From nobody Sun Jul 12 21:33:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61173A0CD2 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 2020 21:33:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=TRnCwVWF; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=HazFMxF1 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P25It-P-vZ-M for ; Sun, 12 Jul 2020 21:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E2883A0CD0 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 2020 21:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EB9A453 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 00:33:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 13 Jul 2020 00:33:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s= fm2; bh=XHov3ZNzZkpUyY4UwxL1PiUfafT+lXCxECDCA5NB/s0=; b=TRnCwVWF tZC9GbzZcLtO8Xee1k8kJz8o29jXZ/hIph3DAtGnDbDAUPv8xvHKSMTxpaShywup cI6efCQV1Vs8uMr4xdUgRUU3qVIY+yce0+9+vRek22N9tFfbbPcbFzjFjWA46PJE oLPmuxo0/2cxBQYKUqIgQV+SLWgKpcdLZ+mmGKzc0rZViD2+iqgovnIWaYzFXrX5 +HSAUZ7BgCjqPzayx49kDA+mIIv5lOwzGClfKy5Z2QSf+wes4l3WKyrXzTIkKIIm KXJ9mMOvwr8YOo8BtHwoG74vGkBiT96zVy9m3w6GUGDJCjzxIyW0x9vGLLxxNOXY PC8eWXAHVkhyXg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=XHov3ZNzZkpUyY4UwxL1PiUfafT+l XCxECDCA5NB/s0=; b=HazFMxF1wBg0q14DF3Zx0YG4Yc7ebVHRd5x0+N1xU32jG CHPv1ZcobdaYRtPMBSQfkXkzXRb1bbOVnjKezi0gBEkbshIhTkyQI3ImvB1m+PQR H0wToNeILVAIx0k8dpdUOsn0XYCApCKrNM8lZJhbdCfm9M15X5lfDXb6WM0J6CZ4 hMXBotVhgpvjFM+YhUPiFt9+WT3zJVns+ET7p/clkB2J3Gb1a701dE3yTlC/gtpM uxvNKLWg16sBvPwJU8f0LujukaHzMlB8UczDi+f3g6PmVye/bCy2N2LOqUFxdrmU 8CPeB5N2KEk9FMMoStBh9ByaFaXkQ57VdiLwc78mQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrvdejgdekjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecuogfuuhhsphgvtghtffhomhgrihhnucdlgeelmdenuc fjughrpefofgggkfffhffvufgtsehttdertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhn ucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrg htthgvrhhnpeffiefgieffjeejudelteegleegieejudefvdeiudeugfdvfeethfelueff udetieenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhgihhthhhusgdrihhopdhgihhthh husgdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhr ohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id B2552E00CD; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 00:33:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-613-g8a73ad6-fm-20200709.001-g8a73ad6e Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:32:40 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 04:33:04 -0000 There have been a lot of discussions recently about the threat model, but I thought that I would contribute something concrete. This is an attempt to capture what I believe to be the principles behind some of the more prominent recent protocol design efforts. In some ways this is a broader take than that in RFC 8558, which was a discussion of transport protocols. QUIC very much embodies these principles, but I could point to a number of other efforts across the IETF. The principles I recommend are: 1. Prefer designs without intermediaries 2. Failing that, control which entities can intermediate the protocol, and 3. Limit actions and information that are available to intermediaries The draft is here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-thomson-tmi-00 A live HTML version is here: https://martinthomson.github.io/tmi/draft-thomson-tmi.html And if you feel motivated to contribute, on GitHub: https://github.com/martinthomson/tmi This might not be the right venue to discuss something like this, but as this came out of discussions in Singapore, I thought I would share it here. This is less about the threat model than a specific response to some of the threats we've discussed; to that end, it probably isn't in the charter of this group, but I hope that it informs discussion. From nobody Mon Jul 13 01:56:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1C53A0C58 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 01:56:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ooufam40p-sz for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 01:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B3A73A0C3A for ; 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Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:55:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:55:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org Message-ID: <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev17 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:56:22 -0000 > Il 13/07/2020 06:32 Martin Thomson ha scritto: > > > There have been a lot of discussions recently about the threat model, but I thought that I would contribute something concrete. > > This is an attempt to capture what I believe to be the principles behind some of the more prominent recent protocol design efforts. In some ways this is a broader take than that in RFC 8558, which was a discussion of transport protocols. QUIC very much embodies these principles, but I could point to a number of other efforts across the IETF. The principles I recommend are: > > 1. Prefer designs without intermediaries > > 2. Failing that, control which entities can intermediate the protocol, and > > 3. Limit actions and information that are available to intermediaries I think that this really depends on who you are and how you see the world. There are people who are more afraid of the endpoints, given how hard it has become to be able to know and choose who you (the applications and devices you use) communicate with - so these people would like to become intermediaries, or install intermediaries, to regain control of their communications. Think of concepts like ad blockers, firewalls or network monitors: designing against intermediaries makes them impossible, and I don't think this is good for the Internet (or for anyone but the online advertising and tracking industry). I would suggest that any analysis aimed at designing a threat model should start by considering both the threats that may come from intermediaries and the threats that may come from entities that control the endpoints; ideally, you would need to ensure that the end-user is protected as much as possible against abuses by both types of parties. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Mon Jul 13 06:02:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DB93A11AD for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:02:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VNcIffK1eOav for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1691A3A11EE for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id j11so17679152ljo.7 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:02:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Jc++qr/WECE7lFH8f8hT2IR+vspsFLP2W/NZnxmebhg=; b=fPf+QLrEdSTkH0kkz0btanrJPJGblx23NntmjTv6Cwx8+NqNCsSvJSt7d1VM7x4sM/ 5jdMssI5btePnB7CesBN4YWhAoQQVbMrncXzLvuIMVcVuLc+R0UnJvF2l9HHrsI8aJZA WciuNybdTycbO8npytMac5Cja0fmSxFTVi5RzbeT1ytG+7OEP8T+ybw1k/rRqS4d7Oue GLuDNZY8gX5ONH7IvQgRXnkq27mZsDlJiJe2Rb9gWNDCQJHjju8ssDyDWLxhBk2jhjgO QCBTVR+rF5LLbUTlTyHsk3ZVadAxozA5vWWmWfz2Huezp8hnanOGPkJN9Ahzdcv6KNF7 4MgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Jc++qr/WECE7lFH8f8hT2IR+vspsFLP2W/NZnxmebhg=; b=cUHbYXGgMmwY/yD5glliNLjlTCrhnCE7+5zUueW4kASV17GpLiHaDtxyDQ8G+8flQ/ uO8+FBUGpK70NgwIQGdktqzjhRdG+g7b8j5IoizZOfOx5WBcmanQZUj6ezGKCILMGZSh Sf4L5v8fTI02tQgPa5//RPr4z6rnxpSOuY9CAIdoVLPgeoWCRP9nT0ZCwOxKnQnUxOvL iYfPkBJTz8r1neAnjX3H0KE3/yHMU+mmYDNhatgqhDzHPed12MO5lfKoubJSMRmAX1yC ly5svfdrEA2Y0H688grOOwj7o3Qx5WclIjC2AotrXp+oy7QRnst5kNIutqgHzqY5lDvK 5CrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533cG/tJdcTd0MDi9eotieob7rltHnWCf1bX1iOoA4CDIdPaavMq Mfok1SUkQO5sY5y/Ke9U1EXXrO2uS5JrLtSjn5kx6w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw4Nt7oCHn7QQq1NE7awAuqcKtna0uEjh+zT22v930Toe7fH3dwHNypVwJEWB4YLDbPcEqBspjOLTQxCGaCyQ0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:14d:: with SMTP id c13mr12982893ljd.409.1594645323399; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:02:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:01:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000b782505aa524ce3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:02:14 -0000 --0000000000000b782505aa524ce3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 1:56 AM Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > > > Il 13/07/2020 06:32 Martin Thomson ha scritto: > > > > > > There have been a lot of discussions recently about the threat model, > but I thought that I would contribute something concrete. > > > > This is an attempt to capture what I believe to be the principles behind > some of the more prominent recent protocol design efforts. In some ways > this is a broader take than that in RFC 8558, which was a discussion of > transport protocols. QUIC very much embodies these principles, but I could > point to a number of other efforts across the IETF. The principles I > recommend are: > > > > 1. Prefer designs without intermediaries > > > > 2. Failing that, control which entities can intermediate the > protocol, and > > > > 3. Limit actions and information that are available to intermediaries > > I think that this really depends on who you are and how you see the world. > There are people who are more afraid of the endpoints, given how hard it > has become to be able to know and choose who you (the applications and > devices you use) communicate with - so these people would like to become > intermediaries, or install intermediaries, to regain control of their > communications. Think of concepts like ad blockers, Ad blocking commonly takes place at the endpoint, where it is far more effective than at the network layer. -Ekr --0000000000000b782505aa524ce3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 1:56 AM Vitto= rio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=3D40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:


> Il 13/07/2020 06:32 Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> ha scritto:
>
>=C2=A0
> There have been a lot of discussions recently about the threat model, = but I thought that I would contribute something concrete.
>
> This is an attempt to capture what I believe to be the principles behi= nd some of the more prominent recent protocol design efforts.=C2=A0 In some= ways this is a broader take than that in RFC 8558, which was a discussion = of transport protocols.=C2=A0 QUIC very much embodies these principles, but= I could point to a number of other efforts across the IETF.=C2=A0 The prin= ciples I recommend are:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1.=C2=A0 Prefer designs without intermediaries
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2.=C2=A0 Failing that, control which entities can interme= diate the protocol, and
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 Limit actions and information that are available= to intermediaries

I think that this really depends on who you are and how you see the world. = There are people who are more afraid of the endpoints, given how hard it ha= s become to be able to know and choose who you (the applications and device= s you use) communicate with - so these people would like to become intermed= iaries, or install intermediaries, to regain control of their communication= s. Think of concepts like ad blockers,

Ad b= locking commonly takes place at the endpoint, where it is far more effectiv= e than at the network layer.

-Ekr
--0000000000000b782505aa524ce3-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 09:39:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546CB3A157C for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:39:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lastpresslabel-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iZ2u-pkQaoXO for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com (mail-wr1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C378C3A1582 for ; 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Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c7:2b0a:fa01:fc7c:d4df:6bde:eb0d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v6sm24654925wrr.85.2020.07.13.09.38.58 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:38:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Dominique Lazanski Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_75D26AA1-D6DB-4BEA-8975-96A1ECA5A8C2" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: <578A633A-9850-43E0-BF7D-889F013F3318@lastpresslabel.com> References: <159465829248.24015.15490180942966623867@ietfa.amsl.com> To: model-t@iab.org Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 17:38:57 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t-01.txt X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:39:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_75D26AA1-D6DB-4BEA-8975-96A1ECA5A8C2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FYI > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t-01.txt > Date: 13 July 2020 at 17:38:12 BST > To: "Dominique Lazanski" >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t-01.txt > has been successfully submitted by Dominique Lazanski and posted to = the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t > Revision: 01 > Title: A User-Focused Internet Threat Model > Document date: 2020-07-13 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 13 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t-0= 1.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t-01 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t-01= >=20 > Abstract: > RFC 3552 introduces a threat model that does not include endpoint > security. Yet increasingly protocol development is making assumptions > about endpoint security capabilities which have not been defined. RFC > 3552 is 17 years old and threat landscape has changed. Security issues > and cyber attacks have increased and there are more devices, users, = and > applications on the endpoint than ever. This draft proposes a new > approach to the Internet threat model which will include endpoint > security, focus on users and provide an update to the threat model in > RFC 3552. It brings together Security Considerations for Protocol > Designers draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-model-t-01 which is a > comprehensive document that lists threats, attack vectors, examples = and > considerations for designing protocols, as well as draft-taddei-smart- > cless-introduction-02 which lays out security concerns, capabilities > and limitations for endpoints in general and draft-mcfadden-smart- > endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless-01 which outlines a clear taxonomy for > endpoint security and identifies changes in technology, economic and > protocol development that has impacted and changed endpoint security. > Taken together these drafts reflect a comprehensive and clear set of > security threats and design considerations for the Internet. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_75D26AA1-D6DB-4BEA-8975-96A1ECA5A8C2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii FYI

Begin forwarded message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = New Version = Notification for draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t-01.txt
Date: = 13 July 2020 at 17:38:12 BST
To: = "Dominique Lazanski" <dml@lastpresslabel.com>


A new version = of I-D, draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t-01.txt
has = been successfully submitted by Dominique Lazanski and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: = draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t
Revision: 01
Title:= = A User-Focused Internet Threat Model
Document = date: = 2020-07-13
Group: Individual Submission
Pages:= = 13
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lazanski-users-threa= t-model-t-01.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lazanski-users-threat-mo= del-t/
Htmlized: =       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t= -01
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lazanski-users-thre= at-model-t
Diff: =           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-lazanski-users-threat= -model-t-01

Abstract:
RFC = 3552 introduces a threat model that does not include endpoint
security. Yet increasingly protocol development is making = assumptions
about endpoint security capabilities which = have not been defined. RFC
3552 is 17 years old and threat = landscape has changed. Security issues
and cyber attacks = have increased and there are more devices, users, and
applications on the endpoint than ever. This draft proposes a = new
approach to the Internet threat model which will = include endpoint
security, focus on users and provide an = update to the threat model in
RFC 3552. It brings together = Security Considerations for Protocol
Designers = draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-model-t-01 which is a
comprehensive document that lists threats, attack vectors, = examples and
considerations for designing protocols, as = well as draft-taddei-smart-
cless-introduction-02 which = lays out security concerns, capabilities
and limitations = for endpoints in general and draft-mcfadden-smart-
endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless-01 which outlines a clear = taxonomy for
endpoint security and identifies changes in = technology, economic and
protocol development that has = impacted and changed endpoint security.
Taken together = these drafts reflect a comprehensive and clear set of
security threats and design considerations for the = Internet.






Please note that it may take a = couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the = htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



= --Apple-Mail=_75D26AA1-D6DB-4BEA-8975-96A1ECA5A8C2-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 12:26:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9ECD3A080B for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:26:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lastpresslabel-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x1E8Qdmq0g8k for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27A5A3A08B9 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id f139so891928wmf.5 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lastpresslabel-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:references:to:date; bh=+212u8QXNBZUKRWdJHC84SS7020QzIPoYCaIEqkAXzE=; b=A1uN6sagOzSK1L6vP3qUbmCov5crRWOBjtrwC7dsyiOkS/9mhCGpPQquLg1+Ioocua vyu3WzkFpRrgVGmbtg/SHLOqcq3pZXmRBZosx2Yw95tSUaYyZWAyvW+kDCA/ESbw8bBN tpy8i35WxVoTZCTLc6iKgeGIHi8xADRgzFvb5WiOD72clGjc0BDLSqNSIDNB6LwdWbYB l5Yq5Qf5a8yUNmct2gH7cV/kLk6+vPrE1yy1JxerVf2obBdBBnt9ElXOD3hGjl0aReVR PG8CzrQ7Hf+yY/LTK9bOWQ4WSDADtKjnkV5wHndjz1j16Ka98cfdA+GQuNYoiLBShE5B vNXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:references :to:date; bh=+212u8QXNBZUKRWdJHC84SS7020QzIPoYCaIEqkAXzE=; b=XGNFG+WXV0RxYSDY6+kuwbivGaCNqNrPOWCSBNmKjU2fQr2C8oMpXU7mcfzYwFLbrF vxgshI6yfZ46jsV4NU1A6Sus6eU2oxpk9TLyG+Sfsk5MqoW2LGtclN+5lRKIfC3QweBu 1pA32/oXp8HiE5kL6YzNMQi7IKm4OrLkiR4rkumU/nlYDIlCwm97SyJOBxG3GXQEq5qZ Ld7hBxBk7kg3zk3D/ImXWOakVRHyxCFjlK4US7WrytEXv3G1lo5qMH3116EGi7b6idHO +t6MwmtzogiKbJCCt6DIe7CfigKEQ4F/by72BknVhqiJ+cSWry5HJf8523NemDcrmS1A g4SQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531BmY5HigQJDguiF38idKUJO4H8lQYSW/s6OpoaCoPCyvXKltNJ PiVRWNzUtRWTeM6xI0XeHFA4J7Hyjlg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxfdhRnhm+Ha8BRnmP1W/OYLL1POB3Wtib0yD4ixilWe6kgrJLObaDUhiSQPZFwmi+1V9Y0RQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:48d7:: with SMTP id v206mr853374wma.145.1594668394254; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c7:2b0a:fa01:fc7c:d4df:6bde:eb0d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f9sm25244741wru.47.2020.07.13.12.26.33 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:26:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Dominique Lazanski Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7E4F81D4-B472-45F5-B090-18994BBFA7E5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: References: <159466837262.21068.18242656719625685977@ietfa.amsl.com> To: model-t@iab.org Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:26:32 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-model-t-01.txt X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 19:26:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7E4F81D4-B472-45F5-B090-18994BBFA7E5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FYI. Dominique > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-model-t-01.txt > Date: 13 July 2020 at 20:26:12 BST > To: "Dominique Lazanski" >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, = draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-model-t-01.txt > has been successfully submitted by Dominique Lazanski and posted to = the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-model-t > Revision: 01 > Title: Security Considerations for Protocol Designers > Document date: 2020-07-13 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 28 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-mo= del-t-01.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-model-= t/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-model-t-01 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-m= odel-t > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-mod= el-t-01 >=20 > Abstract: > This document is a non-exhaustive set of considerations for protocol > designers and implementers with regards to attack defence. This > document follows on from the way forward outlined in draft-lazanski- > users-threat-model-t-01. These considerations both supplement and > support the work on threat models. They can be used as an aid to > analyse protocol design choice and in turn to help combat threats > and defend users of these protocols and systems against malicious > attacks. >=20 > First, we list well-known classes of attacks that pose threats, with > relevant case studies and descriptions. Next, we give a list of > defence measures against these attacks to be considered when > designing and deploying protocols. Naturally, deployments of > protocols vary greatly between use cases; therefore, some attacks > and defensive measures outlined may require more consideration than > others, dependent on use case. >=20 > This RFC can be used by protocol designers to write the Security > Considerations section in an RFC. The impact on attack defence of a > protocol should be considered in multiple use cases across the > multiple layers of the internet. Defence against malicious attacks > can be improved and it can be weakened by design features of > protocols. Designers should acknowledge the role of protocols in > attack prevention, detection and mitigation; this document aims to > be a useful guide in doing so. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_7E4F81D4-B472-45F5-B090-18994BBFA7E5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii FYI.

Dominique

Begin forwarded = message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = New Version = Notification for = draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-model-t-01.txt
Date: = 13 July 2020 at 20:26:12 BST
To: = "Dominique Lazanski" <dml@lastpresslabel.com>


A new version = of I-D, draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-model-t-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Dominique Lazanski and = posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: = = draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-model-t
Revision: 01
Title: Security = Considerations for Protocol Designers
Document date: = 2020-07-13
Group: Individual Submission
Pages:= = 28
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lazanski-protocol-se= c-design-model-t-01.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-de= sign-model-t/
Htmlized: =       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lazanski-protocol-sec-design-= model-t-01
Htmlized: =       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lazanski-protocol-s= ec-design-model-t
Diff: =           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-lazanski-protocol-sec= -design-model-t-01

Abstract:
  This document is a non-exhaustive set of = considerations for protocol
  designers and = implementers with regards to attack defence. This
=   document follows on from the way forward outlined in = draft-lazanski-
  users-threat-model-t-01. = These considerations both supplement and
=   support the work on threat models. They can be used as an = aid to
  analyse protocol design choice and in = turn to help combat threats
  and defend users = of these protocols and systems against malicious
=   attacks.

  First, we = list well-known classes of attacks that pose threats, with
=   relevant case studies and descriptions. Next, we give a list = of
  defence measures against these attacks to = be considered when
  designing and deploying = protocols. Naturally, deployments of
=   protocols vary greatly between use cases; therefore, some = attacks
  and defensive measures outlined may = require more consideration than
  others, = dependent on use case.

  This = RFC can be used by protocol designers to write the Security
=   Considerations section in an RFC. The impact on attack = defence of a
  protocol should be considered in = multiple use cases across the
  multiple layers = of the internet. Defence against malicious attacks
=   can be improved and it can be weakened by design features = of
  protocols. Designers should acknowledge = the role of protocols in
  attack prevention, = detection and mitigation; this document aims to
=   be a useful guide in doing so.




Please note that = it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



= --Apple-Mail=_7E4F81D4-B472-45F5-B090-18994BBFA7E5-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 12:30:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965F53A0064 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:30:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P2H7iQjrZUMI for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 959943A003E for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A23300B79 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:30:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id KrmCDfsHmbnp for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-72-66-113-56.washdc.fios.verizon.net [72.66.113.56]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7700E300A55; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:30:29 -0400 Cc: model-t Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <426A3989-D323-42E4-84F3-8593170F2F54@vigilsec.com> References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 19:30:41 -0000 #2 has pros and cons. When one connects to a new public wi-fi, some = proxies are often offered to reduce latency. the choice may be to = accept these proxies in order to use the service at all. So, "control" = is an interesting choice of words. However, it would be really useful = to always identify the proxies that are involved.=20 Russ > On Jul 13, 2020, at 12:32 AM, Martin Thomson = wrote: >=20 > There have been a lot of discussions recently about the threat model, = but I thought that I would contribute something concrete. >=20 > This is an attempt to capture what I believe to be the principles = behind some of the more prominent recent protocol design efforts. In = some ways this is a broader take than that in RFC 8558, which was a = discussion of transport protocols. QUIC very much embodies these = principles, but I could point to a number of other efforts across the = IETF. The principles I recommend are: >=20 > 1. Prefer designs without intermediaries >=20 > 2. Failing that, control which entities can intermediate the = protocol, and >=20 > 3. Limit actions and information that are available to = intermediaries >=20 > The draft is here: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-thomson-tmi-00 > A live HTML version is here: = https://martinthomson.github.io/tmi/draft-thomson-tmi.html > And if you feel motivated to contribute, on GitHub: = https://github.com/martinthomson/tmi >=20 > This might not be the right venue to discuss something like this, but = as this came out of discussions in Singapore, I thought I would share it = here. This is less about the threat model than a specific response to = some of the threats we've discussed; to that end, it probably isn't in = the charter of this group, but I hope that it informs discussion. >=20 > --=20 > Model-t mailing list > Model-t@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t From nobody Mon Jul 13 15:46:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED803A003D for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:46:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5tc_FhGKz2bJ for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F5F3A0849 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116CF6600BC for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:46:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fLbnFVQAXBPw for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:46:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 955216600BA for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:46:24 +0300 (EEST) From: Jari Arkko Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AA70285A-85A4-44D2-9FD1-216712A75B9D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: <6EEA2BA1-29BD-4A3B-82B8-73B2399883D4@piuha.net> References: <159468029020.5866.10165939401225344842@ietfa.amsl.com> To: model-t@iab.org Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:46:23 +0300 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-04.txt X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 22:46:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AA70285A-85A4-44D2-9FD1-216712A75B9D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FYI > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-04.txt > Date: 14 July 2020 at 1.44.50 GMT+3 > To: "Jari Arkko" , "Stephen Farrell" = >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-04.txt > has been successfully submitted by Jari Arkko and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t > Revision: 04 > Title: Challenges and Changes in the Internet Threat = Model > Document date: 2020-07-14 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 38 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-04.t= xt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-04 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-04 >=20 > Abstract: > Communications security has been at the center of many security > improvements in the Internet. The goal has been to ensure that > communications are protected against outside observers and = attackers. >=20 > This memo suggests that the existing RFC 3552 threat model, while > important and still valid, is no longer alone sufficient to cater = for > the pressing security and privacy issues seen on the Internet today. > For instance, it is often also necessary to protect against = endpoints > that are compromised, malicious, or whose interests simply do not > align with the interests of users. While such protection is > difficult, there are some measures that can be taken and we argue > that investigation of these issues is warranted. >=20 > It is particularly important to ensure that as we continue to = develop > Internet technology, non-communications security related threats, = and > privacy issues, are properly understood. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_AA70285A-85A4-44D2-9FD1-216712A75B9D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii FYI

Begin forwarded message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = New Version = Notification for draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-04.txt
Date: = 14 July 2020 at 1.44.50 = GMT+3
To: = "Jari Arkko" <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>

A new version of I-D, = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-04.txt
has been = successfully submitted by Jari Arkko and posted to the
IETF = repository.

Name: = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t
Revision: 04
Title:= = Challenges and Changes in the Internet Threat Model
Document date: 2020-07-14
Group:= = Individual Submission
Pages: 38
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-m= odel-t-04.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model= -t/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-04=
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-= model-t
Diff: =           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-arkko-farrell-arch-mo= del-t-04

Abstract:
=   Communications security has been at the center of many = security
  improvements in the Internet. =  The goal has been to ensure that
=   communications are protected against outside observers and = attackers.

  This memo suggests = that the existing RFC 3552 threat model, while
=   important and still valid, is no longer alone sufficient to = cater for
  the pressing security and privacy = issues seen on the Internet today.
  For = instance, it is often also necessary to protect against endpoints
  that are compromised, malicious, or whose = interests simply do not
  align with the = interests of users.  While such protection is
=   difficult, there are some measures that can be taken and we = argue
  that investigation of these issues is = warranted.

  It is particularly = important to ensure that as we continue to develop
=   Internet technology, non-communications security related = threats, and
  privacy issues, are properly = understood.



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the = time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are = available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF = Secretariat



= --Apple-Mail=_AA70285A-85A4-44D2-9FD1-216712A75B9D-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 15:46:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F5C3A0044 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:46:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t9aI_Vk3z7N7 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6378D3A0028 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D26F6600BC for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:46:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F2Ler_bWK-wB for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:46:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D04BC6600BA for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:46:37 +0300 (EEST) From: Jari Arkko Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_278649F5-326A-49E1-A8CF-74D3AF3BCD59" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: References: <159467950903.23186.16227215352225935553@ietfa.amsl.com> To: model-t@iab.org Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:46:37 +0300 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-3552-additions-00.txt X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 22:46:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_278649F5-326A-49E1-A8CF-74D3AF3BCD59 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FYI > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-3552-additions-00.txt > Date: 14 July 2020 at 1.31.49 GMT+3 > To: "Jari Arkko" , "Stephen Farrell" = >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-3552-additions-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Jari Arkko and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-3552-additions > Revision: 00 > Title: RFC 3552 additions due to evolving Internet = thread model > Document date: 2020-07-14 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 10 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-3552= -additions-00.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-3552-add= itions/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-3552-addition= s-00 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-355= 2-additions >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > Communications security has been at the center of many security > improvements in the Internet. The goal has been to ensure that > communications are protected against outside observers and = attackers. >=20 > This memo suggests additions to the RFC 3552 threat model to cater > for the evolving security and privacy issues seen on the Internet > today. For instance, it is often also necessary to protect against > endpoints that are compromised, malicious, or whose interests simply > do not align with the interests of users. While such protection is > difficult, there are some measures that can be taken and we argue > that investigation of these issues is warranted. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_278649F5-326A-49E1-A8CF-74D3AF3BCD59 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii FYI

Begin forwarded message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = New Version = Notification for = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-3552-additions-00.txt
Date: = 14 July 2020 at 1.31.49 = GMT+3
To: = "Jari Arkko" <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>

A new version of I-D, = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-3552-additions-00.txt
has = been successfully submitted by Jari Arkko and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-3552-additions
Revision: 00
Title: RFC 3552 = additions due to evolving Internet thread model
Document = date: = 2020-07-14
Group: Individual Submission
Pages:= = 10
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-m= odel-t-3552-additions-00.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model= -t-3552-additions/
Htmlized: =       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-35= 52-additions-00
Htmlized: =       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-= model-t-3552-additions


Abstract:
  Communications security = has been at the center of many security
=   improvements in the Internet.  The goal has been to = ensure that
  communications are protected = against outside observers and attackers.

=   This memo suggests additions to the RFC 3552 threat model to = cater
  for the evolving security and privacy = issues seen on the Internet
  today.  For = instance, it is often also necessary to protect against
=   endpoints that are compromised, malicious, or whose = interests simply
  do not align with the = interests of users.  While such protection is
=   difficult, there are some measures that can be taken and we = argue
  that investigation of these issues is = warranted.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the = time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are = available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF = Secretariat



= --Apple-Mail=_278649F5-326A-49E1-A8CF-74D3AF3BCD59-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 15:47:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296483A0807 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:46:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O8lnmIWgYAAk for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEC93A0476 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579EB66023B for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:46:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CRrE51h_Z5Bm for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:46:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7AE16600BA for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:46:52 +0300 (EEST) From: Jari Arkko Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_145B884F-9CC5-4851-B4AA-DF4F949AC730" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: <1B48043D-2908-4A0E-8C1F-A884D6D72A58@piuha.net> References: <159467940103.14169.14873375210156819166@ietfa.amsl.com> To: model-t@iab.org Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:46:52 +0300 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-7258-additions-00.txt X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 22:47:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_145B884F-9CC5-4851-B4AA-DF4F949AC730 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FYI > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-7258-additions-00.txt > Date: 14 July 2020 at 1.30.01 GMT+3 > To: "Jari Arkko" , "Stephen Farrell" = >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-7258-additions-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Jari Arkko and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-7258-additions > Revision: 00 > Title: RFC 7258 additions due to evolving Internet = thread model > Document date: 2020-07-14 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 4 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-7258= -additions-00.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-7258-add= itions/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-7258-addition= s-00 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-725= 8-additions >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > Communications security has been at the center of many security > improvements in the Internet. The goal has been to ensure that > communications are protected against outside observers and = attackers. >=20 > RFC 7258 is the IETF guidance on taking into account pervasive > monitoring threats in Internet technology development work. This > memo suggests additions to RFC 7258 to cater for the evolving > threats. For instance, it may be necessary to also worry about > information collected by a legitimate protocol participant being > misused for pervasive monitoring purposes. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_145B884F-9CC5-4851-B4AA-DF4F949AC730 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii FYI

Begin forwarded message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = New Version = Notification for = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-7258-additions-00.txt
Date: = 14 July 2020 at 1.30.01 = GMT+3
To: = "Jari Arkko" <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>

A new version of I-D, = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-7258-additions-00.txt
has = been successfully submitted by Jari Arkko and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: = draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-7258-additions
Revision: 00
Title: RFC 7258 = additions due to evolving Internet thread model
Document = date: = 2020-07-14
Group: Individual Submission
Pages:= = 4
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-m= odel-t-7258-additions-00.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model= -t-7258-additions/
Htmlized: =       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-72= 58-additions-00
Htmlized: =       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-= model-t-7258-additions


Abstract:
  Communications security = has been at the center of many security
=   improvements in the Internet.  The goal has been to = ensure that
  communications are protected = against outside observers and attackers.

=   RFC 7258 is the IETF guidance on taking into account = pervasive
  monitoring threats in Internet = technology development work.  This
  memo = suggests additions to RFC 7258 to cater for the evolving
=   threats.  For instance, it may be necessary to also = worry about
  information collected by a = legitimate protocol participant being
  misused = for pervasive monitoring purposes.




Please note that it may take a = couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the = htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



= --Apple-Mail=_145B884F-9CC5-4851-B4AA-DF4F949AC730-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 17:25:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E5A3A0808 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 17:25:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=muioDd/J; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=SsETystH Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cWnYJNEmgj60 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 17:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 592743A03FA for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 17:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6866D5C021D for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:25:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=8HHDNLv7jv+UdmFIp6CyYiEV0CEnEte SEuc9Hdy0Uo8=; b=muioDd/Jmerr7/3HsQGgAMWjMKYhS/QlKEwsFK0u4ImmCay XymnKHXpQ1Asnli6c4KGIytPtxXXgO3Dv5TpW4rT+fr1m3DPaZiti+T9tH6nkhDb Y7wGgQDAOvkeEJtA5La+3kyJqLlAprSUZr1Xbwdi7AvN1WaiP4v9OH08V74mG0v4 +9P9F/urGvW6UGKvvFOydMV+YQ5M9C6u1YMEfKtG79+TsOn32miL0Y8HSnISPJnx i5d7PZt+jB+H0ZDN6RhopAdE0hZxEqOaTRZVVoiidykOCuaE8GjrJJEnmClRBZG4 SEW8P+3N/Yn+BeKwY0rB0SMfirEP5WLpZlvr4oQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=8HHDNL v7jv+UdmFIp6CyYiEV0CEnEteSEuc9Hdy0Uo8=; b=SsETystHSHw4TBKZeMIR13 srGZy5UHjBnU/+31bynW3E3z2wu70RNO2Rh2u5ymyezouqbHsw+YpT/j5cKuKaqN 6GkXe1+baZEgGwrqBH1tXd4BG81gu9cXTYzNwUg7nN3RSGPIbo5wfM2OPsNSpHgY GfhZY7S6ki9p86o5YMnV7JhylOs9VrMCYCy2QJg/ddXrElA8hKH3Zgyba9AMsEVN oI5kRHTi447v2dP1gXNAngZBei96/wZKX8hTiBkAfC9ISs8Fhk/Gxf1FOCKr8OiS w/GuZK/1lxsGMFpje4ThzhTRj5Q6nqD1Pn4gQL0l88wRwwyZs2r2bdFU+ZELKNCA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrvdelgdefvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtre dtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohif vghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffeljeeltdfhleegtedtve euteekteekgefhfeetgfefgfetvdfhieeutdegjeefnecuffhomhgrihhnpegvthhsihdr ohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe hmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id BF1C2E00B3; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:25:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-613-g8a73ad6-fm-20200709.001-g8a73ad6e Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <004e5fc9-e284-4c84-8a3c-7872ceb1d20b@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 10:25:15 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: model-t@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 00:25:38 -0000 On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, at 18:55, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > I think that this really depends on who you are and how you see the > world. There are people who are more afraid of the endpoints, given how > hard it has become to be able to know and choose who you (the > applications and devices you use) communicate with - so these people > would like to become intermediaries, or install intermediaries, to > regain control of their communications. I did not claim that this was addressing all of the problem. I agree that not being able to trust endpoints that you bought and are responsible for maintaining is a real problem. I disagree with the idea that more intermediation is any sort of solution. On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, at 05:30, Russ Housley wrote: > #2 has pros and cons. When one connects to a new public wi-fi, some > proxies are often offered to reduce latency. the choice may be to > accept these proxies in order to use the service at all. So, "control" > is an interesting choice of words. However, it would be really useful > to always identify the proxies that are involved. The scenario you posit is a common one. Many employers offer a similar choice: allow me to intermediate your web traffic or find another job. It's not much of a choice, but not strictly a protocol design choice. The protocol design decision here is whether to design a protocol to include this intermediation or whether to find another way to accomplish the desired goals. #2 comes in if you decide to design a protocol that involves this proxy. For instance, you might consider using TLMSP [1] over TLS. And yeah, "control" was a deliberate choice, but it has interesting implications. [1] https://docbox.etsi.org/CYBER/CYBER/Open/Latest_Drafts/CYBER-0027-2v020-TLMSP-Transport-Layer-Middlebox-Security-Protocol.pdf From nobody Mon Jul 13 21:33:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F4FE3A0DCD for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:33:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Y_G8Rbi6ZYv for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41A2C3A0DF7 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse99.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.99] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx166.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jvCdI-000iXD-9C for model-t@iab.org; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 06:33:37 +0200 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B5SLw1Xc5z4g2g for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.17] (helo=xmail07.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jvCdE-0008OP-2h for model-t@iab.org; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:33:28 -0700 Received: (qmail 14976 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2020 04:33:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.107]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.46.169]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail07.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 14 Jul 2020 04:33:27 -0000 To: Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <004e5fc9-e284-4c84-8a3c-7872ceb1d20b@www.fastmail.com> From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; 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auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.99/32@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0ZZlDYW4q2llG44Qh0NJtYKpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDXz6Yli32IJdAuJ3ivsC2SsRX qYbtEQV1z/L435ZRxFSavwLUw3L0iF4o8O70qBT1+rYZvu7UEJiU3s27VgKHO7lwS3dBJTnTxDoD vBGGxph9w6EwXICYy0ePXtGEMhqrDaibB3uLat3zCZGq8cCma2U6UgOqKJ9sMwhVoOBGSAIboXtx P9OF0EfNs5TqNq2Yhy7LI0kfFnXdPP6btp4oBeJDeKRq5oPj2hFJhLx+qI3HlR3ootg7OlA3N5WN re/oppAGOX5cHTu1yz4pRT/9FGrxEaaKeSxe0Wrx6M4G5/WoLsdfEoJI0BNUQ4KpaNyNCwGqOUcw rXf55E8Tb8bmXq4yH8StrboPphDtmrtUkwkDMc9xayd+oZJo2heFY+g6kVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw 5rdY2rW50fd1ekaDpmIWc1Vmt3mnxMTQMQWbvBqEXskTQn6USYs98Imn+lZXe3dwYfgVB1xo6dCf BaU/iegBU8aIeAiT0zR0hZdGDzE20RPqG1S8Jwk601Zlqm9qSh/u9CdyxuyKt2b8l8pBoRfKZfqH gbVpRK3T9+h2PwMALJBCzGcBz51fODTMyg19xQsdNrdCp3Zd9clP8wSiJZWbJCg35R5vCGCRun6Y x0PkyFKGl2XAmjiDRMPAE7E4NRJ8SzXg724gFzhHYUe+7aKm0vWySxGUI/MPelN/tsQCJMaATi+J 2sBvM/O0p+zizleC4lU8fDj1CnRx+r4b/1Q/PZ8yAvZd4AlvAMCLVEJAuNu/vOnCUbNPgcPcQwzM gKHyQxUo+ql2ySTkvEFH/23XMww2BnTTFGX5/yI4Ky+1ZJcbGqc5H4PEZHeoI/d6LWFf332z7LMw LGdoi9FMQ5j9dQUvMi1YKAun15JQSJLyCT5k+MTObVKxHy/dols381l9r9ft9daDonlwd6LnuX+J u10= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 04:33:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------434DFB1BBBF90EE56F28027F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/13/2020 5:25 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, at 18:55, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >> I think that this really depends on who you are and how you see the=20 >> world. There are people who are more afraid of the endpoints, given ho= w=20 >> hard it has become to be able to know and choose who you (the=20 >> applications and devices you use) communicate with - so these people=20 >> would like to become intermediaries, or install intermediaries, to=20 >> regain control of their communications.=20 > I did not claim that this was addressing all of the problem. I agree t= hat not being able to trust endpoints that you bought and are responsible= for maintaining is a real problem. I disagree with the idea that more i= ntermediation is any sort of solution. Yes. There is a privacy argument that it is important to be able to inspect what comes out of the device, in order to shine a big light on possible privacy abuses. There are also two classes of counter arguments: first, that weakening the data protection of these devices plays in the hands of a variety of bad actors; and second, that in the case of competent device makers, inspecting the traffic won't reveal much= =2E Take the example of a cloud-backed security camera. Inspecting the traffic will show that it is sending streams of video images to the cloud service. That won't be a surprise, because that's exactly what the device is sold for: send the images to a remote service, so the users can check the security of their home from their cell phone in the office. At the same time, just knowing that will not tell you that the images are harvested to feed a facial recognition database, or that they are made available to the police. That kind of abuse happens in the back end. And yes, there are real life examples of door-bell cameras doing exactly that. And of course we could define the same scenarios for thermostats, light bulbs and many more. Asking the device makers for a way to inspect their traffic of such devices won't give you much, and the back doors required for enabling that are almost guaranteed to be abused by hackers. What you really want is some form of control on what happens to your data once they reach the cloud. -- Christian Huitema --------------434DFB1BBBF90EE56F28027F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 7/13/2020 5:25 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:

On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, at 18:55, Vittorio Bertola wrote:

I think that this really depends on who you are and how you see the 
world. There are people who are more afraid of the endpoints, given how 
hard it has become to be able to know and choose who you (the 
applications and devices you use) communicate with - so these people 
would like to become intermediaries, or install intermediaries, to 
regain control of their communications. 

I did not claim that this was addressing all of the problem.  I agree that not being able to trust endpoints that you bought and are responsible for maintaining is a real problem.  I disagree with the idea that more intermediation is any sort of solution.

Yes. There is a privacy argument that it is important to be able to inspect what comes out of the device, in order to shine a big light on possible privacy abuses. There are also two classes of counter arguments: first, that weakening the data protection of these devices plays in the hands of a variety of bad actors; and second, that in the case of competent device makers, inspecting the traffic won't reveal much.

Take the example of a cloud-backed security camera. Inspecting the traffic will show that it is sending streams of video images to the cloud service. That won't be a surprise, because that's exactly what the device is sold for: send the images to a remote service, so the users can check the security of their home from their cell phone in the office. At the same time, just knowing that will not tell you that the images are harvested to feed a facial recognition database, or that they are made available to the police. That kind of abuse happens in the back end. And yes, there are real life examples of door-bell cameras doing exactly that. And of course we could define the same scenarios for thermostats, light bulbs and many more.

Asking the device makers for a way to inspect their traffic of such devices won't give you much, and the back doors required for enabling that are almost guaranteed to be abused by hackers. What you really want is some form of control on what happens to your data once they reach the cloud.

-- Christian Huitema

--------------434DFB1BBBF90EE56F28027F-- From nobody Tue Jul 14 05:44:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75D63A0BE7 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 05:44:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wPKH07JhJSXf for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 05:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04A543A0BDB for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 05:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id s9so22423468ljm.11 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 05:44:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=f4fm/wR3rVRgmnyX0vPkrGr5bLSfhUXbMHPbGxQzvgA=; b=hy4iSdJ9M38SxWLnZXqyoeIR7oZubmeISt+tSd+XPvu92HHK1S+Gs9Jh1czTndO/JJ NklhsTpon3bLCzwDKDTHiPkizv4HTzLeytEjc4RO0h0ZVHX5OV6P01neyKJRqJjOH/TG 6/TjXKJFp2BQcXVNfk8/dbMiMAN9R0mn3WidiK5c6sFO0YP15ZyAW7f9Kk8mlWKNNzCJ 4NNDGlToSm4G8pX7LfiazDGRLpqAz04JdJnCjoyTBhrnoAEt+JQTPzueAJw5Kv8Xbpjp FAWtk8IZQuOQ8QO3XWymO0r9YjeV8bFhILid0LFNiFcbadEQIb8T0pHqzs9VSyTB12ET B6Kw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=f4fm/wR3rVRgmnyX0vPkrGr5bLSfhUXbMHPbGxQzvgA=; b=NI2+MsZ0xzkCYMoVknRDb7KC/rjMpQzo8vE/feXGDRnvWi5sRZ8q0HePuFR93PxWO6 zy9K7x/uhoh8mL76UqtDQkTGN++0vpEPl2ks+Aswxhl/XGur5eCHKgU6+Yb4rqopXR3P OIsZkpaledSzVHzDlAoQUB1zBQklaQVRklhTOkQ71qaf0AW3lBxg2kA/4TcZBA/A0eD5 Wi5WxqZARJyyJCnuzE73N/P6Im4nIWr4aUXuvF+333JyVQ9fWvXLVuo287ZoPc6Zj3Nv UX3apMZ5U+a4cLaNobb/s/pwt1qG4nRVgiYiuN8C3y56XXpXF1tzEOr/5BEUQlpZVJ+N whfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5323Lad73fG9MKuv3OeXpszmz1g4K2gjD07o5WC+fkC6Q9JsjoqO hQBvWS8k6hXcWTgziMXtFkiZYFSQn9mUvFFfMWXV2UXCHXo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwba/Z7rCApp0mLDzGNxWTmlX+PjadTBbjjRI6uz+KHet+2K3Jfi79/k8pQp4lqIxhkEqtpv75lSkntU5sCJDc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:111:: with SMTP id a17mr2363401ljb.265.1594730694114; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 05:44:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <004e5fc9-e284-4c84-8a3c-7872ceb1d20b@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 05:44:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christian Huitema Cc: Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008910a205aa662c93" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:44:58 -0000 --0000000000008910a205aa662c93 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:33 PM Christian Huitema wrote: > On 7/13/2020 5:25 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, at 18:55, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > I think that this really depends on who you are and how you see the > world. There are people who are more afraid of the endpoints, given how > hard it has become to be able to know and choose who you (the > applications and devices you use) communicate with - so these people > would like to become intermediaries, or install intermediaries, to > regain control of their communications. > > I did not claim that this was addressing all of the problem. I agree tha= t not being able to trust endpoints that you bought and are responsible for= maintaining is a real problem. I disagree with the idea that more interme= diation is any sort of solution. > > Yes. There is a privacy argument that it is important to be able to > inspect what comes out of the device, in order to shine a big light on > possible privacy abuses. There are also two classes of counter arguments: > first, that weakening the data protection of these devices plays in the > hands of a variety of bad actors; and second, that in the case of compete= nt > device makers, inspecting the traffic won't reveal much. > > Take the example of a cloud-backed security camera. Inspecting the traffi= c > will show that it is sending streams of video images to the cloud service= . > That won't be a surprise, because that's exactly what the device is sold > for: send the images to a remote service, so the users can check the > security of their home from their cell phone in the office. At the same > time, just knowing that will not tell you that the images are harvested t= o > feed a facial recognition database, or that they are made available to th= e > police. That kind of abuse happens in the back end. And yes, there are re= al > life examples of door-bell cameras doing exactly that. And of course we > could define the same scenarios for thermostats, light bulbs and many mor= e. > > Asking the device makers for a way to inspect their traffic of such > devices won't give you much, and the back doors required for enabling tha= t > are almost guaranteed to be abused by hackers. What you really want is so= me > form of control on what happens to your data once they reach the cloud. > I agree that that would be good. Another approach is to have the devices be open source so that one can determine what it is they do, rather than attempting to reverse engineer it from the traffic. -Ekr --0000000000008910a205aa662c93 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:33 PM Chris= tian Huitema <h= uitema@huitema.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

On 7/13/2020 5:25 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:

On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, at 18:55, Vittorio Bertola wrote:

I think that this really depends on who you are and how you se=
e the=20
world. There are people who are more afraid of the endpoints, given how=20
hard it has become to be able to know and choose who you (the=20
applications and devices you use) communicate with - so these people=20
would like to become intermediaries, or install intermediaries, to=20
regain control of their communications.=20

I did not claim that this was addressing all of the problem.  I =
agree that not being able to trust endpoints that you bought and are respon=
sible for maintaining is a real problem.  I disagree with the idea that mor=
e intermediation is any sort of solution.

Yes. There is a privacy argument that it is important to be able to inspect what comes out of the device, in order to shine a big light on possible privacy abuses. There are also two classes of counter arguments: first, that weakening the data protection of these devices plays in the hands of a variety of bad actors; and second, that in the case of competent device makers, inspecting the traffic won't reveal much.

Take the example of a cloud-backed security camera. Inspecting the traffic will show that it is sending streams of video images to the cloud service. That won't be a surprise, because that'= s exactly what the device is sold for: send the images to a remote service, so the users can check the security of their home from their cell phone in the office. At the same time, just knowing that will not tell you that the images are harvested to feed a facial recognition database, or that they are made available to the police. That kind of abuse happens in the back end. And yes, there are real life examples of door-bell cameras doing exactly that. And of course we could define the same scenarios for thermostats, light bulbs and many more.

Asking the device makers for a way to inspect their traffic of such devices won't give you much, and the back doors required for enabling that are almost guaranteed to be abused by hackers. What you really want is some form of control on what happens to your data once they reach the cloud.

I agree that th= at would be good. Another approach is to have the devices be open source so= that one can determine what it is they do, rather than attempting to rever= se engineer it from the traffic.

-Ekr

--0000000000008910a205aa662c93-- From nobody Tue Jul 14 07:45:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DE133A0827 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 07:45:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iTKU8H6ALlnf for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 07:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A0273A079E for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 07:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse363.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.109] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx169.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jvMB7-000I0D-Fg for model-t@iab.org; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 16:45:10 +0200 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B5jwQ6qFyz1H5R for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 07:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.18] (helo=xmail08.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jvMAw-0001d6-Qr for model-t@iab.org; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 07:44:54 -0700 Received: (qmail 6796 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2020 14:44:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.107]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.46.169]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail08.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 14 Jul 2020 14:44:54 -0000 To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <004e5fc9-e284-4c84-8a3c-7872ceb1d20b@www.fastmail.com> From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/14/2020 5:44 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:33 PM Christian Huitema > wrote: > > On 7/13/2020 5:25 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, at 18:55, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >>> I think that this really depends on who you are and how you see the >>> world. There are people who are more afraid of the endpoints, given how >>> hard it has become to be able to know and choose who you (the >>> applications and devices you use) communicate with - so these people >>> would like to become intermediaries, or install intermediaries, to >>> regain control of their communications. >> I did not claim that this was addressing all of the problem. I agree that not being able to trust endpoints that you bought and are responsible for maintaining is a real problem. I disagree with the idea that more intermediation is any sort of solution. > > Yes. There is a privacy argument that it is important to be able > to inspect what comes out of the device, in order to shine a big > light on possible privacy abuses. There are also two classes of > counter arguments: first, that weakening the data protection of > these devices plays in the hands of a variety of bad actors; and > second, that in the case of competent device makers, inspecting > the traffic won't reveal much. > > Take the example of a cloud-backed security camera. Inspecting the > traffic will show that it is sending streams of video images to > the cloud service. That won't be a surprise, because that's > exactly what the device is sold for: send the images to a remote > service, so the users can check the security of their home from > their cell phone in the office. At the same time, just knowing > that will not tell you that the images are harvested to feed a > facial recognition database, or that they are made available to > the police. That kind of abuse happens in the back end. And yes, > there are real life examples of door-bell cameras doing exactly > that. And of course we could define the same scenarios for > thermostats, light bulbs and many more. > > Asking the device makers for a way to inspect their traffic of > such devices won't give you much, and the back doors required for > enabling that are almost guaranteed to be abused by hackers. What > you really want is some form of control on what happens to your > data once they reach the cloud. > > I agree that that would be good. Another approach is to have the > devices be open source so that one can determine what it is they do, > rather than attempting to reverse engineer it from the traffic. Open source the software is indeed a good idea but software these days is only partly on the device. Take the example of the doorbell camera. If you open source the software, you will verify that what it does is sending video streams to the cloud. You will not see that the cloud itself is forwarding the streams to the police, or doing face recognition and extracting meta-data to document your social graph. If the problem is in the cloud, the solution has to address the cloud. -- Christian Huitema --------------65CA83F5D53253A30AF995D1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


On 7/14/2020 5:44 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:


On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:33 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:

On 7/13/2020 5:25 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:

On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, at 18:55, Vittorio Bertola wrote:

I think that this really depends on who you are and how you see the 
world. There are people who are more afraid of the endpoints, given how 
hard it has become to be able to know and choose who you (the 
applications and devices you use) communicate with - so these people 
would like to become intermediaries, or install intermediaries, to 
regain control of their communications. 

I did not claim that this was addressing all of the problem.  I agree that not being able to trust endpoints that you bought and are responsible for maintaining is a real problem.  I disagree with the idea that more intermediation is any sort of solution.

Yes. There is a privacy argument that it is important to be able to inspect what comes out of the device, in order to shine a big light on possible privacy abuses. There are also two classes of counter arguments: first, that weakening the data protection of these devices plays in the hands of a variety of bad actors; and second, that in the case of competent device makers, inspecting the traffic won't reveal much.

Take the example of a cloud-backed security camera. Inspecting the traffic will show that it is sending streams of video images to the cloud service. That won't be a surprise, because that's exactly what the device is sold for: send the images to a remote service, so the users can check the security of their home from their cell phone in the office. At the same time, just knowing that will not tell you that the images are harvested to feed a facial recognition database, or that they are made available to the police. That kind of abuse happens in the back end. And yes, there are real life examples of door-bell cameras doing exactly that. And of course we could define the same scenarios for thermostats, light bulbs and many more.

Asking the device makers for a way to inspect their traffic of such devices won't give you much, and the back doors required for enabling that are almost guaranteed to be abused by hackers. What you really want is some form of control on what happens to your data once they reach the cloud.

I agree that that would be good. Another approach is to have the devices be open source so that one can determine what it is they do, rather than attempting to reverse engineer it from the traffic.


Open source the software is indeed a good idea but software these days is only partly on the device. Take the example of the doorbell camera. If you open source the software, you will verify that what it does is sending video streams to the cloud. You will not see that the cloud itself is forwarding the streams to the police, or doing face recognition and extracting meta-data to document your social graph. If the problem is in the cloud, the solution has to address the cloud.

-- Christian Huitema

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X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 15:27:35 -0000 Hello again! So there are at least 5 drafts (and potentially a few others) that we = could discuss during a model-t meeting this time around. Is there a plan = to do that? Happy to help! Dominique= From nobody Tue Jul 14 11:40:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8813A085B for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:40:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5tb5r3-jPdvK for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf42.google.com (mail-qv1-xf42.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DD2C3A0859 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf42.google.com with SMTP id a14so7971386qvq.6 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:40:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=j2JQ63Y1iFtwhynD3d9TKwTNxtVZRIqhKuHVXmsplGk=; b=DZ8AQKtviaXLbVZQPxMDT5NGDVUR6NrE0wYOJuMALeuXEuLL/V2I3EhNj+feNmtUKL ow2OnVSSHe64QLSuAqWjYIM7v7GRymn+58bKF30/W1m8a6JVxLwNAizxQm/kcf2ALBJN c+QPGx6swhq2+EJPbocbyXZc31dLhrn38V/9Y= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=j2JQ63Y1iFtwhynD3d9TKwTNxtVZRIqhKuHVXmsplGk=; b=D6fyEJ7cbqoE8lIia012DKBugIQsBPXBYgQQZbsU5k9WdfoRzk3+pbixszemPeIfic IE5qz7imln4wciseFQ/xSNxHD8mxKuRIdO4I2BN6jBBNu4IpYlO1h1v3AckT2ih2r8Ny Y1CV2nMlWJ+YaRHFWZNIaKh3l7Yfj2G8zaA4eAyt4dM6UMzhWbIPB8z6WQrEGzn5YzDI jV5y5Vszykm1kLWOpYN29aJAkl82jMnMvRVwe22n8TURpT4qPn8s+DbYhp7PCfN0T3cn wQCwViRTYJkkcMxH0meyD9NupS32N5vDxJT0JQI75rj7ZbFIzIO+K4a1ild5q7M2mQdn gxBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531t0Cw1sAjwBPt3GmOA9PwiE7sk9bzLOaHWbt5uAqWwSs31xUI8 +CK0KL/ka4JSiSVzdZSAqZNqLwXJO38= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyeI2+4/c1iDgS7s5bF/wwrpDRr2TaGTf3YngGHYw8NDvlaWIwWlyXITHjLD1+WVUxjPcDBrQ== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4744:: with SMTP id c4mr6126980qvx.126.1594752030826; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mallorys-MacBook-Air.local (c-73-163-188-207.hsd1.dc.comcast.net. [73.163.188.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b125sm20895272qkf.71.2020.07.14.11.40.30 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:40:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> From: Mallory Knodel Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 14:40:29 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:40:34 -0000 Section 5 makes me realise that there's a gap in protocol considerations related to shutdowns (also that 7754 might need an update). Joe Hall's draft has a section that overlaps both: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hall-censorship-tech-07#section-3.1. -M On 7/13/20 12:32 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: > There have been a lot of discussions recently about the threat model, but I thought that I would contribute something concrete. > > This is an attempt to capture what I believe to be the principles behind some of the more prominent recent protocol design efforts. In some ways this is a broader take than that in RFC 8558, which was a discussion of transport protocols. QUIC very much embodies these principles, but I could point to a number of other efforts across the IETF. The principles I recommend are: > > 1. Prefer designs without intermediaries > > 2. Failing that, control which entities can intermediate the protocol, and > > 3. Limit actions and information that are available to intermediaries > > The draft is here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-thomson-tmi-00 > A live HTML version is here: https://martinthomson.github.io/tmi/draft-thomson-tmi.html > And if you feel motivated to contribute, on GitHub: https://github.com/martinthomson/tmi > > This might not be the right venue to discuss something like this, but as this came out of discussions in Singapore, I thought I would share it here. This is less about the threat model than a specific response to some of the threats we've discussed; to that end, it probably isn't in the charter of this group, but I hope that it informs discussion. > -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Tue Jul 14 11:56:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39033A088A for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:56:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Name: draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cless Revision: 02 Title: Endpoint Taxonomy for CLESS Document date: 2020-07-12 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 18 URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxono= my-for-cless-02.txt Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-f= or-cless/ Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonomy-for-cl= ess-02 Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxon= omy-for-cless Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-mcfadden-smart-endpoint-taxonom= y-for-cless-02 Abstract: A separate document [I-D:draft-taddei-smart-cless-introduction] (CLESS) attempts to establish the capabilities and limitations of endpoint-only security solutions and explore potential alternative approaches. That document discusses endpoints in general terms. It has been suggested that there are classes of endpoints that have different characteristics. Those classes may have completely different threat landscapes and the endpoints may have completely different security capabilities. In support of the work on CLESS, this document provides a taxonomy of endpoints that is intended to provide a foundation for further work on CLESS and research on approaches to providing endpoint security alternatives in a diverse group of settings. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHDnNGiLZEPDLVzSDAVG42SDvJNu6ks50FA Content-Language: en-us X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: 0 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrfedtgddufeegucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpehrhffvfhgjufffohfkgggtgffothesthhqghdtvddtjeenucfhrhhomhepoehmrghrkhesihhnthgvrhhnvghtphholhhitgihrgguvhhishhorhhsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekleetgfdugeeufeeihffhtddvleeiueelgeeludeftdffvdfhueefieefudeivdenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecukfhppeegjedrfeegrdehledrudeinecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgepudenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghlohepmfgrhhhlohdpihhnvghtpeegjedrfeegrdehledrudeipdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpeeomhgrrhhksehinhhtvghrnhgvthhpohhlihgthigrughvihhsohhrshdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhgrrhhksehinhhtvghrnhgvthhpohhlihgthigrughvihhsohhrshdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepmhhouggvlhdqthesihgrsgdrohhrgh Archived-At: Subject: [Model-t] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mcfadden-smart-threat-changes-01.txt X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:56:44 -0000 A new version of I-D, draft-mcfadden-smart-threat-changes-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Mark McFadden and posted to the IETF = repository. Name: draft-mcfadden-smart-threat-changes Revision: 01 Title: BCP72 - A Problem Statement Document date: 2020-07-09 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 10 URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mcfadden-smart-threat-changes-= 01.txt Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mcfadden-smart-threat-changes/ Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mcfadden-smart-threat-changes-01 Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mcfadden-smart-threat-changes= Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-mcfadden-smart-threat-changes-0= 1 Abstract: RFC3552/BCP72 describes an Internet Threat model that has been used in Internet protocol design. More than sixteen years have passed since RFC3552 was written and the structure and topology of the Internet has changed. With those changes comes a question: has the Internet Threat Model changed? Or, is the model described in RFC3552 still largely accurate? This draft attempts to describe an non- exhaustive list of changes in the current threat environment. It finds that there are both qualitative and quantitative differences from the environment described in RFC3552 and is intended as input to the IAB program on the Internet threat model started in 2020. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Wed Jul 15 07:11:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B17B23A0AF7 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 07:11:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eUojkI_dB_UD for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 07:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9EED3A0ADB for ; 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Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:11:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:11:08 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org Message-ID: <517633588.3236.1594822270008@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <004e5fc9-e284-4c84-8a3c-7872ceb1d20b@www.fastmail.com> References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <004e5fc9-e284-4c84-8a3c-7872ceb1d20b@www.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev17 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:11:16 -0000 > Il 14/07/2020 02:25 Martin Thomson ha scritto: > > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, at 18:55, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > I think that this really depends on who you are and how you see the > > world. There are people who are more afraid of the endpoints, given how > > hard it has become to be able to know and choose who you (the > > applications and devices you use) communicate with - so these people > > would like to become intermediaries, or install intermediaries, to > > regain control of their communications. > > I did not claim that this was addressing all of the problem. I agree that not being able to trust endpoints that you bought and are responsible for maintaining is a real problem. I disagree with the idea that more intermediation is any sort of solution. Part of the problem of this discussion is that different technical and operational communities have different hammers and so are looking to treat everything as if it were a different kind of nail. I mean, you could easily reverse your consideration and agree that not being able to trust intermediaries that you bought Internet service from is a problem, but disagree that less intermediation is any sort of solution. Or, to Eric's comment, if you make browsers you will use browser-based ad blocking and that will seem to you the common way of doing it, while if you run DNS resolvers (or raspis with a Pi-hole) you will use DNS-based ad blocking and that will seem to you the common way of doing it. Possibly end-usage statistics reflect the dominance of global platforms over local network operators - I don't know the numbers. But in the end, I do not know how to reconcile radically different views on where services should be provided from. This is not a technical disagreement, it is more of an architectural and philosophical one with business and geopolitical implications. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Tue Jul 21 06:12:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D943A083C for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 06:12:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T--KFHPpcVjg for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 06:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17B6D3A0880 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 06:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id k17so11649311lfg.3 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 06:12:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dGSnzyekbMrRNmLyAXvEyIF5aOfEKYmuNQRSjSIPyhs=; b=KZ8B99xg+Csqb1NJsQ7GH8c99ptbAcgiZX+0zW6RH6tty/juQALb6MgCtyuU3rFOtd O9B2Hoo+hhnPNNp8SdW/2C6kDmDsfJ3b5v4ODiaMV87+g4exEq+wT21UTX9g9iCmWgWg vM9qCtmejqTlAnqVoV1d/q/phgtLMagb8d9/9T+JpabfC8uctEgobZKsxNWJOkXFtoLn s+/8vQSDAmF8qta6+A601ZbnShl/KBI666C2erjgNUVJOg6zkru3tCPWLEJBZm2esGxB CeeHtKyov7gTxECx3AE5fjDdKcnn/n9LwE95ulYuObHYw9Iy2ipmZ3YvOw56l1Ig1OWP HMRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dGSnzyekbMrRNmLyAXvEyIF5aOfEKYmuNQRSjSIPyhs=; b=o75YIshQiqr1YQUoTYP9nPdoQ+pfTjwcbIBz1t7KngtgyvDosld+ncwpOvJCjOBxlZ 4VtF38cs5MBRll3yQCTQbm9uiXiMxfCU1b9kQCAGPKf97btQzxrJUO0lJm1NF62UMYTk WKxKnIfYxeA8Hs647U8E+UNHkbYyVhVUxftnGhsP4Jg3vNoGIg7Ft0wGZbooVpoBaYzT WrtTGu6lZXkciVY7z63XA5QvNooRSDQBjgMZiiturJQLIJMWtK0Pv8F0PcTnOn3NCL/8 H3obPPWRYROGAWcWJ3CCNxvBr1vnNEXPqNsuCUCpovdGqb91GU9OL5chG/tg9+FiXaso M9ig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530L/XnvLkDF1XkgcdNLloHVqvaKWTesTHq/KGJPoPxJ9w4vv3a4 AHtvXI4qsKGF9ENsLVneSp+zXOx15d8nj4mpV74= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJoFa64Pd81kKvD1sCbaL6nr0t1zHxx15M2Qhr8SVNvheomS8WvUqx1/giOJL7f97aytYAmgKZGu80XY2zOb0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:304e:: with SMTP id b14mr13512015lfb.137.1595337122206; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 06:12:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <004e5fc9-e284-4c84-8a3c-7872ceb1d20b@www.fastmail.com> <517633588.3236.1594822270008@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <517633588.3236.1594822270008@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:11:36 -0500 Message-ID: To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000077588805aaf35e91" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 13:12:06 -0000 --00000000000077588805aaf35e91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I'm interested in this topic, but have no special expertise. >From my point of view, On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 9:11 AM Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > Part of the problem of this discussion is that different technical and > operational communities have different hammers and so are looking to treat > everything as if it were a different kind of nail. I mean, you could easily > reverse your consideration and agree that not being able to trust > intermediaries that you bought Internet service from is a problem, but > disagree that less intermediation is any sort of solution. > > Or, to Eric's comment, if you make browsers you will use browser-based ad > blocking and that will seem to you the common way of doing it, while if you > run DNS resolvers (or raspis with a Pi-hole) you will use DNS-based ad > blocking and that will seem to you the common way of doing it. Possibly > end-usage statistics reflect the dominance of global platforms over local > network operators - I don't know the numbers. > > But in the end, I do not know how to reconcile radically different views > on where services should be provided from. This is not a technical > disagreement, it is more of an architectural and philosophical one with > business and geopolitical implications. > seems especially relevant. Best, Spencer --00000000000077588805aaf35e91 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm interested in this topic, but hav= e no special expertise.=C2=A0

From my point of view,=C2= =A0

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 9:11 AM Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bert= ola=3D40open-xchange.c= om@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Part of the problem of this discussion is that differe= nt technical and operational communities have different hammers and so are = looking to treat everything as if it were a different kind of nail. I mean,= you could easily reverse your consideration and agree that not being able = to trust intermediaries that you bought Internet service from is a problem,= but disagree that less intermediation is any sort of solution.

Or, to Eric's comment, if you make browsers you will use browser-based = ad blocking and that will seem to you the common way of doing it, while if = you run DNS resolvers (or raspis with a Pi-hole) you will use DNS-based ad = blocking and that will seem to you the common way of doing it. Possibly end= -usage statistics reflect the dominance of global platforms over local netw= ork operators - I don't know the numbers.

But in the end, I do not know how to reconcile radically different views on= where services should be provided from. This is not a technical disagreeme= nt, it is more of an architectural and philosophical one with business and = geopolitical implications.

seems especi= ally relevant.

Best,

Spen= cer=C2=A0
--00000000000077588805aaf35e91-- From nobody Tue Jul 21 07:03:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DB23A08C6 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 07:03:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pp0SqzQitMvw for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 07:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 171343A08C3 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 07:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee7007a007021f43412008183.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e700:7a00:7021:f434:1200:8183]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1jxsrE-0006ZG-EW; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 16:03:00 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <8d7b79d6-22f6-2212-d3c1-9b6580cea009@huitema.net> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 16:02:56 +0200 Cc: Eric Rescorla , Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <825777D0-B098-466F-A832-BC7CAB01A9F9@kuehlewind.net> References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <004e5fc9-e284-4c84-8a3c-7872ceb1d20b@www.fastmail.com> <8d7b79d6-22f6-2212-d3c1-9b6580cea009@huitema.net> To: Christian Huitema X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1595340184;d55cabbf; X-HE-SMSGID: 1jxsrE-0006ZG-EW Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:03:06 -0000 Hi Christian, I agree that the even bigger problem is that the user looses control = about its data as soon as the data has left their own network and = devices. However, that doesn=E2=80=99t mean it is not important to have = some control or at least visibility about what data leaves your network. = I would say the opposite is the case. The solution to the problem about = how your data is maintained is probably regulatory or could be =E2=80=9Cju= st don=E2=80=99t install a cloud-backed camera=E2=80=9D. Instead, you = could probably use a camera that connects to your own gateway to provide = this service. However, in this case I really want to make sure that = camera really only connects to my gateway and does not also streams the = video to the cloud or the police (not even occasionally). At the same = time, I guess I still wouldn=E2=80=99t want to block all traffic = entirely because I still want to make updates and such. In the end = it=E2=80=99s a matter of trust and I might actually trust an independent = third-party more than the various IoT companies. Mirja > On 14. Jul 2020, at 16:44, Christian Huitema = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 7/14/2020 5:44 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:33 PM Christian Huitema = wrote: >> On 7/13/2020 5:25 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>=20 >>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, at 18:55, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >>>=20 >>>> I think that this really depends on who you are and how you see the=20= >>>> world. There are people who are more afraid of the endpoints, given = how=20 >>>> hard it has become to be able to know and choose who you (the=20 >>>> applications and devices you use) communicate with - so these = people=20 >>>> would like to become intermediaries, or install intermediaries, to=20= >>>> regain control of their communications.=20 >>>>=20 >>> I did not claim that this was addressing all of the problem. I = agree that not being able to trust endpoints that you bought and are = responsible for maintaining is a real problem. I disagree with the idea = that more intermediation is any sort of solution. >> Yes. There is a privacy argument that it is important to be able to = inspect what comes out of the device, in order to shine a big light on = possible privacy abuses. There are also two classes of counter = arguments: first, that weakening the data protection of these devices = plays in the hands of a variety of bad actors; and second, that in the = case of competent device makers, inspecting the traffic won't reveal = much. >>=20 >> Take the example of a cloud-backed security camera. Inspecting the = traffic will show that it is sending streams of video images to the = cloud service. That won't be a surprise, because that's exactly what the = device is sold for: send the images to a remote service, so the users = can check the security of their home from their cell phone in the = office. At the same time, just knowing that will not tell you that the = images are harvested to feed a facial recognition database, or that they = are made available to the police. That kind of abuse happens in the back = end. And yes, there are real life examples of door-bell cameras doing = exactly that. And of course we could define the same scenarios for = thermostats, light bulbs and many more. >>=20 >> Asking the device makers for a way to inspect their traffic of such = devices won't give you much, and the back doors required for enabling = that are almost guaranteed to be abused by hackers. What = you really want is some form of control on what happens to your data = once they reach the cloud. >>=20 >> I agree that that would be good. Another approach is to have the = devices be open source so that one can determine what it is they do, = rather than attempting to reverse engineer it from the traffic. >=20 >=20 > Open source the software is indeed a good idea but software these days = is only partly on the device. Take the example of the doorbell camera. = If you open source the software, you will verify that what it does is = sending video streams to the cloud. You will not see that the cloud = itself is forwarding the streams to the police, or doing face = recognition and extracting meta-data to document your social graph. If = the problem is in the cloud, the solution has to address the cloud. >=20 > -- Christian Huitema >=20 > --=20 > Model-t mailing list > Model-t@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t From nobody Tue Jul 21 08:29:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0591E3A09D1 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:29:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rd6BngPy7GyF for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD9443A0842 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.100] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BB2b40vNZzyVg; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:29:52 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <825777D0-B098-466F-A832-BC7CAB01A9F9@kuehlewind.net> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:29:51 +0200 Cc: Christian Huitema , Eric Rescorla , Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 617038191.388932-d47e09df1882cd094ef27384c28a290d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <012A2EDB-4F72-4FE3-8B43-08ACB858BF95@tzi.org> References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <004e5fc9-e284-4c84-8a3c-7872ceb1d20b@www.fastmail.com> <8d7b79d6-22f6-2212-d3c1-9b6580cea009@huitema.net> <825777D0-B098-466F-A832-BC7CAB01A9F9@kuehlewind.net> To: Mirja Kuehlewind X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 15:29:57 -0000 On 2020-07-21, at 16:02, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >=20 > I agree that the even bigger problem is that the user looses control = about its data as soon as the data has left their own network and = devices. However, that doesn=E2=80=99t mean it is not important to have = some control or at least visibility about what data leaves your network. = I would say the opposite is the case. The solution to the problem about = how your data is maintained is probably regulatory=20 Yes. The interesting question here is what kind of protocol support is = needed to support a regulatory framework. =D0=94=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B5=D1=80=D1= =8F=D0=B9, =D0=BD=D0=BE =D0=BF=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B5=D1=80=D1=8F=D0=B9. For instance, I would like to be sure that the data my electricity meter = is sending to my electricity broker is what it is supposed to be, and = not anything else, whether for criminal intent or gross negligence. I = can just trust my electricity broker and the electricity meter, and I = have to trust the broker anyway once they have their hands on the data. = But with respect to what data is leaving my house, it would be better if = I had some visibility. > or could be =E2=80=9Cjust don=E2=80=99t install a cloud-backed = camera=E2=80=9D. Instead, you could probably use a camera that connects = to your own gateway to provide this service. However, in this case I = really want to make sure that camera really only connects to my gateway = and does not also streams the video to the cloud or the police (not even = occasionally). At the same time, I guess I still wouldn=E2=80=99t want = to block all traffic entirely because I still want to make updates and = such. In the end it=E2=80=99s a matter of trust and I might actually = trust an independent third-party more than the various IoT companies. Any reasonable model needs to be able to enable =D0=B4=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B5=D1= =80=D1=8F=D0=B9, =D0=BD=D0=BE =D0=BF=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B5=D1=80=D1=8F=D0= =B9. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Jul 21 17:01:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57DF33A0843 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:01:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0bz2GQY380RD for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x143.google.com (mail-lf1-x143.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3B8C3A0842 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x143.google.com with SMTP id u25so312945lfm.1 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:01:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XztR0oW4S+9dfNxn6ouV+/271REhNgyyGVtsL9G/biU=; b=KiDGryb8VgkncDyTohKB4LYlBurBla8PeWJl0/0MlmdxC7WGI24MW9xYxWEOI0y0Nz i89OL3Wjve1MoZkcVsnbPykel+o5OmeZGarsaAoqI7X5fwPRTLOVVqp1oyYUYq3EAQpm VnrB//rvkR1YaTH6Kuuf/tGsA99KkS1/s5QDoR+vRoizNl/MDOdtXlfbaXEt4G5Wb5Ns A2CR1dql9NSKe2f7DGyoZbaD62B8A+Xrz8CtaF7/CjLSc6Mgqe4C9c0QoLRgCXd5xm+c flZZZL0TUepLkG4Qbs94pJRZp+yrRltaKdpoFGb67CBqWw5+/HO1hyTXA/V0Yk7ja8qz GGvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XztR0oW4S+9dfNxn6ouV+/271REhNgyyGVtsL9G/biU=; b=gak/ZxlUaB4fRUJgp/vz1Jy19beJw2bAC3Q3jGgJrNSXmVVcLpPRvSy++oQSx8NGUm e6vwHXoAhPDpsHKpjUZ/GeBQtdfBofxsYsGmHmuoy+QMgl2r0N/cFdzs+Em/xwOu+Fus hz05BI7e6sAZQCPf9GHU0C60Tzyz/zxXCgw0y8I9UbyPgHc/lAMM1z0Kd4+IFGv0NsgX E6uOLTHc+5xlMl6n24HDtekaLolgx+cJ2fdEEK+Ds2qhI8QIiduSBzxmrqH6Je+gbKoa JiD1znZNjITLMEuD7OZsf1qgg6JolulFAEnRHdyAi2v57ubAlx9Kh5e3jbJLknKddFrE iJIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533pgznjpteXuQ7hoctK7ZhdFmXgocHRP6ytIrcjvPq8XEb1GeOz Qh9OVWRgmPc2oAesdRBHZANc8Uh331lYs5MGdLY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy9o/pdKFj1ifL0fpodV2izCj/9tlsUA+6yK4tXvoirUI7GBu8Ud2+UDNx2XUno30W3cRfzwFKeMDf3sRXpzYA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3249:: with SMTP id c9mr14732121lfr.216.1595376084612; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:01:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <004e5fc9-e284-4c84-8a3c-7872ceb1d20b@www.fastmail.com> <8d7b79d6-22f6-2212-d3c1-9b6580cea009@huitema.net> <825777D0-B098-466F-A832-BC7CAB01A9F9@kuehlewind.net> <012A2EDB-4F72-4FE3-8B43-08ACB858BF95@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <012A2EDB-4F72-4FE3-8B43-08ACB858BF95@tzi.org> From: Watson Ladd Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 20:01:13 -0400 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , Eric Rescorla , Christian Huitema , Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 00:01:28 -0000 On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 11:30 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > > On 2020-07-21, at 16:02, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > > > I agree that the even bigger problem is that the user looses control ab= out its data as soon as the data has left their own network and devices. Ho= wever, that doesn=E2=80=99t mean it is not important to have some control o= r at least visibility about what data leaves your network. I would say the = opposite is the case. The solution to the problem about how your data is ma= intained is probably regulatory > > Yes. The interesting question here is what kind of protocol support is n= eeded to support a regulatory framework. =D0=94=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B5=D1=80=D1= =8F=D0=B9, =D0=BD=D0=BE =D0=BF=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B5=D1=80=D1=8F=D0=B9. > > For instance, I would like to be sure that the data my electricity meter = is sending to my electricity broker is what it is supposed to be, and not a= nything else, whether for criminal intent or gross negligence. I can just = trust my electricity broker and the electricity meter, and I have to trust = the broker anyway once they have their hands on the data. But with respect= to what data is leaving my house, it would be better if I had some visibil= ity. > > > or could be =E2=80=9Cjust don=E2=80=99t install a cloud-backed camera= =E2=80=9D. Instead, you could probably use a camera that connects to your o= wn gateway to provide this service. However, in this case I really want to = make sure that camera really only connects to my gateway and does not also = streams the video to the cloud or the police (not even occasionally). At th= e same time, I guess I still wouldn=E2=80=99t want to block all traffic ent= irely because I still want to make updates and such. In the end it=E2=80=99= s a matter of trust and I might actually trust an independent third-party m= ore than the various IoT companies. > > Any reasonable model needs to be able to enable =D0=B4=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B5= =D1=80=D1=8F=D0=B9, =D0=BD=D0=BE =D0=BF=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B5=D1=80=D1=8F= =D0=B9. If by reasonable you mean requiring one of several extremely complicated tricks to ensure data can be inspected without revealing it in plaintext, then this is "reasonable". Preventing subliminal channels is extraordinarily difficult. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > -- > Model-t mailing list > Model-t@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t -- "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains". --Rousseau. From nobody Tue Jul 21 18:14:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA7023A07A2 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 18:14:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f5M29-2sg-bJ for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 18:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3BA83A078C for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 18:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse423.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.169] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx128.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jy3KY-000Wkz-ES for model-t@iab.org; Wed, 22 Jul 2020 03:13:59 +0200 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BBHXz3srQz2DPv for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 18:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.15] (helo=xmail05.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jy3KV-0001UL-Ck for model-t@iab.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 18:13:55 -0700 Received: (qmail 30849 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2020 01:13:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.107]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.134]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail05.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 22 Jul 2020 01:13:55 -0000 To: Watson Ladd , Carsten Bormann Cc: Eric Rescorla , Mirja Kuehlewind , Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org References: <422978b2-028d-48e1-85ed-ddaa36e36052@www.fastmail.com> <1164022876.4302.1594630518489@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <004e5fc9-e284-4c84-8a3c-7872ceb1d20b@www.fastmail.com> <8d7b79d6-22f6-2212-d3c1-9b6580cea009@huitema.net> <825777D0-B098-466F-A832-BC7CAB01A9F9@kuehlewind.net> <012A2EDB-4F72-4FE3-8B43-08ACB858BF95@tzi.org> From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/21/2020 5:01 PM, Watson Ladd wrote: > On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 11:30 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 2020-07-21, at 16:02, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:= >>> I agree that the even bigger problem is that the user looses control = about its data as soon as the data has left their own network and devices= =2E However, that doesn=E2=80=99t mean it is not important to have some c= ontrol or at least visibility about what data leaves your network. I woul= d say the opposite is the case. The solution to the problem about how you= r data is maintained is probably regulatory >> Yes. The interesting question here is what kind of protocol support i= s needed to support a regulatory framework. =D0=94=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B5=D1=80= =D1=8F=D0=B9, =D0=BD=D0=BE =D0=BF=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B5=D1=80=D1=8F=D0=B9= =2E >> >> For instance, I would like to be sure that the data my electricity met= er is sending to my electricity broker is what it is supposed to be, and = not anything else, whether for criminal intent or gross negligence. I ca= n just trust my electricity broker and the electricity meter, and I have = to trust the broker anyway once they have their hands on the data. But w= ith respect to what data is leaving my house, it would be better if I had= some visibility. >> >>> or could be =E2=80=9Cjust don=E2=80=99t install a cloud-backed camera= =E2=80=9D. Instead, you could probably use a camera that connects to your= own gateway to provide this service. However, in this case I really want= to make sure that camera really only connects to my gateway and does not= also streams the video to the cloud or the police (not even occasionally= ). At the same time, I guess I still wouldn=E2=80=99t want to block all t= raffic entirely because I still want to make updates and such. In the end= it=E2=80=99s a matter of trust and I might actually trust an independent= third-party more than the various IoT companies. >> Any reasonable model needs to be able to enable =D0=B4=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B5= =D1=80=D1=8F=D0=B9, =D0=BD=D0=BE =D0=BF=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B5=D1=80=D1=8F= =D0=B9. > If by reasonable you mean requiring one of several extremely > complicated tricks to ensure data can be inspected without revealing > it in plaintext, then this is "reasonable". Preventing subliminal > channels is extraordinarily difficult. Recently, I had a discussion with Paul Vixie about the "LeakyPick" tool (https://arxiv.org/pdf/2007.00500.pdf). Researchers at TU Darmstadt, INRIA and North Carolina State develop the tool to audit Internet connected microphones like Alexa and its competitors. The tool would play prerecorded sentences in front of the microphone, and see whether the device picked a word as a keyword. They would verify that by looking at the encrypted traffic coming out of the device. If the device did not pick the keyword, it would not send any data, but if it did there would be a burst of traffic. Encrypted traffic of course, but the activity could still be detected. Paul's point was that yes, this could be detected now, but there is no guarantee that it could be detected tomorrow. If they know they are being watched, device developers could start adding counter-measures, like cover traffic. Indeed, doing just that became standard for audio conferences after attacks where published that detected silence-voice transitions or length of phonemes in the encrypted traffic. Now, voice codec just send at a constant bit rate, independent of the variations in speech. The point is that we may have ways to inspect traffic today, but that does not guarantee we will be able to keep doing that tomorrow. Unless of course there is a clear requirement that devices can be audited -- and we need regulations for that. -- Christian Huitema --------------DCF8066DB6EE789957DCBECA Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 7/21/2020 5:01 PM, Watson Ladd wrote:

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 11:30 AM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

On 2020-07-21, at 16:02, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:

I agree that the even bigger problem is that the user looses control about its data as soon as the data has left their own network and devices. However, that doesn’t mean it is not important to have some control or at least visibility about what data leaves your network. I would say the opposite is the case. The solution to the problem about how your data is maintained is probably regulatory

Yes.  The interesting question here is what kind of protocol support is needed to support a regulatory framework.  Доверяй, но проверяй.

For instance, I would like to be sure that the data my electricity meter is sending to my electricity broker is what it is supposed to be, and not anything else, whether for criminal intent or gross negligence.  I can just trust my electricity broker and the electricity meter, and I have to trust the broker anyway once they have their hands on the data.  But with respect to what data is leaving my house, it would be better if I had some visibility.


or could be “just don’t install a cloud-backed camera”. Instead, you could probably use a camera that connects to your own gateway to provide this service. However, in this case I really want to make sure that camera really only connects to my gateway and does not also streams the video to the cloud or the police (not even occasionally). At the same time, I guess I still wouldn’t want to block all traffic entirely because I still want to make updates and such. In the end it’s a matter of trust and I might actually trust an independent third-party more than the various IoT companies.

Any reasonable model needs to be able to enable доверяй, но проверяй.

If by reasonable you mean requiring one of several extremely
complicated tricks to ensure data can be inspected without revealing
it in plaintext, then this is "reasonable".  Preventing subliminal
channels is extraordinarily difficult.

Recently, I had a discussion with Paul Vixie about the "LeakyPick" tool (https://arxiv.org/pdf/2007.00500.pdf). Researchers at TU Darmstadt, INRIA and North Carolina State develop the tool to audit Internet connected microphones like Alexa and its competitors. The tool would play prerecorded sentences in front of the microphone, and see whether the device picked a word as a keyword. They would verify that by looking at the encrypted traffic coming out of the device. If the device did not pick the keyword, it would not send any data, but if it did there would be a burst of traffic. Encrypted traffic of course, but the activity could still be detected.

Paul's point was that yes, this could be detected now, but there is no guarantee that it could be detected tomorrow. If they know they are being watched, device developers could start adding counter-measures, like cover traffic. Indeed, doing just that became standard for audio conferences after attacks where published that detected silence-voice transitions or length of phonemes in the encrypted traffic. Now, voice codec just send at a constant bit rate, independent of the variations in speech. The point is that we may have ways to inspect traffic today, but that does not guarantee we will be able to keep doing that tomorrow.

Unless of course there is a clear requirement that devices can be audited -- and we need regulations for that.

-- Christian Huitema


    

  


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On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, at 11:13, Christian Huitema wrote:
> Now, voice 
> codec just send at a constant bit rate, independent of the variations 
> in speech. 

I don't believe that this is true.  I don't think that countermeasures against these attacks are very widely implemented.  There is definite leakage, particularly for things like IVRs, so that might be worrying.  Of course, my information is a little dated.

> Unless of course there is a clear requirement that devices can be 
> audited -- and we need regulations for that.

That seems to be the only real solution here.


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On 2020-07-22, at 03:13, Christian Huitema  wrote:
>=20
> Now, voice codec just send at a constant bit rate, independent of the =
variations in speech.=20

Actually, there is a body of literature about extracting information, =
such as the language being used or even the content of the speech =
itself, from encrypted variable-bitrate codecs such as those used in =
CDMA.

E.g., https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1880022.1880029

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Cc: Christian Huitema , Watson Ladd , Eric Rescorla , Mirja Kuehlewind , Martin Thomson , model-t@iab.org
To: Carsten Bormann 
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Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi
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> On 22 Jul 2020, at 14:15, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
> On 2020-07-22, at 03:13, Christian Huitema  =
wrote:
>>=20
>> Now, voice codec just send at a constant bit rate, independent of the =
variations in speech.=20
>=20
> Actually, there is a body of literature about extracting information, =
such as the language being used or even the content of the speech =
itself, from encrypted variable-bitrate codecs such as those used in =
CDMA.
>=20
> E.g., https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1880022.1880029



Also https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6562 =
 ("Guidelines for the Use of =
Variable Bit Rate Audio with Secure RTP=E2=80=9D) which warns about this =
issue.


--=20
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/





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On =
22 Jul 2020, at 14:15, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On 2020-07-22, at 03:13, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>=
 wrote:
Now, voice codec just send =
at a constant bit rate, independent of the variations in speech. 

Actually, there is a body of =
literature about extracting information, such as the language being used =
or even the content of the speech itself, from encrypted =
variable-bitrate codecs such as those used in CDMA.

E.g., https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1880022.1880029


Also https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6562 ("Guidelines for =
the Use of Variable Bit Rate Audio with Secure RTP=E2=80=9D) which warns =
about this issue.



-- 
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/








=

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Subject: Re: [Model-t] draft-thomson-tmi
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On 7/22/2020 5:35 AM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, at 11:13, Christian Huitema wrote:
>> Now, voice=20
>> codec just send at a constant bit rate, independent of the variations =

>> in speech.=20
> I don't believe that this is true.  I don't think that countermeasures =
against these attacks are very widely implemented.  There is definite lea=
kage, particularly for things like IVRs, so that might be worrying.  Of c=
ourse, my information is a little dated.
>
>> Unless of course there is a clear requirement that devices can be=20
>> audited -- and we need regulations for that.
> That seems to be the only real solution here.

Yes. I see the other messages from Colin and Carsten pointing out that
the audio leakage issue is not always fixed in encrypted voice, despite
being well known. I stand corrected and my trust in VoIP services is
notched down one point lower still, but the general point stands. The
general point is that a lot of the device inspection work going on today
amounts to exploiting bugs in the devices. Bugs in the PKI
implementation allow research to conduct MITM attacks and inspect the
traffic, absence of masking traffic or constant length padding allow for
detection of voice activity. There are obviously many bugs in at least
some devices, which can be used in practice for some inspection. But I
don't believe we can rely on that forever. If privacy researchers can
exploit the bugs, so can a variety of hackers. We would rather get the
bugs fixed. But then, we do need a requirement to allow inspection.

My other point is that the most egregious leakage happens in the cloud.
Yes, like Mirja suggests, I would personally not install cloud backed
devices in my house. But that's a trade-off between function and safety,
and today I don't believe we can impose that trade-off to the public at
large. That mean that if there is to be regulation of devices, it has to
address the cloud as well.

-- Christian Huitema



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To: "model-t@iab.org" 
From: Stephen Farrell 
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Message-ID: <3b6e35a3-288b-0c95-f7c8-ddf56491102a@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 17:31:05 +0100
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Subject: [Model-t] couple of slides and a couple of meetings
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From: Stephen Farrell 
To: "model-t@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <3b6e35a3-288b-0c95-f7c8-ddf56491102a@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: couple of slides and a couple of meetings

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Hi all,

First, apologies for my total lack of activity on this
topic in the last while. I can only offer the usual
"busy elsewhere" excuse, sorry. Anyway, I should have
time again for this in the next while, so will try to
help move the discussion along some...

I'll start a doodle poll for a virtual meeting some
time in Aug/early-Sep and we can see what works. Will
send a bunch of possible dates in a while.

Meanwhile, Jari suggested that if people happen to be
free this week, we can try for an informal chat on
Thursday 30th at 1610 UTC. I realise that's awful for
TZ reasons for some people and we're suggesting that
with no notice at all, but it's really just an effort
to have a chat with whomever's about so let's give it
a shot and see if it's useful. I'll setup a webex thing
for that time and send details to the list tomorrow.

There's also an IAB open meeting tomorrow where we'll put
up a couple of slides about model-t. Those are attached.
If I've missed out on anyone's draft please ping me and
I'll fix that.

Cheers and sorry again for all the inactivity,
Stephen.


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--------------8597AB6872A698E19A7EFBBB
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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To: "model-t@iab.org" 
From: Stephen Farrell 
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Subject: [Model-t] Fwd: Webex meeting scheduled: informal IAB model-t chat
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From: Stephen Farrell 
To: "model-t@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <989a2f7c-aeb7-b298-d76d-e2569ed31bb2@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Fwd: Webex meeting scheduled: informal IAB model-t chat
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-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Webex meeting scheduled: informal IAB model-t chat
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:37:44 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-From: alias-bounces@ietf.org
Resent-To: stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie, malisa.vucinic@inria.fr
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 16:37:39 +0000 (GMT)
From: LAKE WG 
Reply-To: lake-chairs@ietf.org
To: lake-chairs@ietf.org


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--------------7D67739DDF082316134723F5
Content-Type: application/pgp-keys;
 name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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From nobody Mon Jul 27 09:40:56 2020
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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:40:39 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk 
To: Stephen Farrell 
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Subject: Re: [Model-t] couple of slides and a couple of meetings
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On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 05:31:05PM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> First, apologies for my total lack of activity on this
> topic in the last while. I can only offer the usual
> "busy elsewhere" excuse, sorry. Anyway, I should have
> time again for this in the next while, so will try to
> help move the discussion along some...
> 
> I'll start a doodle poll for a virtual meeting some
> time in Aug/early-Sep and we can see what works. Will
> send a bunch of possible dates in a while.
> 
> Meanwhile, Jari suggested that if people happen to be
> free this week, we can try for an informal chat on
> Thursday 30th at 1610 UTC. I realise that's awful for
> TZ reasons for some people and we're suggesting that
> with no notice at all, but it's really just an effort
> to have a chat with whomever's about so let's give it
> a shot and see if it's useful. I'll setup a webex thing
> for that time and send details to the list tomorrow.
> 
> There's also an IAB open meeting tomorrow where we'll put
> up a couple of slides about model-t. Those are attached.
> If I've missed out on anyone's draft please ping me and
> I'll fix that.

We also have an item on the SAAG agenda on Thursday that could
evolve into model-t-related topics.  IIRC, no one has sent
any materials in (yet) for that, though.

-Ben


From nobody Tue Jul 28 02:36:43 2020
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From: Dominique Lazanski 
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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:36:31 +0100
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Cc: "model-t@iab.org" 
To: Stephen Farrell 
References: <3b6e35a3-288b-0c95-f7c8-ddf56491102a@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Model-t] couple of slides and a couple of meetings
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> On 27 Jul 2020, at 17:31, Stephen Farrell  =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> First, apologies for my total lack of activity on this
> topic in the last while. I can only offer the usual
> "busy elsewhere" excuse, sorry. Anyway, I should have
> time again for this in the next while, so will try to
> help move the discussion along some...
>=20
> I'll start a doodle poll for a virtual meeting some
> time in Aug/early-Sep and we can see what works. Will
> send a bunch of possible dates in a while.

Thanks for this. The sooner the better of course! I am always happy to =
volunteer to help out too. FWIW.

>=20
> Meanwhile, Jari suggested that if people happen to be
> free this week, we can try for an informal chat on
> Thursday 30th at 1610 UTC. I realise that's awful for
> TZ reasons for some people and we're suggesting that
> with no notice at all, but it's really just an effort
> to have a chat with whomever's about so let's give it
> a shot and see if it's useful. I'll setup a webex thing
> for that time and send details to the list tomorrow.
>=20
> There's also an IAB open meeting tomorrow where we'll put
> up a couple of slides about model-t. Those are attached.
> If I've missed out on anyone's draft please ping me and
> I'll fix that.

Just a quick update to the slides - I have a second draft which is =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t/ =
 =
that needs to be added as well. Thanks!

>=20
> Cheers and sorry again for all the inactivity,
> Stephen.

Looking forward to the meetings,

Dominique
>=20
> <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>--=20
> Model-t mailing list
> Model-t@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t


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On 27 Jul 2020, at 17:31, Stephen Farrell =
<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


Hi all,

First, apologies for my =
total lack of activity on this
topic in the last while. I =
can only offer the usual
"busy elsewhere" excuse, sorry. =
Anyway, I should have
time again for this in the next =
while, so will try to
help move the discussion along =
some...

I'll start a doodle poll for a =
virtual meeting some
time in Aug/early-Sep and we can see =
what works. Will
send a bunch of possible dates in a =
while.

Thanks for =
this. The sooner the better of course! I am always happy to volunteer to =
help out too. FWIW.


Meanwhile, =
Jari suggested that if people happen to be
free this week, =
we can try for an informal chat on
Thursday 30th at 1610 =
UTC. I realise that's awful for
TZ reasons for some people =
and we're suggesting that
with no notice at all, but it's =
really just an effort
to have a chat with whomever's about =
so let's give it
a shot and see if it's useful. I'll setup =
a webex thing
for that time and send details to the list =
tomorrow.

There's also an IAB open meeting =
tomorrow where we'll put
up a couple of slides about =
model-t. Those are attached.
If I've missed out on =
anyone's draft please ping me and
I'll fix that.

Just =
a quick update to the slides - I have a second draft which is https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lazanski-users-threat-mo=
del-t/ that needs to be added as well. Thanks!


Cheers and sorry again for all the =
inactivity,
Stephen.

Looking =
forward to the meetings,

Dominique

<model-t-108.pdf&g=
t;<0x5AB2FAF17B172BE=
A.asc>-- 
Model-t mailing list
Model-t@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t

=

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Added that thanks.

S.


On 28/07/2020 10:36, Dominique Lazanski wrote:
> Just a quick update to the slides - I have a second draft which is
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lazanski-users-threat-model-t/
> =

> that needs to be added as well. Thanks!

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-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------0189DEDDD1E6EEC2118CE54A--

--r27lNIXinOc7DidxEYjthfWElA1Z9tr6E--

--Vg55ZSmhYpcwGyigoASuR159xagEAEJWR
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:23:36 +0100
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Subject: [Model-t] poll for interim meeting in Aug/Sep
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From: Stephen Farrell 
To: "model-t@iab.org" 
Message-ID: 
Subject: poll for interim meeting in Aug/Sep

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Hiya,

As per yesterday's mail I've created a poll [1] to see
if we can find a time to chat in the coming weeks. All
times in the poll are in UTC.

I've tried to pick time slots that are more friendly to
people from Asia/Australisia this time, as the ones we
used before were quite Europe/NA friendly.

Please try fill in the poll this next week if you can.
I'll look at it Friday and see where we are. (But hey,
why not just do it now? :-)

Cheers,
S.

[1] https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/model-t-not-in-madrid/



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From nobody Thu Jul 30 01:52:38 2020
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From: Jari Arkko 
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Cc: Stephen Farrell , "model-t@iab.org" 
To: Benjamin Kaduk 
References: <3b6e35a3-288b-0c95-f7c8-ddf56491102a@cs.tcd.ie> <20200727164039.GB41010@kduck.mit.edu>
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> We also have an item on the SAAG agenda on Thursday that could
> evolve into model-t-related topics.  IIRC, no one has sent
> any materials in (yet) for that, though.

I will have a two slider on that for you soon. There=E2=80=99s one slide =
to discuss the history of discussions in model-t, and one to talk about =
possible changes to BCP 72.

Jari


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We also have an item on the SAAG =
agenda on Thursday that could
evolve into model-t-related =
topics.  IIRC, no one has sent
any materials in (yet) for that, =
though.

I =
will have a two slider on that for you soon. There=E2=80=99s one slide =
to discuss the history of discussions in model-t, and one to talk about =
possible changes to BCP 72.

Jari

=

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From nobody Thu Jul 30 04:12:11 2020
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From: Jari Arkko 
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Some suggested slides. Thoughts?

Jari


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From: Dominique Lazanski 
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Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:02:34 +0100
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Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , Stephen Farrell , "model-t@iab.org" 
To: Jari Arkko 
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Subject: Re: [Model-t] couple of slides and a couple of meetings
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Hello!

Two quick comments - you are missing an =E2=80=98of=E2=80=99 here:

"It is, however, possible to design protocols which minimize the extent =
of the damage done when the other parties in a protocol become =
compromised or do not act in the best interests OF the end-system =
implementing a protocol.=E2=80=9D

Also are you going to mention the way forward for the collection of =
drafts mentioned as well?

Thanks,
Dominique


> On 30 Jul 2020, at 12:12, Jari Arkko  wrote:
>=20
> Some suggested slides. Thoughts?
>=20
> Jari
>=20
> --=20
> Model-t mailing list
> Model-t@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t


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Hello!

Two quick =
comments - you are missing an =E2=80=98of=E2=80=99 =
here:

"It is, =
however, possible to design protocols which minimize the extent of the =
damage done when the other parties in a protocol become compromised or =
do not act in the best interests OF =
the end-system implementing a protocol.=E2=80=9D

Also are you going to mention =
the way forward for the collection of drafts mentioned as =
well?

Thanks,
Dominique


On 30 Jul 2020, at 12:12, Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> wrote:

Some =
suggested slides. Thoughts?

Jari

<ietf108_saag_bcp7=
2_changes.pdf>-- 
Model-t mailing list
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https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t

=

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From: Jari Arkko 
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To: Martin Thomson 
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Thanks for writing this, Martin.

I largely agree with was written, however, I do have a number of =
suggestions.

First off, the draft uses some examples from low-in-the-stack =
intermediaries, many of which aren=E2=80=99t as relevant today as they =
were earlier. It would be interesting to consider email services (that =
don=E2=80=99t support good e2e keying, and at the same time benefit from =
the analysis of the emails for commercial surveillance), DNS resolvers, =
and other similar cases with more current relevance.

I think Section 2 and the definition of intermediation needs work. Where =
do we draw the line between functions pass communications from A to B, =
vs. functions that are used in some form in the communications between A =
and B? Lets say a translation or discovery service. In either case =
function may learn things that are private to the communicating parties, =
it may impact the ability of the communicating parties extend whatever =
they are doing with new functionality, and so on. Are these =
intermediaries in the sense of the draft, or not? And why?

Thirdly, I think there=E2=80=99s an issue in the following:

   Many problems caused by intermediation are the result of
   intermediaries that are introduced without the involvement of
   protocol endpoints.

This conflates the role of protocol endpoint and the role of users, =
equipment owners, etc. A lot of today=E2=80=99s problems are caused by =
issues where some piece of service or software or equipment does =
something that isn=E2=80=99t aligned with my interests as the user. For =
instance, just because the video camera device is an endpoint and =
willingly sends a stream to the police doesn=E2=80=99t meant that it=E2=80=
=99s ok from the user=E2=80=99s perspective. There=E2=80=99s obviously =
an additional potential misalignment between different endpoints, and =
applications vs. middlemen, but we shouldn=E2=80=99t lose sight of the =
alignment of the between the user and what ever goes in the =
app/network/service.

Jari


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Message-ID: <2820b1d7-e4f4-4cfa-f97b-5b7d70b6f453@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 14:41:57 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Model-t] poll for interim meeting in Aug/Sep
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From: Stephen Farrell 
To: "model-t@iab.org" 
Message-ID: <2820b1d7-e4f4-4cfa-f97b-5b7d70b6f453@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: poll for interim meeting in Aug/Sep
References: 
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Hi all,

So far Thu 20th, 2100 UTC is winning in the poll,
but only by one so if you haven't please add your
availability. Let's pick the winner Monday,

Cheers,
S.

On 28/07/2020 13:23, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>=20
> Hiya,
>=20
> As per yesterday's mail I've created a poll [1] to see
> if we can find a time to chat in the coming weeks. All
> times in the poll are in UTC.
>=20
> I've tried to pick time slots that are more friendly to
> people from Asia/Australisia this time, as the ones we
> used before were quite Europe/NA friendly.
>=20
> Please try fill in the poll this next week if you can.
> I'll look at it Friday and see where we are. (But hey,
> why not just do it now? :-)
>=20
> Cheers,
> S.
>=20
> [1] https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/model-t-not-in-madrid/
>=20
>=20
>=20

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Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
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