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From: "Leslie Daigle" <ldaigle@thinkingcat.com>
To: "Stephan Wenger" <stewe@stewe.org>
Cc: mops@ietf.org
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2021 18:12:33 -0400
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mops/-5KHPkqKKzRqOknF0zzxUHps1AU>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Liaison statement from SC 29/WG 3 to IETF MOPS WG (SC 29 N 19851)
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Thanks, Stephan.  Do we need any formal follow up, as it is for=20
information?

I haven=E2=80=99t seen any follow up discussion on the list, but hope tha=
t=20
people noticed:

> Invitation to the public workshop:
> We would like to invite your experts to participate in and contribute=20
> to a public (virtual) workshop we are planning to hold in early June.=20
> The goal is to discuss open issues and develop a proposed=20
> standardization plan for the following topics: encoder/packager=20
> synchronization, live media ingest and content storage, archiving and=20
> management. The results of the workshop will be presented to MPEG=20
> Systems WG at its coming meeting on July 12-16th, 2021 to help=20
> establishment of the standard development plan on these topics. We=20
> would appreciate it if you could announce this information to the=20
> experts in your organization and bring your agenda items or other=20
> ideas to help us understand the market needs regarding the topics.
>
> Planning and announcements for this workshop will be done through our=20
> mailing list, which you can subscribe at=20
> https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/synched-encoding.

Leslie.

On 17 Jun 2021, at 16:13, Stephan Wenger wrote:

> All:
> I assume you have seen this one or are otherwise aware of it?  If not,=20
> sorry for the delay in forwarding.
> S.
>
>
> From: Mayumi Koike <koike@itscj.ipsj.or.jp>
> Date: Monday, June 7, 2021 at 16:36
> To: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
> Cc: "young.L" <young.L@samsung.com>, "ali.begen"=20
> <ali.begen@ozyegin.edu.tr>, "joern.ostermann"=20
> <joern.ostermann@ieee.org>, kyuheonkim <kyuheonkim@khu.ac.kr>
> Subject: Liaison statement from SC 29/WG 3 to IETF MOPS WG (SC 29 N=20
> 19851)
>
> Dear Stephan,
> In accordance with Recommendations taken at the 3rd WG 3 Meeting,=20
> 2021-04-26/30, Online, I am pleased to send attached liaison statement=20
> to IETF.
> If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.
>
> Thank you for your cooperation.
>
> Best regards,
> Mayumi Koike
> -----
> Mayumi Koike (Ms.)
> Manager, ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 29
> IPSJ/ITSCJ (Espalier Inc.)
> 1-8-25-204, Fukaehonmachi, Higashinada,
> Kobe, Hyogo 658-0021 Japan
> Tel: +81-78-855-8425 Mobile: +81-80-3525-5930
> Mail: koike@itscj.ipsj.or.jp<mailto:koike@itscj.ipsj.or.jp>


> --=20
> Mops mailing list
> Mops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops

--=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises
ldaigle@thinkingcat.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------

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<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/xhtml; charset=3Dutf-8"=
>
</head>
<body>
<div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><div style=3D"white-space:normal">
<p dir=3D"auto">Thanks, Stephan.  Do we need any formal follow up, as it =
is for information?</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">I haven=E2=80=99t seen any follow up discussion on the li=
st, but hope that people noticed:</p>

</div>
<div style=3D"white-space:normal"><blockquote style=3D"border-left:2px so=
lid #777; color:#777; margin:0 0 5px; padding-left:5px"><p dir=3D"auto">I=
nvitation to the public workshop:<br>
We would like to invite your experts to participate in and contribute to =
a public (virtual) workshop we are planning to hold in early June. The go=
al is to discuss open issues and develop a proposed standardization plan =
for the following topics: encoder/packager synchronization, live media in=
gest and content storage, archiving and management. The results of the wo=
rkshop will be presented to MPEG Systems WG at its coming meeting on July=
 12-16th, 2021 to help establishment of the standard development plan on =
these topics. We would appreciate it if you could announce this informati=
on to the experts in your organization and bring your agenda items or oth=
er ideas to help us understand the market needs regarding the topics.<br>=

<br>
Planning and announcements for this workshop will be done through our mai=
ling list, which you can subscribe at <a href=3D"https://lists.aau.at/mai=
lman/listinfo/synched-encoding" style=3D"color:#777">https://lists.aau.at=
/mailman/listinfo/synched-encoding</a>.</p>
</blockquote></div>
<div style=3D"white-space:normal">

<p dir=3D"auto">Leslie.</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">On 17 Jun 2021, at 16:13, Stephan Wenger wrote:</p>

</div>
<div style=3D"white-space:normal"></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left:2px solid #777; color:#777; margin:0 0 5=
px; padding-left:5px"><div id=3D"63FFE3EA-A66E-40E6-8293-BC6C897FE99D">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div style=3D"page:WordSection1">
<p style=3D'font-family:"Yu Gothic", sans-serif; font-size:10.5pt; margin=
:0; text-align:justify' align=3D"justify"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>All:</span></p>
<p style=3D'font-family:"Yu Gothic", sans-serif; font-size:10.5pt; margin=
:0; text-align:justify' align=3D"justify"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I assume you have seen this one or are=
 otherwise aware of it?=C2=A0 If not, sorry for the delay in forwarding.<=
/span></p>
<p style=3D'font-family:"Yu Gothic", sans-serif; font-size:10.5pt; margin=
:0; text-align:justify' align=3D"justify"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>S.</span></p>
<p style=3D'font-family:"Yu Gothic", sans-serif; font-size:10.5pt; margin=
:0; text-align:justify' align=3D"justify"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>=C2=A0</span></p>
<p style=3D'font-family:"Yu Gothic", sans-serif; font-size:10.5pt; margin=
:0; text-align:justify' align=3D"justify"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p style=3D'font-family:"Yu Gothic", sans-serif; font-size:10.5pt; margin=
:0; text-align:justify' align=3D"justify"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:b=
lack">Mayumi Koike &lt;koike@itscj.ipsj.or.jp&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, June 7, 2021 at 16:36<br>
<b>To: </b>Stephan Wenger &lt;stewe@stewe.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>"young.L" &lt;young.L@samsung.com&gt;, "ali.begen" &lt;ali.beg=
en@ozyegin.edu.tr&gt;, "joern.ostermann" &lt;joern.ostermann@ieee.org&gt;=
, kyuheonkim &lt;kyuheonkim@khu.ac.kr&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Liaison statement from SC 29/WG 3 to IETF MOPS WG (SC 29 =
N 19851)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D'font-family:"Yu Gothic", sans-serif; font-size:10.5pt; margin=
:0; text-align:justify' align=3D"justify"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<p style=3D'font-family:"Yu Gothic", sans-serif; font-size:10.5pt; margin=
:0; text-align:justify; margin-bottom:12pt' align=3D"justify"><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear S=
tephan,</span></p>
<p style=3D'font-family:"Yu Gothic", sans-serif; font-size:10.5pt; margin=
:0; text-align:justify; margin-bottom:12pt' align=3D"justify"><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>In acc=
ordance with Recommendations taken at the 3rd WG 3 Meeting, 2021-04-26/30=
, Online, I am pleased to send attached liaison statement
 to IETF.<span style=3D"mso-style-name:apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n><br>
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.<br>
<br>
Thank you for your cooperation.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Mayumi Koike</span></p>
<p style=3D'font-family:"Yu Gothic", sans-serif; font-size:10.5pt; margin=
:0; text-align:justify; margin-bottom:12pt' align=3D"justify"><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>-----<=
br>
Mayumi Koike (Ms.)<br>
Manager, ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 29<br>
IPSJ/ITSCJ (Espalier Inc.)<br>
1-8-25-204, Fukaehonmachi, Higashinada,=C2=A0<br>
Kobe, Hyogo 658-0021 Japan<br>
Tel: +81-78-855-8425 Mobile: +81-80-3525-5930<br>
Mail:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:koike@itscj.ipsj.or.jp">koike@itscj.ipsj.or.=
jp</a></span></p>
<p style=3D'font-family:"Yu Gothic", sans-serif; font-size:10.5pt; margin=
:0; text-align:justify' align=3D"justify">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div></div></blockquote>
<div style=3D"white-space:normal">
<blockquote style=3D"border-left:2px solid #777; color:#777; margin:0 0 5=
px; padding-left:5px">
</blockquote><blockquote style=3D"border-left:2px solid #777; color:#777;=
 margin:0 0 5px; padding-left:5px"><p dir=3D"auto">-- <br>
Mops mailing list<br>
Mops@ietf.org<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops" style=3D"color:#77=
7">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops</a></p>
</blockquote></div>
<div style=3D"white-space:normal">

<p dir=3D"auto">-- </p>

<hr style=3D"background:#333; background-image:linear-gradient(to right, =
#ccc, #333, #ccc); border:0; height:1px" height=3D"1">

<p dir=3D"auto">Leslie Daigle<br>
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises</p>

<h2 style=3D"font-size:1.2em"><a href=3D"mailto:ldaigle@thinkingcat.com" =
style=3D"color:#3983C4">ldaigle@thinkingcat.com</a></h2>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Fri Jul  2 15:05:31 2021
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From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" <agenda@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Mops] mops - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 111
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Dear Leslie Daigle,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    mops Session 1 (2:00 requested)
    Tuesday, 27 July 2021, Session I 1200-1400
    Room Name: Room 4 size: 504
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/sessions/mops.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Media OPerationS
Area Name: Operations and Management Area
Session Requester: Leslie Daigle


Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 50
Conflicts to Avoid: 








People who must be present:
  Eric Vyncke
  Glenn Deen
  Jake Holland
  Kyle Rose
  Leslie Daigle
  Renan Krishna
  Spencer Dawkins

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------



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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mops/KPcpnt9BsAEuPdeBqhdqatENsXo>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Liaison statement from SC 29/WG 3 to IETF MOPS WG (SC 29 N 19851)
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Events without label "editorial"

Issues
------
* ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+2/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC3)
  2 issues created:
  - Considerations on cloud-based encoding, packaging and origin workflows =
(by acbegen)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues=
/81=20
  - Remove note in Sec 5 (by SpencerDawkins)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues=
/79=20

  3 issues received 3 new comments:
  - #81 Considerations on cloud-based encoding, packaging and origin workfl=
ows (1 by SpencerDawkins)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues=
/81=20
  - #26 historical charts of usage patterns with references (1 by SpencerDa=
wkins)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues=
/26=20
  - #14 Citations for existing industry standard terminology (1 by SpencerD=
awkins)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues=
/14=20

  2 issues closed:
  - Remove note in Sec 5 https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-st=
reaming-opcons/issues/79=20
  - Review ACKs section https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-str=
eaming-opcons/issues/72=20



Pull requests
-------------
* ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+1/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC0)
  1 pull requests submitted:
  - Delete note in Section 5 (by SpencerDawkins)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
0=20

  2 pull requests merged:
  - Delete note in Section 5
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
0=20
  - reviewed ACKS against mailing list traffic
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/7=
8=20


Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons

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<body>
<h1>Sunday July 11, 2021</h1>

<p>Events without label "editorial"</p>

<h2>Issues</h2>

<h3>ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+2/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC3)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">2 issues created:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#81 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/81">Considerations on cloud-based encoding, packaging and=
 origin workflows</a> (by acbegen) </li>
 =20
  <li>#79 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/79">Remove note in Sec 5</a> (by SpencerDawkins) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>3 issues received 3 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#81 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/81">Considerations on cloud-based encoding, packaging and=
 origin workflows</a> (1 by SpencerDawkins) </li>
 =20
  <li>#26 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/26">historical charts of usage patterns with references</=
a> (1 by SpencerDawkins) </li>
 =20
  <li>#14 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/14">Citations for existing industry standard terminology<=
/a> (1 by SpencerDawkins) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>2 issues closed:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#79 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/79">Remove note in Sec 5</a> </li>
 =20
  <li>#72 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/72">Review ACKs section</a> </li>
  </ul>



<h2>Pull requests</h2>
<h3>ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+1/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC0)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">1 pull requests submitted:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#80 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/80">Delete note in Section 5</a> (by SpencerDawkins) </li>
  </ul>


  <p>2 pull requests merged:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#80 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/80">Delete note in Section 5</a> </li>
 =20
  <li>#78 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/78">reviewed ACKS against mailing list traffic</a> </li>
  </ul>


<h2>Repositories tracked by this digest:</h2>
<ul class=3D"repos">
  <li><a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-=
opcons">https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons</a=
></li>
  </ul>
</body>
</html>

--===============1480974512329738024==--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Media OPerationS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Operational Considerations for Streaming Media
        Authors         : Jake Holland
                          Ali Begen
                          Spencer Dawkins
	Filename        : draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons-06.txt
	Pages           : 36
	Date            : 2021-07-12

Abstract:
   This document provides an overview of operational networking issues
   that pertain to quality of experience in streaming of video and other
   high-bitrate media over the Internet.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/

There is also an HTML version available at:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons-06.html

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons-06


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 11:42:45 -0400
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mops/vRNrKfDh64SI9s_YXLlqz47DrL4>
Subject: [Mops] Fwd: Video ingest over QUIC
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A relevant draft of potential interest to MOPS participants.

Kyle


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 11:37 AM
Subject: Video ingest over QUIC
To: quic@ietf.org <quic@ietf.org>, wish@ietf.org <wish@ietf.org>,
avt@ietf.org <avt@ietf.org>
Cc: Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>


Hi, for several years, Facebook has been using its own video ingest
protocol over QUIC from our apps to our infra.  While we=E2=80=99ve spoken =
about it
before, we just now published a draft documenting how it works:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.html.

The protocol leverages the advantages of QUIC transport, and features a
partially reliable mode using only QUIC v1 RST_STREAM.

We welcome your feedback

Thanks

-Alan Frindell

--0000000000007d119205c7031772
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">A r=
elevant draft of potential interest to MOPS participants.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-size:small">Kyle<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>=
From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername" dir=3D"auto">Alan Frindell</b> <span di=
r=3D"auto">&lt;afrind=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40fb.com=
@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 11:37 AM<br>Su=
bject: Video ingest over QUIC<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, <a=
 href=3D"mailto:wish@ietf.org">wish@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wish=
@ietf.org">wish@ietf.org</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:avt@ietf.org">avt@ietf.=
org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:avt@ietf.org">avt@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>Cc: Kir=
ill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br></div><=
br><br>Hi, for several years, Facebook has been using its own video ingest =
protocol over QUIC from our apps to our infra.=C2=A0 While we=E2=80=99ve sp=
oken about it before, we just now published a draft documenting how it work=
s:=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.ht=
ml" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/dr=
aft-kpugin-rush-00.html</a>.<br>
<br>
The protocol leverages the advantages of QUIC transport, and features a par=
tially reliable mode using only QUIC v1 RST_STREAM.<br>
<br>
We welcome your feedback<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
-Alan Frindell<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div>

--0000000000007d119205c7031772--


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Events without label "editorial"

Issues
------
* ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+0/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC6)
  2 issues received 6 new comments:
  - #81 Considerations on cloud-based encoding, packaging and origin workfl=
ows (5 by SpencerDawkins, gitnnelg, squarooticus)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues=
/81=20
  - #26 historical charts of usage patterns with references (1 by GrumpyOld=
Troll)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues=
/26 [wontfix]=20

  2 issues closed:
  - Update to caching systems https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mo=
ps-streaming-opcons/issues/53=20
  - Refactoring Adaptive Segmented Delivery subsections to focus on reasons=
 why signals are lower or higher than they should be https://github.com/iet=
f-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues/67=20



Pull requests
-------------
* ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+4/-3/=F0=9F=92=AC5)
  4 pull requests submitted:
  - mstock's "add section on ads" (fresh PR) (by englishm-ietf)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
5=20
  - Removed TBDs from text, captured them in #26 comment (by GrumpyOldTroll)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
4=20
  - attempted fix for #53 (caching update about challenges from low laten=
=E2=80=A6 (by GrumpyOldTroll)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
3=20
  - attempted fix for #67 (by GrumpyOldTroll)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
2=20

  3 pull requests received 5 new comments:
  - #85 mstock's "add section on ads" (fresh PR) (1 by SpencerDawkins)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
5=20
  - #83 attempted fix for #53 (caching update about challenges from low lat=
en=E2=80=A6 (2 by GrumpyOldTroll, SpencerDawkins)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
3=20
  - #82 attempted fix for #67 (2 by GrumpyOldTroll, SpencerDawkins)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
2=20

  3 pull requests merged:
  - Removed TBDs from text, captured them in #26 comment
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
4=20
  - attempted fix for #53 (caching update about challenges from low laten=
=E2=80=A6
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
3=20
  - attempted fix for #67
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
2=20


Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons

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<body>
<h1>Sunday July 18, 2021</h1>

<p>Events without label "editorial"</p>

<h2>Issues</h2>

<h3>ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+0/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC6)</h3>

  <p>2 issues received 6 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#81 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/81">Considerations on cloud-based encoding, packaging and=
 origin workflows</a> (5 by SpencerDawkins, gitnnelg, squarooticus) </li>
 =20
  <li>#26 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/26">historical charts of usage patterns with references</=
a> (1 by GrumpyOldTroll) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #=
ffffff; color: #000000">wontfix</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>2 issues closed:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#53 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/53">Update to caching systems</a> </li>
 =20
  <li>#67 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/67">Refactoring Adaptive Segmented Delivery subsections t=
o focus on reasons why signals are lower or higher than they should be</a> =
</li>
  </ul>



<h2>Pull requests</h2>
<h3>ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+4/-3/=F0=9F=92=AC5)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">4 pull requests submitted:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#85 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/85">mstock&#x27;s &quot;add section on ads&quot; (fresh PR)=
</a> (by englishm-ietf) </li>
 =20
  <li>#84 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/84">Removed TBDs from text, captured them in #26 comment</a=
> (by GrumpyOldTroll) </li>
 =20
  <li>#83 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/83">attempted fix for #53 (caching update about challenges =
from low laten=E2=80=A6</a> (by GrumpyOldTroll) </li>
 =20
  <li>#82 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/82">attempted fix for #67</a> (by GrumpyOldTroll) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>3 pull requests received 5 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#85 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/85">mstock&#x27;s &quot;add section on ads&quot; (fresh PR)=
</a> (1 by SpencerDawkins) </li>
 =20
  <li>#83 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/83">attempted fix for #53 (caching update about challenges =
from low laten=E2=80=A6</a> (2 by GrumpyOldTroll, SpencerDawkins) </li>
 =20
  <li>#82 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/82">attempted fix for #67</a> (2 by GrumpyOldTroll, Spencer=
Dawkins) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>3 pull requests merged:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#84 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/84">Removed TBDs from text, captured them in #26 comment</a=
> </li>
 =20
  <li>#83 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/83">attempted fix for #53 (caching update about challenges =
from low laten=E2=80=A6</a> </li>
 =20
  <li>#82 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/82">attempted fix for #67</a> </li>
  </ul>


<h2>Repositories tracked by this digest:</h2>
<ul class=3D"repos">
  <li><a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-=
opcons">https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons</a=
></li>
  </ul>
</body>
</html>

--===============7087811368392955860==--


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Hi,

A reminder that we are meeting on Tuesday, at noon PDT=20
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/session/28938.ics

We have an agenda:  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-111-mops/ ,=20
which will be updated with final details on Monday:


MOPS IETF 111 Virtual Agenda

July 27, 2021
Admin [5 min]

     Note well
     Agenda bash
     Jabber scribe
     Minutes taker (https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-111-mops#)

Industry News/Experiences [30 min]

     Streaming Video Alliance (SVA) 5G paper (Brian Stevenson) [duration=20
TBD]

WG Docs [20 min]

     Ops Cons (Jake Holland) [10 min]
     Media Operations Use Case for an Augmented Reality Application on=20
Edge Computing Infrastructure (Renan Krishna) [10 min]

Related IETF work [20 min]

     Packet Difference Significance for Media Scalability (Lijun Dong)=20
[10 min]

MOPS onwards [15min]

     Milestones =E2=80=94 revisit and review (see mailing list)

AoB [5min]

Leslie.

--=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises
ldaigle@thinkingcat.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------

--=_MailMate_77CDBB8F-C659-458B-AD89-24E727701216_=
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<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/xhtml; charset=3Dutf-8"=
>
</head>
<body>
<div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><div style=3D"white-space:normal">
<p dir=3D"auto">Hi,</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">A reminder that we are meeting on Tuesday, at noon PDT <a=
 href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/session/28938.ics" styl=
e=3D"color:#3983C4">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/session/2893=
8.ics</a></p>

<p dir=3D"auto">We have an agenda:  <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/agenda-111-mops/" style=3D"color:#3983C4">https://datatracker.ietf=
=2Eorg/doc/agenda-111-mops/</a> , which will be updated with final detail=
s on Monday:</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">MOPS IETF 111 Virtual Agenda</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">July 27, 2021<br>
Admin [5 min]</p>

<pre style=3D"background-color:#F7F7F7; border-radius:5px 5px 5px 5px; ma=
rgin-left:15px; margin-right:15px; max-width:90vw; overflow-x:auto; paddi=
ng:5px" bgcolor=3D"#F7F7F7"><code style=3D"background-color:#F7F7F7; bord=
er-radius:3px; margin:0; padding:0" bgcolor=3D"#F7F7F7">Note well
Agenda bash
Jabber scribe
Minutes taker (https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-111-mops#)
</code></pre>

<p dir=3D"auto">Industry News/Experiences [30 min]</p>

<pre style=3D"background-color:#F7F7F7; border-radius:5px 5px 5px 5px; ma=
rgin-left:15px; margin-right:15px; max-width:90vw; overflow-x:auto; paddi=
ng:5px" bgcolor=3D"#F7F7F7"><code style=3D"background-color:#F7F7F7; bord=
er-radius:3px; margin:0; padding:0" bgcolor=3D"#F7F7F7">Streaming Video A=
lliance (SVA) 5G paper (Brian Stevenson) [duration TBD]
</code></pre>

<p dir=3D"auto">WG Docs [20 min]</p>

<pre style=3D"background-color:#F7F7F7; border-radius:5px 5px 5px 5px; ma=
rgin-left:15px; margin-right:15px; max-width:90vw; overflow-x:auto; paddi=
ng:5px" bgcolor=3D"#F7F7F7"><code style=3D"background-color:#F7F7F7; bord=
er-radius:3px; margin:0; padding:0" bgcolor=3D"#F7F7F7">Ops Cons (Jake Ho=
lland) [10 min]
Media Operations Use Case for an Augmented Reality Application on Edge Co=
mputing Infrastructure (Renan Krishna) [10 min]
</code></pre>

<p dir=3D"auto">Related IETF work [20 min]</p>

<pre style=3D"background-color:#F7F7F7; border-radius:5px 5px 5px 5px; ma=
rgin-left:15px; margin-right:15px; max-width:90vw; overflow-x:auto; paddi=
ng:5px" bgcolor=3D"#F7F7F7"><code style=3D"background-color:#F7F7F7; bord=
er-radius:3px; margin:0; padding:0" bgcolor=3D"#F7F7F7">Packet Difference=
 Significance for Media Scalability (Lijun Dong) [10 min]
</code></pre>

<p dir=3D"auto">MOPS onwards [15min]</p>

<pre style=3D"background-color:#F7F7F7; border-radius:5px 5px 5px 5px; ma=
rgin-left:15px; margin-right:15px; max-width:90vw; overflow-x:auto; paddi=
ng:5px" bgcolor=3D"#F7F7F7"><code style=3D"background-color:#F7F7F7; bord=
er-radius:3px; margin:0; padding:0" bgcolor=3D"#F7F7F7">Milestones =E2=80=
=94 revisit and review (see mailing list)
</code></pre>

<p dir=3D"auto">AoB [5min]</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">Leslie.</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">-- </p>

<hr style=3D"background:#333; background-image:linear-gradient(to right, =
#ccc, #333, #ccc); border:0; height:1px" height=3D"1">

<p dir=3D"auto">Leslie Daigle<br>
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises</p>

<h2 style=3D"font-size:1.2em"><a href=3D"mailto:ldaigle@thinkingcat.com" =
style=3D"color:#3983C4">ldaigle@thinkingcat.com</a></h2>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Events without label "editorial"

Issues
------
* ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+0/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC4)
  2 issues received 4 new comments:
  - #81 Considerations on cloud-based encoding, packaging and origin workfl=
ows (2 by SpencerDawkins, acbegen)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues=
/81=20
  - #14 Citations for existing industry standard terminology (2 by SpencerD=
awkins, acbegen)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues=
/14=20



Pull requests
-------------
* ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+0/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC4)
  1 pull requests received 4 new comments:
  - #85 mstock's "add section on ads" (fresh PR) (4 by GrumpyOldTroll, Spen=
cerDawkins, englishm-ietf)
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8=
5=20


Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons

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<title>Weekly github digest (MOPS Activity Summary)</title>
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<h1>Sunday July 25, 2021</h1>

<p>Events without label "editorial"</p>

<h2>Issues</h2>

<h3>ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+0/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC4)</h3>

  <p>2 issues received 4 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#81 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/81">Considerations on cloud-based encoding, packaging and=
 origin workflows</a> (2 by SpencerDawkins, acbegen) </li>
 =20
  <li>#14 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/issues/14">Citations for existing industry standard terminology<=
/a> (2 by SpencerDawkins, acbegen) </li>
  </ul>




<h2>Pull requests</h2>
<h3>ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+0/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC4)</h3>

  <p>1 pull requests received 4 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#85 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-stream=
ing-opcons/pull/85">mstock&#x27;s &quot;add section on ads&quot; (fresh PR)=
</a> (4 by GrumpyOldTroll, SpencerDawkins, englishm-ietf) </li>
  </ul>



<h2>Repositories tracked by this digest:</h2>
<ul class=3D"repos">
  <li><a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-=
opcons">https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons</a=
></li>
  </ul>
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--===============3578963080191963771==--


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From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
To: Leslie Daigle <ldaigle@thinkingcat.com>, MOPS Working Group <mops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Mops] "See" you next week!
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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:53:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Mops] "See" you next week!
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--_000_F7FC0DC98B744132BD6479985E9759B8ciscocom_--


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Subject: [Mops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mops-ar-use-case-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Media OPerationS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Media Operations Use Case for an Augmented Reality Application on Edge Computing Infrastructure
        Authors         : Renan Krishna
                          Akbar Rahman
	Filename        : draft-ietf-mops-ar-use-case-02.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2021-07-28

Abstract:
   A use case describing transmission of an application on the Internet
   that has several unique characteristics of Augmented Reality (AR)
   applications is presented for the consideration of the Media
   Operations (MOPS) Working Group.  One key requirement identified is
   that the Adaptive-Bit-Rate (ABR) algorithms' current usage of
   policies based on heuristics and models is inadequate for AR
   applications running on the Edge Computing infrastructure.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mops-ar-use-case/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mops-ar-use-case-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mops-ar-use-case-02


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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Thread-Topic: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Subject: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Thread-Topic: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mops/LOBhkydLyAbTpjPSnd7aOuJRKSg>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:41:59 -0400
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To: "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>
Cc: Alan Frindell <afrind=40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Hi,

I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.  Client wifi stacks
sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency),
so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, it
could be fairly widely applicable.

That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is?  Would we need
something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option that
propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible?

Ian

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com> wrote:

> Hi Kirill, Alan,
>
>
>
> I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this side
> meeting either.
>
>
>
> But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based
> protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver
> frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower
> layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achieve
> its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios.
> Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was
> wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the
> QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better
> decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain
> streams.
>
>
>
> I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dibakar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
> *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@ietf.org
> *Cc:* Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific
>
>
>
> Link to draft agenda and video conference details:
> https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2021.07.03.md
>
>
>
> -Alan
>

--000000000000c1e03505c8342fc7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I can&#39;t answer for Alan, but my=
 belief is yes.=C2=A0 Client wifi stacks sometimes also do some reordering(=
and introduce the corresponding latency), so if we could design an indicati=
on that in-order delivery has no value, it could be fairly widely applicabl=
e.</div><div><br></div><div>That being said, I don&#39;t know what the righ=
t mechanism is?=C2=A0 Would=C2=A0we need something visible to a network or =
can we get away with a socket option that propagates to the local 5G networ=
k or Wifi firmware when possible?</div><div><br></div><div>Ian</div></div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed,=
 Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@int=
el.com">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2100085351194318429WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Hi Kirill, Alan, <u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">I could not attend th=
e call this week and wont be able to attend this side meeting either.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">But I had a general q=
uestion about the performance of all such QUIC based protocols over wireles=
s. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver frames in-order which sort=
 of recreates the HOL blocking problem
 at lower layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol =
to achieve its full performance gains at least in some congested network sc=
enarios. Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I =
was wondering if there could be
 a value to have some signaling defined in the QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol th=
at would allow lower layers to make better decision about whether to enable=
/disable in-order delivery for certain streams.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">I apologize in advanc=
e if this is not the right venue to ask questions.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Regards,<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Dibakar<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11pt"> QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Frindell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:avt@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">avt@ietf.org</=
a>; <a href=3D"mailto:wish@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">wish@ietf.org</a>; Q=
UIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank=
">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1=
8:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Video Ingest over QUI=
C Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Link to draft agenda =
and video conference details:
<a href=3D"https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials=
/agenda.2021.07.03.md" target=3D"_blank">
https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202=
1.07.03.md</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">-Alan<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--000000000000c1e03505c8342fc7--


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From: "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>
To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
CC: Alan Frindell <afrind=40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Thread-Topic: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Thread-Topic: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mops/7KS9wR6yLZt7TPA4jz9GnyM1Alk>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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From: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:15:44 -0700
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To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>,  Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all traffic, be it TCP
QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to reorder packets was
a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long time ago that have
been fixed in systems that care about performance. In today's world, L2 is
better off delivering any and all packets in the order they arrive instead
of introducing buffer bloat.

David

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon <fenix=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg>
wrote:

> The ideal would be to have public bits that were intended to be
> interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 could
> adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel.
> It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry ab=
out=E2=80=94it is
> also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80=9D.
>
> Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the
> application about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that
> this dovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw.
>
> A couple potentially interesting params are:
>
>   A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block
>   Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t=
 retry bit=E2=80=9D, but
> that is obviously not as expressive as throw out packet older than X
> microseconds)
>
>
> -=3DR
>
>
>
> *From: *QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ian Swett <ianswett=3D
> 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Date: *Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM
> *To: *"Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> *Cc: *Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <
> quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.co=
m
> >
> *Subject: *Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.  Client wifi stacks
> sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency=
),
> so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, =
it
> could be fairly widely applicable.
>
>
>
> That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is?  Would we need
> something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option th=
at
> propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible?
>
>
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Kirill, Alan,
>
>
>
> I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this sid=
e
> meeting either.
>
>
>
> But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based
> protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver
> frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower
> layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achie=
ve
> its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios.
> Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was
> wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the
> QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better
> decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain
> streams.
>
>
>
> I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dibakar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
> *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@ietf.org
> *Cc:* Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific
>
>
>
> Link to draft agenda and video conference details:
> https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2=
021.07.03.md
>
>
>
> -Alan
>
>

--000000000000f7617b05c8357d0a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all traff=
ic, be it TCP QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to reord=
er packets was a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long time ag=
o that have been fixed in systems that care about performance. In today&#39=
;s world, L2 is better off delivering any and all packets in the order they=
 arrive instead of introducing buffer bloat.<div><br></div><div>David</div>=
</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">=
On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon &lt;fenix=3D<a href=3D"mailto:=
40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_9125400846402922008WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The ideal would be to have public bits that were int=
ended to be interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 =
could adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel.<br>
It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry abou=
t=E2=80=94it is also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80=
=9D.<br>
<br>
Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the appli=
cation about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that this d=
ovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw.<br>
<br>
A couple potentially interesting params are:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block <=
br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon=
=E2=80=99t retry bit=E2=80=9D, but that is obviously not as expressive as t=
hrow out packet older than X microseconds)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 <br>
-=3DR<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: =
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt=
; on behalf of Ian Swett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Das, Dibakar&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel=
.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Alan Frindell &lt;afrind=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40fb.com@dmarc.ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&quot; &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&gt;,=
 Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">ikir@fb.=
com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/=
30 18:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I can&#39;t answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.=
=C2=A0 Client wifi stacks sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce t=
he corresponding latency), so if we could design an indication that in-orde=
r delivery has no value, it could be fairly widely
 applicable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That being said, I don&#39;t know what the right mec=
hanism is?=C2=A0 Would=C2=A0we need something visible to a network or can w=
e get away with a socket option that propagates to the local 5G network or =
Wifi firmware when possible?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ian<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Kirill, Alan,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I could not attend the call this week and wont be ab=
le to attend this side meeting either.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I had a general question about the performance o=
f all such QUIC based protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI M=
AC layers deliver frames in-order which sort of recreates
 the HOL blocking problem at lower layers. I would expect this to in turn p=
revent the QUIC protocol to achieve its full performance gains at least in =
some congested network scenarios. Considering that in-order delivery is mad=
e optional in 5G PDCP, I was wondering
 if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the QUIC (or R=
USH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better decision about=
 whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain streams.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I apologize in advance if this is not the right venu=
e to ask questions.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dibakar<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Frindell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:avt@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">avt@ietf.org</=
a>; <a href=3D"mailto:wish@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
wish@ietf.org</a>; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank=
">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1=
8:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:0=
0 UTC / 11 Pacific<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Link to draft agenda and video conference details:
<a href=3D"https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials=
/agenda.2021.07.03.md" target=3D"_blank">
https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202=
1.07.03.md</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Alan<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--000000000000f7617b05c8357d0a--


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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Thread-Topic: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Subject: [Mops] Draft minutes posted
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We've posted the draft minutes to the data tracker. Please take a look and
send any corrections or clarifications to the chairs before the deadline
(August 20).

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/minutes-111-mops-00

Thanks to Jake and Spencer for taking minutes!

Kyle (+Leslie)

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">We&=
#39;ve posted the draft minutes to the data tracker. Please take a look and=
 send any corrections or clarifications to the chairs before the deadline (=
August 20).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><a href=3D"ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/minutes-111-mops-00">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/minutes-111-mops-00</a></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Thanks to Jake and Spencer for=
 taking minutes!</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small=
"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Kyle (+L=
eslie)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></di=
v></div>

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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 18:53:01 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKKJt-erv-5waYiganL60eSO10v=Mok35ugzQPQ1Ya_E5K3KQQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind=40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>,  "MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, tsvwg-chairs <tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Hi, Dibakar,

I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions.


This is only my opinion, but this is a fine venue to ask questions. But it
may not be a good venue to resolve issues. Please take what follows as
suggestions.

There are people who understand some of the ins and outs of (for instance)
5G RAN, but honestly, there aren't a lot of them, so I'd start with 3GPP.

If this was a concern I had, the first place I'd stop is with Lionel Morand
(lionel.morand@orange.com), the 3GPP liaison to the IETF, to share this
concern. Lionel tends to be the person who sets agendas for the 3GPP-IETF
coordination team.

IETF participants are likely to say "if it hurts (performance) when you do
that, you probably should stop doing that". In my opinion, that's because
those participants don't want to special-case their protocols (especially
transport-level protocols) to deal with L2 characteristics that won't be
true for all underlying networking technologies.

The PILC working group, concluded about 20 years ago, put together a
nuanced discussion about L2 retransmissions in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3819#section-8.1. If anyone in the
IETF thought that reasoning needed to be updated, I'd start with the TSVWG
chairs, at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org - I believe this would be in scope for
them, and Gorry Fairhurst, one of the RFC 3819 co-authors, is also a TSVWG
chair, so that would jumpstart things.

The current TSV ADs might have opinions about what should happen, but the
TSVWG co-chairs can involve them if they need to be involved.

I've taken the liberty of copying Lionel and the TSVWG chairs, so if you do
reach out to them, they'll know what you're talking about.

I hope this is helpful, and good luck on helping IETF and 3GPP Do The Right
Thing. I know that's important.

If I can explain any of this further, please email me privately, just to
minimize the hit on people's inboxes.

Best,

Spencer (full disclosure: I co-chaired PILC with Aaron Falk)

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:17 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com> wrote:

> Hi Ian,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the response.
>
>
>
> I think having some signaling visible to the network layer could be useful
> for the transmitter in the wireless link (say, an AP) as it can take this
> information into account while preparing the packets. It can even be used
> in current WiFi (i.e., with in-order delivery) to optimize its scheduling
> for that stream for example, it can send a Ctrl frame soon to clear holes
> in the reorder buffer at the recipient.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dibakar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 12:42 PM
> *To:* Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> *Cc:* Alan Frindell <afrind=40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; quic@ietf.org;
> mops@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.  Client wifi stacks
> sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency),
> so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, it
> could be fairly widely applicable.
>
>
>
> That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is?  Would we need
> something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option that
> propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible?
>
>
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Kirill, Alan,
>
>
>
> I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this side
> meeting either.
>
>
>
> But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based
> protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver
> frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower
> layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achieve
> its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios.
> Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was
> wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the
> QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better
> decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain
> streams.
>
>
>
> I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dibakar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
> *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@ietf.org
> *Cc:* Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific
>
>
>
> Link to draft agenda and video conference details:
> https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2021.07.03.md
>
>
>
> -Alan
>
> --
> Mops mailing list
> Mops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
>

--000000000000585f5605c837b1d6
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi, Dibakar,</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;pad=
ding:0px"><div>I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask=
 questions.<br></div></blockquote><br></div><div>This is only my opinion, b=
ut this is a fine venue=C2=A0to ask questions. But it may not be a good ven=
ue to resolve issues. Please take what follows as suggestions.=C2=A0</div><=
div><br></div><div>There are people who understand some of the ins and outs=
 of (for instance) 5G RAN, but honestly, there aren&#39;t a lot of them, so=
=C2=A0I&#39;d start with 3GPP.</div><div><br></div><div>If this was a conce=
rn I had, the first place I&#39;d stop is with Lionel Morand (<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>), the 3GPP liai=
son to the IETF, to share this concern. Lionel tends to be the person who s=
ets agendas for the 3GPP-IETF coordination=C2=A0team.=C2=A0</div><div><br><=
/div><div>IETF participants are likely to say &quot;if it hurts (performanc=
e) when you do that, you probably should stop doing that&quot;. In my opini=
on, that&#39;s because those participants don&#39;t want to special-case th=
eir protocols (especially transport-level protocols) to deal with L2 charac=
teristics that won&#39;t be true for all underlying networking technologies=
.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The PILC working group, concluded about 20=
 years ago, put together a nuanced discussion about L2 retransmissions in=
=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3819#section-8.1"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3819#section-8.1</a>. If anyone i=
n the IETF thought that reasoning needed to be updated, I&#39;d start with =
the TSVWG chairs, at=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org">tsvwg-ch=
airs@ietf.org</a> - I believe this would be in scope for them, and Gorry Fa=
irhurst, one of the RFC 3819 co-authors, is also a TSVWG chair, so that wou=
ld jumpstart things.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The current TSV ADs mig=
ht have opinions about what should happen, but the TSVWG co-chairs can invo=
lve them if they need to be involved.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;=
ve taken the liberty of copying Lionel and the TSVWG chairs, so if you do r=
each out to them, they&#39;ll know what you&#39;re talking about.=C2=A0</di=
v><div><br></div><div>I hope this is helpful, and good luck on helping IETF=
 and 3GPP Do The Right Thing. I know that&#39;s important.=C2=A0</div><div>=
<br></div><div>If I can explain any of this further, please email me privat=
ely, just to minimize the hit on people&#39;s inboxes.=C2=A0</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Spencer (full disclosure: I co-ch=
aired PILC with Aaron Falk)</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:17 PM Das, Dibakar &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@int=
el.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Ian,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the response. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think having some signaling visible to the network=
 layer could be useful for the transmitter in the wireless link (say, an AP=
) as it can take this information into account while preparing the packets.=
 It can even be used in current WiFi
 (i.e., with in-order delivery) to optimize its scheduling for that stream =
for example, it can send a Ctrl frame soon to clear holes in the reorder bu=
ffer at the recipient.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dibakar <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswet=
t@google.com" target=3D"_blank">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 28, 2021 12:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Das, Dibakar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alan Frindell &lt;afrind=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40fb.com@dmarc.ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:=
quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mops@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>; Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/=
30 18:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I can&#39;t answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.=
=C2=A0 Client wifi stacks sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce t=
he corresponding latency), so if we could design an indication that in-orde=
r delivery has no value, it could be fairly widely
 applicable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That being said, I don&#39;t know what the right mec=
hanism is?=C2=A0 Would=C2=A0we need something visible to a network or can w=
e get away with a socket option that propagates to the local 5G network or =
Wifi firmware when possible?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ian<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Kirill, Alan,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I could not attend the call this week and wont be ab=
le to attend this side meeting either.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I had a general question about the performance o=
f all such QUIC based protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI M=
AC layers deliver frames in-order which sort of recreates
 the HOL blocking problem at lower layers. I would expect this to in turn p=
revent the QUIC protocol to achieve its full performance gains at least in =
some congested network scenarios. Considering that in-order delivery is mad=
e optional in 5G PDCP, I was wondering
 if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the QUIC (or R=
USH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better decision about=
 whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain streams.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I apologize in advance if this is not the right venu=
e to ask questions.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dibakar<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Frindell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:avt@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">avt@ietf.org</=
a>; <a href=3D"mailto:wish@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
wish@ietf.org</a>; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank=
">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1=
8:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:0=
0 UTC / 11 Pacific<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Link to draft agenda and video conference details:
<a href=3D"https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials=
/agenda.2021.07.03.md" target=3D"_blank">
https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202=
1.07.03.md</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Alan<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

-- <br>
Mops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Mops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000585f5605c837b1d6--


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From: "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind=40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>, "MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, tsvwg-chairs <tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
Thread-Index: AQHXg8cbuPEdfwjLOEm7z5CETlv+eKtYvX/AgAAMNYCAAAR74IAAQaiAgAAObxA=
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:51:04 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mops/Z7CJsV93Byi2ueA5LpBUQuymfzk>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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From: Zaheduzzaman Sarker <zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com>
To: "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN <lionel.morand@orange.com>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, tsvwg-chairs <tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org>, Alan Frindell <afrind=40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 10:08:49 -0500
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To: Zaheduzzaman Sarker <zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com>
Cc: "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, "MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN" <lionel.morand@orange.com>,  "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, tsvwg-chairs <tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org>,  Alan Frindell <afrind=40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>, Dorothy Stanley <DStanley@arubanetworks.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Hi again, Dibakar,

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 6:53 AM Zaheduzzaman Sarker <
zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi Dibakar,
>
>
>
> Thanks for asking the question.
>
>
>
> I think Spencer=E2=80=99s suggestion to involve 3GPP-IETF coordination te=
am makes
> lots of sense here, hence I think you are on right track.
>

I saw your response about being an IEEE 802 guy, and not a 3GPP guy, but
had two thoughts.

   - If you think this is a problem for IEEE 802, there's also an IEEE
   802-IETF coordination team, and they meet regularly to talk about topics
   from one organization that are likely of interest to the other
   organization. That's a bit more visible to the community than the 3GPP-I=
ETF
   coordination team, so you can get details here:
   https://www.iab.org/liaisons/iab-ieee-coordination/. Dorothy Stanley
   from IEEE 802.11 and Zahed Sarker, one of the TSV ADs, both, participate=
 in
   those meetings, so the coordination chain from IEEE 802.11 to the IETF T=
SV
   area is pretty short. (I took the liberty of copying Dorothy on my email=
,
   again, so that she'll be in the loop if you pursue this in IEEE 802.11).
   - I understand about wanting to start in IEEE 802 where you're active,
   but I see that you're using an Intel email address, so you might want to
   also touch base with someone at one of the 15 Intel companies that are
   listed as members of 3GPP (here
   <https://webapp.etsi.org/3gppmembership/Results.asp?SortMember=3DName&Di=
rMember=3DASC&SortPartner=3DName&DirPartner=3DASC&SortMarket=3DName&DirMark=
et=3DASC&SortObserver=3DName&DirObserver=3DASC&SortGuest=3DName&DirGuest=3D=
ASC&Name=3Dintel+&search=3DSearch>),
   to see if they're as concerned about this as you are. I do participate i=
n
   3GPP, so if you have problems figuring out who the actual Intel contacts
   are, please let me know privately, and I can see who attended recent
   meetings.

As Zahed said, we all wish for a single venue for discussions like this,
but maybe "three venues that communicate together well" could be a decent
substitute for that? =F0=9F=98=80

Again, best wishes on this. It's an important discussion to have, just like
it was in the 1990s, and answers do change, even in the TSV area.

Best,

Spencer


> In my personal opinion, if a signaling helps that would be related to
> congestion control, recovery and ack signaling technique in use rather th=
an
> specific to a particular protocol ( yes, QUIC comes with kind of right
> packaging of those techniques but those can be applied to other protocols
> as well). There are lot to discuss about it and requires right expertise =
(
> I can always wish there is a single venue for that =F0=9F=98=8A).
>
>
>
>
>
> BR
> Zahed
>
>
>
> On 2021-07-29, 06:51, "QUIC on behalf of Das, Dibakar" <
> quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of dibakar.das@intel.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Spencer,
>
>
>
> Thank you for the detailed response as this is the sort of guidance I was
> looking for. Thank you also for the references.
>
>
>
> Since the recommendation is to first raise the concern with layer-2
> liaison, I will do that. However, I should clarify that I work on WiFi
> standards and not 3GPP. So, I will discuss the problem a bit more
> internally and then bring it up to the 802.11 liaison if needed.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dibakar
>
>
>
> *From:* Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 4:53 PM
> *To:* Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> *Cc:* Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; Alan Frindell <afrind=3D
> 40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; quic@ietf.org; mops@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin <
> ikir@fb.com>; MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN <lionel.morand@orange.com>;
> tsvwg-chairs <tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting
> Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Hi, Dibakar,
>
>
>
> I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions.
>
>
>
> This is only my opinion, but this is a fine venue to ask questions. But i=
t
> may not be a good venue to resolve issues. Please take what follows as
> suggestions.
>
>
>
> There are people who understand some of the ins and outs of (for instance=
)
> 5G RAN, but honestly, there aren't a lot of them, so I'd start with 3GPP.
>
>
>
> If this was a concern I had, the first place I'd stop is with Lionel
> Morand (lionel.morand@orange.com), the 3GPP liaison to the IETF, to share
> this concern. Lionel tends to be the person who sets agendas for the
> 3GPP-IETF coordination team.
>
>
>
> IETF participants are likely to say "if it hurts (performance) when you d=
o
> that, you probably should stop doing that". In my opinion, that's because
> those participants don't want to special-case their protocols (especially
> transport-level protocols) to deal with L2 characteristics that won't be
> true for all underlying networking technologies.
>
>
>
> The PILC working group, concluded about 20 years ago, put together a
> nuanced discussion about L2 retransmissions in
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3819#section-8.1. If anyone in
> the IETF thought that reasoning needed to be updated, I'd start with the
> TSVWG chairs, at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org - I believe this would be in scope
> for them, and Gorry Fairhurst, one of the RFC 3819 co-authors, is also a
> TSVWG chair, so that would jumpstart things.
>
>
>
> The current TSV ADs might have opinions about what should happen, but the
> TSVWG co-chairs can involve them if they need to be involved.
>
>
>
> I've taken the liberty of copying Lionel and the TSVWG chairs, so if you
> do reach out to them, they'll know what you're talking about.
>
>
>
> I hope this is helpful, and good luck on helping IETF and 3GPP Do The
> Right Thing. I know that's important.
>
>
>
> If I can explain any of this further, please email me privately, just to
> minimize the hit on people's inboxes.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Spencer (full disclosure: I co-chaired PILC with Aaron Falk)
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:17 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Ian,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the response.
>
>
>
> I think having some signaling visible to the network layer could be usefu=
l
> for the transmitter in the wireless link (say, an AP) as it can take this
> information into account while preparing the packets. It can even be used
> in current WiFi (i.e., with in-order delivery) to optimize its scheduling
> for that stream for example, it can send a Ctrl frame soon to clear holes
> in the reorder buffer at the recipient.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dibakar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 12:42 PM
> *To:* Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> *Cc:* Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; quic@ietf.org;
> mops@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.  Client wifi stacks
> sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency=
),
> so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, =
it
> could be fairly widely applicable.
>
>
>
> That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is?  Would we need
> something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option th=
at
> propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible?
>
>
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Kirill, Alan,
>
>
>
> I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this sid=
e
> meeting either.
>
>
>
> But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based
> protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver
> frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower
> layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achie=
ve
> its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios.
> Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was
> wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the
> QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better
> decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain
> streams.
>
>
>
> I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dibakar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
> *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@ietf.org
> *Cc:* Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific
>
>
>
> Link to draft agenda and video conference details:
> https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2=
021.07.03.md
> <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D00adeccc-5f36d5ca-00adac57-86ee8=
6bd5107-7e78046795c61d1b&q=3D1&e=3Ddbabf05d-73c5-47c7-b0be-c37322499476&u=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fafrind%2Fdraft-rush%2Fblob%2Fmain%2Fmeeting-m=
aterials%2Fagenda.2021.07.03.md>
>
>
>
> -Alan
>
> --
> Mops mailing list
> Mops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
>
>

--0000000000008b914805c8447c33
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi again, Dibakar,</div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at=
 6:53 AM Zaheduzzaman Sarker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zaheduzzaman.sarker@eric=
sson.com" target=3D"_blank">zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"en-SE">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">Hi =
Dibakar,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
Thanks for asking the question.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
I think Spencer=E2=80=99s suggestion to involve 3GPP-IETF coordination team=
 makes lots of sense here, hence I think you are on right track.</span></p>=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I saw your response about bein=
g an IEEE 802 guy, and not a 3GPP guy, but had two thoughts.</div><div><ul>=
<li>If you think this is a problem for IEEE 802, there&#39;s also an IEEE 8=
02-IETF coordination team, and they meet regularly to talk about topics fro=
m one organization that are likely of interest to the other organization. T=
hat&#39;s a bit more visible to the community than the 3GPP-IETF coordinati=
on team, so you can get details here:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.iab.org/l=
iaisons/iab-ieee-coordination/" target=3D"_blank">https://www.iab.org/liais=
ons/iab-ieee-coordination/</a>. Dorothy Stanley from IEEE 802.11 and Zahed =
Sarker,=C2=A0one of the=C2=A0TSV ADs,=C2=A0both, participate in those meeti=
ngs, so the coordination chain from IEEE 802.11 to the IETF TSV area is pre=
tty short. (I took the liberty of copying Dorothy on my email, again, so th=
at she&#39;ll be in the loop if you pursue this in IEEE 802.11).=C2=A0</li>=
<li>I understand about wanting to start in IEEE 802 where you&#39;re active=
, but I see that you&#39;re using an Intel email address, so you might want=
 to also touch base with someone at one of the 15 Intel companies that are =
listed as members of 3GPP (<a href=3D"https://webapp.etsi.org/3gppmembershi=
p/Results.asp?SortMember=3DName&amp;DirMember=3DASC&amp;SortPartner=3DName&=
amp;DirPartner=3DASC&amp;SortMarket=3DName&amp;DirMarket=3DASC&amp;SortObse=
rver=3DName&amp;DirObserver=3DASC&amp;SortGuest=3DName&amp;DirGuest=3DASC&a=
mp;Name=3Dintel+&amp;search=3DSearch">here</a>), to see if they&#39;re as c=
oncerned about this as you are. I do participate in 3GPP, so if you have pr=
oblems figuring out who the actual Intel contacts are, please let me know p=
rivately, and I can see who attended recent meetings.=C2=A0</li></ul>As Zah=
ed said, we all wish for a single venue for discussions like this, but mayb=
e &quot;three venues that communicate together well&quot; could be a decent=
 substitute for that?=C2=A0=F0=9F=98=80</div><div><br><div>Again, best wish=
es on this. It&#39;s an important discussion to have, just like it was in t=
he 1990s, and answers do change, even in the TSV area.</div></div><div><br>=
</div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Spencer</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"en-SE"><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
In my personal opinion, if a signaling helps that would be related to conge=
stion control, recovery and ack signaling technique in use rather than spec=
ific to a particular
 protocol ( yes, QUIC comes with kind of right packaging of those technique=
s but those can be applied to other protocols as well). There are lot to di=
scuss about it and requires right expertise ( I can always wish there is a =
single venue for that
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Apple Color Emoji&qu=
ot;;color:rgb(0,112,192)">=F0=9F=98=8A</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,112,192)">).</span><br></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
BR<br>
Zahed<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">On 2021-07-29, 06:51, &qu=
ot;QUIC on behalf of Das, Dibakar&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@inte=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Hi Spencer,<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Thank you for the detaile=
d response as this is the sort of guidance I was looking for. Thank you als=
o for the references.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Since the recommendation =
is to first raise the concern with layer-2 liaison, I will do that. However=
, I should clarify that I work on WiFi standards and not 3GPP. So, I will d=
iscuss the problem a bit more internally
 and then bring it up to the 802.11 liaison if needed. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Dibakar<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><b>From:</b> Spencer Dawk=
ins at IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 28, 2021 4:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Das, Dibakar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" target=3D"_=
blank">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;; Alan Frindell &lt;afrind=3D<a href=3D"m=
ailto:40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a=
>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>=
; <a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>; Kir=
ill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">ikir@fb.com<=
/a>&gt;; MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>&gt;; tsvwg-chairs &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tsvwg-chairs@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr=
iday 7/30 18:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Hi, Dibakar,<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 30pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">I apologize in advance if=
 this is not the right venue to ask questions.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">This is only my opinion, =
but this is a fine venue=C2=A0to ask questions. But it may not be a good ve=
nue to resolve issues. Please take what follows as suggestions.=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">There are people who unde=
rstand some of the ins and outs of (for instance) 5G RAN, but honestly, the=
re aren&#39;t a lot of them, so=C2=A0I&#39;d start with 3GPP.<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">If this was a concern I h=
ad, the first place I&#39;d stop is with Lionel Morand (<a href=3D"mailto:l=
ionel.morand@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>), t=
he 3GPP liaison to the IETF, to share this concern. Lionel
 tends to be the person who sets agendas for the 3GPP-IETF coordination=C2=
=A0team.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">IETF participants are lik=
ely to say &quot;if it hurts (performance) when you do that, you probably s=
hould stop doing that&quot;. In my opinion, that&#39;s because those partic=
ipants don&#39;t want to special-case their protocols
 (especially transport-level protocols) to deal with L2 characteristics tha=
t won&#39;t be true for all underlying networking technologies.=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">The PILC working group, c=
oncluded about 20 years ago, put together a nuanced discussion about L2 ret=
ransmissions in=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc38=
19#section-8.1" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc=
3819#section-8.1</a>.
 If anyone in the IETF thought that reasoning needed to be updated, I&#39;d=
 start with the TSVWG chairs, at=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:tsvwg-chairs@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org</a> - I believe this would be i=
n scope for them, and Gorry Fairhurst, one of the RFC 3819 co-authors,
 is also a TSVWG chair, so that would jumpstart things.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">The current TSV ADs might=
 have opinions about what should happen, but the TSVWG co-chairs can involv=
e them if they need to be involved.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">I&#39;ve taken the libert=
y of copying Lionel and the TSVWG chairs, so if you do reach out to them, t=
hey&#39;ll know what you&#39;re talking about.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">I hope this is helpful, a=
nd good luck on helping IETF and 3GPP Do The Right Thing. I know that&#39;s=
 important.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">If I can explain any of t=
his further, please email me privately, just to minimize the hit on people&=
#39;s inboxes.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Spencer (full disclosure:=
 I co-chaired PILC with Aaron Falk)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3=
:17 PM Das, Dibakar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"=
_blank">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0c=
m 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Hi Ian,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Thanks for the response. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
I think having some signaling visible to the network layer could be useful =
for the transmitter in the wireless link (say, an AP) as it can take this i=
nformation into account while preparing the packets. It can even be used in=
 current WiFi (i.e., with in-order
 delivery) to optimize its scheduling for that stream for example, it can s=
end a Ctrl frame soon to clear holes in the reorder buffer at the recipient=
.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Dibakar <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<b>From:</b> Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" target=3D=
"_blank">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 28, 2021 12:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Das, Dibakar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alan Frindell &lt;afrind=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40fb.com@dmarc.ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
mops@ietf.org</a>; Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/=
30 18:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
I can&#39;t answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.=C2=A0 Client wifi stacks=
 sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency)=
, so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, =
it could be fairly widely applicable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
That being said, I don&#39;t know what the right mechanism is?=C2=A0 Would=
=C2=A0we need something visible to a network or can we get away with a sock=
et option that propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when pos=
sible?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Ian<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.=
das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0c=
m 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Hi Kirill, Alan, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this side =
meeting either.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based p=
rotocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver frame=
s in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower layers=
. I would expect this to in turn
 prevent the QUIC protocol to achieve its full performance gains at least i=
n some congested network scenarios. Considering that in-order delivery is m=
ade optional in 5G PDCP, I was wondering if there could be a value to have =
some signaling defined in the QUIC
 (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better decision=
 about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain streams.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. <u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Dibakar<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Frindell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:avt@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">avt@ietf.org</=
a>; <a href=3D"mailto:wish@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
wish@ietf.org</a>; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank=
">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1=
8:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
Link to draft agenda and video conference details: <a href=3D"https://prote=
ct2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D00adeccc-5f36d5ca-00adac57-86ee86bd5107-7e780467=
95c61d1b&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3Ddbabf05d-73c5-47c7-b0be-c37322499476&amp;u=3Dhtt=
ps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fafrind%2Fdraft-rush%2Fblob%2Fmain%2Fmeeting-materia=
ls%2Fagenda.2021.07.03.md" target=3D"_blank">
https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202=
1.07.03.md</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
-Alan<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">-- <br>
Mops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Mops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000008b914805c8447c33--


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From: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>
To: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, =?utf-8?B?QW5uYSBCcnVuc3Ryw7Zt?= <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>, "nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" <nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de>, "markus.amend@telekom.de" <markus.amend@telekom.de>
CC: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Thread-Topic: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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From: Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>
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To: "Holland, Jake" <jholland=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Anna_Brunstr=C3=B6m?= <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>,  "nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" <nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de>,  "markus.amend@telekom.de" <markus.amend@telekom.de>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>,  "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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--000000000000a34c3605c837c28d
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Speaking as an individual, a couple comments inline adding to what Jake is
saying.

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:58 PM Holland, Jake <jholland=3D
40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> And yet, we still can see network buffering to maintain packet ordering i=
n
> new work today, including work specifically targeted at QUIC.
>
>
>
> In the =E2=80=9CCCID5=E2=80=9D ANRW talk from Monday=E2=80=99s 2nd sessio=
n, a reordering buffer
> was mentioned in the transparent proxy for the MP-DCCP tunnel they=E2=80=
=99re
> wrapping QUIC packets in to get multipath traffic-splitting during
> transport within wireless carriers (a proposal coming soon to tsvwg):
>
> https://irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html#:~:text=3Dnathalie%20romo%20moren=
o
>
>
>
> I asked specifically about the reordering buffer at the mic, since this
> kind of thing has made me sad before. (There was also a side discussion i=
n
> the chat.)  I got the impression they believe they=E2=80=99re seeing some=
 benefits
> to apps by including this reordering buffer in the network, citing the
> wider range of reordering that you get for split-path transport (as
> compared to the L2 forwarding case).
>

I would question whether any application-level benefits could be measured
by the network intermediaries. We (i.e., endpoint owners) have a hard
enough time surmising application-level improvements from _endpoint_
transport metrics, let alone trying to intuit those as a network
intermediary without any application context whatsoever. Making
network-level decisions based on limited information is a recipe for
"optimizations" that seem good on paper and for a limited set of metrics
but are worse in reality. This is exactly the kind of thing that has led to
the proliferation of TCP session terminating PEPs, which have overall been
a real impedance to making improvements with TCP on the Internet.


>
>
> If there=E2=80=99s endpoint implementations that aren=E2=80=99t doing a g=
ood enough job
> here and therefore we=E2=80=99re seeing new network deployments that intr=
oduce
> buffering because their measurements indicate it=E2=80=99s helpful on com=
mon use
> cases, it could be worthwhile to get this straightened out before it gets
> too normalized and we start having networks reintroduce hol-blocking in a
> way that hurts some QUIC use cases in the name of helping others.
>
>
>
> Although I expect this can and should be solved at the endpoints, if ther=
e
> is data showing that the ordering solves a real problem with current
> implementations, reasonable people can reasonably conclude that network
> buffering to maintain packet order is a good idea.
>

>
> (Note: UDP client-side port might be an option for a network-visible
> signal that might =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D for many (hopefully most?) =
ordering schemes
> to avoid buffering for ordering, but it might need some API support and i=
t
> might lead to some other kinds of ugly nat problems if there=E2=80=99s to=
o many
> flows doing it...)
>
>
>
> +Anna, Nathalie and Markus.  Hopefully they can comment on this also.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jake
>
>
>
> *From: *David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wed,2021-07-28 at 2:16 PM
> *To: *Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
> *Cc: *Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>,
> "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>, "
> quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting
> Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all traffic, be it TCP
> QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to reorder packets w=
as
> a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long time ago that have
> been fixed in systems that care about performance. In today's world, L2 i=
s
> better off delivering any and all packets in the order they arrive instea=
d
> of introducing buffer bloat.
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon <fenix=3D
> 40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> The ideal would be to have public bits that were intended to be
> interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 could
> adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel.
> It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry ab=
out=E2=80=94it is
> also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80=9D.
>
> Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the
> application about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that
> this dovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw.
>
> A couple potentially interesting params are:
>
>   A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block
>   Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t=
 retry bit=E2=80=9D, but
> that is obviously not as expressive as throw out packet older than X
> microseconds)
>
>
> -=3DR
>
>
>
> *From: *QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ian Swett <ianswett=3D
> 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Date: *Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM
> *To: *"Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> *Cc: *Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <
> quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.co=
m
> >
> *Subject: *Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.  Client wifi stacks
> sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency=
),
> so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, =
it
> could be fairly widely applicable.
>
>
>
> That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is?  Would we need
> something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option th=
at
> propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible?
>
>
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Kirill, Alan,
>
>
>
> I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this sid=
e
> meeting either.
>
>
>
> But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based
> protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver
> frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower
> layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achie=
ve
> its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios.
> Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was
> wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the
> QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better
> decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain
> streams.
>
>
>
> I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dibakar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
> *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@ietf.org
> *Cc:* Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific
>
>
>
> Link to draft agenda and video conference details:
> https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2=
021.07.03.md
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/mai=
n/meeting-materials/agenda.2021.07.03.md__;!!GjvTz_vk!E0SzSsjcIQqc-TDdIf5-y=
7XjoWfnEA-7r9fdRAjEKZXc1GYhGomlKIXMwmDZ0Ls$>
>
>
>
> -Alan
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Speaking as an individual, a couple comments inline a=
dding to what Jake is saying.<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:58 PM Holland, J=
ake &lt;jholland=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40akamai.=
com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex">





<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-1464004179577427090WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And yet, we still can see network buffering to maint=
ain packet ordering in new work today, including work specifically targeted=
 at QUIC.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the =E2=80=9CCCID5=E2=80=9D ANRW talk from Monday=
=E2=80=99s 2<sup>nd</sup> session, a reordering buffer was mentioned in the=
 transparent proxy for the MP-DCCP tunnel they=E2=80=99re wrapping QUIC pac=
kets in to get multipath traffic-splitting during transport within
 wireless carriers (a proposal coming soon to tsvwg):<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html#:=
~:text=3Dnathalie%20romo%20moreno" target=3D"_blank">https://irtf.org/anrw/=
2021/program.html#:~:text=3Dnathalie%20romo%20moreno</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I asked specifically about the reordering buffer at =
the mic, since this kind of thing has made me sad before. (There was also a=
 side discussion in the chat.)=C2=A0 I got the impression they believe they=
=E2=80=99re seeing some benefits to apps by including
 this reordering buffer in the network, citing the wider range of reorderin=
g that you get for split-path transport (as compared to the L2 forwarding c=
ase).</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I would question whet=
her any application-level benefits could be measured by the network interme=
diaries. We (i.e., endpoint owners) have a hard enough time surmising appli=
cation-level improvements from _endpoint_ transport metrics, let alone tryi=
ng to intuit those as a network intermediary without any application contex=
t whatsoever. Making network-level decisions based on limited information i=
s a recipe for &quot;optimizations&quot; that seem good on paper and for a =
limited set of metrics but are worse in reality. This is exactly the kind o=
f thing that has led to the proliferation of TCP session terminating PEPs, =
which have overall been a real impedance to making improvements with TCP on=
 the Internet.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang=3D"EN-US"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail-m_-1464004179577427090WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If there=E2=80=99s endpoint implementations that are=
n=E2=80=99t doing a good enough job here and therefore we=E2=80=99re seeing=
 new network deployments that introduce buffering because their measurement=
s indicate it=E2=80=99s helpful on common use cases, it could be worthwhile
 to get this straightened out before it gets too normalized and we start ha=
ving networks reintroduce hol-blocking in a way that hurts some QUIC use ca=
ses in the name of helping others.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Although I expect this can and should be solved at t=
he endpoints, if there is data showing that the ordering solves a real prob=
lem with current implementations, reasonable people can reasonably conclude=
 that network buffering to maintain
 packet order is a good idea.</p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" =
lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-1464004179577427090WordSection1"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(Note: UDP client-side port might be an option for a=
 network-visible signal that might =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D for many (ho=
pefully most?) ordering schemes to avoid buffering for ordering, but it mig=
ht need some API support and it might lead to some
 other kinds of ugly nat problems if there=E2=80=99s too many flows doing i=
t...)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+Anna, Nathalie and Markus.=C2=A0 Hopefully they can=
 comment on this also.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jake<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentcolor currentcolor;borde=
r-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: =
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">David Schinazi &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dschinazi.ietf@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wed,2021-07-28 at 2:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" target=3D"_=
blank">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Das, Dibakar&quot; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel=
.com</a>&gt;, Alan Frindell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afrind@fb.com" target=3D"=
_blank">afrind@fb.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr=
iday 7/30 18:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all=
 traffic, be it TCP QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to=
 reorder packets was a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long t=
ime ago that have been fixed in systems
 that care about performance. In today&#39;s world, L2 is better off delive=
ring any and all packets in the order they arrive instead of introducing bu=
ffer bloat.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">David<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon &lt;fen=
ix=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40fb.com@=
dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The ideal would be to have public bits that were int=
ended to be interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 =
could adapted appropriately without reinventing the
 wheel.<br>
It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry abou=
t=E2=80=94it is also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80=
=9D.<br>
<br>
Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the appli=
cation about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that this d=
ovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw.<br>
<br>
A couple potentially interesting params are:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block
<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon=
=E2=80=99t retry bit=E2=80=9D, but that is obviously not as expressive as t=
hrow out packet older than X microseconds)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
<br>
-=3DR<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentcolor currentcolor;borde=
r-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt=
; on behalf of Ian Swett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Das, Dibakar&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel=
.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Alan Frindell &lt;afrind=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40fb.com@dmarc.ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&quot;
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;, Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">ikir@=
fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/=
30 18:00 UTC</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I can&#39;t answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.=
=C2=A0 Client wifi stacks sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce t=
he corresponding latency), so if we could design an indication
 that in-order delivery has no value, it could be fairly widely applicable.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That being said, I don&#39;t know what the right mec=
hanism is?=C2=A0 Would=C2=A0we need something visible to a network or can w=
e get away with a socket option that propagates to the local 5G
 network or Wifi firmware when possible?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ian<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Kirill, Alan,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I could not attend the call this week and wont be ab=
le to attend this side meeting either.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I had a general question about the performance o=
f all such QUIC based protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI M=
AC layers deliver frames in-order which sort of recreates
 the HOL blocking problem at lower layers. I would expect this to in turn p=
revent the QUIC protocol to achieve its full performance gains at least in =
some congested network scenarios. Considering that in-order delivery is mad=
e optional in 5G PDCP, I was wondering
 if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the QUIC (or R=
USH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better decision about=
 whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain streams.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I apologize in advance if this is not the right venu=
e to ask questions.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dibakar<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;borde=
r-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Frindell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:avt@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">avt@ietf.org</=
a>; <a href=3D"mailto:wish@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
wish@ietf.org</a>; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank=
">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1=
8:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:0=
0 UTC / 11 Pacific<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Link to draft agenda and video conference details:
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/afrind/draft-rush/=
blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2021.07.03.md__;!!GjvTz_vk!E0SzSsjcIQqc-=
TDdIf5-y7XjoWfnEA-7r9fdRAjEKZXc1GYhGomlKIXMwmDZ0Ls$" target=3D"_blank">
https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202=
1.07.03.md</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Alan<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000a34c3605c837c28d--


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From: =?utf-8?B?QW5uYSBCcnVuc3Ryw7Zt?= <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>
To: Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>, "Holland, Jake" <jholland=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" <nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de>, "markus.amend@telekom.de" <markus.amend@telekom.de>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Thread-Topic: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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From: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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From: Sergio Garcia Murillo <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 18:32:56 +0200
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Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Anna_Brunstr=C3=B6m?= <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>,  Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, mops@ietf.org,  Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>,  nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de, David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>,  markus.amend@telekom.de, quic@ietf.org, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Just for clarification, if this needs to be handled, this should be handled
at QUIC level and it is not an specific problem for the Media over QUIC
protocol, right?

El jue., 29 jul. 2021 18:15, Holland, Jake <jholland=3D
40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> escribi=C3=B3:

> Hi Anna,
>
>
>
> (And replacing Nathalie=E2=80=99s email with the correct one, hopefully)
>
>
>
> That was not quite my understanding, no.  Sorry if I opened this
> discussion poorly.  In Nathalie=E2=80=99s initial response, she clarified=
 that it=E2=80=99s
> configurable, including the option to disable the reordering buffer.
>
>
>
> However, I understood this as an option available to the service provider
> operating the MP-DCCP split path proxies that tunnel the carried traffic,
> not necessarily to the endpoints or the applications having their traffic
> split.
>
>
>
> Depending on how it=E2=80=99s deployed, this may or may not be a problem =
for
> particular endpoints, but I couldn=E2=80=99t tell if there was an obvious=
 or easy
> way for an application to select the use case (particularly one that is
> just trying to use QUIC and transparently getting traffic-splitting
> delivery) in a way that the operator will understand, so I thought it bes=
t
> to raise the point for discussion.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jake
>
>
>
> *From: *Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>
> *Date: *Wed,2021-07-28 at 5:31 PM
> *To: *Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>, "Holland, Jake" <
> jholland@akamai.com>
> *Cc: *David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <
> fenix@fb.com>, "nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" <
> nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de>, "markus.amend@telekom.de" <
> markus.amend@telekom.de>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org=
"
> <mops@ietf.org>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <
> afrind@fb.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.co=
m
> >
> *Subject: *RE: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting
> Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> I think multipath and L2 are a bit different as multipath may lead to
> large amounts of reordering and delay variations. Not all
> applications/implementations may handle this well. But you should of cour=
se
> also have the possibility to just pass the packets on, and I agree that i=
n
> many cases this will be the best.
>
>
>
> In the context of MP-DCCP, both scheduling and reordering are modular
> components so you can certainly choose to pass the packets on without
> delay. The need for supporting this is also stated in the draft. But for
> the multipath case, I think it is useful to also have the ability to redu=
ce
> reordering if needed. For ATSSS I guess weather that is desirable or not
> may be controlled by the selected mode.
>
>
>
> @Jake: if you understood our conversation in ANRW as suggesting that
> MP-DCCP should always reorder, that was a misunderstanding.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Anna
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* den 29 juli 2021 01:58
> *To:* Holland, Jake <jholland=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Cc:* David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>; Roberto Peon <
> fenix@fb.com>; Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>;
> nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de; markus.amend@telekom.de; Ian Swett <
> ianswett@google.com>; mops@ietf.org; Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>=
;
> Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>; quic@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting
> Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Speaking as an individual, a couple comments inline adding to what Jake i=
s
> saying.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:58 PM Holland, Jake <jholland=3D
> 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> And yet, we still can see network buffering to maintain packet ordering i=
n
> new work today, including work specifically targeted at QUIC.
>
>
>
> In the =E2=80=9CCCID5=E2=80=9D ANRW talk from Monday=E2=80=99s 2nd sessio=
n, a reordering buffer
> was mentioned in the transparent proxy for the MP-DCCP tunnel they=E2=80=
=99re
> wrapping QUIC packets in to get multipath traffic-splitting during
> transport within wireless carriers (a proposal coming soon to tsvwg):
>
> https://irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html#:~:text=3Dnathalie%20romo%20moren=
o
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html*:*:te=
xt=3Dnathalie*20romo*20moreno__;I34lJQ!!GjvTz_vk!AVpyqSAj3HYNjnpUTryB_6DdEl=
ZmzNy4D78JApMaTuSanBUHBhhvFtmh1HJdILQ$>
>
>
>
> I asked specifically about the reordering buffer at the mic, since this
> kind of thing has made me sad before. (There was also a side discussion i=
n
> the chat.)  I got the impression they believe they=E2=80=99re seeing some=
 benefits
> to apps by including this reordering buffer in the network, citing the
> wider range of reordering that you get for split-path transport (as
> compared to the L2 forwarding case).
>
>
>
> I would question whether any application-level benefits could be measured
> by the network intermediaries. We (i.e., endpoint owners) have a hard
> enough time surmising application-level improvements from _endpoint_
> transport metrics, let alone trying to intuit those as a network
> intermediary without any application context whatsoever. Making
> network-level decisions based on limited information is a recipe for
> "optimizations" that seem good on paper and for a limited set of metrics
> but are worse in reality. This is exactly the kind of thing that has led =
to
> the proliferation of TCP session terminating PEPs, which have overall bee=
n
> a real impedance to making improvements with TCP on the Internet.
>
>
>
>
>
> If there=E2=80=99s endpoint implementations that aren=E2=80=99t doing a g=
ood enough job
> here and therefore we=E2=80=99re seeing new network deployments that intr=
oduce
> buffering because their measurements indicate it=E2=80=99s helpful on com=
mon use
> cases, it could be worthwhile to get this straightened out before it gets
> too normalized and we start having networks reintroduce hol-blocking in a
> way that hurts some QUIC use cases in the name of helping others.
>
>
>
> Although I expect this can and should be solved at the endpoints, if ther=
e
> is data showing that the ordering solves a real problem with current
> implementations, reasonable people can reasonably conclude that network
> buffering to maintain packet order is a good idea.
>
>
>
> (Note: UDP client-side port might be an option for a network-visible
> signal that might =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D for many (hopefully most?) =
ordering schemes
> to avoid buffering for ordering, but it might need some API support and i=
t
> might lead to some other kinds of ugly nat problems if there=E2=80=99s to=
o many
> flows doing it...)
>
>
>
> +Anna, Nathalie and Markus.  Hopefully they can comment on this also.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jake
>
>
>
> *From: *David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wed,2021-07-28 at 2:16 PM
> *To: *Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
> *Cc: *Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>,
> "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>, "
> quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting
> Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all traffic, be it TCP
> QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to reorder packets w=
as
> a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long time ago that have
> been fixed in systems that care about performance. In today's world, L2 i=
s
> better off delivering any and all packets in the order they arrive instea=
d
> of introducing buffer bloat.
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon <fenix=3D
> 40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> The ideal would be to have public bits that were intended to be
> interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 could
> adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel.
> It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry ab=
out=E2=80=94it is
> also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80=9D.
>
> Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the
> application about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that
> this dovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw.
>
> A couple potentially interesting params are:
>
>   A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block
>   Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t=
 retry bit=E2=80=9D, but
> that is obviously not as expressive as throw out packet older than X
> microseconds)
>
>
> -=3DR
>
>
>
> *From: *QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ian Swett <ianswett=3D
> 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Date: *Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM
> *To: *"Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> *Cc: *Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <
> quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.co=
m
> >
> *Subject: *Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.  Client wifi stacks
> sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency=
),
> so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, =
it
> could be fairly widely applicable.
>
>
>
> That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is?  Would we need
> something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option th=
at
> propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible?
>
>
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Kirill, Alan,
>
>
>
> I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this sid=
e
> meeting either.
>
>
>
> But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based
> protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver
> frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower
> layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achie=
ve
> its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios.
> Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was
> wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the
> QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better
> decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain
> streams.
>
>
>
> I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dibakar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
> *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@ietf.org
> *Cc:* Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific
>
>
>
> Link to draft agenda and video conference details:
> https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2=
021.07.03.md
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/mai=
n/meeting-materials/agenda.2021.07.03.md__;!!GjvTz_vk!E0SzSsjcIQqc-TDdIf5-y=
7XjoWfnEA-7r9fdRAjEKZXc1GYhGomlKIXMwmDZ0Ls$>
>
>
>
> -Alan
>
> N=C3=A4r du skickar e-post till Karlstads universitet behandlar vi dina
> personuppgifter
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.kau.se/gdpr__;!!GjvTz_vk!AVpyqSAj=
3HYNjnpUTryB_6DdElZmzNy4D78JApMaTuSanBUHBhhvFtmhpcriyO0$>
> .
> When you send an e-mail to Karlstad University, we will process your
> personal data
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.kau.se/en/gdpr__;!!GjvTz_vk!AVpyq=
SAj3HYNjnpUTryB_6DdElZmzNy4D78JApMaTuSanBUHBhhvFtmhrH9ZMhY$>
> .
> --
> Mops mailing list
> Mops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">Just for clarification, if this needs to be handled, this=
 should be handled at QUIC level and it is not an specific problem for the =
Media over QUIC protocol, right?</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">El jue., 29 jul. 2021 18:15, Holland, Jake =
&lt;jholland=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40akamai.com@=
dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break=
-word">
<div class=3D"m_-4706475845838165058WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Anna,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">(And replacing Nathalie=E2=80=99s email with the co=
rrect one, hopefully)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">That was not quite my understanding, no.=C2=A0 Sorr=
y if I opened this discussion poorly.=C2=A0 In Nathalie=E2=80=99s initial r=
esponse, she clarified that it=E2=80=99s configurable, including the option
 to disable the reordering buffer.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">However, I understood this as an option available t=
o the service provider operating the MP-DCCP split path proxies that tunnel=
 the carried traffic, not necessarily to the endpoints
 or the applications having their traffic split.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Depending on how it=E2=80=99s deployed, this may or=
 may not be a problem for particular endpoints, but I couldn=E2=80=99t tell=
 if there was an obvious or easy way for an application to select
 the use case (particularly one that is just trying to use QUIC and transpa=
rently getting traffic-splitting delivery) in a way that the operator will =
understand, so I thought it best to raise the point for discussion.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Jake<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:black">Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anna.brunstrom=
@kau.se" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">anna.brunstrom@kau.se</a>&gt;=
<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wed,2021-07-28 at 5:31 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Matt Joras &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matt.joras@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">matt.joras@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Holland, Ja=
ke&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jholland@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">jholland@akamai.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>David Schinazi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Rober=
to Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:nathalie.romomoreno@tel=
ekom.de" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.d=
e</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" target=3D=
"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de</a>&gt;, &quot;<=
a href=3D"mailto:markus.amend@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferr=
er">markus.amend@telekom.de</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markus.amend@te=
lekom.de" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">markus.amend@telekom.de</a>&=
gt;, Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mo=
ps@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mops@ietf.org</a>&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mo=
ps@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Das, Dibakar&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&gt;, Alan Frinde=
ll &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afrind@fb.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer=
">afrind@fb.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:qui=
c@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Kir=
ill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noref=
errer">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr=
iday 7/30 18:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">I think multipath and L2 are a bit different as multip=
ath may lead to large amounts of reordering and delay variations. Not all a=
pplications/implementations may handle this well.
 But you should of course also have the possibility to just pass the packet=
s on, and I agree that in many cases this will be the best.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">In the context of MP-DCCP, both scheduling and reorder=
ing are modular components so you can certainly choose to pass the packets =
on without delay. The need for supporting this
 is also stated in the draft. But for the multipath case, I think it is use=
ful to also have the ability to reduce reordering if needed. For ATSSS I gu=
ess weather that is desirable or not may be controlled by the selected mode=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">@Jake: if you understood our conversation in ANRW as s=
uggesting that MP-DCCP should always reorder, that was a misunderstanding.<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">Anna</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> M=
att Joras &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matt.joras@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">matt.joras@gmail.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> den 29 juli 2021 01:58<br>
<b>To:</b> Holland, Jake &lt;jholland=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40akamai.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Schinazi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Rober=
to Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;; Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anna.=
brunstrom@kau.se" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">anna.brunstrom@kau.s=
e</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" target=3D"_bla=
nk" rel=3D"noreferrer">nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de</a>; <a href=3D"mailt=
o:markus.amend@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">markus.amen=
d@telekom.de</a>; Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mops@ietf.org</a>;=
 Das, Dibakar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank=
" rel=3D"noreferrer">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&gt;;
 Alan Frindell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afrind@fb.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">afrind@fb.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">quic@ietf.org</a>; Kirill Pugin &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ikir@fb.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr=
iday 7/30 18:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt"><span lang=3D"SV"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt"><span lang=3D"SV">Speak=
ing as an individual, a couple comments inline adding to what Jake is sayin=
g.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt"><span lang=3D"SV"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt"><span lang=3D"SV">On We=
d, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:58 PM Holland, Jake &lt;jholland=3D<a href=3D"mailto:4=
0akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">40akamai.c=
om@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
And yet, we still can see network buffering to maintain packet ordering in =
new work today, including work specifically targeted at QUIC.<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
In the =E2=80=9CCCID5=E2=80=9D ANRW talk from Monday=E2=80=99s 2<sup>nd</su=
p> session, a reordering buffer was mentioned in the transparent proxy for =
the MP-DCCP tunnel they=E2=80=99re wrapping QUIC packets in to get multipat=
h traffic-splitting during transport within wireless carriers (a
 proposal coming soon to tsvwg):<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.ht=
ml*:*:text=3Dnathalie*20romo*20moreno__;I34lJQ!!GjvTz_vk!AVpyqSAj3HYNjnpUTr=
yB_6DdElZmzNy4D78JApMaTuSanBUHBhhvFtmh1HJdILQ$" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
referrer">https://irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html#:~:text=3Dnathalie%20romo=
%20moreno</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
I asked specifically about the reordering buffer at the mic, since this kin=
d of thing has made me sad before. (There was also a side discussion in the=
 chat.)=C2=A0 I got the impression they believe they=E2=80=99re seeing some=
 benefits to apps by including this reordering
 buffer in the network, citing the wider range of reordering that you get f=
or split-path transport (as compared to the L2 forwarding case).<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt"><span lang=3D"SV"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt"><span lang=3D"SV">I wou=
ld question whether any application-level benefits could be measured by the=
 network intermediaries. We (i.e., endpoint owners) have a hard enough time=
 surmising application-level improvements
 from _endpoint_ transport metrics, let alone trying to intuit those as a n=
etwork intermediary without any application context whatsoever. Making netw=
ork-level decisions based on limited information is a recipe for &quot;opti=
mizations&quot; that seem good on paper and
 for a limited set of metrics but are worse in reality. This is exactly the=
 kind of thing that has led to the proliferation of TCP session terminating=
 PEPs, which have overall been a real impedance to making improvements with=
 TCP on the Internet.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt"><span lang=3D"SV">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
If there=E2=80=99s endpoint implementations that aren=E2=80=99t doing a goo=
d enough job here and therefore we=E2=80=99re seeing new network deployment=
s that introduce buffering because their measurements indicate it=E2=80=99s=
 helpful on common use cases, it could be worthwhile to get this
 straightened out before it gets too normalized and we start having network=
s reintroduce hol-blocking in a way that hurts some QUIC use cases in the n=
ame of helping others.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
Although I expect this can and should be solved at the endpoints, if there =
is data showing that the ordering solves a real problem with current implem=
entations, reasonable people can reasonably conclude that network buffering=
 to maintain packet order is a good
 idea.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
(Note: UDP client-side port might be an option for a network-visible signal=
 that might =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D for many (hopefully most?) ordering=
 schemes to avoid buffering for ordering, but it might need some API suppor=
t and it might lead to some other kinds of ugly
 nat problems if there=E2=80=99s too many flows doing it...)<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
+Anna, Nathalie and Markus.=C2=A0 Hopefully they can comment on this also.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
Jake<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
<b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><span style=3D"color:black"=
>David Schinazi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wed,2021-07-28 at 2:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blan=
k" rel=3D"noreferrer">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mops@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferr=
er">mops@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Das, Dibakar&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d=
ibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dibakar.das@inte=
l.com</a>&gt;,
 Alan Frindell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afrind@fb.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">afrind@fb.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">quic@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;, Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank=
" rel=3D"noreferrer">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr=
iday 7/30 18:00 UTC</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all traffic, be it TCP QUI=
C or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to reorder packets was a =
reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long time ago that have been =
fixed in systems that care about
 performance. In today&#39;s world, L2 is better off delivering any and all=
 packets in the order they arrive instead of introducing buffer bloat.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
David<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon &lt;fenix=3D<a href=3D"mailto:=
40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">40fb.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;marg=
in-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204=
,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
The ideal would be to have public bits that were intended to be interpreted=
 by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 could adapted appropria=
tely without reinventing the wheel.<br>
It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry abou=
t=E2=80=94it is also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80=
=9D.<br>
<br>
Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the appli=
cation about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that this d=
ovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw.<br>
<br>
A couple potentially interesting params are:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0 A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block <br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon=
=E2=80=99t retry bit=E2=80=9D, but that is obviously not as expressive as t=
hrow out packet older than X microseconds)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0 <br>
-=3DR<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
<b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><span style=3D"color:black"=
>QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"noreferrer">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Ian Swett &lt;iansw=
ett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Das, Dibakar&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel=
.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&gt;<br=
>
<b>Cc: </b>Alan Frindell &lt;afrind=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40fb.com@dmarc.ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;,=
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer=
">quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"noreferrer">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mop=
s@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mops@ietf.org</a>&quot;
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">=
mops@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/=
30 18:00 UTC</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
I can&#39;t answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.=C2=A0 Client wifi stacks=
 sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency)=
, so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, =
it could be fairly widely applicable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
That being said, I don&#39;t know what the right mechanism is?=C2=A0 Would=
=C2=A0we need something visible to a network or can we get away with a sock=
et option that propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when pos=
sible?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
Ian<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.=
das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dibakar.das@intel.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;marg=
in-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204=
,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
Hi Kirill, Alan, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this side =
meeting either.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based p=
rotocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver frame=
s in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower layers=
. I would expect this to in turn
 prevent the QUIC protocol to achieve its full performance gains at least i=
n some congested network scenarios. Considering that in-order delivery is m=
ade optional in 5G PDCP, I was wondering if there could be a value to have =
some signaling defined in the QUIC
 (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better decision=
 about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain streams.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. <u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
Dibakar<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
<b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"noreferrer">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Frindell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:avt@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefer=
rer">avt@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:wish@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">
wish@ietf.org</a>; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mops@=
ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank=
" rel=3D"noreferrer">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1=
8:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
Link to draft agenda and video conference details: <a href=3D"https://urlde=
fense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materi=
als/agenda.2021.07.03.md__;!!GjvTz_vk!E0SzSsjcIQqc-TDdIf5-y7XjoWfnEA-7r9fdR=
AjEKZXc1GYhGomlKIXMwmDZ0Ls$" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">
https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202=
1.07.03.md</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:65.2pt">
-Alan<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p><span lang=3D"SV"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.kau.=
se/gdpr__;!!GjvTz_vk!AVpyqSAj3HYNjnpUTryB_6DdElZmzNy4D78JApMaTuSanBUHBhhvFt=
mhpcriyO0$" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">N=C3=A4r du skickar e-post=
 till Karlstads universitet behandlar vi dina personuppgifter</a>.<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.kau.se/en/gdpr__;!!GjvTz_=
vk!AVpyqSAj3HYNjnpUTryB_6DdElZmzNy4D78JApMaTuSanBUHBhhvFtmhrH9ZMhY$" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">When you send an e-mail to Karlstad Universi=
ty, we will process your personal data</a>.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>

-- <br>
Mops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">Mops@=
ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops" rel=3D"noreferrer no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops</a><=
br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000004e0a8b05c845a96c--


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From: Zaheduzzaman Sarker <zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com>
To: Sergio Garcia Murillo <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>
CC: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>, "nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de" <nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de>, =?utf-8?B?QW5uYSBCcnVuc3Ryw7Zt?= <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>, David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, "markus.amend@telekom.de" <markus.amend@telekom.de>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Thread-Topic: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mops/XSX0gCxTzw4zI8np72fSlxJTlPA>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:36:16 -0500
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To: "Holland, Jake" <jholland=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in particular)
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Hi, Jake,

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:59 PM Holland, Jake <jholland=3D
40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hi Mops,
>
> Ali just mentioned that the mops group also might be
> interested in Web multicast, since video is such an important
> use case for it.
>
> It's very late notice, sorry, but anyone who can make it is
> invited to attend the Web Multicast bar bof starting in 2
> minutes.
>

This was a very interesting side meeting.

Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and where the notes
would be posted?

Best,

Spencer


> Best regards,
> Jake
>
> =EF=BB=BFOn 07-22, 10:44 AM, "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com> wrote:
>
> Hi WebTransport,
>
> I'd like to let you know about a new W3C Community group
> dedicated to incubating Multicast support for web traffic:
> https://www.w3.org/community/multicast/
> https://w3c.github.io/multicast-cg/multicast-cg-charter.html
>
> For the first phase, we're working toward an integration with
> WebTransport, as the charter describes in more detail.
>
> I've set up a bar bof side meeting at 11am Pacific Time on
> Thursday July 29th to discuss further.  Details are attached,
> the meeting link is at the bottom, and it's registered here:
> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/111sidemeetings
>
> (I'd ask for a slot in webtrans, but hilariously, it's at the
> same time as mboned, where some other parts of this work are
> under way.)
>
>
> A little more background:
>
> Akamai is wrapping up some trials and discussions with several
> ISPs and content owners evaluating the feasibility of standards-
> based multicast delivery for our popular production traffic on a
> 3-5 year timeline.  The trials were checking whether our
> prototypes and specs look like they'll be feasible to deploy
> after productizing them, and whether the achievable traffic
> offload would make investment worthwhile.
>
> The moderately positive results of these trials (as well as some
> interest generated during a W3C Interest group presentation) led
> to the creation of the new community group as part of our next
> steps.
>
> We'll be relying on progress on some of the IETF docs to clarify
> and address the networking requirements for web traffic as it
> relates to multicast IP delivery.
>
> The first one to consider from the webtrans point of view is
> probably our recently-posted security considerations draft:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-krose-multicast-security
>
> The aim is for this doc ultimately to perform a similar function
> to what RFC 8826 did for WebRTC.
>
> There are other relevant docs that taken together we think can fill
> the security needs we know about so far, with a little refinement:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pardue-quic-http-mcast
>
> I understand this to be outside webtransport's current charter,
> but we'd like to develop this work between now and IETF 112, and in
> November to bring a coherent and well-supported proposal for next
> steps either to a venue like secdispatch or to a BoF for an
> appropriate new group, depending on the advice we get along the way.
>
> One option that might be worth considering would be rechartering
> webtransport to allow for a scope that includes this work.
>
> But even if that turns out not to be the right thing, we expect
> that members of webtransport will have crucial expertise and opinions,
> and we would value your feedback and request some level of liaison as
> we try to move this forward.
>
> I hope to see some of you next Thursday.
>
> Best regards,
> Jake
>
> [1] Webex meeting for Thursday at 11am Pacific (1 hour before the
> first sessions of the day):
>
> https://akamai.webex.com/akamai/j.php?MTID=3Dmbe0822775e2ba553d4669b44183=
3ec38
>
>
> --
> Mops mailing list
> Mops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi, Jake,=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12=
:59 PM Holland, Jake &lt;jholland=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ie=
tf.org">40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Mops,<br>
<br>
Ali just mentioned that the mops group also might be<br>
interested in Web multicast, since video is such an important<br>
use case for it.<br>
<br>
It&#39;s very late notice, sorry, but anyone who can make it is<br>
invited to attend the Web Multicast bar bof starting in 2<br>
minutes.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This was a very interesting si=
de meeting.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Could I ask where you expect dis=
cussion to happen, and where the notes would be posted?</div><div><br></div=
><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Spencer</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Best regards,<br>
Jake<br>
<br>
=EF=BB=BFOn 07-22, 10:44 AM, &quot;Holland, Jake&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:jholland@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">jholland@akamai.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
<br>
Hi WebTransport,<br>
<br>
I&#39;d like to let you know about a new W3C Community group<br>
dedicated to incubating Multicast support for web traffic:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.w3.org/community/multicast/" rel=3D"noreferrer" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://www.w3.org/community/multicast/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://w3c.github.io/multicast-cg/multicast-cg-charter.html" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://w3c.github.io/multicast-cg/multi=
cast-cg-charter.html</a><br>
<br>
For the first phase, we&#39;re working toward an integration with<br>
WebTransport, as the charter describes in more detail.<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve set up a bar bof side meeting at 11am Pacific Time on<br>
Thursday July 29th to discuss further.=C2=A0 Details are attached,<br>
the meeting link is at the bottom, and it&#39;s registered here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/111sidemeetings" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/=
wiki/111sidemeetings</a><br>
<br>
(I&#39;d ask for a slot in webtrans, but hilariously, it&#39;s at the<br>
same time as mboned, where some other parts of this work are<br>
under way.)<br>
<br>
<br>
A little more background:<br>
<br>
Akamai is wrapping up some trials and discussions with several<br>
ISPs and content owners evaluating the feasibility of standards-<br>
based multicast delivery for our popular production traffic on a<br>
3-5 year timeline.=C2=A0 The trials were checking whether our<br>
prototypes and specs look like they&#39;ll be feasible to deploy<br>
after productizing them, and whether the achievable traffic<br>
offload would make investment worthwhile.<br>
<br>
The moderately positive results of these trials (as well as some<br>
interest generated during a W3C Interest group presentation) led<br>
to the creation of the new community group as part of our next<br>
steps.<br>
<br>
We&#39;ll be relying on progress on some of the IETF docs to clarify<br>
and address the networking requirements for web traffic as it<br>
relates to multicast IP delivery.<br>
<br>
The first one to consider from the webtrans point of view is<br>
probably our recently-posted security considerations draft:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-krose-multicast-secu=
rity" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/html/draft-krose-multicast-security</a><br>
<br>
The aim is for this doc ultimately to perform a similar function<br>
to what RFC 8826 did for WebRTC.<br>
<br>
There are other relevant docs that taken together we think can fill<br>
the security needs we know about so far, with a little refinement:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dr=
aft-ietf-mboned-ambi</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pardue-quic-http-mca=
st" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/h=
tml/draft-pardue-quic-http-mcast</a><br>
<br>
I understand this to be outside webtransport&#39;s current charter,<br>
but we&#39;d like to develop this work between now and IETF 112, and in<br>
November to bring a coherent and well-supported proposal for next<br>
steps either to a venue like secdispatch or to a BoF for an<br>
appropriate new group, depending on the advice we get along the way.<br>
<br>
One option that might be worth considering would be rechartering<br>
webtransport to allow for a scope that includes this work.<br>
<br>
But even if that turns out not to be the right thing, we expect<br>
that members of webtransport will have crucial expertise and opinions,<br>
and we would value your feedback and request some level of liaison as<br>
we try to move this forward.<br>
<br>
I hope to see some of you next Thursday.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Jake<br>
<br>
[1] Webex meeting for Thursday at 11am Pacific (1 hour before the<br>
first sessions of the day):<br>
<a href=3D"https://akamai.webex.com/akamai/j.php?MTID=3Dmbe0822775e2ba553d4=
669b441833ec38" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://akamai.webex.c=
om/akamai/j.php?MTID=3Dmbe0822775e2ba553d4669b441833ec38</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Mops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Mops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000005209a05c84839e6--


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From: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in particular)
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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 22:42:15 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKcm_gMOFG_pquhCtSsMtMOZ6Tjb5Rimr0SvwK9Umw5sFqm-6w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Zaheduzzaman Sarker <zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com>
Cc: Sergio Garcia Murillo <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>,  Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>,  "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>,  "nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de" <nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de>, =?UTF-8?Q?Anna_Brunstr=C3=B6m?= <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>,  David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>,  "markus.amend@telekom.de" <markus.amend@telekom.de>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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TLDR: Ideally, handling reordering on the receiving host will
reduce user latency and be cheaper for everyone.

Changing the TCP ecosystem is slow, so I can't advise immediately doing
this for TCP traffic, but doing this now for QUIC(and maybe documenting it
in Manageability?) seems viable.  If we wait longer, the ecosystem will be
ossified.  I'm not sure anyone is willing to introduce intentional
reordering to GREASE the loss detection system and ensure implementations
adapt, but I'll discuss if that's something we would do for some traffic
when sending multi-packet bursts.

I believe the vast majority of QUIC applications would benefit from
increased reordering if it reduced latency and buffering.  In TCP, you can
detect reordering from the sequence number.  But for QUIC, the metadata is
encrypted, so a given network can only attempt to reduce reordering in a
much narrower context, which is much less useful.  Add into that the fact
you don't know the application, and the benefits of delaying packets within
the network/path become even more difficult to reason about.

To frame this in statistical terms, the sum of multiple normal
distributions is a normal distribution with the sum of the means and a sum
of the variances(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variables)=
.
Since the standard deviation is the square root of the variance, the
standard deviation is dominated by the largest source of variation, and if
each link introduces some variance, it's really only the one that
introduces the most variation that matters.  Given no link knows whether
it's the dominant source of variation on the path, I'd suggest every link
pass along packets as soon as possible.  Obviously, link-layer error
correction and other approaches which increase reliability without
introducing delay are still welcome and valuable.

Thanks, Ian



On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 2:10 PM Zaheduzzaman Sarker <
zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com> wrote:

> I would say this is not specific to media over QUIC. However, a potential
> solution to this could boost the deployment of potential radio technologi=
es
> ( for example - Unacknowledgement Mode (UM) of RLC in cellular networks)
> which might actually help low latency media usecases.
>
>
>
> BR
>
> Zahed
>
>
>
> On 2021-07-29, 22:35, "QUIC on behalf of Sergio Garcia Murillo" <
> quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
>
>
> Just for clarification, if this needs to be handled, this should be
> handled at QUIC level and it is not an specific problem for the Media ove=
r
> QUIC protocol, right?
>
>
>
> El jue., 29 jul. 2021 18:15, Holland, Jake <jholland=3D
> 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> escribi=C3=B3:
>
> Hi Anna,
>
>
>
> (And replacing Nathalie=E2=80=99s email with the correct one, hopefully)
>
>
>
> That was not quite my understanding, no.  Sorry if I opened this
> discussion poorly.  In Nathalie=E2=80=99s initial response, she clarified=
 that it=E2=80=99s
> configurable, including the option to disable the reordering buffer.
>
>
>
> However, I understood this as an option available to the service provider
> operating the MP-DCCP split path proxies that tunnel the carried traffic,
> not necessarily to the endpoints or the applications having their traffic
> split.
>
>
>
> Depending on how it=E2=80=99s deployed, this may or may not be a problem =
for
> particular endpoints, but I couldn=E2=80=99t tell if there was an obvious=
 or easy
> way for an application to select the use case (particularly one that is
> just trying to use QUIC and transparently getting traffic-splitting
> delivery) in a way that the operator will understand, so I thought it bes=
t
> to raise the point for discussion.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jake
>
>
>
> *From: *Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>
> *Date: *Wed,2021-07-28 at 5:31 PM
> *To: *Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>, "Holland, Jake" <
> jholland@akamai.com>
> *Cc: *David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <
> fenix@fb.com>, "nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" <
> nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de>, "markus.amend@telekom.de" <
> markus.amend@telekom.de>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org=
"
> <mops@ietf.org>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <
> afrind@fb.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.co=
m
> >
> *Subject: *RE: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting
> Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> I think multipath and L2 are a bit different as multipath may lead to
> large amounts of reordering and delay variations. Not all
> applications/implementations may handle this well. But you should of cour=
se
> also have the possibility to just pass the packets on, and I agree that i=
n
> many cases this will be the best.
>
>
>
> In the context of MP-DCCP, both scheduling and reordering are modular
> components so you can certainly choose to pass the packets on without
> delay. The need for supporting this is also stated in the draft. But for
> the multipath case, I think it is useful to also have the ability to redu=
ce
> reordering if needed. For ATSSS I guess weather that is desirable or not
> may be controlled by the selected mode.
>
>
>
> @Jake: if you understood our conversation in ANRW as suggesting that
> MP-DCCP should always reorder, that was a misunderstanding.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Anna
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* den 29 juli 2021 01:58
> *To:* Holland, Jake <jholland=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Cc:* David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>; Roberto Peon <
> fenix@fb.com>; Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>;
> nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de; markus.amend@telekom.de; Ian Swett <
> ianswett@google.com>; mops@ietf.org; Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>=
;
> Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>; quic@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting
> Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Speaking as an individual, a couple comments inline adding to what Jake i=
s
> saying.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:58 PM Holland, Jake <jholland=3D
> 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> And yet, we still can see network buffering to maintain packet ordering i=
n
> new work today, including work specifically targeted at QUIC.
>
>
>
> In the =E2=80=9CCCID5=E2=80=9D ANRW talk from Monday=E2=80=99s 2nd sessio=
n, a reordering buffer
> was mentioned in the transparent proxy for the MP-DCCP tunnel they=E2=80=
=99re
> wrapping QUIC packets in to get multipath traffic-splitting during
> transport within wireless carriers (a proposal coming soon to tsvwg):
>
> https://irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html#:~:text=3Dnathalie%20romo%20moren=
o
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html*:*:te=
xt=3Dnathalie*20romo*20moreno__;I34lJQ!!GjvTz_vk!AVpyqSAj3HYNjnpUTryB_6DdEl=
ZmzNy4D78JApMaTuSanBUHBhhvFtmh1HJdILQ$>
>
>
>
> I asked specifically about the reordering buffer at the mic, since this
> kind of thing has made me sad before. (There was also a side discussion i=
n
> the chat.)  I got the impression they believe they=E2=80=99re seeing some=
 benefits
> to apps by including this reordering buffer in the network, citing the
> wider range of reordering that you get for split-path transport (as
> compared to the L2 forwarding case).
>
>
>
> I would question whether any application-level benefits could be measured
> by the network intermediaries. We (i.e., endpoint owners) have a hard
> enough time surmising application-level improvements from _endpoint_
> transport metrics, let alone trying to intuit those as a network
> intermediary without any application context whatsoever. Making
> network-level decisions based on limited information is a recipe for
> "optimizations" that seem good on paper and for a limited set of metrics
> but are worse in reality. This is exactly the kind of thing that has led =
to
> the proliferation of TCP session terminating PEPs, which have overall bee=
n
> a real impedance to making improvements with TCP on the Internet.
>
>
>
>
>
> If there=E2=80=99s endpoint implementations that aren=E2=80=99t doing a g=
ood enough job
> here and therefore we=E2=80=99re seeing new network deployments that intr=
oduce
> buffering because their measurements indicate it=E2=80=99s helpful on com=
mon use
> cases, it could be worthwhile to get this straightened out before it gets
> too normalized and we start having networks reintroduce hol-blocking in a
> way that hurts some QUIC use cases in the name of helping others.
>
>
>
> Although I expect this can and should be solved at the endpoints, if ther=
e
> is data showing that the ordering solves a real problem with current
> implementations, reasonable people can reasonably conclude that network
> buffering to maintain packet order is a good idea.
>
>
>
> (Note: UDP client-side port might be an option for a network-visible
> signal that might =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D for many (hopefully most?) =
ordering schemes
> to avoid buffering for ordering, but it might need some API support and i=
t
> might lead to some other kinds of ugly nat problems if there=E2=80=99s to=
o many
> flows doing it...)
>
>
>
> +Anna, Nathalie and Markus.  Hopefully they can comment on this also.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jake
>
>
>
> *From: *David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wed,2021-07-28 at 2:16 PM
> *To: *Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
> *Cc: *Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>,
> "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>, "
> quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting
> Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all traffic, be it TCP
> QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to reorder packets w=
as
> a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long time ago that have
> been fixed in systems that care about performance. In today's world, L2 i=
s
> better off delivering any and all packets in the order they arrive instea=
d
> of introducing buffer bloat.
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon <fenix=3D
> 40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> The ideal would be to have public bits that were intended to be
> interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 could
> adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel.
> It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry ab=
out=E2=80=94it is
> also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80=9D.
>
> Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the
> application about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that
> this dovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw.
>
> A couple potentially interesting params are:
>
>   A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block
>   Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t=
 retry bit=E2=80=9D, but
> that is obviously not as expressive as throw out packet older than X
> microseconds)
>
>
> -=3DR
>
>
>
> *From: *QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ian Swett <ianswett=3D
> 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Date: *Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM
> *To: *"Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> *Cc: *Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <
> quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.co=
m
> >
> *Subject: *Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.  Client wifi stacks
> sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency=
),
> so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, =
it
> could be fairly widely applicable.
>
>
>
> That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is?  Would we need
> something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option th=
at
> propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible?
>
>
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Kirill, Alan,
>
>
>
> I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this sid=
e
> meeting either.
>
>
>
> But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based
> protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver
> frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower
> layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achie=
ve
> its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios.
> Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was
> wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the
> QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better
> decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain
> streams.
>
>
>
> I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dibakar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
> *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@ietf.org
> *Cc:* Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
> *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30
> 18:00 UTC
>
>
>
> Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific
>
>
>
> Link to draft agenda and video conference details:
> https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2=
021.07.03.md
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/mai=
n/meeting-materials/agenda.2021.07.03.md__;!!GjvTz_vk!E0SzSsjcIQqc-TDdIf5-y=
7XjoWfnEA-7r9fdRAjEKZXc1GYhGomlKIXMwmDZ0Ls$>
>
>
>
> -Alan
>
> N=C3=A4r du skickar e-post till Karlstads universitet behandlar vi dina
> personuppgifter
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.kau.se/gdpr__;!!GjvTz_vk!AVpyqSAj=
3HYNjnpUTryB_6DdElZmzNy4D78JApMaTuSanBUHBhhvFtmhpcriyO0$>
> .
> When you send an e-mail to Karlstad University, we will process your
> personal data
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.kau.se/en/gdpr__;!!GjvTz_vk!AVpyq=
SAj3HYNjnpUTryB_6DdElZmzNy4D78JApMaTuSanBUHBhhvFtmhrH9ZMhY$>
> .
>
> --
> Mops mailing list
> Mops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>TLDR: Ideally, handling reordering on the receiving h=
ost will reduce=C2=A0user=C2=A0latency and be cheaper for everyone.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Changing the TCP ecosystem is slow, so I can&#39;t advise=
 immediately doing this for TCP traffic, but doing this now for QUIC(and ma=
ybe documenting it in Manageability?) seems viable.=C2=A0 If we wait longer=
, the=C2=A0ecosystem will be ossified.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure anyone is wil=
ling to introduce intentional reordering to GREASE the loss detection syste=
m and ensure implementations adapt, but I&#39;ll discuss if that&#39;s some=
thing we would do for some traffic when sending multi-packet bursts.</div><=
div></div><div><br></div><div>I believe the vast majority of QUIC applicati=
ons would benefit from increased reordering if it reduced latency and buffe=
ring.=C2=A0 In TCP, you can detect reordering from the sequence number.=C2=
=A0 But for QUIC, the metadata is encrypted, so a given network can only at=
tempt to reduce reordering in a much narrower context, which is much less u=
seful.=C2=A0 Add into that the fact you don&#39;t know the application, and=
 the benefits of delaying packets within the network/path become even more =
difficult to reason about.</div><div><br></div><div>To frame this=C2=A0in s=
tatistical terms, the sum of multiple normal distributions is a normal dist=
ribution with the sum of the means and a sum of the variances(<a href=3D"ht=
tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variables">h=
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variables</=
a>).=C2=A0 Since the standard deviation is the square root of the variance,=
 the standard deviation is dominated by the largest source of variation, an=
d if each link introduces some variance, it&#39;s really only the one that =
introduces the most variation that matters.=C2=A0 Given no link knows wheth=
er it&#39;s the dominant source of variation on the path, I&#39;d suggest e=
very link pass along packets as soon as possible.=C2=A0 Obviously, link-lay=
er error correction and other approaches which increase reliability without=
 introducing delay are still welcome and valuable.</div><div><br></div><div=
>Thanks, Ian</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 2:1=
0 PM Zaheduzzaman Sarker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson=
.com">zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"en-SE" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-3735865047005561978WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
I would say this is not specific to media over QUIC. However, a potential s=
olution to this could boost the deployment of potential radio technologies =
( for example - Unacknowledgement
 Mode (UM) of RLC in cellular networks) which might actually help low laten=
cy media usecases.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
BR<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
Zahed =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">On 2021-07-29, 22:35, &qu=
ot;QUIC on behalf of Sergio Garcia Murillo&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic=
-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sergio=
.garcia.murillo@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Just for clarification, i=
f this needs to be handled, this should be handled at QUIC level and it is =
not an specific problem for the Media over QUIC protocol, right?<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">El jue., 29 jul. 2021 18:=
15, Holland, Jake &lt;jholland=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Anna,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">(And replacing Nathalie=E2=80=99s email with the corre=
ct one, hopefully)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">That was not quite my understanding, no.=C2=A0 Sorry i=
f I opened this discussion poorly.=C2=A0 In Nathalie=E2=80=99s initial resp=
onse, she clarified that it=E2=80=99s configurable, including the option to=
 disable the reordering buffer.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">However, I understood this as an option available to t=
he service provider operating the MP-DCCP split path proxies that tunnel th=
e carried traffic, not necessarily to the endpoints or the applications hav=
ing their traffic split.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Depending on how it=E2=80=99s deployed, this may or ma=
y not be a problem for particular endpoints, but I couldn=E2=80=99t tell if=
 there was an obvious or easy way for an application to select the use case=
 (particularly one that is just trying to use QUIC
 and transparently getting traffic-splitting delivery) in a way that the op=
erator will understand, so I thought it best to raise the point for discuss=
ion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Jake<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<b><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><span lang=3D"S=
V" style=3D"color:black">Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anna.bru=
nstrom@kau.se" target=3D"_blank">anna.brunstrom@kau.se</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wed,2021-07-28 at 5:31 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Matt Joras &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matt.joras@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">matt.joras@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Holland, Jake&quot; &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:jholland@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">jholland@akamai.com</a>&=
gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>David Schinazi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">nathalie.ro=
momoreno@telekom.de</a>&quot;
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">na=
thalie.romomoreno@telekom.de</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:markus.amend@=
telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">markus.amend@telekom.de</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:markus.amend@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">markus.amend@telekom.=
de</a>&gt;,
 Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" target=3D"_blank">ian=
swett@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Das, Dibakar&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&g=
t;,
 Alan Frindell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afrind@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">afrin=
d@fb.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr=
iday 7/30 18:00 UTC</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"SV">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">I think multipath and L=
2 are a bit different as multipath may lead to large amounts of reordering =
and delay variations. Not all applications/implementations may handle this =
well. But you should of course also have the
 possibility to just pass the packets on, and I agree that in many cases th=
is will be the best.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">In the context of MP-DC=
CP, both scheduling and reordering are modular components so you can certai=
nly choose to pass the packets on without delay. The need for supporting th=
is is also stated in the draft. But for the
 multipath case, I think it is useful to also have the ability to reduce re=
ordering if needed. For ATSSS I guess weather that is desirable or not may =
be controlled by the selected mode.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">@Jake: if you understoo=
d our conversation in ANRW as suggesting that MP-DCCP should always reorder=
, that was a misunderstanding.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best,</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">Anna</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Matt Joras &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:matt.joras@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">matt.joras@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> den 29 juli 2021 01:58<br>
<b>To:</b> Holland, Jake &lt;jholland=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40akamai.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Schinazi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;; Anna Bruns=
tr=C3=B6m &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anna.brunstrom@kau.se" target=3D"_blank">an=
na.brunstrom@kau.se</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">nathali=
e.romomoreno@telekom.de</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:markus.amend@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">markus.amend@t=
elekom.de</a>; Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>; Das, =
Dibakar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">diba=
kar.das@intel.com</a>&gt;; Alan Frindell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afrind@fb.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">afrind@fb.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>; Kiril=
l Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">ikir@fb.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr=
iday 7/30 18:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"SV">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"SV">Speaking as an individual, a couple comments inline addin=
g to what Jake is saying.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"SV">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"SV">On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:58 PM Holland, Jake &lt;jhollan=
d=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40akam=
ai.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0c=
m 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And yet, we still can see network buffering to maintai=
n packet ordering in new work today, including work specifically targeted a=
t QUIC.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">In the =E2=80=9CCCID5=E2=80=9D ANRW talk from Monday=
=E2=80=99s 2<sup>nd</sup> session, a reordering buffer was mentioned in the=
 transparent proxy for the MP-DCCP tunnel they=E2=80=99re wrapping QUIC pac=
kets in to get multipath traffic-splitting during transport within wireless
 carriers (a proposal coming soon to tsvwg):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/irtf.org=
/anrw/2021/program.html*:*:text=3Dnathalie*20romo*20moreno__;I34lJQ!!GjvTz_=
vk!AVpyqSAj3HYNjnpUTryB_6DdElZmzNy4D78JApMaTuSanBUHBhhvFtmh1HJdILQ$" target=
=3D"_blank">https://irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html#:~:text=3Dnathalie%20ro=
mo%20moreno</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">I asked specifically about the reordering buffer at th=
e mic, since this kind of thing has made me sad before. (There was also a s=
ide discussion in the chat.)=C2=A0 I got the impression they believe they=
=E2=80=99re seeing some benefits to apps by including
 this reordering buffer in the network, citing the wider range of reorderin=
g that you get for split-path transport (as compared to the L2 forwarding c=
ase).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"SV">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"SV">I would question whether any application-level benefits c=
ould be measured by the network intermediaries. We (i.e., endpoint owners) =
have a hard enough time surmising application-level improvements from _endp=
oint_ transport metrics, let alone
 trying to intuit those as a network intermediary without any application c=
ontext whatsoever. Making network-level decisions based on limited informat=
ion is a recipe for &quot;optimizations&quot; that seem good on paper and f=
or a limited set of metrics but are worse
 in reality. This is exactly the kind of thing that has led to the prolifer=
ation of TCP session terminating PEPs, which have overall been a real imped=
ance to making improvements with TCP on the Internet.</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"SV">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0c=
m 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">If there=E2=80=99s endpoint implementations that aren=
=E2=80=99t doing a good enough job here and therefore we=E2=80=99re seeing =
new network deployments that introduce buffering because their measurements=
 indicate it=E2=80=99s helpful on common use cases, it could be worthwhile
 to get this straightened out before it gets too normalized and we start ha=
ving networks reintroduce hol-blocking in a way that hurts some QUIC use ca=
ses in the name of helping others.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Although I expect this can and should be solved at the=
 endpoints, if there is data showing that the ordering solves a real proble=
m with current implementations, reasonable people can reasonably conclude t=
hat network buffering to maintain
 packet order is a good idea.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0c=
m 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">(Note: UDP client-side port might be an option for a n=
etwork-visible signal that might =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D for many (hope=
fully most?) ordering schemes to avoid buffering for ordering, but it might=
 need some API support and it might lead to some other
 kinds of ugly nat problems if there=E2=80=99s too many flows doing it...)<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">+Anna, Nathalie and Markus.=C2=A0 Hopefully they can c=
omment on this also.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Jake<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none currentcolor;border-bottom:none currentcolo=
r;border-left:none currentcolor;border-top:1pt solid currentcolor;padding:3=
pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">David Schinazi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dschi=
nazi.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wed,2021-07-28 at 2:16 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" target=3D"_=
blank">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Das, Dibakar&quot; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel=
.com</a>&gt;,
 Alan Frindell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afrind@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">afrin=
d@fb.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr=
iday 7/30 18:00 UTC</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all t=
raffic, be it TCP QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to r=
eorder packets was a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long tim=
e ago that have been fixed in systems
 that care about performance. In today&#39;s world, L2 is better off delive=
ring any and all packets in the order they arrive instead of introducing bu=
ffer bloat.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">David<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon &lt;fenix=
=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40fb.com@dm=
arc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none currentcolor;border-right:none current=
color;border-bottom:none currentcolor;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">The ideal would be to have public bits that were inten=
ded to be interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 co=
uld adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel.<br>
It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry abou=
t=E2=80=94it is also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80=
=9D.<br>
<br>
Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the appli=
cation about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that this d=
ovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw.<br>
<br>
A couple potentially interesting params are:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0 A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block <br=
>
=C2=A0=C2=A0Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon=
=E2=80=99t retry bit=E2=80=9D, but that is obviously not as expressive as t=
hrow out packet older than X microseconds)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0 <br>
-=3DR<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none currentcolor;border-bottom:none currentcolo=
r;border-left:none currentcolor;border-top:1pt solid currentcolor;padding:3=
pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Ian Sw=
ett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Das, Dibakar&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel=
.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Alan Frindell &lt;afrind=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40fb.com@dmarc.ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&quot;
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;, Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">ikir@=
fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/=
30 18:00 UTC</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">I can&#39;t answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.=C2=
=A0 Client wifi stacks sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the =
corresponding latency), so if we could design an indication that in-order d=
elivery has no value, it could be fairly widely
 applicable.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">That being said, I don&#39;t know what the right mecha=
nism is?=C2=A0 Would=C2=A0we need something visible to a network or can we =
get away with a socket option that propagates to the local 5G network or Wi=
fi firmware when possible?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Ian<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none currentcolor;border-right:none current=
color;border-bottom:none currentcolor;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Kirill, Alan, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">I could not attend the call this week and wont be able=
 to attend this side meeting either.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">But I had a general question about the performance of =
all such QUIC based protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC=
 layers deliver frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking pr=
oblem at lower layers. I would expect
 this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achieve its full performance =
gains at least in some congested network scenarios. Considering that in-ord=
er delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was wondering if there could be =
a value to have some signaling defined
 in the QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make bet=
ter decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain =
streams.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue =
to ask questions.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Dibakar<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none currentcolor;border-bottom:none currentcolo=
r;border-left:none currentcolor;border-top:1pt solid currentcolor;padding:3=
pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> QUIC &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Frindell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:avt@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">avt@ietf.org</=
a>; <a href=3D"mailto:wish@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
wish@ietf.org</a>; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Kirill Pugin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ikir@fb.com" target=3D"_blank=
">ikir@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1=
8:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 =
UTC / 11 Pacific<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Link to draft agenda and video conference details: <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blo=
b/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2021.07.03.md__;!!GjvTz_vk!E0SzSsjcIQqc-TDd=
If5-y7XjoWfnEA-7r9fdRAjEKZXc1GYhGomlKIXMwmDZ0Ls$" target=3D"_blank">
https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202=
1.07.03.md</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:101.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">-Alan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span lang=3D"SV"><a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.com/v3/__https:/www.kau.se/gdpr__;!!GjvTz_vk!AVpyqSAj3HYNjnpUTryB_6DdElZ=
mzNy4D78JApMaTuSanBUHBhhvFtmhpcriyO0$" target=3D"_blank">N=C3=A4r du skicka=
r e-post till Karlstads universitet behandlar
 vi dina personuppgifter</a>.<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.kau.se/en/gdpr__;!!GjvTz_=
vk!AVpyqSAj3HYNjnpUTryB_6DdElZmzNy4D78JApMaTuSanBUHBhhvFtmhrH9ZMhY$" target=
=3D"_blank">When you send an e-mail to Karlstad University, we will process=
 your personal data</a>.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">-- <br>
Mops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Mops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--00000000000097ee8505c84e2bd6--


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From: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>
To: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Zaheduzzaman Sarker <zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com>
CC: Sergio Garcia Murillo <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>, "nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de" <nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de>, =?utf-8?B?QW5uYSBCcnVuc3Ryw7Zt?= <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>, David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, "markus.amend@telekom.de" <markus.amend@telekom.de>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Thread-Topic: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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Cc: Zaheduzzaman Sarker <zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com>, Sergio Garcia Murillo <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>, "nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de" <nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de>, =?utf-8?Q?Anna_Brunstr=C3=B6m?= <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>, David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, "markus.amend@telekom.de" <markus.amend@telekom.de>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
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To: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mops/kzasg58Suzh177QVjFZ-ujl969U>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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> On Jul 30, 2021, at 5:42 AM, Ian Swett =
<ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> To frame this in statistical terms, the sum of multiple normal =
distributions is a normal distribution with the sum of the means and a =
sum of the =
variances(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random=
_variables).  Since the standard deviation is the square root of the =
variance, the standard deviation is dominated by the largest source of =
variation, and if each link introduces some variance, it's really only =
the one that introduces the most variation that matters.

Sure, but that assumes independent distributions which does not much =
apply in this case. But the point is still valid, there will likely be =
1-2 problematic hops in the entire ~10-20 e2e path.

>  Given no link knows whether it's the dominant source of variation on =
the path, I'd suggest every link pass along packets as soon as possible. =
=20

Yes.

> Obviously, link-layer error correction and other approaches which =
increase reliability without introducing delay are still welcome and =
valuable.

+1, though improved reliability almost always comes at the cost of =
increased delay (rtx, fec, etc.).=


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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:40:39 -0500
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To: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in particular)
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--00000000000005f34705c8575fec
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Hi, Jake,

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 PM Holland, Jake <jholland@akamai.com> wrote:

> Hi Spencer,
>
> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
> > Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM
> >
> > This was a very interesting side meeting.
>
> Thanks!
>
> > Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and
> > where the notes would be posted?
>
> I was thinking I'd send a follow-up message to mops and
> webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video
> once it's posted (there may be a slight delay).
>
> If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll
> probably also send one more follow-up message to mops,
> webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested
> parties to join, unless I get different guidance.
>
> If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF
> context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have
> been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome:
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/
>
> (NB: I'll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting
> tomorrow.)
>
> If you want to get involved in the overall project including
> the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that
> might be tangential to mboned, I'd also encourage joining the
> W3C list:
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/
>
> If you're able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly
> on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August
> 4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC).  The details are here:
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html
>
> Best regards,
> Jake
>

This is all very helpful! Thanks for the quick response.

Do you think a mailing list would be useful for coordinating things among
various venues? If so, please let me know - I know how to request that.

It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if
you decide that you do, please let me know - I'd love to help with that too=
.

Best,

Spencer

--00000000000005f34705c8575fec
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi, Jake,=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:=
59 PM Holland, Jake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jholland@akamai.com">jholland@aka=
mai.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex">Hi Spencer,<br>
<br>
From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This was a very interesting side meeting.<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
&gt; Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and<br>
&gt; where the notes would be posted?<br>
<br>
I was thinking I&#39;d send a follow-up message to mops and<br>
webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video<br>
once it&#39;s posted (there may be a slight delay).<br>
<br>
If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll<br>
probably also send one more follow-up message to mops,<br>
webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested<br>
parties to join, unless I get different guidance.<br>
<br>
If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF<br>
context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have<br>
been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-mboned-dorms/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-mboned-cbacc/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/" rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-=
mboned-ambi/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/" rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-=
mboned-mnat/</a><br>
<br>
(NB: I&#39;ll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting<br>
tomorrow.)<br>
<br>
If you want to get involved in the overall project including<br>
the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that<br>
might be tangential to mboned, I&#39;d also encourage joining the<br>
W3C list:<br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mu=
lticast/</a><br>
<br>
If you&#39;re able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly<br>
on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August<br>
4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC).=C2=A0 The details are here: <a hre=
f=3D"https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.htm=
l" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Publi=
c/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html</a><br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Jake<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is all very helpful! Thanks f=
or the quick response.</div><div><br></div><div>Do you think a mailing list=
 would be useful for coordinating things among various venues? If so, pleas=
e let me know - I know how to request that.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=
It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if y=
ou decide that you do, please let me know - I&#39;d love to help with that=
=C2=A0too.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Spencer=
=C2=A0</div></div></div>

--00000000000005f34705c8575fec--


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From: Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:58:15 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJU8_nUJM=shHf-me-Dk314-AYk=CpBO-RRG+CWmvo9aS2_tXQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mops/rSCQpf_JrfAFkujPU3EO5fWGsZA>
Subject: Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in particular)
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Given the existence of the new W3C multicast community group, one important
consideration at this early stage of work is to make sure we develop a
consistent, coherent vision. I would be in favor of a single mailing list
until/unless we get to a point where responsibility can be assigned to
groups working independently.

Kyle

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:41 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF <
spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, Jake,
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 PM Holland, Jake <jholland@akamai.com> wrote=
:
>
>> Hi Spencer,
>>
>> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
>> > Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM
>> >
>> > This was a very interesting side meeting.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> > Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and
>> > where the notes would be posted?
>>
>> I was thinking I'd send a follow-up message to mops and
>> webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video
>> once it's posted (there may be a slight delay).
>>
>> If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll
>> probably also send one more follow-up message to mops,
>> webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested
>> parties to join, unless I get different guidance.
>>
>> If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF
>> context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have
>> been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome:
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/
>>
>> (NB: I'll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting
>> tomorrow.)
>>
>> If you want to get involved in the overall project including
>> the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that
>> might be tangential to mboned, I'd also encourage joining the
>> W3C list:
>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/
>>
>> If you're able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly
>> on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August
>> 4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC).  The details are here:
>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Jake
>>
>
> This is all very helpful! Thanks for the quick response.
>
> Do you think a mailing list would be useful for coordinating things among
> various venues? If so, please let me know - I know how to request that.
>
> It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if
> you decide that you do, please let me know - I'd love to help with that t=
oo.
>
> Best,
>
> Spencer
> --
> Mops mailing list
> Mops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
>

--00000000000013933805c8579dc5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Giv=
en the existence of the new W3C multicast community group, one important co=
nsideration at this early stage of work is to make sure we develop a consis=
tent, coherent vision. I would be in favor of a single mailing list until/u=
nless we get to a point where responsibility can be assigned to groups work=
ing independently.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:sma=
ll"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Kyle<b=
r></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai=
l_attr">On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:41 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com">spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi, Jake,=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 P=
M Holland, Jake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jholland@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank=
">jholland@akamai.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex">Hi Spencer,<br>
<br>
From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This was a very interesting side meeting.<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
&gt; Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and<br>
&gt; where the notes would be posted?<br>
<br>
I was thinking I&#39;d send a follow-up message to mops and<br>
webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video<br>
once it&#39;s posted (there may be a slight delay).<br>
<br>
If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll<br>
probably also send one more follow-up message to mops,<br>
webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested<br>
parties to join, unless I get different guidance.<br>
<br>
If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF<br>
context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have<br>
been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-mboned-dorms/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-mboned-cbacc/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/" rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-=
mboned-ambi/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/" rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-=
mboned-mnat/</a><br>
<br>
(NB: I&#39;ll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting<br>
tomorrow.)<br>
<br>
If you want to get involved in the overall project including<br>
the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that<br>
might be tangential to mboned, I&#39;d also encourage joining the<br>
W3C list:<br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mu=
lticast/</a><br>
<br>
If you&#39;re able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly<br>
on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August<br>
4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC).=C2=A0 The details are here: <a hre=
f=3D"https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.htm=
l" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Publi=
c/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html</a><br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Jake<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is all very helpful! Thanks f=
or the quick response.</div><div><br></div><div>Do you think a mailing list=
 would be useful for coordinating things among various venues? If so, pleas=
e let me know - I know how to request that.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=
It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if y=
ou decide that you do, please let me know - I&#39;d love to help with that=
=C2=A0too.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Spencer=
=C2=A0</div></div></div>
-- <br>
Mops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Mops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000013933805c8579dc5--


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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 10:02:10 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKcm_gN2OtV9C52Q8O7O_tFHtj+XBfHZ=phZ4F4bCT6Q6jbArA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen=40networked.media@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Zaheduzzaman Sarker <zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com>,  Sergio Garcia Murillo <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>,  Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>,  "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>,  "nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de" <nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de>, =?UTF-8?Q?Anna_Brunstr=C3=B6m?= <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>,  David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>,  "markus.amend@telekom.de" <markus.amend@telekom.de>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC
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On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 5:27 AM Ali C. Begen <ali.begen=
40networked.media@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On Jul 30, 2021, at 5:42 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett=
> 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> >
> > To frame this in statistical terms, the sum of multiple normal
> distributions is a normal distribution with the sum of the means and a sum
> of the variances(
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variables).
> Since the standard deviation is the square root of the variance, the
> standard deviation is dominated by the largest source of variation, and if
> each link introduces some variance, it's really only the one that
> introduces the most variation that matters.
>
> Sure, but that assumes independent distributions which does not much apply
> in this case. But the point is still valid, there will likely be 1-2
> problematic hops in the entire ~10-20 e2e path.
>

Yes, assuming a normal distribution is almost certainly wrong, so I should
have apologized up front for that.  As long as the conclusion is valid for
any plausible set of distributions, we should be good.

>
> >  Given no link knows whether it's the dominant source of variation on
> the path, I'd suggest every link pass along packets as soon as possible.
>
> Yes.
>
> > Obviously, link-layer error correction and other approaches which
> increase reliability without introducing delay are still welcome and
> valuable.
>
> +1, though improved reliability almost always comes at the cost of
> increased delay (rtx, fec, etc.).

--0000000000001cb46205c857ab15
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 5:27 AM Ali C=
. Begen &lt;ali.begen=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40networked.media@dmarc.ietf.org"=
>40networked.media@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
&gt; On Jul 30, 2021, at 5:42 AM, Ian Swett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailt=
o:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; To frame this in statistical terms, the sum of multiple normal distrib=
utions is a normal distribution with the sum of the means and a sum of the =
variances(<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distribu=
ted_random_variables" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://en.wikip=
edia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variables</a>).=C2=A0 Sinc=
e the standard deviation is the square root of the variance, the standard d=
eviation is dominated by the largest source of variation, and if each link =
introduces some variance, it&#39;s really only the one that introduces the =
most variation that matters.<br>
<br>
Sure, but that assumes independent distributions which does not much apply =
in this case. But the point is still valid, there will likely be 1-2 proble=
matic hops in the entire ~10-20 e2e path.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>Yes, assuming a normal distribution is almost certainly wrong, so I shou=
ld have apologized up front for that.=C2=A0 As long as the conclusion is va=
lid for any plausible set of distributions, we should be good.=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 Given no link knows whether it&#39;s the dominant source of vari=
ation on the path, I&#39;d suggest every link pass along packets as soon as=
 possible.=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
Yes.<br>
<br>
&gt; Obviously, link-layer error correction and other approaches which incr=
ease reliability without introducing delay are still welcome and valuable.<=
br>
<br>
+1, though improved reliability almost always comes at the cost of increase=
d delay (rtx, fec, etc.).</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000001cb46205c857ab15--


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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:06:52 -0500
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Trimming down to just the mailing lists, because I was getting rejection
messages from AVTCORE because of too many addresses in To/CC ...

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9:43 PM Ian Swett <ianswett=3D
40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> TLDR: Ideally, handling reordering on the receiving host will
> reduce user latency and be cheaper for everyone.
>
> Changing the TCP ecosystem is slow, so I can't advise immediately doing
> this for TCP traffic, but doing this now for QUIC(and maybe documenting i=
t
> in Manageability?) seems viable.  If we wait longer, the ecosystem will b=
e
> ossified.  I'm not sure anyone is willing to introduce intentional
> reordering to GREASE the loss detection system and ensure implementations
> adapt, but I'll discuss if that's something we would do for some traffic
> when sending multi-packet bursts.
>
> I believe the vast majority of QUIC applications would benefit from
> increased reordering if it reduced latency and buffering.  In TCP, you ca=
n
> detect reordering from the sequence number.  But for QUIC, the metadata i=
s
> encrypted, so a given network can only attempt to reduce reordering in a
> much narrower context, which is much less useful.  Add into that the fact
> you don't know the application, and the benefits of delaying packets with=
in
> the network/path become even more difficult to reason about.
>

I utterly and completely agree with what Ian says here (and echo Jake's
subsequent +1), and I note that although we seem to be keeping "multipath
QUIC" on the QUIC back-burner, applications that manage multiple paths at
the application level, especially if those paths are largely divergent,
make those benefits even further more difficult to reason about.

So maybe "bringing on the grease for reordering" would be a great thing to
do, before the network elements start trying to be helpful.

Best,

Spencer


> To frame this in statistical terms, the sum of multiple normal
> distributions is a normal distribution with the sum of the means and a su=
m
> of the variances(
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variable=
s).
> Since the standard deviation is the square root of the variance, the
> standard deviation is dominated by the largest source of variation, and i=
f
> each link introduces some variance, it's really only the one that
> introduces the most variation that matters.  Given no link knows whether
> it's the dominant source of variation on the path, I'd suggest every link
> pass along packets as soon as possible.  Obviously, link-layer error
> correction and other approaches which increase reliability without
> introducing delay are still welcome and valuable.
>
> Thanks, Ian
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 2:10 PM Zaheduzzaman Sarker <
> zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>> I would say this is not specific to media over QUIC. However, a potentia=
l
>> solution to this could boost the deployment of potential radio technolog=
ies
>> ( for example - Unacknowledgement Mode (UM) of RLC in cellular networks)
>> which might actually help low latency media usecases.
>>
>>
>>
>> BR
>>
>> Zahed
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2021-07-29, 22:35, "QUIC on behalf of Sergio Garcia Murillo" <
>> quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Just for clarification, if this needs to be handled, this should be
>> handled at QUIC level and it is not an specific problem for the Media ov=
er
>> QUIC protocol, right?
>>
>>
>>
>> El jue., 29 jul. 2021 18:15, Holland, Jake <jholland=3D
>> 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> escribi=C3=B3:
>>
>> Hi Anna,
>>
>>
>>
>> (And replacing Nathalie=E2=80=99s email with the correct one, hopefully)
>>
>>
>>
>> That was not quite my understanding, no.  Sorry if I opened this
>> discussion poorly.  In Nathalie=E2=80=99s initial response, she clarifie=
d that it=E2=80=99s
>> configurable, including the option to disable the reordering buffer.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, I understood this as an option available to the service provide=
r
>> operating the MP-DCCP split path proxies that tunnel the carried traffic=
,
>> not necessarily to the endpoints or the applications having their traffi=
c
>> split.
>>
>>
>>
>> Depending on how it=E2=80=99s deployed, this may or may not be a problem=
 for
>> particular endpoints, but I couldn=E2=80=99t tell if there was an obviou=
s or easy
>> way for an application to select the use case (particularly one that is
>> just trying to use QUIC and transparently getting traffic-splitting
>> delivery) in a way that the operator will understand, so I thought it be=
st
>> to raise the point for discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jakean/listinfo/mops <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops>
>>
>>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Trimming down to just the mailing lists, because I wa=
s getting rejection messages from AVTCORE because of too many addresses in =
To/CC ...</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9:43 PM Ian Swett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=
=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>TLDR: Ideally, handling reordering on the receiving host will=
 reduce=C2=A0user=C2=A0latency and be cheaper for everyone.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Changing the TCP ecosystem is slow, so I can&#39;t advise immedia=
tely doing this for TCP traffic, but doing this now for QUIC(and maybe docu=
menting it in Manageability?) seems viable.=C2=A0 If we wait longer, the=C2=
=A0ecosystem will be ossified.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure anyone is willing to =
introduce intentional reordering to GREASE the loss detection system and en=
sure implementations adapt, but I&#39;ll discuss if that&#39;s something we=
 would do for some traffic when sending multi-packet bursts.</div><div></di=
v><div><br></div><div>I believe the vast majority of QUIC applications woul=
d benefit from increased reordering if it reduced latency and buffering.=C2=
=A0 In TCP, you can detect reordering from the sequence number.=C2=A0 But f=
or QUIC, the metadata is encrypted, so a given network can only attempt to =
reduce reordering in a much narrower context, which is much less useful.=C2=
=A0 Add into that the fact you don&#39;t know the application, and the bene=
fits of delaying packets within the network/path become even more difficult=
 to reason about.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I utterly and=
 completely agree with what Ian says here (and echo Jake&#39;s subsequent=
=C2=A0+1), and I note that although we seem to be keeping &quot;multipath Q=
UIC&quot; on the QUIC back-burner, applications that manage multiple paths =
at the application level, especially if those paths are largely divergent, =
make those benefits even further more difficult to reason about.=C2=A0</div=
><div><br></div><div>So maybe &quot;bringing on the grease for reordering&q=
uot; would be a great thing to do, before the network elements start trying=
=C2=A0to be helpful.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Spencer</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>To frame this=C2=A0in statistical terms,=
 the sum of multiple normal distributions is a normal distribution with the=
 sum of the means and a sum of the variances(<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedi=
a.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variables" target=3D"_blank">=
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variables<=
/a>).=C2=A0 Since the standard deviation is the square root of the variance=
, the standard deviation is dominated by the largest source of variation, a=
nd if each link introduces some variance, it&#39;s really only the one that=
 introduces the most variation that matters.=C2=A0 Given no link knows whet=
her it&#39;s the dominant source of variation on the path, I&#39;d suggest =
every link pass along packets as soon as possible.=C2=A0 Obviously, link-la=
yer error correction and other approaches which increase reliability withou=
t introducing delay are still welcome and valuable.<br></div><div><br></div=
><div>Thanks, Ian</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 29, 2021=
 at 2:10 PM Zaheduzzaman Sarker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zaheduzzaman.sarker@e=
ricsson.com" target=3D"_blank">zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"en-SE">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
I would say this is not specific to media over QUIC. However, a potential s=
olution to this could boost the deployment of potential radio technologies =
( for example - Unacknowledgement
 Mode (UM) of RLC in cellular networks) which might actually help low laten=
cy media usecases.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
BR<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">=
Zahed =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">On 2021-07-29, 22:35, &qu=
ot;QUIC on behalf of Sergio Garcia Murillo&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic=
-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sergio=
.garcia.murillo@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">Just for clarification, i=
f this needs to be handled, this should be handled at QUIC level and it is =
not an specific problem for the Media over QUIC protocol, right?<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">El jue., 29 jul. 2021 18:=
15, Holland, Jake &lt;jholland=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Anna,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">(And replacing Nathalie=E2=80=99s email with the corre=
ct one, hopefully)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">That was not quite my understanding, no.=C2=A0 Sorry i=
f I opened this discussion poorly.=C2=A0 In Nathalie=E2=80=99s initial resp=
onse, she clarified that it=E2=80=99s configurable, including the option to=
 disable the reordering buffer.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">However, I understood this as an option available to t=
he service provider operating the MP-DCCP split path proxies that tunnel th=
e carried traffic, not necessarily to the endpoints or the applications hav=
ing their traffic split.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Depending on how it=E2=80=99s deployed, this may or ma=
y not be a problem for particular endpoints, but I couldn=E2=80=99t tell if=
 there was an obvious or easy way for an application to select the use case=
 (particularly one that is just trying to use QUIC
 and transparently getting traffic-splitting delivery) in a way that the op=
erator will understand, so I thought it best to raise the point for discuss=
ion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Jake</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/mops" target=3D"_blank">an/listinfo/mops</a></p></div></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000d6579405c857bc94--


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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:10:00 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKKJt-eTBS8Zps1TJ6ECeNyGe2vNAbs5UWESG=hgjyiZiX7qmw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>
Cc: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mops/mO9ljV82-N8aKvIzLhuyI_cmcr4>
Subject: Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in particular)
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Hi, Kyle,

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 8:58 AM Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org> wrote:

> Given the existence of the new W3C multicast community group, one
> important consideration at this early stage of work is to make sure we
> develop a consistent, coherent vision. I would be in favor of a single
> mailing list until/unless we get to a point where responsibility can be
> assigned to groups working independently.
>

Makes sense to me, even if it's only used for coordination, and all of
the technical work goes somewhere else.

Do you and/or Jake have thoughts about whether that needs to be a new
mailing list, or whether something that already exists is fit for purpose?

Best,

Spencer


> Kyle
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:41 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF <
> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi, Jake,
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 PM Holland, Jake <jholland@akamai.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Spencer,
>>>
>>> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
>>> > Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM
>>> >
>>> > This was a very interesting side meeting.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> > Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and
>>> > where the notes would be posted?
>>>
>>> I was thinking I'd send a follow-up message to mops and
>>> webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video
>>> once it's posted (there may be a slight delay).
>>>
>>> If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll
>>> probably also send one more follow-up message to mops,
>>> webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested
>>> parties to join, unless I get different guidance.
>>>
>>> If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF
>>> context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have
>>> been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome:
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/
>>>
>>> (NB: I'll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting
>>> tomorrow.)
>>>
>>> If you want to get involved in the overall project including
>>> the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that
>>> might be tangential to mboned, I'd also encourage joining the
>>> W3C list:
>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/
>>>
>>> If you're able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly
>>> on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August
>>> 4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC).  The details are here:
>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Jake
>>>
>>
>> This is all very helpful! Thanks for the quick response.
>>
>> Do you think a mailing list would be useful for coordinating things amon=
g
>> various venues? If so, please let me know - I know how to request that.
>>
>> It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but i=
f
>> you decide that you do, please let me know - I'd love to help with that =
too.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Spencer
>> --
>> Mops mailing list
>> Mops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
>>
>

--00000000000005bcad05c857c8e7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi, Kyle,=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 8:=
58 AM Kyle Rose &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:krose@krose.org">krose@krose.org</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:small">Given the existence of the new W=
3C multicast community group, one important consideration at this early sta=
ge of work is to make sure we develop a consistent, coherent vision. I woul=
d be in favor of a single mailing list until/unless we get to a point where=
 responsibility can be assigned to groups working independently.</div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Makes sense to me,=C2=A0even if it&#39;s =
only used for coordination,=C2=A0and all of the=C2=A0technical work goes so=
mewhere else.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Do you and/or Jake have though=
ts about whether that needs to be a new mailing list, or whether something =
that already exists is fit for purpose?</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div=
><div><br></div><div>Spencer</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:small">K=
yle<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:41 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">spencerdaw=
kins.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi, Jake,=C2=A0</div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu,=
 Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 PM Holland, Jake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jholland@akama=
i.com" target=3D"_blank">jholland@akamai.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Spencer,<br>
<br>
From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This was a very interesting side meeting.<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
&gt; Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and<br>
&gt; where the notes would be posted?<br>
<br>
I was thinking I&#39;d send a follow-up message to mops and<br>
webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video<br>
once it&#39;s posted (there may be a slight delay).<br>
<br>
If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll<br>
probably also send one more follow-up message to mops,<br>
webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested<br>
parties to join, unless I get different guidance.<br>
<br>
If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF<br>
context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have<br>
been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-mboned-dorms/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-mboned-cbacc/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/" rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-=
mboned-ambi/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/" rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-=
mboned-mnat/</a><br>
<br>
(NB: I&#39;ll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting<br>
tomorrow.)<br>
<br>
If you want to get involved in the overall project including<br>
the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that<br>
might be tangential to mboned, I&#39;d also encourage joining the<br>
W3C list:<br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mu=
lticast/</a><br>
<br>
If you&#39;re able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly<br>
on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August<br>
4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC).=C2=A0 The details are here: <a hre=
f=3D"https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.htm=
l" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Publi=
c/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html</a><br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Jake<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is all very helpful! Thanks f=
or the quick response.</div><div><br></div><div>Do you think a mailing list=
 would be useful for coordinating things among various venues? If so, pleas=
e let me know - I know how to request that.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=
It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if y=
ou decide that you do, please let me know - I&#39;d love to help with that=
=C2=A0too.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Spencer=
=C2=A0</div></div></div>
-- <br>
Mops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Mops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000005bcad05c857c8e7--


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Subject: [Mops] VC CHANGED - Video Ingest over QUIC, Today 1800 UTC
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From: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>
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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 11:14:55 -0500
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To: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>
Cc: Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>
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Subject: Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in particular)
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Hi, Jake,

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:52 AM Holland, Jake <jholland@akamai.com> wrote:

> Hi Spencer,
>
>
>
> mops is pretty clearly the wrong discussion venue :) (moved to bcc, so
> reply if you=E2=80=99d like to be on the thread...)
>

Good idea (and I wish I'd thought of trimming the cc: list earlier - or at
least intentionally removing WISH and AVTCORE!)

Because I agree that MOPS is not the right home (and Kyle and Leslie can
override me on that), I added them back as bcc:, just because I'm drawing
conclusions about your answer. No need to annoy them further.

 Thus far mboned has been my idea of the closest match, but I think
> draft-krose-multicast-security gets a little hard to argue it=E2=80=99s i=
n scope.
>
>
>
> And really, I think AMBI and to a lesser extent DORMS is in the same
> boat.  Although we got some early advice it could be done in mboned with
> just some review from the security area due to not using any novel crypto
> and the general approach being a well-established authentication strategy=
,
> it does touch on some security questions that are kind of a stretch for
> mboned, especially when we try to consider it in a web security
> requirements.  And even more so if we want to bring back ALTA at some poi=
nt
> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-krose-mboned-alta/).
>
>
>
> Previously there has been a much heavier routing area overlap than
> security area overlap in mboned, and you=E2=80=99d have to look back to m=
sec (and
> maybe some rmt) to have a closer match in membership.  And a lot of the
> people who might be interested in discussing multicast=E2=80=99s security
> implications in a web security context might reasonably be much less
> interested in some of the other mboned docs, and vice versa...
>
>
>
> I thought the best approach would probably be =E2=80=9Creopen msec=E2=80=
=9D.  Last time we
> took that to secdispatch (with alta, maybe at 106 or so?) they said to co=
me
> back with more people, so that=E2=80=99s what I was trying to do for Nove=
mber, if
> webtransport didn=E2=80=99t want us.
>

The more we chat about homes for discussion (and especially coordination),
the more I'm thinking that requesting a new mailing list, where interested
people can work to coordinate at least two or three moving pieces that span
multiple areas, is the right thing to do - not for any solutions work, but
just to make sure that you (and the rest of us) can make sure that we
haven't forgotten or overlooked anything that's necessary for success.

I THINK you're talking about work that is of interest in SEC and ART (and
W3C), and relying on expertise from RTG, OPS, and maybe even INT and TSV,
so it should be pretty easy to find an AD to approve a request for a non-WG
IETF mailing list. =F0=9F=98=9C

If that sounds like a plan to you, the procedure for that request is at
https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/nonwglist-guidelines/ (and you'll need to
pick "an appropriate AD", so talking to your pick first is usually a good
thing). You can also bikeshed on the name of the mailing list privately
with your AD.

If you want to look at an example, the most recent non-WG mailing list is
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e2ee, I believe. The usual things
that trip requesters up (in my experience) was not providing both a
summary, and a bit more detailed description, and not providing at least
one proposed administrator.

Finally - I'm not sure what I've actually said to you about this, but I'm
glad you're doing this work, and even more glad that you're bringing it to
the IETF. Obviously, it matters to the Internet.

Best,

Spencer

 Best,
>
> Jake
>
>
>
> *From: *Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Fri,2021-07-30 at 7:10 AM
> *To: *Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>
> *Cc: *"Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <
> mops@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in
> particular)
>
>
>
> Hi, Kyle,
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 8:58 AM Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org> wrote:
>
> Given the existence of the new W3C multicast community group, one
> important consideration at this early stage of work is to make sure we
> develop a consistent, coherent vision. I would be in favor of a single
> mailing list until/unless we get to a point where responsibility can be
> assigned to groups working independently.
>
>
>
> Makes sense to me, even if it's only used for coordination, and all of
> the technical work goes somewhere else.
>
>
>
> Do you and/or Jake have thoughts about whether that needs to be a new
> mailing list, or whether something that already exists is fit for purpose=
?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Spencer
>
>
>
> Kyle
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:41 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF <
> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Jake,
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 PM Holland, Jake <jholland@akamai.com> wrote=
:
>
> Hi Spencer,
>
> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
> > Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM
> >
> > This was a very interesting side meeting.
>
> Thanks!
>
> > Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and
> > where the notes would be posted?
>
> I was thinking I'd send a follow-up message to mops and
> webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video
> once it's posted (there may be a slight delay).
>
> If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll
> probably also send one more follow-up message to mops,
> webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested
> parties to join, unless I get different guidance.
>
> If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF
> context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have
> been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome:
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned_=
_;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xv7u3NB=
M$>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-m=
boned-dorms/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvY=
UL3Uh2xgA4v7bE$>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-m=
boned-cbacc/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvY=
UL3Uh2x_D09FJ4$>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-m=
boned-ambi/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYU=
L3Uh2xcQ6xheg$>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-m=
boned-mnat/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYU=
L3Uh2xiOdIYdA$>
>
> (NB: I'll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting
> tomorrow.)
>
> If you want to get involved in the overall project including
> the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that
> might be tangential to mboned, I'd also encourage joining the
> W3C list:
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-m=
ulticast/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3=
Uh2xsNtErYE$>
>
> If you're able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly
> on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August
> 4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC).  The details are here:
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-m=
ulticast/2021Jul/0004.html__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L=
9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xUZBGgWo$>
>
> Best regards,
> Jake
>
>
>
> This is all very helpful! Thanks for the quick response.
>
>
>
> Do you think a mailing list would be useful for coordinating things among
> various venues? If so, please let me know - I know how to request that.
>
>
>
> It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if
> you decide that you do, please let me know - I'd love to help with that t=
oo.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Spencer
>
> --
> Mops mailing list
> Mops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops__;=
!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xeTNudAk$=
>
>
>

--000000000000c6584205c85986be
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi, Jake,=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:=
52 AM Holland, Jake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jholland@akamai.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">jholland@akamai.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Spencer,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">mops is pretty clearly the wrong discussion venue :)=
 (moved to bcc, so reply if you=E2=80=99d like to be on the thread...)</p><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Good idea (and I wish I&#39;d t=
hought of trimming the cc: list earlier - or at least intentionally removin=
g WISH and AVTCORE!)</div><div><br></div><div>Because I agree that MOPS is =
not the right home (and Kyle and Leslie can override me on that), I added t=
hem back as bcc:, just because I&#39;m drawing conclusions about your answe=
r. No need to annoy them further.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0Thus far mboned has been my idea of the=
 closest match, but I think draft-krose-multicast-security gets a little ha=
rd to argue it=E2=80=99s in scope.</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And really, I think AMBI and to a lesser extent DORM=
S is in the same boat.=C2=A0 Although we got some early advice it could be =
done in mboned with just some review from the security area due to not usin=
g any novel crypto and the general approach
 being a well-established authentication strategy, it does touch on some se=
curity questions that are kind of a stretch for mboned, especially when we =
try to consider it in a web security requirements.=C2=A0 And even more so i=
f we want to bring back ALTA at some
 point (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-krose-mboned-alta=
/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-krose-mboned-al=
ta/</a>).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Previously there has been a much heavier routing are=
a overlap than security area overlap in mboned, and you=E2=80=99d have to l=
ook back to msec (and maybe some rmt) to have a closer match in membership.=
=C2=A0 And a lot of the people who might be interested
 in discussing multicast=E2=80=99s security implications in a web security =
context might reasonably be much less interested in some of the other mbone=
d docs, and vice versa...<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought the best approach would probably be =E2=80=
=9Creopen msec=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Last time we took that to secdispatch (with =
alta, maybe at 106 or so?) they said to come back with more people, so that=
=E2=80=99s what I was trying to do for November, if webtransport
 didn=E2=80=99t want us.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Th=
e more we chat about homes for discussion (and especially coordination), th=
e more I&#39;m thinking that requesting a new mailing list, where intereste=
d people can work to coordinate at least two or three moving pieces that sp=
an multiple areas, is the right thing to do - not for any solutions work, b=
ut just to make sure that you (and the rest of us) can make sure that we ha=
ven&#39;t forgotten or overlooked anything that&#39;s necessary for success=
.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I THINK you&#39;re talking about work that=
 is of interest in SEC and ART (and W3C), and relying on expertise=C2=A0fro=
m RTG, OPS, and maybe even INT and TSV, so it should be pretty easy to find=
 an AD to approve a request for a non-WG IETF mailing list.=C2=A0=F0=9F=98=
=9C</div><div><br></div><div>If that sounds like a plan to you, the procedu=
re for that request is at=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/no=
nwglist-guidelines/" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/nonwg=
list-guidelines/</a> (and you&#39;ll need to pick &quot;an appropriate AD&q=
uot;, so talking to your pick first is usually a good thing). You can also =
bikeshed on the name of the mailing list privately with your AD.=C2=A0</div=
><div><br></div><div>If you want to look at an example, the most recent non=
-WG mailing list is=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e=
2ee">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e2ee</a>, I believe. The usual t=
hings that trip requesters up (in my experience) was not providing both a s=
ummary, and a bit more detailed description, and not providing at least one=
 proposed administrator.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Finally - I&#39;m n=
ot sure what I&#39;ve actually said to you about this, but I&#39;m glad you=
&#39;re doing this work, and even more glad that you&#39;re bringing it to =
the IETF. Obviously, it matters to the Internet.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Spencer</div><div><br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0Best,</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jake<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: =
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Spencer Dawkins at IE=
TF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">s=
pencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Fri,2021-07-30 at 7:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Kyle Rose &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:krose@krose.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">krose@krose.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Holland, Jake&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jholland@akamai.=
com" target=3D"_blank">jholland@akamai.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto=
:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mops@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in p=
articular)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, Kyle,=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 8:58 AM Kyle Rose &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:krose@krose.org" target=3D"_blank">krose@krose.org</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Given the existence o=
f the new W3C multicast community group, one important consideration at thi=
s early stage of work is to make sure we develop a consistent, coherent vis=
ion. I would be in favor of a single
 mailing list until/unless we get to a point where responsibility can be as=
signed to groups working independently.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Makes sense to me,=C2=A0even if it&#39;s only used f=
or coordination,=C2=A0and all of the=C2=A0technical work goes somewhere els=
e.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do you and/or Jake have thoughts about whether that =
needs to be a new mailing list, or whether something that already exists is=
 fit for purpose?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Spencer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Kyle<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:41 AM Spencer Dawkins at I=
ETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, Jake,=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 PM Holland, Jake &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:jholland@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">jholland@akamai.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Spencer,<br>
<br>
From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This was a very interesting side meeting.<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
&gt; Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and<br>
&gt; where the notes would be posted?<br>
<br>
I was thinking I&#39;d send a follow-up message to mops and<br>
webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video<br>
once it&#39;s posted (there may be a slight delay).<br>
<br>
If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll<br>
probably also send one more follow-up message to mops,<br>
webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested<br>
parties to join, unless I get different guidance.<br>
<br>
If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF<br>
context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have<br>
been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome:<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/mboned__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh=
2xv7u3NBM$" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned<=
/a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-mboned-dorms/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt=
4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xgA4v7bE$" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-mboned-cbacc/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt=
4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2x_D09FJ4$" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-mboned-ambi/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4=
a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xcQ6xheg$" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-mboned-mnat/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4=
a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xiOdIYdA$" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/</a><br>
<br>
(NB: I&#39;ll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting<br>
tomorrow.)<br>
<br>
If you want to get involved in the overall project including<br>
the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that<br>
might be tangential to mboned, I&#39;d also encourage joining the<br>
W3C list:<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/=
public-multicast/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9=
KyZvYUL3Uh2xsNtErYE$" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Publi=
c/public-multicast/</a><br>
<br>
If you&#39;re able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly<br>
on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August<br>
4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC).=C2=A0 The details are here: <a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public=
-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l=
_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xUZBGgWo$" target=3D"_blank">
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html</a>=
<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Jake<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is all very helpful! Thanks for the quick respo=
nse.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do you think a mailing list would be useful for coor=
dinating things among various venues? If so, please let me know - I know ho=
w to request that.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue be=
fore IETF 112, but if you decide that you do, please let me know - I&#39;d =
love to help with that=C2=A0too.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Spencer=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <br>
Mops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Mops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/mops__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2x=
eTNudAk$" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops</a><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

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