From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 1 03:32:49 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA02372 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 03:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D62lN-0001mA-Km; Tue, 01 Mar 2005 03:29:53 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D62hI-0001Bf-Sf for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2005 03:25:43 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA01831 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 03:25:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailsrv.psl.com.sg ([202.14.153.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D62Z1-0005Ic-Eu for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2005 03:17:09 -0500 Received: from mozart.psl.com.sg (beethoven.psl.com.sg [10.81.113.99]) by mailsrv.psl.com.sg (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j218CZuq027513; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:12:35 +0800 (SGT) Received: by mozart.psl.com.sg (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E8242300BC1; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:29:06 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: [nemo] CFP NEMO WG slot From: Chan-Wah Ng To: Thierry Ernst , "T.J. Kniveton" In-Reply-To: <20050223215358.20cab146.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> References: <20050223215358.20cab146.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Panasonic Singapore Laboratories Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:29:06 +0800 Message-Id: <1109665746.9286.72.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chairs, I would like to request a slot for (1) [TOPIC] the update of draft-ietf-nemo-multihoming-issue. [ISSUES] The main focus here is to get consensus on the new text on identifying which issues to be solved by the WG. [SPEAKER] myself [DRAFT] draft-ietf-nemo-multihoming-issues-02.txt [LENGTH] 15-20 mins [WG RELEVANCE] Its a WG document .... :) If time allows, I'll like to request for the slot that was canceled in San Diego: (2) [TOPIC] Security issue of sending prefix-scoped BU to CN [ISSUES] Raise WG awareness on the inadequacy of RR with prefix-scoped BU [SPEAKER] myself [DRAFT] draft-ng-nemo-rrnp-00.txt [LENGTH] 5 mins [WG RELEVANCE] Its a consideration for the WG when analyzing NEMO-Extended. Lastly, I presume the chairs will be handling the issue of WG RO-Analsys/Problem-Statement draft. Let me know if I presume wrongly. /rgds /cwng On Wed, 2005-02-23 at 21:53 +0900, Thierry Ernst wrote: > Dear all, > > According to the draft agenfa, the NEMO WG would meet: > 1500-1530 Break (Refreshments provided) - Ballroom Foyer, 3rd Floor > 1530-1730 Afternoon Sessions II > INT nemo Network Mobility WG > > If you want to get a slot to discuss a particular topic and you haven't > emailed TJ or myself yet, please do so now and provide the following > - topic > - issue to be discussed > - name of speaker > - relevant draft or mailing list thread > - length > - how does it relate to the WG goals and milestones > > In addition to the usual slots: > - Agenda bashing > - Status on WG documents > (home model; NEMO BS, Terminology, requirement, MIB, multihoming) > - Conclusions and next steps > > requests on the following topics will be allocated time in priority: > - v4 traversal for the NEMO protocol > - Prefix Delegation for NEMO BS > - Multihoming > -- Which issues should be solved by the NEMO WG ? > -- Solutions on specific NEMO multihohming issues > - RO discussion > -- Status > -- Do we have concensus on the WG document content ? > -- What are the main RO issues to solve > - Report of TAHI and Connectathon events > > > Also, if you have submiited a new version of a draft and you haven't > announced it yet on the mailing list, please do so and try to raise some > discussion. > > Thierry > > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 3 01:34:44 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA18058 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D6jtN-0006R6-Hw; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 01:33:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D6jtK-0006Qp-Di for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 01:32:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA17807 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:32:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from popeye.snu.ac.kr ([147.46.240.214]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D6juZ-0006s1-PK for nemo@ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 01:34:19 -0500 Received: from popeye.snu.ac.kr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by popeye.snu.ac.kr (8.13.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j236LbJp022280 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO); Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:21:37 +0900 Received: (from shcho@localhost) by popeye.snu.ac.kr (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id j236LbEJ022279; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:21:37 +0900 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:21:37 +0900 From: Seongho Cho To: Fan Zhao Subject: Re: [nemo] draft-zhao-mip6-rr-ext-01 Message-ID: <20050303152137.A13193@popeye.snu.ac.kr> References: <200502220021.j1M0LH3M007209@phaenicia.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200502220021.j1M0LH3M007209@phaenicia.ucdavis.edu>; from fanzhao@ucdavis.edu on Mon, Feb 21, 2005 at 04:21:17PM -0800 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Hi Fan, I read your RR extension draft, draft-zhao-mip6-rr-ext-01.txt. I think this draft can be quite informative for the RO solution in NEMO. But I have some questions on the assumption and mechanism. In Section 3, other assumptions seems reasonable. But, I think an unmalicious CN should be explained concretely. I think the unmalicious HA is quite different with the unmalicious CN. Can you explain CN assumption in detail? In Subsection 4.7, to provide the non-repudiation, authentication and signature are required, not just the public key. I think there should be more explaination or justification. Bests, Seongho From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 3 08:06:12 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA20506 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D6pzo-000873-Pd; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:04:04 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D6pzn-00086u-CU for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:04:03 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA20206 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:04:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.142.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D6q18-0008HP-QQ for nemo@ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:05:28 -0500 Received: from iseran.local (jules.nautilus6.org [203.178.138.2]) by mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694794C6B7 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:03:52 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:08:08 +0900 From: Thierry Ernst To: nemo Message-Id: <20050303220808.6245eda8.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; powerpc-apple-darwin7.8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Multipart=_Thu__3_Mar_2005_22_08_08_+0900_=t7rG0cBTzzmVyef" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68ba2b07ef271dba6ee42a93832cfa4c Subject: [nemo] NEMO WG Agenda Wed. 09 15:30-17:30 X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Multipart=_Thu__3_Mar_2005_22_08_08_+0900_=t7rG0cBTzzmVyef Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, Here is a draft agenda - it's still unclear if we will speak about prefix delegation or not. 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from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D6q0g-0008Gk-LU for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:04:59 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA20348 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:04:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.142.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D6q1y-0008Iu-9l for nemo@ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:06:23 -0500 Received: from iseran.local (jules.nautilus6.org [203.178.138.2]) by mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 196EC4C6B7; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:04:44 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:09:00 +0900 From: Thierry Ernst To: chan , nemo Subject: Re: [nemo] CFP NEMO WG slot Message-Id: <20050303220900.0995a841.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: <1109665746.9286.72.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> References: <20050223215358.20cab146.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1109665746.9286.72.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; powerpc-apple-darwin7.8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, > On 05/03/01 ChanWah wrote: > Lastly, I presume the chairs will be handling the issue of WG > RO-Analsys/Problem-Statement draft. Let me know if I presume wrongly. Yes. And I have asked Zhao to recap the current status of the NEMO RO discussion since last IETF, so I hope you guys are able to sync yourselves into a fair description of where we all are now. Let me remind that we at least have the following 4 drafts on the table: NEMO Route Optimization Problem Statement and Analysis http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-zhao-nemo-ro-ps-01.txt Route Optimization with Nested Correspondent Nodes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-watari-nemo-nested-cn-01.txt Taxonomy of Route Optimization models in the Nemo Context http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04.txt NEMO Route Optimisation Problem Statement http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-clausen-nemo-ro-problem-statement-00.txt Thierry. From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 3 12:06:27 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18542 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D6tih-0005Bi-4a; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:02:39 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D6tie-0005BH-FA for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:02:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18181 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:02:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.uc3m.es ([163.117.136.121]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D6tk2-0005m4-Dr for nemo@ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:04:03 -0500 Received: from smtp01.uc3m.es (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65DFB533ED; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:02:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from [163.117.139.55] (chelo-it-uc3m-es.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.55]) by smtp01.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A9104DCD7; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:02:22 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <1109644795.9286.17.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> References: <200502222106.QAA21649@ietf.org> <72f0a85ad43327f48abfec959488595c@it.uc3m.es> <1109252502.19951.68.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <704f80d0def10daef1a8c4d570c65c1f@it.uc3m.es> <1109644795.9286.17.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Re: [nemo] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-nemo-multihoming-issues-02.txt Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:02:21 +0100 To: Chan-Wah Ng X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b8f3559805f7873076212d6f63ee803e Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo WG X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chan-Wah, >> >> indeed, but this essentially means that you are adopting source >> address >> depedendent (SAD) routing within the nemo, which one of the general >> approaches that you can use for dealing with ingress filtering in >> multihomed environments. > > Yes, in fact, having normal MMNs (host) to use different default > routers > corresponding to different source address prefix is also a form of > SAD-routing. > well, there is a difference between source routing and source address dependent routing, right? I mean i think that MNM select among different default router is a form of source routing but not actually SAD routing. But in any case, i think this is perhaps too much distinction. > >> Now, this is not as simple as it seems since basically you are >> changing >> the routing paradigm within the network, which may have unforeseen >> consequences (i am not trying to spread fud here, just re-stating some >> concerns that were expressed during the discussions of these topics in >> multi6) >> >> In addition, R does no need to be a MR, it just need to implement SAD >> routing, no need for the complete MR functionality. >> >> So, this problem is general to all mutlihomed networks, and the >> approaches imho are the same whether the network is mobile or not. for >> general approaches to the ingress filtering problem in multihomed >> networks, please refer to draft-huitema-multi6-ingress-filtering-00 >> > > Agreed. How about we rewriting the statement to: > > A possible approach to solving this is to employ some kind of > source > address dependent routing in the MNNs (such as requiring MNNs to > set their default router to the MR that advertises the MNP the MNNs > configured their address from). There are certain issues and > considerations associated with such an approach, and the readers > are referred to [draft-huitema] for a more detailed analysis. > The only thing that bothers me about the default router part is that it is not trivial from this to deduce that also mobile routers have to do this, which is as you mentioned earlier, required for this to work. see what i mean? > -- 8< consensus portions snipped >8 -- > >>>> >>>> Later on, it is stated that >>>> >>>> To avoid ingress filtering mechanisms dropping packets in such >>>> situations, MR(s) can stop advertising P1. This would prevent >>>> MNNs >>>> from using the address auto-configured on this prefix. >>>> >>>> Now for this you need additional stuff: >>>> first you need a mechanism to detect the failure that is addressed >>>> later on on the draft (i would suggest a reference to the next >>>> section) >>> OK. >>> >>>> Second you need to use something like router renumbering or dhcp >>>> prefix >>>> delegation when the nemo has more than one link, since Router >>>> advertisment is link scoped. >>> >>> OK. But most of this occurs in normal site multihoming, so I guess >>> the >>> best approach for us is to provide more extensive reference to all >>> the >>> work done in multi6. >>> >> >> agree, but most of the items above also fall into this category. For >> instance all the ingress filtering problems, source address selection >> issues, failure detection mechanisms also are common with multi6 ones. >> > > Yes, in the next version, we would reference more extensively to the > work done in multi6. > >> I think that you have try to do this in the new version of the draft, >> i >> will comment on that on another message. >> >>>> >>>> I mean, all this ingress filtering stuff is not so easily solved in >>>> the >>>> general case, imho in some configurations you will need or: >>>> - a mesh of tunnels between the MR >>>> - source address dependetn routing in the nemo >>> >>>> see draft-huitema-multi6-ingress-filtering-00.txt for more details >>>> >>> >>>> Section 4.4 Failure Detection it is stated that >>>> >>>> There are other failure modes to consider as well, such as >>>> failure at >>>> home agent, failure at access routers, or in general failure of >>>> a >>>> link or node along the path from the mobile router to the home >>>> agent. >>>> By the nature of the routing infrastructure, failure of >>>> intermediate >>>> nodes or links are recovered by the the routing infrastructure >>>> by >>>> choosing a different route. >>>> >>>> >>>> this is clearly not the case in multihoming. I mean in the case >>>> where >>>> the multihomed nemo has multiple prefixes and each one is associated >>>> with a different home link, the communication will be preserved by >>>> using a differnet address that is routed through a different home >>>> network, In this case, you need to change addresses, so the routing >>>> infrastructure will not do the trick. >>>> I mean, in the other failure modes you cannot assume that the >>>> problem >>>> will be solved by the routing infrastructure (if not multi6 would be >>>> out of work :-) >>> >>> I think you misinterpret that statement, or equally probable, we did >>> not >>> write the statement clearly. What it mean is that for failure that >>> occurs in routing infrastructure, the routing infrastructure would >>> recover itself ... since IETF designed it to self-healing. I guess >>> we >>> should re-write the statement to clearly state that. >>> >> >> Well, i think that the problem is more complex than this, let me try >> to >> expand on this. >> >> Suppose that we have a (*,n,n) nemo, where each HA is located is a >> different home network, which has a different global prefix. So this >> means that if there is a failure in one of the home networks, the nemo >> is reachable through the alternative home netwrok, but using an >> alternative address/prefix. >> >> Now suppose that an outage occurs in the routing infrastructure that >> affects the path between the Internet and one of the Home networks, As >> you say, the routing system will attempt to obtain alternative paths. >> More precisely, this means that BGP will identify the outage, identify >> alternative paths and the reconverge to the alternative route. The >> problem is that this may take a while (180 sec is the recommended >> value >> for BGP to detect an outage, then you need to reconverge, which may >> take also a while) >> >> Now, in this scenario, probably the multihoming mechanisms of the nemo >> will react faster than the routing system in some cases. so probably >> even if the outage can be recovered through the routing system, >> multihoming mechanisms will provide a better response and react >> faster. >> Makes sense? >> >> I mean, multihoming mechanisms of multi6 are end to end, so there are >> no failures modes that are not covered by them (by definition) >> > > That I concur. So, may I suggest that we add a few statements after > the > original text to describe that (1) recovery would be faster by using > multihoming mechanism than to rely on routing infrastructure, and (2) > NEMO WG should adopt any multihoming solution developed by multi6. > ok, but i am not sure that multi6 will provide all that nemo needs regards, marcelo > >>>> Finally, separate the references in normative informative >>> >>> Hmmm... is that necessary? I mean, the draft itself is an >>> informational document. >> >> I think so, but i guess the chairs can tell us about this. >> > > Would the chairs care to comment? > > /rgds > /cwng > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 3 18:11:55 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA27050 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:11:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D6zTQ-0006ar-N4; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:11:16 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D6zTO-0006am-BN for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:11:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26943 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from style.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.143.88]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D6zUo-00068b-Tr for nemo@ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:12:44 -0500 Received: from localhost (style.sfc.wide.ad.jp [IPv6:2001:200:0:8801:202:b3ff:fe87:cb44]) by style.sfc.wide.ad.jp (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j23N9s8d051369; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:09:55 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 08:09:54 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20050304.080954.41679403.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> To: cwng@psl.com.sg Subject: Re: [nemo] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04.txt] From: Masafumi Watari In-Reply-To: <1109212478.19951.18.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> References: <1109212478.19951.18.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2rc3 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chan-Wah, Thanks for the submittion of the updated draft. > Oh, and yes, as always comments/criticisms on the RO-taxonomy draft is > always welcomed, regardless of harsh, gentle, or otherwise :). At the moment, I just have one comment on Section 5.1 where you describe the effects of additional signaling overhead. The effect mentioned in the section is focused on the number of signaling messages to construct the optimal path, but I think its also important to mention what the effect of these messages causes on handoffs in terms of delay. Since some solutions require collaboration of the MRs to construct the optimal path, the change of attachment point of root-MR (or other MR as well) requires a reconstruction of the path for RO. In general, more signaling messages means more time before the communication resumes, so we would want to keep this at its minimum. So I think that there could be section where we analyze the effects of handoff in relations with delay, number of signaling messages, and nest level. Maybe somewhere in Section 5 since it's a tradeoff of having RO. What do you think? regards, watari From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 3 21:27:22 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA11728 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:27:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D72V2-0004FA-Ca; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:25:08 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D72V0-0004F5-Cp for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:25:06 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA11606 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:25:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailsrv.psl.com.sg ([202.14.153.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D72WR-0001K3-Mo for nemo@ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:26:37 -0500 Received: from mozart.psl.com.sg (beethoven.psl.com.sg [10.81.113.99]) by mailsrv.psl.com.sg (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j242LVqJ004782; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:21:31 +0800 (SGT) Received: by mozart.psl.com.sg (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 435A0300BC1; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:38:28 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: [nemo] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04.txt] From: Chan-Wah Ng To: Masafumi Watari In-Reply-To: <20050304.080954.41679403.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> References: <1109212478.19951.18.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050304.080954.41679403.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Panasonic Singapore Laboratories Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:38:27 +0800 Message-Id: <1109903908.9350.11.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Watari-san, On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 08:09 +0900, Masafumi Watari wrote: > Hi Chan-Wah, > > Thanks for the submittion of the updated draft. > > > Oh, and yes, as always comments/criticisms on the RO-taxonomy draft is > > always welcomed, regardless of harsh, gentle, or otherwise :). > > At the moment, I just have one comment on Section 5.1 where you > describe the effects of additional signaling overhead. The effect > mentioned in the section is focused on the number of signaling > messages to construct the optimal path, but I think its also important > to mention what the effect of these messages causes on handoffs in > terms of delay. Since some solutions require collaboration of the MRs > to construct the optimal path, the change of attachment point of > root-MR (or other MR as well) requires a reconstruction of the path > for RO. In general, more signaling messages means more time before > the communication resumes, so we would want to keep this at its > minimum. > > So I think that there could be section where we analyze the effects of > handoff in relations with delay, number of signaling messages, and > nest level. Maybe somewhere in Section 5 since it's a tradeoff of > having RO. > > What do you think? I think you've made a valid observation, and an excellent suggestion. The description regarding BU-storm is an (feeble) attempt on my part to quantitatively analyze the effect of the so-called BU-Storm, but obviously I have not take into consideration all the relevant factors. Someone (I think its Alexandru) mentioned something about a paper that quantify the effect of BU-Storm and found it to be not very significant. I have yet to locate that piece of academic work. Should anyone have any pointer to it, I would be very grateful if this anyone could share it with the WG. /rgds /cwng From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 3 22:58:14 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA19582 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D73wI-0000Cl-LJ; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:57:22 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D73wG-0000Cg-He for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:57:20 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA19534 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailsrv.psl.com.sg ([202.14.153.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D73xk-0003Bd-Ha for nemo@ietf.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:58:53 -0500 Received: from mozart.psl.com.sg (beethoven.psl.com.sg [10.81.113.99]) by mailsrv.psl.com.sg (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j243rk7s008756; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:53:46 +0800 (SGT) Received: by mozart.psl.com.sg (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8E616300BC1; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:10:43 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: [nemo] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-nemo-multihoming-issues-02.txt From: Chan-Wah Ng To: marcelo bagnulo braun In-Reply-To: References: <200502222106.QAA21649@ietf.org> <72f0a85ad43327f48abfec959488595c@it.uc3m.es> <1109252502.19951.68.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <704f80d0def10daef1a8c4d570c65c1f@it.uc3m.es> <1109644795.9286.17.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Panasonic Singapore Laboratories Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:10:43 +0800 Message-Id: <1109909443.9350.29.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 848ed35f2a4fc0638fa89629cb640f48 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo WG X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Marcelo, On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 18:02 +0100, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote: > Hi Chan-Wah, > >> > >> indeed, but this essentially means that you are adopting source > >> address > >> depedendent (SAD) routing within the nemo, which one of the general > >> approaches that you can use for dealing with ingress filtering in > >> multihomed environments. > > > > Yes, in fact, having normal MMNs (host) to use different default > > routers > > corresponding to different source address prefix is also a form of > > SAD-routing. > > > > well, there is a difference between source routing and source address > dependent routing, right? > I mean i think that MNM select among different default router is a form > of source routing but not actually SAD routing. But in any case, i > think this is perhaps too much distinction. Well, I don't know. The term "source-address-dependent" routing is new to me. To me, if the forwarding agent makes routing decision taking into consideration the source-address of a packet, it is source routing. > > > > >> Now, this is not as simple as it seems since basically you are > >> changing > >> the routing paradigm within the network, which may have unforeseen > >> consequences (i am not trying to spread fud here, just re-stating some > >> concerns that were expressed during the discussions of these topics in > >> multi6) > >> > >> In addition, R does no need to be a MR, it just need to implement SAD > >> routing, no need for the complete MR functionality. > >> > >> So, this problem is general to all mutlihomed networks, and the > >> approaches imho are the same whether the network is mobile or not. for > >> general approaches to the ingress filtering problem in multihomed > >> networks, please refer to draft-huitema-multi6-ingress-filtering-00 > >> > > > > Agreed. How about we rewriting the statement to: > > > > A possible approach to solving this is to employ some kind of > > source > > address dependent routing in the MNNs (such as requiring MNNs to > > set their default router to the MR that advertises the MNP the MNNs > > configured their address from). There are certain issues and > > considerations associated with such an approach, and the readers > > are referred to [draft-huitema] for a more detailed analysis. > > > > The only thing that bothers me about the default router part is that it > is not trivial from this to deduce that also mobile routers have to do > this, which is as you mentioned earlier, required for this to work. see > what i mean? Yes, let me try again: A possible approach to solving this is to employ some kind of source address routing in the MNNs (such as requiring MNNs to set their default router to the MR that advertises the MNP the MNNs configured their address from, and requiring LFR to make routing decision based on the source address when forwarding packets within a NEMO). There are certain issues and considerations associated with such an approach, and the readers are referred to [draft-huitema] for a more detailed analysis. -- 8< consensus portions snipped >8 -- > >>>> > >>>> I mean, all this ingress filtering stuff is not so easily solved in > >>>> the > >>>> general case, imho in some configurations you will need or: > >>>> - a mesh of tunnels between the MR > >>>> - source address dependetn routing in the nemo > >>> > >>>> see draft-huitema-multi6-ingress-filtering-00.txt for more details > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Section 4.4 Failure Detection it is stated that > >>>> > >>>> There are other failure modes to consider as well, such as > >>>> failure at > >>>> home agent, failure at access routers, or in general failure of > >>>> a > >>>> link or node along the path from the mobile router to the home > >>>> agent. > >>>> By the nature of the routing infrastructure, failure of > >>>> intermediate > >>>> nodes or links are recovered by the the routing infrastructure > >>>> by > >>>> choosing a different route. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> this is clearly not the case in multihoming. I mean in the case > >>>> where > >>>> the multihomed nemo has multiple prefixes and each one is associated > >>>> with a different home link, the communication will be preserved by > >>>> using a differnet address that is routed through a different home > >>>> network, In this case, you need to change addresses, so the routing > >>>> infrastructure will not do the trick. > >>>> I mean, in the other failure modes you cannot assume that the > >>>> problem > >>>> will be solved by the routing infrastructure (if not multi6 would be > >>>> out of work :-) > >>> > >>> I think you misinterpret that statement, or equally probable, we did > >>> not > >>> write the statement clearly. What it mean is that for failure that > >>> occurs in routing infrastructure, the routing infrastructure would > >>> recover itself ... since IETF designed it to self-healing. I guess > >>> we > >>> should re-write the statement to clearly state that. > >>> > >> > >> Well, i think that the problem is more complex than this, let me try > >> to > >> expand on this. > >> > >> Suppose that we have a (*,n,n) nemo, where each HA is located is a > >> different home network, which has a different global prefix. So this > >> means that if there is a failure in one of the home networks, the nemo > >> is reachable through the alternative home netwrok, but using an > >> alternative address/prefix. > >> > >> Now suppose that an outage occurs in the routing infrastructure that > >> affects the path between the Internet and one of the Home networks, As > >> you say, the routing system will attempt to obtain alternative paths. > >> More precisely, this means that BGP will identify the outage, identify > >> alternative paths and the reconverge to the alternative route. The > >> problem is that this may take a while (180 sec is the recommended > >> value > >> for BGP to detect an outage, then you need to reconverge, which may > >> take also a while) > >> > >> Now, in this scenario, probably the multihoming mechanisms of the nemo > >> will react faster than the routing system in some cases. so probably > >> even if the outage can be recovered through the routing system, > >> multihoming mechanisms will provide a better response and react > >> faster. > >> Makes sense? > >> > >> I mean, multihoming mechanisms of multi6 are end to end, so there are > >> no failures modes that are not covered by them (by definition) > >> > > > > That I concur. So, may I suggest that we add a few statements after > > the > > original text to describe that (1) recovery would be faster by using > > multihoming mechanism than to rely on routing infrastructure, and (2) > > NEMO WG should adopt any multihoming solution developed by multi6. > > > > ok, but i am not sure that multi6 will provide all that nemo needs > We have two (perhaps more) possible options here: (1) to charter NEMO-WG to solve multihoming issues that are specific to NEMO, (2) to wait and see what solution multi6 comes up with. I think we can defer debating on this after hearing what you would present next Wednesday? /rgds /cwng From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 4 01:52:00 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA08615 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 01:52:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D76do-0003A7-BT; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 01:50:28 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D76dm-00039I-F9 for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 01:50:26 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA08413 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 01:50:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from node-402449f2.sfo.onnet.us.uu.net ([64.36.73.242] helo=deimos.multihop.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D76fH-0008AV-He for nemo@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 01:52:00 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD51661DF for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from deimos.multihop.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (deimos.multihop.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 90625-05 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix, from userid 1013) id 7F65461D7; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.5.2] (apexpress.tehama.multihop.net [192.168.4.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB40D619C for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:46:45 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0cf93d346a720ff1ff5e5db3d0e63d7f@kniveton.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: IETF NEMO WG From: "T.J.Kniveton" Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:50:05 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at deimos.multihop.net X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [nemo] Jabber scribe X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can someone participate by being a Jabber scribe? Please volunteer now. This is especially important, since I will not be able to attend Minneapolis, but I would like to participate remotely. So each Jabber scribe gets 1 free beer (or beverage of your choice) paid for by me at the next IETF meeting. :-) -TJ From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 4 06:24:04 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA01072 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:24:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7AqY-0001bC-9a; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 06:19:54 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7AqS-0001b7-Ub for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 06:19:49 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA00484 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.142.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7As1-0007SP-4A for nemo@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 06:21:25 -0500 Received: from iseran.local (jules.nautilus6.org [203.178.138.2]) by mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB90A4C516; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:19:30 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:23:47 +0900 From: Thierry Ernst To: nemo@ietf.org Subject: Re: [nemo] Combining / separate Prefix Delegation drafts Message-Id: <20050304202347.501b76ff.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: <3f348d63391feec76e17ebe163313973@kniveton.com> References: <3f348d63391feec76e17ebe163313973@kniveton.com> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; powerpc-apple-darwin7.8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6e922792024732fb1bb6f346e63517e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" , rdroms@cisco.com X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, No body replied this mail from TJ, so it may denote a lack of interest to yet an important question. I think we can reasonably think that lack of any form of reply means rough approval, so I would agree with moving these documents as WG documents. There is just one detail that I would like to clarify: The second draft mentioned by TJ below is indeed DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation for NEMO http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/drafts/draft-droms-nemo-dhcpv6-pd-01.txt Authors: Ralph Droms and Pascal Thubert This draft was last posted in February 6, 2004 and is therefore outdated, and unavailable from the IETF I-D repository. So, before advancing it as a NEMO WG document, my questions to the authors would be: - is there any intention to continue the work on this document ? - will the optimization part be removed of the draft as requested during a former NEMO WG meeting ? Thierry On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:52:47 -0800 "T.J.Kniveton" wrote: > At the last IETF, I presented the draft on Prefix Delegation, and > there was no clear consensus whether that draft should be combined > with the existing DHCPv6 PD draft, or they should be advanced as 2 > separate WG drafts. Please make any comments on that now. > > Here is the excerpt from the minutes: > > > 6. Prefix Delegation ......................................... > > 10mins > > TJ Kniveton > > > > draft-kniveton-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt > > > > Prefix delegation is included in the charter of the WG > > This draft is augmenting the work done by R. Droms > > The goal is to use NEMO signaling for prefix delegation > > New protocol elements are defined to carry prefix requests > > Both Transient (CoA) and Persistent (HoA) prefixes are > > considered This approach complements DHCP methods. > > NEMO signaling has some additional mobility related attributes > > and NEMO based approaches might save flows > > Question to the wg is: Is the WG interested in DHCPv6 only > > method? Does it make sense to merge this approach with DHCPv6? > > > > Questions: > > ---------- > > > > Vijay: I don't agree with statement that the two approaches are > > complementary. DHCP can provide a complete solution. > > TJ: You can have a solution with only DHCP, but there are some > > nemo specifics elements missing. You can also have a solution > > using only nemo signaling also. So there are three options only > > NEMO, DHCP, hybrid. > > Vijay: Could we have two proposed methods, where we just have > > the DHCPv6, and the other with this apporach? > > TJ: We could consider this options. Opinions from the WG? > > Pascal: The motivation part of the draft says clearly why we > > need this so please read it if you haven't. > > Pascal: Do we need to merge this or separate is fine? > > Vijay: Separate is fine > > TJ: No sense from the room. We proceed working with Ralph and > > Pascal and figure out how to integrate those, since there is > > no sense from the room > > Vidya: MIP6 agreed on using NAI for HoA, are we just relying > > on MIP6 for whatever they decide? > > TJ: NEMO is an extension on MIP6, whatever agreement HA and MN > > have, they'll be a parallel set of rules for MR > > Vidya: There needs to be a way for authorizing MR say it's > > acceptable to own this prefix > > TJ: This is an implementation/policy decision, how do we decide > > MR allowed to use a HoA? The same thing happen with prefixes. > > TJ: In conclusion, since there's really no strong oppinion. We > > could advance both of these documents (DHCP based and NEMO > > based) as WG items. > > Ryuji: Both mechanisms are statefull, do we need two statefull > > mechanisms? Do we need a stateless mechanism? > > Erik: This draft will be a wg but i can't find the draft in > > id directory > > TJ: It was submitted late and it is not in directory > > TJ: Ralph's draft is expired > -- Thierry Ernst, PhD WIDE, Jun Murai Lab., Keio University, Japan Nautilus6 Chair: http://www.nautilus6.org Web: http://www.sfc.wide.ad.jp/~ernst/ T:+81-44-580-1600 F:+81-44-580-1437 -- From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 4 06:25:33 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA01259 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7AvO-0002Hg-OO; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 06:24:54 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7AvN-0002Hb-8J for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 06:24:53 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA01221 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:24:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7Awv-0007ZC-Jj for nemo@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 06:26:30 -0500 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Mar 2005 04:40:58 +0000 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="3.90,134,1107734400"; d="scan'208"; a="231372551:sNHT21344296" Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j24BOVqA009689; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 03:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from rdroms-w2k01.cisco.com (sjc-vpn6-30.cisco.com [10.21.120.30]) by flask.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.6-GR) with ESMTP id APO22195; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:24:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20050304062341.0229c000@flask.cisco.com> X-Sender: rdroms@flask.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 06:24:34 -0500 To: Thierry Ernst From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: [nemo] Combining / separate Prefix Delegation drafts In-Reply-To: <20050304202347.501b76ff.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> References: <3f348d63391feec76e17ebe163313973@kniveton.com> <3f348d63391feec76e17ebe163313973@kniveton.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d2e37451f7f22841e3b6f40c67db0f Cc: nemo@ietf.org, "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thierry - I do intend to continue work on the doc (and please accept my apologies for not following up sooner). We will remove the optimization part and publish a revision. - Ralph At 08:23 PM 3/4/2005 +0900, Thierry Ernst wrote: >Dear all, > >No body replied this mail from TJ, so it may denote a lack of interest >to yet an important question. I think we can reasonably think that lack >of any form of reply means rough approval, so I would agree with moving >these documents as WG documents. There is just one detail that I would >like to clarify: > >The second draft mentioned by TJ below is indeed > >DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation for NEMO >http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/drafts/draft-droms-nemo-dhcpv6-pd-01.txt >Authors: Ralph Droms and Pascal Thubert > >This draft was last posted in February 6, 2004 and is therefore >outdated, and unavailable from the IETF I-D repository. So, before >advancing it as a NEMO WG document, my questions to the authors would >be: > >- is there any intention to continue the work on this document ? > >- will the optimization part be removed of the draft as requested during >a former NEMO WG meeting ? > >Thierry > > >On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:52:47 -0800 >"T.J.Kniveton" wrote: > > > At the last IETF, I presented the draft on Prefix Delegation, and > > there was no clear consensus whether that draft should be combined > > with the existing DHCPv6 PD draft, or they should be advanced as 2 > > separate WG drafts. Please make any comments on that now. > > > > Here is the excerpt from the minutes: > > > > > 6. Prefix Delegation ......................................... > > > 10mins > > > TJ Kniveton > > > > > > draft-kniveton-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt > > > > > > Prefix delegation is included in the charter of the WG > > > This draft is augmenting the work done by R. Droms > > > The goal is to use NEMO signaling for prefix delegation > > > New protocol elements are defined to carry prefix requests > > > Both Transient (CoA) and Persistent (HoA) prefixes are > > > considered This approach complements DHCP methods. > > > NEMO signaling has some additional mobility related attributes > > > and NEMO based approaches might save flows > > > Question to the wg is: Is the WG interested in DHCPv6 only > > > method? Does it make sense to merge this approach with DHCPv6? > > > > > > Questions: > > > ---------- > > > > > > Vijay: I don't agree with statement that the two approaches are > > > complementary. DHCP can provide a complete solution. > > > TJ: You can have a solution with only DHCP, but there are some > > > nemo specifics elements missing. You can also have a solution > > > using only nemo signaling also. So there are three options only > > > NEMO, DHCP, hybrid. > > > Vijay: Could we have two proposed methods, where we just have > > > the DHCPv6, and the other with this apporach? > > > TJ: We could consider this options. Opinions from the WG? > > > Pascal: The motivation part of the draft says clearly why we > > > need this so please read it if you haven't. > > > Pascal: Do we need to merge this or separate is fine? > > > Vijay: Separate is fine > > > TJ: No sense from the room. We proceed working with Ralph and > > > Pascal and figure out how to integrate those, since there is > > > no sense from the room > > > Vidya: MIP6 agreed on using NAI for HoA, are we just relying > > > on MIP6 for whatever they decide? > > > TJ: NEMO is an extension on MIP6, whatever agreement HA and MN > > > have, they'll be a parallel set of rules for MR > > > Vidya: There needs to be a way for authorizing MR say it's > > > acceptable to own this prefix > > > TJ: This is an implementation/policy decision, how do we decide > > > MR allowed to use a HoA? The same thing happen with prefixes. > > > TJ: In conclusion, since there's really no strong oppinion. We > > > could advance both of these documents (DHCP based and NEMO > > > based) as WG items. > > > Ryuji: Both mechanisms are statefull, do we need two statefull > > > mechanisms? Do we need a stateless mechanism? > > > Erik: This draft will be a wg but i can't find the draft in > > > id directory > > > TJ: It was submitted late and it is not in directory > > > TJ: Ralph's draft is expired > > > > >-- >Thierry Ernst, PhD >WIDE, Jun Murai Lab., Keio University, Japan >Nautilus6 Chair: http://www.nautilus6.org >Web: http://www.sfc.wide.ad.jp/~ernst/ >T:+81-44-580-1600 F:+81-44-580-1437 >-- From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 4 11:14:24 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02611 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:14:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7FPv-00027B-GG; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:12:43 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7FPt-000272-C9 for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:12:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02437 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:12:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.uc3m.es ([163.117.136.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7FRT-0006Ks-Q2 for nemo@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:14:20 -0500 Received: from smtp03.uc3m.es (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439DF48BCB; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:12:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from [163.117.139.55] (chelo-it-uc3m-es.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.55]) by smtp03.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF9948BC3; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:12:30 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <1109909443.9350.29.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> References: <200502222106.QAA21649@ietf.org> <72f0a85ad43327f48abfec959488595c@it.uc3m.es> <1109252502.19951.68.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <704f80d0def10daef1a8c4d570c65c1f@it.uc3m.es> <1109644795.9286.17.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <1109909443.9350.29.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Re: [nemo] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-nemo-multihoming-issues-02.txt Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:12:29 +0100 To: Chan-Wah Ng X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo WG X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, I don't know. The term "source-address-dependent" routing is new > to me. To me, if the forwarding agent makes routing decision taking > into consideration the source-address of a packet, it is source > routing. > I think this is not the case... I mean source address dependent routing is when the routing decision takes into account the source address of the packet. Source routing, AFAIK, i when the source of the packet determines the route of the packet. For instance you can do source routing in IP when you include all the intermediate nodes in the packet (you can also do loose source routing when you only includes some of the intermediate nodes) So, one solution for ingress filtering is source address dependent routing. In this case the source (i.e. the host) does not determines the path that the packet will follow. Actual routing is still performed by the routers, which now also take into account the source address. The other option is to let the host to determine the full path, through for instance a routing header. In this case, the routers still look only to the destiantion address, but is it the endpoint the one that determines the path. This is more similar to the case where the hst determines the default router depending on the prefix that is announced. But again, this is merely a terminology issue i guess. >> >>> >>>> Now, this is not as simple as it seems since basically you are >>>> changing >>>> the routing paradigm within the network, which may have unforeseen >>>> consequences (i am not trying to spread fud here, just re-stating >>>> some >>>> concerns that were expressed during the discussions of these topics >>>> in >>>> multi6) >>>> >>>> In addition, R does no need to be a MR, it just need to implement >>>> SAD >>>> routing, no need for the complete MR functionality. >>>> >>>> So, this problem is general to all mutlihomed networks, and the >>>> approaches imho are the same whether the network is mobile or not. >>>> for >>>> general approaches to the ingress filtering problem in multihomed >>>> networks, please refer to draft-huitema-multi6-ingress-filtering-00 >>>> >>> >>> Agreed. How about we rewriting the statement to: >>> >>> A possible approach to solving this is to employ some kind of >>> source >>> address dependent routing in the MNNs (such as requiring MNNs to >>> set their default router to the MR that advertises the MNP the >>> MNNs >>> configured their address from). There are certain issues and >>> considerations associated with such an approach, and the readers >>> are referred to [draft-huitema] for a more detailed analysis. >>> >> >> The only thing that bothers me about the default router part is that >> it >> is not trivial from this to deduce that also mobile routers have to do >> this, which is as you mentioned earlier, required for this to work. >> see >> what i mean? > > Yes, let me try again: > > A possible approach to solving this is to employ some kind of > source > address routing in the MNNs (such as requiring MNNs to > set their default router to the MR that advertises the MNP the MNNs > configured their address from, and requiring LFR to make routing ^^^ I don't think you need both of those. I mean if you manage that all the routers perform SAD routing, then you don't care about what hosts do. I mean if hosts select the wrong default router, the router will react since it is also taking into account the source address. (sorry for not bringing this out earlier) So my point (now) is you only need routers to perform SAD routing. Hosts don't need to support nothing new in this case (which is good imho) > decision based on the source address when forwarding packets within > a NEMO). There are certain issues and considerations associated > with such an approach, and the readers are referred to > [draft-huitema] for a more detailed analysis. > > -- 8< consensus portions snipped >8 -- >> ... >> ok, but i am not sure that multi6 will provide all that nemo needs >> > > We have two (perhaps more) possible options here: > (1) to charter NEMO-WG to solve multihoming issues that are specific to > NEMO, > (2) to wait and see what solution multi6 comes up with. > > I think we can defer debating on this after hearing what you would > present next Wednesday? > ok. I think that multi6 has some very strong assumptions that may not hold true in multiple scenarios that are relevant for nemo. In particular, multi6 assumes that if you change the prefix, then you are changing the exit path. This assumtions is clearly not true for any (*,*,1) scenario, for instance. Regards, marcelo > /rgds > /cwng > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 4 11:38:40 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04178 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:38:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7Fnl-0006Ro-Ov; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:37:21 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7Fnk-0006RF-H7 for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:37:20 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04068 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:37:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7FpH-0006pr-I6 for nemo@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:38:59 -0500 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.86.38]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j24Gb9hl024433; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:37:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.9.61.11] (punchin-nordmark.SFBay.Sun.COM [192.9.61.11]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j24Gb8eU123772; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:37:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <42288E99.20909@sun.com> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 08:36:41 -0800 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041208) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: marcelo bagnulo braun References: <20050223215358.20cab146.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo , Thierry Ernst Subject: [nemo] draft-bagnulo-nemo-multi6-00.txt X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marcelo, Overall the draft is good. But when I read the draft I was a bit confused because I think there are two end-to-ends to consider. One is the CN to MNN, and the last case talks about that; one or both ends might have multiple addresses hence multi6 might be useful. But there is also the HA to MR tunnel ends. If either or both ends have multiple addresses, then multi6 might be useful between those two endpoints, without any impact on the CN and MNN. Perhaps the draft can explore that space a bit more. Erik From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 4 17:42:36 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12769 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:42:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7LTo-0001TK-1o; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:41:08 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7LTl-0001T2-B0 for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:41:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12613 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from node-402449f2.sfo.onnet.us.uu.net ([64.36.73.242] helo=deimos.multihop.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7LVM-0008Fe-E3 for nemo@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:42:47 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B05B620C; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from deimos.multihop.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (deimos.multihop.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 99434-03; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix, from userid 1013) id C04E861D1; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.103.17.191] (unknown [192.103.17.191]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8A760EF; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:37:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20050304202347.501b76ff.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> References: <3f348d63391feec76e17ebe163313973@kniveton.com> <20050304202347.501b76ff.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <05bff3e96455c8a1284788351d63f995@kniveton.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "T.J.Kniveton" Subject: Re: [nemo] Combining / separate Prefix Delegation drafts Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:40:48 -0800 To: IETF NEMO WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at deimos.multihop.net X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is anyone else interested in implementing the prefix delegation from draft-kniveton-nemo-prefix-delegation-00 in the near future? I am in the process of implementing it right now on the HA and would like to test with an MR or two. TJ From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 6 13:00:24 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03785 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D801E-0008UP-7e; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:58:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D801C-0008UG-Kq for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:58:18 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA03599 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.142.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D803D-0000ZQ-Gu for nemo@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:00:24 -0500 Received: from iseran.local (rrcs-67-52-62-114.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.62.114]) by mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359314C641; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:57:59 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:42:29 +0900 From: Thierry Ernst To: nemo Subject: Fw: Re: [nemo] Combining / separate Prefix Delegation drafts Message-Id: <20050306204229.672cd12e.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; powerpc-apple-darwin7.8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Multipart=_Sun__6_Mar_2005_20_42_29_+0900_hyoNrFMEM5dSl/Y/" X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5011df3e2a27abcc044eaa15befcaa87 Cc: romain-w , Ryuji Wakikawa X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Multipart=_Sun__6_Mar_2005_20_42_29_+0900_hyoNrFMEM5dSl/Y/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Which prefix delegation mechanism do you think we should implement (possibly the same) in both SHISA and NEML ? Thierry --Multipart=_Sun__6_Mar_2005_20_42_29_+0900_hyoNrFMEM5dSl/Y/ Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: X-Original-To: ernst@mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp Received: from shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp (shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp [IPv6:2001:200:0:8803::53]) by mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E02C4C638 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:42:56 +0900 (JST) Received: by shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) id D2C105D1A6; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:42:55 +0900 (JST) Delivered-To: ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp Received: from ironport2.sfc.wide.ad.jp (ironport2.sfc.wide.ad.jp [203.178.142.137]) by shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id C05AF5D105; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:42:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org (132.151.6.71) by ironport2.sfc.wide.ad.jp with ESMTP; 05 Mar 2005 07:42:51 +0900 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAA+k= X-IronPort-AV: i="3.90,137,1107702000"; d="scan'208"; a="1662350:sNHT43860168" Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7LTo-0001TK-CO; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:41:08 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7LTl-0001T2-B0 for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:41:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12613 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from node-402449f2.sfo.onnet.us.uu.net ([64.36.73.242] helo=deimos.multihop.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7LVM-0008Fe-E3 for nemo@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:42:47 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B05B620C; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from deimos.multihop.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (deimos.multihop.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 99434-03; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix, from userid 1013) id C04E861D1; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.103.17.191] (unknown [192.103.17.191]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8A760EF; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:37:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20050304202347.501b76ff.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> References: <3f348d63391feec76e17ebe163313973@kniveton.com> <20050304202347.501b76ff.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <05bff3e96455c8a1284788351d63f995@kniveton.com> From: "T.J.Kniveton" Subject: Re: [nemo] Combining / separate Prefix Delegation drafts Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:40:48 -0800 To: IETF NEMO WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at deimos.multihop.net X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is anyone else interested in implementing the prefix delegation from draft-kniveton-nemo-prefix-delegation-00 in the near future? I am in the process of implementing it right now on the HA and would like to test with an MR or two. TJ --Multipart=_Sun__6_Mar_2005_20_42_29_+0900_hyoNrFMEM5dSl/Y/-- From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 6 16:17:16 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26776 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:17:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D836J-00050Z-81; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:15:47 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D836H-0004xj-CZ for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:15:45 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26621 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:15:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from pollux.ietf62.ietf.org ([130.129.16.13]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D838J-000607-1d for nemo@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:17:52 -0500 Received: from [130.129.135.110] (wireless-130-129-135-110.ietf62.ietf.org [130.129.135.110]) by pollux.ietf62.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C27A65 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:15:38 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed To: nemo WG From: marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Fwd: [nemo] draft-bagnulo-nemo-multi6-00.txt Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:15:37 -0600 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this message never made it to the list... Inicio mensaje reenviado: > De: marcelo bagnulo braun > Fecha: 6 de marzo de 2005 06:47:57 GMT-06:00 > Para: Erik Nordmark > Cc: Thierry Ernst , nemo > Asunto: Re: [nemo] draft-bagnulo-nemo-multi6-00.txt > > Hi Erik, > > El 04/03/2005, a las 10:36, Erik Nordmark escribi=F3: > >> Marcelo, >> >> Overall the draft is good. >> > > thanks > >> But when I read the draft I was a bit confused because I think there=20= >> are two end-to-ends to consider. > >> One is the CN to MNN, and the last case talks about that; one or both=20= >> ends might have multiple addresses hence multi6 might be useful. >> > > This is the case that the paper considers indeed > >> But there is also the HA to MR tunnel ends. If either or both ends=20 >> have multiple addresses, then multi6 might be useful between those=20 >> two endpoints, without any impact on the CN and MNN. >> > > i haven't considered this case.... > > But what do you have in mind? > I mean multiple addresses between the HA and the MR are handled=20 > through mip6 right? > So mip6 could be enough for this? > However, we could envision the usage of shim here: > So the question is: > Would it be useful to use shim below mip6? > or the question would be: > use only shim to manage multiple addresses between the MR and HA? > > I guess this second question is out of the scope of nemo, but, just to=20= > clarify things... > > Regards, marcelo > >> Perhaps the draft can explore that space a bit more. >> >> Erik >> > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 6 17:08:46 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01658 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D83sc-00023s-B1; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:05:42 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D83sa-00023h-5w for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:05:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01248 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:05:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D83uc-0007HQ-Vk for nemo@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:07:48 -0500 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.87.130]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j26M5ahl017512; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:05:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.9.61.11] (punchin-nordmark.SFBay.Sun.COM [192.9.61.11]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j26M5av4601380; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:05:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <422B7E97.6000500@sun.com> Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:05:11 -0800 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041208) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Re: Fwd: [nemo] draft-bagnulo-nemo-multi6-00.txt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo WG X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit marcelo bagnulo braun wrote: > I mean multiple addresses between the HA and the MR are handled > through mip6 right? > So mip6 could be enough for this? People have been discussing MIP6 BU extensions that could carry multiple CoAs, but that is only one piece of the puzzle. One would also need a mechanism to test which address pairs are working, and the multi6 protocol might be reusable here. Also, nobody has discussed whether there is a need for a MR to find out multiple addresses of the HA; if there is, there can also be some reuse. Erik From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 6 21:55:29 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA27169 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:55:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D88Nm-0005Gs-HT; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:54:10 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D88Nk-0005Gk-Qp for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:54:09 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA27078 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:54:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from lpr.ietf62.ietf.org ([130.129.16.12] helo=castor.ietf62.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D88Pp-0005U0-Dm for nemo@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:56:18 -0500 Received: from [130.129.135.110] (unknown [130.129.135.110]) by castor.ietf62.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4E92084; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 07:53:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <42288E99.20909@sun.com> References: <20050223215358.20cab146.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <42288E99.20909@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Re: [nemo] draft-bagnulo-nemo-multi6-00.txt Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 06:47:57 -0600 To: Erik Nordmark X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: nemo , Thierry Ernst X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Erik, El 04/03/2005, a las 10:36, Erik Nordmark escribi=F3: > Marcelo, > > Overall the draft is good. > thanks > But when I read the draft I was a bit confused because I think there=20= > are two end-to-ends to consider. > One is the CN to MNN, and the last case talks about that; one or both=20= > ends might have multiple addresses hence multi6 might be useful. > This is the case that the paper considers indeed > But there is also the HA to MR tunnel ends. If either or both ends=20 > have multiple addresses, then multi6 might be useful between those two=20= > endpoints, without any impact on the CN and MNN. > i haven't considered this case.... But what do you have in mind? I mean multiple addresses between the HA and the MR are handled through=20= mip6 right? So mip6 could be enough for this? However, we could envision the usage of shim here: So the question is: Would it be useful to use shim below mip6? or the question would be: use only shim to manage multiple addresses between the MR and HA? I guess this second question is out of the scope of nemo, but, just to=20= clarify things... Regards, marcelo > Perhaps the draft can explore that space a bit more. > > Erik > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 7 11:53:27 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07435 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:53:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8LQA-0001eD-2w; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:49:30 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8LQ8-0001e7-Le for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:49:28 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06960 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:49:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.142.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8LSK-0008Nr-9h for nemo@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:51:46 -0500 Received: from iseran.local (wireless-130-129-132-183.ietf62.ietf.org [130.129.132.183]) by mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20584C5AA for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:49:03 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:36:06 +0900 From: Thierry Ernst To: nemo@ietf.org Subject: Re: [nemo] draft-bagnulo-nemo-multi6-00.txt Message-Id: <20050308013606.36ebd8b0.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: <228D823E-3B16-11D9-84BB-000D93ACD0FE@it.uc3m.es> References: <228D823E-3B16-11D9-84BB-000D93ACD0FE@it.uc3m.es> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; powerpc-apple-darwin7.8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Marcelo, First, thanks for this draft. It's really appreciated that some people try to bridge the solutions developped by Multi6 with the problems faced by multihomed NEMO. I'm sure your presentation on Wednesday will be insightful for us. For the purpose of informing the NEMO ML members, would you be a bit more precise about what you referred to as the "multi6 solution" (like reference to one or a couple of work in progress drafts) ? Also, I have 2 questions regarding section 3.3 (*,n,n) case, which are not linked to multi6. First, would you clarify what you mean by distinct home networks ? For instance, in the case discussed by the aircraft manufacturers, would the HAs located in New York and Paris be considered in the same home network if they are served by the same ISP ? Wouldn't be better to differentiate the case according to which ISP belongs the HA rather than to which home network ? Second, do you consider a HA-HA protcol useful only in the case where the 2 HAs are in the same home network ? Thierry On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:03:43 +0100 marcelo bagnulo braun wrote: > Hi all, > > I have just submitted a draft containing a preliminary analysis of the > application of multi6 to nemo multihoming. > The idea is to identify the configurations where multi6 can be provide > the multihoming support required by nemo. > > You can find it at: > > http://www.it.uc3m.es/marcelo/draft-bagnulo-nemo-multi6-00.txt > > Comments are appreciated > > regards, marcelo > > > ------------------------------------------ > Please note that my former email address > mbagnulo@ing.uc3m.es is no longer in use > Please send mail to: > marcelo at it dot uc3m dot es > ------------------------------------------ > -- Thierry Ernst, PhD WIDE, Jun Murai Lab., Keio University, Japan Nautilus6 Chair: http://www.nautilus6.org Web: http://www.sfc.wide.ad.jp/~ernst/ T:+81-44-580-1600 F:+81-44-580-1437 -- From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 7 12:13:17 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10033 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8Lbl-0003UG-HK; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:01:29 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8Lbk-0003U0-OS for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:01:28 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA08489 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:01:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from pollux.ietf62.ietf.org ([130.129.16.13]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8Ldx-0000IZ-Ly for nemo@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:03:46 -0500 Received: from [130.129.135.110] (wireless-130-129-135-110.ietf62.ietf.org [130.129.135.110]) by pollux.ietf62.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13E638; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:01:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20050308013606.36ebd8b0.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> References: <228D823E-3B16-11D9-84BB-000D93ACD0FE@it.uc3m.es> <20050308013606.36ebd8b0.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <216b5968925b25082ee44217fef3eb41@it.uc3m.es> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Re: [nemo] draft-bagnulo-nemo-multi6-00.txt Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:01:25 -0600 To: Thierry Ernst X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Thierry, El 07/03/2005, a las 10:36, Thierry Ernst escribi=F3: > > Hi Marcelo, > > First, thanks for this draft. It's really appreciated that some people > try to bridge the solutions developped by Multi6 with the problems=20 > faced > by multihomed NEMO. I'm sure your presentation on Wednesday will be > insightful for us. > thanks, > For the purpose of informing the NEMO ML members, would you be a bit > more precise about what you referred to as the "multi6 solution" (like > reference to one or a couple of work in progress drafts) ? > for a quick insight, i would recommend http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-multi6-l3shim-00.txt > Also, I have 2 questions regarding section 3.3 (*,n,n) case, which are > not linked to multi6. > > First, would you clarify what you mean by distinct home networks ? For > instance, in the case discussed by the aircraft manufacturers, would=20= > the > HAs located in New York and Paris be considered in the same home=20 > network > if they are served by the same ISP ? > no > Wouldn't be better to differentiate the case according to which ISP > belongs the HA rather than to which home network ? > yes, this would be better, thanks, so coming back to your question above, by different Home networks i mean the case where there are multiple=20 home networks and each one of them obtains a differen prefix from their=20= upstream ISP. > Second, do you consider a HA-HA protcol useful only in the case where > the 2 HAs are in the same home network ? > I think so, but i haven't read last versions of the draft regards, marcelo > Thierry > > > > > On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:03:43 +0100 marcelo bagnulo > braun wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I have just submitted a draft containing a preliminary analysis of = the >> application of multi6 to nemo multihoming. >> The idea is to identify the configurations where multi6 can be = provide >> the multihoming support required by nemo. >> >> You can find it at: >> >> http://www.it.uc3m.es/marcelo/draft-bagnulo-nemo-multi6-00.txt >> >> Comments are appreciated >> >> regards, marcelo >> >> >> ------------------------------------------ >> Please note that my former email address >> mbagnulo@ing.uc3m.es is no longer in use >> Please send mail to: >> marcelo at it dot uc3m dot es >> ------------------------------------------ >> > > > --=20 > Thierry Ernst, PhD > WIDE, Jun Murai Lab., Keio University, Japan > Nautilus6 Chair: http://www.nautilus6.org > Web: http://www.sfc.wide.ad.jp/~ernst/ > T:+81-44-580-1600 F:+81-44-580-1437 > -- > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 7 12:55:01 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14520 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8MPe-0002YC-3x; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:53:02 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8MPc-0002Y4-4r for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:53:00 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14145 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8MRp-0001gj-Bs for nemo@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:55:18 -0500 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (144.254.224.150) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Mar 2005 19:13:16 +0100 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Received: from xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-332.cisco.com [144.254.231.87]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j27HqRmC007699; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:52:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from xmb-ams-337.cisco.com ([144.254.231.82]) by xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:52:42 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [nemo] Combining / separate Prefix Delegation drafts Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:52:37 +0100 Message-ID: <7892795E1A87F04CADFCCF41FADD00FC9954B8@xmb-ams-337.emea.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [nemo] Combining / separate Prefix Delegation drafts Thread-Index: AcUhC0xLvpXvKXrcTCqNx6nnvPN/6wCMu1kQ From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" To: "T.J.Kniveton" , "IETF NEMO WG" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Mar 2005 17:52:42.0768 (UTC) FILETIME=[762F4100:01C5233E] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "Sri Gundavelli \(sgundave\)" X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi TJ: I started discussions with our development on this. If you have a chance to meet him this week, Sri Gundavelli is the main guy now, with Alpesh Patel on the HA side.=20 Take care :) Pascal | -----Original Message----- | From: T.J.Kniveton [mailto:tj@kniveton.com] | Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 11:41 PM | To: IETF NEMO WG | Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) | Subject: Re: [nemo] Combining / separate Prefix Delegation drafts |=20 | Is anyone else interested in implementing the prefix delegation from | draft-kniveton-nemo-prefix-delegation-00 in the near future? I am in | the process of implementing it right now on the HA and would like to | test with an MR or two. |=20 | TJ From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 7 16:28:38 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05838 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8PhZ-0008Oz-Ac; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:23:45 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8PhY-0008Ou-0f for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:23:44 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05393 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from style.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.143.88]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8Pjn-00074m-RJ for nemo@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:26:04 -0500 Received: from localhost (style.sfc.wide.ad.jp [IPv6:2001:200:0:8801:202:b3ff:fe87:cb44]) by style.sfc.wide.ad.jp (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j27LMLeH090618; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:22:21 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 06:22:21 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20050308.062221.71173690.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> To: cwng@psl.com.sg Subject: Re: [nemo] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04.txt] From: Masafumi Watari In-Reply-To: <1109903908.9350.11.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> References: <1109212478.19951.18.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050304.080954.41679403.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1109903908.9350.11.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2rc3 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chan-Wah, On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:38:27 +0800, Chan-Wah Ng wrote: > Hello Watari-san, > > On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 08:09 +0900, Masafumi Watari wrote: > > Hi Chan-Wah, > > > > Thanks for the submittion of the updated draft. > > > > > Oh, and yes, as always comments/criticisms on the RO-taxonomy draft is > > > always welcomed, regardless of harsh, gentle, or otherwise :). > > > > At the moment, I just have one comment on Section 5.1 where you > > describe the effects of additional signaling overhead. The effect > > mentioned in the section is focused on the number of signaling > > messages to construct the optimal path, but I think its also important > > to mention what the effect of these messages causes on handoffs in > > terms of delay. Since some solutions require collaboration of the MRs > > to construct the optimal path, the change of attachment point of > > root-MR (or other MR as well) requires a reconstruction of the path > > for RO. In general, more signaling messages means more time before > > the communication resumes, so we would want to keep this at its > > minimum. > > > > So I think that there could be section where we analyze the effects of > > handoff in relations with delay, number of signaling messages, and > > nest level. Maybe somewhere in Section 5 since it's a tradeoff of > > having RO. > > > > What do you think? > > I think you've made a valid observation, and an excellent suggestion. > The description regarding BU-storm is an (feeble) attempt on my part to > quantitatively analyze the effect of the so-called BU-Storm, but > obviously I have not take into consideration all the relevant factors. Just to be clear, the problem is not limited to the so-called BU-storm, assuming that the term "storm" refers to a case where there are many MNNs. Assume a scenario where only a single MNN needs the RO. If one solution requires N number of messages to construct the optimal path for this MNN while another solution requires 2*N messages, the latter would more then likely require more time for the reconstruction of the path after a handoff. Thus this N would become the minimum time required for each MNN and therefore would want to keep it at its minimum. > Someone (I think its Alexandru) mentioned something about a paper that > quantify the effect of BU-Storm and found it to be not very significant. > I have yet to locate that piece of academic work. Should anyone have > any pointer to it, I would be very grateful if this anyone could share > it with the WG. I don't have a pointer either, but I do remember the discussion that such BUs are not significant compared to packets sent by MNNs using UDP stream applications which you have also listed in that section :) watari From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 7 16:36:07 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA06576 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:36:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8Prg-0000t1-Kg; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:34:12 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8Prf-0000sw-Ei for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:34:11 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA06371 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from style.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.143.88]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8Ptu-0007IJ-E6 for nemo@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:36:32 -0500 Received: from localhost (style.sfc.wide.ad.jp [IPv6:2001:200:0:8801:202:b3ff:fe87:cb44]) by style.sfc.wide.ad.jp (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j27LWw5o090693; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:32:58 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 06:32:58 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20050308.063258.104116121.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> To: fanzhao@ucdavis.edu Subject: Re: [nemo] draft-zhao-nemo-ro-ps-01 From: Masafumi Watari In-Reply-To: <200502220025.j1M0Ph7q000859@citheronia.ucdavis.edu> References: <200502220025.j1M0Ph7q000859@citheronia.ucdavis.edu> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2rc3 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Fan, Just a question, but are the terminoloy listed in the draft necessary to explain the problems? I think that we should avoid the use of new terms to keep the document simple and easy to understand. Especially for the terms Inbound and Outbound you've defined them for directions to and from the "Internet infrastructure," but that may not always be the case when you have RO. Therefore its use is limited only under specific scenarios. OTOH, I prefer to have a term to refer Correspondent MNNs. Currently, they are all refered to as CNs as defined in draft-ietf-nemo-terminology-03, but the problem greatly differs depending on their attachment point. I used nested CNs but does not sound right either. Any thoughts? Also Section 4.2 ends without a period. Does this sentence continue on? watari On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:25:43 -0800 (PST), "Fan Zhao" wrote: > > Dear all, > > We have submitted draft-zhao-nemo-ro-ps-01. > It can be found in the following URL: > http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~zhaofa/NEMORO/ > if it has not shown up in the Internet-Drafts directories. > > Abstract > > This document describes the routing optimization problem in NEMO and > analyzes the related approaches to solve this problem. > > Your comments are welcome. Thanks. > > Sincerely, > fan > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 7 18:40:23 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21529 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8Rc6-0004MN-R0; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:26:14 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8Rc5-0004MG-5H for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:26:13 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17483 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:26:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from wireless-130-129-135-214.ietf62.ietf.org ([130.129.135.214] helo=mozart.psl.com.sg) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8ReK-0001NB-2y for nemo@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:28:33 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mozart.psl.com.sg (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4024B9BA89; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:38:22 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: [nemo] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04.txt] From: Chan-Wah NG To: Masafumi Watari In-Reply-To: <20050308.062221.71173690.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> References: <1109212478.19951.18.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050304.080954.41679403.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1109903908.9350.11.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050308.062221.71173690.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Panasonic Singapore Labs Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:38:21 +0800 Message-Id: <1110238701.11209.3.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 06:22 +0900, Masafumi Watari wrote: > Hello Chan-Wah, > > On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:38:27 +0800, > Chan-Wah Ng wrote: > > > Hello Watari-san, > > > > On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 08:09 +0900, Masafumi Watari wrote: > > > Hi Chan-Wah, > > > > > > Thanks for the submittion of the updated draft. > > > > > > > Oh, and yes, as always comments/criticisms on the RO-taxonomy draft is > > > > always welcomed, regardless of harsh, gentle, or otherwise :). > > > > > > At the moment, I just have one comment on Section 5.1 where you > > > describe the effects of additional signaling overhead. The effect > > > mentioned in the section is focused on the number of signaling > > > messages to construct the optimal path, but I think its also important > > > to mention what the effect of these messages causes on handoffs in > > > terms of delay. Since some solutions require collaboration of the MRs > > > to construct the optimal path, the change of attachment point of > > > root-MR (or other MR as well) requires a reconstruction of the path > > > for RO. In general, more signaling messages means more time before > > > the communication resumes, so we would want to keep this at its > > > minimum. > > > > > > So I think that there could be section where we analyze the effects of > > > handoff in relations with delay, number of signaling messages, and > > > nest level. Maybe somewhere in Section 5 since it's a tradeoff of > > > having RO. > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > I think you've made a valid observation, and an excellent suggestion. > > The description regarding BU-storm is an (feeble) attempt on my part to > > quantitatively analyze the effect of the so-called BU-Storm, but > > obviously I have not take into consideration all the relevant factors. > > Just to be clear, the problem is not limited to the so-called > BU-storm, assuming that the term "storm" refers to a case where there > are many MNNs. Assume a scenario where only a single MNN needs the > RO. If one solution requires N number of messages to construct the > optimal path for this MNN while another solution requires 2*N > messages, the latter would more then likely require more time for the > reconstruction of the path after a handoff. Thus this N would become > the minimum time required for each MNN and therefore would want to > keep it at its minimum. > Of-course, ... given all things constant. However, the question is that how significant is the delay, and whether we are willing to sacrifice something else (perhaps algorithm complexity) to get rid of the extra overhead. > > Someone (I think its Alexandru) mentioned something about a paper that > > quantify the effect of BU-Storm and found it to be not very significant. > > I have yet to locate that piece of academic work. Should anyone have > > any pointer to it, I would be very grateful if this anyone could share > > it with the WG. > > I don't have a pointer either, but I do remember the discussion that > such BUs are not significant compared to packets sent by MNNs using > UDP stream applications which you have also listed in that section :) > Right, I think the discussion you mentioned is between Alex and myself, leading to the text I included in the draft :) /rgds /cwng From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 7 19:38:03 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29756 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 19:38:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8Si0-0006Kj-Dk; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:36:24 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8Shz-0006KM-1K for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:36:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29584 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 19:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from havana.ucdavis.edu ([169.237.104.156]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8SkE-0004kG-2q for nemo@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:38:44 -0500 Received: from tremex.ucdavis.edu (tremex.ucdavis.edu [169.237.104.172]) by havana.ucdavis.edu (8.12.10/8.12.9/it-defang-5.2.0) with ESMTP id j280aBZF016903; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from tremex.ucdavis.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tremex.ucdavis.edu (8.12.10/8.12.9/UCD5.2.0) with ESMTP id j280aBIm019235; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from www@localhost) by tremex.ucdavis.edu (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j280aANE019232; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:36:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:36:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200503080036.j280aANE019232@tremex.ucdavis.edu> To: Masafumi Watari Subject: Re: [nemo] draft-zhao-nemo-ro-ps-01 From: "Fan Zhao" X-Errors-To: fanzhao@blue.ucdavis.edu X-Mailer: Geckomail-b16 X-Originating-IP: [64.122.210.21] X-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.49 on 169.237.104.195 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Hello Masafumi, Thanks for your review. > Just a question, but are the terminoloy listed in the draft necessary > to explain the problems? I think that we should avoid the use of new > terms to keep the document simple and easy to understand. Especially > for the terms Inbound and Outbound you've defined them for directions > to and from the "Internet infrastructure," but that may not always be > the case when you have RO. Therefore its use is limited only under > specific scenarios. > The terms, like CA and AP, are introduced to help the problem describtion and analysis of approaches. I agree we do not have to introduce the new ones if the original terms are sufficient enough to describe the problem. Actaully the term of AP is also related with the way to categorize the space of approaches. Following this line of thinking, I list HAHA protocol in parellel with doing RO with CN/CR in draft-zhao-nemo-ro-ps-01 while in draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04, HAHA protocol is under the category of Infrastructure Optimization, which I think is also a good method. I just want to explain my original thoughts a little bit. I agree we should remove Inbound and Outbound. > OTOH, I prefer to have a term to refer Correspondent MNNs. Currently, > they are all refered to as CNs as defined in > draft-ietf-nemo-terminology-03, but the problem greatly differs > depending on their attachment point. I used nested CNs but does not > sound right either. Any thoughts? > This is a good suggestion. We should give different terms to these two kinds of CN. > Also Section 4.2 ends without a period. Does this sentence continue > on? > yes, a period is missing. Thanks for your comments. fan > watari > > On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:25:43 -0800 (PST), > "Fan Zhao" wrote: > > > > > Dear all, > > > > We have submitted draft-zhao-nemo-ro-ps-01. > > It can be found in the following URL: > > http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~zhaofa/NEMORO/ > > if it has not shown up in the Internet-Drafts directories. > > > > Abstract > > > > This document describes the routing optimization problem in NEMO and > > analyzes the related approaches to solve this problem. > > > > Your comments are welcome. Thanks. > > > > Sincerely, > > fan > > > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 00:32:05 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA23755 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8XHH-0003Az-D4; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 00:29:07 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8XHF-0003An-F9 for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 00:29:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA23314 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:29:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.142.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8XJY-0002j6-JE for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 00:31:29 -0500 Received: from iseran.local (rrcs-67-52-62-114.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.62.114]) by mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914C74C166 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:28:42 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:33:00 +0900 From: Thierry Ernst To: nemo@ietf.org Subject: Re: [nemo] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04.txt] Message-Id: <20050308143300.43a5e118.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: <1110238701.11209.3.camel@localhost> References: <1109212478.19951.18.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050304.080954.41679403.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1109903908.9350.11.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050308.062221.71173690.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1110238701.11209.3.camel@localhost> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; powerpc-apple-darwin7.8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, > > Just to be clear, the problem is not limited to the so-called > > BU-storm, assuming that the term "storm" refers to a case where > > there are many MNNs. Assume a scenario where only a single MNN > > needs the RO. If one solution requires N number of messages to > > construct the optimal path for this MNN while another solution > > requires 2*N messages, the latter would more then likely require > > more time for the reconstruction of the path after a handoff. Thus > > this N would become the minimum time required for each MNN and > > therefore would want to keep it at its minimum. Just one small note: there could be many CNs and only a few MNNs but still a BU storm: imagine that someone set up a web server in a bus. OK, that sounds stupid, I know, but it's just to get the picture. The fact that it is reasonable or not to do it is orthogonal to the fact it may happen. > Of-course, ... given all things constant. However, the question is > that how significant is the delay, and whether we are willing to > sacrifice something else (perhaps algorithm complexity) to get rid of > the extra overhead. > > > > Someone (I think its Alexandru) mentioned something about a paper > > > that quantify the effect of BU-Storm and found it to be not very > > > significant. I have yet to locate that piece of academic work. > > > Should anyone have any pointer to it, I would be very grateful if > > > this anyone could share it with the WG. > > > > I don't have a pointer either, but I do remember the discussion that > > such BUs are not significant compared to packets sent by MNNs using > > UDP stream applications which you have also listed in that section > > :) > > > > Right, I think the discussion you mentioned is between Alex and > myself, leading to the text I included in the draft :) I beg to differ. There are 2 reasons why RO is desirable: 1. you have a high quantity of traffic and transmitting all these packets via the home agent would consume to many network resources if the CN is relatively closer to the MNN on the direct path. 2. you have a small quantity of traffic, but it is very sensitive to delay, so you need the shortest path if the CN is relatively closer to the MNN on the direct path. With this in mind, and with a high number of CNs, the quantity of signaling traffic may be very significant to the quantity of data traffic. One example: an IPv6 sensor in a vehicle queried via SMTP every X seconds. For some reasons, the number of CNs happens to be high. Although the data traffic is not significant, the signaling traffic may well be high. One last detail: in the new document, I've read in several places that BU are sent to CNs whenever the MR changes its location. May I suggest to reword that as BU should be sent not only when the MR changes its location, but also regularly to refresh the cash ? To what I remember, this keepalive frequency is quite frequent. Thierry From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 01:11:40 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA26515 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:11:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8XvF-000756-Oa; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 01:10:25 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8XvD-00074u-VA for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 01:10:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA26427 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:10:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.142.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8XxY-0003bz-4K for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 01:12:48 -0500 Received: from iseran.local (rrcs-67-52-62-114.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.62.114]) by mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58744C93E for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:10:12 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:14:25 +0900 From: Thierry Ernst To: nemo@ietf.org Message-Id: <20050308151425.2525d93d.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; powerpc-apple-darwin7.8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d9238570526f12788af3d33c67f37625 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [nemo] More comments on draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04 X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear draft authors, Here are a couple more comments on the draft. I think it has reached a very good quality. I wonder if it would be possible (or reasonable) to have some considerations for multihomed configurations (of course, that may be too complex to deal with this in this draft). 1. Introduction With current Network Mobility (NEMO) Basic Support [1], all communications to and from nodes in a mobile network must go through the bi-directional tunnel established between the Mobile Router (MR) and its Home Agent (HA) when the mobile network is away. Although such an arrangement allows Mobile Network Nodes (MNNs) to reach and be reached by any node on the Internet, there are associated limitations which might be unacceptable for certain applications. In particular, voice over IP has strict requirements on packet jotter jitter To such end, this document first describes the problem of Route Optimization in NEMO in Section 2. Next, Section 3 discusses the benefits route optimization might bring to NEMO. Follwing this, following 2. Problem Statement of NEMO Route Optimization Readers might be interested to note the availability of [6] which also discusses the problem statement of NEMO Route Optimization. There were 2 other drafts, [7] and draft-clausen. 2.1 Sub-Optimality with NEMO Basic Support With NEMO Basic Support, all packets sent between a Mobile Network Node and its Correspondent Node are forwarded through the MR-HA tunnel. This results in a sub-optimal routing, also known as "dog-leg routing", with NEMO Basic Support. This sub-optimality has the following undesirable effects: May be it is useful to recall what "dog-leg routing" is (or isn't it better to use another term, like pin-ball routing or to simply remove this sentence since the description of the issue is written in "longer route" ? o Increased chances of packet fragmentation The increased in packet size due to packet encapsulation may "The increased packet size" or "The increase in the packet size ..." 2.3 MIPv6 Host in Mobile Networks When a MIPv6 mobile node joins a mobile network, it becomes a Visiting Mobile Node (VMN) of the mobile network. Packets sent to and from the Visiting Mobile Node will have to be routed not only to the Home Agent of the Visiting Mobile Node, but also to the Home Agent of the Mobile Router in the mobile network. This suffers the same amplification effect of nested Mobile Router mentioned in Section 2.2. Well, if this is a VMN and if packet must be routed to the home agent of the VMN, it means it operates MIP6. So, why would the packet be sent to the VMN's HA ? I think the paragraph below and the one that follows could be grouped. 3. Benefits of NEMO Route Optimization Actually, isn't it straight forward form the list of issues in the precedent section ? I mean, for instance, if the issue is "larger delay", solving the necessarily means "shorter delay". So, 2 and 3 may be indeed redundant. 4.1 MR-to-CN Optimization o Binding Update with Network Prefix This approach is particularly useful when a lot of MNNs in a mobile network is communicating with a few corresponding nodes. In such cases, a single Binding Update can optimize the routes of many flows between the Correspondent Node and the MNNs. can => would 4.3 Nested Tunnels Optimization o Mobile Home This model applies to a category of problems where the mobile networks share a same administration and consistently move together (e.g. a fleet at sea). In this model, there is a cascade of Home Agents. The main Home Agent is fixed in the infrastructure, and advertises an aggregated view of all the mobile networks. This aggregation is actually divided over a number of mobile routers, the root-MRs. The root-MRs subdivide some of their address space to the other Mobile Routers forming their fleet, for which they are Home Agent. As Home Agents, the I don't understand how the root-MR becomes a HA. o MANET Routing top-level Mobile Router: I would use root-MR, to keep consistency with other sections (also, we have agreed to deprecate this term). ub-sections to be incurred. 5.2 Increased Protocol Complexity Some nodes will be required to have additional functionalities in order to incorporate NEMO Extended Support. This increases the node complexity. It may not be feasible to implement new functionalities on legacy nodes. If such nodes are mobile, this may prove to be a significant cost due to the limited memory resources such devices usually have. such nodes: is this the "legacy nodes" in the sentence before, or is this related to "Some nodes" at the beginning of the paragraph ? 5.5 Other Considerations o Compatibility with NEMO Basic Support It will be beneficial to vendors if a route optimized solution for NEMO is compatible with NEMO Basic Support. This reduces the complexity and achieves greater reuse of existing functionalities. I think it MUST be compatible with NEMO BS, if we assume NEMO BS as the backup mechanisms to provide for session continuity. 6. Analysis of Solution Space o Binding Update Storm If the Mobile Network Nodes in a mobile network are communicating with a lot of Correspondent Nodes, whenever the Mobile Router changes its point of attachment, it needs to send out a large number of binding updates to Correspondent Nodes. This is further worsen by the fact that the Mobile Router has to perform the return routability procedure prior to sending binding updates. See my earlier mail: there are are also the periodic BUs that must be sent to refresh binding caches. 6.3 Nested Tunnels Optimization o Binding Update Storm Depending on the specifics of a solution for nested tunnels optimization, the upstream information may be the care-of address of the upstream Mobile Router. This will leads to the a burst of Binding Update messages whenever an upstream Mobile Router changes its point of attachment, since all its sub-MRs must send binding updates to their Home Agents to update the new upstream information. How does it compare with solutions x.1, x.2 where BUs are sent to CNs (I think in the present case BUs are not sent to CNs) ? Wouldn't it be better to speak about "Signaling Overhead" ? 6.4 MIPv6-over-NEMO Optimization o Mobility Awareness The Visiting Mobile Node will need to acquire the upstream information, most likely including the mobility and location information of the upstream Mobile Routers. Is this an issues for a VMN ? Isn't it always the case for a MIP6 node and couldn't it be considered as "normal" ? o Processing Burden This approach also increases the processing burden of the Mobile Router, as it needs to maintain information necessary for Route Optimization to work for every Correspondent Node that is communicating with each visiting mobile node. This may not scale very well when one consider, for example, a train network, where there are hundreds of Visiting Mobile Nodes in one mobile network. What about BU storm (or signaling overhead, if you prefer) ? 9. References [7] Ernst, T., "Route Optimization with Nested Correspondent Nodes", Internet-Draft draft-watari-nemo-nested-cn-00, October 2004. Watari is the first author. I don't know how the IETF secretariat comes to mix this up in the draft announcement. Thierry From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 07:46:43 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18228 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8e4H-0005me-6o; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:44:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8e4F-0005mZ-JO for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:44:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18016 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:44:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate5.mot.com ([144.189.100.105]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8e6d-0003B1-MJ for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:46:36 -0500 Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate5.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate5) with ESMTP id j28ClWJ9022420; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 05:47:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com (zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com [10.161.201.8]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j28CjKYA025610; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:45:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from [10.161.201.117] (zfr01-2117.crm.mot.com [10.161.201.117]) by zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B65855023; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:43:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <422D9DFE.5030101@motorola.com> Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:43:42 +0100 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chan-Wah NG Subject: Re: [nemo] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04.txt] References: <1109212478.19951.18.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050304.080954.41679403.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1109903908.9350.11.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050308.062221.71173690.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1110238701.11209.3.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1110238701.11209.3.camel@localhost> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig93CF144DB7A8F79259B24F6B" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6d95a152022472c7d6cdf886a0424dc6 Cc: nemo@ietf.org, Masafumi Watari X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig93CF144DB7A8F79259B24F6B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chan-Wah NG wrote: > Hello, > > On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 06:22 +0900, Masafumi Watari wrote: > >>Hello Chan-Wah, >> >>On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:38:27 +0800, >>Chan-Wah Ng wrote: >> >> >>>Hello Watari-san, >>> >>>On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 08:09 +0900, Masafumi Watari wrote: >>> >>>>Hi Chan-Wah, >>>> >>>>Thanks for the submittion of the updated draft. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Oh, and yes, as always comments/criticisms on the RO-taxonomy draft is >>>>>always welcomed, regardless of harsh, gentle, or otherwise :). >>>> >>>>At the moment, I just have one comment on Section 5.1 where you >>>>describe the effects of additional signaling overhead. The effect >>>>mentioned in the section is focused on the number of signaling >>>>messages to construct the optimal path, but I think its also important >>>>to mention what the effect of these messages causes on handoffs in >>>>terms of delay. Since some solutions require collaboration of the MRs >>>>to construct the optimal path, the change of attachment point of >>>>root-MR (or other MR as well) requires a reconstruction of the path >>>>for RO. In general, more signaling messages means more time before >>>>the communication resumes, so we would want to keep this at its >>>>minimum. >>>> >>>>So I think that there could be section where we analyze the effects of >>>>handoff in relations with delay, number of signaling messages, and >>>>nest level. Maybe somewhere in Section 5 since it's a tradeoff of >>>>having RO. >>>> >>>>What do you think? >>> >>>I think you've made a valid observation, and an excellent suggestion. >>>The description regarding BU-storm is an (feeble) attempt on my part to >>>quantitatively analyze the effect of the so-called BU-Storm, but >>>obviously I have not take into consideration all the relevant factors. >> >>Just to be clear, the problem is not limited to the so-called >>BU-storm, assuming that the term "storm" refers to a case where there >>are many MNNs. Assume a scenario where only a single MNN needs the >>RO. If one solution requires N number of messages to construct the >>optimal path for this MNN while another solution requires 2*N >>messages, the latter would more then likely require more time for the >>reconstruction of the path after a handoff. Thus this N would become >>the minimum time required for each MNN and therefore would want to >>keep it at its minimum. >> > > Of-course, ... given all things constant. However, the question is that > how significant is the delay, and whether we are willing to sacrifice > something else (perhaps algorithm complexity) to get rid of the extra > overhead. > > >>>Someone (I think its Alexandru) mentioned something about a paper that >>>quantify the effect of BU-Storm and found it to be not very significant. >>>I have yet to locate that piece of academic work. Should anyone have >>>any pointer to it, I would be very grateful if this anyone could share >>>it with the WG. >> >>I don't have a pointer either, but I do remember the discussion that >>such BUs are not significant compared to packets sent by MNNs using >>UDP stream applications which you have also listed in that section :) >> > > Right, I think the discussion you mentioned is between Alex and myself, > leading to the text I included in the draft :) Sidenote: the paper I was mentioning about BU storms stormy or windy was co-authored by Markus Pilz et alia, at that time with University of Bonn. I can't find the paper right now, sorry. The simulations were done with ns. It may be worth exploring in which conditions would a real BU storm appear. Alex --------------enig93CF144DB7A8F79259B24F6B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCLZ4FMmC0w56zj54RApqKAKC0wk7HRhqAPzkX7n1COxYanxluJQCbBfrf +L6CjUaiLPmrX6oRvRidTVI= =wVcg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig93CF144DB7A8F79259B24F6B-- From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 08:14:52 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21443 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8eVl-0008OI-Re; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:12:33 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8eVi-0008Nd-QY for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:12:32 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21267 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate7.mot.com ([129.188.136.7]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8eY6-00043J-Cb for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:14:59 -0500 Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by motgate7.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate7) with ESMTP id j28D2FLO025956; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:02:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com (zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com [10.161.201.8]) by az33exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j28DCnA6023430; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:12:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from [10.161.201.117] (zfr01-2117.crm.mot.com [10.161.201.117]) by zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F32B855023; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:12:19 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <422DA4AC.9000903@motorola.com> Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:12:12 +0100 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thierry Ernst Subject: Re: [nemo] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04.txt] References: <1109212478.19951.18.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050304.080954.41679403.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1109903908.9350.11.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050308.062221.71173690.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1110238701.11209.3.camel@localhost> <20050308143300.43a5e118.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: <20050308143300.43a5e118.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms000802060702040005070303" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000802060702040005070303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thierry Ernst wrote: > Just one small note: there could be many CNs and only a few MNNs but > still a BU storm: imagine that someone set up a web server in a bus. Ok, but just as a sidenote, and I don't try to interfere with the discussion: isn't it that before BU is sent to CN, there should be a CoT sent to it, at which point we may need to actually talk about a "CoT storm"? Something like "CoT storm" precedes any "BU storm" to CN? > With this in mind, and with a high number of CNs, the quantity of > signaling traffic may be very significant to the quantity of data > traffic. > > One example: an IPv6 sensor in a vehicle queried via SMTP every X > seconds. For some reasons, the number of CNs happens to be high. > Although the data traffic is not significant, the signaling traffic > may well be high. Well, in this particular scenario, unless one could give a rough comparison of packet sizes SNMP-BU, I would imagine that the potential BU storm is preceded by an equally-sized SNMP storm. 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ESMTP id LAA11535 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:05:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8hB5-0008LX-J6; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:03:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8hB3-0008LN-45 for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:03:21 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11310 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:03:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.142.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8hDS-0008G8-8s for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:05:51 -0500 Received: from iseran.local (wireless-130-129-134-94.ietf62.ietf.org [130.129.134.94]) by mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B90B4C68D for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:02:55 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:41:01 +0900 From: Thierry Ernst To: nemo@ietf.org Subject: Re: [nemo] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04.txt] Message-Id: <20050309004101.653ad954.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: <422DA4AC.9000903@motorola.com> References: <1109212478.19951.18.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050304.080954.41679403.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1109903908.9350.11.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050308.062221.71173690.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1110238701.11209.3.camel@localhost> <20050308143300.43a5e118.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <422DA4AC.9000903@motorola.com> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; powerpc-apple-darwin7.8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:12:12 +0100 Alexandru Petrescu wrote: > Thierry Ernst wrote: > > Just one small note: there could be many CNs and only a few MNNs but > > still a BU storm: imagine that someone set up a web server in a > > bus. > > Ok, but just as a sidenote, and I don't try to interfere with the > discussion: isn't it that before BU is sent to CN, there should be a > CoT sent to it, at which point we may need to actually talk about a > "CoT storm"? Something like "CoT storm" precedes any "BU storm" to > CN? Let's call this a signaling storm then since we don't want the analysis to focus on specific solutions. > > With this in mind, and with a high number of CNs, the quantity of > > signaling traffic may be very significant to the quantity of data > > traffic. > > > > One example: an IPv6 sensor in a vehicle queried via SMTP every X > > seconds. For some reasons, the number of CNs happens to be high. > > Although the data traffic is not significant, the signaling traffic > > may well be high. > > Well, in this particular scenario, unless one could give a rough > comparison of packet sizes SNMP-BU, I would imagine that the potential > BU storm is preceded by an equally-sized SNMP storm. May be, but I don't see the point Alex. The point is that the signaling cost could be significantly high in both absolute values and in comparison with the data cost. Thierry From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 12:43:59 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24750 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:43:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8ijN-0000Lz-J8; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:42:53 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8ijM-0000Lr-KK for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:42:52 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24606 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8ilm-0002wc-Cg for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:45:23 -0500 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (144.254.224.150) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Mar 2005 19:01:27 +0100 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Received: from xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-332.cisco.com [144.254.231.87]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j28HeVm2011760; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:40:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from xmb-ams-337.cisco.com ([144.254.231.82]) by xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:40:38 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:40:34 +0100 Message-ID: <7892795E1A87F04CADFCCF41FADD00FC99592E@xmb-ams-337.emea.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: why RO is desirable Thread-Index: AcUjoB042QUTSdJhSm21hBtUYGqdIAAZVqmA From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" To: "Thierry Ernst" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Mar 2005 17:40:38.0924 (UTC) FILETIME=[F1272CC0:01C52405] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [nemo] why RO is desirable X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thierry Ernst wrote: | There are 2 reasons why RO is desirable: |=20 | 1. you have a high quantity of traffic and transmitting all these | packets via the home agent would consume to many network resources if | the CN is relatively closer to the MNN on the direct path. |=20 | 2. you have a small quantity of traffic, but it is very sensitive to | delay, so you need the shortest path if the CN is relatively closer to | the MNN on the direct path. |=20 I would add a 3rd one which comes from the radio. Each radio hop adds a probability of loss. If the traffic becomes useless at a given degree of loss, RO might be highly desirable.=20 One example of that is MNN to MNN RO, which might save a number of radio hops in a (fixed or mobile) mesh network. What do you think? Pascal=20 From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 13:23:00 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28355 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:23:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8jKd-0003uc-4q; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:21:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8jKc-0003uX-EA for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:21:22 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28263 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8jN2-0003l0-NA for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:23:54 -0500 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (144.254.224.150) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Mar 2005 19:41:57 +0100 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Received: from xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-332.cisco.com [144.254.231.87]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j28IKlmC016041; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:21:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from xmb-ams-337.cisco.com ([144.254.231.82]) by xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:21:07 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [nemo] draft-zhao-nemo-ro-ps-01 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:20:59 +0100 Message-ID: <7892795E1A87F04CADFCCF41FADD00FC995951@xmb-ams-337.emea.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [nemo] draft-zhao-nemo-ro-ps-01 Thread-Index: AcUjdyEsIQuN2b5UTn6G5To+BUlRxAAlDCUA From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" To: "Fan Zhao" , "Masafumi Watari" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Mar 2005 18:21:07.0299 (UTC) FILETIME=[9893CB30:01C5240B] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable |=20 | > OTOH, I prefer to have a term to refer Correspondent MNNs. Currently, | > they are all refered to as CNs as defined in | > draft-ietf-nemo-terminology-03, but the problem greatly differs | > depending on their attachment point. I used nested CNs but does not | > sound right either. Any thoughts? | > | This is a good suggestion. We should give different terms to these two | kinds of CN. |=20 Agreed: Maybe CMNN is a bit long. Could we call these guys Mobile Correspondent (MC), so we would have MCN and MCR type of nodes? Pascal From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 13:44:59 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00369 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:44:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8jfL-00059s-Hy; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:42:47 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8jfJ-00059e-Aq for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:42:45 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00123 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate.mot.com ([129.188.136.100]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8jhj-0004D9-GY for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:45:16 -0500 Received: from az33exr01.mot.com (az33exr01.mot.com [10.64.251.231]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id j28IgfvQ000242; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:42:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.180.34.242] (mvp-10-180-34-242.am.mot.com [10.180.34.242]) by az33exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j28IjIH6028559; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:45:19 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <422DF21D.3020101@motorola.com> Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:42:37 +0100 From: Christophe Janneteau User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Subject: Re: [nemo] draft-zhao-nemo-ro-ps-01 References: <7892795E1A87F04CADFCCF41FADD00FC995951@xmb-ams-337.emea.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7892795E1A87F04CADFCCF41FADD00FC995951@xmb-ams-337.emea.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org, Masafumi Watari X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, About the terminology: I would prefer CMNN to talk about a node inside a mobile network (MNN) which is playing the role of Correspondent Node (CN). We would have CLFN, CVMN, CMR... A MCN (or CMN) could be understoud as a standalone MN that play the role of correspondent node, but not necessarily placed inside a moving network (i.e. not necessarily an MNN). Christophe. Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > | > | > OTOH, I prefer to have a term to refer Correspondent MNNs. > Currently, > | > they are all refered to as CNs as defined in > | > draft-ietf-nemo-terminology-03, but the problem greatly differs > | > depending on their attachment point. I used nested CNs but does not > | > sound right either. Any thoughts? > | > > | This is a good suggestion. We should give different terms to these two > | kinds of CN. > | > Agreed: > > Maybe CMNN is a bit long. Could we call these guys Mobile Correspondent > (MC), so we would have MCN and MCR type of nodes? > > Pascal > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 14:03:54 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02441 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:03:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8jwI-0006rG-Nv; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:00:18 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8jwH-0006rB-Cd for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:00:17 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02194 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:00:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate8.mot.com ([129.188.136.8]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8jyi-0004g6-0E for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:02:49 -0500 Received: from il06exr03.mot.com (il06exr03.mot.com [129.188.137.133]) by motgate8.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate8) with ESMTP id j28J2P2C010063; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:02:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.181.32.115] (mvp-10-181-32-115.ea.mot.com [10.181.32.115]) by il06exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j28J0xED020844; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:00:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <422DF636.6090002@motorola.com> Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:00:06 +0100 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thierry Ernst Subject: Re: [nemo] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04.txt] References: <1109212478.19951.18.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050304.080954.41679403.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1109903908.9350.11.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050308.062221.71173690.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1110238701.11209.3.camel@localhost> <20050308143300.43a5e118.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <422DA4AC.9000903@motorola.com> <20050309004101.653ad954.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: <20050309004101.653ad954.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigC0659DF2A85320BD8D1BA2E3" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigC0659DF2A85320BD8D1BA2E3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thierry Ernst wrote: >>> Just one small note: there could be many CNs and only a few MNNs >>> but still a BU storm: imagine that someone set up a web server in >>> a bus. >> >> Ok, but just as a sidenote, and I don't try to interfere with the >> discussion: isn't it that before BU is sent to CN, there should be >> a CoT sent to it, at which point we may need to actually talk about >> a "CoT storm"? Something like "CoT storm" precedes any "BU storm" >> to CN? > > Let's call this a signaling storm then since we don't want the > analysis to focus on specific solutions. I tend to agree to not focus on a specific solution, but as long as we say MIP6 and BU to CN then we implicitly say RR anyways (which is understood as a specific solution as I see). >>> One example: an IPv6 sensor in a vehicle queried via SMTP every X >>> seconds. For some reasons, the number of CNs happens to be high. >>> Although the data traffic is not significant, the signaling >>> traffic may well be high. >> >> Well, in this particular scenario, unless one could give a rough >> comparison of packet sizes SNMP-BU, I would imagine that the >> potential BU storm is preceded by an equally-sized SNMP storm. > > May be, but I don't see the point Alex. The point is that the > signaling cost could be significantly high in both absolute values > and in comparison with the data cost. Ok, I tend to agree. Alex --------------enigC0659DF2A85320BD8D1BA2E3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCLfY8MmC0w56zj54RAmzFAKDlyFhv1aZYbJIOq+M4jC9e5RC7QgCeNxwb vUFqt2tpUeLknCvPcGYm8q8= =kV1y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigC0659DF2A85320BD8D1BA2E3-- From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 14:39:17 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05655 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:39:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8kWj-00023n-Jp; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:37:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8kWh-00023i-SC for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:37:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05573 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:37:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.129.67.225] (helo=mozart.psl.com.sg) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8kZ9-0005XA-9P for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:40:27 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mozart.psl.com.sg (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7E99E56D; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 03:42:22 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: [nemo] More comments on draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04 From: Chan-Wah NG To: Thierry Ernst In-Reply-To: <20050308151425.2525d93d.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> References: <20050308151425.2525d93d.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Panasonic Singapore Labs Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 03:42:22 +0800 Message-Id: <1110310942.11423.40.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5fb88b8381f3896aeacc5a021513237b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Thierry, thank you for your extensive comments. See (some) responses in-line. /rgds /cwng On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 15:14 +0900, Thierry Ernst wrote: > Dear draft authors, > > Here are a couple more comments on the draft. I think it has reached a > very good quality. > > I wonder if it would be possible (or reasonable) to have some > considerations for multihomed configurations (of course, that may be too > complex to deal with this in this draft). > It was actually in a previous incarnation of the draft, however, we feel it may be a bit premature (and certainly complex) to include multihoming considerations. > > 1. Introduction > > With current Network Mobility (NEMO) Basic Support [1], all > communications to and from nodes in a mobile network must go through > the bi-directional tunnel established between the Mobile Router (MR) > and its Home Agent (HA) when the mobile network is away. Although > such an arrangement allows Mobile Network Nodes (MNNs) to reach and > be reached by any node on the Internet, there are associated > limitations which might be unacceptable for certain applications. In > particular, voice over IP has strict requirements on packet jotter > > jitter > > To such end, this document first describes the problem of Route > Optimization in NEMO in Section 2. Next, Section 3 discusses the > benefits route optimization might bring to NEMO. Follwing this, > > following > > > 2. Problem Statement of NEMO Route Optimization > > Readers might be interested to note the availability of [6] which > also discusses the problem statement of NEMO Route Optimization. > > There were 2 other drafts, [7] and draft-clausen. > > 2.1 Sub-Optimality with NEMO Basic Support > > With NEMO Basic Support, all packets sent between a Mobile Network > Node and its Correspondent Node are forwarded through the MR-HA > tunnel. This results in a sub-optimal routing, also known as > "dog-leg routing", with NEMO Basic Support. This sub-optimality has > the following undesirable effects: > > May be it is useful to recall what "dog-leg routing" is (or isn't it > better to use another term, like pin-ball routing or to simply remove > this sentence since the description of the issue is written in "longer > route" ? It is a terminology issue. I will check what is the more prevailing terminology. (PS, Is there any related terms defined in draft-ietf-nemo-terminology?) > > o Increased chances of packet fragmentation > > The increased in packet size due to packet encapsulation may > > "The increased packet size" or "The increase in the packet size ..." > > 2.3 MIPv6 Host in Mobile Networks > > When a MIPv6 mobile node joins a mobile network, it becomes a > Visiting Mobile Node (VMN) of the mobile network. Packets sent to > and from the Visiting Mobile Node will have to be routed not only to > the Home Agent of the Visiting Mobile Node, but also to the Home > Agent of the Mobile Router in the mobile network. This suffers the > same amplification effect of nested Mobile Router mentioned in > Section 2.2. > > Well, if this is a VMN and if packet must be routed to the home agent of > the VMN, it means it operates MIP6. So, why would the packet be sent to > the VMN's HA ? Sorry, I don't quite catch your question. Is there a typo somewhere in your question? > > I think the paragraph below and the one that follows could be grouped. > > > > 3. Benefits of NEMO Route Optimization > > Actually, isn't it straight forward form the list of issues in the > precedent section ? I mean, for instance, if the issue is "larger > delay", solving the necessarily means "shorter delay". > > So, 2 and 3 may be indeed redundant. > Perhaps, unless someone comes up with a side effect of RO that is actually beneficial :) > > 4.1 MR-to-CN Optimization > > o Binding Update with Network Prefix > > This approach is particularly useful when a lot of MNNs in a > mobile network is communicating with a few corresponding nodes. > In such cases, a single Binding Update can optimize the routes of > many flows between the Correspondent Node and the MNNs. > > can => would > > > 4.3 Nested Tunnels Optimization > > o Mobile Home > > This model applies to a category of problems where the mobile > networks share a same administration and consistently move > together (e.g. a fleet at sea). In this model, there is a > cascade of Home Agents. The main Home Agent is fixed in the > infrastructure, and advertises an aggregated view of all the > mobile networks. This aggregation is actually divided over a > number of mobile routers, the root-MRs. The root-MRs subdivide > some of their address space to the other Mobile Routers forming > their fleet, for which they are Home Agent. As Home Agents, the > > I don't understand how the root-MR becomes a HA. > > o MANET Routing > > top-level Mobile Router: I would use root-MR, to keep consistency with > other sections (also, we have agreed to deprecate this term). > ub-sections to be incurred. Agreed. > > 5.2 Increased Protocol Complexity > > Some nodes will be required to have additional functionalities in > order to incorporate NEMO Extended Support. This increases the node > complexity. It may not be feasible to implement new functionalities > on legacy nodes. If such nodes are mobile, this may prove to be a > significant cost due to the limited memory resources such devices > usually have. > > such nodes: is this the "legacy nodes" in the sentence before, or is > this related to "Some nodes" at the beginning of the paragraph ? > Ok, "such nodes" = "Some nodes" . will clear this up. > > > 5.5 Other Considerations > > o Compatibility with NEMO Basic Support > > It will be beneficial to vendors if a route optimized solution for > NEMO is compatible with NEMO Basic Support. This reduces the > complexity and achieves greater reuse of existing functionalities. > > I think it MUST be compatible with NEMO BS, if we assume NEMO BS as the > backup mechanisms to provide for session continuity. > Perhaps compatible is not such a good word. What I am thinking when I wrote that paragraph was more like "similarity" instead of "compatibility". > > 6. Analysis of Solution Space > > o Binding Update Storm > > If the Mobile Network Nodes in a mobile network are communicating > with a lot of Correspondent Nodes, whenever the Mobile Router > changes its point of attachment, it needs to send out a large > number of binding updates to Correspondent Nodes. This is further > worsen by the fact that the Mobile Router has to perform the > return routability procedure prior to sending binding updates. > > See my earlier mail: there are are also the periodic BUs that must be > sent to refresh binding caches. Of-course. > > > 6.3 Nested Tunnels Optimization > > o Binding Update Storm > > Depending on the specifics of a solution for nested tunnels > optimization, the upstream information may be the care-of address > of the upstream Mobile Router. This will leads to the a burst of > Binding Update messages whenever an upstream Mobile Router changes > its point of attachment, since all its sub-MRs must send binding > updates to their Home Agents to update the new upstream > information. > > How does it compare with solutions x.1, x.2 where BUs are sent to CNs (I > think in the present case BUs are not sent to CNs) ? Wouldn't it be > better to speak about "Signaling Overhead" ? > Agree, a signalling storm is the more general (and perhaps accurate) term. > > > 6.4 MIPv6-over-NEMO Optimization > > o Mobility Awareness > > The Visiting Mobile Node will need to acquire the upstream > information, most likely including the mobility and location > information of the upstream Mobile Routers. > > Is this an issues for a VMN ? Isn't it always the case for a MIP6 node > and couldn't it be considered as "normal" ? Huh? No, current specs in RFC 3775 does not require a MIPv6 in a Mobile Network to know any information about the MR. > o Processing Burden > > This approach also increases the processing burden of the Mobile > Router, as it needs to maintain information necessary for Route > Optimization to work for every Correspondent Node that is > communicating with each visiting mobile node. This may not scale > very well when one consider, for example, a train network, where > there are hundreds of Visiting Mobile Nodes in one mobile network. > > What about BU storm (or signaling overhead, if you prefer) ? Of-ourse. BU (or signalling) storm is a issue for almost all types of approach, and hence is not repeated in analysis of every specific approach. > 9. References > > [7] Ernst, T., "Route Optimization with Nested Correspondent > Nodes", Internet-Draft draft-watari-nemo-nested-cn-00, October > 2004. > > Watari is the first author. I don't know how the IETF secretariat comes > to mix this up in the draft announcement. > Sorry, but blame it on the xml depository :) /rgds /cwng From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 14:59:18 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09258 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8kpM-0006hq-7M; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:57:12 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8kpK-0006hY-IU for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:57:10 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA08675 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.129.67.225] (helo=mozart.psl.com.sg) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8krl-0006Wk-MX for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:59:43 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mozart.psl.com.sg (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBEA9E56D; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:01:37 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: [nemo] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04.txt] From: Chan-Wah NG To: Alexandru Petrescu In-Reply-To: <422DF636.6090002@motorola.com> References: <1109212478.19951.18.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050304.080954.41679403.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1109903908.9350.11.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050308.062221.71173690.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1110238701.11209.3.camel@localhost> <20050308143300.43a5e118.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <422DA4AC.9000903@motorola.com> <20050309004101.653ad954.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <422DF636.6090002@motorola.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Panasonic Singapore Labs Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 04:01:37 +0800 Message-Id: <1110312097.11423.59.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org, Thierry Ernst X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 20:00 +0100, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: > Thierry Ernst wrote: > >>> Just one small note: there could be many CNs and only a few MNNs > >>> but still a BU storm: imagine that someone set up a web server in > >>> a bus. > >> > >> Ok, but just as a sidenote, and I don't try to interfere with the > >> discussion: isn't it that before BU is sent to CN, there should be > >> a CoT sent to it, at which point we may need to actually talk about > >> a "CoT storm"? Something like "CoT storm" precedes any "BU storm" > >> to CN? > > > > Let's call this a signaling storm then since we don't want the > > analysis to focus on specific solutions. > > I tend to agree to not focus on a specific solution, but as long as we > say MIP6 and BU to CN then we implicitly say RR anyways (which is > understood as a specific solution as I see). > Agree on the term "signalling storm" being more appropriate than BU-Storm. As for specific solution, I guess we can avoid that by saying something like "Route optimization between a few MNN and a large number of CNs would also lead to a signalling storm". No specific details like "BU to CN" and "MIP6". > >>> One example: an IPv6 sensor in a vehicle queried via SMTP every X > >>> seconds. For some reasons, the number of CNs happens to be high. > >>> Although the data traffic is not significant, the signaling > >>> traffic may well be high. > >> > >> Well, in this particular scenario, unless one could give a rough > >> comparison of packet sizes SNMP-BU, I would imagine that the > >> potential BU storm is preceded by an equally-sized SNMP storm. > > > > May be, but I don't see the point Alex. The point is that the > > signaling cost could be significantly high in both absolute values > > and in comparison with the data cost. > > Ok, I tend to agree. > Sorry, but we are discussing NEMO RO, so SNMP packets are not signalling packets, but data packets as far as NEMO is concerned (unless of-course the SNMP packets are sent to achieve RO, but that is not what is said in the example). SO I don't understand where this is leading to. Suffice to say I concur that "signalling storm" is a more appropriate term than "BU storm". /rgds /cwng From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 15:07:16 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA11177 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:07:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8kvF-0000Bf-1x; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:03:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8kvD-0008WS-Hg for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:03:15 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10074 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.142.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8kxf-0006xk-AP for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:05:47 -0500 Received: from iseran.local (wireless-130-129-134-94.ietf62.ietf.org [130.129.134.94]) by mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68ED4C6E0 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 05:03:04 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 05:07:23 +0900 From: Thierry Ernst To: nemo@ietf.org Subject: Re: [nemo] More comments on draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04 Message-Id: <20050309050723.1b780d27.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: <1110310942.11423.40.camel@localhost> References: <20050308151425.2525d93d.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1110310942.11423.40.camel@localhost> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; powerpc-apple-darwin7.8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > > May be it is useful to recall what "dog-leg routing" is (or isn't it > > better to use another term, like pin-ball routing or to simply > > remove this sentence since the description of the issue is written > > in "longer route" ? > > It is a terminology issue. I will check what is the more prevailing > terminology. (PS, Is there any related terms defined in > draft-ietf-nemo-terminology?) No, and neither in RFC 3753 which I just checked. > > 2.3 MIPv6 Host in Mobile Networks > > > > When a MIPv6 mobile node joins a mobile network, it becomes a > > Visiting Mobile Node (VMN) of the mobile network. Packets sent > > to and from the Visiting Mobile Node will have to be routed not > > only to the Home Agent of the Visiting Mobile Node, but also to > > the Home Agent of the Mobile Router in the mobile network. This > > suffers the same amplification effect of nested Mobile Router > > mentioned in Section 2.2. > > > > Well, if this is a VMN and if packet must be routed to the home > > agent of the VMN, it means it operates MIP6. So, why would the > > packet be sent to the VMN's HA ? > > Sorry, I don't quite catch your question. Is there a typo somewhere > in your question? What I mean is that if the VMN operates MIP6, the path will be optimized to avoid the VMN's HA. So, you end up with the same routing inefficiency as for a LFN. > > 3. Benefits of NEMO Route Optimization > > > > Actually, isn't it straight forward form the list of issues in the > > precedent section ? I mean, for instance, if the issue is "larger > > delay", solving the necessarily means "shorter delay". > > > > So, 2 and 3 may be indeed redundant. > > > Perhaps, unless someone comes up with a side effect of RO that is > actually beneficial :) So, you can also turn this into a way (a benefit) or another (an issue). Doing both is just not necessary IMHO. > > 6.4 MIPv6-over-NEMO Optimization > > > > o Mobility Awareness > > > > The Visiting Mobile Node will need to acquire the upstream > > information, most likely including the mobility and location > > information of the upstream Mobile Routers. > > > > Is this an issues for a VMN ? Isn't it always the case for a MIP6 > > node and couldn't it be considered as "normal" ? > > Huh? No, current specs in RFC 3775 does not require a MIPv6 in a > Mobile Network to know any information about the MR. I guess I missread before writing the comment. Thierry From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 15:12:41 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA12366 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8l37-0002qE-R3; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:11:25 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8l36-0002pz-KI for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:11:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA12180 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:11:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.142.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8l5Y-0007PN-ON for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:13:57 -0500 Received: from iseran.local (wireless-130-129-134-94.ietf62.ietf.org [130.129.134.94]) by mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id B96174C6E0 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 05:11:11 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 05:15:30 +0900 From: Thierry Ernst To: nemo@ietf.org Subject: Re: [nemo] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04.txt] Message-Id: <20050309051530.4b464a90.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: <1110312097.11423.59.camel@localhost> References: <1109212478.19951.18.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050304.080954.41679403.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1109903908.9350.11.camel@bach.psl.com.sg> <20050308.062221.71173690.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1110238701.11209.3.camel@localhost> <20050308143300.43a5e118.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <422DA4AC.9000903@motorola.com> <20050309004101.653ad954.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <422DF636.6090002@motorola.com> <1110312097.11423.59.camel@localhost> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; powerpc-apple-darwin7.8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >>> One example: an IPv6 sensor in a vehicle queried via SMTP every > > >X >> seconds. For some reasons, the number of CNs happens to be > > >high. >> Although the data traffic is not significant, the > > >signaling >> traffic may well be high. > > >> > > >> Well, in this particular scenario, unless one could give a rough > > >> comparison of packet sizes SNMP-BU, I would imagine that the > > >> potential BU storm is preceded by an equally-sized SNMP storm. > > > > > > May be, but I don't see the point Alex. The point is that the > > > signaling cost could be significantly high in both absolute values > > > and in comparison with the data cost. > > > > Ok, I tend to agree. > > > > Sorry, but we are discussing NEMO RO, so SNMP packets are not > signalling packets, but data packets as far as NEMO is concerned > (unless of-course the SNMP packets are sent to achieve RO, but that is > not what is said in the example). SO I don't understand where this > is leading to. Please read the top of this mail, I just used this as an example to demonstrate that in some situations the signaling cost is more significant that it may sounds, and significantly important compared to the amount of data packets. > Suffice to say I concur that "signalling storm" is a more appropriate > term than "BU storm". Thierry From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 15:38:26 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17125 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:38:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8lSb-0000kB-K3; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:37:45 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8lSa-0000k6-Sp for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:37:44 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17047 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailout.zma.compaq.com ([161.114.64.103] helo=zmamail03.zma.compaq.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8lV1-00007f-VA for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:40:17 -0500 Received: from mailrelay01.cce.cpqcorp.net (mailrelay01.cce.cpqcorp.net [16.47.68.171]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C507CA79E; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:37:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from kitche.zk3.dec.com (kitche4.zk3.dec.com [16.140.160.166]) by mailrelay01.cce.cpqcorp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5BC5666; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:37:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] by kitche.zk3.dec.com (8.11.1/1.1.27.5/27Oct00-1235PM) id j28KbSt0002135530; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:37:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <422E0CFA.2000409@hp.com> Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:37:14 -0500 From: Brian Haley Organization: HP Linux and Open Source Lab User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryuji Wakikawa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org Subject: [nemo] draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01.txt X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ryuji, Comment about the v4tunnel draft. In Section 4.3, second paragraph: "If the Home Agent that receives the Binding Update is a legacy Mobile IPv6 Home Agent and does not understand the new IPv4 Care-of Address option, it ignores the Binding Update." But Section 6.2.1 of RFC 3775 says: "Implementations MUST silently ignore any mobility options that they do not understand." So a legacy HA will ignore the option, but treat the BU as a de-reg as stated later in that paragraph, right? I guess it's not that important as anyone deploying a MR that supports v4 tunnels will certainly update the HA as well. -Brian From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 8 15:50:35 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18165 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:50:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8law-000334-NZ; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:46:22 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8lau-00032t-Hu for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:46:20 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17840 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:46:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from wireless-130-129-135-214.ietf62.ietf.org ([130.129.135.214] helo=mozart.psl.com.sg) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8ldM-0000Lq-2q for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:48:53 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mozart.psl.com.sg (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA099E56D; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:49:43 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: [nemo] More comments on draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04 From: Chan-Wah NG To: Thierry Ernst In-Reply-To: <20050309050723.1b780d27.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> References: <20050308151425.2525d93d.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1110310942.11423.40.camel@localhost> <20050309050723.1b780d27.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Panasonic Singapore Labs Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 04:49:43 +0800 Message-Id: <1110314983.11256.12.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF NEMO WG X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Thierry, On Wed, 2005-03-09 at 05:07 +0900, Thierry Ernst wrote: > > > 2.3 MIPv6 Host in Mobile Networks > > > > > > When a MIPv6 mobile node joins a mobile network, it becomes a > > > Visiting Mobile Node (VMN) of the mobile network. Packets sent > > > to and from the Visiting Mobile Node will have to be routed not > > > only to the Home Agent of the Visiting Mobile Node, but also to > > > the Home Agent of the Mobile Router in the mobile network. This > > > suffers the same amplification effect of nested Mobile Router > > > mentioned in Section 2.2. > > > > > > Well, if this is a VMN and if packet must be routed to the home > > > agent of the VMN, it means it operates MIP6. So, why would the > > > packet be sent to the VMN's HA ? > > > > Sorry, I don't quite catch your question. Is there a typo somewhere > > in your question? > > What I mean is that if the VMN operates MIP6, the path will be optimized > to avoid the VMN's HA. So, you end up with the same routing > inefficiency as for a LFN. Ah, that is if the VMN is using RO with whatever CN it is communicating with. If not, the packet would be routed to the HA of VMN. I believe in the next paragraph of the text we continue on to explain what happen if the VMN actually does RO with CN. > > > 3. Benefits of NEMO Route Optimization > > > > > > Actually, isn't it straight forward form the list of issues in the > > > precedent section ? I mean, for instance, if the issue is "larger > > > delay", solving the necessarily means "shorter delay". > > > > > > So, 2 and 3 may be indeed redundant. > > > > > Perhaps, unless someone comes up with a side effect of RO that is > > actually beneficial :) > > So, you can also turn this into a way (a benefit) or another (an issue). > Doing both is just not necessary IMHO. Noted. I am not saying we must have a "Benefits" section. I included it to be complete, and see if anyone can come up with additional benefits of RO. I am not so certain that any benefits can be turn into an opposite problem, unless you call a lack of that benefit a problem. However, since we are not able to come up with any, Section 3 may indeed be redundant. /rgds /cwng From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 9 10:03:10 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12069 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:03:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D92hq-0003iy-Rw; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:02:38 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D92hp-0003it-2k for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:02:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA11980 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:02:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from shaku.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.143.49]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D92kP-0001kd-T5 for nemo@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:05:19 -0500 Received: from [130.129.135.61] (wireless-130-129-135-61.ietf62.ietf.org [130.129.135.61]) (authenticated bits=0) by shaku.sfc.wide.ad.jp (8.12.10/8.12.0) with ESMTP id j29F1TFk022083; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:01:49 +0900 In-Reply-To: <422E0CFA.2000409@hp.com> References: <422E0CFA.2000409@hp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <326a0439f763f13d373c2bd530a1e6f4@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ryuji Wakikawa Subject: Re: [nemo] draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01.txt Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:47:14 +0900 To: Brian Haley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian Thanks for comments. You observation is right. However, this case is rarely happened. Before sending BU with IPv4 CoA sub-opt, MN must have IPv4 address of HA and establish SA (IPv4) with HA. If HA can not process the new sub-option, it is likely misconfiguration. In addition, MN can know this misconfiguration due to lack of BA. What MN can do after the absence of BA is 1. MN tries to get v6 CoA by the use of general v4 traversal mechanism 2. MN gives up due to no IPv6 address. regards, ryuji On 2005/03/09, at 5:37, Brian Haley wrote: > Hi Ryuji, > > Comment about the v4tunnel draft. > > In Section 4.3, second paragraph: > > "If the Home Agent that receives the Binding Update is a legacy > Mobile > IPv6 Home Agent and does not understand the new IPv4 Care-of Address > option, it ignores the Binding Update." > > But Section 6.2.1 of RFC 3775 says: > > "Implementations MUST silently ignore any mobility options that they > do not understand." > > So a legacy HA will ignore the option, but treat the BU as a de-reg as > stated later in that paragraph, right? > > I guess it's not that important as anyone deploying a MR that supports > v4 tunnels will certainly update the HA as well. > > -Brian From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 9 12:25:15 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA28479 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:25:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D94tn-0000WD-PG; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 12:23:07 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D94tm-0000W8-Vz for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 12:23:07 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA28276 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:23:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.142.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D94wP-0005Zd-E0 for nemo@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 12:25:50 -0500 Received: from iseran.local (wireless-130-129-134-94.ietf62.ietf.org [130.129.134.94]) by mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518504C4F1 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 02:22:33 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 02:24:08 +0900 From: Thierry Ernst To: nemo@ietf.org Message-Id: <20050310022408.28dba262.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; powerpc-apple-darwin7.8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [nemo] Today's meeting slides and scribes X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, # Slides I would like to put all slides on our web before the meeting starts. So, I would appreciate if all presenters could send your final version by 14.30 IETF time. Please name your slides nemo-ietf62-keyword1-keywork2-auhor (e.g. nemo-ietf62-multihoming-issues-CWNg.pdf) and preferably send a .pdf format if you can. In case you revise your slides, please make sure you send me the lattest version. # Minutes Also, please let me know if you are taking notes of today's discussion. I know that some people sometimes do so but do not volunteer as the "official" minute scribe. Note that we don't look for perfect minutes but for a trace of the discussion (particularly questions-answers, and not the content of the slides - slides are the best source of information). So having several scribes is good as this would allow the chairs to merge them and confirm what was said or not. Thanks in advance, Thierry From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 9 15:27:12 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17202 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D97io-0001G1-PZ; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:23:58 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D97im-0001F5-Oa for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:23:57 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17001 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from node-402449f2.sfo.onnet.us.uu.net ([64.36.73.242] helo=deimos.multihop.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D97lP-0001pD-9I for nemo@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:26:41 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8796210; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from deimos.multihop.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (deimos.multihop.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11923-03; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix, from userid 1013) id F309061F1; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.103.17.191] (unknown [192.103.17.191]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A2461D0; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:23:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20050306204229.672cd12e.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> References: <20050306204229.672cd12e.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--1051360085 Message-Id: From: "T.J.Kniveton" Subject: Re: [nemo] Combining / separate Prefix Delegation drafts Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:23:46 -0800 To: Thierry Ernst X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at deimos.multihop.net X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 Cc: nemo , romain-w , Ryuji Wakikawa X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org --Apple-Mail-1--1051360085 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am just looking for someone to test with, who is willing to write the Mobile Node part of the prefix delegation draft that Pascal and I submitted. Testing the S bit and the prefix request/delegation would be enough. I am not done with our implementation yet, but it would be nice at some point to be able to actually implement and test the draft... :-) TJ On Mar 6, 2005, at 3:42 AM, Thierry Ernst wrote: > > Which prefix delegation mechanism do you think we should implement > (possibly the same) in both SHISA and NEML ? > > Thierry > > From: "T.J.Kniveton" > Date: March 4, 2005 2:40:48 PM PST > To: IETF NEMO WG > Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" > Subject: Re: [nemo] Combining / separate Prefix Delegation drafts > > > Is anyone else interested in implementing the prefix delegation from > draft-kniveton-nemo-prefix-delegation-00 in the near future? I am in > the process of implementing it right now on the HA and would like to > test with an MR or two. > > TJ > > > --Apple-Mail-1--1051360085 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am just looking for someone to test with, who is willing to write the Mobile Node part of the prefix delegation draft that Pascal and I submitted. Testing the S bit and the prefix request/delegation would be enough. I am not done with our implementation yet, but it would be nice at some point to be able to actually implement and test the draft... :-) TJ On Mar 6, 2005, at 3:42 AM, Thierry Ernst wrote: Which prefix delegation mechanism do you think we should implement (possibly the same) in both SHISA and NEML ? Thierry 0000,0000,0000 From: "T.J.Kniveton" < 0000,0000,0000Date: March 4, 2005 2:40:48 PM PST 0000,0000,0000To: IETF NEMO WG < 0000,0000,0000Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" < 0000,0000,0000Subject: Re: [nemo] Combining / separate Prefix Delegation drafts Is anyone else interested in implementing the prefix delegation from draft-kniveton-nemo-prefix-delegation-00 in the near future? I am in the process of implementing it right now on the HA and would like to test with an MR or two. TJ --Apple-Mail-1--1051360085-- From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 9 15:38:16 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18310 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D97rS-00024i-8K; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:32:54 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D97rQ-00024d-AG for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:32:52 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17705 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:32:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from node-402449f2.sfo.onnet.us.uu.net ([64.36.73.242] helo=deimos.multihop.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D97u5-00020B-DU for nemo@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:35:37 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA9061C5 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from deimos.multihop.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (deimos.multihop.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11923-07 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:32:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix, from userid 1013) id DDC2261C3; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:32:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.103.17.191] (unknown [192.103.17.191]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E03160E1 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:32:46 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <20050309050723.1b780d27.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> References: <20050308151425.2525d93d.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <1110310942.11423.40.camel@localhost> <20050309050723.1b780d27.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "T.J.Kniveton" Subject: Re: [nemo] More comments on draft-thubert-nemo-ro-taxonomy-04 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:32:44 -0800 To: nemo WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at deimos.multihop.net X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 8, 2005, at 12:07 PM, Thierry Ernst wrote: > > Hi, > >>> May be it is useful to recall what "dog-leg routing" is (or isn't it >>> better to use another term, like pin-ball routing or to simply >>> remove this sentence since the description of the issue is written >>> in "longer route" ? >> >> It is a terminology issue. I will check what is the more prevailing >> terminology. (PS, Is there any related terms defined in >> draft-ietf-nemo-terminology?) > > No, and neither in RFC 3753 which I just checked. I recommend staying away from terms like dog-leg and pinball. They are not very descriptive, so a reader unfamiliar with the literature and ML discussions wouldn't know what you're talking about. TJ From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 9 17:40:24 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28357 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D99oX-0001u0-0J; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 17:38:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D99oV-0001tt-S6 for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 17:37:59 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28075 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:37:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from node-402449f2.sfo.onnet.us.uu.net ([64.36.73.242] helo=deimos.multihop.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D99r8-0004z2-Ue for nemo@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 17:40:46 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC6761DA for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from deimos.multihop.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (deimos.multihop.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13213-07 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix, from userid 1013) id 01A4861C5; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.103.16.119] (unknown [192.103.16.119]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by deimos.multihop.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C31061D0 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:37:41 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <9ef75634b63b2eadc4f8f8a33e675c3e@kniveton.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: nemo WG From: "T.J.Kniveton" Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:37:43 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at deimos.multihop.net X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [nemo] Comments at the microphone X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, During this IETF, there is no Video streaming or capture -- it is just Audio. So now more than ever, it is important to say your name, and speak directly into the microphone. Some comments are very hard to hear, and although we know most of the voices, we don't know all of you yet. -TJ From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 9 19:17:27 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07608 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9BLb-0006oy-0Y; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 19:16:15 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9BLZ-0006oq-PP for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 19:16:13 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07556 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:16:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from style.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.143.88]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9BOE-00074V-Mz for nemo@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 19:19:00 -0500 Received: from localhost (style.sfc.wide.ad.jp [IPv6:2001:200:0:8801:202:b3ff:fe87:cb44]) by style.sfc.wide.ad.jp (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j2A0EUha012584; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:14:34 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:14:30 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20050310.091430.78715199.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> To: Christophe.Janneteau@motorola.com Subject: New terminology Re: [nemo] draft-zhao-nemo-ro-ps-01 From: Masafumi Watari In-Reply-To: <422DF21D.3020101@motorola.com> References: <7892795E1A87F04CADFCCF41FADD00FC995951@xmb-ams-337.emea.cisco.com> <422DF21D.3020101@motorola.com> Organization: Keio University X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2rc3 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org, pthubert@cisco.com X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, How about CNN as Correspondent Network Node. I don't know if we want terms for correspondent LFN and VMN... CMNN maybe a bit long as Pascal mentioned. watari On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:42:37 +0100, Christophe Janneteau wrote: > Hi, > > About the terminology: I would prefer CMNN to talk about a node inside a > mobile network (MNN) which is playing the role of Correspondent Node > (CN). We would have CLFN, CVMN, CMR... > > A MCN (or CMN) could be understoud as a standalone MN that play the role > of correspondent node, but not necessarily placed inside a moving > network (i.e. not necessarily an MNN). > > Christophe. > > Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > > | > > | > OTOH, I prefer to have a term to refer Correspondent MNNs. > > Currently, > > | > they are all refered to as CNs as defined in > > | > draft-ietf-nemo-terminology-03, but the problem greatly differs > > | > depending on their attachment point. I used nested CNs but does not > > | > sound right either. Any thoughts? > > | > > > | This is a good suggestion. We should give different terms to these two > > | kinds of CN. > > | > > Agreed: > > > > Maybe CMNN is a bit long. Could we call these guys Mobile Correspondent > > (MC), so we would have MCN and MCR type of nodes? > > > > Pascal > > > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 9 22:36:54 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA25098 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:36:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9EOw-0001tO-IA; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 22:31:54 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9EOv-0001tB-4B for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 22:31:53 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA24719 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:31:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate8.mot.com ([129.188.136.8]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9ERd-0002bB-17 for nemo@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 22:34:42 -0500 Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by motgate8.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate8) with ESMTP id j2A3Sv2C014457; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:28:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.180.37.230] (mvp-10-180-37-230.am.mot.com [10.180.37.230]) by az33exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j2A3RDrx013698; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:27:14 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <422FBE71.6090800@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:26:41 +0100 From: Christophe Janneteau User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Masafumi Watari Subject: Re: New terminology Re: [nemo] draft-zhao-nemo-ro-ps-01 References: <7892795E1A87F04CADFCCF41FADD00FC995951@xmb-ams-337.emea.cisco.com> <422DF21D.3020101@motorola.com> <20050310.091430.78715199.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: <20050310.091430.78715199.watari@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org, pthubert@cisco.com X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Watari, Why not! CNN is less explicit about the fact that the node actually belongs to a "mobile" network, but it is shorter which is a good :) Christophe. Masafumi Watari wrote: > Hi, > > How about CNN as Correspondent Network Node. > I don't know if we want terms for correspondent LFN and VMN... > > CMNN maybe a bit long as Pascal mentioned. > > watari > > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:42:37 +0100, > Christophe Janneteau wrote: > > >>Hi, >> >>About the terminology: I would prefer CMNN to talk about a node inside a >>mobile network (MNN) which is playing the role of Correspondent Node >>(CN). We would have CLFN, CVMN, CMR... >> >>A MCN (or CMN) could be understoud as a standalone MN that play the role >>of correspondent node, but not necessarily placed inside a moving >>network (i.e. not necessarily an MNN). >> >>Christophe. >> >>Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >> >> >>>| >>>| > OTOH, I prefer to have a term to refer Correspondent MNNs. >>>Currently, >>>| > they are all refered to as CNs as defined in >>>| > draft-ietf-nemo-terminology-03, but the problem greatly differs >>>| > depending on their attachment point. I used nested CNs but does not >>>| > sound right either. Any thoughts? >>>| > >>>| This is a good suggestion. We should give different terms to these two >>>| kinds of CN. >>>| >>>Agreed: >>> >>>Maybe CMNN is a bit long. Could we call these guys Mobile Correspondent >>>(MC), so we would have MCN and MCR type of nodes? >>> >>>Pascal >>> >> > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 11 05:12:52 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA03301 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:12:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9h7j-00071B-8Y; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:12:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9h7g-0006yr-Na for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:12:00 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA03078 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:11:54 -0500 (EST) From: hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn Received: from [211.144.97.11] (helo=guanghua.sh.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9hAa-0002Ft-Dy for nemo@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:15:01 -0500 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C52618.2B30EF28" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:56:09 +0800 Message-ID: <719604C35A6FE2458D14695D0D2398664002C3@master.guanghua.sh.cn> Thread-Topic: Why there are so many spam in this mail list? Thread-Index: AcUmGEi7+HWc+vWVQnaLmC0u6HIkMg== To: X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 Subject: [nemo] Why there are so many spam in this mail list? X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C52618.2B30EF28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Awful for all those spam producers! =20 :-( ------_=_NextPart_001_01C52618.2B30EF28 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Awful for all those spam = producers!

 

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=
------_=_NextPart_001_01C52618.2B30EF28-- From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 11 14:09:53 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26529 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:09:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9pU2-0002G9-8j; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:07:38 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9pTz-0002Am-OO; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:07:35 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26393; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:07:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx2.grc.nasa.gov ([128.156.11.69]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9pX3-0004L6-AU; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:10:45 -0500 Received: from lombok-fi.grc.nasa.gov (seraph1.grc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.10]) by mx2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38952C249; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:07:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from apataki.grc.nasa.gov (apataki.grc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.35]) by lombok-fi.grc.nasa.gov (NASA GRC TCPD 8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2BJ7KRs005469; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apataki.grc.nasa.gov (NASA GRC TCPD 8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j2BJ7KQZ025033; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from apataki.grc.nasa.gov ([127.0.0.1])by localhost (apataki.grc.n asa.gov [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)with ESMTP id 20498-20; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from webmail.grc.nasa.gov (ragnarok.grc.nasa.gov [128.156.253.19]) by apataki.grc.nasa.gov (NASA GRC TCPD 8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j2BJ7Hq P024910;Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by webmail.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 501)id DC23233800F; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from grc.nasa.gov (oh-northolmstead1-16-134.clvhoh.adelphia.net [6 8.71.111.134])by webmail.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix) with ESMTPid 4A18D33800D; F ri, 11 Mar 2005 14:07:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4231EC62.3050800@grc.nasa.gov> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:07:14 -0500 From: ivancic User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mip4@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, nemo , hip@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed X-imss-version: 2.19 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-approveListMatch: *@*.nasa.gov Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [nemo] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative filtering X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please excuse the cross-post. This week I sat in 4 IETF sessions that all where discussing very=20 similar, if not the same, problem of NAT traversal. HIP, MIP6 and NEMO=20 where generally discussing 6 to 4 tunneling issues and the need to=20 address NATs. MIP4 was not concerned with 6 to 4 tunneling, just NAT=20 traversal in general. I have used Cisco=92s mobile networking MIP4 code with NAT traversal and=20 Cisco=92s (draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal-01 - expired) Doors 6 to 4=20 UDP-base tunneling NAT traversal code. Both work, but here is something to be aware of. About 18 months ago we=20 noticed T-Mobile began administratively filtering traffic. The end=20 result is that traffic that does not originate from the T-Mobile network=20 gets blocked. They appear to be using ports to map the traffic. Thus,=20 and IP-in-IP tunnel gets blocked even though the initial traffic came=20 from within T-Mobile=92s network (no ports to map to for IP-in-IP=20 tunnels). UDP tunnels operate over this. That is why we used T-Mobile=92s= =20 links for an mobile-ipv6 demonstration. The Doors implementation could=20 handle this. (See: http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~ivancic/ICNS2004_Demo/ICNS2004_Demo.htm= ) Sprint and Verizon may have recently started administratively filtering=20 data =96 similar result as NATing even though you have unchanged public=20 address space. One way to cope with this is UDP-in-IP tunneling, the=20 same as with NAT traversal code. NOTE: Depending on the implementation, you may have to force UDP=20 tunneling, because the address is not changing (CoA and actual address).=20 Thus, there is no easy way to auto-sense that you are getting=20 administratively filtered. I suspect this will break a lot of=20 implementations for NAT traversal =96 as this really isn=92t NAT traversa= l,=20 but =93weak=94 firewall traversal. I spoke to T-Mobile when this first started happening (actually found=20 the right person). They said that the filtering was put into place to=20 eliminate worms probing the networks. The filtering was done no so much=20 for security as to protect the valuable RF bandwidth. T-Mobile is GPRS=20 and you really get somewhere around 30 kbps in practice. Sprint and=20 Verizon are 1xRTT and get around 40 to 60 kbps in practice. Thus, worms=20 were starting to effect the usable bandwidth and QoS =96 or at least that= =20 was the fear. Thus, I agree with their security implementations as the=20 reasoning appears valid. See this URL for the T-Mobile problem: http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~ivancic/t-mobile=20 http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~ivancic/t-mobile/Letter_Customer_Service.pdf=20 =20 http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~ivancic/t-mobile/administrative_filtering.pdf= =20 =20 NATs breaks a lot of things. Security breaks the rest! J Will Ivancic From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 13 09:05:09 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA10293 for ; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DATgN-0003kE-Fz; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:03:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DATgL-0003k3-OH for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:03:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA10174 for ; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:03:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate8.mot.com ([129.188.136.8]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DATjl-0001Jj-As for nemo@ietf.org; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:06:34 -0500 Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate8.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate8) with ESMTP id j2DE522C022526; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 07:05:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.181.32.17] (mvp-10-181-32-17.ea.mot.com [10.181.32.17]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j2DE2qsE020449; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:02:53 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <42344800.5080002@motorola.com> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:02:40 +0100 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ivancic Subject: Re: [nemo] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative filtering References: <4231EC62.3050800@grc.nasa.gov> In-Reply-To: <4231EC62.3050800@grc.nasa.gov> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig28A9186563AA4496E90A8FB7" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: nemo X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig28A9186563AA4496E90A8FB7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [I'm posting this here because I've followed the v6/v4 discussions here, but I assume that any mip6 through v4 traversal would probably be done better on the mip6 list] I generally very much agree with the aspects of this email raising awareness of the fact that NAT traversal is not easy to do, especially because "NAT" is something very loosely defined and the actual boxes linking a closed system (such as telecom provider, or enterprise net) to the Internet are very often doing much more than just network-address translation: address translation, port translation, filtering, proxying and, above all this - periodic changes due to hardware upgrades, new software deployment, new security policies, etc. ivancic wrote: [...] > NOTE: Depending on the implementation, you may have to force UDP > tunneling, because the address is not changing (CoA and actual > address). Thus, there is no easy way to auto-sense that you are > getting administratively filtered. I suspect this will break a lot of > implementations for NAT traversal – as this really isn’t NAT > traversal, but “weak” firewall traversal. This is a point that deserves attention I believe. Indeed, I think this is not simply "NAT traversal" but more like "firewall traversal" (whether that's weak or not - I don't know). And of course there is no way to auto-sense you're filtered - any method of "auto-sensing" is doomed to fail when being itself filtered out. I wanted to say also that most telecom operators would allow an HTTP tcp connection out through port 80 (after login to their network), through some sort of local http proxy. This outbound http connection is probably the most common denominator of what's let through the various firewalls of various operators. Second best option may be email. That said, relying on this channel (http or smtp) one could design a protocol to cooperatively and non-intrusively "sense" through the firewall (co: MH and HA) dynamically identify which are the open ports, which protocols can pass through, etc. After this sensing one could set up the respective UDP tunnel. But, this may risk being interpreted as "port scanning" or similar, which on the firewall end may some day be interpreted as a "rogue" activity, at which point new filters may be put in place by the firewall administrator. I do not know to which extent having an RFC about firewall traversal for mobility will stop any firewall administrator from filtering whatever is currently considered "rogue" - that RFC's traffic in occurence. (because if it were enough to release an RFC, then it would have been sufficient to release an RFC saying "NAT is no good", people would remove NATs because RFC says so, and thus there would be no need of NAT traversal at all.) Finally, on the other hand, at the NEMO meeting it was said that if there's a particular scenario that needs this (NEMOv6 v4 traversal) then the effort of issuing a WG item document may be worth the effort. So, do we have a more detailed idea about this scenario? What are the network providers considered? Do we address only the v6-thtough-v4 aspects (BU with v4 CoA) or do we address the NAT traversal as well? Just some thoughts... Alex --------------enig28A9186563AA4496E90A8FB7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCNEgGMmC0w56zj54RAhzEAKDF7koumat2gdjFiu646KJZkCg+RQCg9Fo/ VRiZ/KXOWYAx7seJKABGU1s= =ZYIc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig28A9186563AA4496E90A8FB7-- From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 13 22:43:24 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA08344 for ; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:43:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DAgR3-0005qv-Ao; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:40:05 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DAPtN-0005sI-SN; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 05:00:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA24213; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 05:00:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns2.academica.fi ([217.64.177.130]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DAPwj-0001Qd-0d; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 05:03:44 -0500 Received: from [82.133.140.88] (ip82-133-140-88.adsl.academica.fi [82.133.140.88]) by ns2.academica.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A89B257055; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:56:28 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <4234106D.1030301@iki.fi> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:05:33 +0200 From: Sami Vaarala User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050116) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ivancic References: <4231EC62.3050800@grc.nasa.gov> In-Reply-To: <4231EC62.3050800@grc.nasa.gov> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.90.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:40:03 -0500 Cc: nemo , mip6@ietf.org, mip4@ietf.org, hip@ietf.org Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip4] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative filtering X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: sami.vaarala@iki.fi List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, > [...] > Sprint and Verizon may have recently started administratively filtering= =20 > data =96 similar result as NATing even though you have unchanged public= =20 > address space. One way to cope with this is UDP-in-IP tunneling, the=20 > same as with NAT traversal code. >=20 > NOTE: Depending on the implementation, you may have to force UDP=20 > tunneling, because the address is not changing (CoA and actual address)= .=20 > Thus, there is no easy way to auto-sense that you are getting=20 > administratively filtered. I suspect this will break a lot of=20 > implementations for NAT traversal =96 as this really isn=92t NAT traver= sal,=20 > but =93weak=94 firewall traversal. This is certainly an unfortunate development :( Although networks with such restrictions weren't common at the time, the 'F' (force UDP tunnelling) flag was added to the MIP4 NAT-T spec specifically to deal with such restrictions. (However, I'm quite sure this level of paranoia isn't enough, but it hasn't bitten us yet :-) Since the 'F' flag is part of the core NAT-T spec, MIP4 should be OK as long as mobile nodes expose the standard UDP forcing mechanism. Indeed, at least a few vendors made UDP tunnelling the default simply to avoid irritating blackhole situations which you point to. > I spoke to T-Mobile when this first started happening (actually found=20 > the right person). They said that the filtering was put into place to=20 > eliminate worms probing the networks. The filtering was done no so much= =20 > for security as to protect the valuable RF bandwidth. T-Mobile is GPRS=20 > [...] I'm curious - given the scenario where public addresses are used and IP-IP doesn't work, why does IP-over-UDP work better? With UDP encapsulation the MN RRQ/RRP process will establish firewall state, while with IP-IP the state is established only after the first (reverse tunneled) data packet. Is this the problem? I.e. the MN does not have traffic to send but needs to be reachable from external addresses (without corresponding IP-IP state)? Or is it the case that IP-IP state is not tracked as accurately as UDP state? Best regards, -Sami -- Sami Vaarala Chief Technology Officer Stinghorn (http://www.stinghorn.com) Secure Virtualized Software From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 14 01:40:26 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA24745 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:40:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DAjC1-0005xp-W4; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:36:46 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DAj5l-0005LF-8M; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:30:17 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA23898; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:30:16 -0500 (EST) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from mgw-x3.nokia.com ([131.228.20.26]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DAj9J-00015Z-FN; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:33:58 -0500 Received: from esdks004.ntc.nokia.com (esdks004.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.159]) by mgw-x3.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j2E6U3o26371; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:30:05 +0200 (EET) X-Scanned: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:29:12 +0200 Nokia Message Protector V1.3.34 2004121512 - RELEASE Received: (from root@localhost) by esdks004.ntc.nokia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) id j2E6TCbJ002599; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:29:12 +0200 Received: from mgw-int2.ntc.nokia.com (172.21.143.97) by esdks004.ntc.nokia.com 004O5NRH; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:29:11 EET Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh002.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.77]) by mgw-int2.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j2E6TAU15130; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:29:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from esebe016.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.55]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:28:42 +0200 Received: from esebe105.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.53]) by esebe016.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:28:41 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:28:40 +0200 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Mip6] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative filtering thread-index: AcUnCEWFWpn9HASgRyqZhxMaMNcDnwBVqKhA To: , , , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Mar 2005 06:28:41.0062 (UTC) FILETIME=[10502860:01C5285F] X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 944ecb6e61f753561f559a497458fb4f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:36:44 -0500 Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative filtering X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Will, Just as an FYI - 3GPP2 is starting to work on firewall signaling: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bajko-nsis-fw-reqs-00.txt This is meant so that terminals could selectively open or close firewall pinholes, so this could potentially help with this issue. John > -----Original Message----- > From: mip6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mip6-bounces@ietf.org]On Behalf Of > ext ivancic > Sent: 11 March, 2005 21:07 > To: mip4@ietf.org; mip6@ietf.org; nemo; hip@ietf.org > Subject: [Mip6] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative > filtering >=20 >=20 > Please excuse the cross-post. >=20 > This week I sat in 4 IETF sessions that all where discussing very=20 > similar, if not the same, problem of NAT traversal. HIP, MIP6=20 > and NEMO=20 > where generally discussing 6 to 4 tunneling issues and the need to=20 > address NATs. MIP4 was not concerned with 6 to 4 tunneling, just NAT=20 > traversal in general. >=20 > I have used Cisco=92s mobile networking MIP4 code with NAT=20 > traversal and=20 > Cisco=92s (draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal-01 - expired) Doors 6 to = 4=20 > UDP-base tunneling NAT traversal code. >=20 > Both work, but here is something to be aware of. About 18=20 > months ago we=20 > noticed T-Mobile began administratively filtering traffic. The end=20 > result is that traffic that does not originate from the=20 > T-Mobile network=20 > gets blocked. They appear to be using ports to map the traffic. Thus,=20 > and IP-in-IP tunnel gets blocked even though the initial traffic came=20 > from within T-Mobile=92s network (no ports to map to for IP-in-IP=20 > tunnels). UDP tunnels operate over this. That is why we used=20 > T-Mobile=92s=20 > links for an mobile-ipv6 demonstration. The Doors=20 > implementation could=20 > handle this. >=20 > (See:=20 > http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~ivancic/ICNS2004_Demo/ICNS2004_Demo.htm) >=20 > Sprint and Verizon may have recently started administratively=20 > filtering=20 > data =96 similar result as NATing even though you have unchanged = public=20 > address space. One way to cope with this is UDP-in-IP tunneling, the=20 > same as with NAT traversal code. >=20 > NOTE: Depending on the implementation, you may have to force UDP=20 > tunneling, because the address is not changing (CoA and=20 > actual address).=20 > Thus, there is no easy way to auto-sense that you are getting=20 > administratively filtered. I suspect this will break a lot of=20 > implementations for NAT traversal =96 as this really isn=92t NAT=20 > traversal,=20 > but =93weak=94 firewall traversal. >=20 > I spoke to T-Mobile when this first started happening (actually found=20 > the right person). They said that the filtering was put into place to=20 > eliminate worms probing the networks. The filtering was done=20 > no so much=20 > for security as to protect the valuable RF bandwidth.=20 > T-Mobile is GPRS=20 > and you really get somewhere around 30 kbps in practice. Sprint and=20 > Verizon are 1xRTT and get around 40 to 60 kbps in practice.=20 > Thus, worms=20 > were starting to effect the usable bandwidth and QoS =96 or at=20 > least that=20 > was the fear. Thus, I agree with their security=20 > implementations as the=20 > reasoning appears valid. >=20 > See this URL for the T-Mobile problem: > http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~ivancic/t-mobile=20 > > http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~ivancic/t-mobile/Letter_Customer_S ervice.pdf=20 =20 http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~ivancic/t-mobile/administrative_filtering.pdf= =20 =20 NATs breaks a lot of things. Security breaks the rest! J Will Ivancic _______________________________________________ Mip6 mailing list Mip6@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 14 05:28:57 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA09390 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 05:28:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DAmjX-00086M-8V; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 05:23:35 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DAmjV-00086H-W7 for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 05:23:34 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA08686 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 05:23:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DAmn7-0001my-8M for nemo@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 05:27:17 -0500 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (144.254.224.150) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2005 11:45:54 +0100 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Received: from xbh-ams-331.cisco.com (xbh-ams-331.cisco.com [144.254.231.71]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j2EAMsmI022682; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:23:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from xmb-ams-337.cisco.com ([144.254.231.82]) by xbh-ams-331.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:23:17 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [nemo] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative filtering Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:23:10 +0100 Message-ID: <7892795E1A87F04CADFCCF41FADD00FC9D307E@xmb-ams-337.emea.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [nemo] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative filtering Thread-Index: AcUn1Ym1a+ppNyUXR9q/TmUfmT2GiAAqU6ig From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" To: "Alexandru Petrescu" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Mar 2005 10:23:17.0679 (UTC) FILETIME=[D6A173F0:01C5287F] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: nemo , ivancic X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You might want to consider:=20 http://mobilenetworks.org/nemo/ietf56/slides/ietf56-nemo-ipv4traversal.p pt In particular, satellite systems require IPv4 traversal, and we found NAT traversal to be useful in several cases as well. For instance, we found cases where the customer had his NEMO HA within his IPv4 private network, the NAT being operated by the service provider. We also found some cellular provider doing NAT as well. In the last 2 years, we have been experimenting with our Doors solution on 3 continents over all forms of links, and whatever the theory is about all things that could be weird in NAT boxes, the practice was that we went through everything we tried... Pascal | -----Original Message----- | From: nemo-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:nemo-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of | Alexandru Petrescu | Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 3:03 PM | To: ivancic | Cc: nemo | Subject: Re: [nemo] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative | filtering |=20 | [I'm posting this here because I've followed the v6/v4 discussions here, | but I assume that any mip6 through v4 traversal would probably be done | better on the mip6 list] |=20 | I generally very much agree with the aspects of this email raising | awareness of the fact that NAT traversal is not easy to do, especially | because "NAT" is something very loosely defined and the actual boxes | linking a closed system (such as telecom provider, or enterprise net) to | the Internet are very often doing much more than just network-address | translation: address translation, port translation, filtering, proxying | and, above all this - periodic changes due to hardware upgrades, new | software deployment, new security policies, etc. |=20 | ivancic wrote: | [...] | > NOTE: Depending on the implementation, you may have to force UDP | > tunneling, because the address is not changing (CoA and actual | > address). Thus, there is no easy way to auto-sense that you are | > getting administratively filtered. I suspect this will break a lot of | > implementations for NAT traversal - as this really isn't NAT | > traversal, but "weak" firewall traversal. |=20 | This is a point that deserves attention I believe. Indeed, I think this | is not simply "NAT traversal" but more like "firewall traversal" | (whether that's weak or not - I don't know). And of course there is no | way to auto-sense you're filtered - any method of "auto-sensing" is | doomed to fail when being itself filtered out. |=20 | I wanted to say also that most telecom operators would allow an HTTP tcp | connection out through port 80 (after login to their network), through | some sort of local http proxy. This outbound http connection is | probably the most common denominator of what's let through the various | firewalls of various operators. Second best option may be email. |=20 | That said, relying on this channel (http or smtp) one could design a | protocol to cooperatively and non-intrusively "sense" through the | firewall (co: MH and HA) dynamically identify which are the open ports, | which protocols can pass through, etc. After this sensing one could set | up the respective UDP tunnel. |=20 | But, this may risk being interpreted as "port scanning" or | similar, which on the firewall end may some day be interpreted as a | "rogue" activity, at which point new filters may be put in place by the | firewall administrator. |=20 | I do not know to which extent having an RFC about firewall traversal for | mobility will stop any firewall administrator from filtering | whatever is currently considered "rogue" - that RFC's traffic in | occurence. (because if it were enough to release an RFC, then it would | have been sufficient to release an RFC saying "NAT is no good", people | would remove NATs because RFC says so, and thus there would be no need | of NAT traversal at all.) |=20 | Finally, on the other hand, at the NEMO meeting it was said that if | there's a particular scenario that needs this (NEMOv6 v4 traversal) then | the effort of issuing a WG item document may be worth the effort. |=20 | So, do we have a more detailed idea about this scenario? What are the | network providers considered? Do we address only the v6-thtough-v4 | aspects (BU with v4 CoA) or do we address the NAT traversal as well? |=20 | Just some thoughts... |=20 | Alex From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 14 06:26:55 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA16404 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:26:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DAngg-000242-Pp; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:24:42 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DAnge-00023u-Ig for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:24:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA16162 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate7.mot.com ([129.188.136.7]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DAnkF-0004c6-8b for nemo@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:28:24 -0500 Received: from az33exr03.mot.com (az33exr03.mot.com [10.64.251.233]) by motgate7.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate7) with ESMTP id j2EBEBvs024174; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 04:14:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com (zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com [10.161.201.8]) by az33exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j2EBOUuK017393; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 05:24:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from [10.161.201.117] (zfr01-2117.crm.mot.com [10.161.201.117]) by zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2639855025; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:24:22 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <42357460.9090204@motorola.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:24:16 +0100 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Subject: Re: [nemo] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative filtering References: <7892795E1A87F04CADFCCF41FADD00FC9D307E@xmb-ams-337.emea.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7892795E1A87F04CADFCCF41FADD00FC9D307E@xmb-ams-337.emea.cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigAAD3E7EE4087B1290BF24622" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: nemo , ivancic X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigAAD3E7EE4087B1290BF24622 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > In the last 2 years, we have been experimenting with our Doors > solution on 3 continents over all forms of links, and whatever the > theory is about all things that could be weird in NAT boxes, the > practice was that we went through everything we tried... Well, this is an optimistic message and I will gladly share this optimism. In our experience here, we had many difficulties "going through" when connecting to the operator Orange, with GPRS. This operator is present in many countries in Europe and we tested in three of them, same results. So I was curious whether you have any particular experience with Doors with this particular operator and with a normal (non-business) GPRS subscription. Thanks, Alex --------------enigAAD3E7EE4087B1290BF24622 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCNXRmMmC0w56zj54RAnRZAKD4PZf/gUjzewvqQVt+kWqLHIDNnQCg8NBW qN0WKfqH6khXHgRgxwbhazg= =Iih7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigAAD3E7EE4087B1290BF24622-- From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 14 10:11:13 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA10659 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DAr8o-0008RZ-VH; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:05:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DAr8l-0008RO-J0 for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:05:56 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA09840 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:05:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak.research.panasonic.com ([150.169.1.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DArCK-00063c-KU for nemo@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:09:40 -0500 Received: from KUMARW2 (dhcp85.Research.Panasonic.COM [150.169.1.85]) by oak.research.panasonic.com (1.1.1/1.1.1) with SMTP id j2EF5eRm002437 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:05:40 -0500 Message-ID: <001201c528a7$4c0c9670$5501a996@KUMARW2> From: "Brijesh Kumar" To: "nemo" References: <4231EC62.3050800@grc.nasa.gov> <42344800.5080002@motorola.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:05:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5287D.5F5FE3F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b088eb2e350d7ff39de2681b46d38a1 Subject: [nemo] Nemo IPv4 network Traversal X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5287D.5F5FE3F0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think people on the list will be interested in the enclosed paper, submitted to a conference recently by Jaehoon Jeong, Jungsoo Park and Hyoungjun Kim. This paper appears similar to the draft presented in the nemo group in the last IETF meeting by someone on the same subject ( http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/ietf62/nemo-ietf62-agenda.txt ). However, unlike the draft presented in IETF, this paper correctly uses the IPV6 format for the new IPv4 address of the mobile router and dynamically updating the information about tunnel endpoint between mobile router and home agent. This paper also proposes the use the router running home agent also become IPv6 transition tunnel endpoint for nemo, however, like the draft submitted to IETF, it does not discuss the long tern impact of this approach on over all IPv6 transition architecture. --bk ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C5287D.5F5FE3F0 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="vtc2004-fall-nemo-jaehoon.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vtc2004-fall-nemo-jaehoon.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 JVBERi0xLjMNJYCEiIyQlJicoKSorLC0uLzAxMjM0NTY3ODk6Ozw9Pj8DQ0xIDAgb2JqDTw8IC9D cm9wQm94DVsgMCAwIDU5NSA4NDINXSAvVGh1bWIgMzQgMCBSIC9NZWRpYUJveA1bIDAgMCA1OTUg ODQyDV0gL1JvdGF0ZSAwIC9SZXNvdXJjZXMgMiAwIFIgL1BhcmVudCA0NSAwIFIgL0NvbnRlbnRz IDMgMCBSIC9UeXBlIC9QYWdlDT4+DWVuZG9iag0yIDAgb2JqDTw8IC9Qcm9jU2V0DVsgL1BERiAv VGV4dCAvSW1hZ2VCIC9JbWFnZUMgL0ltYWdlSQ1dIC9FeHRHU3RhdGUNPDwgL0dTMSA3OSAwIFIg L0dTMiA4IDAgUg0+PiAvRm9udA08PCAvRjEgNTYgMCBSIC9GOCAyMCAwIFIgL0Y2IDE4IDAgUiAv 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for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:20:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA25066 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:20:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DAtIY-0003RD-RC for nemo@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:24:11 -0500 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (144.254.224.150) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2005 18:42:50 +0100 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Received: from xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-332.cisco.com [144.254.231.87]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j2EHJKmW003861; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:20:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from xmb-ams-337.cisco.com ([144.254.231.82]) by xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:20:08 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [nemo] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative filtering Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:20:08 +0100 Message-ID: <7892795E1A87F04CADFCCF41FADD00FC9D336B@xmb-ams-337.emea.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [nemo] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative filtering Thread-Index: AcUoiGknN1rMccPdQj6hYdqdPlgqdgAKI8Mw From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" To: "Alexandru Petrescu" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Mar 2005 17:20:08.0602 (UTC) FILETIME=[124D6FA0:01C528BA] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: nemo , ivancic X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually the first trial we ever did was with orange... and a timeport from Motorola :) Then we switch to SFR for some reasons. But that was more then 2 years ago. I'm not sure which agreement that was :(=20 Pascal | -----Original Message----- | From: Alexandru Petrescu [mailto:Alexandru.Petrescu@motorola.com] | Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 12:24 PM | To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) | Cc: nemo; ivancic | Subject: Re: [nemo] NAT traversal and cellular network administrative | filtering |=20 | Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: | > In the last 2 years, we have been experimenting with our Doors | > solution on 3 continents over all forms of links, and whatever the | > theory is about all things that could be weird in NAT boxes, the | > practice was that we went through everything we tried... |=20 | Well, this is an optimistic message and I will gladly share this optimism. |=20 | In our experience here, we had many difficulties "going through" when | connecting to the operator Orange, with GPRS. This operator is present | in many countries in Europe and we tested in three of them, same | results. So I was curious whether you have any particular experience | with Doors with this particular operator and with a normal | (non-business) GPRS subscription. |=20 | Thanks, |=20 | Alex From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 14 14:20:35 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09536 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:20:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DAv4T-0001Mb-9j; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:17:45 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DAv4Q-0001MV-SZ for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:17:43 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09250 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from alpha6.its.monash.edu.au ([130.194.1.25]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DAv84-0000RW-V1 for nemo@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:21:31 -0500 Received: from localhost ([130.194.13.87]) by vaxc.its.monash.edu.au (PMDF V6.1 #39306) with ESMTP id <01LLWRR5MPSW937C45@vaxc.its.monash.edu.au> for nemo@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:17:22 +1100 Received: from curly.its.monash.edu.au (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C95AB544; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:17:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from monash.edu.au (dollet.its.monash.edu.au [130.194.11.236]) by curly.its.monash.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BD34FB0D; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:17:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from [63.148.158.5] by mail-store-2.its.monash.edu.au (mshttpd); Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:17:22 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:17:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Greg Daley Subject: Re: [nemo] Nemo IPv4 network Traversal To: Brijesh Kumar Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cc: nemo X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Brijesh, The paper looks good and the packet formats are sane. There is a critical issue here with the lack of specified ESP protection on the binding signaling to the Home Agent. While there is good reason to believe that these mechanisms would work, the security considerations in either case need to be tackled early as well. Greg Daley ----- Original Message ----- From: Brijesh Kumar Date: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:05 pm Subject: [nemo] Nemo IPv4 network Traversal > I think people on the list will be interested in the enclosed > paper, > submitted to a conference recently by Jaehoon Jeong, Jungsoo Park > and > Hyoungjun Kim. > > This paper appears similar to the draft presented in the nemo > group in the > last IETF meeting by someone on the same subject ( > http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/ietf62/nemo-ietf62-agenda.txt ). > However, > unlike the draft presented in IETF, this paper correctly uses the > IPV6 > format for the new IPv4 address of the mobile router and > dynamically > updating the information about tunnel endpoint between mobile > router and > home agent. > > This paper also proposes the use the router running home agent also > become > IPv6 transition tunnel endpoint for nemo, however, like the draft > submitted > to IETF, it does not discuss the long tern impact of this approach > on over > all IPv6 transition architecture. > > --bk > > > > > > > > > > > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 16 06:39:45 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA07127 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:39:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBWoz-00006o-5s; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:36:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBWox-0008Rh-NU for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:36:15 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA06591 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:35:56 -0500 (EST) From: hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn Received: from [211.144.97.11] (helo=guanghua.sh.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBWsj-0005wG-7o for nemo@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:40:09 -0500 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:34:49 +0800 Message-ID: <719604C35A6FE2458D14695D0D239866461A01@master.guanghua.sh.cn> Thread-Topic: Seeking help for VMN BUs Thread-Index: AcUop3G6V3L3mx9hQRyGczX2xJKdZABdH1Ig To: X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [nemo] Seeking help for VMN BUs X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all NEMOers: According to RFC3963,there is no discussion on MN(VMN,LFN,LMN) = operation. In RFC3963 there are only discussion on Mobile Router = Operation(Section 5) and Home Agent Operation(Section 6). It seems that Basic NEMO need no modification on MN but I think it is = impossible. For 1) VMN=20 When one MN moved to the Mobile Network , it changes its attachment of = network and should have a topologically correct CoA . Then how CNs = outside the Mobile Network to communicate with him because CNs donot = know the new CoA. Maybe there also some other draft or similiar proposals talk about tis = question. If it is, is anyone can told me where to find? 2) LFN,LN There is similiar questions with minor difference(Maybe great). =20 =20 I am a newer of NEMO, need some help on my studying. I think for VMN = the process is as following: =20 1)MR move to--> Foreign Network--> get a CoA for MR--> Register with MR's HA, using prefix--> HA forward packets destinated to VMN to MR, then to VMN 2)MN move to--> Mobile Network--> get a Coa--> Home Register with VMN's HA, by traditional MIPv6--> HA gets the CoA of VMN 3)CN send packet to VMN--> packet is intercepted by VMN's HA--> forward the packet to VMN's CoA--> HA of MR find the frefix match to the prefix of mobile network,then = intercept the forwared packet and forward it to MR's CoA--> MR receive it, then send it to VMN. =20 My Question(MQ): =20 (MQ-1)I am not sure is the procedure above right? =20 I also have some other question about NEMO, any comments is = appreciated:) =20 (MQ-2)When the MR move to a new network, do the nodes in the mobile = network including(VMN,LFN,LFR,LMN) need to do a runumbering? =20 (MQ-3)If MQ-2's answer is "YES", then does VMN need to do a new BU with = its HA or other CNs will not know how to locate VMN? =20 Maybe my question is very naive but it absolutely hovering on me. I = know here are many experts of NEMO and is a wonderful place for me to = find the answers. Thousands of thanks in advance! =20 Yours sincerely Humphrey Gu From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 16 08:19:34 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA17929 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBXyv-0002BY-3q; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:50:37 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBXyp-0002BH-Ad for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:50:35 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14801 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:50:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate8.mot.com ([129.188.136.8]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBY2r-0001xl-H0 for nemo@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:54:41 -0500 Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate8.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate8) with ESMTP id j2GCqS2C008488; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:52:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com (zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com [10.161.201.8]) by il06exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j2GCpZOS013295; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:51:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from [10.161.201.117] (zfr01-2117.crm.mot.com [10.161.201.117]) by zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B8ED865980; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:50:13 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <42382B7B.60505@motorola.com> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:50:03 +0100 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn Subject: Re: [nemo] Seeking help for VMN BUs References: <719604C35A6FE2458D14695D0D239866461A01@master.guanghua.sh.cn> In-Reply-To: <719604C35A6FE2458D14695D0D239866461A01@master.guanghua.sh.cn> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigCCD2AA96ED480399F44039E3" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8de5f93cb2b4e3bee75302e9eacc33db Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigCCD2AA96ED480399F44039E3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Humphrey, is this a homework you're assigned? If yes, please try to do the homework properly. hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn wrote: > Hi all NEMOers: > According to RFC3963,there is no discussion on MN(VMN,LFN,LMN) > operation. In RFC3963 there are only discussion on Mobile Router > Operation(Section 5) and Home Agent Operation(Section 6). It seems > that Basic NEMO need no modification on MN but I think it is > impossible. For > 1) VMN > When one MN moved to the Mobile Network , it changes its attachment > of network and should have a topologically correct CoA . Then how CNs > outside the Mobile Network to communicate with him because CNs donot > know the new CoA. Yes, CN does not know the CoA of MN, but CN does know the HoA (Home Address) of MN, so CN continues sending packets to MN's HoA, that'll be intercepted by MN's HA (Home Agent) and forwarded to the correct CoA. This is basic MIP6 for MH operation, no NEMO difference. Of course, the paths are longer. > Maybe there also some other draft or similiar proposals talk about > tis question. If it is, is anyone can told me where to find? Maybe something in this draft, please ask its authors: http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/drafts/draft-watari-nemo-nested-cn-01.txt > 2) LFN,LN > There is similiar questions with minor difference(Maybe great). LFN does not implement MIP6 nor NEMO, by definition. LFN does not move out of the moving network. > I am a newer of NEMO, need some help on my studying. I think for VMN the process is as following: > > 1)MR move to--> > Foreign Network--> > get a CoA for MR--> > Register with MR's HA, using prefix--> > HA forward packets destinated to VMN to MR, then to VMN > 2)MN move to--> > Mobile Network--> > get a Coa--> > Home Register with VMN's HA, by traditional MIPv6--> > HA gets the CoA of VMN > 3)CN send packet to VMN--> > packet is intercepted by VMN's HA--> > forward the packet to VMN's CoA--> > HA of MR find the frefix match to the prefix of mobile network,then intercept the forwared packet and forward it to MR's CoA--> > MR receive it, then send it to VMN. > > My Question(MQ): > > (MQ-1)I am not sure is the procedure above right? Somehow it is right, why do you think it is not right? > (MQ-2)When the MR move to a new network, do the nodes in the mobile > network including(VMN,LFN,LFR,LMN) need to do a runumbering? No. > (MQ-3)If MQ-2's answer is "YES", then does VMN need to do a new BU > with its HA or other CNs will not know how to locate VMN? > > Maybe my question is very naive but it absolutely hovering on me. What are you going to do when you have the answers? Fill some questionnaire? Implement/code some stuff? Do a little demo with some mobility software? Alex --------------enigCCD2AA96ED480399F44039E3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCOCuFMmC0w56zj54RAku0AJ9WXc8sh3SK34xj9t9c4sUD8syuBgCgnNTI 8+Kku+00lFlsuRhBFl0Lxvc= =mQOE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigCCD2AA96ED480399F44039E3-- From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 16 19:21:24 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17115 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:21:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBiiS-0005Ab-CU; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:18:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBiiL-0005AP-Rp for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:18:18 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16972 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:18:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.69]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBimU-0005Uk-3R for nemo@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:22:30 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id j2H0m7i12757; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:48:07 -0800 X-mProtect: <200503170048> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from manisht.iprg.nokia.com (205.226.2.40, claiming to be "[205.226.2.40]") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd48mZJq; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:48:06 PST Message-ID: <4238CCA3.2030804@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:17:39 -0800 From: Vijay Devarapalli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040928 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn Subject: Re: [nemo] Seeking help for VMN BUs References: <719604C35A6FE2458D14695D0D239866461A01@master.guanghua.sh.cn> In-Reply-To: <719604C35A6FE2458D14695D0D239866461A01@master.guanghua.sh.cn> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello, RFC 3963 keeps mobility transparent to the nodes in the Mobile Network. the nodes in the mobile network always see the mobile network prefixes. not the prefixes from the visited network. it is possible for the nodes in the mobile network to be MIPv6 mobile nodes. that is allowed. Vijay hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn wrote: > Hi all NEMOers: > According to RFC3963,there is no discussion on MN(VMN,LFN,LMN) operation. In RFC3963 there are only discussion on Mobile Router Operation(Section 5) and Home Agent Operation(Section 6). > It seems that Basic NEMO need no modification on MN but I think it is impossible. For > 1) VMN > When one MN moved to the Mobile Network , it changes its attachment of network and should have a topologically correct CoA . Then how CNs outside the Mobile Network to communicate with him because CNs donot know the new CoA. > Maybe there also some other draft or similiar proposals talk about tis question. If it is, is anyone can told me where to find? > 2) LFN,LN > There is similiar questions with minor difference(Maybe great). > > > I am a newer of NEMO, need some help on my studying. I think for VMN the process is as following: > > 1)MR move to--> > Foreign Network--> > get a CoA for MR--> > Register with MR's HA, using prefix--> > HA forward packets destinated to VMN to MR, then to VMN > 2)MN move to--> > Mobile Network--> > get a Coa--> > Home Register with VMN's HA, by traditional MIPv6--> > HA gets the CoA of VMN > 3)CN send packet to VMN--> > packet is intercepted by VMN's HA--> > forward the packet to VMN's CoA--> > HA of MR find the frefix match to the prefix of mobile network,then intercept the forwared packet and forward it to MR's CoA--> > MR receive it, then send it to VMN. > > My Question(MQ): > > (MQ-1)I am not sure is the procedure above right? > > I also have some other question about NEMO, any comments is appreciated:) > > (MQ-2)When the MR move to a new network, do the nodes in the mobile network including(VMN,LFN,LFR,LMN) need to do a runumbering? > > (MQ-3)If MQ-2's answer is "YES", then does VMN need to do a new BU with its HA or other CNs will not know how to locate VMN? > > Maybe my question is very naive but it absolutely hovering on me. I know here are many experts of NEMO and is a wonderful place for me to find the answers. > Thousands of thanks in advance! > > Yours sincerely > Humphrey Gu > > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 17 00:46:50 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15365 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:46:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBno0-000765-D4; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:44:24 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBnnx-00075x-TN for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:44:22 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15254 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:44:08 -0500 (EST) From: hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn Received: from [211.144.97.11] (helo=guanghua.sh.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBnry-0003jD-Mm for nemo@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:48:31 -0500 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW25lbW9dIFNlZWtpbmcgaGVscCBmb3IgVk1OIEJVcw==?= Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:43:57 +0800 Message-ID: <719604C35A6FE2458D14695D0D239866461ABA@master.guanghua.sh.cn> Thread-Topic: [nemo] Seeking help for VMN BUs Thread-Index: AcUqhsjbXD3cO2/tSLSwHG6nKHL/MgAKu4Rg To: X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1a1bf7677bfe77d8af1ebe0e91045c5b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay; Thanks for your explanation I got to know that in RFC3963 nodes in = mobile network do nothing (they can be MIPv6 enabled or not) and all the = modifications are on HA (section 5) , MR (section 6) and DHAAD between = them (section 7). So, RFC 3963 do not discuss about the VMN, is my understanding = right? =20 If it is right, the IP address (I mean node identifier, not = location identifier, because the mobility is transparent for inner = nodes) assigned on nodes in mobile network will keep unchanged, all the = communication between inner nodes and CN are proxyed by MR, so the = mobile network turned in to a NAT-Sub-Network. The MR acts like a NAT = server. I mean bi-direction NAT. Can somebody give me some comments on this? Is my understanding = right? Humphrey Gu -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijayd@iprg.nokia.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2005=C4=EA3=D4=C217=C8=D5 8:18 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: =D1=D0=B7=A2 =B9=CB=BB=AA=C6=BD =B3=AD=CB=CD: nemo@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [nemo] Seeking help for VMN BUs hello, RFC 3963 keeps mobility transparent to the nodes in the Mobile Network. the nodes in the mobile network always see the mobile network prefixes. not the prefixes from the visited network. it is possible for the nodes in the mobile network to be MIPv6 mobile nodes. that is allowed. Vijay hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn wrote: > Hi all NEMOers: > According to RFC3963,there is no discussion on MN(VMN,LFN,LMN) = operation. In RFC3963 there are only discussion on Mobile Router = Operation(Section 5) and Home Agent Operation(Section 6). > It seems that Basic NEMO need no modification on MN but I think it is = impossible. For > 1) VMN=20 > When one MN moved to the Mobile Network , it changes its attachment = of network and should have a topologically correct CoA . Then how CNs = outside the Mobile Network to communicate with him because CNs donot = know the new CoA. > Maybe there also some other draft or similiar proposals talk about = tis question. If it is, is anyone can told me where to find? > 2) LFN,LN > There is similiar questions with minor difference(Maybe great). > =20 > =20 > I am a newer of NEMO, need some help on my studying. I think for VMN = the process is as following: > =20 > 1)MR move to--> > Foreign Network--> > get a CoA for MR--> > Register with MR's HA, using prefix--> > HA forward packets destinated to VMN to MR, then to VMN > 2)MN move to--> > Mobile Network--> > get a Coa--> > Home Register with VMN's HA, by traditional MIPv6--> > HA gets the CoA of VMN > 3)CN send packet to VMN--> > packet is intercepted by VMN's HA--> > forward the packet to VMN's CoA--> > HA of MR find the frefix match to the prefix of mobile = network,then intercept the forwared packet and forward it to MR's CoA--> > MR receive it, then send it to VMN. > =20 > My Question(MQ): > =20 > (MQ-1)I am not sure is the procedure above right? > =20 > I also have some other question about NEMO, any comments is = appreciated:) > =20 > (MQ-2)When the MR move to a new network, do the nodes in the mobile = network including(VMN,LFN,LFR,LMN) need to do a runumbering? > =20 > (MQ-3)If MQ-2's answer is "YES", then does VMN need to do a new BU = with its HA or other CNs will not know how to locate VMN? > =20 > Maybe my question is very naive but it absolutely hovering on me. I = know here are many experts of NEMO and is a wonderful place for me to = find the answers. > Thousands of thanks in advance! > =20 > Yours sincerely > Humphrey Gu >=20 >=20 From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 17 03:47:00 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA25020 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBqeB-00027v-Kq; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:46:27 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBqe8-00027Q-1I for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:46:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA24982 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:46:17 -0500 (EST) From: hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn Received: from [211.144.97.11] (helo=guanghua.sh.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBqiG-00039S-1E for nemo@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:50:40 -0500 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW25lbW9dIFNlZWtpbmcgaGVscCBmb3IgVk1OIEJVcw==?= Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:45:04 +0800 Message-ID: <719604C35A6FE2458D14695D0D239866461AFD@master.guanghua.sh.cn> Thread-Topic: [nemo] Seeking help for VMN BUs Thread-Index: AcUqhsjbXD3cO2/tSLSwHG6nKHL/MgARGznw To: X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay; I just read about the draft=20 Inter Home Agents Protocol (HAHA) draft-wakikawa-mip6-nemo-haha-01.txt it is expired:( Do you all have some other updated version? I find that HAHA is matched the scenario of Multi-homing (Multi = HA). But in HAHA-01 I do not find some path selection mechanism, do you = consider it before? Have you got the idea about making the HA hierarchical? In = different region has different grade. HA synchronization can been = limited in one region and divides the BU cache into separate parts. When = the closest HA for CN do not hit the CoA in its BU cache, it will do a = Roaming based on the HA list it obtain by HAHA HA list Management.=20 Maybe it is useful for big ISP for large scale deployment. It is usable = for centered but distributed AAA by hierarchical HA mechanism. BTW, do you think it is feasible here to use Anycast of IPv6 for = Closest HA selection (path selection) ? Yours=20 Humphrey Gu -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijayd@iprg.nokia.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2005=C4=EA3=D4=C217=C8=D5 8:18 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: =D1=D0=B7=A2 =B9=CB=BB=AA=C6=BD =B3=AD=CB=CD: nemo@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [nemo] Seeking help for VMN BUs hello, RFC 3963 keeps mobility transparent to the nodes in the Mobile Network. the nodes in the mobile network always see the mobile network prefixes. not the prefixes from the visited network. it is possible for the nodes in the mobile network to be MIPv6 mobile nodes. that is allowed. Vijay hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn wrote: > Hi all NEMOers: > According to RFC3963,there is no discussion on MN(VMN,LFN,LMN) = operation. In RFC3963 there are only discussion on Mobile Router = Operation(Section 5) and Home Agent Operation(Section 6). > It seems that Basic NEMO need no modification on MN but I think it is = impossible. For > 1) VMN=20 > When one MN moved to the Mobile Network , it changes its attachment = of network and should have a topologically correct CoA . Then how CNs = outside the Mobile Network to communicate with him because CNs donot = know the new CoA. > Maybe there also some other draft or similiar proposals talk about = tis question. If it is, is anyone can told me where to find? > 2) LFN,LN > There is similiar questions with minor difference(Maybe great). > =20 > =20 > I am a newer of NEMO, need some help on my studying. I think for VMN = the process is as following: > =20 > 1)MR move to--> > Foreign Network--> > get a CoA for MR--> > Register with MR's HA, using prefix--> > HA forward packets destinated to VMN to MR, then to VMN > 2)MN move to--> > Mobile Network--> > get a Coa--> > Home Register with VMN's HA, by traditional MIPv6--> > HA gets the CoA of VMN > 3)CN send packet to VMN--> > packet is intercepted by VMN's HA--> > forward the packet to VMN's CoA--> > HA of MR find the frefix match to the prefix of mobile = network,then intercept the forwared packet and forward it to MR's CoA--> > MR receive it, then send it to VMN. > =20 > My Question(MQ): > =20 > (MQ-1)I am not sure is the procedure above right? > =20 > I also have some other question about NEMO, any comments is = appreciated:) > =20 > (MQ-2)When the MR move to a new network, do the nodes in the mobile = network including(VMN,LFN,LFR,LMN) need to do a runumbering? > =20 > (MQ-3)If MQ-2's answer is "YES", then does VMN need to do a new BU = with its HA or other CNs will not know how to locate VMN? > =20 > Maybe my question is very naive but it absolutely hovering on me. I = know here are many experts of NEMO and is a wonderful place for me to = find the answers. > Thousands of thanks in advance! > =20 > Yours sincerely > Humphrey Gu >=20 >=20 From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 17 05:38:21 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA06912 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:38:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBsLp-0007pl-AZ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:35:37 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBsLm-0007pb-1v for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:35:34 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA06495 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.140]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBsPz-0008GO-NW for nemo@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:39:56 -0500 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (144.254.224.150) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2005 11:35:25 +0100 Received: from xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-332.cisco.com [144.254.231.87]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j2HAZ4lw016664; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:35:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from xmb-ams-337.cisco.com ([144.254.231.82]) by xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:35:06 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [nemo] Seeking help for VMN BUs Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:35:01 +0100 Message-ID: <7892795E1A87F04CADFCCF41FADD00FCA192A4@xmb-ams-337.emea.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [nemo] Seeking help for VMN BUs Thread-Index: AcUqhsjbXD3cO2/tSLSwHG6nKHL/MgARGznwAARkPoA= From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Mar 2005 10:35:06.0481 (UTC) FILETIME=[FC594E10:01C52ADC] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68ba2b07ef271dba6ee42a93832cfa4c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: nemo@ietf.org X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Humphrey Seems that your question is related to the global haha part of haha: http://mobilenetworks.org/nemo/drafts/draft-thubert-nemo-global-haha-00.t= xt Pascal | -----Original Message----- | From: nemo-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:nemo-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of | hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn | Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 9:45 AM | To: vijayd@iprg.nokia.com | Cc: nemo@ietf.org | Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [nemo] Seeking help for VMN BUs |=20 | Hi Vijay; | I just read about the draft | Inter Home Agents Protocol (HAHA) | draft-wakikawa-mip6-nemo-haha-01.txt | it is expired:( | Do you all have some other updated version? |=20 | I find that HAHA is matched the scenario of Multi-homing (Multi = HA). | But in HAHA-01 I do not find some path selection mechanism, do you | consider it before? |=20 | Have you got the idea about making the HA hierarchical? In = different | region has different grade. HA synchronization can been limited in one | region and divides the BU cache into separate parts. When the closest = HA | for CN do not hit the CoA in its BU cache, it will do a Roaming based = on | the HA list it obtain by HAHA HA list Management. | Maybe it is useful for big ISP for large scale deployment. It is | usable for centered but distributed AAA by hierarchical HA mechanism. | BTW, do you think it is feasible here to use Anycast of IPv6 for | Closest HA selection (path selection) ? |=20 | Yours | Humphrey Gu |=20 | -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- | =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijayd@iprg.nokia.com] | =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2005=C4=EA3=D4=C217=C8=D5 8:18 | =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: =D1=D0=B7=A2 =B9=CB=BB=AA=C6=BD | =B3=AD=CB=CD: nemo@ietf.org | =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [nemo] Seeking help for VMN BUs |=20 | hello, |=20 | RFC 3963 keeps mobility transparent to the nodes in the | Mobile Network. the nodes in the mobile network always | see the mobile network prefixes. not the prefixes from | the visited network. |=20 | it is possible for the nodes in the mobile network to be | MIPv6 mobile nodes. that is allowed. |=20 | Vijay |=20 | hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn wrote: | > Hi all NEMOers: | > According to RFC3963,there is no discussion on MN(VMN,LFN,LMN) | operation. In RFC3963 there are only discussion on Mobile Router | Operation(Section 5) and Home Agent Operation(Section 6). | > It seems that Basic NEMO need no modification on MN but I think it = is | impossible. For | > 1) VMN | > When one MN moved to the Mobile Network , it changes its attachment = of | network and should have a topologically correct CoA . Then how CNs = outside | the Mobile Network to communicate with him because CNs donot know the = new | CoA. | > Maybe there also some other draft or similiar proposals talk about = tis | question. If it is, is anyone can told me where to find? | > 2) LFN,LN | > There is similiar questions with minor difference(Maybe great). | > | > | > I am a newer of NEMO, need some help on my studying. I think for = VMN | the process is as following: | > | > 1)MR move to--> | > Foreign Network--> | > get a CoA for MR--> | > Register with MR's HA, using prefix--> | > HA forward packets destinated to VMN to MR, then | to VMN | > 2)MN move to--> | > Mobile Network--> | > get a Coa--> | > Home Register with VMN's HA, by traditional MIPv6--> | > HA gets the CoA of VMN | > 3)CN send packet to VMN--> | > packet is intercepted by VMN's HA--> | > forward the packet to VMN's CoA--> | > HA of MR find the frefix match to the prefix of mobile | network,then intercept the forwared packet and forward it to MR's = CoA--> | > MR receive it, then send it to VMN. | > | > My Question(MQ): | > | > (MQ-1)I am not sure is the procedure above right? | > | > I also have some other question about NEMO, any comments is | appreciated:) | > | > (MQ-2)When the MR move to a new network, do the nodes in the mobile | network including(VMN,LFN,LFR,LMN) need to do a runumbering? | > | > (MQ-3)If MQ-2's answer is "YES", then does VMN need to do a new BU = with | its HA or other CNs will not know how to locate VMN? | > | > Maybe my question is very naive but it absolutely hovering on me. I | know here are many experts of NEMO and is a wonderful place for me to = find | the answers. | > Thousands of thanks in advance! | > | > Yours sincerely | > Humphrey Gu | > | > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 17 06:05:40 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA09531 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:05:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBsmi-0004bb-Q7; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:03:24 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DBsld-0004Sk-7L for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:02:17 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA09269 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:02:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate2.mot.com ([144.189.100.101]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DBspq-0000wB-08 for nemo@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:06:39 -0500 Received: from az33exr03.mot.com (az33exr03.mot.com [10.64.251.233]) by motgate2.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate2) with ESMTP id j2HB9fLr022404; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:09:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com (zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com [10.161.201.8]) by az33exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j2HB2Eku027587; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:02:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from [10.161.201.117] (zfr01-2117.crm.mot.com [10.161.201.117]) by zfr01srv02.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27E9D865980; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:02:00 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <423963A2.4030604@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:01:54 +0100 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn Subject: Re: =?GB2312?B?tPC4tDogW25lbW9dIFNlZWtpbmcgaGVscCBmb3IgVk1OIEJVcw==?= References: <719604C35A6FE2458D14695D0D239866461ABA@master.guanghua.sh.cn> In-Reply-To: <719604C35A6FE2458D14695D0D239866461ABA@master.guanghua.sh.cn> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigFD60027111964727993ED146" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: nemo@ietf.org, vijayd@iprg.nokia.com X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigFD60027111964727993ED146 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn wrote: > Hi Vijay; Thanks for your explanation I got to know that in RFC3963 > nodes in mobile network do nothing (they can be MIPv6 enabled or not) > and all the modifications are on HA (section 5) , MR (section 6) and > DHAAD between them (section 7). So, RFC 3963 do not discuss about > the VMN, is my understanding right? Yes, "VMN" is more like a concept of a MN that visits the moving network and that usually has another HA than the MR. VMN is usually belonging to a different administrative domain than MR. VMN implements Mobile IPv6 MN, no other need to specify anything for it, unless the RO context is involved. It is "visiting" because its HA is not in the moving network - never. VMN's HA is more probable to be different than MR's HA, and less probable to be MR's HA. > If it is right, the IP address (I mean node identifier, not location > identifier, because the mobility is transparent for inner nodes) > assigned on nodes in mobile network will keep unchanged, all the > communication between inner nodes and CN are proxyed by MR, Yes, "proxied", hmmm, maybe "forwarded" better. MR does not do "proxy" ND and MR is not required to run any application-level proxy. > so the mobile network turned in to a NAT-Sub-Network. No, there's currently no NAT for v6. MR does tunneling instead of NAT. Alex --------------enigFD60027111964727993ED146 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCOWOoMmC0w56zj54RAqU9AKDetUqWTaLHIK5gSP8d1ZIfx4jXXgCg1r18 YEApychSO1d7bNRxqXmmbJI= =RlGq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigFD60027111964727993ED146-- From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 17 21:37:30 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA16870 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:37:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DC7Lo-0004Eb-Nh; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:36:36 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DC7Li-0004EW-R9 for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:36:35 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA16772 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from shaku.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.143.49]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DC7Pz-0005Ul-Mx for nemo@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:40:59 -0500 Received: from airmax.sfc.wide.ad.jp.sfc.wide.ad.jp (airmax.sfc.wide.ad.jp [203.178.143.74]) (authenticated bits=0) by shaku.sfc.wide.ad.jp (8.12.10/8.12.0) with ESMTP id j2I2ZtFj011953; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:36:00 +0900 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:50:49 +0900 Message-ID: From: Ryuji Wakikawa To: hpgu@guanghua.sh.cn Subject: Re: =?GB2312?B?tPC4tDo=?= [nemo] Seeking help for VMN BUs In-Reply-To: <719604C35A6FE2458D14695D0D239866461AFD@master.guanghua.sh.cn> References: <719604C35A6FE2458D14695D0D239866461AFD@master.guanghua.sh.cn> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.1 (Watching The Wheels) SEMI/1.14.5 (Awara-Onsen) FLIM/1.14.5 (Demachiyanagi) APEL/10.6 Emacs/21.3 (i386--freebsd) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: c83ccb5cc10e751496398f1233ca9c3a Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Cc: nemo@ietf.org, vijayd@iprg.nokia.com X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8gDQoNCldlIG5vdyBoYXZlIHR3byBuZXcgZG9jdW1lbnRzIGZvciBIQUhBLiANCmRyYWZ0 LXRodWJlcnQtbmVtby1nbG9iYWwtaGFoYS0wMC50eHQgIGFuZCBkcmFmdC13YWtpa2F3YS1taXA2 LW5lbW8taGFoYS1zcGVjLTAwLnR4dC4NCg0KVGhlIGRyYWZ0LXRodWJlcnQgbWF5IGJlIG1hdGNo ZWhkIGZvciB5b3VyIHF1ZXN0aW9ucy4NCk91ciBjb25jZXB0IGlzIHNpbWlsYXIgdG8gYW55Y2Fz 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dHMgb2YgTkVNTyBhbmQgaXMgYSB3b25kZXJmdWwgcGxhY2UgZm9yIG1lIHRvIGZpbmQgdGhlIGFu c3dlcnMuDQo+ID4gIFRob3VzYW5kcyBvZiB0aGFua3MgaW4gYWR2YW5jZSENCj4gPiAgDQo+ID4g IFlvdXJzIHNpbmNlcmVseQ0KPiA+ICBIdW1waHJleSBHdQ0KPiA+IA0KPiA+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+ IA0K From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 18 05:30:22 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA17647 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:30:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DCEgU-0006Sx-Pa; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:26:26 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DCEgS-0006Sp-6B for nemo@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:26:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA17259 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw5.vtt.fi ([130.188.1.19]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DCEkr-0007QT-G8 for nemo@ietf.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:30:58 -0500 Received: from elemail.ele.vtt.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw5.vtt.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2IAQBes002229 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:26:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from OULKV10357.vtt.fi (OULKV10357.ad.vtt.fi [130.188.92.214]) by elemail.ele.vtt.fi (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA11128 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:26:10 +0200 (EET) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050318121551.023b82e8@elemail.ele.vtt.fi> X-Sender: elepva@elemail.ele.vtt.fi X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:26:10 +0200 To: nemo@ietf.org From: Pekka =?iso-8859-1?Q?V=E4litalo?= Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Subject: [nemo] New draft X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Hi, A new draft about usage of multiple care-of addresses in NEMO support is available. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-valitalo-nemo-multihoming-00.txt Abstract: This draft describes, how NEMO support works with multiple care-of addresses, in a multihomed mobile network, when there exists one home agent, one mobile router, and one or more mobile network prefixes. Solution to the problem, how to register multiple care-of addresses bound to a single home address in a NEMO support, is proposed. Best Regards, Pekka Valitalo VTT Electronics Kaitovayla 1 90571 Oulu Finland E-Mail: pekka.valitalo@vtt.fi From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 18 16:08:48 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA04174 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:08:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DCOFG-0002J7-DS; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:38:58 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DCOFC-0002IF-69; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:38:54 -0500 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24612; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:38:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200503182038.PAA24612@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:38:51 -0500 Cc: nemo@ietf.org Subject: [nemo] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-nemo-home-network-models-03.txt X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Mobility Working Group of the IETF. Title : NEMO Home Network models Author(s) : P. Thubert, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-nemo-home-network-models-03.txt Pages : 24 Date : 2005-3-18 This paper documents some usage patterns and the associated issues when deploying a Home Network for NEMO-enabled Mobile Routers, conforming the NEMO Basic Support draft [8]. The aim here is specifically to provide some examples of organization of the Home Network, as they were discussed in NEMO related mailing lists. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-home-network-models-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. 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Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-3-18153926.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-home-network-models-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-nemo-home-network-models-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-3-18153926.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From IKBRKJUJ@hotmail.com Sun Mar 20 15:47:47 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20123; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:47:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from igld-80-230-149-109.inter.net.il ([80.230.149.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DD7Pi-0000wt-92; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:52:54 -0500 Received: from [180.74.230.160] (helo=..dearriba.com) by smtp2.cistron.nl with esmtp ( 3.35 #1 ()) id 389LFL-0057PT-15 Message-ID: <19944293144732.R37408@.noc..gr> Sender: freeradius-devel-IKBRKJUJ@hotmail.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.1 Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:50:41 +0500 From: "Bobby Wolf" To: mipshop@ietf.org Cc: mipshop-admin@ietf.org, mipshop-web-archive@ietf.org, mmusic@ietf.org, mmusic-admin@ietf.org, mmusic-request@ietf.org, nemo@ietf.org, nemo-admin@ietf.org, nemo-archive@ietf.org, nemo-request@ietf.org, nemo-web-archive@ietf.org Subject: Everyone Need This Mipshop X-Spam-Score: 7.4 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Biggest stores of on'line pharmacies. 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N0-re m0val are re'qui-red From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 30 17:42:19 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA04071 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:42:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGlqG-0008A8-R5; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:39:16 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGlqB-00089H-HX; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:39:15 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03774; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com ([64.102.122.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DGlxB-0001F8-HW; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:46:25 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (64.102.124.12) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Mar 2005 17:39:03 -0500 Received: from irp-view8.cisco.com (irp-view8.cisco.com [171.70.65.145]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j2UMcp1k029110; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:38:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:38:46 -0800 (PST) From: Sri Gundavelli To: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com In-Reply-To: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> Message-ID: References: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Hi Raj, In the last IETF nemo meeting, we raised some issues on the approach chosen by this draft. We are not convinced that the draft has explored and narrowed down on the most common v4 traversal scenarios. The basic assumption of the draft that the v6 Home Agent's functionality is collapsed in to the transition gateway is not valid and just addresses one scenario. The requirement the draft imposes on having a V4 network terminating on the v6 home agent is probably not acceptible. Also, the draft's claim that they are avoiding one extra encap layer is not true, the moment you move the transition gateway from the home agent, indeed an extra encap layer is needed. There were some other proposals for solving this problem and one being "draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal-01.txt", we should look at this work as well. Before we agree on a solution, we should atleast semantically agree on the problem statement and the scope. I remember you words, we should not boil the ocean in the process, Agreed ! But, atleast we should have some amount of discussions on the problem scope. My 2c. Regards Sri On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com wrote: > > One of the major barriers to the deployment of Mobile IPv6 today is > the fact that most access networks are IPv4 only. A number of hosts > are already dual-stack capable. While Mobile IPv6 works well in IPv6 > networks, it is essential that IPv6 mobility service continue to work > even when the mobile host is attached to an IPv4 network. The same > applies to a NEMO mobile router as well. > > A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: > 1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 > 2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 > While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, > there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would > address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single > sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need > to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in > and attached to an IPv4 access network." > It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the > problem immediately. > > The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6 > mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access > network in a simple manner. > It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs > MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have > reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at > the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. > > The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there > is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards > track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. > > If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG > item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt > > Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: > For [ ] > Against [ ] > > > - MIP6 and NEMO WG chairs > > > _______________________________________________ > Mip6 mailing list > Mip6@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 30 18:15:35 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08642 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGmNz-0000Pp-Px; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:14:07 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGmNx-0000N3-09; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:14:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08491; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:14:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.69]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DGmUx-0002D1-4E; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:21:19 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id j2UNhZ817947; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:43:35 -0800 X-mProtect: <200503302343> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from mvdhcp14160.americas.nokia.com (172.18.141.60, claiming to be "[127.0.0.1]") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdaWjDT4; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:43:33 PST Message-ID: <424B32A4.9040408@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:13:40 -0800 From: Vijay Devarapalli User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sri Gundavelli References: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a8a20a483a84f747e56475e290ee868e Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sri, Sri Gundavelli wrote: > Hi Raj, > In the last IETF nemo meeting, we raised some > issues on the approach chosen by this draft. We are > not convinced that the draft has explored and narrowed > down on the most common v4 traversal scenarios. The > basic assumption of the draft that the v6 Home Agent's > functionality is collapsed in to the transition gateway > is not valid and just addresses one scenario. The > requirement the draft imposes on having a V4 network > terminating on the v6 home agent is probably not > acceptible. if I understood you right, your concern is about how to make an IPv6 HA with an IPv4 interface accesible through the IPv4 Internet. right? > Also, the draft's claim that they are > avoiding one extra encap layer is not true, the moment > you move the transition gateway from the home agent, > indeed an extra encap layer is needed. we do want to keep it to just one level of encapsulation. Vijay > > There were some other proposals for solving this problem > and one being "draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal-01.txt", > we should look at this work as well. Before we agree on > a solution, we should atleast semantically agree on the > problem statement and the scope. I remember you words, > we should not boil the ocean in the process, Agreed ! > But, atleast we should have some amount of discussions on > the problem scope. My 2c. > > Regards > Sri > > > > > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com wrote: > > >>One of the major barriers to the deployment of Mobile IPv6 today is >>the fact that most access networks are IPv4 only. A number of hosts >>are already dual-stack capable. While Mobile IPv6 works well in IPv6 >>networks, it is essential that IPv6 mobility service continue to work >>even when the mobile host is attached to an IPv4 network. The same >>applies to a NEMO mobile router as well. >> >>A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: >>1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 >>2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 >>While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, >>there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would >>address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single >>sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need >>to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in >>and attached to an IPv4 access network." >>It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the >>problem immediately. >> >>The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6 >>mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access >>network in a simple manner. >>It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs >>MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have >>reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at >>the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. >> >>The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there >>is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards >>track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. >> >>If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG >>item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt >> >>Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: >> For [ ] >> Against [ ] >> >> >>- MIP6 and NEMO WG chairs >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Mip6 mailing list >>Mip6@ietf.org >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Mip6 mailing list > Mip6@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 30 18:29:56 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10211 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGmb6-0003pF-Eq; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:27:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGmb4-0003oU-Ek; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:27:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09848; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:27:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DGmi4-0002Sp-Ql; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:34:53 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (64.102.124.13) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Mar 2005 18:47:37 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.91,136,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="42560579:sNHT30631260" Received: from irp-view8.cisco.com (irp-view8.cisco.com [171.70.65.145]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j2UNRQjJ016730; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:27:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:27:26 -0800 (PST) From: Sri Gundavelli To: Vijay Devarapalli In-Reply-To: <424B32A4.9040408@iprg.nokia.com> Message-ID: References: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> <424B32A4.9040408@iprg.nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Hi Vijay, On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Vijay Devarapalli wrote: > Sri, > > Sri Gundavelli wrote: > > Hi Raj, > > In the last IETF nemo meeting, we raised some > > issues on the approach chosen by this draft. We are > > not convinced that the draft has explored and narrowed > > down on the most common v4 traversal scenarios. The > > basic assumption of the draft that the v6 Home Agent's > > functionality is collapsed in to the transition gateway > > is not valid and just addresses one scenario. The > > requirement the draft imposes on having a V4 network > > terminating on the v6 home agent is probably not > > acceptible. > > if I understood you right, your concern is about how to make > an IPv6 HA with an IPv4 interface accesible through the IPv4 > Internet. right? The question is not about configuring a v4 address on the interface of v6 home agent, it about the termination point of the v4 network and the placement of a v6 home agent. You cannot expect the v6 home agent and the transition gateway service to be co-located. The point is that we should identify the practical deployment sceanarios and go from there. > > > Also, the draft's claim that they are > > avoiding one extra encap layer is not true, the moment > > you move the transition gateway from the home agent, > > indeed an extra encap layer is needed. > > we do want to keep it to just one level of encapsulation. > Other way to say is we would not an extra encap layer, when the home agent and the transition gateway functions are spread out. > Vijay > > > > > There were some other proposals for solving this problem > > and one being "draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal-01.txt", > > we should look at this work as well. Before we agree on > > a solution, we should atleast semantically agree on the > > problem statement and the scope. I remember you words, > > we should not boil the ocean in the process, Agreed ! > > But, atleast we should have some amount of discussions on > > the problem scope. My 2c. > > > > Regards > > Sri > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com wrote: > > > > > >>One of the major barriers to the deployment of Mobile IPv6 today is > >>the fact that most access networks are IPv4 only. A number of hosts > >>are already dual-stack capable. While Mobile IPv6 works well in IPv6 > >>networks, it is essential that IPv6 mobility service continue to work > >>even when the mobile host is attached to an IPv4 network. The same > >>applies to a NEMO mobile router as well. > >> > >>A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: > >>1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 > >>2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 > >>While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, > >>there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would > >>address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single > >>sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need > >>to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in > >>and attached to an IPv4 access network." > >>It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the > >>problem immediately. > >> > >>The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6 > >>mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access > >>network in a simple manner. > >>It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs > >>MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have > >>reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at > >>the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. > >> > >>The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there > >>is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards > >>track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. > >> > >>If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG > >>item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt > >> > >>Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: > >> For [ ] > >> Against [ ] > >> > >> > >>- MIP6 and NEMO WG chairs > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Mip6 mailing list > >>Mip6@ietf.org > >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mip6 mailing list > > Mip6@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 30 19:17:35 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13504 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGnLR-00062J-QY; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:15:33 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGiwf-00077q-9f; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:33:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02038; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:33:39 -0500 (EST) From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Received: from mgw-x3.nokia.com ([131.228.20.26]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DGj3d-0000Iu-7U; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:40:53 -0500 Received: from esdks002.ntc.nokia.com (esdks002.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.121]) by mgw-x3.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j2UJXbo01199; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:33:37 +0300 (EET DST) X-Scanned: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:33:34 +0300 Nokia Message Protector V1.3.34 2004121512 - RELEASE Received: (from root@localhost) by esdks002.ntc.nokia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) id j2UJXYEv029896; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:33:34 +0300 Received: from mgw-int1.ntc.nokia.com (172.21.143.96) by esdks002.ntc.nokia.com 006N0OVn; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:33:33 EEST Received: from daebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (daebh001.americas.nokia.com [10.241.35.121]) by mgw-int1.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j2UJXVM18487; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:33:31 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.241.35.113]) by daebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:33:27 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:33:19 -0600 Message-ID: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> Thread-Topic: Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document Thread-Index: AcU1X1N98uBHQOYSR/WoaWzQrwx+tA== To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Mar 2005 19:33:27.0950 (UTC) FILETIME=[58E512E0:01C5355F] X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:15:31 -0500 Subject: [nemo] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the major barriers to the deployment of Mobile IPv6 today is the fact that most access networks are IPv4 only. A number of hosts are already dual-stack capable. While Mobile IPv6 works well in IPv6 networks, it is essential that IPv6 mobility service continue to work even when the mobile host is attached to an IPv4 network. The same applies to a NEMO mobile router as well.=20 A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs:=20 1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in and attached to an IPv4 access network." It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the problem immediately.=20 The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6=20 mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access network in a simple manner.=20 It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62.=20 The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs.=20 If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt=20 Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: For [ ] Against [ ] - MIP6 and NEMO WG chairs From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 30 21:06:17 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA23703 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:06:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGp1N-0003ED-Rl; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:02:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGp0q-0003C2-O7; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:02:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA23282; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:02:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak.research.panasonic.com ([150.169.1.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DGp7q-0005UR-7J; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:09:40 -0500 Received: from redwood.research.panasonic.com (redwood.research.panasonic.com [150.169.3.3]) by oak.research.panasonic.com (1.1.1/1.1.1) with SMTP id j2V218Lw006827; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:01:08 -0500 Received: from redwood.research.panasonic.com (redwood.research.panasonic.com [150.169.3.3]) by testing.research.panasonic.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1EA63C815F; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from pintlmail.MITL.Research.Panasonic.COM (pintlmail.mitl.research.panasonic.com [150.169.1.62])by redwood.research.panasonic.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C69F23C8157; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [69.248.17.64] by pintlmail.MITL.Research.Panasonic.COM(mshttpd); Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:01:07 -0500 From: Brijesh Kumar To: Sri Gundavelli Message-ID: <5e80e5a22c.5a22c5e80e@pintlmail.MITL.Research.Panasonic.COM> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:01:07 -0500 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.09 (built Jan 7 2003) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on makingIDdraft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-imss-version: 2.8 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scores: Clean:99.90000 C:18 M:1 S:5 R:5 X-imss-settings: Baseline:1 C:1 M:1 S:1 R:1 (0.0000 0.0000) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a8a20a483a84f747e56475e290ee868e Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Raj: I too would support Sri's excellent analysis. I am very surprised to see this consensus mail, given that during the last IETF meeting, several people had raised the concerns similar to what Sri has described in his mail regarding that draft. Not clear what has changed since then. --bk ----- Original Message ----- From: Sri Gundavelli Date: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:38 pm Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making IDdraft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document > Hi Raj, > In the last IETF nemo meeting, we raised some > issues on the approach chosen by this draft. We are > not convinced that the draft has explored and narrowed > down on the most common v4 traversal scenarios. The > basic assumption of the draft that the v6 Home Agent's > functionality is collapsed in to the transition gateway > is not valid and just addresses one scenario. The > requirement the draft imposes on having a V4 network > terminating on the v6 home agent is probably not > acceptible. Also, the draft's claim that they are > avoiding one extra encap layer is not true, the moment > you move the transition gateway from the home agent, > indeed an extra encap layer is needed. > > There were some other proposals for solving this problem > and one being "draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal-01.txt", > we should look at this work as well. Before we agree on > a solution, we should atleast semantically agree on the > problem statement and the scope. I remember you words, > we should not boil the ocean in the process, Agreed ! > But, atleast we should have some amount of discussions on > the problem scope. My 2c. > > Regards > Sri > > > > > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com wrote: > > > > > One of the major barriers to the deployment of Mobile IPv6 today is > > the fact that most access networks are IPv4 only. A number of hosts > > are already dual-stack capable. While Mobile IPv6 works well in IPv6 > > networks, it is essential that IPv6 mobility service continue to > work> even when the mobile host is attached to an IPv4 network. > The same > > applies to a NEMO mobile router as well. > > > > A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: > > 1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 > > 2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 > > While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, > > there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would > > address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single > > sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) > need> to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when > roaming in > > and attached to an IPv4 access network." > > It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the > > problem immediately. > > > > The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a > MIPv6> mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 > only access > > network in a simple manner. > > It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the > IETFs> MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group > chairs have > > reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been > presented at > > the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. > > > > The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there > > is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards > > track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. > > > > If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a > dual WG > > item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt > > > > Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: > > For [ ] > > Against [ ] > > > > > > - MIP6 and NEMO WG chairs > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mip6 mailing list > > Mip6@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > > > > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 00:54:24 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA12652 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGsWm-0004sE-Af; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:47:36 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGsWj-0004s6-UL; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:47:34 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA12003; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:47:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from shaku.sfc.wide.ad.jp ([203.178.143.49]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DGsdm-0001fn-F0; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:54:51 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.4] (p2097-ipbf703marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp [222.145.165.97]) (authenticated bits=0) by shaku.sfc.wide.ad.jp (8.12.10/8.12.0) with ESMTP id j2V5jdFj027221; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:45:45 +0900 In-Reply-To: References: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> <424B32A4.9040408@iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ryuji Wakikawa Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:45:33 +0900 To: Sri Gundavelli X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 42e3ed3f10a1d8bef690f09da16f507a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, Vijay Devarapalli , Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Sri On 2005/03/31, at 8:27, Sri Gundavelli wrote: > Hi Vijay, > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Vijay Devarapalli wrote: > >> Sri, >> >> Sri Gundavelli wrote: >>> Hi Raj, >>> In the last IETF nemo meeting, we raised some >>> issues on the approach chosen by this draft. We are >>> not convinced that the draft has explored and narrowed >>> down on the most common v4 traversal scenarios. The >>> basic assumption of the draft that the v6 Home Agent's >>> functionality is collapsed in to the transition gateway >>> is not valid and just addresses one scenario. The >>> requirement the draft imposes on having a V4 network >>> terminating on the v6 home agent is probably not >>> acceptible. >> >> if I understood you right, your concern is about how to make >> an IPv6 HA with an IPv4 interface accesible through the IPv4 >> Internet. right? > > The question is not about configuring a v4 address on the > interface of v6 home agent, it about the termination point > of the v4 network and the placement of a v6 home agent. You > cannot expect the v6 home agent and the transition gateway > service to be co-located. The point is that we should identify > the practical deployment sceanarios and go from there. > >> >>> Also, the draft's claim that they are >>> avoiding one extra encap layer is not true, the moment >>> you move the transition gateway from the home agent, >>> indeed an extra encap layer is needed. >> >> we do want to keep it to just one level of encapsulation. >> > > Other way to say is we would not an extra encap layer, when > the home agent and the transition gateway functions are spread > out. OK, but there is a problem, "double tunneling". Packets have, at least, three IP headers when MN roams to v4 network. Extra bits and processing costs are burden for MIP6/NEMO in IPv4. regards, ryuji > >> Vijay >> >>> >>> There were some other proposals for solving this problem >>> and one being "draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal-01.txt", >>> we should look at this work as well. Before we agree on >>> a solution, we should atleast semantically agree on the >>> problem statement and the scope. I remember you words, >>> we should not boil the ocean in the process, Agreed ! >>> But, atleast we should have some amount of discussions on >>> the problem scope. My 2c. >>> >>> Regards >>> Sri >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>> One of the major barriers to the deployment of Mobile IPv6 today is >>>> the fact that most access networks are IPv4 only. A number of hosts >>>> are already dual-stack capable. While Mobile IPv6 works well in IPv6 >>>> networks, it is essential that IPv6 mobility service continue to >>>> work >>>> even when the mobile host is attached to an IPv4 network. The same >>>> applies to a NEMO mobile router as well. >>>> >>>> A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: >>>> 1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 >>>> 2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 >>>> While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, >>>> there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would >>>> address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single >>>> sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) >>>> need >>>> to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming >>>> in >>>> and attached to an IPv4 access network." >>>> It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the >>>> problem immediately. >>>> >>>> The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a >>>> MIPv6 >>>> mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access >>>> network in a simple manner. >>>> It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the >>>> IETFs >>>> MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs >>>> have >>>> reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at >>>> the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. >>>> >>>> The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there >>>> is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards >>>> track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. >>>> >>>> If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG >>>> item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt >>>> >>>> Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: >>>> For [ ] >>>> Against [ ] >>>> >>>> >>>> - MIP6 and NEMO WG chairs >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Mip6 mailing list >>>> Mip6@ietf.org >>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Mip6 mailing list >>> Mip6@ietf.org >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 >> > > _______________________________________________ > Mip6 mailing list > Mip6@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 01:24:30 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA15146 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:24:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGt3O-0002Re-0B; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:21:18 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGt3M-0002RT-EY; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:21:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA14913; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DGtAQ-0002OR-G1; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:28:34 -0500 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Mar 2005 22:21:07 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.91,136,1110182400"; d="scan'208"; a="243361130:sNHT33342056" Received: from irp-view7.cisco.com (irp-view7.cisco.com [171.70.65.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j2V6L4ZW019789; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:21:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:21:04 -0800 (PST) From: Sri Gundavelli To: Ryuji Wakikawa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> <424B32A4.9040408@iprg.nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, Vijay Devarapalli , Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Hi Ryuji, Please see inline ... On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Ryuji Wakikawa wrote: > Hello Sri > > > Other way to say is we would not an extra encap layer, when > > the home agent and the transition gateway functions are spread > > out. > > OK, but there is a problem, "double tunneling". > Packets have, at least, three IP headers when MN roams to v4 network. > Extra bits and processing costs are burden for MIP6/NEMO in IPv4. > That is the cost for going over a transition gateway. The transition solutions should not expect the networks to overlap, they should provide a way for the network administrators to systematically move the v4 network out from the v6 cloud in a segmented approach. The solution we are debating is about the tight coupling of the v4 and v6 networks and requiring fundamental changes to the binding cache entries for associating v4 addresses. If the solution requires a v4 network all the way to the Home Agent, a dual stacked Mobile Router, a modified home agent to understand v4 address semantics, wonder why we can't go to the next step of replacing the v6 home agent with a v4 home agent. Clearly, the solution cannot disregard the problem scenarios such as a home agent in a v6 cloud and disjointed transition gateway to the v4 cloud. All I'm saying is that we should agree up on the problem scenarios, review the current solutions including doors and work towards a solution. Regards Sri From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 02:00:44 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19297 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:00:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGtdL-0000po-GJ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:58:27 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGtdI-0000pb-Iy; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:58:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA18576; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:58:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from colo-firewall-a.elevenwireless.com ([69.30.32.182] helo=smtp.elevennetworks.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DGtkM-0003BG-HM; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:05:43 -0500 Received: from kdsl241.sttl.uswest.net ([209.181.90.241] helo=VALUED847D7605) by smtp.elevennetworks.com with esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DGtcr-0003tA-FM; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:58:01 -0800 From: "Carl Williams" To: "'Sri Gundavelli'" , "'Vijay Devarapalli'" Subject: RE: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:11:55 -0700 Organization: KDDI Labs USA Message-ID: <000001c535b8$8b9d65d0$4132000a@VALUED847D7605> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21be852dc93f0971708678c18d38c096 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, ryuji@sfc.wide.ad.jp, Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Sri, Looking at things from an operational or deployment perspective: One requirement that I believe is highly desirable is the ease of deployment of a solution that enables Mobile IPv6 traversal in IPv4 networks. Additional network infrastructure and/or a complicated protocol will take us further from the base MIPv6 protocol - which impacts the ease of deployment and possible acceptance. It would be highly desirable for operators and users not to have a requirement that their Mobile IPv6 service be dependent on a separate transition service. Finally, co-existence of Mobile IPv6 (a feature of IPv6:) with IPv4 networks is a mandate that we must adhere to ASAP; otherwise, there will be little acceptance to advance Mobile IPv6 adoption/deployment [just think if we waited for the core IPv6 specifications to become RFCs before working on v6ops stuff - where would will be with IPv6 deployment today]. draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 limits the scope to what I believe is the minimum scenario and requires little protocol changes. Let's keep in mind the operator's perspective in the debate. Carl -----Original Message----- From: nemo-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:nemo-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sri Gundavelli Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:27 PM To: Vijay Devarapalli Cc: nemo@ietf.org; mip6@ietf.org; Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document Hi Vijay, On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Vijay Devarapalli wrote: > Sri, > > Sri Gundavelli wrote: > > Hi Raj, > > In the last IETF nemo meeting, we raised some > > issues on the approach chosen by this draft. We are > > not convinced that the draft has explored and narrowed > > down on the most common v4 traversal scenarios. The > > basic assumption of the draft that the v6 Home Agent's > > functionality is collapsed in to the transition gateway > > is not valid and just addresses one scenario. The > > requirement the draft imposes on having a V4 network > > terminating on the v6 home agent is probably not > > acceptible. > > if I understood you right, your concern is about how to make > an IPv6 HA with an IPv4 interface accesible through the IPv4 > Internet. right? The question is not about configuring a v4 address on the interface of v6 home agent, it about the termination point of the v4 network and the placement of a v6 home agent. You cannot expect the v6 home agent and the transition gateway service to be co-located. The point is that we should identify the practical deployment sceanarios and go from there. > > > Also, the draft's claim that they are > > avoiding one extra encap layer is not true, the moment > > you move the transition gateway from the home agent, > > indeed an extra encap layer is needed. > > we do want to keep it to just one level of encapsulation. > Other way to say is we would not an extra encap layer, when the home agent and the transition gateway functions are spread out. > Vijay > > > > > There were some other proposals for solving this problem > > and one being "draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal-01.txt", > > we should look at this work as well. Before we agree on > > a solution, we should atleast semantically agree on the > > problem statement and the scope. I remember you words, > > we should not boil the ocean in the process, Agreed ! > > But, atleast we should have some amount of discussions on > > the problem scope. My 2c. > > > > Regards > > Sri > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com wrote: > > > > > >>One of the major barriers to the deployment of Mobile IPv6 today is > >>the fact that most access networks are IPv4 only. A number of hosts > >>are already dual-stack capable. While Mobile IPv6 works well in IPv6 > >>networks, it is essential that IPv6 mobility service continue to work > >>even when the mobile host is attached to an IPv4 network. The same > >>applies to a NEMO mobile router as well. > >> > >>A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: > >>1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 > >>2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 > >>While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, > >>there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would > >>address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single > >>sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need > >>to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in > >>and attached to an IPv4 access network." > >>It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the > >>problem immediately. > >> > >>The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6 > >>mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access > >>network in a simple manner. > >>It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs > >>MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have > >>reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at > >>the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. > >> > >>The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there > >>is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards > >>track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. > >> > >>If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG > >>item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt > >> > >>Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: > >> For [ ] > >> Against [ ] > >> > >> > >>- MIP6 and NEMO WG chairs > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Mip6 mailing list > >>Mip6@ietf.org > >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mip6 mailing list > > Mip6@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 11:14:38 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08037 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH2DP-0000yu-CR; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:08:15 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH2DN-0000yZ-LP; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:08:13 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07084; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from dns1.tilab.com ([163.162.42.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DH2KS-0004EK-2A; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:15:34 -0500 Received: from iowa2k01a.cselt.it ([163.162.242.201]) by dns1.cselt.it (PMDF V6.0-025 #38895) with ESMTP id <0IE80078G4N84Y@dns1.cselt.it>; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:04:20 +0200 (MEST) Received: from EXC01B.cselt.it ([163.162.4.199]) by iowa2k01a.cselt.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:09:39 +0200 Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:06:47 +0200 From: Gerardo Giaretta To: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Importance: normal Priority: normal Thread-Topic: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel aMIP6/NEMO WGs document Thread-Index: AcU1X1N98uBHQOYSR/WoaWzQrwx+tAArExtQ Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2005 16:09:39.0187 (UTC) FILETIME=[0A65AC30:01C5360C] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel aMIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Raj, I have two general comments about making draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a WG item: - I agree with you that the scenario you described is the most interesting one and I'm favor of focusing on it immediately. However I think that before having consensus on this solution draft, we should understand if there is consensus on scenarios we want to address and in particular if there is consensus to address only this particular scenario. At least I thought this was the MIP6 WG original intention since MIP6 charter states that the WG will document a problem statement related to IPv4/IPv6 transition issues. - I wonder why draft-soliman-v4v6-mipv4-01 has not been considered as a candidate WG item (at least for MIP6). I'd like to see a discussion about the pros and cons of both drafts. In my view they tackle the same scenario in a very similar way. The main difference is the BU message format: based on draft-wakikawa the source address of the IPv6 packet is the HoA, since the message is treated as a particular de-registration; in draft-soliman the source address is the CoAv4 mapped in IPv6 address format. I'd like to understand better the rationale behind the choice in draft-wakikawa. Personally, I think that the approach of draft-soliman is a little bit cleaner since the BU is not considered a de-registration message. BTW, we implemented draft-soliman: it requires few changes in MIPv6 stack and works great. Regards, --Gerardo > -----Original Message----- > From: mip6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mip6-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:33 PM > To: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org > Subject: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID=20 > draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel aMIP6/NEMO WGs document >=20 >=20 >=20 > One of the major barriers to the deployment of Mobile IPv6 today is > the fact that most access networks are IPv4 only. A number of hosts > are already dual-stack capable. While Mobile IPv6 works well in IPv6 > networks, it is essential that IPv6 mobility service continue to work > even when the mobile host is attached to an IPv4 network. The same > applies to a NEMO mobile router as well.=20 >=20 > A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs:=20 > 1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 > 2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 > While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, > there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would > address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single > sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need > to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in > and attached to an IPv4 access network." > It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the > problem immediately.=20 >=20 > The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6=20 > mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access > network in a simple manner.=20 > It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs > MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have > reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at > the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62.=20 >=20 > The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there > is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards > track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs.=20 >=20 > If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG > item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt=20 >=20 > Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: > For [ ] > Against [ ] >=20 >=20 > - MIP6 and NEMO WG chairs >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Mip6 mailing list > Mip6@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 >=20 Gruppo Telecom Italia - Direzione e coordinamento di Telecom Italia = S.p.A. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should you have any questions, please send an e_mail to=20 MailAdmin@tilab.com. Thank you =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 12:23:27 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13693 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:23:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH3Mn-0000dK-Os; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:22:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH3Mk-0000bx-Th; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:21:59 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13650; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.64.48]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DH3Tu-0007Ez-Ce; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:29:22 -0500 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com ([192.76.190.6]) by slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2.MG.10092003/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id JAA28292; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-AV-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id j2VHLZ713466; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:21:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from xch-nw-21.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.48.4.95]) by XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:17:08 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making IDdraft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:17:08 -0800 Message-ID: <6E5042539D21AF4E9C457B4DDCC3D6E107DF95B4@xch-nw-21.nw.nos.boeing.com> Thread-Topic: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making IDdraft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document Thread-Index: AcU1v5GuzceS5DXWRkq/HF4w9gVtswAT1K4Q From: "Davis, Terry L" To: , "Sri Gundavelli" , "Vijay Devarapalli" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2005 17:17:08.0811 (UTC) FILETIME=[782941B0:01C53615] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 17e5edc4dfd335965c1d21372171c01c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, ryuji@sfc.wide.ad.jp, Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carl Amen!!! I would be very interested if your requirement were in place: "One requirement that I believe is highly desirable is the ease of deployment of a solution that enables Mobile IPv6 traversal in IPv4 networks." This would allow us to consider v6 for the mobile platform without worrying about installing a full global v6 infrastructure to support them. Sri/Vijay And I'd sure like it if the discussion considered options to "home agents". I fail to comprehend how I move state for routing, QoS, security, and capacity for hundreds of users/applications on mobile platforms around on a global scale through home agents, especially if I'm joining someone else's network (i.e. one airport to the next). Try imagining teleporting an engineering building from your corporate campus instantly onto the campus of your biggest competitor and have all network connections maintained, your VPN's not dropped, routing continue un-interrupted, security maintained, QoS maintained, and you have equivalent network capacity. This is what we are beginning to try to do with large mobile platforms today. Now I don't honestly believe we can achieve all of this; but it seems like this should be our goal. Take care Terry Davis Connexion by Boeing -----Original Message----- From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 10:12 PM To: 'Sri Gundavelli'; 'Vijay Devarapalli' Cc: nemo@ietf.org; mip6@ietf.org; ryuji@sfc.wide.ad.jp; Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Subject: RE: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making IDdraft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document Hi Sri, Looking at things from an operational or deployment perspective: One requirement that I believe is highly desirable is the ease of deployment of a solution that enables Mobile IPv6 traversal in IPv4 networks. Additional network infrastructure and/or a complicated protocol will take us further from the base MIPv6 protocol - which impacts the ease of deployment and possible acceptance.=20 It would be highly desirable for operators and users not to have a requirement that their Mobile IPv6 service be dependent on a separate transition service. =20 Finally, co-existence of Mobile IPv6 (a feature of IPv6:) with IPv4 networks is a mandate that we must adhere to ASAP; otherwise, there will be little acceptance to advance Mobile IPv6 adoption/deployment [just think if we waited for the core IPv6 specifications to become RFCs before working on v6ops stuff - where would will be with IPv6 deployment today]. draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 limits the scope to what I believe is the minimum scenario and requires little protocol changes. Let's keep in mind the operator's perspective in the debate.=20 Carl -----Original Message----- From: nemo-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:nemo-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sri Gundavelli Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:27 PM To: Vijay Devarapalli Cc: nemo@ietf.org; mip6@ietf.org; Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document Hi Vijay, On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Vijay Devarapalli wrote: > Sri, > > Sri Gundavelli wrote: > > Hi Raj, > > In the last IETF nemo meeting, we raised some > > issues on the approach chosen by this draft. We are > > not convinced that the draft has explored and narrowed > > down on the most common v4 traversal scenarios. The > > basic assumption of the draft that the v6 Home Agent's > > functionality is collapsed in to the transition gateway > > is not valid and just addresses one scenario. The > > requirement the draft imposes on having a V4 network > > terminating on the v6 home agent is probably not > > acceptible. > > if I understood you right, your concern is about how to make > an IPv6 HA with an IPv4 interface accesible through the IPv4 > Internet. right? The question is not about configuring a v4 address on the interface of v6 home agent, it about the termination point of the v4 network and the placement of a v6 home agent. You cannot expect the v6 home agent and the transition gateway service to be co-located. The point is that we should identify the practical deployment sceanarios and go from there. > > > Also, the draft's claim that they are > > avoiding one extra encap layer is not true, the moment > > you move the transition gateway from the home agent, > > indeed an extra encap layer is needed. > > we do want to keep it to just one level of encapsulation. > Other way to say is we would not an extra encap layer, when the home agent and the transition gateway functions are spread out. > Vijay > > > > > There were some other proposals for solving this problem > > and one being "draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal-01.txt", > > we should look at this work as well. Before we agree on > > a solution, we should atleast semantically agree on the > > problem statement and the scope. I remember you words, > > we should not boil the ocean in the process, Agreed ! > > But, atleast we should have some amount of discussions on > > the problem scope. My 2c. > > > > Regards > > Sri > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com wrote: > > > > > >>One of the major barriers to the deployment of Mobile IPv6 today is > >>the fact that most access networks are IPv4 only. A number of hosts > >>are already dual-stack capable. While Mobile IPv6 works well in IPv6 > >>networks, it is essential that IPv6 mobility service continue to work > >>even when the mobile host is attached to an IPv4 network. The same > >>applies to a NEMO mobile router as well. > >> > >>A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: > >>1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 > >>2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 > >>While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, > >>there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would > >>address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single > >>sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need > >>to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in > >>and attached to an IPv4 access network." > >>It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the > >>problem immediately. > >> > >>The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6 > >>mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access > >>network in a simple manner. > >>It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs > >>MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have > >>reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at > >>the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. > >> > >>The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there > >>is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards > >>track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. > >> > >>If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG > >>item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt > >> > >>Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: > >> For [ ] > >> Against [ ] > >> > >> > >>- MIP6 and NEMO WG chairs > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Mip6 mailing list > >>Mip6@ietf.org > >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mip6 mailing list > > Mip6@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 12:32:48 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14446 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH3TV-00029T-Ed; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:28:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH3TT-00026k-Ej; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:28:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14158; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate3.mot.com ([144.189.100.103]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DH3ac-0007Tm-2Z; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:36:19 -0500 Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by motgate3.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate3) with ESMTP id j2VHbL6q006189; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:37:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from il02exm13.corp.mot.com (il02exm13.corp.mot.com [10.0.111.24]) by az33exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j2VHTvQ3025765; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:29:58 -0600 (CST) Received: by il02exm13 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:28:50 -0600 Message-ID: <1B631E11D496D711BB2800065BFCB6A11B7A6E6F@il02exm13> From: Narayanan Vidya-CVN065 To: "'Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com'" , mip6@ietf.org, nemo@ietf.org Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:28:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunn el a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Raj, >From all the emails, it sounds like we need consensus not just on the draft-wakikawa becoming a WG item, but also on whether this is the most important scenario to focus on immediately. I agree that the scenario of IPv6 MN or MR going through an IPv4 access network is the most important one to solve. I think this is immediately required for deployment and in my mind, it is perhaps even the only scenario we ever need a solution for - although that is debatable. On the draft-wakikawa itself, I do like the approach taken with the goal of eliminating an unnecessary transition tunnel in addition to the rest of the tunnels. But, I think Gerardo's point of looking at draft-soliman-v4v6-mipv4-01 before making a decision on this would be valid. The approaches have similarities and I think a comparison and pros/cons discussion will be valuable. Regards, Vidya -----Original Message----- From: mip6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mip6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 1:33 PM To: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org Subject: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document One of the major barriers to the deployment of Mobile IPv6 today is the fact that most access networks are IPv4 only. A number of hosts are already dual-stack capable. While Mobile IPv6 works well in IPv6 networks, it is essential that IPv6 mobility service continue to work even when the mobile host is attached to an IPv4 network. The same applies to a NEMO mobile router as well. A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: 1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in and attached to an IPv4 access network." It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the problem immediately. The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6 mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access network in a simple manner. It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: For [ ] Against [ ] - MIP6 and NEMO WG chairs _______________________________________________ Mip6 mailing list Mip6@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 12:59:40 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17223 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH3sE-0008IW-6Q; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:54:30 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH3sB-0008IG-E3; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:54:27 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16760; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.69]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DH3zL-00005t-I9; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:01:51 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id j2VINnP06321; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:23:49 -0800 X-mProtect: <200503311823> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from danira-pool05316.americas.nokia.com (10.241.53.16, claiming to be "[127.0.0.1]") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdKz6u8d; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:23:46 PST Message-ID: <424C3932.8080005@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:53:54 -0800 From: Vijay Devarapalli User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pekka Savola References: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> <424B32A4.9040408@iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pekka Savola wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Vijay Devarapalli wrote: > >>> Also, the draft's claim that they are >>> avoiding one extra encap layer is not true, the moment >>> you move the transition gateway from the home agent, >>> indeed an extra encap layer is needed. >> >> >> we do want to keep it to just one level of encapsulation. > > > Why, exactly? well, if its doable, dont we always want minimal encapsulation? it is doable if the following assumptions from the draft are valid. - HA has v4 and v6 interface - MN is dual-stack - HA's v4 address is reachable from the IPv4 Internet. > There are existing mechanisms out there which have been deployed for > years, widely implemented, etc. to deal with exactly these issues. I am not sure I understood. we are not defining any new tunneling mechanisms. the idea is to use the existing tunneling mechanisms. > > You're arguing we need to design protocol extensions to save 20 or 40 > bytes. Is it worth it ? well, the protocol extension is only to bind an IPv4 CoA to IPv6 HoA. it is minor enough that we dont have to worry about it. > A couple of quick comments on the ID: > - which encapsulation types are mandatory-to-implement? There must be > at least one or a couple, to ensure interoperability. right. we havent picked a mandatory-to-implement mechanism yet. IPv6-in-UDP-over-IPv4 and IPv6-over-IPv4? suggestions are welcome. > - you specify UDP encapsulation for NAT traversal, but no keepalive okay. will fix this. > - I guess it should be possible to discover the v4 home agent address > without having to use (v6-only) DHAAD? DNS is one mechanism to discover the v4 address of the home agent. Vijay From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 13:27:39 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19789 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:27:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH4I1-0006Bl-0H; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:21:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH4Gf-0005o9-Pe; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:21:06 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19320; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:19:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.69]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DH4Nn-000184-2v; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:27:10 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id j2VIgPj21464; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:42:25 -0800 X-mProtect: <200503311842> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from danira-pool05316.americas.nokia.com (10.241.53.16, claiming to be "[127.0.0.1]") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdmqvZng; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:42:22 PST Message-ID: <424C3D8D.9070306@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:12:29 -0800 From: Vijay Devarapalli User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gerardo Giaretta Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel aMIP6/NEMO WGs document References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerardo Giaretta wrote: > Hi Raj, > > I have two general comments about making draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a > WG item: > > - I agree with you that the scenario you described is the most > interesting one and I'm favor of focusing on it immediately. great. > However I > think that before having consensus on this solution draft, we should > understand if there is consensus on scenarios we want to address and in > particular if there is consensus to address only this particular > scenario. At least I thought this was the MIP6 WG original intention > since MIP6 charter states that the WG will document a problem statement > related to IPv4/IPv6 transition issues. ah.. you werent at the MIP4 WG meeting. the question about multiple transition scenarios came up. there was an agreement on the following scenarios. (if I am wrong, those who were at the MIP4 WG meeting, please correct me). 1) There are people who want to deploy MIPv6 (and NEMO). they dont use MIPv4 currently. For these folks the most important scenario is to reach the IPv6 Home Agent (and services) from an IPv4 access network. 2) There are people who have deployed MIPv4. They want to move to MIPv6. then there are other scenarios, for example, an MIPv4 node ending up on a pure IPv6 access network. I think those scenarios should be excluded. not realistic. I am not sure there was concensus, but the general mood in the meeting was that the MIP4 WG will look into the second scenario. IMHO, MIP6 should deal with 1). > - I wonder why draft-soliman-v4v6-mipv4-01 has not been considered as a > candidate WG item (at least for MIP6). I'd like to see a discussion > about the pros and cons of both drafts. In my view they tackle the same > scenario in a very similar way. okay. draft-soliman-v4v6 deals with lots of scenarios including scenario 1) and 2) above. draft-wakikawa talks only about scenario 1). the idea of binding an IPv4 CoA to an IPv6 HoA is very old. draft-soliman is not the first one that spoke about it. draft-wakikawa just explains in *very* detail how to do scenario 1), including a new mobility option, MN and HA operation to process this new mobility option, IPsec SPD and SAD entries for securing the IPv6-over-IPv4 tunnel, NAT traversal, how to negotiate a particular tunneling mechanism and new binding ack status values. > The main difference is the BU message > format: based on draft-wakikawa the source address of the IPv6 packet is > the HoA, since the message is treated as a particular de-registration; > in draft-soliman the source address is the CoAv4 mapped in IPv6 address > format. I'd like to understand better the rationale behind the choice in > draft-wakikawa. Personally, I think that the approach of draft-soliman > is a little bit cleaner since the BU is not considered a de-registration > message. hmm.. but you want to remove any existing binding cache entries that bind the IPv6 HoA to an IPv6 CoA, right? we are just combining removing an existing BCE with IPv6 CoA and adding a new BCE with IPv4 CoA. Vijay From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 15:08:28 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29938 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:08:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH5sc-0000rF-2n; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:03:02 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH5sY-0000qL-On; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:03:00 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28876; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:02:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.69]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DH5zj-00058N-S4; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:10:24 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id j2VKVmw25677; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:31:48 -0800 X-mProtect: <200503312031> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from mvdhcp14160.americas.nokia.com (172.18.141.60, claiming to be "[127.0.0.1]") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdwyMld7; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:31:46 PST Message-ID: <424C5733.103@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:01:55 -0800 From: Vijay Devarapalli User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz References: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> <424C3EF8.5050507@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <424C3EF8.5050507@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d2e37451f7f22841e3b6f40c67db0f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henrik, there is some mis-understanding regarding the relation between draft-soliman and draft-wakikawa. both solve the scenario of a v6 MN or MR accessing its v6 home agent from a v4 only access network. draft-soliman talks about using a IPv4 mapped IPv6 address to convey the IPv4 CoA to the HA. draft-wakikawa uses a new mobility option to carry the IPv4 CoA. I personally prefer carrying it in a separate mobility option, because it makes processing on the HA easier. we can debate the pros and cons of this later. but this *does* not impact the scenario. both solve the same scenario. there are other scenarios, but IMHO, they are not relevant. regarding Sri's concerns, we do intend to address them. dont worry about that. we have an assumption in the draft. - the HA's IPv4 address is reachable through the IPv4 internet Sri is questioning this assumption. he is claiming this is not so easy. he doesnt want IPv4 routing inside his IPv6 network. the HA is deep inside in the IPv6 network. for the HA's IPv4 address to be reachable, you might need a box in the DMZ, which traps the packets for the HA's IPv4 address and tunnels them to the HA deep in the IPv6 network. but here we end with extra tunneling between the box sitting in the DMZ and the HA deep in the IPv6 network. another option is to place the HA in the DMZ. but he doesnt want to do that. I will be discussing with him to see how we can come up with a solution. Sri, let me know if I still dont understand the issue you are bringing up. Vijay Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi, > > On 2005-03-30 9:33 pm Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com said the following: > [...] > >>A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: >>1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 >>2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 >>While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, >>there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would >>address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single >>sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need >>to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in >>and attached to an IPv4 access network." >>It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the >>problem immediately. > > > Given that there already exists at least 3 solution drafts in this area: > > draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal > draft-soliman-v4v6-mipv6 > draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel > > and Sri clearly indicates that there are requirements which these > don't cover, I think it would be good to have a clear and agreed > upon statement of what to achieve before adopting an approach and > draft. So I'm not for adopting draft-wakikawa before there is an > agreed upon problem statement. > > That said, I'm very much in favour of doing this work; and doing > it by extensions to MIP6 (and MIP4) rather than trying to adapt > any of the other approaches which would mix MIP6 with non-MIP tunnels, > as listed in draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01. > > If the decision is to write a problem statement, I'd be willing to > work on such a draft, and I also have a potential co-editor who have > indicated willingness. > > >>The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6 >>mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access >>network in a simple manner. >>It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs >>MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have >>reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at >>the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. >> >>The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there >>is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards >>track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. >> >>If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG >>item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt >> >>Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: >> For [ ] >> Against [ ] >> > > > Not currently [ X ] > > > Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > Mip6 mailing list > Mip6@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 16:43:03 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15169 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:43:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH7NI-0002un-3g; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:38:48 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH7NH-0002uf-7v; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:38:47 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA14709; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:38:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate.mot.com ([129.188.136.100]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DH7UT-0002EE-94; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:46:13 -0500 Received: from az33exr01.mot.com (az33exr01.mot.com [10.64.251.231]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id j2VLcjQ0011202; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:38:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from il02exm13.corp.mot.com (il02exm13.corp.mot.com [10.0.111.24]) by az33exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j2VLdoVd028626; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:39:51 -0600 (CST) Received: by il02exm13 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:38:43 -0600 Message-ID: <1B631E11D496D711BB2800065BFCB6A11B7A6E71@il02exm13> From: Narayanan Vidya-CVN065 To: "'Vijay Devarapalli'" , Henrik Levkowetz Subject: RE: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa- nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:38:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d2e37451f7f22841e3b6f40c67db0f Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sri, I also understood your comments exactly as Vijay did. A couple of years ago, I did hear about some concerns on placing the HA in the DMZ, but I didn't think any of those were very deep. Is there really a deployment issue in placing the HA in the DMZ? Actually, even if you did place the HA deep in the IPv6 network, forcing the need for a tunneling box in the DMZ that does v4-v6 tunneling, is that really that bad? If most deployments don't have an issue with the placement of the HA in the DMZ and a small percentage of the cases do, it does not seem too bad to me to say that a solution is simple since it solves the 90% case. I'd vote for that rather than make it really complex to also solve the 10% case. My 2 cents, Vidya -----Original Message----- From: nemo-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:nemo-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Vijay Devarapalli Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:02 PM To: Henrik Levkowetz Cc: nemo@ietf.org; mip6@ietf.org; Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document Henrik, there is some mis-understanding regarding the relation between draft-soliman and draft-wakikawa. both solve the scenario of a v6 MN or MR accessing its v6 home agent from a v4 only access network. draft-soliman talks about using a IPv4 mapped IPv6 address to convey the IPv4 CoA to the HA. draft-wakikawa uses a new mobility option to carry the IPv4 CoA. I personally prefer carrying it in a separate mobility option, because it makes processing on the HA easier. we can debate the pros and cons of this later. but this *does* not impact the scenario. both solve the same scenario. there are other scenarios, but IMHO, they are not relevant. regarding Sri's concerns, we do intend to address them. dont worry about that. we have an assumption in the draft. - the HA's IPv4 address is reachable through the IPv4 internet Sri is questioning this assumption. he is claiming this is not so easy. he doesnt want IPv4 routing inside his IPv6 network. the HA is deep inside in the IPv6 network. for the HA's IPv4 address to be reachable, you might need a box in the DMZ, which traps the packets for the HA's IPv4 address and tunnels them to the HA deep in the IPv6 network. but here we end with extra tunneling between the box sitting in the DMZ and the HA deep in the IPv6 network. another option is to place the HA in the DMZ. but he doesnt want to do that. I will be discussing with him to see how we can come up with a solution. Sri, let me know if I still dont understand the issue you are bringing up. Vijay Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi, > > On 2005-03-30 9:33 pm Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com said the following: > [...] > >>A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: >>1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 >>2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 >>While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, >>there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would >>address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single >>sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need >>to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in >>and attached to an IPv4 access network." >>It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the >>problem immediately. > > > Given that there already exists at least 3 solution drafts in this > area: > > draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal > draft-soliman-v4v6-mipv6 > draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel > > and Sri clearly indicates that there are requirements which these > don't cover, I think it would be good to have a clear and agreed upon > statement of what to achieve before adopting an approach and draft. > So I'm not for adopting draft-wakikawa before there is an agreed upon > problem statement. > > That said, I'm very much in favour of doing this work; and doing it by > extensions to MIP6 (and MIP4) rather than trying to adapt any of the > other approaches which would mix MIP6 with non-MIP tunnels, as listed > in draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01. > > If the decision is to write a problem statement, I'd be willing to > work on such a draft, and I also have a potential co-editor who have > indicated willingness. > > >>The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6 >>mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access >>network in a simple manner. >>It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs >>MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have >>reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at >>the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. >> >>The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there >>is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards >>track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. >> >>If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG >>item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt >> >>Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: >> For [ ] >> Against [ ] >> > > > Not currently [ X ] > > > Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > Mip6 mailing list > Mip6@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 18:12:46 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22376 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:12:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH8me-0002IY-IP; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:09:04 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH8mc-0002IL-OB; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:09:02 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21857; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:09:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70] helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DH8tp-0005RN-Dz; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:16:29 -0500 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 31 Mar 2005 15:08:21 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.91,139,1110182400"; d="scan'208"; a="624887724:sNHT803518860" Received: from irp-view8.cisco.com (irp-view8.cisco.com [171.70.65.145]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j2VN8EDs016508; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:08:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:08:18 -0800 (PST) From: Sri Gundavelli To: Vijay Devarapalli In-Reply-To: <424C5733.103@iprg.nokia.com> Message-ID: References: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> <424C3EF8.5050507@levkowetz.com> <424C5733.103@iprg.nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2ed806e2f53ff1a061ad4f97e00345ac Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, Henrik Levkowetz , Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Hi Vijay/Vidya, On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Vijay Devarapalli wrote: > Henrik, > > there is some mis-understanding regarding the relation > between draft-soliman and draft-wakikawa. both solve the > scenario of a v6 MN or MR accessing its v6 home agent from > a v4 only access network. draft-soliman talks about using a > IPv4 mapped IPv6 address to convey the IPv4 CoA to the > HA. draft-wakikawa uses a new mobility option to carry > the IPv4 CoA. I personally prefer carrying it in a separate > mobility option, because it makes processing on the HA easier. > we can debate the pros and cons of this later. but this *does* > not impact the scenario. both solve the same scenario. > > there are other scenarios, but IMHO, they are not relevant. > > regarding Sri's concerns, we do intend to address them. dont > worry about that. we have an assumption in the draft. > > - the HA's IPv4 address is reachable through the IPv4 internet > > Sri is questioning this assumption. he is claiming this is > not so easy. he doesnt want IPv4 routing inside his IPv6 > network. the HA is deep inside in the IPv6 network. for the > HA's IPv4 address to be reachable, you might need a box in > the DMZ, which traps the packets for the HA's IPv4 address > and tunnels them to the HA deep in the IPv6 network. but here > we end with extra tunneling between the box sitting in the > DMZ and the HA deep in the IPv6 network. another option is to > place the HA in the DMZ. but he doesnt want to do that. I > will be discussing with him to see how we can come up with a > solution. Sri, let me know if I still dont understand the > issue you are bringing up. > We need to agree on the most common scenarios that we need to address and so we need a problem statement. That should be the basis for defining a solution. Further, we need to have some gap analysis on each of the three present solutions and leverage some thing from them. I agree, we cannot afford to spend too much on that, but at the same time adopting a solution with out having an understanding of the deployment models is not right either. We have implementations based on draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal and some good thinking went in to that proposal and it is important that we review all these solutions in the context of the agreed upon problem space. Regards Sri > Vijay > > Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On 2005-03-30 9:33 pm Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com said the following: > > [...] > > > >>A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: > >>1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 > >>2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 > >>While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, > >>there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would > >>address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single > >>sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need > >>to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in > >>and attached to an IPv4 access network." > >>It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the > >>problem immediately. > > > > > > Given that there already exists at least 3 solution drafts in this area: > > > > draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal > > draft-soliman-v4v6-mipv6 > > draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel > > > > and Sri clearly indicates that there are requirements which these > > don't cover, I think it would be good to have a clear and agreed > > upon statement of what to achieve before adopting an approach and > > draft. So I'm not for adopting draft-wakikawa before there is an > > agreed upon problem statement. > > > > That said, I'm very much in favour of doing this work; and doing > > it by extensions to MIP6 (and MIP4) rather than trying to adapt > > any of the other approaches which would mix MIP6 with non-MIP tunnels, > > as listed in draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01. > > > > If the decision is to write a problem statement, I'd be willing to > > work on such a draft, and I also have a potential co-editor who have > > indicated willingness. > > > > > >>The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6 > >>mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access > >>network in a simple manner. > >>It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs > >>MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have > >>reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at > >>the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. > >> > >>The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there > >>is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards > >>track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. > >> > >>If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG > >>item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt > >> > >>Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: > >> For [ ] > >> Against [ ] > >> > > > > > > Not currently [ X ] > > > > > > Henrik > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mip6 mailing list > > Mip6@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mip6 mailing list > Mip6@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 18:23:30 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23559 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH8vy-00045k-7c; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:18:42 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH8vw-00045X-28; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:18:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23065; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:18:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DH937-0005lI-Om; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:26:07 -0500 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 31 Mar 2005 15:18:26 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.91,139,1110182400"; d="scan'208"; a="243835391:sNHT9722861612" Received: from irp-view8.cisco.com (irp-view8.cisco.com [171.70.65.145]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j2VNINZW004244; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:18:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:18:23 -0800 (PST) From: Sri Gundavelli To: Narayanan Vidya-CVN065 Subject: RE: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa- nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document In-Reply-To: <1B631E11D496D711BB2800065BFCB6A11B7A6E71@il02exm13> Message-ID: References: <1B631E11D496D711BB2800065BFCB6A11B7A6E71@il02exm13> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b1c41982e167b872076d0018e4e1dc3c Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, "'Vijay Devarapalli'" , Henrik Levkowetz , Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Vidya, Any transition solution should offer a way for a phased migration. I do not see how the current solution will enable the operator to push the v4 network in a phased manner. The requirements that the HA should be on the edge or if 90% of the deployments will go for that model is debatable and can only be answered by going for a problem statement. Regards Sri On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Narayanan Vidya-CVN065 wrote: > Sri, > I also understood your comments exactly as Vijay did. A couple of years ago, I did hear about some concerns on placing the HA in the DMZ, but I didn't think any of those were very deep. Is there really a deployment issue in placing the HA in the DMZ? > > Actually, even if you did place the HA deep in the IPv6 network, forcing the need for a tunneling box in the DMZ that does v4-v6 tunneling, is that really that bad? > > If most deployments don't have an issue with the placement of the HA in the DMZ and a small percentage of the cases do, it does not seem too bad to me to say that a solution is simple since it solves the 90% case. I'd vote for that rather than make it really complex to also solve the 10% case. > > My 2 cents, > Vidya > > -----Original Message----- > From: nemo-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:nemo-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Vijay Devarapalli > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:02 PM > To: Henrik Levkowetz > Cc: nemo@ietf.org; mip6@ietf.org; Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com > Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document > > > Henrik, > > there is some mis-understanding regarding the relation > between draft-soliman and draft-wakikawa. both solve the scenario of a v6 MN or MR accessing its v6 home agent from a v4 only access network. draft-soliman talks about using a IPv4 mapped IPv6 address to convey the IPv4 CoA to the HA. draft-wakikawa uses a new mobility option to carry the IPv4 CoA. I personally prefer carrying it in a separate mobility option, because it makes processing on the HA easier. we can debate the pros and cons of this later. but this *does* not impact the scenario. both solve the same scenario. > > there are other scenarios, but IMHO, they are not relevant. > > regarding Sri's concerns, we do intend to address them. dont worry about that. we have an assumption in the draft. > > - the HA's IPv4 address is reachable through the IPv4 internet > > Sri is questioning this assumption. he is claiming this is > not so easy. he doesnt want IPv4 routing inside his IPv6 network. the HA is deep inside in the IPv6 network. for the HA's IPv4 address to be reachable, you might need a box in the DMZ, which traps the packets for the HA's IPv4 address and tunnels them to the HA deep in the IPv6 network. but here we end with extra tunneling between the box sitting in the DMZ and the HA deep in the IPv6 network. another option is to place the HA in the DMZ. but he doesnt want to do that. I will be discussing with him to see how we can come up with a solution. Sri, let me know if I still dont understand the issue you are bringing up. > > Vijay > > Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On 2005-03-30 9:33 pm Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com said the following: > > [...] > > > >>A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: > >>1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 > >>2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 > >>While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, > >>there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would > >>address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single > >>sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need > >>to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in > >>and attached to an IPv4 access network." > >>It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the > >>problem immediately. > > > > > > Given that there already exists at least 3 solution drafts in this > > area: > > > > draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal > > draft-soliman-v4v6-mipv6 > > draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel > > > > and Sri clearly indicates that there are requirements which these > > don't cover, I think it would be good to have a clear and agreed upon > > statement of what to achieve before adopting an approach and draft. > > So I'm not for adopting draft-wakikawa before there is an agreed upon > > problem statement. > > > > That said, I'm very much in favour of doing this work; and doing it by > > extensions to MIP6 (and MIP4) rather than trying to adapt any of the > > other approaches which would mix MIP6 with non-MIP tunnels, as listed > > in draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01. > > > > If the decision is to write a problem statement, I'd be willing to > > work on such a draft, and I also have a potential co-editor who have > > indicated willingness. > > > > > >>The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6 > >>mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access > >>network in a simple manner. > >>It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs > >>MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have > >>reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at > >>the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. > >> > >>The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there > >>is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards > >>track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. > >> > >>If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG > >>item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt > >> > >>Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: > >> For [ ] > >> Against [ ] > >> > > > > > > Not currently [ X ] > > > > > > Henrik > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mip6 mailing list > > Mip6@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mip6 mailing list > Mip6@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 20:35:14 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA03747 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:35:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DHB0I-00035O-LD; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:31:18 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DGtxE-0005cG-An; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:19:00 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA07215; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:18:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from netcore.fi ([193.94.160.1]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DGu4G-0003ZH-PB; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:26:18 -0500 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j2V6hfC14250; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:43:41 +0300 Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:43:41 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Vijay Devarapalli In-Reply-To: <424B32A4.9040408@iprg.nokia.com> Message-ID: References: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> <424B32A4.9040408@iprg.nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:31:16 -0500 Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com, Sri Gundavelli Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Vijay Devarapalli wrote: >> Also, the draft's claim that they are >> avoiding one extra encap layer is not true, the moment >> you move the transition gateway from the home agent, >> indeed an extra encap layer is needed. > > we do want to keep it to just one level of encapsulation. Why, exactly? There are existing mechanisms out there which have been deployed for years, widely implemented, etc. to deal with exactly these issues. You're arguing we need to design protocol extensions to save 20 or 40 bytes. Is it worth it ? A couple of quick comments on the ID: - which encapsulation types are mandatory-to-implement? There must be at least one or a couple, to ensure interoperability. - you specify UDP encapsulation for NAT traversal, but no keepalive - I guess it should be possible to discover the v4 home agent address without having to use (v6-only) DHAAD? -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 20:37:43 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA03923 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:37:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DHB0L-00035i-37; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:31:21 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH9wf-0007Bn-8D; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:23:29 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28600; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:23:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from email1.etri.re.kr ([129.254.16.131] helo=email1.etri.info) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DHA3r-00084E-Ga; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:30:56 -0500 Received: from FlyToWorld ([129.254.12.66]) by email1.etri.info with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:24:14 +0900 Message-ID: <001e01c53651$046584a0$420cfe81@FlyToWorld> From: "Junghoon Jee" To: "Vijay Devarapalli" , "Gerardo Giaretta" References: <424C3D8D.9070306@iprg.nokia.com> Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Consensus call on making IDdraft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel aMIP6/NEMO WGs document Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:23:24 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2005 00:24:14.0430 (UTC) FILETIME=[223867E0:01C53651] X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:31:16 -0500 Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgVmlqYXkgYW5kIEFsbCwNCg0KPiBhaC4uIHlvdSB3ZXJlbnQgYXQgdGhlIE1JUDQgV0cgbWVl dGluZy4gdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9uIGFib3V0IG11bHRpcGxlDQo+IHRyYW5zaXRpb24gc2NlbmFyaW9z IGNhbWUgdXAuIHRoZXJlIHdhcyBhbiBhZ3JlZW1lbnQgb24gdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZw0KPiBzY2Vu YXJpb3MuIChpZiBJIGFtIHdyb25nLCB0aG9zZSB3aG8gd2VyZSBhdCB0aGUgTUlQNCBXRyBtZWV0 aW5nLA0KPiBwbGVhc2UgY29ycmVjdCBtZSkuDQo+IA0KPiAxKSBUaGVyZSBhcmUgcGVvcGxlIHdo byB3YW50IHRvIGRlcGxveSBNSVB2NiAoYW5kIE5FTU8pLiB0aGV5IGRvbnQNCj4gICAgIHVzZSBN SVB2NCBjdXJyZW50bHkuIEZvciB0aGVzZSBmb2xrcyB0aGUgbW9zdCBpbXBvcnRhbnQgc2NlbmFy aW8NCj4gICAgIGlzIHRvIHJlYWNoIHRoZSBJUHY2IEhvbWUgQWdlbnQgKGFuZCBzZXJ2aWNlcykg ZnJvbSBhbiBJUHY0IGFjY2Vzcw0KPiAgICAgbmV0d29yay4NCj4gDQo+IDIpIFRoZXJlIGFyZSBw ZW9wbGUgd2hvIGhhdmUgZGVwbG95ZWQgTUlQdjQuIFRoZXkgd2FudCB0byBtb3ZlIHRvDQo+ICAg ICBNSVB2Ni4NCj4gDQo+IHRoZW4gdGhlcmUgYXJlIG90aGVyIHNjZW5hcmlvcywgZm9yIGV4YW1w bGUsIGFuIE1JUHY0IG5vZGUgZW5kaW5nIHVwDQo+IG9uIGEgcHVyZSBJUHY2IGFjY2VzcyBuZXR3 b3JrLiBJIHRoaW5rIHRob3NlIHNjZW5hcmlvcyBzaG91bGQgYmUNCj4gZXhjbHVkZWQuIG5vdCBy ZWFsaXN0aWMuDQo+IA0KPiBJIGFtIG5vdCBzdXJlIHRoZXJlIHdhcyBjb25jZW5zdXMsIGJ1dCB0 aGUgZ2VuZXJhbCBtb29kIGluIHRoZSBtZWV0aW5nDQo+IHdhcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBNSVA0IFdHIHdp bGwgbG9vayBpbnRvIHRoZSBzZWNvbmQgc2NlbmFyaW8uIElNSE8sIE1JUDYNCj4gc2hvdWxkIGRl YWwgd2l0aCAxKS4NCg0KWW91J3JlIHJpZ2h0IGlmIG15IHVuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmcgaXMgY29ycmVj dC4NClRocm91Z2ggTUlQNCBXRyBzZXNzaW9uIGF0IHRoZSBJRVRGNjIsIE1JUDQgV0cgZm9sa3Mg d2FudGVkIHRvIA0KdGFja2xlIHRoZSBzY2VuYXJpbyAyLg0KDQotLUp1bmdob29u From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 20:41:13 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA04317 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DHB0J-00035X-51; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:31:19 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH4Fm-0005eJ-5m; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:18:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19256; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:18:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from av5-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.112]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DH4Mw-00016m-AM; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:26:14 -0500 Received: by av5-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 184E837E4F; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:18:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av5-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0811337E42; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:18:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E091537E43; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:18:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DH4FV-0005IY-Su; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:18:35 +0200 Message-ID: <424C3EF8.5050507@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:18:32 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com References: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.5.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:31:16 -0500 Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, On 2005-03-30 9:33 pm Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com said the following: [...] > A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: > 1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 > 2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 > While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, > there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would > address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single > sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need > to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in > and attached to an IPv4 access network." > It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the > problem immediately. Given that there already exists at least 3 solution drafts in this area: draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal draft-soliman-v4v6-mipv6 draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel and Sri clearly indicates that there are requirements which these don't cover, I think it would be good to have a clear and agreed upon statement of what to achieve before adopting an approach and draft. So I'm not for adopting draft-wakikawa before there is an agreed upon problem statement. That said, I'm very much in favour of doing this work; and doing it by extensions to MIP6 (and MIP4) rather than trying to adapt any of the other approaches which would mix MIP6 with non-MIP tunnels, as listed in draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01. If the decision is to write a problem statement, I'd be willing to work on such a draft, and I also have a potential co-editor who have indicated willingness. > The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6 > mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access > network in a simple manner. > It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs > MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have > reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at > the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. > > The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there > is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards > track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. > > If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG > item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt > > Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: > For [ ] > Against [ ] > Not currently [ X ] Henrik From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 20:41:27 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA04354 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DHB0J-00035d-LA; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:31:19 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DH4eR-0002rC-K0; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:44:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21877; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:44:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DH4lb-00028L-PF; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:51:44 -0500 Message-ID: <05d901c53621$cc1f4830$0f6115ac@dcml.docomolabsusa.com> From: "James Kempf" To: "Henrik Levkowetz" , References: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> <424C3EF8.5050507@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:45:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:31:16 -0500 Cc: nemo@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnela MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Henrik. If we have multiple solution proposals, then I think it makes sense to look at the problem more closely, see how the proposed solutions do and don't address the problem, and try to come up with a solution (or pick one) that best solves the problem. jak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henrik Levkowetz" To: Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnela MIP6/NEMO WGs document > Hi, > > On 2005-03-30 9:33 pm Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com said the following: > [...] > > A number of transition scenarios have been identified in IDs: > > 1. draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01 > > 2. draft-tsirtsis-dsmip-problem-03 > > While discussion of these scenarios in the larger scope makes sense, > > there is a need to focus on the most critical scenario that would > > address the MIP6 host and router problem. The problem in a single > > sentence can be stated as: "Mobile IPv6 hosts and routers (NEMO) need > > to be able to reach its (IPv6) home agent and services when roaming in > > and attached to an IPv4 access network." > > It makes sense to focus on just this one scenario and solve the > > problem immediately. > > Given that there already exists at least 3 solution drafts in this area: > > draft-thubert-nemo-ipv4-traversal > draft-soliman-v4v6-mipv6 > draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel > > and Sri clearly indicates that there are requirements which these > don't cover, I think it would be good to have a clear and agreed > upon statement of what to achieve before adopting an approach and > draft. So I'm not for adopting draft-wakikawa before there is an > agreed upon problem statement. > > That said, I'm very much in favour of doing this work; and doing > it by extensions to MIP6 (and MIP4) rather than trying to adapt > any of the other approaches which would mix MIP6 with non-MIP tunnels, > as listed in draft-larsson-v6ops-mip-scenarios-01. > > If the decision is to write a problem statement, I'd be willing to > work on such a draft, and I also have a potential co-editor who have > indicated willingness. > > > The ID: draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel-01 solves the problem of a MIPv6 > > mobile node or a NEMO mobile router roaming onto a IPv4 only access > > network in a simple manner. > > It is intended that the standardization of this solution in the IETFs > > MIP6 and/or NEMO working groups proceed. The working group chairs have > > reviewed and discussed this work item. It has also been presented at > > the MIP6 and NEMO WGs at IETF62. > > > > The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there > > is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards > > track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. > > > > If we have consensus, then the document will be pursued as a dual WG > > item and called draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4tunnel-xx.txt > > > > Make I-D draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WG ID: > > For [ ] > > Against [ ] > > > > Not currently [ X ] > > > Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > Mip6 mailing list > Mip6@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6 > From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 31 21:28:38 2005 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA07197 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DHBsY-0005Bz-NP; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:27:22 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DHBdL-0002Bo-2O; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:11:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA06212; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:11:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from omgo.iij.ad.jp ([202.232.30.157]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DHBkW-0003JU-EE; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:19:06 -0500 Received: OTM-MO id j312BNg2015850; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:11:23 +0900 (JST) Received: OTM-MIX0 id j312BM24008843; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:11:22 +0900 (JST) Received: JC-SMTP from localhost (keiichi00.osaka.iij.ad.jp [192.168.64.45]) id j312BLCi011633; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:11:22 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 11:10:50 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20050401.111050.01527068.keiichi@iijlab.net> To: mip6@ietf.org, nemo@ietf.org From: Keiichi SHIMA In-Reply-To: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> References: <456943D540CFC14A8D7138E64843F8535BAD25@daebe101.NOE.Nokia.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 4.1.50 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:27:21 -0500 Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] Consensus call on making ID draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel a MIP6/NEMO WGs document X-BeenThere: nemo@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: NEMO Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:33:19 -0600 > The chairs would like to hear your thoughts in order to see if there > is consensus to make it a WG document and progress it as a standards > track RFC. Comments should be sent to both the NEMO and MIP6 WGs. I agree that we need a mechanism for mobile hosts/routers to keep IPv6 mobility functions even if they jump into IPv4 network. Personally, I am not sure if we need to save 40bytes instead of using some other general tunneling mechanism. But, I also personally feel that we need much time if we wait for a general tunneling mechanism to be defined, which we don't want to. Defining a simple traversal mechanism in MIP6/NEMO protocol makes sense to me. The proposal (draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel) is simple enough and it looks easy to implement from implementor's point of view. It only focuses IPv6 mobility which seems a good tradeoff to me. However, I still don't fully understand the pros and cons between draft-wakikawa-nemo-v4tunnel and draft-soliman-v4v6-mipv6. I want to see which is better for our purpose. --- Keiichi SHIMA IIJ Research Laboratory KAME Project