From nobody Tue Mar 1 00:15:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C6A1B2D0B for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:15:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ySTdw6XCPpWW for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch (smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch [128.65.195.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8049F1B2CFD for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4.infomaniak.ch (smtp4.infomaniak.ch [84.16.68.92]) by smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u218Ex8g001602 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:15:00 +0100 Received: from RHillNew (adsl-178-39-181-33.adslplus.ch [178.39.181.33]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp4.infomaniak.ch (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u218EwYW027559; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:14:58 +0100 From: "Richard Hill" To: "'Henning Schulzrinne'" , "'Richard Shockey'" , "'Paul Kyzivat'" , "'Modern List'" References: <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> <68346e41454447f1b75d61da4c51821b@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <3af9e40382f34867bd866707fc4b1ce9@PLSWE13M01.ad.sprint.com> <0dd72becae6d4d9b8ea4bccc4d9f9602@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56CF87AE.6070801@alum.mit.edu>, In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:14:58 +0100 Message-ID: <003301d17392$72bec760$583c5620$@ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AQHRb2pm7PDoPWgGMEWIEhdbfE2ttZ88e5hwgABbCQCAAAB2AIAAA5cAgAAUeeCAAAWi8P//30YAgAAzgrCAAFplAIABOrGAgAT96JCAAKo0sA== Content-Language: en-us X-Antivirus: Dr.Web (R) for Unix mail servers drweb plugin ver.6.0.2.8 X-Antivirus-Code: 0x100000 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 08:15:11 -0000 Inline. > -----Original Message----- > From: Modern [mailto:modern-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning > Schulzrinne > Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 23:14 > To: Richard Shockey; Paul Kyzivat; 'Modern List' > Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case > Draft > SNIP > > I'm not sure why you consider the effort "US centric". As far as I can tell, all of the discussion on this list has related to issues that are, at least at present, specific to the US. >I suspect almost > all countries will be faced with the IP transition Probably, but the timing is different, and the specific ways in which the transition will occur may also be different. For example, the transition is currently taking place in Switzerland but, as far as I know, the issues raised on this list have not been raised in Switzlerland. >and, in particular, > with upgrading the existing number portability system, That may or may not be necessary. >if they have > one, or creating one. The current number portability (whether or not > it's geographic) leaves much to be desired, as recent events > (https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-plans-296-million-fine-slamming- > cramming-and-obstruction-0 makes a good read) illustrate. Have similar issues arisen elsewhere? >Thus, maybe you can help point out the > specific features that would need to be supported to implement a > version of today's policies, possibly with more formal down-delegation > to facilitate tracking, and possibly multiple "registrars", as exists > today in the 800# space. (As you know, today we often don't have a good > idea of who is actually using a number, given informal "delegation" and > reselling-that-doesn't-dare-call-itself-that.) I agree with that. And, as far as I know, that is an issue that occurs elsewhere around the world. From nobody Tue Mar 1 00:16:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CEEA1B2D0F for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:16:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3J72jbrdQFfH for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-sh2.infomaniak.ch (smtp-sh2.infomaniak.ch [128.65.195.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89CC51B2D0B for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.infomaniak.ch (smtp3.infomaniak.ch [84.16.68.91]) by smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u218GGDf007522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:16:16 +0100 Received: from RHillNew (adsl-178-39-181-33.adslplus.ch [178.39.181.33]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp3.infomaniak.ch (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u218GFnv028443; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:16:16 +0100 From: "Richard Hill" To: "'Henning Schulzrinne'" , "'McGarry, Tom'" , "'Modern List'" References: <00ce01d16fae$7b74f470$725edd50$@ch> , <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:16:15 +0100 Message-ID: <003601d17392$a09fc620$e1df5260$@ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01D1739B.02642E20" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AQHRb2pm7PDoPWgGMEWIEhdbfE2ttZ88e5hwgABbCQCAAAB2AIAG2N/NgACWTpA= Content-Language: en-us X-Antivirus: Dr.Web (R) for Unix mail servers drweb plugin ver.6.0.2.8 X-Antivirus-Code: 0x100000 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 08:16:24 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01D1739B.02642E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What Henning says below makes sense to me. Best, Richard From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov] Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 00:31 To: Richard Hill; 'McGarry, Tom'; 'Modern List' Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft My understanding (and the use cases draft may need clarity on that) is that the two facets are largely independent. In other words, you should be able to run a TDM network with step switches and allocate numbers via an IP-based process, even if you may have to use a dial-up modem to get your IP packets. (As far as I know, the current US-specific number management and porting process is based, in part, on Internet protocols, just a bit on the dated side.) I think suggestions on removing US-specific language are useful. As discussed in this thread, I do see six broad challenges that apply, in combinations in many jurisdictions: (1) IP transition (2) porting (either newly-introduced or with new capabilities, e.g., between different modes or geographies), possibly with mechanisms other than voice-based validation of porting intent (3) automation for multiple levels of delegation, whether for PBX or some IOT applications (4) accountability of both holdership and "meta" data (CNAM) (5) improved number utilization, with more "just-in-time" processes (6) more flexibility in the number and structure of registrars/registries (including, for small countries, outsourcing to third parties rather than creating technology specific to Liechtenstein) My sense is that the US is facing more of these challenges than many countries at this point, but they don't seem US-specific. This is not new - TV whitespaces and emergency caller location for wireless were initially largely US problems, too. Henning _____ From: Modern on behalf of Richard Hill Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 9:44 AM To: 'McGarry, Tom'; 'Modern List' Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Yes, but such a green field space can, and has been, implemented on the PSTN, so the use of an all IP solution is not a requirement. Whereas your draft implies that it is, unless I misunderstood something. Best, Richard ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01D1739B.02642E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What Henning says below makes sense to = me.

Best,

Richard

 

From:= = Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov] =
Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 00:31
To: Richard = Hill; 'McGarry, Tom'; 'Modern List'
Subject: Re: [Modern] = Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft

 

My = understanding (and the use cases draft may need clarity on that) is that = the two facets are largely independent. In other words, you should be = able to run a TDM network with step switches and allocate numbers via an = IP-based process, even if you may have to use a dial-up modem to get = your IP packets. (As far as I know, the current US-specific number = management and porting process is based, in part, on Internet = protocols, just a bit on the dated side.)

 

I think = suggestions on removing US-specific language are useful. As discussed in = this thread, I do see six broad challenges that apply, in combinations = in many jurisdictions:

 

(1) IP = transition

(2) porting = (either newly-introduced or with new capabilities, e.g., between = different modes or geographies), possibly with mechanisms other than = voice-based validation of porting intent

(3) automation = for multiple levels of delegation, whether for PBX or some IOT = applications

(4) = accountability of both holdership and "meta" data = (CNAM)

(5) improved = number utilization, with more "just-in-time" = processes

(6) more = flexibility in the number and structure of registrars/registries = (including, for small countries, outsourcing to third parties rather = than creating technology specific to = Liechtenstein)

 

My sense is = that the US is facing more of these challenges than many countries at = this point, but they don't seem US-specific. This is not new - TV = whitespaces and emergency caller location for wireless were initially = largely US problems, too.

 

Henning

From: Modern <modern-bounces@ietf.org> = on behalf of Richard Hill <rhill@hill-a.ch>
Sent: = Thursday, February 25, 2016 9:44 AM
To: 'McGarry, Tom'; = 'Modern List'
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number = Portability MODERN Use Case Draft =

 

Yes, but such a green field space can, and has been, implemented on = the PSTN, so the use of an all IP solution is  not a requirement. =  Whereas your draft implies that it is, unless I misunderstood = something.

 

Best,

Richard

 

------=_NextPart_000_0037_01D1739B.02642E20-- From nobody Tue Mar 1 00:20:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F98F1B354C for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:20:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Zgq6TuNMhO2 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch (smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch [128.65.195.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B8B11B354A for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4.infomaniak.ch (smtp4.infomaniak.ch [84.16.68.92]) by smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u218KYsF022887 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:20:35 +0100 Received: from RHillNew (adsl-178-39-181-33.adslplus.ch [178.39.181.33]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp4.infomaniak.ch (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u218KXn8023152; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:20:34 +0100 From: "Richard Hill" To: "'Richard Shockey'" , "'Henning Schulzrinne'" , "'Paul Kyzivat'" , "'Modern List'" References: <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> <68346e41454447f1b75d61da4c51821b@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <3af9e40382f34867bd866707fc4b1ce9@PLSWE13M01.ad.sprint.com> <0dd72becae6d4d9b8ea4bccc4d9f9602@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56CF87AE.6070801@alum.mit.edu> <4EE72534-1CF1-46B1-82DB-7BE9DA260543@shockey.us> In-Reply-To: <4EE72534-1CF1-46B1-82DB-7BE9DA260543@shockey.us> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:20:33 +0100 Message-ID: <005201d17393$3a8dbfd0$afa93f70$@ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdFzTF3ehleg5/dlSOGbDbbU+PuKawARmu+w Content-Language: en-us X-Antivirus: Dr.Web (R) for Unix mail servers drweb plugin ver.6.0.2.8 X-Antivirus-Code: 0x100000 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 08:20:46 -0000 Inline. > -----Original Message----- > From: Modern [mailto:modern-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Shockey > Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 00:33 > To: Henning Schulzrinne; Paul Kyzivat; 'Modern List' > Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case > Draft >=20 SNIP >=20 >I still have > problems undertaking work where the actual user community has not > weighed in on requirements. I=E2=80=99d feel a lot better if there was = some > input from BEREC for instance. >=20 > http://berec.europa.eu/ As I said before, if the intent is to develop something that is not = targeted only at the USA, then it would be worth trying to broaden the = source of inputs. Consulting BEREC would indeed make sense, but I would = enlarge to include the GSMA and ITU-T Study Group 2. From nobody Tue Mar 1 00:24:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7E31B356D for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:24:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SjDqRe93jpk7 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-sh2.infomaniak.ch (smtp-sh2.infomaniak.ch [128.65.195.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F40E21B356B for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.infomaniak.ch (smtp3.infomaniak.ch [84.16.68.91]) by smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u218OYrN005344 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:24:34 +0100 Received: from RHillNew (adsl-178-39-181-33.adslplus.ch [178.39.181.33]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp3.infomaniak.ch (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u218OXjp030499; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:24:33 +0100 From: "Richard Hill" To: "'Henning Schulzrinne'" , "'DOLLY, MARTIN C'" References: <00ce01d16fae$7b74f470$725edd50$@ch> , <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch>, , <599713FB-6141-49A5-99DC-8A927A81C81A@att.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:24:33 +0100 Message-ID: <006101d17393$c947d5d0$5bd78170$@ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0062_01D1739C.2B0C3DD0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AQHRb2pm7PDoPWgGMEWIEhdbfE2ttZ88e5hwgABbCQCAAAB2AIAG2N/NgAAFsQCAAAEFoIAAkQmw Content-Language: en-us X-Antivirus: Dr.Web (R) for Unix mail servers drweb plugin ver.6.0.2.8 X-Antivirus-Code: 0x100000 Archived-At: Cc: 'Modern List' , "'McGarry, Tom'" Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 08:24:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01D1739C.2B0C3DD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is also another scenario, which is actually implemented, and might become more widespread. The ITU assigns directly to an operator (or consortium of operators), the operators assigns to its customers, etc. That happens for numbers starting with +882 and +883. It seems to be of interest for IOT because it removes the geographical association in the number. And it seems to me that, in the IOT scenario, what Henning says below makes a great deal of sense. Best, Richard From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov] Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 00:54 To: DOLLY, MARTIN C Cc: Richard Hill; McGarry, Tom; Modern List Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft NRA delegates to registry (LNP, NANPA, etc.); registry delegates to carrier; carrier loans/assigns/delegates (whatever the legal arrangement is; substitute your favorite term) to some value-added service provider; VASP assigns to GM and GM assigns number to car. This is the IOT case. Or GM assigns numbers from its "supply" to factory in Kokomo, IN; Delco plant assigns to PBX extensions. All of this should happen without having to employ a number manager to log into a web site, submit a file via ftp or send a fax. Does that make sense? Henning _____ From: DOLLY, MARTIN C Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 6:38 PM To: Henning Schulzrinne Cc: Richard Hill; McGarry, Tom; Modern List Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Henning Please expand on (3) Thank you Martin C Dolly Lead Member of Technical Staff Core & Government/Regulatory Standards AT&T Cell: 609-903-3360 Email: md3135@att.com On Feb 29, 2016, at 6:30 PM, Henning Schulzrinne wrote: My understanding (and the use cases draft may need clarity on that) is that the two facets are largely independent. In other words, you should be able to run a TDM network with step switches and allocate numbers via an IP-based process, even if you may have to use a dial-up modem to get your IP packets. (As far as I know, the current US-specific number management and porting process is based, in part, on Internet protocols, just a bit on the dated side.) I think suggestions on removing US-specific language are useful. As discussed in this thread, I do see six broad challenges that apply, in combinations in many jurisdictions: (1) IP transition (2) porting (either newly-introduced or with new capabilities, e.g., between different modes or geographies), possibly with mechanisms other than voice-based validation of porting intent (3) automation for multiple levels of delegation, whether for PBX or some IOT applications (4) accountability of both holdership and "meta" data (CNAM) (5) improved number utilization, with more "just-in-time" processes (6) more flexibility in the number and structure of registrars/registries (including, for small countries, outsourcing to third parties rather than creating technology specific to Liechtenstein) My sense is that the US is facing more of these challenges than many countries at this point, but they don't seem US-specific. This is not new - TV whitespaces and emergency caller location for wireless were initially largely US problems, too. Henning _____ From: Modern on behalf of Richard Hill Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 9:44 AM To: 'McGarry, Tom'; 'Modern List' Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Yes, but such a green field space can, and has been, implemented on the PSTN, so the use of an all IP solution is not a requirement. Whereas your draft implies that it is, unless I misunderstood something. Best, Richard _______________________________________________ Modern mailing list Modern@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/modern ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01D1739C.2B0C3DD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There is also another scenario, which is actually implemented, and = might become more widespread. The ITU assigns directly to an operator = (or consortium of operators), the operators assigns to its customers, = etc.  That happens for numbers starting with +882 and +883. It = seems to be of interest for IOT because it removes the geographical = association in the number.

 

And it seems to me that, in the IOT scenario, what Henning says below = makes a great deal of sense.

 

Best,

Richard

 

From:= = Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov] =
Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 00:54
To: DOLLY, = MARTIN C
Cc: Richard Hill; McGarry, Tom; Modern = List
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability = MODERN Use Case Draft

 

NRA delegates = to registry (LNP, NANPA, etc.); registry delegates to carrier; = carrier loans/assigns/delegates (whatever the legal arrangement is; = substitute your favorite term) to some value-added service provider; = VASP assigns to GM and GM assigns number to car. This is the = IOT case.

 

Or GM =  assigns numbers from its "supply" to factory in = Kokomo, IN; Delco plant assigns to PBX = extensions.

 

All of this = should happen without having to employ a number manager to log into = a web site, submit a file via ftp or send a = fax.

 

Does that make = sense?

 

Henning

From: DOLLY, MARTIN C <md3135@att.com>
Sent: = Monday, February 29, 2016 6:38 PM
To: Henning = Schulzrinne
Cc: Richard Hill; McGarry, Tom; Modern = List
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability = MODERN Use Case Draft =

 

Henning

 

Please expand = on (3)

 

Thank = you

Martin C Dolly

Lead Member of = Technical Staff

Core & = Government/Regulatory Standards 

AT&T

Cell: = 609-903-3360


On Feb 29, = 2016, at 6:30 PM, Henning Schulzrinne <Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov> wrote:

My = understanding (and the use cases draft may need clarity on that) is that = the two facets are largely independent. In other words, you should be = able to run a TDM network with step switches and allocate numbers via an = IP-based process, even if you may have to use a dial-up modem to get = your IP packets. (As far as I know, the current US-specific number = management and porting process is based, in part, on Internet = protocols, just a bit on the dated side.)

 

I think = suggestions on removing US-specific language are useful. As discussed in = this thread, I do see six broad challenges that apply, in combinations = in many jurisdictions:

 

(1) IP = transition

(2) porting = (either newly-introduced or with new capabilities, e.g., between = different modes or geographies), possibly with mechanisms other than = voice-based validation of porting intent

(3) automation = for multiple levels of delegation, whether for PBX or some IOT = applications

(4) = accountability of both holdership and "meta" data = (CNAM)

(5) improved = number utilization, with more "just-in-time" = processes

(6) more = flexibility in the number and structure of registrars/registries = (including, for small countries, outsourcing to third parties rather = than creating technology specific to = Liechtenstein)

Henning

From: Modern <modern-bounces@ietf.org> = on behalf of Richard Hill <rhill@hill-a.ch>
Sent: = Thursday, February 25, 2016 9:44 AM
To: 'McGarry, Tom'; = 'Modern List'
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number = Portability MODERN Use Case Draft =

 

Yes, but such a green field space can, and has been, implemented on = the PSTN, so the use of an all IP solution is  not a requirement. =  Whereas your draft implies that it is, unless I misunderstood = something.

 

Best,

Richard

 

________________= _______________________________
Modern mailing list
Modern@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/modern

------=_NextPart_000_0062_01D1739C.2B0C3DD0-- From nobody Tue Mar 1 07:32:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A491B2D5D for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 07:32:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DiRTEol1VRKO for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 07:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from qproxy2.mail.unifiedlayer.com (qproxy2-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.16.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C92BA1B2D5C for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 07:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10067 invoked by uid 0); 1 Mar 2016 15:31:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw3) (10.0.90.84) by qproxy2.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2016 15:31:59 -0000 Received: from box462.bluehost.com ([74.220.219.62]) by cmgw3 with id QmBr1s00n1MNPNq01mBu1o; Tue, 01 Mar 2016 15:11:57 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=GOWbTI9K c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jTEj1adHphCQ5SwrTAOQMg==:117 a=jTEj1adHphCQ5SwrTAOQMg==:17 a=L9H7d07YOLsA:10 a=9cW_t1CCXrUA:10 a=s5jvgZ67dGcA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=8WrITzYgnNwA:10 a=p-_XEfp0GhYA:10 a=7OsogOcEt9IA:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=JL-7mqT1AAAA:8 a=k_tLPb9Yinwr6tOsR6wA:9 a=U-kp378RjyacFrRN:21 a=b-WwJ3rG_DS4o8Vj:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=-FEs8UIgK8oA:10 a=NWVoK91CQyQA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shockey.us; s=default; h=Content-transfer-encoding:Content-type:Mime-version:In-Reply-To:References:Message-ID:To:From:Subject:Date; bh=6yoF8CBPqavYxlQ7XfUFLnV8omSHHkqSEQDx3XRJEGE=; b=d24G3uSFf4sL1rB9SeLRPEJCsDMfu6IAVVAVpbzOhrMzywEoFlSp7ckzLcus73i7RDI8+yI3pOIvTvYy8E++GJuTZFHAhwIUherKS5CP+J9l6MeiSNhr6k+qR2hV7BdF; Received: from [100.36.35.60] (port=49978 helo=[192.168.1.9]) by box462.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aalxq-00022q-54; Tue, 01 Mar 2016 08:11:54 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.160212 Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 10:11:46 -0500 From: Richard Shockey To: Richard Hill , 'Henning Schulzrinne' , 'Paul Kyzivat' , 'Modern List' Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft References: <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> <68346e41454447f1b75d61da4c51821b@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <3af9e40382f34867bd866707fc4b1ce9@PLSWE13M01.ad.sprint.com> <0dd72becae6d4d9b8ea4bccc4d9f9602@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56CF87AE.6070801@alum.mit.edu> <4EE72534-1CF1-46B1-82DB-7BE9DA260543@shockey.us> <005201d17393$3a8dbfd0$afa93f70$@ch> In-Reply-To: <005201d17393$3a8dbfd0$afa93f70$@ch> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Identified-User: {3286:box462.bluehost.com:shockeyu:shockey.us} {sentby:smtp auth 100.36.35.60 authed with richard+shockey.us} Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 15:32:04 -0000 Richard, I will grant one thing Henning mentions. =20 A lot of the problems look US centric because the problems have started her= e first. I can=E2=80=99t recall if the US was the first country to deploy LNP but= it was certainly the largest at the time. I do know the cost factors we enc= ountered in the US scared the daylights out of European NRA's. Its obviousl= y much easier now. I could run the NPAC on my iPhone rather efficiently. IP interconnection for voice in the US is without question much more advanc= ed and further along than anything I=E2=80=99ve looked at in the EU or Asia-Pac. M= y guess is nearly 40% now and with the VoLTE roll outs it will be about 80% = and then the real whining about the PSTN Transition endgame begins. By all a= ccounts Canada is about 24 months behind us but the Cable Operators have beg= un the process with Bell and the others moving along rather quickly. They ar= e having the same problems with all that lovely ..(cough) Nortel gear.=20 On 3/1/16, 3:20 AM, "Modern on behalf of Richard Hill" wrote: >Inline. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Modern [mailto:modern-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richard >> Shockey >> Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 00:33 >> To: Henning Schulzrinne; Paul Kyzivat; 'Modern List' >> Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case >> Draft >>=20 > >SNIP > >>=20 >>I still have >> problems undertaking work where the actual user community has not >> weighed in on requirements. I=E2=80=99d feel a lot better if there was some >> input from BEREC for instance. >>=20 >> http://berec.europa.eu/ > >As I said before, if the intent is to develop something that is not target= ed only at the USA, then it would be worth trying to broaden the source of i= nputs. Consulting BEREC would indeed make sense, but I would enlarge to inc= lude the GSMA and ITU-T Study Group 2. > > >_______________________________________________ >Modern mailing list >Modern@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/modern From nobody Tue Mar 1 07:51:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FAB91B2D3A for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 07:51:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m3E7NVjX8fNR for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 07:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10CE61B2DDB for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 07:51:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049461.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049461.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u21FmXAV015103; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 10:51:09 -0500 Received: from alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp7.sbc.com [144.160.229.24]) by m0049461.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 21b6u74n8m-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 01 Mar 2016 10:51:08 -0500 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u21Fp6sw015674; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 10:51:08 -0500 Received: from mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com (mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com [130.9.128.239]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u21FouDs015467 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Mar 2016 10:51:04 -0500 Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.ITServices.sbc.com (MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.itservices.sbc.com [130.9.129.150]) by mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor); Tue, 1 Mar 2016 15:50:39 GMT Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRDB.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.2.77]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.150]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 10:50:38 -0500 From: "DOLLY, MARTIN C" To: Henning Schulzrinne Thread-Topic: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Thread-Index: AQHRb2pmKJfvS/A8SECUSroEFRvMu588e5hwgABbCQCAAAB2AIAG2N/NgAAFspyAAFg5AIAAtSIQ Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 15:50:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <00ce01d16fae$7b74f470$725edd50$@ch> , <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch>, , <599713FB-6141-49A5-99DC-8A927A81C81A@att.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.247.76] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E42CCDDA6722744CB241677169E8365615E60E69MISOUT7MSGUSRDB_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: NUMBER PORTABILITY, public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-03-01_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1601100000 definitions=main-1603010293 Archived-At: Cc: Richard Hill , Modern List , "McGarry, Tom" Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 15:51:17 -0000 --_000_E42CCDDA6722744CB241677169E8365615E60E69MISOUT7MSGUSRDB_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Henning, Where I agree we need to automate the process so that numbers flow down the= chain easily particularly for IoT, I also believe that the FCC will only d= irectly assign numbers to entities that the FCC can PUNISH. Regards, Martin From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov] Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 6:54 PM To: DOLLY, MARTIN C Cc: Richard Hill ; McGarry, Tom ;= Modern List Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft NRA delegates to registry (LNP, NANPA, etc.); registry delegates to carrier= ; carrier loans/assigns/delegates (whatever the legal arrangement is; subst= itute your favorite term) to some value-added service provider; VASP assign= s to GM and GM assigns number to car. This is the IOT case. Or GM assigns numbers from its "supply" to factory in Kokomo, IN; Delco pl= ant assigns to PBX extensions. All of this should happen without having to employ a number manager to log = into a web site, submit a file via ftp or send a fax. Does that make sense? Henning ________________________________ From: DOLLY, MARTIN C > Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 6:38 PM To: Henning Schulzrinne Cc: Richard Hill; McGarry, Tom; Modern List Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Henning Please expand on (3) Thank you Martin C Dolly Lead Member of Technical Staff Core & Government/Regulatory Standards AT&T Cell: 609-903-3360 Email: md3135@att.com On Feb 29, 2016, at 6:30 PM, Henning Schulzrinne > wrote: My understanding (and the use cases draft may need clarity on that) is that= the two facets are largely independent. In other words, you should be able= to run a TDM network with step switches and allocate numbers via an IP-bas= ed process, even if you may have to use a dial-up modem to get your IP pack= ets. (As far as I know, the current US-specific number management and porti= ng process is based, in part, on Internet protocols, just a bit on the date= d side.) I think suggestions on removing US-specific language are useful. As discuss= ed in this thread, I do see six broad challenges that apply, in combination= s in many jurisdictions: (1) IP transition (2) porting (either newly-introduced or with new capabilities, e.g., betwee= n different modes or geographies), possibly with mechanisms other than voic= e-based validation of porting intent (3) automation for multiple levels of delegation, whether for PBX or some I= OT applications (4) accountability of both holdership and "meta" data (CNAM) (5) improved number utilization, with more "just-in-time" processes (6) more flexibility in the number and structure of registrars/registries (= including, for small countries, outsourcing to third parties rather than cr= eating technology specific to Liechtenstein) My sense is that the US is facing more of these challenges than many countr= ies at this point, but they don't seem US-specific. This is not new - TV wh= itespaces and emergency caller location for wireless were initially largely= US problems, too. Henning ________________________________ From: Modern > on b= ehalf of Richard Hill > Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 9:44 AM To: 'McGarry, Tom'; 'Modern List' Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Yes, but such a green field space can, and has been, implemented on the PST= N, so the use of an all IP solution is not a requirement. Whereas your dr= aft implies that it is, unless I misunderstood something. Best, Richard _______________________________________________ Modern mailing list Modern@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/modern --_000_E42CCDDA6722744CB241677169E8365615E60E69MISOUT7MSGUSRDB_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Henning,

 

Where I agree we need to automate the= process so that numbers flow down the chain easily particularly for IoT, I= also believe that the FCC will only directly assign numbers to entities that the FCC can PUNISH.

 

Regards,

 

Martin

 

From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:He= nning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov]
Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 6:54 PM
To: DOLLY, MARTIN C <md3135@att.com>
Cc: Richard Hill <rhill@hill-a.ch>; McGarry, Tom <Tom.McGar= ry@neustar.biz>; Modern List <modern@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft

 

NRA delegates to registry (LNP, NANPA, etc.)= ; registry delegates to carrier; carrier loans/assigns/delegates (whatever = the legal arrangement is; substitute your favorite term) to some value-added service provider; VASP assigns to GM and GM=  assigns number to car. This is the IOT case.

 

Or GM  assigns numbers from its "s= upply" to factory in Kokomo, IN; Delco plant assigns to PBX extensions= .

 

All of this should happen without having to emplo= y a number manager to log into a web site, submit a file via ftp = or send a fax.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Henning<= o:p>

From: DOLLY, MARTIN C <= md3135@att.com>
Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 6:38 PM
To: Henning Schulzrinne
Cc: Richard Hill; McGarry, Tom; Modern List
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft

 

Henning

 

Please expand on (3)

 

Thank you

Martin C Dolly

Lead Member of Technical Staf= f

Core & Government/Regulat= ory Standards 

AT&T

Cell: 609-903-3360=


On Feb 29, 2016, at 6:30 PM, Henning Schulzrinne <Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov> wrote:

My understanding (and the use cases draft may nee= d clarity on that) is that the two facets are largely independent. In other= words, you should be able to run a TDM network with step switches and allocate numbers via an IP-based process, even if y= ou may have to use a dial-up modem to get your IP packets. (As far as I kno= w, the current US-specific number management and porting process is ba= sed, in part, on Internet protocols, just a bit on the dated side.)

 

I think suggestions on removing US-specific langu= age are useful. As discussed in this thread, I do see six broad challenges = that apply, in combinations in many jurisdictions:

 

(1) IP transition

(2) porting (either newly-introduced or with new = capabilities, e.g., between different modes or geographies), possibly with = mechanisms other than voice-based validation of porting intent

(3) automation for multiple levels of delegation,= whether for PBX or some IOT applications

(4) accountability of both holdership and "m= eta" data (CNAM)

(5) improved number utilization, with more "= just-in-time" processes

(6) more flexibility in the number and structure = of registrars/registries (including, for small countries, outsourcing to th= ird parties rather than creating technology specific to Liechtenstein)

 

My sense is that the US is fa= cing more of these challenges than many countries at this point, but they d= on't seem US-specific. This is not new - TV whitespaces and emergency caller location for wireless were initially largely US probl= ems, too.

 

Henning

From: Modern <= modern-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Richard Hill <rhill@hil= l-a.ch>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 9:44 AM
To: 'McGarry, Tom'; 'Modern List'
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft

 

Yes, but such a green field sp= ace can, and has been, implemented on the PSTN, so the use of an all IP sol= ution is  not a requirement.  Whereas your draft implies that it is, unless I misunderstood something.

 

Best,

Richard

 

_____________________________= __________________
Modern mailing list
Modern@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/modern

--_000_E42CCDDA6722744CB241677169E8365615E60E69MISOUT7MSGUSRDB_-- From nobody Tue Mar 1 08:08:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09AC91A8A4C for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:08:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9X5e2gP6Razr for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x234.google.com (mail-yw0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8850C1B2E0D for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x234.google.com with SMTP id h129so152466573ywb.1 for ; Tue, 01 Mar 2016 08:08:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=5MzdEbqdCaSKnN0g+29S81pkyidqaDnrctXuFkpHnq8=; b=q0GPFgs3r560rROCjJqTHtuo+ZvrjQdzi0S1B8+b5xpRGDE+WllrSFwwR23xrUMN4c Cxa7z3EqQWDOOpsJK1ly5e7PsjswKX3vz9hhyMqy8JOTcXCrKhQNbd0WjhjSj+34czyq iEbuFHijm19APCjBNI1dCSi4qIQ9RdmLQqbImlbkZfQsV2LTc9R8IYTrOTeDMSmfBzQh DjIpGqyhv/FK8o9CVMeYuebz4n4eSEK5bAR8yhhT1Zk9LiujdNYtGgW4vvfuKN9Yw5OM TFp025TqoLnoRJvg1nDCsz8EK2uRKt+4q4GaGPzPkgCfakK5U2ZYm1kw6U1sF3SX3nVW y2QA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=5MzdEbqdCaSKnN0g+29S81pkyidqaDnrctXuFkpHnq8=; b=OW1V5tiSuPIUQyo96KnTtOTNhhdplIxsSnckDz+zyfLc6sVlDk13toRR9y6ja492dD wymWWRpHW0TV/DoCSMdZWryDrnKvmrCR8E05RXcTLczpV0F4xZutKOAmRdwJa/yI7AG2 naMKPjXNnCtvDliHs2rB9/BseHViwjbxCbMHZuBzh30kL2SWElTMYd5b9o8y3EbwhNHF 1hXWGJouRLIAPc8tZxHDnJIDEzqZhuc2ntpAyrReD8N3BAgYVvwlvO2DPdcttcH5EajY nk1s6L2hk2MZunRK0yuNnZbUQV9GEi6dPQhLLZOngXgv5nV/uhyXFqu2z48zkdv/xdIK VR6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJ1yfTE0aaXCI+SyBFRD7O+0MGW8iuzBk+QXH4JO8gOv6T1utFPJisxHEvlbmGqvQcXSYrwGE8Z6wskdw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.129.42.85 with SMTP id q82mr13914856ywq.265.1456848486676; Tue, 01 Mar 2016 08:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.105.196 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:08:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 10:08:06 -0600 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: "McGarry, Tom" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114229528a40da052cfef8f8 Archived-At: Cc: Modern List Subject: Re: [Modern] MODERN Interim Meeting Agenda and Webex X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 16:08:10 -0000 --001a114229528a40da052cfef8f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Again, I would confirmation as I've had a conflict arise and as others, like Eric have noted, they are not able to attend live, so a recording is most helpful. Thanks, Mary. On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 4:42 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: > Are there plans to record the Webex? I'm assuming so, but just wanted to > double check. > > Regards, > Mary. > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:14 AM, McGarry, Tom > wrote: > >> Draft agenda: >> >> - Agenda bashing/Call for note taker =E2=80=93 5 minutes >> - draft-peterson-modern-problems-03 =E2=80=93 Jon Peterson, 25 minute= s >> - MODERN Experiment =E2=80=93 Henning Schulzrinne, 40 minutes >> - Nationwide Number Portability : A MODERN Use Case =E2=80=93 Tom McG= arry, 40 >> minutes >> - Discussion =E2=80=93 10 minutes >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *MODERN Working Group Interim Meeting* >> Tuesday, March 1, 2016 >> 11:00 am | Eastern Standard Time (New York, GMT-05:00) | 2 hrs >> >> *Join WebEx meeting* >> >> Meeting number: 640 492 516 >> Meeting password: 12345 >> >> *Join by phone* >> *1-877-668-4493 <1-877-668-4493>* Call-in toll free number (US/Canada) >> *1-650-479-3208 <1-650-479-3208>* Call-in toll number (US/Canada) >> Access code: 640 492 516 >> Toll-free calling restrictions >> >> >> Add this meeting >> to >> your calendar. (Cannot add from mobile devices.) >> >> Can't join the meeting? Contact support. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Modern mailing list >> Modern@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/modern >> >> > --001a114229528a40da052cfef8f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Again, I would confirmation as I've had a conflict ari= se and as others, like Eric have noted, they are not able to attend live, s= o a recording is most helpful.=C2=A0

Thanks,
M= ary.

O= n Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 4:42 PM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@g= mail.com> wrote:
Are there plans to record the Webex?=C2=A0 I'm assuming so, bu= t just wanted to double check.

Regards,
Mary.= =C2=A0

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:14 AM, McGarry, Tom <Tom.McGarry@neustar.biz> wrote:
Draft agenda:
  • Agenda bashing/Call for note taker =E2=80=93 5 minutes
  • draft-pe= terson-modern-problems-03 =E2=80=93 Jon Peterson, 25 minutes
  • MODERN= Experiment =E2=80=93 Henning Schulzrinne, 40 minutes
  • Nationwide Nu= mber Portability : A MODERN Use Case =E2=80=93 Tom McGarry, 40 minutes
    • =
  • Discussion =E2=80=93 10 minutes





MODERN Working Group Interim Meeting
Tuesday, March 1, 2016
11:00 am=C2=A0=C2=A0|=C2=A0=C2=A0Eastern Standard Time (New York, GMT-05:00= )=C2=A0=C2=A0|=C2=A0=C2=A02 hrs
=C2=A0
Join WebEx meeting
Meeting number: 640 492 516
Meeting password: 12345
=C2=A0
Join by phone
= 1-877-668-4493=C2=A0Call-in toll free number (US/Canada)
= 1-650-479-3208=C2=A0Call-in toll number (US/Canada)
Access code:=C2=A0640 492 516
Toll-free calling restrictions
=C2=A0
Add this meeting=C2=A0to your calendar. (Cannot add from mobile devices.)<= /td>
=C2=A0
Can't join the meeting?=C2=A0Contact support.
=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
Modern mailing list
Modern@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/modern



--001a114229528a40da052cfef8f8-- From nobody Tue Mar 1 08:19:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 042B71B2E41 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:19:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aMVIneLWLT8X for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 440FF1B2E33 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.10] (cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id u21GJ4m7080551 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Mar 2016 10:19:05 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4] claimed to be [10.0.1.10] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Mary Barnes" Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 10:19:07 -0600 Message-ID: <4097E486-FE79-4904-9896-CCE2BA81777B@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5226) Archived-At: Cc: Modern List , "McGarry, Tom" Subject: Re: [Modern] MODERN Interim Meeting Agenda and Webex X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 16:19:13 -0000 The meeting is being recorded. Ben. On 1 Mar 2016, at 10:08, Mary Barnes wrote: > Again, I would confirmation as I've had a conflict arise and as = > others, > like Eric have noted, they are not able to attend live, so a recording = > is > most helpful. > > Thanks, > Mary. > > On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 4:42 PM, Mary Barnes = > > wrote: > >> Are there plans to record the Webex? I'm assuming so, but just = >> wanted to >> double check. >> >> Regards, >> Mary. >> >> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:14 AM, McGarry, Tom = >> >> wrote: >> >>> Draft agenda: >>> >>> - Agenda bashing/Call for note taker =E2=80=93 5 minutes >>> - draft-peterson-modern-problems-03 =E2=80=93 Jon Peterson, 25 min= utes >>> - MODERN Experiment =E2=80=93 Henning Schulzrinne, 40 minutes >>> - Nationwide Number Portability : A MODERN Use Case =E2=80=93 Tom = >>> McGarry, 40 >>> minutes >>> - Discussion =E2=80=93 10 minutes >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *MODERN Working Group Interim Meeting* >>> Tuesday, March 1, 2016 >>> 11:00 am | Eastern Standard Time (New York, GMT-05:00) | 2 hrs >>> >>> *Join WebEx meeting* >>> >>> Meeting number: 640 492 516 >>> Meeting password: 12345 >>> >>> *Join by phone* >>> *1-877-668-4493 <1-877-668-4493>* Call-in toll free number = >>> (US/Canada) >>> *1-650-479-3208 <1-650-479-3208>* Call-in toll number (US/Canada) >>> Access code: 640 492 516 >>> Toll-free calling restrictions >>> >>> >>> Add this meeting >>> = >>> to >>> your calendar. (Cannot add from mobile devices.) >>> >>> Can't join the meeting? Contact support. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Modern mailing list >>> Modern@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/modern >>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > Modern mailing list > Modern@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/modern From nobody Tue Mar 1 08:23:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033811B2E60 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:23:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.206 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.206 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SIn3zywWult0 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from DC-IP-2.fcc.gov (dc-ip-2.fcc.gov [192.104.54.91]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FBF51B2E5E for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:23:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fccoffice.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-fcc-gov; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=nWTIaomUYZ6mYmlYSQvlULElW0a/lNRAv821DjaPkrk=; b=kPoI57c1uKFNVp62LWMVahRW6EKSNgkQyIQm7V535gOeWE9PWCg6nC+cwoYI53wyM/uvQiVVwoUlTD7k+pu1E5J81EnstIXKDoPZTTWJKS7umag6GtgNRw8H0r4WQCy2j02xluxmOBc7GE5yxYHLKA9OVsrGUZq5GFSpDqjut58= From: Henning Schulzrinne To: "DOLLY, MARTIN C" Thread-Topic: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Thread-Index: AQHRb2pm7PDoPWgGMEWIEhdbfE2ttZ88e5hwgABbCQCAAAB2AIAG2N/NgAAFsQCAAAEFoIABDrIAgAAD/zM= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 16:23:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <00ce01d16fae$7b74f470$725edd50$@ch> , <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch>, , <599713FB-6141-49A5-99DC-8A927A81C81A@att.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: hill-a.ch; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;hill-a.ch; dmarc=none action=none header.from=fcc.gov; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c35bfe42-ea92-46ac-2726-08d341edd4e8 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR09MB0635; 5:ivkwGIeOJ9RZYf/2wj3jlu5UzSKH4e1lrYSfOAApbWeHy5WaulysA5ACBCo1OLMQv3sfAW+mFxSXbguT12wijqh3RasuGbqsI+5gzxPJNmYJpRbs/wHKeD32V46cHQevhSWgZ1ItbRuEIBnEeNytPQ==; 24:89SpfBGZc7SwE4fzTQTH1FvseX+D1rN99/Vv8IeQWP18rYo4+Q0dmdqrGQIcG22k7sB61A6dUKJv4/vLf3g7o7jo5p8iJhMyXoQ2K7Z7tgo= x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR09MB0635; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(3002001)(10201501046); SRVR:CY1PR09MB0635; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR09MB0635; x-forefront-prvs: 086831DFB4 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(252514010)(24454002)(377454003)(325944007)(77096005)(1220700001)(1096002)(4326007)(6116002)(3280700002)(110136002)(586003)(102836003)(2906002)(5008740100001)(19580405001)(19580395003)(93886004)(122556002)(3900700001)(40100003)(3660700001)(2950100001)(86362001)(87936001)(15975445007)(2900100001)(50986999)(106116001)(19627405001)(76176999)(54356999)(99286002)(74316001)(19617315012)(5004730100002)(16236675004)(10400500002)(5002640100001)(5003600100002)(11100500001)(19625215002)(92566002)(33656002)(5001960100003)(81156008)(76576001)(189998001)(3826002)(18121605002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR09MB0635; H:CY1PR09MB0634.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY1PR09MB06348E3CB60B8BC4FDD241CEEABB0CY1PR09MB0634namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Mar 2016 16:23:32.3316 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72970aed-3669-4ca8-b960-dd016bc72973 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR09MB0635 X-OriginatorOrg: fcc.gov Archived-At: Cc: Richard Hill , Modern List , "McGarry, Tom" Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 16:23:40 -0000 --_000_CY1PR09MB06348E3CB60B8BC4FDD241CEEABB0CY1PR09MB0634namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm hoping that any MODERN output simplifies enforcement. A lot of problems= with numbering (say, 800#) are where companies explore (or exploit, if you= like) the gray areas of the rules. For example, "hoarding" is hard to defi= ne precisely and concepts of active usage are becoming harder to define as = numbers get used in non-traditional ways such as in IOT applications or whe= re a single communication end point can have any number of identifiers. (Th= e numbered entity may be a pipeline monitor that only sends messages when t= he pipeline has burst. You'd hope that it remains inactive.) Defining what would help enforcement in the data structures would be a usef= ul, and I suspect you have operational experience that can be helpful here. ICANN is going through some of the same problems (see the whois discussion = and validation of registrand credentials). The more you can automate valida= tion of data in the database, the easier it is to do enforcement at scale. Henning ________________________________ From: DOLLY, MARTIN C Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 10:50 AM To: Henning Schulzrinne Cc: Richard Hill; McGarry, Tom; Modern List Subject: RE: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Henning, Where I agree we need to automate the process so that numbers flow down the= chain easily particularly for IoT, I also believe that the FCC will only d= irectly assign numbers to entities that the FCC can PUNISH. Regards, Martin From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov] Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 6:54 PM To: DOLLY, MARTIN C Cc: Richard Hill ; McGarry, Tom ;= Modern List Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft NRA delegates to registry (LNP, NANPA, etc.); registry delegates to carrier= ; carrier loans/assigns/delegates (whatever the legal arrangement is; subst= itute your favorite term) to some value-added service provider; VASP assign= s to GM and GM assigns number to car. This is the IOT case. Or GM assigns numbers from its "supply" to factory in Kokomo, IN; Delco pl= ant assigns to PBX extensions. All of this should happen without having to employ a number manager to log = into a web site, submit a file via ftp or send a fax. Does that make sense? Henning ________________________________ From: DOLLY, MARTIN C > Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 6:38 PM To: Henning Schulzrinne Cc: Richard Hill; McGarry, Tom; Modern List Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Henning Please expand on (3) Thank you Martin C Dolly Lead Member of Technical Staff Core & Government/Regulatory Standards AT&T Cell: 609-903-3360 Email: md3135@att.com On Feb 29, 2016, at 6:30 PM, Henning Schulzrinne > wrote: My understanding (and the use cases draft may need clarity on that) is that= the two facets are largely independent. In other words, you should be able= to run a TDM network with step switches and allocate numbers via an IP-bas= ed process, even if you may have to use a dial-up modem to get your IP pack= ets. (As far as I know, the current US-specific number management and porti= ng process is based, in part, on Internet protocols, just a bit on the date= d side.) I think suggestions on removing US-specific language are useful. As discuss= ed in this thread, I do see six broad challenges that apply, in combination= s in many jurisdictions: (1) IP transition (2) porting (either newly-introduced or with new capabilities, e.g., betwee= n different modes or geographies), possibly with mechanisms other than voic= e-based validation of porting intent (3) automation for multiple levels of delegation, whether for PBX or some I= OT applications (4) accountability of both holdership and "meta" data (CNAM) (5) improved number utilization, with more "just-in-time" processes (6) more flexibility in the number and structure of registrars/registries (= including, for small countries, outsourcing to third parties rather than cr= eating technology specific to Liechtenstein) My sense is that the US is facing more of these challenges than many countr= ies at this point, but they don't seem US-specific. This is not new - TV wh= itespaces and emergency caller location for wireless were initially largely= US problems, too. Henning ________________________________ From: Modern > on b= ehalf of Richard Hill > Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 9:44 AM To: 'McGarry, Tom'; 'Modern List' Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Yes, but such a green field space can, and has been, implemented on the PST= N, so the use of an all IP solution is not a requirement. Whereas your dr= aft implies that it is, unless I misunderstood something. Best, Richard _______________________________________________ Modern mailing list Modern@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/modern --_000_CY1PR09MB06348E3CB60B8BC4FDD241CEEABB0CY1PR09MB0634namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm hoping that any MODERN output simplifies enforcement. A lot of probl= ems with numbering (say, 800#) are where companies explore (or exploit, if = you like) the gray areas of the rules. For example, "hoarding&quo= t; is hard to define precisely and concepts of active usage are becoming harder to define as numbers get used in non-trad= itional ways such as in IOT applications or where a single communication en= d point can have any number of identifiers. (The numbered entity may be a p= ipeline monitor that only sends messages when the pipeline has burst. You'd hope that it remains inactive.= )


Defining what would help enforcement in the data structures would be a u= seful, and I suspect you have operational experience that can be helpf= ul here.


ICANN is going through some of the same problems (see the whois discussi= on and validation of registrand credentials). The more you can automate val= idation of data in the database, the easier it is to do enforcement at scal= e.


Henning


From: DOLLY, MARTIN C <m= d3135@att.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 10:50 AM
To: Henning Schulzrinne
Cc: Richard Hill; McGarry, Tom; Modern List
Subject: RE: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft
 

Henning,

 

Where I agree we need to automate the process so that numb= ers flow down the chain easily particularly for IoT, I also believe that th= e FCC will only directly assign numbers to entities that the FCC can PUNISH.

 

Regards,

 

Martin

 

From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc= .gov]
Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 6:54 PM
To: DOLLY, MARTIN C <md3135@att.com>
Cc: Richard Hill <rhill@hill-a.ch>; McGarry, Tom <Tom.McGar= ry@neustar.biz>; Modern List <modern@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft

 

NRA delegates to registry (LNP, NANPA, etc.= ); registry delegates to carrier; carrier loans/assigns/delegates (whatever= the legal arrangement is; substitute your favorite term) to some value-added service provider; VASP assigns to GM and GM=  assigns number to car. This is the IOT case.

 

Or GM  assigns numbers from its "= supply" to factory in Kokomo, IN; Delco plant assigns to PBX extension= s.

 

All of this should happen without having to empl= oy a number manager to log into a web site, submit a file via ftp = ;or send a fax.

 

Doe= s that make sense?

&nb= sp;

Hen= ning

From: DOLLY, MARTIN C <md3135@att.com>
Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 6:38 PM
To: Henning Schulzrinne
Cc: Richard Hill; McGarry, Tom; Modern List
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft

&nb= sp;

Hen= ning

&nb= sp;

Ple= ase expand on (3)

&nb= sp;

Tha= nk you

Martin C Dolly

Lea= d Member of Technical Staff

Cor= e & Government/Regulatory Standards 

AT&= amp;T

Cel= l: 609-903-3360

Ema= il: md3135@att.com

On Feb 29, 2016, at 6:30 PM, Henning Schulzrinne <Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov> wrote:

My understanding (and the use cases draft may ne= ed clarity on that) is that the two facets are largely independent. In othe= r words, you should be able to run a TDM network with step switches and allocate numbers via an IP-based process, even if y= ou may have to use a dial-up modem to get your IP packets. (As far as I kno= w, the current US-specific number management and porting process is ba= sed, in part, on Internet protocols, just a bit on the dated side.)

 

I think suggestions on removing US-specific lang= uage are useful. As discussed in this thread, I do see six broad challenges= that apply, in combinations in many jurisdictions:

 

(1) IP transition

(2) porting (either newly-introduced or with new= capabilities, e.g., between different modes or geographies), possibly with= mechanisms other than voice-based validation of porting intent

(3) automation for multiple levels of delegation= , whether for PBX or some IOT applications

(4) accountability of both holdership and "= meta" data (CNAM)

(5) improved number utilization, with more "= ;just-in-time" processes

(6) more flexibility in the number and structure= of registrars/registries (including, for small countries, outsourcing to t= hird parties rather than creating technology specific to Liechtenstein)

&nb= sp;

My = sense is that the US is facing more of these challenges than many countries= at this point, but they don't seem US-specific. This is not new - TV white= spaces and emergency caller location for wireless were initially largely US problems, too.

&nb= sp;

Hen= ning

From: Modern <modern-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Richard Hill <rhill@hill-a.ch>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 9:44 AM
To: 'McGarry, Tom'; 'Modern List'
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft

&nb= sp;

Yes, but such a green field = space can, and has been, implemented on the PSTN, so the use of an all IP s= olution is  not a requirement.  Whereas your draft implies that it is, unless I misunderstood something.

 

Best,

Richard

 

___= ____________________________________________
Modern mailing list
Modern@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mode= rn

--_000_CY1PR09MB06348E3CB60B8BC4FDD241CEEABB0CY1PR09MB0634namp_-- From nobody Tue Mar 1 09:00:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225591B2FEC for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:00:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.207 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.207 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ksYCIDxrqaA0 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:00:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from DC-IP-1.fcc.gov (dc-ip-1.fcc.gov [192.104.54.97]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C542B1B2F5C for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:59:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fccoffice.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-fcc-gov; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=ETAWTXH3EELD+jqYQkbxjs1dIFpIz1QcTQJcQs5eV8Y=; b=lDWf5QB62Vm+AAm9R+1h08KMfRs1ne+qN4YzJs38/cmV/8p8nw+rm1MmngUkNpWb5ksRfrX3RSZ9BXhoh3SEdmSq0VYZQtFcQaLjA7md+SBStHpm+0fdeAjKWlNBJ1UyCQG1agmcPaiVJMHEt6jxjJx+24BcM71OnRid1BNMQXQ= From: Henning Schulzrinne To: Richard Hill , 'Richard Shockey' , 'Paul Kyzivat' , 'Modern List' Thread-Topic: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Thread-Index: AQHRb2pm7PDoPWgGMEWIEhdbfE2ttZ88e5hwgABbCQCAAAB2AIAAA5cAgAAUeeCAAAWi8P//30YAgAAzgrCAAFplAIABOrGAgAT96JCAABmogIAAk2aAgACOtgc= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 16:59:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> <68346e41454447f1b75d61da4c51821b@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <3af9e40382f34867bd866707fc4b1ce9@PLSWE13M01.ad.sprint.com> <0dd72becae6d4d9b8ea4bccc4d9f9602@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56CF87AE.6070801@alum.mit.edu> <4EE72534-1CF1-46B1-82DB-7BE9DA260543@shockey.us>, <005201d17393$3a8dbfd0$afa93f70$@ch> In-Reply-To: <005201d17393$3a8dbfd0$afa93f70$@ch> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: hill-a.ch; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;hill-a.ch; dmarc=none action=none header.from=fcc.gov; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: eed241c9-aeca-4721-df33-08d341f2dcac x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR09MB0635; 5:Z0rJaC1ZMMPEk1+MPgJlPfFAvbdVW+A5axRPtuJxP003VCxgMBgy8VDI+YZROVcvWoxtxxDYbNRncVQr5ZTAQQDprOe92Skwy5WkW+W+WfE+gIr8DXNP0plen8iZFeBRL/jnEHHbdNydued3mXvAZg==; 24:dBDP4kbXbvuOougjZPFUPF/tp6vVLPtoCHcmejy0v9YKDkQEMkrdfgrH7RBtUJc+6bfa8REcxWJw4305fzopSt80AEbM/CtVfr1ArR4kfjM= x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR09MB0635; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(3002001)(10201501046); SRVR:CY1PR09MB0635; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR09MB0635; x-forefront-prvs: 086831DFB4 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(77096005)(5001770100001)(1220700001)(1096002)(3280700002)(6116002)(107886002)(586003)(102836003)(2906002)(5008740100001)(19580395003)(93886004)(5001960100004)(81156009)(122556002)(40100003)(3660700001)(2950100001)(86362001)(2900100001)(87936001)(15975445007)(50986999)(106116001)(76176999)(54356999)(99286002)(74316001)(5004730100002)(10400500002)(5002640100001)(11100500001)(5003600100002)(92566002)(33656002)(76576001)(189998001)(3826002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR09MB0635; H:CY1PR09MB0634.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Mar 2016 16:59:32.5361 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72970aed-3669-4ca8-b960-dd016bc72973 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR09MB0635 X-OriginatorOrg: fcc.gov Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 17:00:37 -0000 I think it would be helpful for everybody to tell their friends in various = places to invite them to the MODERN party. > >I still have > problems undertaking work where the actual user community has not > weighed in on requirements. I=92d feel a lot better if there was some > input from BEREC for instance. > > http://berec.europa.eu/ As I said before, if the intent is to develop something that is not targete= d only at the USA, then it would be worth trying to broaden the source of i= nputs. Consulting BEREC would indeed make sense, but I would enlarge to in= clude the GSMA and ITU-T Study Group 2. From nobody Tue Mar 1 09:26:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C53B1B3036 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:26:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.207 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.207 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mlq2JTrv5pHQ for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from DC-IP-2.fcc.gov (dc-ip-2.fcc.gov [192.104.54.91]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6378A1B3033 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:26:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fccoffice.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-fcc-gov; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=om8paXSupUHyj0BO8UuQW41yvNFUTPmP335Bhvre9jk=; b=MWRrSG0GeRPMvAfc4epOEDWeJHINEAQFyhYIC31ZSdVObEZjGTrw7KXZP1cepU/9y4EQlxnys9EIWYAtgypGPBINSrRWTZRW/mx2L5hfRjly/983BJbMYh3jf5Povoy9EWlC2bSNWgHJKiXF21JEq6NPnMuyc1f1kqhuQnA4zC0= From: Henning Schulzrinne To: Richard Hill , 'Richard Shockey' , 'Paul Kyzivat' , 'Modern List' Thread-Topic: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Thread-Index: AQHRb2pm7PDoPWgGMEWIEhdbfE2ttZ88e5hwgABbCQCAAAB2AIAAA5cAgAAUeeCAAAWi8P//30YAgAAzgrCAAFplAIABOrGAgAT96JCAAKo0sIAAk/oQ Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 17:26:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> <68346e41454447f1b75d61da4c51821b@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <3af9e40382f34867bd866707fc4b1ce9@PLSWE13M01.ad.sprint.com> <0dd72becae6d4d9b8ea4bccc4d9f9602@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56CF87AE.6070801@alum.mit.edu>, , <003301d17392$72bec760$583c5620$@ch> In-Reply-To: <003301d17392$72bec760$583c5620$@ch> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: hill-a.ch; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;hill-a.ch; dmarc=none action=none header.from=fcc.gov; x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR09MB0633; 5:OcTVCK6v7ngR3BDLB+DhaVG6ijYjSB7xJPYSYtLgEYQkkgc8geLQYgQ/Rf313FuSMbS0XrElMj/DGYN6drsP/8a8XmodYODqG5CYXEuA45cLpXB40sKHJPTKxCdlrOYHjZyxfeQmgxraHtULqTb2JQ==; 24:V/LB5BtLQwGGgMeRTcrM64/jjCAF0sIx6ooyEGRhbC8RpeBE6bk+7NTptHdH77fQssaBOj8dU1+julMp5Bd/ZY8IVbMc/wDf5eu+m5eszqY= x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR09MB0633; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: aa2f64d3-e88b-42b4-b6b7-08d341f6ac40 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(3002001)(10201501046); SRVR:CY1PR09MB0633; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR09MB0633; x-forefront-prvs: 086831DFB4 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(586003)(19580395003)(122556002)(106116001)(3660700001)(3280700002)(15975445007)(99286002)(5001770100001)(40100003)(5008740100001)(86362001)(5003600100002)(11100500001)(2950100001)(5001960100004)(81156009)(74316001)(2900100001)(2906002)(102836003)(5002640100001)(1096002)(1220700001)(33656002)(107886002)(2171001)(76576001)(50986999)(54356999)(10400500002)(189998001)(77096005)(93886004)(87936001)(76176999)(92566002)(6116002)(3826002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR09MB0633; H:CY1PR09MB0634.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Mar 2016 17:26:49.4710 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72970aed-3669-4ca8-b960-dd016bc72973 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR09MB0633 X-OriginatorOrg: fcc.gov Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 17:26:55 -0000 I think we all agree that urgency and timelines will differ across countrie= s. To some extent, the US *is* special because it has such a large number o= f carriers. I'm not aware of any other country that has 4000+ certificated = carriers, and some of these are bottom-fishers. Even the extent of the robocall and spoofing problems seems to differ drama= tically across countries.=20 I do believe that, increasingly, many (smaller/niche) carriers will use out= -of-the-box management systems for their voice services rather than home br= ew, so it helps everyone if vendors don't have to build 100's of slightly d= ifferent number management protocols. Many carriers are now using open-sour= ce components, e.g., for their SIP proxies. >and, in particular, > with upgrading the existing number portability system, That may or may not be necessary. >if they have > one, or creating one. The current number portability (whether or not > it's geographic) leaves much to be desired, as recent events > (https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-plans-296-million-fine-slamming- > cramming-and-obstruction-0 makes a good read) illustrate. Have similar issues arisen elsewhere? From nobody Tue Mar 1 10:09:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89BB41B3143 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 10:09:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g9-BkdNl4K4Z for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 10:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2B601B311F for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 10:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-08v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.104]) by resqmta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Qi8g1s0062Fh1PH01i9GNE; Tue, 01 Mar 2016 18:09:16 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([73.218.51.154]) by resomta-ch2-08v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Qi7G1s00B3KdFy101i7G27; Tue, 01 Mar 2016 18:07:16 +0000 To: modern@ietf.org References: <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> <68346e41454447f1b75d61da4c51821b@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <3af9e40382f34867bd866707fc4b1ce9@PLSWE13M01.ad.sprint.com> <0dd72becae6d4d9b8ea4bccc4d9f9602@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56CF87AE.6070801@alum.mit.edu> <2fd8adae247f4e9eaa9ae45eafcd7f82@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56D4BD28.4070908@alum.mit.edu> <4A92E814-530D-430A-A457-48BE8DDB44AE@shockey.us> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <56D5DA53.7090408@alum.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 13:07:15 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4A92E814-530D-430A-A457-48BE8DDB44AE@shockey.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1456855756; bh=aSjSpu3d3O1gxRo29Tab47q/MYsh44JuZXuIvCJs/cA=; h=Received:Received:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=ftRYqZRzvXhKed2mT7EJdNrz6DoKZf+PHDwJGT94yFtiBTTFJGdYtroH7G6kyWJp8 TZunrHhAmGQkC1R6TV4A13CzZMuRHtAYkX/vkrb+4wiOg3CnTqrIpa0ByfidIIrKw1 fc58QfhEGPompEiwDyq0YY9d4hxrnSXmCRe6adZ2YeqYKW1Vic2f9W+8xGN5aGugJn dCN5Ip58Ocqx+5mb0fCQPek4pUo4891EpaUr0ZSjuqAtj3DSxNdiziRk8wQm4/ADet FTIdJXgJtym/XpI43bhYfuy+h93kt9h97MQRDnhBWbzpsfMTEQoUQKAxAG8aZ/O4NS QNmsBTh2jggiQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 18:09:18 -0000 On 2/29/16 6:52 PM, Richard Shockey wrote: > > If I had 5 dollars for every time I've heard “phone numbers are stupid” “We need to use SIP URI’s". I would not be on this list but enjoying the sun at my retirement home on St. Barts or some other charming estate with my own private distillery making craft gin or calvados. I have yet to see a SIP URI on any Pizza Delivery vehicle. Sure. But how many people discover how to order a pizza by looking at a pizza car? For that matter, what percentage of phone calls involve someone actually typing in a phone number? To the extent that the number is simply something listed in your address book, or in a link on a web site, there is no real reason for it to be an E.164 number. The key feature of phone numbers is that there is a broadly interoperable infrastructure for communicating between things identified by those numbers. Thanks, Paul > http://time.com/4170936/facebook-messenger-2016/ > > > > >>> >>> Wireless and cable carriers are moving inexhorably towards the IP Multimedia Subsystem (IMS) developed by 3GPP (and enhanced/modified by ETSI, Cable Labs, et al). The 3GPP IMS specs embrace the idea of both public and private identities. The ETSI enhancements have been particularly focused on wireline convergence on an IMS signaling and media architecture. >>> >>> It seems reasonable that an IMS public user identity might be paul-kyzivat.name and which could be used as a user@host format in a SIP URI either as paul-kyzivat.name@paul-kyzivat.name (where Paul Kyzivat has presumably created his own individual private "carrier" so to speak) or as paul-kyzivat.name@carrier-name.com where the paul-kyzivat.name user name is associated with a hosted SIP service through carrier-name.com. >> >> All you need to do is look to the design of sip, which fits much better >> with email-style URLs than phone numbers, to see that this was a vision >>from way back. It hasn't happened yet. It may yet happen. But your >> specific suggestion works a lot better for paul-kyzivat than it does for >> john-smith. :-) At the end of the day friendly names are also a scarce >> resource. So *somebody* still needs to ration them in some way. But >> frankly I would rather it not be my carrier who does it. >> >> Why can't I attach any sip URL I "own" (my preference being >> sip:pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu) to my phone number and have calls to it >> routed through the carriers to my phone? >> >>> I won't try to write much more beyond this other than to say that if the core of the MODERN "problem statement" is individual assignment, then there may be solutions or solution frameworks which are superior to the MODERN solution framework variations so far advanced. >>> >>> Make sense? >>> >>> Pierce >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Modern [mailto:modern-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Kyzivat >>> Sent: February 25, 2016 5:01 PM >>> To: modern@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft >>> >>> On 2/25/16 1:01 PM, Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] wrote: >>> >>>> Telephone numbers are owned and assigned first and foremost by >>>> national numbering authorities. >>>> >>>> The number authorities delegate number blocks to licensed regulated >>>> entities which both make individual assignments and further delegate >>>> block assignments. (Very much like RIRs not surprisingly.) >>> >>> [Disclaimer: I am just a kibitzer here. I have no skin in the game.] >>> >>> Certainly what you say is the reality. And I am sure that the licensed and regulated entities do regard these numbers as *theirs*. >>> >>> But us end users regard the numbers as *ours*. The fact that we must go, hat in hand, to our carrier and beg for any sort of administration of that number is a *problem*, not a feature. Anything that will give us more control over *our* numbers is a *good* thing! >>> >>> I have no illusions that the carriers share this opinion. I do hope that the FCC does. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Paul >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Modern mailing list >>> Modern@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/modern >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> This e-mail may contain Sprint proprietary information intended for the sole use of the recipient(s). Any use by others is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies of the message. >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Modern mailing list >> Modern@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/modern > > _______________________________________________ > Modern mailing list > Modern@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/modern > From nobody Tue Mar 1 11:38:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38FDB1B406B for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 11:38:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.207 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.207 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I9Hu-cLmnDi3 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 11:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from DC-IP-2.fcc.gov (dc-ip-2.fcc.gov [192.104.54.91]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2EF01B4070 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 11:38:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fccoffice.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-fcc-gov; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=K1xjX3BOZBR1roBM/j/SJZa+swdoA6jJDYrTtTPwbAk=; b=KEyDmoJM8c3vTGPwgce0Bmf6uXh+FGG1TqmUOKD5cUFJRt9clxgAnq5q3gvBmBADxWfcaIiWgwOOeqhqBoyrdUrEYJCG30eXjOYy2/I19F6H6UZJ8zvWuK8Ds0Rs0ULDF+i3bokzTcnzYMQFYP9buJHstnd4WCU9cjR79SiJ3l4= From: Henning Schulzrinne To: Paul Kyzivat , "modern@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Thread-Index: AQHRb2pm7PDoPWgGMEWIEhdbfE2ttZ88e5hwgABbCQCAAAB2AIAAA5cAgAAUeeCAAAWi8P//30YAgAAzgrCAAFplAIAGDt2AgAAmxACAACIogIABMcqAgAAW2uk= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:38:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> <68346e41454447f1b75d61da4c51821b@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <3af9e40382f34867bd866707fc4b1ce9@PLSWE13M01.ad.sprint.com> <0dd72becae6d4d9b8ea4bccc4d9f9602@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56CF87AE.6070801@alum.mit.edu> <2fd8adae247f4e9eaa9ae45eafcd7f82@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56D4BD28.4070908@alum.mit.edu> <4A92E814-530D-430A-A457-48BE8DDB44AE@shockey.us>, <56D5DA53.7090408@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <56D5DA53.7090408@alum.mit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: alum.mit.edu; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;alum.mit.edu; dmarc=none action=none header.from=fcc.gov; x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR09MB0633; 5:8hqM88vO/7HDAa86kMK4FvY0VE2j3dEVpFTEb1DplfElzoOh/rQxdhluOZKBs7N4oUdNB1J9kWjXT0Unk2EuNZy38GPuMuGp3EQaiSLmM9NLTFRXTxhJvwLK8vhfU5T07SsSPIvplmpoyCH0YIMNNA==; 24:bBVSfOzHl+4a5ps2Tp2yEoqtgynpijJ/pyCSDXX9lkZRCYOc405kXav1tthP54NPtGLsprp2OHELwnj8AC6Ymhl7vmazoxfQKL+QfgCoRJg= x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR09MB0633; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7b6e26c0-504c-4af9-15aa-08d3420903fc x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(3002001)(10201501046); SRVR:CY1PR09MB0633; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR09MB0633; x-forefront-prvs: 086831DFB4 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(164054003)(479174004)(24454002)(377454003)(5002640100001)(107886002)(33656002)(87936001)(19580405001)(1096002)(1220700001)(93886004)(76176999)(6116002)(92566002)(5001960100004)(81156009)(2171001)(76576001)(50986999)(77096005)(54356999)(189998001)(10400500002)(122556002)(40100003)(5008740100001)(5001770100001)(99286002)(19580395003)(102836003)(586003)(106116001)(3660700001)(3280700002)(74316001)(2900100001)(2906002)(3900700001)(11100500001)(2950100001)(86362001)(5003600100002)(2501003)(3826002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR09MB0633; H:CY1PR09MB0634.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Mar 2016 19:38:07.4769 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72970aed-3669-4ca8-b960-dd016bc72973 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR09MB0633 X-OriginatorOrg: fcc.gov Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 19:38:14 -0000 Even though it's rarely used without the aid of an address book, the all-nu= mbers, least-common-denominator property still seems to matter. It might be= the only thing you can read on a Chinese poster or a Korean hotel business= card. This seems to be one of those cases where 100% coverage is much more= valuable than 95% cases-covered. Often, if you need the phone number, you = really need it, right now (and well beyond 911 and kin). In many cases, the phone number has also become a (secondary) customer iden= tifier, so converting to something else means updating the grocery store lo= yalty card, the bank customer database and similar systems. As long as huma= ns write things less than calligraphy-quality, numbers also seem less likel= y to get confused (i vs. 1, O vs. 0, j vs. i, m vs. n). ________________________________________ From: Modern on behalf of Paul Kyzivat Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 1:07 PM To: modern@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft On 2/29/16 6:52 PM, Richard Shockey wrote: > > If I had 5 dollars for every time I've heard =93phone numbers are stupid= =94 =93We need to use SIP URI=92s". I would not be on this list but enjoyi= ng the sun at my retirement home on St. Barts or some other charming estate= with my own private distillery making craft gin or calvados. I have yet to= see a SIP URI on any Pizza Delivery vehicle. Sure. But how many people discover how to order a pizza by looking at a pizza car? For that matter, what percentage of phone calls involve someone actually typing in a phone number? To the extent that the number is simply something listed in your address book, or in a link on a web site, there is no real reason for it to be an E.164 number. The key feature of phone numbers is that there is a broadly interoperable infrastructure for communicating between things identified by those numbers. Thanks, Paul From nobody Tue Mar 1 11:57:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 940D71B40AE for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 11:57:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f_Uv9bZsTVHb for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 11:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.25.95]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 771E51B40A8 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 11:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12411 invoked by uid 0); 1 Mar 2016 19:57:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw4) (10.0.90.85) by gproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2016 19:57:41 -0000 Received: from box462.bluehost.com ([74.220.219.62]) by cmgw4 with id Qjxa1s01n1MNPNq01jxdkd; Tue, 01 Mar 2016 12:57:40 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=FouWoQbq c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jTEj1adHphCQ5SwrTAOQMg==:117 a=jTEj1adHphCQ5SwrTAOQMg==:17 a=L9H7d07YOLsA:10 a=9cW_t1CCXrUA:10 a=s5jvgZ67dGcA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=8WrITzYgnNwA:10 a=p-_XEfp0GhYA:10 a=7OsogOcEt9IA:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=ZxKDxK2YNEuWysqmL_oA:9 a=uR1OZah7qSvaGmyW:21 a=XWUqyK7icfN0wT-H:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shockey.us; s=default; h=Content-transfer-encoding:Content-type:Mime-version:In-Reply-To:References:Message-ID:To:From:Subject:Date; bh=s3lgLb0VZJDBK+0JFTNI1eeIBSbtHGf6sJn8FwTni+0=; b=e4IvZdfwqS/rP1Umrf8StdgtiHRrp0UANBARBw3tlo9Ogb40big5pkqblTlN4iNx/ZGbSBxz9Jui2p8ib6pz/tuLvlgvLqP4YT08sRglATpPkgeNIQpIhb0+minpF8gM; Received: from [100.36.35.60] (port=60933 helo=[192.168.1.9]) by box462.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aaqQI-0004Az-LY; Tue, 01 Mar 2016 12:57:34 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.160212 Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 14:57:27 -0500 From: Richard Shockey To: Henning Schulzrinne , Paul Kyzivat , "modern@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft References: <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> <68346e41454447f1b75d61da4c51821b@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <3af9e40382f34867bd866707fc4b1ce9@PLSWE13M01.ad.sprint.com> <0dd72becae6d4d9b8ea4bccc4d9f9602@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56CF87AE.6070801@alum.mit.edu> <2fd8adae247f4e9eaa9ae45eafcd7f82@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56D4BD28.4070908@alum.mit.edu> <4A92E814-530D-430A-A457-48BE8DDB44AE@shockey.us> <56D5DA53.7090408@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Identified-User: {3286:box462.bluehost.com:shockeyu:shockey.us} {sentby:smtp auth 100.36.35.60 authed with richard+shockey.us} Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 19:57:50 -0000 As much as I hate to give Jon any real ammo for his argument. I don=E2=80=99t thi= nk the use cases adequately covered the IoT issue and E.212. As we pointed o= ut the relationship between TSP and consumer is the critical element specifi= cally due to the billing relationship. The issue w Telematics and further I= oT issues does point out that the number management systems might be structu= red differently for different application sets. But the ultimate validity th= ree part system Registrant Registrar and Registry still holds. On 3/1/16, 2:38 PM, "Modern on behalf of Henning Schulzrinne" wrote: >Even though it's rarely used without the aid of an address book, the all-n= umbers, least-common-denominator property still seems to matter. It might be= the only thing you can read on a Chinese poster or a Korean hotel business = card. This seems to be one of those cases where 100% coverage is much more v= aluable than 95% cases-covered. Often, if you need the phone number, you rea= lly need it, right now (and well beyond 911 and kin). > >In many cases, the phone number has also become a (secondary) customer ide= ntifier, so converting to something else means updating the grocery store lo= yalty card, the bank customer database and similar systems. As long as human= s write things less than calligraphy-quality, numbers also seem less likely = to get confused (i vs. 1, O vs. 0, j vs. i, m vs. n). RS> Indeed and with NG-NP we can eliminate one more hassle for the consumer= . And increase the NANP size ..etc. Of course by the time it could be succes= sfully implemented I=E2=80=99ll probably be raising goats in western part of VA. =20 > >________________________________________ >From: Modern on behalf of Paul Kyzivat >Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 1:07 PM >To: modern@ietf.org >Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft > >On 2/29/16 6:52 PM, Richard Shockey wrote: >> >> If I had 5 dollars for every time I've heard =E2=80=9Cphone numbers are stupid= =E2=80=9D =E2=80=9CWe need to use SIP URI=E2=80=99s". I would not be on this list but enjoyin= g the sun at my retirement home on St. Barts or some other charming estate w= ith my own private distillery making craft gin or calvados. I have yet to se= e a SIP URI on any Pizza Delivery vehicle. > >Sure. But how many people discover how to order a pizza by looking at a >pizza car? > >For that matter, what percentage of phone calls involve someone actually >typing in a phone number? > >To the extent that the number is simply something listed in your address >book, or in a link on a web site, there is no real reason for it to be >an E.164 number. > >The key feature of phone numbers is that there is a broadly >interoperable infrastructure for communicating between things identified >by those numbers. > > Thanks, > Paul > >_______________________________________________ >Modern mailing list >Modern@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/modern From nobody Tue Mar 1 12:25:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B7E41B4132 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 12:25:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dFRFTR3ZiSW4 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 12:25:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-sh2.infomaniak.ch (smtp-sh2.infomaniak.ch [128.65.195.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B0C91B4130 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 12:25:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.infomaniak.ch (smtp3.infomaniak.ch [84.16.68.91]) by smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u21KPSnY021581 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 1 Mar 2016 21:25:29 +0100 Received: from RHillNew (adsl-178-39-181-33.adslplus.ch [178.39.181.33]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp3.infomaniak.ch (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u21KPP8x019508; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 21:25:25 +0100 From: "Richard Hill" To: "'Henning Schulzrinne'" , "'Richard Shockey'" , "'Paul Kyzivat'" , "'Modern List'" References: <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> <68346e41454447f1b75d61da4c51821b@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <3af9e40382f34867bd866707fc4b1ce9@PLSWE13M01.ad.sprint.com> <0dd72becae6d4d9b8ea4bccc4d9f9602@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56CF87AE.6070801@alum.mit.edu> <4EE72534-1CF1-46B1-82DB-7BE9DA260543@shockey.us>, <005201d17393$3a8dbfd0$afa93f70$@ch> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 21:25:25 +0100 Message-ID: <042801d173f8$7ece7bc0$7c6b7340$@ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AQHRb2pm7PDoPWgGMEWIEhdbfE2ttZ88e5hwgABbCQCAAAB2AIAAA5cAgAAUeeCAAAWi8P//30YAgAAzgrCAAFplAIABOrGAgAT96JCAABmogIAAk2aAgACOtgeAADulIA== Content-Language: en-us X-Antivirus: Dr.Web (R) for Unix mail servers drweb plugin ver.6.0.2.8 X-Antivirus-Code: 0x100000 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 20:25:41 -0000 ITU responds better to formal written communications. If there is support for it, I can volunteer to draft a short liaison statement to ITU-T Study Group 2. Best, Richard > -----Original Message----- > From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov] > Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 18:00 > To: Richard Hill; 'Richard Shockey'; 'Paul Kyzivat'; 'Modern List' > Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case > Draft > > I think it would be helpful for everybody to tell their friends in > various places to invite them to the MODERN party. > > > > >I still have > > problems undertaking work where the actual user community has not > >weighed in on requirements. I'd feel a lot better if there was some > >input from BEREC for instance. > > > > http://berec.europa.eu/ > > As I said before, if the intent is to develop something that is not > targeted only at the USA, then it would be worth trying to broaden the > source of inputs. Consulting BEREC would indeed make sense, but I > would enlarge to include the GSMA and ITU-T Study Group 2. > > > From nobody Tue Mar 1 13:55:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9DE1B422D for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 13:55:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hXZX53tEqcr9 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 13:54:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0113.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.113]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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"Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" To: Paul Kyzivat , "modern@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Thread-Index: AQHRb2pm7PDoPWgGMEWIEhdbfE2ttZ88e5hwgABbCQCAAAB2AIAAA5cAgAAUeeCAAAWi8P//30YAgAAzgrCAAL77AIAFjtWQgACmywCAACIogIABMcuA//+faFA= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 21:54:51 +0000 Message-ID: <031ef212cfea4900b2287261d0de3c31@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> References: <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> <68346e41454447f1b75d61da4c51821b@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <3af9e40382f34867bd866707fc4b1ce9@PLSWE13M01.ad.sprint.com> <0dd72becae6d4d9b8ea4bccc4d9f9602@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56CF87AE.6070801@alum.mit.edu> <2fd8adae247f4e9eaa9ae45eafcd7f82@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56D4BD28.4070908@alum.mit.edu> <4A92E814-530D-430A-A457-48BE8DDB44AE@shockey.us> <56D5DA53.7090408@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <56D5DA53.7090408@alum.mit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted 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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qYnCsTT7SlBy for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2016 05:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from DC-IP-1.fcc.gov (dc-ip-1.fcc.gov [192.104.54.97]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5441A6F28 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2016 05:31:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fccoffice.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-fcc-gov; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=WjNlKeuaEJXjWFpR2J8BYkJgBpHEmEeeZVMq2yR6H8M=; b=Gj0VvFYMSjNZhUg0jzEl5g8z3/wTLPmdw182zrx8Vp64yIGY+LksvJpMto8/+8ixbNumF5zQGagV1FL2rS8KuZWfsJJZBi+nGlGp0veTsC6bGULa6usCxYCv8CcnGkqhVijMI6KhA6K3h33AlGzg6FA5ARxq7YBOyD/2b+b2QqY= From: Henning Schulzrinne To: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" , Paul Kyzivat , "modern@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Thread-Index: AQHRb2pm7PDoPWgGMEWIEhdbfE2ttZ88e5hwgABbCQCAAAB2AIAAA5cAgAAUeeCAAAWi8P//30YAgAAzgrCAAFplAIAGDt2AgAAmxACAACIogIABMcqAgAA/mICAAQDe4Q== Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 13:31:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> <68346e41454447f1b75d61da4c51821b@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <3af9e40382f34867bd866707fc4b1ce9@PLSWE13M01.ad.sprint.com> <0dd72becae6d4d9b8ea4bccc4d9f9602@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56CF87AE.6070801@alum.mit.edu> <2fd8adae247f4e9eaa9ae45eafcd7f82@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56D4BD28.4070908@alum.mit.edu> <4A92E814-530D-430A-A457-48BE8DDB44AE@shockey.us> <56D5DA53.7090408@alum.mit.edu>, <031ef212cfea4900b2287261d0de3c31@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> In-Reply-To: <031ef212cfea4900b2287261d0de3c31@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: sprint.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;sprint.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=fcc.gov; x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR09MB0633; 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SFS:(10019020)(377454003)(243025005)(77096005)(5008740100001)(122556002)(3660700001)(3846002)(33656002)(102836003)(6116002)(3280700002)(40100003)(5001770100001)(15975445007)(5001960100004)(107886002)(74316001)(19580405001)(10400500002)(11100500001)(92566002)(19580395003)(76576001)(2501003)(2900100001)(2950100001)(81156009)(3900700001)(5004730100002)(76176999)(189998001)(66066001)(54356999)(50986999)(5002640100001)(551544002)(86362001)(19627405001)(5003600100002)(19617315012)(586003)(19625215002)(106116001)(1096002)(99286002)(1220700001)(16236675004)(2171001)(87936001)(2906002)(93886004)(7059030); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR09MB0633; H:CY1PR09MB0634.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY1PR09MB06344F4CAA959ADE0EF14452EABC0CY1PR09MB0634namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Mar 2016 13:31:29.3875 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72970aed-3669-4ca8-b960-dd016bc72973 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR09MB0633 X-OriginatorOrg: fcc.gov Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 13:31:39 -0000 --_000_CY1PR09MB06344F4CAA959ADE0EF14452EABC0CY1PR09MB0634namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few quick comments: * You may find my IIT conference presentation relevant: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/papers/2015/2015-iit-identifiers.pdf * The notion of a universal identifier that then leads to communication ide= ntifiers like email addresses and phone numbers has a long history, with at= tempts like Plaxo and Brewster, as well as the more successful ones like Fa= cebook and LinkedIn. Given the conflicting objectives and human psychology,= this is not an easy problem to solve. (For example, apparently, asking you= r Tinder date for his or her SMS number is considered a significant step in= a relationship. The human protocol is a lot more complex than MODERN will = ever be...) * For scarce identifiers, there seem to be essentially two approaches, simi= lar to the spectrum management problem: (1) administrative (regulatory, etc.): make people file reports, measure ut= ilization, threaten punishment or loss of access, etc. (2) financial: make it economically inefficient to abuse these resources (s= pectrum fee proposals, spectrum auctions, BitCoin mining, domain name fees,= etc.) My sense is that the emphasis in the public policy and economics community = has moved from (1) to (2), but that the initial "free market" enthusiasm is= now being tempered a bit by the operational experiences, including market = failures, rent seeking, etc. One interesting development is the idea of funding public goods such as sta= ndards or research through such fees. (I believe ISOC gets a large part of = their budget through the .org registry, and in turn funds the IETF.) I don't know if that fully addresses your note, but I'm certainly straying = a bit from the core MODERN mission. Henning ________________________________ From: Modern on behalf of Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] = Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 4:54 PM To: Paul Kyzivat; modern@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft I=92m guilty of writing something I myself don=92t like to receive- a very = long e-mail. For those with little patience for such things, TLDR won=92t = hurt my feelings. =93The key feature of phone numbers is that there is a broadly interoperabl= e infrastructure for communicating between things identified by those numbe= rs.=94 =96 P. Kyzivat First, I=92ll simply agree, but emphasize the key word is =93communicating= =94 and that there is a fairly limited set of applications establishing com= munication using only a telephone number as an address. For the most part communication established using a telephone number is voi= ce calls and text messages (occasinally accompanied by small pictures). 3GPP and GSMA specifications envision the possibility of more, but do not e= ncompass (yet) communications such as tweets, social networking IM, commerc= ial website chat, and e-mail to name a few. In the past I=92ve advocated that telephone numbers and (private) ENUM coul= d dramatically help improve communications application reachability. And r= eally it isn=92t ENUM per se that offers such an opportunity so much as NAP= TR, SRV, and A/AAAA DNS resource records. And in that regard, a good old-f= ashioned domain name will work even better than a telephone number. And in= fact could be used to discover telephone numbers in TEL/SIP URIs. What I = like about NAPTR in particular is the ability to use a domain name to disco= ver multiple addresses and applications of interest for a given domain or h= ost with whom I would like to communicate in one or more ways. The main MODERN problems we=92re going to keep coming back to are security = and scarcity. With regard to security, very few of my children=92s generation have their = telephone number listed in a phone book and if you suggested they needed to= list their number they would most likely be annoyed or appalled (or ask, = =93what is a phone book?=94). THEY want to control who is able to communic= ate with them, and one of the prime ways they do that, whether they know it= or not, is through obscurity. Robo-dialers and worse are invading their p= rivacy and destroying their ability to remain anonymous and obscure yet ava= ilable. When I read about user agent assignments in MODERN, I immediately think of = Public ENUM (which failed and which Richard Shockey reminds us from time ti= me is =93dead=94). I think the main problem was fear of SPIT (SPAM over In= ternet Telephony). So to me the key problems remaining to be solved in user agent assignments = of reachability information are: 1) auditing and recovery [the scarcity problem] 2) securely controlling access to the reachability information [the = security problem] I will paraphrase the suggestion made by Henning on the call today as, =93M= ODERN should acknowledge aportionment from a limited address space can act = as a form of containment for damage from abuse of that space.=94 It=92s a pretty crude form of containment, but it does somewhat address the= problems at #1, but we can do better I think. As acknowledged by 3GPP IMS technical specifications, single user assignmen= ts should include the concept of public addresses (best for applications wi= th SPAM filters), and private addresses for those entities or applications = permitted more secure access. I suggest that public addresses should be nearly infinite with little restr= iction on their syntax such as are invidual domain names of the .name top-l= evel domain. Private addresses should be discoverable from the public addresses insofar = as the discoverer has one or more key(s) permitting them access to that inf= ormation. (This is similar to the idea that bad actors whom wish to use co= nfidence to commit fraud and theft use a telephone number to place a call t= o someone and then using social engineering and pschological manipulation a= s a password, retrieve more valuable information such as credit card number= s.) Discovery could be conducted using something like a NAPTR + OPT RR DNS quer= y using (MODERN?) application-specific logic and where the key(s) in the qu= ery were supplied in the OPT RR ala something like =93draft-kaplan-dnsext-e= num-sip-source-ref-opt-code-00=94 but without the ENUM reverse decimal dot = notation and instead using the public individual domain name. (Clearly, th= is isn=92t something you could do using your father=92s DNS.) A key to one or more of the private addresses could be something as simple = as a 10-digit telephone number but really should be simply a password (and = of course potentially very long ugly passwords incorporating prime numbers = could be used too depending upon who is asking and what application they=92= re asking for/from). One or more subsets of private addresses could be rea= chable via one or more passwords. Some of the discoverable private =93address=94 information could be a perso= nal telephone number and a STIR public key certificate and the address of t= he certificate authority, for example. Other kinds of discoverable private address information could include URIs = for Twitter, Facebook, e-mail, et cetera. I believe what I=92ve described could be part of a MODERN solution framewor= k, but would not necessarily include primary assignment of an individual=92= s private telephone number (although it wouldn=92t prevent it either). The= logic offered today for porting could even be expanded to broker commercia= l service registration transactions with providers such as CSPs and social = networks. There would necessarily be the usual domain name and password security issu= es, but domain names are not going away and they don=92t suffer from being = a finite address space heavily integrated into legacy PSTN databases (yet). ________________________________ This e-mail may contain Sprint proprietary information intended for the sol= e use of the recipient(s). Any use by others is prohibited. If you are not = the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies of = the message. --_000_CY1PR09MB06344F4CAA959ADE0EF14452EABC0CY1PR09MB0634namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A few quick comments:


* You may find my IIT conference presentation relevant:


http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/pa= pers/2015/2015-iit-identifiers.pdf


* The notion of a universal identifier that then leads to communication = identifiers like email addresses and phone numbers has a long history, with= attempts like Plaxo and Brewster, as well as the more successful ones like= Facebook and LinkedIn. Given the conflicting objectives and human psychology, this is not an easy problem t= o solve. (For example, apparently, asking your Tinder date for his or her S= MS number is considered a significant step in a relationship. The human pro= tocol is a lot more complex than MODERN will ever be...)


* For scarce identifiers, there seem to be essentially two approaches, s= imilar to the spectrum management problem:


(1) administrative (regulatory, etc.): make people file reports, measure= utilization, threaten punishment or loss of access, etc.


(2) financial: make it economically inefficient to abuse these resources= (spectrum fee proposals, spectrum auctions, BitCoin mining, domain na= me fees, etc.)


My sense is that the emphasis in the public policy and economics commu= nity has moved from (1) to (2), but that the initial "free market"= ; enthusiasm is now being tempered a bit by the operational experiences, in= cluding market failures, rent seeking, etc.

One interesting development is the idea of funding public goods such a= s standards or research through such fees. (I believe ISOC gets a larg= e part of their budget through the .org registry, and in turn funds the IET= F.)

I don't know if that fully addresses your note, but I'm certainly straying = a bit from the core MODERN mission.

Henning

From: Modern <modern-bou= nces@ietf.org> on behalf of Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] <Pierce.Gorman@spr= int.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 4:54 PM
To: Paul Kyzivat; modern@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft
 

I=92m guilty of writing something I myself don=92t like to receive- a very = long e-mail.  For those with little patience for such things, TLDR won= =92t hurt my feelings.

 

=93The key feature of phone numbers is that there is a broadly interoperabl= e infrastructure for communicating between things identified by those numbe= rs.=94 =96 P. Kyzivat

 

First, I=92ll simply agree, but emphasize the key word is =93communicating= =94 and that there is a fairly limited set of applications establishing com= munication using only a telephone number as an address.

 

For the most part communication established using a telephone number is voi= ce calls and text messages (occasinally accompanied by small pictures).

 

3GPP and GSMA specifications envision the possibility of more, but do not e= ncompass (yet) communications such as tweets, social networking IM, commerc= ial website chat, and e-mail to name a few.

 

In the past I=92ve advocated that telephone numbers and (private) ENUM coul= d dramatically help improve communications application reachability.  = And really it isn=92t ENUM per se that offers such an opportunity so much a= s NAPTR, SRV, and A/AAAA DNS resource records.  And in that regard, a good old-fashioned domain name will work even better= than a telephone number.  And in fact could be used to discover telep= hone numbers in TEL/SIP URIs.  What I like about NAPTR in particular i= s the ability to use a domain name to discover multiple addresses and applications of interest for a given domain or host= with whom I would like to communicate in one or more ways.

 

The main MODERN problems we=92re going to keep coming back to are security = and scarcity.

 

With regard to security, very few of my children=92s generation have their = telephone number listed in a phone book and if you suggested they needed to= list their number they would most likely be annoyed or appalled (or ask, = =93what is a phone book?=94).  THEY want to control who is able to communicate with them, and one of the prime ways= they do that, whether they know it or not, is through obscurity.  Rob= o-dialers and worse are invading their privacy and destroying their ability= to remain anonymous and obscure yet available.

 

When I read about user agent assignments in MODERN, I immediately think of = Public ENUM (which failed and which Richard Shockey reminds us from time ti= me is =93dead=94).  I think the main problem was fear of SPIT (SPAM ov= er Internet Telephony).

 

So to me the key problems remaining to be solved in user agent assignments = of reachability information are:

 

1)&= nbsp;     auditing and recovery  &nb= sp;[the scarcity problem]

2)&= nbsp;     securely controlling access to = the reachability information   [the security problem]

 

I will paraphrase the suggestion made by Henning on the call today as, =93M= ODERN should acknowledge aportionment from a limited address space can act = as a form of containment for damage from abuse of that space.=94 

It=92s a pretty crude form of containment, but it does somewhat address the= problems at #1, but we can do better I think.

 

As acknowledged by 3GPP IMS technical specifications, single user assignmen= ts should include the concept of public addresses (best for applications wi= th SPAM filters), and private addresses for those entities or applications = permitted more secure access.

 

I suggest that public addresses should be nearly infinite with little restr= iction on their syntax such as are invidual domain names of the .name top-l= evel domain.

 

Private addresses should be discoverable from the public addresses insofar = as the discoverer has one or more key(s) permitting them access to that inf= ormation.  (This is similar to the idea that bad actors whom wish to u= se confidence to commit fraud and theft use a telephone number to place a call to someone and then using social en= gineering and pschological manipulation as a password, retrieve more valuab= le information such as credit card numbers.)

 

Discovery could be conducted using something like a NAPTR + OPT RR DNS = query using (MODERN?) application-specific logic and where the key(s) in th= e query were supplied in the OPT RR ala something like =93draft-kaplan-dnse= xt-enum-sip-source-ref-opt-code-00=94 but without the ENUM reverse decimal dot notation and instead using the public= individual domain name.  (Clearly, this isn=92t something you could d= o using your father=92s DNS.)

 

A key to one or more of the private addresses could be something as simple = as a 10-digit telephone number but really should be simply a password (and = of course potentially very long ugly passwords incorporating prime numbers = could be used too depending upon who is asking and what application they=92re asking for/from).  One o= r more subsets of private addresses could be reachable via one or more pass= words.

 

Some of the discoverable private =93address=94 information could be a perso= nal telephone number and a STIR public key certificate and the address of t= he certificate authority, for example.

 

Other kinds of discoverable private address information could include URIs = for Twitter, Facebook, e-mail, et cetera.

 

I believe what I=92ve described could be part of a MODERN solution framewor= k, but would not necessarily include primary assignment of an individual=92= s private telephone number (although it wouldn=92t prevent it either). = ; The logic offered today for porting could even be expanded to broker commercial service registration transactions wi= th providers such as CSPs and social networks.

 

There would necessarily be the usual domain name and password security issu= es, but domain names are not going away and they don=92t suffer from being = a finite address space heavily integrated into legacy PSTN databases (yet).=

 

 



This e-mail may contain Sprint proprietary information intended for the sol= e use of the recipient(s). Any use by others is prohibited. If you are not = the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies of = the message.
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting comments. Thank you Henning. I'll check out the presentation. Buried in my blather around how to use domain names as a starting place for= single sign-on management of communications contacts using MODERN protocol= tools was the comment that multiple passwords would be used to manage acce= ss to sets of private reachability addresses. i.e., I might permit someone= to find me on Tinder, but not permit them to know my telephone number. If we plan to give individuals the ability to make reachability assignments= , the protocol tools should support assignments being fully individualized. Pierce From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov] Sent: March 02, 2016 7:31 AM To: Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] ; Paul Kyzivat ; modern@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft A few quick comments: * You may find my IIT conference presentation relevant: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/papers/2015/2015-iit-identifiers.pdf * The notion of a universal identifier that then leads to communication ide= ntifiers like email addresses and phone numbers has a long history, with at= tempts like Plaxo and Brewster, as well as the more successful ones like Fa= cebook and LinkedIn. Given the conflicting objectives and human psychology,= this is not an easy problem to solve. (For example, apparently, asking you= r Tinder date for his or her SMS number is considered a significant step in= a relationship. The human protocol is a lot more complex than MODERN will = ever be...) * For scarce identifiers, there seem to be essentially two approaches, simi= lar to the spectrum management problem: (1) administrative (regulatory, etc.): make people file reports, measure ut= ilization, threaten punishment or loss of access, etc. (2) financial: make it economically inefficient to abuse these resources (s= pectrum fee proposals, spectrum auctions, BitCoin mining, domain name fees,= etc.) My sense is that the emphasis in the public policy and economics community = has moved from (1) to (2), but that the initial "free market" enthusiasm is= now being tempered a bit by the operational experiences, including market = failures, rent seeking, etc. One interesting development is the idea of funding public goods such as sta= ndards or research through such fees. (I believe ISOC gets a large part of = their budget through the .org registry, and in turn funds the IETF.) I don't know if that fully addresses your note, but I'm certainly straying = a bit from the core MODERN mission. Henning ________________________________ From: Modern > on b= ehalf of Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] > Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 4:54 PM To: Paul Kyzivat; modern@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft I'm guilty of writing something I myself don't like to receive- a very long= e-mail. For those with little patience for such things, TLDR won't hurt m= y feelings. "The key feature of phone numbers is that there is a broadly interoperable = infrastructure for communicating between things identified by those numbers= ." - P. Kyzivat First, I'll simply agree, but emphasize the key word is "communicating" and= that there is a fairly limited set of applications establishing communicat= ion using only a telephone number as an address. For the most part communication established using a telephone number is voi= ce calls and text messages (occasinally accompanied by small pictures). 3GPP and GSMA specifications envision the possibility of more, but do not e= ncompass (yet) communications such as tweets, social networking IM, commerc= ial website chat, and e-mail to name a few. In the past I've advocated that telephone numbers and (private) ENUM could = dramatically help improve communications application reachability. And rea= lly it isn't ENUM per se that offers such an opportunity so much as NAPTR, = SRV, and A/AAAA DNS resource records. And in that regard, a good old-fashi= oned domain name will work even better than a telephone number. And in fac= t could be used to discover telephone numbers in TEL/SIP URIs. What I like= about NAPTR in particular is the ability to use a domain name to discover = multiple addresses and applications of interest for a given domain or host = with whom I would like to communicate in one or more ways. The main MODERN problems we're going to keep coming back to are security an= d scarcity. With regard to security, very few of my children's generation have their te= lephone number listed in a phone book and if you suggested they needed to l= ist their number they would most likely be annoyed or appalled (or ask, "wh= at is a phone book?"). THEY want to control who is able to communicate wit= h them, and one of the prime ways they do that, whether they know it or not= , is through obscurity. Robo-dialers and worse are invading their privacy = and destroying their ability to remain anonymous and obscure yet available. When I read about user agent assignments in MODERN, I immediately think of = Public ENUM (which failed and which Richard Shockey reminds us from time ti= me is "dead"). I think the main problem was fear of SPIT (SPAM over Intern= et Telephony). So to me the key problems remaining to be solved in user agent assignments = of reachability information are: 1) auditing and recovery [the scarcity problem] 2) securely controlling access to the reachability information [the = security problem] I will paraphrase the suggestion made by Henning on the call today as, "MOD= ERN should acknowledge aportionment from a limited address space can act as= a form of containment for damage from abuse of that space." It's a pretty crude form of containment, but it does somewhat address the p= roblems at #1, but we can do better I think. As acknowledged by 3GPP IMS technical specifications, single user assignmen= ts should include the concept of public addresses (best for applications wi= th SPAM filters), and private addresses for those entities or applications = permitted more secure access. I suggest that public addresses should be nearly infinite with little restr= iction on their syntax such as are invidual domain names of the .name top-l= evel domain. Private addresses should be discoverable from the public addresses insofar = as the discoverer has one or more key(s) permitting them access to that inf= ormation. (This is similar to the idea that bad actors whom wish to use co= nfidence to commit fraud and theft use a telephone number to place a call t= o someone and then using social engineering and pschological manipulation a= s a password, retrieve more valuable information such as credit card number= s.) Discovery could be conducted using something like a NAPTR + OPT RR DNS quer= y using (MODERN?) application-specific logic and where the key(s) in the qu= ery were supplied in the OPT RR ala something like "draft-kaplan-dnsext-enu= m-sip-source-ref-opt-code-00" but without the ENUM reverse decimal dot nota= tion and instead using the public individual domain name. (Clearly, this i= sn't something you could do using your father's DNS.) A key to one or more of the private addresses could be something as simple = as a 10-digit telephone number but really should be simply a password (and = of course potentially very long ugly passwords incorporating prime numbers = could be used too depending upon who is asking and what application they're= asking for/from). One or more subsets of private addresses could be reach= able via one or more passwords. Some of the discoverable private "address" information could be a personal = telephone number and a STIR public key certificate and the address of the c= ertificate authority, for example. Other kinds of discoverable private address information could include URIs = for Twitter, Facebook, e-mail, et cetera. I believe what I've described could be part of a MODERN solution framework,= but would not necessarily include primary assignment of an individual's pr= ivate telephone number (although it wouldn't prevent it either). The logic= offered today for porting could even be expanded to broker commercial serv= ice registration transactions with providers such as CSPs and social networ= ks. There would necessarily be the usual domain name and password security issu= es, but domain names are not going away and they don't suffer from being a = finite address space heavily integrated into legacy PSTN databases (yet). ________________________________ This e-mail may contain Sprint proprietary information intended for the sol= e use of the recipient(s). Any use by others is prohibited. If you are not = the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies of = the message. ________________________________ This e-mail may contain Sprint proprietary information intended for the sol= e use of the recipient(s). Any use by others is prohibited. If you are not = the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies of = the message. --_000_abdf97ffd82948ecb5661c3efffd01a3PLSWE13M08adsprintcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Interesting comments.  Thank you H= enning.  I’ll check out the presentation.

 

Buried in my blather around how to use = domain names as a starting place for single sign-on management of communica= tions contacts using MODERN protocol tools was the comment that multiple passwords would be used to manage access to sets= of private reachability addresses.  i.e., I might permit someone to f= ind me on Tinder, but not permit them to know my telephone number.

 

If we plan to give individuals the abil= ity to make reachability assignments, the protocol tools should support ass= ignments being fully individualized.

 

Pierce

From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:He= nning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov]
Sent: March 02, 2016 7:31 AM
To: Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>; Paul Ky= zivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>; modern@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft

 

A few quick comments:

 

* You may find my IIT conference presentation rel= evant:

 

http://www.cs.c= olumbia.edu/~hgs/papers/2015/2015-iit-identifiers.pdf=

 

* The notion of a universal identifier that then = leads to communication identifiers like email addresses and phone numbers h= as a long history, with attempts like Plaxo and Brewster, as well as the more successful ones like Facebook and LinkedIn. = Given the conflicting objectives and human psychology, this is not an easy = problem to solve. (For example, apparently, asking your Tinder date for his= or her SMS number is considered a significant step in a relationship. The human protocol is a lot more com= plex than MODERN will ever be...)

 

* For scarce identifiers, there seem to be essent= ially two approaches, similar to the spectrum management problem:

 

(1) administrative (regulatory, etc.): make peopl= e file reports, measure utilization, threaten punishment or loss of access,= etc.

 

(2) financial: make it economically inefficient t= o abuse these resources (spectrum fee proposals, spectrum auctions, Bi= tCoin mining, domain name fees, etc.)

 

My sense is that the emphasis= in the public policy and economics community has moved from (1) to (2), bu= t that the initial "free market" enthusiasm is now being tempered a bit by the operational experiences, including market fail= ures, rent seeking, etc.

 

One interesting development i= s the idea of funding public goods such as standards or research throu= gh such fees. (I believe ISOC gets a large part of their budget through the .org registry, and in turn funds the IETF.)<= /span>

 

I don't know if that fully ad= dresses your note, but I'm certainly straying a bit from the core MODERN mi= ssion.

 

Henning<= o:p>

From: Modern <= modern-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 4:54 PM
To: Paul Kyzivat; modern@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft

 

I’m guilty of writing some= thing I myself don’t like to receive- a very long e-mail.  For t= hose with little patience for such things, TLDR won’t hurt my feeling= s.

 

“The key feature of phone = numbers is that there is a broadly interoperable infrastructure for communi= cating between things identified by those numbers.” – P. Kyzivat

 

First, I’ll simply agree, = but emphasize the key word is “communicating” and that there is= a fairly limited set of applications establishing communication using only a telephone number as an address.

 

For the most part communication = established using a telephone number is voice calls and text messages (occa= sinally accompanied by small pictures).

 

3GPP and GSMA specifications env= ision the possibility of more, but do not encompass (yet) communications su= ch as tweets, social networking IM, commercial website chat, and e-mail to name a few.

 

In the past I’ve advocated= that telephone numbers and (private) ENUM could dramatically help improve = communications application reachability.  And really it isn’t ENUM per se that offers such an opportunity so much as NAPT= R, SRV, and A/AAAA DNS resource records.  And in that regard, a good o= ld-fashioned domain name will work even better than a telephone number.&nbs= p; And in fact could be used to discover telephone numbers in TEL/SIP URIs.  What I like about NAPTR in particular is th= e ability to use a domain name to discover multiple addresses and applicati= ons of interest for a given domain or host with whom I would like to commun= icate in one or more ways.

 

The main MODERN problems we̵= 7;re going to keep coming back to are security and scarcity.

 

With regard to security, very fe= w of my children’s generation have their telephone number listed in a= phone book and if you suggested they needed to list their number they would most likely be annoyed or appalled (or ask, “= ;what is a phone book?”).  THEY want to control who is able to c= ommunicate with them, and one of the prime ways they do that, whether they = know it or not, is through obscurity.  Robo-dialers and worse are invading their privacy and destroying their ability to remai= n anonymous and obscure yet available.

 

When I read about user agent ass= ignments in MODERN, I immediately think of Public ENUM (which failed and wh= ich Richard Shockey reminds us from time time is “dead”).  I think the main problem was fear of SPIT (S= PAM over Internet Telephony).

 

So to me the key problems remain= ing to be solved in user agent assignments of reachability information are:=

 

1)      auditing and recovery   [the scarcity problem= ]

2)      securely controlling access to the reachability informa= tion   [the security problem]

 

I will paraphrase the suggestion= made by Henning on the call today as, “MODERN should acknowledge apo= rtionment from a limited address space can act as a form of containment for damage from abuse of that space.” 

It’s a pretty crude form o= f containment, but it does somewhat address the problems at #1, but we can = do better I think.

 

As acknowledged by 3GPP IMS tech= nical specifications, single user assignments should include the concept of= public addresses (best for applications with SPAM filters), and private addresses for those entities or applications pe= rmitted more secure access.

 

I suggest that public addresses = should be nearly infinite with little restriction on their syntax such as a= re invidual domain names of the .name top-level domain.

 

Private addresses should be disc= overable from the public addresses insofar as the discoverer has one or mor= e key(s) permitting them access to that information.  (This is similar to the idea that bad actors whom wish to use confidence t= o commit fraud and theft use a telephone number to place a call to someone = and then using social engineering and pschological manipulation as a passwo= rd, retrieve more valuable information such as credit card numbers.)

 

Discovery could be conducted usi= ng something like a NAPTR + OPT RR DNS query using (MODERN?) applicatio= n-specific logic and where the key(s) in the query were supplied in the OPT RR ala something like “draft-kaplan-dnsext-= enum-sip-source-ref-opt-code-00” but without the ENUM reverse decimal= dot notation and instead using the public individual domain name.  (C= learly, this isn’t something you could do using your father’s DNS.)

 

A key to one or more of the priv= ate addresses could be something as simple as a 10-digit telephone number b= ut really should be simply a password (and of course potentially very long ugly passwords incorporating prime numbers co= uld be used too depending upon who is asking and what application they̵= 7;re asking for/from).  One or more subsets of private addresses could= be reachable via one or more passwords.

 

Some of the discoverable private= “address” information could be a personal telephone number and= a STIR public key certificate and the address of the certificate authority, for example.

 

Other kinds of discoverable priv= ate address information could include URIs for Twitter, Facebook, e-mail, e= t cetera.

 

I believe what I’ve descri= bed could be part of a MODERN solution framework, but would not necessarily= include primary assignment of an individual’s private telephone number (although it wouldn’t prevent it either).  The= logic offered today for porting could even be expanded to broker commercia= l service registration transactions with providers such as CSPs and social = networks.

 

There would necessarily be the u= sual domain name and password security issues, but domain names are not goi= ng away and they don’t suffer from being a finite address space heavily integrated into legacy PSTN databases (yet).

 

 

 


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 --_000_abdf97ffd82948ecb5661c3efffd01a3PLSWE13M08adsprintcom_-- From nobody Wed Mar 2 07:58:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFDB51ACE8A for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2016 07:58:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.206 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.206 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CRHSDU-09q29 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2016 07:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from DC-IP-1.fcc.gov (dc-ip-1.fcc.gov [192.104.54.97]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165D41ACDF7 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2016 07:58:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fccoffice.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-fcc-gov; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=9NH0JBb8gO0RaxcXYhHdNQSGwBTyMyqknBrxOLmICak=; b=LmzByPUMf1YUtBOeaxbX6aEQ4ygSFGtx5lNmVT/4n1K6ZD+jMVHonWg/aOJqKMLIOnnLs0kAMrUe5KZs2jp5h+7I5TOTugYD1eWR1/ln99kzzFBLu3ilL+TVU11sWdKvgr+zDpqlq4s8Hrdxt1fNATTYd7VQwSzgXK+hEo9bzc8= From: Henning Schulzrinne To: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" , Paul Kyzivat , "modern@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Thread-Index: AQHRb2pm7PDoPWgGMEWIEhdbfE2ttZ88e5hwgABbCQCAAAB2AIAAA5cAgAAUeeCAAAWi8P//30YAgAAzgrCAAFplAIAGDt2AgAAmxACAACIogIABMcqAgAA/mICAAQDe4YAAJRwAgAAH4DA= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 15:58:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <00cd01d16fdb$1a128f80$4e37ae80$@ch> <68346e41454447f1b75d61da4c51821b@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <3af9e40382f34867bd866707fc4b1ce9@PLSWE13M01.ad.sprint.com> <0dd72becae6d4d9b8ea4bccc4d9f9602@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56CF87AE.6070801@alum.mit.edu> <2fd8adae247f4e9eaa9ae45eafcd7f82@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> <56D4BD28.4070908@alum.mit.edu> <4A92E814-530D-430A-A457-48BE8DDB44AE@shockey.us> <56D5DA53.7090408@alum.mit.edu>, <031ef212cfea4900b2287261d0de3c31@PLSWE13M08.ad.sprint.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: sprint.com; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR09MB0636; H:CY1PR09MB0634.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY1PR09MB0634D85DC47D85679ABAEA10EABC0CY1PR09MB0634namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Mar 2016 15:58:35.8502 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72970aed-3669-4ca8-b960-dd016bc72973 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR09MB0636 X-OriginatorOrg: fcc.gov Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 15:58:43 -0000 --_000_CY1PR09MB0634D85DC47D85679ABAEA10EABC0CY1PR09MB0634namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Without claiming any first-hand experience, my sense is that handing the pe= rson you met in the bar a password to access your phone number may limit yo= ur romantic prospects unless the bar happens to be next to an IETF (or RSA = conference) meeting. Access to "whois-like" information should indeed be controllable by users a= s that could greatly improve CNAM-style services and third-party "this is a= good guy/business" validation. Henning From: Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] [mailto:Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:27 AM To: Henning Schulzrinne ; Paul Kyzivat ; modern@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Interesting comments. Thank you Henning. I'll check out the presentation. Buried in my blather around how to use domain names as a starting place for= single sign-on management of communications contacts using MODERN protocol= tools was the comment that multiple passwords would be used to manage acce= ss to sets of private reachability addresses. i.e., I might permit someone= to find me on Tinder, but not permit them to know my telephone number. If we plan to give individuals the ability to make reachability assignments= , the protocol tools should support assignments being fully individualized. Pierce --_000_CY1PR09MB0634D85DC47D85679ABAEA10EABC0CY1PR09MB0634namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Without claiming any first-hand exper= ience, my sense is that handing the person you met in the bar a password to= access your phone number may limit your romantic prospects unless the bar happens to be next to an IETF (or RSA conference)= meeting.

 

Access to “whois-like” in= formation should indeed be controllable by users as that could greatly impr= ove CNAM-style services and third-party “this is a good guy/business&= #8221; validation.

 

Henning

 

From: Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] [mailto= :Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:27 AM
To: Henning Schulzrinne <Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov>; Paul Ky= zivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>; modern@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft

 

Interesting comments.  Thank you H= enning.  I’ll check out the presentation.

 

Buried in my blather around how to use = domain names as a starting place for single sign-on management of communica= tions contacts using MODERN protocol tools was the comment that multiple passwords would be used to manage access to sets= of private reachability addresses.  i.e., I might permit someone to f= ind me on Tinder, but not permit them to know my telephone number.

 

If we plan to give individuals the abil= ity to make reachability assignments, the protocol tools should support ass= ignments being fully individualized.

 

Pierce

 

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23:/+yiOQvRY/YMoEXv51ts2GLY3DMFlpMWiJ7/n7qNe02eL121j7Eqm9++C1/X4Otd65aK0foCMtWVsDK0TtXabzVcjy9MFArzDhUBpP39/4tjzpwurXbKV7rJCQGQOe5MJa/zNXgIIbhEa1XK4h86Ge7XcWAzQrzZL7Ox/7x5xp8/DhoKBstJhe/YZzcPfTHi X-OriginatorOrg: sprint.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 16:31:34 -0000 --_000_36da5e4d2158498688885d85a952ad43PLSWE13M08adsprintcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LOL. Agree. Probably easier just to give them your telephone number. And, I suspect a personal telephone number might be a convenient password f= or folks you really feel you can trust - otherwise maybe they only get the = direct-to-voice-mailbox-for-SPAM telephone number (if you chose to use a te= lephone number as an example password to some set of MODERN reachability in= fo. I think there is little question individuals will prefer to manage set= s and layers of trustworthiness. From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov] Sent: March 02, 2016 9:59 AM To: Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] ; Paul Kyzivat ; modern@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Without claiming any first-hand experience, my sense is that handing the pe= rson you met in the bar a password to access your phone number may limit yo= ur romantic prospects unless the bar happens to be next to an IETF (or RSA = conference) meeting. Access to "whois-like" information should indeed be controllable by users a= s that could greatly improve CNAM-style services and third-party "this is a= good guy/business" validation. Henning From: Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] [mailto:Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:27 AM To: Henning Schulzrinne >; Paul Kyzivat >; modern@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case Draft Interesting comments. Thank you Henning. I'll check out the presentation. Buried in my blather around how to use domain names as a starting place for= single sign-on management of communications contacts using MODERN protocol= tools was the comment that multiple passwords would be used to manage acce= ss to sets of private reachability addresses. i.e., I might permit someone= to find me on Tinder, but not permit them to know my telephone number. If we plan to give individuals the ability to make reachability assignments= , the protocol tools should support assignments being fully individualized. Pierce ________________________________ This e-mail may contain Sprint proprietary information intended for the sol= e use of the recipient(s). Any use by others is prohibited. If you are not = the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies of = the message. --_000_36da5e4d2158498688885d85a952ad43PLSWE13M08adsprintcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

LOL.  Agree.  Probably easier= just to give them your telephone number.

 

And, I suspect a personal telephone number might be a convenient password for = folks you really feel you can trust – otherwise maybe they only get t= he direct-to-voice-mailbox-for-SPAM telephone number (if you cho= se to use a telephone number as an example password to some set of MODERN r= eachability info.  I think there is little question individuals will p= refer to manage sets and layers of trustworthiness.

 

 

From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:He= nning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov]
Sent: March 02, 2016 9:59 AM
To: Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>; Paul Ky= zivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>; modern@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft

 

Without claiming any first-hand exper= ience, my sense is that handing the person you met in the bar a password to= access your phone number may limit your romantic prospects unless the bar happens to be next to an IETF (or RSA conference)= meeting.

 

Access to “whois-like” in= formation should indeed be controllable by users as that could greatly impr= ove CNAM-style services and third-party “this is a good guy/business&= #8221; validation.

 

Henning

 

From: Gorman, Pierce A [CTO] [mailto:Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:27 AM
To: Henning Schulzrinne <Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov>; Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>; modern@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Modern] Nationwide Number Portability MODERN Use Case = Draft

 

Interesting comments.  Thank you H= enning.  I’ll check out the presentation.

 

Buried in my blather around how to use = domain names as a starting place for single sign-on management of communica= tions contacts using MODERN protocol tools was the comment that multiple passwords would be used to manage access to sets= of private reachability addresses.  i.e., I might permit someone to f= ind me on Tinder, but not permit them to know my telephone number.

 

If we plan to give individuals the abil= ity to make reachability assignments, the protocol tools should support ass= ignments being fully individualized.

 

Pierce

 



This e-mail may contain Sprint proprietary information intended for the sol= e use of the recipient(s). Any use by others is prohibited. If you are not = the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies of = the message.
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<20160311230544.15028.98183.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:05:44 -0800 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 07:00:41 -0800 Cc: modern@ietf.org, alissa@cooperw.in Subject: [Modern] modern - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 95 X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 23:05:44 -0000 Dear Steve Donovan, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. modern Session 1 (1:30:00) Thursday, Afternoon Session III 1730-1930 Room Name: Quebracho A size: 75 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area Session Requester: Steve Donovan Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 50 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: dime perc stir webpush dispatch Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Mar 23 12:37:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: modern@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5297F12D84A for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 12:37:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VDi-rD3ZUZue for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 12:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-0018ba01.pphosted.com (mx0a-0018ba01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01D3712D7F4 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 12:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0078664.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-0018ba01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.11/8.16.0.11) with SMTP id u2NJZ2La025226 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 15:37:13 -0400 Received: from stntexhc12.cis.neustar.com ([156.154.17.216]) by mx0a-0018ba01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 21s1dtduns-12 (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 15:37:13 -0400 Received: from STNTEXMB11.cis.neustar.com ([169.254.1.64]) by stntexhc12.cis.neustar.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0279.002; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 15:35:51 -0400 From: "McGarry, Tom" To: Modern List Thread-Topic: Draft MODERN Agenda Posted Thread-Index: AQHRhTs0MLPaU9Z+JUelI76JPMWOiw== Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 19:35:50 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.2.130206 x-originating-ip: [10.33.204.214] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D318685335CE8tommcgarryneustarbiz_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-03-23_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1601100000 definitions=main-1603230299 Archived-At: Subject: [Modern] Draft MODERN Agenda Posted X-BeenThere: modern@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers non-WG discussion list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 19:37:15 -0000 --_000_D318685335CE8tommcgarryneustarbiz_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Draft agenda * 5m, Administrative, e.g., scribe, etc. - Chairs * 45m, draft-peterson-modern-problems-04 =96 Jon Peterson * 25m, NNP actor interactions =96 Tom McGarry * 15m, DRiP Path Forward =96 Chris Wendt * 20m, Work Plan =96 Chairs * 10m, Discussion =96 all --_000_D318685335CE8tommcgarryneustarbiz_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Draft agenda
  • 5m, Administrative, e.g., scribe, etc. - Chairs 
  • 45m, draf= t-peterson-modern-problems-04 =96 Jon Peterson
  • 25m, NNP actor inter= actions =96 Tom McGarry
  • 15m, DRiP Path Forward =96 Chris Wendt
    • =
  • 20m, Work Plan =96 Chairs
  • 10m, Discussion =96 all


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