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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
Thread-Index: AQHSMct3lkWjRHR8/UOwFgD4FUiIN6DFdN0w
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 10:24:35 +0000
Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D945B7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <428609FE-DE79-45CD-B668-EF95F409B593@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <8bed05c5-9f6f-04aa-8aa8-690aa3ce30f4@uclouvain.be> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com>
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Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi Med,

>> - But in S4, the two deployment scenarios, focuses purely on =
Scenarios 1 &
>> 3, not 2
>>=20
>=20
> [Med] The only UC#2-related deployment scenario I'm aware of is the =
datacenter case, where MPTCP is used inside the DC. This deployment =
scenario is not listed there because I thought it cannot be considered =
as ** network-assisted MPTCP ** deployment scenario.  =20

It=E2=80=99s in a document entitled =E2=80=9CNetwork-Assisted MPTCP=E2=80=9D=
 :-)

But in all seriousness it could be just as network-assisted as the other =
scenarios, if it were to transparently intercept the traffic.

>> In S5.2.1, the usage model is that data is explicitly targeted to the =
MCP.
>=20
> [Med] Yes.
>=20
>> in S5.2.2, implicit, it only works for Scenario 1 of S4.
>=20
> [Med] It works for both scenarios of S4.

OK, the diagram suggests only Scenario 1, but I can see how Scenario 3 =
would work as well. Could be worth adding another diagram.

> By the diagrams,
>> it needs to now that a destination is not MPTCP capable - how does it =
have
>> this knowledge?
>=20
> [Med] The default behavior is that it does convert the MPTCP =
connection into a TCP connection without requiring any knowledge about =
the destination. This default behavior is motivated by the current =
support of MPTCP at the servers side. The text can deal with =
optimization like the one you suggested, but we left those out of scope =
for the moment. =20
>=20
> Should it actually be intercepting the SYN/ACK from RM and
>> making adjustments there?
>=20
> [Med] See above. (various optimization triggers can be considered: =
inspect SYN/ACK, configured servers whitelist, etc.)
>=20
>>=20
>> This continues in the 5.2.2.1 discussion - what is the purpose of
>> MP_CONVERT in the implicit mode?
>=20
> [Med] It is there to distinguish native MPTCP connections that can be =
established from an MPTCP host from those that are required to be =
proxied. If the option is not included, this flow will experienced:
>=20
>    _________________MULTIPLE PATH CLIENT/SERVER___________
>   /                                                       \
>                |                              |
>    |           |                              |           |
>    |src:c2@    |src:uMCP@1             dst:s1@|src:uMCP@1 |
>    |<=3DMPTCP=3D=3D=3D=3D|=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>|<-TCP Leg->|
>    |    dst:s2@|                              |    dst:s2@|
>    |           |                              |           |
>   +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>   |C2|      | MCP |                         | MCP |      |S2|
>   +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>             Upstream                     Downstream
>=20
>       Example of a Broken E2E MPTCP Connection (On-path)
>=20
> While we wanted to achieve this:
>=20
>    _________________MULTIPLE PATH CLIENT/SERVER___________
>   /                                                       \
>                |                              |
>    |           |                              |           |
>    |src:c2@    |src:uMCP@1             dst:s1@|src:uMCP@1 |
>    |<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D|=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
MPTCP=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D>|
>    |    dst:s2@|                              |    dst:s2@|
>    |           |                              |           |
>   +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>   |C2|      | MCP |                         | MCP |      |S2|
>   +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>             Upstream                      Downstream
>=20
>     Example of a Successful E2E MPTCP Connection (On-path)

OK, so this is saying =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ve already been proxied, =
don=E2=80=99t proxy me again=E2=80=9D.

However, I don=E2=80=99t understand the scenario you=E2=80=99ve drawn =
above. In the =E2=80=9Cbroken=E2=80=9D case, the downstream MCP is =
converting MPTCP to TCP. But what you ideally want is a direct case to =
the destination? But you=E2=80=99ve already said above that the sender =
has no knowledge of whether the far end is MPTCP capable or not, so the =
downstream MCP should default to TCP (i.e. the =E2=80=9Cbroken=E2=80=9D =
case).

And furthermore, why is the client talking MPTCP, and being translated =
by an upstream MCP, when it=E2=80=99s already MPTCP? It=E2=80=99s either =
going to be explicit - and addressed to the MCP - or implicit, and =
intercepted - and in either way by the spec it will then be converted to =
TCP.

So what is the actual scenario where the above cases will exist?

> Is it just to say =E2=80=9Cif there=E2=80=99s an MCP on
>> this path, I would like it=E2=80=9C? This seems different from the =
use of it as
>> described in the plain mode draft (where it appears to be used for
>> explicit mode by signalling the target IP address).
>=20
> [Med] This use is compliant with the plain mode draft: the target IP =
address is optional.=20

So what does that mean? Does that mean =E2=80=9Cif there=E2=80=99s an =
MCP on the path I would like to use it=E2=80=9D ?

> You talk about
>> differentiating between =E2=80=9Cnative=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cproxied=E2=
=80=9D MPTCP connections, but how
>> would the initiator know this in implicit mode?
>=20
> [Med] An initiator located behind a CPE does not need to know that. =20=


So who does? The CPE needs to keep track of what data it sends to the =
MCP and which it sends direct?

>> I think this is a valuable document which explains how proxies can be =
used
>> to extend the benefits of MPTCP to connections where one or both end =
hosts
>> are not MPTCP-capable. It think this fits with the proxy charter item
>> today.
>=20
> [Med] Thank you.
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Re draft-boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode-09
>>=20
>> S3.1 - two issues:
>>=20
>> 1) How does the client know the server does not support MPTCP and =
thus
>> should be going through the proxy? Or does everything go through the
>> proxy?
>> (This is similar to the question in implicit mode of how does the MCP =
know
>> the server does not support MPTCP?)
>=20
> [Med] Optimization related to the support of MPTCP at the server side =
are optimizations that are left out of scope for the time being. =20
>=20
>>=20
>> 2) Why make MP_CONVERT appear to be be part of MPTCP, when it=E2=80=99s=
 not? In S4
>> you talk about it being included in the SYN payload - therefore =
it=E2=80=99s part
>> of the TCP payload. This is fine and aligns with what I=E2=80=99ve =
been saying
>> since IETF95 - the proposed protocol is not MPTCP-specific, and is =
simply
>> signalling the target at the start of the TCP payload.
>=20
> [Med] The option is likely to be included in the payload because of =
the limited TCP option space. Supplying long options in MPTCP SYN is a =
generic problem that is worth to be solved by the mptcp wg. A pragmatic =
approach is to grab some space in the payload to extend the TCP option =
space. For the sake of interoperability, a meaning will be associated =
with a flag of MP_CAPBALE to indicate that other options are present in =
the payload. We are building on that capability.
>=20
> This does not need
>> to be a MPTCP option to make this happen.
>>=20
>> To be clear - again - I have no issue with this work being done in =
MPTCP
>> WG, it is =E2=80=9Chow to use proxies to increase deployment of =
MPTCP=E2=80=9D. But this
>> particular document is not MPTCP-specific;
>=20
> [Med] It is MPTCP-specific for various reasons, e.g.,:
> * it solves an MPTCP problem (how to make use of MPTCP of one or both =
peers are not MPTCP compatible).=20

That does not affect the protocol itself.

> * it is deigned to not break native MPTCP connections

That does not make it MPTCP-specific.

> * it solves current MPTCP deployments problems with SOCKS.

That does not make it MPTCP-specific.

I feel like a broken record here but this signal does not need to be an =
MPTCP option because:
- It does not signal any information which is specific to the operation =
of MPTCP
- It does not need to be part of the MPTCP protocol in order to be =
implemented
- It does not need to be read or understood by any devices which are not =
MCPs or compliant end hosts (i.e. not by any other devices which =
implement MPTCP)

As specified, it sits in the TCP payload. This is the right place for =
it. It is a signal purely between an end host and the MCP.

Regards,
Alan



From nobody Wed Nov  2 22:29:12 2016
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Subject: [multipathtcp] draft agenda for Seoul meeting
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Hi,
I just uploaded the current draft agenda on the following URL.
Please note this is still a draft and let chairs know if you have
comments or suggestions.

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/agenda/agenda-97-mptcp-00.txt

Thanks,
--
Yoshi & Phil


From nobody Thu Nov  3 02:26:11 2016
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D945B7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <428609FE-DE79-45CD-B668-EF95F409B593@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <8bed05c5-9f6f-04aa-8aa8-690aa3ce30f4@uclouvain.be> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com>
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
Thread-Index: AQHSNRJiHc0sTHVljEKJBcjlfAJFpaDG99OAgAAHTXA=
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:29:50 +0000
Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA9E@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D945B7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <428609FE-DE79-45CD-B668-EF95F409B593@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <8bed05c5-9f6f-04aa-8aa8-690aa3ce30f4@uclouvain.be> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 14:16:03 +0000
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi Med,

Comments inline...

> On 3 Nov 2016, at 09:26, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Alan Ford [mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com]
>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 2 novembre 2016 15:07
>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>> Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
>>=20
>>> By the diagrams,
>>>> it needs to now that a destination is not MPTCP capable - how does =
it
>> have
>>>> this knowledge?
>>>=20
>>> [Med] The default behavior is that it does convert the MPTCP =
connection
>> into a TCP connection without requiring any knowledge about the
>> destination. This default behavior is motivated by the current =
support of
>> MPTCP at the servers side. The text can deal with optimization like =
the
>> one you suggested, but we left those out of scope for the moment.
>>>=20
>>> Should it actually be intercepting the SYN/ACK from RM and
>>>> making adjustments there?
>>>=20
>>> [Med] See above. (various optimization triggers can be considered:
>> inspect SYN/ACK, configured servers whitelist, etc.)
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> This continues in the 5.2.2.1 discussion - what is the purpose of
>>>> MP_CONVERT in the implicit mode?
>>>=20
>>> [Med] It is there to distinguish native MPTCP connections that can =
be
>> established from an MPTCP host from those that are required to be =
proxied.
>> If the option is not included, this flow will experienced:
>>>=20
>>>   _________________MULTIPLE PATH CLIENT/SERVER___________
>>>  /                                                       \
>>>               |                              |
>>>   |           |                              |           |
>>>   |src:c2@    |src:uMCP@1             dst:s1@|src:uMCP@1 |
>>>   |<=3DMPTCP=3D=3D=3D=3D|=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>|<-TCP Leg->|
>>>   |    dst:s2@|                              |    dst:s2@|
>>>   |           |                              |           |
>>>  +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>>>  |C2|      | MCP |                         | MCP |      |S2|
>>>  +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>>>            Upstream                     Downstream
>>>=20
>>>      Example of a Broken E2E MPTCP Connection (On-path)
>>>=20
>>> While we wanted to achieve this:
>>>=20
>>>   _________________MULTIPLE PATH CLIENT/SERVER___________
>>>  /                                                       \
>>>               |                              |
>>>   |           |                              |           |
>>>   |src:c2@    |src:uMCP@1             dst:s1@|src:uMCP@1 |
>>>   |<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D|=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
MPTCP=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D>|
>>>   |    dst:s2@|                              |    dst:s2@|
>>>   |           |                              |           |
>>>  +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>>>  |C2|      | MCP |                         | MCP |      |S2|
>>>  +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>>>            Upstream                      Downstream
>>>=20
>>>    Example of a Successful E2E MPTCP Connection (On-path)
>>=20
>> OK, so this is saying =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ve already been proxied, =
don=E2=80=99t proxy me again=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> [Med] Yes.

You corrected this later to =E2=80=9CNo=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 So what does =
it mean? In fact, =E2=80=9Cplease proxy me=E2=80=9D ?

>>=20
>> However, I don=E2=80=99t understand the scenario you=E2=80=99ve drawn =
above.
>=20
> [Med] The scenario is about an MPTCP-capable host located behind a =
CPE(MCP). This is typically an iPhone connected behind a CPE. We want =
that MPTCP communications issued from this host are forwarded as such to =
their destination without soliciting the downstream MCP.=20

OK I understand this scenario now, it is special for implicit mode, =
since if the CPE was acting in explicit mode, it would address the =
packets to the MCP.

What are the benefits of using implicit mode in this scenario? This is =
so you can target it to an MCP without knowing the target address. Are =
there any other reasons why this would be used rather than explicit =
mode? And what sort of deployment would this scenario exist in?

>>>=20
>>> This does not need
>>>> to be a MPTCP option to make this happen.
>>>>=20
>>>> To be clear - again - I have no issue with this work being done in
>> MPTCP
>>>> WG, it is =E2=80=9Chow to use proxies to increase deployment of =
MPTCP=E2=80=9D. But
>> this
>>>> particular document is not MPTCP-specific;
>>>=20
>>> [Med] It is MPTCP-specific for various reasons, e.g.,:
>>> * it solves an MPTCP problem (how to make use of MPTCP of one or =
both
>> peers are not MPTCP compatible).
>>=20
>> That does not affect the protocol itself.
>=20
> [Med] It does as the base protocol asumes a deployment model when both =
endpoints are MPTCP-cabaple.

Whilst the base protocol document may be written that way, there are no =
assumptions in the protocol that require it to be used that way, and =
indeed you are making use of this with your proposal.

>>=20
>>> * it is deigned to not break native MPTCP connections
>>=20
>> That does not make it MPTCP-specific.
>=20
> [Med] It does because we need a clear indicator to distinguish native =
MPTCP connections from proxied ones. We don't want to break e2d MPTCP, =
when it is possible. =20

Why? This has no effect on entities which do not implement your =
proposal.

>>> * it solves current MPTCP deployments problems with SOCKS.
>>=20
>> That does not make it MPTCP-specific.
>=20
> [Med] It is specific to MPTCP because it is about MPTCP deployment. =
That's obvious for me!

I=E2=80=99m making a web page. It has some funny cat pictures on it. =
This is delivered over HTTP. Therefore I should make funny cat pictures =
an extension of HTTP.

That=E2=80=99s essentially what you=E2=80=99re saying here!=20

My cat pictures are an application of HTTP, just like your proxying here =
is an application of MPTCP. It doesn=E2=80=99t need an extension of the =
protocol to be delivered.

>> I feel like a broken record here but this signal does not need to be =
an
>> MPTCP option because:
>> - It does not signal any information which is specific to the =
operation of
>> MPTCP
>=20
> [Med] We are not in the e2e MPTCP model, but "network-assisted MPTCP".=20=


But again, this does not require an extension to MPTCP to work.

Your protocol, as specified, is a signal in the payload. There is no =
need to make this signal like an MPTCP option, since it does not need to =
be handled by the MPTCP implementation.

The one slightly more complex case here is implicit mode. However, if =
you want devices to be able to inspect this signal without inspecting =
the payload of every MPTCP SYN, IP already has a standard in the form of =
RAO for alerting devices - RFCs 2113 and 2711.

Regards,
Alan




--Apple-Mail=_7D62EE80-8561-4276-BDE0-71BA70512C71
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Med,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Comments inline...</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 3 Nov 2016, at 09:26, <a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">-----Message d'origine-----<br class=3D"">De&nbsp;: Alan Ford =
[<a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com</a>]<br class=3D"">Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;=
: mercredi 2 novembre 2016 15:07<br class=3D"">=C3=80&nbsp;: BOUCADAIR =
Mohamed IMT/OLN<br class=3D"">Cc&nbsp;: <a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">Objet&nbsp;: Re: =
[multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">By the =
diagrams,<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">it needs to =
now that a destination is not MPTCP capable - how does it<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>have<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">this =
knowledge?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">[Med] The default =
behavior is that it does convert the MPTCP connection<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>into a TCP connection without requiring any =
knowledge about the<br class=3D"">destination. This default behavior is =
motivated by the current support of<br class=3D"">MPTCP at the servers =
side. The text can deal with optimization like the<br class=3D"">one you =
suggested, but we left those out of scope for the moment.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Should it =
actually be intercepting the SYN/ACK from RM and<br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D"">making adjustments there?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">[Med] See above. (various =
optimization triggers can be considered:<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>inspect SYN/ACK, configured servers whitelist, =
etc.)<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">This =
continues in the 5.2.2.1 discussion - what is the purpose of<br =
class=3D"">MP_CONVERT in the implicit mode?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br=
 class=3D"">[Med] It is there to distinguish native MPTCP connections =
that can be<br class=3D""></blockquote>established from an MPTCP host =
from those that are required to be proxied.<br class=3D"">If the option =
is not included, this flow will experienced:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;_________________MULTIPLE PATH =
CLIENT/SERVER___________<br class=3D"">&nbsp;/ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;|src:c2@ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|src:uMCP@1 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ds=
t:s1@|src:uMCP@1 |<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;|&lt;=3DMPTCP=3D=3D=3D=3D|=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt;|&lt;-TCP =
Leg-&gt;|<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;dst:s2@| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;dst:s2@|<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;+--+ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+-----+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+---=
--+ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--+<br class=3D"">&nbsp;|C2| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| MCP | =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
MCP | &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|S2|<br class=3D"">&nbsp;+--+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+-----+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+---=
--+ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--+<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;Upstream =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Downstream<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Example of a Broken E2E MPTCP =
Connection (On-path)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">While we wanted to =
achieve this:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;_________________MULTIPLE PATH =
CLIENT/SERVER___________<br class=3D"">&nbsp;/ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;|src:c2@ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|src:uMCP@1 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ds=
t:s1@|src:uMCP@1 |<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;|&lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D|=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DMPTCP=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt;|<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;dst:s2@| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;dst:s2@|<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;+--+ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+-----+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+---=
--+ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--+<br class=3D"">&nbsp;|C2| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| MCP | =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
MCP | &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|S2|<br class=3D"">&nbsp;+--+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+-----+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+---=
--+ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--+<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;Upstream =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Downstream<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Example of a Successful E2E =
MPTCP Connection (On-path)<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">OK, =
so this is saying =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ve already been proxied, don=E2=80=99=
t proxy me again=E2=80=9D.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">[Med] =
Yes.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>You corrected =
this later to =E2=80=9CNo=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 So what does it mean? In =
fact, =E2=80=9Cplease proxy me=E2=80=9D ?</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">However, I don=E2=80=99t understand the =
scenario you=E2=80=99ve drawn above.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">[Med] The scenario =
is about an MPTCP-capable host located behind a CPE(MCP). This is =
typically an iPhone connected behind a CPE. We want that MPTCP =
communications issued from this host are forwarded as such to their =
destination without soliciting the downstream MCP.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>OK I understand this scenario now, it is special =
for implicit mode, since if the CPE was acting in explicit mode, it =
would address the packets to the MCP.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>What are the benefits of using implicit mode in =
this scenario? This is so you can target it to an MCP without knowing =
the target address. Are there any other reasons why this would be used =
rather than explicit mode? And what sort of deployment would this =
scenario exist in?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">This =
does not need<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">to be a =
MPTCP option to make this happen.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">To be =
clear - again - I have no issue with this work being done in<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>MPTCP<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">WG, it is =
=E2=80=9Chow to use proxies to increase deployment of MPTCP=E2=80=9D. =
But<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>this<br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">particular =
document is not MPTCP-specific;<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">[Med] It is MPTCP-specific for various reasons, e.g.,:<br =
class=3D"">* it solves an MPTCP problem (how to make use of MPTCP of one =
or both<br class=3D""></blockquote>peers are not MPTCP compatible).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">That does not affect the protocol itself.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">[Med] It does as the base protocol asumes a =
deployment model when both endpoints are MPTCP-cabaple.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Whilst the base protocol document may be written =
that way, there are no assumptions in the protocol that require it to be =
used that way, and indeed you are making use of this with your =
proposal.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">* it is =
deigned to not break native MPTCP connections<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">That does not make it =
MPTCP-specific.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">[Med] It does because we need a clear =
indicator to distinguish native MPTCP connections from proxied ones. We =
don't want to break e2d MPTCP, when it is possible. &nbsp;</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Why? This has no effect on entities which do not =
implement your proposal.<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">* it solves current =
MPTCP deployments problems with SOCKS.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">That does not make it MPTCP-specific.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">[Med] It is specific to MPTCP because it is =
about MPTCP deployment. That's obvious for me!</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>I=E2=80=99m making a web page. It has some funny cat =
pictures on it. This is delivered over HTTP. Therefore I should make =
funny cat pictures an extension of HTTP.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>That=E2=80=99s essentially what you=E2=80=99re =
saying here!&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>My cat pictures =
are an application of HTTP, just like your proxying here is an =
application of MPTCP. It doesn=E2=80=99t need an extension of the =
protocol to be delivered.<div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">I feel like a broken record =
here but this signal does not need to be an<br class=3D"">MPTCP option =
because:<br class=3D"">- It does not signal any information which is =
specific to the operation of<br class=3D"">MPTCP<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">[Med] We are not in the e2e MPTCP model, but =
"network-assisted MPTCP".<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></div></blockquote></d=
iv><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But again, this does not require =
an extension to MPTCP to work.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Your protocol, as specified, is a =
signal in the payload. There is no need to make this signal like an =
MPTCP option, since it does not need to be handled by the MPTCP =
implementation.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The one slightly more complex case here is implicit mode. =
However, if you want devices to be able to inspect this signal without =
inspecting the payload of every MPTCP SYN, IP already has a standard in =
the form of RAO for alerting devices - RFCs 2113 and 2711.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_7D62EE80-8561-4276-BDE0-71BA70512C71--


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From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP deployments
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Hello,


The next issue of the IETF Journal contains one article about Multipath 
TCP deployments that could be of interest for the members of the MPTCP 
Working group. In addition to the use cases that have already been 
discussed in the list, the article contains :

- a more detailed explanation of the largest MPTCP deployment on 
smartphones with several interesting lessons learned from this 
deployment. This is the first description of this deployment.
- an explanation of the utilisation of MPTCP to combine DSL and LTE in 
hybrid access networks. Many network operators have shown their interest 
in this use case and the article documents solutions that are already 
used in some networks

The article is already available online at :

https://www.ietfjournal.org/multipath-tcp-deployments/



Olivier


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To: Mohamed Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi all,

first, I agree with Alan that such a signal does not need to/should not =
be part of the MPTCP protocol. MPTCP (as TCP is) is an end2end protocol. =
If you have one (or two) proxies in the middle, you split up the =
connection into multiple new =E2=80=9Aend2end=E2=80=98 connections. If =
you need additional signaling information on one of the new connections, =
that a question for a high-layer protocol that uses MPTCP (which is what =
you do, when you propose it to be part of the payload).

Second, I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of the a two side proxy scenario where =
one side simply assumes that the destination is not MPTCP-capable. This =
does not support MPTCP deployment but hinders native MPTCP deployment =
(basically ensuring that these proxies stay forever in the network and =
add additional complexity even if all endpoints are MPTCP-enabled one =
day). I guess a proxy should always first forward the MCTCP handshake =
and only if the reply does not support MPTCP, then termite the =
connection, reply the initiator accordingly and setup a new TCP to the =
destination. This might cause additional delay but it provides a big =
benefit if the destination is MPTCP-capable and supports native =
deployment.

Mirja


> Am 03.11.2016 um 15:16 schrieb Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>:
>=20
> Hi Med,
>=20
> Comments inline...
>=20
>> On 3 Nov 2016, at 09:26, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>=20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Alan Ford [mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com]
>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 2 novembre 2016 15:07
>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>>> Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org
>>> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
>>>=20
>>>> By the diagrams,
>>>>> it needs to now that a destination is not MPTCP capable - how does =
it
>>> have
>>>>> this knowledge?
>>>>=20
>>>> [Med] The default behavior is that it does convert the MPTCP =
connection
>>> into a TCP connection without requiring any knowledge about the
>>> destination. This default behavior is motivated by the current =
support of
>>> MPTCP at the servers side. The text can deal with optimization like =
the
>>> one you suggested, but we left those out of scope for the moment.
>>>>=20
>>>> Should it actually be intercepting the SYN/ACK from RM and
>>>>> making adjustments there?
>>>>=20
>>>> [Med] See above. (various optimization triggers can be considered:
>>> inspect SYN/ACK, configured servers whitelist, etc.)
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This continues in the 5.2.2.1 discussion - what is the purpose of
>>>>> MP_CONVERT in the implicit mode?
>>>>=20
>>>> [Med] It is there to distinguish native MPTCP connections that can =
be
>>> established from an MPTCP host from those that are required to be =
proxied.
>>> If the option is not included, this flow will experienced:
>>>>=20
>>>>   _________________MULTIPLE PATH CLIENT/SERVER___________
>>>>  /                                                       \
>>>>               |                              |
>>>>   |           |                              |           |
>>>>   |src:c2@    |src:uMCP@1             dst:s1@|src:uMCP@1 |
>>>>   |<=3DMPTCP=3D=3D=3D=3D|=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>|<-TCP Leg->|
>>>>   |    dst:s2@|                              |    dst:s2@|
>>>>   |           |                              |           |
>>>>  +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>>>>  |C2|      | MCP |                         | MCP |      |S2|
>>>>  +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>>>>            Upstream                     Downstream
>>>>=20
>>>>      Example of a Broken E2E MPTCP Connection (On-path)
>>>>=20
>>>> While we wanted to achieve this:
>>>>=20
>>>>   _________________MULTIPLE PATH CLIENT/SERVER___________
>>>>  /                                                       \
>>>>               |                              |
>>>>   |           |                              |           |
>>>>   |src:c2@    |src:uMCP@1             dst:s1@|src:uMCP@1 |
>>>>   |<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D|=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
MPTCP=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D>|
>>>>   |    dst:s2@|                              |    dst:s2@|
>>>>   |           |                              |           |
>>>>  +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>>>>  |C2|      | MCP |                         | MCP |      |S2|
>>>>  +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>>>>            Upstream                      Downstream
>>>>=20
>>>>    Example of a Successful E2E MPTCP Connection (On-path)
>>>=20
>>> OK, so this is saying =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ve already been proxied, =
don=E2=80=99t proxy me again=E2=80=9D.
>>=20
>> [Med] Yes.
>=20
> You corrected this later to =E2=80=9CNo=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 So what =
does it mean? In fact, =E2=80=9Cplease proxy me=E2=80=9D ?
>=20
>>>=20
>>> However, I don=E2=80=99t understand the scenario you=E2=80=99ve =
drawn above.
>>=20
>> [Med] The scenario is about an MPTCP-capable host located behind a =
CPE(MCP). This is typically an iPhone connected behind a CPE. We want =
that MPTCP communications issued from this host are forwarded as such to =
their destination without soliciting the downstream MCP.=20
>=20
> OK I understand this scenario now, it is special for implicit mode, =
since if the CPE was acting in explicit mode, it would address the =
packets to the MCP.
>=20
> What are the benefits of using implicit mode in this scenario? This is =
so you can target it to an MCP without knowing the target address. Are =
there any other reasons why this would be used rather than explicit =
mode? And what sort of deployment would this scenario exist in?
>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> This does not need
>>>>> to be a MPTCP option to make this happen.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> To be clear - again - I have no issue with this work being done in
>>> MPTCP
>>>>> WG, it is =E2=80=9Chow to use proxies to increase deployment of =
MPTCP=E2=80=9D. But
>>> this
>>>>> particular document is not MPTCP-specific;
>>>>=20
>>>> [Med] It is MPTCP-specific for various reasons, e.g.,:
>>>> * it solves an MPTCP problem (how to make use of MPTCP of one or =
both
>>> peers are not MPTCP compatible).
>>>=20
>>> That does not affect the protocol itself.
>>=20
>> [Med] It does as the base protocol asumes a deployment model when =
both endpoints are MPTCP-cabaple.
>=20
> Whilst the base protocol document may be written that way, there are =
no assumptions in the protocol that require it to be used that way, and =
indeed you are making use of this with your proposal.
>=20
>>>=20
>>>> * it is deigned to not break native MPTCP connections
>>>=20
>>> That does not make it MPTCP-specific.
>>=20
>> [Med] It does because we need a clear indicator to distinguish native =
MPTCP connections from proxied ones. We don't want to break e2d MPTCP, =
when it is possible. =20
>=20
> Why? This has no effect on entities which do not implement your =
proposal.
>=20
>>>> * it solves current MPTCP deployments problems with SOCKS.
>>>=20
>>> That does not make it MPTCP-specific.
>>=20
>> [Med] It is specific to MPTCP because it is about MPTCP deployment. =
That's obvious for me!
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m making a web page. It has some funny cat pictures on it. =
This is delivered over HTTP. Therefore I should make funny cat pictures =
an extension of HTTP.
>=20
> That=E2=80=99s essentially what you=E2=80=99re saying here!=20
>=20
> My cat pictures are an application of HTTP, just like your proxying =
here is an application of MPTCP. It doesn=E2=80=99t need an extension of =
the protocol to be delivered.
>=20
>>> I feel like a broken record here but this signal does not need to be =
an
>>> MPTCP option because:
>>> - It does not signal any information which is specific to the =
operation of
>>> MPTCP
>>=20
>> [Med] We are not in the e2e MPTCP model, but "network-assisted =
MPTCP".=20
>=20
> But again, this does not require an extension to MPTCP to work.
>=20
> Your protocol, as specified, is a signal in the payload. There is no =
need to make this signal like an MPTCP option, since it does not need to =
be handled by the MPTCP implementation.
>=20
> The one slightly more complex case here is implicit mode. However, if =
you want devices to be able to inspect this signal without inspecting =
the payload of every MPTCP SYN, IP already has a standard in the form of =
RAO for alerting devices - RFCs 2113 and 2711.
>=20
> Regards,
> Alan
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


From nobody Fri Nov  4 02:43:34 2016
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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
Thread-Index: AQHSNn6XQgvumHnbm0arzSIWTM7lXaDIkvLw
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 10:12:43 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 11:02:02 +0000
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D945B7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <428609FE-DE79-45CD-B668-EF95F409B593@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <8bed05c5-9f6f-04aa-8aa8-690aa3ce30f4@uclouvain.be> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAC5DE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
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Hi Med,

Inline=E2=80=A6

> On 4 Nov 2016, at 10:12, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> =
<mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Mirja K=C3=BChlewind [mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch]
>> Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 4 novembre 2016 10:34
>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Alan Ford
>> Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
>>=20
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> first, I agree with Alan that such a signal does not need to/should =
not be
>> part of the MPTCP protocol.
>=20
> [Med] Defining another channel to carry the signal "I want to be =
MPTCP-proxied" outside the MPTCP normal channel will import the same set =
of hindrances we had with MPTCP design for middlebloxes traversal. The =
use of MPTCP to convey the "I want to be MPTCP-proxied" leverages on =
base MPTCP to detect "unfriendly MPTCP" in-path nodes. That's a =
pragmatic engineering design.=20

The MP_CONVERT signal has multiple purposes. When signalled with a =
target IP address in explicit mode, it is a pure application-layer =
signal, and is separate from the MPTCP connection entering the MCP.

In implicit mode this is indeed at a slightly different layer, and yes, =
you are asking the network to do something. But it=E2=80=99s still not a =
necessary part of the MPTCP protocol to make this happen. This is =
similar to a transparent HTTP proxy, or to a NAT - neither requires any =
changes to HTTP or TCP/IP to work.

You could detect MPTCP SYNs and see if your signal is present. If you =
don=E2=80=99t want to be inspecting every MPTCP SYN in implicit mode, =
use an existing standard - I suggest RAO. Given this is a controlled =
environment, you shouldn=E2=80=99t have any deployment concerns here.

If RAO is not appropriate for some reason, I might be persuaded that a =
flag in the MP_CAPABLE that says =E2=80=9Cproxies should inspect this=E2=80=
=9D could be added to the base protocol. However, the rest of the =
protocol - i.e. the MP_CONVERT signal - is application-layer and outside =
MPTCP.

Ultimately MPTCP Proxying is an application of MPTCP and should be =
defined as such.

Regards,
Alan



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Med,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Inline=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
4 Nov 2016, at 10:12, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">-----Message d'origine-----<br class=3D"">De&nbsp;: Mirja =
K=C3=BChlewind [<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch" =
class=3D"">mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>]<br =
class=3D"">Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;: vendredi 4 novembre 2016 10:34<br =
class=3D"">=C3=80&nbsp;: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Alan Ford<br =
class=3D"">Cc&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">Objet&nbsp;: Re: =
[multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Hi all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">first, I agree with Alan =
that such a signal does not need to/should not be<br class=3D"">part of =
the MPTCP protocol.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">[Med] =
Defining another channel to carry the signal "I want to be =
MPTCP-proxied" outside the MPTCP normal channel will import the same set =
of hindrances we had with MPTCP design for middlebloxes traversal. The =
use of MPTCP to convey the "I want to be MPTCP-proxied" leverages on =
base MPTCP to detect "unfriendly MPTCP" in-path nodes. That's a =
pragmatic engineering design. <br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div>The MP_CONVERT signal has multiple purposes. =
When signalled with a target IP address in explicit mode, it is a pure =
application-layer signal, and is separate from the MPTCP connection =
entering the MCP.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In implicit mode =
this is indeed at a slightly different layer, and yes, you are asking =
the network to do something. But it=E2=80=99s still not a necessary part =
of the MPTCP protocol to make this happen. This is similar to a =
transparent HTTP proxy, or to a NAT - neither requires any changes to =
HTTP or TCP/IP to work.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>You could =
detect MPTCP SYNs and see if your signal is present. If you don=E2=80=99t =
want to be inspecting every MPTCP SYN in implicit mode, use an existing =
standard - I suggest RAO. Given this is a controlled environment, you =
shouldn=E2=80=99t have any deployment concerns here.<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If RAO is not appropriate for =
some reason, I might be persuaded that a flag in the MP_CAPABLE that =
says =E2=80=9Cproxies should inspect this=E2=80=9D could be added to the =
base protocol. However, the rest of the protocol - i.e. the MP_CONVERT =
signal - is application-layer and outside MPTCP.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Ultimately MPTCP Proxying is an <i =
class=3D"">application</i>&nbsp;of MPTCP and should be defined as =
such.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Alan</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_51AAA225-4EB7-4460-9BD2-D179E56D1D82--


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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D945B7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <428609FE-DE79-45CD-B668-EF95F409B593@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <8bed05c5-9f6f-04aa-8aa8-690aa3ce30f4@uclouvain.be> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Alan,
>
> Thank you for updating these drafts, I have been awaiting these with great interest!
...
> To be clear - again - I have no issue with this work being done in MPTCP WG, it is “how to use proxies to increase deployment of MPTCP”. But this particular document is not MPTCP-specific; whether it is published here or elsewhere I don’t care, but it really shouldn’t’ be written as if it’s extending the MPTCP spec when there is no reason for it to be.
>
> Finally, you earlier mentioned the possible effect on the base spec regarding a flag, but I see no mention of it in these docs.

Sorry for the late reply. The main problem with the current MPTCP draft 
is the length of the TCP options in the SYN segment. With network 
assisted MPTCP, we could need to encode one or two IP addresses inside 
TCP options in the SYN segment. With IPv4, this might be possible 
depending on the other options that are used. With IPv6, this becomes 
quickly a problem.

As we redefine MP_CAPABLE when moving to RFC6824bis, I think that we 
should try to design a generic solution to allow a SYN segment to carry 
long TCP options. This should be part of the Multipath TCP standard 
specification to ensure that it is future-proof and can be extended later.

Different designs are possible and some have been discussed in the TCPM 
working group. Instead of defining a specific option to allow longer 
options, I would suggest to include this feature directly inside 
Multipath TCP. This would be cleaner and Multipath TCP is anyway the TCP 
variant that mostly requires this feature. Here are a few possible 
designs to start the discussion :

- always force the TCP SYN segment containing MP_CAPABLE to contain 
options in the SYN payload. If all options can fit in the extended TCP 
header, then the payload only contains the TCP EOL option. If there are 
TCP options in the payload, then the last option is always the EOL option.

- add a flag to MP_CAPABLE option to indicate whether the SYN payload 
contains TCP options (terminated by EOL) or not. Same as above for 
encoding the options in the SYN payload

- add a length field to MP_CAPABLE option to indicate the number of 
bytes (or words) of the SYN payload that contain TCP options. In this 
case, we do not need to terminate the options in the payload with EOL.

If RFC6824bis could include a reasonable solution that allows to place 
TCP options in the SYN payload, we would make a huge step to ensure that 
MPTCP is future-proof and that it will be possible to extend it in the 
future. In the short term, the solution could be limited to networks 
where it is known that there are no middleboxes that interfere with TCP 
options, but this would be a strong message to middlebox vendors that 
they will need to support TCP options in the SYN payload in the future.

I won't unfortunately be able to attend the next IETF meeting in Seoul 
but I'd be happy to discuss this by email


Olivier


From nobody Fri Nov  4 04:23:35 2016
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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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To: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Thanks for the comments, Olivier. If the working group thinks it would =
be a good idea, I would not be opposed to embedding some extended =
options support in MPTCP - as you say it seems a good chance to do so. I =
haven=E2=80=99t thought deeply yet about the various options below, all =
have their merits, but the flag sounds possibly easiest. Whatever =
extension was used, it could be particularly useful in the future for =
improved cryptographic handshakes.

This does not change my view, however, that MPTCP options should not be =
used for application-layer purposes, and that=E2=80=99s my main issue =
with MP_CONVERT as written - it=E2=80=99s a non-MPTCP-specific =
application-layer signal masquerading as a MPTCP option.

Regards,
Alan

> On 4 Nov 2016, at 11:07, Olivier Bonaventure =
<Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>=20
> Alan,
>>=20
>> Thank you for updating these drafts, I have been awaiting these with =
great interest!
> ...
>> To be clear - again - I have no issue with this work being done in =
MPTCP WG, it is =E2=80=9Chow to use proxies to increase deployment of =
MPTCP=E2=80=9D. But this particular document is not MPTCP-specific; =
whether it is published here or elsewhere I don=E2=80=99t care, but it =
really shouldn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=99 be written as if it=E2=80=99s =
extending the MPTCP spec when there is no reason for it to be.
>>=20
>> Finally, you earlier mentioned the possible effect on the base spec =
regarding a flag, but I see no mention of it in these docs.
>=20
> Sorry for the late reply. The main problem with the current MPTCP =
draft is the length of the TCP options in the SYN segment. With network =
assisted MPTCP, we could need to encode one or two IP addresses inside =
TCP options in the SYN segment. With IPv4, this might be possible =
depending on the other options that are used. With IPv6, this becomes =
quickly a problem.
>=20
> As we redefine MP_CAPABLE when moving to RFC6824bis, I think that we =
should try to design a generic solution to allow a SYN segment to carry =
long TCP options. This should be part of the Multipath TCP standard =
specification to ensure that it is future-proof and can be extended =
later.
>=20
> Different designs are possible and some have been discussed in the =
TCPM working group. Instead of defining a specific option to allow =
longer options, I would suggest to include this feature directly inside =
Multipath TCP. This would be cleaner and Multipath TCP is anyway the TCP =
variant that mostly requires this feature. Here are a few possible =
designs to start the discussion :
>=20
> - always force the TCP SYN segment containing MP_CAPABLE to contain =
options in the SYN payload. If all options can fit in the extended TCP =
header, then the payload only contains the TCP EOL option. If there are =
TCP options in the payload, then the last option is always the EOL =
option.
>=20
> - add a flag to MP_CAPABLE option to indicate whether the SYN payload =
contains TCP options (terminated by EOL) or not. Same as above for =
encoding the options in the SYN payload
>=20
> - add a length field to MP_CAPABLE option to indicate the number of =
bytes (or words) of the SYN payload that contain TCP options. In this =
case, we do not need to terminate the options in the payload with EOL.
>=20
> If RFC6824bis could include a reasonable solution that allows to place =
TCP options in the SYN payload, we would make a huge step to ensure that =
MPTCP is future-proof and that it will be possible to extend it in the =
future. In the short term, the solution could be limited to networks =
where it is known that there are no middleboxes that interfere with TCP =
options, but this would be a strong message to middlebox vendors that =
they will need to support TCP options in the SYN payload in the future.
>=20
> I won't unfortunately be able to attend the next IETF meeting in Seoul =
but I'd be happy to discuss this by email
>=20
>=20
> Olivier
>=20


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Subject: [multipathtcp] MPTCP proxies, and the BANANA BoF
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Greetings, all,

First, for those of you who aren't aware, there's a non-WG forming BoF =
in Seoul on Thursday afternoon, on using multipath bonding for broadband =
access networks, BANANA. One of the solutions we'll be looking at is =
MPTCP-proxy based; those interested, please come by!

On this point, Mirja said:

> first, I agree with Alan that such a signal does not need to/should =
not be part of the MPTCP protocol. MPTCP (as TCP is) is an end2end =
protocol. If you have one (or two) proxies in the middle, you split up =
the connection into multiple new =E2=80=9Aend2end=E2=80=98 connections. =
If you need additional signaling information on one of the new =
connections, that a question for a high-layer protocol that uses MPTCP =
(which is what you do, when you propose it to be part of the payload).

+1. One of the attractive things about MPTCP-based solutions for this =
particular use case, IMO, is that there's a clear path from a two-proxy =
situation (which is what BANANA foresees) to a one-proxy situation =
(MPTCP aware smartphones can use their LTE connection natively, and =
connect to the far-side bonding proxy directly, if they can be so =
configured), and eventually to a zero-proxy situation (when content =
providers also provide multipath services). That pretty much requires =
that the MPTCP part remain end-to-end, while the proxy selection (and =
any other interproxy communication) happen out of that band.

Cheers,

Brian

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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] MPTCP proxies, and the BANANA BoF
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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:05:45 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP proxies, and the BANANA BoF
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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Alan,

> Thanks for the comments, Olivier. If the working group thinks it would be a good idea, I would not be opposed to embedding some extended options support in MPTCP - as you say it seems a good chance to do so. I haven’t thought deeply yet about the various options below, all have their merits, but the flag sounds possibly easiest. Whatever extension was used, it could be particularly useful in the future for improved cryptographic handshakes.
>
> This does not change my view, however, that MPTCP options should not be used for application-layer purposes, and that’s my main issue with MP_CONVERT as written - it’s a non-MPTCP-specific application-layer signal masquerading as a MPTCP option.

It's clear that a proxy can be developed entirely as an application. 
SOCKSv5 is one example. The main drawback with SOCKS is that this adds 
several round-trip-times to each connection establishment to setup the 
proxy. With an option in the SYN, a proxy to operate with zero-rtt 
overhead. Reducing latency is an objective that is shared by other 
working groups, see e.g. TLS 1.3, QUIC and others...


Olivier


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To: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Hi Olivier, hi all,

I really don=E2=80=99t buy our argument why you should develop such a =
mechanism for MPTCP only compared to a generic solution that could be =
used by all (existing and future) TCP extensions. MPTCP is not the only =
extension that could make use of this (tcpinc is another example) and =
I=E2=80=99m sure there will more mechanisms in future that would benefit =
from additional option space in the SYN.=20

Mirja


> Am 04.11.2016 um 12:23 schrieb Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>:
>=20
> Thanks for the comments, Olivier. If the working group thinks it would =
be a good idea, I would not be opposed to embedding some extended =
options support in MPTCP - as you say it seems a good chance to do so. I =
haven=E2=80=99t thought deeply yet about the various options below, all =
have their merits, but the flag sounds possibly easiest. Whatever =
extension was used, it could be particularly useful in the future for =
improved cryptographic handshakes.
>=20
> This does not change my view, however, that MPTCP options should not =
be used for application-layer purposes, and that=E2=80=99s my main issue =
with MP_CONVERT as written - it=E2=80=99s a non-MPTCP-specific =
application-layer signal masquerading as a MPTCP option.
>=20
> Regards,
> Alan
>=20
>> On 4 Nov 2016, at 11:07, Olivier Bonaventure =
<Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>>=20
>> Alan,
>>>=20
>>> Thank you for updating these drafts, I have been awaiting these with =
great interest!
>> ...
>>> To be clear - again - I have no issue with this work being done in =
MPTCP WG, it is =E2=80=9Chow to use proxies to increase deployment of =
MPTCP=E2=80=9D. But this particular document is not MPTCP-specific; =
whether it is published here or elsewhere I don=E2=80=99t care, but it =
really shouldn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=99 be written as if it=E2=80=99s =
extending the MPTCP spec when there is no reason for it to be.
>>>=20
>>> Finally, you earlier mentioned the possible effect on the base spec =
regarding a flag, but I see no mention of it in these docs.
>>=20
>> Sorry for the late reply. The main problem with the current MPTCP =
draft is the length of the TCP options in the SYN segment. With network =
assisted MPTCP, we could need to encode one or two IP addresses inside =
TCP options in the SYN segment. With IPv4, this might be possible =
depending on the other options that are used. With IPv6, this becomes =
quickly a problem.
>>=20
>> As we redefine MP_CAPABLE when moving to RFC6824bis, I think that we =
should try to design a generic solution to allow a SYN segment to carry =
long TCP options. This should be part of the Multipath TCP standard =
specification to ensure that it is future-proof and can be extended =
later.
>>=20
>> Different designs are possible and some have been discussed in the =
TCPM working group. Instead of defining a specific option to allow =
longer options, I would suggest to include this feature directly inside =
Multipath TCP. This would be cleaner and Multipath TCP is anyway the TCP =
variant that mostly requires this feature. Here are a few possible =
designs to start the discussion :
>>=20
>> - always force the TCP SYN segment containing MP_CAPABLE to contain =
options in the SYN payload. If all options can fit in the extended TCP =
header, then the payload only contains the TCP EOL option. If there are =
TCP options in the payload, then the last option is always the EOL =
option.
>>=20
>> - add a flag to MP_CAPABLE option to indicate whether the SYN payload =
contains TCP options (terminated by EOL) or not. Same as above for =
encoding the options in the SYN payload
>>=20
>> - add a length field to MP_CAPABLE option to indicate the number of =
bytes (or words) of the SYN payload that contain TCP options. In this =
case, we do not need to terminate the options in the payload with EOL.
>>=20
>> If RFC6824bis could include a reasonable solution that allows to =
place TCP options in the SYN payload, we would make a huge step to =
ensure that MPTCP is future-proof and that it will be possible to extend =
it in the future. In the short term, the solution could be limited to =
networks where it is known that there are no middleboxes that interfere =
with TCP options, but this would be a strong message to middlebox =
vendors that they will need to support TCP options in the SYN payload in =
the future.
>>=20
>> I won't unfortunately be able to attend the next IETF meeting in =
Seoul but I'd be happy to discuss this by email
>>=20
>>=20
>> Olivier
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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+1

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 7:24 AM, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.=
ethz.ch> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Olivier, hi all,
>=20
> I really don=E2=80=99t buy our argument why you should develop such a mech=
anism for MPTCP only compared to a generic solution that could be used by al=
l (existing and future) TCP extensions. MPTCP is not the only extension that=
 could make use of this (tcpinc is another example) and I=E2=80=99m sure the=
re will more mechanisms in future that would benefit from additional option s=
pace in the SYN.=20
>=20
> Mirja
>=20
>=20
>> Am 04.11.2016 um 12:23 schrieb Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>:
>>=20
>> Thanks for the comments, Olivier. If the working group thinks it would be=
 a good idea, I would not be opposed to embedding some extended options supp=
ort in MPTCP - as you say it seems a good chance to do so. I haven=E2=80=99t=
 thought deeply yet about the various options below, all have their merits, b=
ut the flag sounds possibly easiest. Whatever extension was used, it could b=
e particularly useful in the future for improved cryptographic handshakes.
>>=20
>> This does not change my view, however, that MPTCP options should not be u=
sed for application-layer purposes, and that=E2=80=99s my main issue with MP=
_CONVERT as written - it=E2=80=99s a non-MPTCP-specific application-layer si=
gnal masquerading as a MPTCP option.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>>=20
>>> On 4 Nov 2016, at 11:07, Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouv=
ain.be> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Alan,
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you for updating these drafts, I have been awaiting these with gr=
eat interest!
>>> ...
>>>> To be clear - again - I have no issue with this work being done in MPTC=
P WG, it is =E2=80=9Chow to use proxies to increase deployment of MPTCP=E2=80=
=9D. But this particular document is not MPTCP-specific; whether it is publi=
shed here or elsewhere I don=E2=80=99t care, but it really shouldn=E2=80=99t=
=E2=80=99 be written as if it=E2=80=99s extending the MPTCP spec when there i=
s no reason for it to be.
>>>>=20
>>>> Finally, you earlier mentioned the possible effect on the base spec reg=
arding a flag, but I see no mention of it in these docs.
>>>=20
>>> Sorry for the late reply. The main problem with the current MPTCP draft i=
s the length of the TCP options in the SYN segment. With network assisted MP=
TCP, we could need to encode one or two IP addresses inside TCP options in t=
he SYN segment. With IPv4, this might be possible depending on the other opt=
ions that are used. With IPv6, this becomes quickly a problem.
>>>=20
>>> As we redefine MP_CAPABLE when moving to RFC6824bis, I think that we sho=
uld try to design a generic solution to allow a SYN segment to carry long TC=
P options. This should be part of the Multipath TCP standard specification t=
o ensure that it is future-proof and can be extended later.
>>>=20
>>> Different designs are possible and some have been discussed in the TCPM w=
orking group. Instead of defining a specific option to allow longer options,=
 I would suggest to include this feature directly inside Multipath TCP. This=
 would be cleaner and Multipath TCP is anyway the TCP variant that mostly re=
quires this feature. Here are a few possible designs to start the discussion=
 :
>>>=20
>>> - always force the TCP SYN segment containing MP_CAPABLE to contain opti=
ons in the SYN payload. If all options can fit in the extended TCP header, t=
hen the payload only contains the TCP EOL option. If there are TCP options i=
n the payload, then the last option is always the EOL option.
>>>=20
>>> - add a flag to MP_CAPABLE option to indicate whether the SYN payload co=
ntains TCP options (terminated by EOL) or not. Same as above for encoding th=
e options in the SYN payload
>>>=20
>>> - add a length field to MP_CAPABLE option to indicate the number of byte=
s (or words) of the SYN payload that contain TCP options. In this case, we d=
o not need to terminate the options in the payload with EOL.
>>>=20
>>> If RFC6824bis could include a reasonable solution that allows to place T=
CP options in the SYN payload, we would make a huge step to ensure that MPTC=
P is future-proof and that it will be possible to extend it in the future. I=
n the short term, the solution could be limited to networks where it is know=
n that there are no middleboxes that interfere with TCP options, but this wo=
uld be a strong message to middlebox vendors that they will need to support T=
CP options in the SYN payload in the future.
>>>=20
>>> I won't unfortunately be able to attend the next IETF meeting in Seoul b=
ut I'd be happy to discuss this by email
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Olivier
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> multipathtcp mailing list
>> multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi, all,

...
> >>> - add a flag to MP_CAPABLE option to indicate whether the SYN payload contains TCP options (terminated by EOL) or not. Same as above for encoding the options in the SYN payload

FWIW, this doesn't work and is the reason why TCPM has different
proposals for the SYN (and SYN-ACK) vs. other segments.

See the discussion in draft-ietf-tcpm-tcp-edo.
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-tcp-edo/>

SYN proposals include draft-touch-tcpm-tcp-syn-ext-opt
<https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-touch-tcpm-tcp-syn-ext-opt-05.txt>,
which includes a discussion of some of the alternatives that have been
proposed as well.

Joe

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    <p>Hi, all,<br>
    </p>
    ...<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:AE721A71-0B9C-4A05-94AE-C104318DCF7F@isi.edu"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;&gt;&gt; </span>- add a flag to MP_CAPABLE option to indicate whether the SYN payload contains TCP options (terminated by EOL) or not. Same as above for encoding the options in the SYN payload</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    FWIW, this doesn't work and is the reason why TCPM has different
    proposals for the SYN (and SYN-ACK) vs. other segments.<br>
    <br>
    See the discussion in <a
      href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-tcp-edo/">draft-ietf-tcpm-tcp-edo.</a><br>
    <br>
    SYN proposals include <a
      href="https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-touch-tcpm-tcp-syn-ext-opt-05.txt">draft-touch-tcpm-tcp-syn-ext-opt</a>,
    which includes a discussion of some of the alternatives that have
    been proposed as well.<br>
    <br>
    Joe<br>
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From nobody Fri Nov  4 07:57:20 2016
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From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 07:56:41 -0700
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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On 11/4/2016 7:54 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> Re-,
>
> There are already some generic proposals (e.g., SYN EOS), but IMHO those require an out of band SYN (second SYN) to extend the TCP option space, while the payload space of the original SYN can be used!

Please read the generic proposals. The explain why the SYN payload
cannot be used.

Joe


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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To: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi Olivier,

> On 4 Nov 2016, at 14:17, Olivier Bonaventure =
<Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>=20
>> Thanks for the comments, Olivier. If the working group thinks it =
would be a good idea, I would not be opposed to embedding some extended =
options support in MPTCP - as you say it seems a good chance to do so. I =
haven=E2=80=99t thought deeply yet about the various options below, all =
have their merits, but the flag sounds possibly easiest. Whatever =
extension was used, it could be particularly useful in the future for =
improved cryptographic handshakes.
>>=20
>> This does not change my view, however, that MPTCP options should not =
be used for application-layer purposes, and that=E2=80=99s my main issue =
with MP_CONVERT as written - it=E2=80=99s a non-MPTCP-specific =
application-layer signal masquerading as a MPTCP option.
>=20
> It's clear that a proxy can be developed entirely as an application. =
SOCKSv5 is one example. The main drawback with SOCKS is that this adds =
several round-trip-times to each connection establishment to setup the =
proxy. With an option in the SYN, a proxy to operate with zero-rtt =
overhead. Reducing latency is an objective that is shared by other =
working groups, see e.g. TLS 1.3, QUIC and others...

One of us is clearly missing some key piece of information, since I =
still don=E2=80=99t know how we can be arguing something that seems so =
fundamentally clear to me.

This is a clear-cut application on top of MPTCP. In explicit mode, the =
application protocol is:

- a few bytes of signal that defines the real target address
- followed by the proxied payload

I=E2=80=99m not saying =E2=80=9Cuse SOCKS=E2=80=9D - you have a proposal =
for a 0-RTT proxy signalling protocol here. That=E2=80=99s fine. But =
it=E2=80=99s not MPTCP-specific. Why are you trying to make it a MPTCP =
option?

As I said in the reply to Med, the implicit mode is slightly more =
difficult since you are expecting interception of MPTCP traffic based on =
some logic. That logic could be a =E2=80=9Cproxy alert=E2=80=9D flag, or =
it could be inspection of all MPTCP SYNs=E2=80=99 payloads (data-on-SYN =
issues are probably not such big deal in your relatively controlled =
environments), or it could be using RFC 2113 RAO. It does not need to be =
an MPTCP option specific to this extension.

Regards,
Alan


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Olivier,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 4 Nov 2016, at 14:17, =
Olivier Bonaventure &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" =
class=3D"">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">Thanks for the comments, Olivier. If the working group thinks =
it would be a good idea, I would not be opposed to embedding some =
extended options support in MPTCP - as you say it seems a good chance to =
do so. I haven=E2=80=99t thought deeply yet about the various options =
below, all have their merits, but the flag sounds possibly easiest. =
Whatever extension was used, it could be particularly useful in the =
future for improved cryptographic handshakes.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">This does not change my view, however, that MPTCP options =
should not be used for application-layer purposes, and that=E2=80=99s my =
main issue with MP_CONVERT as written - it=E2=80=99s a =
non-MPTCP-specific application-layer signal masquerading as a MPTCP =
option.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">It's clear that a =
proxy can be developed entirely as an application. SOCKSv5 is one =
example. The main drawback with SOCKS is that this adds several =
round-trip-times to each connection establishment to setup the proxy. =
With an option in the SYN, a proxy to operate with zero-rtt overhead. =
Reducing latency is an objective that is shared by other working groups, =
see e.g. TLS 1.3, QUIC and others...<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">One of us is clearly missing some key piece of information, =
since I still don=E2=80=99t know how we can be arguing something that =
seems so fundamentally clear to me.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is a clear-cut application <i =
class=3D"">on top of</i> MPTCP. In explicit mode, the application =
protocol is:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- =
a few bytes of signal that defines the real target address</div><div =
class=3D"">- followed by the proxied payload</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not saying =E2=80=9Cuse =
SOCKS=E2=80=9D - you have a proposal for a 0-RTT proxy signalling =
protocol here. That=E2=80=99s fine. <i class=3D"">But it=E2=80=99s not =
MPTCP-specific</i>. Why are you trying to make it a MPTCP =
option?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As I =
said in the reply to Med, the implicit mode is slightly more difficult =
since you are expecting interception of MPTCP traffic based on some =
logic. That logic could be a =E2=80=9Cproxy alert=E2=80=9D flag, or it =
could be inspection of all MPTCP SYNs=E2=80=99 payloads (data-on-SYN =
issues are probably not such big deal in your relatively controlled =
environments), or it could be using RFC 2113 RAO. It does not need to be =
an MPTCP option specific to this extension.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Fri Nov  4 08:24:09 2016
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From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi, Med,


On 11/4/2016 8:07 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> Re-,
>
> I'm familiar with those documents, Joe. 
Given those docs explain why SYN data is not a viable way forward, can
you explain why you think it now is?

Further, EDO would be exactly the generic version of what Oliver
proposed. So if SYN data could be used, all we would need to do would be
to update the EDO WG doc to use the long ("extension") variant in the
SYN and SYN-ACK rather than the short ("supported") variant. But again,
that won't work.

> In addition to the proposal shared by Olivier, we are also considering this one: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-tcpm-capability-option-00 for managed environments. 

That variant avoids 1 byte per kind, but only for 2-byte kinds. Those
options consume very little space in the SYN and even if they were
compressed to near zero the SYN would lack space to support a
combination of multibyte kinds. I.e., it adds complexity without
usefully addressing the problem of SYN space.

Joe


From nobody Fri Nov  4 08:55:31 2016
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>, "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 16:43:16 +0000
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D945B7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <428609FE-DE79-45CD-B668-EF95F409B593@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <8bed05c5-9f6f-04aa-8aa8-690aa3ce30f4@uclouvain.be> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <e81c001b-ba6b-2990-9a62-09622e1339e1@uclouvain.be> <ACE6C987-A8AD-477B-986C-CFB4A438323F@gmail.com> <8074e8da-71ba-633d-dd67-6fc37adf19e5@uclouvain.be> <E9ECBC32-A8F1-4C9A-9D26-A3FF64C815FA@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DACA51@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Err, exactly the way you=E2=80=99re proposing doing it today. In the TCP =
payload. Just don=E2=80=99t pretend it=E2=80=99s an MPTCP option when =
it=E2=80=99s not.

I was hoping that when these drafts were merged there would be a single =
desired deployment model, but it seems not. Explicit mode and Implicit =
mode are very different. Explicit mode is a proxy solution purely at the =
application layer and is not MPTCP-specific. You signal to a proxy - =
which is expecting it - information in the payload to define where the =
data is to be proxied on to.

The problem seems to be for implicit mode only. And more than that, =
it=E2=80=99s for implicit mode between two MCPs. I.e. scenario 3 in your =
document.

Looking again at the implicit mode scenario, in =
draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerations-00.txt, you have a case of a =
host (H1) which sends data to the far end; this is intercepted by the =
MCP, sent on as TCP-only, and the MCP inserts its own addresses. This =
does not need any additional signals to operate.

You later raised a scenario in an email which is not specifically stated =
in the document - one where you have TCP -> MCP1 -> MPTCP -> MCP2 -> TCP =
and you need to know if it=E2=80=99s come from another MCP or from the =
endpoint. Only data coming from MCP1 should be proxied. And MCP1 does =
not know about MCP2 so cannot address it directly.

But normal implicit mode operation would still work here, wouldn=E2=80=99t=
 it? MCP2 could blindly add itself to the path in all cases. Does it =
actually matter if the MPTCP is coming from MCP1 or the end host?

Your email described a desire not to revert to TCP after MCP2 if the end =
host, rather than MCP1, had sent the MPTCP signalling. But surely that =
problem would go away if you decided to proxy based on the far end=E2=80=99=
s MPTCP capability - i.e. on the SYN/ACK, not the SYN?

I came into this email thinking I=E2=80=99d finally understood the =
scenario where a signal is required, but I=E2=80=99m now confused again. =
Please help me understand here!

Regards,
Alan

> On 4 Nov 2016, at 15:55, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> =
<mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>=20
> Re-,
> =20
> If not an MPTCP option, which channel you would use to pass in-band =
some information between two MPTCP peers (client/proxy, proxy/proxy) =
while allowing for variable data to be exchanged, multiple instances to =
be included, no interference with TFO, etc. AND ensure interoperability =
between MPTCP peers?
> =20
> Cheers,
> Med
> =20
> De : Alan Ford [mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com]=20
> Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 4 novembre 2016 16:18
> =C3=80 : Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
> Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; multipathtcp@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
> =20
> Hi Olivier,
> =20
> On 4 Nov 2016, at 14:17, Olivier Bonaventure =
<Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be =
<mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Thanks for the comments, Olivier. If the working group thinks it would =
be a good idea, I would not be opposed to embedding some extended =
options support in MPTCP - as you say it seems a good chance to do so. I =
haven=E2=80=99t thought deeply yet about the various options below, all =
have their merits, but the flag sounds possibly easiest. Whatever =
extension was used, it could be particularly useful in the future for =
improved cryptographic handshakes.
>=20
> This does not change my view, however, that MPTCP options should not =
be used for application-layer purposes, and that=E2=80=99s my main issue =
with MP_CONVERT as written - it=E2=80=99s a non-MPTCP-specific =
application-layer signal masquerading as a MPTCP option.
>=20
> It's clear that a proxy can be developed entirely as an application. =
SOCKSv5 is one example. The main drawback with SOCKS is that this adds =
several round-trip-times to each connection establishment to setup the =
proxy. With an option in the SYN, a proxy to operate with zero-rtt =
overhead. Reducing latency is an objective that is shared by other =
working groups, see e.g. TLS 1.3, QUIC and others...
> =20
> One of us is clearly missing some key piece of information, since I =
still don=E2=80=99t know how we can be arguing something that seems so =
fundamentally clear to me.
> =20
> This is a clear-cut application on top of MPTCP. In explicit mode, the =
application protocol is:
> =20
> - a few bytes of signal that defines the real target address
> - followed by the proxied payload
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m not saying =E2=80=9Cuse SOCKS=E2=80=9D - you have a =
proposal for a 0-RTT proxy signalling protocol here. That=E2=80=99s =
fine. But it=E2=80=99s not MPTCP-specific. Why are you trying to make it =
a MPTCP option?
> =20
> As I said in the reply to Med, the implicit mode is slightly more =
difficult since you are expecting interception of MPTCP traffic based on =
some logic. That logic could be a =E2=80=9Cproxy alert=E2=80=9D flag, or =
it could be inspection of all MPTCP SYNs=E2=80=99 payloads (data-on-SYN =
issues are probably not such big deal in your relatively controlled =
environments), or it could be using RFC 2113 RAO. It does not need to be =
an MPTCP option specific to this extension.
> =20
> Regards,
> Alan


--Apple-Mail=_52266E44-3A41-4967-B516-CB560BE32DC5
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Err, exactly the way you=E2=80=99re proposing doing it today. =
In the TCP payload. Just don=E2=80=99t pretend it=E2=80=99s an MPTCP =
option when it=E2=80=99s not.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I was hoping that when these drafts were =
merged there would be a single desired deployment model, but it seems =
not. Explicit mode and Implicit mode are very different. Explicit mode =
is a proxy solution purely at the application layer and is not =
MPTCP-specific. You signal to a proxy - which is expecting it - =
information in the payload to define where the data is to be proxied on =
to.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
problem seems to be for implicit mode only. And more than that, it=E2=80=99=
s for implicit mode between two MCPs. I.e. scenario 3 in your =
document.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Looking again at the implicit mode scenario, =
in&nbsp;draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerations-00.txt, you have a =
case of a host (H1) which sends data to the far end; this is intercepted =
by the MCP, sent on as TCP-only, and the MCP inserts its own addresses. =
This does not need any additional signals to operate.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You later raised a =
scenario in an email which is not specifically stated in the document - =
one where you have TCP -&gt; MCP1 -&gt; MPTCP -&gt; MCP2 -&gt; TCP and =
you need to know if it=E2=80=99s come from another MCP or from the =
endpoint. Only data coming from MCP1 should be proxied. And MCP1 does =
not know about MCP2 so cannot address it directly.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But normal implicit mode =
operation would still work here, wouldn=E2=80=99t it? MCP2 could blindly =
add itself to the path in all cases. Does it actually matter if the =
MPTCP is coming from MCP1 or the end host?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Your email described a desire not to =
revert to TCP after MCP2 if the end host, rather than MCP1, had sent the =
MPTCP signalling. But surely that problem would go away if you decided =
to proxy based on the far end=E2=80=99s MPTCP capability - i.e. on the =
SYN/ACK, not the SYN?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I came into this email thinking I=E2=80=99d finally =
understood the scenario where a signal is required, but I=E2=80=99m now =
confused again. Please help me understand here!</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 4 Nov 2016, at 15:55, &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">Re-,<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">If not an MPTCP option, which channel you =
would use to pass in-band some information between two MPTCP peers =
(client/proxy, proxy/proxy) while allowing for variable data to be =
exchanged, multiple instances to be included, no interference with TFO, =
etc. AND ensure interoperability between MPTCP peers?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">Cheers,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">Med<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Alan Ford [<a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>vendredi 4 novembre 2016 =
16:18<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">=C3=80&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" =
class=3D"">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; =
multipathtcp@ietf.org<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Objet&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [multipathtcp] =
potential MPTCP proxy charter item<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi Olivier,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 4 =
Nov 2016, at 14:17, Olivier Bonaventure &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Thanks=
 for the comments, Olivier. If the working group thinks it would be a =
good idea, I would not be opposed to embedding some extended options =
support in MPTCP - as you say it seems a good chance to do so. I =
haven=E2=80=99t thought deeply yet about the various options below, all =
have their merits, but the flag sounds possibly easiest. Whatever =
extension was used, it could be particularly useful in the future for =
improved cryptographic handshakes.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">This =
does not change my view, however, that MPTCP options should not be used =
for application-layer purposes, and that=E2=80=99s my main issue with =
MP_CONVERT as written - it=E2=80=99s a non-MPTCP-specific =
application-layer signal masquerading as a MPTCP option.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">It's clear that a proxy can be developed entirely as an =
application. SOCKSv5 is one example. The main drawback with SOCKS is =
that this adds several round-trip-times to each connection establishment =
to setup the proxy. With an option in the SYN, a proxy to operate with =
zero-rtt overhead. Reducing latency is an objective that is shared by =
other working groups, see e.g. TLS 1.3, QUIC and others...<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">One of us is clearly missing some key piece of =
information, since I still don=E2=80=99t know how we can be arguing =
something that seems so fundamentally clear to me.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">This is a clear-cut application<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i class=3D"">on top =
of</i><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>MPTCP. In =
explicit mode, the application protocol is:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">- a few bytes of signal that defines the =
real target address<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">- followed by the proxied payload<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not saying =E2=80=9Cuse =
SOCKS=E2=80=9D - you have a proposal for a 0-RTT proxy signalling =
protocol here. That=E2=80=99s fine.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i class=3D"">But it=E2=80=99=
s not MPTCP-specific</i>. Why are you trying to make it a MPTCP =
option?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">As I said in the reply to Med, the implicit mode is =
slightly more difficult since you are expecting interception of MPTCP =
traffic based on some logic. That logic could be a =E2=80=9Cproxy =
alert=E2=80=9D flag, or it could be inspection of all MPTCP SYNs=E2=80=99 =
payloads (data-on-SYN issues are probably not such big deal in your =
relatively controlled environments), or it could be using RFC 2113 RAO. =
It does not need to be an MPTCP option specific to this extension.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Alan</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hello,

On 04/11/16 - 11:02:02, Alan Ford wrote:
> > On 4 Nov 2016, at 10:12, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
> >> -----Message d'origine-----
> >> De : Mirja Kühlewind [mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch]
> >> Envoyé : vendredi 4 novembre 2016 10:34
> >> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Alan Ford
> >> Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org
> >> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
> >> 
> >> Hi all,
> >> 
> >> first, I agree with Alan that such a signal does not need to/should not be
> >> part of the MPTCP protocol.
> > 
> > [Med] Defining another channel to carry the signal "I want to be MPTCP-proxied" outside the MPTCP normal channel will import the same set of hindrances we had with MPTCP design for middlebloxes traversal. The use of MPTCP to convey the "I want to be MPTCP-proxied" leverages on base MPTCP to detect "unfriendly MPTCP" in-path nodes. That's a pragmatic engineering design. 
> 
> The MP_CONVERT signal has multiple purposes. When signalled with a target IP address in explicit mode, it is a pure application-layer signal, and is separate from the MPTCP connection entering the MCP.
> 
> In implicit mode this is indeed at a slightly different layer, and yes, you are asking the network to do something. But it’s still not a necessary part of the MPTCP protocol to make this happen. This is similar to a transparent HTTP proxy, or to a NAT - neither requires any changes to HTTP or TCP/IP to work.
> 
> You could detect MPTCP SYNs and see if your signal is present. If you don’t want to be inspecting every MPTCP SYN in implicit mode, use an existing standard - I suggest RAO. Given this is a controlled environment, you shouldn’t have any deployment concerns here.
> 
> If RAO is not appropriate for some reason, I might be persuaded that a flag in the MP_CAPABLE that says “proxies should inspect this” could be added to the base protocol. However, the rest of the protocol - i.e. the MP_CONVERT signal - is application-layer and outside MPTCP.
> 
> Ultimately MPTCP Proxying is an application of MPTCP and should be defined as such.

I'm also late on this thread. But just want to reiterate what I already
mentioned before in July.

I also think that proxying between different transport-layer protocols is not
an MPTCP-specific operation and as such should not be tied to MPTCP.
Making it independent of MPTCP would be much better as it allows to proxy
across any kind of transport protocol. So, let's just put it (as already
suggested) in the payload, without linking it to MPTCP.


Christoph


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Subject: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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Hello,

As we agreed in Berlin during IETF96, here are a few email to discuss
the contributions proposed in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/

The backup mode defined in RC6824 only supports an "all-or- nothing"
mode in the usage of
the subflows, where an host might just prefer to use certain subflow 
over others.
To allow an host to inform the receving host about its preference in
terms of subflow usage, we propose to modify the ADD_ADDR option by
adding 3 "priority" bits.
A host receving a priority for a sub MAY use this information in it's
scheduling decisions.

To allow the priority of an already established subflow to be modified,
we propose to modify the MP_PRIO option by adding the 3 priority bits
next to the "B" flag.

For the moment, the priority field is interpreted as an unsigned integer
with the highest numerical value being the most preferred one, but this
is up to discussions, but this point is up to discussion.

Fabien



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Subject: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 5/5 - Communities
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Hello,

As we agreed in Berlin during IETF96, here are a few email to discuss
the contributions proposed in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/

To allow a host to inform the receiving host about the diversity of
several addresses we propose to modify the ADD_ADDR to include 4 bits
describing a "Community" associated to this address.
The community values are an opaque field and it is expected that two
addresses having the same community share some resources.

With the community bits, a dual-stack host could elect to regroup all
the addresses attached to a single interface under the same community,
allowing the receiving host to decide on which advertised addresses it
wants to establish new subflows.
This is because in the case of a dual-stack host, establishing v4 and V6
subflows
is not always the best solution.
The idea here is to design a generic solution to regroup the address
that shares
the same forwarding type in a specific class.

Fabien


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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <428609FE-DE79-45CD-B668-EF95F409B593@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <8bed05c5-9f6f-04aa-8aa8-690aa3ce30f4@uclouvain.be> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 22:06:49 +0100
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Alan,

>> [Med] The scenario is about an MPTCP-capable host located behind a
>> CPE(MCP). This is typically an iPhone connected behind a CPE. We want
>> that MPTCP communications issued from this host are forwarded as such
>> to their destination without soliciting the downstream MCP.
>
> OK I understand this scenario now, it is special for implicit mode,
> since if the CPE was acting in explicit mode, it would address the
> packets to the MCP.
>
> What are the benefits of using implicit mode in this scenario? This is
> so you can target it to an MCP without knowing the target address. Are
> there any other reasons why this would be used rather than explicit
> mode? And what sort of deployment would this scenario exist in?

The implicit mode was suggested by network operators. The MCP resides on 
the path between the CPE and the destination server. The main benefit of 
the implicit mode is that the MCP does not need to perform any address 
translation. Given all the complications with NAT, this is a huge 
benefit, in particular in IPv6 deployments. In IPv4 deployments, the CPE 
can use a single address and there is no need for a pool of IPv4 
addresses on the MCP.

In implicit mode, the MCP needs to distinguish between an MP_CAPABLE 
generated by the endhost and an MP_CAPABLE added by the CPE.

Olivier


From nobody Sun Nov  6 13:12:18 2016
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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Mohamed Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <4fceb7e5-a0b0-d4d2-8669-fad0df59095d@uclouvain.be>
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 22:12:05 +0100
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Mirja,
>
> first, I agree with Alan that such a signal does not need to/should not be part of the MPTCP protocol.

Adding the signal inside MPTCP reduces the end-to-end delay compared 
with a pure application layer solution likes SOCKS and this is really 
important.

> MPTCP (as TCP is) is an end2end protocol. If you have one (or two) proxies in the middle, you split up the connection into multiple new ‚end2end‘ connections. If you need additional signaling information on one of the new connections, that a question for a high-layer protocol that uses MPTCP (which is what you do, when you propose it to be part of the payload).

SOCKS has been tried in some deployments with MPTCP and it increases the 
end-to-end delay given the additional rtt that are required.
>
> Second, I’m not a big fan of the a two side proxy scenario where one side simply assumes that the destination is not MPTCP-capable. This does not support MPTCP deployment but hinders native MPTCP deployment (basically ensuring that these proxies stay forever in the network and add additional complexity even if all endpoints are MPTCP-enabled one day). I guess a proxy should always first forward the MCTCP handshake and only if the reply does not support MPTCP, then termite the connection, reply the initiator accordingly and setup a new TCP to the destination. This might cause additional delay but it provides a big benefit if the destination is MPTCP-capable and supports native deployment.

It's clear that the MCP should send the MP_CAPABLE option in the SYN 
towards the destination server and fallback to TCP is this fails. Since 
there are some middleboxes that continue to silently drop the MP_CAPABLE 
option, the MCP should be able to maintain a list of destination servers 
where it had to fallback to regular TCP (e.g. after n retransmissions of 
the SYN with MP_CAPABLE as suggested in RFC6824) and no attempt to use 
MPTCP for these destinations. This cache should be reset on a regular 
basis to probe again the destination servers.


Olivier


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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Alan,

>>
>> It's clear that a proxy can be developed entirely as an application.
>> SOCKSv5 is one example. The main drawback with SOCKS is that this adds
>> several round-trip-times to each connection establishment to setup the
>> proxy. With an option in the SYN, a proxy to operate with zero-rtt
>> overhead. Reducing latency is an objective that is shared by other
>> working groups, see e.g. TLS 1.3, QUIC and others...
>
> One of us is clearly missing some key piece of information, since I
> still don’t know how we can be arguing something that seems so
> fundamentally clear to me.
>
> This is a clear-cut application /on top of/ MPTCP. In explicit mode, the
> application protocol is:
>
> - a few bytes of signal that defines the real target address
> - followed by the proxied payload
>
> I’m not saying “use SOCKS” - you have a proposal for a 0-RTT proxy
> signalling protocol here. That’s fine. /But it’s not MPTCP-specific/.

Indeed, the same could apply for TCP, SCTP and probably any transport 
protocol.

> Why are you trying to make it a MPTCP option?

The need comes from MPTCP. It could be defined as a TCP option instead 
of an MPTCP option. I think that explicitly specifying a proxy node is a 
useful feature that should be part of the transport protocol and not 
tied to a specific application. We are less and less in a pure 
end-to-end deployment model for the Internet and making those transport 
proxies explicit would make sense.

> As I said in the reply to Med, the implicit mode is slightly more
> difficult since you are expecting interception of MPTCP traffic based on
> some logic. That logic could be a “proxy alert” flag, or it could be
> inspection of all MPTCP SYNs’ payloads (data-on-SYN issues are probably
> not such big deal in your relatively controlled environments), or it
> could be using RFC 2113 RAO. It does not need to be an MPTCP option
> specific to this extension.

RAO is not a solution because support for IP options on routers is far 
from optimal. The main reason why we proposed to use the option in 
implicit mode is because the working group asked to merge the plain-mode 
and transparent mode drafts in July.


Olivier


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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Mirja,
>
> I really don’t buy our argument why you should develop such a mechanism for MPTCP only compared to a generic solution that could be used by all (existing and future) TCP extensions. MPTCP is not the only extension that could make use of this (tcpinc is another example) and I’m sure there will more mechanisms in future that would benefit from additional option space in the SYN.
>

I'd be very happy if TCPM came up with a solution to this problem that 
works for any TCP extension, but progress in this domain as been very 
slow. On the other hand, the deployment of MPTCP could be an opportunity 
to rethink the way options are negotiated in the SYN and improve that 
for the future without being forced to support 30 years of history of 
TCP stacks.

Tomorrow's hosts will very likely be multihomed and if not, they will 
probably use multiple IPv6 addresses. On such hosts, the ability to 
switch from one address to another will a common requirement. MPTCP 
handles those changes in a clean way.

As a working group, let us imagine that MPTCP becomes the default 
reliable transport protocol by year 202x and that all hosts use MPTCP. 
Having this dream in mind, what could we do today to ensure that MPTCP 
is an clean and evolvable protocol. Here are a few ideas :

- Ensure that the option space in the SYN is large enough to carry the 
options that are required, e.g. to exchange key material for tcpinc

- Why not consider that sending MP_CAPABLE implies other options that 
are negotiated independently today, e.g. :

    - WScale option (would it make sense in 202x to use a 64KB window ?)
    - TCP SACK (would it make sense in 202x to create a connection 
without SACK)
    - Although timestamp option is often negotiated today and required 
by RFC7323 for PAWS, MPTCP does not require PAWS since it uses 64bits DSNs
    - Could we include the TFO negotiation inside the MP_CAPABLE option ?

This would reduce option space in the SYN and simplify the MPTCP stack.




Olivier



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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <3fb34255-bfdd-832e-4143-3872ed4b5d93@uclouvain.be>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 06:22:34 +0000
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D945B7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <428609FE-DE79-45CD-B668-EF95F409B593@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <8bed05c5-9f6f-04aa-8aa8-690aa3ce30f4@uclouvain.be> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <e81c001b-ba6b-2990-9a62-09622e1339e1@uclouvain.be> <ACE6C987-A8AD-477B-986C-CFB4A438323F@gmail.com> <8074e8da-71ba-633d-dd67-6fc37adf19e5@uclouvain.be> <E9ECBC32-A8F1-4C9A-9D26-A3FF64C815FA@gmail.com> <3fb34255-bfdd-832e-4143-3872ed4b5d93@uclouvain.be>
To: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi Olivier,

> On 6 Nov 2016, at 21:25, Olivier Bonaventure =
<Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>>=20
>> One of us is clearly missing some key piece of information, since I
>> still don=E2=80=99t know how we can be arguing something that seems =
so
>> fundamentally clear to me.
>>=20
>> This is a clear-cut application /on top of/ MPTCP. In explicit mode, =
the
>> application protocol is:
>>=20
>> - a few bytes of signal that defines the real target address
>> - followed by the proxied payload
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m not saying =E2=80=9Cuse SOCKS=E2=80=9D - you have a =
proposal for a 0-RTT proxy
>> signalling protocol here. That=E2=80=99s fine. /But it=E2=80=99s not =
MPTCP-specific/.
>=20
> Indeed, the same could apply for TCP, SCTP and probably any transport =
protocol.

Good, I=E2=80=99m glad we agree here :-)

>> Why are you trying to make it a MPTCP option?
>=20
> The need comes from MPTCP. It could be defined as a TCP option instead =
of an MPTCP option. I think that explicitly specifying a proxy node is a =
useful feature that should be part of the transport protocol and not =
tied to a specific application. We are less and less in a pure =
end-to-end deployment model for the Internet and making those transport =
proxies explicit would make sense.

Why is it an option, however? When you are explicitly targeting a proxy =
node, surely the proxy is just as capable of pulling the data out of the =
payload here?

>> As I said in the reply to Med, the implicit mode is slightly more
>> difficult since you are expecting interception of MPTCP traffic based =
on
>> some logic. That logic could be a =E2=80=9Cproxy alert=E2=80=9D flag, =
or it could be
>> inspection of all MPTCP SYNs=E2=80=99 payloads (data-on-SYN issues =
are probably
>> not such big deal in your relatively controlled environments), or it
>> could be using RFC 2113 RAO. It does not need to be an MPTCP option
>> specific to this extension.
>=20
> RAO is not a solution because support for IP options on routers is far =
from optimal. The main reason why we proposed to use the option in =
implicit mode is because the working group asked to merge the plain-mode =
and transparent mode drafts in July.

I was under the impression you would be deploying this is controlled =
networks, or at least networks where operators had full choice of the =
equipment (CPEs and proxies) that would be deployed.

Regards,
Alan


--Apple-Mail=_345BBAC3-8CFD-4C6D-B256-B52891334FCD
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Olivier,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 6 Nov 2016, at 21:25, =
Olivier Bonaventure &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" =
class=3D"">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">One of us is clearly missing some key piece of information, =
since I<br class=3D"">still don=E2=80=99t know how we can be arguing =
something that seems so<br class=3D"">fundamentally clear to me.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">This is a clear-cut application /on top of/ =
MPTCP. In explicit mode, the<br class=3D"">application protocol is:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">- a few bytes of signal that defines the real =
target address<br class=3D"">- followed by the proxied payload<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not saying =E2=80=9Cuse SOCKS=E2=80=9D=
 - you have a proposal for a 0-RTT proxy<br class=3D"">signalling =
protocol here. That=E2=80=99s fine. /But it=E2=80=99s not =
MPTCP-specific/.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Indeed, the =
same could apply for TCP, SCTP and probably any transport protocol.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Good, =
I=E2=80=99m glad we agree here :-)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Why are you trying to =
make it a MPTCP option?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">The =
need comes from MPTCP. It could be defined as a TCP option instead of an =
MPTCP option. I think that explicitly specifying a proxy node is a =
useful feature that should be part of the transport protocol and not =
tied to a specific application. We are less and less in a pure =
end-to-end deployment model for the Internet and making those transport =
proxies explicit would make sense.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Why is it =
an <i class=3D"">option</i>, however? When you are explicitly targeting =
a proxy node, surely the proxy is just as capable of pulling the data =
out of the payload here?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">As I said =
in the reply to Med, the implicit mode is slightly more<br =
class=3D"">difficult since you are expecting interception of MPTCP =
traffic based on<br class=3D"">some logic. That logic could be a =
=E2=80=9Cproxy alert=E2=80=9D flag, or it could be<br =
class=3D"">inspection of all MPTCP SYNs=E2=80=99 payloads (data-on-SYN =
issues are probably<br class=3D"">not such big deal in your relatively =
controlled environments), or it<br class=3D"">could be using RFC 2113 =
RAO. It does not need to be an MPTCP option<br class=3D"">specific to =
this extension.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">RAO is not a =
solution because support for IP options on routers is far from optimal. =
The main reason why we proposed to use the option in implicit mode is =
because the working group asked to merge the plain-mode and transparent =
mode drafts in July.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div>I was under the impression you would be =
deploying this is controlled networks, or at least networks where =
operators had full choice of the equipment (CPEs and proxies) that would =
be deployed.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Alan</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <87270f12-59ee-3caf-eeef-685195b35dcd@uclouvain.be>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 06:22:36 +0000
Message-Id: <A5256E6E-E2BA-4763-AEF9-3CC50EB432A2@gmail.com>
References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <428609FE-DE79-45CD-B668-EF95F409B593@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <8bed05c5-9f6f-04aa-8aa8-690aa3ce30f4@uclouvain.be> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <87270f12-59ee-3caf-eeef-685195b35dcd@uclouvain.be>
To: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi Olivier,

> On 6 Nov 2016, at 21:06, Olivier Bonaventure =
<Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>=20
> The implicit mode was suggested by network operators. The MCP resides =
on the path between the CPE and the destination server. The main benefit =
of the implicit mode is that the MCP does not need to perform any =
address translation. Given all the complications with NAT, this is a =
huge benefit, in particular in IPv6 deployments. In IPv4 deployments, =
the CPE can use a single address and there is no need for a pool of IPv4 =
addresses on the MCP.
>=20
> In implicit mode, the MCP needs to distinguish between an MP_CAPABLE =
generated by the endhost and an MP_CAPABLE added by the CPE.

Broad question - why?

If the answer is simply =93to know when to terminate the MPTCP =
connection=94 (i.e. if the end host does it you want it to run all the =
way to destination, but if the CPE has done it you want to handle at the =
proxy), then thinking out loud here, could the desired behaviour not be =
achieved by deciding to proxy only based on the SYN/ACK (i.e. based on =
the far end=92s capabilities) and otherwise be transparently adding =
MPTCP to everything? That way you get even greater MPTCP coverage whilst =
not interfering with destinations which have already deployed it.

Regards,
Alan


--Apple-Mail=_4D619603-974F-4485-9F38-251782E66D27
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Olivier,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 6 Nov 2016, at 21:06, =
Olivier Bonaventure &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" =
class=3D"">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">The implicit mode was =
suggested by network operators. The MCP resides on the path between the =
CPE and the destination server. The main benefit of the implicit mode is =
that the MCP does not need to perform any address translation. Given all =
the complications with NAT, this is a huge benefit, in particular in =
IPv6 deployments. In IPv4 deployments, the CPE can use a single address =
and there is no need for a pool of IPv4 addresses on the MCP.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">In implicit mode, the MCP needs to distinguish =
between an MP_CAPABLE generated by the endhost and an MP_CAPABLE added =
by the CPE.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Broad question - why?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If the answer is simply =
=93to know when to terminate the MPTCP connection=94 (i.e. if the end =
host does it you want it to run all the way to destination, but if the =
CPE has done it you want to handle at the proxy), then thinking out loud =
here, could the desired behaviour not be achieved by deciding to proxy =
only based on the SYN/ACK (i.e. based on the far end=92s capabilities) =
and otherwise be transparently adding MPTCP to <i =
class=3D"">everything</i>? That way you get even greater MPTCP coverage =
whilst not interfering with destinations which have already deployed =
it.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Regards,</div><div class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Alan,

>>
>> Indeed, the same could apply for TCP, SCTP and probably any transport
>> protocol.
>
> Good, I’m glad we agree here :-)
>
>>> Why are you trying to make it a MPTCP option?
>>
>> The need comes from MPTCP. It could be defined as a TCP option instead
>> of an MPTCP option. I think that explicitly specifying a proxy node is
>> a useful feature that should be part of the transport protocol and not
>> tied to a specific application. We are less and less in a pure
>> end-to-end deployment model for the Internet and making those
>> transport proxies explicit would make sense.
>
> Why is it an /option/, however? When you are explicitly targeting a
> proxy node, surely the proxy is just as capable of pulling the data out
> of the payload here?
>

Because the addressing information that is used for the proxy is part of 
the control plane and not part of the bytestream. I think that it is 
very important from an architectural viewpoint to maintain a clean 
separation between the byte stream that is exchanged between the 
applications and all control information that should be placed inside 
options.

We explore the possibility of adding information in the bytestream for 
MPTCP and eventually decided to place all control information in 
options. If you look at HTTP, proxy-related information is part of the 
HTTP headers and not part of the payload. This is the same type of problem.


Olivier




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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Alan,
>
>> On 6 Nov 2016, at 21:06, Olivier Bonaventure
>> <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
>> <mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>> wrote:
>>
>> The implicit mode was suggested by network operators. The MCP resides
>> on the path between the CPE and the destination server. The main
>> benefit of the implicit mode is that the MCP does not need to perform
>> any address translation. Given all the complications with NAT, this is
>> a huge benefit, in particular in IPv6 deployments. In IPv4
>> deployments, the CPE can use a single address and there is no need for
>> a pool of IPv4 addresses on the MCP.
>>
>> In implicit mode, the MCP needs to distinguish between an MP_CAPABLE
>> generated by the endhost and an MP_CAPABLE added by the CPE.
>
> Broad question - why?
>
> If the answer is simply “to know when to terminate the MPTCP connection”
> (i.e. if the end host does it you want it to run all the way to
> destination, but if the CPE has done it you want to handle at the
> proxy), then thinking out loud here, could the desired behaviour not be
> achieved by deciding to proxy only based on the SYN/ACK (i.e. based on
> the far end’s capabilities) and otherwise be transparently adding MPTCP
> to /everything/? That way you get even greater MPTCP coverage whilst not
> interfering with destinations which have already deployed it.


The problem is more complex than this because the connecitivity on the 
CPE is not the same as connectivity on the endhost. Consider the 
following scenario :

laptop <-----------+
                    |
smartphone <----> cpe <-------> mcp <------> server
     +              +
  cellular1     cellular2

The MCP resides on the DSL path between the CPE and the server.

The laptop is connected over WiFi and the CPE converts the TCP 
connection onto an MPTCP connection to bond DSL and cellular2.

The smartphone is connected over wifi to the cpe which is connected over 
DSL to the server via the MCP. When the smartphone uses MPTCP, it wants 
to use WiFi and cellular1. It could start over WiFi and then moves and 
want to switch to cellular1. The MCP has no idea of cellular1 and cannot 
terminate an MPTCP connection created by the smartphone.



Olivier


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To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Christoph,

>>>
>>> [Med] Defining another channel to carry the signal "I want to be MPTCP-proxied" outside the MPTCP normal channel will import the same set of hindrances we had with MPTCP design for middlebloxes traversal. The use of MPTCP to convey the "I want to be MPTCP-proxied" leverages on base MPTCP to detect "unfriendly MPTCP" in-path nodes. That's a pragmatic engineering design.
>>
>> The MP_CONVERT signal has multiple purposes. When signalled with a target IP address in explicit mode, it is a pure application-layer signal, and is separate from the MPTCP connection entering the MCP.
>>
>> In implicit mode this is indeed at a slightly different layer, and yes, you are asking the network to do something. But it’s still not a necessary part of the MPTCP protocol to make this happen. This is similar to a transparent HTTP proxy, or to a NAT - neither requires any changes to HTTP or TCP/IP to work.
>>
>> You could detect MPTCP SYNs and see if your signal is present. If you don’t want to be inspecting every MPTCP SYN in implicit mode, use an existing standard - I suggest RAO. Given this is a controlled environment, you shouldn’t have any deployment concerns here.
>>
>> If RAO is not appropriate for some reason, I might be persuaded that a flag in the MP_CAPABLE that says “proxies should inspect this” could be added to the base protocol. However, the rest of the protocol - i.e. the MP_CONVERT signal - is application-layer and outside MPTCP.
>>
>> Ultimately MPTCP Proxying is an application of MPTCP and should be defined as such.
>
> I'm also late on this thread. But just want to reiterate what I already
> mentioned before in July.
>
> I also think that proxying between different transport-layer protocols is not
> an MPTCP-specific operation and as such should not be tied to MPTCP.
> Making it independent of MPTCP would be much better as it allows to proxy
> across any kind of transport protocol. So, let's just put it (as already
> suggested) in the payload, without linking it to MPTCP.


 From an architectural viewpoint, providing addressing information for a 
proxy is clearly outside the bytestream exchanged by the application. It 
is cleaner to place this control plane information inside options 
instead of messing up the bytestream and changing the first few bytes of 
each connection. I think that we should have a clean separation between 
the control plane and the data plane in MPTCP. We already use options to 
carry addressing information related to the endhosts (ADD_ADDR, 
REMOVE_ADDR), the addresses required by the proxy are the same type of 
information and they should also be exchanged as TCP options. Encoding 
them in the payload would likely create more problems in the long term.


Olivier


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>, Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
Thread-Index: AQHSOMxpayJRa0DxWkKm1qMiPvLa9aDNLRvg
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 08:45:10 +0000
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <87270f12-59ee-3caf-eeef-685195b35dcd@uclouvain.be> <A5256E6E-E2BA-4763-AEF9-3CC50EB432A2@gmail.com> <62c065c9-3ce5-5c46-91f4-41c2f4707f69@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Re-,

In addition to what was mentioned by Olivier, and from where I sit, an answ=
er to Alan's question is also the result of a tension between the e2e princ=
iple and deployment requirements:
1.	Favor e2e MPTCP connections (Goal 1)
2.	Optimize MCP resources usage (Goal 2)
3.	Allow for policies to determine flows eligible to the network-assisted M=
PTCP (Goal 3)

Requiring that every MPTCP host will be eligible to use MCP resources is no=
t viable, IMHO.=20

The solution that allows to distinguish in a deterministic manner native MP=
TCP connections from proxied one has the advantages:
.	to not interfere with native MPTCP connections issued from MPTCP capable =
host, by default (Goal 1).
.	solid signal to the MCP when it should be involved (or not) (Goal 2)
.	Native MPTCP connections can benefit from the NAM service **IF** policies=
 provided to the CPE allow for that (Goal 3).=20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Olivier Bonaventure [mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be]
> Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 7 novembre 2016 08:56
> =C0=A0: Alan Ford
> Cc=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; multipathtcp@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
>=20
> Alan,
> >
> >> On 6 Nov 2016, at 21:06, Olivier Bonaventure
> >> <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
> >> <mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>> wrote:
> >>
> >> The implicit mode was suggested by network operators. The MCP resides
> >> on the path between the CPE and the destination server. The main
> >> benefit of the implicit mode is that the MCP does not need to perform
> >> any address translation. Given all the complications with NAT, this is
> >> a huge benefit, in particular in IPv6 deployments. In IPv4
> >> deployments, the CPE can use a single address and there is no need for
> >> a pool of IPv4 addresses on the MCP.
> >>
> >> In implicit mode, the MCP needs to distinguish between an MP_CAPABLE
> >> generated by the endhost and an MP_CAPABLE added by the CPE.
> >
> > Broad question - why?
> >
> > If the answer is simply "to know when to terminate the MPTCP connection=
"
> > (i.e. if the end host does it you want it to run all the way to
> > destination, but if the CPE has done it you want to handle at the
> > proxy), then thinking out loud here, could the desired behaviour not be
> > achieved by deciding to proxy only based on the SYN/ACK (i.e. based on
> > the far end's capabilities) and otherwise be transparently adding MPTCP
> > to /everything/? That way you get even greater MPTCP coverage whilst no=
t
> > interfering with destinations which have already deployed it.
>=20
>=20
> The problem is more complex than this because the connecitivity on the
> CPE is not the same as connectivity on the endhost. Consider the
> following scenario :
>=20
> laptop <-----------+
>                     |
> smartphone <----> cpe <-------> mcp <------> server
>      +              +
>   cellular1     cellular2
>=20
> The MCP resides on the DSL path between the CPE and the server.
>=20
> The laptop is connected over WiFi and the CPE converts the TCP
> connection onto an MPTCP connection to bond DSL and cellular2.
>=20
> The smartphone is connected over wifi to the cpe which is connected over
> DSL to the server via the MCP. When the smartphone uses MPTCP, it wants
> to use WiFi and cellular1. It could start over WiFi and then moves and
> want to switch to cellular1. The MCP has no idea of cellular1 and cannot
> terminate an MPTCP connection created by the smartphone.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Olivier


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Alan Ford" <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: Offload MPTCP Proxy (was RE: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item)
Thread-Index: AdI5CCNLdBUL1/EZRzWYNZmJsFcHsg==
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 15:03:49 +0000
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Subject: [multipathtcp] Offload MPTCP Proxy (was RE: potential MPTCP proxy charter item)
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To: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi Olivier,

a few comments/questions below.


> Am 06.11.2016 um 22:12 schrieb Olivier Bonaventure =
<Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>:
>=20
> Mirja,
>>=20
>> first, I agree with Alan that such a signal does not need to/should =
not be part of the MPTCP protocol.
>=20
> Adding the signal inside MPTCP reduces the end-to-end delay compared =
with a pure application layer solution likes SOCKS and this is really =
important.
>=20
>> MPTCP (as TCP is) is an end2end protocol. If you have one (or two) =
proxies in the middle, you split up the connection into multiple new =
=E2=80=9Aend2end=E2=80=98 connections. If you need additional signaling =
information on one of the new connections, that a question for a =
high-layer protocol that uses MPTCP (which is what you do, when you =
propose it to be part of the payload).
>=20
> SOCKS has been tried in some deployments with MPTCP and it increases =
the end-to-end delay given the additional rtt that are required.

I didn=E2=80=99t propose SOCKS. For me the solution could more or less =
be the same than you propose: you use TCP payload in the SYN for signal =
the needed information. I=E2=80=99m just saying this does not need to be =
part of the MPTCP protocol. I can simple be an own thing.

>>=20
>> Second, I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of the a two side proxy scenario =
where one side simply assumes that the destination is not MPTCP-capable. =
This does not support MPTCP deployment but hinders native MPTCP =
deployment (basically ensuring that these proxies stay forever in the =
network and add additional complexity even if all endpoints are =
MPTCP-enabled one day). I guess a proxy should always first forward the =
MCTCP handshake and only if the reply does not support MPTCP, then =
termite the connection, reply the initiator accordingly and setup a new =
TCP to the destination. This might cause additional delay but it =
provides a big benefit if the destination is MPTCP-capable and supports =
native deployment.
>=20
> It's clear that the MCP should send the MP_CAPABLE option in the SYN =
towards the destination server and fallback to TCP is this fails. Since =
there are some middleboxes that continue to silently drop the MP_CAPABLE =
option, the MCP should be able to maintain a list of destination servers =
where it had to fallback to regular TCP (e.g. after n retransmissions of =
the SYN with MP_CAPABLE as suggested in RFC6824) and no attempt to use =
MPTCP for these destinations. This cache should be reset on a regular =
basis to probe again the destination servers.

Do you mean the MCP forwards the original SYN (and basically does =
nothing if the server supports MPTCP) or does the MCP terminate the TCP =
connection and start a new TCP connection with MP_CAPABLE towards the =
server?

Mirja


>=20
>=20
> Olivier


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From: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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To: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi Olivier,

see inline.

> Am 06.11.2016 um 22:46 schrieb Olivier Bonaventure =
<Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>:
>=20
> Mirja,
>>=20
>> I really don=E2=80=99t buy our argument why you should develop such a =
mechanism for MPTCP only compared to a generic solution that could be =
used by all (existing and future) TCP extensions. MPTCP is not the only =
extension that could make use of this (tcpinc is another example) and =
I=E2=80=99m sure there will more mechanisms in future that would benefit =
from additional option space in the SYN.
>>=20
>=20
> I'd be very happy if TCPM came up with a solution to this problem that =
works for any TCP extension, but progress in this domain as been very =
slow. On the other hand, the deployment of MPTCP could be an opportunity =
to rethink the way options are negotiated in the SYN and improve that =
for the future without being forced to support 30 years of history of =
TCP stacks.

I don=E2=80=99t think supporting TCP stacks is the problem. Network =
deployment is. And MPTCP will have the same problem than plain TCP has. =
If there is an (industrial) need for tcp-edo this could drive the =
working in tcpm forward.

>=20
> Tomorrow's hosts will very likely be multihomed and if not, they will =
probably use multiple IPv6 addresses. On such hosts, the ability to =
switch from one address to another will a common requirement. MPTCP =
handles those changes in a clean way.

multipathing can be done on multiple layers of the stack. MPTCP is not =
the only solution.

>=20
> As a working group, let us imagine that MPTCP becomes the default =
reliable transport protocol by year 202x and that all hosts use MPTCP. =
Having this dream in mind, what could we do today to ensure that MPTCP =
is an clean and evolvable protocol. Here are a few ideas :
>=20
> - Ensure that the option space in the SYN is large enough to carry the =
options that are required, e.g. to exchange key material for tcpinc
>=20
> - Why not consider that sending MP_CAPABLE implies other options that =
are negotiated independently today, e.g. :

Because these are independent mechanisms and there is value in keeping =
them independent. If you want to negotiate all options at once and save =
option space, then you should specify one new TCP option instead of =
doing something like this implicit for MPTCP. That=E2=80=99s still work =
that would go into the tcpm working group. The main purpose of the mptcp =
working group currently is to specific the bis version of the protocol =
(and support documentation). However, in the long-term any tcp =
maintenance including mptcp maintenance should be done in tcpm because =
mptcp is not an own protocol; it=E2=80=99s a tcp extension.

Mirja


>=20
>   - WScale option (would it make sense in 202x to use a 64KB window ?)
>   - TCP SACK (would it make sense in 202x to create a connection =
without SACK)
>   - Although timestamp option is often negotiated today and required =
by RFC7323 for PAWS, MPTCP does not require PAWS since it uses 64bits =
DSNs
>   - Could we include the TFO negotiation inside the MP_CAPABLE option =
?
>=20
> This would reduce option space in the SYN and simplify the MPTCP =
stack.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Olivier
>=20


From nobody Mon Nov  7 07:56:51 2016
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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <4fceb7e5-a0b0-d4d2-8669-fad0df59095d@uclouvain.be> <C0212561-63DA-4578-9795-928B51F2A71B@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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On 11/7/2016 7:42 AM, Mirja Kühlewind wrote:
> Do you mean the MCP forwards the original SYN (and basically does nothing if the server supports MPTCP) or does the MCP terminate the TCP connection and start a new TCP connection with MP_CAPABLE towards the server?
>
> Mirja
If you're OK with needing to terminate a failed option exchange, then it
might be possible to use EDO in the SYN in its current form.

TCPM decided to prohibit that in the general case, but I could ask them
to allow that in very limited environments (but it could NEVER be
default on).

Note - the use cases I'm hearing appear to assume very strong knowledge
about the other end of the connection and the path. In that case, you
probably can skip most - if not all - of the 'negotiation' options and
just start using them during the SYN too. However, if you say "no, we
need to confirm", then you would not be able to use EDO inside the SYN.

Joe


From nobody Mon Nov  7 08:06:30 2016
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From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Offload MPTCP Proxy (was RE: potential MPTCP proxy charter item)
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Hello,

On 07/11/16 - 15:03:49, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> I'm not sure it is that clear we need to systematically include MP_CAPABLE option in the SYN to the ultimate server. I see some value there...but also some side effects. I'm reiterating what I already said in this thread: 
> 
> (+) I see "a big benefit" for some operators to offload the MTPCP proxies if the server is MPTCP-capable.

I think it is not only for "offloading" but also just to allow for native
MPTCP. When there is a choice between native MPTCP and proxied MPTCP, the
former should always be preferred. I guess we all agree on that.

> (-) I don’t see "a big benefit" for the client from a QoE perspective, because they already have the MPTCP experience with the network assistance (network aggregation, path resiliency). 

When MPTCP goes end-to-end, the routing is optimal because the TCP-subflows
don't have to go through a detour to reach the proxy. The path through the
proxy is always less or equally as good as the direct path.

>From a QoE perspective I see a benefit in that the native server has more
info on the traffic-characteristics it is sending to the client. So it can
optimize based on this. This info (coming from the server-side) is not
available to the proxy.

> (-) I don’t see "a big benefit" for the client if the MPTCP-capable server decides to use a given path to place data, while that path is subject to a data volume quota. This means that the client will be mono-path quickly if an MPTCP-capable server adopts some traffic distribution schemes.

This shows that we need signalling on an MPTCP-connection so that the client
can tell the server "don't send on this subflow now". We actually already have
this with the MP_PRIO-option, but something more sophisticated might be needed.

While a proxy might have access to the data-quota and can schedule traffic
based on this, data-quota is not the only variable that makes one want to
avoid cellular. If the device is a mobile device, battery-constraints come
into play as well.


Christoph


>  
> That said, I have no problem to leave this as a configurable parameter. A configuration knob can be supported to instruct the MCP about the behavior to follow. Also, a white list of servers can be provided to the MCP. 
> 
> This is exactly the kind of technical considerations for which we need a formal WG document so that we can record the WG decision.
> 
> Cheers,
> Med
> 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Olivier Bonaventure [mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be]
> > Envoyé : dimanche 6 novembre 2016 22:12
> > À : Mirja Kühlewind; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Alan Ford
> > Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org
> > Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
> > 
> > 
> > It's clear that the MCP should send the MP_CAPABLE option in the SYN
> > towards the destination server and fallback to TCP is this fails. Since
> > there are some middleboxes that continue to silently drop the MP_CAPABLE
> > option, the MCP should be able to maintain a list of destination servers
> > where it had to fallback to regular TCP (e.g. after n retransmissions of
> > the SYN with MP_CAPABLE as suggested in RFC6824) and no attempt to use
> > MPTCP for these destinations. This cache should be reset on a regular
> > basis to probe again the destination servers.
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


From nobody Mon Nov  7 08:08:34 2016
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From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 08:07:56 -0800
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Oh - a quick followup.

If you have an option that "poisons" the connection if not confirmed (as
would using long EDO inside the SYN), then you have to retry without
that option. That is *possible*, but there's another problem.

RFC793 defines options as optional. Making any option mandatory would
require updating RFC793. That sort of change is exactly why long EDO
(actually extending the option space, rather than declaring the
capability) is currently prohibited in EDO.

Joe


On 11/7/2016 7:56 AM, Joe Touch wrote:
>
> On 11/7/2016 7:42 AM, Mirja Kühlewind wrote:
>> Do you mean the MCP forwards the original SYN (and basically does nothing if the server supports MPTCP) or does the MCP terminate the TCP connection and start a new TCP connection with MP_CAPABLE towards the server?
>>
>> Mirja
> If you're OK with needing to terminate a failed option exchange, then it
> might be possible to use EDO in the SYN in its current form.
>
> TCPM decided to prohibit that in the general case, but I could ask them
> to allow that in very limited environments (but it could NEVER be
> default on).
>
> Note - the use cases I'm hearing appear to assume very strong knowledge
> about the other end of the connection and the path. In that case, you
> probably can skip most - if not all - of the 'negotiation' options and
> just start using them during the SYN too. However, if you say "no, we
> need to confirm", then you would not be able to use EDO inside the SYN.
>
> Joe


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hello,

On 07/11/16 - 08:56:07, Olivier Bonaventure wrote:
> > > On 6 Nov 2016, at 21:06, Olivier Bonaventure
> > > <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
> > > <mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>> wrote:
> > > 
> > > The implicit mode was suggested by network operators. The MCP resides
> > > on the path between the CPE and the destination server. The main
> > > benefit of the implicit mode is that the MCP does not need to perform
> > > any address translation. Given all the complications with NAT, this is
> > > a huge benefit, in particular in IPv6 deployments. In IPv4
> > > deployments, the CPE can use a single address and there is no need for
> > > a pool of IPv4 addresses on the MCP.
> > > 
> > > In implicit mode, the MCP needs to distinguish between an MP_CAPABLE
> > > generated by the endhost and an MP_CAPABLE added by the CPE.
> > 
> > Broad question - why?
> > 
> > If the answer is simply “to know when to terminate the MPTCP connection”
> > (i.e. if the end host does it you want it to run all the way to
> > destination, but if the CPE has done it you want to handle at the
> > proxy), then thinking out loud here, could the desired behaviour not be
> > achieved by deciding to proxy only based on the SYN/ACK (i.e. based on
> > the far end’s capabilities) and otherwise be transparently adding MPTCP
> > to /everything/? That way you get even greater MPTCP coverage whilst not
> > interfering with destinations which have already deployed it.
> 
> 
> The problem is more complex than this because the connecitivity on the CPE
> is not the same as connectivity on the endhost. Consider the following
> scenario :
> 
> laptop <-----------+
>                    |
> smartphone <----> cpe <-------> mcp <------> server
>     +              +
>  cellular1     cellular2
> 
> The MCP resides on the DSL path between the CPE and the server.
> 
> The laptop is connected over WiFi and the CPE converts the TCP connection
> onto an MPTCP connection to bond DSL and cellular2.
> 
> The smartphone is connected over wifi to the cpe which is connected over DSL
> to the server via the MCP. When the smartphone uses MPTCP, it wants to use
> WiFi and cellular1. It could start over WiFi and then moves and want to
> switch to cellular1. The MCP has no idea of cellular1 and cannot terminate
> an MPTCP connection created by the smartphone.

I'm not sure, why Alan's suggestion to only proxy based on the SYN/ACK
doesn't work here.

There are two scenarios here:

1. server supports MPTCP: Then, everything is fine. CPE and MCP will stay
   out of the business and native MPTCP will be done from smartphone to
   server.
2. server does not support MPTCP: In that case the MCP will announce its
   public IP to the smartphone and this one can then create an MPTCP-subflow
   via cellular1.


Christoph


From nobody Mon Nov  7 08:34:30 2016
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <4fceb7e5-a0b0-d4d2-8669-fad0df59095d@uclouvain.be> <C0212561-63DA-4578-9795-928B51F2A71B@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <c93d9d6b-f46b-2b11-da6b-a308159ef7c0@isi.edu> <00ba6ab8-8fbf-ab19-b996-b84b87ad5520@isi.edu>
To: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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More specifically - see section 4.2.2.5 of rfc1122.

Joe

> On Nov 7, 2016, at 8:07 AM, Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu> wrote:
>=20
> Oh - a quick followup.
>=20
> If you have an option that "poisons" the connection if not confirmed (as
> would using long EDO inside the SYN), then you have to retry without
> that option. That is *possible*, but there's another problem.
>=20
> RFC793 defines options as optional. Making any option mandatory would
> require updating RFC793. That sort of change is exactly why long EDO
> (actually extending the option space, rather than declaring the
> capability) is currently prohibited in EDO.
>=20
> Joe
>=20
>=20
>> On 11/7/2016 7:56 AM, Joe Touch wrote:
>>=20
>>> On 11/7/2016 7:42 AM, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind wrote:
>>> Do you mean the MCP forwards the original SYN (and basically does nothin=
g if the server supports MPTCP) or does the MCP terminate the TCP connection=
 and start a new TCP connection with MP_CAPABLE towards the server?
>>>=20
>>> Mirja
>> If you're OK with needing to terminate a failed option exchange, then it
>> might be possible to use EDO in the SYN in its current form.
>>=20
>> TCPM decided to prohibit that in the general case, but I could ask them
>> to allow that in very limited environments (but it could NEVER be
>> default on).
>>=20
>> Note - the use cases I'm hearing appear to assume very strong knowledge
>> about the other end of the connection and the path. In that case, you
>> probably can skip most - if not all - of the 'negotiation' options and
>> just start using them during the SYN too. However, if you say "no, we
>> need to confirm", then you would not be able to use EDO inside the SYN.
>>=20
>> Joe


From nobody Mon Nov  7 08:36:50 2016
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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <8bed05c5-9f6f-04aa-8aa8-690aa3ce30f4@uclouvain.be> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <e81c001b-ba6b-2990-9a62-09622e1339e1@uclouvain.be> <ACE6C987-A8AD-477B-986C-CFB4A438323F@gmail.com> <8074e8da-71ba-633d-dd67-6fc37adf19e5@uclouvain.be> <E9ECBC32-A8F1-4C9A-9D26-A3FF64C815FA@gmail.com> <3fb34255-bfdd-832e-4143-3872ed4b5d93@uclouvain.be> <7601A655-137D-4197-A2B7-4BB10ED0CB32@gmail.com> <d9f1f3b7-9a2c-e678-45ba-c5987f878254@uclouvain.be>
To: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
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Hi Olivier,

> On 7 Nov 2016, at 07:50, Olivier Bonaventure =
<Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> Why is it an /option/, however? When you are explicitly targeting a
>> proxy node, surely the proxy is just as capable of pulling the data =
out
>> of the payload here?
>>=20
>=20
> Because the addressing information that is used for the proxy is part =
of the control plane and not part of the bytestream. I think that it is =
very important from an architectural viewpoint to maintain a clean =
separation between the byte stream that is exchanged between the =
applications and all control information that should be placed inside =
options.
>=20
> We explore the possibility of adding information in the bytestream for =
MPTCP and eventually decided to place all control information in =
options. If you look at HTTP, proxy-related information is part of the =
HTTP headers and not part of the payload. This is the same type of =
problem.

And this appears to be where we fundamentally disagree. I don=E2=80=99t =
see this as part of the control plane, I see proxying (at least in =
explicit mode) as an application of MPTCP, and should be at the =
application layer. It seems too specific an application to be embedded =
in the protocol. This does not seem equivalent to NAT, since it is =
requiring additional signalling.

Similarly I don=E2=80=99t see it compares like-for-like with HTTP =
headers and payload; HTTP is an application-layer protocol.

Having said that, data can now be tunnelled in HTTP e.g. by using =
WebSockets. I see this as an application-layer negotiation: negotiate =
the escalation to WebSockets, then you have a bidirectional socket in =
operation. This is closer to the tunnelling you propose; however, I see =
this very much as a negotiation at the first few bytes of the payload, =
followed by the data.

Regards,
Alan


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Olivier,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 7 Nov 2016, at 07:50, =
Olivier Bonaventure &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" =
class=3D"">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Why is it =
an /option/, however? When you are explicitly targeting a<br =
class=3D"">proxy node, surely the proxy is just as capable of pulling =
the data out<br class=3D"">of the payload here?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Because the addressing =
information that is used for the proxy is part of the control plane and =
not part of the bytestream. I think that it is very important from an =
architectural viewpoint to maintain a clean separation between the byte =
stream that is exchanged between the applications and all control =
information that should be placed inside options.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">We explore the possibility of adding information in the =
bytestream for MPTCP and eventually decided to place all control =
information in options. If you look at HTTP, proxy-related information =
is part of the HTTP headers and not part of the payload. This is the =
same type of problem.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">And this appears to be where we =
fundamentally disagree. I don=E2=80=99t see this as part of the control =
plane, I see proxying (at least in explicit mode) as an <i =
class=3D"">application</i> of MPTCP, and should be at the application =
layer. It seems too specific an application to be embedded in the =
protocol. This does not seem equivalent to NAT, since it is requiring =
additional signalling.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Similarly I don=E2=80=99t see it compares like-for-like with =
HTTP headers and payload; HTTP is an application-layer =
protocol.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Having=
 said that, data can now be tunnelled in HTTP e.g. by using WebSockets. =
I see this as an application-layer negotiation: negotiate the escalation =
to WebSockets, then you have a bidirectional socket in operation. This =
is closer to the tunnelling you propose; however, I see this very much =
as a negotiation at the first few bytes of the payload, followed by the =
data.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Regards,</div><div class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_33553277-F6F7-4BF7-8A2D-4548A51AD4FE--


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Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 08:48:31 -0800
From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hello,

On 07/11/16 - 09:00:17, Olivier Bonaventure wrote:
> > > > [Med] Defining another channel to carry the signal "I want to be MPTCP-proxied" outside the MPTCP normal channel will import the same set of hindrances we had with MPTCP design for middlebloxes traversal. The use of MPTCP to convey the "I want to be MPTCP-proxied" leverages on base MPTCP to detect "unfriendly MPTCP" in-path nodes. That's a pragmatic engineering design.
> > > 
> > > The MP_CONVERT signal has multiple purposes. When signalled with a target IP address in explicit mode, it is a pure application-layer signal, and is separate from the MPTCP connection entering the MCP.
> > > 
> > > In implicit mode this is indeed at a slightly different layer, and yes, you are asking the network to do something. But it’s still not a necessary part of the MPTCP protocol to make this happen. This is similar to a transparent HTTP proxy, or to a NAT - neither requires any changes to HTTP or TCP/IP to work.
> > > 
> > > You could detect MPTCP SYNs and see if your signal is present. If you don’t want to be inspecting every MPTCP SYN in implicit mode, use an existing standard - I suggest RAO. Given this is a controlled environment, you shouldn’t have any deployment concerns here.
> > > 
> > > If RAO is not appropriate for some reason, I might be persuaded that a flag in the MP_CAPABLE that says “proxies should inspect this” could be added to the base protocol. However, the rest of the protocol - i.e. the MP_CONVERT signal - is application-layer and outside MPTCP.
> > > 
> > > Ultimately MPTCP Proxying is an application of MPTCP and should be defined as such.
> > 
> > I'm also late on this thread. But just want to reiterate what I already
> > mentioned before in July.
> > 
> > I also think that proxying between different transport-layer protocols is not
> > an MPTCP-specific operation and as such should not be tied to MPTCP.
> > Making it independent of MPTCP would be much better as it allows to proxy
> > across any kind of transport protocol. So, let's just put it (as already
> > suggested) in the payload, without linking it to MPTCP.
> 
> 
> From an architectural viewpoint, providing addressing information for a
> proxy is clearly outside the bytestream exchanged by the application. It is
> cleaner to place this control plane information inside options instead of
> messing up the bytestream and changing the first few bytes of each
> connection. I think that we should have a clean separation between the
> control plane and the data plane in MPTCP. We already use options to carry
> addressing information related to the endhosts (ADD_ADDR, REMOVE_ADDR), the
> addresses required by the proxy are the same type of information and they
> should also be exchanged as TCP options. Encoding them in the payload would
> likely create more problems in the long term.

Now I'm confused. I thought that the MCP-option already is in the SYN's payload.


Wrt to the layer-separation. I think that having a 0-RTT proxying protocol
in the payload, where the first few bytes of a bytestream indicate the
server's IP-address would be very beneficial. These few bytes would be
placed in the SYN, just like the MCP-option, but without the link to MPTCP.
This would address Med's concerns wrt to additional delay, not interfere
with TFO,...

This would allow for some interesting use-cases:

* I could do a SCTP-proxy where each stream goes to a different server
* I could do a Quic-proxy
* I could do a TCP-RACK proxy that allows me to use TCP-RACK as
  server-support is not there yet (besides Google)
* ...


Cheers,
Christoph


From nobody Mon Nov  7 22:38:01 2016
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "cpaasch@apple.com" <cpaasch@apple.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] Offload MPTCP Proxy (was RE: potential MPTCP proxy charter item)
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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 07:08:14 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Offload MPTCP Proxy (was RE: potential MPTCP proxy charter item)
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>, Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 07:31:21 +0000
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>, "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
Thread-Index: AQHSORUenemdljzUmEGiGID3gGUCC6DOuRdw
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 08:08:26 +0000
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <8bed05c5-9f6f-04aa-8aa8-690aa3ce30f4@uclouvain.be> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <e81c001b-ba6b-2990-9a62-09622e1339e1@uclouvain.be> <ACE6C987-A8AD-477B-986C-CFB4A438323F@gmail.com> <8074e8da-71ba-633d-dd67-6fc37adf19e5@uclouvain.be> <E9ECBC32-A8F1-4C9A-9D26-A3FF64C815FA@gmail.com> <3fb34255-bfdd-832e-4143-3872ed4b5d93@uclouvain.be> <7601A655-137D-4197-A2B7-4BB10ED0CB32@gmail.com> <d9f1f3b7-9a2c-e678-45ba-c5987f878254@uclouvain.be> <85EB3C4A-A04F-4259-85A0-BB48A7B46C7D@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
Thread-Index: AQHSOREZnemdljzUmEGiGID3gGUCC6DNppCAgAEtwDA=
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 10:07:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi Med,

Inline...


>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part =
de
>> Christoph Paasch
>> Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 7 novembre 2016 17:24
>> =C3=80 : Olivier Bonaventure
>> Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
>>=20
>> Hello,
>>=20
>> On 07/11/16 - 08:56:07, Olivier Bonaventure wrote:
>>>=20
>>> The problem is more complex than this because the connecitivity on =
the
>> CPE
>>> is not the same as connectivity on the endhost. Consider the =
following
>>> scenario :
>>>=20
>>> laptop <-----------+
>>>                   |
>>> smartphone <----> cpe <-------> mcp <------> server
>>>    +              +
>>> cellular1     cellular2
>>>=20
>>> The MCP resides on the DSL path between the CPE and the server.
>>>=20
>>> The laptop is connected over WiFi and the CPE converts the TCP
>> connection
>>> onto an MPTCP connection to bond DSL and cellular2.
>>>=20
>>> The smartphone is connected over wifi to the cpe which is connected =
over
>> DSL
>>> to the server via the MCP. When the smartphone uses MPTCP, it wants =
to
>> use
>>> WiFi and cellular1. It could start over WiFi and then moves and want =
to
>>> switch to cellular1. The MCP has no idea of cellular1 and cannot
>> terminate
>>> an MPTCP connection created by the smartphone.
>>=20
>> I'm not sure, why Alan's suggestion to only proxy based on the =
SYN/ACK
>> doesn't work here.
>>=20
>> There are two scenarios here:
>>=20
>> 1. server supports MPTCP: Then, everything is fine. CPE and MCP will =
stay
>>   out of the business and native MPTCP will be done from smartphone =
to
>>   server.
>=20
> [Med] Existing network-assisted MPCP documents already cover this =
case. Native MPTCP connections will be established by that smartphone =
without even being intercepted by an MCP. The MCP has not to inspect the =
SYN/ACK. The problem is more on the laptop side.=20

But inspecting the SYN/ACK would allow the MCP to provide Multipath =
capabilities when the smartphone is MPTCP capable but the server is not. =
However, that=E2=80=99s a side-effect...

>=20
> Let's consider a TCP connection from that laptop. This TCP connections =
is relayed to MPTCP via the fixed line, and the intercepted by the MCP. =
If the MCP withdraws itself because it receives an MP_CAPBLE in the =
SYN/ACK from the ultimate server, the secondary subflow (via cellular2) =
may not be established because only private IPv4 addresses may be =
assigned in that leg (e.g., dedicated APN is used). In this case, the =
withdrawal of the MCP will lead to more failures.=20

Sorry I don=E2=80=99t follow that scenario. If cellular2 tried to join, =
it would talk direct to the far end, and not to the MCP,  if the MCP was =
not in the path=E2=80=A6 Right? So what=E2=80=99s the problem?

If the MCP remained in the path, then what would be different for this =
scenario to make it work?

>=20
> This is exactly why I'm advocating for a configurable parameter.=20
>=20
>> 2. server does not support MPTCP: In that case the MCP will announce =
its
>>   public IP to the smartphone and this one can then create an MPTCP-
>> subflow
>>   via cellular1.

These two scenarios make sense to me (at the moment), I am confused as =
to why this would not work?

Regards,
Alan



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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi Med,

Inline...

> De : Alan Ford [mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com =
<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>]=20
> Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 7 novembre 2016 17:37
> =C3=80 : Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be =
<mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
> Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
> =20
> Hi Olivier,
> =20
> On 7 Nov 2016, at 07:50, Olivier Bonaventure =
<Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be =
<mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>> wrote:
> =20
>=20
> Why is it an /option/, however? When you are explicitly targeting a
> proxy node, surely the proxy is just as capable of pulling the data =
out
> of the payload here?
>=20
>=20
> Because the addressing information that is used for the proxy is part =
of the control plane and not part of the bytestream. I think that it is =
very important from an architectural viewpoint to maintain a clean =
separation between the byte stream that is exchanged between the =
applications and all control information that should be placed inside =
options.
>=20
> We explore the possibility of adding information in the bytestream for =
MPTCP and eventually decided to place all control information in =
options. If you look at HTTP, proxy-related information is part of the =
HTTP headers and not part of the payload. This is the same type of =
problem.
> =20
> And this appears to be where we fundamentally disagree. I don=E2=80=99t =
see this as part of the control plane, I see proxying (at least in =
explicit mode) as an application of MPTCP, and should be at the =
application layer.
> =20
> [Med] I still don=E2=80=99t understand this subtlety between =
=E2=80=9Capplication of MPTCP=E2=80=9D (you claim) and =E2=80=9CMPTCP-spec=
ific use case=E2=80=9D (we claim). If we extrapolate your argument, one =
can object that multi-pathing is an =E2=80=9Capplication of TCP=E2=80=9D =
(not even specific to TCP), and should not be defined as a TCP option. =
But the reality is that there is a TCP option for multi-patting.

This is a layering issue. MPTCP provides an end-to-end transport. =
Proxying solutions are also end-to-end protocols - one end encapsulates =
in a different transport (from TCP to MPTC), and the other end =
decapsulates (from MPTCP to TCP). It does not make sense (to me) to =
apply an end-to-end application (proxying) at the transport layer.

Network translation is different and relies on changing fields in the =
same transport, not changing to a different one (I am coming at this =
from the perspective that MPTCP, although an extension to TCP, provides =
sufficiently different functionality that it it a different transport =
for the purposes of this discussion).

> It seems too specific an application to be embedded in the protocol. =
This does not seem equivalent to NAT, since it is requiring additional =
signalling.
> =20
> [Med] FWIW, instructing NAT state with in-band signaling information =
is specified by the IETF and widely deployed:
> =C2=B7         https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6052 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6052>
> =C2=B7         https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6146 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6146>
> =C2=B7         https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6877 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6877> =20
> =20

As far as I can see, none of those involve changes at the transport =
layer.

Regards,
Alan


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div>Hi Med,</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Inline...</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Alan Ford [<a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>lundi 7 novembre 2016 =
17:37<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">=C3=80&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>BOUCADAIR Mohamed =
IMT/OLN;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Objet&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [multipathtcp] =
potential MPTCP proxy charter item<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi Olivier,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 7 =
Nov 2016, at 07:50, Olivier Bonaventure &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">Why is it an =
/option/, however? When you are explicitly targeting a<br class=3D"">proxy=
 node, surely the proxy is just as capable of pulling the data out<br =
class=3D"">of the payload here?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></blockquote><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Because the addressing =
information that is used for the proxy is part of the control plane and =
not part of the bytestream. I think that it is very important from an =
architectural viewpoint to maintain a clean separation between the byte =
stream that is exchanged between the applications and all control =
information that should be placed inside options.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">We explore the possibility of adding information in the =
bytestream for MPTCP and eventually decided to place all control =
information in options. If you look at HTTP, proxy-related information =
is part of the HTTP headers and not part of the payload. This is the =
same type of problem.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">And this appears to be where we fundamentally =
disagree. I don=E2=80=99t see this as part of the control plane, I see =
proxying (at least in explicit mode) as an<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i =
class=3D"">application</i><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>of MPTCP, and should be at =
the application layer.<span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] I still don=E2=80=99t =
understand this subtlety between =E2=80=9Capplication of MPTCP=E2=80=9D =
(you claim) and =E2=80=9CMPTCP-specific use case=E2=80=9D (we claim). If =
we extrapolate your argument, one can object that multi-pathing is an =
=E2=80=9Capplication of TCP=E2=80=9D (not even specific to TCP), and =
should not be defined as a TCP option. But the reality is that there is =
a TCP option for =
multi-patting.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>This is a layering issue. MPTCP provides an =
end-to-end transport. Proxying solutions are also end-to-end protocols - =
one end encapsulates in a different transport (from TCP to MPTC), and =
the other end decapsulates (from MPTCP to TCP). It does not make sense =
(to me) to apply an end-to-end application (proxying) at the transport =
layer.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Network translation is =
different and relies on changing fields in the <i =
class=3D"">same</i>&nbsp;transport, not changing to a different one (I =
am coming at this from the perspective that MPTCP, although an extension =
to TCP, provides sufficiently different functionality that it it a =
different transport for the purposes of this discussion).</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">It seems too specific an application to be =
embedded in the protocol. This does not seem eq</span>uivalent to NAT, =
since it is requiring additional signalling.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] FWIW, instructing NAT state with =
in-band signaling information is specified by the IETF and widely =
deployed:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6052" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6052</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-indent: -18pt;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6146" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6146</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-indent: -18pt;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6877" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6877</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br class=3D""></div><div>As far as I can see, none of those involve =
changes at the transport layer.</div></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Regards,</div><div class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 14:31:16 +0000
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi, Med,

I cannot parse the note below. Can you please clarify? Or maybe it is
more useful to address my specific issue with SYN data as option, in
response to your other email today.

Joe


On 11/7/2016 10:37 PM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> Hi Joe, 
>
> It is encouraging to consider using EDO, but the current approach we adopted for the MP_CONVERT option have the same failure risk as for introducing MPTCP at the scale of the Internet. 
>
> Using EDO and/or defining MP_CONVERT as a TCP option exacerbates the failure vectors. Below a table that summarizes the failures that will be experienced for the MP_CONVERT case as a function if the design approach: 
>
>    +------------------+-----------+-----------+-----------+------------+
>    |                  | MP_CONVERT| MP_CONVERT| MP_CONVERT| MP_CONVERT |
>    |                  |   MPTCP   |    TCP    |   MPTCP   | TCP Option |
>    |                  |   Option  |   Option  |  Option + |   + EDO    |
>    |                  |           |           |    EDO    |            |
>    +------------------+-----------+-----------+-----------+------------+
>    | MPTCP-unfriendly |    FAIL   |    FAIL   |    FAIL   |    FAIL    |
>    |             path |           |           |           |            |
>    +------------------+-----------+-----------+-----------+------------+
>    |   EDO-unfriendly |     NA    |     NA    |    FAIL   |    FAIL    |
>    |             path |           |           |           |            |
>    +------------------+-----------+-----------+-----------+------------+
>    | "Unknown TCP opt |     NA    |    FAIL   |     NA    |    FAIL    |
>    |  ion"-unfriendly |           |           |           |            |
>    |             path |           |           |           |            |
>    +------------------+-----------+-----------+-----------+------------+
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Joe
>> Touch
>> Envoyé : lundi 7 novembre 2016 16:56
>> À : Mirja Kühlewind; Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
>> Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/7/2016 7:42 AM, Mirja Kühlewind wrote:
>>> Do you mean the MCP forwards the original SYN (and basically does
>> nothing if the server supports MPTCP) or does the MCP terminate the TCP
>> connection and start a new TCP connection with MP_CAPABLE towards the
>> server?
>>> Mirja
>> If you're OK with needing to terminate a failed option exchange, then it
>> might be possible to use EDO in the SYN in its current form.
>>
>> TCPM decided to prohibit that in the general case, but I could ask them
>> to allow that in very limited environments (but it could NEVER be
>> default on).
>>
>> Note - the use cases I'm hearing appear to assume very strong knowledge
>> about the other end of the connection and the path. In that case, you
>> probably can skip most - if not all - of the 'negotiation' options and
>> just start using them during the SYN too. However, if you say "no, we
>> need to confirm", then you would not be able to use EDO inside the SYN.
>>
>> Joe
>>
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From nobody Tue Nov  8 06:35:24 2016
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <4fceb7e5-a0b0-d4d2-8669-fad0df59095d@uclouvain.be> <C0212561-63DA-4578-9795-928B51F2A71B@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <c93d9d6b-f46b-2b11-da6b-a308159ef7c0@isi.edu> <00ba6ab8-8fbf-ab19-b996-b84b87ad5520@isi.edu> <F9AAAF6C-DF82-412E-9C88-9043CC1EC3AA@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE088@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 06:35:07 -0800
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi, Med,


On 11/8/2016 2:07 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> Joe,
>
> I'm inserting the full text of that section here: 
>
> ====
>          4.2.2.5  TCP Options: RFC-793 Section 3.1
>
>             A TCP MUST be able to receive a TCP option in any segment.
>             A TCP MUST ignore without error any TCP option it does not
>             implement, assuming that the option has a length field (all
>             TCP options defined in the future will have length fields).
>             TCP MUST be prepared to handle an illegal option length
>             (e.g., zero) without crashing; a suggested procedure is to
>             reset the connection and log the reason.
> ====
>
>    The proposed design for the MP_CONVERT option does not violate that
>    text, IMO.  I'm listing here the design approaches that we considered
>    so far:
>
>       (1) no change to MP_CAPABLE: MPTCP proxies are prepared by design
>       to look at the payload of SYN to retrieve MP_CONVERT options.
>
>       *  MP_CONVERT options are inserted in the payload of a SYN that
>          includes MP_CAPABLE.
>       *  If the remote peer does not support MPTCP, the connection will
>          be reverted to TCP according to the base MPTCP specification.
...
Please explain. If there is option information in the SYN data, then a
legacy peer is allowed to keep that data (and ACK it) in the SYN ACK.

So now it has option info that it interprets as data. You can't undo
that unless you RST the connection, but that violates the cited text in
RFC1122 above, i.e., you have created an option you cannot ignore by
simply not ACKing it.


>      (2) change MP_CAPABLE to explicitly indicate that options are
>       present in the SYN payload:
>
>       *  A flag in the MP_CAPABLE will be set to indicate to a remote
>          peer that MP_CONVERT options are included in the payload.
>       *  If the remote peer does not support MPTCP, the connection will
>          be reverted to TCP as per base MPTCP specification.
...
This has exactly the same problem.

It's not about "MUST ignore" - it's about "without error". Your approach
creates an error in the TCP connection.

Joe


From nobody Tue Nov  8 06:47:12 2016
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
Thread-Index: AQHSOcywnemdljzUmEGiGID3gGUCC6DPJurQ
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 14:47:05 +0000
Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE2DE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <4fceb7e5-a0b0-d4d2-8669-fad0df59095d@uclouvain.be> <C0212561-63DA-4578-9795-928B51F2A71B@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <c93d9d6b-f46b-2b11-da6b-a308159ef7c0@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DADEAE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <e2733084-d91a-a4b3-0c2a-9643fc456e1b@isi.edu>
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From nobody Tue Nov  8 06:51:31 2016
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <4fceb7e5-a0b0-d4d2-8669-fad0df59095d@uclouvain.be> <C0212561-63DA-4578-9795-928B51F2A71B@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <c93d9d6b-f46b-2b11-da6b-a308159ef7c0@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DADEAE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <e2733084-d91a-a4b3-0c2a-9643fc456e1b@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE2DE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 06:51:06 -0800
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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On 11/8/2016 6:47 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> Re-,
>  
> The point Joe, is that if we define the MP_CONVERT option as a TCP option or if we require EDO to be present to explicitly indicate the data offset, we are adding new failure vectors compared with the other design that leverages on MP_CAPABLE to achieve the same result.
>
> The table cites the failure cases. 
I don't understand "failure case" - are you talking about connections
that the originator needs to abort?

That's not a "failure case" of a connection; that's a failure of the
design of the option.

Joe



From nobody Tue Nov  8 07:06:34 2016
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 15:06:28 +0000
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <4fceb7e5-a0b0-d4d2-8669-fad0df59095d@uclouvain.be> <C0212561-63DA-4578-9795-928B51F2A71B@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <c93d9d6b-f46b-2b11-da6b-a308159ef7c0@isi.edu> <00ba6ab8-8fbf-ab19-b996-b84b87ad5520@isi.edu> <F9AAAF6C-DF82-412E-9C88-9043CC1EC3AA@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE088@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <ca2610f2-4f1b-5123-1e6e-697dfbe7cdc7@isi.edu>
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 15:10:18 +0000
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <4fceb7e5-a0b0-d4d2-8669-fad0df59095d@uclouvain.be> <C0212561-63DA-4578-9795-928B51F2A71B@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <c93d9d6b-f46b-2b11-da6b-a308159ef7c0@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DADEAE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <e2733084-d91a-a4b3-0c2a-9643fc456e1b@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE2DE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <eb573c69-835b-521b-abae-701cfd0f5317@isi.edu>
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From nobody Tue Nov  8 07:17:17 2016
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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>, Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <87270f12-59ee-3caf-eeef-685195b35dcd@uclouvain.be> <A5256E6E-E2BA-4763-AEF9-3CC50EB432A2@gmail.com>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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+1 because that is also the only solution that really supports native MPTCP 
deployment (trading off a little additional delay).

On 07.11.2016 07:22, Alan Ford wrote:
>
> If the answer is simply “to know when to terminate the MPTCP connection”
> (i.e. if the end host does it you want it to run all the way to destination,
> but if the CPE has done it you want to handle at the proxy), then thinking
> out loud here, could the desired behaviour not be achieved by deciding to
> proxy only based on the SYN/ACK (i.e. based on the far end’s capabilities)
> and otherwise be transparently adding MPTCP to /everything/? That way you get
> even greater MPTCP coverage whilst not interfering with destinations which
> have already deployed it.


From nobody Tue Nov  8 07:22:54 2016
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To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>, Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
References: <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAC5DE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <EBFA61A5-4A9E-4B41-BDC1-4F9056241D70@gmail.com> <20161104181615.GP40488@Chimay.local> <010bba5d-dea0-8268-897e-ff7399abd41b@uclouvain.be> <20161107164831.GK3546@Chimay.local>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Message-ID: <0871b553-e9cc-c636-35dd-4fc757c0d20a@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 16:13:42 +0100
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi all, hi Olivier,

see below.

On 07.11.2016 17:48, Christoph Paasch wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On 07/11/16 - 09:00:17, Olivier Bonaventure wrote:
[snip]
>>
>> From an architectural viewpoint, providing addressing information for a
>> proxy is clearly outside the bytestream exchanged by the application. It is
>> cleaner to place this control plane information inside options instead of
>> messing up the bytestream and changing the first few bytes of each
>> connection. I think that we should have a clean separation between the
>> control plane and the data plane in MPTCP. We already use options to carry
>> addressing information related to the endhosts (ADD_ADDR, REMOVE_ADDR), the
>> addresses required by the proxy are the same type of information and they
>> should also be exchanged as TCP options. Encoding them in the payload would
>> likely create more problems in the long term.

 From an architectural point of view it's not part of the application 
bytestream (as you call it; which is the data the application wants to get 
from one point to the other) but also not part of the end-to-end transport 
protocol (which makes sure that these data are delivered in some specified 
way). It should probably be part of the network layer or somewhere in 
between, however, that layer doesn't really exists (see PLUS problem statement).

If you put this information in the (MP)TCP payload in the SYN as proposed, 
you should see this as a shim layer and not part of the bytestream.

>
> Now I'm confused. I thought that the MCP-option already is in the SYN's payload.
>
>
> Wrt to the layer-separation. I think that having a 0-RTT proxying protocol
> in the payload, where the first few bytes of a bytestream indicate the
> server's IP-address would be very beneficial. These few bytes would be
> placed in the SYN, just like the MCP-option, but without the link to MPTCP.
> This would address Med's concerns wrt to additional delay, not interfere
> with TFO,...
>
> This would allow for some interesting use-cases:
>
> * I could do a SCTP-proxy where each stream goes to a different server
> * I could do a Quic-proxy
> * I could do a TCP-RACK proxy that allows me to use TCP-RACK as
>   server-support is not there yet (besides Google)
> * ...

Yes, given this is not a specific problem to MPTCP tunnels, that's why we 
have the BANANA BoF!

Mirja


>
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
>


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Alan Ford" <alan.ford@gmail.com>, "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
Thread-Index: AQHSOdMunemdljzUmEGiGID3gGUCC6DPM/3A
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 15:32:50 +0000
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <87270f12-59ee-3caf-eeef-685195b35dcd@uclouvain.be> <A5256E6E-E2BA-4763-AEF9-3CC50EB432A2@gmail.com> <7f9dd7ab-2e24-0319-b62f-fc4fa68b9568@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Mirja,

I agree that we need to encourage native MPTCP connections.=20

The problem is that if the MCP blindly withdraws itself based on the server=
 capabilities, MPTCP connections may not be established in some cases, e.g.=
, private IPv4 addresses are assigned for some secondary access networks.=20

That would be unfortunate.=20

BTW, relying on the SYN/ACK is not the **only** solution. One can consider =
configuring a whitelist to the proxy.=20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de
> Mirja K=FChlewind
> Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 8 novembre 2016 16:17
> =C0=A0: Alan Ford; Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
> Cc=A0: multipathtcp@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
>=20
> +1 because that is also the only solution that really supports native
> MPTCP
> deployment (trading off a little additional delay).
>=20
> On 07.11.2016 07:22, Alan Ford wrote:
> >
> > If the answer is simply "to know when to terminate the MPTCP connection=
"
> > (i.e. if the end host does it you want it to run all the way to
> destination,
> > but if the CPE has done it you want to handle at the proxy), then
> thinking
> > out loud here, could the desired behaviour not be achieved by deciding
> to
> > proxy only based on the SYN/ACK (i.e. based on the far end's
> capabilities)
> > and otherwise be transparently adding MPTCP to /everything/? That way
> you get
> > even greater MPTCP coverage whilst not interfering with destinations
> which
> > have already deployed it.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
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Med,

> On 8 Nov 2016, at 15:32, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>=20
> The problem is that if the MCP blindly withdraws itself based on the =
server capabilities, MPTCP connections may not be established in some =
cases, e.g., private IPv4 addresses are assigned for some secondary =
access networks.=20

Could you walk me through this scenario? Despite Olivier=E2=80=99s and =
your diagrams I=E2=80=99m not following how this does not work. If the =
far end supports MPTCP, the secondary interface gets to the far end by =
its own route and joins the MPTCP connection. If the far end does not, =
then the MCP will have inserted its address in the MPTCP signalling, so =
the secondary interface could route to it directly too.

So in what scenario does this not work?

Regards,
Alan


From nobody Tue Nov  8 08:44:30 2016
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <4fceb7e5-a0b0-d4d2-8669-fad0df59095d@uclouvain.be> <C0212561-63DA-4578-9795-928B51F2A71B@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <c93d9d6b-f46b-2b11-da6b-a308159ef7c0@isi.edu> <00ba6ab8-8fbf-ab19-b996-b84b87ad5520@isi.edu> <F9AAAF6C-DF82-412E-9C88-9043CC1EC3AA@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE088@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <ca2610f2-4f1b-5123-1e6e-697dfbe7cdc7@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE31D@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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On 11/8/2016 7:06 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>> Please explain. If there is option information in the SYN data, then a
>> > legacy peer is allowed to keep that data (and ACK it) in the SYN ACK.
>> > 
>> > So now it has option info that it interprets as data.
> [Med] But a legacy node is not allowed to pass it to the application till the 3WHS is completed. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc793#section-3.4 says the following:
Agreed.

So now you have an option that violates 1122 because the receiver is
ignoring an option it doesn't understand but it would be an error to
continue with that connection.

Even if you assume that's true, you have another problem.

You've just opened a connection using a pair of ports. You sent a RST,
but RSTs are not reliable. So you can't reuse that port pair until
TIME-WAIT expires.

If you declare it "off" for an endpoint, do you ever check again?

Also, you can never use this option with TFO (which *would* try to pass
the data to the app) . I think you mentioned that, but then it's clearly
not generic.

Joe


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/8/2016 7:06 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE31D@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
        <pre wrap="">Please explain. If there is option information in the SYN data, then a
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt; </span>legacy peer is allowed to keep that data (and ACK it) in the SYN ACK.
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt; </span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt; </span>So now it has option info that it interprets as data.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">[Med] But a legacy node is not allowed to pass it to the application till the 3WHS is completed. <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc793#section-3.4">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc793#section-3.4</a> says the following:</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Agreed.<br>
    <br>
    So now you have an option that violates 1122 because the receiver is
    ignoring an option it doesn't understand but it would be an error to
    continue with that connection.<br>
    <br>
    Even if you assume that's true, you have another problem.<br>
    <br>
    You've just opened a connection using a pair of ports. You sent a
    RST, but RSTs are not reliable. So you can't reuse that port pair
    until TIME-WAIT expires.<br>
    <br>
    If you declare it "off" for an endpoint, do you ever check again?<br>
    <br>
    Also, you can never use this option with TFO (which *would* try to
    pass the data to the app) . I think you mentioned that, but then
    it's clearly not generic.<br>
    <br>
    Joe<br>
    <br>
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <87270f12-59ee-3caf-eeef-685195b35dcd@uclouvain.be> <A5256E6E-E2BA-4763-AEF9-3CC50EB432A2@gmail.com> <7f9dd7ab-2e24-0319-b62f-fc4fa68b9568@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE3A6@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A95CD4E7-6A3B-4622-A818-03B10AD75D4D@gmail.com>
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 07:06:06 +0000
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <4fceb7e5-a0b0-d4d2-8669-fad0df59095d@uclouvain.be> <C0212561-63DA-4578-9795-928B51F2A71B@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <c93d9d6b-f46b-2b11-da6b-a308159ef7c0@isi.edu> <00ba6ab8-8fbf-ab19-b996-b84b87ad5520@isi.edu> <F9AAAF6C-DF82-412E-9C88-9043CC1EC3AA@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE088@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <ca2610f2-4f1b-5123-1e6e-697dfbe7cdc7@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE31D@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <fe18560f-098e-6953-55b9-f9d147b87c48@isi.edu>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE743@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 08:04:09 +0000
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <87270f12-59ee-3caf-eeef-685195b35dcd@uclouvain.be> <A5256E6E-E2BA-4763-AEF9-3CC50EB432A2@gmail.com> <7f9dd7ab-2e24-0319-b62f-fc4fa68b9568@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE3A6@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A95CD4E7-6A3B-4622-A818-03B10AD75D4D@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE743@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi Med,

Thanks for providing some scenarios. Comments inline=E2=80=A6

> On 9 Nov 2016, at 06:41, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>=20
> Hi Alan,=20
>=20
> Below some examples to illustrate the problem I'm talking about.=20
>=20
> (1) Private IPv4 addresses or RFC6598 Shared Address space
>=20
> Let's consider this configuration (reusing the same topology in this =
thread):=20
>=20
> laptop <-----------+
>                   | (Public IPv4@)
> smartphone <----> cpe <----FIXED------> mcp <------> server
>     +             +=20
>  cellular1     cellular2
>                (Private IPv4)
>=20
> In this example, the multipath CPEs gets a public IPv4 address from =
the fixed network and a private IPv4 address (or an address from RFC6598 =
range) from the mobile network (cellular2).
>=20
> Consider the server is MPTCP-capable.=20
>=20
> The first subflow can be placed using the fixed line. Fine.
> The MCP will remove itself from the connection because the server is =
MPTCP-capable. Cool!
> The second subflow that will use cellaulr2 cannot be established =
because of a basic forwarding problem: packets sourced with private IPv4 =
addresses cannot be forwarded over the public Internet.=20

Presumably cellular2 goes through a NAT in order to talk to anything in =
the public Internet. So it can be addressed to the server, and work like =
any other MPTCP subflow behind a NAT would work today.

What am I missing? Why is this any different to today with a MPTCP end =
host with private IP addresses?

The smartphone does not have knowledge of cellular2, presumably=E2=80=A6 =
So the CPE would have to do something funky with the traffic to split it =
over fixed and cellular2 - but it could still establish the subflow =
towards the server on cellular2, without any knowledge of the smartphone =
or the network.

>=20
> (2) IPv6-only access network
>=20
> Lets' consider this configuration:=20
>=20
> laptop <-----------+
>                   | (Public IPv4@             =20
> smartphone <----> cpe <----FIXED------> mcp <------> server
>     +              +                                IPv4-only
>  cellular1     cellular2
>                (IPv6-only prefix)
>=20
> In this example, the multipath CPEs gets a public IPv4 address from =
the fixed network and an IPv6 prefix from the mobile network =
(cellular2).=20
>=20
> Consider the server is MPTCP-capable, but IPv4-only.=20
>=20
> The first subflow can be placed using the fixed line. Fine.
> The MCP will remove itself from the connection because the server is =
MPTCP-capable. Cool!
> The second subflow that will use cellaulr2 cannot be added because the =
remote server does not support IPv6.
>=20

So in this case, if the MCP was on-path, it could be dual-stack and =
could add its IPv6 address to the subflows.

If the MCP knew the connection was being proxied, would this help? Since =
as you=E2=80=99ve already defined, the MCP <=E2=80=94> server path would =
then be TCP. If the MCP stayed on-path, you could do multi path towards =
the MCP but then lose MPTCP capabilities to the server.

Or alternatively, the MCP could always stay on-path but only add IPv6 =
addresses if it somehow had knowledge that was required based on the =
source or destination address. Does it need to know by a flag? Would =
there actually be any harm by maintaining itself on the path anyway? =
It=E2=80=99s not like it=E2=80=99s doing anything other than packet =
forwarding on the initial subflow, and just adds its IPv6 addresses to =
the initial exchanges in case it would be useful - and if it receives =
traffic to the relevant address/port, it can start forwarding it to the =
far end too (possibly over a second IPv4 subflow). Again, no need or any =
explicit signalling to make this work.

> I can share other examples where problems arise when the proxy is =
blindly removed from the connection based on the presence of MP_CAPABLE =
in SYN/ACK.=20

If it would help to clarify, please do! Since I don=E2=80=99t see a =
problem in (1), and whilst I can see a potential problem in (2) above, I =
am not sure how you are resolving it. Any other examples very welcome!

Best regards,
Alan





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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <4fceb7e5-a0b0-d4d2-8669-fad0df59095d@uclouvain.be> <C0212561-63DA-4578-9795-928B51F2A71B@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <c93d9d6b-f46b-2b11-da6b-a308159ef7c0@isi.edu> <00ba6ab8-8fbf-ab19-b996-b84b87ad5520@isi.edu> <F9AAAF6C-DF82-412E-9C88-9043CC1EC3AA@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE088@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <ca2610f2-4f1b-5123-1e6e-697dfbe7cdc7@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE31D@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <fe1856! 0f-098e-6953-55b9-f9d147b87c48@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE767@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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>=20
> You've just opened a connection using a pair of ports. You sent a RST, but=
 RSTs are not reliable. So you can't reuse that port pair until TIME-WAIT ex=
pires.
>=20
> [Med] This a fair observation. Another source port number will be used for=
 the fallback connection (if any). =20
>=20
That is no longer TCP.
Remember that it is not TCP that picks these ports. The OS does when the use=
r didn't but the user can.

Joe=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><div style=3D"border:non=
e;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<br>
You've just opened a connection using a pair of ports. You sent a RST, but R=
STs are not reliable. So you can't reuse that port pair until TIME-WAIT expi=
res.<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
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ed] This a fair observation. Another source port number will be used for the=
 fallback connection (if any). &nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p>=
</div></div></blockquote>That is no longer TCP.<blockquote type=3D"cite"><di=
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	{mso-list-id:1232426167;
	mso-list-type:hybrid;
	mso-list-template-ids:1058299150 513814318 67895299 67895301 678952=
97 67895299 67895301 67895297 67895299 67895301;}
@list l1:level1
	{mso-level-start-at:2;
	mso-level-number-format:bullet;
	mso-level-text:=EF=82=B7;
	mso-level-tab-stop:none;
	mso-level-number-position:left;
	text-indent:-18.0pt;
	font-family:Symbol;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
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@list l1:level2
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@list l1:level3
	{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
	mso-level-text:=EF=82=A7;
	mso-level-tab-stop:none;
	mso-level-number-position:left;
	text-indent:-18.0pt;
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@list l1:level4
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	mso-level-text:=EF=82=B7;
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	mso-level-number-position:left;
	text-indent:-18.0pt;
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@list l1:level5
	{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
	mso-level-text:o;
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	mso-level-number-position:left;
	text-indent:-18.0pt;
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@list l1:level6
	{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
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	text-indent:-18.0pt;
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@list l1:level7
	{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
	mso-level-text:=EF=82=B7;
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	text-indent:-18.0pt;
	font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level8
	{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
	mso-level-text:o;
	mso-level-tab-stop:none;
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	text-indent:-18.0pt;
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@list l1:level9
	{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
	mso-level-text:=EF=82=A7;
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ol
	{margin-bottom:0cm;}
ul
	{margin-bottom:0cm;}
--></style><div>Remember that it is not TCP that picks these ports. The OS d=
oes when the user didn't but the user can.</div><div><br></div><div>Joe</div=
></body></html>=

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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 09:45:20 +0000
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <87270f12-59ee-3caf-eeef-685195b35dcd@uclouvain.be> <A5256E6E-E2BA-4763-AEF9-3CC50EB432A2@gmail.com> <7f9dd7ab-2e24-0319-b62f-fc4fa68b9568@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE3A6@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A95CD4E7-6A3B-4622-A818-03B10AD75D4D@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE743@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <06A031EE-5F50-4A0F-BBEC-9F2766C543FF@gmail.com>
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 10:07:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From nobody Wed Nov  9 02:52:55 2016
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To: philip.eardley@bt.com, multipathtcp@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/multipathtcp/wGw06XZl344aIWz9P9XznlcLXv8>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
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What do you mean by "including a set of socket operations"? I'm not sure if 
RFC6897 define any operations. I'm actually not sure what socket operations 
are...

Mirja


On 09.11.2016 11:21, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
> Following the earlier discussion, there is support to add a charter item as
> follows:
>
> <<RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for MPTCP-aware
> applications, including a set of socket operations. Now there is more
> experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will re-visit this work, and
> consider adding more advanced socket operations. The document will be
> Informational.>>
>
> If you disagree with this being added, or suggest some mod to this item,
> please say.
>
> Thanks
>
> Phil & Yoshi
>
>
>
> *From:*cpaasch@apple.com [mailto:cpaasch@apple.com]
> *Sent:* 31 July 2016 20:37
> *To:* Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com>
> *Cc:* MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [multipathtcp] potential new work item on MPTCP API
>
>
>
>
>
>     On Jul 26, 2016, at 7:35 AM, philip.eardley@bt.com
>     <mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>     Christoph,
>
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#section-5.3 is “Sockets Interface
>     Extensions by the Basic MPTCP API”
>
>     (also https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#appendix-A “Appendix A.
>     Requirements on a Future Advanced MPTCP API”)
>
>
>
> Ok, I see. Fair enough. Extension to RFC6897 seems fine to me then.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Christoph
>
>
>
>     phil
>
>
>
>     *From:* cpaasch@apple.com <mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>
>     [mailto:cpaasch@apple.com]
>     *Sent:* 22 July 2016 09:48
>     *To:* Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com
>     <mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>>
>     *Cc:* MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org
>     <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [multipathtcp] potential new work item on MPTCP API
>
>
>
>     Hello,
>
>
>
>         On Jul 21, 2016, at 5:43 PM, philip.eardley@bt.com
>         <mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com> wrote:
>
>         Yesterday Olivier presented about his & Benjamin’s recent work on
>         MPTCP socket api. We didn’t have much discussion whether to add this
>         to the charter. One comment was that any work should build on
>         /reference RFC6897.
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-mptcp-4.pdf
>
>         Please can you comment whether you see this as a useful work item, or
>         you think it shouldn’t be worked on, or how it should be adapted to
>         something you think the WG should work on.
>
>
>
>     yes, I think it is a very useful work item and am willing to contribute
>     to this work.
>
>
>
>     I'm not sure whether this can be seen as an update to 6897. I'm under the
>     impression that 6897 takes a different approach, giving users a
>     high-level overview of how using MPTCP might look like to an application
>     that is talking to a TCP-socket (which happens to end up using MPTCP).
>
>
>
>     Olivier's work seems to rather make MPTCP entirely explicit to the
>     application. So, I think both works take a different approach.
>
>
>
>
>         To help prompt the discussion, here’s a very first version of some
>         possible charter text
>
>         RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for
>         MPTCP-aware applications, including a set of socket operations. Now
>         there is more experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will
>         re-visit this work, and consider adding more advanced socket operations.
>
>
>
>         RFC6897 was Informational – would this new Milestone be Informational
>         or Experimental?
>
>
>
>     I think it should be Informational.
>
>
>
>
>
>     Christoph
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         Thanks
>
>         phil
>
>
>
>         Philip Eardley
>
>         Research and Innovation
>
>         This email contains BT information, which may be privileged or
>         confidential. It's meant only for the individual(s) or entity named
>         above. If you're not the intended recipient, note that disclosing,
>         copying, distributing or using this information is prohibited. If
>         you've received this email in error, please let me know immediately
>         on the email address above. Thank you.
>         We monitor our email system, and may record your emails.
>
>         British Telecommunications plc
>         Registered office: 81 Newgate Street London EC1A 7AJ
>         Registered in England no: 1800000
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         multipathtcp mailing list
>         multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
>


From nobody Wed Nov  9 05:35:14 2016
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Subject: [multipathtcp] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC6181 (4857)
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The following errata report has been submitted for RFC6181,
"Threat Analysis for TCP Extensions for Multipath Operation with Multiple Addresses".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=6181&eid=4857

--------------------------------------
Type: Editorial
Reported by: Tobias Seel <tobias.seel@gmail.com>

Section: 5

Original Text
-------------
The
   attacker can do that by pretending that the path between IPA and IPT
   is congested but that the path between IPS and IPT is not.

Corrected Text
--------------
The
   attacker can do that by pretending that the path between IPA and IPS
   is congested but that the path between IPS and IPT is not.

Notes
-----
The attacker wants to pretend that the path between IPA and the Source is congested. There is no relevant path between IPA and IPT which has to be congested.

Instructions:
-------------
This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party  
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 

--------------------------------------
RFC6181 (draft-ietf-mptcp-threat-08)
--------------------------------------
Title               : Threat Analysis for TCP Extensions for Multipath Operation with Multiple Addresses
Publication Date    : March 2011
Author(s)           : M. Bagnulo
Category            : INFORMATIONAL
Source              : Multipath TCP
Area                : Transport
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG


From nobody Wed Nov  9 05:38:35 2016
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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
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--Apple-Mail=_1903CACB-986A-40BE-B3FE-27FD69FDB29B
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	charset=utf-8

That reads as if it is adding more advanced APIs over and above what=E2=80=
=99s in 6897. Given a lot of this work has already been covered in 6897, =
I think it would be useful to determine what exactly it is that is =
desired in addition. Is it an update to 6897 based on operational =
experience? I feel it should also be clear that this builds upon 6897 =
and not re-invent the wheel.

Regards,
Alan

> On 9 Nov 2016, at 10:21, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
>=20
> Following the earlier discussion, there is support to add a charter =
item as follows:
> <<RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for =
MPTCP-aware applications, including a set of socket operations. Now =
there is more experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will =
re-visit this work, and consider adding more advanced socket operations. =
The document will be Informational.>>
> If you disagree with this being added, or suggest some mod to this =
item, please say.
> Thanks
> Phil & Yoshi
> =20
> From: cpaasch@apple.com <mailto:cpaasch@apple.com> =
[mailto:cpaasch@apple.com <mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>]=20
> Sent: 31 July 2016 20:37
> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com =
<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>>
> Cc: MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential new work item on MPTCP API
> =20
> =20
> On Jul 26, 2016, at 7:35 AM, philip.eardley@bt.com =
<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com> wrote:
> =20
> Christoph,
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#section-5.3 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#section-5.3> is =E2=80=9CSockets =
Interface Extensions by the Basic MPTCP API=E2=80=9D
> (also https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#appendix-A =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#appendix-A> =E2=80=9CAppendix A. =
Requirements on a Future Advanced MPTCP API=E2=80=9D)
> =20
> Ok, I see. Fair enough. Extension to RFC6897 seems fine to me then.
> =20
> =20
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>=20
>=20
> phil
> =20
> From: cpaasch@apple.com <mailto:cpaasch@apple.com> =
[mailto:cpaasch@apple.com <mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>]=20
> Sent: 22 July 2016 09:48
> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com =
<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>>
> Cc: MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential new work item on MPTCP API
> =20
> Hello,
> =20
> On Jul 21, 2016, at 5:43 PM, philip.eardley@bt.com =
<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com> wrote:
> Yesterday Olivier presented about his & Benjamin=E2=80=99s recent work =
on MPTCP socket api. We didn=E2=80=99t have much discussion whether to =
add this to the charter. One comment was that any work should build on =
/reference RFC6897.
> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-mptcp-4.pdf =
<https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-mptcp-4.pdf>
> Please can you comment whether you see this as a useful work item, or =
you think it shouldn=E2=80=99t be worked on, or how it should be adapted =
to something you think the WG should work on.
> =20
> yes, I think it is a very useful work item and am willing to =
contribute to this work.
> =20
> I'm not sure whether this can be seen as an update to 6897. I'm under =
the impression that 6897 takes a different approach, giving users a =
high-level overview of how using MPTCP might look like to an application =
that is talking to a TCP-socket (which happens to end up using MPTCP).
> =20
> Olivier's work seems to rather make MPTCP entirely explicit to the =
application. So, I think both works take a different approach.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> To help prompt the discussion, here=E2=80=99s a very first version of =
some possible charter text
> RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for =
MPTCP-aware applications, including a set of socket operations. Now =
there is more experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will =
re-visit this work, and consider adding more advanced socket operations.
> =20
> RFC6897 was Informational =E2=80=93 would this new Milestone be =
Informational or Experimental?
> =20
> I think it should be Informational.
> =20
> =20
> Christoph
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> Thanks
> phil
> =20
> Philip Eardley
> Research and Innovation
> This email contains BT information, which may be privileged or =
confidential. It's meant only for the individual(s) or entity named =
above. If you're not the intended recipient, note that disclosing, =
copying, distributing or using this information is prohibited. If you've =
received this email in error, please let me know immediately on the =
email address above. Thank you.
> We monitor our email system, and may record your emails.
> British Telecommunications plc
> Registered office: 81 Newgate Street London EC1A 7AJ
> Registered in England no: 1800000
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp>

--Apple-Mail=_1903CACB-986A-40BE-B3FE-27FD69FDB29B
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">That reads as if it is adding more advanced APIs over and =
above what=E2=80=99s in 6897.&nbsp;Given a lot of this work has already =
been covered in 6897, I think it would be useful to determine what =
exactly it is that is desired in addition. Is it an update to 6897 based =
on operational experience? I feel it should also be clear that this =
builds upon 6897 and not re-invent the wheel.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
9 Nov 2016, at 10:21, <a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" =
class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</a> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Following the earlier discussion, there is =
support to add a charter item as follows:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&lt;&lt;RFC6897 defined an =
optional, basic application interface for MPTCP-aware applications, =
including a set of socket operations. Now there is more experience of =
how MPTCP is being used, the WG will re-visit this work, and consider =
adding more advanced socket operations. The document will be =
Informational.&gt;&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">If you disagree with this being added, or suggest some mod to =
this item, please say.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Thanks<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Phil &amp; Yoshi<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, =
225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[<a =
href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mailto:cpaasch@apple.com</a>]<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>31 =
July 2016 20:37<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>MultiPath TCP - IETF WG =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [multipathtcp] =
potential new work item on MPTCP API<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Jul 26, 2016, at =
7:35 AM,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Christoph,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#section-5.3" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#section-5.3</span></a><span=
 class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>is =E2=80=9CSockets =
Interface Extensions by the Basic MPTCP API=E2=80=9D</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">(also<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#appendix-A" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#appendix-A</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9CAppendix A. =
Requirements on a Future Advanced MPTCP API=E2=80=9D)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Ok, I see. Fair enough. Extension to RFC6897 seems =
fine to me then.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Cheers,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Christoph<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">phil</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[<a =
href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mailto:cpaasch@apple.com</a>]<span=
 class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>22 =
July 2016 09:48<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>MultiPath TCP - IETF WG =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [multipathtcp] =
potential new work item on MPTCP API</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Hello,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Jul 21, 2016, at 5:43 PM,<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Yesterday Olivier presented about his &amp; Benjamin=E2=80=99s =
recent work on MPTCP socket api. We didn=E2=80=99t have much discussion =
whether to add this to the charter. One comment was that any work should =
build on /reference RFC6897.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-mptcp-4.pdf" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-mptcp-4.pd=
f</span></a></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Please can you comment whether you see this as a useful work =
item, or you think it shouldn=E2=80=99t be worked on, or how it should =
be adapted to something you think the WG should work on.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">yes, I think it is a very useful work =
item and am willing to contribute to this work.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I'm not sure whether this can be seen as =
an update to 6897. I'm under the impression that 6897 takes a different =
approach, giving users a high-level overview of how using MPTCP might =
look like to an application that is talking to a TCP-socket (which =
happens to end up using MPTCP).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Olivier's work seems to rather make MPTCP =
entirely explicit to the application. So, I think both works take a =
different approach.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">To help prompt the discussion, here=E2=80=99s a =
very first version of some possible charter text</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">RFC6897 defined an =
optional, basic application interface for MPTCP-aware applications, =
including a set of socket operations. Now there is more experience of =
how MPTCP is being used, the WG will re-visit this work, and consider =
adding more advanced socket operations.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">RFC6897 was Informational =
=E2=80=93 would this new Milestone be Informational or =
Experimental?</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I think it should be Informational.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Christoph<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">phil</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Philip Eardley</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Research and =
Innovation</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This email contains BT information, which may be privileged =
or confidential. It's meant only for the individual(s) or entity named =
above. If you're not the intended recipient, note that disclosing, =
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Hi Med,

Inline...

> On 9 Nov 2016, at 09:45, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Alan Ford [mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com]
>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 9 novembre 2016 09:04
>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>> Cc : Mirja K=C3=BChlewind; Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be;
>> multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
>>=20
>> Hi Med,
>>=20
>> Thanks for providing some scenarios. Comments inline=E2=80=A6
>>=20
>>> On 9 Nov 2016, at 06:41, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Alan,
>>>=20
>>> Below some examples to illustrate the problem I'm talking about.
>>>=20
>>> (1) Private IPv4 addresses or RFC6598 Shared Address space
>>>=20
>>> Let's consider this configuration (reusing the same topology in this
>> thread):
>>>=20
>>> laptop <-----------+
>>>                  | (Public IPv4@)
>>> smartphone <----> cpe <----FIXED------> mcp <------> server
>>>    +             +
>>> cellular1     cellular2
>>>               (Private IPv4)
>>>=20
>>> In this example, the multipath CPEs gets a public IPv4 address from =
the
>> fixed network and a private IPv4 address (or an address from RFC6598
>> range) from the mobile network (cellular2).
>>>=20
>>> Consider the server is MPTCP-capable.
>>>=20
>>> The first subflow can be placed using the fixed line. Fine.
>>> The MCP will remove itself from the connection because the server is
>> MPTCP-capable. Cool!
>>> The second subflow that will use cellaulr2 cannot be established =
because
>> of a basic forwarding problem: packets sourced with private IPv4 =
addresses
>> cannot be forwarded over the public Internet.
>>=20
>> Presumably cellular2 goes through a NAT in order to talk to anything =
in
>> the public Internet. So it can be addressed to the server, and work =
like
>> any other MPTCP subflow behind a NAT would work today.
>=20
> [Med] You are assuming that the same Internet APN will be used for the =
hybrid access. This is not a valid assumption. Some deployment are =
considering dedicated APN for this service to avoid additional public =
IPv4 address are assigned to this service and also to avoid overload the =
service function at the Gi interface with traffic that will be routed to =
the backbone of the same provider.

Regrettably I=E2=80=99m not familiar with all these 3GPP terms here, =
however are you saying that cellular2 would not be able to have =
external, public, IP connectivity? If not, what=E2=80=99s the point of =
that interface? I was assuming that it would, and therefore would be =
able to talk direct to the server.

>> What am I missing? Why is this any different to today with a MPTCP =
end
>> host with private IP addresses?
>=20
> [Med] The difference is that there is no NAT in the path before the =
MCP. The MCP has the role to use the IP address assigned by the fixed =
line when forwarding the secondary subflow.=20

I wasn=E2=80=99t talking before the MCP; in this scenario we are talking =
that the MCP gets out of the path - so what cellular2 needs to do is =
reach the server to open the second subflow.

>> The smartphone does not have knowledge of cellular2, presumably=E2=80=A6=
 So the
>> CPE would have to do something funky with the traffic to split it =
over
>> fixed and cellular2
>=20
> [Med] This is a proxy function (MCP) in the CPE! I didn't focused on =
that part of the flow because there are other problems there. If the CPE =
does not embed an MCP, an MPTCP capable host (laptop of smartphone) may =
not be able to aggregate the resources of multiple access links. Going =
native will lead to less QoE compared to involving the MCP located in =
the CPE.=20
>=20
> - but it could still establish the subflow towards the
>> server on cellular2, without any knowledge of the smartphone or the
>> network.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> (2) IPv6-only access network
>>>=20
>>> Lets' consider this configuration:
>>>=20
>>> laptop <-----------+
>>>                  | (Public IPv4@
>>> smartphone <----> cpe <----FIXED------> mcp <------> server
>>>    +              +                                IPv4-only
>>> cellular1     cellular2
>>>               (IPv6-only prefix)
>>>=20
>>> In this example, the multipath CPEs gets a public IPv4 address from =
the
>> fixed network and an IPv6 prefix from the mobile network (cellular2).
>>>=20
>>> Consider the server is MPTCP-capable, but IPv4-only.
>>>=20
>>> The first subflow can be placed using the fixed line. Fine.
>>> The MCP will remove itself from the connection because the server is
>> MPTCP-capable. Cool!
>>> The second subflow that will use cellaulr2 cannot be added because =
the
>> remote server does not support IPv6.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> So in this case, if the MCP was on-path, it could be dual-stack and =
could
>> add its IPv6 address to the subflows.
>=20
> [Med] Yes.=20
>=20
>>=20
>> If the MCP knew the connection was being proxied, would this help? =
Since
>> as you=E2=80=99ve already defined, the MCP <=E2=80=94> server path =
would then be TCP. If
>> the MCP stayed on-path, you could do multi path towards the MCP but =
then
>> lose MPTCP capabilities to the server.
>=20
> [Med] The MCP can do the following:
> * It removes itself from the connection, then the connection will be =
e2e MPTCP... but only one access network will be used at the client =
side.
> * The MCP may decide the stay in the connection to glue two adjacent =
MPTCP connections. Doing so, we benefit from both MPTCP capabilities at =
the client and servier side.=20
>=20
> The exact behavior should IMHO be configurable.=20

So the desire is for the CPE to make this choice, based on some internal =
logic, and without having a MCP address to explicitly communicate with?

>>=20
>> Or alternatively, the MCP could always stay on-path but only add IPv6
>> addresses if it somehow had knowledge that was required based on the
>> source or destination address. Does it need to know by a flag? Would =
there
>> actually be any harm by maintaining itself on the path anyway?
>=20
> [Med] I don't see a harm in doing so (see above), but those who want =
to have an e2e MPTCP connection may see something bad in that design. I =
though they wanted to completely remove the MCP from the path when both =
the client and server are MPTCP-capable.=20

That would certainly be desirable, yes. But if not possible, then =
there=E2=80=99s not much harm with always sitting on the path - it=E2=80=99=
s a bit like a NAT.

> It=E2=80=99s not
>> like it=E2=80=99s doing anything other than packet forwarding on the =
initial
>> subflow, and just adds its IPv6 addresses to the initial exchanges in =
case
>=20
> [Med] It needs to terminate the MPTCP connections, mange them, etc. =
This is exactly the MCP job.=20
>=20
>> it would be useful - and if it receives traffic to the relevant
>> address/port, it can start forwarding it to the far end too (possibly =
over
>> a second IPv4 subflow). Again, no need or any explicit signalling to =
make
>> this work.
>=20
> [Med] We are not discussing about any explicit signaling her, Alan. We =
are discussing the implications on removing the MCP from the path based =
on SYN/ACK that will carry an MP_CAPABLE option!

My hypothesis here is that an explicit signal is not required if you =
choose to sit on the path or not based on the presence of MP_CAPABLE in =
the SYN/ACK.

>>=20
>>> I can share other examples where problems arise when the proxy is
>> blindly removed from the connection based on the presence of =
MP_CAPABLE in
>> SYN/ACK.
>>=20
>> If it would help to clarify, please do! Since I don=E2=80=99t see a =
problem in
>> (1), and whilst I can see a potential problem in (2) above, I am not =
sure
>> how you are resolving it. Any other examples very welcome!
>=20
> [Med] Happily. You can consider a homenet architecture =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7368 where MPTCP-capable hosts may not be =
aware of the presence of multiple paths (see this simple topology).  The =
use of a proxy will to deterministically make use of the path diversity.

Great! So the CPE can act as a MCP here, and optionally there could be a =
secondary MCP in the path to terminate paths for the far ends that do =
not support MPTCP (i.e. sitting on the path if the SYN/ACK does not =
contain MPTCP capability, and could advertise its own address in an =
ADD_ADDR). So why do you need an explicit signal in this case?

Regards,
Alan



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Med,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Inline...</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 9 Nov 2016, at 09:45, <a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">-----Message d'origine-----<br class=3D"">De&nbsp;: Alan Ford =
[<a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com</a>]<br class=3D"">Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;=
: mercredi 9 novembre 2016 09:04<br class=3D"">=C3=80&nbsp;: BOUCADAIR =
Mohamed IMT/OLN<br class=3D"">Cc&nbsp;: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind; <a =
href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" =
class=3D"">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a>;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">Objet&nbsp;: Re: =
[multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Hi Med,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks for providing =
some scenarios. Comments inline=E2=80=A6<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On 9 Nov 2016, at 06:41, =
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi =
Alan,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Below some examples to illustrate the =
problem I'm talking about.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(1) Private IPv4 =
addresses or RFC6598 Shared Address space<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Let's consider this configuration (reusing the same topology =
in this<br class=3D""></blockquote>thread):<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">laptop &lt;-----------+<br =
class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| (Public IPv4@)<br class=3D"">smartphone =
&lt;----&gt; cpe &lt;----FIXED------&gt; mcp &lt;------&gt; server<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+<=
br class=3D""> cellular1 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;cellular2<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;(Private IPv4)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In this example, =
the multipath CPEs gets a public IPv4 address from the<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>fixed network and a private IPv4 address (or an =
address from RFC6598<br class=3D"">range) from the mobile network =
(cellular2).<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Consider the server is MPTCP-capable.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The first subflow can be placed using the fixed line. =
Fine.<br class=3D"">The MCP will remove itself from the connection =
because the server is<br class=3D""></blockquote>MPTCP-capable. Cool!<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The second subflow that =
will use cellaulr2 cannot be established because<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>of a basic forwarding problem: packets sourced =
with private IPv4 addresses<br class=3D"">cannot be forwarded over the =
public Internet.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Presumably cellular2 goes =
through a NAT in order to talk to anything in<br class=3D"">the public =
Internet. So it can be addressed to the server, and work like<br =
class=3D"">any other MPTCP subflow behind a NAT would work today.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">[Med] You are assuming that the =
same Internet APN will be used for the hybrid access. This is not a =
valid assumption. Some deployment are considering dedicated APN for this =
service to avoid additional public IPv4 address are assigned to this =
service and also to avoid overload the service function at the Gi =
interface with traffic that will be routed to the backbone of the same =
provider.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Regrettably I=E2=80=99m not familiar with all =
these 3GPP terms here, however are you saying that cellular2 would not =
be able to have external, public, IP connectivity? If not, what=E2=80=99s =
the point of that interface? I was assuming that it would, and therefore =
would be able to talk direct to the server.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">What am I missing? Why =
is this any different to today with a MPTCP end<br class=3D"">host with =
private IP addresses?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">[Med] =
The difference is that there is no NAT in the path before the MCP. The =
MCP has the role to use the IP address assigned by the fixed line when =
forwarding the secondary subflow. <br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>I wasn=E2=80=
=99t talking before the MCP; in this scenario we are talking that the =
MCP gets out of the path - so what cellular2 needs to do is reach the <i =
class=3D"">server</i>&nbsp;to open the second subflow.<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">The smartphone does not have knowledge of cellular2, =
presumably=E2=80=A6 So the<br class=3D"">CPE would have to do something =
funky with the traffic to split it over<br class=3D"">fixed and =
cellular2<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">[Med] This is a =
proxy function (MCP) in the CPE! I didn't focused on that part of the =
flow because there are other problems there. If the CPE does not embed =
an MCP, an MPTCP capable host (laptop of smartphone) may not be able to =
aggregate the resources of multiple access links. Going native will lead =
to less QoE compared to involving the MCP located in the CPE. <br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> - but it could still establish the subflow =
towards the<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">server on =
cellular2, without any knowledge of the smartphone or the<br =
class=3D"">network.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><br class=3D"">(2) IPv6-only access network<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Lets' consider this configuration:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">laptop &lt;-----------+<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| (Public IPv4@<br class=3D"">smartphone =
&lt;----&gt; cpe &lt;----FIXED------&gt; mcp &lt;------&gt; server<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;IPv4-only<br class=3D""> cellular1 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;cellular2<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;(IPv6-only prefix)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In this =
example, the multipath CPEs gets a public IPv4 address from the<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>fixed network and an IPv6 prefix from the mobile =
network (cellular2).<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Consider the server is MPTCP-capable, but =
IPv4-only.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The first subflow can be placed =
using the fixed line. Fine.<br class=3D"">The MCP will remove itself =
from the connection because the server is<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>MPTCP-capable. Cool!<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The second subflow that will use cellaulr2 =
cannot be added because the<br class=3D""></blockquote>remote server =
does not support IPv6.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">So in this case, =
if the MCP was on-path, it could be dual-stack and could<br class=3D"">add=
 its IPv6 address to the subflows.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">[Med] Yes. <br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">If the MCP knew the connection =
was being proxied, would this help? Since<br class=3D"">as you=E2=80=99ve =
already defined, the MCP &lt;=E2=80=94&gt; server path would then be =
TCP. If<br class=3D"">the MCP stayed on-path, you could do multi path =
towards the MCP but then<br class=3D"">lose MPTCP capabilities to the =
server.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">[Med] The MCP can do =
the following:<br class=3D"">* It removes itself from the connection, =
then the connection will be e2e MPTCP... but only one access network =
will be used at the client side.<br class=3D"">* The MCP may decide the =
stay in the connection to glue two adjacent MPTCP connections. Doing so, =
we benefit from both MPTCP capabilities at the client and servier side. =
<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The exact behavior should IMHO be =
configurable. <br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>So the desire is for the CPE to make this choice, =
based on some internal logic, and without having a MCP address to =
explicitly communicate with?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Or alternatively, the MCP could always stay =
on-path but only add IPv6<br class=3D"">addresses if it somehow had =
knowledge that was required based on the<br class=3D"">source or =
destination address. Does it need to know by a flag? Would there<br =
class=3D"">actually be any harm by maintaining itself on the path =
anyway?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">[Med] I don't see a =
harm in doing so (see above), but those who want to have an e2e MPTCP =
connection may see something bad in that design. I though they wanted to =
completely remove the MCP from the path when both the client and server =
are MPTCP-capable. <br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>That would certainly be desirable, yes. But if not =
possible, then there=E2=80=99s not much harm with always sitting on the =
path - it=E2=80=99s a bit like a NAT.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""> It=E2=80=99s =
not<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">like it=E2=80=99s =
doing anything other than packet forwarding on the initial<br =
class=3D"">subflow, and just adds its IPv6 addresses to the initial =
exchanges in case<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">[Med] It =
needs to terminate the MPTCP connections, mange them, etc. This is =
exactly the MCP job. <br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">it would be useful - and if it receives traffic =
to the relevant<br class=3D"">address/port, it can start forwarding it =
to the far end too (possibly over<br class=3D"">a second IPv4 subflow). =
Again, no need or any explicit signalling to make<br class=3D"">this =
work.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">[Med] We are not =
discussing about any explicit signaling her, Alan. We are discussing the =
implications on removing the MCP from the path based on SYN/ACK that =
will carry an MP_CAPABLE option!<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>My =
hypothesis here is that an explicit signal is not required if you choose =
to sit on the path or not based on the presence of MP_CAPABLE in the =
SYN/ACK.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I can share other =
examples where problems arise when the proxy is<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>blindly removed from the connection based on the =
presence of MP_CAPABLE in<br class=3D"">SYN/ACK.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">If it would help to clarify, please do! Since I don=E2=80=99t =
see a problem in<br class=3D"">(1), and whilst I can see a potential =
problem in (2) above, I am not sure<br class=3D"">how you are resolving =
it. Any other examples very welcome!<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">[Med] Happily. You can consider a homenet architecture <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7368" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7368</a> where MPTCP-capable =
hosts may not be aware of the presence of multiple paths (see this =
simple topology). &nbsp;The use of a proxy will to deterministically =
make use of the path diversity.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Great! =
So the CPE can act as a MCP here, and optionally there could be a =
secondary MCP in the path to terminate paths for the far ends that do =
not support MPTCP (i.e. sitting on the path if the SYN/ACK does not =
contain MPTCP capability, and could advertise its own address in an =
ADD_ADDR). So why do you need an explicit signal in this =
case?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Alan</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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> On Nov 9, 2016, at 2:07 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> <mohamed.boucad=
air@orange.com> wrote:
>=20
> Re-,
> =20
> There are two cases :
> =C2=B7         UC#1 : MPTCP Client=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3DMPTCP Proxy----Server
> =C2=B7         UC#2 : Client---CPE(MPTCP Proxy)=3D=3D=3D=3D MPTCP Proxy---=
-Server
> =20
> For UC#1, I don=E2=80=99t see why the same port number will be returned by=
 the OS given that TIME_WAIT is not expired.

TCP is asked to connect once. You seem to now expect it to try twice - TCP c=
annot (it can't pick ports by itself) and user land cannot be expected to or=
 may not be able to.

> =20
> Since the MPTCP Proxy in UC#2 is tracking TCP connections (TCP/MPTCP glue)=
, it is the responsibility of the MPTCP Proxy to select the source port to u=
se. This is similar to a NAT function. We are leveraging on the TCP BEHAVE r=
ecommendations.

 It might not be able to use the source port it wants either.

Joe


> =20
> Cheers,
> Med
> =20
> De : Joe Touch [mailto:touch@isi.edu]=20
> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 9 novembre 2016 10:00
> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> Cc : Mirja K=C3=BChlewind; Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be; multipathtcp@=
ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> You've just opened a connection using a pair of ports. You sent a RST, but=
 RSTs are not reliable. So you can't reuse that port pair until TIME-WAIT ex=
pires.
>=20
> [Med] This a fair observation. Another source port number will be used for=
 the fallback connection (if any). =20
>=20
> That is no longer TCP.
> Remember that it is not TCP that picks these ports. The OS does when the u=
ser didn't but the user can.
> =20
> Joe

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
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med.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@ora=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">Re-,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">There are two cases&nbsp;:<o:p></o:p></span></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=C2=B7<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">UC#1&nbsp;: MPTCP Client=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DMPTCP Proxy----Server<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=C2=B7<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">UC#2&nbsp;: Client---CPE(MPTCP Proxy=
)=3D=3D=3D=3D MPTCP Proxy----Server<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">For UC#1, I don=E2=80=99t see why=
 the same port number will be returned by the OS given that TIME_WAIT is not=
 expired.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>TCP is aske=
d to connect once. You seem to now expect it to try twice - TCP cannot (it c=
an't pick ports by itself) and user land cannot be expected to or may not be=
 able to.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"WordSection1=
"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Since the MPTCP Proxy in UC#2 is t=
racking TCP connections (TCP/MPTCP glue), it is the responsibility of the MP=
TCP Proxy to select the source port to use.
 This is similar to a NAT function. We are leveraging on the TCP BEHAVE reco=
mmendations.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;It=
 might not be able to use the source port it wants either.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Joe</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div clas=
s=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;;color:windowtext"> Joe Touch [<a href=3D"mailto:touch@isi.edu">mailt=
o:touch@isi.edu</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 9 novembre 2016 10:00<br>
<b>=C3=80&nbsp;:</b> BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind; <a href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure=
@uclouvain.be">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:multi=
pathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4=
.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt=
"><br>
You've just opened a connection using a pair of ports. You sent a RST, but R=
STs are not reliable. So you can't reuse that port pair until TIME-WAIT expi=
res.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier N=
ew&quot;">[Med] This a fair observation. Another source port number will be u=
sed for the fallback connection (if any). &nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That is no longer TCP.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Remember that it is n=
ot TCP that picks these ports. The OS does when the user didn't but the user=
 can.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Joe<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>


</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
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Phil,

> Following the earlier discussion, there is support to add a charter item
> as follows:
>
> <<RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for
> MPTCP-aware applications, including a set of socket operations. Now
> there is more experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will
> re-visit this work, and consider adding more advanced socket operations.
> The document will be Informational.>>
>
> If you disagree with this being added, or suggest some mod to this item,
> please say.

Fine for me. When RFC6987 was published, nobody had experience with an 
API for MPTCP. With the existing deployments, there is experience with 
such APIs and it makes sense to define an API that would allow 
applications to interact with an MPTCP stack. The availability of such 
an API will be very important for those who want to deploy MPTCP 
end-to-end. There are various use cases where it makes sense for an 
application to control the utilisation of the underlying subflows and 
the WG should support those use cases.

When MPTCP was designed, we refrained from doing any modification to the 
socket API to ensure that it could be incrementally deployed and support 
existing application. Looking at the largest deployment, it turns out 
that this deployment is an application that does a clever utilisation of 
the underlying MPTCP stack and not a generic application that simply 
runs on top of MPTCP...

We should probably start the work by looking back at RFC6897 and examine 
which parts of this document have been implemented or can be implemented 
and which parts should be updated based on the operational experience.


Olivier





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Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 15:37:09 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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On 11/9/2016 7:37 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>
> TCP is asked to connect once. You seem to now expect it to try twice -
> TCP cannot (it can't pick ports by itself) and user land cannot be
> expected to or may not be able to.
>
> [Med] How that is different from establishing many TCP subflows
> between the same pair of IP address, using distinct source port
> numbers:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-07#section-3.4?
>

The difference is that the ports of the primary flow are no longer under
your control.

I don't know if there's a workaround for MPTCP, but this is exactly why
this technique cannot work for TCP in general. Further, if it doesn't
work for TCP, then MPTCP is no longer TCP in some cases (which means it
can't be used as such interchangeably).

>  
>
>    This subflow manager creates N subflows between the same pair of IP
>
>    addresses.  The N subflows are created by the client and differ only
>
>    in the source port selected by the client. 
>
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>   
>
> Since the MPTCP Proxy in UC#2 is tracking TCP connections (TCP/MPTCP
> glue), it is the responsibility of the MPTCP Proxy to select the
> source port to use. This is similar to a NAT function. We are
> leveraging on the TCP BEHAVE recommendations.
>
>  
>
>  It might not be able to use the source port it wants either.
>
> [Med] The only case I see is when all external ports are exhausted.
> This is a very very extremely case.
>

I'm speaking of a case where you want/need to pick both port numbers.

Joe


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/9/2016 7:37 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
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      <div class="WordSection1"><br>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">TCP is
                asked to connect once. You seem to now expect it to try
                twice - TCP cannot (it can't pick ports by itself) and
                user land cannot be expected to or may not be able to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;;color:black" lang="EN-US">[Med] How that is
                different from establishing many TCP subflows between
                the same pair of IP address, using distinct source port
                numbers:
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-07#section-3.4">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-07#section-3.4</a>?</span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    The difference is that the ports of the primary flow are no longer
    under your control.<br>
    <br>
    I don't know if there's a workaround for MPTCP, but this is exactly
    why this technique cannot work for TCP in general. Further, if it
    doesn't work for TCP, then MPTCP is no longer TCP in some cases
    (which means it can't be used as such interchangeably).<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAEB20@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;;color:black" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;;color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;;color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">   This subflow
                manager creates N subflows between the same pair of IP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;;color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">   addresses. 
                The N subflows are created by the client and differ only<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;;color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">   in the
                source port selected by the client. 
                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;;color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;;color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">  
              </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Since the MPTCP Proxy in UC#2 is
                tracking TCP connections (TCP/MPTCP glue), it is the
                responsibility of the MPTCP Proxy to select the source
                port to use. This is similar to a NAT function. We are
                leveraging on the TCP BEHAVE recommendations.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> It
                might not be able to use the source port it wants
                either.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;;color:black" lang="EN-US">[Med] The only case
                I see is when all external ports are exhausted. This is
                a very very extremely case.</span><br>
            </p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I'm speaking of a case where you want/need to pick both port
    numbers. <br>
    <br>
    Joe<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <B7D8197F-D833-41BB-A4A4-D6F31A3B8993@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <4fceb7e5-a0b0-d4d2-8669-fad0df59095d@uclouvain.be> <C0212561-63DA-4578-9795-928B51F2A71B@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <c93d9d6b-f46b-2b11-da6b-a308159ef7c0@isi.edu> <00ba6ab8-8fbf-ab19-b996-b84b87ad5520@isi.edu> <F9AAAF6C-DF82-412E-9C88-9043CC1EC3AA@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE088@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <ca2610f2-4f1b-5123-1e6e-697dfbe7cdc7@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE31D@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <fe1856! ! 0f-098e-6953-55b9-f9d147b87c48@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE767@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A728A74C-CB70-4B09-B44D-8D0D412505E9@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE807@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <06BEE9D3-CE48-406A-81D4-9797B34F1BCE@isi.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAEB20@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <dd664340-8e78-61b0-9d5b-606d949bff2c@isi.edu>
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From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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It might not be for MPTCP, but it's a huge issue for TCP.

Which begs the question of whether MPTCP would then be diverging so far
from TCP that it isn't TCP anymore.

Joe


On 11/9/2016 7:58 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>
> Re-,
>
>  
>
> Thank you for the clarification.
>
>  
>
> Noted. As I don’t have concrete cases where there will be a need to
> pick a particular port, I’m not sure this is a big issue.
>
>  
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>  
>
> *De :*Joe Touch [mailto:touch@isi.edu]
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 9 novembre 2016 16:50
> *À :* BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> *Cc :* Mirja Kühlewind; Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be;
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> *Objet :* Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> On 11/9/2016 7:37 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
>      
>
>     TCP is asked to connect once. You seem to now expect it to try
>     twice - TCP cannot (it can't pick ports by itself) and user land
>     cannot be expected to or may not be able to.
>
>     [Med] How that is different from establishing many TCP subflows
>     between the same pair of IP address, using distinct source port
>     numbers:
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-07#section-3.4?
>
>
> The difference is that the ports of the primary flow are no longer
> under your control.
>
> I don't know if there's a workaround for MPTCP, but this is exactly
> why this technique cannot work for TCP in general. Further, if it
> doesn't work for TCP, then MPTCP is no longer TCP in some cases (which
> means it can't be used as such interchangeably).
>
>
>  
>
>    This subflow manager creates N subflows between the same pair of IP
>
>    addresses.  The N subflows are created by the client and differ only
>
>    in the source port selected by the client. 
>
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>   
>
> Since the MPTCP Proxy in UC#2 is tracking TCP connections (TCP/MPTCP
> glue), it is the responsibility of the MPTCP Proxy to select the
> source port to use. This is similar to a NAT function. We are
> leveraging on the TCP BEHAVE recommendations.
>
>  
>
>  It might not be able to use the source port it wants either.
>
> [Med] The only case I see is when all external ports are exhausted.
> This is a very very extremely case.
>
>
> I'm speaking of a case where you want/need to pick both port numbers.
>
> [Med] Acked.
>
>
>
> Joe
>


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    <p>It might not be for MPTCP, but it's a huge issue for TCP.</p>
    <p>Which begs the question of whether MPTCP would then be diverging
      so far from TCP that it isn't TCP anymore.</p>
    <p>Joe<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/9/2016 7:58 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAEBF9@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black" lang="EN-US">Thank
            you for the clarification.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black" lang="EN-US">Noted.
            As I don’t have concrete cases where there will be a need to
            pick a particular port, I’m not sure this is a big issue.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black" lang="EN-US">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black" lang="EN-US">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
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              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US">De :</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US"> Joe Touch [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:touch@isi.edu">mailto:touch@isi.edu</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 9 novembre 2016 16:50<br>
                  <b>À :</b> </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">BOUCADAIR
                  Mohamed IMT/OLN<br>
                  <b>Cc :</b> Mirja Kühlewind;
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a>;
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Objet :</b> Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP
                  proxy charter item<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 11/9/2016 7:37 AM, <a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">
                mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">TCP
                    is asked to connect once. You seem to now expect it
                    to try twice - TCP cannot (it can't pick ports by
                    itself) and user land cannot be expected to or may
                    not be able to.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                    style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                    New ;color:black&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
                    lang="EN-US">[Med] How that is different from
                    establishing many TCP subflows between the same pair
                    of IP address, using distinct source port numbers:
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-07#section-3.4">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-07#section-3.4</a>?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            The difference is that the ports of the primary flow are no
            longer under your control.<br>
            <br>
            I don't know if there's a workaround for MPTCP, but this is
            exactly why this technique cannot work for TCP in general.
            Further, if it doesn't work for TCP, then MPTCP is no longer
            TCP in some cases (which means it can't be used as such
            interchangeably).<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
            1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New
                  ;color:windowtext&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New
                  ;color:windowtext&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US">   This subflow manager creates N
                  subflows between the same pair of IP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New
                  ;color:windowtext&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US">   addresses.  The N subflows are created
                  by the client and differ only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New
                  ;color:windowtext&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US">   in the source port selected by the
                  client. 
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New
                  ;color:windowtext&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US">   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New
                  ;color:windowtext&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US">  
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                  New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;" lang="EN-US">Since the
                  MPTCP Proxy in UC#2 is tracking TCP connections
                  (TCP/MPTCP glue), it is the responsibility of the
                  MPTCP Proxy to select the source port to use. This is
                  similar to a NAT function. We are leveraging on the
                  TCP BEHAVE recommendations.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> It
                  might not be able to use the source port it wants
                  either.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New
                  ;color:black&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;" lang="EN-US">[Med]
                  The only case I see is when all external ports are
                  exhausted. This is a very very extremely case.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
            I'm speaking of a case where you want/need to pick both port
            numbers. <span style="color:black">
              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">[Med] Acked.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
            <br>
            Joe<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 16:48:48 +0000
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References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <87270f12-59ee-3caf-eeef-685195b35dcd@uclouvain.be> <A5256E6E-E2BA-4763-AEF9-3CC50EB432A2@gmail.com> <7f9dd7ab-2e24-0319-b62f-fc4fa68b9568@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE3A6@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A95CD4E7-6A3B-4622-A818-03B10AD75D4D@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE743@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <06A031EE-5F50-4A0F-BBEC-9F2766C543FF@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE7DC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <53CD2649-4063-4EA8-8076-71990B2D2371@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE977@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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OK got it - I think. I=E2=80=99ll summarise here and please correct me =
if my understanding is wrong.

Essentially, there are cases where the CPE=E2=80=99s secondary uplink =
does not have public IP access and thus needs to go via the MCP, but if =
the MCP has removed itself from the path, the secondary uplink won=E2=80=99=
t know about the MCP. You need a way to signal this information to a MCP =
over the primary path so it doesn=E2=80=99t remove itself.

Is this the only case where this signal is required?

Why can=E2=80=99t these scenarios be handled with explicit mode, for =
example with using the DHCP option to pass down the MCP address?

Regards,
Alan

> On 9 Nov 2016, at 14:12, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>=20
> Re-,
> =20
> Please see inline.
> =20
> Cheers,
> Med
> =20
> De : Alan Ford [mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com =
<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>]=20
> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 9 novembre 2016 14:39
> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> Cc : Mirja K=C3=BChlewind; Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be =
<mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>; multipathtcp@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
> =20
> Hi Med,
> =20
> Inline...
> =20
> On 9 Nov 2016, at 09:45, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com =
<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Alan Ford [mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com =
<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>]
> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 9 novembre 2016 09:04
> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> Cc : Mirja K=C3=BChlewind; Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be =
<mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>;
> multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
>=20
> Hi Med,
>=20
> Thanks for providing some scenarios. Comments inline=E2=80=A6
>=20
>=20
> On 9 Nov 2016, at 06:41, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com =
<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Alan,
>=20
> Below some examples to illustrate the problem I'm talking about.
>=20
> (1) Private IPv4 addresses or RFC6598 Shared Address space
>=20
> Let's consider this configuration (reusing the same topology in this
> thread):
>=20
>=20
> laptop <-----------+
>                  | (Public IPv4@)
> smartphone <----> cpe <----FIXED------> mcp <------> server
>    +             +
> cellular1     cellular2
>               (Private IPv4)
>=20
> In this example, the multipath CPEs gets a public IPv4 address from =
the
> fixed network and a private IPv4 address (or an address from RFC6598
> range) from the mobile network (cellular2).
>=20
>=20
> Consider the server is MPTCP-capable.
>=20
> The first subflow can be placed using the fixed line. Fine.
> The MCP will remove itself from the connection because the server is
> MPTCP-capable. Cool!
>=20
> The second subflow that will use cellaulr2 cannot be established =
because
> of a basic forwarding problem: packets sourced with private IPv4 =
addresses
> cannot be forwarded over the public Internet.
>=20
> Presumably cellular2 goes through a NAT in order to talk to anything =
in
> the public Internet. So it can be addressed to the server, and work =
like
> any other MPTCP subflow behind a NAT would work today.
>=20
> [Med] You are assuming that the same Internet APN will be used for the =
hybrid access. This is not a valid assumption. Some deployment are =
considering dedicated APN for this service to avoid additional public =
IPv4 address are assigned to this service and also to avoid overload the =
service function at the Gi interface with traffic that will be routed to =
the backbone of the same provider.
> =20
> Regrettably I=E2=80=99m not familiar with all these 3GPP terms here, =
however are you saying that cellular2 would not be able to have =
external, public, IP connectivity?
> [Med] Yes, because this is supposed to be a dedicated APN for hybrid =
access service. FWIW, you can refer to the concept of APN =
herehttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6459#section-2.2 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6459#section-2.2>.
> =20
> If not, what=E2=80=99s the point of that interface? I was assuming =
that it would, and therefore would be able to talk direct to the server.
> [Med] That=E2=80=99s may be another APN: Internet APN.
>=20
>=20
> What am I missing? Why is this any different to today with a MPTCP end
> host with private IP addresses?
>=20
> [Med] The difference is that there is no NAT in the path before the =
MCP. The MCP has the role to use the IP address assigned by the fixed =
line when forwarding the secondary subflow.
> =20
> I wasn=E2=80=99t talking before the MCP; in this scenario we are =
talking that the MCP gets out of the path
> [Med] I got that.
> =20
> - so what cellular2 needs to do is reach the server to open the second =
subflow.
> [Med] Cellular2 needs nothing! But MPTCP connections need the flows to =
be intercepted but the MCP. That is avoid withdrawing the MCP even if =
the remote server is MPTCP-capable.  Please note that I=E2=80=99m not =
expressing my own preferences here, but I=E2=80=99m explaining what kind =
of problems may arise if we make invalid assumptions.
> =20
> The smartphone does not have knowledge of cellular2, presumably=E2=80=A6=
 So the
> CPE would have to do something funky with the traffic to split it over
> fixed and cellular2
>=20
> [Med] This is a proxy function (MCP) in the CPE! I didn't focused on =
that part of the flow because there are other problems there. If the CPE =
does not embed an MCP, an MPTCP capable host (laptop of smartphone) may =
not be able to aggregate the resources of multiple access links. Going =
native will lead to less QoE compared to involving the MCP located in =
the CPE.=20
>=20
> - but it could still establish the subflow towards the
>=20
> server on cellular2, without any knowledge of the smartphone or the
> network.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> (2) IPv6-only access network
>=20
> Lets' consider this configuration:
>=20
> laptop <-----------+
>                  | (Public IPv4@
> smartphone <----> cpe <----FIXED------> mcp <------> server
>    +              +                                IPv4-only
> cellular1     cellular2
>               (IPv6-only prefix)
>=20
> In this example, the multipath CPEs gets a public IPv4 address from =
the
> fixed network and an IPv6 prefix from the mobile network (cellular2).
>=20
>=20
> Consider the server is MPTCP-capable, but IPv4-only.
>=20
> The first subflow can be placed using the fixed line. Fine.
> The MCP will remove itself from the connection because the server is
> MPTCP-capable. Cool!
>=20
> The second subflow that will use cellaulr2 cannot be added because the
> remote server does not support IPv6.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> So in this case, if the MCP was on-path, it could be dual-stack and =
could
> add its IPv6 address to the subflows.
>=20
> [Med] Yes.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> If the MCP knew the connection was being proxied, would this help? =
Since
> as you=E2=80=99ve already defined, the MCP <=E2=80=94> server path =
would then be TCP. If
> the MCP stayed on-path, you could do multi path towards the MCP but =
then
> lose MPTCP capabilities to the server.
>=20
> [Med] The MCP can do the following:
> * It removes itself from the connection, then the connection will be =
e2e MPTCP... but only one access network will be used at the client =
side.
> * The MCP may decide the stay in the connection to glue two adjacent =
MPTCP connections. Doing so, we benefit from both MPTCP capabilities at =
the client and servier side.=20
>=20
> The exact behavior should IMHO be configurable.=20
> =20
> So the desire is for the CPE to make this choice, based on some =
internal logic, and without having a MCP address to explicitly =
communicate with?
> [Med] My take on this is to have configurable parameters that will be =
instructed by an operator. The MCP will behave according to those =
instructions. If an MCP is configured to be removed from a connection, =
it will coordinate its withdrawal accordingly.=20
>=20
>=20
> Or alternatively, the MCP could always stay on-path but only add IPv6
> addresses if it somehow had knowledge that was required based on the
> source or destination address. Does it need to know by a flag? Would =
there
> actually be any harm by maintaining itself on the path anyway?
>=20
> [Med] I don't see a harm in doing so (see above), but those who want =
to have an e2e MPTCP connection may see something bad in that design. I =
though they wanted to completely remove the MCP from the path when both =
the client and server are MPTCP-capable.
> =20
> That would certainly be desirable, yes. But if not possible, then =
there=E2=80=99s not much harm with always sitting on the path - it=E2=80=99=
s a bit like a NAT.
>=20
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s not
>=20
> like it=E2=80=99s doing anything other than packet forwarding on the =
initial
> subflow, and just adds its IPv6 addresses to the initial exchanges in =
case
>=20
> [Med] It needs to terminate the MPTCP connections, mange them, etc. =
This is exactly the MCP job.=20
>=20
>=20
> it would be useful - and if it receives traffic to the relevant
> address/port, it can start forwarding it to the far end too (possibly =
over
> a second IPv4 subflow). Again, no need or any explicit signalling to =
make
> this work.
>=20
> [Med] We are not discussing about any explicit signaling her, Alan. We =
are discussing the implications on removing the MCP from the path based =
on SYN/ACK that will carry an MP_CAPABLE option!
> =20
> My hypothesis here is that an explicit signal is not required if you =
choose to sit on the path or not based on the presence of MP_CAPABLE in =
the SYN/ACK.
> [Med] The explicit signal is useful for not intercepting the initial =
subflow. That is, we don=E2=80=99t even enter the phase of waiting a =
SYN/ACK as the MCP does not see those.
>=20
>=20
> I can share other examples where problems arise when the proxy is
> blindly removed from the connection based on the presence of =
MP_CAPABLE in
> SYN/ACK.
>=20
> If it would help to clarify, please do! Since I don=E2=80=99t see a =
problem in
> (1), and whilst I can see a potential problem in (2) above, I am not =
sure
> how you are resolving it. Any other examples very welcome!
>=20
> [Med] Happily. You can consider a homenet architecture =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7368 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7368> where MPTCP-capable hosts may not =
be aware of the presence of multiple paths (see this simple topology).  =
The use of a proxy will to deterministically make use of the path =
diversity.
> =20
> Great! So the CPE can act as a MCP here, and optionally there could be =
a secondary MCP in the path to terminate paths for the far ends that do =
not support MPTCP (i.e. sitting on the path if the SYN/ACK does not =
contain MPTCP capability, and could advertise its own address in an =
ADD_ADDR). So why do you need an explicit signal in this case?
> [Med] It is useful to deterministically force a connection to be =
forwarded via a node that embeds the MCP. Classical dst-based forwarding =
may not always allow for that. In such case, the explicit mode can be =
enabled inside the user=E2=80=99s internal network. The signal may be =
useful for cases that do not require reverting MPTCP back to TCP in the =
providers networks (implicit mode). It is also useful if.=E2=80=A6one =
decides to use MPTCP connection to carry other protocol=E2=80=99s =
payload (UDP, for example) (as captured in the =E2=80=9CProtocol=E2=80=9D =
field of the MP_CONVERT MPTCP option).
> =20
> Regards,
> Alan


--Apple-Mail=_CBF254CC-4EB3-4388-B527-02A3ADEA7D23
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">OK got it - I think. I=E2=80=99ll summarise here and please =
correct me if my understanding is wrong.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Essentially, there are cases where the =
CPE=E2=80=99s secondary uplink does not have public IP access and thus =
needs to go via the MCP, but if the MCP has removed itself from the =
path, the secondary uplink won=E2=80=99t know about the MCP. You need a =
way to signal this information to a MCP over the primary path so it =
doesn=E2=80=99t remove itself.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Is this the only case where this signal =
is required?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Why=
 can=E2=80=99t these scenarios be handled with explicit mode, for =
example with using the DHCP option to pass down the MCP =
address?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Regards,</div><div class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
9 Nov 2016, at 14:12, <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">Re-,<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">Please see inline.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">Cheers,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier =
New';" class=3D"">Med<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Alan Ford [<a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mercredi 9 novembre 2016 =
14:39<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">=C3=80&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>BOUCADAIR Mohamed =
IMT/OLN<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mirja K=C3=BChlewind;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Objet&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [multipathtcp] =
potential MPTCP proxy charter item<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi Med,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Inline...<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 9 Nov 2016, at =
09:45,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">-----Message d'origine-----<br class=3D"">De&nbsp;: Alan Ford =
[<a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com</a>]<br=
 class=3D"">Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;: mercredi 9 novembre 2016 09:04<br =
class=3D"">=C3=80&nbsp;: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN<br class=3D"">Cc&nbsp;:=
 Mirja K=C3=BChlewind;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be</a>;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">Objet&nbsp;: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter =
item<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi Med,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thanks for providing some scenarios. Comments inline=E2=80=A6<b=
r class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 9 =
Nov 2016, at 06:41,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Hi Alan,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Below some examples to =
illustrate the problem I'm talking about.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(1)=
 Private IPv4 addresses or RFC6598 Shared Address space<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Let's consider this configuration (reusing the same topology =
in this<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">thread):<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">laptop &lt;-----------+<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| (Public IPv4@)<br =
class=3D"">smartphone &lt;----&gt; cpe &lt;----FIXED------&gt; mcp =
&lt;------&gt; server<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+<=
br class=3D"">cellular1 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;cellular2<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(Private IPv4)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In this =
example, the multipath CPEs gets a public IPv4 address from the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">fixed =
network and a private IPv4 address (or an address from RFC6598<br =
class=3D"">range) from the mobile network (cellular2).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Consider the server is MPTCP-capable.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The first subflow can be placed using the =
fixed line. Fine.<br class=3D"">The MCP will remove itself from the =
connection because the server is<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">MPTCP-capable. Cool!<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">The second subflow that will use cellaulr2 cannot be =
established because<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">of a basic forwarding problem: packets sourced with private =
IPv4 addresses<br class=3D"">cannot be forwarded over the public =
Internet.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Presumably cellular2 goes through =
a NAT in order to talk to anything in<br class=3D"">the public Internet. =
So it can be addressed to the server, and work like<br class=3D"">any =
other MPTCP subflow behind a NAT would work today.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">[Med] You are assuming that the same Internet APN will be =
used for the hybrid access. This is not a valid assumption. Some =
deployment are considering dedicated APN for this service to avoid =
additional public IPv4 address are assigned to this service and also to =
avoid overload the service function at the Gi interface with traffic =
that will be routed to the backbone of the same provider.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Regrettably I=E2=80=99m not familiar with all these =
3GPP terms here, however are you saying that cellular2 would not be able =
to have external, public, IP connectivity?<span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">[Med] Yes, because this is supposed to be a dedicated APN for =
hybrid access service. FWIW, you can refer to the concept of APN here<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6459#section-2.2" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6459#section-2.2</a>.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">If not, what=E2=80=99s =
the point of that interface? I was assuming that it would, and therefore =
would be able to talk direct to the server.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">[Med] That=E2=80=99s may be another APN: Internet APN.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">What am I missing? =
Why is this any different to today with a MPTCP end<br class=3D"">host =
with private IP addresses?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">[Med] The difference is =
that there is no NAT in the path before the MCP. The MCP has the role to =
use the IP address assigned by the fixed line when forwarding the =
secondary subflow.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I wasn=E2=80=99t talking before the MCP; in this scenario we =
are talking that the MCP gets out of the path<span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] I got that.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">- so what cellular2 =
needs to do is reach the<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i =
class=3D"">server</i>&nbsp;to open the second subflow.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">[Med] Cellular2 needs nothing! But MPTCP connections need the =
flows to be intercepted but the MCP. That is avoid withdrawing the MCP =
even if the remote server is MPTCP-capable. &nbsp;Please note that I=E2=80=
=99m not expressing my own preferences here, but I=E2=80=99m explaining =
what kind of problems may arise if we make invalid assumptions.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:=
 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">The smartphone does not have knowledge of cellular2, =
presumably=E2=80=A6 So the<br class=3D"">CPE would have to do something =
funky with the traffic to<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>split it over<br =
class=3D"">fixed and cellular2<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">[Med] This is a proxy function (MCP) in the =
CPE! I didn't focused on that part of the flow because there are other =
problems there. If the CPE does not embed an MCP, an MPTCP capable host =
(laptop of smartphone) may not be able to aggregate the resources of =
multiple access links. Going native will lead to less QoE compared to =
involving the MCP located in the CPE.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">- but it could still establish the subflow towards the<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">server on cellular2, without any =
knowledge of the smartphone or the<br class=3D"">network.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">(2) IPv6-only access =
network<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Lets' consider this =
configuration:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">laptop &lt;-----------+<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| (Public IPv4@<br =
class=3D"">smartphone &lt;----&gt; cpe &lt;----FIXED------&gt; mcp =
&lt;------&gt; server<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;IPv4-only<br class=3D"">cellular1 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;cellular2<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(IPv6-only prefix)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In =
this example, the multipath CPEs gets a public IPv4 address from the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">fixed =
network and an IPv6 prefix from the mobile network (cellular2).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Consider the server is =
MPTCP-capable, but IPv4-only.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The first =
subflow can be placed using the fixed line. Fine.<br class=3D"">The MCP =
will remove itself from the connection because the server is<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">MPTCP-capable. Cool!<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The =
second subflow that will use cellaulr2 cannot be added because the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">remote=
 server does not support IPv6.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">So in this case, if the MCP was on-path, it could be =
dual-stack and could<br class=3D"">add its IPv6 address to the =
subflows.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">[Med] Yes.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">If the MCP knew the =
connection was being proxied, would this help? Since<br class=3D"">as =
you=E2=80=99ve already defined, the MCP &lt;=E2=80=94&gt; server path =
would then be TCP. If<br class=3D"">the MCP stayed on-path, you could do =
multi path towards the MCP but then<br class=3D"">lose MPTCP =
capabilities to the server.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">[Med] The MCP can do the =
following:<br class=3D"">* It removes itself from the connection, then =
the connection will be e2e MPTCP... but only one access network will be =
used at the client side.<br class=3D"">* The MCP may decide the stay in =
the connection to glue two adjacent MPTCP connections. Doing so, we =
benefit from both MPTCP capabilities at the client and servier =
side.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">The exact behavior should IMHO be configurable.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">So the desire is for the CPE to make this choice, =
based on some internal logic, and without having a MCP address to =
explicitly communicate with?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] My take on this is =
to have configurable parameters that will be instructed by an operator. =
The MCP will behave according to those instructions. If an MCP is =
configured to be removed from a connection, it will coordinate its =
withdrawal accordingly.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Or alternatively, the MCP could always stay on-path but only =
add IPv6<br class=3D"">addresses if it somehow had knowledge that was =
required ba</span>sed on the<br class=3D"">source or destination =
address. Does it need to know by a flag? Would there<br =
class=3D"">actually be any harm by maintaining itself on the path =
anyway?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">[Med] I don't see a harm in doing so =
(see above), but those who want to have an e2e MPTCP connection may see =
something bad in that design. I though they wanted to completely remove =
the MCP from the path when both the client and server are =
MPTCP-capable.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">That would certainly be desirable, yes. But if not =
possible, then there=E2=80=99s not much harm with always sitting on the =
path - it=E2=80=99s a bit like a NAT.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s not<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">like it=E2=80=99s doing anything other =
than packet forwarding on the initial<br class=3D"">subflow, and just =
adds its IPv6 addresses to the initial exchanges in case<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">[Med] It needs to terminate the MPTCP connections, mange =
them, etc. This is exactly the MCP job.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">it would be useful - and if it receives =
traffic to the relevant<br class=3D"">address/port, it can start =
forwarding it to the far end too (possibly over<br class=3D"">a second =
IPv4 subflow). Again, no need or any explicit signalling to make<br =
class=3D"">this work.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">[Med] We are not discussing about any =
explicit signaling her, Alan. We are discussing the implications on =
removing the MCP from the path based on SYN/ACK that will carry an =
MP_CAPABLE option!<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">My hypothesis here is that an explicit signal is not =
required if you choose to sit on the path or not based on the presence =
of MP_CAPABLE in the SYN/ACK.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] The explicit signal =
is useful for not intercepting the initial subflow. That is, we don=E2=80=99=
t even enter the phase of waiting a SYN/ACK as the MCP does not see =
those.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">I can =
share other examples where problems arise when the proxy is<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">blindly removed from the connection based on the presence of =
MP_CAPABLE in<br class=3D"">SYN/ACK.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">If it =
would help to clarify, please do! Since I don=E2=80=99t see a problem =
in<br class=3D"">(1), and whilst I can see a potential problem in (2) =
above, I am not sure<br class=3D"">how you are resolving it. Any other =
examples very welcome!<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">[Med] Happily. You can =
consider a homenet architecture<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7368" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7368</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>where MPTCP-capable hosts =
may not be aware of the presence of multiple paths (see this simple =
topology). &nbsp;The use of a proxy will to deterministically make use =
of the path diversity.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Great! So the CPE can act as a MCP here, and =
optionally there could be a secondary MCP in the path to terminate paths =
for the far ends that do not support MPTCP (i.e. sitting on the path if =
the SYN/ACK does not contain MPTCP capability, and could advertise its =
own address in an ADD_ADDR). So why do you need an explicit signal in =
this case?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">[Med] It is useful to deterministically force =
a connection to be forwarded via a node that embeds the MCP. Classical =
dst-based forwarding may not always allow for that. In such case, the =
explicit mode can be enabled inside the user=E2=80=99s internal network. =
The signal may be useful for cases that do not require reverting MPTCP =
back to TCP in the providers networks (implicit mode). It is also useful =
if.=E2=80=A6one decides to use MPTCP connection to carry other =
protocol=E2=80=99s payload (UDP, for example) (as captured in the =
=E2=80=9CProtocol=E2=80=9D field of the MP_CONVERT MPTCP option).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Alan</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></di=
v><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_CBF254CC-4EB3-4388-B527-02A3ADEA7D23--


From nobody Wed Nov  9 10:41:46 2016
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To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>, "EARDLEY, Phil" <philip.eardley@bt.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
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Hi all,

if we =E2=80=9Aonly' talk about an update of 6897, I guess that could be =
even done with the current charter=E2=80=A6

Mirja


> Am 09.11.2016 um 14:38 schrieb Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>:
>=20
> That reads as if it is adding more advanced APIs over and above =
what=E2=80=99s in 6897. Given a lot of this work has already been =
covered in 6897, I think it would be useful to determine what exactly it =
is that is desired in addition. Is it an update to 6897 based on =
operational experience? I feel it should also be clear that this builds =
upon 6897 and not re-invent the wheel.
>=20
> Regards,
> Alan
>=20
>> On 9 Nov 2016, at 10:21, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
>>=20
>> Following the earlier discussion, there is support to add a charter =
item as follows:
>> <<RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for =
MPTCP-aware applications, including a set of socket operations. Now =
there is more experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will =
re-visit this work, and consider adding more advanced socket operations. =
The document will be Informational.>>
>> If you disagree with this being added, or suggest some mod to this =
item, please say.
>> Thanks
>> Phil & Yoshi
>> =20
>> From: cpaasch@apple.com [mailto:cpaasch@apple.com]=20
>> Sent: 31 July 2016 20:37
>> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com>
>> Cc: MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential new work item on MPTCP API
>> =20
>> =20
>> On Jul 26, 2016, at 7:35 AM, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
>> =20
>> Christoph,
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#section-5.3 is =E2=80=9CSockets =
Interface Extensions by the Basic MPTCP API=E2=80=9D
>> (also https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#appendix-A =E2=80=9CAppendix =
A. Requirements on a Future Advanced MPTCP API=E2=80=9D)
>> =20
>> Ok, I see. Fair enough. Extension to RFC6897 seems fine to me then.
>> =20
>> =20
>> Cheers,
>> Christoph
>>=20
>>=20
>> phil
>> =20
>> From: cpaasch@apple.com [mailto:cpaasch@apple.com]=20
>> Sent: 22 July 2016 09:48
>> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com>
>> Cc: MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential new work item on MPTCP API
>> =20
>> Hello,
>> =20
>> On Jul 21, 2016, at 5:43 PM, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
>> Yesterday Olivier presented about his & Benjamin=E2=80=99s recent =
work on MPTCP socket api. We didn=E2=80=99t have much discussion whether =
to add this to the charter. One comment was that any work should build =
on /reference RFC6897.
>> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-mptcp-4.pdf
>> Please can you comment whether you see this as a useful work item, or =
you think it shouldn=E2=80=99t be worked on, or how it should be adapted =
to something you think the WG should work on.
>> =20
>> yes, I think it is a very useful work item and am willing to =
contribute to this work.
>> =20
>> I'm not sure whether this can be seen as an update to 6897. I'm under =
the impression that 6897 takes a different approach, giving users a =
high-level overview of how using MPTCP might look like to an application =
that is talking to a TCP-socket (which happens to end up using MPTCP).
>> =20
>> Olivier's work seems to rather make MPTCP entirely explicit to the =
application. So, I think both works take a different approach.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> To help prompt the discussion, here=E2=80=99s a very first version of =
some possible charter text
>> RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for =
MPTCP-aware applications, including a set of socket operations. Now =
there is more experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will =
re-visit this work, and consider adding more advanced socket operations.
>> =20
>> RFC6897 was Informational =E2=80=93 would this new Milestone be =
Informational or Experimental?
>> =20
>> I think it should be Informational.
>> =20
>> =20
>> Christoph
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>> Thanks
>> phil
>> =20
>> Philip Eardley
>> Research and Innovation
>> This email contains BT information, which may be privileged or =
confidential. It's meant only for the individual(s) or entity named =
above. If you're not the intended recipient, note that disclosing, =
copying, distributing or using this information is prohibited. If you've =
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>=20
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
Thread-Index: AQHSOqkknemdljzUmEGiGID3gGUCC6DRwCCQ
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 06:48:29 +0000
Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAF0C2@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
References: <CCD1A987-0F3C-4775-8B0E-5232965E7E22@nokia.com> <CAO249ydpdtR53VBniDczSt4zj_kk32c2W_FoZKs2XED0Jzk7Jw@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9577B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <22907_1476946228_58086934_22907_5464_1_a7bca8d2-7656-4ff0-9f01-cf307f017148@OPEXCLILM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <57543A7A-1542-4C60-A5D3-E1658354BE5A@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <73a1c0dd64a843a5baa645d960c82886@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <b8bfd5c6-21eb-4c4f-879a-851c3a71792a@OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <56CE164A-9A62-4B57-9CFF-33DBD45BA8B2@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009D9CA84@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <85D52AE4-FE5F-4977-8927-6BDB72614D07@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAAA88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <D2630820-7586-4361-A626-3278F22C319C@gmail.com> <87270f12-59ee-3caf-eeef-685195b35dcd@uclouvain.be> <A5256E6E-E2BA-4763-AEF9-3CC50EB432A2@gmail.com> <7f9dd7ab-2e24-0319-b62f-fc4fa68b9568@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE3A6@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A95CD4E7-6A3B-4622-A818-03B10AD75D4D@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE743@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <06A031EE-5F50-4A0F-BBEC-9F2766C543FF@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE7DC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <53CD2649-4063-4EA8-8076-71990B2D2371@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DAE977@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <228C439B-4AA4-48A9-B78A-FE7CD9EEFB81@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 07:20:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential MPTCP proxy charter item
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Questions on https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode-09
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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:40:12 +0000
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Subject: [multipathtcp] Questions on https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode-09
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A few questions

Sections 4 & 5 discuss operation with a single-ended proxy, ie one end host=
 is MPTCP-enabled and the other end host is 'legacy' TCP. The figures and d=
iscussion seem to assume the MPTCP-enabled end host initiates the connectio=
n. Is the case also covered where the TCP end host initiates the connection=
?

In Sections 4 & 5, the MPTCP-enabled end host is assumed to know the addres=
s of the TCP end host. I assume this is through existing techniques. It may=
 mean that an operator has to be careful, for instance if they're doing cac=
hing at the edge of the network and the proxy is more central. from the poi=
nt of view of the path packets take, this seems the same drawback as if tun=
nelling is present - not sure if there could be unpleasant mptcp protocol i=
nteractions?

In section 6, two-ended MPTCP proxy (neither end host is MPTCP-enabled)

<<  If the downstream MCP is deployed on-path, it only terminates MPTCP
   connections that carry an empty MP_CONVERT option inside their SYN
   (i.e., no address is conveyed).  If the MCP receives a SYN segment
   that contains the MP_CAPABLE option but no MP_CONVERT option, it MUST
   forward the SYN to its final destination without any modification.
>>
Comment: I found the description confusing. Not sure what downstream and up=
stream mean, as the figure shows bi-directional communications. Off path an=
d on path I also found confusing.

If I get it right, on path means that you guarantee the first subflow goes =
through the proxy - what happens if it doesn't?

what benefit does having this extra on-path (implicit mode) mechanism bring=
? (I know there's been some discussion on this, is there a summary of the c=
onclusion?)

How does the first proxy know the address of the most appropriate second pr=
oxy (ie the proxy nearest the other end host)?

The mechanism mentions a token, is this a re-use of one of the existing tok=
ens in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mptcp-rfc6824bis/ or a n=
ew one?

Thanks
phil

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A few questions<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sections 4 &amp; 5 discuss operation with a single-e=
nded proxy, ie one end host is MPTCP-enabled and the other end host is &#82=
16;legacy&#8217; TCP. The figures and discussion seem to assume the MPTCP-e=
nabled end host initiates the connection. Is the case
 also covered where the TCP end host initiates the connection?<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In Sections 4 &amp; 5, the MPTCP-enabled end host is=
 assumed to know the address of the TCP end host. I assume this is through =
existing techniques. It may mean that an operator has to be careful, for in=
stance if they&#8217;re doing caching at the
 edge of the network and the proxy is more central. from the point of view =
of the path packets take, this seems the same drawback as if tunnelling is =
present &#8211; not sure if there could be unpleasant mptcp protocol intera=
ctions?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In section 6, two-ended MPTCP proxy (neither end hos=
t is MPTCP-enabled)<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always">&lt;&lt;<span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp; If=
 the downstream MCP is deployed on-path, it only terminates MPTCP<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp; connections that carry an empty MP_CONVERT opt=
ion inside their SYN<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp; (i.e., no address is conveyed).&nbsp; If the M=
CP receives a SYN segment<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp; that contains the MP_CAPABLE option but no MP_=
CONVERT option, it MUST<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">&nbsp;&nb=
sp; forward the SYN to its final destination without any modification.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">&gt;&gt;<=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Comment: =
I found the description confusing. Not sure what downstream and upstream me=
an, as the figure shows bi-directional communications.
 Off path and on path I also found confusing. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">If I get =
it right, on path means that you guarantee the first subflow goes through t=
he proxy &#8211; what happens if it doesn&#8217;t?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">what bene=
fit does having this extra on-path (implicit mode) mechanism bring? (I know=
 there&#8217;s been some discussion on this, is there
 a summary of the conclusion?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">How does =
the first proxy know the address of the most appropriate second proxy (ie t=
he proxy nearest the other end host)?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">The mecha=
nism mentions a token, is this a re-use of one of the existing tokens in
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mptcp-rfc6824bis/">h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mptcp-rfc6824bis/</a> or a new o=
ne?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Thanks<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">phil<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Thu Nov 10 04:54:12 2016
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Questions on https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode-09
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Questions on https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode-09
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Hi Phil,

Please see inline.

Cheers,
Med

De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de phil=
ip.eardley@bt.com
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 10 novembre 2016 12:40
=C0 : multipathtcp@ietf.org
Objet : [multipathtcp] Questions on https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bouca=
dair-mptcp-plain-mode-09

A few questions

Sections 4 & 5 discuss operation with a single-ended proxy, ie one end host=
 is MPTCP-enabled and the other end host is 'legacy' TCP. The figures and d=
iscussion seem to assume the MPTCP-enabled end host initiates the connectio=
n. Is the case also covered where the TCP end host initiates the connection=
?
[Med] Yes. We already have those details in -08 of the draft and some of th=
e details were presented in Buenos Aires meeting (see slide 14 of https://w=
ww.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-mptcp-1.pdf). We removed these =
details because we wanted to make sure that the base behaviour is well unde=
rstood.

In Sections 4 & 5, the MPTCP-enabled end host is assumed to know the addres=
s of the TCP end host. I assume this is through existing techniques.
[Med] Yes.

It may mean that an operator has to be careful, for instance if they're doi=
ng caching at the edge of the network and the proxy is more central. from t=
he point of view of the path packets take, this seems the same drawback as =
if tunnelling is present - not sure if there could be unpleasant mptcp prot=
ocol interactions?
[Med] Two comments here:

=B7         This is an issue for MPTCP in general: https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-07#section-3.9

=B7         The location of the MCP is deployment-specific. An operator tha=
t controls both access legs is likely to make sure that DNS service is appr=
opriately configured. An example would be to collocate the MCP with the BNG=
 function and mandate the use of the DNS server provisioned via the fixed l=
ine. Other approaches can be considered but this is really deployment-speci=
fic.

In section 6, two-ended MPTCP proxy (neither end host is MPTCP-enabled)

<<  If the downstream MCP is deployed on-path, it only terminates MPTCP
   connections that carry an empty MP_CONVERT option inside their SYN
   (i.e., no address is conveyed).  If the MCP receives a SYN segment
   that contains the MP_CAPABLE option but no MP_CONVERT option, it MUST
   forward the SYN to its final destination without any modification.
>>
Comment: I found the description confusing. Not sure what downstream and up=
stream mean, as the figure shows bi-directional communications.
[Med] Section 6 clearly indicates what is meant by Upstream and Downstream =
MCP

             Upstream        Downstream
        C <---> MCP <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> MCP <------------> =
S
                  +<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>+

   Legend:
        <=3D=3D=3D>: MPTCP leg
        <--->: TCP leg

   Figure 7: A Client interacts with a Server through an upstream and a
                  downstream Multipath Conversion Points

and

             Upstream                     Downstream
   +--+      +-----+                        +-----+      +--+
   |C1|      | MCP |                        | MCP |      |S1|
   +--+      +-----+                        +-----+      +--+
    C@1   uMCP@1 uMCP@2                       dMCP@       S@
...

Further, the use case section states the following:

=3D=3D

   In this use case, neither the Client nor the Server support MPTCP.

   Two MCPs are used as illustrated in Figure 2.  The upstream MCP is

   embedded in the CPE while the downstream MCP is located in the

   provider's network.  The CPE is attached to multiple access networks

   (e.g., xDSL and LTE).  The upstream MCP transparently terminates the

   TCP connections initiated by the Client and converts them into MPTCP

   connections.



                  Upstream                      Downstream

        +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+

        |H1|      | MCP |                         | MCP |      |RM|

        +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+

         |           |                              |           |

         |<---TCP--->|<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DMPTCP Leg=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>|<---TCP--->|

         |           |                              |           |



            Figure 2: Network-assisted MPTCP (CPE-based Model)

=3D=3D

Off path and on path I also found confusing.
[Med] Fair comment. We thought that the reader is familiar with the deploym=
ent models in: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-consi=
derations-00.html#section-5.2

If I get it right, on path means that you guarantee the first subflow goes =
through the proxy
[Med] Yes. For example, the proxy is on the default forwarding path of a pr=
imary link.

- what happens if it doesn't?
[Med] Network-assisted MPTCP connections will fail. Note that if the primar=
y link is unavailable for some reason, (1) the service cannot be provided t=
hrough the secondary link in situations where only private IPv4 addresses a=
re assigned on the secondary link or (2) some communications may not be est=
ablished if only IPv6 prefixes are assigned in that link.

what benefit does having this extra on-path (implicit mode) mechanism bring=
? (I know there's been some discussion on this, is there a summary of the c=
onclusion?)
[Med] It may allow for quick network-assisted MPTCP deployments if a provid=
er does not want to wait for the MP_CONVERT to be fully endorsed. Native MP=
TCP connections will be broken because the MCP will systematically revert t=
hem to TCP. The support MP_CONVERT will solve that problem for the implicit=
 mode. BTW, as an editor of the document, I'm trying to avoid mandating exp=
licit or implicit as this should be the responsibility of each operator.

How does the first proxy know the address of the most appropriate second pr=
oxy (ie the proxy nearest the other end host)?
[Med] This is done by means of DHCP, for instance. Please refer to Section =
6.2.2:


   In this section, we assume that the upstream MCP has been configured

   with one address of the downstream MCP.  This address can be

   configured statically, dynamically distributed by means of a DHCP

   option [I-D.boucadair-mptcp-dhc<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucad=
air-mptcp-plain-mode-09#ref-I-D.boucadair-mptcp-dhc>] or by any other means=
 that are

   outside the scope of this document.


The mechanism mentions a token, is this a re-use of one of the existing tok=
ens in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mptcp-rfc6824bis/ or a n=
ew one?
[Med] This is the token defined in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824:

   Token:  A locally unique identifier given to a multipath connection
      by a host.  May also be referred to as a "Connection ID".

Thanks
[Med] Thank you.
phil

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Phil,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Please see inline.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">De&nbsp;:</sp=
an></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR"> multipathtcp [mailto:multipatht=
cp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> philip.eardley@bt.com<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 10 novembre 2016 12:40<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> multipathtcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> [multipathtcp] Questions on https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode-09<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">A few questions<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Sections 4 &amp; 5 discuss oper=
ation with a single-ended proxy, ie one end host is MPTCP-enabled and the o=
ther end host is &#8216;legacy&#8217; TCP. The figures and discussion seem =
to assume the MPTCP-enabled end host initiates the connection.
 Is the case also covered where the TCP end host initiates the connection?<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Yes. We already have thos=
e details in -08 of the draft and some of the details were presented in Bue=
nos Aires meeting (see slide 14 of
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-mptcp-1.pdf=
">https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-mptcp-1.pdf</a>). We=
 removed these details because we wanted to make sure that the base behavio=
ur is well understood. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">In Sections 4 &amp; 5, the MPTC=
P-enabled end host is assumed to know the address of the TCP end host. I as=
sume this is through existing techniques.<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Yes.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">It may mean that an operator ha=
s to be careful, for instance if they&#8217;re doing caching at the edge of=
 the network and the proxy is more central. from the point of view of the p=
ath packets take, this seems the same drawback
 as if tunnelling is present &#8211; not sure if there could be unpleasant =
mptcp protocol interactions?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Two comments here:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">This is an issue for MP=
TCP in general:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-07#secti=
on-3.9">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-07#section-3.9</a><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">The location of the MCP=
 is deployment-specific. An operator that controls both access legs is like=
ly to make sure that DNS service is appropriately
 configured. An example would be to collocate the MCP with the BNG function=
 and mandate the use of the DNS server provisioned via the fixed line. Othe=
r approaches can be considered but this is really deployment-specific.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">In section 6, two-ended MPTCP p=
roxy (neither end host is MPTCP-enabled)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&lt;&lt;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp; If the downstream MCP is deployed on-path, it onl=
y terminates MPTCP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp; connections that carry an empty MP_CONVERT opt=
ion inside their SYN<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp; (i.e., no address is conveyed).&nbsp; If the M=
CP receives a SYN segment<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp; that contains the MP_CAPABLE option but no MP_=
CONVERT option, it MUST<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">&nbsp;&nbsp; forward the SYN to its final destination without any modifi=
cation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">Comment: I found the description confusing. Not sure what downstream and=
 upstream mean, as the figure shows bi-directional communications.<span sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] S=
ection 6 clearly indicates what is meant by Upstream and Downstream MCP<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Upstream&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Downstream<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; C &lt;---&gt; MCP &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D&gt; MCP &lt;------------&gt; S<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; &#43;&lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt;&#43;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; Legend=
:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;=3D=3D=3D&gt;: MPTCP leg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---&gt;: TCP leg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; Figure=
 7: A Client interacts with a Server through an upstream and a<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;=
mso-fareast-language:FR">downstream Multipath Conversion Points<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">and
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Upstream&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Downstream<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-=
-&#43;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-----&#43;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-----&#43;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--&#43;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; |C1|&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | MCP |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | MCP |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |S1|<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-=
-&#43;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-----&#43;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&#43;-----&#43;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--&#43;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
C@1&nbsp;&nbsp; uMCP@1 uMCP@2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; dMCP@&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S@<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">&#82=
30;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Furt=
her, the use case section states the following:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">=3D=
=3D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; In this use case, neither the Client=
 nor the Server support MPTCP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; Two MCPs are used as illustrated in =
Figure 2.&nbsp; The upstream MCP is<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; embedded in the CPE while the downst=
ream MCP is located in the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; provider's network.&nbsp; The CPE is=
 attached to multiple access networks<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; (e.g., xDSL and LTE).&nbsp; The upst=
ream MCP transparently terminates the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; TCP connections initiated by the Cli=
ent and converts them into MPTCP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; connections.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Upstream&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Downstream<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-=
-&#43;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-----&#43;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-----&#43;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&#43;--&#43;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |H1|&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | MCP |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | MCP |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |RM|<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-=
-&#43;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-----&#43;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-----&#43;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--&#43;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&lt;---TCP---&gt;|&lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DMPTCP Leg=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt;|&lt;---TCP---&gt;|<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Figure 2: Network-assisted MPTCP (CPE-based Model)<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">=3D=
=3D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">Off path and on path I also found confusing.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] F=
air comment. We thought that the reader is familiar with the deployment mod=
els in:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considera=
tions-00.html#section-5.2">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerations-00.ht=
ml#section-5.2</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">If I get it right, on path means that you guarantee the first subflow go=
es through the proxy<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] Y=
es. For example, the proxy is on the default forwarding path of a primary l=
ink.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">&#8211; what happens if it doesn&#8217;t?<span style=3D"color:black"><o:=
p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] N=
etwork-assisted MPTCP connections will fail. Note that if the primary link =
is unavailable for some reason, (1) the service
 cannot be provided through the secondary link in situations where only pri=
vate IPv4 addresses are assigned on the secondary link or (2) some communic=
ations may not be established if only IPv6 prefixes are assigned in that li=
nk.
</span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">what benefit does having this extra on-path (implicit mode) mechanism br=
ing? (I know there&#8217;s been some discussion on this, is there
 a summary of the conclusion?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] I=
t may allow for quick network-assisted MPTCP deployments if a provider does=
 not want to wait for the MP_CONVERT to be fully
 endorsed. Native MPTCP connections will be broken because the MCP will sys=
tematically revert them to TCP. The support MP_CONVERT will solve that prob=
lem for the implicit mode. BTW, as an editor of the document, I&#8217;m try=
ing to avoid mandating explicit or implicit
 as this should be the responsibility of each operator. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">How does the first proxy know the address of the most appropriate second=
 proxy (ie the proxy nearest the other end host)?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] T=
his is done by means of DHCP, for instance. Please refer to Section 6.2.2:<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp; &nbsp;In this section, we assume that the =
upstream MCP has been configured<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; with one address of the downstream M=
CP.&nbsp; This address can be<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; configured statically, dynamically d=
istributed by means of a DHCP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; option [</span><a href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode-09#ref-I-D.boucadair-mpt=
cp-dhc"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I-D.boucadair-mptcp-dhc</span></a><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">] or by any other means that are<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; outside the scope of this document.<=
o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">The mechanism mentions a token, is this a re-use of one of the existing =
tokens in
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mptcp-rfc6824bis/">h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mptcp-rfc6824bis/</a> or a new o=
ne?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] T=
his is the token defined in
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/rfc6824</a>:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; Token:=
&nbsp; A locally unique identifier given to a multipath connection<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; by a host.&nbsp; May also be referred to as a &quot;Connection =
ID&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] T=
hank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">phil<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Subject: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Hi,
Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active discus=
sion is reaching some common understanding?


We're trying to work out what a work item might look like, so would like to=
 understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario, & what c=
ommon agreements we'd assume & restrictions on how the solution works. This=
 seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we'd like discussion on t=
hese points to avoid getting into the fine details of one particular existi=
ng proposal.

What we'd appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions /understandings a=
re about:

*         The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the addr=
ess of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address of th=
e 'legacy' host it wants to communicate with)

*         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol'=
s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes

*         If we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option

*         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol'=
s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/rfc6824#section-4

*         If any impact is already envisaged on TCP's semantics, or any mod=
s are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc

*         If any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport pr=
otocol's semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?)

*         Anything else that you think is needed in order to frame the work=
 item

It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie =
where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, ie where neit=
her host is MPTCP-enabled).

This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be "none" - we'=
ll end up with just a short paragraph or a few bullets in the charter.

We'd also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and I=
ESG will probably want the main input on this.

Thanks
Phil & Yoshi

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like=
 the very active discussion is reaching some common understanding?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">We&#8217;re trying to work out what a work item m=
ight look like, so would like to understand what assumptions we would make,=
 eg about the scenario, &amp; what common agreements we&#8217;d assume &amp=
; restrictions on how the solution works. This seems important
 to frame work by WG. If possible we&#8217;d like discussion on these point=
s to avoid getting into the fine details of one particular existing proposa=
l.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What we&#8217;d appreciate is a summary of what the =
assumptions /understandings are about:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enable=
d host knows the address of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it kn=
ows the address of the &#8216;legacy&#8217; host it wants to communicate wi=
th)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>If any impact is already envisaged on the cu=
rrent MPTCP protocol&#8217;s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>If we can agree that the solution is based o=
n a new MPTCP option
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>If any impact is already envisaged on the cu=
rrent MPTCP protocol&#8217;s semantics (other than the new option) eg in te=
rms of
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4"><span style=3D"co=
lor:windowtext">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4</span></a> &n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>If any impact is already envisaged on TCP&#8=
217;s semantics, or any mods are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour=
, etc<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>If any impact is already envisaged on other =
existing transport protocol&#8217;s semantics (presuming people still would=
 like non-TCP in scope?)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Anything else that you think is needed in or=
der to frame the work item<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (=
single-ended proxy, ie where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-end=
ed proxy, ie where neither host is MPTCP-enabled).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This may seem like a long list, but most of the answ=
ers can be &#8220;none&#8221; &#8211; we&#8217;ll end up with just a short =
paragraph or a few bullets in the charter.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We&#8217;d also have to work out interactions with n=
on-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and IESG will probably want the main input on this.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil &amp; Yoshi<o:p></o:p></p>
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From nobody Thu Nov 10 11:20:44 2016
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Questions on https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode-09
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Hi Med,

Thanks for the clarification. So, in my understanding,
off-path/on-path concept is like the followings.  (please point out if
I miss something)

on-path (implicit mode) ... The client doesn't need to know the
presence of MCP. The adpp just specifies the server address for the
end point of mptcp connection.

off-path (explicit mode) ... The client needs to know the presence of
MCP. The app needs to use MCP's address for the destination. It also
need to get MCP's address (via DHCP or something else) and tells mptcp
stack to put it in MP_CONVERT option (via API?)

In this case, I think the off-path clients need to know that they are
off-path nodes and need to rely on MCP *before* communication starts.
But, I'm not very sure how they get such knowledge. Even if they get a
MCP address via DHCP, there might be possibility that the MCP is
actually on-path.

Thanks,
--
Yoshi








On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 4:54 AM,  <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
> Hi Phil,
>
>
>
> Please see inline.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de
> philip.eardley@bt.com
> Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 10 novembre 2016 12:40
> =C3=80 : multipathtcp@ietf.org
> Objet : [multipathtcp] Questions on
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode-09
>
>
>
> A few questions
>
>
>
> Sections 4 & 5 discuss operation with a single-ended proxy, ie one end ho=
st
> is MPTCP-enabled and the other end host is =E2=80=98legacy=E2=80=99 TCP. =
The figures and
> discussion seem to assume the MPTCP-enabled end host initiates the
> connection. Is the case also covered where the TCP end host initiates the
> connection?
>
> [Med] Yes. We already have those details in -08 of the draft and some of =
the
> details were presented in Buenos Aires meeting (see slide 14 of
> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-mptcp-1.pdf). We
> removed these details because we wanted to make sure that the base behavi=
our
> is well understood.
>
>
>
> In Sections 4 & 5, the MPTCP-enabled end host is assumed to know the addr=
ess
> of the TCP end host. I assume this is through existing techniques.
>
> [Med] Yes.
>
>
>
> It may mean that an operator has to be careful, for instance if they=E2=
=80=99re
> doing caching at the edge of the network and the proxy is more central. f=
rom
> the point of view of the path packets take, this seems the same drawback =
as
> if tunnelling is present =E2=80=93 not sure if there could be unpleasant =
mptcp
> protocol interactions?
>
> [Med] Two comments here:
>
> =C2=B7         This is an issue for MPTCP in general:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mptcp-experience-07#section-3.9
>
> =C2=B7         The location of the MCP is deployment-specific. An operato=
r that
> controls both access legs is likely to make sure that DNS service is
> appropriately configured. An example would be to collocate the MCP with t=
he
> BNG function and mandate the use of the DNS server provisioned via the fi=
xed
> line. Other approaches can be considered but this is really
> deployment-specific.
>
>
>
> In section 6, two-ended MPTCP proxy (neither end host is MPTCP-enabled)
>
> <<  If the downstream MCP is deployed on-path, it only terminates MPTCP
>
>    connections that carry an empty MP_CONVERT option inside their SYN
>
>    (i.e., no address is conveyed).  If the MCP receives a SYN segment
>
>    that contains the MP_CAPABLE option but no MP_CONVERT option, it MUST
>
>    forward the SYN to its final destination without any modification.
>
>>>
>
> Comment: I found the description confusing. Not sure what downstream and
> upstream mean, as the figure shows bi-directional communications.
>
> [Med] Section 6 clearly indicates what is meant by Upstream and Downstrea=
m
> MCP
>
>
>
>              Upstream        Downstream
>
>         C <---> MCP <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> MCP <------------=
> S
>
>                   +<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>+
>
>
>
>    Legend:
>
>         <=3D=3D=3D>: MPTCP leg
>
>         <--->: TCP leg
>
>
>
>    Figure 7: A Client interacts with a Server through an upstream and a
>
>                   downstream Multipath Conversion Points
>
>
>
> and
>
>
>
>              Upstream                     Downstream
>
>    +--+      +-----+                        +-----+      +--+
>
>    |C1|      | MCP |                        | MCP |      |S1|
>
>    +--+      +-----+                        +-----+      +--+
>
>     C@1   uMCP@1 uMCP@2                       dMCP@       S@
>
> =E2=80=A6
>
>
>
> Further, the use case section states the following:
>
>
>
> =3D=3D
>
>    In this use case, neither the Client nor the Server support MPTCP.
>
>    Two MCPs are used as illustrated in Figure 2.  The upstream MCP is
>
>    embedded in the CPE while the downstream MCP is located in the
>
>    provider's network.  The CPE is attached to multiple access networks
>
>    (e.g., xDSL and LTE).  The upstream MCP transparently terminates the
>
>    TCP connections initiated by the Client and converts them into MPTCP
>
>    connections.
>
>
>
>                   Upstream                      Downstream
>
>         +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>
>         |H1|      | MCP |                         | MCP |      |RM|
>
>         +--+      +-----+                         +-----+      +--+
>
>          |           |                              |           |
>
>          |<---TCP--->|<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DMPTCP Leg=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>|<---TCP--->|
>
>          |           |                              |           |
>
>
>
>             Figure 2: Network-assisted MPTCP (CPE-based Model)
>
>
>
> =3D=3D
>
>
>
> Off path and on path I also found confusing.
>
> [Med] Fair comment. We thought that the reader is familiar with the
> deployment models in:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerations-00.=
html#section-5.2
>
>
>
> If I get it right, on path means that you guarantee the first subflow goe=
s
> through the proxy
>
> [Med] Yes. For example, the proxy is on the default forwarding path of a
> primary link.
>
>
>
> =E2=80=93 what happens if it doesn=E2=80=99t?
>
> [Med] Network-assisted MPTCP connections will fail. Note that if the prim=
ary
> link is unavailable for some reason, (1) the service cannot be provided
> through the secondary link in situations where only private IPv4 addresse=
s
> are assigned on the secondary link or (2) some communications may not be
> established if only IPv6 prefixes are assigned in that link.
>
>
>
> what benefit does having this extra on-path (implicit mode) mechanism bri=
ng?
> (I know there=E2=80=99s been some discussion on this, is there a summary =
of the
> conclusion?)
>
> [Med] It may allow for quick network-assisted MPTCP deployments if a
> provider does not want to wait for the MP_CONVERT to be fully endorsed.
> Native MPTCP connections will be broken because the MCP will systematical=
ly
> revert them to TCP. The support MP_CONVERT will solve that problem for th=
e
> implicit mode. BTW, as an editor of the document, I=E2=80=99m trying to a=
void
> mandating explicit or implicit as this should be the responsibility of ea=
ch
> operator.
>
>
>
> How does the first proxy know the address of the most appropriate second
> proxy (ie the proxy nearest the other end host)?
>
> [Med] This is done by means of DHCP, for instance. Please refer to Sectio=
n
> 6.2.2:
>
>
>
>    In this section, we assume that the upstream MCP has been configured
>
>    with one address of the downstream MCP.  This address can be
>
>    configured statically, dynamically distributed by means of a DHCP
>
>    option [I-D.boucadair-mptcp-dhc] or by any other means that are
>
>    outside the scope of this document.
>
>
>
>
>
> The mechanism mentions a token, is this a re-use of one of the existing
> tokens in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mptcp-rfc6824bis/ o=
r a
> new one?
>
> [Med] This is the token defined in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824:
>
>
>
>    Token:  A locally unique identifier given to a multipath connection
>
>       by a host.  May also be referred to as a "Connection ID".
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> [Med] Thank you.
>
> phil
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
>


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From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Questions on https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode-09
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Phil,

Let me complement some of the answers provided by Med

> If I get it right, on path means that you guarantee the first subflow
> goes through the proxy – what happens if it doesn’t?

yes, the underlying network guarantees this. Otherwise, there will be a 
fallback to regular TCP.

>
> what benefit does having this extra on-path (implicit mode) mechanism
> bring? (I know there’s been some discussion on this, is there a summary
> of the conclusion?)
>

The main benefit that network operator see with an on-path mechanism is 
that the addresses that are used by the clients are visible to the 
servers. This simplifies operations since addresses do not change inside 
the network. If the operator uses Netflow/IPFix, needs to perform LI, or 
debug problems, he sees packets with the correct source and destination 
addresses.


Olivier


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Subject: [multipathtcp] Single-ended Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Phil,
>
> Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active
> discussion is reaching some common understanding?

Let try a first answer to your questions for the single-ended Multipath 
TCP proxy work item.
I'll send my answers to the double-ended proxy in a separate email.
>
> What we’d appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions
> /understandings are about:
>
> ·         The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the
> address of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the
> address of the ‘legacy’ host it wants to communicate with)


The typical use case is a smartphone that wants to combine its WiFi and 
cellular access networks to reach a server that does not (yet) support 
Multipath TCP.

> ·         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP
> protocol’s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes

I don't think so but this will be a function of the mechanisms that we 
insert in MPTCP.

> ·         If we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option

For this use case, given the mobility of the smartphone, it is unlikely 
that the Proxy will reside on path.
The key issue is the ability to signal addresses (mainly the server 
address) to the Proxy without adding delay to the connection 
establishment. This can be achieved by either :
- adding options to the SYN (but we have to cope with the limited size 
of the TCP options field in the MPTCP SYN)
- adding information in the payload of the SYN, this information would 
likely be encoded in a TLV format like the TCP/MPTCP options and should 
be compatible with the utilisation of TFO.

> ·         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP
> protocol’s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4

I don't think so. If we end up putting TLV information in the payload of 
the SYN, some parts of the SYN payload will not belong to the bytestream 
and this might affect the protocol semantics.
>
> ·         If any impact is already envisaged on TCP’s semantics, or any
> mods are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc

I don't think so.

> ·         If any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport
> protocol’s semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?)

I'm not personally convinced by the benefits of transporting an non 
bytestream transport protocol into TCP.

> ·         Anything else that you think is needed in order to frame the
> work item
>

The key requirement is that the creation of an MPTCP connection through 
a Proxy does not require additional rtts.


Olivier


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To: philip.eardley@bt.com, multipathtcp@ietf.org
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: [multipathtcp] Dual-ended Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Phil,
>
> Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active
> discussion is reaching some common understanding?
>

Please find some comments related to the dual-ended proxy Multipath TCP 
Proxy use case. In this use case, there are two proxies :
- an on-path upstream proxy that resides typically in the CPE
- a downstream proxy. This proxy may be on-path or off-path. My answers 
relate to the off-path proxy unless otherwise noted

>
>
> What we’d appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions
> /understandings are about:
>
> ·         The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the
> address of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the
> address of the ‘legacy’ host it wants to communicate with)

The scenario is a laptop that does not support MPTCP connected to a CPE 
and the CPE is itself connected to two access networks (typically xDSL 
and cellular). The upstream proxy is included in the CPE. The downstream 
CPE is typically installed inside the network of the access provider.

>
> ·         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP
> protocol’s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes

I don't think so. If the proxies are deployed by a network operator, it 
is possible to ensure that there are no middleboxes that mess with MPTCP 
on the paths between the two proxies.

>
> ·         If we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option

The key issue is the ability to signal addresses (mainly the server 
address) to the Proxy without adding delay to the connection 
establishment. This can be achieved by either :
- adding options to the SYN (but we have to cope with the limited size 
of the TCP options field in the MPTCP SYN)
- adding information in the payload of the SYN, this information would 
likely be encoded in a TLV format like the TCP/MPTCP options and should 
be compatible with the utilisation of TFO.
>
> ·         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP
> protocol’s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4


I don't think so. If we end up putting TLV information in the payload of 
the SYN, some parts of the SYN payload will not belong to the bytestream 
and this might affect the protocol semantics.
>
> ·         If any impact is already envisaged on TCP’s semantics, or any
> mods are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc

I don't think so.


> ·         If any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport
> protocol’s semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?)

I'm not personally convinced by the benefits of transporting an non 
bytestream transport protocol into TCP.

> ·         Anything else that you think is needed in order to frame the
> work item
>

This use case is considered by various network operators. They are in a 
position to ensure that there is no middlebox between the two proxies. 
We should take this fact into account by designing a solution that is 
optimised for the case where there is no middlebox on the path. In this 
use case, there are a large number of MPTCP connections between the 
upstream and downstream proxies. We are not in the same situation as a 
host trying to establish a single MPTCP connection towards a random 
server over a random path. We should leverage this knowledge in our design.

As for the single-ended proxy, the key requirement is that the creation 
of an MPTCP connection through a Proxy does not require additional rtts.


Olivier


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On 11/11/2016 10:01 AM, Olivier Bonaventure wrote:
> The key issue is the ability to signal addresses (mainly the server
> address) to the Proxy without adding delay to the connection
> establishment. This can be achieved by either :
> - adding options to the SYN (but we have to cope with the limited size
> of the TCP options field in the MPTCP SYN)
> - adding information in the payload of the SYN, this information would
> likely be encoded in a TLV format like the TCP/MPTCP options and
> should be compatible with the utilisation of TFO. 

> ...
>
> I don't think so. If we end up putting TLV information in the payload
> of the SYN, some parts of the SYN payload will not belong to the
> bytestream and this might affect the protocol semantics.

If you put options in the SYN payload, you don't have TCP anymore. TCP
allows the user to pick source and dest ports and addresses. There's no
way to fallback without resetting the pending SYN and that needs to be
followed by a wait (pref a TIME-WAIT equivalent). It's not TCP's
perogative to retry the connection with a new source port.

That was known when MPTCP was created. It was known when TCPM explored
the variety of alternatives to extending the SYN (including sending both
new and legacy SYNs at the same time, send a SYN and an "out of band"
message (EOS-SYN) and 4-way handshake). If you think you have an
approach that works, please review these docs (I'm updating EOS-SYN  and
the non-SYN EDO extension with more detail once the queue opens). Let's
not replicate that discussion here.

Joe

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    <p><br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/11/2016 10:01 AM, Olivier
      Bonaventure wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5aef607f-07a0-ee92-e796-856e51ec29e1@uclouvain.be"
      type="cite">The key issue is the ability to signal addresses
      (mainly the server address) to the Proxy without adding delay to
      the connection establishment. This can be achieved by either :
      <br>
      - adding options to the SYN (but we have to cope with the limited
      size of the TCP options field in the MPTCP SYN)
      <br>
      - adding information in the payload of the SYN, this information
      would likely be encoded in a TLV format like the TCP/MPTCP options
      and should be compatible with the utilisation of TFO.
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:5aef607f-07a0-ee92-e796-856e51ec29e1@uclouvain.be"
      type="cite">...<a moz-do-not-send="true"
        class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
        href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4"></a> <br>
      <br>
      I don't think so. If we end up putting TLV information in the
      payload of the SYN, some parts of the SYN payload will not belong
      to the bytestream and this might affect the protocol semantics.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    If you put options in the SYN payload, you don't have TCP anymore.
    TCP allows the user to pick source and dest ports and addresses.
    There's no way to fallback without resetting the pending SYN and
    that needs to be followed by a wait (pref a TIME-WAIT equivalent).
    It's not TCP's perogative to retry the connection with a new source
    port.<br>
    <br>
    That was known when MPTCP was created. It was known when TCPM
    explored the variety of alternatives to extending the SYN (including
    sending both new and legacy SYNs at the same time, send a SYN and an
    "out of band" message (EOS-SYN) and 4-way handshake). If you think
    you have an approach that works, please review these docs (I'm
    updating EOS-SYN  and the non-SYN EDO extension with more detail
    once the queue opens). Let's not replicate that discussion here.<br>
    <br>
    Joe<br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------78902C705F6D7E3C93D8864B--


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To: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>, philip.eardley@bt.com, multipathtcp@ietf.org
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Single-ended Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Joe,
>
> On 11/11/2016 10:01 AM, Olivier Bonaventure wrote:
>> The key issue is the ability to signal addresses (mainly the server
>> address) to the Proxy without adding delay to the connection
>> establishment. This can be achieved by either :
>> - adding options to the SYN (but we have to cope with the limited size
>> of the TCP options field in the MPTCP SYN)
>> - adding information in the payload of the SYN, this information would
>> likely be encoded in a TLV format like the TCP/MPTCP options and
>> should be compatible with the utilisation of TFO.


With the words TLV-format, I wanted to report some of the suggestions 
made on the list, namely to explore the possiblity of placing the proxy 
information as a shim application that exchanged the proxy information 
inside the SYN and SYN+ACK and leaves all the other data for the normal 
bytestream. It might work, but I'd need some time to think about it in 
details.
>
>> ...
>>
>> I don't think so. If we end up putting TLV information in the payload
>> of the SYN, some parts of the SYN payload will not belong to the
>> bytestream and this might affect the protocol semantics.
>
> If you put options in the SYN payload, you don't have TCP anymore.  TCP
> allows the user to pick source and dest ports and addresses. There's no
> way to fallback without resetting the pending SYN and that needs to be
> followed by a wait (pref a TIME-WAIT equivalent).

With the single-ended proxy, we are in a specific use case.

The application issues connect(server, port)

The stack does connect(proxy, port) and informs the proxy of the server 
address and port number. The proxy then connects the server and port.
Since the client will issue many connections towards this proxy, we can 
define a test to verify that there is no middlebox on the path between 
the client and the proxy (and fallback to regular TCP if a problem is 
detected).

If the SYN to the proxy fails, a possible fallback is to send a SYN 
directly to the server. This does not require any timewait since the 
connection is towards a different destination address.

 > It's not TCP's
 > perogative to retry the connection with a new source port.

I'm not suggesting that.
>
> That was known when MPTCP was created. It was known when TCPM explored
> the variety of alternatives to extending the SYN (including sending both
> new and legacy SYNs at the same time, send a SYN and an "out of band"
> message (EOS-SYN) and 4-way handshake). If you think you have an
> approach that works, please review these docs (I'm updating EOS-SYN  and
> the non-SYN EDO extension with more detail once the queue opens). Let's
> not replicate that discussion here.

I've already read several versions of these docs and would be ready to 
read and review the next ones.


Olivier


From nobody Fri Nov 11 12:22:18 2016
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Single-ended Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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On 11/11/2016 12:08 PM, Olivier Bonaventure wrote:
> Joe,
>>
>> On 11/11/2016 10:01 AM, Olivier Bonaventure wrote:
>>> The key issue is the ability to signal addresses (mainly the server
>>> address) to the Proxy without adding delay to the connection
>>> establishment. This can be achieved by either :
>>> - adding options to the SYN (but we have to cope with the limited size
>>> of the TCP options field in the MPTCP SYN)
>>> - adding information in the payload of the SYN, this information would
>>> likely be encoded in a TLV format like the TCP/MPTCP options and
>>> should be compatible with the utilisation of TFO.
>
>
> With the words TLV-format, I wanted to report some of the suggestions
> made on the list, namely to explore the possiblity of placing the
> proxy information as a shim application that exchanged the proxy
> information inside the SYN and SYN+ACK and leaves all the other data
> for the normal bytestream. It might work, but I'd need some time to
> think about it in details.

This is not backward compatible with legacy TCP. All information in the
TCP SYN can be kept by the legacy server and can thus pollute the data
stream of the legacy connection. TCPM already explored this.


>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I don't think so. If we end up putting TLV information in the payload
>>> of the SYN, some parts of the SYN payload will not belong to the
>>> bytestream and this might affect the protocol semantics.
>>
>> If you put options in the SYN payload, you don't have TCP anymore.  TCP
>> allows the user to pick source and dest ports and addresses. There's no
>> way to fallback without resetting the pending SYN and that needs to be
>> followed by a wait (pref a TIME-WAIT equivalent).
>
> With the single-ended proxy, we are in a specific use case.
>
> The application issues connect(server, port)
>
> The stack does connect(proxy, port) and informs the proxy of the
> server address and port number. The proxy then connects the server and
> port.
> Since the client will issue many connections towards this proxy, we
> can define a test to verify that there is no middlebox on the path
> between the client and the proxy (and fallback to regular TCP if a
> problem is detected).

None of this matters... what matters is the legacy.
>
> If the SYN to the proxy fails, a possible fallback is to send a SYN
> directly to the server. This does not require any timewait since the
> connection is towards a different destination address.

You're describing the behavior of an application (to TCP). The problem
is that you want to create a new TCP, one where an option that isn't
reflected in the SYN-ACK results in a failed connection. Having any
option have this property is (by definition) breaking backward
compatibility when that option is used.

The problem with such "MUST use" options is that there is no way to
*ensure* that this capability is used only by a particular application
for a particular use.

Joe


From nobody Fri Nov 11 15:39:39 2016
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Subject: [multipathtcp] Slides for mptcp meeting in Seoul
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--001a1140fc1083e00605410f00a2
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Hello presenters for Seoul meeting

Please make sure to send your slide by ** Sunday (11/13) noon ** to chairs.

The current agenda is listed on the following link.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/97/agenda/mptcp/

Thanks,
--
Yoshi & Phil

--001a1140fc1083e00605410f00a2
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello presenters for Seoul meeting<br><br>Please make sure=
 to send your slide by ** Sunday (11/13) noon ** to chairs.<br><br>The curr=
ent agenda is listed on the following link.<br><a href=3D"https://datatrack=
er.ietf.org/meeting/97/agenda/mptcp/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/=
97/agenda/mptcp/</a><br><br>Thanks,<div>--</div><div>Yoshi &amp; Phil</div>=
</div>

--001a1140fc1083e00605410f00a2--


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
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Hello,

On 09/11/16 - 10:21:42, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
> Following the earlier discussion, there is support to add a charter item as follows:
> <<RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for MPTCP-aware applications, including a set of socket operations. Now there is more experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will re-visit this work, and consider adding more advanced socket operations. The document will be Informational.>>
> If you disagree with this being added, or suggest some mod to this item, please say.

I support this work as well.

But, I also agree with Mirja's comment that "socket operations" is not a
well-defined term. I guess, what has been meant was "socket options" - the
ones that are available in many operating systems.

I think the API should not limit itself to a specific way on how to
configure the stack (e.g., through socket-options, ioctl, netlink,...).
But rather be agnostic as to the technical details on how the higher
layer configures/controls the MPTCP-stack.


Christoph

> Thanks
> Phil & Yoshi
> 
> From: cpaasch@apple.com [mailto:cpaasch@apple.com]
> Sent: 31 July 2016 20:37
> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com>
> Cc: MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential new work item on MPTCP API
> 
> 
> On Jul 26, 2016, at 7:35 AM, philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com> wrote:
> 
> Christoph,
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#section-5.3 is “Sockets Interface Extensions by the Basic MPTCP API”
> (also https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#appendix-A “Appendix A. Requirements on a Future Advanced MPTCP API”)
> 
> Ok, I see. Fair enough. Extension to RFC6897 seems fine to me then.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Christoph
> 
> 
> phil
> 
> From: cpaasch@apple.com<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com> [mailto:cpaasch@apple.com]
> Sent: 22 July 2016 09:48
> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>>
> Cc: MultiPath TCP - IETF WG <multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] potential new work item on MPTCP API
> 
> Hello,
> 
> On Jul 21, 2016, at 5:43 PM, philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com> wrote:
> Yesterday Olivier presented about his & Benjamin’s recent work on MPTCP socket api. We didn’t have much discussion whether to add this to the charter. One comment was that any work should build on /reference RFC6897.
> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-mptcp-4.pdf
> Please can you comment whether you see this as a useful work item, or you think it shouldn’t be worked on, or how it should be adapted to something you think the WG should work on.
> 
> yes, I think it is a very useful work item and am willing to contribute to this work.
> 
> I'm not sure whether this can be seen as an update to 6897. I'm under the impression that 6897 takes a different approach, giving users a high-level overview of how using MPTCP might look like to an application that is talking to a TCP-socket (which happens to end up using MPTCP).
> 
> Olivier's work seems to rather make MPTCP entirely explicit to the application. So, I think both works take a different approach.
> 
> 
> 
> To help prompt the discussion, here’s a very first version of some possible charter text
> RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for MPTCP-aware applications, including a set of socket operations. Now there is more experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will re-visit this work, and consider adding more advanced socket operations.
> 
> RFC6897 was Informational – would this new Milestone be Informational or Experimental?
> 
> I think it should be Informational.
> 
> 
> Christoph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> phil
> 
> Philip Eardley
> Research and Innovation
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Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 23:36:40 -0800
From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mptcp-rfc6824bis-07.txt
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Hello,

On 28/10/16 - 21:25:21, Alan Ford wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> This small rev to rfc6824bis applies the two changes proposed by Fabien which had support on the list:
> 
> - The flag on MP_CAPABLE to say “do not connect back to this address” (proposal 1/5)
> - The echo flag to make ADD_ADDR reliable (proposal 2/5)
> 
> The “do not use this address unless nothing else is available (proposal 3/5) did not appear to have much support on the list so has been left out for now.

I still support this proposal :)


Christoph

> 
> Proposals 4 and 5 are MIA so have not been added at this stage ;-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Alan
> 
> > On 28 Oct 2016, at 21:22, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Multipath TCP of the IETF.
> > 
> >        Title           : TCP Extensions for Multipath Operation with Multiple Addresses
> >        Authors         : Alan Ford
> >                          Costin Raiciu
> >                          Mark Handley
> >                          Olivier Bonaventure
> >                          Christoph Paasch
> > 	Filename        : draft-ietf-mptcp-rfc6824bis-07.txt
> > 	Pages           : 73
> > 	Date            : 2016-10-28
> > 
> > Abstract:
> >   TCP/IP communication is currently restricted to a single path per
> >   connection, yet multiple paths often exist between peers.  The
> >   simultaneous use of these multiple paths for a TCP/IP session would
> >   improve resource usage within the network and, thus, improve user
> >   experience through higher throughput and improved resilience to
> >   network failure.
> > 
> >   Multipath TCP provides the ability to simultaneously use multiple
> >   paths between peers.  This document presents a set of extensions to
> >   traditional TCP to support multipath operation.  The protocol offers
> >   the same type of service to applications as TCP (i.e., reliable
> >   bytestream), and it provides the components necessary to establish
> >   and use multiple TCP flows across potentially disjoint paths.
> > 
> >   This document specifies v1 of Multipath TCP, obsoleting v0 as
> >   specified in RFC6824 [RFC6824] through clarifications and
> >   modifications primarily driven by deployment experience.
> > 
> > 
> > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mptcp-rfc6824bis/
> > 
> > There's also a htmlized version available at:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mptcp-rfc6824bis-07
> > 
> > A diff from the previous version is available at:
> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mptcp-rfc6824bis-07
> > 
> > 
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> > 
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > 
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Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 23:51:45 -0800
From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
To: Fabien =?iso-8859-1?Q?Duch=EAne?= <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:51:48 -0000

Hello,

On 06/11/16 - 13:33:56, Fabien Duchêne wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> As we agreed in Berlin during IETF96, here are a few email to discuss
> the contributions proposed in
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
> 
> The backup mode defined in RC6824 only supports an "all-or- nothing"
> mode in the usage of
> the subflows, where an host might just prefer to use certain subflow 
> over others.
> To allow an host to inform the receving host about its preference in
> terms of subflow usage, we propose to modify the ADD_ADDR option by
> adding 3 "priority" bits.
> A host receving a priority for a sub MAY use this information in it's
> scheduling decisions.
> 
> To allow the priority of an already established subflow to be modified,
> we propose to modify the MP_PRIO option by adding the 3 priority bits
> next to the "B" flag.
> 
> For the moment, the priority field is interpreted as an unsigned integer
> with the highest numerical value being the most preferred one, but this
> is up to discussions, but this point is up to discussion.

while I support adding more info to MPTCP to allow a finer-grained control
of the peer's scheduling, I think the priority-bits should be defined in a
more precise way.

I see the this work here as a way to allow for a more deterministic behavior
when an MPTCP-client connects to a MPTCP-server. As of today, when I on my
mobile device connect to a server that is outside of my control, the only
way I can tell the server to schedule traffic in a certain way is by using
the backup-bit. Upon which I can expect the server to not send traffic on
this subflow unless the primary subflow is broken.
This kind of "configuration" is not sufficient for most use-cases.

I see the priorities as a way for the client to tell the server exactly
what kind of scheduling it expects to meet a certain "QoS-requirement".
So, we should clearly specify what each priority means.

If we leave the interpretation of the priority-bits open to the
implementation, hosts still cannot rely on getting a certain service by
the peer when set the priority bits.


Thoughts?



Cheers,
Christoph


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From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
To: Fabien =?iso-8859-1?Q?Duch=EAne?= <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 5/5 - Communities
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Hello,

On 06/11/16 - 13:38:22, Fabien Duchêne wrote:
> As we agreed in Berlin during IETF96, here are a few email to discuss
> the contributions proposed in
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
> 
> To allow a host to inform the receiving host about the diversity of
> several addresses we propose to modify the ADD_ADDR to include 4 bits
> describing a "Community" associated to this address.
> The community values are an opaque field and it is expected that two
> addresses having the same community share some resources.
> 
> With the community bits, a dual-stack host could elect to regroup all
> the addresses attached to a single interface under the same community,
> allowing the receiving host to decide on which advertised addresses it
> wants to establish new subflows.
> This is because in the case of a dual-stack host, establishing v4 and V6
> subflows
> is not always the best solution.
> The idea here is to design a generic solution to regroup the address
> that shares
> the same forwarding type in a specific class.

I support this. Although, I wonder whether we need to use 4 bits. Maybe 3
are enough? (just trying to spare a bit ;))


Christoph


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Hello,


inline

On 11/13/2016 08:53 AM, Christoph Paasch wrote:
> I support this. Although, I wonder whether we need to use 4 bits. Maybe 3
> are enough? (just trying to spare a bit ;))
>
Hum, why not? I didn't really think about that while writing the draft, 
it was more "all your bits are belong to us" :D
8 values seems more than enough to me!

> Christoph
>
Fabien


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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Fabien_Duch=c3=aane?= <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
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Hello,


On 11/13/2016 08:31 AM, Christoph Paasch wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On 09/11/16 - 10:21:42, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
>> Following the earlier discussion, there is support to add a charter item as follows:
>> <<RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for MPTCP-aware applications, including a set of socket operations. Now there is more experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will re-visit this work, and consider adding more advanced socket operations. The document will be Informational.>>
>> If you disagree with this being added, or suggest some mod to this item, please say.
> I support this work as well.
>
> But, I also agree with Mirja's comment that "socket operations" is not a
> well-defined term. I guess, what has been meant was "socket options" - the
> ones that are available in many operating systems.
>
> I think the API should not limit itself to a specific way on how to
> configure the stack (e.g., through socket-options, ioctl, netlink,...).
> But rather be agnostic as to the technical details on how the higher
> layer configures/controls the MPTCP-stack.
>

I support this work and I agree with Christoph and Mirja.
> Christoph
>

Cheers,

Fabien



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References: <581F2334.8010403@uclouvain.be> <20161113075145.GH4269@Chimay.local>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Fabien_Duch=c3=aane?= <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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Hello,

Inline,

On 11/13/2016 08:51 AM, Christoph Paasch wrote:
> Hello,
> while I support adding more info to MPTCP to allow a finer-grained control
> of the peer's scheduling, I think the priority-bits should be defined in a
> more precise way.
>
> I see the this work here as a way to allow for a more deterministic behavior
> when an MPTCP-client connects to a MPTCP-server. As of today, when I on my
> mobile device connect to a server that is outside of my control, the only
> way I can tell the server to schedule traffic in a certain way is by using
> the backup-bit. Upon which I can expect the server to not send traffic on
> this subflow unless the primary subflow is broken.
> This kind of "configuration" is not sufficient for most use-cases.
> I see the priorities as a way for the client to tell the server exactly
> what kind of scheduling it expects to meet a certain "QoS-requirement".
> So, we should clearly specify what each priority means.
The way I wrote the draft was more like "ok, let's tell the server that, 
if possible,
I'd like to receive most on the trafic on this subflow, then this one, 
then this one".
This is why I wrote

"The priority field MUST be interpreted as an unsigned integer value with the highest
numerical value being the most preferred one."

While I agree that we should be as specific as possible, I wonder how we could be more
explicit about this. Any idea?
If we are too specific, like saying "always schedule on the highest priority subflow,
until the windows is full, then skip to the next one" we are actually writing a strict priority
scheduler, and I was hoping that we could leave the priority open to more creative ways
of handling the priorities.
It's a MAY because I'm not sure that making the respect of the priority a MUST would
be interesting, for backward compatibility, but also because the priorities of one host
could clash with the other's own interest.

> If we leave the interpretation of the priority-bits open to the
> implementation, hosts still cannot rely on getting a certain service by
> the peer when set the priority bits.
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
Cheers!

Fabien


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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>, <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
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re socket operations.=0A=
this is the term used in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#section-5.3=0A=
happy to use whatever term is clearest - operations, options or sometihing =
else!=0A=
phil=0A=
________________________________________=0A=
From: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Fabien Duch=
=EAne <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>=0A=
Sent: 14 November 2016 02:03=0A=
To: multipathtcp@ietf.org=0A=
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API=0A=
=0A=
Hello,=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
On 11/13/2016 08:31 AM, Christoph Paasch wrote:=0A=
> Hello,=0A=
>=0A=
> On 09/11/16 - 10:21:42, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:=0A=
>> Following the earlier discussion, there is support to add a charter item=
 as follows:=0A=
>> <<RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for MPTCP-awa=
re applications, including a set of socket operations. Now there is more ex=
perience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will re-visit this work, and co=
nsider adding more advanced socket operations. The document will be Informa=
tional.>>=0A=
>> If you disagree with this being added, or suggest some mod to this item,=
 please say.=0A=
> I support this work as well.=0A=
>=0A=
> But, I also agree with Mirja's comment that "socket operations" is not a=
=0A=
> well-defined term. I guess, what has been meant was "socket options" - th=
e=0A=
> ones that are available in many operating systems.=0A=
>=0A=
> I think the API should not limit itself to a specific way on how to=0A=
> configure the stack (e.g., through socket-options, ioctl, netlink,...).=
=0A=
> But rather be agnostic as to the technical details on how the higher=0A=
> layer configures/controls the MPTCP-stack.=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
I support this work and I agree with Christoph and Mirja.=0A=
> Christoph=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
Cheers,=0A=
=0A=
Fabien=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
_______________________________________________=0A=
multipathtcp mailing list=0A=
multipathtcp@ietf.org=0A=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp=0A=


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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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I think this work item is achievable by simply removing references to =
=E2=80=9Cat least one end=E2=80=9D from the existing charter item on the =
proxy. So the item would now read:

Finally, the working group will explore whether an MPTCP-aware
middlebox would be useful. For example, potentially helping MPTCP=E2=80=99=
s=20
incremental deployment by allowing only one end host to be MPTCP-enabled=20=

and the middlebox acts as an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which =
runs=20
TCP; and potentially helping some mobility scenarios, where the middle =
box=20
acts as an anchor between two MPTCP-enabled hosts. Alternatively, =
neither=20
end host could be MPTCP-enabled but a pair of proxies could work =
together to=20
bring MPTCP benefits to such connections. The working group will detail =
what real
problems an MPTCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact the
Multipath TCP architecture (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be
justified as compared against alternative solutions to the problems, and
the likely feasibility of solving the technical and security issues.

In some ways, the two ended proxy work could even be seen as an =
extension of the previous operational experience work within this WG.

Regards,
Alan

> On 10 Nov 2016, at 19:17, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
> Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active =
discussion is reaching some common understanding?
> =20
> We=E2=80=99re trying to work out what a work item might look like, so =
would like to understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the =
scenario, & what common agreements we=E2=80=99d assume & restrictions on =
how the solution works. This seems important to frame work by WG. If =
possible we=E2=80=99d like discussion on these points to avoid getting =
into the fine details of one particular existing proposal.
> =20
> What we=E2=80=99d appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions =
/understandings are about:
> =C2=B7         The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host =
knows the address of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows =
the address of the =E2=80=98legacy=E2=80=99 host it wants to communicate =
with)
> =C2=B7         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP =
protocol=E2=80=99s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes
> =C2=B7         If we can agree that the solution is based on a new =
MPTCP option
> =C2=B7         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP =
protocol=E2=80=99s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4> =20
> =C2=B7         If any impact is already envisaged on TCP=E2=80=99s =
semantics, or any mods are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, =
etc
> =C2=B7         If any impact is already envisaged on other existing =
transport protocol=E2=80=99s semantics (presuming people still would =
like non-TCP in scope?)
> =C2=B7         Anything else that you think is needed in order to =
frame the work item
> =20
> It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended =
proxy, ie where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, =
ie where neither host is MPTCP-enabled).
> =20
> This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be =
=E2=80=9Cnone=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 we=E2=80=99ll end up with just a short =
paragraph or a few bullets in the charter.
> =20
> We=E2=80=99d also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, =
but Mirja and IESG will probably want the main input on this.
> =20
> Thanks
> Phil & Yoshi
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I think this work item is achievable by simply removing =
references to =E2=80=9Cat least one end=E2=80=9D from the existing =
charter item on the proxy. So the item would now read:<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><i class=3D"">Finally, the =
working group will explore whether an MPTCP-aware</i></div><div =
class=3D""><i class=3D"">middlebox would be useful.&nbsp;</i><i =
class=3D"">For example, potentially helping =
MPTCP=E2=80=99s&nbsp;</i></div><div class=3D""><i class=3D"">incremental =
deployment by&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">allowing only one end host to be =
MPTCP-enabled&nbsp;</i></div><div class=3D""><i class=3D"">and the =
middlebox acts as&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">an MPTCP proxy for the other =
end host, which runs&nbsp;</i></div><div class=3D""><i class=3D"">TCP; =
and potentially&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">helping some mobility scenarios, =
where the&nbsp;middle box&nbsp;</i></div><div class=3D""><i =
class=3D"">acts as an anchor&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">between two =
MPTCP-enabled hosts.&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">Alternatively, =
neither&nbsp;</i></div><div class=3D""><i class=3D"">end host could be =
MPTCP-enabled but a pair&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">of proxies could work =
together to&nbsp;</i></div><div class=3D""><i class=3D"">bring MPTCP =
benefits to such connections.&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">The working group =
will detail what real</i></div><div class=3D""><i class=3D"">problems an =
MPTCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact =
the</i></div><div class=3D""><i class=3D"">Multipath TCP architecture =
(RFC6182), what proxy approach might be</i></div><div class=3D""><i =
class=3D"">justified as compared against alternative solutions to the =
problems, and</i></div><div class=3D""><i class=3D"">the likely =
feasibility of solving the technical and security =
issues.</i></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In some ways, the two ended proxy work =
could even be seen as an extension of the previous operational =
experience work within this WG.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 10 Nov 2016, at 19:17, <a =
href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Perhaps =
this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active discussion =
is reaching some common understanding?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">We=E2=80=99re trying to work out what a =
work item might look like, so would like to understand what assumptions =
we would make, eg about the scenario, &amp; what common agreements =
we=E2=80=99d assume &amp; restrictions on how the solution works. This =
seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we=E2=80=99d like =
discussion on these points to avoid getting into the fine details of one =
particular existing proposal.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">What we=E2=80=99d appreciate is a =
summary of what the assumptions /understandings are about:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>The =
scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the address of the =
proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address of the =
=E2=80=98legacy=E2=80=99 host it wants to communicate with)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>If any =
impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol=E2=80=99s =
fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>If we =
can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>If any =
impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol=E2=80=99s =
semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: windowtext;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4</span></a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>If any =
impact is already envisaged on TCP=E2=80=99s semantics, or any mods are =
needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>If any =
impact is already envisaged on other existing transport protocol=E2=80=99s=
 semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Anything=
 else that you think is needed in order to frame the work item<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It may be =
clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie where =
only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, ie where neither =
host is MPTCP-enabled).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can =
be =E2=80=9Cnone=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 we=E2=80=99ll end up with just a =
short paragraph or a few bullets in the charter.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">We=E2=80=99=
d also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and =
IESG will probably want the main input on this.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil =
&amp; Yoshi<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">multipathtcp =
mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp</a></div></b=
lockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:14:17 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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Hi all,

After discussion at IETF97, I think it=E2=80=99s clear that this =
proposal - the idea of =E2=80=9Cpriority=E2=80=9D - means different =
things to different people. For example:

a) A percentage split - but would that only kick in when one link is =
full? Or would all traffic always be split?
b) Prioritising subflows, overflowing only when one is full
c) QoS (latency, bandwidth, etc) values
d) etc etc

Personally I think only (b) makes sense at the subflow level, everything =
else is far too complex to signal in a few bits. Whether it is of use to =
people in the real world, however, I don=E2=80=99t know, however!

I also think it=E2=80=99s entirely feasible to achieve a lot of the =
traffic engineering here by using TCP control signals - ACKs and window =
size - to slow down communications. As a sender you can already control =
rate based on your local policy, and at the receiving end you could use =
ACKs, ECN, window, etc.

This proposal needs a much clearer idea of what it=E2=80=99s trying to =
achieve before we could consider it for merging.

Regards,
Alan

> On 14 Nov 2016, at 01:58, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne =
<fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> Inline,
>=20
> On 11/13/2016 08:51 AM, Christoph Paasch wrote:
>> Hello,
>> while I support adding more info to MPTCP to allow a finer-grained =
control
>> of the peer's scheduling, I think the priority-bits should be defined =
in a
>> more precise way.
>>=20
>> I see the this work here as a way to allow for a more deterministic =
behavior
>> when an MPTCP-client connects to a MPTCP-server. As of today, when I =
on my
>> mobile device connect to a server that is outside of my control, the =
only
>> way I can tell the server to schedule traffic in a certain way is by =
using
>> the backup-bit. Upon which I can expect the server to not send =
traffic on
>> this subflow unless the primary subflow is broken.
>> This kind of "configuration" is not sufficient for most use-cases.
>> I see the priorities as a way for the client to tell the server =
exactly
>> what kind of scheduling it expects to meet a certain =
"QoS-requirement".
>> So, we should clearly specify what each priority means.
> The way I wrote the draft was more like "ok, let's tell the server =
that, if possible,
> I'd like to receive most on the trafic on this subflow, then this one, =
then this one".
> This is why I wrote
>=20
> "The priority field MUST be interpreted as an unsigned integer value =
with the highest
> numerical value being the most preferred one."
>=20
> While I agree that we should be as specific as possible, I wonder how =
we could be more
> explicit about this. Any idea?
> If we are too specific, like saying "always schedule on the highest =
priority subflow,
> until the windows is full, then skip to the next one" we are actually =
writing a strict priority
> scheduler, and I was hoping that we could leave the priority open to =
more creative ways
> of handling the priorities.
> It's a MAY because I'm not sure that making the respect of the =
priority a MUST would
> be interesting, for backward compatibility, but also because the =
priorities of one host
> could clash with the other's own interest.
>=20
>> If we leave the interpretation of the priority-bits open to the
>> implementation, hosts still cannot rely on getting a certain service =
by
>> the peer when set the priority bits.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thoughts?
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> Christoph
>>=20
> Cheers!
>=20
> Fabien
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp>

--Apple-Mail=_ED6C2EA0-73C8-493B-95A0-AF18B898D619
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi all,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">After discussion at IETF97, I think it=E2=80=99s clear that =
this proposal - the idea of =E2=80=9Cpriority=E2=80=9D - means different =
things to different people. For example:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">a) A percentage split - but would that =
only kick in when one link is full? Or would all traffic always be =
split?</div><div class=3D"">b) Prioritising subflows, overflowing only =
when one is full</div><div class=3D"">c) QoS (latency, bandwidth, etc) =
values</div><div class=3D"">d) etc etc</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Personally I think only (b) makes sense =
at the subflow level, everything else is far too complex to signal in a =
few bits. Whether it is of use to people in the real world, however, I =
don=E2=80=99t know, however!</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I also think it=E2=80=99s entirely =
feasible to achieve a lot of the traffic engineering here by using TCP =
control signals - ACKs and window size - to slow down communications. As =
a sender you can already control rate based on your local policy, and at =
the receiving end you could use ACKs, ECN, window, etc.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This proposal needs a =
much clearer idea of what it=E2=80=99s trying to achieve before we could =
consider it for merging.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Regards,</div><div class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
14 Nov 2016, at 01:58, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be" =
class=3D"">fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Hello,</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Inline,</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">On 11/13/2016 08:51 AM, Christoph Paasch =
wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Hello,<br =
class=3D"">while I support adding more info to MPTCP to allow a =
finer-grained control<br class=3D"">of the peer's scheduling, I think =
the priority-bits should be defined in a<br class=3D"">more precise =
way.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I see the this work here as a way to =
allow for a more deterministic behavior<br class=3D"">when an =
MPTCP-client connects to a MPTCP-server. As of today, when I on my<br =
class=3D"">mobile device connect to a server that is outside of my =
control, the only<br class=3D"">way I can tell the server to schedule =
traffic in a certain way is by using<br class=3D"">the backup-bit. Upon =
which I can expect the server to not send traffic on<br class=3D"">this =
subflow unless the primary subflow is broken.<br class=3D"">This kind of =
"configuration" is not sufficient for most use-cases.<br class=3D"">I =
see the priorities as a way for the client to tell the server exactly<br =
class=3D"">what kind of scheduling it expects to meet a certain =
"QoS-requirement".<br class=3D"">So, we should clearly specify what each =
priority means.<br class=3D""></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">The way I wrote the =
draft was more like "ok, let's tell the server that, if =
possible,</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">I'd like to receive most on the trafic on this =
subflow, then this one, then this one".</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">This is why I wrote</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">"The priority field MUST be interpreted =
as an unsigned integer value with the highest</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">numerical value =
being the most preferred one."</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">While I agree that we should be as specific as =
possible, I wonder how we could be more</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">explicit about this. Any idea?</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">If we are too =
specific, like saying "always schedule on the highest priority =
subflow,</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">until the windows is full, then skip to the next =
one" we are actually writing a strict priority</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">scheduler, and I =
was hoping that we could leave the priority open to more creative =
ways</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">of handling the priorities.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">It's a MAY because =
I'm not sure that making the respect of the priority a MUST =
would</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">be interesting, for backward compatibility, but =
also because the priorities of one host</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">could clash with the other's own =
interest.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">If we leave the =
interpretation of the priority-bits open to the<br =
class=3D"">implementation, hosts still cannot rely on getting a certain =
service by<br class=3D"">the peer when set the priority bits.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thoughts?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Cheers,<br =
class=3D"">Christoph<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Cheers!</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Fabien</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
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From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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Alan,

> I also think it’s entirely feasible to achieve a lot of the traffic
> engineering here by using TCP control signals - ACKs and window size -
> to slow down communications. As a sender you can already control rate
> based on your local policy, and at the receiving end you could use ACKs,
> ECN, window, etc.

Announcing different receive windows on different subflows is not a good 
idea. RFC6824 notes in section 2.4

    With MPTCP, all subflows share the same receive buffer and advertise
    the same receive window.

This is a safe principle that hosts should respect.


Olivier


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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
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Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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i think we should move beyond "exploring whether it would be useful".


i'd like us to assess proposed solutions. i think we should say this is wha=
t we're doing - at the moment we've had quite a lot of discussion about one=
 proposal. we should give the chance for other proposals, and make the disc=
ussion more structured (what are the assessment criteria).


i also think we should explicitly exclude non-tcp traffic  (i think non-tcp=
 traffic is too big a topic for our WG)


phil



________________________________
From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Sent: 14 November 2016 06:11
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R
Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item

I think this work item is achievable by simply removing references to =93at=
 least one end=94 from the existing charter item on the proxy. So the item =
would now read:

Finally, the working group will explore whether an MPTCP-aware
middlebox would be useful. For example, potentially helping MPTCP=92s
incremental deployment by allowing only one end host to be MPTCP-enabled
and the middlebox acts as an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which runs
TCP; and potentially helping some mobility scenarios, where the middle box
acts as an anchor between two MPTCP-enabled hosts. Alternatively, neither
end host could be MPTCP-enabled but a pair of proxies could work together t=
o
bring MPTCP benefits to such connections. The working group will detail wha=
t real
problems an MPTCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact the
Multipath TCP architecture (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be
justified as compared against alternative solutions to the problems, and
the likely feasibility of solving the technical and security issues.

In some ways, the two ended proxy work could even be seen as an extension o=
f the previous operational experience work within this WG.

Regards,
Alan

On 10 Nov 2016, at 19:17, philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.co=
m> wrote:

Hi,
Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active discus=
sion is reaching some common understanding?

We=92re trying to work out what a work item might look like, so would like =
to understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario, & what=
 common agreements we=92d assume & restrictions on how the solution works. =
This seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we=92d like discussio=
n on these points to avoid getting into the fine details of one particular =
existing proposal.

What we=92d appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions /understandings=
 are about:
=95         The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the ad=
dress of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address of =
the =91legacy=92 host it wants to communicate with)
=95         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protoco=
l=92s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes
=95         If we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP optio=
n
=95         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protoco=
l=92s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4
=95         If any impact is already envisaged on TCP=92s semantics, or any=
 mods are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc
=95         If any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport =
protocol=92s semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?=
)
=95         Anything else that you think is needed in order to frame the wo=
rk item

It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie =
where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, ie where neit=
her host is MPTCP-enabled).

This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be =93none=94 =
=96 we=92ll end up with just a short paragraph or a few bullets in the char=
ter.

We=92d also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and=
 IESG will probably want the main input on this.

Thanks
Phil & Yoshi
_______________________________________________
multipathtcp mailing list
multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none"><!--P{margin-top:0;margin-b=
ottom:0;} --></style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#F=
FFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>i think we should move beyond &quot;exploring whether it would be useful=
&quot;. </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>i'd like us to assess proposed solutions. i think&nbsp;we should say thi=
s&nbsp;is what we're doing&nbsp;-&nbsp;at the moment we've had&nbsp;quite a=
&nbsp;lot&nbsp;of discussion about&nbsp;one proposal.&nbsp;we should give t=
he chance for other proposals, and&nbsp;make the discussion more structured=
&nbsp;(what
 are the assessment criteria).&nbsp; </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>i also&nbsp;think we should&nbsp;explicitly exclude&nbsp;non-tcp traffic=
&nbsp; (i think non-tcp traffic is too big a topic for our WG)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>phil<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Alan Ford &lt;alan.f=
ord@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 14 November 2016 06:11<br>
<b>To:</b> Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R<br>
<b>Cc:</b> multipathtcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<=
/font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>I think this work item is achievable by simply removing references to =
=93at least one end=94 from the existing charter item on the proxy. So the =
item would now read:
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px; border:none; padding:0px=
">
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">Finally, the working group will explore wheth=
er an MPTCP-aware</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">middlebox would be useful.&nbsp;</i><i class=
=3D"">For example, potentially helping MPTCP=92s&nbsp;</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">incremental deployment by&nbsp;</i><i class=
=3D"">allowing only one end host to be MPTCP-enabled&nbsp;</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">and the middlebox acts as&nbsp;</i><i class=
=3D"">an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which runs&nbsp;</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">TCP; and potentially&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">h=
elping some mobility scenarios, where the&nbsp;middle box&nbsp;</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">acts as an anchor&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">betw=
een two MPTCP-enabled hosts.&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">Alternatively, neither&=
nbsp;</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">end host could be MPTCP-enabled but a pair&nb=
sp;</i><i class=3D"">of proxies could work together to&nbsp;</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">bring MPTCP benefits to such connections.&nbs=
p;</i><i class=3D"">The working group will detail what real</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">problems an MPTCP-enabled middlebox might sol=
ve, how it would impact the</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">Multipath TCP architecture (RFC6182), what pr=
oxy approach might be</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">justified as compared against alternative sol=
utions to the problems, and</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">the likely feasibility of solving the technic=
al and security issues.</i></div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">In some ways, the two ended proxy work could even be seen a=
s an extension of the previous operational experience work within this WG.<=
/div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Regards,</div>
<div class=3D"">Alan</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 10 Nov 2016, at 19:17, <a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@=
bt.com" class=3D"">
philip.eardley@bt.com</a> wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px;=
 font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto=
; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:norma=
l; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
Hi,</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active discus=
sion is reaching some common understanding?</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
We=92re trying to work out what a work item might look like, so would like =
to understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario, &amp; =
what common agreements we=92d assume &amp; restrictions on how the solution=
 works. This seems important to frame work by
 WG. If possible we=92d like discussion on these points to avoid getting in=
to the fine details of one particular existing proposal.</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
What we=92d appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions /understandings=
 are about:</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>The
 scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the address of the pr=
oxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address of the =91legacy=
=92 host it wants to communicate with)</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>If
 any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol=92s fallback=
 behaviour and coping with middleboxes</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>If
 we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>If
 any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol=92s semantic=
s (other than the new option) eg in terms of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-=
4" class=3D"" style=3D"color:rgb(149,79,114); text-decoration:underline"><s=
pan class=3D"" style=3D"color:windowtext">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc68=
24#section-4</span></a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&=
nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>If
 any impact is already envisaged on TCP=92s semantics, or any mods are need=
ed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>If
 any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport protocol=92s s=
emantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?)</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>Anything
 else that you think is needed in order to frame the work item</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie =
where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, ie where neit=
her host is MPTCP-enabled).</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be =93none=94 =
=96 we=92ll end up with just a short paragraph or a few bullets in the char=
ter.</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
We=92d also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and=
 IESG will probably want the main input on this.</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
Thanks</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
Phil &amp; Yoshi</div>
</div>
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style=
:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-alig=
n:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:a=
uto; word-spacing:0px; float:none; display:inline!important">______________=
_________________________________</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-s=
pacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transf=
orm:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style=
:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-alig=
n:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:a=
uto; word-spacing:0px; float:none; display:inline!important">multipathtcp
 mailing list</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-siz=
e:12px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orpha=
ns:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-spac=
e:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" class=3D"" style=3D"color:rgb(149,=
79,114); text-decoration:underline; font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; =
font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto;=
 text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal=
; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-weigh=
t:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-inden=
t:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0=
px">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp" class=3D"" s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(149,79,114); text-decoration:underline; font-family:Helve=
tica; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing=
:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:no=
ne; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_147910512932645083btcom_--


From nobody Sun Nov 13 22:53:35 2016
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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
To: "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be" <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
Thread-Index: AQHSPX/+pHhYsK3ArUOtJ8IRrwCP2qDXqukAgAA0AICAACq+sA==
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:53:26 +0000
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References: <0a0d2a248fac4616ac795c579d996be8@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <20161113073136.GF4269@Chimay.local>, <495a3fd8-e83d-29f6-5612-bea5222a0d38@uclouvain.be> <1479100195639.46263@bt.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
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As far as I recall, I think the term "socket operation" was intentionally u=
sed instead of "socket option", since it was considered to be applicable to=
 any TCP API, e.g., also the APIs used by high-level programming languages =
such as Java.=20

The feedback was that the term "socket option" is not applicable to all TCP=
 stacks. And even on TCP stacks that use the socket interface, many applica=
tions may have no access to socket options since they use a more abstract A=
PI (e.g., a library). The objective of RFC 6897 was to apply to all potenti=
al TCP stacks.

Possibly better terms can be found.

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> philip.eardley@bt.com
> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 6:10 AM
> To: fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be; multipathtcp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
>=20
> re socket operations.
> this is the term used in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#section-5.3
> happy to use whatever term is clearest - operations, options or sometihin=
g
> else!
> phil
> ________________________________________
> From: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Fabien Du=
ch=EAne
> <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
> Sent: 14 November 2016 02:03
> To: multipathtcp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
>=20
> On 11/13/2016 08:31 AM, Christoph Paasch wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > On 09/11/16 - 10:21:42, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
> >> Following the earlier discussion, there is support to add a charter it=
em as
> follows:
> >> <<RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for MPTCP-a=
ware
> applications, including a set of socket operations. Now there is more
> experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will re-visit this work, an=
d
> consider adding more advanced socket operations. The document will be
> Informational.>>
> >> If you disagree with this being added, or suggest some mod to this ite=
m,
> please say.
> > I support this work as well.
> >
> > But, I also agree with Mirja's comment that "socket operations" is not =
a
> > well-defined term. I guess, what has been meant was "socket options" - =
the
> > ones that are available in many operating systems.
> >
> > I think the API should not limit itself to a specific way on how to
> > configure the stack (e.g., through socket-options, ioctl, netlink,...).
> > But rather be agnostic as to the technical details on how the higher
> > layer configures/controls the MPTCP-stack.
> >
>=20
> I support this work and I agree with Christoph and Mirja.
> > Christoph
> >
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> Fabien
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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Hello,


On 11/14/2016 03:14 PM, Alan Ford wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
> Personally I think only (b) makes sense at the subflow level, 
> everything else is far too complex to signal in a few bits. Whether it 
> is of use to people in the real world, however, I don’t know, however!
>
This is what the draft is proposing, however I agree that other 
interpretation is possible (a precentage split or a QoS like I said), so 
I could make this clearer in the draft.
Even if by doing that, we are almost creating a priority scheduler, but 
everyone agrees with that that's ok.

Fabien


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Hi Phil,

Please see inline.

Cheers,
Med

De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de phil=
ip.eardley@bt.com
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 10 novembre 2016 20:17
=C0 : multipathtcp@ietf.org
Objet : [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item

Hi,
Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active discus=
sion is reaching some common understanding?


We're trying to work out what a work item might look like, so would like to=
 understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario, & what c=
ommon agreements we'd assume & restrictions on how the solution works. This=
 seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we'd like discussion on t=
hese points to avoid getting into the fine details of one particular existi=
ng proposal.

What we'd appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions /understandings a=
re about:

*         The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the addr=
ess of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address of th=
e 'legacy' host it wants to communicate with)

[Med] The main assumptions are:

=B7         The address(es) of the remote endpoint is/are retrieved using s=
tate of the art mechanisms; no change is required.

=B7         This work does not mandate nor preclude that a proxy is on a de=
fault forwarding path. Scenarios with host mobility are likely to require t=
he address(es) of the proxy, though.



*         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol'=
s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes

[Med] This work leverages on that behaviour (because this is MPTCP). Furthe=
r, it requires a dedicated procedure for negotiating the support of the ext=
ension for the very FIRST connection to a given proxy.



*         If we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option

[Med] I don't think there is an agreement on this but my current collection=
 is as follows:

=B7         I heard that participants see benefits in 0-RTT MPTCP proxying

=B7         I didn't hear objecting to insert data in SYN

=B7         I do personally think that the negotiation of the extension (SY=
N/AYN-ACK) allows for a safe use on the Internet without violating any of T=
CP/MPTCP specs.

=B7         I know Joe still has an issue with this to be defined as a TCP =
option.



I don't think that we MUST have a consensus on this before chartering this =
work. I agree this is simple if we have such an agreement, but IMHO it is j=
ust fair to leave the final decision for after-charter work.



*         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol'=
s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/rfc6824#section-4

[Med] I do think we can do this work without such modification, but this is=
 typically the kind of decisions we can reach once the work item is charter=
ed, not before.



*         If any impact is already envisaged on TCP's semantics, or any mod=
s are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc

[Med] I don't expect any modification to TCP/



*         If any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport pr=
otocol's semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?)

[Med] There is no expected modification. I do think that handling other pro=
tocols will be valuable because this will avoid having a solution for each =
transport protocols (UDP, namely.



*         Anything else that you think is needed in order to frame the work=
 item

[Med] I would like to add explicit items for DHCP and RADIUS extensions.

It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie =
where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, ie where neit=
her host is MPTCP-enabled).

This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be "none" - we'=
ll end up with just a short paragraph or a few bullets in the charter.

We'd also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and I=
ESG will probably want the main input on this.

Thanks
Phil & Yoshi

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Phil,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Please see inline.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">De&nbsp;:</sp=
an></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR"> multipathtcp [mailto:multipatht=
cp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> philip.eardley@bt.com<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 10 novembre 2016 20:17<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> multipathtcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Perhaps this is speaking too so=
on, but it looks like the very active discussion is reaching some common un=
derstanding?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We&#8217;re trying to work o=
ut what a work item might look like, so would like to understand what assum=
ptions we would make, eg about the scenario, &amp; what common agreements w=
e&#8217;d assume &amp; restrictions on how the solution
 works. This seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we&#8217;d li=
ke discussion on these points to avoid getting into the fine details of one=
 particular existing proposal.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">What we&#8217;d appreciate is a=
 summary of what the assumptions /understandings are about:<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled h=
ost knows the address of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows=
 the address of the &#8216;legacy&#8217; host it wants to communicate with)=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
">[Med] The main assumptions are:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">The address(es) of the =
remote endpoint is/are retrieved using state of the art mechanisms; no chan=
ge is required.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">This work does not mand=
ate nor preclude that a proxy is on a default forwarding path. Scenarios wi=
th host mobility are likely to require the address(es)
 of the proxy, though.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">If any impact is already envisaged on the curre=
nt MPTCP protocol&#8217;s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
">[Med] This work leverages on that behaviour (because this is MPTCP). Furt=
her, it requires a dedicated procedure for negotiating
 the support of the extension for the very FIRST connection to a given prox=
y. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">If we can agree that the solution is based on a=
 new MPTCP option
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
">[Med] I don&#8217;t think there is an agreement on this but my current co=
llection is as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I heard that participan=
ts see benefits in 0-RTT MPTCP proxying<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I didn&#8217;t hear obj=
ecting to insert data in SYN<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I do personally think t=
hat the negotiation of the extension (SYN/AYN-ACK) allows for a safe use on=
 the Internet without violating any of TCP/MPTCP
 specs. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I know Joe still has an=
 issue with this to be defined as a TCP option. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
">I don&#8217;t think that we MUST have a consensus on this before charteri=
ng this work. I agree this is simple if we have such an
 agreement, but IMHO it is just fair to leave the final decision for after-=
charter work. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">If any impact is already envisaged on the curre=
nt MPTCP protocol&#8217;s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms=
 of
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4"><span style=3D"co=
lor:windowtext">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4</span></a> &n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
">[Med] I do think we can do this work without such modification, but this =
is typically the kind of decisions we can reach once
 the work item is chartered, not before.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">If any impact is already envisaged on TCP&#8217=
;s semantics, or any mods are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, e=
tc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
">[Med] I don&#8217;t expect any modification to TCP/<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">If any impact is already envisaged on other exi=
sting transport protocol&#8217;s semantics (presuming people still would li=
ke non-TCP in scope?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
">[Med] There is no expected modification. I do think that handling other p=
rotocols will be valuable because this will avoid
 having a solution for each transport protocols (UDP, namely. &nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-GB" style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=B7</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Anything else that you think is needed in order=
 to frame the work item<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=
">[Med] I would like to add explicit items for DHCP and RADIUS extensions.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">It may be clearer to do this fo=
r the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie where only one host is MPTCP-en=
abled; and double-ended proxy, ie where neither host is MPTCP-enabled).<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">This may seem like a long list,=
 but most of the answers can be &#8220;none&#8221; &#8211; we&#8217;ll end =
up with just a short paragraph or a few bullets in the charter.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">We&#8217;d also have to work ou=
t interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and IESG will probably want th=
e main input on this.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Phil &amp; Yoshi<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DB0C08OPEXCLILMA3corp_--


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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 5/5 - Communities
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Hi all,

After discussion at IETF97, I do not support this proposal. I can=E2=80=99=
t see any scenarios where this would actually be particularly useful.

Specifically, no end host really has enough knowledge to say their IPv4 =
and IPv6 addresses go over the same path, other than they share the same =
physical interface at an end host. Some ends may have a good idea, e.g. =
data centres.

But if you as a server know your IPv6 and IPv4 share a path, you may =
choose not to use one or the other. Same for the client. So under what =
circumstances does signalling this to the far end actually help?

Regards,
Alan

> On 6 Nov 2016, at 12:38, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne =
<fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> As we agreed in Berlin during IETF96, here are a few email to discuss
> the contributions proposed in
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duchene-mptcp-add-addr/
>=20
> To allow a host to inform the receiving host about the diversity of
> several addresses we propose to modify the ADD_ADDR to include 4 bits
> describing a "Community" associated to this address.
> The community values are an opaque field and it is expected that two
> addresses having the same community share some resources.
>=20
> With the community bits, a dual-stack host could elect to regroup all
> the addresses attached to a single interface under the same community,
> allowing the receiving host to decide on which advertised addresses it
> wants to establish new subflows.
> This is because in the case of a dual-stack host, establishing v4 and =
V6
> subflows
> is not always the best solution.
> The idea here is to design a generic solution to regroup the address
> that shares
> the same forwarding type in a specific class.
>=20
> Fabien
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 5/5 - Communities
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On 11/14/2016 04:05 PM, Alan Ford wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> But if you as a server know your IPv6 and IPv4 share a path, you may choose not to use one or the other. Same for the client. So under what circumstances does signalling this to the far end actually help?
mm thinking about it:
let's say that you have a v4 and a v6 that share a path, so you don't 
announce the v6. What happen if the v4 fails if you didn't announce your v6?
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>


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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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something it would be good to have discussion about.

We could restrict to where both proxies are under the control of the same o=
perator. I think this matches the current deployments, and it would simplif=
y the security and config



________________________________
From: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of philip.eard=
ley@bt.com <philip.eardley@bt.com>
Sent: 14 November 2016 06:32
To: alan.ford@gmail.com
Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item


i think we should move beyond "exploring whether it would be useful".


i'd like us to assess proposed solutions. i think we should say this is wha=
t we're doing - at the moment we've had quite a lot of discussion about one=
 proposal. we should give the chance for other proposals, and make the disc=
ussion more structured (what are the assessment criteria).


i also think we should explicitly exclude non-tcp traffic  (i think non-tcp=
 traffic is too big a topic for our WG)


phil



________________________________
From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Sent: 14 November 2016 06:11
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R
Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item

I think this work item is achievable by simply removing references to =93at=
 least one end=94 from the existing charter item on the proxy. So the item =
would now read:

Finally, the working group will explore whether an MPTCP-aware
middlebox would be useful. For example, potentially helping MPTCP=92s
incremental deployment by allowing only one end host to be MPTCP-enabled
and the middlebox acts as an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which runs
TCP; and potentially helping some mobility scenarios, where the middle box
acts as an anchor between two MPTCP-enabled hosts. Alternatively, neither
end host could be MPTCP-enabled but a pair of proxies could work together t=
o
bring MPTCP benefits to such connections. The working group will detail wha=
t real
problems an MPTCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact the
Multipath TCP architecture (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be
justified as compared against alternative solutions to the problems, and
the likely feasibility of solving the technical and security issues.

In some ways, the two ended proxy work could even be seen as an extension o=
f the previous operational experience work within this WG.

Regards,
Alan

On 10 Nov 2016, at 19:17, philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.co=
m> wrote:

Hi,
Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active discus=
sion is reaching some common understanding?

We=92re trying to work out what a work item might look like, so would like =
to understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario, & what=
 common agreements we=92d assume & restrictions on how the solution works. =
This seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we=92d like discussio=
n on these points to avoid getting into the fine details of one particular =
existing proposal.

What we=92d appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions /understandings=
 are about:
=95         The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the ad=
dress of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address of =
the =91legacy=92 host it wants to communicate with)
=95         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protoco=
l=92s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes
=95         If we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP optio=
n
=95         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protoco=
l=92s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4
=95         If any impact is already envisaged on TCP=92s semantics, or any=
 mods are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc
=95         If any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport =
protocol=92s semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?=
)
=95         Anything else that you think is needed in order to frame the wo=
rk item

It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie =
where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, ie where neit=
her host is MPTCP-enabled).

This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be =93none=94 =
=96 we=92ll end up with just a short paragraph or a few bullets in the char=
ter.

We=92d also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and=
 IESG will probably want the main input on this.

Thanks
Phil & Yoshi
_______________________________________________
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multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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252">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none"><!--P{margin-top:0;margin-b=
ottom:0;} p=0A=
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<body dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#F=
FFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>something it would be good to have discussion about.</p>
<p>We could restrict to where both proxies are under the control of the sam=
e operator. I think this matches the current deployments, and it would simp=
lify the security and config</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"font-size:12pt; color:#000000; background-color:#FFFFFF; font=
-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" dir=3D"ltr">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> multipathtcp &lt;mul=
tipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of philip.eardley@bt.com &lt;phili=
p.eardley@bt.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 14 November 2016 06:32<br>
<b>To:</b> alan.ford@gmail.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> multipathtcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<=
/font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<p>i think we should move beyond &quot;exploring whether it would be useful=
&quot;. </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>i'd like us to assess proposed solutions. i think&nbsp;we should say thi=
s&nbsp;is what we're doing&nbsp;-&nbsp;at the moment we've had&nbsp;quite a=
&nbsp;lot&nbsp;of discussion about&nbsp;one proposal.&nbsp;we should give t=
he chance for other proposals, and&nbsp;make the discussion more structured=
&nbsp;(what
 are the assessment criteria).&nbsp; </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>i also&nbsp;think we should&nbsp;explicitly exclude&nbsp;non-tcp traffic=
&nbsp; (i think non-tcp traffic is too big a topic for our WG)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>phil<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Alan Ford &lt;alan.f=
ord@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 14 November 2016 06:11<br>
<b>To:</b> Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R<br>
<b>Cc:</b> multipathtcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<=
/font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>I think this work item is achievable by simply removing references to =
=93at least one end=94 from the existing charter item on the proxy. So the =
item would now read:
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px; border:none; padding:0px=
">
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">Finally, the working group will explore wheth=
er an MPTCP-aware</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">middlebox would be useful.&nbsp;</i><i class=
=3D"">For example, potentially helping MPTCP=92s&nbsp;</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">incremental deployment by&nbsp;</i><i class=
=3D"">allowing only one end host to be MPTCP-enabled&nbsp;</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">and the middlebox acts as&nbsp;</i><i class=
=3D"">an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which runs&nbsp;</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">TCP; and potentially&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">h=
elping some mobility scenarios, where the&nbsp;middle box&nbsp;</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">acts as an anchor&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">betw=
een two MPTCP-enabled hosts.&nbsp;</i><i class=3D"">Alternatively, neither&=
nbsp;</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">end host could be MPTCP-enabled but a pair&nb=
sp;</i><i class=3D"">of proxies could work together to&nbsp;</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">bring MPTCP benefits to such connections.&nbs=
p;</i><i class=3D"">The working group will detail what real</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">problems an MPTCP-enabled middlebox might sol=
ve, how it would impact the</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">Multipath TCP architecture (RFC6182), what pr=
oxy approach might be</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">justified as compared against alternative sol=
utions to the problems, and</i></div>
<div class=3D""><i class=3D"">the likely feasibility of solving the technic=
al and security issues.</i></div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">In some ways, the two ended proxy work could even be seen a=
s an extension of the previous operational experience work within this WG.<=
/div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Regards,</div>
<div class=3D"">Alan</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 10 Nov 2016, at 19:17, <a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@=
bt.com" class=3D"">
philip.eardley@bt.com</a> wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px;=
 font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto=
; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:norma=
l; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
Hi,</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active discus=
sion is reaching some common understanding?</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
We=92re trying to work out what a work item might look like, so would like =
to understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario, &amp; =
what common agreements we=92d assume &amp; restrictions on how the solution=
 works. This seems important to frame work by
 WG. If possible we=92d like discussion on these points to avoid getting in=
to the fine details of one particular existing proposal.</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
What we=92d appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions /understandings=
 are about:</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>The
 scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the address of the pr=
oxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address of the =91legacy=
=92 host it wants to communicate with)</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>If
 any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol=92s fallback=
 behaviour and coping with middleboxes</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>If
 we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>If
 any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol=92s semantic=
s (other than the new option) eg in terms of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-=
4" class=3D"" style=3D"color:rgb(149,79,114); text-decoration:underline"><s=
pan class=3D"" style=3D"color:windowtext">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc68=
24#section-4</span></a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&=
nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>If
 any impact is already envisaged on TCP=92s semantics, or any mods are need=
ed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>If
 any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport protocol=92s s=
emantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?)</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif; text-indent:-18pt">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span class=3D"">=B7<span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line=
-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an></span></span>Anything
 else that you think is needed in order to frame the work item</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie =
where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, ie where neit=
her host is MPTCP-enabled).</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be =93none=94 =
=96 we=92ll end up with just a short paragraph or a few bullets in the char=
ter.</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
We=92d also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and=
 IESG will probably want the main input on this.</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
Thanks</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">
Phil &amp; Yoshi</div>
</div>
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style=
:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-alig=
n:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:a=
uto; word-spacing:0px; float:none; display:inline!important">______________=
_________________________________</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-s=
pacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transf=
orm:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style=
:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-alig=
n:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:a=
uto; word-spacing:0px; float:none; display:inline!important">multipathtcp
 mailing list</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-siz=
e:12px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orpha=
ns:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-spac=
e:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" class=3D"" style=3D"color:rgb(149,=
79,114); text-decoration:underline; font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; =
font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto;=
 text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal=
; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-weigh=
t:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-inden=
t:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0=
px">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp" class=3D"" s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(149,79,114); text-decoration:underline; font-family:Helve=
tica; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing=
:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:no=
ne; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 07:28:59 +0000
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To: =?utf-8?Q?Fabien_Duch=C3=AAne?= <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 5/5 - Communities
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You could advertise it with your =E2=80=98backup=E2=80=99 bit in =
proposal 3/5 :-)

> On 14 Nov 2016, at 07:09, Fabien Duch=C3=AAne =
<fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 11/14/2016 04:05 PM, Alan Ford wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> But if you as a server know your IPv6 and IPv4 share a path, you may =
choose not to use one or the other. Same for the client. So under what =
circumstances does signalling this to the far end actually help?
> mm thinking about it:
> let's say that you have a v4 and a v6 that share a path, so you don't =
announce the v6. What happen if the v4 fails if you didn't announce your =
v6?
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "alan.ford@gmail.com" <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Phil,

> something it would be good to have discussion about.
>
> We could restrict to where both proxies are under the control of the
> same operator. I think this matches the current deployments, and it
> would simplify the security and config
>

For the two-ended proxies, I agree that in current deployments the same 
operator controls both proxies.



Olivier


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Phil,

> i think we should move beyond "exploring whether it would be useful".
>
>
> i'd like us to assess proposed solutions. i think we should say this is
> what we're doing - at the moment we've had quite a lot of discussion
> about one proposal. we should give the chance for other proposals,
> and make the discussion more structured (what are the assessment
> criteria).
>

Totally agree. Let's ask for proposals described in drafts at the next 
IETF meeting and decide based on detailed documents and not based on a 
few sentences exchanged by email. Details matter


Olivier


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From: <N.Leymann@telekom.de>
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Hi,

yes, that seems to be a valid assumption. Doing this in a multi-operator en=
vironment can be quite complex.

Regards

Nic

Von: multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von phi=
lip.eardley@bt.com
Gesendet: Montag, 14. November 2016 08:14
An: alan.ford@gmail.com
Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org
Betreff: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item


something it would be good to have discussion about.

We could restrict to where both proxies are under the control of the same o=
perator. I think this matches the current deployments, and it would simplif=
y the security and config





________________________________
From: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp-bounc=
es@ietf.org>> on behalf of philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.c=
om> <philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>>
Sent: 14 November 2016 06:32
To: alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>
Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item


i think we should move beyond "exploring whether it would be useful".



i'd like us to assess proposed solutions. i think we should say this is wha=
t we're doing - at the moment we've had quite a lot of discussion about one=
 proposal. we should give the chance for other proposals, and make the disc=
ussion more structured (what are the assessment criteria).



i also think we should explicitly exclude non-tcp traffic  (i think non-tcp=
 traffic is too big a topic for our WG)



phil





________________________________
From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>
Sent: 14 November 2016 06:11
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R
Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item

I think this work item is achievable by simply removing references to "at l=
east one end" from the existing charter item on the proxy. So the item woul=
d now read:

Finally, the working group will explore whether an MPTCP-aware
middlebox would be useful. For example, potentially helping MPTCP's
incremental deployment by allowing only one end host to be MPTCP-enabled
and the middlebox acts as an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which runs
TCP; and potentially helping some mobility scenarios, where the middle box
acts as an anchor between two MPTCP-enabled hosts. Alternatively, neither
end host could be MPTCP-enabled but a pair of proxies could work together t=
o
bring MPTCP benefits to such connections. The working group will detail wha=
t real
problems an MPTCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact the
Multipath TCP architecture (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be
justified as compared against alternative solutions to the problems, and
the likely feasibility of solving the technical and security issues.

In some ways, the two ended proxy work could even be seen as an extension o=
f the previous operational experience work within this WG.

Regards,
Alan

On 10 Nov 2016, at 19:17, philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.co=
m> wrote:

Hi,
Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active discus=
sion is reaching some common understanding?

We're trying to work out what a work item might look like, so would like to=
 understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario, & what c=
ommon agreements we'd assume & restrictions on how the solution works. This=
 seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we'd like discussion on t=
hese points to avoid getting into the fine details of one particular existi=
ng proposal.

What we'd appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions /understandings a=
re about:
*         The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the addr=
ess of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address of th=
e 'legacy' host it wants to communicate with)
*         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol'=
s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes
*         If we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option
*         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol'=
s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/rfc6824#section-4
*         If any impact is already envisaged on TCP's semantics, or any mod=
s are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc
*         If any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport pr=
otocol's semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?)
*         Anything else that you think is needed in order to frame the work=
 item

It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie =
where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, ie where neit=
her host is MPTCP-enabled).

This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be "none" - we'=
ll end up with just a short paragraph or a few bullets in the charter.

We'd also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and I=
ESG will probably want the main input on this.

Thanks
Phil & Yoshi
_______________________________________________
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multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">yes, that =
seems to be a valid assumption. Doing this in a multi-operator environment =
can be quite complex.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Nic<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Von:</span></b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> multipath=
tcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>philip.eardley@bt.com<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Montag, 14. November 2016 08:14<br>
<b>An:</b> alan.ford@gmail.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> multipathtcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:black">something it would be good to have discussion about.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:black">We could restrict to where both proxies are under the control of=
 the same operator. I think this matches the current deployments, and it wo=
uld simplify the security and config<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgr=
ound:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:black">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"> =
multipathtcp
 &lt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp-bounces=
@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US">multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org</span></a></s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;
 on behalf of </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:philip.eard=
ley@bt.com"><span lang=3D"EN-US">philip.eardley@bt.com</span></a></span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">
 &lt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.co=
m"><span lang=3D"EN-US">philip.eardley@bt.com</span></a></span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 14 November 2016 06:32<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmai=
l.com"><span lang=3D"EN-US">alan.ford@gmail.com</span></a></span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@i=
etf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US">multipathtcp@ietf.org</span></a></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">i think we should move beyond &quot;e=
xploring whether it would be useful&quot;.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">i'd like us to assess proposed soluti=
ons. i think&nbsp;we should say this&nbsp;is what we're doing&nbsp;-&nbsp;a=
t the moment we've had&nbsp;quite a&nbsp;lot&nbsp;of discussion about&nbsp;=
one proposal.&nbsp;we should
 give the chance for other proposals, and&nbsp;make the discussion more str=
uctured&nbsp;(what are the assessment criteria).&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">i also&nbsp;think we should&nbsp;expl=
icitly exclude&nbsp;non-tcp traffic&nbsp; (i think non-tcp traffic is too b=
ig a topic for our WG)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">phil<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgr=
ound:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:black">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"> =
Alan Ford
 &lt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US">alan.ford@gmail.com</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:black">&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 14 November 2016 06:11<br>
<b>To:</b> Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@i=
etf.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US">multipathtcp@ietf.org</span></a></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">I think this work=
 item is achievable by simply removing references to &#8220;at least one en=
d&#8221; from the existing charter item on the proxy. So the item would
 now read: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Finally, the w=
orking group will explore whether an MPTCP-aware</span></i><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">middlebox woul=
d be useful.&nbsp;For example, potentially helping MPTCP&#8217;s&nbsp;</spa=
n></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">incremental de=
ployment by&nbsp;allowing only one end host to be MPTCP-enabled&nbsp;</span=
></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">and the middle=
box acts as&nbsp;an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which runs&nbsp;</s=
pan></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">TCP; and poten=
tially&nbsp;helping some mobility scenarios, where the&nbsp;middle box&nbsp=
;</span></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">acts as an anc=
hor&nbsp;between two MPTCP-enabled hosts.&nbsp;Alternatively, neither&nbsp;=
</span></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">end host could=
 be MPTCP-enabled but a pair&nbsp;of proxies could work together to&nbsp;</=
span></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">bring MPTCP be=
nefits to such connections.&nbsp;The working group will detail what real</s=
pan></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">problems an MP=
TCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact the</span></i><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Multipath TCP =
architecture (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be</span></i><span style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">justified as c=
ompared against alternative solutions to the problems, and</span></i><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">the likely fea=
sibility of solving the technical and security issues.</span></i><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">In some ways, the=
 two ended proxy work could even be seen as an extension of the previous op=
erational experience work within this WG.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Regards,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Alan<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On 10 Nov 2016, a=
t 19:17,
<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">philip.eardley@bt.com</a> wrote:<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active discus=
sion is reaching some common understanding?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
We&#8217;re trying to work out what a work item might look like, so would l=
ike to understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario,
 &amp; what common agreements we&#8217;d assume &amp; restrictions on how t=
he solution works. This seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we=
&#8217;d like discussion on these points to avoid getting into the fine det=
ails of one particular existing proposal.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
What we&#8217;d appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions /understand=
ings are about:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">&middot;</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:black">The
 scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the address of the pr=
oxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address of the &#8216;lega=
cy&#8217; host it wants to communicate with)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">&middot;</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:black">If
 any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol&#8217;s fall=
back behaviour and coping with middleboxes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">&middot;</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:black">If
 we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">&middot;</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:black">If
 any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol&#8217;s sema=
ntics (other than the new option) eg in terms of<span class=3D"apple-conver=
ted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#sect=
ion-4"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824=
#section-4</span></a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">&middot;</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:black">If
 any impact is already envisaged on TCP&#8217;s semantics, or any mods are =
needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">&middot;</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:black">If
 any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport protocol&#8217=
;s semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?)<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">&middot;</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:black">Anything
 else that you think is needed in order to frame the work item<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie =
where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy,
 ie where neither host is MPTCP-enabled).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be &#8220;none&=
#8221; &#8211; we&#8217;ll end up with just a short paragraph or a few bull=
ets in
 the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
We&#8217;d also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja=
 and IESG will probably want the main input on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
Phil &amp; Yoshi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
>_______________________________________________<br>
multipathtcp mailing list<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#954F72">multipathtcp@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><=
br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;;color:black"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtc=
p"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#954F72">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multip=
athtcp</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_9dfd2be06d394b9a83cdf3cefdd4dc83HE105662emea1cdstintern_--


From nobody Sun Nov 13 23:39:29 2016
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>, "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>, "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "alan.ford@gmail.com" <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
Thread-Index: AdI7N1nf0aKADf/wTiuUhe6Yz4SJ8QATzjrQAK3WTAAAAHG7lAABsPAEAAs5vgAAACCjgAAKcFNg
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 07:39:21 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/multipathtcp/fXG3PDEu20SGtSGk8yFUHUPhymg>
Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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That is the scenario the BBF work is focused on...

Cheers
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hend=
erickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 4:38 PM
To: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be; philip.eardley@bt.com; alan.ford@gmai=
l.com
Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item

Indeed dual ended proxies are typically controlled by a single operator.

On 14/11/2016, 16:33, "multipathtcp on behalf of Olivier Bonaventure" <mult=
ipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be> wr=
ote:

    Phil,
   =20
    > something it would be good to have discussion about.
    >
    > We could restrict to where both proxies are under the control of the
    > same operator. I think this matches the current deployments, and it
    > would simplify the security and config
    >
   =20
    For the two-ended proxies, I agree that in current deployments the same=
=20
    operator controls both proxies.
   =20
   =20
   =20
    Olivier
   =20
    _______________________________________________
    multipathtcp mailing list
    multipathtcp@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
   =20

_______________________________________________
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multipathtcp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Fabien_Duch=c3=aane?= <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:49:58 +0900
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 5/5 - Communities
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Yep, that was my first thought, now the thing that bothers me here is 
the following:

You have 2 interfaces. Each does have v4 and v6 (like a lot of 
smartphones today).
So you use the v4's and advertise the v6's with the backup bit from 
proposal 3.

One of the v4 breaks, now you have 2 v6s that you could "unbackup" but 
which one do you "unbackup"?
You don't know which v6 is related to the v4 you just lost.


Fabien



On 11/14/2016 04:28 PM, Alan Ford wrote:
> You could advertise it with your ‘backup’ bit in proposal 3/5


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 5/5 - Communities
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On 11/14/2016 04:28 PM, Alan Ford wrote:

> You could advertise it with your ‘backup’ bit in proposal 3/5 :-)
>
>
On a lighter note: are you saying that you're supporting the proposal 
3/5 ? :)

Fabien


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "alan.ford@gmail.com" <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Hi Phil,

If you meant that the access networks are managed by the same operators, th=
en this is indeed a valid deployment model to start with.

BTW, this model is similar whether this implies single or dual ended proxie=
s:


=B7         For the single proxy: the operator provisions the host and mana=
ges the proxy located in the network.

=B7         For the dual proxy: The operator provisions the CPE and manages=
 the proxy located in the network.

Cheers,
Med

De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de phil=
ip.eardley@bt.com
Envoy=E9 : lundi 14 novembre 2016 08:14
=C0 : alan.ford@gmail.com
Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item


something it would be good to have discussion about.

We could restrict to where both proxies are under the control of the same o=
perator. I think this matches the current deployments, and it would simplif=
y the security and config





________________________________
From: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp-bounc=
es@ietf.org>> on behalf of philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.c=
om> <philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>>
Sent: 14 November 2016 06:32
To: alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>
Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item


i think we should move beyond "exploring whether it would be useful".



i'd like us to assess proposed solutions. i think we should say this is wha=
t we're doing - at the moment we've had quite a lot of discussion about one=
 proposal. we should give the chance for other proposals, and make the disc=
ussion more structured (what are the assessment criteria).



i also think we should explicitly exclude non-tcp traffic  (i think non-tcp=
 traffic is too big a topic for our WG)



phil





________________________________
From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>
Sent: 14 November 2016 06:11
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R
Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item

I think this work item is achievable by simply removing references to "at l=
east one end" from the existing charter item on the proxy. So the item woul=
d now read:

Finally, the working group will explore whether an MPTCP-aware
middlebox would be useful. For example, potentially helping MPTCP's
incremental deployment by allowing only one end host to be MPTCP-enabled
and the middlebox acts as an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which runs
TCP; and potentially helping some mobility scenarios, where the middle box
acts as an anchor between two MPTCP-enabled hosts. Alternatively, neither
end host could be MPTCP-enabled but a pair of proxies could work together t=
o
bring MPTCP benefits to such connections. The working group will detail wha=
t real
problems an MPTCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact the
Multipath TCP architecture (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be
justified as compared against alternative solutions to the problems, and
the likely feasibility of solving the technical and security issues.

In some ways, the two ended proxy work could even be seen as an extension o=
f the previous operational experience work within this WG.

Regards,
Alan

On 10 Nov 2016, at 19:17, philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.co=
m> wrote:

Hi,
Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active discus=
sion is reaching some common understanding?

We're trying to work out what a work item might look like, so would like to=
 understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario, & what c=
ommon agreements we'd assume & restrictions on how the solution works. This=
 seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we'd like discussion on t=
hese points to avoid getting into the fine details of one particular existi=
ng proposal.

What we'd appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions /understandings a=
re about:
*         The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the addr=
ess of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address of th=
e 'legacy' host it wants to communicate with)
*         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol'=
s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes
*         If we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option
*         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol'=
s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/rfc6824#section-4
*         If any impact is already envisaged on TCP's semantics, or any mod=
s are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc
*         If any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport pr=
otocol's semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?)
*         Anything else that you think is needed in order to frame the work=
 item

It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie =
where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, ie where neit=
her host is MPTCP-enabled).

This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be "none" - we'=
ll end up with just a short paragraph or a few bullets in the charter.

We'd also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and I=
ESG will probably want the main input on this.

Thanks
Phil & Yoshi
_______________________________________________
multipathtcp mailing list
multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Phil,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">If you meant that the access ne=
tworks are managed by the same operators, then this is indeed a valid deplo=
yment model to start with.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">BTW, this model is similar whet=
her this implies single or dual ended proxies:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">For the single proxy: t=
he operator provisions the host and manages the proxy located in the networ=
k.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">For the dual proxy: The=
 operator provisions the CPE and manages the proxy located in the network.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> mult=
ipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> philip.eardley@bt.com<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 14 novembre 2016 08:14<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> alan.ford@gmail.com<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> multipathtcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work i=
tem<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:black">something it would be good to have discussion about.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:black">We could restrict to where both proxies are under the control of=
 the same operator. I think this matches the current deployments, and it wo=
uld simplify the security and config<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgr=
ound:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:black">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blac=
k">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"> multipathtcp &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org">multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
 on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">philip.eardley@bt.co=
m</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">philip.eardley@bt.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 14 November 2016 06:32<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com">alan.ford@gmail.com</a><b=
r>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</=
a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<=
/span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">i think we should move beyond &quot;e=
xploring whether it would be useful&quot;.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">i'd like us to assess proposed soluti=
ons. i think&nbsp;we should say this&nbsp;is what we're doing&nbsp;-&nbsp;a=
t the moment we've had&nbsp;quite a&nbsp;lot&nbsp;of discussion about&nbsp;=
one proposal.&nbsp;we should
 give the chance for other proposals, and&nbsp;make the discussion more str=
uctured&nbsp;(what are the assessment criteria).&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">i also&nbsp;think we should&nbsp;expl=
icitly exclude&nbsp;non-tcp traffic&nbsp; (i think non-tcp traffic is too b=
ig a topic for our WG)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">phil<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgr=
ound:white">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:black">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blac=
k">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"> Alan Ford &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:alan.ford@gmail.com">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 14 November 2016 06:11<br>
<b>To:</b> Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</=
a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<=
/span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">I think this work=
 item is achievable by simply removing references to &#8220;at least one en=
d&#8221; from the existing charter item on the proxy. So the item would
 now read: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Finally, the w=
orking group will explore whether an MPTCP-aware</span></i><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">middlebox woul=
d be useful.&nbsp;For example, potentially helping MPTCP&#8217;s&nbsp;</spa=
n></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">incremental de=
ployment by&nbsp;allowing only one end host to be MPTCP-enabled&nbsp;</span=
></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">and the middle=
box acts as&nbsp;an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which runs&nbsp;</s=
pan></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">TCP; and poten=
tially&nbsp;helping some mobility scenarios, where the&nbsp;middle box&nbsp=
;</span></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">acts as an anc=
hor&nbsp;between two MPTCP-enabled hosts.&nbsp;Alternatively, neither&nbsp;=
</span></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">end host could=
 be MPTCP-enabled but a pair&nbsp;of proxies could work together to&nbsp;</=
span></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">bring MPTCP be=
nefits to such connections.&nbsp;The working group will detail what real</s=
pan></i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">problems an MP=
TCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact the</span></i><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Multipath TCP =
architecture (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be</span></i><span style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">justified as c=
ompared against alternative solutions to the problems, and</span></i><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">the likely fea=
sibility of solving the technical and security issues.</span></i><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">In some ways, the=
 two ended proxy work could even be seen as an extension of the previous op=
erational experience work within this WG.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Regards,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Alan<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On 10 Nov 2016, a=
t 19:17,
<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">philip.eardley@bt.com</a> wrote:<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active discus=
sion is reaching some common understanding?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
We&#8217;re trying to work out what a work item might look like, so would l=
ike to understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario,
 &amp; what common agreements we&#8217;d assume &amp; restrictions on how t=
he solution works. This seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we=
&#8217;d like discussion on these points to avoid getting into the fine det=
ails of one particular existing proposal.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
What we&#8217;d appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions /understand=
ings are about:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black">The
 scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the address of the pr=
oxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address of the &#8216;lega=
cy&#8217; host it wants to communicate with)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black">If
 any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol&#8217;s fall=
back behaviour and coping with middleboxes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black">If
 we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black">If
 any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol&#8217;s sema=
ntics (other than the new option) eg in terms of<span class=3D"apple-conver=
ted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#sect=
ion-4"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824=
#section-4</span></a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black">If
 any impact is already envisaged on TCP&#8217;s semantics, or any mods are =
needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black">If
 any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport protocol&#8217=
;s semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?)<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;background:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black">Anything
 else that you think is needed in order to frame the work item<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie =
where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy,
 ie where neither host is MPTCP-enabled).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be &#8220;none&=
#8221; &#8211; we&#8217;ll end up with just a short paragraph or a few bull=
ets in
 the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
We&#8217;d also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja=
 and IESG will probably want the main input on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
Phil &amp; Yoshi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
>_______________________________________________<br>
multipathtcp mailing list<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#954F72">multipathtcp@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><=
br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;;color:black"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtc=
p"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#954F72">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multip=
athtcp</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Mon Nov 14 22:23:36 2016
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From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:23:23 +0900
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/multipathtcp/02lpQYz1JxK6f6MOv6-LA1Rkrh8>
Subject: [multipathtcp] Coupled Slow Start for MPTCP, presentation in ICCRG up next
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Hi,

In the next session, this draft will be presented / discussed in ICCRG.
It doesn=E2=80=99t (currently? forever?) fit the MPTCP charter, but =
it=E2=80=99s about MPTCP, so MPTCP folks may want to see it.

Cheers,
Michael


> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
> Subject: [iccrg] LISA - draft-barik-mptcp-lisa
> Date: July 22, 2016 at 11:38:12 PM GMT+9
> To: multipathtcp@ietf.org, iccrg@irtf.org
> Resent-From: <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
>=20
> (chair hat on)
>=20
> [ This email goes to the MPTCP and ICCRG lists as an announcement. =
When answering, please discuss this in the ICCRG list. ]
>=20
>=20
> Dear all in MPTCP & ICCRG,
>=20
> Last Wednesday, in MPTCP, Runa Barik presented draft-barik-mptcp-lisa =
(LISA - a Linked Slow-Start Algorithm). For more documentation & code, =
see:
> http://heim.ifi.uio.no/runabk/lisa/
> LISA was first presented by Runa in Yokohama, with feedback that was =
addressed (with results shown in this presentation).
>=20
> (chair hat off, co-author hat on)
>=20
> LISA is a simple algorithm that prevents a large burst of packets =
going out during in MPTCP in slow start in one particular round-trip =
(when all but the first subflows join). E.g. with 4 subflows, MPTCP =
starts out sending using IW10 on the first subflow, and then after 3 =
RTTs, 3 more subflows start at the same time, adding 3 * IW10 on top of =
the ongoing slow start. This short but massive burst is consistently bad =
when we share a bottleneck, and often LISA also makes things better when =
not sharing a bottleneck.
>=20
> (co-author hat off, chair hat on)
>=20
> LISA doesn=E2=80=99t fit the current charter of MPTCP, so we decided =
to get this reviewed and discussed in ICCRG, and possibly (if the =
updated charter doesn=E2=80=99t fit congestion control work) published =
via ICCRG too.
>=20
> (both hats on)
>=20
> We would greatly appreciate if people could look at this work and =
provide comments on the draft soon.
>=20
> Thank you all in advance!
>=20
> Cheers,
> Michael
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> iccrg mailing list
> iccrg@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/iccrg


--Apple-Mail=_2533D07C-7B59-437D-9576-51A184176665
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In =
the next session, this draft will be presented / discussed in =
ICCRG.</div><div class=3D"">It doesn=E2=80=99t (currently? forever?) fit =
the MPTCP charter, but it=E2=80=99s about MPTCP, so MPTCP folks may want =
to see it.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"">Michael</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Begin forwarded message:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Michael Welzl &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no" =
class=3D"">michawe@ifi.uio.no</a>&gt;<br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">[iccrg] LISA - =
draft-barik-mptcp-lisa</b><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">July 22, 2016 at 11:38:12 PM =
GMT+9<br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:iccrg@irtf.org" =
class=3D"">iccrg@irtf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Resent-From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no" =
class=3D"">michawe@ifi.uio.no</a>&gt;<br class=3D""></span></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">(chair hat on)<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">[ This email goes to the MPTCP and ICCRG lists =
as an announcement. When answering, please discuss this in the ICCRG =
list. ]<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Dear all in MPTCP =
&amp; ICCRG,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Last Wednesday, in MPTCP, Runa =
Barik presented draft-barik-mptcp-lisa (LISA - a Linked Slow-Start =
Algorithm). For more documentation &amp; code, see:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://heim.ifi.uio.no/runabk/lisa/" =
class=3D"">http://heim.ifi.uio.no/runabk/lisa/</a><br class=3D"">LISA =
was first presented by Runa in Yokohama, with feedback that was =
addressed (with results shown in this presentation).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">(chair hat off, co-author hat on)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">LISA is a simple algorithm that prevents a large burst of =
packets going out during in MPTCP in slow start in one particular =
round-trip (when all but the first subflows join). E.g. with 4 subflows, =
MPTCP starts out sending using IW10 on the first subflow, and then after =
3 RTTs, 3 more subflows start at the same time, adding 3 * IW10 on top =
of the ongoing slow start. This short but massive burst is consistently =
bad when we share a bottleneck, and often LISA also makes things better =
when not sharing a bottleneck.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(co-author =
hat off, chair hat on)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">LISA doesn=E2=80=99t =
fit the current charter of MPTCP, so we decided to get this reviewed and =
discussed in ICCRG, and possibly (if the updated charter doesn=E2=80=99t =
fit congestion control work) published via ICCRG too.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">(both hats on)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">We would greatly =
appreciate if people could look at this work and provide comments on the =
draft soon.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thank you all in advance!<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Cheers,<br class=3D"">Michael<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">iccrg mailing list<br class=3D"">iccrg@irtf.org<br =
class=3D"">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/iccrg<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_2533D07C-7B59-437D-9576-51A184176665--


From nobody Mon Nov 14 23:19:13 2016
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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 23:19:09 -0800
From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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Hello,

On 14/11/16 - 06:14:17, Alan Ford wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> After discussion at IETF97, I think it’s clear that this proposal - the
> idea of “priority” - means different things to different people. For
> example:
> 
> a) A percentage split - but would that only kick in when one link is full?
> Or would all traffic always be split?
> b) Prioritising subflows, overflowing only when one is full
> c) QoS (latency, bandwidth, etc) values
> d) etc etc
> 
> Personally I think only (b) makes sense at the subflow level, everything
> else is far too complex to signal in a few bits. Whether it is of use to
> people in the real world, however, I don’t know, however!

I agree with you that signalling priorities in the sense of (b) is not
necessarily useful. Because, at the end it is then still left to the
decision of the implementer on how he translates the priorities into
scheduling.

I think that one missing piece in MPTCP today is the lack of control a
host can exercise on how the peer should schedule its traffic.

The backup-bit only enables seamless handover. But MPTCP's benefits go
beyond that. Especially for applications sending a thin stream, the delay
benefits can be huge (as has been mentioned in the IETF journal article), if
the scheduling takes RTT into account (while minimizing cell usage for power
& cost reasons).

Allowing to signal this will be a bigger exercise, but I believe
that it is necessary if we want longterm to go to a world where a client can
connect to any webserver (of any implementation) and use MPTCP.

> I also think it’s entirely feasible to achieve a lot of the traffic
> engineering here by using TCP control signals - ACKs and window size - to
> slow down communications. As a sender you can already control rate based
> on your local policy, and at the receiving end you could use ACKs, ECN,
> window, etc.

Ignoring potential issues with changing the window-sizes or using ECN for a
moment. Using such tricks would only work for bulk transfers. Thin streams
won't be able to reduce/increase the amount of traffic on the secondary subflow.


Cheers,
Christoph

> 
> This proposal needs a much clearer idea of what it’s trying to achieve
> before we could consider it for merging.
> 
> Regards, Alan
> 
> > On 14 Nov 2016, at 01:58, Fabien Duchêne <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Inline,
> > 
> > On 11/13/2016 08:51 AM, Christoph Paasch wrote:
> >> Hello, while I support adding more info to MPTCP to allow a
> >> finer-grained control of the peer's scheduling, I think the
> >> priority-bits should be defined in a more precise way.
> >> 
> >> I see the this work here as a way to allow for a more deterministic
> >> behavior when an MPTCP-client connects to a MPTCP-server. As of today,
> >> when I on my mobile device connect to a server that is outside of my
> >> control, the only way I can tell the server to schedule traffic in a
> >> certain way is by using the backup-bit. Upon which I can expect the
> >> server to not send traffic on this subflow unless the primary subflow
> >> is broken.  This kind of "configuration" is not sufficient for most
> >> use-cases.  I see the priorities as a way for the client to tell the
> >> server exactly what kind of scheduling it expects to meet a certain
> >> "QoS-requirement".  So, we should clearly specify what each priority
> >> means.
> > The way I wrote the draft was more like "ok, let's tell the server that,
> > if possible, I'd like to receive most on the trafic on this subflow,
> > then this one, then this one".  This is why I wrote
> > 
> > "The priority field MUST be interpreted as an unsigned integer value
> > with the highest numerical value being the most preferred one."
> > 
> > While I agree that we should be as specific as possible, I wonder how we
> > could be more explicit about this. Any idea?  If we are too specific,
> > like saying "always schedule on the highest priority subflow, until the
> > windows is full, then skip to the next one" we are actually writing a
> > strict priority scheduler, and I was hoping that we could leave the
> > priority open to more creative ways of handling the priorities.  It's a
> > MAY because I'm not sure that making the respect of the priority a MUST
> > would be interesting, for backward compatibility, but also because the
> > priorities of one host could clash with the other's own interest.
> > 
> >> If we leave the interpretation of the priority-bits open to the
> >> implementation, hosts still cannot rely on getting a certain service by
> >> the peer when set the priority bits.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Thoughts?
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Cheers, Christoph
> >> 
> > Cheers!
> > 
> > Fabien
> > 
> > _______________________________________________ multipathtcp mailing
> > list multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
> > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp>

> _______________________________________________
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <cpaasch@apple.com>, <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 08:20:04 +0000
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References: <581F2334.8010403@uclouvain.be> <20161113075145.GH4269@Chimay.local> <826bf9ab-e9b7-a89b-28de-676deece8a4b@uclouvain.be> <D0FA35FF-B17F-4F7F-92E1-D9FBB6E735A7@gmail.com>, <20161115071909.GV4269@Chimay.local>
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Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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i wonder if there are any lessons we can learn from ecn/dscp expereinces?=
=0A=
my rough impression is that =0A=
- a single bit is useful=0A=
- multiple qos levels haven't been as useful as might have expected. in ret=
rospect, at least some people think it would have been better to define cod=
epoints to have a particular meaning about the service carried, rather than=
 just relative levels. at least if one hopes it will work inter-domain.=0A=
=0A=
phil=0A=
________________________________________=0A=
From: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christoph P=
aasch <cpaasch@apple.com>=0A=
Sent: 15 November 2016 07:19=0A=
To: Alan Ford=0A=
Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org=0A=
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Prior=
ities=0A=
=0A=
Hello,=0A=
=0A=
On 14/11/16 - 06:14:17, Alan Ford wrote:=0A=
> Hi all,=0A=
>=0A=
> After discussion at IETF97, I think it=92s clear that this proposal - the=
=0A=
> idea of =93priority=94 - means different things to different people. For=
=0A=
> example:=0A=
>=0A=
> a) A percentage split - but would that only kick in when one link is full=
?=0A=
> Or would all traffic always be split?=0A=
> b) Prioritising subflows, overflowing only when one is full=0A=
> c) QoS (latency, bandwidth, etc) values=0A=
> d) etc etc=0A=
>=0A=
> Personally I think only (b) makes sense at the subflow level, everything=
=0A=
> else is far too complex to signal in a few bits. Whether it is of use to=
=0A=
> people in the real world, however, I don=92t know, however!=0A=
=0A=
I agree with you that signalling priorities in the sense of (b) is not=0A=
necessarily useful. Because, at the end it is then still left to the=0A=
decision of the implementer on how he translates the priorities into=0A=
scheduling.=0A=
=0A=
I think that one missing piece in MPTCP today is the lack of control a=0A=
host can exercise on how the peer should schedule its traffic.=0A=
=0A=
The backup-bit only enables seamless handover. But MPTCP's benefits go=0A=
beyond that. Especially for applications sending a thin stream, the delay=
=0A=
benefits can be huge (as has been mentioned in the IETF journal article), i=
f=0A=
the scheduling takes RTT into account (while minimizing cell usage for powe=
r=0A=
& cost reasons).=0A=
=0A=
Allowing to signal this will be a bigger exercise, but I believe=0A=
that it is necessary if we want longterm to go to a world where a client ca=
n=0A=
connect to any webserver (of any implementation) and use MPTCP.=0A=
=0A=
> I also think it=92s entirely feasible to achieve a lot of the traffic=0A=
> engineering here by using TCP control signals - ACKs and window size - to=
=0A=
> slow down communications. As a sender you can already control rate based=
=0A=
> on your local policy, and at the receiving end you could use ACKs, ECN,=
=0A=
> window, etc.=0A=
=0A=
Ignoring potential issues with changing the window-sizes or using ECN for a=
=0A=
moment. Using such tricks would only work for bulk transfers. Thin streams=
=0A=
won't be able to reduce/increase the amount of traffic on the secondary sub=
flow.=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Cheers,=0A=
Christoph=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> This proposal needs a much clearer idea of what it=92s trying to achieve=
=0A=
> before we could consider it for merging.=0A=
>=0A=
> Regards, Alan=0A=
>=0A=
> > On 14 Nov 2016, at 01:58, Fabien Duch=EAne <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be=
>=0A=
> > wrote:=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Hello,=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Inline,=0A=
> >=0A=
> > On 11/13/2016 08:51 AM, Christoph Paasch wrote:=0A=
> >> Hello, while I support adding more info to MPTCP to allow a=0A=
> >> finer-grained control of the peer's scheduling, I think the=0A=
> >> priority-bits should be defined in a more precise way.=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >> I see the this work here as a way to allow for a more deterministic=0A=
> >> behavior when an MPTCP-client connects to a MPTCP-server. As of today,=
=0A=
> >> when I on my mobile device connect to a server that is outside of my=
=0A=
> >> control, the only way I can tell the server to schedule traffic in a=
=0A=
> >> certain way is by using the backup-bit. Upon which I can expect the=0A=
> >> server to not send traffic on this subflow unless the primary subflow=
=0A=
> >> is broken.  This kind of "configuration" is not sufficient for most=0A=
> >> use-cases.  I see the priorities as a way for the client to tell the=
=0A=
> >> server exactly what kind of scheduling it expects to meet a certain=0A=
> >> "QoS-requirement".  So, we should clearly specify what each priority=
=0A=
> >> means.=0A=
> > The way I wrote the draft was more like "ok, let's tell the server that=
,=0A=
> > if possible, I'd like to receive most on the trafic on this subflow,=0A=
> > then this one, then this one".  This is why I wrote=0A=
> >=0A=
> > "The priority field MUST be interpreted as an unsigned integer value=0A=
> > with the highest numerical value being the most preferred one."=0A=
> >=0A=
> > While I agree that we should be as specific as possible, I wonder how w=
e=0A=
> > could be more explicit about this. Any idea?  If we are too specific,=
=0A=
> > like saying "always schedule on the highest priority subflow, until the=
=0A=
> > windows is full, then skip to the next one" we are actually writing a=
=0A=
> > strict priority scheduler, and I was hoping that we could leave the=0A=
> > priority open to more creative ways of handling the priorities.  It's a=
=0A=
> > MAY because I'm not sure that making the respect of the priority a MUST=
=0A=
> > would be interesting, for backward compatibility, but also because the=
=0A=
> > priorities of one host could clash with the other's own interest.=0A=
> >=0A=
> >> If we leave the interpretation of the priority-bits open to the=0A=
> >> implementation, hosts still cannot rely on getting a certain service b=
y=0A=
> >> the peer when set the priority bits.=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >> Thoughts?=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >> Cheers, Christoph=0A=
> >>=0A=
> > Cheers!=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Fabien=0A=
> >=0A=
> > _______________________________________________ multipathtcp mailing=0A=
> > list multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>=0A=
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp=0A=
> > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp>=0A=
=0A=
> _______________________________________________=0A=
> multipathtcp mailing list=0A=
> multipathtcp@ietf.org=0A=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp=0A=
=0A=
_______________________________________________=0A=
multipathtcp mailing list=0A=
multipathtcp@ietf.org=0A=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp=0A=


From nobody Tue Nov 15 00:34:58 2016
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References: <581F2334.8010403@uclouvain.be> <20161113075145.GH4269@Chimay.local> <826bf9ab-e9b7-a89b-28de-676deece8a4b@uclouvain.be> <D0FA35FF-B17F-4F7F-92E1-D9FBB6E735A7@gmail.com> <20161115071909.GV4269@Chimay.local>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/multipathtcp/B9srLRheeuzgXecc5pIH_OwvS-c>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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--------------3C6697891DCFF14B315F5C7D
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Hi all,

On 15/11/2016 16:19, Christoph Paasch wrote:

Hello,

On 14/11/16 - 06:14:17, Alan Ford wrote:


Hi all,

After discussion at IETF97, I think it=92s clear that this proposal - the
idea of =93priority=94 - means different things to different people. For
example:

a) A percentage split - but would that only kick in when one link is full?
Or would all traffic always be split?



b) Prioritising subflows, overflowing only when one is full
c) QoS (latency, bandwidth, etc) values
d) etc etc

>From my understanding of RFC6824 in it's current form, the priority does de=
pend on different use cases of the subflows, which is why it will mean diff=
erent things to people using the MP_PRIO API. The spec currently talks abou=
t 2 such cases. The default case being simultaneously sending data over all=
 subflows, but goes on to talk about an "all-or-nothing" failover subflows.

I think if these use cases are all we care about then that's fine and suffi=
cient. But the spec does suggest possible line prioritisation by cost too. =
In that situation, I believe the spec needs improving because often you don=
't want all or nothing on subflows which has a premium/cost attached to it.

Personally I think only (b) makes sense at the subflow level, everything
else is far too complex to signal in a few bits. Whether it is of use to
people in the real world, however, I don=92t know, however!

I agree, but I think there will be an appetite for more use cases than the =
priority is currently sufficient for.


I agree with you that signalling priorities in the sense of (b) is not
necessarily useful. Because, at the end it is then still left to the
decision of the implementer on how he translates the priorities into
scheduling.

I think that one missing piece in MPTCP today is the lack of control a
host can exercise on how the peer should schedule its traffic.

The backup-bit only enables seamless handover. But MPTCP's benefits go
beyond that. Especially for applications sending a thin stream, the delay
benefits can be huge (as has been mentioned in the IETF journal article), i=
f
the scheduling takes RTT into account (while minimizing cell usage for powe=
r
& cost reasons).

Allowing to signal this will be a bigger exercise, but I believe
that it is necessary if we want longterm to go to a world where a client ca=
n
connect to any webserver (of any implementation) and use MPTCP.

I agree.

--
Regards,
Martyn

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<p>Hi all,<br>
</p>
<p>On 15/11/2016 16:19, Christoph Paasch wrote:<br>
</p>
<blockquote cite=3D"mid:20161115071909.GV4269@Chimay.local" type=3D"cite">
<pre wrap=3D"">Hello,

On 14/11/16 - 06:14:17, Alan Ford wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<pre wrap=3D"">Hi all,

After discussion at IETF97, I think it=92s clear that this proposal - the
idea of =93priority=94 - means different things to different people. For
example:

a) A percentage split - but would that only kick in when one link is full?
Or would all traffic always be split?
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<ol>
</ol>
<blockquote cite=3D"mid:20161115071909.GV4269@Chimay.local" type=3D"cite">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<pre wrap=3D"">
b) Prioritising subflows, overflowing only when one is full
c) QoS (latency, bandwidth, etc) values
d) etc etc</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"></blockquote>
>From my understanding of RFC6824 in it's current form, the priority does de=
pend on different use cases of the subflows, which is why it will mean diff=
erent things to people using the MP_PRIO API. The spec currently talks abou=
t 2 such cases. The default case
 being simultaneously sending data over all subflows, but goes on to talk a=
bout an &quot;all-or-nothing&quot; failover subflows.<br>
<br>
I think if these use cases are all we care about then that's fine and suffi=
cient. But the spec does suggest possible line prioritisation by cost too. =
In that situation, I believe the spec needs improving because often you don=
't want all or nothing on subflows
 which has a premium/cost attached to it.<br>
<blockquote cite=3D"mid:20161115071909.GV4269@Chimay.local" type=3D"cite">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<pre wrap=3D"">Personally I think only (b) makes sense at the subflow level=
, everything
else is far too complex to signal in a few bits. Whether it is of use to
people in the real world, however, I don=92t know, however!</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
I agree, but I think there will be an appetite for more use cases than the =
priority is currently sufficient for.
<blockquote cite=3D"mid:20161115071909.GV4269@Chimay.local" type=3D"cite">
<pre wrap=3D"">
I agree with you that signalling priorities in the sense of (b) is not
necessarily useful. Because, at the end it is then still left to the
decision of the implementer on how he translates the priorities into
scheduling.

I think that one missing piece in MPTCP today is the lack of control a
host can exercise on how the peer should schedule its traffic.

The backup-bit only enables seamless handover. But MPTCP's benefits go
beyond that. Especially for applications sending a thin stream, the delay
benefits can be huge (as has been mentioned in the IETF journal article), i=
f
the scheduling takes RTT into account (while minimizing cell usage for powe=
r
&amp; cost reasons).

Allowing to signal this will be a bigger exercise, but I believe
that it is necessary if we want longterm to go to a world where a client ca=
n
connect to any webserver (of any implementation) and use MPTCP.</pre>
</blockquote>
I agree.<br>
<pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
Regards,
Martyn</pre>
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 08:56:57 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 09:36:48 +0000
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References: <581F2334.8010403@uclouvain.be> <20161113075145.GH4269@Chimay.local> <826bf9ab-e9b7-a89b-28de-676deece8a4b@uclouvain.be> <D0FA35FF-B17F-4F7F-92E1-D9FBB6E735A7@gmail.com> <20161115071909.GV4269@Chimay.local>
To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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Hi Christoph,

> On 15 Nov 2016, at 07:19, Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> On 14/11/16 - 06:14:17, Alan Ford wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> After discussion at IETF97, I think it=E2=80=99s clear that this =
proposal - the
>> idea of =E2=80=9Cpriority=E2=80=9D - means different things to =
different people. For
>> example:
>>=20
>> a) A percentage split - but would that only kick in when one link is =
full?
>> Or would all traffic always be split?
>> b) Prioritising subflows, overflowing only when one is full
>> c) QoS (latency, bandwidth, etc) values
>> d) etc etc
>>=20
>> Personally I think only (b) makes sense at the subflow level, =
everything
>> else is far too complex to signal in a few bits. Whether it is of use =
to
>> people in the real world, however, I don=E2=80=99t know, however!
>=20
> I agree with you that signalling priorities in the sense of (b) is not
> necessarily useful. Because, at the end it is then still left to the
> decision of the implementer on how he translates the priorities into
> scheduling.
>=20
> I think that one missing piece in MPTCP today is the lack of control a
> host can exercise on how the peer should schedule its traffic.
>=20
> The backup-bit only enables seamless handover. But MPTCP's benefits go
> beyond that. Especially for applications sending a thin stream, the =
delay
> benefits can be huge (as has been mentioned in the IETF journal =
article), if
> the scheduling takes RTT into account (while minimizing cell usage for =
power
> & cost reasons).
>=20
> Allowing to signal this will be a bigger exercise, but I believe
> that it is necessary if we want longterm to go to a world where a =
client can
> connect to any webserver (of any implementation) and use MPTCP.

So what semantics would you assign to the priorities? Or are you saying =
we should leave that up to implementors"

=E2=80=9CThis defines the priority of each subflow with relation to each =
other; how a receiver of this option translates this into the scheduling =
is implementation-specific."

Is that useful to you as an implementor, do you feel? For interop, when =
you don=E2=80=99t know what the far end will do with this information, =
would it be useful?

Are there any fundamentals we could/should specify?

Regards,
Alan


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Christoph,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
15 Nov 2016, at 07:19, Christoph Paasch &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Hello,</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">On 14/11/16 - 06:14:17, Alan Ford =
wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Hi =
all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">After discussion at IETF97, I think =
it=E2=80=99s clear that this proposal - the<br class=3D"">idea of =
=E2=80=9Cpriority=E2=80=9D - means different things to different people. =
For<br class=3D"">example:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">a) A percentage =
split - but would that only kick in when one link is full?<br =
class=3D"">Or would all traffic always be split?<br class=3D"">b) =
Prioritising subflows, overflowing only when one is full<br class=3D"">c) =
QoS (latency, bandwidth, etc) values<br class=3D"">d) etc etc<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Personally I think only (b) makes sense at the =
subflow level, everything<br class=3D"">else is far too complex to =
signal in a few bits. Whether it is of use to<br class=3D"">people in =
the real world, however, I don=E2=80=99t know, however!<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">I agree with you that signalling priorities in =
the sense of (b) is not</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">necessarily useful. Because, at the end =
it is then still left to the</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">decision of the implementer on how he =
translates the priorities into</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">scheduling.</span><br style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">I think that one missing piece in MPTCP today is =
the lack of control a</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">host can exercise on how the peer should =
schedule its traffic.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">The backup-bit only enables seamless handover. =
But MPTCP's benefits go</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">beyond that. Especially for applications =
sending a thin stream, the delay</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">benefits can be huge (as has been =
mentioned in the IETF journal article), if</span><br style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">the scheduling takes RTT into account =
(while minimizing cell usage for power</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">&amp; cost reasons).</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">Allowing to signal this will be a bigger =
exercise, but I believe</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">that it is necessary if we want longterm =
to go to a world where a client can</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">connect to any webserver (of any =
implementation) and use MPTCP.</span></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div>So what semantics would you assign to the =
priorities? Or are you saying we should leave that up to =
implementors"</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>=E2=80=9CThis defines =
the priority of each subflow with relation to each other; how a receiver =
of this option translates this into the scheduling is =
implementation-specific."</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Is that =
useful to you as an implementor, do you feel? For interop, when you =
don=E2=80=99t know what the far end will do with this information, would =
it be useful?</div></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Are there any =
fundamentals we could/should specify?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Alan</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Robert Skog <robert.skog@ericsson.com>
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Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <robert.skog@ericsson.com>, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, <Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>, <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Subject: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "robert.skog@ericsson.com" <robert.skog@ericsson.com>, "Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com" <Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>, "alan.ford@gmail.com" <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: MPTCP carrying UDP
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:40:01 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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From nobody Tue Nov 15 06:35:32 2016
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From: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 06:35:23 -0800
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Hi Med,
Sorry for my slow response. I put comments in lines.

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 11:20 PM,  <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
> Hi Yoshi,
>
> Please see inline.
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Yoshifumi Nishida [mailto:nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp]
>> Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 10 novembre 2016 20:21
>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>> Cc : philip.eardley@bt.com; multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] Questions on https://tools.ietf.org/html/draf=
t-
>> boucadair-mptcp-plain-mode-09
>>
>> Hi Med,
>>
>> Thanks for the clarification. So, in my understanding,
>> off-path/on-path concept is like the followings.  (please point out if
>> I miss something)
>>
>> on-path (implicit mode) ... The client doesn't need to know the
>> presence of MCP. The adpp just specifies the server address for the
>> end point of mptcp connection.
>
> [Med] Yes, this is only for the initial subflow. Subsequent subflows will=
 use an address of the proxy.
>
>>
>> off-path (explicit mode) ... The client needs to know the presence of
>> MCP. The app needs to use MCP's address for the destination. It also
>> need to get MCP's address (via DHCP or something else) and tells mptcp
>> stack to put it in MP_CONVERT option (via API?)
>
> [Med] this may be one way to implement it, but this is not my favorite on=
e. I suggest the following:
> * The application does not need to know about the on-off/path modes.
> * This is handled at the MPTCP service level: if an address is configured=
 via DHCP (or other means), it will behave in the Explicit mode.
> * MP_CONVERT option(s) are inserted by the MPTCP server accordingly.

Hmm. OK. But, DHCP is outside of mptcp. How the info from DHCP will be
delivered to mptcp without using API?

>> In this case, I think the off-path clients need to know that they are
>> off-path nodes and need to rely on MCP *before* communication starts.
>
> [Med] This is typically an information that is provided during network at=
tachment, etc. For example,
> * a cellular device can retrieve the MCP information during the PDP conte=
xt activation by means of a dedicated PCO Information Element.
> * a CPE will retrieve this information when it bootstraps.
>
> Note that  the client needs DNS information and other important service e=
lements before to make use of a service. That's not particular to MPTCP.
>
>> But, I'm not very sure how they get such knowledge.
>
> [Med] Same as for DNS and other services (SBC, etc.). Do you foresee any =
particular issue?

i might miss something here. but, please let me explain a bit more.
BTW, I am looking at the figure 1 in the draft.
Let's say when H1 got address via DHCP, it found a MCP address in the
option. H1 doesn't know RM supports mptcp or not.
So, it use MCP as destination for mptcp connection. But, when RM
happens to be a mptcp node, this will be suboptimal.

To avoid this, I guess H1 needs to go into on-path mode (ignore MCP
info and use RM for destination) for this RM.
But, this might mean H1 will need to change modes based on
destinations and looks tricky.

--
Yoshi


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To: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
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From nobody Tue Nov 15 07:11:29 2016
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From: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 07:11:05 -0800
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] LISA - Linked Slow-Start for MPTCP => ICCRG
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Hello,
I've tried to ask a naive question at the meeting, but I missed the
chance due to time restriction..

If the paths don't share a bottleneck, i am guessing it might be too
conservative especially when the paths are not competed with other
flows.
I am wondering why this is slightly conservative and doesn't hurt.
Some cases should be true, but I just thought some cases are not.
--
Yoshi

On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 12:40 AM, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> LISA is a simple algorithm that couples MPTCP subflows in slow-start, to =
reduce bursts that happen when multiple sub-flows start up with a delay and=
 all send their IW, all in SS.
> We found this effect to be generally bad (i.e., improved with LISA :-) ) =
when subflows do share a bottleneck, and we find that this slightly more co=
nservative behavior also doesn't hurt (actually, sometimes it's a benefit) =
when they do *not* share a bottleneck. After all, slow-start is very aggres=
sive anyway - is it really so important for the 2nd, 3rd... subflow of MPTC=
P to be  *that* aggressive?
>
> We presented it to MPTCP at the last IETF, and in Yokohama.
> There's a draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-01
> and a page with slides, a published paper with results, and code:  http:/=
/heim.ifi.uio.no/runabk/lisa/
>
> The way ahead, as agreed with the MPTCP chairs, is to either publish via =
MPTCP if their future charter will allow, or else publish this via ICCRG.
> Either way, for now, discussion of this draft should happen in the ICCRG =
mailing list. We authors would greatly appreciate feedback - so far, we did=
n't get many comments!
>
> Cheers,
> Michael (with Runa & Simone)
>
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
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BTW, just FYI.. the texts I showed during the meeting were a slightly
different and doesn't have socket operation term.
I thought about it the night before the meeting, but couldn't come up
with other words. So, I decided to omit it as I thought this part is
probably not very crucial. But, of course, better terms are welcome.

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-mptcp-chair-slide-01.p=
df
--
Yoshi

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)
<michael.scharf@nokia.com> wrote:
> As far as I recall, I think the term "socket operation" was intentionally=
 used instead of "socket option", since it was considered to be applicable =
to any TCP API, e.g., also the APIs used by high-level programming language=
s such as Java.
>
> The feedback was that the term "socket option" is not applicable to all T=
CP stacks. And even on TCP stacks that use the socket interface, many appli=
cations may have no access to socket options since they use a more abstract=
 API (e.g., a library). The objective of RFC 6897 was to apply to all poten=
tial TCP stacks.
>
> Possibly better terms can be found.
>
> Michael
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> philip.eardley@bt.com
>> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 6:10 AM
>> To: fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be; multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
>>
>> re socket operations.
>> this is the term used in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#section-5.3
>> happy to use whatever term is clearest - operations, options or sometihi=
ng
>> else!
>> phil
>> ________________________________________
>> From: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Fabien D=
uch=C3=AAne
>> <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
>> Sent: 14 November 2016 02:03
>> To: multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> On 11/13/2016 08:31 AM, Christoph Paasch wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > On 09/11/16 - 10:21:42, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
>> >> Following the earlier discussion, there is support to add a charter i=
tem as
>> follows:
>> >> <<RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for MPTCP-=
aware
>> applications, including a set of socket operations. Now there is more
>> experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will re-visit this work, a=
nd
>> consider adding more advanced socket operations. The document will be
>> Informational.>>
>> >> If you disagree with this being added, or suggest some mod to this it=
em,
>> please say.
>> > I support this work as well.
>> >
>> > But, I also agree with Mirja's comment that "socket operations" is not=
 a
>> > well-defined term. I guess, what has been meant was "socket options" -=
 the
>> > ones that are available in many operating systems.
>> >
>> > I think the API should not limit itself to a specific way on how to
>> > configure the stack (e.g., through socket-options, ioctl, netlink,...)=
.
>> > But rather be agnostic as to the technical details on how the higher
>> > layer configures/controls the MPTCP-stack.
>> >
>>
>> I support this work and I agree with Christoph and Mirja.
>> > Christoph
>> >
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Fabien
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> multipathtcp mailing list
>> multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> multipathtcp mailing list
>> multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
>
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:55:13 +0000
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
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Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>, "Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com" <Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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As I said at IETF95 and will say again now, MPTCP provides a TCP =
service: stream-oriented, reliable, whereas UDP is datagram-oriented, =
and unreliable.

"Mapping" one to the other cannot be directly done since the transports =
have fundamentally different semantics.

You can tunnel UDP over TCP, as long as you maintain packet boundaries. =
This gains reliability (which may or may not be a gain, depending on =
what you are trying to achieve with UDP - e.g. with RTP, you really =
don=E2=80=99t care about reliability, you are about timeliness). =
However, you must maintain the packet boundaries - UDP is not a stream.

Mapping a datagram-oriented transport to a stream-oriented transport is =
a generic problem and well out of scope of the MPTCP working group. =
There is (deliberately) nothing about MPTCP=E2=80=99s service model =
which is different to TCP, and therefore it is unlikely there would be =
anything different regarding mapping UDP to MPTCP as mapping UDP to TCP.

A lot of UDP uses - such as RTP - would be distinctly unhappy with the =
TCP model of retransmissions. Transparently providing this mapping would =
break assumption from the application layer.

Regards,
Alan

> On 15 Nov 2016, at 12:40, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>=20
> Re-,
> =20
> I have one comment about the target applications: QUIC is definitely =
one.
> =20
> For the VoIP case (RTP to be more accurate), there is already a =
candidate solution: Multipath RTP =
(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-mprtp-03 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-mprtp-03>).
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t have results to share because we are in a chicken/egg =
situation: implementers are asking for a stable specification to play =
with.
> =20
> Cheers,
> Med
> =20
> De : philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]=20
> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 15 novembre 2016 12:51
> =C3=80 : robert.skog@ericsson.com; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; =
Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com; alan.ford@gmail.com
> Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org
> Objet : MPTCP carrying UDP
> =20
> (I changed the Subject line of the email)
> =20
> Do people have any experimental results /experiences they could share =
of running UDP applications over MPTCP sub-flows?  Would be interested =
to hear about the issues. I guess VoIP and Quic would be the most =
interesting ones. Whether the experiments are with only one path being =
used at once, or multiple. etc
> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: Robert Skog [mailto:robert.skog@ericsson.com =
<mailto:robert.skog@ericsson.com>]=20
> Sent: 15 November 2016 10:09
> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com =
<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com =
<mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>; Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R =
<philip.eardley@bt.com <mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>>; =
alan.ford@gmail.com <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>
> Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
> =20
> +1
> We see a need to solve UDP in several places, so having a separate =
specification can help this moving forward.
> =20
> Cheers,
> /Robert
> =20
> From: multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of =
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: den 15 november 2016 09:57
> To: Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com =
<mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>; philip.eardley@bt.com =
<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>; alan.ford@gmail.com =
<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>
> Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
> =20
> Hi Markus, all,
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m on the same page that non-tcp traffic should be considered =
in scope. At least, the UDP case should be investigated. I remember =
there was interest in BA meeting about the UDP part =
(https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/minutes/minutes-95-mptcp =
<https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/minutes/minutes-95-mptcp>).
> =20
> An option I see is to consider advancing the use of MPTCP to convey =
UDP flows in a separate EXPERIMENTAL specification that will be =
cross-reviewed with other WGs (intarea, tsvwg). Having that base =
specification will help having interoperable implementations that will =
be used to carry experimentations.
> =20
> Those experiments will help to determine whether the proposed solution =
is complex/simple, viable/non-viable, failed/successful, etc.
> =20
> Let=E2=80=99s give it a try.
> =20
> Cheers,
> Med
> =20
> De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org>] De la part de =
Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com <mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>
> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 15 novembre 2016 08:58
> =C3=80 : philip.eardley@bt.com <mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>; =
alan.ford@gmail.com <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>
> Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
> =20
> Phil,
> =20
> If you feel it would take too long and to be too complex to achieve in =
a reasonable timeframe, we are ok with excluding non-tcp traffic, =
however, for our total solution we do requires also non-tcp traffic to =
be sent over multiple paths. We could argue that we can use a different =
mechanisms specifically for UDP and other protocols, but it would be =
nice to have as single MPTCP-based solution. (my gut feeling is that we =
would need to replicate a lot of MPTCP scheduling features into a new =
mechanism).
> =20
> Marcus
> =20
> Von: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org>> im Auftrag von =
"philip.eardley@bt.com <mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>" =
<philip.eardley@bt.com <mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>>
> Datum: Montag, 14. November 2016 um 07:32
> An: "alan.ford@gmail.com <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>" =
<alan.ford@gmail.com <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>
> Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>" =
<multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
> Betreff: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
> =20
> i think we should move beyond "exploring whether it would be useful".
> =20
> i'd like us to assess proposed solutions. i think we should say this =
is what we're doing - at the moment we've had quite a lot of discussion =
about one proposal. we should give the chance for other proposals, and =
make the discussion more structured (what are the assessment criteria). =20=

> =20
> i also think we should explicitly exclude non-tcp traffic  (i think =
non-tcp traffic is too big a topic for our WG)
> =20
> phil
> =20
> =20
> From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>
> Sent: 14 November 2016 06:11
> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R
> Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
> =20
> I think this work item is achievable by simply removing references to =
=E2=80=9Cat least one end=E2=80=9D from the existing charter item on the =
proxy. So the item would now read:
> =20
> Finally, the working group will explore whether an MPTCP-aware
> middlebox would be useful. For example, potentially helping MPTCP=E2=80=99=
s=20
> incremental deployment by allowing only one end host to be =
MPTCP-enabled=20
> and the middlebox acts as an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which =
runs=20
> TCP; and potentially helping some mobility scenarios, where the middle =
box=20
> acts as an anchor between two MPTCP-enabled hosts. Alternatively, =
neither=20
> end host could be MPTCP-enabled but a pair of proxies could work =
together to=20
> bring MPTCP benefits to such connections. The working group will =
detail what real
> problems an MPTCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact =
the
> Multipath TCP architecture (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be
> justified as compared against alternative solutions to the problems, =
and
> the likely feasibility of solving the technical and security issues.
> =20
> In some ways, the two ended proxy work could even be seen as an =
extension of the previous operational experience work within this WG.
> =20
> Regards,
> Alan
> =20
> On 10 Nov 2016, at 19:17, philip.eardley@bt.com =
<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com> wrote:
> =20
> Hi,
> Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active =
discussion is reaching some common understanding?
> =20
> We=E2=80=99re trying to work out what a work item might look like, so =
would like to understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the =
scenario, & what common agreements we=E2=80=99d assume & restrictions on =
how the solution works. This seems important to frame work by WG. If =
possible we=E2=80=99d like discussion on these points to avoid getting =
into the fine details of one particular existing proposal.
> =20
> What we=E2=80=99d appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions =
/understandings are about:
> =C2=B7         The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host =
knows the address of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows =
the address of the =E2=80=98legacy=E2=80=99 host it wants to communicate =
with)
> =C2=B7         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP =
protocol=E2=80=99s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes
> =C2=B7         If we can agree that the solution is based on a new =
MPTCP option
> =C2=B7         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP =
protocol=E2=80=99s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4> =20
> =C2=B7         If any impact is already envisaged on TCP=E2=80=99s =
semantics, or any mods are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, =
etc
> =C2=B7         If any impact is already envisaged on other existing =
transport protocol=E2=80=99s semantics (presuming people still would =
like non-TCP in scope?)
> =C2=B7         Anything else that you think is needed in order to =
frame the work item
> =20
> It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended =
proxy, ie where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, =
ie where neither host is MPTCP-enabled).
> =20
> This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be =
=E2=80=9Cnone=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 we=E2=80=99ll end up with just a short =
paragraph or a few bullets in the charter.
> =20
> We=E2=80=99d also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, =
but Mirja and IESG will probably want the main input on this.
> =20
> Thanks
> Phil & Yoshi
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org <mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp>
> =20


--Apple-Mail=_7E2001AF-044A-41BF-AAD1-0E7CA01F1273
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">As I said at IETF95 and will say again now, MPTCP provides a =
TCP service: stream-oriented, reliable, whereas UDP is =
datagram-oriented, and unreliable.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">"Mapping" one to the other cannot be =
directly done since the transports have fundamentally different =
semantics.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You =
can <i class=3D"">tunnel</i>&nbsp;UDP over TCP, as long as you maintain =
packet boundaries. This gains reliability (which may or may not be a =
gain, depending on what you are trying to achieve with UDP - e.g. with =
RTP, you really don=E2=80=99t care about reliability, you are about =
timeliness). However, you must maintain the packet boundaries - UDP is =
not a stream.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Mapping a datagram-oriented transport to a stream-oriented =
transport is a generic problem and well out of scope of the MPTCP =
working group. There is (deliberately) nothing about MPTCP=E2=80=99s =
service model which is different to TCP, and therefore it is unlikely =
there would be anything different regarding mapping UDP to MPTCP as =
mapping UDP to TCP.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">A lot of UDP uses - such as RTP - would be distinctly unhappy =
with the TCP model of retransmissions. Transparently providing this =
mapping would break assumption from the application layer.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Alan</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 15 Nov 2016, at 12:40, <a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">Re-,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier =
New';" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">I have one comment about =
the target applications: QUIC is definitely one.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">For the VoIP case (RTP to be =
more accurate), there is already a candidate solution: Multipath RTP (<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-mprtp-03" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-mprtp-03</a>).<o=
:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t have results to =
share because we are in a chicken/egg situation: implementers are asking =
for a stable specification to play with.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">Cheers,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">Med<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>=
 [<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mardi 15 novembre 2016 =
12:51<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">=C3=80&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:robert.skog@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">robert.skog@ericsson.com</a>; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; <a =
href=3D"mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com" =
class=3D"">Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Objet&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>MPTCP carrying UDP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">(I changed the =
Subject line of the email)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Do =
people have any experimental results /experiences they could share of =
running UDP applications over MPTCP sub-flows? &nbsp;Would be interested =
to hear about the issues. I guess VoIP and Quic would be the most =
interesting ones. Whether the experiments are with only one path being =
used at once, or multiple. etc<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, =
225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Robert Skog [<a =
href=3D"mailto:robert.skog@ericsson.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:robert.skog@ericsson.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>15 =
November 2016 10:09<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com</a>; =
Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RE: [multipathtcp] Towards =
a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">We see a need to =
solve UDP in several places, so having a separate specification can help =
this moving forward.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Cheers,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">/Robert<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, =
225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>multipathtcp [<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>den=
 15 november 2016 09:57<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [multipathtcp] Towards =
a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">Hi Markus, all,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m on the same page =
that non-tcp traffic should be considered in scope. At least, the UDP =
case should be investigated. I remember there was interest in BA meeting =
about the UDP part (<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/minutes/minutes-95-mptcp" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/minutes/minutes-95-mptcp</a=
>).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">An option I see is to =
consider advancing the use of MPTCP to convey UDP flows in a separate =
EXPERIMENTAL specification that will be cross-reviewed with other WGs =
(intarea, tsvwg). Having that base specification will help having =
interoperable implementations that will be used to carry =
experimentations.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">Those experiments will help to determine =
whether the proposed solution is complex/simple, viable/non-viable, =
failed/successful, etc.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">Let=E2=80=99s give it a try.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">Cheers,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">Med<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>multipathtcp [<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">De la part =
de</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mardi 15 novembre 2016 =
08:58<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">=C3=80&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Objet&nbsp;:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [multipathtcp] Towards =
a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel it would take =
too long and to be too complex to achieve in a reasonable timeframe, we =
are ok with excluding non-tcp traffic, however, for our total solution =
we do requires also non-tcp traffic to be sent over multiple paths. We =
could argue that we can use a different mechanisms specifically for UDP =
and other protocols, but it would be nice to have as single MPTCP-based =
solution. (my gut feeling is that we would need to replicate a lot of =
MPTCP scheduling features into a new mechanism).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Marcus<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Von:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">multipathtcp =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; im Auftrag von "<a =
href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Datum:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Montag, 14. November =
2016 um 07:32<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">An:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Betreff:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [multipathtcp] =
Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">i think we should move beyond =
"exploring whether it would be useful".<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">i'd like us =
to assess proposed solutions. i think&nbsp;we should say this&nbsp;is =
what we're doing&nbsp;-&nbsp;at the moment we've had&nbsp;quite =
a&nbsp;lot&nbsp;of discussion about&nbsp;one proposal.&nbsp;we should =
give the chance for other proposals, and&nbsp;make the discussion more =
structured&nbsp;(what are the assessment criteria).&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">i =
also&nbsp;think we should&nbsp;explicitly exclude&nbsp;non-tcp =
traffic&nbsp; (i think non-tcp traffic is too big a topic for our =
WG)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center;"><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" =
align=3D"center" class=3D""></span></div><div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Alan Ford &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">alan.ford@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>14 November 2016 06:11<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [multipathtcp] Towards =
a Multipath TCP Proxy work item</span><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">I think this =
work item is achievable by simply removing references to =E2=80=9Cat =
least one end=E2=80=9D from the existing charter item on the proxy. So =
the item would now read:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" =
class=3D"">Finally, the working group will explore whether an =
MPTCP-aware</span></i><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">middlebox =
would be useful.&nbsp;For example, potentially helping =
MPTCP=E2=80=99s&nbsp;</span></i><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">incremental =
deployment by&nbsp;allowing only one end host to be =
MPTCP-enabled&nbsp;</span></i><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">and the =
middlebox acts as&nbsp;an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which =
runs&nbsp;</span></i><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">TCP; and =
potentially&nbsp;helping some mobility scenarios, where the&nbsp;middle =
box&nbsp;</span></i><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">acts as an =
anchor&nbsp;between two MPTCP-enabled hosts.&nbsp;Alternatively, =
neither&nbsp;</span></i><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">end host =
could be MPTCP-enabled but a pair&nbsp;of proxies could work together =
to&nbsp;</span></i><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">bring =
MPTCP benefits to such connections.&nbsp;The working group will detail =
what real</span></i><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">problems =
an MPTCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact =
the</span></i><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">Multipath =
TCP architecture (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be</span></i><span =
lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">justified as compared against alternative =
solutions to the problems, and</span></i><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">the likely =
feasibility of solving the technical and security =
issues.</span></i><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" =
class=3D"">In some ways, the two ended proxy work could even be seen as =
an extension of the previous operational experience work within this =
WG.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">Regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">Alan<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" =
class=3D"">On 10 Nov 2016, at 19:17,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">philip.eardley@bt.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very =
active discussion is reaching some common understanding?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">We=E2=80=99re trying to =
work out what a work item might look like, so would like to understand =
what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario, &amp; what common =
agreements we=E2=80=99d assume &amp; restrictions on how the solution =
works. This seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we=E2=80=99d =
like discussion on these points to avoid getting into the fine details =
of one particular existing proposal.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">What we=E2=80=99d =
appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions /understandings are =
about:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: =
36pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Symbol;" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: =
7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the =
address of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the =
address of the =E2=80=98legacy=E2=80=99 host it wants to communicate =
with)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: =
36pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Symbol;" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: =
7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If=
 any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol=E2=80=99s =
fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 36pt;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Symbol;" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: =
7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If=
 we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 36pt;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Symbol;" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: =
7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If=
 any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol=E2=80=99s =
semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
windowtext;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 36pt;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Symbol;" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: =
7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If=
 any impact is already envisaged on TCP=E2=80=99s semantics, or any mods =
are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 36pt;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Symbol;" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: =
7pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If=
 any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport =
protocol=E2=80=99s semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP =
in scope?)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-left: 36pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-indent: -18pt;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Anything else that you think is needed in order to frame the =
work item<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It may be clearer to do =
this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie where only one host =
is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, ie where neither host is =
MPTCP-enabled).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can =
be =E2=80=9Cnone=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 we=E2=80=99ll end up with just a =
short paragraph or a few bullets in the charter.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">We=E2=80=99d also have to =
work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and IESG will =
probably want the main input on this.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil &amp; Yoshi<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">multipathtcp mailing list<br class=3D""></span><span =
lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</span></a></span><span lang=3D"DE" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp</span></a><o=
:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: MPTCP carrying UDP
Thread-Index: AQHSP1itRuQupPIWbkWN6Ohhosi+d6DaM4Sg
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 16:12:48 +0000
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Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>, "Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com" <Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
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Thread-Topic: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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Subject: [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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Hi,
Following our discussion on yesterday's WG meeting, here is some proposed t=
ext for the charter:-


MPTCP is now seeing widespread deployment in networks to bond together two =
accesses, such as fixed and mobile broadband. The scenario typically featur=
es two proxies, one in the home gateway ('CPE') and one in the network, bot=
h under the control of the operator. The WG will analyse proposed solutions=
 for this scenario by producing:-

* assessment criteria for solutions; support of non-TCP traffic is not a cr=
iteria. The WG Chairs will produce the initial version.

* analysis of proposed solutions against these criteria, as well as what up=
dates they would require to RFC6824bis.  As a result, the WG may agree to g=
o forward with the favoured solution.

Comments?
Thanks
Phil & Yoshi

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Following our discussion on yesterday&#8217;s WG mee=
ting, here is some proposed text for the charter:-<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">MPTCP is now seeing widespread deployment in netw=
orks to bond together two accesses, such as fixed and mobile broadband. The=
 scenario typically features two proxies, one in the home gateway (&#8216;C=
PE&#8217;) and one in the network, both under
 the control of the operator. The WG will analyse proposed solutions for th=
is scenario by producing:-<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">* assessment criteria for solutions; support of n=
on-TCP traffic is not a criteria. The WG Chairs will produce the initial ve=
rsion.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">* analysis of proposed solutions against these cr=
iteria, as well as what updates they would require to RFC6824bis. &nbsp;As =
a result, the WG may agree to go forward with the favoured solution.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comments?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil &amp; Yoshi<o:p></o:p></p>
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From nobody Tue Nov 15 08:45:49 2016
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To: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>, "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
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From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
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FWIW, the operation IMO should be referred to as "connection
configuration" or "connection parameters".

A socket is defined in RFC793 as an IP address and port. A connection is
defined by *two* sockets.

The Unix "socket" data structure and commands configure parameters for
an OS interface to a connection.

Joe


On 11/15/2016 7:23 AM, Yoshifumi Nishida wrote:
> BTW, just FYI.. the texts I showed during the meeting were a slightly
> different and doesn't have socket operation term.
> I thought about it the night before the meeting, but couldn't come up
> with other words. So, I decided to omit it as I thought this part is
> probably not very crucial. But, of course, better terms are welcome.
>
> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-mptcp-chair-slide-01.pdf
> --
> Yoshi
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)
> <michael.scharf@nokia.com> wrote:
>> As far as I recall, I think the term "socket operation" was intentionally used instead of "socket option", since it was considered to be applicable to any TCP API, e.g., also the APIs used by high-level programming languages such as Java.
>>
>> The feedback was that the term "socket option" is not applicable to all TCP stacks. And even on TCP stacks that use the socket interface, many applications may have no access to socket options since they use a more abstract API (e.g., a library). The objective of RFC 6897 was to apply to all potential TCP stacks.
>>
>> Possibly better terms can be found.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>> philip.eardley@bt.com
>>> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 6:10 AM
>>> To: fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be; multipathtcp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
>>>
>>> re socket operations.
>>> this is the term used in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6897#section-5.3
>>> happy to use whatever term is clearest - operations, options or sometihing
>>> else!
>>> phil
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Fabien Duchêne
>>> <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
>>> Sent: 14 November 2016 02:03
>>> To: multipathtcp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Adding a new work item on MPTCP API
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/13/2016 08:31 AM, Christoph Paasch wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> On 09/11/16 - 10:21:42, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote:
>>>>> Following the earlier discussion, there is support to add a charter item as
>>> follows:
>>>>> <<RFC6897 defined an optional, basic application interface for MPTCP-aware
>>> applications, including a set of socket operations. Now there is more
>>> experience of how MPTCP is being used, the WG will re-visit this work, and
>>> consider adding more advanced socket operations. The document will be
>>> Informational.>>
>>>>> If you disagree with this being added, or suggest some mod to this item,
>>> please say.
>>>> I support this work as well.
>>>>
>>>> But, I also agree with Mirja's comment that "socket operations" is not a
>>>> well-defined term. I guess, what has been meant was "socket options" - the
>>>> ones that are available in many operating systems.
>>>>
>>>> I think the API should not limit itself to a specific way on how to
>>>> configure the stack (e.g., through socket-options, ioctl, netlink,...).
>>>> But rather be agnostic as to the technical details on how the higher
>>>> layer configures/controls the MPTCP-stack.
>>>>
>>> I support this work and I agree with Christoph and Mirja.
>>>> Christoph
>>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Fabien
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> multipathtcp mailing list
>>> multipathtcp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> multipathtcp mailing list
>>> multipathtcp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
>> _______________________________________________
>> multipathtcp mailing list
>> multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 09:21:59 -0800
From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
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Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>, "Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com" <Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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On 15/11/16 - 12:40:01, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> Re-,
> 
> I have one comment about the target applications: QUIC is definitely one.
> 
> For the VoIP case (RTP to be more accurate), there is already a candidate solution: Multipath RTP (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-mprtp-03).
> 
> I don’t have results to share because we are in a chicken/egg situation: implementers are asking for a stable specification to play with.

I don't buy this argument. Implementors can build a prototype to feed
information/feedback into the standardization process.


Christoph

> 
> Cheers,
> Med
> 
> De : philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> Envoyé : mardi 15 novembre 2016 12:51
> À : robert.skog@ericsson.com; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com; alan.ford@gmail.com
> Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org
> Objet : MPTCP carrying UDP
> 
> (I changed the Subject line of the email)
> 
> Do people have any experimental results /experiences they could share of running UDP applications over MPTCP sub-flows?  Would be interested to hear about the issues. I guess VoIP and Quic would be the most interesting ones. Whether the experiments are with only one path being used at once, or multiple. etc
> 
> 
> 
> From: Robert Skog [mailto:robert.skog@ericsson.com]
> Sent: 15 November 2016 10:09
> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com<mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>; Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>>; alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>
> Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
> 
> +1
> We see a need to solve UDP in several places, so having a separate specification can help this moving forward.
> 
> Cheers,
> /Robert
> 
> From: multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: den 15 november 2016 09:57
> To: Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com<mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>; philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>; alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>
> Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
> 
> Hi Markus, all,
> 
> I’m on the same page that non-tcp traffic should be considered in scope. At least, the UDP case should be investigated. I remember there was interest in BA meeting about the UDP part (https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/minutes/minutes-95-mptcp).
> 
> An option I see is to consider advancing the use of MPTCP to convey UDP flows in a separate EXPERIMENTAL specification that will be cross-reviewed with other WGs (intarea, tsvwg). Having that base specification will help having interoperable implementations that will be used to carry experimentations.
> 
> Those experiments will help to determine whether the proposed solution is complex/simple, viable/non-viable, failed/successful, etc.
> 
> Let’s give it a try.
> 
> Cheers,
> Med
> 
> De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com<mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>
> Envoyé : mardi 15 novembre 2016 08:58
> À : philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>; alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>
> Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
> 
> Phil,
> 
> If you feel it would take too long and to be too complex to achieve in a reasonable timeframe, we are ok with excluding non-tcp traffic, however, for our total solution we do requires also non-tcp traffic to be sent over multiple paths. We could argue that we can use a different mechanisms specifically for UDP and other protocols, but it would be nice to have as single MPTCP-based solution. (my gut feeling is that we would need to replicate a lot of MPTCP scheduling features into a new mechanism).
> 
> Marcus
> 
> Von: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org>> im Auftrag von "philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>" <philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>>
> Datum: Montag, 14. November 2016 um 07:32
> An: "alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>" <alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>
> Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>" <multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>>
> Betreff: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
> 
> 
> i think we should move beyond "exploring whether it would be useful".
> 
> 
> 
> i'd like us to assess proposed solutions. i think we should say this is what we're doing - at the moment we've had quite a lot of discussion about one proposal. we should give the chance for other proposals, and make the discussion more structured (what are the assessment criteria).
> 
> 
> 
> i also think we should explicitly exclude non-tcp traffic  (i think non-tcp traffic is too big a topic for our WG)
> 
> 
> 
> phil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>>
> Sent: 14 November 2016 06:11
> To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R
> Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item
> 
> I think this work item is achievable by simply removing references to “at least one end” from the existing charter item on the proxy. So the item would now read:
> 
> Finally, the working group will explore whether an MPTCP-aware
> middlebox would be useful. For example, potentially helping MPTCP’s
> incremental deployment by allowing only one end host to be MPTCP-enabled
> and the middlebox acts as an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which runs
> TCP; and potentially helping some mobility scenarios, where the middle box
> acts as an anchor between two MPTCP-enabled hosts. Alternatively, neither
> end host could be MPTCP-enabled but a pair of proxies could work together to
> bring MPTCP benefits to such connections. The working group will detail what real
> problems an MPTCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact the
> Multipath TCP architecture (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be
> justified as compared against alternative solutions to the problems, and
> the likely feasibility of solving the technical and security issues.
> 
> In some ways, the two ended proxy work could even be seen as an extension of the previous operational experience work within this WG.
> 
> Regards,
> Alan
> 
> On 10 Nov 2016, at 19:17, philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active discussion is reaching some common understanding?
> 
> We’re trying to work out what a work item might look like, so would like to understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario, & what common agreements we’d assume & restrictions on how the solution works. This seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we’d like discussion on these points to avoid getting into the fine details of one particular existing proposal.
> 
> What we’d appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions /understandings are about:
> •         The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the address of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address of the ‘legacy’ host it wants to communicate with)
> •         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol’s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes
> •         If we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP option
> •         If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP protocol’s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4
> •         If any impact is already envisaged on TCP’s semantics, or any mods are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc
> •         If any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport protocol’s semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?)
> •         Anything else that you think is needed in order to frame the work item
> 
> It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, ie where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, ie where neither host is MPTCP-enabled).
> 
> This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be “none” – we’ll end up with just a short paragraph or a few bullets in the charter.
> 
> We’d also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja and IESG will probably want the main input on this.
> 
> Thanks
> Phil & Yoshi
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
> 

> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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Hello Alan,

On 15/11/16 - 09:36:48, Alan Ford wrote:
> > On 15 Nov 2016, at 07:19, Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com> wrote:
> > On 14/11/16 - 06:14:17, Alan Ford wrote:
> >> After discussion at IETF97, I think it’s clear that this proposal - the
> >> idea of “priority” - means different things to different people. For
> >> example:
> >> 
> >> a) A percentage split - but would that only kick in when one link is full?
> >> Or would all traffic always be split?
> >> b) Prioritising subflows, overflowing only when one is full
> >> c) QoS (latency, bandwidth, etc) values
> >> d) etc etc
> >> 
> >> Personally I think only (b) makes sense at the subflow level, everything
> >> else is far too complex to signal in a few bits. Whether it is of use to
> >> people in the real world, however, I don’t know, however!
> > 
> > I agree with you that signalling priorities in the sense of (b) is not
> > necessarily useful. Because, at the end it is then still left to the
> > decision of the implementer on how he translates the priorities into
> > scheduling.
> > 
> > I think that one missing piece in MPTCP today is the lack of control a
> > host can exercise on how the peer should schedule its traffic.
> > 
> > The backup-bit only enables seamless handover. But MPTCP's benefits go
> > beyond that. Especially for applications sending a thin stream, the delay
> > benefits can be huge (as has been mentioned in the IETF journal article), if
> > the scheduling takes RTT into account (while minimizing cell usage for power
> > & cost reasons).
> > 
> > Allowing to signal this will be a bigger exercise, but I believe
> > that it is necessary if we want longterm to go to a world where a client can
> > connect to any webserver (of any implementation) and use MPTCP.
> 
> So what semantics would you assign to the priorities? Or are you saying we should leave that up to implementors"

Just to make sure that there isn't a misunderstanding: I think we need a
richer signaling than priority-bits.

Personally, I would know what kind of semantics I would assign to each bit,
because I control both client and server. But that's the model I believe we
should not target for.

> “This defines the priority of each subflow with relation to each other; how a receiver of this option translates this into the scheduling is implementation-specific."
> 
> Is that useful to you as an implementor, do you feel?

This depends. If the implementor has a very specific use-case and client in
mind, it will be useful.
For someone who wants to implement a generic-purpose implementation it will
be hard to decide.

> For interop, when you don’t know what the far end will do with this information, would it be useful?

Yes, that's my point. I don't think it will be useful for interop.

> Are there any fundamentals we could/should specify?

I think there are a few use-cases (there are probably many more and it would
be good to complete the list):

1. Thin-streams that require low latency:

   Here a client would like to tell the server what threshold (in terms of
   delay) should trigger use of the secondary subflow. This threshold could
   be expressed in milliseconds or relative to the RTT of the primary
   subflow.


2. Bulk-transfers that have a certain bitrate requirement:

   Here a host would like to the tell the peer this bitrate. The peer will
   then only use the secondary subflow if it can't satisfy the bitrate on
   the primary subflow.

   Instead of expressing this as a bitrate, expressing it as a "deadline"
   might be good as well. For example when streaming a video over HTTP, each
   chunk has a certain deadline at which point it should reach the receiver
   to avoid rebuffering of the video.


3. Transfers (thin and/or bulk) that just require reliability:

   The backup-bit does its job here in this scenario.



Christoph



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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 09:43:56 -0800
From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
To: Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com
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Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
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Hello Markus,

On 15/11/16 - 07:49:45, Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com wrote:
> we are happy with a solution with the characteristics of (b) for the moment, not sure whether other use cases would need something else.

can you give an example of how you would translate the priority-bits into
scheduling decisions?


Thanks,
Christoph

> Plus we had a lot of discussions on what „full“ would mean spcifically.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> Von: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org> im Auftrag von Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
> Datum: Montag, 14. November 2016 um 07:14
> An: Fabien Duchêne <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>
> Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
> Betreff: Re: [multipathtcp] Multipath TCP Address advertisement 4/5 - Priorities
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> After discussion at IETF97, I think it’s clear that this proposal - the idea of “priority” - means different things to different people. For example:
> 
> a) A percentage split - but would that only kick in when one link is full? Or would all traffic always be split?
> b) Prioritising subflows, overflowing only when one is full
> c) QoS (latency, bandwidth, etc) values
> d) etc etc
> 
> Personally I think only (b) makes sense at the subflow level, everything else is far too complex to signal in a few bits. Whether it is of use to people in the real world, however, I don’t know, however!
> 
> I also think it’s entirely feasible to achieve a lot of the traffic engineering here by using TCP control signals - ACKs and window size - to slow down communications. As a sender you can already control rate based on your local policy, and at the receiving end you could use ACKs, ECN, window, etc.
> 
> This proposal needs a much clearer idea of what it’s trying to achieve before we could consider it for merging.
> 
> Regards,
> Alan
> 
> On 14 Nov 2016, at 01:58, Fabien Duchêne <fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be<mailto:fabien.duchene@uclouvain.be>> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Inline,
> 
> On 11/13/2016 08:51 AM, Christoph Paasch wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> while I support adding more info to MPTCP to allow a finer-grained control
> of the peer's scheduling, I think the priority-bits should be defined in a
> more precise way.
> 
> I see the this work here as a way to allow for a more deterministic behavior
> when an MPTCP-client connects to a MPTCP-server. As of today, when I on my
> mobile device connect to a server that is outside of my control, the only
> way I can tell the server to schedule traffic in a certain way is by using
> the backup-bit. Upon which I can expect the server to not send traffic on
> this subflow unless the primary subflow is broken.
> This kind of "configuration" is not sufficient for most use-cases.
> I see the priorities as a way for the client to tell the server exactly
> what kind of scheduling it expects to meet a certain "QoS-requirement".
> So, we should clearly specify what each priority means.
> The way I wrote the draft was more like "ok, let's tell the server that, if possible,
> I'd like to receive most on the trafic on this subflow, then this one, then this one".
> This is why I wrote
> 
> "The priority field MUST be interpreted as an unsigned integer value with the highest
> numerical value being the most preferred one."
> 
> While I agree that we should be as specific as possible, I wonder how we could be more
> explicit about this. Any idea?
> If we are too specific, like saying "always schedule on the highest priority subflow,
> until the windows is full, then skip to the next one" we are actually writing a strict priority
> scheduler, and I was hoping that we could leave the priority open to more creative ways
> of handling the priorities.
> It's a MAY because I'm not sure that making the respect of the priority a MUST would
> be interesting, for backward compatibility, but also because the priorities of one host
> could clash with the other's own interest.
> 
> 
> If we leave the interpretation of the priority-bits open to the
> implementation, hosts still cannot rely on getting a certain service by
> the peer when set the priority bits.
> 
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Christoph
> Cheers!
> 
> Fabien
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
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From: <N.Leymann@telekom.de>
To: <alan.ford@gmail.com>, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
Thread-Index: AdI/NebMR0wIzv/5Tmmn4GsoWOcicgABsqVgAATk1YAAHgGKIA==
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:25:18 +0000
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Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org, Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] LISA - Linked Slow-Start for MPTCP => ICCRG
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Hi Yoshi!

Thanks a lot for asking!  I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a naive =
question at all.

*** DISCLAIMER START ***

I=E2=80=99ll preface my answer with a disclaimer: we focus our =
evaluations on the non-shared bottleneck case because it=E2=80=99s the =
worst case - when paths DO share a bottleneck, uncoupled Slow Start in =
MPTCP breaks goal 2 laid out in RFC 6356 (=E2=80=9Cdo no harm=E2=80=9D), =
and that should be reason enough to fix it.
So, by looking at the impact on Flow Completion Time (FCT) in the =
non-shared bottleneck case, we=E2=80=99re really not very fair towards =
ourselves. If the impact on FCT isn=E2=80=99t too bad then that=E2=80=99s =
in fact already a super good result. I want folks to understand that   =
:-)

Also, just as a reminder for everyone, slides and a paper with many =
results and explanations are at: http://heim.ifi.uio.no/runabk/lisa/

*** DISCLAIMER END ***


With this out of the way, let me try to answer your question.

At a high (simplistic) level, your question is a bit similar to asking =
=E2=80=9Cwhy doesn=E2=80=99t Cubic=E2=80=99s HyStart hurt?=E2=80=9D - =
like LISA, it makes slow start less aggressive, and that leads to =
benefits.

The similarities stop there  :-)    HyStart attenuates SS much, much =
more (actually LISA doesn=E2=80=99t "attenuate SS" but tries to turn =
SS+number_of_subflows*IW into SS on the wire, and it only operates once, =
very briefly, not from a certain point until the end of SS). HyStart =
tries to persistently get a benefit by attenuating SS at just the right =
time based on delay measurements, whereas LISA does it temporarily after =
a fixed number of round-trips. So, as a result, whether LISA yields a =
benefit in the non-shared bottleneck case is pretty much a matter of =
luck. But the bottom line is: making SS a little aggressive can, by =
itself, sometimes be a good thing. At least it doesn=E2=80=99t seem to =
be a very bad thing.

At a finer-grain level, things may get a bit clearer when we look at an =
example.

Consider 2 subflows, with IW 10 and equal RTTs (just to keep things =
simple). The first subflow has cwnd=3D10, then 20, then 40. In the round =
where it reaches 40, the second subflow is started with IW=3D10. If you =
look at the diagram on page 4 of the slides I showed yesterday (sorry, I =
didn=E2=80=99t have time to explain that diagram in my presentation), =
you can see it - look for the point where y=3D40 and x=3Dapprox. 0.3:  =
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-iccrg-update-on-lisa-=
a-linked-slow-start-algorithm-for-mptcp-draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-01-00.pdf

So what you get is, without LISA:
flow 1, on path 1: cwnd =3D 10, 20, 40, 80, 160=E2=80=A6
flow 2, on path 2: cwnd =3D X, X, 10, 20, 40=E2=80=A6

and with LISA:
flow 1, on path 1: cwnd =3D 10, 20, 30, 60, 120=E2=80=A6
flow 2, on path 2: cwnd =3D X, X, 10, 20, 40=E2=80=A6

(=E2=80=9CX" meaning =E2=80=9Cnot active yet=E2=80=9D)

So, for better or worse, with LISA, the burst size is different when =
flow 1 (probably the first) exceeds the capacity limit. This influences =
the amount of overshoot (which otherwise depends on the queue size and =
the BDP).
How good or bad different amounts of overshoot play out, depends on=E2=80=A6=
 well=E2=80=A6  the queue length; the back off factor (e.g. better with =
Cubic than Reno; generally of course best with ECN+ABE   ;-)   ); the =
presence of TLP; ...

So it=E2=80=99s just not persistently a bad thing to reduce this burst =
size - unless, of course, your flows have just the right length for them =
to terminate early enough so that the reduced aggression yields an extra =
round-trip. That=E2=80=99s also a narrow range, the flow size must be =
greater than 10+20+40 packets for LISA to even kick in, but not large =
enough to exceed the bandwidth limit because then we=E2=80=99re back =
with this more random outcome described above.

Does that help?  Clearly it=E2=80=99s not simple =E2=80=A6 the =
non-linear impact of this SS burst reduction on the overshoot and, with =
it, the cwnd size immediately after slow start can be seen on slide 8 of =
the slides from yesterday - same short URL again:
=
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-iccrg-update-on-lisa-=
a-linked-slow-start-algorithm-for-mptcp-draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-01-00.pdf =
<https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-iccrg-update-on-lisa=
-a-linked-slow-start-algorithm-for-mptcp-draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-01-00.pdf>=


E.g. in this case, LISA strictly only made things better in the range =
where the queue length was between approx 8 and 20: the cwnd at the end =
was a bit higher, and that coincides with less retransmissions.

I hope that helps?

Cheers,
Michael



> On Nov 16, 2016, at 12:11 AM, Yoshifumi Nishida =
<nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp> wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
> I've tried to ask a naive question at the meeting, but I missed the
> chance due to time restriction..
>=20
> If the paths don't share a bottleneck, i am guessing it might be too
> conservative especially when the paths are not competed with other
> flows.
> I am wondering why this is slightly conservative and doesn't hurt.
> Some cases should be true, but I just thought some cases are not.
> --
> Yoshi
>=20
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 12:40 AM, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> =
wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>=20
>> LISA is a simple algorithm that couples MPTCP subflows in slow-start, =
to reduce bursts that happen when multiple sub-flows start up with a =
delay and all send their IW, all in SS.
>> We found this effect to be generally bad (i.e., improved with LISA =
:-) ) when subflows do share a bottleneck, and we find that this =
slightly more conservative behavior also doesn't hurt (actually, =
sometimes it's a benefit) when they do *not* share a bottleneck. After =
all, slow-start is very aggressive anyway - is it really so important =
for the 2nd, 3rd... subflow of MPTCP to be  *that* aggressive?
>>=20
>> We presented it to MPTCP at the last IETF, and in Yokohama.
>> There's a draft: =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-01
>> and a page with slides, a published paper with results, and code:  =
http://heim.ifi.uio.no/runabk/lisa/
>>=20
>> The way ahead, as agreed with the MPTCP chairs, is to either publish =
via MPTCP if their future charter will allow, or else publish this via =
ICCRG.
>> Either way, for now, discussion of this draft should happen in the =
ICCRG mailing list. We authors would greatly appreciate feedback - so =
far, we didn't get many comments!
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> Michael (with Runa & Simone)
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> multipathtcp mailing list
>> multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp


--Apple-Mail=_064DC8B2-449D-4F15-A57D-8F8F1AD7E1EA
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Yoshi!<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks a lot for asking! &nbsp;I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99=
s a naive question at all.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">*** DISCLAIMER START ***</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ll preface my answer with a =
disclaimer: we focus our evaluations on the non-shared bottleneck case =
because it=E2=80=99s the worst case - when paths DO share a bottleneck, =
uncoupled Slow Start in MPTCP breaks goal 2 laid out in RFC 6356 (=E2=80=9C=
do no harm=E2=80=9D), and that should be reason enough to fix =
it.</div><div class=3D"">So, by looking at the impact on Flow Completion =
Time (FCT) in the non-shared bottleneck case, we=E2=80=99re really not =
very fair towards ourselves. If the impact on FCT isn=E2=80=99t too bad =
then that=E2=80=99s in fact already a super good result. I want folks to =
understand that &nbsp; :-)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Also, just as a reminder for everyone, slides and a paper =
with many results and explanations are at:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://heim.ifi.uio.no/runabk/lisa/" =
class=3D"">http://heim.ifi.uio.no/runabk/lisa/</a></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">*** =
DISCLAIMER END ***</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With this out of the =
way, let me try to answer your question.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">At a high (simplistic) level, your =
question is a bit similar to asking =E2=80=9Cwhy doesn=E2=80=99t =
Cubic=E2=80=99s HyStart hurt?=E2=80=9D - like LISA, it makes slow start =
less aggressive, and that leads to benefits.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The similarities stop there &nbsp;:-) =
&nbsp; &nbsp;HyStart attenuates SS much, much more (actually LISA =
doesn=E2=80=99t "attenuate SS" but tries to turn =
SS+number_of_subflows*IW into SS on the wire, and it only operates once, =
very briefly, not from a certain point until the end of SS). HyStart =
tries to persistently get a benefit by attenuating SS at just the right =
time based on delay measurements, whereas LISA does it temporarily after =
a fixed number of round-trips. So, as a result, whether LISA yields a =
benefit in the non-shared bottleneck case is pretty much a matter of =
luck. But the bottom line is: making SS a little aggressive can, by =
itself, sometimes be a good thing. At least it doesn=E2=80=99t seem to =
be a very bad thing.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">At a finer-grain level, things may get a bit clearer when we =
look at an example.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Consider 2 subflows, with IW 10 and equal RTTs (just to keep =
things simple). The first subflow has cwnd=3D10, then 20, then 40. In =
the round where it reaches 40, the second subflow is started with IW=3D10.=
 If you look at the diagram on page 4 of the slides I showed yesterday =
(sorry, I didn=E2=80=99t have time to explain that diagram in my =
presentation), you can see it - look for the point where y=3D40 and =
x=3Dapprox. 0.3: &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-iccrg-update-=
on-lisa-a-linked-slow-start-algorithm-for-mptcp-draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-01-=
00.pdf" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-iccrg-upda=
te-on-lisa-a-linked-slow-start-algorithm-for-mptcp-draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-=
01-00.pdf</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So=
 what you get is, without LISA:</div><div class=3D"">flow 1, on path 1: =
cwnd =3D 10, 20, 40, 80, 160=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D"">flow 2, on =
path 2: cwnd =3D X, X, 10, 20, 40=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">and with LISA:</div><div class=3D"">flow =
1, on path 1: cwnd =3D 10, 20, 30, 60, 120=E2=80=A6</div><div =
class=3D"">flow 2, on path 2: cwnd =3D X, X, 10, 20, 40=E2=80=A6</div><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">(=E2=80=9C=
X" meaning =E2=80=9Cnot active yet=E2=80=9D)</div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So, for better or worse, =
with LISA, the burst size is different when flow 1 (probably the first) =
exceeds the capacity limit. This influences the amount of overshoot =
(which otherwise depends on the queue size and the BDP).</div><div =
class=3D"">How good or bad different amounts of overshoot play out, =
depends on=E2=80=A6 well=E2=80=A6 &nbsp;the queue length; the back off =
factor (e.g. better with Cubic than Reno; generally of course best with =
ECN+ABE &nbsp; ;-) &nbsp; ); the presence of TLP; ...</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So it=E2=80=99s just not =
persistently a bad thing to reduce this burst size - unless, of course, =
your flows have just the right length for them to terminate early enough =
so that the reduced aggression yields an extra round-trip. That=E2=80=99s =
also a narrow range, the flow size must be greater than 10+20+40 packets =
for LISA to even kick in, but not large enough to exceed the bandwidth =
limit because then we=E2=80=99re back with this more random outcome =
described above.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Does that help? &nbsp;Clearly it=E2=80=99s not simple =E2=80=A6=
 the non-linear impact of this SS burst reduction on the overshoot and, =
with it, the cwnd size immediately after slow start can be seen on slide =
8 of the slides from yesterday - same short URL again:</div><div =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-iccrg-update-=
on-lisa-a-linked-slow-start-algorithm-for-mptcp-draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-01-=
00.pdf" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-iccrg-upda=
te-on-lisa-a-linked-slow-start-algorithm-for-mptcp-draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-=
01-00.pdf</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">E.g. in this case, LISA strictly only made things better in =
the range where the queue length was between approx 8 and 20: the cwnd =
at the end was a bit higher, and that coincides with less =
retransmissions.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I hope that helps?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div =
class=3D"">Michael</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Nov 16, 2016, at 12:11 AM, Yoshifumi Nishida &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp" =
class=3D"">nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hello,<br class=3D"">I've tried to ask a naive question at =
the meeting, but I missed the<br class=3D"">chance due to time =
restriction..<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">If the paths don't share a =
bottleneck, i am guessing it might be too<br class=3D"">conservative =
especially when the paths are not competed with other<br =
class=3D"">flows.<br class=3D"">I am wondering why this is slightly =
conservative and doesn't hurt.<br class=3D"">Some cases should be true, =
but I just thought some cases are not.<br class=3D"">--<br =
class=3D"">Yoshi<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at =
12:40 AM, Michael Welzl &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no" =
class=3D"">michawe@ifi.uio.no</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Dear all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">LISA is =
a simple algorithm that couples MPTCP subflows in slow-start, to reduce =
bursts that happen when multiple sub-flows start up with a delay and all =
send their IW, all in SS.<br class=3D"">We found this effect to be =
generally bad (i.e., improved with LISA :-) ) when subflows do share a =
bottleneck, and we find that this slightly more conservative behavior =
also doesn't hurt (actually, sometimes it's a benefit) when they do =
*not* share a bottleneck. After all, slow-start is very aggressive =
anyway - is it really so important for the 2nd, 3rd... subflow of MPTCP =
to be &nbsp;*that* aggressive?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">We presented =
it to MPTCP at the last IETF, and in Yokohama.<br class=3D"">There's a =
draft: <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-01" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-01</a><br =
class=3D"">and a page with slides, a published paper with results, and =
code: &nbsp;<a href=3D"http://heim.ifi.uio.no/runabk/lisa/" =
class=3D"">http://heim.ifi.uio.no/runabk/lisa/</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The way ahead, as agreed with the MPTCP chairs, is to either =
publish via MPTCP if their future charter will allow, or else publish =
this via ICCRG.<br class=3D"">Either way, for now, discussion of this =
draft should happen in the ICCRG mailing list. We authors would greatly =
appreciate feedback - so far, we didn't get many comments!<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Cheers,<br class=3D"">Michael (with Runa &amp; =
Simone)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">multipathtcp mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_064DC8B2-449D-4F15-A57D-8F8F1AD7E1EA--


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "N.Leymann@telekom.de" <N.Leymann@telekom.de>, "alan.ford@gmail.com" <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:07:58 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "cpaasch@apple.com" <cpaasch@apple.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:11:55 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "cpaasch@apple.com" <cpaasch@apple.com>
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>, "Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com" <Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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Med,
>
> I would like to make two comments:
> * The implementers I have in mind are CPE vendors and Carrier-Grade platform manufacturers.
> * Implementation does not come for free.
>

Independently of the topic of this email, I'd like to point out that in 
the MPTCP working group most of the important decisions have been 
validated by early prototypes that have been evaluated and discussed in 
the working group. I think that this has served as an important "reality 
check" in the working group and has probably contributed to the good 
results that we have achieved with the various deployments that have 
been documented. With the open-source implementation of Multipath TCP in 
the Linux kernel, the cost of developing a prototype is not as high as 
developing a hardware implementation in some working groups.

Coming back to the proxy topic, TCP/MPTCP proxies have already been 
demonstrated, e.g. in
http://inl.info.ucl.ac.be/publications/multipath-middlebox
and extensions of this idea are deployed in the field.
I'm not aware of similar work showing that UDP can be safely 
encapsulated inside MPTCP for reactive applications.

Best regards,

Olivier


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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Hi Phil,

Thank you for sharing this text.

I would like to make several comments:

=B7         I don't think that assessment criteria and analysis are to be c=
onsidered as deliverables (hinted by "producing" wording in the proposed te=
xt). This is IMHO part of the normal handling of proposals within WGs. The =
analysis may be more or less formal, but we don't need to say it explicitly=
 in a charter.

=B7         At this stage, I only see one merged proposal that is endorsed =
by a group of people who have the energy to work on this. This group is rea=
dy to lead this work to capture and record the consensus of the WG when it =
comes to technical design choices. Like any IETF draft, that merged proposa=
l is not frozen.

=B7         From where I sit, I didn't hear objections about the target des=
ign objectives of the Network-assisted MPTCP solution (0-RTT proxying, avoi=
d interference with native MPTCP connection, encourage the establishment of=
 e2e MPTCP connections, etc.) but some disagreements about how to structure=
 the additional data to be supplied during the 3WHS. Those are fair objecti=
ons that can be handled using the normal IETF procedure (i.e., consensus).

=B7         There was also some interest in the deployment document as a co=
mpanion material to have a big picture of the Network-Assisted MPTCP models=
.

In summary, I would like to charter to be more explicit/clear the MPTCP pro=
xy work is definitely in scope. Below a text proposal:

Many operators now contemplate the use of MPTCP to optimize resource
usage in the various access networks (both wired and wireless) they
operate. Corresponding designs assume MPTCP proxy capabilities that
may be embedded in CPE devices and/or in the operator's network.
Typically, an MPTCP proxy may be embedded in the Customer Premises
Equipment (CPE) and/or in the operator's network.
No assumption is made about the location of the
MPTCP proxy inside an operator's network.

The WG will investigate solutions to address these
target deployments. Deployment considerations as well as means to
provision configuration information to MPTCP proxies will also be
documented by the WG.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Med

De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de phil=
ip.eardley@bt.com
Envoy=E9 : mardi 15 novembre 2016 17:24
=C0 : multipathtcp@ietf.org
Objet : [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Hi,
Following our discussion on yesterday's WG meeting, here is some proposed t=
ext for the charter:-


MPTCP is now seeing widespread deployment in networks to bond together two =
accesses, such as fixed and mobile broadband. The scenario typically featur=
es two proxies, one in the home gateway ('CPE') and one in the network, bot=
h under the control of the operator. The WG will analyse proposed solutions=
 for this scenario by producing:-

* assessment criteria for solutions; support of non-TCP traffic is not a cr=
iteria. The WG Chairs will produce the initial version.

* analysis of proposed solutions against these criteria, as well as what up=
dates they would require to RFC6824bis.  As a result, the WG may agree to g=
o forward with the favoured solution.

Comments?
Thanks
Phil & Yoshi

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<body lang=3D"FR" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Phil,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you for sharing this text=
.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I would like to make several co=
mments:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I don&#8217;t think tha=
t assessment criteria and analysis are to be considered as deliverables (hi=
nted by &#8220;producing&#8221; wording in the proposed text). This
 is IMHO part of the normal handling of proposals within WGs. The analysis =
may be more or less formal, but we don&#8217;t need to say it explicitly in=
 a charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">At this stage, I only s=
ee one merged proposal that is endorsed by a group of people who have the e=
nergy to work on this. This group is ready to
 lead this work to capture and record the consensus of the WG when it comes=
 to technical design choices. Like any IETF draft, that merged proposal is =
not frozen.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">From where I sit, I did=
n&#8217;t hear objections about the target design objectives of the Network=
-assisted MPTCP solution (0-RTT proxying, avoid interference
 with native MPTCP connection, encourage the establishment of e2e MPTCP con=
nections, etc.) but some disagreements about how to structure the additiona=
l data to be supplied during the 3WHS. Those are fair objections that can b=
e handled using the normal IETF
 procedure (i.e., consensus). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">There was also some int=
erest in the deployment document as a companion material to have a big pict=
ure of the Network-Assisted MPTCP models. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">In summary, I would like to cha=
rter to be more explicit/clear the MPTCP proxy work is definitely in scope.=
 Below a text proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Ma=
ny operators now contemplate the use of MPTCP to optimize resource<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">us=
age in the various access networks (both wired and wireless) they<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">op=
erate. Corresponding designs assume MPTCP proxy capabilities that<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">ma=
y be embedded in CPE devices and/or in the operator's network.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Ty=
pically, an MPTCP proxy may be embedded in the Customer Premises<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Eq=
uipment (CPE) and/or in the operator&#8217;s network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">No=
 assumption is made about the location of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">MP=
TCP proxy inside an operator&#8217;s network.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Th=
e WG will investigate solutions to address these<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">ta=
rget deployments. Deployment considerations as well as means to<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">pr=
ovision configuration information to MPTCP proxies will also be<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">do=
cumented by the WG.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR=
">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR"> m=
ultipathtcp
 [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>De la part de</b> philip.eardley=
@bt.com<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mardi 15 novem</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language=
:FR">bre 2016 17:24<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> multipathtcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy it=
em<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Following our discussion on yes=
terday&#8217;s WG meeting, here is some proposed text for the charter:-<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">MPTCP is now seeing widespre=
ad deployment in networks to bond together two accesses, such as fixed and =
mobile broadband. The scenario typically features two proxies, one in the h=
ome gateway (&#8216;CPE&#8217;) and one in the network,
 both under the control of the operator. The WG will analyse proposed solut=
ions for this scenario by producing:-<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">* assessment criteria for so=
lutions; support of non-TCP traffic is not a criteria. The WG Chairs will p=
roduce the initial version.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">* analysis of proposed solut=
ions against these criteria, as well as what updates they would require to =
RFC6824bis. &nbsp;As a result, the WG may agree to go forward with the favo=
ured solution.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Comments?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Phil &amp; Yoshi<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DB4C79OPEXCLILMA3corp_--


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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 09:23:08 -0500
From: William Ivancic <ivancic@syzygyengineering.com>
To: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "N.Leymann@telekom.de" <N.Leymann@telekom.de>, "alan.ford@gmail.com" <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01A8A45E-5128-46C4-8024-9F4E626C87F6@syzygyengineering.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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I think Med=E2=80=99s proposal is very reasonable.=C2=A0 I think whatever would be le=
arned from and EXPERIMENTAL solution would be valuable for many working grou=
ps / research groups.=C2=A0 One might consider taking this to some research grou=
p, but I think we are so close to an EXPERIMENTAL solution already in MPTCP,=
 that=C2=A0 such a move wouldn=E2=80=99t be a good use of time and energy.

=20

Will

=20

From: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of <mohamed.bo=
ucadair@orange.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 at 2:07 AM
To: "N.Leymann@telekom.de" <N.Leymann@telekom.de>, "alan.ford@gmail.com" <a=
lan.ford@gmail.com>
Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>, "Markus.Brunner3@swiss=
com.com" <Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP

=20

Hi Nic,=20

=20

Of course, there are applications that are not suitable to be injected insi=
de an MPTCP connection.=20

It is also clear that some issues are to be handled correctly if we want to=
 have a decent solution.=20

=20

All that is fully agreed.

=20

My point is that instead of speculating about the foreseen results, let=E2=80=99s=
 document an EXPERIMENTAL solution so that people can play with and assess. =
This is fundamental because all is about technical details.=20

=20

If it appears the results are bad, that particular solution will be then st=
amped as historic.=20

=20

Cheers,

Med

=20

De : N.Leymann@telekom.de [mailto:N.Leymann@telekom.de]=20
Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 16 novembre 2016 06:25
=C3=80 : alan.ford@gmail.com; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org; Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com
Objet : AW: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP

=20

Hi,

=20

Von: multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Ala=
n Ford
Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. November 2016 16:55
An: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org; Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com
Betreff: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP

=20

Alan Ford wrote:

=20

> As I said at IETF95 and will say again now, MPTCP provides a TCP service:=
 stream-oriented, reliable, whereas UDP is datagram-oriented, and unreliable=
.

=20

> "Mapping" one to the other cannot be directly done since the transports h=
ave fundamentally different semantics.

=E2=80=A6..


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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><di=
v class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri'>I think Med&#8217;s proposal is very reasonable.=C2=A0 I think wh=
atever would be learned from and EXPERIMENTAL solution would be valuable for=
 many working groups / research groups.=C2=A0 One might consider taking this to =
some research group, but I think we are so close to an EXPERIMENTAL solution=
 already in MPTCP, that=C2=A0 such a move wouldn&#8217;t be a good use of time a=
nd energy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:Calibri'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>Will<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;p=
adding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-family:Cal=
ibri;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-family:Calibri;color:bl=
ack'>multipathtcp &lt;multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of &lt;moh=
amed.boucadair@orange.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 16, 2016 a=
t 2:07 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;N.Leymann@telekom.de&quot; &lt;N.Leymann@telek=
om.de&gt;, &quot;alan.ford@gmail.com&quot; &lt;alan.ford@gmail.com&gt;<br><b=
>Cc: </b>&quot;multipathtcp@ietf.org&quot; &lt;multipathtcp@ietf.org&gt;, &q=
uot;Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com&quot; &lt;Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com&gt;<=
br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP<o:p></o:p></span></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Hi Ni=
c, </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'=
>Of course, there are applications that are not suitable to be injected insi=
de an MPTCP connection. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>It is also clear t=
hat some issues are to be handled correctly if we want to have a decent solu=
tion. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:bla=
ck'>All that is fully agreed.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Courier New";color:black'>My point is that instead of speculating about the=
 foreseen results, let&#8217;s document an EXPERIMENTAL solution so that peo=
ple can play with and assess. This is fundamental because all is about techn=
ical details. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";c=
olor:black'>If it appears the results are bad, that particular solution will=
 be then stamped as historic. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Courier New";color:black'>Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Med</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border=
:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div styl=
e=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>De&nbsp=
;:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> N.Leymann@te=
lekom.de [mailto:N.Leymann@telekom.de] <br><b>Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 16=
 novembre 2016 06:25<br><b>=C3=80&nbsp;:</b> alan.ford@gmail.com; BOUCADAIR Moha=
med IMT/OLN<br><b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> multipathtcp@ietf.org; Markus.Brunner3@swiss=
com.com<br><b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> AW: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP</span><=
o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span lang=3DDE style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F=
497D'>Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DDE style=3D'font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><=
div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in=
 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DDE style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:Tahoma'>Von:</span></b><span lang=3DDE style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:Tahoma'> multipathtcp [<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org">mai=
lto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>Im Auftrag von </b>Alan Ford<br><b=
>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 15. November 2016 16:55<br><b>An:</b> <a href=3D"mail=
to:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a><br><b>Cc:<=
/b> <a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a>; <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com">Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com</a><br>=
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP</span><o:p></o:p></p><=
/div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DDE>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DDE style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;col=
or:black'>Alan Ford wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lan=
g=3DDE style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&gt; </span>A=
s I said at IETF95 and will say again now, MPTCP provides a TCP service: str=
eam-oriented, reliable, whereas UDP is datagram-oriented, and unreliable.<o:=
p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&gt; </span>&quot;Mapping&quot; one t=
o the other cannot be directly done since the transports have fundamentally =
different semantics.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'color:#1F497D'>&#8230;..</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>

--B_3562132991_1780619367--



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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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Assessment criteria - not an RFC. Perhaps it doesn't need saying in the cha=
rter. The point is that the process will follow this approach: discuss crit=
eria; gets proposals against these criteria.

Don't want to presume there won't be other proposals and starting points. T=
he discussion so far seems to suggest there are other ideas

Target design objectives - please can you point me to where the objectives =
of your proposal are listed. That will be useful input for me & Yoshi to pr=
oduce an initial version of the assessment criteria.

I think the charter text should be explicit about two-ended proxy - as I un=
derstand it, that's what matches the current deployments (not 1-ended), so =
that's what I think the focus should be.

Discussion would be useful on two of your points:

Firstly, deployment considerations. What do people think would be useful he=
re? Experiences from deployments? Implementation advice? What information h=
as to be configured (in some unspecified way) on the proxies? Something els=
e?
[I think it would be useful to capture at least some of this information]
Second, provision of configuration information to MPTCP proxies. As I under=
stand it, this will be done by manual configuration, or DHCP extensions, or=
 something else. My initial reaction is that I think these things are outsi=
de the scope of the WG. But the WG can help motivate work elsewhere.

Thanks
phil



From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
Sent: 16 November 2016 10:06
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com>; multipathtcp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Hi Phil,

Thank you for sharing this text.

I would like to make several comments:

=B7         I don't think that assessment criteria and analysis are to be c=
onsidered as deliverables (hinted by "producing" wording in the proposed te=
xt). This is IMHO part of the normal handling of proposals within WGs. The =
analysis may be more or less formal, but we don't need to say it explicitly=
 in a charter.

=B7         At this stage, I only see one merged proposal that is endorsed =
by a group of people who have the energy to work on this. This group is rea=
dy to lead this work to capture and record the consensus of the WG when it =
comes to technical design choices. Like any IETF draft, that merged proposa=
l is not frozen.

=B7         From where I sit, I didn't hear objections about the target des=
ign objectives of the Network-assisted MPTCP solution (0-RTT proxying, avoi=
d interference with native MPTCP connection, encourage the establishment of=
 e2e MPTCP connections, etc.) but some disagreements about how to structure=
 the additional data to be supplied during the 3WHS. Those are fair objecti=
ons that can be handled using the normal IETF procedure (i.e., consensus).

=B7         There was also some interest in the deployment document as a co=
mpanion material to have a big picture of the Network-Assisted MPTCP models=
.

In summary, I would like to charter to be more explicit/clear the MPTCP pro=
xy work is definitely in scope. Below a text proposal:

Many operators now contemplate the use of MPTCP to optimize resource
usage in the various access networks (both wired and wireless) they
operate. Corresponding designs assume MPTCP proxy capabilities that
may be embedded in CPE devices and/or in the operator's network.
Typically, an MPTCP proxy may be embedded in the Customer Premises
Equipment (CPE) and/or in the operator's network.
No assumption is made about the location of the
MPTCP proxy inside an operator's network.

The WG will investigate solutions to address these
target deployments. Deployment considerations as well as means to
provision configuration information to MPTCP proxies will also be
documented by the WG.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Med

De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de phil=
ip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>
Envoy=E9 : mardi 15 novembre 2016 17:24
=C0 : multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Objet : [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Hi,
Following our discussion on yesterday's WG meeting, here is some proposed t=
ext for the charter:-


MPTCP is now seeing widespread deployment in networks to bond together two =
accesses, such as fixed and mobile broadband. The scenario typically featur=
es two proxies, one in the home gateway ('CPE') and one in the network, bot=
h under the control of the operator. The WG will analyse proposed solutions=
 for this scenario by producing:-

* assessment criteria for solutions; support of non-TCP traffic is not a cr=
iteria. The WG Chairs will produce the initial version.

* analysis of proposed solutions against these criteria, as well as what up=
dates they would require to RFC6824bis.  As a result, the WG may agree to g=
o forward with the favoured solution.

Comments?
Thanks
Phil & Yoshi

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Assessment criteria &#=
8211; not an RFC. Perhaps it doesn&#8217;t need saying in the charter. The =
point is that the process will follow this approach: discuss criteria; gets=
 proposals against these criteria.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Don&#8217;t want to pr=
esume there won&#8217;t be other proposals and starting points. The discuss=
ion so far seems to suggest there are other ideas<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Target design objectiv=
es &#8211; please can you point me to where the objectives of your proposal=
 are listed. That will be useful input for me &amp; Yoshi to produce an ini=
tial version of the assessment criteria.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I think the charter te=
xt should be explicit about two-ended proxy &#8211; as I understand it, tha=
t&#8217;s what matches the current deployments (not 1-ended), so that&#8217=
;s what I think the focus should be.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Discussion would be us=
eful on two of your points:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Firstly, deployment co=
nsiderations. What do people think would be useful here? Experiences from d=
eployments? Implementation advice? What information has to be configured (i=
n some unspecified way) on the proxies?
 Something else?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[I think it would be u=
seful to capture at least some of this information]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Second, provision of c=
onfiguration information to MPTCP proxies. As I understand it, this will be=
 done by manual configuration, or DHCP extensions, or something else. My in=
itial reaction is that I think these
 things are outside the scope of the WG. But the WG can help motivate work =
elsewhere.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">phil<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB"> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 16 November 2016 10:06<br>
<b>To:</b> Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R &lt;philip.eardley@bt.com&gt;; multipat=
htcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Phil,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you for sharing this text=
.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I would like to make several co=
mments:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I don&#8217;t think tha=
t assessment criteria and analysis are to be considered as deliverables (hi=
nted by &#8220;producing&#8221; wording in the proposed text). This
 is IMHO part of the normal handling of proposals within WGs. The analysis =
may be more or less formal, but we don&#8217;t need to say it explicitly in=
 a charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">At this stage, I only s=
ee one merged proposal that is endorsed by a group of people who have the e=
nergy to work on this. This group is ready to
 lead this work to capture and record the consensus of the WG when it comes=
 to technical design choices. Like any IETF draft, that merged proposal is =
not frozen.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">From where I sit, I did=
n&#8217;t hear objections about the target design objectives of the Network=
-assisted MPTCP solution (0-RTT proxying, avoid interference
 with native MPTCP connection, encourage the establishment of e2e MPTCP con=
nections, etc.) but some disagreements about how to structure the additiona=
l data to be supplied during the 3WHS. Those are fair objections that can b=
e handled using the normal IETF
 procedure (i.e., consensus). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Symbol;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span =
style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">There was also some int=
erest in the deployment document as a companion material to have a big pict=
ure of the Network-Assisted MPTCP models. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">In summary, I would like to cha=
rter to be more explicit/clear the MPTCP proxy work is definitely in scope.=
 Below a text proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Ma=
ny operators now contemplate the use of MPTCP to optimize resource<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">us=
age in the various access networks (both wired and wireless) they<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">op=
erate. Corresponding designs assume MPTCP proxy capabilities that<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">ma=
y be embedded in CPE devices and/or in the operator's network.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Ty=
pically, an MPTCP proxy may be embedded in the Customer Premises<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Eq=
uipment (CPE) and/or in the operator&#8217;s network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">No=
 assumption is made about the location of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">MP=
TCP proxy inside an operator&#8217;s network.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Th=
e WG will investigate solutions to address these<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">ta=
rget deployments. Deployment considerations as well as means to<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">pr=
ovision configuration information to MPTCP proxies will also be<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">do=
cumented by the WG.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:FR">De&nbsp;:<=
/span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:FR"> multipathtcp [<a href=3D"=
mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>]
<b>De la part de</b> <a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">philip.eardle=
y@bt.com</a><br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mardi 15 novem</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language=
:FR">bre 2016 17:24<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@iet=
f.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy it=
em<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Following our discussion on yesterday&#8217;s WG mee=
ting, here is some proposed text for the charter:-<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">MPTCP is now seeing widespread deployment in netw=
orks to bond together two accesses, such as fixed and mobile broadband. The=
 scenario typically features two proxies, one in the home gateway (&#8216;C=
PE&#8217;) and one in the network, both under
 the control of the operator. The WG will analyse proposed solutions for th=
is scenario by producing:-<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">* assessment criteria for solutions; support of n=
on-TCP traffic is not a criteria. The WG Chairs will produce the initial ve=
rsion.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">* analysis of proposed solutions against these cr=
iteria, as well as what updates they would require to RFC6824bis. &nbsp;As =
a result, the WG may agree to go forward with the favoured solution.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comments?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil &amp; Yoshi<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:27:09 +0000
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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Hi Phil,

Thank you for the feedback.

Please see inline.

Cheers,
Med

De : philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 16 novembre 2016 16:03
=C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; multipathtcp@ietf.org
Objet : RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Assessment criteria - not an RFC. Perhaps it doesn't need saying in the cha=
rter.
[Med] I don't think we need to say that in the charter.

The point is that the process will follow this approach: discuss criteria; =
gets proposals against these criteria.
[Med] That's one way to proceed, but not the only one. I prefer a more prag=
matic approach that we start with a candidate document that will be updated=
 to record any consensus from the WG. We can progress in // as suggested by=
 the recent IESG statement:


"When the problem scope is well understood and agreed

upon, charters focused on solutions work are extremely efficient."

Don't want to presume there won't be other proposals and starting points. T=
he discussion so far seems to suggest there are other ideas
[Med] Ideas do not mean necessarily new solutions or documents. As I mentio=
ned earlier, the current merged draft is not frozen, inputs/comments/sugges=
tions are more than welcome.

Target design objectives - please can you point me to where the objectives =
of your proposal are listed. That will be useful input for me & Yoshi to pr=
oduce an initial version of the assessment criteria.
[Med] This is mentioned in the Introduction of the draft:


   o  No encapsulation required (no tunnels, whatsoever).

   o  No out-of-band signaling for each MPTCP subflow is required.

   o  Avoids interference with native MPTCP connections.

   o  Targets both on-path and off-path MCPs.

   o  Accommodates various deployment contexts, such as those that

      require the preservation of the source IP address and others

      characterized by an address sharing design.



I'm putting aside this one as I believe it is contentious:

   o  Carries any protocol for the benefit of massive MPTCP adoption.


I think the charter text should be explicit about two-ended proxy - as I un=
derstand it, that's what matches the current deployments (not 1-ended), so =
that's what I think the focus should be.
[Med] Both single and two-ended proxies are considered by operators. That's=
 why I'm suggesting to cite both.

Discussion would be useful on two of your points:

Firstly, deployment considerations. What do people think would be useful he=
re? Experiences from deployments? Implementation advice? What information h=
as to be configured (in some unspecified way) on the proxies? Something els=
e?
[I think it would be useful to capture at least some of this information]
[Med] What I have in mind is the kind of details included in https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerations-00.html.

Second, provision of configuration information to MPTCP proxies. As I under=
stand it, this will be done by manual configuration, or DHCP extensions, or=
 something else. My initial reaction is that I think these things are outsi=
de the scope of the WG. But the WG can help motivate work elsewhere.
[Med] The problem is that the DHC WG charter is explicit about this:


"Definitions of new DHCP options that are delivered using standard

mechanisms with documented semantics are not considered a protocol

extension and thus are outside of scope for the DHC WG. Such options

                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^

should be defined within their respective WGs and reviewed by DHCP

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

experts in the Internet Area Directorate. However, if such options

require protocol extensions or new semantics, the protocol extension

work must be done in the DHC WG."

I'm reiterating my request to include those in the updated charter. Thanks.

Thanks
[Med] Thank you.
phil



From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> [ma=
ilto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
Sent: 16 November 2016 10:06
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@b=
t.com>>; multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Hi Phil,

Thank you for sharing this text.

I would like to make several comments:

*         I don't think that assessment criteria and analysis are to be con=
sidered as deliverables (hinted by "producing" wording in the proposed text=
). This is IMHO part of the normal handling of proposals within WGs. The an=
alysis may be more or less formal, but we don't need to say it explicitly i=
n a charter.

*         At this stage, I only see one merged proposal that is endorsed by=
 a group of people who have the energy to work on this. This group is ready=
 to lead this work to capture and record the consensus of the WG when it co=
mes to technical design choices. Like any IETF draft, that merged proposal =
is not frozen.

*         From where I sit, I didn't hear objections about the target desig=
n objectives of the Network-assisted MPTCP solution (0-RTT proxying, avoid =
interference with native MPTCP connection, encourage the establishment of e=
2e MPTCP connections, etc.) but some disagreements about how to structure t=
he additional data to be supplied during the 3WHS. Those are fair objection=
s that can be handled using the normal IETF procedure (i.e., consensus).

*         There was also some interest in the deployment document as a comp=
anion material to have a big picture of the Network-Assisted MPTCP models.

In summary, I would like to charter to be more explicit/clear the MPTCP pro=
xy work is definitely in scope. Below a text proposal:

Many operators now contemplate the use of MPTCP to optimize resource
usage in the various access networks (both wired and wireless) they
operate. Corresponding designs assume MPTCP proxy capabilities that
may be embedded in CPE devices and/or in the operator's network.
Typically, an MPTCP proxy may be embedded in the Customer Premises
Equipment (CPE) and/or in the operator's network.
No assumption is made about the location of the
MPTCP proxy inside an operator's network.

The WG will investigate solutions to address these
target deployments. Deployment considerations as well as means to
provision configuration information to MPTCP proxies will also be
documented by the WG.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Med

De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de phil=
ip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>
Envoy=E9 : mardi 15 novembre 2016 17:24
=C0 : multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Objet : [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Hi,
Following our discussion on yesterday's WG meeting, here is some proposed t=
ext for the charter:-


MPTCP is now seeing widespread deployment in networks to bond together two =
accesses, such as fixed and mobile broadband. The scenario typically featur=
es two proxies, one in the home gateway ('CPE') and one in the network, bot=
h under the control of the operator. The WG will analyse proposed solutions=
 for this scenario by producing:-

* assessment criteria for solutions; support of non-TCP traffic is not a cr=
iteria. The WG Chairs will produce the initial version.

* analysis of proposed solutions against these criteria, as well as what up=
dates they would require to RFC6824bis.  As a result, the WG may agree to g=
o forward with the favoured solution.

Comments?
Thanks
Phil & Yoshi

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Phil,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you for the feedback.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Please see inline.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">De&nbsp;:</sp=
an></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR"> philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:p=
hilip.eardley@bt.com]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 16 novembre 2016 16:03<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; multipathtcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Assessm=
ent criteria &#8211; not an RFC. Perhaps it doesn&#8217;t need saying in th=
e charter.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] I don&#8217;t think we ne=
ed to say that in the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">The poi=
nt is that the process will follow this approach: discuss criteria; gets pr=
oposals against these criteria.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] That&#8217;s one way to p=
roceed, but not the only one. I prefer a more pragmatic approach that we st=
art with a candidate document that will be updated to
 record any consensus from the WG. We can progress in // as suggested by th=
e recent IESG statement:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&#8220;When the problem scop=
e is well understood and agreed
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">upon, charters focused on so=
lutions work are extremely efficient.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Don&#82=
17;t want to presume there won&#8217;t be other proposals and starting poin=
ts. The discussion so far seems to suggest there are other ideas<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Ideas do not mean necessa=
rily new solutions or documents. As I mentioned earlier, the current merged=
 draft is not frozen, inputs/comments/suggestions
 are more than welcome.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Target =
design objectives &#8211; please can you point me to where the objectives o=
f your proposal are listed. That will be useful input for me &amp; Yoshi to=
 produce an initial version of the assessment criteria.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] This is mentioned in the =
Introduction of the draft:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; No encapsulation required (n=
o tunnels, whatsoever).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; No out-of-band signaling for=
 each MPTCP subflow is required.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Avoids interference with nat=
ive MPTCP connections.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Targets both on-path and off=
-path MCPs.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Accommodates various deploym=
ent contexts, such as those that<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; require the preser=
vation of the source IP address and others<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; characterized by a=
n address sharing design.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">I&#8217;m putting aside this one as I believe it =
is contentious: <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;o&nbsp; Carries any protocol fo=
r the benefit of massive MPTCP adoption.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">I think=
 the charter text should be explicit about two-ended proxy &#8211; as I und=
erstand it, that&#8217;s what matches the current deployments (not 1-ended)=
, so that&#8217;s what I think the focus should be.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Both single and two-ended=
 proxies are considered by operators. That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m suggesting=
 to cite both.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Discuss=
ion would be useful on two of your points:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Firstly=
, deployment considerations. What do people think would be useful here? Exp=
eriences from deployments? Implementation advice? What information has to b=
e configured (in some unspecified way)
 on the proxies? Something else?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[I thin=
k it would be useful to capture at least some of this information]<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] What I have in mind is th=
e kind of details included in
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considera=
tions-00.html">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerations-00.ht=
ml</a>. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Second,=
 provision of configuration information to MPTCP proxies. As I understand i=
t, this will be done by manual configuration, or DHCP extensions, or someth=
ing else. My initial reaction is that
 I think these things are outside the scope of the WG. But the WG can help =
motivate work elsewhere.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] The problem is that the D=
HC WG charter is explicit about this:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&quot;Definitions of new DHCP options that are delivered =
using standard<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">mechanisms with documented semantics are not considered a=
 protocol<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">extension and thus are outside of scope for the DHC WG. S=
uch options<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^^^^^^^^^^^^<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">should be defined within their respective WGs and reviewe=
d by DHCP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">experts in the Internet Area Directorate. However, if suc=
h options<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">require protocol extensions or new semantics, the protoco=
l extension<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">work must be done in the DHC WG.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I&#8217;m reiterating my reques=
t to include those in the updated charter. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Thank you.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">phil<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB">
<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.co=
m</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mailto:mohamed.bouca=
dair@orange.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 16 November 2016 10:06<br>
<b>To:</b> Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt=
.com">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Phil,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you for sharing this text=
.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I would like to make several co=
mments:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">I don&#8217;t think that assessment criteria an=
d analysis are to be considered as deliverables (hinted by &#8220;producing=
&#8221; wording in the proposed text). This is IMHO part of the
 normal handling of proposals within WGs. The analysis may be more or less =
formal, but we don&#8217;t need to say it explicitly in a charter.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">At this stage, I only see one merged proposal t=
hat is endorsed by a group of people who have the energy to work on this. T=
his group is ready to lead this work to capture
 and record the consensus of the WG when it comes to technical design choic=
es. Like any IETF draft, that merged proposal is not frozen.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">From where I sit, I didn&#8217;t hear objection=
s about the target design objectives of the Network-assisted MPTCP solution=
 (0-RTT proxying, avoid interference with native MPTCP
 connection, encourage the establishment of e2e MPTCP connections, etc.) bu=
t some disagreements about how to structure the additional data to be suppl=
ied during the 3WHS. Those are fair objections that can be handled using th=
e normal IETF procedure (i.e., consensus).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">There was also some interest in the deployment =
document as a companion material to have a big picture of the Network-Assis=
ted MPTCP models. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">In summary, I would like to cha=
rter to be more explicit/clear the MPTCP proxy work is definitely in scope.=
 Below a text proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Ma=
ny operators now contemplate the use of MPTCP to optimize resource<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">us=
age in the various access networks (both wired and wireless) they<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">op=
erate. Corresponding designs assume MPTCP proxy capabilities that<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">ma=
y be embedded in CPE devices and/or in the operator's network.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Ty=
pically, an MPTCP proxy may be embedded in the Customer Premises<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Eq=
uipment (CPE) and/or in the operator&#8217;s network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">No=
 assumption is made about the location of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">MP=
TCP proxy inside an operator&#8217;s network.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Th=
e WG will investigate solutions to address these<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">ta=
rget deployments. Deployment considerations as well as means to<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">pr=
ovision configuration information to MPTCP proxies will also be<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">do=
cumented by the WG.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR=
">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR"> m=
ultipathtcp
 [<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:multipathtcp-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> <a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">philip.eardle=
y@bt.com</a><br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mardi 15 novem</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language=
:FR">bre 2016 17:24<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@iet=
f.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy it=
em<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Following our discussion on yes=
terday&#8217;s WG meeting, here is some proposed text for the charter:-<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">MPTCP is now seeing widespre=
ad deployment in networks to bond together two accesses, such as fixed and =
mobile broadband. The scenario typically features two proxies, one in the h=
ome gateway (&#8216;CPE&#8217;) and one in the network,
 both under the control of the operator. The WG will analyse proposed solut=
ions for this scenario by producing:-<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">* assessment criteria for so=
lutions; support of non-TCP traffic is not a criteria. The WG Chairs will p=
roduce the initial version.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">* analysis of proposed solut=
ions against these criteria, as well as what updates they would require to =
RFC6824bis. &nbsp;As a result, the WG may agree to go forward with the favo=
ured solution.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Comments?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Phil &amp; Yoshi<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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On the question of single-ended proxy as well as 2-ended. Why is the former=
 considered by operators? - surely it needs MPTCP in end hosts or servers, =
which unfortunately isn't there yet? Or do you mean 'today the operators wa=
nt to deploy 2-ended proxy solution, and make sure the solution will work i=
n the future for 1-ended, without any great changes'
Happy to add 1-ended if operators really want it. It clearly adds work to m=
ake sure that the solution works in both cases, as well as protocol work fo=
r the first proxy to discover whether a 2nd proxy exists for this particula=
r receiving end host.
It looks like we need to add something on configuration.
Thanks for the pointer to the objectives. We'll think about that later (aft=
er re-chartering)

From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
Sent: 16 November 2016 15:27
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com>; multipathtcp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Hi Phil,

Thank you for the feedback.

Please see inline.

Cheers,
Med

De : philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com> [mailto:philip.ear=
dley@bt.com]
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 16 novembre 2016 16:03
=C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@=
ietf.org>
Objet : RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Assessment criteria - not an RFC. Perhaps it doesn't need saying in the cha=
rter.
[Med] I don't think we need to say that in the charter.

The point is that the process will follow this approach: discuss criteria; =
gets proposals against these criteria.
[Med] That's one way to proceed, but not the only one. I prefer a more prag=
matic approach that we start with a candidate document that will be updated=
 to record any consensus from the WG. We can progress in // as suggested by=
 the recent IESG statement:


"When the problem scope is well understood and agreed

upon, charters focused on solutions work are extremely efficient."

Don't want to presume there won't be other proposals and starting points. T=
he discussion so far seems to suggest there are other ideas
[Med] Ideas do not mean necessarily new solutions or documents. As I mentio=
ned earlier, the current merged draft is not frozen, inputs/comments/sugges=
tions are more than welcome.

Target design objectives - please can you point me to where the objectives =
of your proposal are listed. That will be useful input for me & Yoshi to pr=
oduce an initial version of the assessment criteria.
[Med] This is mentioned in the Introduction of the draft:


   o  No encapsulation required (no tunnels, whatsoever).

   o  No out-of-band signaling for each MPTCP subflow is required.

   o  Avoids interference with native MPTCP connections.

   o  Targets both on-path and off-path MCPs.

   o  Accommodates various deployment contexts, such as those that

      require the preservation of the source IP address and others

      characterized by an address sharing design.



I'm putting aside this one as I believe it is contentious:

   o  Carries any protocol for the benefit of massive MPTCP adoption.


I think the charter text should be explicit about two-ended proxy - as I un=
derstand it, that's what matches the current deployments (not 1-ended), so =
that's what I think the focus should be.
[Med] Both single and two-ended proxies are considered by operators. That's=
 why I'm suggesting to cite both.

Discussion would be useful on two of your points:

Firstly, deployment considerations. What do people think would be useful he=
re? Experiences from deployments? Implementation advice? What information h=
as to be configured (in some unspecified way) on the proxies? Something els=
e?
[I think it would be useful to capture at least some of this information]
[Med] What I have in mind is the kind of details included in https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerations-00.html.

Second, provision of configuration information to MPTCP proxies. As I under=
stand it, this will be done by manual configuration, or DHCP extensions, or=
 something else. My initial reaction is that I think these things are outsi=
de the scope of the WG. But the WG can help motivate work elsewhere.
[Med] The problem is that the DHC WG charter is explicit about this:


"Definitions of new DHCP options that are delivered using standard

mechanisms with documented semantics are not considered a protocol

extension and thus are outside of scope for the DHC WG. Such options

                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^

should be defined within their respective WGs and reviewed by DHCP

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

experts in the Internet Area Directorate. However, if such options

require protocol extensions or new semantics, the protocol extension

work must be done in the DHC WG."

I'm reiterating my request to include those in the updated charter. Thanks.

Thanks
[Med] Thank you.
phil



From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> [ma=
ilto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
Sent: 16 November 2016 10:06
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@b=
t.com>>; multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Hi Phil,

Thank you for sharing this text.

I would like to make several comments:

*         I don't think that assessment criteria and analysis are to be con=
sidered as deliverables (hinted by "producing" wording in the proposed text=
). This is IMHO part of the normal handling of proposals within WGs. The an=
alysis may be more or less formal, but we don't need to say it explicitly i=
n a charter.

*         At this stage, I only see one merged proposal that is endorsed by=
 a group of people who have the energy to work on this. This group is ready=
 to lead this work to capture and record the consensus of the WG when it co=
mes to technical design choices. Like any IETF draft, that merged proposal =
is not frozen.

*         From where I sit, I didn't hear objections about the target desig=
n objectives of the Network-assisted MPTCP solution (0-RTT proxying, avoid =
interference with native MPTCP connection, encourage the establishment of e=
2e MPTCP connections, etc.) but some disagreements about how to structure t=
he additional data to be supplied during the 3WHS. Those are fair objection=
s that can be handled using the normal IETF procedure (i.e., consensus).

*         There was also some interest in the deployment document as a comp=
anion material to have a big picture of the Network-Assisted MPTCP models.

In summary, I would like to charter to be more explicit/clear the MPTCP pro=
xy work is definitely in scope. Below a text proposal:

Many operators now contemplate the use of MPTCP to optimize resource
usage in the various access networks (both wired and wireless) they
operate. Corresponding designs assume MPTCP proxy capabilities that
may be embedded in CPE devices and/or in the operator's network.
Typically, an MPTCP proxy may be embedded in the Customer Premises
Equipment (CPE) and/or in the operator's network.
No assumption is made about the location of the
MPTCP proxy inside an operator's network.

The WG will investigate solutions to address these
target deployments. Deployment considerations as well as means to
provision configuration information to MPTCP proxies will also be
documented by the WG.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Med

De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de phil=
ip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>
Envoy=E9 : mardi 15 novembre 2016 17:24
=C0 : multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Objet : [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Hi,
Following our discussion on yesterday's WG meeting, here is some proposed t=
ext for the charter:-


MPTCP is now seeing widespread deployment in networks to bond together two =
accesses, such as fixed and mobile broadband. The scenario typically featur=
es two proxies, one in the home gateway ('CPE') and one in the network, bot=
h under the control of the operator. The WG will analyse proposed solutions=
 for this scenario by producing:-

* assessment criteria for solutions; support of non-TCP traffic is not a cr=
iteria. The WG Chairs will produce the initial version.

* analysis of proposed solutions against these criteria, as well as what up=
dates they would require to RFC6824bis.  As a result, the WG may agree to g=
o forward with the favoured solution.

Comments?
Thanks
Phil & Yoshi

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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">On the question of single-ended proxy as well as 2-ended. Why is the for=
mer considered by operators? &#8211; surely it
 needs MPTCP in end hosts or servers, which unfortunately isn&#8217;t there=
 yet? Or do you mean &#8216;today the operators want to deploy 2-ended prox=
y solution, and make sure the solution will work in the future for 1-ended,=
 without any great changes&#8217;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">Happy to add 1-ended if operators really want it. It clearly adds work t=
o make sure that the solution works in both
 cases, as well as protocol work for the first proxy to discover whether a =
2<sup>nd</sup> proxy exists for this particular receiving end host.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">It looks like we need to add something on configuration.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">Thanks for the pointer to the objectives. We&#8217;ll think about that l=
ater (after re-chartering)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB"> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 16 November 2016 15:27<br>
<b>To:</b> Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R &lt;philip.eardley@bt.com&gt;; multipat=
htcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Phil,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you for the feedback.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Please see inline.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:FR">De&nbsp;:</sp=
an></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:FR">
<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">philip.eardley@bt.com</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 16 novembre 2016 16:03<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; <a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp=
@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Assessment criteria &#=
8211; not an RFC. Perhaps it doesn&#8217;t need saying in the charter.</spa=
n><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] I don&#8217;t think we need to say that =
in the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The point is that the =
process will follow this approach: discuss criteria; gets proposals against=
 these criteria.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] That&#8217;s one way to proceed, but not=
 the only one. I prefer a more pragmatic approach that we start with a cand=
idate document that will be updated to record any consensus
 from the WG. We can progress in // as suggested by the recent IESG stateme=
nt: <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&#8220;When the problem scop=
e is well understood and agreed
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">upon, charters focused on so=
lutions work are extremely efficient.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Don&#8217;t want to pr=
esume there won&#8217;t be other proposals and starting points. The discuss=
ion so far seems to suggest there are other ideas<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Ideas do not mean necessarily new soluti=
ons or documents. As I mentioned earlier, the current merged draft is not f=
rozen, inputs/comments/suggestions are more than
 welcome.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Target design objectiv=
es &#8211; please can you point me to where the objectives of your proposal=
 are listed. That will be useful input for me &amp; Yoshi to produce an ini=
tial version of the assessment criteria.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] This is mentioned in the Introduction of=
 the draft:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; No encapsulation required (n=
o tunnels, whatsoever).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; No out-of-band signaling for=
 each MPTCP subflow is required.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Avoids interference with nat=
ive MPTCP connections.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Targets both on-path and off=
-path MCPs.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Accommodates various deploym=
ent contexts, such as those that<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; require the preser=
vation of the source IP address and others<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; characterized by a=
n address sharing design.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">I&#8217;m putting aside this one as I believe it =
is contentious: <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;o&nbsp; Carries any protocol fo=
r the benefit of massive MPTCP adoption.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I think the charter te=
xt should be explicit about two-ended proxy &#8211; as I understand it, tha=
t&#8217;s what matches the current deployments (not 1-ended), so that&#8217=
;s what I think the focus should be.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Both single and two-ended proxies are co=
nsidered by operators. That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m suggesting to cite both.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Discussion would be us=
eful on two of your points:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Firstly, deployment co=
nsiderations. What do people think would be useful here? Experiences from d=
eployments? Implementation advice? What information has to be configured (i=
n some unspecified way) on the proxies?
 Something else?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[I think it would be u=
seful to capture at least some of this information]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] What I have in mind is the kind of detai=
ls included in
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considera=
tions-00.html">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerations-00.ht=
ml</a>. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Second, provision of c=
onfiguration information to MPTCP proxies. As I understand it, this will be=
 done by manual configuration, or DHCP extensions, or something else. My in=
itial reaction is that I think these
 things are outside the scope of the WG. But the WG can help motivate work =
elsewhere.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] The problem is that the DHC WG charter i=
s explicit about this:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&quot;Definitions of new DHCP options that are delivered =
using standard<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">mechanisms with documented semantics are not considered a=
 protocol<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">extension and thus are outside of scope for the DHC WG. S=
uch options<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^^^^^^^^^^^^<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">should be defined within their respective WGs and reviewe=
d by DHCP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">experts in the Internet Area Directorate. However, if suc=
h options<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">require protocol extensions or new semantics, the protoco=
l extension<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">work must be done in the DHC WG.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">I&#8217;m reiterating my request to include th=
ose in the updated charter. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">phil<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB">
<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.co=
m</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mailto:mohamed.bouca=
dair@orange.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 16 November 2016 10:06<br>
<b>To:</b> Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt=
.com">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Phil,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you for sharing this text=
.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I would like to make several co=
mments:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,serif;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">I don&#8217;t think that assessment criteria an=
d analysis are to be considered as deliverables (hinted by &#8220;producing=
&#8221; wording in the proposed text). This is IMHO part of the
 normal handling of proposals within WGs. The analysis may be more or less =
formal, but we don&#8217;t need to say it explicitly in a charter.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,serif;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">At this stage, I only see one merged proposal t=
hat is endorsed by a group of people who have the energy to work on this. T=
his group is ready to lead this work to capture
 and record the consensus of the WG when it comes to technical design choic=
es. Like any IETF draft, that merged proposal is not frozen.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,serif;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">From where I sit, I didn&#8217;t hear objection=
s about the target design objectives of the Network-assisted MPTCP solution=
 (0-RTT proxying, avoid interference with native MPTCP
 connection, encourage the establishment of e2e MPTCP connections, etc.) bu=
t some disagreements about how to structure the additional data to be suppl=
ied during the 3WHS. Those are fair objections that can be handled using th=
e normal IETF procedure (i.e., consensus).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,serif;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">There was also some interest in the deployment =
document as a companion material to have a big picture of the Network-Assis=
ted MPTCP models. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">In summary, I would like to cha=
rter to be more explicit/clear the MPTCP proxy work is definitely in scope.=
 Below a text proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Ma=
ny operators now contemplate the use of MPTCP to optimize resource<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">us=
age in the various access networks (both wired and wireless) they<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">op=
erate. Corresponding designs assume MPTCP proxy capabilities that<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">ma=
y be embedded in CPE devices and/or in the operator's network.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Ty=
pically, an MPTCP proxy may be embedded in the Customer Premises<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Eq=
uipment (CPE) and/or in the operator&#8217;s network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">No=
 assumption is made about the location of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">MP=
TCP proxy inside an operator&#8217;s network.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Th=
e WG will investigate solutions to address these<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">ta=
rget deployments. Deployment considerations as well as means to<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">pr=
ovision configuration information to MPTCP proxies will also be<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">do=
cumented by the WG.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:FR">De&nbsp;:<=
/span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:FR"> multipathtcp [<a href=3D"=
mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>]
<b>De la part de</b> <a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">philip.eardle=
y@bt.com</a><br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mardi 15 novem</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language=
:FR">bre 2016 17:24<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@iet=
f.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy it=
em<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Following our discussion on yesterday&#8217;s WG mee=
ting, here is some proposed text for the charter:-<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">MPTCP is now seeing widespread deployment in netw=
orks to bond together two accesses, such as fixed and mobile broadband. The=
 scenario typically features two proxies, one in the home gateway (&#8216;C=
PE&#8217;) and one in the network, both under
 the control of the operator. The WG will analyse proposed solutions for th=
is scenario by producing:-<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">* assessment criteria for solutions; support of n=
on-TCP traffic is not a criteria. The WG Chairs will produce the initial ve=
rsion.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">* analysis of proposed solutions against these cr=
iteria, as well as what updates they would require to RFC6824bis. &nbsp;As =
a result, the WG may agree to go forward with the favoured solution.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comments?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil &amp; Yoshi<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_49f6ef42a4984a59b28bb63d488acdf1rew09926dag03bdomain1sy_--


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To: philip.eardley@bt.com, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, multipathtcp@ietf.org
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 20:48:37 +0100
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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Phil,


> On the question of single-ended proxy as well as 2-ended. Why is the
> former considered by operators? – surely it needs MPTCP in end hosts or
> servers, which unfortunately isn’t there yet? Or do you mean ‘today the
> operators want to deploy 2-ended proxy solution, and make sure the
> solution will work in the future for 1-ended, without any great changes’
>


The use cases are different.

The single-ended proxy is for MPTCP-enabled smartphones for which 
operators want to combine LTE and WiFi. These smartphones are typically 
sold by the operators themselves with a special firmware. There are a 
least two vendors that have included the open-source Multipath TCP 
implementation in the Linux kernel on several of their recent 
smartphones. This special firmware is typically only deployed in 
countries where there is a WiFi/LTE bonding service. This use case is 
currently supported by using SOCKS, but SOCKS introduces a delay to each 
TCP connection because it exchanges information in the payload. A 
single-ended proxy solution would provide improved performance for this 
use case.

The two-ended proxy is for CPE-routers that are controlled by the 
operators and can be equipped with an LTE connection or attached to an 
LTE gateway in addition to their xDSL line. In this use case, the CPE 
acts as a proxy that converts TCP into MPTCP and then the operator runs 
to proxy to convert it back to regular TCP. These two proxies are 
required because very few endhosts and very few servers support MPTCP 
today.

 > Happy to add 1-ended if operators really want it. It clearly adds work
 > to make sure that the solution works in both cases, as well as protocol
 > work for the first proxy to discover whether a 2^nd proxy exists for
 > this particular receiving end host.

We should cover these two use cases, they are both important for MPTCP.

Olivier


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Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>, "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item
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Hi Phil,

Please see inline.

Cheers,
Med

De : philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 16 novembre 2016 17:38
=C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; multipathtcp@ietf.org
Objet : RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

On the question of single-ended proxy as well as 2-ended. Why is the former=
 considered by operators? - surely it needs MPTCP in end hosts or servers, =
which unfortunately isn't there yet? Or do you mean 'today the operators wa=
nt to deploy 2-ended proxy solution, and make sure the solution will work i=
n the future for 1-ended, without any great changes'
[Med] Please consider reading this:
1-proxy: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerati=
ons-00.html#section-4.1
2- proxies: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-consider=
ations-00.html#section-4.2
Happy to add 1-ended if operators really want it.
[Med] Ok, thanks.
It clearly adds work to make sure that the solution works in both cases, as=
 well as protocol work for the first proxy to discover whether a 2nd proxy =
exists for this particular receiving end host.
[Med] Proxy discovery is similar in both cases, but the means to achieve it=
 may be different.
It looks like we need to add something on configuration.
[Med] Great!
Thanks for the pointer to the objectives. We'll think about that later (aft=
er re-chartering)
[Med] As you agreed to have the 1-2 proxies and also on the configuration p=
art, I'm reoffering this proposed text charter so that we can have somethin=
g concrete to discuss:
Many operators now contemplate the use of MPTCP to optimize resource
usage in the various access networks (both wired and wireless) they
operate. Corresponding designs assume MPTCP proxy capabilities that
may be embedded in CPE devices and/or in the operator's network.
No assumption is made about the location of the
MPTCP proxy inside an operator's network.

The WG will investigate solutions to address these
target deployments. Deployment considerations as well as means to
provision configuration information to MPTCP proxies will also be
documented by the WG.

From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> [ma=
ilto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
Sent: 16 November 2016 15:27
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@b=
t.com>>; multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Hi Phil,

Thank you for the feedback.

Please see inline.

Cheers,
Med

De : philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com> [mailto:philip.ear=
dley@bt.com]
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 16 novembre 2016 16:03
=C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@=
ietf.org>
Objet : RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Assessment criteria - not an RFC. Perhaps it doesn't need saying in the cha=
rter.
[Med] I don't think we need to say that in the charter.

The point is that the process will follow this approach: discuss criteria; =
gets proposals against these criteria.
[Med] That's one way to proceed, but not the only one. I prefer a more prag=
matic approach that we start with a candidate document that will be updated=
 to record any consensus from the WG. We can progress in // as suggested by=
 the recent IESG statement:


"When the problem scope is well understood and agreed

upon, charters focused on solutions work are extremely efficient."

Don't want to presume there won't be other proposals and starting points. T=
he discussion so far seems to suggest there are other ideas
[Med] Ideas do not mean necessarily new solutions or documents. As I mentio=
ned earlier, the current merged draft is not frozen, inputs/comments/sugges=
tions are more than welcome.

Target design objectives - please can you point me to where the objectives =
of your proposal are listed. That will be useful input for me & Yoshi to pr=
oduce an initial version of the assessment criteria.
[Med] This is mentioned in the Introduction of the draft:


   o  No encapsulation required (no tunnels, whatsoever).

   o  No out-of-band signaling for each MPTCP subflow is required.

   o  Avoids interference with native MPTCP connections.

   o  Targets both on-path and off-path MCPs.

   o  Accommodates various deployment contexts, such as those that

      require the preservation of the source IP address and others

      characterized by an address sharing design.



I'm putting aside this one as I believe it is contentious:

   o  Carries any protocol for the benefit of massive MPTCP adoption.


I think the charter text should be explicit about two-ended proxy - as I un=
derstand it, that's what matches the current deployments (not 1-ended), so =
that's what I think the focus should be.
[Med] Both single and two-ended proxies are considered by operators. That's=
 why I'm suggesting to cite both.

Discussion would be useful on two of your points:

Firstly, deployment considerations. What do people think would be useful he=
re? Experiences from deployments? Implementation advice? What information h=
as to be configured (in some unspecified way) on the proxies? Something els=
e?
[I think it would be useful to capture at least some of this information]
[Med] What I have in mind is the kind of details included in https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerations-00.html.

Second, provision of configuration information to MPTCP proxies. As I under=
stand it, this will be done by manual configuration, or DHCP extensions, or=
 something else. My initial reaction is that I think these things are outsi=
de the scope of the WG. But the WG can help motivate work elsewhere.
[Med] The problem is that the DHC WG charter is explicit about this:


"Definitions of new DHCP options that are delivered using standard

mechanisms with documented semantics are not considered a protocol

extension and thus are outside of scope for the DHC WG. Such options

                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^

should be defined within their respective WGs and reviewed by DHCP

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

experts in the Internet Area Directorate. However, if such options

require protocol extensions or new semantics, the protocol extension

work must be done in the DHC WG."

I'm reiterating my request to include those in the updated charter. Thanks.

Thanks
[Med] Thank you.
phil



From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> [ma=
ilto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
Sent: 16 November 2016 10:06
To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R <philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@b=
t.com>>; multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Hi Phil,

Thank you for sharing this text.

I would like to make several comments:

*         I don't think that assessment criteria and analysis are to be con=
sidered as deliverables (hinted by "producing" wording in the proposed text=
). This is IMHO part of the normal handling of proposals within WGs. The an=
alysis may be more or less formal, but we don't need to say it explicitly i=
n a charter.

*         At this stage, I only see one merged proposal that is endorsed by=
 a group of people who have the energy to work on this. This group is ready=
 to lead this work to capture and record the consensus of the WG when it co=
mes to technical design choices. Like any IETF draft, that merged proposal =
is not frozen.

*         From where I sit, I didn't hear objections about the target desig=
n objectives of the Network-assisted MPTCP solution (0-RTT proxying, avoid =
interference with native MPTCP connection, encourage the establishment of e=
2e MPTCP connections, etc.) but some disagreements about how to structure t=
he additional data to be supplied during the 3WHS. Those are fair objection=
s that can be handled using the normal IETF procedure (i.e., consensus).

*         There was also some interest in the deployment document as a comp=
anion material to have a big picture of the Network-Assisted MPTCP models.

In summary, I would like to charter to be more explicit/clear the MPTCP pro=
xy work is definitely in scope. Below a text proposal:

Many operators now contemplate the use of MPTCP to optimize resource
usage in the various access networks (both wired and wireless) they
operate. Corresponding designs assume MPTCP proxy capabilities that
may be embedded in CPE devices and/or in the operator's network.
Typically, an MPTCP proxy may be embedded in the Customer Premises
Equipment (CPE) and/or in the operator's network.
No assumption is made about the location of the
MPTCP proxy inside an operator's network.

The WG will investigate solutions to address these
target deployments. Deployment considerations as well as means to
provision configuration information to MPTCP proxies will also be
documented by the WG.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Med

De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de phil=
ip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>
Envoy=E9 : mardi 15 novembre 2016 17:24
=C0 : multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>
Objet : [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item

Hi,
Following our discussion on yesterday's WG meeting, here is some proposed t=
ext for the charter:-


MPTCP is now seeing widespread deployment in networks to bond together two =
accesses, such as fixed and mobile broadband. The scenario typically featur=
es two proxies, one in the home gateway ('CPE') and one in the network, bot=
h under the control of the operator. The WG will analyse proposed solutions=
 for this scenario by producing:-

* assessment criteria for solutions; support of non-TCP traffic is not a cr=
iteria. The WG Chairs will produce the initial version.

* analysis of proposed solutions against these criteria, as well as what up=
dates they would require to RFC6824bis.  As a result, the WG may agree to g=
o forward with the favoured solution.

Comments?
Thanks
Phil & Yoshi

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Phil,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Please see inline.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">De&nbsp;:</sp=
an></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR"> philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:p=
hilip.eardley@bt.com]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 16 novembre 2016 17:38<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; multipathtcp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">On the question of single-ended proxy as well as 2-ended. Why is the for=
mer considered by operators? &#8211; surely it
 needs MPTCP in end hosts or servers, which unfortunately isn&#8217;t there=
 yet? Or do you mean &#8216;today the operators want to deploy 2-ended prox=
y solution, and make sure the solution will work in the future for 1-ended,=
 without any great changes&#8217;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] Please consider=
 reading this: &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">1-proxy:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considera=
tions-00.html#section-4.1">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerations-00.ht=
ml#section-4.1</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">2- proxies:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considera=
tions-00.html#section-4.2">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerations-00.ht=
ml#section-4.2</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">Happy to add 1-ended if operators really want it.</span><span lang=3D"EN=
" style=3D"color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] Ok, thanks.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">It clearly adds work to make sure that the solution works in both cases,=
 as well as protocol work for the first
 proxy to discover whether a 2<sup>nd</sup> proxy exists for this particula=
r receiving end host.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] Proxy discovery=
 is similar in both cases, but the means to achieve
 it may be different. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">It looks like we need to add something on configuration.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] Great!<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-G=
B">Thanks for the pointer to the objectives. We&#8217;ll think about that l=
ater (after re-chartering)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">[Med] As you agreed t=
o have the 1-2 proxies and also on the configuration
 part, I&#8217;m reoffering this proposed text charter so that we can have =
something concrete to discuss:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Ma=
ny operators now contemplate the use of MPTCP to optimize resource<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">us=
age in the various access networks (both wired and wireless) they<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">op=
erate. Corresponding designs assume MPTCP proxy capabilities that<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">ma=
y be embedded in CPE devices and/or in the operator's network.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">No=
 assumption is made about the location of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">MP=
TCP proxy inside an operator&#8217;s network.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Th=
e WG will investigate solutions to address these<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">ta=
rget deployments. Deployment considerations as well as means to<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">pr=
ovision configuration information to MPTCP proxies will also be<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">do=
cumented by the WG.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB">
<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.co=
m</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mailto:mohamed.bouca=
dair@orange.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 16 November 2016 15:27<br>
<b>To:</b> Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt=
.com">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Phil,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you for the feedback.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Please see inline.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">De&nbsp;:</sp=
an></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">
<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">philip.eardley@bt.com</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 16 novembre 2016 16:03<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; <a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp=
@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Assessm=
ent criteria &#8211; not an RFC. Perhaps it doesn&#8217;t need saying in th=
e charter.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] I don&#8217;t think we ne=
ed to say that in the charter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">The poi=
nt is that the process will follow this approach: discuss criteria; gets pr=
oposals against these criteria.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] That&#8217;s one way to p=
roceed, but not the only one. I prefer a more pragmatic approach that we st=
art with a candidate document that will be updated to
 record any consensus from the WG. We can progress in // as suggested by th=
e recent IESG statement:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&#8220;When the problem scop=
e is well understood and agreed
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">upon, charters focused on so=
lutions work are extremely efficient.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Don&#82=
17;t want to presume there won&#8217;t be other proposals and starting poin=
ts. The discussion so far seems to suggest there are other ideas<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Ideas do not mean necessa=
rily new solutions or documents. As I mentioned earlier, the current merged=
 draft is not frozen, inputs/comments/suggestions
 are more than welcome.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Target =
design objectives &#8211; please can you point me to where the objectives o=
f your proposal are listed. That will be useful input for me &amp; Yoshi to=
 produce an initial version of the assessment criteria.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] This is mentioned in the =
Introduction of the draft:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; No encapsulation=
 required (no tunnels, whatsoever).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; No out-of-band s=
ignaling for each MPTCP subflow is required.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Avoids interfere=
nce with native MPTCP connections.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Targets both on-=
path and off-path MCPs.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Accommodates var=
ious deployment contexts, such as those that<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requir=
e the preservation of the source IP address and others<o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; charac=
terized by an address sharing design.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">I&#8217;m putting aside this one as I=
 believe it is contentious: <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;o&nbsp; Carries any=
 protocol for the benefit of massive MPTCP adoption.<o:p></o:p></span></pre=
>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">I think=
 the charter text should be explicit about two-ended proxy &#8211; as I und=
erstand it, that&#8217;s what matches the current deployments (not 1-ended)=
, so that&#8217;s what I think the focus should be.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Both single and two-ended=
 proxies are considered by operators. That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m suggesting=
 to cite both.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Discuss=
ion would be useful on two of your points:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Firstly=
, deployment considerations. What do people think would be useful here? Exp=
eriences from deployments? Implementation advice? What information has to b=
e configured (in some unspecified way)
 on the proxies? Something else?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[I thin=
k it would be useful to capture at least some of this information]<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] What I have in mind is th=
e kind of details included in
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considera=
tions-00.html">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nam-mptcp-deployment-considerations-00.ht=
ml</a>. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Second,=
 provision of configuration information to MPTCP proxies. As I understand i=
t, this will be done by manual configuration, or DHCP extensions, or someth=
ing else. My initial reaction is that
 I think these things are outside the scope of the WG. But the WG can help =
motivate work elsewhere.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] The problem is that the D=
HC WG charter is explicit about this:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&quot;Definitions of new DHCP options that are delivered =
using standard<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">mechanisms with documented semantics are not considered a=
 protocol<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">extension and thus are outside of scope for the DHC WG. S=
uch options<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^^^^^^^^^^^^<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">should be defined within their respective WGs and reviewe=
d by DHCP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">experts in the Internet Area Directorate. However, if suc=
h options<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">require protocol extensions or new semantics, the protoco=
l extension<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">work must be done in the DHC WG.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I&#8217;m reiterating my reques=
t to include those in the updated charter. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Thank you.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">phil<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB">
<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.co=
m</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mailto:mohamed.bouca=
dair@orange.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 16 November 2016 10:06<br>
<b>To:</b> Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt=
.com">philip.eardley@bt.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy item<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Phil,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you for sharing this text=
.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I would like to make several co=
mments:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">I don&#8217;t think that assessment criteria an=
d analysis are to be considered as deliverables (hinted by &#8220;producing=
&#8221; wording in the proposed text). This is IMHO part of the
 normal handling of proposals within WGs. The analysis may be more or less =
formal, but we don&#8217;t need to say it explicitly in a charter.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">At this stage, I only see one merged proposal t=
hat is endorsed by a group of people who have the energy to work on this. T=
his group is ready to lead this work to capture
 and record the consensus of the WG when it comes to technical design choic=
es. Like any IETF draft, that merged proposal is not frozen.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">From where I sit, I didn&#8217;t hear objection=
s about the target design objectives of the Network-assisted MPTCP solution=
 (0-RTT proxying, avoid interference with native MPTCP
 connection, encourage the establishment of e2e MPTCP connections, etc.) bu=
t some disagreements about how to structure the additional data to be suppl=
ied during the 3WHS. Those are fair objections that can be handled using th=
e normal IETF procedure (i.e., consensus).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black">=B7</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">There was also some interest in the deployment =
document as a companion material to have a big picture of the Network-Assis=
ted MPTCP models. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">In summary, I would like to cha=
rter to be more explicit/clear the MPTCP proxy work is definitely in scope.=
 Below a text proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Ma=
ny operators now contemplate the use of MPTCP to optimize resource<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">us=
age in the various access networks (both wired and wireless) they<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">op=
erate. Corresponding designs assume MPTCP proxy capabilities that<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">ma=
y be embedded in CPE devices and/or in the operator's network.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Ty=
pically, an MPTCP proxy may be embedded in the Customer Premises<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Eq=
uipment (CPE) and/or in the operator&#8217;s network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">No=
 assumption is made about the location of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">MP=
TCP proxy inside an operator&#8217;s network.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Th=
e WG will investigate solutions to address these<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">ta=
rget deployments. Deployment considerations as well as means to<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">pr=
ovision configuration information to MPTCP proxies will also be<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">do=
cumented by the WG.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR=
">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:FR"> m=
ultipathtcp
 [<a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:multipathtcp-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> <a href=3D"mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com">philip.eardle=
y@bt.com</a><br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mardi 15 novem</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language=
:FR">bre 2016 17:24<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org">multipathtcp@iet=
f.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> [multipathtcp] Proposed charter text for MPTCP proxy it=
em<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Following our discussion on yes=
terday&#8217;s WG meeting, here is some proposed text for the charter:-<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">MPTCP is now seeing widespre=
ad deployment in networks to bond together two accesses, such as fixed and =
mobile broadband. The scenario typically features two proxies, one in the h=
ome gateway (&#8216;CPE&#8217;) and one in the network,
 both under the control of the operator. The WG will analyse proposed solut=
ions for this scenario by producing:-<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">* assessment criteria for so=
lutions; support of non-TCP traffic is not a criteria. The WG Chairs will p=
roduce the initial version.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">* analysis of proposed solut=
ions against these criteria, as well as what updates they would require to =
RFC6824bis. &nbsp;As a result, the WG may agree to go forward with the favo=
ured solution.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Comments?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Phil &amp; Yoshi<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DB5901OPEXCLILMA3corp_--


From nobody Tue Nov 22 07:24:22 2016
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] [iccrg] LISA - Linked Slow-Start for MPTCP => ICCRG
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Hi Michael,

Sorry for my slow response and thanks for the explanation.
So, In my understanding, the design goal of LISA is similar to HyStart
in a sense, but use simpler algorithm as design choice.
If this presumption is right, when we have some external knowledge
about the paths, I'm guessing we might be able to do something
different rather than using fixed value. It's just an idea, though.

Thanks,
--
Yoshi







On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:49 PM, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
> Hi Yoshi!
>
> Thanks a lot for asking!  I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a naive ques=
tion at all.
>
> *** DISCLAIMER START ***
>
> I=E2=80=99ll preface my answer with a disclaimer: we focus our evaluation=
s on the
> non-shared bottleneck case because it=E2=80=99s the worst case - when pat=
hs DO share
> a bottleneck, uncoupled Slow Start in MPTCP breaks goal 2 laid out in RFC
> 6356 (=E2=80=9Cdo no harm=E2=80=9D), and that should be reason enough to =
fix it.
> So, by looking at the impact on Flow Completion Time (FCT) in the non-sha=
red
> bottleneck case, we=E2=80=99re really not very fair towards ourselves. If=
 the impact
> on FCT isn=E2=80=99t too bad then that=E2=80=99s in fact already a super =
good result. I want
> folks to understand that   :-)
>
> Also, just as a reminder for everyone, slides and a paper with many resul=
ts
> and explanations are at: http://heim.ifi.uio.no/runabk/lisa/
>
> *** DISCLAIMER END ***
>
>
> With this out of the way, let me try to answer your question.
>
> At a high (simplistic) level, your question is a bit similar to asking =
=E2=80=9Cwhy
> doesn=E2=80=99t Cubic=E2=80=99s HyStart hurt?=E2=80=9D - like LISA, it ma=
kes slow start less
> aggressive, and that leads to benefits.
>
> The similarities stop there  :-)    HyStart attenuates SS much, much more
> (actually LISA doesn=E2=80=99t "attenuate SS" but tries to turn
> SS+number_of_subflows*IW into SS on the wire, and it only operates once,
> very briefly, not from a certain point until the end of SS). HyStart trie=
s
> to persistently get a benefit by attenuating SS at just the right time ba=
sed
> on delay measurements, whereas LISA does it temporarily after a fixed num=
ber
> of round-trips. So, as a result, whether LISA yields a benefit in the
> non-shared bottleneck case is pretty much a matter of luck. But the botto=
m
> line is: making SS a little aggressive can, by itself, sometimes be a goo=
d
> thing. At least it doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be a very bad thing.
>
> At a finer-grain level, things may get a bit clearer when we look at an
> example.
>
> Consider 2 subflows, with IW 10 and equal RTTs (just to keep things simpl=
e).
> The first subflow has cwnd=3D10, then 20, then 40. In the round where it
> reaches 40, the second subflow is started with IW=3D10. If you look at th=
e
> diagram on page 4 of the slides I showed yesterday (sorry, I didn=E2=80=
=99t have
> time to explain that diagram in my presentation), you can see it - look f=
or
> the point where y=3D40 and x=3Dapprox. 0.3:
> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-iccrg-update-on-lisa=
-a-linked-slow-start-algorithm-for-mptcp-draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-01-00.pdf
>
> So what you get is, without LISA:
> flow 1, on path 1: cwnd =3D 10, 20, 40, 80, 160=E2=80=A6
> flow 2, on path 2: cwnd =3D X, X, 10, 20, 40=E2=80=A6
>
> and with LISA:
> flow 1, on path 1: cwnd =3D 10, 20, 30, 60, 120=E2=80=A6
> flow 2, on path 2: cwnd =3D X, X, 10, 20, 40=E2=80=A6
>
> (=E2=80=9CX" meaning =E2=80=9Cnot active yet=E2=80=9D)
>
> So, for better or worse, with LISA, the burst size is different when flow=
 1
> (probably the first) exceeds the capacity limit. This influences the amou=
nt
> of overshoot (which otherwise depends on the queue size and the BDP).
> How good or bad different amounts of overshoot play out, depends on=E2=80=
=A6 well=E2=80=A6
> the queue length; the back off factor (e.g. better with Cubic than Reno;
> generally of course best with ECN+ABE   ;-)   ); the presence of TLP; ...
>
> So it=E2=80=99s just not persistently a bad thing to reduce this burst si=
ze -
> unless, of course, your flows have just the right length for them to
> terminate early enough so that the reduced aggression yields an extra
> round-trip. That=E2=80=99s also a narrow range, the flow size must be gre=
ater than
> 10+20+40 packets for LISA to even kick in, but not large enough to exceed
> the bandwidth limit because then we=E2=80=99re back with this more random=
 outcome
> described above.
>
> Does that help?  Clearly it=E2=80=99s not simple =E2=80=A6 the non-linear=
 impact of this SS
> burst reduction on the overshoot and, with it, the cwnd size immediately
> after slow start can be seen on slide 8 of the slides from yesterday - sa=
me
> short URL again:
> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-iccrg-update-on-lisa=
-a-linked-slow-start-algorithm-for-mptcp-draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-01-00.pdf
>
> E.g. in this case, LISA strictly only made things better in the range whe=
re
> the queue length was between approx 8 and 20: the cwnd at the end was a b=
it
> higher, and that coincides with less retransmissions.
>
> I hope that helps?
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2016, at 12:11 AM, Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> I've tried to ask a naive question at the meeting, but I missed the
> chance due to time restriction..
>
> If the paths don't share a bottleneck, i am guessing it might be too
> conservative especially when the paths are not competed with other
> flows.
> I am wondering why this is slightly conservative and doesn't hurt.
> Some cases should be true, but I just thought some cases are not.
> --
> Yoshi
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 12:40 AM, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> wrot=
e:
>
> Dear all,
>
> LISA is a simple algorithm that couples MPTCP subflows in slow-start, to
> reduce bursts that happen when multiple sub-flows start up with a delay a=
nd
> all send their IW, all in SS.
> We found this effect to be generally bad (i.e., improved with LISA :-) )
> when subflows do share a bottleneck, and we find that this slightly more
> conservative behavior also doesn't hurt (actually, sometimes it's a benef=
it)
> when they do *not* share a bottleneck. After all, slow-start is very
> aggressive anyway - is it really so important for the 2nd, 3rd... subflow=
 of
> MPTCP to be  *that* aggressive?
>
> We presented it to MPTCP at the last IETF, and in Yokohama.
> There's a draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barik-mptcp-lisa-01
> and a page with slides, a published paper with results, and code:
> http://heim.ifi.uio.no/runabk/lisa/
>
> The way ahead, as agreed with the MPTCP chairs, is to either publish via
> MPTCP if their future charter will allow, or else publish this via ICCRG.
> Either way, for now, discussion of this draft should happen in the ICCRG
> mailing list. We authors would greatly appreciate feedback - so far, we
> didn't get many comments!
>
> Cheers,
> Michael (with Runa & Simone)
>
> _______________________________________________
> multipathtcp mailing list
> multipathtcp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> iccrg mailing list
> iccrg@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/iccrg
>


From nobody Wed Nov 23 03:09:35 2016
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Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 12:09:26 +0100
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9bastien?= Noel <noel@multitel.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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Phil,

> Do people have any experimental results /experiences they could share of
> running UDP applications over MPTCP sub-flows?  Would be interested to he=
ar
> about the issues.
> I guess VoIP and Quic would be the most interesting ones.

To understand the interactions between QUIC and an underlying MPTCP=20
transport, we performed some experiments by running QUIC over OpenVPN=20
that runs itself over an MPTCP connection. This is the closest scenario=20
to what you are discussing based on existing open-source software.

OpenVPN includes some framing to carry UDP and=20
encryption/authentication. These mechanisms add CPU overhead and byte=20
overhead compared to transporting QUIC over a plain MPTCP connection,=20
but this does not change the results of the experiments.

Our measurement setup was the following.

                       /-----\
[client] --- [router1]         [router2] --- [server]
                       \-----/

An openvpn tunnel over MPTCP mode was setup between router 1 & 2.

The client & server were not running an MPTCP kernel.

We simply recorded the time needed to transfer a random 10M file
from server to client while tweaking speed/latency/reliability of each=20
link on router 1 & 2 with netem.

We used quic_server & quic_client
from https://github.com/google/proto-quic


In the following tables, Download/Upload are in Mbps, time in seconds &
performance is a percentage of a perfect theoretical result/max speed
(without any IP or TCP overhead).


1) "no" latency (< 1ms) & no packet loss; different link bandwidths
	=09
Link 1		| Link2		|
--------------------------------|----------------
Down	Upload	| Down	Upload	| time	| perf (%)
-------------------------------------------------
1	1	| 1	1	| 58,1	| 68,85=C2=A0%
1	1	| 2	1	| 48,4	| 55,10=C2=A0%
1	1	| 4	1	| 24,3	| 65,84=C2=A0%
1	1	| 8	1	| 12,3	| 72,27=C2=A0%
1	1	| 10	1	| 10,3	| 70,61=C2=A0%
1	1	| 15	5	| 7,2	| 69,44=C2=A0%
1	1	| 20	5	| 6,5	| 58,61=C2=A0%
1	1	| 25	5	| 18,2	| 16,91=C2=A0%
1	1	| 30	10	| 20,1	| 12,84=C2=A0%
1	1	| 50	10	| 15,5	| 10,12=C2=A0%
2	1	| 2	1	| 31,7	| 63,09=C2=A0%
4	1	| 4	1	| 17,1	| 58,48=C2=A0%
8	1	| 8	1	| 10	| 50,00=C2=A0%
10	1	| 10	1	| 7,3	| 54,79=C2=A0%
15	5	| 15	5	| 6,4	| 41,67=C2=A0%
20	5	| 20	5	| 3,6	| 55,56=C2=A0%
25	5	| 25	5	| 3,3	| 48,48=C2=A0%
30	10	| 30	10	| 2,9	| 45,98=C2=A0%

2) Fixed bandwidth ; no latency ; different packet loss on Link2

Link 1		| Link2			|
----------------------------------------|----------------
Down	Upload	| Down	Upload	P-L(%)	| time	| perf (%)
---------------------------------------------------------
2	1	| 10	2	0	| 9,9	| 67,34=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	1	| 11,2	| 59,52=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	2	| 11,3	| 59,00=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	3	| 11,7	| 56,98=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	4	| 12,3	| 54,20=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	5	| 15,9	| 41,93=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	6	| 16,6	| 40,16=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	7	| 18,7	| 35,65=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	8	| 20,1	| 33,17=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	9	| 23,5	| 28,37=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	10	| 27,4	| 24,33=C2=A0%

3) Fixed bandwidth ; no packet loss ; variable latency (in ms) on Link2

Link 1		| Link2			|
----------------------------------------|----------------
Down	Upload	| Down	Upload	Latency	| time	| perf (%)
---------------------------------------------------------
2	1	| 10	2	0	| 9,9	| 67,34=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	5	| 10	| 66,67=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	10	| 10,1	| 66,01=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	15	| 10,2	| 65,36=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	20	| 10,6	| 62,89=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	30	| 12,2	| 54,64=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	40	| 14,3	| 46,62=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	50	| 16,2	| 41,15=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	60	| 18,2	| 36,63=C2=A0%


IMHO those results confirm the intuition that running a protocol like=20
QUIC that includes its own congestion control and retransmission=20
mechanisms are a reliable bytestream protocol like MPTCP is not a good idea.

As you can see, with QUIC over MPTCP sub-flows, performance seems to=20
drop as soon as you have an unreliable medium or as soon as you have latency

The sames tests were performed again, but this time with HTTP over=20
end-to-end MPTCTP, to have a point of comparison

1b) "no" latency (< 1ms) & no packet loss; variable bandwidth
	=09
Link 1		| Link2		|
--------------------------------|----------------
Down	Upload	| Down	Upload	| time	| perf (%)
-------------------------------------------------
2	1	| 2	1	| 23,5	| 85,11=C2=A0%
4	1	| 4	1	| 11,2	| 89,29=C2=A0%
8	1	| 8	1	| 5,7	| 87,72=C2=A0%
10	1	| 10	1	| 4,9	| 81,63=C2=A0%
15	5	| 15	5	| 3	| 88,89=C2=A0%
20	5	| 20	5	| 2,5	| 80,00=C2=A0%
25	5	| 25	5	| 1,8	| 88,89=C2=A0%
30	10	| 30	10	| 1,5	| 88,89=C2=A0%

This should not surprise the readers of this list, but confirms that=20
MPTCP works well in this environment.

2b) Fixed bandwidth ; no latency ; variable packet loss (P-L) on Link2

Link 1		| Link2			|
----------------------------------------|----------------
Down	Upload	| Down	Upload	P-L(%)	| time	| perf (%)
---------------------------------------------------------
2	1	| 10	2	0	| 8,2	| 81,30=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	1	| 7,8	| 85,47=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	2	| 7,7	| 86,58=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	3	| 7,8	| 85,47=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	4	| 7,7	| 86,58=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	5	| 8,8	| 75,76=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	6	| 8	| 83,33=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	7	| 7,8	| 85,47=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	8	| 7,9	| 84,39=C2=A0%
2	1	| 10	2	9	| 8	| 83,33=C2=A0%

Again, MPTCP adapts correctly to packet losses in the environment.

Given the bad results of running QUIC over MPTCP, we don't plan to=20
analyse this in more details.

Best regards,

S=C3=A9bastien


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From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 15:07:32 +0100
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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Med,
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de
>> Sébastien Noel
>> Envoyé : mercredi 23 novembre 2016 12:09
>> À : philip.eardley@bt.com
>> Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
>>
>> Phil,
>>
>>> Do people have any experimental results /experiences they could share of
>>> running UDP applications over MPTCP sub-flows?  Would be interested to
>> hear
>>> about the issues.
>>> I guess VoIP and Quic would be the most interesting ones.
>>
>> To understand the interactions between QUIC and an underlying MPTCP
>> transport, we performed some experiments by running QUIC over OpenVPN
>> that runs itself over an MPTCP connection. This is the closest scenario
>> to what you are discussing based on existing open-source software.
>
> [Med] The schema we are investigating does not include this cascaded layers. It is only UDP payload transported in plain MPTCP connections.


The cascading layers increase the CPU and byte overhead, but the 
interactions between the congestion control schemes and the reliablity 
mechanisms remains. In the experiment, the CPU is not a concern given 
that PCs were used as routers. The byte overhead influences the maximum 
efficiency of the solution but not how it degrades when there is latency 
or losses. The degration comes form the coupling between the congestion 
control and the reliability mechanisms of both QUIC and MPTCP.

>> OpenVPN includes some framing to carry UDP and
>> encryption/authentication. These mechanisms add CPU overhead and byte
>> overhead compared to transporting QUIC over a plain MPTCP connection,
>> but this does not change the results of the experiments.
>>
>
> [Med] I wouldn't drop that conclusion as the overall performance depends also on the overhead prepended to packets to be injected over the tunnel.
>
> Putting that aside, can you please indicate how the traffic is distributed among available subflows? FWIW, the target traffic distribution policy for the hybrid access is to use the fixed line first, and then grab some resources from the cellular link if needed. So the target objective is not 1+1!
>

That's a policy issue. The experiment was whether both links can be used 
efficiently when running QUIC over MPTCP to transport a long file. If 
your policy delays the utilisation of the second link when the first is 
full, then you will get even lower performance since MPTCP will delay 
the utilisation of the subflows.

>> Our measurement setup was the following.
>>
>>                        /-----\
>> [client] --- [router1]         [router2] --- [server]
>>                        \-----/
>>
>> An openvpn tunnel over MPTCP mode was setup between router 1 & 2.
>>
>> The client & server were not running an MPTCP kernel.
>>
>> We simply recorded the time needed to transfer a random 10M file
>> from server to client while tweaking speed/latency/reliability of each
>> link on router 1 & 2 with netem.
>>
>> We used quic_server & quic_client
>> from https://github.com/google/proto-quic
>>
>>
>> In the following tables, Download/Upload are in Mbps, time in seconds &
>> performance is a percentage of a perfect theoretical result/max speed
>> (without any IP or TCP overhead).
>>
>>
>> 1) "no" latency (< 1ms) & no packet loss; different link bandwidths
>>
>> Link 1		| Link2		|
>> --------------------------------|----------------
>> Down	Upload	| Down	Upload	| time	| perf (%)
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> 1	1	| 1	1	| 58,1	| 68,85 %
>> 1	1	| 2	1	| 48,4	| 55,10 %
>> 1	1	| 4	1	| 24,3	| 65,84 %
>> 1	1	| 8	1	| 12,3	| 72,27 %
>> 1	1	| 10	1	| 10,3	| 70,61 %
>> 1	1	| 15	5	| 7,2	| 69,44 %
>> 1	1	| 20	5	| 6,5	| 58,61 %
>> 1	1	| 25	5	| 18,2	| 16,91 %
>> 1	1	| 30	10	| 20,1	| 12,84 %
>> 1	1	| 50	10	| 15,5	| 10,12 %
>> 2	1	| 2	1	| 31,7	| 63,09 %
>> 4	1	| 4	1	| 17,1	| 58,48 %
>> 8	1	| 8	1	| 10	| 50,00 %
>> 10	1	| 10	1	| 7,3	| 54,79 %
>> 15	5	| 15	5	| 6,4	| 41,67 %
>> 20	5	| 20	5	| 3,6	| 55,56 %
>> 25	5	| 25	5	| 3,3	| 48,48 %
>> 30	10	| 30	10	| 2,9	| 45,98 %
>>
>> 2) Fixed bandwidth ; no latency ; different packet loss on Link2
>>
>> Link 1		| Link2			|
>> ----------------------------------------|----------------
>> Down	Upload	| Down	Upload	P-L(%)	| time	| perf (%)
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>> 2	1	| 10	2	0	| 9,9	| 67,34 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	1	| 11,2	| 59,52 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	2	| 11,3	| 59,00 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	3	| 11,7	| 56,98 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	4	| 12,3	| 54,20 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	5	| 15,9	| 41,93 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	6	| 16,6	| 40,16 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	7	| 18,7	| 35,65 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	8	| 20,1	| 33,17 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	9	| 23,5	| 28,37 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	10	| 27,4	| 24,33 %
>>
>> 3) Fixed bandwidth ; no packet loss ; variable latency (in ms) on Link2
>>
>> Link 1		| Link2			|
>> ----------------------------------------|----------------
>> Down	Upload	| Down	Upload	Latency	| time	| perf (%)
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>> 2	1	| 10	2	0	| 9,9	| 67,34 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	5	| 10	| 66,67 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	10	| 10,1	| 66,01 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	15	| 10,2	| 65,36 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	20	| 10,6	| 62,89 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	30	| 12,2	| 54,64 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	40	| 14,3	| 46,62 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	50	| 16,2	| 41,15 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	60	| 18,2	| 36,63 %
>>
>>
>> IMHO those results confirm the intuition that running a protocol like
>> QUIC that includes its own congestion control and retransmission
>> mechanisms are a reliable bytestream protocol like MPTCP is not a good
>> idea.
>>
>> As you can see, with QUIC over MPTCP sub-flows, performance seems to
>> drop as soon as you have an unreliable medium or as soon as you have
>> latency
>>
>> The sames tests were performed again, but this time with HTTP over
>> end-to-end MPTCTP, to have a point of comparison
>
> [Med] When do you say "end-to-end MPTCP" do you mean MPTCP is enabled by the client and the server?
>

Yes. Given our experience with TCP/MPTCP proxies, the result would have 
been the same with TCP/MPTCP proxies running on the two routers, but 
these proxies could not be integrated in this setup for practical reasons.

>> 1b) "no" latency (< 1ms) & no packet loss; variable bandwidth
>>
>> Link 1		| Link2		|
>> --------------------------------|----------------
>> Down	Upload	| Down	Upload	| time	| perf (%)
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> 2	1	| 2	1	| 23,5	| 85,11 %
>> 4	1	| 4	1	| 11,2	| 89,29 %
>> 8	1	| 8	1	| 5,7	| 87,72 %
>> 10	1	| 10	1	| 4,9	| 81,63 %
>> 15	5	| 15	5	| 3	| 88,89 %
>> 20	5	| 20	5	| 2,5	| 80,00 %
>> 25	5	| 25	5	| 1,8	| 88,89 %
>> 30	10	| 30	10	| 1,5	| 88,89 %
>>
>> This should not surprise the readers of this list, but confirms that
>> MPTCP works well in this environment.
>>
>> 2b) Fixed bandwidth ; no latency ; variable packet loss (P-L) on Link2
>>
>> Link 1		| Link2			|
>> ----------------------------------------|----------------
>> Down	Upload	| Down	Upload	P-L(%)	| time	| perf (%)
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>> 2	1	| 10	2	0	| 8,2	| 81,30 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	1	| 7,8	| 85,47 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	2	| 7,7	| 86,58 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	3	| 7,8	| 85,47 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	4	| 7,7	| 86,58 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	5	| 8,8	| 75,76 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	6	| 8	| 83,33 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	7	| 7,8	| 85,47 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	8	| 7,9	| 84,39 %
>> 2	1	| 10	2	9	| 8	| 83,33 %
>>
>> Again, MPTCP adapts correctly to packet losses in the environment.
>>
>> Given the bad results of running QUIC over MPTCP, we don't plan to
>> analyse this in more details.
>>
>
> [Med] What if you had an option in the MPTCP implementation to relax TCP reliability checks on QUIC-triggered MPTCP connections?

If you disable reliability from MPTCP, you end up using a protocol that 
is very different from MPTCP. In TCP, congestion control and flow 
control are closely coupled with reliable delivery and removing this 
coupling would result in a protocol that would not be TCP anymore.



Olivier


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be" <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>, =?utf-8?B?U8OpYmFzdGllbiBOb2Vs?= <noel@multitel.be>, "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
Thread-Index: AQHSRZL0TCWeYq4nWUq+XkXL99v87KDn7iVw
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 10:32:09 +0000
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References: <4d11a19b2b6644848ce79f55cdbd6ab5@rew09926dag03b.domain1.systemhost.net> <20161123120926.7ed52bd4@sne-UX31E> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009DB7E96@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <b6958439-0495-45f1-8b12-28dcda15ba74@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, =?UTF-8?Q?S=c3=a9bastien_Noel?= <noel@multitel.be>, "philip.eardley@bt.com" <philip.eardley@bt.com>
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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Med,

>>>> To understand the interactions between QUIC and an underlying MPTCP
>>>> transport, we performed some experiments by running QUIC over OpenVPN
>>>> that runs itself over an MPTCP connection. This is the closest scenario
>>>> to what you are discussing based on existing open-source software.
>>>
>>> [Med] The schema we are investigating does not include this cascaded
>> layers. It is only UDP payload transported in plain MPTCP connections.
>>
>>
>> The cascading layers increase the CPU and byte overhead, but the
>> interactions between the congestion control schemes and the reliablity
>> mechanisms remains.
>
> [Med] My point is that we need to isolate the impact of those cascaded layers on the CPU/Performance efficiency from pure interactions between the CCs.

Given the performance of the PCs used as router, the CPU has no impact here.

The lessons that we've learned from this experiment, and others where 
users have reported experiments with running TCP over OpenVPN running 
over MPTCP is that it is a bad idea to run a protocol that uses a 
congestion control scheme above a protocol that provides a reliable 
delivery before the reliable delivery comes from retransmissions and 
those retransmissions hide packet losses that serve as indication for 
the congestion controller. This lessons applies to QUIC and similar 
protocols.

If you have other experimental data, please share it on the list so that 
we can discuss based on real data.


Olivier




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Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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From: Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
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Subject: [multipathtcp] draft minutes for Seoul meeting
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Hello,
I just uploaded draft minutes for Seoul meeting on the following URL.

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/minutes/minutes-97-mptcp-00.txt

Please let us know if you have any comments or questions or corrections.

Thanks,
--
Yoshi & Phil

