From nobody Mon Feb 3 05:21:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97921200B4 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 05:21:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qkCpG-yDJXOw for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 05:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55829120096 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 05:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D82BE47 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 13:21:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WSy2DQ1CPTQr for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 13:21:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (unknown [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7FD43BE2F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 13:21:21 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1580736081; bh=itNggo+uFMdqMU86XmNQOdoaLXJGBmfBYf1g6Sl1jUM=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From; b=16HQO2X7x5vfaqPUXM4vtsaIH/WvM5zi1piTUTG083xoR1hWzWj6jCqHYDgonBDGN HaNgVKDA7zd/qX7WyMUMq4XMzvNTrCUlKpyof3jG2kUP/jFkyEs164eNuuO11FJdK3 1YGG0eoanph3ij11xn/QMyf1eCeX+mTJiscdIL9w= To: "model-t@iab.org" From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <2616f05c-eb3f-6d7f-73fb-ac45031ff910@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2020 13:21:20 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BVnXYnz1uiceJGoLJZnfMU8cepc32UKrI" Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] model-t webex chat - Friday Feb 14th 1600 UTC X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2020 13:21:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --BVnXYnz1uiceJGoLJZnfMU8cepc32UKrI Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="HVErpLKWYgBpeFcC8oh9zCFw4Zsdqzz8Q"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "model-t@iab.org" Message-ID: <2616f05c-eb3f-6d7f-73fb-ac45031ff910@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: model-t webex chat - Friday Feb 14th 1600 UTC --HVErpLKWYgBpeFcC8oh9zCFw4Zsdqzz8Q Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F1FAB77E089FDAA50F5B2861" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F1FAB77E089FDAA50F5B2861 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, We had agreed to have a voice chat on Feb 14th at 1600 UTC. I've scheduled 2 hours but hopefully an hour will be enough. Webex details for that are below. Any issues, just mail me. (As I'm a co-chair of the IETF lake WG, I used that webex account to schedule the meeting, so don't be confused if you see "IETF lake WG" somewhere:-) In terms of agenda, I guess we'll want to chat about the draft programme charter [1] that Jari sent out (and the ensuing discussion). Jari and I have also done some more work on our draft and hope to post an update to that this week. If we get that done we'll likely suggest it as another agenda item. If people with other relevant drafts would like a slot to chat about those, please let us know offlist or in reply to this and we'll be happy to add those to the agenda. If anyone would like to suggest other agenda items, those are also welcome. In any case, please suggest any agenda items this week so we can finalise the agenda say by next Monday (Feb 10th). If anyone wants to use slides, please send me a pdf ahead of time (say by Feb 12th) so we can make those accessible for meeting participants. Cheers, S. [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/model-t/xcYqYpfHPzjxvjge1W6IVN8bnDU= JOIN WEBEX MEETING https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm82d465ac757384fd12c9cac951c3402= 6 Meeting number (access code): 642 596 504 Host key: 775365 Meeting password: 6G2Dq83x JOIN BY PHONE 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Tap here to call (mobile phones only, hosts not supported): tel:%2B1-650-479-3208,,*01*642596504%23%23*01* 1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada) Tap here to call (mobile phones only, hosts not supported): tel:1-877-668-4493,,*01*642596504%23%23*01* Global call-in numbers https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/globalcallin.php?MTID=3Dmde5d8cd5b3dcc78b017e= 4951dee69259 Toll-free calling restrictions https://www.webex.com/pdf/tollfree_restrictions.pdf JOIN FROM A VIDEO SYSTEM OR APPLICATION Dial sip:642596504@ietf.webex.com You can also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number. Join using Microsoft Lync or Microsoft Skype for Business Dial sip:642596504.ietf@lync.webex.com Can't join the meeting? Contact support here: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/mc IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please note that this Webex service allows audio and other information sent during the session to be recorded, which may be discoverable in a legal matter. 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autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m8b8TnHgCcPX for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 14:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74CAF12001B for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 14:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7547300B3D for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 17:11:14 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id BKdAfXIPYL9h for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 17:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-108-51-198-163.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.51.198.163]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D2C20300A0D for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2020 17:11:13 -0500 (EST) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2020 17:37:54 -0500 To: model-t X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Is this relevant to Model-T? X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2020 22:37:58 -0000 https://www.cs.stevens.edu/~nicolosi/papers/FIA14.pdf I was searching for something else when I stumbled across this paper. = In Section 3, the authors are talking about the properties that they = want from the distributed information utility: dependable, secure, = flexible, and extensible. Reading between the lines, they seem to be = saying that a threat is something that prevents achieving one of these = properties. Russ From nobody Wed Feb 5 09:34:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 930E91200BA for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2020 09:34:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isoc.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uIPGK39MnlhD for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2020 09:34:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12on2082.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.244.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86EED120077 for ; 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_9DD94A3B-46AA-4FEC-A191-9FA0D7BD78FB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d69a9438-c590-4f41-bafd-08d7aa6192d9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Feb 2020 17:33:54.6897 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: vBWUzpFPm0GqYFa2ke7aewiBGYmNQLSqajPSOwOztItINZ94JJWX4lBY3hVn0ZoM X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4947 Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Dependable, secure, flexible and extensible X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2020 17:34:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9DD94A3B-46AA-4FEC-A191-9FA0D7BD78FB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7FD5C3C1-2F3E-43F1-8A91-E877A80BA171" --Apple-Mail=_7FD5C3C1-2F3E-43F1-8A91-E877A80BA171 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Russ, Thanks for spotting this. I expect Ekr will probably have some thoughts = about whether this meaningfully changes the scope of what model-t is = considering, as (to my recollection) most of the comments about scope, = in Singapore, came from him. Without wanting to second-guess that, my thought is to wonder whether = =E2=80=9Cdependable, secure, flexible and extensible=E2=80=9D actually = reduce to the standard security triad of confidentiality, integrity and = availability. "Dependable, flexible and extensible" might legitimately = be considered as =E2=80=9Cavailability=E2=80=9D pre-requisites, = especially in the sense that a system that is insufficietly flexible or = extensible becomes =E2=80=9Cunavailable" if it cannot respond to = changing circumstances or requirements. Does that help? Yrs., Robin > On 4 Feb 2020, at 20:00, model-t-request@iab.org wrote: >=20 > Send Model-t mailing list submissions to > model-t@iab.org >=20 > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > model-t-request@iab.org >=20 > You can reach the person managing the list at > model-t-owner@iab.org >=20 > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Model-t digest..." > Today's Topics: >=20 > 1. Is this relevant to Model-T? (Russ Housley) >=20 > From: Russ Housley > Subject: [Model-t] Is this relevant to Model-T? > Date: 3 February 2020 at 22:37:54 GMT > To: model-t >=20 >=20 > https://www.cs.stevens.edu/~nicolosi/papers/FIA14.pdf >=20 > I was searching for something else when I stumbled across this paper. = In Section 3, the authors are talking about the properties that they = want from the distributed information utility: dependable, secure, = flexible, and extensible. Reading between the lines, they seem to be = saying that a threat is something that prevents achieving one of these = properties. >=20 > Russ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Model-t mailing list > Model-t@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t --Apple-Mail=_7FD5C3C1-2F3E-43F1-8A91-E877A80BA171 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Russ,

Thanks for = spotting this. I expect Ekr will probably have some thoughts about = whether this meaningfully changes the scope of what model-t is = considering, as (to my recollection) most of the comments about scope, = in Singapore, came from him.

Without wanting to second-guess that, = my thought is to wonder whether =E2=80=9Cdependable, secure, flexible = and extensible=E2=80=9D actually reduce to the standard security triad = of confidentiality, integrity and availability. "Dependable, flexible = and extensible" might legitimately be considered as =E2=80=9Cavailability=E2= =80=9D pre-requisites, especially in the sense that a system that is = insufficietly flexible or extensible becomes =E2=80=9Cunavailable" if it = cannot respond to changing circumstances or requirements.

Does that = help?

Yrs.,
Robin

On 4 Feb = 2020, at 20:00, model-t-request@iab.org wrote:

Send Model-t mailing = list submissions to
model-t@iab.org

To subscribe = or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
= https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t
or, = via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
= model-t-request@iab.org

You can = reach the person managing the list at
= model-t-owner@iab.org

When replying, = please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than = "Re: Contents of Model-t digest..."
Today's Topics:

  1. Is this relevant to Model-T? = (Russ Housley)

From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: [Model-t] Is this relevant to Model-T?
Date: 3 = February 2020 at 22:37:54 GMT
To: = model-t = <model-t@iab.org>


https://www.cs.stevens.edu/~nicolosi/papers/FIA14.pdf

I was searching for something else when I = stumbled across this paper.  In Section 3, the authors are talking = about the properties that they want from the distributed information = utility:  dependable, secure, flexible, and extensible. =  Reading between the lines, they seem to be saying that a threat is = something that prevents achieving one of these properties.

Russ




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https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t

= --Apple-Mail=_7FD5C3C1-2F3E-43F1-8A91-E877A80BA171-- --Apple-Mail=_9DD94A3B-46AA-4FEC-A191-9FA0D7BD78FB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEj23cReEsy27C3Qkk0vvfsXu+VHkFAl46/IAACgkQ0vvfsXu+ VHks7w/+OMtjEw9BWQJwOJjg2SSzKbGNiupQiuON8W9pq5w5Zw1Ds0/WK9Yuuy+o 1kTh7I/AQYBgu5ReGxYmJ2hR+BKdTuxK5ZkzTcbZNu8puO1LItz9Bx/JNGu7kvQR W/Wn6JIZcpIEA0oOE3Q+WX6mEV0CEGY2w4jCaA7XWhWaLQc6WlFftjGxJr3RB9yG eDv9YuimB45OqgdTl/NyjRe3Ol4/8oooRixl202aDRl/NFJ/fVbugEJAeqbGFBje zNJ0HiAiy8xB6txzA79xQiauoGrG8lhhDE7mMntgiiDJiiTNWCe5VrHiSfyCM+gN L16ddH+ZFls9XTPa1rIrW25RXeLFNyaS7PVnopfSDbRDmLkefgtT/gvrEA9SI5TB OaSqQTHHqg6/wUEoJNObSDF9/gWM6JH0AWUh97jMoaageC6Q+BK0EljENZ72tJtN CYJB7ldkN7S9gKQwcYyPoL35sJgOR8wl1/HLe2Vg4AzfrX/yIPBcT+trEm3H2Xo7 lsyUtw55r5lBQxfuuzylCMWIe3G8/4PGTsAHoE8b16G0+d86IpL6eXSuYvLgeH+d gg7NoOztLjLdhnJjSwL3vKXI6kVoGfvHeJ0+v/8D3qtu5AOyhCM+BcwEQKY8VaTF LURiWGHBSsa/yG1Z/H4pc3l+QRh3Ww8JeJU4+2kVnHS2FZPQx7U= =jj5a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9DD94A3B-46AA-4FEC-A191-9FA0D7BD78FB-- From nobody Wed Feb 5 12:18:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E69212087D for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2020 12:18:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jDqNvgDljQfn for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2020 12:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 369AE120855 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2020 12:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.119] (p548DC4D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.196.216]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48CXvL2ZXxzybv; Wed, 5 Feb 2020 21:18:38 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <7C14F920-23F4-407B-8BDC-55ABE6902DEB@isoc.org> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 21:18:37 +0100 Cc: "model-t@iab.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 602626717.776799-ae6d975d46fab1951616c9c9231fe5df Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <7C14F920-23F4-407B-8BDC-55ABE6902DEB@isoc.org> To: Robin Wilton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Dependable, secure, flexible and extensible X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2020 20:18:43 -0000 On 2020-02-05, at 18:33, Robin Wilton wrote: >=20 > "Dependable, flexible and extensible" might legitimately be = considered as =E2=80=9Cavailability=E2=80=9D pre-requisites, It=E2=80=99s the other way around, availability is a component of = dependability. (A system may be available, but not doing the right thing, which makes = it less dependable.) Flexible (capable of doing things that were not expected by the = designer) and extensible (enabling designing in things that were = previously not expected by the designer) are certainly on the =E2=80=9Cdo = the right thing=E2=80=9D side as well. Dependability may require accountability, including third-party = verifiability, in addition to the properties in the CIA triad. 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_F977C1C8-0407-4CAC-9541-741410300D50"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 852e385c-1108-4674-49f5-08d7ab04914e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Feb 2020 13:00:40.0001 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Gfek95puQdWmh7vUKftIGNLdr5v6tR69wlRvBSUIRVO7v8xzwh7aCVZh/fO6IFrL X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4867 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Dependable, secure, flexible and extensible X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 13:00:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F977C1C8-0407-4CAC-9541-741410300D50 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Vielen Dank, Carsten - good thinking. In which case, returning to Russ=E2=80=99 initial note and the question = of scope: it seems to me to be appropriate for the threat model to = include factors that are not *security* factors (in the sense of factors = that deliver confidentiality, integrity and availability). Now that I = think about it a bit more: the CIA triad is usually applied to data = rather than systems - and of course the confidentiality, integrity and = availability of data depend on much more than the security of the system = (application integrity, system integrity, system management, etc=E2=80=A6)= . Thanks again - Robin > On 5 Feb 2020, at 20:18, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2020-02-05, at 18:33, Robin Wilton wrote: >>=20 >> "Dependable, flexible and extensible" might legitimately be = considered as =E2=80=9Cavailability=E2=80=9D pre-requisites, >=20 > It=E2=80=99s the other way around, availability is a component of = dependability. > (A system may be available, but not doing the right thing, which makes = it less dependable.) >=20 > Flexible (capable of doing things that were not expected by the = designer) and extensible (enabling designing in things that were = previously not expected by the designer) are certainly on the =E2=80=9Cdo = the right thing=E2=80=9D side as well. >=20 > Dependability may require accountability, including third-party = verifiability, in addition to the properties in the CIA triad. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 --Apple-Mail=_F977C1C8-0407-4CAC-9541-741410300D50 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="aKLC7Ln9WFAWR9h3OkOWJibFm25wbF0jH" Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] updated draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 15:34:15 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --aKLC7Ln9WFAWR9h3OkOWJibFm25wbF0jH Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Y9t35rud01yKegGqncAewuY9L0as4PCud"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "model-t@iab.org" Message-ID: Subject: updated draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t --Y9t35rud01yKegGqncAewuY9L0as4PCud Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------41B32CF6FF97FB0A34596DA0" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------41B32CF6FF97FB0A34596DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, As promised, Jari and I have done some updates to our draft. [1] Mostly editorial and re-organising text and there's still lots and lots more work to be done but any and all comments welcome as always. Cheers, S. [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t/ --------------41B32CF6FF97FB0A34596DA0 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t 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SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U1GH60KLLFRq for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 07:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6F4C120997 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 07:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A256BE4C for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:36:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPRcE5N9xubd for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:36:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (unknown [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2CFD8BE47 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:36:00 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1581003360; bh=3TuZhKGsk33oL7/VZwN7tzqELBaLWlOpvGn7TRIV2FQ=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=n2p91ddv6u8fi6vxU+L73Ekt5t5lX+XGj8UXC669vnNvwZ0MlpiMkPEo2nfMyqolq cURdrjTpIufFgJPEzCTa0VXra5rrPfXdO5WKjO75qSw4B20rDW+u8pV9lQze97aT/j GbhuvhDs/Kwg4JNF81x920ienpnLBrpHgIb3BEM8= From: Stephen Farrell To: "model-t@iab.org" References: <2616f05c-eb3f-6d7f-73fb-ac45031ff910@cs.tcd.ie> Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU 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Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2616f05c-eb3f-6d7f-73fb-ac45031ff910@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="QNxeHzcUGwfemccGnJ6fx5WXrLtwd8sh3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] model-t webex chat - Friday Feb 14th 1600 UTC X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 15:36:05 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --QNxeHzcUGwfemccGnJ6fx5WXrLtwd8sh3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PensTuwKJaW9i0VdYCTaRS0alJC4vnU4D"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "model-t@iab.org" Message-ID: <8b9abb22-5b97-3cc7-72b0-280f4d25fc60@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: model-t webex chat - Friday Feb 14th 1600 UTC References: <2616f05c-eb3f-6d7f-73fb-ac45031ff910@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <2616f05c-eb3f-6d7f-73fb-ac45031ff910@cs.tcd.ie> --PensTuwKJaW9i0VdYCTaRS0alJC4vnU4D Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F386E54CADEF1A5876999168" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F386E54CADEF1A5876999168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reminder - if you'd like an agenda slot please do propose one! Thanks, S. On 03/02/2020 13:21, Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > We had agreed to have a voice chat on Feb 14th at > 1600 UTC. I've scheduled 2 hours but hopefully an > hour will be enough. Webex details for that are > below. Any issues, just mail me. >=20 > (As I'm a co-chair of the IETF lake WG, I used that > webex account to schedule the meeting, so don't be > confused if you see "IETF lake WG" somewhere:-) >=20 > In terms of agenda, I guess we'll want to chat > about the draft programme charter [1] that Jari > sent out (and the ensuing discussion). >=20 > Jari and I have also done some more work on our > draft and hope to post an update to that this week. > If we get that done we'll likely suggest it as > another agenda item. If people with other relevant > drafts would like a slot to chat about those, please > let us know offlist or in reply to this and we'll be > happy to add those to the agenda. If anyone would like > to suggest other agenda items, those are also welcome. >=20 > In any case, please suggest any agenda items this week > so we can finalise the agenda say by next Monday (Feb > 10th). >=20 > If anyone wants to use slides, please send me a pdf > ahead of time (say by Feb 12th) so we can make those > accessible for meeting participants. >=20 > Cheers, > S. >=20 > [1] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/model-t/xcYqYpfHPzjxvjge1W6IVN8bn= DU >=20 > JOIN WEBEX MEETING > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm82d465ac757384fd12c9cac951c34= 026 > Meeting number (access code): 642 596 504 >=20 > Host key: 775365 >=20 > Meeting password: 6G2Dq83x >=20 >=20 >=20 > JOIN BY PHONE > 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) > Tap here to call (mobile phones only, hosts not supported): > tel:%2B1-650-479-3208,,*01*642596504%23%23*01* > 1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada) > Tap here to call (mobile phones only, hosts not supported): > tel:1-877-668-4493,,*01*642596504%23%23*01* >=20 > Global call-in numbers > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/globalcallin.php?MTID=3Dmde5d8cd5b3dcc78b01= 7e4951dee69259 >=20 > Toll-free calling restrictions > https://www.webex.com/pdf/tollfree_restrictions.pdf >=20 >=20 > JOIN FROM A VIDEO SYSTEM OR APPLICATION > Dial sip:642596504@ietf.webex.com > You can also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number. >=20 >=20 > Join using Microsoft Lync or Microsoft Skype for Business > Dial sip:642596504.ietf@lync.webex.com >=20 >=20 >=20 > Can't join the meeting? Contact support here: > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/mc >=20 >=20 > IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please note that this Webex service allows audio and > other information sent during the session to be recorded, which may be > discoverable in a legal matter. You should inform all meeting attendees= > prior to recording if you intend to record the meeting. >=20 >=20 --------------F386E54CADEF1A5876999168 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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6S4b/BrFDFtdMItpUYfCfvWCYg1nHgpy3YTF7xqwJcFWHx6sMODPl2mI1APdqHJL fLFWQ4WaeryI4hHI/1jg8fvfpHL7HV9QB2x8Xg9PQOYb1+n9QKZ9ugXnTuRg7csp W8w24pm9RxgzSniDftDJ2sH5jUojIYoBVMbJ4EI7lR9JAX7WF+FyRSH8Eohh9wib 0kgJqtCJvcLQb4Dk9k9mM0qa4enG2sUqaQr7lAqCYpVtHh8inNVQw3wv+E/YQTT0 7vk0Vqr96CCQe+EUvQTine9wE6KIpdRSps+wcJKHSPWFGwy2c/leYrud+04rc6PF 7V/Vz5Jg7f9IOLBtfKIdI+2YoImWujMkQcAlDQ2a+l7jij/Fh6XoaqpzKR63swMt UWRzT70wr9YtenyVgXIZvv2qk3Qv/bvz3xFC55FhgbtCZrbKNhA= =H7Mu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --QNxeHzcUGwfemccGnJ6fx5WXrLtwd8sh3-- From nobody Thu Feb 13 05:18:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D54491200CD for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 05:18:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZA09xa5Sh-ca for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 05:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A531200B4 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 05:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C84D76601CD; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:18:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lWYjrSO9Zd1d; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:18:03 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E78006600CA; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:18:03 +0200 (EET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Jari Arkko In-Reply-To: <2616f05c-eb3f-6d7f-73fb-ac45031ff910@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:17:50 +0200 Cc: "model-t@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <2616f05c-eb3f-6d7f-73fb-ac45031ff910@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] model-t webex chat - Friday Feb 14th 1600 UTC X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:18:08 -0000 How about this for agenda for tomorrow? 1. Introduction (Stephen) 2. Getting organised as an IAB program (Jari) 3. Technical discussion (all) - analysis of threats - recommendations for threat model update - other issues - draft updates o draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-02 (Stephen) 4. Any other business Jari From nobody Thu Feb 13 11:30:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@iab.org Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56DE41201AA; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:30:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: avezza@amsl.com, model-t-chairs@ietf.org, model-t@iab.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158162225631.20645.6682503143514671057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:30:56 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] model-t - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 19:30:56 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Amy K. Vezza, on behalf of the model-t working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Internet Threat Model Area Name: None Session Requester: Amy Vezza Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 30 Conflicts to Avoid: Technology Overlap: ace acme cose curdle dots emu i2nsf ipsecme kitten lake lamps mile mls oauth rats sacm secdispatch saag secevent suit teep tls tokbind trans txauth privacypass People who must be present: Stephen Farrell Jari Arkko Resources Requested: Special Requests: Wiki mentioned both 1 or 1.5 hours. Possibly could shrink to 1 hour if need be? --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Feb 14 04:45:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56635120043 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 04:45:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ibzUsBZKimCY for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 04:45:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCDDC120827 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 04:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DB73BE39; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:45:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zi2Bk1CBpbQb; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:45:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (unknown [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 42A82BE2F; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:45:17 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1581684317; bh=vEXOBxks18tIChuvosM74x5D+jfhesk07QzHs8btNOM=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=DoY9NeoXCfrSEa2cxwNP15cNjvz0Lm5UATpRJSvq+CDlH9D9dNoSCcIebFJQ6YvM7 5OkfzyFREgwG092Y6aPmcYyWdpW4kyRAD4Du8Z9GIlqllzPKTPY0p8aV91rfW7qnfm na2hHH+cJk5TacYxEvcrareSWuypALpTaqt3IYbg= To: Jari Arkko Cc: "model-t@iab.org" References: <2616f05c-eb3f-6d7f-73fb-ac45031ff910@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <53bbb466-4c68-6329-1540-167f04ae6060@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:45:15 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Prk1mCEH4sYqiEHUmoIvWCUv83MiqeRF4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] model-t webex chat - Friday Feb 14th 1600 UTC X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:45:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Prk1mCEH4sYqiEHUmoIvWCUv83MiqeRF4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Qq7w8SFz9BmnaUAq0SkFo6XsK0ebhh1SO"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Jari Arkko Cc: "model-t@iab.org" Message-ID: <53bbb466-4c68-6329-1540-167f04ae6060@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Model-t] model-t webex chat - Friday Feb 14th 1600 UTC References: <2616f05c-eb3f-6d7f-73fb-ac45031ff910@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --Qq7w8SFz9BmnaUAq0SkFo6XsK0ebhh1SO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BAA93A28816B1BB46A0BE2A8" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BAA93A28816B1BB46A0BE2A8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, That agenda seems fine. We can agenda-bash on the call as needed. We can use this etherpad [1] for notes. If someone's willing to help take notes, that'd be great. Cheers, S. [1] https://etherpad.ietf.org/p/model-t-valentinessday On 13/02/2020 13:17, Jari Arkko wrote: > How about this for agenda for tomorrow? >=20 > 1. Introduction (Stephen) > 2. Getting organised as an IAB program (Jari) > 3. Technical discussion (all) > - analysis of threats > - recommendations for threat model update > - other issues > - draft updates > o draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-02 (Stephen) > 4. 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autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vhOp-NpKuhFK for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 07:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5108812008A for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 07:30:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 703F16601DA for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:30:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q7-ygy07s84K for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:30:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 625326600A8 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:30:50 +0200 (EET) From: Jari Arkko Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_560A7EAA-C3C7-435B-B459-CE2C81A1C9D2" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:30:38 +0200 To: model-t@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Materials for tonight's call X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:31:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_560A7EAA-C3C7-435B-B459-CE2C81A1C9D2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Our main discussion item will be around drafts and people=E2=80=99s = thoughts and issues. But for the other part, administrative, agenda, and = organisation, there are a couple of slides: For the drafts that we know of: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-02 = = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lazanski-smart-users-internet-00= .txt = See also some other work that=E2=80=99s related but maybe not directly = on point in the references of the above two drafts. Other contributions = & discussions of your thoughts are welcome! Jari & Stephen --Apple-Mail=_560A7EAA-C3C7-435B-B459-CE2C81A1C9D2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AF046C1D-4915-44BD-89FF-E5E6D4CF6C64" --Apple-Mail=_AF046C1D-4915-44BD-89FF-E5E6D4CF6C64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Our main discussion item will be around drafts and people=E2=80= =99s thoughts and issues. But for the other part, administrative, = agenda, and organisation, there are a couple of slides:
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For the drafts that we know of:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-02=
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lazanski-smart-users-= internet-00.txt

See also some other work that=E2=80=99s related but maybe not = directly on point in the references of the above two drafts. Other = contributions & discussions of your thoughts are welcome!

Jari & = Stephen

= --Apple-Mail=_AF046C1D-4915-44BD-89FF-E5E6D4CF6C64-- --Apple-Mail=_560A7EAA-C3C7-435B-B459-CE2C81A1C9D2-- From nobody Fri Feb 14 08:01:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C1B31208A1 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:01:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CfSXPF6tV9Vs for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D8F12085C for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:00:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FDFA6601DA for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:00:53 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JuGd2m0gliwL for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:00:52 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C9F16600C4 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:00:52 +0200 (EET) From: Jari Arkko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: <81A6066A-AEA0-4AD7-B8D2-5C652F568734@piuha.net> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:00:41 +0200 To: model-t@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Possible 3552 changes X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:01:21 -0000 Working backwards for a bit, I wanted to take a look of the possible = options we have for an eventual update of RFC 3552. I was able to = identify three possible approaches to these changes. See below for = them. Do people have a feel of what kind of eventual update style would = be desirable? The exact wordings below are examples, but there seems to = be possibilities to do a very minimal change and a very large, lengthy = guideline change. OPTION 1. Simple For instance, ddraft-arkko-farrell-model-t-02 section 6 suggests this: OLD: In general, we assume that the end-systems engaging in a protocol exchange have not themselves been compromised. Protecting against an attack when one of the end-systems has been compromised is extraordinarily difficult. It is, however, possible to design protocols which minimize the extent of the damage done under these circumstances. NEW: In general, we assume that the end-system engaging in a protocol exchange has not itself been compromised. Protecting against an attack of a protocol implementation itself is extraordinarily difficult. It is, however, possible to design protocols which minimize the extent of the damage done when the other parties in a protocol become compromised or do not act in the best interests the end-system implementing a protocol. ---- OPTION 2. Adding more material about endpoints and core issues In draft-arkko-farrell-model-t-02 this is also in section 6. NEW: The design of any Internet technology should start from an understanding of the participants in a system, their roles, and the extent to which they should have access to information and ability to control other participants. NEW: 3.x. Other endpoint compromise In this attack, the other endpoints in the protocol become compromised. As a result, they can, for instance, misuse any information that the end-system implementing a protocol has sent to the compromised endpoint. ---- OPTION 3. Adding even more material about guidelines, areas of concern, recommendations of techniques to use. We have not seen proposals for this yet at least. 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: sfnN8obceU1ZkNwutWEllWXyYXnlb2Bu49giJd+/3LdRpy1/2YsOEPJ86A5PzhveWGD7EmSUQehC62byBJ+XhOmQMlFdlhuCx566KcO+e1T9rrfw7AC3V0jWTTLaRV2zfWGkt942YFHQdX4+xFPDy7zgrjXl8NWQOMCIsuJA1V4Nq2oMWGzchV6L+0Bm0A3r8yeGZ+croam3aXykCsUAlmDfvk+nW9BlJt69f2+Nb8SrNaMz0akM8EvOJDrh9YcUKrj8is++mBmIJTD+OZHjm2+Z0KwM3Fh5/hHyldxxFSqwG6MS1gw/KShr24c3fHpaumfp8hHRUDl6EiXfeRguZgWO7uqjW1ROxQt0Q1bC32h/XgLLPq+WL/JNoq9M17heLmfQSRiWM49xyvf+aE+wH79S0hdGliSMerM6HW+WwFVkaOnvDtNAf4axY6uVNvOe4blL2aCw5C/AzOm0zAXLpaJ/Xy9BTlbEYwfQ2hYLiAI40Zz+H/06a341FsMsAghtuJXhvMy/W5hyYl7uFjAoAmUascCtrI7LNu8ITYEOxOApZpvjJnCuUR3BLQ9RRhfY x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 74iTq2gsBeBeHE436iNME/t0kXDUjlcAbr0n+x5eUh6JtKhhwdl0UAb9TbbUownLXNAbV125RHgj/t8ztSx0MiCkALHVbvnEP9/q5WGZvNtyZjTobGd/VdH+E9cOEPzavrIBW6/eRTUw8+3j7IlKfQ== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C60204CA-3788-4ABC-A812-E195F700DBDF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4c8eef68-d58b-45d7-239e-08d7b176b629 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Feb 2020 17:52:51.4832 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 4iTJxdQ51Rmvn+IF2ewJuE4ufrYrrcG/wdusBD4TdOT+sA23TV335voVXE43RK+x X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4978 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] (meta) Trust, and threat vs vulnerability models X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:53:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C60204CA-3788-4ABC-A812-E195F700DBDF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C5D8A7E0-5602-442B-AE4C-A14A6E52592B" --Apple-Mail=_C5D8A7E0-5602-442B-AE4C-A14A6E52592B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 As promised, here's an attempt to capture what I think we were edging = towards in the exchange between me and Dirk. I=E2=80=99m hoping this = will help us get to consensus about the scope and purpose of what the = group will work on. I appreciate the misgivings EKR expressed about scope, and about whether = we are actually talking about anything new, here. I think that may be an = inevitable consequence of framing this as a =E2=80=9Cthreat=E2=80=9D = model as opposed to a vulnerability model. The former, in principle, is = a non-finite list, whereas the latter can be finite... so we may be = talking about a never-ending list of emerging threats, but they might = all target existing vulnerabilities which are known, understood and = mitigated already. Maybe the most useful goal of this group is to work = out the fastest and most reliable way of telling whether or not that is = the case. So, we might formulate a question like this: "does a shift towards = information-centric networking change the reasons why I should or should = not trust the network to behave as I expect?" If you change the things I rely on when I'm making a trust (or security) = decision, you change the threat model. So, for instance, I used to trust = intermediary network nodes because they were dumb, and therefore didn't = expose a useful attack surface, but now those network nodes are doing = more processing, are participating in an ICN reputation scheme, and = could potentially be gamed to my detriment. They embody vulnerabilities = they didn=E2=80=99t embody before, but which might be known and = understood in other contexts. The ways in which an adversary might = exploit the intermediate nodes has changed, and I should no longer rely = on the reasons I used to rely on, when judging whether those nodes will = behave as I (still) expect them to. So then, in practical terms, we might want RFC authors to think as = follows: - Nodes of type x used to be dumb, but are now functionally rich; this = has increased their attack surface, but the resulting vulnerabilities = are still: - data exfiltration - alteration of data in motion - denial of service =E2=80=A6 and we already have design patterns for mitigating those = vulnerabilities from other comparable use cases=E2=80=A6 Or=E2=80=A6 - Nodes of type x used to be dumb, but are now functionally rich and = participate in reputation schemes that can be gamed so as to modify the = network's behaviour; this gives rise to a new vulnerability: - manipulation of service levels =E2=80=A6 which we have not had to mitigate before, but which could be = mitigated by doing z. I hope this is useful, Yrs., Robin > On 14 Feb 2020, at 15:31, model-t-request@iab.org wrote: >=20 > Send Model-t mailing list submissions to > model-t@iab.org >=20 > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > model-t-request@iab.org >=20 > You can reach the person managing the list at > model-t-owner@iab.org >=20 > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Model-t digest..." > Today's Topics: >=20 > 1. Re: model-t webex chat - Friday Feb 14th 1600 UTC > (Stephen Farrell) > 2. Materials for tonight's call (Jari Arkko) >=20 > From: Stephen Farrell > Subject: Re: [Model-t] model-t webex chat - Friday Feb 14th 1600 UTC > Date: 14 February 2020 at 12:45:15 GMT > To: Jari Arkko > Cc: "model-t@iab.org" >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > That agenda seems fine. We can agenda-bash on > the call as needed. >=20 > We can use this etherpad [1] for notes. If > someone's willing to help take notes, that'd > be great. >=20 > Cheers, > S. >=20 > [1] https://etherpad.ietf.org/p/model-t-valentinessday >=20 > On 13/02/2020 13:17, Jari Arkko wrote: >> How about this for agenda for tomorrow? >>=20 >> 1. Introduction (Stephen) >> 2. Getting organised as an IAB program (Jari) >> 3. Technical discussion (all) >> - analysis of threats >> - recommendations for threat model update >> - other issues >> - draft updates >> o draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-02 (Stephen) >> 4. Any other business >>=20 >> Jari >>=20 > <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc> >=20 >=20 > From: Jari Arkko > Subject: [Model-t] Materials for tonight's call > Date: 14 February 2020 at 15:30:38 GMT > To: "model-t@iab.org" >=20 >=20 > Our main discussion item will be around drafts and people=E2=80=99s = thoughts and issues. But for the other part, administrative, agenda, and = organisation, there are a couple of slides: >=20 >=20 > For the drafts that we know of: >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-02 = > = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lazanski-smart-users-internet-00= .txt = >=20 > See also some other work that=E2=80=99s related but maybe not directly = on point in the references of the above two drafts. Other contributions = & discussions of your thoughts are welcome! >=20 > Jari & Stephen >=20 > >=20 > Model-t mailing list > Model-t@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t --Apple-Mail=_C5D8A7E0-5602-442B-AE4C-A14A6E52592B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 As = promised, here's an attempt to capture what I think we were edging = towards in the exchange between me and Dirk. I=E2=80=99m hoping this = will help us get to consensus about the scope and purpose of what the = group will work on.

I= appreciate the misgivings EKR expressed about scope, and about whether = we are actually talking about anything new, here. I think that may be an = inevitable consequence of framing this as a =E2=80=9Cthreat=E2=80=9D = model as opposed to a = vulnerability model. The former, in principle, is a non-finite list, = whereas the latter can be finite... so we may be talking about a = never-ending list of emerging threats, but they might all target existing vulnerabilities which are known, understood and = mitigated already. Maybe the most useful goal of this group is to work = out the fastest and most reliable way of telling whether or not that is = the case. 

So, we might formulate a = question like this: "does a shift towards information-centric networking = change the reasons why I should or should not trust the network to = behave as I expect?" 

If you change the things I rely on when = I'm making a trust (or security) decision, you change the threat = model. So, for instance, I used to trust intermediary network nodes = because they were dumb, and therefore didn't expose a useful attack = surface, but now those network nodes are doing more = processing, are participating in an ICN reputation scheme, and could = potentially be gamed to my detriment. They embody vulnerabilities they = didn=E2=80=99t embody before, but which might be known and understood in = other contexts. The ways in which an adversary might exploit = the intermediate nodes has changed, and I should no longer rely on = the reasons I used to rely on, when judging whether those nodes will = behave as I (still) expect them to.

So = then, in practical terms, we might want RFC authors to think as = follows:

- = Nodes of type x used to be dumb, but are now functionally rich; this has = increased their attack surface, but the resulting vulnerabilities are = still:
- data exfiltration
= - alteration of data in motion
- denial = of service
=E2=80=A6 and we already have design = patterns for mitigating those vulnerabilities from other comparable use = cases=E2=80=A6

Or=E2=80=A6

 - Nodes of type x used to be dumb, but are now = functionally rich and participate in reputation schemes that can be = gamed so as to modify the network's behaviour; this gives rise to a new = vulnerability:
- manipulation of service = levels
=E2=80=A6 which we have not had to mitigate = before, but which could be mitigated by doing z.

I = hope this is useful,
Yrs.,
Robin



On 14 Feb 2020, at 15:31, model-t-request@iab.org wrote:

Send Model-t mailing = list submissions to
model-t@iab.org

To subscribe = or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
= https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t
or, = via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
= model-t-request@iab.org

You can = reach the person managing the list at
= model-t-owner@iab.org

When replying, = please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than = "Re: Contents of Model-t digest..."
Today's Topics:

  1. Re: model-t webex chat - = Friday Feb 14th 1600 UTC
=      (Stephen Farrell)
=   2. Materials for tonight's call (Jari Arkko)
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Model-t] model-t webex chat - Friday Feb 14th 1600 = UTC
Date: 14= February 2020 at 12:45:15 GMT
To: = Jari Arkko = <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Cc: = "model-t@iab.org" = <model-t@iab.org>



Hiya,

That agenda = seems fine. We can agenda-bash on
the call as needed.

We can use this etherpad [1] for notes. If
someone's willing to help take notes, that'd
be = great.

Cheers,
S.

[1] = https://etherpad.ietf.org/p/model-t-valentinessday

On 13/02/2020 13:17, Jari Arkko wrote:
How about this for = agenda for tomorrow?

1. Introduction = (Stephen)
2. Getting organised as an IAB program (Jari)
3. Technical discussion (all)
=    - analysis of threats
=    - recommendations for threat model update
=    - other issues
   - = draft updates
     o =   draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-02 (Stephen)
4.= Any other business

Jari

<0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc= >


From: = Jari Arkko = <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Subject: = [Model-t] = Materials for tonight's call
Date: = 14 February 2020 at 15:30:38 = GMT
To: = "model-t@iab.org" = <model-t@iab.org>


Our main discussion item = will be around drafts and people=E2=80=99s thoughts and issues. But for = the other part, administrative, agenda, and organisation, there are a = couple of slides:


For the drafts that we know of:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-02=
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lazanski-smart-users-= internet-00.txt

See also some other work that=E2=80=99s related but = maybe not directly on point in the references of the above two drafts. = Other contributions & discussions of your thoughts are = welcome!

Jari & Stephen

= <model-t-org.pdf>

Model-t = mailing list
Model-t@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t

= --Apple-Mail=_C5D8A7E0-5602-442B-AE4C-A14A6E52592B-- --Apple-Mail=_C60204CA-3788-4ABC-A812-E195F700DBDF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEj23cReEsy27C3Qkk0vvfsXu+VHkFAl5G3nIACgkQ0vvfsXu+ VHlhkhAApXw2cO9Cq0tMHaTsAGcgjaSrlyF0Pmuo9KnMmOvHf1tCTEJokXkq4WIB ywKI8neREj7nX+0zUgOMVpfN3ZDHwkNhiQlQYdJaJFqJBrhMpPF/vrGEQqOdpJD5 UuaEwyij6NTEYdz/dkyr18q3S50noyyPEUFExPUsWezwJkIn/2yqmUkxyRwJSutX vwTqirsg8NSe35x8Prqa2N7k7aHJe2dmahDOb4BFiX92AKsKC4WcSpkr1SEk9k8F aQDvcXN8EozNo7F58hiO+M/lIMndGDiKhp47K1SLOmDoUhJb/QIs60Yps3J2rHyJ 1NUueVWortfbChr9UBc26uajvREVBcRHWq8GFv/kt9PMQcZiWr9hJLXHe4Ex8NoW UkcxM5H88Z3srYYWHnFBhvq5fm2yxs9ByALtUbVOYb+BUoJgJ7hMvwImhQR+rJtv OvfUqlhrA0u3zkfsXjZEH4eSVO/oIywFMf9S+rK4K+KP40AxyGNSH/gJU7PxPohh 2GpAem9bB5p1ReorXRteBct1NHaXyWuHdsSksspWx8X3UIXQYos1mp6FMzRGODwW bKGvmn3jxZA0JMBytwjZiRdSC4SoO8F2+73W4NMDB72a0Sw0t2hqCcmkIPeolWtZ BxBiHFA1giKCZlNiY4fqUobtSWQJMT5BPTz9QLRNp0Bk2BfQHRM= =2q/V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C60204CA-3788-4ABC-A812-E195F700DBDF-- From nobody Fri Feb 14 12:18:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1001E120B8B for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2571A4DB-05F7-477D-A244-B53193C15BD9@isoc.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cWnfWUtOgtfKqKjvTuCUjhVucoauDEnOe" Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] ICN as an example (was: Re: (meta) Trust, and threat vs vulnerability models) X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:18:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --cWnfWUtOgtfKqKjvTuCUjhVucoauDEnOe Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="s9HpuWYf76QO0tzIxP2J7kNAACBH7PxUt"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Robin Wilton , "model-t@iab.org" Message-ID: <894281a0-6319-3967-8482-2da860bf2963@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: ICN as an example (was: Re: [Model-t] (meta) Trust, and threat vs vulnerability models) References: <2571A4DB-05F7-477D-A244-B53193C15BD9@isoc.org> In-Reply-To: <2571A4DB-05F7-477D-A244-B53193C15BD9@isoc.org> --s9HpuWYf76QO0tzIxP2J7kNAACBH7PxUt Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------787EA3FB0D2DDA7E5C0368B5" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------787EA3FB0D2DDA7E5C0368B5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robin, I'm not sure I'm following your argument TBH, but that might be because I think the answer to: On 14/02/2020 17:52, Robin Wilton wrote: > "does a shift towards information-centric networking change the > reasons why I should or should not trust the network to behave as I > expect?" =2E..is fairly straightforwardly a "no." Without straying too far into ICN weeds (but I am a bit, hence the change to the subject line:-), ICN has no real conception of confidentiality nor access control that doesn't bring it right back to host-based networking (in terms of risks). I guess in future someone might figure out "pure" ICN-oriented solutions for such services, but afaik, they've not. I think the same is also still true for how any PKI might be used to support ICN, so even the signed-data doesn't really change many of the risks that much. So I'm not clear that consideration of ICN will be that enlightening for us. 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1FjUSx3JtXVXAY22CKqKwY6LWSmPZ8OVrQqlR+pa6yORZZkrG+JA/S4h5v3zN0Dr m8WR6cuhhZqQh0V6N3FP7ojAcECvKnwhSaGKHpGPqvsq1OLHhKj5rFEi2a8dHuth MJSN3u4vjd4V8rYBP/drKKAx3wU5XPgWSjClyHibEOPJCtMWzAWTRdofEOiFM55i 7gbSQHIEirRpwC9urCsUCuwhNm748B5VOKAyfznF87rEfOQUmvTORELPJlO80C00 z1jo1thYYV8ElyBHJ8CKJfKFXu/VBBCFwnWipIdnNdJqOYkymiY= =qY9A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cWnfWUtOgtfKqKjvTuCUjhVucoauDEnOe-- From nobody Fri Feb 14 12:23:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707CF12022C for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:23:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UXsH3RgbCk9G for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:23:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0767120A99 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 01EKNDm8006923 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:23:15 -0500 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:23:13 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Robin Wilton , "model-t@iab.org" Message-ID: <20200214202313.GH43385@kduck.mit.edu> References: <2571A4DB-05F7-477D-A244-B53193C15BD9@isoc.org> <894281a0-6319-3967-8482-2da860bf2963@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <894281a0-6319-3967-8482-2da860bf2963@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] ICN as an example (was: Re: (meta) Trust, and threat vs vulnerability models) X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:23:26 -0000 On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 08:18:28PM +0000, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hi Robin, > > I'm not sure I'm following your argument TBH, but that > might be because I think the answer to: > > On 14/02/2020 17:52, Robin Wilton wrote: > > "does a shift towards information-centric networking change the > > reasons why I should or should not trust the network to behave as I > > expect?" > > ...is fairly straightforwardly a "no." > > Without straying too far into ICN weeds (but I am a bit, > hence the change to the subject line:-), ICN has no real > conception of confidentiality nor access control that > doesn't bring it right back to host-based networking (in > terms of risks). I guess in future someone might figure > out "pure" ICN-oriented solutions for such services, but > afaik, they've not. I think the same is also still true > for how any PKI might be used to support ICN, so even > the signed-data doesn't really change many of the risks > that much. > > So I'm not clear that consideration of ICN will be that > enlightening for us. I'm not super-versed in ICN, but it seems like it would be more of an object security model than a connection-oriented one, so it might become hard to know that you have received the latest information of a given kind. -Ben From nobody Sun Feb 16 03:37:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B27BF12004E for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 03:37:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oqXt_RSl_5Gf for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 03:37:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051E3120047 for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 03:37:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C30C6601C4 for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 13:37:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YG2MB6K9CPlB for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 13:37:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FC15660134 for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 13:37:11 +0200 (EET) From: Jari Arkko Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_95778109-99B5-4E87-BE0D-E5BEB95751C7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: <5AE88B6D-ED13-4AD9-813D-89D23D7D3336@piuha.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 12:36:56 +0100 To: model-t@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Notes from the Feb 14 call X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 11:37:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_95778109-99B5-4E87-BE0D-E5BEB95751C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Ted for taking notes. I=E2=80=99ve converted them to markdown and = uploaded them here: = https://github.com/intarchboard/model-t/blob/master/notes/notes-2020-02-14= .md = Additions, corrections, etc. are welcome! Jari --Apple-Mail=_95778109-99B5-4E87-BE0D-E5BEB95751C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Thanks Ted for taking notes. I=E2=80=99ve = converted them to markdown and uploaded them here: https://github.com/intarchboard/model-t/blob/master/notes/notes= -2020-02-14.md

Additions, corrections, etc. are welcome!

Jari

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boundary="_000_BL0PR06MB4772B78C2E158D31D1A62571BF160BL0PR06MB4772namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 006fac7f-87d4-4746-5d5c-08d7b3a6614e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Feb 2020 12:39:07.4453 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 7ScSHp4rHLOJOHxhGTnOLTMBsUk6J6s0hjzrfe/Yzth4c2IubHqdTfX33BXbPb/4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB5074 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] ICN as an example (was: Re: (meta) Trust, and threat vs vulnerability models) X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 12:39:19 -0000 --_000_BL0PR06MB4772B78C2E158D31D1A62571BF160BL0PR06MB4772namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, both... just for clarity, my question/point wasn=92t about ICN per = se. It was an attempt to find a (maybe poor) example of an innovation that chan= ges the function of network nodes, increases the attack surface, and theref= ore potentially invalidates some of the reasons why I might previously have= trusted the network to behave in a particular way. Here=92s the hypothetical I was trying to explore: maybe I previously trust= ed intermediate nodes not to prioritise other users=92 traffic over mine, b= ecause those nodes were too dumb to do so. However, let=92s suppose that an= intermediate node now starts to make =93reputational=94 judgements about t= he behaviour of other nodes, and starts to prioritise particular routes for= some kinds of traffic. That potentially creates a situation in which an ad= versary could manipulate the =93reputation=94 data so as to influence the n= ode=92s decisions about prioritisation, in ways that weren=92t previously a= n option. Like I say, this isn=92t so much about whether ICN makes that possible (tho= ugh I=92ve heard something similar described as an R&D idea); it=92s about = whether increased functionality at intermediate nodes (as opposed to endpoi= nts) materially changes the threat model. Hope this helps, Robin ________________________________ From: Benjamin Kaduk Sent: Friday, February 14, 2020 8:23:13 PM To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Robin Wilton ; model-t@iab.org Subject: Re: [Model-t] ICN as an example (was: Re: (meta) Trust, and threat= vs vulnerability models) On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 08:18:28PM +0000, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hi Robin, > > I'm not sure I'm following your argument TBH, but that > might be because I think the answer to: > > On 14/02/2020 17:52, Robin Wilton wrote: > > "does a shift towards information-centric networking change the > > reasons why I should or should not trust the network to behave as I > > expect?" > > ...is fairly straightforwardly a "no." > > Without straying too far into ICN weeds (but I am a bit, > hence the change to the subject line:-), ICN has no real > conception of confidentiality nor access control that > doesn't bring it right back to host-based networking (in > terms of risks). I guess in future someone might figure > out "pure" ICN-oriented solutions for such services, but > afaik, they've not. I think the same is also still true > for how any PKI might be used to support ICN, so even > the signed-data doesn't really change many of the risks > that much. > > So I'm not clear that consideration of ICN will be that > enlightening for us. I'm not super-versed in ICN, but it seems like it would be more of an object security model than a connection-oriented one, so it might become hard to know that you have received the latest information of a given kind. -Ben --_000_BL0PR06MB4772B78C2E158D31D1A62571BF160BL0PR06MB4772namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, both... just for clarity, my question/point wasn=92t about ICN per = se.
It was an attempt to find a (maybe poor) example of an innovation that chan= ges the function of network nodes, increases the attack surface, and theref= ore potentially invalidates some of the reasons why I might previously have= trusted the network to behave in a particular way.

Here=92s the hypothetical I was trying to explore: maybe I previously trust= ed intermediate nodes not to prioritise other users=92 traffic over mine, b= ecause those nodes were too dumb to do so. However, let=92s suppose that an= intermediate node now starts to make =93reputational=94 judgements about the behaviour of other nodes, and star= ts to prioritise particular routes for some kinds of traffic. That potentia= lly creates a situation in which an adversary could manipulate the =93reput= ation=94 data so as to influence the node=92s decisions about prioritisation, in ways that weren=92t previously an optio= n.

Like I say, this isn=92t so much about whether ICN makes that possible (tho= ugh I=92ve heard something similar described as an R&D idea); it=92s ab= out whether increased functionality at intermediate nodes (as opposed to en= dpoints) materially changes the threat model.

Hope this helps,
Robin

From: Benjamin Kaduk <ka= duk@mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2020 8:23:13 PM
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: Robin Wilton <wilton@isoc.org>; model-t@iab.org <model-= t@iab.org>
Subject: Re: [Model-t] ICN as an example (was: Re: (meta) Trust, and= threat vs vulnerability models)
 
On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 08:18:28PM +0000, Step= hen Farrell wrote:
>
> Hi Robin,
>
> I'm not sure I'm following your argument TBH, but that
> might be because I think the answer to:
>
> On 14/02/2020 17:52, Robin Wilton wrote:
> > "does a shift towards information-centric networking change = the
> > reasons why I should or should not trust the network to behave as= I
> > expect?"
>
> ...is fairly straightforwardly a "no."
>
> Without straying too far into ICN weeds (but I am a bit,
> hence the change to the subject line:-), ICN has no real
> conception of confidentiality nor access control that
> doesn't bring it right back to host-based networking (in
> terms of risks). I guess in future someone might figure
> out "pure" ICN-oriented solutions for such services, but
> afaik, they've not. I think the same is also still true
> for how any PKI might be used to support ICN, so even
> the signed-data doesn't really change many of the risks
> that much.
>
> So I'm not clear that consideration of ICN will be that
> enlightening for us.

I'm not super-versed in ICN, but it seems like it would be more of an
object security model than a connection-oriented one, so it might become hard to know that you have received the latest information of a given kind.=

-Ben
--_000_BL0PR06MB4772B78C2E158D31D1A62571BF160BL0PR06MB4772namp_-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:42:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA8771208D2 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:07:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id okogal-AV3xB for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:07:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E8F11208CB for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id y6so19702630lji.0 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:07:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=kVg24dOBfuQDn7Qr2WH2KJ8NE0MKIVaYVGzc9bivBUI=; b=vub6GOe2Le1G0RgXSrI2HIfGbKXyUZwlHHR4uObDkVOWahUSgLXfc9ZCaN4UKY1esh UnnSBxQ69/4m4AG+y5Q7hbpt63QAT7nA0eLpXzdgAYOSRkNl64WRRme2mJuuSGa+k/pZ dOigZ1Wji/mVrv5s2SxU7vt9N2GhNRdSRZ8KJvM3jKGcUddFpKkLMMpPvUxJ3fKi7tFG N8fnGqTqVX+Uc9Ngbr8OENtXELGB0KVb5f1TL7UM1PZHgR53N0rNjz8n0qKCyfnsElxp Hqobu55qwsJwR+BcBIiSGm7KHaOz5A/evL7dOnp0iuZCqbQUzml/xjtQbEQYyTXUVeJS lx0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=kVg24dOBfuQDn7Qr2WH2KJ8NE0MKIVaYVGzc9bivBUI=; b=ZYJz0RcqiTC2OObxWLTSUhbNw0SoHVlw9TrLUGDWSx/iHSeek0dGl5gfvqxdLHUpxv PPx/1V7ddfbyo1u9iFqsW53subYdvfyCon/irfkHl7ZcToiqJdcxs16wKZKUlkOn6CQt D0SXDnMDXebhrg3xbu8y8HSYDKaf872VPNRyLaiMmLsPD4TU+gw9rviN4x3I7k3xNR2H xmz9uB36HnmkkdKZ4B1mnoiDmx13QqcfRlMk/+WDSP0MXw9LSGTOFJLEhSbxZHiVgkAW Q0OeNXUh1oljFXdBoDF9O0SjCvTl7TwomOdtRL0fCkuzdmW4gj6tZacb8f8IN/h+DD2J Ac2g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXpdD7H1FT0aKF6u3zqJYjHG/X1tXkmd08u8lmPq1xuNxHwJO8k JvMfEJBhuPVZl7tPMNJz/dqQmpLRp18c0GABQmgFhSaTYkU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwQuBdYQ43z+t1XO4NlnED3FX9IhtbzUDEtMYCG0JZBa2GQwltVzf4hjmltvobP7ow2kiv3QatXSDsAKBtzuk4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9b12:: with SMTP id u18mr10567058lji.274.1581959250536; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:07:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:06:54 -0800 Message-ID: To: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002dc4eb059ec89722" Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Considerations for modern COMSEC protocol design X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 17:07:39 -0000 --0000000000002dc4eb059ec89722 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As promised... -Ekr and Chris RFC 3552 provides a description of classic issues for the development of communications security protocols. However, in the nearly 20 years since the publication of 3552, the practice of protocol design has moved on to a fair extent. This note sketches some of the considerations that should be considered when designing a communications security protocol that are not covered in detail in 3552. LIMIING TIME SCOPE OF COMPROMISE RFC 3552; Section 3 says: The Internet environment has a fairly well understood threat model. In general, we assume that the end-systems engaging in a protocol exchange have not themselves been compromised. Protecting against an attack when one of the end-systems has been compromised is extraordinarily difficult. It is, however, possible to design protocols which minimize the extent of the damage done under these circumstances. Although this text is technically correct, modern protocol designs such as TLS 1.3 and MLS often try to provide a fair amount of defense against various kinds of temporary compromise. Specifically: - Forward Security: Many protocols are designed so that compromise of an endpoint at time T does not lead to compromise of data transmitted prior to some time T' < T. For instance, if a protocol is based on Diffie-Hellman key establishment, then compromise of the long-term keys does not lead to compromise of traffic sent prior to compromise if the DH ephemerals and traffic keys have been deleted. - Post-Compromise Security: Conversely, if an endpoint is compromised at time T, it is often desirable to have the protocol "self-heal" so that a purely passive adversary cannot access traffic after a certain time T' > T. MLS, for instance, is designed with this property. - Containing Partial Authentication Key Compromise: If an endpoint is stolen and its authentication secret is stolen, then an attacker can impersonate that endpoint. However, there a number of scenarios in which an attacker can obtain use of an authentication key but not the secret itself (see, for instance [0]). It is often desirable to limit the impact of such compromises (for instance, by avoiding unlimited delegation from such keys). - Short-lived keys: Typical TLS certificates last for months or years. There is a trend towards shorter certificate lifetimes so as to minimize risk of exposure in the event of key compromise. Relatedly, delegated credentials are short-lived keys the certificate=E2=80=99s owner has dele= gated for use in TLS. These help reduce private key lifetimes without compromising or sacrificing reliability. FORCING ACTIVE ATTACK RFC 3552; Section 3.2 notes that it is important to consider passive attacks. In general, it is much harder to mount an active attack, both in terms of the capabilities required and the chance of being detected. Another theme in recent IETF protocols design is to build systems which might have limited defense against active attackers but are strong against passive attackers, thus forcing the attacker to go active. Examples include DTLS-SRTP and the trend towards opportunistic security. However, ideally protocols are built with strong defenses against active attackers. One prominent example is QUIC, which takes steps to ensure that off-path connection resets are intractable in practice. TRAFFIC ANALYSIS RFC 3552; Section 3.2.1 describes how the absence of TLS or other transport-layer encryption may lead to obvious confidentiality violations against passive attackers. However, recent trends in traffic analysis indicate encryption alone may be insufficient protection for some types of application data [1]. Encrypted traffic metadata, especially message size, can leak information about the underlying plaintext. DNS queries and responses are particularly at risk given their size distributions. Recent protocols account for this leakage by supporting padding, either generically in the transport protocol (QUIC and TLS), or specifically in the application protocol (EDNS(0) padding option for DNS messages). CONTAINING COMPROMISE OF TRUST POINTS Many protocols are designed to depend on trusted third parties (the WebPKI is perhaps the canonical example); if those trust points misbehave, the security of the protocol can be completely compromised. A number of recent protocols have attempted to reduce the power of those trust points. For instance. Certificate Transparency attempts to ensure that a CA cannot issue valid certificates without publishing them, allowing third parties to detect certain classes of misbehavior by those CA. Similarly, Key Transparency attempts to ensure that (public) keys associated with a given entity are publicly visible and auditable in tamper-proof logs. This allows users of these keys to check them for correctness. In the realm of software, Reproducible Builds and Binary Transparency are intended to allow a user to determine that they have received a valid copy of the binary that matches the auditable source code. Blockchain protocols such as Bitcoin and Ethereum also employ this principle of transparency and are intended to detect misbehavior by members of the network. [0] Jager, T., Schwenk, J., and J. Somorovsky, "On the Security of TLS 1.3 and QUIC Against Weaknesses in PKCS#1 v1.5 Encryption", Proceedings of ACM CCS 2015, DOI 10.1145/2810103.2813657, October 2015, . [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wood-pearg-website-fingerprinting-00 --0000000000002dc4eb059ec89722 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As promised...

-Ekr and Chri= s


RFC 3552 provides a descripti= on of classic issues for the development
of communications security pr= otocols. However, in the nearly 20 years
since the publication of 3552, = the practice of protocol design has
moved on to a fair extent. This note= sketches some of the
considerations that should be considered when desi= gning a communications
security protocol that are not covered in detail = in 3552.

LIMIING TIME SCOPE OF COMPROMISE
RFC 3552; Section 3 say= s:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The Internet environment has a fairly well understoo= d threat model.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In general, we assume that the end-systems = engaging in a protocol
=C2=A0 =C2=A0exchange have not themselves been co= mpromised.=C2=A0 Protecting against an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0attack when one of t= he end-systems has been compromised is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0extraordinarily diff= icult.=C2=A0 It is, however, possible to design
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocols w= hich minimize the extent of the damage done under these
=C2=A0 =C2=A0cir= cumstances.

Although this text is technically correct, modern protoc= ol designs
such as TLS 1.3 and MLS often try to provide a fair amount of= defense
against various kinds of temporary compromise. Specifically:
- Forward Security: Many protocols are designed so that compromise of<= br>=C2=A0 an endpoint at time T does not lead to compromise of data transmi= tted
=C2=A0 prior to some time T' < T. For instance, if a protoco= l is based on
=C2=A0 Diffie-Hellman key establishment, then compromise o= f the long-term
=C2=A0 keys does not lead to compromise of traffic sent = prior to compromise
=C2=A0 if the DH ephemerals and traffic keys have be= en deleted.

- Post-Compromise Security: Conversely, if an endpoint i= s compromised
=C2=A0 at time T, it is often desirable to have the protoc= ol "self-heal"
=C2=A0 so that a purely passive adversary canno= t access traffic after
=C2=A0 a certain time T' > T. MLS, for ins= tance, is designed with this
=C2=A0 property.

- Containing Partia= l Authentication Key Compromise: If an endpoint is
=C2=A0 stolen and its= authentication secret is stolen, then an attacker can
=C2=A0 impersonat= e that endpoint. However, there a number of scenarios in
=C2=A0 which an= attacker can obtain use of an authentication key but not
=C2=A0 the sec= ret itself (see, for instance [0]). It is often desirable to
=C2=A0 limi= t the impact of such compromises (for instance, by avoiding
=C2=A0 unlim= ited delegation from such keys).

- Short-lived keys: Typical TLS cer= tificates last for months or years.
=C2=A0 There is a trend towards shor= ter certificate lifetimes so as to minimize
=C2=A0 risk of exposure in t= he event of key compromise. Relatedly, delegated
=C2=A0 credentials are = short-lived keys the certificate=E2=80=99s owner has delegated
=C2=A0 fo= r use in TLS. These help reduce private key lifetimes without compromising<= br>=C2=A0 or sacrificing reliability.


FORCING ACTIVE ATTACK
R= FC 3552; Section 3.2 notes that it is important to consider passive
atta= cks. In general, it is much harder to mount an active attack, both
in te= rms of the capabilities required and the chance of being
detected. Anoth= er theme in recent IETF protocols design is to build
systems which might= have limited defense against active attackers but
are strong against pa= ssive attackers, thus forcing the attacker to go
active. Examples includ= e DTLS-SRTP and the trend towards opportunistic
security. However, ideal= ly protocols are built with strong defenses
against active attackers. On= e prominent example is QUIC, which takes
steps to ensure that off-path c= onnection resets are intractable in
practice.


TRAFFIC ANALYSI= S
RFC 3552; Section 3.2.1 describes how the absence of TLS or other
t= ransport-layer encryption may lead to obvious confidentiality
violations= against passive attackers. However, recent trends in
traffic analysis i= ndicate encryption alone may be insufficient
protection for some types o= f application data [1]. Encrypted traffic
metadata, especially message s= ize, can leak information about the
underlying plaintext. DNS queries an= d responses are particularly
at risk given their size distributions. Rec= ent protocols account
for this leakage by supporting padding, either gen= erically in the
transport protocol (QUIC and TLS), or specifically in th= e application
protocol (EDNS(0) padding option for DNS messages).

CONTAINING COMPROMISE OF TRUST POINTS
Many protocols are designed t= o depend on trusted third parties (the
WebPKI is perhaps the canonical e= xample); if those trust points
misbehave, the security of the protocol c= an be completely compromised.

A number of recent protocols have atte= mpted to reduce the power of
those trust points. For instance. Certifica= te Transparency attempts to
ensure that a CA cannot issue valid certific= ates without publishing
them, allowing third parties to detect certain c= lasses of misbehavior
by those CA. Similarly, Key Transparency attempts = to ensure that (public)
keys associated with a given entity are publicly= visible and auditable
in tamper-proof logs. This allows users of these = keys to check
them for correctness.

In the realm of software, Rep= roducible Builds and Binary
Transparency are intended to allow a user to= determine that they
have received a valid copy of the binary that match= es the auditable
source code. Blockchain protocols such as Bitcoin and E= thereum also
employ this principle of transparency and are intended to d= etect
misbehavior by members of the network.



[0] Jager, T= ., Schwenk, J., and J. Somorovsky, "On the Security of TLS
1.3 and = QUIC Against Weaknesses in PKCS#1 v1.5 Encryption",
Proceedings of = ACM CCS 2015, DOI 10.1145/2810103.2813657, October
2015, <https://www.nds.rub.de/media/nds/veroeffentlichungen/2015/08/21/Tls13QuicAttacks.pdf>.
[1] ht= tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wood-pearg-website-fingerprinting-00 --0000000000002dc4eb059ec89722-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:43:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E055120855 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:32:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uKYy4YUF1Ufj for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:32:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 317E212084C for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:32:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id v201so12415620lfa.11 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:32:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=elkHk81LxZCGEw3EieKGpfg8riinHToEDeL4vPNzJyY=; b=qOvytPIWZVRfOi57pCIWABXcKn1FpU3ekpezNu8djH7DA3im9PDqhx4Mjs8dcbuBoM I7zGhfH39mMOZ1dSqP9pIDuG5PVPGgMI8B72qJ8sfSTaLFpz4A2A6j346Jb6XmukH73B IvCeBHF7gx5XA5mZirWSsyYSvRDiYhfg8ssIeoB1wltRCNz5naFV6iGxZAcRUSI0s6Qo q3wDviUj6xQ4FgDpuVTA9gEim4VpxdSXMXOA+RFhLLCxYiRZVjXIGQBDdUdU3845bWI3 VLLcVrOlApVDPjQ3q5JfiDwKhIz3unmxpCPCBb7a+jdsW1SlxY2TRpPDb/8ro5pNG176 FNrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=elkHk81LxZCGEw3EieKGpfg8riinHToEDeL4vPNzJyY=; b=mabxo0wyH1/rwnuKg9txEgdvIMPjFKeKNx8maBHeAhku7g0I2rGw340oBi30R1+WTU vOTbjsJoL5Rcm1F4CpXRmX1U+UGaQw7B14ZqXmiSKzIplScnxk8N+5WghduYzDvza8dv e6L6dqsM2c0CDW/btU+aPkEOwsuZjm6GMPstmq3k75ajiHk17X4XlCPVwwJPRNR0K7Tx 2VrZqLj3GEH27qsoVNjRFRH56GvwsmHzlP0X/jO50FZEeazRj0Bwn0lPaFmD0AYc66DN yMxlGuC4e31FiQCE1NY05v5/fQqPpiiQsrF17cevIoS46K5eEgWNQmo0XRN3S3ww4fIp rF0A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX+qFqVXNM6lCE8vnw3imhKichXGllign2XyA4/wt8KAPbsgt7P IY9YgDFl8/pW99g0YMrfaMDI3MbPgcWxzuqnnZ3wrM+g/DM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzUthd93pwC2mXgI7la2rnoAf4cZ1tKTVRcinfipDd4AXtefWH2svWCK0CKNUIL66YUTyJw8Eiv/xOYt1/cwyc= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:53b9:: with SMTP id j25mr8332315lfh.140.1581960741614; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:32:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:31:45 -0800 Message-ID: To: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000d85c2059ec8f0c8" Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Web Tracking X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 17:32:27 -0000 --0000000000000d85c2059ec8f0c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And here is our text on Web Tracking One of the biggest threats to user privacy on the Web is ubiquitous third party tracking. This takes advantage of HTTP Cookies [RFC6265] in what is called a "third party context". The basic idea here is that whenever a resource is loaded from a server, that server can include a cookie which will be sent back to the server on future loads. This includes situations where the resource is loaded as a "subresource" on a page (e.g., an image, a piece of JavaScript, etc.). In addition, those loads include a Referer header which contains the top-level page that the subresource is being loaded from. The combination of these features makes it fairly straightforward to build a system which tracks the user across the Web. The way this works is that the tracker convinces a number of content sites ("first parties") to include a subresource from the tracker site. Sometimes this subresource also performs some other function such as displaying an ad or providing analytics to the first party site, but sometimes it is simply a tracker. Then, whenever the user visits one of those content sites, the tracker receives the pair of (1) the Referer header and (2) the cookie, which is the same for each browser client regardless of which site the tracker is on. Together these allow the tracker to build up a picture of the user's browsing history. This can then be used for various purposes, but is most commonly used for ad targeting. This capability itself constitutes a major threat to user privacy. However, there are a number of practices which increase the threat: * Cookie Syncing: any given tracker may not be on all sites, which gives the tracker incomplete coverage. However, trackers often collude (a practice called "cookie syncing") to bridge different tracking cookies. * Identifier correlation: sometimes trackers will be embedded on a site which collects a user identifier (e.g., an e-mail address), in which case the site can inform the tracker of the address which allows the tracker to tie it to the cookie. * Fingerprinting: Cookies are a form of explicit state, which allows browsers to blook or erase them. However, it is also possible to use characteristics of the browser to track the user. For instance, features such as User-Agent string, plugin and font support, screen resolution, and timezone can yield a fingerprint that is sometimes unique to a single user [0] and which persists beyond cookie deletion. Even in cases where this fingerprint is not unique, the anonymity set may be sufficiently small that, when coupled with yet more data, yields a unique, per-user identifier. Fingerprinting of this type is more prevalent on systems and platforms wherein data set features are flexible, such as desktops, wherein plugins are more commonly in use. Fingerprinting prevention is an active research area; see [1] for more information. A number of browsers have started adding anti-tracking technologies. This is a rapidly moving field and so it is difficult to characterize here, but there are several basic ideas: * Blocking any communication with known trackers * Identifying trackers and suppressing their ability to store and access cookies and other state. * "Double keying" in which each third party load on different first party sites is treated as a different context, thereby isolating cookies and other state, e.g., TLS-layer information. [0] G=C3=B3mez-Boix, Alejandro, Pierre Laperdrix, and Benoit Baudry. "Hidin= g in the crowd: an analysis of the effectiveness of browser fingerprinting at large scale." Proceedings of the 2018 world wide web conference. 2018. [1] https://amiunique.org --0000000000000d85c2059ec8f0c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And here is our text on Web Tracking

One of the biggest threats to user privacy on the Web is ubiquitou= s
third party tracking. This takes advantage of HTTP Cookies [RFC6265]in what is called a "third party context". The basic idea here = is that
whenever a resource is loaded from a server, that server can inc= lude a
cookie which will be sent back to the server on future loads. Thi= s
includes situations where the resource is loaded as a "subresourc= e" on
a page (e.g., an image, a piece of JavaScript, etc.). In addi= tion,
those loads include a Referer header which contains the top-level = page
that the subresource is being loaded from.

The combination o= f these features makes it fairly straightforward to
build a system which= tracks the user across the Web. The way this
works is that the tracker = convinces a number of content sites ("first
parties") to inclu= de a subresource from the tracker site.=C2=A0 Sometimes
this subresource= also performs some other function such as displaying
an ad or providing= analytics to the first party site, but sometimes it
is simply a tracker= . Then, whenever the user visits one of those
content sites, the tracker= receives the pair of (1) the Referer header
and (2) the cookie, which i= s the same for each browser client
regardless of which site the tracker = is on. Together these allow the
tracker to build up a picture of the use= r's browsing history. This
can then be used for various purposes, bu= t is most commonly used
for ad targeting.

This capability itself = constitutes a major threat to user privacy.
However, there are a number = of practices which increase the threat:

* Cookie Syncing: any given = tracker may not be on all sites,
=C2=A0 which gives the tracker incomple= te coverage. However, trackers
=C2=A0 often collude (a practice called &= quot;cookie syncing") to bridge
=C2=A0 different tracking cookies.<= br>
* Identifier correlation: sometimes trackers will be embedded
=C2= =A0 on a site which collects a user identifier (e.g., an e-mail
=C2=A0 a= ddress), in which case the site can inform the tracker of the
=C2=A0 add= ress which allows the tracker to tie it to the cookie.

* Fingerprint= ing: Cookies are a form of explicit state, which allows
=C2=A0 browsers = to blook or erase them. However, it is also possible to use
=C2=A0 chara= cteristics of the browser to track the user.=C2=A0 For instance,
=C2=A0 = features such as User-Agent string, plugin and font support, screen
=C2= =A0 resolution, and timezone can yield a fingerprint that is sometimes
= =C2=A0 unique to a single user [0] and which persists beyond cookie
=C2= =A0 deletion. Even in cases where this fingerprint is not unique, the
= =C2=A0 anonymity set may be sufficiently small that, when coupled with yet<= br>=C2=A0 more data, yields a unique, per-user identifier. Fingerprinting o= f
=C2=A0 this type is more prevalent on systems and platforms wherein da= ta
=C2=A0 set features are flexible, such as desktops, wherein plugins a= re
=C2=A0 more commonly in use.=C2=A0 Fingerprinting prevention is an ac= tive
=C2=A0 research area; see [1] for more information.


A nu= mber of browsers have started adding anti-tracking technologies.
This is= a rapidly moving field and so it is difficult to characterize
here, but= there are several basic ideas:

* Blocking any communication with kn= own trackers
* Identifying trackers and suppressing their ability to sto= re
=C2=A0 and access cookies and other state.
* "Double keying&q= uot; in which each third party load on different
=C2=A0 first party site= s is treated as a different context, thereby
=C2=A0 isolating cookies an= d other state, e.g., TLS-layer information.



[0] G=C3=B3mez-B= oix, Alejandro, Pierre Laperdrix, and Benoit Baudry. "Hiding in the cr= owd: an analysis of the effectiveness of browser fingerprinting at large sc= ale." Proceedings of the 2018 world wide web conference. 2018.
[1] = https://amiunique.org
--0000000000000d85c2059ec8f0c8-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:44:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 594D612008F for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:57:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9b-Xks0K93_F for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:57:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B4F8120089 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id r19so19845529ljg.3 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:57:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fop3g2F3O/KTqFy3aZvjSNVGnq+DTOLiSyuVdLIrRtY=; b=epEsNCXLfNpDYU/Wo6Wvv13dJMJWDQVXjhEO2o1d1YsMD4uELLjldJWOQfljc7aN/j qUZzKz3g7CH5Qm+Ex803pvurCEJwE9Nyj5p3YfgkWNk9P2LdCg6EgnLRO4FRsTs9oocb T7umDXswlYTjDtMA+t4DK+jVgbLpcBuzWk41+yLK25adGtbV5UOg1LW0Vz5jpP35JKiR MPo/oxTYacrRjN2lfzlLM+mhbv639KGAZt1+GljRfEG8GirVUyZ0rfsm29hMls8G70SE rkbH7fcEVURufSMH0x0ysO/m5QI6sQpq3/MnXAc4j2llAj+8jzEYsHugPj1XOKtzvuFL 61fQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fop3g2F3O/KTqFy3aZvjSNVGnq+DTOLiSyuVdLIrRtY=; b=PgtwgB6hC3CywfYTUH8PRtaewxExIHNKNw90f/a5dyic5jCMkCZytBA3/wK7kB6Wf/ 04sXPT3ifh3TcB29F5KCNbTOmMkJhCmVOU2CAacFPBzgZbcESzTbLJAKn6YsHMC9xq9a iQM7uRY3mHVYwPCeAlyVLi662e6DqUkhFSAB+kl83L9Pd9M0hGh71BEGAIZ/R3BPVH1j pYZ5Mpdw+JKdY3RMofUbIezVEuYAQAfwo2gGGuNy+sR0zLlczjG/GMTkwovVoxqcpbh9 CmGaIv8spvCXTQmtpnGcf/jYQQ4VWn6zPVzfIEmGMCFQViBsVaJa1V063mgy9ukpcxz8 yh3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX1OKo7H79bi3/w1DrsOfhd4Wqmijg2sYudi+AEtfG3CzgJuWeQ S2jAZa6WShdiA2HbBkRRKXVD5fPxC8KOLCgGf0g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzr6kOq5Ws4PZk6B+AgUUGSmwipR5m/dNvbhslSTOwXkfBonzU2JAp59IFcp9JvzfeepuZWRjBkfPHBc0H29nE= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9d3:: with SMTP id 202mr10715646ljj.60.1581962261238; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:57:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:57:14 -0600 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a1182a059ec94aff" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Considerations for modern COMSEC protocol design X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 17:57:52 -0000 --000000000000a1182a059ec94aff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not an active participant here, and the Internet is likely better for that, but this is exactly the kind of conversation I was hoping Model-T would be having. Eric, thanks for sending this. Spencer On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 11:07 AM Eric Rescorla wrote: > As promised... > > -Ekr and Chris > > > RFC 3552 provides a description of classic issues for the development > of communications security protocols. However, in the nearly 20 years > since the publication of 3552, the practice of protocol design has > moved on to a fair extent. This note sketches some of the > considerations that should be considered when designing a communications > security protocol that are not covered in detail in 3552. > > LIMIING TIME SCOPE OF COMPROMISE > RFC 3552; Section 3 says: > > The Internet environment has a fairly well understood threat model. > In general, we assume that the end-systems engaging in a protocol > exchange have not themselves been compromised. Protecting against an > attack when one of the end-systems has been compromised is > extraordinarily difficult. It is, however, possible to design > protocols which minimize the extent of the damage done under these > circumstances. > > Although this text is technically correct, modern protocol designs > such as TLS 1.3 and MLS often try to provide a fair amount of defense > against various kinds of temporary compromise. Specifically: > > - Forward Security: Many protocols are designed so that compromise of > an endpoint at time T does not lead to compromise of data transmitted > prior to some time T' < T. For instance, if a protocol is based on > Diffie-Hellman key establishment, then compromise of the long-term > keys does not lead to compromise of traffic sent prior to compromise > if the DH ephemerals and traffic keys have been deleted. > > - Post-Compromise Security: Conversely, if an endpoint is compromised > at time T, it is often desirable to have the protocol "self-heal" > so that a purely passive adversary cannot access traffic after > a certain time T' > T. MLS, for instance, is designed with this > property. > > - Containing Partial Authentication Key Compromise: If an endpoint is > stolen and its authentication secret is stolen, then an attacker can > impersonate that endpoint. However, there a number of scenarios in > which an attacker can obtain use of an authentication key but not > the secret itself (see, for instance [0]). It is often desirable to > limit the impact of such compromises (for instance, by avoiding > unlimited delegation from such keys). > > - Short-lived keys: Typical TLS certificates last for months or years. > There is a trend towards shorter certificate lifetimes so as to minimiz= e > risk of exposure in the event of key compromise. Relatedly, delegated > credentials are short-lived keys the certificate=E2=80=99s owner has de= legated > for use in TLS. These help reduce private key lifetimes without > compromising > or sacrificing reliability. > > > FORCING ACTIVE ATTACK > RFC 3552; Section 3.2 notes that it is important to consider passive > attacks. In general, it is much harder to mount an active attack, both > in terms of the capabilities required and the chance of being > detected. Another theme in recent IETF protocols design is to build > systems which might have limited defense against active attackers but > are strong against passive attackers, thus forcing the attacker to go > active. Examples include DTLS-SRTP and the trend towards opportunistic > security. However, ideally protocols are built with strong defenses > against active attackers. One prominent example is QUIC, which takes > steps to ensure that off-path connection resets are intractable in > practice. > > > TRAFFIC ANALYSIS > RFC 3552; Section 3.2.1 describes how the absence of TLS or other > transport-layer encryption may lead to obvious confidentiality > violations against passive attackers. However, recent trends in > traffic analysis indicate encryption alone may be insufficient > protection for some types of application data [1]. Encrypted traffic > metadata, especially message size, can leak information about the > underlying plaintext. DNS queries and responses are particularly > at risk given their size distributions. Recent protocols account > for this leakage by supporting padding, either generically in the > transport protocol (QUIC and TLS), or specifically in the application > protocol (EDNS(0) padding option for DNS messages). > > > CONTAINING COMPROMISE OF TRUST POINTS > Many protocols are designed to depend on trusted third parties (the > WebPKI is perhaps the canonical example); if those trust points > misbehave, the security of the protocol can be completely compromised. > > A number of recent protocols have attempted to reduce the power of > those trust points. For instance. Certificate Transparency attempts to > ensure that a CA cannot issue valid certificates without publishing > them, allowing third parties to detect certain classes of misbehavior > by those CA. Similarly, Key Transparency attempts to ensure that (public) > keys associated with a given entity are publicly visible and auditable > in tamper-proof logs. This allows users of these keys to check > them for correctness. > > In the realm of software, Reproducible Builds and Binary > Transparency are intended to allow a user to determine that they > have received a valid copy of the binary that matches the auditable > source code. Blockchain protocols such as Bitcoin and Ethereum also > employ this principle of transparency and are intended to detect > misbehavior by members of the network. > > > > [0] Jager, T.., Schwenk, J., and J. Somorovsky, "On the Security of TLS > 1.3 and QUIC Against Weaknesses in PKCS#1 v1.5 Encryption", > Proceedings of ACM CCS 2015, DOI 10.1145/2810103.2813657, October > 2015, veroeffentlichungen/2015/08/21/Tls13QuicAttacks.pdf>. > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wood-pearg-website-fingerprinting-0= 0 > -- > Model-t mailing list > Model-t@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t > --000000000000a1182a059ec94aff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not an active participant here, and the Internet i= s likely better for that, but this is exactly the kind of conversation I wa= s hoping Model-T would be having.=C2=A0

Eric, thanks for= sending this.=C2=A0

Spencer

On Mon, Feb 17, = 2020 at 11:07 AM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm= .com> wrote:
As promised...

-Ekr and = Chris


RFC 3552 provides a descr= iption of classic issues for the development
of communications securit= y protocols. However, in the nearly 20 years
since the publication of 35= 52, the practice of protocol design has
moved on to a fair extent. This = note sketches some of the
considerations that should be considered when = designing a communications
security protocol that are not covered in det= ail in 3552.

LIMIING TIME SCOPE OF COMPROMISE
RFC 3552; Section 3= says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The Internet environment has a fairly well under= stood threat model.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In general, we assume that the end-syst= ems engaging in a protocol
=C2=A0 =C2=A0exchange have not themselves bee= n compromised.=C2=A0 Protecting against an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0attack when one = of the end-systems has been compromised is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0extraordinarily = difficult.=C2=A0 It is, however, possible to design
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protoco= ls which minimize the extent of the damage done under these
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0circumstances.

Although this text is technically correct, modern = protocol designs
such as TLS 1.3 and MLS often try to provide a fair amo= unt of defense
against various kinds of temporary compromise. Specifical= ly:

- Forward Security: Many protocols are designed so that compromi= se of
=C2=A0 an endpoint at time T does not lead to compromise of data t= ransmitted
=C2=A0 prior to some time T' < T. For instance, if a p= rotocol is based on
=C2=A0 Diffie-Hellman key establishment, then compro= mise of the long-term
=C2=A0 keys does not lead to compromise of traffic= sent prior to compromise
=C2=A0 if the DH ephemerals and traffic keys h= ave been deleted.

- Post-Compromise Security: Conversely, if an endp= oint is compromised
=C2=A0 at time T, it is often desirable to have the = protocol "self-heal"
=C2=A0 so that a purely passive adversary= cannot access traffic after
=C2=A0 a certain time T' > T. MLS, f= or instance, is designed with this
=C2=A0 property.

- Containing = Partial Authentication Key Compromise: If an endpoint is
=C2=A0 stolen a= nd its authentication secret is stolen, then an attacker can
=C2=A0 impe= rsonate that endpoint. However, there a number of scenarios in
=C2=A0 wh= ich an attacker can obtain use of an authentication key but not
=C2=A0 t= he secret itself (see, for instance [0]). It is often desirable to
=C2= =A0 limit the impact of such compromises (for instance, by avoiding
=C2= =A0 unlimited delegation from such keys).

- Short-lived keys: Typica= l TLS certificates last for months or years.
=C2=A0 There is a trend tow= ards shorter certificate lifetimes so as to minimize
=C2=A0 risk of expo= sure in the event of key compromise. Relatedly, delegated
=C2=A0 credent= ials are short-lived keys the certificate=E2=80=99s owner has delegated
= =C2=A0 for use in TLS. These help reduce private key lifetimes without comp= romising
=C2=A0 or sacrificing reliability.


FORCING ACTIVE AT= TACK
RFC 3552; Section 3.2 notes that it is important to consider passiv= e
attacks. In general, it is much harder to mount an active attack, both=
in terms of the capabilities required and the chance of being
detect= ed. Another theme in recent IETF protocols design is to build
systems wh= ich might have limited defense against active attackers but
are strong a= gainst passive attackers, thus forcing the attacker to go
active. Exampl= es include DTLS-SRTP and the trend towards opportunistic
security. Howev= er, ideally protocols are built with strong defenses
against active atta= ckers. One prominent example is QUIC, which takes
steps to ensure that o= ff-path connection resets are intractable in
practice.


TRAFFI= C ANALYSIS
RFC 3552; Section 3.2.1 describes how the absence of TLS or o= ther
transport-layer encryption may lead to obvious confidentiality
v= iolations against passive attackers. However, recent trends in
traffic a= nalysis indicate encryption alone may be insufficient
protection for som= e types of application data [1]. Encrypted traffic
metadata, especially = message size, can leak information about the
underlying plaintext. DNS q= ueries and responses are particularly
at risk given their size distribut= ions. Recent protocols account
for this leakage by supporting padding, e= ither generically in the
transport protocol (QUIC and TLS), or specifica= lly in the application
protocol (EDNS(0) padding option for DNS messages= ).


CONTAINING COMPROMISE OF TRUST POINTS
Many protocols are d= esigned to depend on trusted third parties (the
WebPKI is perhaps the ca= nonical example); if those trust points
misbehave, the security of the p= rotocol can be completely compromised.

A number of recent protocols = have attempted to reduce the power of
those trust points. For instance. = Certificate Transparency attempts to
ensure that a CA cannot issue valid= certificates without publishing
them, allowing third parties to detect = certain classes of misbehavior
by those CA. Similarly, Key Transparency = attempts to ensure that (public)
keys associated with a given entity are= publicly visible and auditable
in tamper-proof logs. This allows users = of these keys to check
them for correctness.

In the realm of soft= ware, Reproducible Builds and Binary
Transparency are intended to allow = a user to determine that they
have received a valid copy of the binary t= hat matches the auditable
source code. Blockchain protocols such as Bitc= oin and Ethereum also
employ this principle of transparency and are inte= nded to detect
misbehavior by members of the network.



[0]= Jager, T.., Schwenk, J., and J. Somorovsky, "On the Security of TLS1.3 and QUIC Against Weaknesses in PKCS#1 v1.5 Encryption",
Proce= edings of ACM CCS 2015, DOI 10.1145/2810103.2813657, October
2015, <<= a href=3D"https://www.nds.rub.de/media/nds/" target=3D"_blank">https://www.= nds.rub.de/media/nds/
veroeffentlichungen/2015/08/21/Tls13QuicAttack= s.pdf>.
[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra= ft-wood-pearg-website-fingerprinting-00
--
Model-t mailing list
Model-t@iab.org https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t
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Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from steel.local ([12.124.76.250]) (authenticated bits=0) by v2.bluepopcorn.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id 01HIEvqJ024962 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:14:59 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bluepopcorn.net; s=supersize; t=1581963299; bh=Xd6vrhs1WIAXhdqdzRXeFaUXDIeRv9sn5+/6+pP4CCQ=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=hZo6IhbqCubICkKABRyXc8cfXY3bK2cL8oOBBhVUoZjEUaDYjWcsxoAKkcYLUJZQF VLED69Ig8dvFihQ98g2ZPn+rIZ0XE8dH4AJxmrnNHVLJquSA9NSJli11dd5w0uN9LG PQ4DgmZhp0d1x9DPANQnZLz0fBmhYSL54bC4apPc= To: model-t@iab.org References: From: Jim Fenton Autocrypt: addr=fenton@bluepopcorn.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFJNz0MBEADME6UoNSsTvSDJOdzL4yWfH4HTTOOZZPUcM/at38j4joeBb2PdatlwCBtk 9ZjupxFK+Qh5NZC19Oa6CHo0vlqw7V1hx1MUhmSPbzKRcNFhJu0KcQdniI8qmsqoG50IELXN BPI5OEZ3chYHpoXXi2+VCkjXJyeoqRNwNdv6QPGg6O1FMbB+AcIZj3x5U18LnJnXv1i+1vBq CxbMP43VmryPf8BLufcEciXpMEHydHbrEBZb/r7SBkUhdQXjxRNcWOLeYvOVUOOrr1c+jvqm DEbTWUJVRnUro/WpZQBffFnymR0jjkdAa8eOVl/nF2oMLbaBsOMvxCRSSEcGhuqwbEappNVT 1nuBTbkJT/GGcXxc+lEx9uNj86oYC4384VZJMTd1BRI4qPXImNZCIdmpKegK743B6xxN6Qh1 Tg167pn9429JENQE/AFIVX5B/gpsg7Aq+3rmz9H6GbfovPvFV3TBTgsHCHAMC8XU+S4fhcqN PN0lbUeyb7g6wxaE+dYqC7TExx7G3prw4v66y0qS7ow/Cfw8XXOEkaFQ4XwP7nvfILT+9CcU yS8I40vlDFU9Wnt56CbGz0ZVQgHnwyPXL+S9kCcIwRLFx1M79s6T6qwX1TXadfpbi1uIw7XG TiPDT8Pk6i2y22oSSROyYD4D+wOhVkkvO0S8iZ3+LhAYUx86nwARAQABtCNKaW0gRmVudG9u IDxmZW50b25AYmx1ZXBvcGNvcm4ubmV0PokCVQQTAQIAPwIbAwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoLBBYC AwECHgECF4AWIQS1nUkJe2fEXbvBaacbJaiwFdCfvgUCXVD9ggUJDORhvgAKCRAbJaiwFdCf vgiSEACd3Nem63zL2C6daCFfRzOANkf30Q8AvaRVwhfdFxs+5vETCzbqctrtIAHeqncXjm9G uEJWxecAiHZXKoWUEFECMp3+Saznw0np+c722M4k9xI+mxqbcE0qgpYQgA8zbS/Lbds3f/bk /00jrQg4VMkumONlh+RZVwxAsnWp8efrJsNTn0QOPZavAkPEN59wfyWQ3O4pNY8i3zum8Wge 8NS4BBMyG0fmjWgUq0K2QrTD4AKBslM2IWCLECypP1AOfHKmmTACKFOnzJJ4KspUw3hdBnS1 fvudUC8u26Q3T6rHosRqxGmgW7sQWwAusgMSa/A6zxR6soEBSsMT5Tf+VHebuz1FWE4ogrvJ InvewfYSCYzOQamYYGArcBtAzU00pUzW2Or7SlwZPHHy2EfMd0zvT7mwSYLwwwcCsWc1O/CI xHGea7PBgO3TdR0Ex254yc+NTyxF3isBC/fodF9aNWF6x6SV3VKYJ3U2uqS9ga85dZz8Qeps MwlSEGRVhVVWGbSxy0GxV5Up0yX4vl0kI0c7Tt57JCOoRBpn/lTK/7IEtZK6/uiw98KCy+BM uF7HPsgXjd/AQjSsZIJgDyVY/y7niduqhW2izNEdhV77htVbKHRf2SfJQNudWOIcOhUTlddH kOSjet+MDso61JxrFV4j/8wFno7NwpPIhD//HvKAiLkCDQRSTc9DARAAwZaXYs3OzGlpqvSH 3HR9GjSzIeP0EmsBCjpfIdZbQBwQ3ZREiMGInNxV+xkdjLDg0ctrWzUCUe3plWe5NJkpjqm+ KMc7GKhyeWJ5MZRtVrh0VpFTqi8UwYPWumAYqE1y/U1me/zHpfG9EDwdSYqMkPF76Fy5W+vh ZP2ILKaY8qWSLyH8TPl5mFGBypfT8Q6UuzlRs2aTbsTtBX/qwH7gztMRJSjQtYo20AqCgBBH IA/0xV5qDH7CVYyKyPQ4tJLQ8/xyTysUS5fewrj8lZo/G9SaNtC3CEvrJYwyA0nvYB6+hJPM qMP/tyRXM/9XY3qO4Vxuc+m5fYbTZa5GYAZNNuB5dvqI1U0sFTWBEbpAeabqCQ40ZnFSj+t1 tBuwfj4ey/oJ78WRyg5+VTvPKRRubOmZcnzj5yfTS3VGxAZb4Nsj1S2f3KLP0Z+Cv4dt893I 2JWTChw7jA1omF0QTQaBq140n084PFndBHudrZ3cz+APC89iie2HQ4jGQldXZXnGySHnHlA+ WUyZ9wgOplW9F4Q/Lps1bnuh5VttPVpNfjX8hiV48al+b+ut4nfzXAripIRWF3TL72/6JqgE KNhRKyRn0S6BidieSyHWzqJR3Roi/YNTvyXyLh6i6jtByb3FbnhYf/9olobDpj0E+kTemLrw owre85gwupSphqlzVSUAEQEAAYkCPAQYAQIAJgIbDBYhBLWdSQl7Z8Rdu8FppxslqLAV0J++ BQJdUP9SBQkM5GOPAAoJEBslqLAV0J++vZoP/1shJ+5iImGzvGUTTDJcAX6Wha+22QP0G51Z QGZbeB0gE+gDmRwd2yw0cO3y1sPoTJliUSuZ3DFIjv8CLBgDlrkUnijBWbi5YznsAZkH0vKG ESGzinJC6y/Nzf2TZokKiOaYrTYcZx8x2wxjNO+zsihm/rvhV/YnHEYd9dlV/MjAL3xtHU/9 fNcTDtF3RchADyVCxlqrRUkFj61dHxU+U5JRftyIliLltsy2Nlr4uAsxNX+tpAH2D2HLmjwx bV2fpTnFCVImtuo6ZqNZ8SMk1Xq0fBBdo3acBw42kL/qGIKS9x3NWEy8vsmQXn0QqNBd1Q62 9ghm82mHMTRKnOXqkMgICpZ0HffPf3p7zMkEqWptgEHxE6ZHm9hJMGEf8RED9DCYh+N1uFaM 7ndQPPFKlj80sGmNF9+01mO53hrxeL/WAdGox/STpTb2BDpiyrLdT/2R0vJNEfMxBBYlw1gc g8mPEwHwZ940/qql7e41TkDGUZa2a1WegKLj8hK1pgDDBptcdIvlvuk284jOZ2/jDyaBDsMf 310OoJchJ3977odtSCArybQIwMjTx0rv6dqjsuqP89jqlrGV6izqf1n4p4FNrBSWOSRGaoWD JJVHL4YUhP44G5xDBCtp3TqatLa5F2Rgxj50EFIzOuu9Pg1tBCPP1G+0EiikVTdDkC63X4RG Message-ID: <89462939-a700-3065-3666-4813a3d2d1a2@bluepopcorn.net> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:14:52 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Web Tracking X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 18:15:02 -0000 On 2/17/20 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > And here is our text on Web Tracking Excellent summary. > > One of the biggest threats to user privacy on the Web is ubiquitous > third party tracking. This takes advantage of HTTP Cookies [RFC6265] > in what is called a "third party context". The basic idea here is that > whenever a resource is loaded from a server, that server can include a > cookie which will be sent back to the server on future loads. This > includes situations where the resource is loaded as a "subresource" on > a page (e.g., an image, a piece of JavaScript, etc.). In addition, > those loads include a Referer header which contains the top-level page > that the subresource is being loaded from. In addition to the Referer header, I would also mention the use of identifiers in the URL, often encoded as query components. They can not only associate the query with the top-level page, but also persist when a URL is shared from one user to another, giving the tracker visibility into user relationships. -Jim From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:44:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7A3120860 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:46:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n81idap0gqY3 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:46:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB73112012C for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.69] ([77.21.26.148]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Myb8N-1jOhTA3IRZ-00yyZG; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:46:09 +0100 From: "Dirk Kutscher" To: "Eric Rescorla" Cc: model-t@iab.org Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:46:08 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: <58B785BF-BBC5-457F-98C7-361A0210E7A1@dkutscher.net> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_0BD23BEA-D489-4187-AADC-2DADBAE0BF24_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Embedded-HTML: [{"HTML":[412, 4145], "plain":[81, 3838], "uuid":"A3545DA5-63F3-4595-AE89-18737A1C7505"}] X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:fDOE5ZCqhM6GV/aDJcd3KfVhMqFeNbdJATHqrdakGK+QpZ8sptr vvLsmIJgVaE5NJ3DMTiK9YRMD1XLys+1g7QE6jpsfdtw4z5gJBB5veK9eECs2FJVE9Xnan5 SMbocDrAJMp9ZIPdqwv8WBHEVtk0mRn3tRYAOlBXX/bt9nY+VZ5yXvK0b/5iglycEQA+tqo h5CKvPr2fQysy2dSRfkJA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:YnbBTWbHHgY=:sUjfofWQfke2itqt6T1MZn SOzWM9nrCgHY/ltC3/2KX4fOAq1acKpJZTqGo1F5HC8Gry2RPKRynjiEEcjHroq5vjpTwl3sM dfv0qF2QRrqO2aGViWDKLs6uLBT8DatdqOv7Yjyc4UUPIns1IpuCl73ukXmb68MpKAYQw3Qlc rsM3HSOCBhZeyQFMwcmAm0oJhYZzpE2PjDcK3MAcCTPJsvuS7WJXRwChv7MT/gPYBErpN1gRz 1vyMebqNJenfEGNjiCCyLKUFCjoCSZoP3iSh4GyBCPEAIFOD+Behg6T7hB38LD9ql4HCmRgsZ PF9zUFiLRKufE7eGpR16fdTHMg5hQVxLlaA+vtyWj5GkffZIclQl6D7/SrOv9peBJLdzBRlRQ 01n57ZcdwHMd3NHCpkEMjUJI0pblmBVMzu2EkytK0zEUwX8d+qF8XAdunRqS9zuQDmChihH+v j4uAVgGfS6uRem87wWr15XtUPPCxPmMPxfvIa63uzjbnoElPvU4jTIGrdNiNhF5AXfADA7xrD DWyR7bv/+tcG7ivEyF1/rEKC49lH+qxyOaPYVb7pxpp6c4ZZRLWgPG6QhzQupNURXRrbgdLbQ PTWApqGVUB/25U+ql3tY8/q0QVNqlNijxTRCUnB+o439jOVRTBbSKszX143bFtr5P311bLVLB GDSmp5UXUlInetnKQyu7mYnXgF6pl/QX9vR6qV9p1flreArdVk7xhJutEyQl725U5XbpMEyvh LIwQ2yIoUiLrnu4G6n3cYqyDBR+YIstFHr9DA3od9m2GzZHgATwjgMsjFyeoukXDYwlmN+HgJ vPKthu+qD0VGq8/OVQQHh197t4xBhmDHdjaSfFXe0JsawhgtT7S8u8A+Z1U1MSpULU44eet Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Web Tracking X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 18:46:24 -0000 --=_MailMate_0BD23BEA-D489-4187-AADC-2DADBAE0BF24_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks — very useful! Dirk On 17 Feb 2020, at 18:31, Eric Rescorla wrote: > And here is our text on Web Tracking > > One of the biggest threats to user privacy on the Web is ubiquitous > third party tracking. This takes advantage of HTTP Cookies [RFC6265] > in what is called a "third party context". The basic idea here is that > whenever a resource is loaded from a server, that server can include a > cookie which will be sent back to the server on future loads. This > includes situations where the resource is loaded as a "subresource" on > a page (e.g., an image, a piece of JavaScript, etc.). In addition, > those loads include a Referer header which contains the top-level page > that the subresource is being loaded from. > > The combination of these features makes it fairly straightforward to > build a system which tracks the user across the Web. The way this > works is that the tracker convinces a number of content sites ("first > parties") to include a subresource from the tracker site. Sometimes > this subresource also performs some other function such as displaying > an ad or providing analytics to the first party site, but sometimes it > is simply a tracker. Then, whenever the user visits one of those > content sites, the tracker receives the pair of (1) the Referer header > and (2) the cookie, which is the same for each browser client > regardless of which site the tracker is on. Together these allow the > tracker to build up a picture of the user's browsing history. This > can then be used for various purposes, but is most commonly used > for ad targeting. > > This capability itself constitutes a major threat to user privacy. > However, there are a number of practices which increase the threat: > > * Cookie Syncing: any given tracker may not be on all sites, > which gives the tracker incomplete coverage. However, trackers > often collude (a practice called "cookie syncing") to bridge > different tracking cookies. > > * Identifier correlation: sometimes trackers will be embedded > on a site which collects a user identifier (e.g., an e-mail > address), in which case the site can inform the tracker of the > address which allows the tracker to tie it to the cookie. > > * Fingerprinting: Cookies are a form of explicit state, which allows > browsers to blook or erase them. However, it is also possible to use > characteristics of the browser to track the user. For instance, > features such as User-Agent string, plugin and font support, screen > resolution, and timezone can yield a fingerprint that is sometimes > unique to a single user [0] and which persists beyond cookie > deletion. Even in cases where this fingerprint is not unique, the > anonymity set may be sufficiently small that, when coupled with yet > more data, yields a unique, per-user identifier. Fingerprinting of > this type is more prevalent on systems and platforms wherein data > set features are flexible, such as desktops, wherein plugins are > more commonly in use. Fingerprinting prevention is an active > research area; see [1] for more information. > > > A number of browsers have started adding anti-tracking technologies. > This is a rapidly moving field and so it is difficult to characterize > here, but there are several basic ideas: > > * Blocking any communication with known trackers > * Identifying trackers and suppressing their ability to store > and access cookies and other state. > * "Double keying" in which each third party load on different > first party sites is treated as a different context, thereby > isolating cookies and other state, e.g., TLS-layer information. > > > > [0] Gómez-Boix, Alejandro, Pierre Laperdrix, and Benoit Baudry. "Hiding in > the crowd: an analysis of the effectiveness of browser fingerprinting at > large scale." Proceedings of the 2018 world wide web conference. 2018. > [1] https://amiunique.org > -- > Model-t mailing list > Model-t@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t --=_MailMate_0BD23BEA-D489-4187-AADC-2DADBAE0BF24_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= p dir=3D"auto">Thanks =E2=80=94 very useful!

Dirk

On 17 Feb 2020, at 18:31, Eric Rescorla wrote:

And here is our text on Web Tracking

One of the biggest threats to user privacy on the Web is ubiquit= ous
third party tracking. This takes advantage of HTTP Cookies [RFC626= 5]
in what is called a "third party context". The basic idea= here is that
whenever a resource is loaded from a server, that server= can include a
cookie which will be sent back to the server on future = loads. This
includes situations where the resource is loaded as a &quo= t;subresource" on
a page (e.g., an image, a piece of JavaScript, = etc.). In addition,
those loads include a Referer header which contain= s the top-level page
that the subresource is being loaded from.
The combination of these features makes it fairly straightforward to
= build a system which tracks the user across the Web. The way this
work= s is that the tracker convinces a number of content sites ("firstparties") to include a subresource from the tracker site.=C2=A0 Som= etimes
this subresource also performs some other function such as disp= laying
an ad or providing analytics to the first party site, but somet= imes it
is simply a tracker.. Then, whenever the user visits one of th= ose
content sites, the tracker receives the pair of (1) the Referer he= ader
and (2) the cookie, which is the same for each browser client
= regardless of which site the tracker is on. Together these allow the
t= racker to build up a picture of the user's browsing history. This
= can then be used for various purposes, but is most commonly used
for a= d targeting.

This capability itself constitutes a major threat to = user privacy.
However, there are a number of practices which increase = the threat:

* Cookie Syncing: any given tracker may not be on all = sites,
=C2=A0 which gives the tracker incomplete coverage. However, tr= ackers
=C2=A0 often collude (a practice called "cookie syncing&qu= ot;) to bridge
=C2=A0 different tracking cookies.

* Identifier = correlation: sometimes trackers will be embedded
=C2=A0 on a site whic= h collects a user identifier (e.g., an e-mail
=C2=A0 address), in whic= h case the site can inform the tracker of the
=C2=A0 address which all= ows the tracker to tie it to the cookie.

* Fingerprinting: Cookies= are a form of explicit state, which allows
=C2=A0 browsers to blook o= r erase them. However, it is also possible to use
=C2=A0 characteristi= cs of the browser to track the user.=C2=A0 For instance,
=C2=A0 featur= es such as User-Agent string, plugin and font support, screen
=C2=A0 r= esolution, and timezone can yield a fingerprint that is sometimes
=C2=A0= unique to a single user [0] and which persists beyond cookie
=C2=A0 d= eletion. Even in cases where this fingerprint is not unique, the
=C2=A0= anonymity set may be sufficiently small that, when coupled with yet
=C2= =A0 more data, yields a unique, per-user identifier. Fingerprinting of=C2=A0 this type is more prevalent on systems and platforms wherein data=
=C2=A0 set features are flexible, such as desktops, wherein plugins a= re
=C2=A0 more commonly in use.=C2=A0 Fingerprinting prevention is an = active
=C2=A0 research area; see [1] for more information.


= A number of browsers have started adding anti-tracking technologies.
T= his is a rapidly moving field and so it is difficult to characterize
h= ere, but there are several basic ideas:

* Blocking any communicati= on with known trackers
* Identifying trackers and suppressing their ab= ility to store
=C2=A0 and access cookies and other state.
* "D= ouble keying" in which each third party load on different
=C2=A0 = first party sites is treated as a different context, thereby
=C2=A0 is= olating cookies and other state, e.g., TLS-layer information.


=
[0] G=C3=B3mez-Boix, Alejandro, Pierre Laperdrix, and Benoit Baudry. = "Hiding in the crowd: an analysis of the effectiveness of browser fi= ngerprinting at large scale." Proceedings of the 2018 world wide web= conference. 2018.
[1] https://amiun= ique.org

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--=_MailMate_0BD23BEA-D489-4187-AADC-2DADBAE0BF24_=-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:45:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F37DE120864 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:19:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tw36Nwtp3990 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:19:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb30.google.com (mail-yb1-xb30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD5A8120866 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:19:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb30.google.com with SMTP id f130so9201198ybc.7 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:19:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Mb0KFlQDsFygT78gOBMITJHUw/sAUihW9lWpqA7jK8g=; b=lZrD/4hIKwDXQY9uNqR78vZVbvQuFyLmFEeICZoFnCqWcfHqTnJHk1lFebVwQxOd/l zPdPr6Vw3mJjyibhFKWl4h8gi3ed+PxKOGqt6WsoXcbNSdf9cpkb2zZgtMIs2nasNh3O 12oKNI9oV+RHXjR5v79D15I5k/iLh5My7iXpkKMgJVuzr9XmTGPUcyq6CDMfcFvu6Jr+ 8YhDFEpFDffoCPEMNSaU5bZDZtT6IOlWktFnxLEDLuLs1gI+zeOxW5jvPh0Wl9WZHWG0 g9AP7GMJEbG6dr5kdbSCOp/ICdVmaz/XNjsE1Y85lnMeLJrAYlJ9GjCc3GAnem7LTbJS Hdwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Mb0KFlQDsFygT78gOBMITJHUw/sAUihW9lWpqA7jK8g=; b=GwoAD8mlfWt2aOoLyna8pURMXb75j32Js8idKbgxev2ILaRKohtc1Vz5PHoH4yxzbz 7AL8WciUOOcG7+kTOcB9jQwA4mOQiN8Mb0RWHSigr8OlfUpJ7xnXWKI21bqBJktW9ur5 PUtYDgi2nJ4RVRhSF3btArf7DO4c5T2wum0U9greyp5rxZcnHwIz9X5pj3UOVf6YEF7J ede7zkvpOD2jhqLmZLgVhdTWLF4cLvliuEiNpG148fBjPVOI0oGC8nXEy9JyH3cpmvc3 BB5uo/DRhZwLinZoGre6hiSlLg7yxb37at0MdCiwdJj1sPgryt2XfaMtSe9LI6WFQ/0c Vhbw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXdCo16yZV0MdQ/Huc/ZPgIEYshlJwpB5dEIxeaQkjvFGd5xGyP uSDmw9E7+Y+Js8FnG/teH/a1LUbUEgWIgKcR8nc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzWYaRVV2rfZaC4iKqMEUOsy/uSH1+Vwo+C/q5Op6ncZYLWqUhy8lRU0435rSv7v3FSsYNhN7nGNP0KfdhOuN4= X-Received: by 2002:a25:1544:: with SMTP id 65mr15033182ybv.107.1581967139072; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:18:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:18:43 +0300 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Web Tracking X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:19:06 -0000 Peace, On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 8:32 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > And here is our text on Web Tracking The text doesn't mention a potential side channel issue. E.g. today, the world's largest user activity tracker is also the world's largest Web browser vendor, so in theory, they technically (I'm not saying "legally") don't need cookies at all. Other side channels exist, e.g. a DDoS protection provider who happens to also provide a VPN phone app. -- T=C3=B6ma From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:48:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066BE1208D4 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 12:47:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QS-X67AWc3Mp for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 12:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC4A012089F for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IuK2nFA5HkgJLPOmBptFaukN7HjG917tk" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Considerations for modern COMSEC protocol design X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 20:47:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --IuK2nFA5HkgJLPOmBptFaukN7HjG917tk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="O4Zq5q9zLHhi2kwCIbI4TYXHewGJjrlOz"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eric Rescorla , model-t@iab.org Message-ID: <09e09f3d-9889-897d-7adb-561b2f5458af@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Model-t] Considerations for modern COMSEC protocol design References: In-Reply-To: --O4Zq5q9zLHhi2kwCIbI4TYXHewGJjrlOz Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B241787CC3BC00E5492849F4" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B241787CC3BC00E5492849F4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, Thanks for the great text. That really ought land in some I-D or RFC sometime. (I'd probably like to use that with permission in our I-D if that'd be ok.) While I agree with all your text, there's maybe a little more to say on this bit... On 17/02/2020 17:06, Eric Rescorla wrote: > FORCING ACTIVE ATTACK > RFC 3552; Section 3.2 notes that it is important to consider passive > attacks. In general, it is much harder to mount an active attack, both > in terms of the capabilities required and the chance of being > detected. Another theme in recent IETF protocols design is to build > systems which might have limited defense against active attackers but > are strong against passive attackers, thus forcing the attacker to go > active. Examples include DTLS-SRTP and the trend towards opportunistic > security. However, ideally protocols are built with strong defenses > against active attackers. One prominent example is QUIC, which takes > steps to ensure that off-path connection resets are intractable in > practice. I'm still a fan of opportunistic security (OS) as described in RFC7435, but in the time since that was written, I think I've slightly modified my position on the topic. Nowadays, I think OS is most useful when it's a practical step on a realistic path from OS to defense against active attackers, e.g. the evolution from where we were in 2014 to MTA-STS (RFC8461) is maybe a good example. I won't try wordsmith that in, but be interested if you/others think similarly. 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[95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7680DBE2F; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 21:07:34 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1581973654; bh=Un05jNuj67dt4gBdMzQOu39jA7ZMqA+atLuVixdkIK8=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=JDMLUotDwyBhyYwmtsYqHDxNmQvxuaDRVxiXcex0sfETo3jC9A8d4xLKVl3pGMzit 0PTSpPgzW0TJ07menpKFueM3hYzof3ZxkIMlmxOP/GZaxsTwR9qDFOa61fIv7p822N DUXLbtFRPVyQkoCZ/oxNNZJtUFjy7gKIESsAcysw= To: Eric Rescorla , model-t@iab.org References: From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO 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multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cj9Wmq66FIFO3urN7VXUuqiDnhRB9y7Hi" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Web Tracking X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 21:07:41 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --cj9Wmq66FIFO3urN7VXUuqiDnhRB9y7Hi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="fKQs7G9v5OSFLzlOduQbfvK53JX8hGlW3"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eric Rescorla , model-t@iab.org Message-ID: <289da17d-a8ae-f639-5719-fa7b466b4f4a@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Model-t] Web Tracking References: In-Reply-To: --fKQs7G9v5OSFLzlOduQbfvK53JX8hGlW3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F78C407DB0FC66FC9E1C5330" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F78C407DB0FC66FC9E1C5330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks again for more good text. On 17/02/2020 17:31, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > A number of browsers have started adding anti-tracking technologies. > This is a rapidly moving field and so it is difficult to characterize > here, but there are several basic ideas: Yeah, this area is harder to describe both because it's so active but also I think because many of those in this space to some extent today depend on the ad based business model and/or want to track people for reasons some of the people tracked will consider good, while others will regard that same tracking as bad. T=C3=B6ma's mail also hits on that aspect I think. The other thing that struck me is that collecting telemetry and calling-home (for s/w update) are somewhat similar to web tracking. I think Mozilla have been actively trying to reduce the tracking potential of your telemetry in various clever ways, so pointers to that might help the discussion some. I've no idea if anyone has had good ideas about better ways to call home for updates though. Anyway, I'll be really interested in where this discussion goes! 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boundary="gAhwdMfKH1PfamJOkqvsQs9RPRXggz30g" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Considerations for modern COMSEC protocol design X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 21:15:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --gAhwdMfKH1PfamJOkqvsQs9RPRXggz30g Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="RyP2XQp8cR7dAiy5aw196b05PatU4qjaL" --RyP2XQp8cR7dAiy5aw196b05PatU4qjaL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C545208A1D59B6F98FEC7A43" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C545208A1D59B6F98FEC7A43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/17/20 12:47 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > Hiya, > > Thanks for the great text. That really ought land in some > I-D or RFC sometime. (I'd probably like to use that with > permission in our I-D if that'd be ok.) > > While I agree with all your text, there's maybe a little > more to say on this bit... > > On 17/02/2020 17:06, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> FORCING ACTIVE ATTACK >> RFC 3552; Section 3.2 notes that it is important to consider passive >> attacks. In general, it is much harder to mount an active attack, both= >> in terms of the capabilities required and the chance of being >> detected. Another theme in recent IETF protocols design is to build >> systems which might have limited defense against active attackers but >> are strong against passive attackers, thus forcing the attacker to go >> active. Examples include DTLS-SRTP and the trend towards opportunistic= >> security. However, ideally protocols are built with strong defenses >> against active attackers. One prominent example is QUIC, which takes >> steps to ensure that off-path connection resets are intractable in >> practice. > I'm still a fan of opportunistic security (OS) as > described in RFC7435, but in the time since that was > written, I think I've slightly modified my position on > the topic. Nowadays, I think OS is most useful when > it's a practical step on a realistic path from OS to > defense against active attackers, e.g. the evolution > from where we were in 2014 to MTA-STS (RFC8461) is > maybe a good example. I won't try wordsmith that in, > but be interested if you/others think similarly. I'm somewhat less of a fan of opportunistic security; before deciding that the capabilities required for an active attack are harder to mount, you need to consider the threat model. Consider that there are several countries that have been launching downgrade attacks against SMTP STARTTLS on a substantial fraction of their outgoing traffic [1]. And that doesn't even consider more targeted attacks against specific clients= =2E [1] Durumeric, Zakir, David Adrian, Ariana Mirian, James Kasten, Elie Bursztein, Nicolas Lidzborski, Kurt Thomas, Vijay Eranti, Michael Bailey, and J. Alex Halderman. 2015. =E2=80=9CNeither Snow Nor Rain Nor M= ITM...: An Empirical Analysis of Email Delivery Security.=E2=80=9D In /Proceeding= s of the 2015 Internet Measurement Conference/, 27=E2=80=9339. IMC =E2=80=9915= =2E Tokyo, Japan: Association for Computing Machinery. https://doi.org/10.1145/2815675.2815695. --------------C545208A1D59B6F98FEC7A43 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 2/17/20 12:47 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
Hiya,

Thanks for the great text. That really ought land in some
I-D or RFC sometime. (I'd probably like to use that with
permission in our I-D if that'd be ok.)

While I agree with all your text, there's maybe a little
more to say on this bit...

On 17/02/2020 17:06, Eric Rescorla wrote:

FORCING ACTIVE ATTACK
RFC 3552; Section 3.2 notes that it is important to consider passive
attacks. In general, it is much harder to mount an active attack, both
in terms of the capabilities required and the chance of being
detected. Another theme in recent IETF protocols design is to build
systems which might have limited defense against active attackers but
are strong against passive attackers, thus forcing the attacker to go
active. Examples include DTLS-SRTP and the trend towards opportunistic
security. However, ideally protocols are built with strong defenses
against active attackers. One prominent example is QUIC, which takes
steps to ensure that off-path connection resets are intractable in
practice.

I'm still a fan of opportunistic security (OS) as
described in RFC7435, but in the time since that was
written, I think I've slightly modified my position on
the topic. Nowadays, I think OS is most useful when
it's a practical step on a realistic path from OS to
defense against active attackers, e.g. the evolution
from where we were in 2014 to MTA-STS (RFC8461) is
maybe a good example. I won't try wordsmith that in,
but be interested if you/others think similarly.


I'm somewhat less of a fan of opportunistic security; before deciding that the capabilities required for an active attack are harder to mount, you need to consider the threat model. Consider that there are several countries that have been launching downgrade attacks against SMTP STARTTLS on a substantial fraction of their outgoing traffic [1]. And that doesn't even consider more targeted attacks against specific clients.

[1] Durumeric, Zakir, David Adrian, Ariana Mirian, James Kasten, Elie Bursztein, Nicolas Lidzborski, Kurt Thomas, Vijay Eranti, Michael Bailey, and J. Alex Halderman. 2015. =E2=80=9CNeither Snow = Nor Rain Nor MITM...: An Empirical Analysis of Email Delivery Security.=E2=80=9D In Proceedings of the 2015 Internet Measureme= nt Conference, 27=E2=80=9339. IMC =E2=80=9915. Tokyo, Japan: Ass= ociation for Computing Machinery. https://doi.org/= 10.1145/2815675.2815695.

=
--------------C545208A1D59B6F98FEC7A43-- --RyP2XQp8cR7dAiy5aw196b05PatU4qjaL-- --gAhwdMfKH1PfamJOkqvsQs9RPRXggz30g Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEtZ1JCXtnxF27wWmnGyWosBXQn74FAl5LAmgACgkQGyWosBXQ n76T9w//X+eGm7ZW4ZpxJKQXsE9wIoO6VyLMjlWP1zGga1KLQpG4wSYVyLng4mD8 TXIEUUiwAgJdWJ6EmCEPbgLxgjM+Ts8N70iUAivN6bf2x79V8eF/+LgflSilsL35 VIpQP3pdgrJ/+Bmze+GsgPCMno+laWjK/JKN7u3ij2X2WFlijirFRTzYOF+uBrGn Gux22JV2cqFWdIOcj7/L0pct2nexx/FUNTuKMBN8Zjpmx4xNlemJqT4FZdc+fwUL V6uPt+ZvGZymvoPc0LrkOb1CAP2ObQsZsCSrvbxFooIYnvCfVLOJX/qC8E5jSHNb RRyOhc4ueaHEqZ5Wzp30Hqp/fmC5GfAITmnCyNEcgypazWkQGLPHlaLwr8o+4Qkk AnGPOazhGF8qhjclAVy36LkndfK4x2d/+vYgHCrdM+vRDUQddeKDKAgescKBtDPQ 8t9tIJrGUiJBDolya3OOYh+/MR2fQXAmfPfCq70cIaMUm6+9YX49Vc+hadWhapbg hS5eMtiRIy69UC04KVwhJgtjumLb3Hhv9xY+sg3x+3zyhuNfd5YW+xiUba/cygwU 6fFHtkjIIcG4lECTdCl1zdiThji/mlnfhigS6qV5dk9e0hmr/dWTdgQZ1SI7LUUZ 6U1TPs0VFNlMfK72gKFkWz2THYDX1sRxaXuoBpi3V1rl4DUSTKg= =f3iC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gAhwdMfKH1PfamJOkqvsQs9RPRXggz30g-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:48:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE88A120873 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5950ef9f-060c-6836-9510-2d33fdca733b@bluepopcorn.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZQjfZwRMRGQKtQ2wXFPBp4Ddo4gywxm3z" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Considerations for modern COMSEC protocol design X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 21:23:28 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ZQjfZwRMRGQKtQ2wXFPBp4Ddo4gywxm3z Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="5JPixZ2Y2MmNMngEf2V2Y8zs3JQPy19Nr"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Jim Fenton , model-t@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Considerations for modern COMSEC protocol design References: <09e09f3d-9889-897d-7adb-561b2f5458af@cs.tcd.ie> <5950ef9f-060c-6836-9510-2d33fdca733b@bluepopcorn.net> In-Reply-To: <5950ef9f-060c-6836-9510-2d33fdca733b@bluepopcorn.net> --5JPixZ2Y2MmNMngEf2V2Y8zs3JQPy19Nr Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C03A82BA5E1A85C1FC268814" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C03A82BA5E1A85C1FC268814 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 17/02/2020 21:15, Jim Fenton wrote: > I'm somewhat less of a fan of opportunistic security;=20 Yeah, I think it's fair to say that very reasonable people do have differing opinions about OS. (That might mean that Ekr and Chris were wise to say less about it than unwise me would naturally emit:-) > before deciding > that the capabilities required for an active attack are harder to mount= , > you need to consider the threat model. Consider that there are several > countries that have been launching downgrade attacks against SMTP > STARTTLS on a substantial fraction of their outgoing traffic [1]. And > that doesn't even consider more targeted attacks against specific clien= ts. Sure, [1] is a fine paper and yes such attacks have been mounted. However, I don't think there was ever a point in time when it'd have been possible to seriously argue that *everyone* MUST turn on TLS authentication in STARTTLS - that just isn't going to happen all at once at all MTAs. Whereas, it was entirely possible to encourage everyone to at least turn on TLS, and enough people have now done that that I think MTA-STS is now quite credible. (Noting that MTA-STS comes with the testing and reporting stuff which I'd argue is also maybe needed in that case.) 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for your note. I feel like both of these attacks fall into the category of "local compromise" and thus are in a distinct bucket from Web tracking. On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 11:18 AM T=C3=B6ma Gavrichenkov wrote: > Peace, > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 8:32 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > And here is our text on Web Tracking > > The text doesn't mention a potential side channel issue. E.g. today, > the world's largest user activity tracker is also the world's largest > Web browser vendor, so in theory, they technically (I'm not saying > "legally") don't need cookies at all. Other side channels exist, e.g. > a DDoS protection provider who happens to also provide a VPN phone > app. > > -- > T=C3=B6ma > --000000000000cc6489059ecc5274 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for your note. I feel like both of these attacks fa= ll into the category of "local compromise" and thus are in a dist= inct bucket from Web tracking.

On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 11:18 AM T=C3=B6m= a Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.com> wrote:
Pe= ace,

On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 8:32 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> And here is our text on Web Tracking

The text doesn't mention a potential side channel issue.=C2=A0 E.g. tod= ay,
the world's largest user activity tracker is also the world's large= st
Web browser vendor, so in theory, they technically (I'm not saying
"legally") don't need cookies at all.=C2=A0 Other side channe= ls exist, e.g.
a DDoS protection provider who happens to also provide a VPN phone
app.

--
T=C3=B6ma
--000000000000cc6489059ecc5274-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:49:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A37120882 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:48:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5h_kDHpT_JTx for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 811C5120807 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id w17so9466541ybm.1 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:48:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9yBhjNQ6jcVj20AsM+249/EImEcdEBrcF1hmHDRvMXw=; b=UdbHxKW55RHbxGVu9AJAs7JiLeAVSk/nJb3XXoNEOTWYlb/amUX9iLAy0Y3Z2eeiSD Ad5YxpAJPBi8vzzFdCGNY9qmDZtQHOypGSHfHwKJ3sLwotwnMjk/XSMe0eGziyDm9HwQ dSmy51WIk+O/b2ooDvJ8UOPNLQD8foaoIdGqNSCmWqW2q4Izc5t3skRZCBetG96i0R1S VPnUm/W0rEaG18m+C8OloCTELY8OpjTvLRvVm3zC110fZmVseEdg8GhJAqu6aonLwVl5 op6t7MfBQqjyPGYjpjQLxfkcCkujcNo527k8YJbKRwaH85lo62F6P6RW2xA5pkhTYLpi 2Y0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9yBhjNQ6jcVj20AsM+249/EImEcdEBrcF1hmHDRvMXw=; b=QDQ9Yn9OFXzJK7OZIPInQqePJBuXRMH7L8Bvg4L4grbRToyGIeQvBwRHOi0KjdPqvE QjR8VIjcMYPeuVAxQLnJcbuAnAIWAKs8h1M017UR9hvY3AHJVGFpfsKqnOwVrMuUDVPg 65fldPhcRSiawyhTB4/VvZlML/qWiHLfmDWuoB6y0YWYVISzFtQzfZFUdLosMbOmmVH3 SeZBydk6ge/YVlaQ8fk9/L82DYfqu8yQNq/Y+Y7oC8iDAeR4ug4evTemYWBXHMp2r7LD PcFB2vesPNuUkvu8jk0Eg5yjIbSpBoSYP0ABn4JzYYxqXCy+rthY5DKySgYSnr8zdNtF hgOw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUdgPK3HEKO6IkbylJPI6KXjSywbDW9LRq0RD6B7mKpANeVFgM3 CRDoTZwuRSq5pyIkyd810SMRWPp3pnW1S1Oi+n6eZg6x X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz6Ecr0sfGWIyooFjNwgZzUiCYaVlWS7zAyZmoBHLTHN4JHur0qSWmp8xH1YzomOjz8h9A5PWBap9EuptZygmc= X-Received: by 2002:a25:889:: with SMTP id 131mr16995032ybi.497.1581976114474; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:48:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 00:48:23 +0300 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000058b364059ecc849e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Web Tracking X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 21:48:37 -0000 --00000000000058b364059ecc849e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peace, On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 12:34 AM Eric Rescorla wrote: > Thanks for your note. I feel like both of these attacks fall into the > category of "local compromise" and thus are in a distinct bucket from Web > tracking. > There are different shades of "local" on the user's machine. E.g. I think one of the purposes of QLOG was to provide transparency about what applications are doing by resurrecting the side reporting channel (which existed ad-hoc before the applications began to carry their own encryption stacks) to the system. I personally feel there are different *scopes* of tracking rather than different types. The difference is basically that we won't be able to find a MECE segmentation which won't be biased. -- T=C3=B6ma > --00000000000058b364059ecc849e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peace,

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 12:34 AM Eric Rescorla <= ;ekr@r= tfm.com> wrote:
Thanks for your note. I feel like both of these attacks fall into the = category of "local compromise" and thus are in a distinct bucket = from Web tracking.

There are different shades of "local" on the = user's machine.=C2=A0 E.g. I think one of the purposes of QLOG was to p= rovide transparency about what applications are doing by resurrecting the s= ide reporting channel (which existed ad-hoc before the applications began t= o carry their own encryption stacks) to the system.
=
I personally feel there are different *scopes* = of tracking rather than different types.=C2=A0 The difference is basically = that we won't be able to find a MECE segmentation which won't be bi= ased.

--
T=C3=B6ma
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=
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 1:48 PM T=C3= =B6ma Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Peace,

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 12:34 AM Eric Rescorla = <ek= r@rtfm.com> wrote:
Thanks for your note. I feel like both of these= attacks fall into the category of "local compromise" and thus ar= e in a distinct bucket from Web tracking.

There are different shades of &q= uot;local" on the user's machine.=C2=A0 E.g. I think one of the pu= rposes of QLOG was to provide transparency about what applications are doin= g by resurrecting the side reporting channel (which existed ad-hoc before t= he applications began to carry their own encryption stacks) to the system.<= /div>

I personally feel there = are different *scopes* of tracking rather than different types.=C2=A0 The d= ifference is basically that we won't be able to find a MECE segmentatio= n which won't be biased.

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">I don't really agree with this. Web Tracking = uses existing Web APIs in an unexpected (and largely undesirable) way. It i= s a totally different threat model from the attacker running malicious code= on the user's machine.

Anyway, I'm not sure debating this is that useful= , as we're not writing a document here; my note was merely my descripti= on of a specific topic. If you'd like to write your own description of = some set of threats, you should go ahead.

-Ekr

--0000000000008cff47059eccbaaf-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:49:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23358120048 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:13:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LVIc_-w0v5Op for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:13:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc31.google.com (mail-yw1-xc31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1F0C120041 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:13:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc31.google.com with SMTP id 192so8551839ywy.0 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:13:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1YMYCpW0N7RtxChBlHWIz2jgSnk5ul/Tjy0F+fXadfQ=; b=vPuzLrfgbEi3nR7bAJR8+aMN+U9oOav+AN4w0e+D1OYhiiMDwP5ZRBbvr0bhQMESEp f6faaHjCKa2UBzj3wa0mdwX9Z4NIHOgxvp3LwF4hrboKJc/O1302vWlM/8CgnSNidC5p czihGYM7Q9NQFsidPSRAHxtyQODX6k5H8Jl7sL4AuxQ8je/vVbneF2q9rlShFeVTO4LK 0VslLJ9o8wn/Ok5Bm4s8BnWmKXJLQoxPQidVYOFrLUxSTSa7ZaKPs+QFCNm0HfynFtfw Dw3Kq/B0+pxFZzxH7bnIyZUIgxYPbzW7cxsqN8+Re2DS+7mJiSRcBdXRNkXMztDHqtDM G+eg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1YMYCpW0N7RtxChBlHWIz2jgSnk5ul/Tjy0F+fXadfQ=; b=ec4g/UTeIXn+HtfLxpG2YupfSuE7Ny2Wf1SbnkI1jVTfc4UayF/xbInan930cJwCms oPeJ7QlhkJ/xEiRiNYcFKxXFT6itRIYsqCQ+0oM/NxXyUFx4ty5qRESYN8Sley3s1u4x NbIzgiKK8A8UlNrkzWPa7M492LyN0YifAFoZbiGJxVAl4gua5EX/6Posootq9yn+lzGM 6ec7CicO7YYw4MMq6uMTweHs/r5/NWvkvYAsd+b6ImgN/1nD9RBGk0V+667hMCcA/WHA VhgFvHAtFykJD+htClTBxjKdkxYVfILbPR4bqVFTC9qCfNQ5JY31aetrn410eotvrslF d/3g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVsXNnv4kJJ2j5rP7uI1WAyd9f3VzCkgCDMFJZXcozBKTa8bYfa h1yaCYx0kpMJ2wUQonQzkM1F4u7Dm94Q8pFpqQ8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwMzsoDnwQfgnccUbzfQIxPpgcttr7Zm4iiZRZl0KYwCSUxDDTppX6lm0B83FQyTd+VAyr20pcCKPKXJkRd3/Q= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:f245:: with SMTP id b66mr14045732ywf.102.1581977594355; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:13:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 01:13:02 +0300 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008de341059eccdc38" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Web Tracking X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:13:18 -0000 --0000000000008de341059eccdc38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peace, On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 1:03 AM Eric Rescorla wrote: > There are different shades of "local" on the user's machine. [..] >> > > [..] Web Tracking uses existing Web APIs in an unexpected (and largely > undesirable) way. It is a totally different threat model from the attacke= r > running malicious code on the user's machine. > Does (or does not) the concept we discuss here include running malicious frontend JS code on the user's machine? -- T=C3=B6ma > --0000000000008de341059eccdc38 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peace,

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 1:03 AM Eric Rescorla <= ekr@rt= fm.com> wrote:
=
There are different shades of "l= ocal" on the user's machine. [..]
[..] Web Tracking uses existing Web= APIs in an unexpected (and largely undesirable) way. It is a totally diffe= rent threat model from the attacker running malicious code on the user'= s machine.

=
Does (or does not) the concept we discuss here include ru= nning malicious frontend JS code on the user's machine?

--
T=C3=B6ma
--0000000000008de341059eccdc38-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:49:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7977120041 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:21:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cIfqPy-tWFRr for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31C18120048 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id z18so12979418lfe.2 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:21:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RHS+wMSn3vayOTKCJsEUpJHSszF81IIJJWCzfE5+Cxs=; b=ZZSOTYasBpIl6N75UNTExf7BArOYruvxMdJPnmf9CMKqNT4DkpBFdKmits5O/wbXfP BKtaSuSIwzrtSDhRbvYPsj69Z1cI3sx1aPbtuwxhqUeyRL61UVzOjqg2PCG3Egz1a6Kl 3A+HatXMY6i00DmFKomTQ1mepGv5Z2WMbiZp5GVEZOswvBhhFu6k6yFihnKbuBMrleMY WqMW93YodT6HJZtOeLuY6v1z2rgsKJoyghWDw6mRVR7LvLH5s1ypFhUXUcy2KDk7YJ4e 5t8Zj3PyCoclr/h5AAhY1LXlkjrysZQxxN5vWq6gAhy7M1BpRqdcKn7nnua8kPjp1j6G lJew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RHS+wMSn3vayOTKCJsEUpJHSszF81IIJJWCzfE5+Cxs=; b=JbRrGaiRubdeytEu6489k4GHP5zSZq8154y5FFj4Hdb7EOx+g20c/xjb9g4jUhD6To OwNqVqFmnUBADrUFowekFpi0SQYCCGwhdtLLfehvjEcPG9+TbmZei1Vp9FHe3HokZxPg KFM/Fi+CDlaEfdfnBecSdWn4z0RmijoL43j52YFzdpA5wJ35XVMNBTHmPz9Y+NYc4RWw QJUHtmsfHlZn7Z+IKuhuA553Byr6wlWSSM230GGarF3jJIuEuvAb8PpDUptg/YnuxXsq Frs/uVgmnBhK1yXOkkJlmatbnoCatCtzlQTwCF5RCAmqpTHQaA/D8N/5OJjENpvaHA9i 2l+A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWXwbEh02v6hCgxNrZ8Th9/q+rRtOOuimu8xr3qVgwBIrbySqhZ vRAvDy7CGozAZQ+L0zvuokLupzpQW4aQUsqsYHj79Kwa X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzQhxrYc4RcxowwSl8VQ1LTMPME5dYTJesNbrLc/MA7NAOaBS/CKeDMLzNTgCV5VjSllCw8rCKSgrg/I46DL/E= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:64:: with SMTP id i4mr8879970lfo.55.1581978078444; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:21:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:20:41 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= Cc: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000068901f059eccf9ea" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Web Tracking X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:21:23 -0000 --00000000000068901f059eccf9ea Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 2:13 PM T=C3=B6ma Gavrichenkov = wrote: > Peace, > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 1:03 AM Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> There are different shades of "local" on the user's machine. [..] >>> >> >> [..] Web Tracking uses existing Web APIs in an unexpected (and largely >> undesirable) way. It is a totally different threat model from the attack= er >> running malicious code on the user's machine. >> > > Does (or does not) the concept we discuss here include running malicious > frontend JS code on the user's machine? > Well, I can't speak for "we", but from the perspective of a browser manufacturer, the threat model includes malicious JS. -Ekr --00000000000068901f059eccf9ea Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 2:13 PM T=C3= =B6ma Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Peace,

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 1:03 AM Eric Rescorla &= lt;ekr= @rtfm.com> wrote:
There are diffe= rent shades of "local" on the user's machine. [..]

[..] Web Trac= king uses existing Web APIs in an unexpected (and largely undesirable) way.= It is a totally different threat model from the attacker running malicious= code on the user's machine.

Does (or does not) the concept we d= iscuss here include running malicious frontend JS code on the user's ma= chine?

Well, I can't speak = for "we", but from the perspective of a browser manufacturer, the= threat model includes malicious JS.

-Ekr
--00000000000068901f059eccf9ea-- From nobody Tue Feb 18 03:39:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186BE12008D for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 03:39:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fLWNKQJ3SUkD for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 03:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from secgw1.intern.tuwien.ac.at (secgw1.intern.tuwien.ac.at [IPv6:2001:629:1005:30::71]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 350BC120073 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: mbx13b.intern.tuwien.ac.at (2001:629:1005:30::62) To mbx13c.intern.tuwien.ac.at (2001:629:1005:30::63) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Considerations for modern COMSEC protocol design X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 11:39:36 -0000 thanks EKR for the concise summary. Some minor additions/comments/thoughts on the traffic analysis paragraph and on e2e aspects below. On 2/17/20 6:06 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > As promised... > > -Ekr and Chris > > [...] > > TRAFFIC ANALYSIS > RFC 3552; Section 3.2.1 describes how the absence of TLS or other > transport-layer encryption may lead to obvious confidentiality > violations against passive attackers. However, recent trends in > traffic analysis indicate encryption alone may be insufficient > protection for some types of application data [1]. Encrypted traffic > metadata, especially message size, In addition, message timing, -sequence, -patterns are the features most useful and commonly available whenever attacking encrypted (and potentially aggregated) protocol traffic. Worth mentioning... > can leak information about the > underlying plaintext. DNS queries and responses are particularly > at risk given their size distributions. Recent protocols account > for this leakage by supporting padding, either generically in the > transport protocol (QUIC and TLS), or specifically in the application > protocol (EDNS(0) padding option for DNS messages). Time synchronization protocols can be mentioned here as a use case, too. Currently none of the existing TS protocols is adequately protected against timing attacks (assumptions concerning link diversity typically fail whenever the attacker is well-positioned, e.g., on the majority of the system's few access links). And timing becomes crucial for many systems. Moreover, the accuracy of (today's) network-based timesync depends on deterministic message patterns, sizes and timing. Consequently (a) any attempt to secure/obscure these messages impairs on timesync accuracy and (b) timesync messages can be spotted easily within encrypted traffic (even including IPsec-tunneled timesync, despite TFC and obscuring traffic - references on request). At least a note could be added that subliminal channels do exist and should be considered when designing (security) protocols. I'll try to go into more detail with the malware draft. Finally, somebody mentioned during Friday's telco that "we don't know who provides security". Imo this is where the threat landscape changed most since 2003. RFC3552 does not even include the definition of an endpoint (imo because by the time of writing it was too obvious what's meant). Security frameworks, containers, virtual guests, clouds, etc., changed the rules of the game. They help but their transparency can be painful in a security context. So it boils down to a (again, imo) central question that the CLESS endpoint taxonomy draft tackles to a certain extent: "what does end-to-end mean"? Is it meaningful/mandatory that future protocol/framework security specifications are forced to make explicit what their perception or concept of end-to-end is? Rewording this slightly: Users and applications should have a right to identify/query which underlying layers provide (e2e) security, i.e., where e2e security really ends. And, in addition, which layers/frameworks/etc. (either local or remote) sit in between and could break end-to-end security without being noticed. br Joachim From nobody Tue Feb 18 04:28:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74EFC12013B for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 04:28:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isoc.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qMt7RIdmg8aP for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 04:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM12-BN8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam12on2085.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.237.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0990120103 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 04:28:27 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=QIsz5a2KP1xCjjTCEON2gSOl8nRRlET4WPPDYQ5wiA8CE4ew1+1dnJazzPCfdegh6SlPIlcT97UnBeWrsjtseZhHbth83ykvmXepPI0+bUqRjnfDdkib+FRnTWRV6c0ClBqzJDlvLbhpqYL+CpVItfbdkkBRkIya661yb8Kmi2eV9gkJwzpnA9bGt05W+uz/sTgN6nZrDEXw/o962lq0LX1MELIaTz4NfRT5x/0SCEatDc4/0cM+7IIDDDkgXIOQMFuqiauGYNS7MrQgJZUcIhS9fO8NvltLbWF2SypLo/zGDiyjA1jRS1x0KfaWfVh/5myfabUxCJTYVpmzbgXGXQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=xjTI1wHccSy07VO/IyGKe9f6hT1F2I4EUSiSCL/0ufw=; b=YP41bNGyAZhSTl/Dzrw68YlerCmcdg/Owp3PM6wik8rJAFb30S3FK5tlVerFUyYTIgU/XzXFK4fGovfLFTDrhlSNbLu9nT+kbeT36yscAcjIfbi3F6Fql0zEAXXC6z6jncgxlIcW6F/kZY6dhtcSnjwQLqcbREo/8WoQuXcm7r7RqYyrBtEcGUACP2kqGoUUgjY9Tkzr7jOD0IKItQDGeh7J9QTMw5P/FfCSocDUb5+Qdik6MbcURFDpxbRXnKMylhewmbcGJgd9tmBnLJON7ohFA+PFsIuSBkrKxnjSiOHmf09Wc4NIxFfX1QfhX/5AORf/ejgMW6cDf7uDRjYFyw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=isoc.org; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=isoc.org; dkim=pass header.d=isoc.org; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isoc.org; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=xjTI1wHccSy07VO/IyGKe9f6hT1F2I4EUSiSCL/0ufw=; b=0kvkSMAh5WSCT6fAHJsXHWHcimRbB5FVnv1Ic869gfmsKxxOu9xPX2bJSuNA8oapCDoxuZqF0Htp3r3uJSwCzIMvw5Hsliatnr02BAIuQIqHFCJGg2Y4Q8G7Zf7zMkUrW7lT3ufSjG+GYD6ubbqEtfliuquRRTR0MyPQjWo/c3s= Received: from BL0PR06MB4772.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (52.132.0.222) by BL0PR06MB5043.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.167.233.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2729.25; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 12:28:24 +0000 Received: from BL0PR06MB4772.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f0d3:21c8:5720:a272]) by BL0PR06MB4772.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f0d3:21c8:5720:a272%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2729.032; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 12:28:24 +0000 From: Robin Wilton To: "model-t@iab.org" Thread-Topic: A disclaimer... 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Tue, 18 Feb 2020 06:28:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 06:27:35 -0800 Message-ID: To: Joachim Fabini Cc: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004cd0d5059eda7b8e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Considerations for modern COMSEC protocol design X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:28:19 -0000 --0000000000004cd0d5059eda7b8e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:39 AM Joachim Fabini wrote: > thanks EKR for the concise summary. Some minor > additions/comments/thoughts on the traffic analysis paragraph and on e2e > aspects below. > > On 2/17/20 6:06 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > As promised... > > > > -Ekr and Chris > > > > [...] > > > > TRAFFIC ANALYSIS > > RFC 3552; Section 3.2.1 describes how the absence of TLS or other > > transport-layer encryption may lead to obvious confidentiality > > violations against passive attackers. However, recent trends in > > traffic analysis indicate encryption alone may be insufficient > > protection for some types of application data [1]. Encrypted traffic > > metadata, especially message size, > > In addition, message timing, -sequence, -patterns are the features most > useful and commonly available whenever attacking encrypted (and > potentially aggregated) protocol traffic. Worth mentioning... > Yes, I agree with this. > > can leak information about the > > underlying plaintext. DNS queries and responses are particularly > > at risk given their size distributions. Recent protocols account > > for this leakage by supporting padding, either generically in the > > transport protocol (QUIC and TLS), or specifically in the application > > protocol (EDNS(0) padding option for DNS messages). > > Time synchronization protocols can be mentioned here as a use case, too. > Currently none of the existing TS protocols is adequately protected > against timing attacks (assumptions concerning link diversity typically > fail whenever the attacker is well-positioned, e.g., on the majority of > the system's few access links). And timing becomes crucial for many > systems. > > Moreover, the accuracy of (today's) network-based timesync depends on > deterministic message patterns, sizes and timing. Consequently (a) any > attempt to secure/obscure these messages impairs on timesync accuracy > and (b) timesync messages can be spotted easily within encrypted traffic > (even including IPsec-tunneled timesync, despite TFC and obscuring > traffic - references on request). > > At least a note could be added that subliminal channels do exist and > should be considered when designing (security) protocols. I'll try to go > into more detail with the malware draft. > Hmm.... What do you think protocol designers would do with this information? Every modern comsec protocol I am familiar with has zillions of bits that can be freely chosen, and though there's been a bunch of work on deransomization I don't think we're ready to change that. > Finally, somebody mentioned during Friday's telco that "we don't know > who provides security". Imo this is where the threat landscape changed > most since 2003. RFC3552 does not even include the definition of an > endpoint (imo because by the time of writing it was too obvious what's > meant). Security frameworks, containers, virtual guests, clouds, etc., > changed the rules of the game. They help but their transparency can be > painful in a security context. > > So it boils down to a (again, imo) central question that the CLESS > endpoint taxonomy draft tackles to a certain extent: "what does > end-to-end mean"? > > Is it meaningful/mandatory that future protocol/framework security > specifications are forced to make explicit what their perception or > concept of end-to-end is? Rewording this slightly: Users and > applications should have a right to identify/query which underlying > layers provide (e2e) security, i.e., where e2e security really ends. > And, in addition, which layers/frameworks/etc. (either local or remote) > sit in between and could break end-to-end security without being noticed. This seems like a kind of normative statement that 3552 generally strove to avoid, and I think should remain out of scope here. I think it would be a good idea to explain that the endpoint you are talking to now is probably really distributed, but I don't think we should be taking a position on the users rights vis-a-vis that. -Ekr --0000000000004cd0d5059eda7b8e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:39 AM Joach= im Fabini <Joachim.Fabini@tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
thanks EKR for the concise summary. Some m= inor
additions/comments/thoughts on the traffic analysis paragraph and on e2e aspects below.

On 2/17/20 6:06 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> As promised...
>
> -Ekr and Chris
>
> [...]
>
> TRAFFIC ANALYSIS
> RFC 3552; Section 3.2.1 describes how the absence of TLS or other
> transport-layer encryption may lead to obvious confidentiality
> violations against passive attackers. However, recent trends in
> traffic analysis indicate encryption alone may be insufficient
> protection for some types of application data [1]. Encrypted traffic > metadata, especially message size,

In addition, message timing, -sequence, -patterns are the features most
useful and commonly available whenever attacking encrypted (and
potentially aggregated) protocol traffic. Worth mentioning...

Yes, I agree with this.


> can leak information about the
> underlying plaintext. DNS queries and responses are particularly
> at risk given their size distributions. Recent protocols account
> for this leakage by supporting padding, either generically in the
> transport protocol (QUIC and TLS), or specifically in the application<= br> > protocol (EDNS(0) padding option for DNS messages).

Time synchronization protocols can be mentioned here as a use case, too. Currently none of the existing TS protocols is adequately protected
against timing attacks (assumptions concerning link diversity typically
fail whenever the attacker is well-positioned, e.g., on the majority of
the system's few access links). And timing becomes crucial for many sys= tems.

Moreover, the accuracy of (today's) network-based timesync depends on deterministic message patterns, sizes and timing. Consequently (a) any
attempt to secure/obscure these messages impairs on timesync accuracy
and (b) timesync messages can be spotted easily within encrypted traffic (even including IPsec-tunneled timesync, despite TFC and obscuring
traffic - references on request).

At least a note could be added that subliminal channels do exist and
should be considered when designing (security) protocols. I'll try to g= o
into more detail with the malware draft.

Hmm.... What do you think protocol designers would do with this informati= on?
Every modern comsec protocol I am familiar with has zillions = of bits that can
be freely chosen, and though there's been a = bunch of work on deransomization
I don't think we're read= y to change that.

=C2=A0
Finally, somebody mentioned during Friday's telco that "we don'= ;t know
who provides security". Imo this is where the threat landscape changed=
most since 2003. RFC3552 does not even include the definition of an
endpoint (imo because by the time of writing it was too obvious what's<= br> meant). Security frameworks, containers, virtual guests, clouds, etc.,
changed the rules of the game. They help but their transparency can be
painful in a security context.

So it boils down to a (again, imo) central question that the CLESS
endpoint taxonomy draft tackles to a certain extent: "what does
end-to-end mean"?

Is it meaningful/mandatory that future protocol/framework security
specifications are forced to make explicit what their perception or
concept of end-to-end is? Rewording this slightly: Users and
applications should have a right to identify/query which underlying
layers provide (e2e) security, i.e., where e2e security really ends.
And, in addition, which layers/frameworks/etc. (either local or remote)
sit in between and could break end-to-end security without being noticed.

This seems like a kind of normative statement that 3552 generally str= ove to
avoid, and I think should remain out= of scope here. I think it would be a good
= idea to explain that the endpoint you are talking to now is probably really=
distributed, but I don't think we shou= ld be taking a position on the users
rights= vis-a-vis that.

-Ekr

--0000000000004cd0d5059eda7b8e-- From nobody Tue Feb 18 07:27:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6274120152 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 07:27:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=heapingbits.net header.b=AJC5bLac; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=RuqkzAdZ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xvWE8T5d24E7 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 07:27:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 364BA120130 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 07:27:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7677D747 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 10:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap4 ([10.202.2.54]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 18 Feb 2020 10:27:26 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heapingbits.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=U6cmMa/DA7sbdTdxKSsX0GM8IEg/l8V +4LvhuaY0fVo=; b=AJC5bLac8eRTEVUgj6QqqcljV3dZDc2Fb6a4CD1Wlvc6QRn gV6aSJ2aLMaFpD5jDOq2LlBK0MgHXcwDABFYQMNAtFBayHHWf3kcrbNgTILhnA9l 1Wp34PMnC5HPSYdzpCIyy2jFY9I5aSF0ukw1KxzyNShHUsX9dwymQdphjMv3aXkV J5a1S8NviVAUauiI/5c1X0e74mSMOlFmjjfmNSMmecNbWmzrtMiz2EVbbp2HPgjC 5KH0Wpivf+j32QZYUq5DFCWjwaIHFsWzo3kfDRSA1ZRy0HghbF4oALdH7byv2eYf zyBfbEzMR/YsDTtsDSZnW++fsGh/c6Xod72w/bg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=U6cmMa /DA7sbdTdxKSsX0GM8IEg/l8V+4LvhuaY0fVo=; b=RuqkzAdZ60rxQZukBB5tB3 vo1QeoYan/qIL0IHSvQFbUCVVf5IS27IfZH9IfkHVFgPAPv4calWCTfwqaBpQDEb aHoddm42rUbQE6beozE64TCRliTL1PEDx+b7LgR1XrsIXAb3q9By5duBe7Qp4XzG tUIzQMlVYMlX1CviQHRY/YosVtJiZT8c4RfrlUfyHlvqf/KsLEIVNxn+podtp7cR iF+P5tLyTuJh/WAjvtqd8QOsSADan6zp8ngdb9bdeX/ZhBFSzdSgrKo4L2kfxP66 hm+fyb9gko5jdERPQBtpjhsezdcD00PySy33Z4zJtovcell8pokvhF3RMXKEDpjQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrjeekgdejjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtre dtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdevhhhrihhsthhophhhvghrucghohhougdfuceotggrfies hhgvrghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehirggsrdhorhhgnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomheptggrfieshhgv rghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id DC0953C00A1; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 10:27:25 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-802-g7a41c81-fmstable-20200203v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 07:27:05 -0800 From: "Christopher Wood" To: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Considerations for modern COMSEC protocol design X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:27:30 -0000 On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, at 6:27 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:39 AM Joachim Fabini > wrote: > > thanks EKR for the concise summary. Some minor > > additions/comments/thoughts on the traffic analysis paragraph and on e2e > > aspects below. > > > > On 2/17/20 6:06 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > As promised... > > > > > > -Ekr and Chris > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > TRAFFIC ANALYSIS > > > RFC 3552; Section 3.2.1 describes how the absence of TLS or other > > > transport-layer encryption may lead to obvious confidentiality > > > violations against passive attackers. However, recent trends in > > > traffic analysis indicate encryption alone may be insufficient > > > protection for some types of application data [1]. Encrypted traffic > > > metadata, especially message size, > > > > In addition, message timing, -sequence, -patterns are the features most > > useful and commonly available whenever attacking encrypted (and > > potentially aggregated) protocol traffic. Worth mentioning... > > Yes, I agree with this. +1, though let's not get carried away. (The list can grow to thousands of features.) > > > can leak information about the > > > underlying plaintext. DNS queries and responses are particularly > > > at risk given their size distributions. Recent protocols account > > > for this leakage by supporting padding, either generically in the > > > transport protocol (QUIC and TLS), or specifically in the application > > > protocol (EDNS(0) padding option for DNS messages). > > > > Time synchronization protocols can be mentioned here as a use case, too. > > Currently none of the existing TS protocols is adequately protected > > against timing attacks (assumptions concerning link diversity typically > > fail whenever the attacker is well-positioned, e.g., on the majority of > > the system's few access links). And timing becomes crucial for many systems. > > > > Moreover, the accuracy of (today's) network-based timesync depends on > > deterministic message patterns, sizes and timing. Consequently (a) any > > attempt to secure/obscure these messages impairs on timesync accuracy > > and (b) timesync messages can be spotted easily within encrypted traffic > > (even including IPsec-tunneled timesync, despite TFC and obscuring > > traffic - references on request). > > > > At least a note could be added that subliminal channels do exist and > > should be considered when designing (security) protocols. I'll try to go > > into more detail with the malware draft. > > Hmm.... What do you think protocol designers would do with this information? > Every modern comsec protocol I am familiar with has zillions of bits that can > be freely chosen, and though there's been a bunch of work on deransomization > I don't think we're ready to change that. > > > Finally, somebody mentioned during Friday's telco that "we don't know > > who provides security". Imo this is where the threat landscape changed > > most since 2003. RFC3552 does not even include the definition of an > > endpoint (imo because by the time of writing it was too obvious what's > > meant). Security frameworks, containers, virtual guests, clouds, etc., > > changed the rules of the game. They help but their transparency can be > > painful in a security context. > > > > So it boils down to a (again, imo) central question that the CLESS > > endpoint taxonomy draft tackles to a certain extent: "what does > > end-to-end mean"? > > > > Is it meaningful/mandatory that future protocol/framework security > > specifications are forced to make explicit what their perception or > > concept of end-to-end is? Rewording this slightly: Users and > > applications should have a right to identify/query which underlying > > layers provide (e2e) security, i.e., where e2e security really ends. > > And, in addition, which layers/frameworks/etc. (either local or remote) > > sit in between and could break end-to-end security without being noticed. > > This seems like a kind of normative statement that 3552 generally strove to > avoid, and I think should remain out of scope here. I think it would be a good > idea to explain that the endpoint you are talking to now is probably really > distributed, but I don't think we should be taking a position on the users > rights vis-a-vis that. > > -Ekr > > -- > Model-t mailing list > Model-t@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t > From nobody Tue Feb 18 07:40:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6731120180 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 07:40:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S9nnJZ4x_z2h for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 07:40:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from secgw2.intern.tuwien.ac.at (secgw2.intern.tuwien.ac.at [IPv6:2001:629:1005:30::72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE56E1200EC for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 07:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from totemomail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by secgw2.intern.tuwien.ac.at (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 01IFeaiF001147; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:40:36 +0100 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by totemomail.intern.tuwien.ac.at (Totemo SMTP Server) with SMTP ID 708; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:40:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from edge13a.intern.tuwien.ac.at (edge13a.intern.tuwien.ac.at [IPv6:2001:629:1005:30::66]) by secgw2.intern.tuwien.ac.at (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 01IFeZCa001123 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:40:35 +0100 Received: from mbx13c.intern.tuwien.ac.at (2001:629:1005:30::63) by edge13a.intern.tuwien.ac.at (2001:629:1005:30::66) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:40:35 +0100 Received: from [128.131.67.210] (128.131.67.210) by mbx13c.intern.tuwien.ac.at (2001:629:1005:30::63) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:40:35 +0100 To: Eric Rescorla CC: References: From: Joachim Fabini Autocrypt: addr=Joachim.Fabini@tuwien.ac.at; keydata= xsFNBFzP9YwBEADLSwTOJGpr6+y+UQ2tko4lnJLfcazo3MHJq6w8CoOAeBhgvxHvksx48RpB JOculUcAP+Sr/dAsVJRvbrd3ZVFl5X+5rq5HqZtEER64JkZN3ZWwuZJ2cIPe8UrmPUCCSdDm Q2Ss3jWRYq+5bg9xG9pgRdfXQj4EzocE5+vnq1TEx5skuAK2pmntE29gCO8ICIO0qOtlNMyz UNPyb/wvVR/+8Umj5xO3kJrEjq7NpYCPP+I2nmRmrCVNQ+ruQGjHFbFzLCzeQj/Ln+vHJy3C O5qbBs/8aae2+7g/N642ODgXv78mg6k4r/yA2uCoeqirj9P6d/8qyhdU247oe+96FLwd4ly5 cHjmS5FEBhNsZKB3yPwod8phWwMZhPDro+ttkTRjL9CTmXspLFPlYwDqkuyEVMOHh24toFVI 0QukzYWLrMwY3ae0ni8DM5fcTQaFDWr4rqRcfGRhA66xxT4uUAX20q1VzWBO2fVUr0eB3Hwr FjCS7URAlsPFebuevgt1/pjSbcRk20TXPp//1qwh8GU03C6qy5iHB8coAsCwZec3S92YEdgM obdYgVhLPHOMd89IfldRASAConvQzI8WkiabzkMpL0donUUErNQ9RVFQ1NRoLJYIx2D0CMFN RW01q0xZFEKci+r/S2/YUkhXTXD4cEx4y3A4WCJPi0teSUW8owARAQABzSxKb2FjaGltIEZh YmluaSA8am9hY2hpbS5mYWJpbmlAdHV3aWVuLmFjLmF0PsLBgAQTAQgAKgIbIwUJCWYBgAUL CQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCXM/2+wIZAQAKCRCbDicB0srp1dEXEACLpHerJzi7 684Ixo6sgwQ0TM/oVV7unXIqFZuuZLMf4r609La++l0BXSmj6LtrIqZVXoFVRwIutEADmaKZ k2kc2zVaKWN/BM4/o8r0db/jOdElv8bbqsui1HYCA1KIKu2nNEMQd1axH0mzBUEFQaIoEPQP mQszQhKHw1ZgAjrsyvU7ZH9aHTboPvLURIAH0CBfgvnm+feFxl/rMBSLu5CJpff9cWA1inKX 1eEexy2tFR80NUSaLauRLC9j9Xe2q+7DLNAT16+5dgRt16bXlkUh4IMpG5k6vpyFu12vSfcB VHJZEKld9APoHoHdjgq7QSeyENfZU+XeAzT/U0fDvF7v392/Fnw7UfVNi5TW2DjiR1cf5ahG YNzfJlIRmiFAkGAxjA6LV6tidpr+KtKvgTh00JZoHVpd4f26/bRTuHXzZh/G36r1bo3qYaQQ mebj6HocdFofh4dN08zv9tiYfrn9uAScZ8JeNQQWb1fg8a2a3nnGLAQiqyFKiuklczA/wkcV ZklezqdO/8nhEhSmiGOLiVwCCdMOBwwBhhJc3iXNYt+pp/v+X/T6m10wwJrwF0JVaPsKqk/m XwCw3jCjcu6iBHPwxS5qmCyJJmBwqq8RtA+Bjdp4J1CIJN3cb+fDoteXBJHYSWYFNGSa9wC4 kSGpw/5LyucT7vSCSolwdC0YVc7BTQRcz/WMARAAyMkUJLJo7g0HwerlxK2kzncvpN0ACN+b Dq89kxJPpbUivE/5I8CTpYQUVBEIq7mvk5/vZj7NWiOdBqW7yx3pmnSuzVtIy7+SB9nVm4mZ InnHij8g1IQ5267C2x1jv93PdbGXFFeEHHg0h/4GjN//3ScyhKt0vf6tDPjGwkUe5tvpvTx7 NiCW2D5hk+tQf5FcvKhwFYCKC6b9DaIb19QgjuANo/g6is/n5M4CYiX+Pqx5j+J6NjG9hMLc 4GTSQur8Ix7LZ3G78z7zB1AdiJMCyeaqrYKTVWNsz1DB5MRiGl9Wz5Q9LZu070neMuoOHD+0 Aaud5JbI8YozvxwTbNN8/fV6byVWvCCmtd8ZZDKfQXgav2HvtejFlm0ix9MTl87+OUGbpLtm WIS/2qZtamrTVfv5dVlCM9ziHkkhV75nMr6X6h+tAaedboC7xIWR8bAC4HGk3KN1cmwjgy4D G87X+tYNmzhAQHioHEEvfklNXOIvU5coDzpdp/n9OxQxPlA5qC+BDSixQqsu5iTcPaA0iGij Ja3A7Wg69ybigctY22ICCvyUv8WgRoCWcHNfjI3sJULLk+SfygEALfgWQ9xKQI+L0M5h+Tq4 2RUpYVC2HKGtzQZ7YhSQcHu9NobA/4qVJcCF+tZXV5mPeMg5LHpmNhfSQRYgbk2KBvaqJw2D MbsAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCXM/1jAIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRCbDicB0srp1YnTD/0Qao7t3YNk Rc04ed1slc22Ned54huNF10TD5+QVSjfdjiMrlUNYznjqnMEdWDaHKclQS7WaBJO2GetSPFr Etk/IJ0bM+C9GjYh+kfqA0X45X8KC4/XLoARd4I+B4uLk+i0UbhlnL9sibVaIGG6IC6S1HGN M0yA9RJ0FPXl4/QV5JAkLNSDKCiyeFjACqExLk7HHNACrLO8Jr7IH8RDE3rlIEgdWxwTIs+9 GeLvMdtasnfEloZCsGb2proOu1QhMZlqoftLhtMzW+4lEmJnUAfxHZRivpjjlQVtWIQ03t6f txnqh4plL3gJsGV+y4ty4emTN9MJsDAyphkqKPqv29hJTyHoeixSG7G0KT/gO+JqTWm/7wwU d7xOW+WtjsXhNM5k5aJtTGpGAwC6QkKnodu+WUkYxpXJKU4cmEBguFQPCwTlFzh7+Jo98Vbh N9cJUQ5iJau00lDU3qJIcbsD06ccy1EoBjIiqAH59DnumrnP99J6iNj8yCxStc1TjA3dRReu +iOGwyoUlp48c3UlpK4BkSegtd2CA37xkiesebEUoRYiAld410PETVlHCQX/kBa6iAx4oEoG lS4E9h1XOCVa0fnJZfwq00WHUbT+P3E3/svKw63HccEuLHBETuowX1ECcGf7s6E9aaexLqbV jVz9rWWAUFG680+ewfjVKZjb5Q== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:40:34 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: mbx13b.intern.tuwien.ac.at (2001:629:1005:30::62) To mbx13c.intern.tuwien.ac.at (2001:629:1005:30::63) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] Considerations for modern COMSEC protocol design X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:40:43 -0000 On 2/18/20 3:27 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:39 AM Joachim Fabini > > wrote: > > thanks EKR for the concise summary. Some minor > additions/comments/thoughts on the traffic analysis paragraph and on e2e > aspects below. > > On 2/17/20 6:06 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > As promised... > > > > -Ekr and Chris > > > > [...] > > can leak information about the > > underlying plaintext. DNS queries and responses are particularly > > at risk given their size distributions. Recent protocols account > > for this leakage by supporting padding, either generically in the > > transport protocol (QUIC and TLS), or specifically in the application > > protocol (EDNS(0) padding option for DNS messages). > > Time synchronization protocols can be mentioned here as a use case, too. > Currently none of the existing TS protocols is adequately protected > against timing attacks (assumptions concerning link diversity typically > fail whenever the attacker is well-positioned, e.g., on the majority of > the system's few access links). And timing becomes crucial for many > systems. > > Moreover, the accuracy of (today's) network-based timesync depends on > deterministic message patterns, sizes and timing. Consequently (a) any > attempt to secure/obscure these messages impairs on timesync accuracy > and (b) timesync messages can be spotted easily within encrypted traffic > (even including IPsec-tunneled timesync, despite TFC and obscuring > traffic - references on request). > > At least a note could be added that subliminal channels do exist and > should be considered when designing (security) protocols. I'll try to go > into more detail with the malware draft. > > > Hmm.... What do you think protocol designers would do with this information? I suppose your question concerns just the last sentence? The former statements on time synchronization should warn protocol designers that they must not rely on the timing of messages and that encryption/security does not help in this respect, either. In Industry and in the academic community it is a common misbelief that encryption helps against timing attacks (can reference several publications relying on such assumptions). People are not aware of this pitfall and it is fair to warn. > Every modern comsec protocol I am familiar with has zillions of bits > that can > be freely chosen, and though there's been a bunch of work on deransomization > I don't think we're ready to change that. Still: the less degrees of freedom protocol designers provide in their freely selectable bits, the better. My concern is not so much about end-to-end subliminal channels, but about the zillions intermediate layers between pretended "end-to-end" and the actual security layer below. > Finally, somebody mentioned during Friday's telco that "we don't know > who provides security". Imo this is where the threat landscape changed > most since 2003. RFC3552 does not even include the definition of an > endpoint (imo because by the time of writing it was too obvious what's > meant). Security frameworks, containers, virtual guests, clouds, etc., > changed the rules of the game. They help but their transparency can be > painful in a security context. > > So it boils down to a (again, imo) central question that the CLESS > endpoint taxonomy draft tackles to a certain extent: "what does > end-to-end mean"? > > Is it meaningful/mandatory that future protocol/framework security > specifications are forced to make explicit what their perception or > concept of end-to-end is? Rewording this slightly: Users and > applications should have a right to identify/query which underlying > layers provide (e2e) security, i.e., where e2e security really ends. > And, in addition, which layers/frameworks/etc. (either local or remote) > sit in between and could break end-to-end security without being > noticed. > > > This seems like a kind of normative statement that 3552 generally strove to > avoid, and I think should remain out of scope here. I think it would be > a good > idea to explain that the endpoint you are talking to now is probably really > distributed, but I don't think we should be taking a position on the users > rights vis-a-vis that. No need to involve users. The advise to protocol designers could be as simple as: minimize the number of layers between the application that needs end-to-end security and the actual {encryption/integrity protection} layer. The fewer uncertainty factors there are in between, the better. >From a purely academic perspective I'd love to have a traceroute-kind mechanism that allows users/applications to trace e2e all layers, modules, frameworks involved in an e2e communication. But I guess this truly exceeds the scope of model-t. ;) thanks, Joachim From nobody Tue Feb 18 14:55:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D46CC12083A for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:55:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YRACdKk0A-Oz for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:55:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 753DF120802 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Aj6iKK7COBjNi7I69ltqFGxnH4a6LtkAn" Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] minor edits to proposed charter X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 22:55:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Aj6iKK7COBjNi7I69ltqFGxnH4a6LtkAn Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="sym7Eud4teYufNGRZ536E2tgJi1N56L9K"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "model-t@iab.org" Message-ID: <0f09c051-7712-86b2-ef19-92010ac70f9c@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: minor edits to proposed charter --sym7Eud4teYufNGRZ536E2tgJi1N56L9K Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------84EFD6DF6FF4FC2342893976" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------84EFD6DF6FF4FC2342893976 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I made a couple of edits to the proposed programme charter as per the call from last Friday. [1] If you get a chance, please take a peek and let me know if I mucked that up. It'd be great if people could have a look at that in the next day, as we have this on the agenda for the IAB call tomorrow at 2130 UTC. I'm not sure if the IAB will want to approve formation of the programme or ponder it some more, but no harm to have the charter text is as good shape as we can either way. Any of sending an email to the list, creating a github issue or submitting a PR are fine ways to do that. If you only get to review it later though that's ok too - esp if you create an issue or a PR then that'll not get forgotten and can be processed later. Cheers, S. [1] https://github.com/intarchboard/model-t-charter/blob/master/model-t-chart= er-00.md --------------84EFD6DF6FF4FC2342893976 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t 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APjAAAUq0vCZrkBI5fvjDMxMRLpDe1LtMHJbidW4/rkgrbOwuo/CP7wb SVC5wLv5WC2EWoKqzMtkaHigaSlSC7SvMBoFRjuSbw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwxPYMJDt0ZEr2vIJEouvMHm88/u+KNpR8NUJ0AofaPYIRCE1YRXqlSyJeTv0cmf60K+eyhpmLRHBFMjY6rSE0= X-Received: by 2002:aca:c4d2:: with SMTP id u201mr5237198oif.54.1582129433887; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:23:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158091269146.12836.1358160378481604455.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <012f01d5e73a$1822a220$4867e660$@internetpolicyadvisors.com> In-Reply-To: <012f01d5e73a$1822a220$4867e660$@internetpolicyadvisors.com> From: Mark McFadden Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 10:23:42 -0600 Message-ID: To: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e54725059ef036bd" Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless-01.txt X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 16:23:57 -0000 --000000000000e54725059ef036bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" A new version of I-D, draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Mark McFadden and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless Revision: 01 Title: Endpoint Taxonomy for CLESS Document date: 2020-02-05 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 17 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless-01 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless-01 Abstract: A separate document [I-D:draft-taddei-smart-cless-introduction] (CLESS) attempts to establish the capabilities and limitations of endpoint-only security solutions and explore potential alternative approaches. That document discusses endpoints in general terms. It has been suggested that there are classes of endpoints that have different characteristics. Those classes may have completely different threat landscapes and the endpoints may have completely different security capabilities. In support of the work on CLESS, this document provides a taxonomy of endpoints that is intended to provide a foundation for further work on CLESS and research on approaches to providing endpoint security alternatives in a diverse group of settings. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --000000000000e54725059ef036bd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A new version of I-D, draft-mcf= adden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Mark McFadden and posted to the IETF rep= ository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint= -taxonomy-for-cless
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A001
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Endpoint Taxonomy for CLESS
Document date:=C2=A0 2020-02-05
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 17
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/= draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless-01.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mcfadden-smar= t-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-ta= xonomy-for-cless-01
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mcfadden-= smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft= -mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless-01

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A separate document [I-D:draft-taddei-smart-cless-introduction= ]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(CLESS) attempts to establish the capabilities and limitations= of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0endpoint-only security solutions and explore potential alterna= tive
=C2=A0 =C2=A0approaches. That document discusses endpoints in general terms= . It
=C2=A0 =C2=A0has been suggested that there are classes of endpoints that ha= ve
=C2=A0 =C2=A0different characteristics. Those classes may have completely =C2=A0 =C2=A0different threat landscapes and the endpoints may have complet= ely
=C2=A0 =C2=A0different security capabilities. In support of the work on CLE= SS,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0this document provides a taxonomy of endpoints that is intende= d to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0provide a foundation for further work on CLESS and research on=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0approaches to providing endpoint security alternatives in a di= verse
=C2=A0 =C2=A0group of settings.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


--000000000000e54725059ef036bd-- From nobody Wed Feb 19 08:27:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E7A1208B8 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:27:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VVcVubTj_A9o for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x332.google.com (mail-ot1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BF5B12089D for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x332.google.com with SMTP id 77so698273oty.6 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:27:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=TdHA8Vovg0nIRrcyw+5mXhnc4BkaBfEwoXI2Y3aRk1o=; b=sqmQ+d6vCMxAXlYvltt66kYbpSGAyQrf5U7QquT+mArTL0EIPGXiUBmtMVOdRirP5A /pZb7ZL/wYF/+wuRox+zxZlZYD5URGQk699tXduhBCI/yL1H1YHDbUjMWQU+6YOSBWXu uV/Uu71+tFiXbsI7CkKZx39feGKbH3dnTYz0WtKoiusf8et7mKUJEbLzwTHBhkLlRlAL 05hzj9OXfOFKIl9O//GDrkia4eHtmV6npRtaBDvxv4joqyride42UC3XF9zXndzHgADR AmvVyh/LRODxrEjHZpu5UUJ7E7tLFK6Ee/GwnIXAcaMuEFf5sWd6h/TjCtSJQv+ac6z/ 8SMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=TdHA8Vovg0nIRrcyw+5mXhnc4BkaBfEwoXI2Y3aRk1o=; b=d7Gqva6Q2pYyiZmlKVPgcDd3x8xjgxxAUsAeDwKUXyJdyF6jzid8xTLOVxWoOKulQa ua6Tc9pPbEXxuRCcFZoSVjOfWrQofAOk+Twga9lKOgin1wv7sODcCzveHS3u/ai00Dh0 TbNuEyUu6SSVx8yj1jmmGI/UWKyXMAjXVr+ExJPg9/8oGp8L6NdVmut1dd5b+QIWNhxb jMMYx34Ebu/K2ZohUbdKIgv5sMTqtK8v7pPUfHwipmExicOuC9JOfKrUjbyBgUzn6AUU xgMm0FlFfRu7BKbcXV8f29N6SpVQjnVX+JmIZyG8e6xEAziMLu5enGg+XIAEqgdbN0Q2 F5vg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVM90cSSX4po+6ilaOE9mrMeD5eyce9lrM5rfJebLATCpwGF9nr 16cQdp5iX4pyD5yhUODpINSbLd12dJYeo0yJ8BGkvQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqziY3wx0QM+ZXSSQW+xuY/pbKi4koZ3nNWoMOO3yupbLd2JnuNhqR4U7DHHVqQnhOMJhrCaIdQSu3FVOtSQb7g= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:c7:: with SMTP id x7mr19246218oto.272.1582129636768; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:27:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Mark McFadden Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 10:27:05 -0600 Message-ID: To: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fd00e4059ef0420d" Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Endpoint Taxonomy Draft X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 16:27:20 -0000 --000000000000fd00e4059ef0420d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" All: On our call last week I agreed that I would repost the endpoint taxonomy draft that I originally did for CLESS in the IRTF. The idea is to try to categorize endpoints by their characteristics and then understand commonalities (or, differences) that the types of endpoints bring to the threat landscape discussion. I'm still very happy to have comments on the draft and I'm really posting it here as an extension of the discussion we had last Friday. mark --000000000000fd00e4059ef0420d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All:

On our call last week I= agreed that I would repost the endpoint taxonomy draft that I originally d= id for CLESS in the IRTF. The idea is to try to categorize endpoints by the= ir characteristics and then understand commonalities (or, differences) that= the types of endpoints bring to the threat landscape discussion.

I'm still very happy to have comments on the draft and = I'm really posting it here as an extension of the discussion we had las= t Friday.

mark
--000000000000fd00e4059ef0420d-- From nobody Wed Feb 19 15:04:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE021200C7 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 15:04:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ftwMMlDkPx76 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 15:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E2F6120145 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="aLppN8BC1xvfCx4G4Kf4knb6WgjrMNgex" Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] IAB has approved creation of model-t programme X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 23:04:12 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --aLppN8BC1xvfCx4G4Kf4knb6WgjrMNgex Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="M9JgUMP8ESsRBrGpFP0Vt6InrX6ltjSX8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "model-t@iab.org" Message-ID: <2ecb4041-5c52-417b-8a83-a692d7d5a9ee@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: IAB has approved creation of model-t programme --M9JgUMP8ESsRBrGpFP0Vt6InrX6ltjSX8 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C511D1AA7EC07AB981A6D906" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C511D1AA7EC07AB981A6D906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, We just had an IAB call where the IAB voted to approve formation of the model-t programme. There'll be a web page added to iab.org in the next while, but as of now we're "official." Thanks for the good work so far and looking forward to more of that, Cheers, S. --------------C511D1AA7EC07AB981A6D906 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t 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[77.106.147.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t1sm2102196lji.98.2020.02.20.08.04.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:04:37 -0800 (PST) From: Dominique Lazanski Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F4492E89-2E8B-4363-97D6-205BDF860661" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:04:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: <2ecb4041-5c52-417b-8a83-a692d7d5a9ee@cs.tcd.ie> Cc: Stephen Farrell To: model-t@iab.org References: <2ecb4041-5c52-417b-8a83-a692d7d5a9ee@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] IAB has approved creation of model-t programme X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 16:04:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F4492E89-2E8B-4363-97D6-205BDF860661 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is great news! Quick question - as this is a new IAB group, is there a document you can = point to about how the group is governed (process, chairs etc) or is = that coming on iab.org ? Looking forward to chatting more about this and all the drafts that we = will hopefully have! Dominique > On 20 Feb 2020, at 00:04, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > We just had an IAB call where the IAB voted to approve > formation of the model-t programme. There'll be a web > page added to iab.org in the next while, but as of now > we're "official." Thanks for the good work so far and > looking forward to more of that, >=20 > Cheers, > S. > <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>--=20 > Model-t mailing list > Model-t@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t --Apple-Mail=_F4492E89-2E8B-4363-97D6-205BDF860661 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii This = is great news!

Quick = question - as this is a new IAB group, is there a document you can point = to about how the group is governed (process, chairs etc) or is that = coming on iab.org?

Looking forward to = chatting more about this and all the drafts that we will hopefully = have!

Dominique

On 20 Feb 2020, at 00:04, = Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


Hi all,

We just had an IAB call = where the IAB voted to approve
formation of the model-t = programme. There'll be a web
page added to iab.org in the next while, but as = of now
we're "official." Thanks for the good work so far = and
looking forward to more of that,

Cheers,
S.
<0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc= >--
Model-t mailing list
Model-t@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t

= --Apple-Mail=_F4492E89-2E8B-4363-97D6-205BDF860661-- From nobody Thu Feb 20 08:20:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B895E1208C1 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:20:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0227UHUXCjMw for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:20:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 931FC1208A4 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cTFXE1AmiuUQMC8Ga5wIWo4lGdMkiYVoD" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] IAB has approved creation of model-t programme X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 16:20:52 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --cTFXE1AmiuUQMC8Ga5wIWo4lGdMkiYVoD Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Yd1NLJOjNEx6Nz1nOrPIJU3zDpq367sVy"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Dominique Lazanski , model-t@iab.org Message-ID: <16555ae3-faee-47a3-101c-7f4e99afc0a3@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Model-t] IAB has approved creation of model-t programme References: <2ecb4041-5c52-417b-8a83-a692d7d5a9ee@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --Yd1NLJOjNEx6Nz1nOrPIJU3zDpq367sVy Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F15A8E0BF27AA46C3BB9CC2C" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F15A8E0BF27AA46C3BB9CC2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 20/02/2020 16:04, Dominique Lazanski wrote: > This is great news! >=20 > Quick question - as this is a new IAB group, is there a document you > can point to about how the group is governed (process, chairs etc) or > is that coming on iab.org ? IAB programmes are described at [1]. Mostly, technical programmes have tended to be invite-only not-very-formal groups, so this one is a bit of an experiment in being open and perhaps involving more folks, but I'd hope we can still get good work done without having to be that formal. In terms of what to expect on the web site, I guess we'll make a web page for this somewhat like [2] based on the draft charter text. If we want to include a list of people involved, I guess we could initialise that based on the folks who were on the call last week, those who were at the f2f in Singapore and whomever's been active on the mailing list in between. (I'm assuming that people like their names being listed on a page like [2], but if anyone would prefer not, or sees that we miss someone, just ping me or Jari.) I'd also suggest we maybe try focus some on the technical work for a bit, since we've spent what's a relatively large chunk of time on charter text recently. So maybe if we consider organisational things again in some (e.g. 6?) months that might make sense. But I'm sure anyone with opinions on that will use the list to share those in any case:-) Cheers, S. [1] https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/ [2] https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/concluded-programs/privacy-and-se= curity-program/ >=20 > Looking forward to chatting more about this and all the drafts that > we will hopefully have! >=20 > Dominique >=20 >> On 20 Feb 2020, at 00:04, Stephen Farrell >> wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> Hi all, >>=20 >> We just had an IAB call where the IAB voted to approve formation of >> the model-t programme. There'll be a web page added to iab.org in >> the next while, but as of now we're "official." Thanks for the good >> work so far and looking forward to more of that, >>=20 >> Cheers, S. <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>-- Model-t mailing list=20 >> Model-t@iab.org https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t >=20 >=20 >=20 --------------F15A8E0BF27AA46C3BB9CC2C Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 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X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.119.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158292932241.19931.14392279230254658388@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:35:22 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] model-t - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:35:29 -0000 Dear Amy Vezza, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. model-t Session 1 (1:30 requested) Wednesday, 25 March 2020, Afternoon Session II 1520-1650 Room Name: Georgia A size: 100 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/sessions/model-t.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Internet Threat Model Area Name: Internet Architecture Board Session Requester: Amy Vezza Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 30 Conflicts to Avoid: Technology Overlap: ace acme cose curdle dots emu i2nsf ipsecme kitten lake lamps mile mls oauth rats sacm secdispatch saag secevent suit teep tls tokbind trans txauth privacypass People who must be present: Stephen Farrell Jari Arkko Resources Requested: Special Requests: Wiki mentioned both 1 or 1.5 hours. Possibly could shrink to 1 hour if need be? ---------------------------------------------------------