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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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From nobody Mon Aug  1 08:46:04 2016
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
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Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Thanks.
So, for text for a potential work item, we could say something like "the WG=
 assumes that the HAG is not necessarily on the default routing path betwee=
n the end hosts".  This then leaves open whether we solve this problem in t=
he mptcp-based protocol (as per plain mode) or solve it in the underlying l=
ayer (eg through a tunnel - transparent mode).
Do we assume that the other end of the mptcp segment is on the default rout=
ing path?  I suppose this is the case for the CPE example we usually have i=
n mind - but since we want a general protocol, it would be good if this end=
 also need not be on the default end-to-end path.=20

It was also suggested to have a second (informational) document.
As a point of reference, our charter currently says (this is about one-ende=
d proxy): << The working group will detail what real problems an MPTCP-enab=
led middlebox might solve, how it would impact the Multipath TCP architectu=
re (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be justified as compared against al=
ternative solutions to the problems, and the likely feasibility of solving =
the technical and security issues.>>
So a potential work item may say something like:
The working group will detail the use cases /deployment scenarios, the oper=
ational considerations and .... [anything else? Interaction with endhost-to=
-endhost MPTCP?]

Incidentally, it may be possible to use some of the text from draft-deng-mp=
tcp-mobile-network-proxy ?

I also note that draft-boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode has a very open-ended ipr=
 statement. Do you think it could be made more specific (at some point)?=20

phil


-----Original Message-----
From: Olivier Bonaventure [mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be]=20
Sent: 27 July 2016 09:43
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com>; multipathtcp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended prox=
y

Phil,

> So far this discussion has made me a bit confused. Let me ask a=20
> specific
> question:-
>
> Why do we need both transparent and plain mode? If these are=20
> addressing different usage scenarios, please explain them (in a=20
> paragraph?)

The two modes address different deployment scenarios.

In the transparent mode, the HAG resides on the path to/from the client.=20
There are many ways in current networks to ensure that the HAG is on the pa=
th of the clients that it serves. The transparent mode requires one option =
to distinguish between end-to-end MPTCP connections (directly established b=
y the client using an MPTCP stack) and proxied connections.=20
During IETF96, the authors of plain-mode and transparent-mode agreed that t=
he transparent-mode draft would use an emply plain mode option to indicate =
that a connection has been proxied.

In the plain-mode, the HAG does not need to be on the path to/from the clie=
nt. The plain-mode option is used to signal the original source/destination=
 address of the connection depending on the usage.




Olivier


From nobody Mon Aug  1 11:42:58 2016
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On 08/01/2016 07:13 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>> Why is it necessary to know that the connection has been proxied ?
> WH> Otherwise the concentrator will perform the proxy function although the destination is the application server.
> So assume an E2E MPTCP flow. The UE initiates it and the element with the network assisted MPTCP proxy (Concentrator) receives it. The concentrator should not proxy this flow. It should only act upon MPTCP flow that should be proxied in network assisted mode. This is the reason we need an indication about this
This seems like a deployment issue not a protocol issue. The decision to 
proxy or not proxy should be based on the IP addresses or out of band 
signaling. After all the entity adding the option some how knows to add 
the option.

I liked the initial proposal as it did not require any changes to the 
protocol. These change (as I have said before) seem very deployment 
specific and IMHO should not be part of the protocol.
>>> In the plain-mode, the HAG does not need to be on the path to/from the
>>> client. The plain-mode option is used to signal the original
>>> source/destination address of the connection depending on the usage.
>> Since we seem to be only considering TCP, will the protocol field be
>> removed from the draft ?
> WH> this is to be discussed
It has to be or we are allowing protocol encapsulation. In which case we 
need to define the complete mechanism.

Rao
>> Shoaib
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Olivier
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> multipathtcp mailing list
>>> multipathtcp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
>> _______________________________________________
>> multipathtcp mailing list
>> multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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From: Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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I do not understand why TCP is in scope and any other protocol is not. 
At the Yokohama IETF most in the room were interested in encapsulating 
UDP. In fact encapsulating TCP has more implications (due to its end to 
end congestion control) than UDP and hence that needs to be studied.

A compromise could be that we define a generic option that means, 
interpret the header enclosed or some thing like that. It's too bad that 
the mobile environment can not deal with the extra header. In which case 
it should always use transparent proxying.

Rao.

On 07/26/2016 08:07 AM, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
>
> So far this discussion has made me a bit confused. Let me ask a 
> specific question:-
>
> Why do we need both transparent and plain mode? If these are 
> addressing different usage scenarios, please explain them (in a 
> paragraph?)  (this is important as a charter item would start by 
> talking about the issue it was tackling – and then may mention some 
> starting points or assumptions about the solution)
>
> Plain mode involves a signalling protocol (extension to mptcp – I 
> assume this would be in scope of a prospective charter); then 
> subsequently a way of handling the actual traffic (UDP seems out of 
> scope; TCP I’m not sure to what extent this would be in scope). Do I 
> understand this right? Comments?
>
> Thanks
>
> phil
>


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<html>
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    <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <p>I do not understand why TCP is in scope and any other protocol is
      not. At the Yokohama IETF most in the room were interested in
      encapsulating UDP. In fact encapsulating TCP has more implications
      (due to its end to end congestion control) than UDP and hence that
      needs to be studied.</p>
    <p>A compromise could be that we define a generic option that means,
      interpret the header enclosed or some thing like that. It's too
      bad that the mobile environment can not deal with the extra
      header. In which case it should always use transparent proxying.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Rao.<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/26/2016 08:07 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">philip.eardley@bt.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:e2aa6ac517194af4b8c25c07f8e469fb@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net"
      type="cite">
      <p class="MsoNormal"
        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
          style="color:#1F497D">So far this discussion has made me a bit
          confused. Let me ask a specific question:-<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"
        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
          style="color:#1F497D">Why do we need both transparent and
          plain mode? If these are addressing different usage scenarios,
          please explain them (in a paragraph?)  (this is important as a
          charter item would start by talking about the issue it was
          tackling – and then may mention some starting points or
          assumptions about the solution)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"
        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
          style="color:#1F497D">Plain mode involves a signalling
          protocol (extension to mptcp – I assume this would be in scope
          of a prospective charter); then subsequently a way of handling
          the actual traffic (UDP seems out of scope; TCP I’m not sure
          to what extent this would be in scope). Do I understand this
          right? Comments?
          <o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"
        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
          style="color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"
        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
          style="color:#1F497D">phil</span></p>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------90846C0CA8F5D248190C0D86--


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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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To: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
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From: Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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On 08/01/2016 12:05 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) wrote:
>> I liked the initial proposal as it did not require any changes to the
>> >protocol. These change (as I have said before) seem very deployment
>> >specific and IMHO should not be part of the protocol.
> WH> I would disagree since you donâ€™t always control the addressing and it is better to have an explicit signaling in the protocol what to expect to happen.
Can you kindly provide an example of another standard IETF protocol that 
has this feature or something similar.

Shoaib

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    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/01/2016 12:05 PM, Henderickx, Wim
      (Nokia - BE) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:0084773F-53E5-41A4-A244-430DAF12322A@nokia.com"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
        <pre wrap="">I liked the initial proposal as it did not require any changes to the 
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;</span>protocol. These change (as I have said before) seem very deployment 
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;</span>specific and IMHO should not be part of the protocol.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">WH&gt; I would disagree since you donâ€™t always control the addressing and it is better to have an explicit signaling in the protocol what to expect to happen.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Can you kindly provide an example of another standard IETF protocol
    that has this feature or something similar.<br>
    <br>
    Shoaib
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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
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From: Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com>
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Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 13:43:18 -0700
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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On 08/01/2016 01:40 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) wrote:
>
>
> From: Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com <mailto:rao.shoaib@oracle.com>>
> Date: Monday 1 August 2016 at 21:46
> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com 
> <mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org 
> <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>" <multipathtcp@ietf.org 
> <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended 
> proxy
>
>
>
> On 08/01/2016 12:05 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) wrote:
>>> I liked the initial proposal as it did not require any changes to the
>>> >protocol. These change (as I have said before) seem very deployment
>>> >specific and IMHO should not be part of the protocol.
>> WH> I would disagree since you donâ€™t always control the addressing and it is better to have an explicit signaling in the protocol what to expect to happen.
> Can you kindly provide an example of another standard IETF protocol 
> that has this feature or something similar.
>
> WH> I am not sure how relevant this is but you can find them in SIP 
> e.g. Let have the discussion on th requirements. We already indicated 
> that the usage of SOCKS is too chatty which is an OOB mechanism we 
> propose. In the scenarioâ€™s we have in mind it is better to do this 
> in-band in the protocol to avoid the extra latency.
Sounds good.

Shoaib
>
>
> Shoaib


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/01/2016 01:40 PM, Henderickx, Wim
      (Nokia - BE) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:9A3D1498-3EC9-4E80-8731-730999F8739C@nokia.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
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          BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
          <span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Rao Shoaib &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rao.shoaib@oracle.com">rao.shoaib@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Monday 1 August
          2016 at 21:46<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Wim Henderickx &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;,
          "<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>"
          &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re:
          [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended
          proxy<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>
          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
            <p><br>
            </p>
            <br>
            <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/01/2016 12:05 PM,
              Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote
              cite="mid:0084773F-53E5-41A4-A244-430DAF12322A@nokia.com"
              type="cite">
              <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
                <pre wrap="">I liked the initial proposal as it did not require any changes to the 
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;</span>protocol. These change (as I have said before) seem very deployment 
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;</span>specific and IMHO should not be part of the protocol.
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">WH&gt; I would disagree since you donâ€™t always control the addressing and it is better to have an explicit signaling in the protocol what to expect to happen.
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            Can you kindly provide an example of another standard IETF
            protocol that has this feature or something similar.</div>
        </div>
      </span>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>WH&gt; I am not sure how relevant this is but you can find
        them in SIP e.g. Let have the discussion on th requirements. We
        already indicated that the usage of SOCKS is too chatty which is
        an OOB mechanism we propose. In the scenarioâ€™s we have in mind
        it is better to do this in-band in the protocol to avoid the
        extra latency.</div>
    </blockquote>
    Sounds good.<br>
    <br>
    Shoaib<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:9A3D1498-3EC9-4E80-8731-730999F8739C@nokia.com"
      type="cite">
      <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
        <div>
          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><br>
            <br>
            Shoaib </div>
        </div>
      </span>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 21:05:21 -0700
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To: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Hello,

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) <
wim.henderickx@nokia.com> wrote:

>
>
> From: Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com>
> Date: Monday 1 August 2016 at 21:46
> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <
> multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended
> proxy
>
>
>
> On 08/01/2016 12:05 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) wrote:
>
> I liked the initial proposal as it did not require any changes to the >pr=
otocol. These change (as I have said before) seem very deployment >specific=
 and IMHO should not be part of the protocol.
>
> WH> I would disagree since you don=E2=80=99t always control the addressin=
g and it is better to have an explicit signaling in the protocol what to ex=
pect to happen.
>
> Can you kindly provide an example of another standard IETF protocol that
> has this feature or something similar.
>
> WH> I am not sure how relevant this is but you can find them in SIP e.g.
> Let have the discussion on th requirements. We already indicated that the
> usage of SOCKS is too chatty which is an OOB mechanism we propose. In the
> scenario=E2=80=99s we have in mind it is better to do this in-band in the=
 protocol
> to avoid the extra latency.
>

I personally think this could be a trade-off discussion point.
A question would be if we want to update mptcp to carry non-mptcp-related
(upper layer) info into the mptcp option in order to reduce latency for
specific use cases.

Or, we just use mptcp as it is and accept the latency. SOCKS might be too
chatty for this purpose, but I am thinking it will not be an only option.

Thanks,
--
Yoshi

--001a113cba385e34e905390ed3f5
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello,<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div></div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:12pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Rao Shoaib &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:rao.shoaib@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">rao.shoaib@oracle.com</a>&gt;<=
br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Monday 1 August 2016 at 21:46=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Wim Henderickx &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank">wim.henderickx@nokia.com<=
/a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">m=
ultipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [multipathtcp] towards=
 a potential work item on two-ended proxy<br>
</div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div>On 08/01/2016 12:05 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"color:#000000">
<pre>I liked the initial proposal as it did not require any changes to the=
=20
<span>&gt;</span>protocol. These change (as I have said before) seem very d=
eployment=20
<span>&gt;</span>specific and IMHO should not be part of the protocol.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>WH&gt; I would disagree since you don=E2=80=99t always control the add=
ressing and it is better to have an explicit signaling in the protocol what=
 to expect to happen.
</pre>
</blockquote>
Can you kindly provide an example of another standard IETF protocol that ha=
s this feature or something similar.</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>WH&gt; I am not sure how relevant this is but you can find them in SIP=
 e.g. Let have the discussion on th requirements. We already indicated that=
 the usage of SOCKS is too chatty which is an OOB mechanism we propose. In =
the scenario=E2=80=99s we have in mind it is
 better to do this in-band in the protocol to avoid the extra latency.</div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I personally think this could be a =
trade-off discussion point.=C2=A0</div><div>A question would be if we want =
to update mptcp to carry non-mptcp-related (upper layer) info into the mptc=
p option in order to reduce latency for specific use cases.=C2=A0</div><div=
><br></div><div>Or, we just use mptcp as it is and accept the latency. SOCK=
S might be too chatty for this purpose, but I am thinking it will not be an=
 only option.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>--</div><div>Yoshi=
</div></div></div></div>

--001a113cba385e34e905390ed3f5--


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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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From: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 21:15:21 -0700
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To: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Hello,

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) <
wim.henderickx@nokia.com> wrote:

>
> >>> Since we seem to be only considering TCP, will the protocol field be
> >>> removed from the draft ?
> >> WH> this is to be discussed
> >It has to be or we are allowing protocol encapsulation. In which case we
> >need to define the complete mechanism.
> WH> I would agree to that


Just in case, I might want to clarify this won't be encapsulation since I
think what plain-mode does is protocol conversion.
My concern is protocol conversions between mptcp-tcp and mptcp-udp might be
very different. Also, if we try to support other protocols, we might need
other conversion rules.

Thanks,
--
Yoshi

--001a114bd45c2ac4e105390ef79e
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello,<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><span><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Since we seem to be only considering TCP, will the protocol fi=
eld be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; removed from the draft ?<br>
&gt;&gt; WH&gt; this is to be discussed<br>
&gt;It has to be or we are allowing protocol encapsulation. In which case w=
e<br>
&gt;need to define the complete mechanism.<br>
</span>WH&gt; I would agree to that</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Just in=
 case, I might want to clarify this won&#39;t be encapsulation since I thin=
k what plain-mode does is protocol conversion.</div><div>My concern is prot=
ocol conversions between mptcp-tcp and mptcp-udp might be very different. A=
lso, if we try to support other protocols, we might need other conversion r=
ules.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>--</div><div>Yoshi</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div><=
/div>

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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Hi Phil,

Please see inline.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de
> philip.eardley@bt.com
> Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 1 ao=FBt 2016 17:46
> =C0=A0: multipathtcp@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended
> proxy
>=20
> Thanks.
> So, for text for a potential work item, we could say something like "the
> WG assumes that the HAG is not necessarily on the default routing path
> between the end hosts".

[Med] Yes, with some modifications to the wording:=20
* Actually, there are many "default" forwarding path*S*; a default forwardi=
ng path per network attachment. These default forwarding paths may be compl=
etely disjoint.=20
* I suggest to avoid using "HAG" term because it is tied to a specific use =
case while the proxy work is applicable to a variety of use cases. I prefer=
 much more "MPTCP Concentrator" or "Network-Assisted MPTCP Proxy". =20

  This then leaves open whether we solve this
> problem in the mptcp-based protocol (as per plain mode) or solve it in th=
e
> underlying layer (eg through a tunnel - transparent mode).
> Do we assume that the other end of the mptcp segment is on the default
> routing path?  I suppose this is the case for the CPE example we usually
> have in mind - but since we want a general protocol, it would be good if
> this end also need not be on the default end-to-end path.

[Med] Another approach for this one is the charter to be silent about it, i=
.e., we don't assume nor preclude it.      =20

>=20
> It was also suggested to have a second (informational) document.
> As a point of reference, our charter currently says (this is about one-
> ended proxy): << The working group will detail what real problems an
> MPTCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact the Multipath TC=
P
> architecture (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be justified as compare=
d
> against alternative solutions to the problems, and the likely feasibility
> of solving the technical and security issues.>>
> So a potential work item may say something like:
> The working group will detail the use cases /deployment scenarios, the
> operational considerations and .... [anything else? Interaction with
> endhost-to-endhost MPTCP?]

[Med] I would add protocol extensions to differentiate native MPTCP connect=
ions from proxied ones.=20

>=20
> Incidentally, it may be possible to use some of the text from draft-deng-
> mptcp-mobile-network-proxy ?
>=20
> I also note that draft-boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode has a very open-ended
> ipr statement. Do you think it could be made more specific (at some
> point)?

[Med] FWIW, that IPR does not apply to the current version of the plain-mod=
e draft since a step mentioned in the first claim of that patent deposit is=
 not present in the draft. =20

>=20
> phil
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Olivier Bonaventure [mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be]
> Sent: 27 July 2016 09:43
> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com>;
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended
> proxy
>=20
> Phil,
>=20
> > So far this discussion has made me a bit confused. Let me ask a
> > specific
> > question:-
> >
> > Why do we need both transparent and plain mode? If these are
> > addressing different usage scenarios, please explain them (in a
> > paragraph?)
>=20
> The two modes address different deployment scenarios.
>=20
> In the transparent mode, the HAG resides on the path to/from the client.
> There are many ways in current networks to ensure that the HAG is on the
> path of the clients that it serves. The transparent mode requires one
> option to distinguish between end-to-end MPTCP connections (directly
> established by the client using an MPTCP stack) and proxied connections.
> During IETF96, the authors of plain-mode and transparent-mode agreed that
> the transparent-mode draft would use an emply plain mode option to
> indicate that a connection has been proxied.
>=20
> In the plain-mode, the HAG does not need to be on the path to/from the
> client. The plain-mode option is used to signal the original
> source/destination address of the connection depending on the usage.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Olivier
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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To: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Hi all,

> On 1 Aug 2016, at 20:05, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com> wrote:
> On 01/08/16 20:42, "Rao Shoaib" <rao.shoaib@oracle.com> wrote:
>> On 08/01/2016 07:13 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) wrote:
>>>> Why is it necessary to know that the connection has been proxied ?
>>> WH> Otherwise the concentrator will perform the proxy function =
although the destination is the application server.
>>> So assume an E2E MPTCP flow. The UE initiates it and the element =
with the network assisted MPTCP proxy (Concentrator) receives it. The =
concentrator should not proxy this flow. It should only act upon MPTCP =
flow that should be proxied in network assisted mode. This is the reason =
we need an indication about this
>> This seems like a deployment issue not a protocol issue. The decision =
to=20
>> proxy or not proxy should be based on the IP addresses or out of band=20=

>> signaling. After all the entity adding the option some how knows to =
add=20
>> the option.
>>=20
>> I liked the initial proposal as it did not require any changes to the=20=

>> protocol. These change (as I have said before) seem very deployment=20=

>> specific and IMHO should not be part of the protocol.
> WH> I would disagree since you don=E2=80=99t always control the =
addressing and it is better to have an explicit signaling in the =
protocol what to expect to happen.

I=E2=80=99m trying to distinguish the various use cases; can we confirm =
this is correct?

Transparent Mode
- Source address =3D real source address
- Destination address =3D real destination address
- Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, adding =
and removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc
- Latest proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is =
proxied=E2=80=9D so that a proxy can intercept it

Plain Mode
- Source address =3D real source
- Destination address =3D proxy destination address
- Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination address

So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main difference is =
that Plain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas the =
transparent mode does not change src/dst addresses?

The issue I see with a generic proxy bit is that it does not contain any =
context about what kind of proxy is being intercepted. You could be =
sending in good faith expecting it to be picked up by Proxy from =
Operator A, but in fact is picked up by Operator B.

As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not MPTCP-specific =
and is simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that follows is =
actually targeted for IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is entirely =
transport-agnostic. If the HAG could know where to find a proxy (e.g. a =
well-known anycast address) then addresses could be rewritten and =
packets forwarded, with no need for any MPTCP protocol changes.

However, I fear I may be misunderstanding some of the elements here, so =
I look forward to a consolidated draft where it should hopefully be much =
clearer what the proposal is.

Regards,
Alan


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 1/5 - Load Balancing
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Hi Fabien, all,

I support the addition of this flag - it seems useful for the two use =
cases you have identified below, could be added at little implementation =
and spec cost, and could potentially find new useful purposes in the =
future.

I look forward to mails 2-5 of this series ;-)

Regards,
Alan

> On 28 Jul 2016, at 13:18, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne =
<fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
> discuss the different contributions proposed
> inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
>=20
> To allow Multipath TCP to operate for servers residing behind =
unmodified
> layer 4 load balancers we propose to define the "B" flag in the
> MP_CAPABLE option.
>=20
> This flag can only be used during the three-way handshake. When this
> flag is set, it indicates that the source IP address of the segment
> containing this flag does not accept the establishment of additional
> subflows for this connection. Otherwise, the source IP address of this
> segment can be used as destination address to create additional =
subflows.
>=20
> There are two use cases for this flag :
>=20
> - servers behind a load balancer can use this flag in the SYN+ACK to
> indicate that the IP address of the load balancer should not be used =
to
> establish subflows. Those servers will typically announce one or more
> other addresses with the ADD_ADDR option.
> - clients behind firewalls or NAT can use this flag in the SYN. If set
> in the SYN, the flag MUST also be set in the third ACK to support
> stateless servers.
>=20
> We would appreciate your feedback on this proposition.
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Fabien
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <alan.ford@gmail.com>, <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 1/5 - Load Balancing
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 1/5 - Load Balancing
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <rao.shoaib@oracle.com>, <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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That's not quite what I meant.
I was referring to defining a new tunnelling protocol or "swapping the head=
ers" protocol or something similar. I think this is not something that mptc=
p wg would standardise - at least, I think we would have to liaise with oth=
er WGs (Intarea wg) about this - as it would seem more in their remit than =
ours. If this is something that we know in advance the proxy work will requ=
ire (rather than something that may emerge when we develop the solution), t=
hen we probably should start the discussion sooner than later

phil


From: multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rao =
Shoaib
Sent: 01 August 2016 19:51
To: multipathtcp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended prox=
y


I do not understand why TCP is in scope and any other protocol is not. At t=
he Yokohama IETF most in the room were interested in encapsulating UDP. In =
fact encapsulating TCP has more implications (due to its end to end congest=
ion control) than UDP and hence that needs to be studied.

A compromise could be that we define a generic option that means, interpret=
 the header enclosed or some thing like that. It's too bad that the mobile =
environment can not deal with the extra header. In which case it should alw=
ays use transparent proxying.

Rao.
On 07/26/2016 08:07 AM, philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>=
 wrote:
So far this discussion has made me a bit confused. Let me ask a specific qu=
estion:-
Why do we need both transparent and plain mode? If these are addressing dif=
ferent usage scenarios, please explain them (in a paragraph?)  (this is imp=
ortant as a charter item would start by talking about the issue it was tack=
ling - and then may mention some starting points or assumptions about the s=
olution)
Plain mode involves a signalling protocol (extension to mptcp - I assume th=
is would be in scope of a prospective charter); then subsequently a way of =
handling the actual traffic (UDP seems out of scope; TCP I'm not sure to wh=
at extent this would be in scope). Do I understand this right? Comments?
Thanks
phil


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">That&#8217=
;s not quite what I meant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I was refe=
rring to defining a new tunnelling protocol or &#8220;swapping the headers&=
#8221; protocol or something similar. I think this is not
 something that mptcp wg would standardise &#8211; at least, I think we wou=
ld have to liaise with other WGs (Intarea wg) about this &#8211; as it woul=
d seem more in their remit than ours. If this is something that we know in =
advance the proxy work will require (rather
 than something that may emerge when we develop the solution), then we prob=
ably should start the discussion sooner than later<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">phil<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"> multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces=
@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Rao Shoaib<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 01 August 2016 19:51<br>
<b>To:</b> multipathtcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-end=
ed proxy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p>I do not understand why TCP is in scope and any other protocol is not. A=
t the Yokohama IETF most in the room were interested in encapsulating UDP. =
In fact encapsulating TCP has more implications (due to its end to end cong=
estion control) than UDP and hence
 that needs to be studied.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>A compromise could be that we define a generic option that means, interp=
ret the header enclosed or some thing like that. It's too bad that the mobi=
le environment can not deal with the extra header. In which case it should =
always use transparent proxying.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Rao.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 07/26/2016 08:07 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:philip.ear=
dley@bt.com">
philip.eardley@bt.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">So far this discussion has made me a=
 bit confused. Let me ask a specific question:-</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Why do we need both transparent and =
plain mode? If these are addressing different usage scenarios, please expla=
in them (in a paragraph?)&nbsp; (this is important
 as a charter item would start by talking about the issue it was tackling &=
#8211; and then may mention some starting points or assumptions about the s=
olution)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Plain mode involves a signalling pro=
tocol (extension to mptcp &#8211; I assume this would be in scope of a pros=
pective charter); then subsequently a way of
 handling the actual traffic (UDP seems out of scope; TCP I&#8217;m not sur=
e to what extent this would be in scope). Do I understand this right? Comme=
nts?
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">phil</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: [multipathtcp] Application-layer Authentication
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--Apple-Mail=_124DC2A0-CAC0-42AC-97C5-12479149F678
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	charset=utf-8

Hi all,

Picking up from the discussion in Berlin=E2=80=A6 It was generally felt =
that more discussion was required around the proposal for =
application-layer authentication. So, I=E2=80=99m posting this in the =
hope that folks who think that more discussion is required can raise =
their concerns and queries.

To recap, we have proposed application-layer authentication in two =
separate drafts:

=
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-paasch-mptcp-application-authentication-00.t=
xt =
<https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-paasch-mptcp-application-authentication-00.=
txt> - the proposal for the =E2=80=98G=E2=80=99 bit for RFC6824bis
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-paasch-mptcp-tls-authentication-00.txt =
<https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-paasch-mptcp-tls-authentication-00.txt> - =
how to use this with TLS

The first of these defines the =E2=80=98G=E2=80=99 bit of the crypto =
algorithm section bits of the MP_CAPABLE handshake to mean =
=E2=80=9Capplication-layer=E2=80=9D. This means that whatever =
application is driving this MPTCP connection is responsible for =
providing keying material to the MPTCP stack in order to authenticate =
MP_JOIN messages etc. The tokens are entirely arbitrary (rather than =
being key-derived) and are exchanged in place of the keys in the =
MP_CAPABLE handshake.

This allows tokens to be meaningful for the sender, so data e.g. =
back-end server IDs can be carried. This also removes handling of hash =
collisions. This also permits stronger crypto to be used without any =
further protocol changes.

The second draft shows how to use this with RFC5705 TLS key exporters, =
so an application-layer TLS session can provide the secure keys to be =
used by future sub flows.

Concerns were raised over the limited uses of this, but what we would =
counter with is that the draft is deliberately vague in its proposals - =
as long as both ends know what application-layer authentication scheme =
could be used, _anything_ can be used here - TLS is just an example. =
Whilst the use of TLS would prevent additional subflows hijacking a =
connection anyway, that is protection only against the security aspects =
here, and not the convenience factors of separating tokens from keys.

Regards,
Alan=

--Apple-Mail=_124DC2A0-CAC0-42AC-97C5-12479149F678
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi all,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Picking up from the discussion in Berlin=E2=80=A6 It was =
generally felt that more discussion was required around the proposal for =
application-layer authentication. So, I=E2=80=99m posting this in the =
hope that folks who think that more discussion is required can raise =
their concerns and queries.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">To recap, we have proposed application-layer authentication =
in two separate drafts:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-paasch-mptcp-application-authenticat=
ion-00.txt" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-paasch-mptcp-application-authenti=
cation-00.txt</a>&nbsp;- the proposal for the =E2=80=98G=E2=80=99 bit =
for RFC6824bis</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-paasch-mptcp-tls-authentication-00.t=
xt" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-paasch-mptcp-tls-authentication-0=
0.txt</a>&nbsp;- how to use this with TLS</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The first of these defines the =E2=80=98G=
=E2=80=99 bit of the crypto algorithm section bits of the MP_CAPABLE =
handshake to mean =E2=80=9Capplication-layer=E2=80=9D. This means that =
whatever application is driving this MPTCP connection is responsible for =
providing keying material to the MPTCP stack in order to authenticate =
MP_JOIN messages etc. The tokens are entirely arbitrary (rather than =
being key-derived) and are exchanged in place of the keys in the =
MP_CAPABLE handshake.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This allows tokens to be meaningful for the sender, so data =
e.g. back-end server IDs can be carried. This also removes handling of =
hash collisions. This also permits stronger crypto to be used without =
any further protocol changes.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The second draft shows how to use this =
with RFC5705 TLS key exporters, so an application-layer TLS session can =
provide the secure keys to be used by future sub flows.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Concerns were raised =
over the limited uses of this, but what we would counter with is that =
the draft is deliberately vague in its proposals - as long as both ends =
know what application-layer authentication scheme could be used, =
_anything_ can be used here - TLS is just an example. Whilst the use of =
TLS would prevent additional subflows hijacking a connection anyway, =
that is protection only against the security aspects here, and not the =
convenience factors of separating tokens from keys.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Alan</div></body></html>=

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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 19:31:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <08A92759-0446-440B-A76E-2E89518E1336@nokia.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 08:20:26 +0100
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To: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Hi Wim, all,

Comment inline...

> On 2 Aug 2016, at 20:11, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com> wrote:
> On 02/08/16 15:52, "Alan Ford" <alan.ford@gmail.com =
<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m trying to distinguish the various use cases; can we =
confirm this is correct?
>>=20
>> Transparent Mode
>> - Source address =3D real source address
> WH> not always since NAT can be in the path
>> - Destination address =3D real destination address
>> - Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, =
adding and removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc
>> - Latest proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is =
proxied=E2=80=9D so that a proxy can intercept it
> WH> indeed or not intercept it based on the indication
>>=20
>> Plain Mode
>> - Source address =3D real source
> WH> could also be NATed in some use cases
>> - Destination address =3D proxy destination address
>> - Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination address
> WH> or SRC address
>>=20
>> So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main difference is =
that Plain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas the =
transparent mode does not change src/dst addresses?
> WH> the main difference is mainly DST IP is changed to get explicit =
routing to the proxy versus being implicit in the transparent case

OK, so my understanding appears correct here.

>> The issue I see with a generic proxy bit is that it does not contain =
any context about what kind of proxy is being intercepted. You could be =
sending in good faith expecting it to be picked up by Proxy from =
Operator A, but in fact is picked up by Operator B.
> WH> the network assisted proxy is mainly targeting single =
operator/controlled operator use cases to avoid these issues.
>>=20
>> As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not =
MPTCP-specific and is simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that =
follows is actually targeted for IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is =
entirely transport-agnostic. If the HAG could know where to find a proxy =
(e.g. a well-known anycast address) then addresses could be rewritten =
and packets forwarded, with no need for any MPTCP protocol changes.
> WH> you would still need to know the original destination IP@ that the =
application wanted to go to.

Which is the point of the signalling protocol - the proposed =E2=80=9Cplai=
n mode option=E2=80=9D which is actually carried in the payload. My =
issue with this is that this is _not MPTCP-specific_. This is simply a =
signal above the transport layer to inform a proxy what the real =
destination is.

Regards,
Alan


--Apple-Mail=_2A38FF38-5C73-4A1C-AB53-4EBC4639E71F
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Wim, all,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Comment inline...</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
2 Aug 2016, at 20:11, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">On 02/08/16 15:52, "Alan Ford" =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&gt; =
wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m trying to =
distinguish the various use cases; can we confirm this is correct?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Transparent Mode<br class=3D"">- Source =
address =3D real source address<br class=3D""></blockquote><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt; not always since NAT can be in the =
path</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">- =
Destination address =3D real destination address<br class=3D"">- =
Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, adding and =
removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc<br class=3D"">- Latest =
proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is proxied=E2=80=9D =
so that a proxy can intercept it<br class=3D""></blockquote><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt; indeed or not intercept it based on the =
indication</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Plain Mode<br class=3D"">- Source address =3D real source<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">WH&gt; could also be NATed =
in some use cases</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">- Destination address =3D proxy destination address<br =
class=3D"">- Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination =
address<br class=3D""></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">WH&gt; or SRC =
address</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main =
difference is that Plain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas =
the transparent mode does not change src/dst addresses?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">WH&gt; the main difference =
is mainly DST IP is changed to get explicit routing to the proxy versus =
being implicit in the transparent case</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>OK, =
so my understanding appears correct here.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">The issue I see with a generic proxy bit is that it =
does not contain any context about what kind of proxy is being =
intercepted. You could be sending in good faith expecting it to be =
picked up by Proxy from Operator A, but in fact is picked up by Operator =
B.<br class=3D""></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">WH&gt; the network =
assisted proxy is mainly targeting single operator/controlled operator =
use cases to avoid these issues.</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain =
mode option is not MPTCP-specific and is simple a signal that says =
=E2=80=9Ceverything that follows is actually targeted for IP address =
a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is entirely transport-agnostic. If the HAG could =
know where to find a proxy (e.g. a well-known anycast address) then =
addresses could be rewritten and packets forwarded, with no need for any =
MPTCP protocol changes.<br class=3D""></blockquote><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt; you would still need to know the original =
destination IP@ that the application wanted to go =
to.</span></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>Which is the point of =
the signalling protocol - the proposed =E2=80=9Cplain mode option=E2=80=9D=
 which is actually carried in the payload. My issue with this is that =
this is _not MPTCP-specific_. This is simply a signal above the =
transport layer to inform a proxy what the real destination =
is.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Alan</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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Subject: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 2/5 - Reliability
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Hello,

As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
discuss the different contributions proposed
inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/

This is the part 2/5 : reliability.

In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR options can be attached to segments carrying data
or pure acknowledgements.
In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 addresses
and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will be often sent as pure
acknowledgements.
This implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which could be
problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allow the establishment of
additional subflows, as in load balancing scenarios. 
We propose to rely on the "E" (Echo) flag in the ADD_ADDR option.
This echo flag is used to acknolwedge a received ADD_ADDR by echoing it.
If the acknowledgement is not received, the ADD_ADDR option will be
retransmitted up to N times.

Fabien


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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 2/5 - Reliability
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I am neutral on the addition on this flag=E2=80=A6 We have spare bits, =
so could easily allocate this. But is it worth it? Although not =
explicitly written, I believe we had expected senders to send the =
ADD_ADDR option multiple times.

If the ADD_ADDR was not echoed, what would the sender do? Retransmit a =
few times I guess. I also guess it could learn that a path may not =
support duplicate ACKs with options.

It could be useful, but I do not feel strongly here=E2=80=A6 If this =
were an IETF room, I=E2=80=99d hum weakly ;-)

Regards,
Alan

> On 3 Aug 2016, at 16:47, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne =
<fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
> discuss the different contributions proposed
> inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
>=20
> This is the part 2/5 : reliability.
>=20
> In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR options can be attached to segments carrying data
> or pure acknowledgements.
> In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 addresses
> and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will be often sent as pure
> acknowledgements.
> This implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which could be
> problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allow the establishment =
of
> additional subflows, as in load balancing scenarios.=20
> We propose to rely on the "E" (Echo) flag in the ADD_ADDR option.
> This echo flag is used to acknolwedge a received ADD_ADDR by echoing =
it.
> If the acknowledgement is not received, the ADD_ADDR option will be
> retransmitted up to N times.
>=20
> Fabien
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 2/5 - Reliability
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On 03/08/2016 18:11, Alan Ford wrote:
> I am neutral on the addition on this flagâ€¦ We have spare bits, so could easily allocate this. But is it worth it? Although not explicitly written, I believe we had expected senders to send the ADD_ADDR option multiple times.
The idea here is, with the load balancing in mind, we *really* want the
ADD_ADDR to be delivered, and sending it multiple times doesn't really
guarantee that it will be delivered.
> If the ADD_ADDR was not echoed, what would the sender do? Retransmit a few times I guess. I also guess it could learn that a path may not support duplicate ACKs with options.
Retransmit it a few times, and if not echoed, we could know that it
hasn't been delivred.
Because there's the case where the ADD_ADDR is received but the client
doesn't elect to open a subflow on this address.
With the echo bit, if such thing happen basically you would know "ok, he
received my add_addr but doesn't want to establish a subflow for now",
otherwise you won't be able to tell the difference between a lost
ADD_ADDR and this case.

I agree with the dupacks with options.

>
> It could be useful, but I do not feel strongly hereâ€¦ If this were an IETF room, Iâ€™d hum weakly ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>> On 3 Aug 2016, at 16:47, Fabien DuchĂŞne <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
>> discuss the different contributions proposed
>> inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
>>
>> This is the part 2/5 : reliability.
>>
>> In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR options can be attached to segments carrying data
>> or pure acknowledgements.
>> In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 addresses
>> and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will be often sent as pure
>> acknowledgements.
>> This implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which could be
>> problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allow the establishment of
>> additional subflows, as in load balancing scenarios. 
>> We propose to rely on the "E" (Echo) flag in the ADD_ADDR option.
>> This echo flag is used to acknolwedge a received ADD_ADDR by echoing it.
>> If the acknowledgement is not received, the ADD_ADDR option will be
>> retransmitted up to N times.
>>
>> Fabien
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> multipathtcp mailing list
>> multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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--_000_FCC775C9EA484E7DA48D3059C255569Anokiacom_--


From nobody Wed Aug  3 14:01:40 2016
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Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 23:01:30 +0200
Message-ID: <87h9b1wor9.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr>
From: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 2/5 - Reliability
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> I am neutral on the addition on this flagâ€¦ We have spare bits, so could
> easily allocate this. But is it worth it?

I haven't read the draft.  But it looks to my uneducated eyes that adding
this flag carries little additional implementation complexity, so even if
it turns out to be useless it won't harm much.  On the other hand, should
it turn out to be useful at a later date, it will be difficult to add in
a backwards compatible manner.

Can somebody who has implemented this flag confirm that it's easy to
implement, and that there are no hidden gotchas?

-- Juliusz


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> On Aug 3, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com> wrote:
>=20
> Alan, in-line
>=20
> From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>
> Date: Wednesday 3 August 2016 at 09:20
> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com =
<mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>>
> Cc: Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com <mailto:rao.shoaib@oracle.com>>, =
"multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>" =
<multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended =
proxy
>=20
> Hi Wim, all,
>=20
> Comment inline...
>=20
>> On 2 Aug 2016, at 20:11, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com <mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>> wrote:
>> On 02/08/16 15:52, "Alan Ford" <alan.ford@gmail.com =
<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> I=E2=80=99m trying to distinguish the various use cases; can we =
confirm this is correct?
>>>=20
>>> Transparent Mode
>>> - Source address =3D real source address
>> WH> not always since NAT can be in the path
>>> - Destination address =3D real destination address
>>> - Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, =
adding and removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc
>>> - Latest proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is =
proxied=E2=80=9D so that a proxy can intercept it
>> WH> indeed or not intercept it based on the indication
>>>=20
>>> Plain Mode
>>> - Source address =3D real source
>> WH> could also be NATed in some use cases
>>> - Destination address =3D proxy destination address
>>> - Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination address
>> WH> or SRC address
>>>=20
>>> So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main difference is =
that Plain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas the =
transparent mode does not change src/dst addresses?
>> WH> the main difference is mainly DST IP is changed to get explicit =
routing to the proxy versus being implicit in the transparent case
>=20
> OK, so my understanding appears correct here.
> WH> yes
>=20
>>> The issue I see with a generic proxy bit is that it does not contain =
any context about what kind of proxy is being intercepted. You could be =
sending in good faith expecting it to be picked up by Proxy from =
Operator A, but in fact is picked up by Operator B.
>> WH> the network assisted proxy is mainly targeting single =
operator/controlled operator use cases to avoid these issues.
>>>=20
>>> As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not =
MPTCP-specific and is simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that =
follows is actually targeted for IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is =
entirely transport-agnostic. If the HAG could know where to find a proxy =
(e.g. a well-known anycast address) then addresses could be rewritten =
and packets forwarded, with no need for any MPTCP protocol changes.
>> WH> you would still need to know the original destination IP@ that =
the application wanted to go to.
>=20
> Which is the point of the signalling protocol - the proposed =E2=80=9Cpl=
ain mode option=E2=80=9D which is actually carried in the payload. My =
issue with this is that this is _not MPTCP-specific_. This is simply a =
signal above the transport layer to inform a proxy what the real =
destination is.
>=20
> WH> I hear, you and I understand but we have an explicit use case for =
this with MPTCP and so far not in any other protocol. Hence I think it =
is good to extend MPTCP with this capability and liase with other WG(s) =
about this.

While you may have a use-case for having proxies work with your MPTCP =
solution, it does not directly follow that the MPTCP protocol or WG is =
the best place to specify how the proxy works. This really does seem =
like a proxy solution that can be made more generic, and at the very =
least belongs as a protocol that is run within the MPTCP stream. This is =
what the SOCKS protocol does, and there is no reason you can't run SOCKS =
over MPTCP, or create a new variant of SOCKS or a similar protocol that =
you will run on top of MPTCP for your solution. Indeed, it could be seen =
as a benefit to work on the proxying solution independently from MPTCP, =
since that way it can be used for other transports. The end result will =
be the same, and the architecture will be cleaner.

Best,
Tommy Pauly

>=20
> Regards,
> Alan
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D"">

<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Alan, in-line</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_SIGNATURE" class=3D""></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 12pt; text-align: left; =
border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">From: </span>Alan Ford =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Date: </span>Wednesday 3 =
August 2016 at 09:20<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">To: </span>Wim Henderickx =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Cc: </span>Rao Shoaib &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rao.shoaib@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">rao.shoaib@oracle.com</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Subject: </span>Re: =
[multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy<br =
class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
Hi Wim, all,
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Comment inline...</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 2 Aug 2016, at 20:11, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">On
 02/08/16 15:52, "Alan Ford" &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&gt;
 wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
I=E2=80=99m trying to distinguish the various use cases; can we confirm =
this is correct?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Transparent Mode<br class=3D"">
- Source address =3D real source address<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 not always since NAT can be in the path</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
- Destination address =3D real destination address<br class=3D"">
- Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, adding =
and removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc<br class=3D"">
- Latest proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is =
proxied=E2=80=9D so that a proxy can intercept it<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 indeed or not intercept it based on the indication</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Plain Mode<br class=3D"">
- Source address =3D real source<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 could also be NATed in some use cases</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
- Destination address =3D proxy destination address<br class=3D"">
- Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination address<br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 or SRC address</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main difference is =
that Plain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas the =
transparent mode does not change src/dst addresses?<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 the main difference is mainly DST IP is changed to get explicit routing =
to the proxy versus being implicit in the transparent case</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">OK, so my understanding appears correct here.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; yes</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
The issue I see with a generic proxy bit is that it does not contain any =
context about what kind of proxy is being intercepted. You could be =
sending in good faith expecting it to be picked up by Proxy from =
Operator A, but in fact is picked up by Operator B.<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 the network assisted proxy is mainly targeting single =
operator/controlled operator use cases to avoid these issues.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not MPTCP-specific =
and is simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that follows is =
actually targeted for IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is entirely =
transport-agnostic. If the HAG could know where to find a proxy (e.g.
 a well-known anycast address) then addresses could be rewritten and =
packets forwarded, with no need for any MPTCP protocol changes.<br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 you would still need to know the original destination IP@ that the =
application wanted to go to.</span></blockquote>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Which is the point of the signalling protocol - the =
proposed =E2=80=9Cplain mode option=E2=80=9D which is actually carried =
in the payload. My issue with this is that this is _not MPTCP-specific_. =
This is simply a signal above the transport layer to inform a proxy what
 the real destination is.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; I hear, you and I understand but we have an =
explicit use case for this with MPTCP and so far not in any other =
protocol. Hence I think it is good to extend MPTCP with this capability =
and liase with other WG(s) about =
this.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>While =
you may have a use-case for having proxies work with your MPTCP =
solution, it does not directly follow that the MPTCP protocol or WG is =
the best place to specify how the proxy works. This really does seem =
like a proxy solution that can be made more generic, and at the very =
least belongs as a protocol that is run within the MPTCP stream. This is =
what the SOCKS protocol does, and there is no reason you can't run SOCKS =
over MPTCP, or create a new variant of SOCKS or a similar protocol that =
you will run on top of MPTCP for your solution. Indeed, it could be seen =
as a benefit to work on the proxying solution independently from MPTCP, =
since that way it can be used for other transports. The end result will =
be the same, and the architecture will be cleaner.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Best,</div><div>Tommy Pauly</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Regards,</div>
<div class=3D"">Alan</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">multipathtcp=
 mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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Cc: MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 2/5 - Reliability
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> On Aug 3, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne =
<fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
> discuss the different contributions proposed
> inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
>=20
> This is the part 2/5 : reliability.
>=20
> In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR options can be attached to segments carrying data
> or pure acknowledgements.
> In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 addresses
> and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will be often sent as pure
> acknowledgements.
> This implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which could be
> problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allow the establishment =
of
> additional subflows, as in load balancing scenarios.=20
> We propose to rely on the "E" (Echo) flag in the ADD_ADDR option.
> This echo flag is used to acknolwedge a received ADD_ADDR by echoing =
it.
> If the acknowledgement is not received, the ADD_ADDR option will be
> retransmitted up to N times.

I support the addition of the E-flag. Especially, as it improves =
reliability if one chooses to do the load-balancer deployment as =
described.


Christoph

>=20
> Fabien
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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Cc: MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 1/5 - Load Balancing
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> On Jul 28, 2016, at 5:18 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne =
<fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
> discuss the different contributions proposed
> inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
>=20
> To allow Multipath TCP to operate for servers residing behind =
unmodified
> layer 4 load balancers we propose to define the "B" flag in the
> MP_CAPABLE option.
>=20
> This flag can only be used during the three-way handshake. When this
> flag is set, it indicates that the source IP address of the segment
> containing this flag does not accept the establishment of additional
> subflows for this connection. Otherwise, the source IP address of this
> segment can be used as destination address to create additional =
subflows.
>=20
> There are two use cases for this flag :
>=20
> - servers behind a load balancer can use this flag in the SYN+ACK to
> indicate that the IP address of the load balancer should not be used =
to
> establish subflows. Those servers will typically announce one or more
> other addresses with the ADD_ADDR option.
> - clients behind firewalls or NAT can use this flag in the SYN. If set
> in the SYN, the flag MUST also be set in the third ACK to support
> stateless servers.
>=20
> We would appreciate your feedback on this proposition.

I also support the addition of the B-flag.


Christoph


>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Fabien
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


From nobody Wed Aug  3 21:14:42 2016
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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--_000_F6D0E7864CFC44F08B221A3376D92D44nokiacom_--


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Cc: MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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--Boundary_(ID_oE/jTsJWtD5rsuNOeetdkw)
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Hello,

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 9:14 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com> wrote:
> From: <tpauly@apple.com <mailto:tpauly@apple.com>> on behalf of Tommy =
Pauly <tpauly@apple.com <mailto:tpauly@apple.com>>
> Date: Thursday 4 August 2016 at 02:10
> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com =
<mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>>
> Cc: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>, =
"multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>" =
<multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended =
proxy
>=20
>=20
>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com <mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Alan, in-line
>>=20
>> From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>
>> Date: Wednesday 3 August 2016 at 09:20
>> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com =
<mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>>
>> Cc: Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com =
<mailto:rao.shoaib@oracle.com>>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>" <multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on =
two-ended proxy
>>=20
>> Hi Wim, all,
>>=20
>> Comment inline...
>>=20
>>> On 2 Aug 2016, at 20:11, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com <mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>> wrote:
>>> On 02/08/16 15:52, "Alan Ford" <alan.ford@gmail.com =
<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> I=E2=80=99m trying to distinguish the various use cases; can we =
confirm this is correct?
>>>>=20
>>>> Transparent Mode
>>>> - Source address =3D real source address
>>> WH> not always since NAT can be in the path
>>>> - Destination address =3D real destination address
>>>> - Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, =
adding and removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc
>>>> - Latest proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is =
proxied=E2=80=9D so that a proxy can intercept it
>>> WH> indeed or not intercept it based on the indication
>>>>=20
>>>> Plain Mode
>>>> - Source address =3D real source
>>> WH> could also be NATed in some use cases
>>>> - Destination address =3D proxy destination address
>>>> - Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination address
>>> WH> or SRC address
>>>>=20
>>>> So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main difference =
is that Plain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas the =
transparent mode does not change src/dst addresses?
>>> WH> the main difference is mainly DST IP is changed to get explicit =
routing to the proxy versus being implicit in the transparent case
>>=20
>> OK, so my understanding appears correct here.
>> WH> yes
>>=20
>>>> The issue I see with a generic proxy bit is that it does not =
contain any context about what kind of proxy is being intercepted. You =
could be sending in good faith expecting it to be picked up by Proxy =
from Operator A, but in fact is picked up by Operator B.
>>> WH> the network assisted proxy is mainly targeting single =
operator/controlled operator use cases to avoid these issues.
>>>>=20
>>>> As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not =
MPTCP-specific and is simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that =
follows is actually targeted for IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is =
entirely transport-agnostic. If the HAG could know where to find a proxy =
(e.g. a well-known anycast address) then addresses could be rewritten =
and packets forwarded, with no need for any MPTCP protocol changes.
>>> WH> you would still need to know the original destination IP@ that =
the application wanted to go to.
>>=20
>> Which is the point of the signalling protocol - the proposed =E2=80=9Cp=
lain mode option=E2=80=9D which is actually carried in the payload. My =
issue with this is that this is _not MPTCP-specific_. This is simply a =
signal above the transport layer to inform a proxy what the real =
destination is.
>>=20
>> WH> I hear, you and I understand but we have an explicit use case for =
this with MPTCP and so far not in any other protocol. Hence I think it =
is good to extend MPTCP with this capability and liase with other WG(s) =
about this.
>=20
> While you may have a use-case for having proxies work with your MPTCP =
solution, it does not directly follow that the MPTCP protocol or WG is =
the best place to specify how the proxy works. This really does seem =
like a proxy solution that can be made more generic, and at the very =
least belongs as a protocol that is run within the MPTCP stream. This is =
what the SOCKS protocol does, and there is no reason you can't run SOCKS =
over MPTCP, or create a new variant of SOCKS or a similar protocol that =
you will run on top of MPTCP for your solution. Indeed, it could be seen =
as a benefit to work on the proxying solution independently from MPTCP, =
since that way it can be used for other transports. The end result will =
be the same, and the architecture will be cleaner.
>=20
> WH> given the extension is specific in TCP?MPTCP since we carry the =
information in a SYN packet it becomes specific to the protocol and =
hence I still believe it fits.

The information is actually carried in the payload. So, it is not really =
part of TCP/MPTCP. Carrying it in the SYN is just because TCP does not =
prevent carrying data in the SYN-segment.

> Other transport mechanisms have other means and can adopt a similar =
information element but the way the protocol consumes it is specific and =
should be done in the protocol afais.

I disagree that the information is consumed by MPTCP. It is rather =
consumed by the application sitting right on top of MPTCP, because this =
is the one that is reading the data out of the MPTCP-stream and =
forwarding it over to final destination. And MPTCP itself is not really =
using the plain-mode option.

If you look at Socks v4, it is actually carrying the exact same =
information than the plain-mode option (besides the protocol-field). So, =
an implementation could easily put the Socks-client request in the =
SYN-payload. The proxy who receives that can then (after connecting to =
the final server) reply in the SYN/ACK with the Socks-server option in =
the SYN/ACK's payload. And from there on, the data will be forwarded =
from one side to the other.

This would be a low-overhead handshake for the proxy without the chatty =
overhead of Socks v5.


Cheers,
Christoph



--Boundary_(ID_oE/jTsJWtD5rsuNOeetdkw)
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hello,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2016, at 9:14 PM, =
Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D""><div style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri; font-size: 12pt; text-align: left; border-width: 1pt medium =
medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">From: </span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" class=3D"">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt; on =
behalf of Tommy Pauly &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" =
class=3D"">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Date: </span>Thursday 4 =
August 2016 at 02:10<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">To: </span>Wim Henderickx =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Cc: </span>Alan Ford &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Subject: </span>Re: =
[multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy<br =
class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - =
BE) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Alan, in-line</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div id=3D"" class=3D""></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 12pt; text-align: left; =
border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">From: </span>Alan Ford =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Date: </span>Wednesday 3 =
August 2016 at 09:20<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">To: </span>Wim Henderickx =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Cc: </span>Rao Shoaib &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rao.shoaib@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">rao.shoaib@oracle.com</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Subject: </span>Re: =
[multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy<br =
class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
Hi Wim, all,
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Comment inline...</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 2 Aug 2016, at 20:11, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">On
 02/08/16 15:52, "Alan Ford" &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&gt;
 wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
I=E2=80=99m trying to distinguish the various use cases; can we confirm =
this is correct?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Transparent Mode<br class=3D"">
- Source address =3D real source address<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 not always since NAT can be in the path</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
- Destination address =3D real destination address<br class=3D"">
- Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, adding =
and removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc<br class=3D"">
- Latest proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is =
proxied=E2=80=9D so that a proxy can intercept it<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 indeed or not intercept it based on the indication</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Plain Mode<br class=3D"">
- Source address =3D real source<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 could also be NATed in some use cases</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
- Destination address =3D proxy destination address<br class=3D"">
- Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination address<br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 or SRC address</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main difference is =
that Plain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas the =
transparent mode does not change src/dst addresses?<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 the main difference is mainly DST IP is changed to get explicit routing =
to the proxy versus being implicit in the transparent case</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">OK, so my understanding appears correct here.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; yes</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
The issue I see with a generic proxy bit is that it does not contain any =
context about what kind of proxy is being intercepted. You could be =
sending in good faith expecting it to be picked up by Proxy from =
Operator A, but in fact is picked up by Operator B.<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 the network assisted proxy is mainly targeting single =
operator/controlled operator use cases to avoid these issues.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not MPTCP-specific =
and is simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that follows is =
actually targeted for IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is entirely =
transport-agnostic. If the HAG could know where to find a proxy (e.g.
 a well-known anycast address) then addresses could be rewritten and =
packets forwarded, with no need for any MPTCP protocol changes.<br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 you would still need to know the original destination IP@ that the =
application wanted to go to.</span></blockquote>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Which is the point of the signalling protocol - the =
proposed =E2=80=9Cplain mode option=E2=80=9D which is actually carried =
in the payload. My issue with this is that this is _not MPTCP-specific_. =
This is simply a signal above the transport layer to inform a proxy
 what the real destination is.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; I hear, you and I understand but we have an =
explicit use case for this with MPTCP and so far not in any other =
protocol. Hence I think it is good to extend MPTCP with this capability =
and liase with other WG(s) about this.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">While you may have a use-case for having proxies work =
with your MPTCP solution, it does not directly follow that the MPTCP =
protocol or WG is the best place to specify how the proxy works. This =
really does seem like a proxy solution that can be made more
 generic, and at the very least belongs as a protocol that is run within =
the MPTCP stream. This is what the SOCKS protocol does, and there is no =
reason you can't run SOCKS over MPTCP, or create a new variant of SOCKS =
or a similar protocol that you will run
 on top of MPTCP for your solution. Indeed, it could be seen as a =
benefit to work on the proxying solution independently from MPTCP, since =
that way it can be used for other transports. The end result will be the =
same, and the architecture will be cleaner.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; given the extension is specific in TCP?MPTCP =
since we carry the information in a SYN packet it becomes specific to =
the protocol and hence I still believe it =
fits.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The =
information is actually carried in the payload. So, it is not really =
part of TCP/MPTCP. Carrying it in the SYN is just because TCP does not =
prevent carrying data in the SYN-segment.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""> Other transport mechanisms have other means =
and can adopt a similar information element
 but the way the protocol consumes it is specific and should be done in =
the protocol afais.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I disagree that the information is consumed by =
MPTCP. It is rather consumed by the application sitting right on top of =
MPTCP, because this is the one that is reading the data out of the =
MPTCP-stream and forwarding it over to final destination. And MPTCP =
itself is not really using the plain-mode option.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If you look at Socks v4, it is actually carrying =
the exact same information than the plain-mode option (besides the =
protocol-field). So, an implementation could easily put the Socks-client =
request in the SYN-payload. The proxy who receives that can then (after =
connecting to the final server) reply in the SYN/ACK with the =
Socks-server option in the SYN/ACK's payload. And from there on, the =
data will be forwarded from one side to the other.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>This would be a low-overhead handshake for the =
proxy without the chatty overhead of Socks v5.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Christoph</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Boundary_(ID_oE/jTsJWtD5rsuNOeetdkw)--


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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>, "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>, "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 06:22:34 +0000
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References: <b779dd12f1bb412c96c800eddaaf0247@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <e2aa6ac517194af4b8c25c07f8e469fb@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <9cafc779-502e-cc7f-676c-f6659e207c81@uclouvain.be> <3100ff74-0c7d-1815-03a1-aa4cec36d1e4@oracle.com> <3D8D4118-39CA-46A6-BFBD-026376C02058@nokia.com> <811b2c78-0976-6994-d759-8cac5fa58864@oracle.com> <0084773F-53E5-41A4-A244-430DAF12322A@nokia.com> <E0278B51-F3D8-4762-B597-41959E7BCF12@gmail.com> <08A92759-0446-440B-A76E-2E89518E1336@nokia.com> <F9F23B1F-D802-4971-857F-4BF455EDCF5D@gmail.com> <FCC775C9-EA48-4E7D-A48D-3059C255569A@nokia.com> <4221AE86-54DA-4177-91B5-D1A03C101F71@apple.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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From: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 23:36:26 -0700
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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Fabien_Duch=C3=AAne?= <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
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Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 2/5 - Reliability
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Hi Fabien,

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne <fabien.duchene@uclouva=
in.be>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
> discuss the different contributions proposed
> inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
>
> This is the part 2/5 : reliability.
>
> In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR options can be attached to segments carrying data
> or pure acknowledgements.
> In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 addresses
> and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will be often sent as pure
> acknowledgements.
> This implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which could be
> problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allow the establishment of
> additional subflows, as in load balancing scenarios.
> We propose to rely on the "E" (Echo) flag in the ADD_ADDR option.
> This echo flag is used to acknolwedge a received ADD_ADDR by echoing it.
> If the acknowledgement is not received, the ADD_ADDR option will be
> retransmitted up to N times.
>

I have several comments on this. Please let me know if I miss something.

1=EF=BC=9A Do we really need ADD_ADDR reliability in all cases? An end node=
 might
want to send ADD_ADDR for 'just in case' rather than for "I want you to use
this"
BTW, I'm not sure if the draft tries to replace the current ADD_ADDR or to
propose an additional ADD_ADDR option.

2: The sender cannot be sure whether the info in ADD_ADDR will be used or
not. It depends on the peer's decision.
I might prefer re-transmitting ADD_ADDR up to N times when the sender
doesn't receive MP_JOIN to the address for a certain amount of time.

3: "the receiving host MUST return the exact option.." Although it is MUST,
can we always do this? There might be a situation where there is no option
space or no segment to send.

Thanks,
--
Yoshi

--001a114bd45c59d94b0539392b21
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Fabien,<div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be" target=3D"_b=
lank">fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;b=
order-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>Hello,<br>
<br>
As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I&#39;m sending a series of emails to<br=
>
discuss the different contributions proposed<br>
inhttps://<a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-ad=
d-addr/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/</a><br>
<br>
This is the part 2/5 : reliability.<br>
<br>
In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR options can be attached to segments carrying data<br>
or pure acknowledgements.<br>
In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 addresses<br>
and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will be often sent as pure<br>
acknowledgements.<br>
This implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which could be<br>
problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allow the establishment of<br>
additional subflows, as in load balancing scenarios.<br>
We propose to rely on the &quot;E&quot; (Echo) flag in the ADD_ADDR option.=
<br>
This echo flag is used to acknolwedge a received ADD_ADDR by echoing it.<br=
>
If the acknowledgement is not received, the ADD_ADDR option will be<br>
retransmitted up to N times.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have sev=
eral comments on this. Please let me know if I miss something.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>1=EF=BC=9A Do we really need ADD_ADDR reliability in all cases=
? An end node might want to send ADD_ADDR for &#39;just in case&#39; rather=
 than for &quot;I want you to use this&quot;=C2=A0</div><div>BTW, I&#39;m n=
ot sure if the draft tries to replace the current ADD_ADDR or to propose an=
 additional ADD_ADDR option.</div><div><br></div><div>2: The sender cannot =
be sure whether the info in ADD_ADDR will be used or not. It depends on the=
 peer&#39;s decision. =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>I might prefer re-transmitting=
 ADD_ADDR up to N times when the sender doesn&#39;t receive MP_JOIN to the =
address for a certain amount of time.</div><div><br></div>3: &quot;the rece=
iving host MUST return the exact option..&quot; Although it is MUST, can we=
 always do this? There might be a situation where there is no option space =
or no segment to send. =C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></di=
v><div>Thanks,</div><div>--</div><div>Yoshi</div><div><br></div></div></div=
></div></div>

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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 2/5 - Reliability
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Hi Yoshi,

Inline=E2=80=A6

> On 4 Aug 2016, at 07:36, Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Fabien,
>=20
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne =
<fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be <mailto:fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>> =
wrote:
> Hello,
>=20
> As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
> discuss the different contributions proposed
> inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/>
>=20
> This is the part 2/5 : reliability.
>=20
> In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR options can be attached to segments carrying data
> or pure acknowledgements.
> In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 addresses
> and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will be often sent as pure
> acknowledgements.
> This implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which could be
> problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allow the establishment =
of
> additional subflows, as in load balancing scenarios.
> We propose to rely on the "E" (Echo) flag in the ADD_ADDR option.
> This echo flag is used to acknolwedge a received ADD_ADDR by echoing =
it.
> If the acknowledgement is not received, the ADD_ADDR option will be
> retransmitted up to N times.
>=20
> I have several comments on this. Please let me know if I miss =
something.
>=20
> 1=EF=BC=9A Do we really need ADD_ADDR reliability in all cases? An end =
node might want to send ADD_ADDR for 'just in case' rather than for "I =
want you to use this"=20
> BTW, I'm not sure if the draft tries to replace the current ADD_ADDR =
or to propose an additional ADD_ADDR option.

The argument is that by making it reliable, you only need to send it =
once to know it=E2=80=99s been received, even if the far end does not =
use it.

>=20
> 2: The sender cannot be sure whether the info in ADD_ADDR will be used =
or not. It depends on the peer's decision.  =20
> I might prefer re-transmitting ADD_ADDR up to N times when the sender =
doesn't receive MP_JOIN to the address for a certain amount of time.
>=20

As above, by making it reliable you only need to send it once to know =
it=E2=80=99s been received, even if the far end chooses not to use it.

I think I=E2=80=99m sold on this idea now, given the additional recent =
comments. I support this.

> 3: "the receiving host MUST return the exact option.." Although it is =
MUST, can we always do this? There might be a situation where there is =
no option space or no segment to send. =20

I would assume the same rules as ADD_ADDR are followed, so it=E2=80=99s =
sent on a duplicate ACK in that case.

Regards,
Alan


--Apple-Mail=_320D7422-0E3E-4DA6-81E5-57CF843C929B
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Yoshi,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Inline=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
4 Aug 2016, at 07:36, Yoshifumi Nishida &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp" =
class=3D"">nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Hi Fabien,<div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, =
Aug 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Hello,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending =
a series of emails to<br class=3D"">discuss the different contributions =
proposed<br class=3D"">inhttps://<a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">This is the part 2/5 : reliability.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR options can be attached =
to segments carrying data<br class=3D"">or pure acknowledgements.<br =
class=3D"">In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 =
addresses<br class=3D"">and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will =
be often sent as pure<br class=3D"">acknowledgements.<br class=3D"">This =
implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which could be<br =
class=3D"">problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allow the =
establishment of<br class=3D"">additional subflows, as in load balancing =
scenarios.<br class=3D"">We propose to rely on the "E" (Echo) flag in =
the ADD_ADDR option.<br class=3D"">This echo flag is used to acknolwedge =
a received ADD_ADDR by echoing it.<br class=3D"">If the acknowledgement =
is not received, the ADD_ADDR option will be<br class=3D"">retransmitted =
up to N times.<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I have several comments on this. Please =
let me know if I miss something.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1=EF=BC=9A Do we really need ADD_ADDR =
reliability in all cases? An end node might want to send ADD_ADDR for =
'just in case' rather than for "I want you to use this"&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">BTW, I'm not sure if the draft tries to replace the current =
ADD_ADDR or to propose an additional ADD_ADDR =
option.</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The argument is that by making it reliable, you =
only need to send it once to know it=E2=80=99s been received, even if =
the far end does not use it.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">2: The sender cannot be sure whether the info in ADD_ADDR =
will be used or not. It depends on the peer's decision. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">I might prefer re-transmitting =
ADD_ADDR up to N times when the sender doesn't receive MP_JOIN to the =
address for a certain amount of time.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>As above, by making it reliable you only need to =
send it once to know it=E2=80=99s been received, even if the far end =
chooses not to use it.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I think I=E2=80=
=99m sold on this idea now, given the additional recent comments. I =
support this.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">3: "the receiving host MUST return the exact =
option.." Although it is MUST, can we always do this? There might be a =
situation where there is no option space or no segment to send. =
&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I would assume the same rules as =
ADD_ADDR are followed, so it=E2=80=99s sent on a duplicate ACK in that =
case.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Regards,</div><div class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Hi Med,

> On 4 Aug 2016, at 06:53, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> =
<mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>=20
>> As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not =
MPTCP-specific and is
>> simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that follows is =
actually targeted
>> for IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is entirely =
transport-agnostic.
>=20
> [Med] The plain mode allows for example to distinguish between native =
and proxied MPTCP connection.=20
> I'm puzzled here since MPTCP allows to inform a remote peer about an =
IP address while this is not TCP-specific. Isn't that information =
transport-agnostic as per you argument? (not mine).

I don=E2=80=99t get this argument=E2=80=A6 You keep referring to =
=E2=80=9Cplain mode option=E2=80=9D but this is not - in the current =
draft - a MPTCP option, this is simply something in the payload.

Your MPTCP proxy leverages MPTCP in order to apply new IP addresses to =
an existing MPTCP connection, which is great, but does not require any =
protocol extensions to do this. The only additional information it needs =
is the target, in the initial subflow, and this is provided by =
information in the payload.

This information is carried in the payload, and does not carry any =
information which is specific to MPTCP.

To be clear on this - I am not opposed to doing this work, and indeed I =
would be entirely happy to see the charter clarified to support work on =
two-ended proxies. This is valuable work. But in this WG, this work =
should be to the limit of =E2=80=9Chow you could use MPTCP between two =
proxies=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 If you need a wire protocol defined which is =
not MPTCP-specific (which this does not appear to be), that work should =
be done somewhere like intarea or tsvarea and referenced by this work.

Regards,
Alan


--Apple-Mail=_1FA547F9-831B-428E-86DF-870F6B90F040
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Med,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 4 Aug 2016, at 06:53, &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is =
not MPTCP-specific and is<br class=3D"">simple a signal that says =
=E2=80=9Ceverything that follows is actually targeted<br class=3D"">for =
IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is entirely transport-agnostic.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">[Med] The plain mode allows for example to =
distinguish between native and proxied MPTCP connection.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I'm puzzled here =
since MPTCP allows to inform a remote peer about an IP address while =
this is not TCP-specific. Isn't that information transport-agnostic as =
per you argument? (not mine).</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=
 don=E2=80=99t get this argument=E2=80=A6 You keep referring to =E2=80=9Cp=
lain mode option=E2=80=9D but this is not - in the current draft - a =
MPTCP option, this is simply something in the payload.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Your MPTCP proxy =
leverages MPTCP in order to apply new IP addresses to an existing MPTCP =
connection, which is great, but does not require any protocol extensions =
to do this. The only additional information it needs is the target, in =
the initial subflow, and this is provided by information <i class=3D"">in =
the payload</i>.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This information is carried in the payload, and does not =
carry any information which is specific to MPTCP.</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To be clear on this - I am not opposed =
to doing this work, and indeed I would be entirely happy to see the =
charter clarified to support work on two-ended proxies. This is valuable =
work. But in this WG, this work should be to the limit of =E2=80=9Chow =
you could use MPTCP between two proxies=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 If you need a =
wire protocol defined which is not MPTCP-specific (which this does not =
appear to be), that work should be done somewhere like intarea or =
tsvarea and referenced by this work.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_1FA547F9-831B-428E-86DF-870F6B90F040--


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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Hi Med,

Inline...

> De : Alan Ford [mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com =
<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>]=20
> Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 4 ao=C3=BBt 2016 10:06
> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> Cc : Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE); multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended =
proxy
> =20
>=20
>  I don=E2=80=99t get this argument=E2=80=A6=20
> [Med] My point is about =E2=80=9Ctransport-agnostic=E2=80=9D part of =
your comment. One would argue that communication an IP address in a TCP =
option (which MPTCP is doing) is also =E2=80=9Ctransport-agnostic=E2=80=9D=
 but no one is objecting to define such (MP)TCP option.

No, it is not transport-agnostic, it is integral to how MPTCP operates.

> You keep referring to =E2=80=9Cplain mode option=E2=80=9D but this is =
not - in the current draft - a MPTCP option, this is simply something in =
the payload.
> [Med] The PM option is in the payload because of the limited option =
space. In early versions of the draft, the option can be inserted in the =
dedicated TCP option space if there is enough space, payload, etc. but =
we abandoned that design to simply the implementations.

But this information doesn=E2=80=99t need to be read or understood by a =
MPTCP stack!

It is telling the proxy application, which sits above MPTCP, where to =
forward the following payload data to.

This signal is a protocol which is not specific to MPTCP, and is in no =
way integrated with the rest of the MPTCP protocol.

The proxy application defers to the MPTCP stack (or interacts with it, =
for finer control) in order to set up new subflows. This is all standard =
MPTCP behaviour and does not require any additional signalling.

> Your MPTCP proxy leverages MPTCP in order to apply new IP addresses to =
an existing MPTCP connection, which is great, but does not require any =
protocol extensions to do this. The only additional information it needs =
is the target, in the initial subflow, and this is provided by =
information in the payload.
> [Med] It is in the payload because of the limited space and because of =
the lack of mature proposals to extend the SYN option space.
> =20
> This information is carried in the payload, and does not carry any =
information which is specific to MPTCP.
> [Med] It is specific to MPTCP as it allows, in addition to conveying a =
target/source IP address, to avoid interfering with native MPTCP =
connections. Also, the option allows to offload the MPTCP concentrator =
from the path if both endpoints are MPTCP-capable. All these aspects are =
specific to MPTCP. =20

I agree that something would be needed at a higher-layer for a true =
transparent proxy implementation, since it needs to know which traffic =
to intercept and which to let through. However, this does not =
necessarily need to be at the MPTCP layer. IP Router Alert Option is one =
alternative possibility here (RFCs 2113 / 2711) - given this is proposed =
for use in a controlled network, I would hope that deployment issues for =
RAO are not of such a concern here.

For plain mode where an explicit proxy address is given, there is no =
need for any network alert, since the packets will either be addressed =
to the proxy, or they won=E2=80=99t.

> To be clear on this - I am not opposed to doing this work, and indeed =
I would be entirely happy to see the charter clarified to support work =
on two-ended proxies. This is valuable work.
> [Med] Ok. Let=E2=80=99s then agree on the charter update.
> =20
> But in this WG, this work should be to the limit of =E2=80=9Chow you =
could use MPTCP between two proxies=E2=80=9D
> [Med] That should be part of the work, indeed. But there are other =
aspects that are important such as avoiding interfering with native =
MPTCP connections, offload an MPTCP proxy from the path if both =
endpoints are MPTCP-capable, avoid extra delays to establish network =
assisted MPTCP connections, etc. =20
> =20
> =E2=80=A6 If you need a wire protocol defined which is not =
MPTCP-specific (which this does not appear to be),
> [Med] I still disagree here. The proposal we have on the table is =
specific to MPTCP.

Your proposal uses MPTCP as a multipath transport, however the protocol =
you have specified for signalling target address is not an MPTCP =
extension, it is a separate protocol.

However, we are arguing over a non-existent proposal right now. At =
IETF96 it was said a combined draft would be issued which brought =
everything together. I await this with interest so we can see how this =
combined proposal fits with MPTCP.

Regards,
Alan


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Med,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Inline...</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Alan Ford [<a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>jeudi 4 ao=C3=BBt 2016 =
10:06<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">=C3=80&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>BOUCADAIR Mohamed =
IMT/OLN<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - =
BE);<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Objet&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [multipathtcp] towards =
a potential work item on two-ended proxy<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">I =
don=E2=80=99t get this argument=E2=80=A6</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] My point is about =
=E2=80=9Ctransport-agnostic=E2=80=9D part of your comment. One would =
argue that communication an IP address in a TCP option (which MPTCP is =
doing) is also =E2=80=9Ctransport-agnostic=E2=80=9D but no one is =
objecting to define such (MP)TCP =
option.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>No, it is not transport-agnostic, it is integral =
to how MPTCP operates.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none =
none solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding: =
0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">You keep =
referring to =E2=80=9Cplain mode option=E2=80=9D but this is not - in =
the current draft - a MPTCP option, this is simply something in the =
payload.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] The PM option is in the payload because =
of the limited option space. In early versions of the draft, the option =
can be inserted in the dedicated TCP option space if there is enough =
space, payload, etc. but we abandoned that design to simply the =
implementations.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>But this information doesn=E2=80=99t need to be =
read or understood by a MPTCP stack!</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>It is telling the proxy <i =
class=3D"">application</i>, which sits <i class=3D"">above</i>&nbsp;MPTCP,=
 where to forward the following payload data to.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>This signal is a protocol which is <i class=3D"">not=
 specific</i> to MPTCP, and is in no way integrated with the rest of the =
MPTCP protocol.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The proxy =
application defers to the MPTCP stack (or interacts with it, for finer =
control) in order to set up new subflows. This is all standard MPTCP =
behaviour and does not require any additional signalling.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Your MPTCP proxy leverages MPTCP in order =
to apply new IP addresses to an existing MPTCP connection, which is =
great, but does not require any protocol extensions to do this. The only =
additional information it needs is the target, in the initial subflow, =
and this is provided by information<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i class=3D"">in the =
payload</i>.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] It is in the payload because of the =
limited space and because of the lack of mature proposals to extend the =
SYN option space.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">This information is =
carried in the payload, and does not carry any information which is =
specific to MPTCP.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] It is specific to MPTCP as it allows, =
in addition to conveying a target/source IP address, to avoid =
interfering with native MPTCP connections. Also, the option allows to =
offload the MPTCP concentrator from the path if both endpoints are =
MPTCP-capable. All these aspects are specific to MPTCP. =
&nbsp;</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I agree that something would be needed at a =
higher-layer for a true transparent proxy implementation, since it needs =
to know which traffic to intercept and which to let through. However, =
this does not necessarily need to be at the MPTCP layer. IP Router Alert =
Option is one alternative possibility here (RFCs 2113 / 2711) - given =
this is proposed for use in a controlled network, I would hope that =
deployment issues for RAO are not of such a concern here.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>For plain mode where an explicit proxy address is =
given, there is no need for any network alert, since the packets will =
either be addressed to the proxy, or they won=E2=80=99t.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">To be clear on this - I am not opposed to =
doing this work, and indeed I would be entirely ha</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">ppy to see the charter clarified =
to support work on two-ended proxies. This is valuable =
work.</span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] Ok. Let=E2=80=99s then agree on the =
charter update.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">But in this WG, this work =
should be to the limit of =E2=80=9Chow you could use MPTCP between two =
proxies=E2=80=9D<span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] That should be part of the work, =
indeed. But there are other aspects that are important such as avoiding =
interfering with native MPTCP connections, offload an MPTCP proxy from =
the path if both endpoints are MPTCP-capable, avoid extra delays to =
establish network assisted MPTCP connections, etc. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">=E2=80=A6 If you need =
a wire protocol defined which is not MPTCP-specific (which this does not =
appear to be),<span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] I still disagree here. The proposal we =
have on the table is specific to =
MPTCP.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div>Your proposal uses MPTCP as a multipath =
transport, however the protocol you have specified for signalling target =
address is not an MPTCP extension, it is a separate =
protocol.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>However, we are arguing =
over a non-existent proposal right now. At IETF96 it was said a combined =
draft would be issued which brought everything together. I await this =
with interest so we can see how this combined proposal fits with =
MPTCP.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Alan</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 05:44:13 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Hello,

inline...

> On Aug 4, 2016, at 9:23 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com> wrote:
>=20
> In-line sorry was on the road yesterday
>=20
> From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com <mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>> =
on behalf of Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com =
<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>>
> Date: Thursday 4 August 2016 at 06:32
> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com =
<mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>>
> Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com <mailto:tpauly@apple.com>>, =
MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended =
proxy
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 9:14 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com <mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>> wrote:
>> From: <tpauly@apple.com <mailto:tpauly@apple.com>> on behalf of Tommy =
Pauly <tpauly@apple.com <mailto:tpauly@apple.com>>
>> Date: Thursday 4 August 2016 at 02:10
>> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com =
<mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>>
>> Cc: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>, =
"multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>" =
<multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on =
two-ended proxy
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com <mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Alan, in-line
>>>=20
>>> From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>
>>> Date: Wednesday 3 August 2016 at 09:20
>>> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com =
<mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>>
>>> Cc: Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com =
<mailto:rao.shoaib@oracle.com>>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>" <multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on =
two-ended proxy
>>>=20
>>> Hi Wim, all,
>>>=20
>>> Comment inline...
>>>=20
>>>> On 2 Aug 2016, at 20:11, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com <mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>> wrote:
>>>> On 02/08/16 15:52, "Alan Ford" <alan.ford@gmail.com =
<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> I=E2=80=99m trying to distinguish the various use cases; can we =
confirm this is correct?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Transparent Mode
>>>>> - Source address =3D real source address
>>>> WH> not always since NAT can be in the path
>>>>> - Destination address =3D real destination address
>>>>> - Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, =
adding and removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc
>>>>> - Latest proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is =
proxied=E2=80=9D so that a proxy can intercept it
>>>> WH> indeed or not intercept it based on the indication
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Plain Mode
>>>>> - Source address =3D real source
>>>> WH> could also be NATed in some use cases
>>>>> - Destination address =3D proxy destination address
>>>>> - Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination address
>>>> WH> or SRC address
>>>>>=20
>>>>> So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main difference =
is that Plain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas the =
transparent mode does not change src/dst addresses?
>>>> WH> the main difference is mainly DST IP is changed to get explicit =
routing to the proxy versus being implicit in the transparent case
>>>=20
>>> OK, so my understanding appears correct here.
>>> WH> yes
>>>=20
>>>>> The issue I see with a generic proxy bit is that it does not =
contain any context about what kind of proxy is being intercepted. You =
could be sending in good faith expecting it to be picked up by Proxy =
from Operator A, but in fact is picked up by Operator B.
>>>> WH> the network assisted proxy is mainly targeting single =
operator/controlled operator use cases to avoid these issues.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not =
MPTCP-specific and is simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that =
follows is actually targeted for IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is =
entirely transport-agnostic. If the HAG could know where to find a proxy =
(e.g. a well-known anycast address) then addresses could be rewritten =
and packets forwarded, with no need for any MPTCP protocol changes.
>>>> WH> you would still need to know the original destination IP@ that =
the application wanted to go to.
>>>=20
>>> Which is the point of the signalling protocol - the proposed =
=E2=80=9Cplain mode option=E2=80=9D which is actually carried in the =
payload. My issue with this is that this is _not MPTCP-specific_. This =
is simply a signal above the transport layer to inform a proxy what the =
real destination is.
>>>=20
>>> WH> I hear, you and I understand but we have an explicit use case =
for this with MPTCP and so far not in any other protocol. Hence I think =
it is good to extend MPTCP with this capability and liase with other =
WG(s) about this.
>>=20
>> While you may have a use-case for having proxies work with your MPTCP =
solution, it does not directly follow that the MPTCP protocol or WG is =
the best place to specify how the proxy works. This really does seem =
like a proxy solution that can be made more generic, and at the very =
least belongs as a protocol that is run within the MPTCP stream. This is =
what the SOCKS protocol does, and there is no reason you can't run SOCKS =
over MPTCP, or create a new variant of SOCKS or a similar protocol that =
you will run on top of MPTCP for your solution. Indeed, it could be seen =
as a benefit to work on the proxying solution independently from MPTCP, =
since that way it can be used for other transports. The end result will =
be the same, and the architecture will be cleaner.
>>=20
>> WH> given the extension is specific in TCP?MPTCP since we carry the =
information in a SYN packet it becomes specific to the protocol and =
hence I still believe it fits.
>=20
> The information is actually carried in the payload. So, it is not =
really part of TCP/MPTCP. Carrying it in the SYN is just because TCP =
does not prevent carrying data in the SYN-segment.
>=20
> WH> we added it in the payload due to limited option space available =
in TCP
>=20
>> Other transport mechanisms have other means and can adopt a similar =
information element but the way the protocol consumes it is specific and =
should be done in the protocol afais.
>=20
> I disagree that the information is consumed by MPTCP. It is rather =
consumed by the application sitting right on top of MPTCP, because this =
is the one that is reading the data out of the MPTCP-stream and =
forwarding it over to final destination. And MPTCP itself is not really =
using the plain-mode option.
>=20
> If you look at Socks v4, it is actually carrying the exact same =
information than the plain-mode option (besides the protocol-field). So, =
an implementation could easily put the Socks-client request in the =
SYN-payload. The proxy who receives that can then (after connecting to =
the final server) reply in the SYN/ACK with the Socks-server option in =
the SYN/ACK's payload. And from there on, the data will be forwarded =
from one side to the other.
>=20
> This would be a low-overhead handshake for the proxy without the =
chatty overhead of Socks v5.
>=20
> WH> Latency matters here and people already experienced that =
additional signaling messages with its roundtrip  degrades QoE. Even =
adding 2 message is not the right way to go and hence we want to add the =
informational elements in the messages in MPTCP.

I am 100% sure that the way I described it is not adding more latency =
compared to the current plain-mode option proposal. Can you please =
explain, how my suggestion "degrades QoE" (compared to the plain-mode =
option) ?

> As such we need to enhance the information elements in TCP/MPTCP =
protocol to indicate that there is some data available that needs to be =
consumed by the proxy to operate properly. You need to extend the =
protocol to provide this capability in my view.
> The addition of adding a sub flow in MPTCP also provides addressing =
information and we need similar information for the MPTCP proxy (do the =
proxy or not, src/dst info, etc).
> We carry the data in the SYN due to limited option space but we could =
carry it in the option data as well. As such it becomes TCP specific and =
we believe it is best to leverage on the TCP framework to extend  this =
capability.=20

Wrt. to "as such it becomes TCP specific" : Just because one arbitrarily =
puts some information in the TCP-option space does not make the =
information TCP-specific by design...



Let's put MPTCP aside for a moment.

Basically, the network that you are targeting has some characteristics =
that make a certain transport protocol more adapt for a certain leg of =
the end-to-end path. So, the goal is to enable the use of a special =
transport protocol over this leg of the network.
To do so, the byte-stream that is sent by the application from the =
client/server needs to be taken out of TCP and transmitted over this =
special transport protocol. Thus, the TCP-connection is being terminated =
at the CPE such that the byte-stream can be extracted out of TCP. This =
byte-stream is then sent over the specialized transport protocol to the =
concentrator on a specific port-number. The concentrator then terminates =
the special transport protocol so that it can extract the byte-stream =
out of it and sends the byte-stream to the final server over TCP.
Now, as the concentrator is not always on the IP-path between CPE and =
server, the CPE actually needs to use the destination IP-address of the =
concentrator in the segments that are using the specialized transport =
protocol. So, this is the "plain-mode" that you are addressing. To let =
the concentrator send the byte-stream to the final server, the CPE needs =
to tell to the concentrator which IP the server has. To do so, the CPE =
places this information in the payload of the first segment that it =
sends to the concentrator by using the specialized transport protocol. =
This is exactly what you are doing with the plain-mode option.


As you can see, in the above description of the hybrid access solution, =
there is nothing that is specific to MPTCP and nothing specific to the =
use of multiple interfaces or hybrid accesses. The sole use of the =
plain-mode option is to convey to the concentrator what the IP-address =
of the server is. Whether or not to do proxying is simply done by =
addressing the traffic to the concentrator by using a the proxy =
port-number.

So, standardizing this is probably useful. But should not be done as =
part of MPTCP, because the plain-mode option is orthogonal to MPTCP.


Cheers,
Christoph


--Boundary_(ID_J/4J07zHD7YmSOyKtRlsJA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hello,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">inline...</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 4, 2016, at 9:23 PM, =
Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D"">

<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">In-line sorry was on the road yesterday</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_SIGNATURE" class=3D""></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 12pt; text-align: left; =
border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">From: </span>Christoph =
Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" =
class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; on behalf of Christoph Paasch =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" =
class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Date: </span>Thursday 4 =
August 2016 at 06:32<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">To: </span>Wim Henderickx =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Cc: </span>Tommy Pauly =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" =
class=3D"">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;, MultiPath TCP - IETF WG &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Subject: </span>Re: =
[multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy<br =
class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
Hello,
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2016, at 9:14 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 12pt; text-align: left; =
border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">From: </span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" class=3D"">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt; on =
behalf of Tommy Pauly &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" =
class=3D"">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Date: </span>Thursday 4 =
August 2016 at 02:10<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">To: </span>Wim Henderickx =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Cc: </span>Alan Ford &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Subject: </span>Re: =
[multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy<br =
class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - =
BE) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Alan, in-line</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div id=3D"" class=3D""></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 12pt; text-align: left; =
border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">From: </span>Alan Ford =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Date: </span>Wednesday 3 =
August 2016 at 09:20<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">To: </span>Wim Henderickx =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Cc: </span>Rao Shoaib &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rao.shoaib@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">rao.shoaib@oracle.com</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Subject: </span>Re: =
[multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy<br =
class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
Hi Wim, all,
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Comment inline...</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 2 Aug 2016, at 20:11, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">On
 02/08/16 15:52, "Alan Ford" &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&gt;
 wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
I=E2=80=99m trying to distinguish the various use cases; can we confirm =
this is correct?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Transparent Mode<br class=3D"">
- Source address =3D real source address<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 not always since NAT can be in the path</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
- Destination address =3D real destination address<br class=3D"">
- Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, adding =
and removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc<br class=3D"">
- Latest proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is =
proxied=E2=80=9D so that a proxy can intercept it<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 indeed or not intercept it based on the indication</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Plain Mode<br class=3D"">
- Source address =3D real source<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 could also be NATed in some use cases</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
- Destination address =3D proxy destination address<br class=3D"">
- Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination address<br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 or SRC address</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main difference is =
that Plain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas the =
transparent mode does not change src/dst addresses?<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 the main difference is mainly DST IP is changed to get explicit routing =
to the proxy versus being implicit in the transparent case</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">OK, so my understanding appears correct here.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; yes</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
The issue I see with a generic proxy bit is that it does not contain any =
context about what kind of proxy is being intercepted. You could be =
sending in good faith expecting it to be picked up by Proxy from =
Operator A, but in fact is picked up by Operator B.<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 the network assisted proxy is mainly targeting single =
operator/controlled operator use cases to avoid these issues.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not MPTCP-specific =
and is simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that follows is =
actually targeted for IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is entirely =
transport-agnostic. If the HAG could know where to find a proxy (e.g.
 a well-known anycast address) then addresses could be rewritten and =
packets forwarded, with no need for any MPTCP protocol changes.<br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 you would still need to know the original destination IP@ that the =
application wanted to go to.</span></blockquote>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Which is the point of the signalling protocol - the =
proposed =E2=80=9Cplain mode option=E2=80=9D which is actually carried =
in the payload. My issue with this is that this is _not MPTCP-specific_. =
This is simply a signal above the transport layer to inform a proxy
 what the real destination is.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; I hear, you and I understand but we have an =
explicit use case for this with MPTCP and so far not in any other =
protocol. Hence I think it is good to extend MPTCP with this capability =
and liase with other WG(s) about this.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">While you may have a use-case for having proxies work =
with your MPTCP solution, it does not directly follow that the MPTCP =
protocol or WG is the best place to specify how the proxy works. This =
really does seem like a proxy solution that can be
 made more generic, and at the very least belongs as a protocol that is =
run within the MPTCP stream. This is what the SOCKS protocol does, and =
there is no reason you can't run SOCKS over MPTCP, or create a new =
variant of SOCKS or a similar protocol that you
 will run on top of MPTCP for your solution. Indeed, it could be seen as =
a benefit to work on the proxying solution independently from MPTCP, =
since that way it can be used for other transports. The end result will =
be the same, and the architecture will be cleaner.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; given the extension is specific in TCP?MPTCP =
since we carry the information in a SYN packet it becomes specific to =
the protocol and hence I still believe it fits.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">The information is actually carried in the payload. So, =
it is not really part of TCP/MPTCP. Carrying it in the SYN is just =
because TCP does not prevent carrying data in the SYN-segment.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; we added it in the payload due to limited option =
space available in TCP</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Other transport mechanisms have other means and can =
adopt a similar information element but the way the protocol consumes it =
is specific and should be done in the protocol afais.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I disagree that the information is consumed by MPTCP. It =
is rather consumed by the application sitting right on top of MPTCP, =
because this is the one that is reading the data out of the MPTCP-stream =
and forwarding it over to final destination. And MPTCP
 itself is not really using the plain-mode option.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">If you look at Socks v4, it is actually carrying the =
exact same information than the plain-mode option (besides the =
protocol-field). So, an implementation could easily put the Socks-client =
request in the SYN-payload. The proxy who receives that can then
 (after connecting to the final server) reply in the SYN/ACK with the =
Socks-server option in the SYN/ACK's payload. And from there on, the =
data will be forwarded from one side to the other.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">This would be a low-overhead handshake for the proxy =
without the chatty overhead of Socks v5.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; Latency matters here and people already =
experienced that additional signaling messages with its roundtrip =
&nbsp;degrades QoE. Even adding 2 message is not the right way to go and =
hence we want to add the informational elements in the messages in =
MPTCP.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I am =
100% sure that the way I described it is not adding more latency =
compared to the current plain-mode option proposal. Can you please =
explain, how my suggestion "degrades QoE" (compared to the plain-mode =
option) ?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">
 As such we need to enhance the information elements in TCP/MPTCP =
protocol to indicate that there is some data available that needs to be =
consumed by the proxy to operate properly. You need to extend the =
protocol to provide this capability in my =
view.</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""> The addition
 of adding a sub flow in MPTCP also provides addressing information and =
we need similar information for the MPTCP proxy (do the proxy or not, =
src/dst info, etc).</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">We carry the data in the SYN due to limited =
option space but we could carry it in the option data
 as well. As such it becomes TCP specific and we believe it is best to =
leverage on the TCP framework to extend &nbsp;this =
capability.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Wrt. to&nbsp;<i class=3D"">"as such it becomes TCP =
specific"&nbsp;</i>: Just because one arbitrarily puts some information =
in the TCP-option space does not make the information TCP-specific by =
design...</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Let's put MPTCP aside =
for a moment.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Basically, the network =
that you are targeting has some characteristics that make a certain =
transport protocol more adapt for a certain leg of the end-to-end path. =
So, the goal is to enable the use of a special transport protocol over =
this leg of the network.</div><div>To do so, the byte-stream that is =
sent by the application from the client/server needs to be taken out of =
TCP and transmitted over this special transport protocol. Thus, the =
TCP-connection is being terminated at the CPE such that the byte-stream =
can be extracted out of TCP. This byte-stream is then sent over the =
specialized transport protocol to the concentrator on a specific =
port-number. The concentrator then terminates the special transport =
protocol so that it can extract the byte-stream out of it and sends the =
byte-stream to the final server over TCP.</div><div>Now, as the =
concentrator is not always on the IP-path between CPE and server, the =
CPE actually needs to use the destination IP-address of the concentrator =
in the segments that are using the specialized transport protocol. So, =
this is the "plain-mode" that you are addressing. To let the =
concentrator send the byte-stream to the final server, the CPE needs to =
tell to the concentrator which IP the server has. To do so, the CPE =
places this information in the payload of the first segment that it =
sends to the concentrator by using the specialized transport protocol. =
This is exactly what you are doing with the plain-mode =
option.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>As =
you can see, in the above description of the hybrid access solution, =
there is nothing that is specific to MPTCP and nothing specific to the =
use of multiple interfaces or hybrid accesses. The sole use of the =
plain-mode option is to convey to the concentrator what the IP-address =
of the server is. Whether or not to do proxying is simply done by =
addressing the traffic to the concentrator by using a the proxy =
port-number.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>So, standardizing this =
is probably useful. But should not be done as part of MPTCP, because the =
plain-mode option is orthogonal to MPTCP.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Christoph</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 00:17:40 -0700
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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 2/5 - Reliability
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Hi Alan,

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Yoshi,
>
> Inline=E2=80=A6
>
> On 4 Aug 2016, at 07:36, Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp> wrote=
:
>
> Hi Fabien,
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne <fabien.duchene@
> uclouvain.be> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
>> discuss the different contributions proposed
>> inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
>>
>> This is the part 2/5 : reliability.
>>
>> In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR options can be attached to segments carrying data
>> or pure acknowledgements.
>> In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 addresses
>> and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will be often sent as pure
>> acknowledgements.
>> This implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which could be
>> problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allow the establishment of
>> additional subflows, as in load balancing scenarios.
>> We propose to rely on the "E" (Echo) flag in the ADD_ADDR option.
>> This echo flag is used to acknolwedge a received ADD_ADDR by echoing it.
>> If the acknowledgement is not received, the ADD_ADDR option will be
>> retransmitted up to N times.
>>
>
> I have several comments on this. Please let me know if I miss something.
>
> 1=EF=BC=9A Do we really need ADD_ADDR reliability in all cases? An end no=
de might
> want to send ADD_ADDR for 'just in case' rather than for "I want you to u=
se
> this"
> BTW, I'm not sure if the draft tries to replace the current ADD_ADDR or t=
o
> propose an additional ADD_ADDR option.
>
>
> The argument is that by making it reliable, you only need to send it once
> to know it=E2=80=99s been received, even if the far end does not use it.
>
2: The sender cannot be sure whether the info in ADD_ADDR will be used or
> not. It depends on the peer's decision.
> I might prefer re-transmitting ADD_ADDR up to N times when the sender
> doesn't receive MP_JOIN to the address for a certain amount of time.
>
> As above, by making it reliable you only need to send it once to know it=
=E2=80=99s
> been received, even if the far end chooses not to use it.
>

Hmm. if a sender wants the peer to use specific address (such as a load
balancer case), I can understand that we want to make it reliable. But, if
the sender doesn't care, I'm not very sure the reason to make it reliable
or send ADD_ADDR frequently.

I personally think this is a trade-off point. We are trying to introduce
some complexities in the protocol to send TCP options reliably.  I might
want to see some benefits to compensate it.


>
> I think I=E2=80=99m sold on this idea now, given the additional recent co=
mments. I
> support this.
>
> 3: "the receiving host MUST return the exact option.." Although it is
> MUST, can we always do this? There might be a situation where there is no
> option space or no segment to send.
>
>
> I would assume the same rules as ADD_ADDR are followed, so it=E2=80=99s s=
ent on a
> duplicate ACK in that case.
>

Hmm. If we apply the same rules to this, it may need to send a dupack for a
dupack and may be repeated N times. I still need to think about it, but it
doesn't look pretty..

Thanks,
--
Yoshi

--001a114df61eaf41f705394ddc93
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Alan,<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Alan Ford <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">alan.ford@gmail.=
com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-=
left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break=
-word">Hi Yoshi,<div><br></div><div>Inline=E2=80=A6</div><div><br><div><spa=
n class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 4 Aug 2016, at 07:36, Yoshif=
umi Nishida &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp" target=3D"_blank"=
>nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:norm=
al;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Hi Fabien,<div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Fabie=
n Duch=C3=AAne<span>=C2=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fa=
bien.duchene@uclouvain.be" target=3D"_blank">fabien.duchene@<wbr>uclouvain.=
be</a>&gt;</span><span>=C2=A0</span>wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-st=
yle:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hello,<br><b=
r>As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I&#39;m sending a series of emails to<=
br>discuss the different contributions proposed<br>inhttps://<a href=3D"htt=
p://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">datatracker.ietf.<wbr>org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-<wb=
r>add-addr/</a><br><br>This is the part 2/5 : reliability.<br><br>In RFC682=
4, ADD_ADDR options can be attached to segments carrying data<br>or pure ac=
knowledgements.<br>In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with I=
Pv6 addresses<br>and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will be often se=
nt as pure<br>acknowledgements.<br>This implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unre=
liably, which could be<br>problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allo=
w the establishment of<br>additional subflows, as in load balancing scenari=
os.<br>We propose to rely on the &quot;E&quot; (Echo) flag in the ADD_ADDR =
option.<br>This echo flag is used to acknolwedge a received ADD_ADDR by ech=
oing it.<br>If the acknowledgement is not received, the ADD_ADDR option wil=
l be<br>retransmitted up to N times.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I =
have several comments on this. Please let me know if I miss something.</div=
><div><br></div><div>1=EF=BC=9A Do we really need ADD_ADDR reliability in a=
ll cases? An end node might want to send ADD_ADDR for &#39;just in case&#39=
; rather than for &quot;I want you to use this&quot;=C2=A0</div><div>BTW, I=
&#39;m not sure if the draft tries to replace the current ADD_ADDR or to pr=
opose an additional ADD_ADDR option.</div></div></div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div></span><div>The argument is that by making it reli=
able, you only need to send it once to know it=E2=80=99s been received, eve=
n if the far end does not use it.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-=
width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><span class=3D"">=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div>2: The sender cannot be sure whether the info in ADD_ADDR will be us=
ed or not. It depends on the peer&#39;s decision. =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>I =
might prefer re-transmitting ADD_ADDR up to N times when the sender doesn&#=
39;t receive MP_JOIN to the address for a certain amount of time.</div><div=
><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></span><div>As above,=
 by making it reliable you only need to send it once to know it=E2=80=99s b=
een received, even if the far end chooses not to use it.</div></div></div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hmm. if a sender wants the peer to us=
e specific address (such as a load balancer case), I can understand that we=
 want to make it reliable. But, if the sender doesn&#39;t care, I&#39;m not=
 very sure the reason to make it reliable or send ADD_ADDR frequently.</div=
><div><br></div><div>I personally think this is a trade-off point. We are t=
rying to introduce some complexities in the protocol to send TCP options re=
liably.=C2=A0 I might want to see some benefits to compensate it.<br></div>=
<div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-col=
or:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><=
div><div><div><br></div><div>I think I=E2=80=99m sold on this idea now, giv=
en the additional recent comments. I support this.</div><span class=3D""><b=
r><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helv=
etica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">3: &quot;the receiving host MUST return the exact option..&quot; Althou=
gh it is MUST, can we always do this? There might be a situation where ther=
e is no option space or no segment to send. =C2=A0</div></div></div></div><=
/div></blockquote></span></div><br></div><div>I would assume the same rules=
 as ADD_ADDR are followed, so it=E2=80=99s sent on a duplicate ACK in that =
case.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hmm. If we apply the same=
 rules to this, it may need to send a dupack for a dupack and may be repeat=
ed N times. I still need to think about it, but it doesn&#39;t look pretty.=
.</div></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Thanks,</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra">--</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Yoshi</div></div>

--001a114df61eaf41f705394ddc93--


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>, "Christoph Paasch" <cpaasch@apple.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: "Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com" <Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "wim.henderickx@nokia.com" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>, "cpaasch@apple.com" <cpaasch@apple.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Cc: MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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Inline

> On Aug 5, 2016, at 6:32 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com> wrote:
> From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com <mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>> =
on behalf of Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com =
<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>>
> Date: Friday 5 August 2016 at 08:00
> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com =
<mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>>
> Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com <mailto:tpauly@apple.com>>, =
MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended =
proxy
>> On Aug 4, 2016, at 9:23 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com <mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>> wrote:
>> From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com <mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>> =
on behalf of Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com =
<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>>
>> Date: Thursday 4 August 2016 at 06:32
>> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com =
<mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>>
>> Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com <mailto:tpauly@apple.com>>, =
MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on =
two-ended proxy
>>> On Aug 3, 2016, at 9:14 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com <mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>> wrote:
>>> From: <tpauly@apple.com <mailto:tpauly@apple.com>> on behalf of =
Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com <mailto:tpauly@apple.com>>
>>> Date: Thursday 4 August 2016 at 02:10
>>> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com =
<mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>>
>>> Cc: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>, =
"multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>" =
<multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on =
two-ended proxy
>>>> From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>
>>>> Date: Wednesday 3 August 2016 at 09:20
>>>> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com =
<mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>>
>>>> Cc: Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com =
<mailto:rao.shoaib@oracle.com>>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>" <multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on =
two-ended proxy
>>>>> On 2 Aug 2016, at 20:11, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
<wim.henderickx@nokia.com <mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com>> wrote:
>>>>> On 02/08/16 15:52, "Alan Ford" <alan.ford@gmail.com =
<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m trying to distinguish the various use cases; can we =
confirm this is correct?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Transparent Mode
>>>>>> - Source address =3D real source address
>>>>> WH> not always since NAT can be in the path
>>>>>> - Destination address =3D real destination address
>>>>>> - Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, =
adding and removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc
>>>>>> - Latest proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is =
proxied=E2=80=9D so that a proxy can intercept it
>>>>> WH> indeed or not intercept it based on the indication
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Plain Mode
>>>>>> - Source address =3D real source
>>>>> WH> could also be NATed in some use cases
>>>>>> - Destination address =3D proxy destination address
>>>>>> - Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination address
>>>>> WH> or SRC address
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main difference =
is that Plain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas the =
transparent mode does not change src/dst addresses?
>>>>> WH> the main difference is mainly DST IP is changed to get =
explicit routing to the proxy versus being implicit in the transparent =
case
>>>>=20
>>>> OK, so my understanding appears correct here.
>>>> WH> yes
>>>>=20
>>>>>> The issue I see with a generic proxy bit is that it does not =
contain any context about what kind of proxy is being intercepted. You =
could be sending in good faith expecting it to be picked up by Proxy =
from Operator A, but in fact is picked up by Operator B.
>>>>> WH> the network assisted proxy is mainly targeting single =
operator/controlled operator use cases to avoid these issues.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not =
MPTCP-specific and is simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that =
follows is actually targeted for IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is =
entirely transport-agnostic. If the HAG could know where to find a proxy =
(e.g. a well-known anycast address) then addresses could be rewritten =
and packets forwarded, with no need for any MPTCP protocol changes.
>>>>> WH> you would still need to know the original destination IP@ that =
the application wanted to go to.
>>>>=20
>>>> Which is the point of the signalling protocol - the proposed =
=E2=80=9Cplain mode option=E2=80=9D which is actually carried in the =
payload. My issue with this is that this is _not MPTCP-specific_. This =
is simply a signal above the transport layer to inform a proxy what the =
real destination is.
>>>>=20
>>>> WH> I hear, you and I understand but we have an explicit use case =
for this with MPTCP and so far not in any other protocol. Hence I think =
it is good to extend MPTCP with this capability and liase with other =
WG(s) about this.
>>>=20
>>> While you may have a use-case for having proxies work with your =
MPTCP solution, it does not directly follow that the MPTCP protocol or =
WG is the best place to specify how the proxy works. This really does =
seem like a proxy solution that can be made more generic, and at the =
very least belongs as a protocol that is run within the MPTCP stream. =
This is what the SOCKS protocol does, and there is no reason you can't =
run SOCKS over MPTCP, or create a new variant of SOCKS or a similar =
protocol that you will run on top of MPTCP for your solution. Indeed, it =
could be seen as a benefit to work on the proxying solution =
independently from MPTCP, since that way it can be used for other =
transports. The end result will be the same, and the architecture will =
be cleaner.
>>>=20
>>> WH> given the extension is specific in TCP?MPTCP since we carry the =
information in a SYN packet it becomes specific to the protocol and =
hence I still believe it fits.
>>=20
>> The information is actually carried in the payload. So, it is not =
really part of TCP/MPTCP. Carrying it in the SYN is just because TCP =
does not prevent carrying data in the SYN-segment.
>>=20
>> WH> we added it in the payload due to limited option space available =
in TCP
>>=20
>>> Other transport mechanisms have other means and can adopt a similar =
information element but the way the protocol consumes it is specific and =
should be done in the protocol afais.
>>=20
>> I disagree that the information is consumed by MPTCP. It is rather =
consumed by the application sitting right on top of MPTCP, because this =
is the one that is reading the data out of the MPTCP-stream and =
forwarding it over to final destination. And MPTCP itself is not really =
using the plain-mode option.
>>=20
>> If you look at Socks v4, it is actually carrying the exact same =
information than the plain-mode option (besides the protocol-field). So, =
an implementation could easily put the Socks-client request in the =
SYN-payload. The proxy who receives that can then (after connecting to =
the final server) reply in the SYN/ACK with the Socks-server option in =
the SYN/ACK's payload. And from there on, the data will be forwarded =
from one side to the other.
>>=20
>> This would be a low-overhead handshake for the proxy without the =
chatty overhead of Socks v5.
>>=20
>> WH> Latency matters here and people already experienced that =
additional signaling messages with its roundtrip  degrades QoE. Even =
adding 2 message is not the right way to go and hence we want to add the =
informational elements in the messages in MPTCP.
>=20
> I am 100% sure that the way I described it is not adding more latency =
compared to the current plain-mode option proposal. Can you please =
explain, how my suggestion "degrades QoE" (compared to the plain-mode =
option) ?
>=20
> WH10> my understanding is that you propose to add an additional out of =
band singling which need to negotiate the capabilities. This means extra =
signaling on top of what MPTCP does, so this is where your extra latency =
comes from.

No, there is no extra signaling compared to the plain-mode option, as =
what I am proposing would be to put the SOCKS v4 framing in the SYN. So, =
there is no additional round-trip here.
Please explain (with a flow-diagram of segments sent) how the latency is =
higher in this proposal.

>=20
>> As such we need to enhance the information elements in TCP/MPTCP =
protocol to indicate that there is some data available that needs to be =
consumed by the proxy to operate properly. You need to extend the =
protocol to provide this capability in my view.
>> The addition of adding a sub flow in MPTCP also provides addressing =
information and we need similar information for the MPTCP proxy (do the =
proxy or not, src/dst info, etc).
>> We carry the data in the SYN due to limited option space but we could =
carry it in the option data as well. As such it becomes TCP specific and =
we believe it is best to leverage on the TCP framework to extend  this =
capability.=20
>=20
> Wrt. to "as such it becomes TCP specific" : Just because one =
arbitrarily puts some information in the TCP-option space does not make =
the information TCP-specific by design...
> WH10> if 99% of what we need is in the MPTCP stack why should we not =
use this. We have multi-path, we get congestion management, re-ordering, =
etc in MPTCP and we need this for the hybrid access use case. Our goal =
is to extend the capabilities on top of MPTCP since it does not of what =
we need. We just need to enhance it with some capabilities specific to =
the hybrid access use case and if you don=E2=80=99t need them you can =
avoid them.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Let's put MPTCP aside for a moment.
>=20
> Basically, the network that you are targeting has some characteristics =
that make a certain transport protocol more adapt for a certain leg of =
the end-to-end path. So, the goal is to enable the use of a special =
transport protocol over this leg of the network.
> To do so, the byte-stream that is sent by the application from the =
client/server needs to be taken out of TCP and transmitted over this =
special transport protocol. Thus, the TCP-connection is being terminated =
at the CPE such that the byte-stream can be extracted out of TCP. This =
byte-stream is then sent over the specialized transport protocol to the =
concentrator on a specific port-number. The concentrator then terminates =
the special transport protocol so that it can extract the byte-stream =
out of it and sends the byte-stream to the final server over TCP.
> Now, as the concentrator is not always on the IP-path between CPE and =
server, the CPE actually needs to use the destination IP-address of the =
concentrator in the segments that are using the specialized transport =
protocol. So, this is the "plain-mode" that you are addressing. To let =
the concentrator send the byte-stream to the final server, the CPE needs =
to tell to the concentrator which IP the server has. To do so, the CPE =
places this information in the payload of the first segment that it =
sends to the concentrator by using the specialized transport protocol. =
This is exactly what you are doing with the plain-mode option.
>=20
>=20
> As you can see, in the above description of the hybrid access =
solution, there is nothing that is specific to MPTCP and nothing =
specific to the use of multiple interfaces or hybrid accesses. The sole =
use of the plain-mode option is to convey to the concentrator what the =
IP-address of the server is. Whether or not to do proxying is simply =
done by addressing the traffic to the concentrator by using a the proxy =
port-number.
>=20
> So, standardizing this is probably useful. But should not be done as =
part of MPTCP, because the plain-mode option is orthogonal to MPTCP.
>=20
> WH10> I get what you say but if I can re-use 99% of what is in MPTCP =
why should I define a new protocol to achieve the same thing. I can add =
something to the protocol to achieve the functionality, why should we =
not leverage this. This is why we call this an MPTCP proxy. If people =
don=E2=80=99t want to use it they don=E2=80=99t have to consume it. If =
people want to use the mechanism in another protocol they can. We just =
want to add this capability on top of an already existing MPTCP protocol =
which give us the capabilities we need. that=E2=80=99s all

What we are basically saying is that you could think beyond MPTCP and =
not lock yourself into it. The benefit of the plain-mode option goes far =
beyond your current use-case (which is MPTCP-centric). So, designing it =
in a way that it is independent from the transport-protocol would add =
far more value to it.
The good thing is that designing it in such a way that it is independent =
from the transport-protocol is very straight-forward. You basically take =
the plain-mode option in its current form and remove the subtype-field. =
Then you are done. Easy :)


Cheers,
Christoph


--Boundary_(ID_nAn06lv87rTRb6F0+n15lQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Inline<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 5, 2016, at 6:32 AM, =
Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D""><div style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri; font-size: 12pt; text-align: left; border-width: 1pt medium =
medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">From: </span>Christoph Paasch =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" =
class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; on behalf of Christoph Paasch =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" =
class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Date: </span>Friday 5 August =
2016 at 08:00<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">To: </span>Wim Henderickx =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Cc: </span>Tommy Pauly =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" =
class=3D"">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;, MultiPath TCP - IETF WG &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Subject: </span>Re: =
[multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy<br =
class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 4, 2016, at 9:23 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D""><div style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri; font-size: 12pt; text-align: left; border-width: 1pt medium =
medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">From: </span>Christoph Paasch =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" =
class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; on behalf of Christoph Paasch =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" =
class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Date: </span>Thursday 4 =
August 2016 at 06:32<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">To: </span>Wim Henderickx =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Cc: </span>Tommy Pauly =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" =
class=3D"">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;, MultiPath TCP - IETF WG &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Subject: </span>Re: =
[multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy<br =
class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2016, at 9:14 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 12pt; text-align: left; =
border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">From: </span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" class=3D"">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt; on =
behalf of Tommy Pauly &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" =
class=3D"">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Date: </span>Thursday 4 =
August 2016 at 02:10<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">To: </span>Wim Henderickx =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Cc: </span>Alan Ford &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Subject: </span>Re: =
[multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy<br =
class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 12pt; =
text-align: left; border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid =
none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">From: </span>Alan =
Ford &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Date: </span>Wednesday 3 =
August 2016 at 09:20<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">To: </span>Wim Henderickx =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Cc: </span>Rao Shoaib &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rao.shoaib@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">rao.shoaib@oracle.com</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold" class=3D"">Subject: </span>Re: =
[multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy<br =
class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 2 Aug 2016, at 20:11, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">On
 02/08/16 15:52, "Alan Ford" &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&gt;
 wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
I=E2=80=99m trying to distinguish the various use cases; can we confirm =
this is correct?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Transparent Mode<br class=3D"">
- Source address =3D real source address<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 not always since NAT can be in the path</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
- Destination address =3D real destination address<br class=3D"">
- Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, adding =
and removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc<br class=3D"">
- Latest proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is =
proxied=E2=80=9D so that a proxy can intercept it<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 indeed or not intercept it based on the indication</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Plain Mode<br class=3D"">
- Source address =3D real source<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 could also be NATed in some use cases</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
- Destination address =3D proxy destination address<br class=3D"">
- Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination address<br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 or SRC address</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main difference is =
that Plain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas the =
transparent mode does not change src/dst addresses?<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 the main difference is mainly DST IP is changed to get explicit routing =
to the proxy versus being implicit in the transparent case</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">OK, so my understanding appears correct here.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; yes</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
The issue I see with a generic proxy bit is that it does not contain any =
context about what kind of proxy is being intercepted. You could be =
sending in good faith expecting it to be picked up by Proxy from =
Operator A, but in fact is picked up by Operator B.<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 the network assisted proxy is mainly targeting single =
operator/controlled operator use cases to avoid these issues.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not MPTCP-specific =
and is simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that follows is =
actually targeted for IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is entirely =
transport-agnostic. If the HAG could know where to find a proxy (e.g.
 a well-known anycast address) then addresses could be rewritten and =
packets forwarded, with no need for any MPTCP protocol changes.<br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">WH&gt;
 you would still need to know the original destination IP@ that the =
application wanted to go to.</span></blockquote>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Which is the point of the signalling protocol - the =
proposed =E2=80=9Cplain mode option=E2=80=9D which is actually carried =
in the payload. My issue with this is that this is _not MPTCP-specific_. =
This is simply a signal above the transport layer to inform a proxy
 what the real destination is.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; I hear, you and I understand but we have an =
explicit use case for this with MPTCP and so far not in any other =
protocol. Hence I think it is good to extend MPTCP with this capability =
and liase with other WG(s) about this.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">While you may have a use-case for having proxies work =
with your MPTCP solution, it does not directly follow that the MPTCP =
protocol or WG is the best place to specify how the proxy works. This =
really does seem like a proxy solution that can be
 made more generic, and at the very least belongs as a protocol that is =
run within the MPTCP stream. This is what the SOCKS protocol does, and =
there is no reason you can't run SOCKS over MPTCP, or create a new =
variant of SOCKS or a similar protocol that you
 will run on top of MPTCP for your solution. Indeed, it could be seen as =
a benefit to work on the proxying solution independently from MPTCP, =
since that way it can be used for other transports. The end result will =
be the same, and the architecture will be cleaner.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; given the extension is specific in TCP?MPTCP =
since we carry the information in a SYN packet it becomes specific to =
the protocol and hence I still believe it fits.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">The information is actually carried in the payload. So, =
it is not really part of TCP/MPTCP. Carrying it in the SYN is just =
because TCP does not prevent carrying data in the SYN-segment.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; we added it in the payload due to limited option =
space available in TCP</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Other transport mechanisms have other means and can =
adopt a similar information element but the way the protocol consumes it =
is specific and should be done in the protocol afais.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I disagree that the information is consumed by MPTCP. It =
is rather consumed by the application sitting right on top of MPTCP, =
because this is the one that is reading the data out of the MPTCP-stream =
and forwarding it over to final destination.
 And MPTCP itself is not really using the plain-mode option.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">If you look at Socks v4, it is actually carrying the =
exact same information than the plain-mode option (besides the =
protocol-field). So, an implementation could easily put the Socks-client =
request in the SYN-payload. The proxy who receives that
 can then (after connecting to the final server) reply in the SYN/ACK =
with the Socks-server option in the SYN/ACK's payload. And from there =
on, the data will be forwarded from one side to the other.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">This would be a low-overhead handshake for the proxy =
without the chatty overhead of Socks v5.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH&gt; Latency matters here and people already =
experienced that additional signaling messages with its roundtrip =
&nbsp;degrades QoE. Even adding 2 message is not the right way to go and =
hence we want to add the informational elements in the messages in
 MPTCP.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I am 100% sure that the way I described it is not adding =
more latency compared to the current plain-mode option proposal. Can you =
please explain, how my suggestion "degrades QoE" (compared to the =
plain-mode option) ?</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH10&gt; my understanding is that you propose to add an =
additional out of band singling which need to negotiate the =
capabilities. This means extra signaling on top of what MPTCP does, so =
this is where your extra latency comes =
from.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>No, =
there is no extra signaling compared to the plain-mode option, as what I =
am proposing would be to put the SOCKS v4 framing in the SYN. So, there =
is no additional round-trip here.</div><div>Please explain (with a =
flow-diagram of segments sent) how the latency is higher in this =
proposal.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">As such we need to enhance the information elements in =
TCP/MPTCP protocol to indicate that there is some data available that =
needs to be consumed by the proxy to operate properly. You need to =
extend the protocol to provide this capability in my
 view.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">The addition of adding a sub flow in MPTCP also provides =
addressing information and we need similar information for the MPTCP =
proxy (do the proxy or not, src/dst info, etc).</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">We carry the data in the SYN due to limited option space =
but we could carry it in the option data as well. As such it becomes TCP =
specific and we believe it is best to leverage on the TCP framework to =
extend &nbsp;this capability.&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Wrt. to&nbsp;<i class=3D"">"as such it becomes TCP =
specific"&nbsp;</i>: Just because one arbitrarily puts some information =
in the TCP-option space does not make the information TCP-specific by =
design...</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D"">WH10&gt; if 99% of what we need is in the MPTCP stack =
why should we not use this. We have multi-path, we get congestion =
management, re-ordering, etc in MPTCP and we need this for the hybrid =
access use case. Our goal is to extend the capabilities on top of
 MPTCP since it does not of what we need. We just need to enhance it =
with some capabilities specific to the hybrid access use case and if you =
don=E2=80=99t need them you can avoid them.</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Let's put MPTCP aside for a moment.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Basically, the network that you are targeting has some =
characteristics that make a certain transport protocol more adapt for a =
certain leg of the end-to-end path. So, the goal is to enable the use of =
a special transport protocol over this leg of the network.</div>
<div class=3D"">To do so, the byte-stream that is sent by the =
application from the client/server needs to be taken out of TCP and =
transmitted over this special transport protocol. Thus, the =
TCP-connection is being terminated at the CPE such that the byte-stream =
can be
 extracted out of TCP. This byte-stream is then sent over the =
specialized transport protocol to the concentrator on a specific =
port-number. The concentrator then terminates the special transport =
protocol so that it can extract the byte-stream out of it and
 sends the byte-stream to the final server over TCP.</div>
<div class=3D"">Now, as the concentrator is not always on the IP-path =
between CPE and server, the CPE actually needs to use the destination =
IP-address of the concentrator in the segments that are using the =
specialized transport protocol. So, this is the "plain-mode" that
 you are addressing. To let the concentrator send the byte-stream to the =
final server, the CPE needs to tell to the concentrator which IP the =
server has. To do so, the CPE places this information in the payload of =
the first segment that it sends to the concentrator
 by using the specialized transport protocol. This is exactly what you =
are doing with the plain-mode option.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">As you can see, in the above description of the hybrid =
access solution, there is nothing that is specific to MPTCP and nothing =
specific to the use of multiple interfaces or hybrid accesses. The sole =
use of the plain-mode option is to convey to the concentrator
 what the IP-address of the server is. Whether or not to do proxying is =
simply done by addressing the traffic to the concentrator by using a the =
proxy port-number.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">So, standardizing this is probably useful. But should =
not be done as part of MPTCP, because the plain-mode option is =
orthogonal to MPTCP.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">WH10&gt; I get what you say but if I can re-use 99% of =
what is in MPTCP why should I define a new protocol to achieve the same =
thing. I can add something to the protocol to achieve the functionality, =
why should we not leverage this. This is why we call this
 an MPTCP proxy. If people don=E2=80=99t want to use it they don=E2=80=99t=
 have to consume it. If people want to use the mechanism in another =
protocol they can. We just want to add this capability on top of an =
already existing MPTCP protocol which give us the capabilities
 we need. that=E2=80=99s all</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>What we are basically saying is that you could =
think beyond MPTCP and not lock yourself into it. The benefit of the =
plain-mode option goes far beyond your current use-case (which is =
MPTCP-centric). So, designing it in a way that it is independent from =
the transport-protocol would add far more value to it.</div><div>The =
good thing is that designing it in such a way that it is independent =
from the transport-protocol is very straight-forward. You basically take =
the plain-mode option in its current form and remove the subtype-field. =
Then you are done. Easy :)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Christoph</div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Boundary_(ID_nAn06lv87rTRb6F0+n15lQ)--


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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 21:35:53 +0100
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 2/5 - Reliability
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Hi Yoshi,

Inline...

On Friday, 5 August 2016, Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp> wrote:

> Hi Alan,
>
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','alan.ford@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
>> Hi Yoshi,
>>
>> Inline=E2=80=A6
>>
>> On 4 Aug 2016, at 07:36, Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp');>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Fabien,
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne <fabien.duchene@uclo=
uv
>> ain.be <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be');>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
>>> discuss the different contributions proposed
>>> inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
>>>
>>> This is the part 2/5 : reliability.
>>>
>>> In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR options can be attached to segments carrying data
>>> or pure acknowledgements.
>>> In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 addresses
>>> and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will be often sent as pure
>>> acknowledgements.
>>> This implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which could be
>>> problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allow the establishment of
>>> additional subflows, as in load balancing scenarios.
>>> We propose to rely on the "E" (Echo) flag in the ADD_ADDR option.
>>> This echo flag is used to acknolwedge a received ADD_ADDR by echoing it=
.
>>> If the acknowledgement is not received, the ADD_ADDR option will be
>>> retransmitted up to N times.
>>>
>>
>> I have several comments on this. Please let me know if I miss something.
>>
>> 1=EF=BC=9A Do we really need ADD_ADDR reliability in all cases? An end n=
ode might
>> want to send ADD_ADDR for 'just in case' rather than for "I want you to =
use
>> this"
>> BTW, I'm not sure if the draft tries to replace the current ADD_ADDR or
>> to propose an additional ADD_ADDR option.
>>
>>
>> The argument is that by making it reliable, you only need to send it onc=
e
>> to know it=E2=80=99s been received, even if the far end does not use it.
>>
> 2: The sender cannot be sure whether the info in ADD_ADDR will be used or
>> not. It depends on the peer's decision.
>> I might prefer re-transmitting ADD_ADDR up to N times when the sender
>> doesn't receive MP_JOIN to the address for a certain amount of time.
>>
>> As above, by making it reliable you only need to send it once to know
>> it=E2=80=99s been received, even if the far end chooses not to use it.
>>
>
> Hmm. if a sender wants the peer to use specific address (such as a load
> balancer case), I can understand that we want to make it reliable. But, i=
f
> the sender doesn't care, I'm not very sure the reason to make it reliable
> or send ADD_ADDR frequently.
>

If local policy means the subflow won't be immediately established, there's
no way of knowing if it's been received.

Similarly, if the subflow can't be created due to e.g. firewall/network
issues, it would be useful to know if the ADD_ADDR had nevertheless been
received, so you could stop sending it.


>
> I personally think this is a trade-off point. We are trying to introduce
> some complexities in the protocol to send TCP options reliably.  I might
> want to see some benefits to compensate it.
>
>
>>
>> I think I=E2=80=99m sold on this idea now, given the additional recent c=
omments.
>> I support this.
>>
>> 3: "the receiving host MUST return the exact option.." Although it is
>> MUST, can we always do this? There might be a situation where there is n=
o
>> option space or no segment to send.
>>
>>
>> I would assume the same rules as ADD_ADDR are followed, so it=E2=80=99s =
sent on a
>> duplicate ACK in that case.
>>
>
> Hmm. If we apply the same rules to this, it may need to send a dupack for
> a dupack and may be repeated N times. I still need to think about it, but
> it doesn't look pretty..
>

OK, we wouldn't need to retransmit the echo, unless a new ADD_ADDR comes
in. You raise a good point though about rate limiting however, an
implementation couldn't just keep on retransmitting for ever, and needs to
assume the options are being lost and stop sending them.

Regards,
Alan

--94eb2c07747421de7905396d2120
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Yoshi,<div><br></div><div>Inline...<br><br>On Friday, 5 August 2016, Yos=
hifumi Nishida &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp">nishida@sfc.wi=
de.ad.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
Hi Alan,<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Th=
u, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Alan Ford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"java=
script:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;alan.ford@gmail.com&#39;);" target=3D"=
_blank">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-=
left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Hi Yoshi,<div><br></div><div>Inline=E2=80=A6=
</div><div><br><div><span><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 4 Aug 2016, at =
07:36, Yoshifumi Nishida &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;=
,&#39;nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">nishida@sfc.wide.ad.=
jp</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal=
;word-spacing:0px">Hi Fabien,<div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne<span>=
=C2=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvm=
l&#39;,&#39;fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">fabien.du=
chene@uclouv<wbr>ain.be</a>&gt;</span><span>=C2=A0</span>wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-wid=
th:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-l=
eft:1ex">Hello,<br><br>As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I&#39;m sending a=
 series of emails to<br>discuss the different contributions proposed<br>inh=
ttps://<a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-a=
ddr/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">datatracker.ietf.org<wbr>/doc/dr=
aft-duchene-mptcp-add-<wbr>addr/</a><br><br>This is the part 2/5 : reliabil=
ity.<br><br>In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR options can be attached to segments carryi=
ng data<br>or pure acknowledgements.<br>In practice, notably given the leng=
th of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 addresses<br>and the HMAC, it is very likely that =
they will be often sent as pure<br>acknowledgements.<br>This implies that A=
DD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which could be<br>problematic when the ADD_ADD=
R is required to allow the establishment of<br>additional subflows, as in l=
oad balancing scenarios.<br>We propose to rely on the &quot;E&quot; (Echo) =
flag in the ADD_ADDR option.<br>This echo flag is used to acknolwedge a rec=
eived ADD_ADDR by echoing it.<br>If the acknowledgement is not received, th=
e ADD_ADDR option will be<br>retransmitted up to N times.<br></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>I have several comments on this. Please let me know if I=
 miss something.</div><div><br></div><div>1=EF=BC=9A Do we really need ADD_=
ADDR reliability in all cases? An end node might want to send ADD_ADDR for =
&#39;just in case&#39; rather than for &quot;I want you to use this&quot;=
=C2=A0</div><div>BTW, I&#39;m not sure if the draft tries to replace the cu=
rrent ADD_ADDR or to propose an additional ADD_ADDR option.</div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>The argument is=
 that by making it reliable, you only need to send it once to know it=E2=80=
=99s been received, even if the far end does not use it.</div></div></div><=
/div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:=
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div=
><div><span><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-f=
amily:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div>2: The sender cannot be sure whether the info in ADD_ADD=
R will be used or not. It depends on the peer&#39;s decision. =C2=A0=C2=A0<=
/div><div>I might prefer re-transmitting ADD_ADDR up to N times when the se=
nder doesn&#39;t receive MP_JOIN to the address for a certain amount of tim=
e.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></span><d=
iv>As above, by making it reliable you only need to send it once to know it=
=E2=80=99s been received, even if the far end chooses not to use it.</div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hmm. if a sender wants th=
e peer to use specific address (such as a load balancer case), I can unders=
tand that we want to make it reliable. But, if the sender doesn&#39;t care,=
 I&#39;m not very sure the reason to make it reliable or send ADD_ADDR freq=
uently.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>If local policy =
means the subflow=C2=A0won&#39;t be immediately established, there&#39;s no=
 way of knowing if it&#39;s been received.</div><div><br></div><div>Similar=
ly, if the subflow can&#39;t be created due to e.g. firewall/network issues=
, it would be useful to know if the ADD_ADDR had nevertheless been received=
, so you could stop sending it.<br><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div><br></div><div>I personally think this is a trade-off point. We ar=
e trying to introduce some complexities in the protocol to send TCP options=
 reliably.=C2=A0 I might want to see some benefits to compensate it.<br></d=
iv><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-=
color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word=
"><div><div><div><br></div><div>I think I=E2=80=99m sold on this idea now, =
given the additional recent comments. I support this.</div><span><br><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;fo=
nt-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">3: &=
quot;the receiving host MUST return the exact option..&quot; Although it is=
 MUST, can we always do this? There might be a situation where there is no =
option space or no segment to send. =C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote></span></div><br></div><div>I would assume the same rules as ADD_=
ADDR are followed, so it=E2=80=99s sent on a duplicate ACK in that case.</d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hmm. If we apply the same rules t=
o this, it may need to send a dupack for a dupack and may be repeated N tim=
es. I still need to think about it, but it doesn&#39;t look pretty..</div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>OK, we wouldn&#39;t need =
to retransmit the echo, unless a new ADD_ADDR comes in. You raise a good po=
int though about rate limiting however, an implementation couldn&#39;t just=
 keep on retransmitting for ever, and needs to assume the options are being=
 lost and stop sending them.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Al=
an=C2=A0</div></div>

--94eb2c07747421de7905396d2120--


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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 21:47:45 +0100
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To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
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Cc: MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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--001a1149310aa36de905396d4b9a
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Absolutely, and I'm excited to see MPTCP finding a use in this way :-)

My concerns are around pragmatism too: firstly, ensuring any solution does
not add complexity or introduce issues in the base MPTCP protocol where it
is not required, or for what is a specialist use; and secondly, that you
are not limiting functionality of your solution in the future.

However, I do not think there is much point continuing this debate until we
see the consolidated proxy draft (plain mode + transparent) which was
discussed in Berlin - this may well make the goals of this work clearer.

Regards,
Alan

On Friday, 5 August 2016, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:

> Re-,
>
>
>
> Fully agree with Wim. It is all about a pragmatic solution to an
> engineering problem.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> *De :* multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org');>] *De la
> part de* Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)
> *Envoy=C3=A9 :* vendredi 5 ao=C3=BBt 2016 15:33
> *=C3=80 :* Christoph Paasch
> *Cc :* MultiPath TCP - IETF WG
> *Objet :* Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended
> proxy
>
>
>
> In-line
>
>
>
> *From: *Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cpaasch@apple.com');>> on behalf of
> Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cpaasch@apple.com');>>
> *Date: *Friday 5 August 2016 at 08:00
> *To: *Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wim.henderickx@nokia.com');>>
> *Cc: *Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tpauly@apple.com');>>, MultiPath TCP - IETF
> WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','multipathtcp@ietf.org');>>
> *Subject: *Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended
> proxy
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> inline...
>
>
>
> On Aug 4, 2016, at 9:23 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) <
> wim.henderickx@nokia.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wim.henderickx@nokia.com');>> wrote:
>
>
>
> In-line sorry was on the road yesterday
>
>
>
> *From: *Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cpaasch@apple.com');>> on behalf of
> Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cpaasch@apple.com');>>
> *Date: *Thursday 4 August 2016 at 06:32
> *To: *Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wim.henderickx@nokia.com');>>
> *Cc: *Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tpauly@apple.com');>>, MultiPath TCP - IETF
> WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','multipathtcp@ietf.org');>>
> *Subject: *Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended
> proxy
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> On Aug 3, 2016, at 9:14 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) <
> wim.henderickx@nokia.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wim.henderickx@nokia.com');>> wrote:
>
> *From: *<tpauly@apple.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tpauly@apple.com');>> on behalf of Tommy
> Pauly <tpauly@apple.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tpauly@apple.com');=
>
> >
> *Date: *Thursday 4 August 2016 at 02:10
> *To: *Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wim.henderickx@nokia.com');>>
> *Cc: *Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','alan.ford@gmail.com');>>, "
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','multipathtcp@ietf.org');>" <
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','multipathtcp@ietf.org');>>
> *Subject: *Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended
> proxy
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 3, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) <
> wim.henderickx@nokia.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wim.henderickx@nokia.com');>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Alan, in-line
>
>
>
> *From: *Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','alan.ford@gmail.com');>>
> *Date: *Wednesday 3 August 2016 at 09:20
> *To: *Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@nokia.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wim.henderickx@nokia.com');>>
> *Cc: *Rao Shoaib <rao.shoaib@oracle.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rao.shoaib@oracle.com');>>, "
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','multipathtcp@ietf.org');>" <
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','multipathtcp@ietf.org');>>
> *Subject: *Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended
> proxy
>
>
>
> Hi Wim, all,
>
>
>
> Comment inline...
>
>
>
> On 2 Aug 2016, at 20:11, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) <
> wim.henderickx@nokia.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wim.henderickx@nokia.com');>> wrote:
>
> On 02/08/16 15:52, "Alan Ford" <alan.ford@gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','alan.ford@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m trying to distinguish the various use cases; can we confirm t=
his is
> correct?
>
> Transparent Mode
> - Source address =3D real source address
>
> WH> not always since NAT can be in the path
>
> - Destination address =3D real destination address
> - Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, adding an=
d
> removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc
> - Latest proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is proxied=
=E2=80=9D so that
> a proxy can intercept it
>
> WH> indeed or not intercept it based on the indication
>
>
> Plain Mode
> - Source address =3D real source
>
> WH> could also be NATed in some use cases
>
> - Destination address =3D proxy destination address
> - Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination address
>
> WH> or SRC address
>
>
> So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main difference is that
> Plain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas the transparent mod=
e
> does not change src/dst addresses?
>
> WH> the main difference is mainly DST IP is changed to get explicit
> routing to the proxy versus being implicit in the transparent case
>
>
>
> OK, so my understanding appears correct here.
>
> WH> yes
>
>
>
> The issue I see with a generic proxy bit is that it does not contain any
> context about what kind of proxy is being intercepted. You could be sendi=
ng
> in good faith expecting it to be picked up by Proxy from Operator A, but =
in
> fact is picked up by Operator B.
>
> WH> the network assisted proxy is mainly targeting single
> operator/controlled operator use cases to avoid these issues.
>
>
> As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not MPTCP-specific =
and is
> simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that follows is actually ta=
rgeted for
> IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is entirely transport-agnostic. If the=
 HAG could
> know where to find a proxy (e.g. a well-known anycast address) then
> addresses could be rewritten and packets forwarded, with no need for any
> MPTCP protocol changes.
>
> WH> you would still need to know the original destination IP@ that the
> application wanted to go to.
>
>
>
> Which is the point of the signalling protocol - the proposed =E2=80=9Cpla=
in mode
> option=E2=80=9D which is actually carried in the payload. My issue with t=
his is
> that this is _not MPTCP-specific_. This is simply a signal above the
> transport layer to inform a proxy what the real destination is.
>
>
>
> WH> I hear, you and I understand but we have an explicit use case for thi=
s
> with MPTCP and so far not in any other protocol. Hence I think it is good
> to extend MPTCP with this capability and liase with other WG(s) about thi=
s.
>
>
>
> While you may have a use-case for having proxies work with your MPTCP
> solution, it does not directly follow that the MPTCP protocol or WG is th=
e
> best place to specify how the proxy works. This really does seem like a
> proxy solution that can be made more generic, and at the very least belon=
gs
> as a protocol that is run within the MPTCP stream. This is what the SOCKS
> protocol does, and there is no reason you can't run SOCKS over MPTCP, or
> create a new variant of SOCKS or a similar protocol that you will run on
> top of MPTCP for your solution. Indeed, it could be seen as a benefit to
> work on the proxying solution independently from MPTCP, since that way it
> can be used for other transports. The end result will be the same, and th=
e
> architecture will be cleaner.
>
>
>
> WH> given the extension is specific in TCP?MPTCP since we carry the
> information in a SYN packet it becomes specific to the protocol and hence=
 I
> still believe it fits.
>
>
>
> The information is actually carried in the payload. So, it is not really
> part of TCP/MPTCP. Carrying it in the SYN is just because TCP does not
> prevent carrying data in the SYN-segment.
>
>
>
> WH> we added it in the payload due to limited option space available in T=
CP
>
>
>
> Other transport mechanisms have other means and can adopt a similar
> information element but the way the protocol consumes it is specific and
> should be done in the protocol afais.
>
>
>
> I disagree that the information is consumed by MPTCP. It is rather
> consumed by the application sitting right on top of MPTCP, because this i=
s
> the one that is reading the data out of the MPTCP-stream and forwarding i=
t
> over to final destination. And MPTCP itself is not really using the
> plain-mode option.
>
>
>
> If you look at Socks v4, it is actually carrying the exact same
> information than the plain-mode option (besides the protocol-field). So, =
an
> implementation could easily put the Socks-client request in the
> SYN-payload. The proxy who receives that can then (after connecting to th=
e
> final server) reply in the SYN/ACK with the Socks-server option in the
> SYN/ACK's payload. And from there on, the data will be forwarded from one
> side to the other.
>
>
>
> This would be a low-overhead handshake for the proxy without the chatty
> overhead of Socks v5.
>
>
>
> WH> Latency matters here and people already experienced that additional
> signaling messages with its roundtrip  degrades QoE. Even adding 2 messag=
e
> is not the right way to go and hence we want to add the informational
> elements in the messages in MPTCP.
>
>
>
> I am 100% sure that the way I described it is not adding more latency
> compared to the current plain-mode option proposal. Can you please explai=
n,
> how my suggestion "degrades QoE" (compared to the plain-mode option) ?
>
>
>
> WH10> my understanding is that you propose to add an additional out of
> band singling which need to negotiate the capabilities. This means extra
> signaling on top of what MPTCP does, so this is where your extra latency
> comes from.
>
>
>
> As such we need to enhance the information elements in TCP/MPTCP protocol
> to indicate that there is some data available that needs to be consumed b=
y
> the proxy to operate properly. You need to extend the protocol to provide
> this capability in my view.
>
> The addition of adding a sub flow in MPTCP also provides addressing
> information and we need similar information for the MPTCP proxy (do the
> proxy or not, src/dst info, etc).
>
> We carry the data in the SYN due to limited option space but we could
> carry it in the option data as well. As such it becomes TCP specific and =
we
> believe it is best to leverage on the TCP framework to extend  this
> capability.
>
>
>
> Wrt. to *"as such it becomes TCP specific" *: Just because one
> arbitrarily puts some information in the TCP-option space does not make t=
he
> information TCP-specific by design...
>
> WH10> if 99% of what we need is in the MPTCP stack why should we not use
> this. We have multi-path, we get congestion management, re-ordering, etc =
in
> MPTCP and we need this for the hybrid access use case. Our goal is to
> extend the capabilities on top of MPTCP since it does not of what we need=
.
> We just need to enhance it with some capabilities specific to the hybrid
> access use case and if you don=E2=80=99t need them you can avoid them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Let's put MPTCP aside for a moment.
>
>
>
> Basically, the network that you are targeting has some characteristics
> that make a certain transport protocol more adapt for a certain leg of th=
e
> end-to-end path. So, the goal is to enable the use of a special transport
> protocol over this leg of the network.
>
> To do so, the byte-stream that is sent by the application from the
> client/server needs to be taken out of TCP and transmitted over this
> special transport protocol. Thus, the TCP-connection is being terminated =
at
> the CPE such that the byte-stream can be extracted out of TCP. This
> byte-stream is then sent over the specialized transport protocol to the
> concentrator on a specific port-number. The concentrator then terminates
> the special transport protocol so that it can extract the byte-stream out
> of it and sends the byte-stream to the final server over TCP.
>
> Now, as the concentrator is not always on the IP-path between CPE and
> server, the CPE actually needs to use the destination IP-address of the
> concentrator in the segments that are using the specialized transport
> protocol. So, this is the "plain-mode" that you are addressing. To let th=
e
> concentrator send the byte-stream to the final server, the CPE needs to
> tell to the concentrator which IP the server has. To do so, the CPE place=
s
> this information in the payload of the first segment that it sends to the
> concentrator by using the specialized transport protocol. This is exactly
> what you are doing with the plain-mode option.
>
>
>
>
>
> As you can see, in the above description of the hybrid access solution,
> there is nothing that is specific to MPTCP and nothing specific to the us=
e
> of multiple interfaces or hybrid accesses. The sole use of the plain-mode
> option is to convey to the concentrator what the IP-address of the server
> is. Whether or not to do proxying is simply done by addressing the traffi=
c
> to the concentrator by using a the proxy port-number.
>
>
>
> So, standardizing this is probably useful. But should not be done as part
> of MPTCP, because the plain-mode option is orthogonal to MPTCP.
>
>
>
> WH10> I get what you say but if I can re-use 99% of what is in MPTCP why
> should I define a new protocol to achieve the same thing. I can add
> something to the protocol to achieve the functionality, why should we not
> leverage this. This is why we call this an MPTCP proxy. If people don=E2=
=80=99t
> want to use it they don=E2=80=99t have to consume it. If people want to u=
se the
> mechanism in another protocol they can. We just want to add this capabili=
ty
> on top of an already existing MPTCP protocol which give us the capabiliti=
es
> we need. that=E2=80=99s all
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Christoph
>
>
>

--001a1149310aa36de905396d4b9a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Absolutely, and I&#39;m excited to see MPTCP finding a use in this way :-)<=
div><br></div><div>My concerns are around pragmatism too: firstly, ensuring=
 any solution does not add complexity or introduce issues in the base MPTCP=
=C2=A0protocol where it is not required, or=C2=A0for what is a specialist u=
se; and secondly, that you are not limiting functionality of your solution=
=C2=A0<span></span>in the future.</div><div><br></div><div>However, I do no=
t think there is much point continuing this debate until we see the consoli=
dated proxy draft (plain mode + transparent) which was discussed in Berlin =
- this may well make the goals of this work=C2=A0clearer.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Regards,</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On Friday, 5 August 2016,  &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Re-,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Fully agree with Wim. It is all=
 about a pragmatic solution to an engineering problem.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De=C2=A0:</span></b><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> multipathtcp [mailto:<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B=
%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org&#39;);" target=3D"_bl=
ank">multipathtcp-bounces@<wbr>ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)<br>
<b>Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0:</b> ven</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">dredi 5 ao=C3=BBt 2016 15:3=
3<br>
<b>=C3=80=C2=A0:</b> Christoph Paasch<br>
<b>Cc=C2=A0:</b> MultiPath TCP - IETF WG<br>
<b>Objet=C2=A0:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two=
-ended proxy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">In-line<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black">Christoph Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#3=
9;cvml&#39;,&#39;cpaasch@apple.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">cpaasch@apple.=
com</a>&gt; on behalf of Christoph Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%=
7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;cpaasch@apple.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">cpaasch@=
apple.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday 5 August 2016 at 08:00<br>
<b>To: </b>Wim Henderickx &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39=
;,&#39;wim.henderickx@nokia.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">wim.henderickx@no=
kia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Tommy Pauly &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&=
#39;tpauly@apple.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;, Mu=
ltiPath TCP - IETF WG &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#=
39;multipathtcp@ietf.org&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-end=
ed proxy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Hello,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">inline...<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On Aug 4, 2016, at 9:23 PM,=
 Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml=
&#39;,&#39;wim.henderickx@nokia.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">wim.henderick=
x@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">In-line sorry was on the ro=
ad yesterday<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black">Christoph Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#3=
9;cvml&#39;,&#39;cpaasch@apple.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">cpaasch@apple.=
com</a>&gt; on behalf of Christoph Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%=
7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;cpaasch@apple.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">cpaasch@=
apple.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday 4 August 2016 at 06:32<br>
<b>To: </b>Wim Henderickx &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39=
;,&#39;wim.henderickx@nokia.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">wim.henderickx@no=
kia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Tommy Pauly &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&=
#39;tpauly@apple.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;, Mu=
ltiPath TCP - IETF WG &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#=
39;multipathtcp@ietf.org&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-end=
ed proxy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Hello,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On Aug 3, 2016, at 9:14 PM,=
 Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml=
&#39;,&#39;wim.henderickx@nokia.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">wim.henderick=
x@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;=
tpauly@apple.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Tommy Pauly &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;t=
pauly@apple.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday 4 August 2016 at 02:10<br>
<b>To: </b>Wim Henderickx &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39=
;,&#39;wim.henderickx@nokia.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">wim.henderickx@no=
kia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Alan Ford &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#3=
9;alan.ford@gmail.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
, &quot;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;multipathtcp@ie=
tf.org&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;multipathtcp@ietf.org&#39;);"=
 target=3D"_blank">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-end=
ed proxy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On Aug 3, 2016, at 11:58 AM=
, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvm=
l&#39;,&#39;wim.henderickx@nokia.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">wim.henderic=
kx@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Alan, in-line<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black">Alan Ford &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&=
#39;,&#39;alan.ford@gmail.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">alan.ford@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday 3 August 2016 at 09:20<br>
<b>To: </b>Wim Henderickx &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39=
;,&#39;wim.henderickx@nokia.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">wim.henderickx@no=
kia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Rao Shoaib &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#=
39;rao.shoaib@oracle.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">rao.shoaib@oracle.com</a=
>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;multipatht=
cp@ietf.org&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<=
a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;multipathtcp@ietf.org&#3=
9;);" target=3D"_blank">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-end=
ed proxy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Hi Wim, all,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Comment inline...<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On 2 Aug 2016, at 20:11, He=
nderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE) &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#3=
9;,&#39;wim.henderickx@nokia.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">wim.henderickx@n=
okia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On 02/08/16 15:52, &quot;A=
lan Ford&quot; &lt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><a href=3D"javascript:_e=
(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;alan.ford@gmail.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank"><=
span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;">alan.ford@gmail.com</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
>&gt;
 wrote:<br>
<br style=3D"text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">I=E2=80=99m trying to dist=
inguish the various use cases; can we confirm this is correct?<br>
<br>
Transparent Mode<br>
- Source address =3D real source address<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH&gt; not always since NA=
T can be in the path<br style=3D"text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">- Destination address =3D =
real destination address<br>
- Transparent proxies create MPTCP functionality in the stream, adding and =
removing the MPTCP headers, mapping seq numa, etc<br>
- Latest proposal is to add an indicator to say =E2=80=9Cthis is proxied=E2=
=80=9D so that a proxy can intercept it<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH&gt; indeed or not inter=
cept it based on the indication<br style=3D"text-align:start;word-spacing:0=
px">
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><br>
Plain Mode<br>
- Source address =3D real source<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH&gt; could also be NATed=
 in some use cases<br style=3D"text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">- Destination address =3D =
proxy destination address<br>
- Signalling protocol inside indicates real destination address<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH&gt; or SRC address<br s=
tyle=3D"text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><br>
So - please correct me if this is wrong - but the main difference is that P=
lain Mode is targeted towards a proxy server whereas the transparent mode d=
oes not change src/dst addresses?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH&gt; the main difference=
 is mainly DST IP is changed to get explicit routing to the proxy versus be=
ing implicit in the transparent case</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">OK, so my understanding app=
ears correct here.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH&gt; yes<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;text-align:start;=
word-spacing:0px">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">The issue I see with a gen=
eric proxy bit is that it does not contain any context about what kind of p=
roxy is being intercepted. You could be sending in good
 faith expecting it to be picked up by Proxy from Operator A, but in fact i=
s picked up by Operator B.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH&gt; the network assiste=
d proxy is mainly targeting single operator/controlled operator use cases t=
o avoid these issues.<br style=3D"text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><br>
As I=E2=80=99ve said before, the plain mode option is not MPTCP-specific an=
d is simple a signal that says =E2=80=9Ceverything that follows is actually=
 targeted for IP address a.b.c.d=E2=80=9D - this is entirely transport-agno=
stic. If the HAG could know where to find a proxy (e.g.
 a well-known anycast address) then addresses could be rewritten and packet=
s forwarded, with no need for any MPTCP protocol changes.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH&gt; you would still nee=
d to know the original destination IP@ that the application wanted to go to=
.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Which is the point of the s=
ignalling protocol - the proposed =E2=80=9Cplain mode option=E2=80=9D which=
 is actually carried in the payload. My issue with this is that this is
 _not MPTCP-specific_. This is simply a signal above the transport layer to=
 inform a proxy what the real destination is.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH&gt; I hear, you and I un=
derstand but we have an explicit use case for this with MPTCP and so far no=
t in any other protocol. Hence I think it is good to extend
 MPTCP with this capability and liase with other WG(s) about this.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">While you may have a use-ca=
se for having proxies work with your MPTCP solution, it does not directly f=
ollow that the MPTCP protocol or WG is the best place to
 specify how the proxy works. This really does seem like a proxy solution t=
hat can be made more generic, and at the very least belongs as a protocol t=
hat is run within the MPTCP stream. This is what the SOCKS protocol does, a=
nd there is no reason you can&#39;t
 run SOCKS over MPTCP, or create a new variant of SOCKS or a similar protoc=
ol that you will run on top of MPTCP for your solution. Indeed, it could be=
 seen as a benefit to work on the proxying solution independently from MPTC=
P, since that way it can be used
 for other transports. The end result will be the same, and the architectur=
e will be cleaner.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH&gt; given the extension =
is specific in TCP?MPTCP since we carry the information in a SYN packet it =
becomes specific to the protocol and hence I still believe
 it fits.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">The information is actually=
 carried in the payload. So, it is not really part of TCP/MPTCP. Carrying i=
t in the SYN is just because TCP does not prevent carrying
 data in the SYN-segment.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH&gt; we added it in the p=
ayload due to limited option space available in TCP<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Other transport mechanisms =
have other means and can adopt a similar information element but the way th=
e protocol consumes it is specific and should be done in
 the protocol afais.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">I disagree that the informa=
tion is consumed by MPTCP. It is rather consumed by the application sitting=
 right on top of MPTCP, because this is the one that is
 reading the data out of the MPTCP-stream and forwarding it over to final d=
estination. And MPTCP itself is not really using the plain-mode option.<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If you look at Socks v4, it=
 is actually carrying the exact same information than the plain-mode option=
 (besides the protocol-field). So, an implementation could
 easily put the Socks-client request in the SYN-payload. The proxy who rece=
ives that can then (after connecting to the final server) reply in the SYN/=
ACK with the Socks-server option in the SYN/ACK&#39;s payload. And from the=
re on, the data will be forwarded from
 one side to the other.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">This would be a low-overhea=
d handshake for the proxy without the chatty overhead of Socks v5.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH&gt; Latency matters here=
 and people already experienced that additional signaling messages with its=
 roundtrip =C2=A0degrades QoE. Even adding 2 message is not the
 right way to go and hence we want to add the informational elements in the=
 messages in MPTCP.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">I am 100% sure that the way=
 I described it is not adding more latency compared to the current plain-mo=
de option proposal. Can you please explain, how my suggestion
 &quot;degrades QoE&quot; (compared to the plain-mode option) ?<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH10&gt; my understanding i=
s that you propose to add an additional out of band singling which need to =
negotiate the capabilities. This means extra signaling on top
 of what MPTCP does, so this is where your extra latency comes from.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">As such we need to enhance =
the information elements in TCP/MPTCP protocol to indicate that there is so=
me data available that needs to be consumed by the proxy
 to operate properly. You need to extend the protocol to provide this capab=
ility in my view.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">The addition of adding a su=
b flow in MPTCP also provides addressing information and we need similar in=
formation for the MPTCP proxy (do the proxy or not, src/dst
 info, etc).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">We carry the data in the SY=
N due to limited option space but we could carry it in the option data as w=
ell. As such it becomes TCP specific and we believe it is
 best to leverage on the TCP framework to extend =C2=A0this capability.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Wrt. to=C2=A0<i>&quot;as su=
ch it becomes TCP specific&quot;=C2=A0</i>: Just because one arbitrarily pu=
ts some information in the TCP-option space does not make the information T=
CP-specific
 by design...<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH10&gt; if 99% of what we =
need is in the MPTCP stack why should we not use this. We have multi-path, =
we get congestion management, re-ordering, etc in MPTCP and
 we need this for the hybrid access use case. Our goal is to extend the cap=
abilities on top of MPTCP since it does not of what we need. We just need t=
o enhance it with some capabilities specific to the hybrid access use case =
and if you don=E2=80=99t need them you can
 avoid them.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Let&#39;s put MPTCP aside f=
or a moment.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Basically, the network that=
 you are targeting has some characteristics that make a certain transport p=
rotocol more adapt for a certain leg of the end-to-end path.
 So, the goal is to enable the use of a special transport protocol over thi=
s leg of the network.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">To do so, the byte-stream t=
hat is sent by the application from the client/server needs to be taken out=
 of TCP and transmitted over this special transport protocol.
 Thus, the TCP-connection is being terminated at the CPE such that the byte=
-stream can be extracted out of TCP. This byte-stream is then sent over the=
 specialized transport protocol to the concentrator on a specific port-numb=
er. The concentrator then terminates
 the special transport protocol so that it can extract the byte-stream out =
of it and sends the byte-stream to the final server over TCP.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Now, as the concentrator is=
 not always on the IP-path between CPE and server, the CPE actually needs t=
o use the destination IP-address of the concentrator in
 the segments that are using the specialized transport protocol. So, this i=
s the &quot;plain-mode&quot; that you are addressing. To let the concentrat=
or send the byte-stream to the final server, the CPE needs to tell to the c=
oncentrator which IP the server has. To do
 so, the CPE places this information in the payload of the first segment th=
at it sends to the concentrator by using the specialized transport protocol=
. This is exactly what you are doing with the plain-mode option.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">As you can see, in the abov=
e description of the hybrid access solution, there is nothing that is speci=
fic to MPTCP and nothing specific to the use of multiple
 interfaces or hybrid accesses. The sole use of the plain-mode option is to=
 convey to the concentrator what the IP-address of the server is. Whether o=
r not to do proxying is simply done by addressing the traffic to the concen=
trator by using a the proxy port-number.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">So, standardizing this is p=
robably useful. But should not be done as part of MPTCP, because the plain-=
mode option is orthogonal to MPTCP.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">WH10&gt; I get what you say=
 but if I can re-use 99% of what is in MPTCP why should I define a new prot=
ocol to achieve the same thing. I can add something to the
 protocol to achieve the functionality, why should we not leverage this. Th=
is is why we call this an MPTCP proxy. If people don=E2=80=99t want to use =
it they don=E2=80=99t have to consume it. If people want to use the mechani=
sm in another protocol they can. We just want to
 add this capability on top of an already existing MPTCP protocol which giv=
e us the capabilities we need. that=E2=80=99s all<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Christoph<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--001a1149310aa36de905396d4b9a--


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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] towards a potential work item on two-ended proxy
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From nobody Mon Aug  8 01:07:12 2016
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From: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 01:07:03 -0700
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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 2/5 - Reliability
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Hi Alan,

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Yoshi,
>
> Inline...
>
>
> On Friday, 5 August 2016, Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Alan,
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Yoshi,
>>>
>>> Inline=E2=80=A6
>>>
>>> On 4 Aug 2016, at 07:36, Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Fabien,
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne <fabien.duchene@ucl=
ouv
>>> ain.be> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
>>>> discuss the different contributions proposed
>>>> inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
>>>>
>>>> This is the part 2/5 : reliability.
>>>>
>>>> In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR options can be attached to segments carrying data
>>>> or pure acknowledgements.
>>>> In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 addresses
>>>> and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will be often sent as pure
>>>> acknowledgements.
>>>> This implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which could be
>>>> problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allow the establishment o=
f
>>>> additional subflows, as in load balancing scenarios.
>>>> We propose to rely on the "E" (Echo) flag in the ADD_ADDR option.
>>>> This echo flag is used to acknolwedge a received ADD_ADDR by echoing i=
t.
>>>> If the acknowledgement is not received, the ADD_ADDR option will be
>>>> retransmitted up to N times.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have several comments on this. Please let me know if I miss something=
.
>>>
>>> 1=EF=BC=9A Do we really need ADD_ADDR reliability in all cases? An end =
node
>>> might want to send ADD_ADDR for 'just in case' rather than for "I want =
you
>>> to use this"
>>> BTW, I'm not sure if the draft tries to replace the current ADD_ADDR or
>>> to propose an additional ADD_ADDR option.
>>>
>>>
>>> The argument is that by making it reliable, you only need to send it
>>> once to know it=E2=80=99s been received, even if the far end does not u=
se it.
>>>
>> 2: The sender cannot be sure whether the info in ADD_ADDR will be used o=
r
>>> not. It depends on the peer's decision.
>>> I might prefer re-transmitting ADD_ADDR up to N times when the sender
>>> doesn't receive MP_JOIN to the address for a certain amount of time.
>>>
>>> As above, by making it reliable you only need to send it once to know
>>> it=E2=80=99s been received, even if the far end chooses not to use it.
>>>
>>
>> Hmm. if a sender wants the peer to use specific address (such as a load
>> balancer case), I can understand that we want to make it reliable. But, =
if
>> the sender doesn't care, I'm not very sure the reason to make it reliabl=
e
>> or send ADD_ADDR frequently.
>>
>
> If local policy means the subflow won't be immediately established,
> there's no way of knowing if it's been received.
>
> Similarly, if the subflow can't be created due to e.g. firewall/network
> issues, it would be useful to know if the ADD_ADDR had nevertheless been
> received, so you could stop sending it.
>

Right. But, let's say we send ADD_ADDR at once in 3 mins, is it such
serious waste of resources?  If we don't care if the peer uses the address
or not, we might not need to send it so frequently and the logic can be
simpler. Also, if the peer uses the address in 3 mins, all we need to send
is one segment.



>> I personally think this is a trade-off point. We are trying to introduce
>> some complexities in the protocol to send TCP options reliably.  I might
>> want to see some benefits to compensate it.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I think I=E2=80=99m sold on this idea now, given the additional recent =
comments.
>>> I support this.
>>>
>>> 3: "the receiving host MUST return the exact option.." Although it is
>>> MUST, can we always do this? There might be a situation where there is =
no
>>> option space or no segment to send.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would assume the same rules as ADD_ADDR are followed, so it=E2=80=99s=
 sent on
>>> a duplicate ACK in that case.
>>>
>>
>> Hmm. If we apply the same rules to this, it may need to send a dupack fo=
r
>> a dupack and may be repeated N times. I still need to think about it, bu=
t
>> it doesn't look pretty..
>>
>
> OK, we wouldn't need to retransmit the echo, unless a new ADD_ADDR comes
> in. You raise a good point though about rate limiting however, an
> implementation couldn't just keep on retransmitting for ever, and needs t=
o
> assume the options are being lost and stop sending them.
>

I think we can prepare some rules here to avoid potential issues and corner
cases.
if we can make them simple enough, then we are good. But, I'm just not very
sure yet.

--
Yoshi

--001a11438460d3b69705398ae653
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Alan,<div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Alan Ford <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">alan.=
ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Y=
oshi,<div><br></div><div>Inline...<div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br>On Friday,=
 5 August 2016, Yoshifumi Nishida &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nishida@sfc.wide.ad=
.jp" target=3D"_blank">nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Alan,<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Alan Ford =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-=
width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Hi Yoshi,<div><br></div><di=
v>Inline=E2=80=A6</div><div><br><div><span><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>O=
n 4 Aug 2016, at 07:36, Yoshifumi Nishida &lt;<a>nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp</a>=
&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;f=
ont-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px">Hi Fabien,<div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne<span>=C2=A0<=
/span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>fabien.duchene@uclouv<wbr>ain.be</a>&gt;</sp=
an><span>=C2=A0</span>wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;bord=
er-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hello,<br><br>As agreed in=
 Berlin during IETF96, I&#39;m sending a series of emails to<br>discuss the=
 different contributions proposed<br>inhttps://<a href=3D"http://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">datatracker.ietf.org<wbr>/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-a<wbr>ddr/</a=
><br><br>This is the part 2/5 : reliability.<br><br>In RFC6824, ADD_ADDR op=
tions can be attached to segments carrying data<br>or pure acknowledgements=
.<br>In practice, notably given the length of ADD_ADDR with IPv6 addresses<=
br>and the HMAC, it is very likely that they will be often sent as pure<br>=
acknowledgements.<br>This implies that ADD_ADDR are sent unreliably, which =
could be<br>problematic when the ADD_ADDR is required to allow the establis=
hment of<br>additional subflows, as in load balancing scenarios.<br>We prop=
ose to rely on the &quot;E&quot; (Echo) flag in the ADD_ADDR option.<br>Thi=
s echo flag is used to acknolwedge a received ADD_ADDR by echoing it.<br>If=
 the acknowledgement is not received, the ADD_ADDR option will be<br>retran=
smitted up to N times.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have several c=
omments on this. Please let me know if I miss something.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>1=EF=BC=9A Do we really need ADD_ADDR reliability in all cases? An e=
nd node might want to send ADD_ADDR for &#39;just in case&#39; rather than =
for &quot;I want you to use this&quot;=C2=A0</div><div>BTW, I&#39;m not sur=
e if the draft tries to replace the current ADD_ADDR or to propose an addit=
ional ADD_ADDR option.</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><br></div></span><div>The argument is that by making it reliable, you only=
 need to send it once to know it=E2=80=99s been received, even if the far e=
nd does not use it.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><span><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font=
-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>2: The sender ca=
nnot be sure whether the info in ADD_ADDR will be used or not. It depends o=
n the peer&#39;s decision. =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>I might prefer re-transmi=
tting ADD_ADDR up to N times when the sender doesn&#39;t receive MP_JOIN to=
 the address for a certain amount of time.</div><div><br></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></blockquote></span><div>As above, by making it reliable =
you only need to send it once to know it=E2=80=99s been received, even if t=
he far end chooses not to use it.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>Hmm. if a sender wants the peer to use specific address (suc=
h as a load balancer case), I can understand that we want to make it reliab=
le. But, if the sender doesn&#39;t care, I&#39;m not very sure the reason t=
o make it reliable or send ADD_ADDR frequently.</div></div></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div></div></div>If local policy means the subflow=C2=A0=
won&#39;t be immediately established, there&#39;s no way of knowing if it&#=
39;s been received.</div><div><br></div><div>Similarly, if the subflow can&=
#39;t be created due to e.g. firewall/network issues, it would be useful to=
 know if the ADD_ADDR had nevertheless been received, so you could stop sen=
ding it.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Right. But, let&#39;s say we=
 send ADD_ADDR at once in 3 mins, is it such serious waste of resources?=C2=
=A0 If we don&#39;t care if the peer uses the address or not, we might not =
need to send it so frequently and the logic can be simpler. Also, if the pe=
er uses the address in 3 mins, all we need to send is one segment.</div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>I personally think this is a=
 trade-off point. We are trying to introduce some complexities in the proto=
col to send TCP options reliably.=C2=A0 I might want to see some benefits t=
o compensate it.<br></div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-s=
tyle:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div><div>I think I=E2=80=99m=
 sold on this idea now, given the additional recent comments. I support thi=
s.</div><span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;w=
hite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">3: &quot;the receiving host MUST return the exact optio=
n..&quot; Although it is MUST, can we always do this? There might be a situ=
ation where there is no option space or no segment to send. =C2=A0</div></d=
iv></div></div></div></blockquote></span></div><br></div><div>I would assum=
e the same rules as ADD_ADDR are followed, so it=E2=80=99s sent on a duplic=
ate ACK in that case.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hmm. If w=
e apply the same rules to this, it may need to send a dupack for a dupack a=
nd may be repeated N times. I still need to think about it, but it doesn&#3=
9;t look pretty..</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span=
><div>OK, we wouldn&#39;t need to retransmit the echo, unless a new ADD_ADD=
R comes in. You raise a good point though about rate limiting however, an i=
mplementation couldn&#39;t just keep on retransmitting for ever, and needs =
to assume the options are being lost and stop sending them.</div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>I think we can prepare some rules here to avoid pote=
ntial issues and corner cases.=C2=A0</div><div>if we can make them simple e=
nough, then we are good. But, I&#39;m just not very sure yet.=C2=A0</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>--</div><div>Yoshi</div></div></div></div></div>

--001a11438460d3b69705398ae653--


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I had thought a potential charter item could be something on the lines of:

<Experimental Extensions to the MPTCP protocol to enable an MPTCP-aware mid=
dlebox to act as an MPTCP proxy for an end host, which runs TCP. One or bot=
h end hosts may be MPTCP-unaware, and the MPTCP proxy(s) is (are) not neces=
sarily on the default routing path(s). The working group will also detail, =
in an Informational document, the use cases /deployment scenarios and the o=
perational considerations.>
However, if I get the discussion right, this is not quite right.
* assume a controlled environment (to avoid a problem where the message rea=
ches the 'wrong' proxy) (IETF usually prefers generally applicable protocol=
s)
* assume some (?additional) 'header swapping' protocol and a new signalling=
 protocol (not an mptcp extension - so probably in INTAREA WG's remit)

If the above is roughly right, then I think some extra work is needed befor=
e we can get a clear charter item. Can some of the work that isn't mptcp ex=
tensions be cleanly separated out? Can you be clear what deployment assumpt=
ions are being made (and preferably reduce them, so there is wider applicab=
ility). Personally I'd also find it very helpful if the plain/transparent '=
merged' draft could try and follow the guidance about protocol models in RF=
C4101 (personally I found the plain mode doc difficult to understand).

Thanks
phil




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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">I had thought a potential charter item could be something on the l=
ines of:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&lt;Experimental Extensions to the MPTCP protocol=
 to enable an MPTCP-aware middlebox to act as an MPTCP proxy for an end hos=
t, which runs TCP. One or both end hosts may be MPTCP-unaware, and the MPTC=
P proxy(s) is (are) not necessarily on
 the default routing path(s). The working group will also detail, in an Inf=
ormational document, the use cases /deployment scenarios and the operationa=
l considerations.&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">However, if I get the discussion right, this is not quite right.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">* assume a controlled environment (to avoid a problem where the me=
ssage reaches the &#8216;wrong&#8217; proxy) (IETF usually prefers generall=
y applicable protocols)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">* assume some (?additional) &#8216;header swapping&#8217; protocol=
 and a new signalling protocol (not an mptcp extension &#8211; so probably =
in INTAREA WG&#8217;s remit)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">If the above is roughly right, then I think some extra work is nee=
ded before we can get a clear charter item. Can some of the work that isn&#=
8217;t mptcp extensions be cleanly separated
 out? Can you be clear what deployment assumptions are being made (and pref=
erably reduce them, so there is wider applicability). Personally I&#8217;d =
also find it very helpful if the plain/transparent &#8216;merged&#8217; dra=
ft could try and follow the guidance about protocol
 models in RFC4101 (personally I found the plain mode doc difficult to unde=
rstand).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">phil<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_c96a67008ee045dda304a983cfb3de73rew09926dag03bdomain1sy_--


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Subject: [multipathtcp] draft minute for Berlin meeting
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Hi,
Sorry for the delay. We have uploaded a draft minute for Berlin meeting.
Thanks for lots of productive discussions.
Please take a look at https://tools.ietf.org/wg/mptcp/minutes and let us
know if you have some corrections or suggestions.

We appreciate Mirja and Olivier and Fabien for very precise note takings.

Thanks,
--
Yoshi & Phil

--001a113ce1463dfa320539b27557
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi,=C2=A0</div><div>Sorry for the delay. We have uplo=
aded a draft minute for Berlin meeting. Thanks for lots of productive discu=
ssions.</div><div>Please take a look at <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/w=
g/mptcp/minutes">https://tools.ietf.org/wg/mptcp/minutes</a> and let us kno=
w if you have some corrections or suggestions.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>We appreciate Mirja and Olivier and Fabien for very precise note takings=
.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>--</div><div>Yoshi &amp; Phil<=
/div></div>

--001a113ce1463dfa320539b27557--


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Subject: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 3/5 - Backup make after break
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Hello,

As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
discuss the different contributions proposed in:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/

This is the part 3/5 : Backup make after break.

There are use cases where hosts would prefer to establish an additional
subflow only after the failure of the initial one.
This would correspond to a break-before-make scenario. Multipath TCP did
not select between break-before-make and make-before-break.
We propose to support this distinction by adding the "B" (for backup)
flag in the ADD_ADDR option.
When set, this flag would indicate that the announced address should
only be used to establish subflows if all the subflows established with
addresses without the B flag have failed.

Cheers,

Fabien


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Cc: MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 3/5 - Backup make after break
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> On Aug 10, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne =
<fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
> discuss the different contributions proposed in:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
>=20
> This is the part 3/5 : Backup make after break.
>=20
> There are use cases where hosts would prefer to establish an =
additional
> subflow only after the failure of the initial one.
> This would correspond to a break-before-make scenario. Multipath TCP =
did
> not select between break-before-make and make-before-break.
> We propose to support this distinction by adding the "B" (for backup)
> flag in the ADD_ADDR option.
> When set, this flag would indicate that the announced address should
> only be used to establish subflows if all the subflows established =
with
> addresses without the B flag have failed.

+1 on this proposal!


Christoph



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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 1/5 - Load Balancing
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--001a113ab7164aa61b053a33f1cd
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Hello Fabien, all,

On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 5:18 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne <fabien.duchene@uclouv=
ain.be
> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I'm sending a series of emails to
> discuss the different contributions proposed
> inhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
>
> To allow Multipath TCP to operate for servers residing behind unmodified
> layer 4 load balancers we propose to define the "B" flag in the
> MP_CAPABLE option.
>
> This flag can only be used during the three-way handshake. When this
> flag is set, it indicates that the source IP address of the segment
> containing this flag does not accept the establishment of additional
> subflows for this connection. Otherwise, the source IP address of this
> segment can be used as destination address to create additional subflows.
>
> There are two use cases for this flag :
>
> - servers behind a load balancer can use this flag in the SYN+ACK to
> indicate that the IP address of the load balancer should not be used to
> establish subflows. Those servers will typically announce one or more
> other addresses with the ADD_ADDR option.
> - clients behind firewalls or NAT can use this flag in the SYN. If set
> in the SYN, the flag MUST also be set in the third ACK to support
> stateless servers.
>

I basically agree with "don't try to establish subflows with this" feature.
But, I am wondering if we can use MP_PRIO for this. (I also think it's fine
to use MP_CAPABLE as well if needed)

If we use this feature in MP_CAPBLE, we can only use this feature in the
first subflow.
If we use MP_PRIO, we can apply this feature to any subflows.
In addition, if the node want to change the status for some reasons, it can
send another MP_PRIO to update it.

Thanks,
--
Yoshi

--001a113ab7164aa61b053a33f1cd
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello Fabien, all,<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 5:18 AM, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be" target=
=3D"_blank">fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">Hello,<br>
<br>
As agreed in Berlin during IETF96, I&#39;m sending a series of emails to<br=
>
discuss the different contributions proposed<br>
inhttps://<a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-ad=
d-addr/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">datatracker.ietf.<wbr>org/doc=
/draft-duchene-mptcp-<wbr>add-addr/</a><br>
<br>
To allow Multipath TCP to operate for servers residing behind unmodified<br=
>
layer 4 load balancers we propose to define the &quot;B&quot; flag in the<b=
r>
MP_CAPABLE option.<br>
<br>
This flag can only be used during the three-way handshake. When this<br>
flag is set, it indicates that the source IP address of the segment<br>
containing this flag does not accept the establishment of additional<br>
subflows for this connection. Otherwise, the source IP address of this<br>
segment can be used as destination address to create additional subflows.<b=
r>
<br>
There are two use cases for this flag :<br>
<br>
- servers behind a load balancer can use this flag in the SYN+ACK to<br>
indicate that the IP address of the load balancer should not be used to<br>
establish subflows. Those servers will typically announce one or more<br>
other addresses with the ADD_ADDR option.<br>
- clients behind firewalls or NAT can use this flag in the SYN. If set<br>
in the SYN, the flag MUST also be set in the third ACK to support<br>
stateless servers.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I basically agree wi=
th &quot;don&#39;t try to establish subflows with this&quot; feature.</div>=
<div>But, I am wondering if we can use MP_PRIO for this. (I also think it&#=
39;s fine to use MP_CAPABLE as well if needed)</div><div><br></div><div>If =
we use this feature in MP_CAPBLE, we can only use this feature in the first=
 subflow.</div><div>If we use MP_PRIO, we can apply this feature to any sub=
flows.=C2=A0</div><div>In addition, if the node want to change the status f=
or some reasons, it can send another MP_PRIO to update it.</div><div><br></=
div><div>Thanks,</div><div>--</div><div>Yoshi=C2=A0</div></div></div></div>

--001a113ab7164aa61b053a33f1cd--


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To: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>, =?UTF-8?Q?Fabien_Duch=c3=aane?= <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 1/5 - Load Balancing
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Yoshifumi,

>
>     There are two use cases for this flag :
>
>     - servers behind a load balancer can use this flag in the SYN+ACK to
>     indicate that the IP address of the load balancer should not be used to
>     establish subflows. Those servers will typically announce one or more
>     other addresses with the ADD_ADDR option.
>     - clients behind firewalls or NAT can use this flag in the SYN. If set
>     in the SYN, the flag MUST also be set in the third ACK to support
>     stateless servers.
>
>
> I basically agree with "don't try to establish subflows with this" feature.
> But, I am wondering if we can use MP_PRIO for this. (I also think it's
> fine to use MP_CAPABLE as well if needed)

I think MP_CAPABLE is required for the addresses of the initial subflow. 
You cannot wait for an additional message (MP_PRIO or whatever) to 
determine whether you can use this address or not for subsequence 
subflows. This would delay the establishment of subflows.

> If we use this feature in MP_CAPBLE, we can only use this feature in the
> first subflow.
> If we use MP_PRIO, we can apply this feature to any subflows.
> In addition, if the node want to change the status for some reasons, it
> can send another MP_PRIO to update it.

If you used the bit in the MP_CAPABLE option to indicate that the 
address of the initial subflow should not be used and you later change 
your mind, you can simply send an ADD_ADDR option that advertises the 
same address as the initial subflow.

But this raises another question concerning the utilisation of addresses 
to create subflows. Consider two dual-homed hosts.

C ----- S
+-------+

C has two addresses, C1 and C2. S also has addresses S1 and S2. C does 
not accept subflows on C1 and C2.

The initial subflow is C1->S1. Neither C1 nor S1 should be used to 
establish subflows. S advertises S2 through an ADD_ADDR option.

At this point, C creates a new subflow C2->S2. S learns that address C2 
is also available. What should S do with the address C2 that it has 
learned ? Can this address be used to establish additional subflows ?
Should we add the same bit in the MP_JOIN option as in the MP_CAPABLE 
option to indicate that C2 should not be used to create subflows or 
should we simply say that only addresses advertised with ADD_ADDR can be 
used to create subflows ?


Olivier


From nobody Sun Aug 21 01:43:41 2016
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 1/5 - Load Balancing
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--94eb2c04c796420bb5053a90eda8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi Olivier,

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 1:18 AM, Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@
uclouvain.be> wrote:

> Yoshifumi,
>
>
>>     There are two use cases for this flag :
>>
>>     - servers behind a load balancer can use this flag in the SYN+ACK to
>>     indicate that the IP address of the load balancer should not be used
>> to
>>     establish subflows. Those servers will typically announce one or more
>>     other addresses with the ADD_ADDR option.
>>     - clients behind firewalls or NAT can use this flag in the SYN. If set
>>     in the SYN, the flag MUST also be set in the third ACK to support
>>     stateless servers.
>>
>>
>> I basically agree with "don't try to establish subflows with this"
>> feature.
>> But, I am wondering if we can use MP_PRIO for this. (I also think it's
>> fine to use MP_CAPABLE as well if needed)
>>
>
> I think MP_CAPABLE is required for the addresses of the initial subflow.
> You cannot wait for an additional message (MP_PRIO or whatever) to
> determine whether you can use this address or not for subsequence subflows.
> This would delay the establishment of subflows.


Right. If we care about the delay rather than conserving a flag, I think we
should use MP_CAPABLE.
But it seems that opening a subflow immediately is a bit orthogonal to
what's written in 3.10.2.
This might not be a major issue, though.


> If we use this feature in MP_CAPBLE, we can only use this feature in the
>> first subflow.
>> If we use MP_PRIO, we can apply this feature to any subflows.
>> In addition, if the node want to change the status for some reasons, it
>> can send another MP_PRIO to update it.
>>
>
> If you used the bit in the MP_CAPABLE option to indicate that the address
> of the initial subflow should not be used and you later change your mind,
> you can simply send an ADD_ADDR option that advertises the same address as
> the initial subflow.
>

I agree sending ADD_ADDR is another way for this. But, in my view,
 ADD_ADDR seems to be meant for notifying new addr and MP_PRIO is meant for
changing the attribute of the addr. Although this might be just my personal
preference.


> But this raises another question concerning the utilisation of addresses
> to create subflows. Consider two dual-homed hosts.
>
> C ----- S
> +-------+
>
> C has two addresses, C1 and C2. S also has addresses S1 and S2. C does not
> accept subflows on C1 and C2.
>
> The initial subflow is C1->S1. Neither C1 nor S1 should be used to
> establish subflows. S advertises S2 through an ADD_ADDR option.
>
> At this point, C creates a new subflow C2->S2. S learns that address C2 is
> also available. What should S do with the address C2 that it has learned ?
> Can this address be used to establish additional subflows ?
> Should we add the same bit in the MP_JOIN option as in the MP_CAPABLE
> option to indicate that C2 should not be used to create subflows or should
> we simply say that only addresses advertised with ADD_ADDR can be used to
> create subflows ?
>

I personally think the spec doesn't need to limit the candidate addresses
for subflows. I think a peer should be able to try any possible addresses
as long as its local policy allows.
So, I agree using a bit in MP_JOIN as long as we care about the delay
rather than conserving a flag.

--
Yoshi

--94eb2c04c796420bb5053a90eda8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Olivier,<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 1:18 AM, Olivier Bonaventure <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" target=
=3D"_blank">Olivier.Bonaventure@<wbr>uclouvain.be</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yoshifumi,<span><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 There are two use cases for this flag :<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - servers behind a load balancer can use this flag in the SYN=
+ACK to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 indicate that the IP address of the load balancer should not =
be used to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 establish subflows. Those servers will typically announce one=
 or more<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 other addresses with the ADD_ADDR option.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - clients behind firewalls or NAT can use this flag in the SY=
N. If set<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SYN, the flag MUST also be set in the third ACK to sup=
port<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stateless servers.<br>
<br>
<br>
I basically agree with &quot;don&#39;t try to establish subflows with this&=
quot; feature.<br>
But, I am wondering if we can use MP_PRIO for this. (I also think it&#39;s<=
br>
fine to use MP_CAPABLE as well if needed)<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
I think MP_CAPABLE is required for the addresses of the initial subflow. Yo=
u cannot wait for an additional message (MP_PRIO or whatever) to determine =
whether you can use this address or not for subsequence subflows. This woul=
d delay the establishment of subflows.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Righ=
t. If we care about the delay rather than conserving a flag, I think we sho=
uld use MP_CAPABLE.=C2=A0</div><div><div>But it seems that opening a subflo=
w immediately is a bit orthogonal to what&#39;s written in 3.10.2.</div></d=
iv><div>This might not be a major issue, though.<br></div><div>=C2=A0<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
If we use this feature in MP_CAPBLE, we can only use this feature in the<br=
>
first subflow.<br>
If we use MP_PRIO, we can apply this feature to any subflows.<br>
In addition, if the node want to change the status for some reasons, it<br>
can send another MP_PRIO to update it.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
If you used the bit in the MP_CAPABLE option to indicate that the address o=
f the initial subflow should not be used and you later change your mind, yo=
u can simply send an ADD_ADDR option that advertises the same address as th=
e initial subflow.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree sending ADD_=
ADDR is another way for this. But, in my view, =C2=A0ADD_ADDR seems to be m=
eant for notifying new addr and MP_PRIO is meant for changing the attribute=
 of the addr. Although this might be just my personal preference.</div><div=
>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
But this raises another question concerning the utilisation of addresses to=
 create subflows. Consider two dual-homed hosts.<br>
<br>
C ----- S<br>
+-------+<br>
<br>
C has two addresses, C1 and C2. S also has addresses S1 and S2. C does not =
accept subflows on C1 and C2.<br>
<br>
The initial subflow is C1-&gt;S1. Neither C1 nor S1 should be used to estab=
lish subflows. S advertises S2 through an ADD_ADDR option.<br>
<br>
At this point, C creates a new subflow C2-&gt;S2. S learns that address C2 =
is also available. What should S do with the address C2 that it has learned=
 ? Can this address be used to establish additional subflows ?<br>
Should we add the same bit in the MP_JOIN option as in the MP_CAPABLE optio=
n to indicate that C2 should not be used to create subflows or should we si=
mply say that only addresses advertised with ADD_ADDR can be used to create=
 subflows ?<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></blockquote><di=
v>=C2=A0</div><div>I personally think the spec doesn&#39;t need to limit th=
e candidate addresses for subflows. I think a peer should be able to try an=
y possible addresses as long as its local policy allows.</div><div>So, I ag=
ree using a bit in MP_JOIN as long as we care about the delay rather than c=
onserving a flag.</div><div><br></div><div>--</div><div>Yoshi</div></div><b=
r></div></div>

--94eb2c04c796420bb5053a90eda8--


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Trace format mptcp
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--001a113efda272b3e0053aaccbf8
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Hello all,


I am new to using MPTCP implementation in ns-2.34. I have successfully set
up ns-2.34. I get an error when I run the mptcp-sample.tcl, but can
visualize out.nam <http://out.tr> and out.tr. The error is something like
this:


*fatal. no mapping info was found. ackno 227265*
Also, I cannot clearly understand the trace file format for the out.tr
file. What does each column in the out.tr file from which we redirect
values to the mptc normal tcp 1 and normal tcp 2 files represent ?

Is it necessary to use normal tcp1 and tcp2 flows. I could have a single
sender and receiver. I mean n0 and n1 with its interface nodes and
intermediate nodes ??

Please do help me out in this regard.

Thanks & Regards,

-- 
Bhumika Parikh
Graduate Student
New Mexico State University

--001a113efda272b3e0053aaccbf8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello all,<br><br><br>I am new to using MPTCP impleme=
ntation in ns-2.34. I have successfully set up ns-2.34. I get an error when=
 I run the mptcp-sample.tcl, but can visualize <a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"=
http://out.tr" target=3D"_blank">out.nam</a> and <a rel=3D"nofollow" href=
=3D"http://out.tr" target=3D"_blank">out.tr</a>. The error is something lik=
e this:<br><br><b>fatal. no mapping info was found. ackno 227265<br></b><br=
>Also, I cannot clearly understand the trace file format for the <a rel=3D"=
nofollow" href=3D"http://out.tr" target=3D"_blank">out.tr</a> file. What do=
es each column in the <a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://out.tr" target=3D"=
_blank">out.tr</a> file from which we redirect values to the mptc normal tc=
p 1 and normal tcp 2 files represent ?<br><br></div>Is it necessary to use =
normal tcp1 and tcp2 flows. I could have a single sender and receiver. I me=
an n0 and n1 with its interface nodes and intermediate nodes ?? <br><div><b=
r>Please do help me out in this regard.<br>


<br>Thanks &amp; Regards,<br><br></div><div>-- <br></div><div>Bhumika Parik=
h<br></div><div>Graduate Student<br></div><div>New Mexico State University<=
br><br></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div><font color=3D"#888888"><br>=
</font><br></div></div>

--001a113efda272b3e0053aaccbf8--


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To: Bhumika Parikh <bparikh616@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Trace format mptcp
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--94eb2c14971e69eef4053ab7bc80
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Hi Bhumika,

Sorry, this ML is basically not used for specific implementations.
If you have questions about mptcp in ns-2.34 implementation, please contact
the author (I mean, me) rather than using this list.

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Bhumika Parikh <bparikh616@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I am new to using MPTCP implementation in ns-2.34. I have successfully set
> up ns-2.34. I get an error when I run the mptcp-sample.tcl, but can
> visualize out.nam <http://out.tr> and out.tr. The error is something like
> this:
>
>
> *fatal. no mapping info was found. ackno 227265*
>

Hmm. I'm not sure about this one. It can be a bug.

>
> Also, I cannot clearly understand the trace file format for the out.tr
> file. What does each column in the out.tr file from which we redirect
> values to the mptc normal tcp 1 and normal tcp 2 files represent ?
>

If you would like to understand the format of out.tr in general, you'll
need to check the ns-2 manual. The format of mptcp traffic is described in
the following URL. In a nutshell, mptcp trace format and tcp trace format
are similar, but mptcp trace has extra fields.

 https://code.google.com/archive/p/multipath-tcp/wikis/HowToUse.wiki

Is it necessary to use normal tcp1 and tcp2 flows. I could have a single
> sender and receiver. I mean n0 and n1 with its interface nodes and
> intermediate nodes ??
>

You don't need normal tcp flows.  I just put them as competitive flows in
order to demonstrate how the coupled congestion control in mptcp works.

Thanks,
--
Yoshi

--94eb2c14971e69eef4053ab7bc80
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Bhumika,<div><br></div><div>Sorry, this ML is basically=
 not used for specific implementations.</div><div>If you have questions abo=
ut mptcp in ns-2.34 implementation, please contact the author (I mean, me) =
rather than using this list.</div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Bhumika Parikh <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bparikh616@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>bparikh616@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-s=
tyle:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div>Hello all,<br><br>I am new to using MPTCP implementation in ns-2=
.34. I have successfully set up ns-2.34. I get an error when I run the mptc=
p-sample.tcl, but can visualize <a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://out.tr" =
target=3D"_blank">out.nam</a> and <a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://out.tr=
" target=3D"_blank">out.tr</a>. The error is something like this:<br><br><b=
>fatal. no mapping info was found. ackno 227265<br></b></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Hmm. I&#39;m not sure about this one. It can be a =
bug.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><b></b><br>Also, I c=
annot clearly understand the trace file format for the <a rel=3D"nofollow" =
href=3D"http://out.tr" target=3D"_blank">out.tr</a> file. What does each co=
lumn in the <a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://out.tr" target=3D"_blank">ou=
t.tr</a> file from which we redirect values to the mptc normal tcp 1 and no=
rmal tcp 2 files represent ?<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>If you would like to understand the format of <a href=3D"http://out.tr" t=
arget=3D"_blank">out.tr</a> in general, you&#39;ll need to check the ns-2 m=
anual. The format of mptcp traffic is described in the following URL. In a =
nutshell, mptcp trace format and tcp trace format are similar, but mptcp tr=
ace has extra fields.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://cod=
e.google.com/archive/p/multipath-tcp/wikis/HowToUse.wiki" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://code.google.com/<wbr>archive/p/multipath-tcp/wikis/<wbr>HowToUse.w=
iki</a></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-l=
eft-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Is it necessa=
ry to use normal tcp1 and tcp2 flows. I could have a single sender and rece=
iver. I mean n0 and n1 with its interface nodes and intermediate nodes ??=
=C2=A0</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You don&#39;t need normal tcp =
flows.=C2=A0 I just put them as competitive flows in order to demonstrate h=
ow the coupled congestion control in mptcp works.</div><div><br></div><div>=
Thanks,</div><div>--</div><div>Yoshi</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>=
</div>

--94eb2c14971e69eef4053ab7bc80--


From nobody Mon Aug 29 13:24:01 2016
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Subject: [multipathtcp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Multipath TCP of the IETF.

        Title           : Use Cases and Operational Experience with Multipath TCP
        Authors         : Olivier Bonaventure
                          Christoph Paasch
                          Gregory Detal
	Filename        : draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-06.txt
	Pages           : 35
	Date            : 2016-08-29

Abstract:
   This document discusses both use cases and operational experience
   with Multipath TCP in real world networks.  It lists several
   prominent use cases for which Multipath TCP has been considered and
   is being used.  It also gives insight to some heuristics and
   decisions that have helped to realize these use cases.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Tue Aug 30 06:53:25 2016
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Cc: draft-ietf-mptcp-experience@ietf.org, mptcp-chairs@ietf.org, multipathtcp@ietf.org, ietf@kuehlewind.net
Subject: [multipathtcp] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-06.txt> (Use Cases and Operational Experience with Multipath TCP) to Informational RFC
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The IESG has received a request from the Multipath TCP WG (mptcp) to
consider the following document:
- 'Use Cases and Operational Experience with Multipath TCP'
  <draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-06.txt> as Informational RFC

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2016-09-13. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   This document discusses both use cases and operational experience
   with Multipath TCP in real world networks.  It lists several
   prominent use cases for which Multipath TCP has been considered and
   is being used.  It also gives insight to some heuristics and
   decisions that have helped to realize these use cases.




The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience/ballot/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.




