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Mark Townsley" , Jari Arkko , David Ward Subject: [mpls] consensus call on the t-mpls design team issues list X-BeenThere: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Working Groups, Following the last IETF the IAB technical ad-hoc committee on T-MPLS reviewed the text of ITU-T documents G.8113 and G.8114, and generated an issues list, which we sent directly to the authors of the ITU-T documents for their consideration. There has been some discussion with the authors on these issues. In preparation for the ITU-T SG13 Plenary in Seoul which begins next week, we need to formally liaise this issues list to the ITU-T so that it exists as a document that can be discussed at the meeting. We note that there have been a number of responses by the ITU-T authors, but we feel that it is appropriate to publish the full list to provide the necessary context at the SG13 plenary. G.8114 proposes two applications for label 14, an endpoint OAM alert, a P router OAM alert (i.e. requires the P router to take special action on packets with label 14 in the stack), and we have also see proposal to further extend use of label 14 to provide a messaging channel for control plan traffic. In addition to the detailed review of G.8113 and G.8114, the IETF therefore has to question whether the ITU-T approach of using a single reserved label (or indeed any reserved label) is the right approach for the applications that they have in mind, and we believe that this should be added to the issues list as an over-riding concern. The document we sent to the ITU authors was in word format (their standard) and time does not permit us to convert this to ASCII. We therefore make the document available to the IETF in word and pdf format. The documents are available at: http://www.tla-group.com/~loa/IETF-TMPLS-Issues-6.doc and http://www.tla-group.com/~loa/IETF-TMPLS-Issues-6.pdf In order to send this as a liaison we need the consensus of the MPLS and PWE3 WGs. In view of the limited time available we request comments by Friday (Jan 12), so that we can send the liaison before the SG13 meeting next week. 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Mark Townsley" , Stewart Bryant Subject: [mpls] RE: [PWE3] consensus call on the t-mpls design team issues list X-BeenThere: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Loa and all, Please count my YES (for both WGs) in the "consensus count" (is there any such thing?). Regards, Sasha Vainshtein -----Original Message----- From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@pi.se]=20 Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 1:39 PM To: mpls@ietf.org; pwe3; Stewart Bryant; George Swallow; Danny McPherson Cc: W. Mark Townsley; David Ward Subject: [PWE3] consensus call on the t-mpls design team issues list Working Groups, Following the last IETF the IAB technical ad-hoc committee on T-MPLS reviewed the text of ITU-T documents G.8113 and G.8114, and generated an issues list, which we sent directly to the authors of the ITU-T documents for their consideration. There has been some discussion with the authors on these issues. In preparation for the ITU-T SG13 Plenary in Seoul which begins next week, we need to formally liaise this issues list to the ITU-T so that it exists as a document that can be discussed at the meeting. We note that there have been a number of responses by the ITU-T authors, but we feel that it is appropriate to publish the full list to provide the necessary context at the SG13 plenary. G.8114 proposes two applications for label 14, an endpoint OAM alert, a P router OAM alert (i.e. requires the P router to take special action on packets with label 14 in the stack), and we have also see proposal to further extend use of label 14 to provide a messaging channel for control plan traffic. In addition to the detailed review of G.8113 and G.8114, the IETF therefore has to question whether the ITU-T approach of using a single reserved label (or indeed any reserved label) is the right approach for the applications that they have in mind, and we believe that this should be added to the issues list as an over-riding concern. The document we sent to the ITU authors was in word format (their standard) and time does not permit us to convert this to ASCII. We therefore make the document available to the IETF in word and pdf format. The documents are available at: http://www.tla-group.com/~loa/IETF-TMPLS-Issues-6.doc and http://www.tla-group.com/~loa/IETF-TMPLS-Issues-6.pdf In order to send this as a liaison we need the consensus of the MPLS and PWE3 WGs. In view of the limited time available we request comments by Friday (Jan 12), so that we can send the liaison before the SG13 meeting next week. Regards Stewart/Loa --=20 Loa Andersson Principal Networking Architect Acreo AB phone: +46 8 632 77 14 Isafjordsgatan 22 mobile: +46 739 81 21 64 Kista, Sweden email: loa.andersson@acreo.se loa@pi.se _______________________________________________ pwe3 mailing list pwe3@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3 _______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls From mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jan 07 11:47:25 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBv7k-000790-7d; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:46:52 -0500 Received: from mpls by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBv7i-00078Z-OE for mpls-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:46:50 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBv7i-00078M-EM for mpls@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:46:50 -0500 Received: from weird-brew.cisco.com ([144.254.15.118] helo=av-tac-bru.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBv7h-00011m-NH for mpls@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:46:50 -0500 X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id m07Gklw14887; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:46:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.61.255.125] (ams-stealth-iwijnand-5.cisco.com [10.61.255.125]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id m07GkkB14868; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:46:47 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <01e601c84efc$a0e70940$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe> References: <01e601c84efc$a0e70940$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <27946650-E122-4876-94B6-02CCC63325C6@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IJsbrand Wijnands Subject: Re: [mpls] Nit in draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-p2mp-03 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:46:46 +0100 To: Adrian Farrel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Cc: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thanks Adrian, we'll address it in the next revision. Ice. On 04 Jan 2008, at 19:06, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi, > > You have... > > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |P2MP Type (TBD)| Address Family | Address Length| > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Root Node Address | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Opaque Length | Opaque Value ... | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ + > ~ ~ > | | > | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > This gives the impression that only four octets are allowed for the > Root Node Address. > Can you change it to... > > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |P2MP Type (TBD)| Address Family | Address Length| > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > ~ Root Node Address ~ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Opaque Length | Opaque Value ... | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ + > ~ ~ > | | > | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > Thanks, > Adrian > > > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls _______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls From mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jan 07 11:52:34 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBvCk-0007QH-Na; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:52:02 -0500 Received: from mpls by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBvCj-0007PD-Kh for mpls-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:52:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBvCj-0007Om-AD; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:52:01 -0500 Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBvCi-0001JG-Tm; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:52:01 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.24,254,1196636400"; d="scan'208";a="2355335" Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Jan 2008 17:52:00 +0100 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m07Gq0H6015916; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:52:00 +0100 Received: from stewart-bryants-computer.local (ams3-vpn-dhcp1143.cisco.com [10.61.68.119]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m07GprBF009921; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:51:53 GMT Message-ID: <478258A8.4080204@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:51:52 +0000 From: Stewart Bryant User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pwe3 , mpls@ietf.org, t-mpls-dt@testbed.se Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1288; t=1199724720; x=1200588720; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=stbryant@cisco.com; z=From:=20Stewart=20Bryant=20 |Subject:=20ITU-T=20reply=20to=20PWE3/MPLS=20liaison=20requ esting=20delay=20in=20publishing=20G.8113/4 |Sender:=20; bh=ftvunsLrxgeTWm7x0v74DpTYeYQ2YuAAdMiyfITXtyM=; b=OuUjPT1qOu7ewHsZTXh6Vz8AtMRK1dzB6W+ZKonOSQmvYEuHriGUZoPwZ9 eHliwTDu3fVx81ifaKpjzFswYUbYwDSHwVi+A7b25Y5UT03YrglDXpMLfz0X 8ica/RYFeb; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=stbryant@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: Subject: [mpls] ITU-T reply to PWE3/MPLS liaison requesting delay in publishing G.8113/4 X-BeenThere: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: stbryant@cisco.com List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org We received the following response from Brian Moore re our liaison recommending the delay of publication of G.8113/4 https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file503.txt CC: "Loa Andersson" , "Stewart Bryant" , "Danny McPherson" , "George Swallow $swallow$" , "Ross Callon" , "David Ward" , "Mark Townsley" , "Jari Arkko" , "Russ Housley" , "Olaf M. Kolkman" , Subject: Re: Recommendation to delay approval of Y.1372/G.8113 and Y.1373/G.8114 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:05:42 -0000 To: , , , From: "Brian Moore" Dear Stewart, I will issue this as an Incoming Liaison for the Study Group 13 meeting in January. The decision on the Recommendations will be taken in the meeting by the ITU-T sector members and member states based upon consideration of the input documents, including liaison statements. Regards, Brian. This text is on the ietf liaison page at https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file504.txt _______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls From mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jan 07 11:58:58 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBvIr-0000go-PG; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:58:21 -0500 Received: from mpls by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBvIp-0000gf-Fj for mpls-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:58:19 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBvIp-0000gW-2f for mpls@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:58:19 -0500 Received: from p-mail1.rd.francetelecom.com ([195.101.245.15]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBvIn-00049K-5A for mpls@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:58:18 -0500 Received: from ftrdmel3.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.155]) by ftrdsmtp1.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:57:51 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [mpls] draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-interarea-01.txt to WG last call Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:57:58 +0100 Message-ID: <5A0FF108221C7C4E85738678804B567C05A60AE5@ftrdmel3> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [mpls] draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-interarea-01.txt to WG last call Thread-Index: AchBwsOIh6AgtB/kTs67pODUvesbpwAijoSAAD3iubABVZtFsAIf0trg References: <20071218220910.1C6F250BC41@swallow-mini-mac.cisco.com><00a301c84250$1ae17820$76463aa6@mcilink.com><5A0FF108221C7C4E85738678804B567C059BAD15@ftrdmel3> <012701c848a2$0939e4b0$99b9fea9@mcilink.com> From: "DECRAENE Bruno RD-CORE-ISS" To: "Dave McDysan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jan 2008 16:57:51.0915 (UTC) FILETIME=[70A3EFB0:01C8514E] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2f0065339d489fe5a2873ea9ad776d1a Cc: mpls@ietf.org X-BeenThere: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi Dave, [...] > > > I believe that some clarification needs to be added to the draft regarding > > > the conditions under which fault notification operates. > > > Some specific > > > comments are as follows: > > > > > > - Add a statement to section 4, problem statement, > > > indicating that LDP label > > > withdrawal can be used to advertise the state of a PE in a remote, > > > summarized area/level, replacing the function done by the IGP in a flat > > > domain > > > > > > The section "7.2. Impact on routing convergence time" already > > has a discussion on this subject and states that "In case of > > failure of the egress LER node, given that the IGP > > aggregates IP route on ABRs, the routing convergence behavior is > > changed compared to [LDP]. As the IGP does not carries specifics > > prefixes outside of the egress area, the IGP will not > > propagate the > > notification of node failure outside of the area and therefore > > notification will rely on LDP. The FEC(s) of the egress > > LER will be > > removed in an ordered way through the end-to-end > > propagation of the > > LDP withdraw message." > > > > > > Is your comment is that the existing text > > - is not clear enough? In this case we can indeed rephrasing it) > > - or is not at the right place (section 4 vs section 7.2)? In > > this case, we can further discuss this but I would rather not > > add this in the section 4 which is about the problem statement) > > >=20 > As I understand the intent of the draft based upon our discussion, part of > the problem to be solved is in fact fault detection and notification and > therefore at least a summary statement in section 4 is appropriate (which > could point to section 7.2 for more detail). Also, the subject of section 7 > is "Caveats for Deployment," which is not the best place to state what > functions the document is intended to describe. As I understand your point, you're rather ok with the text in the draft and your concern is that discussion on PE failure notification is an important point and therefore should be placed higher in the document. First, I'd like to stress that the draft does not introduce new LDP mechanism to advertise the failure of the remote PE.=20 Now, regarding the section to hold that discussion, - section 4 introduce the problem statement so I don't think this is the best place. Especially this the protocol extension is not yet specified and I don't think this is something which can be discussed before specifying the solution. - section 5 describe the protocol extension. Since this draft does not introduce new LDP mechanism on this point, it does seem the best place to hold the discussion. - section 6 describe use case for this extension. This is clearly not the good place. However, If the is a strong need the push that discussion before in the draft, I suppose we could swap section 6 (example of use) and section 7 (Caveats for deployment). Yet I still think the current order is more logical: 1) Would you need it? 2) If yes, before using it, you should consider theses caveats =20 - section 7 describe what service provider should consider before deploying such extension. Being a service provider, in my mind this is an important section which we are not trying to hide at the end of the doc. I suppose we also could change the title of this section, to make it more "must read", but with the current wording of the draft, again as service provider, this is definitely not a section I would skipped. > > > - Section 5: > > > Suggest adding a statement that label withdrawal occurs in the order from > > > the routers adjacent to the failed egress node toward the upstream nodes for > > > the purpose of fault detection. > > > > Again, the section "7.2. Impact on routing convergence time" > > already has a discussion on this subject and states that "In > > case of failure of the egress LER node [..]. The FEC(s) of > > the egress LER will be removed in an ordered way through the > > end-to-end propagation of the LDP withdraw message." > > > > Is this text fine for you or would you like to add further > > precisions? >=20 > As the draft currently reads, normative statements regarding operation of > the protocol cover only signaling for label distribution. As I commented in > Vancouver, the current text of the draft does not have normative text > covering the cases of label withdrawal and how that could be used by other > protocols. The subject of section 7 is "Caveats for Deployment," which does > not appear to be the best place in the outluine of the draft to state > protocol requirements. Ok, thanks for your clarification. The draft does not introduce new LDP mechanism to advertise the failure of the remote PE. As per RFC 3036/5036, LDP already withdraw the FEC which means the LSP is not useable anymore.=20 Given there is no new mechanism defines, I don't see why we would need to define new actions. However, I see your point that some existing implementations may not use this message as an indication of the failure of the remote LER/PE but only consider the removing of the /32 in the IGP. In this case, the implementation would have to change to (also) take into account LDP events. Regarding adding or not this point in the draft, the question is "is this an implementation issue or a protocol issue (which should be specified in an IETF document)?". Currently, AFAIK, such interactions between protocols (eg how should BGP react when LDP withdraw a FEC/label) is not fully specified in a RFC (either BGP ones or LDP ones). So I guess that this is left to implementation.=20 IMO, this is a subject beyond this draft and should be applicable regardless of the longest match vs exact match question. On this point, you can also refer to my e-mail on this MPLS list (2007/12/19) which also discus this point and relate the "mirror" discussion in the IDR WG. > > > I think there are some other assumptions that are necessary for LDP to > > > support egress PE fault notification, as follows: > > > > > > If multiple paths from some ingress node to the egress node > > > exist with the > > > same cumulative metric (or within an implementation > > > specific threshold that=20 > > > considers them equal), then that ingress node will receive multiple label > > > advertisements to the egress node. > > > > Yes and this may also be true for transit LSR anywhere in the > > path. (ie not only for the ingress node) >=20 > Yes, the ingress in general will have one or more transit nodes between > itself and the egress. >=20 > > > > > If the ingress node uses liberal label retention, then it must wait for all > > > such labels to be withdrawn before declaring the egress PE down. If this is > > > not done, then a link failure along one of the equal cost IGP paths could > > > cause the ingress PE to falsely declare the egress PE down. > > > > I think this is independent of the label Retention Mode > > (which is an issue in case of IGP rerouting to a new path > > toward the same PE (FEC) ie new next-hop. Cf section > > 2.6.2.1. of RFC 5036) > > > > Your right but I don't see what's new with the draft for an > > implementation using ordered mode. For an implementation > > using independent mode, you're right there is a change but > > the change is to implement ordered mode for the longest match > > FEC (the same ordered mode as specified in RFC 5036.) > > >=20 > I suggest that the last paragraph at the end of section 4 with the three > bulleted list items could be a good place to make part of the above > clarification. To me, the current text implies a single RIB prefix of a > certain length (i.e., better match) and does not cover the case where there > may be multiple equally best matching RIB prefixes. (I guessed you meant section 5 rather than 4) This paragraph describes what's new compared to RFC 5036 due to the use of a longest match in the label mapping procedure. Namely these 2 points: - when a new prefix appears in the RIB, it could be a new better match for some FECs - when a prefix disappears in the RIB, another one could still be found as a (less) good match. Regarding your point (load-balancing between LSRs), the draft brings nothing new compared to RFC 5036 so I don't see the need to specify something which could mislead readers in believing that something ahs changed.=20 BTW, in case of load-balancing, I would still rather say "one RIB prefix" when this prefix has 2 (or more) LSR has next-hop. =20 > I think there may be other issues with independent node depending upon the > order of label withdrawals received by an ingress mode. Actually the FEC selected using this longest match procedure can only be propagated and dealt with using ordered mode. These FEC are not propagated with independent more and therefore the LSP is not setup.=20 > I can see how fault > detection and notification works best using ordered mode, and can envision > other race conditions with independent mode. I suggest that the wg consider > adding text to indicate that ordered mode is preferred, as you state above. Currently the draft states that "FECs selected by this "Longest Match" label mapping procedure will be distributed in an ordered way". Would you like that we add "using LDP ordered mode as defined in [LDP]" ? =20 > Also, I think the references to 3036 in the draft need to be replaced by > 5036. You're right but this is already done in the current version of the draft (draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-interarea-01.txt). If you used a different version of the draft for your comments, this may explain that we faced differences regarding sections numbers. =20 > > > There are also cases where two links along equal cost IGP > > > paths could fail > > > at nearly the same time, which could cause all labels to an FEC to be > > > withdrawn, and reestablshed shortly thereafter. > > > > The example is not fully clear to me. Do you mean > > - the _link_ is reestablished? or the FEC?. > I meant the link fails, the LDP session fails, the label is withdrawn. Once > the link is reestablished, the LDP session would become active and then the > FEC would be bound again. >=20 >=20 > > - is the network has a backup path (with higher IGP metric) > > to the PE or not? ie is the routing behavior is an IGP > > rerouting toward the same remote PE or do we lose connection > > to the PE. >=20 > I stated "two links along equal cost IGP paths." A clarification would be > that these are "separate equal cost IGP paths" >=20 > > > > > This behavior will differ > > > from an IGP hello type protocol node failure detection. > > > Therefore, an > > > implementation MAY implement a fault detection timer after receiving > > > withdraw(s) for all prefixes before declaring the egress PE to be > > down. > > > > I don't think any more thing is required but it would help me > > if you could elaborate on your specific example (especially > > providing more precision on the topology and the failures events. >=20 > Below is a simple example for discussion: >=20 >=20 > /A---B\ > E I > \C---D/ >=20 > All hops have the same IGP metric. Egress (E) node and Ingress(I) node are > in stub areas and A,B,C, and D are in the backbone area (using OSPF > terminology). E distributes a label for its own FEX to A and C, which in > turn distribute a label to B and D. B and D use the longest prefix match > signaling specified in the draft, and both distribute the label binding for > E's FEC to the Ingress (I). Thanks for clarifying the example. In your example, the backbone area does not seem connected so it's a big particular to discus this topology. (Is this on purpose or did you omit some links which didn't seem relevant to your point?) > Now the link between E and A fails. A will issue a label withdraw to B, > which in turn will issue a label withdraw to I. However, I still has a RIB > prefix (of the same length and IGP metric) remaining to E (see my comment > and proposed clarification to section 5 above). In your example, the behavior with the longest match procedure would be: 1) before the failure. RIB: 10/8 - Next hop B - Next hop C In LDP, the LER I: - received a label mapping from B, for the FEC 10.0.0.1/32, with the label LB.=20 - according to the draft (section 5 "Label Mapping Procedure"), it accepts the FEC since "its routing table contains an entry (10/8) that matches the FEC Element (10.0.0.1/32) and the advertising LSR (B) is a next hop to reach the FEC.=20 Idem from C (- received a label mapping from C, for the FEC 10.0.0.1/32, with the label LC.=20 - according to the draft (section 5 "Label Mapping Procedure"), it accepts the FEC since "its routing table contains an entry (10/8) that matches the FEC Element (10.0.0.1/32) and the advertising LSR (C) is a next hop to reach the FEC.) 2) After the failure. RIB: 10/8 - Next hop B - Next hop C In LDP, the LER I received a label withdraw from B, for the FEC 10.0.0.1/32, according to RFC 5036 "When an LSR receives a Label Withdraw message for a FEC from an LDP peer, it responds with a Label Release message and it removes the label from any forwarding/switching use. If Ordered Control is in use, the LSR sends a Label Withdraw message to each LDP peer to which it had previously sent a label mapping for the FEC." In short, LSR I remove the entry from its forwarding table. > > > Furthermore, If the intermediate nodes between the ingress > > > and egress do not > > > all implement liberal label retention, then there may be some delay in > > > waiting for a periodically readvertised label or having to request a label > > > for a particular FEC. > > > > In case of rerouting on a new path, you're right, but the > > draft brings nothing new. Again, you can refer to section > > 2.6.2.1. of RFC 5036 >=20 > I believe that this is an important deployment caveat that should be added > to the draft. In other words, liberal label retention mode may achieve much > faster convergence than conservative label retention mode. Yes, but there is no change compared to RFC 5036. I don't see the point of copy/pasting text from RFC 5036 which is not change by the draft. This may lead to confusion as to whether or not there is a change. =20 > > > Finally, I suggest that a sentence be added stating that the LDP label > > > withgdrawal, or other methods that could be defined by the IETF for use in > > > egress PE fault detection can be selected at the ingress node as a local > > > implementation decision. > > > > You're right, in addition to the PE fault detection mechanism > > provided by this draft, an ingress PE could, as a local > > implementation decision, use additional methods to detect PE > > failure. Eg BFD. But this is already a true statement with > > RFC 5036 so I think this is largely independent of this draft. >=20 > I think this goes back to whether part of the problem the draft is trying to > solve is fault detection and notification. =20 Indeed, this goes back to this. The draft is solving the establishment of MPLS LSP by LDP when IGP areas and IP aggregation are used between areas. This is done by using "longest match" rather than "exact match". The notification of PE failure is provided using Label Withdraw message exactly as per RFC 5036. There is no new mechanism defined by this draft. > If so, I think that an operator > being able to disable and set timers for this LDP signaling derived fault > detection and notification are important requirements. >=20 > Aslo, I don't believe that BFD is part of 5036. >=20 > > > > > In my opinion, the above clarifications could be added during last > > call > > > comment resolution. > > > > OK, thanks. > > > > I'd be happy to further clarify these comments with you, > > either on the MPLS mailing list or privately, and if needed, > > to integrate the resulting required modifications in the draft. > > >=20 > Let's have the discussion on the list so that others can comment as they > deem appropriate. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Dave >=20 > > Regards, > > Bruno > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: George Swallow [mailto:swallow@cisco.com] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:09 PM > > > > To: mpls@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [mpls] draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-interarea-01.txt to > > WG last call > > > > > > > > Please indicate whether you believe this draft is ready > > for MPLS WG > > > > last call. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > George & Loa > > > > > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > George Swallow Cisco Systems > > > > (978) 936-1398 > > > > 1414 Massachusetts Avenue > > > > Boxborough, MA 01719 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > mpls mailing list > > > > mpls@lists.ietf.org > > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > mpls mailing list > > > mpls@lists.ietf.org > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > > >=20 _______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls From mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jan 07 12:51:05 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBw77-0006Uf-5W; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:50:17 -0500 Received: from mpls by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JBw75-0006UI-TH for mpls-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:50:15 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBw75-0006U8-JS; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:50:15 -0500 Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBw73-00042z-3P; Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:50:15 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.24,254,1196636400"; d="scan'208";a="2360078" Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Jan 2008 18:50:12 +0100 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m07HoBgJ020969; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:50:11 +0100 Received: from stewart-bryants-computer.local (ams3-vpn-dhcp1143.cisco.com [10.61.68.119]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m07HoABF028650; Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:50:10 GMT Message-ID: <47826651.9000805@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 17:50:09 +0000 From: Stewart Bryant User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pwe3 , mpls@ietf.org, l2vpn@ietf.org, t-mpls-dt@testbed.se Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2952; t=1199728211; x=1200592211; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=stbryant@cisco.com; z=From:=20Stewart=20Bryant=20 |Subject:=20Liaison=20from=20ITU-T=20Q9/15=20on=20T-MPLS=20 ring=20protection. |Sender:=20; bh=6rU15ISx/A3KAd1kzIgmIVd/TcRjynVvECqFX9drQ7I=; b=kDnOHwRpLnmohXCIKQZjPxknkisNGt9IY7y6tbS66z+JrfGwWV+YMWB4zE fAQXiu1lNhc1hehrliNusL21AXuzCCUG2k5flRAYMi+qV46Gb7np/0lWpeOh 5KjAZNO5vf; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=stbryant@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Cc: Jean Philippe Vasseur Subject: [mpls] Liaison from ITU-T Q9/15 on T-MPLS ring protection. X-BeenThere: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: stbryant@cisco.com List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org We received a liasion from ITU-T Q9/15 on T-MPLS ring protection. https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/386/ Please can I have your views by 22 January so that we can respond to the liaison. Thanks Stewart My thoughts are as follows: This is clearly a new type of MPLS packet forwarding technology and as such comes under the purview of the MPLS Change Process (RFC 4929). It should therefore be pursued through the IETF Standards Process. It is regrettable that a new, specialist repair mechanism is proposed for this topology, when it is clear that the problem could be solved by the widely deployed repair mechanism based on nested MPLS encapsulation (so called MPLS-TE fast reroute). It is our understanding that ring protection requires signaling between the two sides of the failure before the repair can start and that this would seem to be therefore slower than the already deployed mechanism that allows the repairing system to autonomously invoke the repair. We are further concerned that unlike existing MPLS fast re-route mechanisms it is not possible to test the repair path without causing disruption to the operation of the ring. We are concerned that this mechanism will require two labels for every T-MPLS path through the network and hence does not scale as well as an encapsulation based protection. Then I have some detailed comments: In Section 7 Para 5 you say: Hold-off time: to avoid protection switching cascade in different network layers when a lower layer network protection mechanism is activated in conjunction with the T-MPLS layer protection scheme. Usage of hold-off timers allows the lower layer to restore working traffic before the T-MPLS layer initiates a protection action. Please could you explain how a ring "knows" its current level in the heirarchy in order to set the hold-off timer correctly and what impact this has on the 50ms requirement? In Section 7 para 8 you say: a) The switching protocol shall be able to accommodate as a minimum up to 127 nodes on a ring. It might be better to express this in terms of a reminder that the maximum number of hops that a T-MPLS packet can traverse - including any backtracking needed for repair is 255. In Section 18 Label assignment you say In the T-MPLS Shared Protection Ring no restrictions are applied to the labels allocation along the normal and protection connections (besides T-MPLS per platform and per interface label space requirements as described in appendix III/G.8110.1). However, at every node there must be a deterministic relation between the labels assigned for normal and protection connection in both West and East directions. 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http://vaioacer.com/ ------------DA6E44444B805C9-- From mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jan 10 05:18:42 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JCuTr-0002xI-OA; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:17:47 -0500 Received: from mpls by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JCuTq-0002xC-0Z for mpls-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:17:46 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JCuTp-0002x4-Mm for mpls@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:17:45 -0500 Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com ([62.128.201.249]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JCuTo-0003kf-VT for mpls@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:17:45 -0500 Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m0AAHQ9L012613; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:17:27 GMT Received: from your029b8cecfe (dsl-sp-81-140-15-32.in-addr.broadbandscope.com [81.140.15.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0AAHNsV012506; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:17:25 GMT Message-ID: <044f01c85371$fc0a4340$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe> From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Jean Philippe Vasseur'" References: <46F775D1.80608@pi.se> <026401c7fe92$dae37ad0$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe> Subject: Re: [mpls] working group last callfordraft-ietf-mpls-number-0-bw-te-lsps Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:17:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Cc: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Adrian Farrel List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, I have been very tardy, so none of my notes below should be considered blocking on my account, nor even a request for a change. You may want to consider them for any future revision. Cheers, Adrian >> Abstract >> s/carried onto/carried by/ >> s/referred to as unconstrained TE LSP/referred to as unconstrained TE >> LSPs/ === Section 2 s/Label Switched Path(s) (TE LSP)/Label Switched Paths (TE LSPs)/ s/assumption about/assumptions about/ s/(Label Switching Router)/(Label Switching Routers)/ === Section 2 Unconstrained TE LSPs that are configured and provisioned through a management system MAY not be included in the count that is reported. The use of "MAY not" is ambiguous. People will be unclear whether you actually mean "MAY NOT". I think you want... Unconstrained TE LSPs that are configured and provisioned through a management system MAY be omitted from the count that is reported. === >> Section 2 >> "Furthermore, the knowledge of the number of unconstrained TE LSPs >> signalled across each link can be used for other purposes (for >> example to evaluate the number of affected TE LSPs in case of a link >> failure)." >> Wouldn't this function be better if we knew the actual number of TE LSPs >> on a link rather than only the number of zero bandwidth TE LSPs? Since we >> don't propose an extension that simply counts the number of TE LSPs, >> perhaps it would be simpler to delete this paragraph. > JP> Well for the number of deployed networks with 0-bw TE LSPs used for > FRR > purposes, it might still be useful to know the number of 0-bw TE LSPs. Then you probably want... Furthermore, the knowledge of the number of unconstrained TE LSPs signalled across each link can be used for other purposes (for example to evaluate the number of affected unconstrained TE LSPs in case of a link failure). === Section 3 s/The Number of 0-bandwidth TE LSP(s) Sub-TLV is defined/The Unconstrained TE LSP Count Sub-TLV is defined/ === Section 3.2 s/If a second instance of the Number of 0-bandwidth TE LSP(s) sub-TLV is present/If a second instance of the Unconstrained TE LSP Count Sub-TLV is present/ === >> Section 6 >> Is finger really the right protocol to reference for ISIS security? Are you still *really* sure you want to reference RFC 1194? 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Mark Townsley'" , 'David Ward' Subject: [mpls] RE: [PWE3] consensus call on the t-mpls design team issues list X-BeenThere: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Loa, Stewart, See my comments in line marked with [ib] Italo > -----Original Message----- > From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@pi.se] > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 12:39 PM > To: mpls@ietf.org; pwe3; Stewart Bryant; George Swallow; > Danny McPherson > Cc: W. Mark Townsley; David Ward > Subject: [PWE3] consensus call on the t-mpls design team issues list > > Working Groups, > > Following the last IETF the IAB technical ad-hoc committee on T-MPLS > reviewed the text of ITU-T documents G.8113 and G.8114, and > generated an issues list, which we sent directly to the authors of > the ITU-T documents for their consideration. There has been some > discussion with the authors on these issues. > > In preparation for the ITU-T SG13 Plenary in Seoul which begins next > week, we need to formally liaise this issues list to the ITU-T so that > it exists as a document that can be discussed at the meeting. We note > that there have been a number of responses by the ITU-T authors, but > we feel that it is appropriate to publish the full list to provide > the necessary context at the SG13 plenary. > [ib] I think the LS should decouple the issues with G.8113 from those with G.8114 because G.8113 is addressing requirements while G.8114 is providing solutions. > G.8114 proposes two applications for label 14, an endpoint OAM > alert, a P router OAM alert (i.e. requires the P router to > take special > action on packets with label 14 in the stack), and we have also see > proposal to further extend use of label 14 to provide a messaging > channel for control plan traffic. In addition to the detailed > review of > G.8113 and G.8114, the IETF therefore has to question whether > the ITU-T approach of using a single reserved label (or indeed > any reserved label) is the right approach for the applications > that they have in mind, and we believe that this should be > added to the issues list as an over-riding concern. > [ib] I think that suggesting some potential alternatives would be beneficial, even if not fully elaborated. > The document we sent to the ITU authors was in word format (their > standard) and time does not permit us to convert this to ASCII. We > therefore make the document available to the IETF in word > and pdf format. > > The documents are available at: > > http://www.tla-group.com/~loa/IETF-TMPLS-Issues-6.doc > and > http://www.tla-group.com/~loa/IETF-TMPLS-Issues-6.pdf > > In order to send this as a liaison we need the consensus of the MPLS > and PWE3 WGs. In view of the limited time available we request > comments by Friday (Jan 12), so that we can send the liaison before > the SG13 meeting next week. > [ib] It would be helpful if inputs provided so far from ITU-T participants should also be considered; in particular, whether have already been addressed satisfactorily via proposed clarifications and/or solutions (and mentioning these). For your convenience, the output of the work effort to respond to IAB technical ad-hoc committee may be found at the following links: http://italobusi.altervista.org/T-MPLS_OAM/IETF_-_TMPLS_Answers-03.doc http://italobusi.altervista.org/T-MPLS_OAM/IETF_-_TMPLS_Answers-03.pdf http://italobusi.altervista.org/T-MPLS_OAM/IETF_-_y1372-03.doc http://italobusi.altervista.org/T-MPLS_OAM/IETF_-_y1372-03.pdf http://italobusi.altervista.org/T-MPLS_OAM/IETF_-_y1373-03.doc http://italobusi.altervista.org/T-MPLS_OAM/IETF_-_y1373-03.pdf http://italobusi.altervista.org/T-MPLS_OAM/y1711_vs_y1373.doc http://italobusi.altervista.org/T-MPLS_OAM/y1711_vs_y1373.pdf > Regards > > Stewart/Loa > > > > -- > Loa Andersson > > Principal Networking Architect > Acreo AB phone: +46 8 632 77 14 > Isafjordsgatan 22 mobile: +46 739 81 21 64 > Kista, Sweden email: loa.andersson@acreo.se > loa@pi.se > > > _______________________________________________ > pwe3 mailing list > pwe3@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3 > _______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls From akstcaaofficeonlinemnsdgs@aaofficeonline.com Fri Jan 11 06:27:38 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDI2z-00077D-SZ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:27:37 -0500 Received: from 17.60.broadband4.iol.cz ([85.71.60.17]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDI2y-0004gA-Ms; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:27:37 -0500 Received: from [85.71.60.17] by mail.aaofficeonline.com; Fri, 10 Jan 2008 12:36:01 +0100 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2008 12:36:01 +0100 From: "Cheri Mcclain" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.5) Business Reply-To: akstcaaofficeonlinemnsdgs@aaofficeonline.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <463533546.70888728154001@aaofficeonline.com> To: mpls-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: diagrammaticBomb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Bring it huge http://recuiset.com From mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jan 11 09:22:08 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDKle-0006xD-FY; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:21:54 -0500 Received: from mpls by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JDKeM-0002EW-M7 for mpls-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:14:22 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDKeL-0002E0-TE for mpls@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:14:22 -0500 Received: from smtp805.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.65]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDKeL-0008Bu-3p for mpls@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:14:21 -0500 Received: (qmail 35720 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 14:14:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO D6H69Q1J) (brianmoore929@btinternet.com@86.152.182.210 with login) by smtp805.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2008 14:14:19 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: MAT6basVM1nqkBEkeTCRF3NguvJX4P37Qhp97GqzAyjlRDUNQUvSrQ2wQiZDwS1YNiM.N9mhyzy0mVrKSq5jsE3WPRNvdGsaicpXLOOVQxMWBTvq Message-ID: <011501c8545c$38ef2420$6401a8c0@D6H69Q1J> From: "Brian Moore" To: , , , "Huub van Helvoort" , "Q5/13" , References: <478754DB.8030501@cisco.com> <47877715.8090904@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:14:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b2809b6f39decc6de467dcf252f42af1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:21:53 -0500 Cc: mpls@ietf.org, IAB , pwe3 , statements@ietf.org, Russ Housley , Jari Arkko , iesg@ietf.org, Ross Callon , Mark Townsley , Stewart Bryant Subject: [mpls] Re: Ad Hoc committee on T-MPLS issues with G.8113 and G.8114 X-BeenThere: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Stewart, We will issue this as a liaison TD to Working Party 4/13. The decision on the Recommendations, in line with ITU-T working procedures and practices, will taken by the study group after consideration by Q5/13 and Working Party 4/13 of the technical issues raised in contributions to the meeting. Brian. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart Bryant" To: ; ; "Huub van Helvoort" ; "Q5/13" ; ; Cc: "Russ Housley" ; ; "IAB" ; "Mark Townsley" ; "Jari Arkko" ; "Ross Callon" ; "pwe3" ; ; "Danny McPherson" ; "Stewart Bryant" ; "George Swallow (swallow)" ; "Loa Andersson" ; Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 2:03 PM Subject: Ad Hoc committee on T-MPLS issues with G.8113 and G.8114 > To: > > tsbsg13@itu.int > Georges Sebek > ITU-T SG13 Question 5 > Huub van Helvoort > Brian Moore > Neal Seitz > > > CC: > > Russ Housley > IESG > IAB > Mark Townsley > Jari Arkko > David Ward > Ross Callon > pwe3 > mpls@ietf.org > Danny McPherson > Stewart Bryant > George Swallow > Loa Andersson > > statements@ietf.org > > For Action: > > As a direct result of the activities at the Stuttgart > meeting, the IAB formed a technical Ad Hoc committee on > T-MPLS. It was chartered to prepare the IETF for the > proposed cooperation on T-MPLS between the IETF and ITU-T. > > At the IETF meeting in Vancouver the Ad Hoc committee was > approached by people active on T-MPLS in the ITU-T who > proposed a joint effort to resolve outstanding issues on > two OAM documents (G.8113 and G.8114) that are scheduled > for approval in Seoul January 2008. A very aggressive joint > plan to resolve the issues were created. Since then the Ad Hoc > committee put in a huge effort to review the relevant > documents and compiled a list of outstanding issues. The > list has more than 60 issues and the process of resolving > those has only just started. The compiled list of issues > is attached to this liaison. > > In addition, as the Ad Hoc committee further considered > the G.8114 design it became clear that it proposes > two applications for label 14, an endpoint OAM alert, a P > router OAM alert (i.e. requires the P router to take > special action on packets with label 14 in the stack), > and we have also see a proposal to further extend use > of label 14 to provide a messaging channel for > control plane traffic. In addition to the detailed > review of G.8113 and G.8114, the IETF MPLS and PWE3 Working > Groups therefore have to question whether the proposed > approach of using a single reserved label (or indeed > any reserved label) is the right approach for the > applications that SG13 have in mind, and we believe that > this should be added to the issues list as an > additional significant concern. > > The Ad Hoc committee on T-MPLS have come to the > conclusion that G.8113 and G.8114 are not ready to be > approved. This conclusion was endorsed by the Internet > and Routing Area Directors jointly responsible for > this technology. > > The outstanding issues include technical, architectural, > and procedural issues. We think it is important that > these documents be put "on hold" until these issues > are resolved. > > The method of resolving the issues should involve expedient > implementation of the proposed agreement that was drafted > in Stuttgart, should follow the MPLS change process, and > should be based on the liaison statement sent by the > IAB and IESG to you last summer. > > > The documents are available at: > > http://www.tla-group.com/~loa/IETF-TMPLS-Issues-6.pdf > > and are attached to this liaison. > > The issues list and the conclusions above represent the > consensus of the IETF MPLS and PWE3 Working Groups. > > Regards > > Loa Andersson > Stewart Bryant > Danny McPherson > George Swallow > > IETF MPLS and PWE3 Working Group Co-Chairs > > > > > > _______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls From mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jan 11 09:22:45 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDKmS-0001Y1-IL; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:22:44 -0500 Received: from mpls by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JDKTM-0008Ii-27 for mpls-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:03:00 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDKTL-0008IZ-NK; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:02:59 -0500 Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDKTL-0007r5-B0; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:02:59 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.24,271,1196636400"; d="scan'208";a="2775734" Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2008 15:02:58 +0100 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0BE2wU2020394; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:02:58 +0100 Received: from dhcp-gpk02-vlan300-64-103-65-83.cisco.com (dhcp-gpk02-vlan300-64-103-65-83.cisco.com [64.103.65.83]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m0BE2gWs013578; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:02:42 GMT Message-ID: <47877701.8040505@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:02:41 +0000 From: Stewart Bryant User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pwe3 , mpls@ietf.org, Italo Busi References: <47872D6D.5070807@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <47872D6D.5070807@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1056; t=1200060178; x=1200924178; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=stbryant@cisco.com; z=From:=20Stewart=20Bryant=20 |Subject:=20[PWE3]=20consensus=20call=20on=20the=20t-mpls=2 0design=20team=20issues=20list |Sender:=20; bh=BSVWaWoJAnGIW9w29NfIHOjfBjseTfkdep1ADgsXXVY=; b=SmF/dQIbgCdn6gp+thODQonC5LRH2rkv5R6MJQKOy1deXlBKeLKS4dYOBC 9vnFsq7l8oxNBoMYGxFL4FLgmmnEIofD/aOVXa1RdcJgt9cwpI/N2ShVwwuu aHOSlHhcIp; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=stbryant@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:22:43 -0500 Cc: Ross Callon , Jari Arkko , David Ward , Mark Townsley , Stewart Bryant Subject: [mpls] [PWE3] consensus call on the t-mpls design team issues list X-BeenThere: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: stbryant@cisco.com List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Italo We believe that we have consensus to raise these issues, however there has been no indication of consensus to close any of them off. Indeed the debate on the PWE3 list indicates that we have a long way to go, and the response by the G.8114 editor to the AAP comments - for example the one that justifies redefinition of the Exp bits in the MPLS label by saying: "T-MPLS OAM frames are identified by label 14, hence there is no confusion possible between the EXP of traffic units and EXP (i.e. MEL) of OAM units." reinforces this position. We believe from an IETF perspective the only approach we can take is to keep all of the issues open, and table them at the SG13 meeting in Seoul. It is our view that had the correct IETF procedure been followed: use of the MPLS Change Process, presentation of Internet Drafts, and open discussion on the relevant IETF lists *at the start of, and throughout the G.8113/G.8114 design cycle* we would by now be much closer to closure on a solution. Regards Stewart & Loa _______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls From mpls-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jan 11 09:22:45 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDKmT-0001dP-HK; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:22:45 -0500 Received: from mpls by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JDKTZ-00008o-MD for mpls-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:03:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDKTZ-00008d-As; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:03:13 -0500 Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDKTU-0005SH-1G; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:03:13 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.24,271,1196636400"; d="pdf'?scan'208";a="2775746" Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2008 15:03:06 +0100 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0BE36fc020462; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:03:06 +0100 Received: from dhcp-gpk02-vlan300-64-103-65-83.cisco.com (dhcp-gpk02-vlan300-64-103-65-83.cisco.com [64.103.65.83]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m0BE31Ws013644; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:03:01 GMT Message-ID: <47877715.8090904@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:03:01 +0000 From: Stewart Bryant User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tsbsg13@itu.int, georges.sebek@itu.int, Huub van Helvoort , Q5/13 , brian@bwmc.demon.co.uk, neal@its.bldrdoc.gov References: <478754DB.8030501@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <478754DB.8030501@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070009000203030908060907" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=176149; t=1200060186; x=1200924186; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=stbryant@cisco.com; z=From:=20Stewart=20Bryant=20 |Subject:=20Ad=20Hoc=20committee=20on=20T-MPLS=20issues=20w ith=20G.8113=20and=20G.8114 |Sender:=20; bh=HJsklEuVOT70kOJujdz+VxRhK94px8FlprjUovV6Pc4=; b=s6iSW0VEoxy+0pSwspx7FqlzDutuqm7YGOHBeAlalon8qT9toS1YMr5GHC ZxFwUGKND5z454j2xU0lNp6Pcst7ybA+HpoXqjXfmXReGkIi2d3QQ/G9ABXv L6BXBs7WrC; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=stbryant@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 25e41ab3e3b35dc71c05a9bb0f98711d X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:22:43 -0500 Cc: mpls@ietf.org, IAB , pwe3 , statements@ietf.org, Russ Housley , Jari Arkko , "iesg@ietf.org" , Ross Callon , Mark Townsley , Stewart Bryant Subject: [mpls] Ad Hoc committee on T-MPLS issues with G.8113 and G.8114 X-BeenThere: mpls@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: stbryant@cisco.com List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: