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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:03:18 -0000 (GMT)
From: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
To: "Phil Shafer" <phil@juniper.net>
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Cc: NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" writes:
>>However, in spite of this there is also a possibility that a wrong value
>>may be passed as an "xml-name", but I think this case should be correctly
>>handled by the reader of such data.
>
> If we speak in xml and you send me bad xml, the correct thing would
> be to flag it as bad xml and either let you know or kill the session
> and let someone else know (syslog).
>
> Thanks,
>  Phil

IMO, killing the session is not a good way to react on invalid XML. Client
may send valid XML, for example:

<rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
   <get-config>
       <source>
           <candidate/>
       </source>
   </get-config>
</rpc>

and as a result, if XML response has invalid structure, a session is
closed. It may be a little surprise for the client.

Regards,
Tomasz



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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  1 04:03:33 2008
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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:03:18 -0000 (GMT)
From: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Cc: NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" writes:
>>However, in spite of this there is also a possibility that a wrong value
>>may be passed as an "xml-name", but I think this case should be correctly
>>handled by the reader of such data.
>
> If we speak in xml and you send me bad xml, the correct thing would
> be to flag it as bad xml and either let you know or kill the session
> and let someone else know (syslog).
>
> Thanks,
>  Phil

IMO, killing the session is not a good way to react on invalid XML. Client
may send valid XML, for example:

<rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
   <get-config>
       <source>
           <candidate/>
       </source>
   </get-config>
</rpc>

and as a result, if XML response has invalid structure, a session is
closed. It may be a little surprise for the client.

Regards,
Tomasz



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Please direct any additional queries to: communications@s3group.com.
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  1 04:10:59 2008
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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:10:49 -0000 (GMT)
From: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] test-option in edit-config operation
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>> I changed my mind about removing this knob.
>> I forgot about test-only.  The default should
>> be set, since that is the right thing for candidate,
>> and the same as test-then-set for running.
>
> Maybe the default should have been 'set', for consistency reasons.
>
> But I don't think that this is a bug, so we should not change it in
> 4741bis.
>

Each specification should be very consistent and it's a good time for
improvements as the 4741bis is on the desk.

> /martin
>

Tomasz



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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:10:49 -0000 (GMT)
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>> I changed my mind about removing this knob.
>> I forgot about test-only.  The default should
>> be set, since that is the right thing for candidate,
>> and the same as test-then-set for running.
>
> Maybe the default should have been 'set', for consistency reasons.
>
> But I don't think that this is a bug, so we should not change it in
> 4741bis.
>

Each specification should be very consistent and it's a good time for
improvements as the 4741bis is on the desk.

> /martin
>

Tomasz



The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s).
Please direct any additional queries to: communications@s3group.com.
Thank You.
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Registered Office: South County Business Park, Leopardstown, Dublin 18
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To: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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"Tomasz Mikolajczyk" writes:
>and as a result, if XML response has invalid structure, a session is
>closed. It may be a little surprise for the client.

If a client has a protocol issue, one would expect the session to
be terminated.  If a client has a content issue, one would expect
to receive an error.

The question is: which case does invalid XML belong in.  Since the
protocol is encoded in XML, I see invalid XML as a serious client
side issue from which the server cannot reasonable recover.

So I would consider this a protocol error and terminate the session.
This allows the application developer to notice the error and fix
it, without expecting the server to divine the client's intent.

Thanks,
 Phil
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"Tomasz Mikolajczyk" writes:
>and as a result, if XML response has invalid structure, a session is
>closed. It may be a little surprise for the client.

If a client has a protocol issue, one would expect the session to
be terminated.  If a client has a content issue, one would expect
to receive an error.

The question is: which case does invalid XML belong in.  Since the
protocol is encoded in XML, I see invalid XML as a serious client
side issue from which the server cannot reasonable recover.

So I would consider this a protocol error and terminate the session.
This allows the application developer to notice the error and fix
it, without expecting the server to divine the client's intent.

Thanks,
 Phil
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] :candidate vs :writable-running
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I read at http://www.netconfcentral.com/netconf_docs about candidate
>> configuration that:
>
> [...]
>
>> There is also written that:
>> "Agent platforms which support the :candidate capability usually do not
>> also support the :writable-running  capability, since mixing direct
>> edits to <running/>  would defeat the purpose of using this scratchpad
>> database to collect and validate changes before applying them."
>
> I don't know about others, but I do know that many (most?) of our
> customers have both :candidate and :writable-running.  By having both,
> you give the choice to the client application - either make sure
> you're alone and work with the candidate or edit running directly.
> Some changes might be easier to just edit to running.

I absolutely agree.

>
>> Another point is that RFC 4741 says that all the changes in the
>> candidate configuration have to be committed, otherwise running must
>> remain unchanged. What if during commit a connection with the device
>> would be broken, for example somebody cut the cable? How are we going to
>> tell the device that a kind of rollback have to be done?
>
> 4741 specifies what the server MUST do.  *How* it is done is up to the
> implementation.

Yes, but generally management layer cannot support transactions on its
own. In other words it cannot be said that a management layer supports
transaction unless managed device does it also, or is able to deal with
kind of situations described above. So we have to understand clearly what
support for :candidate or :rollback-on-error capabilities means in
reality, before we announce it.

> /martin
>

Tomasz



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Subject: Re: [Netconf] :candidate vs :writable-running
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I read at http://www.netconfcentral.com/netconf_docs about candidate
>> configuration that:
>
> [...]
>
>> There is also written that:
>> "Agent platforms which support the :candidate capability usually do not
>> also support the :writable-running  capability, since mixing direct
>> edits to <running/>  would defeat the purpose of using this scratchpad
>> database to collect and validate changes before applying them."
>
> I don't know about others, but I do know that many (most?) of our
> customers have both :candidate and :writable-running.  By having both,
> you give the choice to the client application - either make sure
> you're alone and work with the candidate or edit running directly.
> Some changes might be easier to just edit to running.

I absolutely agree.

>
>> Another point is that RFC 4741 says that all the changes in the
>> candidate configuration have to be committed, otherwise running must
>> remain unchanged. What if during commit a connection with the device
>> would be broken, for example somebody cut the cable? How are we going to
>> tell the device that a kind of rollback have to be done?
>
> 4741 specifies what the server MUST do.  *How* it is done is up to the
> implementation.

Yes, but generally management layer cannot support transactions on its
own. In other words it cannot be said that a management layer supports
transaction unless managed device does it also, or is able to deal with
kind of situations described above. So we have to understand clearly what
support for :candidate or :rollback-on-error capabilities means in
reality, before we announce it.

> /martin
>

Tomasz



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Please direct any additional queries to: communications@s3group.com.
Thank You.
Silicon and Software Systems Limited. Registered in Ireland no. 378073.
Registered Office: South County Business Park, Leopardstown, Dublin 18
_______________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:33:30 -0000 (GMT)
From: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
To: "Andy Bierman" <andy@netconfcentral.com>
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Cc: NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] :candidate vs :writable-running
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Andy Bierman wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>> Andy Bierman wrote:
>>> Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I read at http://www.netconfcentral.com/netconf_docs about candidate
>> configuration that:
>>>> "When ready, the manager can use the <commit>  operation to activate
>> the
>>>> changes embodied in the <candidate/> database, and make them part of
>> the
>>>> <running/> configuration. This also clears out the <candidate/>
>> database and leaves it ready for the next use."
>>>> Could you point me to a relevant section in RFC 4741 that candidate
>>>> has
>> to be cleared after commit?
>>> I will fix that text.
>>> I really meant to say that the 'lockability' of the
>>> candidate is reestablished.  As you know, a lock operation
>>> must fail if the candidate has any changes in it at all.
>>
>> Yes, I know. Section 7.5 says that the lock must fail if "The target
>> configuration is <candidate>, it has already been modified, and these
>> changes have not been committed or rolled back."
>>
>>> Once a commit or discard-changes is done, the contents
>>> of candidate are conceptually equal to the running config.
>>> I will call this the 'lock-available' state instead of 'cleared', which
>> implies 'emptied'.
>>
>> What does it mean "conceptually equal" to the running config? Could you
>> explain more?
>>
>
> has the same config=true nodes

You cannot be sure about that. What if one device's parameters depends on
another. In this case running may not be equal to candidate.

>>>> There is also written that:
>>>> "Agent platforms which support the :candidate capability usually do
>>>> not
>> also support the :writable-running  capability, since mixing direct
>> edits to <running/>  would defeat the purpose of using this scratchpad
>> database to collect and validate changes before applying them." Let's
>> imagine the following situation. There is a simple device with
>> configurable interfaces. The interfaces may be added/removed or their
>> parameters can be changed (ipaddress/port/bandwidth/description etc).
>> At
>>>> the moment there is 10000 interfaces configured in the device with ids
>> 0-9999 and an administrator have to delete instance first (id=0) and
>> last (9999). How it should be performed according to the above
>>>> quotations? I see it like this:
>>>>  - lock candidate
>>>>  - lock running
>>>>  - copy running to candidate (whole 10000 instances!)
>>>>  - delete instances 0 and 9999 in the candidate
>>>>  - commit (copying the whole 9998 instances)
>>>>  - unlock running
>>>>  - unlock candidate
>>>> Is it true of am I wrong?
>>>
>>> This is an implementation detail.
>>> I suggest keeping track of what actually changes in
>>> the candidate, and when you apply the commit,
>>> process only those 'dirty' nodes.
>>
>> Consider the following scenario on a newly started device
>> (:writable-running capability is not supported):
>> 1) Session A: works on candidate configuration and creates 10 interfaces
>> (0-9)
>> 2) Session A: executes commit operation
>> 3) Session A: after commit both configuration are "conceptually equal".
>> At
>> least it means that running configuration has 10 interfaces configured
>> 4) Session A: executes close-session
>> 5) Session B: Starts. Its purpose is to remove interface 0 from the
>> running
>> 6) Session B: executes <lock> on running and candidate
>> 7) Session B: executes <get-config> on a candidate and as a result the
>> instances 0-9 appear
>> 8) in the meantime someone came to the managed device and took off one
>> of
>> the interface card, let's assume this one corresponding to the interface
>> 9
>> of the running configuration
>> 9) Session B: removes an instance 0 from the candidate
>> 10) Session B: just to check one more time executes <get-config> on
>> candidate and as a result sees interfaces 1-9
>> 11) Session B: executes <commit> operation
>> 12) Session B: executes <unlock> running and candidate
>>
>> If commit operation process only 'dirty' nodes that means that after the
>> <commit>, running configuration does not have interface 0 and 9,
>> although
>> candidate configuration before commit operation showed the instance 9.
>>
>
> There is a difference between the config data for an
> interface and the hardware card containing the interface.
> This problem is not NETCONF-specific at all.  Whether
> the config data for the missing interface disappears
> is an implementation issue at this time.
>
>
>>> For YANG commit validation, with arbitrary XPath evaluation
>>> (not the mythical hard-coded implementation described
>>> in the draft), you are probably going to want to
>>> re-run all the XPath tests on the full candidate config
>>> before the commit.
>>>
>>> Of course candidate doubles the memory required to store
>>> the config database.  That's why it's an optional capability.
>>> In order to properly perform an edit-config against the
>>> running config in a YANG database, you probably need
>>> to do a temp/partial copy of the running config
>>> to run all the XPath and unique tests.
>>>
>>> It may be hard to implement, but the agent is not
>>> allowed to permit changes to the running configuration
>>> which leave it in an invalid state.  Period.
>>> That is a fundamental principle of the running config.
>>> YANG referential integrity tests raise the bar quite a bit,
>>> but that's by design ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>> Another point is that RFC 4741 says that all the changes in the
>> candidate configuration have to be committed, otherwise running must
>> remain unchanged. What if during commit a connection with the device
>> would be broken, for example somebody cut the cable? How are we going
>> to
>>>> tell the device that a kind of rollback have to be done?
>>> You mean the session is hung?
>>> If the TCP connection doesn't break, then
>>> the operator is going to need to start a new session
>>> and kill-session the old one, caused the discard-changes
>>> operation to be executed in the old session before it terminates.
>>
>> I mean a connection between a NETCONF server and a managed device has
>> been
>> broken. Broken connection between the server and managed device does not
>> mean broken session between your NETCONF client and server. How
>> discard-changes would be invoked if there is no connection anymore with
>> the device? It means that device probably is in the invalid state
>> because
>> not all changes were committed before the connection has been broken.
>> NETCONF cannot fake transactions on its own if the device does not
>> support
>> them.
>>
>
> According to the protocol, the NETCONF server is the managed device.

Where is that written?

> Any back-end protocol you have is just an implementation detail
> to NETCONF.  But if you can no longer execute any RPC operations
> except <close-session>, you could drop the session or just
> return operation-failed for every request.

Yes, of course. But it must the device must be reverted to the state
before commit on its own. So supporting :candidate or :rollback-on-error
in any types of such management layers forces that device must be
transactional on its own.

> NETCONF has no proxy and no sub-agent protocol.  By design.
> It's complicated enough to do CM without it.
>
>>>> Tomasz
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>
>> Tomasz
>>
>>
>
>
> Andy
>

Tomasz



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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:33:30 -0000 (GMT)
From: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
To: "Andy Bierman" <andy@netconfcentral.com>
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Cc: NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] :candidate vs :writable-running
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Andy Bierman wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>> Andy Bierman wrote:
>>> Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I read at http://www.netconfcentral.com/netconf_docs about candidate
>> configuration that:
>>>> "When ready, the manager can use the <commit>  operation to activate
>> the
>>>> changes embodied in the <candidate/> database, and make them part of
>> the
>>>> <running/> configuration. This also clears out the <candidate/>
>> database and leaves it ready for the next use."
>>>> Could you point me to a relevant section in RFC 4741 that candidate
>>>> has
>> to be cleared after commit?
>>> I will fix that text.
>>> I really meant to say that the 'lockability' of the
>>> candidate is reestablished.  As you know, a lock operation
>>> must fail if the candidate has any changes in it at all.
>>
>> Yes, I know. Section 7.5 says that the lock must fail if "The target
>> configuration is <candidate>, it has already been modified, and these
>> changes have not been committed or rolled back."
>>
>>> Once a commit or discard-changes is done, the contents
>>> of candidate are conceptually equal to the running config.
>>> I will call this the 'lock-available' state instead of 'cleared', which
>> implies 'emptied'.
>>
>> What does it mean "conceptually equal" to the running config? Could you
>> explain more?
>>
>
> has the same config=true nodes

You cannot be sure about that. What if one device's parameters depends on
another. In this case running may not be equal to candidate.

>>>> There is also written that:
>>>> "Agent platforms which support the :candidate capability usually do
>>>> not
>> also support the :writable-running  capability, since mixing direct
>> edits to <running/>  would defeat the purpose of using this scratchpad
>> database to collect and validate changes before applying them." Let's
>> imagine the following situation. There is a simple device with
>> configurable interfaces. The interfaces may be added/removed or their
>> parameters can be changed (ipaddress/port/bandwidth/description etc).
>> At
>>>> the moment there is 10000 interfaces configured in the device with ids
>> 0-9999 and an administrator have to delete instance first (id=0) and
>> last (9999). How it should be performed according to the above
>>>> quotations? I see it like this:
>>>>  - lock candidate
>>>>  - lock running
>>>>  - copy running to candidate (whole 10000 instances!)
>>>>  - delete instances 0 and 9999 in the candidate
>>>>  - commit (copying the whole 9998 instances)
>>>>  - unlock running
>>>>  - unlock candidate
>>>> Is it true of am I wrong?
>>>
>>> This is an implementation detail.
>>> I suggest keeping track of what actually changes in
>>> the candidate, and when you apply the commit,
>>> process only those 'dirty' nodes.
>>
>> Consider the following scenario on a newly started device
>> (:writable-running capability is not supported):
>> 1) Session A: works on candidate configuration and creates 10 interfaces
>> (0-9)
>> 2) Session A: executes commit operation
>> 3) Session A: after commit both configuration are "conceptually equal".
>> At
>> least it means that running configuration has 10 interfaces configured
>> 4) Session A: executes close-session
>> 5) Session B: Starts. Its purpose is to remove interface 0 from the
>> running
>> 6) Session B: executes <lock> on running and candidate
>> 7) Session B: executes <get-config> on a candidate and as a result the
>> instances 0-9 appear
>> 8) in the meantime someone came to the managed device and took off one
>> of
>> the interface card, let's assume this one corresponding to the interface
>> 9
>> of the running configuration
>> 9) Session B: removes an instance 0 from the candidate
>> 10) Session B: just to check one more time executes <get-config> on
>> candidate and as a result sees interfaces 1-9
>> 11) Session B: executes <commit> operation
>> 12) Session B: executes <unlock> running and candidate
>>
>> If commit operation process only 'dirty' nodes that means that after the
>> <commit>, running configuration does not have interface 0 and 9,
>> although
>> candidate configuration before commit operation showed the instance 9.
>>
>
> There is a difference between the config data for an
> interface and the hardware card containing the interface.
> This problem is not NETCONF-specific at all.  Whether
> the config data for the missing interface disappears
> is an implementation issue at this time.
>
>
>>> For YANG commit validation, with arbitrary XPath evaluation
>>> (not the mythical hard-coded implementation described
>>> in the draft), you are probably going to want to
>>> re-run all the XPath tests on the full candidate config
>>> before the commit.
>>>
>>> Of course candidate doubles the memory required to store
>>> the config database.  That's why it's an optional capability.
>>> In order to properly perform an edit-config against the
>>> running config in a YANG database, you probably need
>>> to do a temp/partial copy of the running config
>>> to run all the XPath and unique tests.
>>>
>>> It may be hard to implement, but the agent is not
>>> allowed to permit changes to the running configuration
>>> which leave it in an invalid state.  Period.
>>> That is a fundamental principle of the running config.
>>> YANG referential integrity tests raise the bar quite a bit,
>>> but that's by design ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>> Another point is that RFC 4741 says that all the changes in the
>> candidate configuration have to be committed, otherwise running must
>> remain unchanged. What if during commit a connection with the device
>> would be broken, for example somebody cut the cable? How are we going
>> to
>>>> tell the device that a kind of rollback have to be done?
>>> You mean the session is hung?
>>> If the TCP connection doesn't break, then
>>> the operator is going to need to start a new session
>>> and kill-session the old one, caused the discard-changes
>>> operation to be executed in the old session before it terminates.
>>
>> I mean a connection between a NETCONF server and a managed device has
>> been
>> broken. Broken connection between the server and managed device does not
>> mean broken session between your NETCONF client and server. How
>> discard-changes would be invoked if there is no connection anymore with
>> the device? It means that device probably is in the invalid state
>> because
>> not all changes were committed before the connection has been broken.
>> NETCONF cannot fake transactions on its own if the device does not
>> support
>> them.
>>
>
> According to the protocol, the NETCONF server is the managed device.

Where is that written?

> Any back-end protocol you have is just an implementation detail
> to NETCONF.  But if you can no longer execute any RPC operations
> except <close-session>, you could drop the session or just
> return operation-failed for every request.

Yes, of course. But it must the device must be reverted to the state
before commit on its own. So supporting :candidate or :rollback-on-error
in any types of such management layers forces that device must be
transactional on its own.

> NETCONF has no proxy and no sub-agent protocol.  By design.
> It's complicated enough to do CM without it.
>
>>>> Tomasz
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>
>> Tomasz
>>
>>
>
>
> Andy
>

Tomasz



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Please direct any additional queries to: communications@s3group.com.
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From: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Subject: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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The section 8.3.1 in RFC 4741 says:
"The candidate configuration may be shared among multiple sessions."

and the section 8.3.5.2 says:
" When a client fails with outstanding changes to the candidate
configuration, recovery can be difficult.  To facilitate easy recovery,
any outstanding changes are discarded when the lock is released, whether
explicitly with the <unlock> operation or implicitly from session
failure."

Even though candidate may be shared, it's impossible that a session A
prepares a part of candidate configuration, taking advantage of the
locking mechanism, and later releases the lock (no commit) and shares
result's of its work with a session B that may want to complete the
candidate and perform <commit>. According to the RFC, as the result of the
<unlock> operation performed by session A, any outstanding changes must be
discarded when the lock is released. IMO, it's a serious limitation.

Another point, what does it mean "discarded?
1) the state of the <candidate> must be the same as before <lock>
2) resetting the candidate configuration with the content of the running
   configuration (like in <discard-changes> operation)

If the 2nd is true, that means that just only <lock/> and <unlock/>
operations on an empty candidate configuration, cause that after all the
candidate's content magically changes.

Tomasz



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From: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Subject: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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The section 8.3.1 in RFC 4741 says:
"The candidate configuration may be shared among multiple sessions."

and the section 8.3.5.2 says:
" When a client fails with outstanding changes to the candidate
configuration, recovery can be difficult.  To facilitate easy recovery,
any outstanding changes are discarded when the lock is released, whether
explicitly with the <unlock> operation or implicitly from session
failure."

Even though candidate may be shared, it's impossible that a session A
prepares a part of candidate configuration, taking advantage of the
locking mechanism, and later releases the lock (no commit) and shares
result's of its work with a session B that may want to complete the
candidate and perform <commit>. According to the RFC, as the result of the
<unlock> operation performed by session A, any outstanding changes must be
discarded when the lock is released. IMO, it's a serious limitation.

Another point, what does it mean "discarded?
1) the state of the <candidate> must be the same as before <lock>
2) resetting the candidate configuration with the content of the running
   configuration (like in <discard-changes> operation)

If the 2nd is true, that means that just only <lock/> and <unlock/>
operations on an empty candidate configuration, cause that after all the
candidate's content magically changes.

Tomasz



The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s).
Please direct any additional queries to: communications@s3group.com.
Thank You.
Silicon and Software Systems Limited. Registered in Ireland no. 378073.
Registered Office: South County Business Park, Leopardstown, Dublin 18
_______________________________________________
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I do support the draft-chisholm-netconf-not-content-00.txt, but clearly
this goes beyond a minimal but aims at a comprehensive approach.  I can
see the reasoning that we should not distract the working group and
focus only on one thing at a time.  With that in mind I do support the
decision to postpone this work.  

That being the case, I am skeptical regarding the suggestion to still
define "urgently needed" notifications now.  Besides the obvious
question which ones are urgently needed, there might be the risk that
they will result in a "special" that does not align too well with
whatever is defined later.  I'd rather have us not address notification
content at all at this point, instead of ending up with a half-solution
for some scenarios that ends up not really being helpful at all.  In
other words, I do not support a work item of "urgent" notification
content.   

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Bert Wijnen (IETF)
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 3:36 AM
To: Netconf
Subject: [Netconf] Calrification: confirm WG consensus on potential new
WGwork-item:notification

Dear Netconf WG participants,

It seems that some people who expressed their opinion in our sesion at 
IETF73
are changing their minds. And some people who did express their opinion
are
doing so again here on the mailing list.

Since we only counted the number of people in favor or against this 
work-item
and since we did NOT write down names, it becomes difficult to judge
(rough) consensus. So to make that easier, we ask EVERYONE to
express their opinion on the mailing list again, ALSO those who already
did
so at our session in Minneapolis.

Bert and Mehmet

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bert Wijnen (IETF)
To: Netconf
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:56 PM
Subject: [Netconf] confirm WG consensus on potential new WG 
work-item:notification


WG participants,

At our NetConf Session at IETF73, the people in the room expressed
strong
support for the following statements:

  - We do not want to define extensive Notification content NOW
  - We just want to define content for notifications that we URGENTLY
    need now (within the next year). That is one or two notifications
  - Less urgent notification content we can define once the NETMOD
    results become available

The WG chairs consider this to be WG consensus. If anyone on the mailing
list does not agree, please speak up before Dec 3rd 2008.  That is one
week.
We want to try and get updated charter to IESG before X-mas.

The WG chairs do not want to consider
draft-chisholm-netconf-not-content-00.txt
as a starting point. The reason being that it wants to do much more than
the
minimal approach that is expressed above.

The WG chairs will propose/draft new charter text that we will circulate
for consensus checking. Once we have such a draft text, we will also
call for volunteers to become editors of the document.

Bert and Mehmet 


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


ding: 7bit
Sender: netconf-bounces@ietf.org
Errors-To: netconf-bounces@ietf.org

I do support the draft-chisholm-netconf-not-content-00.txt, but clearly
this goes beyond a minimal but aims at a comprehensive approach.  I can
see the reasoning that we should not distract the working group and
focus only on one thing at a time.  With that in mind I do support the
decision to postpone this work.  

That being the case, I am skeptical regarding the suggestion to still
define "urgently needed" notifications now.  Besides the obvious
question which ones are urgently needed, there might be the risk that
they will result in a "special" that does not align too well with
whatever is defined later.  I'd rather have us not address notification
content at all at this point, instead of ending up with a half-solution
for some scenarios that ends up not really being helpful at all.  In
other words, I do not support a work item of "urgent" notification
content.   

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Bert Wijnen (IETF)
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 3:36 AM
To: Netconf
Subject: [Netconf] Calrification: confirm WG consensus on potential new
WGwork-item:notification

Dear Netconf WG participants,

It seems that some people who expressed their opinion in our sesion at 
IETF73
are changing their minds. And some people who did express their opinion
are
doing so again here on the mailing list.

Since we only counted the number of people in favor or against this 
work-item
and since we did NOT write down names, it becomes difficult to judge
(rough) consensus. So to make that easier, we ask EVERYONE to
express their opinion on the mailing list again, ALSO those who already
did
so at our session in Minneapolis.

Bert and Mehmet

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bert Wijnen (IETF)
To: Netconf
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:56 PM
Subject: [Netconf] confirm WG consensus on potential new WG 
work-item:notification


WG participants,

At our NetConf Session at IETF73, the people in the room expressed
strong
support for the following statements:

  - We do not want to define extensive Notification content NOW
  - We just want to define content for notifications that we URGENTLY
    need now (within the next year). That is one or two notifications
  - Less urgent notification content we can define once the NETMOD
    results become available

The WG chairs consider this to be WG consensus. If anyone on the mailing
list does not agree, please speak up before Dec 3rd 2008.  That is one
week.
We want to try and get updated charter to IESG before X-mas.

The WG chairs do not want to consider
draft-chisholm-netconf-not-content-00.txt
as a starting point. The reason being that it wants to do much more than
the
minimal approach that is expressed above.

The WG chairs will propose/draft new charter text that we will circulate
for consensus checking. Once we have such a draft text, we will also
call for volunteers to become editors of the document.

Bert and Mehmet 


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Cc: Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Calrification: confirm WG consensus on potential new
 WGwork-item:notification
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Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> I do support the draft-chisholm-netconf-not-content-00.txt, but clearly
> this goes beyond a minimal but aims at a comprehensive approach.  I can
> see the reasoning that we should not distract the working group and
> focus only on one thing at a time.  With that in mind I do support the
> decision to postpone this work.  
> 
> That being the case, I am skeptical regarding the suggestion to still
> define "urgently needed" notifications now.  Besides the obvious
> question which ones are urgently needed, there might be the risk that
> they will result in a "special" that does not align too well with
> whatever is defined later.  I'd rather have us not address notification
> content at all at this point, instead of ending up with a half-solution
> for some scenarios that ends up not really being helpful at all.  In
> other words, I do not support a work item of "urgent" notification
> content.   
> 

I do not mind postponing the work either, but I do see the options
as half-solution or kitchen sink of notifications.  Sooner or later,
we are going to want to define a constrained eventClass (enumeration),
and an unconstrained extendedEventClass (identityref).  Clearly,
a standard <config-changed> notification is better for applications
than N proprietary versions.  These 3 small pieces to the CM
picture will not likely be impacted by further refinements of
the YANG language.


> --- Alex

Andy

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Bert Wijnen (IETF)
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 3:36 AM
> To: Netconf
> Subject: [Netconf] Calrification: confirm WG consensus on potential new
> WGwork-item:notification
> 
> Dear Netconf WG participants,
> 
> It seems that some people who expressed their opinion in our sesion at 
> IETF73
> are changing their minds. And some people who did express their opinion
> are
> doing so again here on the mailing list.
> 
> Since we only counted the number of people in favor or against this 
> work-item
> and since we did NOT write down names, it becomes difficult to judge
> (rough) consensus. So to make that easier, we ask EVERYONE to
> express their opinion on the mailing list again, ALSO those who already
> did
> so at our session in Minneapolis.
> 
> Bert and Mehmet
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Bert Wijnen (IETF)
> To: Netconf
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:56 PM
> Subject: [Netconf] confirm WG consensus on potential new WG 
> work-item:notification
> 
> 
> WG participants,
> 
> At our NetConf Session at IETF73, the people in the room expressed
> strong
> support for the following statements:
> 
>   - We do not want to define extensive Notification content NOW
>   - We just want to define content for notifications that we URGENTLY
>     need now (within the next year). That is one or two notifications
>   - Less urgent notification content we can define once the NETMOD
>     results become available
> 
> The WG chairs consider this to be WG consensus. If anyone on the mailing
> list does not agree, please speak up before Dec 3rd 2008.  That is one
> week.
> We want to try and get updated charter to IESG before X-mas.
> 
> The WG chairs do not want to consider
> draft-chisholm-netconf-not-content-00.txt
> as a starting point. The reason being that it wants to do much more than
> the
> minimal approach that is expressed above.
> 
> The WG chairs will propose/draft new charter text that we will circulate
> for consensus checking. Once we have such a draft text, we will also
> call for volunteers to become editors of the document.
> 
> Bert and Mehmet 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 
> 
> 


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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  1 11:18:49 2008
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Cc: Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Calrification: confirm WG consensus on potential new
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Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> I do support the draft-chisholm-netconf-not-content-00.txt, but clearly
> this goes beyond a minimal but aims at a comprehensive approach.  I can
> see the reasoning that we should not distract the working group and
> focus only on one thing at a time.  With that in mind I do support the
> decision to postpone this work.  
> 
> That being the case, I am skeptical regarding the suggestion to still
> define "urgently needed" notifications now.  Besides the obvious
> question which ones are urgently needed, there might be the risk that
> they will result in a "special" that does not align too well with
> whatever is defined later.  I'd rather have us not address notification
> content at all at this point, instead of ending up with a half-solution
> for some scenarios that ends up not really being helpful at all.  In
> other words, I do not support a work item of "urgent" notification
> content.   
> 

I do not mind postponing the work either, but I do see the options
as half-solution or kitchen sink of notifications.  Sooner or later,
we are going to want to define a constrained eventClass (enumeration),
and an unconstrained extendedEventClass (identityref).  Clearly,
a standard <config-changed> notification is better for applications
than N proprietary versions.  These 3 small pieces to the CM
picture will not likely be impacted by further refinements of
the YANG language.


> --- Alex

Andy

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Bert Wijnen (IETF)
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 3:36 AM
> To: Netconf
> Subject: [Netconf] Calrification: confirm WG consensus on potential new
> WGwork-item:notification
> 
> Dear Netconf WG participants,
> 
> It seems that some people who expressed their opinion in our sesion at 
> IETF73
> are changing their minds. And some people who did express their opinion
> are
> doing so again here on the mailing list.
> 
> Since we only counted the number of people in favor or against this 
> work-item
> and since we did NOT write down names, it becomes difficult to judge
> (rough) consensus. So to make that easier, we ask EVERYONE to
> express their opinion on the mailing list again, ALSO those who already
> did
> so at our session in Minneapolis.
> 
> Bert and Mehmet
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Bert Wijnen (IETF)
> To: Netconf
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:56 PM
> Subject: [Netconf] confirm WG consensus on potential new WG 
> work-item:notification
> 
> 
> WG participants,
> 
> At our NetConf Session at IETF73, the people in the room expressed
> strong
> support for the following statements:
> 
>   - We do not want to define extensive Notification content NOW
>   - We just want to define content for notifications that we URGENTLY
>     need now (within the next year). That is one or two notifications
>   - Less urgent notification content we can define once the NETMOD
>     results become available
> 
> The WG chairs consider this to be WG consensus. If anyone on the mailing
> list does not agree, please speak up before Dec 3rd 2008.  That is one
> week.
> We want to try and get updated charter to IESG before X-mas.
> 
> The WG chairs do not want to consider
> draft-chisholm-netconf-not-content-00.txt
> as a starting point. The reason being that it wants to do much more than
> the
> minimal approach that is expressed above.
> 
> The WG chairs will propose/draft new charter text that we will circulate
> for consensus checking. Once we have such a draft text, we will also
> call for volunteers to become editors of the document.
> 
> Bert and Mehmet 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  1 12:20:32 2008
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To: tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Hi,

"Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
> Even though candidate may be shared, it's impossible that a session A
> prepares a part of candidate configuration, taking advantage of the
> locking mechanism, and later releases the lock (no commit) and shares
> result's of its work with a session B that may want to complete the
> candidate and perform <commit>. According to the RFC, as the result of the
> <unlock> operation performed by session A, any outstanding changes must be
> discarded when the lock is released. IMO, it's a serious limitation.

Yes.  If you want the other behavior, you can use <partial-lock>.

> Another point, what does it mean "discarded?
> 1) the state of the <candidate> must be the same as before <lock>
> 2) resetting the candidate configuration with the content of the running
>    configuration (like in <discard-changes> operation)

It means 2 (it should be clarified in 4741bis).

> If the 2nd is true, that means that just only <lock/> and <unlock/>
> operations on an empty candidate configuration, cause that after all the
> candidate's content magically changes.

Yes.  This is only an issue if the box supports :candidate and
:writable-running.


/martin
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  1 12:20:32 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Hi,

"Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
> Even though candidate may be shared, it's impossible that a session A
> prepares a part of candidate configuration, taking advantage of the
> locking mechanism, and later releases the lock (no commit) and shares
> result's of its work with a session B that may want to complete the
> candidate and perform <commit>. According to the RFC, as the result of the
> <unlock> operation performed by session A, any outstanding changes must be
> discarded when the lock is released. IMO, it's a serious limitation.

Yes.  If you want the other behavior, you can use <partial-lock>.

> Another point, what does it mean "discarded?
> 1) the state of the <candidate> must be the same as before <lock>
> 2) resetting the candidate configuration with the content of the running
>    configuration (like in <discard-changes> operation)

It means 2 (it should be clarified in 4741bis).

> If the 2nd is true, that means that just only <lock/> and <unlock/>
> operations on an empty candidate configuration, cause that after all the
> candidate's content magically changes.

Yes.  This is only an issue if the box supports :candidate and
:writable-running.


/martin
_______________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 22:51:03 -0000 (GMT)
From: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] filtering notification streams
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Section 3.4 from the RFC 5277 shows in the XSD schema that the <streams>
>> element MUST appear always once and the <stream> element MUST appear at
>> least once, because NETCONF server has to define always at least
>> "NETCONF"
>> stream. What in your opinion a server should return as a response for
>> the following request:
>>
>> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <get>
>>         <filter type="subtree">
>>             <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
>>                 <streams/>
>>                 <streams/>
>>             </netconf>
>>         </filter>
>>     </get>
>> </rpc>]]>]]>
>
> The server should return the streams subtree, either once or twice.
> It is a bit unlcear if the "filter output" is supposed to be a proFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  1 14:51:15 2008
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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 22:51:03 -0000 (GMT)
From: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] filtering notification streams
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Section 3.4 from the RFC 5277 shows in the XSD schema that the <streams>
>> element MUST appear always once and the <stream> element MUST appear at
>> least once, because NETCONF server has to define always at least
>> "NETCONF"
>> stream. What in your opinion a server should return as a response for
>> the following request:
>>
>> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <get>
>>         <filter type="subtree">
>>             <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
>>                 <streams/>
>>                 <streams/>
>>             </netconf>
>>         </filter>
>>     </get>
>> </rpc>]]>]]>
>
> The server should return the streams subtree, either once or twice.
> It is a bit unlcear if the "filter output" is supposed to beper
> set or not.  Since it is a subtree filter, it should not return an
> error.

But the rules have to be clear. What in your opinion should return the
server for the following request based on examples from RFC 4741 section
6.4:

<rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
    <get-config>
        <source>
            <running/>
        </source>
        <filter type="subtree">
            <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
                <users>
                    <name>root</name>
                    <name/>
                </users>
            </top>
         </filter>
    </get-config>
</rpc>

Is the second occurrence of the "name" should overwrite the first one?

>> Another point. The RFC says in the section 3.2.5.1:
>>
>> "Available event streams for the requesting session are returned in the
>> reply
>> containing the <name> and <description> elements, where the <name>
>> element is mandatory, and its value is unique within the scope of a
>> NETCONF
>> server.  An empty reply is returned if there are no available event
>> streams, due to user-specified filters on the <get> operation."
>>
>> My comments to this:
>> 1) The "replaySupport" node is also mandatory according to the schema
>> 2) Seems that the empty reply doesn't match the schema
>
> The schema describes the conceptual data store, not the PUDs.

It's obvious that is impossible to describe a NETCONF request and response
PDUs, that always differ one another, using the same schema. But it's not
a problem with the XSD limitations.

> /martin
>

Tomasz



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 a proper
> set or not.  Since it is a subtree filter, it should not return an
> error.

But the rules have to be clear. What in your opinion should return the
server for the following request based on examples from RFC 4741 section
6.4:

<rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
    <get-config>
        <source>
            <running/>
        </source>
        <filter type="subtree">
            <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
                <users>
                    <name>root</name>
                    <name/>
                </users>
            </top>
         </filter>
    </get-config>
</rpc>

Is the second occurrence of the "name" should overwrite the first one?

>> Another point. The RFC says in the section 3.2.5.1:
>>
>> "Available event streams for the requesting session are returned in the
>> reply
>> containing the <name> and <description> elements, where the <name>
>> element is mandatory, and its value is unique within the scope of a
>> NETCONF
>> server.  An empty reply is returned if there are no available event
>> streams, due to user-specified filters on the <get> operation."
>>
>> My comments to this:
>> 1) The "replaySupport" node is also mandatory according to the schema
>> 2) Seems that the empty reply doesn't match the schema
>
> The schema describes the conceptual data store, not the PUDs.

It's obvious that is impossible to describe a NETCONF request and response
PDUs, that always differ one another, using the same schema. But it's not
a problem with the XSD limitations.

> /martin
>

Tomasz



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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  1 15:12:39 2008
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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 23:12:29 -0000 (GMT)
From: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Cc: NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" writes:
>>and as a result, if XML response has invalid structure, a session is
>>closed. It may be a little surprise for the client.
>
> If a client has a protocol issue, one would expect the session to
> be terminated.  If a client has a content issue, one would expect
> to receive an error.
>
> The question is: which case does invalid XML belong in.  Since the
> protocol is encoded in XML, I see invalid XML as a serious client
> side issue from which the server cannot reasonable recover.
>
> So I would consider this a protocol error and terminate the session.
> This allows the application developer to notice the error and fix
> it, without expecting the server to divine the client's intent.

Handling invalid XML sent by a client is no a big deal. The XML parser
automatically detects it and the rpc-error describing exactly a reason
(pointing to the error position in the request) may be enough to notice
the client. Worse if server sends invalid XML, and it may be treated as a
bug in the server and means for example wrong translation of the cli names
into xml names (that you mentioned in your post earlier).

> Thanks,
>  Phil
>

Tomasz



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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 23:12:29 -0000 (GMT)
From: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Cc: NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" writes:
>>and as a result, if XML response has invalid structure, a session is
>>closed. It may be a little surprise for the client.
>
> If a client has a protocol issue, one would expect the session to
> be terminated.  If a client has a content issue, one would expect
> to receive an error.
>
> The question is: which case does invalid XML belong in.  Since the
> protocol is encoded in XML, I see invalid XML as a serious client
> side issue from which the server cannot reasonable recover.
>
> So I would consider this a protocol error and terminate the session.
> This allows the application developer to notice the error and fix
> it, without expecting the server to divine the client's intent.

Handling invalid XML sent by a client is no a big deal. The XML parser
automatically detects it and the rpc-error describing exactly a reason
(pointing to the error position in the request) may be enough to notice
the client. Worse if server sends invalid XML, and it may be treated as a
bug in the server and means for example wrong translation of the cli names
into xml names (that you mentioned in your post earlier).

> Thanks,
>  Phil
>

Tomasz



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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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Going back and re-reading RFC4741, section 4, I would have to agree with
Phil;
however, like a few others, I have used the ]]>]]> for my framing. 
It allows me  to decouple my SSH layer from my Netconf layer and get
better
performance and modularity, and allows my sessions to survive a bad XML
request.

If we use the XML tags for framing we will end up with a more complex
state machine
handling the SSH character interrupts. At a minimum you would have to
handle the tags
{</rpc>, <rpc ...../> </rpc-reply>, <rpc-reply ... /> } as well as the
nesting.
It is the nesting which is the problem 
<rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
   <rpc xmlns="rpc.com" rpc="rpc"><rpc:rpc xmlns:rpc="rpc-reply.com"
rpc:rpc="rpc">rpc</rpc:rpc></rpc>
</rpc>
unlikely, but possible inside some data model we carry, 
which requires a fairly complex state machine to determine the framing.
Should we reserve "rpc" and "rpc-reply" so they can't be embedded inside
the message ?

It also requires session hangup on bad XML, which would surprise me if I
were a user.
I would rather the Netconf server give me an error response to indicate
bad XML and where/why
the XML is bad rather than just hangup. It would be a real pain for my
users to have to
turn on debuging on their network boxes to diagnose XML framing errors.

James.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org 
> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phil Shafer
> Sent: Tuesday, 2 December 2008 12:24 AM
> To: Tomasz Mikolajczyk
> Cc: NETCONF
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
> 
> "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" writes:
> >and as a result, if XML response has invalid structure, a session is
> >closed. It may be a little surprise for the client.
> 
> If a client has a protocol issue, one would expect the session to
> be terminated.  If a client has a content issue, one would expect
> to receive an error.
> 
> The question is: which case does invalid XML belong in.  Since the
> protocol is encoded in XML, I see invalid XML as a serious client
> side issue from which the server cannot reasonable recover.
> 
> So I would consider this a protocol error and terminate the session.
> This allows the application developer to notice the error and fix
> it, without expecting the server to divine the client's intent.
> 
> Thanks,
>  Phil
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 
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Going back and re-reading RFC4741, section 4, I would have to agree with
Phil;
however, like a few others, I have used the ]]>]]> for my framing. 
It allows me  to decouple my SSH layer from my Netconf layer and get
better
performance and modularity, and allows my sessions to survive a bad XML
request.

If we use the XML tags for framing we will end up with a more complex
state machine
handling the SSH character interrupts. At a minimum you would have to
handle the tags
{</rpc>, <rpc ...../> </rpc-reply>, <rpc-reply ... /> } as well as the
nesting.
It is the nesting which is the problem 
<rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
   <rpc xmlns="rpc.com" rpc="rpc"><rpc:rpc xmlns:rpc="rpc-reply.com"
rpc:rpc="rpc">rpc</rpc:rpc></rpc>
</rpc>
unlikely, but possible inside some data model we carry, 
which requires a fairly complex state machine to determine the framing.
Should we reserve "rpc" and "rpc-reply" so they can't be embedded inside
the message ?

It also requires session hangup on bad XML, which would surprise me if I
were a user.
I would rather the Netconf server give me an error response to indicate
bad XML and where/why
the XML is bad rather than just hangup. It would be a real pain for my
users to have to
turn on debuging on their network boxes to diagnose XML framing errors.

James.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org 
> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phil Shafer
> Sent: Tuesday, 2 December 2008 12:24 AM
> To: Tomasz Mikolajczyk
> Cc: NETCONF
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
> 
> "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" writes:
> >and as a result, if XML response has invalid structure, a session is
> >closed. It may be a little surprise for the client.
> 
> If a client has a protocol issue, one would expect the session to
> be terminated.  If a client has a content issue, one would expect
> to receive an error.
> 
> The question is: which case does invalid XML belong in.  Since the
> protocol is encoded in XML, I see invalid XML as a serious client
> side issue from which the server cannot reasonable recover.
> 
> So I would consider this a protocol error and terminate the session.
> This allows the application developer to notice the error and fix
> it, without expecting the server to divine the client's intent.
> 
> Thanks,
>  Phil
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] :candidate vs :writable-running
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Hi,
> >> Another point is that RFC 4741 says that all the changes in the
> >> candidate configuration have to be committed, otherwise running 
> must>> remain unchanged. What if during commit a connection with 
> the device
> >> would be broken, for example somebody cut the cable? How are we 
> going to
> >> tell the device that a kind of rollback have to be done?
> >
> > 4741 specifies what the server MUST do.  *How* it is done is up 
> to the
> > implementation.
> 
> Yes, but generally management layer cannot support transactions on its
> own. In other words it cannot be said that a management layer supports
> transaction unless managed device does it also, or is able to deal 
> withkind of situations described above. So we have to understand 
> clearly what
> support for :candidate or :rollback-on-error capabilities means in
> reality, before we announce it.
> 
> > /martin
> >
> 
> Tomasz
> 
> 
I think there exists a way that NETCONF session know underlying connection is invalid. So synchronizing candidate with running datastore can be triggered in this case.
Am I missing something?

washam
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From: Washam Fan <washam.fan@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] :candidate vs :writable-running
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Hi,
> >> Another point is that RFC 4741 says that all the changes in the
> >> candidate configuration have to be committed, otherwise running 
> must>> remain unchanged. What if during commit a connection with 
> the device
> >> would be broken, for example somebody cut the cable? How are we 
> going to
> >> tell the device that a kind of rollback have to be done?
> >
> > 4741 specifies what the server MUST do.  *How* it is done is up 
> to the
> > implementation.
> 
> Yes, but generally management layer cannot support transactions on its
> own. In other words it cannot be said that a management layer supports
> transaction unless managed device does it also, or is able to deal 
> withkind of situations described above. So we have to understand 
> clearly what
> support for :candidate or :rollback-on-error capabilities means in
> reality, before we announce it.
> 
> > /martin
> >
> 
> Tomasz
> 
> 
I think there exists a way that NETCONF session know underlying connection is invalid. So synchronizing candidate with running datastore can be triggered in this case.
Am I missing something?

washam
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  1 23:28:01 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] filtering notification streams
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"Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > The server should return the streams subtree, either once or twice.
> > It is a bit unlcear if the "filter output" is supposed to be a proper
> > set or not.  Since it is a subtree filter, it should not return an
> > error.
> 
> But the rules have to be clear.

Of course.  This should be clarified in 4741bis.

> What in your opinion should return the
> server for the following request based on examples from RFC 4741 section
> 6.4:
> 
> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>     <get-config>
>         <source>
>             <running/>
>         </source>
>         <filter type="subtree">
>             <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
>                 <users>
>                     <name>root</name>
>                     <name/>
>                 </users>
>             </top>
>          </filter>
>     </get-config>
> </rpc>
> 
> Is the second occurrence of the "name" should overwrite the first one?

I think you meant that the request should be:

  <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
      <get-config>
          <source>
              <running/>
          </source>
          <filter type="subtree">
              <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
                  <users>
                    <user>
                      <name>root</name>
                      <name/>
     From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  1 23:28:01 2008
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"Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > The server should return the streams subtree, either once or twice.
> > It is a bit unlcear if the "filter output" is supposed to be a proper
> > set or not.  Since it is a subtree filter, it should not return an
> > error.
> 
> But the rules have to be clear.

Of course.  This should be clarified in 4741bis.

> What in your opinion should return the
> server for the following request based on examples from RFC 4741 section
> 6.4:
> 
> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>     <get-config>
>         <source>
>             <running/>
>         </source>
>         <filter type="subtree">
>             <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
>                 <users>
>                     <name>root</name>
>                     <name/>
>                 </users>
>             </top>
>          </filter>
>     </get-config>
> </rpc>
> 
> Is the second occurrence of the "name" should overwrite the first one?

I think you meant that the request should be:

  <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
      <get-config>
          <source>
              <running/>
          </source>
          <filter type="subtree">
              <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
                  <users>
                    <user>
                      <name>root</name>
                      <name/>               </user>
                  </users>
              </top>
           </filter>
      </get-config>
  </rpc>

The fist "name" is a content match node, which means that the "user"s
with the name "root" are selected.  The second "name" is a selection
node, which means that from the users with the name "root", only the
"name" element is selected (the other siblings are suppressed), so
assuming that there is a user called "root", you'd get:

  <rpc-reply xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"
             message-id="101">
    <data>
      <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
        <users>
          <user>
            <name>root</name>
          </user>
        </users>
      </top>
    </data>


/martin
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                    </user>
                  </users>
              </top>
           </filter>
      </get-config>
  </rpc>

The fist "name" is a content match node, which means that the "user"s
with the name "root" are selected.  The second "name" is a selection
node, which means that from the users with the name "root", only the
"name" element is selected (the other siblings are suppressed), so
assuming that there is a user called "root", you'd get:

  <rpc-reply xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"
             message-id="101">
    <data>
      <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
        <users>
          <user>
            <name>root</name>
          </user>
        </users>
      </top>
    </data>


/martin
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Hi James,

"James Balestriere (jbalestr)" <jbalestr@cisco.com> wrote:
> Going back and re-reading RFC4741, section 4, I would have to agree with
> Phil;

Which words in section 4 are you referring to?

One sentence that I guess can be interpreted this way is

   The <rpc-reply> message is sent in response to an <rpc> operation.

So what is an "<rpc> operation" - specifically, does it cover broken
XML?  Is this an <rpc> operation:

  ]]>]]>
  <rpc>
    <reboot/>
  ]]>]]>

it's invalid XML obviously, and it doesn't have the message-id
attribute.  What about this:

  ]]>]]>
  <get/>
  ]]>]]>

where the <rpc> element is missing.

Do you expect a <rpc-reply> is this case?


/martin
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Hi James,

"James Balestriere (jbalestr)" <jbalestr@cisco.com> wrote:
> Going back and re-reading RFC4741, section 4, I would have to agree with
> Phil;

Which words in section 4 are you referring to?

One sentence that I guess can be interpreted this way is

   The <rpc-reply> message is sent in response to an <rpc> operation.

So what is an "<rpc> operation" - specifically, does it cover broken
XML?  Is this an <rpc> operation:

  ]]>]]>
  <rpc>
    <reboot/>
  ]]>]]>

it's invalid XML obviously, and it doesn't have the message-id
attribute.  What about this:

  ]]>]]>
  <get/>
  ]]>]]>

where the <rpc> element is missing.

Do you expect a <rpc-reply> is this case?


/martin
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  1 23:58:47 2008
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Hi,

Washam Fan <washam.fan@huawei.com> wrote:
> I think there exists a way that NETCONF session know underlying connection is
> invalid. So synchronizing candidate with running datastore can be triggered in
> this case.
> Am I missing something?

I think Tomasz (correct me if I'm wrong) refers to a case where the
NETCONF server function is implemented as two separate entities - a
NETCONF stack which uses some internal mechanism to communicate with
the configuration data store, and if the configuration data store does
not support any transaction protocol, it will be difficult to
implement :rollback-on-error for example.

I think this is by design - :rollback-on-error is an optional
capability which means that devices that cannot support it does not
advertise it.  This design allows you to add basic NETCONF support to
simple or legacy devices.


/martin
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Hi,

Washam Fan <washam.fan@huawei.com> wrote:
> I think there exists a way that NETCONF session know underlying connection is
> invalid. So synchronizing candidate with running datastore can be triggered in
> this case.
> Am I missing something?

I think Tomasz (correct me if I'm wrong) refers to a case where the
NETCONF server function is implemented as two separate entities - a
NETCONF stack which uses some internal mechanism to communicate with
the configuration data store, and if the configuration data store does
not support any transaction protocol, it will be difficult to
implement :rollback-on-error for example.

I think this is by design - :rollback-on-error is an optional
capability which means that devices that cannot support it does not
advertise it.  This design allows you to add basic NETCONF support to
simple or legacy devices.


/martin
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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 In Section 1.1 we have 
 The RPC layer provides a simple, transport-independent framing
       mechanism for encoding RPCs.  Section 4 documents this protocol.

Section 4 goeson to say,
NETCONF  peers use <rpc> and <rpc-reply> elements to provide transport
   protocol-independent framing of NETCONF requests and responses.

The keyword is "framing"
SSH itself has no framing definition, so from reading all this it
implies 
that NETCONF  must be providing the framing. Nowhere in RFC4741 do I see
 ]]>]]> explicitly called out as the framing delimiter. 

My preference is to have ]]>]]> defined as the explicit framing
delimiter 
in the absence of transport  defined framing.

All your examples are very good and higlight why you would want to use 
]]>]]> instead of relying on the XML framing.
You should add the additional use case
<rpc message-id="101" > 
  <wrong>
</rpc> 
Is it even valid to use the message-id when the XML is badly framed ?

For all these scenarios I would take advantage of the ]]>]]> and send
and <rpc-reply> to all of them because that is the only container for
rpc-error. 
If message-id can be extracted from the original XML then it can be
used. 
The example on page 14 shows that message-id is optional in a response.

The issue I have with using XML and a schema to define your framing
means that
if your XML does not comply with the schema then you can't properly
frame the 
message and you can't even have the sequence in the example on page 14
because
the rpc is not framed properly. The only <rpc-reply>'s would be
operational errors.

Take your examples and strip out the ]]>]]> as was suggested earlier in
this thread.
What happens with this

   <rpc>
     <reboot/>

In the absence of the </rpc>, When do you decide to stop waiting for
more characters ?
You would eventually have to timeout SSH and  hang up the session.  

What about
   <rpc>
     <reboot/>

<rpc message-id="101" > 
  <wrong>
</rpc> 


What exactly would we receive ? This is why I agree with Phil in that if
we strictly
use <rpc> as the framing we really would be better off just hanging up
the session
when the XML goes bad.

However, what I actually do is use the ]]>]]> for my framing delimter
and and send
rpc-error on unknown XML. (This NETCONF server perspective) I let the
client work
out what to do with the rpc-error. If it is a human user pasting XML
into an SSH
session then they get useful info.

James.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, 2 December 2008 6:38 PM
> To: James Balestriere (jbalestr)
> Cc: phil@juniper.net; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
> 
> Hi James,
> 
> "James Balestriere (jbalestr)" <jbalestr@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Going back and re-reading RFC4741, section 4, I would have 
> to agree with
> > Phil;
> 
> Which words in section 4 are you referring to?
> 
> One sentence that I guess can be interpreted this way is
> 
>    The <rpc-reply> message is sent in response to an <rpc> operation.
> 
> So what is an "<rpc> operation" - specifically, does it cover broken
> XML?  Is this an <rpc> operation:
> 
>   ]]>]]>
>   <rpc>
>     <reboot/>
>   ]]>]]>
> 
> it's invalid XML obviously, and it doesn't have the message-id
> attribute.  What about this:
> 
>   ]]>]]>
>   <get/>
>   ]]>]]>
> 
> where the <rpc> element is missing.
> 
> Do you expect a <rpc-reply> is this case?
> 
> 
> /martin
> 
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From: "James Balestriere (jbalestr)" <jbalestr@cisco.com>
To: "Martin Bjorklund" <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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 In Section 1.1 we have 
 The RPC layer provides a simple, transport-independent framing
       mechanism for encoding RPCs.  Section 4 documents this protocol.

Section 4 goeson to say,
NETCONF  peers use <rpc> and <rpc-reply> elements to provide transport
   protocol-independent framing of NETCONF requests and responses.

The keyword is "framing"
SSH itself has no framing definition, so from reading all this it
implies 
that NETCONF  must be providing the framing. Nowhere in RFC4741 do I see
 ]]>]]> explicitly called out as the framing delimiter. 

My preference is to have ]]>]]> defined as the explicit framing
delimiter 
in the absence of transport  defined framing.

All your examples are very good and higlight why you would want to use 
]]>]]> instead of relying on the XML framing.
You should add the additional use case
<rpc message-id="101" > 
  <wrong>
</rpc> 
Is it even valid to use the message-id when the XML is badly framed ?

For all these scenarios I would take advantage of the ]]>]]> and send
and <rpc-reply> to all of them because that is the only container for
rpc-error. 
If message-id can be extracted from the original XML then it can be
used. 
The example on page 14 shows that message-id is optional in a response.

The issue I have with using XML and a schema to define your framing
means that
if your XML does not comply with the schema then you can't properly
frame the 
message and you can't even have the sequence in the example on page 14
because
the rpc is not framed properly. The only <rpc-reply>'s would be
operational errors.

Take your examples and strip out the ]]>]]> as was suggested earlier in
this thread.
What happens with this

   <rpc>
     <reboot/>

In the absence of the </rpc>, When do you decide to stop waiting for
more characters ?
You would eventually have to timeout SSH and  hang up the session.  

What about
   <rpc>
     <reboot/>

<rpc message-id="101" > 
  <wrong>
</rpc> 


What exactly would we receive ? This is why I agree with Phil in that if
we strictly
use <rpc> as the framing we really would be better off just hanging up
the session
when the XML goes bad.

However, what I actually do is use the ]]>]]> for my framing delimter
and and send
rpc-error on unknown XML. (This NETCONF server perspective) I let the
client work
out what to do with the rpc-error. If it is a human user pasting XML
into an SSH
session then they get useful info.

James.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, 2 December 2008 6:38 PM
> To: James Balestriere (jbalestr)
> Cc: phil@juniper.net; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
> 
> Hi James,
> 
> "James Balestriere (jbalestr)" <jbalestr@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Going back and re-reading RFC4741, section 4, I would have 
> to agree with
> > Phil;
> 
> Which words in section 4 are you referring to?
> 
> One sentence that I guess can be interpreted this way is
> 
>    The <rpc-reply> message is sent in response to an <rpc> operation.
> 
> So what is an "<rpc> operation" - specifically, does it cover broken
> XML?  Is this an <rpc> operation:
> 
>   ]]>]]>
>   <rpc>
>     <reboot/>
>   ]]>]]>
> 
> it's invalid XML obviously, and it doesn't have the message-id
> attribute.  What about this:
> 
>   ]]>]]>
>   <get/>
>   ]]>]]>
> 
> where the <rpc> element is missing.
> 
> Do you expect a <rpc-reply> is this case?
> 
> 
> /martin
> 
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> Even though candidate may be shared, it's impossible that a session A
>> prepares a part of candidate configuration, taking advantage of the
>> locking mechanism, and later releases the lock (no commit) and shares
>> result's of its work with a session B that may want to complete the
>> candidate and perform <commit>. According to the RFC, as the result of the
>> <unlock> operation performed by session A, any outstanding changes must be
>> discarded when the lock is released. IMO, it's a serious limitation.
> 
> Yes.  If you want the other behavior, you can use <partial-lock>.

What is an advantage of such behavior. Could you explain usefulness of this?

>> Another point, what does it mean "discarded?
>> 1) the state of the <candidate> must be the same as before <lock>
>> 2) resetting the candidate configuration with the content of the running
>>    configuration (like in <discard-changes> operation)
> 
> It means 2 (it should be clarified in 4741bis).
> 
>> If the 2nd is true, that means that just only <lock/> and <unlock/>
>> operations on an empty candidate configuration, cause that after all the
>> candidate's content magically changes.
> 
> Yes.  This is only an issue if the box supports :candidate and
> :writable-running.

It's very illogical. Is it done on purpose or is kind of side effect? Lock and unlock operation should not have anything in common with copying
configuration. These operation should only allow or disallow editing the data.

One more thing. One session is able to forbid do a lock on candidate for another session simply by doing any change on candidate. That's also
very surprising. If a configuration is not locked any session should be able to do the changes on it.

> 
> /martin
> 

Tomasz

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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> Even though candidate may be shared, it's impossible that a session A
>> prepares a part of candidate configuration, taking advantage of the
>> locking mechanism, and later releases the lock (no commit) and shares
>> result's of its work with a session B that may want to complete the
>> candidate and perform <commit>. According to the RFC, as the result of the
>> <unlock> operation performed by session A, any outstanding changes must be
>> discarded when the lock is released. IMO, it's a serious limitation.
> 
> Yes.  If you want the other behavior, you can use <partial-lock>.

What is an advantage of such behavior. Could you explain usefulness of this?

>> Another point, what does it mean "discarded?
>> 1) the state of the <candidate> must be the same as before <lock>
>> 2) resetting the candidate configuration with the content of the running
>>    configuration (like in <discard-changes> operation)
> 
> It means 2 (it should be clarified in 4741bis).
> 
>> If the 2nd is true, that means that just only <lock/> and <unlock/>
>> operations on an empty candidate configuration, cause that after all the
>> candidate's content magically changes.
> 
> Yes.  This is only an issue if the box supports :candidate and
> :writable-running.

It's very illogical. Is it done on purpose or is kind of side effect? Lock and unlock operation should not have anything in common with copying
configuration. These operation should only allow or disallow editing the data.

One more thing. One session is able to forbid do a lock on candidate for another session simply by doing any change on candidate. That's also
very surprising. If a configuration is not locked any session should be able to do the changes on it.

> 
> /martin
> 

Tomasz

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On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 05:21:49PM +0800, James Balestriere (jbalestr) wrote:
 
> My preference is to have ]]>]]> defined as the explicit framing
> delimiter in the absence of transport defined framing.

The sequence ]]>]]> is an SSH specific framing delimiter and there is
no need to make this a feature for all transports. It espcapes me why
anymore would use ]]>]]> in the SOAP mapping or the BEEP mapping or in
other future transport mappings that preserve application layer
message boundaries.

For me, if I were to change something, I would raise the question
whether ]]>]]> can be removed from the SSH transport mapping. There
are event driven implementations that do not really need it and on the
other hand there are implementations that screw up if ]]>]]> is
received somewhere in the payload due to a lack of proper quoting
mechanisms. But strictly speaking, this should be discussed once RFC
4742 is up for revision, which is not the case yet as far as I know.
 
> This is why I agree with Phil in that if we strictly use <rpc> as
> the framing we really would be better off just hanging up the
> session when the XML goes bad.

If an implementation receives garbage but can recover framing
synchronization, an error should be generated. If an implementation
can't recover framing or attempts to recover framing fail, there is
nothing one can do other than closing the transport.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 05:21:49PM +0800, James Balestriere (jbalestr) wrote:
 
> My preference is to have ]]>]]> defined as the explicit framing
> delimiter in the absence of transport defined framing.

The sequence ]]>]]> is an SSH specific framing delimiter and there is
no need to make this a feature for all transports. It espcapes me why
anymore would use ]]>]]> in the SOAP mapping or the BEEP mapping or in
other future transport mappings that preserve application layer
message boundaries.

For me, if I were to change something, I would raise the question
whether ]]>]]> can be removed from the SSH transport mapping. There
are event driven implementations that do not really need it and on the
other hand there are implementations that screw up if ]]>]]> is
received somewhere in the payload due to a lack of proper quoting
mechanisms. But strictly speaking, this should be discussed once RFC
4742 is up for revision, which is not the case yet as far as I know.
 
> This is why I agree with Phil in that if we strictly use <rpc> as
> the framing we really would be better off just hanging up the
> session when the XML goes bad.

If an implementation receives garbage but can recover framing
synchronization, an error should be generated. If an implementation
can't recover framing or attempts to recover framing fail, there is
nothing one can do other than closing the transport.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec  2 05:17:34 2008
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Washam Fan <washam.fan@huawei.com> wrote:
>> I think there exists a way that NETCONF session know underlying connection is
>> invalid. So synchronizing candidate with running datastore can be triggered in
>> this case.
>> Am I missing something?
> 
> I think Tomasz (correct me if I'm wrong) refers to a case where the
> NETCONF server function is implemented as two separate entities - a
> NETCONF stack which uses some internal mechanism to communicate with
> the configuration data store, and if the configuration data store does
> not support any transaction protocol, it will be difficult to
> implement :rollback-on-error for example.
> 
> I think this is by design - :rollback-on-error is an optional
> capability which means that devices that cannot support it does not
> advertise it.  This design allows you to add basic NETCONF support to
> simple or legacy devices.
> 
> 
> /martin
> 

No. The same problem occurs if the device is a NETCONF server. Consider the classical situation with setting two variables:

Let's assume that we have an application that we want to manage usFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec  2 05:17:34 2008
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Washam Fan <washam.fan@huawei.com> wrote:
>> I think there exists a way that NETCONF session know underlying connection is
>> invalid. So synchronizing candidate with running datastore can be triggered in
>> this case.
>> Am I missing something?
> 
> I think Tomasz (correct me if I'm wrong) refers to a case where the
> NETCONF server function is implemented as two separate entities - a
> NETCONF stack which uses some internal mechanism to communicate with
> the configuration data store, and if the configuration data store does
> not support any transaction protocol, it will be difficult to
> implement :rollback-on-error for example.
> 
> I think this is by design - :rollback-on-error is an optional
> capability which means that devices that cannot support it does not
> advertise it.  This design allows you to add basic NETCONF support to
> simple or legacy devices.
> 
> 
> /martin
> 

No. The same problem occurs if the device is a NETCONF server. Consider the classical situation with setting two variables:

Let's assume that we have an application that we want to maning the NETCONF protocol.
The application and the NETCONF server work IN THE SAME process. The application defines two variables "x" and "y" that may be managed and the
following API functions to manage:

int getX()
int getY()
bool setX(int)
bool setY(int)

Let's imagine that we have prepared candidate configuration with the data for x and y and we would like to invoke "commit". During commit both
functions are called in the following order:
1) setX()
2) setY()

Let's assume that calling setX() function was successful but setY() function for any reasons returned an error. According to the NETCONF
standard if commit is not successfull the state of the device must be reverted to the state before commit, citing section 8.3.4.1 from RFC 4741:

"If the device is unable to commit all of the changes in the
candidate configuration datastore, then the running
configuration MUST remain unchanged."

It means that either a server must try to set the x variable to the old state or the device must have an appropriate logic to do it on its own.
Going further another problems may appear:
1) what if the setX() function reverting old x value also fails?
2) Transaction is not only connected with atomicity. What about isolation? I mean during commit, after setX() and before setY() function, the
rest of the device can see the new value of the x variable what may mean inconsistent state of the device.

Usually we cannot afford to assume that all operations will be successful.

What do you think about it? Maybe RFC 4741 instead of the word "MUST" in the cited part above should use "SHOULD TRY TO".

Tomasz


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age using the NETCONF protocol.
The application and the NETCONF server work IN THE SAME process. The application defines two variables "x" and "y" that may be managed and the
following API functions to manage:

int getX()
int getY()
bool setX(int)
bool setY(int)

Let's imagine that we have prepared candidate configuration with the data for x and y and we would like to invoke "commit". During commit both
functions are called in the following order:
1) setX()
2) setY()

Let's assume that calling setX() function was successful but setY() function for any reasons returned an error. According to the NETCONF
standard if commit is not successfull the state of the device must be reverted to the state before commit, citing section 8.3.4.1 from RFC 4741:

"If the device is unable to commit all of the changes in the
candidate configuration datastore, then the running
configuration MUST remain unchanged."

It means that either a server must try to set the x variable to the old state or the device must have an appropriate logic to do it on its own.
Going further another problems may appear:
1) what if the setX() function reverting old x value also fails?
2) Transaction is not only connected with atomicity. What about isolation? I mean during commit, after setX() and before setY() function, the
rest of the device can see the new value of the x variable what may mean inconsistent state of the device.

Usually we cannot afford to assume that all operations will be successful.

What do you think about it? Maybe RFC 4741 instead of the word "MUST" in the cited part above should use "SHOULD TRY TO".

Tomasz


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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec  2 05:46:42 2008
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Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Washam Fan <washam.fan@huawei.com> wrote:
> >> I think there exists a way that NETCONF session know underlying connection
> >> is
> >> invalid. So synchronizing candidate with running datastore can be triggered
> >> in
> >> this case.
> >> Am I missing something?
> > 
> > I think Tomasz (correct me if I'm wrong) refers to a case where the
> > NETCONF server function is implemented as two separate entities - a
> > NETCONF stack which uses some internal mechanism to communicate with
> > the configuration data store, and if the configuration data store does
> > not support any transaction protocol, it will be difficult to
> > implement :rollback-on-error for example.
> > 
> > I think this is by design - :rollback-on-error is an optional
> > capability which means that devices that cannot support it does not
> > advertise it.  This design allows you to add basic NETCONF support to
> > simple or legacy devices.
> > 
> > 
> > /martin
> > 
> 
> No. The same problem occurs if the device is a NETCONF server.

Yes of course.


> "If the device is unable to commit all of the changes in the
> candidate configuration datastore, then the running
> configuration MUST remain unchanged."

[...]

> What do you think about it? Maybe RFC 4741 instead of the word "MUST" in the
> cited part above should use "SHOULD TRY TO".

No!  Devices that cannot support :rollback-on-error should not
advertise it. 



/martin
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To: tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com
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Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] :candidate vs :writable-running
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Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Washam Fan <washam.fan@huawei.com> wrote:
> >> I think there exists a way that NETCONF session know underlying connection
> >> is
> >> invalid. So synchronizing candidate with running datastore can be triggered
> >> in
> >> this case.
> >> Am I missing something?
> > 
> > I think Tomasz (correct me if I'm wrong) refers to a case where the
> > NETCONF server function is implemented as two separate entities - a
> > NETCONF stack which uses some internal mechanism to communicate with
> > the configuration data store, and if the configuration data store does
> > not support any transaction protocol, it will be difficult to
> > implement :rollback-on-error for example.
> > 
> > I think this is by design - :rollback-on-error is an optional
> > capability which means that devices that cannot support it does not
> > advertise it.  This design allows you to add basic NETCONF support to
> > simple or legacy devices.
> > 
> > 
> > /martin
> > 
> 
> No. The same problem occurs if the device is a NETCONF server.

Yes of course.


> "If the device is unable to commit all of the changes in the
> candidate configuration datastore, then the running
> configuration MUST remain unchanged."

[...]

> What do you think about it? Maybe RFC 4741 instead of the word "MUST" in the
> cited part above should use "SHOULD TRY TO".

No!  Devices that cannot support :rollback-on-error should not
advertise it. 



/martin
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] :candidate vs :writable-running
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Washam Fan <washam.fan@huawei.com> wrote:
>>>> I think there exists a way that NETCONF session know underlying connection
>>>> is
>>>> invalid. So synchronizing candidate with running datastore can be triggered
>>>> in
>>>> this case.
>>>> Am I missing something?
>>> I think Tomasz (correct me if I'm wrong) refers to a case where the
>>> NETCONF server function is implemented as two separate entities - a
>>> NETCONF stack which uses some internal mechanism to communicate with
>>> the configuration data store, and if the configuration data store does
>>> not support any transaction protocol, it will be difficult to
>>> implement :rollback-on-error for example.
>>>
>>> I think this is by design - :rollback-on-error is an optional
>>> capability which means that devices that cannot support it does not
>>> advertise it.  This design allows you to add basic NETCONF support to
>>> simple or legacy devices.
>>>
>>>
>>> /martin
>>>
>> No. The same problem occurs if the device is a NETCONF server.
> 
> Yes of course.
> 
> 
>> "If the device is unable to commit all of the changes in the
>> candidate configuration datastore, then the running
>> configuration MUST remain unchanged."
> 
> [...]
> 
>> What do you think about it? Maybe RFC 4741 instead of the word "MUST" in the
>> cited part above should use "SHOULD TRY TO".
> 
> No!  Devices that cannot support :rollback-on-error should not
> advertise it. 

NETCONF server cannot support commit operation unless devices guarantee that ALL operations NEVER fail. However, as you know it is very
unlikely. So going further if successful commit operation cannot be guaranteed, the :candidate capability cannot be advertised. Without
:candidate capability the server may address only running configuration (and perhaps startup) and then most of the NETCONF features immediately
disappear. Remaining functionality of the protocol is not more powerful than existing well known standards.

It must be clearly said and understood what it means in reality and what a management layer expects from the devices creators, if they want the
NETCONF support. It also means that probably most of the existing devices are not prepared on its own to be managed via NETCONF.

Another question: does it make sense to define abilities for rollback and commit operations in the separate capabilities?

> 
> /martin
> 

Tomasz

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] :candidate vs :writable-running
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Washam Fan <washam.fan@huawei.com> wrote:
>>>> I think there exists a way that NETCONF session know underlying connection
>>>> is
>>>> invalid. So synchronizing candidate with running datastore can be triggered
>>>> in
>>>> this case.
>>>> Am I missing something?
>>> I think Tomasz (correct me if I'm wrong) refers to a case where the
>>> NETCONF server function is implemented as two separate entities - a
>>> NETCONF stack which uses some internal mechanism to communicate with
>>> the configuration data store, and if the configuration data store does
>>> not support any transaction protocol, it will be difficult to
>>> implement :rollback-on-error for example.
>>>
>>> I think this is by design - :rollback-on-error is an optional
>>> capability which means that devices that cannot support it does not
>>> advertise it.  This design allows you to add basic NETCONF support to
>>> simple or legacy devices.
>>>
>>>
>>> /martin
>>>
>> No. The same problem occurs if the device is a NETCONF server.
> 
> Yes of course.
> 
> 
>> "If the device is unable to commit all of the changes in the
>> candidate configuration datastore, then the running
>> configuration MUST remain unchanged."
> 
> [...]
> 
>> What do you think about it? Maybe RFC 4741 instead of the word "MUST" in the
>> cited part above should use "SHOULD TRY TO".
> 
> No!  Devices that cannot support :rollback-on-error should not
> advertise it. 

NETCONF server cannot support commit operation unless devices guarantee that ALL operations NEVER fail. However, as you know it is very
unlikely. So going further if successful commit operation cannot be guaranteed, the :candidate capability cannot be advertised. Without
:candidate capability the server may address only running configuration (and perhaps startup) and then most of the NETCONF features immediately
disappear. Remaining functionality of the protocol is not more powerful than existing well known standards.

It must be clearly said and understood what it means in reality and what a management layer expects from the devices creators, if they want the
NETCONF support. It also means that probably most of the existing devices are not prepared on its own to be managed via NETCONF.

Another question: does it make sense to define abilities for rollback and commit operations in the separate capabilities?

> 
> /martin
> 

Tomasz

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Tomasz Mikolajczyk writes:
>It's very illogical. Is it done on purpose or is kind of side effect?

These questions all relate to the model with which locks are used.
The current NETCONF model is that there are two cases.  Either the
applications treat the datastore as "owned" by one client, where
only that clients is permitted to make changes, or the datastore
is open to all applications, and these appplications can make changes
at any time.

In the first model, the lock is used to prevent other applications
from changing the config while my application is changing it.  This
model lends itself to theFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec  2 10:44:41 2008
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To: Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:37:48 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Tomasz Mikolajczyk writes:
>It's very illogical. Is it done on purpose or is kind of side effect?

These questions all relate to the model with which locks are used.
The current NETCONF model is that there are two cases.  Either the
applications treat the datastore as "owned" by one client, where
only that clients is permitted to make changes, or the datastore
is open to all applications, and these appplications can make changes
at any time.

In the first model, the lock is used to prevent other applications
from changing the config while my application is changing it.  This
model lends itself  candidate datastore, where I can make
changes, check them, record them, and/or commit them as my app sees
fit.  I can use the "confirmed commit" mechanism to ensure that my
change (and the box) are working well before releasing the lock to
allow other applications to make changes.  My changes can be logged
accurately and the responsibility for any errors can be placed at
the foot of my app.

The the second model, many applications can make changes to the
datastore without concern for their interactions.  This concern may
be addressed in out-of-band mechanisms, or could be the outcome of
the network management architecture in use by the network provider,
but no locking is needed.  This model works well with the running
datastore, where the config changes immediately affect the device
and the audit mechanism would be tailored to a single <edit-config>
payload.

Partial locking takes a hybrid approach, where the applications
aren't concerned with each other, but still want some measure of
assuredness that no one is changing the parts of the datastore the
app consider it's own.  One could view it as "trust but verify",
but IMHO it leaves the server open to long term locks that aren't
condusive to simple clients that want to perform simple operations
like "backup";  an app parked with a the partial lock prevents the
client from getting the global lock needed to be able to save the
complete config accurately.

Thanks,
 Phil
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to the candidate datastore, where I can make
changes, check them, record them, and/or commit them as my app sees
fit.  I can use the "confirmed commit" mechanism to ensure that my
change (and the box) are working well before releasing the lock to
allow other applications to make changes.  My changes can be logged
accurately and the responsibility for any errors can be placed at
the foot of my app.

The the second model, many applications can make changes to the
datastore without concern for their interactions.  This concern may
be addressed in out-of-band mechanisms, or could be the outcome of
the network management architecture in use by the network provider,
but no locking is needed.  This model works well with the running
datastore, where the config changes immediately affect the device
and the audit mechanism would be tailored to a single <edit-config>
payload.

Partial locking takes a hybrid approach, where the applications
aren't concerned with each other, but still want some measure of
assuredness that no one is changing the parts of the datastore the
app consider it's own.  One could view it as "trust but verify",
but IMHO it leaves the server open to long term locks that aren't
condusive to simple clients that want to perform simple operations
like "backup";  an app parked with a the partial lock prevents the
client from getting the global lock needed to be able to save the
complete config accurately.

Thanks,
 Phil
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Dec  3 01:16:57 2008
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Hello,

Washam Fan wrote:
> Hi,
>    global lock addressed failure scenarioes including outstanding changes to candidate datastore which was not addressed by partial-lock

We did not want to address this, as this might have surprising side effects. See 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg03995.html
We wanted a lock that is simple to understand that locks the nodes, and no side effects.

>    partial lock addressed faulure scenarioes including outstanding commit to running datastore wich was not addressed by global lock
>    How do you think about them.

This is case is common for global and partial locks. I hope Martin will add it to the 4741bis 
draft.

Balazs
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Hello,

Washam Fan wrote:
> Hi,
>    global lock addressed failure scenarioes including outstanding changes to candidate datastore which was not addressed by partial-lock

We did not want to address this, as this might have surprising side effects. See 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg03995.html
We wanted a lock that is simple to understand that locks the nodes, and no side effects.

>    partial lock addressed faulure scenarioes including outstanding commit to running datastore wich was not addressed by global lock
>    How do you think about them.

This is case is common for global and partial locks. I hope Martin will add it to the 4741bis 
draft.

Balazs
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Dec  3 04:34:45 2008
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> The server should return the streams subtree, either once or twice.
>>> It is a bit unlcear if the "filter output" is supposed to be a proper
>>> set or not.  Since it is a subtree filter, it should not return an
>>> error.
>> But the rules have to be clear.
> 
> Of course.  This should be clarified in 4741bis.
> 
>> What in your opinion should return the
>> server for the following request based on examples from RFC 4741 section
>> 6.4:
>>
>> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <get-config>
>>         <source>
>>             <running/>
>>         </source>
>>         <filter type="subtree">
>>             <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
>>                 <users>
>>                     <name>root</name>
>>                     <name/>
>>                 </users>
>>             </top>
>>          </filter>
>>     </get-config>
>> </rpc>
>>
>> Is the second occurrence of the "name" should overwrite the first one?
> 
> I think you meant tFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Dec  3 04:34:45 2008
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Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:32:41 +0100
From: Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] filtering notification streams
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> The server should return the streams subtree, either once or twice.
>>> It is a bit unlcear if the "filter output" is supposed to be a proper
>>> set or not.  Since it is a subtree filter, it should not return an
>>> error.
>> But the rules have to be clear.
> 
> Of course.  This should be clarified in 4741bis.
> 
>> What in your opinion should return the
>> server for the following request based on examples from RFC 4741 section
>> 6.4:
>>
>> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <get-config>
>>         <source>
>>             <running/>
>>         </source>
>>         <filter type="subtree">
>>             <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
>>                 <users>
>>                     <name>root</name>
>>                     <name/>
>>                 </users>
>>             </top>
>>          </filter>
>>     </get-config>
>> </rpc>
>>
>> Is the second occurrence of the "name" should overwrite the first one?
> 
> I think you meant that thhat the request should be:
> 
>   <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>       <get-config>
>           <source>
>               <running/>
>           </source>
>           <filter type="subtree">
>               <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
>                   <users>
>                     <user>
>                       <name>root</name>
>                       <name/>
>                     </user>
>                   </users>
>               </top>
>            </filter>
>       </get-config>
>   </rpc>
> 
> The fist "name" is a content match node, which means that the "user"s
> with the name "root" are selected.  The second "name" is a selection
> node, which means that from the users with the name "root", only the
> "name" element is selected (the other siblings are suppressed), so
> assuming that there is a user called "root", you'd get:
> 
>   <rpc-reply xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"
>              message-id="101">
>     <data>
>       <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
>         <users>
>           <user>
>             <name>root</name>
>           </user>
>         </users>
>       </top>
>     </data>
> 
> 
> /martin
> 

Thank you.

The section 6.2.1 from RFC 4741 says:
"If namespaces are used, then the filter output will only include elements from the specified namespace."

What about filter input? Question is, whether the server should analyze unknown elements. Assuming that the server has only NETCONF event stream
defined, how the response should look like if an unknown tag is used (i.e. a tag unspecified in the namespace), for instance:

<rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
    <get>
        <filter type="subtree">
            <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
                <streams>
                    <stream>
                        <unknown>NETCONF</unknown>
                        <description/>
                    </stream>
                </streams>
            </netconf>
        </filter>
    </get>
</rpc>]]>]]>

Is it adequate to the following request:

<rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
    <get>
        <filter type="subtree">
            <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
                <streams>
                    <stream>
                        <name>unknown</name>
                        <description/>
                    </stream>
                </streams>
            </netconf>
        </filter>
    </get>
</rpc>]]>]]>


Note that data model used for the event streams has slightly different type. It's kind of static model (xml structure is always constant) and
data models used in RFC 4741 are dynamic (xml structure depends on the content of the managed device). In the dynamic DM the generic NETCONF
server cannot predict how the DM may look like, so such "unknown_tag" at the time of the request parsing cannot be treated as unknown. In the
static model it's obvious which tags are known and unknown.

Tomasz

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e request should be:
> 
>   <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>       <get-config>
>           <source>
>               <running/>
>           </source>
>           <filter type="subtree">
>               <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
>                   <users>
>                     <user>
>                       <name>root</name>
>                       <name/>
>                     </user>
>                   </users>
>               </top>
>            </filter>
>       </get-config>
>   </rpc>
> 
> The fist "name" is a content match node, which means that the "user"s
> with the name "root" are selected.  The second "name" is a selection
> node, which means that from the users with the name "root", only the
> "name" element is selected (the other siblings are suppressed), so
> assuming that there is a user called "root", you'd get:
> 
>   <rpc-reply xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"
>              message-id="101">
>     <data>
>       <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
>         <users>
>           <user>
>             <name>root</name>
>           </user>
>         </users>
>       </top>
>     </data>
> 
> 
> /martin
> 

Thank you.

The section 6.2.1 from RFC 4741 says:
"If namespaces are used, then the filter output will only include elements from the specified namespace."

What about filter input? Question is, whether the server should analyze unknown elements. Assuming that the server has only NETCONF event stream
defined, how the response should look like if an unknown tag is used (i.e. a tag unspecified in the namespace), for instance:

<rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
    <get>
        <filter type="subtree">
            <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
                <streams>
                    <stream>
                        <unknown>NETCONF</unknown>
                        <description/>
                    </stream>
                </streams>
            </netconf>
        </filter>
    </get>
</rpc>]]>]]>

Is it adequate to the following request:

<rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
    <get>
        <filter type="subtree">
            <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
                <streams>
                    <stream>
                        <name>unknown</name>
                        <description/>
                    </stream>
                </streams>
            </netconf>
        </filter>
    </get>
</rpc>]]>]]>


Note that data model used for the event streams has slightly different type. It's kind of static model (xml structure is always constant) and
data models used in RFC 4741 are dynamic (xml structure depends on the content of the managed device). In the dynamic DM the generic NETCONF
server cannot predict how the DM may look like, so such "unknown_tag" at the time of the request parsing cannot be treated as unknown. In the
static model it's obvious which tags are known and unknown.

Tomasz

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Thank You.
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Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 14:15:26 +0100
From: Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Hi,

Assuming that the following filter:

<filter type="subtree">
    <top xmlns="namespace_a"/>
</filter>

returns the following output:

<data>
    <top xmlns="namespace_a">
        <a>
            <b>1</c>
            <c>2</c>
        </a>
        <aa>
            <bb>11</cc>
            <cc>22</cc>
        </aa>
    </top>
</data>

, and

<filter type="subtree">
    <top xmlns="namespace_x"/>
</filter>

<data>
    <top xmlns="namespace_x">
        <x>
            <y>5</y>
            <z>6</z>
        </x>
        <xx>
            <yy>55</yy>
            <zz>66</zz>
        </aa>
    </top>
</data>


I wonder how the response would look like for the following filter:

<filter type="subtree">
    <top xmlns="namespace_a" xmlns:x="namespace_x">
        <x:top/>
    </top>
</filter>

Any suggestions?

Tomasz

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From: Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Hi,

Assuming that the following filter:

<filter type="subtree">
    <top xmlns="namespace_a"/>
</filter>

returns the following output:

<data>
    <top xmlns="namespace_a">
        <a>
            <b>1</c>
            <c>2</c>
        </a>
        <aa>
            <bb>11</cc>
            <cc>22</cc>
        </aa>
    </top>
</data>

, and

<filter type="subtree">
    <top xmlns="namespace_x"/>
</filter>

<data>
    <top xmlns="namespace_x">
        <x>
            <y>5</y>
            <z>6</z>
        </x>
        <xx>
            <yy>55</yy>
            <zz>66</zz>
        </aa>
    </top>
</data>


I wonder how the response would look like for the following filter:

<filter type="subtree">
    <top xmlns="namespace_a" xmlns:x="namespace_x">
        <x:top/>
    </top>
</filter>

Any suggestions?

Tomasz

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Dec  3 08:23:39 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] multiple data models in one filter
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Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Assuming that the following filter:
>
> <filter type="subtree">
>     <top xmlns="namespace_a"/>
> </filter>
>
> returns the following output:
>
> <data>
>     <top xmlns="namespace_a">
>         <a>
>             <b>1</c>
>             <c>2</c>
>         </a>
>         <aa>
>             <bb>11</cc>
>             <cc>22</cc>
>         </aa>
>     </top>
> </data>
>
> , and
>
> <filter type="subtree">
>     <top xmlns="namespace_x"/>
> </filter>
>
> <data>
>     <top xmlns="namespace_x">
>         <x>
>             <y>5</y>
>             <z>6</z>
>         </x>
>         <xx>
>             <yy>55</yy>
>             <zz>66</zz>
>         </aa>
>     </top>
> </data>
>
>
> I wonder how the response would look like for the following filter:
>
> <filter type="subtree">
>     <top xmlns="namespace_a" xmlns:x="namespace_x">
>         <x:top/>
>     </top>
> </filter>
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>   

<filter type="subtree">
    <top xmlns="namespace_a"/>
    <x:top xmlns:x="namespace_x"/>
</filter>



> Tomasz
>   

Andy


> The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s).
> Please direct any additional queries to: communications@s3group.com.
> Thank You.
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
>
>   

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Dec  3 08:23:39 2008
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Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Assuming that the following filter:
>
> <filter type="subtree">
>     <top xmlns="namespace_a"/>
> </filter>
>
> returns the following output:
>
> <data>
>     <top xmlns="namespace_a">
>         <a>
>             <b>1</c>
>             <c>2</c>
>         </a>
>         <aa>
>             <bb>11</cc>
>             <cc>22</cc>
>         </aa>
>     </top>
> </data>
>
> , and
>
> <filter type="subtree">
>     <top xmlns="namespace_x"/>
> </filter>
>
> <data>
>     <top xmlns="namespace_x">
>         <x>
>             <y>5</y>
>             <z>6</z>
>         </x>
>         <xx>
>             <yy>55</yy>
>             <zz>66</zz>
>         </aa>
>     </top>
> </data>
>
>
> I wonder how the response would look like for the following filter:
>
> <filter type="subtree">
>     <top xmlns="namespace_a" xmlns:x="namespace_x">
>         <x:top/>
>     </top>
> </filter>
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>   

<filter type="subtree">
    <top xmlns="namespace_a"/>
    <x:top xmlns:x="namespace_x"/>
</filter>



> Tomasz
>   

Andy


> The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s).
> Please direct any additional queries to: communications@s3group.com.
> Thank You.
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
>
>   

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Hi,

I found few inconsistencies in the RFC 5277:

1) The section 3.3.2 refers to the "notificationComplete" term as it would be already known. However, only the next section describes a little
what it is and detailed information are in the XSD schema. IMO, a dedicated section for the predefined notification would be better

2) The same problem: replayLogAgedTime is mentioned in the section 3.3.1 but the clarification appears later and only in the XSD schema

Regards,
Tomasz

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Dec  3 08:40:11 2008
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Hi,

I found few inconsistencies in the RFC 5277:

1) The section 3.3.2 refers to the "notificationComplete" term as it would be already known. However, only the next section describes a little
what it is and detailed information are in the XSD schema. IMO, a dedicated section for the predefined notification would be better

2) The same problem: replayLogAgedTime is mentioned in the section 3.3.1 but the clarification appears later and only in the XSD schema

Regards,
Tomasz

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Dec  3 08:51:09 2008
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Andy Bierman wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Did you consider how a NETCONF server should handle a invalid name of
>> the XML tag. For instance how to handle a parameter called "1port" of the
>> "interface" class that is defined in a managed device? The following
>> hypothetical response is an invalid XML:
>>
>> <rpc-reply message-id="101"
>> xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <data>
>>         <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
>>             <interface>
>>                 <name>eth0</name>
>>                 <1port>1234</1port>    <!-- here -->
>>             </interface>
>>         </top>
>>     </data>
>> </rpc>
>>
>> Such parameter's name is valid from the CLI point of view. It means
>> that this kind of "dynamic-like" model may introduce limitations in the
>> device modeling if someone wants to use NETCONF. The following
>> "static-like" model can solve this problem:
>>
> 
> 
> Using the NETCONF standard means accepting the limitations
> of the standard, which in this case is imposed by XML.
> 
> 
>> <rpc-reply message-id="101"
>> xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <data>
>>         <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
>>             <managed_object>
>>                 <name>interface</name>
>>                 <object_instances>
>>                     <unique_id>eth0</unique_id>
>>                     <parameters>
>>                         <param_name>1port</param_name>
>>                         <param_value>1234</param_value>
>>                     </parameters>
>>                 </object_instances>
>>             </managed_object>
>>         </top>
>>     </data>
>> </rpc>
>>
> 
> You could internally map the CLI name to some valid XML name,
> instead of this sort of double abstraction, but it is just a
> DM design choice.

I noticed, that similar "double abstraction" is used in the model for notification event streams and in the examples of the notification filters
(section 5.1 RFC 5277).

>>
>> The "dynamic-like" object has limited functionality, because it can
>> show only a dynamic data (instances and parameters with valid values) and
>> it's hard to show another kind of data like static information about
>> managed_object type.
>>
>> Tomasz
>>
> 
> Andy
>

Tomasz

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Andy Bierman wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Did you consider how a NETCONF server should handle a invalid name of
>> the XML tag. For instance how to handle a parameter called "1port" of the
>> "interface" class that is defined in a managed device? The following
>> hypothetical response is an invalid XML:
>>
>> <rpc-reply message-id="101"
>> xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <data>
>>         <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
>>             <interface>
>>                 <name>eth0</name>
>>                 <1port>1234</1port>    <!-- here -->
>>             </interface>
>>         </top>
>>     </data>
>> </rpc>
>>
>> Such parameter's name is valid from the CLI point of view. It means
>> that this kind of "dynamic-like" model may introduce limitations in the
>> device modeling if someone wants to use NETCONF. The following
>> "static-like" model can solve this problem:
>>
> 
> 
> Using the NETCONF standard means accepting the limitations
> of the standard, which in this case is imposed by XML.
> 
> 
>> <rpc-reply message-id="101"
>> xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <data>
>>         <top xmlns="http://example.com/schema/1.2/config">
>>             <managed_object>
>>                 <name>interface</name>
>>                 <object_instances>
>>                     <unique_id>eth0</unique_id>
>>                     <parameters>
>>                         <param_name>1port</param_name>
>>                         <param_value>1234</param_value>
>>                     </parameters>
>>                 </object_instances>
>>             </managed_object>
>>         </top>
>>     </data>
>> </rpc>
>>
> 
> You could internally map the CLI name to some valid XML name,
> instead of this sort of double abstraction, but it is just a
> DM design choice.

I noticed, that similar "double abstraction" is used in the model for notification event streams and in the examples of the notification filters
(section 5.1 RFC 5277).

>>
>> The "dynamic-like" object has limited functionality, because it can
>> show only a dynamic data (instances and parameters with valid values) and
>> it's hard to show another kind of data like static information about
>> managed_object type.
>>
>> Tomasz
>>
> 
> Andy
>

Tomasz

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] global vs. partial-lock
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Hi,
  However, I think global and partial lock should be consistent. Why leave side effects to global lock alone?

washam
> Hello,
> 
> Washam Fan wrote:
> > Hi,
> >    global lock addressed failure scenarioes including 
> outstanding changes to candidate datastore which was not addressed 
> by partial-lock
> 
> We did not want to address this, as this might have surprising 
> side effects. See 
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg03995.html
> We wanted a lock that is simple to understand that locks the 
> nodes, and no side effects.
> 
> >    partial lock addressed faulure scenarioes including 
> outstanding commit to running datastore wich was not addressed by 
> global lock
> >    How do you think about them.
> 
> This is case is common for global and partial locks. I hope Martin 
> will add it to the 4741bis 
> draft.
> 
> Balazs
> 
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] global vs. partial-lock
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Hi,
  However, I think global and partial lock should be consistent. Why leave side effects to global lock alone?

washam
> Hello,
> 
> Washam Fan wrote:
> > Hi,
> >    global lock addressed failure scenarioes including 
> outstanding changes to candidate datastore which was not addressed 
> by partial-lock
> 
> We did not want to address this, as this might have surprising 
> side effects. See 
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg03995.html
> We wanted a lock that is simple to understand that locks the 
> nodes, and no side effects.
> 
> >    partial lock addressed faulure scenarioes including 
> outstanding commit to running datastore wich was not addressed by 
> global lock
> >    How do you think about them.
> 
> This is case is common for global and partial locks. I hope Martin 
> will add it to the 4741bis 
> draft.
> 
> Balazs
> 
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec  4 00:38:55 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] filtering notification streams
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Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
> What about filter input? Question is, whether the server should analyze unknown
> elements. Assuming that the server has only NETCONF event stream
> defined, how the response should look like if an unknown tag is used (i.e. a
> tag unspecified in the namespace), for instance:
> 
> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>     <get>
>         <filter type="subtree">
>             <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
>                 <streams>
>                     <stream>
>                         <unknown>NETCONF</unknown>
>                         <description/>
>                     </stream>
>                 </streams>
>             </netconf>
>         </filter>
>     </get>
> </rpc>]]>]]>

In this case, there's a content match node for the element "unknown",
which won't match, so the result is empty:


  <rpc-reply xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0" message-id="101">
    <data/>
  </rpc-reply>

> Is it adequate to the following request:
> 
> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>     <get>
>         <filter type="subtree">
>             <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
>                 <streams>
>                     <stream>
>                         <name>unknown</name>
>                         <description/>
>                     </stream>
>                 </streams>
>             </netcFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec  4 00:38:55 2008
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Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
> What about filter input? Question is, whether the server should analyze unknown
> elements. Assuming that the server has only NETCONF event stream
> defined, how the response should look like if an unknown tag is used (i.e. a
> tag unspecified in the namespace), for instance:
> 
> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>     <get>
>         <filter type="subtree">
>             <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
>                 <streams>
>                     <stream>
>                         <unknown>NETCONF</unknown>
>                         <description/>
>                     </stream>
>                 </streams>
>             </netconf>
>         </filter>
>     </get>
> </rpc>]]>]]>

In this case, there's a content match node for the element "unknown",
which won't match, so the result is empty:


  <rpc-reply xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0" message-id="101">
    <data/>
  </rpc-reply>

> Is it adequate to the following request:
> 
> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>     <get>
>         <filter type="subtree">
>             <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
>                 <streams>
>                     <stream>
>                         <name>unknown</name>
>                         <description/>
>                     </stream>
>                 </streams>
>             onf>
>         </filter>
>     </get>
> </rpc>]]>]]>

Here's a content match node "name" which matches a stream that does not
exist so you'll get the same empty result.


/martin
_______________________________________________
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Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


</netconf>
>         </filter>
>     </get>
> </rpc>]]>]]>

Here's a content match node "name" which matches a stream that does not
exist so you'll get the same empty result.


/martin
_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] filtering notification streams
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> What about filter input? Question is, whether the server should analyze unknown
>> elements. Assuming that the server has only NETCONF event stream
>> defined, how the response should look like if an unknown tag is used (i.e. a
>> tag unspecified in the namespace), for instance:
>>
>> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <get>
>>         <filter type="subtree">
>>             <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
>>                 <streams>
>>                     <stream>
>>                         <unknown>NETCONF</unknown>
>>                         <description/>
>>                     </stream>
>>                 </streams>
>>             </netconf>
>>         </filter>
>>     </get>
>> </rpc>]]>]]>
> 
> In this case, there's a content match node for the element "unknown",
> which won't match, so the result is empty:
> 
> 
>   <rpc-reply xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0" message-id="101">
>     <data/>
>   </rpc-reply>


OK, so that means, that even if a particular part of the filter doesn't belong to the namespace is processed (not just skipped)
and causes that all possibly response data are always filtered out (in case of the content match node)?
That also means that the following filter returns an empty response:

<rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
    <get>
        <filter type="subtree">
            <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification" xmlns:ns="elsewhere">
                <streams>
                    <stream>
                        <ns:defined_elsewhere>NETCONF</ns:defined_elsewhere>
                        <description/>
                    </stream>
                </streams>
            </netconf>
        </filter>
    </get>
</rpc>]]>]]>

, where "elsewhere" is well known namespace defining another data model.


>> Is it adequate to the following request:
>>
>> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <get>
>>         <filter type="subtree">
>>             <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
>>                 <streams>
>>                     <stream>
>>                         <name>unknown</name>
>>                         <description/>
>>                     </stream>
>>                 </streams>
>>             </netconf>
>>         </filter>
>>     </get>
>> </rpc>]]>]]>
> 
> Here's a content match node "name" which matches a stream that does not
> exist so you'll get the same empty result.
> 
> 
> /martin
> 

Tomasz

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] filtering notification streams
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> What about filter input? Question is, whether the server should analyze unknown
>> elements. Assuming that the server has only NETCONF event stream
>> defined, how the response should look like if an unknown tag is used (i.e. a
>> tag unspecified in the namespace), for instance:
>>
>> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <get>
>>         <filter type="subtree">
>>             <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
>>                 <streams>
>>                     <stream>
>>                         <unknown>NETCONF</unknown>
>>                         <description/>
>>                     </stream>
>>                 </streams>
>>             </netconf>
>>         </filter>
>>     </get>
>> </rpc>]]>]]>
> 
> In this case, there's a content match node for the element "unknown",
> which won't match, so the result is empty:
> 
> 
>   <rpc-reply xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0" message-id="101">
>     <data/>
>   </rpc-reply>


OK, so that means, that even if a particular part of the filter doesn't belong to the namespace is processed (not just skipped)
and causes that all possibly response data are always filtered out (in case of the content match node)?
That also means that the following filter returns an empty response:

<rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
    <get>
        <filter type="subtree">
            <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification" xmlns:ns="elsewhere">
                <streams>
                    <stream>
                        <ns:defined_elsewhere>NETCONF</ns:defined_elsewhere>
                        <description/>
                    </stream>
                </streams>
            </netconf>
        </filter>
    </get>
</rpc>]]>]]>

, where "elsewhere" is well known namespace defining another data model.


>> Is it adequate to the following request:
>>
>> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <get>
>>         <filter type="subtree">
>>             <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
>>                 <streams>
>>                     <stream>
>>                         <name>unknown</name>
>>                         <description/>
>>                     </stream>
>>                 </streams>
>>             </netconf>
>>         </filter>
>>     </get>
>> </rpc>]]>]]>
> 
> Here's a content match node "name" which matches a stream that does not
> exist so you'll get the same empty result.
> 
> 
> /martin
> 

Tomasz

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec  4 01:18:39 2008
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I moved this thread from netmod to the netconf list.

The issue is if the partial-lock spec should reuse the existing :xpath
capability or define a new :partial-lock-xpath capability.

The WG had this exact discussion when the notification spec was
written.  At that time I brought up this argument (I wanted a separate
capability for notification-xpath), but consensus was to reuse the
existing :xpath.

Of course the WG could change its mind, but since we already have
started to reuse the :xpath capability like this, I prefer to be
consistent and resue it also for partial locks.


/martin



Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> Phil Shafer wrote:
> > Balazs Lengyel writes:
> >   
> >> BALAZS: I could do that with introducing a new xpath-for-partial-lock
> >> capability. It is not more difficult to handle, then introducing "feature
> >> xpath" in the partial lock module. (
> >> On the other hand I don't want to control XPath handling for partial locking
> >> separately. It wou
> >> ld be confusing.)
> >>     
> >
> > Confusing .vs. not implementable.  In your current scheme, you
> > force devices that do one to do both.
> >
> > I feel we're beating the same horse again.  Do we need a concensus
> > call to move forward?  Didn't we already have (at least) one?
> >
> >   
> 
> I support Phil on this one.
> We do not want to force vendors to remove their :xpath advertisement
> for their compliant 4741 implementations, because they choose to
> implement :partial-lock but cannot adhere to all the bells and whistles
> that the partial lock draft adds to the :xpath capability.
> 
> To be more clear:
> 
>    A new capability MUST NOT add any requirements to an existing capability.
>  This rule is being violated by the partial-lock draft.
> 
> > Thanks,
> >  Phil
> >
> >
> >   
> Andy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> 
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
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I moved this thread from netmod to the netconf list.

The issue is if the partial-lock spec should reuse the existing :xpath
capability or define a new :partial-lock-xpath capability.

The WG had this exact discussion when the notification spec was
written.  At that time I brought up this argument (I wanted a separate
capability for notification-xpath), but consensus was to reuse the
existing :xpath.

Of course the WG could change its mind, but since we already have
started to reuse the :xpath capability like this, I prefer to be
consistent and resue it also for partial locks.


/martin



Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> Phil Shafer wrote:
> > Balazs Lengyel writes:
> >   
> >> BALAZS: I could do that with introducing a new xpath-for-partial-lock
> >> capability. It is not more difficult to handle, then introducing "feature
> >> xpath" in the partial lock module. (
> >> On the other hand I don't want to control XPath handling for partial locking
> >> separately. It wou
> >> ld be confusing.)
> >>     
> >
> > Confusing .vs. not implementable.  In your current scheme, you
> > force devices that do one to do both.
> >
> > I feel we're beating the same horse again.  Do we need a concensus
> > call to move forward?  Didn't we already have (at least) one?
> >
> >   
> 
> I support Phil on this one.
> We do not want to force vendors to remove their :xpath advertisement
> for their compliant 4741 implementations, because they choose to
> implement :partial-lock but cannot adhere to all the bells and whistles
> that the partial lock draft adds to the :xpath capability.
> 
> To be more clear:
> 
>    A new capability MUST NOT add any requirements to an existing capability.
>  This rule is being violated by the partial-lock draft.
> 
> > Thanks,
> >  Phil
> >
> >
> >   
> Andy
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> 
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk writes:
>> It's very illogical. Is it done on purpose or is kind of side effect?
> 
> These questions all relate to the model with which locks are used.
> The current NETCONF model is that there are two cases.  Either the
> applications treat the datastore as "owned" by one client, where
> only that clients is permitted to make changes, or the datastore
> is open to all applications, and these appplications can make changes
> at any time.
>
> In the first model, the lock is used to prevent other applications
> from changing the config while my application is changing it.  This
> model lends itself to the candidate datastore, where I can make
> changes, check them, record them, and/or commit them as my app sees
> fit.  I can use the "confirmed commit" mechanism to ensure that my
> change (and the box) are working well before releasing the lock to
> allow other applications to make changes.  My changes can be logged
> accurately and the responsibility for any errors can be placed at
> the foot of my app.
> 
> The the second model, many applications can make changes to the
> datastore without concern for their interactions.  This concern may
> be addressed in out-of-band mechanisms, or could be the outcome of
> the network management architecture in use by the network provider,
> but no locking is needed.  This model works well with the running
> datastore, where the config changes immediately affect the device
> and the audit mechanism would be tailored to a single <edit-config>
> payload.


I clearly understand these cases.
However I still don't feel what is the purpose of the issues:
1) Lock must fail if "The target configuration is <candidate>, it has already been
   modified, and these changes have not been committed or rolled back"
2) As the result of the <unlock> operation performed by session A, any outstanding changes must be
   discarded when the lock is released

I can't find their advantages. The server shouldn't be wiser than a user. Server should do whatever user want to do.
No matter if the application (i.e. a client) knows that "owns" the datastore, or
there are simultaneously sessions that may be interested in the same datastore area,
a particular session should be able to do a lock anytime wants to (unless configuration is already locked).
Moreover, the session that owns the lock is responsible what is left in the config after unlock.
The session holding the lock is an active ruler and if wants to commit the candidate, executes commit explicitly.
If wants to leave the candidate the same as running, explicit copying must be performed.

What about a session timeout, I mean if the timeout occurs on a session owning the lock. Let's say Admin
was preparing a huge and complicated candidate all morning and went for a cup of coffee before commit.
In the meantime timeout occurred. According to the RFC, unlock must be released and running must be copied to candidate.
What if running contains hundreds of managed objects and thousands of their instances? Have you ever thought about performance?

> Partial locking takes a hybrid approach, where the applications
> aren't concerned with each other, but still want some measure of
> assuredness that no one is changing the parts of the datastore the
> app consider it's own.  One could view it as "trust but verify",
> but IMHO it leaves the server open to long term locks that aren't
> condusive to simple clients that want to perform simple operations
> like "backup";  an app parked with a the partial lock prevents the
> client from getting the global lock needed to be able to save the
> complete config accurately.
> 
> Thanks,
>  Phil
>

Tomasz

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk writes:
>> It's very illogical. Is it done on purpose or is kind of side effect?
> 
> These questions all relate to the model with which locks are used.
> The current NETCONF model is that there are two cases.  Either the
> applications treat the datastore as "owned" by one client, where
> only that clients is permitted to make changes, or the datastore
> is open to all applications, and these appplications can make changes
> at any time.
>
> In the first model, the lock is used to prevent other applications
> from changing the config while my application is changing it.  This
> model lends itself to the candidate datastore, where I can make
> changes, check them, record them, and/or commit them as my app sees
> fit.  I can use the "confirmed commit" mechanism to ensure that my
> change (and the box) are working well before releasing the lock to
> allow other applications to make changes.  My changes can be logged
> accurately and the responsibility for any errors can be placed at
> the foot of my app.
> 
> The the second model, many applications can make changes to the
> datastore without concern for their interactions.  This concern may
> be addressed in out-of-band mechanisms, or could be the outcome of
> the network management architecture in use by the network provider,
> but no locking is needed.  This model works well with the running
> datastore, where the config changes immediately affect the device
> and the audit mechanism would be tailored to a single <edit-config>
> payload.


I clearly understand these cases.
However I still don't feel what is the purpose of the issues:
1) Lock must fail if "The target configuration is <candidate>, it has already been
   modified, and these changes have not been committed or rolled back"
2) As the result of the <unlock> operation performed by session A, any outstanding changes must be
   discarded when the lock is released

I can't find their advantages. The server shouldn't be wiser than a user. Server should do whatever user want to do.
No matter if the application (i.e. a client) knows that "owns" the datastore, or
there are simultaneously sessions that may be interested in the same datastore area,
a particular session should be able to do a lock anytime wants to (unless configuration is already locked).
Moreover, the session that owns the lock is responsible what is left in the config after unlock.
The session holding the lock is an active ruler and if wants to commit the candidate, executes commit explicitly.
If wants to leave the candidate the same as running, explicit copying must be performed.

What about a session timeout, I mean if the timeout occurs on a session owning the lock. Let's say Admin
was preparing a huge and complicated candidate all morning and went for a cup of coffee before commit.
In the meantime timeout occurred. According to the RFC, unlock must be released and running must be copied to candidate.
What if running contains hundreds of managed objects and thousands of their instances? Have you ever thought about performance?

> Partial locking takes a hybrid approach, where the applications
> aren't concerned with each other, but still want some measure of
> assuredness that no one is changing the parts of the datastore the
> app consider it's own.  One could view it as "trust but verify",
> but IMHO it leaves the server open to long term locks that aren't
> condusive to simple clients that want to perform simple operations
> like "backup";  an app parked with a the partial lock prevents the
> client from getting the global lock needed to be able to save the
> complete config accurately.
> 
> Thanks,
>  Phil
>

Tomasz

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Tomasz Mikolajczyk writes:
>1) Lock must fail if "The target configuration is <candidate>, it has already 
>been
>   modified, and these changes have not been committed or rolled back"

The client application shouldn't need to understand what outstanding
changes are in the config.  If there are uncommitted changes, then
something's wrong and someone smarter than my app should be required
to do something.

>2) As the result of the <unlock> operation performed by session A, any outstan
>ding changes must be
>   discarded when the lock is released

If an application crashes or network connectivity iFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec  4 06:37:37 2008
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To: Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:29:24 -0500
From: Phil Shafer <phil@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Tomasz Mikolajczyk writes:
>1) Lock must fail if "The target configuration is <candidate>, it has already 
>been
>   modified, and these changes have not been committed or rolled back"

The client application shouldn't need to understand what outstanding
changes are in the config.  If there are uncommitted changes, then
something's wrong and someone smarter than my app should be required
to do something.

>2) As the result of the <unlock> operation performed by session A, any outstan
>ding changes must be
>   discarded when the lock is released

If an application crashes or network connectivity is losts lost, we
want the server to recover back to a known state.  Discarding
changes does this.  When the client reconnects, it can reacquire
the lock (which is possible since changes have been discarded),
and redo any changes needed.

>No matter if the application (i.e. a client) knows that "owns" the datastore, 
>or
>there are simultaneously sessions that may be interested in the same datastore
> area,
>a particular session should be able to do a lock anytime wants to (unless conf
>iguration is already locked).

Multiple sessions can be interested in the same datastore, but the
lock forces their write (edit and commit) operations to be performed
in series.

>If wants to leave the candidate the same as running, explicit copying must be 
>performed.

But what we want to avoid is where the changes are left on the
candidate and the next client has no idea what's changed or
why, and can't decide what to do with them (commit or discard).

>What about a session timeout, I mean if the timeout occurs on a session owning
> the lock. Let's say Admin
>was preparing a huge and complicated candidate all morning and went for a cup 
>of coffee before commit.

NETCONF locks are meant to be short-lived and are not designed
for applications that take coffee breaks.

>In the meantime timeout occurred. According to the RFC, unlock must be release
>d and running must be copied to candidate.
>What if running contains hundreds of managed objects and thousands of their in
>stances? Have you ever thought about performance?

"ever"?  Sure, once ;^)

But the more important issue is about allowing clients to perform
their changes without needing artificial intelligence (or wise humans)
to find their way.

(Are you really arguing for both performance and coffee breaks? ;^)

Thanks,
 Phil
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


, we
want the server to recover back to a known state.  Discarding
changes does this.  When the client reconnects, it can reacquire
the lock (which is possible since changes have been discarded),
and redo any changes needed.

>No matter if the application (i.e. a client) knows that "owns" the datastore, 
>or
>there are simultaneously sessions that may be interested in the same datastore
> area,
>a particular session should be able to do a lock anytime wants to (unless conf
>iguration is already locked).

Multiple sessions can be interested in the same datastore, but the
lock forces their write (edit and commit) operations to be performed
in series.

>If wants to leave the candidate the same as running, explicit copying must be 
>performed.

But what we want to avoid is where the changes are left on the
candidate and the next client has no idea what's changed or
why, and can't decide what to do with them (commit or discard).

>What about a session timeout, I mean if the timeout occurs on a session owning
> the lock. Let's say Admin
>was preparing a huge and complicated candidate all morning and went for a cup 
>of coffee before commit.

NETCONF locks are meant to be short-lived and are not designed
for applications that take coffee breaks.

>In the meantime timeout occurred. According to the RFC, unlock must be release
>d and running must be copied to candidate.
>What if running contains hundreds of managed objects and thousands of their in
>stances? Have you ever thought about performance?

"ever"?  Sure, once ;^)

But the more important issue is about allowing clients to perform
their changes without needing artificial intelligence (or wise humans)
to find their way.

(Are you really arguing for both performance and coffee breaks? ;^)

Thanks,
 Phil
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 18:58:24 -0000 (GMT)
From: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk writes:
>>1) Lock must fail if "The target configuration is <candidate>, it has
>> already
>>been
>>   modified, and these changes have not been committed or rolled back"
>
> The client application shouldn't need to understand what outstanding
> changes are in the config.  If there are uncommitted changes, then
> something's wrong and someone smarter than my app should be required
> to do something.
>>2) As the result of the <unlock> operation performed by session A, any
>> outstan
>>ding changes must be
>>   discarded when the lock is released
>
> If an application crashes or network connectivity is lost, we
> want the server to recover back to a known state.  Discarding
> changes does this.  When the client reconnects, it can reacquire
> the lock (which is possible since changes have been discarded),
> and redo any changes needed.
>
>>No matter if the application (i.e. a client) kFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec  4 10:58:35 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk writes:
>>1) Lock must fail if "The target configuration is <candidate>, it has
>> already
>>been
>>   modified, and these changes have not been committed or rolled back"
>
> The client application shouldn't need to understand what outstanding
> changes are in the config.  If there are uncommitted changes, then
> something's wrong and someone smarter than my app should be required
> to do something.
>>2) As the result of the <unlock> operation performed by session A, any
>> outstan
>>ding changes must be
>>   discarded when the lock is released
>
> If an application crashes or network connectivity is lost, we
> want the server to recover back to a known state.  Discarding
> changes does this.  When the client reconnects, it can reacquire
> the lock (which is possible since changes have been discarded),
> and redo any changes needed.
>
>>No matter if the application (i.e. a clinows that "owns" the
>> datastore,
>>or
>>there are simultaneously sessions that may be interested in the same
>> datastore
>> area,
>>a particular session should be able to do a lock anytime wants to (unless
>> conf
>>iguration is already locked).
>
> Multiple sessions can be interested in the same datastore, but the
> lock forces their write (edit and commit) operations to be performed
> in series.

Yes, I agree. Lock and unlock are very important to unable other sessions
to do simultaneous changes.

>>If wants to leave the candidate the same as running, explicit copying
>> must be
>>performed.
>
> But what we want to avoid is where the changes are left on the
> candidate and the next client has no idea what's changed or
> why, and can't decide what to do with them (commit or discard).

I don't agree. I guess that the first operation that the next client would
execute after lock candidate is either delete-config on candidate, or
copy-config running->candidate to make sure that candidate doesn't contain
any unwanted data. It's very probable that the next session doesn't know
anything what was happening before, i.e whether data in candidate comes
from running as the result of the previous client's unlock, or are there
because the previous session made some changes in candidate without lock.
Even if the next session knows that the last session made unlock or
commit, shouldn't assume that candidate still corresponds to running as
running can change on its own. That means that such automatic reverting
candidate as the result of unlock is totally unnecessary.
So I still don't understand what these rules are introduced for.

>>What about a session timeout, I mean if the timeout occurs on a session
>> owning
>> the lock. Let's say Admin
>>was preparing a huge and complicated candidate all morning and went for a
>> cup
>>of coffee before commit.
>
> NETCONF locks are meant to be short-lived and are not designed
> for applications that take coffee breaks.

RFC doesn't say anything about lock duration.

>>In the meantime timeout occurred. According to the RFC, unlock must be
>> release
>>d and running must be copied to candidate.
>>What if running contains hundreds of managed objects and thousands of
>> their in
>>stances? Have you ever thought about performance?
>
> "ever"?  Sure, once ;^)

And?

> But the more important issue is about allowing clients to perform
> their changes without needing artificial intelligence (or wise humans)
> to find their way.
>
> (Are you really arguing for both performance and coffee breaks? ;^)

So you assume client performing automatically lock and unlock.

> Thanks,
>  Phil
>

Tomasz



The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s).
Please direct any additional queries to: communications@s3group.com.
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ent) knows that "owns" the
>> datastore,
>>or
>>there are simultaneously sessions that may be interested in the same
>> datastore
>> area,
>>a particular session should be able to do a lock anytime wants to (unless
>> conf
>>iguration is already locked).
>
> Multiple sessions can be interested in the same datastore, but the
> lock forces their write (edit and commit) operations to be performed
> in series.

Yes, I agree. Lock and unlock are very important to unable other sessions
to do simultaneous changes.

>>If wants to leave the candidate the same as running, explicit copying
>> must be
>>performed.
>
> But what we want to avoid is where the changes are left on the
> candidate and the next client has no idea what's changed or
> why, and can't decide what to do with them (commit or discard).

I don't agree. I guess that the first operation that the next client would
execute after lock candidate is either delete-config on candidate, or
copy-config running->candidate to make sure that candidate doesn't contain
any unwanted data. It's very probable that the next session doesn't know
anything what was happening before, i.e whether data in candidate comes
from running as the result of the previous client's unlock, or are there
because the previous session made some changes in candidate without lock.
Even if the next session knows that the last session made unlock or
commit, shouldn't assume that candidate still corresponds to running as
running can change on its own. That means that such automatic reverting
candidate as the result of unlock is totally unnecessary.
So I still don't understand what these rules are introduced for.

>>What about a session timeout, I mean if the timeout occurs on a session
>> owning
>> the lock. Let's say Admin
>>was preparing a huge and complicated candidate all morning and went for a
>> cup
>>of coffee before commit.
>
> NETCONF locks are meant to be short-lived and are not designed
> for applications that take coffee breaks.

RFC doesn't say anything about lock duration.

>>In the meantime timeout occurred. According to the RFC, unlock must be
>> release
>>d and running must be copied to candidate.
>>What if running contains hundreds of managed objects and thousands of
>> their in
>>stances? Have you ever thought about performance?
>
> "ever"?  Sure, once ;^)

And?

> But the more important issue is about allowing clients to perform
> their changes without needing artificial intelligence (or wise humans)
> to find their way.
>
> (Are you really arguing for both performance and coffee breaks? ;^)

So you assume client performing automatically lock and unlock.

> Thanks,
>  Phil
>

Tomasz



The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s).
Please direct any additional queries to: communications@s3group.com.
Thank You.
Silicon and Software Systems Limited. Registered in Ireland no. 378073.
Registered Office: South County Business Park, Leopardstown, Dublin 18
_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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To: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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"Tomasz Mikolajczyk" writes:
>I don't agree. I guess that the first operation that the next client would
>execute after lock candidate is either delete-config on candidate, or
>copy-config running->candidate to make sure that candidate doesn't contain
>any unwanted data.

If the changes are the result of a user sitting at the CLI, discarding
their changes is that very last thing you want to do.

>RFC doesn't say anything about lock duration.

7.5.  <lock>

   Description:

      The lock operation allows the client to lock the configuration
-->   system of a devicFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec  4 12:12:34 2008
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"Tomasz Mikolajczyk" writes:
>I don't agree. I guess that the first operation that the next client would
>execute after lock candidate is either delete-config on candidate, or
>copy-config running->candidate to make sure that candidate doesn't contain
>any unwanted data.

If the changes are the result of a user sitting at the CLI, discarding
their changes is that very last thing you want to do.

>RFC doesn't say anything about lock duration.

7.5.  <lock>

   Description:

      The lock operation allows the client to lock the configuration
-->   system of a device.  Sue.  Such locks are intended to be short-lived and
      allow a client to make a change without fear of interaction with
      other NETCONF clients, non-NETCONF clients (e.g., SNMP and command
      line interface (CLI) scripts), and human users.

Thanks,
 Phil
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ch locks are intended to be short-lived and
      allow a client to make a change without fear of interaction with
      other NETCONF clients, non-NETCONF clients (e.g., SNMP and command
      line interface (CLI) scripts), and human users.

Thanks,
 Phil
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec  4 13:36:40 2008
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Martin Bjorklund writes:
>Of course the WG could change its mind, but since we already have
>started to reuse the :xpath capability like this, I prefer to be
>consistent and resue it also for partial locks.

So in a few years, the :xpath capbility will be reused for the 57th
time in some new YANG module.  An implementor will need to decide
if they can afford to support the new module, given that they
supported :xpath on one of the 56 earlier uses.

This forces all-or-nothing decisions that I'd like to avoid and
even if we've made this mistake once, that should be enough.  I'd
vote for sanity over consistency.

Thanks,
 Phil
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Martin Bjorklund writes:
>Of course the WG could change its mind, but since we already have
>started to reuse the :xpath capability like this, I prefer to be
>consistent and resue it also for partial locks.

So in a few years, the :xpath capbility will be reused for the 57th
time in some new YANG module.  An implementor will need to decide
if they can afford to support the new module, given that they
supported :xpath on one of the 56 earlier uses.

This forces all-or-nothing decisions that I'd like to avoid and
even if we've made this mistake once, that should be enough.  I'd
vote for sanity over consistency.

Thanks,
 Phil
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Hi,
> I can't find their advantages. The server shouldn't be wiser than 
> a user. Server should do whatever user want to do.
> No matter if the application (i.e. a client) knows that "owns" the 
> datastore, or
> there are simultaneously sessions that may be interested in the 
> same datastore area,
> a particular session should be able to do a lock anytime wants to 
> (unless configuration is already locked).
> Moreover, the session that owns the lock is responsible what is 
> left in the config after unlock.
> The session holding the lock is an active ruler and if wants to 
> commit the candidate, executes commit explicitly.
> If wants to leave the candidate the same as running, explicit 
> copying must be performed.

A primary functionality of lock is to guarantee atomicity of a transaction or a series of operations, so unlock means either the transaction effect or not at all.
So IMHO, before <lock> candidate is the same as running, after <unlock> candidate is still same as running.

washam
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec  4 21:18:35 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Hi,
> I can't find their advantages. The server shouldn't be wiser than 
> a user. Server should do whatever user want to do.
> No matter if the application (i.e. a client) knows that "owns" the 
> datastore, or
> there are simultaneously sessions that may be interested in the 
> same datastore area,
> a particular session should be able to do a lock anytime wants to 
> (unless configuration is already locked).
> Moreover, the session that owns the lock is responsible what is 
> left in the config after unlock.
> The session holding the lock is an active ruler and if wants to 
> commit the candidate, executes commit explicitly.
> If wants to leave the candidate the same as running, explicit 
> copying must be performed.

A primary functionality of lock is to guarantee atomicity of a transaction or a series of operations, so unlock means either the transaction effect or not at all.
So IMHO, before <lock> candidate is the same as running, after <unlock> candidate is still same as running.

washam
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec  4 23:33:14 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" writes:
>> I don't agree. I guess that the first operation that the next client would
>> execute after lock candidate is either delete-config on candidate, or
>> copy-config running->candidate to make sure that candidate doesn't contain
>> any unwanted data.
> 
> If the changes are the result of a user sitting at the CLI, discarding
> their changes is that very last thing you want to do.

What a difference if the other session doing modification for candidate without lock is
CLI session or NETCONF session? Why CLI session can't do lock if has access to candidate.
As I already described, it's the same when you do a lock on candidate and see data there. You are not sure
if these data come from running (previous session unlock) or are prepared by other sessions working without
lock (either CLI or NETCONF or whatever). If you can do a lock, do it and change whatever you want. It's another session
problem if their data disappears when they work without lock.

>> RFC doesn't say anything about lock duration.
> 
> 7.5.  <lock>
> 
>    Description:
> 
>       The lock operation allows the client to lock the configuration
> -->   system of a device.  Such locks are intended to be short-lived and
>       allow a client to make a change without fear of interaction with
>       other NETCONF clients, non-NETCONF clients (e.g., SNMP and command
>       line interface (CLI) scripts), and human users.

Yes, You've right. I missed it.

> Thanks,
>  Phil
> 

Tomasz

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec  4 23:33:14 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" writes:
>> I don't agree. I guess that the first operation that the next client would
>> execute after lock candidate is either delete-config on candidate, or
>> copy-config running->candidate to make sure that candidate doesn't contain
>> any unwanted data.
> 
> If the changes are the result of a user sitting at the CLI, discarding
> their changes is that very last thing you want to do.

What a difference if the other session doing modification for candidate without lock is
CLI session or NETCONF session? Why CLI session can't do lock if has access to candidate.
As I already described, it's the same when you do a lock on candidate and see data there. You are not sure
if these data come from running (previous session unlock) or are prepared by other sessions working without
lock (either CLI or NETCONF or whatever). If you can do a lock, do it and change whatever you want. It's another session
problem if their data disappears when they work without lock.

>> RFC doesn't say anything about lock duration.
> 
> 7.5.  <lock>
> 
>    Description:
> 
>       The lock operation allows the client to lock the configuration
> -->   system of a device.  Such locks are intended to be short-lived and
>       allow a client to make a change without fear of interaction with
>       other NETCONF clients, non-NETCONF clients (e.g., SNMP and command
>       line interface (CLI) scripts), and human users.

Yes, You've right. I missed it.

> Thanks,
>  Phil
> 

Tomasz

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Washam Fan wrote:
> Hi,
>> I can't find their advantages. The server shouldn't be wiser than 
>> a user. Server should do whatever user want to do.
>> No matter if the application (i.e. a client) knows that "owns" the 
>> datastore, or
>> there are simultaneously sessions that may be interested in the 
>> same datastore area,
>> a particular session should be able to do a lock anytime wants to 
>> (unless configuration is already locked).
>> Moreover, the session that owns the lock is responsible what is 
>> left in the config after unlock.
>> The session holding the lock is an active ruler and if wants to 
>> commit the candidate, executes commit explicitly.
>> If wants to leave the candidate the same as running, explicit 
>> copying must be performed.
> 
> A primary functionality of lock is to guarantee atomicity of a transaction or a series of operations, so unlock means either the transaction effect or not at all.
> So IMHO, before <lock> candidate is the same as running, after <unlock> candidate is still same as running.
> 
> washam
> 

I understand the purpose of lock and unlock. Atomicity guarantees that in transaction either all operations completely occur, or have no
effects. So that means that unlock should leave candidate configuration with the same state as before lock and not with the same state as
running. You can't be sure that before lock the state of candidate is the same of running. Consider the following scenario:

1) Session A starts:
1) [A] copy-config running->candidate
2) [A] series of edit-config on unlocked candidate (for example creates new interfaces, sets interfaces parameters)
3) Session B starts (session A still does changes on candidate)
4) [B] do a successful lock
5) [B] get-config on candidate. How B can be sure that the current candidate content is the same as running. Actually in this case candidate !=
running !!
6) [B] It can't be sure, so to make sure executes copy-config running->candidate. As is a lock holder doesn't care if other sessions uses
candidate or not
7) [B] series of edit-config
8) [B] unlock

What such unlock has in common with atomicity? See that after unlock state of candidate is completely different than before.

Tomasz


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Washam Fan wrote:
> Hi,
>> I can't find their advantages. The server shouldn't be wiser than 
>> a user. Server should do whatever user want to do.
>> No matter if the application (i.e. a client) knows that "owns" the 
>> datastore, or
>> there are simultaneously sessions that may be interested in the 
>> same datastore area,
>> a particular session should be able to do a lock anytime wants to 
>> (unless configuration is already locked).
>> Moreover, the session that owns the lock is responsible what is 
>> left in the config after unlock.
>> The session holding the lock is an active ruler and if wants to 
>> commit the candidate, executes commit explicitly.
>> If wants to leave the candidate the same as running, explicit 
>> copying must be performed.
> 
> A primary functionality of lock is to guarantee atomicity of a transaction or a series of operations, so unlock means either the transaction effect or not at all.
> So IMHO, before <lock> candidate is the same as running, after <unlock> candidate is still same as running.
> 
> washam
> 

I understand the purpose of lock and unlock. Atomicity guarantees that in transaction either all operations completely occur, or have no
effects. So that means that unlock should leave candidate configuration with the same state as before lock and not with the same state as
running. You can't be sure that before lock the state of candidate is the same of running. Consider the following scenario:

1) Session A starts:
1) [A] copy-config running->candidate
2) [A] series of edit-config on unlocked candidate (for example creates new interfaces, sets interfaces parameters)
3) Session B starts (session A still does changes on candidate)
4) [B] do a successful lock
5) [B] get-config on candidate. How B can be sure that the current candidate content is the same as running. Actually in this case candidate !=
running !!
6) [B] It can't be sure, so to make sure executes copy-config running->candidate. As is a lock holder doesn't care if other sessions uses
candidate or not
7) [B] series of edit-config
8) [B] unlock

What such unlock has in common with atomicity? See that after unlock state of candidate is completely different than before.

Tomasz


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On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:08:48AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
 
> What such unlock has in common with atomicity? See that after unlock
> state of candidate is completely different than before.

If you don't lock, you do not get any guarantees.

/js

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On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:08:48AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
 
> What such unlock has in common with atomicity? See that after unlock
> state of candidate is completely different than before.

If you don't lock, you do not get any guarantees.

/js

-- 
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:08:48AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>  
>> What such unlock has in common with atomicity? See that after unlock
>> state of candidate is completely different than before.
> 
> If you don't lock, you do not get any guarantees.
> 
> /js
> 

But the session [B] from the example did before any other operations.

Tomasz

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:08:48AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>  
>> What such unlock has in common with atomicity? See that after unlock
>> state of candidate is completely different than before.
> 
> If you don't lock, you do not get any guarantees.
> 
> /js
> 

But the session [B] from the example did before any other operations.

Tomasz

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:49:43AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
> Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:08:48AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
> >  
> >> What such unlock has in common with atomicity? See that after unlock
> >> state of candidate is completely different than before.
> > 
> > If you don't lock, you do not get any guarantees.
> > 
> > /js
> 
> But the session [B] from the example did before any other operations.

A lock means "nobody interferes with what you are doing as long as you
own the lock". A lock is a tool to implement an atomic transaction; it
is not an atomic transaction by itself. I find section 7.5 of RFC 4741
rather clear about what a lock does.

/js

-- 
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Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
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On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:49:43AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
> Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:08:48AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
> >  
> >> What such unlock has in common with atomicity? See that after unlock
> >> state of candidate is completely different than before.
> > 
> > If you don't lock, you do not get any guarantees.
> > 
> > /js
> 
> But the session [B] from the example did before any other operations.

A lock means "nobody interferes with what you are doing as long as you
own the lock". A lock is a tool to implement an atomic transaction; it
is not an atomic transaction by itself. I find section 7.5 of RFC 4741
rather clear about what a lock does.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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> > A primary functionality of lock is to guarantee atomicity of a 
> transaction or a series of operations, so unlock means either the 
> transaction effect or not at all.
> > So IMHO, before <lock> candidate is the same as running, after 
> <unlock> candidate is still same as running.
> > 
> > washam
> > 
> 
> I understand the purpose of lock and unlock. Atomicity guarantees 
> that in transaction either all operations completely occur, or 
> have no
> effects. So that means that unlock should leave candidate 
> configuration with the same state as before lock and not with the 
> same state as
> running. You can't be sure that before lock the state of candidate 
> is the same of running. Consider the following scenario:
> 
> 1) Session A starts:
> 1) [A] copy-config running->candidate
> 2) [A] series of edit-config on unlocked candidate (for example 
> creates new interfaces, sets interfaces parameters)
> 3) Session B starts (session A still does changes on candidate)
> 4) [B] do a successful lock
> 5) [B] get-config on candidate. How B can be sure that the current 
> candidate content is the same as running. Actually in this case 
> candidate !=
> running !!
I am afraid [B] can't do a successful lock on a modified candidate datastore, which is one of the lock failure scenarios.
Well, partial lock allows it, I addressed the issue in thread "global vs. partial lock"

washam
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> > A primary functionality of lock is to guarantee atomicity of a 
> transaction or a series of operations, so unlock means either the 
> transaction effect or not at all.
> > So IMHO, before <lock> candidate is the same as running, after 
> <unlock> candidate is still same as running.
> > 
> > washam
> > 
> 
> I understand the purpose of lock and unlock. Atomicity guarantees 
> that in transaction either all operations completely occur, or 
> have no
> effects. So that means that unlock should leave candidate 
> configuration with the same state as before lock and not with the 
> same state as
> running. You can't be sure that before lock the state of candidate 
> is the same of running. Consider the following scenario:
> 
> 1) Session A starts:
> 1) [A] copy-config running->candidate
> 2) [A] series of edit-config on unlocked candidate (for example 
> creates new interfaces, sets interfaces parameters)
> 3) Session B starts (session A still does changes on candidate)
> 4) [B] do a successful lock
> 5) [B] get-config on candidate. How B can be sure that the current 
> candidate content is the same as running. Actually in this case 
> candidate !=
> running !!
I am afraid [B] can't do a successful lock on a modified candidate datastore, which is one of the lock failure scenarios.
Well, partial lock allows it, I addressed the issue in thread "global vs. partial lock"

washam
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:49:43AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>> Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
>>> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:08:48AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>>>  
>>>> What such unlock has in common with atomicity? See that after unlock
>>>> state of candidate is completely different than before.
>>> If you don't lock, you do not get any guarantees.
>>>
>>> /js
>> But the session [B] from the example did before any other operations.
> 
> A lock means "nobody interferes with what you are doing as long as you
> own the lock".

Yes, but you don't know the history, especially if the previous sessions did changes on candidate without lock/unlock
before your session using lock/unlock started. It means that those possible sessions don't interfere with what your session
is doing, because they may no longer exist.

> A lock is a tool to implement an atomic transaction; it
> is not an atomic transaction by itself. 

Yes, I agree. However, my scenario presented a few posts ago shows that unlock based on the current spec. can very easy break the atomicity.

I find section 7.5 of RFC 4741
> rather clear about what a lock does.
> 
> /js
> 

I agree sesion 7.5 is clear but 7.6. not. I mean unlock should be only unlock and not unlock and copy running->candidate.

Tomasz


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:49:43AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>> Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
>>> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:08:48AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>>>  
>>>> What such unlock has in common with atomicity? See that after unlock
>>>> state of candidate is completely different than before.
>>> If you don't lock, you do not get any guarantees.
>>>
>>> /js
>> But the session [B] from the example did before any other operations.
> 
> A lock means "nobody interferes with what you are doing as long as you
> own the lock".

Yes, but you don't know the history, especially if the previous sessions did changes on candidate without lock/unlock
before your session using lock/unlock started. It means that those possible sessions don't interfere with what your session
is doing, because they may no longer exist.

> A lock is a tool to implement an atomic transaction; it
> is not an atomic transaction by itself. 

Yes, I agree. However, my scenario presented a few posts ago shows that unlock based on the current spec. can very easy break the atomicity.

I find section 7.5 of RFC 4741
> rather clear about what a lock does.
> 
> /js
> 

I agree sesion 7.5 is clear but 7.6. not. I mean unlock should be only unlock and not unlock and copy running->candidate.

Tomasz


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On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 10:22:35AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
 
> Yes, I agree. However, my scenario presented a few posts ago shows
> that unlock based on the current spec. can very easy break the
> atomicity.

You might not like the unlock discard behaviour. That can be
debated. But claiming that unlock breaks atomicity is IMHO
non-sense. If a session does not lock candidate, anything can 
happen to the candidate datastore, including discard-config.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
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On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 10:22:35AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
 
> Yes, I agree. However, my scenario presented a few posts ago shows
> that unlock based on the current spec. can very easy break the
> atomicity.

You might not like the unlock discard behaviour. That can be
debated. But claiming that unlock breaks atomicity is IMHO
non-sense. If a session does not lock candidate, anything can 
happen to the candidate datastore, including discard-config.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Dec  5 02:16:36 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Washam Fan wrote:
>  
>>> A primary functionality of lock is to guarantee atomicity of a 
>> transaction or a series of operations, so unlock means either the 
>> transaction effect or not at all.
>>> So IMHO, before <lock> candidate is the same as running, after 
>> <unlock> candidate is still same as running.
>>> washam
>>>
>> I understand the purpose of lock and unlock. Atomicity guarantees 
>> that in transaction either all operations completely occur, or 
>> have no
>> effects. So that means that unlock should leave candidate 
>> configuration with the same state as before lock and not with the 
>> same state as
>> running. You can't be sure that before lock the state of candidate 
>> is the same of running. Consider the following scenario:
>>
>> 1) Session A starts:
>> 1) [A] copy-config running->candidate
>> 2) [A] series of edit-config on unlocked candidate (for example 
>> creates new interfaces, sets interfaces parameters)
>> 3) Session B starts (session A still does changes on candidate)
>> 4) [B] do a successful lock
>> 5) [B] get-config on candidate. How B can be sure that the current 
>> candidate content is the same as running. Actually in this case 
>> candidate !=
>> running !!
> I am afraid [B] can't do a successful lock on a modified candidate datastore, which is one of the lock failure scenarios.
> Well, partial lock allows it, I addressed the issue in thread "global vs. partial lock"
> 
> washam
> 

Yes, you've right. I forgot about this feature. So corrected version of the scenario:

1) Session A starts:
2) [A] get-config on running
3) [A] get-config on candidate (assumption: running==candidate)
4) someone removes manually interface from the device
5) [A] response get-config on running shows that one interface disappeared
6) Session B starts
7) [B] do a successful lock
8) [B] get-config on candidate. How B can be sure that the current candidate content is the same as running. Actually in this case candidate !=
running
9) [B] It can't be sure, so to make sure executes copy-config running->candidate. As is a lock holder doesn't care if other sessions uses
candidate or not
10) [B] series of edit-config
11) [B] unlock

As the unlock part, copy-config running->candidate is performed, and as a result candidate content before lock != candidate content after lock.

Tomasz


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Washam Fan wrote:
>  
>>> A primary functionality of lock is to guarantee atomicity of a 
>> transaction or a series of operations, so unlock means either the 
>> transaction effect or not at all.
>>> So IMHO, before <lock> candidate is the same as running, after 
>> <unlock> candidate is still same as running.
>>> washam
>>>
>> I understand the purpose of lock and unlock. Atomicity guarantees 
>> that in transaction either all operations completely occur, or 
>> have no
>> effects. So that means that unlock should leave candidate 
>> configuration with the same state as before lock and not with the 
>> same state as
>> running. You can't be sure that before lock the state of candidate 
>> is the same of running. Consider the following scenario:
>>
>> 1) Session A starts:
>> 1) [A] copy-config running->candidate
>> 2) [A] series of edit-config on unlocked candidate (for example 
>> creates new interfaces, sets interfaces parameters)
>> 3) Session B starts (session A still does changes on candidate)
>> 4) [B] do a successful lock
>> 5) [B] get-config on candidate. How B can be sure that the current 
>> candidate content is the same as running. Actually in this case 
>> candidate !=
>> running !!
> I am afraid [B] can't do a successful lock on a modified candidate datastore, which is one of the lock failure scenarios.
> Well, partial lock allows it, I addressed the issue in thread "global vs. partial lock"
> 
> washam
> 

Yes, you've right. I forgot about this feature. So corrected version of the scenario:

1) Session A starts:
2) [A] get-config on running
3) [A] get-config on candidate (assumption: running==candidate)
4) someone removes manually interface from the device
5) [A] response get-config on running shows that one interface disappeared
6) Session B starts
7) [B] do a successful lock
8) [B] get-config on candidate. How B can be sure that the current candidate content is the same as running. Actually in this case candidate !=
running
9) [B] It can't be sure, so to make sure executes copy-config running->candidate. As is a lock holder doesn't care if other sessions uses
candidate or not
10) [B] series of edit-config
11) [B] unlock

As the unlock part, copy-config running->candidate is performed, and as a result candidate content before lock != candidate content after lock.

Tomasz


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 10:22:35AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>  
>> Yes, I agree. However, my scenario presented a few posts ago shows
>> that unlock based on the current spec. can very easy break the
>> atomicity.
> 
> You might not like the unlock discard behaviour. That can be
> debated. But claiming that unlock breaks atomicity is IMHO
> non-sense.

Yes, you've right. We cannot talking about atomicity. It's even not a transaction.

If a session does not lock candidate, anything can
> happen to the candidate datastore, including discard-config.
> 
> /js
> 

I absolutely agree. No matter if it's CLI session or NETCONF session.

Another point. If unlock means also copying running->candidate it means that for any reasons unlock may fail. What's then?
I expect that unlock must be successful. So does the unlock means copy running->candidate as much as you can?

Tomasz

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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 10:22:35AM +0100, Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
>  
>> Yes, I agree. However, my scenario presented a few posts ago shows
>> that unlock based on the current spec. can very easy break the
>> atomicity.
> 
> You might not like the unlock discard behaviour. That can be
> debated. But claiming that unlock breaks atomicity is IMHO
> non-sense.

Yes, you've right. We cannot talking about atomicity. It's even not a transaction.

If a session does not lock candidate, anything can
> happen to the candidate datastore, including discard-config.
> 
> /js
> 

I absolutely agree. No matter if it's CLI session or NETCONF session.

Another point. If unlock means also copying running->candidate it means that for any reasons unlock may fail. What's then?
I expect that unlock must be successful. So does the unlock means copy running->candidate as much as you can?

Tomasz

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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> 1) Session A starts:
> 2) [A] get-config on running
> 3) [A] get-config on candidate (assumption: running==candidate)
> 4) someone removes manually interface from the device
> 5) [A] response get-config on running shows that one interface 
> disappeared6) Session B starts
> 7) [B] do a successful lock
> 8) [B] get-config on candidate. How B can be sure that the current 
> candidate content is the same as running. Actually in this case 
> candidate !=
> running

Do you mean candidate still keep the data about removed interface?
I don't know what impact this kind of inconsistency would have, but any change on the interface would make no sense to running.

> 9) [B] It can't be sure, so to make sure executes copy-config 
> running->candidate. As is a lock holder doesn't care if other 
> sessions uses
> candidate or not
> 10) [B] series of edit-config
> 11) [B]From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Dec  5 06:35:19 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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> 1) Session A starts:
> 2) [A] get-config on running
> 3) [A] get-config on candidate (assumption: running==candidate)
> 4) someone removes manually interface from the device
> 5) [A] response get-config on running shows that one interface 
> disappeared6) Session B starts
> 7) [B] do a successful lock
> 8) [B] get-config on candidate. How B can be sure that the current 
> candidate content is the same as running. Actually in this case 
> candidate !=
> running

Do you mean candidate still keep the data about removed interface?
I don't know what impact this kind of inconsistency would have, but any change on the interface would make no sense to running.

> 9) [B] It can't be sure, so to make sure executes copy-config 
> running->candidate. As is a lock holder doesn't care if other 
> sessions uses
> candidate or not
> 10) [B] series of edit-config
> 11) [B] unloc unlock

You didn't commit, so unlock means discard all the changes on candidate which has the same effect as copy-config running->candidate.

> As the unlock part, copy-config running->candidate is performed, 
> and as a result candidate content before lock != candidate content 
> after lock.
That's OK.IMHO, candidate should be synchronized with running at every failed <commit> or every <unlock>, candidate should be a mirror of running.

washam
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k

You didn't commit, so unlock means discard all the changes on candidate which has the same effect as copy-config running->candidate.

> As the unlock part, copy-config running->candidate is performed, 
> and as a result candidate content before lock != candidate content 
> after lock.
That's OK.IMHO, candidate should be synchronized with running at every failed <commit> or every <unlock>, candidate should be a mirror of running.

washam
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> Another point. If unlock means also copying running->candidate it 
> means that for any reasons unlock may fail. What's then?
> I expect that unlock must be successful. So does the unlock means 
> copy running->candidate as much as you can?

Failed commit means copying running->candidate,too. When users edit-config candidate, they think all the changes they've made on candidate would take effect on running eventually. A inconsistency candidate make no sense, IMHO.

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> Another point. If unlock means also copying running->candidate it 
> means that for any reasons unlock may fail. What's then?
> I expect that unlock must be successful. So does the unlock means 
> copy running->candidate as much as you can?

Failed commit means copying running->candidate,too. When users edit-config candidate, they think all the changes they've made on candidate would take effect on running eventually. A inconsistency candidate make no sense, IMHO.

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From: "Sharon Chisholm" <schishol@nortel.com>
To: "Phil Shafer" <phil@juniper.net>, "Martin Bjorklund" <mbj@tail-f.com>
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
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Hi

The alternative is to have way too much granularity in capability
definitions . I think the current method of using the existing :xpath
advertisers makes the most sense.  Really, once an implementation
supports XPath for one (or 56 features), the cost of supporting xpath
for a single new capability is not the same as supporting it for the
first capability.

And should some new fancier version of XPath ever come out, we can just
create a new capability :xpath-fancy without having (3*57) capabilities.

Sharon

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Phil Shafer
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:27 PM
To: Martin Bjorklund
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities

Martin Bjorklund writes:
>Of course the WG could change its mind, but since we already have 
>started to reuse the :xpath capability like this, I prefer to be 
>consistent and resue it also for partial locks.

So in a few years, the :xpath capbility will be reused for the 57th time
in some new YANG module.  An implementor will need to decide if they can
afford to support the new module, given that they supported :xpath on
one of the 56 earlier uses.

This forces all-or-nothing decisions that I'd like to avoid and even if
we've made this mistake once, that should be enough.  I'd vote for
sanity over consistency.

Thanks,
 Phil
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
_______________________________________________
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Dec  5 09:05:28 2008
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From: "Sharon Chisholm" <schishol@nortel.com>
To: "Phil Shafer" <phil@juniper.net>, "Martin Bjorklund" <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Hi

The alternative is to have way too much granularity in capability
definitions . I think the current method of using the existing :xpath
advertisers makes the most sense.  Really, once an implementation
supports XPath for one (or 56 features), the cost of supporting xpath
for a single new capability is not the same as supporting it for the
first capability.

And should some new fancier version of XPath ever come out, we can just
create a new capability :xpath-fancy without having (3*57) capabilities.

Sharon

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Phil Shafer
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:27 PM
To: Martin Bjorklund
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities

Martin Bjorklund writes:
>Of course the WG could change its mind, but since we already have 
>started to reuse the :xpath capability like this, I prefer to be 
>consistent and resue it also for partial locks.

So in a few years, the :xpath capbility will be reused for the 57th time
in some new YANG module.  An implementor will need to decide if they can
afford to support the new module, given that they supported :xpath on
one of the 56 earlier uses.

This forces all-or-nothing decisions that I'd like to avoid and even if
we've made this mistake once, that should be enough.  I'd vote for
sanity over consistency.

Thanks,
 Phil
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
_______________________________________________
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Dec  5 10:14:17 2008
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Sharon Chisholm wrote:
> Hi
> 
> The alternative is to have way too much granularity in capability
> definitions . I think the current method of using the existing :xpath
> advertisers makes the most sense.  Really, once an implementation
> supports XPath for one (or 56 features), the cost of supporting xpath
> for a single new capability is not the same as supporting it for the
> first capability.
> 
> And should some new fancier version of XPath ever come out, we can just
> create a new capability :xpath-fancy without having (3*57) capabilities.
> 

I think Phil's proposal to make this a YANG feature is the right choice,
but if the NETMOD dependency is unacceptable, then a new capability
is needed instead.

It is a big deal to keep piling on an existing capability.
The WG decided to make some functionality optional,
so it should be optional.

Consider an agent implementation with sub-agents or even pluggable
YANG modules, so module X is written with no knowledge of module Y.
An NMS application relies on module X support of :xpath capability.
Now a new module (partial-lock) is added and a different NMS app
is used to control it.  Except the new module, being rushed to
market, is a bare-bones compliant implementation with no extras.

The vendor is now hosed one way or another.
Either advertise :xpath so the first app does not break,
or NOT advertise :xpath so the 2nd app does not break.


> Sharon


Andy


> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Phil Shafer
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:27 PM
> To: Martin Bjorklund
> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
> 
> Martin Bjorklund writes:
>> Of course the WG could change its mind, but since we already have 
>> started to reuse the :xpath capability like this, I prefer to be 
>> consistent and resue it also for partial locks.
> 
> So in a few years, the :xpath capbility will be reused for the 57th time
> in some new YANG module.  An implementor will need to decide if they can
> afford to support the new module, given that they supported :xpath on
> one of the 56 earlier uses.
> 
> This forces all-or-nothing decisions that I'd like to avoid and even if
> we've made this mistake once, that should be enough.  I'd vote for
> sanity over consistency.
> 
> Thanks,
>  Phil
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
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Sharon Chisholm wrote:
> Hi
> 
> The alternative is to have way too much granularity in capability
> definitions . I think the current method of using the existing :xpath
> advertisers makes the most sense.  Really, once an implementation
> supports XPath for one (or 56 features), the cost of supporting xpath
> for a single new capability is not the same as supporting it for the
> first capability.
> 
> And should some new fancier version of XPath ever come out, we can just
> create a new capability :xpath-fancy without having (3*57) capabilities.
> 

I think Phil's proposal to make this a YANG feature is the right choice,
but if the NETMOD dependency is unacceptable, then a new capability
is needed instead.

It is a big deal to keep piling on an existing capability.
The WG decided to make some functionality optional,
so it should be optional.

Consider an agent implementation with sub-agents or even pluggable
YANG modules, so module X is written with no knowledge of module Y.
An NMS application relies on module X support of :xpath capability.
Now a new module (partial-lock) is added and a different NMS app
is used to control it.  Except the new module, being rushed to
market, is a bare-bones compliant implementation with no extras.

The vendor is now hosed one way or another.
Either advertise :xpath so the first app does not break,
or NOT advertise :xpath so the 2nd app does not break.


> Sharon


Andy


> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Phil Shafer
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:27 PM
> To: Martin Bjorklund
> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
> 
> Martin Bjorklund writes:
>> Of course the WG could change its mind, but since we already have 
>> started to reuse the :xpath capability like this, I prefer to be 
>> consistent and resue it also for partial locks.
> 
> So in a few years, the :xpath capbility will be reused for the 57th time
> in some new YANG module.  An implementor will need to decide if they can
> afford to support the new module, given that they supported :xpath on
> one of the 56 earlier uses.
> 
> This forces all-or-nothing decisions that I'd like to avoid and even if
> we've made this mistake once, that should be enough.  I'd vote for
> sanity over consistency.
> 
> Thanks,
>  Phil
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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From: "Sharon Chisholm" <schishol@nortel.com>
To: "Andy Bierman" <andy@netconfcentral.com>
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
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Hi

Doesn't that violate the separation of the protocol from the data model?
How does this work for all the implementations that don't currently
support yang?

Sharon 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com] 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 1:14 PM
To: Chisholm, Sharon (CAR:ZZ00)
Cc: Phil Shafer; Martin Bjorklund; netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities

Sharon Chisholm wrote:
> Hi
> 
> The alternative is to have way too much granularity in capability 
> definitions . I think the current method of using the existing :xpath 
> advertisers makes the most sense.  Really, once an implementation 
> supports XPath for one (or 56 features), the cost of supporting xpath 
> for a single new capability is not the same as supporting it for the 
> first capability.
> 
> And should some new fancier version of XPath ever come out, we can 
> just create a new capability :xpath-fancy without having (3*57)
capabilities.
> 

I think Phil's proposal to make this a YANG feature is the right choice,
but if the NETMOD dependency is unacceptable, then a new capability is
needed instead.

It is a big deal to keep piling on an existing capability.
The WG decided to make some functionality optional, so it should be
optional.

Consider an agent implementation with sub-agents or even pluggable YANG
modules, so module X is written with no knowledge of module Y.
An NMS application relies on module X support of :xpath capability.
Now a new module (partial-lock) is added and a different NMS app is used
to control it.  Except the new module, being rushed to market, is a
bare-bones compliant implementation with no extras.

The vendor is now hosed one way or another.
Either advertise :xpath so the first app does not break, or NOT
advertise :xpath so the 2nd app does not break.


> Sharon


Andy


> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Phil Shafer
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:27 PM
> To: Martin Bjorklund
> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
> 
> Martin Bjorklund writes:
>> Of course the WG could change its mind, but since we already have 
>> started to reuse the :xpath capability like this, I prefer to be 
>> consistent and resue it also for partial locks.
> 
> So in a few years, the :xpath capbility will be reused for the 57th 
> time in some new YANG module.  An implementor will need to decide if 
> they can afford to support the new module, given that they supported 
> :xpath on one of the 56 earlier uses.
> 
> This forces all-or-nothing decisions that I'd like to avoid and even 
> if we've made this mistake once, that should be enough.  I'd vote for 
> sanity over consistency.
> 
> Thanks,
>  Phil
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
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From: "Sharon Chisholm" <schishol@nortel.com>
To: "Andy Bierman" <andy@netconfcentral.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
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Hi

Doesn't that violate the separation of the protocol from the data model?
How does this work for all the implementations that don't currently
support yang?

Sharon 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com] 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 1:14 PM
To: Chisholm, Sharon (CAR:ZZ00)
Cc: Phil Shafer; Martin Bjorklund; netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities

Sharon Chisholm wrote:
> Hi
> 
> The alternative is to have way too much granularity in capability 
> definitions . I think the current method of using the existing :xpath 
> advertisers makes the most sense.  Really, once an implementation 
> supports XPath for one (or 56 features), the cost of supporting xpath 
> for a single new capability is not the same as supporting it for the 
> first capability.
> 
> And should some new fancier version of XPath ever come out, we can 
> just create a new capability :xpath-fancy without having (3*57)
capabilities.
> 

I think Phil's proposal to make this a YANG feature is the right choice,
but if the NETMOD dependency is unacceptable, then a new capability is
needed instead.

It is a big deal to keep piling on an existing capability.
The WG decided to make some functionality optional, so it should be
optional.

Consider an agent implementation with sub-agents or even pluggable YANG
modules, so module X is written with no knowledge of module Y.
An NMS application relies on module X support of :xpath capability.
Now a new module (partial-lock) is added and a different NMS app is used
to control it.  Except the new module, being rushed to market, is a
bare-bones compliant implementation with no extras.

The vendor is now hosed one way or another.
Either advertise :xpath so the first app does not break, or NOT
advertise :xpath so the 2nd app does not break.


> Sharon


Andy


> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Phil Shafer
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:27 PM
> To: Martin Bjorklund
> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
> 
> Martin Bjorklund writes:
>> Of course the WG could change its mind, but since we already have 
>> started to reuse the :xpath capability like this, I prefer to be 
>> consistent and resue it also for partial locks.
> 
> So in a few years, the :xpath capbility will be reused for the 57th 
> time in some new YANG module.  An implementor will need to decide if 
> they can afford to support the new module, given that they supported 
> :xpath on one of the 56 earlier uses.
> 
> This forces all-or-nothing decisions that I'd like to avoid and even 
> if we've made this mistake once, that should be enough.  I'd vote for 
> sanity over consistency.
> 
> Thanks,
>  Phil
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Dec  5 10:29:00 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
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Sharon Chisholm wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Doesn't that violate the separation of the protocol from the data model?

No, because the feature is defined as "XPath 1.0 support for partial-lock",
which puts it in the operations layer, not the protocol layer.

> How does this work for all the implementations that don't currently
> support yang?
> 

An agent does not need to support YANG to construct a capability URI
with an extra "?features=xpath-lock" on the end of it.  But using a YANG feature
is not important enough to wait on the normative reference.

A separate capability is fine.  So far there are a handful of
standard capabilities and adding 1 more will not hurt.
There are read by machines anyway, so what does it matter
if there are 10 or a 100?


> Sharon 

Andy


> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com] 
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 1:14 PM
> To: Chisholm, Sharon (CAR:ZZ00)
> Cc: Phil Shafer; Martin Bjorklund; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
> 
> Sharon Chisholm wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> The alternative is to have way too much granularity in capability 
>> definitions . I think the current method of using the existing :xpath 
>> advertisers makes the most sense.  Really, once an implementation 
>> supports XPath for one (or 56 features), the cost of supporting xpath 
>> for a single new capability is not the same as supporting it for the 
>> first capability.
>>
>> And should some new fancier version of XPath ever come out, we can 
>> just create a new capability :xpath-fancy without having (3*57)
> capabilities.
> 
> I think Phil's proposal to make this a YANG feature is the right choice,
> but if the NETMOD dependency is unacceptable, then a new capability is
> needed instead.
> 
> It is a big deal to keep piling on an existing capability.
> The WG decided to make some functionality optional, so it should be
> optional.
> 
> Consider an agent implementation with sub-agents or even pluggable YANG
> modules, so module X is written with no knowledge of module Y.
> An NMS application relies on module X support of :xpath capability.
> Now a new module (partial-lock) is added and a different NMS app is used
> to control it.  Except the new module, being rushed to market, is a
> bare-bones compliant implementation with no extras.
> 
> The vendor is now hosed one way or another.
> Either advertise :xpath so the first app does not break, or NOT
> advertise :xpath so the 2nd app does not break.
> 
> 
>> Sharon
> 
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Phil Shafer
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:27 PM
>> To: Martin Bjorklund
>> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
>>
>> Martin Bjorklund writes:
>>> Of course the WG could change its mind, but since we already have 
>>> started to reuse the :xpath capability like this, I prefer to be 
>>> consistent and resue it also for partial locks.
>> So in a few years, the :xpath capbility will be reused for the 57th 
>> time in some new YANG module.  An implementor will need to decide if 
>> they can afford to support the new module, given that they supported 
>> :xpath on one of the 56 earlier uses.
>>
>> This forces all-or-nothing decisions that I'd like to avoid and even 
>> if we've made this mistake once, that should be enough.  I'd vote for 
>> sanity over consistency.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>  Phil
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
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Sharon Chisholm wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Doesn't that violate the separation of the protocol from the data model?

No, because the feature is defined as "XPath 1.0 support for partial-lock",
which puts it in the operations layer, not the protocol layer.

> How does this work for all the implementations that don't currently
> support yang?
> 

An agent does not need to support YANG to construct a capability URI
with an extra "?features=xpath-lock" on the end of it.  But using a YANG feature
is not important enough to wait on the normative reference.

A separate capability is fine.  So far there are a handful of
standard capabilities and adding 1 more will not hurt.
There are read by machines anyway, so what does it matter
if there are 10 or a 100?


> Sharon 

Andy


> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com] 
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 1:14 PM
> To: Chisholm, Sharon (CAR:ZZ00)
> Cc: Phil Shafer; Martin Bjorklund; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
> 
> Sharon Chisholm wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> The alternative is to have way too much granularity in capability 
>> definitions . I think the current method of using the existing :xpath 
>> advertisers makes the most sense.  Really, once an implementation 
>> supports XPath for one (or 56 features), the cost of supporting xpath 
>> for a single new capability is not the same as supporting it for the 
>> first capability.
>>
>> And should some new fancier version of XPath ever come out, we can 
>> just create a new capability :xpath-fancy without having (3*57)
> capabilities.
> 
> I think Phil's proposal to make this a YANG feature is the right choice,
> but if the NETMOD dependency is unacceptable, then a new capability is
> needed instead.
> 
> It is a big deal to keep piling on an existing capability.
> The WG decided to make some functionality optional, so it should be
> optional.
> 
> Consider an agent implementation with sub-agents or even pluggable YANG
> modules, so module X is written with no knowledge of module Y.
> An NMS application relies on module X support of :xpath capability.
> Now a new module (partial-lock) is added and a different NMS app is used
> to control it.  Except the new module, being rushed to market, is a
> bare-bones compliant implementation with no extras.
> 
> The vendor is now hosed one way or another.
> Either advertise :xpath so the first app does not break, or NOT
> advertise :xpath so the 2nd app does not break.
> 
> 
>> Sharon
> 
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Phil Shafer
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:27 PM
>> To: Martin Bjorklund
>> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] features and capabilities
>>
>> Martin Bjorklund writes:
>>> Of course the WG could change its mind, but since we already have 
>>> started to reuse the :xpath capability like this, I prefer to be 
>>> consistent and resue it also for partial locks.
>> So in a few years, the :xpath capbility will be reused for the 57th 
>> time in some new YANG module.  An implementor will need to decide if 
>> they can afford to support the new module, given that they supported 
>> :xpath on one of the 56 earlier uses.
>>
>> This forces all-or-nothing decisions that I'd like to avoid and even 
>> if we've made this mistake once, that should be enough.  I'd vote for 
>> sanity over consistency.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>  Phil
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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Your WG chairs have come to the conclusion that we do NOT HAVE (even =
ROUGH) consensus
as to what to do in this space. So for now we are putting aside this =
topic and will not
include it in our considerations for new work.

If people still feel this is urgently needed, they can continue to write =
indivudial I-Ds that
show what sort of things they want to do.

Bert and Mehmet.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Bert Wijnen (IETF)=20
  To: Netconf=20
  Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 12:35 PM
  Subject: [Netconf] Calrification: confirm WG consensus on potential =
new WGwork-item:notification


  Dear Netconf WG participants,

  It seems that some people who expressed their opinion in our sesion at =

  IETF73
  are changing their minds. And some people who did express their =
opinion are
  doing so again here on the mailing list.

  Since we only counted the number of people in favor or against this=20
  work-item
  and since we did NOT write down names, it becomes difficult to judge
  (rough) consensus. So to make that easier, we ask EVERYONE to
  express their opinion on the mailing list again, ALSO those who =
already did
  so at our session in Minneapolis.

  Bert and Mehmet

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Bert Wijnen (IETF)
  To: Netconf
  Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:56 PM
  Subject: [Netconf] confirm WG consensus on potential new WG=20
  work-item:notification


  WG participants,

  At our NetConf Session at IETF73, the people in the room expressed =
strong
  support for the following statements:

    - We do not want to define extensive Notification content NOW
    - We just want to define content for notifications that we URGENTLY
      need now (within the next year). That is one or two notifications
    - Less urgent notification content we can define once the NETMOD
      results become available

  The WG chairs consider this to be WG consensus. If anyone on the =
mailing
  list does not agree, please speak up before Dec 3rd 2008.  That is one =
week.
  We want to try and get updated charter to IESG before X-mas.

  The WG chairs do not want to consider
  draft-chisholm-netconf-not-content-00.txt
  as a starting point. The reason being that it wants to do much more =
than the
  minimal approach that is expressed above.

  The WG chairs will propose/draft new charter text that we will =
circulate
  for consensus checking. Once we have such a draft text, we will also
  call for volunteers to become editors of the document.

  Bert and Mehmet=20


  _______________________________________________
  Netconf mailing list
  Netconf@ietf.org
  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Your WG chairs have come to the conclusion that we =
do NOT HAVE=20
(even ROUGH) consensus</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>as to what to do in this space. So for now we are =
putting=20
aside this topic and will not</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>include it in our considerations for new =
work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If people still feel this is urgently needed, they =
can=20
continue to write indivudial I-Ds that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>show what sort of things they want to =
do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert and Mehmet.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dbertietf@bwijnen.net =
href=3D"mailto:bertietf@bwijnen.net">Bert Wijnen=20
  (IETF)</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =

  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">Netconf</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 27, =
2008 12:35=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Netconf] =
Calrification: confirm=20
  WG consensus on potential new WGwork-item:notification</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Dear Netconf WG participants,<BR><BR>It seems that some =
people=20
  who expressed their opinion in our sesion at <BR>IETF73<BR>are =
changing their=20
  minds. And some people who did express their opinion are<BR>doing so =
again=20
  here on the mailing list.<BR><BR>Since we only counted the number of =
people in=20
  favor or against this <BR>work-item<BR>and since we did NOT write down =
names,=20
  it becomes difficult to judge<BR>(rough) consensus. So to make that =
easier, we=20
  ask EVERYONE to<BR>express their opinion on the mailing list again, =
ALSO those=20
  who already did<BR>so at our session in Minneapolis.<BR><BR>Bert and=20
  Mehmet<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: Bert Wijnen =
(IETF)<BR>To:=20
  Netconf<BR>Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:56 PM<BR>Subject: =
[Netconf]=20
  confirm WG consensus on potential new WG=20
  <BR>work-item:notification<BR><BR><BR>WG participants,<BR><BR>At our =
NetConf=20
  Session at IETF73, the people in the room expressed strong<BR>support =
for the=20
  following statements:<BR><BR>&nbsp; - We do not want to define =
extensive=20
  Notification content NOW<BR>&nbsp; - We just want to define content =
for=20
  notifications that we URGENTLY<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; need now (within =
the next=20
  year). That is one or two notifications<BR>&nbsp; - Less urgent =
notification=20
  content we can define once the NETMOD<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; results =
become=20
  available<BR><BR>The WG chairs consider this to be WG consensus. If =
anyone on=20
  the mailing<BR>list does not agree, please speak up before Dec 3rd =
2008.&nbsp;=20
  That is one week.<BR>We want to try and get updated charter to IESG =
before=20
  X-mas.<BR><BR>The WG chairs do not want to=20
  consider<BR>draft-chisholm-netconf-not-content-00.txt<BR>as a starting =
point.=20
  The reason being that it wants to do much more than the<BR>minimal =
approach=20
  that is expressed above.<BR><BR>The WG chairs will propose/draft new =
charter=20
  text that we will circulate<BR>for consensus checking. Once we have =
such a=20
  draft text, we will also<BR>call for volunteers to become editors of =
the=20
  document.<BR><BR>Bert and Mehmet=20
  <BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Netconf =
mailing=20
  list<BR><A href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</A><BR><A =

  =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

--===============1948065940==--



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Your WG chairs have come to the conclusion that we do NOT HAVE (even =
ROUGH) consensus
as to what to do in this space. So for now we are putting aside this =
topic and will not
include it in our considerations for new work.

If people still feel this is urgently needed, they can continue to write =
indivudial I-Ds that
show what sort of things they want to do.

Bert and Mehmet.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Bert Wijnen (IETF)=20
  To: Netconf=20
  Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 12:35 PM
  Subject: [Netconf] Calrification: confirm WG consensus on potential =
new WGwork-item:notification


  Dear Netconf WG participants,

  It seems that some people who expressed their opinion in our sesion at =

  IETF73
  are changing their minds. And some people who did express their =
opinion are
  doing so again here on the mailing list.

  Since we only counted the number of people in favor or against this=20
  work-item
  and since we did NOT write down names, it becomes difficult to judge
  (rough) consensus. So to make that easier, we ask EVERYONE to
  express their opinion on the mailing list again, ALSO those who =
already did
  so at our session in Minneapolis.

  Bert and Mehmet

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Bert Wijnen (IETF)
  To: Netconf
  Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:56 PM
  Subject: [Netconf] confirm WG consensus on potential new WG=20
  work-item:notification


  WG participants,

  At our NetConf Session at IETF73, the people in the room expressed =
strong
  support for the following statements:

    - We do not want to define extensive Notification content NOW
    - We just want to define content for notifications that we URGENTLY
      need now (within the next year). That is one or two notifications
    - Less urgent notification content we can define once the NETMOD
      results become available

  The WG chairs consider this to be WG consensus. If anyone on the =
mailing
  list does not agree, please speak up before Dec 3rd 2008.  That is one =
week.
  We want to try and get updated charter to IESG before X-mas.

  The WG chairs do not want to consider
  draft-chisholm-netconf-not-content-00.txt
  as a starting point. The reason being that it wants to do much more =
than the
  minimal approach that is expressed above.

  The WG chairs will propose/draft new charter text that we will =
circulate
  for consensus checking. Once we have such a draft text, we will also
  call for volunteers to become editors of the document.

  Bert and Mehmet=20


  _______________________________________________
  Netconf mailing list
  Netconf@ietf.org
  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Your WG chairs have come to the conclusion that we =
do NOT HAVE=20
(even ROUGH) consensus</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>as to what to do in this space. So for now we are =
putting=20
aside this topic and will not</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>include it in our considerations for new =
work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If people still feel this is urgently needed, they =
can=20
continue to write indivudial I-Ds that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>show what sort of things they want to =
do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert and Mehmet.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dbertietf@bwijnen.net =
href=3D"mailto:bertietf@bwijnen.net">Bert Wijnen=20
  (IETF)</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =

  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">Netconf</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 27, =
2008 12:35=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Netconf] =
Calrification: confirm=20
  WG consensus on potential new WGwork-item:notification</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Dear Netconf WG participants,<BR><BR>It seems that some =
people=20
  who expressed their opinion in our sesion at <BR>IETF73<BR>are =
changing their=20
  minds. And some people who did express their opinion are<BR>doing so =
again=20
  here on the mailing list.<BR><BR>Since we only counted the number of =
people in=20
  favor or against this <BR>work-item<BR>and since we did NOT write down =
names,=20
  it becomes difficult to judge<BR>(rough) consensus. So to make that =
easier, we=20
  ask EVERYONE to<BR>express their opinion on the mailing list again, =
ALSO those=20
  who already did<BR>so at our session in Minneapolis.<BR><BR>Bert and=20
  Mehmet<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: Bert Wijnen =
(IETF)<BR>To:=20
  Netconf<BR>Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:56 PM<BR>Subject: =
[Netconf]=20
  confirm WG consensus on potential new WG=20
  <BR>work-item:notification<BR><BR><BR>WG participants,<BR><BR>At our =
NetConf=20
  Session at IETF73, the people in the room expressed strong<BR>support =
for the=20
  following statements:<BR><BR>&nbsp; - We do not want to define =
extensive=20
  Notification content NOW<BR>&nbsp; - We just want to define content =
for=20
  notifications that we URGENTLY<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; need now (within =
the next=20
  year). That is one or two notifications<BR>&nbsp; - Less urgent =
notification=20
  content we can define once the NETMOD<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; results =
become=20
  available<BR><BR>The WG chairs consider this to be WG consensus. If =
anyone on=20
  the mailing<BR>list does not agree, please speak up before Dec 3rd =
2008.&nbsp;=20
  That is one week.<BR>We want to try and get updated charter to IESG =
before=20
  X-mas.<BR><BR>The WG chairs do not want to=20
  consider<BR>draft-chisholm-netconf-not-content-00.txt<BR>as a starting =
point.=20
  The reason being that it wants to do much more than the<BR>minimal =
approach=20
  that is expressed above.<BR><BR>The WG chairs will propose/draft new =
charter=20
  text that we will circulate<BR>for consensus checking. Once we have =
such a=20
  draft text, we will also<BR>call for volunteers to become editors of =
the=20
  document.<BR><BR>Bert and Mehmet=20
  <BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Netconf =
mailing=20
  list<BR><A href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</A><BR><A =

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Hello,
IMHO the length of this discussion alone indicates to me, that it is not trivial to understand 
the lock functionality. (As I remember, Tomasz is not the first one who had 
questions/reservations about the side effects of lock.)
This is the reason why partial-lock does no less and no more then what its name indicates: 
"Lock part of the datastore". I think that is simple to understand.
Balazs

Washam Fan wrote:
>  
>> Another point. If unlock means also copying running->candidate it 
>> means that for any reasons unlock may fail. WhatFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  8 05:43:18 2008
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Hello,
IMHO the length of this discussion alone indicates to me, that it is not trivial to understand 
the lock functionality. (As I remember, Tomasz is not the first one who had 
questions/reservations about the side effects of lock.)
This is the reason why partial-lock does no less and no more then what its name indicates: 
"Lock part of the datastore". I think that is simple to understand.
Balazs

Washam Fan wrote:
>  
>> Another point. If unlock means also copying running->candidate it 
>> means that for any reasons unlock may fail. What's the's then?
>> I expect that unlock must be successful. So does the unlock means 
>> copy running->candidate as much as you can?
> 
> Failed commit means copying running->candidate,too. When users edit-config candidate, they think all the changes they've made on candidate would take effect on running eventually. A inconsistency candidate make no sense, IMHO.
> 
> washam
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 

-- 
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
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n?
>> I expect that unlock must be successful. So does the unlock means 
>> copy running->candidate as much as you can?
> 
> Failed commit means copying running->candidate,too. When users edit-config candidate, they think all the changes they've made on candidate would take effect on running eventually. A inconsistency candidate make no sense, IMHO.
> 
> washam
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 

-- 
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
TSP System Manager
ECN: 831 7320                        Fax: +36 1 4377792
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  8 06:10:10 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Balazs Lengyel wrote:
> Hello,
> IMHO the length of this discussion alone indicates to me, that it is not
> trivial to understand the lock functionality. (As I remember, Tomasz is
> not the first one who had questions/reservations about the side effects
> of lock.)
> This is the reason why partial-lock does no less and no more then what
> its name indicates: "Lock part of the datastore". I think that is simple
> to understand.
> Balazs

But introducing new functionalities will not help when the foundations are not enough strong.

> Washam Fan wrote:
>>  
>>> Another point. If unlock means also copying running->candidate it
>>> means that for any reasons unlock may fail. What's then?
>>> I expect that unlock must be successful. So does the unlock means
>>> copy running->candidate as much as you can?
>>
>> Failed commit means copying running->candidate,too. When users
>> edit-config candidate, they think all the changes they've made on
>> candidate would take effect on running eventually. A inconsistency
>> candidate make no sense, IMHO.
>>
>> washam
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>
> 

Tomasz

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References: <200812021837.mB2IbnT9002400@idle.juniper.net>	<4937A1F5.40602@s3group.com>	<fd118f784bc6.4bc6fd118f78@huawei.com>	<4938E190.8010001@s3group.com>	<20081205082438.GB13137@elstar.local>	<4938EB27.2000507@s3group.com>	<20081205090021.GA13293@elstar.local>	<4938F2DB.2000609@s3group.com>	<20081205093129.GA13321@elstar.local>	<49390029.6020307@s3group.com>	<fd11a85758da.58dafd11a857@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] lock/unlock on candidate
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Balazs Lengyel wrote:
> Hello,
> IMHO the length of this discussion alone indicates to me, that it is not
> trivial to understand the lock functionality. (As I remember, Tomasz is
> not the first one who had questions/reservations about the side effects
> of lock.)
> This is the reason why partial-lock does no less and no more then what
> its name indicates: "Lock part of the datastore". I think that is simple
> to understand.
> Balazs

But introducing new functionalities will not help when the foundations are not enough strong.

> Washam Fan wrote:
>>  
>>> Another point. If unlock means also copying running->candidate it
>>> means that for any reasons unlock may fail. What's then?
>>> I expect that unlock must be successful. So does the unlock means
>>> copy running->candidate as much as you can?
>>
>> Failed commit means copying running->candidate,too. When users
>> edit-config candidate, they think all the changes they've made on
>> candidate would take effect on running eventually. A inconsistency
>> candidate make no sense, IMHO.
>>
>> washam
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>
> 

Tomasz

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Balazs Lengyel writes:
>"Lock part of the datastore". I think that is simple to understand.

The statement is simple, but the implications are the source
of the issues.

Thanks,
 Phil
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Balazs Lengyel writes:
>"Lock part of the datastore". I think that is simple to understand.

The statement is simple, but the implications are the source
of the issues.

Thanks,
 Phil
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>>>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:25:46 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:

AB> We have attributes in the <rpc> element so we
AB> need a CLR that says "]]>]]>" is not allowed
AB> to appear anywhere inside a NETCONF PDU.

It'd be a nasty security bug if the EOM marker could be inserted as
valid text inside XML.  If indeed the XML directorate was wrong at the
time that advice was given, you definitely need that CLR.  Otherwise you
risk the possibility of non-privileged users providing the system with
text that includes that marker followed by a complete edit-config
command and another proper marker.
-- 
"In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap,
 and much more difficult to find."  -- Terry Pratchett
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>>>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:25:46 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:

AB> We have attributes in the <rpc> element so we
AB> need a CLR that says "]]>]]>" is not allowed
AB> to appear anywhere inside a NETCONF PDU.

It'd be a nasty security bug if the EOM marker could be inserted as
valid text inside XML.  If indeed the XML directorate was wrong at the
time that advice was given, you definitely need that CLR.  Otherwise you
risk the possibility of non-privileged users providing the system with
text that includes that marker followed by a complete edit-config
command and another proper marker.
-- 
"In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap,
 and much more difficult to find."  -- Terry Pratchett
_______________________________________________
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>
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On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 08:15:32AM -0800, Wes Hardaker wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:25:46 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
> 
> AB> We have attributes in the <rpc> element so we
> AB> need a CLR that says "]]>]]>" is not allowed
> AB> to appear anywhere inside a NETCONF PDU.
> 
> It'd be a nasty security bug if the EOM marker could be inserted as
> valid text inside XML.  If indeed the XML directorate was wrong at the
> time that advice was given, you definitely need that CLR.  Otherwise you
> risk the possibility of non-privileged users providing the system with
> text that includes that marker followed by a complete edit-config
> command and another proper marker.

I do not think we can ban "]]>]]>" from ever appearing in NETCONF
messages, especially if we talk about user provided data.

So we need to fix the protocol specifications and the relevant
security considerations by making it clear that implementors must not
fall into the trap of treating "]]>]]>" inside of messages as an EOM
marker. This implies that the EOM marker looses most of its value
since I need to parse the message to find its end but at the end this
is better than pretending "]]>]]>" never appears in valid NETCONF
messages.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
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On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 08:15:32AM -0800, Wes Hardaker wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:25:46 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
> 
> AB> We have attributes in the <rpc> element so we
> AB> need a CLR that says "]]>]]>" is not allowed
> AB> to appear anywhere inside a NETCONF PDU.
> 
> It'd be a nasty security bug if the EOM marker could be inserted as
> valid text inside XML.  If indeed the XML directorate was wrong at the
> time that advice was given, you definitely need that CLR.  Otherwise you
> risk the possibility of non-privileged users providing the system with
> text that includes that marker followed by a complete edit-config
> command and another proper marker.

I do not think we can ban "]]>]]>" from ever appearing in NETCONF
messages, especially if we talk about user provided data.

So we need to fix the protocol specifications and the relevant
security considerations by making it clear that implementors must not
fall into the trap of treating "]]>]]>" inside of messages as an EOM
marker. This implies that the EOM marker looses most of its value
since I need to parse the message to find its end but at the end this
is better than pretending "]]>]]>" never appears in valid NETCONF
messages.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:25:46 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
> 
> AB> We have attributes in the <rpc> element so we
> AB> need a CLR that says "]]>]]>" is not allowed
> AB> to appear anywhere inside a NETCONF PDU.
> 
> It'd be a nasty security bug if the EOM marker could be inserted as
> valid text inside XML.  If indeed the XML directorate was wrong at the
> time that advice was given, you definitely need that CLR.  Otherwise you
> risk the possibility of non-privileged users providing the system with
> text that includes that marker followed by a complete edit-config
> command and another proper marker.

yep.

This would be a non-compatible change.
It requires a new RFC and 4741 changed to Historic.
Recall that the reason we put this in 4741 was
that it was deemed to be unreasonable to parse XML
to do the framing.  All it takes is 1 bad element
and framing is lost.  Requiring an agent to parse
through all processing instructions, comments, etc.
and 'guess' where the 'good' XML starts again is too
difficult.



Andy




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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:25:46 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
> 
> AB> We have attributes in the <rpc> element so we
> AB> need a CLR that says "]]>]]>" is not allowed
> AB> to appear anywhere inside a NETCONF PDU.
> 
> It'd be a nasty security bug if the EOM marker could be inserted as
> valid text inside XML.  If indeed the XML directorate was wrong at the
> time that advice was given, you definitely need that CLR.  Otherwise you
> risk the possibility of non-privileged users providing the system with
> text that includes that marker followed by a complete edit-config
> command and another proper marker.

yep.

This would be a non-compatible change.
It requires a new RFC and 4741 changed to Historic.
Recall that the reason we put this in 4741 was
that it was deemed to be unreasonable to parse XML
to do the framing.  All it takes is 1 bad element
and framing is lost.  Requiring an agent to parse
through all processing instructions, comments, etc.
and 'guess' where the 'good' XML starts again is too
difficult.



Andy




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Netconf mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:25:46 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
> 
> AB> We have attributes in the <rpc> element so we
> AB> need a CLR that says "]]>]]>" is not allowed
> AB> to appear anywhere inside a NETCONF PDU.
> 
> It'd be a nasty security bug if the EOM marker could be inserted as
> valid text inside XML.  If indeed the XML directorate was wrong at the
> time that advice was given, you definitely need that CLR.  Otherwise you
> risk the possibility of non-privileged users providing the system with
> text that includes that marker followed by a complete edit-config
> command and another proper marker.

Actually it depends on the implementation, if this is even a
problem or not.  Since the framing is done on the SSH byte stream,
none of the per-NETCONF-PDU security checks have likely been started yet.
In my code, embedding PDUs in an attribute might result in
bad-msg1, good-msg2, bad-msg3.  The 'good-msg2' would have to
go through all of the security checks it would have faced
if it was the entire message.



Andy

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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:25:46 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
> 
> AB> We have attributes in the <rpc> element so we
> AB> need a CLR that says "]]>]]>" is not allowed
> AB> to appear anywhere inside a NETCONF PDU.
> 
> It'd be a nasty security bug if the EOM marker could be inserted as
> valid text inside XML.  If indeed the XML directorate was wrong at the
> time that advice was given, you definitely need that CLR.  Otherwise you
> risk the possibility of non-privileged users providing the system with
> text that includes that marker followed by a complete edit-config
> command and another proper marker.

Actually it depends on the implementation, if this is even a
problem or not.  Since the framing is done on the SSH byte stream,
none of the per-NETCONF-PDU security checks have likely been started yet.
In my code, embedding PDUs in an attribute might result in
bad-msg1, good-msg2, bad-msg3.  The 'good-msg2' would have to
go through all of the security checks it would have faced
if it was the entire message.



Andy

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  8 10:10:09 2008
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Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 08:15:32AM -0800, Wes Hardaker wrote:
> > >>>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:25:46 -0800, Andy Bierman
> > >>>>> <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
> > 
> > AB> We have attributes in the <rpc> element so we
> > AB> need a CLR that says "]]>]]>" is not allowed
> > AB> to appear anywhere inside a NETCONF PDU.
> > 
> > It'd be a nasty security bug if the EOM marker could be inserted as
> > valid text inside XML.  If indeed the XML directorate was wrong at the
> > time that advice was given, you definitely need that CLR.  Otherwise you
> > risk the possibility of non-privileged users providing the system with
> > text that includes that marker followed by a complete edit-config
> > command and another proper marker.
> 
> I do not think we can ban "]]>]]>" from ever appearing in NETCONF
> messages, especially if we talk about user provided data.

We talk about attributes (and comments).  The sequence is not allowed
in text data in elements.

Maybe we can say that implementations must quote it and send

  <foo x="]]&gt;]]&gt;"/>

instead of

  <foo x="]]>]]>"/>


/martin
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Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 08:15:32AM -0800, Wes Hardaker wrote:
> > >>>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:25:46 -0800, Andy Bierman
> > >>>>> <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
> > 
> > AB> We have attributes in the <rpc> element so we
> > AB> need a CLR that says "]]>]]>" is not allowed
> > AB> to appear anywhere inside a NETCONF PDU.
> > 
> > It'd be a nasty security bug if the EOM marker could be inserted as
> > valid text inside XML.  If indeed the XML directorate was wrong at the
> > time that advice was given, you definitely need that CLR.  Otherwise you
> > risk the possibility of non-privileged users providing the system with
> > text that includes that marker followed by a complete edit-config
> > command and another proper marker.
> 
> I do not think we can ban "]]>]]>" from ever appearing in NETCONF
> messages, especially if we talk about user provided data.

We talk about attributes (and comments).  The sequence is not allowed
in text data in elements.

Maybe we can say that implementations must quote it and send

  <foo x="]]&gt;]]&gt;"/>

instead of

  <foo x="]]>]]>"/>


/martin
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On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 08:53:21AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> This would be a non-compatible change.
> It requires a new RFC and 4741 changed to Historic.

The framing sequence ]]>]]> is a property of NETCONF over SSH and so
RFC 4742 is concerned, not RFC 4741.

> Recall that the reason we put this in 4741 was
> that it was deemed to be unreasonable to parse XML
> to do the framing.  All it takes is 1 bad element
> and framing is lost.  Requiring an agent to parse
> through all processing instructions, comments, etc.
> and 'guess' where the 'good' XML starts again is too
> difficult.

I believe when RFC 4742 was designed, people thought they can get away
with an non-event-driven XML parser, but it now appears that the EOM
sequence is not as good as we believed back then.

And yes, not well-formed XML kills you and the only sensible reaction
is IMHO to close the session. And this not different with other
encodings; if you send multiple BER encoded PDUs over a stream based
connection (e.g. SNMP over TCP or SSH), you face the same problem when
you hit a parsing error. Since XML is so much easier than BER, hitting
non well-formed XML documents should be rare in practice. ;-)

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 08:53:21AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> This would be a non-compatible change.
> It requires a new RFC and 4741 changed to Historic.

The framing sequence ]]>]]> is a property of NETCONF over SSH and so
RFC 4742 is concerned, not RFC 4741.

> Recall that the reason we put this in 4741 was
> that it was deemed to be unreasonable to parse XML
> to do the framing.  All it takes is 1 bad element
> and framing is lost.  Requiring an agent to parse
> through all processing instructions, comments, etc.
> and 'guess' where the 'good' XML starts again is too
> difficult.

I believe when RFC 4742 was designed, people thought they can get away
with an non-event-driven XML parser, but it now appears that the EOM
sequence is not as good as we believed back then.

And yes, not well-formed XML kills you and the only sensible reaction
is IMHO to close the session. And this not different with other
encodings; if you send multiple BER encoded PDUs over a stream based
connection (e.g. SNMP over TCP or SSH), you face the same problem when
you hit a parsing error. Since XML is so much easier than BER, hitting
non well-formed XML documents should be rare in practice. ;-)

/js

-- 
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On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 09:07:51AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> Actually it depends on the implementation, if this is even a
> problem or not.  Since the framing is done on the SSH byte stream,
> none of the per-NETCONF-PDU security checks have likely been started yet.
> In my code, embedding PDUs in an attribute might result in
> bad-msg1, good-msg2, bad-msg3.  The 'good-msg2' would have to
> go through all of the security checks it would have faced
> if it was the entire message.

It can imagine a situation where a NETCONF client is trusted and has
credentials installed on the server to do certaiFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  8 10:38:40 2008
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On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 09:07:51AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> Actually it depends on the implementation, if this is even a
> problem or not.  Since the framing is done on the SSH byte stream,
> none of the per-NETCONF-PDU security checks have likely been started yet.
> In my code, embedding PDUs in an attribute might result in
> bad-msg1, good-msg2, bad-msg3.  The 'good-msg2' would have to
> go through all of the security checks it would have faced
> if it was the entire message.

It can imagine a situation where a NETCONF client is trusted and has
credentials installed on the server to do n useful things. If
now someone manages to send carefully crafted input to this client
resulting in bad-msg1, good-msg2, bad-msg3, then the good-msg2 might
be executed with rights it should not receive. Sure, you can argue
that the server is not to blame since the client did allow something
to slip through it should not have allowed. But then there is also
some evidence from the Web that this sort of stuff causes security
problems and the question is whether we want to be proactive or
whether we are willing to wait for a CERT advisory.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
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certain useful things. If
now someone manages to send carefully crafted input to this client
resulting in bad-msg1, good-msg2, bad-msg3, then the good-msg2 might
be executed with rights it should not receive. Sure, you can argue
that the server is not to blame since the client did allow something
to slip through it should not have allowed. But then there is also
some evidence from the Web that this sort of stuff causes security
problems and the question is whether we want to be proactive or
whether we are willing to wait for a CERT advisory.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec  8 10:42:47 2008
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 08:15:32AM -0800, Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:25:46 -0800, Andy Bierman
>>>>>>>> <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
>>> AB> We have attributes in the <rpc> element so we
>>> AB> need a CLR that says "]]>]]>" is not allowed
>>> AB> to appear anywhere inside a NETCONF PDU.
>>>
>>> It'd be a nasty security bug if the EOM marker could be inserted as
>>> valid text inside XML.  If indeed the XML directorate was wrong at the
>>> time that advice was given, you definitely need that CLR.  Otherwise you
>>> risk the possibility of non-privileged users providing the system with
>>> text that includes that marker followed by a complete edit-config
>>> command and another proper marker.
>> I do not think we can ban "]]>]]>" from ever appearing in NETCONF
>> messages, especially if we talk about user provided data.
> 
> We talk about attributes (and comments).  The sequence is not allowed
> in text data in elements.
> 
> Maybe we can say that implementations must quote it and send
> 
>   <foo x="]]&gt;]]&gt;"/>
> 
> instead of
> 
>   <foo x="]]>]]>"/>
> 

I was going to point this out.
The '>' char cannot appear at all within a text() node.
It has to be written as a character entity.

I don't think this is a big deal.  Should we
worry about comment nodes?

The client implementation that generated the EOM sequence
inside an attribute value is broken, right?

> 
> /martin


Andy

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 08:15:32AM -0800, Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:25:46 -0800, Andy Bierman
>>>>>>>> <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
>>> AB> We have attributes in the <rpc> element so we
>>> AB> need a CLR that says "]]>]]>" is not allowed
>>> AB> to appear anywhere inside a NETCONF PDU.
>>>
>>> It'd be a nasty security bug if the EOM marker could be inserted as
>>> valid text inside XML.  If indeed the XML directorate was wrong at the
>>> time that advice was given, you definitely need that CLR.  Otherwise you
>>> risk the possibility of non-privileged users providing the system with
>>> text that includes that marker followed by a complete edit-config
>>> command and another proper marker.
>> I do not think we can ban "]]>]]>" from ever appearing in NETCONF
>> messages, especially if we talk about user provided data.
> 
> We talk about attributes (and comments).  The sequence is not allowed
> in text data in elements.
> 
> Maybe we can say that implementations must quote it and send
> 
>   <foo x="]]&gt;]]&gt;"/>
> 
> instead of
> 
>   <foo x="]]>]]>"/>
> 

I was going to point this out.
The '>' char cannot appear at all within a text() node.
It has to be written as a character entity.

I don't think this is a big deal.  Should we
worry about comment nodes?

The client implementation that generated the EOM sequence
inside an attribute value is broken, right?

> 
> /martin


Andy

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 09:07:51AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
>> Actually it depends on the implementation, if this is even a
>> problem or not.  Since the framing is done on the SSH byte stream,
>> none of the per-NETCONF-PDU security checks have likely been started yet.
>> In my code, embedding PDUs in an attribute might result in
>> bad-msg1, good-msg2, bad-msg3.  The 'good-msg2' would have to
>> go through all of the security checks it would have faced
>> if it was the entire message.
> 
> It can imagine a situation where a NETCONF client is trusted and has
> credentials installed on the server to do certain useful things. If
> now someone manages to send carefully crafted input to this client
> resulting in bad-msg1, good-msg2, bad-msg3, then the good-msg2 might
> be executed with rights it should not receive. Sure, you can argue
> that the server is not to blame since the client did allow something
> to slip through it should not have allowed. But then there is also
> some evidence from the Web that this sort of stuff causes security
> problems and the question is whether we want to be proactive or
> whether we are willing to wait for a CERT advisory.
> 

There is certainly a Trojan horse vulnerability on the client side.
If the access control (oh, that again!) is really loose on the
agent, then an application may be hijacked to invoke RPCs
that the agent will allow.

> /js
> 

Andy

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 09:07:51AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
>> Actually it depends on the implementation, if this is even a
>> problem or not.  Since the framing is done on the SSH byte stream,
>> none of the per-NETCONF-PDU security checks have likely been started yet.
>> In my code, embedding PDUs in an attribute might result in
>> bad-msg1, good-msg2, bad-msg3.  The 'good-msg2' would have to
>> go through all of the security checks it would have faced
>> if it was the entire message.
> 
> It can imagine a situation where a NETCONF client is trusted and has
> credentials installed on the server to do certain useful things. If
> now someone manages to send carefully crafted input to this client
> resulting in bad-msg1, good-msg2, bad-msg3, then the good-msg2 might
> be executed with rights it should not receive. Sure, you can argue
> that the server is not to blame since the client did allow something
> to slip through it should not have allowed. But then there is also
> some evidence from the Web that this sort of stuff causes security
> problems and the question is whether we want to be proactive or
> whether we are willing to wait for a CERT advisory.
> 

There is certainly a Trojan horse vulnerability on the client side.
If the access control (oh, that again!) is really loose on the
agent, then an application may be hijacked to invoke RPCs
that the agent will allow.

> /js
> 

Andy

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From: "Bert Wijnen \(IETF\)" <bertietf@bwijnen.net>
To: "Netconf" <netconf@ietf.org>, "Ted Goddard" <ted.goddard@icesoft.com>,
	"Margaret Wasserman" <mrw@lilacglade.org>
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Cc: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com
Subject: [Netconf] Fw: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4742 (1628)
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NETCONF WG members,

We have received the following reported Technical errata.
We have had a few interactions between the authors, WG chairs, AD and =
Pasi.
It seems that the Errata report is indeed correct.
It also seems a bit heavy to issue a new RFC just for this.
So we (WG chairs) are suggesting that Ted and Margaret compose a fix =
(can be
based mainly on the text that Pasi already provided) in the form of:

on page xxxx replace
  =20
    old text

with=20
 =20
   new text

And that we all get a chance on the mailing list to review and comment.
Once we're OK with the text, we can pass it to the RFC-Editor.
And also put it in our queue for the time that rfc4742 needs revision.
Maybve... while we do rfc4741 revision we find other things that could =
also
have an impact on 4742, and we can then decide if that is serious enough =
to
also reissue rfc4742.

So Ted and Marageret, pls send proposed text.

Bert and Mehmet


----- Original Message -----=20
From: RFC Errata System=20
To: margaret@thingmagic.com ; ted.goddard@icesoft.com ; =
dromasca@avaya.com ; rbonica@juniper.net ; bertietf@bwijnen.net ; =
mehmet.ersue@nsn.com=20
Cc: pasi.eronen@nokia.com ; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org=20
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:20 PM
Subject: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4742 (1628)



The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4742,
"Using the NETCONF Configuration Protocol over Secure SHell (SSH)".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4742&eid=3D1628

--------------------------------------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Pasi Eronen <pasi.eronen@nokia.com>

Section: 7

Original Text
-------------
IANA is also requested to assign "netconf" as an SSH Service Name as
defined in [RFC4250], as follows:

         Service Name                  Reference
         -------------                 ---------
         netconf                       RFC 4742


Corrected Text
--------------
IANA is also requested to assign "netconf" as an SSH Connection
Protocol Subsystem Name as defined in [RFC4250], as follows:

         Subsystem Name                Reference
         -------------                 ---------
         netconf                       RFC 4742


Notes
-----
The IANA registry (http://www.iana.org/assignments/ssh-parameters)
also needs to be fixed.

Instructions:
-------------
This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.=20

--------------------------------------
RFC4742 (draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-06)
--------------------------------------
Title               : Using the NETCONF Configuration Protocol over =
Secure SHell (SSH)
Publication Date    : December 2006
Author(s)           : M. Wasserman, T. Goddard
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Network Configuration
Area                : Operations and Management
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
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charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6001.18148" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>NETCONF WG members,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>We have received the following reported Technical=20
errata.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>We have had a few interactions between the authors, =
WG chairs,=20
AD and Pasi.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems that the Errata report is indeed=20
correct.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It also seems a bit heavy to issue a new RFC just =
for=20
this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So we (WG chairs) are suggesting that Ted and =
Margaret compose=20
a fix (can be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>based mainly on the text that Pasi already provided) =
in the=20
form of:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>on page xxxx replace</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; old text</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>with </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; new text</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And that we all get a chance on the mailing list to =
review and=20
comment.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Once we're OK with the text, we can pass it to the=20
RFC-Editor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And also put it in our queue for the time that =
rfc4742 needs=20
revision.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Maybve... while we do rfc4741 revision we find other =
things=20
that could also</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>have an impact on 4742, and we can then decide if =
that is=20
serious enough to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>also reissue rfc4742.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So Ted and Marageret, pls send proposed =
text.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert and Mehmet</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3Drfc-editor@rfc-editor.org =
href=3D"mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org">RFC=20
Errata System</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dmargaret@thingmagic.com=20
href=3D"mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com">margaret@thingmagic.com</A> ; <A =

title=3Dted.goddard@icesoft.com=20
href=3D"mailto:ted.goddard@icesoft.com">ted.goddard@icesoft.com</A> ; <A =

title=3Ddromasca@avaya.com =
href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</A>=20
; <A title=3Drbonica@juniper.net=20
href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net">rbonica@juniper.net</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dbertietf@bwijnen.net=20
href=3D"mailto:bertietf@bwijnen.net">bertietf@bwijnen.net</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dmehmet.ersue@nsn.com=20
href=3D"mailto:mehmet.ersue@nsn.com">mehmet.ersue@nsn.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dpasi.eronen@nokia.com=20
href=3D"mailto:pasi.eronen@nokia.com">pasi.eronen@nokia.com</A> ; <A=20
title=3Drfc-editor@rfc-editor.org=20
href=3D"mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org">rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4742 =
(1628)</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>The following errata report has been submitted for=20
RFC4742,<BR>"Using the NETCONF Configuration Protocol over Secure SHell=20
(SSH)".<BR><BR>--------------------------------------<BR>You may review =
the=20
report below and at:<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4742&amp;eid=3D=
1628">http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4742&amp;eid=3D16=
28</A><BR><BR>--------------------------------------<BR>Type:=20
Technical<BR>Reported by: Pasi Eronen &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:pasi.eronen@nokia.com">pasi.eronen@nokia.com</A>&gt;<BR><B=
R>Section:=20
7<BR><BR>Original Text<BR>-------------<BR>IANA is also requested to =
assign=20
"netconf" as an SSH Service Name as<BR>defined in [RFC4250], as=20
follows:<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Service =

Name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Reference<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
-------------&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
---------<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
netconf&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
RFC 4742<BR><BR><BR>Corrected Text<BR>--------------<BR>IANA is also =
requested=20
to assign "netconf" as an SSH Connection<BR>Protocol Subsystem Name as =
defined=20
in [RFC4250], as=20
follows:<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Subsystem=20
Name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Reference<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
-------------&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
---------<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
netconf&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
RFC 4742<BR><BR><BR>Notes<BR>-----<BR>The IANA registry (<A=20
href=3D"http://www.iana.org/assignments/ssh-parameters">http://www.iana.o=
rg/assignments/ssh-parameters</A>)<BR>also=20
needs to be fixed.<BR><BR>Instructions:<BR>-------------<BR>This errata =
is=20
currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please<BR>use "Reply All" =
to=20
discuss whether it should be verified or<BR>rejected. When a decision is =

reached, the verifying party (IESG)<BR>can log in to change the status =
and edit=20
the report, if necessary.=20
<BR><BR>--------------------------------------<BR>RFC4742=20
(draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-06)<BR>--------------------------------------<BR>=
Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
: Using the NETCONF Configuration Protocol over Secure SHell=20
(SSH)<BR>Publication Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : December=20
2006<BR>Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; :=20
M. Wasserman, T.=20
Goddard<BR>Category&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
: PROPOSED=20
STANDARD<BR>Source&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
: Network=20
Configuration<BR>Area&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
: Operations and=20
Management<BR>Stream&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
: IETF<BR>Verifying Party&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : =
IESG<BR></BODY></HTML>

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To: "Netconf" <netconf@ietf.org>, "Ted Goddard" <ted.goddard@icesoft.com>,
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Cc: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com
Subject: [Netconf] Fw: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4742 (1628)
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NETCONF WG members,

We have received the following reported Technical errata.
We have had a few interactions between the authors, WG chairs, AD and =
Pasi.
It seems that the Errata report is indeed correct.
It also seems a bit heavy to issue a new RFC just for this.
So we (WG chairs) are suggesting that Ted and Margaret compose a fix =
(can be
based mainly on the text that Pasi already provided) in the form of:

on page xxxx replace
  =20
    old text

with=20
 =20
   new text

And that we all get a chance on the mailing list to review and comment.
Once we're OK with the text, we can pass it to the RFC-Editor.
And also put it in our queue for the time that rfc4742 needs revision.
Maybve... while we do rfc4741 revision we find other things that could =
also
have an impact on 4742, and we can then decide if that is serious enough =
to
also reissue rfc4742.

So Ted and Marageret, pls send proposed text.

Bert and Mehmet


----- Original Message -----=20
From: RFC Errata System=20
To: margaret@thingmagic.com ; ted.goddard@icesoft.com ; =
dromasca@avaya.com ; rbonica@juniper.net ; bertietf@bwijnen.net ; =
mehmet.ersue@nsn.com=20
Cc: pasi.eronen@nokia.com ; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org=20
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:20 PM
Subject: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4742 (1628)



The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4742,
"Using the NETCONF Configuration Protocol over Secure SHell (SSH)".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4742&eid=3D1628

--------------------------------------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Pasi Eronen <pasi.eronen@nokia.com>

Section: 7

Original Text
-------------
IANA is also requested to assign "netconf" as an SSH Service Name as
defined in [RFC4250], as follows:

         Service Name                  Reference
         -------------                 ---------
         netconf                       RFC 4742


Corrected Text
--------------
IANA is also requested to assign "netconf" as an SSH Connection
Protocol Subsystem Name as defined in [RFC4250], as follows:

         Subsystem Name                Reference
         -------------                 ---------
         netconf                       RFC 4742


Notes
-----
The IANA registry (http://www.iana.org/assignments/ssh-parameters)
also needs to be fixed.

Instructions:
-------------
This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.=20

--------------------------------------
RFC4742 (draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-06)
--------------------------------------
Title               : Using the NETCONF Configuration Protocol over =
Secure SHell (SSH)
Publication Date    : December 2006
Author(s)           : M. Wasserman, T. Goddard
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Network Configuration
Area                : Operations and Management
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>NETCONF WG members,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>We have received the following reported Technical=20
errata.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>We have had a few interactions between the authors, =
WG chairs,=20
AD and Pasi.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems that the Errata report is indeed=20
correct.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It also seems a bit heavy to issue a new RFC just =
for=20
this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So we (WG chairs) are suggesting that Ted and =
Margaret compose=20
a fix (can be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>based mainly on the text that Pasi already provided) =
in the=20
form of:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>on page xxxx replace</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; old text</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>with </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; new text</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And that we all get a chance on the mailing list to =
review and=20
comment.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Once we're OK with the text, we can pass it to the=20
RFC-Editor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And also put it in our queue for the time that =
rfc4742 needs=20
revision.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Maybve... while we do rfc4741 revision we find other =
things=20
that could also</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>have an impact on 4742, and we can then decide if =
that is=20
serious enough to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>also reissue rfc4742.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So Ted and Marageret, pls send proposed =
text.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert and Mehmet</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3Drfc-editor@rfc-editor.org =
href=3D"mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org">RFC=20
Errata System</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dmargaret@thingmagic.com=20
href=3D"mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com">margaret@thingmagic.com</A> ; <A =

title=3Dted.goddard@icesoft.com=20
href=3D"mailto:ted.goddard@icesoft.com">ted.goddard@icesoft.com</A> ; <A =

title=3Ddromasca@avaya.com =
href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</A>=20
; <A title=3Drbonica@juniper.net=20
href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net">rbonica@juniper.net</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dbertietf@bwijnen.net=20
href=3D"mailto:bertietf@bwijnen.net">bertietf@bwijnen.net</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dmehmet.ersue@nsn.com=20
href=3D"mailto:mehmet.ersue@nsn.com">mehmet.ersue@nsn.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dpasi.eronen@nokia.com=20
href=3D"mailto:pasi.eronen@nokia.com">pasi.eronen@nokia.com</A> ; <A=20
title=3Drfc-editor@rfc-editor.org=20
href=3D"mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org">rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4742 =
(1628)</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>The following errata report has been submitted for=20
RFC4742,<BR>"Using the NETCONF Configuration Protocol over Secure SHell=20
(SSH)".<BR><BR>--------------------------------------<BR>You may review =
the=20
report below and at:<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4742&amp;eid=3D=
1628">http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4742&amp;eid=3D16=
28</A><BR><BR>--------------------------------------<BR>Type:=20
Technical<BR>Reported by: Pasi Eronen &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:pasi.eronen@nokia.com">pasi.eronen@nokia.com</A>&gt;<BR><B=
R>Section:=20
7<BR><BR>Original Text<BR>-------------<BR>IANA is also requested to =
assign=20
"netconf" as an SSH Service Name as<BR>defined in [RFC4250], as=20
follows:<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Service =

Name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Reference<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
-------------&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
---------<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
netconf&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
RFC 4742<BR><BR><BR>Corrected Text<BR>--------------<BR>IANA is also =
requested=20
to assign "netconf" as an SSH Connection<BR>Protocol Subsystem Name as =
defined=20
in [RFC4250], as=20
follows:<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Subsystem=20
Name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Reference<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
-------------&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
---------<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
netconf&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
RFC 4742<BR><BR><BR>Notes<BR>-----<BR>The IANA registry (<A=20
href=3D"http://www.iana.org/assignments/ssh-parameters">http://www.iana.o=
rg/assignments/ssh-parameters</A>)<BR>also=20
needs to be fixed.<BR><BR>Instructions:<BR>-------------<BR>This errata =
is=20
currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please<BR>use "Reply All" =
to=20
discuss whether it should be verified or<BR>rejected. When a decision is =

reached, the verifying party (IESG)<BR>can log in to change the status =
and edit=20
the report, if necessary.=20
<BR><BR>--------------------------------------<BR>RFC4742=20
(draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-06)<BR>--------------------------------------<BR>=
Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
: Using the NETCONF Configuration Protocol over Secure SHell=20
(SSH)<BR>Publication Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : December=20
2006<BR>Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; :=20
M. Wasserman, T.=20
Goddard<BR>Category&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
: PROPOSED=20
STANDARD<BR>Source&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
: Network=20
Configuration<BR>Area&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
: Operations and=20
Management<BR>Stream&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
: IETF<BR>Verifying Party&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : =
IESG<BR></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_070F_01C959E7.5D2E4280--


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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec  9 01:34:58 2008
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Hi,
  Is sessionId used to differentiate active sessions or all activated sessions before reboot?
  Is lockId used to differentiate active locks or all activated locks before reboot?

Thanks in advance!

washam
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Hi,
  Is sessionId used to differentiate active sessions or all activated sessions before reboot?
  Is lockId used to differentiate active locks or all activated locks before reboot?

Thanks in advance!

washam
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-netconf-partial-lock-05
Date: Tue,  9 Dec 2008 09:07:55 -0800 (PST)
From: IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
To: balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com
CC: mbj@tail-f.com


A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-netconf-partial-lock-05.txt has been successfuly submitted by 
Balazs Lengyel and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-ietf-netconf-partial-lock
Revision:	 05
Title:		 Partial Lock RPC for NETCONF
Creation_date:	 2008-12-08
WG ID:		 netconf
Number_of_pages: 26

Abstract:
The NETCONF protocol defines the lock and unlock RPCs, used to lock
entire configuration datastores.  In some situations, a way to lock
only parts of a configuration datastore is required.  This document
defines a capability-based extension to the NETCONF protocol for
locking portions of a configuration datastore.



The IETF Secretariat.



-- 
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-netconf-partial-lock-05
Date: Tue,  9 Dec 2008 09:07:55 -0800 (PST)
From: IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
To: balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com
CC: mbj@tail-f.com


A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-netconf-partial-lock-05.txt has been successfuly submitted by 
Balazs Lengyel and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-ietf-netconf-partial-lock
Revision:	 05
Title:		 Partial Lock RPC for NETCONF
Creation_date:	 2008-12-08
WG ID:		 netconf
Number_of_pages: 26

Abstract:
The NETCONF protocol defines the lock and unlock RPCs, used to lock
entire configuration datastores.  In some situations, a way to lock
only parts of a configuration datastore is required.  This document
defines a capability-based extension to the NETCONF protocol for
locking portions of a configuration datastore.



The IETF Secretariat.



-- 
Balazs Lengyel                             Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
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                Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Partial Lock RPC for NETCONF
	Author(s)       : B. Lengyel, M. Bjorklund
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-partial-lock-05.txt
	Pages           : 26
	Date            : 2008-12-09

The NETCONF protocol defines the lock and unlock RPCs, used to lock
entire configuration datastores.  In some situations, a way to lock
only parts of a configuration datastore is required.  This document
defines a capability-based extension to the NETCONF protocol for
locking portions of a configuration datastore.

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Partial Lock RPC for NETCONF
	Author(s)       : B. Lengyel, M. Bjorklund
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-partial-lock-05.txt
	Pages           : 26
	Date            : 2008-12-09

The NETCONF protocol defines the lock and unlock RPCs, used to lock
entire configuration datastores.  In some situations, a way to lock
only parts of a configuration datastore is required.  This document
defines a capability-based extension to the NETCONF protocol for
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Dec 10 08:55:30 2008
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:55:21 -0800
In-Reply-To: <20081208182837.GA16667@elstar.local> (Juergen Schoenwaelder's
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>>>>> On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:28:37 +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> said:

JS> Since XML is so much easier than BER, hitting non well-formed XML
JS> documents should be rare in practice. ;-)

The general rule is: you must do the eval if you're the one acting on
the message.  IE, don't trust the client to have properly escaped ]]>]]>
for you; don't trust the other side's implementation when it comes to
security (and you're right: we see this all the time with web-browser
vulnerabilities)

non-well-formed XML documents are not necessarily going to be rare in
practice.  If we're designing netconf to be easily script-able (which was
an early goal) then we have to expect bad scripts to be written by
operators in a hurry who fail to consider where the input to the script
is coming from.

  echo "What is your name?"
  set a=$<
  echo "<create-ppp-user>$i</create-ppp-user>" | netconf-client

or worse:

  echo "<create-ppp-user>$i</create-ppp-user>" | raw-ssh-client host:netconfport

They're obviously not checking if the user had put

  ]]>]]><edit-config><somethingnasty/></edit-config>

as their user name.  The only choice from a security perspective is to
drop the connection when the first mesFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Dec 10 08:55:30 2008
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:55:21 -0800
In-Reply-To: <20081208182837.GA16667@elstar.local> (Juergen Schoenwaelder's
	message of "Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:28:37 +0100")
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>>>>> On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:28:37 +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> said:

JS> Since XML is so much easier than BER, hitting non well-formed XML
JS> documents should be rare in practice. ;-)

The general rule is: you must do the eval if you're the one acting on
the message.  IE, don't trust the client to have properly escaped ]]>]]>
for you; don't trust the other side's implementation when it comes to
security (and you're right: we see this all the time with web-browser
vulnerabilities)

non-well-formed XML documents are not necessarily going to be rare in
practice.  If we're designing netconf to be easily script-able (which was
an early goal) then we have to expect bad scripts to be written by
operators in a hurry who fail to consider where the input to the script
is coming from.

  echo "What is your name?"
  set a=$<
  echo "<create-ppp-user>$i</create-ppp-user>" | netconf-client

or worse:

  echo "<create-ppp-user>$i</create-ppp-user>" | raw-ssh-client host:netconfport

They're obviously not checking if the user had put

  ]]>]]><edit-config><somethingnasty/></edit-config>

as their user name.  The only choice from a security perspective is to
drop the connection when the firsage (the <create-ppp-user> rpc)
fails to be fully parsed.

Back then, we took the word of the xml-directorate that ]]>]]> couldn't
exist in a legal XML document.  Turns out that may be suspect even for
legal documents and worse it doesn't matter if you can't control the
legality of what's coming in anyway.  SSH doesn't do framing and trying
to force in a framing mechanism into the data-stream was the likely
mistake.

-- 
"In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap,
 and much more difficult to find."  -- Terry Pratchett
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st message (the <create-ppp-user> rpc)
fails to be fully parsed.

Back then, we took the word of the xml-directorate that ]]>]]> couldn't
exist in a legal XML document.  Turns out that may be suspect even for
legal documents and worse it doesn't matter if you can't control the
legality of what's coming in anyway.  SSH doesn't do framing and trying
to force in a framing mechanism into the data-stream was the likely
mistake.

-- 
"In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap,
 and much more difficult to find."  -- Terry Pratchett
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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:28:37 +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> said:
> 
> JS> Since XML is so much easier than BER, hitting non well-formed XML
> JS> documents should be rare in practice. ;-)
> 
> The general rule is: you must do the eval if you're the one acting on
> the message.  IE, don't trust the client to have properly escaped ]]>]]>
> for you; don't trust the other side's implementation when it comes to
> security (and you're right: we see this all the time with web-browser
> vulnerabilities)
> 
> non-well-formed XML documents are not necessarily going to be rare in
> practice.  If we're designing netconf to be easily script-able (which was
> an early goal) then we have to expect bad scripts to be written by
> operators in a hurry who fail to consider where the input to the script
> is coming from.
> 
>   echo "What is your name?"
>   set a=$<
>   echo "<create-ppp-user>$i</create-ppp-user>" | netconf-client
> 
> or worse:
> 
>   echo "<create-ppp-user>$i</create-ppp-user>" | raw-ssh-client host:netconfport
> 
> They're obviously not checking if the user had put
> 
>   ]]>]]><edit-config><somethingnasty/></edit-config>
> 


I don't know who 'they' are, but the NETCONF protocol is designed
a little better than that, and implementations can take advantage.
When a session starts, it must go through a state machine that
begins with the <hello> exchange.  The agent will not accept
anything but <hello> and it doesn't go well, the connection
will be dropped right away.

Before the <hello>, everything is handled by the 'master' SSH agent
(openssh), which would not do anything except barf if it got
an <edit-config> embedded in the username.  Only the 'netconf'
subsystem has access to the config databases.  Avoiding the
netconf subsystem with raw SSH will not help.

After the session is established, each EOM seen at the SSH channel
layer input stream will cause a message to be sent to the dispatcher,
which will go through all the security checks that are
supported by the agent.  I do not see how the EOM marker can cause
an agent to invoke an RPC as if it were a different one.  It can
certainly disrupt the session, but that's just garbage-in, garbage-out.


> as their user name.  The only choice from a security perspective is to
> drop the connection when the first message (the <create-ppp-user> rpc)
> fails to be fully parsed.
> 
> Back then, we took the word of the xml-directorate that ]]>]]> couldn't
> exist in a legal XML document.  Turns out that may be suspect even for
> legal documents and worse it doesn't matter if you can't control the
> legality of what's coming in anyway.  SSH doesn't do framing and trying
> to force in a framing mechanism into the data-stream was the likely
> mistake.
> 

Andy

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:28:37 +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> said:
> 
> JS> Since XML is so much easier than BER, hitting non well-formed XML
> JS> documents should be rare in practice. ;-)
> 
> The general rule is: you must do the eval if you're the one acting on
> the message.  IE, don't trust the client to have properly escaped ]]>]]>
> for you; don't trust the other side's implementation when it comes to
> security (and you're right: we see this all the time with web-browser
> vulnerabilities)
> 
> non-well-formed XML documents are not necessarily going to be rare in
> practice.  If we're designing netconf to be easily script-able (which was
> an early goal) then we have to expect bad scripts to be written by
> operators in a hurry who fail to consider where the input to the script
> is coming from.
> 
>   echo "What is your name?"
>   set a=$<
>   echo "<create-ppp-user>$i</create-ppp-user>" | netconf-client
> 
> or worse:
> 
>   echo "<create-ppp-user>$i</create-ppp-user>" | raw-ssh-client host:netconfport
> 
> They're obviously not checking if the user had put
> 
>   ]]>]]><edit-config><somethingnasty/></edit-config>
> 


I don't know who 'they' are, but the NETCONF protocol is designed
a little better than that, and implementations can take advantage.
When a session starts, it must go through a state machine that
begins with the <hello> exchange.  The agent will not accept
anything but <hello> and it doesn't go well, the connection
will be dropped right away.

Before the <hello>, everything is handled by the 'master' SSH agent
(openssh), which would not do anything except barf if it got
an <edit-config> embedded in the username.  Only the 'netconf'
subsystem has access to the config databases.  Avoiding the
netconf subsystem with raw SSH will not help.

After the session is established, each EOM seen at the SSH channel
layer input stream will cause a message to be sent to the dispatcher,
which will go through all the security checks that are
supported by the agent.  I do not see how the EOM marker can cause
an agent to invoke an RPC as if it were a different one.  It can
certainly disrupt the session, but that's just garbage-in, garbage-out.


> as their user name.  The only choice from a security perspective is to
> drop the connection when the first message (the <create-ppp-user> rpc)
> fails to be fully parsed.
> 
> Back then, we took the word of the xml-directorate that ]]>]]> couldn't
> exist in a legal XML document.  Turns out that may be suspect even for
> legal documents and worse it doesn't matter if you can't control the
> legality of what's coming in anyway.  SSH doesn't do framing and trying
> to force in a framing mechanism into the data-stream was the likely
> mistake.
> 

Andy

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 09:24:22AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> After the session is established, each EOM seen at the SSH channel
> layer input stream will cause a message to be sent to the dispatcher,
> which will go through all the security checks that are
> supported by the agent.  I do not see how the EOM marker can cause
> an agent to invoke an RPC as if it were a different one.

We seem to agree that the EOM marker may be used to ship an "unwanted"
RPC call through a naive client imFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Dec 10 14:07:41 2008
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On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 09:24:22AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> After the session is established, each EOM seen at the SSH channel
> layer input stream will cause a message to be sent to the dispatcher,
> which will go through all the security checks that are
> supported by the agent.  I do not see how the EOM marker can cause
> an agent to invoke an RPC as if it were a different one.

We seem to agree that the EOM marker may be used to ship an "unwanted"
RPC call through a naive cliplementation. If this is paired with
a loose access control configuration where the server trusts a certain
client, the problem is real.

You seem to take the position that (a) there should not be access
control rules that allow more access than absolutely necessary and (b)
there should not be clients that pass user input unfiltered to a
NETCONF server. While I agree with (a) and (b) in theory, there
happens to be evidence that in real world installations often violate
(a) and (b).  [And I like to add that there is no common way to do (a)
yet - so it is unclear how strict access control actually can be.]

I believe the usefulness of the EOM marker needs to be revisited now
that we have some implementation experience. If the WG after having
implementation experience reaches the some conclusion that the
benefits are worth to keep the EOM marker, then I think there needs to
be security considerations text discussing the implications of having
clients not controlling EOM markers contained in the messages they
generate and it might spell out implementation guidelines to protect
against misuse via creative EOM markers.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
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ent implementation. If this is paired with
a loose access control configuration where the server trusts a certain
client, the problem is real.

You seem to take the position that (a) there should not be access
control rules that allow more access than absolutely necessary and (b)
there should not be clients that pass user input unfiltered to a
NETCONF server. While I agree with (a) and (b) in theory, there
happens to be evidence that in real world installations often violate
(a) and (b).  [And I like to add that there is no common way to do (a)
yet - so it is unclear how strict access control actually can be.]

I believe the usefulness of the EOM marker needs to be revisited now
that we have some implementation experience. If the WG after having
implementation experience reaches the some conclusion that the
benefits are worth to keep the EOM marker, then I think there needs to
be security considerations text discussing the implications of having
clients not controlling EOM markers contained in the messages they
generate and it might spell out implementation guidelines to protect
against misuse via creative EOM markers.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 09:24:22AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
>> After the session is established, each EOM seen at the SSH channel
>> layer input stream will cause a message to be sent to the dispatcher,
>> which will go through all the security checks that are
>> supported by the agent.  I do not see how the EOM marker can cause
>> an agent to invoke an RPC as if it were a different one.
> 
> We seem to agree that the EOM marker may be used to ship an "unwanted"
> RPC call through a naive client implementation. If this is paired with
> a loose access control configuration where the server trusts a certain
> client, the problem is real.
> 
> You seem to take the position that (a) there should not be access
> control rules that allow more access than absolutely necessary and (b)
> there should not be clients that pass user input unfiltered to a
> NETCONF server. While I agree with (a) and (b) in theory, there
> happens to be evidence that in real world installations often violate
> (a) and (b).  [And I like to add that there is no common way to do (a)
> yet - so it is unclear how strict access control actually can be.]
> 
> I believe the usefulness of the EOM marker needs to be revisited now
> that we have some implementation experience. If the WG after having
> implementation experience reaches the some conclusion that the
> benefits are worth to keep the EOM marker, then I think there needs to
> be security considerations text discussing the implications of having
> clients not controlling EOM markers contained in the messages they
> generate and it might spell out implementation guidelines to protect
> against misuse via creative EOM markers.
> 

I think all aspects of NETCONF 1.0 interoperability and security
should be open to discussion for NETCONF 1.1.  I pushed for an
access control model several times but the NETCONF community
is happy with proprietary ACMs for now, so other work is being
done instead.

I guess it would be prudent for an agent to drop the session
if it gets any bad XML at all.  Not very Postel-like though.
It should be configurable on the agent (operation-failed or
drop-session).

Why doesn't NETCONF have standard configurable security, like SNMP?
I thought SNMP was the 'read-only' protocol.


> /js
> 

Andy

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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 09:24:22AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
>> After the session is established, each EOM seen at the SSH channel
>> layer input stream will cause a message to be sent to the dispatcher,
>> which will go through all the security checks that are
>> supported by the agent.  I do not see how the EOM marker can cause
>> an agent to invoke an RPC as if it were a different one.
> 
> We seem to agree that the EOM marker may be used to ship an "unwanted"
> RPC call through a naive client implementation. If this is paired with
> a loose access control configuration where the server trusts a certain
> client, the problem is real.
> 
> You seem to take the position that (a) there should not be access
> control rules that allow more access than absolutely necessary and (b)
> there should not be clients that pass user input unfiltered to a
> NETCONF server. While I agree with (a) and (b) in theory, there
> happens to be evidence that in real world installations often violate
> (a) and (b).  [And I like to add that there is no common way to do (a)
> yet - so it is unclear how strict access control actually can be.]
> 
> I believe the usefulness of the EOM marker needs to be revisited now
> that we have some implementation experience. If the WG after having
> implementation experience reaches the some conclusion that the
> benefits are worth to keep the EOM marker, then I think there needs to
> be security considerations text discussing the implications of having
> clients not controlling EOM markers contained in the messages they
> generate and it might spell out implementation guidelines to protect
> against misuse via creative EOM markers.
> 

I think all aspects of NETCONF 1.0 interoperability and security
should be open to discussion for NETCONF 1.1.  I pushed for an
access control model several times but the NETCONF community
is happy with proprietary ACMs for now, so other work is being
done instead.

I guess it would be prudent for an agent to drop the session
if it gets any bad XML at all.  Not very Postel-like though.
It should be configurable on the agent (operation-failed or
drop-session).

Why doesn't NETCONF have standard configurable security, like SNMP?
I thought SNMP was the 'read-only' protocol.


> /js
> 

Andy

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Netconf mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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>>>>> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:24:22 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:

AB> I don't know who 'they' are, but the NETCONF protocol is designed
AB> a little better than that, and implementations can take advantage.

Andy,

Sorry for my brevity.  I sliced a finger open the other day and didn't
want to type a full-length message out because my typing speed is a bit
reduced.  I thought you'd pick up on what I was trying to get across
(Juergen did I'm pretty sure at least) but I failed.

netconf is designed to be scripted such that messages need not
necessarily be passed through a netconf-aware application.  IE, openssh
(which you referenced) may be an end-tool through which a script passes
data to a netconf server without requiring a specialized program like
"snmpset" and similar tools exist for SNMP.  I've already seen real code
written that does not invoke a "smart" netconf client but constructs
hopefully-valid XML on the fly from the "script" to pass to a server.

My example didn't include <hello> and capability exchanges, you're
right.  It was a terse example.  It also didn't include namespaces and
other necessary "stuff".

Picture a ISP's operators having quickly hacked together a web-sign-up
sheet for offering a new account to their system.  They fail to
implement decent security checks against the "preferred" user name or
email address (sorry, but this is actually more common than you'd like).
The take the entered data from the user and later use it to populate a
netconf message sent to a netconf agent on the router for adding a new
account name that should be granted access through the PPP modem pool.

So, if a bad-dude enters a user-name in the web form that includes
]]>]]> followed by a syntactically valid edit-config and the operator's
script sends it to the router as part of the update then currently the
user's edit-config gets executed.  Because the SSH transport uses the
]]>]]> as a valid framing marker and allows the transport to take the
first part of the message stream (the invalid update to the users table
that gets truncated by the ]]>]]>), toss it aside as invalid and then
keep trying to execute further data (the trailing <edit-config> inserted
by the bad-dude).

Now, I know "the operator gets what he deserves" for writing such a bad
script.  But as we know, performing all the right "checks" rarely gets
done perfectly.  Simply put, I don't by the assumption that 100% of all
netconf clients are always going to properly check their input for
]]>]]> markers and properly escape them.  Maybe they do get what they
deserve.  Maybe we should require smarter operators.  But one of the
early goals of netconf was to make things easier so they didn't have to
understand as much of the nitty-gritty protocol details like BER and
other nasty encoding rules.

AB> After the session is established, each EOM seen at the SSH channel
AB> layer input stream will cause a message to be sent to the dispatcher,
AB> which will go through all the security checks that are
AB> supported by the agent.

Yep.  And malicious users may be able to insert EOM markers in the
middle of their form-data to add additional commands to the stream.
This is exactly what sql injection attacks do and they work because not
everyone carefully checks input like they should.  Yes, the operators
writing the code get what they deserve for sql injection attacks too.
But wouldn't it be better if the operators didn't have to worry about
it?

Unfortunately, it's too late and I don't know what could be done other
than to say if you are parsing a stream and get bad data you should drop
the connection rather than discard the message and keep reading from
the stream.  That's the only path forward that makes the most sense.
-- 
"In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap,
 and much more difficult to find."  -- Terry Pratchett
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>>>>> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:24:22 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:

AB> I don't know who 'they' are, but the NETCONF protocol is designed
AB> a little better than that, and implementations can take advantage.

Andy,

Sorry for my brevity.  I sliced a finger open the other day and didn't
want to type a full-length message out because my typing speed is a bit
reduced.  I thought you'd pick up on what I was trying to get across
(Juergen did I'm pretty sure at least) but I failed.

netconf is designed to be scripted such that messages need not
necessarily be passed through a netconf-aware application.  IE, openssh
(which you referenced) may be an end-tool through which a script passes
data to a netconf server without requiring a specialized program like
"snmpset" and similar tools exist for SNMP.  I've already seen real code
written that does not invoke a "smart" netconf client but constructs
hopefully-valid XML on the fly from the "script" to pass to a server.

My example didn't include <hello> and capability exchanges, you're
right.  It was a terse example.  It also didn't include namespaces and
other necessary "stuff".

Picture a ISP's operators having quickly hacked together a web-sign-up
sheet for offering a new account to their system.  They fail to
implement decent security checks against the "preferred" user name or
email address (sorry, but this is actually more common than you'd like).
The take the entered data from the user and later use it to populate a
netconf message sent to a netconf agent on the router for adding a new
account name that should be granted access through the PPP modem pool.

So, if a bad-dude enters a user-name in the web form that includes
]]>]]> followed by a syntactically valid edit-config and the operator's
script sends it to the router as part of the update then currently the
user's edit-config gets executed.  Because the SSH transport uses the
]]>]]> as a valid framing marker and allows the transport to take the
first part of the message stream (the invalid update to the users table
that gets truncated by the ]]>]]>), toss it aside as invalid and then
keep trying to execute further data (the trailing <edit-config> inserted
by the bad-dude).

Now, I know "the operator gets what he deserves" for writing such a bad
script.  But as we know, performing all the right "checks" rarely gets
done perfectly.  Simply put, I don't by the assumption that 100% of all
netconf clients are always going to properly check their input for
]]>]]> markers and properly escape them.  Maybe they do get what they
deserve.  Maybe we should require smarter operators.  But one of the
early goals of netconf was to make things easier so they didn't have to
understand as much of the nitty-gritty protocol details like BER and
other nasty encoding rules.

AB> After the session is established, each EOM seen at the SSH channel
AB> layer input stream will cause a message to be sent to the dispatcher,
AB> which will go through all the security checks that are
AB> supported by the agent.

Yep.  And malicious users may be able to insert EOM markers in the
middle of their form-data to add additional commands to the stream.
This is exactly what sql injection attacks do and they work because not
everyone carefully checks input like they should.  Yes, the operators
writing the code get what they deserve for sql injection attacks too.
But wouldn't it be better if the operators didn't have to worry about
it?

Unfortunately, it's too late and I don't know what could be done other
than to say if you are parsing a stream and get bad data you should drop
the connection rather than discard the message and keep reading from
the stream.  That's the only path forward that makes the most sense.
-- 
"In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap,
 and much more difficult to find."  -- Terry Pratchett
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 04:31:44 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] filtering notification streams
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Section 3.4 from the RFC 5277 shows in the XSD schema that the <streams>
>> element MUST appear always once and the <stream> element MUST appear at
>> least once, because NETCONF server has to define always at least "NETCONF"
>> stream. What in your opinion a server should return as a response for
>> the following request:
>>
>> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <get>
>>         <filter type="subtree">
>>             <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
>>                 <streams/>
>>                 <streams/>
>>             </netconf>
>>         </filter>
>>     </get>
>> </rpc>]]>]]>
> 
> The server should return the streams subtree, either once or twice.
> It is a bit unlcear if the "filter output" is supposed to be a proper
> set or not.  Since it is a subtree filter, it should not return an
> error.

The section 2.1.1 from RFC 5277 says:

"Subscription requests will fail if a filter with invalid syntaxFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 04:31:44 2008
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Section 3.4 from the RFC 5277 shows in the XSD schema that the <streams>
>> element MUST appear always once and the <stream> element MUST appear at
>> least once, because NETCONF server has to define always at least "NETCONF"
>> stream. What in your opinion a server should return as a response for
>> the following request:
>>
>> <rpc message-id="101" xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0">
>>     <get>
>>         <filter type="subtree">
>>             <netconf xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netmod:notification">
>>                 <streams/>
>>                 <streams/>
>>             </netconf>
>>         </filter>
>>     </get>
>> </rpc>]]>]]>
> 
> The server should return the streams subtree, either once or twice.
> It is a bit unlcear if the "filter output" is supposed to be a proper
> set or not.  Since it is a subtree filter, it should not return an
> error.

The section 2.1.1 from RFC 5277 says:

"Subscription requests will fail if a filter with invalid  is provided or if the
name of a non-existent stream is provided."

What does it mean invalid syntax? If not such syntax that causes XML parser error, this means that it's possible that a filter may be invalid.
Is it coherent with the filtering mechanism in get operation? In the get type operations not matching data are just skipped according to the
known filtering rules.
The above example with the double <streams/> element may be treated as the request with an invalid syntax and returning an error in this case is
acceptable.

>> Another point. The RFC says in the section 3.2.5.1:
>>
>> "Available event streams for the requesting session are returned in the reply
>> containing the <name> and <description> elements, where the <name>
>> element is mandatory, and its value is unique within the scope of a NETCONF
>> server.  An empty reply is returned if there are no available event
>> streams, due to user-specified filters on the <get> operation."
>>
>> My comments to this:
>> 1) The "replaySupport" node is also mandatory according to the schema
>> 2) Seems that the empty reply doesn't match the schema
> 
> The schema describes the conceptual data store, not the PUDs.
> 
> 
> /martin
> 

Tomasz

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syntax is provided or if the
name of a non-existent stream is provided."

What does it mean invalid syntax? If not such syntax that causes XML parser error, this means that it's possible that a filter may be invalid.
Is it coherent with the filtering mechanism in get operation? In the get type operations not matching data are just skipped according to the
known filtering rules.
The above example with the double <streams/> element may be treated as the request with an invalid syntax and returning an error in this case is
acceptable.

>> Another point. The RFC says in the section 3.2.5.1:
>>
>> "Available event streams for the requesting session are returned in the reply
>> containing the <name> and <description> elements, where the <name>
>> element is mandatory, and its value is unique within the scope of a NETCONF
>> server.  An empty reply is returned if there are no available event
>> streams, due to user-specified filters on the <get> operation."
>>
>> My comments to this:
>> 1) The "replaySupport" node is also mandatory according to the schema
>> 2) Seems that the empty reply doesn't match the schema
> 
> The schema describes the conceptual data store, not the PUDs.
> 
> 
> /martin
> 

Tomasz

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 07:02:32 2008
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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:24:22 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
> 
> AB> I don't know who 'they' are, but the NETCONF protocol is designed
> AB> a little better than that, and implementations can take advantage.
> 
> Andy,
> 
> Sorry for my brevity.  I sliced a finger open the other day and didn't
> want to type a full-length message out because my typing speed is a bit
> reduced.  I thought you'd pick up on what I was trying to get across
> (Juergen did I'm pretty sure at least) but I failed.
> 

So the solution is to drop the session if any bad XML is received?
The dumb script inserting user data without checking it cannot 'undo'
the <rpc> already seen by the agent, so truncating it will
prevent the 'bad PDU' from being executed.  OK, but...

Why can't the attacker just figure out exactly where the
data is getting inserted and figure out how to close
off the XML properly?  Then issue the bad PDU,
aFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 07:02:32 2008
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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:24:22 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
> 
> AB> I don't know who 'they' are, but the NETCONF protocol is designed
> AB> a little better than that, and implementations can take advantage.
> 
> Andy,
> 
> Sorry for my brevity.  I sliced a finger open the other day and didn't
> want to type a full-length message out because my typing speed is a bit
> reduced.  I thought you'd pick up on what I was trying to get across
> (Juergen did I'm pretty sure at least) but I failed.
> 

So the solution is to drop the session if any bad XML is received?
The dumb script inserting user data without checking it cannot 'undo'
the <rpc> already seen by the agent, so truncating it will
prevent the 'bad PDU' from being executed.  OK, but...

Why can't the attacker just figure out exactly where the
data is getting inserted and figure out how to close
off the XML properly?  Then issue the bad PDU,
and whend when the truncated end of the real PDU is detected,
it is already too late (or insert a <close-session>
after the <edit-config> to keep the operator a little
more in the dark.)

It doesn't seem like the SSH EOM marker is relevant to this attack.

It seems like only a real (properly configured) ACM is going to help.


> netconf is designed to be scripted such that messages need not
> necessarily be passed through a netconf-aware application.  IE, openssh
> (which you referenced) may be an end-tool through which a script passes
> data to a netconf server without requiring a specialized program like
> "snmpset" and similar tools exist for SNMP.  I've already seen real code
> written that does not invoke a "smart" netconf client but constructs
> hopefully-valid XML on the fly from the "script" to pass to a server.
> 
> My example didn't include <hello> and capability exchanges, you're
> right.  It was a terse example.  It also didn't include namespaces and
> other necessary "stuff".
> 
> Picture a ISP's operators having quickly hacked together a web-sign-up
> sheet for offering a new account to their system.  They fail to
> implement decent security checks against the "preferred" user name or
> email address (sorry, but this is actually more common than you'd like).
> The take the entered data from the user and later use it to populate a
> netconf message sent to a netconf agent on the router for adding a new
> account name that should be granted access through the PPP modem pool.
> 
> So, if a bad-dude enters a user-name in the web form that includes
> ]]>]]> followed by a syntactically valid edit-config and the operator's
> script sends it to the router as part of the update then currently the
> user's edit-config gets executed.  Because the SSH transport uses the
> ]]>]]> as a valid framing marker and allows the transport to take the
> first part of the message stream (the invalid update to the users table
> that gets truncated by the ]]>]]>), toss it aside as invalid and then
> keep trying to execute further data (the trailing <edit-config> inserted
> by the bad-dude).
> 
> Now, I know "the operator gets what he deserves" for writing such a bad
> script.  But as we know, performing all the right "checks" rarely gets
> done perfectly.  Simply put, I don't by the assumption that 100% of all
> netconf clients are always going to properly check their input for
> ]]>]]> markers and properly escape them.  Maybe they do get what they
> deserve.  Maybe we should require smarter operators.  But one of the
> early goals of netconf was to make things easier so they didn't have to
> understand as much of the nitty-gritty protocol details like BER and
> other nasty encoding rules.
> 
> AB> After the session is established, each EOM seen at the SSH channel
> AB> layer input stream will cause a message to be sent to the dispatcher,
> AB> which will go through all the security checks that are
> AB> supported by the agent.
> 
> Yep.  And malicious users may be able to insert EOM markers in the
> middle of their form-data to add additional commands to the stream.
> This is exactly what sql injection attacks do and they work because not
> everyone carefully checks input like they should.  Yes, the operators
> writing the code get what they deserve for sql injection attacks too.
> But wouldn't it be better if the operators didn't have to worry about
> it?
> 
> Unfortunately, it's too late and I don't know what could be done other
> than to say if you are parsing a stream and get bad data you should drop
> the connection rather than discard the message and keep reading from
> the stream.  That's the only path forward that makes the most sense.


Andy




_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


n the truncated end of the real PDU is detected,
it is already too late (or insert a <close-session>
after the <edit-config> to keep the operator a little
more in the dark.)

It doesn't seem like the SSH EOM marker is relevant to this attack.

It seems like only a real (properly configured) ACM is going to help.


> netconf is designed to be scripted such that messages need not
> necessarily be passed through a netconf-aware application.  IE, openssh
> (which you referenced) may be an end-tool through which a script passes
> data to a netconf server without requiring a specialized program like
> "snmpset" and similar tools exist for SNMP.  I've already seen real code
> written that does not invoke a "smart" netconf client but constructs
> hopefully-valid XML on the fly from the "script" to pass to a server.
> 
> My example didn't include <hello> and capability exchanges, you're
> right.  It was a terse example.  It also didn't include namespaces and
> other necessary "stuff".
> 
> Picture a ISP's operators having quickly hacked together a web-sign-up
> sheet for offering a new account to their system.  They fail to
> implement decent security checks against the "preferred" user name or
> email address (sorry, but this is actually more common than you'd like).
> The take the entered data from the user and later use it to populate a
> netconf message sent to a netconf agent on the router for adding a new
> account name that should be granted access through the PPP modem pool.
> 
> So, if a bad-dude enters a user-name in the web form that includes
> ]]>]]> followed by a syntactically valid edit-config and the operator's
> script sends it to the router as part of the update then currently the
> user's edit-config gets executed.  Because the SSH transport uses the
> ]]>]]> as a valid framing marker and allows the transport to take the
> first part of the message stream (the invalid update to the users table
> that gets truncated by the ]]>]]>), toss it aside as invalid and then
> keep trying to execute further data (the trailing <edit-config> inserted
> by the bad-dude).
> 
> Now, I know "the operator gets what he deserves" for writing such a bad
> script.  But as we know, performing all the right "checks" rarely gets
> done perfectly.  Simply put, I don't by the assumption that 100% of all
> netconf clients are always going to properly check their input for
> ]]>]]> markers and properly escape them.  Maybe they do get what they
> deserve.  Maybe we should require smarter operators.  But one of the
> early goals of netconf was to make things easier so they didn't have to
> understand as much of the nitty-gritty protocol details like BER and
> other nasty encoding rules.
> 
> AB> After the session is established, each EOM seen at the SSH channel
> AB> layer input stream will cause a message to be sent to the dispatcher,
> AB> which will go through all the security checks that are
> AB> supported by the agent.
> 
> Yep.  And malicious users may be able to insert EOM markers in the
> middle of their form-data to add additional commands to the stream.
> This is exactly what sql injection attacks do and they work because not
> everyone carefully checks input like they should.  Yes, the operators
> writing the code get what they deserve for sql injection attacks too.
> But wouldn't it be better if the operators didn't have to worry about
> it?
> 
> Unfortunately, it's too late and I don't know what could be done other
> than to say if you are parsing a stream and get bad data you should drop
> the connection rather than discard the message and keep reading from
> the stream.  That's the only path forward that makes the most sense.


Andy




_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Dear ADs (and WG),

based on the consensus after IETF 73 we prepared an update=20
for the NETCONF WG charter.=20

Dan, Ron: Could you please approve that the extended charter=20
text be posted as our current WG charter page and forward it to=20
iesg-secretary if approve <<081211_NETCONF WG Charter text.txt>> d=20
<<Diff WGCharter-20080821-WGCharter-20081211.htm>> ?=20
 =20
Thank you.

Bert and Mehmet

Attached is the new charter and a rfcdiff of old and new charter.
And here is the main body of the charter text:

Configuration of networks of devices has become a critical requirement
for operators in today's highly interoperable networks. Operators from
large to small have developed their own mechanisms or used vendor
specific mechanisms to transFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 08:29:28 2008
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Dear ADs (and WG),

based on the consensus after IETF 73 we prepared an update=20
for the NETCONF WG charter.=20

Dan, Ron: Could you please approve that the extended charter=20
text be posted as our current WG charter page and forward it to=20
iesg-secretary if approve <<081211_NETCONF WG Charter text.txt>> d=20
<<Diff WGCharter-20080821-WGCharter-20081211.htm>> ?=20
 =20
Thank you.

Bert and Mehmet

Attached is the new charter and a rfcdiff of old and new charter.
And here is the main body of the charter text:

Configuration of networks of devices has become a critical requirement
for operators in today's highly interoperable networks. Operators from
large to small have developed their own mechanisms or used vendor
specific mechanisms tofer configuration data to and from a
device, and for examining device state information which may impact
the configuration. Each of these mechanisms may be different in
various aspects, such as session establishment, user authentication,
configuration data exchange, and error responses.

The NETCONF Working Group is chartered to produce a protocol suitable
for network configuration, with the following characteristics:

- Provides retrieval mechanisms which can differentiate between
  configuration data and non-configuration data
- Is extensible enough so that vendors will provide access to all
  configuration data on the device using a single protocol
- Has a programmatic interface (avoids screen scraping and
  formatting-related changes between releases)
- Uses a textual data representation, that can be easily manipulated
  using non-specialized text manipulation tools.
- Supports integration with existing user authentication methods
- Supports integration with existing configuration database systems
- Supports network wide configuration transactions (with features such
  as locking and rollback capability)
- Is as transport-independent as possible
- Provides support for asynchronous notifications.

The NETCONF protocol is using XML for data encoding purposes, because
XML is a widely deployed standard which is supported by a large number
of applications.

The NETCONF protocol should be independent of the data definition
language and data models used to describe configuration and state
data.

However, the authorization model used in the protocol is dependent on
the data model. Although these issues must be fully addressed to
develop standard data models, only a small part of this work will be
initially addressed. This group will specify requirements for standard
data models in order to fully support the NETCONF protocol, such as:

- identification of principals, such as user names or distinguished
names
- mechanism to distinguish configuration from non-configuration data
- XML namespace conventions
- XML usage guidelines

The initial work started in 2003 and has already been completed and was
restricted to following items:

  a) NETCONF Protocol Specification, which defines the operational
model,
     protocol operations, transaction model, data model requirements,
     security requirements, and transport layer requirements.
  b) NETCONF over SSH Specification: Implementation Mandatory,
  c) NETCONF over BEEP Specification: Implementation Optional,
  d) NETCONF over SOAP Specification: Implementation Optional.

  These documents define how the NETCONF protocol is used with each
  transport protocol selected by the working group, and how it meets
  the security and transport layer requirements of the NETCONF Protocol
  Specification.

  e) NETCONF Notification Specification, which defines mechanisms that
     provide an asynchronous message notification delivery service for
     the NETCONF protocol.  NETCONF Notification is an optional
     capability built on top of the base NETCONF definition and
     provides the capabilities and operations necessary to support
     this service.

  The NETCONF notification specification has been finished now as well.

In the current phase of the incremental development of NETCONF the
workgroup will focus on following items:

1. Fine-grain locking: The base NETCONF protocol only provides a lock
   for the entire configuration datastore, which is not deemed to meet
   important operational and security requirements. The NETCONF working
   group will produce a standards-track RFC specifying a mechanism for
   fine-grain locking of the NETCONF configuration datastore.

2. NETCONF monitoring: It is considered best practice for IETF working
   groups to include management of their protocols within the scope of
   the solution they are providing. The NETCONF working group will
   produce a standards-track RFC with mechanisms allowing NETCONF
   itself to be used to monitor some aspects of NETCONF operation.

3. Schema advertisement: Currently the NETCONF protocol is able to
   advertise wh transfer configuration data to and from a
device, and for examining device state information which may impact
the configuration. Each of these mechanisms may be different in
various aspects, such as session establishment, user authentication,
configuration data exchange, and error responses.

The NETCONF Working Group is chartered to produce a protocol suitable
for network configuration, with the following characteristics:

- Provides retrieval mechanisms which can differentiate between
  configuration data and non-configuration data
- Is extensible enough so that vendors will provide access to all
  configuration data on the device using a single protocol
- Has a programmatic interface (avoids screen scraping and
  formatting-related changes between releases)
- Uses a textual data representation, that can be easily manipulated
  using non-specialized text manipulation tools.
- Supports integration with existing user authentication methods
- Supports integration with existing configuration database systems
- Supports network wide configuration transactions (with features such
  as locking and rollback capability)
- Is as transport-independent as possible
- Provides support for asynchronous notifications.

The NETCONF protocol is using XML for data encoding purposes, because
XML is a widely deployed standard which is supported by a large number
of applications.

The NETCONF protocol should be independent of the data definition
language and data models used to describe configuration and state
data.

However, the authorization model used in the protocol is dependent on
the data model. Although these issues must be fully addressed to
develop standard data models, only a small part of this work will be
initially addressed. This group will specify requirements for standard
data models in order to fully support the NETCONF protocol, such as:

- identification of principals, such as user names or distinguished
names
- mechanism to distinguish configuration from non-configuration data
- XML namespace conventions
- XML usage guidelines

The initial work started in 2003 and has already been completed and was
restricted to following items:

  a) NETCONF Protocol Specification, which defines the operational
model,
     protocol operations, transaction model, data model requirements,
     security requirements, and transport layer requirements.
  b) NETCONF over SSH Specification: Implementation Mandatory,
  c) NETCONF over BEEP Specification: Implementation Optional,
  d) NETCONF over SOAP Specification: Implementation Optional.

  These documents define how the NETCONF protocol is used with each
  transport protocol selected by the working group, and how it meets
  the security and transport layer requirements of the NETCONF Protocol
  Specification.

  e) NETCONF Notification Specification, which defines mechanisms that
     provide an asynchronous message notification delivery service for
     the NETCONF protocol.  NETCONF Notification is an optional
     capability built on top of the base NETCONF definition and
     provides the capabilities and operations necessary to support
     this service.

  The NETCONF notification specification has been finished now as well.

In the current phase of the incremental development of NETCONF the
workgroup will focus on following items:

1. Fine-grain locking: The base NETCONF protocol only provides a lock
   for the entire configuration datastore, which is not deemed to meet
   important operational and security requirements. The NETCONF working
   group will produce a standards-track RFC specifying a mechanism for
   fine-grain locking of the NETCONF configuration datastore.

2. NETCONF monitoring: It is considered best practice for IETF working
   groups to include management of their protocols within the scope of
   the solution they are providing. The NETCONF working group will
   produce a standards-track RFC with mechanisms allowing NETCONF
   itself to be used to monitor some aspects of NETCONF operation.

3. Schema advertisement: Currently the NETCONF protocol is able to
   advertich protocol features are supported on a particular
   netconf-capable device. However, there is currently no way to
discover
   which XML Schema are supported on the device. The NETCONF working
   group will produce a standards-track RFC with mechanisms making this
   discovery possible (this item may be merged with "NETCONF monitoring"
   into a single document).

   Note: The schema-advertisement material has been merged into the
   NETCONF monitoring document based on WG consensus.

4. NETCONF over TLS: Based on implementation experience there is a
   need for a standards track document to define NETCONF over TLS as an
   optional transport for the NETCONF protocol.

5. NETCONF default handling: NETCONF today does not define whether
   default values should be returned by the server in replies
   to requests for reading configuration and state data. Different
   clients have different needs to receive or not to receive
   default data. The NETCONF working group will produce a
   standards-track RFC defining a mechanism that allows
   NETCONF clients to control whether default data is returned
   by the netconf server.

6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the specification in RFC4741
   is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
implementations.=20
   Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an rfc4741bis
with
   following constraints:

     - bug fixes are to be done
     - clarifications can be done
     - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
     - The work can be started based on the discussion in IETF #73 (see
        http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf).

   Note: A technical errata has been posted on rfc4742. If the work on
   rfc4741bis uncovers any additional fixes/clarifications that need
   to be made to rfc4742, the WG may consider to also do a rfc4742bis
   as part of this work-item.

The following items have been identified as important but are currently
not considered in scope for re-chartering and may be candidates for work
when there is community consensus to take them on:

- NETCONF Notification content
- Access Control requirements
- NETCONF access to SMI-based MIB data


Goals and Milestones:
Done   Working Group formed
Done   Submit initial Netconf Protocol draft
Done   Submit initial Netconf over (transport-TBD) draft
Done   Begin Working Group Last Call for the Netconf Protocol draft
Done   Begin Working Group Last Call for the Netconf over
(transport-TBD)
            draft
Done   Submit final version of the Netconf Protocol draft to the IESG
Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over SOAP draft to the IESG
Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over BEEP draft to the IESG
Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over SSH draft to the IESG
Done   Update charter
Done   Submit first version of NETCONF Notifications document
Done   Begin WGLC of NETCONF Notifications document
Done   Submit final version of NETCONF Notifications document to IESG
            for consideration as Proposed Standard
Done   -00 draft for fine Grain Locking
Done   -00 draft for NETCONF over TLS
Done   -00 draft for NETCONF Monitoring
Done   -00 draft for Schema Advertisement
Done   Early Review of client authentication approach (for NETCONF over
            TLS) with the security community at IETF 71
N.A.     WG Last Call on Schema Advertisement after IETF72
            Schema Advertisement has been merged into Monitoring
Done    WG Last Call on NETCONF over TLS after IETF72
Done    Netconf over TLS to IESG for consideration as Proposed Standards
Dec 2008  WG Last Call on Fine Grain Locking after IETF73
Dec 2008  Send Partial Locking to IESG for consideration as Proposed
Standards
Jan 2009   Initial WG draft for with-defaults capability
Feb 2009   Initial WG draft for rfc4741bis
Mar 2009   WG Last Call on NETCONF Monitoring after IETF73
Apr 2009   WG Last Call on rfc4741bis
Apr 2009   WG Last Call on with-defaults
Jun 2009   rfc4741bis to IESG for considerations as Proposed Standard
Jun 2009   with-defaults capability to IESG for coise which protocol features are supported on a particular
   netconf-capable device. However, there is currently no way to
discover
   which XML Schema are supported on the device. The NETCONF working
   group will produce a standards-track RFC with mechanisms making this
   discovery possible (this item may be merged with "NETCONF monitoring"
   into a single document).

   Note: The schema-advertisement material has been merged into the
   NETCONF monitoring document based on WG consensus.

4. NETCONF over TLS: Based on implementation experience there is a
   need for a standards track document to define NETCONF over TLS as an
   optional transport for the NETCONF protocol.

5. NETCONF default handling: NETCONF today does not define whether
   default values should be returned by the server in replies
   to requests for reading configuration and state data. Different
   clients have different needs to receive or not to receive
   default data. The NETCONF working group will produce a
   standards-track RFC defining a mechanism that allows
   NETCONF clients to control whether default data is returned
   by the netconf server.

6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the specification in RFC4741
   is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
implementations.=20
   Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an rfc4741bis
with
   following constraints:

     - bug fixes are to be done
     - clarifications can be done
     - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
     - The work can be started based on the discussion in IETF #73 (see
        http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf).

   Note: A technical errata has been posted on rfc4742. If the work on
   rfc4741bis uncovers any additional fixes/clarifications that need
   to be made to rfc4742, the WG may consider to also do a rfc4742bis
   as part of this work-item.

The following items have been identified as important but are currently
not considered in scope for re-chartering and may be candidates for work
when there is community consensus to take them on:

- NETCONF Notification content
- Access Control requirements
- NETCONF access to SMI-based MIB data


Goals and Milestones:
Done   Working Group formed
Done   Submit initial Netconf Protocol draft
Done   Submit initial Netconf over (transport-TBD) draft
Done   Begin Working Group Last Call for the Netconf Protocol draft
Done   Begin Working Group Last Call for the Netconf over
(transport-TBD)
            draft
Done   Submit final version of the Netconf Protocol draft to the IESG
Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over SOAP draft to the IESG
Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over BEEP draft to the IESG
Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over SSH draft to the IESG
Done   Update charter
Done   Submit first version of NETCONF Notifications document
Done   Begin WGLC of NETCONF Notifications document
Done   Submit final version of NETCONF Notifications document to IESG
            for consideration as Proposed Standard
Done   -00 draft for fine Grain Locking
Done   -00 draft for NETCONF over TLS
Done   -00 draft for NETCONF Monitoring
Done   -00 draft for Schema Advertisement
Done   Early Review of client authentication approach (for NETCONF over
            TLS) with the security community at IETF 71
N.A.     WG Last Call on Schema Advertisement after IETF72
            Schema Advertisement has been merged into Monitoring
Done    WG Last Call on NETCONF over TLS after IETF72
Done    Netconf over TLS to IESG for consideration as Proposed Standards
Dec 2008  WG Last Call on Fine Grain Locking after IETF73
Dec 2008  Send Partial Locking to IESG for consideration as Proposed
Standards
Jan 2009   Initial WG draft for with-defaults capability
Feb 2009   Initial WG draft for rfc4741bis
Mar 2009   WG Last Call on NETCONF Monitoring after IETF73
Apr 2009   WG Last Call on rfc4741bis
Apr 2009   WG Last Call on with-defaults
Jun 2009   rfc4741bis to IESG for considerations as Proposed Standard
Jun 2009   with-defaults capability to IESG nsiderations as
Proposed Standard

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_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 08:41:04 2008
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <mehmet.ersue@nsn.com>,
	<rbonica@juniper.net>, <netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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I would suggest that we let a few days for the WG members to read and
raise objections if any, before bringing this to the IESG for approval.
If I am not mistaken it is the firs time the new charter text is
distributed on the list. 

Dan
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:mehmet.ersue@nsn.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:29 PM
> To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); rbonica@juniper.net; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Request for charter change
> 
> 
> Dear ADs (and WG),
> 
> based on the consensus after IETF 73 we prepared an update 
> for the NETCONF WG charter. 
> 
> Dan, Ron: Could you please approve that the extended charter 
> text be posted as our current WG charter page and forward it 
> to iesg-secretary if approve <<081211_NETCONF WG Charter 
> text.txt>> d <<Diff WGCharter-20080821-WGCharter-20081211.htm>> ? 
>   
> Thank you.
> 
> Bert and Mehmet
> 
> Attached is the new charter and a rfcdiff of old and new charter.
> And here is the main body of the charter text:
> 
> Configuration of networks of devices has become a critiFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 08:41:04 2008
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <mehmet.ersue@nsn.com>,
	<rbonica@juniper.net>, <netconf@ietf.org>
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I would suggest that we let a few days for the WG members to read and
raise objections if any, before bringing this to the IESG for approval.
If I am not mistaken it is the firs time the new charter text is
distributed on the list. 

Dan
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:mehmet.ersue@nsn.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:29 PM
> To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); rbonica@juniper.net; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Request for charter change
> 
> 
> Dear ADs (and WG),
> 
> based on the consensus after IETF 73 we prepared an update 
> for the NETCONF WG charter. 
> 
> Dan, Ron: Could you please approve that the extended charter 
> text be posted as our current WG charter page and forward it 
> to iesg-secretary if approve <<081211_NETCONF WG Charter 
> text.txt>> d <<Diff WGCharter-20080821-WGCharter-20081211.htm>> ? 
>   
> Thank you.
> 
> Bert and Mehmet
> 
> Attached is the new charter and a rfcdiff of old and new charter.
> And here is the main body of the charter text:
> 
> Configuration of networks of devices has become acal 
> requirement for operators in today's highly interoperable 
> networks. Operators from large to small have developed their 
> own mechanisms or used vendor specific mechanisms to transfer 
> configuration data to and from a device, and for examining 
> device state information which may impact the configuration. 
> Each of these mechanisms may be different in various aspects, 
> such as session establishment, user authentication, 
> configuration data exchange, and error responses.
> 
> The NETCONF Working Group is chartered to produce a protocol 
> suitable for network configuration, with the following 
> characteristics:
> 
> - Provides retrieval mechanisms which can differentiate between
>   configuration data and non-configuration data
> - Is extensible enough so that vendors will provide access to all
>   configuration data on the device using a single protocol
> - Has a programmatic interface (avoids screen scraping and
>   formatting-related changes between releases)
> - Uses a textual data representation, that can be easily manipulated
>   using non-specialized text manipulation tools.
> - Supports integration with existing user authentication methods
> - Supports integration with existing configuration database systems
> - Supports network wide configuration transactions (with features such
>   as locking and rollback capability)
> - Is as transport-independent as possible
> - Provides support for asynchronous notifications.
> 
> The NETCONF protocol is using XML for data encoding purposes, 
> because XML is a widely deployed standard which is supported 
> by a large number of applications.
> 
> The NETCONF protocol should be independent of the data 
> definition language and data models used to describe 
> configuration and state data.
> 
> However, the authorization model used in the protocol is 
> dependent on the data model. Although these issues must be 
> fully addressed to develop standard data models, only a small 
> part of this work will be initially addressed. This group 
> will specify requirements for standard data models in order 
> to fully support the NETCONF protocol, such as:
> 
> - identification of principals, such as user names or 
> distinguished names
> - mechanism to distinguish configuration from non-configuration data
> - XML namespace conventions
> - XML usage guidelines
> 
> The initial work started in 2003 and has already been 
> completed and was restricted to following items:
> 
>   a) NETCONF Protocol Specification, which defines the 
> operational model,
>      protocol operations, transaction model, data model requirements,
>      security requirements, and transport layer requirements.
>   b) NETCONF over SSH Specification: Implementation Mandatory,
>   c) NETCONF over BEEP Specification: Implementation Optional,
>   d) NETCONF over SOAP Specification: Implementation Optional.
> 
>   These documents define how the NETCONF protocol is used with each
>   transport protocol selected by the working group, and how it meets
>   the security and transport layer requirements of the 
> NETCONF Protocol
>   Specification.
> 
>   e) NETCONF Notification Specification, which defines mechanisms that
>      provide an asynchronous message notification delivery service for
>      the NETCONF protocol.  NETCONF Notification is an optional
>      capability built on top of the base NETCONF definition and
>      provides the capabilities and operations necessary to support
>      this service.
> 
>   The NETCONF notification specification has been finished 
> now as well.
> 
> In the current phase of the incremental development of 
> NETCONF the workgroup will focus on following items:
> 
> 1. Fine-grain locking: The base NETCONF protocol only provides a lock
>    for the entire configuration datastore, which is not deemed to meet
>    important operational and security requirements. The 
> NETCONF working
>    group will produce a standards-track RFC specifying a mechanism for
>    fine-grain locking of the NETCONF configuration datastore.
> 
> 2. NETCONF monitoring: It is considered best critical 
> requirement for operators in today's highly interoperable 
> networks. Operators from large to small have developed their 
> own mechanisms or used vendor specific mechanisms to transfer 
> configuration data to and from a device, and for examining 
> device state information which may impact the configuration. 
> Each of these mechanisms may be different in various aspects, 
> such as session establishment, user authentication, 
> configuration data exchange, and error responses.
> 
> The NETCONF Working Group is chartered to produce a protocol 
> suitable for network configuration, with the following 
> characteristics:
> 
> - Provides retrieval mechanisms which can differentiate between
>   configuration data and non-configuration data
> - Is extensible enough so that vendors will provide access to all
>   configuration data on the device using a single protocol
> - Has a programmatic interface (avoids screen scraping and
>   formatting-related changes between releases)
> - Uses a textual data representation, that can be easily manipulated
>   using non-specialized text manipulation tools.
> - Supports integration with existing user authentication methods
> - Supports integration with existing configuration database systems
> - Supports network wide configuration transactions (with features such
>   as locking and rollback capability)
> - Is as transport-independent as possible
> - Provides support for asynchronous notifications.
> 
> The NETCONF protocol is using XML for data encoding purposes, 
> because XML is a widely deployed standard which is supported 
> by a large number of applications.
> 
> The NETCONF protocol should be independent of the data 
> definition language and data models used to describe 
> configuration and state data.
> 
> However, the authorization model used in the protocol is 
> dependent on the data model. Although these issues must be 
> fully addressed to develop standard data models, only a small 
> part of this work will be initially addressed. This group 
> will specify requirements for standard data models in order 
> to fully support the NETCONF protocol, such as:
> 
> - identification of principals, such as user names or 
> distinguished names
> - mechanism to distinguish configuration from non-configuration data
> - XML namespace conventions
> - XML usage guidelines
> 
> The initial work started in 2003 and has already been 
> completed and was restricted to following items:
> 
>   a) NETCONF Protocol Specification, which defines the 
> operational model,
>      protocol operations, transaction model, data model requirements,
>      security requirements, and transport layer requirements.
>   b) NETCONF over SSH Specification: Implementation Mandatory,
>   c) NETCONF over BEEP Specification: Implementation Optional,
>   d) NETCONF over SOAP Specification: Implementation Optional.
> 
>   These documents define how the NETCONF protocol is used with each
>   transport protocol selected by the working group, and how it meets
>   the security and transport layer requirements of the 
> NETCONF Protocol
>   Specification.
> 
>   e) NETCONF Notification Specification, which defines mechanisms that
>      provide an asynchronous message notification delivery service for
>      the NETCONF protocol.  NETCONF Notification is an optional
>      capability built on top of the base NETCONF definition and
>      provides the capabilities and operations necessary to support
>      this service.
> 
>   The NETCONF notification specification has been finished 
> now as well.
> 
> In the current phase of the incremental development of 
> NETCONF the workgroup will focus on following items:
> 
> 1. Fine-grain locking: The base NETCONF protocol only provides a lock
>    for the entire configuration datastore, which is not deemed to meet
>    important operational and security requirements. The 
> NETCONF working
>    group will produce a standards-track RFC specifying a mechanism for
>    fine-grain locking of the NETCONF configuration datastore.
> 
> 2. NETCONF monitoring: It is considered best practice for IETF working
>    groups to include management of their protocols within the scope of
>    the solution they are providing. The NETCONF working group will
>    produce a standards-track RFC with mechanisms allowing NETCONF
>    itself to be used to monitor some aspects of NETCONF operation.
> 
> 3. Schema advertisement: Currently the NETCONF protocol is able to
>    advertise which protocol features are supported on a particular
>    netconf-capable device. However, there is currently no way 
> to discover
>    which XML Schema are supported on the device. The NETCONF working
>    group will produce a standards-track RFC with mechanisms 
> making this
>    discovery possible (this item may be merged with "NETCONF 
> monitoring"
>    into a single document).
> 
>    Note: The schema-advertisement material has been merged into the
>    NETCONF monitoring document based on WG consensus.
> 
> 4. NETCONF over TLS: Based on implementation experience there is a
>    need for a standards track document to define NETCONF over 
> TLS as an
>    optional transport for the NETCONF protocol.
> 
> 5. NETCONF default handling: NETCONF today does not define whether
>    default values should be returned by the server in replies
>    to requests for reading configuration and state data. Different
>    clients have different needs to receive or not to receive
>    default data. The NETCONF working group will produce a
>    standards-track RFC defining a mechanism that allows
>    NETCONF clients to control whether default data is returned
>    by the netconf server.
> 
> 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the specification 
> in RFC4741
>    is not 100% clear and has lead to different 
> interpretations and implementations. 
>    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an 
> rfc4741bis with
>    following constraints:
> 
>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      - clarifications can be done
>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>      - The work can be started based on the discussion in 
> IETF #73 (see
>         http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf).
> 
>    Note: A technical errata has been posted on rfc4742. If the work on
>    rfc4741bis uncovers any additional fixes/clarifications that need
>    to be made to rfc4742, the WG may consider to also do a rfc4742bis
>    as part of this work-item.
> 
> The following items have been identified as important but are 
> currently not considered in scope for re-chartering and may 
> be candidates for work when there is community consensus to 
> take them on:
> 
> - NETCONF Notification content
> - Access Control requirements
> - NETCONF access to SMI-based MIB data
> 
> 
> Goals and Milestones:
> Done   Working Group formed
> Done   Submit initial Netconf Protocol draft
> Done   Submit initial Netconf over (transport-TBD) draft
> Done   Begin Working Group Last Call for the Netconf Protocol draft
> Done   Begin Working Group Last Call for the Netconf over
> (transport-TBD)
>             draft
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf Protocol draft to the IESG
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over SOAP draft to the IESG
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over BEEP draft to the IESG
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over SSH draft to the IESG
> Done   Update charter
> Done   Submit first version of NETCONF Notifications document
> Done   Begin WGLC of NETCONF Notifications document
> Done   Submit final version of NETCONF Notifications document to IESG
>             for consideration as Proposed Standard
> Done   -00 draft for fine Grain Locking
> Done   -00 draft for NETCONF over TLS
> Done   -00 draft for NETCONF Monitoring
> Done   -00 draft for Schema Advertisement
> Done   Early Review of client authentication approach (for 
> NETCONF over
>             TLS) with the security community at IETF 71
> N.A.     WG Last Call on Schema Advertisement after IETF72
>             Schema Advertisement has been merged into Monitoring
> Done    WG Last Call on NETCONF over TLS after IETF72
> Done    Netconf over TLS to IESG for consideration as 
> Proposed Standards
> Dec 2008  WG Last Call on Fine Grain Locking after IETF73 Dec 
> 2008  Send Partial Locking to IESG for consideration as 
> Proposed Standards
> Jan 2009   Initial WG draft for with-defaults capability
> Feb 2009   Initial WG draft for rfc4741bis
> Mar 2009   WG Last Call on NETCONF Monitoring after IETF73
> Apr 2009   WG Last Call on rfc4741bis
> Apr 2009   WG Last Call on with-defaults
> Jun 2009   rfc4741bis to IESG for considerations as Proposed Standard
> Jun 2009   with-defaults capability to IESG for considerations as
> Proposed Standard
> 
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


 practice for IETF working
>    groups to include management of their protocols within the scope of
>    the solution they are providing. The NETCONF working group will
>    produce a standards-track RFC with mechanisms allowing NETCONF
>    itself to be used to monitor some aspects of NETCONF operation.
> 
> 3. Schema advertisement: Currently the NETCONF protocol is able to
>    advertise which protocol features are supported on a particular
>    netconf-capable device. However, there is currently no way 
> to discover
>    which XML Schema are supported on the device. The NETCONF working
>    group will produce a standards-track RFC with mechanisms 
> making this
>    discovery possible (this item may be merged with "NETCONF 
> monitoring"
>    into a single document).
> 
>    Note: The schema-advertisement material has been merged into the
>    NETCONF monitoring document based on WG consensus.
> 
> 4. NETCONF over TLS: Based on implementation experience there is a
>    need for a standards track document to define NETCONF over 
> TLS as an
>    optional transport for the NETCONF protocol.
> 
> 5. NETCONF default handling: NETCONF today does not define whether
>    default values should be returned by the server in replies
>    to requests for reading configuration and state data. Different
>    clients have different needs to receive or not to receive
>    default data. The NETCONF working group will produce a
>    standards-track RFC defining a mechanism that allows
>    NETCONF clients to control whether default data is returned
>    by the netconf server.
> 
> 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the specification 
> in RFC4741
>    is not 100% clear and has lead to different 
> interpretations and implementations. 
>    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an 
> rfc4741bis with
>    following constraints:
> 
>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      - clarifications can be done
>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>      - The work can be started based on the discussion in 
> IETF #73 (see
>         http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf).
> 
>    Note: A technical errata has been posted on rfc4742. If the work on
>    rfc4741bis uncovers any additional fixes/clarifications that need
>    to be made to rfc4742, the WG may consider to also do a rfc4742bis
>    as part of this work-item.
> 
> The following items have been identified as important but are 
> currently not considered in scope for re-chartering and may 
> be candidates for work when there is community consensus to 
> take them on:
> 
> - NETCONF Notification content
> - Access Control requirements
> - NETCONF access to SMI-based MIB data
> 
> 
> Goals and Milestones:
> Done   Working Group formed
> Done   Submit initial Netconf Protocol draft
> Done   Submit initial Netconf over (transport-TBD) draft
> Done   Begin Working Group Last Call for the Netconf Protocol draft
> Done   Begin Working Group Last Call for the Netconf over
> (transport-TBD)
>             draft
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf Protocol draft to the IESG
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over SOAP draft to the IESG
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over BEEP draft to the IESG
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over SSH draft to the IESG
> Done   Update charter
> Done   Submit first version of NETCONF Notifications document
> Done   Begin WGLC of NETCONF Notifications document
> Done   Submit final version of NETCONF Notifications document to IESG
>             for consideration as Proposed Standard
> Done   -00 draft for fine Grain Locking
> Done   -00 draft for NETCONF over TLS
> Done   -00 draft for NETCONF Monitoring
> Done   -00 draft for Schema Advertisement
> Done   Early Review of client authentication approach (for 
> NETCONF over
>             TLS) with the security community at IETF 71
> N.A.     WG Last Call on Schema Advertisement after IETF72
>             Schema Advertisement has been merged into Monitoring
> Done    WG Last Call on NETCONF over TLS after IETF72
> Done    Netconf over TLS to IESG for consideration as 
> Proposed Standards
> Dec 2008  WG Last Call on Fine Grain Locking after IETF73 Dec 
> 2008  Send Partial Locking to IESG for consideration as 
> Proposed Standards
> Jan 2009   Initial WG draft for with-defaults capability
> Feb 2009   Initial WG draft for rfc4741bis
> Mar 2009   WG Last Call on NETCONF Monitoring after IETF73
> Apr 2009   WG Last Call on rfc4741bis
> Apr 2009   WG Last Call on with-defaults
> Jun 2009   rfc4741bis to IESG for considerations as Proposed Standard
> Jun 2009   with-defaults capability to IESG for considerations as
> Proposed Standard
> 
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 10:24:48 2008
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Cc: netconf@ietf.org, rbonica@juniper.net
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Dear ADs (and WG),
> 
> based on the consensus after IETF 73 we prepared an update 
> for the NETCONF WG charter. 
> 


...

> 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the specification in RFC4741
>    is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
> implementations. 
>    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an rfc4741bis
> with
>    following constraints:
> 

Please document the implementation experience first,
before changing the protocol based on it.  I believe
there was 1 interop test done awhile back, and Juergen
has done some private testing on his own.

What level of interoperability is the WG trying to achieve?
Is it the RPC operation layer? The content layer?
Are there multiple independent implementations of the
same read-write data model(s)?

Is the WG attempting to gather interoperability experience,
document it, and advance the protocol to Draft Standard?
Is the WG ready to move some transports to Historic if
there are not at least 2 independent implementations?

If not, why not?
It's been published for 2 years already.
When does the WG estimate that NETCONF will advance to DS?

>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      - clarifications can be done
>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)

What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?

Is the WG allowed to make non-backward-compatible changes
to the protocol or transports?

The base URI for the NETCONF protocol is going to change
(it better) if any observable changes are made to protocol
behavior.  Are there any 1.0 to 1.1 protocol migration
concerns?  Are there any issues related to mixing 1.0
and 1.1 agents in the same network?

IMO, this 4741-bis work item does not fully address the
scope and complexity of the problem space.


thanks,
Andy

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 10:24:48 2008
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Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Dear ADs (and WG),
> 
> based on the consensus after IETF 73 we prepared an update 
> for the NETCONF WG charter. 
> 


...

> 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the specification in RFC4741
>    is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
> implementations. 
>    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an rfc4741bis
> with
>    following constraints:
> 

Please document the implementation experience first,
before changing the protocol based on it.  I believe
there was 1 interop test done awhile back, and Juergen
has done some private testing on his own.

What level of interoperability is the WG trying to achieve?
Is it the RPC operation layer? The content layer?
Are there multiple independent implementations of the
same read-write data model(s)?

Is the WG attempting to gather interoperability experience,
document it, and advance the protocol to Draft Standard?
Is the WG ready to move some transports to Historic if
there are not at least 2 independent implementations?

If not, why not?
It's been published for 2 years already.
When does the WG estimate that NETCONF will advance to DS?

>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      - clarifications can be done
>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)

What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?

Is the WG allowed to make non-backward-compatible changes
to the protocol or transports?

The base URI for the NETCONF protocol is going to change
(it better) if any observable changes are made to protocol
behavior.  Are there any 1.0 to 1.1 protocol migration
concerns?  Are there any issues related to mixing 1.0
and 1.1 agents in the same network?

IMO, this 4741-bis work item does not fully address the
scope and complexity of the problem space.


thanks,
Andy

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 10:32:43 2008
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Andy Bierman" <andy@netconfcentral.com>,
	"Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <mehmet.ersue@nsn.com>
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Andy,

Some of the issues that you are mentioning have been discussed in
Minneapolis. I believe that the chairs have made a reasonable effort to
catch the consensus in Minneapolis, which of course needs to be
confirmed by this discussion.  

Your question about 'when shall we go to PS' is in conflict with: 

> Is the WG allowed to make non-backward-compatible changes
> to the protocol or transports?

 If we answer here is 'yes' then we must recycle at PS and it will more
look like a 2.0 than a 1.1

BTW - we talk about the protocol in 4741bis, not sure what you mention
transports. 

Dan
(speaking as contributor)

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:25 PM
> To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); rbonica@juniper.net; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
> 
> Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> > Dear ADs (and WG),
> > 
> > based on the consensus after IETF 73 we prepared an update for the 
> > NETCONF WG charter.
> > 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> > 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the 
> specification in RFC4741
> >    is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
> > implementations. 
> >    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do 
> an rfc4741bis
> > with
> >    following constraints:
> > 
> 
> Please document the implementation experience first,
> before changing the protocol based on it.  I believe
> there was 1 interop test done awhile back, and Juergen
> has done some private testing on his own.
> 
> What level of interoperability is the WG trying to achieve?
> Is it the RPC operation layer? The content layer?
> Are there multiple independent implementations of the
> same read-write data model(s)?
> 
> Is the WG attempting to gather interoperability experience,
> document it, and advance the protocol to Draft Standard?
> Is the WG ready to move some transports to Historic if
> there are not at least 2 independent implementations?
> 
> If not, why not?
> It's been published for 2 years already.
> When does the WG estimate that NETCONF will advance to DS?
> 
> >      - bug fixes are to be done
> >      - clarifications can be done
> >      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
> IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
> to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
> that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
> and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
> better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?
> 
> Is the WG allowed to make non-backward-compatible changes
> to the protocol or transports?
> 
> The base URI for the NETCONF protocol is going to change
> (it better) if any observable changes are made to protocol
> behavior.  Are there any 1.0 to 1.1 protocol migration
> concerns?  Are there any issues related to mixing 1.0
> and 1.1 agents in the same network?
> 
> IMO, this 4741-bis work item does not fully address the
> scope and complexity of the problem space.
> 
> 
> thanks,
> Andy
> 
> 
_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 10:32:43 2008
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Andy Bierman" <andy@netconfcentral.com>,
	"Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <mehmet.ersue@nsn.com>
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Andy,

Some of the issues that you are mentioning have been discussed in
Minneapolis. I believe that the chairs have made a reasonable effort to
catch the consensus in Minneapolis, which of course needs to be
confirmed by this discussion.  

Your question about 'when shall we go to PS' is in conflict with: 

> Is the WG allowed to make non-backward-compatible changes
> to the protocol or transports?

 If we answer here is 'yes' then we must recycle at PS and it will more
look like a 2.0 than a 1.1

BTW - we talk about the protocol in 4741bis, not sure what you mention
transports. 

Dan
(speaking as contributor)

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:25 PM
> To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); rbonica@juniper.net; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
> 
> Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> > Dear ADs (and WG),
> > 
> > based on the consensus after IETF 73 we prepared an update for the 
> > NETCONF WG charter.
> > 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> > 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the 
> specification in RFC4741
> >    is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
> > implementations. 
> >    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do 
> an rfc4741bis
> > with
> >    following constraints:
> > 
> 
> Please document the implementation experience first,
> before changing the protocol based on it.  I believe
> there was 1 interop test done awhile back, and Juergen
> has done some private testing on his own.
> 
> What level of interoperability is the WG trying to achieve?
> Is it the RPC operation layer? The content layer?
> Are there multiple independent implementations of the
> same read-write data model(s)?
> 
> Is the WG attempting to gather interoperability experience,
> document it, and advance the protocol to Draft Standard?
> Is the WG ready to move some transports to Historic if
> there are not at least 2 independent implementations?
> 
> If not, why not?
> It's been published for 2 years already.
> When does the WG estimate that NETCONF will advance to DS?
> 
> >      - bug fixes are to be done
> >      - clarifications can be done
> >      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
> IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
> to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
> that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
> and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
> better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?
> 
> Is the WG allowed to make non-backward-compatible changes
> to the protocol or transports?
> 
> The base URI for the NETCONF protocol is going to change
> (it better) if any observable changes are made to protocol
> behavior.  Are there any 1.0 to 1.1 protocol migration
> concerns?  Are there any issues related to mixing 1.0
> and 1.1 agents in the same network?
> 
> IMO, this 4741-bis work item does not fully address the
> scope and complexity of the problem space.
> 
> 
> thanks,
> Andy
> 
> 
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com>
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On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:24:36AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> Please document the implementation experience first,
> before changing the protocol based on it.  I believe
> there was 1 interop test done awhile back, and Juergen
> has done some private testing on his own.

I will post a report shortly providing a high level overview of the
testing we have done so far. In short, we have written a test suite in
Python using the Python unit testing framework. And yes, we love to
get more implementations to test - so far we had three independent
impementations under test and I sure there are more implementations
out there.

> What level of interoperability is the WG trying to achieve?
> Is it the RPC operation layer? The content layer?
> Are there multiple independent implementations of the
> same read-write data model(s)?

Right now, some tests are duplicated for the different data models
boxes support. Right after the interim, I wrote together with Martin a
YANG model for VACM and we have test cases against this data model. We
hope that implementors can support this VACM data model so that we
have a common data model for edit-config tests.

In short, we try to test the messaging (hello and rpc messages), the
operations and their features (filtering etc.) and to a lesser extend
at the moment data model specifics (due to a lack of common data
models).

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:24:36AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> Please document the implementation experience first,
> before changing the protocol based on it.  I believe
> there was 1 interop test done awhile back, and Juergen
> has done some private testing on his own.

I will post a report shortly providing a high level overview of the
testing we have done so far. In short, we have written a test suite in
Python using the Python unit testing framework. And yes, we love to
get more implementations to test - so far we had three independent
impementations under test and I sure there are more implementations
out there.

> What level of interoperability is the WG trying to achieve?
> Is it the RPC operation layer? The content layer?
> Are there multiple independent implementations of the
> same read-write data model(s)?

Right now, some tests are duplicated for the different data models
boxes support. Right after the interim, I wrote together with Martin a
YANG model for VACM and we have test cases against this data model. We
hope that implementors can support this VACM data model so that we
have a common data model for edit-config tests.

In short, we try to test the messaging (hello and rpc messages), the
operations and their features (filtering etc.) and to a lesser extend
at the moment data model specifics (due to a lack of common data
models).

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 16:41:04 2008
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To: Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com>
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:40:56 -0800
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	"Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:02:19 -0800")
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>>>>> On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:02:19 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:

AB> Why can't the attacker just figure out exactly where the
AB> data is getting inserted and figure out how to close
AB> off the XML properly?

That's possible too, but a lot harder.  It requires knowledge of the
entire XML stream sent to the agent before the insertion point.  It's
doable, but takes a *lot* more effort as opposed to almost none for
inserting an EOM and hoping it's not checked.

Ask yourself how you would figure out how to close an existing session
properly.  Your choices are guessing a lot at all the open tags in
use (possibly including unknown name space prefixes) or sniffing the
wire (which fortunately we've made pretty hard).  Can it be done?  Yes.
Easily?  No.  It'll take many attempts to likely get it right.  An EOM
marker, on the other hand, looks like it'll succeed the first time.

AB> It seems like only a real (properly configured) ACM is going to
AB> help.

An ACM will only help if the web-based application is very limited in
what ACM rights it has.  We know this is smarFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 16:41:04 2008
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	"Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:02:19 -0800")
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>>>>> On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:02:19 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:

AB> Why can't the attacker just figure out exactly where the
AB> data is getting inserted and figure out how to close
AB> off the XML properly?

That's possible too, but a lot harder.  It requires knowledge of the
entire XML stream sent to the agent before the insertion point.  It's
doable, but takes a *lot* more effort as opposed to almost none for
inserting an EOM and hoping it's not checked.

Ask yourself how you would figure out how to close an existing session
properly.  Your choices are guessing a lot at all the open tags in
use (possibly including unknown name space prefixes) or sniffing the
wire (which fortunately we've made pretty hard).  Can it be done?  Yes.
Easily?  No.  It'll take many attempts to likely get it right.  An EOM
marker, on the other hand, looks like it'll succeed the first time.

AB> It seems like only a real (properly configured) ACM is going to
AB> help.

An ACM will only help if the web-based application is very limited in
what ACM rights it has.  We know this it.  However we know from
experience that not enough people put decent ACM systems in place too
(financial institutions and large companies do a better job than
mom-and-pop ISPs).


-- 
"In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap,
 and much more difficult to find."  -- Terry Pratchett
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s smart.  However we know from
experience that not enough people put decent ACM systems in place too
(financial institutions and large companies do a better job than
mom-and-pop ISPs).


-- 
"In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap,
 and much more difficult to find."  -- Terry Pratchett
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 17:09:26 2008
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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:02:19 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
> 
> AB> Why can't the attacker just figure out exactly where the
> AB> data is getting inserted and figure out how to close
> AB> off the XML properly?
> 
> That's possible too, but a lot harder.  It requires knowledge of the
> entire XML stream sent to the agent before the insertion point.  It's
> doable, but takes a *lot* more effort as opposed to almost none for
> inserting an EOM and hoping it's not checked.
> 
> Ask yourself how you would figure out how to close an existing session
> properly.  Your choices are guessing a lot at all the open tags in
> use (possibly including unknown name space prefixes) or sniffing the
> wire (which fortunately we've made pretty hard).  Can it be done?  Yes.
> Easily?  No.  It'll take many attempts to likely get it right.  An EOM
> marker, on the other hand, looks like it'll succeed the first time.
> 

The only top-level element of interest is <rpc>,
so no need to guess that.  The injected PDU is going to
have to be in an attribute in that start tag.
It is easy to finish off the <rpc> start tag,
then put in whatever PDU you want.  It is also
easy to begin another <rpc> start tag when your done,
so the next attribute (after the bad one) will
simply continue the RPC message stream.

You do not need to guess at anything, but it is a bit more work.


> AB> It seems like only a real (properly configured) ACM is going to
> AB> help.
> 
> An ACM will only help if the web-based application is very limited in
> what ACM rights it has.  We know this is smart.  However we know from
> experience that not enough people put decent ACM systems in place too
> (financial institutions and large companies do a better job than
> mom-and-pop ISPs).
> 
> 

Andy

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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:02:19 -0800, Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> said:
> 
> AB> Why can't the attacker just figure out exactly where the
> AB> data is getting inserted and figure out how to close
> AB> off the XML properly?
> 
> That's possible too, but a lot harder.  It requires knowledge of the
> entire XML stream sent to the agent before the insertion point.  It's
> doable, but takes a *lot* more effort as opposed to almost none for
> inserting an EOM and hoping it's not checked.
> 
> Ask yourself how you would figure out how to close an existing session
> properly.  Your choices are guessing a lot at all the open tags in
> use (possibly including unknown name space prefixes) or sniffing the
> wire (which fortunately we've made pretty hard).  Can it be done?  Yes.
> Easily?  No.  It'll take many attempts to likely get it right.  An EOM
> marker, on the other hand, looks like it'll succeed the first time.
> 

The only top-level element of interest is <rpc>,
so no need to guess that.  The injected PDU is going to
have to be in an attribute in that start tag.
It is easy to finish off the <rpc> start tag,
then put in whatever PDU you want.  It is also
easy to begin another <rpc> start tag when your done,
so the next attribute (after the bad one) will
simply continue the RPC message stream.

You do not need to guess at anything, but it is a bit more work.


> AB> It seems like only a real (properly configured) ACM is going to
> AB> help.
> 
> An ACM will only help if the web-based application is very limited in
> what ACM rights it has.  We know this is smart.  However we know from
> experience that not enough people put decent ACM systems in place too
> (financial institutions and large companies do a better job than
> mom-and-pop ISPs).
> 
> 

Andy

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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:35:57 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 05:09:14PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> The only top-level element of interest is <rpc>,
> so no need to guess that.  The injected PDU is going to
> have to be in an attribute in that start tag.

Why?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
NetcFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 11 23:36:13 2008
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On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 05:09:14PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> The only top-level element of interest is <rpc>,
> so no need to guess that.  The injected PDU is going to
> have to be in an attribute in that start tag.

Why?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
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t
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Dec 12 01:47:49 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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12 dec 2008 kl. 08.35 skrev Juergen Schoenwaelder:

> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 05:09:14PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
>
>> The only top-level element of interest is <rpc>,
>> so no need to guess that.  The injected PDU is going to
>> have to be in an attribute in that start tag.
>
> Why?

The hard lesson learned by the "SQL injection" crisis is that a client  
that doesn't properly and completely check it's input, effectively  
transfers any trust/authority it may have to whoever is capable of  
providing such input. This is a fact of life, and has very little to  
do with start tags or ]]>]]> EOM markers.

Just as a simple example, consider an application that prompts for a  
name and inserts it in its XML stream:

"""
<edit-config>
    <users>
        <user>
            <name>%s</name>
            <privileges>almost-nothing</privileges>
        </user>
    </users>
<edit-config>
"""

And someone responds with:
"cool-hacker</name><privileges>top-secret</privileges></ 
user><user><name>someone-else"

The good news is that it's very easy to fix this. Simply by removing  
(or XML escaping) all > characters in the user input (plus quotes if  
it inserts text in attributes), the application is safe.

> That's possible too, but a lot harder.  It requires knowledge of the
> entire XML stream sent to the agent before the insertion point.  It's
> doable, but takes a *lot* more effort as opposed to almost none for
> inserting an EOM and hoping it's not checked.

This appeals to the security-by-obscurity principle. It was (mostly)  
abandoned ca 1973.

/Jan Lindblad
--
Jan Lindblad, janl@tail-f.com, +46 702855728
Tail-f Systems, Professional Services, www.tail-f.com


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">12 =
dec 2008 kl. 08.35 skrev Juergen =
Schoenwaelder:</span></div></span></div></span></div><div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On =
Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 05:09:14PM -0800, Andy Bierman =
wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">The only top-level element of =
interest is &lt;rpc>,<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">so no =
need to guess that. &nbsp;The injected PDU is going =
to<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">have to be in an attribute =
in that start =
tag.<br></blockquote><br>Why?</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The =
hard lesson learned by the "SQL injection" crisis is that a client that =
doesn't properly and completely check it's input, effectively transfers =
any trust/authority it may have to whoever is capable of providing such =
input. This is a fact of life, and has very little to do with start tags =
or ]]>]]> EOM markers.</div><div><br></div><div>Just as a simple =
example, consider an application that prompts for a name and inserts it =
in its XML =
stream:</div><div><br></div>"""<br>&lt;edit-config><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
lt;users><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;user><br>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;name>%s&lt=
;/name><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&lt;privileges>almost-nothing&lt;/privileges><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;/user><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;/users><br>&lt;edi=
t-config><br>"""</div><div><br></div><div>And someone responds =
with:</div><div>"cool-hacker&lt;/name>&lt;privileges>top-secret&lt;/privil=
eges>&lt;/user>&lt;user>&lt;name>someone-else"<br><br></div><div>The =
good news is that it's very easy to fix this. Simply by removing (or XML =
escaping) all > characters in the user input (plus quotes if it inserts =
text in attributes), the application is =
safe.</div><div><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>That's=
 possible too, but a lot harder. &nbsp;It requires knowledge of =
the<br>entire XML stream sent to the agent before the insertion point. =
&nbsp;It's<br>doable, but takes a *lot* more effort as opposed to almost =
none for<br>inserting an EOM and hoping it's not =
checked.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This appeals to the =
security-by-obscurity principle. It was (mostly) abandoned ca =
1973.</div><div><br></div><div>/Jan Lindblad</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
"><div>--</div><div>Jan Lindblad,&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:janl@tail-f.com">janl@tail-f.com</a>, +46 =
702855728</div><div>Tail-f Systems, Professional Services, <a =
href=3D"http://www.tail-f.com">www.tail-f.com</a></div><div><br></div></sp=
an></div></body></html>=

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From: Jan Lindblad <janl@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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12 dec 2008 kl. 08.35 skrev Juergen Schoenwaelder:

> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 05:09:14PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
>
>> The only top-level element of interest is <rpc>,
>> so no need to guess that.  The injected PDU is going to
>> have to be in an attribute in that start tag.
>
> Why?

The hard lesson learned by the "SQL injection" crisis is that a client  
that doesn't properly and completely check it's input, effectively  
transfers any trust/authority it may have to whoever is capable of  
providing such input. This is a fact of life, and has very little to  
do with start tags or ]]>]]> EOM markers.

Just as a simple example, consider an application that prompts for a  
name and inserts it in its XML stream:

"""
<edit-config>
    <users>
        <user>
            <name>%s</name>
            <privileges>almost-nothing</privileges>
        </user>
    </users>
<edit-config>
"""

And someone responds with:
"cool-hacker</name><privileges>top-secret</privileges></ 
user><user><name>someone-else"

The good news is that it's very easy to fix this. Simply by removing  
(or XML escaping) all > characters in the user input (plus quotes if  
it inserts text in attributes), the application is safe.

> That's possible too, but a lot harder.  It requires knowledge of the
> entire XML stream sent to the agent before the insertion point.  It's
> doable, but takes a *lot* more effort as opposed to almost none for
> inserting an EOM and hoping it's not checked.

This appeals to the security-by-obscurity principle. It was (mostly)  
abandoned ca 1973.

/Jan Lindblad
--
Jan Lindblad, janl@tail-f.com, +46 702855728
Tail-f Systems, Professional Services, www.tail-f.com


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">12 =
dec 2008 kl. 08.35 skrev Juergen =
Schoenwaelder:</span></div></span></div></span></div><div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On =
Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 05:09:14PM -0800, Andy Bierman =
wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">The only top-level element of =
interest is &lt;rpc>,<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">so no =
need to guess that. &nbsp;The injected PDU is going =
to<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">have to be in an attribute =
in that start =
tag.<br></blockquote><br>Why?</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The =
hard lesson learned by the "SQL injection" crisis is that a client that =
doesn't properly and completely check it's input, effectively transfers =
any trust/authority it may have to whoever is capable of providing such =
input. This is a fact of life, and has very little to do with start tags =
or ]]>]]> EOM markers.</div><div><br></div><div>Just as a simple =
example, consider an application that prompts for a name and inserts it =
in its XML =
stream:</div><div><br></div>"""<br>&lt;edit-config><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
lt;users><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;user><br>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;name>%s&lt=
;/name><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&lt;privileges>almost-nothing&lt;/privileges><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;/user><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;/users><br>&lt;edi=
t-config><br>"""</div><div><br></div><div>And someone responds =
with:</div><div>"cool-hacker&lt;/name>&lt;privileges>top-secret&lt;/privil=
eges>&lt;/user>&lt;user>&lt;name>someone-else"<br><br></div><div>The =
good news is that it's very easy to fix this. Simply by removing (or XML =
escaping) all > characters in the user input (plus quotes if it inserts =
text in attributes), the application is =
safe.</div><div><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>That's=
 possible too, but a lot harder. &nbsp;It requires knowledge of =
the<br>entire XML stream sent to the agent before the insertion point. =
&nbsp;It's<br>doable, but takes a *lot* more effort as opposed to almost =
none for<br>inserting an EOM and hoping it's not =
checked.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This appeals to the =
security-by-obscurity principle. It was (mostly) abandoned ca =
1973.</div><div><br></div><div>/Jan Lindblad</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
"><div>--</div><div>Jan Lindblad,&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:janl@tail-f.com">janl@tail-f.com</a>, +46 =
702855728</div><div>Tail-f Systems, Professional Services, <a =
href=3D"http://www.tail-f.com">www.tail-f.com</a></div><div><br></div></sp=
an></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 05:09:14PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
>> The only top-level element of interest is <rpc>,
>> so no need to guess that.  The injected PDU is going to
>> have to be in an attribute in that start tag.
> 
> Why?
> 

There is the 'official' attribute hole in <rpc>, making it more likely.
But an implementation could be filling leafs blindly too, so this
could show up anywhere in the PDU.


> /js
> 

Andy

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 05:09:14PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
>> The only top-level element of interest is <rpc>,
>> so no need to guess that.  The injected PDU is going to
>> have to be in an attribute in that start tag.
> 
> Why?
> 

There is the 'official' attribute hole in <rpc>, making it more likely.
But an implementation could be filling leafs blindly too, so this
could show up anywhere in the PDU.


> /js
> 

Andy

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Jan Lindblad wrote:
> 12 dec 2008 kl. 08.35 skrev Juergen Schoenwaelder:
> 
>> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 05:09:14PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
>>
>>> The only top-level element of interest is <rpc>,
>>> so no need to guess that.  The injected PDU is going to
>>> have to be in an attribute in that start tag.
>>
>> Why?
> 
> The hard lesson learned by the "SQL injection" crisis is that a client 
> that doesn't properly and completely check it's input, effectively 
> transfers any trust/authority it may have to whoever is capable of 
> providing such input. This is a fact of life, and has very little to do 
> with start tags or ]]>]]> EOM markers.
> 
> Just as a simple example, consider an application that prompts for a 
> name and inserts it in its XML stream:
> 
> """
> <edit-config>
>    <users>
>        <user>
>            <name>%s</name>
>            <privileges>almost-nothing</privileges>
>        </user>
>    </users>
> <edit-config>
> """
> 
> And someone responds with:
> "cool-hacker</name><privileges>top-secret</privileges></user><user><name>someone-else"
> 
> The good news is that it's very easy to fix this. Simply by removing (or 
> XML escaping) all > characters in the user input (plus quotes if it 
> inserts text in attributes), the application is safe.
> 
>> That's possible too, but a lot harder.  It requires knowledge of the
>> entire XML stream sent to the agent before the insertion point.  It's
>> doable, but takes a *lot* more effort as opposed to almost none for
>> inserting an EOM and hoping it's not checked.
> 
> This appeals to the security-by-obscurity principle. It was (mostly) 
> abandoned ca 1973.
> 

great example...

Isn't part of the responsibility on the manager?

In your example, almost no ACM or agent mechanism is really going
to help.  If the user correctly establishes a session,
and has write access to the /users/user node, then injecting
an extra entry is going to be accepted.

(The super-fine VACM mode "let user X set leaf Y to value Z" is
way too hard to really be useful.)


> /Jan Lindblad

Andy

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Jan Lindblad wrote:
> 12 dec 2008 kl. 08.35 skrev Juergen Schoenwaelder:
> 
>> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 05:09:14PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
>>
>>> The only top-level element of interest is <rpc>,
>>> so no need to guess that.  The injected PDU is going to
>>> have to be in an attribute in that start tag.
>>
>> Why?
> 
> The hard lesson learned by the "SQL injection" crisis is that a client 
> that doesn't properly and completely check it's input, effectively 
> transfers any trust/authority it may have to whoever is capable of 
> providing such input. This is a fact of life, and has very little to do 
> with start tags or ]]>]]> EOM markers.
> 
> Just as a simple example, consider an application that prompts for a 
> name and inserts it in its XML stream:
> 
> """
> <edit-config>
>    <users>
>        <user>
>            <name>%s</name>
>            <privileges>almost-nothing</privileges>
>        </user>
>    </users>
> <edit-config>
> """
> 
> And someone responds with:
> "cool-hacker</name><privileges>top-secret</privileges></user><user><name>someone-else"
> 
> The good news is that it's very easy to fix this. Simply by removing (or 
> XML escaping) all > characters in the user input (plus quotes if it 
> inserts text in attributes), the application is safe.
> 
>> That's possible too, but a lot harder.  It requires knowledge of the
>> entire XML stream sent to the agent before the insertion point.  It's
>> doable, but takes a *lot* more effort as opposed to almost none for
>> inserting an EOM and hoping it's not checked.
> 
> This appeals to the security-by-obscurity principle. It was (mostly) 
> abandoned ca 1973.
> 

great example...

Isn't part of the responsibility on the manager?

In your example, almost no ACM or agent mechanism is really going
to help.  If the user correctly establishes a session,
and has write access to the /users/user node, then injecting
an extra entry is going to be accepted.

(The super-fine VACM mode "let user X set leaf Y to value Z" is
way too hard to really be useful.)


> /Jan Lindblad

Andy

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:33:23 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: netconf@ietf.org
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Subject: [Netconf] interoperability testing report
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--aM3YZ0Iwxop3KEKx
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Hi,

I am attaching a draft report of the interoperability tests we have
done at Jacobs University. We plan to continue this work and we are of
course interested to get more implementations so that we get a more
complete picture. If you want to help us, please get in touch with me.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:33:23 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: [Netconf] interoperability testing report
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Hi,

I am attaching a draft report of the interoperability tests we have
done at Jacobs University. We plan to continue this work and we are of
course interested to get more implementations so that we get a more
complete picture. If you want to help us, please get in touch with me.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Dec 12 13:13:48 2008
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:13:35 -0800
From: Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com>
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Cc: rbonica@juniper.net, netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote:
> Andy,
> 
> Some of the issues that you are mentioning have been discussed in
> Minneapolis. I believe that the chairs have made a reasonable effort to
> catch the consensus in Minneapolis, which of course needs to be
> confirmed by this discussion.  
> 
> Your question about 'when shall we go to PS' is in conflict with: 
> 
>> Is the WG allowed to make non-backward-compatible changes
>> to the protocol or transports?
> 
>  If we answer here is 'yes' then we must recycle at PS and it will more
> look like a 2.0 than a 1.1
> 

I don't mind cycling at Proposed Standard, but I do mind
wasting a revision cycle (which is N years in the IETF)
on fixing typos and clarifying text if the WG decides
that some of the functionality itself needs to be updated.

I do not want to introduce hack-based design into
the NETCONF protocol.  If it changes AT ALL, then
the capability URI needs to be updated.
The option of 'leave the version the same and
NETCONF peers can just guess what the other side
really implements' is not a good plan.

I am glad there are going to be 2 interoperability test
reports to start wiFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Dec 12 13:13:48 2008
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:13:35 -0800
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote:
> Andy,
> 
> Some of the issues that you are mentioning have been discussed in
> Minneapolis. I believe that the chairs have made a reasonable effort to
> catch the consensus in Minneapolis, which of course needs to be
> confirmed by this discussion.  
> 
> Your question about 'when shall we go to PS' is in conflict with: 
> 
>> Is the WG allowed to make non-backward-compatible changes
>> to the protocol or transports?
> 
>  If we answer here is 'yes' then we must recycle at PS and it will more
> look like a 2.0 than a 1.1
> 

I don't mind cycling at Proposed Standard, but I do mind
wasting a revision cycle (which is N years in the IETF)
on fixing typos and clarifying text if the WG decides
that some of the functionality itself needs to be updated.

I do not want to introduce hack-based design into
the NETCONF protocol.  If it changes AT ALL, then
the capability URI needs to be updated.
The option of 'leave the version the same and
NETCONF peers can just guess what the other side
really implements' is not a good plan.

I am glad there are going to be 2 interoperability test
reports to stth.  The charter should include an
issue (or sentence) saying that the WG will address any
1.0 and 1.1 co-existence issues as well.


> BTW - we talk about the protocol in 4741bis, not sure what you mention
> transports. 
> 

There has been some talk of removing the SSH EOM marker,
and that would be an incompatible change in 4742.  The charter does
mention that 4742 may get updated as well.


> Dan
> (speaking as contributor)
> 
>  


Andy

> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com] 
>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:25 PM
>> To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); rbonica@juniper.net; netconf@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
>>
>> Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>>> Dear ADs (and WG),
>>>
>>> based on the consensus after IETF 73 we prepared an update for the 
>>> NETCONF WG charter.
>>>
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the 
>> specification in RFC4741
>>>    is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
>>> implementations. 
>>>    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do 
>> an rfc4741bis
>>> with
>>>    following constraints:
>>>
>> Please document the implementation experience first,
>> before changing the protocol based on it.  I believe
>> there was 1 interop test done awhile back, and Juergen
>> has done some private testing on his own.
>>
>> What level of interoperability is the WG trying to achieve?
>> Is it the RPC operation layer? The content layer?
>> Are there multiple independent implementations of the
>> same read-write data model(s)?
>>
>> Is the WG attempting to gather interoperability experience,
>> document it, and advance the protocol to Draft Standard?
>> Is the WG ready to move some transports to Historic if
>> there are not at least 2 independent implementations?
>>
>> If not, why not?
>> It's been published for 2 years already.
>> When does the WG estimate that NETCONF will advance to DS?
>>
>>>      - bug fixes are to be done
>>>      - clarifications can be done
>>>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>> What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
>> IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
>> to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
>> that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
>> and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
>> better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?
>>
>> Is the WG allowed to make non-backward-compatible changes
>> to the protocol or transports?
>>
>> The base URI for the NETCONF protocol is going to change
>> (it better) if any observable changes are made to protocol
>> behavior.  Are there any 1.0 to 1.1 protocol migration
>> concerns?  Are there any issues related to mixing 1.0
>> and 1.1 agents in the same network?
>>
>> IMO, this 4741-bis work item does not fully address the
>> scope and complexity of the problem space.
>>
>>
>> thanks,
>> Andy
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 


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art with.  The charter should include an
issue (or sentence) saying that the WG will address any
1.0 and 1.1 co-existence issues as well.


> BTW - we talk about the protocol in 4741bis, not sure what you mention
> transports. 
> 

There has been some talk of removing the SSH EOM marker,
and that would be an incompatible change in 4742.  The charter does
mention that 4742 may get updated as well.


> Dan
> (speaking as contributor)
> 
>  


Andy

> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com] 
>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:25 PM
>> To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); rbonica@juniper.net; netconf@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
>>
>> Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>>> Dear ADs (and WG),
>>>
>>> based on the consensus after IETF 73 we prepared an update for the 
>>> NETCONF WG charter.
>>>
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the 
>> specification in RFC4741
>>>    is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
>>> implementations. 
>>>    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do 
>> an rfc4741bis
>>> with
>>>    following constraints:
>>>
>> Please document the implementation experience first,
>> before changing the protocol based on it.  I believe
>> there was 1 interop test done awhile back, and Juergen
>> has done some private testing on his own.
>>
>> What level of interoperability is the WG trying to achieve?
>> Is it the RPC operation layer? The content layer?
>> Are there multiple independent implementations of the
>> same read-write data model(s)?
>>
>> Is the WG attempting to gather interoperability experience,
>> document it, and advance the protocol to Draft Standard?
>> Is the WG ready to move some transports to Historic if
>> there are not at least 2 independent implementations?
>>
>> If not, why not?
>> It's been published for 2 years already.
>> When does the WG estimate that NETCONF will advance to DS?
>>
>>>      - bug fixes are to be done
>>>      - clarifications can be done
>>>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>> What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
>> IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
>> to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
>> that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
>> and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
>> better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?
>>
>> Is the WG allowed to make non-backward-compatible changes
>> to the protocol or transports?
>>
>> The base URI for the NETCONF protocol is going to change
>> (it better) if any observable changes are made to protocol
>> behavior.  Are there any 1.0 to 1.1 protocol migration
>> concerns?  Are there any issues related to mixing 1.0
>> and 1.1 agents in the same network?
>>
>> IMO, this 4741-bis work item does not fully address the
>> scope and complexity of the problem space.
>>
>>
>> thanks,
>> Andy
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 


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On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 01:13:35PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> I do not want to introduce hack-based design into
> the NETCONF protocol.

Who proposed to do that?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 01:13:35PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> I do not want to introduce hack-based design into
> the NETCONF protocol.

Who proposed to do that?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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>> The hard lesson learned by the "SQL injection" crisis is that a =20
>> client that doesn't properly and completely check it's input, =20
>> effectively transfers any trust/authority it may have to whoever is =20=

>> capable of providing such input. This is a fact of life, and has =20
>> very little to do with start tags or ]]>]]> EOM markers.
>> Just as a simple example, consider an application that prompts for =20=

>> a name and inserts it in its XML stream:
>> """
>> <edit-config>
>>   <users>
>>       <user>
>>           <name>%s</name>
>>           <privileges>almost-nothing</privileges>
>>       </user>
>>   </users>
>> <edit-config>
>> """
>> And someone responds with:
>> "cool-hacker</name><privileges>top-secret</privileges></=20
>> user><user><name>someone-else"
>> The good news is that it's very easy to fix this. Simply by =20
>> removing (or XML escaping) all > characters in the user input (plus =20=

>> quotes if it inserts text in attributes), the application is safe.
>>> That's possible too, but a lot harder.  It requires knowledge of the
>>> entire XML stream sent to the agent before the insertion point.  =20
>>> It's
>>> doable, but takes a *lot* more effort as opposed to almost none for
>>> inserting an EOM and hoping it's not checked.
>> This appeals to the security-by-obscurity principle. It was =20
>> (mostly) abandoned ca 1973.
>
> great example...
>
> Isn't part of the responsibility on the manager?

I don't think so. The server will not be able to tell whether the =20
above request is a legitimate creation of two users or a result of a =20
na=EFve client being tricked.

Look at a decade's worth of experience in the SQL injection defense. =20
It's all happening on the client side. There are basically two defense =20=

mechanisms:
- All user provided data is sent out-of-band, or
- All user provided data is cleaned from "control characters" or =20
control characters are escaped.

Doing something out-of-band on an SSH session seems complicated, but =20
with XML, cleaning is easy. Basically removing (or escaping) any =20
occurrences of > (in CDATA) and quotes (in attributes) will make it =20
impossible for a malicious user to modify the XML document structure.

> In your example, almost no ACM or agent mechanism is really going
> to help.  If the user correctly establishes a session,
> and has write access to the /users/user node, then injecting
> an extra entry is going to be accepted.
>
> (The super-fine VACM mode "let user X set leaf Y to value Z" is
> way too hard to really be useful.)

And even if ACM rules like this could be expressed, it wouldn't help =20
when the client really has the authority to create users with top-=20
secret privileges. The server could not distinguish between a sane and =20=

tricked client.

/Jan Lindblad


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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>> The hard lesson learned by the "SQL injection" crisis is that a =20
>> client that doesn't properly and completely check it's input, =20
>> effectively transfers any trust/authority it may have to whoever is =20=

>> capable of providing such input. This is a fact of life, and has =20
>> very little to do with start tags or ]]>]]> EOM markers.
>> Just as a simple example, consider an application that prompts for =20=

>> a name and inserts it in its XML stream:
>> """
>> <edit-config>
>>   <users>
>>       <user>
>>           <name>%s</name>
>>           <privileges>almost-nothing</privileges>
>>       </user>
>>   </users>
>> <edit-config>
>> """
>> And someone responds with:
>> "cool-hacker</name><privileges>top-secret</privileges></=20
>> user><user><name>someone-else"
>> The good news is that it's very easy to fix this. Simply by =20
>> removing (or XML escaping) all > characters in the user input (plus =20=

>> quotes if it inserts text in attributes), the application is safe.
>>> That's possible too, but a lot harder.  It requires knowledge of the
>>> entire XML stream sent to the agent before the insertion point.  =20
>>> It's
>>> doable, but takes a *lot* more effort as opposed to almost none for
>>> inserting an EOM and hoping it's not checked.
>> This appeals to the security-by-obscurity principle. It was =20
>> (mostly) abandoned ca 1973.
>
> great example...
>
> Isn't part of the responsibility on the manager?

I don't think so. The server will not be able to tell whether the =20
above request is a legitimate creation of two users or a result of a =20
na=EFve client being tricked.

Look at a decade's worth of experience in the SQL injection defense. =20
It's all happening on the client side. There are basically two defense =20=

mechanisms:
- All user provided data is sent out-of-band, or
- All user provided data is cleaned from "control characters" or =20
control characters are escaped.

Doing something out-of-band on an SSH session seems complicated, but =20
with XML, cleaning is easy. Basically removing (or escaping) any =20
occurrences of > (in CDATA) and quotes (in attributes) will make it =20
impossible for a malicious user to modify the XML document structure.

> In your example, almost no ACM or agent mechanism is really going
> to help.  If the user correctly establishes a session,
> and has write access to the /users/user node, then injecting
> an extra entry is going to be accepted.
>
> (The super-fine VACM mode "let user X set leaf Y to value Z" is
> way too hard to really be useful.)

And even if ACM rules like this could be expressed, it wouldn't help =20
when the client really has the authority to create users with top-=20
secret privileges. The server could not distinguish between a sane and =20=

tricked client.

/Jan Lindblad


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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Dec 12 15:14:11 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 01:13:35PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
>> I do not want to introduce hack-based design into
>> the NETCONF protocol.
> 
> Who proposed to do that?
> 

Nobody, because nobody is going to suggest that we should
leave the base capability URI the same if a compliant 1.0
manager or agent is not 1.1 compliant as well.

If there is no 1.1 URI, then there is no 1.1 protocol,
just clarifying non-changes.  However, the IETF has been
known to stretch the meaning of a clarifying non-change,
which IMO is wrong.

> /js
> 

Andy

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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 01:13:35PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
>> I do not want to introduce hack-based design into
>> the NETCONF protocol.
> 
> Who proposed to do that?
> 

Nobody, because nobody is going to suggest that we should
leave the base capability URI the same if a compliant 1.0
manager or agent is not 1.1 compliant as well.

If there is no 1.1 URI, then there is no 1.1 protocol,
just clarifying non-changes.  However, the IETF has been
known to stretch the meaning of a clarifying non-change,
which IMO is wrong.

> /js
> 

Andy

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Dec 14 02:45:43 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Hi,

Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> >      - bug fixes are to be done
> >      - clarifications can be done
> >      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
> IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
> to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
> that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
> and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
> better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?

This particular case could be handled by incrementing the minor
version for the :validate capability so that the URI is:

  urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1

This 1.1 version is backwards compatible, but an old client will not
understand that, so a server that wants to support both old and new
clients would advertise both versions:

  urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.0
  urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1

The proposed charter text says:

      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)

I guess this would be an extension, but it's not really "netconf v2".

> The base URI for the NETCONF protocol is going to change
> (it better) if any observable changes are made to protocol
> behavior.

I don't think that any changes has been proposed that would affect the
base capability.  *maybe* some subtree filtering changes could fall
into this category.

> Are there any 1.0 to 1.1 protocol migration
> concerns?From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Dec 14 02:45:43 2008
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Hi,

Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> >      - bug fixes are to be done
> >      - clarifications can be done
> >      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
> IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
> to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
> that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
> and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
> better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?

This particular case could be handled by incrementing the minor
version for the :validate capability so that the URI is:

  urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1

This 1.1 version is backwards compatible, but an old client will not
understand that, so a server that wants to support both old and new
clients would advertise both versions:

  urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.0
  urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1

The proposed charter text says:

      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)

I guess this would be an extension, but it's not really "netconf v2".

> The base URI for the NETCONF protocol is going to change
> (it better) if any observable changes are made to protocol
> behavior.

I don't think that any changes has been proposed that would affect the
base capability.  *maybe* some subtree filtering changes could fall
into this category.

> Are there any 1.0 to 1.1 protocol migration
> concerns?  Are there any issues related to mixing 1.0
> and 1.1 agents in the same network?
> 
> IMO, this 4741-bis work item does not fully address the
> scope and complexity of the problem space.

I'm not sure I understand this - do you want to see such changes, or
are you worried that the charter allows such changes?


/martin
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


  Are there any issues related to mixing 1.0
> and 1.1 agents in the same network?
> 
> IMO, this 4741-bis work item does not fully address the
> scope and complexity of the problem space.

I'm not sure I understand this - do you want to see such changes, or
are you worried that the charter allows such changes?


/martin
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Dec 14 05:30:19 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>>>      - bug fixes are to be done
>>>      - clarifications can be done
>>>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>> What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
>> IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
>> to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
>> that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
>> and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
>> better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?
> 
> This particular case could be handled by incrementing the minor
> version for the :validate capability so that the URI is:
> 
>   urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1
> 
> This 1.1 version is backwards compatible, but an old client will not
> understand that, so a server that wants to support both old and new
> clients would advertise both versions:
> 
>   urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.0
>   urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1
> 

There are lots of ways the protocol could get changed,
such as addingFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Dec 14 05:30:19 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>>>      - bug fixes are to be done
>>>      - clarifications can be done
>>>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>> What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
>> IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
>> to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
>> that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
>> and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
>> better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?
> 
> This particular case could be handled by incrementing the minor
> version for the :validate capability so that the URI is:
> 
>   urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1
> 
> This 1.1 version is backwards compatible, but an old client will not
> understand that, so a server that wants to support both old and new
> clients would advertise both versions:
> 
>   urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.0
>   urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1
> 

There are lots of ways the protocol could get changed,
such as  new capabilities, without bumping
the base capability.  What matters is whether the 1.0
client continues to work even though it does
not know about these new capabilities.

> The proposed charter text says:
> 
>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> I guess this would be an extension, but it's not really "netconf v2".
> 
>> The base URI for the NETCONF protocol is going to change
>> (it better) if any observable changes are made to protocol
>> behavior.
> 
> I don't think that any changes has been proposed that would affect the
> base capability.  *maybe* some subtree filtering changes could fall
> into this category.
> 
>> Are there any 1.0 to 1.1 protocol migration
>> concerns?  Are there any issues related to mixing 1.0
>> and 1.1 agents in the same network?
>>
>> IMO, this 4741-bis work item does not fully address the
>> scope and complexity of the problem space.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand this - do you want to see such changes, or
> are you worried that the charter allows such changes?
> 

If the IESG is happy with the charter, then fine.
It looks a bit unclear to me.  IMO it is a waste
of 2 - 3 years work to cycle at Proposed Standard for
a few penny-ante tweaks and bug-fixes.


> 
> /martin
> 
> 
> 

Andy

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adding new capabilities, without bumping
the base capability.  What matters is whether the 1.0
client continues to work even though it does
not know about these new capabilities.

> The proposed charter text says:
> 
>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> I guess this would be an extension, but it's not really "netconf v2".
> 
>> The base URI for the NETCONF protocol is going to change
>> (it better) if any observable changes are made to protocol
>> behavior.
> 
> I don't think that any changes has been proposed that would affect the
> base capability.  *maybe* some subtree filtering changes could fall
> into this category.
> 
>> Are there any 1.0 to 1.1 protocol migration
>> concerns?  Are there any issues related to mixing 1.0
>> and 1.1 agents in the same network?
>>
>> IMO, this 4741-bis work item does not fully address the
>> scope and complexity of the problem space.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand this - do you want to see such changes, or
> are you worried that the charter allows such changes?
> 

If the IESG is happy with the charter, then fine.
It looks a bit unclear to me.  IMO it is a waste
of 2 - 3 years work to cycle at Proposed Standard for
a few penny-ante tweaks and bug-fixes.


> 
> /martin
> 
> 
> 

Andy

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On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 05:30:07AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> IMO it is a waste of 2 - 3 years work to cycle at Proposed Standard
> for a few penny-ante tweaks and bug-fixes.

It takes 2-3 if _we_ make it take 2-3 years. The charter has a much
shorter time plan and it is up to us to stick to it.

Our testing experience is that there are things that implementors have
done differently and I believe we do this exercise with the goal to
improve and document interoperability. I believe this is worth it.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
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On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 05:30:07AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> IMO it is a waste of 2 - 3 years work to cycle at Proposed Standard
> for a few penny-ante tweaks and bug-fixes.

It takes 2-3 if _we_ make it take 2-3 years. The charter has a much
shorter time plan and it is up to us to stick to it.

Our testing experience is that there are things that implementors have
done differently and I believe we do this exercise with the goal to
improve and document interoperability. I believe this is worth it.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 05:30:07AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
>> IMO it is a waste of 2 - 3 years work to cycle at Proposed Standard
>> for a few penny-ante tweaks and bug-fixes.
> 
> It takes 2-3 if _we_ make it take 2-3 years. The charter has a much
> shorter time plan and it is up to us to stick to it.
> 
> Our testing experience is that there are things that implementors have
> done differently and I believe we do this exercise with the goal to
> improve and document interoperability. I believe this is worth it.
> 

IMO, lots of protocol versions (and capability-based variants)
over the years has a high cost.  In the long run, lots of little
versions aren't really better that 2 or 3 big versions.


> /js
>


Andy

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 05:30:07AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
>> IMO it is a waste of 2 - 3 years work to cycle at Proposed Standard
>> for a few penny-ante tweaks and bug-fixes.
> 
> It takes 2-3 if _we_ make it take 2-3 years. The charter has a much
> shorter time plan and it is up to us to stick to it.
> 
> Our testing experience is that there are things that implementors have
> done differently and I believe we do this exercise with the goal to
> improve and document interoperability. I believe this is worth it.
> 

IMO, lots of protocol versions (and capability-based variants)
over the years has a high cost.  In the long run, lots of little
versions aren't really better that 2 or 3 big versions.


> /js
>


Andy

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Hi,
...
> The proposed charter text says:
> 
>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> I guess this would be an extension, but it's not really "netconf v2".
> 

I do not understand the premise of this statement,
or real purpose of this charter.  Why are extensions
to the protocol bad, but optional capabilities are good?

Is the purpose of the charter to clarify the document without
changing the protocol, or to make both the document and
the protocol better?

Several NMS developers (including our former NETMOD co-Chair)
have stated in the past that optional agent features are not
that useful to them.  NETCONF seems to be very agent-centric,
focusing on flexibility rather than avoiding it.

In the long run, 200 permutations of a feature set has its drawbacks,
especially wrt/ NMS complexity and a large, complicated document set.

> 
> /martin
> 
> 
> 

Andy

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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Hi,
...
> The proposed charter text says:
> 
>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> I guess this would be an extension, but it's not really "netconf v2".
> 

I do not understand the premise of this statement,
or real purpose of this charter.  Why are extensions
to the protocol bad, but optional capabilities are good?

Is the purpose of the charter to clarify the document without
changing the protocol, or to make both the document and
the protocol better?

Several NMS developers (including our former NETMOD co-Chair)
have stated in the past that optional agent features are not
that useful to them.  NETCONF seems to be very agent-centric,
focusing on flexibility rather than avoiding it.

In the long run, 200 permutations of a feature set has its drawbacks,
especially wrt/ NMS complexity and a large, complicated document set.

> 
> /martin
> 
> 
> 

Andy

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Andy writes:
> The proposed charter text says:
> 
>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> I guess this would be an extension, but it's not really "netconf v2".
> 

   I do not understand the premise of this statement,
   or real purpose of this charter.  Why are extensions
   to the protocol bad, but optional capabilities are good?

   Is the purpose of the charter to clarify the document without
   changing the protocol, or to make both the document and
   the protocol better?

The PURSPOSE of the charter is to CLARIFY things that have
caused variations of implementation (because of mis-understanding)
and to FIX any BUGS that we have uncovered.
And as such, we have set ourselves a ratehr SHORT TIMELINE,
namely we want to submit to thge IESG by JUNE 2009!

That is how I (for one) understood the consensus we had at IETF73
and as it was confirmed (or not opposed) on the mailing list.

Bert

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Andy writes:
> The proposed charter text says:
> 
>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> I guess this would be an extension, but it's not really "netconf v2".
> 

   I do not understand the premise of this statement,
   or real purpose of this charter.  Why are extensions
   to the protocol bad, but optional capabilities are good?

   Is the purpose of the charter to clarify the document without
   changing the protocol, or to make both the document and
   the protocol better?

The PURSPOSE of the charter is to CLARIFY things that have
caused variations of implementation (because of mis-understanding)
and to FIX any BUGS that we have uncovered.
And as such, we have set ourselves a ratehr SHORT TIMELINE,
namely we want to submit to thge IESG by JUNE 2009!

That is how I (for one) understood the consensus we had at IETF73
and as it was confirmed (or not opposed) on the mailing list.

Bert

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Netconf mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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	"Andy Bierman" <andy@netconfcentral.com>
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Cc: rbonica@juniper.net, netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Exactly.
Andy, do you want to add to the charter:

    If the WG turns out not to get consensus on the new document by June =
2009,
    then we will abolish the effort at that time.

That would make it clear to everyone that we're are NOT going to drag =
this piece of
work out forever. I am willing to take responsibility for that as one of =
the co-chairs.

If we (that is the WG) are eager to do what we set out to do, then it =
should NOT drag out.

Bert
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Juergen Schoenwaelder=20
  To: Andy Bierman=20
  Cc: rbonica@juniper.net ; netconf@ietf.org=20
  Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change


  On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 05:30:07AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

  > IMO it is a waste of 2 - 3 years work to cycle at Proposed Standard
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To: <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,
	"Andy Bierman" <andy@netconfcentral.com>
References: <A294F5A3E722D94FBEB6D49C1506F6F70163439F@DEMUEXC005.nsn-intra.net><49415AE4.6070708@netconfcentral.com><20081214.114531.134024997.mbj@tail-f.com><49450A5F.2050401@netconfcentral.com>
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Cc: rbonica@juniper.net, netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Exactly.
Andy, do you want to add to the charter:

    If the WG turns out not to get consensus on the new document by June =
2009,
    then we will abolish the effort at that time.

That would make it clear to everyone that we're are NOT going to drag =
this piece of
work out forever. I am willing to take responsibility for that as one of =
the co-chairs.

If we (that is the WG) are eager to do what we set out to do, then it =
should NOT drag out.

Bert
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Juergen Schoenwaelder=20
  To: Andy Bierman=20
  Cc: rbonica@juniper.net ; netconf@ietf.org=20
  Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change


  On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 05:30:07AM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

  > IMO it is a waste of 2 - 3 years work to cycle at Proposed Standard
  > for > for a few penny-ante tweaks and bug-fixes.

  It takes 2-3 if _we_ make it take 2-3 years. The charter has a much
  shorter time plan and it is up to us to stick to it.

  Our testing experience is that there are things that implementors have
  done differently and I believe we do this exercise with the goal to
  improve and document interoperability. I believe this is worth it.

  /js

  --=20
  Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
  Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
  Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
  _______________________________________________
  Netconf mailing list
  Netconf@ietf.org
  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6001.18157" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Exactly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Andy, do you want to add to the =
charter:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If the WG turns out not to get =
consensus on=20
the new document by June 2009,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; then we will abolish the effort =
at that=20
time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>That would make it clear to everyone that we're are =
NOT going=20
to drag this piece of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>work out forever. I am willing to take =
responsibility for that=20
as one of the co-chairs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If we (that is the WG) are eager to do what we set =
out to do,=20
then it should NOT drag out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dj.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de=20
  href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de">Juergen =
Schoenwaelder</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dandy@netconfcentral.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com">Andy Bierman</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=3Drbonica@juniper.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net">rbonica@juniper.net</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =
href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 =
2:57=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Netconf] Request =
for=20
  charter change</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 05:30:07AM -0800, Andy Bierman=20
  wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; IMO it is a waste of 2 - 3 years work to cycle at =
Proposed=20
  Standard<BR>&gt; for a few penny-ante tweaks and bug-fixes.<BR><BR>It =
takes=20
  2-3 if _we_ make it take 2-3 years. The charter has a much<BR>shorter =
time=20
  plan and it is up to us to stick to it.<BR><BR>Our testing experience =
is that=20
  there are things that implementors have<BR>done differently and I =
believe we=20
  do this exercise with the goal to<BR>improve and document =
interoperability. I=20
  believe this is worth it.<BR><BR>/js<BR><BR>-- <BR>Juergen=20
  =
Schoenwaelder&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
=20
  Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH<BR>Phone: +49 421 200=20
  3587&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Campus Ring 1, =
28759=20
  Bremen, Germany<BR>Fax:&nbsp;&nbsp; +49 421 200=20
  3103&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt; a few penny-ante tweaks and bug-fixes.

  It takes 2-3 if _we_ make it take 2-3 years. The charter has a much
  shorter time plan and it is up to us to stick to it.

  Our testing experience is that there are things that implementors have
  done differently and I believe we do this exercise with the goal to
  improve and document interoperability. I believe this is worth it.

  /js

  --=20
  Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
  Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
  Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
  _______________________________________________
  Netconf mailing list
  Netconf@ietf.org
  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Exactly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Andy, do you want to add to the =
charter:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If the WG turns out not to get =
consensus on=20
the new document by June 2009,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; then we will abolish the effort =
at that=20
time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>That would make it clear to everyone that we're are =
NOT going=20
to drag this piece of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>work out forever. I am willing to take =
responsibility for that=20
as one of the co-chairs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If we (that is the WG) are eager to do what we set =
out to do,=20
then it should NOT drag out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dj.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de=20
  href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de">Juergen =
Schoenwaelder</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dandy@netconfcentral.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com">Andy Bierman</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=3Drbonica@juniper.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net">rbonica@juniper.net</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =
href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 =
2:57=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Netconf] Request =
for=20
  charter change</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 05:30:07AM -0800, Andy Bierman=20
  wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; IMO it is a waste of 2 - 3 years work to cycle at =
Proposed=20
  Standard<BR>&gt; for a few penny-ante tweaks and bug-fixes.<BR><BR>It =
takes=20
  2-3 if _we_ make it take 2-3 years. The charter has a much<BR>shorter =
time=20
  plan and it is up to us to stick to it.<BR><BR>Our testing experience =
is that=20
  there are things that implementors have<BR>done differently and I =
believe we=20
  do this exercise with the goal to<BR>improve and document =
interoperability. I=20
  believe this is worth it.<BR><BR>/js<BR><BR>-- <BR>Juergen=20
  =
Schoenwaelder&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
=20
  Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH<BR>Phone: +49 421 200=20
  3587&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Campus Ring 1, =
28759=20
  Bremen, Germany<BR>Fax:&nbsp;&nbsp; +49 421 200=20
  3103&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;<A=20
<A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.jacobs-university.de/">http://www.jacobs-university.de=
/</A>&gt;<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Netconf=20
  mailing list<BR><A =
href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</A><BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

--===============0181318779==--



  =
href=3D"http://www.jacobs-university.de/">http://www.jacobs-university.de=
/</A>&gt;<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Netconf=20
  mailing list<BR><A =
href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</A><BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
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Cc: rbonica@juniper.net, netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Bert Wijnen (IETF) wrote:
> Exactly.
> Andy, do you want to add to the charter:
>  
>     If the WG turns out not to get consensus on the new document by June 
> 2009,
>     then we will abolish the effort at that time.
>  

No, I do not want to add artificial deadlines to the charter.
I never really got an answer on the very real corner-case
(test-only enum), if this is in scope for 4741-bis or
is this going to be (yet another) little optional capability
added in the future.

Of course it is good to have the NETCONF protocol be as
clear as possible for everybody to understand.  Publishing
a 4741-bis is just one way to fix errata and clarify
details.  Some WGs use an Implementation Guidelines RFC
for that purpose, for example.

I prefer a 2 year effort to produce NETCONF 2.0,
starting some time after NETMOD is done, instead of a 'small-as-possible'
update to NETCONF 1.0.  I think we will find opportunities
for protocol improvement as more YANG content is implemented.

I do not object to the current charter, because with Bert in charge,
there isn't going to be any missed milestones.  I do not think
the WG will have any problem finishing 4741-bis before YANG is
done, but I'm not so sure about RFC publication.




> That would make it clear to everyone that we're are NOT going to drag 
> this piece of
> work out forever. I am willing to take responsibility for that as one of 
> the co-chairs.
>  
> If we (that is the WG) are eager to do what we set out to do, then it 
> should NOT drag out.
>  
> Bert
> 


Andy

_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Bert Wijnen (IETF) wrote:
> Exactly.
> Andy, do you want to add to the charter:
>  
>     If the WG turns out not to get consensus on the new document by June 
> 2009,
>     then we will abolish the effort at that time.
>  

No, I do not want to add artificial deadlines to the charter.
I never really got an answer on the very real corner-case
(test-only enum), if this is in scope for 4741-bis or
is this going to be (yet another) little optional capability
added in the future.

Of course it is good to have the NETCONF protocol be as
clear as possible for everybody to understand.  Publishing
a 4741-bis is just one way to fix errata and clarify
details.  Some WGs use an Implementation Guidelines RFC
for that purpose, for example.

I prefer a 2 year effort to produce NETCONF 2.0,
starting some time after NETMOD is done, instead of a 'small-as-possible'
update to NETCONF 1.0.  I think we will find opportunities
for protocol improvement as more YANG content is implemented.

I do not object to the current charter, because with Bert in charge,
there isn't going to be any missed milestones.  I do not think
the WG will have any problem finishing 4741-bis before YANG is
done, but I'm not so sure about RFC publication.




> That would make it clear to everyone that we're are NOT going to drag 
> this piece of
> work out forever. I am willing to take responsibility for that as one of 
> the co-chairs.
>  
> If we (that is the WG) are eager to do what we set out to do, then it 
> should NOT drag out.
>  
> Bert
> 


Andy

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <mehmet.ersue@nsn.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Dear NETCONF Members,

Dan agreed to bring the charter update proposal to the IESG 
telechat on 12/18 to enable the approval before Christmas.

Please speak up if you disagree with the proposed new charter 
text by 12/16 5pm ET.

Cheers, 
Mehmet
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org 
> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ersue, 
> Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 5:29 PM
> To: ext Romascanu, Dan (Dan); rbonica@juniper.net; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: [Netconf] Request for charter change
> 
> 
> Dear ADs (and WG),
> 
> based on the consensus after IETF 73 we prepared an update 
> for the NETCONF WG charter. 
> 
> Dan, Ron: Could you please approve that the extended charter 
> text be posted as our current WG charter page and forward it to 
> iesg-secretary if approve <<081211_NETCONF WG Charter text.txt>> d 
> <<Diff WGCharter-20080821-WGCharter-20081211.htm>> ? 
>   
> Thank you.
> 
> Bert and Mehmet
> 
> Attached is the new charter and a rfcdiff of old and new charter.
> And here is the main body of the charter text:
> 
> Configuration of networks of devices has become a critical requirement
> for operators in today's highly interoperable networks. Operators from
> large to small have developed their own mechanisms or used vendor
> specific mechanisms to transfer configuration data to and from a
> device, and for examining device state information which may impact
> the configuration. Each of these mechanisms may be different in
> various aspects, such as session establishment, user authentication,
> configuration data exchange, and error responses.
> 
> The NETCONF Working Group is chartered to produce a protocol suitable
> for network configuration, with the following characteristics:
> 
> - Provides retrieval mechanisms which can differentiate between
>   configuration data and non-configuration data
> - Is extensible enough so that vendors will provide access to all
>   configuration data on the device using a single protocol
> - Has a programmatic interface (avoids screen scraping and
>   formatting-related changes between releases)
> - Uses a textual data representation, that can be easily manipulated
>   using non-specialized text manipulation tools.
> - Supports integration with existing user authentication methods
> - Supports integration with existing configuration database systems
> - Supports network wide configuration transactions (with features such
>   as locking and rollback capability)
> - Is as transport-independent as possible
> - Provides support for asynchronous notifications.
> 
> The NETCONF protocol is using XML for data encoding purposes, because
> XML is a widely deployed standard which is supported by a large number
> of applications.
> 
> The NETCONF protocol should be independent of the data definition
> language and data models used to describe configuration and state
> data.
> 
> However, the authorization model used in the protocol is dependent on
> the data model. Although these issues must be fully addressed to
> develop standard data models, only a small part of this work will be
> initially addressed. This group will specify requirements for standard
> data models in order to fully support the NETCONF protocol, such as:
> 
> - identification of principals, such as user names or distinguished
> names
> - mechanism to distinguish configuration from non-configuration data
> - XML namespace conventions
> - XML usage guidelines
> 
> The initial work started in 2003 and has already been 
> completed and was
> restricted to following items:
> 
>   a) NETCONF Protocol Specification, which defines the operational
> model,
>      protocol operations, transaction model, data model requirements,
>      security requirements, and transport layer requirements.
>   b) NETCONF over SSH Specification: Implementation Mandatory,
>   c) NETCONF over BEEP Specification: Implementation Optional,
>   d) NETCONF over SOAP Specification: Implementation Optional.
> 
>   These documents define how the NETCONF protocol is used with each
>   transport protocol selected by the working group, and how it meets
>   the security and transport layer requirements of the 
> NETCONF Protocol
>   Specification.
> 
>   e) NETCONF Notification Specification, which defines mechanisms that
>      provide an asynchronous message notification delivery service for
>      the NETCONF protocol.  NETCONF Notification is an optional
>      capability built on top of the base NETCONF definition and
>      provides the capabilities and operations necessary to support
>      this service.
> 
>   The NETCONF notification specification has been finished 
> now as well.
> 
> In the current phase of the incremental development of NETCONF the
> workgroup will focus on following items:
> 
> 1. Fine-grain locking: The base NETCONF protocol only provides a lock
>    for the entire configuration datastore, which is not deemed to meet
>    important operational and security requirements. The 
> NETCONF working
>    group will produce a standards-track RFC specifying a mechanism for
>    fine-grain locking of the NETCONF configuration datastore.
> 
> 2. NETCONF monitoring: It is considered best practice for IETF working
>    groups to include management of their protocols within the scope of
>    the solution they are providing. The NETCONF working group will
>    produce a standards-track RFC with mechanisms allowing NETCONF
>    itself to be used to monitor some aspects of NETCONF operation.
> 
> 3. Schema advertisement: Currently the NETCONF protocol is able to
>    advertise which protocol features are supported on a particular
>    netconf-capable device. However, there is currently no way to
> discover
>    which XML Schema are supported on the device. The NETCONF working
>    group will produce a standards-track RFC with mechanisms 
> making this
>    discovery possible (this item may be merged with "NETCONF 
> monitoring"
>    into a single document).
> 
>    Note: The schema-advertisement material has been merged into the
>    NETCONF monitoring document based on WG consensus.
> 
> 4. NETCONF over TLS: Based on implementation experience there is a
>    need for a standards track document to define NETCONF over 
> TLS as an
>    optional transport for the NETCONF protocol.
> 
> 5. NETCONF default handling: NETCONF today does not define whether
>    default values should be returned by the server in replies
>    to requests for reading configuration and state data. Different
>    clients have different needs to receive or not to receive
>    default data. The NETCONF working group will produce a
>    standards-track RFC defining a mechanism that allows
>    NETCONF clients to control whether default data is returned
>    by the netconf server.
> 
> 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the specification 
> in RFC4741
>    is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
> implementations. 
>    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an 
> rfc4741bis
> with
>    following constraints:
> 
>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      - clarifications can be done
>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>      - The work can be started based on the discussion in 
> IETF #73 (see
>         http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf).
> 
>    Note: A technical errata has been posted on rfc4742. If the work on
>    rfc4741bis uncovers any additional fixes/clarifications that need
>    to be made to rfc4742, the WG may consider to also do a rfc4742bis
>    as part of this work-item.
> 
> The following items have been identified as important but are 
> currently
> not considered in scope for re-chartering and may be 
> candidates for work
> when there is community consensus to take them on:
> 
> - NETCONF Notification content
> - Access Control requirements
> - NETCONF access to SMI-based MIB data
> 
> 
> Goals and Milestones:
> Done   Working Group formed
> Done   Submit initial Netconf Protocol draft
> Done   Submit initial Netconf over (transport-TBD) draft
> Done   Begin Working Group Last Call for the Netconf Protocol draft
> Done   Begin Working Group Last Call for the Netconf over
> (transport-TBD)
>             draft
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf Protocol draft to the IESG
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over SOAP draft to the IESG
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over BEEP draft to the IESG
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over SSH draft to the IESG
> Done   Update charter
> Done   Submit first version of NETCONF Notifications document
> Done   Begin WGLC of NETCONF Notifications document
> Done   Submit final version of NETCONF Notifications document to IESG
>             for consideration as Proposed Standard
> Done   -00 draft for fine Grain Locking
> Done   -00 draft for NETCONF over TLS
> Done   -00 draft for NETCONF Monitoring
> Done   -00 draft for Schema Advertisement
> Done   Early Review of client authentication approach (for 
> NETCONF over
>             TLS) with the security community at IETF 71
> N.A.     WG Last Call on Schema Advertisement after IETF72
>             Schema Advertisement has been merged into Monitoring
> Done    WG Last Call on NETCONF over TLS after IETF72
> Done    Netconf over TLS to IESG for consideration as 
> Proposed Standards
> Dec 2008  WG Last Call on Fine Grain Locking after IETF73
> Dec 2008  Send Partial Locking to IESG for consideration as Proposed
> Standards
> Jan 2009   Initial WG draft for with-defaults capability
> Feb 2009   Initial WG draft for rfc4741bis
> Mar 2009   WG Last Call on NETCONF Monitoring after IETF73
> Apr 2009   WG Last Call on rfc4741bis
> Apr 2009   WG Last Call on with-defaults
> Jun 2009   rfc4741bis to IESG for considerations as Proposed Standard
> Jun 2009   with-defaults capability to IESG for considerations as
> Proposed Standard
> 
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From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <mehmet.ersue@nsn.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Dear NETCONF Members,

Dan agreed to bring the charter update proposal to the IESG 
telechat on 12/18 to enable the approval before Christmas.

Please speak up if you disagree with the proposed new charter 
text by 12/16 5pm ET.

Cheers, 
Mehmet
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org 
> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ersue, 
> Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 5:29 PM
> To: ext Romascanu, Dan (Dan); rbonica@juniper.net; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: [Netconf] Request for charter change
> 
> 
> Dear ADs (and WG),
> 
> based on the consensus after IETF 73 we prepared an update 
> for the NETCONF WG charter. 
> 
> Dan, Ron: Could you please approve that the extended charter 
> text be posted as our current WG charter page and forward it to 
> iesg-secretary if approve <<081211_NETCONF WG Charter text.txt>> d 
> <<Diff WGCharter-20080821-WGCharter-20081211.htm>> ? 
>   
> Thank you.
> 
> Bert and Mehmet
> 
> Attached is the new charter and a rfcdiff of old and new charter.
> And here is the main body of the charter text:
> 
> Configuration of networks of devices has become a critical requirement
> for operators in today's highly interoperable networks. Operators from
> large to small have developed their own mechanisms or used vendor
> specific mechanisms to transfer configuration data to and from a
> device, and for examining device state information which may impact
> the configuration. Each of these mechanisms may be different in
> various aspects, such as session establishment, user authentication,
> configuration data exchange, and error responses.
> 
> The NETCONF Working Group is chartered to produce a protocol suitable
> for network configuration, with the following characteristics:
> 
> - Provides retrieval mechanisms which can differentiate between
>   configuration data and non-configuration data
> - Is extensible enough so that vendors will provide access to all
>   configuration data on the device using a single protocol
> - Has a programmatic interface (avoids screen scraping and
>   formatting-related changes between releases)
> - Uses a textual data representation, that can be easily manipulated
>   using non-specialized text manipulation tools.
> - Supports integration with existing user authentication methods
> - Supports integration with existing configuration database systems
> - Supports network wide configuration transactions (with features such
>   as locking and rollback capability)
> - Is as transport-independent as possible
> - Provides support for asynchronous notifications.
> 
> The NETCONF protocol is using XML for data encoding purposes, because
> XML is a widely deployed standard which is supported by a large number
> of applications.
> 
> The NETCONF protocol should be independent of the data definition
> language and data models used to describe configuration and state
> data.
> 
> However, the authorization model used in the protocol is dependent on
> the data model. Although these issues must be fully addressed to
> develop standard data models, only a small part of this work will be
> initially addressed. This group will specify requirements for standard
> data models in order to fully support the NETCONF protocol, such as:
> 
> - identification of principals, such as user names or distinguished
> names
> - mechanism to distinguish configuration from non-configuration data
> - XML namespace conventions
> - XML usage guidelines
> 
> The initial work started in 2003 and has already been 
> completed and was
> restricted to following items:
> 
>   a) NETCONF Protocol Specification, which defines the operational
> model,
>      protocol operations, transaction model, data model requirements,
>      security requirements, and transport layer requirements.
>   b) NETCONF over SSH Specification: Implementation Mandatory,
>   c) NETCONF over BEEP Specification: Implementation Optional,
>   d) NETCONF over SOAP Specification: Implementation Optional.
> 
>   These documents define how the NETCONF protocol is used with each
>   transport protocol selected by the working group, and how it meets
>   the security and transport layer requirements of the 
> NETCONF Protocol
>   Specification.
> 
>   e) NETCONF Notification Specification, which defines mechanisms that
>      provide an asynchronous message notification delivery service for
>      the NETCONF protocol.  NETCONF Notification is an optional
>      capability built on top of the base NETCONF definition and
>      provides the capabilities and operations necessary to support
>      this service.
> 
>   The NETCONF notification specification has been finished 
> now as well.
> 
> In the current phase of the incremental development of NETCONF the
> workgroup will focus on following items:
> 
> 1. Fine-grain locking: The base NETCONF protocol only provides a lock
>    for the entire configuration datastore, which is not deemed to meet
>    important operational and security requirements. The 
> NETCONF working
>    group will produce a standards-track RFC specifying a mechanism for
>    fine-grain locking of the NETCONF configuration datastore.
> 
> 2. NETCONF monitoring: It is considered best practice for IETF working
>    groups to include management of their protocols within the scope of
>    the solution they are providing. The NETCONF working group will
>    produce a standards-track RFC with mechanisms allowing NETCONF
>    itself to be used to monitor some aspects of NETCONF operation.
> 
> 3. Schema advertisement: Currently the NETCONF protocol is able to
>    advertise which protocol features are supported on a particular
>    netconf-capable device. However, there is currently no way to
> discover
>    which XML Schema are supported on the device. The NETCONF working
>    group will produce a standards-track RFC with mechanisms 
> making this
>    discovery possible (this item may be merged with "NETCONF 
> monitoring"
>    into a single document).
> 
>    Note: The schema-advertisement material has been merged into the
>    NETCONF monitoring document based on WG consensus.
> 
> 4. NETCONF over TLS: Based on implementation experience there is a
>    need for a standards track document to define NETCONF over 
> TLS as an
>    optional transport for the NETCONF protocol.
> 
> 5. NETCONF default handling: NETCONF today does not define whether
>    default values should be returned by the server in replies
>    to requests for reading configuration and state data. Different
>    clients have different needs to receive or not to receive
>    default data. The NETCONF working group will produce a
>    standards-track RFC defining a mechanism that allows
>    NETCONF clients to control whether default data is returned
>    by the netconf server.
> 
> 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the specification 
> in RFC4741
>    is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
> implementations. 
>    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an 
> rfc4741bis
> with
>    following constraints:
> 
>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      - clarifications can be done
>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>      - The work can be started based on the discussion in 
> IETF #73 (see
>         http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf).
> 
>    Note: A technical errata has been posted on rfc4742. If the work on
>    rfc4741bis uncovers any additional fixes/clarifications that need
>    to be made to rfc4742, the WG may consider to also do a rfc4742bis
>    as part of this work-item.
> 
> The following items have been identified as important but are 
> currently
> not considered in scope for re-chartering and may be 
> candidates for work
> when there is community consensus to take them on:
> 
> - NETCONF Notification content
> - Access Control requirements
> - NETCONF access to SMI-based MIB data
> 
> 
> Goals and Milestones:
> Done   Working Group formed
> Done   Submit initial Netconf Protocol draft
> Done   Submit initial Netconf over (transport-TBD) draft
> Done   Begin Working Group Last Call for the Netconf Protocol draft
> Done   Begin Working Group Last Call for the Netconf over
> (transport-TBD)
>             draft
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf Protocol draft to the IESG
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over SOAP draft to the IESG
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over BEEP draft to the IESG
> Done   Submit final version of the Netconf over SSH draft to the IESG
> Done   Update charter
> Done   Submit first version of NETCONF Notifications document
> Done   Begin WGLC of NETCONF Notifications document
> Done   Submit final version of NETCONF Notifications document to IESG
>             for consideration as Proposed Standard
> Done   -00 draft for fine Grain Locking
> Done   -00 draft for NETCONF over TLS
> Done   -00 draft for NETCONF Monitoring
> Done   -00 draft for Schema Advertisement
> Done   Early Review of client authentication approach (for 
> NETCONF over
>             TLS) with the security community at IETF 71
> N.A.     WG Last Call on Schema Advertisement after IETF72
>             Schema Advertisement has been merged into Monitoring
> Done    WG Last Call on NETCONF over TLS after IETF72
> Done    Netconf over TLS to IESG for consideration as 
> Proposed Standards
> Dec 2008  WG Last Call on Fine Grain Locking after IETF73
> Dec 2008  Send Partial Locking to IESG for consideration as Proposed
> Standards
> Jan 2009   Initial WG draft for with-defaults capability
> Feb 2009   Initial WG draft for rfc4741bis
> Mar 2009   WG Last Call on NETCONF Monitoring after IETF73
> Apr 2009   WG Last Call on rfc4741bis
> Apr 2009   WG Last Call on with-defaults
> Jun 2009   rfc4741bis to IESG for considerations as Proposed Standard
> Jun 2009   with-defaults capability to IESG for considerations as
> Proposed Standard
> 
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From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Hi,
> > Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> >>>      - bug fixes are to be done
> >>>      - clarifications can be done
> >>>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> >> What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
> >> IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
> >> to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
> >> that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
> >> and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
> >> better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?
> > This particular case could be handled by incrementing the minor
> > version for the :validate capability so that the URI is:
> > urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1
> > This 1.1 version is backwards compatible, but an old client will not
> > understand that, so a server that wants to support both old and new
> > clients would advertise both versions:
> > urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.0
> >   urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1
> > 
> 
> There are lots of ways the protocol could get changed,
> such as adding new capabilities, without bumping
> the base capability.  What matters is whether the 1.0
> client continues to work even though it does
> not know about these new capabilities.

So is your opinion that the proposed charter text allows us to bump
the version of this (or other) capability?


/martin
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Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Hi,
> > Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> >>>      - bug fixes are to be done
> >>>      - clarifications can be done
> >>>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> >> What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
> >> IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
> >> to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
> >> that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
> >> and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
> >> better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?
> > This particular case could be handled by incrementing the minor
> > version for the :validate capability so that the URI is:
> > urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1
> > This 1.1 version is backwards compatible, but an old client will not
> > understand that, so a server that wants to support both old and new
> > clients would advertise both versions:
> > urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.0
> >   urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1
> > 
> 
> There are lots of ways the protocol could get changed,
> such as adding new capabilities, without bumping
> the base capability.  What matters is whether the 1.0
> client continues to work even though it does
> not know about these new capabilities.

So is your opinion that the proposed charter text allows us to bump
the version of this (or other) capability?


/martin
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>>>>>      - bug fixes are to be done
>>>>>      - clarifications can be done
>>>>>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>>>> What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
>>>> IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
>>>> to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
>>>> that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
>>>> and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
>>>> better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?
>>> This particular case could be handled by incrementing the minor
>>> version for the :validate capability so that the URI is:
>>> urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1
>>> This 1.1 version is backwards compatible, but an old client will not
>>> understand that, so a server that wants to support both old and new
>>> clients would advertise both versions:
>>> urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.0
>>>   urn:ietf:paramFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Dec 14 15:28:01 2008
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Cc: rbonica@juniper.net, netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>>>>>      - bug fixes are to be done
>>>>>      - clarifications can be done
>>>>>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>>>> What about the 'test-only' enumeration for test-option?
>>>> IMO, the WG needs some flexibility in the solution space
>>>> to deal with usability problems found.  It has been determined
>>>> that 'test-then-set' and <validate> are somewhat worthless,
>>>> and a 'test-only' mode for <edit-config> would have been much
>>>> better in the first place.  Is that a new feature or a bugfix?
>>> This particular case could be handled by incrementing the minor
>>> version for the :validate capability so that the URI is:
>>> urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1
>>> This 1.1 version is backwards compatible, but an old client will not
>>> understand that, so a server that wants to support both old and new
>>> clients would advertise both versions:
>>> urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.0
>>>   urn:ietfs:netconf:capability:validate:1.1
>>>
>> There are lots of ways the protocol could get changed,
>> such as adding new capabilities, without bumping
>> the base capability.  What matters is whether the 1.0
>> client continues to work even though it does
>> not know about these new capabilities.
> 
> So is your opinion that the proposed charter text allows us to bump
> the version of this (or other) capability?
> 
> 


I am not as thrilled with the "base + capabilities" model
as I used to be.

A new capability cannot change the contract of an old capability.
In theory anyways.  It didn't work out that way for :xpath,
but it could for other capabilities.

Perhaps people are unfamiliar with the "no options" logic:

A) If FOO is an optional feature, I cannot count on it being
    implemented on all the platforms I need to support.

B) Since FOO is optional and I cannot count on it, how important
    is the feature anyway?

C) If it's some minor knob that every platform can do without,
    then what is the value to me to spend any effort to implement
    the knob at all?

D) If it's some major feature, that I cannot do without, then
    I must invest in some workaround (hopefully) that all platforms
    can support.

E) If I have invest in a widely supported work-around, why should
    I also invest in implementing the optional way of doing the
    same thing (i.e., FOO).

 From this perspective, capabilities such as :url, :validate,
:rollback-on-error, :confirmed-commit, :xpath, :interleave,
or even :notifications do not seem so helpful.


> /martin
> 
> 
> 

Andy

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1
>>>
>> There are lots of ways the protocol could get changed,
>> such as adding new capabilities, without bumping
>> the base capability.  What matters is whether the 1.0
>> client continues to work even though it does
>> not know about these new capabilities.
> 
> So is your opinion that the proposed charter text allows us to bump
> the version of this (or other) capability?
> 
> 


I am not as thrilled with the "base + capabilities" model
as I used to be.

A new capability cannot change the contract of an old capability.
In theory anyways.  It didn't work out that way for :xpath,
but it could for other capabilities.

Perhaps people are unfamiliar with the "no options" logic:

A) If FOO is an optional feature, I cannot count on it being
    implemented on all the platforms I need to support.

B) Since FOO is optional and I cannot count on it, how important
    is the feature anyway?

C) If it's some minor knob that every platform can do without,
    then what is the value to me to spend any effort to implement
    the knob at all?

D) If it's some major feature, that I cannot do without, then
    I must invest in some workaround (hopefully) that all platforms
    can support.

E) If I have invest in a widely supported work-around, why should
    I also invest in implementing the optional way of doing the
    same thing (i.e., FOO).

 From this perspective, capabilities such as :url, :validate,
:rollback-on-error, :confirmed-commit, :xpath, :interleave,
or even :notifications do not seem so helpful.


> /martin
> 
> 
> 

Andy

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Dec 14 23:32:41 2008
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On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 03:27:48PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> Perhaps people are unfamiliar with the "no options" logic:

[...]

> From this perspective, capabilities such as :url, :validate,
> :rollback-on-error, :confirmed-commit, :xpath, :interleave,
> or even :notifications do not seem so helpful.

There is also the other extreme where everybody claims to implement a
complex standard but in reality only different subsets are supported.

While I agree with you that we should not create too many little
capabilities (understanding all the possible interactions alone is
becoming difficult), I believe a set of well defined caFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Dec 14 23:32:41 2008
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On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 03:27:48PM -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:

> Perhaps people are unfamiliar with the "no options" logic:

[...]

> From this perspective, capabilities such as :url, :validate,
> :rollback-on-error, :confirmed-commit, :xpath, :interleave,
> or even :notifications do not seem so helpful.

There is also the other extreme where everybody claims to implement a
complex standard but in reality only different subsets are supported.

While I agree with you that we should not create too many little
capabilities (understanding all the possible interactions alone is
becoming difficult), I believe a set of well defined capabilipabilities is
not a bad thing.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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ties is
not a bad thing.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] interoperability testing report
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Hi Juergen,

I am curious about the treatment of the hello (or the absence).
In Section 8.1 of the RFC we see 
"
When the NETCONF session is opened, each peer
   (both client and server) MUST send a <hello> element containing a
   list of that peer's capabilities.  Each peer MUST send at least the
   base NETCONF capability, "urn:ietf:params:netconf:base:1.0".
"
The <hello> is MUST requirement. What is not clear is what needs to be
done 
if the first message received is not a HELLO. Later in the section we
are told if
the <hello> is the wrong format to hang up. I seem to recall the
standard once said 
to hangup but maybe I am recollecting an earlier draft draft.
Perhaps we need to clarify the RFC in this regards ?

James.

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 2:33 AM
To: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [Netconf] interoperability testing report

Hi,

I am attaching a draft report of the interoperability tests we have done
at Jacobs University. We plan to continue this work and we are of course
interested to get more implementations so that we get a more complete
picture. If you want to help us, please get in touch with me.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] interoperability testing report
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Hi Juergen,

I am curious about the treatment of the hello (or the absence).
In Section 8.1 of the RFC we see 
"
When the NETCONF session is opened, each peer
   (both client and server) MUST send a <hello> element containing a
   list of that peer's capabilities.  Each peer MUST send at least the
   base NETCONF capability, "urn:ietf:params:netconf:base:1.0".
"
The <hello> is MUST requirement. What is not clear is what needs to be
done 
if the first message received is not a HELLO. Later in the section we
are told if
the <hello> is the wrong format to hang up. I seem to recall the
standard once said 
to hangup but maybe I am recollecting an earlier draft draft.
Perhaps we need to clarify the RFC in this regards ?

James.

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 2:33 AM
To: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [Netconf] interoperability testing report

Hi,

I am attaching a draft report of the interoperability tests we have done
at Jacobs University. We plan to continue this work and we are of course
interested to get more implementations so that we get a more complete
picture. If you want to help us, please get in touch with me.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 05:51:21PM +0800, James Balestriere (jbalestr) wrote:
 
> I am curious about the treatment of the hello (or the absence).
> In Section 8.1 of the RFC we see 
> "
> When the NETCONF session is opened, each peer
>    (both client and server) MUST send a <hello> element containing a
>    list of that peer's capabilities.  Each peer MUST send at least the
>    base NETCONF capability, "urn:ietf:params:netconf:base:1.0".
> "
> The <hello> is MUST requirement. What is not clear is what needs to be
> done if the first message received is not a HELLO.

This is just one instance of RFC 4741 not being totally clear how
errors are to be handled. Some people might say this is goodness since
a server can be lenient and deal with clients not sending a <hello>
message. Other people might claim that a client not sending <hello> is
a fatal error. Ideally, this would be worked out.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 05:51:21PM +0800, James Balestriere (jbalestr) wrote:
 
> I am curious about the treatment of the hello (or the absence).
> In Section 8.1 of the RFC we see 
> "
> When the NETCONF session is opened, each peer
>    (both client and server) MUST send a <hello> element containing a
>    list of that peer's capabilities.  Each peer MUST send at least the
>    base NETCONF capability, "urn:ietf:params:netconf:base:1.0".
> "
> The <hello> is MUST requirement. What is not clear is what needs to be
> done if the first message received is not a HELLO.

This is just one instance of RFC 4741 not being totally clear how
errors are to be handled. Some people might say this is goodness since
a server can be lenient and deal with clients not sending a <hello>
message. Other people might claim that a client not sending <hello> is
a fatal error. Ideally, this would be worked out.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 05:51:21PM +0800, James Balestriere (jbalestr) wrote:
>  
>> I am curious about the treatment of the hello (or the absence).
>> In Section 8.1 of the RFC we see 
>> "
>> When the NETCONF session is opened, each peer
>>    (both client and server) MUST send a <hello> element containing a
>>    list of that peer's capabilities.  Each peer MUST send at least the
>>    base NETCONF capability, "urn:ietf:params:netconf:base:1.0".
>> "
>> The <hello> is MUST requirement. What is not clear is what needs to be
>> done if the first message received is not a HELLO.
> 
> This is just one instance of RFC 4741 not being totally clear how
> errors are to be handled. Some people might say this is goodness since
> a server can be lenient and deal with clients not sending a <hello>
> message. Other people might claim that a client not sending <hello> is
> a fatal error. Ideally, this would be worked out.
> 

It is hard to interpret 8.1, para 3 in this way.
You really have to try hard.  However, the last
sentence could be changed:  s/both cases/all cases/

It was very clearly the intent of the WG that the <hello>
MUST be sent by both peers and both peers MUST From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec 15 04:04:02 2008
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 05:51:21PM +0800, James Balestriere (jbalestr) wrote:
>  
>> I am curious about the treatment of the hello (or the absence).
>> In Section 8.1 of the RFC we see 
>> "
>> When the NETCONF session is opened, each peer
>>    (both client and server) MUST send a <hello> element containing a
>>    list of that peer's capabilities.  Each peer MUST send at least the
>>    base NETCONF capability, "urn:ietf:params:netconf:base:1.0".
>> "
>> The <hello> is MUST requirement. What is not clear is what needs to be
>> done if the first message received is not a HELLO.
> 
> This is just one instance of RFC 4741 not being totally clear how
> errors are to be handled. Some people might say this is goodness since
> a server can be lenient and deal with clients not sending a <hello>
> message. Other people might claim that a client not sending <hello> is
> a fatal error. Ideally, this would be worked out.
> 

It is hard to interpret 8.1, para 3 in this way.
You really have to try hard.  However, the last
sentence could be changed:  s/both cases/all cases/

It was very clearly the intent of the WG that the <hello>
MUST be sent by both peers and both peersaccept the
others base capability.  If not, the transport session MUST
be terminated instead of proceeding with session setup.

Phil is the one always reminding us that we need to future-proof
our YANG modules, yet the whole point of the <hello> exchange
MUST requirement seems to be missed by the Juniper implementation.


> /js
> 

Andy

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 MUST accept the
others base capability.  If not, the transport session MUST
be terminated instead of proceeding with session setup.

Phil is the one always reminding us that we need to future-proof
our YANG modules, yet the whole point of the <hello> exchange
MUST requirement seems to be missed by the Juniper implementation.


> /js
> 

Andy

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec 15 09:30:28 2008
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Hello,
Is it possible to call get-config against a file, or even a remote file? In the XSD I see

   <xs:complexType name="getConfigSourceType">
     <xs:choice>
       <xs:element ref="config-name"/>
       <xs:element name="url" type="configURIType"/>
     </xs:choice>
   </xs:complexType>

In the text there is no mention about URLs neither in chapter 7.1 <get-config> nor in chapter 
8.8 URL capability.

I think if edit-config is allowed for URLs/local files then get-config should be as well.
Anyway this should be clarified by the 4741bis. Martin, Jurgen please add it to your list.

The same question is valid for lock/unlock (others?) as well.

Balazs
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Hello,
Is it possible to call get-config against a file, or even a remote file? In the XSD I see

   <xs:complexType name="getConfigSourceType">
     <xs:choice>
       <xs:element ref="config-name"/>
       <xs:element name="url" type="configURIType"/>
     </xs:choice>
   </xs:complexType>

In the text there is no mention about URLs neither in chapter 7.1 <get-config> nor in chapter 
8.8 URL capability.

I think if edit-config is allowed for URLs/local files then get-config should be as well.
Anyway this should be clarified by the 4741bis. Martin, Jurgen please add it to your list.

The same question is valid for lock/unlock (others?) as well.

Balazs
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Balazs Lengyel wrote:
> Hello,
> Is it possible to call get-config against a file, or even a remote file? 
> In the XSD I see
> 
>   <xs:complexType name="getConfigSourceType">
>     <xs:choice>
>       <xs:element ref="config-name"/>
>       <xs:element name="url" type="configURIType"/>
>     </xs:choice>
>   </xs:complexType>
> 
> In the text there is no mention about URLs neither in chapter 7.1 
> <get-config> nor in chapter 8.8 URL capability.
> 
> I think if edit-config is allowed for URLs/local files then get-config 
> should be as well.
> Anyway this should be clarified by the 4741bis. Martin, Jurgen please 
> add it to your list.
> 
> The same question is valid for lock/unlock (others?) as well.
> 

This issue was discussed at length when 4741 was being written,
and the WG consensus at that time was that the standard needed
to be very loose about URL-based databases, and the <startup>
as well.  Several people strongly objected to extending
the edit operation to URLs at that time.  It was ignored in
the document on purpose.  Only the operations that have
URL extensions in the XSD had WG consensus to be supported.

IMO, we should focus on the 3 standard databases,
but clarifications are always good.  Maybe new
capabilities are needed (instead of piling on :url!)


> Balazs

Andy

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Subject: Re: [Netconf] get-config on
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Balazs Lengyel wrote:
> Hello,
> Is it possible to call get-config against a file, or even a remote file? 
> In the XSD I see
> 
>   <xs:complexType name="getConfigSourceType">
>     <xs:choice>
>       <xs:element ref="config-name"/>
>       <xs:element name="url" type="configURIType"/>
>     </xs:choice>
>   </xs:complexType>
> 
> In the text there is no mention about URLs neither in chapter 7.1 
> <get-config> nor in chapter 8.8 URL capability.
> 
> I think if edit-config is allowed for URLs/local files then get-config 
> should be as well.
> Anyway this should be clarified by the 4741bis. Martin, Jurgen please 
> add it to your list.
> 
> The same question is valid for lock/unlock (others?) as well.
> 

This issue was discussed at length when 4741 was being written,
and the WG consensus at that time was that the standard needed
to be very loose about URL-based databases, and the <startup>
as well.  Several people strongly objected to extending
the edit operation to URLs at that time.  It was ignored in
the document on purpose.  Only the operations that have
URL extensions in the XSD had WG consensus to be supported.

IMO, we should focus on the 3 standard databases,
but clarifications are always good.  Maybe new
capabilities are needed (instead of piling on :url!)


> Balazs

Andy

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Yes, it is one thing to handle errors to an identified peer, but when
you consider
the weight of the MUST requirement, without the HELLO it is hard to
determine you 
have connected to a NETCONF peer, let alone a client or server peer,  in
the first place.
Then considering Andy's point where you haven't established an overlap
of capabilities,
What is a sensible reply to send when you don't know the capabilities
and supported
schemas of the peer ?

When you consider the defined handling of the SESSION-ID whose intent
seems to be to stop 
client-client and server-server peers accidentally establishing,
I think it is a small inference to say if the peer does not identify it
role or capabilities
it should be terminated.

James.

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:04 PM
To: James Balestriere (jbalestr); netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] interoperability testing report

Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 05:51:21PM +0800, James Balestriere (jbalestr)
wrote:
>  
>> I am curious about the treatment of the hello (or the absence).
>> In Section 8.1 of the RFC we see
>> "
>> When the NETCONF session is opened, each peer
>>    (both client and server) MUST send a <hello> element containing a
>>    list of that peer's capabilities.  Each peer MUST send at least
the
>>    base NETCONF capability, "urn:ietf:params:netconf:base:1.0".
>> "
>> The <hello> is MUST requirement. What is not clear is what needs to 
>> be done if the first message received is not a HELLO.
> 
> This is just one instance of RFC 4741 not being totally clear how 
> errors are to be handled. Some people might say this is goodness since

> a server can be lenient and deal with clients not sending a <hello> 
> message. Other people might claim that a client not sending <hello> is

> a fatal error. Ideally, this would be worked out.
> 

It is hard to interpret 8.1, para 3 in this way.
You really have to try hard.  However, the last sentence could be
changed:  s/both cases/all cases/

It was very clearly the intent of the WG that the <hello> MUST be sent
by both peers and both peers MUST accept the others base capability.  If
not, the transport session MUST be terminated instead of proceeding with
session setup.


Phil is the one always reminding us that we need to future-proof our
YANG modules, yet the whole point of the <hello> exchange MUST
requirement seems to be missed by the Juniper implementation.


> /js
> 

Andy

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Yes, it is one thing to handle errors to an identified peer, but when
you consider
the weight of the MUST requirement, without the HELLO it is hard to
determine you 
have connected to a NETCONF peer, let alone a client or server peer,  in
the first place.
Then considering Andy's point where you haven't established an overlap
of capabilities,
What is a sensible reply to send when you don't know the capabilities
and supported
schemas of the peer ?

When you consider the defined handling of the SESSION-ID whose intent
seems to be to stop 
client-client and server-server peers accidentally establishing,
I think it is a small inference to say if the peer does not identify it
role or capabilities
it should be terminated.

James.

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:04 PM
To: James Balestriere (jbalestr); netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] interoperability testing report

Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 05:51:21PM +0800, James Balestriere (jbalestr)
wrote:
>  
>> I am curious about the treatment of the hello (or the absence).
>> In Section 8.1 of the RFC we see
>> "
>> When the NETCONF session is opened, each peer
>>    (both client and server) MUST send a <hello> element containing a
>>    list of that peer's capabilities.  Each peer MUST send at least
the
>>    base NETCONF capability, "urn:ietf:params:netconf:base:1.0".
>> "
>> The <hello> is MUST requirement. What is not clear is what needs to 
>> be done if the first message received is not a HELLO.
> 
> This is just one instance of RFC 4741 not being totally clear how 
> errors are to be handled. Some people might say this is goodness since

> a server can be lenient and deal with clients not sending a <hello> 
> message. Other people might claim that a client not sending <hello> is

> a fatal error. Ideally, this would be worked out.
> 

It is hard to interpret 8.1, para 3 in this way.
You really have to try hard.  However, the last sentence could be
changed:  s/both cases/all cases/

It was very clearly the intent of the WG that the <hello> MUST be sent
by both peers and both peers MUST accept the others base capability.  If
not, the transport session MUST be terminated instead of proceeding with
session setup.


Phil is the one always reminding us that we need to future-proof our
YANG modules, yet the whole point of the <hello> exchange MUST
requirement seems to be missed by the Juniper implementation.


> /js
> 

Andy

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James Balestriere (jbalestr) wrote:
> Yes, it is one thing to handle errors to an identified peer, but when
> you consider
> the weight of the MUST requirement, without the HELLO it is hard to
> determine you 
> have connected to a NETCONF peer, let alone a client or server peer,  in
> the first place.
> Then considering Andy's point where you haven't established an overlap
> of capabilities,
> What is a sensible reply to send when you don't know the capabilities
> and supported
> schemas of the peer ?
> 
> When you consider the defined handling of the SESSION-ID whose intent
> seems to be to stop 
> client-client and server-server peers accidentally establishing,
> I think it is a small inference to say if the peer does not identify it
> role or capabilities
> it should be terminated.
> 

My main point was that it hard to change the protocol in
the future in non-backward compatible ways if the <hello>
check is skipped by the agent.  We want to force an
application to recognize that a down-rev protocol version
is needed for some agent (agent terminates session
will get its attention).  This is better than letting
the manager silently assume the agent supports the new version.

The base capability exchange needs lots of clarification
in 4741-bis.  Let's say there is a new base URI someday (2.0)?
Does each peer send all the versions they support, and
both peers figure out which is the newest version
they have in common?  Does the client sent the new URI, see if
it works, and if not, try again with the old one?
I don't think these protocol procedures are spelled out
in the current text.


> James.

Andy


> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com] 
> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:04 PM
> To: James Balestriere (jbalestr); netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] interoperability testing report
> 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 05:51:21PM +0800, James Balestriere (jbalestr)
> wrote:
>>  
>>> I am curious about the treatment of the hello (or the absence).
>>> In Section 8.1 of the RFC we see
>>> "
>>> When the NETCONF session is opened, each peer
>>>    (both client and server) MUST send a <hello> element containing a
>>>    list of that peer's capabilities.  Each peer MUST send at least
> the
>>>    base NETCONF capability, "urn:ietf:params:netconf:base:1.0".
>>> "
>>> The <hello> is MUST requirement. What is not clear is what needs to 
>>> be done if the first message received is not a HELLO.
>> This is just one instance of RFC 4741 not being totally clear how 
>> errors are to be handled. Some people might say this is goodness since
> 
>> a server can be lenient and deal with clients not sending a <hello> 
>> message. Other people might claim that a client not sending <hello> is
> 
>> a fatal error. Ideally, this would be worked out.
>>
> 
> It is hard to interpret 8.1, para 3 in this way.
> You really have to try hard.  However, the last sentence could be
> changed:  s/both cases/all cases/
> 
> It was very clearly the intent of the WG that the <hello> MUST be sent
> by both peers and both peers MUST accept the others base capability.  If
> not, the transport session MUST be terminated instead of proceeding with
> session setup.
> 
> 
> Phil is the one always reminding us that we need to future-proof our
> YANG modules, yet the whole point of the <hello> exchange MUST
> requirement seems to be missed by the Juniper implementation.
> 
> 
>> /js
>>
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] interoperability testing report
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James Balestriere (jbalestr) wrote:
> Yes, it is one thing to handle errors to an identified peer, but when
> you consider
> the weight of the MUST requirement, without the HELLO it is hard to
> determine you 
> have connected to a NETCONF peer, let alone a client or server peer,  in
> the first place.
> Then considering Andy's point where you haven't established an overlap
> of capabilities,
> What is a sensible reply to send when you don't know the capabilities
> and supported
> schemas of the peer ?
> 
> When you consider the defined handling of the SESSION-ID whose intent
> seems to be to stop 
> client-client and server-server peers accidentally establishing,
> I think it is a small inference to say if the peer does not identify it
> role or capabilities
> it should be terminated.
> 

My main point was that it hard to change the protocol in
the future in non-backward compatible ways if the <hello>
check is skipped by the agent.  We want to force an
application to recognize that a down-rev protocol version
is needed for some agent (agent terminates session
will get its attention).  This is better than letting
the manager silently assume the agent supports the new version.

The base capability exchange needs lots of clarification
in 4741-bis.  Let's say there is a new base URI someday (2.0)?
Does each peer send all the versions they support, and
both peers figure out which is the newest version
they have in common?  Does the client sent the new URI, see if
it works, and if not, try again with the old one?
I don't think these protocol procedures are spelled out
in the current text.


> James.

Andy


> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com] 
> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:04 PM
> To: James Balestriere (jbalestr); netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] interoperability testing report
> 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 05:51:21PM +0800, James Balestriere (jbalestr)
> wrote:
>>  
>>> I am curious about the treatment of the hello (or the absence).
>>> In Section 8.1 of the RFC we see
>>> "
>>> When the NETCONF session is opened, each peer
>>>    (both client and server) MUST send a <hello> element containing a
>>>    list of that peer's capabilities.  Each peer MUST send at least
> the
>>>    base NETCONF capability, "urn:ietf:params:netconf:base:1.0".
>>> "
>>> The <hello> is MUST requirement. What is not clear is what needs to 
>>> be done if the first message received is not a HELLO.
>> This is just one instance of RFC 4741 not being totally clear how 
>> errors are to be handled. Some people might say this is goodness since
> 
>> a server can be lenient and deal with clients not sending a <hello> 
>> message. Other people might claim that a client not sending <hello> is
> 
>> a fatal error. Ideally, this would be worked out.
>>
> 
> It is hard to interpret 8.1, para 3 in this way.
> You really have to try hard.  However, the last sentence could be
> changed:  s/both cases/all cases/
> 
> It was very clearly the intent of the WG that the <hello> MUST be sent
> by both peers and both peers MUST accept the others base capability.  If
> not, the transport session MUST be terminated instead of proceeding with
> session setup.
> 
> 
> Phil is the one always reminding us that we need to future-proof our
> YANG modules, yet the whole point of the <hello> exchange MUST
> requirement seems to be missed by the Juniper implementation.
> 
> 
>> /js
>>
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
> 


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So where did we get to with the ]]>]]>  =

Are we still looking to deprecate its usage ?

James.

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Simon Leinen
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:45 AM
To: Jan Lindblad
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name

Jan Lindblad writes:
>[quoting Andy]
>>[quoting Jan]
>>> And someone responds with:
>>> "cool-hacker</name><privileges>top-secret</privileges></
user> <user><name>someone-else"
>>> The good news is that it's very easy to fix this. [...]

>> great example...
>> =

>> Isn't part of the responsibility on the manager?

> I don't think so. The server will not be able to tell whether the =

> above request is a legitimate creation of two users or a result of a =

> na=EFve client being tricked.

I think that the "manager" Andy is talking about is the piece of software g=
enerating NETCONF requests from user input, the same thing that you call th=
e "client" =


So the two of you seem to be in violent agreement.

For the record, I agree that this problem must be solved by educating progr=
ammers on the NETCONF client (manager) side to sanitize user input, and to =
provide them with the appropriate tools - viz. modern development toolkits =
such as Rails making it increasingly difficult to write programs vulnerable=
 to SQL injection and similar attacks.

We shouldn't try to solve this by making the protocol more complex, or by d=
epending on a fine-grained authorization scheme nobody will use (Andy alrea=
dy mentioned the SNMP VACM).
--
Simon.
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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So where did we get to with the ]]>]]>  =

Are we still looking to deprecate its usage ?

James.

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Simon Leinen
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:45 AM
To: Jan Lindblad
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name

Jan Lindblad writes:
>[quoting Andy]
>>[quoting Jan]
>>> And someone responds with:
>>> "cool-hacker</name><privileges>top-secret</privileges></
user> <user><name>someone-else"
>>> The good news is that it's very easy to fix this. [...]

>> great example...
>> =

>> Isn't part of the responsibility on the manager?

> I don't think so. The server will not be able to tell whether the =

> above request is a legitimate creation of two users or a result of a =

> na=EFve client being tricked.

I think that the "manager" Andy is talking about is the piece of software g=
enerating NETCONF requests from user input, the same thing that you call th=
e "client" =


So the two of you seem to be in violent agreement.

For the record, I agree that this problem must be solved by educating progr=
ammers on the NETCONF client (manager) side to sanitize user input, and to =
provide them with the appropriate tools - viz. modern development toolkits =
such as Rails making it increasingly difficult to write programs vulnerable=
 to SQL injection and similar attacks.

We shouldn't try to solve this by making the protocol more complex, or by d=
epending on a fine-grained authorization scheme nobody will use (Andy alrea=
dy mentioned the SNMP VACM).
--
Simon.
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec 15 17:06:41 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
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James Balestriere (jbalestr) wrote:
> So where did we get to with the ]]>]]>  =

> Are we still looking to deprecate its usage ?
> =


Why are we doing that?
I am opposed to changing the SSH transport.
I do not see any reason to do so.
A note to developers in the 4741-bis about
using caution, generating proper character entities, etc.
should be sufficient.


> James.

Andy

> =

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Simon Leinen
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:45 AM
> To: Jan Lindblad
> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag naFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec 15 17:06:41 2008
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James Balestriere (jbalestr) wrote:
> So where did we get to with the ]]>]]>  =

> Are we still looking to deprecate its usage ?
> =


Why are we doing that?
I am opposed to changing the SSH transport.
I do not see any reason to do so.
A note to developers in the 4741-bis about
using caution, generating proper character entities, etc.
should be sufficient.


> James.

Andy

> =

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Simon Leinen
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:45 AM
> To: Jan Lindblad
> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] handling invalid XML tag name
> =me
> =

> Jan Lindblad writes:
>> [quoting Andy]
>>> [quoting Jan]
>>>> And someone responds with:
>>>> "cool-hacker</name><privileges>top-secret</privileges></
> user> <user><name>someone-else"
>>>> The good news is that it's very easy to fix this. [...]
> =

>>> great example...
>>>
>>> Isn't part of the responsibility on the manager?
> =

>> I don't think so. The server will not be able to tell whether the =

>> above request is a legitimate creation of two users or a result of a =

>> na=EFve client being tricked.
> =

> I think that the "manager" Andy is talking about is the piece of software=
 generating NETCONF requests from user input, the same thing that you call =
the "client" =

> =

> So the two of you seem to be in violent agreement.
> =

> For the record, I agree that this problem must be solved by educating pro=
grammers on the NETCONF client (manager) side to sanitize user input, and t=
o provide them with the appropriate tools - viz. modern development toolkit=
s such as Rails making it increasingly difficult to write programs vulnerab=
le to SQL injection and similar attacks.
> =

> We shouldn't try to solve this by making the protocol more complex, or by=
 depending on a fine-grained authorization scheme nobody will use (Andy alr=
eady mentioned the SNMP VACM).
> --
> Simon.
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> =

> =

> =



_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf




> Jan Lindblad writes:
>> [quoting Andy]
>>> [quoting Jan]
>>>> And someone responds with:
>>>> "cool-hacker</name><privileges>top-secret</privileges></
> user> <user><name>someone-else"
>>>> The good news is that it's very easy to fix this. [...]
> =

>>> great example...
>>>
>>> Isn't part of the responsibility on the manager?
> =

>> I don't think so. The server will not be able to tell whether the =

>> above request is a legitimate creation of two users or a result of a =

>> na=EFve client being tricked.
> =

> I think that the "manager" Andy is talking about is the piece of software=
 generating NETCONF requests from user input, the same thing that you call =
the "client" =

> =

> So the two of you seem to be in violent agreement.
> =

> For the record, I agree that this problem must be solved by educating pro=
grammers on the NETCONF client (manager) side to sanitize user input, and t=
o provide them with the appropriate tools - viz. modern development toolkit=
s such as Rails making it increasingly difficult to write programs vulnerab=
le to SQL injection and similar attacks.
> =

> We shouldn't try to solve this by making the protocol more complex, or by=
 depending on a fine-grained authorization scheme nobody will use (Andy alr=
eady mentioned the SNMP VACM).
> --
> Simon.
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> =

> =

> =



_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec 16 01:20:11 2008
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Cc: netconf@ietf.org, rbonica@juniper.net
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Hi,

I have a few objections regarding this text. It may mislead unfamiliar readers.

Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Dear ADs (and WG),
> 
> The NETCONF Working Group is chartered to produce a protocol suitable
> for network configuration, with the following characteristics:
> 
> - Supports integration with existing user authentication methods

How? Leaving authentication for the underlying transport protocol is a support? It rather means
"We don't care how authentication is performed", however "NETCONF connection must be authenticated".

> - Supports integration with existing configuration database systems

How? Which existing databases? Could you give the names? There is no one word about it.

> - Supports network wide configuration transactions (with features such
>   as locking and rollback capability)

How? Telling "we give you possibility to advertise rollback-on-error
capability but it's your problem to implement underlying transaction mechanism" is a support?
Why NETCONF boast about locking but From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec 16 01:20:11 2008
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:17:27 +0100
From: Tomasz Mikolajczyk <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>
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To: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <mehmet.ersue@nsn.com>
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Cc: netconf@ietf.org, rbonica@juniper.net
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Hi,

I have a few objections regarding this text. It may mislead unfamiliar readers.

Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Dear ADs (and WG),
> 
> The NETCONF Working Group is chartered to produce a protocol suitable
> for network configuration, with the following characteristics:
> 
> - Supports integration with existing user authentication methods

How? Leaving authentication for the underlying transport protocol is a support? It rather means
"We don't care how authentication is performed", however "NETCONF connection must be authenticated".

> - Supports integration with existing configuration database systems

How? Which existing databases? Could you give the names? There is no one word about it.

> - Supports network wide configuration transactions (with features such
>   as locking and rollback capability)

How? Telling "we give you possibility to advertise rollback-on-error
capability but it's your problem to implement underlying transaction mechanism" is a support?
Why NETCONF boast about lockindoesn't say anything about isolation or about the whole ACID properties?
Maybe because isolation is the underlying transaction implementation matter. But the same as locking/unlocking.
I omit fact that specified unlock operation is illogical (it was described in many my posts in the past).

IMO, defining a custom capability with the operations like:
 - open-transaction-on-configuration
 - commit-configuration
 - rollback-configuration

would be much clearer and is the same level of "support" for transactions like the existing one. Moreover, when you are able to
call this operations using other protocol managers (for instance CLI) why you need NETCONF? Where is this
support for transactions? I don't agree NETCONF supports them. Too big words.

> In the current phase of the incremental development of NETCONF the
> workgroup will focus on following items:
> 
> 1. Fine-grain locking: The base NETCONF protocol only provides a lock
>    for the entire configuration datastore, which is not deemed to meet
>    important operational and security requirements. The NETCONF working
>    group will produce a standards-track RFC specifying a mechanism for
>    fine-grain locking of the NETCONF configuration datastore.

IMO, First of all the existing unlock should be corrected before new features are introduced.

> 
> 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the specification in RFC4741
>    is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
> implementations. 
>    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an rfc4741bis
> with
>    following constraints:
> 
>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      - clarifications can be done
>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>      - The work can be started based on the discussion in IETF #73 (see
>         http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf).
> 

What about default value of the <test-option>. IMO, the default one should be "set". I explained it in my posts.
Martin said that's not a bug. The question is if a mistake is a bug or not.

Regards,
Tomasz


The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s).
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_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


g but doesn't say anything about isolation or about the whole ACID properties?
Maybe because isolation is the underlying transaction implementation matter. But the same as locking/unlocking.
I omit fact that specified unlock operation is illogical (it was described in many my posts in the past).

IMO, defining a custom capability with the operations like:
 - open-transaction-on-configuration
 - commit-configuration
 - rollback-configuration

would be much clearer and is the same level of "support" for transactions like the existing one. Moreover, when you are able to
call this operations using other protocol managers (for instance CLI) why you need NETCONF? Where is this
support for transactions? I don't agree NETCONF supports them. Too big words.

> In the current phase of the incremental development of NETCONF the
> workgroup will focus on following items:
> 
> 1. Fine-grain locking: The base NETCONF protocol only provides a lock
>    for the entire configuration datastore, which is not deemed to meet
>    important operational and security requirements. The NETCONF working
>    group will produce a standards-track RFC specifying a mechanism for
>    fine-grain locking of the NETCONF configuration datastore.

IMO, First of all the existing unlock should be corrected before new features are introduced.

> 
> 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the specification in RFC4741
>    is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
> implementations. 
>    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an rfc4741bis
> with
>    following constraints:
> 
>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      - clarifications can be done
>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>      - The work can be started based on the discussion in IETF #73 (see
>         http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf).
> 

What about default value of the <test-option>. IMO, the default one should be "set". I explained it in my posts.
Martin said that's not a bug. The question is if a mistake is a bug or not.

Regards,
Tomasz


The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s).
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Thank You.
_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Tomasz, can you try to get rid of your email trailer.
It says that your posting is CONFIDENTIAL. AS you MUST/SHOULD know from =
the
NOTE WELL, there is NOTHING CONFIDENTIAL on any IETF mailing list.

W.r.t. to your comments:

- most of it is about already completed WG work items. We do NOT intend =
to
  change any charter text in that space.
- the piece that is about the rfc4741bis, your topic is one that can be =
discussed
  as part of the WG deliberations on the topic. We do not have to =
explicitly list
  all items that can/will be discussed in the WG.

So I see no objections that we need to take into account.

Bert
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Tomasz Mikolajczyk=20
  To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)=20
  Cc: netconf@ietf.org ; rbonica@juniper.net=20
  Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:17 AM
  Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change


  Hi,

  I have a few objections regarding this text. It may mislead unfamiliar =
readers.

  Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
  > Dear ADs (and WG),
  >=20
  > The NETCONF Working Group is chartered to produce a protocol =
suitable
  > for network configuration, with the following characteristics:
  >=20
  > - Supports integration with existing user authentication methods

  How? Leaving authentication for the underlying transport protocol is a =
support? It rather means
  "We don't care how authentication is performed", however "NETCONF =
connection must be authenticated".

  > - Supports integration with existing configuration database systems

  How? Which existing databases? Could you give the names? There is no =
one word about it.

  > - Supports network wide configuration transactions (with features =
such
  >   as locking and rollback capability)

  How? Telling "we give you possibility to advertise rollback-on-error
  capability but it's your problem to implement underlying transaction =
mechanism" is a support?
  Why NETCONF boast about locking but doesn't say anything about =
isolation or about the whole ACID properties?
  Maybe because isolation is the underlying transaction implementation =
matter. But the same as locking/unlocking.
  I omit fact that specified unlock operation is illogical (it was =
described in many my posts in the past).

  IMO, defining a custom capability with the operations like:
   - open-transaction-on-configuration
   - commit-configuration
   - rollback-configuration

  would be much clearer and is the same level of "support" for =
transactions like the existing one. Moreover, when you are able to
  call this operations using other protocol managers (for instance CLI) =
why you need NETCONF? Where is this
  support for transactions? I don't agree NETCONF supports them. Too big =
words.

  > In the current phase of the incremental development of NETCONF the
  > workgroup will focus on following items:
  >=20
  > 1. Fine-grain locking: The base NETCONF protocol only provides a =
lock
  >    for the entire configuration datastore, which is not deemed to =
meet
  >    important operational and security requirements. The NETCONF =
working
  >    group will produce a standards-track RFC specifying a mechanism =
for
  >    fine-grain locking of the NETCONF configuration datastore.

  IMO, First of all the existing unlock should be corrected before new =
features are introduced.

  >=20
  > 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the specification in =
RFC4741
  >    is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
  > implementations.=20
  >    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an =
rfc4741bis
  > with
  >    following constraints:
  >=20
  >      - bug fixes are to be done
  >      - clarifications can be done
  >      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
  >      - The work can be started based on the discussion in IETF #73 =
(see
  >         http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf).
  >=20

  What about default value of the <test-option>. IMO, the default one =
should be "set". I explained it in my posts.
  Martin said that's not a bug. The question is if a mistake is a bug or =
not.

  Regards,
  Tomasz


  The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is =
confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended =
recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, =
disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If =
you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by =
return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer =
system(s).
  Please direct any additional queries to: communications@s3group.com.
  Thank You.
  _______________________________________________
  Netconf mailing list
  Netconf@ietf.org
  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Tomasz, can you try to get rid of your email=20
trailer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It says that your posting is CONFIDENTIAL. AS you =
MUST/SHOULD=20
know from the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>NOTE WELL, there is NOTHING CONFIDENTIAL on any IETF =
mailing=20
list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>W.r.t. to your comments:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- most of it is about already completed WG work =
items. We do=20
NOT intend to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; change any charter text in that =
space.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- the piece that is about the rfc4741bis, your topic =
is one=20
that can be discussed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; as part of the WG deliberations on the topic. =
We do not=20
have to explicitly list</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; all items that can/will be discussed in the=20
WG.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So I see no objections that we need to take into=20
account.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dtomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com">Tomasz Mikolajczyk</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dmehmet.ersue@nsn.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:mehmet.ersue@nsn.com">Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - =
DE/Munich)</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =

  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Drbonica@juniper.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net">rbonica@juniper.net</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 16, =
2008 10:17=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Netconf] Request =
for=20
  charter change</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Hi,<BR><BR>I have a few objections regarding this text. =
It may=20
  mislead unfamiliar readers.<BR><BR>Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)=20
  wrote:<BR>&gt; Dear ADs (and WG),<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The NETCONF Working =
Group=20
  is chartered to produce a protocol suitable<BR>&gt; for network =
configuration,=20
  with the following characteristics:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; - Supports =
integration=20
  with existing user authentication methods<BR><BR>How? Leaving =
authentication=20
  for the underlying transport protocol is a support? It rather =
means<BR>"We=20
  don't care how authentication is performed", however "NETCONF =
connection must=20
  be authenticated".<BR><BR>&gt; - Supports integration with existing=20
  configuration database systems<BR><BR>How? Which existing databases? =
Could you=20
  give the names? There is no one word about it.<BR><BR>&gt; - Supports =
network=20
  wide configuration transactions (with features =
such<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; as=20
  locking and rollback capability)<BR><BR>How? Telling "we give you =
possibility=20
  to advertise rollback-on-error<BR>capability but it's your problem to=20
  implement underlying transaction mechanism" is a support?<BR>Why =
NETCONF boast=20
  about locking but doesn't say anything about isolation or about the =
whole ACID=20
  properties?<BR>Maybe because isolation is the underlying transaction=20
  implementation matter. But the same as locking/unlocking.<BR>I omit =
fact that=20
  specified unlock operation is illogical (it was described in many my =
posts in=20
  the past).<BR><BR>IMO, defining a custom capability with the =
operations=20
  like:<BR>&nbsp;- open-transaction-on-configuration<BR>&nbsp;-=20
  commit-configuration<BR>&nbsp;- rollback-configuration<BR><BR>would be =
much=20
  clearer and is the same level of "support" for transactions like the =
existing=20
  one. Moreover, when you are able to<BR>call this operations using =
other=20
  protocol managers (for instance CLI) why you need NETCONF? Where is=20
  this<BR>support for transactions? I don't agree NETCONF supports them. =
Too big=20
  words.<BR><BR>&gt; In the current phase of the incremental development =
of=20
  NETCONF the<BR>&gt; workgroup will focus on following items:<BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt;=20
  1. Fine-grain locking: The base NETCONF protocol only provides a=20
  lock<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for the entire configuration datastore, =
which=20
  is not deemed to meet<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; important operational =
and=20
  security requirements. The NETCONF working<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
group=20
  will produce a standards-track RFC specifying a mechanism=20
  for<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; fine-grain locking of the NETCONF =
configuration=20
  datastore.<BR><BR>IMO, First of all the existing unlock should be =
corrected=20
  before new features are introduced.<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 6. NETCONF=20
  implementations have shown that the specification in=20
  RFC4741<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is not 100% clear and has lead to =
different=20
  interpretations and<BR>&gt; implementations. =
<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Also=20
  some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an =
rfc4741bis<BR>&gt;=20
  with<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; following constraints:<BR>&gt;=20
  <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - bug fixes are to be=20
  done<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - clarifications can be=20
  done<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - no extensions (i.e. we =
are not=20
  doing a NETCONF V2)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - The work =
can be=20
  started based on the discussion in IETF #73=20
  (see<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf">http:=
//www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf</A>).<BR>&gt;=20
  <BR><BR>What about default value of the &lt;test-option&gt;. IMO, the =
default=20
  one should be "set". I explained it in my posts.<BR>Martin said that's =
not a=20
  bug. The question is if a mistake is a bug or=20
  not.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Tomasz<BR><BR><BR>The information contained in =
this=20
  e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely =
for the=20
  attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended =
recipient,=20
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To: "Tomasz Mikolajczyk" <tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com>,
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Tomasz, can you try to get rid of your email trailer.
It says that your posting is CONFIDENTIAL. AS you MUST/SHOULD know from =
the
NOTE WELL, there is NOTHING CONFIDENTIAL on any IETF mailing list.

W.r.t. to your comments:

- most of it is about already completed WG work items. We do NOT intend =
to
  change any charter text in that space.
- the piece that is about the rfc4741bis, your topic is one that can be =
discussed
  as part of the WG deliberations on the topic. We do not have to =
explicitly list
  all items that can/will be discussed in the WG.

So I see no objections that we need to take into account.

Bert
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Tomasz Mikolajczyk=20
  To: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)=20
  Cc: netconf@ietf.org ; rbonica@juniper.net=20
  Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:17 AM
  Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change


  Hi,

  I have a few objections regarding this text. It may mislead unfamiliar =
readers.

  Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
  > Dear ADs (and WG),
  >=20
  > The NETCONF Working Group is chartered to produce a protocol =
suitable
  > for network configuration, with the following characteristics:
  >=20
  > - Supports integration with existing user authentication methods

  How? Leaving authentication for the underlying transport protocol is a =
support? It rather means
  "We don't care how authentication is performed", however "NETCONF =
connection must be authenticated".

  > - Supports integration with existing configuration database systems

  How? Which existing databases? Could you give the names? There is no =
one word about it.

  > - Supports network wide configuration transactions (with features =
such
  >   as locking and rollback capability)

  How? Telling "we give you possibility to advertise rollback-on-error
  capability but it's your problem to implement underlying transaction =
mechanism" is a support?
  Why NETCONF boast about locking but doesn't say anything about =
isolation or about the whole ACID properties?
  Maybe because isolation is the underlying transaction implementation =
matter. But the same as locking/unlocking.
  I omit fact that specified unlock operation is illogical (it was =
described in many my posts in the past).

  IMO, defining a custom capability with the operations like:
   - open-transaction-on-configuration
   - commit-configuration
   - rollback-configuration

  would be much clearer and is the same level of "support" for =
transactions like the existing one. Moreover, when you are able to
  call this operations using other protocol managers (for instance CLI) =
why you need NETCONF? Where is this
  support for transactions? I don't agree NETCONF supports them. Too big =
words.

  > In the current phase of the incremental development of NETCONF the
  > workgroup will focus on following items:
  >=20
  > 1. Fine-grain locking: The base NETCONF protocol only provides a =
lock
  >    for the entire configuration datastore, which is not deemed to =
meet
  >    important operational and security requirements. The NETCONF =
working
  >    group will produce a standards-track RFC specifying a mechanism =
for
  >    fine-grain locking of the NETCONF configuration datastore.

  IMO, First of all the existing unlock should be corrected before new =
features are introduced.

  >=20
  > 6. NETCONF implementations have shown that the specification in =
RFC4741
  >    is not 100% clear and has lead to different interpretations and
  > implementations.=20
  >    Also some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an =
rfc4741bis
  > with
  >    following constraints:
  >=20
  >      - bug fixes are to be done
  >      - clarifications can be done
  >      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
  >      - The work can be started based on the discussion in IETF #73 =
(see
  >         http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf).
  >=20

  What about default value of the <test-option>. IMO, the default one =
should be "set". I explained it in my posts.
  Martin said that's not a bug. The question is if a mistake is a bug or =
not.

  Regards,
  Tomasz


  The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is =
confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended =
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you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by =
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  Please direct any additional queries to: communications@s3group.com.
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  _______________________________________________
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Tomasz, can you try to get rid of your email=20
trailer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It says that your posting is CONFIDENTIAL. AS you =
MUST/SHOULD=20
know from the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>NOTE WELL, there is NOTHING CONFIDENTIAL on any IETF =
mailing=20
list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>W.r.t. to your comments:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- most of it is about already completed WG work =
items. We do=20
NOT intend to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; change any charter text in that =
space.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- the piece that is about the rfc4741bis, your topic =
is one=20
that can be discussed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; as part of the WG deliberations on the topic. =
We do not=20
have to explicitly list</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; all items that can/will be discussed in the=20
WG.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So I see no objections that we need to take into=20
account.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dtomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:tomasz.mikolajczyk@s3group.com">Tomasz Mikolajczyk</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dmehmet.ersue@nsn.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:mehmet.ersue@nsn.com">Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - =
DE/Munich)</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =

  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Drbonica@juniper.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net">rbonica@juniper.net</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 16, =
2008 10:17=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Netconf] Request =
for=20
  charter change</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Hi,<BR><BR>I have a few objections regarding this text. =
It may=20
  mislead unfamiliar readers.<BR><BR>Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)=20
  wrote:<BR>&gt; Dear ADs (and WG),<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The NETCONF Working =
Group=20
  is chartered to produce a protocol suitable<BR>&gt; for network =
configuration,=20
  with the following characteristics:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; - Supports =
integration=20
  with existing user authentication methods<BR><BR>How? Leaving =
authentication=20
  for the underlying transport protocol is a support? It rather =
means<BR>"We=20
  don't care how authentication is performed", however "NETCONF =
connection must=20
  be authenticated".<BR><BR>&gt; - Supports integration with existing=20
  configuration database systems<BR><BR>How? Which existing databases? =
Could you=20
  give the names? There is no one word about it.<BR><BR>&gt; - Supports =
network=20
  wide configuration transactions (with features =
such<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; as=20
  locking and rollback capability)<BR><BR>How? Telling "we give you =
possibility=20
  to advertise rollback-on-error<BR>capability but it's your problem to=20
  implement underlying transaction mechanism" is a support?<BR>Why =
NETCONF boast=20
  about locking but doesn't say anything about isolation or about the =
whole ACID=20
  properties?<BR>Maybe because isolation is the underlying transaction=20
  implementation matter. But the same as locking/unlocking.<BR>I omit =
fact that=20
  specified unlock operation is illogical (it was described in many my =
posts in=20
  the past).<BR><BR>IMO, defining a custom capability with the =
operations=20
  like:<BR>&nbsp;- open-transaction-on-configuration<BR>&nbsp;-=20
  commit-configuration<BR>&nbsp;- rollback-configuration<BR><BR>would be =
much=20
  clearer and is the same level of "support" for transactions like the =
existing=20
  one. Moreover, when you are able to<BR>call this operations using =
other=20
  protocol managers (for instance CLI) why you need NETCONF? Where is=20
  this<BR>support for transactions? I don't agree NETCONF supports them. =
Too big=20
  words.<BR><BR>&gt; In the current phase of the incremental development =
of=20
  NETCONF the<BR>&gt; workgroup will focus on following items:<BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt;=20
  1. Fine-grain locking: The base NETCONF protocol only provides a=20
  lock<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for the entire configuration datastore, =
which=20
  is not deemed to meet<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; important operational =
and=20
  security requirements. The NETCONF working<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
group=20
  will produce a standards-track RFC specifying a mechanism=20
  for<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; fine-grain locking of the NETCONF =
configuration=20
  datastore.<BR><BR>IMO, First of all the existing unlock should be =
corrected=20
  before new features are introduced.<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 6. NETCONF=20
  implementations have shown that the specification in=20
  RFC4741<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is not 100% clear and has lead to =
different=20
  interpretations and<BR>&gt; implementations. =
<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Also=20
  some errors have been uncovered. So the WG will do an =
rfc4741bis<BR>&gt;=20
  with<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; following constraints:<BR>&gt;=20
  <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - bug fixes are to be=20
  done<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - clarifications can be=20
  done<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - no extensions (i.e. we =
are not=20
  doing a NETCONF V2)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - The work =
can be=20
  started based on the discussion in IETF #73=20
  (see<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf">http:=
//www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/netconf-3.pdf</A>).<BR>&gt;=20
  <BR><BR>What about default value of the &lt;test-option&gt;. IMO, the =
default=20
  one should be "set". I explained it in my posts.<BR>Martin said that's =
not a=20
  bug. The question is if a mistake is a bug or=20
  not.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Tomasz<BR><BR><BR>The information contained in =
this=20
  e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely =
for the=20
  attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended =
recipient,=20
  you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or =
any part=20
  thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the =
sender=20
  by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your =
computer=20
  system(s).<BR>Please direct any additional queries to: <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:communications@s3group.com">communications@s3group.com</A>=
.<BR>Thank=20
  You.<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Netconf =
mailing=20
  list<BR><A href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</A><BR><A =

  =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
...
> What about default value of the <test-option>. IMO, the default one should be "set". I explained it in my posts.
> Martin said that's not a bug. The question is if a mistake is a bug or not.
> 
> Regards,
> Tomasz
> 

I think the test-option parameter needs a lot of work.
The most useful value (test-only) is not there.
Both values that are defined are unclear,
and the default is wrong.

The default that makes sense is target-dependent.
For candidate, the default needs to be 'set'.

For running, the only value can be 'test-then-set'.
The value 'set' should do the same as 'test-then-set'.
The manager cannot ask the agent to leave the running config
in an invalid state.  That's only for the candidate config.

I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
and that is what capabilities were designed to address.
(Not the creeping :xpath or :url design!)


Andy

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Tomasz Mikolajczyk wrote:
...
> What about default value of the <test-option>. IMO, the default one should be "set". I explained it in my posts.
> Martin said that's not a bug. The question is if a mistake is a bug or not.
> 
> Regards,
> Tomasz
> 

I think the test-option parameter needs a lot of work.
The most useful value (test-only) is not there.
Both values that are defined are unclear,
and the default is wrong.

The default that makes sense is target-dependent.
For candidate, the default needs to be 'set'.

For running, the only value can be 'test-then-set'.
The value 'set' should do the same as 'test-then-set'.
The manager cannot ask the agent to leave the running config
in an invalid state.  That's only for the candidate config.

I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
and that is what capabilities were designed to address.
(Not the creeping :xpath or :url design!)


Andy

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec 16 08:34:57 2008
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The problem, again, is that the text and the XSD say different things. So the 4741bis should 
clarify it.
Balazs

Andy Bierman wrote:
> Balazs Lengyel wrote:
>> Hello,
>> Is it possible to call get-config against a file, or even a remote 
>> file? In the XSD I see
>>
>>   <xs:complexType name="getConfigSourceType">
>>     <xs:choice>
>>       <xs:element ref="config-name"/>
>>       <xs:element name="url" type="configURIType"/>
>>     </xs:choice>
>>   </xs:complexType>
>>
>> In the text there is no mention about URLs neither in chapter 7.1 
>> <get-config> nor in chapter 8.8 URL capability.
>>
>> I think if edit-config is allowed for URLs/local files then get-config 
>> should be as well.
>> Anyway this should be clarified by the 4741bis. Martin, Jurgen please 
>> add it to your list.
>>
>> The same question is valid for lock/unlock (others?) as well.
>>
> 
> This issue was discussed at length when 4741 was being written,
> and the WG consensus at that time was that the standard needed
> to be very loose about URL-based databases, and the <startup>
> as well.  Several people strongly objected to extending
> the edit operation to URLs at that time.  It was ignored in
> the document on purpose.  Only the operations that have
> URL extensions in the XSD had WG consensus to be supported.
> 
> IMO, we should focus on the 3 standard databases,
> but clarifications are always good.  Maybe new
> capabilities are needed (instead of piling on :url!)
> 
> 
>> Balazs
> 
> Andy
> 
> 

-- 
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
TSP System Manager
ECN: 831 7320                        Fax: +36 1 4377792
Tel: +36-1-437-7320     email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com
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The problem, again, is that the text and the XSD say different things. So the 4741bis should 
clarify it.
Balazs

Andy Bierman wrote:
> Balazs Lengyel wrote:
>> Hello,
>> Is it possible to call get-config against a file, or even a remote 
>> file? In the XSD I see
>>
>>   <xs:complexType name="getConfigSourceType">
>>     <xs:choice>
>>       <xs:element ref="config-name"/>
>>       <xs:element name="url" type="configURIType"/>
>>     </xs:choice>
>>   </xs:complexType>
>>
>> In the text there is no mention about URLs neither in chapter 7.1 
>> <get-config> nor in chapter 8.8 URL capability.
>>
>> I think if edit-config is allowed for URLs/local files then get-config 
>> should be as well.
>> Anyway this should be clarified by the 4741bis. Martin, Jurgen please 
>> add it to your list.
>>
>> The same question is valid for lock/unlock (others?) as well.
>>
> 
> This issue was discussed at length when 4741 was being written,
> and the WG consensus at that time was that the standard needed
> to be very loose about URL-based databases, and the <startup>
> as well.  Several people strongly objected to extending
> the edit operation to URLs at that time.  It was ignored in
> the document on purpose.  Only the operations that have
> URL extensions in the XSD had WG consensus to be supported.
> 
> IMO, we should focus on the 3 standard databases,
> but clarifications are always good.  Maybe new
> capabilities are needed (instead of piling on :url!)
> 
> 
>> Balazs
> 
> Andy
> 
> 

-- 
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
TSP System Manager
ECN: 831 7320                        Fax: +36 1 4377792
Tel: +36-1-437-7320     email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com
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Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,

So maybe the proposed charter text:

      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)

can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs
or inconsistencies" or something similar.


/martin
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Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,

So maybe the proposed charter text:

      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)

can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs
or inconsistencies" or something similar.


/martin
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec 16 09:39:37 2008
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Cc: rbonica@juniper.net, netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
>> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
> 
> So maybe the proposed charter text:
> 
>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs
> or inconsistencies" or something similar.
> 
> 

That would make me very happy.
I want to address real interoperability issues, even if
that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.
You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
the base capability that can be incremented.

Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.


> /martin
> 
> 
> 

Andy

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec 16 09:39:37 2008
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Cc: rbonica@juniper.net, netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
>> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
> 
> So maybe the proposed charter text:
> 
>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs
> or inconsistencies" or something similar.
> 
> 

That would make me very happy.
I want to address real interoperability issues, even if
that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.
You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
the base capability that can be incremented.

Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.


> /martin
> 
> 
> 

Andy

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec 16 13:53:01 2008
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> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> >> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
> >> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
> > 
> > So maybe the proposed charter text:
> > 
> >       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> > 
> > can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed 
> to fix bugs
> > or inconsistencies" or something similar.
> > 
> > 
> 
> That would make me very happy.
> I want to address real interoperability issues, even if
> that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.

Whether chanFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec 16 13:53:01 2008
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From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <mehmet.ersue@nsn.com>
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	"Martin Bjorklund" <mbj@tail-f.com>
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> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> >> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
> >> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
> > 
> > So maybe the proposed charter text:
> > 
> >       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> > 
> > can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed 
> to fix bugs
> > or inconsistencies" or something similar.
> > 
> > 
> 
> That would make me very happy.
> I want to address real interoperability issues, even if
> that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.

Whetheging 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way is 
really needed has to be discussed and decided by the WG. 
This is not excluded by the proposed charter text.

Current charter text proposal says:
     - bug fixes are to be done
     - clarifications can be done
     - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)

The bullets above include IMO also fixing inconsistencies.

How about changing the third bullet above to:
     - extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs 
       or inconsistencies (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)

With this text the WG needs to discuss to find out which 
extensions are fixes to inconsistencies and do not produce 
a NETCONF V2.

Mehmet

> You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
> the base capability that can be incremented.
> 
> Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
> and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.
> 
> 
> > /martin
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> Andy
_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


r changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way is 
really needed has to be discussed and decided by the WG. 
This is not excluded by the proposed charter text.

Current charter text proposal says:
     - bug fixes are to be done
     - clarifications can be done
     - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)

The bullets above include IMO also fixing inconsistencies.

How about changing the third bullet above to:
     - extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs 
       or inconsistencies (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)

With this text the WG needs to discuss to find out which 
extensions are fixes to inconsistencies and do not produce 
a NETCONF V2.

Mehmet

> You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
> the base capability that can be incremented.
> 
> Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
> and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.
> 
> 
> > /martin
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> Andy
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:31:35 +0100
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Thread-Topic: Approval of NETCONF Charter Update WAS:RE: Request for charter
	change
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From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <mehmet.ersue@nsn.com>
To: "ext Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, <rbonica@juniper.net>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Dec 2008 23:31:40.0484 (UTC)
	FILETIME=[72777040:01C95FD6]
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [Netconf] Approval of NETCONF Charter Update WAS:RE: Request for
	charter change
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Hi Dan, Ron,

we think we have WG consensus now for the updated=20
charter text.=20

We would like to ask you to bring it to the IESG telechat=20
on 12/18.

Thanks.

Bert & Mehmet

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_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
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Thread-Topic: Approval of NETCONF Charter Update WAS:RE: Request for charter
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From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <mehmet.ersue@nsn.com>
To: "ext Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, <rbonica@juniper.net>
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Subject: [Netconf] Approval of NETCONF Charter Update WAS:RE: Request for
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Hi Dan, Ron,

we think we have WG consensus now for the updated=20
charter text.=20

We would like to ask you to bring it to the IESG telechat=20
on 12/18.

Thanks.

Bert & Mehmet

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 18 08:10:06 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>>>> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
>>>> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
>>> So maybe the proposed charter text:
>>>
>>>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>>>
>>> can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed 
>> to fix bugs
>>> or inconsistencies" or something similar.
>>>
>>>
>> That would make me very happy.
>> I want to address real interoperability issues, even if
>> that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.
> 
> Whether changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way is 
> really needed has to be discussed and decided by the WG. 

not sure what has already been decided, but the charter
text is OK.

IMO, there are some little details in NETCONF that
should be done over because they do not fit with
the way YANG (and later on NETCONF ACM)From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 18 08:10:06 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>>>> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
>>>> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
>>> So maybe the proposed charter text:
>>>
>>>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>>>
>>> can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed 
>> to fix bugs
>>> or inconsistencies" or something similar.
>>>
>>>
>> That would make me very happy.
>> I want to address real interoperability issues, even if
>> that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.
> 
> Whether changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way is 
> really needed has to be discussed and decided by the WG. 

not sure what has already been decided, but the charter
text is OK.

IMO, there are some little details in NETCONF that
should be done over because they do not fit with
the way YANG (and later on NETCON expects
to organize data.  This won't happen because it
would require a base-capability change, but these
corner-cases should be addressed at some point:

   - use of attributes as parameters in <get>, <get-config>.
     A much better design would have been to use a choice
     between an xpath-filter leaf and a subtree-filter leaf.

   - use of a capability on 1 value of enumeration in <edit-config>
     parameters (:rollback-on-error).  A much better design
     would have been a separate conditional leaf (like test-option).


Andy



> This is not excluded by the proposed charter text.
> 
> Current charter text proposal says:
>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      - clarifications can be done
>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> The bullets above include IMO also fixing inconsistencies.
> 
> How about changing the third bullet above to:
>      - extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs 
>        or inconsistencies (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> With this text the WG needs to discuss to find out which 
> extensions are fixes to inconsistencies and do not produce 
> a NETCONF V2.
> 
> Mehmet
> 
>> You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
>> the base capability that can be incremented.
>>
>> Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
>> and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.
>>
>>
>>> /martin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Andy
> 
> 
> 


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F ACM) expects
to organize data.  This won't happen because it
would require a base-capability change, but these
corner-cases should be addressed at some point:

   - use of attributes as parameters in <get>, <get-config>.
     A much better design would have been to use a choice
     between an xpath-filter leaf and a subtree-filter leaf.

   - use of a capability on 1 value of enumeration in <edit-config>
     parameters (:rollback-on-error).  A much better design
     would have been a separate conditional leaf (like test-option).


Andy



> This is not excluded by the proposed charter text.
> 
> Current charter text proposal says:
>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      - clarifications can be done
>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> The bullets above include IMO also fixing inconsistencies.
> 
> How about changing the third bullet above to:
>      - extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs 
>        or inconsistencies (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> With this text the WG needs to discuss to find out which 
> extensions are fixes to inconsistencies and do not produce 
> a NETCONF V2.
> 
> Mehmet
> 
>> You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
>> the base capability that can be incremented.
>>
>> Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
>> and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.
>>
>>
>>> /martin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Andy
> 
> 
> 


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On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 02:53:07PM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:

> Some operators want every management operation logged, fully. However we 
> also have another requirement: security data, e.g. passwords, must not be 
> logged. It is often not trivial to figure out what data is sensitive, 
> what must be skipped at logging. If such data could be tagged, then we 
> could just say: if it is over security level 4, don't log it.

It is not trivial because the sensitFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Dec 19 05:57:25 2008
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On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 02:53:07PM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:

> Some operators want every management operation logged, fully. However we 
> also have another requirement: security data, e.g. passwords, must not be 
> logged. It is often not trivial to figure out what data is sensitive, 
> what must be skipped at logging. If such data could be tagged, then we 
> could just say: if it is over security level 4, don't log it.

It is not trivial because the ivity of data to some extend
depends on the deployment and I expect that it will be very difficult
to reach agreement whether something has security level 3 or 4. It
might take WGs an additional year to fight^Hfigure this out. (And when
they are done, it goes to the security directorate. ;-)

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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sensitivity of data to some extend
depends on the deployment and I expect that it will be very difficult
to reach agreement whether something has security level 3 or 4. It
might take WGs an additional year to fight^Hfigure this out. (And when
they are done, it goes to the security directorate. ;-)

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 02:53:07PM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:
> 
>> Some operators want every management operation logged, fully. However we 
>> also have another requirement: security data, e.g. passwords, must not be 
>> logged. It is often not trivial to figure out what data is sensitive, 
>> what must be skipped at logging. If such data could be tagged, then we 
>> could just say: if it is over security level 4, don't log it.
> 
> It is not trivial because the sensitivity of data to some extend
> depends on the deployment and I expect that it will be very difficult
> to reach agreement whether something has security level 3 or 4. It
> might take WGs an additional year to fight^Hfigure this out. (And when
> they are done, it goes to the security directorate. ;-)
> 
But internally in my or other companies, where agreement is easier, it would be a nice 
solution, and much better than what we have today i.e. nothing.
Balazs
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Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 02:53:07PM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:
> 
>> Some operators want every management operation logged, fully. However we 
>> also have another requirement: security data, e.g. passwords, must not be 
>> logged. It is often not trivial to figure out what data is sensitive, 
>> what must be skipped at logging. If such data could be tagged, then we 
>> could just say: if it is over security level 4, don't log it.
> 
> It is not trivial because the sensitivity of data to some extend
> depends on the deployment and I expect that it will be very difficult
> to reach agreement whether something has security level 3 or 4. It
> might take WGs an additional year to fight^Hfigure this out. (And when
> they are done, it goes to the security directorate. ;-)
> 
But internally in my or other companies, where agreement is easier, it would be a nice 
solution, and much better than what we have today i.e. nothing.
Balazs
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec 22 01:06:44 2008
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hi

I am working to find out a NMS solution for some networking nodes.that work=
 in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite new to Netconf..
I came across the Netconf and after reading its documents in the initial do=
cuments i saw that netconf over SOAP=C2=A0 was preffered one but later on i=
 read somewhere in some IEEE paper that SSH is mandatory for netconf ,so ia=
m a bit confused now .which one to go for thats over SOAP or over SSH?
I hope someone could help me with that=20


Savitri Negi

Scientist C
 Communication Networks Division
DEAL Dehradun    =0A=0A=0A      Be the first one to try the new Messenger 9=
 Beta! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/win/
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">hi<br><br>I am working to find out a NMS solu=
tion for some networking nodes.that work in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite ne=
w to Netconf..<br>I came across the Netconf and after reading its documents=
 in the initial documents i saw that netconf over SOAP&nbsp; was preffered From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec 22 01:06:44 2008
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hi

I am working to find out a NMS solution for some networking nodes.that work=
 in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite new to Netconf..
I came across the Netconf and after reading its documents in the initial do=
cuments i saw that netconf over SOAP=C2=A0 was preffered one but later on i=
 read somewhere in some IEEE paper that SSH is mandatory for netconf ,so ia=
m a bit confused now .which one to go for thats over SOAP or over SSH?
I hope someone could help me with that=20


Savitri Negi

Scientist C
 Communication Networks Division
DEAL Dehradun    =0A=0A=0A      Be the first one to try the new Messenger 9=
 Beta! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/win/
--0-879879178-1229936481=:66432
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">hi<br><br>I am working to find out a NMS solu=
tion for some networking nodes.that work in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite ne=
w to Netconf..<br>I came across the Netconf and after reading its documents=
 in the initial documents i saw that netconf over SOAP&nbsp; was pref=
one but later on i read somewhere in some IEEE paper that SSH is mandatory =
for netconf ,so iam a bit confused now .which one to go for thats over SOAP=
 or over SSH?<br>I hope someone could help me with that <br><br><div id=3D"=
RTEContent"><div id=3D"RTEContent"><div><br><font color=3D"#0000ff">Savitri=
 Negi</font><br><font color=3D"#823857"><br>Scientist C<br> Communication N=
etworks Division<br>DEAL Dehradun</font></div>    </div></div></td></tr></t=
able><br>=0A      <!--10--><hr size=3D1></hr> From Chandigarh to Chennai - =
find friends all over India. <a href=3D"http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_grou=
ps_10/*http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/"> Click here.</a>
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_______________________________________________
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--===============0423640486==--


fered =
one but later on i read somewhere in some IEEE paper that SSH is mandatory =
for netconf ,so iam a bit confused now .which one to go for thats over SOAP=
 or over SSH?<br>I hope someone could help me with that <br><br><div id=3D"=
RTEContent"><div id=3D"RTEContent"><div><br><font color=3D"#0000ff">Savitri=
 Negi</font><br><font color=3D"#823857"><br>Scientist C<br> Communication N=
etworks Division<br>DEAL Dehradun</font></div>    </div></div></td></tr></t=
able><br>=0A      <!--10--><hr size=3D1></hr> From Chandigarh to Chennai - =
find friends all over India. <a href=3D"http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_grou=
ps_10/*http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/"> Click here.</a>
--0-879879178-1229936481=:66432--

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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: <savitri_negi@yahoo.com>,
	<netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] soap or ssh
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Hi Savitri,
=20
The IEEE paper was correct, and actually RFC 4741 is clear in stating in
Section 2.4 that SSH is the mandatory transport mapping for NETCONF.=20
=20
I am curious - from what document you reached the conclusion that 'SOAP
was preferred'?=20
=20
I hope this helps.=20
=20
Thanks and Regards,
=20
Dan
=20


________________________________

	From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Savitri Negi
	Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:01 AM
	To: netconf@ietf.org
	Subject: [Netconf] soap or ssh
=09
=09
hi

I am working to find out a NMS solution for some networking nodes.that
work in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite new to Netconf..
I came across the Netconf and after reading its documents in the initial
documents i saw that netconf over SOAP  was preffered one but later on i
read somewhere in some IEEE paper that SSH is mandatory for netconf ,so
iam a bit confused now .which one to go for thats over SOAP or over SSH?
I hope someone could help me with that=20



Savitri Negi

Scientist C
Communication Networks Division
DEAL Dehradun

________________________________

	From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Click
here.
<http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_groups_10/*http://in.promos.yahoo.com/gr
oups/citygroups/>=20


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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2><STRONG><EM>Hi Savitri,</EM></STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>The IEEE paper was correct, and actually RFC 4741 is clear in =
stating in=20
Section 2.4 that SSH is the mandatory transport mapping for NETCONF.=20
</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>I am curious - from what document you reached the conclusion =
that 'SOAP=20
was preferred'? </FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>I hope this helps. </FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Thanks and Regards,</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Dan</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> netconf-bounces@ietf.org=20
  [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Savitri=20
  Negi<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 22, 2008 11:01 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  netconf@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Netconf] soap or =
ssh<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD vAlign=3Dtop>hi<BR><BR>I am working to find out a NMS solution =
for=20
        some networking nodes.that work in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite =
new to=20
        Netconf..<BR>I came across the Netconf and after reading its =
documents=20
        in the initial documents i saw that netconf over SOAP&nbsp; was=20
        preffered one but later on i read somewhere in some IEEE paper =
that SSH=20
        is mandatory for netconf ,so iam a bit confused now .which one =
to go for=20
        thats over SOAP or over SSH?<BR>I hope someone could help me =
with that=20
        <BR><BR>
        <DIV id=3DRTEContent>
        <DIV id=3DRTEContent>
        <DIV><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Savitri Negi</FONT><BR><FONT=20
        color=3D#823857><BR>Scientist C<BR>Communication Networks =
Division<BR>DEAL=20
        =
Dehradun</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><!--10-->
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  </HR>From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_groups_10/*http://in.promos.yahoo.=
com/groups/citygroups/">Click=20
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
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	<netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] soap or ssh
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Hi Savitri,
=20
The IEEE paper was correct, and actually RFC 4741 is clear in stating in
Section 2.4 that SSH is the mandatory transport mapping for NETCONF.=20
=20
I am curious - from what document you reached the conclusion that 'SOAP
was preferred'?=20
=20
I hope this helps.=20
=20
Thanks and Regards,
=20
Dan
=20


________________________________

	From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Savitri Negi
	Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:01 AM
	To: netconf@ietf.org
	Subject: [Netconf] soap or ssh
=09
=09
hi

I am working to find out a NMS solution for some networking nodes.that
work in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite new to Netconf..
I came across the Netconf and after reading its documents in the initial
documents i saw that netconf over SOAP  was preffered one but later on i
read somewhere in some IEEE paper that SSH is mandatory for netconf ,so
iam a bit confused now .which one to go for thats over SOAP or over SSH?
I hope someone could help me with that=20



Savitri Negi

Scientist C
Communication Networks Division
DEAL Dehradun

________________________________

	From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Click
here.
<http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_groups_10/*http://in.promos.yahoo.com/gr
oups/citygroups/>=20


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2><STRONG><EM>Hi Savitri,</EM></STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>The IEEE paper was correct, and actually RFC 4741 is clear in =
stating in=20
Section 2.4 that SSH is the mandatory transport mapping for NETCONF.=20
</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>I am curious - from what document you reached the conclusion =
that 'SOAP=20
was preferred'? </FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>I hope this helps. </FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Thanks and Regards,</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Dan</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
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  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> netconf-bounces@ietf.org=20
  [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Savitri=20
  Negi<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 22, 2008 11:01 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  netconf@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Netconf] soap or =
ssh<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD vAlign=3Dtop>hi<BR><BR>I am working to find out a NMS solution =
for=20
        some networking nodes.that work in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite =
new to=20
        Netconf..<BR>I came across the Netconf and after reading its =
documents=20
        in the initial documents i saw that netconf over SOAP&nbsp; was=20
        preffered one but later on i read somewhere in some IEEE paper =
that SSH=20
        is mandatory for netconf ,so iam a bit confused now .which one =
to go for=20
        thats over SOAP or over SSH?<BR>I hope someone could help me =
with that=20
        <BR><BR>
        <DIV id=3DRTEContent>
        <DIV id=3DRTEContent>
        <DIV><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Savitri Negi</FONT><BR><FONT=20
        color=3D#823857><BR>Scientist C<BR>Communication Networks =
Division<BR>DEAL=20
        =
Dehradun</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><!--10-->
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  </HR>From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_groups_10/*http://in.promos.yahoo.=
com/groups/citygroups/">Click=20
  here.</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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THAT looks like a slippery slope ...

dbh 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org 
> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet 
> (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:53 PM
> To: ext Andy Bierman; Martin Bjorklund
> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
> 
> 
> > Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > > Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> > >> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
> > >> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
> > > 
> > > So maybe the proposed charter text:
> > > 
> > >       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> > > 
> > > can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed 
> > to fix bugs
> > > or inconsistencies" or something similar.
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > That would make me very happy.
> > I want to address real interopeFrom netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Dec 22 21:32:54 2008
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From: "David B Harrington" <dbharrington@comcast.net>
To: "'Ersue, Mehmet \(NSN - DE/Munich\)'" <mehmet.ersue@nsn.com>,
	"'ext Andy Bierman'" <andy@netconfcentral.com>,
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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THAT looks like a slippery slope ...

dbh 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org 
> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet 
> (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:53 PM
> To: ext Andy Bierman; Martin Bjorklund
> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
> 
> 
> > Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > > Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
> > >> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
> > >> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
> > > 
> > > So maybe the proposed charter text:
> > > 
> > >       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> > > 
> > > can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed 
> > to fix bugs
> > > or inconsistencies" or something similar.
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > That would make me very happy.
> > I want to address real inrability issues, even if
> > that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.
> 
> Whether changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way is 
> really needed has to be discussed and decided by the WG. 
> This is not excluded by the proposed charter text.
> 
> Current charter text proposal says:
>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      - clarifications can be done
>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> The bullets above include IMO also fixing inconsistencies.
> 
> How about changing the third bullet above to:
>      - extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs 
>        or inconsistencies (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> With this text the WG needs to discuss to find out which 
> extensions are fixes to inconsistencies and do not produce 
> a NETCONF V2.
> 
> Mehmet
> 
> > You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
> > the base capability that can be incremented.
> > 
> > Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
> > and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.
> > 
> > 
> > > /martin
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > Andy
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


teroperability issues, even if
> > that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.
> 
> Whether changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way is 
> really needed has to be discussed and decided by the WG. 
> This is not excluded by the proposed charter text.
> 
> Current charter text proposal says:
>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      - clarifications can be done
>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> The bullets above include IMO also fixing inconsistencies.
> 
> How about changing the third bullet above to:
>      - extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs 
>        or inconsistencies (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
> 
> With this text the WG needs to discuss to find out which 
> extensions are fixes to inconsistencies and do not produce 
> a NETCONF V2.
> 
> Mehmet
> 
> > You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
> > the base capability that can be incremented.
> > 
> > Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
> > and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.
> > 
> > 
> > > /martin
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > Andy
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec 23 07:29:40 2008
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Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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David B Harrington wrote:
> THAT looks like a slippery slope ...
> 

It does seem to exhibit less surface friction
than most charter text we are used to seeing ;-)

We do much better when the functionality is
spelled out, and 1 or more solution proposals
exist (netconf-state, partial-locking, with-defaults, etc.)

My concern is simply that re-publishing a protocol
can have significant deployment cost.  There is an errata
publication process for RFCs, and if all we have is
a handful of clarifying sentences, then a new RFC
is of no real help to the industry.  It only
serves the IETF's (non-trivial) self-interest.


> dbh

Andy


> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org 
>> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet 
>> (NSN - DE/Munich)
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:53 PM
>> To: ext Andy Bierman; Martin Bjorklund
>> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
>>
>>
>>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec 23 07:29:40 2008
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Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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David B Harrington wrote:
> THAT looks like a slippery slope ...
> 

It does seem to exhibit less surface friction
than most charter text we are used to seeing ;-)

We do much better when the functionality is
spelled out, and 1 or more solution proposals
exist (netconf-state, partial-locking, with-defaults, etc.)

My concern is simply that re-publishing a protocol
can have significant deployment cost.  There is an errata
publication process for RFCs, and if all we have is
a handful of clarifying sentences, then a new RFC
is of no real help to the industry.  It only
serves the IETF's (non-trivial) self-interest.


> dbh

Andy


> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org 
>> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet 
>> (NSN - DE/Munich)
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:53 PM
>> To: ext Andy Bierman; Martin Bjorklund
>> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
>>
>>
>>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>>>>> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
>>>>> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
>>>> So maybe the proposed charter text:
>>>>
>>>>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>>>>
>>>> can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed 
>>> to fix bugs
>>>> or inconsistencies" or something similar.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That would make me very happy.
>>> I want to address real interoperability issues, even if
>>> that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.
>> Whether changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way is 
>> really needed has to be discussed and decided by the WG. 
>> This is not excluded by the proposed charter text.
>>
>> Current charter text proposal says:
>>      - bug fixes are to be done
>>      - clarifications can be done
>>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>>
>> The bullets above include IMO also fixing inconsistencies.
>>
>> How about changing the third bullet above to:
>>      - extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs 
>>        or inconsistencies (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>>
>> With this text the WG needs to discuss to find out which 
>> extensions are fixes to inconsistencies and do not produce 
>> a NETCONF V2.
>>
>> Mehmet
>>
>>> You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
>>> the base capability that can be incremented.
>>>
>>> Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
>>> and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.
>>>
>>>
>>>> /martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Andy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
>>>>> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
>>>>> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
>>>> So maybe the proposed charter text:
>>>>
>>>>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>>>>
>>>> can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed 
>>> to fix bugs
>>>> or inconsistencies" or something similar.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That would make me very happy.
>>> I want to address real interoperability issues, even if
>>> that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.
>> Whether changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way is 
>> really needed has to be discussed and decided by the WG. 
>> This is not excluded by the proposed charter text.
>>
>> Current charter text proposal says:
>>      - bug fixes are to be done
>>      - clarifications can be done
>>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>>
>> The bullets above include IMO also fixing inconsistencies.
>>
>> How about changing the third bullet above to:
>>      - extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs 
>>        or inconsistencies (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>>
>> With this text the WG needs to discuss to find out which 
>> extensions are fixes to inconsistencies and do not produce 
>> a NETCONF V2.
>>
>> Mehmet
>>
>>> You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
>>> the base capability that can be incremented.
>>>
>>> Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
>>> and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.
>>>
>>>
>>>> /martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Andy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 


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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec 23 08:33:21 2008
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From: "Bert Wijnen \(IETF\)" <bertietf@bwijnen.net>
To: "Andy Bierman" <andy@netconfcentral.com>,
	"David B Harrington" <dbharrington@comcast.net>
References: <A294F5A3E722D94FBEB6D49C1506F6F70163439F@DEMUEXC005.nsn-intra.net>	<49477227.9000000@s3group.com>	<4947D859.9020300@netconfcentral.com><20081216.182609.197852496.mbj@tail-f.com><4947E7CC.9070700@netconfcentral.com><A294F5A3E722D94FBEB6D49C1506F6F7016343D6@DEMUEXC005.nsn-intra.net><006101c964bf$e0b63b20$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com>
	<495103D6.3090202@netconfcentral.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Andy/David (and others),

our draft WG recharter-text is already inIESG and IAB review.
We did submit it last week remember.=20
So... do we really want to start making more changes?
If so, please DO submit proposed alternate/replacement text

Bert
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Andy Bierman=20
  To: David B Harrington=20
  Cc: netconf@ietf.org=20
  Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change


  David B Harrington wrote:
  > THAT looks like a slippery slope ...
  >=20

  It does seem to exhibit less surface friction
  than most charter text we are used to seeing ;-)

  We do much better when the functionality is
  spelled out, and 1 or more solution proposals
  exist (netconf-state, partial-locking, with-defaults, etc.)

  My concern is simply that re-publishing a protocol
  can have significant deployment cost.  There is an errata
  publication process for RFCs, and if all we have is
  a handful of clarifying sentences, then a new RFC
  is of no real help to the industry.  It only
  serves the IETF's (non-trivial) self-interest.


  > dbh

  Andy


  >=20
  >> -----Original Message-----
  >> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org=20
  >> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet=20
  >> (NSN - DE/Munich)
  >> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:53 PM
  >> To: ext Andy Bierman; Martin Bjorklund
  >> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
  >> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
  >>
  >>
  >>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
  >>>> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
  >>>>> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
  >>>>> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
  >>>> So maybe the proposed charter text:
  >>>>
  >>>>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
  >>>>
  >>>> can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed=20
  >>> to fix bugs
  >>>> or inconsistencies" or something similar.
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>> That would make me very happy.
  >>> I want to address real interoperability issues, even if
  >>> that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.
  >> Whether changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way is=20
  >> really needed has to be discussed and decided by the WG.=20
  >> This is not excluded by the proposed charter text.
  >>
  >> Current charter text proposal says:
  >>      - bug fixes are to be done
  >>      - clarifications can be done
  >>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
  >>
  >> The bullets above include IMO also fixing inconsistencies.
  >>
  >> How about changing the third bullet above to:
  >>      - extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs=20
  >>        or inconsistencies (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
  >>
  >> With this text the WG needs to discuss to find out which=20
  >> extensions are fixes to inconsistencies and do not produce=20
  >> a NETCONF V2.
  >>
  >> Mehmet
  >>
  >>> You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
  >>> the base capability that can be incremented.
  >>>
  >>> Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
  >>> and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>> /martin
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>> Andy
  >> _______________________________________________
  >> Netconf mailing list
  >> Netconf@ietf.org
  >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
  >>
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20


  _______________________________________________
  Netconf mailing list
  Netconf@ietf.org
  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Andy/David (and others),</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>our draft WG recharter-text is already inIESG and =
IAB=20
review.<BR>We did submit it last week remember. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So... do we really want to start making more=20
changes?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If so, please DO submit proposed =
alternate/replacement=20
text</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dandy@netconfcentral.com =
href=3D"mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com">Andy=20
  Bierman</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Ddbharrington@comcast.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:dbharrington@comcast.net">David B Harrington</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =

  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 23, =
2008 4:29=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Netconf] Request =
for=20
  charter change</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>David B Harrington wrote:<BR>&gt; THAT looks like a =
slippery=20
  slope ...<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>It does seem to exhibit less surface=20
  friction<BR>than most charter text we are used to seeing ;-)<BR><BR>We =
do much=20
  better when the functionality is<BR>spelled out, and 1 or more =
solution=20
  proposals<BR>exist (netconf-state, partial-locking, with-defaults,=20
  etc.)<BR><BR>My concern is simply that re-publishing a protocol<BR>can =
have=20
  significant deployment cost.&nbsp; There is an errata<BR>publication =
process=20
  for RFCs, and if all we have is<BR>a handful of clarifying sentences, =
then a=20
  new RFC<BR>is of no real help to the industry.&nbsp; It only<BR>serves =
the=20
  IETF's (non-trivial) self-interest.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;=20
  dbh<BR><BR>Andy<BR><BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; -----Original=20
  Message-----<BR>&gt;&gt; From: <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org">netconf-bounces@ietf.org</A>=20
  <BR>&gt;&gt; [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, =
Mehmet=20
  <BR>&gt;&gt; (NSN - DE/Munich)<BR>&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, December 16, =
2008=20
  4:53 PM<BR>&gt;&gt; To: ext Andy Bierman; Martin Bjorklund<BR>&gt;&gt; =
Cc: <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</A><BR>&gt;&gt; =
Subject: Re:=20
  [Netconf] Request for charter =
change<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;=20
  Martin Bjorklund wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Andy Bierman &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com">andy@netconfcentral.com</A>&gt;=20
  wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think Martin's suggestion about a=20
  :validate.1.1 capability<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; will work fine for =
test-only,=20
  because it is a pure extension,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; So maybe the =
proposed=20
  charter=20
  =
text:<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
  - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF=20
  V2)<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; can be changed to =
"extensions can=20
  be done only when needed <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; to fix =
bugs<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or=20
  inconsistencies" or something=20
  similar.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; That =
would=20
  make me very happy.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; I want to address real =
interoperability=20
  issues, even if<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; that means changing 1.0 in a =
non-backward=20
  compatible way.<BR>&gt;&gt; Whether changing 1.0 in a non-backward =
compatible=20
  way is <BR>&gt;&gt; really needed has to be discussed and decided by =
the WG.=20
  <BR>&gt;&gt; This is not excluded by the proposed charter=20
  text.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Current charter text proposal=20
  says:<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - bug fixes are to be=20
  done<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - clarifications can be =

  done<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - no extensions (i.e. =
we are=20
  not doing a NETCONF V2)<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; The bullets above =
include IMO=20
  also fixing inconsistencies.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; How about =
changing the=20
  third bullet above to:<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - =
extensions=20
  can be done only when needed to fix bugs=20
  <BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; or =
inconsistencies=20
  (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; With this =
text=20
  the WG needs to discuss to find out which <BR>&gt;&gt; extensions are =
fixes to=20
  inconsistencies and do not produce <BR>&gt;&gt; a NETCONF=20
  V2.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Mehmet<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; You =
reminded me=20
  that we have lots of capabilities besides<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; the base =
capability=20
  that can be incremented.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Of course, =
the=20
  default is not to add or change anything,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; and there =
are very=20
  few actual changes actually=20
  proposed.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=20
  =
/martin<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;=20
  Andy<BR>&gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
  Netconf mailing list<BR>&gt;&gt; <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</A><BR>&gt;&gt; <A=20
  =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</A><BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
  <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;=20
  <BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Netconf =
mailing=20
  list<BR><A href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</A><BR><A =

  =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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	"David B Harrington" <dbharrington@comcast.net>
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Andy/David (and others),

our draft WG recharter-text is already inIESG and IAB review.
We did submit it last week remember.=20
So... do we really want to start making more changes?
If so, please DO submit proposed alternate/replacement text

Bert
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Andy Bierman=20
  To: David B Harrington=20
  Cc: netconf@ietf.org=20
  Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change


  David B Harrington wrote:
  > THAT looks like a slippery slope ...
  >=20

  It does seem to exhibit less surface friction
  than most charter text we are used to seeing ;-)

  We do much better when the functionality is
  spelled out, and 1 or more solution proposals
  exist (netconf-state, partial-locking, with-defaults, etc.)

  My concern is simply that re-publishing a protocol
  can have significant deployment cost.  There is an errata
  publication process for RFCs, and if all we have is
  a handful of clarifying sentences, then a new RFC
  is of no real help to the industry.  It only
  serves the IETF's (non-trivial) self-interest.


  > dbh

  Andy


  >=20
  >> -----Original Message-----
  >> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org=20
  >> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet=20
  >> (NSN - DE/Munich)
  >> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:53 PM
  >> To: ext Andy Bierman; Martin Bjorklund
  >> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
  >> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
  >>
  >>
  >>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
  >>>> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com> wrote:
  >>>>> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
  >>>>> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
  >>>> So maybe the proposed charter text:
  >>>>
  >>>>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
  >>>>
  >>>> can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed=20
  >>> to fix bugs
  >>>> or inconsistencies" or something similar.
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>> That would make me very happy.
  >>> I want to address real interoperability issues, even if
  >>> that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.
  >> Whether changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way is=20
  >> really needed has to be discussed and decided by the WG.=20
  >> This is not excluded by the proposed charter text.
  >>
  >> Current charter text proposal says:
  >>      - bug fixes are to be done
  >>      - clarifications can be done
  >>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
  >>
  >> The bullets above include IMO also fixing inconsistencies.
  >>
  >> How about changing the third bullet above to:
  >>      - extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs=20
  >>        or inconsistencies (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
  >>
  >> With this text the WG needs to discuss to find out which=20
  >> extensions are fixes to inconsistencies and do not produce=20
  >> a NETCONF V2.
  >>
  >> Mehmet
  >>
  >>> You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
  >>> the base capability that can be incremented.
  >>>
  >>> Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
  >>> and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>> /martin
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>> Andy
  >> _______________________________________________
  >> Netconf mailing list
  >> Netconf@ietf.org
  >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
  >>
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20


  _______________________________________________
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Andy/David (and others),</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>our draft WG recharter-text is already inIESG and =
IAB=20
review.<BR>We did submit it last week remember. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So... do we really want to start making more=20
changes?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If so, please DO submit proposed =
alternate/replacement=20
text</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dandy@netconfcentral.com =
href=3D"mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com">Andy=20
  Bierman</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Ddbharrington@comcast.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:dbharrington@comcast.net">David B Harrington</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =

  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 23, =
2008 4:29=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Netconf] Request =
for=20
  charter change</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>David B Harrington wrote:<BR>&gt; THAT looks like a =
slippery=20
  slope ...<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>It does seem to exhibit less surface=20
  friction<BR>than most charter text we are used to seeing ;-)<BR><BR>We =
do much=20
  better when the functionality is<BR>spelled out, and 1 or more =
solution=20
  proposals<BR>exist (netconf-state, partial-locking, with-defaults,=20
  etc.)<BR><BR>My concern is simply that re-publishing a protocol<BR>can =
have=20
  significant deployment cost.&nbsp; There is an errata<BR>publication =
process=20
  for RFCs, and if all we have is<BR>a handful of clarifying sentences, =
then a=20
  new RFC<BR>is of no real help to the industry.&nbsp; It only<BR>serves =
the=20
  IETF's (non-trivial) self-interest.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;=20
  dbh<BR><BR>Andy<BR><BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; -----Original=20
  Message-----<BR>&gt;&gt; From: <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org">netconf-bounces@ietf.org</A>=20
  <BR>&gt;&gt; [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, =
Mehmet=20
  <BR>&gt;&gt; (NSN - DE/Munich)<BR>&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, December 16, =
2008=20
  4:53 PM<BR>&gt;&gt; To: ext Andy Bierman; Martin Bjorklund<BR>&gt;&gt; =
Cc: <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</A><BR>&gt;&gt; =
Subject: Re:=20
  [Netconf] Request for charter =
change<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;=20
  Martin Bjorklund wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Andy Bierman &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com">andy@netconfcentral.com</A>&gt;=20
  wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think Martin's suggestion about a=20
  :validate.1.1 capability<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; will work fine for =
test-only,=20
  because it is a pure extension,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; So maybe the =
proposed=20
  charter=20
  =
text:<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
  - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF=20
  V2)<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; can be changed to =
"extensions can=20
  be done only when needed <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; to fix =
bugs<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or=20
  inconsistencies" or something=20
  similar.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; That =
would=20
  make me very happy.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; I want to address real =
interoperability=20
  issues, even if<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; that means changing 1.0 in a =
non-backward=20
  compatible way.<BR>&gt;&gt; Whether changing 1.0 in a non-backward =
compatible=20
  way is <BR>&gt;&gt; really needed has to be discussed and decided by =
the WG.=20
  <BR>&gt;&gt; This is not excluded by the proposed charter=20
  text.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Current charter text proposal=20
  says:<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - bug fixes are to be=20
  done<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - clarifications can be =

  done<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - no extensions (i.e. =
we are=20
  not doing a NETCONF V2)<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; The bullets above =
include IMO=20
  also fixing inconsistencies.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; How about =
changing the=20
  third bullet above to:<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - =
extensions=20
  can be done only when needed to fix bugs=20
  <BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; or =
inconsistencies=20
  (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; With this =
text=20
  the WG needs to discuss to find out which <BR>&gt;&gt; extensions are =
fixes to=20
  inconsistencies and do not produce <BR>&gt;&gt; a NETCONF=20
  V2.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Mehmet<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; You =
reminded me=20
  that we have lots of capabilities besides<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; the base =
capability=20
  that can be incremented.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Of course, =
the=20
  default is not to add or change anything,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; and there =
are very=20
  few actual changes actually=20
  proposed.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=20
  =
/martin<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;=20
  Andy<BR>&gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
  Netconf mailing list<BR>&gt;&gt; <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</A><BR>&gt;&gt; <A=20
  =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</A><BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
  <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;=20
  <BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Netconf =
mailing=20
  list<BR><A href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</A><BR><A =

  =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec 23 08:51:58 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Bert Wijnen (IETF) wrote:
> Andy/David (and others),
>  
> our draft WG recharter-text is already inIESG and IAB review.
> We did submit it last week remember.
> So... do we really want to start making more changes?
> If so, please DO submit proposed alternate/replacement text
>  

I am not trying to change any text,
but don't kid yourself that the new charter text
in question will be of any use in the future to resolve one
of the those 'in scope or out of scope' decisions.

I think it is good to address interoperability,
instead of just assume everything is going fine.
Juergen's draft is a great first step.  This is the next
logical step.  Real interoperability is the only metric
that matters in the end.

One example: XPath.
Sharon (and others) have commented in the past
that :xpath should be mandatory because everybody
implements it.  Really?  Only 1 of the 3 implementations
in the report claimed to From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Dec 23 08:51:58 2008
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
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Bert Wijnen (IETF) wrote:
> Andy/David (and others),
>  
> our draft WG recharter-text is already inIESG and IAB review.
> We did submit it last week remember.
> So... do we really want to start making more changes?
> If so, please DO submit proposed alternate/replacement text
>  

I am not trying to change any text,
but don't kid yourself that the new charter text
in question will be of any use in the future to resolve one
of the those 'in scope or out of scope' decisions.

I think it is good to address interoperability,
instead of just assume everything is going fine.
Juergen's draft is a great first step.  This is the next
logical step.  Real interoperability is the only metric
that matters in the end.

One example: XPath.
Sharon (and others) have commented in the past
that :xpath should be mandatory because everybody
implements it.  Really?  Only 1 of the 3 implementations
in the report claimimplement it.  Does 'everybody'
implement XPath in an interoperable manner?  How would we know?

It seems odd to me that the RFC is being updated
based on implementation experience, but the WG has
never even requested an implementation report from anybody.

> Bert

Andy

> 
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Andy Bierman <mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com>
>     *To:* David B Harrington <mailto:dbharrington@comcast.net>
>     *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:29 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
> 
>     David B Harrington wrote:
>      > THAT looks like a slippery slope ...
>      >
> 
>     It does seem to exhibit less surface friction
>     than most charter text we are used to seeing ;-)
> 
>     We do much better when the functionality is
>     spelled out, and 1 or more solution proposals
>     exist (netconf-state, partial-locking, with-defaults, etc.)
> 
>     My concern is simply that re-publishing a protocol
>     can have significant deployment cost.  There is an errata
>     publication process for RFCs, and if all we have is
>     a handful of clarifying sentences, then a new RFC
>     is of no real help to the industry.  It only
>     serves the IETF's (non-trivial) self-interest.
> 
> 
>      > dbh
> 
>     Andy
> 
> 
>      >
>      >> -----Original Message-----
>      >> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org>
>      >> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet
>      >> (NSN - DE/Munich)
>      >> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:53 PM
>      >> To: ext Andy Bierman; Martin Bjorklund
>      >> Cc: netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
>      >> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>      >>>> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com
>     <mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com>> wrote:
>      >>>>> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
>      >>>>> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
>      >>>> So maybe the proposed charter text:
>      >>>>
>      >>>>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>      >>>>
>      >>>> can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed
>      >>> to fix bugs
>      >>>> or inconsistencies" or something similar.
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>> That would make me very happy.
>      >>> I want to address real interoperability issues, even if
>      >>> that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.
>      >> Whether changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way is
>      >> really needed has to be discussed and decided by the WG.
>      >> This is not excluded by the proposed charter text.
>      >>
>      >> Current charter text proposal says:
>      >>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      >>      - clarifications can be done
>      >>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>      >>
>      >> The bullets above include IMO also fixing inconsistencies.
>      >>
>      >> How about changing the third bullet above to:
>      >>      - extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs
>      >>        or inconsistencies (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>      >>
>      >> With this text the WG needs to discuss to find out which
>      >> extensions are fixes to inconsistencies and do not produce
>      >> a NETCONF V2.
>      >>
>      >> Mehmet
>      >>
>      >>> You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
>      >>> the base capability that can be incremented.
>      >>>
>      >>> Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
>      >>> and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.
>      >>>
>      >>>
>      >>>> /martin
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>> Andy
>      >> _______________________________________________
>      >> Netconf mailing list
>      >> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>      >>
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
> 
> 
>ed to implement it.  Does 'everybody'
implement XPath in an interoperable manner?  How would we know?

It seems odd to me that the RFC is being updated
based on implementation experience, but the WG has
never even requested an implementation report from anybody.

> Bert

Andy

> 
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Andy Bierman <mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com>
>     *To:* David B Harrington <mailto:dbharrington@comcast.net>
>     *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:29 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
> 
>     David B Harrington wrote:
>      > THAT looks like a slippery slope ...
>      >
> 
>     It does seem to exhibit less surface friction
>     than most charter text we are used to seeing ;-)
> 
>     We do much better when the functionality is
>     spelled out, and 1 or more solution proposals
>     exist (netconf-state, partial-locking, with-defaults, etc.)
> 
>     My concern is simply that re-publishing a protocol
>     can have significant deployment cost.  There is an errata
>     publication process for RFCs, and if all we have is
>     a handful of clarifying sentences, then a new RFC
>     is of no real help to the industry.  It only
>     serves the IETF's (non-trivial) self-interest.
> 
> 
>      > dbh
> 
>     Andy
> 
> 
>      >
>      >> -----Original Message-----
>      >> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org>
>      >> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet
>      >> (NSN - DE/Munich)
>      >> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:53 PM
>      >> To: ext Andy Bierman; Martin Bjorklund
>      >> Cc: netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
>      >> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Request for charter change
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>> Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>      >>>> Andy Bierman <andy@netconfcentral.com
>     <mailto:andy@netconfcentral.com>> wrote:
>      >>>>> I think Martin's suggestion about a :validate.1.1 capability
>      >>>>> will work fine for test-only, because it is a pure extension,
>      >>>> So maybe the proposed charter text:
>      >>>>
>      >>>>       - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>      >>>>
>      >>>> can be changed to "extensions can be done only when needed
>      >>> to fix bugs
>      >>>> or inconsistencies" or something similar.
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>> That would make me very happy.
>      >>> I want to address real interoperability issues, even if
>      >>> that means changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way.
>      >> Whether changing 1.0 in a non-backward compatible way is
>      >> really needed has to be discussed and decided by the WG.
>      >> This is not excluded by the proposed charter text.
>      >>
>      >> Current charter text proposal says:
>      >>      - bug fixes are to be done
>      >>      - clarifications can be done
>      >>      - no extensions (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>      >>
>      >> The bullets above include IMO also fixing inconsistencies.
>      >>
>      >> How about changing the third bullet above to:
>      >>      - extensions can be done only when needed to fix bugs
>      >>        or inconsistencies (i.e. we are not doing a NETCONF V2)
>      >>
>      >> With this text the WG needs to discuss to find out which
>      >> extensions are fixes to inconsistencies and do not produce
>      >> a NETCONF V2.
>      >>
>      >> Mehmet
>      >>
>      >>> You reminded me that we have lots of capabilities besides
>      >>> the base capability that can be incremented.
>      >>>
>      >>> Of course, the default is not to add or change anything,
>      >>> and there are very few actual changes actually proposed.
>      >>>
>      >>>
>      >>>> /martin
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>> Andy
>      >> _______________________________________________
>      >> Netconf mailing list
>      >> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>      >>
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>     _______________________________________________
>     Netconf mailing list
>     Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


 
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     Netconf mailing list
>     Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


_______________________________________________
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From: Savitri Negi <savitri_negi@yahoo.com>
To: netconf@ietf.org, "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
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hi actually iam a bit confusd over this yet=20
,RFC 5381 says that SOAP is used as transport protocol for netconf ,and eve=
n in RFC 4743 SOAP is one of the transport protocls for NEtconf ,though SSH=
 is said to be a mandatory protocol=C2=A0 then i dont understand why we hav=
e got three options thats SOAP BEEP and SSH ,
Does that mean i need to implement SOAP as well as SSH as transport ...
Actually in some papers i read that SOAP was preferrd because a lot of open=
 source tools and web tools are available when we use SOAP=20
But Iam still confused ..
i hope sumbody could possibly help me out ...

thanx ..
Savitri Negi

Scientist C
 Communication Networks Division
DEAL Dehradun  =C2=A0 =20


--- On Mon, 22/12/08, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <dromasca@avaya.com> wrote:
From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <dromasca@avaya.com>
Subject: RE: [Netconf] soap or ssh
To: savitri_negi@yahoo.com, netconf@ietf.org
Date: Monday, 22 December, 2008, 3:05 PM



=20
Hi Savitri,
=C2=A0
The IEEE paper was correct, and actually RFC 4741 is clear in stating in=20
Section 2.4 that SSH is the mandatory transport mapping for NETCONF.=20

=C2=A0
I am curious - from what document you reached the conclusion that 'SOAP=20
was preferred'?=20
=C2=A0
I hope this helps.=20
=C2=A0
Thanks and Regards,
=C2=A0
Dan
=C2=A0


 =20
 =20
  From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org=20
  [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Savitri=20
  Negi
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:01 AM
To:=20
  netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [Netconf] soap or ssh


 =20
 =20
   =20
   =20
      hi

I am working to find out a NMS solution for=20
        some networking nodes.that work in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite new=
 to=20
        Netconf..
I came across the Netconf and after reading its documents=20
        in the initial documents i saw that netconf over SOAP=C2=A0 was=20
        preffered one but later on i read somewhere in some IEEE paper that=
 SSH=20
        is mandatory for netconf ,so iam a bit confused now .which one to g=
o for=20
        thats over SOAP or over SSH?
I hope someone could help me with that=20
       =20


       =20
       =20
       =20
Savitri Negi

Scientist C
Communication Networks Division
DEAL=20
        Dehradun

 =20
  From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Click=20
  here.=0A=0A=0A      Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more=
! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/
--0-1020405215-1230093873=:47949
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><br>hi actually iam a bit confusd over this y=
et <br>,RFC 5381 says that SOAP is used as transport protocol for netconf ,=
and even in RFC 4743 SOAP is one of the transport protocls for NEtconf ,tho=
ugh SSH is said to be a mandatory protocol&nbsp; then i dont understand why=
 we have got three options thats SOAP BEEP and SSH ,<br>Does that mean i ne=
ed to implement SOAP as well as SSH as transport ...<br>Actually in some pa=
pers i read that SOAP was preferrd because a lot of open source tools and w=
eb tools are available when we use SOAP <br>But Iam still confused ..<br>i =
hope sumbody could possibly help me out ...<br><br><div id=3D"RTEContent"><=
div id=3D"RTEContent"><div>thanx ..<br><font color=3D"#0000ff">Savitri Negi=
</font><br><font color=3D"#823857"><br>Scientist C<br> Communication Networ=
ks Division<br>DEAL Dehradun</font></div>  <div>&nbsp;</div>  <div><font
 color=3D"#ff4040"><em></em></font><br></div></div></div><br><br>--- On <b>=
Mon, 22/12/08, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <i>&lt;dromasca@avaya.com&gt;</i></b> w=
rote:<br><blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); marg=
in-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) &lt;dromasca@a=
vaya.com&gt;<br>Subject: RE: [Netconf] soap or ssh<br>To: savitri_negi@yaho=
o.com, netconf@ietf.org<br>Date: Monday, 22 December, 2008, 3:05 PM<br><br>=
<div id=3D"yiv604292863">

=20
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Ari=
al" size=3D"2"><strong><em>Hi Savitri,</em></strong></font></span></div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></em></strong></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">The IEEE paper was correct, and actually RFC 474=
1 is clear in stating in=20
Section 2.4 that SSH is the mandatory transport mapping for NETCONF.=20
</font></em></strong></span></div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></em></strong></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">I am curious - from what document you reached th=
e conclusion that 'SOAP=20
was preferred'? </font></em></strong></span></div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></em></strong></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">I hope this helps. </font></em></strong></span><=
/div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></em></strong></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Thanks and Regards,</font></em></strong></span><=
/div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></em></strong></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Dan</font></em></strong></span></div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></em></strong></span>&nbsp;</div><br>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5=
px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
  <div class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" lang=3D"en=
-us">
  <hr tabindex=3D"-1">
  <font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> netconf-bounces@ietf.org=20
  [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Savitri=20
  Negi<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 22, 2008 11:01 AM<br><b>To:</b>=20
  netconf@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Netconf] soap or ssh<br></font><br><=
/div>
  <div></div>
  <table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
    <tbody>
    <tr>
      <td valign=3D"top">hi<br><br>I am working to find out a NMS solution =
for=20
        some networking nodes.that work in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite new=
 to=20
        Netconf..<br>I came across the Netconf and after reading its docume=
nts=20
        in the initial documents i saw that netconf over SOAP&nbsp; was=20
        preffered one but later on i read somewhere in some IEEE paper that=
 SSH=20
        is mandatory for netconf ,so iam a bit confused now .which one to g=
o for=20
        thats over SOAP or over SSH?<br>I hope someone could help me with t=
hat=20
        <br><br>
        <div id=3D"RTEContent">
        <div id=3D"RTEContent">
        <div><br><font color=3D"#0000ff">Savitri Negi</font><br><font color=
=3D"#823857"><br>Scientist C<br>Communication Networks Division<br>DEAL=20
        Dehradun</font></div></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><br>
  <hr size=3D"1">
  From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. <a rel=3D"nofol=
low" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_groups_10/*ht=
tp://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/">Click=20
  here.</a></blockquote></div></blockquote></td></tr></table><br>=0A      <=
!--6--><hr size=3D1></hr> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! <a =
href=3D"http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_messenger_6/*http://messenger.yahoo.=
com/invite/"> Invite them now.</a>
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From: Savitri Negi <savitri_negi@yahoo.com>
To: netconf@ietf.org, "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
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hi actually iam a bit confusd over this yet=20
,RFC 5381 says that SOAP is used as transport protocol for netconf ,and eve=
n in RFC 4743 SOAP is one of the transport protocls for NEtconf ,though SSH=
 is said to be a mandatory protocol=C2=A0 then i dont understand why we hav=
e got three options thats SOAP BEEP and SSH ,
Does that mean i need to implement SOAP as well as SSH as transport ...
Actually in some papers i read that SOAP was preferrd because a lot of open=
 source tools and web tools are available when we use SOAP=20
But Iam still confused ..
i hope sumbody could possibly help me out ...

thanx ..
Savitri Negi

Scientist C
 Communication Networks Division
DEAL Dehradun  =C2=A0 =20


--- On Mon, 22/12/08, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <dromasca@avaya.com> wrote:
From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <dromasca@avaya.com>
Subject: RE: [Netconf] soap or ssh
To: savitri_negi@yahoo.com, netconf@ietf.org
Date: Monday, 22 December, 2008, 3:05 PM



=20
Hi Savitri,
=C2=A0
The IEEE paper was correct, and actually RFC 4741 is clear in stating in=20
Section 2.4 that SSH is the mandatory transport mapping for NETCONF.=20

=C2=A0
I am curious - from what document you reached the conclusion that 'SOAP=20
was preferred'?=20
=C2=A0
I hope this helps.=20
=C2=A0
Thanks and Regards,
=C2=A0
Dan
=C2=A0


 =20
 =20
  From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org=20
  [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Savitri=20
  Negi
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:01 AM
To:=20
  netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [Netconf] soap or ssh


 =20
 =20
   =20
   =20
      hi

I am working to find out a NMS solution for=20
        some networking nodes.that work in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite new=
 to=20
        Netconf..
I came across the Netconf and after reading its documents=20
        in the initial documents i saw that netconf over SOAP=C2=A0 was=20
        preffered one but later on i read somewhere in some IEEE paper that=
 SSH=20
        is mandatory for netconf ,so iam a bit confused now .which one to g=
o for=20
        thats over SOAP or over SSH?
I hope someone could help me with that=20
       =20


       =20
       =20
       =20
Savitri Negi

Scientist C
Communication Networks Division
DEAL=20
        Dehradun

 =20
  From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Click=20
  here.=0A=0A=0A      Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more=
! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/
--0-1020405215-1230093873=:47949
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><br>hi actually iam a bit confusd over this y=
et <br>,RFC 5381 says that SOAP is used as transport protocol for netconf ,=
and even in RFC 4743 SOAP is one of the transport protocls for NEtconf ,tho=
ugh SSH is said to be a mandatory protocol&nbsp; then i dont understand why=
 we have got three options thats SOAP BEEP and SSH ,<br>Does that mean i ne=
ed to implement SOAP as well as SSH as transport ...<br>Actually in some pa=
pers i read that SOAP was preferrd because a lot of open source tools and w=
eb tools are available when we use SOAP <br>But Iam still confused ..<br>i =
hope sumbody could possibly help me out ...<br><br><div id=3D"RTEContent"><=
div id=3D"RTEContent"><div>thanx ..<br><font color=3D"#0000ff">Savitri Negi=
</font><br><font color=3D"#823857"><br>Scientist C<br> Communication Networ=
ks Division<br>DEAL Dehradun</font></div>  <div>&nbsp;</div>  <div><font
 color=3D"#ff4040"><em></em></font><br></div></div></div><br><br>--- On <b>=
Mon, 22/12/08, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <i>&lt;dromasca@avaya.com&gt;</i></b> w=
rote:<br><blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); marg=
in-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) &lt;dromasca@a=
vaya.com&gt;<br>Subject: RE: [Netconf] soap or ssh<br>To: savitri_negi@yaho=
o.com, netconf@ietf.org<br>Date: Monday, 22 December, 2008, 3:05 PM<br><br>=
<div id=3D"yiv604292863">

=20
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Ari=
al" size=3D"2"><strong><em>Hi Savitri,</em></strong></font></span></div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></em></strong></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">The IEEE paper was correct, and actually RFC 474=
1 is clear in stating in=20
Section 2.4 that SSH is the mandatory transport mapping for NETCONF.=20
</font></em></strong></span></div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></em></strong></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">I am curious - from what document you reached th=
e conclusion that 'SOAP=20
was preferred'? </font></em></strong></span></div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></em></strong></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">I hope this helps. </font></em></strong></span><=
/div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></em></strong></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Thanks and Regards,</font></em></strong></span><=
/div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></em></strong></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Dan</font></em></strong></span></div>
<div><span class=3D"844383209-22122008"><strong><em><font color=3D"#0000ff"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></em></strong></span>&nbsp;</div><br>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5=
px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
  <div class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" lang=3D"en=
-us">
  <hr tabindex=3D"-1">
  <font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> netconf-bounces@ietf.org=20
  [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Savitri=20
  Negi<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 22, 2008 11:01 AM<br><b>To:</b>=20
  netconf@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Netconf] soap or ssh<br></font><br><=
/div>
  <div></div>
  <table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
    <tbody>
    <tr>
      <td valign=3D"top">hi<br><br>I am working to find out a NMS solution =
for=20
        some networking nodes.that work in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite new=
 to=20
        Netconf..<br>I came across the Netconf and after reading its docume=
nts=20
        in the initial documents i saw that netconf over SOAP&nbsp; was=20
        preffered one but later on i read somewhere in some IEEE paper that=
 SSH=20
        is mandatory for netconf ,so iam a bit confused now .which one to g=
o for=20
        thats over SOAP or over SSH?<br>I hope someone could help me with t=
hat=20
        <br><br>
        <div id=3D"RTEContent">
        <div id=3D"RTEContent">
        <div><br><font color=3D"#0000ff">Savitri Negi</font><br><font color=
=3D"#823857"><br>Scientist C<br>Communication Networks Division<br>DEAL=20
        Dehradun</font></div></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><br>
  <hr size=3D"1">
  From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. <a rel=3D"nofol=
low" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_groups_10/*ht=
tp://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/">Click=20
  here.</a></blockquote></div></blockquote></td></tr></table><br>=0A      <=
!--6--><hr size=3D1></hr> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! <a =
href=3D"http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_messenger_6/*http://messenger.yahoo.=
com/invite/"> Invite them now.</a>
--0-1020405215-1230093873=:47949--

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On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 08:44:33PM -0800, Savitri Negi wrote:
 
> hi actually iam a bit confusd over this yet 
> ,RFC 5381 says that SOAP is used as transport protocol for netconf
>  ,and even in RFC 4743 SOAP is one of the transport protocls for
> NEtconf ,though SSH is said to be a mandatory protocol?? then i dont
> understand why we have got three options thats SOAP BEEP and SSH ,

I think the IESG note on the front page of RFC 5381 is quite clear.

> Does that mean i need to implement SOAP as well as SSH as transport ...

You must implement SSH and you might optionally implement any other
transport.

> Actually in some papers i read that SOAP was preferrd because a lot
> of open source tools and web tools are available when we use SOAP

Perhaps preferred by the authors; if someone claims SOAP is the
preferred transport of the IETF, then the author is simply wrong.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 08:44:33PM -0800, Savitri Negi wrote:
 
> hi actually iam a bit confusd over this yet 
> ,RFC 5381 says that SOAP is used as transport protocol for netconf
>  ,and even in RFC 4743 SOAP is one of the transport protocls for
> NEtconf ,though SSH is said to be a mandatory protocol?? then i dont
> understand why we have got three options thats SOAP BEEP and SSH ,

I think the IESG note on the front page of RFC 5381 is quite clear.

> Does that mean i need to implement SOAP as well as SSH as transport ...

You must implement SSH and you might optionally implement any other
transport.

> Actually in some papers i read that SOAP was preferrd because a lot
> of open source tools and web tools are available when we use SOAP

Perhaps preferred by the authors; if someone claims SOAP is the
preferred transport of the IETF, then the author is simply wrong.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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=20


________________________________

	From: Savitri Negi [mailto:savitri_negi@yahoo.com]=20
	Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 6:45 AM
	To: netconf@ietf.org; Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
	Subject: RE: [Netconf] soap or ssh
=09
=09

hi actually iam a bit confusd over this yet=20
,RFC 5381 says that SOAP is used as transport protocol for netconf ,and
even in RFC 4743 SOAP is one of the transport protocls for NEtconf
,though SSH is said to be a mandatory protocol  then i dont understand
why we have got three options thats SOAP BEEP and SSH ,
Does that mean i need to implement SOAP as well as SSH as transport ...
[DR] SSH is mandatory transport, BEEP and SOAP are optional. A compliant
implementation MUST implement SSH, From netconf-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 25 09:33:42 2008
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
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=20


________________________________

	From: Savitri Negi [mailto:savitri_negi@yahoo.com]=20
	Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 6:45 AM
	To: netconf@ietf.org; Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
	Subject: RE: [Netconf] soap or ssh
=09
=09

hi actually iam a bit confusd over this yet=20
,RFC 5381 says that SOAP is used as transport protocol for netconf ,and
even in RFC 4743 SOAP is one of the transport protocls for NEtconf
,though SSH is said to be a mandatory protocol  then i dont understand
why we have got three options thats SOAP BEEP and SSH ,
Does that mean i need to implement SOAP as well as SSH as transport ...
[DR] SSH is mandatory transport, BEEP and SOAP are optional. A compliant
implementation MUST implementand MAY implement SOAP or BEEP.=20
=20
Actually in some papers i read that SOAP was preferrd because a lot of
open source tools and web tools are available when we use SOAP=20
[DR] People may prefer other transports for different reasons, the IETF
requirements are being stated in the standards tracks IETF RFCs. Again,
Section 2.4 of RFC4741 is the reference that you must look at.=20
=20
Dan
=20
But Iam still confused ..
i hope sumbody could possibly help me out ...


thanx ..
Savitri Negi

Scientist C
Communication Networks Division
DEAL Dehradun
=20




--- On Mon, 22/12/08, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <dromasca@avaya.com> wrote:


	From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <dromasca@avaya.com>
	Subject: RE: [Netconf] soap or ssh
	To: savitri_negi@yahoo.com, netconf@ietf.org
	Date: Monday, 22 December, 2008, 3:05 PM
=09
=09
	Hi Savitri,
	=20
	The IEEE paper was correct, and actually RFC 4741 is clear in
stating in Section 2.4 that SSH is the mandatory transport mapping for
NETCONF.=20
	=20
	I am curious - from what document you reached the conclusion
that 'SOAP was preferred'?=20
	=20
	I hope this helps.=20
	=20
	Thanks and Regards,
	=20
	Dan
	=20


________________________________

		From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Savitri Negi
		Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:01 AM
		To: netconf@ietf.org
		Subject: [Netconf] soap or ssh
	=09
	=09
hi

I am working to find out a NMS solution for some networking nodes.that
work in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite new to Netconf..
I came across the Netconf and after reading its documents in the initial
documents i saw that netconf over SOAP  was preffered one but later on i
read somewhere in some IEEE paper that SSH is mandatory for netconf ,so
iam a bit confused now .which one to go for thats over SOAP or over SSH?
I hope someone could help me with that=20



Savitri Negi

Scientist C
Communication Networks Division
DEAL Dehradun

________________________________

		From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over
India. Click here.
<http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_groups_10/*http://in.promos.yahoo.com/gr
oups/citygroups/>=20


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	Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.
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<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
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  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Savitri Negi=20
  [mailto:savitri_negi@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December =
24, 2008=20
  6:45 AM<BR><B>To:</B> netconf@ietf.org; Romascanu, Dan=20
  (Dan)<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Netconf] soap or =
ssh<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
        <DIV><BR>hi actually iam a bit confusd over this yet <BR>,RFC =
5381 says=20
        that SOAP is used as transport protocol for netconf ,and even in =
RFC=20
        4743 SOAP is one of the transport protocls for NEtconf ,though =
SSH is=20
        said to be a mandatory protocol&nbsp; then i dont understand why =
we have=20
        got three options thats SOAP BEEP and SSH ,<BR>Does that mean i =
need to=20
        implement SOAP as well as SSH as transport ...<BR><SPAN=20
        class=3D845222717-25122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2>[DR]&nbsp;SSH is mandatory transport,&nbsp;BEEP and =
SOAP are=20
        optional. A compliant implementation MUST implement SSH, and MA SSH, and MAY implement SOAP or BEEP.=20
=20
Actually in some papers i read that SOAP was preferrd because a lot of
open source tools and web tools are available when we use SOAP=20
[DR] People may prefer other transports for different reasons, the IETF
requirements are being stated in the standards tracks IETF RFCs. Again,
Section 2.4 of RFC4741 is the reference that you must look at.=20
=20
Dan
=20
But Iam still confused ..
i hope sumbody could possibly help me out ...


thanx ..
Savitri Negi

Scientist C
Communication Networks Division
DEAL Dehradun
=20




--- On Mon, 22/12/08, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <dromasca@avaya.com> wrote:


	From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <dromasca@avaya.com>
	Subject: RE: [Netconf] soap or ssh
	To: savitri_negi@yahoo.com, netconf@ietf.org
	Date: Monday, 22 December, 2008, 3:05 PM
=09
=09
	Hi Savitri,
	=20
	The IEEE paper was correct, and actually RFC 4741 is clear in
stating in Section 2.4 that SSH is the mandatory transport mapping for
NETCONF.=20
	=20
	I am curious - from what document you reached the conclusion
that 'SOAP was preferred'?=20
	=20
	I hope this helps.=20
	=20
	Thanks and Regards,
	=20
	Dan
	=20


________________________________

		From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Savitri Negi
		Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:01 AM
		To: netconf@ietf.org
		Subject: [Netconf] soap or ssh
	=09
	=09
hi

I am working to find out a NMS solution for some networking nodes.that
work in adhoc environemnt .Iam quite new to Netconf..
I came across the Netconf and after reading its documents in the initial
documents i saw that netconf over SOAP  was preffered one but later on i
read somewhere in some IEEE paper that SSH is mandatory for netconf ,so
iam a bit confused now .which one to go for thats over SOAP or over SSH?
I hope someone could help me with that=20



Savitri Negi

Scientist C
Communication Networks Division
DEAL Dehradun

________________________________

		From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over
India. Click here.
<http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_groups_10/*http://in.promos.yahoo.com/gr
oups/citygroups/>=20


________________________________

	Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.
<http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_messenger_6/*http://messenger.yahoo.com/
invite/>=20


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	charset="us-ascii"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3492" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Savitri Negi=20
  [mailto:savitri_negi@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December =
24, 2008=20
  6:45 AM<BR><B>To:</B> netconf@ietf.org; Romascanu, Dan=20
  (Dan)<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Netconf] soap or =
ssh<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
        <DIV><BR>hi actually iam a bit confusd over this yet <BR>,RFC =
5381 says=20
        that SOAP is used as transport protocol for netconf ,and even in =
RFC=20
        4743 SOAP is one of the transport protocls for NEtconf ,though =
SSH is=20
        said to be a mandatory protocol&nbsp; then i dont understand why =
we have=20
        got three options thats SOAP BEEP and SSH ,<BR>Does that mean i =
need to=20
        implement SOAP as well as SSH as transport ...<BR><SPAN=20
        class=3D845222717-25122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2>[DR]&nbsp;SSH is mandatory transport,&nbsp;BEEP and =
SOAP are=20
        optional. A compliant implementation MUST implement SSH, Y =

        implement SOAP&nbsp;or =
BEEP.&nbsp;</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D845222717-25122008></SPAN><SPAN=20
        class=3D845222717-25122008>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR>Actually in some =
papers i read=20
        that SOAP was preferrd because a lot of open source tools and =
web tools=20
        are available when we use SOAP <BR><SPAN=20
        class=3D845222717-25122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2>[DR]&nbsp;People may prefer other transports for =
different=20
        reasons, the IETF requirements are being stated in the standards =
tracks=20
        IETF RFCs.&nbsp;Again, Section 2.4 of RFC4741 is the reference =
that you=20
        must look at. </FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D845222717-25122008></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D845222717-25122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
        color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dan</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D845222717-25122008>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR>But Iam =
still=20
        confused ..<BR>i hope sumbody could possibly help me out=20
        ...<BR><BR></DIV>
        <DIV id=3DRTEContent>
        <DIV id=3DRTEContent>
        <DIV>thanx ..<BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Savitri =
Negi</FONT><BR><FONT=20
        color=3D#823857><BR>Scientist C<BR>Communication Networks =
Division<BR>DEAL=20
        Dehradun</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT=20
        =
color=3D#ff4040><EM></EM></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR>--- On=20
        <B>Mon, 22/12/08, Romascanu, Dan (Dan)=20
        <I>&lt;dromasca@avaya.com&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From:=20
          Romascanu, Dan (Dan) &lt;dromasca@avaya.com&gt;<BR>Subject: =
RE:=20
          [Netconf] soap or ssh<BR>To: savitri_negi@yahoo.com,=20
          netconf@ietf.org<BR>Date: Monday, 22 December, 2008, 3:05 =
PM<BR><BR>
          <DIV id=3Dyiv604292863>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2><STRONG><EM>Hi =
Savitri,</EM></STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The IEEE paper was correct, and =
actually RFC 4741=20
          is clear in stating in Section 2.4 that SSH is the mandatory =
transport=20
          mapping for NETCONF. </FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I am curious - from what document you =
reached the=20
          conclusion that 'SOAP was preferred'?=20
          </FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I hope this helps.=20
          </FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Thanks and=20
          Regards,</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000and MAY =

        implement SOAP&nbsp;or =
BEEP.&nbsp;</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D845222717-25122008></SPAN><SPAN=20
        class=3D845222717-25122008>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR>Actually in some =
papers i read=20
        that SOAP was preferrd because a lot of open source tools and =
web tools=20
        are available when we use SOAP <BR><SPAN=20
        class=3D845222717-25122008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2>[DR]&nbsp;People may prefer other transports for =
different=20
        reasons, the IETF requirements are being stated in the standards =
tracks=20
        IETF RFCs.&nbsp;Again, Section 2.4 of RFC4741 is the reference =
that you=20
        must look at. </FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D845222717-25122008></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D845222717-25122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
        color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dan</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D845222717-25122008>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR>But Iam =
still=20
        confused ..<BR>i hope sumbody could possibly help me out=20
        ...<BR><BR></DIV>
        <DIV id=3DRTEContent>
        <DIV id=3DRTEContent>
        <DIV>thanx ..<BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Savitri =
Negi</FONT><BR><FONT=20
        color=3D#823857><BR>Scientist C<BR>Communication Networks =
Division<BR>DEAL=20
        Dehradun</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT=20
        =
color=3D#ff4040><EM></EM></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR>--- On=20
        <B>Mon, 22/12/08, Romascanu, Dan (Dan)=20
        <I>&lt;dromasca@avaya.com&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From:=20
          Romascanu, Dan (Dan) &lt;dromasca@avaya.com&gt;<BR>Subject: =
RE:=20
          [Netconf] soap or ssh<BR>To: savitri_negi@yahoo.com,=20
          netconf@ietf.org<BR>Date: Monday, 22 December, 2008, 3:05 =
PM<BR><BR>
          <DIV id=3Dyiv604292863>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2><STRONG><EM>Hi =
Savitri,</EM></STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The IEEE paper was correct, and =
actually RFC 4741=20
          is clear in stating in Section 2.4 that SSH is the mandatory =
transport=20
          mapping for NETCONF. </FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I am curious - from what document you =
reached the=20
          conclusion that 'SOAP was preferred'?=20
          </FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I hope this helps.=20
          </FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Thanks and=20
          Regards,</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3ff size=3D2>Dan</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
          <BLOCKQUOTE=20
          style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
            <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
            <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
            <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> =
netconf-bounces@ietf.org=20
            [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Savitri=20
            Negi<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 22, 2008 11:01=20
            AM<BR><B>To:</B> netconf@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
[Netconf] soap=20
            or ssh<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
            <DIV></DIV>
            <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
              <TBODY>
              <TR>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop>hi<BR><BR>I am working to find out a =
NMS=20
                  solution for some networking nodes.that work in adhoc=20
                  environemnt .Iam quite new to Netconf..<BR>I came =
across the=20
                  Netconf and after reading its documents in the initial =

                  documents i saw that netconf over SOAP&nbsp; was =
preffered one=20
                  but later on i read somewhere in some IEEE paper that =
SSH is=20
                  mandatory for netconf ,so iam a bit confused now =
.which one to=20
                  go for thats over SOAP or over SSH?<BR>I hope someone =
could=20
                  help me with that <BR><BR>
                  <DIV id=3DRTEContent>
                  <DIV id=3DRTEContent>
                  <DIV><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Savitri =
Negi</FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  color=3D#823857><BR>Scientist C<BR>Communication =
Networks=20
                  Division<BR>DEAL=20
              =
Dehradun</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
            <HR SIZE=3D1>
            From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. <A =

            =
href=3D"http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_groups_10/*http://in.promos.yahoo.=
com/groups/citygroups/"=20
            target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>Click=20
        =
here.</A></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><!=
--6-->
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  </HR>Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_messenger_6/*http://messenger.yaho=
o.com/invite/">Invite=20
  them now.</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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D#0000ff size=3D2>Dan</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D844383209-22122008><STRONG><EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
          <BLOCKQUOTE=20
          style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
            <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
            <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
            <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> =
netconf-bounces@ietf.org=20
            [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Savitri=20
            Negi<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 22, 2008 11:01=20
            AM<BR><B>To:</B> netconf@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
[Netconf] soap=20
            or ssh<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
            <DIV></DIV>
            <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
              <TBODY>
              <TR>
                <TD vAlign=3Dtop>hi<BR><BR>I am working to find out a =
NMS=20
                  solution for some networking nodes.that work in adhoc=20
                  environemnt .Iam quite new to Netconf..<BR>I came =
across the=20
                  Netconf and after reading its documents in the initial =

                  documents i saw that netconf over SOAP&nbsp; was =
preffered one=20
                  but later on i read somewhere in some IEEE paper that =
SSH is=20
                  mandatory for netconf ,so iam a bit confused now =
.which one to=20
                  go for thats over SOAP or over SSH?<BR>I hope someone =
could=20
                  help me with that <BR><BR>
                  <DIV id=3DRTEContent>
                  <DIV id=3DRTEContent>
                  <DIV><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Savitri =
Negi</FONT><BR><FONT=20
                  color=3D#823857><BR>Scientist C<BR>Communication =
Networks=20
                  Division<BR>DEAL=20
              =
Dehradun</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
            <HR SIZE=3D1>
            From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. <A =

            =
href=3D"http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_groups_10/*http://in.promos.yahoo.=
com/groups/citygroups/"=20
            target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>Click=20
        =
here.</A></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><!=
--6-->
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  </HR>Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_messenger_6/*http://messenger.yaho=
o.com/invite/">Invite=20
  them now.</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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