From morg-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 02 16:54:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjLq2-0003yz-Pu; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:54:14 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjLq0-0003yp-IN for morg@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:54:12 -0400 Received: from [64.118.83.132] (helo=mx1.asnetinc.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjLq0-0006sY-Ag for morg@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:54:12 -0400 Received: (qmail 24134 invoked by uid 1006); 2 May 2007 20:54:12 -0000 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 20:54:12 +0000 From: Dave To: morg@ietf.org Message-ID: <20070502205412.GZ14523@s1.asnetinc.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.14 (2007-02-28) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Subject: [MORG] Re: Welcome to the "MORG" mailing list X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 04:13:15PM -0400, morg-request@ietf.org wrote: > Welcome to the MORG@ietf.org mailing list! > > To post to this list, send your email to: > > morg@ietf.org okay > Note Well > > Any submission to the IETF intended by the Contributor for publication > as all or part of an IETF Internet-Draft or RFC and any statement made > within the context of an IETF activity is considered an "IETF > Contribution". Such statements include oral statements in IETF > sessions, as well as written and electronic communications made at any > time or place, which are addressed to: > > - the IETF plenary session, > - any IETF working group or portion thereof, > - the IESG, or any member thereof on behalf of the IESG, > - the IAB or any member thereof on behalf of the IAB, > - any IETF mailing list, including the IETF list itself, any > working group or design team list, or any other list > functioning under IETF auspices, > - the RFC Editor or the Internet-Drafts function > > All IETF Contributions are subject to the rules of RFC 3978 (updated > by RFC 4748) and RFC 3979. > > Statements made outside of an IETF session, mailing list or other > function, that are clearly not intended to be input to an IETF > activity, group or function, are not IETF Contributions in the context > of this notice. > > Please consult RFC 3978 (and RFC 4748) for details. > > A participant in any IETF activity is deemed to accept all IETF rules > of process, as documented in Best Current Practices RFCs and IESG > Statements. > > A participant in any IETF activity acknowledges that written, audio > and video records of meetings may be made and may be available to the > public. I'm not prepared to locate and read all the documents mentioned above (especially since some don't even have their identity - much less location - spelled out) before participating in this list. In other words, contrary to whatever the mysterious documents alluded to above may have to say on the topic, this email is copyright 2007, and all rights other than [1] are retained by the copyright holder. You may still have certain other rights with respect to this message granted to you by applicable law. If there are certain other rights that the IETF would like me to surrender, I'm prepared to consider them on a one-by-one basis. I can't be expected to blindly agree to a bunch of statements referencing some numbered RFCs, some unnumbered RFCs, and "IESG Statements," just to find out what rights I'm being "deemed" to surrender. Note to moderator: Please note that this message was not intended for the list itself (although [1] allows you to post it to the list, if you really want to for some reason), but rather for the list's RP, i.e., the entity "deeming" me to have agreed to a whole bunch of unnamed terms. Unfortunately, I could not find any mention of an email address for the list's RP, so I'm forced to use the standard list email address instead. (The -request address is a bot, and not a very smart one at that: in particular, it doesn't understand "Take me to your leader.") It is my hope that this message may be intercepted by its intended recipient, in order to avoid OT traffic on-list. Thanks, - Dave [1] The copyright holder expressly gives perpetual, irrevocable permission to republish this message in its entirety (including but not limited to the From: and Subject: headers) in any medium for any purpose. _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg From morg-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 03 08:14:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjaCI-0007Xg-1K; Thu, 03 May 2007 08:14:10 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjaCH-0007Xb-7c for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 08:14:09 -0400 Received: from dsl-217-155-137-60.zen.co.uk ([217.155.137.60] helo=turner.dave.cridland.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjaCE-0006yk-NX for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 08:14:09 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9160E498003 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 13:14:05 +0100 (BST) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (turner.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14489-01 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 13:14:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from invsysm1 (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC80E498001 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 13:14:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: [MORG] Re: Welcome to the "MORG" mailing list References: <20070502205412.GZ14523@s1.asnetinc.net> In-Reply-To: <20070502205412.GZ14523@s1.asnetinc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <23594.1178194443.693674@invsysm1> Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 13:14:03 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Messaging Organization Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at turner.dave.cridland.net X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org On Wed May 2 21:54:12 2007, Dave wrote: > I'm not prepared to locate and read all the documents mentioned > above > (especially since some don't even have their identity - much less > location - spelled out) before participating in this list. As list administrator, I'd just like to make things very clear on this point. The Note Well text - which is stock text that's presented in sessions, on the website, and on subscription to a mailing list - is very clear in what it says. This isn't the right place to discuss it. If you don't want to read the RFCs it cites, DO NOT POST. If you read them, but don't understand them, DO NOT POST. If you read them, but do not agree, DO NOT POST. You may need to seek legal advice, or your employer's permission, in order to submit to the rules. This is an IETF Mailing List, and any post you make to it - including Dave's I quote here - can be taken as an explicit agreement to the rules, which aren't particularly onerous, and don't just affect copyright, but IPR and Trademarks, too. As for other process documents which might affect us as we work, I'll do my best to draw people's attention to these as and when they impact us - I've been trying to pull in people outside the usual IETF suspects, so we've hopefully got some new IETF participants here not well-versed in the IETF's ways. In the meantime, since those who disagree with the Note Well can't post without explicitly agreeing to it, I'm assuming this topic will be naturally dropped. :-) Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg From morg-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 03 09:19:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjbDJ-0000Ue-7W; Thu, 03 May 2007 09:19:17 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjbDI-0000UW-GW for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 09:19:16 -0400 Received: from dsl-217-155-137-60.zen.co.uk ([217.155.137.60] helo=turner.dave.cridland.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjbDG-00089h-VQ for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 09:19:16 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B54D498003 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 14:19:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (turner.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14489-07 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 14:19:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from invsysm1 (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23F6498001 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 14:19:12 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:19:12 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Messaging Organization Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at turner.dave.cridland.net X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Subject: [MORG] Plan of Action X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org Hi folks, A quick recap on what we're doing here. I know we've some people who're not familiar with the IETF here, and some people who've not seen the thread on IMAPEXT which kicked this list into life. This list has been created to look carefully at how existing mail clients search through, sort, and generally organize email. We're also going to - hopefully - have client developers talk about what they'd like to be able to do. There's another group that might be interested in this, too - the "desktop search" people might well be interested in the ability to search effectively through remote message stores. Kjetil commented (on IMAPEXT) that this area might be very interesting to IMAP webmail people, who can't simply download everything and work locally, so if there are any IMAP webmail developers about it'd be interesting to hear from you, and if anyone knows any, please invite them to join. Meanwhile, we're also going to look at what features we have on the store - the IMAP server - that we can leverage for this. There's a number of RFCs and Drafts in the area of searching, organization, etc, and we'll need to ensure we're all aware of the current state of play. So, IMAP specialists need to start to enumerate these - any volunteers? It occurs to me that both the above might benefit from a Wiki page or two - Lisa, is there an Apps Wiki we can use for this, or should I just set one up? [For anyone new to the IETF, Lisa and Chris are the Applications Area Directors] Finally, we'll look at what new work we can do to satisfy client requirements, write up a draft charter, and move to BOF (the first stage in forming a new IETF working group), aiming to form a new working group to do the work, and produce RFCs as we decide is appropriate. I'd like to take a decision on going down this road after Chicago in the summer, hopefully ready for a BOF at the IETF in December. I personally think our ultimate output is likely to be some Standards Track and some Experimental specifications for extensions, and maybe a couple of Informational documents on how this stuff ties together. I'd also note that searching is something that, like a lot of IETF work, has patent minefields in places - please do read that Note Well stuff, and let us know of any IPR you're aware of as soon as you can. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg From morg-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 03 10:36:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjcQN-0001ft-0a; Thu, 03 May 2007 10:36:51 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjcQL-0001fM-KR for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 10:36:49 -0400 Received: from mail.freax.org ([86.39.154.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjcQK-0008VT-B2 for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 10:36:49 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 683AC19F1B8; Thu, 3 May 2007 16:19:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.freax.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.freax.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eFvazD5PaL2A; Thu, 3 May 2007 16:19:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.113] (d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be [84.192.238.20]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CBED19F16C; Thu, 3 May 2007 16:19:30 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [MORG] Plan of Action From: Philip Van Hoof To: Dave Cridland In-Reply-To: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> References: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 16:36:38 +0200 Message-Id: <1178202999.6858.48.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, 2007-05-03 at 14:19 +0100, Dave Cridland wrote: > This list has been created to look carefully at how existing mail > clients search through, sort, and generally organize email. We're > also going to - hopefully - have client developers talk about what > they'd like to be able to do. One thing that might be important with searching is to have IDLE integrated with it. I'm hoping to see NOTIFY and CONTEXT become adopted for this. Second to have a search that spans more than one folder, and having an IDLE that works on that too. Third a lot people don't really ask for folders, they ask for virtual folders based on tags that they'll mark their messages with. So A search that can efficiently work with this tagging. You could see a tag as the equivalent of a folder, only that a message can have n tags in stead of only one folder. -- Philip Van Hoof, software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://www.pvanhoof.be/blog _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg From morg-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 03 11:26:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjdC9-0008P3-F7; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:26:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hjd5V-0005Fo-Bg for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:19:21 -0400 Received: from corp-fw-main.jabber.com ([207.182.164.14] helo=wrk225.corp.jabber.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hjd1S-0002Rv-7F for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:15:11 -0400 Received: from wrk225.corp.jabber.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wrk225.corp.jabber.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00E916144E4; Thu, 3 May 2007 09:16:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4639FCB2.6020901@jabber.org> Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 09:16:02 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre Organization: XMPP Standards Foundation User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/20070326 Thunderbird/2.0.0.0 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Cridland Subject: Re: [MORG] Plan of Action References: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> In-Reply-To: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> Jabber-ID: stpeter@jabber.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97c820c82c68af374c4e382a80dc5017 Cc: Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1529955411==" Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============1529955411== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070605060403070908000208" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070605060403070908000208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cridland wrote: > A quick recap on what we're doing here. I know we've some people who're > not familiar with the IETF here, and some people who've not seen the > thread on IMAPEXT which kicked this list into life. > > This list has been created to look carefully at how existing mail > clients search through, sort, and generally organize email. We're also > going to - hopefully - have client developers talk about what they'd > like to be able to do. There's another group that might be interested in > this, too - the "desktop search" people might well be interested in the > ability to search effectively through remote message stores. Messaging is more than email. We might want to rope in some folks from the IM world might as well. I can try to represent their interests, but I'm not a client developer. > Kjetil commented (on IMAPEXT) that this area might be very interesting > to IMAP webmail people, who can't simply download everything and work > locally, so if there are any IMAP webmail developers about it'd be > interesting to hear from you, and if anyone knows any, please invite > them to join. FWIW, in the XMPP community we have been working on ways to archive messages server-side: http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0136.html So searching those archives is a logical extension of that work. > Meanwhile, we're also going to look at what features we have on the > store - the IMAP server - that we can leverage for this. There's a > number of RFCs and Drafts in the area of searching, organization, etc, > and we'll need to ensure we're all aware of the current state of play. RFC 4417 (Report of the 2004 IAB Messaging Workshop) may be of interest, too: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4417.txt Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre XMPP Standards Foundation http://www.xmpp.org/xsf/people/stpeter.shtml --------------ms070605060403070908000208 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIYVDCC B3AwggbZoAMCAQICAQkwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgbAxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMQ8wDQYDVQQI EwZJc3JhZWwxDjAMBgNVBAcTBUVpbGF0MRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMRowGAYD VQQLExFDQSBBdXRob3JpdHkgRGVwLjEpMCcGA1UEAxMgRnJlZSBTU0wgQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlv biBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEmFkbWluQHN0YXJ0Y29tLm9yZzAeFw0wNTA0 MDUxNDUxMDNaFw0xMDA0MDQxNDUxMDNaMIGvMQswCQYDVQQGEwJJTDEPMA0GA1UECBMGSXNy YWVsMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSMwIQYDVQQLExpTZWN1cmUgQ2VydGlmaWNh 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg --===============1529955411==-- From morg-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 03 20:54:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hjm4D-0007DQ-HM; Thu, 03 May 2007 20:54:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hjm4C-0007DJ-1H for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 20:54:36 -0400 Received: from [64.118.83.132] (helo=mx1.asnetinc.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hjm4B-000506-OQ for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 20:54:36 -0400 Received: (qmail 16728 invoked by uid 1006); 4 May 2007 00:54:35 -0000 Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 00:54:35 +0000 From: Dave To: morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] Re: Welcome to the "MORG" mailing list Message-ID: <20070504005435.GB14523@s1.asnetinc.net> Mail-Followup-To: morg@ietf.org References: <20070502205412.GZ14523@s1.asnetinc.net> <23594.1178194443.693674@invsysm1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <23594.1178194443.693674@invsysm1> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.14 (2007-02-28) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d2e37451f7f22841e3b6f40c67db0f X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 01:14:03PM +0100, Dave Cridland wrote: > On Wed May 2 21:54:12 2007, Dave wrote: Executive Summary: Unfortunately, a legal claim made by the RP is unenforceable, if for no other reason than the fact that I never agreed to it. (Exercising my Constitutional right to free speech doesn't count as "explicit agreement" to anything other than exactly what I say, contrary to your claim below. In just the same way, if I made a "Note Well" that by speaking within earshot of me you "explicitely agree" to forfeit your IP interests in anything I hear, I'd be making an equally incorrect statement that'd be equally unenforceable (unless you actually agreed to it, of course, in which case it'd be an unwritten contract - which is clearly not the case here).) > >I'm not prepared to locate and read all the documents mentioned > >above > >(especially since some don't even have their identity - much less > >location - spelled out) before participating in this list. > > As list administrator, I'd just like to make things very clear on > this point. > > The Note Well text - which is stock text that's presented in > sessions, on the website, and on subscription to a mailing list - is > very clear in what it says. This isn't the right place to discuss it. Correct, that's why I preferred to get in touch with the RP of the list instead of posting to the list itself. I'm forced to respond on-list because it has been brought to my attention that certain legal claims made by you on the list are incorrect, and cause me grievence by possibly attempting to incite others to rob me of certain interests in IP in which I lawfully hold certain interests. > If you don't want to read the RFCs it cites, DO NOT POST. > > If you read them, but don't understand them, DO NOT POST. > > If you read them, but do not agree, DO NOT POST. That's your prerogative as the list administrator. The only problem is that I may need to make this post in order to explicitely establish my disagreement to the verbal contract presented to me when I joined, and to warn people against attempting to unlawfully circumvent my lawfully acquired IP rights (i.e., to break the law) in reliance on your errant legal advice. > You may need to seek legal advice, or your employer's permission, in > order to submit to the rules. That's true before signing any contract. (Just so we're absolutely clear, I never signed (verbally nor otherwise) any contract with this list nor with any of its representatives.) What makes this contract different is the fact that it references certain policy documents without giving proper reference (in fact, without even giving clear guidance on how to identify and/or obtain said documents). Signing open-ended contracts is quite dangerous, since if the IETF wants a million dollars from you tomorrow, all it needs to do is create a "Best Current Practices RFC" or "IESG Statement" signing a million dollars of yours over to the IETF, and then sue you for breach of contract when you refuse to pay. > This is an IETF Mailing List, and any post you make to it - including > Dave's I quote here - can be taken as an explicit agreement to the > rules, which aren't particularly onerous, and don't just affect > copyright, but IPR and Trademarks, too. Note well: If you rely on the incorrect legal advice quoted above, you may get sued. (Infringing on somebody's lawfully acquired intellectual property rights is not only illegal, but it can also be serious business; don't say I didn't warn you.) > which aren't particularly onerous Again, since the terms of the contract aren't spelled out (or even directly referenced, for that matter), I'd be stupid to take your word that they "aren't particularly onerous" in your (subjective) opinion. > As for other process documents which might affect us as we work, I'll > do my best to draw people's attention to these as and when they > impact us - I've been trying to pull in people outside the usual IETF > suspects, so we've hopefully got some new IETF participants here not > well-versed in the IETF's ways. It's very nice of you to agree to a best-effort attempt at "drawing attention" to terms that were unnamed in the verbal contract that a bunch of people apparently signed. I'd be scared to sign a contract that didn't even name all of its own terms, though, so don't expect me to post here again, except as necessary in my judgement to safeguard remedies available to me by applicable law (for example, to prove that I haven't abandoned certain interests in my lawfully acquired IP). > In the meantime, since those who disagree with the Note Well can't > post without explicitly agreeing to it, An explicit agreement to a contract requires a proactive response for the primary purpose of expressing agreement to said contract. It's ridiculous to argue that anybody here explicitely agreed to the "Note Well" you mentioned. You may want to argue that I implicitely agreed by posting, but my explicit disagreement is verifiable proof to the contrary. > I'm assuming this topic will > be naturally dropped. :-) I'm assuming it will, too. People who don't appreciate IP thuggery will naturally take their IP elsewhere. - Dave _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg From morg-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 04 13:30:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hk1bb-0007m7-PK; Fri, 04 May 2007 13:30:07 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hk1ba-0007lJ-Js for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 04 May 2007 13:30:06 -0400 Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hk1bZ-00021H-B8 for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 04 May 2007 13:30:06 -0400 Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 4 May 2007 18:30:04 +0100 Message-ID: <463B6D5F.5040708@isode.com> Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 18:29:04 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Cridland Subject: Re: [MORG] Plan of Action References: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> In-Reply-To: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org Dave Cridland wrote: > Meanwhile, we're also going to look at what features we have on the > store - the IMAP server - that we can leverage for this. There's a > number of RFCs and Drafts in the area of searching, organization, etc, > and we'll need to ensure we're all aware of the current state of play. > So, IMAP specialists need to start to enumerate these - any volunteers? I will do that. _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg From morg-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 10 10:25:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hm9aB-0007Na-6I; Thu, 10 May 2007 10:25:27 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hm9a9-0007Ky-Ta for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 10:25:25 -0400 Received: from [2001:838:378:0:2a0:d2ff:fe1b:110f] (helo=turner.dave.cridland.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hm9a7-0000dj-R8 for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 10:25:25 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84D3498005; Thu, 10 May 2007 15:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (turner.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18067-06; Thu, 10 May 2007 15:25:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:838:378:0:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37330498003; Thu, 10 May 2007 15:25:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: [MORG] Plan of Action References: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> <1178202999.6858.48.camel@schtrumpf> In-Reply-To: <1178202999.6858.48.camel@schtrumpf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <30549.1178807120.200312@peirce.dave.cridland.net> Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:25:20 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Philip Van Hoof Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at turner.dave.cridland.net X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: cf3becbbd6d1a45acbe2ffd4ab88bdc2 Cc: Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org (So I meant to reply to this in less than a week). On Thu May 3 15:36:38 2007, Philip Van Hoof wrote: > On Thu, 2007-05-03 at 14:19 +0100, Dave Cridland wrote: > > > This list has been created to look carefully at how existing mail > > clients search through, sort, and generally organize email. We're > > also going to - hopefully - have client developers talk about > what > they'd like to be able to do. > One thing that might be important with searching is to have IDLE > integrated with it. I'm hoping to see NOTIFY and CONTEXT become > adopted > for this. > > Yes, CONTEXT should give dynamic, "push-updated" searches, and NOTIFY can be used to explicitly allow these to be sent without a command in progress - not that CONTEXT requires use of IDLE at all. I'm regarding this much as an essentially solved problem, and CONTEXT was designed to handle the SORT case too - this was just stripped out of the document, but the syntax is all there. The remaining item in this area is dynamically updating THREAD results, which is rather more tricky. The whole other area is in considering whether we need new search keys and sort criteria. > Second to have a search that spans more than one folder, and having > an > IDLE that works on that too. > > Right - I think Alexey Melnikov has a multi-mailbox search draft somewhere? Ah-ha: http://www.tools.ietf.org/html/draft-melnikov-imapext-multimailbox-search-01 > Third a lot people don't really ask for folders, they ask for > virtual > folders based on tags that they'll mark their messages with. So A > search > that can efficiently work with this tagging. You could see a tag as > the > equivalent of a folder, only that a message can have n tags in > stead of > only one folder. Chris Newman suggested something similar in a private mail discussing the formation of this list - get rid of mailboxes entirely - or at least only have one - and have the client instead select messages via keywords. So you're not alone, and in good company too. IMAP has, of course, had "tagging" long before it became popular, as the user-defined keyword functionality. Another of Alexey's drafts proposes some new keywords: http://www.melnikov.ca/mel/Drafts/draft-melnikov-imap-keywords-03.txt We also have ANNOTATE, which allows arbitrary labelled metadata to be attached to messages - you can consider this the "next step" beyond tagging, but it's seen little uptake as yet - it's still draft, and it'll be Experimental rather than Standards Track. Arnt Gulbrandsen has VFOLDER which can be used to explicitly represent search results as an IMAP mailbox, too, which'd be useful to handle legacy clients, although it works best (IMO) with rarely changing search results. However, even given this support, and the legacy support offered by VFOLDER, I'd still have to argue against. I suspect that the major problem with the "folder-less" mail store is that it would become quite complex when considering what are currently shared mailboxes, and extremely painful when we try to deal with ACLs (which are essentially forced to be per-message). Currently, IMAP ACLs are per-mailbox, which is nicely broad - making them per-message would mean dramatically harder resynchronization, especially with QRESYNC. For example, since a message which has its ACL changed has to be seen to have been EXPUNGEd, when trying to decide which messages have been EXPUNGEd, you need to figure out whether any messages not visible to the user were previously visible to the user, and if so, when. That's sufficiently painful that I essentially side-stepped the corresponding issue in my ACAP server (to do with per-entry ACLs and DELETEDSINCE) - it's almost insoluble. In general, for efficiency reasons, ACLs should apply on a per-synchronization scope, which in turn implies there's still a use for mailboxes. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html From morg-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 11 04:47:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmQmq-0001Y3-Kv; Fri, 11 May 2007 04:47:40 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmQmq-0001Xv-4B for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 04:47:40 -0400 Received: from kalyani.oryx.com ([195.30.37.30]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmQmo-0003mZ-Nk for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 04:47:40 -0400 Received: from libertango.oryx.com (libertango.oryx.com [195.30.37.9]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D4E4AC22; Fri, 11 May 2007 10:47:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:52:34 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: Dave Cridland Subject: Re: [MORG] Plan of Action References: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> <1178202999.6858.48.camel@schtrumpf> <30549.1178807120.200312@peirce.dave.cridland.net> In-Reply-To: <30549.1178807120.200312@peirce.dave.cridland.net> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org Dave Cridland writes: > Arnt Gulbrandsen has VFOLDER which can be used to explicitly represent > search results as an IMAP mailbox, too, which'd be useful to handle > legacy clients, although it works best (IMO) with rarely changing > search results. Actually, I'm dropping VFOLDER as an IMAP extension. I keep the code, but don't bother with an IMAP extension document. (The searches can then be accessed but not manipulated by IMAP clients, which is okay IMO.) Arnt _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html From morg-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 11 16:03:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmbL0-0005O4-Ld; Fri, 11 May 2007 16:03:38 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmbKy-0005Mx-Rd for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 16:03:36 -0400 Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmbKx-0006GO-FF for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 16:03:36 -0400 Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 11 May 2007 21:03:34 +0100 Message-ID: <4644CBD7.7070906@isode.com> Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 21:02:31 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Cridland Subject: Re: [MORG] Plan of Action References: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> <463B6D5F.5040708@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <463B6D5F.5040708@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Dave Cridland wrote: > >> Meanwhile, we're also going to look at what features we have on the >> store - the IMAP server - that we can leverage for this. There's a >> number of RFCs and Drafts in the area of searching, organization, >> etc, and we'll need to ensure we're all aware of the current state of >> play. So, IMAP specialists need to start to enumerate these - any >> volunteers? > > I will do that. Ok, here is a draft list: New search criteria: draft-gulbrandsen-imap-inthread-01.txt draft-ietf-lemonade-search-within-04.txt Views/virtual mailboxes: draft-cridland-imap-context-01.txt draft-ietf-lemonade-vfolder-01.txt (expired) Per-message/per-mailbox attributes (annotations): draft-ietf-imapext-annotate-16.txt draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-11.txt Searches accross multiple mailboxes: draft-melnikov-imapext-multimailbox-search-01.txt (expired) Sorting and threading: draft-ietf-imapext-sort-18.txt _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html From morg-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 11 16:59:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmcCm-0005ZY-65; Fri, 11 May 2007 16:59:12 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmcCl-0005ZT-Eq for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 16:59:11 -0400 Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmcCk-0000cy-1x for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 16:59:11 -0400 Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 11 May 2007 21:59:07 +0100 Message-ID: <4644D8DC.8030303@isode.com> Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 21:58:04 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Cridland Subject: Re: [MORG] Plan of Action References: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> <463B6D5F.5040708@isode.com> <4644CBD7.7070906@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4644CBD7.7070906@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >> Dave Cridland wrote: >> >>> Meanwhile, we're also going to look at what features we have on the >>> store - the IMAP server - that we can leverage for this. There's a >>> number of RFCs and Drafts in the area of searching, organization, >>> etc, and we'll need to ensure we're all aware of the current state >>> of play. So, IMAP specialists need to start to enumerate these - any >>> volunteers? >> >> I will do that. > > Ok, here is a draft list: > > New search criteria: > draft-gulbrandsen-imap-inthread-01.txt > draft-ietf-lemonade-search-within-04.txt > > Views/virtual mailboxes: > draft-cridland-imap-context-01.txt > draft-ietf-lemonade-vfolder-01.txt (expired) > > Per-message/per-mailbox attributes (annotations): > draft-ietf-imapext-annotate-16.txt > draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-11.txt And also: draft-melnikov-imapext-filters-00.txt (expired) - used to store search criteria as server annotations. > Searches accross multiple mailboxes: > draft-melnikov-imapext-multimailbox-search-01.txt (expired) > > Sorting and threading: > draft-ietf-imapext-sort-18.txt _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html From morg-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 11 21:38:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmgYi-0000EA-H8; Fri, 11 May 2007 21:38:08 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmgYg-0000E5-Sj for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 21:38:07 -0400 Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.249]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmgYe-0002Gj-JN for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 21:38:06 -0400 Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4C1c4tA018232 for ; Fri, 11 May 2007 18:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JHW00501N2JRZ00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Anil.Srivastava@Sun.COM) for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2007 18:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 12-46-55-210.seatac.seattwa.wayport.net ([129.150.16.96]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JHW0032NN7DW2E9@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 11 May 2007 18:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 18:37:59 -0700 From: Anil SRIVASTAVA Subject: Re: [MORG] Plan of Action In-reply-to: <4644CBD7.7070906@isode.com> To: Alexey Melnikov Message-id: <46451A77.3030801@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc (http://www.sun.com) MIME-version: 1.0 References: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> <463B6D5F.5040708@isode.com> <4644CBD7.7070906@isode.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Macintosh/20070326) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2086112c730e13d5955355df27e3074b Cc: Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1007053651==" Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org --===============1007053651== Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=------------ms080609080608080600050601; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature" --------------ms080609080608080600050601 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >> Dave Cridland wrote: >> >>> Meanwhile, we're also going to look at what features we have on the >>> store - the IMAP server - that we can leverage for this. There's a >>> number of RFCs and Drafts in the area of searching, organization, >>> etc, and we'll need to ensure we're all aware of the current state of >>> play. So, IMAP specialists need to start to enumerate these - any >>> volunteers? >> >> I will do that. > > Ok, here is a draft list: > > New search criteria: > draft-gulbrandsen-imap-inthread-01.txt > draft-ietf-lemonade-search-within-04.txt > > Views/virtual mailboxes: > draft-cridland-imap-context-01.txt > draft-ietf-lemonade-vfolder-01.txt (expired) If Stephane and/or Arnt are not revising this, I can work on getting an updated draft out. > > Per-message/per-mailbox attributes (annotations): > draft-ietf-imapext-annotate-16.txt > draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-11.txt > > Searches accross multiple mailboxes: > draft-melnikov-imapext-multimailbox-search-01.txt (expired) > > Sorting and threading: > draft-ietf-imapext-sort-18.txt > > > _______________________________________________ > MORG mailing list > MORG@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg > Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html -- ______________ Anil SRIVASTAVA | anil.srivastava@Sun.COM | Sun Microsystems, Inc --------------ms080609080608080600050601 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html --===============1007053651==-- From morg-bounces@ietf.org Sat May 12 12:11:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmuBT-0004AJ-8n; Sat, 12 May 2007 12:11:03 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmuBR-0004AD-Tu for morg@ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 12:11:01 -0400 Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HmuBQ-0008FE-Gg for morg@ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 12:11:01 -0400 Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sat, 12 May 2007 17:10:59 +0100 Message-ID: <4645AFD6.2070107@isode.com> Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 13:15:18 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Cridland Subject: Re: [MORG] Plan of Action References: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> <463B6D5F.5040708@isode.com> <4644CBD7.7070906@isode.com> <4644D8DC.8030303@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4644D8DC.8030303@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Cc: Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >> Alexey Melnikov wrote: >> >>> Dave Cridland wrote: >>> >>>> Meanwhile, we're also going to look at what features we have on the >>>> store - the IMAP server - that we can leverage for this. There's a >>>> number of RFCs and Drafts in the area of searching, organization, >>>> etc, and we'll need to ensure we're all aware of the current state >>>> of play. So, IMAP specialists need to start to enumerate these - >>>> any volunteers? >>> >>> >>> I will do that. >> >> >> Ok, here is a draft list: >> >> New search criteria: >> draft-gulbrandsen-imap-inthread-01.txt >> draft-ietf-lemonade-search-within-04.txt >> >> Views/virtual mailboxes: >> draft-cridland-imap-context-01.txt >> draft-ietf-lemonade-vfolder-01.txt (expired) >> >> Per-message/per-mailbox attributes (annotations): >> draft-ietf-imapext-annotate-16.txt >> draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-11.txt > > And also: > draft-melnikov-imapext-filters-00.txt (expired) - used to store search > criteria as server annotations. > >> Searches accross multiple mailboxes: >> draft-melnikov-imapext-multimailbox-search-01.txt (expired) >> >> Sorting and threading: >> draft-ietf-imapext-sort-18.txt > This might be relevant as well: draft-neystadt-imap-status-counters (expired) - allows to get separate unseen/total counters per different message types, such as fax, voice, video, text, etc. _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html From morg-bounces@ietf.org Sat May 12 12:59:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hmuw0-0001wm-Bb; Sat, 12 May 2007 12:59:08 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hmuvy-0001wc-Ot for morg@ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 12:59:06 -0400 Received: from kalyani.oryx.com ([195.30.37.30]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hmuvx-00037u-Ct for morg@ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2007 12:59:06 -0400 Received: from libertango.oryx.com (libertango.oryx.com [195.30.37.9]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062DB4AC44 for ; Sat, 12 May 2007 18:59:04 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 19:04:29 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: Anil SRIVASTAVA Subject: Re: [MORG] Plan of Action References: <23594.1178198352.259614@invsysm1> <463B6D5F.5040708@isode.com> <4644CBD7.7070906@isode.com> <46451A77.3030801@Sun.COM> In-Reply-To: <46451A77.3030801@Sun.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Cc: Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org Anil SRIVASTAVA writes: > If Stephane and/or Arnt are not revising this, I can work on getting > an updated draft out. Feel free. Arnt _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html From morg-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 15:00:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnfmQ-0004ew-Pa; Mon, 14 May 2007 15:00:22 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnfmP-0004ef-C6; Mon, 14 May 2007 15:00:21 -0400 Received: from [2001:838:378:0:2a0:d2ff:fe1b:110f] (helo=turner.dave.cridland.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HnfmM-0006p2-FX; Mon, 14 May 2007 15:00:21 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69737498006; Mon, 14 May 2007 20:00:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (turner.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18017-02; Mon, 14 May 2007 20:00:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:838:378:0:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB6E498002; Mon, 14 May 2007 20:00:11 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <30512.1179169211.052893@peirce.dave.cridland.net> Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:00:11 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments , Messaging Organization Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at turner.dave.cridland.net X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Subject: [MORG] Context update X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org I've just submitted update to my IMAP CONTEXT draft. I've put it up at http://dave.cridland.net/draft-cridland-imap-context-02.txt until it's announced. The major change is that update contexts can now be explicitly freed, and there's a response code to allow servers to refuse to honour them. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html From morg-bounces@ietf.org Tue May 15 05:47:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hntcu-0008Bt-VW; Tue, 15 May 2007 05:47:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hntct-0008Bn-UE for morg@ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2007 05:47:27 -0400 Received: from [2001:838:378:0:2a0:d2ff:fe1b:110f] (helo=turner.dave.cridland.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hntco-0006NM-Pg for morg@ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2007 05:47:27 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA824498002 for ; Tue, 15 May 2007 10:47:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (turner.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24582-10 for ; Tue, 15 May 2007 10:47:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:838:378:0:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16DE498001 for ; Tue, 15 May 2007 10:47:04 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <6426.1179222425.573744@peirce.dave.cridland.net> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 10:47:05 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Messaging Organization Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="6426.1179222419.260401@peirce.dave.cridland.net" X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at turner.dave.cridland.net X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 789c141a303c09204b537a4078e2a63f Subject: [MORG] Fwd: Document Action: 'IMAP ANNOTATE Extension' to Experimental RFC X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org --6426.1179222419.260401@peirce.dave.cridland.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" For those not aware of the background, this is arbitrary metadata attached to messages. Put another way, it's user-defined properties on messages. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade --6426.1179222419.260401@peirce.dave.cridland.net Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: Document Action: 'IMAP ANNOTATE Extension' to Experimental RFC Return-Path: Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net (turner.dave.cridland.net [/var/run/lmtp]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Isode M-Box/14.0v1) with LMTP; Mon, 14 May 2007 22:40:08 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F888498002 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 22:40:08 +0100 (BST) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (turner.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18972-07 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 22:40:02 +0100 (BST) Received: from S76018.webhost1.cridland.net (s76018.webhost1.cridland.net [83.138.143.221]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BD6E498001 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 22:40:01 +0100 (BST) Received: by S76018.webhost1.cridland.net (Postfix, from userid 503) id B4B73738143; Mon, 14 May 2007 22:39:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (Balder-227.Proper.COM [192.245.12.227]) by S76018.webhost1.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A15DA738143 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 22:39:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4ELZ6LR041597 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 14 May 2007 14:35:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-imapext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id l4ELZ5Vn041596; Mon, 14 May 2007 14:35:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-imapext@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-imapext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.neustar.com (ns4.neustar.com [156.154.24.139]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l4ELZ44s041590 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 14:35:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ietf@ietf.org) Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4F52AC8B; Mon, 14 May 2007 21:35:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HniC7-0001wR-Q2; Mon, 14 May 2007 17:35:03 -0400 X-test-idtracker: no From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Cc: Internet Architecture Board , RFC Editor , imapext mailing list , imapext chair Subject: Document Action: 'IMAP ANNOTATE Extension' to Experimental RFC Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:35:03 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-imapext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at turner.dave.cridland.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: inline The IESG has approved the following document: - 'IMAP ANNOTATE Extension ' as an Experimental RFC This document is the product of the Internet Message Access Protocol Extension Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Lisa Dusseault and Chris Newman. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-imapext-annotate-16.txt Technical Summary The ANNOTATE extension to the Internet Message Access Protocol permits clients and servers to maintain "meta data" for messages, or individual message parts, stored in a mailbox on the server. For example, this can be used to attach comments and other useful information to a message. It is also possible to attach annotations to specific parts of a message, so that, for example, they could be marked as seen or important, or a comment added. Working Group Summary The IMAPEXT WG did a lot of good and careful work on this document. Very responsibly, the WG considered at the end whether this was actually going to be implemented. Although several client developers indicated a strong need for annotation functionality, few server developers were willing to commit to implementation (and deployment might be even worse). Thus, the WG reluctantly concluded to publish this as Experimental, hoping that some implementation experience will lead to a better understanding of what it takes to convince server implementors to do this functionality, along with what it takes to implement it robustly and in a decently performant fashion. Protocol Quality The IMAPEXT WG did as much work for this document as would be expected for a Proposed Standard, including Last Calls and several individual reviews. Lisa Dusseault reviewed this document for the IESG. Note to RFC Editor Please add the following paragraph to the abstract. NEW: "Note that this document was the product of a WG which had good consensus on how to approach the problem. Nevertheless, the WG felt it did not have enough information on implementation and deployment hurdles to meet all the requirements of a Proposed Standard. The IETF solicits implementations and implementation reports in order to make further progress." Please add the following sub-section to section 7. NEW: 7.4 Capability registration This document registers "ANNOTATE-EXPERIMENT-1" as an IMAPEXT capability in http://www.iana.org/assignments/imap4-capabilities. --6426.1179222419.260401@peirce.dave.cridland.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html --6426.1179222419.260401@peirce.dave.cridland.net-- From morg-bounces@ietf.org Thu May 17 11:49:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoiDu-000109-Nw; Thu, 17 May 2007 11:49:02 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoiDt-0000zo-Ec; Thu, 17 May 2007 11:49:01 -0400 Received: from dovecot.org ([213.157.71.38]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HoiDr-0006bn-TS; Thu, 17 May 2007 11:49:01 -0400 Received: from [192.168.10.2] (82-203-162-146.dsl.gohome.fi [82.203.162.146]) by dovecot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F374F0C89; Thu, 17 May 2007 18:48:58 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Re: [MORG] Context update From: Timo Sirainen To: Dave Cridland In-Reply-To: <30512.1179169211.052893@peirce.dave.cridland.net> References: <30512.1179169211.052893@peirce.dave.cridland.net> Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 18:48:58 +0300 Message-Id: <1179416938.32181.856.camel@hurina> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a1852b4f554b02e7e4548cc7928acc1f Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments , Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1832160583==" Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org --===============1832160583== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-Cxgj+DZE95MEsL9pGgJZ" --=-Cxgj+DZE95MEsL9pGgJZ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 20:00 +0100, Dave Cridland wrote: > I've just submitted update to my IMAP CONTEXT draft. >=20 > I've put it up at=20 > http://dave.cridland.net/draft-cridland-imap-context-02.txt until=20 > it's announced. I'm planning on implementing virtual mailboxes to my server, but I think CONTEXT won't be integrated with that feature. CONTEXT seems like it's useful for temporary views of mailboxes, while actual virtual mailboxes are more permanent and often generated from multiple physical mailboxes. For example CONTEXT mentions virtual Trash, but people usually want the Trash to contain \Deleted messages from all the mailboxes, not just one. Also since CONTEXT requires that the mailbox is selected and so all the flag changes, expunges etc. are sent to clients, this doesn't really give server the possibility of optimizing the search views the same way as separate virtual mailboxes would. I could still implement CONTEXT, but I think saying virtual mailboxes could be implemented with it is a bit misleading. At least I was expecting CONTEXT to be quite different. I read the draft now for the first time without knowing anything about CONTEXT before that. Some comments: 3.1: "Such servers also accept three additional return options, and provide three new result data items, and no new responses." I've no idea what return options or result data items are at this point. After reading far enough down I finally figure out it's talking about ESEARCH. So mentioning [ESEARCH] already in the first sentence would be helpful. 3.2: "The return option CONTEXT SHOULD be used by a client to indicate that subsequent use of the criteria are likely." "the search criteria" would have helped me to understand this more easily. 3.3.2: The client MUST process (and the server MUST generate) ADDTO and REMOVEFROM return data items in order, including those within a single ESEARCH response. What order? 3.3.3: The ADDTO return data item MAY include several new results to be inserted - therefore it is imporant to note that the positions included in a single ADDTO return data item contain positions before the shifting due to other new results take place. I can't parse that sentence. I'm guessing it means that if there are multiple results the shifting needs to be done after processing the next result. Or exactly the opposite. If the position is non-zero, the new results in the update are to be What if it's zero? I don't think I understand this position thing at all since it can even be ignored by clients. Or is it related to SORT? 3.3.4: S: * ESEARCH (TAG "B01") UID REMOVEFROM 32768 C: B03 NOOP S: * EXPUNGE 23762 S: B03 OK Nothing done. "* 23762 EXPUNGE". And maybe a note that the REMOVEFROM MUST be sent before the EXPUNGE (at least with sequences). 3.3.5: The server MAY free any resource associated with a context so disabled. ? 3.4: Where a PARTIAL search return option references results which do not exist, by using a range which starts or ends higher than the COUNT of results, then the server returns those results which are in the set. This yields a PARTIAL return data item which has, as payload, the original range and a potentially missing set of results which may be shorter than the extent of the range. This paragraph is somewhat weird. It's not necessary to do COUNT for a partial SEARCH, so mentioning COUNT in there isn't probably right. And if the mailbox had changed since the COUNT was returned, the range does exist. Unless that's what the last sentence tries to say with "missing set of results"? Also the section doesn't mention anything about problems if the mailbox changes. So: C: A03 UID SEARCH RETURN (PARTIAL 1:500) UNDELETED UNKEYWORD $Junk .. C: A04 UID SEARCH RETURN (PARTIAL 501:1000) UNDELETED UNKEYWORD $Junk S: * 1 FETCH (FLAGS $Junk) .. Now this most likely means that the original 501th result was actually skipped, because the first message had $Junk keyword set and the partial result set got moved by one. Right? --=-Cxgj+DZE95MEsL9pGgJZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBGTHlqyUhSUUBViskRAlyiAKCGv3svs//rReQWZDBE39JLfcaAlACgok3c EtC1MmeIKbhsqLY9s8K7ebo= =K3jB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Cxgj+DZE95MEsL9pGgJZ-- --===============1832160583== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html --===============1832160583==-- From morg-bounces@ietf.org Fri May 18 09:24:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hp2RH-0005pl-6i; Fri, 18 May 2007 09:24:11 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hp2RF-0005kP-Pp; Fri, 18 May 2007 09:24:09 -0400 Received: from [2001:838:378:0:2a0:d2ff:fe1b:110f] (helo=turner.dave.cridland.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hp2RB-0004vO-DU; Fri, 18 May 2007 09:24:09 -0400 Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([217.155.137.61]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (submission) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 18 May 2007 14:24:02 +0100 Subject: Re: [MORG] Context update References: <30512.1179169211.052893@peirce.dave.cridland.net> <1179416938.32181.856.camel@hurina> In-Reply-To: <1179416938.32181.856.camel@hurina> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <5253.1179494641.466607@peirce.dave.cridland.net> Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 14:24:01 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Timo Sirainen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: a069a8e8835d39ce36e425c148267a7b Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments , Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org On Thu May 17 16:48:58 2007, Timo Sirainen wrote: > I'm planning on implementing virtual mailboxes to my server, but I > think > CONTEXT won't be integrated with that feature. CONTEXT seems like > it's > useful for temporary views of mailboxes, while actual virtual > mailboxes > are more permanent and often generated from multiple physical > mailboxes. > For example CONTEXT mentions virtual Trash, but people usually want > the > Trash to contain \Deleted messages from all the mailboxes, not just > one. > > Right, although it certainly helps with the non-trash view. The problem with modelling the output of what one might call a volatile search - one which matches on mutable properties of a message, such as the \Deleted flag - as a mailbox is that you'd be removing and reinserting messages from a mailbox rather a lot. > Also since CONTEXT requires that the mailbox is selected and so all > the > flag changes, expunges etc. are sent to clients, this doesn't really > give server the possibility of optimizing the search views the same > way > as separate virtual mailboxes would. > > Sure, but in practise, I'm not convinced this is actually an issue to be worried about - you're unlikely to see much in the way of flag changes and expunges in most cases. And if that is a problem for clients, they can use NOTIFY to prevent flag changes from being sent, at least. (They can also prevent expunges, although that's less suitable for many clients). > I could still implement CONTEXT, but I think saying virtual > mailboxes > could be implemented with it is a bit misleading. At least I was > expecting CONTEXT to be quite different. > > It allows for implementing simple views. In a lot of cases, that's all you need. It's certainly what I use most. > I read the draft now for the first time without knowing anything > about > CONTEXT before that. Some comments: > > 3.1: > > "Such servers also accept three additional return options, and > provide > three new result data items, and no new responses." > > I've no idea what return options or result data items are at this > point. > After reading far enough down I finally figure out it's talking > about > ESEARCH. So mentioning [ESEARCH] already in the first sentence > would be > helpful. > > Right. > 3.2: > > "The return option CONTEXT SHOULD be used by a client to indicate > that > subsequent use of the criteria are likely." > > "the search criteria" would have helped me to understand this more > easily. > > Okay. > 3.3.2: > > The client MUST process (and the server MUST generate) ADDTO and > REMOVEFROM return data items in order, including those within a > single ESEARCH response. > > What order? > > I'll change "order" to "the order they appear". > 3.3.3: > > The ADDTO return data item MAY include several new results to be > inserted - therefore it is imporant to note that the positions > included in a single ADDTO return data item contain positions > before > the shifting due to other new results take place. > > I can't parse that sentence. I'm guessing it means that if there are > multiple results the shifting needs to be done after processing the > next > result. Or exactly the opposite. > > Yes, that's confusing. :-) > If the position is non-zero, the new results in the update are > to be > > What if it's zero? I don't think I understand this position thing > at all > since it can even be ignored by clients. Or is it related to SORT? > > This is related to SORT, which is now going back into the document, so a lot of this will make more sense. SORT related ADDTOs cannot have a zero position. > 3.3.4: > > S: * ESEARCH (TAG "B01") UID REMOVEFROM 32768 > C: B03 NOOP > S: * EXPUNGE 23762 > S: B03 OK Nothing done. > > "* 23762 EXPUNGE". And maybe a note that the REMOVEFROM MUST be sent > before the EXPUNGE (at least with sequences). > > Very good point. I'd completely forgotten that. > 3.3.5: > > The server MAY free any resource associated with a context so > disabled. > > ? > > Servers aren't obliged to remove local state for a context that's freed, primarily because the client is still allowed to perform PARTIAL requests from it. Servers just aren't allowed to send updates anymore. > 3.4: > > Where a PARTIAL search return option references results which do > not > exist, by using a range which starts or ends higher than the > COUNT of > results, then the server returns those results which are in the > set. > This yields a PARTIAL return data item which has, as payload, the > original range and a potentially missing set of results which > may be > shorter than the extent of the range. > > This paragraph is somewhat weird. It's not necessary to do COUNT > for a > partial SEARCH, so mentioning COUNT in there isn't probably right. > And > if the mailbox had changed since the COUNT was returned, the range > does > exist. Unless that's what the last sentence tries to say with > "missing > set of results"? > > Yes, that's it. > Also the section doesn't mention anything about problems if the > mailbox > changes. So: > > C: A03 UID SEARCH RETURN (PARTIAL 1:500) UNDELETED UNKEYWORD $Junk > .. > C: A04 UID SEARCH RETURN (PARTIAL 501:1000) UNDELETED UNKEYWORD > $Junk > S: * 1 FETCH (FLAGS $Junk) > .. > > Now this most likely means that the original 501th result was > actually > skipped, because the first message had $Junk keyword set and the > partial > result set got moved by one. Right? > > Yes, it does - this is why clients almost certainly want to use PARTIAL in one of two ways: 1) For snapshot views of part of a SEARCH/SORT result. A typical use-case might be a webmail, where you don't have a particularly long-running connection. 2) With UPDATE - in which case you won't "miss" the result. The thing you don't want to be doing is trying to walk the result without UPDATE - you are indeed very likely to miss results as the mailbox changes. I should probably add something about this. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html From morg-bounces@ietf.org Sun May 20 13:02:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HponU-0004kx-6O; Sun, 20 May 2007 13:02:20 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HponR-0004kJ-Oh; Sun, 20 May 2007 13:02:17 -0400 Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HponQ-0000lC-CS; Sun, 20 May 2007 13:02:17 -0400 Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sun, 20 May 2007 18:02:12 +0100 Message-ID: <46503E2B.7050908@isode.com> Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:25:15 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Dave Cridland Subject: Re: [MORG] Context update References: <30512.1179169211.052893@peirce.dave.cridland.net> <1179416938.32181.856.camel@hurina> <5253.1179494641.466607@peirce.dave.cridland.net> In-Reply-To: <5253.1179494641.466607@peirce.dave.cridland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: diverse service enivronments , Enhancements, Messaging Organization X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org Dave Cridland wrote: >> 3.3.5: >> >> The server MAY free any resource associated with a context so >> disabled. >> >> ? > > Servers aren't obliged to remove local state for a context that's > freed, primarily because the client is still allowed to perform > PARTIAL requests from it. Servers just aren't allowed to send updates > anymore. What you say was not obvious to me when I've reviewed your draft. I suggest you clarify this in the next revision. _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html From morg-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 21 04:18:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hq35w-00056x-1U; Mon, 21 May 2007 04:18:20 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpCIV-0005wg-9V; Fri, 18 May 2007 19:55:47 -0400 Received: from laweleka.osafoundation.org ([204.152.186.98]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HpCIT-0007Po-Qf; Fri, 18 May 2007 19:55:47 -0400 Received: from localhost (laweleka.osafoundation.org [127.0.0.1]) by laweleka.osafoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE56D142207; Fri, 18 May 2007 16:55:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and clamav at osafoundation.org Received: from laweleka.osafoundation.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (laweleka.osafoundation.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WBxnCOVdyC8K; Fri, 18 May 2007 16:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [74.95.2.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by laweleka.osafoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46EF7142206; Fri, 18 May 2007 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) To: HTTP Working Group , Message Notifications interest group discussion list , morg@ietf.org, wax@ietf.org, Apps Discuss , HTTP authentication list Message-Id: From: Lisa Dusseault Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 16:55:36 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 21 May 2007 04:18:19 -0400 Cc: Subject: [MORG] BOF request deadline Monday X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2088976845==" Errors-To: morg-bounces@ietf.org --===============2088976845== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-8--638126391 --Apple-Mail-8--638126391 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I've noticed some confusion around the deadlines for requesting BOFs and checked the dates myself. The cutoff date for "preliminary BOF proposals" is May 21. Between May 21 and June 11 the IESG and IAB discuss those proposals (we have a call scheduled May 29), and by June 11 we have *our* cutoff for scheduling a BOF that we've decided to put on the schedule. So we're supposed to know *something* about proposed BOFs by Monday, and have more details filled in by May 29. Hope this reaches people in time, Lisa On Apr 25, 2007, at 10:10 PM, Mark wrote: > > See ; the hard > cutoff for scheduling a BoF is June 11. > --Apple-Mail-8--638126391 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

I've noticed some confusion = around the deadlines for requesting BOFs and checked the dates myself.=A0 = =A0The cutoff date for "preliminary BOF proposals"=A0 is May 21.=A0 = Between May 21 and June 11 the IESG and IAB discuss those proposals (we = have a call scheduled May 29), and by June 11 we have *our* cutoff for = scheduling a BOF that we've decided to put on the schedule.=A0 So we're = supposed to know *something* about proposed BOFs by Monday, and have = more details filled in by May 29.

Hope this reaches people in = time,
Lisa

On Apr 25, 2007, at 10:10 PM, = Mark wrote:

See <http://www.ietf= .org/meetings/69-cutoff_dates.html>; the hard cutoff for = scheduling a BoF is June 11.




= --Apple-Mail-8--638126391-- --===============2088976845== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ MORG mailing list MORG@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html --===============2088976845==--