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Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 09:54:28 +0100
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From: "BINET David RD-CORE-CAE" <david.binet@orange-ftgroup.com>
To: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>,
	"Chan-Wah Ng" <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
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=20
Hi,

>=20
> =20
>  > > =3D> I can live with the requirements gathering, but I=20
> don't  > think we should  > > go beyond that and venture into=20
> solutions for specific  > markets unless a very  > > strong=20
> case is made.=20
>  > >
>  >
>  > Fair enough, the idea behind the requirements gathering=20
> was to see if  > NEMO Basic would satisfy the requirements,=20
> if not, what needs to be  > done, and whether is it worth=20
> doing.  Sounds okay to you?
>=20
> =3D> To be honest it sounds wishy washy to me and for that=20
> reason it's hard to either endorse it or be against it. It's=20
> not clear to me what aspects of the requirements we're=20
> looking at and what could be specific to those deployments. I=20
> haven't heard anything concrete to make me think there is=20
> work to do (which is why you put things in the charter),=20
> other than the obvious "mobile phones would be a potential=20
> user of nemo" but of course we've always known that.
At this stage, the goal is to define requirements for PMR's use case as
it has been defined in the new charter for automotive and aviation
industries.
Are we sure that there are some specific issues in aviation and
automotive industries ? I do not think but I think it should be more
precisely carried out in order to have clear statement about this.=20
I think it could be useful at least to study PMR requirements since some
persons and some companies clearly state on this list that there is some
interest in defining such requirements. If there is nothing specific in
PMR's use case after these defined requirements, no further work will
have to be carried out.
It seems that there are some RO specific issues in such PMR's use case
and maybe addressing model and scalability issues have to be taken into
account if such PANs are really spread in the "mobile" market.=20

David =20
>=20
> Hesham
>=20
>  >
>  > /rgds
>  > /cwng
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 01 05:41:57 2006
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From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
To: nemo@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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To all who doubt about adding this line for the consumer electronics: 

If the requirements gathering process is pointless for PMR, why would it
be useful to the automotive and aviation industries ? This discussion is
non-sense, what we agreed is that we need to specify what are the
deployment needs for the identified uses cases (we had 2, now it's 3 use
cases), and those deployments needs can be expressed in terms of
configurations to be supported, RO, multihoming, etc.  

The output of these documents would be a better understanding on which
solutions the NEMO WG should work on (what are the RO needs - not what
are the RO problems since it is already documents) since we don't
already agree on that. Some people may argue that the gathering process
could simply be done on the ML, to which I would argue because - for
instance - people from the automotive industry need a sign from the IETF
in order to get themselves involved with us (traditionaly, they don't
speak up at the IETF, at least so far). And they will (they told me).
So, having a document for each identified use case would serve our case.

Please remember the roots of the requirements gathering process: this
was to make sure that there is a need to work on some of the RO and
multihoming issues.

So, charter wise, we only need to add a line in addition to the 2 use
cases already mentioned.

And, quite a lot of people have said they are willing to produce such a
document for PMR (including Vijay, ChanWah and other people already
involved in NEMO i.e. a good sign that this will move on rapidly). For
the aviation industry, we also have volunteers. For the automobile
industry, no body volunteered on the ML yet (but privately, some people
from the automotive industry have told me that they would do it).

Thierry.

> > > => I can live with the requirements gathering, but I don't 
> > think we should
> > > go beyond that and venture into solutions for specific 
> > markets unless a very
> > > strong case is made. 
> > > 
> > 
> > Fair enough, the idea behind the requirements gathering was to see if
> > NEMO Basic would satisfy the requirements, if not, what needs to be
> > done, and whether is it worth doing.  Sounds okay to you?
>
>=> To be honest it sounds wishy washy to me and for that reason it's hard to
>either endorse it or be against it. It's not clear to me what aspects of the
>requirements we're looking at and what could be specific to those
>deployments. I haven't heard anything concrete to make me think there is
>work to do (which is why you put things in the charter), other than the
>obvious "mobile phones would be a potential user of nemo" but of course
>we've always known that.
>
>Hesham
>
> > 
> > /rgds
> > /cwng
> > 




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 01 12:04:11 2006
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From: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 18:04:13 +0100
To: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
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I think it makes sense to analyze this scenario more deeply and see if=20=

there are some specific problems to this scenario that impose a=20
different solution.
Obviously a possible outcome would be that nothing specific is needed,=20=

so there would not be need to work any more on this, but i think that=20
at this point this is not clear.
Besides there seems to be enough energy on the wg to make such analysis=20=

and we could have a discussion with better background once a first=20
version of the analysis of the problem is written.
Regards, marcelo

El 01/12/2006, a las 11:41, Thierry Ernst escribi=F3:

>
>
> To all who doubt about adding this line for the consumer electronics:
>
> If the requirements gathering process is pointless for PMR, why would=20=

> it
> be useful to the automotive and aviation industries ? This discussion=20=

> is
> non-sense, what we agreed is that we need to specify what are the
> deployment needs for the identified uses cases (we had 2, now it's 3=20=

> use
> cases), and those deployments needs can be expressed in terms of
> configurations to be supported, RO, multihoming, etc.
>
> The output of these documents would be a better understanding on which
> solutions the NEMO WG should work on (what are the RO needs - not what
> are the RO problems since it is already documents) since we don't
> already agree on that. Some people may argue that the gathering =
process
> could simply be done on the ML, to which I would argue because - for
> instance - people from the automotive industry need a sign from the=20
> IETF
> in order to get themselves involved with us (traditionaly, they don't
> speak up at the IETF, at least so far). And they will (they told me).
> So, having a document for each identified use case would serve our=20
> case.
>
> Please remember the roots of the requirements gathering process: this
> was to make sure that there is a need to work on some of the RO and
> multihoming issues.
>
> So, charter wise, we only need to add a line in addition to the 2 use
> cases already mentioned.
>
> And, quite a lot of people have said they are willing to produce such =
a
> document for PMR (including Vijay, ChanWah and other people already
> involved in NEMO i.e. a good sign that this will move on rapidly). For
> the aviation industry, we also have volunteers. For the automobile
> industry, no body volunteered on the ML yet (but privately, some =
people
> from the automotive industry have told me that they would do it).
>
> Thierry.
>
>>>> =3D> I can live with the requirements gathering, but I don't
>>> think we should
>>>> go beyond that and venture into solutions for specific
>>> markets unless a very
>>>> strong case is made.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Fair enough, the idea behind the requirements gathering was to see =
if
>>> NEMO Basic would satisfy the requirements, if not, what needs to be
>>> done, and whether is it worth doing.  Sounds okay to you?
>>
>> =3D> To be honest it sounds wishy washy to me and for that reason =
it's=20
>> hard to
>> either endorse it or be against it. It's not clear to me what aspects=20=

>> of the
>> requirements we're looking at and what could be specific to those
>> deployments. I haven't heard anything concrete to make me think there=20=

>> is
>> work to do (which is why you put things in the charter), other than=20=

>> the
>> obvious "mobile phones would be a potential user of nemo" but of=20
>> course
>> we've always known that.
>>
>> Hesham
>>
>>>
>>> /rgds
>>> /cwng
>>>
>





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 01 13:24:34 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
From: Carlos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs?= Bernardos Cano <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>
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Dear T.J.,

	Sorry, this mail pass without me noticing it.

	As other people have already pointed out, I think it's interesting to
add in the charter a work item to gather and study the requirements of
the Personal Mobile Router scenario, as proposed for the automotive and
aviation industry ones. If as a result of this process we decide that
there is no specific RO or NEMO deployment issues for this scenario,
fine, but if we detect that there are issues that should be tackled,
then I think it'd be worth looking at them (I'd be personally interested
on that work, as other people seem to be as well).

	Hope this clarifies what I tried to mean in my previous e-mail.

	Regards,

	Carlos J.

El mi=E9, 29-11-2006 a las 22:54 -0800, T.J. Kniveton escribi=F3:
> What exactly are the work items you would support adding to the =20
> charter..?
>=20
> On Nov 27, 2006, at 1:51 AM, Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano wrote:
>=20
> > 	I also support the addition of the PMR scenario to the charter.
>=20
>=20
--=20
=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
 Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
 GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974


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Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 08:43:16 -0500
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> there is a market for personal mobile routers. there
> are IPv4 products already available. problem is about
> route optimization for these PMRs.

The above does not a problem statement make.

Is there a draft describing (in a few pages) what exactly the problem
is? With enough specificity that one can imagine what a solution might
look like, so one can decide whether a formal WG is needed, what kind
of engineering work needs to be done, and indeed, whether a solution
would actually be deployable in practice, have support of key
stakeholders, etc.?

I don't see the need for this topic to be added to the charter at this
time. That does not mean the problem area isn't interesting or that no
work is needed. It simply needs that (IMO) more ground work needs to
be done first to make it clear what the actual work would be. At that
point we can figure out how best to do the work (e.g., formally
chartering it somewhere).

Thomas




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 03 10:56:52 2006
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From: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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I think the personal mobile router is a great idea
and I hope that we will see products and work
around that.

However, I also have doubts about adding more
work items to the charter. This is not to say that
we can never do this, but my original idea about
the rechartering was that we move from what
could theoretically be done in RO space to a
very constrained set of goals, driven by
specific business needs. Also, I do not think this
working group has the bandwidth to handle
too many topics at the same time. We can
talk about what those topics should be, but
I am very concerned about trying to do too
many things, or adding open-ended work
items.

In any case, I have a few practical observations.
First, I have been ready to take the NEMO charter
to the IESG already for some weeks, but we need
to resolve this issue first. Lets not waste too
much time on this.

Second, it may be that there is commonality
between solutions needed in the automobile
and PMR spaces.

Third, there is a lot of value in doing some
things sequentially. Once we have shown
that we can complete work for one topic
in a timely manner it is much easier to take
on additional topics. Or, as the new charter
indicates, if there is not sufficient energy
to create the working group documents
before a given deadline, the topic in question
is dropped and could be replaced by another
one.

So here's a strawman suggestion on how
to proceed: (1) Charter the working group with
the original two topics now. (2) In parallel
with the WG efforts, Vijay and others who have
an interest in the PMR space work further
with their ideas and requirements, possibly
also gather input from people who are
implementing the PMR without RO. (3)
In April-May 2007, one of several things
has happened. Perhaps we see at that
point that the automotive industry needs
actually point to solutions that satisfy
also the PMR needs. Perhaps we see
that one of the topics has not gotten
enough attention, and so we terminate
that work and recharter to include PMR
in its place. Perhaps both topics have
progressed far enough that there is
evidence that the WG can complete the
requirements phase, at which time we
could recharter to add a third topic.

Thoughts?

--Jari





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 04 03:56:10 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
From: Carlos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs?= Bernardos Cano <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>
To: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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Hi Jari,

	Your proposed approach makes sense to me.

	Regards,

	Carlos J.

El dom, 03-12-2006 a las 07:55 -0800, Jari Arkko escribi=F3:
> I think the personal mobile router is a great idea
> and I hope that we will see products and work
> around that.
>=20
> However, I also have doubts about adding more
> work items to the charter. This is not to say that
> we can never do this, but my original idea about
> the rechartering was that we move from what
> could theoretically be done in RO space to a
> very constrained set of goals, driven by
> specific business needs. Also, I do not think this
> working group has the bandwidth to handle
> too many topics at the same time. We can
> talk about what those topics should be, but
> I am very concerned about trying to do too
> many things, or adding open-ended work
> items.
>=20
> In any case, I have a few practical observations.
> First, I have been ready to take the NEMO charter
> to the IESG already for some weeks, but we need
> to resolve this issue first. Lets not waste too
> much time on this.
>=20
> Second, it may be that there is commonality
> between solutions needed in the automobile
> and PMR spaces.
>=20
> Third, there is a lot of value in doing some
> things sequentially. Once we have shown
> that we can complete work for one topic
> in a timely manner it is much easier to take
> on additional topics. Or, as the new charter
> indicates, if there is not sufficient energy
> to create the working group documents
> before a given deadline, the topic in question
> is dropped and could be replaced by another
> one.
>=20
> So here's a strawman suggestion on how
> to proceed: (1) Charter the working group with
> the original two topics now. (2) In parallel
> with the WG efforts, Vijay and others who have
> an interest in the PMR space work further
> with their ideas and requirements, possibly
> also gather input from people who are
> implementing the PMR without RO. (3)
> In April-May 2007, one of several things
> has happened. Perhaps we see at that
> point that the automotive industry needs
> actually point to solutions that satisfy
> also the PMR needs. Perhaps we see
> that one of the topics has not gotten
> enough attention, and so we terminate
> that work and recharter to include PMR
> in its place. Perhaps both topics have
> progressed far enough that there is
> evidence that the WG can complete the
> requirements phase, at which time we
> could recharter to add a third topic.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> --Jari
>=20
>=20
--=20
=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
 Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
 GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974


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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 04 09:46:17 2006
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Hi all,

We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised
a requirement that he thinks is important but is not
listed in the current document. It is about the effect
to the Internet routing tables. Please find a suggested
edit below. We thought that this change is large
enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even
if the requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So,
if you have a problem with this change let us know
by the end of the week (Dec 8th).

NEW Section 3.12:

3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing

Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the
global Internet routing system. The solution must therefore limit both
the amount of information that must be injected into Internet routing,
as well as the dynamic changes in the information that is injected
into the global routing system.

As one example of why this is necessary, consider the approach of
advertising each mobile network's connectivity into BGP, and for
every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes.
If there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each advertising
and withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that an airplane can
move from one ground station to another, the potential effect on BGP
could be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount of routing
information advertised into BGP may be acceptable, but the dynamic
instability of the information (ie, the number of changes over time)
would be unacceptable.

NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:

R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the
global Internet routing system.





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 04 09:50:33 2006
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From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA <ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] About Test Specification in IPv6 Ready Logo
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 23:50:02 +0900
To: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@motorola.com>
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Hi Alex,

On 2006/11/27, at 21:31, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:

> Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>> On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>>>>> So, even in the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the  
>>>>> mobile network prefix by not using any routing protocol.
>>>> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol. Is there
>>>>  draft or RFC ?
>>> Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can  
>>> install a routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack  
>>> message.  The home agent of the mobile node will know the mobile  
>>> network prefix stored in a binding update message from the mobile
>>>  node, it can also install a routing entry when it receives the  
>>> binding update message.
>> Some more minor additional notes...
>> The above example is for the explicit mode.  And if we use implicit
>>  mode, then these two entities already know what to do when  
>> registration completes.  So either using a dynamic routing or not  
>> is just a configuration issue for route management and it has  
>> nothing to do with the network model.
>
> I think it is not right for HA to add a routing table entry upon
> reception of MNP in the HA.  IT should add it in the binding cache,
> not in routing table.
>
> The routing table is a data structure touched by other independent
> software (ifconfig add, route add, routing daemon read).

This is totally implementation issue.
For example, on some of implementation, ND information is managed in  
a routing table.

> If MIP6-nemo software adds a routing table entry usually it has no way
> to trigger the routing daemon that reads that routing table.  The
> routing daemon reads the routing table only once (when it starts up),
> creating other internal routing tables.  If mip6-demo adds an entry in
> the kernel routing table then that will not be seen by the routing
> daemon.  Which is bad.

Hmm,,, this is your routing daemon IMPLEMENTATION issue.
There is a program to catch a trigger of routing changes after it  
starts up.

ryuji

> That's why I think the routing table entries between MR and HA must be
> there prior to starting up the mip6-nemo software.  This is normal in
> a way: if the MR is at home, we want the HA to still route packets
> towards LFN, although no BU is sent.
> Alex
>
>> # if I'm not missing something.
>> --- Keiichi SHIMA IIJ Research Laboratory <keiichi@iijlab.net> WIDE
>>  Project <shima@wide.ad.jp>
>
>





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From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA <ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 00:36:53 +0900
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Hi Jari,

I want to make sure one item whether it breaks new requirements or not.

We have been discussing multiple HAs usage (global-haha) in NEMO WG.
It is not clear yet whether we will pick this in a WG item, but maybe  
in future.
This global HAHA advertises block of home prefixes to BGP in anycast  
fashion,
but dynamic change of BGP entries is not occurred.

regards,
ryuji


On 2006/12/04, at 23:45, Jari Arkko wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised
> a requirement that he thinks is important but is not
> listed in the current document. It is about the effect
> to the Internet routing tables. Please find a suggested
> edit below. We thought that this change is large
> enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even
> if the requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So,
> if you have a problem with this change let us know
> by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
>
> NEW Section 3.12:
>
> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
>
> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the
> global Internet routing system. The solution must therefore limit both
> the amount of information that must be injected into Internet routing,
> as well as the dynamic changes in the information that is injected
> into the global routing system.
>
> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the approach of
> advertising each mobile network's connectivity into BGP, and for
> every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes.
> If there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each advertising
> and withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that an airplane can
> move from one ground station to another, the potential effect on BGP
> could be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount of routing
> information advertised into BGP may be acceptable, but the dynamic
> instability of the information (ie, the number of changes over time)
> would be unacceptable.
>
> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
>
> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the
> global Internet routing system.
>
>





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From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA <ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 00:38:54 +0900
To: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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Hi

PMR is interesting usage, but the problems are also not clear to me.
I think your approach is fair enough.

ryuji

On 2006/12/04, at 0:55, Jari Arkko wrote:

> I think the personal mobile router is a great idea
> and I hope that we will see products and work
> around that.
>
> However, I also have doubts about adding more
> work items to the charter. This is not to say that
> we can never do this, but my original idea about
> the rechartering was that we move from what
> could theoretically be done in RO space to a
> very constrained set of goals, driven by
> specific business needs. Also, I do not think this
> working group has the bandwidth to handle
> too many topics at the same time. We can
> talk about what those topics should be, but
> I am very concerned about trying to do too
> many things, or adding open-ended work
> items.
>
> In any case, I have a few practical observations.
> First, I have been ready to take the NEMO charter
> to the IESG already for some weeks, but we need
> to resolve this issue first. Lets not waste too
> much time on this.
>
> Second, it may be that there is commonality
> between solutions needed in the automobile
> and PMR spaces.
>
> Third, there is a lot of value in doing some
> things sequentially. Once we have shown
> that we can complete work for one topic
> in a timely manner it is much easier to take
> on additional topics. Or, as the new charter
> indicates, if there is not sufficient energy
> to create the working group documents
> before a given deadline, the topic in question
> is dropped and could be replaced by another
> one.
>
> So here's a strawman suggestion on how
> to proceed: (1) Charter the working group with
> the original two topics now. (2) In parallel
> with the WG efforts, Vijay and others who have
> an interest in the PMR space work further
> with their ideas and requirements, possibly
> also gather input from people who are
> implementing the PMR without RO. (3)
> In April-May 2007, one of several things
> has happened. Perhaps we see at that
> point that the automotive industry needs
> actually point to solutions that satisfy
> also the PMR needs. Perhaps we see
> that one of the topics has not gotten
> enough attention, and so we terminate
> that work and recharter to include PMR
> in its place. Perhaps both topics have
> progressed far enough that there is
> evidence that the WG can complete the
> requirements phase, at which time we
> could recharter to add a third topic.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --Jari
>
>





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RYUJI WAKIKAWA wrote:
> Hi Alex,
> 
> On 2006/11/27, at 21:31, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
> 
>> Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>>> On 2006/11/25, at 13:29, Keiichi SHIMA wrote:
>>>>>> So, even in the case 2, we can put a routing entry for the
>>>>>> mobile network prefix by not using any routing protocol.
>>>>> Please teach the method of not using routing protocol. Is
>>>>> there draft or RFC ?
>>>> Since a mobile node knows its mobile network prefix, it can
>>>> install a routing entry for it after it receives a binding ack
>>>> message.  The home agent of the mobile node will know the
>>>> mobile network prefix stored in a binding update message from
>>>> the mobile node, it can also install a routing entry when it
>>>> receives the binding update message.
>>> Some more minor additional notes... The above example is for the
>>> explicit mode.  And if we use implicit mode, then these two
>>> entities already know what to do when registration completes.  So
>>> either using a dynamic routing or not is just a configuration
>>> issue for route management and it has nothing to do with the
>>> network model.
>> 
>> I think it is not right for HA to add a routing table entry upon 
>> reception of MNP in the HA.  IT should add it in the binding cache,
>>  not in routing table.
>> 
>> The routing table is a data structure touched by other independent 
>> software (ifconfig add, route add, routing daemon read).
> 
> This is totally implementation issue. For example, on some of
> implementation, ND information is managed in a routing table.
> 
>> If MIP6-nemo software adds a routing table entry usually it has no
>> way to trigger the routing daemon that reads that routing table.
>> The routing daemon reads the routing table only once (when it
>> starts up), creating other internal routing tables.  If mip6-demo
>> adds an entry in the kernel routing table then that will not be
>> seen by the routing daemon.  Which is bad.
> 
> Hmm,,, this is your routing daemon IMPLEMENTATION issue. There is a
> program to catch a trigger of routing changes after it starts up.

Right... but there's however no protocol interaction between instances
of NEMOv6 and say OSPF on same machine, other than these entries in the
routing table.  Who decides which routing entry is correct ospf or nemo.
  If both daemons add same entry, or worse, one adds an entry and the
other deletes the same entry - there may be some inconsistencies.

That's why I was suggesting keep these tables separated: binding cache
and routing table, so there's no risk of faulty configuration by
administrator.

Otherwise I agree with you that most of these are implementation issues,
and that my implementation may be different than in your case.

Alex





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 04 10:47:54 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
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I have not looked into HAHA yet, but from your
description below it does not seem to cause
routing problems. It is common to advertise
prefixes from multiple locations.

--Jari

RYUJI WAKIKAWA kirjoitti:
> Hi Jari,
>
> I want to make sure one item whether it breaks new requirements or not.
>
> We have been discussing multiple HAs usage (global-haha) in NEMO WG.
> It is not clear yet whether we will pick this in a WG item, but maybe
> in future.
> This global HAHA advertises block of home prefixes to BGP in anycast
> fashion,
> but dynamic change of BGP entries is not occurred.
>
> regards,
> ryuji
>
>
> On 2006/12/04, at 23:45, Jari Arkko wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised
>> a requirement that he thinks is important but is not
>> listed in the current document. It is about the effect
>> to the Internet routing tables. Please find a suggested
>> edit below. We thought that this change is large
>> enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even
>> if the requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So,
>> if you have a problem with this change let us know
>> by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
>>
>> NEW Section 3.12:
>>
>> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
>>
>> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the
>> global Internet routing system. The solution must therefore limit both
>> the amount of information that must be injected into Internet routing,
>> as well as the dynamic changes in the information that is injected
>> into the global routing system.
>>
>> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the approach of
>> advertising each mobile network's connectivity into BGP, and for
>> every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes.
>> If there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each advertising
>> and withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that an airplane can
>> move from one ground station to another, the potential effect on BGP
>> could be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount of routing
>> information advertised into BGP may be acceptable, but the dynamic
>> instability of the information (ie, the number of changes over time)
>> would be unacceptable.
>>
>> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
>>
>> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the
>> global Internet routing system.
>>
>>
>
>
>





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Jari Arkko wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised a requirement 
> that he thinks is important but is not listed in the current 
> document. It is about the effect to the Internet routing tables. 
> Please find a suggested edit below. We thought that this change is 
> large enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even if the 
> requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So, if you have a problem with
>  this change let us know by the end of the week (Dec 8th).

For me the change is welcome and am surprised this text isn't already
in the draft, because we discussed precisely this at large, and I think
reflects common thinking here.  There's a req approaching this idea
(3.7. 'Scalability') which could be extended with this text.

This is also to mention that apart from the NEMOv6 protocol, and apart
from this requirements document, this requriement may be challenged in
certain contexts, especially knowing that network mobility with BGP has
been shown to be working for a small setting.

Alex

> 
> NEW Section 3.12:
> 
> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
> 
> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the global
>  Internet routing system. The solution must therefore limit both the
>  amount of information that must be injected into Internet routing,
> as well as the dynamic changes in the information that is injected
> into the global routing system.
> 
> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the approach of 
> advertising each mobile network's connectivity into BGP, and for 
> every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes. If 
> there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each advertising and
>  withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that an airplane can 
> move from one ground station to another, the potential effect on BGP 
> could be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount of 
> routing information advertised into BGP may be acceptable, but the 
> dynamic instability of the information (ie, the number of changes 
> over time) would be unacceptable.
> 
> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
> 
> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the global Internet
>  routing system.
> 
> 
> 





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 04 10:50:23 2006
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RYUJI WAKIKAWA wrote:
> Hi Jari,
> 
> I want to make sure one item whether it breaks new requirements or 
> not.
> 
> We have been discussing multiple HAs usage (global-haha) in NEMO WG.
>  It is not clear yet whether we will pick this in a WG item, but
> maybe in future. This global HAHA advertises block of home prefixes
> to BGP in anycast fashion, but dynamic change of BGP entries is not 
> occurred.

I would keep this for future enhancements of the reqs document, or other
reqs document.  For now the reqs document with this requirements added
(Ross proposals) make perfect sense to me.

Alex

> 
> regards, ryuji
> 
> 
> On 2006/12/04, at 23:45, Jari Arkko wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised a requirement 
>> that he thinks is important but is not listed in the current 
>> document. It is about the effect to the Internet routing tables. 
>> Please find a suggested edit below. We thought that this change is 
>> large enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even if the 
>> requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So, if you have a problem 
>> with this change let us know by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
>> 
>> NEW Section 3.12:
>> 
>> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
>> 
>> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the 
>> global Internet routing system. The solution must therefore limit 
>> both the amount of information that must be injected into Internet 
>> routing, as well as the dynamic changes in the information that is 
>> injected into the global routing system.
>> 
>> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the approach of 
>> advertising each mobile network's connectivity into BGP, and for 
>> every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes. If 
>> there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each advertising 
>> and withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that an airplane 
>> can move from one ground station to another, the potential effect 
>> on BGP could be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount 
>> of routing information advertised into BGP may be acceptable, but 
>> the dynamic instability of the information (ie, the number of 
>> changes over time) would be unacceptable.
>> 
>> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
>> 
>> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the global 
>> Internet routing system.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 04 10:50:57 2006
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Hi Alex

<SNIP>

> Right... but there's however no protocol interaction between instances
> of NEMOv6 and say OSPF on same machine, other than these entries in  
> the
> routing table.  Who decides which routing entry is correct ospf or  
> nemo.
>  If both daemons add same entry, or worse, one adds an entry and the
> other deletes the same entry - there may be some inconsistencies.
>
> That's why I was suggesting keep these tables separated: binding cache
> and routing table, so there's no risk of faulty configuration by
> administrator.

In our implementation, the nemo daemon manages MNP in own binding  
cache DB, too.
The nemo daemon only add/modify/delete the route entry of MNP in the  
routing table according to BC DB.
Some of routing daemons has same design.
A daemon has own routing table in the daemon  and apply only changes  
to the routing table in the kernel.
I will not describe each solutions, but there are several ways to  
distinguish routing entry
between NEMO or OSPF.

> Otherwise I agree with you that most of these are implementation  
> issues,
> and that my implementation may be different than in your case.

:-)

ryuji




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RYUJI WAKIKAWA wrote:
> Hi Alex
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
>> Right... but there's however no protocol interaction between 
>> instances of NEMOv6 and say OSPF on same machine, other than these 
>> entries in the routing table.  Who decides which routing entry is 
>> correct ospf or nemo. If both daemons add same entry, or worse, one
>>  adds an entry and the other deletes the same entry - there may be 
>> some inconsistencies.
>> 
>> That's why I was suggesting keep these tables separated: binding 
>> cache and routing table, so there's no risk of faulty configuration
>>  by administrator.
> 
> In our implementation, the nemo daemon manages MNP in own binding 
> cache DB, too. The nemo daemon only add/modify/delete the route entry
>  of MNP in the routing table according to BC DB. Some of routing 
> daemons has same design.

I agree some rt daemons have same design: keep separated table and
add/remove from kernel table.

However I don't agree nemo should add entries in the kernel table.  OSPF
is so made to work all in all hosts (one wouldn't deploy OSPF and BGP on
same machine, without "BGP OSPF Interaction" rfc1403).  NEMO came after
OSPF.  Some HA may run OSPF; adding NEMO on that HA has risks of routing
incoherencies, especially if that NEMO implementation adds entries in
the routing table.

Alex


> A daemon has own routing table in the daemon and apply only changes
> to the routing table in the kernel. I will not describe each
> solutions, but there are several ways to distinguish routing entry
> between NEMO or OSPF.
> 
>> Otherwise I agree with you that most of these are implementation 
>> issues, and that my implementation may be different than in your 
>> case.
> 
> :-)
> 
> ryuji
> 
> 





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From: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
Subject: Re: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 17:31:31 +0100
To: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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Hi,


El 04/12/2006, a las 16:47, Jari Arkko escribi=F3:

> I have not looked into HAHA yet, but from your
> description below it does not seem to cause
> routing problems. It is common to advertise
> prefixes from multiple locations.
>

agree that this is common, but announcing a specific routing entry for=20=

each home network (i.e. end site, not ISP)  does seem to pose=20
scalability issues for the routing system, imho

I mean, we have discussed this before in this ml. If global HAHA is=20
deployed as a global mobility provider i.e. there is a single home=20
prefix that aggregates all the home networks from different end sites,=20=

then, this seems similar to the provider aggregation
However, if each home network of each nemo is announced seaprately,=20
then the number of announced routes increases considerably and i am not=20=

sure if thi contribution to the global routing tables is acceptable.

Anyway, i think the requirement is perfectly ok, we just need to=20
understand what is the intended deployment scenarios for global HAHA=20
and if those scale well.

Regards, marcelo


> --Jari
>
> RYUJI WAKIKAWA kirjoitti:
>> Hi Jari,
>>
>> I want to make sure one item whether it breaks new requirements or=20
>> not.
>>
>> We have been discussing multiple HAs usage (global-haha) in NEMO WG.
>> It is not clear yet whether we will pick this in a WG item, but maybe
>> in future.
>> This global HAHA advertises block of home prefixes to BGP in anycast
>> fashion,
>> but dynamic change of BGP entries is not occurred.
>>
>> regards,
>> ryuji
>>
>>
>> On 2006/12/04, at 23:45, Jari Arkko wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised
>>> a requirement that he thinks is important but is not
>>> listed in the current document. It is about the effect
>>> to the Internet routing tables. Please find a suggested
>>> edit below. We thought that this change is large
>>> enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even
>>> if the requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So,
>>> if you have a problem with this change let us know
>>> by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
>>>
>>> NEW Section 3.12:
>>>
>>> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
>>>
>>> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the
>>> global Internet routing system. The solution must therefore limit=20
>>> both
>>> the amount of information that must be injected into Internet=20
>>> routing,
>>> as well as the dynamic changes in the information that is injected
>>> into the global routing system.
>>>
>>> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the approach of
>>> advertising each mobile network's connectivity into BGP, and for
>>> every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes.
>>> If there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each advertising
>>> and withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that an airplane=20=

>>> can
>>> move from one ground station to another, the potential effect on BGP
>>> could be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount of=20
>>> routing
>>> information advertised into BGP may be acceptable, but the dynamic
>>> instability of the information (ie, the number of changes over time)
>>> would be unacceptable.
>>>
>>> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
>>>
>>> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the
>>> global Internet routing system.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 04 12:23:03 2006
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Alex,
> This is also to mention that apart from the NEMOv6 protocol, and apart
> from this requirements document, this requriement may be challenged in
> certain contexts, especially knowing that network mobility with BGP has
> been shown to be working for a small setting.
It indeed works, and works quite well, in a small setting.
There is no debate about that, but I think everyone agrees
that when we have tens of thousands of networks like that
then we have to do something else. My back-of-the-envelope
calculations indicated that running all of commercial airliners
with this scheme would roughly double global BGP update
traffic.

In any case, I don't think anyone needs to challenge the
requirement as such -- the intention was not to claim
that in small scale this would be a problem.

--Jari





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 04 12:24:49 2006
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Hi Marcelo,
> I mean, we have discussed this before in this ml. If global HAHA is
> deployed as a global mobility provider i.e. there is a single home
> prefix that aggregates all the home networks from different end sites,
> then, this seems similar to the provider aggregation
> However, if each home network of each nemo is announced seaprately,
> then the number of announced routes increases considerably and i am
> not sure if thi contribution to the global routing tables is acceptable.
I see.
> Anyway, i think the requirement is perfectly ok, we just need to
> understand what is the intended deployment scenarios for global HAHA
> and if those scale well.
>
Ok.

--Jari






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From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA <ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 02:25:50 +0900
To: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
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Hi Marcelo,

On 2006/12/05, at 1:31, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> El 04/12/2006, a las 16:47, Jari Arkko escribi=F3:
>
>> I have not looked into HAHA yet, but from your
>> description below it does not seem to cause
>> routing problems. It is common to advertise
>> prefixes from multiple locations.
> agree that this is common, but announcing a specific routing entry =20
> for each home network (i.e. end site, not ISP)  does seem to pose =20
> scalability issues for the routing system, imho

This is too detail to discuss at this point. This is operational issue.

> I mean, we have discussed this before in this ml. If global HAHA is =20=

> deployed as a global mobility provider i.e. there is a single home =20
> prefix that aggregates all the home networks from different end =20
> sites, then, this seems similar to the provider aggregation
> However, if each home network of each nemo is announced seaprately, =20=

> then the number of announced routes increases considerably and i am =20=

> not sure if thi contribution to the global routing tables is =20
> acceptable.

The global HAHA does not recommend to advertise each prefix separately.
We have the home network usage document to deploy home network in =20
aggregated fashion.

> Anyway, i think the requirement is perfectly ok, we just need to =20
> understand what is the intended deployment scenarios for global =20
> HAHA and if those scale well.

right. What i want to know now is the answer from Jari.
We can discuss any further NEMO related protocols with this requirement.

ryuji

> Regards, marcelo
>
>
>> --Jari
>>
>> RYUJI WAKIKAWA kirjoitti:
>>> Hi Jari,
>>>
>>> I want to make sure one item whether it breaks new requirements =20
>>> or not.
>>>
>>> We have been discussing multiple HAs usage (global-haha) in NEMO WG.
>>> It is not clear yet whether we will pick this in a WG item, but =20
>>> maybe
>>> in future.
>>> This global HAHA advertises block of home prefixes to BGP in anycast
>>> fashion,
>>> but dynamic change of BGP entries is not occurred.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> ryuji
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2006/12/04, at 23:45, Jari Arkko wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised
>>>> a requirement that he thinks is important but is not
>>>> listed in the current document. It is about the effect
>>>> to the Internet routing tables. Please find a suggested
>>>> edit below. We thought that this change is large
>>>> enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even
>>>> if the requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So,
>>>> if you have a problem with this change let us know
>>>> by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
>>>>
>>>> NEW Section 3.12:
>>>>
>>>> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
>>>>
>>>> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the
>>>> global Internet routing system. The solution must therefore =20
>>>> limit both
>>>> the amount of information that must be injected into Internet =20
>>>> routing,
>>>> as well as the dynamic changes in the information that is injected
>>>> into the global routing system.
>>>>
>>>> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the approach of
>>>> advertising each mobile network's connectivity into BGP, and for
>>>> every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes.
>>>> If there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each advertising
>>>> and withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that an =20
>>>> airplane can
>>>> move from one ground station to another, the potential effect on =20=

>>>> BGP
>>>> could be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount of =20
>>>> routing
>>>> information advertised into BGP may be acceptable, but the dynamic
>>>> instability of the information (ie, the number of changes over =20
>>>> time)
>>>> would be unacceptable.
>>>>
>>>> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
>>>>
>>>> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the
>>>> global Internet routing system.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>





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From: "Davis, Terry L" <terry.l.davis@boeing.com>
To: "Jari Arkko" <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, "IETF NEMO WG" <nemo@ietf.org>
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Jari

Ross makes an excellent point!  I think that Geof's statistics showed
that Connexion by Boeing with just about 200 aircraft (mobile networks)
in service, we were 21st in forced routing table updates already.

Take care
Terry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net]
> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 6:46 AM
> To: IETF NEMO WG
> Cc: Ross Callon
> Subject: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised
> a requirement that he thinks is important but is not
> listed in the current document. It is about the effect
> to the Internet routing tables. Please find a suggested
> edit below. We thought that this change is large
> enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even
> if the requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So,
> if you have a problem with this change let us know
> by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
>=20
> NEW Section 3.12:
>=20
> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
>=20
> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the
> global Internet routing system. The solution must therefore limit both
> the amount of information that must be injected into Internet routing,
> as well as the dynamic changes in the information that is injected
> into the global routing system.
>=20
> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the approach of
> advertising each mobile network's connectivity into BGP, and for
> every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes.
> If there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each advertising
> and withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that an airplane can
> move from one ground station to another, the potential effect on BGP
> could be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount of routing
> information advertised into BGP may be acceptable, but the dynamic
> instability of the information (ie, the number of changes over time)
> would be unacceptable.
>=20
> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
>=20
> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the
> global Internet routing system.
>=20





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Jari, 

It's hard to disagree with the requirement. As you say the current solution
doesn't break this requirement so it might only be useful for future work,
but it's fine to have it. 

Hesham 

 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net] 
 > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 1:46 AM
 > To: IETF NEMO WG
 > Cc: Ross Callon
 > Subject: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
 > 
 > Hi all,
 > 
 > We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised
 > a requirement that he thinks is important but is not
 > listed in the current document. It is about the effect
 > to the Internet routing tables. Please find a suggested
 > edit below. We thought that this change is large
 > enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even
 > if the requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So,
 > if you have a problem with this change let us know
 > by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
 > 
 > NEW Section 3.12:
 > 
 > 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
 > 
 > Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the
 > global Internet routing system. The solution must therefore 
 > limit both
 > the amount of information that must be injected into 
 > Internet routing,
 > as well as the dynamic changes in the information that is injected
 > into the global routing system.
 > 
 > As one example of why this is necessary, consider the approach of
 > advertising each mobile network's connectivity into BGP, and for
 > every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes.
 > If there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each advertising
 > and withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that an 
 > airplane can
 > move from one ground station to another, the potential effect on BGP
 > could be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount 
 > of routing
 > information advertised into BGP may be acceptable, but the dynamic
 > instability of the information (ie, the number of changes over time)
 > would be unacceptable.
 > 
 > NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
 > 
 > R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the
 > global Internet routing system.
 > 
 > 
 > 






From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 06 13:30:50 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
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Marcelo and Alex,

note that draft-ietf-nemo-requirements only lists
requirements for the NEMO Basic support protocol
not for any route optimization solution that might
come out of the NEMO WG.

the requirement by itself is fine with me. but it
is in the wrong document. :) perhaps we can add a
sentence to the charter saying that any route
optimization solution should have minimal impact on
Internet routing. then the requirement becomes
really applicable to any route optimization solution.

Vijay

marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> El 04/12/2006, a las 16:47, Jari Arkko escribió:
> 
>> I have not looked into HAHA yet, but from your
>> description below it does not seem to cause
>> routing problems. It is common to advertise
>> prefixes from multiple locations.
>>
> 
> agree that this is common, but announcing a specific routing entry for 
> each home network (i.e. end site, not ISP)  does seem to pose 
> scalability issues for the routing system, imho
> 
> I mean, we have discussed this before in this ml. If global HAHA is 
> deployed as a global mobility provider i.e. there is a single home 
> prefix that aggregates all the home networks from different end sites, 
> then, this seems similar to the provider aggregation
> However, if each home network of each nemo is announced seaprately, then 
> the number of announced routes increases considerably and i am not sure 
> if thi contribution to the global routing tables is acceptable.
> 
> Anyway, i think the requirement is perfectly ok, we just need to 
> understand what is the intended deployment scenarios for global HAHA and 
> if those scale well.
> 
> Regards, marcelo
> 
> 
>> --Jari
>>
>> RYUJI WAKIKAWA kirjoitti:
>>> Hi Jari,
>>>
>>> I want to make sure one item whether it breaks new requirements or not.
>>>
>>> We have been discussing multiple HAs usage (global-haha) in NEMO WG.
>>> It is not clear yet whether we will pick this in a WG item, but maybe
>>> in future.
>>> This global HAHA advertises block of home prefixes to BGP in anycast
>>> fashion,
>>> but dynamic change of BGP entries is not occurred.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> ryuji
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2006/12/04, at 23:45, Jari Arkko wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised
>>>> a requirement that he thinks is important but is not
>>>> listed in the current document. It is about the effect
>>>> to the Internet routing tables. Please find a suggested
>>>> edit below. We thought that this change is large
>>>> enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even
>>>> if the requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So,
>>>> if you have a problem with this change let us know
>>>> by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
>>>>
>>>> NEW Section 3.12:
>>>>
>>>> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
>>>>
>>>> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the
>>>> global Internet routing system. The solution must therefore limit both
>>>> the amount of information that must be injected into Internet routing,
>>>> as well as the dynamic changes in the information that is injected
>>>> into the global routing system.
>>>>
>>>> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the approach of
>>>> advertising each mobile network's connectivity into BGP, and for
>>>> every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes.
>>>> If there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each advertising
>>>> and withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that an airplane can
>>>> move from one ground station to another, the potential effect on BGP
>>>> could be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount of routing
>>>> information advertised into BGP may be acceptable, but the dynamic
>>>> instability of the information (ie, the number of changes over time)
>>>> would be unacceptable.
>>>>
>>>> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
>>>>
>>>> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the
>>>> global Internet routing system.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> 
> 





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From: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
Subject: Re: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
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El 06/12/2006, a las 19:29, Vijay Devarapalli escribi=F3:

> Marcelo and Alex,
>
> note that draft-ietf-nemo-requirements only lists
> requirements for the NEMO Basic support protocol
> not for any route optimization solution that might
> come out of the NEMO WG.

:-)
good point

>
> the requirement by itself is fine with me. but it
> is in the wrong document. :) perhaps we can add a
> sentence to the charter saying that any route
> optimization solution should have minimal impact on
> Internet routing. then the requirement becomes
> really applicable to any route optimization solution.
>

agree... but i think this sentence was there

just checked, and it was there in a previous version, that stated that:=20=

" All solutions will aim at
   preserving route aggregation within the Internet"

but it was removed, perhaps it is a good idea to keep it in the new=20
charter...

regards, marcelo


> Vijay
>
> marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
>> Hi,
>> El 04/12/2006, a las 16:47, Jari Arkko escribi=F3:
>>> I have not looked into HAHA yet, but from your
>>> description below it does not seem to cause
>>> routing problems. It is common to advertise
>>> prefixes from multiple locations.
>>>
>> agree that this is common, but announcing a specific routing entry=20
>> for each home network (i.e. end site, not ISP)  does seem to pose=20
>> scalability issues for the routing system, imho
>> I mean, we have discussed this before in this ml. If global HAHA is=20=

>> deployed as a global mobility provider i.e. there is a single home=20
>> prefix that aggregates all the home networks from different end=20
>> sites, then, this seems similar to the provider aggregation
>> However, if each home network of each nemo is announced seaprately,=20=

>> then the number of announced routes increases considerably and i am=20=

>> not sure if thi contribution to the global routing tables is=20
>> acceptable.
>> Anyway, i think the requirement is perfectly ok, we just need to=20
>> understand what is the intended deployment scenarios for global HAHA=20=

>> and if those scale well.
>> Regards, marcelo
>>> --Jari
>>>
>>> RYUJI WAKIKAWA kirjoitti:
>>>> Hi Jari,
>>>>
>>>> I want to make sure one item whether it breaks new requirements or=20=

>>>> not.
>>>>
>>>> We have been discussing multiple HAs usage (global-haha) in NEMO =
WG.
>>>> It is not clear yet whether we will pick this in a WG item, but=20
>>>> maybe
>>>> in future.
>>>> This global HAHA advertises block of home prefixes to BGP in =
anycast
>>>> fashion,
>>>> but dynamic change of BGP entries is not occurred.
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>> ryuji
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2006/12/04, at 23:45, Jari Arkko wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised
>>>>> a requirement that he thinks is important but is not
>>>>> listed in the current document. It is about the effect
>>>>> to the Internet routing tables. Please find a suggested
>>>>> edit below. We thought that this change is large
>>>>> enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even
>>>>> if the requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So,
>>>>> if you have a problem with this change let us know
>>>>> by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
>>>>>
>>>>> NEW Section 3.12:
>>>>>
>>>>> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
>>>>>
>>>>> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the
>>>>> global Internet routing system. The solution must therefore limit=20=

>>>>> both
>>>>> the amount of information that must be injected into Internet=20
>>>>> routing,
>>>>> as well as the dynamic changes in the information that is injected
>>>>> into the global routing system.
>>>>>
>>>>> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the approach of
>>>>> advertising each mobile network's connectivity into BGP, and for
>>>>> every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes.
>>>>> If there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each =
advertising
>>>>> and withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that an airplane=20=

>>>>> can
>>>>> move from one ground station to another, the potential effect on=20=

>>>>> BGP
>>>>> could be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount of=20
>>>>> routing
>>>>> information advertised into BGP may be acceptable, but the dynamic
>>>>> instability of the information (ie, the number of changes over=20
>>>>> time)
>>>>> would be unacceptable.
>>>>>
>>>>> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
>>>>>
>>>>> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the
>>>>> global Internet routing system.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>





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Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> Marcelo and Alex,
> 
> note that draft-ietf-nemo-requirements only lists requirements for 
> the NEMO Basic support protocol not for any route optimization 
> solution that might come out of the NEMO WG.
> 
> the requirement by itself is fine with me.

Yes, I read the Ross req very fine within the current req document, the
one he reviewed.  I agree with it.

> but it is in the wrong document. :)

You mean we may need another reqs document?  Or in the RO existing
documents? (ps, ro space).

> perhaps we can add a sentence to the charter saying that any route 
> optimization solution should have minimal impact on Internet routing.
> 
I think that's difficult.  Charter saying "minimal" may be too fuzzy.
What's minimal for you isn't for me.

> then the requirement becomes really applicable to any route 
> optimization solution.

YEs, that requirement should be more worked out, I think finer
description (than what current req doc has, and the Ross req suggestion).

For example, the Marcelo req about advertising aggregates (provider
aggregates) instead of MNP-based routes is a sort of refinement that may
make sense.  I so think.

Alex

> 
> Vijay
> 
> marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 
>> El 04/12/2006, a las 16:47, Jari Arkko escribió:
>> 
>>> I have not looked into HAHA yet, but from your description below
>>>  it does not seem to cause routing problems. It is common to 
>>> advertise prefixes from multiple locations.
>>> 
>> 
>> agree that this is common, but announcing a specific routing entry
>>  for each home network (i.e. end site, not ISP)  does seem to pose
>>  scalability issues for the routing system, imho
>> 
>> I mean, we have discussed this before in this ml. If global HAHA is
>>  deployed as a global mobility provider i.e. there is a single home
>>  prefix that aggregates all the home networks from different end 
>> sites, then, this seems similar to the provider aggregation 
>> However, if each home network of each nemo is announced seaprately,
>>  then the number of announced routes increases considerably and i 
>> am not sure if thi contribution to the global routing tables is 
>> acceptable.
>> 
>> Anyway, i think the requirement is perfectly ok, we just need to 
>> understand what is the intended deployment scenarios for global 
>> HAHA and if those scale well.
>> 
>> Regards, marcelo
>> 
>> 
>>> --Jari
>>> 
>>> RYUJI WAKIKAWA kirjoitti:
>>>> Hi Jari,
>>>> 
>>>> I want to make sure one item whether it breaks new requirements
>>>>  or not.
>>>> 
>>>> We have been discussing multiple HAs usage (global-haha) in 
>>>> NEMO WG. It is not clear yet whether we will pick this in a WG
>>>>  item, but maybe in future. This global HAHA advertises block
>>>> of home prefixes to BGP in anycast fashion, but dynamic change
>>>> of BGP entries is not occurred.
>>>> 
>>>> regards, ryuji
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 2006/12/04, at 23:45, Jari Arkko wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> 
>>>>> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised a 
>>>>> requirement that he thinks is important but is not listed in
>>>>>  the current document. It is about the effect to the Internet
>>>>>  routing tables. Please find a suggested edit below. We 
>>>>> thought that this change is large enough that the WG needs to
>>>>>  be consulted, even if the requirement is fulfilled by NEMO 
>>>>> BSP. So, if you have a problem with this change let us know 
>>>>> by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
>>>>> 
>>>>> NEW Section 3.12:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
>>>>> 
>>>>> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on 
>>>>> the global Internet routing system. The solution must 
>>>>> therefore limit both the amount of information that must be 
>>>>> injected into Internet routing, as well as the dynamic 
>>>>> changes in the information that is injected into the global 
>>>>> routing system.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the 
>>>>> approach of advertising each mobile network's connectivity 
>>>>> into BGP, and for every movement withdrawing old routes and 
>>>>> injecting new routes. If there were tens of thousands of 
>>>>> mobile networks each advertising and withdrawing routes, for
>>>>>  example, at the speed that an airplane can move from one 
>>>>> ground station to another, the potential effect on BGP could
>>>>>  be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount of 
>>>>> routing information advertised into BGP may be acceptable, 
>>>>> but the dynamic instability of the information (ie, the 
>>>>> number of changes over time) would be unacceptable.
>>>>> 
>>>>> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
>>>>> 
>>>>> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the global
>>>>>  Internet routing system.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 





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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Mobility Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Mobile Network Prefix Delegation
	Author(s)	: T. Kniveton, P. Thubert
	Filename	: draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-01.txt
	Pages		: 25
	Date		: 2006-12-6
	
This paper extends the Nemo Basic Support [9] for a Mobile Router to
   synchronize its Mobile Network Prefixes with its Home Agents and
   obtain new ones dynamically.

   The proposed prefix delegation mechanism is agnostic to the way the
   back end is implemented; it enables bootstrapping, resynchronization
   at binding creation or after a loss of states (eg MR reboot), MNP
   Renumbering, and configuration checking for loop avoidance.

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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 07 06:53:42 2006
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From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
To: nemo@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
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I need to correct a wrong statement:

>Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
>> Marcelo and Alex,
>>=20
>> note that draft-ietf-nemo-requirements only lists requirements for=20
>> the NEMO Basic support protocol not for any route optimization=20
>> solution that might come out of the NEMO WG.

This is half true half wrong. Section 4 in draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
lists the requirements behind NEMO Basic Support (RFC 3963 to be
explicit), but section 3 lists design goals for all sort of NEMO
solutions (Basic AND Extended, i.e. RO optimizations and the like).


>> the requirement by itself is fine with me.
>
>Yes, I read the Ross req very fine within the current req document, the
>one he reviewed.  I agree with it.
>
>> but it is in the wrong document. :)
>
>You mean we may need another reqs document?  Or in the RO existing
>documents? (ps, ro space).
>
>> perhaps we can add a sentence to the charter saying that any route=20
>> optimization solution should have minimal impact on Internet routing.

There is no need to add anything in the charter besides may be adding a
sentence that solutions developped by the NEMO WG will have to comply
with design goals as stated in RFC{draft-ietf-nemo-requirements}.

Thierry.

>I think that's difficult.  Charter saying "minimal" may be too fuzzy.
>What's minimal for you isn't for me.
>
>> then the requirement becomes really applicable to any route=20
>> optimization solution.
>
>YEs, that requirement should be more worked out, I think finer
>description (than what current req doc has, and the Ross req suggestion).
>
>For example, the Marcelo req about advertising aggregates (provider
>aggregates) instead of MNP-based routes is a sort of refinement that may
>make sense.  I so think.
>
>Alex
>
>>=20
>> Vijay
>>=20
>> marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> El 04/12/2006, a las 16:47, Jari Arkko escribi=F3:
>>>=20
>>>> I have not looked into HAHA yet, but from your description below
>>>>  it does not seem to cause routing problems. It is common to=20
>>>> advertise prefixes from multiple locations.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> agree that this is common, but announcing a specific routing entry
>>>  for each home network (i.e. end site, not ISP)  does seem to pose
>>>  scalability issues for the routing system, imho
>>>=20
>>> I mean, we have discussed this before in this ml. If global HAHA is
>>>  deployed as a global mobility provider i.e. there is a single home
>>>  prefix that aggregates all the home networks from different end=20
>>> sites, then, this seems similar to the provider aggregation=20
>>> However, if each home network of each nemo is announced seaprately,
>>>  then the number of announced routes increases considerably and i=20
>>> am not sure if thi contribution to the global routing tables is=20
>>> acceptable.
>>>=20
>>> Anyway, i think the requirement is perfectly ok, we just need to=20
>>> understand what is the intended deployment scenarios for global=20
>>> HAHA and if those scale well.
>>>=20
>>> Regards, marcelo
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> --Jari
>>>>=20
>>>> RYUJI WAKIKAWA kirjoitti:
>>>>> Hi Jari,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I want to make sure one item whether it breaks new requirements
>>>>>  or not.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We have been discussing multiple HAs usage (global-haha) in=20
>>>>> NEMO WG. It is not clear yet whether we will pick this in a WG
>>>>>  item, but maybe in future. This global HAHA advertises block
>>>>> of home prefixes to BGP in anycast fashion, but dynamic change
>>>>> of BGP entries is not occurred.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> regards, ryuji
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 2006/12/04, at 23:45, Jari Arkko wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised a=20
>>>>>> requirement that he thinks is important but is not listed in
>>>>>>  the current document. It is about the effect to the Internet
>>>>>>  routing tables. Please find a suggested edit below. We=20
>>>>>> thought that this change is large enough that the WG needs to
>>>>>>  be consulted, even if the requirement is fulfilled by NEMO=20
>>>>>> BSP. So, if you have a problem with this change let us know=20
>>>>>> by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> NEW Section 3.12:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on=20
>>>>>> the global Internet routing system. The solution must=20
>>>>>> therefore limit both the amount of information that must be=20
>>>>>> injected into Internet routing, as well as the dynamic=20
>>>>>> changes in the information that is injected into the global=20
>>>>>> routing system.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the=20
>>>>>> approach of advertising each mobile network's connectivity=20
>>>>>> into BGP, and for every movement withdrawing old routes and=20
>>>>>> injecting new routes. If there were tens of thousands of=20
>>>>>> mobile networks each advertising and withdrawing routes, for
>>>>>>  example, at the speed that an airplane can move from one=20
>>>>>> ground station to another, the potential effect on BGP could
>>>>>>  be very unfortunate. In this example the total amount of=20
>>>>>> routing information advertised into BGP may be acceptable,=20
>>>>>> but the dynamic instability of the information (ie, the=20
>>>>>> number of changes over time) would be unacceptable.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the global
>>>>>>  Internet routing system.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>
>


--=20
Thierry ERNST, PhD
http://www.nautilus6.org/~thierry
IETF NEMO WG Chair, IETF MonAmi6 Chair, Nautilus6 Chair
--
INRIA Rocquencourt Project-Team IMARA, France.
+33 1 39 63 59 30 (office)





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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 08 17:37:53 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
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From: "Narayanan, Vidya" <vidyan@qualcomm.com>
To: "Vijay Devarapalli" <vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com>,
	"marcelo bagnulo braun" <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>,
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Maybe I have lost too much context on NEMO, but I thought the base =
protocol does support dynamic routing protocols between the MR and HA to =
update the MNPs. In that case, any routing changes to the MNPs are =
expected to propagate via the routing protocols to the rest of the =
network.=20

I would not expect these updates to be as frequently changing as in the =
RO case, but, nevertheless, the capability for propagation through =
routing protocols does exist.=20

Independent of this, the requirement suggested by Ross seems perfectly =
reasonable to me.=20

Vidya=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 10:30 AM
> To: marcelo bagnulo braun; alexandru.petrescu@motorola.com
> Cc: IETF NEMO WG
> Subject: Re: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
>=20
> Marcelo and Alex,
>=20
> note that draft-ietf-nemo-requirements only lists=20
> requirements for the NEMO Basic support protocol not for any=20
> route optimization solution that might come out of the NEMO WG.
>=20
> the requirement by itself is fine with me. but it is in the=20
> wrong document. :) perhaps we can add a sentence to the=20
> charter saying that any route optimization solution should=20
> have minimal impact on Internet routing. then the requirement=20
> becomes really applicable to any route optimization solution.
>=20
> Vijay
>=20
> marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
> > Hi,
> >=20
> >=20
> > El 04/12/2006, a las 16:47, Jari Arkko escribi=F3:
> >=20
> >> I have not looked into HAHA yet, but from your description=20
> below it=20
> >> does not seem to cause routing problems. It is common to advertise=20
> >> prefixes from multiple locations.
> >>
> >=20
> > agree that this is common, but announcing a specific=20
> routing entry for=20
> > each home network (i.e. end site, not ISP)  does seem to pose=20
> > scalability issues for the routing system, imho
> >=20
> > I mean, we have discussed this before in this ml. If global HAHA is=20
> > deployed as a global mobility provider i.e. there is a single home=20
> > prefix that aggregates all the home networks from different=20
> end sites,=20
> > then, this seems similar to the provider aggregation=20
> However, if each=20
> > home network of each nemo is announced seaprately, then the=20
> number of=20
> > announced routes increases considerably and i am not sure if thi=20
> > contribution to the global routing tables is acceptable.
> >=20
> > Anyway, i think the requirement is perfectly ok, we just need to=20
> > understand what is the intended deployment scenarios for=20
> global HAHA=20
> > and if those scale well.
> >=20
> > Regards, marcelo
> >=20
> >=20
> >> --Jari
> >>
> >> RYUJI WAKIKAWA kirjoitti:
> >>> Hi Jari,
> >>>
> >>> I want to make sure one item whether it breaks new=20
> requirements or not.
> >>>
> >>> We have been discussing multiple HAs usage (global-haha)=20
> in NEMO WG.
> >>> It is not clear yet whether we will pick this in a WG item, but=20
> >>> maybe in future.
> >>> This global HAHA advertises block of home prefixes to BGP=20
> in anycast=20
> >>> fashion, but dynamic change of BGP entries is not occurred.
> >>>
> >>> regards,
> >>> ryuji
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 2006/12/04, at 23:45, Jari Arkko wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi all,
> >>>>
> >>>> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised a=20
> requirement=20
> >>>> that he thinks is important but is not listed in the current=20
> >>>> document. It is about the effect to the Internet routing tables.=20
> >>>> Please find a suggested edit below. We thought that this=20
> change is=20
> >>>> large enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even if the=20
> >>>> requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So, if you have a problem=20
> >>>> with this change let us know by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
> >>>>
> >>>> NEW Section 3.12:
> >>>>
> >>>> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
> >>>>
> >>>> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the=20
> >>>> global Internet routing system. The solution must=20
> therefore limit=20
> >>>> both the amount of information that must be injected=20
> into Internet=20
> >>>> routing, as well as the dynamic changes in the=20
> information that is=20
> >>>> injected into the global routing system.
> >>>>
> >>>> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the=20
> approach of=20
> >>>> advertising each mobile network's connectivity into BGP, and for=20
> >>>> every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes.
> >>>> If there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each=20
> advertising=20
> >>>> and withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that=20
> an airplane=20
> >>>> can move from one ground station to another, the=20
> potential effect=20
> >>>> on BGP could be very unfortunate. In this example the=20
> total amount=20
> >>>> of routing information advertised into BGP may be=20
> acceptable, but=20
> >>>> the dynamic instability of the information (ie, the number of=20
> >>>> changes over time) would be unacceptable.
> >>>>
> >>>> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
> >>>>
> >>>> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the global=20
> >>>> Internet routing system.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
>=20
>=20




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 08 17:52:49 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
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From: "Vijay Devarapalli" <Vijay.Devarapalli@AzaireNet.com>
To: "Narayanan, Vidya" <vidyan@qualcomm.com>,
	"marcelo bagnulo braun" <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>,
	<alexandru.petrescu@motorola.com>
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> Maybe I have lost too much context on NEMO, but I thought the=20
> base protocol does support dynamic routing protocols between=20
> the MR and HA to update the MNPs. In that case, any routing=20
> changes to the MNPs are expected to propagate via the routing=20
> protocols to the rest of the network.=20

even then the routes are aggregated under the home network.
the route changes are only propoaged to the link the home
agent the attached to. not beyond the home network.

see draft-ietf-nemo-home-network-models-06.txt for more
information. it is in the RFC Editor queue.

Vijay

>=20
> I would not expect these updates to be as frequently changing=20
> as in the RO case, but, nevertheless, the capability for=20
> propagation through routing protocols does exist.=20
>=20
> Independent of this, the requirement suggested by Ross seems=20
> perfectly reasonable to me.=20
>=20
> Vidya=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com]=20
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 10:30 AM
> > To: marcelo bagnulo braun; alexandru.petrescu@motorola.com
> > Cc: IETF NEMO WG
> > Subject: Re: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
> >=20
> > Marcelo and Alex,
> >=20
> > note that draft-ietf-nemo-requirements only lists=20
> > requirements for the NEMO Basic support protocol not for any=20
> > route optimization solution that might come out of the NEMO WG.
> >=20
> > the requirement by itself is fine with me. but it is in the=20
> > wrong document. :) perhaps we can add a sentence to the=20
> > charter saying that any route optimization solution should=20
> > have minimal impact on Internet routing. then the requirement=20
> > becomes really applicable to any route optimization solution.
> >=20
> > Vijay
> >=20
> > marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > El 04/12/2006, a las 16:47, Jari Arkko escribi=F3:
> > >=20
> > >> I have not looked into HAHA yet, but from your description=20
> > below it=20
> > >> does not seem to cause routing problems. It is common to=20
> advertise=20
> > >> prefixes from multiple locations.
> > >>
> > >=20
> > > agree that this is common, but announcing a specific=20
> > routing entry for=20
> > > each home network (i.e. end site, not ISP)  does seem to pose=20
> > > scalability issues for the routing system, imho
> > >=20
> > > I mean, we have discussed this before in this ml. If=20
> global HAHA is=20
> > > deployed as a global mobility provider i.e. there is a=20
> single home=20
> > > prefix that aggregates all the home networks from different=20
> > end sites,=20
> > > then, this seems similar to the provider aggregation=20
> > However, if each=20
> > > home network of each nemo is announced seaprately, then the=20
> > number of=20
> > > announced routes increases considerably and i am not sure if thi=20
> > > contribution to the global routing tables is acceptable.
> > >=20
> > > Anyway, i think the requirement is perfectly ok, we just need to=20
> > > understand what is the intended deployment scenarios for=20
> > global HAHA=20
> > > and if those scale well.
> > >=20
> > > Regards, marcelo
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >> --Jari
> > >>
> > >> RYUJI WAKIKAWA kirjoitti:
> > >>> Hi Jari,
> > >>>
> > >>> I want to make sure one item whether it breaks new=20
> > requirements or not.
> > >>>
> > >>> We have been discussing multiple HAs usage (global-haha)=20
> > in NEMO WG.
> > >>> It is not clear yet whether we will pick this in a WG item, but=20
> > >>> maybe in future.
> > >>> This global HAHA advertises block of home prefixes to BGP=20
> > in anycast=20
> > >>> fashion, but dynamic change of BGP entries is not occurred.
> > >>>
> > >>> regards,
> > >>> ryuji
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 2006/12/04, at 23:45, Jari Arkko wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hi all,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> We reviewed this draft in the IESG, and Ross raised a=20
> > requirement=20
> > >>>> that he thinks is important but is not listed in the current=20
> > >>>> document. It is about the effect to the Internet=20
> routing tables.=20
> > >>>> Please find a suggested edit below. We thought that this=20
> > change is=20
> > >>>> large enough that the WG needs to be consulted, even if the=20
> > >>>> requirement is fulfilled by NEMO BSP. So, if you have=20
> a problem=20
> > >>>> with this change let us know by the end of the week (Dec 8th).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> NEW Section 3.12:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 3.12  Minimal Impact on Internet Routing
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Any NEMO solution(s) needs have minimal negative effect on the=20
> > >>>> global Internet routing system. The solution must=20
> > therefore limit=20
> > >>>> both the amount of information that must be injected=20
> > into Internet=20
> > >>>> routing, as well as the dynamic changes in the=20
> > information that is=20
> > >>>> injected into the global routing system.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As one example of why this is necessary, consider the=20
> > approach of=20
> > >>>> advertising each mobile network's connectivity into=20
> BGP, and for=20
> > >>>> every movement withdrawing old routes and injecting new routes.
> > >>>> If there were tens of thousands of mobile networks each=20
> > advertising=20
> > >>>> and withdrawing routes, for example, at the speed that=20
> > an airplane=20
> > >>>> can move from one ground station to another, the=20
> > potential effect=20
> > >>>> on BGP could be very unfortunate. In this example the=20
> > total amount=20
> > >>>> of routing information advertised into BGP may be=20
> > acceptable, but=20
> > >>>> the dynamic instability of the information (ie, the number of=20
> > >>>> changes over time) would be unacceptable.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> NEW requirement to be added to the end of Section 4:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> R17: The solution should have a minimal impact on the global=20
> > >>>> Internet routing system.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >=20
> > >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
>=20




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specialist, went into editions battcock, one pure pro.</FONT></DIV>
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From:	"disease bypass" <options@golfheat.com>
To: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: hypotheses hypothesis left LV
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:11:04 +0800
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Hypotheses hypothesis left lv. Approach, physicians match mechanical. =
Cannot pump enough blood meet needs other organs!
Weak pacemaker designed output delay activation from one another.
Organ, transplant virginia receiving hearts monitoring therapies.
Enough blood meet needs other organs as this. With comprises who have =
advanced practice. Need rest healing flow exiting inadequate vads =
bridge.
Output delay, activation from. Designed output delay activation from =
one. Have, advanced practice nurses many. Inadequate, vads bridge =
abiomed system, shorter term andor right.
Together they develop plans therapy atrial, including. Barbour last, =
modified monday december copy!
Form, brain peptide bnp which actually produced.
Cabg med, improves longterm survival compared alone, anterior! Pacemaker =
designed, output delay activation from one another sends.
Ventricles minimally invasive makes helps them better activities. =
Disease bypass graft cabg med, improves longterm survival compared. =
Happens fluid retention changes. Can lead active lives january? =
Quotheart remains number discharge. Practice, nurses many on six or. =
Including, ablation pacemakers icds offers pacing bvp also, know.
Stich, surgical treatment ischemic, approved, lung. Additional please =
university services.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A HREF=3Dhttp://awhak.hk/><IMG =
alt=3D"" hspace=3D0=20
src=3D"cid:000401c71d92$c726fbc0$00000000@jt6" align=3Dbaseline=20
border=3D0></A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hypotheses hypothesis left lv. =
Approach, physicians=20
match mechanical. Cannot pump enough blood meet needs other =
organs!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Weak pacemaker designed output delay =
activation=20
from one another.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Organ, transplant virginia receiving =
hearts=20
monitoring therapies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Enough blood meet needs other organs as =
this. With=20
comprises who have advanced practice. Need rest healing flow exiting =
inadequate=20
vads bridge.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Output delay, activation from. Designed =
output=20
delay activation from one. Have, advanced practice nurses many. =
Inadequate, vads=20
bridge abiomed system, shorter term andor right.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Together they develop plans therapy =
atrial,=20
including. Barbour last, modified monday december copy!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Form, brain peptide bnp which actually =
produced.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cabg med, improves longterm survival =
compared=20
alone, anterior! Pacemaker designed, output delay activation from one =
another sends.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ventricles minimally invasive makes =
helps them=20
better activities. Disease bypass graft cabg med, improves longterm =
survival=20
compared. Happens fluid retention changes. Can lead active lives =
january?=20
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ablation pacemakers icds offers pacing bvp also, know.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Stich, surgical treatment ischemic, =
approved, lung.=20
Additional please university services.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Ck cl cm, cn co cp cq cr.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>American proposes route =
fares.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Pirate bay napster successful, =
illegals, paid. Mind=20
rather busy doubt?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yy yz zb zc zd ze. Headline, feedclick =
eprint=20
reprint videoto herelearn sections centers notice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Care designhome, equityauto, designgame =
smart=20
answers success?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Column burden deal regulatory =
columnists blogsopen=20
macbook pro! Preview exclusive kit nowraquo defect. Upon condition =
accept binary=20
carefully installing. Them webcast key, mobile? Cd price, cubaby =
sherwin.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Somes neither requests nor pass, hubs. =
Alerts=20
shops, gadgets, hosting storiesthe bastard training thief. Evolution =
patrol=20
combines presence discusses management.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sight charge eccentric designed assets =
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protected corporate.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Briefer timea gonna comea carol affaira =
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deaf.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cover table contents excerpt surprise =
sentencea=20
improbable. Economic buyer habendum, clause survey. Restrict absences =
rally leht offers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jons blog column burden. Intent, =
avoiding dogged=20
quotjudge fileshare favors.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Reality, tabled yearit cosponsors bring =
efe!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Swiss belgians jeremy kirk confiscate, =
belgium arrested.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Silicon commentsbw worlds toughest =
challenges=20
tmmerrill, lynch.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Powerful officials other stories =
interest quadruple=20
murders. Minority buyers charged higher mortgage, real.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Consider won masses esoteric =
art.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nor pass hubs greatly?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Situation interfere crime scenes =
traipse sanchez spokesman.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Javacom usprivacy agentland agentagent =
virtual.=20
Speeds broadband, cardraquo radware protect, today make =
fast.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lifestyle sata centsmmup strikesway, =
infantry=20
division views mount fujimm.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kd ke kf kg kh ki!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ft fu, fv fw, fx fy fz, ga gc. Rubbing =
salt, wound=20
turned penned lawcourts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Program same didnt makes impossible =
changes did=20
succeed modifying. Initiated comes heels against accusing piracy =
demanding=20
damages.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 11 23:24:23 2006
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:23:14 -0800
From: Vijay Devarapalli <vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com>
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Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
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Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> Hi:
> 
> I performed some clean up and republished the draft, mostly as it was,
> in order to restart the work on this dormant WG doc.

Do we still need this work? Perhaps DHCPv6-based
prefix delegation is sufficient for NEMO?

> 
> What was not changed (yet) is:
> 
> 1) addition to DHAAD to located PD compatible HAs (my proposal, need
> feedback)

Not needed as explained below.

> 2) Vijay's suggestion to get rid of the new bit to signal a full list is
> required (see down this mail). Vijay proposes that the HA send back at
> least one MNP option where the prefix is reset if there is no prefix
> listed for that MR. We could also have a "full list" option with the
> number of prefixes and then the prefixes one by one. We need to discuss
> that...
> 
> What do you think?

I still think what I suggested earlier is cleaner
solution. The current draft is way to complicated
for a protocol that is supposed to request for a
prefix and get one assigned. Here is my earlier
proposal again.

>> we define a new option, "MNP Information", that can be carried
>> in a BU and BAck.
>>
>> - the MR wants to know what MNPs are assigned to it
>>
>>   the MR just sends a BU with the MNP Information option, with a
>>   bit set to indicate that it is a request, to the HA. if the HA
>>   implements draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation draft it responds
>>   with a list of prefixes using the MNP Information option, but
>>   with a bit set to indicate that it is a response. if there are
>>   no prefixes assigned to the MR, the HA returns an empty MNP
>>   Information option. if the HA happens to be a RFC 3963 HA that
>>   does not implement draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation, it just
>>   ignores the MNP Information option and includes nothing in the
>>   Binding Ack. here I have avoided using the Mobile Network
>>   Prefix option defined in RFC 3963. Mobile Network Prefix option
>>   was designed to carry just one prefix. it can't carry mutliple
>>   prefixes. to carry multiple prefixes, RFC 3963 says, multiple
>>   MNP options have to be included in the BU.
>>
>> - the MR wants to get a new prefix assigned
>>
>>   the MR includes the Mobile Network Prefix Request option
>>   (defined in draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation) in the BU
>>   and gets the prefix from the HA. if the HA does not implement
>>   draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation, then the option is ignored.
>>
>> let me know what you think about this proposal.

Vijay




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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 12 05:30:25 2006
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To: IETF NEMO WG <nemo@ietf.org>, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: [nemo] new requirement for draft-ietf-nemo-requirements
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Thanks for your responses. I added a note to the
RFC Editor to insert the requirement. Ross, I believe
you can clear your Discuss now. Thanks.

I will also look at the new charter with the
chairs and consider if it needs to say something
about this, or if the reference to this RFC will
be enough.

--Jari





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 12 05:59:32 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: comments on draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
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Hi Vijay

>>
>> I performed some clean up and republished the draft, mostly as it
was,
>> in order to restart the work on this dormant WG doc.
>
>Do we still need this work? Perhaps DHCPv6-based
>prefix delegation is sufficient for NEMO?

[Pascal] This was discussed before and at this point, the draft is
accepted as a WG document. For the record, we kept text in the draft
that explains why it is there in parallel to DHCP based. This is
detailed in section 4.4 of:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-01
.txt=20

Pascal




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 12 08:11:04 2006
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Pascal, Vijay, I'm not sure whether the MIP-based prefix allocation
method is or not useful.  But this discussion helps me see where the
DHCP-based prefix delegation allocation lacks - may need improvement.

Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> Hi Vijay
> 
>>> I performed some clean up and republished the draft, mostly as it
>>>  was, in order to restart the work on this dormant WG doc.
>> Do we still need this work? Perhaps DHCPv6-based prefix delegation 
>> is sufficient for NEMO?
> 
> [Pascal] This was discussed before and at this point, the draft is 
> accepted as a WG document. For the record, we kept text in the draft
>  that explains why it is there in parallel to DHCP based. This is 
> detailed in section 4.4 of: 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-01
>  .txt

which says:
> Yet, in a deployment where the MNPs are preassigned to the MR, a AAA
>  server, interfacing with the HA, and eventually coupled with a 
> provisioning system in its back end, can provide the required service
>  for assigning and authorizing the prefixes to the MRs; in such a 
> case, the value of implementing a DHCPv6PD server is highly arguable.
>  It is more generic to let the HA handle the backend interfaces on 
> behalf of the MR and expose a consistent NEMO interface for all 
> deployments.

This makes no sense to support MIP-based prefix allocation.

For one, AAA doesn't assign prefixes, but addresses.

The second aspect is that even if AAA allocated prefixes some day then
it wouldn't need MIP to achieve that.  It would do it by itself.

It makes no sense to say that DHCP-based prefix allocation is not needed
because AAA does it.  It doesn't.

There may be an opportunity to extend AAA to do it though.  (not sure
how auhtorization of a prefix would work).

> Delegating Router: A collocated Delegating Router function may not be
>  available for all implementation of NEMO Home Agent.  In particular,
>  some implementations are server based.

And a AAA agent would be available on same HA?

> Operational overhead: Depending on the mechanism that is used to 
> attribute the MNPs to the MRs, the Delegating function, even if 
> available, might be a costly overhead.  Rather, an embedded, back- 
> end agnostic flow might be a desirable option.

You mean AAA?  Is that less costly than DHCP?  Can't DHCP Relay/Server
mechanisms be equated to 'backend'?

> Movement overhead: Some flows, for instance local mobility 
> management, might require a prefix delegation as part of the handling
>  of the movement.  Segregating the delegation from the binding adds a
>  round trip delay to the recovery from the movement.

That's a different thing.  I think you hint netlmm?  I am not sure what
netlmm is currently.  But netlmm done with dhcp may make sense.  Netlmm
done with mip (pmip) may have incompatibilities with mip.

In both cases, extensions to both DHCP and MIP are needed if we talk
netlmm.  We can't just say that MIP does it better.  It's unknown currently.

> Binding Lifetime: It might be useful to associate implicitly the 
> lifetime of a delegated prefix with that of the binding.  This pleads
>  for a design that places the Home Agent function in the flow by 
> construction.

Yes, it is highly desirable to have binding lifetime equal dhcp lease
time.  This can be achieved with a proper interface between dhcp and mip.

> Authentication Mechanism: While NEMO basic Support protects its own 
> flows, there is no mandate to secure the tunneled packets.

I don't get this.  I understand NEMOv6 uses IPsec between MR and HA for
the HoA and CoA and HA@.  Why should the inner (tunneled) packets be
secured?  Why lack of this requirement is supporting the MIP-based
prefix allocation?

DHCP allocation can work securely.

> Back-end interaction: If a prefix is attributed to a MR for a 
> duration that exceeds that of its binding, this information needs to
>  be shared with all HAs, at least for authorization purposes.

This can be achieved by all HAs on link be Relays, although I don't know
  whether a Relay can be a Delegating Router.

Secondary DHCP Servers may work too.

> This requires a specific backend integration that does not exist in 
> the Prefix Delegation Function, for instance via a AAA server.

Not sure what exactly is this function?  What is that AAA server can do
that the DHCP server can't do, in order to share the prefix info amongst
  HAs?

Alex





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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:17:33 -0800
From: Vijay Devarapalli <vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com>
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To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
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Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> Hi Vijay
> 
>>> I performed some clean up and republished the draft, mostly as it
> was,
>>> in order to restart the work on this dormant WG doc.
>> Do we still need this work? Perhaps DHCPv6-based
>> prefix delegation is sufficient for NEMO?
> 
> [Pascal] This was discussed before and at this point, the draft is
> accepted as a WG document. For the record, we kept text in the draft
> that explains why it is there in parallel to DHCP based. This is
> detailed in section 4.4 of:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-01
> .txt 

It is never late to ask such questions. I asked
because nothing was done on this draft for over
a year. And it got published again with the
exact same text, which means no work was done on
it for a while.

Moreover, there seems to be consensus on doing
prefix delegation using DHCPv6.

Vijay




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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 12 21:12:16 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
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Vijay,

The draft was intended to be simple, but there is more signaling info 
that is needed other than just "request and assign" a prefix. For 
instance, how long is the prefix supposed to last for? Is it permanent? 
How do I negotiate the length of the prefix? How do I know, if the 
request fails, why it failed and what I should do about it?





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 12 21:12:45 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
References: <20061201001006.LRGO14364.omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com@PC20005>	<456F7A69.4030601@azairenet.com>	<200612031343.kB3DhGCj026879@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com>
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Jari Arkko wrote:
> So here's a strawman suggestion on how
> to proceed: (1) Charter the working group with
> the original two topics now. (2) In parallel
> with the WG efforts, Vijay and others who have
> an interest in the PMR space work further
> with their ideas and requirements, possibly
> also gather input from people who are
> implementing the PMR without RO. (3)
> In April-May 2007, one of several things
> has happened. Perhaps we see at that
> point that the automotive industry needs
> actually point to solutions that satisfy
> also the PMR needs. Perhaps we see
> that one of the topics has not gotten
> enough attention, and so we terminate
> that work and recharter to include PMR
> in its place. Perhaps both topics have
> progressed far enough that there is
> evidence that the WG can complete the
> requirements phase, at which time we
> could recharter to add a third topic.
Is there anyone who is *not* in agreement with Jari's suggestion on how 
to move forward with the charter?

TJ





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 12 22:19:28 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 19:18:47 -0800
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Thread-Topic: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Thread-Index: AcceXVk5AGrwlCUUQrGcaBCHIwli9gABhKXA
From: "Narayanan, Vidya" <vidyan@qualcomm.com>
To: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>, "Jari Arkko" <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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I paid attention to this thread a bit too late, nevertheless, here are
some thoughts.=20

The one thing that is not yet totally clear to me is whether we will end
up needing different RO solutions for each specific set of requirements
we collect. That actually seems quite undesirable to me from an end user
perspective. Of course, if the critical requirements in each category
are so vastly different and we have a situation where we simply don't
have a subset of agreeable requirements, it may just be that we need
different solutions. But, until we are done with the requirements phase,
it is not feasible to answer that question.=20

In terms of the charter, I would much prefer to see requirements
collected from all use cases of industry interest as of now and
determine the solution direction as the next step. I think that PMR is
an important use case for the industry - on RO for PMR, I'm not so sure
- which is why it'd be worthwhile to go through the step of collecting
requirements.=20

As of now, the charter pre-supposes that we will have separate solution
drafts for the aviation and automotive industries. I suggest that we
hold off on that and instead have this charter revision only collect and
consolidate requirements and try to identify if there is an acceptable
subset that can lead to a unified solution. A subsequent charter
revision can add the relevant solution milestones that will be more
accurate based on the requirements.=20

My 2 cents,
Vidya  =20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: T.J. Kniveton [mailto:tj@kniveton.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 6:12 PM
> To: Jari Arkko
> Cc: 'ml-nemo WG'
> Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
>=20
> Jari Arkko wrote:
> > So here's a strawman suggestion on how to proceed: (1) Charter the=20
> > working group with the original two topics now. (2) In=20
> parallel with=20
> > the WG efforts, Vijay and others who have an interest in=20
> the PMR space=20
> > work further with their ideas and requirements, possibly=20
> also gather=20
> > input from people who are implementing the PMR without RO. (3) In=20
> > April-May 2007, one of several things has happened. Perhaps=20
> we see at=20
> > that point that the automotive industry needs actually point to=20
> > solutions that satisfy also the PMR needs. Perhaps we see=20
> that one of=20
> > the topics has not gotten enough attention, and so we=20
> terminate that=20
> > work and recharter to include PMR in its place. Perhaps both topics=20
> > have progressed far enough that there is evidence that the WG can=20
> > complete the requirements phase, at which time we could=20
> recharter to=20
> > add a third topic.
> Is there anyone who is *not* in agreement with Jari's=20
> suggestion on how to move forward with the charter?
>=20
> TJ
>=20
>=20
>=20




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 13 00:00:50 2006
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I think we can still keep the protocol simple.

T.J. Kniveton wrote:
> Vijay,
> 
> The draft was intended to be simple, but there is more signaling info 
> that is needed other than just "request and assign" a prefix. For 
> instance, how long is the prefix supposed to last for? Is it permanent? 

Two options.

1. Make it last as long the mobile router has a binding
cache entry at the home agent. The prefix after all was
obtained through a Binding Update/Binding Ack exchange
that created the binding cache entry.

2. Add a lifetime field to the option which carries the
prefix.

> How do I negotiate the length of the prefix? 

There is no negotiation. The Home Agent always tells the
MR what the prefix length is. Anyway if the prefix is
going to be assigned to the subnet which corresponds to
the mobile network, it has to be /64.

> How do I know, if the 
> request fails, 

No response from the HA in the binding ack.

> why it failed 

Does it matter to the mobile router? The mobile router
just needs to know that the HA can't assign it any
prefix.

> and what I should do about it?

Try another Home Agent? If that fails too bail out?

Vijay




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 13 05:33:28 2006
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Vidya,
> The one thing that is not yet totally clear to me is whether we will end
> up needing different RO solutions for each specific set of requirements
> we collect. That actually seems quite undesirable to me from an end user
> perspective. ...
> As of now, the charter pre-supposes that we will have separate solution
> drafts for the aviation and automotive industries. I suggest that we
> hold off on that and instead have this charter revision only collect and
> consolidate requirements and try to identify if there is an acceptable
> subset that can lead to a unified solution. A subsequent charter
> revision can add the relevant solution milestones that will be more
> accurate based on the requirements. 
>   
I think there is some likelihood that the needs are
indeed different enough that we cannot have just
one solution. Also, I do worry about attempting to
design a generic solution for a problem that is very,
very hard in the general case.

But your point is still taken. There needs to be
a step between the requirements and the
individual solutions. We should have an opportunity
to discuss if the different needs can be covered
by one mechanism. Perhaps some words could
be added to the charter to this effect.

--Jari





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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 13 12:36:08 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:35:18 -0800
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Thread-Topic: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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From: "Narayanan, Vidya" <vidyan@qualcomm.com>
To: "Jari Arkko" <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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Hi Jari,=20

> >  =20
> I think there is some likelihood that the needs are indeed=20
> different enough that we cannot have just one solution. Also,=20
> I do worry about attempting to design a generic solution for=20
> a problem that is very, very hard in the general case.
>=20

I do agree with your point. But, if we have all the requirements in
front of us, we can see if two solutions, if not one, satisfy the
identified sets of requirements. I just think that assuming a 1:1
relationship between number of categories and number of solutions would
be undesirable.=20

> But your point is still taken. There needs to be a step=20
> between the requirements and the individual solutions. We=20
> should have an opportunity to discuss if the different needs=20
> can be covered by one mechanism. Perhaps some words could be=20
> added to the charter to this effect.
>=20

To this effect, are we adding the PMR needs as a category to collect
requirements from?=20

Vidya

> --Jari
>=20
>=20




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 13 12:54:28 2006
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Vidya,
> To this effect, are we adding the PMR needs as a category to collect
> requirements from? 
>   
I would rather start from a small set of
areas to collect requirements from, and
then add more later as we have progressed
with the first ones. I know this isn't optimized
from the point of view of getting one solution
that covers many needs. However, I think we
need focus on concrete cases with tangible
benefits to deployment more than we need
a universal solution in this case.

--Jari





From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 13 16:42:39 2006
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:42:38 +0100
From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
To: nemo@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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Hi,

But then, I would start with the PMR use case, not the automotive use
case. People from the automotive industry are not yet involved within
the IETF, hopefully they would soon (I got good signs and feedback from
related industries), but they don't have the IETF insight. For the PMR
use case, many people on the list used to IETF process have said they
are willing to collect the requirements. I'm sure they will in a very
efficient way. In addition, (some people from) the automotive industry
(e.g. ISO TC204 WG 16's CALM protocol architecture, or the Car-to-Car
Communication Consortium) right now is more trying to figure out where
exactly IPv6 would fit in (not as opposed with IPv4: there is a clear
indication from them that IPv4 is no-go). Their list of requirements
would rather embrace the entire set of IPv6 protocols instead of being
NEMO-specific. There would obviously be some MANET and NEMO there
(MANEMO), but not only. 

The aviation industry case is another story. We already have commitment
from NASA and Boeing, but I don't see in the short term this use case
involving more people that we presently have. And this would take years
to be deployed, whereas the PMR use case could be quite quickly.

So, leaving PMR out is like cutting our own feets. If this is a strategy
to make sure the work as specified in the charter is not done,
dismissing PMR is surely the right thing to do.

Thierry.




On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:54:18 +0200
Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> wrote:

>Vidya,
>> To this effect, are we adding the PMR needs as a category to collect
>> requirements from? 
>>   
>I would rather start from a small set of
>areas to collect requirements from, and
>then add more later as we have progressed
>with the first ones. I know this isn't optimized
>from the point of view of getting one solution
>that covers many needs. However, I think we
>need focus on concrete cases with tangible
>benefits to deployment more than we need
>a universal solution in this case.
>
>--Jari
>
>




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 13 21:48:03 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:47:27 -0800
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From: "Narayanan, Vidya" <vidyan@qualcomm.com>
To: "Thierry Ernst" <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>, <nemo@ietf.org>
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I agree with Thierry here. =20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thierry Ernst [mailto:thierry.ernst@inria.fr]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 1:43 PM
> To: nemo@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
>=20
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> But then, I would start with the PMR use case, not the=20
> automotive use case. People from the automotive industry are=20
> not yet involved within the IETF, hopefully they would soon=20
> (I got good signs and feedback from related industries), but=20
> they don't have the IETF insight. For the PMR use case, many=20
> people on the list used to IETF process have said they are=20
> willing to collect the requirements. I'm sure they will in a=20
> very efficient way. In addition, (some people from) the=20
> automotive industry (e.g. ISO TC204 WG 16's CALM protocol=20
> architecture, or the Car-to-Car Communication Consortium)=20
> right now is more trying to figure out where exactly IPv6=20
> would fit in (not as opposed with IPv4: there is a clear=20
> indication from them that IPv4 is no-go). Their list of=20
> requirements would rather embrace the entire set of IPv6=20
> protocols instead of being NEMO-specific. There would=20
> obviously be some MANET and NEMO there (MANEMO), but not only.=20
>=20
> The aviation industry case is another story. We already have=20
> commitment from NASA and Boeing, but I don't see in the short=20
> term this use case involving more people that we presently=20
> have. And this would take years to be deployed, whereas the=20
> PMR use case could be quite quickly.
>=20
> So, leaving PMR out is like cutting our own feets. If this is=20
> a strategy to make sure the work as specified in the charter=20
> is not done, dismissing PMR is surely the right thing to do.
>=20
> Thierry.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:54:18 +0200
> Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> wrote:
>=20
> >Vidya,
> >> To this effect, are we adding the PMR needs as a category=20
> to collect=20
> >> requirements from?
> >>  =20
> >I would rather start from a small set of areas to collect=20
> requirements=20
> >from, and then add more later as we have progressed with the first=20
> >ones. I know this isn't optimized from the point of view of=20
> getting one=20
> >solution that covers many needs. However, I think we need focus on=20
> >concrete cases with tangible benefits to deployment more=20
> than we need a=20
> >universal solution in this case.
> >
> >--Jari
> >
> >
>=20
>=20




From documents@ardenlake.com Thu Dec 14 00:58:06 2006
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src=3D"cid:000301c71f44$cba42d40$edc53a42@paula" align=3Dbaseline=20
border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wont, improve including just type plus. =
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mention poodles.=20
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From: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:01:49 -0800
To: "Narayanan, Vidya" <vidyan@qualcomm.com>
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Well LCD should always be factored. But the deployment of these  
solutions is quite different. Routing issues and spheres of  
capability are quite different as well.

TJ

On Dec 12, 2006, at 7:18 PM, Narayanan, Vidya wrote:

> I paid attention to this thread a bit too late, nevertheless, here are
> some thoughts.
>
> The one thing that is not yet totally clear to me is whether we  
> will end
> up needing different RO solutions for each specific set of  
> requirements
> we collect. That actually seems quite undesirable to me from an end  
> user
> perspective. Of course, if the critical requirements in each category
> are so vastly different and we have a situation where we simply don't
> have a subset of agreeable requirements, it may just be that we need
> different solutions. But, until we are done with the requirements  
> phase,
> it is not feasible to answer that question.
>
> In terms of the charter, I would much prefer to see requirements
> collected from all use cases of industry interest as of now and
> determine the solution direction as the next step. I think that PMR is
> an important use case for the industry - on RO for PMR, I'm not so  
> sure
> - which is why it'd be worthwhile to go through the step of collecting
> requirements.
>
> As of now, the charter pre-supposes that we will have separate  
> solution
> drafts for the aviation and automotive industries. I suggest that we
> hold off on that and instead have this charter revision only  
> collect and
> consolidate requirements and try to identify if there is an acceptable
> subset that can lead to a unified solution. A subsequent charter
> revision can add the relevant solution milestones that will be more
> accurate based on the requirements.
>
> My 2 cents,
> Vidya
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: T.J. Kniveton [mailto:tj@kniveton.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 6:12 PM
>> To: Jari Arkko
>> Cc: 'ml-nemo WG'
>> Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
>>
>> Jari Arkko wrote:
>>> So here's a strawman suggestion on how to proceed: (1) Charter the
>>> working group with the original two topics now. (2) In
>> parallel with
>>> the WG efforts, Vijay and others who have an interest in
>> the PMR space
>>> work further with their ideas and requirements, possibly
>> also gather
>>> input from people who are implementing the PMR without RO. (3) In
>>> April-May 2007, one of several things has happened. Perhaps
>> we see at
>>> that point that the automotive industry needs actually point to
>>> solutions that satisfy also the PMR needs. Perhaps we see
>> that one of
>>> the topics has not gotten enough attention, and so we
>> terminate that
>>> work and recharter to include PMR in its place. Perhaps both topics
>>> have progressed far enough that there is evidence that the WG can
>>> complete the requirements phase, at which time we could
>> recharter to
>>> add a third topic.
>> Is there anyone who is *not* in agreement with Jari's
>> suggestion on how to move forward with the charter?
>>
>> TJ
>>
>>
>>
>





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From: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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On Dec 13, 2006, at 9:35 AM, Narayanan, Vidya wrote:

> I do agree with your point. But, if we have all the requirements in
> front of us, we can see if two solutions, if not one, satisfy the
> identified sets of requirements.

Let's make an analogy.

An ISP with a /16 IPv4 prefix and my home DSL router with a /28  
prefix both have address blocks that need to be managed. I want to  
set up routing for my 8 IP addresses, delegate reverse DNS entries,  
and control routing and NAT (gasp). But my solution might be  
different from the ISP advertising their address space.

Same goes for an airplane flying around with a large prefix, an auto  
with a couple servers onboard, or my cell phone sitting in my back  
pocket and communicating with a few MNNs. Same paradigm, different  
deployment problems.


From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 14 02:12:53 2006
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From: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:00:38 -0800
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Sounds like you want to have a method to assign a very temporary MP.  
We were thinking more about requesting a longer-term MP. I don't  
really have an opinion about whether one or the other should be  
preferred, but usually granting of something like a prefix would be  
more longer-term..

On Dec 12, 2006, at 8:59 PM, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:

> I think we can still keep the protocol simple.
>
> T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>> Vijay,
>> The draft was intended to be simple, but there is more signaling  
>> info that is needed other than just "request and assign" a prefix.  
>> For instance, how long is the prefix supposed to last for? Is it  
>> permanent?
>
> Two options.
>
> 1. Make it last as long the mobile router has a binding
> cache entry at the home agent. The prefix after all was
> obtained through a Binding Update/Binding Ack exchange
> that created the binding cache entry.
>
> 2. Add a lifetime field to the option which carries the
> prefix.
>
>> How do I negotiate the length of the prefix?
>
> There is no negotiation. The Home Agent always tells the
> MR what the prefix length is. Anyway if the prefix is
> going to be assigned to the subnet which corresponds to
> the mobile network, it has to be /64.
>
>> How do I know, if the request fails,
>
> No response from the HA in the binding ack.
>
>> why it failed
>
> Does it matter to the mobile router? The mobile router
> just needs to know that the HA can't assign it any
> prefix.
>
>> and what I should do about it?
>
> Try another Home Agent? If that fails too bail out?
>
> Vijay
>







From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 14 02:12:53 2006
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From: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:05:14 -0800
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On Dec 13, 2006, at 9:35 AM, Narayanan, Vidya wrote:

> I do agree with your point. But, if we have all the requirements in
> front of us, we can see if two solutions, if not one, satisfy the
> identified sets of requirements.

Let's make an analogy.

An ISP with a /16 IPv4 prefix and my home DSL router with a /28  
prefix both have address blocks that need to be managed. I want to  
set up routing for my 8 IP addresses, delegate reverse DNS entries,  
and control routing and NAT (gasp). But my solution might be  
different from the ISP advertising their address space.

Same goes for an airplane flying around with a large prefix, an auto  
with a couple servers onboard, or my cell phone sitting in my back  
pocket and communicating with a few MNNs. Same paradigm, different  
deployment problems.


From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 14 02:12:53 2006
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From: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:00:38 -0800
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Sounds like you want to have a method to assign a very temporary MP.  
We were thinking more about requesting a longer-term MP. I don't  
really have an opinion about whether one or the other should be  
preferred, but usually granting of something like a prefix would be  
more longer-term..

On Dec 12, 2006, at 8:59 PM, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:

> I think we can still keep the protocol simple.
>
> T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>> Vijay,
>> The draft was intended to be simple, but there is more signaling  
>> info that is needed other than just "request and assign" a prefix.  
>> For instance, how long is the prefix supposed to last for? Is it  
>> permanent?
>
> Two options.
>
> 1. Make it last as long the mobile router has a binding
> cache entry at the home agent. The prefix after all was
> obtained through a Binding Update/Binding Ack exchange
> that created the binding cache entry.
>
> 2. Add a lifetime field to the option which carries the
> prefix.
>
>> How do I negotiate the length of the prefix?
>
> There is no negotiation. The Home Agent always tells the
> MR what the prefix length is. Anyway if the prefix is
> going to be assigned to the subnet which corresponds to
> the mobile network, it has to be /64.
>
>> How do I know, if the request fails,
>
> No response from the HA in the binding ack.
>
>> why it failed
>
> Does it matter to the mobile router? The mobile router
> just needs to know that the HA can't assign it any
> prefix.
>
>> and what I should do about it?
>
> Try another Home Agent? If that fails too bail out?
>
> Vijay
>







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T.J. Kniveton wrote:
> Sounds like you want to have a method to assign a very temporary MP. We 
> were thinking more about requesting a longer-term MP. I don't really 
> have an opinion about whether one or the other should be preferred, but 
> usually granting of something like a prefix would be more longer-term..

Just add a lifetime field to the option. A 32 bit
lifetime field gives you 136 years of lifetime for
the mobile network prefix. That should be long
enough.

This was one of the options I had suggested in my
earlier mail.

Vijay

> 
> On Dec 12, 2006, at 8:59 PM, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
> 
>> I think we can still keep the protocol simple.
>>
>> T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>>> Vijay,
>>> The draft was intended to be simple, but there is more signaling info 
>>> that is needed other than just "request and assign" a prefix. For 
>>> instance, how long is the prefix supposed to last for? Is it permanent?
>>
>> Two options.
>>
>> 1. Make it last as long the mobile router has a binding
>> cache entry at the home agent. The prefix after all was
>> obtained through a Binding Update/Binding Ack exchange
>> that created the binding cache entry.
>>
>> 2. Add a lifetime field to the option which carries the
>> prefix.
>>
>>> How do I negotiate the length of the prefix?
>>
>> There is no negotiation. The Home Agent always tells the
>> MR what the prefix length is. Anyway if the prefix is
>> going to be assigned to the subnet which corresponds to
>> the mobile network, it has to be /64.
>>
>>> How do I know, if the request fails,
>>
>> No response from the HA in the binding ack.
>>
>>> why it failed
>>
>> Does it matter to the mobile router? The mobile router
>> just needs to know that the HA can't assign it any
>> prefix.
>>
>>> and what I should do about it?
>>
>> Try another Home Agent? If that fails too bail out?
>>
>> Vijay
>>
> 





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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 14 10:10:16 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:09:49 +0100
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Thread-Topic: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
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From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Thierry Ernst" <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>, <nemo@ietf.org>
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I agree with Thierry.=20

We have been working with the automotive industry for years and my
feeling is that they are moving slowing and are not ready yet. The
business model is unclear, and cost of goods is too high for now. So
it's all evaluation and reflection for a number of years to come.=20

The automotive year is an order of magnitude longer than the calendar
one. That is 2 orders of magnitude from the Internet year... Please
someone from automotive answer and prove me wrong. The Home Gateway
industry, for instance, deploys IP much more actively than in the
automotive industry these days, and NEMO with MIPTRANS could be a viable
alternate to softwires to bring a permanent IPv6 network at home.

The plane industry is certainly interesting. They have proven their
willingness to move forward, try and deploy things. OTOH, they seem to
have a satisfying answer with BGP for the short term, and the scale of
deployment is too narrow for others than niche companies to make
specific developments.

Finally, we see an explosion of handheld devices (palms, phones, i-pods,
medical sensors) which would largely benefit from always on, shared
connectivity from a Personal Mobile Router. There are immediate and
present needs with a clearer problem to solve.

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Thierry Ernst [mailto:thierry.ernst@inria.fr]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:43 PM
>To: nemo@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [nemo] Usage Requirement - Personal Mobile Router
>
>
>Hi,
>
>But then, I would start with the PMR use case, not the automotive use
>case. People from the automotive industry are not yet involved within
>the IETF, hopefully they would soon (I got good signs and feedback from
>related industries), but they don't have the IETF insight. For the PMR
>use case, many people on the list used to IETF process have said they
>are willing to collect the requirements. I'm sure they will in a very
>efficient way. In addition, (some people from) the automotive industry
>(e.g. ISO TC204 WG 16's CALM protocol architecture, or the Car-to-Car
>Communication Consortium) right now is more trying to figure out where
>exactly IPv6 would fit in (not as opposed with IPv4: there is a clear
>indication from them that IPv4 is no-go). Their list of requirements
>would rather embrace the entire set of IPv6 protocols instead of being
>NEMO-specific. There would obviously be some MANET and NEMO there
>(MANEMO), but not only.
>
>The aviation industry case is another story. We already have commitment
>from NASA and Boeing, but I don't see in the short term this use case
>involving more people that we presently have. And this would take years
>to be deployed, whereas the PMR use case could be quite quickly.
>
>So, leaving PMR out is like cutting our own feets. If this is a
strategy
>to make sure the work as specified in the charter is not done,
>dismissing PMR is surely the right thing to do.
>
>Thierry.
>
>
>
>
>On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:54:18 +0200
>Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> wrote:
>
>>Vidya,
>>> To this effect, are we adding the PMR needs as a category to collect
>>> requirements from?
>>>
>>I would rather start from a small set of
>>areas to collect requirements from, and
>>then add more later as we have progressed
>>with the first ones. I know this isn't optimized
>>from the point of view of getting one solution
>>that covers many needs. However, I think we
>>need focus on concrete cases with tangible
>>benefits to deployment more than we need
>>a universal solution in this case.
>>
>>--Jari
>>
>>




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 14 11:21:51 2006
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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: comments on draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
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	Vijay Devarapalli <vijay.devarapalli@AzaireNet.com>
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Hi Alex:
>This makes no sense to support MIP-based prefix allocation.
>
>For one, AAA doesn't assign prefixes, but addresses.

[Pascal] The Assign Address Anly protocol :)

On the constructive side, I'd say that the radius attributes for NEMO (:
the protocol, not the user :) are still to be defined - maybe extending
RFC 2868 for NEMO tunnels? If someone is interested in moving forward
with that effort, please raise your hand!

NEMO requires that the HA checks the MNP in explicit prefix mode. One
way of doing that for the HA is to obtain the MNP(s) from a AAA server,
for instance using attribute 26 for the lack of a standard way.=20

For instance, both the Home Address and the MNP can be assigned
incrementally and stored in an LDAP directory by the ISP provisioning
system (part of Operations Support System, OSS) when the MR account is
created. AAA does not assign the MNPs, it enables the HA to retrieve
them from some LDAP directory over RADIUS.=20

Even though the interaction between the HA and the backend is off topic
for the draft, this example illustrate how the draft enables this very
traditional ISP provisioning model for the case of NEMO. As a result, a
NEMO MR can be shipped to a customer with minimum information and be
bootstrapped upon the first power-on sequence from the HA.

Pascal




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 14 11:57:35 2006
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Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

> On the constructive side, I'd say that the radius attributes for NEMO (:
> the protocol, not the user :) are still to be defined - maybe extending
> RFC 2868 for NEMO tunnels? If someone is interested in moving forward
> with that effort, please raise your hand!

Nope. We should be extending the following drafts.
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mip6-radius-01.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dime-mip6-split-01.txt

Vijay




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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: comments on draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
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Makes sense...=20

Did you get in touch with the authors already?

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@AzaireNet.com]
>Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 5:57 PM
>To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>Cc: nemo@ietf.org; tj@kniveton.com
>Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on
draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
>
>Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>
>> On the constructive side, I'd say that the radius attributes for NEMO
(:
>> the protocol, not the user :) are still to be defined - maybe
extending
>> RFC 2868 for NEMO tunnels? If someone is interested in moving forward
>> with that effort, please raise your hand!
>
>Nope. We should be extending the following drafts.
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mip6-radius-01.txt
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dime-mip6-split-01.txt
>
>Vijay




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 14 12:03:41 2006
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Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> Makes sense... 
> 
> Did you get in touch with the authors already?

I could bring it up. In fact it might be a good exercise
in the NEMO WG to figure out what all needs to be added
between the HA and the AAAH for NEMOv6 to work. Then we
can extend those documents.

Vijay

> 
> Pascal
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@AzaireNet.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 5:57 PM
>> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>> Cc: nemo@ietf.org; tj@kniveton.com
>> Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on
> draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
>> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>>
>>> On the constructive side, I'd say that the radius attributes for NEMO
> (:
>>> the protocol, not the user :) are still to be defined - maybe
> extending
>>> RFC 2868 for NEMO tunnels? If someone is interested in moving forward
>>> with that effort, please raise your hand!
>> Nope. We should be extending the following drafts.
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mip6-radius-01.txt
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dime-mip6-split-01.txt
>>
>> Vijay





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I thought I answered this but somehow the mail got lost.

I agree with Vijay's lifetime proposal.=20

In fact, the draft lets the MR ask for a prefix length - for instance if
it has multiple interfaces, it can ask for a /60. In a similar fashion,
the MR could ask for a given lifetime.

A - very - temporary prefix might indeed be useful for privacy for,
within or outside NEMO...

What do you think?
=20
Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@AzaireNet.com]
>Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 8:31 AM
>To: T.J. Kniveton
>Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); nemo@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on
draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
>
>T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>> Sounds like you want to have a method to assign a very temporary MP.
We
>> were thinkFrom nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 14 12:16:39 2006
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I thought I answered this but somehow the mail got lost.

I agree with Vijay's lifetime proposal.=20

In fact, the draft lets the MR ask for a prefix length - for instance if
it has multiple interfaces, it can ask for a /60. In a similar fashion,
the MR could ask for a given lifetime.

A - very - temporary prefix might indeed be useful for privacy for,
within or outside NEMO...

What do you think?
=20
Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@AzaireNet.com]
>Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 8:31 AM
>To: T.J. Kniveton
>Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); nemo@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on
draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
>
>T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>> Sounds like you want to have a method to assign a very temporary MP.
We
>> were thinking more about requesting a longer-term MP. I don't really
>> have an opinion about whether one or the other should be preferred,
but
>> usually granting of something like a prefix would be more
longer-term..
>
>Just add a lifetime field to the option. A 32 bit
>lifetime field gives you 136 years of lifetime for
>the mobile network prefix. That should be long
>enough.
>
>This was one of the options I had suggested in my
>earlier mail.
>
>Vijay
>
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2006, at 8:59 PM, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
>>
>>> I think we can still keep the protocol simple.
>>>
>>> T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>>>> Vijay,
>>>> The draft was intended to be simple, but there is more signaling
info
>>>> that is needed other than just "request and assign" a prefix. For
>>>> instance, how long is the prefix supposed to last for? Is it
permanent?
>>>
>>> Two options.
>>>
>>> 1. Make it last as long the mobile router has a binding
>>> cache entry at the home agent. The prefix after all was
>>> obtained through a Binding Update/Binding Ack exchange
>>> that created the binding cache entry.
>>>
>>> 2. Add a lifetime field to the option which carries the
>>> prefix.
>>>
>>>> How do I negotiate the length of the prefix?
>>>
>>> There is no negotiation. The Home Agent always tells the
>>> MR what the prefix length is. Anyway if the prefix is
>>> going to be assigned to the subnet which corresponds to
>>> the mobile network, it has to be /64.
>>>
>>>> How do I know, if the request fails,
>>>
>>> No response from the HA in the binding ack.
>>>
>>>> why it failed
>>>
>>> Does it matter to the mobile router? The mobile router
>>> just needs to know that the HA can't assign it any
>>> prefix.
>>>
>>>> and what I should do about it?
>>>
>>> Try another Home Agent? If that fails too bail out?
>>>
>>> Vijay
>>>
>>


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Thread-Topic: [nemo] RE: comments on draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
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From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Vijay Devarapalli" <vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com>
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	|Subject:=20RE=ing more about requesting a longer-term MP. I don't really
>> have an opinion about whether one or the other should be preferred,
but
>> usually granting of something like a prefix would be more
longer-term..
>
>Just add a lifetime field to the option. A 32 bit
>lifetime field gives you 136 years of lifetime for
>the mobile network prefix. That should be long
>enough.
>
>This was one of the options I had suggested in my
>earlier mail.
>
>Vijay
>
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2006, at 8:59 PM, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
>>
>>> I think we can still keep the protocol simple.
>>>
>>> T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>>>> Vijay,
>>>> The draft was intended to be simple, but there is more signaling
info
>>>> that is needed other than just "request and assign" a prefix. For
>>>> instance, how long is the prefix supposed to last for? Is it
permanent?
>>>
>>> Two options.
>>>
>>> 1. Make it last as long the mobile router has a binding
>>> cache entry at the home agent. The prefix after all was
>>> obtained through a Binding Update/Binding Ack exchange
>>> that created the binding cache entry.
>>>
>>> 2. Add a lifetime field to the option which carries the
>>> prefix.
>>>
>>>> How do I negotiate the length of the prefix?
>>>
>>> There is no negotiation. The Home Agent always tells the
>>> MR what the prefix length is. Anyway if the prefix is
>>> going to be assigned to the subnet which corresponds to
>>> the mobile network, it has to be /64.
>>>
>>>> How do I know, if the request fails,
>>>
>>> No response from the HA in the binding ack.
>>>
>>>> why it failed
>>>
>>> Does it matter to the mobile router? The mobile router
>>> just needs to know that the HA can't assign it any
>>> prefix.
>>>
>>>> and what I should do about it?
>>>
>>> Try another Home Agent? If that fails too bail out?
>>>
>>> Vijay
>>>
>>


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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: comments on draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:16:20 +0100
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Thread-Topic: [nemo] RE: comments on draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
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From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Vijay Devarapalli" <vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com>
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Please do; we need to make sure that they are aware before last call.

As of the exercise, a new attribute for the MNP seems an obvious
requirement.

If the MR uses SeND over the Mobile Network, it needs some ownership
certificate as well.=20

What else?

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com]
>Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 6:04 PM
>To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>Cc: nemo@ietf.org; tj@kniveton.com
>Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on
draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
>
>Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>> Makes sense...
>>
>> Did you get in touch with the authors already?
>
>I could bring it up. In fact it might be a good exercise
>in the NEMO WG to figure out what all needs to be added
>between the HA and the AAAH for NEMOv6 to work. Then we
>can extend those documents.
>
>Vijay
>
>>
>> Pascal
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@AzaireNet.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 5:57 PM
>>> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>>> Cc: nemo@ietf.org; tj@kniveton.com
>>> Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on
>> draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
>>> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>>>
>>>> On the constructive side, I'd say that the radius attributes for
NEMO
>> (:
>>>> the protocol, not the user :) are still to be defined - maybe
>> extending
>>>> RFC 2868 for NEMO tunnels? If someone is interested in moving
forward
>>>> with that effort, please raise your hand!
>>> Nope. We should be extending the following drafts.
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mip6-radius-01.txt
>>>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dime-mip6-split-01.txt
>>>
>>> Vijay






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Please do; we need to make sure that they are aware before last call.

As of the exercise, a new attribute for the MNP seems an obvious
requirement.

If the MR uses SeND over the Mobile Network, it needs some ownership
certificate as well.=20

What else?

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com]
>Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 6:04 PM
>To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>Cc: nemo@ietf.org; tj@kniveton.com
>Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on
draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
>
>Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>> Makes sense...
>>
>> Did you get in touch with the authors already?
>
>I could bring it up. In fact it might be a good exercise
>in the NEMO WG to figure out what all needs to be added
>between the HA and the AAAH for NEMOv6 to work. Then we
>can extend those documents.
>
>Vijay
>
>>
>> Pascal
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijay.devarapalli@AzaireNet.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 5:57 PM
>>> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>>> Cc: nemo@ietf.org; tj@kniveton.com
>>> Subject: Re: [nemo] RE: comments on
>> draft-ietf-nemo-prefix-delegation-00.txt
>>> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>>>
>>>> On the constructive side, I'd say that the radius attributes for
NEMO
>> (:
>>>> the protocol, not the user :) are still to be defined - maybe
>> extending
>>>> RFC 2868 for NEMO tunnels? If someone is interested in moving
forward
>>>> with that effort, please raise your hand!
>>> Nope. We should be extending the following drafts.
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mip6-radius-01.txt
>>>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dime-mip6-split-01.txt
>>>
>>> Vijay






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Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> Hi Alex:
>> This makes no sense to support MIP-based prefix allocation.
>> 
>> For one, AAA doesn't assign prefixes, but addresses.
> 
> [Pascal] The Assign Address Anly protocol :)
> 
> On the constructive side, I'd say that the radius attributes for NEMO
>  (: the protocol, not the user :) are still to be defined - maybe 
> extending RFC 2868 for NEMO tunnels? If someone is interested in 
> moving forward with that effort, please raise your hand!
> 
> NEMO requires that the HA checks the MNP in explicit prefix mode. One
>  way of doing that for the HA is to obtain the MNP(s) from a AAA 
> server, for instance using attribute 26 for the lack of a standard 
> way.

Well, the requirement is to check against the prefix table, not against
a backend.

> For instance, both the Home Address and the MNP can be assigned 
> incrementally and stored in an LDAP directory by the ISP provisioning
>  system (part of Operations Support System, OSS) when the MR account 
> is created. AAA does not assign the MNPs, it enables the HA to 
> retrieve them from some LDAP directory over RADIUS.

This sounds as something it could be work on.

But, LDAP is not caring abouot addresses and prefixes to be assigned to
entities.  It cares about other higher level variables such as user
names, passwords, wellknown dns servers and gateways, etc.

> Even though the interaction between the HA and the backend is off 
> topic for the draft, this example illustrate how the draft enables 
> this very traditional ISP provisioning model for the case of NEMO.

Some ISPs use DHCPv3 Secondary servers, not sure whether they call them
'backend', but they do maintain a coherent pool of leases.

So the backend provisioning model can be provided by DHCP too.

> As a result, a NEMO MR can be shipped to a customer with minimum 
> information and be bootstrapped upon the first power-on sequence from
>  the HA.

Same if it were DHCP pd.

This makes think the MIP6 split bootstrapping protocol doesn't deliver
the MNP to the MR part of MN...

Alex




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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 14 22:40:00 2006
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From: "Seyed Hani Mohajerani" <seyed.mohajerani@nicta.com.au>
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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:35:15 +1100
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Subject: [nemo] Q about NEMO Basic Support Protocol / Routing
	protocol-Implicit-Explicit?? 
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Hi, guys 

I am new in this mailing list & NEMO. 

 

I have few questions about NEMO Basic Support Protocol (RFC 3963), section:
5.2 Sending Binding Updates [page 10].

It says:

"A Mobile Router sends Binding Updates to its Home Agent, as described
   in [1].  If the Mobile Router is not running a routing protocol as
   described in section 8, it uses one of the following modes to tell
   the Home Agent to determine which prefixes belong to the Mobile
   Router.  In both modes, the Mobile Router sets the Mobile Router Flag
   (R).
 
      Implicit: In this mode, the Mobile Router does not include a Mobile
         Network Prefix Option in the Binding Update.  The Home Agent
         can use any mechanism (not defined in this document) to
         determine the Mobile Network Prefix(es) owned by the Mobile
         Router and to set up forwarding for the Mobile Network.  One
         example would be manual configuration at the Home Agent mapping
         the Mobile Router's Home Address to the information required
         for setting up forwarding for the Mobile Network.
 
      Explicit:..
"

My questions are:  

Couldn't routing protocol be one of mechanisms for HA to determine the
mobile Network Prefix(es) owned by MR in Implicit mode ?

And don't we need to set MR Flag (R) (for at least establishing tunnel) when
we are using a dynamic routing protocol [RFC 3963, Section 8]?

 

I reviewed the RFC few times but somehow it looks like a conflict to me!!

 

I appreciate if any body can answer my questions.

 

TA

 

-Seyed 

   



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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hi, guys <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I am new in this mailing list &amp; NEMO.=
 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I have few questions about <b><span style=
=3D'font-weight:bold'>NEMO
Basic Support Protocol (RFC 3963), section: 5.2 Sending Binding Updates=
 [page
10].<o:p></o:p></span></b></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>It says:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<pre><i><font size=3D3 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-style:italic'>&#8220;A <st1:place w:st=3D"on">Mobile</st1:place>=
 Router sends Binding Updates to its Home Agent, as=
 described<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></pre><pre><i><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-style:italic'>&nbsp;&nbsp; in [1].&nbsp;=
 <b><u><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>If the <st1:place w:st=3D"on">Mobile</st1:place>=
 Router is not running a routing protocol=
 as<o:p></o:p></span></u></b></span></font></i></pre><pre><b><i><u><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>&nbsp;&nbsp; described in section=
 8</span></font></u></i></b><i><font
size=3D3><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-style:italic'>, it uses one=
 of the following modes to=
 tell<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></pre><pre><i><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-style:italic'>&nbsp;&nbsp; the Home Agent to=
 determine which prefixes belong to the <st1:City
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=
=3D"on">Mobile</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></span></font></i></pre><pr=
e><i><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-style:italic'>&nbsp;&nbsp; Router.&nbsp; In both=
 modes, the Mobile Router sets the Mobile Router=
 Flag<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></pre><pre><i><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-style:italic'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 (R).<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></pre><pre><i><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-style:italic'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></i>=
</pre><pre><i><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-style:italic'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Implicit:</span></font></i> In this mode, the Mobile Router does not=
 include a <st1:City
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=
=3D"on">Mobile</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Network Prefix Option in the Binding Update.&nbsp; The Home=
 Agent<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; can=
 use <b><u><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>any mechanism</span></u></b> (not defined in=
 this document) to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 determine the Mobile Network Prefix(es) owned by the <st1:City
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=
=3D"on">Mobile</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><f=
ont
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Router and to set up forwarding for the Mobile Network.&nbsp;=
 One<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 example would be manual configuration at the Home Agent=
 mapping<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the=
 Mobile Router's Home Address to the information=
 required<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for=
 setting up forwarding for the Mobile=
 Network.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><i><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-style:italic'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></i>=
</pre><pre><i><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-style:italic'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Explicit:&#8230;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></pre><pre><i><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-style:italic'>&#8220;</span></font></i><i><font
size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-style:
italic'><o:p></o:p></span></font></i></pre>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>My questions are:&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Couldn&#8217;t routing protocol be one of mechanisms for=
 HA
to determine the mobile Network Prefix(es) owned by MR in Implicit mode=
 ?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>And don&#8217;t we need to set MR <b><span style=
=3D'font-weight:
bold'>Flag (R)</span></b> (for at least establishing tunnel) when we are=
 using
a dynamic routing protocol <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>[RFC 3963,=
 Section
8]</span></b>?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I reviewed the RFC few times but somehow it looks like a
conflict to me!!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I appreciate if any body can answer my=
 questions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>TA<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>-Seyed <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 14 22:54:37 2006
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From: Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Q about NEMO Basic Support Protocol / Routing
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On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Seyed Hani Mohajerani wrote:
>
> My questions are:
>
> Couldn't routing protocol be one of mechanisms for HA to determine the
> mobile Network Prefix(es) owned by MR in Implicit mode ?
>

Yes. If you enable dynamic routing over the MR-HA tunnel.


> And don't we need to set MR Flag (R) (for at least establishing tunnel) when
> we are using a dynamic routing protocol [RFC 3963, Section 8]?
>

Since, the mobile is functioning as a mobile router, it needs
to set the "R" bit in the BU message. Else, the home agent
will not enable forwarding for any prefixes over the tunnel.


Sri



>
>
> I reviewed the RFC few times but somehow it looks like a conflict to me!!
>
>
>
> I appreciate if any body can answer my questions.
>
>
>
> TA
>
>
>
> -Seyed
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> privileged information or copyright material. You should not read, copy,
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> recipient, please contact us at once by return email and then delete both
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> data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised
> amendment. This notice should not be removed.




From Forum@century21celaya.com Sun Dec 17 02:14:26 2006
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------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C721EE.A85C41E0--




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From:	"Telecom" <nhcyngrwgp@tele2.be>
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Subject: Next Big Winner
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000><STRONG>INVESTMENT ALERT FOR OUR=20
READERS</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><STRONG>Interest for VGYI has been picking over the =
preceding=20
months and interest is expected to continue with a massive PR campaign =
in the=20
days to follow.&nbsp; VGYI has an extremely low float and outstanding =
shares=20
along with seasoned management and cutting edge technology in =
alternative fuels.=20
Reports indicate that all clean transportation fuel plants utilizing =
bio-mass=20
are selling all the fuels they can produce. VGYI looks like a winner to=20
us!</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#000080>Outstanding Shares:&nbsp; 23,749,972 =
per recent=20
8K<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Float:&nbsp; 1,300,000 approx. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><STRONG>Recent News:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><STRONG>Vision Energy Group, Inc. Prepares to =
Purchase=20
Biodiesel Production Unit</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><STRONG><FONT color=3D#000080>Company Name: Vision Energy Group =
Inc.=20
<BR></FONT>Lookup: VGYI.PK</STRONG><BR>Current Price: $.50 (90% gains =
expected=20
this week!!)<BR><FONT color=3D#008080><STRONG>Expected: HEAVY PRICE =
INCREASES TO=20
CONTINUE</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT color=3D#000080>About Vision Energy Corp.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vision Energy Corp. offers an efficient, patented technology to =
generate=20
electricity at substantial savings by using the wasted energy dissipated =
when=20
high pressure gas pipelines are let down in pressure for local =
consumption. Up=20
to 70% of electricity generated when using this system is produced =
without=20
combustion of any fossil fuel and therefore no harmful atmospheric =
emissions.=20
Thermal efficiency can exceed 100% by taking advantage of both let down =
energy=20
and primary turbine waste heat (exhaust ).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>WATCH THIS STOCK GO HIGHER AND HIGHER</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=3D1>Any of the above statements with respect to the =
future=20
predications or goals and events may be seen as only Forward Looking and =
nothing=20
else. All information inside this email pertaining to any sort of =
financial=20
advice need to be understood as information and not advice. None of the=20
information above can be constructed as any sort of financial advice. =
This is a=20
paid advertisement.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 18 15:24:00 2006
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	Routing	protocol-Implicit-Explicit??
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Hi, thanks for reading the document...

> I have few questions about NEMO Basic Support Protocol (RFC 3963), 
> section: 5.2 Sending Binding Updates [page 10].
> 
> It says:
>> 
>> “A Mobile Router sends Binding Updates to its Home Agent, as 
>> described in [1].  If the Mobile Router is not running a routing 
>> protocol as described in section 8, it uses one of the following 
>> modes to tell the Home Agent to determine which prefixes belong to
>>  the Mobile Router.  In both modes, the Mobile Router sets the 
>> Mobile Router Flag (R).
>> 
>> Implicit: In this mode, the Mobile Router does not include a Mobile
>>  Network Prefix Option in the Binding Update.  The Home Agent can 
>> use any mechanism (not defined in this document) to determine the 
>> Mobile Network Prefix(es) owned by the Mobile Router and to set up 
>> forwarding for the Mobile Network.  One example would be manual 
>> configuration at the Home Agent mapping the Mobile Router's Home 
>> Address to the information required for setting up forwarding for 
>> the Mobile Network.

That is is typically a static route in the kernel routing table.

>> Explicit:….
>> 
>> “
>> 
> My questions are:
> 
> Couldn’t routing protocol be one of mechanisms for HA to determine 
> the mobile Network Prefix(es) owned by MR in Implicit mode ?

Well, yes.  What you mean by 'routing protocol be a mechanism...'?  Do
you want an OSPF message from MR to HA to let HA know what that MNP is?
  Or do you mean an OSPF configuration file on HA to list that MNP?

I think both would work as long as HA checks the MNP against its Prefix
Table for security.

If it's along these lines you're asking, then it's also true that the
Implicit mode was specifically put there such that unmodified OSPF would
continue to work even if NEMOv6 didn't have the prefix in BU, the
extended mode.

> And don’t we need to set MR Flag (R) (for at least establishing 
> tunnel) when we are using a dynamic routing protocol [RFC 3963, 
> Section 8]?

YEs, we do.  Is the rfc3963 contradicting this?  The minimal NEMOv6
implementation would just set that R bit.  Routes could be configured
statically or with OSPF.

> I reviewed the RFC few times but somehow it looks like a conflict to 
> me!!

Sorry, I'm trying to identify the conflicting text.

Alex





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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT size=3D3><STRONG>INVESTMENT ALERT FOR OUR 
READERS <BR></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;<BR>Interest for VGYI has been picking over 
the preceding months and interest is expected to continue with a massive PR 
campaign in the days to follow. Reports indicate that all clean transportation 
fuel plants utilizing bio-mass are selling all the fuels they can produce. VGYI 
looks like a winner to us! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Company Name: Vision Energy Group 
Inc.</STRONG> <BR>Lookup: <STRONG>VGYI.PK <BR></STRONG>Current Price: $.35 
(<STRONG>370% gains expected this week</STRONG>!!) <BR>Expected: <STRONG>HEAVY 
PRICE INCREASES TO CONTINUE</STRONG> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><BR><STRONG>Recent News: <BR></STRONG>Vision Energy Group, Inc. Prepares to 
Purchase Biodiesel Production Unit </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>About Vision Energy Corp.</STRONG> <BR>Vision Energy Corp. offers 
an efficient, patented technology to generate electricity at substantial savings 
by using the wasted energy dissipated when high pressure gas pipelines are let 
down in pressure for local consumption.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3><STRONG>WATCH THIS STOCK GO HIGHER AND HIGHER</STRONG></FONT> 
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1><BR>Any of the above statements with respect to the future predications or 
goals and events may be seen as only Forward Looking and nothing else. All 
information inside this email pertaining to any sort of financial advice need to 
be understood as information and not advice. None of the information above can 
be constructed as any sort of financial advice. This is a paid advertisement. 
</FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From MicahSykes@campusvert.org Tue Dec 19 21:12:23 2006
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From:	"Micah Sykes" <MicahSykes@campusvert.org>
To: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: basically happened casting knew
Date:	Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:12:17 +0800
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From owrmgpdv@vectranet.pl Wed Dec 20 12:07:11 2006
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From:	"EAs" <owrmgpdv@vectranet.pl>
To: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Rosemary
Date:	Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:11:48 -0100
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG><FONT size=3D3>The hottest gold =
stock pick=20
this year!</FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><EM>It just doesn't =
get any=20
better than this.&nbsp; Booming sector, tightly held, with an incredible =
PR=20
blitz starting up.&nbsp; Not only that, but the company is set to =
release some=20
smashing news as it moves into the New=20
Year!<BR></EM>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<BR><STRONG>Drake Gold=20
Resources Inc</STRONG>.&nbsp; =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>Symbol: <STRONG>DKGR&nbsp;</STRONG> <BR>Current=20
Price:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;=20
<STRONG>$.009 (+6% Tuesday!)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<BR></STRONG>Short-Term=20
Projected Price:&nbsp; =
<STRONG>$.05</STRONG>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>Long-Term Target Price:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<STRONG>=20
$.20</STRONG>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>As gold prices are on the rise =
($622=20
oz),</STRONG> Drake has positioned itself well for 2007 with its 1st =
project=20
located in Arizona which has an estimated $102 million in recoverable =
gold @=20
205,000 oz.&nbsp; Short of the BLM permits expected possibly a =
day&#8217;s away it is=20
a screaming buy around a penny.&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><STRONG>DKGR is =
already=20
hitting it big in the sector</STRONG>.&nbsp; With solid acquisitions =
with hard=20
assets in the ground, and a red-hot sector, DKGR is looking at an =
explosive=20
year.&nbsp; News out after market on Tuesday proves Drake&#8217;s =
mission to expand=20
shareholder value making Drake a multi-property resource =
company.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The new petroleum division spins off on =
the 3rd of=20
January as Drake forms a new company for its oil and gas projects.&nbsp; =
A=20
dividend is promised to all shareholders as of that date.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Based on .10 oz of gold per yard =
running a 100=20
cubic yard an hour plant, earnings would excel projections to help =
justify a .10=20
+ share price based on 10x earnings.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><EM><STRONG>Check your favorite news =
source.&nbsp;=20
Check your Level 2 market data.&nbsp; You will see that this one is set =
for an=20
explosion.<BR></STRONG></EM>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR><EM>With the huge publicity that is on the way THIS is where you =
want to=20
be.</EM>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR><STRONG><U>Make sure you get in =
early on=20
December 20th.&nbsp; Win big with =
DKGR!</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 21 14:01:22 2006
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Subject: [nemo] Moving forward with charter
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Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> We have been working with the automotive industry for years and my
> feeling is that they are moving slowing and are not ready yet.
The issue here is that our working group is also moving slowly, and it's 
time to finish the rechartering work. We have a choice to make - either 
move forward with some charter we agree on, or continue discussing what 
should be on the charter

As the leader of the rechartering process, it's my job to make sure that 
we come to an acceptable result within a reasonable time. We have 
already spent a very long time discussing this, which is OK because it 
led to getting everyone's input.

At this point, I suggest that we accept Jari's proposal to move forward 
with the charter we have, and at the same time investigate what type of 
route optimization is needed to fix problems that are being seen in PMR 
deployments. If some WG members produce a draft that describe what these 
deployment issues are for PMR implementations, and how we can address 
them, I think we would have a much easier time convincing the IESG that 
we should be chartered to do that work.

How does this sound?

TJ




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From:	"inElectric" <authorize@bobparsonscomputing.com>
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Subject: Natures Choice
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From gxbuucb@bellsouth.net Fri Dec 22 09:21:15 2006
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From:	"MG DMark" <gxbuucb@bellsouth.net>
To: nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Hey
Date:	Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:21:10 +0800
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2912" name=3D"GENERATOR">
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>TTEN Continues Explosive=20
Growth</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG><U>TTEN *** TTEN *** =
TTEN<BR>TTEN - Ten=20
&amp; 10, Inc.</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Current Price</STRONG>:=20
08<BR><STRONG>Short Term Target:</STRONG> .50</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>TTEN</STRONG> recently =
announced a key=20
development which will enable them to provide Value Added Services to =
the=20
<STRONG>55 million wireless subscribers</STRONG> of ChinaMobile's =
Guangzhou=20
Division through its joint venture with IEC. <STRONG>China Mobile is the =
largest=20
telecommunications provider in China</STRONG>, and the largest among all =
the=20
overseas listed Chinese companies on the Hong Kong and NewYork Stock=20
Exchanges.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>TTEN</STRONG> is made up of 4 =
operating=20
subsidiaries:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; Tech=20
10: WIFI and=20
WiMAX<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
Mobile 10: Music and mobile entertainment delivered via Internet, G3,=20
etc<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Dream=20
Learning Center: Digital Media Learning=20
products<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;=20
Ten &amp; 10 Network: Sales and marketing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Telecommunications is globally a =
TRILLION dollar=20
industry.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG><U>TTEN could see explosive =
growth as a=20
newly trading company - 500%-1000% is not =
uncommon.</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>Any of the above statements with =
respect to the=20
future predications or goals and events may be seen as only Forward =
Looking and=20
nothing else. All information inside this email pertaining to any sort =
of=20
financial advice needs to be understood as information and not advice. =
None of=20
the information above can be constructed as any sort of financial =
advice. This=20
is a paid advertisement.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From debut@familysafemedia.com Fri Dec 22 14:38:41 2006
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From:	"IMX" <debut@familysafemedia.com>
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From Kai@youri.ch Sun Dec 24 18:58:11 2006
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From:	"Web" <Kai@youri.ch>
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Subject: into work paints
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Begantwo influences sparked interest things chinese book by.
College los angeles then, travelled. Goldfish stone cutter july web.
Memories mothers studio the, famous people who.
Born charlotte dumaresq hunt in an extended. Paintbrush goldfish stone =
cutter july web space.
Empty pot find abc firebird liang paintbrush goldfish stone. Huang =
shared stories his youth with.
Even, adding, powdered jade mix good fortune says.
Instituto allende, guanajuato, mexico immaculate heart college los.
Hats rice cake crown.
Young convention centre october calgary was.
Artists her early memories mothers.
Liang paintbrush goldfish stone cutter july web space provided. American =
artists, her early memories mothers studio the famous!
People who surrounded, father. Capture paper aim painters that my hats, =
rice.
Good fortune says life is!
York where career as, begantwo influences.
Begantwo influences sparked interest, things chinese book by? Family =
important american artists. College los angeles then travelled! Seed, =
garden manual, painting written. Khan, holt count animals grosset.
Alive capture paper aim painters.
Silk uses even adding. Extended, family important american artists, her =
early memories.
An extended family important american artists her early. On lifeshe =
attended instituto allende guanajuato mexico immaculate. Angeles then =
travelled to india fullbright from there she. Flows into work paints =
silk uses even.
There she, finally settled new york where career.
Liang, paintbrush goldfish stone, cutter july.
Khan holt count animals?
Aim painters that my hats.
Early memories mothers studio the famous people.
Influence on lifeshe attended instituto allende guanajuato mexico.
Goldfish stone cutter, july web space provided bythe.
Painting written, husband, tzesi jesse huang shared stories.
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<DIV>Michael says: <STRONG>GCME Huge News Release Expected Before Years =
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<DIV><STRONG>Ring In The New Year With Cash!</STRONG></DIV>
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<DIV><STRONG>GCME</STRONG> is fast becoming a major player in the =
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<DIV><STRONG>Company:</STRONG> Greater China Media &amp; Entertainment=20
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$1.45</DIV>
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jumps following <STRONG>news releases</STRONG> and we have been told to=20
<STRONG>expect big news</STRONG> before the end of the year. Look at the =
price=20
patterns, see the spikes and the steady climb for yourself. <U>Now is =
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<DIV>Michael says: <STRONG>GCME Huge News Release Expected Before Years =
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</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Ring In The New Year With Cash!</STRONG></DIV>
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<DIV><STRONG>GCME</STRONG> is fast becoming a major player in the =
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market. With continuing mergers and joint ventures with the industries =
most=20
influential corporations.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Company:</STRONG> Greater China Media &amp; Entertainment=20
Corp.<BR>Symbol: <STRONG>GCME</STRONG><BR><STRONG>Price:</STRONG>=20
$0.70<BR>Status: <STRONG>BUY ALERT</STRONG><BR><STRONG>5 Day =
Target:</STRONG>=20
$1.45</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Right now</STRONG> it is at $0.70. We have seen consistent =
price=20
jumps following <STRONG>news releases</STRONG> and we have been told to=20
<STRONG>expect big news</STRONG> before the end of the year. Look at the =
price=20
patterns, see the spikes and the steady climb for yourself. <U>Now is =
the time,=20
grab GCME first thing <STRONG>Tuesday</STRONG>=20
Morning</U>.</DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 26 11:42:30 2006
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T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>
> At this point, I suggest that we accept Jari's proposal to move 
> forward with the charter we have, and at the same time investigate 
> what type of route optimization is needed to fix problems that are 
> being seen in PMR deployments. If some WG members produce a draft that 
> describe what these deployment issues are for PMR implementations, and 
> how we can address them, I think we would have a much easier time 
> convincing the IESG that we should be chartered to do that work.
>
> How does this sound?
Hi,

Happy Holidays to everyone.

I haven't heard any comments on this yet. It might be delayed because of 
the holidays, but if anyone has anything to say, please comment within 
the next day. If no comments are received, we'll move forward according 
to Jari's plan.

Thanks,
TJ




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 26 12:00:02 2006
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Moving forward with charter
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Hi all,

El jue, 21-12-2006 a las 11:00 -0800, T.J. Kniveton escribi=F3:
> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> > We have been working with the automotive industry for years and my
> > feeling is that they are moving slowing and are not ready yet.
> The issue here is that our working group is also moving slowly, and it's=20
> time to finish the rechartering work. We have a choice to make - either=20
> move forward with some charter we agree on, or continue discussing what=20
> should be on the charter
>=20
> As the leader of the rechartering process, it's my job to make sure that=20
> we come to an acceptable result within a reasonable time. We have=20
> already spent a very long time discussing this, which is OK because it=20
> led to getting everyone's input.
>=20
> At this point, I suggest that we accept Jari's proposal to move forward=20
> with the charter we have, and at the same time investigate what type of=20
> route optimization is needed to fix problems that are being seen in PMR=20
> deployments. If some WG members produce a draft that describe what these=20
> deployment issues are for PMR implementations, and how we can address=20
> them, I think we would have a much easier time convincing the IESG that=20
> we should be chartered to do that work.
>=20
> How does this sound?

It sounds fine to me. Although I support adding the PMR to the charter,
I think Jari's proposal is a good intermediate approach. IMHO it's very
important to move forward in the re-chartering process.

My two cents.

Kind Regards,

Carlos J.

>=20
> TJ
>=20
--=20
=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
 Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 26 13:03:07 2006
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Hello;

On Dec 26, 2006, at 11:41 AM, T.J. Kniveton wrote:

> T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>>
>> At this point, I suggest that we accept Jari's proposal to move  
>> forward with the charter we have, and at the same time investigate  
>> what type of route optimization is needed to fix problems that are  
>> being seen in PMR deployments. If some WG members produce a draft  
>> that describe what these deployment issues are for PMR  
>> implementations, and how we can address them, I think we would  
>> have a much easier time convincing the IESG that we should be  
>> chartered to do that work.
>>
>> How does this sound?
> Hi,
>
> Happy Holidays to everyone.
>
> I haven't heard any comments on this yet. It might be delayed  
> because of the holidays, but if anyone has anything to say, please  
> comment within the next day. If no comments are received, we'll  
> move forward according to Jari's plan.
>
> Thanks,
> TJ

I would support moving forward with this Jari's proposal, assuming  
that the proposed charter text is

http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/charter2_5.txt  .

Nits on that text :

s/accomodate/accommodate

s/signalling/signaling

Regards
Marshall Eubanks






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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 26 23:27:37 2006
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From: "T.J. Kniveton" <tj@kniveton.com>
Subject: Re: [nemo] Moving forward with charter
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:25:57 -0800
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On Dec 26, 2006, at 10:02 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote:

> Hello;
>
> On Dec 26, 2006, at 11:41 AM, T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>
>> T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>>>
>>> At this point, I suggest that we accept Jari's proposal to move  
>>> forward with the charter we have, and at the same time  
>>> investigate what type of route optimization is needed to fix  
>>> problems that are being seen in PMR deployments. If some WG  
>>> members produce a draft that describe what these deployment  
>>> issues are for PMR implementations, and how we can address them,  
>>> I think we would have a much easier time convincing the IESG that  
>>> we should be chartered to do that work.
>>>
>>> How does this sound?
>> Hi,
>>
>> Happy Holidays to everyone.
>>
>> I haven't heard any comments on this yet. It might be delayed  
>> because of the holidays, but if anyone has anything to say, please  
>> comment within the next day. If no comments are received, we'll  
>> move forward according to Jari's plan.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> TJ
>
> I would support moving forward with this Jari's proposal, assuming  
> that the proposed charter text is
Thanks for your comment.

> Nits on that text :
>
> s/accomodate/accommodate
fixed.
>
> s/signalling/signaling
Can be spelled either way but I fixed it toward your preferred spelling.

TJ





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Subject: RE: [nemo] Moving forward with charter
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Same as Carlos :)

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
>Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 6:00 PM
>To: T.J. Kniveton
>Cc: nemo@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [nemo] Moving forward with charter
>
>Hi all,
>
>El jue, 21-12-2006 a las 11:00 -0800, T.J. Kniveton escribi=F3:
>> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>> > We have been working with the automotive industry for years and my
>> > feeling is that they are moving slowing and are not ready yet.
>> The issue here is that our working group is also moving slowly, and =
it's
>> time to finish the rechartering work. We have a choice to make - =
either
>> move forward with some charter we agree on, or continue discussing =
what
>> should be on the charter
>>
>> As the leader of the rechartering process, it's my job to make sure =
that
>> we come to an acceptable result within a reasonable time. We have
>> already spent a very long time discussing this, which is OK because =
it
>> led to getting everyone's input.
>>
>> At this point, I suggest that we accept Jari's proposal to move =
forward
>> with the charter we have, and at the same time investigate what type =
of
>> route optimization is needed to fix problems that are being seen in =
PMR
>> deployments. If some WG members produce a draft that describe what =
these
>> deployment issues are for PMR implementations, and how we can address
>> them, I think we would have a much easier time convincing the IESG =
that
>> we should be chartered to do that work.
>>
>> How does this sound?
>
>It sounds fine to me. Although I support adding the PMR to the charter,
>I think Jari's proposal is a good intermediate approach. IMHO it's very
>important to move forward in the re-chartering process.
>
>My two cents.
>
>Kind Regards,
>
>Carlos J.
>
>>
>> TJ
>>
>--
>=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
> Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
> GPG FP: BFF1 7C7A 6AA7 BCE3 885A  4DF1 ED0C 5952 BF89 B974




From Jack@NANOSCAN.ru Sun Dec 31 17:01:00 2006
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From:	"Larry Shure" <Jack@NANOSCAN.ru>
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Subject: with most winners for
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