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Loa,

I support this.

Matthew 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org 
> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson
> Sent: 29 December 2008 14:47
> To: MEAD team
> Subject: [Mpls-interop] poll for 
> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt as amead team document
> 
> All,
> 
> we have a proposal from the authors of
> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt to include it as a 
> document that is coordinated by the the MEAD team.
> 
> Please respond (positive or negative) to this before Jan 7.
> 
> /Loa
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> Loa Andersson                         email: loa.andersson@redback.com
> Sr Strategy and Standards Manager            loa@pi.nu
> Redback Networks                      phone: +46 8 632 77 14
> An Ericsson Company
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> 
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Loa, Malcolm -

Just a few details I'd like to understand ...

To change the flow chart according to Adrian's suggestion, steps 10  
and 12 should be "ITU-T SG and Question review" vs "ad hoc."

- Note that it is unclear when or why some draft would follow step 1  
(WG process) or 2 (MEAD team). Is this a WG chair choice or author  
choice?

- If a document is made a MEAD team doc can it be rejected? Or does it  
have to be rejected via the WG process?

- When do the rules of the MPLS change process kick in? Should we  
overlay them here?

- Would you like the routing directorate to also review the docs as a  
step in the process before req to pub?



-DWard

On Dec 30, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote:

> Loa,
>
> I suspect there should be a difference between "ITU-T ad hoc" input  
> and "ITU-T" review.
>
> In early stages of drafting, we might ask for input from the ITU-T  
> ad hoc group.
>
> But when we ask for a formal review, we are asking the ITU-T. How  
> the ITU-T decides to handle this review (for example, on the ad hoc  
> group's mailing list, on a particular Question's mail exploder, or  
> at a face-to-face meeting) is not our concern.
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.nu>
> To: "MEAD team" <mpls-interop@ietf.org>; "Malcolm Betts" <betts01@nortel.com 
> >; "Russ Housley" <housley@vigilsec.com>; "Olaf M. Kolkman" <olaf@NLnetLabs.nl 
> >
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 3:31 PM
> Subject: [Mpls-interop] mpls-tp document flow chart - first iteration
>
>
>> All,
>>
>> In geneva Malcolm and I promised to come up with a mpls-tp document
>> flow chart as a reference for SG15.
>>
>> This is how I think things should work, but as always comments are
>> welcome.
>>
>> I looks a bit complicated, but it all comes down to that we keep
>> SG15 as informed as possible.
>>
>> /Loa
>>
>> -- 
>>
>>
>> Loa Andersson                         email:  
>> loa.andersson@redback.com
>> Sr Strategy and Standards Manager            loa@pi.nu
>> Redback Networks                      phone: +46 8 632 77 14
>> An Ericsson Company
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop

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Dave,

David Ward wrote:
> Loa, Malcolm -
> 
> Just a few details I'd like to understand ...
> 
> To change the flow chart according to Adrian's suggestion, steps 10 and
> 12 should be "ITU-T SG and Question review" vs "ad hoc."

tend to agree - what shows here is that what we need to get the
expedited SG and Q review we should, according to JWT agreement,
notify the ad hoc team that is in charge of getting the correct
ITU-T review done.

I will changed step 10 and 12 as above in the chart and the legend pages
as follows:

(10) Every time a review is initiated by a working group the appropriate
     ITU-T SG and Q's will be notified by a mail to the MPLS-TP ad hoc
     team.
(11) When a document is deemed to mature enough a working group last
     call is initiated, at this time
(12) a request for review is sent the appropriate ITU-T SG and Q's
     will be notified by a mail to the MPLS-TP ad hoc team.
     Note that this request is different from any other notifications
     sent to the MPLS-TP ad hoc team, for this request for comments
     the MPLS-TP ad hoc team is required to organize the ITU-T SG
     and Question review in such a way that a response by correspondence
     is response within the period of working group last call.
> 
> - Note that it is unclear when or why some draft would follow step 1 (WG
> process) or 2 (MEAD team). Is this a WG chair choice or author choice?

I think that according to IETF process anyone could write a document
and send it to a working group.
> 
> - If a document is made a MEAD team doc can it be rejected? 

Of course it can be rejected, bu we need to motivate it. But there is
nothing that stops the authors from resending it to a working group. End
running wg decisions is generally not a good idea, but is allowed by
process.

> Or does it
> have to be rejected via the WG process?

this is an alternative, but would imply a discord between the MEAD team
and the wg, I hope that this won't happen
> 
> - When do the rules of the MPLS change process kick in? Should we
> overlay them here?

a good question - my take is that we fulfilled the requirements
of the MPLS change process by participating in the JWT decision.
I understand that we would be in deep shit if anyone would want to
test this.

What I see happen is that we we are doing:

- requirments
- frameworks
- solutions

this is the essence of the MPLS change process

> 
> - Would you like the routing directorate to also review the docs as a
> step in the process before req to pub?

no - I'd like to have a routing directorate review as part of
the process that is triggered when the publication is
requested - but ADs need to decide on this part of the process :)
I don't want the rtg dir involved in the wg process as a mandatory
step, but want the chairs/wg have the option to ask for such a review
> 
> 
> 
> -DWard
> 
> On Dec 30, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> 
>> Loa,
>>
>> I suspect there should be a difference between "ITU-T ad hoc" input
>> and "ITU-T" review.
>>
>> In early stages of drafting, we might ask for input from the ITU-T ad
>> hoc group.
>>
>> But when we ask for a formal review, we are asking the ITU-T. How the
>> ITU-T decides to handle this review (for example, on the ad hoc
>> group's mailing list, on a particular Question's mail exploder, or at
>> a face-to-face meeting) is not our concern.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.nu>
>> To: "MEAD team" <mpls-interop@ietf.org>; "Malcolm Betts"
>> <betts01@nortel.com>; "Russ Housley" <housley@vigilsec.com>; "Olaf M.
>> Kolkman" <olaf@NLnetLabs.nl>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 3:31 PM
>> Subject: [Mpls-interop] mpls-tp document flow chart - first iteration
>>
>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> In geneva Malcolm and I promised to come up with a mpls-tp document
>>> flow chart as a reference for SG15.
>>>
>>> This is how I think things should work, but as always comments are
>>> welcome.
>>>
>>> I looks a bit complicated, but it all comes down to that we keep
>>> SG15 as informed as possible.
>>>
>>> /Loa
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>>
>>> Loa Andersson                         email: loa.andersson@redback.com
>>> Sr Strategy and Standards Manager            loa@pi.nu
>>> Redback Networks                      phone: +46 8 632 77 14
>>> An Ericsson Company
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> 


-- 


Loa Andersson                         email: loa.andersson@redback.com
Sr Strategy and Standards Manager            loa@pi.nu
Redback Networks                      phone: +46 8 632 77 14
An Ericsson Company
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Message-ID: <495E4C43.9050302@pi.nu>
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 18:17:55 +0100
From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Cc: "Olaf M. Kolkman" <olaf@NLnetLabs.nl>, MEAD team <mpls-interop@ietf.org>,
	Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: [Mpls-interop] mpls-tp document flow chart - second iteration
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------080601070104060106000004
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All,

I've have updated the flow chart as suggested; more comments are
welcome.

/Loa
-- 


Loa Andersson                         email: loa.andersson@redback.com
Sr Strategy and Standards Manager            loa@pi.nu
Redback Networks                      phone: +46 8 632 77 14
An Ericsson Company

--------------080601070104060106000004
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CgAAAP7/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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From: David Ward <dward@cisco.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Cc: "Olaf M. Kolkman" <olaf@NLnetLabs.nl>, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>,
	MEAD team <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] mpls-tp document flow chart - first iteration
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Loa, Malcolm -

One thing we haven't formalized  or discussed is the corresponding  
flow if a contribution is taken to the ITU. I'd like to see that  
flowchart formalized as well. I realize a contribution itself isn't a  
binding doc but, once the work item is taken on by a question, it is  
then official. We've gotten ourselves into a bit of a knot in December  
over various contributions.

Given we are reviewing all things with the ad-hoc group before they  
become WG items, can we have the same of all contributions in the ITU-T?

Here is the essence ... can the ad-hoc block a draft from becoming a  
WG doc? Can the MEAD block a contribution from becoming a question  
work item? My desire would be "Yes" to both.

Thanks

-DWard


On Jan 2, 2009, at 11:09 AM, Loa Andersson wrote:

> Dave,
>
> David Ward wrote:
>> Loa, Malcolm -
>>
>> Just a few details I'd like to understand ...
>>
>> To change the flow chart according to Adrian's suggestion, steps 10  
>> and
>> 12 should be "ITU-T SG and Question review" vs "ad hoc."
>
> tend to agree - what shows here is that what we need to get the
> expedited SG and Q review we should, according to JWT agreement,
> notify the ad hoc team that is in charge of getting the correct
> ITU-T review done.
>
> I will changed step 10 and 12 as above in the chart and the legend  
> pages
> as follows:
>
> (10) Every time a review is initiated by a working group the  
> appropriate
>     ITU-T SG and Q's will be notified by a mail to the MPLS-TP ad hoc
>     team.
> (11) When a document is deemed to mature enough a working group last
>     call is initiated, at this time
> (12) a request for review is sent the appropriate ITU-T SG and Q's
>     will be notified by a mail to the MPLS-TP ad hoc team.
>     Note that this request is different from any other notifications
>     sent to the MPLS-TP ad hoc team, for this request for comments
>     the MPLS-TP ad hoc team is required to organize the ITU-T SG
>     and Question review in such a way that a response by  
> correspondence
>     is response within the period of working group last call.
>>
>> - Note that it is unclear when or why some draft would follow step  
>> 1 (WG
>> process) or 2 (MEAD team). Is this a WG chair choice or author  
>> choice?
>
> I think that according to IETF process anyone could write a document
> and send it to a working group.
>>
>> - If a document is made a MEAD team doc can it be rejected?
>
> Of course it can be rejected, bu we need to motivate it. But there is
> nothing that stops the authors from resending it to a working group.  
> End
> running wg decisions is generally not a good idea, but is allowed by
> process.
>
>> Or does it
>> have to be rejected via the WG process?
>
> this is an alternative, but would imply a discord between the MEAD  
> team
> and the wg, I hope that this won't happen
>>
>> - When do the rules of the MPLS change process kick in? Should we
>> overlay them here?
>
> a good question - my take is that we fulfilled the requirements
> of the MPLS change process by participating in the JWT decision.
> I understand that we would be in deep shit if anyone would want to
> test this.
>
> What I see happen is that we we are doing:
>
> - requirments
> - frameworks
> - solutions
>
> this is the essence of the MPLS change process
>
>>
>> - Would you like the routing directorate to also review the docs as a
>> step in the process before req to pub?
>
> no - I'd like to have a routing directorate review as part of
> the process that is triggered when the publication is
> requested - but ADs need to decide on this part of the process :)
> I don't want the rtg dir involved in the wg process as a mandatory
> step, but want the chairs/wg have the option to ask for such a review
>>
>>
>>
>> -DWard
>>
>> On Dec 30, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>>
>>> Loa,
>>>
>>> I suspect there should be a difference between "ITU-T ad hoc" input
>>> and "ITU-T" review.
>>>
>>> In early stages of drafting, we might ask for input from the ITU-T  
>>> ad
>>> hoc group.
>>>
>>> But when we ask for a formal review, we are asking the ITU-T. How  
>>> the
>>> ITU-T decides to handle this review (for example, on the ad hoc
>>> group's mailing list, on a particular Question's mail exploder, or  
>>> at
>>> a face-to-face meeting) is not our concern.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Adrian
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.nu>
>>> To: "MEAD team" <mpls-interop@ietf.org>; "Malcolm Betts"
>>> <betts01@nortel.com>; "Russ Housley" <housley@vigilsec.com>; "Olaf  
>>> M.
>>> Kolkman" <olaf@NLnetLabs.nl>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 3:31 PM
>>> Subject: [Mpls-interop] mpls-tp document flow chart - first  
>>> iteration
>>>
>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> In geneva Malcolm and I promised to come up with a mpls-tp document
>>>> flow chart as a reference for SG15.
>>>>
>>>> This is how I think things should work, but as always comments are
>>>> welcome.
>>>>
>>>> I looks a bit complicated, but it all comes down to that we keep
>>>> SG15 as informed as possible.
>>>>
>>>> /Loa
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Loa Andersson                         email: loa.andersson@redback.com
>>>> Sr Strategy and Standards Manager            loa@pi.nu
>>>> Redback Networks                      phone: +46 8 632 77 14
>>>> An Ericsson Company
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
>
> Loa Andersson                         email: loa.andersson@redback.com
> Sr Strategy and Standards Manager            loa@pi.nu
> Redback Networks                      phone: +46 8 632 77 14
> An Ericsson Company

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From: "VIGOUREUX MARTIN" <Martin.Vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.nu>, "MEAD team" <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] poll for draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt
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all,

my previous reply bounced.
I support the proposal.

regards,
martin


-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Loa Andersson
Sent: Mon 12/29/2008 3:46 PM
To: MEAD team
Subject: [Mpls-interop] poll for draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt =
as amead team document
=20
All,

we have a proposal from the authors of
draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt to include it as a document
that is coordinated by the the MEAD team.

Please respond (positive or negative) to this before Jan 7.

/Loa

--=20


Loa Andersson                         email: loa.andersson@redback.com
Sr Strategy and Standards Manager            loa@pi.nu
Redback Networks                      phone: +46 8 632 77 14
An Ericsson Company
_______________________________________________
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>all,<BR>
<BR>
my previous reply bounced.<BR>
I support the proposal.<BR>
<BR>
regards,<BR>
martin<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Loa Andersson<BR>
Sent: Mon 12/29/2008 3:46 PM<BR>
To: MEAD team<BR>
Subject: [Mpls-interop] poll for draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt =
as amead team document<BR>
<BR>
All,<BR>
<BR>
we have a proposal from the authors of<BR>
draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt to include it as a document<BR>
that is coordinated by the the MEAD team.<BR>
<BR>
Please respond (positive or negative) to this before Jan 7.<BR>
<BR>
/Loa<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loa =
Andersson&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; email: loa.andersson@redback.com<BR>
Sr Strategy and Standards =
Manager&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 loa@pi.nu<BR>
Redback =
Networks&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; phone: +46 =
8 632 77 14<BR>
An Ericsson Company<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
Mpls-interop mailing list<BR>
Mpls-interop@ietf.org<BR>
<A =
HREF=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop">https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop</A><BR>
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Support.

...George


On 12/29/08 9:46 AM, "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.nu> wrote:

> All,
> 
> we have a proposal from the authors of
> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt to include it as a document
> that is coordinated by the the MEAD team.
> 
> Please respond (positive or negative) to this before Jan 7.
> 
> /Loa
> 
> --
> 
> 
> Loa Andersson                         email: loa.andersson@redback.com
> Sr Strategy and Standards Manager            loa@pi.nu
> Redback Networks                      phone: +46 8 632 77 14
> An Ericsson Company
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> 


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<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:14pt'>Support=
.<BR>
<BR>
...George<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 12/29/08 9:46 AM, &quot;Loa Andersson&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"loa@pi.nu">loa@=
pi.nu</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:14pt'>All,<BR>
<BR>
we have a proposal from the authors of<BR>
draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt to include it as a document<BR>
that is coordinated by the the MEAD team.<BR>
<BR>
Please respond (positive or negative) to this before Jan 7.<BR>
<BR>
/Loa<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loa Andersson &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;email: <a href=3D"loa.andersson@redback.com">loa.andersson@redback.com<=
/a><BR>
Sr Strategy and Standards Manager &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a><BR>
Redback Networks &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;phone: +=
46 8 632 77 14<BR>
An Ericsson Company<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
Mpls-interop mailing list<BR>
<a href=3D"Mpls-interop@ietf.org">Mpls-interop@ietf.org</a><BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop">https://www.ie=
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References: <4958E2C6.7030500@pi.nu>
From: "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
To: "ext Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.nu>
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	Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] poll for draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt
	as amead team document
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Hi,

I support the acceptance of the document as a MEAD team document.

Regarding the review process, I propose first to review, discuss and
agree on the MPLS-TP OAM analysis document.=20

Best regards,

Nurit

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Loa Andersson
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 16:47
To: MEAD team
Subject: [Mpls-interop] poll for draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt
as amead team document

=20

All,

=20

we have a proposal from the authors of

draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt to include it as a document

that is coordinated by the the MEAD team.

=20

Please respond (positive or negative) to this before Jan 7.

=20

/Loa

=20

--=20

=20

=20

Loa Andersson                         email: loa.andersson@redback.com

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager            loa@pi.nu

Redback Networks                      phone: +46 8 632 77 14

An Ericsson Company

_______________________________________________

Mpls-interop mailing list

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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1 dir=3DRTL>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I support the acceptance of the document as a =
MEAD
team document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Regarding the review process, I propose first =
to review,
discuss and agree on the MPLS-TP OAM analysis document. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Nurit<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of ext Loa Andersson<br>
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 16:47<br>
To: MEAD team<br>
Subject: [Mpls-interop] poll for draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt =
as amead
team document</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>we have a proposal from the authors =
of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt to =
include it as
a document<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>that is coordinated by the the MEAD =
team.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Please respond (positive or negative) to this =
before
Jan 7.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>/Loa<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Loa
Andersson&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;
email: loa.andersson@redback.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Sr Strategy and Standards
Manager&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=

loa@pi.nu<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Redback =
Networks&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
phone: +46 8 632 77 14<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>An Ericsson =
Company<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>______________________________________________=
_<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Mpls-interop mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Mpls-interop@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-int=
erop<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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_______________________________________________
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Mpls-interop@ietf.org
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--===============1174441022==--


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Support!
./
Lieven

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson
Sent: 29 December 2008 15:47
To: MEAD team
Subject: [Mpls-interop] poll for draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt as a mead team document

All,

we have a proposal from the authors of
draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt to include it as a document
that is coordinated by the the MEAD team.

Please respond (positive or negative) to this before Jan 7.

/Loa

-- 


Loa Andersson                         email: loa.andersson@redback.com
Sr Strategy and Standards Manager            loa@pi.nu
Redback Networks                      phone: +46 8 632 77 14
An Ericsson Company
_______________________________________________
Mpls-interop mailing list
Mpls-interop@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
_______________________________________________
Mpls-interop mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop


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Dear Mr. Maeda, Mr. Abbas, Mr. van Helvoort, Mr. Betts and Mr. Lam

Please find a liaison on Working Group Last Call on the MPLS-TP
Internet Draft “MPLS Generic Associated Channel”

Loa Andersson
Chair of the MEAD Team.

-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Redback Networks                      phone:  +46 8 632 77 14
An Ericsson company
                                       email:  loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu

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From mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Jan  9 06:59:53 2009
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Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:59:31 +0100
From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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To: MEAD team <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
Subject: [Mpls-interop] three liaisons from ITU-T
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All,

we have three liaisons from the SG15 on MPLS-TP issues. I've talked
to Olaf and Russ and agreed that the MEAD team will prepare responses
to all three liaisons.

The liaisons are:

1.
Title: LS24 - Comments on MPLS-TP working group drafts
Submission Date: 2008-12-25
URL of the IETF Web page:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=494
Please reply by 2009-01-31
From: Greg Jones(ITU-T SG 15) <tsbsg15@itu.int>
To: IETF MPLS, PWE WGs (Info: IETF MEAD

For: Action

2.
Title: LS26 - Cooperation Between IETF and ITU-T on the Development of
MPLS-TP
Submission Date: 2008-12-25
URL of the IETF Web page:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=492
From: Greg Jones(ITU-T SG 15) <tsbsg15@itu.int>
To: IETF, IAB(chair@ietf.org,iab-chair@iab.org)

For: Information

3.
Title: LS28 - Generic Associated Channel (G-ACH) Requirement to Provide
a Signalling Communication Channel (SCC) and a Management Communication
Channel (MCC) for MPLS-TP
Submission Date: 2008-12-25
URL of the IETF Web page:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=491
Please reply by 2009-05-18
From: Greg Jones(ITU-T SG 15) <tsbsg15@itu.int>
To: IETF MPLS WG Co Chairs (Info: CCAMP WG Co Chairs, MEAD

For: Action

For  LS24 Ben hs already done most of the job, what we need to do
is to spin the responses from Bens mail in to liaison format. Agree
on the response, confirm this by the MPLS WG and PWE3 chairs and send
it together with with the updated draft.

I need a volunteer to compile the actual liaison document.

LS26
I will write the response, have it agreed by the MEAD team and approved
by Russ and Olaf.

A few things I will stress:

- our satisfaction that the T-MPLS work is finally stopped
- that we still need a date when all the requirements from
   the ITU-T is at hand
- a document processing chart
- that most ITU-T work should be by reference and *not* by
   producing new text, at the may deviate from existing IETF
   documents


LS28

I need a volunteer to write a draft response. When we have the draft
response we'll run it through the same type of process as for the other
liaisons.

/Loa
-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Redback Networks                      phone:  +46 8 632 77 14
Ericsson ///
                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu


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From: Ben Niven-Jenkins <benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com>
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	MEAD team <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
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Loa,

On 09/01/2009 14:59, "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.nu> wrote:
> 1.
> Title: LS24 - Comments on MPLS-TP working group drafts
> Submission Date: 2008-12-25
> URL of the IETF Web page:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=494
> Please reply by 2009-01-31
> From: Greg Jones(ITU-T SG 15) <tsbsg15@itu.int>
> To: IETF MPLS, PWE WGs (Info: IETF MEAD
> 
> For: Action
> 
> 
> For  LS24 Ben hs already done most of the job, what we need to do
> is to spin the responses from Bens mail in to liaison format. Agree
> on the response, confirm this by the MPLS WG and PWE3 chairs and send
> it together with with the updated draft.
> 
> I need a volunteer to compile the actual liaison document.

I thought you'd already volunteered me but in any case I'm happy to do it.

Ben

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All,

we have support to adopt the draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback as a
MEAD team draft, at the same time we welcome Sami as a member of the
MEAD team.

/Loa
-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu



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Support (sorry missed it earlier), and welcome, Sami!
Luyuan 

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson
Sent: 10 January 2009 17:01
To: MEAD team; Sami Boutros (sboutros)
Subject: [Mpls-interop] draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback accepted as a
MEADteam draft

All,

we have support to adopt the draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback as a MEAD
team draft, at the same time we welcome Sami as a member of the MEAD
team.

/Loa
-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:
loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu



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From mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Jan 13 04:16:45 2009
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Hi Adrian,

You wondered:

> Is anyone familiar with Q9/15's work on Generic Protection Schemes in
> G.808 etc.?

Yes, I am (because I am thew editor... as you could have seen on
the Q9 homepage, or SG15 list of editors)

G.808.1 is for the generic description of linear protection
methodologies.
G.808.2 is for the generic description of ring protection
methodologies.

Each technology has dedicated recommendations for the
particular protection mechanisms.

> Does anyone know whether the ITU-T has any expectations
> about their work with regard to MPLS-TP?

Like protection recommendations for carrier ethernet, i.e
G.8031 (Linear) and G.8032 (Ring), Q9 has already developed
and published G.8131 (Linear) and was working on G.8132 (Ring)
-- of which the ring requirements were liaised to IETF.

According to the JWT agreement work on the latter two is
put on hold.

Regards, Huub.

-- 
================================================================
Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else...
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Hi Loa

You wrote:

> we have a proposal from the authors of
> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt to include it as a document
> that is coordinated by the the MEAD team.
> 
> Please respond (positive or negative) to this before Jan 7.

I support this on the condition that it has a lower priority
as the OAM analysis draft. Solution can only be provided after
the analysis is finished.

Regards, Huub.

-- 
================================================================
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Huub,

thanks!

I agree with your priority statement if it addresses
the scheduling (meaning the order in which we will e.g. progress
the drafts) within MEAD team and the wg processes, but I don't
agree if priority means that one is more important than the
other, they simply are on different development curves and
addresses different problems :) .

/Loa

Huub van Helvoort wrote:
> Hi Loa
> 
> You wrote:
> 
>> we have a proposal from the authors of
>> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback-00.txt to include it as a document
>> that is coordinated by the the MEAD team.
>>
>> Please respond (positive or negative) to this before Jan 7.
> 
> I support this on the condition that it has a lower priority
> as the OAM analysis draft. Solution can only be provided after
> the analysis is finished.
> 
> Regards, Huub.
> 

-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu



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Hi Huub,

Yes. And thank you.

But perhaps my question was too subtle?

I am interested to know whether there are expectations that the generic 
descriptions will be applicable to MPLS-TP. In other words, I want to know 
whether the MPLS-TP design team needs to focus on G.808.1 and .2 in the 
knowledge that those Recommendations will drive MPLS-TP requirements, or 
whether we can be more relaxed and say that requirements for MPLS-TP 
protection schemes will be developed in their own right.

In the case of the former, we have to watch out for MPLS-TP requirements 
being developed "by the back door". In the case of the latter, we would not 
want to hear later that such-and-such is a requirement "because it appears 
in G.808.1 or .2"

A
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Huub van Helvoort" <hhelvoort@chello.nl>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection


> Hi Adrian,
>
> You wondered:
>
>> Is anyone familiar with Q9/15's work on Generic Protection Schemes in
>> G.808 etc.?
>
> Yes, I am (because I am thew editor... as you could have seen on
> the Q9 homepage, or SG15 list of editors)
>
> G.808.1 is for the generic description of linear protection
> methodologies.
> G.808.2 is for the generic description of ring protection
> methodologies.
>
> Each technology has dedicated recommendations for the
> particular protection mechanisms.
>
>> Does anyone know whether the ITU-T has any expectations
>> about their work with regard to MPLS-TP?
>
> Like protection recommendations for carrier ethernet, i.e
> G.8031 (Linear) and G.8032 (Ring), Q9 has already developed
> and published G.8131 (Linear) and was working on G.8132 (Ring)
> -- of which the ring requirements were liaised to IETF.
>
> According to the JWT agreement work on the latter two is
> put on hold.
>
> Regards, Huub.
>
> -- 
> ================================================================
> Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else...
> 

_______________________________________________
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Adrian, since the intent of MPLS-TP is to satisfy (at least) the
requirements of the transport network (as defined by the ITU-T) it would
be prudent for the MPLS-TP design team to use G.808.1 and G.808.2 as a
source of requirements.  I anticipate that the ITU participants on the
design team will assist in distilling these requirements and developing
the text.  This should minimize the comments from the ITU during the
review process.


Malcolm Betts
Nortel Networks
Phone: +1 613 763 7860 (ESN 393)
email: betts01@nortel.com

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:33 AM
To: hhelvoort@chello.nl
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection

Hi Huub,

Yes. And thank you.

But perhaps my question was too subtle?

I am interested to know whether there are expectations that the generic
descriptions will be applicable to MPLS-TP. In other words, I want to
know whether the MPLS-TP design team needs to focus on G.808.1 and .2 in
the knowledge that those Recommendations will drive MPLS-TP
requirements, or whether we can be more relaxed and say that
requirements for MPLS-TP protection schemes will be developed in their
own right.

In the case of the former, we have to watch out for MPLS-TP requirements
being developed "by the back door". In the case of the latter, we would
not want to hear later that such-and-such is a requirement "because it
appears in G.808.1 or .2"

A
----- Original Message -----
From: "Huub van Helvoort" <hhelvoort@chello.nl>
To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection


> Hi Adrian,
>
> You wondered:
>
>> Is anyone familiar with Q9/15's work on Generic Protection Schemes in
>> G.808 etc.?
>
> Yes, I am (because I am thew editor... as you could have seen on
> the Q9 homepage, or SG15 list of editors)
>
> G.808.1 is for the generic description of linear protection
> methodologies.
> G.808.2 is for the generic description of ring protection
> methodologies.
>
> Each technology has dedicated recommendations for the
> particular protection mechanisms.
>
>> Does anyone know whether the ITU-T has any expectations
>> about their work with regard to MPLS-TP?
>
> Like protection recommendations for carrier ethernet, i.e
> G.8031 (Linear) and G.8032 (Ring), Q9 has already developed
> and published G.8131 (Linear) and was working on G.8132 (Ring)
> -- of which the ring requirements were liaised to IETF.
>
> According to the JWT agreement work on the latter two is
> put on hold.
>
> Regards, Huub.
>
> -- 
> ================================================================
> Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else...
> 

_______________________________________________
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Mpls-interop@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
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Malcolm,

We have been gathering protection/restoration requirements since last
fall with Huub's active involvement.  If you think there are
requirements in G.808.1 or G.808.2 that Huub neglected to tell us about,
why are you only now mentioning this?

Thanks,

John 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Malcolm Betts [mailto:betts01@nortel.com] 
>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:43 PM
>To: Adrian Farrel
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>
>Adrian, since the intent of MPLS-TP is to satisfy (at least) 
>the requirements of the transport network (as defined by the 
>ITU-T) it would be prudent for the MPLS-TP design team to use 
>G.808.1 and G.808.2 as a source of requirements.  I anticipate 
>that the ITU participants on the design team will assist in 
>distilling these requirements and developing the text.  This 
>should minimize the comments from the ITU during the review process.
>
>
>Malcolm Betts
>Nortel Networks
>Phone: +1 613 763 7860 (ESN 393)
>email: betts01@nortel.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:33 AM
>To: hhelvoort@chello.nl
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>
>Hi Huub,
>
>Yes. And thank you.
>
>But perhaps my question was too subtle?
>
>I am interested to know whether there are expectations that 
>the generic descriptions will be applicable to MPLS-TP. In 
>other words, I want to know whether the MPLS-TP design team 
>needs to focus on G.808.1 and .2 in the knowledge that those 
>Recommendations will drive MPLS-TP requirements, or whether we 
>can be more relaxed and say that requirements for MPLS-TP 
>protection schemes will be developed in their own right.
>
>In the case of the former, we have to watch out for MPLS-TP 
>requirements being developed "by the back door". In the case 
>of the latter, we would not want to hear later that 
>such-and-such is a requirement "because it appears in G.808.1 or .2"
>
>A
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Huub van Helvoort" <hhelvoort@chello.nl>
>To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
>Cc: <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:16 PM
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>
>
>> Hi Adrian,
>>
>> You wondered:
>>
>>> Is anyone familiar with Q9/15's work on Generic Protection 
>Schemes in
>>> G.808 etc.?
>>
>> Yes, I am (because I am thew editor... as you could have seen on the 
>> Q9 homepage, or SG15 list of editors)
>>
>> G.808.1 is for the generic description of linear protection 
>> methodologies.
>> G.808.2 is for the generic description of ring protection 
>> methodologies.
>>
>> Each technology has dedicated recommendations for the particular 
>> protection mechanisms.
>>
>>> Does anyone know whether the ITU-T has any expectations about their 
>>> work with regard to MPLS-TP?
>>
>> Like protection recommendations for carrier ethernet, i.e
>> G.8031 (Linear) and G.8032 (Ring), Q9 has already developed and 
>> published G.8131 (Linear) and was working on G.8132 (Ring)
>> -- of which the ring requirements were liaised to IETF.
>>
>> According to the JWT agreement work on the latter two is put on hold.
>>
>> Regards, Huub.
>>
>> --
>> ================================================================
>> Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else...
>> 
>
>_______________________________________________
>Mpls-interop mailing list
>Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>,
	"Malcolm Betts" <betts01@nortel.com>
References: <5C522985610A43179A66F564F4612749@your029b8cecfe><496C8616.7080009@chello.nl><854FCC8044444D12BBCEA721A46072C2@your029b8cecfe>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
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To be a little fair to Malcolm (although I don't see why he shouldn't 
suffer) I think I raised the issue.

I saw that there is planned work on the G.808 series and I wondered whether 
there was new work being done to develop generic protection/restoration 
requirements that would also apply to MPLS-TP. If so (it seemed to me), we 
would be seeing the development of new MPLS-TP requirements that were being 
developed without full and open discussion with the MPLS-TP design team.

A
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "Malcolm Betts" <betts01@nortel.com>; "Adrian Farrel" 
<adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection


Malcolm,

We have been gathering protection/restoration requirements since last
fall with Huub's active involvement.  If you think there are
requirements in G.808.1 or G.808.2 that Huub neglected to tell us about,
why are you only now mentioning this?

Thanks,

John

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Malcolm Betts [mailto:betts01@nortel.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:43 PM
>To: Adrian Farrel
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>
>Adrian, since the intent of MPLS-TP is to satisfy (at least)
>the requirements of the transport network (as defined by the
>ITU-T) it would be prudent for the MPLS-TP design team to use
>G.808.1 and G.808.2 as a source of requirements.  I anticipate
>that the ITU participants on the design team will assist in
>distilling these requirements and developing the text.  This
>should minimize the comments from the ITU during the review process.
>
>
>Malcolm Betts
>Nortel Networks
>Phone: +1 613 763 7860 (ESN 393)
>email: betts01@nortel.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:33 AM
>To: hhelvoort@chello.nl
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>
>Hi Huub,
>
>Yes. And thank you.
>
>But perhaps my question was too subtle?
>
>I am interested to know whether there are expectations that
>the generic descriptions will be applicable to MPLS-TP. In
>other words, I want to know whether the MPLS-TP design team
>needs to focus on G.808.1 and .2 in the knowledge that those
>Recommendations will drive MPLS-TP requirements, or whether we
>can be more relaxed and say that requirements for MPLS-TP
>protection schemes will be developed in their own right.
>
>In the case of the former, we have to watch out for MPLS-TP
>requirements being developed "by the back door". In the case
>of the latter, we would not want to hear later that
>such-and-such is a requirement "because it appears in G.808.1 or .2"
>
>A
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Huub van Helvoort" <hhelvoort@chello.nl>
>To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
>Cc: <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:16 PM
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>
>
>> Hi Adrian,
>>
>> You wondered:
>>
>>> Is anyone familiar with Q9/15's work on Generic Protection
>Schemes in
>>> G.808 etc.?
>>
>> Yes, I am (because I am thew editor... as you could have seen on the
>> Q9 homepage, or SG15 list of editors)
>>
>> G.808.1 is for the generic description of linear protection
>> methodologies.
>> G.808.2 is for the generic description of ring protection
>> methodologies.
>>
>> Each technology has dedicated recommendations for the particular
>> protection mechanisms.
>>
>>> Does anyone know whether the ITU-T has any expectations about their
>>> work with regard to MPLS-TP?
>>
>> Like protection recommendations for carrier ethernet, i.e
>> G.8031 (Linear) and G.8032 (Ring), Q9 has already developed and
>> published G.8131 (Linear) and was working on G.8132 (Ring)
>> -- of which the ring requirements were liaised to IETF.
>>
>> According to the JWT agreement work on the latter two is put on hold.
>>
>> Regards, Huub.
>>
>> --
>> ================================================================
>> Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else...
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Mpls-interop mailing list
>Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>_______________________________________________
>Mpls-interop mailing list
>Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>

_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
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Hi Adrian,

You replied:

> To be a little fair to Malcolm (although I don't see why he shouldn't
>  suffer) I think I raised the issue.
> 
> I saw that there is planned work on the G.808 series and I wondered 
> whether there was new work being done to develop generic 
> protection/restoration requirements that would also apply to MPLS-TP.

Because these are generic recommendations they are technology
independent. It is up to the technology specific protection
recommendation to identify one or more of the generic methods
that will be used in that particular technology.
It is not required that ALL generic methods described in G.808.x
are supported in a particular technology.

> If so (it seemed to me), we would be seeing the development of new
> MPLS-TP requirements that were being developed without full and open
> discussion with the MPLS-TP design team.

If there are requirements added they are generic, i.e. technology
independent.

Regards, Huub.


 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: "Drake, John E"
> <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> To: "Malcolm Betts" <betts01@nortel.com>;
> "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <mpls-interop@ietf.org> 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:57 PM Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop]
> ITU-T work on protection
> 
> 
> Malcolm,
> 
> We have been gathering protection/restoration requirements since last
>  fall with Huub's active involvement.  If you think there are 
> requirements in G.808.1 or G.808.2 that Huub neglected to tell us
> about, why are you only now mentioning this?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
 >> From: Malcolm Betts
>> [mailto:betts01@nortel.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:43
>> PM To: Adrian Farrel Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org Subject: Re:
>> [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>> 
>> Adrian, since the intent of MPLS-TP is to satisfy (at least) the
>> requirements of the transport network (as defined by the ITU-T) it
>> would be prudent for the MPLS-TP design team to use G.808.1 and
>> G.808.2 as a source of requirements.  I anticipate that the ITU
>> participants on the design team will assist in distilling these
>> requirements and developing the text.  This should minimize the
>> comments from the ITU during the review process.
>> 
>> 
>> Malcolm Betts Nortel Networks Phone: +1 613 763 7860 (ESN 393) 
>> email: betts01@nortel.com
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
 >> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel 
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:33 AM To: hhelvoort@chello.nl Cc:
>> mpls-interop@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on
>> protection
>> 
>> Hi Huub,
>> 
>> Yes. And thank you.
>> 
>> But perhaps my question was too subtle?
>> 
>> I am interested to know whether there are expectations that the
>> generic descriptions will be applicable to MPLS-TP. In other words,
>> I want to know whether the MPLS-TP design team needs to focus on
>> G.808.1 and .2 in the knowledge that those Recommendations will
>> drive MPLS-TP requirements, or whether we can be more relaxed and
>> say that requirements for MPLS-TP protection schemes will be
>> developed in their own right.
>> 
>> In the case of the former, we have to watch out for MPLS-TP 
>> requirements being developed "by the back door". In the case of the
>> latter, we would not want to hear later that such-and-such is a
>> requirement "because it appears in G.808.1 or .2"
>> 
>> A
 >> ----- Original Message -----
 >> From: "Huub van Helvoort"
>> <hhelvoort@chello.nl> To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc:
>> <mpls-interop@ietf.org> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:16 PM 
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>> 
>> 
>>> Hi Adrian,
>>> 
>>> You wondered:
>>> 
>>>> Is anyone familiar with Q9/15's work on Generic Protection
>> Schemes in
>>>> G.808 etc.?
>>> 
>>> Yes, I am (because I am thew editor... as you could have seen on
>>> the Q9 homepage, or SG15 list of editors)
>>> 
>>> G.808.1 is for the generic description of linear protection 
>>> methodologies. G.808.2 is for the generic description of ring
>>> protection methodologies.
>>> 
>>> Each technology has dedicated recommendations for the particular 
>>> protection mechanisms.
>>> 
>>>> Does anyone know whether the ITU-T has any expectations about
>>>> their work with regard to MPLS-TP?
>>> 
>>> Like protection recommendations for carrier ethernet, i.e G.8031
>>> (Linear) and G.8032 (Ring), Q9 has already developed and 
>>> published G.8131 (Linear) and was working on G.8132 (Ring) -- of
>>> which the ring requirements were liaised to IETF.
>>> 
>>> According to the JWT agreement work on the latter two is put on
>>> hold.
>>> 
>>> Regards, Huub.

-- 
================================================================
Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else...
_______________________________________________
Mpls-interop mailing list
Mpls-interop@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop


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From: "Malcolm Betts" <betts01@nortel.com>
To: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>,
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John, I have not been able to participate in this work.  However, I
think that Huub has probably done a good job in identifying the ITU-T
requirements.  So my assumption on the background for Adrian's question
was can some of the requirements that have been gathered for G.808/.1/2
be discarded, my response is no, at least not without some wider
discussion involving the ITU experts, via the ad hoc and Q9 email lists.


Malcolm Betts
Nortel Networks
Phone: +1 613 763 7860 (ESN 393)
email: betts01@nortel.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:58 PM
To: Betts, Malcolm (CAR:X632); Adrian Farrel
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection

Malcolm,

We have been gathering protection/restoration requirements since last
fall with Huub's active involvement.  If you think there are
requirements in G.808.1 or G.808.2 that Huub neglected to tell us about,
why are you only now mentioning this?

Thanks,

John 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Malcolm Betts [mailto:betts01@nortel.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:43 PM
>To: Adrian Farrel
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>
>Adrian, since the intent of MPLS-TP is to satisfy (at least) the 
>requirements of the transport network (as defined by the
>ITU-T) it would be prudent for the MPLS-TP design team to use
>G.808.1 and G.808.2 as a source of requirements.  I anticipate that the

>ITU participants on the design team will assist in distilling these 
>requirements and developing the text.  This should minimize the 
>comments from the ITU during the review process.
>
>
>Malcolm Betts
>Nortel Networks
>Phone: +1 613 763 7860 (ESN 393)
>email: betts01@nortel.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:33 AM
>To: hhelvoort@chello.nl
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>
>Hi Huub,
>
>Yes. And thank you.
>
>But perhaps my question was too subtle?
>
>I am interested to know whether there are expectations that 
>the generic descriptions will be applicable to MPLS-TP. In 
>other words, I want to know whether the MPLS-TP design team 
>needs to focus on G.808.1 and .2 in the knowledge that those 
>Recommendations will drive MPLS-TP requirements, or whether we 
>can be more relaxed and say that requirements for MPLS-TP 
>protection schemes will be developed in their own right.
>
>In the case of the former, we have to watch out for MPLS-TP 
>requirements being developed "by the back door". In the case 
>of the latter, we would not want to hear later that 
>such-and-such is a requirement "because it appears in G.808.1 or .2"
>
>A
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Huub van Helvoort" <hhelvoort@chello.nl>
>To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
>Cc: <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:16 PM
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>
>
>> Hi Adrian,
>>
>> You wondered:
>>
>>> Is anyone familiar with Q9/15's work on Generic Protection 
>Schemes in
>>> G.808 etc.?
>>
>> Yes, I am (because I am thew editor... as you could have seen on the 
>> Q9 homepage, or SG15 list of editors)
>>
>> G.808.1 is for the generic description of linear protection 
>> methodologies.
>> G.808.2 is for the generic description of ring protection 
>> methodologies.
>>
>> Each technology has dedicated recommendations for the particular 
>> protection mechanisms.
>>
>>> Does anyone know whether the ITU-T has any expectations about their 
>>> work with regard to MPLS-TP?
>>
>> Like protection recommendations for carrier ethernet, i.e
>> G.8031 (Linear) and G.8032 (Ring), Q9 has already developed and 
>> published G.8131 (Linear) and was working on G.8132 (Ring)
>> -- of which the ring requirements were liaised to IETF.
>>
>> According to the JWT agreement work on the latter two is put on hold.
>>
>> Regards, Huub.
>>
>> --
>> ================================================================
>> Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else...
>> 
>
>_______________________________________________
>Mpls-interop mailing list
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From mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Jan 14 05:42:59 2009
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From: "Malcolm Betts" <betts01@nortel.com>
To: <hhelvoort@chello.nl>
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
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Huub, a few points:

Its is possible that the MPLS-TP solutions may define a new method for
the implementation of protection that Q9 may consider including in a
revision to G.808.x

A technology specific Recommendation (or in this case a RFC) is a
reflection of a subset of G.808.x at some point in time before approval
- i.e. we should not attempt a "real time tracking/change on the fly".  

We should rely on the common participants, use of the ITU/IETF email
exploders and as a last resort liaisons to ensure that the appropriate
experts are aware of any changes. 

Any ITU-T Recommendations on protection must be fully aligned with and
reference the appropriate RFCs.


Malcolm Betts
Nortel Networks
Phone: +1 613 763 7860 (ESN 393)
email: betts01@nortel.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Huub van Helvoort [mailto:hhelvoort@chello.nl] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:21 PM
To: Adrian Farrel
Cc: Betts, Malcolm (CAR:X632); mpls-interop@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection

Hi Adrian,

You replied:

> To be a little fair to Malcolm (although I don't see why he shouldn't
>  suffer) I think I raised the issue.
> 
> I saw that there is planned work on the G.808 series and I wondered 
> whether there was new work being done to develop generic 
> protection/restoration requirements that would also apply to MPLS-TP.

Because these are generic recommendations they are technology
independent. It is up to the technology specific protection
recommendation to identify one or more of the generic methods that will
be used in that particular technology.
It is not required that ALL generic methods described in G.808.x are
supported in a particular technology.

> If so (it seemed to me), we would be seeing the development of new 
> MPLS-TP requirements that were being developed without full and open 
> discussion with the MPLS-TP design team.

If there are requirements added they are generic, i.e. technology
independent.

Regards, Huub.


 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: "Drake, John E"
> <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> To: "Malcolm Betts" <betts01@nortel.com>; 
> "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc: <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:57 PM Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] 
> ITU-T work on protection
> 
> 
> Malcolm,
> 
> We have been gathering protection/restoration requirements since last

> fall with Huub's active involvement.  If you think there are 
> requirements in G.808.1 or G.808.2 that Huub neglected to tell us 
> about, why are you only now mentioning this?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
 >> From: Malcolm Betts
>> [mailto:betts01@nortel.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:43 PM 
>> To: Adrian Farrel Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org Subject: Re:
>> [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>> 
>> Adrian, since the intent of MPLS-TP is to satisfy (at least) the 
>> requirements of the transport network (as defined by the ITU-T) it 
>> would be prudent for the MPLS-TP design team to use G.808.1 and
>> G.808.2 as a source of requirements.  I anticipate that the ITU 
>> participants on the design team will assist in distilling these 
>> requirements and developing the text.  This should minimize the 
>> comments from the ITU during the review process.
>> 
>> 
>> Malcolm Betts Nortel Networks Phone: +1 613 763 7860 (ESN 393)
>> email: betts01@nortel.com
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
 >> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:33 AM To: hhelvoort@chello.nl Cc:
>> mpls-interop@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on 
>> protection
>> 
>> Hi Huub,
>> 
>> Yes. And thank you.
>> 
>> But perhaps my question was too subtle?
>> 
>> I am interested to know whether there are expectations that the 
>> generic descriptions will be applicable to MPLS-TP. In other words, I

>> want to know whether the MPLS-TP design team needs to focus on
>> G.808.1 and .2 in the knowledge that those Recommendations will drive

>> MPLS-TP requirements, or whether we can be more relaxed and say that 
>> requirements for MPLS-TP protection schemes will be developed in 
>> their own right.
>> 
>> In the case of the former, we have to watch out for MPLS-TP 
>> requirements being developed "by the back door". In the case of the 
>> latter, we would not want to hear later that such-and-such is a 
>> requirement "because it appears in G.808.1 or .2"
>> 
>> A
 >> ----- Original Message -----
 >> From: "Huub van Helvoort"
>> <hhelvoort@chello.nl> To: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Cc:
>> <mpls-interop@ietf.org> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] ITU-T work on protection
>> 
>> 
>>> Hi Adrian,
>>> 
>>> You wondered:
>>> 
>>>> Is anyone familiar with Q9/15's work on Generic Protection
>> Schemes in
>>>> G.808 etc.?
>>> 
>>> Yes, I am (because I am thew editor... as you could have seen on the

>>> Q9 homepage, or SG15 list of editors)
>>> 
>>> G.808.1 is for the generic description of linear protection 
>>> methodologies. G.808.2 is for the generic description of ring 
>>> protection methodologies.
>>> 
>>> Each technology has dedicated recommendations for the particular 
>>> protection mechanisms.
>>> 
>>>> Does anyone know whether the ITU-T has any expectations about their

>>>> work with regard to MPLS-TP?
>>> 
>>> Like protection recommendations for carrier ethernet, i.e G.8031
>>> (Linear) and G.8032 (Ring), Q9 has already developed and published 
>>> G.8131 (Linear) and was working on G.8132 (Ring) -- of which the 
>>> ring requirements were liaised to IETF.
>>> 
>>> According to the JWT agreement work on the latter two is put on 
>>> hold.
>>> 
>>> Regards, Huub.

--
================================================================
Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else...
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Subject: [Mpls-interop] Comments on MPLS-TP-Requirements
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I have some comments on the requirements draft.

Terminology. 

Layer network

>From G.805 - layer network: A "topological component" that represents the
complete set of access groups of the same type which may be associated for
the purpose of transferring information (see 5.2.1.1).

Now if this applies to the entire MPLS-TP nework of a single provider, then
this is fine, but we need to add the clarification.

But in reading through G.805 it is not clear to me whether applying this
term to MPLS-TP applies to the whole network or to the set of tunnels that
are stacked to a particular depth.

This term seems to date back to the well defined hierarchies of PDH/SDH/ATM.
See section 6 of G.805. For example VC/VP are two layers in ATM.  In MPLS-TP
the layering is only defined by how deeply nested
otherwise-identical-elements are.  Every node operates on the top-of-stack
label (perhaps pushing or popping and then operating on a new top-of-stack
label).  Since most any node could handle many different layers, I fail to
see the identifiable "topological component".  The only thing that is
readily identifiable here is the number of labels in the MPLS stack and
which of those labels are being processed at a given node on a given
connection(s).

I find the term unintuitive and misleading.  I would like to see it
clarified or eliminated.




Requirement 9 - It is not clear what this requirement actually requires.
Particularly for those of us who have limited experience with other
transport networks.  This req. needs to be expanded or removed.

Requirement 13 - s/taken/taking

Requirement 16 - I agree with note on D.

Requirement 17 - Pretty vacuous - ought to be dropped.

Requirement 20 - is this talking about carrier's carrier or nested tunnels?

Requirement 22 - this should be limited to non-shared-media networks.

Requirement 25 - does this, taken with req 20, imply that we need to allow
for separate addresses depending where in the label-stack we are?

Requirement 29 -  it is not clear to me what this requirement is for.  For
statically configured things, there is really no concept of upstream or
downstream assigned.  For things that are signaled in may in some cases be
useful to allow upstream assignment.  Would this requirement mean that for
the cases where upstream assignment was natural, that we would Require a
second solution that used downstream instead?  I suggest removing the
requirement.

Requirement 32 - Why is this "MUST require" congruency?  Isn't "MUST
support" enough?

Requirement 39 - this is a little vague.

Requirement 47 - vague, unmeasureable, (and probably harmless).

Requirement 55, 56 - do we have two default behaviors???  Or is 56 A a
copy/paste error?

Requirement 61 - does not apply to uni P2MP.  Does this rule out UPSR for
P2P? (Or is UPSR considered a higher layer construct).

Requirement 76 - please add definitions for these four terms

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In attachment the latest editor's version of the OAM Framework draft for
discussion at our meeting next week.

Thanks and have a nice week-end

Italo

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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] Comments on MPLS-TP-Requirements
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From: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com>, <mpls-interop@ietf.org>,
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] Comments on MPLS-TP-Requirements
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George,

	See somments in-line below... 

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of George Swallow
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 4:32 PM
To: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Ben Niven-Jenkins
Subject: [Mpls-interop] Comments on MPLS-TP-Requirements

I have some comments on the requirements draft.

Terminology. 

Layer network

>From G.805 - layer network: A "topological component" that represents
the
complete set of access groups of the same type which may be associated
for
the purpose of transferring information (see 5.2.1.1).

Now if this applies to the entire MPLS-TP nework of a single provider,
then
this is fine, but we need to add the clarification.

But in reading through G.805 it is not clear to me whether applying this
term to MPLS-TP applies to the whole network or to the set of tunnels
that
are stacked to a particular depth.

This term seems to date back to the well defined hierarchies of
PDH/SDH/ATM.
See section 6 of G.805. For example VC/VP are two layers in ATM.  In
MPLS-TP
the layering is only defined by how deeply nested
otherwise-identical-elements are.  Every node operates on the
top-of-stack
label (perhaps pushing or popping and then operating on a new
top-of-stack
label).  Since most any node could handle many different layers, I fail
to
see the identifiable "topological component".  The only thing that is
readily identifiable here is the number of labels in the MPLS stack and
which of those labels are being processed at a given node on a given
connection(s).

I find the term unintuitive and misleading.  I would like to see it
clarified or eliminated.

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

For MPLS networks in general, the notion of a layer network as defined
by
G.805 is very abstract.  For use of MPLS as a transport in the sense of 
PDH/SDH/SONET/ATM, however, this is an important concept to come to
grips
with.

If we're going to define a "transport profile" for use of MPLS as a form
of replacement technology, then we need this concept because - in that
context - services are defined over a particular network layer.  A lower
layer may provide services to a higher layer, but all services for any
given service context are defined for a single layer (which I believe is
exactly the concept that the term "Layer Network" is trying to address).

Clarification is a good idea; elimination is not.
=====================================END================================
==

Requirement 9 - It is not clear what this requirement actually requires.
Particularly for those of us who have limited experience with other
transport networks.  This req. needs to be expanded or removed.

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

If you are referring to General Requirement number 9, the meaning is 
fairly clear.  To paraphrase, the logical/abstract entities that are
defined in an MPLS-TP context to satisfy roles corresponding to like
entities in a Generic Transport context, would ideally be manageable
in a manner that does not require a complete paradigm shift for those
people who are already managing Transport Networks (i.e. - via the
same or similar management systems, using similar management objects,
interacting in a similar way). 
=====================================END================================
==

Requirement 13 - s/taken/taking

Requirement 16 - I agree with note on D.

Requirement 17 - Pretty vacuous - ought to be dropped.

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

Again, clarification might be in order but elimnation is a bad idea.

Scaling requirements are an essential part of defining protocols and
interactions that will not require fork-lift system replacements as
the character, usage and mix of services gets more complicated.  If
we do not define scaling requirements, then we are missing important
criteria for determining the suitability of the transport profile.

However, as is, this requirement is a little like motherhood, apple
pie and puppies.
=====================================END================================
==

Requirement 20 - is this talking about carrier's carrier or nested
tunnels?

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

If it were me you were asking, the answer would be "yes."
=====================================END================================
==

Requirement 22 - this should be limited to non-shared-media networks.

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

Why?
=====================================END================================
==

Requirement 25 - does this, taken with req 20, imply that we need to
allow
for separate addresses depending where in the label-stack we are?

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

This seems intuitively obvious to me, so I must be missing something. If

you view a transport network as service layers, isn't it obvious that we
need to define separation of addressing at each layer?  Is this not the
very reason why we define the concept of layer networks?
=====================================END================================
==

Requirement 29 -  it is not clear to me what this requirement is for.
For
statically configured things, there is really no concept of upstream or
downstream assigned.  For things that are signaled in may in some cases
be
useful to allow upstream assignment.  Would this requirement mean that
for
the cases where upstream assignment was natural, that we would Require a
second solution that used downstream instead?  I suggest removing the
requirement.

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

I don't see how this requirement implies that downstream label
assignment
is the only allowed approach.  The requirement simply says that MPLS-TP
(as a solution) MUST support it.  The requirement is silent on what else
should be, could be, or might be supported in terms of label assignment.

The requirement goes on to say that MPLS-TP MAY also support labels that
are context specific, but neither requires this nor implies that another
approach might not also be used.

Note that your comment about static configuration would be good, if we
had
any serious intention of proposing an MPLS-TP solution that only
supports
static configuration.
=====================================END================================
==

Requirement 32 - Why is this "MUST require" congruency?  Isn't "MUST
support" enough?

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

Not really.  The solution should allow the operator to compel
congruency.

I agree that there may be cases in which both operators and vendors
might
find desirable advantages of asymmetric paths, but the transport network
operator must be able to force MPLS-TP compliant equipment to establish
symmetric (congruent) paths.  And it seems to me that this should be a
feature that must be explicitly turned off if it is unwanted.
=====================================END================================
==

Requirement 39 - this is a little vague.

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

That is probably because the term "integrity" carries well known freight

in many contexts, including transport networks.  This should be expanded
to clarify the meaning of the requirement.
=====================================END================================
==

Requirement 47 - vague, unmeasureable, (and probably harmless).

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

This directly relates to requirement 9.  In the same sense that it is an
important goal to not require a new paradigm for management, it's
equally
important not to require a new paradigm for control of transport
networks
(this could be clarified quite a bit).
=====================================END================================
==

Requirement 55, 56 - do we have two default behaviors???  Or is 56 A a
copy/paste error?

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

These requirements are not defining default behavior; they define what
the MPLS-TP MUST support.  What an operator elects to use is up to them
and may not even be consistent on a per-operator or per-network basis.
However, the capabilities need to be supported by the MPLS-TP solution
if the operator is to have the choice at all.
=====================================END================================
==

Requirement 61 - does not apply to uni P2MP.  Does this rule out UPSR
for
P2P? (Or is UPSR considered a higher layer construct).

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

What this requirement is about is maintaining path congruency.  Perhaps
it
would be best worded accordingly?  In other words, if protection
activity
preserves path congruency, then restoration should as well.  Again, for
a
majority of cases, preserving path congruency is a goal and a decision
to
not do so should be an explicit one.
=====================================END================================
==

Requirement 76 - please add definitions for these four terms

====================================BEGIN===============================
==
EG

These are extremely well understood terms in transport networking.  Like
many cases where tersm have been used consistently in an industry for a
very long time, it may be difficult to find a formal definition in one 
place that everyone agrees is authoritative.

But their meaning is intuitive.  Lockout means making a path
operationally
unavailable, the difference between forced and manual switchover is
manual 
depends on the actual availability of the path to which a service is
being 
switched, and a simulated fault is a means for manually inducing a fault

indication as a means of testing protection.

There is a pretty good discussion of the meaning of (most of) these
terms 
at: 

http://www.ciscosystems.co.nz/univercd/cc/td/doc/product/mels/15530/12_2
_sv/config2/hcg_aps.htm#wp1032650

You may have seen it before.  :-)

I suggest adding them to the terminology section and capitalizing them
in
this requirement.
=====================================END================================
==

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From: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
To: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>, "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com>,
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I have some additional comments on both George and Eric's comments, also
inline. I edited out comments where I did not have anything additional
to add.

Cheers,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:51 AM
To: George Swallow; mpls-interop@ietf.org; Ben Niven-Jenkins
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] Comments on MPLS-TP-Requirements

George,

	See somments in-line below... 

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of George Swallow
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 4:32 PM
To: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Ben Niven-Jenkins
Subject: [Mpls-interop] Comments on MPLS-TP-Requirements

I have some comments on the requirements draft.

Terminology. 

Layer network

>From G.805 - layer network: A "topological component" that represents
the
complete set of access groups of the same type which may be associated
for
the purpose of transferring information (see 5.2.1.1).

Now if this applies to the entire MPLS-TP nework of a single provider,
then
this is fine, but we need to add the clarification.

But in reading through G.805 it is not clear to me whether applying this
term to MPLS-TP applies to the whole network or to the set of tunnels
that
are stacked to a particular depth.

This term seems to date back to the well defined hierarchies of
PDH/SDH/ATM.
See section 6 of G.805. For example VC/VP are two layers in ATM.  In
MPLS-TP
the layering is only defined by how deeply nested
otherwise-identical-elements are.  Every node operates on the
top-of-stack
label (perhaps pushing or popping and then operating on a new
top-of-stack
label).  Since most any node could handle many different layers, I fail
to
see the identifiable "topological component".  The only thing that is
readily identifiable here is the number of labels in the MPLS stack and
which of those labels are being processed at a given node on a given
connection(s).

I find the term unintuitive and misleading.  I would like to see it
clarified or eliminated.

====================================BEGIN===============================
EG

For MPLS networks in general, the notion of a layer network as defined
by
G.805 is very abstract.  For use of MPLS as a transport in the sense of 
PDH/SDH/SONET/ATM, however, this is an important concept to come to
Grips with.

If we're going to define a "transport profile" for use of MPLS as a form
of replacement technology, then we need this concept because - in that
context - services are defined over a particular network layer.  A lower
layer may provide services to a higher layer, but all services for any
given service context are defined for a single layer (which I believe is
exactly the concept that the term "Layer Network" is trying to address).

Clarification is a good idea; elimination is not.
=====================================END================================

>Andy: I agree with Eric. Perhaps we can define Layer Network as Eric
suggests in terms of the services provided to a higher layer. Thus (to
respond to George's point), a particular physical network element may
topologically belong to more than one layer network, depending on the
actions it takes on the label stack, and thus could be modeled as
multiple logical elements.

Requirement 9 - It is not clear what this requirement actually requires.
Particularly for those of us who have limited experience with other
transport networks.  This req. needs to be expanded or removed.

====================================BEGIN===============================
EG

If you are referring to General Requirement number 9, the meaning is 
fairly clear.  To paraphrase, the logical/abstract entities that are
defined in an MPLS-TP context to satisfy roles corresponding to like
entities in a Generic Transport context, would ideally be manageable
in a manner that does not require a complete paradigm shift for those
people who are already managing Transport Networks (i.e. - via the
same or similar management systems, using similar management objects,
interacting in a similar way). 
=====================================END================================


Andy> I also agree with Eric here, although I think I would have used
the word "similar" rather than "coherent".

Requirement 16 - I agree with note on D.

Andy> The genesis of this requirement is obvious - previous generations
of transport specs (especially involving rings) weren't sufficient to
ensure multi-vendor interoperability. So perhaps this requirement could
be re-written as a general requirement (and moved out of 16D to a
top-level requirement) that MPLS-TP needs to be sufficiently well
specified to ensure multi-vendor interoperability. While that also seems
like motherhood and apple pie (like the next requirement), obviously it
wasn't sufficiently obvious in previous transport specs.

Requirement 17 - Pretty vacuous - ought to be dropped.

====================================BEGIN===============================
EG

Again, clarification might be in order but elimnation is a bad idea.

Scaling requirements are an essential part of defining protocols and
interactions that will not require fork-lift system replacements as
the character, usage and mix of services gets more complicated.  If
we do not define scaling requirements, then we are missing important
criteria for determining the suitability of the transport profile.

However, as is, this requirement is a little like motherhood, apple
pie and puppies.
=====================================END================================

Andy> Again, I agree that motherhood and apple pie are good things and
it certainly doesn't hurt to spell out what may be obvious to us but
perhaps not to all readers.

Requirement 20 - is this talking about carrier's carrier or nested
tunnels?

====================================BEGIN===============================
EG

If it were me you were asking, the answer would be "yes."
=====================================END================================

Andy> I agree. Just as an editorial comment, this requirement needs to
ended with a ".".

Requirement 22 - this should be limited to non-shared-media networks.

====================================BEGIN===============================
EG

Why?
=====================================END================================

Andy> Vendors have been beginning to ask Verizon to list the media
networks where we would like to see MPLS-TP supported. So to make life
easier for everyone, we may wish to actually enumerate the required
media networks in this requirement. For Verizon, this list starts with
OTN G.709, SONET/SDH GFP, and point-to-point Ethernet. We don't see a
general requirement for MPLS-TP transported over shared Ethernet or
other shared media networks, but that's just us. I would like to hear
from other providers here as well, and I could perhaps be persuaded to
consider shared networks as well, but as this time I don't see the
requirement.

Requirement 32 - Why is this "MUST require" congruency?  Isn't "MUST
support" enough?

====================================BEGIN===============================
EG

Not really.  The solution should allow the operator to compel
congruency.

I agree that there may be cases in which both operators and vendors
might
find desirable advantages of asymmetric paths, but the transport network
operator must be able to force MPLS-TP compliant equipment to establish
symmetric (congruent) paths.  And it seems to me that this should be a
feature that must be explicitly turned off if it is unwanted.
=====================================END================================

Andy> Verizon absolutely requires that bidirectional paths be congruent.
If we don't care about congruency, we'll use unidirectional paths in
each direction.

Requirement 39 - this is a little vague.

====================================BEGIN===============================
EG

That is probably because the term "integrity" carries well known freight

in many contexts, including transport networks.  This should be expanded
to clarify the meaning of the requirement.
=====================================END================================

Andy> For VZ, this means that the MPLS-TP layer network must be able to
support end-to-end integrity - it must not depend on the media network
and physical switches.

Cheers,
Andy

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George,


On 15/01/2009 21:32, "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com> wrote:

> I have some comments on the requirements draft.
> 
> Terminology. 
> 
> Layer network
> 
> From G.805 - layer network: A "topological component" that represents the
> complete set of access groups of the same type which may be associated for
> the purpose of transferring information (see 5.2.1.1).
> 
> Now if this applies to the entire MPLS-TP nework of a single provider, then
> this is fine, but we need to add the clarification.

It applies to an entire MPLS-TP network.  That network may consist of a
single provider or multiple providers.  E.g. The Internet is a single layer
network consisting of multiple sub-networks operated by different providers.

> But in reading through G.805 it is not clear to me whether applying this
> term to MPLS-TP applies to the whole network or to the set of tunnels that
> are stacked to a particular depth.

Yes, this can get a bit confusing.  Label stack depth in MPLS is
sub-layering in G.805 terminology.  In other words each set of tunnels that
are stacked to a particular depth do not form their own MPLS-TP layer
network, they form part of an overall MPLS-TP layer network that consists of
all LSP at any depth within the MPLS-TP layer network.

In more understandable (I hope) but oversimplified terms.  If each set of
tunnels at a given stack depth were a separate layer network then they would
need to be functionality independent of the other stack depths, e.g. They
would require their own MP & CP at that depth. MPLS does not do that it uses
a common CP/MP across all stack depths within a single MPLS layer network.

> This term seems to date back to the well defined hierarchies of PDH/SDH/ATM.
> See section 6 of G.805. For example VC/VP are two layers in ATM.  In MPLS-TP
> the layering is only defined by how deeply nested
> otherwise-identical-elements are.  Every node operates on the top-of-stack
> label (perhaps pushing or popping and then operating on a new top-of-stack
> label).  Since most any node could handle many different layers, I fail to
> see the identifiable "topological component".  The only thing that is
> readily identifiable here is the number of labels in the MPLS stack and
> which of those labels are being processed at a given node on a given
> connection(s).
> 
> I find the term unintuitive and misleading.  I would like to see it
> clarified or eliminated.

Let's try ad clarify this week along with your other comments.
  

Ben

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we will have a mead team meeting on Tuesday.

Stewart,

could yo set the meeting same coordinates as usual?

Agenda:

Report form the meeting in Ipswich.

1. TP Requirements (Ben)
2. TP Framework (Stewart)
3. NM Requirements (Eric)

Outside the Ipswich meeting

4. Control Plane framework (Lou)

5. MEAD team organization

/Loa
-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu


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Thread-Topic: New version of OAM Analysis
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From: "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
To: "MEAD team" <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
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Cc: "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: [Mpls-interop] FW: New version of OAM Analysis
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Hi,

Attached please find the most updated version of the MPLS-TP OAM
analysis document. This version is aligned with the latest version of
the OAM requirement drafts, addresses comments we received and the
outcomes from the discussions in Geneva.

We will appreciate if you can review and comment. We would like to
update the version in the IETF site.=20

Best regards,

Nurit

=20

________________________________

From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)=20
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 23:14
To: ext David Ward
Cc: ext Huub van Helvoort; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon);
Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); Thomas D. Nadeau
Subject: FW: New version of OAM Analysis

=20

Hi Dave,

Did you have the chance to go over the document?=20

Will it be possible to meet Tuesday evening to discuss the changes to
the document that you propose? I would like to get ready for the session
on Thursday.

Best regards,

Nurit

=20

________________________________

From: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)=20
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 16:30
To: David Ward
Cc: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: New version of OAM Analysis

=20

Dave, hi

=20

attached are both the XML and generated TXT version of the OAM Analysis
document after we did a little editing to bring it closer into line with
the topics that were discussed in Geneva.  I understand that Loa wants
to review the document in Ipswich (on Thu) so it would be nice if you
could tell us what changes you are planning so that they can be included
in the overview that Nurit needs to prepare.

=20

Enjoy and Best Regards

=20

Yaacov Weingarten

=20

Nokia Siemens Networks GmbH & Co. KG

Industry Environment - CET

3 Hangar St Neve Ne'eman B

45241 Hod Hasharon, Israel

email:  yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com <mailto:yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>=20

 tel:     +972-9-775 1827

mob:   +972-54-220 0977

=20

=20


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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1 dir=3DRTL>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Attached please =
find the
most updated version of the MPLS-TP OAM analysis document. This version =
is
aligned with the latest version of the OAM requirement drafts, addresses
comments we received and the outcomes from the discussions in <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place
 w:st=3D"on">Geneva</st1:place></st1:City>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We will =
appreciate if you
can review and comment. We would like to update the version in the IETF =
site. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best =
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Nurit<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DLTR =
style=3D'text-align:center'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Sprecher,
Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, January 18, =
2009
23:14<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> ext David Ward<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> ext Huub van =
Helvoort;
Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - =
IL/Hod
HaSharon); Thomas D. Nadeau<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> FW: New version =
of OAM
Analysis</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi =
Dave,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Did you have the =
chance
to go over the document? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Will it be =
possible to
meet Tuesday evening to discuss the changes to the document that you =
propose? I
would like to get ready for the session on =
Thursday.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best =
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Nurit<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DLTR =
style=3D'text-align:center'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Weingarten, Yaacov</st1:PersonName> (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) =
<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, January 12, =
2009
16:30<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> David Ward<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Sprecher, Nurit (NSN =
- IL/Hod
HaSharon)<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> New version of =
OAM
Analysis</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Dave, hi<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>attached are both the XML and generated TXT version =
of the
OAM Analysis document after we did a little editing to bring it closer =
into
line with the topics that were discussed in <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:City
 w:st=3D"on">Geneva</st1:City></st1:place>. &nbsp;I understand that Loa =
wants to
review the document in Ipswich (on Thu) so it would be nice if you could =
tell
us what changes you are planning so that they can be included in the =
overview
that Nurit needs to prepare.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Enjoy and Best Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on"><strong><b><i><font
 size=3D2 color=3Dpurple face=3D"Monotype Corsiva"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
 font-family:"Monotype Corsiva";color:purple;font-style:italic'>Yaacov
 =
Weingarten</span></font></i></b></strong></st1:PersonName><strong><b><i><=
font
size=3D2 color=3Dpurple face=3D"Monotype Corsiva"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Monotype =
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></strong></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D1 face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>Nokia Siemens =
Networks GmbH
&amp; Co. KG<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D1 face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>Industry =
Environment - CET<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D1 face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>3 Hangar St Neve =
Ne'eman B</span></font><font
size=3D1><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D1 face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>45241 Hod =
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City
 w:st=3D"on">Hasharon</st1:City>, <st1:country-region =
w:st=3D"on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place></span></font><font
size=3D1><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D1 face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS"><span lang=3DFR
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>email:&nbsp; =
</span></font><font
size=3D1 face=3D"Comic Sans MS"><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'><a
href=3D"mailto:yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com"><font size=3D1><span lang=3DFR
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com</span></font></a></sp=
an></font><font
size=3D1><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C97C96.BC8CCB3F
Content-Type: text/xml;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Description: draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-oam-analysis-03-02.xml
Content-Disposition: attachment;
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From mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Jan 23 07:57:46 2009
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From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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To: MEAD team <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
Subject: [Mpls-interop] moving mpls-tp documents - you are supposed to respond
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Errors-To: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org All,

I'll to try push the next round of documents to wg last call,
or have them accepted as wg documents asap. The discussions in
Ipswich gave a of input that should be captured in several
documents.

This also means that we need to to have a couple of documents
become wg documents. Here are the steps we need to take:

draft-andersson-mpls-tp-oam-def       (accept as a MEAD team doc?)  	
draft-beller-mpls-tp-gach-dcn 	      (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
draft-boutros-mpls-tp-cv              (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
  	
draft-boutros-mpls-tp-fault           (accept as a MEAD team doc?) 	
draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback 	      (comments and review need!) 	
draft-boutros-mpls-tp-performance     (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
  	
draft-bryant-mpls-tp-ach-tlv          (accept as a MEAD team doc?) 	
draft-busi-mpls-tp-oam-framework      (update based on Ipswich
                                        discussion!) 	
draft-gray-mpls-tp-nm-req             (accept as a wg doc!)

draft-ietf-mpls-tp-framework          (prepare for a wg last call, after
                                        the tp-requirements are wg last
                                        called)
draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements   (we need to get existing comments
                                        written down, we will allow until
                                        Friday Jan 30 to do this, after
                                        that we'll prepare the doc for wg
                                        last call)
draft-ietf-mpls-tp-requirements       (prepare for wg last call)

draft-martinotti-mpls-tp-interworking (accept as a MEAD team doc?) 	
draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-oam-analysis   (update as soon as the
                                        oam-requirements are stable)
draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-survive-fwk    (document has expired and should
                                        be republished)

draft-yang-mpls-tp-ring-protection
-analysis                             (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

As a member of the MEAD team you are expected to respond to the
"accept as a MEAD team doc"?

As a a MEAD team member you are expected to supply your comments on
draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements on Fri Jan 30, the latest.

As an editor you are supposed to take the action (when the time is
right) for the other document.

A reminder:

Becoming a MEAD team document means that there a strong element
in that draft that the MEAD needs to coordinate, it won't stop
us from splitting or merge documents, just that we will do so
in a coordinated way.

Becoming wg documents means positive response to three questions.

- does this document address a problem that the wg needs to
   solve
- is this document a good enough start to solve this problem
- is it within wg charter

/Loa


-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu


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Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:16:36 +0100
From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Errors-To: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org Team,

I will review the membership of the MEAD team, currently we have
54 people on the mailing list, this is far more than is active,
and there are a few strong candidates to be included, but I'd
like to take people off first.

So if you receive this mail and thinks your are not interested, have the 
time or have other priorities, would you kindly notify me and
David Sinicrope <euddasi@redback.com> and we'll very gently take
you off the list.

/Loa
-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu


_______________________________________________
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From: "BUSI ITALO" <Italo.Busi@alcatel-lucent.it>
To: "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.nu>, "MEAD team" <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
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Errors-To: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org Loa,

By when are you expecting us to reply to the "accept as a MEAD team doc"
question?

Thanks and have a nice week-end

Italo 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org 
> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson
> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:57 PM
> To: MEAD team
> Subject: [Mpls-interop] moving mpls-tp documents - you are 
> supposed torespond
> 
> All,
> 
> I'll to try push the next round of documents to wg last call,
> or have them accepted as wg documents asap. The discussions in
> Ipswich gave a of input that should be captured in several
> documents.
> 
> This also means that we need to to have a couple of documents
> become wg documents. Here are the steps we need to take:
> 
> draft-andersson-mpls-tp-oam-def       (accept as a MEAD team doc?)  	
> draft-beller-mpls-tp-gach-dcn 	      (accept as a MEAD 
> team doc?)
> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-cv              (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
>   	
> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-fault           (accept as a MEAD team doc?) 	
> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback 	      (comments and 
> review need!) 	
> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-performance     (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
>   	
> draft-bryant-mpls-tp-ach-tlv          (accept as a MEAD team doc?) 	
> draft-busi-mpls-tp-oam-framework      (update based on Ipswich
>                                         discussion!) 	
> draft-gray-mpls-tp-nm-req             (accept as a wg doc!)
> 
> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-framework          (prepare for a wg last 
> call, after
>                                         the tp-requirements 
> are wg last
>                                         called)
> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements   (we need to get 
> existing comments
>                                         written down, we will 
> allow until
>                                         Friday Jan 30 to do 
> this, after
>                                         that we'll prepare 
> the doc for wg
>                                         last call)
> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-requirements       (prepare for wg last call)
> 
> draft-martinotti-mpls-tp-interworking (accept as a MEAD team doc?) 	
> draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-oam-analysis   (update as soon as the
>                                         oam-requirements are stable)
> draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-survive-fwk    (document has expired and should
>                                         be republished)
> 
> draft-yang-mpls-tp-ring-protection
> -analysis                             (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
> 
> As a member of the MEAD team you are expected to respond to the
> "accept as a MEAD team doc"?
> 
> As a a MEAD team member you are expected to supply your comments on
> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements on Fri Jan 30, the latest.
> 
> As an editor you are supposed to take the action (when the time is
> right) for the other document.
> 
> A reminder:
> 
> Becoming a MEAD team document means that there a strong element
> in that draft that the MEAD needs to coordinate, it won't stop
> us from splitting or merge documents, just that we will do so
> in a coordinated way.
> 
> Becoming wg documents means positive response to three questions.
> 
> - does this document address a problem that the wg needs to
>    solve
> - is this document a good enough start to solve this problem
> - is it within wg charter
> 
> /Loa
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> Loa Andersson
> 
> Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
> Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14
> 
>                                        email:  
> loa.andersson@ericsson.com
>                                                
> loa.andersson@redback.com
>                                                loa@pi.nu
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> 
_______________________________________________
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From: Loa Andersson <eloaand@redback.com>
To: BUSI ITALO <Italo.Busi@alcatel-lucent.it>, MEAD team <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:21:46 -0800
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Errors-To: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org Italo,

As always with "sooner is better", but there are no other time
limit than what is practical with respect to a certain document.

But if you drag out to long you always risk that I make another
call of consensus than what you'd wanted and then you have to
live with it.


/Loa
-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of BUSI ITALO
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 5:17 PM
To: Loa Andersson; MEAD team
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] moving mpls-tp documents - you are supposed torespond

Loa,

By when are you expecting us to reply to the "accept as a MEAD team doc"
question?

Thanks and have a nice week-end

Italo

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson
> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:57 PM
> To: MEAD team
> Subject: [Mpls-interop] moving mpls-tp documents - you are
> supposed torespond
>
> All,
>
> I'll to try push the next round of documents to wg last call,
> or have them accepted as wg documents asap. The discussions in
> Ipswich gave a of input that should be captured in several
> documents.
>
> This also means that we need to to have a couple of documents
> become wg documents. Here are the steps we need to take:
>
> draft-andersson-mpls-tp-oam-def       (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
> draft-beller-mpls-tp-gach-dcn               (accept as a MEAD
> team doc?)
> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-cv              (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
>
> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-fault           (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback              (comments and
> review need!)
> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-performance     (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
>
> draft-bryant-mpls-tp-ach-tlv          (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
> draft-busi-mpls-tp-oam-framework      (update based on Ipswich
>                                         discussion!)
> draft-gray-mpls-tp-nm-req             (accept as a wg doc!)
>
> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-framework          (prepare for a wg last
> call, after
>                                         the tp-requirements
> are wg last
>                                         called)
> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements   (we need to get
> existing comments
>                                         written down, we will
> allow until
>                                         Friday Jan 30 to do
> this, after
>                                         that we'll prepare
> the doc for wg
>                                         last call)
> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-requirements       (prepare for wg last call)
>
> draft-martinotti-mpls-tp-interworking (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
> draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-oam-analysis   (update as soon as the
>                                         oam-requirements are stable)
> draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-survive-fwk    (document has expired and should
>                                         be republished)
>
> draft-yang-mpls-tp-ring-protection
> -analysis                             (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
>
> As a member of the MEAD team you are expected to respond to the
> "accept as a MEAD team doc"?
>
> As a a MEAD team member you are expected to supply your comments on
> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements on Fri Jan 30, the latest.
>
> As an editor you are supposed to take the action (when the time is
> right) for the other document.
>
> A reminder:
>
> Becoming a MEAD team document means that there a strong element
> in that draft that the MEAD needs to coordinate, it won't stop
> us from splitting or merge documents, just that we will do so
> in a coordinated way.
>
> Becoming wg documents means positive response to three questions.
>
> - does this document address a problem that the wg needs to
>    solve
> - is this document a good enough start to solve this problem
> - is it within wg charter
>
> /Loa
>
>
> --
>
>
> Loa Andersson
>
> Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
> Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14
>
>                                        email:
> loa.andersson@ericsson.com
>
> loa.andersson@redback.com
>                                                loa@pi.nu
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
_______________________________________________
Mpls-interop mailing list
Mpls-interop@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
_______________________________________________
Mpls-interop mailing list
Mpls-interop@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop

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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] moving mpls-tp documents - you are supposed torespond
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Errors-To: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org Hi Loa,

> draft-andersson-mpls-tp-oam-def       (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

Yes. But will need significantly more work once accepted.

> draft-beller-mpls-tp-gach-dcn       (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

Yes. Addresses a requirement. But will need some more details once accepted.
(I am a co-author)

> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-cv              (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

Not oposed.
I have some confusion about the control plane aspects of this draft.

> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-fault           (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

No, not yet.
This I-D is quite significantly different from the way faults are handled 
and notified in GMPLS (the candidate control plane) and some convergence is 
desirable.

> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback       (comments and review need!)

No, not yet.
I do not see that the requirements for this work are present in the OAM 
requirements.

> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-performance     (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

No, not yet.
The OAM requirements for performance measurement and reporting do not have 
consensus (IMHO).

> draft-bryant-mpls-tp-ach-tlv          (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

I am wary of a document that defines specific TLVs without describing their 
use. Indeed this use is defered to other documents without reference. This 
means that specific TLVs may be being created without a valid use, or in a 
format that cannot be used.

Better to move the definition of the TLV structure, the IANA registry, and 
the Null TLV into [GAL-GACH] and to move the definition of the specific TLVs 
into their own I-Ds.

If that happens, this I-D should be deleted.

> draft-busi-mpls-tp-oam-framework (update based on Ipswich discussion!)

Yes, but only after updates are submitted.

> draft-gray-mpls-tp-nm-req (accept as a wg doc!)

Yes, but only after Ipswich updates are submitted.

> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-framework
> (prepare for a wg last call, after the
>   tp-requirements are wg last called)

Believe this would be very premature.
The f/w cannot describe many of the MPLS-TP functions as they have not been 
developed yet.
We should keep updating this document until the MPLS-TP scenery is in focus.

> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements   (we need to get existing comments
>                                        written down, we will allow until
>                                        Friday Jan 30 to do this, after
>                                        that we'll prepare the doc for wg
>                                        last call)

Sorry, is this a last call for comments that need to be in before a last 
call for comments can be issued?

> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-requirements       (prepare for wg last call)

Agree, but will need substantial input from ITU before last call.

> draft-martinotti-mpls-tp-interworking (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

No, not yet.
I do not believe that many of these scenarios are within scope.
We are (still!) waiting for a set of deployment scenarios from the ITU.

> draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-oam-analysis   (update as soon as the
>                                        oam-requirements are stable)

Agreed. Work in progress.

> draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-survive-fwk    (document has expired and should
>                                        be republished)

In hand.

> draft-yang-mpls-tp-ring-protection-analysis
>                             (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

No.
Useful background material and input to draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-survive-fwk, 
but not needed as an RFC.

> As a member of the MEAD team you are expected to respond to the
> "accept as a MEAD team doc"?

I did.

> As a a MEAD team member you are expected to supply your comments on
> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements on Fri Jan 30, the latest.

I will.

> As an editor you are supposed to take the action (when the time is
> right) for the other document.

I plan to.

Adrian 

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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] FW: New version of OAM Analysis
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Nurit,

I suggest you don't wait for review and comment, but post the updated 
version.

A
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
To: "MEAD team" <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
Cc: "Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:38 PM
Subject: [Mpls-interop] FW: New version of OAM Analysis


Hi,

Attached please find the most updated version of the MPLS-TP OAM
analysis document. This version is aligned with the latest version of
the OAM requirement drafts, addresses comments we received and the
outcomes from the discussions in Geneva.

We will appreciate if you can review and comment. We would like to
update the version in the IETF site.

Best regards,

Nurit



________________________________

From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 23:14
To: ext David Ward
Cc: ext Huub van Helvoort; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon);
Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); Thomas D. Nadeau
Subject: FW: New version of OAM Analysis



Hi Dave,

Did you have the chance to go over the document?

Will it be possible to meet Tuesday evening to discuss the changes to
the document that you propose? I would like to get ready for the session
on Thursday.

Best regards,

Nurit



________________________________

From: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 16:30
To: David Ward
Cc: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: New version of OAM Analysis



Dave, hi



attached are both the XML and generated TXT version of the OAM Analysis
document after we did a little editing to bring it closer into line with
the topics that were discussed in Geneva.  I understand that Loa wants
to review the document in Ipswich (on Thu) so it would be nice if you
could tell us what changes you are planning so that they can be included
in the overview that Nurit needs to prepare.



Enjoy and Best Regards



Yaacov Weingarten



Nokia Siemens Networks GmbH & Co. KG

Industry Environment - CET

3 Hangar St Neve Ne'eman B

45241 Hod Hasharon, Israel

email:  yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com <mailto:yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>

 tel:     +972-9-775 1827

mob:   +972-54-220 0977








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From: "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
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Hi,

Please see inline.

Best regards,

Nurit

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Loa Andersson
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 17:57
To: MEAD team
Subject: [Mpls-interop] moving mpls-tp documents - you are supposed =
torespond

=20

All,

=20

I'll to try push the next round of documents to wg last call,

or have them accepted as wg documents asap. The discussions in

Ipswich gave a of input that should be captured in several

documents.

=20

This also means that we need to to have a couple of documents

become wg documents. Here are the steps we need to take:

=20

draft-andersson-mpls-tp-oam-def       (accept as a MEAD team doc?)     =20

<NS> Support <NS>

draft-beller-mpls-tp-gach-dcn             (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

<NS> Support <NS>

draft-boutros-mpls-tp-cv              (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

<NS> In the OAM requirement draft we have a requirement for Continuity =
and Connectivity Verification. There are references for p2p and p2mp, =
on-demand and protective modes......etc. We have specific description of =
the behavior of MEPs and MIPs.......

We definitely need a tool to address the requirements for CC&V.=20

We can accept the document once it is clear it addresses a requirement =
of the OAM requirement draft. We need to see which requirement it =
addresses (if the authors believe a dedicated tool is needed for CV only =
they need to discuss it first in the context of the OAM requirements. As =
I recall it we had confusion and a long discussion on the CC and CV =
functions and the decision was to combine these to functions into one =
CC&V. The OAM requirement draft as well as the framework and the =
analysis documents were updated to align with this conclusion. We can =
re-open the discussion but in the right context.

Also I am not sure the draft addresses the requirement for CV as defined =
in the OAM requirements draft but the one for route determination (route =
trace). It is not clear in which modes it works (on demand? Proactive?). =


It is not clear how it works for P2MP. I am not sure it is clear how we =
differentiate between a message sent to a MEP and a one sent to a MIP. =
In the way the document is describes, all LSRs along the path are =
considered as MIPs and always pick a message with TTL=3D1, handles it =
and forward it to the next hop setting the TTL to 1. In the requirement =
draft we can send a message to a specific MIP and we do not request it =
to forward the message further.=20

I propose the author addresses these and other comments we sent them and =
then we can accept the document.=20

In any case, even when accepted, we need to review first the framework =
and the analysis drafts. <NS>

     =20

draft-boutros-mpls-tp-fault           (accept as a MEAD team doc?)     =20

<NS> I did not have the chance to look at the document yet. I'll review =
it and come back. <NS>

=20

draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback            (comments and review need!)  =20

<NS> There is no requirement in the OAM requirement draft for a loopback =
tool. I propose to discuss it first in the context of the OAM =
requirements. If there is a consensus that such a tool is required, we =
should update the analysis draft and have such a document. <NS>

=20

draft-boutros-mpls-tp-performance     (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

<NS> I did not have the chance to look at the document yet. I'll review =
it and come back. <NS>

     =20

draft-bryant-mpls-tp-ach-tlv          (accept as a MEAD team doc?)     =20

<NS> Yes in principle. The document needs (1) to be updated to remove =
the A bit (although I am not happy to see an empty TLV even if there is =
no need for TLV. I would prefer a more elegant way to identify if the =
packet includes ACH TLV. For me it looks like having an EThertype of =
MPLS and leave the MPLS header empty). (2) The document should be =
extended to include a domain-wide unique identifier for a LSP (src =
address, dest address and connection/path id which is unique in the =
context of src and dest). We need such for IPV4 and one for IPv6 and =
maybe other types as well. (3) include a description of some =
application/usage of each TLV <NS>

=20

draft-busi-mpls-tp-oam-framework      (update based on Ipswich

                                        discussion!)

<NS> no need to support here. Right? This is already a MEAD document. Or =
maybe you ask about moving it to WG document. I would support this. <NS>

     =20

draft-gray-mpls-tp-nm-req             (accept as a wg doc!)

<NS> Support. Once it is accepted as a WG document, I propose to move to =
last call. <NS>

=20

draft-ietf-mpls-tp-framework          (prepare for a wg last call, after

                                        the tp-requirements are wg last

                                        called)

=20

<NS> I am afraid we need to work more on this document before it goes to =
last call. I am concerned from the sections on OAM and survivability =
frameworks. I think they need just to refer to the specific documents.=20

I also think that we need to discuss there the fundamental architectural =
elements that are needed in order to manage, monitor and protect the =
MPLS-TP network in different nested levels. Specifically I refer to the =
specific case of TC and to the general case of PST (or maybe now it is =
better to call it PCST (Path Concatenated Segment Tunnel). <NS>

=20

draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements   (we need to get existing comments

                                        written down, we will allow =
until

                                        Friday Jan 30 to do this, after

                                        that we'll prepare the doc for =
wg

                                        last call)

<NS> Support. Maybe it couls be useful to extend a little the section of =
the required functions in order to have =E7=E3 =EE=F9=EE=F2=E9 =
understanding of the requirement. The CC&V is a good example. =
Specifically to CV it could be useful to indicate that we check that =
there is connectivity between the MEPs and we do not trace the route. =
<NS>

=20

draft-ietf-mpls-tp-requirements       (prepare for wg last call)

<NS> Support <NS>

=20

draft-martinotti-mpls-tp-interworking (accept as a MEAD team doc?)     =20

<NS> Support. We still need to work on this document but it is clear =
that we need such a document and I think it will be beneficial to work =
on this in the MEAD team. <NS>=20

=20

draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-oam-analysis   (update as soon as the

                                        oam-requirements are stable)

<NS> The document is 100% aligned with the OAM requirements and =
framework documents. It addresses comment we got and the outcomes from =
Geneva. We will keep updating the document when the needed. <NS>

=20

draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-survive-fwk    (document has expired and should

                                        be republished)

<NS> we will submit an updated version <NS>=20

=20

draft-yang-mpls-tp-ring-protection

-analysis                             (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

<NS> I think the input is very important for the requirement draft and =
the survivability document. If we decide to develop a document for ring =
protection, the input is very useful. Do we need a specific document for =
the evaluation? I do not think so. <NS>

=20

As a member of the MEAD team you are expected to respond to the

"accept as a MEAD team doc"?

<NS> I have just did. Will provide more answers to the two documents I =
did not review. <NS>

=20

As a a MEAD team member you are expected to supply your comments on

draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements on Fri Jan 30, the latest.

<NS> I will <NS>

=20

As an editor you are supposed to take the action (when the time is

right) for the other document.

<NS> I will <NS>

A reminder:

=20

Becoming a MEAD team document means that there a strong element

in that draft that the MEAD needs to coordinate, it won't stop

us from splitting or merge documents, just that we will do so

in a coordinated way.

=20

Becoming wg documents means positive response to three questions.

=20

- does this document address a problem that the wg needs to

   solve

- is this document a good enough start to solve this problem

- is it within wg charter

=20

/Loa

=20

=20

--=20

=20

=20

Loa Andersson

=20

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager

Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

=20

                                       email:  =
loa.andersson@ericsson.com

                                               loa.andersson@redback.com

                                               loa@pi.nu

=20

=20

_______________________________________________

Mpls-interop mailing list

Mpls-interop@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop


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<div class=3DSection1 dir=3DRTL>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Please see =
inline.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Nurit<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of ext Loa Andersson<br>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 17:57<br>
To: MEAD team<br>
Subject: [Mpls-interop] moving mpls-tp documents - you are supposed =
torespond</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I'll to try push the next round of documents =
to wg
last call,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>or have them accepted as wg documents asap. =
The
discussions in<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2
 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Ipswich</span></font></st1:place>
gave a of input that should be captured in several<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>documents.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This also means that we need to to have a =
couple of
documents<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>become wg documents. Here are the steps we =
need to
take:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-andersson-mpls-tp-oam-def=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0 (accept as a
MEAD team doc?)=A0 =A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; Support =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-beller-mpls-tp-gach-dcn =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0(accept as a
MEAD team doc?)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; Support =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-boutros-mpls-tp-cv=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 (accept as a
MEAD team doc?)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; In the OAM requirement =
draft we
have a requirement for Continuity and Connectivity Verification. There =
are references
for p2p and p2mp, on-demand and protective modes......etc. We have =
specific description
of the behavior of MEPs and MIPs.......<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>We definitely need a tool to =
address the
requirements for CC&amp;V. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>We can accept the document once =
it is
clear it addresses a requirement of the OAM requirement draft. We need =
to see
which requirement it addresses (if the authors believe a dedicated tool =
is
needed for CV only they need to discuss it first in the context of the =
OAM requirements.
As I recall it we had confusion and a long discussion on the CC and CV =
functions
and the decision was to combine these to functions into one CC&amp;V. =
The OAM requirement
draft as well as the framework and the analysis documents were updated =
to align
with this conclusion. We can re-open the discussion but in the right =
context.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Also I am not sure the draft =
addresses the
requirement for CV as defined in the OAM requirements draft but the one =
for
route determination (route trace). It is not clear in which modes it =
works (on
demand? Proactive?). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>It is not clear how it works for P2MP. I am =
not sure
it is clear how we differentiate between a message sent to a MEP and a =
one sent
to a MIP. In the way the document is describes, all LSRs along the path =
are
considered as MIPs and always pick a message with TTL=3D1, handles it =
and forward
it to the next hop setting the TTL to 1. In the requirement draft we can =
send a
message to a specific MIP and we do not request it to forward the =
message further.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I propose the author addresses these and =
other
comments we sent them and then we can accept the document. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>In any case, even when accepted, we need to =
review
first the framework and the analysis drafts. =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0 =A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-boutros-mpls-tp-fault=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0 (accept as a
MEAD team doc?) =A0=A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; I did not have the =
chance to
look at the document yet. I'll review it and come back. =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback =A0=A0=A0=A0 =
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0(comments
and review need!) =A0 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; There is no =
requirement in the
OAM requirement draft for a loopback tool. I propose to discuss it first =
in the
context of the OAM requirements. If there is a consensus that such a =
tool is
required, we should update the analysis draft and have such a document. =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-boutros-mpls-tp-performance=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
(accept as a
MEAD team doc?)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&lt;NS&gt; I did not have the chance to look =
at the
document yet. I'll review it and come back. =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0 =A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-bryant-mpls-tp-ach-tlv=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0 (accept as a
MEAD team doc?) =A0=A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; Yes in principle. The =
document
needs (1) to be updated to remove the A bit (although I am not happy to =
see an
empty TLV even if there is no need for TLV. I would prefer a more =
elegant way to
identify if the packet includes ACH TLV. For me it looks like having an
EThertype of MPLS and leave the MPLS header empty). (2) The document =
should be
extended to include a domain-wide unique identifier for a LSP (src =
address,
dest address and connection/path id which is unique in the context of =
src and
dest). We need such for IPV4 and one for IPv6 and maybe other types as =
well. (3)
include a description of some application/usage of each TLV =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-busi-mpls-tp-oam-framework=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
 (update based on
<st1:place w:st=3D"on">Ipswich</st1:place><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
discussion!)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&lt;NS&gt; no need to support here. Right? =
This is
already a MEAD document. Or maybe you ask about moving it to WG =
document. I
would support this. &lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-gray-mpls-tp-nm-req=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 (accept as a wg
doc!)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; Support. Once it is =
accepted as
a WG document, I propose to move to last call. =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-ietf-mpls-tp-framework=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0 (prepare for a
wg last call, after<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
the
tp-requirements are wg last<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
called)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; I am afraid we need to =
work
more on this document before it goes to last call. I am concerned from =
the
sections on OAM and survivability frameworks. I think they need just to =
refer
to the specific documents. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>I also think that we need to =
discuss there
the fundamental architectural elements that are needed in order to =
manage, monitor
and protect the MPLS-TP network in different nested levels. Specifically =
I
refer to the specific case of TC and to the general case of PST (or =
maybe now
it is better to call it PCST (Path Concatenated Segment Tunnel). =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements=A0=A0 (we =
need to get
existing comments<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
written down,
we will allow until<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
Friday Jan 30
to do this, after<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
=A0=A0that we'll
prepare the doc for wg<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
last call)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; Support. Maybe it =
couls be
useful to extend a little the section of the required functions in order =
to
have </span></font><font color=3Dblack><span lang=3DHE dir=3DRTL =
style=3D'color:black'>=E7=E3
=EE=F9=EE=F2=E9</span><span dir=3DLTR></span><span lang=3DHE><span =
dir=3DLTR></span> </span>understanding
of the requirement. The CC&amp;V is a good example. Specifically to CV =
it could
be useful to indicate that we check that there is connectivity between =
the MEPs
and we do not trace the route. &lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-ietf-mpls-tp-requirements=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0 (prepare for wg
last call)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; Support =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-martinotti-mpls-tp-interworking (accept =
as a
MEAD team doc?) =A0=A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; Support. We still need =
to work
on this document but it is clear that we need such a document and I =
think it
will be beneficial to work on this in the MEAD team. &lt;NS&gt; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-oam-analysis=A0=A0 =
(update as soon
as the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
oam-requirements are stable)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; The document is 100% =
aligned
with the OAM requirements and framework documents. It addresses comment =
we got and
the outcomes from <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Geneva</st1:place></st1:City>.
We will keep updating the document when the needed. =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span lang=3DHE
dir=3DRTL style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-survive-fwk=A0=A0=A0 =
(document has
expired and should<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 be
republished)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; we will submit an =
updated
version &lt;NS&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-yang-mpls-tp-ring-protection<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>-analysis=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 (accept as a
MEAD team doc?)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; I think the input is =
very
important for the requirement draft and the survivability document. If =
we
decide to develop a document for ring protection, the input is very =
useful. Do
we need a specific document for the evaluation? I do not think so. =
&lt;NS&gt;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>As a member of the MEAD team you are expected =
to
respond to the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&quot;accept as a MEAD team =
doc&quot;?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&lt;NS&gt; I have just did. Will =
provide
more answers to the two documents I did not review. =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>As a a MEAD team member you are expected to =
supply
your comments on<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements on Fri =
Jan 30, the
latest.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&lt;NS&gt; I will =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>As an editor you are supposed to take the =
action (when
the time is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>right) for the other =
document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&lt;NS&gt; I will =
&lt;NS&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>A reminder:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Becoming a MEAD team document means that =
there a
strong element<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>in that draft that the MEAD needs to =
coordinate, it
won't stop<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>us from splitting or merge documents, just =
that we
will do so<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>in a coordinated =
way.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Becoming wg documents means positive response =
to three
questions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>- does this document address a problem that =
the wg
needs to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0 solve<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>- is this document a good enough start to =
solve this
problem<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>- is it within wg =
charter<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>/Loa<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Loa Andersson<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Sr Strategy and Standards =
Manager<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Ericsson =
///=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0 phone:=A0 +46 8
632 77 14<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
email:=A0
loa.andersson@ericsson.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
loa.andersson@redback.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
loa@pi.nu<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>______________________________________________=
_<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Mpls-interop mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Mpls-interop@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-int=
erop<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

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My views. Note some of my comments are based on just quickly scanning the
documents as I haven't had chance to read them all properly. Ben


On 23/01/2009 15:57, "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.nu> wrote:

> All,
> 
> I'll to try push the next round of documents to wg last call,
> or have them accepted as wg documents asap. The discussions in
> Ipswich gave a of input that should be captured in several
> documents.
> 
> This also means that we need to to have a couple of documents
> become wg documents. Here are the steps we need to take:
> 
> draft-andersson-mpls-tp-oam-def       (accept as a MEAD team doc?)   

Accept.

> draft-beller-mpls-tp-gach-dcn        (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

Accept

> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-cv              (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

Accept (important for MPLS-TP OAM reqs but probably need significant work to
encompass necessary requirements like P2MP etc.)

> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-fault           (accept as a MEAD team doc?)  

It is not clear to me what the scope of the draft is. It appears to define a
protection switching trigger message. It is not clear to me if this is
restricted purely to triggering protection switching or also covers a
generic FDI/BDI function? Also need to understand its relationship to
survivability framework and proposed MPLS-TP protection solutions. So I
think it's a bit premature to accept this document just yet.

> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback        (comments and review need!)  

I haven't read but appears to provide a useful function, however loopback
doesn't seem to be mentioned in the OAM requirements. Need to understand
better the problem being solved and how it relates to OAM requirements
(which may just mean I need to read the draft as its already covered)

General comment of solution drafts, I think it might be useful to somehow
reference which subset of requirements a particular solution addresses.  Not
some huge copy & paste of every one from the requirements drafts, but a
pointer to a section in a requirements draft or something.

> draft-boutros-mpls-tp-performance     (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

Accept performance monitoring is a gap in current MPLS OAM capabilities.
Should the draft also discuss directional performance measurement?

> draft-bryant-mpls-tp-ach-tlv          (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

Accept
  
> draft-busi-mpls-tp-oam-framework      (update based on Ipswich
>                                         discussion!)  
> draft-gray-mpls-tp-nm-req             (accept as a wg doc!)

Would support.

> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-framework          (prepare for a wg last call, after
>                                         the tp-requirements are wg last
>                                         called)

Following the Ipswich meeting I expect this to have some significant edits
(additional text) so would be good to have round of review before WG last
call.

> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements   (we need to get existing comments
>                                         written down, we will allow until
>                                         Friday Jan 30 to do this, after
>                                         that we'll prepare the doc for wg
>                                         last call)
> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-requirements       (prepare for wg last call)
> 
> draft-martinotti-mpls-tp-interworking (accept as a MEAD team doc?)  

This document comes under "Day 2" work IMO. In other words I think the
workload is big enough already without addressing this in the "Day 1" batch
of documents. Furthermore it would benefit from having a set of initial
solutions documents before we figure out what if anything is required wrt
interworking.

> draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-oam-analysis   (update as soon as the
>                                         oam-requirements are stable)
> draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-survive-fwk    (document has expired and should
>                                         be republished)
> 
> draft-yang-mpls-tp-ring-protection
> -analysis                             (accept as a MEAD team doc?)

This also comes under "Day 2" work. While it contains some useful
information I think we need to have a clear view of what general protection
looks like for MPLS-TP before digging into any ring specific mechanisms.

> As a member of the MEAD team you are expected to respond to the
> "accept as a MEAD team doc"?
> 
> As a a MEAD team member you are expected to supply your comments on
> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements on Fri Jan 30, the latest.
> 
> As an editor you are supposed to take the action (when the time is
> right) for the other document.
> 
> A reminder:
> 
> Becoming a MEAD team document means that there a strong element
> in that draft that the MEAD needs to coordinate, it won't stop
> us from splitting or merge documents, just that we will do so
> in a coordinated way.
> 
> Becoming wg documents means positive response to three questions.
> 
> - does this document address a problem that the wg needs to
>    solve
> - is this document a good enough start to solve this problem
> - is it within wg charter
> 
> /Loa
> 

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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Drake, John E wrote:
>  
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com] 
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:41 PM
>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>> Colleagues,
>>
>> What's the current view of how to support MPLS over MPLS-TP?
>>
>> Do we put a PW in the middle (like draft-bryant) or do we just 
>> use the label stack and have MPLS directly over MPLS-TP?
>>     
>
> JD:  I always thought this was a terrible idea. 
John, which one or both?

>  Since MPLS-TP is a
> particular MPLS profile and since we said that the MPLS dataplane
> wouldn't be touched, I think we would either add entries to the stack
> (MPLS), or place an IP packet after the stack (IP).
>   
PWs run over MPLS and don't often carry IP, at least not directly, so PW 
after
the stack is also allowed.

MPLS-TP is a profile of PW over MPLS, so using an intermediate PW of some
kind is within scope.

The argument for greater isolation than is achieved by simply pushing more
labels comes from the service provider community. We therefore need to
determine from them whether that are happy with a single contiguous
label stack in the MPLS-TP carriers case. If they are, then that is the 
way to go.
If they are not, we need to design an encapsulation that gives them the
degree of isolation they are looking for.

Stewart

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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Stewart,

I think you're starting at the beginning of a long e-mail thread.  I
think we ended up with a pair of label stacks (service provider stack,
customer stack), applied recursively as needed, with each stack being be
manipulated independently. 

The presence of a customer MPLS packet with its label stack, as opposed
to a PWE packet or an IP packet, would be indicated either by a unique
value or values in the first nibble of the customer packet (i.e., the
first nibble of the top label cannot have any of the currently defined
values), or with a reserved bottom most label (payload is MPLS) in the
service provider stack.

Thanks,

John 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com] 
>Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:01 AM
>To: Drake, John E
>Cc: Ben Niven-Jenkins; mpls-interop@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Drake, John E wrote:
>>  
>>
>>   
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:41 PM
>>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>
>>> Colleagues,
>>>
>>> What's the current view of how to support MPLS over MPLS-TP?
>>>
>>> Do we put a PW in the middle (like draft-bryant) or do we just use 
>>> the label stack and have MPLS directly over MPLS-TP?
>>>     
>>
>> JD:  I always thought this was a terrible idea. 
>John, which one or both?
>
>>  Since MPLS-TP is a
>> particular MPLS profile and since we said that the MPLS dataplane 
>> wouldn't be touched, I think we would either add entries to 
>the stack 
>> (MPLS), or place an IP packet after the stack (IP).
>>   
>PWs run over MPLS and don't often carry IP, at least not 
>directly, so PW after the stack is also allowed.
>
>MPLS-TP is a profile of PW over MPLS, so using an intermediate 
>PW of some kind is within scope.
>
>The argument for greater isolation than is achieved by simply 
>pushing more labels comes from the service provider community. 
>We therefore need to determine from them whether that are 
>happy with a single contiguous label stack in the MPLS-TP 
>carriers case. If they are, then that is the way to go.
>If they are not, we need to design an encapsulation that gives 
>them the degree of isolation they are looking for.
>
>Stewart
>
>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Hi John,
As a matter of fact, as I recall we had a long discussion on this issue
on the mailing list but with no real conclusion. 
I am not sure what the real difference between using a reserved label
and using a PW label is (except for the value of the label). Why is not
it better to use the already existing mechanism (PWE3) to demark between
the service provider and the customer information in the frame.
We need to address also he question of MPS-TP over MPLS. 
Best regards,
Nurit 


-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Drake, John E
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 21:15
To: stbryant@cisco.com
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

Stewart,

I think you're starting at the beginning of a long e-mail thread.  I
think we ended up with a pair of label stacks (service provider stack,
customer stack), applied recursively as needed, with each stack being be
manipulated independently. 

The presence of a customer MPLS packet with its label stack, as opposed
to a PWE packet or an IP packet, would be indicated either by a unique
value or values in the first nibble of the customer packet (i.e., the
first nibble of the top label cannot have any of the currently defined
values), or with a reserved bottom most label (payload is MPLS) in the
service provider stack.

Thanks,

John 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com] 
>Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:01 AM
>To: Drake, John E
>Cc: Ben Niven-Jenkins; mpls-interop@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Drake, John E wrote:
>>  
>>
>>   
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:41 PM
>>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>
>>> Colleagues,
>>>
>>> What's the current view of how to support MPLS over MPLS-TP?
>>>
>>> Do we put a PW in the middle (like draft-bryant) or do we just use 
>>> the label stack and have MPLS directly over MPLS-TP?
>>>     
>>
>> JD:  I always thought this was a terrible idea. 
>John, which one or both?
>
>>  Since MPLS-TP is a
>> particular MPLS profile and since we said that the MPLS dataplane 
>> wouldn't be touched, I think we would either add entries to 
>the stack 
>> (MPLS), or place an IP packet after the stack (IP).
>>   
>PWs run over MPLS and don't often carry IP, at least not 
>directly, so PW after the stack is also allowed.
>
>MPLS-TP is a profile of PW over MPLS, so using an intermediate 
>PW of some kind is within scope.
>
>The argument for greater isolation than is achieved by simply 
>pushing more labels comes from the service provider community. 
>We therefore need to determine from them whether that are 
>happy with a single contiguous label stack in the MPLS-TP 
>carriers case. If they are, then that is the way to go.
>If they are not, we need to design an encapsulation that gives 
>them the degree of isolation they are looking for.
>
>Stewart
>
>
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From: Ben Niven-Jenkins <benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com>
To: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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How does using a new first nibble Vs a reserved bottom label compare with
existing implementation behaviour?

Will an existing implementation discard both variants?

Ben



On 25/01/2009 19:15, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> wrote:

> Stewart,
> 
> I think you're starting at the beginning of a long e-mail thread.  I
> think we ended up with a pair of label stacks (service provider stack,
> customer stack), applied recursively as needed, with each stack being be
> manipulated independently.
> 
> The presence of a customer MPLS packet with its label stack, as opposed
> to a PWE packet or an IP packet, would be indicated either by a unique
> value or values in the first nibble of the customer packet (i.e., the
> first nibble of the top label cannot have any of the currently defined
> values), or with a reserved bottom most label (payload is MPLS) in the
> service provider stack.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:01 AM
>> To: Drake, John E
>> Cc: Ben Niven-Jenkins; mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> Drake, John E wrote:
>>>  
>>> 
>>>   
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> Colleagues,
>>>> 
>>>> What's the current view of how to support MPLS over MPLS-TP?
>>>> 
>>>> Do we put a PW in the middle (like draft-bryant) or do we just use
>>>> the label stack and have MPLS directly over MPLS-TP?
>>>>     
>>> 
>>> JD:  I always thought this was a terrible idea.
>> John, which one or both?
>> 
>>>  Since MPLS-TP is a
>>> particular MPLS profile and since we said that the MPLS dataplane
>>> wouldn't be touched, I think we would either add entries to
>> the stack 
>>> (MPLS), or place an IP packet after the stack (IP).
>>>   
>> PWs run over MPLS and don't often carry IP, at least not
>> directly, so PW after the stack is also allowed.
>> 
>> MPLS-TP is a profile of PW over MPLS, so using an intermediate
>> PW of some kind is within scope.
>> 
>> The argument for greater isolation than is achieved by simply
>> pushing more labels comes from the service provider community.
>> We therefore need to determine from them whether that are
>> happy with a single contiguous label stack in the MPLS-TP
>> carriers case. If they are, then that is the way to go.
>> If they are not, we need to design an encapsulation that gives
>> them the degree of isolation they are looking for.
>> 
>> Stewart
>> 
>> 

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All,

we have agreed with our ADs that the mpl-tp@ietf.org shall be used
as the consensus list for mpls-tp related drafts and issues.

We will still send generic announcements lie this one or working
group last cal to the relevant working group mailing lists, but the
discussions should be taken to the mpls-tp list. (Cross-) working
group consensus will be decided based on the discussion on the
mpls-tp list.

/Loa
-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu


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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "Ben Niven-Jenkins" <benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Ben,

I think either is fine.

An LSP within a SP MPLS LSP would be established using either control
plane or management plane protocols, and it would be policy to not use
any of the defined values in the first nibble of that LSP's label.
(Another alternative would be to define a first nibble value that means
'MPLS LSP'.)  Intermediate nodes will only perform ECMP if the packet is
IPv4 or IPv6.

A new reserved label would only be used and understood by the SP MPLS
LSP endpoints and clients.  The language in RFC 3032 indicates that the
bottom most label should provide an indication of the payload type and
there are already implicit null labels defined for IPv4 and IPv6.  What
this is doing is effectively creating separate LSPs for each payload
type.

The only points of discussion are whether the ingress SP MPLS LSP
endpoint can set the label without help from the ingress client, which I
think is required, and whether a payload type indication is passed to
the egress client, which I think is required because if this isn't done
the reserved label is pretty useless.  I.e., clients care about the
payload type but the SP MPLS LSP endpoints don't.

Thanks,

John

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com] 
>Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:06 PM
>To: Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>How does using a new first nibble Vs a reserved bottom label 
>compare with existing implementation behaviour?
>
>Will an existing implementation discard both variants?
>
>Ben
>
>
>
>On 25/01/2009 19:15, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> wrote:
>
>> Stewart,
>> 
>> I think you're starting at the beginning of a long e-mail thread.  I 
>> think we ended up with a pair of label stacks (service 
>provider stack, 
>> customer stack), applied recursively as needed, with each 
>stack being 
>> be manipulated independently.
>> 
>> The presence of a customer MPLS packet with its label stack, as 
>> opposed to a PWE packet or an IP packet, would be indicated 
>either by 
>> a unique value or values in the first nibble of the customer packet 
>> (i.e., the first nibble of the top label cannot have any of the 
>> currently defined values), or with a reserved bottom most label 
>> (payload is MPLS) in the service provider stack.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> John
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:01 AM
>>> To: Drake, John E
>>> Cc: Ben Niven-Jenkins; mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> Drake, John E wrote:
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>> 
>>>>> Colleagues,
>>>>> 
>>>>> What's the current view of how to support MPLS over MPLS-TP?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Do we put a PW in the middle (like draft-bryant) or do we 
>just use 
>>>>> the label stack and have MPLS directly over MPLS-TP?
>>>>>     
>>>> 
>>>> JD:  I always thought this was a terrible idea.
>>> John, which one or both?
>>> 
>>>>  Since MPLS-TP is a
>>>> particular MPLS profile and since we said that the MPLS dataplane 
>>>> wouldn't be touched, I think we would either add entries to
>>> the stack
>>>> (MPLS), or place an IP packet after the stack (IP).
>>>>   
>>> PWs run over MPLS and don't often carry IP, at least not 
>directly, so 
>>> PW after the stack is also allowed.
>>> 
>>> MPLS-TP is a profile of PW over MPLS, so using an 
>intermediate PW of 
>>> some kind is within scope.
>>> 
>>> The argument for greater isolation than is achieved by 
>simply pushing 
>>> more labels comes from the service provider community.
>>> We therefore need to determine from them whether that are 
>happy with 
>>> a single contiguous label stack in the MPLS-TP carriers 
>case. If they 
>>> are, then that is the way to go.
>>> If they are not, we need to design an encapsulation that gives them 
>>> the degree of isolation they are looking for.
>>> 
>>> Stewart
>>> 
>>> 
>
>
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From: Ben Niven-Jenkins <benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com>
To: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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John,

I get all that.  What I was thinking was more, if I have an existing MPLS
router somewhere that doesn't have MPLS/MPLS-TP over MPLS/MPLS-TP
implemented (or a MPLS/MPLS-TP router that doesn't have MPLS-TP enabled),
what will it do with one of these packets?

If it doesn't understand it it should drop it.  For a reserved label I
assume the default is to drop packets with labels that are not understood.
I do not know if that is the same for the 1st nibble.

Ben



On 26/01/2009 14:30, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> wrote:

> Ben,
> 
> I think either is fine.
> 
> An LSP within a SP MPLS LSP would be established using either control
> plane or management plane protocols, and it would be policy to not use
> any of the defined values in the first nibble of that LSP's label.
> (Another alternative would be to define a first nibble value that means
> 'MPLS LSP'.)  Intermediate nodes will only perform ECMP if the packet is
> IPv4 or IPv6.
> 
> A new reserved label would only be used and understood by the SP MPLS
> LSP endpoints and clients.  The language in RFC 3032 indicates that the
> bottom most label should provide an indication of the payload type and
> there are already implicit null labels defined for IPv4 and IPv6.  What
> this is doing is effectively creating separate LSPs for each payload
> type.
> 
> The only points of discussion are whether the ingress SP MPLS LSP
> endpoint can set the label without help from the ingress client, which I
> think is required, and whether a payload type indication is passed to
> the egress client, which I think is required because if this isn't done
> the reserved label is pretty useless.  I.e., clients care about the
> payload type but the SP MPLS LSP endpoints don't.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:06 PM
>> To: Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> How does using a new first nibble Vs a reserved bottom label
>> compare with existing implementation behaviour?
>> 
>> Will an existing implementation discard both variants?
>> 
>> Ben
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 25/01/2009 19:15, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Stewart,
>>> 
>>> I think you're starting at the beginning of a long e-mail thread.  I
>>> think we ended up with a pair of label stacks (service
>> provider stack, 
>>> customer stack), applied recursively as needed, with each
>> stack being 
>>> be manipulated independently.
>>> 
>>> The presence of a customer MPLS packet with its label stack, as
>>> opposed to a PWE packet or an IP packet, would be indicated
>> either by 
>>> a unique value or values in the first nibble of the customer packet
>>> (i.e., the first nibble of the top label cannot have any of the
>>> currently defined values), or with a reserved bottom most label
>>> (payload is MPLS) in the service provider stack.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:01 AM
>>>> To: Drake, John E
>>>> Cc: Ben Niven-Jenkins; mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> Drake, John E wrote:
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>>   
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>>>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Colleagues,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What's the current view of how to support MPLS over MPLS-TP?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Do we put a PW in the middle (like draft-bryant) or do we
>> just use 
>>>>>> the label stack and have MPLS directly over MPLS-TP?
>>>>>>     
>>>>> 
>>>>> JD:  I always thought this was a terrible idea.
>>>> John, which one or both?
>>>> 
>>>>>  Since MPLS-TP is a
>>>>> particular MPLS profile and since we said that the MPLS dataplane
>>>>> wouldn't be touched, I think we would either add entries to
>>>> the stack
>>>>> (MPLS), or place an IP packet after the stack (IP).
>>>>>   
>>>> PWs run over MPLS and don't often carry IP, at least not
>> directly, so 
>>>> PW after the stack is also allowed.
>>>> 
>>>> MPLS-TP is a profile of PW over MPLS, so using an
>> intermediate PW of
>>>> some kind is within scope.
>>>> 
>>>> The argument for greater isolation than is achieved by
>> simply pushing 
>>>> more labels comes from the service provider community.
>>>> We therefore need to determine from them whether that are
>> happy with 
>>>> a single contiguous label stack in the MPLS-TP carriers
>> case. If they 
>>>> are, then that is the way to go.
>>>> If they are not, we need to design an encapsulation that gives them
>>>> the degree of isolation they are looking for.
>>>> 
>>>> Stewart
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> 

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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Comments inline. 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) 
>[mailto:nurit.sprecher@nsn.com] 
>Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:36 AM
>To: Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Hi John,
>As a matter of fact, as I recall we had a long discussion on 
>this issue on the mailing list but with no real conclusion. 
>I am not sure what the real difference between using a 
>reserved label and using a PW label is (except for the value 
>of the label). Why is not it better to use the already 
>existing mechanism (PWE3) to demark between the service 
>provider and the customer information in the frame.
>We need to address also he question of MPS-TP over MPLS. 
>Best regards,
>Nurit 

JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload over
an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.

This is an e-mail I sent to Andy Malis on Dec 11th, to which he
expressed agreement:

Andy,

Great.  So, it is up to the client endpoints of the MPLS TP LSP to
understand the payload contents and we could have as payloads, for
example, MPLS packets with their own label stack, IP packets, or
ethernet PW packets which in turn contain, for example, MPLS packets or
IP packets.

Thanks,

John   
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Drake, John E
>Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 21:15
>To: stbryant@cisco.com
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Stewart,
>
>I think you're starting at the beginning of a long e-mail 
>thread.  I think we ended up with a pair of label stacks 
>(service provider stack, customer stack), applied recursively 
>as needed, with each stack being be manipulated independently. 
>
>The presence of a customer MPLS packet with its label stack, 
>as opposed to a PWE packet or an IP packet, would be indicated 
>either by a unique value or values in the first nibble of the 
>customer packet (i.e., the first nibble of the top label 
>cannot have any of the currently defined values), or with a 
>reserved bottom most label (payload is MPLS) in the service 
>provider stack.
>
>Thanks,
>
>John 
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
>>Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:01 AM
>>To: Drake, John E
>>Cc: Ben Niven-Jenkins; mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>>Drake, John E wrote:
>>>  
>>>
>>>   
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>
>>>> Colleagues,
>>>>
>>>> What's the current view of how to support MPLS over MPLS-TP?
>>>>
>>>> Do we put a PW in the middle (like draft-bryant) or do we just use 
>>>> the label stack and have MPLS directly over MPLS-TP?
>>>>     
>>>
>>> JD:  I always thought this was a terrible idea. 
>>John, which one or both?
>>
>>>  Since MPLS-TP is a
>>> particular MPLS profile and since we said that the MPLS dataplane 
>>> wouldn't be touched, I think we would either add entries to
>>the stack
>>> (MPLS), or place an IP packet after the stack (IP).
>>>   
>>PWs run over MPLS and don't often carry IP, at least not directly, so 
>>PW after the stack is also allowed.
>>
>>MPLS-TP is a profile of PW over MPLS, so using an intermediate PW of 
>>some kind is within scope.
>>
>>The argument for greater isolation than is achieved by simply pushing 
>>more labels comes from the service provider community.
>>We therefore need to determine from them whether that are 
>happy with a 
>>single contiguous label stack in the MPLS-TP carriers case. If they 
>>are, then that is the way to go.
>>If they are not, we need to design an encapsulation that 
>gives them the 
>>degree of isolation they are looking for.
>>
>>Stewart
>>
>>
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Ben,

Are you talking about intermediate or endpoint routers?  I was assuming
that the endpoint routers would need to be upgraded, and that control
plane or management plane protocols would ensure that they were.  If an
egress router were not, presumably it would would drop the packets.

As I tried to indicate in my e-mail, an intermediate router would be
oblivious to either scheme.

Thanks,

John  

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com] 
>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 6:42 AM
>To: Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>John,
>
>I get all that.  What I was thinking was more, if I have an 
>existing MPLS router somewhere that doesn't have MPLS/MPLS-TP 
>over MPLS/MPLS-TP implemented (or a MPLS/MPLS-TP router that 
>doesn't have MPLS-TP enabled), what will it do with one of 
>these packets?
>
>If it doesn't understand it it should drop it.  For a reserved 
>label I assume the default is to drop packets with labels that 
>are not understood.
>I do not know if that is the same for the 1st nibble.
>
>Ben
>
>
>
>On 26/01/2009 14:30, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> wrote:
>
>> Ben,
>> 
>> I think either is fine.
>> 
>> An LSP within a SP MPLS LSP would be established using 
>either control 
>> plane or management plane protocols, and it would be policy 
>to not use 
>> any of the defined values in the first nibble of that LSP's label.
>> (Another alternative would be to define a first nibble value that 
>> means 'MPLS LSP'.)  Intermediate nodes will only perform ECMP if the 
>> packet is
>> IPv4 or IPv6.
>> 
>> A new reserved label would only be used and understood by 
>the SP MPLS 
>> LSP endpoints and clients.  The language in RFC 3032 indicates that 
>> the bottom most label should provide an indication of the 
>payload type 
>> and there are already implicit null labels defined for IPv4 
>and IPv6.  
>> What this is doing is effectively creating separate LSPs for each 
>> payload type.
>> 
>> The only points of discussion are whether the ingress SP MPLS LSP 
>> endpoint can set the label without help from the ingress 
>client, which 
>> I think is required, and whether a payload type indication is passed 
>> to the egress client, which I think is required because if 
>this isn't 
>> done the reserved label is pretty useless.  I.e., clients care about 
>> the payload type but the SP MPLS LSP endpoints don't.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> John
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com]
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:06 PM
>>> To: Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> How does using a new first nibble Vs a reserved bottom 
>label compare 
>>> with existing implementation behaviour?
>>> 
>>> Will an existing implementation discard both variants?
>>> 
>>> Ben
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 25/01/2009 19:15, "Drake, John E" 
><John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Stewart,
>>>> 
>>>> I think you're starting at the beginning of a long e-mail 
>thread.  I 
>>>> think we ended up with a pair of label stacks (service
>>> provider stack,
>>>> customer stack), applied recursively as needed, with each
>>> stack being
>>>> be manipulated independently.
>>>> 
>>>> The presence of a customer MPLS packet with its label stack, as 
>>>> opposed to a PWE packet or an IP packet, would be indicated
>>> either by
>>>> a unique value or values in the first nibble of the 
>customer packet 
>>>> (i.e., the first nibble of the top label cannot have any of the 
>>>> currently defined values), or with a reserved bottom most label 
>>>> (payload is MPLS) in the service provider stack.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> John
>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:01 AM
>>>>> To: Drake, John E
>>>>> Cc: Ben Niven-Jenkins; mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>> 
>>>>> Drake, John E wrote:
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>>>>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Colleagues,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> What's the current view of how to support MPLS over MPLS-TP?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Do we put a PW in the middle (like draft-bryant) or do we
>>> just use
>>>>>>> the label stack and have MPLS directly over MPLS-TP?
>>>>>>>     
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> JD:  I always thought this was a terrible idea.
>>>>> John, which one or both?
>>>>> 
>>>>>>  Since MPLS-TP is a
>>>>>> particular MPLS profile and since we said that the MPLS 
>dataplane 
>>>>>> wouldn't be touched, I think we would either add entries to
>>>>> the stack
>>>>>> (MPLS), or place an IP packet after the stack (IP).
>>>>>>   
>>>>> PWs run over MPLS and don't often carry IP, at least not
>>> directly, so
>>>>> PW after the stack is also allowed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> MPLS-TP is a profile of PW over MPLS, so using an
>>> intermediate PW of
>>>>> some kind is within scope.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The argument for greater isolation than is achieved by
>>> simply pushing
>>>>> more labels comes from the service provider community.
>>>>> We therefore need to determine from them whether that are
>>> happy with
>>>>> a single contiguous label stack in the MPLS-TP carriers
>>> case. If they
>>>>> are, then that is the way to go.
>>>>> If they are not, we need to design an encapsulation that 
>gives them 
>>>>> the degree of isolation they are looking for.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Stewart
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>
>
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From: "LEVRAU, LIEVEN (LIEVEN)" <llevrau@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, MEAD team <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:21:27 +0100
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Loa et all.


draft-andersson-mpls-tp-oam-def       (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
[ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc
  	
draft-beller-mpls-tp-gach-dcn 	      (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
[ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc
draft-boutros-mpls-tp-cv              (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
 [ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc

draft-boutros-mpls-tp-fault           (accept as a MEAD team doc?) 	
[ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc

draft-boutros-mpls-tp-loopback 	      (comments and review need!) 	
[ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc

draft-boutros-mpls-tp-performance     (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
[ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc
	
draft-bryant-mpls-tp-ach-tlv          (accept as a MEAD team doc?) 	
[ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc

draft-busi-mpls-tp-oam-framework      (update based on Ipswich                                     discussion!) 
[ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc
	
draft-gray-mpls-tp-nm-req             (accept as a wg doc!)

draft-ietf-mpls-tp-framework          (prepare for a wg last call, after
                                        the tp-requirements are wg last
                                        called)
[ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc
draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements   (we need to get existing comments
                                        written down, we will allow until
                                        Friday Jan 30 to do this, after
                                        that we'll prepare the doc for wg
                                        last call)
 [ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc
draft-ietf-mpls-tp-requirements       (prepare for wg last call)

draft-martinotti-mpls-tp-interworking (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
[ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc
 	
draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-oam-analysis   (update as soon as the
                                        oam-requirements are stable)
draft-sprecher-mpls-tp-survive-fwk    (document has expired and should
                                        be republished)
[ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc
draft-yang-mpls-tp-ring-protection
-analysis                             (accept as a MEAD team doc?)
[ll>] accept as a MEAD team doc

As a member of the MEAD team you are expected to respond to the
"accept as a MEAD team doc"?

As a a MEAD team member you are expected to supply your comments on
draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements on Fri Jan 30, the latest.

As an editor you are supposed to take the action (when the time is
right) for the other document.

A reminder:

Becoming a MEAD team document means that there a strong element
in that draft that the MEAD needs to coordinate, it won't stop
us from splitting or merge documents, just that we will do so
in a coordinated way.

Becoming wg documents means positive response to three questions.

- does this document address a problem that the wg needs to
   solve
- is this document a good enough start to solve this problem
- is it within wg charter

/Loa


-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu


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Adrian,

Adrian Farrel wrote:
> Hi Loa,

<snip>
> 
>> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-requirements   (we need to get existing comments
>>                                        written down, we will allow until
>>                                        Friday Jan 30 to do this, after
>>                                        that we'll prepare the doc for wg
>>                                        last call)
> 
> Sorry, is this a last call for comments that need to be in before a last 
> call for comments can be issued?

no - this is not "last call comments" I just want to reach a point where
we can produce a document that is as stable as possible. Today we have
lots of requirements floating around, and some of them (as you said in
your consensus (lack of discussion). The date is just here to help the
editors get as much as possible in.

/Loa
> 
</snip>
> 
> Adrian

-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu


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Loa,

Should we no longer post technical issues to the mpls-interop list? I
just want to make sure messages to the right place.

Thanks,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:43 AM
To: MEAD team
Subject: [Mpls-interop] the mpls-tp mailing list is the consensus list
formpls-tp isseus

All,

we have agreed with our ADs that the mpl-tp@ietf.org shall be used
as the consensus list for mpls-tp related drafts and issues.

We will still send generic announcements lie this one or working
group last cal to the relevant working group mailing lists, but the
discussions should be taken to the mpls-tp list. (Cross-) working
group consensus will be decided based on the discussion on the
mpls-tp list.

/Loa
-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:
loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu


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From: David Sinicrope <euddasi@redback.com>
To: Andy Malis <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, MEAD team <mpls-interop@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:52:44 -0800
Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] the mpls-tp mailing list is the consensus list formpls-tp isseus
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Hi Andy,
The welcome message below to the MEAD Team (MPLS-Interop) list is my unders=
tanding.

Welcome to the MPLS-Interoperability Design Team (MEAD Team) email list.  T=
he MPLS-Interop list is a private list for use by the IETF MEAD Team to dis=
cuss MPLS-TP progression and coordination with the ITU-T.  A public list fo=
r MPLS-TP discussion has been established and should be used for discussing=
 MPLS-TP technical issues with the community.  You also will be added to th=
e MEAD Team Wiki access list.  The MEAD Team wiki can be found at http://wi=
ki.tools.ietf.org/misc/mpls-interop.  You will be prompted for a user name =
ad password which can be obtained via http://merlot.tools.ietf.org/newlogin=
 (IETF Tools Get Passwd link)

Dave
On 1/26/09 10:49 AM, "Andy Malis" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com> wrote:

Loa,

Should we no longer post technical issues to the mpls-interop list? I
just want to make sure messages to the right place.

Thanks,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:43 AM
To: MEAD team
Subject: [Mpls-interop] the mpls-tp mailing list is the consensus list
formpls-tp isseus

All,

we have agreed with our ADs that the mpl-tp@ietf.org shall be used
as the consensus list for mpls-tp related drafts and issues.

We will still send generic announcements lie this one or working
group last cal to the relevant working group mailing lists, but the
discussions should be taken to the mpls-tp list. (Cross-) working
group consensus will be decided based on the discussion on the
mpls-tp list.

/Loa
--


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:
loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu


_______________________________________________
Mpls-interop mailing list
Mpls-interop@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
_______________________________________________
Mpls-interop mailing list
Mpls-interop@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop


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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [Mpls-interop] the mpls-tp mailing list is the consensus list fo=
rmpls-tp isseus</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:=
11pt'>Hi Andy,<BR>
The welcome message below to the MEAD Team (MPLS-Interop) list is my unders=
tanding.<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT FACE=3D"Lucida Grande"><SPAN STYLE=3D'=
font-size:8pt'>Welcome to the MPLS-Interoperability Design Team (MEAD Team)=
 email list. &nbsp;The MPLS-Interop list is a private list for use by the I=
ETF MEAD Team to discuss MPLS-TP progression and coordination with the ITU-=
T. &nbsp;A public list for MPLS-TP discussion has been established and shou=
ld be used for discussing MPLS-TP technical issues with the community. &nbs=
p;You also will be added to the MEAD Team Wiki access list. &nbsp;The MEAD =
Team wiki can be found at <a href=3D"http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/misc/mpls-i=
nterop">http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/misc/mpls-interop</a>. &nbsp;You will be=
 prompted for a user name ad password which can be obtained via <a href=3D"=
http://merlot.tools.ietf.org/newlogin">http://merlot.tools.ietf.org/newlogi=
n</a> (IETF Tools Get Passwd link)<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPA=
N STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
Dave<BR>
On 1/26/09 10:49 AM, &quot;Andy Malis&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"andrew.g.malis@v=
erizon.com">andrew.g.malis@verizon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"=
><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Loa,<BR>
<BR>
Should we no longer post technical issues to the mpls-interop list? I<BR>
just want to make sure messages to the right place.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: <a href=3D"mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org">mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a><BR>
[<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mpls-interop-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson<BR>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:43 AM<BR>
To: MEAD team<BR>
Subject: [Mpls-interop] the mpls-tp mailing list is the consensus list<BR>
formpls-tp isseus<BR>
<BR>
All,<BR>
<BR>
we have agreed with our ADs that the <a href=3D"mpl-tp@ietf.org">mpl-tp@iet=
f.org</a> shall be used<BR>
as the consensus list for mpls-tp related drafts and issues.<BR>
<BR>
We will still send generic announcements lie this one or working<BR>
group last cal to the relevant working group mailing lists, but the<BR>
discussions should be taken to the mpls-tp list. (Cross-) working<BR>
group consensus will be decided based on the discussion on the<BR>
mpls-tp list.<BR>
<BR>
/Loa<BR>
--<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loa Andersson<BR>
<BR>
Sr Strategy and Standards Manager<BR>
Ericsson /// &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;phone: &nbsp;+46 8 632 77 14<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;email:<BR>
<a href=3D"loa.andersson@ericsson.com">loa.andersson@ericsson.com</a><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"loa.and=
ersson@redback.com">loa.andersson@redback.com</a><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"loa@pi.=
nu">loa@pi.nu</a><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
Mpls-interop mailing list<BR>
<a href=3D"Mpls-interop@ietf.org">Mpls-interop@ietf.org</a><BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop</a><BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
Mpls-interop mailing list<BR>
<a href=3D"Mpls-interop@ietf.org">Mpls-interop@ietf.org</a><BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop</a><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
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From mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Jan 26 07:57:14 2009
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Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:56:50 +0100
From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] the mpls-tp mailing list is the consensus list for mpls-tp isseus
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Andy,

this is a good question, the role of the MEAD team is to drive and
coordinate MPLS-TP in genral and MPLS-TP documents in particular.

So in the early stage when we try to decide what we think about and
want to do with particular document technical discussiona on
documents are fine, but we should strive to get this discussion on
to the mpls-tp list with the intention to build a broad consensus
among the folks subscribed to that list.

/Loa

Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:
> Loa,
> 
> Should we no longer post technical issues to the mpls-interop list? I
> just want to make sure messages to the right place.
> 
> Thanks,
> Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:43 AM
> To: MEAD team
> Subject: [Mpls-interop] the mpls-tp mailing list is the consensus list
> formpls-tp isseus
> 
> All,
> 
> we have agreed with our ADs that the mpl-tp@ietf.org shall be used
> as the consensus list for mpls-tp related drafts and issues.
> 
> We will still send generic announcements lie this one or working
> group last cal to the relevant working group mailing lists, but the
> discussions should be taken to the mpls-tp list. (Cross-) working
> group consensus will be decided based on the discussion on the
> mpls-tp list.
> 
> /Loa

-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu


_______________________________________________
Mpls-interop mailing list
Mpls-interop@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop

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Drake, John E wrote:
>  
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) 
>> [mailto:nurit.sprecher@nsn.com] 
>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:55 AM
>> To: ext Ben Niven-Jenkins; mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>> The first option also allows you to have better trouble 
>> shooting in case of a problem (thanks to the clear separation).
>>     
>
> JD:  Regardless of whether you have MPLS TP/PW/MPLS *or* MPLS TP/MPLS,
> you will have two label stacks.  The only difference is whether the last
> label in the provider's stack is an PW label *or* an MPLS label.  This
> was the point in Andy's first e-mail, which as I read it, said that
> there was nothing magic about that label being a PW label.
>   
John

The more important difference is that in MPLS-TP  the PW label is followed
by a CW which  is an object that cannot be forwarded.

Stewart
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:
> How is it any better for a PW? You still have a label at the top of the
> stack. There are two scenarios:
>
> 1. A label is popped at the MPLS-TP layer that shouldn't have been
>
> That's either going to expose another label at that layer that won't be
> have the proper context, or the start of an IP packet that'll be
> misinterpreted as a label (since MPLS-TP switches presumably won't know
> how to forward IP, at least in the fast path). In either case, if
> there's a matching label allocation to the 20 bits in the header, then
> it'll be forwarded out a random interface, or dropped if there's no
> match.
>   
The packet starts out looking like this

LSP-label/PW-label/CW

If it is being forwarded incorrectly on the LSP label it can only exit 
the network
at PE that also has a PW configured on that PW label. If labels were
to be randomly allocated the probability of a chain of matches would
be low - at least an improvement by the square of the probability of a hit
compared to the single label case.

If it is being forwarded incorrectly on the PW-label it cannot exit the 
n/w via
a PW because there is no PW label to pop, and it cannot exit as an IP
pkt because the first nibble is 0.

Stewart



> 2. An MPLS-TP label wasn't popped that should have been
>
> That'll expose (probably) the bottom-most MPLS-TP label to the IP/MPLS
> client router. Again, what happens next depends on how that label is
> interpreted by the router.
>
> Either way, how are things any better if you use a PW label?
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 3:03 PM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Adrian Farrel; Drake, John E;
> mpls-interop@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
> Andy,
>
>
> On 11/12/2008 15:31, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
> wrote:
>   
>> AM> The intention would be that the MPLS-TP EOS bit would only be
>> encountered at boundary the MPLS-TP network, and the payload would
>> delivered to the client to do with as it desires (and expects),
>>     
> whether
>   
>> it's IP to forward, MPLS to switch using router-allocated labels, PW
>> contents, or something else entirely. To the client, there should be
>>     
> no
>   
>> difference (at some layer of abstraction above the interface details)
>> between using MPLS-TP for transport and POS or GFP encapsulation for
>> transport.
>>     
>
> Yes, but my concern is that IP & MPLS may well be 'recognised' in the
> network core and if something happened (e.g. Erroneous label pop) to
> expose
> them they could be forwarded natively in error.  Other traffic types are
> unlikely to have this happen as the network core is unlikely to support
> natively forwarding them.
>
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>   

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Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:
> Himanshu,
>
> If things are misconfigured that badly, why couldn't the PW control word be misinterpreted as a label if too many labels were popped at the MPLS-TP layer?
>   
If sequence numbers were not in use - and I can't see why they would be -
TTL would be zero which would cause the pkt to be dropped.

Stewart

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Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:
> Himanshu,
>
> I still don't get what protection the PW gives you over not having the PW.
>
>   
The CW cannot get confused with an IP pkt or a label that can take the 
pkt anywhere.
It starts with four zeros and ends with 16 zeros (assuming no sequence 
numbers).

That means it's not IP and its TTL is zero. That kills it on the spot.

Stewart


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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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John
>
> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload over
> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.

I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test methodology :)

The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW is expected.

Stewart
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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
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>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com] 
>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 7:57 AM
>To: Drake, John E
>Cc: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); ext Ben 
>Niven-Jenkins; mpls-interop@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Drake, John E wrote:
>>  
>>
>>   
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) 
>>> [mailto:nurit.sprecher@nsn.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:55 AM
>>> To: ext Ben Niven-Jenkins; mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>
>>> The first option also allows you to have better trouble shooting in 
>>> case of a problem (thanks to the clear separation).
>>>     
>>
>> JD:  Regardless of whether you have MPLS TP/PW/MPLS *or* 
>MPLS TP/MPLS, 
>> you will have two label stacks.  The only difference is whether the 
>> last label in the provider's stack is an PW label *or* an 
>MPLS label.  
>> This was the point in Andy's first e-mail, which as I read it, said 
>> that there was nothing magic about that label being a PW label.
>>   
>John
>
>The more important difference is that in MPLS-TP  the PW label 
>is followed by a CW which  is an object that cannot be forwarded.
>
>Stewart

JD:  Stewart, in either case, the 'end of stack' bit will be set.  I
don't see how you can assert that an implementation which does not
respect the 'end of stack' bit will consider the CW to be sacrosanct.

>
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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Please see my other e-mail reply to you.  You cannot assert apriori what
a rogue implementation will do.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com] 
>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:26 AM
>To: Drake, John E
>Cc: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); 
>mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>John
>>
>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload 
>> over an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>
>I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test 
>methodology :)
>
>The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW 
>is expected.
>
>Stewart
>
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From: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
To: <stbryant@cisco.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Stewart,

Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...

I've been thinking some more about this issue since our discussion last
week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there was whether what we gain
from putting a PW label and CW in the stack to separate the MPLS-TP
stack and the MPLS stack are worth the cost:

- 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
- LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label

As I see it, what we gain is:

- a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S bit)
- a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order (although you
have been arguing against using the serial number in your last few
emails)
- a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming that a serial
number is not used) to "poison the stack" in case there's a provisioning
problem

So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in the
unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint switch. I'm
still not convinced that it's worth the cost, although I could possibly
still be convinced. Are there any other advantages that I've missed?

Cheers,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
To: Drake, John E
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

John
>
> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
over
> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.

I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test methodology :)

The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW is
expected.

Stewart
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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Andy,

Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence number
field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.

Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.

Thanks,

John  

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com] 
>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Stewart,
>
>Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>
>I've been thinking some more about this issue since our 
>discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there 
>was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the 
>stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are 
>worth the cost:
>
>- 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>- LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>
>As I see it, what we gain is:
>
>- a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S bit)
>- a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order 
>(although you have been arguing against using the serial 
>number in your last few
>emails)
>- a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming 
>that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in 
>case there's a provisioning problem
>
>So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in 
>the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint 
>switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost, 
>although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any 
>other advantages that I've missed?
>
>Cheers,
>Andy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>To: Drake, John E
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>John
>>
>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>over
>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>
>I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test 
>methodology :)
>
>The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW 
>is expected.
>
>Stewart
>_______________________________________________
>Mpls-interop mailing list
>Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:
> Stewart,
>
> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>
> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our discussion last
> week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there was whether what we gain
> from putting a PW label and CW in the stack to separate the MPLS-TP
> stack and the MPLS stack are worth the cost:
>
> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>   
Except when you are statically configured.

> As I see it, what we gain is:
>
> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S bit)
> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order (although you
> have been arguing against using the serial number in your last few
> emails)
> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming that a serial
> number is not used) to "poison the stack" in case there's a provisioning
> problem
>
> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in the
> unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint switch. I'm
> still not convinced that it's worth the cost, although I could possibly
> still be convinced. Are there any other advantages that I've missed?
>
>
>   
Same label stack for OAM (0001 in CW  vs additional label 13).

Stewart









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References: <49392C0B.4090202@chello.nl>	<C565F5E6.F2C5%benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com><51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A01537442@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com><497C8CB0.8010201@cisco.com><51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016703A0@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com><077E41CFFD002C4CAB7DFA4386A5326435D72D@DEMUEXC014.nsn-intra.net><51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016703BE@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com> <497DE425.8030409@cisco.com> <01F652C8CDBE7D4EB7ED860698C6D97365A3F1@FHDP1LUMXCV24.us.one.verizon.com> <51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A0167044D@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com>
From: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
To: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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John,

This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new MPLS
PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make up the rules.

Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an MPLS
PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further arguments from
Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of using a PW). 

However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to run
MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary issue
here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order delivery, so it
has to avoid ECMP.

Cheers,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

Andy,

Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence number
field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.

Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.

Thanks,

John  

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com] 
>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Stewart,
>
>Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>
>I've been thinking some more about this issue since our 
>discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there 
>was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the 
>stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are 
>worth the cost:
>
>- 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>- LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>
>As I see it, what we gain is:
>
>- a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S bit)
>- a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order 
>(although you have been arguing against using the serial 
>number in your last few
>emails)
>- a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming 
>that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in 
>case there's a provisioning problem
>
>So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in 
>the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint 
>switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost, 
>although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any 
>other advantages that I've missed?
>
>Cheers,
>Andy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>To: Drake, John E
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>John
>>
>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>over
>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>
>I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test 
>methodology :)
>
>The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW 
>is expected.
>
>Stewart
>_______________________________________________
>Mpls-interop mailing list
>Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
_______________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
Thread-Index: Acl/0tJ4BRstxxuuTLKgX1YWyDJj1AAALr9wAACo3eAAACy98AAAYsKA
References: <49392C0B.4090202@chello.nl>	<C565F5E6.F2C5%benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com><51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A01537442@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com><497C8CB0.8010201@cisco.com><51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016703A0@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com><077E41CFFD002C4CAB7DFA4386A5326435D72D@DEMUEXC014.nsn-intra.net><51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016703BE@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com> <497DE425.8030409@cisco.com> <01F652C8CDBE7D4EB7ED860698C6D97365A3F1@FHDP1LUMXCV24.us.one.verizon.com> <51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A0167044D@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com> <01F652C8CDBE7D4EB7ED860698C6D97365A409@FHDP1LUMXCV24.us.one.verizon.com>
From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Andy,

I'm sorry, this is the first I have heard of a proposal to invent a new
PW type for transporting MPLS over MPLS.  However, it doesn't change my
opinion that it is totally useless, unless you are of the opinion that a
technology isn't complete until it includes PWs.

As I understand it, as long as the first nibble does not indicate that
the packet is either an IPv4 or IPv6 packet, ECMP will be disabled.  As
I indicated in my note to Ben, the control plane or management plane can
insure this requirement for any LSPs established over the SP MPLS LSP.

Thanks,

John
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com] 
>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:01 AM
>To: Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>John,
>
>This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a 
>new MPLS PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to 
>make up the rules.
>
>Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't 
>need an MPLS PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting 
>further arguments from Stewart or anyone else that wants to 
>argue in favor of using a PW). 
>
>However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we 
>wanted to run MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as 
>well). The primary issue here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would 
>require in-order delivery, so it has to avoid ECMP.
>
>Cheers,
>Andy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Andy,
>
>Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, 
>so its presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the 
>sequence number field may be used so that the bottom sixteen 
>bits may not be zero.
>
>Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that 
>does not respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>
>Thanks,
>
>John  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>>Stewart,
>>
>>Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>
>>I've been thinking some more about this issue since our 
>discussion last 
>>week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there was whether what we gain 
>>from putting a PW label and CW in the stack to separate the MPLS-TP 
>>stack and the MPLS stack are worth the cost:
>>
>>- 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>- LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>>
>>As I see it, what we gain is:
>>
>>- a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S bit)
>>- a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order (although 
>>you have been arguing against using the serial number in your last few
>>emails)
>>- a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming that a 
>>serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in case there's a 
>>provisioning problem
>>
>>So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in the 
>>unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint switch. I'm 
>>still not convinced that it's worth the cost, although I 
>could possibly 
>>still be convinced. Are there any other advantages that I've missed?
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Andy
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>To: Drake, John E
>>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>>John
>>>
>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>>over
>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>
>>I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test methodology 
>>:)
>>
>>The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW is 
>>expected.
>>
>>Stewart
>>_______________________________________________
>>Mpls-interop mailing list
>>Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>
>
_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop

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From: George Swallow <swallow@cisco.com>
To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or MPLS-TP.  However
if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of thousands of
devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well as all the control
and OAM depends on it.

So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and IP.  And if that
is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.

...George


On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
wrote:

> John,
> 
> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new MPLS
> PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make up the rules.
> 
> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an MPLS
> PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further arguments from
> Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of using a PW).
> 
> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to run
> MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary issue
> here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order delivery, so it
> has to avoid ECMP.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> 
> Andy,
> 
> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence number
> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
> 
> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> Stewart,
>> 
>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>> 
>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>> discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there
>> was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the
>> stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are
>> worth the cost:
>> 
>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>> 
>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>> 
>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S bit)
>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>> (although you have been arguing against using the serial
>> number in your last few
>> emails)
>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming
>> that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in
>> case there's a provisioning problem
>> 
>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in
>> the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>> switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost,
>> although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any
>> other advantages that I've missed?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>> To: Drake, John E
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> John
>>> 
>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>> over
>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>> 
>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>> methodology :)
>> 
>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW
>> is expected.
>> 
>> Stewart
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop

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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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George,

Are we not okay as long as we ensure that the first nibble of *any*
client MPLS label does not have the values '0', '1', '4' or '6'?  Or
better yet, define a new value that indicates 'payload is MPLS'?

Thanks,

John 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com] 
>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:48 AM
>To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or 
>MPLS-TP.  However if you want to run MPLS as it currently 
>exists in 10s of thousands of devices, then  you need a PW 
>that can carry IP as well as all the control and OAM depends on it.
>
>So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and 
>IP.  And if that is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
>
>...George
>
>
>On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" 
><andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
>wrote:
>
>> John,
>> 
>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new 
>> MPLS PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make 
>up the rules.
>> 
>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an 
>> MPLS PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further 
>arguments 
>> from Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of 
>using a PW).
>> 
>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to 
>> run MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary 
>> issue here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order 
>delivery, 
>> so it has to avoid ECMP.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> Andy,
>> 
>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its 
>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the 
>sequence number 
>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>> 
>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not 
>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> John
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> Stewart,
>>> 
>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>> 
>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our discussion 
>>> last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there was 
>whether what we 
>>> gain from putting a PW label and CW in the stack to separate the 
>>> MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are worth the cost:
>>> 
>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>>> 
>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>> 
>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with 
>the S bit)
>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order 
>(although 
>>> you have been arguing against using the serial number in your last 
>>> few
>>> emails)
>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming that a 
>>> serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in case there's a 
>>> provisioning problem
>>> 
>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in the 
>>> unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint switch. I'm 
>>> still not convinced that it's worth the cost, although I could 
>>> possibly still be convinced. Are there any other advantages 
>that I've 
>>> missed?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>> To: Drake, John E
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> John
>>>> 
>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>>> over
>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>> 
>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test 
>methodology 
>>> :)
>>> 
>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW is 
>>> expected.
>>> 
>>> Stewart
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
>
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From: George Swallow <swallow@cisco.com>
To: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Several points here.

First the reserve values you speak of are all reserved in the IP Protocol
number space.  I do not believe that the powers that be will be very please
with a proposal that says that we will use values that they may later define
as a new IP version.

Second, the we're okay happens only if I filter on the labels that the
client sends me.

I don't like the "better yet" as I want IP as well as MPLS.

...George


On 1/26/09 12:56 PM, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> wrote:

> George,
> 
> Are we not okay as long as we ensure that the first nibble of *any*
> client MPLS label does not have the values '0', '1', '4' or '6'?  Or
> better yet, define a new value that indicates 'payload is MPLS'?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:48 AM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or
>> MPLS-TP.  However if you want to run MPLS as it currently
>> exists in 10s of thousands of devices, then  you need a PW
>> that can carry IP as well as all the control and OAM depends on it.
>> 
>> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and
>> IP.  And if that is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
>> 
>> ...George
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> John,
>>> 
>>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new
>>> MPLS PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make
>> up the rules.
>>> 
>>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an
>>> MPLS PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further
>> arguments 
>>> from Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of
>> using a PW).
>>> 
>>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to
>>> run MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary
>>> issue here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order
>> delivery, 
>>> so it has to avoid ECMP.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> Andy,
>>> 
>>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
>>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the
>> sequence number 
>>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>>> 
>>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
>>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> Stewart,
>>>> 
>>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>>> 
>>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our discussion
>>>> last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there was
>> whether what we 
>>>> gain from putting a PW label and CW in the stack to separate the
>>>> MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are worth the cost:
>>>> 
>>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>>>> 
>>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>>> 
>>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with
>> the S bit)
>>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>> (although 
>>>> you have been arguing against using the serial number in your last
>>>> few
>>>> emails)
>>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming that a
>>>> serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in case there's a
>>>> provisioning problem
>>>> 
>>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in the
>>>> unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint switch. I'm
>>>> still not convinced that it's worth the cost, although I could
>>>> possibly still be convinced. Are there any other advantages
>> that I've 
>>>> missed?
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Andy
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>>> To: Drake, John E
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> John
>>>>> 
>>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>>>> over
>>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>>> 
>>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>> methodology 
>>>> :)
>>>> 
>>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW is
>>>> expected.
>>>> 
>>>> Stewart
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> 
>> 

_______________________________________________
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From: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
To: "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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George,

I think a picture may help here. This is the reference model that I have
in mind.

This is a traditional MPLS network that we operate now:

CE - PE - P(*) - PE -CE

Where P(*) is zero or more core provider routers.

With MPLS-TP, this picture changes to either of the following (where
T(*) is zero or more core MPLS-TP transport switches and TE is an edge
MPLS-TP transport switch):

CE - PE - P - TE - T(*) - TE - P - PE - CE 

- or -

CE - PE - TE - T(*) - TE - PE - CE

In either case, a T-T, T-TE, or TE-TE trunk uses an MPLS-TP label stack,
and the P-TE or PE-TE interfaces have MPLS on them, to be encapsulated
within MPLS-TP, so that MPLS-TP can transparently transport the MPLS
packets between the P or PE routers.

If we're all in agreement here on this model, then when you talk about
running MPLS as it currently exists, I don't think that's an issue,
since a T and TE are devices that don't yet exist in the marketplace,
and thus we are free to define their behavior, as long as that behavior
meets the MPLS-TP requirements draft.

Cheers,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 12:48 PM
To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or MPLS-TP.
However
if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of thousands of
devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well as all the
control
and OAM depends on it.

So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and IP.  And if
that
is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.

...George


On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
<andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
wrote:

> John,
> 
> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new
MPLS
> PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make up the rules.
> 
> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an
MPLS
> PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further arguments from
> Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of using a PW).
> 
> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to
run
> MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary issue
> here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order delivery, so it
> has to avoid ECMP.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> 
> Andy,
> 
> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence number
> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
> 
> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> Stewart,
>> 
>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>> 
>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>> discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there
>> was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the
>> stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are
>> worth the cost:
>> 
>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>> 
>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>> 
>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S bit)
>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>> (although you have been arguing against using the serial
>> number in your last few
>> emails)
>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming
>> that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in
>> case there's a provisioning problem
>> 
>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in
>> the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>> switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost,
>> although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any
>> other advantages that I've missed?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>> To: Drake, John E
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> John
>>> 
>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>> over
>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>> 
>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>> methodology :)
>> 
>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW
>> is expected.
>> 
>> Stewart
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop

_______________________________________________
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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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>-----Original Message-----
>From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com] 
>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 10:04 AM
>To: Drake, John E; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Several points here.
>
>First the reserve values you speak of are all reserved in the 
>IP Protocol number space.  I do not believe that the powers 
>that be will be very please with a proposal that says that we 
>will use values that they may later define as a new IP version.

JD:  Then how was PW able to get the values '0' and '1'?

>
>Second, the we're okay happens only if I filter on the labels 
>that the client sends me.

JD:  Who is 'I' and who is 'client'?  The endpoints will understand the
labels they have allocated, and it keeps intermediate nodes from
performing ECMP on MPLS payloads.  

>
>I don't like the "better yet" as I want IP as well as MPLS.

JD:  If one takes the position that MPLS is part of IP, then allocating
a nibble value to MPLS makes sense to me.  It also addresses the issue
you raised in your first paragraph, above, as well as your point about
running IP and MPLS (and PW) over the same SP MPLS LSP.
 
>
>...George
>
>
>On 1/26/09 12:56 PM, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> wrote:
>
>> George,
>> 
>> Are we not okay as long as we ensure that the first nibble of *any* 
>> client MPLS label does not have the values '0', '1', '4' or '6'?  Or 
>> better yet, define a new value that indicates 'payload is MPLS'?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> John
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:48 AM
>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod 
>HaSharon)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or 
>MPLS-TP.  
>>> However if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of 
>>> thousands of devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well 
>>> as all the control and OAM depends on it.
>>> 
>>> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and 
>IP.  And 
>>> if that is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
>>> 
>>> ...George
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
>>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> John,
>>>> 
>>>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new 
>>>> MPLS PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make
>>> up the rules.
>>>> 
>>>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an 
>>>> MPLS PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further
>>> arguments
>>>> from Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of
>>> using a PW).
>>>> 
>>>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we 
>wanted to 
>>>> run MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). 
>The primary 
>>>> issue here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order
>>> delivery,
>>>> so it has to avoid ECMP.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Andy
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod 
>HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> Andy,
>>>> 
>>>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet 
>PWs, so its 
>>>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the
>>> sequence number
>>>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>>>> 
>>>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation 
>that does not 
>>>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> John
>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod 
>>>>> HaSharon)
>>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>> 
>>>>> Stewart,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our 
>discussion 
>>>>> last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there was
>>> whether what we
>>>>> gain from putting a PW label and CW in the stack to separate the 
>>>>> MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are worth the cost:
>>>>> 
>>>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute 
>the PW label
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>>>> 
>>>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with
>>> the S bit)
>>>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>>> (although
>>>>> you have been arguing against using the serial number in 
>your last 
>>>>> few
>>>>> emails)
>>>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming that a 
>>>>> serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in case 
>there's a 
>>>>> provisioning problem
>>>>> 
>>>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the 
>stack in the 
>>>>> unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint 
>switch. I'm 
>>>>> still not convinced that it's worth the cost, although I could 
>>>>> possibly still be convinced. Are there any other advantages
>>> that I've
>>>>> missed?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Andy
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org 
>>>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>>>> To: Drake, John E
>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod 
>>>>> HaSharon)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>> 
>>>>> John
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an 
>MPLS payload
>>>>> over
>>>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>>> methodology
>>>>> :)
>>>>> 
>>>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW is 
>>>>> expected.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Stewart
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>> 
>>> 
>
>
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From: George Swallow <swallow@cisco.com>
To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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I don't understand the picture.  What is the link between the P(E) device
and the TE device?

...George


On 1/26/09 1:14 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
wrote:

> George,
> 
> I think a picture may help here. This is the reference model that I have
> in mind.
> 
> This is a traditional MPLS network that we operate now:
> 
> CE - PE - P(*) - PE -CE
> 
> Where P(*) is zero or more core provider routers.
> 
> With MPLS-TP, this picture changes to either of the following (where
> T(*) is zero or more core MPLS-TP transport switches and TE is an edge
> MPLS-TP transport switch):
> 
> CE - PE - P - TE - T(*) - TE - P - PE - CE
> 
> - or -
> 
> CE - PE - TE - T(*) - TE - PE - CE
> 
> In either case, a T-T, T-TE, or TE-TE trunk uses an MPLS-TP label stack,
> and the P-TE or PE-TE interfaces have MPLS on them, to be encapsulated
> within MPLS-TP, so that MPLS-TP can transparently transport the MPLS
> packets between the P or PE routers.
> 
> If we're all in agreement here on this model, then when you talk about
> running MPLS as it currently exists, I don't think that's an issue,
> since a T and TE are devices that don't yet exist in the marketplace,
> and thus we are free to define their behavior, as long as that behavior
> meets the MPLS-TP requirements draft.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 12:48 PM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> 
> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or MPLS-TP.
> However
> if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of thousands of
> devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well as all the
> control
> and OAM depends on it.
> 
> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and IP.  And if
> that
> is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
> 
> ...George
> 
> 
> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> John,
>> 
>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new
> MPLS
>> PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make up the rules.
>> 
>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an
> MPLS
>> PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further arguments from
>> Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of using a PW).
>> 
>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to
> run
>> MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary issue
>> here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order delivery, so it
>> has to avoid ECMP.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> Andy,
>> 
>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence number
>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>> 
>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> John  
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> Stewart,
>>> 
>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>> 
>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>>> discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there
>>> was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the
>>> stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are
>>> worth the cost:
>>> 
>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>>> 
>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>> 
>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S bit)
>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>>> (although you have been arguing against using the serial
>>> number in your last few
>>> emails)
>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming
>>> that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in
>>> case there's a provisioning problem
>>> 
>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in
>>> the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>>> switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost,
>>> although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any
>>> other advantages that I've missed?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>> To: Drake, John E
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> John
>>>> 
>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>>> over
>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>> 
>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>>> methodology :)
>>> 
>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW
>>> is expected.
>>> 
>>> Stewart
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> 

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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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On 1/26/09 1:15 PM, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> wrote:

>  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 10:04 AM
>> To: Drake, John E; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> Several points here.
>> 
>> First the reserve values you speak of are all reserved in the
>> IP Protocol number space.  I do not believe that the powers
>> that be will be very please with a proposal that says that we
>> will use values that they may later define as a new IP version.
> 
> JD:  Then how was PW able to get the values '0' and '1'?

We got the values reserved as part of getting the PW control word RFC
approved.  There is no notation that these belong to PW per se.  It simply
reserves them from ever being allocated.

>> Second, the we're okay happens only if I filter on the labels
>> that the client sends me.
> 
> JD:  Who is 'I' and who is 'client'?  The endpoints will understand the
> labels they have allocated, and it keeps intermediate nodes from
> performing ECMP on MPLS payloads.

The I is the server.  If the server network wants to make sure that nothing
will arrive that could be mistaken for IP or PW then it would need to filter
what the client sends.

Also, I should note that current implementation of Label allocators would
not be happy with new restrictions on what values can be used.  Nor would
most of us be happy about reducing the label space by 25%.

...George

>> I don't like the "better yet" as I want IP as well as MPLS.
> 
> JD:  If one takes the position that MPLS is part of IP, then allocating
> a nibble value to MPLS makes sense to me.  It also addresses the issue
> you raised in your first paragraph, above, as well as your point about
> running IP and MPLS (and PW) over the same SP MPLS LSP.
>  
>> 
>> ...George
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/26/09 12:56 PM, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> George,
>>> 
>>> Are we not okay as long as we ensure that the first nibble of *any*
>>> client MPLS label does not have the values '0', '1', '4' or '6'?  Or
>>> better yet, define a new value that indicates 'payload is MPLS'?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:48 AM
>>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
>> HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or
>> MPLS-TP.  
>>>> However if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of
>>>> thousands of devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well
>>>> as all the control and OAM depends on it.
>>>> 
>>>> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and
>> IP.  And 
>>>> if that is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
>>>> 
>>>> ...George
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
>>>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> John,
>>>>> 
>>>>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new
>>>>> MPLS PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make
>>>> up the rules.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an
>>>>> MPLS PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further
>>>> arguments
>>>>> from Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of
>>>> using a PW).
>>>>> 
>>>>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we
>> wanted to 
>>>>> run MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well).
>> The primary 
>>>>> issue here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order
>>>> delivery,
>>>>> so it has to avoid ECMP.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Andy
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>>>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
>> HaSharon)
>>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>> 
>>>>> Andy,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet
>> PWs, so its 
>>>>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the
>>>> sequence number
>>>>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation
>> that does not 
>>>>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> 
>>>>> John
>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>>>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
>>>>>> HaSharon)
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Stewart,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>> discussion 
>>>>>> last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there was
>>>> whether what we
>>>>>> gain from putting a PW label and CW in the stack to separate the
>>>>>> MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are worth the cost:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>>>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute
>> the PW label
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with
>>>> the S bit)
>>>>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>>>> (although
>>>>>> you have been arguing against using the serial number in
>> your last 
>>>>>> few
>>>>>> emails)
>>>>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming that a
>>>>>> serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in case
>> there's a 
>>>>>> provisioning problem
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the
>> stack in the 
>>>>>> unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>> switch. I'm 
>>>>>> still not convinced that it's worth the cost, although I could
>>>>>> possibly still be convinced. Are there any other advantages
>>>> that I've
>>>>>> missed?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>>>>> To: Drake, John E
>>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
>>>>>> HaSharon)
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an
>> MPLS payload
>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>>>> methodology
>>>>>> :)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW is
>>>>>> expected.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Stewart
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> 

_______________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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From: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
To: "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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George,

That's the client signal interface on the TE device, connected to a
trunk interface on the P(E) router. It would typically have MPLS packets
encapsulated over GFP if it's a physical SONET/SDH interface, over G.709
if a physical OTN interface, or over Ethernet if it a physical
GE/10GE/100GE interface. Physically, it's identical to how one would
interconnect routers using TDM-based transport switches.

Cheers,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 2:37 PM
To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

I don't understand the picture.  What is the link between the P(E)
device
and the TE device?

...George


On 1/26/09 1:14 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
<andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
wrote:

> George,
> 
> I think a picture may help here. This is the reference model that I
have
> in mind.
> 
> This is a traditional MPLS network that we operate now:
> 
> CE - PE - P(*) - PE -CE
> 
> Where P(*) is zero or more core provider routers.
> 
> With MPLS-TP, this picture changes to either of the following (where
> T(*) is zero or more core MPLS-TP transport switches and TE is an edge
> MPLS-TP transport switch):
> 
> CE - PE - P - TE - T(*) - TE - P - PE - CE
> 
> - or -
> 
> CE - PE - TE - T(*) - TE - PE - CE
> 
> In either case, a T-T, T-TE, or TE-TE trunk uses an MPLS-TP label
stack,
> and the P-TE or PE-TE interfaces have MPLS on them, to be encapsulated
> within MPLS-TP, so that MPLS-TP can transparently transport the MPLS
> packets between the P or PE routers.
> 
> If we're all in agreement here on this model, then when you talk about
> running MPLS as it currently exists, I don't think that's an issue,
> since a T and TE are devices that don't yet exist in the marketplace,
> and thus we are free to define their behavior, as long as that
behavior
> meets the MPLS-TP requirements draft.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 12:48 PM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> 
> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or MPLS-TP.
> However
> if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of thousands of
> devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well as all the
> control
> and OAM depends on it.
> 
> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and IP.  And
if
> that
> is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
> 
> ...George
> 
> 
> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> John,
>> 
>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new
> MPLS
>> PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make up the rules.
>> 
>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an
> MPLS
>> PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further arguments
from
>> Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of using a PW).
>> 
>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to
> run
>> MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary issue
>> here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order delivery, so it
>> has to avoid ECMP.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> Andy,
>> 
>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence number
>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>> 
>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> John  
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> Stewart,
>>> 
>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>> 
>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>>> discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there
>>> was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the
>>> stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are
>>> worth the cost:
>>> 
>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>>> 
>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>> 
>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S
bit)
>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>>> (although you have been arguing against using the serial
>>> number in your last few
>>> emails)
>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming
>>> that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in
>>> case there's a provisioning problem
>>> 
>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in
>>> the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>>> switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost,
>>> although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any
>>> other advantages that I've missed?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>> To: Drake, John E
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> John
>>>> 
>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>>> over
>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>> 
>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>>> methodology :)
>>> 
>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW
>>> is expected.
>>> 
>>> Stewart
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> 

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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Andy -

I still don't get the picture.  Saying "MPLS packets" means nothing to me.

Consider this picture.

P1 
 |
 TE1 - T(*) - TE2 - P3
 |
P2


Who is directly connected to P3 from a protocol point of view?  If P3 is a
peer of TE2, then TE2 is also acting a P router.

If P3 is a neighbor of P1, then there is some link interface between P1 and
P3 instantiated over the TE cloud.  A pw would work.

If P3 is a neighbor of both P1 and P2, then there is some sort of
multiplexed link interface between P3 and TE2 which gets mapped to links to
P1 and P2 by TE2.

Please clarify.

...George


On 1/26/09 2:46 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
wrote:

> George,
> 
> That's the client signal interface on the TE device, connected to a
> trunk interface on the P(E) router. It would typically have MPLS packets
> encapsulated over GFP if it's a physical SONET/SDH interface, over G.709
> if a physical OTN interface, or over Ethernet if it a physical
> GE/10GE/100GE interface. Physically, it's identical to how one would
> interconnect routers using TDM-based transport switches.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 2:37 PM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> 
> I don't understand the picture.  What is the link between the P(E)
> device
> and the TE device?
> 
> ...George
> 
> 
> On 1/26/09 1:14 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> George,
>> 
>> I think a picture may help here. This is the reference model that I
> have
>> in mind.
>> 
>> This is a traditional MPLS network that we operate now:
>> 
>> CE - PE - P(*) - PE -CE
>> 
>> Where P(*) is zero or more core provider routers.
>> 
>> With MPLS-TP, this picture changes to either of the following (where
>> T(*) is zero or more core MPLS-TP transport switches and TE is an edge
>> MPLS-TP transport switch):
>> 
>> CE - PE - P - TE - T(*) - TE - P - PE - CE
>> 
>> - or -
>> 
>> CE - PE - TE - T(*) - TE - PE - CE
>> 
>> In either case, a T-T, T-TE, or TE-TE trunk uses an MPLS-TP label
> stack,
>> and the P-TE or PE-TE interfaces have MPLS on them, to be encapsulated
>> within MPLS-TP, so that MPLS-TP can transparently transport the MPLS
>> packets between the P or PE routers.
>> 
>> If we're all in agreement here on this model, then when you talk about
>> running MPLS as it currently exists, I don't think that's an issue,
>> since a T and TE are devices that don't yet exist in the marketplace,
>> and thus we are free to define their behavior, as long as that
> behavior
>> meets the MPLS-TP requirements draft.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 12:48 PM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or MPLS-TP.
>> However
>> if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of thousands of
>> devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well as all the
>> control
>> and OAM depends on it.
>> 
>> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and IP.  And
> if
>> that
>> is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
>> 
>> ...George
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> John,
>>> 
>>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new
>> MPLS
>>> PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make up the rules.
>>> 
>>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an
>> MPLS
>>> PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further arguments
> from
>>> Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of using a PW).
>>> 
>>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to
>> run
>>> MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary issue
>>> here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order delivery, so it
>>> has to avoid ECMP.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> Andy,
>>> 
>>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
>>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence number
>>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>>> 
>>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
>>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> John  
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> Stewart,
>>>> 
>>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>>> 
>>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>>>> discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there
>>>> was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the
>>>> stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are
>>>> worth the cost:
>>>> 
>>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>>>> 
>>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>>> 
>>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S
> bit)
>>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>>>> (although you have been arguing against using the serial
>>>> number in your last few
>>>> emails)
>>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming
>>>> that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in
>>>> case there's a provisioning problem
>>>> 
>>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in
>>>> the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>>>> switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost,
>>>> although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any
>>>> other advantages that I've missed?
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Andy
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>>> To: Drake, John E
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> John
>>>>> 
>>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>>>> over
>>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>>> 
>>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>>>> methodology :)
>>>> 
>>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW
>>>> is expected.
>>>> 
>>>> Stewart
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> 
> 

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Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:20:25 +0000
From: Ben Niven-Jenkins <benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com>
To: George Swallow <swallow@cisco.com>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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George,

I think you are articulating something similar (if not the same) to what I
tried (badly) to do.

I also think the range of possible solutions depends on what angle you are
coming at MPLS-TP - does one want to build new or does one want to evolve
their existing MPLS deployment.  For me it is definitely the latter

In other words does one assume that when run inband the CP(/MP) uses the
GACH or uses the current method of MPLS (i.e. Run IP CP parallel to MPLS),
while I understand the case for the GACH (OOB 'in path') I don't think we
can discount the latter.


I have tried to draw what I am thinking and have posted it here:
http://www.niven-jenkins.co.uk/MPLS-TP/MPLSoverMPLS.ppt

Ben


On 26/01/2009 17:48, "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com> wrote:

> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or MPLS-TP.  However
> if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of thousands of
> devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well as all the control
> and OAM depends on it.
> 
> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and IP.  And if that
> is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
> 
> ...George
> 
> 
> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> John,
>> 
>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new MPLS
>> PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make up the rules.
>> 
>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an MPLS
>> PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further arguments from
>> Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of using a PW).
>> 
>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to run
>> MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary issue
>> here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order delivery, so it
>> has to avoid ECMP.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> Andy,
>> 
>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence number
>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>> 
>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> John  
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> Stewart,
>>> 
>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>> 
>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>>> discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there
>>> was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the
>>> stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are
>>> worth the cost:
>>> 
>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>>> 
>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>> 
>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S bit)
>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>>> (although you have been arguing against using the serial
>>> number in your last few
>>> emails)
>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming
>>> that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in
>>> case there's a provisioning problem
>>> 
>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in
>>> the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>>> switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost,
>>> although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any
>>> other advantages that I've missed?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>> To: Drake, John E
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> John
>>>> 
>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>>> over
>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>> 
>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>>> methodology :)
>>> 
>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW
>>> is expected.
>>> 
>>> Stewart
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop

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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Drake, John E wrote:
>  
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com] 
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 10:04 AM
>> To: Drake, John E; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>> Several points here.
>>
>> First the reserve values you speak of are all reserved in the 
>> IP Protocol number space.  I do not believe that the powers 
>> that be will be very please with a proposal that says that we 
>> will use values that they may later define as a new IP version.
>>     
>
> JD:  Then how was PW able to get the values '0' and '1'?
>   
On the basis that we had a need, but would design the protocols such
that we would never go back and ask for more.

Both nibbles and reserved labels are a very scarce resource that
need to last us a long time, so we need to allocate them with great
care.

Stewart




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Dialin for tonight

Stewart

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Stewart Bryant has invited you to a Cisco Unified MeetingPlace =
Conference

Date/Time:               January 27, 2009 at 05:00PM Europe/London
Length:                  60
Frequency:               once
Meeting ID:              310310314159
Meeting Password:       =20

Global Access Numbers:
http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html

    San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800    RTP:              +1.919.392.3330   =
  =20
    US/Canada:  +1.866.432.9903    United Kingdom:   +44.20.8824.0117
    India:      +91.80.4103.3979   Germany:          +49.619.6773.9002
    Japan:      +81.3.5763.9394    China:            +86.10.8515.5666

TO ATTEND A WEB AND VOICE CONFERENCE:

CISCO INTRANET ATTENDEES
Join the Web & Voice Conference*
1. Go to http://meetingplaceinternal.cisco.com/join.asp?310310314159
2. Enter your CEC User ID & Password then click OK
- Accept any security warnings you receive and wait for the Meeting Room =
to initialize**
3. Click on CONNECT from the Meeting Room to join the Voice Conference =
portion of the meeting

EXTERNAL ATTENDEES - Outside the Cisco Intranet
Join the Web & Voice Conference*
1. Go to http://meetingplace.cisco.com/join.asp?310310314159
2. Fill in the My Name is field then click Attend Meeting
- If you have a CEC User ID, click on the Cisco icon
- Accept any security warnings you receive and wait for the Meeting Room =
to initialize**
3. Click on CONNECT from the Meeting Room to join the Voice Conference =
portion of the meeting
- Note: Guest users will see a link to the Global Access Numbers.

*If this is your first time attending a Web Conference, disable any =
pop-up blockers and visit =
http://meetingplace.cisco.com/mpweb/scripts/browsertestupper.asp to test =
your web browser for compatibility with the Web Conference.
**The meeting will not start until the Host of the meeting arrives - if =
you'd like to start the meeting with your Profile, please review the =
steps below to attend a Voice Only Conference as a Guest then follow the =
system prompts.

TO ATTEND A RESERVATIONLESS VOICE ONLY CONFERENCE

AS THE HOST
1. Dial into Cisco Unified MeetingPlace (view the Access Numbers and =
link above)
2. Press 1 to attend the meeting
3. Enter the Meeting ID 310310314159 followed by # key
4. Follow the prompts to record your name and enter the waiting room
5. Press 2 then enter your Profile Password to initiate your meeting

AS A GUEST
1. Follow steps 1-4 above to access the meeting
2. You will be placed in a waiting room until the Host initiates the =
meeting

SUPPORT
Information about this Conference: Contact Stewart Bryant, 442088248828
Cisco IT Support Center: Attend the Voice Conference and then press #0 =
on your phone keypad


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Meeting: Bryant {Meeting ID: 310310314159}</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->

<P><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Stewart Bryant has invited you =
to a Cisco Unified MeetingPlace Conference</FONT></B>
</P>

<P><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Date/Time:</FONT></B><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; January 27, 2009 at 05:00PM Europe/London</FONT>

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Length:</FONT></B><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 60</FONT>

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Frequency:</FONT></B><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; once</FONT>

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Meeting ID:</FONT></B><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; 310310314159</FONT>

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Meeting =
Password:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

<P><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Global Access =
Numbers:</FONT></B>

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"><A =
HREF=3D"http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.ht=
ml">http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html</=
A></FONT></B>
</P>

<P><B><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">San Jose, CA:</FONT></B><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> =
+1.408.525.6800&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><B> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">RTP:</FONT></B><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; +1.919.392.3330&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=20

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
US/Canada:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp; =
+1.866.432.9903&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">United Kingdom:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp; +44.20.8824.0117</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><B> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">India:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+91.80.4103.3979&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Germany:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+49.619.6773.9002</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><B> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Japan:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+81.3.5763.9394&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">China:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+86.10.8515.5666</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">TO ATTEND A WEB AND VOICE =
CONFERENCE:</FONT></B>
</P>

<P><B><FONT COLOR=3D"#008080" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">CISCO =
INTRANET ATTENDEES</FONT></B>

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Join the Web &amp; Voice =
Conference</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">*</FONT></B>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">1. Go to</FONT><B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"><A =
HREF=3D"http://meetingplaceinternal.cisco.com/join.asp?310310314159">http=
://meetingplaceinternal.cisco.com/join.asp?310310314159</A></FONT></B>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">2. Enter your</FONT><B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">CEC User ID &amp; Password</FONT></B><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> then click</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">OK</FONT></B>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">- Accept any security warnings =
you receive and wait for the Meeting Room to initialize</FONT><B><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">**</FONT></B>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">3. Click on</FONT><B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">CONNECT</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> from the Meeting Room to join the Voice Conference =
portion of the meeting</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><FONT COLOR=3D"#008080" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">EXTERNAL =
ATTENDEES - Outside the Cisco Intranet</FONT></B>

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Join the Web &amp; Voice =
Conference</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">*</FONT></B>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">1. Go to</FONT><B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"><A =
HREF=3D"http://meetingplace.cisco.com/join.asp?310310314159">http://meeti=
ngplace.cisco.com/join.asp?310310314159</A></FONT></B>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">2. Fill in the</FONT><B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">My Name is</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> field then click</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Attend Meeting</FONT></B>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">- If you have a CEC User ID, =
click on the Cisco icon</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">- Accept any security warnings =
you receive and wait for the Meeting Room to initialize</FONT><B><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">**</FONT></B>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">3. Click on</FONT><B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">CONNECT</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> from the Meeting Room to join the Voice Conference =
portion of the meeting</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">-</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Note:</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Guest users will see a link to the Global Access Numbers.</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">*</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">If this is your =
first time attending a Web Conference, disable any pop-up blockers and =
visit</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"><A =
HREF=3D"http://meetingplace.cisco.com/mpweb/scripts/browsertestupper.asp"=
>http://meetingplace.cisco.com/mpweb/scripts/browsertestupper.asp</A></FO=
NT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> to test your web browser for =
compatibility with the Web Conference.</FONT></P>

<P><B><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">**</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">The meeting will =
not start until the Host of the meeting arrives - if you'd like to start =
the meeting with your Profile, please review the steps below to attend a =
Voice Only Conference as a Guest then follow the system =
prompts.</FONT></P>

<P><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">TO ATTEND A </FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">RESERVATIONLESS</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> VOICE =
ONLY CONFERENCE</FONT></B>
</P>

<P><B><FONT COLOR=3D"#008080" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">AS THE =
HOST</FONT></B>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">1. Dial into Cisco Unified =
MeetingPlace (view the Access Numbers and link above)</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">2. Press</FONT><B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">1</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"> to attend the meeting</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">3. Enter the Meeting =
ID</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">310310314159</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> =
followed by</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">#</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> key</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">4. Follow the prompts to record =
your name and enter the waiting room</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">5. Press</FONT><B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">2</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"> then enter your</FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Profile Password</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">to =
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">1. Follow steps 1-4 above to =
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From: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
To: "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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George,

In your diagram, P1, P2, and P3 are all protocol peers, and are (at the
protocol level) direct neighbors to each other.

The P routers are NOT peers of the TE/T switches. The P routers are
clients of the TE/T switches.

P3 is a neighbor of both P1 and P2. Yes, there is a multiplexed link
interface between TE2 and P3 which gets mapped to links to P1 and P2 by
TE2. A GE/10GE/100GE interface using VLAN for multiplexing would be an
example of such an interface, as is a channelized SONET/SDH interface.
Alternatively, virtual concatenation can be used with G.709 and GFP
packet framing to obtain multiplexing over a single physical interface. 

At least in VZ, we do not plan to run the P/PE routers and T/TE switches
as peers; the network of T/TE switches provides a packet transport
service to interconnect the P/PE routers.

Cheers,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 4:27 PM
To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

Andy -

I still don't get the picture.  Saying "MPLS packets" means nothing to
me.

Consider this picture.

P1 
 |
 TE1 - T(*) - TE2 - P3
 |
P2


Who is directly connected to P3 from a protocol point of view?  If P3 is
a
peer of TE2, then TE2 is also acting a P router.

If P3 is a neighbor of P1, then there is some link interface between P1
and
P3 instantiated over the TE cloud.  A pw would work.

If P3 is a neighbor of both P1 and P2, then there is some sort of
multiplexed link interface between P3 and TE2 which gets mapped to links
to
P1 and P2 by TE2.

Please clarify.

...George


On 1/26/09 2:46 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
<andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
wrote:

> George,
> 
> That's the client signal interface on the TE device, connected to a
> trunk interface on the P(E) router. It would typically have MPLS
packets
> encapsulated over GFP if it's a physical SONET/SDH interface, over
G.709
> if a physical OTN interface, or over Ethernet if it a physical
> GE/10GE/100GE interface. Physically, it's identical to how one would
> interconnect routers using TDM-based transport switches.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 2:37 PM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> 
> I don't understand the picture.  What is the link between the P(E)
> device
> and the TE device?
> 
> ...George
> 
> 
> On 1/26/09 1:14 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> George,
>> 
>> I think a picture may help here. This is the reference model that I
> have
>> in mind.
>> 
>> This is a traditional MPLS network that we operate now:
>> 
>> CE - PE - P(*) - PE -CE
>> 
>> Where P(*) is zero or more core provider routers.
>> 
>> With MPLS-TP, this picture changes to either of the following (where
>> T(*) is zero or more core MPLS-TP transport switches and TE is an
edge
>> MPLS-TP transport switch):
>> 
>> CE - PE - P - TE - T(*) - TE - P - PE - CE
>> 
>> - or -
>> 
>> CE - PE - TE - T(*) - TE - PE - CE
>> 
>> In either case, a T-T, T-TE, or TE-TE trunk uses an MPLS-TP label
> stack,
>> and the P-TE or PE-TE interfaces have MPLS on them, to be
encapsulated
>> within MPLS-TP, so that MPLS-TP can transparently transport the MPLS
>> packets between the P or PE routers.
>> 
>> If we're all in agreement here on this model, then when you talk
about
>> running MPLS as it currently exists, I don't think that's an issue,
>> since a T and TE are devices that don't yet exist in the marketplace,
>> and thus we are free to define their behavior, as long as that
> behavior
>> meets the MPLS-TP requirements draft.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 12:48 PM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or MPLS-TP.
>> However
>> if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of thousands of
>> devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well as all the
>> control
>> and OAM depends on it.
>> 
>> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and IP.  And
> if
>> that
>> is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
>> 
>> ...George
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> John,
>>> 
>>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new
>> MPLS
>>> PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make up the rules.
>>> 
>>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an
>> MPLS
>>> PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further arguments
> from
>>> Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of using a PW).
>>> 
>>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to
>> run
>>> MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary
issue
>>> here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order delivery, so
it
>>> has to avoid ECMP.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> Andy,
>>> 
>>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
>>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence
number
>>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>>> 
>>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
>>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> John  
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> Stewart,
>>>> 
>>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>>> 
>>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>>>> discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there
>>>> was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the
>>>> stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are
>>>> worth the cost:
>>>> 
>>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>>>> 
>>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>>> 
>>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S
> bit)
>>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>>>> (although you have been arguing against using the serial
>>>> number in your last few
>>>> emails)
>>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming
>>>> that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in
>>>> case there's a provisioning problem
>>>> 
>>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in
>>>> the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>>>> switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost,
>>>> although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any
>>>> other advantages that I've missed?
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Andy
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>>> To: Drake, John E
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> John
>>>>> 
>>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>>>> over
>>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>>> 
>>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>>>> methodology :)
>>>> 
>>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW
>>>> is expected.
>>>> 
>>>> Stewart
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> 
> 

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From: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
To: "Ben Niven-Jenkins" <benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com>, "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Ben,

VZ plans to "build new" in your terminology (although "building new" may
mean adding packet interface cards to current optical transport
switches, not a complete new equipment build out). It also may mean
adding G.709 interfaces to existing routers, although much depends on
what's the most cost-effective physical interface (from both the router
and the optical switch side) - that could be G.709, GFP, or
GE/10GE/100GE. 

Your diagram was very helpful even though you don't really show the
option of running MPLS over MPLS-TP. I modified it to show two different
alternatives to running client MPLS (green) over server MPLS-TP (red),
and it looks like much depends on how you run the client MPLS control
traffic. 

In figure 1, if the client MPLS control traffic (IP) is in-band (in an
LSP), you can either use an MPLS PW or the S bit as the demark. This is
the situation that I've had in mind. 

However, as in figure 2, if you run the client control traffic out of
band, then it looks like a combination IP/MPLS PW may indeed be
required.

Thanks,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Niven-Jenkins [mailto:benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 5:20 PM
To: George Swallow; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E;
stbryant@cisco.com
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

George,

I think you are articulating something similar (if not the same) to what
I
tried (badly) to do.

I also think the range of possible solutions depends on what angle you
are
coming at MPLS-TP - does one want to build new or does one want to
evolve
their existing MPLS deployment.  For me it is definitely the latter

In other words does one assume that when run inband the CP(/MP) uses the
GACH or uses the current method of MPLS (i.e. Run IP CP parallel to
MPLS),
while I understand the case for the GACH (OOB 'in path') I don't think
we
can discount the latter.


I have tried to draw what I am thinking and have posted it here:
http://www.niven-jenkins.co.uk/MPLS-TP/MPLSoverMPLS.ppt

Ben


On 26/01/2009 17:48, "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com> wrote:

> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or MPLS-TP.
However
> if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of thousands of
> devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well as all the
control
> and OAM depends on it.
> 
> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and IP.  And
if that
> is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
> 
> ...George
> 
> 
> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
<andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> John,
>> 
>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new
MPLS
>> PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make up the rules.
>> 
>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an
MPLS
>> PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further arguments
from
>> Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of using a PW).
>> 
>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to
run
>> MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary issue
>> here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order delivery, so it
>> has to avoid ECMP.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> Andy,
>> 
>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence number
>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>> 
>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> John  
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> Stewart,
>>> 
>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>> 
>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>>> discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there
>>> was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the
>>> stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are
>>> worth the cost:
>>> 
>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>>> 
>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>> 
>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S
bit)
>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>>> (although you have been arguing against using the serial
>>> number in your last few
>>> emails)
>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming
>>> that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in
>>> case there's a provisioning problem
>>> 
>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in
>>> the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>>> switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost,
>>> although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any
>>> other advantages that I've missed?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>> To: Drake, John E
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> John
>>>> 
>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>>> over
>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>> 
>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>>> methodology :)
>>> 
>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW
>>> is expected.
>>> 
>>> Stewart
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Sorry, I forgot the enclosure.

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Malis, Andrew G.
(Andy)
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:27 AM
To: George Swallow; Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

George,

In your diagram, P1, P2, and P3 are all protocol peers, and are (at the
protocol level) direct neighbors to each other.

The P routers are NOT peers of the TE/T switches. The P routers are
clients of the TE/T switches.

P3 is a neighbor of both P1 and P2. Yes, there is a multiplexed link
interface between TE2 and P3 which gets mapped to links to P1 and P2 by
TE2. A GE/10GE/100GE interface using VLAN for multiplexing would be an
example of such an interface, as is a channelized SONET/SDH interface.
Alternatively, virtual concatenation can be used with G.709 and GFP
packet framing to obtain multiplexing over a single physical interface.=20

At least in VZ, we do not plan to run the P/PE routers and T/TE switches
as peers; the network of T/TE switches provides a packet transport
service to interconnect the P/PE routers.

Cheers,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 4:27 PM
To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

Andy -

I still don't get the picture.  Saying "MPLS packets" means nothing to
me.

Consider this picture.

P1=20
 |
 TE1 - T(*) - TE2 - P3
 |
P2


Who is directly connected to P3 from a protocol point of view?  If P3 is
a
peer of TE2, then TE2 is also acting a P router.

If P3 is a neighbor of P1, then there is some link interface between P1
and
P3 instantiated over the TE cloud.  A pw would work.

If P3 is a neighbor of both P1 and P2, then there is some sort of
multiplexed link interface between P3 and TE2 which gets mapped to links
to
P1 and P2 by TE2.

Please clarify.

...George


On 1/26/09 2:46 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
<andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
wrote:

> George,
>=20
> That's the client signal interface on the TE device, connected to a
> trunk interface on the P(E) router. It would typically have MPLS
packets
> encapsulated over GFP if it's a physical SONET/SDH interface, over
G.709
> if a physical OTN interface, or over Ethernet if it a physical
> GE/10GE/100GE interface. Physically, it's identical to how one would
> interconnect routers using TDM-based transport switches.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Andy
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 2:37 PM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>=20
> I don't understand the picture.  What is the link between the P(E)
> device
> and the TE device?
>=20
> ...George
>=20
>=20
> On 1/26/09 1:14 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
> wrote:
>=20
>> George,
>>=20
>> I think a picture may help here. This is the reference model that I
> have
>> in mind.
>>=20
>> This is a traditional MPLS network that we operate now:
>>=20
>> CE - PE - P(*) - PE -CE
>>=20
>> Where P(*) is zero or more core provider routers.
>>=20
>> With MPLS-TP, this picture changes to either of the following (where
>> T(*) is zero or more core MPLS-TP transport switches and TE is an
edge
>> MPLS-TP transport switch):
>>=20
>> CE - PE - P - TE - T(*) - TE - P - PE - CE
>>=20
>> - or -
>>=20
>> CE - PE - TE - T(*) - TE - PE - CE
>>=20
>> In either case, a T-T, T-TE, or TE-TE trunk uses an MPLS-TP label
> stack,
>> and the P-TE or PE-TE interfaces have MPLS on them, to be
encapsulated
>> within MPLS-TP, so that MPLS-TP can transparently transport the MPLS
>> packets between the P or PE routers.
>>=20
>> If we're all in agreement here on this model, then when you talk
about
>> running MPLS as it currently exists, I don't think that's an issue,
>> since a T and TE are devices that don't yet exist in the marketplace,
>> and thus we are free to define their behavior, as long as that
> behavior
>> meets the MPLS-TP requirements draft.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 12:48 PM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>=20
>> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or MPLS-TP.
>> However
>> if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of thousands of
>> devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well as all the
>> control
>> and OAM depends on it.
>>=20
>> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and IP.  And
> if
>> that
>> is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
>>=20
>> ...George
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> John,
>>>=20
>>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new
>> MPLS
>>> PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make up the rules.
>>>=20
>>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an
>> MPLS
>>> PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further arguments
> from
>>> Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of using a PW).
>>>=20
>>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to
>> run
>>> MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary
issue
>>> here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order delivery, so
it
>>> has to avoid ECMP.
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>=20
>>> Andy,
>>>=20
>>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
>>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence
number
>>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>>>=20
>>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
>>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> John =20
>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>=20
>>>> Stewart,
>>>>=20
>>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>>>=20
>>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>>>> discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there
>>>> was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the
>>>> stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are
>>>> worth the cost:
>>>>=20
>>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>>>>=20
>>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>>>=20
>>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S
> bit)
>>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>>>> (although you have been arguing against using the serial
>>>> number in your last few
>>>> emails)
>>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming
>>>> that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in
>>>> case there's a provisioning problem
>>>>=20
>>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in
>>>> the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>>>> switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost,
>>>> although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any
>>>> other advantages that I've missed?
>>>>=20
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Andy
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>>> To: Drake, John E
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>=20
>>>> John
>>>>>=20
>>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>>>> over
>>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>>>=20
>>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>>>> methodology :)
>>>>=20
>>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW
>>>> is expected.
>>>>=20
>>>> Stewart
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>=20
>=20

_______________________________________________
Mpls-interop mailing list
Mpls-interop@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop

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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:21:45 -0500
From: George Swallow <swallow@cisco.com>
To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Andy -

In that case there is no MPLS over MPLS-TP!  There is only MPLS over FOO
over MPLS-TP where FOO is any of the technologies you list below.

Note.  I am NOT being flip here.  The way the routers see each other as
physically adjacent is via a link protocol multiplexing - ppp over Sonet or
Ethernet (with ethertype).  So the boxes can do IP, CLNS between them as
well as MPLS.  Otherwise they won't bring up an adjacency, run routing
protocols, etc.

...George


On 1/27/09 9:27 AM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
wrote:

> George,
> 
> In your diagram, P1, P2, and P3 are all protocol peers, and are (at the
> protocol level) direct neighbors to each other.
> 
> The P routers are NOT peers of the TE/T switches. The P routers are
> clients of the TE/T switches.
> 
> P3 is a neighbor of both P1 and P2. Yes, there is a multiplexed link
> interface between TE2 and P3 which gets mapped to links to P1 and P2 by
> TE2. A GE/10GE/100GE interface using VLAN for multiplexing would be an
> example of such an interface, as is a channelized SONET/SDH interface.
> Alternatively, virtual concatenation can be used with G.709 and GFP
> packet framing to obtain multiplexing over a single physical interface.
> 
> At least in VZ, we do not plan to run the P/PE routers and T/TE switches
> as peers; the network of T/TE switches provides a packet transport
> service to interconnect the P/PE routers.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 4:27 PM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> 
> Andy -
> 
> I still don't get the picture.  Saying "MPLS packets" means nothing to
> me.
> 
> Consider this picture.
> 
> P1 
>  |
>  TE1 - T(*) - TE2 - P3
>  |
> P2
> 
> 
> Who is directly connected to P3 from a protocol point of view?  If P3 is
> a
> peer of TE2, then TE2 is also acting a P router.
> 
> If P3 is a neighbor of P1, then there is some link interface between P1
> and
> P3 instantiated over the TE cloud.  A pw would work.
> 
> If P3 is a neighbor of both P1 and P2, then there is some sort of
> multiplexed link interface between P3 and TE2 which gets mapped to links
> to
> P1 and P2 by TE2.
> 
> Please clarify.
> 
> ...George
> 
> 
> On 1/26/09 2:46 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> George,
>> 
>> That's the client signal interface on the TE device, connected to a
>> trunk interface on the P(E) router. It would typically have MPLS
> packets
>> encapsulated over GFP if it's a physical SONET/SDH interface, over
> G.709
>> if a physical OTN interface, or over Ethernet if it a physical
>> GE/10GE/100GE interface. Physically, it's identical to how one would
>> interconnect routers using TDM-based transport switches.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 2:37 PM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> I don't understand the picture.  What is the link between the P(E)
>> device
>> and the TE device?
>> 
>> ...George
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/26/09 1:14 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> George,
>>> 
>>> I think a picture may help here. This is the reference model that I
>> have
>>> in mind.
>>> 
>>> This is a traditional MPLS network that we operate now:
>>> 
>>> CE - PE - P(*) - PE -CE
>>> 
>>> Where P(*) is zero or more core provider routers.
>>> 
>>> With MPLS-TP, this picture changes to either of the following (where
>>> T(*) is zero or more core MPLS-TP transport switches and TE is an
> edge
>>> MPLS-TP transport switch):
>>> 
>>> CE - PE - P - TE - T(*) - TE - P - PE - CE
>>> 
>>> - or -
>>> 
>>> CE - PE - TE - T(*) - TE - PE - CE
>>> 
>>> In either case, a T-T, T-TE, or TE-TE trunk uses an MPLS-TP label
>> stack,
>>> and the P-TE or PE-TE interfaces have MPLS on them, to be
> encapsulated
>>> within MPLS-TP, so that MPLS-TP can transparently transport the MPLS
>>> packets between the P or PE routers.
>>> 
>>> If we're all in agreement here on this model, then when you talk
> about
>>> running MPLS as it currently exists, I don't think that's an issue,
>>> since a T and TE are devices that don't yet exist in the marketplace,
>>> and thus we are free to define their behavior, as long as that
>> behavior
>>> meets the MPLS-TP requirements draft.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 12:48 PM
>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or MPLS-TP.
>>> However
>>> if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of thousands of
>>> devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well as all the
>>> control
>>> and OAM depends on it.
>>> 
>>> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and IP.  And
>> if
>>> that
>>> is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
>>> 
>>> ...George
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
>>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> John,
>>>> 
>>>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new
>>> MPLS
>>>> PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make up the rules.
>>>> 
>>>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an
>>> MPLS
>>>> PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further arguments
>> from
>>>> Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of using a PW).
>>>> 
>>>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted to
>>> run
>>>> MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary
> issue
>>>> here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order delivery, so
> it
>>>> has to avoid ECMP.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Andy
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> Andy,
>>>> 
>>>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
>>>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence
> number
>>>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>>>> 
>>>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does not
>>>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> John  
>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
> HaSharon)
>>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>> 
>>>>> Stewart,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>>>>> discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there
>>>>> was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the
>>>>> stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are
>>>>> worth the cost:
>>>>> 
>>>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW label
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>>>> 
>>>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S
>> bit)
>>>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>>>>> (although you have been arguing against using the serial
>>>>> number in your last few
>>>>> emails)
>>>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming
>>>>> that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in
>>>>> case there's a provisioning problem
>>>>> 
>>>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in
>>>>> the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>>>>> switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost,
>>>>> although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any
>>>>> other advantages that I've missed?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Andy
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>>>> To: Drake, John E
>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
> HaSharon)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>> 
>>>>> John
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS payload
>>>>> over
>>>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>>>>> methodology :)
>>>>> 
>>>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW
>>>>> is expected.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Stewart
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>> 
>> 
> 

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From: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
To: "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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George,

I see your point and I agree. Also see the email I sent to Ben this
morning, and the enclosed diagram. I now see your point about a combined
IP and MPLS PW to bring up router adjacencies and run control protocols.

Cheers,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:22 PM
To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

Andy -

In that case there is no MPLS over MPLS-TP!  There is only MPLS over FOO
over MPLS-TP where FOO is any of the technologies you list below.

Note.  I am NOT being flip here.  The way the routers see each other as
physically adjacent is via a link protocol multiplexing - ppp over Sonet
or
Ethernet (with ethertype).  So the boxes can do IP, CLNS between them as
well as MPLS.  Otherwise they won't bring up an adjacency, run routing
protocols, etc.

...George


On 1/27/09 9:27 AM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
<andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
wrote:

> George,
> 
> In your diagram, P1, P2, and P3 are all protocol peers, and are (at
the
> protocol level) direct neighbors to each other.
> 
> The P routers are NOT peers of the TE/T switches. The P routers are
> clients of the TE/T switches.
> 
> P3 is a neighbor of both P1 and P2. Yes, there is a multiplexed link
> interface between TE2 and P3 which gets mapped to links to P1 and P2
by
> TE2. A GE/10GE/100GE interface using VLAN for multiplexing would be an
> example of such an interface, as is a channelized SONET/SDH interface.
> Alternatively, virtual concatenation can be used with G.709 and GFP
> packet framing to obtain multiplexing over a single physical
interface.
> 
> At least in VZ, we do not plan to run the P/PE routers and T/TE
switches
> as peers; the network of T/TE switches provides a packet transport
> service to interconnect the P/PE routers.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 4:27 PM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> 
> Andy -
> 
> I still don't get the picture.  Saying "MPLS packets" means nothing to
> me.
> 
> Consider this picture.
> 
> P1 
>  |
>  TE1 - T(*) - TE2 - P3
>  |
> P2
> 
> 
> Who is directly connected to P3 from a protocol point of view?  If P3
is
> a
> peer of TE2, then TE2 is also acting a P router.
> 
> If P3 is a neighbor of P1, then there is some link interface between
P1
> and
> P3 instantiated over the TE cloud.  A pw would work.
> 
> If P3 is a neighbor of both P1 and P2, then there is some sort of
> multiplexed link interface between P3 and TE2 which gets mapped to
links
> to
> P1 and P2 by TE2.
> 
> Please clarify.
> 
> ...George
> 
> 
> On 1/26/09 2:46 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> George,
>> 
>> That's the client signal interface on the TE device, connected to a
>> trunk interface on the P(E) router. It would typically have MPLS
> packets
>> encapsulated over GFP if it's a physical SONET/SDH interface, over
> G.709
>> if a physical OTN interface, or over Ethernet if it a physical
>> GE/10GE/100GE interface. Physically, it's identical to how one would
>> interconnect routers using TDM-based transport switches.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 2:37 PM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> I don't understand the picture.  What is the link between the P(E)
>> device
>> and the TE device?
>> 
>> ...George
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/26/09 1:14 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> George,
>>> 
>>> I think a picture may help here. This is the reference model that I
>> have
>>> in mind.
>>> 
>>> This is a traditional MPLS network that we operate now:
>>> 
>>> CE - PE - P(*) - PE -CE
>>> 
>>> Where P(*) is zero or more core provider routers.
>>> 
>>> With MPLS-TP, this picture changes to either of the following (where
>>> T(*) is zero or more core MPLS-TP transport switches and TE is an
> edge
>>> MPLS-TP transport switch):
>>> 
>>> CE - PE - P - TE - T(*) - TE - P - PE - CE
>>> 
>>> - or -
>>> 
>>> CE - PE - TE - T(*) - TE - PE - CE
>>> 
>>> In either case, a T-T, T-TE, or TE-TE trunk uses an MPLS-TP label
>> stack,
>>> and the P-TE or PE-TE interfaces have MPLS on them, to be
> encapsulated
>>> within MPLS-TP, so that MPLS-TP can transparently transport the MPLS
>>> packets between the P or PE routers.
>>> 
>>> If we're all in agreement here on this model, then when you talk
> about
>>> running MPLS as it currently exists, I don't think that's an issue,
>>> since a T and TE are devices that don't yet exist in the
marketplace,
>>> and thus we are free to define their behavior, as long as that
>> behavior
>>> meets the MPLS-TP requirements draft.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 12:48 PM
>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
HaSharon)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or MPLS-TP.
>>> However
>>> if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of thousands
of
>>> devices, then  you need a PW that can carry IP as well as all the
>>> control
>>> and OAM depends on it.
>>> 
>>> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and IP.  And
>> if
>>> that
>>> is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
>>> 
>>> ...George
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
>>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> John,
>>>> 
>>>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet defined (a new
>>> MPLS
>>>> PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make up the
rules.
>>>> 
>>>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we don't need an
>>> MPLS
>>>> PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further arguments
>> from
>>>> Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of using a PW).
>>>> 
>>>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we wanted
to
>>> run
>>>> MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well). The primary
> issue
>>>> here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order delivery, so
> it
>>>> has to avoid ECMP.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Andy
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> Andy,
>>>> 
>>>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet PWs, so its
>>>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the sequence
> number
>>>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may not be zero.
>>>> 
>>>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation that does
not
>>>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> John  
>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
> HaSharon)
>>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>> 
>>>>> Stewart,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>>>>> discussion last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there
>>>>> was whether what we gain from putting a PW label and CW in the
>>>>> stack to separate the MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are
>>>>> worth the cost:
>>>>> 
>>>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute the PW
label
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>>>> 
>>>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with the S
>> bit)
>>>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>>>>> (although you have been arguing against using the serial
>>>>> number in your last few
>>>>> emails)
>>>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW (assuming
>>>>> that a serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in
>>>>> case there's a provisioning problem
>>>>> 
>>>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the stack in
>>>>> the unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>>>>> switch. I'm still not convinced that it's worth the cost,
>>>>> although I could possibly still be convinced. Are there any
>>>>> other advantages that I've missed?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Andy
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>>>> To: Drake, John E
>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
> HaSharon)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>> 
>>>>> John
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an MPLS
payload
>>>>> over
>>>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>>>>> methodology :)
>>>>> 
>>>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW
>>>>> is expected.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Stewart
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>> 
>> 
> 

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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "George Swallow" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
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>-----Original Message-----
>From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com] 
>Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:45 AM
>To: Drake, John E; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
>
>
>On 1/26/09 1:15 PM, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> wrote:
>
>>  
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 10:04 AM
>>> To: Drake, John E; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod 
>HaSharon)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> Several points here.
>>> 
>>> First the reserve values you speak of are all reserved in the IP 
>>> Protocol number space.  I do not believe that the powers 
>that be will 
>>> be very please with a proposal that says that we will use 
>values that 
>>> they may later define as a new IP version.
>> 
>> JD:  Then how was PW able to get the values '0' and '1'?
>
>We got the values reserved as part of getting the PW control 
>word RFC approved.  There is no notation that these belong to 
>PW per se.  It simply reserves them from ever being allocated.

JD:  So, are you saying that we can re-use them?

>
>>> Second, the we're okay happens only if I filter on the labels that 
>>> the client sends me.
>> 
>> JD:  Who is 'I' and who is 'client'?  The endpoints will understand 
>> the labels they have allocated, and it keeps intermediate nodes from 
>> performing ECMP on MPLS payloads.
>
>The I is the server.  If the server network wants to make sure 
>that nothing will arrive that could be mistaken for IP or PW 
>then it would need to filter what the client sends.

JD:  This issue would arise only if the client were to re-use one of the
defined values in the first nibble of its label, and in that case the
server would not be able to detect it. 

>
>Also, I should note that current implementation of Label 
>allocators would not be happy with new restrictions on what 
>values can be used.  Nor would most of us be happy about 
>reducing the label space by 25%.

JD:  I think it actually reduces the size of the label space by a factor
of 16 (2**4), but who is counting?

If we can say definitively that ECMP will never be deployed in an MPLS
TP network, I would much prefer to go with using a reserved label at the
bottom of the server stack, as proposed by Neil.  

>
>...George
>
>>> I don't like the "better yet" as I want IP as well as MPLS.
>> 
>> JD:  If one takes the position that MPLS is part of IP, then 
>> allocating a nibble value to MPLS makes sense to me.  It also 
>> addresses the issue you raised in your first paragraph, 
>above, as well 
>> as your point about running IP and MPLS (and PW) over the 
>same SP MPLS LSP.
>>  
>>> 
>>> ...George
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 1/26/09 12:56 PM, "Drake, John E" 
><John.E.Drake2@boeing.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> George,
>>>> 
>>>> Are we not okay as long as we ensure that the first nibble 
>of *any* 
>>>> client MPLS label does not have the values '0', '1', '4' 
>or '6'?  Or 
>>>> better yet, define a new value that indicates 'payload is MPLS'?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> John
>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:48 AM
>>>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, John E; stbryant@cisco.com
>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
>>> HaSharon)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>> 
>>>>> An MPLS PW is fine if you want to run MPLS-TP over MPLS or
>>> MPLS-TP.  
>>>>> However if you want to run MPLS as it currently exists in 10s of 
>>>>> thousands of devices, then  you need a PW that can carry 
>IP as well 
>>>>> as all the control and OAM depends on it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So whatever solution we get to needs to carry both MPLS and
>>> IP.  And
>>>>> if that is the case then relying on EOS is a non-starter.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ...George
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 1/26/09 12:01 PM, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)"
>>>>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> John,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This would be for an MPLS PW, which we have not yet 
>defined (a new 
>>>>>> MPLS PW draft would be required). Thus, we are free to make
>>>>> up the rules.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Note that I'm still pretty much in agreement that we 
>don't need an 
>>>>>> MPLS PW to run MPLS over MPLS-TP (I'm still awaiting further
>>>>> arguments
>>>>>> from Stewart or anyone else that wants to argue in favor of
>>>>> using a PW).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> However, I do think that we would need an MPLS-TP PW if we
>>> wanted to
>>>>>> run MPLS-TP over MPLS (that came up last week as well).
>>> The primary
>>>>>> issue here is that MPLS-TP over MPLS would require in-order
>>>>> delivery,
>>>>>> so it has to avoid ECMP.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:54 AM
>>>>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); stbryant@cisco.com
>>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
>>> HaSharon)
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Per RFC 4448, the control word is optional for Ethernet
>>> PWs, so its
>>>>>> presence cannot be counted on.  If it is present, the
>>>>> sequence number
>>>>>> field may be used so that the bottom sixteen bits may 
>not be zero.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Given that we are talking about a rogue implementation
>>> that does not
>>>>>> respect the 'end of stack' bit, I don't see much utility.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> John
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) 
>[mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:42 AM
>>>>>>> To: stbryant@cisco.com; Drake, John E
>>>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
>>>>>>> HaSharon)
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Stewart,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Boy, talk about dredging up old emails ...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I've been thinking some more about this issue since our
>>> discussion
>>>>>>> last week in Ipswich.  The question I asked there was
>>>>> whether what we
>>>>>>> gain from putting a PW label and CW in the stack to 
>separate the 
>>>>>>> MPLS-TP stack and the MPLS stack are worth the cost:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> - 64 additional bits in the packet header (obviously)
>>>>>>> - LDP signaling between the PW endpoints to distribute
>>> the PW label
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As I see it, what we gain is:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> - a clear demark (although you would get that as well with
>>>>> the S bit)
>>>>>>> - a serial number so that the MPLS PW can be kept in-order
>>>>> (although
>>>>>>> you have been arguing against using the serial number in
>>> your last
>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>> emails)
>>>>>>> - a non-IP first nibble and a zero TTL in the CW 
>(assuming that a 
>>>>>>> serial number is not used) to "poison the stack" in case
>>> there's a
>>>>>>> provisioning problem
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So it really comes down to having the "poison" in the
>>> stack in the
>>>>>>> unlikely case of a provisioning mismatch in an endpoint
>>> switch. I'm
>>>>>>> still not convinced that it's worth the cost, although I could 
>>>>>>> possibly still be convinced. Are there any other advantages
>>>>> that I've
>>>>>>> missed?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org 
>>>>>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart 
>>>>>>> Bryant
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:26 AM
>>>>>>> To: Drake, John E
>>>>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod
>>>>>>> HaSharon)
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> JD:  *Requiring* a PW header in order to transport an
>>> MPLS payload
>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>> an MPLS LSP strikes me as an IQ test that one has failed.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I always fail those - I take it to indicate a faulty test
>>>>> methodology
>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The CW will poison the packet anywhere other than where a CW is 
>>>>>>> expected.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Stewart
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>
>
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Hi All,

Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS
over MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server MPLS-TP LSP
using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?

rahul


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From: "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
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Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Rahul Aggarwal
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP


Hi All,

Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS
over MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server MPLS-TP
LSP
using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?

rahul


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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Rahul Aggarwal wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS
> over MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server MPLS-TP LSP
> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>
> rahul
>
>
>
>   
Rahul

You do not just have MPLS traffic between a pair of MPLS LSRs.

You have: IP traffic for control and OAM, routing traffic
which may be carried in IP or may be carried over the datalink
as in ISIS, you may have CDP or your oen variant etc etc.

Stewart


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References: <C5A4ACD9.D64B%swallow@cisco.com> <20090127180128.T76169@sapphire.juniper.net> <49806CA9.2040601@cisco.com>
From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: <stbryant@cisco.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Stewart,

If the client and server agree to share the same stack, there is no
reason that this would not work.  As an existence proof, we have MPLS
and non-MPLS traffic sharing links today.

Thanks,

John  

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com] 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 6:33 AM
>To: Rahul Aggarwal
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake, 
>John E; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Rahul Aggarwal wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over 
>> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server 
>MPLS-TP LSP 
>> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>>
>> rahul
>>
>>
>>
>>   
>Rahul
>
>You do not just have MPLS traffic between a pair of MPLS LSRs.
>
>You have: IP traffic for control and OAM, routing traffic 
>which may be carried in IP or may be carried over the datalink 
>as in ISIS, you may have CDP or your oen variant etc etc.
>
>Stewart
>
>
>
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From: Rahul Aggarwal <rahul@juniper.net>
To: "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Hi Nurit,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:

> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>

What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?

rahul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Rahul Aggarwal
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS
> over MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server MPLS-TP
> LSP
> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>
> rahul
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
>
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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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References: <C5A4ACD9.D64B%swallow@cisco.com><20090127180128.T76169@sapphire.juniper.net><077E41CFFD002C4CAB7DFA4386A532643C1996@DEMUEXC014.nsn-intra.net> <20090128090426.V76169@sapphire.juniper.net>
From: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Rahul,

	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we don't
have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being transported over
MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, FR and Ethernet).  If
we need to also transport "other stuff" over the same MPLS-TP LSP,
then we need to have a way to demux the MPLS tarffic from "other 
stuff."  Otherwise, we would need to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to
transport separate traffic types...

--
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP


Hi Nurit,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:

> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>

What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?

rahul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Rahul Aggarwal
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS
> over MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server MPLS-TP
> LSP
> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>
> rahul
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
>
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From: Rahul Aggarwal <rahul@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Hi Eric,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Eric Gray wrote:

> Rahul,
>
> 	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we don't
> have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being transported over
> MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, FR and Ethernet).  If
> we need to also transport "other stuff" over the same MPLS-TP LSP,
> then we need to have a way to demux the MPLS tarffic from "other
> stuff."  Otherwise, we would need to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to
> transport separate traffic types...
>

Why is it not sufficient to use the same existing mechanisms that allow a
MPLS LSP to transport another MPLS LSP or a PW or an IP packet?

rahul

> --
> Eric
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
> To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
> Hi Nurit,
>
> On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>
> > Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
> >
>
> What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>
> rahul
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> > [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Rahul Aggarwal
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
> > To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
> > Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> > Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS
> > over MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server MPLS-TP
> > LSP
> > using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
> >
> > rahul
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mpls-interop mailing list
> > Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
>
_______________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:26:18 -0800
From: Rahul Aggarwal <rahul@juniper.net>
To: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Hi John,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Drake, John E wrote:

> Stewart,
>
> If the client and server agree to share the same stack, there is no
> reason that this would not work.  As an existence proof, we have MPLS
> and non-MPLS traffic sharing links today.
>

Agreed!!

rahul

> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 6:33 AM
> >To: Rahul Aggarwal
> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake,
> >John E; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >Rahul Aggarwal wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over
> >> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
> >MPLS-TP LSP
> >> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
> >>
> >> rahul
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Rahul
> >
> >You do not just have MPLS traffic between a pair of MPLS LSRs.
> >
> >You have: IP traffic for control and OAM, routing traffic
> >which may be carried in IP or may be carried over the datalink
> >as in ISIS, you may have CDP or your oen variant etc etc.
> >
> >Stewart
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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From: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
To: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Eric and Rahul,

That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that Stewart,
George, and I had on the phone today where we talked out a lot of these
issues. 

If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a pair of
routers in order replace current inter-router links that currently use
PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol delineation, then you need to
be able to transport everything that gets trunked between routers now -
not just MPLS packets, but also unlabeled IP, CLNP for IS-IS, private
protocols, and so on. So just a label stack with the S bit, or using
label hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never interconnect routers
with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear demarcation between
provider and client protocol headers for a number of operational and in
some cases regulatory reasons.

We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's obvious
that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since both Ethernet and PPP
are currently used for router interconnection, but we would like to
avoid the baggage and overhead that goes along with them. So our
thinking is to write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient generic PW that
includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. Note that
defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter. That will give us
a nice efficient demarcation point between the provider and client, and
it uses an already existing protocol registry (PPP protocol IDs).

Cheers,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

Rahul,

	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we don't
have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being transported over
MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, FR and Ethernet).  If
we need to also transport "other stuff" over the same MPLS-TP LSP,
then we need to have a way to demux the MPLS tarffic from "other 
stuff."  Otherwise, we would need to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to
transport separate traffic types...

--
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP


Hi Nurit,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:

> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>

What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?

rahul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Rahul Aggarwal
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS
> over MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server MPLS-TP
> LSP
> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>
> rahul
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
>
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From: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Rahul,

	Well, I might be a little weak on the subject of how an LSR
knows
the difference between LSP/LSP verses PW/LSP - except at the end points
of the transported LSP or PW (where the terminating LSR is presumed to 
know what it is dealing with).

	But the difference here is that your talking about things in an 
inverted order.  We can distinguish LSP over LSP from IP over LSP both
by the BoS bit and the label.  In this case, MPLS/MPLS-TP is what we
are talking about (i.e. - an MPLS-TP transport service might be used 
to transport an MPLS LSP, OAM traffic, and maybe one or more PWs or IP 
packets).

	Because we can't be sure now that an MPLS-TP LSP will be exactly

the same as any other LSP, transporting an MPLS-TP LSP over an MPLS LSP 
MUST be considered (at least at this point) as potentially different 
from transporting an MPLS LSP over an MPLS-TP LSP.

--
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: Rahul Aggarwal [mailto:rahul@juniper.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:07 PM
To: Eric Gray
Cc: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); mpls-interop@ietf.org;
Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
Importance: High


Hi Eric,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Eric Gray wrote:

> Rahul,
>
> 	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we don't
> have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being transported over
> MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, FR and Ethernet).  If
> we need to also transport "other stuff" over the same MPLS-TP LSP,
> then we need to have a way to demux the MPLS tarffic from "other
> stuff."  Otherwise, we would need to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to
> transport separate traffic types...
>

Why is it not sufficient to use the same existing mechanisms that allow
a
MPLS LSP to transport another MPLS LSP or a PW or an IP packet?

rahul

> --
> Eric
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
> To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
> Hi Nurit,
>
> On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>
> > Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
> >
>
> What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>
> rahul
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> > [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Rahul
Aggarwal
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
> > To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
> > Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> > Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS
> > over MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
MPLS-TP
> > LSP
> > using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
> >
> > rahul
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mpls-interop mailing list
> > Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
>
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From: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Again, this inverted.  We have MPLS and non-MPLS traffic sharing links
where demuxing is defined for this capability (i.e. - PPP, Ethernet, 
FR, ATM).

--
Eric 

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:26 PM
To: Drake, John E
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP


Hi John,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Drake, John E wrote:

> Stewart,
>
> If the client and server agree to share the same stack, there is no
> reason that this would not work.  As an existence proof, we have MPLS
> and non-MPLS traffic sharing links today.
>

Agreed!!

rahul

> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 6:33 AM
> >To: Rahul Aggarwal
> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Drake,
> >John E; Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >Rahul Aggarwal wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over
> >> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
> >MPLS-TP LSP
> >> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
> >>
> >> rahul
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Rahul
> >
> >You do not just have MPLS traffic between a pair of MPLS LSRs.
> >
> >You have: IP traffic for control and OAM, routing traffic
> >which may be carried in IP or may be carried over the datalink
> >as in ISIS, you may have CDP or your oen variant etc etc.
> >
> >Stewart
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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From: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
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Andy,

	Thanks!  This is a very good example of what I was trying to
get at...

--
Eric 

-----Original Message-----
From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:31 PM
To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
Importance: High

Eric and Rahul,

That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that Stewart,
George, and I had on the phone today where we talked out a lot of these
issues. 

If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a pair of
routers in order replace current inter-router links that currently use
PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol delineation, then you need to
be able to transport everything that gets trunked between routers now -
not just MPLS packets, but also unlabeled IP, CLNP for IS-IS, private
protocols, and so on. So just a label stack with the S bit, or using
label hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never interconnect routers
with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear demarcation between
provider and client protocol headers for a number of operational and in
some cases regulatory reasons.

We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's obvious
that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since both Ethernet and PPP
are currently used for router interconnection, but we would like to
avoid the baggage and overhead that goes along with them. So our
thinking is to write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient generic PW that
includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. Note that
defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter. That will give us
a nice efficient demarcation point between the provider and client, and
it uses an already existing protocol registry (PPP protocol IDs).

Cheers,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

Rahul,

	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we don't
have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being transported over
MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, FR and Ethernet).  If
we need to also transport "other stuff" over the same MPLS-TP LSP,
then we need to have a way to demux the MPLS tarffic from "other 
stuff."  Otherwise, we would need to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to
transport separate traffic types...

--
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP


Hi Nurit,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:

> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>

What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?

rahul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Rahul Aggarwal
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS
> over MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server MPLS-TP
> LSP
> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>
> rahul
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
>
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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
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Andy,

What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and
server stacks.  If the client and server share the same stack, you are
dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.

So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if
there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I
don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.

Thanks,

John  

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com] 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
>To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Eric and Rahul,
>
>That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that 
>Stewart, George, and I had on the phone today where we talked 
>out a lot of these issues. 
>
>If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a 
>pair of routers in order replace current inter-router links 
>that currently use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol 
>delineation, then you need to be able to transport everything 
>that gets trunked between routers now - not just MPLS packets, 
>but also unlabeled IP, CLNP for IS-IS, private protocols, and 
>so on. So just a label stack with the S bit, or using label 
>hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never interconnect 
>routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear 
>demarcation between provider and client protocol headers for a 
>number of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
>
>We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's 
>obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since both 
>Ethernet and PPP are currently used for router 
>interconnection, but we would like to avoid the baggage and 
>overhead that goes along with them. So our thinking is to 
>write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient generic PW that 
>includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. Note 
>that defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter. 
>That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between 
>the provider and client, and it uses an already existing 
>protocol registry (PPP protocol IDs).
>
>Cheers,
>Andy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
>To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Rahul,
>
>	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we 
>don't have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being 
>transported over MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, 
>FR and Ethernet).  If we need to also transport "other stuff" 
>over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux 
>the MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need 
>to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
>
>--
>Eric
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
>To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
>Hi Nurit,
>
>On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>
>> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>>
>
>What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>
>rahul
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext 
>Rahul Aggarwal
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over 
>> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server 
>MPLS-TP LSP 
>> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>>
>> rahul
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Mpls-interop mailing list
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>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>_______________________________________________
>Mpls-interop mailing list
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>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
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>Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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References: <C5A4ACD9.D64B%swallow@cisco.com><20090127180128.T76169@sapphire.juniper.net><077E41CFFD002C4CAB7DFA4386A532643C1996@DEMUEXC014.nsn-intra.net><20090128090426.V76169@sapphire.juniper.net><941D5DCD8C42014FAF70FB7424686DCF0487DB96@eusrcmw721.eamcs.ericsson.se> <01F652C8CDBE7D4EB7ED860698C6D9737BC9DB@FHDP1LUMXCV24.us.one.verizon.com> <51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016B7718@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com>
From: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
To: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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John,

Looks like I have another requirement to make sure is in the
requirements draft. :-)

More seriously, at least speaking from a Verizon point of view, we do
need a clear separation between client and provider stacks. That may not
be true for all providers, but it is in our case.

Cheers,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:41 PM
To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit
(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

Andy,

What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and
server stacks.  If the client and server share the same stack, you are
dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.

So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if
there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I
don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.

Thanks,

John  

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com] 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
>To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Eric and Rahul,
>
>That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that 
>Stewart, George, and I had on the phone today where we talked 
>out a lot of these issues. 
>
>If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a 
>pair of routers in order replace current inter-router links 
>that currently use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol 
>delineation, then you need to be able to transport everything 
>that gets trunked between routers now - not just MPLS packets, 
>but also unlabeled IP, CLNP for IS-IS, private protocols, and 
>so on. So just a label stack with the S bit, or using label 
>hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never interconnect 
>routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear 
>demarcation between provider and client protocol headers for a 
>number of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
>
>We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's 
>obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since both 
>Ethernet and PPP are currently used for router 
>interconnection, but we would like to avoid the baggage and 
>overhead that goes along with them. So our thinking is to 
>write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient generic PW that 
>includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. Note 
>that defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter. 
>That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between 
>the provider and client, and it uses an already existing 
>protocol registry (PPP protocol IDs).
>
>Cheers,
>Andy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
>To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Rahul,
>
>	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we 
>don't have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being 
>transported over MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, 
>FR and Ethernet).  If we need to also transport "other stuff" 
>over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux 
>the MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need 
>to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
>
>--
>Eric
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
>To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
>Hi Nurit,
>
>On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>
>> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>>
>
>What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>
>rahul
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext 
>Rahul Aggarwal
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over 
>> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server 
>MPLS-TP LSP 
>> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>>
>> rahul
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Mpls-interop mailing list
>Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>_______________________________________________
>Mpls-interop mailing list
>Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>_______________________________________________
>Mpls-interop mailing list
>Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>
_______________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:59:55 -0800
From: Rahul Aggarwal <rahul@juniper.net>
To: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Hi John and Andy,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Drake, John E wrote:

> Andy,
>
> What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and
> server stacks.  If the client and server share the same stack, you are
> dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.
>

I think what John calls the "separate client and server stacks" is the
key to this conversation.

> So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if
> there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I
> don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.
>

That is my understanding as well.

rahul

> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
> >To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >Eric and Rahul,
> >
> >That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that
> >Stewart, George, and I had on the phone today where we talked
> >out a lot of these issues.
> >
> >If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a
> >pair of routers in order replace current inter-router links
> >that currently use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol
> >delineation, then you need to be able to transport everything
> >that gets trunked between routers now - not just MPLS packets,
> >but also unlabeled IP, CLNP for IS-IS, private protocols, and
> >so on. So just a label stack with the S bit, or using label
> >hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never interconnect
> >routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear
> >demarcation between provider and client protocol headers for a
> >number of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
> >
> >We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's
> >obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since both
> >Ethernet and PPP are currently used for router
> >interconnection, but we would like to avoid the baggage and
> >overhead that goes along with them. So our thinking is to
> >write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient generic PW that
> >includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. Note
> >that defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter.
> >That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between
> >the provider and client, and it uses an already existing
> >protocol registry (PPP protocol IDs).
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Andy
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
> >To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >Rahul,
> >
> >	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we
> >don't have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being
> >transported over MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM,
> >FR and Ethernet).  If we need to also transport "other stuff"
> >over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux
> >the MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need
> >to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
> >
> >--
> >Eric
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
> >To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >
> >Hi Nurit,
> >
> >On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
> >
> >> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
> >>
> >
> >What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
> >
> >rahul
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> >> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext
> >Rahul Aggarwal
> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
> >> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over
> >> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
> >MPLS-TP LSP
> >> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
> >>
> >> rahul
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Mpls-interop mailing list
> >> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Mpls-interop mailing list
> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >_______________________________________________
> >Mpls-interop mailing list
> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >_______________________________________________
> >Mpls-interop mailing list
> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >
>
>
_______________________________________________
Mpls-interop mailing list
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:09:38 -0800
From: Rahul Aggarwal <rahul@juniper.net>
To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Hi Andy,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:

> John,
>
> Looks like I have another requirement to make sure is in the
> requirements draft. :-)
>
> More seriously, at least speaking from a Verizon point of view, we do
> need a clear separation between client and provider stacks. That may not
> be true for all providers, but it is in our case.
>

What exactly is meant by "clear separation"? What constitutes this "clear
separation"?

When MPLS is carried over MPLS-TP why does the PW approach that you
describe below provide "a clear separation" between client and provider
stacks while MPLS LSP hierarchy does not?

Note that I am not arguing against using PWs for carrying PPP or ethernet
etc over MPLS-TP. All I am saying is that we should use MPLS LSP hierarchy
for carrying MPLS over MPLS-TP; PWs for carrying Layer 2 traffic over
MPLS-TP; and carry IP over MPLS-TP either directly or using an IP PW. In
other words use existing technology. If folks want optimizations to this
technology, that has to be optional.

rahul

> Cheers,
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:41 PM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit
> (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
> Andy,
>
> What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and
> server stacks.  If the client and server share the same stack, you are
> dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.
>
> So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if
> there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I
> don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
> >To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >Eric and Rahul,
> >
> >That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that
> >Stewart, George, and I had on the phone today where we talked
> >out a lot of these issues.
> >
> >If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a
> >pair of routers in order replace current inter-router links
> >that currently use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol
> >delineation, then you need to be able to transport everything
> >that gets trunked between routers now - not just MPLS packets,
> >but also unlabeled IP, CLNP for IS-IS, private protocols, and
> >so on. So just a label stack with the S bit, or using label
> >hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never interconnect
> >routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear
> >demarcation between provider and client protocol headers for a
> >number of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
> >
> >We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's
> >obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since both
> >Ethernet and PPP are currently used for router
> >interconnection, but we would like to avoid the baggage and
> >overhead that goes along with them. So our thinking is to
> >write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient generic PW that
> >includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. Note
> >that defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter.
> >That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between
> >the provider and client, and it uses an already existing
> >protocol registry (PPP protocol IDs).
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Andy
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
> >To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >Rahul,
> >
> >	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we
> >don't have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being
> >transported over MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM,
> >FR and Ethernet).  If we need to also transport "other stuff"
> >over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux
> >the MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need
> >to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
> >
> >--
> >Eric
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
> >To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >
> >Hi Nurit,
> >
> >On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
> >
> >> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
> >>
> >
> >What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
> >
> >rahul
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> >> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext
> >Rahul Aggarwal
> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
> >> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over
> >> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
> >MPLS-TP LSP
> >> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
> >>
> >> rahul
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Mpls-interop mailing list
> >> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Mpls-interop mailing list
> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >_______________________________________________
> >Mpls-interop mailing list
> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >_______________________________________________
> >Mpls-interop mailing list
> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >
>
>
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From: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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John,

	When you say "separate client and server stacks", you must mean
at the same layer (i.e. - both visible to the end-point routers), as
opposed to one transporting the other, right?

	If that is the case, then - if you allow that signaling is also
transported over the same router-router link as a transported service,
then (or course) there is a requirement for "separate client and server 
stacks"...

--
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:41 PM
To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit
(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
Importance: High

Andy,

What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and
server stacks.  If the client and server share the same stack, you are
dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.

So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if
there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I
don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.

Thanks,

John  

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com] 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
>To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Eric and Rahul,
>
>That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that 
>Stewart, George, and I had on the phone today where we talked 
>out a lot of these issues. 
>
>If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a 
>pair of routers in order replace current inter-router links 
>that currently use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol 
>delineation, then you need to be able to transport everything 
>that gets trunked between routers now - not just MPLS packets, 
>but also unlabeled IP, CLNP for IS-IS, private protocols, and 
>so on. So just a label stack with the S bit, or using label 
>hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never interconnect 
>routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear 
>demarcation between provider and client protocol headers for a 
>number of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
>
>We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's 
>obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since both 
>Ethernet and PPP are currently used for router 
>interconnection, but we would like to avoid the baggage and 
>overhead that goes along with them. So our thinking is to 
>write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient generic PW that 
>includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. Note 
>that defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter. 
>That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between 
>the provider and client, and it uses an already existing 
>protocol registry (PPP protocol IDs).
>
>Cheers,
>Andy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
>To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Rahul,
>
>	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we 
>don't have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being 
>transported over MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, 
>FR and Ethernet).  If we need to also transport "other stuff" 
>over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux 
>the MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need 
>to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
>
>--
>Eric
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
>To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
>Hi Nurit,
>
>On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>
>> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>>
>
>What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>
>rahul
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext 
>Rahul Aggarwal
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over 
>> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server 
>MPLS-TP LSP 
>> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>>
>> rahul
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>
>>
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References: <C5A4ACD9.D64B%swallow@cisco.com><20090127180128.T76169@sapphire.juniper.net><077E41CFFD002C4CAB7DFA4386A532643C1996@DEMUEXC014.nsn-intra.net><20090128090426.V76169@sapphire.juniper.net><941D5DCD8C42014FAF70FB7424686DCF0487DB96@eusrcmw721.eamcs.ericsson.se> <01F652C8CDBE7D4EB7ED860698C6D9737BC9DB@FHDP1LUMXCV24.us.one.verizon.com> <51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016B7718@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com> <941D5DCD8C42014FAF70FB7424686DCF0487DDA7@eusrcmw721.eamcs.ericsson.se>
From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Eric,

No, I meant a server MPLS stack, followed by an MPLS payload, as opposed
to an IPv4, IPv6, or PW payload.

Thanks,

John  

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Eric Gray [mailto:eric.gray@ericsson.com] 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:21 PM
>To: Drake, John E; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Rahul Aggarwal; 
>Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>John,
>
>	When you say "separate client and server stacks", you 
>must mean at the same layer (i.e. - both visible to the 
>end-point routers), as opposed to one transporting the other, right?
>
>	If that is the case, then - if you allow that signaling 
>is also transported over the same router-router link as a 
>transported service, then (or course) there is a requirement 
>for "separate client and server stacks"...
>
>--
>Eric
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:41 PM
>To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; 
>Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>Importance: High
>
>Andy,
>
>What you write below is true *only* if there are separate 
>client and server stacks.  If the client and server share the 
>same stack, you are dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I 
>replied to Stewart.
>
>So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS 
>payload if there is a requirement for separate client and 
>server stacks, and I don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.
>
>Thanks,
>
>John  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
>>To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>>Eric and Rahul,
>>
>>That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that Stewart, 
>>George, and I had on the phone today where we talked out a 
>lot of these 
>>issues.
>>
>>If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect 
>a pair of 
>>routers in order replace current inter-router links that 
>currently use 
>>PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol delineation, then 
>you need to 
>>be able to transport everything that gets trunked between 
>routers now - 
>>not just MPLS packets, but also unlabeled IP, CLNP for IS-IS, private 
>>protocols, and so on. So just a label stack with the S bit, or using 
>>label hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never 
>interconnect routers 
>>with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear demarcation between 
>>provider and client protocol headers for a number of 
>operational and in 
>>some cases regulatory reasons.
>>
>>We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. 
>It's obvious 
>>that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since both Ethernet and PPP 
>>are currently used for router interconnection, but we would like to 
>>avoid the baggage and overhead that goes along with them. So our 
>>thinking is to write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient 
>generic PW that 
>>includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. Note that 
>>defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter.
>>That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between the 
>>provider and client, and it uses an already existing protocol 
>registry 
>>(PPP protocol IDs).
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Andy
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
>>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
>>To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>>Rahul,
>>
>>	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we 
>don't have a 
>>mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being transported over MPLS-TP 
>>(like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, FR and Ethernet).  If we need to 
>>also transport "other stuff"
>>over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to 
>demux the MPLS 
>>tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need to have 
>separate 
>>MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
>>
>>--
>>Eric
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
>>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
>>To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>>
>>Hi Nurit,
>>
>>On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>>
>>> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>>>
>>
>>What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>>
>>rahul
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext
>>Rahul Aggarwal
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
>>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over 
>>> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
>>MPLS-TP LSP
>>> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>>>
>>> rahul
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Mpls-interop mailing list
>>Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>_______________________________________________
>>Mpls-interop mailing list
>>Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>_______________________________________________
>>Mpls-interop mailing list
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>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>
>
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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Rahul and Andy,

I think some very crisp requirements describing what is and is not
permitted in the data plane are needed.  For example, what exactly does
two label stack separated by a generic PW header actually buy you versus
either a shared label stack or two back to back stacks?

Thanks,

John 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rahul Aggarwal [mailto:rahul@juniper.net] 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:10 PM
>To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
>Cc: Drake, John E; Eric Gray; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod 
>HaSharon); mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - 
>IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
>Hi Andy,
>
>On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Looks like I have another requirement to make sure is in the 
>> requirements draft. :-)
>>
>> More seriously, at least speaking from a Verizon point of 
>view, we do 
>> need a clear separation between client and provider stacks. That may 
>> not be true for all providers, but it is in our case.
>>
>
>What exactly is meant by "clear separation"? What constitutes 
>this "clear separation"?
>
>When MPLS is carried over MPLS-TP why does the PW approach 
>that you describe below provide "a clear separation" between 
>client and provider stacks while MPLS LSP hierarchy does not?
>
>Note that I am not arguing against using PWs for carrying PPP 
>or ethernet etc over MPLS-TP. All I am saying is that we 
>should use MPLS LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over MPLS-TP; 
>PWs for carrying Layer 2 traffic over MPLS-TP; and carry IP 
>over MPLS-TP either directly or using an IP PW. In other words 
>use existing technology. If folks want optimizations to this 
>technology, that has to be optional.
>
>rahul
>
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:41 PM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, 
>> Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>> Andy,
>>
>> What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and 
>> server stacks.  If the client and server share the same 
>stack, you are 
>> dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.
>>
>> So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if 
>> there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I 
>> don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
>> >To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod 
>> >HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >Eric and Rahul,
>> >
>> >That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that 
>Stewart, 
>> >George, and I had on the phone today where we talked out a lot of 
>> >these issues.
>> >
>> >If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a pair 
>> >of routers in order replace current inter-router links that 
>currently 
>> >use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol delineation, then you 
>> >need to be able to transport everything that gets trunked between 
>> >routers now - not just MPLS packets, but also unlabeled IP, 
>CLNP for 
>> >IS-IS, private protocols, and so on. So just a label stack 
>with the S 
>> >bit, or using label hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never 
>> >interconnect routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear 
>> >demarcation between provider and client protocol headers 
>for a number 
>> >of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
>> >
>> >We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's 
>> >obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since 
>both Ethernet 
>> >and PPP are currently used for router interconnection, but we would 
>> >like to avoid the baggage and overhead that goes along with 
>them. So 
>> >our thinking is to write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient 
>generic PW 
>> >that includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. 
>Note that 
>> >defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter.
>> >That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between the 
>> >provider and client, and it uses an already existing protocol 
>> >registry (PPP protocol IDs).
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >Andy
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
>> >To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >Rahul,
>> >
>> >	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we 
>don't have a 
>> >mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being transported 
>over MPLS-TP 
>> >(like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, FR and Ethernet).  If 
>we need to 
>> >also transport "other stuff"
>> >over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux the 
>> >MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need to have 
>> >separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
>> >
>> >--
>> >Eric
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
>> >To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi Nurit,
>> >
>> >On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>> >
>> >> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>> >>
>> >
>> >What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>> >
>> >rahul
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org 
>> >> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext
>> >Rahul Aggarwal
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
>> >> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi All,
>> >>
>> >> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying 
>MPLS over 
>> >> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
>> >MPLS-TP LSP
>> >> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>> >>
>> >> rahul
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
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>> >_______________________________________________
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>> >
>>
>>
>
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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, neil.2.harrison@bt.com
Subject: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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E-mail from Neil that he asked me to send to the group, as he is having
trouble getting subscribed.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harrison,N,Neil,CXM R
> Sent: 28 January 2009 10:15
> To: 'Drake, John E'; andrew.g.malis@verizon.com; 
> Niven-jenkins,B,Ben,DMF R
> Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk
> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> 
> Thanks John,
> 
> Well we simply have to deprecate ECMP....this is supposed to be a 
> *transport* network, so rule No. 1 is C/S transparency.
> This means several important things, but fundamentally it means a 
> server layer network must never try and guess the meaning of any 
> client layer symbols, and for sure never change them.  So it's not 
> even something we can debate....it must happen.
> 
> Likewise the other 2 must-have behaviours are:
> -	OOB CP/MP
> -	respect rules of a connection (principally single source).
> 
> So the above are the absolute min set of requirements on MPLS-TP....if

> it does not meet them then the work will be worthless and should be 
> abandoned IMO.
> 
> Now if you do this then there are 2 corollaries:
> -	there is no notion of a common CP instance (or any func 
> component instance) between C and S layers
> -	there is no reason to have PWs at all....but if they 
> are kept (political reasons) the thing that must not happen is the 
> creation of further co-ps layer network above MPLS-TP....that would be

> just plain madness given the effort to get MPLS-TP right.....so any 
> notion of PWs must go back to being an adaptation function.
> 
> The above are all 'must do', but there are other behaviours that are 
> important 'should do' too:
> -	the always-on defect detection/handling OAM should look 
> like normal traffic......it won't if they use label 13 as 'OAM 
> indicate' (right solution is that OAM indicate should be flag in the 
> normal traffic unit header), but I can live with that;
> -	we should be able to a C/S relationship with MPLS and 
> MPLS-TP over MPLS-TP.....and my strong opinion here is that this 
> should have a special DP label that the server layer inserts (in the 
> adaptation) to indicate a clear DP partitioning between the 2 MPLS 
> networks. Note - This is
> *only* necessary if we want to keep sublayering using the S bit....I 
> think this is daft (how many other transport networks do you know that

> use sublayering like this or even PWs?).....and I also urge great 
> caution in adopting TCM OAM stuff.....but it seems some vendors have 
> already made their minds up this stuff is going in here.
> -	there must be no notion of peer interworking any 
> network modes/technologies that are not top-of-stack.
> 
> If we do that lot then MPLS-TP will be in fine shape.  It cannot be 
> perfect, but it can claim to have removed most of the arch flaws that 
> currently exist in MPLS.
> 
> To be prefect it would need:
> -	a more functionally rich header, including SA, DA, 
> muxing ID, PID with no need for label-swapping...won't happen
> -	OAM indicate in normal header.....could happen, but won't
> -	a section layer specification (ie ability to modulate 
> an EM wave to 'put bits of the wire')....could happen, but won't (not 
> a trivial exercise)
> 
> regards, Neil	
>  
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From: Ben Niven-Jenkins <benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com>
To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>, Rahul Aggarwal <rahul@juniper.net>, "Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)" <nurit.sprecher@nsn.com>
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MPLS-TP must support the separation that Andy mentions.  It is essentially
the fundamental service provided by a transport network - i.e. Ability to
carry another party's (the client) network over the transport network
infrastructure while maintaining complete independence of the client's DP,
CP, MP from those of the transport network. This is what G.805 would refer
to as a client/server relationship.

I thought this was well understood.  The current requirements draft does not
explicitly state this as a requirement but it is somewhat hidden in the
other requirements.  Section 1.2. Transport Network overview states the
following

   An important attribute of a transport network is that it is able to
   function regardless of which clients are using its connection service
   or over which transmission media it is running.  The client,
   transport network and server layers are from a functional and
   operations point of view independent layer networks.


Ben

On 28/01/2009 19:56, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
wrote:

> John,
> 
> Looks like I have another requirement to make sure is in the
> requirements draft. :-)
> 
> More seriously, at least speaking from a Verizon point of view, we do
> need a clear separation between client and provider stacks. That may not
> be true for all providers, but it is in our case.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:41 PM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit
> (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> 
> Andy,
> 
> What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and
> server stacks.  If the client and server share the same stack, you are
> dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.
> 
> So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if
> there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I
> don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
>> To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> Eric and Rahul,
>> 
>> That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that
>> Stewart, George, and I had on the phone today where we talked
>> out a lot of these issues.
>> 
>> If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a
>> pair of routers in order replace current inter-router links
>> that currently use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol
>> delineation, then you need to be able to transport everything
>> that gets trunked between routers now - not just MPLS packets,
>> but also unlabeled IP, CLNP for IS-IS, private protocols, and
>> so on. So just a label stack with the S bit, or using label
>> hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never interconnect
>> routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear
>> demarcation between provider and client protocol headers for a
>> number of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
>> 
>> We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's
>> obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since both
>> Ethernet and PPP are currently used for router
>> interconnection, but we would like to avoid the baggage and
>> overhead that goes along with them. So our thinking is to
>> write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient generic PW that
>> includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. Note
>> that defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter.
>> That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between
>> the provider and client, and it uses an already existing
>> protocol registry (PPP protocol IDs).
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
>> To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> Rahul,
>> 
>> For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we
>> don't have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being
>> transported over MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM,
>> FR and Ethernet).  If we need to also transport "other stuff"
>> over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux
>> the MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need
>> to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
>> 
>> --
>> Eric
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
>> To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Nurit,
>> 
>> On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>> 
>>> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>>> 
>> 
>> What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>> 
>> rahul
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext
>> Rahul Aggarwal
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
>>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi All,
>>> 
>>> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over
>>> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
>> MPLS-TP LSP 
>>> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>>> 
>>> rahul
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>> 
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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References: <C5A4ACD9.D64B%swallow@cisco.com><20090127180128.T76169@sapphire.juniper.net><077E41CFFD002C4CAB7DFA4386A532643C1996@DEMUEXC014.nsn-intra.net><20090128090426.V76169@sapphire.juniper.net><941D5DCD8C42014FAF70FB7424686DCF0487DB96@eusrcmw721.eamcs.ericsson.se><01F652C8CDBE7D4EB7ED860698C6D9737BC9DB@FHDP1LUMXCV24.us.one.verizon.com><51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016B7718@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com><01F652C8CDBE7D4EB7ED860698C6D9737BC9F8@FHDP1LUMXCV24.us.one.verizon.com><20090128120121.G76169@sapphire.juniper.net> <51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016B776C@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com>
From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>
To: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Andy,

What type of label will be used on the client MPLS link? Will it be
assigned by the MPLS-TP border node? It would help also if you could
define your expectations for the control plane aspects of the MPLS
client/MPLS-TP server.

In CCAMP, there's several RFCs on supporting MPLS (MPLS control plane)
over MPLS (GMPLS control plane), and also there's the work on stitching
and hierarchy which cover MPLS over MPLS and how to handle the e2e
signaling. It's not so much the data plane aspects as the control
capabilities which need to be understood. The same will be true if using
a management plane. If one is using a vlan or SONET interface to
segregate traffic and no other grooming is needed then a simple data
plane mapping could be used. But if want grooming granularity and "TE
capabilities" then some control mapping/interworking will be needed at
the MPLS/MPLS-TP border node and also MPLS OAM support will be needed on
the link between the MPLS node and MPLS/MPLS-TP border node.

Also, in l3vpn, there's Kenji's document on
draft-ietf-l3vpn-e2e-rsvp-te-reqts which discusses providing an MPLS
service and includes security aspects which need to be considered:
"In terms of control plane, in the models of C-RSVP paths and C-TE 
   LSPs both, a PE receives IPv4 or IPv6 RSVP control packets from a CE.

   If the CE is an untrusted router for service providers, the PE MUST 
   be able to limit IPv4 or IPv6 RSVP control packets. If the CE is a 
   trusted router for service providers, the PE MAY be able to limit 
   IPv4 or IPv6 control packets.  
    
   In terms of data plane, in the model of C-TE LSPs, a PE receives 
   labeled IPv4 or IPv6 data packets from a CE. If the CE is an 
   untrusted router for service providers, the PE MUST be able to limit 
   labeled IPv4 or IPv6 data packets. If the CE is a trusted router for 
   service providers, the PE MAY be able to limit labeled IPv4 or IPv6 
   data packets. Specifically, the PE must drop MPLS-labeled packets if 
   the MPLS label was not assigned over the PE-CE link on which the 
   packet was received. The PE must also be able to police traffic to 
   the traffic profile associated with the LSP on which traffic is 
   received on the PE-CE link."

Deborah

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Drake, John E
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:38 PM
To: Rahul Aggarwal; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

Rahul and Andy,

I think some very crisp requirements describing what is and is not
permitted in the data plane are needed.  For example, what exactly does
two label stack separated by a generic PW header actually buy you versus
either a shared label stack or two back to back stacks?

Thanks,

John 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rahul Aggarwal [mailto:rahul@juniper.net] 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:10 PM
>To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
>Cc: Drake, John E; Eric Gray; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod 
>HaSharon); mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - 
>IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
>Hi Andy,
>
>On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Looks like I have another requirement to make sure is in the 
>> requirements draft. :-)
>>
>> More seriously, at least speaking from a Verizon point of 
>view, we do 
>> need a clear separation between client and provider stacks. That may 
>> not be true for all providers, but it is in our case.
>>
>
>What exactly is meant by "clear separation"? What constitutes 
>this "clear separation"?
>
>When MPLS is carried over MPLS-TP why does the PW approach 
>that you describe below provide "a clear separation" between 
>client and provider stacks while MPLS LSP hierarchy does not?
>
>Note that I am not arguing against using PWs for carrying PPP 
>or ethernet etc over MPLS-TP. All I am saying is that we 
>should use MPLS LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over MPLS-TP; 
>PWs for carrying Layer 2 traffic over MPLS-TP; and carry IP 
>over MPLS-TP either directly or using an IP PW. In other words 
>use existing technology. If folks want optimizations to this 
>technology, that has to be optional.
>
>rahul
>
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:41 PM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, 
>> Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>> Andy,
>>
>> What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and 
>> server stacks.  If the client and server share the same 
>stack, you are 
>> dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.
>>
>> So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if 
>> there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I 
>> don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
>> >To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod 
>> >HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >Eric and Rahul,
>> >
>> >That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that 
>Stewart, 
>> >George, and I had on the phone today where we talked out a lot of 
>> >these issues.
>> >
>> >If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a pair 
>> >of routers in order replace current inter-router links that 
>currently 
>> >use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol delineation, then you 
>> >need to be able to transport everything that gets trunked between 
>> >routers now - not just MPLS packets, but also unlabeled IP, 
>CLNP for 
>> >IS-IS, private protocols, and so on. So just a label stack 
>with the S 
>> >bit, or using label hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never 
>> >interconnect routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear 
>> >demarcation between provider and client protocol headers 
>for a number 
>> >of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
>> >
>> >We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's 
>> >obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since 
>both Ethernet 
>> >and PPP are currently used for router interconnection, but we would 
>> >like to avoid the baggage and overhead that goes along with 
>them. So 
>> >our thinking is to write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient 
>generic PW 
>> >that includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. 
>Note that 
>> >defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter.
>> >That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between the 
>> >provider and client, and it uses an already existing protocol 
>> >registry (PPP protocol IDs).
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >Andy
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
>> >To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >Rahul,
>> >
>> >	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we 
>don't have a 
>> >mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being transported 
>over MPLS-TP 
>> >(like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, FR and Ethernet).  If 
>we need to 
>> >also transport "other stuff"
>> >over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux the 
>> >MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need to have 
>> >separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
>> >
>> >--
>> >Eric
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
>> >To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi Nurit,
>> >
>> >On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>> >
>> >> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>> >>
>> >
>> >What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>> >
>> >rahul
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org 
>> >> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext
>> >Rahul Aggarwal
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
>> >> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi All,
>> >>
>> >> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying 
>MPLS over 
>> >> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
>> >MPLS-TP LSP
>> >> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>> >>
>> >> rahul
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >>
>> >>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >
>>
>>
>
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From: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Rahul,

	The PW approach provides the demux point I mentioned.

	What Andy and Ben have been talking about has nothing 
to do with optimizations.  Our customers are usually quite
clear on what they mean in defining the differences between
requirements and optimizations.

--
Eric 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rahul Aggarwal [mailto:rahul@juniper.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:10 PM
To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
Cc: Drake, John E; Eric Gray; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon);
mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP


Hi Andy,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:

> John,
>
> Looks like I have another requirement to make sure is in the
> requirements draft. :-)
>
> More seriously, at least speaking from a Verizon point of view, we do
> need a clear separation between client and provider stacks. That may
not
> be true for all providers, but it is in our case.
>

What exactly is meant by "clear separation"? What constitutes this
"clear
separation"?

When MPLS is carried over MPLS-TP why does the PW approach that you
describe below provide "a clear separation" between client and provider
stacks while MPLS LSP hierarchy does not?

Note that I am not arguing against using PWs for carrying PPP or
ethernet
etc over MPLS-TP. All I am saying is that we should use MPLS LSP
hierarchy
for carrying MPLS over MPLS-TP; PWs for carrying Layer 2 traffic over
MPLS-TP; and carry IP over MPLS-TP either directly or using an IP PW. In
other words use existing technology. If folks want optimizations to this
technology, that has to be optional.

rahul

> Cheers,
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:41 PM
> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher,
Nurit
> (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
> Andy,
>
> What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and
> server stacks.  If the client and server share the same stack, you are
> dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.
>
> So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if
> there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I
> don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
> >To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod
HaSharon)
> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >Eric and Rahul,
> >
> >That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that
> >Stewart, George, and I had on the phone today where we talked
> >out a lot of these issues.
> >
> >If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a
> >pair of routers in order replace current inter-router links
> >that currently use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol
> >delineation, then you need to be able to transport everything
> >that gets trunked between routers now - not just MPLS packets,
> >but also unlabeled IP, CLNP for IS-IS, private protocols, and
> >so on. So just a label stack with the S bit, or using label
> >hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never interconnect
> >routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear
> >demarcation between provider and client protocol headers for a
> >number of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
> >
> >We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's
> >obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since both
> >Ethernet and PPP are currently used for router
> >interconnection, but we would like to avoid the baggage and
> >overhead that goes along with them. So our thinking is to
> >write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient generic PW that
> >includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. Note
> >that defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter.
> >That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between
> >the provider and client, and it uses an already existing
> >protocol registry (PPP protocol IDs).
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Andy
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
> >To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >Rahul,
> >
> >	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we
> >don't have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being
> >transported over MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM,
> >FR and Ethernet).  If we need to also transport "other stuff"
> >over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux
> >the MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need
> >to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
> >
> >--
> >Eric
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
> >To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >
> >Hi Nurit,
> >
> >On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
> >
> >> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
> >>
> >
> >What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
> >
> >rahul
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> >> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext
> >Rahul Aggarwal
> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
> >> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over
> >> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
> >MPLS-TP LSP
> >> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
> >>
> >> rahul
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Mpls-interop mailing list
> >> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Mpls-interop mailing list
> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >_______________________________________________
> >Mpls-interop mailing list
> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >_______________________________________________
> >Mpls-interop mailing list
> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
> >
>
>
_______________________________________________
Mpls-interop mailing list
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References: <C5A4ACD9.D64B%swallow@cisco.com><20090127180128.T76169@sapphire.juniper.net><077E41CFFD002C4CAB7DFA4386A532643C1996@DEMUEXC014.nsn-intra.net><20090128090426.V76169@sapphire.juniper.net><941D5DCD8C42014FAF70FB7424686DCF0487DB96@eusrcmw721.eamcs.ericsson.se> <01F652C8CDBE7D4EB7ED860698C6D9737BC9DB@FHDP1LUMXCV24.us.one.verizon.com> <51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016B7718@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com> <01F652C8CDBE7D4EB7ED860698C6D9737BC9F8@FHDP1LUMXCV24.us.one.verizon.com> <20090128120121.G76169@sapphire.juniper.net> <941D5DCD8C42014FAF70FB7424686DCF0487E0D7@eusrcmw721.eamcs.ericsson.se>
From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>, neil.2.harrison@bt.com
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Eric,

Invoking PW to solve an MPLS issue seems to be intrinsically ill
considered.  I think Niel's solution, placing a reserved label at the
bottom of the server stack seems to be a natural extension to RFC 3032.

Thanks,

John   

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Eric Gray [mailto:eric.gray@ericsson.com] 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:05 PM
>To: Rahul Aggarwal; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
>Cc: Drake, John E; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); 
>mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Rahul,
>
>	The PW approach provides the demux point I mentioned.
>
>	What Andy and Ben have been talking about has nothing 
>to do with optimizations.  Our customers are usually quite 
>clear on what they mean in defining the differences between 
>requirements and optimizations.
>
>--
>Eric 
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rahul Aggarwal [mailto:rahul@juniper.net]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:10 PM
>To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
>Cc: Drake, John E; Eric Gray; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod 
>HaSharon); mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - 
>IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
>Hi Andy,
>
>On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Looks like I have another requirement to make sure is in the
>> requirements draft. :-)
>>
>> More seriously, at least speaking from a Verizon point of view, we do
>> need a clear separation between client and provider stacks. That may
>not
>> be true for all providers, but it is in our case.
>>
>
>What exactly is meant by "clear separation"? What constitutes this
>"clear
>separation"?
>
>When MPLS is carried over MPLS-TP why does the PW approach that you
>describe below provide "a clear separation" between client and provider
>stacks while MPLS LSP hierarchy does not?
>
>Note that I am not arguing against using PWs for carrying PPP or
>ethernet
>etc over MPLS-TP. All I am saying is that we should use MPLS LSP
>hierarchy
>for carrying MPLS over MPLS-TP; PWs for carrying Layer 2 traffic over
>MPLS-TP; and carry IP over MPLS-TP either directly or using an 
>IP PW. In
>other words use existing technology. If folks want 
>optimizations to this
>technology, that has to be optional.
>
>rahul
>
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:41 PM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher,
>Nurit
>> (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>> Andy,
>>
>> What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and
>> server stacks.  If the client and server share the same 
>stack, you are
>> dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.
>>
>> So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if
>> there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I
>> don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
>> >To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod
>HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >Eric and Rahul,
>> >
>> >That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that
>> >Stewart, George, and I had on the phone today where we talked
>> >out a lot of these issues.
>> >
>> >If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a
>> >pair of routers in order replace current inter-router links
>> >that currently use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol
>> >delineation, then you need to be able to transport everything
>> >that gets trunked between routers now - not just MPLS packets,
>> >but also unlabeled IP, CLNP for IS-IS, private protocols, and
>> >so on. So just a label stack with the S bit, or using label
>> >hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never interconnect
>> >routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear
>> >demarcation between provider and client protocol headers for a
>> >number of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
>> >
>> >We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's
>> >obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since both
>> >Ethernet and PPP are currently used for router
>> >interconnection, but we would like to avoid the baggage and
>> >overhead that goes along with them. So our thinking is to
>> >write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient generic PW that
>> >includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. Note
>> >that defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter.
>> >That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between
>> >the provider and client, and it uses an already existing
>> >protocol registry (PPP protocol IDs).
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >Andy
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
>> >To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >Rahul,
>> >
>> >	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we
>> >don't have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being
>> >transported over MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM,
>> >FR and Ethernet).  If we need to also transport "other stuff"
>> >over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux
>> >the MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need
>> >to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
>> >
>> >--
>> >Eric
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
>> >To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi Nurit,
>> >
>> >On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>> >
>> >> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>> >>
>> >
>> >What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>> >
>> >rahul
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> >> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext
>> >Rahul Aggarwal
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
>> >> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi All,
>> >>
>> >> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over
>> >> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
>> >MPLS-TP LSP
>> >> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>> >>
>> >> rahul
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >>
>> >>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >
>>
>>
>
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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
Thread-Index: AcmBhF2eNGHERsAIQmODdENUukIkcQAF/G7wAABrzQAAADbysA==
References: <C5A4ACD9.D64B%swallow@cisco.com><20090127180128.T76169@sapphire.juniper.net><077E41CFFD002C4CAB7DFA4386A532643C1996@DEMUEXC014.nsn-intra.net><20090128090426.V76169@sapphire.juniper.net><941D5DCD8C42014FAF70FB7424686DCF0487DB96@eusrcmw721.eamcs.ericsson.se> <01F652C8CDBE7D4EB7ED860698C6D9737BC9DB@FHDP1LUMXCV24.us.one.verizon.com> <51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016B7718@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com> <01F652C8CDBE7D4EB7ED860698C6D9737BC9F8@FHDP1LUMXCV24.us.one.verizon.com> <20090128120121.G76169@sapphire.juniper.net> <941D5DCD8C42014FAF70FB7424686DCF0487E0D7@eusrcmw721.eamcs.ericsson.se> <51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016B783B@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com>
From: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>, neil.2.harrison@bt.com
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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John,

	That also would provide a demux point, and would be quite
acceptable - at least from that perspective.  My answer below 
was simply addressing what the solution Andy mentioned does.

--
Eric 

-----Original Message-----
From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 6:17 PM
To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
Cc: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); mpls-interop@ietf.org;
Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); neil.2.harrison@bt.com
Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
Importance: High

Eric,

Invoking PW to solve an MPLS issue seems to be intrinsically ill
considered.  I think Niel's solution, placing a reserved label at the
bottom of the server stack seems to be a natural extension to RFC 3032.

Thanks,

John   

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Eric Gray [mailto:eric.gray@ericsson.com] 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:05 PM
>To: Rahul Aggarwal; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
>Cc: Drake, John E; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); 
>mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Rahul,
>
>	The PW approach provides the demux point I mentioned.
>
>	What Andy and Ben have been talking about has nothing 
>to do with optimizations.  Our customers are usually quite 
>clear on what they mean in defining the differences between 
>requirements and optimizations.
>
>--
>Eric 
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rahul Aggarwal [mailto:rahul@juniper.net]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:10 PM
>To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
>Cc: Drake, John E; Eric Gray; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod 
>HaSharon); mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - 
>IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
>Hi Andy,
>
>On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Looks like I have another requirement to make sure is in the
>> requirements draft. :-)
>>
>> More seriously, at least speaking from a Verizon point of view, we do
>> need a clear separation between client and provider stacks. That may
>not
>> be true for all providers, but it is in our case.
>>
>
>What exactly is meant by "clear separation"? What constitutes this
>"clear
>separation"?
>
>When MPLS is carried over MPLS-TP why does the PW approach that you
>describe below provide "a clear separation" between client and provider
>stacks while MPLS LSP hierarchy does not?
>
>Note that I am not arguing against using PWs for carrying PPP or
>ethernet
>etc over MPLS-TP. All I am saying is that we should use MPLS LSP
>hierarchy
>for carrying MPLS over MPLS-TP; PWs for carrying Layer 2 traffic over
>MPLS-TP; and carry IP over MPLS-TP either directly or using an 
>IP PW. In
>other words use existing technology. If folks want 
>optimizations to this
>technology, that has to be optional.
>
>rahul
>
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:41 PM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher,
>Nurit
>> (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>> Andy,
>>
>> What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and
>> server stacks.  If the client and server share the same 
>stack, you are
>> dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.
>>
>> So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if
>> there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I
>> don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
>> >To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod
>HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >Eric and Rahul,
>> >
>> >That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that
>> >Stewart, George, and I had on the phone today where we talked
>> >out a lot of these issues.
>> >
>> >If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a
>> >pair of routers in order replace current inter-router links
>> >that currently use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol
>> >delineation, then you need to be able to transport everything
>> >that gets trunked between routers now - not just MPLS packets,
>> >but also unlabeled IP, CLNP for IS-IS, private protocols, and
>> >so on. So just a label stack with the S bit, or using label
>> >hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never interconnect
>> >routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear
>> >demarcation between provider and client protocol headers for a
>> >number of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
>> >
>> >We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's
>> >obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since both
>> >Ethernet and PPP are currently used for router
>> >interconnection, but we would like to avoid the baggage and
>> >overhead that goes along with them. So our thinking is to
>> >write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient generic PW that
>> >includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. Note
>> >that defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter.
>> >That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between
>> >the provider and client, and it uses an already existing
>> >protocol registry (PPP protocol IDs).
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >Andy
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
>> >To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >Rahul,
>> >
>> >	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we
>> >don't have a mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being
>> >transported over MPLS-TP (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM,
>> >FR and Ethernet).  If we need to also transport "other stuff"
>> >over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux
>> >the MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need
>> >to have separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
>> >
>> >--
>> >Eric
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
>> >To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi Nurit,
>> >
>> >On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>> >
>> >> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>> >>
>> >
>> >What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>> >
>> >rahul
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> >> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext
>> >Rahul Aggarwal
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
>> >> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi All,
>> >>
>> >> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over
>> >> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
>> >MPLS-TP LSP
>> >> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>> >>
>> >> rahul
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >>
>> >>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >_______________________________________________
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>> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >
>>
>>
>
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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:01:09 +0000
From: Ben Niven-Jenkins <benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com>
To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, Rahul Aggarwal <rahul@juniper.net>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Colleagues,

I am struggling to follow the thread which may be to do with my lack of
cycles to read everything properly.

I am struggling to understand who is proposing what and for each proposal:
- what scenario(s) it is addressing
- what scenario(s) it is not addressing
- what, if any, interactions are required between the client & server layer
networks.

The requirement Andy/I have is for example for BT's network to carry a link
between two VZ routers such that that link appears identical to VZ's routers
as though VZ had run a cable across the floor directly between them.

Ben



On 28/01/2009 21:36, "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>
wrote:

> Andy,
> 
> What type of label will be used on the client MPLS link? Will it be
> assigned by the MPLS-TP border node? It would help also if you could
> define your expectations for the control plane aspects of the MPLS
> client/MPLS-TP server.
> 
> In CCAMP, there's several RFCs on supporting MPLS (MPLS control plane)
> over MPLS (GMPLS control plane), and also there's the work on stitching
> and hierarchy which cover MPLS over MPLS and how to handle the e2e
> signaling. It's not so much the data plane aspects as the control
> capabilities which need to be understood. The same will be true if using
> a management plane. If one is using a vlan or SONET interface to
> segregate traffic and no other grooming is needed then a simple data
> plane mapping could be used. But if want grooming granularity and "TE
> capabilities" then some control mapping/interworking will be needed at
> the MPLS/MPLS-TP border node and also MPLS OAM support will be needed on
> the link between the MPLS node and MPLS/MPLS-TP border node.
> 
> Also, in l3vpn, there's Kenji's document on
> draft-ietf-l3vpn-e2e-rsvp-te-reqts which discusses providing an MPLS
> service and includes security aspects which need to be considered:
> "In terms of control plane, in the models of C-RSVP paths and C-TE
>    LSPs both, a PE receives IPv4 or IPv6 RSVP control packets from a CE.
> 
>    If the CE is an untrusted router for service providers, the PE MUST
>    be able to limit IPv4 or IPv6 RSVP control packets. If the CE is a
>    trusted router for service providers, the PE MAY be able to limit
>    IPv4 or IPv6 control packets.
>     
>    In terms of data plane, in the model of C-TE LSPs, a PE receives
>    labeled IPv4 or IPv6 data packets from a CE. If the CE is an
>    untrusted router for service providers, the PE MUST be able to limit
>    labeled IPv4 or IPv6 data packets. If the CE is a trusted router for
>    service providers, the PE MAY be able to limit labeled IPv4 or IPv6
>    data packets. Specifically, the PE must drop MPLS-labeled packets if
>    the MPLS label was not assigned over the PE-CE link on which the
>    packet was received. The PE must also be able to police traffic to
>    the traffic profile associated with the LSP on which traffic is
>    received on the PE-CE link."
> 
> Deborah
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Drake, John E
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:38 PM
> To: Rahul Aggarwal; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> 
> Rahul and Andy,
> 
> I think some very crisp requirements describing what is and is not
> permitted in the data plane are needed.  For example, what exactly does
> two label stack separated by a generic PW header actually buy you versus
> either a shared label stack or two back to back stacks?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rahul Aggarwal [mailto:rahul@juniper.net]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:10 PM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
>> Cc: Drake, John E; Eric Gray; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod
>> HaSharon); mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN -
>> IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Andy,
>> 
>> On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:
>> 
>>> John,
>>> 
>>> Looks like I have another requirement to make sure is in the
>>> requirements draft. :-)
>>> 
>>> More seriously, at least speaking from a Verizon point of
>> view, we do 
>>> need a clear separation between client and provider stacks. That may
>>> not be true for all providers, but it is in our case.
>>> 
>> 
>> What exactly is meant by "clear separation"? What constitutes
>> this "clear separation"?
>> 
>> When MPLS is carried over MPLS-TP why does the PW approach
>> that you describe below provide "a clear separation" between
>> client and provider stacks while MPLS LSP hierarchy does not?
>> 
>> Note that I am not arguing against using PWs for carrying PPP
>> or ethernet etc over MPLS-TP. All I am saying is that we
>> should use MPLS LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over MPLS-TP;
>> PWs for carrying Layer 2 traffic over MPLS-TP; and carry IP
>> over MPLS-TP either directly or using an IP PW. In other words
>> use existing technology. If folks want optimizations to this
>> technology, that has to be optional.
>> 
>> rahul
>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:41 PM
>>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher,
>>> Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>> 
>>> Andy,
>>> 
>>> What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and
>>> server stacks.  If the client and server share the same
>> stack, you are 
>>> dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.
>>> 
>>> So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if
>>> there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I
>>> don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
>>>> To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod
>>>> HaSharon)
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> Eric and Rahul,
>>>> 
>>>> That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that
>> Stewart, 
>>>> George, and I had on the phone today where we talked out a lot of
>>>> these issues.
>>>> 
>>>> If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a pair
>>>> of routers in order replace current inter-router links that
>> currently 
>>>> use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol delineation, then you
>>>> need to be able to transport everything that gets trunked between
>>>> routers now - not just MPLS packets, but also unlabeled IP,
>> CLNP for 
>>>> IS-IS, private protocols, and so on. So just a label stack
>> with the S 
>>>> bit, or using label hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never
>>>> interconnect routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear
>>>> demarcation between provider and client protocol headers
>> for a number 
>>>> of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
>>>> 
>>>> We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's
>>>> obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since
>> both Ethernet 
>>>> and PPP are currently used for router interconnection, but we would
>>>> like to avoid the baggage and overhead that goes along with
>> them. So 
>>>> our thinking is to write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient
>> generic PW 
>>>> that includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word.
>> Note that 
>>>> defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter.
>>>> That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between the
>>>> provider and client, and it uses an already existing protocol
>>>> registry (PPP protocol IDs).
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Andy
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
>>>> To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> Rahul,
>>>> 
>>>> For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we
>> don't have a 
>>>> mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being transported
>> over MPLS-TP 
>>>> (like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, FR and Ethernet).  If
>> we need to 
>>>> also transport "other stuff"
>>>> over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux the
>>>> MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need to have
>>>> separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Eric
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
>>>> To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Nurit,
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>>>> 
>>>> rahul
>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext
>>>> Rahul Aggarwal
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
>>>>> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying
>> MPLS over 
>>>>> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
>>>> MPLS-TP LSP
>>>>> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>>>>> 
>>>>> rahul
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Mpls-interop mailing list
>>>> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Drake, John E wrote:
> Stewart,
>
> If the client and server agree to share the same stack, there is no
> reason that this would not work.  As an existence proof, we have MPLS
> and non-MPLS traffic sharing links today.
>   
John

Yes - today there is a PID in the datalink that is used to discriminate 
between
the MPLS encapsulated data, and the IP control and OAM traffic. If
it's ISIS we need to get the various hellos, LSPs etc over as well. Then
we might have CDP etc etc.

So to connect the two LSRs together over an MPLS-TP cloud you
need some multiplexing technique.

Today this multiplexing is achieved using a data link with a PID
carried over a physical link or a virtual physical link (PW).

How are you proposing to carry the additional packet types over
an MPLS-TP network with a path that is only constructed to
carry MPLS packets?

Stewart

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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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From: "Eric Gray" <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A, ATTLABS" <dbrungard@att.com>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Deborah,

	Not sure how any of what you ask relates to the discussion.

	In a simple case, a router might have an Ethernet over SONET
connection to an MPLS-TP service providing a connection to an IP-
adjacent router.  The MPLS-TP service connection in this case would
require insertion of some defined label at each router for traffic
addressed to the other router, using the MPLS unicast over Ethernet
code point - and (since the service is defined as MPLS-TP) no other
encapsulation is allowed (or would result in properly delivered 
data).  Otherwise, the MPLS-TP transport service looks like a wire.

	In this case, the only way these two routers have to talk to
each other is to use the appropriate labels/encapsulation defined 
for the MPLS-TP service.  All sorts of traffic would be getting
sent back and forth across this MPLS-TP link, including - in the
case under discussion - IP packets used to signal MPLS LSP setup
for some finite but (effectively) arbitrary number of MPLS LSPs.

	From a purely layering perspective, there are a number of
clean ways to do this.  The two routers might have a configured
PPP connection over the MPLS-TP link (as Andy has suggested some
number of exchanges ago) and that would allow for the usual PPP
demultiplexing (which would, among other things, allow the two
routers to distinguish the IP signaling traffic from the MPLS
labeled traffic).  Other approaches might be used as well, such
as (for instance) Ethernet over PW over the MPLS-TP link.

	The advantage of these approaches is that routers already
talk to each other very well using a PPP or an Ethernet link
for the purposes we're talking about.  Defining interfaces and
configuring connections between routers using these approaches
is very likely to work for many different routers from many
different router vendors.

	But these approaches are wasteful in terms of overhead
required for the extra headers.

	We could cut out all of the extra stuff by simply having
MPLS directly over the MPLS-TP service - as Rahul and John have
(repeatedly) suggested - and that would even allow for a demux
between IP and MPLS (provided by the BoS bit).  But this is a
link between routers, and routers may do other nifty things 
other than IP and MPLS traffic - so how do you demultiplex any
thing other than IP and MPLS?  

	In addition, because the MPLS-TP LSP between two routers 
provides a "transport service", [IP | MPLS] over the MPLS-TP 
transport service is the logical equivalent of [IP | MPLS] over 
<wire>.  Who currently defines their interfaces that way?  What
are the management objects associated with management of such
interfaces?

	The bottom line is that - even in a nice simple case, with
none of the complications you mention below - the world is not 
the simple place that some people initially thought it was.

	Suggestions that reduce the amount of waste, while keeping
the ability to demultiplex different traffic types, should be
considered.  Completely eliminating the waste may be much harder
in the final analysis...

--
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A,
ATTLABS
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:36 PM
To: Drake, John E; Rahul Aggarwal; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

Andy,

What type of label will be used on the client MPLS link? Will it be
assigned by the MPLS-TP border node? It would help also if you could
define your expectations for the control plane aspects of the MPLS
client/MPLS-TP server.

In CCAMP, there's several RFCs on supporting MPLS (MPLS control plane)
over MPLS (GMPLS control plane), and also there's the work on stitching
and hierarchy which cover MPLS over MPLS and how to handle the e2e
signaling. It's not so much the data plane aspects as the control
capabilities which need to be understood. The same will be true if using
a management plane. If one is using a vlan or SONET interface to
segregate traffic and no other grooming is needed then a simple data
plane mapping could be used. But if want grooming granularity and "TE
capabilities" then some control mapping/interworking will be needed at
the MPLS/MPLS-TP border node and also MPLS OAM support will be needed on
the link between the MPLS node and MPLS/MPLS-TP border node.

Also, in l3vpn, there's Kenji's document on
draft-ietf-l3vpn-e2e-rsvp-te-reqts which discusses providing an MPLS
service and includes security aspects which need to be considered:
"In terms of control plane, in the models of C-RSVP paths and C-TE 
   LSPs both, a PE receives IPv4 or IPv6 RSVP control packets from a CE.

   If the CE is an untrusted router for service providers, the PE MUST 
   be able to limit IPv4 or IPv6 RSVP control packets. If the CE is a 
   trusted router for service providers, the PE MAY be able to limit 
   IPv4 or IPv6 control packets.  
    
   In terms of data plane, in the model of C-TE LSPs, a PE receives 
   labeled IPv4 or IPv6 data packets from a CE. If the CE is an 
   untrusted router for service providers, the PE MUST be able to limit 
   labeled IPv4 or IPv6 data packets. If the CE is a trusted router for 
   service providers, the PE MAY be able to limit labeled IPv4 or IPv6 
   data packets. Specifically, the PE must drop MPLS-labeled packets if 
   the MPLS label was not assigned over the PE-CE link on which the 
   packet was received. The PE must also be able to police traffic to 
   the traffic profile associated with the LSP on which traffic is 
   received on the PE-CE link."

Deborah

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Drake, John E
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:38 PM
To: Rahul Aggarwal; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP

Rahul and Andy,

I think some very crisp requirements describing what is and is not
permitted in the data plane are needed.  For example, what exactly does
two label stack separated by a generic PW header actually buy you versus
either a shared label stack or two back to back stacks?

Thanks,

John 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rahul Aggarwal [mailto:rahul@juniper.net] 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:10 PM
>To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)
>Cc: Drake, John E; Eric Gray; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod 
>HaSharon); mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - 
>IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>
>Hi Andy,
>
>On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Looks like I have another requirement to make sure is in the 
>> requirements draft. :-)
>>
>> More seriously, at least speaking from a Verizon point of 
>view, we do 
>> need a clear separation between client and provider stacks. That may 
>> not be true for all providers, but it is in our case.
>>
>
>What exactly is meant by "clear separation"? What constitutes 
>this "clear separation"?
>
>When MPLS is carried over MPLS-TP why does the PW approach 
>that you describe below provide "a clear separation" between 
>client and provider stacks while MPLS LSP hierarchy does not?
>
>Note that I am not arguing against using PWs for carrying PPP 
>or ethernet etc over MPLS-TP. All I am saying is that we 
>should use MPLS LSP hierarchy for carrying MPLS over MPLS-TP; 
>PWs for carrying Layer 2 traffic over MPLS-TP; and carry IP 
>over MPLS-TP either directly or using an IP PW. In other words 
>use existing technology. If folks want optimizations to this 
>technology, that has to be optional.
>
>rahul
>
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:41 PM
>> To: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy); Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, 
>> Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>
>> Andy,
>>
>> What you write below is true *only* if there are separate client and 
>> server stacks.  If the client and server share the same 
>stack, you are 
>> dealing with plain vanilla MPLS, as I replied to Stewart.
>>
>> So, we only need to address the issue of carrying an MPLS payload if 
>> there is a requirement for separate client and server stacks, and I 
>> don't actually recall seeing such a requirement.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) [mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com]
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:31 AM
>> >To: Eric Gray; Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod 
>> >HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >Eric and Rahul,
>> >
>> >That's a perfect introduction to relating a discussion that 
>Stewart, 
>> >George, and I had on the phone today where we talked out a lot of 
>> >these issues.
>> >
>> >If you want to use an MPLS-TP transport pipe to interconnect a pair 
>> >of routers in order replace current inter-router links that 
>currently 
>> >use PoS or Ethernet for framing and protocol delineation, then you 
>> >need to be able to transport everything that gets trunked between 
>> >routers now - not just MPLS packets, but also unlabeled IP, 
>CLNP for 
>> >IS-IS, private protocols, and so on. So just a label stack 
>with the S 
>> >bit, or using label hierarchy is insufficient, since we'll never 
>> >interconnect routers with ONLY MPLS, and operators require a clear 
>> >demarcation between provider and client protocol headers 
>for a number 
>> >of operational and in some cases regulatory reasons.
>> >
>> >We talked about various alternatives for the demarcation. It's 
>> >obvious that you could use an Ethernet or PPP PW, since 
>both Ethernet 
>> >and PPP are currently used for router interconnection, but we would 
>> >like to avoid the baggage and overhead that goes along with 
>them. So 
>> >our thinking is to write a new PWE3 draft for an efficient 
>generic PW 
>> >that includes a protocol ID (from PPP) in the control word. 
>Note that 
>> >defining a generic PW is already in the PWE3 charter.
>> >That will give us a nice efficient demarcation point between the 
>> >provider and client, and it uses an already existing protocol 
>> >registry (PPP protocol IDs).
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >Andy
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Gray
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:48 PM
>> >To: Rahul Aggarwal; Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >Rahul,
>> >
>> >	For one thing, as is implied in Stewart's response, we 
>don't have a 
>> >mechanism for indicating that MPLS is being transported 
>over MPLS-TP 
>> >(like we do for MPLS over PPP, ATM, FR and Ethernet).  If 
>we need to 
>> >also transport "other stuff"
>> >over the same MPLS-TP LSP, then we need to have a way to demux the 
>> >MPLS tarffic from "other stuff."  Otherwise, we would need to have 
>> >separate MPLS-TP LSPs to transport separate traffic types...
>> >
>> >--
>> >Eric
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org
>> >[mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahul Aggarwal
>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:05 PM
>> >To: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org; Weingarten,Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi Nurit,
>> >
>> >On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote:
>> >
>> >> Better demarcation between the MPLS and the MPLS-TP layers....
>> >>
>> >
>> >What precisely is meant by "better demarcation"?
>> >
>> >rahul
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org 
>> >> [mailto:mpls-interop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext
>> >Rahul Aggarwal
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 04:09
>> >> To: mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >> Cc: Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>> >> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi All,
>> >>
>> >> Why is it not possible to use LSP hierarchy for carrying 
>MPLS over 
>> >> MPLS-TP? The client MPLS LSP would be carried in a server
>> >MPLS-TP LSP
>> >> using LSP hierarchy. Why can't this be the default behavior?
>> >>
>> >> rahul
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >>
>> >>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Mpls-interop mailing list
>> >Mpls-interop@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop
>> >_______________________________________________
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>> >_______________________________________________
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>> >
>>
>>
>
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>
> The requirement Andy/I have is for example for BT's network to carry a link
> between two VZ routers such that that link appears identical to VZ's routers
> as though VZ had run a cable across the floor directly between them.
>
> Ben
>
>   
In which case it's not just MPLS pkts that you have to exchange.

Stewart


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From: Ben Niven-Jenkins <benjamin.niven-jenkins@bt.com>
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On 29/01/2009 00:14, "Stewart Bryant" <stbryant@cisco.com> wrote:
>> The requirement Andy/I have is for example for BT's network to carry a link
>> between two VZ routers such that that link appears identical to VZ's routers
>> as though VZ had run a cable across the floor directly between them.
>>   
> In which case it's not just MPLS pkts that you have to exchange.

Correct.

Ben

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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
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Stewart,

This is an e-mail I sent Andy last month, and again on Monday:

"Great.  So, it is up to the client endpoints of the MPLS TP LSP to
understand the payload contents and we could have as payloads, for
example, MPLS packets with their own label stack, IP packets, or
ethernet PW packets which in turn contain, for example, MPLS packets or
IP packets."

So, I was optimizing for the MPLS and IP traffic, and carrying the other
stuff in a PW.

Thanks,

John    

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com] 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:11 PM
>To: Drake, John E
>Cc: Rahul Aggarwal; mpls-interop@ietf.org; Malis, Andrew G. 
>(Andy); Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Drake, John E wrote:
>> Stewart,
>>
>> If the client and server agree to share the same stack, there is no 
>> reason that this would not work.  As an existence proof, we 
>have MPLS 
>> and non-MPLS traffic sharing links today.
>>   
>John
>
>Yes - today there is a PID in the datalink that is used to 
>discriminate between the MPLS encapsulated data, and the IP 
>control and OAM traffic. If it's ISIS we need to get the 
>various hellos, LSPs etc over as well. Then we might have CDP etc etc.
>
>So to connect the two LSRs together over an MPLS-TP cloud you 
>need some multiplexing technique.
>
>Today this multiplexing is achieved using a data link with a 
>PID carried over a physical link or a virtual physical link (PW).
>
>How are you proposing to carry the additional packet types 
>over an MPLS-TP network with a path that is only constructed 
>to carry MPLS packets?
>
>Stewart
>
>
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From: Rahul Aggarwal <rahul@juniper.net>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Hi John and Ben,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Drake, John E wrote:

> Stewart,
>
> This is an e-mail I sent Andy last month, and again on Monday:
>
> "Great.  So, it is up to the client endpoints of the MPLS TP LSP to
> understand the payload contents and we could have as payloads, for
> example, MPLS packets with their own label stack, IP packets, or
> ethernet PW packets which in turn contain, for example, MPLS packets or
> IP packets."
>
> So, I was optimizing for the MPLS and IP traffic, and carrying the other
> stuff in a PW.
>

John's proposal was reusing existing technology. I believe the
above proposal meets Ben's requirement:

"The requirement Andy/I have is for example for BT's network to carry a
link between two VZ routers such that that link appears identical to VZ's
routers as though VZ had run a cable across the floor directly between
them."

One way to realize the above requirement is for BT to provide VZ, MPLS-TP
LSP as the service interface. This service interface can carry MPLS or PWs
or IP as described by John above.

rahul



> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:11 PM
> >To: Drake, John E
> >Cc: Rahul Aggarwal; mpls-interop@ietf.org; Malis, Andrew G.
> >(Andy); Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >Drake, John E wrote:
> >> Stewart,
> >>
> >> If the client and server agree to share the same stack, there is no
> >> reason that this would not work.  As an existence proof, we
> >have MPLS
> >> and non-MPLS traffic sharing links today.
> >>
> >John
> >
> >Yes - today there is a PID in the datalink that is used to
> >discriminate between the MPLS encapsulated data, and the IP
> >control and OAM traffic. If it's ISIS we need to get the
> >various hellos, LSPs etc over as well. Then we might have CDP etc etc.
> >
> >So to connect the two LSRs together over an MPLS-TP cloud you
> >need some multiplexing technique.
> >
> >Today this multiplexing is achieved using a data link with a
> >PID carried over a physical link or a virtual physical link (PW).
> >
> >How are you proposing to carry the additional packet types
> >over an MPLS-TP network with a path that is only constructed
> >to carry MPLS packets?
> >
> >Stewart
> >
> >
>
>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Drake, John E wrote:
> Stewart,
>
> This is an e-mail I sent Andy last month, and again on Monday:
>
> "Great.  So, it is up to the client endpoints of the MPLS TP LSP to
> understand the payload contents and we could have as payloads, for
> example, MPLS packets with their own label stack, IP packets, or
> ethernet PW packets which in turn contain, for example, MPLS packets or
> IP packets."
>
> So, I was optimizing for the MPLS and IP traffic, and carrying the other
> stuff in a PW.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John    
>
>   
John

What you seem to be saying is that the MPLS-TP (i.e. server to the MPLS 
client) PE
dissects the traffic into three classes (one of which is a PW) and sends 
them in
a bespoke encapsulation to the remote PE which then merges them.

Is that correct?

Stewart


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Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Rahul,

If you were to put a data analyzer on an Ethernet or PPP/PoS link
between two routers, you would see more going on than just IP, MPLS, and
PWs, all at the same layer, for example CLNP packets for IS-IS. One
could perhaps construct a pseudowire for stuff that's not IP or MPLS,
but that would either require a major change to the routers being
interconnected, or add a lot of complexity to the client interface on
MPLS-TP switches. 

As Ben stated, a fundamental requirement for MPLS-TP is to be a swap-in
replacement for TDM PPP/PoS, Ethernet, or just a cable across the floor
in order to interconnect IP/MPLS routers as currently shipped by the
entire router industry. A generic PW meets that requirement with a
minimum of complexity in the MPLS-TP switches, and no changes in the
client routers. It also adds the ability to do end-to-end OAM at the PW
layer between the endpoint client interfaces, and to utilize PW-PW
stitching between MPLS-TP domains if necessary. 

Here's an example, where R1 and R2 are all routers belonging to Provider
1 (P1), but only R1 can physically interconnect to P1's MPLS-TP
transport network, and R2 needs to utilize a second provider's MPLS-TP
transport network:


Physical interconnections:  R1 ----- P1 MPLS-TP domain ---- P2 MPLS-TP
domain ---- R2
PW layer:                            |<-----  Generic PW   





-----Original Message-----
From: Rahul Aggarwal [mailto:rahul@juniper.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:31 PM
To: Drake, John E
Cc: stbryant@cisco.com; mpls-interop@ietf.org; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy);
Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP


Hi John and Ben,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Drake, John E wrote:

> Stewart,
>
> This is an e-mail I sent Andy last month, and again on Monday:
>
> "Great.  So, it is up to the client endpoints of the MPLS TP LSP to
> understand the payload contents and we could have as payloads, for
> example, MPLS packets with their own label stack, IP packets, or
> ethernet PW packets which in turn contain, for example, MPLS packets
or
> IP packets."
>
> So, I was optimizing for the MPLS and IP traffic, and carrying the
other
> stuff in a PW.
>

John's proposal was reusing existing technology. I believe the
above proposal meets Ben's requirement:

"The requirement Andy/I have is for example for BT's network to carry a
link between two VZ routers such that that link appears identical to
VZ's
routers as though VZ had run a cable across the floor directly between
them."

One way to realize the above requirement is for BT to provide VZ,
MPLS-TP
LSP as the service interface. This service interface can carry MPLS or
PWs
or IP as described by John above.

rahul



> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:11 PM
> >To: Drake, John E
> >Cc: Rahul Aggarwal; mpls-interop@ietf.org; Malis, Andrew G.
> >(Andy); Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >Drake, John E wrote:
> >> Stewart,
> >>
> >> If the client and server agree to share the same stack, there is no
> >> reason that this would not work.  As an existence proof, we
> >have MPLS
> >> and non-MPLS traffic sharing links today.
> >>
> >John
> >
> >Yes - today there is a PID in the datalink that is used to
> >discriminate between the MPLS encapsulated data, and the IP
> >control and OAM traffic. If it's ISIS we need to get the
> >various hellos, LSPs etc over as well. Then we might have CDP etc
etc.
> >
> >So to connect the two LSRs together over an MPLS-TP cloud you
> >need some multiplexing technique.
> >
> >Today this multiplexing is achieved using a data link with a
> >PID carried over a physical link or a virtual physical link (PW).
> >
> >How are you proposing to carry the additional packet types
> >over an MPLS-TP network with a path that is only constructed
> >to carry MPLS packets?
> >
> >Stewart
> >
> >
>
>
_______________________________________________
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From: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
To: "Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>, "Rahul Aggarwal" <rahul@juniper.net>, "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Whoops, this got sent too soon , let me finish it ....

Rahul,

If you were to put a data analyzer on an Ethernet or PPP/PoS link
between two routers, you would see more going on than just IP, MPLS, and
PWs, all at the same layer, for example CLNP packets for IS-IS. One
could perhaps construct a pseudowire for stuff that's not IP or MPLS,
but that would either require a major change to the routers being
interconnected, or add a lot of complexity to the client interface on
MPLS-TP switches. 

As Ben stated, a fundamental requirement for MPLS-TP is to be a swap-in
replacement for TDM PPP/PoS, Ethernet, or just a cable across the floor
in order to interconnect IP/MPLS routers as currently shipped by the
entire router industry. A generic PW meets that requirement with a
minimum of complexity in the MPLS-TP switches, and no changes in the
client routers. It also adds the ability to do end-to-end OAM at the PW
layer between the endpoint client interfaces, and to utilize PW-PW
stitching between MPLS-TP domains if necessary. 

Here's an example, where R1 and R2 are both routers belonging to
Provider 1 (P1), but only R1 can physically interconnect to P1's MPLS-TP
transport network, and R2 needs to utilize a second provider's MPLS-TP
transport network:


Physical interconnections:  R1 ----- P1 MPLS-TP domain ---- P2 MPLS-TP
domain ---- R2
PW layer:                            |<-----  Stitched generic PW
---------->|
MPLS-TP layer:                       |<----LSP------->|
|<----LSP------->|

Cheers,
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Rahul Aggarwal [mailto:rahul@juniper.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:31 PM
To: Drake, John E
Cc: stbryant@cisco.com; mpls-interop@ietf.org; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy);
Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP


Hi John and Ben,

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Drake, John E wrote:

> Stewart,
>
> This is an e-mail I sent Andy last month, and again on Monday:
>
> "Great.  So, it is up to the client endpoints of the MPLS TP LSP to
> understand the payload contents and we could have as payloads, for
> example, MPLS packets with their own label stack, IP packets, or
> ethernet PW packets which in turn contain, for example, MPLS packets
or
> IP packets."
>
> So, I was optimizing for the MPLS and IP traffic, and carrying the
other
> stuff in a PW.
>

John's proposal was reusing existing technology. I believe the
above proposal meets Ben's requirement:

"The requirement Andy/I have is for example for BT's network to carry a
link between two VZ routers such that that link appears identical to
VZ's
routers as though VZ had run a cable across the floor directly between
them."

One way to realize the above requirement is for BT to provide VZ,
MPLS-TP
LSP as the service interface. This service interface can carry MPLS or
PWs
or IP as described by John above.

rahul



> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:11 PM
> >To: Drake, John E
> >Cc: Rahul Aggarwal; mpls-interop@ietf.org; Malis, Andrew G.
> >(Andy); Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> >Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> >
> >Drake, John E wrote:
> >> Stewart,
> >>
> >> If the client and server agree to share the same stack, there is no
> >> reason that this would not work.  As an existence proof, we
> >have MPLS
> >> and non-MPLS traffic sharing links today.
> >>
> >John
> >
> >Yes - today there is a PID in the datalink that is used to
> >discriminate between the MPLS encapsulated data, and the IP
> >control and OAM traffic. If it's ISIS we need to get the
> >various hellos, LSPs etc over as well. Then we might have CDP etc
etc.
> >
> >So to connect the two LSRs together over an MPLS-TP cloud you
> >need some multiplexing technique.
> >
> >Today this multiplexing is achieved using a data link with a
> >PID carried over a physical link or a virtual physical link (PW).
> >
> >How are you proposing to carry the additional packet types
> >over an MPLS-TP network with a path that is only constructed
> >to carry MPLS packets?
> >
> >Stewart
> >
> >
>
>
_______________________________________________
Mpls-interop mailing list
Mpls-interop@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop

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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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All,

I'm a little bit lost on what is discussed here; what is possible,
what is practical, what we want to do or what is desirable.

Today we can run ip, mpls and pws over mpls, consequently we
can (unless we do something to stop it) run ip, mpls and pws
over mpls-tp

We can also run mpls-tp over mpls.

As a matter of fact it is also possible to run mpls and mpls-tp
over ip, at least for the mpls case this has turned to be very
practical time and again.

When runing mpls-tp over mpls or mpls over mpls-tp, we have
three options.

- We can use a single label stack (just one bos)
- We can use the bos as a de-limiter (is that a word?), the bos is
   once for mpls-tp and once for mpls.
- We can use a pw

For me this is mostly a deployment or operational choice.

If we want to run mpls and ip in a pw, this needs to be defined
in the pwe3 wg, but other than that I don't see anything that
we need to do.

/Loa


Malis, Andrew G. (Andy) wrote:
> Whoops, this got sent too soon , let me finish it ....
> 
> Rahul,
> 
> If you were to put a data analyzer on an Ethernet or PPP/PoS link
> between two routers, you would see more going on than just IP, MPLS, and
> PWs, all at the same layer, for example CLNP packets for IS-IS. One
> could perhaps construct a pseudowire for stuff that's not IP or MPLS,
> but that would either require a major change to the routers being
> interconnected, or add a lot of complexity to the client interface on
> MPLS-TP switches. 
> 
> As Ben stated, a fundamental requirement for MPLS-TP is to be a swap-in
> replacement for TDM PPP/PoS, Ethernet, or just a cable across the floor
> in order to interconnect IP/MPLS routers as currently shipped by the
> entire router industry. A generic PW meets that requirement with a
> minimum of complexity in the MPLS-TP switches, and no changes in the
> client routers. It also adds the ability to do end-to-end OAM at the PW
> layer between the endpoint client interfaces, and to utilize PW-PW
> stitching between MPLS-TP domains if necessary. 
> 
> Here's an example, where R1 and R2 are both routers belonging to
> Provider 1 (P1), but only R1 can physically interconnect to P1's MPLS-TP
> transport network, and R2 needs to utilize a second provider's MPLS-TP
> transport network:
> 
> 
> Physical interconnections:  R1 ----- P1 MPLS-TP domain ---- P2 MPLS-TP
> domain ---- R2
> PW layer:                            |<-----  Stitched generic PW
> ---------->|
> MPLS-TP layer:                       |<----LSP------->|
> |<----LSP------->|
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rahul Aggarwal [mailto:rahul@juniper.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:31 PM
> To: Drake, John E
> Cc: stbryant@cisco.com; mpls-interop@ietf.org; Malis, Andrew G. (Andy);
> Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
> Subject: RE: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
> 
> 
> Hi John and Ben,
> 
> On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Drake, John E wrote:
> 
>> Stewart,
>>
>> This is an e-mail I sent Andy last month, and again on Monday:
>>
>> "Great.  So, it is up to the client endpoints of the MPLS TP LSP to
>> understand the payload contents and we could have as payloads, for
>> example, MPLS packets with their own label stack, IP packets, or
>> ethernet PW packets which in turn contain, for example, MPLS packets
> or
>> IP packets."
>>
>> So, I was optimizing for the MPLS and IP traffic, and carrying the
> other
>> stuff in a PW.
>>
> 
> John's proposal was reusing existing technology. I believe the
> above proposal meets Ben's requirement:
> 
> "The requirement Andy/I have is for example for BT's network to carry a
> link between two VZ routers such that that link appears identical to
> VZ's
> routers as though VZ had run a cable across the floor directly between
> them."
> 
> One way to realize the above requirement is for BT to provide VZ,
> MPLS-TP
> LSP as the service interface. This service interface can carry MPLS or
> PWs
> or IP as described by John above.
> 
> rahul
> 
> 
> 
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:11 PM
>>> To: Drake, John E
>>> Cc: Rahul Aggarwal; mpls-interop@ietf.org; Malis, Andrew G.
>>> (Andy); Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>>>
>>> Drake, John E wrote:
>>>> Stewart,
>>>>
>>>> If the client and server agree to share the same stack, there is no
>>>> reason that this would not work.  As an existence proof, we
>>> have MPLS
>>>> and non-MPLS traffic sharing links today.
>>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> Yes - today there is a PID in the datalink that is used to
>>> discriminate between the MPLS encapsulated data, and the IP
>>> control and OAM traffic. If it's ISIS we need to get the
>>> various hellos, LSPs etc over as well. Then we might have CDP etc
> etc.
>>> So to connect the two LSRs together over an MPLS-TP cloud you
>>> need some multiplexing technique.
>>>
>>> Today this multiplexing is achieved using a data link with a
>>> PID carried over a physical link or a virtual physical link (PW).
>>>
>>> How are you proposing to carry the additional packet types
>>> over an MPLS-TP network with a path that is only constructed
>>> to carry MPLS packets?
>>>
>>> Stewart
>>>
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Mpls-interop mailing list
> Mpls-interop@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-interop

-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu


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Thread-Topic: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
Thread-Index: AcmB5nqogmDoVPfwRl6ude8rnPsmWQARwx4g
References: <C5A4ACD9.D64B%swallow@cisco.com> <20090127180128.T76169@sapphire.juniper.net> <49806CA9.2040601@cisco.com> <51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016B7615@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com> <4980F410.2080508@cisco.com> <51661468CBD1354294533DA79E85955A016B78C2@XCH-SW-5V2.sw.nos.boeing.com> <49816018.4050603@cisco.com>
From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls-interop@ietf.org, "Weingarten, Yaacov \(NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon\)" <yaacov.weingarten@nsn.com>, neil.2.harrison@bt.com
Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
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Stewart,

No, the three types of packets are all multiplexed together across the
service interface.

I think there would need to be an indication across the service
interface that a given packet is an MPLS packet, so that the reserved
label could be set at the bottom of the server stack, since you and
George won't let the first nibble of the packet be used for this.

Thanks,

John 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com] 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:52 PM
>To: Drake, John E
>Cc: Rahul Aggarwal; mpls-interop@ietf.org; Malis, Andrew G. 
>(Andy); Weingarten, Yaacov (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
>Subject: Re: [Mpls-interop] MPLS over MPLS-TP
>
>Drake, John E wrote:
>> Stewart,
>>
>> This is an e-mail I sent Andy last month, and again on Monday:
>>
>> "Great.  So, it is up to the client endpoints of the MPLS TP LSP to 
>> understand the payload contents and we could have as payloads, for 
>> example, MPLS packets with their own label stack, IP packets, or 
>> ethernet PW packets which in turn contain, for example, MPLS packets 
>> or IP packets."
>>
>> So, I was optimizing for the MPLS and IP traffic, and carrying the 
>> other stuff in a PW.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John    
>>
>>   
>John
>
>What you seem to be saying is that the MPLS-TP (i.e. server to the MPLS
>client) PE
>dissects the traffic into three classes (one of which is a PW) 
>and sends them in a bespoke encapsulation to the remote PE 
>which then merges them.
>
>Is that correct?
>
>Stewart
>
>
>
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Dear Mr. Maeda, Mr. Abbas, Mr. van Helvoort, Mr. Betts and Mr. Lam

Please find a liaison "Response to SG15 comments on MPLS-TP
requirements" in response to your liaison dated December 25, 2008
titled =93Comments on MPLS-TP working group drafts=94.

Loa Andersson
Chair of the MEAD Team.

-- =



Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu


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now with the attachment

/Loa

Loa Andersson wrote:
> Dear Mr. Maeda, Mr. Abbas, Mr. van Helvoort, Mr. Betts and Mr. Lam
> 
> Please find a liaison "Response to SG15 comments on MPLS-TP
> requirements" in response to your liaison dated December 25, 2008
> titled “Comments on MPLS-TP working group drafts”.
> 
> Loa Andersson
> Chair of the MEAD Team.
> 

-- 


Loa Andersson

Sr Strategy and Standards Manager
Ericsson ///                          phone:  +46 8 632 77 14

                                       email:  loa.andersson@ericsson.com
                                               loa.andersson@redback.com
                                               loa@pi.nu



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