From arnt@oryx.com Mon Mar 23 06:43:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E563A6856 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 06:43:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8RQ6Dy61pKIg for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 06:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A221A3A690E for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 06:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E894AC64; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:43:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1237815815-99745-99744/6/11 (2 recipients); Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:43:35 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:42:31 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: <2008935161.200261233856050600.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <1233856620.28283.403.camel@timo-desktop> <1233943141.28283.474.camel@timo-desktop> <38688D39B0236C065DB8D339@Uranus-009002042072.watson.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <38688D39B0236C065DB8D339@Uranus-009002042072.watson.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [MORG] sortdisplay X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:43:11 -0000 Barry Leiba writes: >>> This is *very* much *not* true of my mailbox and my client. Please, >>> let's not make these kinds of assumptions as we develop protocols. >> >> We don't really have a better option. > > The rest of your explanation isn't needed; you misunderstand me. > > We obviously have to pick a way to sort on "to" that makes sense. > That mechanism has to take into account whether there's one or > multiple "to" addresses. My point isn't that what we're settling on > it wrong. It's that as we design these protocol, we should not make > assumptions about how people use email, and, in particular, how > people address their email. Aren't use cases exactly such assumptions? I can think of a way to reach a better result than just taking the first address: Tie the choice of address on which to sort to the TO/FROM/... keys in the SORT command's search program. So SEARCH DISPLAYFROM UTF8 SUBJECT foo sorts by the first address in From, but SEARCH DISPLAYFROM UTF8 FROM foo sorts by the first address that matched the FROM search-key. Oooh oooh very neat, but IMO not worth the bother. IMO, sorting by the first To address is sufficient. We won't reach nirvana that way, but the defects are ones we've suffered for decades and they aren't on my top-10 list of omissions. Arnt From arnt@oryx.com Mon Mar 23 08:38:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E35D3A6B19 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:38:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tOw5H48NV5+8 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0553A690D for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699D54AC68; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:39:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1237822783-99745-99744/6/13 (2 recipients); Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:39:43 +0100 Message-Id: <2S1eXm8ATFrW8Vx8soUWUQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:38:39 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [MORG] Address search X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:38:56 -0000 Timo Sirainen writes: >> The following fourteen address fields MUST be supported: From, To, >> Cc, Bcc, Reply-To, Return-Path, Sender, Resent-Bcc, Resent-Cc, >> Resent-From, Resent-Sender and Resent-To. > > There's only 12.. Fourteen also mentioned later in document. The miscount goes back to the first version-controlled version. No idea which two fields I deleted or why. I changed it to twelve now. I'd like to know what the last two were, but I can't remember and it isn't in the SCM, so... >> All three search keys use either a client-specified list of address >> fields, or all supported fields. > > Is it actually useful to support searching all fields? People tell me they want that, but they mean all the fields they commonly use, typically From, To, Cc, Reply-To. If I then ask specifically about e.g. Resent-From, the typical answer is an uncertain yes-like sound. I take this to mean that the set is useful, and those four have to be in the set, but what else is there isn't all that important. >> 3.5. Client Fallbacks > .. >> Matching a localpart can be done either with "FROM .. >> Note that some widely-used servers process address fields as part of >> parsing, so that e.g. "From: " may be rewritten as >> "From: fred@example.com" or the other way around. Some of these >> fallback searches may yield different results on different servers. > > Right. So is it really even useful to suggest using "FROM X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB5E03A6C38 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:42:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26Aj2vflbPMO for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F243A3A68CC for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.129.20.248] (dhcp-14f8.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.20.248]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:43:01 +0000 Message-ID: <49C7ADF4.10404@isode.com> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:42:44 -0700 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Arnt Gulbrandsen References: <2008935161.200261233856050600.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <1233856620.28283.403.camel@timo-desktop> <1233943141.28283.474.camel@timo-desktop> <38688D39B0236C065DB8D339@Uranus-009002042072.watson.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] sortdisplay X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:42:13 -0000 Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Barry Leiba writes: > >>>> This is *very* much *not* true of my mailbox and my client. Please, >>>> let's not make these kinds of assumptions as we develop protocols. >>> >>> We don't really have a better option. >> >> The rest of your explanation isn't needed; you misunderstand me. >> >> We obviously have to pick a way to sort on "to" that makes sense. >> That mechanism has to take into account whether there's one or >> multiple "to" addresses. My point isn't that what we're settling on >> it wrong. It's that as we design these protocol, we should not make >> assumptions about how people use email, and, in particular, how >> people address their email. > > Aren't use cases exactly such assumptions? > > I can think of a way to reach a better result than just taking the > first address: Tie the choice of address on which to sort to the > TO/FROM/... keys in the SORT command's search program. So SEARCH > DISPLAYFROM UTF8 SUBJECT foo sorts by the first address in From, but > SEARCH DISPLAYFROM UTF8 FROM foo sorts by the first address that > matched the FROM search-key. Oooh oooh very neat, but IMO not worth > the bother. > > IMO, sorting by the first To address is sufficient. We won't reach > nirvana that way, but the defects are ones we've suffered for decades > and they aren't on my top-10 list of omissions. Speaking as an individual: I tend to agree that is the most tractable solution. From tss@iki.fi Tue Mar 24 14:58:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5819C3A67D8 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:58:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_65=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EH4yDUFagn2s for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dovecot.org (dovecot.org [82.118.211.50]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190E23A6989 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.4.192.51] (unknown [74.205.24.229]) by dovecot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D633164722C for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 23:58:56 +0200 (EET) From: Timo Sirainen To: morg@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-VDdiS02d1WjuGAg5a/9h" Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:58:54 -0400 Message-Id: <1237931934.24642.498.camel@timo-desktop> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.3 Subject: [MORG] fuzzy search X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:58:13 -0000 --=-VDdiS02d1WjuGAg5a/9h Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-N2G59rI6nGdeRGoR38vl" --=-N2G59rI6nGdeRGoR38vl Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was hoping that we could talk about fuzzy search on Friday, even though the draft wasn't submitted on time. Because initial drafts can't currently be uploaded, I'm attaching it to this mail. Hopefully enough people have had time to read it by Friday. Should be a pretty quick read. :) --=-N2G59rI6nGdeRGoR38vl Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-morg-fuzzy-search-00.txt" Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-ietf-morg-fuzzy-search-00.txt"; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCg0KSU1BUEVYVCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgIFQuIFNpcmFpbmVuDQpJbnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgTWFyY2ggMjQsIDIwMDkNCkludGVuZGVkIHN0YXR1czog U3RhbmRhcmRzIFRyYWNrDQpFeHBpcmVzOiBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMjUsIDIwMDkNCg0KDQogICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgIElNQVA0IEV4dGVuc2lvbiBmb3IgRnV6enkgU2VhcmNoDQogICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1tb3JnLWZ1enp5LXNlYXJjaA0KDQpTdGF0dXMgb2YgdGhp cyBNZW1vDQoNCiAgIFRoaXMgSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnQgaXMgc3VibWl0dGVkIHRvIElFVEYgaW4g ZnVsbCBjb25mb3JtYW5jZSB3aXRoIHRoZQ0KICAgcHJvdmlzaW9ucyBvZiBCQ1AgNzggYW5kIEJD UCA3OS4NCg0KICAgSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnRzIGFyZSB3b3JraW5nIGRvY3VtZW50cyBvZiB0aGUg SW50ZXJuZXQgRW5naW5lZXJpbmcNCiAgIFRhc2sgRm9yY2UgKElFVEYpLCBpdHMgYXJlYXMsIGFu ZCBpdHMgd29ya2luZyBncm91cHMuICBOb3RlIHRoYXQNCiAgIG90aGVyIGdyb3VwcyBtYXkgYWxz byBkaXN0cmlidXRlIHdvcmtpbmcgZG9jdW1lbnRzIGFzIEludGVybmV0LQ0KICAgRHJhZnRzLg0K DQogICBJbnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdHMgYXJlIGRyYWZ0IGRvY3VtZW50cyB2YWxpZCBmb3IgYSBtYXhp bXVtIG9mIHNpeCBtb250aHMNCiAgIGFuZCBtYXkgYmUgdXBkYXRlZCwgcmVwbGFjZWQsIG9yIG9i c29sZXRlZCBieSBvdGhlciBkb2N1bWVudHMgYXQgYW55DQogICB0aW1lLiAgSXQgaXMgaW5hcHBy b3ByaWF0ZSB0byB1c2UgSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnRzIGFzIHJlZmVyZW5jZQ0KICAgbWF0ZXJpYWwg b3IgdG8gY2l0ZSB0aGVtIG90aGVyIHRoYW4gYXMgIndvcmsgaW4gcHJvZ3Jlc3MuIg0KDQogICBU aGUgbGlzdCBvZiBjdXJyZW50IEludGVybmV0LURyYWZ0cyBjYW4gYmUgYWNjZXNzZWQgYXQNCiAg IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaWV0Zi8xaWQtYWJzdHJhY3RzLnR4dC4NCg0KICAgVGhlIGxp c3Qgb2YgSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnQgU2hhZG93IERpcmVjdG9yaWVzIGNhbiBiZSBhY2Nlc3NlZCBh dA0KICAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9zaGFkb3cuaHRtbC4NCg0KICAgVGhpcyBJbnRlcm5l dC1EcmFmdCB3aWxsIGV4cGlyZSBvbiBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMjUsIDIwMDkuDQoNCkNvcHlyaWdodCBO b3RpY2UNCg0KICAgQ29weXJpZ2h0IChjKSAyMDA5IElFVEYgVHJ1c3QgYW5kIHRoZSBwZXJzb25z IGlkZW50aWZpZWQgYXMgdGhlDQogICBkb2N1bWVudCBhdXRob3JzLiAgQWxsIHJpZ2h0cyByZXNl cnZlZC4NCg0KICAgVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBpcyBzdWJqZWN0IHRvIEJDUCA3OCBhbmQgdGhlIElF VEYgVHJ1c3QncyBMZWdhbA0KICAgUHJvdmlzaW9ucyBSZWxhdGluZyB0byBJRVRGIERvY3VtZW50 cyBpbiBlZmZlY3Qgb24gdGhlIGRhdGUgb2YNCiAgIHB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIG9mIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1l bnQgKGh0dHA6Ly90cnVzdGVlLmlldGYub3JnL2xpY2Vuc2UtaW5mbykuDQogICBQbGVhc2UgcmV2 aWV3IHRoZXNlIGRvY3VtZW50cyBjYXJlZnVsbHksIGFzIHRoZXkgZGVzY3JpYmUgeW91ciByaWdo dHMNCiAgIGFuZCByZXN0cmljdGlvbnMgd2l0aCByZXNwZWN0IHRvIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQuDQoN CkFic3RyYWN0DQoNCiAgIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgZGVzY3JpYmVzIGFuIElNQVAgcHJvdG9jb2wg ZXh0ZW5zaW9uIGVuYWJsaW5nIHNlcnZlciB0bw0KICAgcGVyZm9ybSBzZWFyY2hlcyB3aXRoIGlu ZXhhY3Qgc3RyaW5nIG1hdGNoaW5nIGFuZCBhc3NpZ25pbmcgcmVsZXZhbmN5DQogICBzY29yZXMg Zm9yIG1hdGNoZWQgbWVzc2FnZXMuDQoNCg0KDQpTaXJhaW5lbiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIEV4cGly ZXMgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDI1LCAyMDA5ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgW1BhZ2UgMV0NCgwNCkludGVybmV0 LURyYWZ0ICAgICAgICAgICAgIElNQVA0IEZVWlpZIFNFQVJDSCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgTWFy Y2ggMjAwOQ0KDQoNCk5vdGUNCg0KICAgQSByZXZpc2VkIHZlcnNpb24gb2YgdGhpcyBkcmFmdCBk b2N1bWVudCB3aWxsIGJlIHN1Ym1pdHRlZCB0byB0aGUgUkZDDQogICBlZGl0b3IgYXMgYSBQcm9w b3NlZCBTdGFuZGFyZCBmb3IgdGhlIEludGVybmV0IENvbW11bml0eS4gIERpc2N1c3Npb24NCiAg IGFuZCBzdWdnZXN0aW9ucyBmb3IgaW1wcm92ZW1lbnQgYXJlIHJlcXVlc3RlZCwgYW5kIHNob3Vs ZCBiZSBzZW50IHRvDQogICBtb3JnQGlldGYub3JnLg0KDQoNCjEuICBDb252ZW50aW9ucyB1c2Vk IGluIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQNCg0KICAgSW4gZXhhbXBsZXMsICJDOiIgaW5kaWNhdGVzIGxpbmVz IHNlbnQgYnkgYSBjbGllbnQgdGhhdCBpcyBjb25uZWN0ZWQNCiAgIHRvIGEgc2VydmVyLiAgIlM6 IiBpbmRpY2F0ZXMgbGluZXMgc2VudCBieSB0aGUgc2VydmVyIHRvIHRoZSBjbGllbnQuDQoNCiAg IFRoZSBrZXkgd29yZHMgIk1VU1QiLCAiTVVTVCBOT1QiLCAiUkVRVUlSRUQiLCAiU0hBTEwiLCAi U0hBTEwgTk9UIiwNCiAgICJTSE9VTEQiLCAiU0hPVUxEIE5PVCIsICJSRUNPTU1FTkRFRCIsICJN QVkiLCBhbmQgIk9QVElPTkFMIiBpbiB0aGlzDQogICBkb2N1bWVudCBhcmUgdG8gYmUgaW50ZXJw cmV0ZWQgYXMgZGVzY3JpYmVkIGluIFJGQyAyMTE5IFtLd2RzXS4NCg0KDQoyLiAgSW50cm9kdWN0 aW9uDQoNCiAgIFdoZW4gaHVtYW5zIHBlcmZvcm0gc2VhcmNoZXMgaW4gSU1BUCBjbGllbnRzLCB0 aGV5IHR5cGljYWxseSB3YW50IHRvDQogICBzZWUgdGhlIG1vc3QgcmVsZXZhbnQgc2VhcmNoIHJl c3VsdHMgZmlyc3QuICBJTUFQIHNlcnZlcnMgYXJlIGFibGUgdG8NCiAgIGRvIHRoaXMgaW4gdGhl IG1vc3QgZWZmaWNpZW50IHdheSB3aGVuIHRoZXkncmUgZnJlZSB0byBpbnRlcm5hbGx5DQogICBk ZWNpZGUgaG93IHNlYXJjaGVzIHNob3VsZCBtYXRjaCBtZXNzYWdlcy4gIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQg ZGVzY3JpYmVzIGENCiAgIG5ldyBTRUFSQ0g9RlVaWlkgZXh0ZW5zaW9uIHRoYXQgcHJvdmlkZXMg c3VjaCBmdW5jdGlvbmFsaXR5Lg0KDQoNCjMuICBUaGUgRlVaWlkgU2VhcmNoIEtleQ0KDQogICBG VVpaWSBzZWFyY2gga2V5IHRha2VzIGFub3RoZXIgc2VhcmNoIGtleSBhcyBpdHMgYXJndW1lbnQu ICBGb3IgdGhpcw0KICAgc2VhcmNoIGtleSBzZXJ2ZXIgaXMgYWxsb3dlZCB0byBwZXJmb3JtIGFs bCBzdHJpbmcgbWF0Y2hpbmcgaW4gYW4NCiAgIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uLWRlZmluZWQgbWFubmVy IGluc3RlYWQgb2YgcGVyZm9ybWluZyBhIHN0cmljdA0KICAgc3Vic3RyaW5nIHNlYXJjaCBhcyBy ZXF1cmVkIGJ5IFtSRkMzNTAxXS4gIEl0IE1VU1QgTk9UIG1vZGlmeSB0aGUNCiAgIGJlaGF2aW9y IG9mIHNlYXJjaCBrZXlzIHRoYXQgZG9uJ3QgY29tcGFyZSBzdHJpbmdzLiAgRm9yIGV4YW1wbGU6 DQoNCiAgIEM6IEEwMSBTRUFSQ0ggRlVaWlkgKFNVQkpFQ1QgIkhlbG8gbW9tIiBTTUFMTEVSIDUw MDAgU0VFTikNCiAgIFM6ICogU0VBUkNIIDEgNSAxMA0KICAgUzogQTAxIE9LIFNlYXJjaCBjb21w bGV0ZWQuDQoNCiAgIEJlc2lkZXMgbWF0Y2hpbmcgbWVzc2FnZXMgd2l0aCBzdWJqZWN0ICJIZWxv IG1vbSIsIHRoZSBhYm92ZSBzZWFyY2gNCiAgIG1heSBhbHNvIG1hdGNoIG1lc3NhZ2VzIHdpdGgg c3ViamVjdHMgIkhlbGxvIG1vbSIsICJIZWxsbyBtb3RoZXIiLCBvcg0KICAgYW55dGhpbmcgZWxz ZSB0aGUgc2VydmVyIGRlY2lkZXMgdGhhdCBtaWdodCBiZSBhIGdvb2QgbWF0Y2guDQogICBIb3dl dmVyLCB0aGUgcmVzdWx0IE1VU1QgTk9UIGNvbnRhaW4gbWVzc2FnZXMgdGhhdCBkb24ndCBoYXZl IGEgXFNlZW4NCiAgIGZsYWcgc2V0IG9yIHdob3NlIHNpemUgaXMgNTAwMCBieXRlcyBvciBtb3Jl Lg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQpTaXJhaW5lbiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIEV4cGlyZXMgU2VwdGVtYmVy IDI1LCAyMDA5ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgW1BhZ2UgMl0NCgwNCkludGVybmV0LURyYWZ0ICAgICAg ICAgICAgIElNQVA0IEZVWlpZIFNFQVJDSCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgTWFyY2ggMjAwOQ0KDQoN CjQuICBSZWxldmFuY3kgU2NvcmVzIGZvciBTZWFyY2ggUmVzdWx0cw0KDQogICBUaGUgc2VydmVy IFNIT1VMRCBhc3NpZ24gYSBzZWFyY2ggcmVsZXZhbmN5IHNjb3JlIGZvciBlYWNoIG1hdGNoZWQN CiAgIG1lc3NhZ2Ugd2hlbiB0aGUgRlVaWlkgc2VhcmNoIGtleSBpcyBnaXZlbi4gIFRoaXMgYWxs b3dzIHRoZSBjbGllbnQNCiAgIHRvIHNob3cgdGhlIG1vc3QgcmVsZXZhbnQgc2VhcmNoIHJlc3Vs dHMgZmlyc3QuICBSZWxldmFuY3kgc2NvcmVzIGFyZQ0KICAgbWVhbmluZ2Z1bCBvbmx5IHdoZW4g Y29tcGFyZWQgdG8gb3RoZXIgcmVsZXZhbmN5IHNjb3JlcyBmcm9tIHRoZSBzYW1lDQogICBzZXJ2 ZXIuICBUaGlzIG1lYW5zIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uIGRvZXNuJ3QgZGVmaW5lIGEg ImJlc3QNCiAgIHJlbGV2YW5jeSIgc2NvcmUuICBJbnN0ZWFkIHRoZSB2YWx1ZXMgYXJlIHJlcHJl c2VudGVkIGJ5IGFuIDMyIGJpdA0KICAgaW50ZWdlciBhbmQgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zIGNhbiBk ZWNpZGUgaG93IGhpZ2ggdmFsdWVzIHRoZXkgd2FudCB0bw0KICAgdXNlLiAgRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUg c29tZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMgbWlnaHQgZGVjaWRlIHRvIHVzZSBvbmx5DQogICB2YWx1ZXMg MS01IHdoaWxlIG90aGVycyBtaWdodCBkZWNpZGUgdG8gdXNlIHRoZSBmdWxsIDMyIGJpdCByYW5n ZS4NCg0KICAgSWYgc2VydmVyIGFkdmVydGlzZXMgdGhlIEVTRUFSQ0ggY2FwYWJpbGl0eSBhcyBk ZWZpbmVkIGJ5IFtFU0VBUkNIXSwNCiAgIHRoZSByZWxldmFuY3kgc2NvcmVzIGNhbiBiZSByZXRy aWV2ZWQgdXNpbmcgdGhlIG5ldyBSRUxFVkFOQ1kgcmV0dXJuDQogICBvcHRpb24gZm9yIFNFQVJD SDoNCg0KICAgQzogQTAyIFNFQVJDSCBSRVRVUk4gKFJFTEVWQU5DWSBBTEwpIEZVWlpZIFRFWFQg IkhlbG8iDQogICBTOiAqIEVTRUFSQ0ggKFRBRyAiQTAyIikgQUxMIDEsNSwxMCBSRUxFVkFOQ1kg KDQgMTA3IDQyKQ0KICAgUzogQTAyIE9LIFNlYXJjaCBjb21wbGV0ZWQuDQoNCiAgIFJFTEVWQU5D WSByZXR1cm4gb3B0aW9uIFNIT1VMRCBOT1QgYmUgdXNlZCB1bmxlc3MgRlVaWlkgc2VhcmNoIGtl eSBpcw0KICAgYWxzbyBnaXZlbiwgb3RoZXJ3aXNlIHNlcnZlcnMgTUFZIGRlY2lkZSB0byBnaXZl IHRoZSBzYW1lIHJlbGV2YW5jeQ0KICAgc2NvcmUgdG8gYWxsIG1lc3NhZ2VzLg0KDQoNCjUuICBF eHRlbnNpb25zIHRvIFNPUlQNCg0KICAgSWYgc2VydmVyIGFkdmVydGlzZXMgdGhlIFNPUlQgY2Fw YWJpbGl0eSBhcyBkZWZpbmVkIGJ5IFtTT1JUXSwgdGhlDQogICByZXN1bHRzIGNhbiBiZSBzb3J0 ZWQgYnkgdGhlIG5ldyBSRUxFVkFOQ1kgc29ydCBjcml0ZXJpYToNCg0KICAgQzogQTAzIFNPUlQg KFJFTEVWQU5DWSkgVVRGLTggRlVaWlkgU1VCSkVDVCAiSGVsbyINCiAgIFM6ICogU09SVCA1IDEw IDENCiAgIFM6IEEwMyBPSyBTb3J0IGNvbXBsZXRlZC4NCg0KICAgVGhlIG1lc3NhZ2Ugd2l0aCB0 aGUgaGlnaGVzdCBzY29yZSBpcyByZXR1cm5lZCBmaXJzdC4gIEFzIHdpdGgNCiAgIFJFTEVWQU5D WSByZXR1cm4gb3B0aW9uLCBSRUxFVkFOQ1kgc29ydCBjcml0ZXJpYSBTSE9VTEQgTk9UIGJlIHVz ZWQNCiAgIHVubGVzcyBGVVpaWSBzZWFyY2gga2V5IGlzIGFsc28gZ2l2ZW4uDQoNCiAgIFtbYW5j aG9yNjogVE9ETzogRGVzY3JpYmUgYWxzbyBSRUxFVkFOQ1kgd2l0aCBFU09SVC5dXQ0KDQoNCjYu ICBGb3JtYWwgU3ludGF4DQoNCiAgIFRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgc3ludGF4IHNwZWNpZmljYXRpb24g dXNlcyB0aGUgYXVnbWVudGVkIEJhY2t1cy1OYXVyDQogICBGb3JtIChCTkYpIGFzIGRlc2NyaWJl ZCBpbiBbQUJORl0uICBJdCBpbmNsdWRlcyBkZWZpbml0aW9ucyBmcm9tDQogICBbUkZDMzUwMV0s IFtJTUFQLUFCTkZdIGFuZCBbU09SVF0uDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KU2lyYWluZW4gICAgICAgICAgICAg ICBFeHBpcmVzIFNlcHRlbWJlciAyNSwgMjAwOSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIFtQYWdlIDNdDQoMDQpJ bnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdCAgICAgICAgICAgICBJTUFQNCBGVVpaWSBTRUFSQ0ggICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgIE1hcmNoIDIwMDkNCg0KDQogICAgICAgY2FwYWJpbGl0eSAgICAgICAgID0vICJTRUFSQ0g9 RlVaWlkiDQoNCiAgICAgICBzY29yZSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgPSBudW1iZXINCiAgICAgICAgICA7 OyA8bnVtYmVyPiBmcm9tIFtSRkMzNTAxXQ0KDQogICAgICAgc2NvcmUtbGlzdCAgICAgICAgID0g IigiIFtzY29yZSAqKFNQIHNjb3JlKV0gIikiDQoNCiAgICAgICBzZWFyY2gta2V5ICAgICAgICAg PS8gIkZVWlpZIiBTUCBzZWFyY2gta2V5DQoNCiAgICAgICBzZWFyY2gtcmV0dXJuLWRhdGEgPS8g IlJFTEVWQU5DWSIgU1Agc2NvcmUtbGlzdA0KICAgICAgICAgIDs7IENvbmZvcm1zIHRvIDxzZWFy Y2gtcmV0dXJuLWRhdGE+LCBmcm9tIFtJTUFQLUFCTkZdDQoNCiAgICAgICBzZWFyY2gtcmV0dXJu LW9wdCAgPS8gIlJFTEVWQU5DWSINCiAgICAgICAgICA7OyBDb25mb3JtcyB0byA8c2VhcmNoLXJl dHVybi1vcHQ+LCBmcm9tIFtJTUFQLUFCTkZdDQoNCiAgICAgICBzb3J0LWtleSAgICAgICAgICAg PS8gIlJFTEVWQU5DWSINCg0KDQo3LiAgU2VjdXJpdHkgQ29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbnMNCg0KICAgVGhp cyBkb2N1bWVudCBpcyBiZWxpZXZlZCBub3QgdG8gaGF2ZSBhbnkgc2VjdXJpdHkgaW1wbGljYXRp b25zLg0KDQoNCjguICBJQU5BIENvbnNpZGVyYXRpb25zDQoNCiAgIElNQVA0IGNhcGFiaWxpdGll cyBhcmUgcmVnaXN0ZXJlZCBieSBwdWJsaXNoaW5nIGEgc3RhbmRhcmRzIHRyYWNrIG9yDQogICBJ RVNHIGFwcHJvdmVkIGV4cGVyaW1lbnRhbCBSRkMuICBUaGUgcmVnaXN0cnkgaXMgY3VycmVudGx5 IGxvY2F0ZWQNCiAgIGF0Og0KDQoNCiAgICAgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWFuYS5vcmcvYXNzaWdubWVu dHMvaW1hcDQtY2FwYWJpbGl0aWVzDQoNCg0KICAgVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBkZWZpbmVzIHRoZSBY LURSQUZULUkwMC1TRUFSQ0g9RlVaWlkgW1thbmNob3I3OiBOb3RlIHRvDQogICBSRkMgRWRpdG9y OiBmaXggYmVmb3JlIHB1YmxpY2F0aW9uXV0gSU1BUCBjYXBhYmlsaXR5LiAgSUFOQSBpcw0KICAg cmVxdWVzdGVkIHRvIGFkZCBpdCB0byB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkuDQoNCg0KOS4gIEFja25vd2xlZGdl bWVudHMNCg0KICAgQWxleGV5IE1lbG5pa292IGhhcyBoZWxwZWQgd2l0aCB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50 Lg0KDQoNCjEwLiAgTm9ybWF0aXZlIFJlZmVyZW5jZXMNCg0KICAgW0FCTkZdICAgICBDcm9ja2Vy LCBELiwgRWQuIGFuZCBQLiBPdmVyZWxsLCAiQXVnbWVudGVkIEJORiBmb3IgU3ludGF4DQogICAg ICAgICAgICAgIFNwZWNpZmljYXRpb25zOiBBQk5GIiwgUkZDIDUyMzQsIEphbnVhcnkgMjAwOC4N Cg0KDQoNCg0KU2lyYWluZW4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICBFeHBpcmVzIFNlcHRlbWJlciAyNSwgMjAw OSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIFtQYWdlIDRdDQoMDQpJbnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdCAgICAgICAgICAgICBJ TUFQNCBGVVpaWSBTRUFSQ0ggICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIE1hcmNoIDIwMDkNCg0KDQogICBbRVNF QVJDSF0gIE1lbG5pa292LCBBLiBhbmQgRC4gQ3JpZGxhbmQsICJJTUFQNCBFeHRlbnNpb24gdG8g U0VBUkNIDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgIENvbW1hbmQgZm9yIENvbnRyb2xsaW5nIFdoYXQgS2luZCBv ZiBJbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBJcw0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICBSZXR1cm5lZCIsIFJGQyA0NzMxLCBOb3Zl bWJlciAyMDA2Lg0KDQogICBbSU1BUC1BQk5GXQ0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICBNZWxuaWtvdiwgQS4g YW5kIEMuIERhYm9vLCAiQ29sbGVjdGVkIEV4dGVuc2lvbnMgdG8gSU1BUDQNCiAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgQUJORiIsIFJGQyA0NDY2LCBBcHJpbCAyMDA2Lg0KDQogICBbS3dkc10gICAgIEJyYWRuZXIs IFMuLCAiS2V5IHdvcmRzIGZvciB1c2UgaW4gUkZDcyB0byBJbmRpY2F0ZQ0KICAgICAgICAgICAg ICBSZXF1aXJlbWVudCBMZXZlbHMiLCBSRkMgMjExOSwgTWFyY2ggMTk5Ny4NCg0KICAgW1JGQzM1 MDFdICBDcmlzcGluLCBNLiwgIklOVEVSTkVUIE1FU1NBR0UgQUNDRVNTIFBST1RPQ09MIC0gVkVS U0lPTg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICA0cmV2MSIsIFJGQyAzNTAxLCBNYXJjaCAyMDAzLg0KDQogICBb U09SVF0gICAgIENyaXNwaW4sIE0uIGFuZCBLLiBNdXJjaGlzb24sICJJbnRlcm5ldCBNZXNzYWdl IEFjY2Vzcw0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICBQcm90b2NvbCAtIFNPUlQgYW5kIFRIUkVBRCBFeHRlbnNp b25zIiwgUkZDIDUyNTYsDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgIEp1bmUgMjAwOC4NCg0KDQpBdXRob3IncyBB ZGRyZXNzDQoNCiAgIFRpbW8gU2lyYWluZW4NCg0KICAgRW1haWw6IHRzc0Bpa2kuZmkNCg0KDQoN Cg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNClNpcmFpbmVu ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgRXhwaXJlcyBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMjUsIDIwMDkgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBb UGFnZSA1XQ0KDA0K --=-N2G59rI6nGdeRGoR38vl-- --=-VDdiS02d1WjuGAg5a/9h Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAknJV54ACgkQyUhSUUBVislNcACeLN8wrdZaezTG18DtqDK/Ezps b5oAoKNIiB4ZtrJowHGe/+PAWhAyHE+7 =WcwP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-VDdiS02d1WjuGAg5a/9h-- From Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Tue Mar 24 21:33:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CBC528C14D for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:33:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.539 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.539 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iq7MoN7eCZ-r for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0949428C149 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh105.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.211]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id n2P4XG0q001032; Wed, 25 Mar 2009 06:33:35 +0200 Received: from vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.160.244.30]) by esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 25 Mar 2009 06:33:25 +0200 Received: from smtp.mgd.nokia.com ([65.54.30.7]) by vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 25 Mar 2009 06:33:20 +0200 Received: from nok-am1mhub-06.mgdnok.nokia.com (65.54.30.10) by NOK-AM1MHUB-03.mgdnok.nokia.com (65.54.30.7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.340.0; Wed, 25 Mar 2009 05:33:19 +0100 Received: from NOK-EUMSG-04.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.89]) by nok-am1mhub-06.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.10]) with mapi; Wed, 25 Mar 2009 05:33:19 +0100 From: To: , Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 05:33:14 +0100 Thread-Topic: [MORG] fuzzy search Thread-Index: Acmsy8Nt1//rnRDHQlmzfGzHUF8HQQANcHvg Message-ID: <913D54FAAD0B4F40A6C67321B4091B1B309B32EB8C@NOK-EUMSG-04.mgdnok.nokia.com> References: <1237931934.24642.498.camel@timo-desktop> In-Reply-To: <1237931934.24642.498.camel@timo-desktop> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Mar 2009 04:33:20.0502 (UTC) FILETIME=[D3668160:01C9AD02] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [MORG] fuzzy search X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 04:33:12 -0000 Hi Timo, "However, the result MUST NOT contain messages that don't have a \Seen flag= set or whose size is 5000 bytes or more." I do not understand why the size limit cannot be fuzzy. What happens when y= ou find a match that is 5016 bytes? Instead of making it "not found", it c= ould get a lower score. Same for seen and unseen. I am not sure what to say about SORT - could yield funny results - I would = need to see it in action. BTW: are you using the right boilerplate? Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 =20 >-----Original Message----- >From: morg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:morg-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 >Behalf Of ext Timo Sirainen >Sent: 24 March, 2009 23:59 >To: morg@ietf.org >Subject: [MORG] fuzzy search > >I was hoping that we could talk about fuzzy search on Friday,=20 >even though the draft wasn't submitted on time. Because=20 >initial drafts can't currently be uploaded, I'm attaching it=20 >to this mail. Hopefully enough people have had time to read it=20 >by Friday. Should be a pretty quick read. :) > >= From tss@iki.fi Tue Mar 24 21:48:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C6D33A6AD7 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:48:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gEw+UyXTRDbl for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dovecot.org (dovecot.org [82.118.211.50]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E7143A681D for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.15.4] (c-24-127-33-71.hsd1.va.comcast.net [24.127.33.71]) by dovecot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BEA91647308; Wed, 25 Mar 2009 06:49:09 +0200 (EET) Message-Id: <31145A7E-89F9-4690-B6A4-D45F06820A76@iki.fi> From: Timo Sirainen To: In-Reply-To: <913D54FAAD0B4F40A6C67321B4091B1B309B32EB8C@NOK-EUMSG-04.mgdnok.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 00:49:07 -0400 References: <1237931934.24642.498.camel@timo-desktop> <913D54FAAD0B4F40A6C67321B4091B1B309B32EB8C@NOK-EUMSG-04.mgdnok.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] fuzzy search X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 04:48:22 -0000 On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:33 AM, wrote: > "However, the result MUST NOT contain messages that don't have a > \Seen flag set or whose size is 5000 bytes or more." > > I do not understand why the size limit cannot be fuzzy. What happens > when you find a match that is 5016 bytes? Instead of making it "not > found", it could get a lower score. > Same for seen and unseen. Originally I had been thinking about a bit different syntax where this text made much more sense. Then Alexey suggested a better way, and yes, I did start wondering if this made sense afterwards but decided to just post the draft as it is and see what other people thought about it. I can think of one potential reason why it might not be good to allow it: If it was allowed, is it a MUST, SHOULD or MAY that 5016 bytes can find 5000 bytes message? And if so, what should be the limit when it's dropped out of the search results? Or should it always be there, just with a smaller score (minimum score)? If there is no recommended limit for servers, is there a recommandation to clients when they should put such queries inside the FUZZY rules? I suppose another way to look at it would be to look at it from user's perspective. Anything inside FUZZY should be supplied by the user. User may want to look at "about" 5000 byte message, and server should prioritize the results accordingly and without restrictions to implementation. Same as with strings. > I am not sure what to say about SORT - could yield funny results - I > would need to see it in action. I'm not sure what you mean by this. SORT is the main reason why the whole relevancy even exists. > BTW: are you using the right boilerplate? I think so. It got changed somewhat recently and I think I'm using the same as e.g. STATUS-IN-LIST (but too lazy to check right now). From arnt@oryx.com Thu Mar 26 06:13:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF803A6A7E for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:13:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32QvRB+xhrxW for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFECF3A6B12 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B894AC22; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:13:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1238073223-1930-1929/6/5 (2 recipients); Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:13:43 +0100 Message-Id: <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:12:44 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:13:13 -0000 Cyrus Daboo writes: > Hi Timo, > > --On February 13, 2009 5:50:53 PM -0500 Timo Sirainen wrote: > >> The IMAP SEARCH=INTHREAD and THREAD=REFS Extensions >> >> > > Technically OK, but I was left wondering why the heck I would want to > implement the new SEARCH capabilities if I were a client. This document is meant to answer some questions. It doesn't tell you to ask those questions. In my not at all humble opinion, there's a four-step process: 1. You need to want to do something. 2. You look for ways to do it. 3. You find some RFC. 4. You read it. 4 comes after 1. Telling people in step 4 that they should want something is no good. This implies that an RFC must be findable for the people whose questions it answers, then it must answer their questions (and do so clearly enough that they understand it). I added some text to the address-search document, answering the all too common question "how do I implement so-and-so if the server does and doesn't implement this extension"? I guess similar stuff would be useful here. Also, I'll dream up some google searches and see that the draft is found. > I think the document needs to have more examples or concrete use cases > to better explain why these changes are important and how clients > would make use of them, and what the benefit to the server is to > implement. What are some RFCs that do this and benefit from it? > For this document an explanation of what clients are doing today with > threads and IMAP protocol use with that vs what would happen with the > new extension would go a long way to justifying implementing this. I'll add that. (Where will you implement it?) Arnt From markrcrispin@panda.com Thu Mar 26 08:25:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA003A6B4F for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:25:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rQ-Te+Fvr2vR for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438473A6B4E for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com markrcrispin@Panda.COM [206.124.149.116] by Panda.COM with M+ Extreme Email Engine 2008.3.internal via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:25:51 -0700 X-MailFrom: markrcrispin@panda.com Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:25:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Message-ID: References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:25:00 -0000 On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> Technically OK, but I was left wondering why the heck I would want to >> implement the new SEARCH capabilities if I were a client. > This document is meant to answer some questions. It doesn't tell you to ask > those questions. It also begs the question: why the heck I would want to implement any of this if I were a server. What is the business case to expend the substantial resources (real $$$) to implement these extensions? Where are the customers who want these extensions? How many additional sales will be made if these extensions are implemented? > In my not at all humble opinion, there's a four-step process: > 1. You need to want to do something. > 2. You look for ways to do it. > 3. You find some RFC. > 4. You read it. In other words, this working group is producing a solution, in hope that eventually there will be a problem for that solution to solve. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no Thu Mar 26 08:26:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91683A6DA7 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:26:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id njB7vvjrNooq for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA6023A6B4F for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12A1A4AC46; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:27:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1238081218-1930-1929/6/6 (2 recipients); Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:26:58 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:26:00 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <4997437C.2090601@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4997437C.2090601@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: arnt@oryx.com Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:26:09 -0000 Alexey Melnikov writes: > Most of my comments are editorial: Done. > I think the document needs to define what "normalized" means here. OK. >> 4. The THREAD=REFS Thread Algorithm >> >> The THREAD=REFS thread algorithm is defined as the part of >> THREAD=REFERENCES (see [RFC5256]) which concerns itself with the >> References, In-Reply-To and Message-ID fields. THREAD=REFS ignores >> Subject. > > Does this mean that the algorithm is effectively ignoring step (5) > from RFC 5256? Yes. >> It is explicitly permitted for the server to persistently store >> threading information, even if this causes the server to return >> different information than it would otherwise. This can happen if >> the first messages in a thread are deleted, for example. > > This is a strange paragraph. Why is it needed? If you thread incrementally as messages are added to the mailbox, and some messages are deleted, then your results may be slightly different from if you thread at read time. I want that to be OK. Arnt From arnt@oryx.com Thu Mar 26 08:33:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 921C53A69F6 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:33:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0CyhC+HeoB7x for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D10073A6C14 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB1E4AC22; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:33:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1238081617-1930-1929/6/7 for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:33:37 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:32:38 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:33:35 -0000 Mark Crispin writes: > On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >>> Technically OK, but I was left wondering why the heck I would want >>> to implement the new SEARCH capabilities if I were a client. >> This document is meant to answer some questions. It doesn't tell you >> to ask those questions. > > It also begs the question: why the heck I would want to implement any > of this if I were a server. > > What is the business case to expend the substantial resources (real > $$$) to implement these extensions? Where are the customers who want > these extensions? How many additional sales will be made if these > extensions are implemented? Are you seriously suggesting that any of this should go into an RFC? >> In my not at all humble opinion, there's a four-step process: >> 1. You need to want to do something. >> 2. You look for ways to do it. >> 3. You find some RFC. >> 4. You read it. > > In other words, this working group is producing a solution, in hope > that eventually there will be a problem for that solution to solve. That risk certainly exists. Each of us has to decide whether this is worth the effort. I'm not going to try and persuade you that it's worth anything _for_you_. (FWIW, in my case the capabilities are valuable but providing an IMAP interface is of dubious value.) Arnt From markrcrispin@panda.com Thu Mar 26 09:00:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCC13A6DFF for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:00:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7gP99o6-Zfny for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35FCB3A6E13 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com markrcrispin@Panda.COM [206.124.149.116] by Panda.COM with M+ Extreme Email Engine 2008.3.internal via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:01:04 -0700 X-MailFrom: markrcrispin@panda.com Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:01:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:00:13 -0000 On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Are you seriously suggesting that any of this should go into an RFC? I am saying that an RFC should have a compelling reason to exist. In those cases where this is not immediately obvious, it needs to present the justifications for its existence. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Thu Mar 26 09:16:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB463A68BF for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:16:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KOtAbbP9iEYN for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f130.google.com (mail-qy0-f130.google.com [209.85.221.130]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2603A6BAE for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36so1189221qyk.29 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:17:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pCFJWQVtH9EXMwlyP4AtYtOKHmU3aN6QPM16Kq4EfzI=; b=l5RjbMZQVrm85Sdbk5V4Q6GQG0TWLzHp5L50/1uKqazKONiV6pIcldazin/l38Ttzz I224uWRC++IE9JbJ4xJxgcDFFKK+cg/LkaWniMv4Ff2DWNp+2Y3h71I91Sxj288DyRXd 4uez+I3DABgCAO07NAeozJcCWZlGDPkVHpet8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=ShTV+crkP9TNLxPUBJc+aEW9hSZqdfDvsRdrWflSTPH+chLWEJRPivtzATfWyuYpe2 ptT7QCUfiyFMKJ606azwCKXp6eKnfm1Sokqga9GUk9fPQY+A9dGXTxWjOpOGo6mSRl5V JSQamcF2XsAA3vwysAgP+IRr/TmbEIm0sDBO0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.220.85.199 with SMTP id p7mr310521vcl.104.1238084242770; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:17:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:17:22 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f6b1033e9c148f1b Message-ID: <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> From: Barry Leiba To: Mark Crispin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:16:30 -0000 FWIW, I agree with Mark. Writing something up just because it sounds like a good idea is fine, as far as it goes, but we should not underestimate the real cost of putting something into the standards track. If we all say, "Yeah, that's cool," but then no one implements it in real products[1], we've wasted a lot. Barry [1] Well, no one except the author and his mom, or whatever; you know what I mean. From arnt@oryx.com Thu Mar 26 09:34:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE7A3A67E3 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:34:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GnRxEW9t8JDM for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377FC3A6897 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B26D34AC22; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:35:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1238085343-1930-1929/6/8 (2 recipients); Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:35:43 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:34:44 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:34:52 -0000 Barry Leiba writes: > FWIW, I agree with Mark. Writing something up just because it sounds > like a good idea is fine, as far as it goes, but we should not > underestimate the real cost of putting something into the standards > track. If we all say, "Yeah, that's cool," but then no one implements > it in real products[1], we've wasted a lot. I don't mind dropping either just S=I or the entire document, if that's WG consensus. Timo/Randy, will you take a hum tomorrow morning? Personally I think that most of the MORG documents are well-justified and sensible. Rather more so than some other recent IMAP-related documents. But that's just my opinion. If I'm an outlier, that's okay. > Barry > > [1] Well, no one except the author and his mom, or whatever; you know > what I mean. Sure. Arnt From markrcrispin@panda.com Thu Mar 26 09:38:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A8C3A67DD for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:38:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U8ZyXFQKxa-j for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F6528C178 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com markrcrispin@Panda.COM [206.124.149.116] by Panda.COM with M+ Extreme Email Engine 2008.3.internal via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:39:09 -0700 X-MailFrom: markrcrispin@panda.com Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:39:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:38:20 -0000 On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Personally I think that most of the MORG documents are well-justified and > sensible. Rather more so than some other recent IMAP-related documents. But > that's just my opinion. If I'm an outlier, that's okay. For what it is worth, I share your opinion of the other recent IMAP-related documents. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From arnt@oryx.com Thu Mar 26 09:41:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4011D3A6DA3 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:41:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id csRiqb9Krssq for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A123A68CB for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D434AC22; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:42:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1238085750-1930-1929/6/9 (2 recipients); Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:42:30 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:41:32 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:41:39 -0000 Mark Crispin writes: > On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> Personally I think that most of the MORG documents are well-justified >> and sensible. Rather more so than some other recent IMAP-related >> documents. But that's just my opinion. If I'm an outlier, that's >> okay. > > For what it is worth, I share your opinion of the other recent > IMAP-related documents. I said "some", you didn't ;) I wonder whether we'd write the same list. Arnt From arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no Thu Mar 26 09:50:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEEC3A6BAE for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:50:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.148 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.148 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bEgdLaoHVvIu for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E1F03A693B for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F35C4AC22; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:51:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1238086296-1930-1929/6/10 for morg@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:51:36 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:50:37 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <4997437C.2090601@isode.com> <4997456E.9090103@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4997456E.9090103@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: arnt@oryx.com Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:50:44 -0000 Alexey Melnikov writes: > Some additional comments: >> The INTHREAD search-key matches a message if its subsidiary >> search-key matches at least one message in the same thread as the >> message. > > Every time I looked at this sentence it makes me 20 seconds in order > to understand it. > Wouldn't it be better to say that first all messages matching the > subsidiary search-key are found. Then all messages belonging to the > same threads are returned. Like this perhaps? "The INTHREAD search-key takes another search-key as argument. If the argument matches any message in a thread, then INTHREAD matches all messages in that thread." >> 3.5. The THREAD=* Search Return Option(s) >> >> The THREAD=* search return options enables the client to select >> which threading algorithm the server uses when processing >> INTHREAD, THREADROOT and THREADLEAF as part of a SEARCH command. >> If THREAD=* isn't specified, then the default for the SEARCH >> command is THREAD=REFS. > > I hate to raise this issue, but should we establish an IANA registry > for search return options? I see your point, but I'd like to see a little more ESEARCH use in clients before bothering with that. Arnt From markrcrispin@panda.com Thu Mar 26 10:09:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E688C28C1A3 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aEs2JAyk1xUF for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1616E28C19D for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com markrcrispin@Panda.COM [206.124.149.116] by Panda.COM with M+ Extreme Email Engine 2008.3.internal via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:10:48 -0700 X-MailFrom: markrcrispin@panda.com Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:10:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:09:57 -0000 On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> For what it is worth, I share your opinion of the other recent IMAP-related >> documents. > I said "some", you didn't ;) I wonder whether we'd write the same list. With the notable exception of the security extensions (STARTTLS, LOGINDISABLED, AUTH=) pretty much all the IMAP extensions, past and present, have no market value to any vendor determining a feature set for a new server. A few older extensions have use cases for a single client, and thus are worthile only if you have many customers who use that client. Some others were good ideas but were broken by design and/or were never used as intended. The subscription stuff in the base specification also falls into this category. The less said about the remainder, the better. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Thu Mar 26 10:29:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6A93A68AC for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:29:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.595 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.595 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.004, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wNA3k7I-VkxY for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A10D3A684B for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.129.20.248] (dhcp-14f8.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.20.248]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:30:02 +0000 Message-ID: <49CBBB86.6090108@isode.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:29:42 -0700 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: IMAP Extensions WG , morg@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [MORG] Friends of IMAP dinner on Thursday evening (today) X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:29:10 -0000 Folks, Sorry for the late suggestion, but there is a proposal to hold Friends of IMAP dinner tonight, after the IAB plenary (7:30pm at the Hilton lobby). Please let Chris, Lisa or myself know if you are likely to attend. From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Thu Mar 26 10:32:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8143A6A7F for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:32:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id leE8kFvpSmE0 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f160.google.com (mail-gx0-f160.google.com [209.85.217.160]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CBF53A697B for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk4 with SMTP id 4so1373950gxk.13 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:32:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8bcgxopsI9/Mx5/6fu3Gmj7CHYgKPvgiOrZSH5shqRw=; b=UUWhDTUkum+rt8LlE2fimLT8XpprOZLYFUlOlVRqICLOhqeydGu2ABqSNBJvQIAXwR wkZANjdzC8PhPO49fO+g8B4gDtXKh8ICp7jWnoubb1pUveooNXdNvXn+K1Y+cNDJqXXE eV9C2rIoLYxF5GK7YwAFMMYMYx2Neho7c6Kzk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=m+JMQcIDMvhGP7mLCoi1OEm2RNk5tD5FldzLaWShhSsp8CMfmQmZnUAP4ziPHjEv5F +dJkBlCxNWtG5+ckr2bebzoQb91jEeJy06BkhiCHEL4p25mbWRrPDOUwJU3vOeYp7Spe DnPoDi/x9EG/Nw/SLNmhcX0vCl/CtjJF0CACI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.164.12 with SMTP id m12mr906451ane.144.1238088774345; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:32:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <49CBBB86.6090108@isode.com> References: <49CBBB86.6090108@isode.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:32:54 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 48595c0f769162d9 Message-ID: <6c9fcc2a0903261032p730fa226g2399a05a698c7b6e@mail.gmail.com> From: Barry Leiba To: Alexey Melnikov Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IMAP Extensions WG , morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] Friends of IMAP dinner on Thursday evening (today) X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:32:02 -0000 > Sorry for the late suggestion, but there is a proposal to hold Friends of > IMAP dinner tonight, after the IAB plenary (7:30pm at the Hilton lobby). How 'bout a FOI lunch today, instead? Otherwise, my regrets: I have dinner plans. Barry From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Thu Mar 26 10:33:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0111C3A688C for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:33:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.595 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.595 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.004, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vK1RfH+jAMgB for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD05528C13E for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.129.20.248] (dhcp-14f8.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.20.248]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:34:09 +0000 Message-ID: <49CBBC7D.1060204@isode.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:33:49 -0700 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Barry Leiba References: <49CBBB86.6090108@isode.com> <6c9fcc2a0903261032p730fa226g2399a05a698c7b6e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6c9fcc2a0903261032p730fa226g2399a05a698c7b6e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IMAP Extensions WG , morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] Friends of IMAP dinner on Thursday evening (today) X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:33:18 -0000 Barry Leiba wrote: >>Sorry for the late suggestion, but there is a proposal to hold Friends of >>IMAP dinner tonight, after the IAB plenary (7:30pm at the Hilton lobby). >> >> >How 'bout a FOI lunch today, instead? > >Otherwise, my regrets: I have dinner plans. > > I have EAI lunch today, sorry. From tss@iki.fi Thu Mar 26 10:40:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321DA3A688C for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:40:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LT05qDRIAGbV for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dovecot.org (dovecot.org [82.118.211.50]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4213A676A for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.15.4] (c-24-127-33-71.hsd1.va.comcast.net [24.127.33.71]) by dovecot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6DA1647324 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:41:49 +0200 (EET) Message-Id: <60BAE8A8-71E8-4E9E-BE88-6DD419D806B3@iki.fi> From: Timo Sirainen To: morg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:41:47 -0400 References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:40:59 -0000 On Mar 26, 2009, at 11:32 AM, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> It also begs the question: why the heck I would want to implement >> any of this if I were a server. >> >> What is the business case to expend the substantial resources (real >> $$$) to implement these extensions? Where are the customers who >> want these extensions? How many additional sales will be made if >> these extensions are implemented? .. > (FWIW, in my case the capabilities are valuable but providing an > IMAP interface is of dubious value.) In my case it's pretty much the same. The functionality is required to implement features that customers want (like "gmail-like conversation views"), but it's mainly used in configuration files. The IMAP part just came without any extra code, so it would be nice to get it standardized. If INTHREAD doesn't become a standard, Dovecot will still have a X-INTHREAD search key. But I do find THREAD=REFS very useful as an alternative to THREAD=REFERENCES. From randy@qualcomm.com Thu Mar 26 10:52:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813BC28C269 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:52:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.111 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.111 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.488, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IalU+9MMle5Q for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894AF28C23F for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:52:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1238089987; x=1269625987; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer: x-message-note:date:to:from:subject:mime-version: content-type:x-random-sig-tag:x-ironport-av; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20<49CBBC7D.1060204@isode.com>=0D=0A=20<6c9 fcc2a0903261032p730fa226g2399a05a698c7b6e@mail.gmail.com> =0D=0A=20<49CBBB86.6090108@isode.com>|References:=20<49CB BB86.6090108@isode.com>=0D=0A=20=09<6c9fcc2a0903261032p73 0fa226g2399a05a698c7b6e@mail.gmail.com>=0D=0A=20<49CBBC7D .1060204@isode.com>=0D=0A=20<6c9fcc2a0903261032p730fa226g 2399a05a698c7b6e@mail.gmail.com>=0D=0A=20<49CBBB86.609010 8@isode.com>|X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X |X-message-Note:=20Warning:=20Outlook=20in=20use.=20=20Up grade=20to=20Eudora:=20|Date:=20Th u,=2026=20Mar=202009=2010:50:15=20-0700|To:=20Alexey=20Me lnikov=20,=0D=0A=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20IMAP=20Extensions=20WG=0D=0A=09,=20,=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20Barry=20Leiba=0D=0A=09|From: =20Randall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re :=20[MORG]=20Friends=20of=20IMAP=20dinner=20on=20Thursday =20evening=20(today)|MIME-Version:=201.0|Content-Type:=20 text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"=3B=20format=3Dflowed |X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28|X-IronPort-AV:=20E=3DMcAfee =3Bi=3D"5300,2777,5565"=3B=20a=3D"16638714"; bh=f8Ye8IQ8SoVDv3HDxaQ86KPo1KLJfKBCAFZYgJo6NzU=; b=NZdoqOeBjbPHnIOi9sQ06Q7sGd611kNqNE3giJJ6ey3SG2mIpfV1n9ji 9I5a6JyJOk8en4vlrDw7b39Ttu73Hv6tywjiocYcm7/OXi/XNfq1I0zC8 9KtkOersi7rC/+kGq88rnFntVJV5uGocs8pWMpXn/D+vvgUtKCui67MjK 4=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5300,2777,5565"; a="16638714" Received: from pdmz-ns-mip.qualcomm.com (HELO ithilien.qualcomm.com) ([199.106.114.10]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 26 Mar 2009 10:53:07 -0700 Received: from msgtransport02.qualcomm.com (msgtransport02.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.151]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id n2QHr6Lw001042 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:53:06 -0700 Received: from nasanexhub04.na.qualcomm.com (nasanexhub04.qualcomm.com [129.46.134.222]) by msgtransport02.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id n2QHqxjZ007778 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:53:04 -0700 Received: from nasanexmsp01.na.qualcomm.com (10.45.56.204) by nasanexhub04.na.qualcomm.com (129.46.134.222) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.340.0; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:53:01 -0700 Received: from [67.99.198.91] (10.46.82.6) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (10.45.56.204) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.340.0; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:53:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <49CBBC7D.1060204@isode.com> <6c9fcc2a0903261032p730fa226g2399a05a698c7b6e@mail.gmail.com> <49CBBB86.6090108@isode.com> References: <49CBBB86.6090108@isode.com> <6c9fcc2a0903261032p730fa226g2399a05a698c7b6e@mail.gmail.com> <49CBBC7D.1060204@isode.com> <6c9fcc2a0903261032p730fa226g2399a05a698c7b6e@mail.gmail.com> <49CBBB86.6090108@isode.com> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X X-message-Note: Warning: Outlook in use. Upgrade to Eudora: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:50:15 -0700 To: Alexey Melnikov , IMAP Extensions WG , , Barry Leiba From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 Subject: Re: [MORG] Friends of IMAP dinner on Thursday evening (today) X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:52:14 -0000 I'm free for both lunch and dinner today -- I'm unpopular this week :-) -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Twas brillig when the slithy toves Did gyre and gimbel in the wabe. All mimsy were the borogroves And the mome rath outgabe. --Lewis Carroll From Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Thu Mar 26 10:58:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B49B28C144 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:58:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.564 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.564 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7bbxS+N7CrWI for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4004A3A6B2A for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (vaebh105.europe.nokia.com [10.160.244.31]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id n2QHwFGb020556; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:58:40 +0200 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by vaebh105.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:58:23 +0200 Received: from smtp.mgd.nokia.com ([65.54.30.8]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:58:22 +0200 Received: from nok-am1mhub-08.mgdnok.nokia.com (65.54.30.15) by NOK-AM1MHUB-04.mgdnok.nokia.com (65.54.30.8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.340.0; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:58:22 +0100 Received: from NOK-EUMSG-04.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.89]) by nok-am1mhub-08.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.15]) with mapi; Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:58:22 +0100 From: To: , , Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:58:20 +0100 Thread-Topic: [MORG] Friends of IMAP dinner on Thursday evening (today) Thread-Index: AcmuOIQRDQ4oJQFtTniUCrOnywtEgwAA5iHA Message-ID: <913D54FAAD0B4F40A6C67321B4091B1B309B36557B@NOK-EUMSG-04.mgdnok.nokia.com> References: <49CBBB86.6090108@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <49CBBB86.6090108@isode.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2009 17:58:23.0018 (UTC) FILETIME=[745B48A0:01C9AE3C] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [MORG] Friends of IMAP dinner on Thursday evening (today) X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:58:14 -0000 Hi Alexey, I am free for both lunch and dinner - I am just an unpopular as Randall, ma= yb even less ;-) So, +1.= From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Fri Mar 27 07:29:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A943A6C43 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 07:29:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.295 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.295 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.296, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id awMPU-SR4Uly for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 07:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0AE63A6AA1 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 07:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.129.20.248] (dhcp-14f8.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.20.248]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:29:51 +0000 Message-ID: <49CCC518.8030008@isode.com> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:22:48 -0700 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Arnt Gulbrandsen References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <4997437C.2090601@isode.com> <4997456E.9090103@isode.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:29:06 -0000 Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Alexey Melnikov writes: > >> Some additional comments: >> >>> The INTHREAD search-key matches a message if its subsidiary >>> search-key matches at least one message in the same thread as the >>> message. >> >> Every time I looked at this sentence it makes me 20 seconds in order >> to understand it. >> Wouldn't it be better to say that first all messages matching the >> subsidiary search-key are found. Then all messages belonging to the >> same threads are returned. > > Like this perhaps? "The INTHREAD search-key takes another search-key > as argument. If the argument matches any message in a thread, then > INTHREAD matches all messages in that thread." Yes, this is much better. >>> 3.5. The THREAD=* Search Return Option(s) >>> >>> The THREAD=* search return options enables the client to select >>> which threading algorithm the server uses when processing >>> INTHREAD, THREADROOT and THREADLEAF as part of a SEARCH command. >>> If THREAD=* isn't specified, then the default for the SEARCH >>> command is THREAD=REFS. >> >> I hate to raise this issue, but should we establish an IANA registry >> for search return options? > > I see your point, but I'd like to see a little more ESEARCH use in > clients before bothering with that. Ok. From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Fri Mar 27 07:29:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C98028C16F for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 07:29:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.282 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.282 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.283, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TEr5l9QrZ2ex for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 07:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B58028C12F for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 07:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.129.20.248] (dhcp-14f8.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.20.248]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:30:03 +0000 Message-ID: <49CCC6D2.2020907@isode.com> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:30:10 -0700 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Arnt Gulbrandsen References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> In-Reply-To: <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:29:14 -0000 Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Cyrus Daboo writes: > >> Hi Timo, >> >> --On February 13, 2009 5:50:53 PM -0500 Timo Sirainen >> wrote: >> >>> The IMAP SEARCH=INTHREAD and THREAD=REFS Extensions >>> >>> >> >> Technically OK, but I was left wondering why the heck I would want to >> implement the new SEARCH capabilities if I were a client. > > This document is meant to answer some questions. It doesn't tell you > to ask those questions. > > In my not at all humble opinion, there's a four-step process: > > 1. You need to want to do something. > 2. You look for ways to do it. > 3. You find some RFC. > 4. You read it. > > 4 comes after 1. Telling people in step 4 that they should want > something is no good. > > This implies that an RFC must be findable for the people whose > questions it answers, then it must answer their questions (and do so > clearly enough that they understand it). Last sentence: I agree. > I added some text to the address-search document, answering the all > too common question "how do I implement so-and-so if the server does > and doesn't implement this extension"? I guess similar stuff would be > useful here. Sure. > Also, I'll dream up some google searches and see that the draft is found. > >> I think the document needs to have more examples or concrete use >> cases to better explain why these changes are important and how >> clients would make use of them, and what the benefit to the server is >> to implement. > > What are some RFCs that do this and benefit from it? I can't remember any RFC doing this from the top of my head, but I think I've done something like this in SEARCHRES document. I actually agree with this comment from Cyrus and I am happy to suggest some text. From arnt@oryx.com Fri Mar 27 07:35:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9242B3A6A2F for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 07:35:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iJov9o8W0JAH for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 07:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A40CB3A6C58 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 07:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974FE4AC46; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:35:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1238164556-1930-1929/6/17 (2 recipients); Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:35:56 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:35:56 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <49CCC6D2.2020907@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <49CCC6D2.2020907@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:35:06 -0000 Alexey Melnikov writes: > I actually agree with this comment from Cyrus and I am happy to > suggest some text. Great. Something about that comment reallly pushed my buttons. Sorry about that. I know I'm a difficult kind of person. Anyway, I think suggested text will please me much more. Arnt From Chris.Newman@Sun.COM Fri Mar 27 11:28:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A6B3A69B3 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:28:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.421 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.421 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.575, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bW32UEwlFutl for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (sca-es-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.43.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C883A6855 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n2RITAaf008823 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:29:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-5.01 64bit (built Feb 19 2009)) id <0KH600000G9B3300@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dhcp-16f4.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.244]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-5.01 64bit (built Feb 19 2009)) with ESMTPSA id <0KH600K6CGOJPO50@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:29:07 -0700 From: Chris Newman Sender: Chris.Newman@Sun.COM To: morg@ietf.org Message-id: <2B024F10EC61046FC778D41A@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) Subject: [MORG] draft scribe notes from meeting X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:28:20 -0000 MORG WG -- IETF 74 -- San Francisco -- 2009-03-27 Scribe: Chris Newman Jabber Scribe: Cyrus Daboo Status-in-List Slides open issue slide 1: Barry: Who in room is doing servers? Will you all implement this? * Multiple server implementers in room, all interested in implementing this. Barry: Who in the room is doing clients? * Only one in room, but intends to implement it. One other client guy (not in room interested) interested. Arnt: "Roundqueue" implementation that sends _lots_ of STATUS (see jabber room). Barry: NO is not right answer. Prefer #2 bullet from slide. Alexey: +1 (as contributor) Chris: +1 ** Rough consensus for option 2. Sort display open issue slide 2 (DISPLAYTO): Alexey: think we need DISPLAYTO. Barry: thought "use first address" was resolved on list. ** Rough consensus for both points. slide 3 (INTHREAD): Open issue: should we do it? Barry: who is likely to implement it? 2 of 4 server implementers 0 client implementers Cyrus & Barry discuss THREAD=REFS vs. THREAD=REFERENCES Discussion of impact that c-client likely won't implement this. ** Chair (Randy): This appears to be a lower priority draft due to lack of implementer interest. Open issue: how to encode Message-ID? Alexey: needs to be quoted. Having angle brackets ugly but not a big deal. Barry: prefers treating msgid as blob Timo: heard from Arnt via email that it should be treated as blob. ** Rough consensus for last option. Address search Discussion. Cyrus: suggest we be very explicit here (1a), allow fuzzy search to go further ** Rough consensus for Cyrus proposal Alexey: If somebody says SEARCH DOMAIN or SEARCH ADDRESS and list header not mentioned in RFC 5322. Is this an error or should this succeed? Timo & Alexey prefer it succeeds. Address search and non-toplevel messages? Base spec states next to nothing on topic. Long discussion. Cyrus: for now leave it top-level only. We can always do extension later to traverse structure. **Rough consensus for option a. Address search and fallbacks or not? **Leave to editor's discretion. Fuzzy search non-string criteria Servers can do what they want, but interpret it in a useful way. ** Rough consensus Fuzzy search relevancy scores Discussion result: Have server normalize 0-100 primarily for result sorting. Informative note servers may weight or normalize in arbitrary ways but should be cognizant of UI impact. Fuzzy search: relevancy & fuzzy linked Keep them together. ascii-signed-numeric No objections, but seems low priority / limited support ascii-punc-ignore-numeric Needs new name, need to ignore parens, currency symbols? Cyrus: should ", " be separator between numbers, while "," is ignored. Chris: would like to look at use cases and build collators that fit them. Other comparators * Space ignoring comparator (e.g., for Japanese text) strong support either Ned or Chris will own this work item. * Case sensitive version of i;unicode-casemap? might want to focus on i;basic instead limited support Need to discuss interaction of fuzzy search and collators on list. Multi-mailbox search Chris: relevancy: what order to present results. Could use with fuzzy. List wildcards or notify-style subtree? Several supporters for subtree. No objections to using subtrees. Several supporters to make depth a must. Barry: issue with implementations that have loops in hierarchy. Chris: Infinity means search each mailbox in subtree once. Lots of design discussion: exceptions for trash, shared folders, etc. Big open issue about how to limit and order returned results. meeting concluded. From arnt@oryx.com Fri Mar 27 11:33:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94D113A69B3 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:33:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mH-WNiOpIddS for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752CB3A679C for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877FA4AC59; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:33:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1238178839-1930-1929/6/20 for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:33:59 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:33:59 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <4997437C.2090601@isode.com> <4997456E.9090103@isode.com> <49CCC518.8030008@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <49CCC518.8030008@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:33:07 -0000 Alexey Melnikov writes: > Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> Like this perhaps? "The INTHREAD search-key takes another search-key >> as argument. If the argument matches any message in a thread, then >> INTHREAD matches all messages in that thread." > > Yes, this is much better. I revised both drafts based on room discussion already. I don't think I can get them out until Monday though, no time for nits now. But everyone's in a post-coital vacuum for a few days anyway, right? Arnt From cking@mumbo.ca Fri Mar 27 12:30:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DBF3A67D9 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:30:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 70CT-P9TsupK for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from renoir.mumbo.ca (renoir.mumbo.ca [67.223.232.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BFC3A66B4 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (S0106001b63f2007e.gv.shawcable.net [24.69.170.86]) by renoir.mumbo.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C7D97A4001; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <74E86DC1-440F-42D2-BB42-FD2291F51672@mumbo.ca> From: Curtis King To: Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:30:51 -0700 References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:30:01 -0000 On 26-Mar-09, at 10:10 AM, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >>> For what it is worth, I share your opinion of the other recent >>> IMAP-related documents. >> I said "some", you didn't ;) I wonder whether we'd write the same >> list. > > With the notable exception of the security extensions (STARTTLS, > LOGINDISABLED, AUTH=) pretty much all the IMAP extensions, past and > present, have no market value to any vendor determining a feature > set for a new server. I did a check on my server to see what extensions are being used by clients and there only seems to-be 10 extensions in use by the most common imap clients. Clients: Apple Mail, Thunderbird, Mobile Mail, Outlook and php imap client. Mark your client is missing but I'm sure you can add any missing extensions to the list :-) Extensions: STARTTLS, AUTH=, LOGINDISABLED, UIDPLUS, LITERAL+, NAMESPACE, IDLE, ACL, UNSELECT and QUOTA. I'm sure there are some more clients which use a few more extensions, but that still means ~16 extensions we (Isode) have implemented are not being used. Not a very good ratio. Yet, here we are planning on adding more. ck From markrcrispin@panda.com Fri Mar 27 13:24:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57953A6857 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:24:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id syK38-wabF72 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 615C03A67E9 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com markrcrispin@Panda.COM [206.124.149.116] by Panda.COM with M+ Extreme Email Engine 2008.3.internal via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:24:55 -0700 X-MailFrom: markrcrispin@panda.com Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:24:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Curtis King In-Reply-To: <74E86DC1-440F-42D2-BB42-FD2291F51672@mumbo.ca> Message-ID: References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> <74E86DC1-440F-42D2-BB42-FD2291F51672@mumbo.ca> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: morg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:24:02 -0000 On Fri, 27 Mar 2009, Curtis King wrote: > I did a check on my server to see what extensions are being used by clients > and there only seems to-be 10 extensions in use by the most common imap > clients. I am not particularly surprised. > Clients: Apple Mail, Thunderbird, Mobile Mail, Outlook and php imap client. > Mark your client is missing but I'm sure you can add any missing extensions > to the list :-) I think that Pine/Alpine remains a fairly important client! ;-) I'm surprised by your report about PHP-IMAP, since it uses the same internal engine used by Pine, Alpine, UW imapd, and Panda imapd. Maybe PHP-IMAP doesn't offer a sort capability. So, with that said... > Extensions: STARTTLS, AUTH=, LOGINDISABLED, UIDPLUS, LITERAL+, NAMESPACE, > IDLE, ACL, UNSELECT and QUOTA. Of the listed extensions: Pine/Alpine uses STARTTLS, AUTH=, LOGINDISABLED, NAMESPACE, and UNSELECT. Pine/Alpine does not use UIDPLUS, LITERAL+, or IDLE, but these are all implemented in UW/Panda imapd. I do not dispute their value, other than disputing the claim that LITERAL+ is a satisfactory alternative to MULTIAPPEND. Pine/Alpine does not use ACL and QUOTA, and these are not implemented in UW/Panda imapd. I continue to believe that both extensions are broken by design, but I don't care to continue that debate. In addition to the above named extensions: Pine/Alpine uses SCAN and THREAD=. A major advertised feature depends upon these. Performance is miserable without it. Pine/Alpine uses MULTIAPPEND for cross-mailstore copies, and performance is miserable without it. LITERAL+ does not address the underlying cause of the problem. Nonetheless, the biggest use of MULTIAPPEND is in external administrative programs to move users between servers; I can't imagine IMAP being used for that purpose without MULTIAPPEND. Pine/Alpine also use LOGIN-REFERRALS and MAILBOX-REFERRALS, but I doubt that any tears would be shed by their demise. AFAIK, Cyrus was the only server that implemented it. I implemented several other extensions in UW/Panda imapd mostly because they were trivial, low-hanging fruit; but I have no illusions that any of these are of any real value. > I'm sure there are some more clients which use a few more extensions, but > that still means ~16 extensions we (Isode) have implemented are not being > used. Not a very good ratio. Yet, here we are planning on adding more. I agree. I have largely kept quiet here because I think that the entire exercise is more or less harmless, albeit silly. As I was responsible for similiar silliness in my youth (my very first RFC was the TELNET Logout option), indulgent toleration seems to be the best policy. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From arnt@oryx.com Fri Mar 27 13:40:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8263A6C89 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:40:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7dGdIhiwNaMx for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58BCE3A6BC6 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EEC44AC59; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:41:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1238186473-1930-1929/6/21 for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:41:13 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:41:14 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> <74E86DC1-440F-42D2-BB42-FD2291F51672@mumbo.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:40:21 -0000 Mark Crispin writes: > I'm surprised by your report about PHP-IMAP, since it uses the same > internal engine used by Pine, Alpine, UW imapd, and Panda imapd. > Maybe PHP-IMAP doesn't offer a sort capability. PHP offers c-client, but AFAICT the popular PHP webmail programs don't use it. I looked at squirrelmail and roundcube now since those are often mentioned and I happened to have the source handy: SM uses some homebrew IMAP code, Roundcube uses something called 'ilohamail imap library'. Arnt From arnt@oryx.com Fri Mar 27 13:41:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283E13A6CB1 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:41:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZHqcgKGmrHIn for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAD83A6C89 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C04F4AC59; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:42:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1238186528-1930-1929/6/21 for morg@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:42:08 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:42:08 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> <74E86DC1-440F-42D2-BB42-FD2291F51672@mumbo.ca> In-Reply-To: <74E86DC1-440F-42D2-BB42-FD2291F51672@mumbo.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:41:15 -0000 Curtis King writes: > I'm sure there are some more clients which use a few more extensions, > but that still means ~16 extensions we (Isode) have implemented are > not being used. Not a very good ratio. Yet, here we are planning on > adding more. A bit of discussion of the reasons seems like a good idea. I have opinions but it's late and I'm too tired now. I'll try to post something during the coming week. Arnt From jyee@ca.afilias.info Fri Mar 27 14:04:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 537543A6A9E for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:04:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yr5exewaIQ2l for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound.afilias.info (outbound.afilias.info [69.46.124.26]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7478D3A6A93 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms5.yyz2.afilias-ops.info ([10.50.129.111] helo=smtp.afilias.info) by outbound.afilias.info with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LnJEu-0002BQ-47; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:05:20 +0000 Received: from vgateway.libertyrms.info ([207.219.45.62] helo=ibm-maged.int.libertyrms.com) by smtp.afilias.info with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LnJEu-0001HU-3U; Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:05:20 +0000 Message-Id: <6AF911B2-A5BE-4FDF-9F62-F5CEE6611788@ca.afilias.info> From: Joseph Yee To: Arnt Gulbrandsen , morg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:05:19 -0400 References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> <74E86DC1-440F-42D2-BB42-FD2291F51672@mumbo.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:04:27 -0000 Horde IMP uses PHP-IMAP, which is c-client based. ilohamail is another open source mail client, AFAIK, it was not active for awhile. Roundcube uses it IMAP code base. Regards, Joseph On 27-Mar-09, at 4:41 PM, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Mark Crispin writes: >> I'm surprised by your report about PHP-IMAP, since it uses the same >> internal engine used by Pine, Alpine, UW imapd, and Panda imapd. >> Maybe PHP-IMAP doesn't offer a sort capability. > > PHP offers c-client, but AFAICT the popular PHP webmail programs > don't use it. I looked at squirrelmail and roundcube now since those > are often mentioned and I happened to have the source handy: SM uses > some homebrew IMAP code, Roundcube uses something called 'ilohamail > imap library'. > > Arnt > _______________________________________________ > MORG mailing list > MORG@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/morg > Note Well: http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html From arnt@oryx.com Sat Mar 28 00:46:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 322C93A6A77 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 2009 00:46:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7UcZ6knhfnGi for ; Sat, 28 Mar 2009 00:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F083A68AA for ; Sat, 28 Mar 2009 00:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4394AC4B; Sat, 28 Mar 2009 08:47:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1238226471-1930-1929/6/22 for morg@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Mar 2009 08:47:51 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 08:47:52 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: morg@ietf.org References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> <74E86DC1-440F-42D2-BB42-FD2291F51672@mumbo.ca> <6AF911B2-A5BE-4FDF-9F62-F5CEE6611788@ca.afilias.info> In-Reply-To: <6AF911B2-A5BE-4FDF-9F62-F5CEE6611788@ca.afilias.info> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 07:46:59 -0000 Joseph Yee writes: > Horde IMP uses PHP-IMAP, which is c-client based. > > ilohamail is another open source mail client, AFAIK, it was not active > for awhile. Roundcube uses it IMAP code base. I'm sure I've also seem something else that uses php-imap/c-client a while ago. Can't recall the name, but it was a four-letter abbrevation. It doesn't matter. All I wanted to do was explain the discrepancy betwen what c-client does and Curtus sees that PHP webmail clients do. Arnt From cking@mumbo.ca Sat Mar 28 11:12:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: morg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E770C3A67EA for ; Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:12:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kbpecaYjDCQf for ; Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from renoir.mumbo.ca (renoir.mumbo.ca [67.223.232.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12653A67EF for ; Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (S0106001b63f2007e.gv.shawcable.net [24.69.170.86]) by renoir.mumbo.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B4C6EA4001 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <7FA1A913-FD20-4C71-83F1-DAEE5A8FAD7B@mumbo.ca> From: Curtis King To: morg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <6AF911B2-A5BE-4FDF-9F62-F5CEE6611788@ca.afilias.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:13:40 -0700 References: <1234565453.6132.886.camel@timo-desktop> <5lt3qVJvy+jaTjngz/M+Fg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <6c9fcc2a0903260917o8d5c3c1p86230e23c67ed854@mail.gmail.com> <74E86DC1-440F-42D2-BB42-FD2291F51672@mumbo.ca> <6AF911B2-A5BE-4FDF-9F62-F5CEE6611788@ca.afilias.info> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Subject: Re: [MORG] WGLC on draft-ietf-morg-inthread-00 X-BeenThere: morg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Messaging Organization List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 18:12:56 -0000 On 27-Mar-09, at 2:05 PM, Joseph Yee wrote: > ilohamail is another open source mail client, AFAIK, it was not > active for awhile. Roundcube uses it IMAP code base. Roundcube is the webmail I use, so that's why SORT or THREAD are missing from my list of extensions. ck