
From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Thu Jan  6 12:05:54 2011
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To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
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Subject: Re: [MORG] Expiration impending: draft-ietf-morg-inthread
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Barry Leiba wrote:

>>I want to update. But I want to update WITH RUNNING CODE, and I still don't
>>have an updated implementation.
>>    
>>
>
>That's fine, but as I said in my off-list notes to you, we're putting
>this on a timer.  When the other documents are ready and the working
>group is otherwise done, we will close the working group without this
>one, unless it's made some useful progress before that.
>  
>
Indeed. In fact, I might be closing the WG before approved MORG drafts 
are published. At least I intend to close it before my Apps AD term ends 
in 2 months time.

>Also, this will likely go to Experimental (rather than Standards
>Track), owing to lack of real consensus on it.  That's fine, and if
>you can get the time to move it forward I'm happy with that.  So don't
>let this put you off.  But we do need to move it ahead within
>someone's lifetime.
>  
>
+1.



From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Thu Jan  6 12:08:08 2011
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Subject: Re: [MORG] Support for PARTIAL return option when FUZZY+ESORT are advertised, but not CONTEXT=*
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Dave Cridland wrote:

> On Sun Dec 19 12:31:29 2010, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> During discussion of the document with IESG the following question  
>> came up:
>>
>> Should the PARTIAL return option be support when the server  supports 
>> both FUZZY and ESORT extensions, but not CONTEXT=*?  Currently 
>> PARTIAL is defined as a part of  CONTEXT=SEARCH/CONTEXT=SORT. The 
>> argument for allowing PARTIAL with  fuzzy searches is that fuzzy 
>> searches can return many results, so  clients should be encouraged to 
>> use PARTIAL return option. However  it is much easier for servers to 
>> just implement PARTIAL without  implementing the rest of 
>> CONTEXT=SEARCH/CONTEXT=SORT.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>
> It's a chunk of syntax, I've no particular feelings on how best to  
> signal it's supported, so this would be fine by me.

After reading Barry's response and thinking more about this, I would 
like to keep things as they are.

If people have time and energy, we can revise various documents in the 
future to redefine capabilities advertised for various SEARCH related 
pieces. In the meantime I think what we have now is good enough.



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On 12/27/10 17:58, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> I want to update. But I want to update WITH RUNNING CODE, and I still
> don't have an updated implementation.
>=20
> (The many drafts that go forward without running code tire me.)

Hi, I'm not sure how relevant it is, but I've added support for
THREAD=3DREFS to my Qt-based IMAP client called Trojita [1]. Given that
server-side support has been present at least in Dovecot for some time
already, I suspect this isn't much important, but I'm sharing that
information anyway.

With kind regards,
Jan

[1] http://trojita.flaska.net/


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From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Thu Jan  6 12:18:30 2011
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Jan Kundr=C3=A1t wrote:

>On 12/27/10 17:58, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> =20
>
>>I want to update. But I want to update WITH RUNNING CODE, and I still
>>don't have an updated implementation.
>>
>>(The many drafts that go forward without running code tire me.)
>>   =20
>>
>Hi, I'm not sure how relevant it is, but I've added support for
>THREAD=3DREFS to my Qt-based IMAP client called Trojita [1]. Given that
>server-side support has been present at least in Dovecot for some time
>already, I suspect this isn't much important, but I'm sharing that
>information anyway.
> =20
>
Sounds great. Which version of the draft have you implemented and which=20
features from it do you use?

>With kind regards,
>Jan
>
>[1] http://trojita.flaska.net/
>


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On 01/06/11 21:19, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> Sounds great. Which version of the draft have you implemented and which=

> features from it do you use?

I was working with draft-ietf-morg-inthread-01 [1] and implemented just
the THREAD=3DREFS command. This was the first threading variant to be
included in Trojita (I didn't consider THREAD=3DREFERENCES or
ORDEREDSUBJECT to be worth the work), hence my hesitation about the
importance of this implementation.

I do not have any plans to implement client-side threading in near
future, which is why I don't expect to use/need SEARCH=3DINTHREAD any tim=
e
soon.

Cheers,
Jan

[1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-morg-inthread-01


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On 01/06/11 21:39, Mark Crispin wrote:
> Considering that THREAD=3DREFERENCES and THREAD=3DORDEREDSUBJECT are th=
e only
> forms of threading that many servers will ever implement, this seems to=
 be
> a rather unfortunate choice.

I'm aware of the fact that THREAD=3DREFS is still in very early stages of=

adoption. However, the other threading methods would require quite heavy
postprocessing on the client side in order to be usable, at least
according to my metric -- I prefer not to have unrelated messages with
the same subject merged into one thread. An extra walk on all envelopes
to sort threads by date of recent arrivals is not worth it in my book,
either.

So the situation right now is either server-side threading by
THREAD=3DREFS, or no threading at all. If/when I implement threading whic=
h
doesn't require this extension, it will likely work by requesting
References/In-Reply-To headers and working on them.

Best regards,
Jan


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From iesg-secretary@ietf.org  Fri Jan  7 09:25:36 2011
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Subject: [MORG] Protocol Action: 'IMAP4 Extension for Fuzzy Search' to Proposed	Standard (draft-ietf-morg-fuzzy-search-03.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'IMAP4 Extension for Fuzzy Search'
  (draft-ietf-morg-fuzzy-search-03.txt) as a Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the Message Organization Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Alexey Melnikov and Peter Saint-Andre.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-morg-fuzzy-search/



Technical Summary

   This document describes an IMAP protocol extension enabling servers to
   perform searches with inexact matching and assigning relevancy scores
   for matched messages.  This allows more flexible searching, as well as
   optimization in server processing.

Working Group Summary 

   One working group participant thinks there are too many IMAP
   extensions already, and we don't need this one.  That view has been
   considered, but several working group participants plan to implement
   this, and some already have.  There is broad agreement in the working
   group that this extension has value.

Document Quality 

   At least two working group participants have implemented this,
   and others have said they plan to.  Many working group
   participants have reviewed and discussed it; none merit special
   mention.

Personnel

   Barry Leiba is the document shepherd. Alexey Melnikov is the 
   Responsible Area Director.

RFC Editor Note

Please add the following paragraph at the end of section 3:

  Fuzzy search algorithms might change, or the results of the algorithms
  might be different from search to search, so that fuzzy searches with
  the same parameters might give different results at different times, for
  different users, or both.  For example, a fuzzy search might adapt to a
  user's search habits in an attempt to give more relevant results (in a
  "learning" manner). Such differences can also occur because of
  operational decisions, such as load balancing.  Clients asking for
  "fuzzy" really are requesting search results in a not necessarily
  deterministic way, and need to give the user appropriate warning about that.

In Section 4, please update the 2nd line of the example to read:

OLD:

   S: * ESEARCH (TAG "B2") ALL 1,5,10 RELEVANCY (4 99 42)

NEW:
   S: * ESEARCH (TAG "B1") ALL 1,5,10 RELEVANCY (4 99 42)

(i.e. the TAG value should be "B1", not "B2")


Please rename the title of the section 6 to read:

OLD:
6.  Extensions to SORT
NEW
6.  Extensions to SORT and SEARCH


In Section 6, please replace the 6th paragraph to read:

OLD:
  To limit the number of returned messages, use the PARTIAL return
  option.  For example this returns the 10 most relevant messages:

NEW:
  Furthermore, if the server advertises the CONTEXT=SORT (or CONTEXT=SEARCH)
  capability, then the client can limit the number of returned messages to a SORT (or a
  SEARCH) by using the PARTIAL return option.  For example this returns
  the 10 most relevant messages:

In Section 8, 1st paragraph:

OLD:
   Implementation of this extension might enable a denial-of-service
   attack if the implementation isn't careful to prevent them. Fuzzy
   search engines are often complex with non-obvious disk space, memory
   and/or CPU usage patterns.  Implementors should test at least the
   behavior of large messages that contain very long words and/or unique
   random strings.  Also very long search keys might cause excessive
   memory or CPU usage.

NEW:
   Implementation of this extension might enable denial-of-service
   attacks against server resources.  Servers MAY limit the resources that
   a single search (or a single user) may use. Additionally, implementors
   should be aware of the following: Fuzzy
   search engines are often complex with non-obvious disk space, memory
   and/or CPU usage patterns.  Server implementors should at least test the
   fuzzy-search behavior with large messages that contain very long words
   and/or unique random strings. Also very long search keys might cause
   excessive memory or CPU usage.

From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org  Mon Jan 10 12:45:03 2011
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Subject: [MORG] I-D Action:draft-ietf-morg-multimailbox-search-05.txt
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Message Organization Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : IMAP4 Multimailbox SEARCH Extension
	Author(s)       : B. Leiba, A. Melnikov
	Filename        : draft-ietf-morg-multimailbox-search-05.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2011-01-10

The IMAP4 specification allows the searching only of the selected
mailbox.  A user often wants to search multiple mailboxes, and a
client that wishes to support this must issue a series of SELECT and
SEARCH commands, waiting for each to complete before moving on to the
next.  This extension allows a client to search multiple mailboxes
with one command, limiting the round-trips and waiting for various
searches to complete, and not requiring disruption of the currently
selected mailbox.  This also uses MAILBOX and TAG fields in ESEARCH
responses, allowing a client to pipeline the searches if it chooses.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:45 PM,  <Internet-Drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Message Organization Working Group of th=
e IETF.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : IMAP4 Multimailbox SEARCH Exte=
nsion
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 : B. Leiba, A. Melnikov
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-ietf-morg-multimailbox-sea=
rch-05.txt
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Pages =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : 10
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Date =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: 2011-01-10
>
> The IMAP4 specification allows the searching only of the selected
> mailbox. =A0A user often wants to search multiple mailboxes, and a
> client that wishes to support this must issue a series of SELECT and
> SEARCH commands, waiting for each to complete before moving on to the
> next. =A0This extension allows a client to search multiple mailboxes
> with one command, limiting the round-trips and waiting for various
> searches to complete, and not requiring disruption of the currently
> selected mailbox. =A0This also uses MAILBOX and TAG fields in ESEARCH
> responses, allowing a client to pipeline the searches if it chooses.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-morg-multimailbox-search-0=
5.txt

Alexey and I believe that this version is ready for last call.  Will
the (other) chairs please initiate WGLC on this version as soon as
possible?

Two things to note:

1. We have resolved the open issues in the document, and we think it's
now complete.

2. We have changed the target status of this from standards track to
experimental.  We think there isn't strong enough consensus to go for
standards track, given the possible interactions with other
extensions.

Barry

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Thu Jan 13 09:55:12 2011
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On 1/10/11 2:37 PM, Barry Leiba wrote:

> 2. We have changed the target status of this from standards track to
> experimental.  We think there isn't strong enough consensus to go for
> standards track, given the possible interactions with other
> extensions.

That seems reasonable. As the responsible AD for this document, I've
updated the datatracker accordingly.

Peter

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From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com  Thu Jan 13 11:48:26 2011
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Subject: Re: [MORG] draft-ietf-morg-multimailbox-search-05
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> That seems reasonable. As the responsible AD for this document, I've
> updated the datatracker accordingly.

Thanks, Peter.

To my co-chairs: Will one of you please officially start a WGLC on
this document now?

Barry

From tss@iki.fi  Fri Jan 14 06:52:02 2011
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From: Timo Sirainen <tss@iki.fi>
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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 16:54:22 +0200
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To: morg <morg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MORG] draft-ietf-morg-multimailbox-search-05 - WGLC
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Hi group,

>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>> This draft is a work item of the Message Organization Working Group =
of the IETF.
>>=20
>>        Title           : IMAP4 Multimailbox SEARCH Extension
>>        Author(s)       : B. Leiba, A. Melnikov
>>        Filename        : draft-ietf-morg-multimailbox-search-05.txt
>>        Pages           : 10
>>        Date            : 2011-01-10
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-morg-multimailbox-search-05=
.txt

This message starts working-group last call on this document.  Please =
review this version of the draft, even if you have reviewed a previous =
version, and post comments by 4 Feb.  Post your comments as a reply to =
this message, and please also respond if you think the document is ready =
for publication -- we need confirmation, as well as issues.

- Timo, morg co-chair


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Subject: Re: [MORG] draft-ietf-morg-multimailbox-search-05 - WGLC
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We're halfway through the WGLC period, and have had no comments.
Please, let's get at least two or three reviews of this version, and
confirm (or refute) that it's ready to go.

Barry

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Timo Sirainen <tss@iki.fi> wrote:
> Hi group,
>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire=
ctories.
>>> This draft is a work item of the Message Organization Working Group of =
the IETF.
>>>
>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : IMAP4 Multimailbox SEARCH Ex=
tension
>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 : B. Leiba, A. Melnikov
>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-ietf-morg-multimailbox-s=
earch-05.txt
>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Pages =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : 10
>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Date =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: 2011-01-10
>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-morg-multimailbox-search=
-05.txt
>
> This message starts working-group last call on this document. =A0Please r=
eview this version of the draft, even if you have reviewed a previous versi=
on, and post comments by 4 Feb. =A0Post your comments as a reply to this me=
ssage, and please also respond if you think the document is ready for publi=
cation -- we need confirmation, as well as issues.
>
> - Timo, morg co-chair
>
