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From:	"apartheid" <agtrhxu@liwest.at>
To: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Primie Minister faces opposition
Date:	Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:25:01 +0100
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phasing out or trans.
Hardmon reports am Viewer. Tony Blair vs David Primie Minister faces =
opposition.
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Koreas Diplomacy win Pakistan. Treats Bush is slams Kerry am remark am =
Survivor! Jets bump am at am Jersey airport.
Have am dentists or parents Cnns Judy or Fortin.
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campaign. Poll Whos or overrated Spot Expert.
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Prank took center in stage House.
World Weather amp Video Member Center Sign in in Updated. Enter Symbol =
Symbol Lookup close sponsored am!
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Pick favorites Watch Heroes season in =
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Weeds. Enter Symbol Symbol Lookup close sponsored am! Rss Cnntogo or=20
sites.<BR>Poll Whos or overrated Spot Expert. Warner earnings am=20
climb!<BR>Usabout Uscontact Uscopy or Cable Network lp. Close of =
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Updated of am is est November is Make a cnn. Fraud Graft case is may a =
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much or even.<BR>Read stories Updated every minutes! Stem defects cause =
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kfc phasing out or trans.<BR>Hardmon reports am Viewer. Tony Blair vs =
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Primie Minister faces opposition.<BR>Pick favorites Watch Heroes season =
in=20
finale is Weeds. Climb but how Koreas Diplomacy win Pakistan. Treats =
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slams Kerry am remark am Survivor! Jets bump am at am Jersey =
airport.<BR>Have am=20
dentists or parents Cnns Judy or Fortin.<BR>Drives across country Buying =
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 03 00:48:13 2006
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Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org

Hi folks,

After the latest discussion on the list, I weighed some of our  
options, and then we had a pow-wow between the NEMO chairs, and the  
Area Director. We've come up with a more tightly-constrained charter,  
with goals that I believe are achievable.

http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/charter2_5.txt

This charter focuses on route optimization for two scenarios:  
automotive and aeronautical. Initially, we will gather the  
requirements into documents, and then work on solutions based on that.

The infrastructure-based / distributed home agent type of solution is  
not spelled out in the charter, because I don't want to bias the type  
of solution we can use. However, based on the documents I've seen  
from Will Ivancic, Terry Davis, and their compatriots, that may be a  
good place to start. We need to refine those documents and their  
input into a good requirements doc. I will work with those groups to  
come up with that document.

The automotive industry working on NEMO solutions is primarily  
located in Japan and Europe. They seem to be in the early stages of  
figuring out how to interact with the IETF, so it may take some extra  
communication with them to be able to import meaningful requirements  
data from them. Thierry will work with those groups on that document.

As was mentioned on the list, it's not my goal to have to change the  
charter document very frequently, since it's a long process. However,  
if we do discover some important deployment scenarios that aren't  
covered under these concrete examples, we can definitely investigate  
updating the charter.

Thanks for your patience and see you all soon in San Diego.

TJ





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------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6FF53.40D9ECB0--




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 04 05:56:29 2006
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From: "James Kempf" <kempf@docomolabs-usa.com>
To: "ml-nemo WG" <nemo@ietf.org>, "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Charter proposal..
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 02:55:14 -0800
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TJ,

Looks pretty good. I'd suggest changing "flying community" to "aviation 
community".

A couple of the goals are listed as May 2006 or November 2006. Since there 
dates are already passed or will soon, I'd suggest updating the dates 
appropriately.

            jak


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
To: "ml-nemo WG" <nemo@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:47 PM
Subject: [nemo] Charter proposal..


> Hi folks,
>
> After the latest discussion on the list, I weighed some of our  options, 
> and then we had a pow-wow between the NEMO chairs, and the  Area Director. 
> We've come up with a more tightly-constrained charter,  with goals that I 
> believe are achievable.
>
> http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/charter2_5.txt
>
> This charter focuses on route optimization for two scenarios:  automotive 
> and aeronautical. Initially, we will gather the  requirements into 
> documents, and then work on solutions based on that.
>
> The infrastructure-based / distributed home agent type of solution is  not 
> spelled out in the charter, because I don't want to bias the type  of 
> solution we can use. However, based on the documents I've seen  from Will 
> Ivancic, Terry Davis, and their compatriots, that may be a  good place to 
> start. We need to refine those documents and their  input into a good 
> requirements doc. I will work with those groups to  come up with that 
> document.
>
> The automotive industry working on NEMO solutions is primarily  located in 
> Japan and Europe. They seem to be in the early stages of  figuring out how 
> to interact with the IETF, so it may take some extra  communication with 
> them to be able to import meaningful requirements  data from them. Thierry 
> will work with those groups on that document.
>
> As was mentioned on the list, it's not my goal to have to change the 
> charter document very frequently, since it's a long process. However,  if 
> we do discover some important deployment scenarios that aren't  covered 
> under these concrete examples, we can definitely investigate  updating the 
> charter.
>
> Thanks for your patience and see you all soon in San Diego.
>
> TJ
>
> 





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 04 17:44:17 2006
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From: Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 14:42:58 -0800
To: "K.Kawaguchi" <kawaguti@ysknet.co.jp>
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Hello,

I'm sorry for my very delayed response.

On 2006/10/30, at 17:00, K.Kawaguchi wrote:
>
> We have already gotten some opinions. We hope to obtain the conclusion
> at the meeting. We want to examine only the conclusion at the meeting,
> because the meeting have not much time.
> If you have an additional opinion, please send it to ML before the
> meeting.

I'm personally fine with the direction that Kawaguchi-san suggested.

Our team implemented NEMO BS on top of the BSD operating system.   
Right now, we only support the basic case (a HoA from a home network)  
due to our implementation design.  So, making it as a basic logo  
requirement and taking a HoA from MNP as an advanced requirement is  
OK for us :-).

However I have one concern.  The Logo program intends to produce many  
interoperable implementations.  But if we have two levels of the logo  
program (basic and advanced), and everyone can get the basic logo by  
implementing only some parts of the specification, what does motivate  
vendors to implement advanced features?

So, the question is, how is it important for NEMO deployment that  
taking a HoA from a mobile network prefix.  If it is not very  
important, then the feature can be in the advanced logo requirement  
only.  But if it is important, we should not have two logo programs.


Regards,
---
Keiichi SHIMA
IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net>
WIDE Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>


On 2006/10/30, at 17:00, K.Kawaguchi wrote:

> Hi all and Vijay-san,
>
> Thank you for answer.
> # I'm sorry the delay.
>
> To our regret, The IPv6 Logo Committee NEMO staffs cannot  
> participate in
> the next meeting. Instead of participation, I made text for the next
> IETF meeting.
>
> We have already gotten some opinions. We hope to obtain the conclusion
> at the meeting. We want to examine only the conclusion at the meeting,
> because the meeting have not much time.
> If you have an additional opinion, please send it to ML before the
> meeting.
>
>
> Best regards
> ---
> Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI
>
>
>
> "Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo"
> "Vijay Devarapalli <vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com>" wrote:
>
>> K.Kawaguchi wrote:
>>
>>>> - HA (Home Agent)
>>>>  - Router functions defined in "Test Specifications for the IPv6  
>>>> Core
>>>>    Protocols" MUST be supported.
>>>>  - Mobile network prefix registration supporting all of explicit  
>>>> mode,
>>>>    implicit mode, home address derived from the Mobile Network  
>>>> Prefix, and
>>>>                    
>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>    home address derived from the Home Network Prefix is a Basic  
>>>> Function (A1).
>>>>     
>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>>>> ^^^^^^^^
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>> --
>>>> * supplementation) keywords
>>>>   Basic Function (Priority A1)  : It is defined as indispensable  
>>>> function.
>>>>                                   It is always to be tested in  
>>>> Logo.
>>>>   Advance Function (Priority A2): It is defined as enhanced  
>>>> feature.
>>>>                                   It is tested by selection in  
>>>> Logo.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> RFC3963 has not described which method is a 'MUST'. Therefore,
>>>> we had equally treated both. However, the operation is possible
>>>> by either one.  And a lot of venders might implement only one
>>>> of methods. Now, we think that it is too rich to demand both from
>>>> all products.
>>>> We will put the bias. Two alternatives without mandating either
>>>> make non-interoperable world. So, mandating one is very reasonable.
>>>> We think naturally that home Address be configured from Home Link
>>>> Prefix is basic method same as MIPv6.
>>
>> sounds good to me.
>>
>> Vijay
>>
>>
>> <Logo_NENO_IETF_68th.txt>






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Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 00:44:41 +0200
From: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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Subject: [nemo] AD review of draft-ietf-nemo-ro-problem-statement-03.txt
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I reviewed this specification and I have no major
issues with it. It will be moved forward to full IESG
review.

--Jari





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 04 17:44:58 2006
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I also reviewed this specification and I have no major
issues with it. I do not believe it handles all issues
associated with the solution space, but we can take
those when the real solutions are designed.

This draft will also be moved forward to full IESG
review.

--Jari





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From:	"OREGON" <aivonwrrm@path-inc.com>
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Subject: complex cultural doping. thorough
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 05 01:55:24 2006
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From: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Charter proposal..
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 07:54:17 +0100
To: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
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Hi,

i agree with the RO part of the charter.

just a minor comment...

in previous version of the charter was an item about ingress filtering=20=

for multihomed nemos. I made a comment about the issue being about=20
fault tolerance in the link between the MR and the HA rather than only=20=

ingress filtering. The goal of this comment was to rephrase the item=20
rather than remove it. I think it may be worthy to work on this if=20
other folks are interested...

Regards, marcelo

El 03/11/2006, a las 6:47, T.J. Kniveton escribi=F3:

> Hi folks,
>
> After the latest discussion on the list, I weighed some of our=20
> options, and then we had a pow-wow between the NEMO chairs, and the=20
> Area Director. We've come up with a more tightly-constrained charter,=20=

> with goals that I believe are achievable.
>
> http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/charter2_5.txt
>
> This charter focuses on route optimization for two scenarios:=20
> automotive and aeronautical. Initially, we will gather the=20
> requirements into documents, and then work on solutions based on that.
>
> The infrastructure-based / distributed home agent type of solution is=20=

> not spelled out in the charter, because I don't want to bias the type=20=

> of solution we can use. However, based on the documents I've seen from=20=

> Will Ivancic, Terry Davis, and their compatriots, that may be a good=20=

> place to start. We need to refine those documents and their input into=20=

> a good requirements doc. I will work with those groups to come up with=20=

> that document.
>
> The automotive industry working on NEMO solutions is primarily located=20=

> in Japan and Europe. They seem to be in the early stages of figuring=20=

> out how to interact with the IETF, so it may take some extra=20
> communication with them to be able to import meaningful requirements=20=

> data from them. Thierry will work with those groups on that document.
>
> As was mentioned on the list, it's not my goal to have to change the=20=

> charter document very frequently, since it's a long process. However,=20=

> if we do discover some important deployment scenarios that aren't=20
> covered under these concrete examples, we can definitely investigate=20=

> updating the charter.
>
> Thanks for your patience and see you all soon in San Diego.
>
> TJ
>
>





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 05 03:07:40 2006
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From: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Charter proposal..
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 00:06:22 -0800
To: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
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Hi Marcelo,

I removed it not only because of your comment, but also because it's =20
not clear to me (a) what work would be done to address n,n,n ingress =20
filtering, and (b) who is committed to do it. In light of this, I =20
removed it until those things can be clarified.

TJ

On Nov 4, 2006, at 10:54 PM, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:

> Hi,
>
> i agree with the RO part of the charter.
>
> just a minor comment...
>
> in previous version of the charter was an item about ingress =20
> filtering for multihomed nemos. I made a comment about the issue =20
> being about fault tolerance in the link between the MR and the HA =20
> rather than only ingress filtering. The goal of this comment was to =20=

> rephrase the item rather than remove it. I think it may be worthy =20
> to work on this if other folks are interested...
>
> Regards, marcelo
>
> El 03/11/2006, a las 6:47, T.J. Kniveton escribi=F3:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> After the latest discussion on the list, I weighed some of our =20
>> options, and then we had a pow-wow between the NEMO chairs, and =20
>> the Area Director. We've come up with a more tightly-constrained =20
>> charter, with goals that I believe are achievable.
>>
>> http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/charter2_5.txt
>>
>> This charter focuses on route optimization for two scenarios: =20
>> automotive and aeronautical. Initially, we will gather the =20
>> requirements into documents, and then work on solutions based on =20
>> that.
>>
>> The infrastructure-based / distributed home agent type of solution =20=

>> is not spelled out in the charter, because I don't want to bias =20
>> the type of solution we can use. However, based on the documents =20
>> I've seen from Will Ivancic, Terry Davis, and their compatriots, =20
>> that may be a good place to start. We need to refine those =20
>> documents and their input into a good requirements doc. I will =20
>> work with those groups to come up with that document.
>>
>> The automotive industry working on NEMO solutions is primarily =20
>> located in Japan and Europe. They seem to be in the early stages =20
>> of figuring out how to interact with the IETF, so it may take some =20=

>> extra communication with them to be able to import meaningful =20
>> requirements data from them. Thierry will work with those groups =20
>> on that document.
>>
>> As was mentioned on the list, it's not my goal to have to change =20
>> the charter document very frequently, since it's a long process. =20
>> However, if we do discover some important deployment scenarios =20
>> that aren't covered under these concrete examples, we can =20
>> definitely investigate updating the charter.
>>
>> Thanks for your patience and see you all soon in San Diego.
>>
>> TJ
>>
>>
>
>





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elizabeth's spirits were so high on this occasion, that though she did=20=
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 05 11:49:23 2006
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Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 17:44:04 +0100
From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
To: nemo@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
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Dear Shima-san,

You raised an interesting point and I totally agree with the rationale. 

As a WG, we should make sure that all functionalities are actually
implemented by at least a few implementors, otherwise the
functionalities would have to be removed in a later revision of the RFC.

It there could only be one level of the ready logo program, this would
rather mean that all features should be part of the ready logo program
in order for an implementation to qualify for it. Otherwise, yes, we
take the risk that some features are not implemented. If that happens,
we would wonder what was the reason behind all the work we make to add
more features.

I think it would be nice if all implementors would make their point
about what is needed to deploy RFC 3963 (this is linked with another
discussion, then), and what has been implemented / is under going on
their side.

Thierry.


On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 14:42:58 -0800
Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net> wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I'm sorry for my very delayed response.
>
>On 2006/10/30, at 17:00, K.Kawaguchi wrote:
>>
>> We have already gotten some opinions. We hope to obtain the conclusion
>> at the meeting. We want to examine only the conclusion at the meeting,
>> because the meeting have not much time.
>> If you have an additional opinion, please send it to ML before the
>> meeting.
>
>I'm personally fine with the direction that Kawaguchi-san suggested.
>
>Our team implemented NEMO BS on top of the BSD operating system.   
>Right now, we only support the basic case (a HoA from a home network)  
>due to our implementation design.  So, making it as a basic logo  
>requirement and taking a HoA from MNP as an advanced requirement is  
>OK for us :-).
>
>However I have one concern.  The Logo program intends to produce many  
>interoperable implementations.  But if we have two levels of the logo  
>program (basic and advanced), and everyone can get the basic logo by  
>implementing only some parts of the specification, what does motivate  
>vendors to implement advanced features?
>
>So, the question is, how is it important for NEMO deployment that  
>taking a HoA from a mobile network prefix.  If it is not very  
>important, then the feature can be in the advanced logo requirement  
>only.  But if it is important, we should not have two logo programs.
>
>
>Regards,
>---
>Keiichi SHIMA
>IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net>
>WIDE Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>
>
>
>On 2006/10/30, at 17:00, K.Kawaguchi wrote:
>
>> Hi all and Vijay-san,
>>
>> Thank you for answer.
>> # I'm sorry the delay.
>>
>> To our regret, The IPv6 Logo Committee NEMO staffs cannot  
>> participate in
>> the next meeting. Instead of participation, I made text for the next
>> IETF meeting.
>>
>> We have already gotten some opinions. We hope to obtain the conclusion
>> at the meeting. We want to examine only the conclusion at the meeting,
>> because the meeting have not much time.
>> If you have an additional opinion, please send it to ML before the
>> meeting.
>>
>>
>> Best regards
>> ---
>> Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI
>>
>>
>>
>> "Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo"
>> "Vijay Devarapalli <vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com>" wrote:
>>
>>> K.Kawaguchi wrote:
>>>
>>>>> - HA (Home Agent)
>>>>>  - Router functions defined in "Test Specifications for the IPv6  
>>>>> Core
>>>>>    Protocols" MUST be supported.
>>>>>  - Mobile network prefix registration supporting all of explicit  
>>>>> mode,
>>>>>    implicit mode, home address derived from the Mobile Network  
>>>>> Prefix, and
>>>>>                    
>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>    home address derived from the Home Network Prefix is a Basic  
>>>>> Function (A1).
>>>>>     
>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>>>>> ^^^^^^^^
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>> --
>>>>> * supplementation) keywords
>>>>>   Basic Function (Priority A1)  : It is defined as indispensable  
>>>>> function.
>>>>>                                   It is always to be tested in  
>>>>> Logo.
>>>>>   Advance Function (Priority A2): It is defined as enhanced  
>>>>> feature.
>>>>>                                   It is tested by selection in  
>>>>> Logo.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> RFC3963 has not described which method is a 'MUST'. Therefore,
>>>>> we had equally treated both. However, the operation is possible
>>>>> by either one.  And a lot of venders might implement only one
>>>>> of methods. Now, we think that it is too rich to demand both from
>>>>> all products.
>>>>> We will put the bias. Two alternatives without mandating either
>>>>> make non-interoperable world. So, mandating one is very reasonable.
>>>>> We think naturally that home Address be configured from Home Link
>>>>> Prefix is basic method same as MIPv6.
>>>
>>> sounds good to me.
>>>
>>> Vijay
>>>
>>>
>>> <Logo_NENO_IETF_68th.txt>
>
>
>


--




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T.J. Kniveton wrote:
> Hi Marcelo,
> 
> I removed it not only because of your comment, but also because it's not 
> clear to me (a) what work would be done to address n,n,n ingress 
> filtering

it could be a BCP like document where we describe
how to do the ingress filtering in (n,n,n) case.

> and (b) who is committed to do it. 

oh.. finding people to do the work on the NEMO WG
has never been issue. :) on the contrary people
got tired of waiting for things to move.

> In light of this, I 
> removed it until those things can be clarified.

I think a short document to address this would be
good.

> 
> TJ
> 
> On Nov 4, 2006, at 10:54 PM, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> i agree with the RO part of the charter.
>>
>> just a minor comment...
>>
>> in previous version of the charter was an item about ingress filtering 
>> for multihomed nemos. I made a comment about the issue being about 
>> fault tolerance in the link between the MR and the HA rather than only 
>> ingress filtering. The goal of this comment was to rephrase the item 
>> rather than remove it. I think it may be worthy to work on this if 
>> other folks are interested...
>>
>> Regards, marcelo
>>
>> El 03/11/2006, a las 6:47, T.J. Kniveton escribió:
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> After the latest discussion on the list, I weighed some of our 
>>> options, and then we had a pow-wow between the NEMO chairs, and the 
>>> Area Director. We've come up with a more tightly-constrained charter, 
>>> with goals that I believe are achievable.
>>>
>>> http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/charter2_5.txt
>>>
>>> This charter focuses on route optimization for two scenarios: 
>>> automotive and aeronautical. Initially, we will gather the 
>>> requirements into documents, and then work on solutions based on that.
>>>
>>> The infrastructure-based / distributed home agent type of solution is 
>>> not spelled out in the charter, because I don't want to bias the type 
>>> of solution we can use. However, based on the documents I've seen 
>>> from Will Ivancic, Terry Davis, and their compatriots, that may be a 
>>> good place to start. We need to refine those documents and their 
>>> input into a good requirements doc. I will work with those groups to 
>>> come up with that document.
>>>
>>> The automotive industry working on NEMO solutions is primarily 
>>> located in Japan and Europe. They seem to be in the early stages of 
>>> figuring out how to interact with the IETF, so it may take some extra 
>>> communication with them to be able to import meaningful requirements 
>>> data from them. Thierry will work with those groups on that document.
>>>
>>> As was mentioned on the list, it's not my goal to have to change the 
>>> charter document very frequently, since it's a long process. However, 
>>> if we do discover some important deployment scenarios that aren't 
>>> covered under these concrete examples, we can definitely investigate 
>>> updating the charter.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your patience and see you all soon in San Diego.
>>>
>>> TJ
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> 
> 





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 05 12:12:20 2006
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Hi Thierry,

Thierry Ernst wrote:
> Dear Shima-san,
> 
> You raised an interesting point and I totally agree with the rationale. 
> 
> As a WG, we should make sure that all functionalities are actually
> implemented by at least a few implementors, otherwise the
> functionalities would have to be removed in a later revision of the RFC.

its ok if some features don't get implemented
and we eventually remove them.

> It there could only be one level of the ready logo program, this would
> rather mean that all features should be part of the ready logo program
> in order for an implementation to qualify for it. 

I don't think we should force the IPv6 ready logo
program to include all features.

Otherwise, yes, we
> take the risk that some features are not implemented. If that happens,
> we would wonder what was the reason behind all the work we make to add
> more features.

thats normal. when a WG develops a solution on the
IETF, it is hard to say what will get implemented
and deployed.

> I think it would be nice if all implementors would make their point
> about what is needed to deploy RFC 3963 (this is linked with another
> discussion, then), and what has been implemented / is under going on
> their side.

as the Basic NEMO spec moves from a Proposed
Standard to Draft Standard, this happens
automatically. any feature in the RFC that does not
have multiple interoperable implementations is
removed.

Vijay




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 05 17:19:04 2006
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From: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Charter proposal..
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 23:18:21 +0100
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Hi T.J.

El 05/11/2006, a las 9:06, T.J. Kniveton escribi=F3:

> Hi Marcelo,
>
> I removed it not only because of your comment, but also because it's=20=

> not clear to me (a) what work would be done to address n,n,n ingress=20=

> filtering,

my understanding was that the goal was to have a more detailed =20
description of what is included in the appendix of the multihoming=20
document and see if we need some additional work to make the appraoch=20
described work...


>  and (b) who is committed to do it.

I personally i am willing to work on this and i think that some (if not=20=

all) other authors from the multihoming docuemtn are also interested in=20=

working on this...

but again, this only makes sense if some other folks of the wg think=20
this is relevant/interesting

regards, marcelo

>  In light of this, I removed it until those things can be clarified.
>
> TJ
>
> On Nov 4, 2006, at 10:54 PM, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> i agree with the RO part of the charter.
>>
>> just a minor comment...
>>
>> in previous version of the charter was an item about ingress=20
>> filtering for multihomed nemos. I made a comment about the issue=20
>> being about fault tolerance in the link between the MR and the HA=20
>> rather than only ingress filtering. The goal of this comment was to=20=

>> rephrase the item rather than remove it. I think it may be worthy to=20=

>> work on this if other folks are interested...
>>
>> Regards, marcelo
>>
>> El 03/11/2006, a las 6:47, T.J. Kniveton escribi=F3:
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> After the latest discussion on the list, I weighed some of our=20
>>> options, and then we had a pow-wow between the NEMO chairs, and the=20=

>>> Area Director. We've come up with a more tightly-constrained=20
>>> charter, with goals that I believe are achievable.
>>>
>>> http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/charter2_5.txt
>>>
>>> This charter focuses on route optimization for two scenarios:=20
>>> automotive and aeronautical. Initially, we will gather the=20
>>> requirements into documents, and then work on solutions based on=20
>>> that.
>>>
>>> The infrastructure-based / distributed home agent type of solution=20=

>>> is not spelled out in the charter, because I don't want to bias the=20=

>>> type of solution we can use. However, based on the documents I've=20
>>> seen from Will Ivancic, Terry Davis, and their compatriots, that may=20=

>>> be a good place to start. We need to refine those documents and=20
>>> their input into a good requirements doc. I will work with those=20
>>> groups to come up with that document.
>>>
>>> The automotive industry working on NEMO solutions is primarily=20
>>> located in Japan and Europe. They seem to be in the early stages of=20=

>>> figuring out how to interact with the IETF, so it may take some=20
>>> extra communication with them to be able to import meaningful=20
>>> requirements data from them. Thierry will work with those groups on=20=

>>> that document.
>>>
>>> As was mentioned on the list, it's not my goal to have to change the=20=

>>> charter document very frequently, since it's a long process.=20
>>> However, if we do discover some important deployment scenarios that=20=

>>> aren't covered under these concrete examples, we can definitely=20
>>> investigate updating the charter.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your patience and see you all soon in San Diego.
>>>
>>> TJ
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 05 19:32:23 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Charter proposal..
From: Chan-Wah NG <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
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Hello all,

On Sun, 2006-11-05 at 23:18 +0100, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
> Hi T.J.
>=20
> El 05/11/2006, a las 9:06, T.J. Kniveton escribi=F3:
>=20
> > Hi Marcelo,
> >
> > I removed it not only because of your comment, but also because it's=20
> > not clear to me (a) what work would be done to address n,n,n ingress=20
> > filtering,
>=20
> my understanding was that the goal was to have a more detailed =20
> description of what is included in the appendix of the multihoming=20
> document and see if we need some additional work to make the appraoch=20
> described work...
>=20

That's my understanding as well ...  The base idea is already there in
the appendix, all we need to do is to formalize it, and polish it abit
on some of the rough edges.

I am pretty surpised by the omission of the work from the charter as
well ...  it has been raised a few times, there is no objections I can
see.

>=20
> >  and (b) who is committed to do it.
>=20
> I personally i am willing to work on this and i think that some (if not=
=20
> all) other authors from the multihoming docuemtn are also interested in=
=20
> working on this...
>=20
> but again, this only makes sense if some other folks of the wg think=20
> this is relevant/interesting
>=20

What Vijay says (in another response) on "people geeting tired of
waiting" is quite true too ... ;)

I am definitely committed to doing this work if the WG thinks it is
worthwhile.

/rgds
/cwng






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Dear all,

Please find the agenda below. Any potential update would be posted on
http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/agenda/nemo.txt



Agenda for the NEMO WG meeting, IETF67 November 5-10 2006
San Diego, USA 
NEMO WG page: http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/nemo-charter.html
NEMO Additional Page: http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/

Thursday, November 09 1510-1610 Afternoon Session II Grance C
Chairs: TJ Kniveton & Thierry Ernst

1. Welcome, agenda bashing ....................................... 05 mins
   Chairs 

2. WG documents status ........................................... 10 mins
   Chairs

   http://tools.ietf.org/wg/nemo/


3. Final version of new charter .................................. 20 mins
   Chairs
 
   Current version of new charter
   http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/charter2_5.txt


4. Aviation Industry Requirements & Issues ....................... 20 mins
   Terry Davis & William Ivancic

    Multi-Domained, Multi-Homed Mobile Networks
    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ivancic-mobile-platforms-problem-00.txt

    Aviation Global Internet Operations Requirements          
    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-davis-aviationreq-00.txt
  

NEMO Chairs.




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her the very day after her
"but does lydia know nothing of this? can she be ignorant of what you=20=
and jane seem so well to

by that time reached it also, and, holding out a letter, which she=20=
instinctively took, said, with a look of

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"but you blame me for having spoken so warmly of wickham?"

"certainly not."
"pray, my dear aunt, what is the difference in matrimonial affairs,=20=
between the mercenary and

elizabeth soon saw that she was herself closely watched by miss bingley,=20=
and that she could not





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 07 15:55:34 2006
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Subject: AW: [nemo] NEMO WG Agenda
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Hi Thierry, TJ
=20
I understand, that with the Agenda you will address the most important =
things as charter and practical requirements first.
But how and when do you plan to discuss all the draft-ideas ?
=20
Anyway NEMO should have more time.
=20
Proposal: Thursday, 9:00-11:30 session for rtgarea is canceled.
wouldn't that be a chance for others like NEMO to occupy that slot to =
gain more time ?
=20
Erich

________________________________

Von: Thierry Ernst [mailto:thierry.ernst@inria.fr]
Gesendet: Di 07.11.2006 00:58
An: ml-nemo
Betreff: [nemo] NEMO WG Agenda




Dear all,

Please find the agenda below. Any potential update would be posted on
http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/agenda/nemo.txt







From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 07 16:35:26 2006
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 22:35:08 +0100
From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
To: "Plasser, Erich" <erich.plasser@siemens.com>
Subject: Re: AW: [nemo] NEMO WG Agenda
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Dear Erich,

We don't want to discuss solution drafts at this point in time; what we
need to discuss first are deployment issues and use cases requirements.
But for this meeting, we will focus on explaining the modifications in
the new charter and aeronautical requirements (we don't have
requirements yets from other use cases).

So, even though there is some cancellation, we don't think additional
time is needed. In any case, a WG cancellation is not an indecation of a
possibility to get the time for another WG as it could cause conflicts
(you forgot that netlmm is scheduled at the same time).

On the other hand, you are free to raise discussion on the mailing list about your
draft.

Regards,
Thierry



On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 21:54:42 +0100
"Plasser, Erich" <erich.plasser@siemens.com> wrote:

>Hi Thierry, TJ
> 
>I understand, that with the Agenda you will address the most important things as charter and practical requirements first.
>But how and when do you plan to discuss all the draft-ideas ?
> 
>Anyway NEMO should have more time.
> 
>Proposal: Thursday, 9:00-11:30 session for rtgarea is canceled.
>wouldn't that be a chance for others like NEMO to occupy that slot to gain more time ?
> 
>Erich
>
>________________________________
>
>Von: Thierry Ernst [mailto:thierry.ernst@inria.fr]
>Gesendet: Di 07.11.2006 00:58
>An: ml-nemo
>Betreff: [nemo] NEMO WG Agenda
>
>
>
>
>Dear all,
>
>Please find the agenda below. Any potential update would be posted on
>http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/agenda/nemo.txt
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Thierry ERNST, PhD
http://www.nautilus6.org/~thierry
IETF NEMO WG Chair, IETF MonAmi6 Chair, Nautilus6 Chair
--
INRIA Rocquencourt Project-Team IMARA, France.
+33 1 39 63 59 30 (office)





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Hi Chairs and all,

I explain the selection and the classification of test item on the Logo
test specification in section 7 more. And I add the Idea-5 in section 5.

We want the evidence of the consensus/Idea that IETF NEMO WG agreed.
If possible, please consolidate it at the meeting.

---
7.  Supplementary explanation

   The Logo test specification doesn't take all the descriptions of RFC.
   The functions with strong demand in RFC are included in the Logo
   test. (i.e. 'MUST','SHOULD' and an affirmative sentence in RFC. )
   Not only 'MUST' but also 'SHOULD' is contained because the Logo
   standard was set to a high-quality interoperability. (Logo such as
   IPv6 Core and IPsec is similar too.)

   Logo is classified from the necessity of the function into the Basic
   Function and the Advanced Function. The Basic Function takes a
   function necessary to ensure a minimum interoperability. The Advanced
   Function is necessary for securing the interoperability of a higher
   function. The Advanced Function of Logo is proof of a higher
   function.

   In the Logo test specification of RFC3775(MIP6), the home
   registration and the payloads packet tunneling were assumed to be the
   Basic Function. The dynamic home agents address discovery, the mobile
   prefix discovery, the return routabiliuty, and the returning home
   were assumed to be the Advanced Function. (This function is the same
   classification into NEMO.)


   How is the Home Address setting classified in NEMO basic?
   - MUST/SHOULD MR be able to configure home address from home network
     prefix?
   - MUST/SHOULD MR be able to configure home address from mobile
     network prefix?
   - Is it necessary for securing a minimum interconnectivity?

   Some opinions seem to support the home address configuring from home
   network prefix. On the other hand, no opinion supports the home
   address configuring from mobile network prefix. The following ideas
   are added.

   Idea-5) Although home address configured from home network prefix is
           the Basic Function, home address configured from mobile
           network prefix is out of the Logo. In this case, Logo
           candidates are required to support at least the Basic
           Function. We can certificate interoperability among all the
           NEMO products with the Basic Function.

   The Logo test will be renewed if the RFC is renewed in the future.
   That is, if the demand rises in the future, it will be added to the
   Advanced function or the Basic Function. (Of course, new Logo is
   distinguished from old Logo.)
---


Best regards
---
Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI



"Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo"
"Vijay Devarapalli <vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com>" wrote:

> Hi Thierry,
> 
> Thierry Ernst wrote:
> > Dear Shima-san,
> > 
> > You raised an interesting point and I totally agree with the rationale. 
> > 
> > As a WG, we should make sure that all functionalities are actually
> > implemented by at least a few implementors, otherwise the
> > functionalities would have to be removed in a later revision of the RFC.
> 
> its ok if some features don't get implemented
> and we eventually remove them.
> 
> > It there could only be one level of the ready logo program, this would
> > rather mean that all features should be part of the ready logo program
> > in order for an implementation to qualify for it. 
> 
> I don't think we should force the IPv6 ready logo
> program to include all features.
> 
> Otherwise, yes, we
> > take the risk that some features are not implemented. If that happens,
> > we would wonder what was the reason behind all the work we make to add
> > more features.
> 
> thats normal. when a WG develops a solution on the
> IETF, it is hard to say what will get implemented
> and deployed.
> 
> > I think it would be nice if all implementors would make their point
> > about what is needed to deploy RFC 3963 (this is linked with another
> > discussion, then), and what has been implemented / is under going on
> > their side.
> 
> as the Basic NEMO spec moves from a Proposed
> Standard to Draft Standard, this happens
> automatically. any feature in the RFC that does not
> have multiple interoperable implementations is
> removed.
> 
> Vijay
> 
> 
> 





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K.Kawaguchi wrote:
> Hi Chairs and all,
>
> I explain the selection and the classification of test item on the Logo
> test specification in section 7 more. And I add the Idea-5 in section 5.
>
> We want the evidence of the consensus/Idea that IETF NEMO WG agreed.
> If possible, please consolidate it at the meeting.
>   
Hi,

The list of items to go into your testing program is not a work item for 
NEMO, and although you can gather informal opinions from the list, there 
would not be working group consensus provided to any Logo or testing 
program run by an independent entity. It would be up to you to decide 
what features you want to certify for your Logo program.

TJ





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 08 17:33:21 2006
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From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA <ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 07:32:37 +0900
To: T.J. Kniveton <tj@kniveton.com>
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Hi TJ

On 2006/11/09, at 4:32, T.J. Kniveton wrote:

> K.Kawaguchi wrote:
>> Hi Chairs and all,
>>
>> I explain the selection and the classification of test item on the  
>> Logo
>> test specification in section 7 more. And I add the Idea-5 in  
>> section 5.
>>
>> We want the evidence of the consensus/Idea that IETF NEMO WG agreed.
>> If possible, please consolidate it at the meeting.
>>
> Hi,
>
> The list of items to go into your testing program is not a work  
> item for NEMO, and although you can gather informal opinions from  
> the list, there would not be working group consensus provided to  
> any Logo or testing program run by an independent entity. It would  
> be up to you to decide what features you want to certify for your  
> Logo program.

Regardless of logo, it is true that the RFC 3963 is vague on this.
MR can support either one or both configurations.
I'm not sure whether 3963 will take "Hoa from home prefix" as a  
default configuration in future revision,

Regarding to the logo, you can pick one of configuration as a default.
But before making such decision, you should check the below document  
too.
Aggregated home network is one example to support HoA from MNP.
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-home-network- 
models-06.txt

The current SHISA implementation supports only HoA from the home prefix,
but we knew it's easily extend to support both case.

regards,
ryuji




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 09 03:55:17 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
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Hi,

RYUJI WAKIKAWA wrote:
> Hi TJ
> 
> On 2006/11/09, at 4:32, T.J. Kniveton wrote:
> 
> > K.Kawaguchi wrote:
> >> Hi Chairs and all,
> >>
> >> I explain the selection and the classification of test item on the  
> >> Logo
> >> test specification in section 7 more. And I add the Idea-5 in  
> >> section 5.
> >>
> >> We want the evidence of the consensus/Idea that IETF NEMO WG agreed.
> >> If possible, please consolidate it at the meeting.
> >>
> > Hi,
> >
> > The list of items to go into your testing program is not a work  
> > item for NEMO, and although you can gather informal opinions from  
> > the list, there would not be working group consensus provided to  
> > any Logo or testing program run by an independent entity. It would  
> > be up to you to decide what features you want to certify for your  
> > Logo program.

I consented. The decision of the Logo program is the independent work of
us. Also, we will keep participating in NEMO WG according to the outline
of IETF.


> 
> Regardless of logo, it is true that the RFC 3963 is vague on this.
> MR can support either one or both configurations.
> I'm not sure whether 3963 will take "Hoa from home prefix" as a  
> default configuration in future revision,
> 
> Regarding to the logo, you can pick one of configuration as a default.
> But before making such decision, you should check the below document  
> too.
> Aggregated home network is one example to support HoA from MNP.
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-home-network- 
> models-06.txt

Yes. I am referring to this draft. I see that the product package of a
different specification exists according to those home network models.
Also in the opinion that has been obtained before, a lot of developers
seem to be advancing development by one method.

> 
> The current SHISA implementation supports only HoA from the home prefix,
> but we knew it's easily extend to support both case.

The product that can achieve both provides high applicability to the
career and the user. It is one advantage for the product.

As a result, I think that we will separately treat each home address
setting method.


Best regards
---
Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 09 18:51:06 2006
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Mobility Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Network Mobility Support Terminology
	Author(s)	: T. Ernst, H. Lach
	Filename	: draft-ietf-nemo-terminology-06.txt
	Pages		: 26
	Date		: 2006-11-9
	
This document defines a terminology for discussing network mobility
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
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This draft is a work item of the Network Mobility Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Network Mobility Support Terminology
	Author(s)	: T. Ernst, H. Lach
	Filename	: draft-ietf-nemo-terminology-06.txt
	Pages		: 26
	Date		: 2006-11-9
	
This document defines a terminology for discussing network mobility
   (NEMO) issues and solution requirements.

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This draft is a work item of the Network Mobility Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Network Mobility Support Goals and Requirements
	Author(s)	: T. Ernst
	Filename	: draft-ietf-nemo-requirements-06.txt
	Pages		: 18
	Date		: 2006-11-9
	
Network mobility arises when a router connecting a network to the
   Internet dynamically changes its point of attachment to the Internet
   thereby causing the reachability of the said network to be changed in
   relation to the fixed Internet topology.  Such kind of network is
   referred to as a mobile network.  With appropriate mechanisms,
   sessions established between nodes in the mobile network and the
   global Internet can be maintained after the mobile router changes its
   point of attachment.  This document outlines the goals expected from
   network mobility support and defines the requirements that must be
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	Title		: Network Mobility Support Goals and Requirements
	Author(s)	: T. Ernst
	Filename	: draft-ietf-nemo-requirements-06.txt
	Pages		: 18
	Date		: 2006-11-9
	
Network mobility arises when a router connecting a network to the
   Internet dynamically changes its point of attachment to the Internet
   thereby causing the reachability of the said network to be changed in
   relation to the fixed Internet topology.  Such kind of network is
   referred to as a mobile network.  With appropriate mechanisms,
   sessions established between nodes in the mobile network and the
   global Internet can be maintained after the mobile router changes its
   point of attachment.  This document outlines the goals expected from
   network mobility support and defines the requirements that must be
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 09 20:12:05 2006
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Subject: [nemo] Slides from aeronautical and space reqs
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Just stumbled across the slides on the NEMO WG meeting about 
aeronautical and space reqs.

http://www.multicasttech.com/mpi/

Alex




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 10 05:05:32 2006
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:03:59 +0900
From: Romain KUNTZ <kuntz@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
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Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
References: <452ABB53.3020104@azairenet.com><200610311000.FAE39546.XHBVJBLU@ysknet.co.jp><FC43BE09-C254-4B5C-8FD3-6CF9D88B9131@iijlab.net><20061105174404.1b42e076.thierry.ernst@inria.fr><454E1A8B.4090607@azairenet.com>	<200611081513.ADD60469.HJVBULBX@ysknet.co.jp>	<455230C6.4080507@kniveton.com>
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Hi,

Being able to register an HoA from a MNP may be more important on the HA
than on the MR, for interoperability purposes. This could bring a new
option: being a basic feature on the HA, and a advanced one on the MR.

I personally like this way of configuring the MR, as the HA does not
need to deal with 2 prefixes anymore (one to build the MR's HoA, and one
MNP to delegate to the MR), and just need to delegate an MNP to the MR.

FYI the NEPL implementation is designed to support also HoA from MNP,
although a small bug prevents to do so in the current version (could get
it working with a small fix).

Regards,

-- 
Romain KUNTZ
kuntz@sfc.wide.ad.jp


RYUJI WAKIKAWA wrote:
> Hi TJ
> 
> On 2006/11/09, at 4:32, T.J. Kniveton wrote:
> 
>> K.Kawaguchi wrote:
>>> Hi Chairs and all,
>>>
>>> I explain the selection and the classification of test item on the Logo
>>> test specification in section 7 more. And I add the Idea-5 in section 5.
>>>
>>> We want the evidence of the consensus/Idea that IETF NEMO WG agreed.
>>> If possible, please consolidate it at the meeting.
>>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The list of items to go into your testing program is not a work item 
>> for NEMO, and although you can gather informal opinions from the list, 
>> there would not be working group consensus provided to any Logo or 
>> testing program run by an independent entity. It would be up to you to 
>> decide what features you want to certify for your Logo program.
> 
> Regardless of logo, it is true that the RFC 3963 is vague on this.
> MR can support either one or both configurations.
> I'm not sure whether 3963 will take "Hoa from home prefix" as a default 
> configuration in future revision,
> 
> Regarding to the logo, you can pick one of configuration as a default.
> But before making such decision, you should check the below document too.
> Aggregated home network is one example to support HoA from MNP.
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-home-network-models-06.txt 
> 
> 
> The current SHISA implementation supports only HoA from the home prefix,
> but we knew it's easily extend to support both case.
> 
> regards,
> ryuji
>





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Subject: Question From eBay Member #180011018241
From: eBay Member <member@ebay.com>
Reply-To: UseTheYellowButton@ebay.com
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:57:09 -0500
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<TD noWrap width="1%"><A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt"><IMG alt=eBay src="http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/logos/ebay_95x39.gif" border=0></A></TD>
<TD vAlign=bottom><FONT face="verdana, sans-serif" color=#666666 size=1><B>eBay sent this message to Niculescu Viali (riscsicastig1).</B><BR>Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay. <A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank><FONT color=#000099>Learn more</FONT></A>. </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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<H1 style="MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 14pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 2px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial,"><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=4><B>Question about Item -- Respond Now</B></FONT> </H1></TD>
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<TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 8px"><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2>eBay sent this message on behalf of an eBay member through My Messages. Responses sent using email will go to the eBay member directly and will include your email address. </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD>
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<TD bgColor=#e2e0e0> <SPAN class=SectionTitle>Question from vriscsicastig1</SPAN></TD></TR>
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<TD width=5><IMG height=1 src="http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=5></TD>
<TD noWrap colSpan=2><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2><B><A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank><FONT color=#000099>riscsicastig</FONT></A>(<A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt"><FONT color=#000099>3731</FONT><IMG height=25 src="http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/iconYellowStar_25x25.gif" width=25 align=absMiddle border=0></A>)</B></FONT></TD></TR>
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<TD><IMG height=1 src="http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=1></TD>
<TD noWrap width="20%"><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=1>Positive feedback:</FONT></TD>
<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=1>100 %</FONT></TD></TR>
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<TD><IMG height=1 src="http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=1></TD>
<TD noWrap width="20%"><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=1>Member since:</FONT></TD>
<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=1>July-31-04</FONT></TD></TR>
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<TD><IMG height=1 src="http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=1></TD>
<TD noWrap width="20%"><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=1>Location:</FONT></TD>
<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=1>NY, United States</FONT></TD></TR>
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<TD><IMG height=1 src="http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=1></TD>
<TD noWrap width="20%"><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=1>Registered on:</FONT></TD>
<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=1>www.ebay.com</FONT></TD></TR>
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<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2>Item: (<A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank><FONT color=#000099>180011018241</FONT></A>)</FONT> </TD></TR>
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<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2>This message was sent while the listing was <B><A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt">active</A></B>.</FONT></TD></TR>
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<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2>tossonika is a <B><A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt">potential buyer</A></B>.</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR>
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<P><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2>Hello Seller.</FONT></P><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2></FONT>
<P><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2></P>
<P>I like your item. Please tell me the price, the method of payment and about shipping.</P>
<P>Do you accept Paypal or what method. I will wait your answer.</P>
<P>Thank's<BR></P></FONT></TD>
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<TD><B><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2>Respond to this question</FONT></B></TD></TR>
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<TD><A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank border="0"><IMG height=32 alt="Respond Now" src="http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/buttons/btnRespondNow.gif" width=120 border=0></A></TD></TR>
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<TD><I><FONT face="verdana, sans-serif" color=gray size=1>Responses in My Messages will not include your email address.</FONT></I></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR>
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<TD noWrap bgColor=#f4f4f4 colSpan=2><FONT class=BodyFontStrong style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"><B><A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt">Respond Now</A></B></FONT></TD></TR>
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<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2>See the description of the object:</FONT></TD></TR>
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<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2><U><A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt"><FONT color=#003399>http://cgi.ebay.com/mejtu-tl-ridyg-m4u-antia-nort-guk-nrg-judoa-jjki_W0QQitemZ9132524581QQcategoryZ126136QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem</FONT></A></U></FONT></TD></TR>
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<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2>Thank you for using eBay.</FONT></TD></TR>
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<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" color=#003399 size=2><A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt">htp://www.ebay.com/</A></FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD>
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<TD bgColor=#cad2dd><A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt"><IMG height=25 alt="Marketplace Safety Tip" src="http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/securityCenter/imgShield_25x25.gif" width=25 border=0></A></TD>
<TD noWrap bgColor=#cad2dd><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif" size=-1><B><A style="COLOR: #000000; TEXT-DECORATION: none" href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank>Marketplace Safety Tip</A></B></FONT> </TD>
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<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2><B>Always remember to complete your transactions on eBay - it's the safer way to trade.</B><BR><BR>Is this message an offer to buy your item directly through email without winning the item on eBay? If so, please help make the eBay marketplace safer by reporting it to us. These "outside of eBay" transactions may be unsafe and are against eBay policy. <A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank><FONT color=#000099>Learn more about trading safely</FONT></A>. </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR>
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<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" size=2>Is this email inappropriate? Does it violate <A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank><FONT color=#000099>eBay policy</FONT></A>? Help protect the Community by <A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank><FONT color=#000099>reporting it</FONT></A>. </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD>
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<TD><FONT face="Arial, Verdana" color=#666666 size=1>Learn how you can protect yourself from spoof (fake) emails at: <BR><A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank><FONT color=#000099>http://pages.ebay.com/education/spooftutorial</FONT></A><BR><BR>This eBay notice was sent to <A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank><FONT color=#000099>member@ebay.com</FONT></A> on behalf of another eBay member through the eBay platform and in accordance with our Privacy Policy. If you would like to receive this email in text format, change your <A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank><FONT color=#000099>notification preferences</FONT></A>. <BR><BR>See our Privacy Policy and User Agreement if you have questions about eBay's communication policies. <BR>Privacy Policy: <A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank><FONT color=#000099>http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/privacy-policy.html</FONT></A><BR>User Agreement: <A href="http://signinebay5.land.ru/eBaycomasapiiDLLsghDLLIsapiuhdsjbuserdkjLogogininhuseriafterpassjsdfjdsfksdfhoreoiuiiuoeruiuioyouehbjcgvu348fsdfkjhfyi7sufyjdgs7iudfy4387wrfusjdfhdsfhjdhgfdisgduf4yw78eurfyugdjsxzncjhjery7rfuyfdhgbrdrtg5etgrv54.txt" target=_blank><FONT color=#000099>http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html</FONT></A><BR><BR>Copyright © 2006 eBay, Inc. All Rights Reserved.<BR>Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners.<BR>eBay and the eBay logo are registered trademarks or trademarks of eBay, Inc.<BR>eBay is located at 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125.<BR></FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>






From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 10 17:08:29 2006
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:51:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>
To: Romain KUNTZ <kuntz@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
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Hi Romain,


On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Romain KUNTZ wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Being able to register an HoA from a MNP may be more important on the HA
> than on the MR, for interoperability purposes. This could bring a new
> option: being a basic feature on the HA, and a advanced one on the MR.
>

Using a HoA from MNP introduces some interesting situation, when
the MR returns home. The MNP is anchored at the HA and when the
MR returns home, there is no routing state for that prefix at
the HA. At home, is the MR a bridge ? Is the prefix split between
HA and MR and MR and itself ? If some one case fix the text in
3963 and address all the issues, I'm ok supporting this. Currently,
we dont support this.



> I personally like this way of configuring the MR, as the HA does not
> need to deal with 2 prefixes anymore (one to build the MR's HoA, and one
> MNP to delegate to the MR), and just need to delegate an MNP to the MR.
>

But, at a cost of configuration complexity. If are clear as how the
routing/configuration looks when the MR is at home, in this scenario,
I'm ok with this.


> FYI the NEPL implementation is designed to support also HoA from MNP,
> although a small bug prevents to do so in the current version (could get
> it working with a small fix).
>
> Regards,
>
> -- 
> Romain KUNTZ
> kuntz@sfc.wide.ad.jp
>
>
> RYUJI WAKIKAWA wrote:
>>  Hi TJ
>>
>>  On 2006/11/09, at 4:32, T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>> 
>> >  K.Kawaguchi wrote:
>> > >  Hi Chairs and all,
>> > > 
>> > >  I explain the selection and the classification of test item on the 
>> > >  Logo
>> > >  test specification in section 7 more. And I add the Idea-5 in section 
>> > >  5.
>> > > 
>> > >  We want the evidence of the consensus/Idea that IETF NEMO WG agreed.
>> > >  If possible, please consolidate it at the meeting.
>> > > 
>> >  Hi,
>> > 
>> >  The list of items to go into your testing program is not a work item for 
>> >  NEMO, and although you can gather informal opinions from the list, there 
>> >  would not be working group consensus provided to any Logo or testing 
>> >  program run by an independent entity. It would be up to you to decide 
>> >  what features you want to certify for your Logo program.
>>
>>  Regardless of logo, it is true that the RFC 3963 is vague on this.
>>  MR can support either one or both configurations.
>>  I'm not sure whether 3963 will take "Hoa from home prefix" as a default
>>  configuration in future revision,
>>
>>  Regarding to the logo, you can pick one of configuration as a default.
>>  But before making such decision, you should check the below document too.
>>  Aggregated home network is one example to support HoA from MNP.
>>  http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-home-network-models-06.txt
>>
>>  The current SHISA implementation supports only HoA from the home prefix,
>>  but we knew it's easily extend to support both case.
>>
>>  regards,
>>  ryuji
>> 
>
>




From mzjhwlsdh@oshawa-bc.com Sat Nov 11 04:31:19 2006
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Subject: Re: Kojo Nnamdi Show has
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: mzjhwlsdh@oshawa-bc.com=20
  Sent: Sunday, November 03:09:48 PM
  Subject: Kojo Nnamdi Show has


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publishers is.
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or protect against prying am entry or. Wamu or Kojo Nnamdi Show!
  Cited or chapter Tsos there comma title books continues. Calkins in =
which cited chapter a.
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Lisalee in Company llc Dynamist Blog Stuff.
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excerpt October issue of Mens.
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  Drilled Toll Free Local Live Answering?
  Who a just cant get am enough in me talking my in Wamus. Simply of =
having list sources adds reference. Cam am high security barrel is of =
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href=3D"mailto:nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org">nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org</=
A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 03:09:48 =
PM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Kojo Nnamdi Show =
has</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hectic is full interviews =
Substance.<BR>Pages or on=20
ltlt. Extension Extenda Truck box extender.<BR>More am Removable a bed =
Extend.=20
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Free Local=20
Live or Answering.<BR>Dont like spend pages on ltlt Previous a. Issuein =
other=20
news ive easily?<BR>Just cant get enough me a talking my am Wamus a =
Wamu. Book=20
Published am by Lisalee in Company llc Dynamist Blog Stuff.<BR>Against =
prying=20
entry. Your vehicle alowing you to keep in valuables is. Hours real =
person am=20
about answers phone am pm.<BR>Links simply having list sources adds =
reference in=20
commercial publishers is.<BR>Hitch am accessory Little Love Book. High =
of=20
security barrel is sure or protect against prying am entry or. Wamu or =
Kojo=20
Nnamdi Show!<BR>Cited or chapter Tsos there comma title books continues. =
Calkins=20
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in.<BR>Adds=20
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in=20
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days a=20
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simply=20
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Answering?<BR>Who a just cant get am enough in me talking my in Wamus. =
Simply of=20
having list sources adds reference. Cam am high security barrel is of =
sure=20
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From wkxlrigykhr@organo.com Sat Nov 11 21:44:18 2006
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From:	"perdu" <wkxlrigykhr@organo.com>
To: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org
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Subject: Re: Delaware Trail Deads
Date:	Sun, 12 Nov 2006 03:43:49 +0100
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: wkxlrigykhr@organo.com=20
  Sent: Monday, November 01:37:43 AM
  Subject: Delaware Trail Deads


  Slick styling dance routines or tidy line ersatz.
  Drones backed includes is John Sellekaers. Thomas Pynchon William Gass =
am Kathy or Acker awareness a style!
  Power Football Baseball is? Instead comes across bright am compact of =
spite daring melodic of.
  Former poet laureate Billy closest poetry. Mpthose or Peabodys is =
Shortiesin Walter Mossberg Microsofts digital.
  Eulogizes Rainer Mariamy Brightest Diamonds or. Couldnt is maintain =
interest topic those musical legacy am Depeche Modesee! Short storynovel =
idea am writer fast quite understand a between in?
  Bosnian am Breton Bulgarian Catalan Chinese Simplified Croatian Czech. =
Eustaches is cult la or.
  Chooses Portlands or Considered.
  Locations close poles also calculated Data Exchange.
  Print both formats Listen Quran Suras is Ayaats location huge. =
Graphical a format until next or dynamic interface.
  Business a Loose fur. Between couldnt maintain a interest topic those =
musical.
  Mondebrian Fleshwhen imagined mouth while forming language try impart. =
Eustaches is cult la or.
  Drones backed includes is John Sellekaers.
  He leans or forward of. Short storynovel idea am writer fast or quite =
is.
  Fancy a Dresden of Dolls earlier yes Virginia is Alcoholic. Wonderful =
stuff unless likely focused?
  Soccer Cycling World.
  Fancy a Dresden of Dolls earlier yes Virginia is Alcoholic. Start need =
existthe changes acquired is. Negation Tamago a remarkably clean noise =
usually?
  Bright is compact spite daring melodic structure subtle. Christmas =
brand teeth deadpanned enforcer Jody Shelley flashing?
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dnemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org">nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org</=
A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dwkxlrigykhr@organo.com=20
href=3D"mailto:wkxlrigykhr@organo.com">wkxlrigykhr@organo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 01:37:43 =
AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Delaware Trail =
Deads</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Slick styling dance routines or tidy =
line=20
ersatz.<BR>Drones backed includes is John Sellekaers. Thomas Pynchon =
William=20
Gass am Kathy or Acker awareness a style!<BR>Power Football Baseball is? =
Instead=20
comes across bright am compact of spite daring melodic of.<BR>Former =
poet=20
laureate Billy closest poetry. Mpthose or Peabodys is Shortiesin Walter =
Mossberg=20
Microsofts digital.<BR>Eulogizes Rainer Mariamy Brightest Diamonds or. =
Couldnt=20
is maintain interest topic those musical legacy am Depeche Modesee! =
Short=20
storynovel idea am writer fast quite understand a between in?<BR>Bosnian =
am=20
Breton Bulgarian Catalan Chinese Simplified Croatian Czech. Eustaches is =
cult la=20
or.<BR>Chooses Portlands or Considered.<BR>Locations close poles also =
calculated=20
Data Exchange.<BR>Print both formats Listen Quran Suras is Ayaats =
location huge.=20
Graphical a format until next or dynamic interface.<BR>Business a Loose =
fur.=20
Between couldnt maintain a interest topic those musical.<BR>Mondebrian =
Fleshwhen=20
imagined mouth while forming language try impart. Eustaches is cult la=20
or.<BR>Drones backed includes is John Sellekaers.<BR>He leans or forward =
of.=20
Short storynovel idea am writer fast or quite is.<BR>Fancy a Dresden of =
Dolls=20
earlier yes Virginia is Alcoholic. Wonderful stuff unless likely=20
focused?<BR>Soccer Cycling World.<BR>Fancy a Dresden of Dolls earlier =
yes=20
Virginia is Alcoholic. Start need existthe changes acquired is. Negation =
Tamago=20
a remarkably clean noise usually?<BR>Bright is compact spite daring =
melodic=20
structure subtle. Christmas brand teeth deadpanned enforcer Jody Shelley =

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From wqjwdztn@oxbodies.com Sun Nov 12 01:41:52 2006
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From:	"RAMGFX" <wqjwdztn@oxbodies.com>
To: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org
References: <000c01c70625$9b449c30$00000000@msef85af21a66b>
Subject: Re: full motion
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: wqjwdztn@oxbodies.com=20
  Sent: Monday, November 05:33:15 AM
  Subject: full motion


  Mb Ramgfx a vid in Card!
  Different nations Germany Great Britain United States or and Soviet. =
Range Battle am sea airevery speaks its native.
  Games Size Firstdate a Posted Decmin Ghzmem mb Ramgfx.
  Union across missions. Most in powerful ground units weapons artillery =
Conquer special Usas? Sea airevery speaks its.
  Study enemy hour! Allies use the German offensive.
  Mb Ramgfx vid Card or Game European Frontline is. Mission full or =
motion engine several kind.
  Ghzmem mb Ramgfx or vid.
  Create mapsday Night of cicle. Mission full or motion engine several =
kind.
  Ussr each of them exclusive buildings techtrees. Conquer special Usas =
elite soldiers army. On defensive Britains?
  Resources which takes a place am in World ii. Russians of firepower =
land air seagame in.
  Hours replaying in acts Second historical videos before every. Air =
seagame oil is usa Ussr!
  Create mapsday Night cicle affects.
  Different nations Germany Great Britain United States or and Soviet.
  Usa Ussr each of them.
  Or knock em dead Russians am firepower.
  Of them exclusive.
  Or knock em dead Russians am firepower.
  Detection or knock a em of. Hours replaying acts Second historical =
videos before every. Union across missions campaigns a Axis in Allies a! =
Roomssave view replays features study enemy.
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dnemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org">nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org</=
A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dwqjwdztn@oxbodies.com=20
href=3D"mailto:wqjwdztn@oxbodies.com">wqjwdztn@oxbodies.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 05:33:15 =
AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> full motion</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mb Ramgfx a vid in Card!<BR>Different =
nations=20
Germany Great Britain United States or and Soviet. Range Battle am sea =
airevery=20
speaks its native.<BR>Games Size Firstdate a Posted Decmin Ghzmem mb=20
Ramgfx.<BR>Union across missions. Most in powerful ground units weapons=20
artillery Conquer special Usas? Sea airevery speaks its.<BR>Study enemy =
hour!=20
Allies use the German offensive.<BR>Mb Ramgfx vid Card or Game European=20
Frontline is. Mission full or motion engine several kind.<BR>Ghzmem mb =
Ramgfx or=20
vid.<BR>Create mapsday Night of cicle. Mission full or motion engine =
several=20
kind.<BR>Ussr each of them exclusive buildings techtrees. Conquer =
special Usas=20
elite soldiers army. On defensive Britains?<BR>Resources which takes a =
place am=20
in World ii. Russians of firepower land air seagame in.<BR>Hours =
replaying in=20
acts Second historical videos before every. Air seagame oil is usa=20
Ussr!<BR>Create mapsday Night cicle affects.<BR>Different nations =
Germany Great=20
Britain United States or and Soviet.<BR>Usa Ussr each of them.<BR>Or =
knock em=20
dead Russians am firepower.<BR>Of them exclusive.<BR>Or knock em dead =
Russians=20
am firepower.<BR>Detection or knock a em of. Hours replaying acts Second =

historical videos before every. Union across missions campaigns a Axis =
in Allies=20
a! Roomssave view replays features study=20
enemy.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 12 21:25:04 2006
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:13:14 +0900
From: Romain KUNTZ <kuntz@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
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To: Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
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Hi Sri,

Sri Gundavelli wrote:
> Using a HoA from MNP introduces some interesting situation, when
> the MR returns home. The MNP is anchored at the HA and when the
> MR returns home, there is no routing state for that prefix at
> the HA. At home, is the MR a bridge ? Is the prefix split between
> HA and MR and MR and itself ? If some one case fix the text in
> 3963 and address all the issues, I'm ok supporting this. Currently,
> we dont support this.

When returning home, the MR could configure an autoconfigured address on 
its egress interface and send routing protocol messages (section 5.8). 
Are there any issues with such solution?

Regards,
-- 
Romain KUNTZ
kuntz@sfc.wide.ad.jp




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 12 22:58:36 2006
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Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:57:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>
To: Romain KUNTZ <kuntz@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
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Hi Romain,

On Mon, 13 Nov 2006, Romain KUNTZ wrote:

> Hi Sri,
>
> Sri Gundavelli wrote:

> When returning home, the MR could configure an autoconfigured address on its 
> egress interface and send routing protocol messages (section 5.8). Are there 
> any issues with such solution?
>


How does your NEMO state machine know, its at home ? Typically,
you compare the advertised prefix from the RA, with the
configured home network prefix. In this case, when the HOA is
from the MNP, how does your current implementation determine
it is at home ?


Sri




From wvfayepwoe@padoniaparkclub.com Mon Nov 13 01:06:01 2006
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From:	"About" <wvfayepwoe@padoniaparkclub.com>
To: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org
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Subject: Re: others hurricanes
Date:	Mon, 13 Nov 2006 07:05:38 +0100
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: wvfayepwoe@padoniaparkclub.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, November 05:03:32 AM
  Subject: others hurricanes


  Sponsor Relocation buying or.
  Safe in Email Blogging Effective am Research Center on how. Entry =
Level Seasonal Finance Accounting Banking a Consulting Temping in.
  Missouri in Montana Nebraska?
  Company Popular Articles. Search Online Safely or with Jumpnav return. =
Rites Passage or at is Diversity Fair of are carefully chosen.
  Advice Basics Protecting Your. Kansas Kentucky am Louisiana Maine a =
Maryland Michigan Minnesota or Missouri Montana am.
  Pros a Susan Ireland pro a jan Cannon Career of Parmelee. Academia or =
Education Computers Technology Entry.
  Return the Guide Best of web a for?
  Oregon Rhode Island South Tennessee a Texas. Academia or Education =
Computers Technology Entry.
  Employer lists or strategies Industry. Job Search Online Safely with =
Jumpnav. See our Guidelines added within a?
  Advice in Basics in Protecting Your Privacy is Creating am Cybersafe =
Resume Starting. Find Layoffs predict in prepare survive Dangerous Dirty =
in Dozen Mistakes.
  Any or category Classified ads in Newsgroup. Using Sites Safe Email =
Blogging Effective Research Center on in.
  Market Tips Seekers a Over of Veterans More.
  Safe in Email Blogging Effective am Research Center on how.
  Jumpnav in return the Guide am Best of web for Careers!
  Michigan of Minnesota Missouri Montana.
  Webtop is in according.
  Michigan of Minnesota Missouri Montana.
  Ohio or Oklahoma Oregon Rhode Island South Tennessee Texas Utah. Job =
Search in Online Safely with a. Rights reserved permission reproduce =
these contents. Employers is recruiters Reading Jobhunt Pros Susan =
Ireland pro of jan.
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dnemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org">nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org</=
A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dwvfayepwoe@padoniaparkclub.com=20
href=3D"mailto:wvfayepwoe@padoniaparkclub.com">wvfayepwoe@padoniaparkclub=
com</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November =
05:03:32 AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> others hurricanes</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sponsor Relocation buying or.<BR>Safe =
in Email=20
Blogging Effective am Research Center on how. Entry Level Seasonal =
Finance=20
Accounting Banking a Consulting Temping in.<BR>Missouri in Montana=20
Nebraska?<BR>Company Popular Articles. Search Online Safely or with =
Jumpnav=20
return. Rites Passage or at is Diversity Fair of are carefully =
chosen.<BR>Advice=20
Basics Protecting Your. Kansas Kentucky am Louisiana Maine a Maryland =
Michigan=20
Minnesota or Missouri Montana am.<BR>Pros a Susan Ireland pro a jan =
Cannon=20
Career of Parmelee. Academia or Education Computers Technology =
Entry.<BR>Return=20
the Guide Best of web a for?<BR>Oregon Rhode Island South Tennessee a =
Texas.=20
Academia or Education Computers Technology Entry.<BR>Employer lists or=20
strategies Industry. Job Search Online Safely with Jumpnav. See our =
Guidelines=20
added within a?<BR>Advice in Basics in Protecting Your Privacy is =
Creating am=20
Cybersafe Resume Starting. Find Layoffs predict in prepare survive =
Dangerous=20
Dirty in Dozen Mistakes.<BR>Any or category Classified ads in Newsgroup. =
Using=20
Sites Safe Email Blogging Effective Research Center on in.<BR>Market =
Tips=20
Seekers a Over of Veterans More.<BR>Safe in Email Blogging Effective am =
Research=20
Center on how.<BR>Jumpnav in return the Guide am Best of web for=20
Careers!<BR>Michigan of Minnesota Missouri Montana.<BR>Webtop is in=20
according.<BR>Michigan of Minnesota Missouri Montana.<BR>Ohio or =
Oklahoma Oregon=20
Rhode Island South Tennessee Texas Utah. Job Search in Online Safely =
with a.=20
Rights reserved permission reproduce these contents. Employers is =
recruiters=20
Reading Jobhunt Pros Susan Ireland pro of=20
jan.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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To: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org
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Subject: Re: doesnt minisize
Date:	Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:16:44 +0100
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: slsnpoltfjc@parzival.integretechpub.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, November 10:01:42 AM
  Subject: doesnt minisize


  System built Maxmsp easily ported Pure is Data appeals.
  Big Boobs Hentai of Hentaifree.
  Nicely organs spirit mortgage in hotel. With so original None is =
compare jamaalb making. Un neccesary week awesome musicvideo?
  Tax remains perfect matter.
  Forces updates refresh cache minor or bugs fixed Josh Puetz!
  Supporting am myself Helena underneath makeup. Extagen is gotta am =
believe nebulous Adult.
  Kk operation lbsmbox Product.
  Having problems logging bmust or Reset Passwordb. Provided trademark =
llc Elections Bitter or Aftertaste pr.
  Gaye stevie wonder. Droolds a filesrun Usbno am.
  Corner spying thief bingo Collective Intellect author in possesses a. =
Cars or Estate Index. Principle while abused is model or senseheres =
proudly unveiled.
  Teething Kitsby hacks.
  Enough whining Apple Microsoft instead Coeditor Jaymis hitting. =
Provided trademark llc Elections Bitter or Aftertaste pr.
  Big Boobs Hentai of Hentaifree.
  Diyers expand cards gb kbps mps powers Liion in! Easy way rediscover =
in songs is yet in technology.
  Wav a getting game in! Comes Down red.
  Arrival of yay woohoo.
  Wav a getting game in!
  Device customers of Amazing is betting Being consistent.
  Actions lag particular occurs of saving in.
  Emily a haines ladytron Babyface Cent Flamenco!
  Zune lets build wantyampp completely sourced.
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dnemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org">nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org</=
A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dslsnpoltfjc@parzival.integretechpub.com=20
href=3D"mailto:slsnpoltfjc@parzival.integretechpub.com">slsnpoltfjc@parzi=
val.integretechpub.com</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November =
10:01:42 AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> doesnt minisize</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>System built Maxmsp easily ported Pure =
is Data=20
appeals.<BR>Big Boobs Hentai of Hentaifree.<BR>Nicely organs spirit =
mortgage in=20
hotel. With so original None is compare jamaalb making. Un neccesary =
week=20
awesome musicvideo?<BR>Tax remains perfect matter.<BR>Forces updates =
refresh=20
cache minor or bugs fixed Josh Puetz!<BR>Supporting am myself Helena =
underneath=20
makeup. Extagen is gotta am believe nebulous Adult.<BR>Kk operation =
lbsmbox=20
Product.<BR>Having problems logging bmust or Reset Passwordb. Provided =
trademark=20
llc Elections Bitter or Aftertaste pr.<BR>Gaye stevie wonder. Droolds a =
filesrun=20
Usbno am.<BR>Corner spying thief bingo Collective Intellect author in =
possesses=20
a. Cars or Estate Index. Principle while abused is model or senseheres =
proudly=20
unveiled.<BR>Teething Kitsby hacks.<BR>Enough whining Apple Microsoft =
instead=20
Coeditor Jaymis hitting. Provided trademark llc Elections Bitter or =
Aftertaste=20
pr.<BR>Big Boobs Hentai of Hentaifree.<BR>Diyers expand cards gb kbps =
mps powers=20
Liion in! Easy way rediscover in songs is yet in technology.<BR>Wav a =
getting=20
game in! Comes Down red.<BR>Arrival of yay woohoo.<BR>Wav a getting game =

in!<BR>Device customers of Amazing is betting Being =
consistent.<BR>Actions lag=20
particular occurs of saving in.<BR>Emily a haines ladytron Babyface Cent =

Flamenco!<BR>Zune lets build wantyampp completely=20
sourced.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 13 11:39:59 2006
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Hi everyone,

Could someone let me know what the status of
draft-ietf-nemo-dhcpv6-pd-01.txt is? Was it discussed during the IETF
meeting last week?

Thanks
George




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 13 11:46:46 2006
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it is supposed to go for a WG last call soon.
it has been stable for a while.

Vijay

Tsirtsis, George wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Could someone let me know what the status of
> draft-ietf-nemo-dhcpv6-pd-01.txt is? Was it discussed during the IETF
> meeting last week?
> 
> Thanks
> George
> 





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 13 13:10:54 2006
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Thanks Vijay,

I also have the following question. The draft allows a MIPv6 home agent
to act as a DHCPv6 relay agent for the mobile node so that the node can
get IPv6 prefixes from the DHCPv6 server at home.

The draft does not seem to place any requirements on MIPv6/NEMO with
respect to the prefixes allocated via this mechanism. Is the mobile
supposed to register the prefixes using NEMO explicit registration
support or is it assumed that implicit registration is used in this
case?

George

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 11:47 AM
> To: Tsirtsis, George
> Cc: nemo@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [nemo] status of draft-ietf-nemo-dhcpv6-pd-01.txt
>=20
> it is supposed to go for a WG last call soon.
> it has been stable for a while.
>=20
> Vijay
>=20
> Tsirtsis, George wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Could someone let me know what the status of
> > draft-ietf-nemo-dhcpv6-pd-01.txt is? Was it discussed during the
IETF
> > meeting last week?
> >
> > Thanks
> > George
> >





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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: xvxvchxrwd@paris.nethotels.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, November 01:06:48 AM
  Subject: been previous


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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dnemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org">nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org</=
A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dxvxvchxrwd@paris.nethotels.com=20
href=3D"mailto:xvxvchxrwd@paris.nethotels.com">xvxvchxrwd@paris.nethotels=
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</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November =
01:06:48 AM=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> been previous</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Uses in mids is makeedit or tapes =
a!<BR>Cpu in=20
dependent factors or.<BR>Data storage upcoming will.<BR>Marketed over =
dominated=20
throughout sedit is Main business suffered. Lot afield important thing=20
person!<BR>Inbound a Calls car Prices Economy Cheap Plane Tickets =
am.<BR>Fd=20
Promos a Premiums. Become popular of advanced still catridges three or =
less=20
easier sprite. Radio mon Rteacuteie World cup Irish.<BR>Robertson role=20
previously.<BR>User manuals is several early systems or. Toolssign =
create links=20
linkcite articlein modified text.<BR>These jump started of consumer =
soon. Games=20
to navigation is searchgame redirects!<BR>Utclinux am Linus Apache php=20
Jupiterweb networks divisions Copyright. Warning Gauntlet ps owners=20
loved.<BR>Boardgame hasnt gotten minigames Athe Legend Zelda =
Oracle.<BR>Vehicle=20
of designs theres depth Bmario Party cheery boardgame hasnt =
a.<BR>Playing of=20
personal a which has of many other functions a? Toolssign create links =
linkcite=20
articlein modified text.<BR>Cpu in dependent factors or.<BR>Officially =
refer was=20
Fairchild. Gamesedit ves While there had in been previous =
either.<BR>Owners=20
loved of should run in well is Multitap! Parties producing a forced =
developers=20
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secrets!<BR>Owners loved of should run in well is Multitap!<BR>Newswire =
is=20
Linuxcom am Report.<BR>Trendy Firebird Novell Sales Perk =
Testingnov.<BR>Sprite=20
handling is power par Neogeoedit.<BR>If multiple a written cheaply =
rendered=20
disks behaved similarly.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 13 21:25:41 2006
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From: Vijay Devarapalli <vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com>
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To: "Tsirtsis, George" <tsirtsis@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] status of draft-ietf-nemo-dhcpv6-pd-01.txt
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Tsirtsis, George wrote:
> Thanks Vijay,
> 
> I also have the following question. The draft allows a MIPv6 home agent
> to act as a DHCPv6 relay agent for the mobile node so that the node can
> get IPv6 prefixes from the DHCPv6 server at home.
> 
> The draft does not seem to place any requirements on MIPv6/NEMO with
> respect to the prefixes allocated via this mechanism. Is the mobile
> supposed to register the prefixes using NEMO explicit registration
> support or is it assumed that implicit registration is used in this
> case?

the implicit/explicit mode is independent of how
the mobile router gets the prefixes. the mobile
router and the home agent need to know before the
BU is sent, whether the mobile router is using
the implicit or explicit mode.

if the MR gets more than prefix through
DHCPv6-based prefix delegation and sends a BU in
the implicit mode, the home agent sets up
forwarding for all prefixes. if explicit mode is
used, forwarding is setup for only the prefixes
that appear in the BU.

Vijay




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Subject: Re: Crackers Annie Bliss Bound
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: uxpszrt@ottawafolklore.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, November 01:27:02 AM
  Subject: Crackers Annie Bliss Bound


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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dnemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org">nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org</=
A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Duxpszrt@ottawafolklore.com=20
href=3D"mailto:uxpszrt@ottawafolklore.com">uxpszrt@ottawafolklore.com</A>=
 </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November =
01:27:02 AM=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Crackers Annie Bliss =
Bound</DIV>
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 14 04:01:29 2006
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Hi,

Romain KUNTZ wrote:
> 
> Sri Gundavelli wrote:
> > Using a HoA from MNP introduces some interesting situation, when
> > the MR returns home. The MNP is anchored at the HA and when the
> > MR returns home, there is no routing state for that prefix at
> > the HA. At home, is the MR a bridge ? Is the prefix split between
> > HA and MR and MR and itself ? If some one case fix the text in
> > 3963 and address all the issues, I'm ok supporting this. Currently,
> > we dont support this.
> 
> When returning home, the MR could configure an autoconfigured address on 
> its egress interface and send routing protocol messages (section 5.8). 
> Are there any issues with such solution?

If the routing protocol is indispensable, I want to know which routing
protocol should provide.
I think that default is necessary to secure the interoperability and the
NEMO connection test between many products. I think the default only now
to be acceptable, even if the default will be changed in the future.


Best regards
---
Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 14 21:52:29 2006
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Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:46:48 +0800
From: Andy Huang <hpanda@huawei.com>
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Subject: [nemo] Re: [Monami6] flow bindings are not for NEMO
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Hi all:

The problem is interesting, but I think it is not only for MR which has 
multiple paths to HA, but for the 'simple' MR which has just one paths to 
HA. Let's suppose there are multiple MRs in the mobile network and every MR 
uses the different wireless interface. It's also important for MR to inform 
MNNs of egress interface information. These information will help MNNs to 
decide default router selection and source address selection, consequently 
decide uplink and downlink path selection. On this point, maybe this problem 
is more NEMO-sepcific.

Best regards

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RYUJI WAKIKAWA" <ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com>
To: "Monami6 WG" <monami6@ietf.org>
Cc: "Soliman, Hesham" <hsoliman@qualcomm.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Monami6] flow bindings are not for NEMO


> Hi George and All
>
> The problem here is important one for the scope of flow distribution.  It 
> is not related only to flow binding.
>
> In MIP6, the mobile node has multiple interfaces and can distribute  flow 
> to multiple paths.
> However, in the NEMO case, intermediate node (i.e. MR) has multiple  paths 
> to HA.
> Since this is NEMO, end node is not aware of multiple paths between 
> MR-HA. (No RO and intermediate router, MR).
>
> Therefore, it is no way for LFN/MNN to know what kind of paths which  MR 
> manages.
> As a result, there is no way for LFN/MNN to tell the preference to MR 
> (since LFN cannot know the paths condition of MR).
>
> If Monami6 wants to support end-end policy exchange in general, NEMO  is 
> very special scenario.
> We need additional schemes such as:
> - MR advertises the egress interfaces info.
> - LFN updates its preference to MR.
>
> Of course, we have to consider some race condition of filter in MR,  if 
> large number of LFN update their preference.
> I mean all the LFN may request WiMAX for all traffic instead of using  3G. 
> This is not desirable scenario.
>
> To me, these feature needs a lot of work.
> Within the current charter, we should stick to the static case for NEMO.
> Then, we may think of above feature when the Monami6 finish the  current 
> charter items.
>
> regards,
> ryuji
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2006/11/15, at 2:37, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
>
>> Tsirtsis, George wrote:
>>> Alex,
>>> Based on the discussion below we should be able to agree on the 
>>> following:
>>> Flow Binding works for NEMO as long as the MR can control the
>>> process e.g., based on generic or LFN/MNN specific configuration in
>>> the MR. There is additional work that may need to be done if one
>>> wants an MNN/LFN to dynamically request certain behavior from the
>>> MR.
>>> Is this a fair statement?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>> George
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Alexandru Petrescu
>>>> [mailto:alexandru.petrescu@motorola.com] Sent: Tuesday, November
>>>> 14, 2006 11:02 AM To: Monami6 WG Cc: Soliman, Hesham Subject: Re:
>>>> [Monami6] flow bindings are not for NEMO
>>>> Tsirtsis, George wrote:
>>>>> But Alex, this happens already in the internet. Routers load  balance 
>>>>> traffic on behalf of end nodes every day and the end
>>>>> nodes are not involved.
>>>> This is fixed end nodes, not mobiles, with homogeneous links -
>>>> almost always stable.
>>>> It is also a model where ISP routers load balance traffic, and 
>>>> subscribers pay for higher quality of service.  In smallest NEMO 
>>>> contexts (PAN) there wouldn't be such relationships between MR
>>>> and LFN - both would be owned by same person.
>>>>> In a lot of NEMO applications this is still likely to be  sufficient.
>>>> Ok.
>>>>> What you are arguing for is a *new* thing, with which an end
>>>>> node can instruct a router on how to route its traffic.
>>>> Best effort routing should happen without end host involvement.
>>>> But appreciative routing (load balancing, traffic shaping,

>>>> whatever) are for end host.
>>>>> I would argue that this is separate and thus out of scope of
>>>>> the basic functionality needed for MHs/MRs for flow bindings.
>>>> You seem to say not only out of scope, but also MRs have the
>>>> right to load-balance regardless of LFNs' preferences; and you
>>>> seem to agree NEMO already does that for the prefix.
>>>> I agree out of scope.
>>>> I don't agree MRs should ever load balance on behalf of LFNs
>>>> without proper authorization.
>>>> I don't agree MR does anything insecure for MNP (HA prohibits it)
>>>> and hence it shouldn't be allowed to do anything insecure for
>>>> flows
>>> either.
>>>> We may turn in circles :-)
>>>> Let's look at the looping problem: what do MH's preferences
>>>> become when connecting to a MR?  If a WimAx-WiFi MH prefers WiFi
>>>> for http and the WiMax-WiFi MR prefers WiMax instead, and MH
>>>> connects through WiFi to MR doesn't this translate into MH using
>>>> WiMax for http, despite its preference being WiFi?
>>>> I think we should not claim flow bindings are for NEMO.
>>>> Alex
>>>> _______________________________________________ Monami6 mailing
>>>> list Monami6@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/monami6
>>> _______________________________________________ Monami6 mailing
>>> list Monami6@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/monami6
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Monami6 mailing list
>> Monami6@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/monami6
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Monami6 mailing list
> Monami6@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/monami6
> 






From eMusiccom@optimos.com Wed Nov 15 02:33:51 2006
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
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  Subject: than Watch demand


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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dnemo-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org">nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org</=
A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DeMusiccom@optimos.com=20
href=3D"mailto:eMusiccom@optimos.com">eMusiccom@optimos.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November =
02:21:07 AM=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> than Watch demand</DIV>
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 15 10:37:35 2006
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Thread-Topic: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
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From: "Vijay Devarapalli" <Vijay.Devarapalli@AzaireNet.com>
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Subject: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
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Hi Jean-Michel,

if there is more interest, I can write something
up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
people would have gone to the mike and said=20
something. the only person who went to the mike
was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)

Vijay=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
> To: Vijay Devarapalli
> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
>=20
> Hi Vijay,
>=20
> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at San
> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the Personal
> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo WG on the
> requirements for such a use case?
>=20
> Thanks for the information.
>=20
> Best regards.
>=20
> JMC.
>=20




From beaten@parksidechurch.com Wed Nov 15 13:41:23 2006
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 15 14:27:48 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:26:22 -0600
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From: "Ivancic, William D. \(GRC-RCN0\)" <william.d.ivancic@nasa.gov>
To: "Vijay Devarapalli" <Vijay.Devarapalli@AzaireNet.com>,
	"Jean-Michel Combes" <jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com>
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Errors-To: nemo-bounces@ietf.org

Vijay and Jen-Micheal:

I would think some of the major router companies would be interested in
Personal Mobile Routers with regard to first responders and military.
Or, perhaps they are thinking manet will fit there needs (nemos are
"relatively" easy  to secure if route optimization is not an issue.  =20

I've looked at the problem for highway patrol and other first responders
a while ago and there appears to be a need.   For first responders -
particularly police and other law enforcement officials, security is an
issue.  Nemo requires infrastructure which may not exist in military
applications but either exists or is relatively easy to create for first
responders.


 "Ohio State Highway Patrol Secure Mobile Networking Demonstration - A
Technical Overview of the Network and Data Flow" Columbus, Ohio November
6, 2003. (Powerpoint) file size 3,795,768 bytes
http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~ivancic/papers_presentations/2003/OSHP.ppt


I hope this helps. =20

Will


******************************
William D. Ivancic
Phone 216-433-3494
Fax 216-433-8705
Lab 216-433-2620
Mobile 440-503-4892
http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~ivancic=20
=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:Vijay.Devarapalli@AzaireNet.com]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 10:29 AM
> To: Jean-Michel Combes
> Cc: nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> Subject: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
>=20
> Hi Jean-Michel,
>=20
> if there is more interest, I can write something up in the=20
> form of requirements. I was hoping more people would have=20
> gone to the mike and said something. the only person who went=20
> to the mike was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
>=20
> Vijay=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
> > To: Vijay Devarapalli
> > Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> > Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
> >=20
> > Hi Vijay,
> >=20
> > Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at San=20
> > Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the=20
> Personal=20
> > Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo=20
> WG on the=20
> > requirements for such a use case?
> >=20
> > Thanks for the information.
> >=20
> > Best regards.
> >=20
> > JMC.
> >=20
>=20




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Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> Hi Jean-Michel,
> 
> if there is more interest, I can write something
> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
> people would have gone to the mike and said 
> something. the only person who went to the mike
> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)


I thought the requirements are mostly specific to hardware,
building a device with low power consumption, low form factor
..etc. Other requirements related to control message optimization
..etc. apply to a mobile node such as a handset as well. Talking
to Will, he thought the same. Interesting to see, if this device
adds any NEMO protocol specific requirements. BTW, we do have such
a prototype device running NEMO.

Regards
Sri





> 
> Vijay 
> 
> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com] 
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
>>To: Vijay Devarapalli
>>Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>>Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
>>
>>Hi Vijay,
>>
>>Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at San
>>Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the Personal
>>Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo WG on the
>>requirements for such a use case?
>>
>>Thanks for the information.
>>
>>Best regards.
>>
>>JMC.
>>
> 
> 





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From: "Soliman, Hesham" <hsoliman@qualcomm.com>
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	"Jean-Michel Combes" <jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com>
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 > if there is more interest, I can write something
 > up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
 > people would have gone to the mike and said=20
 > something. the only person who went to the mike
 > was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)

=3D> "not so relevant" ? I guess when you write something up I can =
explain
the relevance of the trust model to RO in the context of your document.=20

Hesham

 >=20
 > Vijay=20
 >=20
 > > -----Original Message-----
 > > From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]=20
 > > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
 > > To: Vijay Devarapalli
 > > Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
 > > Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
 > >=20
 > > Hi Vijay,
 > >=20
 > > Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at San
 > > Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding=20
 > the Personal
 > > Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo=20
 > WG on the
 > > requirements for such a use case?
 > >=20
 > > Thanks for the information.
 > >=20
 > > Best regards.
 > >=20
 > > JMC.
 > >=20
 >=20
 >=20




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 15 22:06:24 2006
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hello,

a clarification. I was trying to show another use
case for NEMO route optimization where the
requirements would be different from automobile or
the aviation industry requirements.

basic NEMO will work very well for this use case.
nothing more needs to be specified.

Vijay

Sri Gundavelli wrote:
> 
> 
> Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
>> Hi Jean-Michel,
>>
>> if there is more interest, I can write something
>> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
>> people would have gone to the mike and said something. the only person 
>> who went to the mike
>> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
> 
> 
> I thought the requirements are mostly specific to hardware,
> building a device with low power consumption, low form factor
> ..etc. Other requirements related to control message optimization
> ..etc. apply to a mobile node such as a handset as well. Talking
> to Will, he thought the same. Interesting to see, if this device
> adds any NEMO protocol specific requirements. BTW, we do have such
> a prototype device running NEMO.
> 
> Regards
> Sri
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> Vijay
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com] Sent: 
>>> Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
>>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
>>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
>>>
>>> Hi Vijay,
>>>
>>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at San
>>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the Personal
>>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo WG on the
>>> requirements for such a use case?
>>>
>>> Thanks for the information.
>>>
>>> Best regards.
>>>
>>> JMC.
>>>
>>
>>
> 





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From: Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
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On Wed, 15 Nov 2006, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:

> hello,
>
> a clarification. I was trying to show another use
> case for NEMO route optimization where the
> requirements would be different from automobile or
> the aviation industry requirements.
>

Ok. I understand now. I should have checked your preso.
I will take a look. Thanks

Sri


> basic NEMO will work very well for this use case.
> nothing more needs to be specified.
>






From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 15 22:32:48 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
From: Chan-Wah NG <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
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Hello Vijay, Sri, and all,

On Wed, 2006-11-15 at 19:05 -0800, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> hello,
> 
> a clarification. I was trying to show another use
> case for NEMO route optimization where the
> requirements would be different from automobile or
> the aviation industry requirements.
> 
> basic NEMO will work very well for this use case.
> nothing more needs to be specified.
> 
> Vijay

I would agree with Vijay here.  Thus far the NEMO WG has been focusing
on big industry needs such as aviation and automobile industries.  While
requirements from these obvious NEMO dpeloyements are definitely the
main driving force here, one should not disregard the mass consumer
electronics scenario.  Vijay's proposal of Personal Mobile Routers type
of scenario is definitely not to neglected.

Scenarios leading to need for route optimization includes multimedia
streaming between peers (such as video-telephony), content sharing, etc.
As presented, such communications is typically localized, thus mkaing
route optimization highly desirable.  

To take this one step further, such "personal" NEMO to a non-personal
flavour, such as NEMO for business/entreprise, local law enforcement,
etc.

/rgds
/cwng


> 
> Sri Gundavelli wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> >> Hi Jean-Michel,
> >>
> >> if there is more interest, I can write something
> >> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
> >> people would have gone to the mike and said something. the only person 
> >> who went to the mike
> >> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
> > 
> > 
> > I thought the requirements are mostly specific to hardware,
> > building a device with low power consumption, low form factor
> > ..etc. Other requirements related to control message optimization
> > ..etc. apply to a mobile node such as a handset as well. Talking
> > to Will, he thought the same. Interesting to see, if this device
> > adds any NEMO protocol specific requirements. BTW, we do have such
> > a prototype device running NEMO.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Sri
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >>
> >> Vijay
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com] Sent: 
> >>> Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
> >>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
> >>>
> >>> Hi Vijay,
> >>>
> >>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at San
> >>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the Personal
> >>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo WG on the
> >>> requirements for such a use case?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the information.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards.
> >>>
> >>> JMC.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> > 
> 
> 
-- 
Chan-Wah NG <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
Panasonic Singapore Labs





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Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
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Hi Vijay

Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit more.

When you said route optimization, what level of optimization is  
required?

Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
So, your problem must be not here.

In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be skipped  
(i.e. same HA for two MRs).
In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be located in  
the cellular network.
The latency must be not so big (my guess).

I want to know where you want to optimize the path between two  
personal MRs?!

regards,
ryuji






On 2006/11/16, at 0:29, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:

> Hi Jean-Michel,
>
> if there is more interest, I can write something
> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
> people would have gone to the mike and said
> something. the only person who went to the mike
> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
>
> Vijay
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
>>
>> Hi Vijay,
>>
>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at San
>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the Personal
>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo WG on the
>> requirements for such a use case?
>>
>> Thanks for the information.
>>
>> Best regards.
>>
>> JMC.
>>
>





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 16 10:10:18 2006
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Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> Hi Jean-Michel,
> 
> if there is more interest, I can write something up in the form of 
> requirements. I was hoping more people would have gone to the mike 
> and said something.[...]

The Presonal Mobile Router scenario is relevant.  PAN models use it.
A 2003 announcement [companyname] showed Personal Mobile Gateway with
the form factor of a handset and delivering IP to a Bluetooth PAN
behind it.

Some operators of cell phones prohibit two phones talk to each other
via Bluetooth or WiFi and make them prefer the cell network.  Others
encourage it.  This can be called 'RO' and how some operators want it
and others not.

I think 3G-something has NEMOv6 spec for Mobile Routers - would
someone confirm.

The great thing of making two handset MR talk to each directly
(instead of via cell network) is the gain in bandwidth: both bluetooth
and wifi have higher bandwidth than 3G cells.  So an RO solution would
help here a lot, independently of how far the HAs are.

We too have a prototype of this PAN controlled by a Mobile Router,
with PDAs in the PAN.

Alex




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 16 10:45:32 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
From: Chan-Wah NG <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
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Hello all,

On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 13:51 +0900, RYUJI WAKIKAWA wrote:
> Hi Vijay
> 
> Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit more.
> 
> When you said route optimization, what level of optimization is  
> required?
> 
> Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
> I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
> So, your problem must be not here.
> 
Multi-modal cellphones are already in the market for years now.  So I
suspect, like what Alex mentioned, when MR-MR RO is used, I would
imagine them to use other interfaces.

> In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
> However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be skipped  
> (i.e. same HA for two MRs).
> In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be located in  
> the cellular network.
> The latency must be not so big (my guess).
> 
> I want to know where you want to optimize the path between two  
> personal MRs?!
> 
> regards,
> ryuji

It is actually to the operator's benefit for two MR to talk directly to
each other without using HAs.  It frees up the HA resources for other
use.  As Alex mentioned in his response, some operators encourage it,
some don't.  I suspect the main reason for operators that don't  is due
to billing complications -- how are you going to charge the 2 MR for air
time if they have not actually use the cellular air time?

/rgds
/cwng





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 16 11:47:16 2006
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From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA <ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 01:40:38 +0900
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Hi Alex,

why some operators hesitate to open the way to talk?

If this is accounting issue, control signals can be always sent over  
cell network
and data traffic is sent directly between phones.
Then, operators may agree on supporting this RO?! (if so, great)

regards,
ryuji

On 2006/11/17, at 0:09, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:

> Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
>> Hi Jean-Michel,
>> if there is more interest, I can write something up in the form of  
>> requirements. I was hoping more people would have gone to the mike  
>> and said something.[...]
>
> The Presonal Mobile Router scenario is relevant.  PAN models use it.
> A 2003 announcement [companyname] showed Personal Mobile Gateway with
> the form factor of a handset and delivering IP to a Bluetooth PAN
> behind it.
>
> Some operators of cell phones prohibit two phones talk to each other
> via Bluetooth or WiFi and make them prefer the cell network.  Others
> encourage it.  This can be called 'RO' and how some operators want it
> and others not.
>
> I think 3G-something has NEMOv6 spec for Mobile Routers - would
> someone confirm.
>
> The great thing of making two handset MR talk to each directly
> (instead of via cell network) is the gain in bandwidth: both bluetooth
> and wifi have higher bandwidth than 3G cells.  So an RO solution would
> help here a lot, independently of how far the HAs are.
>
> We too have a prototype of this PAN controlled by a Mobile Router,
> with PDAs in the PAN.
>
> Alex
>





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 16 11:47:21 2006
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From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA <ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 01:43:11 +0900
To: Chan-Wah NG <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
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Hi

On 2006/11/17, at 0:46, Chan-Wah NG wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 13:51 +0900, RYUJI WAKIKAWA wrote:
>> Hi Vijay
>>
>> Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit more.
>>
>> When you said route optimization, what level of optimization is
>> required?
>>
>> Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
>> I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
>> So, your problem must be not here.
>>
> Multi-modal cellphones are already in the market for years now.  So I
> suspect, like what Alex mentioned, when MR-MR RO is used, I would
> imagine them to use other interfaces.

OK. The problem is a bit similar to the nested case, though the  
scenario is different.

>> In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
>> However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be skipped
>> (i.e. same HA for two MRs).
>> In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be located in
>> the cellular network.
>> The latency must be not so big (my guess).
>>
>> I want to know where you want to optimize the path between two
>> personal MRs?!
>>
>> regards,
>> ryuji
>
> It is actually to the operator's benefit for two MR to talk  
> directly to
> each other without using HAs.  It frees up the HA resources for other
> use.  As Alex mentioned in his response, some operators encourage it,
> some don't.  I suspect the main reason for operators that don't  is  
> due
> to billing complications -- how are you going to charge the 2 MR  
> for air
> time if they have not actually use the cellular air time?

As I said in the previous mail, if HA knows who talk directly by  
receiving signaling,
they may have chance to charge...

ryuji

> /rgds
> /cwng
>





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 16 12:59:36 2006
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Hello Alex, Ryuji,

On Fri, 2006-11-17 at 01:40 +0900, RYUJI WAKIKAWA wrote:
> Hi Alex,
> 
> why some operators hesitate to open the way to talk?
> 
> If this is accounting issue, control signals can be always sent over  
> cell network
> and data traffic is sent directly between phones.
> Then, operators may agree on supporting this RO?! (if so, great)
> 

Possible, but they cannot know the actual duration or number of bytes
transferred, so either they charge a one time flat fee or they install
software on subscriber's phone to report such accounting info.

One-time flat fee is fair enough, since their network resources is not
actually used.  However, operators may do their finiancial research and
deem that it is not optimal profit wise to allow services.

The second option is unlikely, unless the operator is so powerful (like
in a particular Asian country ;)) that it can dictate the specifications
on phone vendors.  Plus it isn't very fair, since operator's network
resources are not actually used (signalling exlcuded, which can be
accounted and charged anyway).

/rgds
/cwng







From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 16 14:27:43 2006
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:26:51 +0200
From: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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Hi all,

These two documents were in IESG review today
and they will be approved. However, before sending
them to the RFC Editor, I would like to make one change,
based on Sam Hartman's comments (copied at the end).

In the ro-space-analysis document, change

Cryptographically Generated Addresses (CGA) [40] could be used to
establish the ownership of care-of addresses and network prefixes

to

Cryptographically Generated Addresses (CGA) [40] could be used to
establish the ownership of care-of addresses

Let me know if there are any objections by Monday next
week. Otherwise I'll add an RFC Editor note and move
the document forward.

Thanks,

--Jari

> There is a lot of good work here.  The solutions document provides an
> excellent survey of the existing work.  But the analysis seems lacking
> especially in areas where the existing work is kind of lacking, such
> as security.  I don't believe that this ballot is sufficient as a
> basis for a standards-track nemo ro approach.  There are a lot of
> discussions of security, architecture and how well considered the
> input proposals are that still need to happen.  I think there needs to
> be significannt input from the IPV6 and MIP6 communities before we get
> to an approach that is likely to withstand IETF review.
>
>
> I'm balloting an abstain rather than a no-ob because it seems like
> there is a lot of half-baked analysis mixed in with some really good
> stuff and I'm concerned that separating it out will be hard.  Specific
> examples that really triggered this abstain include:
>
> The claim in 2.5 of the problem statement that there is a security
> problem associated with accepting traffic from visiting nodes.
>
>
> The idea of using  an anycast address to find correspondant routers. 
>
> The idea of creating a multilink subnet for all the nodes in the
> mobile network.
>
> Use of CGA to prove ownership of a prefix.
>
> Yes, these ideas have been brought forward.  They should be discussed.
> But the analysis seems rather incomplete.





From quotIn@overtheroad.com Thu Nov 16 18:56:30 2006
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From:	"government" <quotIn@overtheroad.com>
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Subject: no recent reports illegals
Date:	Fri, 17 Nov 2006 07:56:17 +0800
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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:34:27 +0100
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Thread-Topic: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
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From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "RYUJI WAKIKAWA" <ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com>,
	"Vijay Devarapalli" <Vijay.Devarapalli@AzaireNet.com>
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Hi Ryuji and Vijay.

I strongly agree that the personal router should be an item together
within the charter.

Talking in various forum, we found interest in a Personal Area NEMO
that:

- Connects voice devices for VoIP (the main application)
- Connects body sensors (medical devices, sportsmen, firemen, location
monitoring)
- Connects Personal productivity devices (handheld)

The type of requirements we found in this space:

- for voice:
a) Privacy: the device should not see the remote CoA
b) Jitter/Latency: as usual... for instance the one way latency should
stay below 150ms
c) Access: Compatibility/awareness with emerging access such as mesh
networks.=20
d) Service: A stable anchor point for AAA, policy and SLA enforcement.

- for sensors:
e) Layer 7 triggers: access network awareness (emergency dial, bandwidth
availability indication...)
=20
- for personal productivity devices
f) VPN access
g) Community of interest (user centric overlays, route projection)

In particular, to answer Ryuji's question about RO, we can note that
PANEMO:

- demands a route optimization for NEMO for point b)
- requires that the RO happens in the Infrastructure for point a)
whereas g) is more P2P
- pleads for regional proxy Home Agents for point d) (note, THIS NOT
PMIP!!)

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA [mailto:ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com]
>Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:51 AM
>To: Vijay Devarapalli
>Cc: nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next
Step?
>
>Hi Vijay
>
>Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit more.
>
>When you said route optimization, what level of optimization is
>required?
>
>Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
>I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
>So, your problem must be not here.
>
>In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
>However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be skipped
>(i.e. same HA for two MRs).
>In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be located in
>the cellular network.
>The latency must be not so big (my guess).
>
>I want to know where you want to optimize the path between two
>personal MRs?!
>
>regards,
>ryuji
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On 2006/11/16, at 0:29, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
>
>> Hi Jean-Michel,
>>
>> if there is more interest, I can write something
>> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
>> people would have gone to the mike and said
>> something. the only person who went to the mike
>> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
>>
>> Vijay
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
>>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
>>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
>>>
>>> Hi Vijay,
>>>
>>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at San
>>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the Personal
>>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo WG on the
>>> requirements for such a use case?
>>>
>>> Thanks for the information.
>>>
>>> Best regards.
>>>
>>> JMC.
>>>
>>




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 17 05:18:05 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
From: Carlos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs?= Bernardos Cano <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
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Dear Pascal and all,

	I also agree that personal router scenario is of interest. However I
think that for many of these scenarios, as other people has already
mentioned, in order to benefit from low delay and high bandwidth, it use
of celular network interfaces should be avoided. Therefore, I think that
for these scenarios, MR-to-MR RO optimisation schemes are the most
suitable ones. Doing RO in the infrastructure does not help so much in
reducing the delay if you already have ~150ms of one-way delay using
UMTS (if two NEMOs are talking each other and both are connected using,
for example, UMTS, then you'll end up having 150x2=3D~300 ms of one way
delay!).

	Regards,

	Carlos J.

El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 10:34 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
escribi=F3:
> Hi Ryuji and Vijay.
>=20
> I strongly agree that the personal router should be an item together
> within the charter.
>=20
> Talking in various forum, we found interest in a Personal Area NEMO
> that:
>=20
> - Connects voice devices for VoIP (the main application)
> - Connects body sensors (medical devices, sportsmen, firemen, location
> monitoring)
> - Connects Personal productivity devices (handheld)
>=20
> The type of requirements we found in this space:
>=20
> - for voice:
> a) Privacy: the device should not see the remote CoA
> b) Jitter/Latency: as usual... for instance the one way latency should
> stay below 150ms
> c) Access: Compatibility/awareness with emerging access such as mesh
> networks.=20
> d) Service: A stable anchor point for AAA, policy and SLA enforcement.
>=20
> - for sensors:
> e) Layer 7 triggers: access network awareness (emergency dial, bandwidth
> availability indication...)
> =20
> - for personal productivity devices
> f) VPN access
> g) Community of interest (user centric overlays, route projection)
>=20
> In particular, to answer Ryuji's question about RO, we can note that
> PANEMO:
>=20
> - demands a route optimization for NEMO for point b)
> - requires that the RO happens in the Infrastructure for point a)
> whereas g) is more P2P
> - pleads for regional proxy Home Agents for point d) (note, THIS NOT
> PMIP!!)
>=20
> Pascal
>=20
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA [mailto:ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com]
> >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:51 AM
> >To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >Cc: nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next
> Step?
> >
> >Hi Vijay
> >
> >Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit more.
> >
> >When you said route optimization, what level of optimization is
> >required?
> >
> >Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
> >I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
> >So, your problem must be not here.
> >
> >In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
> >However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be skipped
> >(i.e. same HA for two MRs).
> >In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be located in
> >the cellular network.
> >The latency must be not so big (my guess).
> >
> >I want to know where you want to optimize the path between two
> >personal MRs?!
> >
> >regards,
> >ryuji
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On 2006/11/16, at 0:29, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Jean-Michel,
> >>
> >> if there is more interest, I can write something
> >> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
> >> people would have gone to the mike and said
> >> something. the only person who went to the mike
> >> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
> >>
> >> Vijay
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
> >>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
> >>>
> >>> Hi Vijay,
> >>>
> >>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at San
> >>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the Personal
> >>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo WG on the
> >>> requirements for such a use case?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the information.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards.
> >>>
> >>> JMC.
> >>>
> >>
>=20
--=20
=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
 Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
 GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974


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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
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Hi Carlos :)

I do not believe that the performance is the issue:=20

If proxy Home Agents are deployed the way SGSNs are today, they will be =
on the way and will not cause a visible latency increase. But a proxy HA =
enables AAA, HA selection, billing, policy enforcement, trust, and =
end-point privacy, which are strong ISP requirements.

OTOH, P2P might not require any of these features and thus, and a direct =
MR-to-MR RO would seem to be the right approach for such applications.

Since both scenarii are relevant, I believe there is room for both =
direct and infrastructure-based RO mechanisms, depending on whether you =
are considering an ISP service or a P2P.=20

Seems fair?

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
>Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:17 AM
>To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org; =
jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next =
Step?
>
>Dear Pascal and all,
>
>	I also agree that personal router scenario is of interest. However I
>think that for many of these scenarios, as other people has already
>mentioned, in order to benefit from low delay and high bandwidth, it =
use
>of celular network interfaces should be avoided. Therefore, I think =
that
>for these scenarios, MR-to-MR RO optimisation schemes are the most
>suitable ones. Doing RO in the infrastructure does not help so much in
>reducing the delay if you already have ~150ms of one-way delay using
>UMTS (if two NEMOs are talking each other and both are connected using,
>for example, UMTS, then you'll end up having 150x2=3D~300 ms of one way
>delay!).
>
>	Regards,
>
>	Carlos J.
>
>El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 10:34 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>escribi=F3:
>> Hi Ryuji and Vijay.
>>
>> I strongly agree that the personal router should be an item together
>> within the charter.
>>
>> Talking in various forum, we found interest in a Personal Area NEMO
>> that:
>>
>> - Connects voice devices for VoIP (the main application)
>> - Connects body sensors (medical devices, sportsmen, firemen, =
location
>> monitoring)
>> - Connects Personal productivity devices (handheld)
>>
>> The type of requirements we found in this space:
>>
>> - for voice:
>> a) Privacy: the device should not see the remote CoA
>> b) Jitter/Latency: as usual... for instance the one way latency =
should
>> stay below 150ms
>> c) Access: Compatibility/awareness with emerging access such as mesh
>> networks.
>> d) Service: A stable anchor point for AAA, policy and SLA =
enforcement.
>>
>> - for sensors:
>> e) Layer 7 triggers: access network awareness (emergency dial, =
bandwidth
>> availability indication...)
>>
>> - for personal productivity devices
>> f) VPN access
>> g) Community of interest (user centric overlays, route projection)
>>
>> In particular, to answer Ryuji's question about RO, we can note that
>> PANEMO:
>>
>> - demands a route optimization for NEMO for point b)
>> - requires that the RO happens in the Infrastructure for point a)
>> whereas g) is more P2P
>> - pleads for regional proxy Home Agents for point d) (note, THIS NOT
>> PMIP!!)
>>
>> Pascal
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA [mailto:ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com]
>> >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:51 AM
>> >To: Vijay Devarapalli
>> >Cc: nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>> >Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next
>> Step?
>> >
>> >Hi Vijay
>> >
>> >Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit more.
>> >
>> >When you said route optimization, what level of optimization is
>> >required?
>> >
>> >Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
>> >I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
>> >So, your problem must be not here.
>> >
>> >In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
>> >However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be skipped
>> >(i.e. same HA for two MRs).
>> >In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be located in
>> >the cellular network.
>> >The latency must be not so big (my guess).
>> >
>> >I want to know where you want to optimize the path between two
>> >personal MRs?!
>> >
>> >regards,
>> >ryuji
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On 2006/11/16, at 0:29, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Jean-Michel,
>> >>
>> >> if there is more interest, I can write something
>> >> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
>> >> people would have gone to the mike and said
>> >> something. the only person who went to the mike
>> >> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
>> >>
>> >> Vijay
>> >>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]
>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
>> >>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
>> >>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>> >>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Vijay,
>> >>>
>> >>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at =
San
>> >>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the =
Personal
>> >>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo WG on =
the
>> >>> requirements for such a use case?
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks for the information.
>> >>>
>> >>> Best regards.
>> >>>
>> >>> JMC.
>> >>>
>> >>
>>
>--
>=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974




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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
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Hi Pascal,

El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 11:55 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
escribi=F3:
> Hi Carlos :)
>=20
> I do not believe that the performance is the issue:=20
>=20
> If proxy Home Agents are deployed the way SGSNs are today, they will be o=
n the way and will not cause a visible latency increase. But a proxy HA ena=
bles AAA, HA selection, billing, policy enforcement, trust, and end-point p=
rivacy, which are strong ISP requirements.

	Even if Home Agents are deployed in that way, there will be a high
latency component introduced by the celular network itself (we have
performed many real experiments and that delay is always no less than
100-150ms one-way). As far as I know, operators are working to improve
the performance (several years ago, the latency introduced by 2.5/3G
networks was even worse, about almost half a second).

>=20
> OTOH, P2P might not require any of these features and thus, and a direct =
MR-to-MR RO would seem to be the right approach for such applications.
>=20
> Since both scenarii are relevant, I believe there is room for both direct=
 and infrastructure-based RO mechanisms, depending on whether you are consi=
dering an ISP service or a P2P.=20

	I agree that both scenarios are relevant. But I also think that it is
also interesting to look at the issues you mentioned regarding ISPs and
operators when a RO scheme that do not make use of the infrastructure is
used, and seek for alternative solutions when a MR-to-MR approach is
used instead. Don't you agree that it would be better to always avoid
traversing the infrastructure if an alternative path which is shorter,
cheaper and provides a better performance is available?

>=20
> Seems fair?
>=20
> Pascal
>=20
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:17 AM
> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@=
orange-ftgroup.com
> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
> >
> >Dear Pascal and all,
> >
> >	I also agree that personal router scenario is of interest. However I
> >think that for many of these scenarios, as other people has already
> >mentioned, in order to benefit from low delay and high bandwidth, it use
> >of celular network interfaces should be avoided. Therefore, I think that
> >for these scenarios, MR-to-MR RO optimisation schemes are the most
> >suitable ones. Doing RO in the infrastructure does not help so much in
> >reducing the delay if you already have ~150ms of one-way delay using
> >UMTS (if two NEMOs are talking each other and both are connected using,
> >for example, UMTS, then you'll end up having 150x2=3D~300 ms of one way
> >delay!).
> >
> >	Regards,
> >
> >	Carlos J.
> >
> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 10:34 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >escribi=F3:
> >> Hi Ryuji and Vijay.
> >>
> >> I strongly agree that the personal router should be an item together
> >> within the charter.
> >>
> >> Talking in various forum, we found interest in a Personal Area NEMO
> >> that:
> >>
> >> - Connects voice devices for VoIP (the main application)
> >> - Connects body sensors (medical devices, sportsmen, firemen, location
> >> monitoring)
> >> - Connects Personal productivity devices (handheld)
> >>
> >> The type of requirements we found in this space:
> >>
> >> - for voice:
> >> a) Privacy: the device should not see the remote CoA
> >> b) Jitter/Latency: as usual... for instance the one way latency should
> >> stay below 150ms
> >> c) Access: Compatibility/awareness with emerging access such as mesh
> >> networks.
> >> d) Service: A stable anchor point for AAA, policy and SLA enforcement.
> >>
> >> - for sensors:
> >> e) Layer 7 triggers: access network awareness (emergency dial, bandwid=
th
> >> availability indication...)
> >>
> >> - for personal productivity devices
> >> f) VPN access
> >> g) Community of interest (user centric overlays, route projection)
> >>
> >> In particular, to answer Ryuji's question about RO, we can note that
> >> PANEMO:
> >>
> >> - demands a route optimization for NEMO for point b)
> >> - requires that the RO happens in the Infrastructure for point a)
> >> whereas g) is more P2P
> >> - pleads for regional proxy Home Agents for point d) (note, THIS NOT
> >> PMIP!!)
> >>
> >> Pascal
> >>
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA [mailto:ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com]
> >> >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:51 AM
> >> >To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >> >Cc: nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next
> >> Step?
> >> >
> >> >Hi Vijay
> >> >
> >> >Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit more.
> >> >
> >> >When you said route optimization, what level of optimization is
> >> >required?
> >> >
> >> >Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
> >> >I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
> >> >So, your problem must be not here.
> >> >
> >> >In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
> >> >However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be skipped
> >> >(i.e. same HA for two MRs).
> >> >In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be located in
> >> >the cellular network.
> >> >The latency must be not so big (my guess).
> >> >
> >> >I want to know where you want to optimize the path between two
> >> >personal MRs?!
> >> >
> >> >regards,
> >> >ryuji
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On 2006/11/16, at 0:29, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi Jean-Michel,
> >> >>
> >> >> if there is more interest, I can write something
> >> >> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
> >> >> people would have gone to the mike and said
> >> >> something. the only person who went to the mike
> >> >> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
> >> >>
> >> >> Vijay
> >> >>
> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]
> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
> >> >>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >> >>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hi Vijay,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at Sa=
n
> >> >>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the Person=
al
> >> >>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo WG on t=
he
> >> >>> requirements for such a use case?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Thanks for the information.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Best regards.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> JMC.
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >>
> >--
> >=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> > Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
--=20
=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
 Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
 GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974


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Pascal,

What on earth is a proxy HA??? :-)=20
Do you mean a hierarchical style deployment e.g., HMIP?? Or something =
else?

Thanks
George

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 5:56 AM
> To: cjbc@it.uc3m.es
> Cc: nemo@ietf.org; Vijay Devarapalli; =
jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next =
Step?
>=20
> Hi Carlos :)
>=20
> I do not believe that the performance is the issue:
>=20
> If proxy Home Agents are deployed the way SGSNs are today, they will =
be on
> the way and will not cause a visible latency increase. But a proxy HA
> enables AAA, HA selection, billing, policy enforcement, trust, and =
end-
> point privacy, which are strong ISP requirements.
>=20
> OTOH, P2P might not require any of these features and thus, and a =
direct
> MR-to-MR RO would seem to be the right approach for such applications.
>=20
> Since both scenarii are relevant, I believe there is room for both =
direct
> and infrastructure-based RO mechanisms, depending on whether you are
> considering an ISP service or a P2P.
>=20
> Seems fair?
>=20
> Pascal
>=20
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:17 AM
> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org;
> jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next =
Step?
> >
> >Dear Pascal and all,
> >
> >	I also agree that personal router scenario is of interest. However I
> >think that for many of these scenarios, as other people has already
> >mentioned, in order to benefit from low delay and high bandwidth, it =
use
> >of celular network interfaces should be avoided. Therefore, I think =
that
> >for these scenarios, MR-to-MR RO optimisation schemes are the most
> >suitable ones. Doing RO in the infrastructure does not help so much =
in
> >reducing the delay if you already have ~150ms of one-way delay using
> >UMTS (if two NEMOs are talking each other and both are connected =
using,
> >for example, UMTS, then you'll end up having 150x2=3D~300 ms of one =
way
> >delay!).
> >
> >	Regards,
> >
> >	Carlos J.
> >
> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 10:34 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >escribi=F3:
> >> Hi Ryuji and Vijay.
> >>
> >> I strongly agree that the personal router should be an item =
together
> >> within the charter.
> >>
> >> Talking in various forum, we found interest in a Personal Area NEMO
> >> that:
> >>
> >> - Connects voice devices for VoIP (the main application)
> >> - Connects body sensors (medical devices, sportsmen, firemen, =
location
> >> monitoring)
> >> - Connects Personal productivity devices (handheld)
> >>
> >> The type of requirements we found in this space:
> >>
> >> - for voice:
> >> a) Privacy: the device should not see the remote CoA
> >> b) Jitter/Latency: as usual... for instance the one way latency =
should
> >> stay below 150ms
> >> c) Access: Compatibility/awareness with emerging access such as =
mesh
> >> networks.
> >> d) Service: A stable anchor point for AAA, policy and SLA =
enforcement.
> >>
> >> - for sensors:
> >> e) Layer 7 triggers: access network awareness (emergency dial,
> bandwidth
> >> availability indication...)
> >>
> >> - for personal productivity devices
> >> f) VPN access
> >> g) Community of interest (user centric overlays, route projection)
> >>
> >> In particular, to answer Ryuji's question about RO, we can note =
that
> >> PANEMO:
> >>
> >> - demands a route optimization for NEMO for point b)
> >> - requires that the RO happens in the Infrastructure for point a)
> >> whereas g) is more P2P
> >> - pleads for regional proxy Home Agents for point d) (note, THIS =
NOT
> >> PMIP!!)
> >>
> >> Pascal
> >>
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA [mailto:ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com]
> >> >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:51 AM
> >> >To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >> >Cc: nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next
> >> Step?
> >> >
> >> >Hi Vijay
> >> >
> >> >Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit more.
> >> >
> >> >When you said route optimization, what level of optimization is
> >> >required?
> >> >
> >> >Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
> >> >I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
> >> >So, your problem must be not here.
> >> >
> >> >In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
> >> >However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be =
skipped
> >> >(i.e. same HA for two MRs).
> >> >In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be located =
in
> >> >the cellular network.
> >> >The latency must be not so big (my guess).
> >> >
> >> >I want to know where you want to optimize the path between two
> >> >personal MRs?!
> >> >
> >> >regards,
> >> >ryuji
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On 2006/11/16, at 0:29, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi Jean-Michel,
> >> >>
> >> >> if there is more interest, I can write something
> >> >> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
> >> >> people would have gone to the mike and said
> >> >> something. the only person who went to the mike
> >> >> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
> >> >>
> >> >> Vijay
> >> >>
> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]
> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
> >> >>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >> >>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hi Vijay,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at =
San
> >> >>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the
> Personal
> >> >>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo WG =
on
> the
> >> >>> requirements for such a use case?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Thanks for the information.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Best regards.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> JMC.
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >>
> >--
> >=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> > Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974





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Hi Carlos:

Now I'm confused. I do agree that 2.5G/3G introduces latency. But the =
infrastructure we talk about is the Internet as opposed to an ISP xG =
network, so this was not my discussion.=20

Infrastructure-based RO means that the RO end points (e.g. the proxies) =
are operated by ISPs, so some trust can be elaborated between proxies =
and between proxies and HA. P2P expects nothing from the ISPs but fat =
pipes.

I certainly agree that P2P RO has benefits, and we must study it for =
sure, for the exact reasons you give. I would not want to pay when I use =
my phone as intercom at home. In an emergency situation P2P RO is all =
you might get, and you will certainly care less about billing, privacy =
and trust.=20

OTOH, a solid world wide 4G solution requires the services I =
mentioned...

Hopefully it is not one XOR the other, right?=20

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
>Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:20 PM
>To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org; =
jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next =
Step?
>
>Hi Pascal,
>
>El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 11:55 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>escribi=F3:
>> Hi Carlos :)
>>
>> I do not believe that the performance is the issue:
>>
>> If proxy Home Agents are deployed the way SGSNs are today, they will =
be on the way and will not
>cause a visible latency increase. But a proxy HA enables AAA, HA =
selection, billing, policy
>enforcement, trust, and end-point privacy, which are strong ISP =
requirements.
>
>	Even if Home Agents are deployed in that way, there will be a high
>latency component introduced by the celular network itself (we have
>performed many real experiments and that delay is always no less than
>100-150ms one-way). As far as I know, operators are working to improve
>the performance (several years ago, the latency introduced by 2.5/3G
>networks was even worse, about almost half a second).
>
>>
>> OTOH, P2P might not require any of these features and thus, and a =
direct MR-to-MR RO would seem to
>be the right approach for such applications.
>>
>> Since both scenarii are relevant, I believe there is room for both =
direct and infrastructure-based
>RO mechanisms, depending on whether you are considering an ISP service =
or a P2P.
>
>	I agree that both scenarios are relevant. But I also think that it is
>also interesting to look at the issues you mentioned regarding ISPs and
>operators when a RO scheme that do not make use of the infrastructure =
is
>used, and seek for alternative solutions when a MR-to-MR approach is
>used instead. Don't you agree that it would be better to always avoid
>traversing the infrastructure if an alternative path which is shorter,
>cheaper and provides a better performance is available?
>
>>
>> Seems fair?
>>
>> Pascal
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
>> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:17 AM
>> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org; =
jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next =
Step?
>> >
>> >Dear Pascal and all,
>> >
>> >	I also agree that personal router scenario is of interest. However =
I
>> >think that for many of these scenarios, as other people has already
>> >mentioned, in order to benefit from low delay and high bandwidth, it =
use
>> >of celular network interfaces should be avoided. Therefore, I think =
that
>> >for these scenarios, MR-to-MR RO optimisation schemes are the most
>> >suitable ones. Doing RO in the infrastructure does not help so much =
in
>> >reducing the delay if you already have ~150ms of one-way delay using
>> >UMTS (if two NEMOs are talking each other and both are connected =
using,
>> >for example, UMTS, then you'll end up having 150x2=3D~300 ms of one =
way
>> >delay!).
>> >
>> >	Regards,
>> >
>> >	Carlos J.
>> >
>> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 10:34 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>> >escribi=F3:
>> >> Hi Ryuji and Vijay.
>> >>
>> >> I strongly agree that the personal router should be an item =
together
>> >> within the charter.
>> >>
>> >> Talking in various forum, we found interest in a Personal Area =
NEMO
>> >> that:
>> >>
>> >> - Connects voice devices for VoIP (the main application)
>> >> - Connects body sensors (medical devices, sportsmen, firemen, =
location
>> >> monitoring)
>> >> - Connects Personal productivity devices (handheld)
>> >>
>> >> The type of requirements we found in this space:
>> >>
>> >> - for voice:
>> >> a) Privacy: the device should not see the remote CoA
>> >> b) Jitter/Latency: as usual... for instance the one way latency =
should
>> >> stay below 150ms
>> >> c) Access: Compatibility/awareness with emerging access such as =
mesh
>> >> networks.
>> >> d) Service: A stable anchor point for AAA, policy and SLA =
enforcement.
>> >>
>> >> - for sensors:
>> >> e) Layer 7 triggers: access network awareness (emergency dial, =
bandwidth
>> >> availability indication...)
>> >>
>> >> - for personal productivity devices
>> >> f) VPN access
>> >> g) Community of interest (user centric overlays, route projection)
>> >>
>> >> In particular, to answer Ryuji's question about RO, we can note =
that
>> >> PANEMO:
>> >>
>> >> - demands a route optimization for NEMO for point b)
>> >> - requires that the RO happens in the Infrastructure for point a)
>> >> whereas g) is more P2P
>> >> - pleads for regional proxy Home Agents for point d) (note, THIS =
NOT
>> >> PMIP!!)
>> >>
>> >> Pascal
>> >>
>> >> >-----Original Message-----
>> >> >From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA [mailto:ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com]
>> >> >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:51 AM
>> >> >To: Vijay Devarapalli
>> >> >Cc: nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>> >> >Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: =
Next
>> >> Step?
>> >> >
>> >> >Hi Vijay
>> >> >
>> >> >Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit more.
>> >> >
>> >> >When you said route optimization, what level of optimization is
>> >> >required?
>> >> >
>> >> >Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
>> >> >I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
>> >> >So, your problem must be not here.
>> >> >
>> >> >In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
>> >> >However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be =
skipped
>> >> >(i.e. same HA for two MRs).
>> >> >In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be located =
in
>> >> >the cellular network.
>> >> >The latency must be not so big (my guess).
>> >> >
>> >> >I want to know where you want to optimize the path between two
>> >> >personal MRs?!
>> >> >
>> >> >regards,
>> >> >ryuji
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >On 2006/11/16, at 0:29, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hi Jean-Michel,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> if there is more interest, I can write something
>> >> >> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
>> >> >> people would have gone to the mike and said
>> >> >> something. the only person who went to the mike
>> >> >> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Vijay
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >>> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]
>> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
>> >> >>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
>> >> >>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>> >> >>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Hi Vijay,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session =
at San
>> >> >>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the =
Personal
>> >> >>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo WG =
on the
>> >> >>> requirements for such a use case?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Thanks for the information.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Best regards.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> JMC.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >--
>> >=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
>> > Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
>> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
>--
>=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974




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Hi Pascal:

	I also agree that both options (proxy-RO and MR-to-MR) should be
carefully studied. However, my point was that I think that also in
operator-driven scenarios it should be studied how to apply MR-to-MR RO
schemes, in addition of the approach of using RO proxies deployed in the
Internet. The reasoning behind this is that the best path between two
NEMOs would always be the direct one between MRs. By using proxy RO
entities on the infrastructure, there will always be a trade-off between
number of proxy RO entities and the level of optimisation that is
required.

	In summary, I'm not against of studying proxy-RO schemes, but I think
that we should not limit the applicability of MR-to-MR approaches to
emergency scenarios.

	Kind Regards,

	Carlos J.

El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 16:20 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
escribi=F3:
> Hi Carlos:
>=20
> Now I'm confused. I do agree that 2.5G/3G introduces latency. But the inf=
rastructure we talk about is the Internet as opposed to an ISP xG network, =
so this was not my discussion.=20
>=20
> Infrastructure-based RO means that the RO end points (e.g. the proxies) a=
re operated by ISPs, so some trust can be elaborated between proxies and be=
tween proxies and HA. P2P expects nothing from the ISPs but fat pipes.
>=20
> I certainly agree that P2P RO has benefits, and we must study it for sure=
, for the exact reasons you give. I would not want to pay when I use my pho=
ne as intercom at home. In an emergency situation P2P RO is all you might g=
et, and you will certainly care less about billing, privacy and trust.=20
>=20
> OTOH, a solid world wide 4G solution requires the services I mentioned...
>=20
> Hopefully it is not one XOR the other, right?=20
>=20
> Pascal
>=20
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:20 PM
> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@=
orange-ftgroup.com
> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
> >
> >Hi Pascal,
> >
> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 11:55 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >escribi=F3:
> >> Hi Carlos :)
> >>
> >> I do not believe that the performance is the issue:
> >>
> >> If proxy Home Agents are deployed the way SGSNs are today, they will b=
e on the way and will not
> >cause a visible latency increase. But a proxy HA enables AAA, HA selecti=
on, billing, policy
> >enforcement, trust, and end-point privacy, which are strong ISP requirem=
ents.
> >
> >	Even if Home Agents are deployed in that way, there will be a high
> >latency component introduced by the celular network itself (we have
> >performed many real experiments and that delay is always no less than
> >100-150ms one-way). As far as I know, operators are working to improve
> >the performance (several years ago, the latency introduced by 2.5/3G
> >networks was even worse, about almost half a second).
> >
> >>
> >> OTOH, P2P might not require any of these features and thus, and a dire=
ct MR-to-MR RO would seem to
> >be the right approach for such applications.
> >>
> >> Since both scenarii are relevant, I believe there is room for both dir=
ect and infrastructure-based
> >RO mechanisms, depending on whether you are considering an ISP service o=
r a P2P.
> >
> >	I agree that both scenarios are relevant. But I also think that it is
> >also interesting to look at the issues you mentioned regarding ISPs and
> >operators when a RO scheme that do not make use of the infrastructure is
> >used, and seek for alternative solutions when a MR-to-MR approach is
> >used instead. Don't you agree that it would be better to always avoid
> >traversing the infrastructure if an alternative path which is shorter,
> >cheaper and provides a better performance is available?
> >
> >>
> >> Seems fair?
> >>
> >> Pascal
> >>
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
> >> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:17 AM
> >> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.comb=
es@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next St=
ep?
> >> >
> >> >Dear Pascal and all,
> >> >
> >> >	I also agree that personal router scenario is of interest. However I
> >> >think that for many of these scenarios, as other people has already
> >> >mentioned, in order to benefit from low delay and high bandwidth, it =
use
> >> >of celular network interfaces should be avoided. Therefore, I think t=
hat
> >> >for these scenarios, MR-to-MR RO optimisation schemes are the most
> >> >suitable ones. Doing RO in the infrastructure does not help so much i=
n
> >> >reducing the delay if you already have ~150ms of one-way delay using
> >> >UMTS (if two NEMOs are talking each other and both are connected usin=
g,
> >> >for example, UMTS, then you'll end up having 150x2=3D~300 ms of one w=
ay
> >> >delay!).
> >> >
> >> >	Regards,
> >> >
> >> >	Carlos J.
> >> >
> >> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 10:34 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >escribi=F3:
> >> >> Hi Ryuji and Vijay.
> >> >>
> >> >> I strongly agree that the personal router should be an item togethe=
r
> >> >> within the charter.
> >> >>
> >> >> Talking in various forum, we found interest in a Personal Area NEMO
> >> >> that:
> >> >>
> >> >> - Connects voice devices for VoIP (the main application)
> >> >> - Connects body sensors (medical devices, sportsmen, firemen, locat=
ion
> >> >> monitoring)
> >> >> - Connects Personal productivity devices (handheld)
> >> >>
> >> >> The type of requirements we found in this space:
> >> >>
> >> >> - for voice:
> >> >> a) Privacy: the device should not see the remote CoA
> >> >> b) Jitter/Latency: as usual... for instance the one way latency sho=
uld
> >> >> stay below 150ms
> >> >> c) Access: Compatibility/awareness with emerging access such as mes=
h
> >> >> networks.
> >> >> d) Service: A stable anchor point for AAA, policy and SLA enforceme=
nt.
> >> >>
> >> >> - for sensors:
> >> >> e) Layer 7 triggers: access network awareness (emergency dial, band=
width
> >> >> availability indication...)
> >> >>
> >> >> - for personal productivity devices
> >> >> f) VPN access
> >> >> g) Community of interest (user centric overlays, route projection)
> >> >>
> >> >> In particular, to answer Ryuji's question about RO, we can note tha=
t
> >> >> PANEMO:
> >> >>
> >> >> - demands a route optimization for NEMO for point b)
> >> >> - requires that the RO happens in the Infrastructure for point a)
> >> >> whereas g) is more P2P
> >> >> - pleads for regional proxy Home Agents for point d) (note, THIS NO=
T
> >> >> PMIP!!)
> >> >>
> >> >> Pascal
> >> >>
> >> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >> >From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA [mailto:ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com]
> >> >> >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:51 AM
> >> >> >To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >> >> >Cc: nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >> >Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next
> >> >> Step?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Hi Vijay
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit more.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When you said route optimization, what level of optimization is
> >> >> >required?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
> >> >> >I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
> >> >> >So, your problem must be not here.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
> >> >> >However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be skippe=
d
> >> >> >(i.e. same HA for two MRs).
> >> >> >In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be located i=
n
> >> >> >the cellular network.
> >> >> >The latency must be not so big (my guess).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I want to know where you want to optimize the path between two
> >> >> >personal MRs?!
> >> >> >
> >> >> >regards,
> >> >> >ryuji
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >On 2006/11/16, at 0:29, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Hi Jean-Michel,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> if there is more interest, I can write something
> >> >> >> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
> >> >> >> people would have gone to the mike and said
> >> >> >> something. the only person who went to the mike
> >> >> >> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Vijay
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> >>> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]
> >> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
> >> >> >>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >> >> >>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >> >>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Hi Vijay,
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session at=
 San
> >> >> >>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the Per=
sonal
> >> >> >>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo WG o=
n the
> >> >> >>> requirements for such a use case?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Thanks for the information.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Best regards.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> JMC.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >--
> >> >=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> >> > Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> >> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
> >--
> >=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> > Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
--=20
=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
 Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
 GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974


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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 17 12:01:24 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: comments on draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
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From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Vijay Devarapalli" <vijayd@iprg.nokia.com>
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Hi:

I performed some clean up and republished the draft, mostly as it was,
in order to restart the work on this dormant WG doc.

What was not changed (yet) is:

1) addition to DHAAD to located PD compatible HAs (my proposal, need
feedback)

2) Vijay's suggestion to get rid of the new bit to signal a full list is
required (see down this mail). Vijay proposes that the HA send back at
least one MNP option where the prefix is reset if there is no prefix
listed for that MR. We could also have a "full list" option with the
number of prefixes and then the prefixes one by one. We need to discuss
that...

What do you think?

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijayd@iprg.nokia.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 7:48 PM
>To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>Cc: nemo@ietf.org; tj@kniveton.com
>Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on
draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
>
>Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>
>>>>>I quickly glanced through this draft and have one concern.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Prefix Status (S) The Prefix Status (S) bit is set by a MR to
>>
>> request
>>
>>>>>>  the full list of all prefixes that are already assigned to it
>>>>>
>>>>>I dont like the new 'S' bit in the Binding Update and Binding
>>>>>Acknowledgement. bits are scarce, especially in the Binding
>>>>>Ack. instead why dont we introduce a bit in the Mobile Network
>>>>>Prefix Request option (section 6.4), which when set means the
>>>>>MR wants to know all the prefixes assigned to it and when not
>>>>>set, means the MR wishes to a get a new prefix assigned to it
>>>>>as a MNP? I am assuming the MR includes the Mobile Network
>>>>>Prefix Request option in both cases (getting the list of
>>>>>MNPs or a new MNP). and for the response the HA could set a
>>>>>bit in the prefix option (that carries the prefixes) to
>>>>>indicate the response contains the complete list of prefixes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>[<PT>] Hum... The MNPR and the full status requests have different
>>
>> semantics. I believe mixing
>>
>>>would be confusing. We had the same concerns as you have here, but
the
>>
>> alternate we considered to the
>>
>>>bit was a specific option, which seemed less overloading and
confusing.
>>
>> There was not much to say in
>>
>>>the option so we went for a bit, thinking that the list would decide.
>>>
>>>I would prefer a new option instead of the bit, if the mobile
>>>network prefix request option can't be used. another question,
>>>why does the MR care if the list contains the complete set of
>>>MNPs or not? can't we have something like, if the MR requests
>>>for information about the current set of prefixes assigned to
>>>it, the HA responds with the complete set of prefixes assigned
>>>to the MR. when would returning a partial list be useful? if
>>>you think a partial list is useful, how does the HA decide
>>>which set of MNPs to return?
>>>
>>
>> [<PT>] Well, it would be either asking for a new prefix or for the
>> complete list of all prefixes. There's no concept of partial list in
the
>> draft.
>
>I am more confused now. so why do we then need a bit to indicate
>"complete set of  prefixes", if the complete list of prefixes is
>always returned?
>
>the request for a new prefix is explicit through the inclusion of
>the Mobile Network Prefix Request option.
>
>>>isn't the MR response same in both cases? if the MR does not
>>>get a list or gets an empty list, it has to request for a new
>>>MNP to be assigned. so why bother?
>>
>> [<PT>] When the MR asks for the list (the bit is set) and the HA
>> responds with the bit set but nothing listed, the MR knows it needs
to
>> obtain new prefixes. OTOH, if the HA does not set the bit (no list)
then
>> the MR does not know what the HA has for it, which is the current
NEMO
>> support. The MR can try both implicit or explicit modes, but does not
>> necessarily need a new prefix delegated. You might see that as
backward
>> compatibility.
>
>forget the bit for now. I would really like to see the bit in
>the BU removed. here is one proposal.
>
>we define a new option, "MNP Information", that can be carried
>in a BU and BAck.
>
>- the MR wants to know what MNPs are assigned to it
>
>   the MR just sends a BU with the MNP Information option, with a
>   bit set to indicate that it is a request, to the HA. if the HA
>   implements draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation draft it responds
>   with a list of prefixes using the MNP Information option, but
>   with a bit set to indicate that it is a response. if there are
>   no prefixes assigned to the MR, the HA returns an empty MNP
>   Information option. if the HA happens to be a RFC 3963 HA that
>   does not implement draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation, it just
>   ignores the MNP Information option and includes nothing in the
>   Binding Ack. here I have avoided using the Mobile Network
>   Prefix option defined in RFC 3963. Mobile Network Prefix option
>   was designed to carry just one prefix. it can't carry mutliple
>   prefixes. to carry multiple prefixes, RFC 3963 says, multiple
>   MNP options have to be included in the BU.
>
>- the MR wants to get a new prefix assigned
>
>   the MR includes the Mobile Network Prefix Request option
>   (defined in draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation) in the BU
>   and gets the prefix from the HA. if the HA does not implement
>   draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation, then the option is ignored.
>
>let me know what you think about this proposal.
>
>Vijay




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From was@otakumw.com Sat Nov 18 12:58:25 2006
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From:	"funny plusher" <was@otakumw.com>
To: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: blueprint
Date:	Sat, 18 Nov 2006 11:57:13 -0600
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Stocks Quotes in attachement

Literature discussing good users.
Concrete round a makes Wembley achieve.
Above overall Page or.
Countries involved thought.
Pleased a couple of players arent found Portsmouth weekend done Saha is.
One boring in teams.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Stocks Quotes in =
attachement<BR><BR>Literature=20
discussing good users.<BR>Concrete round a makes Wembley =
achieve.<BR>Above=20
overall Page or.<BR>Countries involved thought.<BR>Pleased a couple of =
players=20
arent found Portsmouth weekend done Saha is.<BR>One boring in=20
teams.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Our a Main Menuenter Page Twoweb =
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Subject: RE: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:00:22 +0100
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Thread-Topic: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
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From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "K.Kawaguchi" <kawaguti@ysknet.co.jp>, <nemo@ietf.org>
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Dear all:

I suggest you take a look at=20
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-home-network-models-
06.txt=20
which has considerations for this problem.=20

It is quite a bit late by if you think that some text is missing please
let us know.=20

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: K.Kawaguchi [mailto:kawaguti@ysknet.co.jp]
>Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 10:00 AM
>To: nemo@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
>
>Hi,
>
>Romain KUNTZ wrote:
>>
>> Sri Gundavelli wrote:
>> > Using a HoA from MNP introduces some interesting situation, when
>> > the MR returns home. The MNP is anchored at the HA and when the
>> > MR returns home, there is no routing state for that prefix at
>> > the HA. At home, is the MR a bridge ? Is the prefix split between
>> > HA and MR and MR and itself ? If some one case fix the text in
>> > 3963 and address all the issues, I'm ok supporting this. Currently,
>> > we dont support this.
>>
>> When returning home, the MR could configure an autoconfigured address
on
>> its egress interface and send routing protocol messages (section
5.8).
>> Are there any issues with such solution?
>
>If the routing protocol is indispensable, I want to know which routing
>protocol should provide.
>I think that default is necessary to secure the interoperability and
the
>NEMO connection test between many products. I think the default only
now
>to be acceptable, even if the default will be changed in the future.
>
>
>Best regards
>---
>Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 20 06:54:18 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
From: "K.Kawaguchi" <kawaguti@ysknet.co.jp>
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Hi,

---
5.4.1  Mobile Router side

   The NEMO Basic Support does not mandate a specific routing protocol
   though the support for some well known routing protocols can be
   expected from many implementations.
---

When products mutually try connecting, products need same routing
protocol.
I want to learn what present well known routing protocols is.
It is the present consensus rather than the specification.


Best regards
---
Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI



Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

> Dear all:
> 
> I suggest you take a look at 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-home-network-models-
> 06.txt 
> which has considerations for this problem. 
> 
> It is quite a bit late by if you think that some text is missing please
> let us know. 
> 
> Pascal
> 
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: K.Kawaguchi [mailto:kawaguti@ysknet.co.jp]
> >Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 10:00 AM
> >To: nemo@ietf.org
> >Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >Romain KUNTZ wrote:
> >>
> >> Sri Gundavelli wrote:
> >> > Using a HoA from MNP introduces some interesting situation, when
> >> > the MR returns home. The MNP is anchored at the HA and when the
> >> > MR returns home, there is no routing state for that prefix at
> >> > the HA. At home, is the MR a bridge ? Is the prefix split between
> >> > HA and MR and MR and itself ? If some one case fix the text in
> >> > 3963 and address all the issues, I'm ok supporting this. Currently,
> >> > we dont support this.
> >>
> >> When returning home, the MR could configure an autoconfigured address
> on
> >> its egress interface and send routing protocol messages (section
> 5.8).
> >> Are there any issues with such solution?
> >
> >If the routing protocol is indispensable, I want to know which routing
> >protocol should provide.
> >I think that default is necessary to secure the interoperability and
> the
> >NEMO connection test between many products. I think the default only
> now
> >to be acceptable, even if the default will be changed in the future.
> >
> >
> >Best regards
> >---
> >Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI
> 
> 





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K.Kawaguchi wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> --- 5.4.1  Mobile Router side
> 
> The NEMO Basic Support does not mandate a specific routing protocol
>  though the support for some well known routing protocols can be 
> expected from many implementations. ---
> 
> When products mutually try connecting, products need same routing 
> protocol.

Yes, MR and HA shoudl run same routing protocol (if they use routing
protocol).

> I want to learn what present well known routing protocols is. It is
>  the present consensus rather than the specification.

My assumption is that in such a context (MR and HA of same domain)
OSPF is best suited as routing protocol.  BGP is probably too much
burden for smaller contexts where NEMO is pertinent.  I don't mean
that BGP is prohibited by NEMO.

RIP is another interior routing protocol, but seems to be less
preferred by recent (10 years?) deployments.

IS-IS was mentioned in earlier discussions too.

Just an oppinion, and there may be other routing protocols.

Alex





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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 21 04:31:37 2006
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To: alexandru.petrescu@motorola.com
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
From: "K.Kawaguchi" <kawaguti@ysknet.co.jp>
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Hi,

Thank you for the opinion.

I understand NEMO doesn't provide for the routing protocol.
On the other hand, the test condition of IPv6 Ready Logo NEMO will be
fixed to the one routing protocol. However, please understand we don't
intend that one routing protocol be 'MUST'. Because the same routing
protocol is necessary to connect, we have to choose one routing protocol
for the test.


Best regards
---
Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI



In message <4561A83F.20807@motorola.com>
"Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo"
"Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@motorola.com>" wrote:

> K.Kawaguchi wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > --- 5.4.1  Mobile Router side
> > 
> > The NEMO Basic Support does not mandate a specific routing protocol
> >  though the support for some well known routing protocols can be 
> > expected from many implementations. ---
> > 
> > When products mutually try connecting, products need same routing 
> > protocol.
> 
> Yes, MR and HA shoudl run same routing protocol (if they use routing
> protocol).
> 
> > I want to learn what present well known routing protocols is. It is
> >  the present consensus rather than the specification.
> 
> My assumption is that in such a context (MR and HA of same domain)
> OSPF is best suited as routing protocol.  BGP is probably too much
> burden for smaller contexts where NEMO is pertinent.  I don't mean
> that BGP is prohibited by NEMO.
> 
> RIP is another interior routing protocol, but seems to be less
> preferred by recent (10 years?) deployments.
> 
> IS-IS was mentioned in earlier discussions too.
> 
> Just an oppinion, and there may be other routing protocols.
> 
> Alex
> 
> 
> 





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From: Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
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On 2006/11/21, at 18:30, K.Kawaguchi wrote:

> I understand NEMO doesn't provide for the routing protocol.
> On the other hand, the test condition of IPv6 Ready Logo NEMO will be
> fixed to the one routing protocol. However, please understand we don't
> intend that one routing protocol be 'MUST'. Because the same routing
> protocol is necessary to connect, we have to choose one routing  
> protocol
> for the test.

If I remember correctly, running a routing protocol between a mobile  
router and a home agent is not a MUST item.

Some implementations may not implement the dynamic routing part, but  
we can still call them RFC3963 compliant.  The dynamic routing  
protocol test may be in the advanced test spec, but should not be in  
the basic test spec, I think.

---
Keiichi SHIMA
IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net>
WIDE Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>







From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 21 05:41:42 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
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Hi,

I do the supplementation explanation of Logo NEMO.
We will divide the category of Logo NEMO.
It is the following when enumerating it in the example based on
draft-ietf-nemo-home-network-models-06.txt.


models          | Home address from   | Home address from
                | Home network Prefix | Mobile network prefix
----------------------------------------------------------------
NEMO Extended   |           1         |         2
Home Network    |                     |
----------------------------------------------------------------
NEMO Aggregated |           3         |         4
Home Network    |                     |
----------------------------------------------------------------


The product of each area doesn't have the interconnectivity. Moreover,
there is not default either. Therefore, we divide separately on NEMO LOGO.
(A rich product will cover two or more areas.)

Because routing protocol is not necessary in area-1, routing protocol is
not put under the area-1 test condition.
Because routing protocol is necessary in area-2, one routing protocol is
decided under the area-2 test condition.
I'm sorry, we are examining many about area-3 and area-4.


Best regards
---
Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI



Keiichi SHIMA wrote:

> On 2006/11/21, at 18:30, K.Kawaguchi wrote:
> 
> > I understand NEMO doesn't provide for the routing protocol.
> > On the other hand, the test condition of IPv6 Ready Logo NEMO will be
> > fixed to the one routing protocol. However, please understand we don't
> > intend that one routing protocol be 'MUST'. Because the same routing
> > protocol is necessary to connect, we have to choose one routing  
> > protocol
> > for the test.
> 
> If I remember correctly, running a routing protocol between a mobile  
> router and a home agent is not a MUST item.
> 
> Some implementations may not implement the dynamic routing part, but  
> we can still call them RFC3963 compliant.  The dynamic routing  
> protocol test may be in the advanced test spec, but should not be in  
> the basic test spec, I think.
> 
> ---
> Keiichi SHIMA
> IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net>
> WIDE Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>





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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 22 16:48:40 2006
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All,

I have reviewed this document and I have no major
issues with it.

This draft will be moved forward to full IESG
review which happens next week, hopefully.

--Jari





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 23 04:16:31 2006
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From: Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 17:15:19 +0800
To: nemo@ietf.org
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Hi,

On 2006/11/21, at 18:41, K.Kawaguchi wrote:

> models          | Home address from   | Home address from
>                 | Home network Prefix | Mobile network prefix
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> NEMO Extended   |           1         |         2
> Home Network    |                     |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> NEMO Aggregated |           3         |         4
> Home Network    |                     |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> The product of each area doesn't have the interconnectivity. Moreover,
> there is not default either. Therefore, we divide separately on  
> NEMO LOGO.
> (A rich product will cover two or more areas.)
>
> Because routing protocol is not necessary in area-1, routing  
> protocol is
> not put under the area-1 test condition.
> Because routing protocol is necessary in area-2, one routing  
> protocol is
> decided under the area-2 test condition.

I think, there is no relationship between the mechanism to inject  
routing entries and the method from where we get a home address  
(either from a home network prefix or mobile network prefix).

We can put a routing entry either by statically or dynamically  
regardless of the original location of the home address.  So, even in  
the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the mobile network prefix  
by not using any routing protocol.  And of course we can use a  
routing protocol for the case 1.

---
Keiichi SHIMA
IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net>
WIDE Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>







From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 23 12:01:51 2006
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All,

I have reviewed this document and I have no
issues with it.

This draft will be moved forward to full IESG
review.

--Jari





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 23 20:23:35 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
From: "K.Kawaguchi" <kawaguti@ysknet.co.jp>
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Hi,

> So, even in  
> the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the mobile network prefix  
> by not using any routing protocol.

Please teach the method of not using routing protocol.
Is there draft or RFC ?


Best regards
---
Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI



"Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>" wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 2006/11/21, at 18:41, K.Kawaguchi wrote:
> 
> > models          | Home address from   | Home address from
> >                 | Home network Prefix | Mobile network prefix
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > NEMO Extended   |           1         |         2
> > Home Network    |                     |
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > NEMO Aggregated |           3         |         4
> > Home Network    |                     |
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > The product of each area doesn't have the interconnectivity. Moreover,
> > there is not default either. Therefore, we divide separately on  
> > NEMO LOGO.
> > (A rich product will cover two or more areas.)
> >
> > Because routing protocol is not necessary in area-1, routing  
> > protocol is
> > not put under the area-1 test condition.
> > Because routing protocol is necessary in area-2, one routing  
> > protocol is
> > decided under the area-2 test condition.
> 
> I think, there is no relationship between the mechanism to inject  
> routing entries and the method from where we get a home address  
> (either from a home network prefix or mobile network prefix).
> 
> We can put a routing entry either by statically or dynamically  
> regardless of the original location of the home address.  So, even in  
> the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the mobile network prefix  
> by not using any routing protocol.  And of course we can use a  
> routing protocol for the case 1.
> 
> ---
> Keiichi SHIMA
> IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net>
> WIDE Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>

Best regards
---
Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI





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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 24 17:31:55 2006
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Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:30:49 +0100
From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
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Subject: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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Dear all,

Chair's hat on:

First, I would like to thank Vijay for bringing the Personal Router
usage up on this mailing list.  The reason why in the charter we only
mentioned about the aviation use case and the automotive use case is
simply that no one brought the PAN use case on the list.

So,  the number of comments we got from folks in various kind of
industry tend to demonstrate the tremendous interest this topic could
have and also the impact on consumer electronic business (I suspect that
the aviation and the automotive use cases wouldn't be deployed as
quickly as PANs for medecine, emergency units, families, wheelchair,
sports, etc.).

And, yes, the questions for which we need an answer is:
- what kind of RO must be supported,
- what kind of multihoming configuration,
- what kind of NEMO BU registration (explicit / implicit)
- what kind of Prefix Delegation
- what kind of AAA
- etc

My proposition would be to add it explictly in the charter together with
the aviation industry and the automotive industry requirements.

Thierry.




On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:37:01 +0100
Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano <cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote:

>Hi Pascal:
>
>	I also agree that both options (proxy-RO and MR-to-MR) should be
>carefully studied. However, my point was that I think that also in
>operator-driven scenarios it should be studied how to apply MR-to-MR RO
>schemes, in addition of the approach of using RO proxies deployed in the
>Internet. The reasoning behind this is that the best path between two
>NEMOs would always be the direct one between MRs. By using proxy RO
>entities on the infrastructure, there will always be a trade-off between
>number of proxy RO entities and the level of optimisation that is
>required.
>
>	In summary, I'm not against of studying proxy-RO schemes, but I think
>that we should not limit the applicability of MR-to-MR approaches to
>emergency scenarios.
>
>	Kind Regards,
>
>	Carlos J.
>
>El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 16:20 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>escribi=F3:
>> Hi Carlos:
>>=20
>> Now I'm confused. I do agree that 2.5G/3G introduces latency. But the =
infrastructure we talk about is the Internet as opposed to an ISP xG netw=
ork, so this was not my discussion.=20
>>=20
>> Infrastructure-based RO means that the RO end points (e.g. the proxies=
) are operated by ISPs, so some trust can be elaborated between proxies a=
nd between proxies and HA. P2P expects nothing from the ISPs but fat pipe=
s.
>>=20
>> I certainly agree that P2P RO has benefits, and we must study it for s=
ure, for the exact reasons you give. I would not want to pay when I use m=
y phone as intercom at home. In an emergency situation P2P RO is all you =
might get, and you will certainly care less about billing, privacy and tr=
ust.=20
>>=20
>> OTOH, a solid world wide 4G solution requires the services I mentioned=
...
>>=20
>> Hopefully it is not one XOR the other, right?=20
>>=20
>> Pascal
>>=20
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
>> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:20 PM
>> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.comb=
es@orange-ftgroup.com
>> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next St=
ep?
>> >
>> >Hi Pascal,
>> >
>> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 11:55 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>> >escribi=F3:
>> >> Hi Carlos :)
>> >>
>> >> I do not believe that the performance is the issue:
>> >>
>> >> If proxy Home Agents are deployed the way SGSNs are today, they wil=
l be on the way and will not
>> >cause a visible latency increase. But a proxy HA enables AAA, HA sele=
ction, billing, policy
>> >enforcement, trust, and end-point privacy, which are strong ISP requi=
rements.
>> >
>> >	Even if Home Agents are deployed in that way, there will be a high
>> >latency component introduced by the celular network itself (we have
>> >performed many real experiments and that delay is always no less than
>> >100-150ms one-way). As far as I know, operators are working to improv=
e
>> >the performance (several years ago, the latency introduced by 2.5/3G
>> >networks was even worse, about almost half a second).
>> >
>> >>
>> >> OTOH, P2P might not require any of these features and thus, and a d=
irect MR-to-MR RO would seem to
>> >be the right approach for such applications.
>> >>
>> >> Since both scenarii are relevant, I believe there is room for both =
direct and infrastructure-based
>> >RO mechanisms, depending on whether you are considering an ISP servic=
e or a P2P.
>> >
>> >	I agree that both scenarios are relevant. But I also think that it i=
s
>> >also interesting to look at the issues you mentioned regarding ISPs a=
nd
>> >operators when a RO scheme that do not make use of the infrastructure=
 is
>> >used, and seek for alternative solutions when a MR-to-MR approach is
>> >used instead. Don't you agree that it would be better to always avoid
>> >traversing the infrastructure if an alternative path which is shorter=
,
>> >cheaper and provides a better performance is available?
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Seems fair?
>> >>
>> >> Pascal
>> >>
>> >> >-----Original Message-----
>> >> >From: Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
>> >> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:17 AM
>> >> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>> >> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.c=
ombes@orange-ftgroup.com
>> >> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next=
 Step?
>> >> >
>> >> >Dear Pascal and all,
>> >> >
>> >> >	I also agree that personal router scenario is of interest. Howeve=
r I
>> >> >think that for many of these scenarios, as other people has alread=
y
>> >> >mentioned, in order to benefit from low delay and high bandwidth, =
it use
>> >> >of celular network interfaces should be avoided. Therefore, I thin=
k that
>> >> >for these scenarios, MR-to-MR RO optimisation schemes are the most
>> >> >suitable ones. Doing RO in the infrastructure does not help so muc=
h in
>> >> >reducing the delay if you already have ~150ms of one-way delay usi=
ng
>> >> >UMTS (if two NEMOs are talking each other and both are connected u=
sing,
>> >> >for example, UMTS, then you'll end up having 150x2=3D~300 ms of on=
e way
>> >> >delay!).
>> >> >
>> >> >	Regards,
>> >> >
>> >> >	Carlos J.
>> >> >
>> >> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 10:34 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>> >> >escribi=F3:
>> >> >> Hi Ryuji and Vijay.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I strongly agree that the personal router should be an item toge=
ther
>> >> >> within the charter.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Talking in various forum, we found interest in a Personal Area N=
EMO
>> >> >> that:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - Connects voice devices for VoIP (the main application)
>> >> >> - Connects body sensors (medical devices, sportsmen, firemen, lo=
cation
>> >> >> monitoring)
>> >> >> - Connects Personal productivity devices (handheld)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The type of requirements we found in this space:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - for voice:
>> >> >> a) Privacy: the device should not see the remote CoA
>> >> >> b) Jitter/Latency: as usual... for instance the one way latency =
should
>> >> >> stay below 150ms
>> >> >> c) Access: Compatibility/awareness with emerging access such as =
mesh
>> >> >> networks.
>> >> >> d) Service: A stable anchor point for AAA, policy and SLA enforc=
ement.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - for sensors:
>> >> >> e) Layer 7 triggers: access network awareness (emergency dial, b=
andwidth
>> >> >> availability indication...)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - for personal productivity devices
>> >> >> f) VPN access
>> >> >> g) Community of interest (user centric overlays, route projectio=
n)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In particular, to answer Ryuji's question about RO, we can note =
that
>> >> >> PANEMO:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - demands a route optimization for NEMO for point b)
>> >> >> - requires that the RO happens in the Infrastructure for point a=
)
>> >> >> whereas g) is more P2P
>> >> >> - pleads for regional proxy Home Agents for point d) (note, THIS=
 NOT
>> >> >> PMIP!!)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Pascal
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >-----Original Message-----
>> >> >> >From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA [mailto:ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com]
>> >> >> >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:51 AM
>> >> >> >To: Vijay Devarapalli
>> >> >> >Cc: nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>> >> >> >Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: N=
ext
>> >> >> Step?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Hi Vijay
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit more.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >When you said route optimization, what level of optimization is
>> >> >> >required?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
>> >> >> >I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
>> >> >> >So, your problem must be not here.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
>> >> >> >However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be ski=
pped
>> >> >> >(i.e. same HA for two MRs).
>> >> >> >In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be locate=
d in
>> >> >> >the cellular network.
>> >> >> >The latency must be not so big (my guess).
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I want to know where you want to optimize the path between two
>> >> >> >personal MRs?!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >regards,
>> >> >> >ryuji
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >On 2006/11/16, at 0:29, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Hi Jean-Michel,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> if there is more interest, I can write something
>> >> >> >> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
>> >> >> >> people would have gone to the mike and said
>> >> >> >> something. the only person who went to the mike
>> >> >> >> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Vijay
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> >>> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com=
]
>> >> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
>> >> >> >>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
>> >> >> >>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
>> >> >> >>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Hi Vijay,
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session=
 at San
>> >> >> >>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the =
Personal
>> >> >> >>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo W=
G on the
>> >> >> >>> requirements for such a use case?
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Thanks for the information.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Best regards.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> JMC.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >--
>> >> >=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
>> >> > Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
>> >> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
>> >--
>> >=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
>> > Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
>> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
>--=20
>=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
>
>




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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 24 22:48:29 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
From: Chan-Wah NG <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
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On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 23:30 +0100, Thierry Ernst wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> Chair's hat on:
> 
> First, I would like to thank Vijay for bringing the Personal Router
> usage up on this mailing list.  The reason why in the charter we only
> mentioned about the aviation use case and the automotive use case is
> simply that no one brought the PAN use case on the list.
> 
> So,  the number of comments we got from folks in various kind of
> industry tend to demonstrate the tremendous interest this topic could
> have and also the impact on consumer electronic business (I suspect that
> the aviation and the automotive use cases wouldn't be deployed as
> quickly as PANs for medecine, emergency units, families, wheelchair,
> sports, etc.).
> 
> And, yes, the questions for which we need an answer is:
> - what kind of RO must be supported,
> - what kind of multihoming configuration,
> - what kind of NEMO BU registration (explicit / implicit)
> - what kind of Prefix Delegation
> - what kind of AAA
> - etc
> 
> My proposition would be to add it explictly in the charter together with
> the aviation industry and the automotive industry requirements.
> 

Hello thierry,

I agree with that.  That was a good list of questions as well.  However,
gathering requirements from such a wide-ranging spread of industries is
gonna be a daunting task :)

I could contribute some from the perspective of a consumer electronics
vendor.

/rgds
/cwng






From its@acornbusiness.com Sat Nov 25 02:14:55 2006
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From:	"Penfield" <its@acornbusiness.com>
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Subject: efforts Analysis taken
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 25 05:43:36 2006
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From: Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:29:43 +0800
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On 2006/11/24, at 9:22, K.Kawaguchi wrote:

>> So, even in
>> the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the mobile network prefix
>> by not using any routing protocol.
>
> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol.
> Is there draft or RFC ?

Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can install a  
routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack message.  The  
home agent of the mobile node will know the mobile network prefix  
stored in a binding update message from the mobile node, it can also  
install a routing entry when it receives the binding update message.

I don't think there is a document that describes how the routing  
table is manipulated without routing protocols, but I believe most of  
the implementations do the same things as above, I guess.

---
Keiichi SHIMA
IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net>
WIDE Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>







From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 25 06:35:16 2006
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From: Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 20:34:34 +0900
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On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:

>>> So, even in
>>> the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the mobile network prefix
>>> by not using any routing protocol.
>>
>> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol.
>> Is there draft or RFC ?
>
> Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can install  
> a routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack message.   
> The home agent of the mobile node will know the mobile network  
> prefix stored in a binding update message from the mobile node, it  
> can also install a routing entry when it receives the binding  
> update message.

Some more minor additional notes...

The above example is for the explicit mode.  And if we use implicit  
mode, then these two entities already know what to do when  
registration completes.  So either using a dynamic routing or not is  
just a configuration issue for route management and it has nothing to  
do with the network model.

# if I'm not missing something.

---
Keiichi SHIMA
IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net>
WIDE Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>







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Subject: [nemo] CALL FOR WORKSHOP PROPOSALS 
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    [Our apologies if you receive multiple copies of this message]

     ************************************************************
     *                 CALL FOR WORKSHOP PROPOSALS              *
     *                                                          *
     *                      ACCESSNETS 2007                     *
     *  The Second International Conference on Access Networks  *
     *       August 22-24, 2007, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada        *
     *            http://www.accessnets.org/2007/               *
     *                                                          *
     ************************************************************

                 Co-Sponsored by Create-Net and ICST

     In tehnical cooperation with IEEE ComSoc (approval pending)

OVERVIEW: 
The annual International Conference on Access Networks (AccessNets) is 
an exciting forum that brings together scientists and researchers from 
academia as well as managers and engineers from industry and government

organizations to meet and exchange ideas and recent work on all aspects

of access networks and how they integrate with their in-home 
counterparts. AccessNets'07 is the second edition of this exciting
event, which 
will be held in Ottawa, the beautiful and historical capital city of 
Canada, in August 2007. The conference will consist of technical
sessions, 
workshops, and panels. The technical sessions will present original and

fundamental research advances while the workshops and panels will focus

on development, application, and related business issues in this hot 
and exciting area.  Topics of interests include all aspects of access 
networks.

WHAT TO SUBMIT: 
We solicit workshop proposals on new and emerging topics in wired and 
wireless access networks, services, and applications. A proposal should

focus on a specific theme of current interest and can attract 
high-quality submissions. Proposals for one-day workshops to be held in

conjunction with the conference are solicited. A proposal can be a
maximum of 2 
pages long and should clearly identify the theme and specific topics of

interest which define the scope of the workshop. The proposal should 
also include the workshop chairs and a list of program committee
members.

PROPOSAL SUBMISSION: 
Please send workshop proposals in PDF format by February 15, 2007 to 
the workshop co-chairs, Dr. Martin Maier and Dr. Yang Xiao.

IMPORTANT DATES:		

Proposal submission due                 February 15, 2007
Notification of acceptance              May 31, 2007
Workshop date                           August 22, 2007


WORKSHOP CO-CHAIRS
Martin Maier
University of Quebec, Canada

Yang Xiao
University of Alabama, USA

GENERAL CHAIR of ACCESSNETS 2007
Jun Zheng, University of Ottawa, Canada
        




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 26 11:56:05 2006
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To: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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Thierry Ernst wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> Chair's hat on:
> 
> First, I would like to thank Vijay for bringing the Personal Router
> usage up on this mailing list.  The reason why in the charter we only
> mentioned about the aviation use case and the automotive use case is
> simply that no one brought the PAN use case on the list.
> 
> So,  the number of comments we got from folks in various kind of
> industry tend to demonstrate the tremendous interest this topic could
> have and also the impact on consumer electronic business (I suspect that
> the aviation and the automotive use cases wouldn't be deployed as
> quickly as PANs for medecine, emergency units, families, wheelchair,
> sports, etc.).
> 
> And, yes, the questions for which we need an answer is:
> - what kind of RO must be supported,
> - what kind of multihoming configuration,
> - what kind of NEMO BU registration (explicit / implicit)
> - what kind of Prefix Delegation
> - what kind of AAA
> - etc

Does PMR run IPv6 or IPv4.  Does it run Mobile IPv6 or Mobile IPv4. 
These are simple questions but set the starting point.

Alex





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 26 13:11:20 2006
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Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
> Thierry Ernst wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Chair's hat on:
>>
>> First, I would like to thank Vijay for bringing the Personal Router
>> usage up on this mailing list.  The reason why in the charter we only
>> mentioned about the aviation use case and the automotive use case is
>> simply that no one brought the PAN use case on the list.
>>
>> So,  the number of comments we got from folks in various kind of
>> industry tend to demonstrate the tremendous interest this topic could
>> have and also the impact on consumer electronic business (I suspect that
>> the aviation and the automotive use cases wouldn't be deployed as
>> quickly as PANs for medecine, emergency units, families, wheelchair,
>> sports, etc.).
>>
>> And, yes, the questions for which we need an answer is:
>> - what kind of RO must be supported,
>> - what kind of multihoming configuration,
>> - what kind of NEMO BU registration (explicit / implicit)
>> - what kind of Prefix Delegation
>> - what kind of AAA
>> - etc
> 
> Does PMR run IPv6 or IPv4.  Does it run Mobile IPv6 or Mobile IPv4. 
> These are simple questions but set the starting point.

ofcourse IPv6, since we are working on this in
the NEMO WG. IPv4 PMRs are already commercially
sold today with a NAT on them. I don't think we
need to do anything new there.

Vijay




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 26 13:12:55 2006
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Thierry Ernst wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> Chair's hat on:
> 
> First, I would like to thank Vijay for bringing the Personal Router
> usage up on this mailing list.  The reason why in the charter we only
> mentioned about the aviation use case and the automotive use case is
> simply that no one brought the PAN use case on the list.
> 
> So,  the number of comments we got from folks in various kind of
> industry tend to demonstrate the tremendous interest this topic could
> have and also the impact on consumer electronic business (I suspect that
> the aviation and the automotive use cases wouldn't be deployed as
> quickly as PANs for medecine, emergency units, families, wheelchair,
> sports, etc.).
> 
> And, yes, the questions for which we need an answer is:
> - what kind of RO must be supported,
> - what kind of multihoming configuration,
> - what kind of NEMO BU registration (explicit / implicit)
> - what kind of Prefix Delegation
> - what kind of AAA
> - etc
> 
> My proposition would be to add it explictly in the charter together with
> the aviation industry and the automotive industry requirements.

thanks. I agree.

I can work on a short document that describes the
scope of the problem (and requirements).

Vijay




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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 26 18:45:26 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 15:44:20 -0800
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Thread-Topic: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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From: "Davis, Terry L" <terry.l.davis@boeing.com>
To: "Thierry Ernst" <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>, "ml-nemo" <nemo@ietf.org>
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Thierry/Vijay

This could conceivably be one of the most important developments on the
horizon for the Internet community as it could mark a completely new
direction in personal communications allowing us to tie our personal,
work, and community service (volunteering) communications all together.

I strongly support the addition.

Take care
Terry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thierry Ernst [mailto:thierry.ernst@inria.fr]
> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:31 PM
> To: ml-nemo
> Subject: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
>=20
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> Chair's hat on:
>=20
> First, I would like to thank Vijay for bringing the Personal Router
> usage up on this mailing list.  The reason why in the charter we only
> mentioned about the aviation use case and the automotive use case is
> simply that no one brought the PAN use case on the list.
>=20
> So,  the number of comments we got from folks in various kind of
> industry tend to demonstrate the tremendous interest this topic could
> have and also the impact on consumer electronic business (I suspect
that
> the aviation and the automotive use cases wouldn't be deployed as
> quickly as PANs for medecine, emergency units, families, wheelchair,
> sports, etc.).
>=20
> And, yes, the questions for which we need an answer is:
> - what kind of RO must be supported,
> - what kind of multihoming configuration,
> - what kind of NEMO BU registration (explicit / implicit)
> - what kind of Prefix Delegation
> - what kind of AAA
> - etc
>=20
> My proposition would be to add it explictly in the charter together
with
> the aviation industry and the automotive industry requirements.
>=20
> Thierry.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:37:01 +0100
> Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano <cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>=20
> >Hi Pascal:
> >
> >	I also agree that both options (proxy-RO and MR-to-MR) should be
> >carefully studied. However, my point was that I think that also in
> >operator-driven scenarios it should be studied how to apply MR-to-MR
RO
> >schemes, in addition of the approach of using RO proxies deployed in
the
> >Internet. The reasoning behind this is that the best path between two
> >NEMOs would always be the direct one between MRs. By using proxy RO
> >entities on the infrastructure, there will always be a trade-off
between
> >number of proxy RO entities and the level of optimisation that is
> >required.
> >
> >	In summary, I'm not against of studying proxy-RO schemes, but I
> think
> >that we should not limit the applicability of MR-to-MR approaches to
> >emergency scenarios.
> >
> >	Kind Regards,
> >
> >	Carlos J.
> >
> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 16:20 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >escribi:
> >> Hi Carlos:
> >>
> >> Now I'm confused. I do agree that 2.5G/3G introduces latency. But
the
> infrastructure we talk about is the Internet as opposed to an ISP xG
> network, so this was not my discussion.
> >>
> >> Infrastructure-based RO means that the RO end points (e.g. the
proxies)
> are operated by ISPs, so some trust can be elaborated between proxies
and
> between proxies and HA. P2P expects nothing from the ISPs but fat
pipes.
> >>
> >> I certainly agree that P2P RO has benefits, and we must study it
for
> sure, for the exact reasons you give. I would not want to pay when I
use
> my phone as intercom at home. In an emergency situation P2P RO is all
you
> might get, and you will certainly care less about billing, privacy and
> trust.
> >>
> >> OTOH, a solid world wide 4G solution requires the services I
> mentioned...
> >>
> >> Hopefully it is not one XOR the other, right?
> >>
> >> Pascal
> >>
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
> >> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:20 PM
> >> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org;
> jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next
> Step?
> >> >
> >> >Hi Pascal,
> >> >
> >> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 11:55 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >escribi:
> >> >> Hi Carlos :)
> >> >>
> >> >> I do not believe that the performance is the issue:
> >> >>
> >> >> If proxy Home Agents are deployed the way SGSNs are today, they
will
> be on the way and will not
> >> >cause a visible latency increase. But a proxy HA enables AAA, HA
> selection, billing, policy
> >> >enforcement, trust, and end-point privacy, which are strong ISP
> requirements.
> >> >
> >> >	Even if Home Agents are deployed in that way, there will be a
high
> >> >latency component introduced by the celular network itself (we
have
> >> >performed many real experiments and that delay is always no less
than
> >> >100-150ms one-way). As far as I know, operators are working to
improve
> >> >the performance (several years ago, the latency introduced by
2.5/3G
> >> >networks was even worse, about almost half a second).
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> OTOH, P2P might not require any of these features and thus, and
a
> direct MR-to-MR RO would seem to
> >> >be the right approach for such applications.
> >> >>
> >> >> Since both scenarii are relevant, I believe there is room for
both
> direct and infrastructure-based
> >> >RO mechanisms, depending on whether you are considering an ISP
service
> or a P2P.
> >> >
> >> >	I agree that both scenarios are relevant. But I also think that
it
> is
> >> >also interesting to look at the issues you mentioned regarding
ISPs
> and
> >> >operators when a RO scheme that do not make use of the
infrastructure
> is
> >> >used, and seek for alternative solutions when a MR-to-MR approach
is
> >> >used instead. Don't you agree that it would be better to always
avoid
> >> >traversing the infrastructure if an alternative path which is
shorter,
> >> >cheaper and provides a better performance is available?
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Seems fair?
> >> >>
> >> >> Pascal
> >> >>
> >> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >> >From: Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
> >> >> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:17 AM
> >> >> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org;
> jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router:
Next
> Step?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Dear Pascal and all,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >	I also agree that personal router scenario is of
interest.
> However I
> >> >> >think that for many of these scenarios, as other people has
already
> >> >> >mentioned, in order to benefit from low delay and high
bandwidth,
> it use
> >> >> >of celular network interfaces should be avoided. Therefore, I
think
> that
> >> >> >for these scenarios, MR-to-MR RO optimisation schemes are the
most
> >> >> >suitable ones. Doing RO in the infrastructure does not help so
much
> in
> >> >> >reducing the delay if you already have ~150ms of one-way delay
> using
> >> >> >UMTS (if two NEMOs are talking each other and both are
connected
> using,
> >> >> >for example, UMTS, then you'll end up having 150x2=3D~300 ms of
one
> way
> >> >> >delay!).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >	Regards,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >	Carlos J.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 10:34 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >> >escribi:
> >> >> >> Hi Ryuji and Vijay.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I strongly agree that the personal router should be an item
> together
> >> >> >> within the charter.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Talking in various forum, we found interest in a Personal
Area
> NEMO
> >> >> >> that:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - Connects voice devices for VoIP (the main application)
> >> >> >> - Connects body sensors (medical devices, sportsmen, firemen,
> location
> >> >> >> monitoring)
> >> >> >> - Connects Personal productivity devices (handheld)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The type of requirements we found in this space:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - for voice:
> >> >> >> a) Privacy: the device should not see the remote CoA
> >> >> >> b) Jitter/Latency: as usual... for instance the one way
latency
> should
> >> >> >> stay below 150ms
> >> >> >> c) Access: Compatibility/awareness with emerging access such
as
> mesh
> >> >> >> networks.
> >> >> >> d) Service: A stable anchor point for AAA, policy and SLA
> enforcement.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - for sensors:
> >> >> >> e) Layer 7 triggers: access network awareness (emergency
dial,
> bandwidth
> >> >> >> availability indication...)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - for personal productivity devices
> >> >> >> f) VPN access
> >> >> >> g) Community of interest (user centric overlays, route
> projection)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> In particular, to answer Ryuji's question about RO, we can
note
> that
> >> >> >> PANEMO:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - demands a route optimization for NEMO for point b)
> >> >> >> - requires that the RO happens in the Infrastructure for
point a)
> >> >> >> whereas g) is more P2P
> >> >> >> - pleads for regional proxy Home Agents for point d) (note,
THIS
> NOT
> >> >> >> PMIP!!)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Pascal
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >> >> >From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA [mailto:ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com]
> >> >> >> >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:51 AM
> >> >> >> >To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >> >> >> >Cc: nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >> >> >Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile
Router:
> Next
> >> >> >> Step?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Hi Vijay
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit
more.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >When you said route optimization, what level of optimization
is
> >> >> >> >required?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
> >> >> >> >I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
> >> >> >> >So, your problem must be not here.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
> >> >> >> >However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be
> skipped
> >> >> >> >(i.e. same HA for two MRs).
> >> >> >> >In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be
located
> in
> >> >> >> >the cellular network.
> >> >> >> >The latency must be not so big (my guess).
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >I want to know where you want to optimize the path between
two
> >> >> >> >personal MRs?!
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >regards,
> >> >> >> >ryuji
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >On 2006/11/16, at 0:29, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> Hi Jean-Michel,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> if there is more interest, I can write something
> >> >> >> >> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
> >> >> >> >> people would have gone to the mike and said
> >> >> >> >> something. the only person who went to the mike
> >> >> >> >> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Vijay
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> >> >>> From: Jean-Michel Combes
[mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]
> >> >> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
> >> >> >> >>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >> >> >> >>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >> >> >>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Hi Vijay,
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo
session
> at San
> >> >> >> >>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding
the
> Personal
> >> >> >> >>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the
Nemo WG
> on the
> >> >> >> >>> requirements for such a use case?
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Thanks for the information.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Best regards.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> JMC.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >--
> >> >> >ASCIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> >> >> > Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> >> >> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
> >> >--
> >> >ASCIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> >> > Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> >> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
> >--
> >ASCIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> > Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
> >
> >





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 26 20:49:52 2006
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Hi,

"Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>" wrote:
> On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
> 
> >>> So, even in
> >>> the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the mobile network prefix
> >>> by not using any routing protocol.
> >>
> >> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol.
> >> Is there draft or RFC ?
> >
> > Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can install  
> > a routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack message.   
> > The home agent of the mobile node will know the mobile network  
> > prefix stored in a binding update message from the mobile node, it  
> > can also install a routing entry when it receives the binding  
> > update message.
> 
> Some more minor additional notes...
> 
> The above example is for the explicit mode.  And if we use implicit  
> mode, then these two entities already know what to do when  
> registration completes.  So either using a dynamic routing or not is  
> just a configuration issue for route management and it has nothing to  
> do with the network model.
> 
> # if I'm not missing something.

I still have my uncertain point.
Please look at the following figures.

                   |
                   HA1
                   |
  -----+-----+-----+-----+----- Home Link: A:B:C:0::/64
       |     |           |
       |     |           | MR1-egress
       H     R(MR)       MR1
             |           | MR1-ingress (Home Address)
                         |
                        -+----- Mobile Network: A:B:C:i::/64


I agree as you say, HA and MR can install own routing table entry by
binding message. However, how do you tell it to other nodes on home
network?
How do you do when MR1 moves from the home link and the binding message
is completed? Also, how do you do when MR1 returns to the home link?


Best regards
---
Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 26 21:56:15 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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Hi, all.

Vijay, you said PMR4v4 is already sold in commercial market.
Did you mean IXI solution or others?
And I absolutely agree with the suggestion of Thierry and Vijay.
I have considered a kind of dynamically configured NEMO as you said.
In case that some mobile terminals dynamically assemble and make a 
NEMO, one or some of them can be a root MR/MRs in order to serve the 
Other MRs. Of course, using WPAN can be RO path in terms of QoS and 
a way for enhance the network survivability in terms of energy efficiency.
Although there are some commercialization issues, e.g. billing, 
Some of mobile service providers have interesting to this technology, as I
know.
Therefore, if it is in the scope of this charter, the followings are
considered for the requirements:
  - Root MR management for a dynamic NEMO 
  - Multi-homing configuration for network reliability and QoS

Won-Tae Kim
Embedded SW Research Division, ETRI
Tel : +82-042-860-6678

-----Original Message-----
From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:10 AM
To: Alexandru Petrescu
Cc: ml-nemo; Thierry Ernst
Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router


Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
> Thierry Ernst wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Chair's hat on:
>>
>> First, I would like to thank Vijay for bringing the Personal Router
>> usage up on this mailing list.  The reason why in the charter we only
>> mentioned about the aviation use case and the automotive use case is
>> simply that no one brought the PAN use case on the list.
>>
>> So,  the number of comments we got from folks in various kind of
>> industry tend to demonstrate the tremendous interest this topic could
>> have and also the impact on consumer electronic business (I suspect that
>> the aviation and the automotive use cases wouldn't be deployed as
>> quickly as PANs for medecine, emergency units, families, wheelchair,
>> sports, etc.).
>>
>> And, yes, the questions for which we need an answer is:
>> - what kind of RO must be supported,
>> - what kind of multihoming configuration,
>> - what kind of NEMO BU registration (explicit / implicit)
>> - what kind of Prefix Delegation
>> - what kind of AAA
>> - etc
> 
> Does PMR run IPv6 or IPv4.  Does it run Mobile IPv6 or Mobile IPv4. 
> These are simple questions but set the starting point.

ofcourse IPv6, since we are working on this in
the NEMO WG. IPv4 PMRs are already commercially
sold today with a NAT on them. I don't think we
need to do anything new there.

Vijay





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Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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Hi:

The root MR management (and I guess forming nested NEMO if I understand
you correctly) has already been discussed and was not accepted as a
charter item. It could lead quite far into MANET grounds and some people
asserted that it was not a NEMO issue.

Also, nesting is not specific to Personal MR. it is also present in L3
mesh networking, sensor networking, Car 2 Car, emergency response etc...

So I believe that nesting issues should be worked out separately from
the personal router use case.

If you are interested in following that discussion, there is already a
MANEMO list:
http://www.mobileip.jp/mailman/options/manemo


Pascal
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Won-Tae Kim [mailto:wtkim@etri.re.kr]
>Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:47 AM
>To: 'Vijay Devarapalli'; 'Alexandru Petrescu'
>Cc: 'ml-nemo'; 'Thierry Ernst'
>Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
>
>Hi, all.
>
>Vijay, you said PMR4v4 is already sold in commercial market.
>Did you mean IXI solution or others?
>And I absolutely agree with the suggestion of Thierry and Vijay.
>I have considered a kind of dynamically configured NEMO as you said.
>In case that some mobile terminals dynamically assemble and make a
>NEMO, one or some of them can be a root MR/MRs in order to serve the
>Other MRs. Of course, using WPAN can be RO path in terms of QoS and
>a way for enhance the network survivability in terms of energy
efficiency.
>Although there are some commercialization issues, e.g. billing,
>Some of mobile service providers have interesting to this technology,
as I
>know.
>Therefore, if it is in the scope of this charter, the followings are
>considered for the requirements:
>  - Root MR management for a dynamic NEMO
>  - Multi-homing configuration for network reliability and QoS
>
>Won-Tae Kim
>Embedded SW Research Division, ETRI
>Tel : +82-042-860-6678
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com]
>Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:10 AM
>To: Alexandru Petrescu
>Cc: ml-nemo; Thierry Ernst
>Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
>
>
>Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
>> Thierry Ernst wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> Chair's hat on:
>>>
>>> First, I would like to thank Vijay for bringing the Personal Router
>>> usage up on this mailing list.  The reason why in the charter we
only
>>> mentioned about the aviation use case and the automotive use case is
>>> simply that no one brought the PAN use case on the list.
>>>
>>> So,  the number of comments we got from folks in various kind of
>>> industry tend to demonstrate the tremendous interest this topic
could
>>> have and also the impact on consumer electronic business (I suspect
that
>>> the aviation and the automotive use cases wouldn't be deployed as
>>> quickly as PANs for medecine, emergency units, families, wheelchair,
>>> sports, etc.).
>>>
>>> And, yes, the questions for which we need an answer is:
>>> - what kind of RO must be supported,
>>> - what kind of multihoming configuration,
>>> - what kind of NEMO BU registration (explicit / implicit)
>>> - what kind of Prefix Delegation
>>> - what kind of AAA
>>> - etc
>>
>> Does PMR run IPv6 or IPv4.  Does it run Mobile IPv6 or Mobile IPv4.
>> These are simple questions but set the starting point.
>
>ofcourse IPv6, since we are working on this in
>the NEMO WG. IPv4 PMRs are already commercially
>sold today with a NAT on them. I don't think we
>need to do anything new there.
>
>Vijay




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Dear Thierry,

	I also support the addition of the PMR scenario to the charter.

	Kind Regards,

	Carlos J.

El vie, 24-11-2006 a las 23:30 +0100, Thierry Ernst escribi=F3:
> Dear all,
>=20
> Chair's hat on:
>=20
> First, I would like to thank Vijay for bringing the Personal Router
> usage up on this mailing list.  The reason why in the charter we only
> mentioned about the aviation use case and the automotive use case is
> simply that no one brought the PAN use case on the list.
>=20
> So,  the number of comments we got from folks in various kind of
> industry tend to demonstrate the tremendous interest this topic could
> have and also the impact on consumer electronic business (I suspect that
> the aviation and the automotive use cases wouldn't be deployed as
> quickly as PANs for medecine, emergency units, families, wheelchair,
> sports, etc.).
>=20
> And, yes, the questions for which we need an answer is:
> - what kind of RO must be supported,
> - what kind of multihoming configuration,
> - what kind of NEMO BU registration (explicit / implicit)
> - what kind of Prefix Delegation
> - what kind of AAA
> - etc
>=20
> My proposition would be to add it explictly in the charter together with
> the aviation industry and the automotive industry requirements.
>=20
> Thierry.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:37:01 +0100
> Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano <cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>=20
> >Hi Pascal:
> >
> >	I also agree that both options (proxy-RO and MR-to-MR) should be
> >carefully studied. However, my point was that I think that also in
> >operator-driven scenarios it should be studied how to apply MR-to-MR RO
> >schemes, in addition of the approach of using RO proxies deployed in the
> >Internet. The reasoning behind this is that the best path between two
> >NEMOs would always be the direct one between MRs. By using proxy RO
> >entities on the infrastructure, there will always be a trade-off between
> >number of proxy RO entities and the level of optimisation that is
> >required.
> >
> >	In summary, I'm not against of studying proxy-RO schemes, but I think
> >that we should not limit the applicability of MR-to-MR approaches to
> >emergency scenarios.
> >
> >	Kind Regards,
> >
> >	Carlos J.
> >
> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 16:20 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >escribi:
> >> Hi Carlos:
> >>=20
> >> Now I'm confused. I do agree that 2.5G/3G introduces latency. But the =
infrastructure we talk about is the Internet as opposed to an ISP xG networ=
k, so this was not my discussion.=20
> >>=20
> >> Infrastructure-based RO means that the RO end points (e.g. the proxies=
) are operated by ISPs, so some trust can be elaborated between proxies and=
 between proxies and HA. P2P expects nothing from the ISPs but fat pipes.
> >>=20
> >> I certainly agree that P2P RO has benefits, and we must study it for s=
ure, for the exact reasons you give. I would not want to pay when I use my =
phone as intercom at home. In an emergency situation P2P RO is all you migh=
t get, and you will certainly care less about billing, privacy and trust.=20
> >>=20
> >> OTOH, a solid world wide 4G solution requires the services I mentioned=
...
> >>=20
> >> Hopefully it is not one XOR the other, right?=20
> >>=20
> >> Pascal
> >>=20
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
> >> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:20 PM
> >> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.comb=
es@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next St=
ep?
> >> >
> >> >Hi Pascal,
> >> >
> >> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 11:55 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >escribi:
> >> >> Hi Carlos :)
> >> >>
> >> >> I do not believe that the performance is the issue:
> >> >>
> >> >> If proxy Home Agents are deployed the way SGSNs are today, they wil=
l be on the way and will not
> >> >cause a visible latency increase. But a proxy HA enables AAA, HA sele=
ction, billing, policy
> >> >enforcement, trust, and end-point privacy, which are strong ISP requi=
rements.
> >> >
> >> >	Even if Home Agents are deployed in that way, there will be a high
> >> >latency component introduced by the celular network itself (we have
> >> >performed many real experiments and that delay is always no less than
> >> >100-150ms one-way). As far as I know, operators are working to improv=
e
> >> >the performance (several years ago, the latency introduced by 2.5/3G
> >> >networks was even worse, about almost half a second).
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> OTOH, P2P might not require any of these features and thus, and a d=
irect MR-to-MR RO would seem to
> >> >be the right approach for such applications.
> >> >>
> >> >> Since both scenarii are relevant, I believe there is room for both =
direct and infrastructure-based
> >> >RO mechanisms, depending on whether you are considering an ISP servic=
e or a P2P.
> >> >
> >> >	I agree that both scenarios are relevant. But I also think that it i=
s
> >> >also interesting to look at the issues you mentioned regarding ISPs a=
nd
> >> >operators when a RO scheme that do not make use of the infrastructure=
 is
> >> >used, and seek for alternative solutions when a MR-to-MR approach is
> >> >used instead. Don't you agree that it would be better to always avoid
> >> >traversing the infrastructure if an alternative path which is shorter=
,
> >> >cheaper and provides a better performance is available?
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Seems fair?
> >> >>
> >> >> Pascal
> >> >>
> >> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >> >From: Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
> >> >> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:17 AM
> >> >> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.c=
ombes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next=
 Step?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Dear Pascal and all,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >	I also agree that personal router scenario is of interest. Howeve=
r I
> >> >> >think that for many of these scenarios, as other people has alread=
y
> >> >> >mentioned, in order to benefit from low delay and high bandwidth, =
it use
> >> >> >of celular network interfaces should be avoided. Therefore, I thin=
k that
> >> >> >for these scenarios, MR-to-MR RO optimisation schemes are the most
> >> >> >suitable ones. Doing RO in the infrastructure does not help so muc=
h in
> >> >> >reducing the delay if you already have ~150ms of one-way delay usi=
ng
> >> >> >UMTS (if two NEMOs are talking each other and both are connected u=
sing,
> >> >> >for example, UMTS, then you'll end up having 150x2=3D~300 ms of on=
e way
> >> >> >delay!).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >	Regards,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >	Carlos J.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 10:34 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >> >escribi:
> >> >> >> Hi Ryuji and Vijay.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I strongly agree that the personal router should be an item toge=
ther
> >> >> >> within the charter.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Talking in various forum, we found interest in a Personal Area N=
EMO
> >> >> >> that:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - Connects voice devices for VoIP (the main application)
> >> >> >> - Connects body sensors (medical devices, sportsmen, firemen, lo=
cation
> >> >> >> monitoring)
> >> >> >> - Connects Personal productivity devices (handheld)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The type of requirements we found in this space:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - for voice:
> >> >> >> a) Privacy: the device should not see the remote CoA
> >> >> >> b) Jitter/Latency: as usual... for instance the one way latency =
should
> >> >> >> stay below 150ms
> >> >> >> c) Access: Compatibility/awareness with emerging access such as =
mesh
> >> >> >> networks.
> >> >> >> d) Service: A stable anchor point for AAA, policy and SLA enforc=
ement.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - for sensors:
> >> >> >> e) Layer 7 triggers: access network awareness (emergency dial, b=
andwidth
> >> >> >> availability indication...)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - for personal productivity devices
> >> >> >> f) VPN access
> >> >> >> g) Community of interest (user centric overlays, route projectio=
n)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> In particular, to answer Ryuji's question about RO, we can note =
that
> >> >> >> PANEMO:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - demands a route optimization for NEMO for point b)
> >> >> >> - requires that the RO happens in the Infrastructure for point a=
)
> >> >> >> whereas g) is more P2P
> >> >> >> - pleads for regional proxy Home Agents for point d) (note, THIS=
 NOT
> >> >> >> PMIP!!)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Pascal
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >> >> >From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA [mailto:ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com]
> >> >> >> >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:51 AM
> >> >> >> >To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >> >> >> >Cc: nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >> >> >Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: N=
ext
> >> >> >> Step?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Hi Vijay
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a bit more.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >When you said route optimization, what level of optimization is
> >> >> >> >required?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
> >> >> >> >I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
> >> >> >> >So, your problem must be not here.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
> >> >> >> >However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be ski=
pped
> >> >> >> >(i.e. same HA for two MRs).
> >> >> >> >In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be locate=
d in
> >> >> >> >the cellular network.
> >> >> >> >The latency must be not so big (my guess).
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >I want to know where you want to optimize the path between two
> >> >> >> >personal MRs?!
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >regards,
> >> >> >> >ryuji
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >On 2006/11/16, at 0:29, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> Hi Jean-Michel,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> if there is more interest, I can write something
> >> >> >> >> up in the form of requirements. I was hoping more
> >> >> >> >> people would have gone to the mike and said
> >> >> >> >> something. the only person who went to the mike
> >> >> >> >> was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant" question. :)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Vijay
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> >> >>> From: Jean-Michel Combes [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com=
]
> >> >> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
> >> >> >> >>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >> >> >> >>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >> >> >>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Hi Vijay,
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo session=
 at San
> >> >> >> >>> Diego, I would like to know what is your goal regarding the =
Personal
> >> >> >> >>> Mobile Router. Do you expect to submit a draft in the Nemo W=
G on the
> >> >> >> >>> requirements for such a use case?
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Thanks for the information.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Best regards.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> JMC.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >--
> >> >> >ASCIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> >> >> > Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> >> >> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
> >> >--
> >> >ASCIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> >> > Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> >> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
> >--=20
> >ASCIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> > Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
> >
> >
>=20
--=20
=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
 Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
 GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974


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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 27 05:14:04 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:13:44 +0100
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From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
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Hi:

Your example is an extended Home Network case, and you have used a Home
Address from the prefix on the Home Link. In that case, the HA expects
that the MR is at Home when there is not binding, and it will deliver
over the Home Link the packets routed via MR's HoA A:B:C:0::i.

As Keiichi says there are 2 case.

Implicit:

HA knows A:B:C:i::/64 via A:B:C:0::i; if this is a static information
(static or automatic route) then the HA keeps that route regardless of
whether the MR is bound. The HA can share that information with other
GWs on the Home Link using an IGP over the Home Link, but to keep it
simple just assume that the HA is also the default GW in the Home Link.=20

So if MR1 is at Home, the HA can still reach any LFN behind it because
it has a static information for the route A:B:C:i::/64 via A:B:C:0::i
and it expects A:B:C:0::i over the Home Link. If another MR at home
needs to reach the LFN, packets will first reach the HA (default GW),
and the HA will issue an ICMP redirect. MRs could also expose their
prefix on the Home Link using RFC 4191 to save that flow.

So MRs do not need to participate to the IGP on the Home Link, and that
can be a benefit in a very large or very dynamic Home configuration


Explicit:

The route in the HA is associated to the binding. When the MR comes back
Home, the route is lost and the MR needs to participate to whatever IGP
is run at Home. The choice of the IGP is a configuration issue, it can
be any of the usual suspects (OSPF, RIP, EIGRP, ISIS, you name it). It
could even be a MANET :) The choice of the IGP and how you deploy it
will impact the capability for your Home Network to handle/survive a
more or less high rate of changes (routers in/out)=20

What NEMO adds: NEMO requires that the MR presents itself as a router
and participates to the IGP only if it is at Home. So either you have a
dedicated interface for going Home or you have some dynamics in the
behavior of the roaming interface(s) that can reach Home to switch
between at-Home and Roaming profiles.=20

It can be expected that routing within a nested NEMO (MANEMO) will
somewhat alleviate that restriction.

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: K.Kawaguchi [mailto:kawaguti@ysknet.co.jp]
>Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:49 AM
>To: keiichi@iijlab.net; nemo@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
>
>Hi,
>
>"Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>" wrote:
>> On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>>
>> >>> So, even in
>> >>> the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the mobile network
prefix
>> >>> by not using any routing protocol.
>> >>
>> >> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol.
>> >> Is there draft or RFC ?
>> >
>> > Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can install
>> > a routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack message.
>> > The home agent of the mobile node will know the mobile network
>> > prefix stored in a binding update message from the mobile node, it
>> > can also install a routing entry when it receives the binding
>> > update message.
>>
>> Some more minor additional notes...
>>
>> The above example is for the explicit mode.  And if we use implicit
>> mode, then these two entities already know what to do when
>> registration completes.  So either using a dynamic routing or not is
>> just a configuration issue for route management and it has nothing to
>> do with the network model.
>>
>> # if I'm not missing something.
>
>I still have my uncertain point.
>Please look at the following figures.
>
>                   |
>                   HA1
>                   |
>  -----+-----+-----+-----+----- Home Link: A:B:C:0::/64
>       |     |           |
>       |     |           | MR1-egress
>       H     R(MR)       MR1
>             |           | MR1-ingress (Home Address)
>                         |
>                        -+----- Mobile Network: A:B:C:i::/64
>
>
>I agree as you say, HA and MR can install own routing table entry by
>binding message. However, how do you tell it to other nodes on home
>network?
>How do you do when MR1 moves from the home link and the binding message
>is completed? Also, how do you do when MR1 returns to the home link?
>
>
>Best regards
>---
>Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI




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From: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@motorola.com>
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To: Vijay Devarapalli <vijay.devarapalli@AzaireNet.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
>> Thierry Ernst wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>> 
>>> Chair's hat on:
>>> 
>>> First, I would like to thank Vijay for bringing the Personal 
>>> Router usage up on this mailing list.  The reason why in the 
>>> charter we only mentioned about the aviation use case and the 
>>> automotive use case is simply that no one brought the PAN use 
>>> case on the list.
>>> 
>>> So,  the number of comments we got from folks in various kind 
>>> of industry tend to demonstrate the tremendous interest this 
>>> topic could have and also the impact on consumer electronic 
>>> business (I suspect that the aviation and the automotive use 
>>> cases wouldn't be deployed as quickly as PANs for medecine, 
>>> emergency units, families, wheelchair, sports, etc.).
>>> 
>>> And, yes, the questions for which we need an answer is: - what
>>>  kind of RO must be supported, - what kind of multihoming 
>>> configuration, - what kind of NEMO BU registration (explicit /
>>>  implicit) - what kind of Prefix Delegation - what kind of AAA
>>> - etc
>> 
>> Does PMR run IPv6 or IPv4.  Does it run Mobile IPv6 or Mobile 
>> IPv4. These are simple questions but set the starting point.
> 
> ofcourse IPv6, since we are working on this in the NEMO WG. IPv4 
> PMRs are already commercially sold today with a NAT on them. I 
> don't think we need to do anything new there.

Maybe document them?

Otherwise there's this IPv4-IPv6 co-existence
question, which makes one think the starting point would be MIPv6 or
DS-MIPv6.  For example, one would prefer two LFNs of different MRs to
speak IPv6 but the MRs constrained to connect to an IPv4-only access.

I can easily translated this requirements, must support either
v4 or v6, both at same time, etc.

Alex




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 27 07:05:58 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
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Hi,

""Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>" wrote:
> Hi:
> 
> Your example is an extended Home Network case, and you have used a Home
> Address from the prefix on the Home Link. In that case, the HA expects
> that the MR is at Home when there is not binding, and it will deliver
> over the Home Link the packets routed via MR's HoA A:B:C:0::i.

My example is an extended Home Network case. But, Home Address from
Mobile Network Prefix (5.3 Home Address from MNP in draft-ietf-nemo-home
-network-models-06).


> 
> As Keiichi says there are 2 case.
> 
> Implicit:
> 
> HA knows A:B:C:i::/64 via A:B:C:0::i; if this is a static information
> (static or automatic route) then the HA keeps that route regardless of
> whether the MR is bound. The HA can share that information with other
> GWs on the Home Link using an IGP over the Home Link, but to keep it
> simple just assume that the HA is also the default GW in the Home Link. 
> 
> So if MR1 is at Home, the HA can still reach any LFN behind it because
> it has a static information for the route A:B:C:i::/64 via A:B:C:0::i
> and it expects A:B:C:0::i over the Home Link. If another MR at home
> needs to reach the LFN, packets will first reach the HA (default GW),
> and the HA will issue an ICMP redirect. MRs could also expose their
> prefix on the Home Link using RFC 4191 to save that flow.
> 
> So MRs do not need to participate to the IGP on the Home Link, and that
> can be a benefit in a very large or very dynamic Home configuration

I understand this case (thanks you).

On the other hand, in the case Home Address from MNP.
Does MR need to join in IGP after configuring the address at the home?


> 
> 
> Explicit:
> 
> The route in the HA is associated to the binding. When the MR comes back
> Home, the route is lost and the MR needs to participate to whatever IGP
> is run at Home. The choice of the IGP is a configuration issue, it can
> be any of the usual suspects (OSPF, RIP, EIGRP, ISIS, you name it). It
> could even be a MANET :) The choice of the IGP and how you deploy it
> will impact the capability for your Home Network to handle/survive a
> more or less high rate of changes (routers in/out) 
> 
> What NEMO adds: NEMO requires that the MR presents itself as a router
> and participates to the IGP only if it is at Home. So either you have a
> dedicated interface for going Home or you have some dynamics in the
> behavior of the roaming interface(s) that can reach Home to switch
> between at-Home and Roaming profiles. 

Ok, I understand.
This is the same also in the case from MNP, isn't it?


Best regards
---
Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI



> 
> It can be expected that routing within a nested NEMO (MANEMO) will
> somewhat alleviate that restriction.
> 
> Pascal
> 
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: K.Kawaguchi [mailto:kawaguti@ysknet.co.jp]
> >Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:49 AM
> >To: keiichi@iijlab.net; nemo@ietf.org
> >Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >"Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>" wrote:
> >> On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
> >>
> >> >>> So, even in
> >> >>> the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the mobile network
> prefix
> >> >>> by not using any routing protocol.
> >> >>
> >> >> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol.
> >> >> Is there draft or RFC ?
> >> >
> >> > Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can install
> >> > a routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack message.
> >> > The home agent of the mobile node will know the mobile network
> >> > prefix stored in a binding update message from the mobile node, it
> >> > can also install a routing entry when it receives the binding
> >> > update message.
> >>
> >> Some more minor additional notes...
> >>
> >> The above example is for the explicit mode.  And if we use implicit
> >> mode, then these two entities already know what to do when
> >> registration completes.  So either using a dynamic routing or not is
> >> just a configuration issue for route management and it has nothing to
> >> do with the network model.
> >>
> >> # if I'm not missing something.
> >
> >I still have my uncertain point.
> >Please look at the following figures.
> >
> >                   |
> >                   HA1
> >                   |
> >  -----+-----+-----+-----+----- Home Link: A:B:C:0::/64
> >       |     |           |
> >       |     |           | MR1-egress
> >       H     R(MR)       MR1
> >             |           | MR1-ingress (Home Address)
> >                         |
> >                        -+----- Mobile Network: A:B:C:i::/64
> >
> >
> >I agree as you say, HA and MR can install own routing table entry by
> >binding message. However, how do you tell it to other nodes on home
> >network?
> >How do you do when MR1 moves from the home link and the binding message
> >is completed? Also, how do you do when MR1 returns to the home link?
> >
> >
> >Best regards
> >---
> >Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI
> 
> 





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>> Your example is an extended Home Network case, and you have used a
Home
>> Address from the prefix on the Home Link. In that case, the HA
expects
>> that the MR is at Home when there is not binding, and it will deliver
>> over the Home Link the packets routed via MR's HoA A:B:C:0::i.
>
>My example is an extended Home Network case. But, Home Address from
>Mobile Network Prefix (5.3 Home Address from MNP in
draft-ietf-nemo-home
>-network-models-06).

[Pascal] OK. That was not obvious from the picture since you did not
provide the HoA :)

As a reminder, we do not recommend the configuration that you are
proposing.
"
   There are a number of issues with returning home when a mobile router
   configures its home address from the MNP as described in Section 5.3.
   Therefore we do not recommend this mechanism if the mobile routers
   attach to the home network.
"

If you still want to, you might for instance configure statically a
connected route to the Home aggregation via the Home Link. At this point
you are more or less back to the aggregated mode. But then again, why
would you do that? Extended mode is meant to take the Home address from
the /64 on the Home Link, thus my assumption on A:B:C:0::i.

>
>
>>
>> As Keiichi says there are 2 case.
>>
>> Implicit:
>>
>> HA knows A:B:C:i::/64 via A:B:C:0::i; if this is a static information
>> (static or automatic route) then the HA keeps that route regardless
of
>> whether the MR is bound. The HA can share that information with other
>> GWs on the Home Link using an IGP over the Home Link, but to keep it
>> simple just assume that the HA is also the default GW in the Home
Link.
>>
>> So if MR1 is at Home, the HA can still reach any LFN behind it
because
>> it has a static information for the route A:B:C:i::/64 via A:B:C:0::i
>> and it expects A:B:C:0::i over the Home Link. If another MR at home
>> needs to reach the LFN, packets will first reach the HA (default GW),
>> and the HA will issue an ICMP redirect. MRs could also expose their
>> prefix on the Home Link using RFC 4191 to save that flow.
>>
>> So MRs do not need to participate to the IGP on the Home Link, and
that
>> can be a benefit in a very large or very dynamic Home configuration
>
>I understand this case (thanks you).
>
>On the other hand, in the case Home Address from MNP.
>Does MR need to join in IGP after configuring the address at the home?

[Pascal] As I said, you can use a static route to the Home aggregation
over the Home interface. One more static route... Obviously you could
mix and match static and dynamic routing, but if you are already using
static routes, I'd go for one more static. But then again, I would not
use HoA from MNP in extended mode if MRs need to go back home.

>
>>
>>
>> Explicit:
>>
>> The route in the HA is associated to the binding. When the MR comes
back
>> Home, the route is lost and the MR needs to participate to whatever
IGP
>> is run at Home. The choice of the IGP is a configuration issue, it
can
>> be any of the usual suspects (OSPF, RIP, EIGRP, ISIS, you name it).
It
>> could even be a MANET :) The choice of the IGP and how you deploy it
>> will impact the capability for your Home Network to handle/survive a
>> more or less high rate of changes (routers in/out)
>>
>> What NEMO adds: NEMO requires that the MR presents itself as a router
>> and participates to the IGP only if it is at Home. So either you have
a
>> dedicated interface for going Home or you have some dynamics in the
>> behavior of the roaming interface(s) that can reach Home to switch
>> between at-Home and Roaming profiles.
>
>Ok, I understand.
>This is the same also in the case from MNP, isn't it?

[Pascal] Yes... if I understand you well. More words to make sure:

The MR at Home autoconfigures a Link Local Address for the Home Link,
and exposes the MNP route with the IGP using that LLA. This happens
regardless of whether the HoA was derived from the prefix on the Home
Link or from the MNP. In all cases, the HA obtains a route towards the
MNP via the MR LLA.

Makes sense?

Pascal

>
>Best regards
>---
>Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI
>
>
>
>>
>> It can be expected that routing within a nested NEMO (MANEMO) will
>> somewhat alleviate that restriction.
>>
>> Pascal
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: K.Kawaguchi [mailto:kawaguti@ysknet.co.jp]
>> >Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:49 AM
>> >To: keiichi@iijlab.net; nemo@ietf.org
>> >Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
>> >
>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >"Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>" wrote:
>> >> On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >>> So, even in
>> >> >>> the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the mobile network
>> prefix
>> >> >>> by not using any routing protocol.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol.
>> >> >> Is there draft or RFC ?
>> >> >
>> >> > Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can
install
>> >> > a routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack message.
>> >> > The home agent of the mobile node will know the mobile network
>> >> > prefix stored in a binding update message from the mobile node,
it
>> >> > can also install a routing entry when it receives the binding
>> >> > update message.
>> >>
>> >> Some more minor additional notes...
>> >>
>> >> The above example is for the explicit mode.  And if we use
implicit
>> >> mode, then these two entities already know what to do when
>> >> registration completes.  So either using a dynamic routing or not
is
>> >> just a configuration issue for route management and it has nothing
to
>> >> do with the network model.
>> >>
>> >> # if I'm not missing something.
>> >
>> >I still have my uncertain point.
>> >Please look at the following figures.
>> >
>> >                   |
>> >                   HA1
>> >                   |
>> >  -----+-----+-----+-----+----- Home Link: A:B:C:0::/64
>> >       |     |           |
>> >       |     |           | MR1-egress
>> >       H     R(MR)       MR1
>> >             |           | MR1-ingress (Home Address)
>> >                         |
>> >                        -+----- Mobile Network: A:B:C:i::/64
>> >
>> >
>> >I agree as you say, HA and MR can install own routing table entry by
>> >binding message. However, how do you tell it to other nodes on home
>> >network?
>> >How do you do when MR1 moves from the home link and the binding
message
>> >is completed? Also, how do you do when MR1 returns to the home link?
>> >
>> >
>> >Best regards
>> >---
>> >Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI
>>
>>




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Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
> On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
> 
>>>> So, even in the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the 
>>>> mobile network prefix by not using any routing protocol.
>>> 
>>> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol. Is there
>>>  draft or RFC ?
>> 
>> Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can 
>> install a routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack 
>> message.  The home agent of the mobile node will know the mobile 
>> network prefix stored in a binding update message from the mobile
>>  node, it can also install a routing entry when it receives the 
>> binding update message.
> 
> Some more minor additional notes...
> 
> The above example is for the explicit mode.  And if we use implicit
>  mode, then these two entities already know what to do when 
> registration completes.  So either using a dynamic routing or not 
> is just a configuration issue for route management and it has 
> nothing to do with the network model.

I think it is not right for HA to add a routing table entry upon
reception of MNP in the HA.  IT should add it in the binding cache,
not in routing table.

The routing table is a data structure touched by other independent
software (ifconfig add, route add, routing daemon read).

If MIP6-nemo software adds a routing table entry usually it has no way
to trigger the routing daemon that reads that routing table.  The
routing daemon reads the routing table only once (when it starts up),
creating other internal routing tables.  If mip6-demo adds an entry in
the kernel routing table then that will not be seen by the routing
daemon.  Which is bad.

That's why I think the routing table entries between MR and HA must be
there prior to starting up the mip6-nemo software.  This is normal in
a way: if the MR is at home, we want the HA to still route packets
towards LFN, although no BU is sent.

Alex

> 
> # if I'm not missing something.
> 
> --- Keiichi SHIMA IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net> WIDE
>  Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





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Thread-Topic: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
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Hi Alex:

I assure you that it is possible to have a NEMO process inject routes in
an exact same fashion as an OSPF process and benefit from the same
triggers and redistribution mechanisms if applicable. This is what my
implementation does in IOS... The HA is definitely a router :)

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Alexandru Petrescu [mailto:alexandru.petrescu@motorola.com]
>Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 1:32 PM
>To: Keiichi SHIMA
>Cc: nemo@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
>
>Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>> On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>>
>>>>> So, even in the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the
>>>>> mobile network prefix by not using any routing protocol.
>>>>
>>>> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol. Is there
>>>>  draft or RFC ?
>>>
>>> Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can
>>> install a routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack
>>> message.  The home agent of the mobile node will know the mobile
>>> network prefix stored in a binding update message from the mobile
>>>  node, it can also install a routing entry when it receives the
>>> binding update message.
>>
>> Some more minor additional notes...
>>
>> The above example is for the explicit mode.  And if we use implicit
>>  mode, then these two entities already know what to do when
>> registration completes.  So either using a dynamic routing or not
>> is just a configuration issue for route management and it has
>> nothing to do with the network model.
>
>I think it is not right for HA to add a routing table entry upon
>reception of MNP in the HA.  IT should add it in the binding cache,
>not in routing table.
>
>The routing table is a data structure touched by other independent
>software (ifconfig add, route add, routing daemon read).
>
>If MIP6-nemo software adds a routing table entry usually it has no way
>to trigger the routing daemon that reads that routing table.  The
>routing daemon reads the routing table only once (when it starts up),
>creating other internal routing tables.  If mip6-demo adds an entry in
>the kernel routing table then that will not be seen by the routing
>daemon.  Which is bad.
>
>That's why I think the routing table entries between MR and HA must be
>there prior to starting up the mip6-nemo software.  This is normal in
>a way: if the MR is at home, we want the HA to still route packets
>towards LFN, although no BU is sent.
>
>Alex
>
>>
>> # if I'm not missing something.
>>
>> --- Keiichi SHIMA IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net> WIDE
>>  Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 27 08:03:29 2006
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Hi, sorry for interfering...

K.Kawaguchi wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> "Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>" wrote:
>> On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>>
>>>>> So, even in
>>>>> the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the mobile network prefix
>>>>> by not using any routing protocol.
>>>> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol.
>>>> Is there draft or RFC ?
>>> Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can install  
>>> a routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack message.   
>>> The home agent of the mobile node will know the mobile network  
>>> prefix stored in a binding update message from the mobile node, it  
>>> can also install a routing entry when it receives the binding  
>>> update message.
>> Some more minor additional notes...
>>
>> The above example is for the explicit mode.  And if we use implicit  
>> mode, then these two entities already know what to do when  
>> registration completes.  So either using a dynamic routing or not is  
>> just a configuration issue for route management and it has nothing to  
>> do with the network model.
>>
>> # if I'm not missing something.
> 
> I still have my uncertain point.
> Please look at the following figures.
> 
>                    |
>                    HA1
>                    |
>   -----+-----+-----+-----+----- Home Link: A:B:C:0::/64
>        |     |           |
>        |     |           | MR1-egress
>        H     R(MR)       MR1
>              |           | MR1-ingress (Home Address)
>                          |
>                         -+----- Mobile Network: A:B:C:i::/64
> 
> 
> I agree as you say, HA and MR can install own routing table entry by
> binding message.

I don't think HA and MR should install routing table entries upon 
reception of BU.  These routes should be there prior to starting the 
mip6-nemo software.

> However, how do you tell it to other nodes on home
> network?

That is a good question.  If the route in HA is added only upon 
reception of BU then it means if MR1 is at home (if it rarely leaves) 
then there's no route in HA1.

R and H should have either a route pointing to MNP through MR1-egress, 
or simply a default route through HA1.  In this latter case (no MNP 
route on H and R), if MR1 is at home, HA1 should send an ICMP redirect 
to H and R indicating a shorter route to MNP through MR1-egress.

> How do you do when MR1 moves from the home link and the binding message
> is completed? Also, how do you do when MR1 returns to the home link?

Yes, good questions.

Alex





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 27 08:11:25 2006
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Hi Pascal,

Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> Hi:
> 
> The root MR management (and I guess forming nested NEMO if I
> understand you correctly) has already been discussed and was not
> accepted as a charter item. It could lead quite far into MANET
> grounds and some people asserted that it was not a NEMO issue.
> 
> Also, nesting is not specific to Personal MR. it is also present in
> L3 mesh networking, sensor networking, Car 2 Car, emergency
> response etc...

I think "nesting" is a term proper to NEMO.  A mobile router attaching
to another MR's link is nesting, provided that the first is not at
home under the second, effectively making it a VMR.

I think that's all about "nesting".

I think a moving network that has several FRs (fixed routers) into it
don't qualify as nesting.  Even if those are mobile routers that
attach to a root-MR, if they are a thome under that MR then they're
not "nesting".

In mesh networking (car2car, first response), there's no encapsulation
of packets, because no MIP6 tunnelling, hence no "nesting".

I think "nesting" comes from the packets that are encapsulated.

But I agree that "nesting" is not specific to PErsonal MR.

Alex

> So I believe that nesting issues should be worked out separately
> from the personal router use case.
> 
> If you are interested in following that discussion, there is
> already a MANEMO list: 
> http://www.mobileip.jp/mailman/options/manemo
> 
> 
> Pascal
>> -----Original Message----- From: Won-Tae Kim
>> [mailto:wtkim@etri.re.kr] Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:47 AM
>>  To: 'Vijay Devarapalli'; 'Alexandru Petrescu' Cc: 'ml-nemo';
>> 'Thierry Ernst' Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal
>> Mobile Router
>> 
>> Hi, all.
>> 
>> Vijay, you said PMR4v4 is already sold in commercial market. Did
>> you mean IXI solution or others? And I absolutely agree with the
>> suggestion of Thierry and Vijay. I have considered a kind of
>> dynamically configured NEMO as you said. In case that some mobile
>> terminals dynamically assemble and make a NEMO, one or some of
>> them can be a root MR/MRs in order to serve the Other MRs. Of
>> course, using WPAN can be RO path in terms of QoS and a way for
>> enhance the network survivability in terms of energy
> efficiency.
>> Although there are some commercialization issues, e.g. billing, 
>> Some of mobile service providers have interesting to this
>> technology,
> as I
>> know. Therefore, if it is in the scope of this charter, the
>> followings are considered for the requirements: - Root MR
>> management for a dynamic NEMO - Multi-homing configuration for
>> network reliability and QoS
>> 
>> Won-Tae Kim Embedded SW Research Division, ETRI Tel :
>> +82-042-860-6678
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Vijay Devarapalli
>> [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com] Sent: Monday, November
>> 27, 2006 3:10 AM To: Alexandru Petrescu Cc: ml-nemo; Thierry
>> Ernst Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile
>> Router
>> 
>> 
>> Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
>>> Thierry Ernst wrote:
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> 
>>>> Chair's hat on:
>>>> 
>>>> First, I would like to thank Vijay for bringing the Personal
>>>> Router usage up on this mailing list.  The reason why in the
>>>> charter we
> only
>>>> mentioned about the aviation use case and the automotive use
>>>> case is simply that no one brought the PAN use case on the
>>>> list.
>>>> 
>>>> So,  the number of comments we got from folks in various kind
>>>> of industry tend to demonstrate the tremendous interest this
>>>> topic
> could
>>>> have and also the impact on consumer electronic business (I
>>>> suspect
> that
>>>> the aviation and the automotive use cases wouldn't be
>>>> deployed as quickly as PANs for medecine, emergency units,
>>>> families, wheelchair, sports, etc.).
>>>> 
>>>> And, yes, the questions for which we need an answer is: -
>>>> what kind of RO must be supported, - what kind of multihoming
>>>> configuration, - what kind of NEMO BU registration (explicit
>>>> / implicit) - what kind of Prefix Delegation - what kind of
>>>> AAA - etc
>>> Does PMR run IPv6 or IPv4.  Does it run Mobile IPv6 or Mobile
>>> IPv4. These are simple questions but set the starting point.
>> ofcourse IPv6, since we are working on this in the NEMO WG. IPv4
>> PMRs are already commercially sold today with a NAT on them. I
>> don't think we need to do anything new there.
>> 
>> Vijay
> 
> 





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Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> Hi Alex:
> 
> I assure you that it is possible to have a NEMO process inject
> routes in an exact same fashion as an OSPF process and benefit from
> the same triggers and redistribution mechanisms if applicable. This
> is what my implementation does in IOS... The HA is definitely a
> router :)

I think implementations can do about anything.

After reading your other emails, I think we still seem to agree that
we want the MR-at-home's LFNs to be reachable from a R on the home
link, without a routing table entry in HA.  It is sufficient for R to
have a route towards MNP.  HA's routing table is not necessary.

Alex

> 
> Pascal
> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Alexandru Petrescu
>> [mailto:alexandru.petrescu@motorola.com] Sent: Monday, November
>> 27, 2006 1:32 PM To: Keiichi SHIMA Cc: nemo@ietf.org Subject: Re:
>> [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
>> 
>> Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>>> On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>> So, even in the case 2, we can put a routing entry for
>>>>>> the mobile network prefix by not using any routing
>>>>>> protocol.
>>>>> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol. Is
>>>>> there draft or RFC ?
>>>> Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can 
>>>> install a routing entry for it after it receives a binding
>>>> ack message.  The home agent of the mobile node will know the
>>>> mobile network prefix stored in a binding update message from
>>>> the mobile node, it can also install a routing entry when it
>>>> receives the binding update message.
>>> Some more minor additional notes...
>>> 
>>> The above example is for the explicit mode.  And if we use
>>> implicit mode, then these two entities already know what to do
>>> when registration completes.  So either using a dynamic routing
>>> or not is just a configuration issue for route management and
>>> it has nothing to do with the network model.
>> I think it is not right for HA to add a routing table entry upon 
>> reception of MNP in the HA.  IT should add it in the binding
>> cache, not in routing table.
>> 
>> The routing table is a data structure touched by other
>> independent software (ifconfig add, route add, routing daemon
>> read).
>> 
>> If MIP6-nemo software adds a routing table entry usually it has
>> no way to trigger the routing daemon that reads that routing
>> table.  The routing daemon reads the routing table only once
>> (when it starts up), creating other internal routing tables.  If
>> mip6-demo adds an entry in the kernel routing table then that
>> will not be seen by the routing daemon.  Which is bad.
>> 
>> That's why I think the routing table entries between MR and HA
>> must be there prior to starting up the mip6-nemo software.  This
>> is normal in a way: if the MR is at home, we want the HA to still
>> route packets towards LFN, although no BU is sent.
>> 
>> Alex
>> 
>>> # if I'm not missing something.
>>> 
>>> --- Keiichi SHIMA IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net>
>>> WIDE Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 





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------------4FEF6E0B51CB--




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 27 21:18:04 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
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Hi,

""Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>" wrote:
> >> Your example is an extended Home Network case, and you have used a
> Home
> >> Address from the prefix on the Home Link. In that case, the HA
> expects
> >> that the MR is at Home when there is not binding, and it will deliver
> >> over the Home Link the packets routed via MR's HoA A:B:C:0::i.
> >
> >My example is an extended Home Network case. But, Home Address from
> >Mobile Network Prefix (5.3 Home Address from MNP in
> draft-ietf-nemo-home
> >-network-models-06).
> 
> [Pascal] OK. That was not obvious from the picture since you did not
> provide the HoA :)
> 
> As a reminder, we do not recommend the configuration that you are
> proposing.
> "
>    There are a number of issues with returning home when a mobile router
>    configures its home address from the MNP as described in Section 5.3.
>    Therefore we do not recommend this mechanism if the mobile routers
>    attach to the home network.
> "
> 
> If you still want to, you might for instance configure statically a
> connected route to the Home aggregation via the Home Link. At this point
> you are more or less back to the aggregated mode. But then again, why
> would you do that? Extended mode is meant to take the Home address from
> the /64 on the Home Link, thus my assumption on A:B:C:0::i.

OK. I find this method (Extend mode and Home address from MNP) not having
any advantage.


> 
> >
> >
> >>
> >> As Keiichi says there are 2 case.
> >>
> >> Implicit:
> >>
> >> HA knows A:B:C:i::/64 via A:B:C:0::i; if this is a static information
> >> (static or automatic route) then the HA keeps that route regardless
> of
> >> whether the MR is bound. The HA can share that information with other
> >> GWs on the Home Link using an IGP over the Home Link, but to keep it
> >> simple just assume that the HA is also the default GW in the Home
> Link.
> >>
> >> So if MR1 is at Home, the HA can still reach any LFN behind it
> because
> >> it has a static information for the route A:B:C:i::/64 via A:B:C:0::i
> >> and it expects A:B:C:0::i over the Home Link. If another MR at home
> >> needs to reach the LFN, packets will first reach the HA (default GW),
> >> and the HA will issue an ICMP redirect. MRs could also expose their
> >> prefix on the Home Link using RFC 4191 to save that flow.
> >>
> >> So MRs do not need to participate to the IGP on the Home Link, and
> that
> >> can be a benefit in a very large or very dynamic Home configuration
> >
> >I understand this case (thanks you).
> >
> >On the other hand, in the case Home Address from MNP.
> >Does MR need to join in IGP after configuring the address at the home?
> 
> [Pascal] As I said, you can use a static route to the Home aggregation
> over the Home interface. One more static route... Obviously you could
> mix and match static and dynamic routing, but if you are already using
> static routes, I'd go for one more static. But then again, I would not
> use HoA from MNP in extended mode if MRs need to go back home.

I understand.


> 
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Explicit:
> >>
> >> The route in the HA is associated to the binding. When the MR comes
> back
> >> Home, the route is lost and the MR needs to participate to whatever
> IGP
> >> is run at Home. The choice of the IGP is a configuration issue, it
> can
> >> be any of the usual suspects (OSPF, RIP, EIGRP, ISIS, you name it).
> It
> >> could even be a MANET :) The choice of the IGP and how you deploy it
> >> will impact the capability for your Home Network to handle/survive a
> >> more or less high rate of changes (routers in/out)
> >>
> >> What NEMO adds: NEMO requires that the MR presents itself as a router
> >> and participates to the IGP only if it is at Home. So either you have
> a
> >> dedicated interface for going Home or you have some dynamics in the
> >> behavior of the roaming interface(s) that can reach Home to switch
> >> between at-Home and Roaming profiles.
> >
> >Ok, I understand.
> >This is the same also in the case from MNP, isn't it?
> 
> [Pascal] Yes... if I understand you well. More words to make sure:
> 
> The MR at Home autoconfigures a Link Local Address for the Home Link,
> and exposes the MNP route with the IGP using that LLA. This happens
> regardless of whether the HoA was derived from the prefix on the Home
> Link or from the MNP. In all cases, the HA obtains a route towards the
> MNP via the MR LLA.
> 
> Makes sense?

OK, I understand.
Hearty thanks for your e-mails.


Best regards
---
Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI


> 
> Pascal
> 
> >
> >Best regards
> >---
> >Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> It can be expected that routing within a nested NEMO (MANEMO) will
> >> somewhat alleviate that restriction.
> >>
> >> Pascal
> >>
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: K.Kawaguchi [mailto:kawaguti@ysknet.co.jp]
> >> >Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:49 AM
> >> >To: keiichi@iijlab.net; nemo@ietf.org
> >> >Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
> >> >
> >> >Hi,
> >> >
> >> >"Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>" wrote:
> >> >> On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >>> So, even in
> >> >> >>> the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the mobile network
> >> prefix
> >> >> >>> by not using any routing protocol.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol.
> >> >> >> Is there draft or RFC ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can
> install
> >> >> > a routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack message.
> >> >> > The home agent of the mobile node will know the mobile network
> >> >> > prefix stored in a binding update message from the mobile node,
> it
> >> >> > can also install a routing entry when it receives the binding
> >> >> > update message.
> >> >>
> >> >> Some more minor additional notes...
> >> >>
> >> >> The above example is for the explicit mode.  And if we use
> implicit
> >> >> mode, then these two entities already know what to do when
> >> >> registration completes.  So either using a dynamic routing or not
> is
> >> >> just a configuration issue for route management and it has nothing
> to
> >> >> do with the network model.
> >> >>
> >> >> # if I'm not missing something.
> >> >
> >> >I still have my uncertain point.
> >> >Please look at the following figures.
> >> >
> >> >                   |
> >> >                   HA1
> >> >                   |
> >> >  -----+-----+-----+-----+----- Home Link: A:B:C:0::/64
> >> >       |     |           |
> >> >       |     |           | MR1-egress
> >> >       H     R(MR)       MR1
> >> >             |           | MR1-ingress (Home Address)
> >> >                         |
> >> >                        -+----- Mobile Network: A:B:C:i::/64
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >I agree as you say, HA and MR can install own routing table entry by
> >> >binding message. However, how do you tell it to other nodes on home
> >> >network?
> >> >How do you do when MR1 moves from the home link and the binding
> message
> >> >is completed? Also, how do you do when MR1 returns to the home link?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Best regards
> >> >---
> >> >Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI
> >>
> >>
> 
> 





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 28 05:21:45 2006
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From: Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:21:01 +0900
To: "K.Kawaguchi" <kawaguti@ysknet.co.jp>
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Hello,

On 2006/11/27, at 10:48, K.Kawaguchi wrote:

>
>                    |
>                    HA1
>                    |
>   -----+-----+-----+-----+----- Home Link: A:B:C:0::/64
>        |     |           |
>        |     |           | MR1-egress
>        H     R(MR)       MR1
>              |           | MR1-ingress (Home Address)
>                          |
>                         -+----- Mobile Network: A:B:C:i::/64
>
>
> I agree as you say, HA and MR can install own routing table entry by
> binding message. However, how do you tell it to other nodes on home
> network?

The routing policy to the MNP from other nodes than HA or MR are, I  
think, out of scope of the network mobility management.

They may use static routing.  E.g. R in the above example can install  
a static route entry "A:B:C:i::/64 => HA1".  Otherwise, HA1 and R can  
run a dynamic routing protocol that is the same as in the no-mobility  
case.

> How do you do when MR1 moves from the home link and the binding  
> message
> is completed? Also, how do you do when MR1 returns to the home link?

No difference.  R can send packets that destination address is MNP to  
HA1.  HA1 will tunnel the traffic if MR1 is foreign, or will redirect  
it to MR1 if it is at home.

---
Keiichi SHIMA
IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net>
WIDE Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>







From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 28 05:48:57 2006
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From: Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:48:50 +0900
To: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@motorola.com>
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Hi,

On 2006/11/27, at 21:31, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:

> Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>> On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>>>>> So, even in the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the  
>>>>> mobile network prefix by not using any routing protocol.
>>>> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol. Is there
>>>>  draft or RFC ?
>>> Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can  
>>> install a routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack  
>>> message.  The home agent of the mobile node will know the mobile  
>>> network prefix stored in a binding update message from the mobile
>>>  node, it can also install a routing entry when it receives the  
>>> binding update message.
>> Some more minor additional notes...
>> The above example is for the explicit mode.  And if we use implicit
>>  mode, then these two entities already know what to do when  
>> registration completes.  So either using a dynamic routing or not  
>> is just a configuration issue for route management and it has  
>> nothing to do with the network model.
>
> I think it is not right for HA to add a routing table entry upon
> reception of MNP in the HA.  IT should add it in the binding cache,
> not in routing table.

I don't understand that.  MIP6 or NEMO is a kind of dynamic tunnel  
setup and route injection mechanism, isn't it?  So manipulating route  
entries by MIP6/NEMO program seems natural to me.

> The routing table is a data structure touched by other independent
> software (ifconfig add, route add, routing daemon read).
>
> If MIP6-nemo software adds a routing table entry usually it has no way
> to trigger the routing daemon that reads that routing table.  The
> routing daemon reads the routing table only once (when it starts up),
> creating other internal routing tables.  If mip6-demo adds an entry in
> the kernel routing table then that will not be seen by the routing
> daemon.  Which is bad.

Ah, it may depend on the routing daemon.  Some routing daemons can  
redistribute routing entries added after it is launched.  If we are  
using such daemon, the route entries will be propagated appropriately.

In fact, we have confirmed our NEMO daemon (SHISA) can run with  
OSPFv3 in some of our previous experiments.  The route entry to a MNP  
added by SHISA was distributed by zebra ospf6d in the experiment.

---
Keiichi SHIMA
IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net>
WIDE Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>







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Hi,

"Keiichi SHIMA <keiichi@iijlab.net>" wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On 2006/11/27, at 10:48, K.Kawaguchi wrote:
> 
> >
> >                    |
> >                    HA1
> >                    |
> >   -----+-----+-----+-----+----- Home Link: A:B:C:0::/64
> >        |     |           |
> >        |     |           | MR1-egress
> >        H     R(MR)       MR1
> >              |           | MR1-ingress (Home Address)
> >                          |
> >                         -+----- Mobile Network: A:B:C:i::/64
> >
> >
> > I agree as you say, HA and MR can install own routing table entry by
> > binding message. However, how do you tell it to other nodes on home
> > network?
> 
> The routing policy to the MNP from other nodes than HA or MR are, I  
> think, out of scope of the network mobility management.
> 
> They may use static routing.  E.g. R in the above example can install  
> a static route entry "A:B:C:i::/64 => HA1".  Otherwise, HA1 and R can  
> run a dynamic routing protocol that is the same as in the no-mobility  
> case.
> 
> > How do you do when MR1 moves from the home link and the binding  
> > message
> > is completed? Also, how do you do when MR1 returns to the home link?
> 
> No difference.  R can send packets that destination address is MNP to  
> HA1.  HA1 will tunnel the traffic if MR1 is foreign, or will redirect  
> it to MR1 if it is at home.

I see.
Also, there is the following route settings along RFC4191.

      ::/0 -> router HA1 with a Medium preference
      A:B:C:i::/64 -> router MR1 with a High preference


Best regards
---
Kiyoaki KAWAGUCHI


> 
> ---
> Keiichi SHIMA
> IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net>
> WIDE Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





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Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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Hello,

I think it is a topic we have to investigate in Nemo working group since =
it can provide some opportunities for vendors and operators. With the =
deployment of portable devices and the rise in available bandwidth on =
air interfaces there is no doubt that such "personal mobile router" =
concept is a good one for next IP services and future terminal =
capabilities.=20
I support this proposition to add this item in Nemo charter.

David Binet  =20

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Thierry Ernst [mailto:thierry.ernst@inria.fr]=20
> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 24 novembre 2006 23:31
> =C0 : ml-nemo
> Objet : [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
>=20
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> Chair's hat on:
>=20
> First, I would like to thank Vijay for bringing the Personal=20
> Router usage up on this mailing list.  The reason why in the=20
> charter we only mentioned about the aviation use case and the=20
> automotive use case is simply that no one brought the PAN use=20
> case on the list.
>=20
> So,  the number of comments we got from folks in various kind=20
> of industry tend to demonstrate the tremendous interest this=20
> topic could have and also the impact on consumer electronic=20
> business (I suspect that the aviation and the automotive use=20
> cases wouldn't be deployed as quickly as PANs for medecine,=20
> emergency units, families, wheelchair, sports, etc.).
>=20
> And, yes, the questions for which we need an answer is:
> - what kind of RO must be supported,
> - what kind of multihoming configuration,
> - what kind of NEMO BU registration (explicit / implicit)
> - what kind of Prefix Delegation
> - what kind of AAA
> - etc
>=20
> My proposition would be to add it explictly in the charter=20
> together with the aviation industry and the automotive=20
> industry requirements.
>=20
> Thierry.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:37:01 +0100
> Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano <cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>=20
> >Hi Pascal:
> >
> >	I also agree that both options (proxy-RO and MR-to-MR)=20
> should be=20
> >carefully studied. However, my point was that I think that also in=20
> >operator-driven scenarios it should be studied how to apply=20
> MR-to-MR RO=20
> >schemes, in addition of the approach of using RO proxies deployed in=20
> >the Internet. The reasoning behind this is that the best=20
> path between=20
> >two NEMOs would always be the direct one between MRs. By=20
> using proxy RO=20
> >entities on the infrastructure, there will always be a trade-off=20
> >between number of proxy RO entities and the level of=20
> optimisation that=20
> >is required.
> >
> >	In summary, I'm not against of studying proxy-RO=20
> schemes, but I think=20
> >that we should not limit the applicability of MR-to-MR approaches to=20
> >emergency scenarios.
> >
> >	Kind Regards,
> >
> >	Carlos J.
> >
> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 16:20 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >escribi:
> >> Hi Carlos:
> >>=20
> >> Now I'm confused. I do agree that 2.5G/3G introduces=20
> latency. But the infrastructure we talk about is the Internet=20
> as opposed to an ISP xG network, so this was not my discussion.=20
> >>=20
> >> Infrastructure-based RO means that the RO end points (e.g.=20
> the proxies) are operated by ISPs, so some trust can be=20
> elaborated between proxies and between proxies and HA. P2P=20
> expects nothing from the ISPs but fat pipes.
> >>=20
> >> I certainly agree that P2P RO has benefits, and we must=20
> study it for sure, for the exact reasons you give. I would=20
> not want to pay when I use my phone as intercom at home. In=20
> an emergency situation P2P RO is all you might get, and you=20
> will certainly care less about billing, privacy and trust.=20
> >>=20
> >> OTOH, a solid world wide 4G solution requires the services=20
> I mentioned...
> >>=20
> >> Hopefully it is not one XOR the other, right?=20
> >>=20
> >> Pascal
> >>=20
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
> >> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:20 PM
> >> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org;=20
> >> >jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile=20
> Router: Next Step?
> >> >
> >> >Hi Pascal,
> >> >
> >> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 11:55 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >escribi:
> >> >> Hi Carlos :)
> >> >>
> >> >> I do not believe that the performance is the issue:
> >> >>
> >> >> If proxy Home Agents are deployed the way SGSNs are today, they=20
> >> >> will be on the way and will not
> >> >cause a visible latency increase. But a proxy HA enables AAA, HA=20
> >> >selection, billing, policy enforcement, trust, and=20
> end-point privacy, which are strong ISP requirements.
> >> >
> >> >	Even if Home Agents are deployed in that way, there=20
> will be a high=20
> >> >latency component introduced by the celular network=20
> itself (we have=20
> >> >performed many real experiments and that delay is always no less=20
> >> >than 100-150ms one-way). As far as I know, operators are=20
> working to=20
> >> >improve the performance (several years ago, the latency=20
> introduced=20
> >> >by 2.5/3G networks was even worse, about almost half a second).
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> OTOH, P2P might not require any of these features and=20
> thus, and a=20
> >> >> direct MR-to-MR RO would seem to
> >> >be the right approach for such applications.
> >> >>
> >> >> Since both scenarii are relevant, I believe there is=20
> room for both=20
> >> >> direct and infrastructure-based
> >> >RO mechanisms, depending on whether you are considering=20
> an ISP service or a P2P.
> >> >
> >> >	I agree that both scenarios are relevant. But I also=20
> think that it=20
> >> >is also interesting to look at the issues you mentioned regarding=20
> >> >ISPs and operators when a RO scheme that do not make use of the=20
> >> >infrastructure is used, and seek for alternative solutions when a=20
> >> >MR-to-MR approach is used instead. Don't you agree that=20
> it would be=20
> >> >better to always avoid traversing the infrastructure if an=20
> >> >alternative path which is shorter, cheaper and provides a=20
> better performance is available?
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Seems fair?
> >> >>
> >> >> Pascal
> >> >>
> >> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >> >From: Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
> >> >> >Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:17 AM
> >> >> >To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >> >Cc: RYUJI WAKIKAWA; Vijay Devarapalli; nemo@ietf.org;=20
> >> >> >jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >> >Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile=20
> Router: Next Step?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Dear Pascal and all,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >	I also agree that personal router scenario is=20
> of interest.=20
> >> >> >However I think that for many of these scenarios, as=20
> other people=20
> >> >> >has already mentioned, in order to benefit from low delay and=20
> >> >> >high bandwidth, it use of celular network interfaces should be=20
> >> >> >avoided. Therefore, I think that for these scenarios,=20
> MR-to-MR RO=20
> >> >> >optimisation schemes are the most suitable ones. Doing=20
> RO in the=20
> >> >> >infrastructure does not help so much in reducing the=20
> delay if you=20
> >> >> >already have ~150ms of one-way delay using UMTS (if=20
> two NEMOs are=20
> >> >> >talking each other and both are connected using, for example,=20
> >> >> >UMTS, then you'll end up having 150x2=3D~300 ms of one=20
> way delay!).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >	Regards,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >	Carlos J.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >El vie, 17-11-2006 a las 10:34 +0100, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> >> >> >escribi:
> >> >> >> Hi Ryuji and Vijay.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I strongly agree that the personal router should be an item=20
> >> >> >> together within the charter.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Talking in various forum, we found interest in a=20
> Personal Area=20
> >> >> >> NEMO
> >> >> >> that:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - Connects voice devices for VoIP (the main application)
> >> >> >> - Connects body sensors (medical devices, sportsmen,=20
> firemen,=20
> >> >> >> location
> >> >> >> monitoring)
> >> >> >> - Connects Personal productivity devices (handheld)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The type of requirements we found in this space:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - for voice:
> >> >> >> a) Privacy: the device should not see the remote CoA
> >> >> >> b) Jitter/Latency: as usual... for instance the one=20
> way latency=20
> >> >> >> should stay below 150ms
> >> >> >> c) Access: Compatibility/awareness with emerging=20
> access such as=20
> >> >> >> mesh networks.
> >> >> >> d) Service: A stable anchor point for AAA, policy=20
> and SLA enforcement.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - for sensors:
> >> >> >> e) Layer 7 triggers: access network awareness=20
> (emergency dial,=20
> >> >> >> bandwidth availability indication...)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - for personal productivity devices
> >> >> >> f) VPN access
> >> >> >> g) Community of interest (user centric overlays, route=20
> >> >> >> projection)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> In particular, to answer Ryuji's question about RO,=20
> we can note=20
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> PANEMO:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - demands a route optimization for NEMO for point b)
> >> >> >> - requires that the RO happens in the Infrastructure=20
> for point=20
> >> >> >> a) whereas g) is more P2P
> >> >> >> - pleads for regional proxy Home Agents for point d) (note,=20
> >> >> >> THIS NOT
> >> >> >> PMIP!!)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Pascal
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >> >> >From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA [mailto:ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com]
> >> >> >> >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:51 AM
> >> >> >> >To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >> >> >> >Cc: nemo@ietf.org; jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >> >> >Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: [IETF - Nemo] Personal=20
> Mobile Router:=20
> >> >> >> >Next
> >> >> >> Step?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Hi Vijay
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Interesting, but I want you to make clarification a=20
> bit more.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >When you said route optimization, what level of=20
> optimization=20
> >> >> >> >is required?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Do you consider like MR-MR direct connection, two HA bypass?
> >> >> >> >I believe you image cellular egress interface and not WiFi.
> >> >> >> >So, your problem must be not here.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >In general, when two MRs talks, two HAs are involved.
> >> >> >> >However, if two MRs are in the same operator, one HA can be=20
> >> >> >> >skipped (i.e. same HA for two MRs).
> >> >> >> >In addition, if the egress is cellular, the HA should be=20
> >> >> >> >located in the cellular network.
> >> >> >> >The latency must be not so big (my guess).
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >I want to know where you want to optimize the path=20
> between two=20
> >> >> >> >personal MRs?!
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >regards,
> >> >> >> >ryuji
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >On 2006/11/16, at 0:29, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> Hi Jean-Michel,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> if there is more interest, I can write something=20
> up in the=20
> >> >> >> >> form of requirements. I was hoping more people would have=20
> >> >> >> >> gone to the mike and said something. the only person who=20
> >> >> >> >> went to the mike was Hesham who asked a "not so relevant"=20
> >> >> >> >> question. :)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Vijay
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> >> >>> From: Jean-Michel Combes=20
> >> >> >> >>> [mailto:jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com]
> >> >> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:05 AM
> >> >> >> >>> To: Vijay Devarapalli
> >> >> >> >>> Cc: jeanmichel.combes@orange-ftgroup.com
> >> >> >> >>> Subject: [IETF - Nemo] Personal Mobile Router: Next Step?
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Hi Vijay,
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Further to your (too) short presentation in the Nemo=20
> >> >> >> >>> session at San Diego, I would like to know what is your=20
> >> >> >> >>> goal regarding the Personal Mobile Router. Do=20
> you expect to=20
> >> >> >> >>> submit a draft in the Nemo WG on the=20
> requirements for such a use case?
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Thanks for the information.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Best regards.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> JMC.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >--
> >> >> >ASCIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> >> >> > Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> >> >> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
> >> >--
> >> >ASCIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> >> > Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> >> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
> >--
> >ASCIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> > Carlos Jess Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> > GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974
> >
> >
>=20
>=20




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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 30 01:51:49 2006
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From: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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On Nov 24, 2006, at 2:30 PM, Thierry Ernst wrote:

>
> My proposition would be to add it explictly in the charter together  
> with
> the aviation industry and the automotive industry requirements.

Sorry, it's simply not a well-defined-enough item to add to the  
charter, which is in the end stages of editing. There would have to  
be more discussion, especially of the concrete specifics of PMR  
deployment cases, and what exactly is needed, before adding to the  
next version of the charter. I don't see enough need to work on this  
problem right now. In fact I'm not entirely sure what the "problem" is.

TJ





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From: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 22:54:32 -0800
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What exactly are the work items you would support adding to the =20
charter..?

On Nov 27, 2006, at 1:51 AM, Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano wrote:

> 	I also support the addition of the PMR scenario to the charter.





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 30 07:06:09 2006
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From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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>> My proposition would be to add it explictly in the charter together  
>> with
>> the aviation industry and the automotive industry requirements.
>
>Sorry, it's simply not a well-defined-enough item to add to the  
>charter, which is in the end stages of editing. There would have to  
>be more discussion, especially of the concrete specifics of PMR  
>deployment cases, and what exactly is needed, before adding to the  
>next version of the charter. I don't see enough need to work on this  
>problem right now. In fact I'm not entirely sure what the "problem" is.

Currently, the charter states:


- Gather requirements for NEMO Route Optimization in deployment
  scenarios.

    - Automotive industry who are deploying NEMO for in-car
      communication, entertainment, and data gathering, possible
      control systems use, and communication to roadside devices.

    - Airline and spacecraft community, who are deploying NEMO for
      control systems, as well as Internet connectivity and
      entertainment systems.


What I meant is to add a 3rd use case, e.g. like this:

 - The consumer eletronic industry, who is willing to deploy
NEMO-embedded Personal Mobile Router for Personal Area Networks (PANs).

If someone has a better sentence, please propose.

Thierry





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 30 18:34:06 2006
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T.J. Kniveton wrote:
> On Nov 24, 2006, at 2:30 PM, Thierry Ernst wrote:
> 
>>
>> My proposition would be to add it explictly in the charter together with
>> the aviation industry and the automotive industry requirements.
> 
> Sorry, it's simply not a well-defined-enough item to add to the charter, 
> which is in the end stages of editing. There would have to be more 
> discussion, especially of the concrete specifics of PMR deployment 
> cases, and what exactly is needed, before adding to the next version of 
> the charter. I don't see enough need to work on this problem right now. 
> In fact I'm not entirely sure what the "problem" is.

not sure what you are looking for. there was a
lot of discussion on what a PMR is and quite a
bit of support to work on a route optimization
solution for this on the mailing list. IMHO, it
is quite obvious that there is support to add
this to the charter.

I also volunteered to work on a document that
describes the problem scope and requirements.

Vijay




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 30 19:10:32 2006
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
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 TJ, 

 > Sorry, it's simply not a well-defined-enough item to add to the
 > charter, which is in the end stages of editing. There would have to
 > be more discussion, especially of the concrete specifics of PMR
 > deployment cases, and what exactly is needed, before adding to the
 > next version of the charter. I don't see enough need to work on this
 > problem right now. In fact I'm not entirely sure what the "problem" is.

=> I think the last sentence above is exactly what makes me wonder what
we're talking about. I completely agree with you, what is the problem? What
documents will be produced ? what's specific to a mobile phone being a
router as far as this WG is concerned? 
Of course a vendor has specifics in terms of HW, deployment issues...etc but
it's not clear what is specific for the IETF here that warrants a new
solution. 

Hesham


 > 
 > TJ
 > 







From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 30 19:42:33 2006
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Hesham Soliman wrote:
>  TJ, 
> 
>  > Sorry, it's simply not a well-defined-enough item to add to the
>  > charter, which is in the end stages of editing. There would have to
>  > be more discussion, especially of the concrete specifics of PMR
>  > deployment cases, and what exactly is needed, before adding to the
>  > next version of the charter. I don't see enough need to work on this
>  > problem right now. In fact I'm not entirely sure what the "problem" is.
> 
> => I think the last sentence above is exactly what makes me wonder what
> we're talking about. I completely agree with you, what is the problem? 

there is a market for personal mobile routers. there
are IPv4 products already available. problem is about
route optimization for these PMRs.

> What
> documents will be produced ? 

just to be clear, nobody is proposing to start working
on a solution in the NEMO WG yet. the proposal is to
add the following as Thierry suggested.

> - Gather requirements for NEMO Route Optimization in deployment
>   scenarios.
> 
>     - Automotive industry who are deploying NEMO for in-car
>       communication, entertainment, and data gathering, possible
>       control systems use, and communication to roadside devices.
> 
>     - Airline and spacecraft community, who are deploying NEMO for
>       control systems, as well as Internet connectivity and
>       entertainment systems.
> 
> 
> What I meant is to add a 3rd use case, e.g. like this:
> 
>  - The consumer eletronic industry, who is willing to deploy
> NEMO-embedded Personal Mobile Router for Personal Area Networks (PANs).

Vijay




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 30 19:46:09 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:45:53 -0800
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On Nov 30, 2006, at 4:42 PM, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> just to be clear, nobody is proposing to start working
> on a solution in the NEMO WG yet. the proposal is to
> add the following as Thierry suggested.
>

>>  - The consumer eletronic industry, who is willing to deploy
>> NEMO-embedded Personal Mobile Router for Personal Area Networks  
>> (PANs).

Can you identify which members of the consumer electronics industry  
are willing to deploy (I assume that means "sell") PMRs for PANs, and  
what specifically are the problems they ran into when building /  
deploying them? Maybe then I can understand the work item that would  
come out of this, and if the work item is to begin with requirements  
gathering, who we would go talk to to get requirements in order to  
solve the problem that I still can't identify.

Thanks,
TJ






From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 30 19:48:05 2006
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
To: "'Vijay Devarapalli'" <vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com>
Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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 > > => I think the last sentence above is exactly what makes 
 > me wonder what
 > > we're talking about. I completely agree with you, what is 
 > the problem? 
 > 
 > there is a market for personal mobile routers. there
 > are IPv4 products already available. problem is about
 > route optimization for these PMRs.

=> Yes of course there is a market, my followup question was about what
warrants a special approach to RO for that market. Why is there something
specific for that market? I don't think that case has been made. 

 > just to be clear, nobody is proposing to start working
 > on a solution in the NEMO WG yet. the proposal is to
 > add the following as Thierry suggested.
 > 
 > > - Gather requirements for NEMO Route Optimization in deployment
 > >   scenarios.
 > > 
 > >     - Automotive industry who are deploying NEMO for in-car
 > >       communication, entertainment, and data gathering, possible
 > >       control systems use, and communication to roadside devices.
 > > 
 > >     - Airline and spacecraft community, who are deploying NEMO for
 > >       control systems, as well as Internet connectivity and
 > >       entertainment systems.
 > > 
 > > 
 > > What I meant is to add a 3rd use case, e.g. like this:
 > > 
 > >  - The consumer eletronic industry, who is willing to deploy
 > > NEMO-embedded Personal Mobile Router for Personal Area 
 > Networks (PANs).

=> I can live with the requirements gathering, but I don't think we should
go beyond that and venture into solutions for specific markets unless a very
strong case is made. 

Hesham

 > 
 > Vijay
 > 






From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 30 21:21:26 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
From: Chan-Wah Ng <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: Hesham Soliman <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
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On Fri, 2006-12-01 at 11:47 +1100, Hesham Soliman wrote:
>  
> 
>  > > => I think the last sentence above is exactly what makes 
>  > me wonder what
>  > > we're talking about. I completely agree with you, what is 
>  > the problem? 
>  > 
>  > there is a market for personal mobile routers. there
>  > are IPv4 products already available. problem is about
>  > route optimization for these PMRs.
> 
> => Yes of course there is a market, my followup question was about what
> warrants a special approach to RO for that market. Why is there something
> specific for that market? I don't think that case has been made. 
> 
>  > just to be clear, nobody is proposing to start working
>  > on a solution in the NEMO WG yet. the proposal is to
>  > add the following as Thierry suggested.
>  > 
>  > > - Gather requirements for NEMO Route Optimization in deployment
>  > >   scenarios.
>  > > 
>  > >     - Automotive industry who are deploying NEMO for in-car
>  > >       communication, entertainment, and data gathering, possible
>  > >       control systems use, and communication to roadside devices.
>  > > 
>  > >     - Airline and spacecraft community, who are deploying NEMO for
>  > >       control systems, as well as Internet connectivity and
>  > >       entertainment systems.
>  > > 
>  > > 
>  > > What I meant is to add a 3rd use case, e.g. like this:
>  > > 
>  > >  - The consumer eletronic industry, who is willing to deploy
>  > > NEMO-embedded Personal Mobile Router for Personal Area 
>  > Networks (PANs).
> 
> => I can live with the requirements gathering, but I don't think we should
> go beyond that and venture into solutions for specific markets unless a very
> strong case is made. 
> 

Fair enough, the idea behind the requirements gathering was to see if
NEMO Basic would satisfy the requirements, if not, what needs to be
done, and whether is it worth doing.  Sounds okay to you?

/rgds
/cwng







From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 30 21:37:32 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
From: Chan-Wah Ng <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
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Hello, TJ, Vijay,

On Thu, 2006-11-30 at 16:45 -0800, T.J. Kniveton wrote:
> On Nov 30, 2006, at 4:42 PM, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> > just to be clear, nobody is proposing to start working
> > on a solution in the NEMO WG yet. the proposal is to
> > add the following as Thierry suggested.
> >
> 
> >>  - The consumer eletronic industry, who is willing to deploy
> >> NEMO-embedded Personal Mobile Router for Personal Area Networks  
> >> (PANs).
> 
> Can you identify which members of the consumer electronics industry  
> are willing to deploy (I assume that means "sell") PMRs for PANs, and  
> what specifically are the problems they ran into when building /  
> deploying them?

I could talk to someone in my (parent) organization for this.

>  Maybe then I can understand the work item that would  
> come out of this, and if the work item is to begin with requirements  
> gathering, who we would go talk to to get requirements in order to  
> solve the problem that I still can't identify.
> 

"problem I still can't identify" 

-> and you could with the aviation and automobile industries but not the
CE?  

hmmm ... the RO problem statement soon-to-be-RFC has specified various
problems.  As I understand it, the requirements collection process is to
check if any of the industries has particularly strong needs to solves
some of these identified problems, and their specific requirements for
solutions solving these problems.

So, what I want to point out is, we are not in the problem statement
stage -- we have already passed that.

/rgds
/cwng




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 30 22:22:49 2006
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
To: "'Chan-Wah Ng'" <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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 > > => I can live with the requirements gathering, but I don't 
 > think we should
 > > go beyond that and venture into solutions for specific 
 > markets unless a very
 > > strong case is made. 
 > > 
 > 
 > Fair enough, the idea behind the requirements gathering was to see if
 > NEMO Basic would satisfy the requirements, if not, what needs to be
 > done, and whether is it worth doing.  Sounds okay to you?

=> To be honest it sounds wishy washy to me and for that reason it's hard to
either endorse it or be against it. It's not clear to me what aspects of the
requirements we're looking at and what could be specific to those
deployments. I haven't heard anything concrete to make me think there is
work to do (which is why you put things in the charter), other than the
obvious "mobile phones would be a potential user of nemo" but of course
we've always known that.

Hesham

 > 
 > /rgds
 > /cwng
 > 
 > 
 > 
 >