSP 
>>issues. You are also welcome to join the RTSP telecons if you 
>>have input 
>>on anything on the agenda.
>>
>>Best Regards
>>
>>Magnus
>>
>>Mark Hansen wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Hello,
>>>
>>>During the course of my work, we have developed a software 
>>>      
>>>
>>system, a part of
>>    
>>
>>>which which acts as a proxy server between a freely 
>>>      
>>>
>>available video server
>>    
>>
>>>and end user client video software. We would like to check 
>>>      
>>>
>>the compliance of
>>    
>>
>>>the server side interface to the proxy with the complete RTSP. 
>>>
>>>I was wondering if anyone knew of any tools available to 
>>>      
>>>
>>RTSP developers
>>    
>>
>>>that could, by interrogation of the specified RTSP interface 
>>>      
>>>
>>that has been
>>    
>>
>>>developed, determine which parts of the protocol are being 
>>>      
>>>
>>adhered to and
>>    
>>
>>>which are not.
>>>
>>>Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>Mark Hansen
>>>Design Engineer
>>>
>>>Cirrus Real Time Processing Systems Pty. Ltd.
>>>Level 9, 99 Elizabeth Street,
>>>Sydney, 2000
>>>P.O. Box A2298,
>>>Sydney South 1235
>>>AUSTRALIA
>>>Phone: +61 2 9231-2225
>>>Fax: +61 2 9231-2252
>>>Email: Mark.Hansen@cirrusrtps.com.au
>>>
>>>***********************************************
>>>Cirrus wins Cisco Systems Innovation Award, and
>>>Telstra NSW Small Business of the Year 2002.
>>>See NEWS section at www.cirrusrtps.com.au
>>>***********************************************
>>>
>>>COMMERCIAL-IN-CONFIDENCE
>>>
>>>CAUTION - This message may contain privileged and 
>>>      
>>>
>>confidential information
>>    
>>
>>>intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If 
>>>      
>>>
>>you are not the
>>    
>>
>>>intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified 
>>>      
>>>
>>that any use,
>>    
>>
>>>dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message 
>>>      
>>>
>>is prohibited.
>>    
>>
>>>If you have received this message in error please notify 
>>>      
>>>
>>Cirrus immediately.
>>    
>>
>>>Any views expressed in this message are those of the 
>>>      
>>>
>>individual sender and
>>    
>>
>>>may not necessarily reflect the views of Cirrus. Cirrus cannot accept
>>>liability for any virus damage caused by this message.
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>mmusic mailing list
>>>mmusic@ietf.org
>>>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>-- 
>>
>>Magnus Westerlund 
>>
>>Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research ERA/TVA/A
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
>>Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
>>S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>mmusic mailing list
>>mmusic@ietf.org
>>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
>>
>>    
>>
>
>**************************************************************************************************
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>If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or  the 
>sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies.
>
>** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content **
>**************************************************************************************************
>
>  
>

-- 

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research ERA/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se



_______________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:37:09 +0200
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se>
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Subject: [MMUSIC] RTSP telecon - Agenda 14th of May
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Hi,

Here is the agenda for the RTSP telecon on wednesday the 14th of May. It 
starts at 18.00 CET (GMT+2). If you are not a member of the RTSP 
logistics and have not received the details of the telecon, please send 
me a mail.

---------
Agenda 030514 18.00 CET (GMT+2)

1. Opening of meeting.
2. Since last meeting (16th of April).
  a. http://rtsp.org/bug513737 - Waiting for write up.
  b. Bug 533691 &  513880
      - Waiting for updated text after resolution of issues.
  c. http://rtsp.org/bug556295 - Thomas to write text.
  d. Multiple SSRC in RTSP.
      - Aravind to write updated text. 
3. New Things
  a. http://rtsp.org/bug631957 Use of # and ? in RTSP URLs?
  b. http://rtsp.org/bug633779 SET_PARAMETER responses. 
  c. http://rtsp.org/bug634944 Restarting media not allowing seek
  d. http://rtsp.org/bug640265 Extension of Transport header
  e. http://rtsp.org/bug640272 Default way of deriving aggregate URL
  f. http://rtsp.org/bug662436 RTP/AVP/TCP w/o interleaved
  g. The use of ";" in the specification - Tom Marshall.
4. Administrative
   a. Phase 2 of the work. Getting text into shape.
5. Any other Issues
6. Next meeting - Proposal: 28th of May
7. End meeting

-- 
Best Regards

Magnus Westerlund 

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research ERA/TVA/A
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@era.ericsson.se


_______________________________________________
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Rod,

> Thanks for your link, your article is very interesting. There are
> many issues you cover which are easy to formulate into the
> requirements and use cases for IMG. So it will be great to
> collaborate on this issue.

Thanks for your faborable reply.

> And, your general requirements (scalability, easy deployment,
> flexible policy and scope controls, conformance to SSM-only network)
> are important for IMG. Could you paraphrase you requirements and use
> cases so I can practically "cut & paste" into an ID? (Or you could
> submit an ID on requirements, for later aggregation to IMG, as
> DVB-IPI did for their considerations).

At the beginning, I'd like to ask you about the current situation
about IMG.
To be honest, I have a feeling IMG's draft doesn't give us the
concreat architecture. I know this is because the current I-D is a
framework draft, but it would not be sufficient for the point of the
implementation and deployment.

> Also, you in depth analysis on SSM requirements would be of great
> benefit to IMG, so please contribute!

Fine.
I'll consider that Channel Reflector (CR) should be included in the
IMG's draft or mentioned in a new one. At this moment, I think
separate draft may be better, in order to categorize each draft as a
"framework" draft and a "architectural" draft (like MUPPET?).

> I am not quite sure how you partition your metadata to allow a host
> to get specific entries from a CR (or indeed the CR to select the
> entries to send and how to group those entries) - can you explain
> (apologies if I missed this in the text).

Are you talking about the method to validate or classify data
sender/receiver? If so, it's not mentioned in my paper, since I think
it depends on the implementation and there are several possibilities.
But such information (that I mentioned in Sect. 5.2 and 5.3)
maintained by CR can include the key word to handle it as its basic
components.
If this is not your answer, please tell me.

Thanks.
--
Hitoshi Asaeda
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Hi Hitoshi

see in-line...

> At the beginning, I'd like to ask you about the current situation
> about IMG.

We currently have 3 individual drafts relating to requirements and framework which are excellent input material, now we need more input material from anyone who is working or is interested in this area.

When we discussed the media discovery with the IETF Transport Area Directors we had anticipated talking protocol needs, but they made it clear that first up was that the requirements and use cases and a framework of how to use _existing_ protocols for these should come from the working group. To enable the broadest possible contribution to this area and provide natural justification for any specific work items that are needed, this makes a lot of sense.

Our goal for IMG is to get open and interoperable IETF standards for our IP-domain problems of delivering descriptions of multicast media and make sure that anyone trying to implement IMG has sufficient specification to do this and be interoperable. Because of this, we can anticipate some of the specific work items (e.g. the MUPPET protocol) that will be identified, but I'm trying to limit my field of view to the initial two IDs for now so we get progress.

The exact work that MMUSIC will pursue and support must be on its charter first, so I'm not being too specific at the moment (thought the IETF-56 IMG presentation is still alive and highly relevant).

> To be honest, I have a feeling IMG's draft doesn't give us the
> concreat architecture. I know this is because the current I-D is a
> framework draft, but it would not be sufficient for the point of the
> implementation and deployment.

Totally correct. The current drafts around IMG (and pguide before it) are neither sufficient nor finished. I hope the authors will get comments to influence them as they develop towards completion.

The end point for IMG must be a set of standards that allow interoperable implementations and we're some way from that yet. In this sense, it would be fantastic if you would contribute ideas and material to help make IMG work. Your paper on Channel Reflectors had very many good observations and ideas which should feed naturally into the IMG food chain.

> I'll consider that Channel Reflector (CR) should be included in the
> IMG's draft or mentioned in a new one. At this moment, I think
> separate draft may be better, in order to categorize each draft as a
> "framework" draft and a "architectural" draft (like MUPPET?).

For the purpose of communicating the idea, a separate draft is a great idea - I'm looking forward to it!

> > I am not quite sure how you partition your metadata to allow a host
> > to get specific entries from a CR (or indeed the CR to select the
> > entries to send and how to group those entries) - can you explain
> > (apologies if I missed this in the text).
> Are you talking about the method to validate or classify data
> sender/receiver? If so, it's not mentioned in my paper, since I think
> it depends on the implementation and there are several possibilities.
> But such information (that I mentioned in Sect. 5.2 and 5.3)
> maintained by CR can include the key word to handle it as its basic
> components.
> If this is not your answer, please tell me.

I get the feeling that it was my answer :)

Luoma's metadata ID (draft-luoma-mmusic-img-metadata-00) describes "metadata elements" and "content bundles" (among others), which could be used to identify a specific grouping of metadata. This metadata grouping is important, especially, for metadata management so that hosts can deal with expiry and renewal etc. Of course, it's also useful for the simple stuff like identifying the metadata for a certain media stream.

In the context of your Channel Reflector paper, you'll need some information (an HTTP URL I guess) to go and grab the metadata, but still we need to partition the metadata. For instance, fetching a full 6GB database may not be the most fun since space travel. Still fetching each single entry one by one may be rather laborious - and surely scalability arguments abound for both cases. Thus, by grouping/partitioning the metadata (and identifying that set of data), fetching it becomes more useful. If you have an ideas or work in this area, it would be good to hear them too.

I'm looking forward to seeing your use cases and requirements appear on the reflector soon!

Cheers, Rod.


> Thanks.
> --
> Hitoshi Asaeda
> 
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Multiparty Multimedia Session Control Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: A Transport Independent Bandwidth Modifier for the 
                          Session Description Protocol (SDP)
	Author(s)	: M. Westerlund
	Filename	: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bwparam-03.txt
	Pages		: 17
	Date		: 2003-5-28
	
The existing Session Description Protocol (SDP) bandwidth modifiers
and their values include the bandwidth needed also for the transport
and IP layers. When using SDP with protocols like the Session
Announcement Protocol (SAP), the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)
and the Real-Time Streaming Protocol (RTSP) and when the involved
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include transport overhead; instead an additional packet rate
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Subject: [MMUSIC] WG last call: draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bwparam-03.txt
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This is to announce a working group last call on the Transport Independent
Bandwidth Modifier for SDP <draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bwparam-03.txt>. Please
send any final comments on this draft to the mailing list by Friday, 13th
June 2003. If no substantive issues are raised by that time, we propose to
ask the IESG to publish this as a Proposed Standard RFC.

-- 
Colin Perkins
http://csperkins.org/
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	(envelope-from csp@purple.nge.isi.edu)
To: "Even, Roni" <roni.even@polycom.co.il>
cc: Orit Levin <orit@radvision.com>, "'Cullen Jennings'" <fluffy@cisco.com>,
        MMusic <mmusic@ietf.org>, Sean Olson <seancolson@yahoo.com>,
        rony.even@polycom.co.il, Alan Johnston <alan.johnston@mci.com>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] RE: Question about draft-levin-mmusic-xml-media-cont rol 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 22 May 2003 15:01:14 +0300."
             <C550397C3B6AEB418E62170D9E349CE2137134@ACCORD-NTSRV3> 
From: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:44:44 -0400
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--> "Even, Roni" writes:
>Collin,
>Thanks for the response.
>
>1. About freeze. This is true for H.261 and H.263. The idea of the freeze is
>to tell the decoder to continue decoding but stop display until a freeze
>release arrives. If the full picture arrives in one frame like in H.263 and
>H.261 the MCU can monitor and start sending when he sees the freeze release.
>In H.264 a full picture can span over more then one frame by doing slice
>update, we decided to allow the fast update to span over more then one frame
>as long as the full picture will arrive in less then 3 seconds (better
>congestion behavior). In this case we want the receiver to start displaying
>when the last part has arrived, so the MCU will not know when to start
>sending and the receiver will not know when to start displaying.

Okay, that's a little clearer now. The idea is to avoid the MCU having to
understand the video?

>2. As for the feedback draft, there was no consensus about having a fast
>update request, the opinion was that this is an indication that will allow
>the encoder to decide how to handle it. In the case of MCU video switch the
>encoder does not have enough information to know what is the right behavior
>since he is not aware that the reason was a video switch and not some other
>reason.

I'm not sure it should matter why there is an update request, but if there
is a justification, it would seem appropriate to include the reason in the
RTCP message somehow.

Colin
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From: musicnetwork@violino.dsi.unifi.it
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To: mmusic@ietf.org
Subject: [MMUSIC] CFC: MUSICNETWORK Open Workshop Call, Leeds, UK, September 2003
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As promised to most of you, we are trying to 
organise the Second Open workshop of MUSICNETWORK Thematic Network
of the European Commission. A service to put together industrial and research
communities. http://www.interactivemusicnetwork.org   

I hope that you can contribute with your valuable activity
at the workshop. See in the Following the Call for Contributions.

The workshop will be partially overlapped with the WEDELMUSIC conference
mainly focussed on research aspects and multimedia, DRM technologies 
http://www.wedelmusic.org/wedelmusic2003/index.html

Specific workshops are going to be organised as additional events.

Send an email back with a REMOVE in the subject to musicnetwork@dsi.unifi.it
if you prefer to not receivie thie emails in the future.

cheers,
Paolo Nesi
(MUSICNETWORK, Thematic Network of the European Commission)


.-.-.-.-.-.-.ò-ò-ò-ò-ò-ò-.-.-.-.-.-ò-ò-ò-ò-ò-.-.-.-.-.-ò-ò-ò-ò-ò-

CALL for CONTRIBUTIONS
Second MUSICNETWORK Open Workshop
University of Leeds, Leeds, UK
17-18 September, 2003, Open to all
http://www.interactivemusicnetwork.org 

Solutions for Music Distribution and Fruition:
Two days dedicated to the emerging applications for Music: 
on the www, multimedia integration and mobile.
Tutorials, Products, Best practices, Case Studies and 
Innovative Applications.

The main theme of the Second MUSICNETWORK workshop is 
dedicated to the state of the art and the identification 
of the future trends in music. on the WWW, multimedia 
integration and mobile. The Open Workshop is free, no registration 
fee is requested to attend the sections of the Workshop. 
A preliminary registration will be requested to have an estimation 
of the number of registered people. The workshop is economically 
supported by the European Commission with the MUSICNETWORK project.

The MUSICNETWORK will give space to industries, experts, 
professionals and research institutions that are working in this 
sector to present their work in an open environment in which the 
innovation will be promoted with benefits for all the community. 
To this end, a set of calls have been opened as described in the 
following. 

Deadline for the submission is the 1st of July 2003 according to 
the following descriptions. 

*+****+Call for Tutorial*+****+
Tutorial proposals have to be presented as 2-3 pages description 
including: description of the tutorial, list of the tools mentioned, 
name and biography of the person giving the tutorial, history of the 
tutorial if it has been already given other times. The tutorial should 
be focussed on more than one product and should give a general view 
of the problems of the topic. 
The tutorials have to be of 45 minutes and should to be focussed on 
the following topics: 
-- production of courseware and content for music education
-- production of music scores for publishing 
-- music distribution and protection
-- Standardization: MPEG, SMIL, SVG, XHTML, XML...
--….

*+****+Call for Products & Best Practices*+****+
Product presentations have to be proposed as 1-2 pages description as
a flyer with possibly a demo to be uploaded on the MUSICNETWORK www 
site. In addition, it is requested to know: name and biography of the 
person giving the presentation, material distributed during the 
workshop, number of customers using the products and a description 
of its diffusion. The presentation has to be focussed on a general 
view of the product, architecture, format, most important features, 
future developments and evolutions, integration and interoperability 
aspects, etc. The selected Products will be entitled to use the seal 
"Assessed by MUSICNETWORK". The selected products will have 30 minutes
of presentation and should be focussed on the following topics: 
-- Music educational tools
-- Music sheet production tools
-- Integration of Music and Multimedia tools
-- Digital asset management for music and multimedia archives tools
-- Music, Multimedia and Content Protection  and distribution tools
-- Music tools for impaired people
--….

*+****+Call for Case study, Problems*+****+
The case studies have to be proposed with a simple description of the
problem. They may be or not accompanied by some examples (or tools 
that are close to cope with them), and/or by the sketch of an ideal 
solution. The accepted case studies will be discussed in the Open 
Workshop and on the WWW site. Each accepted case study will have 10 minutes
to explain the problem at the workshop to start the discussion for other
15-20 minutes. Specific experts will be invited by the MUSICNETWORK to 
cope with the problem explained. The presenter of the problem can even 
decide to remain anonymous.  In that case, one of our experts will explain 
the problem in front of the audience. Preferred topics are:
-- Music notation formats
-- Multimedia and music notation
-- Music recognition 
-- …

*+****+Call for innovative Applications with demo*+****+
Innovative applications are typically in a middle status from research 
work and real products. They have been probably proposed in the past as
research works while they have not been supported enough to become real
products. They have to be proposed as 2-3 pages description as a flyer 
with possibly a demo to be uploaded on the MUSICNETWORK www site. The 
selected Applications will be entitled to use the seal "Assessed by 
MUSICNETWORK". In addition, it is requested to know: name and biography 
of the person giving the presentation, material distributed during the 
workshop. Preferred topics are:
-- Music notation usage
-- Multimedia and music notation
-- Music recognition 
-- …

The proposals will be assessed, voted and selected by MUSICNETWORK 
experts and participants. Among the selected, the best 2-3 proposals 
for Tutorial, Case Study Problems and innovative Applications categories
will be economically supported to attend the workshop and give their
presentation, while we will give space to present the results to a very
large number of proposals in each category. A large visibility will be 
given to all proposals on the WWW site. All the proposals will be posted
on the WWW site, if this is not acceptable for you please mention in the
proposal and email.

The documents submitted will be collected and used for creating the 
Proceedings distributed during the conference and via the WWW site. 

The selected Products and Applications will be entitled to use the seal
"Assessed by MUSICNETWORK". The results of the assessment and the follow
up of your presentation at the workshop will be presented on the WWW site.  

Submissions have to be sent via email to mailto:musicnetwork@dsi.unifi.it
 within the 1st of July, 2003. The acceptance and the evaluation will be 
communicated within the 15th of July, 2003. 


-.-.-.-.-ò-ò-ò-ò-ò-.-.-.-.-ò-ò-ò-ò--ò-.-.-.-.-ò-ò-ò-ò-ò-.-.-.-ò-ò--ò-ò-
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