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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: dnsop@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org
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Subject: [Mud] looking for reference for reverse maps do not work
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Hi, in reviews of
  https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-iot-dns-considerati=
ons-04.html

I was asked to expand upon why the reverse map can not be intelligently use=
d=20=20
for MUD ACLs. (section 3, XXX stuff)
(MUD controllers, upon being presented with ACLs made up of
names need to do forward lookups of the names and build ACLs based upon the
IP addresses.)

There are two aspects of this:
  1) even in an ideal situation, it takes too long on the first packet to
     extract a name from an IP address.  Yes, that could be aggresively cac=
hed.

  2) forward:reverse maps are N:M mappings, often with unidirectional parts=
, and often
     broken or not delegated.
=20=20=20=20=20
     Further, there is no authorization of the mappings, so an attacker who
     wants to be able to reach IP address 2001:db8::abcd, can insert a
     reverse name of their choice, including updates.example.com, which is
     permitted by the MUD ACL.

While I can write the above paragraph, I don't feel that it's detailed enou=
gh
for what is needed, and I feel that we (the IETF) must have documented the
security issues with reverse/forward mismatched at least twice over the past
40 years.

I'm looking for a good well reviewed reference to use rather than repeating
this again.

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide

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From nobody Mon Apr 11 08:45:59 2022
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From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>
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Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mud/ST2G__rkWZXq9QmP0yCLg4lc8Mg>
Subject: Re: [Mud] [DNSOP] looking for reference for reverse maps do not work
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I tried to document this ages ago in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-=
ietf-dnsop-reverse-mapping-considerations/, and got so many contradictory ed=
its (see the history) that the final version ended up saying =E2=80=9CA or m=
aybe not-A, or maybe both, your choice,=E2=80=9D so the then-chairs decided t=
he document wasn=E2=80=99t worth sending through publication.=20

A

=E2=80=94=20
Andrew Sullivan=20
Please excuse my clumbsy thums

> On Apr 11, 2022, at 11:38, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrot=
e:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> Hi, in reviews of
>  https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-iot-dns-considerati=
ons-04.html
>=20
> I was asked to expand upon why the reverse map can not be intelligently us=
ed =20
> for MUD ACLs. (section 3, XXX stuff)
> (MUD controllers, upon being presented with ACLs made up of
> names need to do forward lookups of the names and build ACLs based upon th=
e
> IP addresses.)
>=20
> There are two aspects of this:
>  1) even in an ideal situation, it takes too long on the first packet to
>     extract a name from an IP address.  Yes, that could be aggresively cac=
hed.
>=20
>  2) forward:reverse maps are N:M mappings, often with unidirectional parts=
, and often
>     broken or not delegated.
>=20
>     Further, there is no authorization of the mappings, so an attacker who=

>     wants to be able to reach IP address 2001:db8::abcd, can insert a
>     reverse name of their choice, including updates.example.com, which is
>     permitted by the MUD ACL.
>=20
> While I can write the above paragraph, I don't feel that it's detailed eno=
ugh
> for what is needed, and I feel that we (the IETF) must have documented the=

> security issues with reverse/forward mismatched at least twice over the pa=
st
> 40 years.
>=20
> I'm looking for a good well reviewed reference to use rather than repeatin=
g
> this again.
>=20
> --=20
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consult=
ing )
>           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">I tried to document this ages ago in&nbsp;<=
a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-reverse-mapping-=
considerations/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-reverse-m=
apping-considerations/</a>, and got so many contradictory edits (see the his=
tory) that the final version ended up saying =E2=80=9CA or maybe not-A, or m=
aybe both, your choice,=E2=80=9D so the then-chairs decided the document was=
n=E2=80=99t worth sending through publication.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>A<br=
><br><div dir=3D"ltr">=E2=80=94&nbsp;<div>Andrew Sullivan&nbsp;</div><div>Pl=
ease excuse my clumbsy thums</div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite">On Apr 11, 2022, at 11:38, Michael Richardson &lt;mcr+ietf@sandel=
man.ca&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<span></span><br><span>Hi, in reviews of</span><br><span=
> &nbsp;https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-iot-dns-consid=
erations-04.html</span><br><span></span><br><span>I was asked to expand upon=
 why the reverse map can not be intelligently used &nbsp;</span><br><span>fo=
r MUD ACLs. (section 3, XXX stuff)</span><br><span>(MUD controllers, upon be=
ing presented with ACLs made up of</span><br><span>names need to do forward l=
ookups of the names and build ACLs based upon the</span><br><span>IP address=
es.)</span><br><span></span><br><span>There are two aspects of this:</span><=
br><span> &nbsp;1) even in an ideal situation, it takes too long on the firs=
t packet to</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;extract a name from an I=
P address. &nbsp;Yes, that could be aggresively cached.</span><br><span></sp=
an><br><span> &nbsp;2) forward:reverse maps are N:M mappings, often with uni=
directional parts, and often</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;broken=
 or not delegated.</span><br><span></span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;Further, there is no authorization of the mappings, so an attacker who</spa=
n><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;wants to be able to reach IP address 20=
01:db8::abcd, can insert a</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;reverse n=
ame of their choice, including updates.example.com, which is</span><br><span=
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;permitted by the MUD ACL.</span><br><span></span><=
br><span>While I can write the above paragraph, I don't feel that it's detai=
led enough</span><br><span>for what is needed, and I feel that we (the IETF)=
 must have documented the</span><br><span>security issues with reverse/forwa=
rd mismatched at least twice over the past</span><br><span>40 years.</span><=
br><span></span><br><span>I'm looking for a good well reviewed reference to u=
se rather than repeating</span><br><span>this again.</span><br><span></span>=
<br><span>-- </span><br><span>Michael Richardson &lt;mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca&g=
t; &nbsp;&nbsp;. o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulting )</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Sandelman Software Works I=
nc, Ottawa and Worldwide</span><br><span>___________________________________=
____________</span><br><span>DNSOP mailing list</span><br><span>DNSOP@ietf.o=
rg</span><br><span>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</span><br></d=
iv></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>
cc: dnsop@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org
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Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:37:18 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [DNSOP] looking for reference for reverse maps do not work
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Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> wrote:
    > I tried to document this ages ago in
    > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-reverse-mapping-con=
siderations/,
    > and got so many contradictory edits (see the history) that the final
    > version ended up saying =E2=80=9CA or maybe not-A, or maybe both, you=
r choice,=E2=80=9D
    > so the then-chairs decided the document wasn=E2=80=99t worth sending =
through
    > publication.

Oh.  That's why I don't want to attempt writing this myself.

So, that's not encouraging.

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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