From nobody Thu Oct 3 13:55:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E5121200B7; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 13:18:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Barry Leiba via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.104.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Barry Leiba Message-ID: <157013392463.16231.13761068623463791174.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 13:18:44 -0700 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 13:55:41 -0700 Subject: [Mops] Barry Leiba's Block on charter-ietf-mops-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 20:18:45 -0000 Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-mops-00-00: Block When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BLOCK: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In general, I'm not terribly happy with how this charter lays out specific work items (or doesn't). It's very vague, and then when I look to the milestones I get more of an understanding. On the one hand, this is OK, because we want this to be flexible, as a standing working group. On the other hand, I would feel better with being somewhat more specific. And I realize that this isn't terribly actionable, so I'm asking that we think about this, and I won't hold this "block" beyond our doing some reasonable consideration. I do have two specific blocking comments, both of which should be easy to sort out: The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that the existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are developed in sympathy with the Internet’s core protocols and design. This sounds like a lot of fuzz without real substance. Let’s try to tease out what its really saying and word it more accessibly. At some level this seems to be saying that the premise of MOPS is that what the IETF does is good. I’m sure there’s more meant here than that, but I don’t understand what. Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working Group only if there is a substantial expression of interest from the community and if the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF. And only with a re-chartering, yes? I don’t think we want the working group to be able to pick up *any* related work it chooses, just because it doesn’t fit elsewhere, right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- And then there are a number of editorial things: MOPS’ focus is on identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are challenged I suggest avoiding the issue of how to make a possessive of “MOPS” (I would use “MOPS’s”) by saying “The focus of MOPS is….” MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices, existing and proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operation of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the global Internet, inter-domain and single domain networking. Because the second list item has commas in it, you need the main list to use semicolons. Otherwise it’s impossible to be sure one has parsed it accurately. NEW MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing and proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operation of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the global Internet; and inter-domain and single-domain networking. END In this case, media is considered to include “In this case” seems odd here. I think you mean, “In the context of this charter,” or something like that. MOPS acts as a clearinghouse to identify appropriate venues for further protocol development, where necessary. I’d rather be more direct in how this is worded (adjust as needed): NEW Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate venues for their development. END Bullet 3 needs a period at the end. And what “resulting innovations” are we talking about here? It sounds like more fuzz, so can we be more specific? including global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations. Earlier, you used “single-domain”, and here you use “within-domain”; please be consistent. There must be a continuous expression of interest for the Working Group to work on a particular work item. I think you mean “continuing”. 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ICAgICBpbmNsdWRpbmcgZ2xvYmFsIEludGVybmV0LCBpbnRlci1kb21haW4gYW5kIHdpdGhpbi1k b21haW4gb3BlcmF0aW9ucy4NCiAgICANCiAgICBFYXJsaWVyLCB5b3UgdXNlZCDigJxzaW5nbGUt ZG9tYWlu4oCdLCBhbmQgaGVyZSB5b3UgdXNlIOKAnHdpdGhpbi1kb21haW7igJ07IHBsZWFzZSBi ZQ0KICAgIGNvbnNpc3RlbnQuDQogICAgDQogICAgICAgVGhlcmUgbXVzdCBiZSBhIGNvbnRpbnVv dXMgZXhwcmVzc2lvbiBvZiBpbnRlcmVzdCBmb3IgdGhlIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXAgdG8NCiAgICAg ICB3b3JrIG9uIGEgcGFydGljdWxhciB3b3JrIGl0ZW0uDQogICAgDQogICAgSSB0aGluayB5b3Ug bWVhbiDigJxjb250aW51aW5n4oCdLg0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KDQo= From nobody Fri Oct 4 10:00:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 790D11200E5; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 10:00:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, 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potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com ([100.124.56.53]) with mapi id 15.01.0669.032; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 11:00:06 -0600 From: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" CC: Barry Leiba , The IESG , "mops-chairs@ietf.org" , "mops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Mops] Barry Leiba's Block on charter-ietf-mops-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHVeq/9/Zh4lIhWs0Sm6gaUUkww7KdKtPhM Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 17:00:06 +0000 Message-ID: <12C1E132-07FF-4ACD-9842-1ACCD5A423FF@nbcuni.com> References: <157013392463.16231.13761068623463791174.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>, <9FD42763-117F-4955-A83E-0AB370283680@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9FD42763-117F-4955-A83E-0AB370283680@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-exclaimer-md-config: 47edc00f-f2d6-45ef-be83-8a353bd47e45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,1.0.8 definitions=2019-10-04_09:2019-10-03,2019-10-04 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1011 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1910040146 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Barry Leiba's Block on charter-ietf-mops-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 17:00:18 -0000 V2lsbCBkby4gRXhwZWN0IGFuIHVwZGF0ZSBlYXJseSBuZXh0IHdlZWsuDQoNCkdsZW5uIA0KDQo+ IE9uIE9jdCA0LCAyMDE5LCBhdCA1OjMzIEFNLCBFcmljIFZ5bmNrZSAoZXZ5bmNrZSkgPGV2eW5j 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[64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.4); Mon, 07 Oct 2019 20:17:25 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Descriptive-Versed: 531939a158f99ea6_1570479444993_1841055578 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1570479444992:3573172615 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1570479444992 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3441F80A1E; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:17:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=thinkingcat.com; h=from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=thinkingcat.com; bh=S qPfYkxFoziO1cFLRUg2w2xoUbE=; b=QgVDVv110xTqjo+AFIy/+88ShcyB42Dw/ cxPeYcbBdAb9z3OOGM3J+bhRf1EkmemZ6My/kFasSvQe+fWA6fVZJihbu1f1YR+F ltr/+bztJKlUCFCo2mC15tIseGFigz5rxFspuFWmTfHEl+ayeAeL+5gIWxXz9/J/ rDPUUcpmZM= Received: from [192.168.1.57] (vtelinet-216-66-102-83.vermontel.net [216.66.102.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ldaigle@thinkingcat.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C504D80A1C; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:17:15 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a26 From: "Leslie Daigle" To: "Eric Vyncke" , "Barry Leiba" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 16:17:13 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: <6D8C43CD-5239-4AEB-8683-1206CFC42BA8@thinkingcat.com> In-Reply-To: <9FD42763-117F-4955-A83E-0AB370283680@cisco.com> References: <157013392463.16231.13761068623463791174.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9FD42763-117F-4955-A83E-0AB370283680@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_324AE8F3-2FA8-4DD0-A5C9-88598CEC2FA2_=" X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrheejgddufeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephffvufffoffkjghfgggtgfesrgekmherredtjeenucfhrhhomhepfdfnvghslhhivgcuffgrihhglhgvfdcuoehluggrihhglhgvsehthhhinhhkihhnghgtrghtrdgtohhmqeenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecukfhppedvudeirdeiiedruddtvddrkeefnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdphhgvlhhopegludelvddrudeikedruddrheejngdpihhnvghtpedvudeirdeiiedruddtvddrkeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpedfnfgvshhlihgvucffrghighhlvgdfuceolhgurghighhlvgesthhhihhnkhhinhhgtggrthdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomheplhgurghighhlvgesthhhihhnkhhinhhgtggrthdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtoheplhgurghighhlvgesthhhihhnkhhinhhgtggrthdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Barry Leiba's Block on charter-ietf-mops-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 20:17:30 -0000 --=_MailMate_324AE8F3-2FA8-4DD0-A5C9-88598CEC2FA2_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (Dropping the IESG mailing list for now; please advise or re-add if=20 appropriate) Thanks for the review and comments, Barry. I=E2=80=99ve updated the draf= t=20 charter text based on the editorial comments you supplied, and that=E2=80= =99s=20 copied below. That text does not reflect changes to address the=20 blocking comments =E2=80=94 I have some suggestions, which are next. [Barry wrote:] > I do have two specific blocking comments, both of which should be=20 > easy to sort > out: > > The premise of MOPS is that continued development of=20 > Internet-using > technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure=20 > that the > existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are=20 > developed in > sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. > > This sounds like a lot of fuzz without real substance. Let=E2=80=99= s=20 > try to tease out > what its really saying and word it more accessibly. At some level=20 > this seems > to be saying that the premise of MOPS is that what the IETF does=20 > is good. I=E2=80=99m > sure there=E2=80=99s more meant here than that, but I don=E2=80=99t= understand=20 > what. This para was meant to be a conclusion of =E2=80=9Cwhat we=E2=80=99ll do=E2= =80=9D for the=20 issues laid out in the preceding 2 paragraphs. So, let=E2=80=99s look at= all=20 three for context: [First three paragraphs of the draft charter:] > Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading=20 > to > significant technology development across industries not traditionally=20 > thought > of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as=20 > considerable > quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS=20 > is on > identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are=20 > challenged by > these updated requirements. > > MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing=20 > and > proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and=20 > operation > of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the=20 > global > Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the=20 > context of this working group, media is considered to include the=20 > transport of video, audio, objects and any combination thereof,=20 > possibly non-sequentially. The scope is media and media protocols=E2=80= =99=20 > interactions with the network, but not the technologies of control=20 > protocols or media formats. > > PROBLEM PARA =E2=80=94 TO BE REWRITTEN > The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using > technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that=20 > the > existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are developed=20 > in sympathy > with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. MOPS acts as a= =20 > clearinghouse to > identify appropriate venues for further protocol development, where=20 > necessary. > BARRY SUGGESTS REPLACING LAST SENTENCE: Where new protocols are=20 > needed, MOPS will identify appropriate venues for > their development. Here=E2=80=99s a proposed rewrite of the paragraph: NEW: MOPS provides a venue for both video industry and Internet engineering=20 experts to engage in discussion of video technology=E2=80=99s requirement= s of=20 networking standards, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technology=20 in video. Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate=20 venues for their development. [Barry wrote:] > Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working=20 > Group only > if there is a substantial expression of interest from the community=20 > and if > the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF. > > And only with a re-chartering, yes? I don=E2=80=99t think we want the=20 > working group to > be able to pick up *any* related work it chooses, just because it=20 > doesn=E2=80=99t fit > elsewhere, right? Glenn & I conferred, and agreed that this one is tricky to get right as=20 it's easy to not fully include the words in the right Order and=20 emphasis. " Future work items within this scope" means that when=20 things anything that needs rechartering came along, it would absolutely=20 go through that exercise, with the intent that MOPS wouldn't stray from=20 its charter. We suggest striking the paragraph as it=E2=80=99s not needed. The other= =20 parts of the charter already layout what MOPS will work on, and Clearly=20 going outside of those lines would involve a recharter. Leslie. Full updated charter (modulo the blocking comment paragraphs needing=20 updating): Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading=20 to significant technology development across industries not traditionally=20 thought of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as=20 considerable quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS=20 is on identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are=20 challenged by these updated requirements. MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing=20 and proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and=20 operation of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the=20 global Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context=20 of this working group, media is considered to include the transport of=20 video, audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially.=20 The scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the network= , but=20 not the technologies of control protocols or media formats. PROBLEM PARA =E2=80=94 TO BE REWRITTEN The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that=20 the existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are developed=20 in sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. MOPS acts as a=20 clearinghouse to identify appropriate venues for further protocol development, where=20 necessary. BARRY SUGGESTS REPLACING LAST SENTENCE: Where new protocols are=20 needed, MOPS will identify appropriate venues for their development. The goals of MOPS include documenting existing protocol and operational=20 issues with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential=20 IETF work. To those ends, MOPS will: 1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols. 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify=20 operational issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine=20 solutions or workarounds to those issues. 3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and opportunities=20 in media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and=20 technologies developed outside the IETF. 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and delivery. 5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media=20 technologies in the global Internet. These activities should document media operational experience, including=20 global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations. Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or=20 technologies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or=20 Sub-IP Protocols) are the primary responsibility of the groups or areas=20 responsible for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS Working Group may provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and cooperate with those areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and deployment=20 problems. PROBLEM PARA TO BE REWORKED Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working Group=20 only if there is a substantial expression of interest from the community and=20 if the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF. There must be a continuing expression of interest for the Working Group=20 to work on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest in=20 the Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of=20 Working Group items. On 4 Oct 2019, at 8:33, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > Barry > > Thank for your review and your valuable comments as always. > > You are right that it is not so easy to have a charter for a "standing=20 > working group" which is the first (?) attempt by the IETF community to=20 > have something resembling to a "special interest group". > > On your two specific BLOCKs, I will let the current chairs to rewrite=20 > your first concern and indeed adding new work items will require a=20 > re-charter in the current state of the IETF. So, let's be clear on it=20 > for now (and initiate some works on "special interest groups") > > Thank you also for your comments/nits: they will improve the text. > > Leslie and Glen, may I suggest to update accordingly the draft charter=20 > ? And if the MOPS list agrees with it, then upload it ? (if you do not=20 > have the permission, then simply send it to me) > > Regards, > > -=C3=A9ric > > =EF=BB=BFOn 03/10/2019, 22:19, "iesg on behalf of Barry Leiba via=20 > Datatracker" =20 > wrote: > > Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-mops-00-00: Block > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to=20 > all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut=20 > this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found=20 > here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > BLOCK: > -------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > > In general, I'm not terribly happy with how this charter lays out=20 > specific work > items (or doesn't). It's very vague, and then when I look to the=20 > milestones I > get more of an understanding. On the one hand, this is OK,=20 > because we want > this to be flexible, as a standing working group. On the other=20 > hand, I would > feel better with being somewhat more specific. And I realize that=20 > this isn't > terribly actionable, so I'm asking that we think about this, and I=20 > won't hold > this "block" beyond our doing some reasonable consideration. > > I do have two specific blocking comments, both of which should be=20 > easy to sort > out: > > The premise of MOPS is that continued development of=20 > Internet-using > technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure=20 > that the > existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are=20 > developed in > sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. > > This sounds like a lot of fuzz without real substance. Let=E2=80=99= s=20 > try to tease out > what its really saying and word it more accessibly. At some level=20 > this seems > to be saying that the premise of MOPS is that what the IETF does=20 > is good. I=E2=80=99m > sure there=E2=80=99s more meant here than that, but I don=E2=80=99t= understand=20 > what. > > Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the=20 > Working Group only > if there is a substantial expression of interest from the=20 > community and if > the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF. > > And only with a re-chartering, yes? I don=E2=80=99t think we want = the=20 > working group to > be able to pick up *any* related work it chooses, just because it=20 > doesn=E2=80=99t fit > elsewhere, right? > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > COMMENT: > -------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > > And then there are a number of editorial things: > > MOPS=E2=80=99 focus is on > identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are=20 > challenged > > I suggest avoiding the issue of how to make a possessive of=20 > =E2=80=9CMOPS=E2=80=9D (I would use > =E2=80=9CMOPS=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D) by saying =E2=80=9CThe focus of M= OPS is=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D > > MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices,=20 > existing and > proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering,=20 > and operation > of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in=20 > the global > Internet, inter-domain and single domain networking. > > Because the second list item has commas in it, you need the main=20 > list to use > semicolons. Otherwise it=E2=80=99s impossible to be sure one has p= arsed=20 > it accurately. > > NEW > MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices;=20 > existing and > proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering,=20 > and operation > of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in=20 > the global > Internet; and inter-domain and single-domain networking. > END > > In this case, media is considered to include > > =E2=80=9CIn this case=E2=80=9D seems odd here. I think you mean, =E2= =80=9CIn the=20 > context of this > charter,=E2=80=9D or something like that. > > MOPS acts as a clearinghouse to > identify appropriate venues for further protocol development,=20 > where > necessary. > > I=E2=80=99d rather be more direct in how this is worded (adjust as=20 > needed): > > NEW > Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate=20 > venues for > their development. > END > > Bullet 3 needs a period at the end. And what =E2=80=9Cresulting=20 > innovations=E2=80=9D are we > talking about here? It sounds like more fuzz, so can we be more=20 > specific? > > including global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain=20 > operations. > > Earlier, you used =E2=80=9Csingle-domain=E2=80=9D, and here you use= =20 > =E2=80=9Cwithin-domain=E2=80=9D; please be > consistent. > > There must be a continuous expression of interest for the=20 > Working Group to > work on a particular work item. > > I think you mean =E2=80=9Ccontinuing=E2=80=9D. > > > > > --=20 > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=_MailMate_324AE8F3-2FA8-4DD0-A5C9-88598CEC2FA2_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

(Dropping the IESG mailing list for now; please advise or= re-add if appropriate)

Thanks for the review and comments, Barry. I=E2=80=99ve = updated the draft charter text based on the editorial comments you suppli= ed, and that=E2=80=99s copied below. That text does not reflect changes= to address the blocking comments =E2=80=94 I have some suggestions, whic= h are next.

[Barry wrote:]

= I do have two specific blocking comments, both of which should be easy= to sort
out:

The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-usin= g
technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure tha= t the
existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are develope= d in
sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design.
This sounds like a lot of fuzz without real substance. Let=E2=80=99s= try to tease out
what its really saying and word it more accessibly. At some level th= is seems
to be saying that the premise of MOPS is that what the IETF does is g= ood. I=E2=80=99m
sure there=E2=80=99s more meant here than that, but I don=E2=80=99t u= nderstand what.

This para was meant to be a conclusion of =E2=80=9Cwhat w= e=E2=80=99ll do=E2=80=9D for the issues laid out in the preceding 2 parag= raphs. So, let=E2=80=99s look at all three for context:

[First three paragraphs of the draft charter:]

I= nternet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading to<= br> significant technology development across industries not traditionally th= ought
of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as considerabl= e
quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS is= on
identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are challenged= by
these updated requirements.

MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing and=
proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operati= on
of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the globa= l
Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context o= f this working group, media is considered to include the transport of vid= eo, audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially= =2E The scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the= network, but not the technologies of control protocols or media formats.=

PROBLEM PARA =E2=80=94 TO BE REWRITTEN
The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using
= technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that the=
existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are developed in = sympathy
with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. MOPS acts as a c= learinghouse to
identify appropriate venues for further protocol development, where nec= essary.
BARRY SUGGESTS REPLACING LAST SENTENCE: Where new protocols are needed= , MOPS will identify appropriate venues for
their development.

Here=E2=80=99s a proposed rewrite of the paragraph:

NEW:
MOPS provides a venue for both video industry and Internet engineering ex= perts to engage in discussion of video technology=E2=80=99s requirements = of networking standards, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technolo= gy in video. Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropria= te venues for their development.

[Barry wrote:]

= Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working Grou= p only
if there is a substantial expression of interest from the community an= d if
the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF.

And only with a re-chartering, yes? I don=E2=80=99t think we want the wo= rking group to
be able to pick up *any* related work it chooses, just because it doesn=E2= =80=99t fit
elsewhere, right?

Glenn & I conferred, and agreed that this one is tric= ky to get right as it's easy to not fully include the words in the right = Order and emphasis. " Future work items within this scope" means th= at when things anything that needs rechartering came along, it would abso= lutely go through that exercise, with the intent that MOPS wouldn't stray= from its charter.

We suggest striking the paragraph as it=E2=80=99s not nee= ded. The other parts of the charter already layout what MOPS will work = on, and Clearly going outside of those lines would involve a recharter.

Leslie.

Full updated charter (modulo the blocking comment paragra= phs needing updating):

Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widesp= read, leading to
significant technology development across industries not traditionally th= ought
of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as considerabl= e
quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS is= on
identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are challenged= by
these updated requirements.

MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practic= es; existing and
proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operati= on
of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the globa= l
Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context o= f
this working group, media is considered to include the transport of video= ,
audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially. Th= e
scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the network= , but not
the technologies of control protocols or media formats.

PROBLEM PARA =E2=80=94 TO BE REWRITTEN
The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using
= technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that the=
existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are developed in = sympathy
with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. MOPS acts as a c= learinghouse to
identify appropriate venues for further protocol development, where nec= essary.
BARRY SUGGESTS REPLACING LAST SENTENCE: Where new protocols are needed= , MOPS will identify appropriate venues for
their development.

The goals of MOPS include documenting existing protocol a= nd operational issues
with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential IE= TF work.

To those ends, MOPS will:

1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology de= veloping
consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols.

2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to iden= tify operational
issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine solution= s or
workarounds to those issues.

3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and= opportunities in
media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and techno= logies
developed outside the IETF.

4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisitio= n and delivery.

5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of= media technologies in
the global Internet.

These activities should document media operational experi= ence, including global
Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations.

Media operational and deployment issues with specific pro= tocols or technologies
(such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or Sub= -IP
Protocols) are the primary responsibility of the groups or areas responsi= ble
for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS Working Group may<= br> provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and cooperate with those<= br> areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and deployment pr= oblems.

PROBLEM PARA TO BE REWORKED
Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working Group = only
if there is a substantial expression of interest from the community and i= f the
work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF.

There must be a continuing expression of interest for the= Working Group to work
on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest in t= he
Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of Wo= rking
Group items.

On 4 Oct 2019, at 8:33, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:

B= arry

Thank for your review and your valuable comments as always.

You are right that it is not so easy to have a charter for a "standing wo= rking group" which is the first (?) attempt by the IETF community to have= something resembling to a "special interest group".

On your two specific BLOCKs, I will let the current chairs to rewrite you= r first concern and indeed adding new work items will require a re-charte= r in the current state of the IETF. So, let's be clear on it for now (and= initiate some works on "special interest groups")

Thank you also for your comments/nits: they will improve the text.

Leslie and Glen, may I suggest to update accordingly the draft charter ? = And if the MOPS list agrees with it, then upload it ? (if you do not have= the permission, then simply send it to me)

Regards,

-=C3=A9ric

=EF=BB=BFOn 03/10/2019, 22:19, "iesg on behalf of Barry Leiba via Datatra= cker" <iesg-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of noreply@ietf.org> wrote:<= br>
Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-mops-00-00: Block

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all=
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut th= is
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/


---------------------------------------------------------------------= -
BLOCK:
---------------------------------------------------------------------= -

In general, I'm not terribly happy with how this charter lays out spe= cific work
items (or doesn't). It's very vague, and then when I look to the mil= estones I
get more of an understanding. On the one hand, this is OK, because w= e want
this to be flexible, as a standing working group. On the other hand,= I would
feel better with being somewhat more specific. And I realize that th= is isn't
terribly actionable, so I'm asking that we think about this, and I wo= n't hold
this "block" beyond our doing some reasonable consideration.

I do have two specific blocking comments, both of which should be eas= y to sort
out:

The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-usin= g
technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure tha= t the
existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are develope= d in
sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design.
This sounds like a lot of fuzz without real substance. Let=E2=80=99s= try to tease out
what its really saying and word it more accessibly. At some level th= is seems
to be saying that the premise of MOPS is that what the IETF does is g= ood. I=E2=80=99m
sure there=E2=80=99s more meant here than that, but I don=E2=80=99t u= nderstand what.

Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working= Group only
if there is a substantial expression of interest from the communit= y and if
the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF.

And only with a re-chartering, yes? I don=E2=80=99t think we want th= e working group to
be able to pick up *any* related work it chooses, just because it doe= sn=E2=80=99t fit
elsewhere, right?


---------------------------------------------------------------------= -
COMMENT:
---------------------------------------------------------------------= -

And then there are a number of editorial things:

MOPS=E2=80=99 focus is on
identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are cha= llenged

I suggest avoiding the issue of how to make a possessive of =E2=80=9C= MOPS=E2=80=9D (I would use
=E2=80=9CMOPS=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D) by saying =E2=80=9CThe focus of MOP= S is=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D

MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices, exist= ing and
proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and = operation
of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in th= e global
Internet, inter-domain and single domain networking.

Because the second list item has commas in it, you need the main list= to use
semicolons. Otherwise it=E2=80=99s impossible to be sure one has par= sed it accurately.

NEW
MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; exist= ing and
proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and = operation
of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in th= e global
Internet; and inter-domain and single-domain networking.
END

In this case, media is considered to include

=E2=80=9CIn this case=E2=80=9D seems odd here. I think you mean, =E2= =80=9CIn the context of this
charter,=E2=80=9D or something like that.

MOPS acts as a clearinghouse to
identify appropriate venues for further protocol development, wher= e
necessary.

I=E2=80=99d rather be more direct in how this is worded (adjust as ne= eded):

NEW
Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate ven= ues for
their development.
END

Bullet 3 needs a period at the end. And what =E2=80=9Cresulting inno= vations=E2=80=9D are we
talking about here? It sounds like more fuzz, so can we be more spec= ific?

including global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operatio= ns.

Earlier, you used =E2=80=9Csingle-domain=E2=80=9D, and here you use =E2= =80=9Cwithin-domain=E2=80=9D; please be
consistent.

There must be a continuous expression of interest for the Working = Group to
work on a particular work item.

I think you mean =E2=80=9Ccontinuing=E2=80=9D.




--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

--=_MailMate_324AE8F3-2FA8-4DD0-A5C9-88598CEC2FA2_=-- From nobody Tue Oct 8 14:31:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1E312004C; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 14:31:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=thinkingcat.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GpujAIP2j18L; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 14:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastern.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (eastern.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.55]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1C28120033; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 14:31:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2C0501345; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 21:31:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a11.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-15-150.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.15.150]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3AE1B500806; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 21:31:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a11.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.4); Tue, 08 Oct 2019 21:31:40 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Spill-Power: 3df74b9178de316d_1570570299721_4014922299 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1570570299721:1104108234 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1570570299721 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a11.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a11.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2975683812; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 14:31:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=thinkingcat.com; h=from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=thinkingcat.com; bh=Bioyc9SiPqYNZl osAy9YN6xQO50=; b=F+zFgtyWRlVYunRt7zCatQxlS4ETCbI8238seOgo4fPtyA UJQ9MyEwLrIA/RTrvo2wnGLt5wdsUsVKiphMdqF3/vSDKJQ90NX4VEityvMIqIar nrMBpUyqHJ/Nu4ioiQl0VCGlOaQ5CmKUHykfvWuskUJfC0Dy0ZZPl4Opf6TwY= Received: from [192.168.1.57] (vtelinet-216-66-102-83.vermontel.net [216.66.102.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ldaigle@thinkingcat.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a11.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7CDAA83807; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 14:31:35 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a11 From: "Leslie Daigle" To: "Eric Vyncke" , "Barry Leiba" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 17:31:32 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_9E088B34-C19C-437B-B866-E47E190120C9_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Updated charter. Re: Barry Leiba's Block on charter-ietf-mops-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 21:31:45 -0000 --=_MailMate_9E088B34-C19C-437B-B866-E47E190120C9_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, as I understand the IESG is having a meeting this week where this=20 will be discussed, I=E2=80=99ve incorporated the updates to the problem=20 paragraphs in the following text. And, there was an external comment=20 about how MOPS would work with existing IETF liaison relationships, so=20 I=E2=80=99ve added a paragraph to be clear we=E2=80=99re working with the= ones that=20 exist, or engaging informally. Media OPerationS WG Charter Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading=20 to significant technology development across industries not traditionally=20 thought of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as=20 considerable quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS=20 is on identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are=20 challenged by these updated requirements. MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing=20 and proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and=20 operation of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the=20 global Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context=20 of this working group, media is considered to include the transport of=20 video, audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially.=20 The scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the network= , but=20 not the technologies of control protocols or media formats. MOPS provides a venue for both video industry and Internet engineering experts to engage in discussion of video technology=E2=80=99s requirement= s of networking standards, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technology in video. Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate venues for their development. The goals of MOPS include documenting existing protocol and operational=20 issues with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential=20 IETF work. To those ends, MOPS will: 1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols. 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify=20 operational issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine=20 solutions or workarounds to those issues. 3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and opportunities=20 in media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and=20 technologies developed outside the IETF. 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and delivery. 5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media=20 technologies in the global Internet. These activities should document media operational experience, including=20 global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations. In all cases of working with other organizations mentioned above, MOPS=20 will work with existing liaison managers where the IETF has them, and=20 informal connections with other organizations otherwise. If new formal liaison relationships are required, MOPS will work with the IAB to help=20 establish them. Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or=20 technologies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or=20 Sub-IP Protocols) are the primary responsibility of the groups or areas=20 responsible for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS Working Group may provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and cooperate with those areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and deployment=20 problems. There must be a continuing expression of interest for the Working Group=20 to work on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest in=20 the Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of=20 Working Group items. Leslie. On 7 Oct 2019, at 16:17, Leslie Daigle wrote: > (Dropping the IESG mailing list for now; please advise or re-add if=20 > appropriate) > > Thanks for the review and comments, Barry. I=E2=80=99ve updated the dr= aft=20 > charter text based on the editorial comments you supplied, and=20 > that=E2=80=99s copied below. That text does not reflect changes to ad= dress=20 > the blocking comments =E2=80=94 I have some suggestions, which are next= . > > [Barry wrote:] >> I do have two specific blocking comments, both of which should be=20 >> easy to sort >> out: >> >> The premise of MOPS is that continued development of=20 >> Internet-using >> technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure=20 >> that the >> existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are=20 >> developed in >> sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. >> >> This sounds like a lot of fuzz without real substance. Let=E2=80=99= s=20 >> try to tease out >> what its really saying and word it more accessibly. At some=20 >> level this seems >> to be saying that the premise of MOPS is that what the IETF does=20 >> is good. I=E2=80=99m >> sure there=E2=80=99s more meant here than that, but I don=E2=80=99= t=20 >> understand what. > > This para was meant to be a conclusion of =E2=80=9Cwhat we=E2=80=99ll d= o=E2=80=9D for=20 > the issues laid out in the preceding 2 paragraphs. So, let=E2=80=99s l= ook=20 > at all three for context: > > [First three paragraphs of the draft charter:] >> Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread,=20 >> leading to >> significant technology development across industries not=20 >> traditionally thought >> of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as=20 >> considerable >> quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of=20 >> MOPS is on >> identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are=20 >> challenged by >> these updated requirements. >> >> MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing=20 >> and >> proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and=20 >> operation >> of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the=20 >> global >> Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the=20 >> context of this working group, media is considered to include the=20 >> transport of video, audio, objects and any combination thereof,=20 >> possibly non-sequentially. The scope is media and media protocols=E2=80= =99=20 >> interactions with the network, but not the technologies of control=20 >> protocols or media formats. >> >> PROBLEM PARA =E2=80=94 TO BE REWRITTEN >> The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using >> technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that=20 >> the >> existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are developed=20 >> in sympathy >> with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. MOPS acts as = a=20 >> clearinghouse to >> identify appropriate venues for further protocol development, where=20 >> necessary. >> BARRY SUGGESTS REPLACING LAST SENTENCE: Where new protocols are=20 >> needed, MOPS will identify appropriate venues for >> their development. > > Here=E2=80=99s a proposed rewrite of the paragraph: > > NEW: > MOPS provides a venue for both video industry and Internet engineering=20 > experts to engage in discussion of video technology=E2=80=99s requireme= nts=20 > of networking standards, as well as proposals for new uses of IP=20 > technology in video. Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will=20 > identify appropriate venues for their development. > > [Barry wrote:] >> Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working=20 >> Group only >> if there is a substantial expression of interest from the=20 >> community and if >> the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF. >> >> And only with a re-chartering, yes? I don=E2=80=99t think we want the= =20 >> working group to >> be able to pick up *any* related work it chooses, just because it=20 >> doesn=E2=80=99t fit >> elsewhere, right? > > Glenn & I conferred, and agreed that this one is tricky to get right=20 > as it's easy to not fully include the words in the right Order and=20 > emphasis. " Future work items within this scope" means that when=20 > things anything that needs rechartering came along, it would=20 > absolutely go through that exercise, with the intent that MOPS=20 > wouldn't stray from its charter. > > We suggest striking the paragraph as it=E2=80=99s not needed. The oth= er=20 > parts of the charter already layout what MOPS will work on, and=20 > Clearly going outside of those lines would involve a recharter. > > > > > Leslie. > > > Full updated charter (modulo the blocking comment paragraphs needing=20 > updating): > > Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading=20 > to > significant technology development across industries not traditionally=20 > thought > of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as=20 > considerable > quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS=20 > is on > identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are=20 > challenged by > these updated requirements. > > MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing=20 > and > proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and=20 > operation > of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the=20 > global > Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the=20 > context of > this working group, media is considered to include the transport of=20 > video, > audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially.=20 > The > scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the netwo= rk,=20 > but not > the technologies of control protocols or media formats. > > PROBLEM PARA =E2=80=94 TO BE REWRITTEN > The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using > technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that=20 > the > existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are developed=20 > in sympathy > with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. MOPS acts as a= =20 > clearinghouse to > identify appropriate venues for further protocol development, where=20 > necessary. > BARRY SUGGESTS REPLACING LAST SENTENCE: Where new protocols are=20 > needed, MOPS will identify appropriate venues for > their development. > > The goals of MOPS include documenting existing protocol and=20 > operational issues > with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential=20 > IETF work. > > To those ends, MOPS will: > > 1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing > consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols. > > 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify=20 > operational > issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine=20 > solutions or > workarounds to those issues. > > 3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and=20 > opportunities in > media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and=20 > technologies > developed outside the IETF. > > 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and=20 > delivery. > > 5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media=20 > technologies in > the global Internet. > > These activities should document media operational experience,=20 > including global > Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations. > > Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or=20 > technologies > (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or=20 > Sub-IP > Protocols) are the primary responsibility of the groups or areas=20 > responsible > for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS Working Group=20 > may > provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and cooperate with=20 > those > areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and deployment=20 > problems. > > PROBLEM PARA TO BE REWORKED > Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working=20 > Group only > if there is a substantial expression of interest from the community=20 > and if the > work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF. > > There must be a continuing expression of interest for the Working=20 > Group to work > on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest=20 > in the > Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of=20 > Working > Group items. > > On 4 Oct 2019, at 8:33, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > >> Barry >> >> Thank for your review and your valuable comments as always. >> >> You are right that it is not so easy to have a charter for a=20 >> "standing working group" which is the first (?) attempt by the IETF=20 >> community to have something resembling to a "special interest group". >> >> On your two specific BLOCKs, I will let the current chairs to rewrite=20 >> your first concern and indeed adding new work items will require a=20 >> re-charter in the current state of the IETF. So, let's be clear on it=20 >> for now (and initiate some works on "special interest groups") >> >> Thank you also for your comments/nits: they will improve the text. >> >> Leslie and Glen, may I suggest to update accordingly the draft=20 >> charter ? And if the MOPS list agrees with it, then upload it ? (if=20 >> you do not have the permission, then simply send it to me) >> >> Regards, >> >> -=C3=A9ric >> >> =EF=BB=BFOn 03/10/2019, 22:19, "iesg on behalf of Barry Leiba via=20 >> Datatracker" =20 >> wrote: >> >> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for >> charter-ietf-mops-00-00: Block >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to=20 >> all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to=20 >> cut this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found=20 >> here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >> BLOCK: >> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >> >> In general, I'm not terribly happy with how this charter lays out=20 >> specific work >> items (or doesn't). It's very vague, and then when I look to the=20 >> milestones I >> get more of an understanding. On the one hand, this is OK,=20 >> because we want >> this to be flexible, as a standing working group. On the other=20 >> hand, I would >> feel better with being somewhat more specific. And I realize=20 >> that this isn't >> terribly actionable, so I'm asking that we think about this, and=20 >> I won't hold >> this "block" beyond our doing some reasonable consideration. >> >> I do have two specific blocking comments, both of which should be=20 >> easy to sort >> out: >> >> The premise of MOPS is that continued development of=20 >> Internet-using >> technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure=20 >> that the >> existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are=20 >> developed in >> sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. >> >> This sounds like a lot of fuzz without real substance. Let=E2=80=99= s=20 >> try to tease out >> what its really saying and word it more accessibly. At some=20 >> level this seems >> to be saying that the premise of MOPS is that what the IETF does=20 >> is good. I=E2=80=99m >> sure there=E2=80=99s more meant here than that, but I don=E2=80=99= t=20 >> understand what. >> >> Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the=20 >> Working Group only >> if there is a substantial expression of interest from the=20 >> community and if >> the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF. >> >> And only with a re-chartering, yes? I don=E2=80=99t think we want= the=20 >> working group to >> be able to pick up *any* related work it chooses, just because it=20 >> doesn=E2=80=99t fit >> elsewhere, right? >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >> COMMENT: >> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >> >> And then there are a number of editorial things: >> >> MOPS=E2=80=99 focus is on >> identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are=20 >> challenged >> >> I suggest avoiding the issue of how to make a possessive of=20 >> =E2=80=9CMOPS=E2=80=9D (I would use >> =E2=80=9CMOPS=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D) by saying =E2=80=9CThe focus of = MOPS is=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D >> >> MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices,=20 >> existing and >> proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering,=20 >> and operation >> of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures=20 >> in the global >> Internet, inter-domain and single domain networking. >> >> Because the second list item has commas in it, you need the main=20 >> list to use >> semicolons. Otherwise it=E2=80=99s impossible to be sure one has=20 >> parsed it accurately. >> >> NEW >> MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices;=20 >> existing and >> proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering,=20 >> and operation >> of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures=20 >> in the global >> Internet; and inter-domain and single-domain networking. >> END >> >> In this case, media is considered to include >> >> =E2=80=9CIn this case=E2=80=9D seems odd here. I think you mean, = =E2=80=9CIn the=20 >> context of this >> charter,=E2=80=9D or something like that. >> >> MOPS acts as a clearinghouse to >> identify appropriate venues for further protocol development,=20 >> where >> necessary. >> >> I=E2=80=99d rather be more direct in how this is worded (adjust as= =20 >> needed): >> >> NEW >> Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate=20 >> venues for >> their development. >> END >> >> Bullet 3 needs a period at the end. And what =E2=80=9Cresulting=20 >> innovations=E2=80=9D are we >> talking about here? It sounds like more fuzz, so can we be more=20 >> specific? >> >> including global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain=20 >> operations. >> >> Earlier, you used =E2=80=9Csingle-domain=E2=80=9D, and here you us= e=20 >> =E2=80=9Cwithin-domain=E2=80=9D; please be >> consistent. >> >> There must be a continuous expression of interest for the=20 >> Working Group to >> work on a particular work item. >> >> I think you mean =E2=80=9Ccontinuing=E2=80=9D. >> >> >> >> >> --=20 >> Mops mailing list >> Mops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > > --=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Leslie Daigle > Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises > ldaigle@thinkingcat.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --=20 > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=_MailMate_9E088B34-C19C-437B-B866-E47E190120C9_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Okay, as I understand the IESG is having a meeting this w= eek where this will be discussed, I=E2=80=99ve incorporated the updates t= o the problem paragraphs in the following text. And, there was an externa= l comment about how MOPS would work with existing IETF liaison relationsh= ips, so I=E2=80=99ve added a paragraph to be clear we=E2=80=99re working = with the ones that exist, or engaging informally.

Media OPerationS WG Charter

Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widesp= read, leading to
significant technology development across industries not traditionally th= ought
of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as considerabl= e
quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS is= on
identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are challenged= by
these updated requirements.

MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practic= es; existing and
proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operati= on
of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the globa= l
Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context o= f
this working group, media is considered to include the transport of video= ,
audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially. Th= e
scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the network= , but not
the technologies of control protocols or media formats.

MOPS provides a venue for both video industry and Interne= t engineering
experts to engage in discussion of video technology=E2=80=99s requirement= s of
networking standards, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technology =
in video. Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate =
venues for their development.

The goals of MOPS include documenting existing protocol a= nd operational issues
with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential IE= TF work.

To those ends, MOPS will:

1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology de= veloping
consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols.

2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to iden= tify operational
issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine solution= s or
workarounds to those issues.

3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and= opportunities in
media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and techno= logies
developed outside the IETF.

4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisitio= n and delivery.

5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of= media technologies in
the global Internet.

These activities should document media operational experi= ence, including global
Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations.

In all cases of working with other organizations mentione= d above, MOPS will
work with existing liaison managers where the IETF has them, and informal=
connections with other organizations otherwise. If new formal liaison relationships are required, MOPS will work with the IAB to help establish= them.

Media operational and deployment issues with specific pro= tocols or technologies
(such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or Sub= -IP
Protocols) are the primary responsibility of the groups or areas responsi= ble
for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS Working Group may<= br> provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and cooperate with those<= br> areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and deployment pr= oblems.

There must be a continuing expression of interest for the= Working Group to work
on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest in t= he
Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of Wo= rking
Group items.

Leslie.

On 7 Oct 2019, at 16:17, Leslie Daigle wrote:

(Dropping the IESG mailing list for now; please advise or= re-add if appropriate)

Thanks for the review and comments, Barry. I=E2=80=99ve = updated the draft charter text based on the editorial comments you suppli= ed, and that=E2=80=99s copied below. That text does not reflect changes= to address the blocking comments =E2=80=94 I have some suggestions, whic= h are next.

[Barry wrote:]

= I do have two specific blocking comments, both of which should be easy= to sort
out:

The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-usin= g
technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure tha= t the
existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are develope= d in
sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design.
This sounds like a lot of fuzz without real substance. Let=E2=80=99s= try to tease out
what its really saying and word it more accessibly. At some level th= is seems
to be saying that the premise of MOPS is that what the IETF does is g= ood. I=E2=80=99m
sure there=E2=80=99s more meant here than that, but I don=E2=80=99t u= nderstand what.

This para was meant to be a conclusion of =E2=80=9Cwhat w= e=E2=80=99ll do=E2=80=9D for the issues laid out in the preceding 2 parag= raphs. So, let=E2=80=99s look at all three for context:

[First three paragraphs of the draft charter:]

I= nternet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading to<= br> significant technology development across industries not traditionally th= ought
of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as considerabl= e
quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS is= on
identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are challenged= by
these updated requirements.

MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing and=
proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operati= on
of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the globa= l
Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context o= f this working group, media is considered to include the transport of vid= eo, audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially= =2E The scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the= network, but not the technologies of control protocols or media formats.=

PROBLEM PARA =E2=80=94 TO BE REWRITTEN
The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using
= technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that the=
existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are developed in = sympathy
with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. MOPS acts as a c= learinghouse to
identify appropriate venues for further protocol development, where nec= essary.
BARRY SUGGESTS REPLACING LAST SENTENCE: Where new protocols are needed= , MOPS will identify appropriate venues for
their development.

Here=E2=80=99s a proposed rewrite of the paragraph:

NEW:
MOPS provides a venue for both video industry and Internet engineering ex= perts to engage in discussion of video technology=E2=80=99s requirements = of networking standards, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technolo= gy in video. Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropria= te venues for their development.

[Barry wrote:]

= Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working Grou= p only
if there is a substantial expression of interest from the community an= d if
the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF.

And only with a re-chartering, yes? I don=E2=80=99t think we want the wo= rking group to
be able to pick up *any* related work it chooses, just because it doesn=E2= =80=99t fit
elsewhere, right?

Glenn & I conferred, and agreed that this one is tric= ky to get right as it's easy to not fully include the words in the right = Order and emphasis. " Future work items within this scope" means th= at when things anything that needs rechartering came along, it would abso= lutely go through that exercise, with the intent that MOPS wouldn't stray= from its charter.

We suggest striking the paragraph as it=E2=80=99s not nee= ded. The other parts of the charter already layout what MOPS will work = on, and Clearly going outside of those lines would involve a recharter.

Leslie.

Full updated charter (modulo the blocking comment paragra= phs needing updating):

Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widesp= read, leading to
significant technology development across industries not traditionally th= ought
of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as considerabl= e
quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS is= on
identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are challenged= by
these updated requirements.

MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practic= es; existing and
proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operati= on
of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the globa= l
Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context o= f
this working group, media is considered to include the transport of video= ,
audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially. Th= e
scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the network= , but not
the technologies of control protocols or media formats.

PROBLEM PARA =E2=80=94 TO BE REWRITTEN
The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-using
= technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure that the=
existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are developed in = sympathy
with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design. MOPS acts as a c= learinghouse to
identify appropriate venues for further protocol development, where nec= essary.
BARRY SUGGESTS REPLACING LAST SENTENCE: Where new protocols are needed= , MOPS will identify appropriate venues for
their development.

The goals of MOPS include documenting existing protocol a= nd operational issues
with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential IE= TF work.

To those ends, MOPS will:

1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology de= veloping
consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols.

2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to iden= tify operational
issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine solution= s or
workarounds to those issues.

3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and= opportunities in
media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and techno= logies
developed outside the IETF.

4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisitio= n and delivery.

5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of= media technologies in
the global Internet.

These activities should document media operational experi= ence, including global
Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations.

Media operational and deployment issues with specific pro= tocols or technologies
(such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or Sub= -IP
Protocols) are the primary responsibility of the groups or areas responsi= ble
for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS Working Group may<= br> provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and cooperate with those<= br> areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and deployment pr= oblems.

PROBLEM PARA TO BE REWORKED
Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working Group = only
if there is a substantial expression of interest from the community and i= f the
work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF.

There must be a continuing expression of interest for the= Working Group to work
on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest in t= he
Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of Wo= rking
Group items.

On 4 Oct 2019, at 8:33, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:

B= arry

Thank for your review and your valuable comments as always.

You are right that it is not so easy to have a charter for a "standing wo= rking group" which is the first (?) attempt by the IETF community to have= something resembling to a "special interest group".

On your two specific BLOCKs, I will let the current chairs to rewrite you= r first concern and indeed adding new work items will require a re-charte= r in the current state of the IETF. So, let's be clear on it for now (and= initiate some works on "special interest groups")

Thank you also for your comments/nits: they will improve the text.

Leslie and Glen, may I suggest to update accordingly the draft charter ? = And if the MOPS list agrees with it, then upload it ? (if you do not have= the permission, then simply send it to me)

Regards,

-=C3=A9ric

=EF=BB=BFOn 03/10/2019, 22:19, "iesg on behalf of Barry Leiba via Datatra= cker" <iesg-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of noreply@ietf.org> wrote:<= br>
Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-mops-00-00: Block

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all=
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut th= is
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/


---------------------------------------------------------------------= -
BLOCK:
---------------------------------------------------------------------= -

In general, I'm not terribly happy with how this charter lays out spe= cific work
items (or doesn't). It's very vague, and then when I look to the mil= estones I
get more of an understanding. On the one hand, this is OK, because w= e want
this to be flexible, as a standing working group. On the other hand,= I would
feel better with being somewhat more specific. And I realize that th= is isn't
terribly actionable, so I'm asking that we think about this, and I wo= n't hold
this "block" beyond our doing some reasonable consideration.

I do have two specific blocking comments, both of which should be eas= y to sort
out:

The premise of MOPS is that continued development of Internet-usin= g
technologies should be properly coordinated in order to ensure tha= t the
existing technologies are well-utilized, and new ones are develope= d in
sympathy with the Internet=E2=80=99s core protocols and design.
This sounds like a lot of fuzz without real substance. Let=E2=80=99s= try to tease out
what its really saying and word it more accessibly. At some level th= is seems
to be saying that the premise of MOPS is that what the IETF does is g= ood. I=E2=80=99m
sure there=E2=80=99s more meant here than that, but I don=E2=80=99t u= nderstand what.

Future work items within this scope will be adopted by the Working= Group only
if there is a substantial expression of interest from the communit= y and if
the work clearly does not fit elsewhere in the IETF.

And only with a re-chartering, yes? I don=E2=80=99t think we want th= e working group to
be able to pick up *any* related work it chooses, just because it doe= sn=E2=80=99t fit
elsewhere, right?


---------------------------------------------------------------------= -
COMMENT:
---------------------------------------------------------------------= -

And then there are a number of editorial things:

MOPS=E2=80=99 focus is on
identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are cha= llenged

I suggest avoiding the issue of how to make a possessive of =E2=80=9C= MOPS=E2=80=9D (I would use
=E2=80=9CMOPS=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D) by saying =E2=80=9CThe focus of MOP= S is=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D

MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices, exist= ing and
proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and = operation
of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in th= e global
Internet, inter-domain and single domain networking.

Because the second list item has commas in it, you need the main list= to use
semicolons. Otherwise it=E2=80=99s impossible to be sure one has par= sed it accurately.

NEW
MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; exist= ing and
proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and = operation
of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in th= e global
Internet; and inter-domain and single-domain networking.
END

In this case, media is considered to include

=E2=80=9CIn this case=E2=80=9D seems odd here. I think you mean, =E2= =80=9CIn the context of this
charter,=E2=80=9D or something like that.

MOPS acts as a clearinghouse to
identify appropriate venues for further protocol development, wher= e
necessary.

I=E2=80=99d rather be more direct in how this is worded (adjust as ne= eded):

NEW
Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate ven= ues for
their development.
END

Bullet 3 needs a period at the end. And what =E2=80=9Cresulting inno= vations=E2=80=9D are we
talking about here? It sounds like more fuzz, so can we be more spec= ific?

including global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operatio= ns.

Earlier, you used =E2=80=9Csingle-domain=E2=80=9D, and here you use =E2= =80=9Cwithin-domain=E2=80=9D; please be
consistent.

There must be a continuous expression of interest for the Working = Group to
work on a particular work item.

I think you mean =E2=80=9Ccontinuing=E2=80=9D.




--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

--=_MailMate_9E088B34-C19C-437B-B866-E47E190120C9_=-- From nobody Wed Oct 9 08:04:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B0612004D; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 23:16:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.105.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <157060180330.30524.13434483758013996169.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 23:16:43 -0700 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 08:04:45 -0700 Subject: [Mops] Benjamin Kaduk's Block on charter-ietf-mops-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 06:16:44 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-mops-00-00: Block When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BLOCK: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Probably a "discuss discuss^Wblock", but: 1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols. How does this fit within the existing IETF/IAB liaison frameworks? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet, inter-domain and single domain networking. In this case, media is considered to include the transport of video, audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially. The scope is media and media What are "objects"? From nobody Wed Oct 9 08:04:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD8812006E; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 07:28:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry Leiba via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.105.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Barry Leiba Message-ID: <157063132209.26917.11058658040933214752.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 07:28:42 -0700 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 08:04:45 -0700 Subject: [Mops] Barry Leiba's Yes on charter-ietf-mops-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:28:42 -0000 Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-mops-00-01: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for addressing my comments. From nobody Wed Oct 9 08:55:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C6C120808; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 08:54:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jRf0vM5Q9hsj; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 08:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00176a04.pphosted.com (mx0a-00176a04.pphosted.com [67.231.149.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FFF1120232; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 08:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0047965.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0047965.ppops.net-00176a04. 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potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com ([100.124.56.53]) with mapi id 15.01.0669.032; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 09:54:34 -0600 From: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" To: Benjamin Kaduk , The IESG CC: "mops-chairs@ietf.org" , "mops@ietf.org" , "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" Thread-Topic: [Mops] Benjamin Kaduk's Block on charter-ietf-mops-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHVfrnYpU9S2hIyVUiy0lm/BSEocA== Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 15:54:34 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1d.0.190908 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [100.126.25.30] x-exclaimer-md-config: 47edc00f-f2d6-45ef-be83-8a353bd47e45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,1.0.8 definitions=2019-10-09_07:2019-10-08,2019-10-09 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1910090144 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Benjamin Kaduk's Block on charter-ietf-mops-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 15:54:42 -0000 DQoNCu+7v09uIDEwLzkvMTksIDg6MDUgQU0sICJNb3BzIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBCZW5qYW1pbiBL YWR1ayB2aWEgRGF0YXRyYWNrZXIiIDxtb3BzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9m IG5vcmVwbHlAaWV0Zi5vcmc+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQogICAgQmVuamFtaW4gS2FkdWsgaGFzIGVudGVy ZWQgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBiYWxsb3QgcG9zaXRpb24gZm9yDQogICAgY2hhcnRlci1pZXRmLW1v 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.105.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <157076859331.20413.4933284227867157550.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 21:36:33 -0700 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 00:08:15 -0700 Subject: [Mops] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on charter-ietf-mops-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 04:36:34 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-mops-00-01: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for addressing my blocking point! From nobody Fri Oct 11 08:01:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94D1C12003F; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 07:07:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: avezza@amsl.com, mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org, evyncke@cisco.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.105.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157080284656.29231.1973661559578222459.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 07:07:26 -0700 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 08:01:26 -0700 Subject: [Mops] mops - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 106 X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 14:07:27 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Amy K. Vezza, on behalf of the mops working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Media OPerationS Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Amy Vezza Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Technology Overlap: quic cdni mboned pim mmusic httpbis doh taps dnssd hip homenet softwire dprive People who must be present: Eric Vyncke Leslie Daigle Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Oct 15 23:54:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B0C120077; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 23:54:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Adam Roach via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.105.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Adam Roach Message-ID: <157120884485.27918.16027944052238371746.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 23:54:04 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Adam Roach's No Objection on charter-ietf-mops-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 06:54:05 -0000 Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-mops-00-01: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm balloting "No Objection," but I have some pretty substantial comments that I'd like to see given serious consideration before we send the charter out for further review. > 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify operational > issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine solutions or > workarounds to those issues. I'd like to request some clarity about the anticipated output relics of those determinations. Are these to be mailing list discussions exclusively? Will there be RFCs produced? If not, is there a plan to publish the conclusions in a more discoverable location than the MOPS mailing list? This same comment applies across bullet points 2 through 5, and I think it needs to be treated on a bullet-by-bullet basis. In particular, some of these enumerated goals (e.g., the first clause of item 3) sound like they intend to produce the kind of support documents discussed at . I'd like to make sure the charter is clear about whether this working group expects to request publication of such support documents as part of its chartered work. > 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and delivery. The term "acquisition" seems ambiguous here. A simple reading of this would imply the process whereby one acquires media from its canonical source (e.g., rights holders); but my previous experience with the discussions that led to this charter give me the impression that this likely has more to do with physical recording devices, like videocameras. The charter should be clear about which of these senses of "acquisition" is meant. > Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or technologies > (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or Sub-IP > Protocols) are the primary responsibility of the groups or areas responsible > for those protocols or technologies. The use of the word "primary" here is a bit worrisome, as it carries with it an implication that MOPS may serve as a secondary custodian of them. I'm sure that's not what's intended. I worry that this phrasing could be used somewhere down the road in an attempt to defend the undertaking of work that really should be done in a more appropriate area. I would suggest a revision along the lines of: "Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or technologies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or Sub-IP Protocols) remain the responsibility of the groups or areas responsible for those protocols or technologies." > There must be a continuing expression of interest for the Working Group to work > on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest in the > Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of Working > Group items. Some mention of the mechanics of how this continuing interest will be determined would be welcome. From nobody Wed Oct 16 08:02:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E70120120; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:02:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=thinkingcat.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fLlNwPJCgwsi; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bisque.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (bisque.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D971F12002E; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:02:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D0F580D74; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:02:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a45.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-90-126.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.90.126]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 47ACD580DA3; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:02:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a45.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:02:42 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Versed-Whistle: 585ca40a0f28d660_1571238162737_979314070 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1571238162737:172208582 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1571238162737 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a45.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a45.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D07380554; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:02:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=thinkingcat.com; h=from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=thinkingcat.com; bh=p 40ektV295OzaGiZ8mSoIqK5ubU=; b=eebMKKUfHKs5JIJTDRGL+7bbaNNJY4dnr pxbpDTaL2lY8hSCqzduQ5xlvRXqltGboT1LOjNYNxxiM7JJIyW7SEMZPm3J9KVuS 4m/cYHppkCJiDYyLqnf056jkW3dFdXsFzNdqqcRbzuy50dHDJy4QVlXgHUbKti4M BLmf9XpbPk= Received: from [193.0.26.102] (dhcp-26-102.mtg.ripe.net [193.0.26.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ldaigle@thinkingcat.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a45.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A86FA8051A; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:02:36 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a45 From: "Leslie Daigle" To: "Adam Roach" Cc: "The IESG" , mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 11:02:32 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: <91CF05A2-36D4-49FF-A379-1C1767CB8E78@thinkingcat.com> In-Reply-To: <157120884485.27918.16027944052238371746.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <157120884485.27918.16027944052238371746.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_C2DD8BD0-93C7-4B65-8F16-4B4AFE953F05_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Adam Roach's No Objection on charter-ietf-mops-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:02:47 -0000 --=_MailMate_C2DD8BD0-93C7-4B65-8F16-4B4AFE953F05_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Thanks =E2=80=94 some followup, in-line. On 16 Oct 2019, at 2:54, Adam Roach via Datatracker wrote: > Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-mops-00-01: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut=20 > this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm balloting "No Objection," but I have some pretty substantial > comments that I'd like to see given serious consideration before > we send the charter out for further review. > >> 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify=20 >> operational >> issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine=20 >> solutions or >> workarounds to those issues. > > I'd like to request some clarity about the anticipated output relics=20 > of those > determinations. Are these to be mailing list discussions exclusively?=20 > Will > there be RFCs produced? If not, is there a plan to publish the=20 > conclusions in > a more discoverable location than the MOPS mailing list? That=E2=80=99s an interesting question, and I think there are, indeed, so= me=20 implicit assumptions in this text. Let me preface the rest of my answer with: MOPS can=E2=80=99t be just ab= out=20 people talking among themselves. So, the right question in every case=20 is going to be: if this is useful information, how can we make it=20 available to (others) who need to know it, now or in the future. For this particular point, my first thought is that there will be=20 presentations at MOPS meetings, and thus there will be proceedings=20 materials. And, if there is particular interest in the items that are=20 identified, the people presenting will either be vectored to the WG(s)=20 that need to hear about the issues, or a WG document would seem like a=20 logical follow up to flesh out any identified issues. > > This same comment applies across bullet points 2 through 5, and I=20 > think it Here is 3/: 3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and opportunities=20 in media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and=20 technologies developed outside the IETF. Same answer as for =E2=80=9C2/=E2=80=9C =E2=80=94 mailing list contributi= on -> meeting=20 presentation (proceedings) -> redirect to other WG, or document more=20 fully in I-D/RFC And 4/: 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and delivery. Ditto And 5/: 5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media=20 technologies in the global Internet. Ditto. > needs to be treated on a bullet-by-bullet basis. In particular, some=20 > of these > enumerated goals (e.g., the first clause of item 3) sound like they=20 > intend to > produce the kind of support documents discussed at > . > I'd like to make sure the charter is clear about whether this working=20 > group > expects to request publication of such support documents as part of=20 > its > chartered work. I=E2=80=99m a little unclear why this has to be decided up front. ISTM t= hat=20 some items will be more ephemeral than others, and saying either =E2=80=9C= we=20 will never publish=E2=80=9D (which could bury information useful to other= s) or=20 =E2=80=9Cwe will always request publication=E2=80=9D (which could yield a= lot of=20 make-work) seems premature. > >> 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and=20 >> delivery. > > The term "acquisition" seems ambiguous here. A simple reading of this > would imply the process whereby one acquires media from its canonical > source (e.g., rights holders); but my previous experience with the > discussions that led to this charter give me the impression that this=20 > likely > has more to do with physical recording devices, like videocameras. The=20 > charter > should be clear about which of these senses of "acquisition" is meant. It is the latter. =E2=80=9CTechnical media acquisition=E2=80=9D? =E2=80=9C= Non-legal media=20 acquisition=E2=80=9D? > >> Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or=20 >> technologies >> (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or=20 >> Sub-IP >> Protocols) are the primary responsibility of the groups or areas=20 >> responsible >> for those protocols or technologies. > > The use of the word "primary" here is a bit worrisome, as it carries=20 > with it > an implication that MOPS may serve as a secondary custodian of them.=20 > I'm > sure that's not what's intended. I worry that this phrasing could be=20 > used > somewhere down the road in an attempt to defend the undertaking of=20 > work > that really should be done in a more appropriate area. I would suggest=20 > a > revision along the lines of: > > "Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or=20 > technologies > (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or=20 > Sub-IP > Protocols) remain the responsibility of the groups or areas=20 > responsible > for those protocols or technologies." That=E2=80=99s better, thanks. > >> There must be a continuing expression of interest for the Working=20 >> Group to work >> on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest=20 >> in the >> Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list=20 >> of Working >> Group items. > > Some mention of the mechanics of how this continuing interest will be=20 > determined > would be welcome. This was a paragraph =C3=89ric asked us to import from another WG=E2=80=99= s=20 charter, so I=E2=80=99d be happy to have his guidance on how that should = be=20 handled. Leslie. --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=_MailMate_C2DD8BD0-93C7-4B65-8F16-4B4AFE953F05_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Thanks =E2=80=94 some followup, in-line.

On 16 Oct 2019, at 2:54, Adam Roach via Datatracker wrote= :

A= dam Roach has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-mops-00-01: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
= email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/



---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm balloting "No Objection," but I have some pretty substantial
comments that I'd like to see given serious consideration before
we send the charter out for further review.

2/ Solicit = input from network operators and users to identify operational
issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine solution= s or
workarounds to those issues.

I'd like to request some clarity about the a= nticipated output relics of those
determinations. Are these to be mailing list discussions exclusively? Wi= ll
there be RFCs produced? If not, is there a plan to publish the conclusion= s in
a more discoverable location than the MOPS mailing list?

That=E2=80=99s an interesting question, and I think there= are, indeed, some implicit assumptions in this text.

Let me preface the rest of my answer with: MOPS can=E2=80= =99t be just about people talking among themselves. So, the right questi= on in every case is going to be: if this is useful information, how can = we make it available to (others) who need to know it, now or in the futur= e.

For this particular point, my first thought is that there= will be presentations at MOPS meetings, and thus there will be proceedin= gs materials. And, if there is particular interest in the items that are= identified, the people presenting will either be vectored to the WG(s) t= hat need to hear about the issues, or a WG document would seem like a log= ical follow up to flesh out any identified issues.

T= his same comment applies across bullet points 2 through 5, and I think it=

Here is 3/:
3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and opportunities i= n
media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and techno= logies
developed outside the IETF.

Same answer as for =E2=80=9C2/=E2=80=9C =E2=80=94 mailing= list contribution -> meeting presentation (proceedings) -> redirec= t to other WG, or document more fully in I-D/RFC

And 4/:
4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and delivery.<= /p>

Ditto

And 5/:
5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media technolog= ies in
the global Internet.

Ditto.

n= eeds to be treated on a bullet-by-bullet basis. In particular, some of th= ese
enumerated goals (e.g., the first clause of item 3) sound like they inten= d to
produce the kind of support documents discussed at
<https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/s= tatements/support-documents/>.
I'd like to make sure the charter is clear about whether this working gro= up
expects to request publication of such support documents as part of its chartered work.

I=E2=80=99m a little unclear why this has to be decided u= p front. ISTM that some items will be more ephemeral than others, and sa= ying either =E2=80=9Cwe will never publish=E2=80=9D (which could bury inf= ormation useful to others) or =E2=80=9Cwe will always request publication= =E2=80=9D (which could yield a lot of make-work) seems premature.

4/ Document operational requ= irements for media acquisition and delivery.

The term "acquisition" seems ambiguous here.= A simple reading of this
would imply the process whereby one acquires media from its canonical
= source (e.g., rights holders); but my previous experience with the
discussions that led to this charter give me the impression that this lik= ely
has more to do with physical recording devices, like videocameras. The ch= arter
should be clear about which of these senses of "acquisition" is meant.

It is the latter. =E2=80=9CTechnical media acquisition=E2= =80=9D? =E2=80=9CNon-legal media acquisition=E2=80=9D?

Media operational and deploy= ment issues with specific protocols or technologies
(such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or Sub= -IP
Protocols) are the primary responsibility of the groups or areas responsi= ble
for those protocols or technologies.

The use of the word "primary" here is a bit = worrisome, as it carries with it
an implication that MOPS may serve as a secondary custodian of them. I'm<= br> sure that's not what's intended. I worry that this phrasing could be used=
somewhere down the road in an attempt to defend the undertaking of work that really should be done in a more appropriate area. I would suggest a<= br> revision along the lines of:

"Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or techn= ologies
(such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or Sub= -IP
Protocols) remain the responsibility of the groups or areas responsible for those protocols or technologies."

That=E2=80=99s better, thanks.

There must be a continuing e= xpression of interest for the Working Group to work
on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest in t= he
Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of Wo= rking
Group items.

Some mention of the mechanics of how this co= ntinuing interest will be determined
would be welcome.

This was a paragraph =C3=89ric asked us to import from an= other WG=E2=80=99s charter, so I=E2=80=99d be happy to have his guidance = on how that should be handled.

Leslie.

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

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X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8528A1207FD; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:55:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alvaro Retana via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.105.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alvaro Retana Message-ID: <157124492848.7863.17435697410548400491.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:55:28 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on charter-ietf-mops-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 16:55:29 -0000 Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-mops-00-01: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate venues for their development." It doesn't seem to be this WGs call to decide where to do new work. As mentioned later in the charter, existing areas/groups already have responsibility in related spaces. It should then be up to the relevant WGs...ADs...the IESG...to determine where new work will take place (if at all). Given the next to last paragraph... ... Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or technologies... I think that the sentence above is not needed and may lead do confusion. From nobody Wed Oct 16 10:19:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F87912080C for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:19:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=krose.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rnODYSThzIBn for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com (mail-yb1-xb36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCD2A1207FD for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id 206so8063001ybc.8 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:19:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=krose.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ugC9dSA7kZZIXR8IO22RpeTGTcLPW6bW4nBKAAyqJyc=; b=SMuXfNH/NBpiXqDwDH6TULgnY6PoqfQp1+0luRneG3R0MzSxTV3ORFbEWniU0TpqEg VAYx6Hs1iQYi4VW6iJQ0wE4M/+zdKzYvhWlTmaFHzrILNiGnfPijCMoMhu74e6QEHEXk EppKAHM/F5grkR7FNszFrzum9yFIn6xeNo6UU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ugC9dSA7kZZIXR8IO22RpeTGTcLPW6bW4nBKAAyqJyc=; b=nACvj/j30ix4JdWqY1kRNFD7SFeDVdb/fmTX6QV9oZOWs/kdsREVTBVi26rde3e6uz 4b3Hd39ceyx77t31mXUQMsOT4BQ8fNeeY2JBCHopXh4PblaFe7NOqXqTBxaEUYkCMOdS zuPCStzDqDaTNkQZ/CDXqWFpuus/8zLHIkGvBfF0I57nfYs0YhRYOqpBBNzQBe4Iz+5C sreCuFXAUl/5Xqy0MaWi9S1qyQ9IblfeghuERp+7jwBRCewZve3xd5QqhOQ8WcVyZnmD AAtscoe6IrcoEarD0m4kH3s132+pJqZx2/7Sfh8GNZvX0evG0nK3o5URdykFv1oAqJK7 0+qg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWEPPDeSf8XEVSUwsTNlD8Bbutsoqq21PYfBNbfkQD4d1kA991+ ApZuYewQYN97RHjVY2Pxm0d5V0QDgobRawhnUjJsVxyQsuY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyxXtVvLMw+/bThDrSIvZDm/tH0hImXxorH1gLwNDr3OjVaD4SqHsG67M7jnEkubphkL20mwl0jtR/FppNAZ+g= X-Received: by 2002:a25:9cc5:: with SMTP id z5mr5746747ybo.82.1571246364520; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:19:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157124492848.7863.17435697410548400491.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <157124492848.7863.17435697410548400491.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Kyle Rose Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:19:13 -0400 Message-ID: To: Alvaro Retana Cc: The IESG , mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000069881005950a4d24" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on charter-ietf-mops-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:19:28 -0000 --00000000000069881005950a4d24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 12:55 PM Alvaro Retana via Datatracker < noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > "Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate venues for > their development." > > It doesn't seem to be this WGs call to decide where to do new work. As > mentioned later in the charter, existing areas/groups already have > responsibility in related spaces. It should then be up to the relevant > WGs...ADs...the IESG...to determine where new work will take place (if at > all). > How about "help identify candidate venues for their development"? I think the idea is to make it easier for WG participants to bootstrap the process of finding an appropriate venue within the IETF for their work. Kyle --00000000000069881005950a4d24 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 12:55 PM Alvaro Retana via Datatracker <<= a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
"Where new protocol= s are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate venues for
their development."

It doesn't seem to be this WGs call to decide where to do new work.=C2= =A0 As
mentioned later in the charter, existing areas/groups already have
responsibility in related spaces.=C2=A0 It should then be up to the relevan= t
WGs...ADs...the IESG...to determine where new work will take place (if at a= ll).

How about "help identify cand= idate venues for their development"? I think the idea is to make it ea= sier for WG participants to bootstrap the process of finding an appropriate= venue within the IETF for their work.

Kyle
--00000000000069881005950a4d24-- From nobody Wed Oct 16 11:03:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B442120962; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:29:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dmVfchNBg3Uq; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D896412086F; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.local (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x9GHT6Sb046692 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:29:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1571246948; bh=qVSYH3zxjvx7JdDr1awIZE1iWuOca90l6tIl5untRws=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=sP6oN3dqqIkybC64N5qZbBn+S9cRrvl5WbiEV1qJX0O46mkvuxQH7/p0VHK+Kuxf5 1ElbEJmTd92f8b0MO/t61zsHepLuX9B0UJfURBEPaevUoUB452fEL2uD0hz1IyzspX eujrz7bIjqCQ2qwOvRVENXsFbS4JQ+kvHQwcKOb4= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.local To: Leslie Daigle Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org, The IESG References: <157120884485.27918.16027944052238371746.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <91CF05A2-36D4-49FF-A379-1C1767CB8E78@thinkingcat.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <8cc3cc7e-4145-c7da-ffc7-7f59375e93c0@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:29:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <91CF05A2-36D4-49FF-A379-1C1767CB8E78@thinkingcat.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5BD3DD92636570162C392D20" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 11:03:52 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mops] Adam Roach's No Objection on charter-ietf-mops-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:29:18 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5BD3DD92636570162C392D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the quick response! Replies inline. On 10/16/19 10:02 AM, Leslie Daigle wrote: > > Hi, > > Thanks — some followup, in-line. > > On 16 Oct 2019, at 2:54, Adam Roach via Datatracker wrote: > > Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-mops-00-01: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm balloting "No Objection," but I have some pretty substantial > comments that I'd like to see given serious consideration before > we send the charter out for further review. > > 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify > operational > issues with media delivery in and across networks, and > determine solutions or > workarounds to those issues. > > I'd like to request some clarity about the anticipated output > relics of those > determinations. Are these to be mailing list discussions > exclusively? Will > there be RFCs produced? If not, is there a plan to publish the > conclusions in > a more discoverable location than the MOPS mailing list? > > That’s an interesting question, and I think there are, indeed, some > implicit assumptions in this text. > > Let me preface the rest of my answer with: MOPS can’t be just about > people talking among themselves. So, the right question in every case > is going to be: if this is useful information, how can we make it > available to (others) who need to know it, now or in the future. > > For this particular point, my first thought is that there will be > presentations at MOPS meetings, and thus there will be proceedings > materials. And, if there is particular interest in the items that are > identified, the people presenting will either be vectored to the WG(s) > that need to hear about the issues, or a WG document would seem like a > logical follow up to flesh out any identified issues. > > This same comment applies across bullet points 2 through 5, and I > think it > > Here is 3/: > 3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and opportunities in > media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and > technologies > developed outside the IETF. > > Same answer as for “2/“ — mailing list contribution -> meeting > presentation (proceedings) -> redirect to other WG, or document more > fully in I-D/RFC > > And 4/: > 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and delivery. > > Ditto > > And 5/: > 5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media > technologies in > the global Internet. > > Ditto. > Okay; if the answer is the same, then this can probably be consolidated into one paragraph that discusses working group deliverables. > needs to be treated on a bullet-by-bullet basis. In particular, > some of these > enumerated goals (e.g., the first clause of item 3) sound like > they intend to > produce the kind of support documents discussed at > . > I'd like to make sure the charter is clear about whether this > working group > expects to request publication of such support documents as part > of its > chartered work. > > I’m a little unclear why this has to be decided up front. ISTM that > some items will be more ephemeral than others, and saying either “we > will never publish” (which could bury information useful to others) or > “we will always request publication” (which could yield a lot of > make-work) seems premature. > The cited IESG statement itself talks about why this needs to be discussed up front: > As regards to timing, it would be worthwhile to discuss the need to > publish support documents early during the charter development process > in order to set the right expectations and minimize surprises at a > late stage. Therefore, working group charters may direct the working > group to publish this content using alternate mechanisms, or may > instruct the working group to consider the appropriate mechanism as > work proceeds. For working groups that aren't explicitly chartered to produce such "support documents," there have been a number of instances of strong push-back at IESG evaluation time against such documents, for the reasons cited elsewhere in that IESG statement. If it is the intention of this working group to publish such documents as RFCs, we should have the discussion about whether that is an appropriate outcome *now*, or you'll run into issues later, on a draft-by-draft basis, if and when you attempt to do so. It sounds like you intend to leave the door open to such publication (while not requiring it); in which case, the charter should explicitly state as much. > 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and > delivery. > > The term "acquisition" seems ambiguous here. A simple reading of this > would imply the process whereby one acquires media from its canonical > source (e.g., rights holders); but my previous experience with the > discussions that led to this charter give me the impression that > this likely > has more to do with physical recording devices, like videocameras. > The charter > should be clear about which of these senses of "acquisition" is meant. > > It is the latter. “Technical media acquisition”? “Non-legal media > acquisition”? > Thanks to Glenn for his clarification about the clear meaning of this term in specific technical circles. I'm not objecting to the use of the term of art here; I'm suggesting that it have a layperson-level clarification appended to it. e.g.: 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition (for example, from cameras and recording devices) and delivery. /a --------------5BD3DD92636570162C392D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thanks for the quick response! Replies inline.

On 10/16/19 10:02 AM, Leslie Daigle wrote:

Hi,

Thanks — some followup, in-line.

On 16 Oct 2019, at 2:54, Adam Roach via Datatracker wrote:

Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-mops-00-01: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm balloting "No Objection," but I have some pretty substantial
comments that I'd like to see given serious consideration before
we send the charter out for further review.

2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify operational
issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine solutions or
workarounds to those issues.

I'd like to request some clarity about the anticipated output relics of those
determinations. Are these to be mailing list discussions exclusively? Will
there be RFCs produced? If not, is there a plan to publish the conclusions in
a more discoverable location than the MOPS mailing list?

That’s an interesting question, and I think there are, indeed, some implicit assumptions in this text.

Let me preface the rest of my answer with: MOPS can’t be just about people talking among themselves. So, the right question in every case is going to be: if this is useful information, how can we make it available to (others) who need to know it, now or in the future.

For this particular point, my first thought is that there will be presentations at MOPS meetings, and thus there will be proceedings materials. And, if there is particular interest in the items that are identified, the people presenting will either be vectored to the WG(s) that need to hear about the issues, or a WG document would seem like a logical follow up to flesh out any identified issues.

This same comment applies across bullet points 2 through 5, and I think it

Here is 3/:
3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and opportunities in
media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and technologies
developed outside the IETF.

Same answer as for “2/“ — mailing list contribution -> meeting presentation (proceedings) -> redirect to other WG, or document more fully in I-D/RFC

And 4/:
4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and delivery.

Ditto

And 5/:
5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media technologies in
the global Internet.

Ditto.


Okay; if the answer is the same, then this can probably be consolidated into one paragraph that discusses working group deliverables.


needs to be treated on a bullet-by-bullet basis. In particular, some of these
enumerated goals (e.g., the first clause of item 3) sound like they intend to
produce the kind of support documents discussed at
<https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/support-documents/>.
I'd like to make sure the charter is clear about whether this working group
expects to request publication of such support documents as part of its
chartered work.

I’m a little unclear why this has to be decided up front. ISTM that some items will be more ephemeral than others, and saying either “we will never publish” (which could bury information useful to others) or “we will always request publication” (which could yield a lot of make-work) seems premature.


The cited IESG statement itself talks about why this needs to be discussed up front:

As regards to timing, it would be worthwhile to discuss the need to publish support documents early during the charter development process in order to set the right expectations and minimize surprises at a late stage. Therefore, working group charters may direct the working group to publish this content using alternate mechanisms, or may instruct the working group to consider the appropriate mechanism as work proceeds.
 

For working groups that aren't explicitly chartered to produce such "support documents," there have been a number of instances of strong push-back at IESG evaluation time against such documents, for the reasons cited elsewhere in that IESG statement. If it is the intention of this working group to publish such documents as RFCs, we should have the discussion about whether that is an appropriate outcome *now*, or you'll run into issues later, on a draft-by-draft basis, if and when you attempt to do so. It sounds like you intend to leave the door open to such publication (while not requiring it); in which case, the charter should explicitly state as much.



4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition and delivery.

The term "acquisition" seems ambiguous here. A simple reading of this
would imply the process whereby one acquires media from its canonical
source (e.g., rights holders); but my previous experience with the
discussions that led to this charter give me the impression that this likely
has more to do with physical recording devices, like videocameras. The charter
should be clear about which of these senses of "acquisition" is meant.

It is the latter. “Technical media acquisition”? “Non-legal media acquisition”?


Thanks to Glenn for his clarification about the clear meaning of this term in specific technical circles. I'm not objecting to the use of the term of art here; I'm suggesting that it have a layperson-level clarification appended to it. e.g.:


4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition (for example, from cameras and recording devices) and delivery.


/a

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Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 22:38:34 +0200 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: <2A1A9A19-1CE3-4817-A9D3-0AC07AC7FF3B@nbcuni.com> References: <2A1A9A19-1CE3-4817-A9D3-0AC07AC7FF3B@nbcuni.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 22:38:34 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" , The IESG Cc: "mops-chairs@ietf.org" , "mops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c6fb4805950d1538" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on charter-ietf-mops-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 20:38:40 -0000 --000000000000c6fb4805950d1538 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On October 16, 2019 at 2:22:54 PM, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) ( glenn.deen@nbcuni.com) wrote: Glenn: Hi! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate venues for their development." It doesn't seem to be this WGs call to decide where to do new work. As mentioned later in the charter, existing areas/groups already have responsibility in related spaces. It should then be up to the relevant WGs...ADs...the IESG...to determine where new work will take place (if at all). Given the next to last paragraph... ... Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or technologies... I think that the sentence above is not needed and may lead do confusion. [GD] With MOPS being focused on Media operations means it will see input, often in a not ready for other WG to see form. The collective knowledge in MOPS would in turn hone/develop that into something better rounded out which in turn would be submitted to either existing WGs or to AD/IESG as appropriate for the situation. The lawyers call such ideas - inchoate. MOPS's to turn inchoate media focused ideas in to something more complete and fleshed out and ready for other groups to take a look at them. MOPS would not be deciding the venue for the new work, but would play a role in bringing it to the attention of the appropriate venue. Would this new working be better?: "Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will flesh out the nascent need and raise to the attention of the appropriate parties (AD/IESG)" Yes, that would be better. Thanks!= Alvaro. --000000000000c6fb4805950d1538 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
On October 16, 2019 at 2:22:54 PM, Deen, Glenn (= NBCUniversal) (glenn.deen@nbcuni.c= om) wrote:

Glen= n:

Hi!


-----------------= -----------------------------------------------------=C2=A0
COMMENT:=C2=A0
------------------------------------------------------= ----------------=C2=A0

= "Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate venues= for=C2=A0
their developmen= t."=C2=A0

It doesn= 't seem to be this WGs call to decide where to do new work. As=C2=A0
mentioned later in the charte= r, existing areas/groups already have= =C2=A0
responsibility in related spaces. It should then be up to = the relevant=C2=A0
WGs...AD= s...the IESG...to determine where new work will take place (if at all).=C2=A0

Given the next to la= st paragraph...=C2=A0

.= .. Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or=C2=A0
technologies...=C2=A0

I think that the sentence a= bove is not needed and may lead do confusion.=C2=A0

[GD] With MOPS being focused on Media operatio= ns means it will see input, often in a not ready for other WG to see form. = The collective knowledge in MOPS would in turn hone/develop that into somet= hing better rounded out which in turn would be submitted to either existing= WGs or to AD/IESG as appropriate for the situation. The lawyers call such = ideas - inchoate. MOPS's to turn inchoate media focused ideas in to som= ething more complete and fleshed out and ready for other groups to take a l= ook at them.=C2=A0

MOPS= would not be deciding the venue for the new work, but would play a role in= bringing it to the attention of the appropriate venue.=C2=A0=C2=A0=

Would this new working be better?:=C2=A0

"Where new protocols are needed, MOPS= will flesh out the nascent need and raise to the attention of the appropri= ate parties (AD/IESG)"=C2=A0

Yes, that would be better.

<= p>Thanks!=3D

Alvaro.

<= /html> --000000000000c6fb4805950d1538-- From nobody Wed Oct 16 15:11:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1956C120052; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:11:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id osSs7dWZYuwz; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52c.google.com (mail-ed1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D3CB12004A; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id h33so15324edh.12; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:11:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JjSpZD/ImICnarFb4Jg8g4+B5f7LZS44DcuLnKKIgkg=; b=iFgSSfyhOwmSBQPvqI853OexTM0sB5S3KtDzvV+Aoh9Pscrg+5StdlBgldiIH4SK3n mWEGp0uoBqA3cxlTPXvIaM75xghngH7wKOZ9lmkVIRVrqHFQS3TnV6Cf3LNFsH6/K9uE 0S5L8f1NXALDsP3V+uox0kzx/cho0PknvmJtUGEGcITkaZqInL2vRNXQZG/ppRo/HXJ6 tXPLmWXJ/kZcBjefZNNbV7XGdtpRCJPpaZAGZOvQ9cxWpsJFq5hbGEKTs86+/RMl00Mz gBZp2YYWUYi0siavYixnpF1G48ASdeacGemUJopqSKQhYOCkbcEjUrLOXX6WqFnKnBuw vv+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JjSpZD/ImICnarFb4Jg8g4+B5f7LZS44DcuLnKKIgkg=; b=Es+NQneT077dK/WveGDCUAIicLoSEBobaM3rpez6jyznGtKZ4jaDpFhKok8tBZFVq0 QgWHlZeT1N6u+ak18oaFvKRyqbYHLvQI5NwvZ6KXEhkj7hnft0q4O6Ejjfmzu9M79lfr Kz2wwYwBQ38MBDqKPJFIo8Qi5jfrOvDVQUixYvsu0ildcHLxo7VwDhG1cY4zCFLGtm0v eHRHN5UG2bAD4w7SZYQBCOh3tZjJdVaPLLTkuj0uP30/HSN2UYZrYEclCiJ7M6uA+Tjj znI1adQ0wlAUQAJ4jjZLLrePdqRV5TyiKxp05lst+TNxUcvCZccBckbrs7rRvNKKveQy DEHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX8i36HFtT4tVuEHaUEdPma8TxXAUvvyYQazPAwb7YsHOE3N5VJ 5pbE/XDZX9ooJNPrF4tjt0LbO4eRG8ypjdU+eZU3vg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzvfyROi9fRGGbI4qvppE1VeQ6i1MjMTeWevCy0bCvTxnoC8oCN4R9GtqDRh9wsGt83ZWJe0xKMk+E3wrRViKk= X-Received: by 2002:a50:cb86:: with SMTP id k6mr492512edi.270.1571263867727; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 00:11:07 +0200 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: <157124492848.7863.17435697410548400491.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 00:11:07 +0200 Message-ID: To: Kyle Rose Cc: mops@ietf.org, The IESG , mops-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000af330505950e6042" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on charter-ietf-mops-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 22:11:11 -0000 --000000000000af330505950e6042 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On October 16, 2019 at 1:19:25 PM, Kyle Rose (krose@krose.org) wrote: "Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identify appropriate venues for their development." It doesn't seem to be this WGs call to decide where to do new work. As mentioned later in the charter, existing areas/groups already have responsibility in related spaces. It should then be up to the relevant WGs...ADs...the IESG...to determine where new work will take place (if at all). How about "help identify candidate venues for their development"? I think the idea is to make it easier for WG participants to bootstrap the process of finding an appropriate venue within the IETF for their work. That works too. Thanks! Alvaro. --000000000000af330505950e6042 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
On October 16, 2019 at 1:19:25 PM, Kyle Ro= se (krose@krose.org) wrote:=

<= /span>
"Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will identif= y appropriate venues for
their development."

It doesn't seem to be t= his WGs call to decide where to do new work.=C2=A0 As
mentioned later in the= charter, existing areas/groups already have
responsibility in related space= s.=C2=A0 It should then be up to the relevant
WGs...ADs...the IESG...to dete= rmine where new work will take place (if at all).

How about "help identify candidate ve= nues for their development"? I think the idea is to make it easier for= WG participants to bootstrap the process of finding an appropriate venue w= ithin the IETF for their work.
=

That works too.

Thanks!

Alvaro.
--000000000000af330505950e6042-- From nobody Wed Oct 16 16:13:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3DA12003F; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 16:13:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.105.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Message-ID: <157126760619.7940.17435223121734531238.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 16:13:26 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Block_on_charter-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?mops-00-01=3A_=28with_BLOCK_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 23:13:27 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-mops-00-01: Block When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BLOCK: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In the IESG we discussed that this group has a different character than most of the other groups we have so far and as such chartering this group has some experimental character. My questions is how do we decide if having this group is a success or when we want or need to close this group at any time in the future? I would like to see something about this in the charter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't fully understand the goal of the milestones: documenting Streaming Video Alliance (SVA)/Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) reliance on IETF protocols. The charter says: "Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols." This sounds like the group would use presentation time and the slides in the processing to get these updates and not necessarily write RFCs. From nobody Wed Oct 16 17:39:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29BD912003E; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:39:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Roman Danyliw via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.105.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roman Danyliw Message-ID: <157127277909.7863.3912830102687448849.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:39:39 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on charter-ietf-mops-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 00:39:40 -0000 Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-mops-00-01: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ** I share the concerns that Adam Roach raised. ** I don't see it in the charter text, but the IESG also talking about MOPS having an implicit dispatch function. If this is the case, I recommend it being documented in the charter. From nobody Thu Oct 17 02:51:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADDB41200A1; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 02:51:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=RLUlb+RP; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=Q5WDsaCp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4hJQEgEd1QAV; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 02:51:10 -0700 (PDT) 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17 Oct 2019 09:51:06 +0000 From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" To: Adam Roach , Leslie Daigle CC: "mops-chairs@ietf.org" , "mops@ietf.org" , The IESG Thread-Topic: Adam Roach's No Objection on charter-ietf-mops-00-01: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHVhDLtj43SF2uis0uHQ4QFOCSkLKddhgCAgAEz6oA= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 09:51:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <157120884485.27918.16027944052238371746.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <91CF05A2-36D4-49FF-A379-1C1767CB8E78@thinkingcat.com> <8cc3cc7e-4145-c7da-ffc7-7f59375e93c0@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <8cc3cc7e-4145-c7da-ffc7-7f59375e93c0@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: fr-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1e.0.191013 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evyncke@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:c0c0:1001::12] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7420dbe3-4606-4bc6-1331-08d752e787de x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Vigoureux via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.105.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Martin Vigoureux Message-ID: <157131242894.9380.7742689852610715402.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 04:40:28 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Martin Vigoureux's No Objection on charter-ietf-mops-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:40:29 -0000 Martin Vigoureux has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-mops-00-01: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I like the idea of having such type of WG. However, I find that publishing something like 4 or 5 RFCs is a lot (too much?) compared to the scope of the group. In comparison LAKE doesn't even plan on publishing (as an RFC) requirements for the technology it will develop. From nobody Thu Oct 17 04:55:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939051200E3; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 04:55:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=thinkingcat.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gee-VoY-UefD; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 04:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonobo.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (bonobo.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72E561200C5; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 04:55:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3D35A1393; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:55:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a40.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-6-135.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.6.135]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E06995A12FC; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:55:35 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a40.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:55:36 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Trail-Ruddy: 22be12425527c8bc_1571313336348_3233809071 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1571313336348:4271722074 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1571313336347 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a40.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a40.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4689793117; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 04:55:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=thinkingcat.com; h=from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=thinkingcat.com; bh=Q 2pGNLX2PCjjzeWW2q9cJeVI7Sk=; b=WQiNrcqSiYZ/4gBt1R+Na4k9PPJP8Uv2P f8/a+qe85hCel4avR1Za6E2Cwkm6hhpSjNb1LeMTo3+IOL2Hfqul0b2dfwq1ng14 tT2uXiLjMRPQqAd63rbzdKQlXN/HSzO+38U6BTHOTPhDBxXvbEA2eSoDqllfCzBt uWcygSLkWs= Received: from [193.0.26.165] (dhcp-26-165.mtg.ripe.net [193.0.26.165]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ldaigle@thinkingcat.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a40.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9FF919306C; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 04:55:32 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a40 From: "Leslie Daigle" To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 07:55:28 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: <39DFE74A-1C50-4E4B-B620-A92E2CC56BE7@thinkingcat.com> In-Reply-To: <157126760619.7940.17435223121734531238.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <157126760619.7940.17435223121734531238.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_EF1B9B9E-D6CF-4E3C-A9F3-44781EE35807_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] =?utf-8?q?Updated_charter_text_and_comments_Re=3A__Mirja_?= =?utf-8?q?K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Block_on_charter-ietf-mops-00-01=3A_=28with_?= =?utf-8?q?BLOCK_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:55:42 -0000 --=_MailMate_EF1B9B9E-D6CF-4E3C-A9F3-44781EE35807_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Replying to this particular message, but collectively responding to all=20 comments and discussion (in advance of today=E2=80=99s IESG call). I=E2=80=99ve updated the charter, below, based on the items that seem to = be=20 agreed. There are a couple of points still open: 1/ How this group continues (or stops): [Mirja wrote:] > In the IESG we discussed that this group has a different character=20 > than most of > the other groups we have so far and as such chartering this group has=20 > some > experimental character. My questions is how do we decide if having=20 > this group > is a success or when we want or need to close this group at any time=20 > in the > future? I would like to see something about this in the charter. [Adam wrote:] >> There must be a continuing expression of interest for the Working=20 >> Group to work >> on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest=20 >> in the >> Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list=20 >> of Working >> Group items. > > Some mention of the mechanics of how this continuing interest will be=20 > determined > would be welcome. My understanding is that the WG exists at the pleasure of the IESG, so=20 you can shut it down any time you think it isn=E2=80=99t useful. That sa= id, I=20 appreciate that can be messy :^) and setting expectations would be=20 helpful. For whether we keep up with an item or not, traditionally we=E2=80=99ve h= ad=20 working group discussions about whether or not anyone still saw value in=20 it or not. Perhaps that ties in with the question of whether there is=20 the believe that a particular item seems to have archival importance or=20 not (now included in the charter text, below). Is that enough? Though, I don=E2=80=99t know what specific success metrics would be usefu= l to=20 answer Mirja=E2=80=99s question. 2/ Specific documents [Mirja wrote:] > I don't fully understand the goal of the milestones: documenting=20 > Streaming > Video Alliance (SVA)/Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE)=20 > reliance > on IETF protocols. > > The charter says: > "Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing > consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols." > > This sounds like the group would use presentation time and the slides=20 > in the > processing to get these updates and not necessarily write RFCs. FYI, both SVA and SMPTE have been presented =E2=80=94 at the MOPS BoF in=20 Montreal. The point of pursuing these as documents is: to keep the discussion=20 going, as the dependencies evolve; to (hopefully!) draw in more of the=20 technical participants of those groups to IETF discussions (in MOPS and=20 other relevant WGs); to get the information circulated more broadly (we=20 do all still read the Internet-Draft announce list, right? ;-) ). So, I think they are valid as work items. I could agree that they=20 might not need to be published as RFCs for archiving: the updated=20 charter text suggests that it would take an explicit discussion/decision=20 of the working group to pursue that. Updated charter text: Media OPerationS WG Charter Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading=20 to significant technology development across industries not traditionally=20 thought of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as=20 considerable quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS=20 is on identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are=20 challenged by these updated requirements. MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing=20 and proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and=20 operation of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the=20 global Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context=20 of this working group, media is considered to include the transport of=20 video, audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially.=20 The scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the network= , but=20 not the technologies of control protocols or media formats. MOPS provides a venue for both video industry and Internet engineering experts to engage in discussion of video technology=E2=80=99s requirement= s of networking standards, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technology in video. Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will help identify=20 candidate venues for their development. The goals of MOPS include documenting existing protocol and operational=20 issues with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential=20 IETF work. The general process of elaboration through documentation will be for=20 issues to be identified (on the mailing list) and presentations made at WG meetings. =20 When topics merit more coherent documentation, MOPS will adopt working group=20 documents to capture the information in Internet-Drafts. If the material of the=20 Internet-Draft is deemed generally useful for archival purposes, the WG will seek=20 publication of the work items as RFCs. At any point =E2=80=94 from early discussion of= =20 topics, through later documentation stages =E2=80=94 MOPS may identify a more appropriate= WG=20 for the matter and/or document, and dispatch it. With that in mind, MOPS will: 1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols. 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify=20 operational issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine=20 solutions or workarounds to those issues. 3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and opportunities=20 in media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and=20 technologies developed outside the IETF. 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition (for example,=20 from cameras and recording devices) and delivery. 5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media=20 technologies in the global Internet. These activities should document media operational experience, including=20 global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations. In all cases of working with other organizations mentioned above, MOPS=20 will work with existing liaison managers where the IETF has them, and=20 informal connections with other organizations otherwise. If new formal liaison relationships are required, MOPS will work with the IAB to help=20 establish them. Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or=20 technologies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or=20 Sub-IP Protocols) remain the responsibility of the groups or areas responsible for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS Working Group=20 may provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and cooperate with those areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and deployment=20 problems. There must be a continuing expression of interest for the Working Group=20 to work on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest in=20 the Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of=20 Working Group items. On 16 Oct 2019, at 19:13, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker wrote: > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-mops-00-01: Block > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut=20 > this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > BLOCK: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the IESG we discussed that this group has a different character=20 > than most of > the other groups we have so far and as such chartering this group has=20 > some > experimental character. My questions is how do we decide if having=20 > this group > is a success or when we want or need to close this group at any time=20 > in the > future? I would like to see something about this in the charter. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't fully understand the goal of the milestones: documenting=20 > Streaming > Video Alliance (SVA)/Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE)=20 > reliance > on IETF protocols. > > The charter says: > "Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing > consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols." > > This sounds like the group would use presentation time and the slides=20 > in the > processing to get these updates and not necessarily write RFCs. > > > --=20 > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=_MailMate_EF1B9B9E-D6CF-4E3C-A9F3-44781EE35807_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Replying to this particular message, but collectively res= ponding to all comments and discussion (in advance of today=E2=80=99s IES= G call).

I=E2=80=99ve updated the charter, below, based on the ite= ms that seem to be agreed.

There are a couple of points still open:

1/ How this group continues (or stops):

[Mirja wrote:]

I= n the IESG we discussed that this group has a different character than mo= st of
the other groups we have so far and as such chartering this group has som= e
experimental character. My questions is how do we decide if having this g= roup
is a success or when we want or need to close this group at any time in t= he
future? I would like to see something about this in the charter.

[Adam wrote:]

There must be a continuing e= xpression of interest for the Working Group to work
on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest in t= he
Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of Wo= rking
Group items.

Some mention of the mechanics of how this co= ntinuing interest will be determined
would be welcome.

My understanding is that the WG exists at the pleasure of= the IESG, so you can shut it down any time you think it isn=E2=80=99t us= eful. That said, I appreciate that can be messy :^) and setting expectat= ions would be helpful.

For whether we keep up with an item or not, traditionally= we=E2=80=99ve had working group discussions about whether or not anyone = still saw value in it or not. Perhaps that ties in with the question of = whether there is the believe that a particular item seems to have archiva= l importance or not (now included in the charter text, below). Is that e= nough?

Though, I don=E2=80=99t know what specific success metric= s would be useful to answer Mirja=E2=80=99s question.

2/ Specific documents

[Mirja wrote:]

I= don't fully understand the goal of the milestones: documenting Streaming=
Video Alliance (SVA)/Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) reli= ance
on IETF protocols.

The charter says:
"Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing
consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols."

This sounds like the group would use presentation time and the slides in = the
processing to get these updates and not necessarily write RFCs.

FYI, both SVA and SMPTE have been presented =E2=80=94 at = the MOPS BoF in Montreal.

The point of pursuing these as documents is: to keep = the discussion going, as the dependencies evolve; to (hopefully!) draw i= n more of the technical participants of those groups to IETF discussions = (in MOPS and other relevant WGs); to get the information circulated more = broadly (we do all still read the Internet-Draft announce list, right? ;-= ) ).

So, I think they are valid as work items. I could agree= that they might not need to be published as RFCs for archiving: the upd= ated charter text suggests that it would take an explicit discussion/deci= sion of the working group to pursue that.

Updated charter text:

Media OPerationS WG Charter

Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widesp= read, leading to
significant technology development across industries not traditionally th= ought
of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as considerabl= e
quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS is= on
identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are challenged= by
these updated requirements.

MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practic= es; existing and
proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operati= on
of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the globa= l
Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context o= f
this working group, media is considered to include the transport of video= ,
audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially. Th= e
scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the network= , but not
the technologies of control protocols or media formats.

MOPS provides a venue for both video industry and Interne= t engineering
experts to engage in discussion of video technology=E2=80=99s requirement= s of
networking standards, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technology =
in video. Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will help identify candida= te
venues for their development.

The goals of MOPS include documenting existing protocol a= nd operational issues
with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential IE= TF work.
The general process of elaboration through documentation will be for issu= es to be
identified (on the mailing list) and presentations made at WG meetings. = When topics
merit more coherent documentation, MOPS will adopt working group document= s to
capture the information in Internet-Drafts. If the material of the Inter= net-Draft
is deemed generally useful for archival purposes, the WG will seek public= ation of
the work items as RFCs. At any point =E2=80=94 from early discussion of= topics, through
later documentation stages =E2=80=94 MOPS may identify a more appropriate= WG for the
matter and/or document, and dispatch it.

With that in mind, MOPS will:

1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology de= veloping
consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols.

2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to iden= tify operational
issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine solution= s or
workarounds to those issues.

3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and= opportunities in
media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and techno= logies
developed outside the IETF.

4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisitio= n (for example, from
cameras and recording devices) and delivery.

5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of= media technologies in
the global Internet.

These activities should document media operational experi= ence, including global
Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations.

In all cases of working with other organizations mentione= d above, MOPS will
work with existing liaison managers where the IETF has them, and informal=
connections with other organizations otherwise. If new formal liaison relationships are required, MOPS will work with the IAB to help establish= them.

Media operational and deployment issues with specific pro= tocols or technologies
(such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or Sub= -IP
Protocols) remain the responsibility of the groups or areas responsible for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS Working Group may=
provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and cooperate with those<= br> areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and deployment pr= oblems.

There must be a continuing expression of interest for the= Working Group to work
on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest in t= he
Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of Wo= rking
Group items.

On 16 Oct 2019, at 19:13, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatr= acker wrote:

M= irja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-mops-00-01: Block

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
= email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/



---------------------------------------------------------------------- BLOCK:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In the IESG we discussed that this group has a different character than m= ost of
the other groups we have so far and as such chartering this group has som= e
experimental character. My questions is how do we decide if having this g= roup
is a success or when we want or need to close this group at any time in t= he
future? I would like to see something about this in the charter.


---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't fully understand the goal of the milestones: documenting Streamin= g
Video Alliance (SVA)/Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) reli= ance
on IETF protocols.

The charter says:
"Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing
consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols."

This sounds like the group would use presentation time and the slides in = the
processing to get these updates and not necessarily write RFCs.


--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

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IA0KICAgIE1vcHMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQogICAgTW9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgIGh0dHBzOi8v d3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbW9wcw0KICAgIA0KDQo= From nobody Fri Oct 18 08:43:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF3A12000F; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 08:43:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.106.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Message-ID: <157141340231.3836.12797058966548263221.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 08:43:22 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_charte?= =?utf-8?q?r-ietf-mops-00-03=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:43:23 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-mops-00-03: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for edits and discussion of my Block! ------- Old comment: I don't fully understand the goal of the milestones: documenting Streaming Video Alliance (SVA)/Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) reliance on IETF protocols. The charter says: "Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols." This sounds like the group would use presentation time and the slides in the processing to get these updates and not necessarily write RFCs. From nobody Fri Oct 18 08:44:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9229712004C; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 08:44:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UXRwSjYpI5Dl; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 08:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC53412000F; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 08:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.60.249.85] (helo=[172.20.5.68]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1iLUQ5-0000Tj-M1; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 17:44:01 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <4059823B-6AF4-48D2-A3CA-DBB2986B6618@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 08:43:39 -0700 Cc: The IESG , "mops-chairs@ietf.org" , "mops@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <157126760619.7940.17435223121734531238.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4059823B-6AF4-48D2-A3CA-DBB2986B6618@cisco.com> To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1571413444;09da7b22; X-HE-SMSGID: 1iLUQ5-0000Tj-M1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Block_on_charter-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?mops-00-01=3A_=28with_BLOCK_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:44:08 -0000 Thanks! Done. > On 18. Oct 2019, at 03:06, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) = wrote: >=20 > Mirja and other, >=20 > Leslie has worked on a revised charter = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ including AFAIK all = issues raised during the review and yesterday telechat. I have also = added a milestone in 2 year for the IESG to revisit the charter of MOPS = and decide to recharter, continue or close the WG. >=20 > Mirja, if the next text fixes your BLOCK, then would you mind clearing = it ? >=20 > Thank you all for your assistance during this chartering of a very = special WG ;) >=20 > -=C3=A9ric >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 17/10/2019, 01:13, "Mops on behalf of Mirja K=C3=BChlewind = via Datatracker" = wrote: >=20 > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-mops-00-01: Block >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > BLOCK: > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > In the IESG we discussed that this group has a different character = than most of > the other groups we have so far and as such chartering this group = has some > experimental character. My questions is how do we decide if having = this group > is a success or when we want or need to close this group at any = time in the > future? I would like to see something about this in the charter. >=20 >=20 > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I don't fully understand the goal of the milestones: documenting = Streaming > Video Alliance (SVA)/Motion Picture and Television Engineers = (SMPTE) reliance > on IETF protocols. >=20 > The charter says: > "Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing > consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols." >=20 > This sounds like the group would use presentation time and the = slides in the > processing to get these updates and not necessarily write RFCs. >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Oct 18 09:25:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F387012000F; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 09:25:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.106.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: mops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <157141595198.3845.16528921337633672515.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 09:25:51 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] WG Review: Media OPerationS (mops) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 16:25:52 -0000 A new IETF WG has been proposed in the Operations and Management Area. The IESG has not made any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2019-10-28. Media OPerationS (mops) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Current status: Proposed WG Chairs: Leslie Daigle Assigned Area Director: Éric Vyncke Operations and Management Area Directors: Warren Kumari Ignas Bagdonas Technical advisors: Warren Kumari Mailing list: Address: mops@ietf.org To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/mops/ Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/mops/ Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading to significant technology development across industries not traditionally thought of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as considerable quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS is on identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are challenged by these updated requirements. MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing and proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operation of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the global Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context of this working group, media is considered to include the transport of video, audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially. The scope is media and media protocols’ interactions with the network, but not the technologies of control protocols or media formats. MOPS provides a venue for both video industry and Internet engineering experts to engage in discussion of video technology’s requirements of networking standards, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technology in video. Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will help identify candidate venues for their development. The goals of MOPS include documenting existing protocol and operational issues with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential IETF work. The general process of elaboration through documentation will be for issues to be identified (on the mailing list) and presentations made at WG meetings. When topics merit more coherent documentation, MOPS will adopt working group documents to capture the information in Internet-Drafts. If the working group consensus is that the material of the Internet-Draft is generally useful for archival purposes, the WG will seek publication of the work items as RFCs. At any point — from early discussion of topics, through later documentation stages — MOPS may identify a more appropriate WG for the matter and/or document, and dispatch it. With that in mind, MOPS will: 1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols. 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify operational issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine solutions or workarounds to those issues. 3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and opportunities in media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and technologies developed outside the IETF. 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition (for example, from cameras and recording devices) and delivery. 5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media technologies in the global Internet. These activities should document media operational experience, including global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations. In all cases of working with other organizations mentioned above, MOPS will work with existing liaison managers where the IETF has them, and informal connections with other organizations otherwise. If new formal liaison relationships are required, MOPS will work with the IAB to help establish them. Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or technologies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols, DNS or Sub-IP Protocols) remain the responsibility of the groups or areas responsible for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS Working Group may provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and cooperate with those areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and deployment problems. There must be a continuing expression of interest for the Working Group to work on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest in the Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of Working Group items. The IESG is establishing this working group on an experimental basis and intends to review it, for rechartering to continue or else closure, in 2 years. Milestones: Feb 2020 - Draft of edge network operational considerations for streaming media Feb 2020 - Initial draft operational considerations for low latency streaming video applications Mar 2020 - Draft documenting Streaming Video Alliance (SVA) reliance on IETF protocols Mar 2020 - Draft documenting Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) protocol reliance on IETF protocols Jul 2020 - Last-call document on Streaming Video Alliance (SVA) reliance on IETF protocols (including explicit outreach to SVA) Jul 2020 - Last-call document on Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) protocol reliance on IETF protocols (including explicit outreach to SMPTE) Jul 2020 - Revised draft of edge network operational considerations for streaming media Jul 2020 - Revised draft operational considerations for low latency streaming video applications Nov 2020 - Last-call document on edge network considerations for streaming media Nov 2020 - Last-call document on operational considerations for low latency streaming video applications Nov 2020 - Develop work items specific to media acquisition and delivery Nov 2021 - IESG to decide whether continue, re-charter or close MOPS WG From nobody Tue Oct 22 17:38:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A5912021C; Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:38:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PxVfeGF-InnU; Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1DCD120219; Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id u16so14559000lfq.3; Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:38:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pmOKrDkgw21OIXJ1qw6KMPdC/jSox0iusVYx1aHbx+k=; b=IFWlTF5XLTM0arWZX0y4QvtDw7KUHLPq7Rl/KQCyUlRqv7n74PbEuxh4ougHj16Jg2 Rg4LBpEYjXXib38hmSv7W9fCfB8cmeltoREklNUTJdS8mWfBUynyf+tVgqFjY8JdW0XG lpLDrBcFWyxfop0f9xeU/1XrE1pA+XkdT8nfHyPZUfISqrFPefMf2m74QKjJsg9EsiQK 0D6YdkgHtVQsSRg+67PZBMzsVIMdq1g47Nrx+/NKWsj9O+0D3bPblG+gbsB6zbb4R+Aq FDe8OwfW9x9bzQPqGCw/3ukJODMZXZhQtFQM5M9reG1ZEpnK1neC5+gBNw887IpWjtXm Lfyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pmOKrDkgw21OIXJ1qw6KMPdC/jSox0iusVYx1aHbx+k=; b=XBUDZLk7xFNS9Q6x7J+CLhtoQuxT45M/TZ+JAwSZlsmKVGLPQ+9E1hwwXbBrQW5Ek6 Vip0veej1HJQUG3qhpdczZAfRL//+5A62NAno/k+Syp4MoF8qz95/gwoD6oX6z39W1cz xZQlwwM1d6b+Ex3uYkUsfeyUoZERgeCi0MeQxgIhW1L71KVA/XkK3sKEaJCcJDufxqhP sN79UkefB++3hDvkIJIaITUm0GxvGS/4Wt8BbHwN7RLMVLcYYxCtOFY54kwTtASMPtlA AXbRkwhqEUAvg/68/+UuUmfTqS/L+JkO2vhYFFwBHAwc0lpQLJIqYGeBbzjOC36ymy2T ieDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV3Ac5eNSMf7JKNgklyjWn5QKJLXrRsqbN2qRiWdsmuliJa1Kg6 VyPFFCTROl7uzQ6SrJsomd5xCnqkltm2qibZpJ1OVQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwC8cN3eyz/0SjgLsWQG7R6wzIXWoxniqQBMvYNr8jrZK8lAi2feH5GJNNhzPED/cHA7o9i6c+SvxC4Fu4N9dI= X-Received: by 2002:a19:4b4f:: with SMTP id y76mr7190812lfa.102.1571791094476; Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:38:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157141595198.3845.16528921337633672515.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <157141595198.3845.16528921337633672515.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 19:37:42 -0500 Message-ID: To: The IESG Cc: mops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d8f5cd0595892166" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] WG Review: Media OPerationS (mops) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 00:38:21 -0000 --000000000000d8f5cd0595892166 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear IESG, Chartering MOPS as an IETF working group seems to be the Right Thing To Do. I agree with previous discussions that some topics may not be at the engineering level, but discussions on those topics will have a launching pad, no matter where they end up, which will be a good thing. I'm sure everyone involved is aware of the struggles we've had to obtain inputs and participation from operators (for longer than I've been active at IETF). This is pushing that effort down a level (from IAB and IESG interactions with NANOG, RIPE, and GSMA, among other places, over the past three or four years), and I think that's a good thing as well. I saw discussion about what gets published and what doesn't get published outside MOPS, and I would encourage the responsible AD to be flexible as MOPS figures that out - we have had discussions with NOGs about Best Current Operational Practices/BCOP documents, so the possible set of choices MOPS could consider might be broader than the usual IETF working group. The text in the proposed charter on liaison relationships is fine, as far as it goes, but I hope all the MOPSters remember that the IETF cooperates best when it and another organization have overlapping participants - that's even more informal than "informal liaisons". The more that can be encouraged, the better for MOPS. (Leslie will understand this very well, from her time as IAB chair) I hope I'm able to contribute to this working group, if it's approved by the IESG. Thanks for moving forward on this topic. Best wishes, Spencer On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 11:25 AM The IESG wrote: > A new IETF WG has been proposed in the Operations and Management Area. Th= e > IESG has not made any determination yet. The following draft charter was > submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. Please send > your > comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2019-10-28. > > Media OPerationS (mops) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Current status: Proposed WG > > Chairs: > Leslie Daigle > > Assigned Area Director: > =C3=89ric Vyncke > > Operations and Management Area Directors: > Warren Kumari > Ignas Bagdonas > > Technical advisors: > Warren Kumari > > Mailing list: > Address: mops@ietf.org > To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/mops/ > > Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/mops/ > > Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ > > Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading to > significant technology development across industries not traditionally > thought > of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as considerabl= e > quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS is > on > identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are challenged > by > these updated requirements. > > MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing and > proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operati= on > of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the globa= l > Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context o= f > this working group, media is considered to include the transport of video= , > audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially. Th= e > scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the network= , but not > the technologies of control protocols or media formats. > > MOPS provides a venue for both video industry and Internet engineering > experts to engage in discussion of video technology=E2=80=99s requirement= s of > networking standards, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technology > in video. Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will help identify candida= te > venues for their development. > > The goals of MOPS include documenting existing protocol and operational > issues > with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential IE= TF > work. The general process of elaboration through documentation will be fo= r > issues to be identified (on the mailing list) and presentations made at W= G > meetings. When topics merit more coherent documentation, MOPS will adopt > working group documents to capture the information in Internet-Drafts. If > the > working group consensus is that the material of the Internet-Draft is > generally useful for archival purposes, the WG will seek publication of t= he > work items as RFCs. At any point =E2=80=94 from early discussion of topic= s, through > later documentation stages =E2=80=94 MOPS may identify a more appropriate= WG for > the > matter and/or document, and dispatch it. > > With that in mind, MOPS will: > > 1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing > consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols. > > 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify operational > issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine solution= s > or > workarounds to those issues. > > 3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and opportunities i= n > media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and > technologies developed outside the IETF. > > 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition (for example, > from > cameras and recording devices) and delivery. > > 5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media > technologies > in the global Internet. > > These activities should document media operational experience, including > global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations. > > In all cases of working with other organizations mentioned above, MOPS wi= ll > work with existing liaison managers where the IETF has them, and informal > connections with other organizations otherwise. If new formal liaison > relationships are required, MOPS will work with the IAB to help establish > them. > > Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or > technologies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocol= s, > DNS or Sub-IP Protocols) remain the responsibility of the groups or areas > responsible for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS Workin= g > Group may provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and cooperate > with > those areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and > deployment > problems. > > There must be a continuing expression of interest for the Working Group t= o > work on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest > in > the Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list o= f > Working Group items. > > The IESG is establishing this working group on an experimental basis and > intends to review it, for rechartering to continue or else closure, in 2 > years. > > Milestones: > > Feb 2020 - Draft of edge network operational considerations for streami= ng > media > > Feb 2020 - Initial draft operational considerations for low latency > streaming video applications > > Mar 2020 - Draft documenting Streaming Video Alliance (SVA) reliance on > IETF protocols > > Mar 2020 - Draft documenting Society of Motion Picture and Television > Engineers (SMPTE) protocol reliance on IETF protocols > > Jul 2020 - Last-call document on Streaming Video Alliance (SVA) relianc= e > on > IETF protocols (including explicit outreach to SVA) > > Jul 2020 - Last-call document on Society of Motion Picture and Televisi= on > Engineers (SMPTE) protocol reliance on IETF protocols (including explic= it > outreach to SMPTE) > > Jul 2020 - Revised draft of edge network operational considerations for > streaming media > > Jul 2020 - Revised draft operational considerations for low latency > streaming video applications > > Nov 2020 - Last-call document on edge network considerations for > streaming > media > > Nov 2020 - Last-call document on operational considerations for low > latency > streaming video applications > > Nov 2020 - Develop work items specific to media acquisition and deliver= y > > Nov 2021 - IESG to decide whether continue, re-charter or close MOPS WG > > > -- > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > --000000000000d8f5cd0595892166 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear IESG,

Chartering MOPS a= s an IETF working group seems to be the Right Thing To Do. I agree with pre= vious discussions that some topics may not be at the engineering level, but= discussions on those topics will have a launching pad, no matter where the= y end up, which will be a good thing.

I'm sure= everyone involved is aware of the struggles we've had to obtain inputs= and participation from operators (for longer than I've been active at = IETF). This is pushing that effort down a level (from IAB and IESG interact= ions with NANOG, RIPE, and GSMA, among other places, over the past three or= four years), and I think that's a good thing as well.=C2=A0
=
I saw discussion about what gets published and what doesn= 9;t get published outside MOPS, and I would encourage the responsible AD to= be flexible as MOPS figures that out - we have had discussions with NOGs a= bout Best Current Operational Practices/BCOP documents, so the possible set= of choices MOPS could consider might be broader than the usual IETF workin= g group.

The text in the proposed charter on liais= on relationships is fine, as far as it goes, but I hope all the MOPSters re= member that the IETF cooperates best when it and another organization have = overlapping participants - that's even more informal than "informa= l liaisons". The more that can be encouraged, the better for MOPS. (Le= slie will understand this very well, from her time as IAB chair)
=
I hope I'm able to contribute to this working group, if = it's approved by the IESG. Thanks for moving forward on this topic.=C2= =A0

Best wishes,

Spencer<= /div>
O= n Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 11:25 AM The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> wrote:
A new IETF WG has been proposed in the = Operations and Management Area. The
IESG has not made any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. Please send you= r
comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2019-10-28.

Media OPerationS (mops)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Current status: Proposed WG

Chairs:
=C2=A0 Leslie Daigle <ldaigle@thinkingcat.com>

Assigned Area Director:
=C2=A0 =C3=89ric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>

Operations and Management Area Directors:
=C2=A0 Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
=C2=A0 Ignas Bagdonas <ibagdona@gmail.com>

Technical advisors:
=C2=A0 Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>

Mailing list:
=C2=A0 Address: mops@iet= f.org
=C2=A0 To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo= /mops
=C2=A0 Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/brow= se/mops/

Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/mops/

Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter= -ietf-mops/

Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, leading to significant technology development across industries not traditionally thou= ght
of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as considerable<= br> quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of MOPS is o= n
identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are challenged b= y
these updated requirements.

MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing and proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operation=
of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the global<= br> Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context of<= br> this working group, media is considered to include the transport of video,<= br> audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly non-sequentially. The<= br> scope is media and media protocols=E2=80=99 interactions with the network, = but not
the technologies of control protocols or media formats.

MOPS provides a venue for both video industry and Internet engineering
experts to engage in discussion of video technology=E2=80=99s requirements = of
networking standards, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technology in video. Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will help identify candidate=
venues for their development.

The goals of MOPS include documenting existing protocol and operational iss= ues
with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for potential IETF=
work. The general process of elaboration through documentation will be for<= br> issues to be identified (on the mailing list) and presentations made at WG<= br> meetings. When topics merit more coherent documentation, MOPS will adopt working group documents to capture the information in Internet-Drafts. If t= he
working group consensus is that the material of the Internet-Draft is
generally useful for archival purposes, the WG will seek publication of the=
work items as RFCs. At any point =E2=80=94 from early discussion of topics,= through
later documentation stages =E2=80=94 MOPS may identify a more appropriate W= G for the
matter and/or document, and dispatch it.

With that in mind, MOPS will:

1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing
consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols.

2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify operational issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine solutions = or
workarounds to those issues.

3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and opportunities in<= br> media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and
technologies developed outside the IETF.

4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition (for example, fr= om
cameras and recording devices) and delivery.

5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media technologie= s
in the global Internet.

These activities should document media operational experience, including global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations.

In all cases of working with other organizations mentioned above, MOPS will=
work with existing liaison managers where the IETF has them, and informal connections with other organizations otherwise. If new formal liaison
relationships are required, MOPS will work with the IAB to help establish them.

Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or
technologies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing Protocols,=
DNS or Sub-IP Protocols) remain the responsibility of the groups or areas responsible for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS Working<= br> Group may provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and cooperate wit= h
those areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and deploymen= t
problems.

There must be a continuing expression of interest for the Working Group to<= br> work on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient interest i= n
the Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of<= br> Working Group items.

The IESG is establishing this working group on an experimental basis and intends to review it, for rechartering to continue or else closure, in 2 years.

Milestones:

=C2=A0 Feb 2020 - Draft of edge network operational considerations for stre= aming
=C2=A0 media

=C2=A0 Feb 2020 - Initial draft operational considerations for low latency<= br> =C2=A0 streaming video applications

=C2=A0 Mar 2020 - Draft documenting Streaming Video Alliance (SVA) reliance= on
=C2=A0 IETF protocols

=C2=A0 Mar 2020 - Draft documenting Society of Motion Picture and Televisio= n
=C2=A0 Engineers (SMPTE) protocol reliance on IETF protocols

=C2=A0 Jul 2020 - Last-call document on Streaming Video Alliance (SVA) reli= ance on
=C2=A0 IETF protocols (including explicit outreach to SVA)

=C2=A0 Jul 2020 - Last-call document on Society of Motion Picture and Telev= ision
=C2=A0 Engineers (SMPTE) protocol reliance on IETF protocols (including exp= licit
=C2=A0 outreach to SMPTE)

=C2=A0 Jul 2020 - Revised draft of edge network operational considerations = for
=C2=A0 streaming media

=C2=A0 Jul 2020 - Revised draft operational considerations for low latency<= br> =C2=A0 streaming video applications

=C2=A0 Nov 2020 - Last-call document on edge network considerations for str= eaming
=C2=A0 media

=C2=A0 Nov 2020 - Last-call document on operational considerations for low = latency
=C2=A0 streaming video applications

=C2=A0 Nov 2020 - Develop work items specific to media acquisition and deli= very

=C2=A0 Nov 2021 - IESG to decide whether continue, re-charter or close MOPS= WG


--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
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13:14:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D300112012D; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:14:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T1NIrRfqhRYn; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (mail-out2.in.tum.de [131.159.0.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C095120274; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix, from userid 107) id 965231C03FE; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:14:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (Authenticated sender: ott) by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F0FE1C03FC; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:14:32 +0200 (CEST) (Extended-Queue-bit tech_nqown@fff.in.tum.de) To: Stephan Wenger , "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , The IESG Cc: "mops@ietf.org" References: <157141595198.3845.16528921337633672515.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Joerg Ott Message-ID: <91cb4817-3126-2f57-c081-524b6efc076e@in.tum.de> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:14:31 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] WG Review: Media OPerationS (mops) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:14:42 -0000 Or maybe: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mops On 23.10.19 18:29, Stephan Wenger wrote: > Do you prefer MOPSes?  :-) > > S. > > (https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/mopses-order) > > > *From: *Mops on behalf of "Deen, Glenn > (NBCUniversal)" > *Date: *Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 09:28 > *To: *"Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Spencer Dawkins at > IETF , The IESG > *Cc: *"mops@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Mops] WG Review: Media OPerationS (mops) > > Spencer Wrote... > >      ...but I hope all the MOPSters ... > > Spencer's comments are good, except for "MOPSters" - that needs to not > ever become a thing. > > -glenn > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*Mops on behalf of Eric Vyncke (evyncke) > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2019 11:40 PM > *To:* Spencer Dawkins at IETF ; The IESG > > *Cc:* mops@ietf.org > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [Mops] WG Review: Media OPerationS (mops) > > Spencer, > > Thank you for your detailed reply. I can only support everything you > wrote 😉 > > Regards > > -éric > > *From: *Mops on behalf of Spencer Dawkins at > IETF > *Date: *Wednesday, 23 October 2019 at 02:38 > *To: *The IESG > *Cc: *"mops@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Mops] WG Review: Media OPerationS (mops) > > Dear IESG, > > Chartering MOPS as an IETF working group seems to be the Right Thing To > Do. I agree with previous discussions that some topics may not be at the > engineering level, but discussions on those topics will have a launching > pad, no matter where they end up, which will be a good thing. > > I'm sure everyone involved is aware of the struggles we've had to obtain > inputs and participation from operators (for longer than I've been > active at IETF). This is pushing that effort down a level (from IAB and > IESG interactions with NANOG, RIPE, and GSMA, among other places, over > the past three or four years), and I think that's a good thing as well. > > I saw discussion about what gets published and what doesn't get > published outside MOPS, and I would encourage the responsible AD to be > flexible as MOPS figures that out - we have had discussions with NOGs > about Best Current Operational Practices/BCOP documents, so the possible > set of choices MOPS could consider might be broader than the usual IETF > working group. > > The text in the proposed charter on liaison relationships is fine, as > far as it goes, but I hope all the MOPSters remember that the IETF > cooperates best when it and another organization have overlapping > participants - that's even more informal than "informal liaisons". The > more that can be encouraged, the better for MOPS. (Leslie will > understand this very well, from her time as IAB chair) > > I hope I'm able to contribute to this working group, if it's approved by > the IESG. Thanks for moving forward on this topic. > > Best wishes, > > Spencer > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 11:25 AM The IESG > wrote: > > A new IETF WG has been proposed in the Operations and Management > Area. The > IESG has not made any determination yet. The following draft charter was > submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. Please > send your > comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org > ) by 2019-10-28. > > Media OPerationS (mops) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Current status: Proposed WG > > Chairs: >   Leslie Daigle > > > Assigned Area Director: >   Éric Vyncke > > > Operations and Management Area Directors: >   Warren Kumari > >   Ignas Bagdonas > > > Technical advisors: >   Warren Kumari > > > Mailing list: >   Address: mops@ietf.org >   To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > >   Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/mops/ > > > Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/mops/ > > > Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ > > > Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media is widespread, > leading to > significant technology development across industries not > traditionally thought > of as Internet technology developers or operators, as well as > considerable > quantities of traffic on local and transit networks. The focus of > MOPS is on > identifying areas where existing protocols and/or networks are > challenged by > these updated requirements. > > MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; > existing and > proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and > operation > of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the > global > Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the > context of > this working group, media is considered to include the transport of > video, > audio, objects and any combination thereof, possibly > non-sequentially. The > scope is media and media protocols’ interactions with the network, > but not > the technologies of control protocols or media formats. > > MOPS provides a venue for both video industry and Internet engineering > experts to engage in discussion of video technology’s requirements of > networking standards, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technology > in video. Where new protocols are needed, MOPS will help identify > candidate > venues for their development. > > The goals of MOPS include documenting existing protocol and > operational issues > with media on the Internet, and identifying requirements for > potential IETF > work. The general process of elaboration through documentation will > be for > issues to be identified (on the mailing list) and presentations made > at WG > meetings. When topics merit more coherent documentation, MOPS will adopt > working group documents to capture the information in > Internet-Drafts. If the > working group consensus is that the material of the Internet-Draft is > generally useful for archival purposes, the WG will seek publication > of the > work items as RFCs. At any point — from early discussion of topics, > through > later documentation stages — MOPS may identify a more appropriate WG > for the > matter and/or document, and dispatch it. > > With that in mind, MOPS will: > > 1/ Solicit regular updates from other media technology developing > consortia/standards bodies working with IETF-developed protocols. > > 2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify > operational > issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine > solutions or > workarounds to those issues. > > 3/ Solicit discussion and documentation of the issues and > opportunities in > media acquisition and delivery, and of the resulting protocols and > technologies developed outside the IETF. > > 4/ Document operational requirements for media acquisition (for > example, from > cameras and recording devices) and delivery. > > 5/ Develop operational information to aid in operation of media > technologies > in the global Internet. > > These activities should document media operational experience, including > global Internet, inter-domain and within-domain operations. > > In all cases of working with other organizations mentioned above, > MOPS will > work with existing liaison managers where the IETF has them, and > informal > connections with other organizations otherwise. If new formal liaison > relationships are required, MOPS will work with the IAB to help > establish > them. > > Media operational and deployment issues with specific protocols or > technologies (such as Applications, Transport Protocols, Routing > Protocols, > DNS or Sub-IP Protocols) remain the responsibility of the groups or > areas > responsible for those protocols or technologies. However, the MOPS > Working > Group may provide input to those areas/groups, as needed, and > cooperate with > those areas/groups in reviewing solutions to MOPS operational and > deployment > problems. > > There must be a continuing expression of interest for the Working > Group to > work on a particular work item. If there is no longer sufficient > interest in > the Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the > list of > Working Group items. > > The IESG is establishing this working group on an experimental basis and > intends to review it, for rechartering to continue or else closure, in 2 > years. > > Milestones: > >   Feb 2020 - Draft of edge network operational considerations for > streaming >   media > >   Feb 2020 - Initial draft operational considerations for low latency >   streaming video applications > >   Mar 2020 - Draft documenting Streaming Video Alliance (SVA) > reliance on >   IETF protocols > >   Mar 2020 - Draft documenting Society of Motion Picture and Television >   Engineers (SMPTE) protocol reliance on IETF protocols > >   Jul 2020 - Last-call document on Streaming Video Alliance (SVA) > reliance on >   IETF protocols (including explicit outreach to SVA) > >   Jul 2020 - Last-call document on Society of Motion Picture and > Television >   Engineers (SMPTE) protocol reliance on IETF protocols (including > explicit >   outreach to SMPTE) > >   Jul 2020 - Revised draft of edge network operational > considerations for >   streaming media > >   Jul 2020 - Revised draft operational considerations for low latency >   streaming video applications > >   Nov 2020 - Last-call document on edge network considerations for > streaming >   media > >   Nov 2020 - Last-call document on operational considerations for > low latency >   streaming video applications > >   Nov 2020 - Develop work items specific to media acquisition and > delivery > >   Nov 2021 - IESG to decide whether continue, re-charter or close > MOPS WG > > > -- > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > > > From nobody Fri Oct 25 14:15:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FBDC120A14; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:12:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: evyncke@cisco.com, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157203793032.2724.16647304672359487123.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:12:10 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] mops - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 106 X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 21:12:18 -0000 Dear Amy Vezza, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. mops Session 1 (2:00 requested) Thursday, 21 November 2019, Morning Session I 1000-1200 Room Name: Collyer size: 250 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/sessions/mops.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Media OPerationS Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Amy Vezza Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Technology Overlap: quic cdni mboned pim mmusic httpbis doh taps dnssd hip homenet softwire dprive People who must be present: Eric Vyncke Leslie Daigle Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Oct 30 10:06:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD601208AA; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 10:06:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Message-ID: <157245520739.32588.18268012598112433098.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 10:06:47 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_charte?= =?utf-8?q?r-ietf-mops-00-03=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 17:06:47 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-mops-00-03: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Two small editorial comments: 1) "Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media" Not sure I understand the difference here. I would assume that a media that is sent over the Internet would also use some Internet-protocol...? 2)"existing protocols and/or networks are challenged by these updated requirements." "these" seems to be out of context now. And two questions: 1) "If there is no longer sufficient interest in the Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of Working Group items." Where/how is the list of Working Group Items maintain? Are we talking here about working group documents, or milestones, or something else (in a wiki maybe)? And what does removing mean? That it cannot be discussed on the mailing list anymore? That is will not get any presentation time? Something else? Not sure how easy it will be to enforce these things or what that means in practice... 2) The charter only talks about documenting problems. Does that mean any kind of BCP-like work is out of scope? From nobody Wed Oct 30 14:31:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8D6120A4D; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:31:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=thinkingcat.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RmiTZUv1j9d1; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crane.ash.relay.mailchannels.net (crane.ash.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.222.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20A961208F8; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:31:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170528C1429; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:31:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a30.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-92-150.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.92.150]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5C1C78C16E0; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:31:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a30.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:31:24 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Cure-Harbor: 3e12d618564d857b_1572471084811_2197547788 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1572471084811:882028050 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1572471084811 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a30.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a30.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB2280D84; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:31:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=thinkingcat.com; h=from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=thinkingcat.com; bh=e HpVBY6V6AkHUmqbVz7JBc/90tw=; b=bpjaoUlfCTsJ5uBw2u7omKEYhNHtFmPap aSiaelOtnxN1ymCGl9lVjMGRrOhS9wk7Nh3LRvkVirD/ybqbmgj7VAYg76syquh7 cT9mZCWe/4hhQ4k7WNqQyUzsxKgYBqTgCude9l+O+i4/GhOb5VWgQo7+azFCwWmC 17u8EqblYE= Received: from [192.168.1.57] (vtelinet-216-66-102-83.vermontel.net [216.66.102.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ldaigle@thinkingcat.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a30.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C9F36971CD; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:31:17 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a30 From: "Leslie Daigle" To: "Mirja =?utf-8?q?K=C3=BChlewind?=" Cc: "The IESG" , mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 17:31:03 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: <62E597EC-4FC1-461A-A2D8-C0ADA23C5114@thinkingcat.com> In-Reply-To: <157245520739.32588.18268012598112433098.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <157245520739.32588.18268012598112433098.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_ABC0829E-732E-4892-8EF4-F9E9D82621C6_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_charte?= =?utf-8?q?r-ietf-mops-00-03=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:31:34 -0000 --=_MailMate_ABC0829E-732E-4892-8EF4-F9E9D82621C6_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Thanks =E2=80=94 some thoughts, inline: On 30 Oct 2019, at 13:06, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker wrote: > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-mops-00-03: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut=20 > this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Two small editorial comments: > 1) "Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media" > Not sure I understand the difference here. I would assume that a media=20 > that is > sent over the Internet would also use some Internet-protocol...? Yeah, this text was the result of us trying to capture the opposite=20 case: when something uses the Internet-Protocol but doesn=E2=80=99t go o= ut=20 over the big-I Internet. > > 2)"existing protocols and/or networks are challenged by these updated > requirements." "these" seems to be out of context now. Could be deleted, indeed. > > And two questions: > > 1) "If there is no longer sufficient interest in the > Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of=20 > Working > Group items." > Where/how is the list of Working Group Items maintain? Are we talking=20 > here > about working group documents, or milestones, or something else (in a=20 > wiki > maybe)? And what does removing mean? That it cannot be discussed on=20 > the mailing > list anymore? That is will not get any presentation time? Something=20 > else? Not > sure how easy it will be to enforce these things or what that means in > practice... My thinking was along the lines of adopting items as formal working=20 group documents (draft-ietf-mops=E2=80=A6). If there is no longer intere= st,=20 the documents can be pursued as individual I-Ds, etc. For other items =E2=80=94 agenda time, etc =E2=80=94 I think it will requ= ire chair=20 discretion as to whether there is continued interest (and that can be=20 contested on the mailing list, of course). Yes, in practice, it=E2=80=99s going to take a bit of work=E2=80=A6 > > 2) The charter only talks about documenting problems. Does that mean=20 > any kind > of BCP-like work is out of scope? For operations, there is mention of documenting work arounds: =E2=80=9C2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify=20 operational issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine=20 solutions or workarounds to those issues.=E2=80=9D But, for most existing technology, BCP work would probably belong in a=20 different WG =E2=80=94 one focused on that technology. Leslie. --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=_MailMate_ABC0829E-732E-4892-8EF4-F9E9D82621C6_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Thanks =E2=80=94 some thoughts, inline:

On 30 Oct 2019, at 13:06, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatr= acker wrote:

M= irja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-mops-00-03: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
= email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/



---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Two small editorial comments:
1) "Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media"
Not sure I understand the difference here. I would assume that a media th= at is
sent over the Internet would also use some Internet-protocol...?

Yeah, this text was the result of us trying to capture th= e opposite case: when something uses the Internet-Protocol but doesn=E2=80= =99t go out over the big-I Internet.

2= )"existing protocols and/or networks are challenged by these updated
requirements." "these" seems to be out of context now.

Could be deleted, indeed.

A= nd two questions:

1) "If there is no longer sufficient interest in the
Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of Wo= rking
Group items."
Where/how is the list of Working Group Items maintain? Are we talking her= e
about working group documents, or milestones, or something else (in a wik= i
maybe)? And what does removing mean? That it cannot be discussed on the m= ailing
list anymore? That is will not get any presentation time? Something else?= Not
sure how easy it will be to enforce these things or what that means in practice...

My thinking was along the lines of adopting items as form= al working group documents (draft-ietf-mops=E2=80=A6). If there is no lo= nger interest, the documents can be pursued as individual I-Ds, etc.

=

For other items =E2=80=94 agenda time, etc =E2=80=94 I th= ink it will require chair discretion as to whether there is continued int= erest (and that can be contested on the mailing list, of course).

Yes, in practice, it=E2=80=99s going to take a bit of wor= k=E2=80=A6

2= ) The charter only talks about documenting problems. Does that mean any k= ind
of BCP-like work is out of scope?

For operations, there is mention of documenting work arou= nds:

=E2=80=9C2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify op= erational
issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine solution= s or
workarounds to those issues.=E2=80=9D

But, for most existing technology, BCP work would probabl= y belong in a different WG =E2=80=94 one focused on that technology.

Leslie.

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

--=_MailMate_ABC0829E-732E-4892-8EF4-F9E9D82621C6_=-- From nobody Thu Oct 31 07:11:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40AD120088; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:11:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <157253110976.30408.13208735732466740122.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:11:49 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on charter-ietf-mops-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 14:11:50 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-mops-00-03: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MOPS will solicit input on operational issues and practices; existing and proposed technologies related to the deployment, engineering, and operation of media streaming and manipulation protocols and procedures in the global Internet; and inter-domain and within-domain networking. In the context of This seems to parse as "solicit input on inter-domain and within-domain networking", which is a rather large scope. I understand that the intent is scoped to media, but the following text doesn't necessarily do so, from a grammatical perspective. From nobody Thu Oct 31 07:37:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBBD11201B7; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:37:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kA6OHK47mE5E; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B9BF1200FF; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.192.10.3] (helo=[10.149.0.180]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1iQBZi-0008Jw-5N; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:37:22 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <62E597EC-4FC1-461A-A2D8-C0ADA23C5114@thinkingcat.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:37:20 +0100 Cc: The IESG , mops-chairs@ietf.org, mops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0B30CABB-4066-46E3-9B02-72E20F6FC4A4@kuehlewind.net> References: <157245520739.32588.18268012598112433098.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <62E597EC-4FC1-461A-A2D8-C0ADA23C5114@thinkingcat.com> To: Leslie Daigle X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1572532647;2a46eb0f; X-HE-SMSGID: 1iQBZi-0008Jw-5N Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_charte?= =?utf-8?q?r-ietf-mops-00-03=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 14:37:30 -0000 Hi Leslie, Please see inline. > On 30. Oct 2019, at 22:31, Leslie Daigle = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Thanks =E2=80=94 some thoughts, inline: >=20 > On 30 Oct 2019, at 13:06, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker wrote: >=20 > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-mops-00-03: No Objection >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-mops/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Two small editorial comments: > 1) "Internet- and Internet-protocol-delivered media" > Not sure I understand the difference here. I would assume that a media = that is > sent over the Internet would also use some Internet-protocol...? >=20 > Yeah, this text was the result of us trying to capture the opposite = case: when something uses the Internet-Protocol but doesn=E2=80=99t go = out over the big-I Internet. >=20 > 2)"existing protocols and/or networks are challenged by these updated > requirements." "these" seems to be out of context now. >=20 > Could be deleted, indeed. >=20 > And two questions: >=20 > 1) "If there is no longer sufficient interest in the > Working Group in a work item, the item may be removed from the list of = Working > Group items." > Where/how is the list of Working Group Items maintain? Are we talking = here > about working group documents, or milestones, or something else (in a = wiki > maybe)? And what does removing mean? That it cannot be discussed on = the mailing > list anymore? That is will not get any presentation time? Something = else? Not > sure how easy it will be to enforce these things or what that means in > practice... >=20 > My thinking was along the lines of adopting items as formal working = group documents (draft-ietf-mops=E2=80=A6). If there is no longer = interest, the documents can be pursued as individual I-Ds, etc. I do wonder a bit how that would actually work. There was also a = discussion a while ago if it would be useful to make drafts as final. = The discussion was about changing the draft name and putting this into = the meta data of the draft, which kind of went nowhere. But maybe it = would be nice for working group chairs to put wg docs into a new state = like =E2=80=9Cfinal-version-but-will-not-be-published=E2=80=9D. This = could even come with the function that the doc stays on the wg = datatracker page even when expired and maybe even that the author cannot = update it anymore (without chairs approval). But I guess that's = something we would need to discuss in the IESG first. Just an idea from = my side... >=20 > For other items =E2=80=94 agenda time, etc =E2=80=94 I think it will = require chair discretion as to whether there is continued interest (and = that can be contested on the mailing list, of course). >=20 > Yes, in practice, it=E2=80=99s going to take a bit of work=E2=80=A6 Maybe it would also be useful to say something more concrete in the = charter; but to be honest I would also not really know what to say=E2=80=A6= maybe you have an idea. >=20 > 2) The charter only talks about documenting problems. Does that mean = any kind > of BCP-like work is out of scope? >=20 > For operations, there is mention of documenting work arounds: >=20 > =E2=80=9C2/ Solicit input from network operators and users to identify = operational > issues with media delivery in and across networks, and determine = solutions or > workarounds to those issues.=E2=80=9D >=20 > But, for most existing technology, BCP work would probably belong in a = different WG =E2=80=94 one focused on that technology. Okay. Was just double-check. I guess you could also say this explicitly = in the charter but it doesn=E2=80=99t have to=E2=80=A6 Thanks! Mirja >=20 > Leslie. >=20 > -- >=20 > Leslie Daigle > Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises >=20 > ldaigle@thinkingcat.com >=20