From nobody Sun Jul 1 17:10:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietf.org Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8AE8130E93; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 17:10:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netconf@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153049021170.27357.723685955046603708@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2018 17:10:11 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-17.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 00:10:12 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Datastore Subscription Authors : Alexander Clemm Eric Voit Alberto Gonzalez Prieto Ambika Prasad Tripathy Einar Nilsen-Nygaard Andy Bierman Balazs Lengyel Filename : draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-17.txt Pages : 56 Date : 2018-07-01 Abstract: Via the mechanism described in this document, subscriber applications may request a continuous, customized stream of updates from a YANG datastore. Providing such visibility into changes made upon YANG configuration and operational objects enables new capabilities based on the remote mirroring of configuration and operational state. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-17 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-17 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-17 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Jul 1 17:13:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED24130E93 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 17:12:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xMPGb3glan1A for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 17:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3327130E2B for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 17:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id DF7E7F7BC416 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 01:12:51 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 01:12:52 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.141]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.186]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 17:12:45 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: t.petch , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-16.txt Thread-Index: AQHT+KuqG+Qi+9YWG0S98T5Ca5/0HaRJnKPWgDGkmIA= Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 00:12:44 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB1C8D1@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <152774940642.22476.13768400482415608756@ietfa.amsl.com> <026f01d3f8c6$a48578a0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> In-Reply-To: <026f01d3f8c6$a48578a0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.247.241] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-16.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 00:13:00 -0000 Hello Tom,=20 thank you for your comments! We have just posted an updated revision (-17)= that addresses them all. Kind regards --- Alex > -----Original Message----- > From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of t.petch > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 3:02 AM > To: netconf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-16.txt >=20 > This I-D would appear to have a number of defects in the YANG module. >=20 > - no Copyright >=20 > - no request to the RFC Editor to update the revision date to the publica= tion date >=20 > - no Reference statements for > import ietf-yang-types { prefix yang;} > import ietf-subscribed-notifications {prefix sn; } > import ietf-datastores {prefix ds; } > import ietf-restconf { prefix rc; >=20 > - Restconf is an Informative Reference in the I-D >=20 > - no reference in the I-D for yang-types >=20 > - I-D references RFC7223 which is obsoleted by RFC8343 >=20 > Tom Petch >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 7:50 AM >=20 > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF. > > > > Title : YANG Datastore Subscription > > Authors : Alexander Clemm > > Eric Voit > > Alberto Gonzalez Prieto > > Ambika Prasad Tripathy > > Einar Nilsen-Nygaard > > Andy Bierman > > Balazs Lengyel > > Filename : draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-16.txt > > Pages : 54 > > Date : 2018-05-30 > > > > Abstract: > > Via the mechanism described in this document, subscriber > applications > > may request a continuous, customized stream of updates from a YANG > > datastore. Providing such visibility into changes made upon YANG > > configuration and operational datastore nodes enables new > > capabilities based on the remote mirroring of configuration and > > operational state. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push/ > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-16 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-16 > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-16 > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > I-D-Announce mailing list > > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf From nobody Sun Jul 1 19:10:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B9C130EFF for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 19:10:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qf9Ahf1MHuEb for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 19:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B128F130E2C for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 19:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 3C15A7840B5F2 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 03:10:11 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMI424-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.153) by lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 03:10:12 +0100 Received: from DGGEMI526-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.180]) by DGGEMI424-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:10:06 +0800 From: "Wubo (lana)" To: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Review of draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-00 Thread-Index: AdQRqTdVZgjuvQxKTiOHMbgCclej/A== Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 02:10:07 +0000 Message-ID: <520ECC8D9CA1724BA1CE492DF898F6A33176A2@DGGEMI526-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.189.23] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_520ECC8D9CA1724BA1CE492DF898F6A33176A2DGGEMI526MBXchina_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] Review of draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 02:10:18 -0000 --_000_520ECC8D9CA1724BA1CE492DF898F6A33176A2DGGEMI526MBXchina_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,all I like this proposal and add missing piece in NETCONF 2.0 on how to handle = action operation together with other NC operations. A few quick comments as= follows: 1.How do we identify ifstatenable within as action operation? true 2.How do you prevent action operation from conflicting with other sub-opera= tion within and ? 3.I think inline action operation can also be applied to other NC/RC operat= ions such as ,,? Best regards. Bo --_000_520ECC8D9CA1724BA1CE492DF898F6A33176A2DGGEMI526MBXchina_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,all

I like this proposal and add missing piece in NETCONF 2.0 on how to h= andle action operation together with other NC operations. A few quick comments as follows:


1.How do we identify ifstatenable within <config> as action operation= ?
<config>
<ifstatenable xc:operation=3D"action">
<enable>true<enable>
</ifstatenable>
</config>

2.How do you prevent action operation from conflicting with other sub-opera= tion within <edit-config> and <edit-data>?
3.I think inline action operation can also be applied to other NC/RC operat= ions such as <get>,<get-config>,<get-data>?

 

Best regards.

 

Bo

 

--_000_520ECC8D9CA1724BA1CE492DF898F6A33176A2DGGEMI526MBXchina_-- From nobody Sun Jul 1 19:18:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E697A130DF1 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 19:18:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i8i2LLhkZKg9 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 19:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BCE8124D68 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 19:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 22EEAFB03FF8D for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 03:18:28 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 03:18:29 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.193]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:18:17 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Wubo (lana)" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Review of draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-00 Thread-Index: AdQRqTdVZgjuvQxKTiOHMbgCclej/AAALLew Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 02:18:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <520ECC8D9CA1724BA1CE492DF898F6A33176A2@DGGEMI526-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <520ECC8D9CA1724BA1CE492DF898F6A33176A2@DGGEMI526-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.244] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEBE24Fnkgeml513mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Review of draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 02:18:33 -0000 --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEBE24Fnkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhhbmtzIEJvLCBwbGVhc2Ugc2VlIHJlcGx5IGxpbmUuDQq3orz+yMs6IE5ldGNvbmYgW21haWx0 bzpuZXRjb25mLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddILT6se0gV3VibyAobGFuYSkNCreiy83KsbzkOiAy MDE4xOo31MIyyNUgMTA6MTANCsrVvP7IyzogbmV0Y29uZkBpZXRmLm9yZw0K1vfM4jogW05ldGNv bmZdIFJldmlldyBvZiBkcmFmdC16aGVuZy1uZXRjb25mLWlubGluZS1hY3Rpb24tY2FwYWJpbGl0 eS0wMA0KDQpIaSxhbGwNCkkgbGlrZSB0aGlzIHByb3Bvc2FsIGFuZCBhZGQgbWlzc2luZyBwaWVj ZSBpbiBORVRDT05GIDIuMCBvbiBob3cgdG8gaGFuZGxlIGFjdGlvbiBvcGVyYXRpb24gdG9nZXRo ZXIgd2l0aCBvdGhlciBOQyBvcGVyYXRpb25zLiBBIGZldyBxdWljayBjb21tZW50cyBhcyBmb2xs b3dzOg0KDQoxLkhvdyBkbyB3ZSBpZGVudGlmeSBpZnN0YXRlbmFibGUgd2l0aGluIDxjb25maWc+ IGFzIGFjdGlvbiBvcGVyYXRpb24/DQo8Y29uZmlnPg0KPGlmc3RhdGVuYWJsZSB4YzpvcGVyYXRp b249ImFjdGlvbiI+DQo8ZW5hYmxlPnRydWU8ZW5hYmxlPg0KPC9pZnN0YXRlbmFibGU+DQo8L2Nv bmZpZz4NCg0KW1Fpbl06IEdvb2QgY2F0Y2gsIEkgdGhpbmsgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIGlmc3RhdGVuYWJs ZSBlbGVtZW50IHNob3VsZCBiZSBpbmNsdWRlIHdpdGhpbiA8YWN0aW9uPmVsZW1lbnQgYW5kIHVz ZSBhY3Rpb24gZWxlbWVudCB0byBpZGVudGlmeSBhY3Rpb24gb3BlcmF0aW9uIGRhdGEuDQoNCjIu SG93IGRvIHlvdSBwcmV2ZW50IGFjdGlvbiBvcGVyYXRpb24gZnJvbSBjb25mbGljdGluZyB3aXRo IG90aGVyIHN1Yi1vcGVyYXRpb24gd2l0aGluIDxlZGl0LWNvbmZpZz4gYW5kIDxlZGl0LWRhdGE+ Pw0KDQpbUWluXTpHb29kIHBvaW50LCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgbWFrZSBzdXJlIGFjdGlvbiBvcGVyYXRp b24gYW5kIG90aGVyIG9wZXJhdGlvbiB0byBiZSBleGVjdXRlZCB0b2dldGhlciB3aWxsIG5vdCBn ZW5lcmF0ZSB1bmV4cGVjdGVkIHJlc3VsdC4NCg0KMy5JIHRoaW5rIGlubGluZSBhY3Rpb24gb3Bl cmF0aW9uIGNhbiBhbHNvIGJlIGFwcGxpZWQgdG8gb3RoZXIgTkMvUkMgb3BlcmF0aW9ucyBzdWNo IGFzIDxnZXQ+LDxnZXQtY29uZmlnPiw8Z2V0LWRhdGE+Pw0KDQpbUWluXTogWWVzLCB0aGF0oa9z IGNvcnJlY3QsIGF0IHRoaXMgc3RhZ2UsIHdlIGxpa2UgdG8gc3RhcnQgZnJvbSA8ZWRpdC1jb25m aWc+IGFuZCA8ZWRpdC1kYXRhPiBjYXNlcy4gV2Ugd2lsbCBjb3ZlciBvdGhlciBOQy9SQyBvcGVy YXRpb25zIGluIHRoZSBsYXRlciB2ZXJzaW9uIGFmdGVyDQphY3Rpb24gb3BlcmF0aW9uIHdpdGhp biA8ZWRpdC1jb25maWc+IGFuZCA8ZWRpdC1kYXRhPiBvcGVyYXRpb24gYXJlIHdlbGwgc3BlY2lm aWVkLg0KDQpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMuDQoNCkJvDQoNCg== --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEBE24Fnkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Bo, please see reply line.

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Netconf [mailto:netco= nf-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED = Wubo (lana)
=B7=A2=CB=CD= =CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C2<= span lang=3D"EN-US">2=C8=D5 10:10
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: netconf@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Netconf] Review of draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-00<= /o:p>

 

Hi,all

I like this proposal and add missing piece= in NETCONF 2.0 on how to handle action operation together with other NC operations. A few quick comments as follows:


1.How do we identify ifstatenable within <config> as action operation= ?
<config>
<ifstatenable xc:operation=3D"action">
<enable>true<enable>
</ifstatenable>
</config>

[Qin]: Good catch, I think we should= ifstatenable element should be include within <action>element and us= e action element to identify action operation data.


2.How do you prevent action operation from conflicting with other sub-opera= tion within <edit-config> and <edit-data>?

 

[Qin]:Good point, we should make sur= e action operation and other operation to be executed together will not gen= erate unexpected result.


3.I think inline action operation can also be applied to other NC/RC operat= ions such as <get>,<get-config>,<get-data>?

&n= bsp;

[Qin]: Yes, that=A1=AFs correct, at this stage, we like to start = from <edit-config> and <edit-data> cases. We will cover other N= C/RC operations in the later version after

action operation within <edit-config> and <edit-data>= operation are well specified.

 

Best regards.=

 

Bo

 

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEBE24Fnkgeml513mbxchi_-- From nobody Sun Jul 1 20:48:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietf.org Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D490130E00; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 20:48:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netconf@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153050330726.27468.3214160595152627904@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2018 20:48:27 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel-03.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 03:48:28 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF. Title : UDP based Publication Channel for Streaming Telemetry Authors : Guangying Zheng Tianran Zhou Alexander Clemm Filename : draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel-03.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2018-07-01 Abstract: This document describes a UDP-based publication channel for streaming telemetry use to collect data from devices. A new shim header is proposed to facilitate the distributed data collection mechanism which directly pushes data from line cards to the collector. Because of the lightweight UDP encapsulation, higher frequency and better transit performance can be achieved. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Jul 1 23:08:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A327130E0D for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 23:08:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PBo4lZpdcV_m for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 23:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6B7F130E0C for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 23:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4A75EA798EB17 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 07:08:30 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 07:08:31 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 14:08:28 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHUEbeWDoVOYvXj30CE2ZsHELlm5aR7ceeg Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 06:08:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <153050330726.27468.3214160595152627904@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <153050330726.27468.3214160595152627904@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.156.116] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel-03.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 06:08:36 -0000 Hi Folks, We've just updated the draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel based on the disc= ussion and comments on-line off-line. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel-03 Basically, we clarified the terms and add a section on DTLS support. Please review and comment. Thanks, Tianran > -----Original Message----- > From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 11:48 AM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: netconf@ietf.org > Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel-03.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF. >=20 > Title : UDP based Publication Channel for Streaming > Telemetry > Authors : Guangying Zheng > Tianran Zhou > Alexander Clemm > Filename : draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel-03.txt > Pages : 19 > Date : 2018-07-01 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes a UDP-based publication channel for streaming > telemetry use to collect data from devices. A new shim header is > proposed to facilitate the distributed data collection mechanism > which directly pushes data from line cards to the collector. Because > of the lightweight UDP encapsulation, higher frequency and better > transit performance can be achieved. >=20 >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel-03 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel > -03 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel-03 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf From nobody Mon Jul 2 03:34:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90518130E06; 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what is a module set? Yes, I see that a data store schema is made up of module sets, which are made up of modules, but given, say, 40 modules, what criteria decide whether this is one set of 40, two of 20, half a dozen of varying size or what? Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "The IESG" To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: ; ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 5:22 PM > The IESG has received a request from the Network Configuration WG (netconf) > to consider the following document: - 'YANG Library' > as Proposed Standard > > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final > comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the > ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-06-28. Exceptionally, comments may be > sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of > the Subject line to allow automated sorting. > > Abstract > > > This document describes a YANG library that provides information > about the YANG modules, datastores, and datastore schemas used by a > network management server. Simple caching mechanisms are provided to > allow clients to minimize retrieval of this information. This > version of the YANG library supports the Network Management Datastore > Architecture by listing all datastores supported by a network > management server and the schema that is used by each of these > datastores. > > This document obsoletes RFC 7895. > > > > > The file can be obtained via > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ > > IESG discussion can be tracked via > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ballot/ > > > No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. > > > > From nobody Mon Jul 2 03:48:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA04130F13; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 03:48:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oDil5v5zkAod; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 03:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8CA4130E06; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 03:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 68EC222BEB4A; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 12:48:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 12:48:09 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "t.petch" Cc: netconf@ietf.org, ibagdona@gmail.com, mjethanandani@gmail.com, netconf-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180702104809.esyhspttv4ul2rz3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "t.petch" , netconf@ietf.org, ibagdona@gmail.com, mjethanandani@gmail.com, netconf-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis@ietf.org References: <152899335818.26447.7759890925422555917.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <03ac01d411ef$f7d0cfe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <03ac01d411ef$f7d0cfe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Last Call: (YANG Library) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 10:48:15 -0000 On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 11:32:12AM +0100, t.petch wrote: > One aspect of this leaves me puzzled; what is a module set? > > Yes, I see that a data store schema is made up of module sets, which are > made up of modules, but given, say, 40 modules, what criteria decide > whether this is one set of 40, two of 20, half a dozen of varying size > or what? > Why does the size of the module set matter? Creating these module sets is left to the implementations, some may want to go for big module sets, other for more modular module sets (that may be easier to share and combine). Some implementors may have 'packages' or 'bundles' of modules that they may map to module sets. For the clients, it should not matter how a server splits things into module sets. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Jul 2 03:51:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA14130F2B; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 03:51:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sk0L30lBVLis; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 03:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBECF130E06; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 03:51:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3597; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530528669; x=1531738269; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MXo1DnewKt8yihve/BnlyTXMaYBdbZcC+fbPdC0xLgA=; b=WBzATjJ1NCTWqo/pXsBD+80TbdgHeTG+NyVTHgKY++aEXnRpZ+rBLI/g mymE120Na7GEz5RnZuoEt3hDXWGJzVjgqVy8dEMkFFe5hGTyOC9hg+Tfe 77lDV3wG+K1W6uXlwIqDfmQ+nq2rujALme0M79kzIa57PPDtON9S/x3zQ Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B0AQAoAzpb/xbLJq1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYQrfyiDeYhjjTkIIogujnALI4FUgnUCg1E3FQECAQECAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?CbRwMhTYBAQEBAyMPAQU2CwwECxIDAQICAiYCAiEoDgYBDAYCAQGDHAGBZwM?= =?us-ascii?q?VD6cfghyEW4IzDYEugSkFgQuJOD+BDycMglyCVkICAwGBRoMXglUCmRsrCYY?= =?us-ascii?q?GhgyDBQaBQIQMgkaFQ4ozT4EzhVKBVyKBUjMaCBsVgnABM4JMiEiFPz4wkV0?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,298,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="4918488" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 02 Jul 2018 10:51:06 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w62Ap6mW004302; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:51:06 GMT To: "t.petch" , netconf@ietf.org Cc: ibagdona@gmail.com, mjethanandani@gmail.com, netconf-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis@ietf.org References: <152899335818.26447.7759890925422555917.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <03ac01d411ef$f7d0cfe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <50d82291-02de-bca3-5384-bc8a8e9e1cb3@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 11:51:06 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <03ac01d411ef$f7d0cfe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Last Call: (YANG Library) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 10:51:12 -0000 Hi Tom, It is entirely up to the server implementation to decide what modules should be put together into a single module set. Some examples of categories that could be used to group different related modules together: (i) Modules that are common across all datastores, vs modules that are only used for particular datastores (e.g. a dynamic datastore). (ii) Modules for different versions of software could be reported as separate module sets.  Only the module set(s) associated with a particular software version would expect to be used.  This hypothetical example is from the YANG versioning work, and may or may not become a recommendation depending on how that work pans out ... (iii) Sometimes vendors want to split their software up into separate packages, and module sets could be used to represent these different packages (e.g. core, vs L2VPN, vs L3VPN, vs Subscribers, etc). (iv) Sometimes devices need to support different schemas at the same time (e.g. The IETF ecosystem, vs OpenConfig ecosystem, vs vendor native ecosystem).  Again, this is another case where module sets may be useful to differentiate between the different groups. Of course, if a server is very simple, and none of the above applies, then it could choose to have just a single module set. Does that help clarify their potential usage? Thanks, Rob On 02/07/2018 11:32, t.petch wrote: > One aspect of this leaves me puzzled; what is a module set? > > Yes, I see that a data store schema is made up of module sets, which are > made up of modules, but given, say, 40 modules, what criteria decide > whether this is one set of 40, two of 20, half a dozen of varying size > or what? > > Tom Petch > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "The IESG" > To: "IETF-Announce" > Cc: ; ; > ; ; > > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 5:22 PM > >> The IESG has received a request from the Network Configuration WG > (netconf) >> to consider the following document: - 'YANG Library' >> as Proposed Standard >> >> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits > final >> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the >> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-06-28. Exceptionally, comments may > be >> sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the > beginning of >> the Subject line to allow automated sorting. >> >> Abstract >> >> >> This document describes a YANG library that provides information >> about the YANG modules, datastores, and datastore schemas used by a >> network management server. Simple caching mechanisms are provided > to >> allow clients to minimize retrieval of this information. This >> version of the YANG library supports the Network Management > Datastore >> Architecture by listing all datastores supported by a network >> management server and the schema that is used by each of these >> datastores. >> >> This document obsoletes RFC 7895. >> >> >> >> >> The file can be obtained via >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ >> >> IESG discussion can be tracked via >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ballot/ >> >> >> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. >> >> >> >> > . > From nobody Mon Jul 2 05:16:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 803801277D2 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 05:16:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zTLn2ppkSkkO for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 05:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35235130E4F for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 05:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 9BB8AFF8499B3; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:16:33 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:16:34 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.193]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 20:16:28 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUDgohYkKCob3+QEeCTKJnrpl8VqR0/o0ggAAY6ACAAV+F8IAAiDSAgAEcNQCAAEg30P//ne4AgAO4TyA= Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 12:16:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87a7rfjdcx.fsf@nic.cz> <2A66E046-CE29-42B5-A60C-1313357378DE@juniper.net> <20180630090808.5g232ydinkbsnddg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180630090808.5g232ydinkbsnddg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.244] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 12:16:42 -0000 R29vZCBwb2ludCBhbmQgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbi4gSGVyZSBpcyBteSB0aG91Z2h0Og0KSW4gY2FzZSA6 c3RhcnR1cCBjYXBhYmlsaXR5IGlzIHN1cHBvcnRlZCwgdGhlIGZhY3RvcnkgZGF0YXN0b3JlIGNh biBiZSBjb3BpZWQgaW50byA8c3RhcnR1cD4sIHJlc3RhcnQgaXMgbm90IG5lZWRlZCBzaW5jZSB3 ZSBoYXZlIGxvYWRlZCBjb250ZW50IG9mIGZhY3RvcnkgZGF0YXN0b3JlIGludG8gc3RhcnR1cC4g U3RhcnR1cCB3aWxsIGJlIHVwZGF0ZWQgd2l0aCBydW5uaW5nIGVhY2ggdGltZSB0aGUgcnVubmlu ZyBpcyBhbHRlcmVkLiBJbiBjYXNlIG9mIHN5c3RlbSBmYXRhbCBlcnJvciwgd2Ugd2lsbCBjb25z aWRlciBjb3B5IGZhY3Rnb3J5IGRhdGF0b3JlIGludG8gPHN0YXJ0dXA+IGFnYWluIGZvciByZXN0 b3JlLg0KSW4gY2FzZSB0aGUgcmVzdGFydCBpcyBuZWVkZWQgb3IgZGV2aWNlIHBvd2VyIG9uIGlz IG5lZWRlZCwgdGhlIGZhY3RvcnkgZGF0YXN0b3JlIGFzIHNvdXJjZSBtYXkgbm90IGJlIHNldCwg aW5zdGVhZCwgVVJMIGlzIHNldCBhcyBzb3VyY2UsIHRoZSBjb250ZW50IG9mIHNvdXJjZSBpZGVu dGlmaWVkIGJ5IFVSTCBjYW4gYmUgbG9hZGVkIGludG8gdGFyZ2V0IGRhdGFzdG9yZSBkdXJpbmcg cmVzdGFydCBvciBkZXZpY2UgcmVwb3dlciBvbi4gSW4gdGhpcyBjYXNlLCB0aGUgcHJvcG9zZWQg ZmFjdG9yeSBkYXRhc3RvcmUNCmFuZCBuZXcgb3BlcmF0aW9uIGNhbiB3b3JrIHRvZ2V0aGVyIHdp dGggemVybyB0b3VjaCBib290c3RyYXBwaW5nIHByb2NlZHVyZSBwcm9wb3NlZCBpbiBkcmFmdC1p ZXRmLW5ldGNvbmYtemVyb3RvdWNoLg0KDQpJbiBjYXNlIDp3cml0YWJsZS1ydW5uaW5nIGNhcGFi aWxpdHkgaXMgc3VwcG9ydGVkLCB0aGUgZmFjdG9yeSBkYXRhc3RvcmUgY2FuIGJlIGRpcmVjdGx5 IGNvcGllZCBpbnRvIDxydW5uaW5nPiwgaW4gY2FzZSBvZiBtdWx0aXBsZSBjb25jZXB0dWFsIGZs b3dzLCB3ZSBjYW4gY29uc2lkZXIgdG8gY29weSBvbmUgZmFjdG9yeSBkYXRhc3RvcmUgaW50byBt dWx0aXBsZSA8cnVubmluZz4gdGFyZ2V0cy4NCkluIGNhc2UgOmNhbmRpZGF0ZSBjYXBhYmlsaXR5 IGlzIHN1cHBvcnRlZCwgdGhlIGZhY3RvcnkgZGF0YXN0b3JlIGNhbiBiZSBmaXJzdCBjb3BpZWQg aW50byA8Y2FuZGlhdGU+IGFuZCB0aGVuIHRoZSA8Y2FuZGlkYXRlPiBpcyBjb21taXR0ZWQgaW50 byA8cnVubmluZz4sIGluIHRoaXMgY2FzZSwgc3RhcnR1cCBpcyBub3QgdG91Y2hlZC4NCg0KLVFp bg0KLS0tLS3Tyrz+1K28/i0tLS0tDQq3orz+yMs6IEp1ZXJnZW4gU2Nob2Vud2FlbGRlciBbbWFp bHRvOmouc2Nob2Vud2FlbGRlckBqYWNvYnMtdW5pdmVyc2l0eS5kZV0gDQq3osvNyrG85DogMjAx OMTqNtTCMzDI1SAxNzowOA0KytW8/sjLOiBRaW4gV3UNCrOty806IEtlbnQgV2F0c2VuOyBMYWRp c2xhdiBMaG90a2E7IG5ldGNvbmZAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCtb3zOI6IFJlOiBbTmV0Y29uZl0gSS1EIEFj dGlvbjogZHJhZnQtd3UtbmV0Y29uZi1yZXN0Y29uZi1mYWN0b3J5LXJlc3RvcmUtMDAudHh0DQoN Ck9uIFNhdCwgSnVuIDMwLCAyMDE4IGF0IDA3OjA1OjIzQU0gKzAwMDAsIFFpbiBXdSB3cm90ZToN Cg0KPiBPbmUgcG9pbnQgdG8gYWRkLCB3ZSBob3BlIHRvIHN1cHBvcnQgZmFjdG9yeSByZXN0b3Jl IHdpdGhvdXQgDQo+IHJlYm9vdC9yZXN0YXJ0IGFuZCBzdXBwb3J0IGZhY3RvcnkgcmVzdG9yZSB3 aXRoIHJlYm9vdCwgdHdvIGNhc2VzLCANCj4gdGhpcyBtYWtlIGZhY3RvcnkgcmVzdG9yZSBjYW4g YmUgc3VwcG9ydGVkIGluIHRoZSB3aG9sZSBsaWZldGltZSBvZiANCj4gdGhlIGRldmljZS4NCg0K U28gaXMgdGhlIDxmYWN0b3J5PiBkYXRhc3RvcmUgY29uY2VwdHVhbGx5IGNvcGllZCBpbnRvIDxz dGFydHVwPiBhbmQgdGhlbiB5b3UgcmVzdGFydCBvciBpcyB0aGUgdGhlIDxmYWN0b3J5PiBkYXRh c3RvcmUgY29uY2VwdHVhbGx5IGNvcGllZCBpbnRvIDxydW5uaW5nPj8gWWVzLCA8c3RhcnR1cD4g aXMgbm90IG1hbmRhdG9yeSB0byBoYXZlLCBzbyB0aGVyZSBtYXkgYmUgbXVsdGlwbGUgY29uY2Vw dHVhbCBmbG93cyB0aGF0IGFyZSBwb3NzaWJsZS4gSSB0aGluayBpdCB3aWxsIGJlIGhlbHBmdWwg dG8gYmUgY2xlYXIgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGNvbmNlcHR1YWwgZGF0YWZsb3cgYmV0d2VlbiB0aGUgZGF0 YXN0b3JlcyAtIGFuZCBvbmNlIHRoaXMgaXMgY2xlYXIsIGl0IHNob3VsZCBiZSByZWxhdGl2ZWx5 IGVhc3kgdG8gZGVmaW5lIHRoZSBvcGVyYXRpb25zIHRoYXQgYXJlIG5lY2Vzc2FyeS4NCg0KL2pz DQoNCi0tIA0KSnVlcmdlbiBTY2hvZW53YWVsZGVyICAgICAgICAgICBKYWNvYnMgVW5pdmVyc2l0 eSBCcmVtZW4gZ0dtYkgNClBob25lOiArNDkgNDIxIDIwMCAzNTg3ICAgICAgICAgQ2FtcHVzIFJp bmcgMSB8IDI4NzU5IEJyZW1lbiB8IEdlcm1hbnkNCkZheDogICArNDkgNDIxIDIwMCAzMTAzICAg ICAgICAgPGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmphY29icy11bml2ZXJzaXR5LmRlLz4NCg== From nobody Mon Jul 2 05:23:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DCB130F1D for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 05:22:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v7cV9nt_tU-w for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 05:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A42D130F76 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 05:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3D6C422BF24C; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 14:22:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 14:22:54 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Qin Wu Cc: Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180702122254.hrws4cneranwwm3w@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Qin Wu , Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <87a7rfjdcx.fsf@nic.cz> <2A66E046-CE29-42B5-A60C-1313357378DE@juniper.net> <20180630090808.5g232ydinkbsnddg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 12:23:09 -0000 On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 12:16:27PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > Good point and suggestion. Here is my thought: > In case :startup capability is supported, the factory datastore can be copied into , restart is not needed since we have loaded content of factory datastore into startup. Startup will be updated with running each time the running is altered. In case of system fatal error, we will consider copy factgory datatore into again for restore. I doubt this will work. If you copy to startup> and subsequently to , there is a copy of left in , i.e., the copy of to startup> had no effect. > In case the restart is needed or device power on is needed, the factory datastore as source may not be set, instead, URL is set as source, the content of source identified by URL can be loaded into target datastore during restart or device repower on. In this case, the proposed factory datastore > and new operation can work together with zero touch bootstrapping procedure proposed in draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch. URLs are an optional capability so far and I do not know what "URL is set as source" means to me. What is target datastore here? I am not sure how data flows. > In case :writable-running capability is supported, the factory datastore can be directly copied into , in case of multiple conceptual flows, we can consider to copy one factory datastore into multiple targets. > In case :candidate capability is supported, the factory datastore can be first copied into and then the is committed into , in this case, startup is not touched. What are multiple targets? What are "multiple conceptual flows"? I am confused. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Jul 2 06:57:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5A3130E09 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 06:57:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6wmaP46zjP6i for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 06:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AA5D130E01 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 06:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 40ED0E4FEA7C; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 14:57:02 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 14:57:03 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.193]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 21:56:55 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUDgohYkKCob3+QEeCTKJnrpl8VqR0/o0ggAAY6ACAAV+F8IAAiDSAgAEcNQCAAEg30P//ne4AgAO4TyD//6LGAIAAoGCl Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 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=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Juergen Schoenwaelder
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Qin Wu<bill.wu@huawei.com>
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA Kent Watsen<kwatsen@juniper.net>;Ladislav Lhotka<lhotka@nic.cz>;netconf<netconf@ietf.org>
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-r= estconf-factory-restore-00.txt
=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2018-07-02 20:23:06

On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 12:16:27PM +0000, Qin = Wu wrote:
> Good point and suggestion. Here is my thought:
> In case :startup capability is supported, the factory datastore can be= copied into <startup>, restart is not needed since we have loaded co= ntent of factory datastore into startup. Startup will be updated with runni= ng each time the running is altered. In case of system fatal error, we will consider copy factgory datatore into <st= artup> again for restore.

I doubt this will work. If you copy <factory> to startup> and
subsequently <running> to <startup>, there is a copy of <run= ning> left
in <startup>, i.e., the copy of <factory> to startup> had no= effect.
[Qin] To address this issue, we can introduce mult= iple target data sores in the new operation factory restore operation, copy= factory datastore to startup and running in one operation, the source will= be set to the same factory datastore.

> In case the restart is needed or device power on is needed, the factor= y datastore as source may not be set, instead, URL is set as source, the co= ntent of source identified by URL can be loaded into target datastore durin= g restart or device repower on. In this case, the proposed factory datastore
> and new operation can work together with zero touch bootstrapping proc= edure proposed in draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch.

URLs are an optional capability so far and I do not know what "URL is<= br> set as source" means to me. What is target datastore here? I am not sure how data flows.
[Qin] see device power on procedure defined in zer= o touch netconf WG draft, factory restore scheme, in my opinion can be inte= grated into it. The target datastore(s) can be set to any datasore(s) you w= ant to return factory default.

> In case :writable-running capability is supported, the factory datasto= re can be directly copied into <running>, in case of multiple concept= ual flows, we can consider to copy one factory datastore into multiple <= running> targets.
> In case :candidate capability is supported, the factory datastore can = be first copied into <candiate> and then the <candidate> is com= mitted into <running>, in this case, startup is not touched.

What are multiple <running> targets? What are "multiple conceptu= al flows"?
I am confused.
[Qin] see above, in the above cases,multiple datasores can be set to <st= artup> and <running> And all other datastore that need to set to f= actory default. That means in the new operation, multiple target list can b= e included. If multiple factory defaults are allowed,multiple sources can be included as well.

Not sure multiple target running case exists,if we= can copy one source to multiple instances distributed in multiple logical = network elements, that will be great.
/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax: +49 421 200 3103 <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEBF04Fnkgeml513mbxchi_-- From nobody Mon Jul 2 07:02:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9CB130E01 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 07:02:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zp8c292Mj0_L for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 07:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B701130F81 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 07:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id EEAD222BFDDD; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:01:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:01:56 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Qin Wu Cc: Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , netconf Message-ID: <20180702140156.m7mlohgzzfe3nr4l@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Qin Wu , Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , netconf References: <87a7rfjdcx.fsf@nic.cz> <2A66E046-CE29-42B5-A60C-1313357378DE@juniper.net> <20180630090808.5g232ydinkbsnddg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702122254.hrws4cneranwwm3w@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 14:02:07 -0000 I suggest to try to make the proposal simpler, not more complex. /js On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 01:56:54PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > > > > 发件人： Juergen Schoenwaelder > 收件人： Qin Wu> > 抄送： Kent Watsen>;Ladislav Lhotka>;netconf> > 主题： Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt > 时间： 2018-07-02 20:23:06 > > On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 12:16:27PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > > Good point and suggestion. Here is my thought: > > In case :startup capability is supported, the factory datastore can be copied into , restart is not needed since we have loaded content of factory datastore into startup. Startup will be updated with running each time the running is altered. In case of system fatal error, we will consider copy factgory datatore into again for restore. > > I doubt this will work. If you copy to startup> and > subsequently to , there is a copy of left > in , i.e., the copy of to startup> had no effect. > [Qin] To address this issue, we can introduce multiple target data sores in the new operation factory restore operation, copy factory datastore to startup and running in one operation, the source will be set to the same factory datastore. > > > In case the restart is needed or device power on is needed, the factory datastore as source may not be set, instead, URL is set as source, the content of source identified by URL can be loaded into target datastore during restart or device repower on. In this case, the proposed factory datastore > > and new operation can work together with zero touch bootstrapping procedure proposed in draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch. > > URLs are an optional capability so far and I do not know what "URL is > set as source" means to me. What is target datastore here? I am not > sure how data flows. > [Qin] see device power on procedure defined in zero touch netconf WG draft, factory restore scheme, in my opinion can be integrated into it. The target datastore(s) can be set to any datasore(s) you want to return factory default. > > > In case :writable-running capability is supported, the factory datastore can be directly copied into , in case of multiple conceptual flows, we can consider to copy one factory datastore into multiple targets. > > In case :candidate capability is supported, the factory datastore can be first copied into and then the is committed into , in this case, startup is not touched. > > What are multiple targets? What are "multiple conceptual flows"? > I am confused. > [Qin] see above, in the above cases,multiple datasores can be set to and And all other datastore that need to set to factory default. That means in the new operation, multiple target list can be included. If multiple factory defaults are allowed,multiple sources can be included as well. > > Not sure multiple target running case exists,if we can copy one source to multiple instances distributed in multiple logical network elements, that will be great. > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Jul 2 08:01:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCBE81274D0; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:01:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Only the module set(s) associated with a > particular software version would expect to be used. This hypothetical > example is from the YANG versioning work, and may or may not become a > recommendation depending on how that work pans out ... > > (iii) Sometimes vendors want to split their software up into separate > packages, and module sets could be used to represent these different > packages (e.g. core, vs L2VPN, vs L3VPN, vs Subscribers, etc). > > (iv) Sometimes devices need to support different schemas at the same > time (e.g. The IETF ecosystem, vs OpenConfig ecosystem, vs vendor native > ecosystem). Again, this is another case where module sets may be useful > to differentiate between the different groups. > > Of course, if a server is very simple, and none of the above applies, > then it could choose to have just a single module set. > > Does that help clarify their potential usage? Robert, Juergen Yes; in which case, I suggest adding a line to that effect. NEW s.3 after "... (and their submodules) used only for imports." The assignment of a module to a module-set is at the user's discretion. YANG library attaches no semantics as to which module-set a module is listed in. Tom Petch > Thanks, > Rob > > > On 02/07/2018 11:32, t.petch wrote: > > One aspect of this leaves me puzzled; what is a module set? > > > > Yes, I see that a data store schema is made up of module sets, which are > > made up of modules, but given, say, 40 modules, what criteria decide > > whether this is one set of 40, two of 20, half a dozen of varying size > > or what? > > > > Tom Petch > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "The IESG" > > To: "IETF-Announce" > > Cc: ; ; > > ; ; > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 5:22 PM > > > >> The IESG has received a request from the Network Configuration WG > > (netconf) > >> to consider the following document: - 'YANG Library' > >> as Proposed Standard > >> > >> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits > > final > >> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the > >> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-06-28. Exceptionally, comments may > > be > >> sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the > > beginning of > >> the Subject line to allow automated sorting. > >> > >> Abstract > >> > >> > >> This document describes a YANG library that provides information > >> about the YANG modules, datastores, and datastore schemas used by a > >> network management server. Simple caching mechanisms are provided > > to > >> allow clients to minimize retrieval of this information. This > >> version of the YANG library supports the Network Management > > Datastore > >> Architecture by listing all datastores supported by a network > >> management server and the schema that is used by each of these > >> datastores. > >> > >> This document obsoletes RFC 7895. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> The file can be obtained via > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ > >> > >> IESG discussion can be tracked via > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ballot/ > >> > >> > >> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. > >> > >> > >> > >> > > . > > > From nobody Mon Jul 2 08:10:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E851310FA; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:10:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YuTyIjTuDKdi; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B6931310FF; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4475; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530544226; x=1531753826; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Zk/T1NOagunkCX+/6ratv2/D1iMFa+kNxvAHemUpm3g=; b=K5ceHd9ho00Ekqg2Pg8iY8VM0HDwkdT/5gpUuWypHM8/1ffH3p2BVc8y BHATHJjYgUQxVlh7b83+Ut7DLZDlVDGm3EuVEyxVVIJLnMgLLaP13c3Vd lS1VrnFBsFZNjTX5xvjAPPM2wHo4Z5Sg/esHR9KA3m3MNx0ziXfYCi5tV o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CgAQDpPjpb/xbLJq1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYQrbRIog3mIY408KogujHaBegsjgVSCdQKDUzYWAQIBAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQJtHAyFNgEBAQECASMVNgsMBAsSAwECAgImAgIhKA4GAQwGAgEBgxwBgWc?= =?us-ascii?q?DDQgPp2aCHIRbgjYNgS6BKQWBC4k4P4EPJ4JoglZCAgMBgUZCglWCVQKNCYw?= =?us-ascii?q?SKwmGBoYMgwUGgUCEDIJGhUOKM0+BM4VSgUgDLoFSMxoIGxWCcAEzgkyISIU?= =?us-ascii?q?/PjCRWwEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,299,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="4864088" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 02 Jul 2018 15:10:24 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w62FANow025388; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:10:24 GMT To: "t.petch" , netconf@ietf.org, "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" Cc: ibagdona@gmail.com, mjethanandani@gmail.com, netconf-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis@ietf.org References: <152899335818.26447.7759890925422555917.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <03ac01d411ef$f7d0cfe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <50d82291-02de-bca3-5384-bc8a8e9e1cb3@cisco.com> <006001d41215$31eb3ba0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <473a14eb-3f38-b538-e597-94bc000b5dbb@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:10:23 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <006001d41215$31eb3ba0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Last Call: (YANG Library) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:10:42 -0000 On 02/07/2018 15:58, t.petch wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Wilton" > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 11:51 AM > > >> Hi Tom, >> >> It is entirely up to the server implementation to decide what modules >> should be put together into a single module set. >> >> Some examples of categories that could be used to group different >> related modules together: >> >> (i) Modules that are common across all datastores, vs modules that are >> only used for particular datastores (e.g. a dynamic datastore). >> >> (ii) Modules for different versions of software could be reported as >> separate module sets. Only the module set(s) associated with a >> particular software version would expect to be used. This hypothetical >> example is from the YANG versioning work, and may or may not become a >> recommendation depending on how that work pans out ... >> >> (iii) Sometimes vendors want to split their software up into separate >> packages, and module sets could be used to represent these different >> packages (e.g. core, vs L2VPN, vs L3VPN, vs Subscribers, etc). >> >> (iv) Sometimes devices need to support different schemas at the same >> time (e.g. The IETF ecosystem, vs OpenConfig ecosystem, vs vendor > native >> ecosystem). Again, this is another case where module sets may be > useful >> to differentiate between the different groups. >> >> Of course, if a server is very simple, and none of the above applies, >> then it could choose to have just a single module set. >> >> Does that help clarify their potential usage? > Robert, Juergen > > Yes; in which case, I suggest adding a line to that effect. > > NEW s.3 after "... (and their submodules) used only for imports." > > The assignment of a module to a module-set is at the user's discretion. > YANG library attaches no semantics as to which module-set a module is > listed in. I don't mind us adding this text, except that I would replace "user's" with "server's". Juergen? Thanks, Rob > > Tom Petch > > > >> Thanks, >> Rob >> >> >> On 02/07/2018 11:32, t.petch wrote: >>> One aspect of this leaves me puzzled; what is a module set? >>> >>> Yes, I see that a data store schema is made up of module sets, which > are >>> made up of modules, but given, say, 40 modules, what criteria decide >>> whether this is one set of 40, two of 20, half a dozen of varying > size >>> or what? >>> >>> Tom Petch >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "The IESG" >>> To: "IETF-Announce" >>> Cc: ; ; >>> ; ; >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 5:22 PM >>> >>>> The IESG has received a request from the Network Configuration WG >>> (netconf) >>>> to consider the following document: - 'YANG Library' >>>> as Proposed Standard >>>> >>>> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and > solicits >>> final >>>> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the >>>> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-06-28. Exceptionally, comments > may >>> be >>>> sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the >>> beginning of >>>> the Subject line to allow automated sorting. >>>> >>>> Abstract >>>> >>>> >>>> This document describes a YANG library that provides > information >>>> about the YANG modules, datastores, and datastore schemas used > by a >>>> network management server. Simple caching mechanisms are > provided >>> to >>>> allow clients to minimize retrieval of this information. This >>>> version of the YANG library supports the Network Management >>> Datastore >>>> Architecture by listing all datastores supported by a network >>>> management server and the schema that is used by each of these >>>> datastores. >>>> >>>> This document obsoletes RFC 7895. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The file can be obtained via >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ >>>> >>>> IESG discussion can be tracked via >>>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ballot/ >>>> >>>> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> . >>> > . > From nobody Mon Jul 2 08:16:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 761BA1310FF for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:16:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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A single structure would be easier. In this case it could be placed in its own module, with its own root, as the subscribed modifications or yang-push models  do not have a container that would be convenient to augment. This does not seem to belong either to streams, filters or subscriptions which are the 3 top level containers. regards Balazs On 6/19/2018 10:26 AM, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > Hi, > > Balazs Lengyel wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I submitted a new version of the >> draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities updated with comments >> from the last IETF and others. I would like to get this adopted as a >> workgroup item. Please review it and if you like it, please indicate >> that you support it as a workgroup item. >> >> Changes: >> o Augment only the new yanglib branch > The model you propose has the structure: > > augment /yanglib:yang-library/yanglib:module-set/yanglib:module: > +--ro notification-sent-for-config-default? boolean > +--ro notification-sent-for-state-default? boolean > +--ro on-change-notification-capability* [data-node-selector] > +--ro data-node-selector nacm:node-instance-identifier > +--ro on-change-notification-sent? boolean > > (NOTE: the tree diagram in the draft doesn't match the data model.) > > So there is one "on-change-notification-capability" list per *module* > in a module-set. > > This seems quite complex for a client to digest. It is not clear how > the "data-node-selector" relates to the "module". It probably works > fine when a module is completely self-contained with no augments, and > no other module that augements it, but it gets complicated with > augemnts. > > Wouldn't it be better to have a single structure per datastore? > > > /martin > > > > > > >> o Correct the conditions for notifying about state data >> o Corrections, clarifications >> >> regards Balazs >> >> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >> >> Subject: New Version Notification for >> draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities-01.txt >> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 01:57:58 -0700 >> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> To: Alexander Clemm , Balazs Lengyel >> >> >> A new version of I-D, draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities-01.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Balazs Lengyel and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> >> Name: draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities >> Revision: 01 >> Title: YangPush Notification Capabilities >> Document date: 2018-06-13 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 10 >> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities-01.txt >> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities/ >> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities-01 >> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities >> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities-01 >> >> Abstract: >> This document proposes a YANG module that allows a YANG server to >> specify for which data nodes it will send "YANG Datastore >> Subscription" on-change notifications. It also proposes to use YANG >> Instance Data to document this information in implementation time. >> >> >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> The IETF Secretariat >> >> -- >> Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. >> Senior Specialist >> Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com -- Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. Senior Specialist Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com From nobody Mon Jul 2 08:19:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B08F131208; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:19:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yrb-2j6SfCDc; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E71C1311DD; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id DC3C322C00F8; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 17:18:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 17:18:52 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Robert Wilton Cc: "t.petch" , netconf@ietf.org, ibagdona@gmail.com, mjethanandani@gmail.com, netconf-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180702151852.wzd4uy4tql6amy7u@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Robert Wilton , "t.petch" , netconf@ietf.org, ibagdona@gmail.com, mjethanandani@gmail.com, netconf-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis@ietf.org References: <152899335818.26447.7759890925422555917.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <03ac01d411ef$f7d0cfe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <50d82291-02de-bca3-5384-bc8a8e9e1cb3@cisco.com> <006001d41215$31eb3ba0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <473a14eb-3f38-b538-e597-94bc000b5dbb@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <473a14eb-3f38-b538-e597-94bc000b5dbb@cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Last Call: (YANG Library) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:19:16 -0000 On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 04:10:23PM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote: > > On 02/07/2018 15:58, t.petch wrote: > > Robert, Juergen > > > > Yes; in which case, I suggest adding a line to that effect. > > > > NEW s.3 after "... (and their submodules) used only for imports." > > > > The assignment of a module to a module-set is at the user's discretion. > > YANG library attaches no semantics as to which module-set a module is > > listed in. > > I don't mind us adding this text, except that I would replace "user's" with > "server's". Yes, its at the server's discretion and I do not mind to spell this out. But once we gain more experience and/or create additional standards, we may in the future be more specific. Perhaps be specific that at this point in time, this is entirely the server's choice? The assignment of a module to a module-set is at the server's discretion. This revision of the YANG library attaches no semantics as to which module-set a module is listed in. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Jul 2 08:32:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3638131217; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:32:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Bjd5Df6jjHq; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D346B131212; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:32:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1152; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530545530; x=1531755130; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZhqMZu2A60XdljqpIYkBXD52X/TOiv3QXCvhGEdo3jI=; b=YpyhUVAvA84J3bNy6SmHvr9rj57e8+4Q/mV/qRKkMkuGbKAmHsuVEBAb 9pSQxOxDdYIGCt30dGl2EtAk+bfc+grYitPzC0fBhmGRM85acnjz4cy3a b0kOzuQF5w5ZUYU9PS+ls+IbKqprlVYKocLFR05BDLVipRF3SZ508s6iU c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CeAQAQRTpb/xbLJq1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYUYEoQhiGONPAgilx4LhGwCg1M4FAECAQECAQECbSiFNgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQECASMVNAoICwsYAgImAgJXBgEMCAEBgxyBeAineYIchFuDcYEugQuJOD+?= =?us-ascii?q?BNgyCXIRkgxeCVQKNCYw9CY8XBgKIEIVDjDWFUoFYIYFSMxoIGxWDJYJLjgc?= =?us-ascii?q?+kgsBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,299,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="4924247" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 02 Jul 2018 15:31:57 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w62FVvic022361; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:31:57 GMT To: "t.petch" , netconf@ietf.org, ibagdona@gmail.com, mjethanandani@gmail.com, netconf-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis@ietf.org References: <152899335818.26447.7759890925422555917.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <03ac01d411ef$f7d0cfe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <50d82291-02de-bca3-5384-bc8a8e9e1cb3@cisco.com> <006001d41215$31eb3ba0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <473a14eb-3f38-b538-e597-94bc000b5dbb@cisco.com> <20180702151852.wzd4uy4tql6amy7u@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <61214966-533b-03a3-a296-95eb14381266@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:31:57 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180702151852.wzd4uy4tql6amy7u@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Last Call: (YANG Library) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:32:26 -0000 On 02/07/2018 16:18, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 04:10:23PM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote: >> On 02/07/2018 15:58, t.petch wrote: >>> Robert, Juergen >>> >>> Yes; in which case, I suggest adding a line to that effect. >>> >>> NEW s.3 after "... (and their submodules) used only for imports." >>> >>> The assignment of a module to a module-set is at the user's discretion. >>> YANG library attaches no semantics as to which module-set a module is >>> listed in. >> I don't mind us adding this text, except that I would replace "user's" with >> "server's". > Yes, its at the server's discretion and I do not mind to spell this > out. But once we gain more experience and/or create additional > standards, we may in the future be more specific. Agreed. > Perhaps be specific > that at this point in time, this is entirely the server's choice? Yes, I agree. > > The assignment of a module to a module-set is at the server's discretion. > This revision of the YANG library attaches no semantics as to which > module-set a module is listed in. Works for me. Thanks, Rob > > /js > From nobody Mon Jul 2 09:00:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 929D01311D3; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:00:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DLt3sGo5cYtz; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr40094.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.4.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 938C513122F; 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HE1PR07MB0826; 6:aIW2QBWKDveIJdYuOG1Sq/giyi9rBWpB4qwey/XxCMWn+uLbrdFPoQQ/zxrcru3LZIcSNgTIDAeiJipzyNF00zQYJqa0CdkoYurB4caBggnkYIISLar70rWbrrjHB47XaEn3rjdDt3dwN+XAm1ETrcZxdNp9WlPnvSsqud61JHfyZvB+pgNgxx7MwZR/eeyOrCxIF90NwUdfVlYbOaGNeiBU3rdNJMewmw8hl1QxG8SrLEVDOUBll7i2hrhfY67zeF9QD/wORjzhF4dLRmbbNKzH6HXYnacu3mUvF2QpRu4gNLytxag8iwz+QaV4R3YlLrsTFrQqacDciFuk43hToipuge8BR/qjGthOcOe4uEOGLEM5UOMGOlsMt/7xdqIwifSmS6n6TVIdPZnNCfhwuccVYiTrVJkFCMu9NiUn9qG0HgPGac8DLI+WBRXwhBohufHz7NWKUCaurVsSNAVsRg==; 5:uawxOf/3bhLs1APrfTT84gy2DVZlELKyO8mGaTVB46mdVH51CxtSW8p1R8Cem8m3JBG6Piwii9qmaSGORtGRoc3d1qVnzwd6hkD1+E0Rz4oQq2NjECpUutJx/VmcStiZHXFfWdUDYNGqEGNW/89Zq+JzoLXGd1jBt4l+sSlWe+E=; 24:7wP0LihWCAFO30SNc7RdU1eY0krRk8KkUcBibcUAxnZuuY9T7SFz2cPwysoal3N7E98I73iFJ2R3PyjxpbhTC9EJg/OrY7Yn3vtRk6ukBEk= SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:99 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; HE1PR07MB0826; 7:z2jP5AgQoPS4M+1yKM0rjg1pkjvge0rV2TSkQ16HmG5GjhKxry60J1aJayy8eoCFh9GFOoywPWWEew1Qx7grs+9rvpGJifrlgm3KtcFgCZcW9T7bbAbrj7TZSJ1F4eVdYBaH8waaLck+ziUcRlb0fJ1DRj9MwottADJ2YqquGGWfH/lopppfJNz04PxqBg1NKDSNk9xSdCsiEzt8G4upqeFhsLVcPjeOy6tWbopTpcObogDaZFgugNrg9qeIveqV X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jul 2018 15:59:53.7408 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d9baf9a5-605a-4428-02e8-08d5e034da03 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR07MB0826 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Last Call: (YANG Library) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 16:00:24 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Wilton" Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 4:31 PM > On 02/07/2018 16:18, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 04:10:23PM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote: > >> On 02/07/2018 15:58, t.petch wrote: > >>> Robert, Juergen > >>> > >>> Yes; in which case, I suggest adding a line to that effect. > >>> > >>> NEW s.3 after "... (and their submodules) used only for imports." > >>> > >>> The assignment of a module to a module-set is at the user's discretion. > >>> YANG library attaches no semantics as to which module-set a module is > >>> listed in. > >> I don't mind us adding this text, except that I would replace "user's" with > >> "server's". > > Yes, its at the server's discretion and I do not mind to spell this > > out. But once we gain more experience and/or create additional > > standards, we may in the future be more specific. > Agreed. > > > Perhaps be specific > > that at this point in time, this is entirely the server's choice? > Yes, I agree. > > > > > The assignment of a module to a module-set is at the server's discretion. > > This revision of the YANG library attaches no semantics as to which > > module-set a module is listed in. > Works for me. And me too Tom Petch > Thanks, > Rob > > > /js From nobody Mon Jul 2 09:07:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76609130ECA; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:07:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eQmlHO3nzCcZ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D50C0130934; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:07:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1521; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530547668; x=1531757268; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BZvWYEH8Kl3aO10Z+WRf7sjshWaxP/7dalgKX9vOFJo=; b=GWZ6LmBi6CS3/UndD1HKJ6nLS8gmxOGYTiJCMyZWzORtgCzPSzVFSpfn WDsEZLPv9bE2ucYjI6yZgzX6+895Vxyy/JxWTXs2rQsIPJvbIabuIf7pF /+j9nlEPkr6kW29CcoJjat8v2O8OezcLATbrwpzyuQnoKiGxqc3iQVnAn w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CeAQBxTTpb/xbLJq1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYUYEiiDeYhjjTwqlx4LhGwCg1U3FQECAQECAQECbSiFNgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQECASMVNAoPBAsVAQICAiYCAlcGAQwGAgEBgxyBeAioCoIchFuDcYEugQu?= =?us-ascii?q?JOD+BNoJohGSDF4JVAo0JjD0JjxcGiBKFQ4w1hVKBVyKBUjMaCBsVgySCTI4?= =?us-ascii?q?HPjCRWwEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,299,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="4924775" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 02 Jul 2018 16:07:46 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w62G7jJc009269; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:07:45 GMT To: "t.petch" , netconf@ietf.org, ibagdona@gmail.com, mjethanandani@gmail.com, netconf-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis@ietf.org References: <152899335818.26447.7759890925422555917.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <03ac01d411ef$f7d0cfe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <50d82291-02de-bca3-5384-bc8a8e9e1cb3@cisco.com> <006001d41215$31eb3ba0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <473a14eb-3f38-b538-e597-94bc000b5dbb@cisco.com> <20180702151852.wzd4uy4tql6amy7u@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <61214966-533b-03a3-a296-95eb14381266@cisco.com> <025001d4121d$61750ec0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 17:07:45 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <025001d4121d$61750ec0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Last Call: (YANG Library) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 16:07:57 -0000 On 02/07/2018 16:57, t.petch wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Wilton" > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 4:31 PM > >> On 02/07/2018 16:18, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: >>> On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 04:10:23PM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote: >>>> On 02/07/2018 15:58, t.petch wrote: >>>>> Robert, Juergen >>>>> >>>>> Yes; in which case, I suggest adding a line to that effect. >>>>> >>>>> NEW s.3 after "... (and their submodules) used only for imports." >>>>> >>>>> The assignment of a module to a module-set is at the user's > discretion. >>>>> YANG library attaches no semantics as to which module-set a module > is >>>>> listed in. >>>> I don't mind us adding this text, except that I would replace > "user's" with >>>> "server's". >>> Yes, its at the server's discretion and I do not mind to spell this >>> out. But once we gain more experience and/or create additional >>> standards, we may in the future be more specific. >> Agreed. >> >>> Perhaps be specific >>> that at this point in time, this is entirely the server's choice? >> Yes, I agree. >> >>> The assignment of a module to a module-set is at the server's > discretion. >>> This revision of the YANG library attaches no semantics as to > which >>> module-set a module is listed in. >> Works for me. > And me too I've updated the github copy. Tom, thanks for the review comment and suggestion. Rob > > Tom Petch > >> Thanks, >> Rob >> >>> /js > . > From nobody Mon Jul 2 09:09:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19ED13122F for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:09:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 38z9M-xQOSGd for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84B22131221 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id u6-v6so12944353lju.13 for ; Mon, 02 Jul 2018 09:08:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=lcuzchBAecx1QcR/dCE8f35FDzVXXWJF2jXnTwYDrFU=; b=zBIC/3U3vTSHtgm2WbVCTJWohl3lF8qKQf2d2rQQkwsRGB4NehlplKZ4F3qRbBBMG3 vs+AeZ5whta9Y0z+ZSn+Lj+U2hmLMGKQbhbACPOMavPW4bfIbqFWaGg/h9EevHpxkG8y n2ufjWRw+iswRGaL6BWQLWl4G64mn+bHnC2MILKeKjUP3WEQQswpZ5ijBdOAI12cMC+A Trc2VGHHBghgDj11XZ/s1ucyCN01xqwRvY/gBiEtaCwEP6g0GuA/xO8wVQT/gHvMpRmf V7coikxhuy18Z5m5Ggm9q1bcfJLtYMXGBEjlOr2b/j24ajzii2tuo0ljQ9Wac6skvkvX JVzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=lcuzchBAecx1QcR/dCE8f35FDzVXXWJF2jXnTwYDrFU=; b=I31mlkC2u09mTCqFsPhEVTrMFXG+sGIwNBwfqf40ddBvcyh2P/l1SBXxr2sBEXHHbD UD4hexxm0Xe4rTM6dWCIB6yBxZh8luxiX4nOxphEOeXrbto8q98V+QofPFeTvbDSwT3b ZXy+UxHHhyL1R14owUlaGATk+DUJaCYtdMgqlb5WLk2VUGt+WFgB+6o2Zgf3+pYbdaDP fl/Leit4e/WDMiwBWO/6J7G177PG27Q90s+G0tMaw8fM9A8qDy1yoK/5CDz0SLWhDQPl kCVmUI7ewji9ZZgmDxBjTVPHufAfIdwZXezLPOxuhObT2mZztR61aPX/bNKOB+6QjgOU +RMA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E13dbT6Benqcxok0DyLpxjAfekJ1b1Qeeuovl7cPOiKzIiS7YEj zfKORbQ3ruSodjK6/qhRt/xeP9g7BXK0MM3UV+mYwQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpesG4fvOOaN/skHXPCyGzWNQMgaleZyLPvbQzYsoXAEhyAZsIt6pi4Uu2zwxKEZZ0Gjw2O1eXLWKMlqQXZ9Oi8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:21c7:: with SMTP id h68-v6mr16637188lji.108.1530547732719; Mon, 02 Jul 2018 09:08:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:db96:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:08:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180702140156.m7mlohgzzfe3nr4l@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <87a7rfjdcx.fsf@nic.cz> <2A66E046-CE29-42B5-A60C-1313357378DE@juniper.net> <20180630090808.5g232ydinkbsnddg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702122254.hrws4cneranwwm3w@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702140156.m7mlohgzzfe3nr4l@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:08:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Qin Wu , Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ebd2030570066939" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 16:09:12 -0000 --000000000000ebd2030570066939 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > I suggest to try to make the proposal simpler, not more complex. > > +1 IMO the only thing needed is 1 simple identity named "factory". Existing protocol operations can be used (e.g, copy-config from factory to running) /js > Andy > > On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 01:56:54PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > > > > > > > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Juergen Schoenwaelder > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Qin Wu> > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A Kent Watsen>;Ladislav > Lhotka>;netconf > > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-= restconf- > factory-restore-00.txt > > =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2018-07-02 20:23:06 > > > > On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 12:16:27PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > > > Good point and suggestion. Here is my thought: > > > In case :startup capability is supported, the factory datastore can b= e > copied into , restart is not needed since we have loaded content > of factory datastore into startup. Startup will be updated with running > each time the running is altered. In case of system fatal error, we will > consider copy factgory datatore into again for restore. > > > > I doubt this will work. If you copy to startup> and > > subsequently to , there is a copy of left > > in , i.e., the copy of to startup> had no effect. > > [Qin] To address this issue, we can introduce multiple target data sore= s > in the new operation factory restore operation, copy factory datastore to > startup and running in one operation, the source will be set to the same > factory datastore. > > > > > In case the restart is needed or device power on is needed, the > factory datastore as source may not be set, instead, URL is set as source= , > the content of source identified by URL can be loaded into target datasto= re > during restart or device repower on. In this case, the proposed factory > datastore > > > and new operation can work together with zero touch bootstrapping > procedure proposed in draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch. > > > > URLs are an optional capability so far and I do not know what "URL is > > set as source" means to me. What is target datastore here? I am not > > sure how data flows. > > [Qin] see device power on procedure defined in zero touch netconf WG > draft, factory restore scheme, in my opinion can be integrated into it. T= he > target datastore(s) can be set to any datasore(s) you want to return > factory default. > > > > > In case :writable-running capability is supported, the factory > datastore can be directly copied into , in case of multiple > conceptual flows, we can consider to copy one factory datastore into > multiple targets. > > > In case :candidate capability is supported, the factory datastore can > be first copied into and then the is committed int= o > , in this case, startup is not touched. > > > > What are multiple targets? What are "multiple conceptual > flows"? > > I am confused. > > [Qin] see above, in the above cases,multiple datasores can be set to > and And all other datastore that need to set to facto= ry > default. That means in the new operation, multiple target list can be > included. If multiple factory defaults are allowed,multiple sources can b= e > included as well. > > > > Not sure multiple target running case exists,if we can copy one source > to multiple instances distributed in multiple logical network elements, > that will be great. > > /js > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --000000000000ebd2030570066939 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
I suggest to try to make the proposal simpler, not mo= re complex.



+1

=
IMO the only thing needed is 1 simple identity named "factory&quo= t;.
Existing protocol operations can be used (e.g, copy-config fr= om factory to running)


/js

Andy
=C2=A0

On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 01:56:54PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote:
>
>
>
> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Juergen Schoenwaelder
> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Qin Wu<bill.wu@huawei.com<mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com>>
> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A Kent Watsen<kwatsen@juniper.net<mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net>>;Ladislav Lhotka<lhotka@nic.cz<mailto:lhotka@nic.cz>>;netconf<netconf@ietf.org<mailto:netconf@ietf.org>>
> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf= -restconf-factory-restore-00.txt
> =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2018-07-02 20:23:06
>
> On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 12:16:27PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote:
> > Good point and suggestion. Here is my thought:
> > In case :startup capability is supported, the factory datastore c= an be copied into <startup>, restart is not needed since we have load= ed content of factory datastore into startup. Startup will be updated with = running each time the running is altered. In case of system fatal error, we= will consider copy factgory datatore into <startup> again for restor= e.
>
> I doubt this will work. If you copy <factory> to startup> and=
> subsequently <running> to <startup>, there is a copy of &l= t;running> left
> in <startup>, i.e., the copy of <factory> to startup> h= ad no effect.
> [Qin] To address this issue, we can introduce multiple target data sor= es in the new operation factory restore operation, copy factory datastore t= o startup and running in one operation, the source will be set to the same = factory datastore.
>
> > In case the restart is needed or device power on is needed, the f= actory datastore as source may not be set, instead, URL is set as source, t= he content of source identified by URL can be loaded into target datastore = during restart or device repower on. In this case, the proposed factory dat= astore
> > and new operation can work together with zero touch bootstrapping= procedure proposed in draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch.
>
> URLs are an optional capability so far and I do not know what "UR= L is
> set as source" means to me. What is target datastore here? I am n= ot
> sure how data flows.
> [Qin] see device power on procedure defined in zero touch netconf WG d= raft, factory restore scheme, in my opinion can be integrated into it. The = target datastore(s) can be set to any datasore(s) you want to return factor= y default.
>
> > In case :writable-running capability is supported, the factory da= tastore can be directly copied into <running>, in case of multiple co= nceptual flows, we can consider to copy one factory datastore into multiple= <running> targets.
> > In case :candidate capability is supported, the factory datastore= can be first copied into <candiate> and then the <candidate> i= s committed into <running>, in this case, startup is not touched.
>
> What are multiple <running> targets? What are "multiple con= ceptual flows"?
> I am confused.
> [Qin] see above, in the above cases,multiple datasores can be set to &= lt;startup> and <running> And all other datastore that need to set= to factory default. That means in the new operation, multiple target list = can be included. If multiple factory defaults are allowed,multiple sources = can be included as well.
>
> Not sure multiple target running case exists,if we can copy one source= to multiple instances distributed in multiple logical network elements, th= at will be great.
> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 <https://www.jacobs-university.d= e/>

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

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02 Jul 2018 16:09:22 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w62G9LcK026609 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:09:22 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 12:09:21 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 12:09:21 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Martin Bjorklund CC: "kwatsen@juniper.net" , "netconf@ietf.org" , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "alex@clemm.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] IETF 101 SN Question 1: Proper designation of receiver Thread-Index: AQHT7qZjKKPiRp7oL0Gw54ItH09w2qQ1f5yAgABaRoCAAFIXAP//0cbAgCYz3oCAALf2gIALzo6AgACF3OCAAIGQgP//v4TQgAHRv4D//78WkABEsRYAAAapTSAAjo35gAAIQuKQABHb3oAACd63QAAMMw8AAAhG1QD//9cTgIAAL8jQgAPD2AD/+w/egA== Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:09:20 +0000 Message-ID: <449678cf28c144bb8ef0e96c8e9e33c6@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <01cdb70696e84d7387e1ef7c72d65fc7@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180626.221311.93904112711512999.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180629.103356.2106784004576964601.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: <20180629.103356.2106784004576964601.mbj@tail-f.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] IETF 101 SN Question 1: Proper designation of receiver X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 16:09:35 -0000 Hi Martin, > From: Martin Bjorklund, June 29, 2018 4:34 AM >=20 > Hi, >=20 >=20 > "Eric Voit (evoit)" wrote: > > > From: Martin Bjorklund, June 26, 2018 4:13 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] IETF 101 SN Question 1: Proper designation of > > > receiver > > > > > > "Eric Voit (evoit)" wrote: > > > > > From: Martin Bjorklund, June 26, 2018 2:43 PM > > > > > > > > > > "Eric Voit (evoit)" wrote: > > > > > > > From: Martin Bjorklund, June 26, 2018 4:11 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Eric Voit (evoit)" wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Kent Watsen, June 25, 2018 3:43 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Okay, glad to see that you embrace > > > > > > > > > >> >> using ietf-netconf-server, rather than ietf-netconf= -client. > > > > > > > > > >> >> And I'll grant you that it's infinitely more > > > > > > > > > >> >> likely that the ietf-netconf-server module would > > > > > > > > > >> >> be implemented (i.e., the top-level > > > > > > > > > >> >> /ncs:netconf-server container exists), more so > > > > > > > > > >> >> than the ietf-netconf-client module > > > would be implemented. > > > > > > > > > >> >> The WG created the top-level /ncc:netconf- client > > > > > > > > > >> >> container more for the sake of symmetry than for > > > > > > > > > >> >> having a use-case for when it would be > > > > > > > > > >> >> implemented. I think the question to ask is, is > > > > > > > > > >> >> it > > > > > > > > > >> possible that a device wants to use SN but doesn't > > > > > > > > > >> *implement* > > > > > > > > > >> ietf-netconf- server? > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Yes, this will be possible. Reasons would i= nclude: > > > > > > > > > >> >> alternative > > > > > > > > > >> transports > > > > > > > > > >> >> (COMI, UDP), HTTP2 configured subscriptions (which > > > > > > > > > >> >> might use > > > > > > > > > >> >> ietf-restconf- server), or no need for a publisher > > > > > > > > > >> >> to include the configured subscriptions feature. > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> I should've be more specific: is it > > > > > > > > > >> >> possible that a device would use netconf-notif > > > > > > > > > >> >> (where your leafref is > > > > > > > > > >> >> defined) but not implement > > > > > > > > > >> ietf-netconf- > > > > > > > > > >> >> server? Similarly, restconf-notif would > > > > > > > > > >> >> presumably have a leafref to > > > > > > > > > >> >> ietf- > > > > > > > > > >> >> restconf-server, etc. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >Yes. Cases would include: > > > > > > > > > >> >(a) platform doesn't support configured > > > > > > > > > >> >subscriptions > > > > > > > > > >> >(b) vendor has not yet implemented > > > > > > > > > >> >ietf-netconf-server, and uses something > > > > > > > > > >> else. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> (a) is this a valid case? - I thought this > > > > > > > > > >> conversion only regards configured subscriptions. No > > > > > > > > > >> leafref or equivalent would be needed to support a dyn= amic > subscription. > > > Right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct. But your question was "can you use > > > > > > > > > > netconf-notif without a leafref > > > > > > > > > to...". > > > > > > > > > > Needing both drafts is absolutely the case for dynamic > > > > > > > > > > subscription support, and ietf-netconf-server would > > > > > > > > > > not be needed > > > > > here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I read the above a few times, but I'm having a hard time > > > > > > > > > understanding it. Can say it differently or provide an e= xample? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dynamic subscriptions over NETCONF requires > > > > > > > > draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications. With > > > > > > > > these deployments, there there is no call home, there is > > > > > > > > no configuration, and there need be no > > > > > > > > ietf-netconf-server.yang leafref (or use of ietf-netconf-se= rver.yang > grouping). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> (b) this seems like a possibility, but then I think > > > > > > > > > >> this make the case for why a leafref to the global > > > > > > > > > >> *conf servers definitions won't always > > > > > > > > > work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agree that nothing here will always work. Deployments > > > > > > > > > > commonly will have a heterogeneous mixture of model > > > > > > > > > > ecosystem > > > > > models. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This actually makes a *very* strong case for why the > > > > > > > > > > leafref should be added as an augmentation from the > > > > > > > > > > *conf-server > > > models. > > > > > > > > > > That way leafref augmentations are explicitly tied to > > > > > > > > > > the actual implementation of the > > > > > > > > > model against which they refer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not in the *conf-server models, the augments go into the > > > > > > > > > *conf-notif models, I assume that is what you meant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My assertion is a good solution would be updating > > > > > > > > ietf-netconf-server.yang per what is below. Note that an > > > > > > > > answer even further below regarding the sharing of a > > > > > > > > single NETCONF session across multiple subscriptions and > > > > > > > > typical > > > > > > > > RFC6241 protocol interactions is assumed. But we could > > > > > > > > also insert your ietf-netconf-server.yang grouping just as > > > > > > > > effectively where the leafref is > > > > > seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway here are the following changes which would be made > > > > > > > > to ietf-netconf-server.yang > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } > > > > > > > > import ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications { prefix > > > > > > > > nsn; } > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > feature subscription-support { > > > > > > > > description > > > > > > > > "The 'subscription-support' feature indicates that > > > > > > > > the NETCONF > > > > > server > > > > > > > > supports configured subscriptions over call-home > > > > > > > > connections."; > > > > > > > > reference > > > > > > > > "RFC xxxx: Customized Subscriptions to a > > > > > > > > Publisher's Event > > > Streams"; > > > > > > > > } > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > augment > > > > > > > > "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receive= r" > > > { > > > > > > > > if-feature "subscription-support"; > > > > > > > > when 'derived-from(../../../transport, "nsn:netconf")'; > > > > > > > > description > > > > > > > > "This augmentation allows NETCONF specific > > > > > > > > parameters to be > > > > > exposed > > > > > > > > for a receiver."; > > > > > > > > leaf netconf-endpoint { > > > > > > > > type leafref { > > > > > > > > path > > > > > > > > "/ncs:netconf-server/ncs:call-home/ncs:netconf- > > > > > client/ncs:name"; > > > > > > > > } > > > > > > > > description > > > > > > > > "Remote client which need to initiate the NETCONF t= ransport > > > > > > > > if > > > an > > > > > > > > existing NETCONF session from that client is not > > > > > > > > available."; > > > > > > > > } > > > > > > > > } > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With such a construct, it is impossible to add a leafref > > > > > > > > (or > > > > > > > > grouping) within ietf-subscribed-notifications unless > > > > > > > > ietf-netconf-server.yang exists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> This is why I > > > > > > > > > >> was thinking before that your modules might > > > > > > > > > >> themselves > > > > > > > > > >> *use* the > > > > > > > > > >> *conf- server-groupings (while pruning out unneeded > > > > > > > > > >> parts, e.g., the "listen" subtree), so that it's > > > > > > > > > >> independent of what the system has implemented at the > > > > > > > > > >> global > > > level. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 500 subscriptions, you then have to > > > > > > > > > > populate > > > > > > > > > > 500 identical > > > > > > > > > groupings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you have one grouping, with 500 > > > > > > > > > /netconf-server/call-home/netconf-client > > > > > > > > > instances. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. But I don't know why someone would voluntarily do > > > > > > > > add > > > > > > > > 500 repeated elements to a configuration datastore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yes this is possible. But it makes the part of > > > > > > > > > > me which likes Normalized data quite uncomfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But as I said before, it the WG wants such redundancy, = fine. > > > > > > > > > > Either choice need not impact decisions as part of LC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't believe that is a WG-preference thing, so much > > > > > > > > > as an outcome of the current design, which is that each > > > > > > > > > receiver for each subscription has its own state-machine > > > > > > > > > and protocol messages. There is no sharing; no two > > > > > > > > > receives can use the same RFC 6241 NETCONF session, > > > > > > > > > which effectively translates to each receiver having its > > > > > > > > > own /netconf-server/call-home/netconf-client > > > > > > > > > instance, > > > > > > > > > right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is incorrect. Protocol and state-machine messages > > > > > > > > have been decoupled from the transport session. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure why you think that subscriptions are unable > > > > > > > > to use a common NETCONF session? Implementations of > > > > > > > > dynamic NETCONF subscriptions have been doing this for year= s. > > > > > > > > Subscription multiplexing of configured and dynamic > > > > > > > > subscriptions over a common transport is a pre-requisite > > > > > > > > for solution > > > scalability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think muliplexing of configured and dynamic > > > > > > > subscriptions over a single session is possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If this is the intention of the current design, the document > > > > > > > needs to explain how this is supposed to be done. > > > > > > > > > > > > What is your concern? > > > > > > > > > > Suppose a client connects to a server and starts a dynamic > > > > > subscription. Can this session somehow be used for a configured > > > subscription? I assume not. > > > > > > > > Why not? > > > > > > How would a server know that a certain configured receiver is the > > > same as an ongoing session? And as a client, suppose I just opened > > > a session to send one request and then I plan to close the sesssion. > > > I probably don't want notifs on this session as well. > > > > This is a valid scenario. And while a fix for the current solution > > would be quite easy to do in text (i.e., through defining expectations > > of client behavior), it is not necessary to force this complexity on > > the client. So instead I propose updating the first paragraph of > > NETCONF-notif, section 6.2 to the following: > > > > "When a configured subscription enters the "valid" state, there is no > > guarantee a usable NETCONF transport session is currently in place > > with each associated receiver. As a result, the first configured > > subscription to a specific receiver MUST establish a NETCONF transport > > session via NETCONF call home [RFC8071] , section 4.1. This transport > > session MUST then be used by additional configured subscriptions > > targeting that the same receiver. This same receiver is identifiable > > on the publisher as one which targets the same address and port used > > to establish the existing NETCONF call home connection. >=20 > This is not enough / correct. You also need to take the user name into > account. Per your other note, I think we are good here. =20 > > This transport > > session MAY also be used by dynamic subscriptions and/or > > non-subscription related NETCONF operations originated by the NETCONF > > client. > > > > Until a "subscription-started" state change notification is > > successfully sent for a configured subscription, that subscription's > > receiver MUST remain in either the "connecting" or the "timeout" > > state." > > > > > > > > > Multiplexing multiple configured subscriptions over a single > > > > > > > transport session could be possible, but the document > > > > > > > doesn't mention > > > > > this. > > > > > > > Again, if this is the intention, it needs to be properly > > > > > > > described in the document. > > > > > > > > > > > > What is missing? The subscribed-notification draft section > > > > > > 2.5.1 and Figure 9 describe how each receiver is pushed their > > > > > > own state notifications. (I.e., the state machine is > > > > > > per-receiver. It is not per-subscription, nor is it > > > > > > per-transport.) > > > > > > > > > > If there are two different subscriptions configured, each has > > > > > its own list of receivers. Under which circumstances will the > > > > > server decide to use a single transport session for these two > > > > > different > > > subscriptions? > > > > > > > > If the "transport", "address", "port" are the same, then a single > > > > transport session can be used. > > > > > > What if the encoding is different? > > > > When there really is a different encoding for NETCONF (which is > > currently not supported in accordance with you earlier comments), we > > have the option of adding "encoding" to the list of properties which > > demand a different transport. However as there are not multiple > > encodings for NETCONF here, it is easy to ignore for now, especially > > as an implementation can simply define a different port for the target > > connection should the receiver really want different encoding someday. > > > > > What if the users are different? > > > > As you can identify specific ports with different call home, this will > > cover different users if a receiver can't de-multiplex. >=20 > The solution must be robust enough to correctly handle all cases that it = allows > to be confgigured. >=20 > Anyway, if this whole issue is handled in the transport documents, I am h= appy. > Some transports will likely support this, and some will not. Works for me. > > > Etc. The point is that maybe there are cases when this can be done, > > > but you need to spell this out. > > > > For receiver configuration data right now, we just have receiver > > "name" which is a string. There is no need to tell vendors how to do > > call home configuration as this isn't really in scope. Solutions here > > will come soon enough with Kent's draft. > > > > > > During the reviews however, you and Kent have argued away both "por= t" > > > > and "address" from being objects under the receiver. So vendor > > > > specific augmentations will be needed to identify "address" > > > > and "port". > > > > > > I expect such objects to be added by the transport docs, not by > > > vendors (except for vendor-specific transports). > > > > Per the parallel thread with Kent, I fully support augmenting the call > > home document when it is ready. > > > > I think what we have now is fine. Note: we can always re-add > > "address" and "port" back to SN if enough people want to re-insert > > explicit receiver identification within the YANG model >=20 > No! That would be a big mistake, since address and port are not enough f= or > receiver identification. Hopefully you agree by now. I do agree. I was trying to give a placeholder for Kent's "no-crypto" prop= osal. =20 Per below, I think it better just to leave both "address" and "port" out. > > , and not leave > > it up to vendors. But we have already argued this one sufficiently. > > I would rather just declare the current solution sufficient. > > > > > > (Unless you are now ok with letting these objects back into the > > > > draft, just for the purposes of enable this a common receiver > > > > transport session identification.) The other option is to have a > > > > future leafref augmented to ietf-netconf-server.yang as described a= bove. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't see any text about this in the document. > > > > > > > > I have added the following to the NETCONF-Notif document section > > > > on > > > configured subscriptions: > > > > > > > > > > > "It is possible to have multiple configured subscriptions sharing > > > > a common transport to a single receiver. The method of > > > > identifying that a receiver happens to be the same as used with > > > > another subscription is left up to implementers of this specificati= on." > > > > > > I don't think this helps. It means that the client has no way of > > > knowing on which sessions to expect notifs. > > > > You are right that it won't be in the YANG file. But that is the > > result when you argued "address" and "port" out of receivers. >=20 > See above. Yes. The version posted today will leave "address" and "port" out, leaving= this issue up to vendors until ietf-netconf-server.yang completes. Eric > /martin >=20 >=20 >=20 > > So for > > now the configuration is buried in vendor specific call home > > information. That information of course can be referenced by vendor > > specific additions. > > > > I think it best to leave it as is. And at some point we will have the > > ietf-netconf-server.yang model which will allow the vendor specific > > part go away. > > > > Eric > > > > > > The text above can be changed if you are ok with adding "address" > > > > and "port" back into the draft. > > > > > > > > > > > This said, "session sharing" can be acheived with the > > > > > > > current design, as well as with the alternative design where > > > > > > > the protocol is defined per receiver rather than per subscrip= tion. > > > > > > > > > > > > Agree. Any issues with NETCONF transport multiplexing of > > > > > > subscriptions > > > > > should be independent of the receiver YANG model. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it won't be interoperable unless it is described. > > > > > > > > > > > > Likely NETCONF specific concerns would land in the NETCONF-noti= f. > > > > > > I am > > > > > happy to make any needed clarifications. > > > > > > > > > > I think you will need specific text in both > > > > > subscribed-notifications and in the transport drafts, if this is = what you > want to support. > > > > > > > > I have added text to NETCONF-notif per above. > > > > > > > > For subscribed-notifications, I have added the sentence to the > > > > first paragraph > > > of the "configured subscriptions" section: > > > > > > > > "Multiple configured subscriptions MUST be supportable over a > > > > single transport session." > > > > > > See above. > > > > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > > > From nobody Mon Jul 2 09:23:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40EA81311B7 for ; 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02 Jul 2018 16:23:04 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w62GN3Kl009130; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:23:04 GMT To: Andy Bierman , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Qin Wu , Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , netconf References: <87a7rfjdcx.fsf@nic.cz> <2A66E046-CE29-42B5-A60C-1313357378DE@juniper.net> <20180630090808.5g232ydinkbsnddg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702122254.hrws4cneranwwm3w@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702140156.m7mlohgzzfe3nr4l@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 17:23:03 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4A8359CD732279D682EA706B" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 16:23:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4A8359CD732279D682EA706B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 02/07/2018 17:08, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder > > wrote: > > I suggest to try to make the proposal simpler, not more complex. > > > > +1 > > IMO the only thing needed is 1 simple identity named "factory". Yes, I basically agree. In addition, when a device boots then is initialized to if it doesn't exist.  Or alternatively, is initialized to if doesn't exist. A client can use an RPC to copy to or to if they want, but then can never write to (although factory could change via a software update). > Existing protocol operations can be used (e.g, copy-config from > factory to running). Now RESTCONF is datastore aware, it looks like we need to add a "copy-config" RPC (or should it just be "copy"?) to RESTCONF to allow the contents of one datastore to be copied to another datastore.  Such an RPC should be entirely generic and not tied to the factory datastore in anyway.  Possibly, related to this, it might be worth considering if there are any other operations in NETCONF that should be supported in RESTCONF and to do that as a single update to the protocol rather than lots of piecemeal extensions. Thanks, Rob > > > /js > > > Andy > > > On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 01:56:54PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > > > > > > > > 发件人： Juergen Schoenwaelder > > 收件人： Qin Wu >> > > 抄送： Kent Watsen >>;Ladislav Lhotka >>;netconf >> > > 主题： Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: > draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt > > 时间： 2018-07-02 20:23:06 > > > > On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 12:16:27PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > > > Good point and suggestion. Here is my thought: > > > In case :startup capability is supported, the factory > datastore can be copied into , restart is not needed > since we have loaded content of factory datastore into startup. > Startup will be updated with running each time the running is > altered. In case of system fatal error, we will consider copy > factgory datatore into again for restore. > > > > I doubt this will work. If you copy to startup> and > > subsequently to , there is a copy of > left > > in , i.e., the copy of to startup> had no effect. > > [Qin] To address this issue, we can introduce multiple target > data sores in the new operation factory restore operation, copy > factory datastore to startup and running in one operation, the > source will be set to the same factory datastore. > > > > > In case the restart is needed or device power on is needed, > the factory datastore as source may not be set, instead, URL is > set as source, the content of source identified by URL can be > loaded into target datastore during restart or device repower on. > In this case, the proposed factory datastore > > > and new operation can work together with zero touch > bootstrapping procedure proposed in draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch. > > > > URLs are an optional capability so far and I do not know what > "URL is > > set as source" means to me. What is target datastore here? I am not > > sure how data flows. > > [Qin] see device power on procedure defined in zero touch > netconf WG draft, factory restore scheme, in my opinion can be > integrated into it. The target datastore(s) can be set to any > datasore(s) you want to return factory default. > > > > > In case :writable-running capability is supported, the factory > datastore can be directly copied into , in case of > multiple conceptual flows, we can consider to copy one factory > datastore into multiple targets. > > > In case :candidate capability is supported, the factory > datastore can be first copied into and then the > is committed into , in this case, startup is > not touched. > > > > What are multiple targets? What are "multiple > conceptual flows"? > > I am confused. > > [Qin] see above, in the above cases,multiple datasores can be > set to and And all other datastore that need > to set to factory default. That means in the new operation, > multiple target list can be included. If multiple factory defaults > are allowed,multiple sources can be included as well. > > > > Not sure multiple target running case exists,if we can copy one > source to multiple instances distributed in multiple logical > network elements, that will be great. > > /js > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103          > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf --------------4A8359CD732279D682EA706B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 02/07/2018 17:08, Andy Bierman wrote:


On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
I suggest to try to make the proposal simpler, not more complex.



+1

IMO the only thing needed is 1 simple identity named "factory".
Yes, I basically agree.

In addition, when a device boots then <startup> is initialized to <factory> if it doesn't exist.  Or alternatively, <running> is initialized to <factory> if <startup> doesn't exist.
A client can use an RPC to copy <factory> to <startup> or to <running> if they want, but then can never write to <factory> (although factory could change via a software update).

Existing protocol operations can be used (e.g, copy-config from factory to running).
Now RESTCONF is datastore aware, it looks like we need to add a "copy-config" RPC (or should it just be "copy"?) to RESTCONF to allow the contents of one datastore to be copied to another datastore.  Such an RPC should be entirely generic and not tied to the factory datastore in anyway.  Possibly, related to this, it might be worth considering if there are any other operations in NETCONF that should be supported in RESTCONF and to do that as a single update to the protocol rather than lots of piecemeal extensions.

Thanks,
Rob




/js

Andy
 

On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 01:56:54PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote:
>
>
>
> 发件人： Juergen Schoenwaelder
> 收件人： Qin Wu<bill.wu@huawei.com<mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com>>
> 抄送： Kent Watsen<kwatsen@juniper.net<mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net>>;Ladislav Lhotka<lhotka@nic.cz<mailto:lhotka@nic.cz>>;netconf<netconf@ietf.org<mailto:netconf@ietf.org>>
> 主题： Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt
> 时间： 2018-07-02 20:23:06
>
> On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 12:16:27PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote:
> > Good point and suggestion. Here is my thought:
> > In case :startup capability is supported, the factory datastore can be copied into <startup>, restart is not needed since we have loaded content of factory datastore into startup. Startup will be updated with running each time the running is altered. In case of system fatal error, we will consider copy factgory datatore into <startup> again for restore.
>
> I doubt this will work. If you copy <factory> to startup> and
> subsequently <running> to <startup>, there is a copy of <running> left
> in <startup>, i.e., the copy of <factory> to startup> had no effect.
> [Qin] To address this issue, we can introduce multiple target data sores in the new operation factory restore operation, copy factory datastore to startup and running in one operation, the source will be set to the same factory datastore.
>
> > In case the restart is needed or device power on is needed, the factory datastore as source may not be set, instead, URL is set as source, the content of source identified by URL can be loaded into target datastore during restart or device repower on. In this case, the proposed factory datastore
> > and new operation can work together with zero touch bootstrapping procedure proposed in draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch.
>
> URLs are an optional capability so far and I do not know what "URL is
> set as source" means to me. What is target datastore here? I am not
> sure how data flows.
> [Qin] see device power on procedure defined in zero touch netconf WG draft, factory restore scheme, in my opinion can be integrated into it. The target datastore(s) can be set to any datasore(s) you want to return factory default.
>
> > In case :writable-running capability is supported, the factory datastore can be directly copied into <running>, in case of multiple conceptual flows, we can consider to copy one factory datastore into multiple <running> targets.
> > In case :candidate capability is supported, the factory datastore can be first copied into <candiate> and then the <candidate> is committed into <running>, in this case, startup is not touched.
>
> What are multiple <running> targets? What are "multiple conceptual flows"?
> I am confused.
> [Qin] see above, in the above cases,multiple datasores can be set to <startup> and <running> And all other datastore that need to set to factory default. That means in the new operation, multiple target list can be included. If multiple factory defaults are allowed,multiple sources can be included as well.
>
> Not sure multiple target running case exists,if we can copy one source to multiple instances distributed in multiple logical network elements, that will be great.
> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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--------------4A8359CD732279D682EA706B-- From nobody Mon Jul 2 10:09:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B33513119F for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ia1qa-bVRlL5 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 029C0131253 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id a17-v6so9969182ljd.8 for ; Mon, 02 Jul 2018 10:09:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=j0fRbPvSewdG4/rFQgxScA8jDMothhZtRMLFae44t90=; b=mJ2LbBT4z0iqCWJJlrXA7/BGKT+j9ggTkWgPEqq4L4KwON+XnwSIwk1gZqHig6+r6E lLeX2/4VTLNqdWdAWEIWtfAyXGl/uOnYqBtL5mcuZSx46w2RBWvptkS57pRGxYm+SN7u 1tM82Z5vhqmIb3SY9w7+XJwBr5q2jYbJBbUe/N1D3oldYJsIls9sfKODfzwSs2MN6m46 jtlzQfMIvRHGMLwiK0JMB4aLNysOxWZYOUxWg2Pp7MPD9M+sW/EbxcZ8hebA5ILVeUyZ vNI7hzAlx0Rt+Ik1Y/IWxRtckRU5gopphUPSQTa/7Ybxi/S/GxPiZMrInuVOogf+l9jA +bHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=j0fRbPvSewdG4/rFQgxScA8jDMothhZtRMLFae44t90=; b=XM7TpZrnlNaFIzMAg7m17aY15kECf9hTCTRW+tkgccNaaMLd27YTDC5MlRjEHb67yb B3UCnz+Ib5QHgRA2y5li3TKAQo+kFQTiUXonIm5xNQdmJOnssfLg9a6ct0vmJm2MPJSV F58sjnF3lcp9ujbVOjNe3+Cuw9FuPtPR3UJyv2GE0I+esY1pjuECwsxXPNGd6d+knXSI /AFRf1LF6FdYue4o5v6iAi9g+TVoFuTL4tjOCojyIaV97fmmPyQ3Cd2FIT7yVC5UMQVb UF1h+7LQK3l4XnnPZb1wYm+JC+kXHtHcIX4VBl3oEXned/xq2+3xbuuwKzdGVKYvr1B0 W69w== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0k1o/9AO+XwP6UBfirOvWWoQBUfAOeT6e9uTKKpBKJzAfQLJeS hnsYsr0XUfto0yf7A5iEJxrHqjtdakmRy6JYmjy3fg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfJogCCdUZ+YAZB93v2rWOlx6QbNfZxi/SgH/gA+Yb2x5JLiUYUC2B52OjZAtxgdlOR3ByIJxfoynDqD/09bIs= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:21c7:: with SMTP id h68-v6mr16752023lji.108.1530551359125; Mon, 02 Jul 2018 10:09:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:db96:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <87a7rfjdcx.fsf@nic.cz> <2A66E046-CE29-42B5-A60C-1313357378DE@juniper.net> <20180630090808.5g232ydinkbsnddg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702122254.hrws4cneranwwm3w@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702140156.m7mlohgzzfe3nr4l@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Wilton Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Qin Wu , Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001254f405700742b4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 17:09:36 -0000 --0000000000001254f405700742b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 9:23 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: > > > On 02/07/2018 17:08, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > >> I suggest to try to make the proposal simpler, not more complex. >> >> > > +1 > > IMO the only thing needed is 1 simple identity named "factory". > > Yes, I basically agree. > > In addition, when a device boots then is initialized to > if it doesn't exist. Or alternatively, is initialize= d > to if doesn't exist. > A client can use an RPC to copy to or to if > they want, but then can never write to (although factory could > change via a software update). > > Yes, factory is a read-only datastore. I suppose the boot-time setup of the conventional dataastores could be standardized. > Existing protocol operations can be used (e.g, copy-config from factory t= o > running). > > Now RESTCONF is datastore aware, it looks like we need to add a > "copy-config" RPC (or should it just be "copy"?) to RESTCONF to allow the > contents of one datastore to be copied to another datastore. Such an RPC > should be entirely generic and not tied to the factory datastore in > anyway. Possibly, related to this, it might be worth considering if ther= e > are any other operations in NETCONF that should be supported in RESTCONF > and to do that as a single update to the protocol rather than lots of > piecemeal extensions. > > RESTCONF has access to all RPC operations so /restconf/operations/ietf-netconf:copy-config is already supported. > Thanks, > Rob > > Andy > > > > /js >> > > Andy > > >> >> On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 01:56:54PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Juergen Schoenwaelder >> > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Qin Wu> >> > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A Kent Watsen>;Ladislav >> Lhotka>;netconf> > >> > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf= -restconf-fact >> ory-restore-00.txt >> > =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2018-07-02 20:23:06 >> > >> > On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 12:16:27PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: >> > > Good point and suggestion. Here is my thought: >> > > In case :startup capability is supported, the factory datastore can >> be copied into , restart is not needed since we have loaded >> content of factory datastore into startup. Startup will be updated with >> running each time the running is altered. In case of system fatal error,= we >> will consider copy factgory datatore into again for restore. >> > >> > I doubt this will work. If you copy to startup> and >> > subsequently to , there is a copy of left >> > in , i.e., the copy of to startup> had no effect. >> > [Qin] To address this issue, we can introduce multiple target data >> sores in the new operation factory restore operation, copy factory >> datastore to startup and running in one operation, the source will be se= t >> to the same factory datastore. >> > >> > > In case the restart is needed or device power on is needed, the >> factory datastore as source may not be set, instead, URL is set as sourc= e, >> the content of source identified by URL can be loaded into target datast= ore >> during restart or device repower on. In this case, the proposed factory >> datastore >> > > and new operation can work together with zero touch bootstrapping >> procedure proposed in draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch. >> > >> > URLs are an optional capability so far and I do not know what "URL is >> > set as source" means to me. What is target datastore here? I am not >> > sure how data flows. >> > [Qin] see device power on procedure defined in zero touch netconf WG >> draft, factory restore scheme, in my opinion can be integrated into it. = The >> target datastore(s) can be set to any datasore(s) you want to return >> factory default. >> > >> > > In case :writable-running capability is supported, the factory >> datastore can be directly copied into , in case of multiple >> conceptual flows, we can consider to copy one factory datastore into >> multiple targets. >> > > In case :candidate capability is supported, the factory datastore ca= n >> be first copied into and then the is committed in= to >> , in this case, startup is not touched. >> > >> > What are multiple targets? What are "multiple conceptual >> flows"? >> > I am confused. >> > [Qin] see above, in the above cases,multiple datasores can be set to >> and And all other datastore that need to set to fact= ory >> default. That means in the new operation, multiple target list can be >> included. If multiple factory defaults are allowed,multiple sources can = be >> included as well. >> > >> > Not sure multiple target running case exists,if we can copy one source >> to multiple instances distributed in multiple logical network elements, >> that will be great. >> > /js >> > >> > -- >> > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany >> > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >> >> -- >> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany >> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Netconf mailing list >> Netconf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing listNetconf@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo= /netconf > > > --0000000000001254f405700742b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 9:23 AM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:
=20 =20 =20



On 02/07/2018 17:08= , Andy Bierman wrote:
=20


On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jaco= bs-university.de> wrote:
I suggest to try to make the proposal simpler, not more complex.



+1

IMO the only thing needed is 1 simple identity named "factory".
Yes, I basically agree.

In addition, when a device boots then <startup> is initialized to <factory> if it doesn't exist.=C2=A0 Or alternatively, <running> is initialized to <factory> if <startup> doesn't exist.
A client can use an RPC to copy <factory> to <startup> or to <running> if they want, but then can never write to <factory> (although factory could change via a software update).


Yes, factory is a read-only = datastore.
I suppose the boot-time setup of the conventional data= astores could be standardized.

=C2=A0
Existing protocol operations can be used (e.g, copy-config from factory to running).
Now RESTCONF is datastore aware, it looks like we need to add a "copy-config" RPC (or should it just be "copy"?) to= RESTCONF to allow the contents of one datastore to be copied to another datastore.=C2=A0 Such an RPC should be entirely generic and not tied to the factory datastore in anyway.=C2=A0 Possibly, related to this, it might be worth considering if there are any other operations in NETCONF that should be supported in RESTCONF and to do that as a single update to the protocol rather than lots of piecemeal extensions.



RESTCONF has = access to all RPC operations so /restconf/operations/ietf-netconf:copy-conf= ig
is already supported.

=C2=A0
Thanks,
Rob



Andy

=C2=A0



/js

Andy
=C2=A0

On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 01:56:54PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote:
>
>
>
> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Juergen Schoenwaeld= er
> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Qin Wu<bill.wu@huawei.com<= mailto:bill.wu= @huawei.com>>
> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A Kent Watsen<kwatsen@juniper.net<mai<= wbr>lto:kwatsen@ju= niper.net>>;Ladislav Lhotka<= lhotka@nic.cz<mailto:lhotka@nic.cz>>;netconf<netconf@ietf.org<mailto:netconf@ietf.org>> > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt
> =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2018-07-02 20:23:06
>
> On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 12:16:27PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote:
> > Good point and suggestion. Here is my thought:
> > In case :startup capability is supported, the factory datastore can be copied into <startup>, restart is not needed since we have loaded content of factory datastore into startup. Startup will be updated with running each time the running is altered. In case of system fatal error, we will consider copy factgory datatore into <startup> again for restore.
>
> I doubt this will work. If you copy <factory> to startup> and
> subsequently <running> to <startup>, there is a copy of <running> left
> in <startup>, i.e., the copy of <factory> to startup> had no effect.
> [Qin] To address this issue, we can introduce multiple target data sores in the new operation factory restore operation, copy factory datastore to startup and running in one operation, the source will be set to the same factory datastore.
>
> > In case the restart is needed or device power on is needed, the factory datastore as source may not be set, instead, URL is set as source, the content of source identified by URL can be loaded into target datastore during restart or device repower on. In this case, the proposed factory datastore
> > and new operation can work together with zero touch bootstrapping procedure proposed in draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch.
>
> URLs are an optional capability so far and I do not know what "URL is
> set as source" means to me. What is target datastor= e here? I am not
> sure how data flows.
> [Qin] see device power on procedure defined in zero touch netconf WG draft, factory restore scheme, in my opinion can be integrated into it. The target datastore(s) can be set to any datasore(s) you want to return factory default.
>
> > In case :writable-running capability is supported, the factory datastore can be directly copied into <running>, in case of multiple conceptual flows, we can consider to copy one factory datastore into multiple <running> targets.
> > In case :candidate capability is supported, the factory datastore can be first copied into <candiate> and then the <candidate> is committed into <running>, in this case, startup is not touched.
>
> What are multiple <running> targets? What are "multiple conceptual flows"?
> I am confused.
> [Qin] see above, in the above cases,multiple datasores can be set to <startup> and <running> And all other datastore that need to set to factory default. That means in the new operation, multiple target list can be included. If multiple factory defaults are allowed,multiple sources can be included as well.
>
> Not sure multiple target running case exists,if we can copy one source to multiple instances distributed in multiple logical network elements, that will be great.
> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 <https://www.jacobs= -university.de/>

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Net= conf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/netconf



_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/netconf


--0000000000001254f405700742b4-- From nobody Mon Jul 2 10:09:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A7713121C for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6vVov-KA0ZxL for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494CC131248 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8198; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530551363; x=1531760963; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=VM3zTMv9Se7F4JvmQp/T310NfBn1heN1yqSaZG9nznY=; b=AMpwY+U+dLwQcIBiLNCFPpCKM9a5eKBZIqu47ej7O4rycliiqp4dy75h PywweuCRcmI1MQ6H+jqM1qztrc7l6VoOjLYeiDZQsvXZ4DyucVPivzuF2 NxpJIySUGZbHZX2ONPzNeOuOdIPBHEKU1a8xLY1rEI1AxCNUUWfKq3kin c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DCBAC4Wzpb/4sNJK1TCRkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGDHyUFYn8oCotzjD6CB5UkgXoLhGwCgzQhNBgBAgEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAm0ohTYBAQEDATo/BQsCAQgOBwMMAREQMiUCBA4FCBaCN0yBdwiqOohMgS6?= =?us-ascii?q?HPYEwgVY/hB6BQYMPFIVsAoc/hQ+MeAkCjxOBSIwVh3qJZgIREwGBJB04gVJ?= =?us-ascii?q?wFTuCaYIkF44Xb49tgRoBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,299,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="418372689" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 02 Jul 2018 17:09:22 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (xch-rtp-011.cisco.com [64.101.220.151]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w62H9L9r021457 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Jul 2018 17:09:22 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:09:21 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:09:21 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Martin Bjorklund CC: "kwatsen@juniper.net" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] IETF 101 SN Question 1: Proper designation of receiver Thread-Index: AQHT7qZjKKPiRp7oL0Gw54ItH09w2qQ1f5yAgABaRoCAAFIXAP//0cbAgCYz3oCAALf2gIALzo6AgACF3OCAAIGQgP//v4TQgAHRv4D//78WkABEsRYAAAapTSAAjo35gAAIQuKQADa+b4AAB2cooABsg3cAAJ0o7pA= Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 17:09:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <89a99290a9ff4addb3d8c537aae89dbf@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180629.110556.2237400478562295884.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: <20180629.110556.2237400478562295884.mbj@tail-f.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] IETF 101 SN Question 1: Proper designation of receiver X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 17:09:37 -0000 > From: Martin Bjorklund, June 29, 2018 5:06 AM >=20 > Hi, >=20 > "Eric Voit (evoit)" wrote: > > Martin, > > one question specifically to you below. (search for **Martin) >=20 > See inline >=20 > > > > Kent, > > in line... > > > > > From: Kent Watsen, June 26, 2018 9:47 PM >=20 > [...] >=20 > > > > So can we take out address and finally be done? That would be a g= ood > > > thing. > > > > > > Yes, take out the address leaf but I think that, if we want to > > > progress the SN draft along with a transport binding definition that > > > doesn't depend on the ietf-*conf-server modules, then we might > > > define something else > > > like: > > > > > > module ietf-netconf-no-crypto-subscribed-notifications { > > > prefix nncsn; > > > import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } > > > > > > container implicit-netconf-receivers { > > > list implicit-netconf-receiver { > > > key name; > > > leaf name { ... } > > > leaf address { ... } > > > leaf port { ... } > > > } > > > } > > > augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receiv= er" { > > > if-feature "subscription-support"; > > > when 'derived-from(../../../transport, "nsn:netconf")'; > > > leaf netconf-endpoint { > > > type leafref { > > > path "/nncsn:implicit-netconf-receivers/nnccs:implicit-netc= onf-" > > > + "receiver/nnccs:name"; > > > } > > > } > > > } > > > ... > > > } > > > > **Martin, are you ok with this. If you are and there are no other > > **objections, I will add this and we can be done with this thread. > > **Which would be progress. Otherwise, let's just leave things as they > > **are. >=20 > No, but it might be that I don't really understand what you propose. >=20 > What is "NETCONF no crypto"? Comparing with "ietf-netconf-server" > model, you don't have the "server-identity". How can this be secure? I am fine with things the way they are. Above Kent was attempting to provi= de a lightweight call home structure as a surrogate for the previous "addre= ss" and "port". Since we can't easily get to consensus on a lightweight s= tructure, we should just leave this up to vendor until ietf-netconf-server.= yang is available. This thread has already shown that valid augmentation= s to the subscription model may be constructed to into receivers. > Is the reason for this to avoid a dependency to "draft-ietf-netconf-netco= nf- > client-server" from "draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications"? >=20 > I would rather keep this dependency and ensure the WG finishes the client= - > server model. (This work was adopted by the WG in 2014 which is even ear= lier > than the notif drafts...) I have updated the text to point to ietf-netconf-server.yang as an informat= ional for vendors who want to implement a call home structure. As ways of= adding the leafref to ietf-netconf-server.yang exist, I don't think it nec= essary to wait for that ecosystem of drafts to conclude. =20 > > BTW: adding back address and port also solves the "how do we have a > > common transport across multiple configured receivers". > > > > > I don't quite understand how the server is supposed to know how to > > > configure the call-home parameters or the transport parameters, but > > > at least this would be on par with what you had before. > > > > Yes. > > > > > >> > > > >> We agree above that the ietf-*conf-server module may not be > > > *implemented*, and > > > >> yet subscriptions still need to be configured >=20 > I think it is ok to require an implementation of configured subscriptions= that > use the standard "nsn:netconf" transport to also implement the ietf-netco= nf- > server module. If a vendor doesn't want this, it can define another tran= sport > identity. I have updated the text to point to ietf-netconf-server.yang as an informat= ional reference. Requiring an implementation of NETCONF configured subscri= ptions to use the full evolving ecosystem of ietf-netconf-server.yang which= can be determined later.=20 Eric > /martin >=20 > > > >> leafref- > > > ing > > > >> becomes the issue. This is why I'm suggesting the netconf-notif = YANG > > > module > > > >> *use* the netconf-server-group itself. This way, when the > > > >> *netconf-notif > > > draft > > > >> is implemented, its own definition comes into play. When done > > > >> this way, > > > the > > > >> flag would no longer be needed since the entire netconf-server > > > >> instance > > > would > > > >> be SN-specific. > > > > > > > > The NETCONF-Notif draft needs to be implemented now for dynamic > > > subscriptions. > > > > > > From above, and I can't ascertain why this is, when dynamic > > > subscriptions don't appear to utilize the "netconf" identity in any > > > way... > > > > No, but non-YANG Sections 5, 7, & 8 is needed. Plus many of the > > examples. > > > > > > An update to NETCONF-notif for configured subscriptions is > > > > possible to insert the call-home leafref (or insert new grouping). > > > > But this update becomes unnecessary if ietf-netconf-server.yang is > > > > augmented as described above. > > > > > > Perhaps, but it seems unnatural to do it this way. What makes sense > > > to me is for the module that claims to be the transport-binding > > > module to provide the configuration for binding the transport. > > > > At this point we do have a relatively minor difference of option which > > need not impact the closing the current > > draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications. > > > > > >> >> That said, I have to say that I'm not entirely sure if I > > > >> >> understand if what is planned is legal. For instance, in a > > > >> >> normal NETCONF call-home situation, > > > the > > > >> >> NETCONF session begins with both sides sending > > > >> >> messages and > > > then > > > >> >> the server waiting for the client to send RPCs, which might > > > >> >> include a > > > 5277 > > > >> >> , after which the begin to= flow. > > > >> >> Is > > > >> >> this the same here, or are you expecting the > > > >> >> messages to > > > start > > > >> >> flowing immediately? > > > >> > > > > >> > A subscription started notification will be sent after the > > > >> > hellos are > > > successful. > > > >> > Can you point to something in RFC 6241 which says a > > > >> > can't > > > be > > > >> sent > > > >> > until an RPC is sent from the client? > > > >> > > > >> It's not a very good reference, but I found this (emphasis added): > > > >> > > > >> o client: Invokes protocol operations on a server. In additio= n, a > > > >> client can *subscribe* to receive notifications from a serve= r. > > > >> > > > >> We should ask the WG. All I know is that it's always been that > > > >> the client > > > does > > > >> something to initiate server behavior. Admittedly, this is kind > > > >> of a new > > > thing, > > > >> and it might be okay, but I think it warrants review by others. > > > > > > > > You are welcome to make the request. > > > > > > Eric, you are the Editor. But beware, this could blow up and we > > > decide to drop the netconf and restconf protocols bindings entirely > > > and only focus on transport bindings for things like gRPC and > > > udp-pub-channel. If NC/RC are needed, then the server could > > > configure a standard call-home connection (via the ietf-*conf-server > > > modules) from which the client can issue a start a dynamic > > > subscription. Just thinking this might be a better win. > > > > Things are far easier with HTTP based transports, because you must get > > an explicit OK from a subscription-started before sending any > > . See RESTCONF-notif for configured subscriptions which > > used no RESTCONF at all for this function. > > > > Eric > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > From nobody Mon Jul 2 15:13:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39279131228 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:13:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.586 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.586 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=QuhW59/B; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=eddA3Bes Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FSMJBfzdgyUc for ; 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Hello,
I updated the draft according to comments including proposing a more simple standalone YANG model.

regards Balazs



-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities-02.txt
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:04:25 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: Alexander Clemm <ludwig@clemm.org>, Balazs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> 


A new version of I-D, draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Balazs Lengyel and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities
Revision:	02
Title:		YangPush Notification Capabilities
Document date:	2018-07-02
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		10
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities-02.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities-02
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities-02

Abstract:
   This document proposes a YANG module that allows a YANG server to
   specify for which data nodes it will send "YANG Datastore
   Subscription" on-change notifications.  It also proposes to use YANG
   Instance Data to document this information in implementation time.

                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


-- 
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com
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Hello,

I would like to get my draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities-02  accepted as a workgroup item. I published an updated version of the draft, and there have been some comments. At the last meeting people spoke up in support of it and no one opposed it.  I would be glad to present it in Montreal, but my main goal is to move its acceptance ahead. Shall I present it or what is the good way forward?

  - name of the drafts: draft-lengyel-netconf-notification-capabilities-02
  - name of presentation:  same
  - name of the presenters: Balazs Lengyel
  - desired time request in Minutes. 10 min

regards Balazs



On 6/18/2018 11:41 PM, Kent Watsen wrote:
Dear WG,

Mahesh and I notice that the preliminary IETF 102 Agenda has been posted [1].  NETCONF is scheduled to meet Monday afternoon for two hours on July 16th.

If you are interested in presenting to the WG, please send your presentation requests to the "netconf-chairs" alias with the following information, for each presentation request, if more than one:

  - name of the drafts (if any)
  - name of presentation (usually same as the name of the draft)
  - name of the presenters
  - desired time request in Minutes.

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/agenda.html

Thanks!
Mahesh and Kent



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-- 
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com
From nobody Mon Jul 2 15:47:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietf.org Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1219D1313E5; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:47:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netconf@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153057165502.16157.15185842271768314132@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:47:35 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 22:47:43 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF. Title : Customized Subscriptions to a Publisher's Event Streams Authors : Eric Voit Alexander Clemm Alberto Gonzalez Prieto Einar Nilsen-Nygaard Ambika Prasad Tripathy Filename : draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt Pages : 74 Date : 2018-07-02 Abstract: This document defines a YANG data model and associated mechanisms enabling subscriber-specific subscriptions to a publisher's event streams. Applying these elements allows a subscriber to request for and receive a continuous, custom feed of publisher generated information. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 2 15:48:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietf.org Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B841131421; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:48:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netconf@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153057168013.16387.12639167167171178563@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:48:00 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-10.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 22:48:08 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF. Title : NETCONF Support for Event Notifications Authors : Eric Voit Alexander Clemm Alberto Gonzalez Prieto Einar Nilsen-Nygaard Ambika Prasad Tripathy Filename : draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-10.txt Pages : 26 Date : 2018-07-02 Abstract: This document provides a NETCONF binding to subscribed notifications and to YANG push. RFC Editor note: please replace the four references to pre-RFC normative drafts with the actual assigned RFC numbers. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 2 15:50:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32031313CE for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:50:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CWAsDCu2SsTQ for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D85071313BF for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:50:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=33484; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530571829; x=1531781429; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=54GK3x5GV02o4CTreNu7JyOKnVpc7N8BoJL9wo0XMIU=; b=KjKqxnhasHNnMj3+OxcVgDM7L9uF02PcU4I5RPS2Fr3dOQm1Ke+8JH6J HSm2FGrnrZTiGGYvEdPSaOc1qVHtEUaE8Z5dINi0hOa0jA36qO8CjiDQV 2v4deGgmo4CgTSWLw1ITPxSGPM/7k5Aykj3nLNnq7yAQyJVudOV7gNkLq M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C8AACJqzpb/5hdJa1SChkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGCU3ZifygKg2+IBIxBggeVJIF6CxgBB4QGRgIXgx0hNBg?= =?us-ascii?q?BAgEBAgEBAm0cDIU2AQEBAQMBASEKQQkCEAIBBgIVEBMDBAMCAgIlCxQRAgQ?= =?us-ascii?q?BDQUIE4MGgRtkD40Um0iCHIhTgTaIbYFWP4EPgmEugxgBAQIYgRsFBgEBCCQ?= =?us-ascii?q?JHwiCQ4JVAplGCQKGBIkPgUhDg0mICYozhy0CERMBgSQNEDiBUnAVO4JpCYJ?= =?us-ascii?q?DgzSFFIU+bwGOOQ4XgQiBGgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,300,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="418488695" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 02 Jul 2018 22:50:28 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (xch-rtp-011.cisco.com [64.101.220.151]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w62MoSoZ005644 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Jul 2018 22:50:28 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 18:50:27 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 18:50:27 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Andy Bierman , Kent Watsen CC: Henk Birkholz , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) Thread-Index: AQHUC7Bk2NEfjxedcUmM/mAqvL2qMaRxMGsAgABNWwCACxi18A== Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 22:50:27 +0000 Message-ID: <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.228] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9XCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? 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netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUDgohYkKCob3+QEeCTKJnrpl8VqR0/o0ggAAY6ACAAV+F8IAAiDSAgAEcNQCAAEg30P//ne4AgAO4TyD//6LGAIAAoGCl//97SwAABG7KgAAAfvWAACN6EEA= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 01:36:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87a7rfjdcx.fsf@nic.cz> <2A66E046-CE29-42B5-A60C-1313357378DE@juniper.net> <20180630090808.5g232ydinkbsnddg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702122254.hrws4cneranwwm3w@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702140156.m7mlohgzzfe3nr4l@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.244] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEC1230nkgeml513mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org 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(lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFC73130E16 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 19:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id F3D02390E1611; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 03:04:12 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 03:04:13 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.193]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:04:04 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Andy Bierman , Robert Wilton CC: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUDgohYkKCob3+QEeCTKJnrpl8VqR0/o0ggAAY6ACAAV+F8IAAiDSAgAEcNQCAAEg30P//ne4AgAO4TyD//6LGAIAAoGCl//97SwAABG7KgAAAfvWAAAGdggAAIn5TgA== Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 02:04:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87a7rfjdcx.fsf@nic.cz> <2A66E046-CE29-42B5-A60C-1313357378DE@juniper.net> <20180630090808.5g232ydinkbsnddg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702122254.hrws4cneranwwm3w@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702140156.m7mlohgzzfe3nr4l@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.244] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEC1281nkgeml513mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , 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X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YFVqhplcTZnW for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 19:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C73B130EA0 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 19:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 0102787DA2D4; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 03:05:34 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 03:05:35 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.193]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:05:31 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUDgohYkKCob3+QEeCTKJnrpl8VqR0/o0ggAAY6ACAAV+F8IAAiDSAgAEcNQCAAEg30P//ne4AgAO4TyD//6LGAIAAoGCl//97SwAAKgFGkA== Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 02:05:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87a7rfjdcx.fsf@nic.cz> <2A66E046-CE29-42B5-A60C-1313357378DE@juniper.net> <20180630090808.5g232ydinkbsnddg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702122254.hrws4cneranwwm3w@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702140156.m7mlohgzzfe3nr4l@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180702140156.m7mlohgzzfe3nr4l@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.244] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 02:05:40 -0000 T2theSwgdGhhbmtzIGZvciB5b3VyIGdvb2Qgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbi4NCi0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2 LS0tLS0NCuWPkeS7tuS6ujogSnVlcmdlbiBTY2hvZW53YWVsZGVyIFttYWlsdG86ai5zY2hvZW53 YWVsZGVyQGphY29icy11bml2ZXJzaXR5LmRlXSANCuWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAxOOW5tDfmnIgy 5pelIDIyOjAyDQrmlLbku7bkuro6IFFpbiBXdQ0K5oqE6YCBOiBLZW50IFdhdHNlbjsgTGFkaXNs YXYgTGhvdGthOyBuZXRjb25mDQrkuLvpopg6IFJlOiBbTmV0Y29uZl0gSS1EIEFjdGlvbjogZHJh ZnQtd3UtbmV0Y29uZi1yZXN0Y29uZi1mYWN0b3J5LXJlc3RvcmUtMDAudHh0DQoNCkkgc3VnZ2Vz 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MjEgMjAwIDMxMDMgICAgICAgICA8aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuamFjb2JzLXVuaXZlcnNpdHkuZGUvPg0K From nobody Mon Jul 2 20:22:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4722130EEA for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 20:22:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6ZhVqacu7Sd8 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 20:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 795D9130EEC for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 20:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id CCD06CD0295FA for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 04:22:41 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEML421-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.38) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 04:22:43 +0100 Received: from DGGEML510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.6]) by dggeml421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 11:22:29 +0800 From: Rohit R Ranade To: Qin Wu CC: netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUDgohYkKCob3+QEeCTKJnrpl8VqR0/o0ggAAY6ACAAV+F8IAAiDSAgAEcNQCAAEg30P//ne4AgAO4TyD//6LGAIAAoGCl//97SwAABG7KgAAAfvWAACN6EEAABDbi0A== Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 03:22:29 +0000 Message-ID: <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC846F@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: 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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 11:22:25 -0000 ietf-system:system-restart Is this what you have been thinking about? Balazs On 6/29/2018 7:43 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > sufficient. I'm unsure which published RFC defines the "reboot" > RPC, it's possible that none do. > > Kent // contributor -- Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. Senior Specialist Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com From nobody Tue Jul 3 06:05:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 257C7130E0A for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 06:05:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0VpEYCGbTiPT for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 06:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DC1C130EAB for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 06:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 06487A1794DDB; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:05:15 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:05:16 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.193]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:05:11 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Balazs Lengyel , Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUDgohYkKCob3+QEeCTKJnrpl8VqR0/o0ggAAY6ACAAV+F8IAAiDSAgAXeywCAAJ/i4A== Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 13:05:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87a7rfjdcx.fsf@nic.cz> <2A66E046-CE29-42B5-A60C-1313357378DE@juniper.net> <5e4913e7-949b-7655-5ad8-31650f87be21@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <5e4913e7-949b-7655-5ad8-31650f87be21@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.244] Content-Type: text/plain; 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What is the difference? So are you looking for a combined copy-config+system-restart operation? regards Balazs On 7/3/2018 3:05 PM, Qin Wu wrote: > Thanks Balazs. > I think the exising NC/RC operation doesn't define a parameter to trigger reboot or system-restart, would it be great to define a generic datatore copy operation to indicate when or whether restart is needed? > Separating datastore copy operation from reboot means we should define how reboot works together with NC/RC operations or new operation to fulfill factory restore. > e.g.,Reboot or system-restart might be needed or not needed. The reboot or system-restart might happen before or after the datastore(s) are initialized into ,etc. > > -Qin > -----邮件原件----- > 发件人: Balazs Lengyel [mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com] > 发送时间: 2018年7月3日 19:22 > 收件人: Kent Watsen; Qin Wu; Ladislav Lhotka; netconf@ietf.org > 主题: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt > > ietf-system:system-restart > > Is this what you have been thinking about? > Balazs > > > On 6/29/2018 7:43 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: >> sufficient. I'm unsure which published RFC defines the "reboot" >> RPC, it's possible that none do. >> >> Kent // contributor -- Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. Senior Specialist Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com From nobody Tue Jul 3 09:00:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietf.org Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F766130F17; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:00:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: ibagdona@gmail.com, netconf@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153063361058.4893.8497418041339460514.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 09:00:10 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] netconf - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 102 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:00:11 -0000 Dear Mahesh Jethanandani, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. netconf Session 1 (2:00 requested) Monday, 16 July 2018, Afternoon Session I 1330-1530 Room Name: Van Horne size: 130 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/sessions/netconf.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Network Configuration Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Mahesh Jethanandani Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 75 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: opsawg opsarea netmod anima Second Priority: bfd rtgwg saag Third Priority: sacm People who must be present: Mahesh Jethanandani Kent Watsen Ignas Bagdonas Resources Requested: Special Requests: Please schedule session Mon-Thur. Friday is NOT possible. 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xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 15:21:44 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: "kwatsen@juniper.net" CC: "netconf@ietf.org" , Martin Bjorklund Thread-Topic: [Netconf] IETF 101 SN Question 1: Proper designation of receiver Thread-Index: AQHT7qZjKKPiRp7oL0Gw54ItH09w2qQ1f5yAgABaRoCAAFIXAP//0cbAgCYz3oCAALf2gIALzo6AgACF3OCAAIGQgP//v4TQgAHRv4D//78WkABEsRYAAAapTSAAjo35gAAIQuKQADa+b4AAB2cooABVt5MAABTgTYAA0iUecA== Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 19:21:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <89a99290a9ff4addb3d8c537aae89dbf@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180629.101057.1590202307624767148.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: <20180629.101057.1590202307624767148.mbj@tail-f.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.228] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] IETF 101 SN Question 1: Proper designation of receiver X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 19:21:52 -0000 PiBGcm9tOiBNYXJ0aW4gQmpvcmtsdW5kLCBKdW5lIDI5LCAyMDE4IDQ6MTEgQU0NCj4gDQo+IEtl bnQgV2F0c2VuIDxrd2F0c2VuQGp1bmlwZXIubmV0PiB3cm90ZToNCj4gPg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gPj4g Pj4gPiBDb3JyZWN0LiAgQnV0IHlvdXIgcXVlc3Rpb24gd2FzICJjYW4geW91IHVzZSBuZXRjb25m LW5vdGlmDQo+ID4gPj4gPj4gPiB3aXRob3V0IGEgbGVhZnJlZg0KPiA+ID4+ID4+IHRvLi4uIi4N Cj4gPiA+PiA+PiA+IE5lZWRpbmcgYm90aCBkcmFmdHMgaXMgYWJzb2x1dGVseSB0aGUgY2FzZSBm b3IgZHluYW1pYw0KPiA+ID4+ID4+ID4gc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uIHN1cHBvcnQsIGFuZCBpZXRmLW5l dGNvbmYtc2VydmVyIHdvdWxkIG5vdCBiZSBuZWVkZWQNCj4gaGVyZS4NCj4gPiA+PiA+Pg0KPiA+ ID4+ID4+IEkgcmVhZCB0aGUgYWJvdmUgYSBmZXcgdGltZXMsIGJ1dCBJJ20gaGF2aW5nIGEgaGFy 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19:26:01 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w63JQ0TA002989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 3 Jul 2018 19:26:01 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 15:26:00 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 15:26:00 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Kent Watsen , Andy Bierman CC: Henk Birkholz , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) Thread-Index: AQHUC7Bk2NEfjxedcUmM/mAqvL2qMaRxMGsAgABNWwCACxi18IABmkaA//++vEA= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 19:26:00 +0000 Message-ID: <655e780ffcb24862b2d66d903d34b18b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.228] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_655e780ffcb24862b2d66d903d34b18bXCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 19:26:26 -0000 --_000_655e780ffcb24862b2d66d903d34b18bXCHRTP013ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2hhdCBkbyB5b3Ugc2VlIGFzIHRoZSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlIGJldHdlZW4gTUFZIGFuZCBUQkQ/ICAg ICAg4oCcQ29uZmlndXJlZOKAnSBpcyBhIGRlZmluZWQgZmVhdHVyZS4NCg0KRXJpYw0KDQpGcm9t OiBLZW50IFdhdHNlbiwgSnVseSAzLCAyMDE4IDM6MTggUE0NCg0KU2luY2UgZm9sa3MgYXJlIGxl YW5pbmcgdG93YXJkczoNCg0KICAgZHluYW1pYzogTVVTVA0KICAgY29uZmlndXJlZDogTUFZDQoN CldlIG1pZ2h0IGFsc28gY29uc2lkZXI6DQoNCiAgIGR5bmFtaWM6IE1VU1QNCiAgIGNvbmZpZ3Vy ZWQ6IFRCRA0KDQpTaW5jZSB0aGUgdHJhbnNwb3J0IGJpbmRpbmdzIChvbmx5IG5lZWRlZCBmb3Ig Y29uZmlndXJlZCBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zKSBzZWVtIHRvIGRlcGVuZCBvbiB0aGUgY2xpZW50L3Nl 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(was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 20:01:21 -0000 --_000_C59D15F16B1940DDA135430DD8594E22junipernet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpUaGUgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSBiZWluZyB0aGF0IHdlIGRvbid0IGRlZmluZSBhbnkgc3VwcG9ydCBm b3IgY29uZmlndXJlZCBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIG5vdyAtIG5vdCBldmVuIGEgImZlYXR1cmUiIHN0 YXRlbWVudC4gIFdlIGp1c3QgZG8gd2hhdCdzIG5lZWRlZCBmb3IgZHluYW1pYyBzdWJzY3JpcHRp b25zIG5vdy4NCg0KS2VudA0KDQoNCk9uIDcvMy8xOCwgMzoyNiBQTSwgIkVyaWMgVm9pdCAoZXZv aXQpIiA8ZXZvaXRAY2lzY28uY29tPG1haWx0bzpldm9pdEBjaXNjby5jb20+PiB3cm90ZToNCg0K V2hhdCBkbyB5b3Ugc2VlIGFzIHRoZSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlIGJldHdlZW4gTUFZIGFuZCBUQkQ/ICAg ICAg4oCcQ29uZmlndXJlZOKAnSBpcyBhIGRlZmluZWQgZmVhdHVyZS4NCg0KRXJpYw0KDQpGcm9t 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"netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) Thread-Index: AdQKtfjxissNyxH4RTyEm2cgbbDYcwBNQdOAADSCyQAACatiAAFrgU6AACreHIAAAEiRAAABOrcAAAwk99A= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:16:08 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB1D3B1@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <655e780ffcb24862b2d66d903d34b18b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.209.217.0] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB1D3B1sjceml521mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 21:17:01 -0000 --_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB1D3B1sjceml521mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UmVhbGx5LCB0aGlzIHNob3VsZCBiZSBNQVkuICBUaGlzIGRvZXMgbm90IGxlYXZlIGl0IGFzIG9w ZW4tZW5kZWQgYXMgVEJEIGRvZXMuDQotLS0gQWxleA0KDQpGcm9tOiBOZXRjb25mIFttYWlsdG86 bmV0Y29uZi1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgS2VudCBXYXRzZW4NClNlbnQ6 IFR1ZXNkYXksIEp1bHkgMDMsIDIwMTggMTowMSBQTQ0KVG86IEVyaWMgVm9pdCAoZXZvaXQpIDxl dm9pdEBjaXNjby5jb20+OyBBbmR5IEJpZXJtYW4gPGFuZHlAeXVtYXdvcmtzLmNvbT4NCkNjOiBu ZXRjb25mQGlldGYub3JnDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW05ldGNvbmZdIEFueW9uZSB3YW50IGp1c3Qg Q29uZmlndXJlZCBTdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zPyAod2FzIFJFOiBMQyBvbiBzdWJzY3JpYmVkLW5vdGlm 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21:51:15 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 17:51:14 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-011.cisco.com ([64.101.220.151]) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com ([64.101.220.151]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 17:51:14 -0400 From: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" To: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? Thread-Index: AQHUExf2ThPlHEyrBUyMcfRsfnsJpQ== Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:51:13 +0000 Message-ID: <5FF7586D-B9F2-439F-8633-9AEC6CA24547@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.129] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5FF7586DB9F2439F86339AEC6CA24547ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? 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autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2lSkfWnIKTLZ for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 19:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1589F127598 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 19:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 80F52DB1C252A for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 03:01:53 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.73) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 03:01:53 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.193]) by nkgeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 10:01:43 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF Thread-Index: AdQTOvQ+DGsUYeJXQ/uaFzBxunpGvA== Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 02:01:43 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.244] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEC24ACnkgeml513mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 02:02:00 -0000 --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEC24ACnkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Folks: We have posted inline action capability draft on Jun 28: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14823.html One comment we received from the list is: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14863.html The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment. Therefore we would like to draw you attention again on this draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01 We would like to receive more review and feedback on this draft, thanks. -Qin --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEC24ACnkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, Folks:

We have posted inline action ca= pability draft on Jun 28:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/c= urrent/msg14823.html

 
One comment we received from the list is:<=
o:p>
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web=
/netconf/current/msg14863.html
The v-(01) is uploaded to address this com=
ment.

Therefore we would like to draw= you attention again on this draft

https://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01

We would like to receive more r= eview and feedback on this draft, thanks.

 

-Qin

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEC24ACnkgeml513mbxchi_-- From nobody Tue Jul 3 19:43:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB896130EA4 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 19:43:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NFQ4vTlq6JRv for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 19:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3C79130934 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 19:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id D83F85F170E23; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 03:43:47 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 03:43:48 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.193]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 10:43:43 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Balazs Lengyel , Kent Watsen , Ladislav Lhotka , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUDgohYkKCob3+QEeCTKJnrpl8VqR0/o0ggAAY6ACAAV+F8IAAiDSAgAXeywCAAJ/i4P//iO+AgAFTQpA= Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 02:43:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87a7rfjdcx.fsf@nic.cz> <2A66E046-CE29-42B5-A60C-1313357378DE@juniper.net> <5e4913e7-949b-7655-5ad8-31650f87be21@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.244] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 02:43:53 -0000 R29vZCBjb21tZW50LCBCYWxhenMsIA0KSSBhbSBub3Qgc3VyZSByZWJvb3QgYW5kIHN5c3RlbS1y ZXN0YXJ0IGFyZSB0aGUgc2FtZSB0aGluZy4NCkluIHNvbWUgY2FzZXMsIHRoZXkgYXJlIGVxdWl2 YWxlbnQuDQpCdXQgaW4gc29tZSBvdGhlciBjYXNlcywgdGhleSBzZWVtcyBkaWZmZXJlbnQsIHJl Ym9vdCBtYXkgbmVlZCB0byBsb2FkIHNvZnR3YXJlIGJvb3QgaW1hZ2UuIFJlYm9vdCBuZWVkIHRv IHJlY29yZCBib290LWRhdGUtdGltZS4NClN5c3RlbS1yZXN0YXJ0IG1heSBuZWVkIHRvIGluZm9y bSB0aGUgY2xpZW50IGFib3V0IHN5c3RlbS1yZXN0YXJ0IGV2ZW50LiBTeXN0ZW0tcmVzdGFydCBz ZWVtcw0KdG8gbWVhbiByZXN0YXJ0IHRoZSB3aG9sZSBzeXN0ZW0gKG5vdCBqdXN0IE5FVENPTkYt c2V2ZXIpDQoNCkluIGFkZGl0aW9uLCB3ZSBtYXkgaGF2ZSByZXN0YXJ0IG9wZXJhdGlvbiwgcmVz dGFydCBhbmQgcmVib290IGFyZSBhbG1vc3Qgc2FtZSwgYm90aCBtZWFucyByZXN0YXJ0IHRoZSBk ZXZpY2UsIGluIG15IHVuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmcuDQoNClJlZ2FyZGluZyBjb21iaW5lZCBjb3B5LWNv bmZpZytzeXN0ZW0tcmVzdGFydCwgb3IgY29weS1jb25maWcrcmVib290LCBJIHRoaW5rIGluIHNv bWUgY2FzZSwgd2UgZG9uJ3QgbmVlZCByZXN0YXJ0IG9yIHJlYm9vdC4NCkluIHNvbWUgY2FzZSwg d2UgbmVlZC4gQnV0IEV4aXN0aW5nIGNvcHktY29uZmlnIG1heSBoYXZlIGxpbWl0YXRpb24sZS5n LiwgY2FuIG5vdCBiZSBhcHBsaWVkIHRvIHRoZSBjYXNlIHdoZXJlIHRoZSBSRVNUQ09ORiBpcyBp bXBsZW1lbnRlZCBpbiBhIGRldmljZSB0aGF0IGRvZXNuJ3QgaGF2ZSBORVRDT05GIHN1cHBvcnQu DQotLS0tLemCruS7tuWOn+S7ti0tLS0tDQrlj5Hku7bkuro6IEJhbGF6cyBMZW5neWVsIFttYWls dG86YmFsYXpzLmxlbmd5ZWxAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tXSANCuWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAxOOW5tDfm nIgz5pelIDIxOjQ4DQrmlLbku7bkuro6IFFpbiBXdTsgS2VudCBXYXRzZW47IExhZGlzbGF2IExo b3RrYTsgbmV0Y29uZkBpZXRmLm9yZw0K5Li76aKYOiBSZTogW05ldGNvbmZdIEktRCBBY3Rpb246 IGRyYWZ0LXd1LW5ldGNvbmYtcmVzdGNvbmYtZmFjdG9yeS1yZXN0b3JlLTAwLnR4dA0KDQpDb3Vs ZCB5b3UgcGxlYXNlIGNsYXJpZnkgdGhlIGRlZmluaXRpb24gb2YgcmVib290IGFuZCBzeXN0ZW0t cmVzdGFydD8gDQpXaGF0IGlzIHRoZSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlPw0KDQpTbyBhcmUgeW91IGxvb2tpbmcg Zm9yIGEgY29tYmluZWQgY29weS1jb25maWcrc3lzdGVtLXJlc3RhcnQgb3BlcmF0aW9uPw0KDQpy ZWdhcmRzIEJhbGF6cw0KDQoNCk9uIDcvMy8yMDE4IDM6MDUgUE0sIFFpbiBXdSB3cm90ZToNCj4g VGhhbmtzIEJhbGF6cy4NCj4gSSB0aGluayB0aGUgZXhpc2luZyBOQy9SQyBvcGVyYXRpb24gZG9l c24ndCBkZWZpbmUgYSBwYXJhbWV0ZXIgdG8gdHJpZ2dlciByZWJvb3Qgb3Igc3lzdGVtLXJlc3Rh cnQsIHdvdWxkIGl0IGJlIGdyZWF0IHRvIGRlZmluZSBhIGdlbmVyaWMgZGF0YXRvcmUgY29weSBv cGVyYXRpb24gdG8gaW5kaWNhdGUgd2hlbiBvciB3aGV0aGVyIHJlc3RhcnQgaXMgbmVlZGVkPw0K PiBTZXBhcmF0aW5nIGRhdGFzdG9yZSBjb3B5IG9wZXJhdGlvbiBmcm9tIHJlYm9vdCBtZWFucyB3 ZSBzaG91bGQgZGVmaW5lIGhvdyByZWJvb3Qgd29ya3MgdG9nZXRoZXIgd2l0aCBOQy9SQyBvcGVy YXRpb25zIG9yIG5ldyBvcGVyYXRpb24gdG8gZnVsZmlsbCBmYWN0b3J5IHJlc3RvcmUuDQo+IGUu Zy4sUmVib290IG9yIHN5c3RlbS1yZXN0YXJ0IG1pZ2h0IGJlIG5lZWRlZCBvciBub3QgbmVlZGVk LiBUaGUgcmVib290IG9yIHN5c3RlbS1yZXN0YXJ0IG1pZ2h0IGhhcHBlbiBiZWZvcmUgb3IgYWZ0 ZXIgdGhlIGRhdGFzdG9yZShzKSBhcmUgaW5pdGlhbGl6ZWQgaW50byA8ZmFjdG9yeT4sZXRjLg0K Pg0KPiAtUWluDQo+IC0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCj4g5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBCYWxhenMg TGVuZ3llbCBbbWFpbHRvOmJhbGF6cy5sZW5neWVsQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbV0NCj4g5Y+R6YCB5pe2 6Ze0OiAyMDE45bm0N+aciDPml6UgMTk6MjINCj4g5pS25Lu25Lq6OiBLZW50IFdhdHNlbjsgUWlu IFd1OyBMYWRpc2xhdiBMaG90a2E7IG5ldGNvbmZAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g5Li76aKYOiBSZTogW05l dGNvbmZdIEktRCBBY3Rpb246IGRyYWZ0LXd1LW5ldGNvbmYtcmVzdGNvbmYtZmFjdG9yeS1yZXN0 b3JlLTAwLnR4dA0KPg0KPiBpZXRmLXN5c3RlbTpzeXN0ZW0tcmVzdGFydA0KPg0KPiBJcyB0aGlz IHdoYXQgeW91IGhhdmUgYmVlbiB0aGlua2luZyBhYm91dD8NCj4gQmFsYXpzDQo+DQo+DQo+IE9u IDYvMjkvMjAxOCA3OjQzIFBNLCBLZW50IFdhdHNlbiB3cm90ZToNCj4+IHN1ZmZpY2llbnQuICAg SSdtIHVuc3VyZSB3aGljaCBwdWJsaXNoZWQgUkZDIGRlZmluZXMgdGhlICJyZWJvb3QiDQo+PiBS UEMsIGl0J3MgcG9zc2libGUgdGhhdCBub25lIGRvLg0KPj4NCj4+IEtlbnQgLy8gY29udHJpYnV0 b3INCg0KLS0gDQpCYWxhenMgTGVuZ3llbCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgRXJpY3Nzb24g SHVuZ2FyeSBMdGQuDQpTZW5pb3IgU3BlY2lhbGlzdA0KTW9iaWxlOiArMzYtNzAtMzMwLTc5MDkg ICAgICAgICAgICAgIGVtYWlsOiBCYWxhenMuTGVuZ3llbEBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb20NCg0K From nobody Tue Jul 3 19:51:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC930130DEB for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 19:51:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yQg2YdH4ephf for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 19:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1740130934 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 19:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 3ABF5539258B4 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 03:51:51 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEML424-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.41) by lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 03:51:51 +0100 Received: from DGGEML510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.6]) by dggeml424-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 10:51:40 +0800 From: Rohit R Ranade To: Qin Wu , "Zhengguangying (Walker)" CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF Thread-Index: AdQTOvQ+DGsUYeJXQ/uaFzBxunpGvAABkhag Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 02:51:39 +0000 Message-ID: <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC8F99@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.18.150.121] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC8F99dggeml510mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 02:51:56 -0000 --_000_991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC8F99dggeml510mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Wuqin / Walker, Section 1 "However which data node is applied to which configuration datastore is not specified under "action". " RFC 8342 is clear that "action" is always invoked in the context of datastore. Section 6.2: "Actions are always invoked in the context of the operational state datastore. The node for which the action is invoked MUST exist in the operational state datastore. " Is there any user scenario where config and action both MUST happen togethe= r ? If so, I feel the introduction can elaborate more on such scenario. With Regards, Rohit R Ranade From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu Sent: 04 July 2018 07:32 To: netconf@ietf.org Subject: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF Hi, Folks: We have posted inline action capability draft on Jun 28: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14823.html One comment we received from the list is: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14863.html The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment. Therefore we would like to draw you attention again on this draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01 We would like to receive more review and feedback on this draft, thanks. -Qin --_000_991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC8F99dggeml510mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Wuqi= n / Walker,

&n= bsp;

Section= 1

“However which

 =   data node is applied to which configuration datastore is not

 =   specified under "action".

”=

RFC 834= 2 is clear that “action” is always invoked in the context of &l= t;operational> datastore.

Section= 6.2:

“Actions are always invoked in the context of the operational state

   datastore.  The node for wh= ich the action is invoked MUST exist in

   the operational state datastore.

”=

&n= bsp;

Is ther= e any user scenario where config and action both MUST happen together ? If = so, I feel the introduction can elaborate more on such scenario.=

&n= bsp;

With Re= gards,

Rohit R= Ranade

&n= bsp;

From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu
Sent: 04 July 2018 07:32
To: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for = NETCONF

 

Hi, Folks:

We have posted inline action ca= pability draft on Jun 28:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/c= urrent/msg14823.html

 
One comment we received from the list is:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/cur=
rent/msg14863.html
The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment.

Therefore we would like to draw= you attention again on this draft

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zheng-n=
etconf-inline-action-capability-01

We would like to receive more r= eview and feedback on this draft, thanks.

 

-Qin

--_000_991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC8F99dggeml510mbxchi_-- From nobody Tue Jul 3 21:03:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8782F130E0A for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:03:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OVAeA30xsYFN for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m88102.mail.qiye.163.com (m88102.mail.qiye.163.com [106.2.88.102]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D321271FF for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WangajPC (unknown [219.142.69.77]) by m88102.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id 3527A4249D; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:03:01 +0800 (CST) From: "Aijun Wang" To: "'Qin Wu'" , "'Wubo \(lana\)'" , References: <520ECC8D9CA1724BA1CE492DF898F6A33176A2@DGGEMI526-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:02:58 +0800 Message-ID: <00d101d4134b$e5817ad0$b0847070$@org.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D2_01D4138E.F3A4BAD0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdQRqTdVZgjuvQxKTiOHMbgCclej/AAALLewAGdS2zA= Content-Language: zh-cn X-HM-Spam-Status: e1ktWUFJV1koWUFKTEtLSjdXWQgYFAkeWUFLVUtXWQkOFx4IWUFZMjUtOj cyP0FLVUtZBg++ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6Nwg6FRw4SjoqNkIVFUs9AQFNKxMwCxVVSlVKTkhL TUxNQkJKT0xCVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZDB4ZWUEdGhcIHldZ CAFZQUpCTUpKN1dZEgtZQVlJSkJVSk9JVU1CVUxMWQY+ X-HM-Tid: 0a6463752e619865kuuu3527a4249d Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIFJldmlldyBvZiBkcmFmdC16aGVuZy1u?= =?gb2312?b?ZXRjb25mLWlubGluZS1hY3Rpb24tY2FwYWJpbGl0eS0wMA==?= X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 04:03:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01D4138E.F3A4BAD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Qin and Walker: =20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7950#section-7.15 states the following contents: =A1=B0An action MUST NOT be defined within an rpc, another = action, or a notification, i.e., an action node MUST NOT have an rpc, action, or a notification node as one of its ancestors in the schema tree. For = example, this means that it is an error if a grouping that contains an action somewhere in its node hierarchy is used in a notification definition. = =A1=B1, but the proposal within this draft requires the combination operations within one transaction.=20 =20 How about define one new statement that is parallel with the existing = =A1=B1 action=A1=B1 statement, but can be defined within an rpc? Doing so can = lower the confusion for the associated procedures. And if we doing the above thing, we should clarify the following things: 1. What is the order to handle this new statement within other NC operations? 2. Can this new statement coexist with other NC operations besides = the =A1=B0edit-config=A1=B1 and =A1=B0edit-data=A1=B1 that proposed within = the current draft? 3. Should provide more examples for the usage of this new = statement. =20 Best Regards. =20 Aijun Wang Network R&D and Operation Support Department China Telecom Corporation Limited Beijing Research Institute,Beijing, = China. =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu [mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C22=C8=D5 10:18 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Wubo (lana); netconf@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Netconf] Review of draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-00 =20 Thanks Bo, please see reply line. =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Wubo (lana) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C22=C8=D5 10:10 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: netconf@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: [Netconf] Review of = draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-00 =20 Hi,all I like this proposal and add missing piece in NETCONF 2.0 on how to = handle action operation together with other NC operations. A few quick comments = as follows: 1.How do we identify ifstatenable within as action operation? true [Qin]: Good catch, I think we should ifstatenable element should be = include within element and use action element to identify action = operation data. 2.How do you prevent action operation from conflicting with other sub-operation within and ? =20 [Qin]:Good point, we should make sure action operation and other = operation to be executed together will not generate unexpected result. 3.I think inline action operation can also be applied to other NC/RC operations such as ,,? =20 [Qin]: Yes, that=A1=AFs correct, at this stage, we like to start from and cases. We will cover other NC/RC = operations in the later version after=20 action operation within and operation are well specified. =20 Best regards. =20 Bo =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01D4138E.F3A4BAD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, Qin and = Walker:

 

https://tools.i= etf.org/html/rfc7950#section-7.15 states the following contents: = =A1=B0An action MUST NOT be defined = within an rpc, another action, or a notification, i.e., an action node = MUST NOT have an rpc, action, or a notification node as one of its = ancestors in the schema tree.  For example, this means that it is = an error if a grouping that contains an action somewhere in its node = hierarchy is used in a notification definition. =A1=B1, but the proposal within this draft requires the combination = operations within one transaction. 
 
How about define one new statement that is parallel with the existing =
=A1=B1action=A1=B1 statement, but can be defined within an rpc? Doing so =
can lower the confusion for the associated =
procedures.
And if we doing the above thing, we should clarify the following =
things:
1.       =
What is the order to handle this new statement within other NC =
operations?
2.       =
Can this new statement coexist with other NC operations besides the =
=A1=B0edit-config=A1=B1 and =A1=B0edit-data=A1=B1 that proposed within =
the current draft?
3.       =
Should provide more examples for the usage of this new =
statement.

 

Best = Regards.

 

Aijun = Wang

Network R&D = and Operation Support Department

China Telecom = Corporation Limited Beijing Research Institute,Beijing, = China.

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu = [mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC= =E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C22=C8=D5 10:18
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Wubo (lana); = netconf@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Netconf] Review of = draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-00<= /p>

 

Thanks Bo, please = see reply line.

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org<= /a>] =B4=FA=B1=ED = Wubo = (lana)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC= =E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C22=C8=D5 10:10
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: netconf@ietf.org
=D6=F7= =CC=E2: [Netconf] = Review of = draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-00

 

H= i,all

I= like this proposal and add missing piece in NETCONF 2.0 on how to = handle action operation together with other NC operations. A few quick = comments as follows:

<= br>1.How do we identify ifstatenable within <config> as action = operation?
<config>
<ifstatenable = xc:operation=3D"action">
<enable>true<enable>=
</ifstatenable>
</config>


[Qin]: Good catch, I think we = should ifstatenable element should be include within = <action>element and use action element to identify action = operation data.

<= br>2.How do you prevent action operation from conflicting with other = sub-operation within <edit-config> and = <edit-data>?

 

[Qin]:Good point, we should = make sure action operation and other operation to be executed together = will not generate unexpected result.

<= br>3.I think inline action operation can also be applied to other NC/RC = operations such as = <get>,<get-config>,<get-data>?

 

[Qin]: Yes, = that=A1=AFs correct, at this stage, we like to start from = <edit-config> and <edit-data> cases. We will cover other = NC/RC operations in the later version after

action operation = within <edit-config> and <edit-data> operation are well = specified.

 

Best regards.

 

Bo

 

------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01D4138E.F3A4BAD0-- From nobody Tue Jul 3 21:43:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E15130E9D for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:43:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VyVvNgw9sdMy for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68FE5130E39 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id ED1DD75AA15C5 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 05:43:40 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 05:43:41 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.193]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:43:33 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Rohit R Ranade , "Zhengguangying (Walker)" CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF Thread-Index: AdQTOvQ+DGsUYeJXQ/uaFzBxunpGvAABkhagAAO3KjA= Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 04:43:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC8F99@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC8F99@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.244] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEC379Enkgeml513mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 04:43:48 -0000 --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEC379Enkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksIFJvaGk6DQq3orz+yMs6IFJvaGl0IFIgUmFuYWRlDQq3osvNyrG85DogMjAxOMTqN9TCNMjV IDEwOjUyDQrK1bz+yMs6IFFpbiBXdTsgWmhlbmdndWFuZ3lpbmcgKFdhbGtlcikNCrOty806IG5l dGNvbmZAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCtb3zOI6IFJFOiBTb2xpY2l0IGNvbW1lbnRzIG9uIGlubGluZSBhY3Rp b24gY2FwYWJpbGl0eSBmb3IgTkVUQ09ORg0KDQpIaSBXdXFpbiAvIFdhbGtlciwNCg0KU2VjdGlv biAxDQoNCqGwSG93ZXZlciB3aGljaA0KICAgZGF0YSBub2RlIGlzIGFwcGxpZWQgdG8gd2hpY2gg Y29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiBkYXRhc3RvcmUgaXMgbm90DQogICBzcGVjaWZpZWQgdW5kZXIgImFjdGlv biIuDQqhsQ0KUkZDIDgzNDIgaXMgY2xlYXIgdGhhdCChsGFjdGlvbqGxIGlzIGFsd2F5cyBpbnZv a2VkIGluIHRoZSBjb250ZXh0IG9mIDxvcGVyYXRpb25hbD4gZGF0YXN0b3JlLg0KU2VjdGlvbiA2 LjI6DQqhsEFjdGlvbnMgYXJlIGFsd2F5cyBpbnZva2VkIGluIHRoZSBjb250ZXh0IG9mIHRoZSBv cGVyYXRpb25hbCBzdGF0ZQ0KICAgZGF0YXN0b3JlLiAgVGhlIG5vZGUgZm9yIHdoaWNoIHRoZSBh Y3Rpb24gaXMgaW52b2tlZCBNVVNUIGV4aXN0IGluDQogICB0aGUgb3BlcmF0aW9uYWwgc3RhdGUg ZGF0YXN0b3JlLg0KobENCltRaW5dOiBHb29kIHF1b3RhdGlvbiwgd2UgYXJlIHN1cnByaXNlZCB0 aGUgYWN0aW9uIGRlZmluZWQgaW4gUkZDNzk1MCBpcyByZXN0cmljdGVkIHRvIGJlaW5nIGludm9r ZWQgb25seSBpbiBvcGVyYXRpb25hbCBzdGF0ZSBkYXRhc3RvcmUsDQoNCkxpbWl0IGFjdGlvbiB0 byBvcGVyYXRpb25hbCBzdGF0ZSBkYXRhc3RvcmUgaGFzIGJlbmVmaXQgdG8gYXZvaWQgb3BlcmF0 aW9uIGNvbmZsaWN0IG9uIHRoZSBzYW1lIGNvbmNlcHR1YWwgbm9kZSBpbiB0aGUgdW5kZXJseWlu Zw0KDQogZGF0YSBtb2RlbC4gYnV0IHNlZSBtb3JlIHVzZWZ1bCB0byBpbnZva2UgYWN0aW9uIG9u IGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gZGF0YXN0b3JlIGFzIHdlbGwsIGUuZy4sPHJ1bm5pbmc+Lg0KDQoNCklz IHRoZXJlIGFueSB1c2VyIHNjZW5hcmlvIHdoZXJlIGNvbmZpZyBhbmQgYWN0aW9uIGJvdGggTVVT VCBoYXBwZW4gdG9nZXRoZXIgPyBJZiBzbywgSSBmZWVsIHRoZSBpbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24gY2FuIGVs YWJvcmF0ZSBtb3JlIG9uIHN1Y2ggc2NlbmFyaW8uDQoNCg0KW1Fpbl06WWVzLCBpbnZva2luZyBh Y3Rpb24gb24gY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiBkYXRhc3RvcmUgaXMgb3VyIGtleSB1c2UgY2FzZXMsZS5n LiwgYmF0Y2ggb3BlcmF0aW9uIG9uIDEwMCBpbnRlcmZhY2VzIGFuZCBlbmFibGUgSW50ZXJmYWNl IHN0YXRpc3RpY3MgYW5kDQpUaGVuIHNldCBNVFUgdmFsdWUgdG8gYSBzcGVjaWZpYyBpbnRlcmZh Y2UuIEVuYWJsZSBpbnRlcmZhY2Ugc3RhdGlzdGljcyBvbiAxMDAgaW50ZXJmYWNlcyB3aWxsIGhh cHBlbiBmaXJzdCBhbmQgdGhlbiBNVFUgdmFsdWUgc2V0dXAuDQpUaGVzZSBvcGVyYXRpb25zIGhh dmUgbm8gY29uZmxpY3QgcmlzayBhbmQgY2FuIGV4ZWN1dGUgaW4gYW55IG9yZGVyIGluIG9uZSB0 cmFuc2FjdGlvbiwgaXQgd2lsbCBiZSBncmVhdCB0byBpbnRyb2R1Y2UgdGhpcyBtdWx0aS1zdWIg b3BlcmF0aW9ucyBpbiBvbmUgdHJhbnNhY3Rpb24uDQoNCkluIFNvbWUgb3RoZXIgY2FzZXMgd2hl biBhY3Rpb24gaXMgaW52b2tlZCBpbiBvcGVyYXRpb25hbCBzdGF0ZSBkYXRhc3RvcmUsIHdlIGNh biB1c2UgPG9wZXJhdGlvbmFsPiB0byBnZXQgbGVhcm5lZCBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uIGFuZCB0cmFu c2xhdGUgdGhlbSBpbnRvIHN0YXRpYyBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uLg0KDQpXaXRoIFJlZ2FyZHMsDQpS b2hpdCBSIFJhbmFkZQ0KDQpGcm9tOiBOZXRjb25mIFttYWlsdG86bmV0Y29uZi1ib3VuY2VzQGll dGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgUWluIFd1DQpTZW50OiAwNCBKdWx5IDIwMTggMDc6MzINClRv OiBuZXRjb25mQGlldGYub3JnPG1haWx0bzpuZXRjb25mQGlldGYub3JnPg0KU3ViamVjdDogW05l dGNvbmZdIFNvbGljaXQgY29tbWVudHMgb24gaW5saW5lIGFjdGlvbiBjYXBhYmlsaXR5IGZvciBO RVRDT05GDQoNCkhpLCBGb2xrczoNCldlIGhhdmUgcG9zdGVkIGlubGluZSBhY3Rpb24gY2FwYWJp bGl0eSBkcmFmdCBvbiBKdW4gMjg6DQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsLWFyY2hpdmUv d2ViL25ldGNvbmYvY3VycmVudC9tc2cxNDgyMy5odG1sDQoNCg0KDQpPbmUgY29tbWVudCB3ZSBy ZWNlaXZlZCBmcm9tIHRoZSBsaXN0IGlzOg0KDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsLWFy Y2hpdmUvd2ViL25ldGNvbmYvY3VycmVudC9tc2cxNDg2My5odG1sDQoNClRoZSB2LSgwMSkgaXMg dXBsb2FkZWQgdG8gYWRkcmVzcyB0aGlzIGNvbW1lbnQuDQpUaGVyZWZvcmUgd2Ugd291bGQgbGlr ZSB0byBkcmF3IHlvdSBhdHRlbnRpb24gYWdhaW4gb24gdGhpcyBkcmFmdA0KDQpodHRwczovL3Rv b2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtemhlbmctbmV0Y29uZi1pbmxpbmUtYWN0aW9uLWNhcGFi aWxpdHktMDENCldlIHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gcmVjZWl2ZSBtb3JlIHJldmlldyBhbmQgZmVlZGJh Y2sgb24gdGhpcyBkcmFmdCwgdGhhbmtzLg0KDQotUWluDQo= --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEC379Enkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, Roh= i:

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Rohit R Ranade
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C24=C8=D5 10:52
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu; Zhengguangying (Walker)
=B3=AD=CB=CD: netconf@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF

 

Hi Wuqi= n / Walker,

&n= bsp;

Section= 1

=A1=B0However which

=    data node is applied to which configuration datastore is not

=    specified under "action".

=A1=B1<= o:p>

RFC 834= 2 is clear that =A1=B0action=A1=B1 is always invoked in the context of <= operational> datastore.

Section= 6.2:

=A1=B0Actions are always invoked in the context of the operational state

   datastore.  The node for wh= ich the action is invoked MUST exist in

   the operational state datastore.=

=A1=B1<= o:p>

[Qin]: = Good quotation, we are surprised the action defined in RFC7950 is restricte= d to being invoked only in operational state datastore, 

Limit action to operation=
al state datastore has benefit to avoid operation conflict on the same conc=
eptual node in the underlying
 data model. but see more=
 useful to invoke action on configuration datastore as well, e.g.,<runni=
ng>.
 <=
/pre>

Is ther=
e any user scenario where config and action both MUST happen together ? If =
so, I feel the introduction can elaborate more on such scenario.=



&n=
bsp;


&n=
bsp;


[Qin]:Y=
es, invoking action on configuration datastore is our key use cases,e.g., b=
atch operation on 100 interfaces and enable Interface statistics and


Then se=
t MTU value to a specific interface. Enable interface statistics on 100 int=
erfaces will happen first and then MTU value setup.


These o=
perations have no conflict risk and can execute in any order in one transac=
tion, it will be great to introduce this multi-sub operations in one transa=
ction.


&n=
bsp;


In Some=
 other cases when action is invoked in operational state datastore, we can =
use <operational> to get learned configuration and translate them int=
o static configuration.


&n=
bsp;


With Re=
gards,




Rohit R=
 Ranade




&n=
bsp;






From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Qin Wu

Sent: 04 July 2018 07:32

To: netconf@ietf.org

Subject: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for =
NETCONF






 


Hi, Folks:

We have posted inline action ca=
pability draft on Jun 28:


https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/c=
urrent/msg14823.html


 


One comment we received from the list is:


https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netcon=
f/current/msg14863.html


The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment.


Therefore we would like to draw=
 you attention again on this draft


https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zh=
eng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01


We would like to receive more r=
eview and feedback on this draft, thanks.


 


-Qin
--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEC379Enkgeml513mbxchi_-- From nobody Tue Jul 3 23:01:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606E4130DDF for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:01:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uqGg4nCi7cZW for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02176130DD7 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 69AF574864A70 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:01:13 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.39) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:01:14 +0100 Received: from DGGEML510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.6]) by DGGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::b177:a243:7a69:5ab8%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:01:03 +0800 From: Rohit R Ranade To: Qin Wu CC: "netconf@ietf.org" , "Zhengguangying (Walker)" Thread-Topic: Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF Thread-Index: AdQTOvQ+DGsUYeJXQ/uaFzBxunpGvAABkhagAAO3KjAAAum+QA== Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 06:01:02 +0000 Message-ID: <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC90C8@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC8F99@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.18.150.121] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC90C8dggeml510mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 06:01:22 -0000 --_000_991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC90C8dggeml510mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Qin]:Yes, invoking action on configuration datastore is our key use cases,= e.g., batch operation on 100 interfaces and enable Interface statistics and Then set MTU value to a specific interface. Enable interface statistics on = 100 interfaces will happen first and then MTU value setup. These operations have no conflict risk and can execute in any order in one = transaction, it will be great to introduce this multi-sub operations in one= transaction. [Rohit R Ranade] But why must this happen in single transaction ? If done a= s two separate RPC what is the impact ? In Some other cases when action is invoked in operational state datastore, = we can use to get learned configuration and translate them in= to static configuration. [Rohit R Ranade] We can still do this. We can get learned configuration fro= m , and if need to translate to static we can always create su= ch configuration in With Regards, Rohit R Ranade From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu Sent: 04 July 2018 07:32 To: netconf@ietf.org Subject: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF Hi, Folks: We have posted inline action capability draft on Jun 28: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14823.html One comment we received from the list is: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14863.html The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment. Therefore we would like to draw you attention again on this draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01 We would like to receive more review and feedback on this draft, thanks. -Qin --_000_991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC90C8dggeml510mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

[Qin]:Y= es, invoking action on configuration datastore is our key use cases,e.g., b= atch operation on 100 interfaces and enable Interface statistics and

Then se= t MTU value to a specific interface. Enable interface statistics on 100 int= erfaces will happen first and then MTU value setup.

These o= perations have no conflict risk and can execute in any order in one transac= tion, it will be great to introduce this multi-sub operations in one transa= ction.

[= Rohit R Ranade] But why must this happen in single transaction ? If done as= two separate RPC what is the impact ?

&n= bsp;

In Some= other cases when action is invoked in operational state datastore, we can = use <operational> to get learned configuration and translate them int= o static configuration.

[= Rohit R Ranade] We can still do this. We can get learned configuration from= <operational>, and if need to translate to static we can always crea= te such configuration in <running>

&n= bsp;

With Re= gards,

Rohit R= Ranade

&n= bsp;

From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu
Sent: 04 July 2018 07:32
To: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for = NETCONF

 

Hi, Folks:

We have posted inline action ca= pability draft on Jun 28:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/c= urrent/msg14823.html

 
One comment we received from the list is:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netcon=
f/current/msg14863.html
The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment.

Therefore we would like to draw= you attention again on this draft

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zh=
eng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01

We would like to receive more r= eview and feedback on this draft, thanks.

 

-Qin

--_000_991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC90C8dggeml510mbxchi_-- From nobody Tue Jul 3 23:12:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDFDC130DEF for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:12:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wn-xt7bHdN01 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5E1B130DD7 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 7855B6EE3CCAF for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:11:55 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:11:56 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.193]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:11:41 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Aijun Wang , "Wubo (lana)" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Review of draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-00 Thread-Index: AdQRqTdVZgjuvQxKTiOHMbgCclej/AAALLewAGdS2zAABK/MsA== Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 06:11:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <520ECC8D9CA1724BA1CE492DF898F6A33176A2@DGGEMI526-MBX.china.huawei.com> <00d101d4134b$e5817ad0$b0847070$@org.cn> 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Thanks Aijun for valuable comments, please see my reply inline be= low.

 

-Qin

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Aijun W= ang [mailto:wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C24=C8=D5 12:03
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu; Wubo (lana); netconf@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Netconf] Review of draft-zheng= -netconf-inline-action-capability-00

 

Hi, Qin and Walker:

 

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7950#sectio=
n-7.15 states the following contents: =A1=B0An action MUST NOT be defined withi=
n an rpc, another action, or a notification, i.e., an action node MUST NOT =
have an rpc, action, or a notification node as one of its ancestors in the =
schema tree.  For example, this means that it is an error if a groupin=
g that contains an action somewhere in its node hierarchy is used in a noti=
fication definition. =A1=
=B1, but the proposal within this draft requires the combination operations=
 within one transaction. 
 

[Qin]: I am not worried abou=
t your quoted statement, since this statement is only applied to all user d=
efined rpc, action and notification. kernel state RPC such as <edit-conf=
ig>,<copy-config><get><get-data> are all kenernel stat=
e operations and should not be restricted by this statement.


 

How about define one new sta=
tement that is parallel with the existing =A1=B1action=A1=B1 statement, but=
 can be defined within an rpc? Doing so can lower the confusion for the ass=
ociated procedures.


 

[Qin]: See the above argumen=
t.


 

And if we doing the above th=
ing, we should clarify the following things:


1.       What is the order to handle this ne=
w statement within other NC operations?


[Qin]: The order of differen=
t sub-operation doesn=A1=AFt matter, since 2 phase commit transaction will =
take care of this.


2.       Can this new statement coexist with=
 other NC operations besides the =A1=B0edit-config=A1=B1 and =A1=B0edit-dat=
a=A1=B1 that proposed within the current draft?


[Qin]: Yes, I think this ope=
ration can coexist with <copy-config><validate> as well.


3.       Should provide more examples for th=
e usage of this new statement.


[Qin]: We have one example in the draft right now, yes, we can pr=
ovide additional examples if needed.


Best Re=
gards.


&n=
bsp;


Aijun W=
ang


Network=
 R&D and Operation Support Department


China T=
elecom Corporation Limited Beijing Research Institute,Beijing, China.<=
/o:p>






=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu =
[mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com]


=B7=A2=
=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C22=C8=D5
 10:18

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Wubo (lana); 
netconf@ietf.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Netconf] Review of draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-00






 


Thanks Bo, please see reply line.






=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Netconf=
 [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.o=
rg]
=B4=FA=
=B1=ED Wubo (lana)

=B7=A2=
=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C22=C8=D5
 10:10

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 
netconf@ietf.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Netconf] Review of draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-00






 


Hi,all


I like this proposal and add missing piece=
 in NETCONF 2.0 on how to handle action operation together with
 other NC operations. A few quick comments as follows:





1.How do we identify ifstatenable within <config> as action operation=
?

<config>

<ifstatenable xc:operation=3D"action">

<enable>true<enable>

</ifstatenable>

</config>






[Qin]: Good catch, I think we should=
 ifstatenable element should be include within <action>element and us=
e action element to identify action operation
 data.




2.How do you prevent action operation from conflicting with other sub-opera=
tion within <edit-config> and <edit-data>?


 


[Qin]:Good point, we should make sur=
e action operation and other operation to be executed together will not gen=
erate unexpected result.




3.I think inline action operation can also be applied to other NC/RC operat=
ions such as <get>,<get-config>,<get-data>?


 <=
/span>


[Qin]: Yes, that=A1=AFs correct, at this stage, we like to start =
from <edit-config> and <edit-data> cases. We will cover other N=
C/RC operations in the later version after



action operation within <edit-config> and <edit-data>=
 operation are well specified.


 


Best regards.=



 


Bo


 
--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEC38F2nkgeml513mbxchi_-- From nobody Tue Jul 3 23:18:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21CED130DD7 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:18:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s4kwH98uAnsN for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24736130E2D for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id DD41FC03A8B69 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:18:40 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.73) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:18:41 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.193]) by nkgeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:18:31 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Rohit R Ranade CC: "netconf@ietf.org" , "Zhengguangying (Walker)" Thread-Topic: Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF Thread-Index: AdQTOvQ+DGsUYeJXQ/uaFzBxunpGvAABkhagAAO3KjAAAum+QAAAi6mg Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 06:18:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC8F99@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC90C8@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC90C8@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.244] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Rohit R Ranade
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C24=C8=D5 14:01
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu
=B3=AD=CB=CD: netconf@ietf.org; Zhengguangying (Walker)
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

[Qin]:Y= es, invoking action on configuration datastore is our key use cases,e.g., b= atch operation on 100 interfaces and enable Interface statistics and

Then se= t MTU value to a specific interface. Enable interface statistics on 100 int= erfaces will happen first and then MTU value setup.

These o= perations have no conflict risk and can execute in any order in one transac= tion, it will be great to introduce this multi-sub operations in one transa= ction.

[= Rohit R Ranade] But why must this happen in single transaction ? If done as= two separate RPC what is the impact ?

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

[Qin]: = Improve transaction efficiency is one of important motivations. Separate ac= tion from <edit-config> operation, you still need to handle action th= at is part of <config> element within

<edi= t-config> operation.

&n= bsp;

In Some= other cases when action is invoked in operational state datastore, we can = use <operational> to get learned configuration and translate them int= o static configuration.

[= Rohit R Ranade] We can still do this. We can get learned configuration from= <operational>, and if need to translate to static we can always crea= te such configuration in <running>

&n= bsp;

[Qin]:H= ave we already had standard mechanism to translate learned into static? I s= ee none.

&n= bsp;

With Re= gards,

Rohit R= Ranade

&n= bsp;

From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu
Sent: 04 July 2018 07:32
To: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for = NETCONF

 

Hi, Folks:

We have posted inline action ca= pability draft on Jun 28:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/c= urrent/msg14823.html

 
One comment we received from the list is:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netcon=
f/current/msg14863.html
The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment.

Therefore we would like to draw= you attention again on this draft

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zh=
eng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01

We would like to receive more r= eview and feedback on this draft, thanks.

 

-Qin

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Hello Kent,

I was reading draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-05. I noticed that in the groupings
local-or-keystore-end-entity-certificate-grouping, local-or-keystore-asymmetric-key-grouping and local-or-keystore-asymmetric-key-with-certs-grouping 
the keystore case is qualified with an
if-feature "keystore-implemented"
statement. However the local case is not qualified with if-feature. In ,many of our network nodes we want to implement a central keystore, and do NOT want to allow local security configuration. So please add
if-feature "not keystore-implemented"
or
if-feature "local-keystore-allowed"
to the local case of these groupings.

regards Balazs Lengyel

-- 
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com
From nobody Wed Jul 4 12:40:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 133B913106F for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:40:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E9LCH58TJWGF for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22d.google.com (mail-lf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDD3E12D7F8 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id i15-v6so5120642lfc.2 for ; Wed, 04 Jul 2018 12:40:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gHiWiY5J9Ik50LqUs6QHnEKBxrEs3jghenXTTxJRrMo=; b=Hg2piZRbDMB3WGlCqFMVmxTN8Y8wWmLET8x1GbihiYaxp9lFp9E/tWFpyN46m/JPSl qDXohv1R1V8ecXUCZujLhh6Ai+pYX38brtKjbjsZJtSK2Vk7Glty51NJDIuLAe/cNsMl tM2xBI1rhpsezrN74ynWjAW08jFMHc5ayxjwFXOc6CCuy8Q0Yk5eU2FDgiore0oWIPDE KAFR0Uu4NNdNZRf9OYYFuRcEgXS+g0dkfXPp5YjbWvlUNu03j/LI9lrYiBEAYgHcQBuy xN5Vmg9Et+ly+tyB1368ziJbKXHv/o48MP73nOiomRpZs79wIsgd+Fki+SF45DmkEW4Z HRrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gHiWiY5J9Ik50LqUs6QHnEKBxrEs3jghenXTTxJRrMo=; b=nCDmqebb7LjfisB/p21Ipsxh7upJSvIsWNMYszIFubvcp4avWDZP6E2qoMn857HteY nVnB3iaBz+OPzJ/VEX+2rLSJmpafgTSN7pvYgk0vaRtpYVxIHUrY/TJR7WI+zgzUpHzl TLEKx0zdFnQBzfJ+6pqDaGBRT9HT1v5XR0E5K1Si6KfJTHoWC35xkGAEEG0hC+aoIFJN J7WNk/aYTZ2IOG6Ps5rI+Qn+3ENaCXbrCqh30QbBOMvIGInCIFFeD5wxJuQ6x8GYPgu7 kPAhHXHmV4erlPLW/+rJnyhAyyGTHHiis62HkOiByEkW9I6ovCsMvDEs4peLUhmDphGg KdhA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0CK9v29FNNwDSYQZa9BpdzE9BFklE925ezy9P3KBs4cSzBrCK/ WrX5TUHf8CDmHEfVLynOTHvjGfCaBTl+kZtMkiJjNg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpc8wnmT+TSuzxRN4BUtB0dZUeS2xa/jD8vDs5zghAmfXpJ+pkKUm+W7O7TIR49vhfMSH16pLB0mik7cqXOKKGc= X-Received: by 2002:a19:b598:: with SMTP id g24-v6mr2399926lfk.129.1530733219907; Wed, 04 Jul 2018 12:40:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:40:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:40:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Henk Birkholz , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d1a19005703199fe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 19:40:27 -0000 --000000000000d1a19005703199fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > Since folks are leaning towards: > > > > dynamic: MUST > > configured: MAY > > > > We might also consider: > > > > dynamic: MUST > > configured: TBD > > > > Since the transport bindings (only needed for configured subscriptions) > seem to depend on the client/server drafts, which aren't ready yet. > > > The "receiver" list is rather proprietary since it has nothing in it about where or how to send packets, such as the destination socket, protocol, or message encoding. I don't see how configured subscriptions are useful as a standard without these details. Kent // contributor > > > Andy > > > > > On 7/2/18, 6:50 PM, "Eric Voit (evoit)" wrote: > > > > I am closing this question. All votes are for Option 2, which is > reflected in the current draft. > > > Eric > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM > > > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > To be clear, we=E2=80=99re discussing conformance requirements. Options = are: > > > > 1: dynamic: MAY > > configured: MAY > > > > 2: dynamic: MUST > > configured: MAY > > > > > > > > I support this option (I think this is in the draft now). > > The configured subscriptions are likely less interoperable at this point > because > > the protocol, transport, and encoding could be proprietary. There are al= so > > call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means plain call-home, > > magic port Y means subscription call-home). > > > > The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by the NETCONF or > RESTCONF > > protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent across server > implementations. > > > > There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in addition to edit-config= . > > (As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not introduce parameters > > that are not already in the configured subscriptions. > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > 3: dynamic: MAY > > configured: MUST > > > > 4: dynamic: MUST > > configured: MUST > > > > I don=E2=80=99t really care, as long as there is a good reason for it. > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > On Jun 24, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Henk Birkholz de> wrote: > > Hello all, > > this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but maybe I am missing > something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of netconf. > > In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "only Configured > Subscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a strong yes wrt > "Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional feature". > > Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should support resilient > rendezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am aware of call home and thi= s > seems to be an excellent lightweight basis to build more complex solution= s > on that will benefit significantly from available dynamic subscription > features. > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > Henk > > On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Voit (evoit)" 40cisco.com > > @dmarc.ietf.org > > > wrote: > > Per below, Kent is interested to know if anyone wants to support a > Publisher of just Configured Subscriptions. This would turn Dynamic > Subscriptions into an optional feature. > > > > So does anyone want this? If a few people say yes, I will tweak the > document. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > I understand that supporting dynamic subscriptions is currently a > requirement. I am challenging that requirement. Why is it a requirement= ? > Does it have to be a requirement? > > > > What if an IoT device only wants to support configured subscriptions and > having code to support dynamic is wasting space? FWIW, I realize that > not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it would be impossib= le > to filling in gaps introduced by a reboot, but maybe that's a decision th= at > the vendor can/should make for themselves? > > > > In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic subscriptions. So support > for that older spec by definition makes dynamic subscriptions mandatory. > Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-7923 as well as sections of > other documents like RFC-7921, section 7.6 identify dynamic subscriptions > as mandatory for a subscription service. So at least some use cases exis= t > where such dynamic support is mandatory. > > > > Does it? I mean, this draft doesn't obsolete 5277, so it seems > that server can optionally support one or the other or both, and when it > supports this draft, can't it use a feature statement to limit dynamic > subscriptions? > > > > Per below, I am ok to make dynamic subscription support optional > (even if I don=E2=80=99t believe this is the right decision). Part of th= e fix in > the YANG Model description text would be to note that either dynamic or > configured must be supported. > > > > With your IoT publisher use case above you are asserting that dynamic > subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription only publishers = =E2=80=93 > i.e., there are a class of publishers which have been driven by use cases > not considered by the documents referenced above. So who has documented > the need configured subscription only publishers? I can=E2=80=99t point= to such > documentation (beyond IoT case above). Is such a possibility worth slowi= ng > down this spec? In the end making the fix for this specification whic= h > you seem to want is itself really quite trivial: we can make both dynamic > and configured subscriptions optional. The reason I have been resisting = it > is that this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers as ye= t > another feature would have to be advertised as optional, (b) this waters > down the mandatory capabilities support of the YANG module, and (c) we > would need to include some a constraint that at least one of the two > optional features needs to be supported. Also for (c) AFAIK, features > don=E2=80=99t support the application of such constraints, so it would ha= ve to be > done in the feature descriptions themselves. > > > > I guess the text above is a long way of saying that if you assert the > optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress the document, I wi= ll > make the change. But the change will impose complexity costs which to me > are hard to justify. > > > > why don't you ask the WG? "Should we support servers having onl= y > configured subscriptions (i.e. no dynamic subscriptions)?" FWIW, the > ietf-*conf-server modules have features around both the "listen" and > "call-home" subtrees. Heck, you might think "listen" would be mandatory > (per RFC 6241), but still we support the possibility of a server only > supporting call-home=E2=80=A6 > > > > > > > > that's a reasonable answer, but mind you that it was your IoT > use-case originally. I'd like to get other opinions. Yes, trivial to a= dd > now, hard to add later, more flexibility for servers, almost no additiona= l > effort for clients. FWIW, I'm planning to add a feature statement for > "periodic connections" in the ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts > for similar reasons, that the server just might not want to support them, > and I don't want the minimal bar to be higher than needed. > > > > Lets go with whatever opinions people have. I will adapt > accordingly. Do you want me to start an independent thread? > > yes, please ask the WG > > > > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > --000000000000d1a19005703199fe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

Since folks are = leaning towards:

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=C2=A0 dyn= amic: MUST

=C2=A0=C2=A0 con= figured: MAY

=C2=A0=

We might also co= nsider:

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=C2=A0 dyn= amic: MUST

=C2=A0=C2=A0 con= figured: TBD

=C2=A0=

Since the transp= ort bindings (only needed for configured subscriptions) seem to depend on t= he client/server drafts, which aren't ready yet.

=C2=A0


The "receiver&quo= t; list is rather proprietary since it has nothing in it about where or how= to send packets,
such as the destination socket, protocol, or me= ssage encoding.
I don't see how configured subscriptions are = useful as a standard without these details.


Kent // contribu= tor

=C2=A0



Andy
=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

I am closing this question.=C2=A0 All votes are for Option 2= , which is reflected in the current draft.


Eric

=C2=A0

From: A= ndy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM


=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

=C2=A0

To be clear, we=E2=80=99re discussing conformance re= quirements.=C2=A0 Options are:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A01: dynamic: MAY

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured: MAY=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A02: dynamic: MUST

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MAY

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I support this option (I think this is in the draft = now).

The configured subscriptions are likely less interop= erable at this point because

the protocol, transport, and encoding could be propr= ietary.=C2=A0 There are also

call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means pla= in call-home,

magic port Y means subscription call-home).

=C2=A0

The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by= the NETCONF or RESTCONF

protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent acr= oss server implementations.

=C2=A0

There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in ad= dition to edit-config.

(As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not = introduce parameters

that are not already in the configured subscriptions= .

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A03: dynamic: MAY

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MUST<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A04: dynamic: MUST

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MUST<= u>

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t really care, as long as there is a g= ood reason for it.

=C2=A0

Kent // contributor

=C2=A0

Hello all,

this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but maybe I am missi= ng something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of netconf.

In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "only Configured Su= bscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a strong yes wrt &q= uot;Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional feature".
Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should support resilient ren= dezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am aware of call home and this see= ms to be an excellent lightweight basis to build more complex solutions on = that will benefit significantly from available dynamic subscription features.

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk

On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Vo= it (evoit)" <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Per below, Kent is int= erested to know if anyone wants to support a Publisher of just Configured S= ubscriptions.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This would turn Dynamic Subscriptions into an optional feature.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So does anyone want th= is?=C2=A0 If a few people say yes, I will tweak the document.=

=C2=A0

Eric<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Kent8> I understand that supporting dynamic s= ubscriptions is currently a requirement.=C2=A0 I am challenging that requir= ement.=C2=A0 Why is it a requirement?=C2=A0 Does it have to be a requiremen= t?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

What if an IoT device only wants to support configur= ed subscriptions and having code to support dynamic is wasting space? =C2= =A0=C2=A0 FWIW, I realize that not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it would be impossible to filling in gaps introduced by a = reboot, but maybe that's a decision that the vendor can/should make for= themselves?=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Eric9> In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic s= ubscriptions.=C2=A0 So support for that older spec by definition makes dyna= mic subscriptions mandatory.=C2=A0 Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-7923 as well as sections of other documents like RFC-7921, sectio= n 7.6 identify dynamic subscriptions as mandatory for a subscription servic= e.=C2=A0 So at least some use cases exist where such dynamic support is man= datory.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Kent9> Does it?=C2=A0=C2=A0 I mean, this draf= t doesn't obsolete 5277, so it seems that server can optionally support= one or the other or both, and when it supports this draft, can't it us= e a feature statement to limit dynamic subscriptions?

=C2=A0

<Eric10> Per below, I am ok to make dynamic su= bscription support optional (even if I don=E2=80=99t believe this is the ri= ght decision).=C2=A0 Part of the fix in the YANG Model description text would be to note that either dynamic or configured must be supported.

=C2=A0

With your IoT publisher use case above you are asser= ting that dynamic subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription = only publishers =E2=80=93 i.e., there are a class of publishers which have been driven by use cases not considered by the documents refere= nced above.=C2=A0 So who has documented the need configured subscription on= ly publishers? =C2=A0=C2=A0I can=E2=80=99t point to such documentation (bey= ond IoT case above).=C2=A0 Is such a possibility worth slowing down this spec?=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0In the end making the fix for this= specification which you seem to want is itself really quite trivial: we ca= n make both dynamic and configured subscriptions optional.=C2=A0 The reason= I have been resisting it is that this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers as yet another feature would have to b= e advertised as optional, (b) this waters down the mandatory capabilities s= upport of the YANG module, and (c) we would need to include some a constrai= nt that at least one of the two optional features needs to be supported.=C2=A0 Also for (c) AFAIK, feature= s don=E2=80=99t support the application of such constraints, so it would ha= ve to be done in the feature descriptions themselves.

=C2=A0

I guess the text above is a long way of saying that = if you assert the optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress th= e document, I will make the change.=C2=A0 But the change will impose complexity costs which to me are hard to justify.

=C2=A0

<Kent10> why don't you ask the WG? =C2=A0&= quot;Should we support servers having only configured subscriptions (i.e. n= o dynamic subscriptions)?"=C2=A0 FWIW, the ietf-*conf-server modules h= ave features around both the "listen" and "call-home" subtrees.=C2= =A0 Heck, you might think "listen" would be mandatory (per RFC 62= 41), but still we support the possibility of a server only supporting call-= home=E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Kent9> that's a reasonable answer, but mi= nd you that it was your IoT use-case originally. =C2=A0=C2=A0I'd like t= o get other opinions.=C2=A0 Yes, trivial to add now, hard to add later, mor= e flexibility for servers, almost no additional effort for clients.=C2=A0 FWIW, I'm = planning to add a feature statement for "periodic connections" in= the ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts for similar reasons, tha= t the server just might not want to support them, and I don't want the minimal bar to be higher than needed.

=C2=A0

<Eric10> Lets g= o with whatever opinions people have.=C2=A0 I will adapt accordingly.=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Do you want me to start an independent thread?

<Kent10> yes, please ask the WG

=C2=A0


= --
Sent from my Android device wi= th K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/netconf

=C2=A0


--000000000000d1a19005703199fe-- From nobody Wed Jul 4 13:04:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20812130DE7 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 13:04:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.52 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pfOADRyPHvEx for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 13:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EA4B130DD6 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 13:04:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=53786; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530734683; x=1531944283; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=oeLqBJ9WNRBEIuycyq6buz4CBfO6s9M7b3HHeDDV//s=; b=jgYSkxwIs25a3W9zbklYzigNkv6XFhJ5G5hY24uGleORtdI95mziFoV3 4W6b6diEYow4Sxxjxr6YX0vnzLVdVqHVl6VXe02d75PTJ2i6e1D64xq7p EqrE6H2GPOw0e0/Hk637Ym1ETuPJ5ynof1bprYK2KoX0/x37/xKTTcKqy Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DHAAC+Jz1b/5tdJa1SChkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGCU3ZifygKg3CIBIw0ggd1lDiBdwMLGAEJhARGAheCDSE?= =?us-ascii?q?0GAECAQECAQECbRwMhTYBAQEEAQEhCkEJAhACAQYCFRATAQIEAwICAiULFBE?= =?us-ascii?q?CBA4FCBODBoEbZA+Mb5tIghyIS4E6iG2BVj+BD4JaBy6DGAEBAhiBGwUGAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?IHQcJHwiCQ4JVAplMCQKGBIkSgUhDg0mIC4o1hy0CERMBgSQdOIFScBU7gmk?= =?us-ascii?q?JgWtYgzSFFIU+bwEBjxwOF4EIgRoBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,308,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="138927092" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 04 Jul 2018 20:04:42 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (xch-rtp-011.cisco.com [64.101.220.151]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w64K4fvl015699 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 4 Jul 2018 20:04:41 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 16:04:40 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 16:04:40 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Andy Bierman CC: Henk Birkholz , "netconf@ietf.org" , Kent Watsen Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) Thread-Index: AQHUC7Bk2NEfjxedcUmM/mAqvL2qMaRxMGsAgABNWwCACxi18IABmkaAgAGYmoD//77DcA== Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 20:04:40 +0000 Message-ID: <2707704d84354cb784e0d2ae001bc599@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2707704d84354cb784e0d2ae001bc599XCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:04:47 -0000 --_000_2707704d84354cb784e0d2ae001bc599XCHRTP013ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbTogQW5keSBCaWVybWFuLCBKdWx5IDQsIDIwMTggMzo0MCBQTQ0KDQpPbiBUdWUsIEp1bCAz LCAyMDE4IGF0IDEyOjE3IFBNLCBLZW50IFdhdHNlbiA8a3dhdHNlbkBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldDxtYWls dG86a3dhdHNlbkBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldD4+IHdyb3RlOg0KU2luY2UgZm9sa3MgYXJlIGxlYW5pbmcg dG93YXJkczoNCg0KICAgZHluYW1pYzogTVVTVA0KICAgY29uZmlndXJlZDogTUFZDQoNCldlIG1p Z2h0IGFsc28gY29uc2lkZXI6DQoNCiAgIGR5bmFtaWM6IE1VU1QNCiAgIGNvbmZpZ3VyZWQ6IFRC RA0KDQpTaW5jZSB0aGUgdHJhbnNwb3J0IGJpbmRpbmdzIChvbmx5IG5lZWRlZCBmb3IgY29uZmln dXJlZCBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zKSBzZWVtIHRvIGRlcGVuZCBvbiB0aGUgY2xpZW50L3NlcnZlciBk 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DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIiBzdHlsZT0ibXNvLW1hcmdpbi10b3AtYWx0OmF1dG87bXNv LW1hcmdpbi1ib3R0b20tYWx0OmF1dG8iPiZuYnNwOzxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8 L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPHAg Y2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0K PC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_2707704d84354cb784e0d2ae001bc599XCHRTP013ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Jul 4 13:15:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425EF13108C for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 13:15:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h3uU8VIK3jzP for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 13:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D72D12F295 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 13:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id F2BD322DCF5C; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 22:15:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 22:15:18 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Andy Bierman , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180704201518.el3v4gsay43i7bhm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Andy Bierman , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <2707704d84354cb784e0d2ae001bc599@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2707704d84354cb784e0d2ae001bc599@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:15:23 -0000 On Wed, Jul 04, 2018 at 08:04:40PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > The open question here is whether we mandate the NETCONF call-home work as a dependency. If the WG wishes, we could close WGLC on Subscribed-notifications and YANG-push, and leave just NETCONF-Notif open until ietf-netconf-server completes. But the downside would be that it would leave NETCONF transport for dynamic subscriptions undefined. > Who is behind the NAT? (a) notification generator (b) notification receiver (c) both For which scenario is NETCONF call-home needed? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Jul 5 07:55:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A44130E84 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 07:55:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=eBD2ol57; 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(was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 14:55:58 -0000

We would need dynamic subscriptions with Netconf transport yesterday, so for me the best solution is whatever delivers this soon. 
How about spiting just the Netconf transport draft into a document that is good enough for dynamic subscriptions, and later updating that to include configured subscriptions too. Would that be possible? Faster?

Configured subscriptions are less important for us.

regards Balazs


On 7/4/2018 9:40 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:


On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

Since folks are leaning towards:

 

   dynamic: MUST

   configured: MAY

 

We might also consider:

 

   dynamic: MUST

   configured: TBD

 

Since the transport bindings (only needed for configured subscriptions) seem to depend on the client/server drafts, which aren't ready yet.

 


The "receiver" list is rather proprietary since it has nothing in it about where or how to send packets,
such as the destination socket, protocol, or message encoding.
I don't see how configured subscriptions are useful as a standard without these details.


Kent // contributor

 



Andy
 

 

 

On 7/2/18, 6:50 PM, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:

 

I am closing this question.  All votes are for Option 2, which is reflected in the current draft.


Eric

 

From: Andy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM


 

On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

 

To be clear, we’re discussing conformance requirements.  Options are:

 

   1: dynamic: MAY

       configured: MAY

 

   2: dynamic: MUST

        configured: MAY

 

 

 

I support this option (I think this is in the draft now).

The configured subscriptions are likely less interoperable at this point because

the protocol, transport, and encoding could be proprietary.  There are also

call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means plain call-home,

magic port Y means subscription call-home).

 

The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by the NETCONF or RESTCONF

protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent across server implementations.

 

There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in addition to edit-config.

(As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not introduce parameters

that are not already in the configured subscriptions..

 

Andy

 

 

 

   3: dynamic: MAY

        configured: MUST

 

   4: dynamic: MUST

        configured: MUST

 

I don’t really care, as long as there is a good reason for it.

 

Kent // contributor

 


On Jun 24, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

Hello all,

this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but maybe I am missing something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of netconf.

In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "only Configured Subscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a strong yes wrt "Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional feature".

Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should support resilient rendezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am aware of call home and this seems to be an excellent lightweight basis to build more complex solutions on that will benefit significantly from available dynamic subscription features.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Per below, Kent is interested to know if anyone wants to support a Publisher of just Configured Subscriptions.   This would turn Dynamic Subscriptions into an optional feature.  

 

So does anyone want this?  If a few people say yes, I will tweak the document.

 

Eric

 

 

 

 

<Kent8> I understand that supporting dynamic subscriptions is currently a requirement.  I am challenging that requirement.  Why is it a requirement?  Does it have to be a requirement? 

 

What if an IoT device only wants to support configured subscriptions and having code to support dynamic is wasting space?    FWIW, I realize that not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it would be impossible to filling in gaps introduced by a reboot, but maybe that's a decision that the vendor can/should make for themselves?  

 

<Eric9> In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic subscriptions.  So support for that older spec by definition makes dynamic subscriptions mandatory.  Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-7923 as well as sections of other documents like RFC-7921, section 7.6 identify dynamic subscriptions as mandatory for a subscription service.  So at least some use cases exist where such dynamic support is mandatory. 

 

<Kent9> Does it?   I mean, this draft doesn't obsolete 5277, so it seems that server can optionally support one or the other or both, and when it supports this draft, can't it use a feature statement to limit dynamic subscriptions?

 

<Eric10> Per below, I am ok to make dynamic subscription support optional (even if I don’t believe this is the right decision).  Part of the fix in the YANG Model description text would be to note that either dynamic or configured must be supported.

 

With your IoT publisher use case above you are asserting that dynamic subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription only publishers – i.e., there are a class of publishers which have been driven by use cases not considered by the documents referenced above.  So who has documented the need configured subscription only publishers?   I can’t point to such documentation (beyond IoT case above).  Is such a possibility worth slowing down this spec?     In the end making the fix for this specification which you seem to want is itself really quite trivial: we can make both dynamic and configured subscriptions optional.  The reason I have been resisting it is that this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers as yet another feature would have to be advertised as optional, (b) this waters down the mandatory capabilities support of the YANG module, and (c) we would need to include some a constraint that at least one of the two optional features needs to be supported.  Also for (c) AFAIK, features don’t support the application of such constraints, so it would have to be done in the feature descriptions themselves.

 

I guess the text above is a long way of saying that if you assert the optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress the document, I will make the change.  But the change will impose complexity costs which to me are hard to justify.

 

<Kent10> why don't you ask the WG?  "Should we support servers having only configured subscriptions (i.e. no dynamic subscriptions)?"  FWIW, the ietf-*conf-server modules have features around both the "listen" and "call-home" subtrees.  Heck, you might think "listen" would be mandatory (per RFC 6241), but still we support the possibility of a server only supporting call-home…

 

 

 

<Kent9> that's a reasonable answer, but mind you that it was your IoT use-case originally.   I'd like to get other opinions.  Yes, trivial to add now, hard to add later, more flexibility for servers, almost no additional effort for clients.  FWIW, I'm planning to add a feature statement for "periodic connections" in the ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts for similar reasons, that the server just might not want to support them, and I don't want the minimal bar to be higher than needed.

 

<Eric10> Lets go with whatever opinions people have.  I will adapt accordingly.   Do you want me to start an independent thread?

<Kent10> yes, please ask the WG

 


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-- 
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com
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Would a Restconf binary encoding be interesting? Chapter 2) - A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be good. What is the top XML element that will be encoded? , , , ? Just referencing a figure in another draft is not enough. - SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for the XML encoding? Is that always implicit? State it. 4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here? I would think that all encodings need some official reference, defining how they are used with YANG: RFC, web link Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere or do we need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case. regards Balazs -- Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. 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<14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:07:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Balazs Lengyel Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e27ae3057042bc30" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:07:07 -0000 --000000000000e27ae3057042bc30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I think the first-order issue is for the WG to decide if there is a problem to be solved by this WG, and if so, what is the problem scope. Details like the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply, etc do not really impact that decision. When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in improving the efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bierman-netconf-efficiency-extensions-00 I think this draft should focus on the protocol mechanisms and not define any media types. Definitions of GPB and other formats are not trivial and need their own RFCs. Andy On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel wrote: > Hello, > Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary encoding be > interesting? > > Chapter 2) > > - A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be good. > What is the top XML element that will be encoded? , , > , ? Just referencing a figure in another draft is > not enough. > > - SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for the XML > encoding? Is that always implicit? State it. > > 4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here? > > I would think that all encodings need some official reference, defining > how they are used with YANG: RFC, web link > > Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere or do > we need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case. > > regards Balazs > > > > > > -- > Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. > Senior Specialist > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --000000000000e27ae3057042bc30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I think the first-order issue is fo= r the WG to decide if there is a problem to be
solved by this WG,= and if so, what is the problem scope.

Details lik= e the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply, etc do not really impact that dec= ision.

When I brought up this issue 5 years ago th= ere was zero interest in improving the
efficiency of NETCONF. May= be YANG Push will change that POV.


I think this draft should focus on the protocol m= echanisms and not define
any media types. Definitions of GPB and = other formats are not trivial and need
their own RFCs.
=

Andy


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hello,
Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary encoding be intere= sting?

Chapter 2)

- A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be good. Wha= t is the top XML element that will be encoded? <rpc>, <RPC-reply&g= t;, <RPC-error>, <notification> ? Just referencing a figure in = another draft is not enough.

- SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for the XML en= coding? Is that always implicit? State it.

4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here?

I would think that all encodings need some official reference, defining how= they are used with YANG: RFC, web link

Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere or do w= e need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case.

regards Balazs





--
Balazs Lengyel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ema= il: Balazs= .Lengyel@ericsson.com

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

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(was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) Thread-Index: AQHUC7Bk2NEfjxedcUmM/mAqvL2qMaRxMGsAgABNWwCACxi18IABmkaAgAGYmoCAAULPAP//0YNQ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:17:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_a8dfdce9e6c04721ab9e5cdb8534bc04XCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:17:40 -0000 --_000_a8dfdce9e6c04721ab9e5cdb8534bc04XCHRTP013ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbTogQmFsYXpzIExlbmd5ZWwsIEp1bHkgNSwgMjAxOCAxMDo1NiBBTQ0KDQpXZSB3b3VsZCBu ZWVkIGR5bmFtaWMgc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9ucyB3aXRoIE5ldGNvbmYgdHJhbnNwb3J0IHllc3RlcmRh eSwgc28gZm9yIG1lIHRoZSBiZXN0IHNvbHV0aW9uIGlzIHdoYXRldmVyIGRlbGl2ZXJzIHRoaXMg c29vbi4NCkhvdyBhYm91dCBzcGl0aW5nIGp1c3QgdGhlIE5ldGNvbmYgdHJhbnNwb3J0IGRyYWZ0 IGludG8gYSBkb2N1bWVudCB0aGF0IGlzIGdvb2QgZW5vdWdoIGZvciBkeW5hbWljIHN1YnNjcmlw dGlvbnMsIGFuZCBsYXRlciB1cGRhdGluZyB0aGF0IHRvIGluY2x1ZGUgY29uZmlndXJlZCBzdWJz Y3JpcHRpb25zIHRvby4gV291bGQgdGhhdCBiZSBwb3NzaWJsZT8gRmFzdGVyPw0KDQo8RXJpYz4g 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X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2bNhWdYsgaXzMm/Ps6FZoIibuKoVK2pJackiZZAlyn/Blzt7ii AetsF7l4FJPXhuwMjnMsOKhUH5rvfAmWbt99MH+gGg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeyb/liOe1RmNnuHJj18SNgwwF8b9B+ZRCyo3mk4o2xoR6g5/PJ4Cy/Hn7kmyFdINj1s/kkJLs6COVqe8Fq1bM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3613:: with SMTP id d19-v6mr4293417lja.31.1530807968256; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 09:26:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:26:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:26:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Balazs Lengyel , Kent Watsen , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002b30fd0570430183" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:26:16 -0000 --0000000000002b30fd0570430183 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 9:17 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > *From:* Balazs Lengyel, July 5, 2018 10:56 AM > > We would need dynamic subscriptions with Netconf transport yesterday, so > for me the best solution is whatever delivers this soon. > How about spiting just the Netconf transport draft into a document that i= s > good enough for dynamic subscriptions, and later updating that to include > configured subscriptions too. Would that be possible? Faster? > > > > If everyone is ok with doing a =E2=80=93bis for configured subscri= ptions as > soon as ietf-netconf-client-server, I would be ok with making the > corresponding updates. Looking at it now, making the needed deletions to > NETCONF-Notif would be very quick to do. > > > > Then there is only one last open issue that I recall for the subscription > drafts in WGLC: support for configured replay. We will be going over tha= t > in Montreal. > > > Why does there need to be a dependency on the client-server module? The only things missing from the "receiver" list are 2 leafs (host, port). > Eric > Andy > Configured subscriptions are less important for us. > > regards Balazs > > > > On 7/4/2018 9:40 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > Since folks are leaning towards: > > > > dynamic: MUST > > configured: MAY > > > > We might also consider: > > > > dynamic: MUST > > configured: TBD > > > > Since the transport bindings (only needed for configured subscriptions) > seem to depend on the client/server drafts, which aren't ready yet. > > > > > > The "receiver" list is rather proprietary since it has nothing in it abou= t > where or how to send packets, > > such as the destination socket, protocol, or message encoding. > > I don't see how configured subscriptions are useful as a standard without > these details. > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > On 7/2/18, 6:50 PM, "Eric Voit (evoit)" wrote: > > > > I am closing this question. All votes are for Option 2, which is > reflected in the current draft. > > > Eric > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM > > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > To be clear, we=E2=80=99re discussing conformance requirements. Options = are: > > > > 1: dynamic: MAY > > configured: MAY > > > > 2: dynamic: MUST > > configured: MAY > > > > > > > > I support this option (I think this is in the draft now). > > The configured subscriptions are likely less interoperable at this point > because > > the protocol, transport, and encoding could be proprietary. There are al= so > > call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means plain call-home, > > magic port Y means subscription call-home). > > > > The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by the NETCONF or > RESTCONF > > protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent across server > implementations. > > > > There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in addition to edit-config= . > > (As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not introduce parameters > > that are not already in the configured subscriptions.. > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > 3: dynamic: MAY > > configured: MUST > > > > 4: dynamic: MUST > > configured: MUST > > > > I don=E2=80=99t really care, as long as there is a good reason for it. > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > On Jun 24, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Henk Birkholz de> wrote: > > Hello all, > > this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but maybe I am missing > something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of netconf. > > In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "only Configured > Subscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a strong yes wrt > "Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional feature". > > Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should support resilient > rendezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am aware of call home and thi= s > seems to be an excellent lightweight basis to build more complex solution= s > on that will benefit significantly from available dynamic subscription > features. > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > Henk > > On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Voit (evoit)" 40cisco.com > > @dmarc.ietf.org > > > wrote: > > Per below, Kent is interested to know if anyone wants to support a > Publisher of just Configured Subscriptions. This would turn Dynamic > Subscriptions into an optional feature. > > > > So does anyone want this? If a few people say yes, I will tweak the > document. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > I understand that supporting dynamic subscriptions is currently a > requirement. I am challenging that requirement. Why is it a requirement= ? > Does it have to be a requirement? > > > > What if an IoT device only wants to support configured subscriptions and > having code to support dynamic is wasting space? FWIW, I realize that > not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it would be impossib= le > to filling in gaps introduced by a reboot, but maybe that's a decision th= at > the vendor can/should make for themselves? > > > > In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic subscriptions. So support > for that older spec by definition makes dynamic subscriptions mandatory. > Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-7923 as well as sections of > other documents like RFC-7921, section 7.6 identify dynamic subscriptions > as mandatory for a subscription service. So at least some use cases exis= t > where such dynamic support is mandatory. > > > > Does it? I mean, this draft doesn't obsolete 5277, so it seems > that server can optionally support one or the other or both, and when it > supports this draft, can't it use a feature statement to limit dynamic > subscriptions? > > > > Per below, I am ok to make dynamic subscription support optional > (even if I don=E2=80=99t believe this is the right decision). Part of th= e fix in > the YANG Model description text would be to note that either dynamic or > configured must be supported. > > > > With your IoT publisher use case above you are asserting that dynamic > subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription only publishers = =E2=80=93 > i.e., there are a class of publishers which have been driven by use cases > not considered by the documents referenced above. So who has documented > the need configured subscription only publishers? I can=E2=80=99t point= to such > documentation (beyond IoT case above). Is such a possibility worth slowi= ng > down this spec? In the end making the fix for this specification whic= h > you seem to want is itself really quite trivial: we can make both dynamic > and configured subscriptions optional. The reason I have been resisting = it > is that this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers as ye= t > another feature would have to be advertised as optional, (b) this waters > down the mandatory capabilities support of the YANG module, and (c) we > would need to include some a constraint that at least one of the two > optional features needs to be supported. Also for (c) AFAIK, features > don=E2=80=99t support the application of such constraints, so it would ha= ve to be > done in the feature descriptions themselves. > > > > I guess the text above is a long way of saying that if you assert the > optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress the document, I wi= ll > make the change. But the change will impose complexity costs which to me > are hard to justify. > > > > why don't you ask the WG? "Should we support servers having onl= y > configured subscriptions (i.e. no dynamic subscriptions)?" FWIW, the > ietf-*conf-server modules have features around both the "listen" and > "call-home" subtrees. Heck, you might think "listen" would be mandatory > (per RFC 6241), but still we support the possibility of a server only > supporting call-home=E2=80=A6 > > > > > > > > that's a reasonable answer, but mind you that it was your IoT > use-case originally. I'd like to get other opinions. Yes, trivial to a= dd > now, hard to add later, more flexibility for servers, almost no additiona= l > effort for clients. FWIW, I'm planning to add a feature statement for > "periodic connections" in the ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts > for similar reasons, that the server just might not want to support them, > and I don't want the minimal bar to be higher than needed. > > > > Lets go with whatever opinions people have. I will adapt > accordingly. Do you want me to start an independent thread? > > yes, please ask the WG > > > > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > -- > > Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. > > Senior Specialist > > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com > > --0000000000002b30fd0570430183 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 9:17 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) <= ;evoit@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:

From: Balazs Lengyel, July 5, 2018 10:56 AM

We would need dynamic subscriptions with Netconf tra= nsport yesterday, so for me the best solution is whatever delivers this soo= n.=C2=A0
How about spiting just the Netconf transport draft into a document that is = good enough for dynamic subscriptions, and later updating that to include c= onfigured subscriptions too. Would that be possible? Faster?<= /p>

=C2=A0

<Eric> If everyone is ok with d= oing a =E2=80=93bis for configured subscriptions as soon as ietf-netconf-cl= ient-server, I would be ok with making the corresponding updates.=C2=A0 Looking at it now, making the needed deletions to NETCONF-Notif would be v= ery quick to do.

=C2=A0

Then there is only one last open issu= e that I recall for the subscription drafts in WGLC: support for configured= replay.=C2=A0 We will be going over that in Montreal.=

=C2=A0

<= /blockquote>


Why does there need to be a = dependency on the client-server module?
The only things missing f= rom the "receiver" list are 2 leafs (host, port).

<= /div>
=C2=A0

Eric




Andy
=C2=A0<= /div>

Configured subscriptions are less important for us.

regards Balazs

=C2=A0

On 7/4/2018 9:40 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

Since folks are leaning towards:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 dynamic: MUST

=C2=A0=C2=A0 configured: MAY

=C2=A0

We might also consider:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 dynamic: MUST

=C2=A0=C2=A0 configured: TBD

=C2=A0

Since the transport bindings (only needed for configured subscriptio= ns) seem to depend on the client/server drafts, which aren't ready yet.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The "receiver" list is rather proprietary = since it has nothing in it about where or how to send packets,

such as the destination socket, protocol, or message= encoding.

I don't see how configured subscriptions are use= ful as a standard without these details.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kent // contributor

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I am closing this question.=C2=A0 All= votes are for Option 2, which is reflected in the current draft.=


Eric

=C2=A0

From:<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">= Andy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

=C2=A0

To be clear, we=E2=80=99re discussing conformance re= quirements.=C2=A0 Options are:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A01: dynamic: MAY

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured: MAY=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A02: dynamic: MUST

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MAY

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I support this option (I think this is in the draft = now).

The configured subscriptions are likely less interop= erable at this point because

the protocol, transport, and encoding could be propr= ietary.=C2=A0 There are also

call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means pla= in call-home,

magic port Y means subscription call-home).

=C2=A0

The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by= the NETCONF or RESTCONF

protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent acr= oss server implementations.

=C2=A0

There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in ad= dition to edit-config.

(As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not = introduce parameters

that are not already in the configured subscriptions= ..

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A03: dynamic: MAY

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MUST<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A04: dynamic: MUST

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MUST<= u>

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t really care, as long as there is a g= ood reason for it.

=C2=A0

Kent // contributor

=C2=A0

Hello all,

this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but maybe I am missi= ng something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of netconf.

In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "only Configured Su= bscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a strong yes wrt &q= uot;Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional feature".
Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should support resilient ren= dezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am aware of call home and this see= ms to be an excellent lightweight basis to build more complex solutions on = that will benefit significantly from available dynamic subscription features.

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk

On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Vo= it (evoit)" <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Per below, Kent is int= erested to know if anyone wants to support a Publisher of just Configured S= ubscriptions.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This would turn Dynamic Subscriptions into an optional feature.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So does anyone want th= is?=C2=A0 If a few people say yes, I will tweak the document.=

=C2=A0

Eric<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Kent8> I understand that supporting dynamic s= ubscriptions is currently a requirement.=C2=A0 I am challenging that requir= ement.=C2=A0 Why is it a requirement?=C2=A0 Does it have to be a requiremen= t?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

What if an IoT device only wants to support configur= ed subscriptions and having code to support dynamic is wasting space? =C2= =A0=C2=A0 FWIW, I realize that not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it would be impossible to filling in gaps introduced by a = reboot, but maybe that's a decision that the vendor can/should make for= themselves?=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Eric9> In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic s= ubscriptions.=C2=A0 So support for that older spec by definition makes dyna= mic subscriptions mandatory.=C2=A0 Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-7923 as well as sections of other documents like RFC-7921, sectio= n 7.6 identify dynamic subscriptions as mandatory for a subscription servic= e.=C2=A0 So at least some use cases exist where such dynamic support is man= datory.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Kent9> Does it?=C2=A0=C2=A0 I mean, this draf= t doesn't obsolete 5277, so it seems that server can optionally support= one or the other or both, and when it supports this draft, can't it us= e a feature statement to limit dynamic subscriptions?

=C2=A0

<Eric10> Per below, I am ok to make dynamic su= bscription support optional (even if I don=E2=80=99t believe this is the ri= ght decision).=C2=A0 Part of the fix in the YANG Model description text would be to note that either dynamic or configured must be supported.

=C2=A0

With your IoT publisher use case above you are asser= ting that dynamic subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription = only publishers =E2=80=93 i.e., there are a class of publishers which have been driven by use cases not considered by the documents refere= nced above.=C2=A0 So who has documented the need configured subscription on= ly publishers? =C2=A0=C2=A0I can=E2=80=99t point to such documentation (bey= ond IoT case above).=C2=A0 Is such a possibility worth slowing down this spec?=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0In the end making the fix for this= specification which you seem to want is itself really quite trivial: we ca= n make both dynamic and configured subscriptions optional.=C2=A0 The reason= I have been resisting it is that this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers as yet another feature would have to b= e advertised as optional, (b) this waters down the mandatory capabilities s= upport of the YANG module, and (c) we would need to include some a constrai= nt that at least one of the two optional features needs to be supported.=C2=A0 Also for (c) AFAIK, feature= s don=E2=80=99t support the application of such constraints, so it would ha= ve to be done in the feature descriptions themselves.

=C2=A0

I guess the text above is a long way of saying that = if you assert the optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress th= e document, I will make the change.=C2=A0 But the change will impose complexity costs which to me are hard to justify.

=C2=A0

<Kent10> why don't you ask the WG? =C2=A0&= quot;Should we support servers having only configured subscriptions (i.e. n= o dynamic subscriptions)?"=C2=A0 FWIW, the ietf-*conf-server modules h= ave features around both the "listen" and "call-home" subtrees.=C2= =A0 Heck, you might think "listen" would be mandatory (per RFC 62= 41), but still we support the possibility of a server only supporting call-= home=E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Kent9> that's a reasonable answer, but mi= nd you that it was your IoT use-case originally. =C2=A0=C2=A0I'd like t= o get other opinions.=C2=A0 Yes, trivial to add now, hard to add later, mor= e flexibility for servers, almost no additional effort for clients.=C2=A0 FWIW, I'm = planning to add a feature statement for "periodic connections" in= the ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts for similar reasons, tha= t the server just might not want to support them, and I don't want the minimal bar to be higher than needed.

=C2=A0

<Eric10> Lets g= o with whatever opinions people have.=C2=A0 I will adapt accordingly.=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Do you want me to start an independent thread?

<Kent10> yes, please ask the WG

=C2=A0


--
Sent from= my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/netconf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0




_______________________________________________

Netconf mailing list


Netconf@ietf.org=



https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf





-- 
Balazs Lengyel=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com

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(was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:40:13 -0000 SGkgRXJpYywNCg0KPiBUaGUgb3BlbiBxdWVzdGlvbiBoZXJlIGlzIHdoZXRoZXIgd2UgbWFuZGF0 ZSB0aGUgTkVUQ09ORiBjYWxsLWhvbWUgd29yayBhcw0KPiBhIGRlcGVuZGVuY3kuwqAgwqDCoElm IHRoZSBXRyB3aXNoZXMsIHdlIGNvdWxkIGNsb3NlIFdHTEMgb24gU3Vic2NyaWJlZC1ub3RpZmlj YXRpb25zDQo+IGFuZCBZQU5HLXB1c2gsIGFuZCBsZWF2ZSBqdXN0IE5FVENPTkYtTm90aWYgb3Bl biB1bnRpbCBpZXRmLW5ldGNvbmYtc2VydmVyIA0KPiBjb21wbGV0ZXMuwqAgQnV0IHRoZSBkb3du c2lkZSB3b3VsZCBiZSB0aGF0IGl0IHdvdWxkIGxlYXZlIE5FVENPTkYgdHJhbnNwb3J0DQo+IGZv ciBkeW5hbWljIHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbnMgdW5kZWZpbmVkLiANCsKgDQpKdXN0IGZvY3VzaW5nIG9u IHRoZSAiZG93bnNpZGUiIGhlcmUsIGhvdyB3b3VsZCBpdCBiZSB1bmRlZmluZWQ/ICBTaW5jZSBp dCBpcyBhDQoqZHluYW1pYyogc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uLCB0aGUgdHJhbnNwb3J0IGlzIHRoZSBzYW1l 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d="scan'208,217";a="419782325" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 05 Jul 2018 17:31:28 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (xch-rtp-013.cisco.com [64.101.220.153]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w65HVSGp005849 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Jul 2018 17:31:28 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 13:31:27 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 13:31:27 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Andy Bierman CC: Balazs Lengyel , Kent Watsen , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) Thread-Index: AQHUC7Bk2NEfjxedcUmM/mAqvL2qMaRxMGsAgABNWwCACxi18IABmkaAgAGYmoCAAULPAP//0YNQgABHwID//82wUA== Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 17:31:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_b7c65965cf3b43e3b898c5c2f9519573XCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 17:31:34 -0000 --_000_b7c65965cf3b43e3b898c5c2f9519573XCHRTP013ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgQW5keSwNCg0KRnJvbTogQW5keSBCaWVybWFuLCBKdWx5IDUsIDIwMTggMTI6MjYgUE0NCg0K DQpPbiBUaHUsIEp1bCA1LCAyMDE4IGF0IDk6MTcgQU0sIEVyaWMgVm9pdCAoZXZvaXQpIDxldm9p dEBjaXNjby5jb208bWFpbHRvOmV2b2l0QGNpc2NvLmNvbT4+IHdyb3RlOg0KRnJvbTogQmFsYXpz IExlbmd5ZWwsIEp1bHkgNSwgMjAxOCAxMDo1NiBBTQ0KV2Ugd291bGQgbmVlZCBkeW5hbWljIHN1 YnNjcmlwdGlvbnMgd2l0aCBOZXRjb25mIHRyYW5zcG9ydCB5ZXN0ZXJkYXksIHNvIGZvciBtZSB0 aGUgYmVzdCBzb2x1dGlvbiBpcyB3aGF0ZXZlciBkZWxpdmVycyB0aGlzIHNvb24uDQpIb3cgYWJv dXQgc3BpdGluZyBqdXN0IHRoZSBOZXRjb25mIHRyYW5zcG9ydCBkcmFmdCBpbnRvIGEgZG9jdW1l 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, "i-d-announce@ietf.org" CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt Thread-Index: AQHUElbkwm4GAj3ILUa2Fk8DhdRrv6SAkQKAgABD9gA= Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 17:36:48 +0000 Message-ID: <6d9c2a1e9bc4438782c7c55adad2e012@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <153057165502.16157.15185842271768314132@ietfa.amsl.com> <0ACF98E6-F6CA-4B1F-82ED-ED80B1095781@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <0ACF98E6-F6CA-4B1F-82ED-ED80B1095781@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 17:36:54 -0000 > From: Kent Watsen, July 5, 2018 12:23 PM >=20 > Looking at the diffs I see: >=20 > Note that each individual receiver is identifiable by > its "name". This "name" plus the "transport" are used by a > publisher implementation to a parameters needed to establish and > maintain a network connection using that transport. >=20 > I know that you worked this out with Martin, but I think that for configu= red > subscriptions (and that's all we're talking about here, right?), a leafre= f to the > actual transport instance (e.g., /restconf-server/call-home/restconf-clie= nt) > would be more exact. Yes, just configured subscriptions. As some transports might not want/need= call home, adding the leafref should be defined in each transport draft. = =20 So how about text which says: "Note that each individual receiver is identi= fiable by its "name". Via this "name", publisher transport parameters can = be referenced in order to establish and maintain a transport connection wit= h a receiver. This transport specific reference can come in several forms,= including the augmentation of leafrefs to an actual transport instance. S= uch augmentations would be defined in transport specific specifications bui= lding upon this document." Eric > Kent >=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D original message =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF. >=20 > Title : Customized Subscriptions to a Publisher's Event= Streams > Authors : Eric Voit > Alexander Clemm > Alberto Gonzalez Prieto > Einar Nilsen-Nygaard > Ambika Prasad Tripathy > Filename : draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt > Pages : 74 > Date : 2018-07-02 >=20 > Abstract: > This document defines a YANG data model and associated mechanisms > enabling subscriber-specific subscriptions to a publisher's event > streams. Applying these elements allows a subscriber to request for > and receive a continuous, custom feed of publisher generated > information. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf From nobody Thu Jul 5 10:44:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CD5130F4C for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 10:44:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lQehJwx69ukW for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 10:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22b.google.com (mail-lf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1320130F14 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 10:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id y127-v6so7630745lfc.8 for ; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 10:44:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=A4JrI6zzv12LDtGvoGlcyx8BP0MpJoN/p2/te0wtgZs=; b=kT0IeqtkOEXValEYpL6us5m9R7q2bfv9bfLH2sSsctU9mn9yEtthjqXD5cJFkA8yD8 4SWPjurLA5f4ktLVQUNiiN1ripcwGSbjJevGnnCYmsliy6dV+eUfbsSIVhml8nNHkbZ6 WVpzPbX1umbzo7D7mERVisK4AtV5YG90QMmui4yDRu7JnxAsBM1AzO9NXolevCuUoZEO 4vR/EWtt5UQ2bk3O/VPybnH5O1qlxjxp6c9p3y/Oc2Epo32GjmigMShaYThlMcsTkunU a4DZfjqCfZXwear6Dw6rV73X5oIlrxpHXBqM3eGF3kyVg3NQ6MQfWd4TcUqA0TJdq587 wl+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=A4JrI6zzv12LDtGvoGlcyx8BP0MpJoN/p2/te0wtgZs=; b=rFwweXMDGdebGncHmkT8YiXwyUJ0BAzsK0AdwtXfVMEmmUrk+MLSzEx1Lvnhhpu2CS q0wdkSCcxjs9s/WTQLXWuH+Q1ZDPb4rVXP0KWgoFeN69Dt3lWbk7SVL37PpIPYzinjeh BZFIYY1Ww5Vub7ISzRiPijtenT7rCyRlmTjPmGxmPiv/fZPnq7cC4FKe3/Mg/ji6dcXC yzBblRupIQR7WzArz80IEQzM/hyhDMqhngoOHHd6mbRGQTNhuuHpdB3GHETfkZp0J0Vy jqqvF/+dWqSp+wHGve//IQblRFx/NcXc6KJgo+QXlxojd0NoOz/2Oyyb0yAZkz5lf1s7 ySPw== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3DdW4s5hihazw0h6WgAEug7cO/UleSTaCWFeg17DzQd5h6E273 6gajuYKqCoV3W7KsShf3Cg1mNQjDw9kJcLq6odG/nA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpf261Bb7MO3UEFhTC//0OOV/9GcvKCy/B6H+wZqFC3Av2j/31SwhEiZy8lSmaRrC30v3aMODKoPKs8opsQYK7A= X-Received: by 2002:a19:e1cc:: with SMTP id l73-v6mr5262647lfk.102.1530812644939; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 10:44:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 10:44:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 10:44:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Balazs Lengyel , Kent Watsen , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eb74480570441730" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 17:44:18 -0000 --000000000000eb74480570441730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 12:26 PM > > > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 9:17 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote= : > > *From:* Balazs Lengyel, July 5, 2018 10:56 AM > > We would need dynamic subscriptions with Netconf transport yesterday, so > for me the best solution is whatever delivers this soon. > How about spiting just the Netconf transport draft into a document that i= s > good enough for dynamic subscriptions, and later updating that to include > configured subscriptions too. Would that be possible? Faster? > > > > If everyone is ok with doing a =E2=80=93bis for configured subscri= ptions as > soon as ietf-netconf-client-server, I would be ok with making the > corresponding updates. Looking at it now, making the needed deletions to > NETCONF-Notif would be very quick to do. > > > > Then there is only one last open issue that I recall for the subscription > drafts in WGLC: support for configured replay. We will be going over tha= t > in Montreal. > > > > > > > > Why does there need to be a dependency on the client-server module? > > The only things missing from the "receiver" list are 2 leafs (host, port)= . > > > > This is what was there initially. But several people have > asserted that host and port interacts poorly with call-home. > > > Of course it interacts poorly with CallHome, because the receiver list is used INSTEAD of CallHome, not with CallHome. CH is for initiating a new NC or RC session, so a "special" version of it that doesn't initiate a session would be a misuse. I guess the concept of SNMP Trap Receiver is not that clear to the NETCONF WG. To make progress, I am ok with anything here but stalemate. And if only > supporting dynamic subscriptions results in progress, that is ok with me. > > > > Eric > > > > > Andy > Eric > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > Configured subscriptions are less important for us. > > regards Balazs > > > > On 7/4/2018 9:40 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > Since folks are leaning towards: > > > > dynamic: MUST > > configured: MAY > > > > We might also consider: > > > > dynamic: MUST > > configured: TBD > > > > Since the transport bindings (only needed for configured subscriptions) > seem to depend on the client/server drafts, which aren't ready yet. > > > > > > The "receiver" list is rather proprietary since it has nothing in it abou= t > where or how to send packets, > > such as the destination socket, protocol, or message encoding. > > I don't see how configured subscriptions are useful as a standard without > these details. > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > On 7/2/18, 6:50 PM, "Eric Voit (evoit)" wrote: > > > > I am closing this question. All votes are for Option 2, which is > reflected in the current draft. > > > Eric > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM > > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > To be clear, we=E2=80=99re discussing conformance requirements. Options = are: > > > > 1: dynamic: MAY > > configured: MAY > > > > 2: dynamic: MUST > > configured: MAY > > > > > > > > I support this option (I think this is in the draft now). > > The configured subscriptions are likely less interoperable at this point > because > > the protocol, transport, and encoding could be proprietary. There are al= so > > call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means plain call-home, > > magic port Y means subscription call-home). > > > > The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by the NETCONF or > RESTCONF > > protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent across server > implementations. > > > > There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in addition to edit-config= . > > (As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not introduce parameters > > that are not already in the configured subscriptions.. > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > 3: dynamic: MAY > > configured: MUST > > > > 4: dynamic: MUST > > configured: MUST > > > > I don=E2=80=99t really care, as long as there is a good reason for it. > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > On Jun 24, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Henk Birkholz de> wrote: > > Hello all, > > this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but maybe I am missing > something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of netconf. > > In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "only Configured > Subscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a strong yes wrt > "Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional feature". > > Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should support resilient > rendezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am aware of call home and thi= s > seems to be an excellent lightweight basis to build more complex solution= s > on that will benefit significantly from available dynamic subscription > features. > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > Henk > > On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Voit (evoit)" 40cisco.com > > @dmarc.ietf.org > > > wrote: > > Per below, Kent is interested to know if anyone wants to support a > Publisher of just Configured Subscriptions. This would turn Dynamic > Subscriptions into an optional feature. > > > > So does anyone want this? If a few people say yes, I will tweak the > document. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > I understand that supporting dynamic subscriptions is currently a > requirement. I am challenging that requirement. Why is it a requirement= ? > Does it have to be a requirement? > > > > What if an IoT device only wants to support configured subscriptions and > having code to support dynamic is wasting space? FWIW, I realize that > not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it would be impossib= le > to filling in gaps introduced by a reboot, but maybe that's a decision th= at > the vendor can/should make for themselves? > > > > In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic subscriptions. So support > for that older spec by definition makes dynamic subscriptions mandatory. > Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-7923 as well as sections of > other documents like RFC-7921, section 7.6 identify dynamic subscriptions > as mandatory for a subscription service. So at least some use cases exis= t > where such dynamic support is mandatory. > > > > Does it? I mean, this draft doesn't obsolete 5277, so it seems > that server can optionally support one or the other or both, and when it > supports this draft, can't it use a feature statement to limit dynamic > subscriptions? > > > > Per below, I am ok to make dynamic subscription support optional > (even if I don=E2=80=99t believe this is the right decision). Part of th= e fix in > the YANG Model description text would be to note that either dynamic or > configured must be supported. > > > > With your IoT publisher use case above you are asserting that dynamic > subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription only publishers = =E2=80=93 > i.e., there are a class of publishers which have been driven by use cases > not considered by the documents referenced above. So who has documented > the need configured subscription only publishers? I can=E2=80=99t point= to such > documentation (beyond IoT case above). Is such a possibility worth slowi= ng > down this spec? In the end making the fix for this specification whic= h > you seem to want is itself really quite trivial: we can make both dynamic > and configured subscriptions optional. The reason I have been resisting = it > is that this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers as ye= t > another feature would have to be advertised as optional, (b) this waters > down the mandatory capabilities support of the YANG module, and (c) we > would need to include some a constraint that at least one of the two > optional features needs to be supported. Also for (c) AFAIK, features > don=E2=80=99t support the application of such constraints, so it would ha= ve to be > done in the feature descriptions themselves. > > > > I guess the text above is a long way of saying that if you assert the > optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress the document, I wi= ll > make the change. But the change will impose complexity costs which to me > are hard to justify. > > > > why don't you ask the WG? "Should we support servers having onl= y > configured subscriptions (i.e. no dynamic subscriptions)?" FWIW, the > ietf-*conf-server modules have features around both the "listen" and > "call-home" subtrees. Heck, you might think "listen" would be mandatory > (per RFC 6241), but still we support the possibility of a server only > supporting call-home=E2=80=A6 > > > > > > > > that's a reasonable answer, but mind you that it was your IoT > use-case originally. I'd like to get other opinions. Yes, trivial to a= dd > now, hard to add later, more flexibility for servers, almost no additiona= l > effort for clients. FWIW, I'm planning to add a feature statement for > "periodic connections" in the ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts > for similar reasons, that the server just might not want to support them, > and I don't want the minimal bar to be higher than needed. > > > > Lets go with whatever opinions people have. I will adapt > accordingly. Do you want me to start an independent thread? > > yes, please ask the WG > > > > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > -- > > Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. > > Senior Specialist > > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com > > > --000000000000eb74480570441730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) &l= t;evoit@cisco.com&= gt; wrote:

Hi Andy,

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 12:= 26 PM

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 9:17 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) &l= t;evoit@cisco.com&= gt; wrote:

From:<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">= Balazs Lengyel, July 5, 2018 10:56 AM

We would need dynamic subscriptions with Netconf tra= nsport yesterday, so for me the best solution is whatever delivers this soo= n.=C2=A0
How about spiting just the Netconf transport draft into a document that is = good enough for dynamic subscriptions, and later updating that to include c= onfigured subscriptions too. Would that be possible? Faster?<= /p>

=C2=A0

<Eric> If everyone is ok with d= oing a =E2=80=93bis for configured subscriptions as soon as ietf-netconf-cl= ient-server, I would be ok with making the corresponding updates.=C2=A0 Looking at it n= ow, making the needed deletions to NETCONF-Notif would be very quick to do.=

=C2=A0

Then there is only one last open issu= e that I recall for the subscription drafts in WGLC: support for configured replay.=C2=A0 We will be going over that in Montreal.=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Why does there need to be a dependency on the client= -server module?

The only things missing from the "receiver"= ; list are 2 leafs (host, port).

=C2=A0

<Eric>=C2=A0 This is what was t= here initially.=C2=A0=C2=A0 But several people have asserted that host and = port interacts poorly with call-home.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= /div>


Of course it interacts poorly with CallHome, because the receiver list is= used INSTEAD of CallHome,
not with CallHome. CH is for initiatin= g a new NC or RC session, so a "special" version of it
= that doesn't initiate a session would be a misuse.=C2=A0 I guess the co= ncept of SNMP Trap Receiver is
not that clear to the NETCONF WG.<= /div>


To make progress, I am ok with anythi= ng here but stalemate.=C2=A0=C2=A0 And if only supporting dynamic subscript= ions results in progress, that is ok with me.

=C2=A0

Eric

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=


Andy
=C2=A0
=

Eric

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

Configured subscriptions are less important for us.

regards Balazs

=C2=A0

On 7/4/2018 9:40 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

Since folks are leaning towards:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 dynamic: MUST

=C2=A0=C2=A0 configured: MAY

=C2=A0

We might also consider:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 dynamic: MUST

=C2=A0=C2=A0 configured: TBD

=C2=A0

Since the transport bindings (only needed for configured subscriptio= ns) seem to depend on the client/server drafts, which aren't ready yet.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The "receiver" list is rather proprietary = since it has nothing in it about where or how to send packets,

such as the destination socket, protocol, or message= encoding.

I don't see how configured subscriptions are use= ful as a standard without these details.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kent // contributor

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I am closing this question.=C2=A0 All= votes are for Option 2, which is reflected in the current draft.=


Eric

=C2=A0

From:<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">= Andy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

=C2=A0

To be clear, we=E2=80=99re discussing conformance re= quirements.=C2=A0 Options are:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A01: dynamic: MAY

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured: MAY=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A02: dynamic: MUST

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MAY

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I support this option (I think this is in the draft = now).

The configured subscriptions are likely less interop= erable at this point because

the protocol, transport, and encoding could be propr= ietary.=C2=A0 There are also

call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means pla= in call-home,

magic port Y means subscription call-home).

=C2=A0

The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by= the NETCONF or RESTCONF

protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent acr= oss server implementations.

=C2=A0

There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in ad= dition to edit-config.

(As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not = introduce parameters

that are not already in the configured subscriptions= ..

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A03: dynamic: MAY

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MUST<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A04: dynamic: MUST

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MUST<= u>

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t really care, as long as there is a g= ood reason for it.

=C2=A0

Kent // contributor

=C2=A0

Hello all,

this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but maybe I am missi= ng something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of netconf.

In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "only Configured Su= bscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a strong yes wrt &q= uot;Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional feature".
Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should support resilient ren= dezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am aware of call home and this see= ms to be an excellent lightweight basis to build more complex solutions on = that will benefit significantly from available dynamic subscription features.

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk

On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Vo= it (evoit)" <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Per below, Kent is int= erested to know if anyone wants to support a Publisher of just Configured S= ubscriptions.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This would turn Dynamic Subscriptions into an optional feature.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So does anyone want th= is?=C2=A0 If a few people say yes, I will tweak the document.=

=C2=A0

Eric<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Kent8> I understand that supporting dynamic s= ubscriptions is currently a requirement.=C2=A0 I am challenging that requir= ement.=C2=A0 Why is it a requirement?=C2=A0 Does it have to be a requiremen= t?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

What if an IoT device only wants to support configur= ed subscriptions and having code to support dynamic is wasting space? =C2= =A0=C2=A0 FWIW, I realize that not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it would be impossible to filling in gaps introduced by a = reboot, but maybe that's a decision that the vendor can/should make for= themselves?=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Eric9> In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic s= ubscriptions.=C2=A0 So support for that older spec by definition makes dyna= mic subscriptions mandatory.=C2=A0 Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-7923 as well as sections of other documents like RFC-7921, sectio= n 7.6 identify dynamic subscriptions as mandatory for a subscription servic= e.=C2=A0 So at least some use cases exist where such dynamic support is man= datory.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Kent9> Does it?=C2=A0=C2=A0 I mean, this draf= t doesn't obsolete 5277, so it seems that server can optionally support= one or the other or both, and when it supports this draft, can't it us= e a feature statement to limit dynamic subscriptions?

=C2=A0

<Eric10> Per below, I am ok to make dynamic su= bscription support optional (even if I don=E2=80=99t believe this is the ri= ght decision).=C2=A0 Part of the fix in the YANG Model description text would be to note that either dynamic or configured must be supported.

=C2=A0

With your IoT publisher use case above you are asser= ting that dynamic subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription = only publishers =E2=80=93 i.e., there are a class of publishers which have been driven by use cases not considered by the documents refere= nced above.=C2=A0 So who has documented the need configured subscription on= ly publishers? =C2=A0=C2=A0I can=E2=80=99t point to such documentation (bey= ond IoT case above).=C2=A0 Is such a possibility worth slowing down this spec?=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0In the end making the fix for this= specification which you seem to want is itself really quite trivial: we ca= n make both dynamic and configured subscriptions optional.=C2=A0 The reason= I have been resisting it is that this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers as yet another feature would have to b= e advertised as optional, (b) this waters down the mandatory capabilities s= upport of the YANG module, and (c) we would need to include some a constrai= nt that at least one of the two optional features needs to be supported.=C2=A0 Also for (c) AFAIK, feature= s don=E2=80=99t support the application of such constraints, so it would ha= ve to be done in the feature descriptions themselves.

=C2=A0

I guess the text above is a long way of saying that = if you assert the optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress th= e document, I will make the change.=C2=A0 But the change will impose complexity costs which to me are hard to justify.

=C2=A0

<Kent10> why don't you ask the WG? =C2=A0&= quot;Should we support servers having only configured subscriptions (i.e. n= o dynamic subscriptions)?"=C2=A0 FWIW, the ietf-*conf-server modules h= ave features around both the "listen" and "call-home" subtrees.=C2= =A0 Heck, you might think "listen" would be mandatory (per RFC 62= 41), but still we support the possibility of a server only supporting call-= home=E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<Kent9> that's a reasonable answer, but mi= nd you that it was your IoT use-case originally. =C2=A0=C2=A0I'd like t= o get other opinions.=C2=A0 Yes, trivial to add now, hard to add later, mor= e flexibility for servers, almost no additional effort for clients.=C2=A0 FWIW, I'm = planning to add a feature statement for "periodic connections" in= the ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts for similar reasons, tha= t the server just might not want to support them, and I don't want the minimal bar to be higher than needed.

=C2=A0

<Eric10> Lets g= o with whatever opinions people have.=C2=A0 I will adapt accordingly.=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Do you want me to start an independent thread?

<Kent10> yes, please ask the WG

=C2=A0


--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brev= ity.


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/netconf

=C2=A0

=C2=A0



_______________________________________________

Netconf mailing list


Netconf@ietf.org=



https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<=
/pre>

=C2=A0

-- 
Balazs Lengyel=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist

Mobile: +36-70-330-7909=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 email: Balazs.Lengyel=
@ericsson.com

=C2=A0


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(was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) Thread-Index: AQHUC7Bk2NEfjxedcUmM/mAqvL2qMaRxMGsAgABNWwCACxi18IABmkaAgAGYmoCAAULPAP//0YNQgABHwID//82wUIAASBaA//+/HcA= Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 18:00:47 +0000 Message-ID: <895bc6a027484796a0aa0dde4c144f8b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_895bc6a027484796a0aa0dde4c144f8bXCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 18:01:04 -0000 --_000_895bc6a027484796a0aa0dde4c144f8bXCHRTP013ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbTogQW5keSBCaWVybWFuLCBKdWx5IDUsIDIwMTggMTo0NCBQTQ0KDQoNCk9uIFRodSwgSnVs IDUsIDIwMTggYXQgMTA6MzEgQU0sIEVyaWMgVm9pdCAoZXZvaXQpIDxldm9pdEBjaXNjby5jb208 bWFpbHRvOmV2b2l0QGNpc2NvLmNvbT4+IHdyb3RlOg0KSGkgQW5keSwNCg0KRnJvbTogQW5keSBC aWVybWFuLCBKdWx5IDUsIDIwMTggMTI6MjYgUE0NCg0KT24gVGh1LCBKdWwgNSwgMjAxOCBhdCA5 OjE3IEFNLCBFcmljIFZvaXQgKGV2b2l0KSA8ZXZvaXRAY2lzY28uY29tPG1haWx0bzpldm9pdEBj aXNjby5jb20+PiB3cm90ZToNCkZyb206IEJhbGF6cyBMZW5neWVsLCBKdWx5IDUsIDIwMTggMTA6 NTYgQU0NCldlIHdvdWxkIG5lZWQgZHluYW1pYyBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIHdpdGggTmV0Y29uZiB0 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[64.101.220.151]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w65I66fO030222 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Jul 2018 18:06:06 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 14:06:05 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 14:06:05 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Andy Bierman , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) Thread-Index: AQHUC7Bk2NEfjxedcUmM/mAqvL2qMaRxMGsAgABNWwCACxi18IABmkaAgAGYmoD//77DcIAASwMAgADq21A= Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 18:06:05 +0000 Message-ID: <98fc44f773ca40cd97957277a1c5eed9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <2707704d84354cb784e0d2ae001bc599@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180704201518.el3v4gsay43i7bhm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180704201518.el3v4gsay43i7bhm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 18:06:10 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder > Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 4:15 PM > To: Eric Voit (evoit) > Cc: Andy Bierman ; netconf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE= : LC > on subscribed-notifications-10) >=20 > On Wed, Jul 04, 2018 at 08:04:40PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > The open question here is whether we mandate the NETCONF call-home > work as a dependency. If the WG wishes, we could close WGLC on > Subscribed-notifications and YANG-push, and leave just NETCONF-Notif open > until ietf-netconf-server completes. But the downside would be that it w= ould > leave NETCONF transport for dynamic subscriptions undefined. > > >=20 > Who is behind the NAT? >=20 > (a) notification generator > (b) notification receiver > (c) both >=20 > For which scenario is NETCONF call-home needed? Hi Juergen, Short answer is (c). The long answer is that NETCONF call-home is not needed for dynamic subscri= ptions. It is just needed for configured subscriptions. So on this thr= ead Balazs has just suggested that we reduce draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-eve= nt-notifications just to dynamic (so that we can close on the drafts in WGL= C). After that, we would then do a -bis of draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-eve= nt-notifications as soon as client-server module completes to cover configu= red subscriptions. In this case, draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifica= tions -bis draft would support any NAT conditions supportable by NETCONF ca= ll home, which I believe will be (c). Eric =20 > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Jul 5 11:18:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326D512DD85 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 11:18:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LWJjcvVhopuJ for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 11:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68EE8130F53 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 11:18:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2390; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530814683; x=1532024283; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=SOZEp6O5S1tBaG0amQdj/3AM1P/ihLU+KK6EqSzAsog=; b=O/5x1WA2HoN/isD+DzBmSwDQolBkrWn9MOfS6g65SB9aWH2rpevLqNsZ fQtlM6xVFXxgm3UQEV2cvJW6V9SiUshISY0AnT2AB/cZ2sT//NpGwKFje j/Ml0MDdDbubiT4iVGcoVLasK8ryLHTtfh3QICPt+cxapo/iSx8uI1eDd 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BZAgDMXz5b/4cNJK1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYMfKoFhMoNwiASMNIIHgziReIF6C4RsAheCFiE0GAECAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?CAQECbSiFNgEBAQECASMRQwIFCwIBCA4HBQIJFgcCAgIwFRACBAENDYJNgkM?= =?us-ascii?q?IqTGCHIhLgTqBC4digVY/gQ+CYS6EZIMXglUCmUwJAo8WjV+RYgIREwGBJB0?= =?us-ascii?q?4gVJwFYMlgiMXEY4GjnkqgQSBGgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,313,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="419801925" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 05 Jul 2018 18:18:02 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (xch-rtp-013.cisco.com [64.101.220.153]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w65II25R016696 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Jul 2018 18:18:02 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 14:18:01 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 14:18:01 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Kent Watsen , Andy Bierman CC: Henk Birkholz , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) Thread-Index: AQHUC7Bk2NEfjxedcUmM/mAqvL2qMaRxMGsAgABNWwCACxi18IABmkaAgAGYmoD//77DcIABoTAA///VGaA= Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 18:18:01 +0000 Message-ID: <43507a18831540f195c9c2179c781155@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <2707704d84354cb784e0d2ae001bc599@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 18:18:10 -0000 PiBGcm9tOiBLZW50IFdhdHNlbiwgSnVseSA1LCAyMDE4IDEyOjQwIFBNDQo+IA0KPiBIaSBFcmlj LA0KPiANCj4gPiBUaGUgb3BlbiBxdWVzdGlvbiBoZXJlIGlzIHdoZXRoZXIgd2UgbWFuZGF0ZSB0 aGUgTkVUQ09ORiBjYWxsLWhvbWUNCj4gPiB3b3JrIGFzIGEgZGVwZW5kZW5jeS7CoCDCoMKgSWYg dGhlIFdHIHdpc2hlcywgd2UgY291bGQgY2xvc2UgV0dMQyBvbg0KPiA+IFN1YnNjcmliZWQtbm90 aWZpY2F0aW9ucyBhbmQgWUFORy1wdXNoLCBhbmQgbGVhdmUganVzdCBORVRDT05GLU5vdGlmDQo+ ID4gb3BlbiB1bnRpbCBpZXRmLW5ldGNvbmYtc2VydmVyIGNvbXBsZXRlcy7CoCBCdXQgdGhlIGRv d25zaWRlIHdvdWxkIGJlDQo+ID4gdGhhdCBpdCB3b3VsZCBsZWF2ZSBORVRDT05GIHRyYW5zcG9y dCBmb3IgZHluYW1pYyBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIHVuZGVmaW5lZC4NCj4gDQo+IEp1c3QgZm9jdXNp bmcgb24gdGhlICJkb3duc2lkZSIgaGVyZSwgaG93IHdvdWxkIGl0IGJlIHVuZGVmaW5lZD8gIFNp bmNlIGl0IGlzIGENCj4gKmR5bmFtaWMqIHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbiwgdGhlIHRyYW5zcG9ydCBpcyB0 aGUgc2FtZSBhcyB0aGUgb25lIHRoZSBjbGllbnQgdXNlZCB0bw0KPiBjb25uZWN0IHRvIHRoZSBz ZXJ2ZXIgd2l0aC4gIFBlcmhhcHMgeW91IG1lYW4gdGhhdCBpdCB3b3VsZG4ndCBiZSBwb3NzaWJs ZSBmb3INCj4gdGhlIGNsaWVudCB0byBrbm93IChvdGhlciB0aGFuIHNpbXBseSB0cnlpbmcgdGhl IGVzdGFibGlzaC1zdWJzY3JpcHRpb24gUlBDKSBpZg0KPiBTTiBpcyBzdXBwb3J0ZWQgZm9yIHRo ZSBzcGVjaWZpYyB0cmFuc3BvcnQgdXNlZCBiZXR3ZWVuIHRoZSBjbGllbnQgYW5kIHRoZQ0KPiBz ZXJ2ZXIuDQoNCkkgZG9uJ3QgbWVhbiB0aGlzLg0KDQo+IEZvciB0aGlzLCBJIGJlbGlldmUgaXQg aXMgc3VmZmljaWVudCBmb3IgdGhlIGNsaWVudCB0byBsb29rIGZvciB0aGUgU04gbW9kdWxlIGlu DQo+IHlhbmctbGlicmFyeSwgc2luY2UgdGhlIHlhbmctbGlicmFyeSByZXNwb25zZSBpcyBzZXJ2 ZXItc3BlY2lmaWMgKHJmYzc4OTViaXMsDQo+IFNlY3Rpb24gMSwgcGFyYWdyYXBoIDQpLiAgRG8g eW91IGFncmVlPw0KDQpNeSB1bmRlZmluZWQgcG9pbnQgd2FzIHRoYXQgbGVhdmluZyBORVRDT05G LU5vdGlmIG9wZW4gbWVhbnMgdGhhdCB3ZSBkb24ndCBwcm9ncmVzcyBzZWN0aW9ucyAzLCA0LCA1 LjEsIDYsIDcgLCAmIDEwIG9mIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtbmV0Y29uZi1uZXRjb25mLWV2ZW50LW5vdGlm aWNhdGlvbnMgdG93YXJkcyBSRkMuICBUaGVzZSBzZWN0aW9ucyBjb250YWluIHRoZSBuZWVkZWQg cmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGZvciBkeW5hbWljIHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbnMuDQoNCkJhbGF6cyBoYXMgcHJv cG9zZWQgdGVtcG9yYXJpbHkgZ2V0dGluZyByaWQgTkVUQ09ORiBjb25maWd1cmVkIHN1YnNjcmlw dGlvbnMgc3VwcG9ydCB0byBtYWtlIHByb2dyZXNzLiAgVGhpcyB3b3VsZCByZXN1bHQgaW4gdGhl IHJlbW92YWwgb2YgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1uZXRjb25mLW5ldGNvbmYtZXZlbnQtbm90aWZpY2F0aW9u cyBzZWN0aW9uIDUuMiwgOCwgQS4zLCBhbmQgc2VjdGlvbiBBLjQuMSdzICJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb24t c3RhcnRlZCIgZXhhbXBsZS4gIFRoZXNlIHNlY3Rpb25zIHdvdWxkIGJlIHJldHVybmVkIHdpdGgg YSAtYmlzIGNvcnJlc3BvbmRpbmcgdG8gY2xpZW50LXNlcnZlciBkcmFmdCBhdmFpbGFiaWxpdHku DQoNCkVyaWMNCg0KPiBLZW50DQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Jul 5 11:41:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1891C130F4C for ; 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(was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 18:41:46 -0000 DQo+Pj4gV2h5IGRvZXMgdGhlcmUgbmVlZCB0byBiZSBhIGRlcGVuZGVuY3kgb24gdGhlIGNsaWVu dC1zZXJ2ZXIgbW9kdWxlPw0KPj4+IFRoZSBvbmx5IHRoaW5ncyBtaXNzaW5nIGZyb20gdGhlICJy ZWNlaXZlciIgbGlzdCBhcmUgMiBsZWFmcyAoaG9zdCwgcG9ydCkuDQo+Pg0KPj4gPEVyaWM+wqAg VGhpcyBpcyB3aGF0IHdhcyB0aGVyZSBpbml0aWFsbHkuwqDCoCBCdXQgc2V2ZXJhbCBwZW9wbGUg aGF2ZQ0KPj4gYXNzZXJ0ZWQgdGhhdCBob3N0IGFuZCBwb3J0IGludGVyYWN0cyBwb29ybHkgd2l0 aCBjYWxsLWhvbWUuwqDCoCANCg0KVGhlIGlzc3VlIGlzbid0IGNhbGwtaG9tZSwgcGVyIHNlLCB0 aGUgaXNzdWUgaXMgdGhhdCBhIHRyYW5zcG9ydC1pbmRlcGVuZGVudA0KZHJhZnQgc2hvdWxkIGxl YXZlIGFsbCB0cmFuc3BvcnQtc3BlY2lmaWMgZGV0YWlscyB0byB0aGUgdHJhbnNwb3J0IGRyYWZ0 cy4NCg0KDQo+IE9mIGNvdXJzZSBpdCBpbnRlcmFjdHMgcG9vcmx5IHdpdGggQ2FsbEhvbWUsIGJl Y2F1c2UgdGhlIHJlY2VpdmVyIGxpc3QgaXMNCj4gdXNlZCBJTlNURUFEIG9mIENhbGxIb21lLCBu b3Qgd2l0aCBDYWxsSG9tZS4gQ0ggaXMgZm9yIGluaXRpYXRpbmcgYSBuZXcgTkMNCj4gb3IgUkMg c2Vzc2lvbiwgc28gYSAic3BlY2lhbCIgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiBpdCB0aGF0IGRvZXNuJ3QgaW5pdGlh dGUgYSBzZXNzaW9uDQo+IHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgbWlzdXNlLg0KDQpJIGRvbid0IGZvbGxvdyB0aGlz IGNvbW1lbnQuICBGb3IgY29uZmlndXJlZCBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zLCB0aGUgZGV2aWNlIGlzDQpk ZWZpbml0ZWx5IGluaXRpYXRpbmcgdGhlIHVuZGVybHlpbmcgdHJhbnNwb3J0IGNvbm5lY3Rpb24g YW5kLCBpbiB0aGUgY2FzZQ0Kb2YgTkMvUkMsIHdlJ3ZlIGRldGVybWluZWQgdGhhdCB0aGUgaWV0 Zi0qY29uZi1zZXJ2ZXIncyBjYWxsLWhvbWUgbWVjaGFuaXNtDQppcyBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZS4NCg0K DQpLZW50IC8vIGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9yDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Jul 5 12:16:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8F5130F52 for ; 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Thu, 05 Jul 2018 12:16:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 12:16:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 12:16:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Balazs Lengyel , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cd7efe057045634e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 19:16:58 -0000 --000000000000cd7efe057045634e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 11:41 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > >>> Why does there need to be a dependency on the client-server module? > >>> The only things missing from the "receiver" list are 2 leafs (host, > port). > >> > >> This is what was there initially. But several people have > >> asserted that host and port interacts poorly with call-home. > > The issue isn't call-home, per se, the issue is that a > transport-independent > draft should leave all transport-specific details to the transport drafts. > > The current "receiver" list is not usable as a standard. IMO the need for a (host, port) tuple is not enough to require new modules, but I do not object to removing the configured subscriptions because they have to wait for other YANG modules. > > > Of course it interacts poorly with CallHome, because the receiver list is > > used INSTEAD of CallHome, not with CallHome. CH is for initiating a new > NC > > or RC session, so a "special" version of it that doesn't initiate a > session > > would be a misuse. > > I don't follow this comment. For configured subscriptions, the device is > definitely initiating the underlying transport connection and, in the case > of NC/RC, we've determined that the ietf-*conf-server's call-home mechanism > is appropriate. > CallHome is for initiating the NETCONF or RESTCONF protocol. It applies to dynamic subscriptions. E.g., our server initiates a CH session and the controller starts the session and decides what operations to send (such as establish-subscription). CH does not allow the client to use the TCP connection for any other purpose. > > Kent // contributor > > > > Andy --000000000000cd7efe057045634e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 11:41 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

>>> Why does there need to be a dependency on the client-server mo= dule?
>>> The only things missing from the "receiver" list are= 2 leafs (host, port).
>>
>> <Eric>=C2=A0 This is what was there initially.=C2=A0=C2=A0 B= ut several people have
>> asserted that host and port interacts poorly with call-home.=C2=A0= =C2=A0

The issue isn't call-home, per se, the issue is that a transport-indepe= ndent
draft should leave all transport-specific details to the transport drafts.<= br>


The current "recei= ver" list is not usable as a standard.
IMO the need for a (h= ost, port) tuple is not enough to require new modules,
but I do n= ot object to removing the configured subscriptions because
they h= ave to wait for other YANG modules.

=C2=A0

> Of course it interacts poorly with CallHome, because the receiver list= is
> used INSTEAD of CallHome, not with CallHome. CH is for initiating a ne= w NC
> or RC session, so a "special" version of it that doesn't= initiate a session
> would be a misuse.

I don't follow this comment.=C2=A0 For configured subscriptions, the de= vice is
definitely initiating the underlying transport connection and, in the case<= br> of NC/RC, we've determined that the ietf-*conf-server's call-home m= echanism
is appropriate.


CallHome= is for initiating the NETCONF or RESTCONF protocol.
It applies t= o dynamic subscriptions. E.g., our server initiates a CH session
= and the controller starts the session and decides what operations to send
(such as establish-subscription).

CH does= not allow the client to use the TCP connection for any other purpose.




Kent // contributor




Andy
=C2=A0

<= /div>
--000000000000cd7efe057045634e-- From nobody Thu Jul 5 13:03:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729B412E039 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 13:03:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eipoOI12hoCA for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 13:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 046B5130DC3 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 13:03:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=12076; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530821001; x=1532030601; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=eB21I17v26xovW5Ip2t2X27dT93/Fk7XutdFAAwuD84=; b=Tbvv58U8qM98dsE1EIP7xOn76XAYqCIRDSsOZ4+E75NstnEX7fWARVzM IX0QkZM9fZA9OfLpOYTBUtaZ9jrn8pp78UTg+A8Zl3LZWrhXgBTwopiXo 9FkwHc1Cy6DHEEWNOTwvLXVqpHWuyV23rlWPlftbGorbFnltmXOv8vOa0 M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C0AADLeD5b/51dJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYJTdmJ/KAqDcIgEjDWCB5AihQ6BeguEbAIXghYhNBgBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAgEBAm0ohTYBAQEBAgEjCkoCBQsCAQgVEBYEAwICAjAUEQIEAQ0FCIMZgRt?= =?us-ascii?q?cCKllghyIUIE6iG2BVj+DcC6EZCQogkuCVQKZTAkCjxaNX5FiAhETAYEkHTi?= =?us-ascii?q?BUnAVO4JpgkyOBm+OPYEVBQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,313,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="409372851" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 05 Jul 2018 20:03:21 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (xch-rtp-012.cisco.com [64.101.220.152]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w65K3Knf030567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Jul 2018 20:03:21 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (64.101.220.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:03:20 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:03:20 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Andy Bierman , Kent Watsen CC: Balazs Lengyel , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) Thread-Index: AQHUC7Bk2NEfjxedcUmM/mAqvL2qMaRxMGsAgABNWwCACxi18IABmkaAgAGYmoCAAULPAP//0YNQgABHwID//82wUIAASBaAgAAQFQCAAAnZgP//xsyA Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 20:03:20 +0000 Message-ID: <9ac13af1919c4abc8428398a17ad940b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9ac13af1919c4abc8428398a17ad940bXCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? 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IGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPiZuYnNwOzxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4N CjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rp dj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_9ac13af1919c4abc8428398a17ad940bXCHRTP013ciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Jul 5 13:19:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02557130DE3 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 13:19:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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Watsen To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Andy Bierman CC: Henk Birkholz , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? 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Thu, 05 Jul 2018 13:21:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 13:21:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9ac13af1919c4abc8428398a17ad940b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <9ac13af1919c4abc8428398a17ad940b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 13:21:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Kent Watsen , Balazs Lengyel , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d7e9cc0570464930" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 20:21:17 -0000 --000000000000d7e9cc0570464930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 1:03 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > *From:* Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 3:17 PM > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 11:41 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > >>> Why does there need to be a dependency on the client-server module? > >>> The only things missing from the "receiver" list are 2 leafs (host, > port). > >> > >> This is what was there initially. But several people have > >> asserted that host and port interacts poorly with call-home. > > The issue isn't call-home, per se, the issue is that a > transport-independent > draft should leave all transport-specific details to the transport drafts. > > > > > > The current "receiver" list is not usable as a standard. > > IMO the need for a (host, port) tuple is not enough to require new modules, > > but I do not object to removing the configured subscriptions because > > they have to wait for other YANG modules. > > > > > > Of course it interacts poorly with CallHome, because the receiver list is > > used INSTEAD of CallHome, not with CallHome. CH is for initiating a new > NC > > or RC session, so a "special" version of it that doesn't initiate a > session > > would be a misuse. > > I don't follow this comment. For configured subscriptions, the device is > definitely initiating the underlying transport connection and, in the case > of NC/RC, we've determined that the ietf-*conf-server's call-home mechanism > is appropriate. > > > > > > CallHome is for initiating the NETCONF or RESTCONF protocol. > > It applies to dynamic subscriptions. E.g., our server initiates a CH > session > > and the controller starts the session and decides what operations to send > > (such as establish-subscription). > > > > CH does not allow the client to use the TCP connection for any other > purpose. > > > > Initiating a Call Home before a dynamic subscription is absolutely > fine. Luckily this step is out of scope for the subscription drafts, as > the transport session is already available when the establish-subscription > comes in. > > > It is not fine according to RFC 8071. The techniques described in this document are suitable for network management scenarios such as the ones described in Section 1.1. However, these techniques are only defined for NETCONF Call Home and RESTCONF Call Home, as described in this document. ...Any use of call home with SSH/TLS for purposes other than NETCONF or RESTCONF will need a thorough contextual risk assessment. ... If your server opens a TCP connection to the client and does anything other than the procedures in RFC 8071, then it isn't CallHome. It is something new that should be specified in an RFC and approved by the IETF. > Eric > > > Andy > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > Andy > > > > > --000000000000d7e9cc0570464930 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 1:03 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <= ;evoit@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:

From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 3:17 PM

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 11:41 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:


>>> Why does there need to be a dependency on the client-server mo= dule?
>>> The only things missing from the "receiver" list are= 2 leafs (host, port).
>>
>> <Eric>=C2=A0 This is what was there initially.=C2=A0=C2=A0 B= ut several people have
>> asserted that host and port interacts poorly with call-home.=C2=A0= =C2=A0

The issue isn't call-home, per se, the issue is that a transport-indepe= ndent
draft should leave all transport-specific details to the transport drafts.<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The current "receiver" list is not usable = as a standard.

IMO the need for a (host, port) tuple is not enough = to require new modules,

but I do not object to removing the configured subsc= riptions because

they have to wait for other YANG modules.<= /u>

=C2=A0


> Of course it interacts poorly with CallHome, because the receiver list= is
> used INSTEAD of CallHome, not with CallHome. CH is for initiating a ne= w NC
> or RC session, so a "special" version of it that doesn't= initiate a session
> would be a misuse.

I don't follow this comment.=C2=A0 For configured subscriptions, the de= vice is
definitely initiating the underlying transport connection and, in the case<= br> of NC/RC, we've determined that the ietf-*conf-server's call-home m= echanism
is appropriate.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

CallHome is for initiating the NETCONF or RESTCONF p= rotocol.

It applies to dynamic subscriptions. E.g., our serve= r initiates a CH session

and the controller starts the session and decides wh= at operations to send

(such as establish-subscription).

=C2=A0

CH does not allow the client to use the TCP connecti= on for any other purpose.

=C2=A0

<Eric> Initiating a Call Home before a= dynamic subscription is absolutely fine.=C2=A0 Luckily this step is out of= scope for the subscription drafts, as the transport session is already available when the establish-subscription comes in.<= /u>




   The techniques described in this document ar=
e suitable for network
   management scenarios such as the ones described in Section 1.1.
   However, these techniques are only defined for NETCONF Call Home and=C2=
=A0
   RESTCONF Call Home, as described in this document.

<= div>that should be specified in an RFC and approved by the IETF.



Kent // contributor


=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


--000000000000d7e9cc0570464930-- From nobody Thu Jul 5 14:04:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BC12130F80 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 14:04:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EpthkGyqBMrX for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 14:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with 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AQHT7qXx6AR0hwD/VEqFVDxs31zp6aQ1kroAgAAEGoCAAA8IgIAAYuSAgCWiwACAAZ7SAIAK57IAgAEbxgD//+unAIAAbY0AgAEjt4CAAFpqAIABijQAgABnB4CABEKyAIAAYEAAgAGXzICAAGAlAIACiM+AgADqEoCABwS9AIAC/jeA Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 21:04:07 +0000 Message-ID: <3F268B34-FD60-44FB-871E-6A4B403E3CF1@juniper.net> References: <89a99290a9ff4addb3d8c537aae89dbf@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180629.101057.1590202307624767148.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BYAPR05MB4056; 7:jKxPBiqS8FCXwwXEzh5qWwVvEoqX3SZZJAeLs0fA7ZIWpFelh1VchxwckqWlDzf70+qFTMqlBTqCwBfUeKsP2dtZCQN+OGVCt2030RuNBGuaOb81xOou7ShTjNwVuJyXjwJgwXAFZs2kVwF3G8DrwSqUevXjYLYqt4j01c196yLLvDWT/80EdDbxY/y7+4Yo+UuN9qD4r9V9c3UJ1OdQRVFe4Fmt+YIZS+u2k+68dnqnxQhTjFOHoLanuYShTRqD x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; 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nN6yj4U88Olzj1CNB9O6MLWGklyW8qZoMXP8WKd/jJlmz0qnf1/bYNSlNNPJ7roUXa2t1RnyES02K65jlFNEFOBzYnIou3WU/xFDAcXthcOlTCruFzoRMLNaFCNanD2V20I/xApBAH8CcIpAeLFeQeAefNUYIPBVnS4OI93jFgo4nibu2rzxE1KFpU5g7c3453qJKDInoon1iJ6kLPg7ZIO97BwDKm3n7PQgFoOHceFwp3wnZdAuihpxuDn9+yNUXDVxIfZWV+6OzgdHo1ByVfFO8fwk2AqfYsNqwWV1R6pEdLfY4+DWCoQsG3Fcsxt7ZxcEoFJ0G4+xYgApoN2U32zALcpZ+mGseKg4rPq42Ig= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f1ecf5a1-7cfd-4020-ade7-08d5e2bad948 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Jul 2018 21:04:07.8645 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB4056 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-05_08:, , 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dGhlIE5OIGRyYWZ0Li4uDQoNClRoYW5rcywNCktlbnQNCg0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Thu Jul 5 15:19:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB53D130ED0 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 15:19:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0xJXHkyM60uy for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 15:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com 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AQHTvAAnlMdwSaUGiEGsguuFvEIgr6PTNMYAgAKRSACAHsEbAIAEpeaAgAxV1oCAAIbkgIAIxKuAgAHWLYCAAWPcgIABfIqAgBLPcYCAAfAGAIAHv+mAgAFNpYCADOOSAIABWNGAgArMEgCAAKtggIASeyqAgAHUMQCADcgmAIAA1tCAgAPW54CAAFbTgIAECbMAgAh/NICAAvaHAA== Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 22:19:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <17B884BF-0BB8-4B7C-BFBB-0AAFBEA857F6@juniper.net> <040a01d3be9f$09700490$1c500db0$@clemm.org> <2089023D-DA09-48E9-8F37-8FE459DC4F49@juniper.net> <1EC2E732-C524-4552-A3AD-27507239F763@juniper.net> <2b788c22f7ee4af889813b805348d69a@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <9E7F3A66-98B9-4528-882C-43AAD19F0AEC@juniper.net> <96615f0331cd455182901ddf3e6ece23@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <7F8F2AF4-28A5-4016-B727-10CAF6A093AF@juniper.net> <87fbe3cb907a473f816295c4545bd7fa@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <3b4744f4e2144ee18b9bfd5225360bf4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <01486F5E-CEE3-4BDD-9CD2-CA2754981000@juniper.net> <49943A03-D229-4084-9947-3065CE58A672@juniper.net> <470391DD-9A9E-47EC-9CEC-E8E6BABE3DDF@juniper.net> <38DB151D-81C9-49E4-B6A3-73D083298C53@juniper.net> <230D4B7A-42E6-4A9E-909B-BE91EE5D2FF3@juniper.net> <4146A91F-42E3-4C81-A414-C27920CA30C0@juniper.net> <9721a7a06f9543a1b510988b087da6b3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9721a7a06f9543a1b510988b087da6b3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BYAPR05MB4469; 7:rU316C1fsDLBi1kKG6KcedNP8t+knDSz0iKXfIc+pdKtUTYyGvS0qqW1BihrPCABceLcj7ikbkn0j79KbDj/FdZM8+HWeID4KqwA78RIQ4GZ/oIdIsjWORfXaOiUCos2vjE9/se/zHVlT6uD4nnCjdblgowyC/6tvya/MQApoF5cuueiUicPrI0d36bguYt6bG68+oNVuLj8f+FrCptxrivtRx1CMI1PjMUcsLTZBZLjpGnhis8l5NMM+tAXFTEe x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4c02cfc5-ac85-4504-afd8-08d5e2c55837 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; 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(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Jul 2018 23:08:43 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 19:08:42 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 19:08:42 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Kent Watsen , Andy Bierman CC: Henk Birkholz , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) Thread-Index: AQHUC7Bk2NEfjxedcUmM/mAqvL2qMaRxMGsAgABNWwCACxi18IABmkaAgAGYmoD//77DcIABoTAA///VGaCAAGgzgP//2i4Q Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 23:08:42 +0000 Message-ID: <04c12295eafa4ae38d240817aefb792f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <2707704d84354cb784e0d2ae001bc599@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <43507a18831540f195c9c2179c781155@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <796FAB55-5BFE-41A2-A447-6E65A552D76C@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <796FAB55-5BFE-41A2-A447-6E65A552D76C@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 23:08:47 -0000 PiBGcm9tOiBLZW50IFdhdHNlbiwgSnVseSA1LCAyMDE4IDQ6MTkgUE0NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiA+IE15 IHVuZGVmaW5lZCBwb2ludCB3YXMgdGhhdCBsZWF2aW5nIE5FVENPTkYtTm90aWYgb3BlbiBtZWFu cyB0aGF0ICB3ZQ0KPiA+IGRvbid0IHByb2dyZXNzIHNlY3Rpb25zIDMsIDQsIDUuMSwgNiwgNyAs ICYgMTAgb2YNCj4gPiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLW5ldGNvbmYtbmV0Y29uZi1ldmVudC1ub3RpZmljYXRp b25zIHRvd2FyZHMgUkZDLg0KPiA+IFRoZXNlIHNlY3Rpb25zIGNvbnRhaW4gdGhlIG5lZWRlZCBy ZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgZm9yIGR5bmFtaWMNCj4gPiBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zLg0KPiANCj4gSSBzZWUs IHRoYXQncyB0b28gYmFkLCBhcyBJIHdhcyBob3BpbmcgdGhhdCB3ZSBjb3VsZCBqdXN0IG5vdCBw cm9ncmVzcyB0aGUgIm5vdGlmIg0KPiBkb2N1bWVudHMgYXQgYWxsLiAgTGV0J3MgcmV2aWV3IHRo ZXNlIHNlY3Rpb25zIHRvIHNlZSB3aGF0J3MgcG9zc2libGU6DQo+IA0KPiAgIFNlY3Rpb24gMzog 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Clemm Thread-Topic: [Netconf] LC on subscribed-notifications-10 Thread-Index: AQHTvAAnP4UPxNeFY0CSJ8tCCoPN1aPROUcQgATP1QCAHwQrAIADjkNQgA1teoD//750sIAJjRkA///cqgCAA11fAIAAqbKwgBOiSQCAARvxAIAIk/4AgACP9NCADaFDgIAAiRzAgAubxgD///ywEAJlO7OAACjJQxABysFmgAAIUZsAAI1lOQAABkzf0ACFw/GAAP59NtAAcDoxgAAGk67A Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 00:06:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <17B884BF-0BB8-4B7C-BFBB-0AAFBEA857F6@juniper.net> <040a01d3be9f$09700490$1c500db0$@clemm.org> <2089023D-DA09-48E9-8F37-8FE459DC4F49@juniper.net> <1EC2E732-C524-4552-A3AD-27507239F763@juniper.net> <2b788c22f7ee4af889813b805348d69a@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <9E7F3A66-98B9-4528-882C-43AAD19F0AEC@juniper.net> <96615f0331cd455182901ddf3e6ece23@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <7F8F2AF4-28A5-4016-B727-10CAF6A093AF@juniper.net> <87fbe3cb907a473f816295c4545bd7fa@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <3b4744f4e2144ee18b9bfd5225360bf4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <01486F5E-CEE3-4BDD-9CD2-CA2754981000@juniper.net> <49943A03-D229-4084-9947-3065CE58A672@juniper.net> <470391DD-9A9E-47EC-9CEC-E8E6BABE3DDF@juniper.net> <38DB151D-81C9-49E4-B6A3-73D083298C53@juniper.net> <230D4B7A-42E6-4A9E-909B-BE91EE5D2FF3@juniper.net> <4146A91F-42E3-4C81-A414-C27920CA30C0@juniper.net> <9721a7a06f9543a1b510988b087da6b3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_a7d654fc37284449ba8c1306a9ce3146XCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] LC on subscribed-notifications-10 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 00:07:12 -0000 --_000_a7d654fc37284449ba8c1306a9ce3146XCHRTP013ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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CjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_a7d654fc37284449ba8c1306a9ce3146XCHRTP013ciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Jul 6 02:03:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D553D130E78 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 02:03:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NPCQg8bYeq2X for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 02:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80DFC130DF3 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 02:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 2184763678C06; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:03:44 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.73) by LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:03:45 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.193]) by nkgeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 17:03:42 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Kent Watsen , Andy Bierman , Balazs Lengyel CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments Thread-Index: AQHUFHIPJkzJWXW1BE+UQ4og/X05xqSARWmAgAAQm4CAAY8BoA== Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:03:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: 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10:17:55 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------276CA6006BC29FC4816CBEAC" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 09:18:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------276CA6006BC29FC4816CBEAC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 05/07/2018 17:07, Andy Bierman wrote: > Hi, > > I think the first-order issue is for the WG to decide if there is a > problem to be > solved by this WG, and if so, what is the problem scope. +1. I actually wonder whether extending RESTCONF wouldn't be a more efficient path here.  Adding support for CBOR to RESTCONF looks like it would be much easier than adding it to NETCONF. But then, it is unclear to me what the long term relationship between NETCONF and RESTCONF is meant to be. Thanks, Rob > > Details like the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply, etc do not really > impact that decision. > > When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in > improving the > efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV. > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bierman-netconf-efficiency-extensions-00 > > I think this draft should focus on the protocol mechanisms and not define > any media types. Definitions of GPB and other formats are not trivial > and need > their own RFCs. > > > Andy > > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel > > wrote: > > Hello, > Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary encoding > be interesting? > > Chapter 2) > > - A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be > good. What is the top XML element that will be encoded? , > , , ? Just referencing a > figure in another draft is not enough. > > - SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for > the XML encoding? Is that always implicit? State it. > > 4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here? > > I would think that all encodings need some official reference, > defining how they are used with YANG: RFC, web link > > Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described > somewhere or do we need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is > the case. > > regards Balazs > > > > > > -- > Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd. > Senior Specialist > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: > Balazs..Lengyel@ericsson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf --------------276CA6006BC29FC4816CBEAC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 05/07/2018 17:07, Andy Bierman wrote:
Hi,

I think the first-order issue is for the WG to decide if there is a problem to be
solved by this WG, and if so, what is the problem scope.
+1.

I actually wonder whether extending RESTCONF wouldn't be a more efficient path here.  Adding support for CBOR to RESTCONF looks like it would be much easier than adding it to NETCONF.

But then, it is unclear to me what the long term relationship between NETCONF and RESTCONF is meant to be.

Thanks,
Rob
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(evoit)" To: Qin Wu , "Zhengguangying (Walker) (zhengguangying@huawei.com)" CC: "netconf@ietf.org" , Rohit R Ranade , Aijun Wang Thread-Topic: Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF Thread-Index: AdQTOvQ+DGsUYeJXQ/uaFzBxunpGvAABkhagAAO3KjAAAum+QAAAi6mgAHUafGA= Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 14:37:57 +0000 Message-ID: <567b64b502cf47cd84bf9f53f760a8fa@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC8F99@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC90C8@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.228] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_567b64b502cf47cd84bf9f53f760a8faXCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 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--_000_567b64b502cf47cd84bf9f53f760a8faXCHRTP013ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Qin

Hi Walker,

 

From: = Qin Wu, July 4, 2018 2:19 AM

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Rohit R Ranade
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C24=C8=D5 14:01
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu
=B3=AD=CB=CD: netconf@ietf.org; Zhengguangying (Walker)
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: Solicit comments on in= line action capability for NETCONF

 

 

[Qin]:Yes, invoking ac= tion on configuration datastore is our key use cases,e.g., batch operation = on 100 interfaces and enable Interface statistics and

Then set MTU value to = a specific interface. Enable interface statistics on 100 interfaces will ha= ppen first and then MTU value setup.

These operations have = no conflict risk and can execute in any order in one transaction, it will b= e great to introduce this multi-sub operations in one transaction.

[Rohit R Ranade]= But why must this happen in single transaction ? If done as two separate R= PC what is the impact ?

 

 

[Qin]: Improve transac= tion efficiency is one of important motivations. Separate action from <e= dit-config> operation, you still need to handle action that is part of &= lt;config> element within

<edit-config> op= eration.

=  

<E= ric> Interesting thread.   Two questions:

=  

(1) W= ith multiple transactions in one, I initially read this as you might want t= o support the edit config failing if the action fails (i.e., an error comin= g result from the action on the operational datastore).  And the result is that the aggregate transaction would f= ail across datastores.  

=  

Now l= ooking at your responses on this thread, it looks like that your use case i= s non-interdependent configuration actions.  Based on that, which of t= he following do you want to considering in scope?  And if only (a), you should likely add more to the scope stat= ement.

=  

(a) s= ingle datastore edit and actions, where each atomic edit will complete or f= ail independently

(b) s= ingle datastore edit and actions, where the full operation fails if any com= ponent fails

(c) c= ross datastore edit and actions, where the full operation fails if any comp= onent fails

=  

(2) D= o you see any cases where the action operation must occur after the edit co= nfig?  I.e., the action depends on a successful edit config happening = first.

=  

Thank= s,

Eric<= o:p>

 

In Some other cases wh= en action is invoked in operational state datastore, we can use <operati= onal> to get learned configuration and translate them into static config= uration.

[Rohit R Ranade]= We can still do this. We can get learned configuration from <operationa= l>, and if need to translate to static we can always create such configu= ration in <running>=

 

[Qin]:Have we already = had standard mechanism to translate learned into static? I see none.

 

With Regards,

Rohit R Ranade

 

From: = Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu
Sent: 04 July 2018 07:32
To: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for = NETCONF

 =

Hi, Folks:

We have posted inline action capability draft on Jun= 28:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14823.html<= /span>

 
One comment we received from the list is:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14863.ht=
ml
The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment.

Therefore we would like to draw you attention again = on this draft

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zheng-netconf-inline-ac=
tion-capability-01

We would like to receive more review and feedback on= this draft, thanks.

 

-Qin

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([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 11:58:59 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Robert Wilton , Andy Bierman , Balazs Lengyel CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments Thread-Index: AQHUFQpFGmG2z4NKtECrmCRZREooWKSCWV3g Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 15:58:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> <79d3af9b-dd0c-833b-491f-a25a54a38559@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <79d3af9b-dd0c-833b-491f-a25a54a38559@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.228] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d294d42a2c8c4e8186f49ac5429da06bXCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list 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SMTP id l73-v6mr8201987lfk.102.1530892762728; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 08:59:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 08:59:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <79d3af9b-dd0c-833b-491f-a25a54a38559@cisco.com> References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> <79d3af9b-dd0c-833b-491f-a25a54a38559@cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 08:59:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Wilton Cc: Balazs Lengyel , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004fde1f057056bfe7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 15:59:29 -0000 --0000000000004fde1f057056bfe7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:17 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: > > > On 05/07/2018 17:07, Andy Bierman wrote: > > Hi, > > I think the first-order issue is for the WG to decide if there is a > problem to be > solved by this WG, and if so, what is the problem scope. > > +1. > > I actually wonder whether extending RESTCONF wouldn't be a more efficient > path here. Adding support for CBOR to RESTCONF looks like it would be much > easier than adding it to NETCONF. > of course, because HTTP already supports content-type negotiation. There is nothing to add to RESTCONF. You can use other media types than XML or JSON now. > But then, it is unclear to me what the long term relationship between > NETCONF and RESTCONF is meant to be. > > Maybe "let the market decide" and not worry about it too much in the IETF > Thanks, > Rob > > Andy > > > Details like the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply, etc do not really > impact that decision. > > When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in > improving the > efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV. > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bierman-netconf-efficiency-extensions-00 > > I think this draft should focus on the protocol mechanisms and not define > any media types. Definitions of GPB and other formats are not trivial and > need > their own RFCs. > > > Andy > > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > >> Hello, >> Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary encoding be >> interesting? >> >> Chapter 2) >> >> - A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be good. >> What is the top XML element that will be encoded? , , >> , ? Just referencing a figure in another draft is >> not enough. >> >> - SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for the XML >> encoding? Is that always implicit? State it. >> >> 4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here? >> >> I would think that all encodings need some official reference, defining >> how they are used with YANG: RFC, web link >> >> Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere or do >> we need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case. >> >> regards Balazs >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. >> Senior Specialist >> Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs..Lengyel@ericsson.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Netconf mailing list >> Netconf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing listNetconf@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > --0000000000004fde1f057056bfe7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:17 AM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:
=20 =20 =20



On 05/07/2018 17:07,= Andy Bierman wrote:
=20
Hi,

I think the first-order issue is for the WG to decide if there is a problem to be
solved by this WG, and if so, what is the problem scope.
+1.

I actually wonder whether extending RESTCONF wouldn't be a more efficient path here.=C2=A0 Adding support for CBOR to RESTCONF looks li= ke it would be much easier than adding it to NETCONF.

of course, because HTTP already supports content-type= negotiation.
There is nothing to add to RESTCONF.
You = can use other media types than XML or JSON now.


But then, it is unclear to me what the long term relationship between NETCONF and RESTCONF is meant to be.


Maybe "let the market d= ecide" and not worry about it too much in the IETF

=C2=A0
Thanks,
Rob



Andy
=C2=A0


Details like the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply, etc do not really impact that decision.

When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in improving the
efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV.


I think this draft should focus on the protocol mechanisms and not define
any media types. Definitions of GPB and other formats are not trivial and need
their own RFCs.


Andy


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>= ; wrote:
Hello,
Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary encoding be interesting?

Chapter 2)

- A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be good. What is the top XML element that will be encoded? <rpc>, <RPC-reply>, <RPC-error>, <notification> ? Just referencing a figure in another draft is not enough.

- SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for the XML encoding? Is that always implicit? State it.

4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here?

I would think that all encodings need some official reference, defining how they are used with YANG: RFC, web link

Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere or do we need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case.

regards Balazs





--
Balazs Lengyel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: Balazs..Lengyel@ericsson.com

_______________________________________________ Netconf mailing list
N= etconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/netconf



_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/netconf


--0000000000004fde1f057056bfe7-- From nobody Fri Jul 6 09:35:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB0B130F12 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:35:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ThRQWcz4nHF for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:35:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6ABF0130FFA for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id y17-v6so4793295ljy.8 for ; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 09:35:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GXMdAuMtbjwZDpAmBbQHPRvjx6re7tzUP0B/3FyVcTg=; b=Re50WA3MBGO8ceMr8sXZuLvTFLWrZ8QAGwno8iMz4wj6CWDcyc+AR4hPnKgrBYC4UX dE+m54p8fYYvWAQcOXJblsMjwfByK7oRaIVG6QsJEc/dsVHXYGfzf2/yTwb+UG46o74h TXmAVqHsW02cdhMjjYaSUgyqwAYGn1f2RygVZIk1VX2mIbKtG2MJi6CW1kocBv/yU/c1 QgeQjfR3Nc4DuBseWT8Q4S+TIZRcvpwJrA2yHK56XPLdyyXV14eyr5/GrYrQ5y2I50aw DA2RNXe2Upym2HtUT75mHh03o2GEU5qaCf/yi3JpsokS+tR8jO6ivFzYVG54tsraiYQP UFSA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GXMdAuMtbjwZDpAmBbQHPRvjx6re7tzUP0B/3FyVcTg=; b=j0bpi67nIjwIg4PEsXVJa/q5Emkx0VnOShiK4le9JbmUGqEKt/FJyZejpj0jWYqJ+X sUDE5OwpnWuUx6ecynDWdmvdL7NIOgkJnmVeMZwsjvkiaNeMaeE4Xi8kQZdG2E62M27y VfOb4mb6ScGZvgC4gjR8F4ZlsEi79tsyEs7JjPRwPFtttRG8YyJEHpq/8LvH5oSJuOzw xdx98RuAH+qRO5GYq/lTFaLOYFq2dqx0GJM2SnJxDKP/B/3/tGuC0HBevNpDZ5CvRM3P pJqli4JYFno4HkOp322HT2zUEcYbPi0qfCG+NlPcrInjmqlbhdFeHZHOIHFAILbZ9LMI AMWg== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E28Orsw5h5oZiARLY+zud7uHFBYJGO8XdJTQfoFAdJuXblqEmZ5 CiwS+bAV5RSCqU1KS4dnirlS+oHSFm8sPLsqJY+uAg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeORg+oqc+LaaO137uUD0u8fKzSmBtx5tWlysPMLsMGxJeOfgFjRUnzbbMi57DWJlq1bb8PbOxjNdZr3SNY4DU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3613:: with SMTP id d19-v6mr6780905lja.31.1530894912550; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 09:35:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:35:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:35:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: Balazs Lengyel , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000739ee00570573f6d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 16:35:20 -0000 --000000000000739ee00570573f6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:06 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in > improving > > > the efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV. > > > > I agree that there is little appetite to improve the efficiency of > configuration-oriented > > workflows. Monitoring, for which notifications supports in a big way, > have a strong > > push for efficiency. I think the primary question is if this efficiency > must be realizable > > for NC/RC based subscriptions, or if the efficiency can come from the use > of more > > suitable transports (e.g., gRPC), that can be defined by future "notif" > drafts? > > > > If we were only interested in such efficiency for configured > subscriptions, then I think > > a "notif" draft to define the transport would be relatively easy. If > such efficiency is > > also needed for dynamic subscriptions, then it seems like something along > the lines > > of what binary-encoding draft proposes might be needed. > > > > Is there a need for efficiency for any other workflow? What about for > RPCs that are > > executed often (e.g., polling) or return very large responses? Does we > care about > > making these use cases more efficient too, or are we primarily only > interested in > > just making notifications efficient? > > > RESTCONF/HTTP has the ability to change message encoding on every message, but I have never seen it used this way. Client developers pick XML or JSON as the preferred media type (in the Accept header) and do not change it. So the idea that a client will use XML when it expects short replies, and use binary when it expects long replies does not make sense. It is possible a notif-only solution is all that is needed for NETCONF. Kent > Andy > > > > > > > On 7/5/18, 12:07 PM, "Netconf on behalf of Andy Bierman" < > netconf-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of andy@yumaworks.com> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I think the first-order issue is for the WG to decide if there is a > problem to be > > solved by this WG, and if so, what is the problem scope. > > > > Details like the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply, etc do not really > impact that decision. > > > > When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in > improving the > > efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV. > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bierman-netconf-efficiency-extensions-0= 0 > > > > > I think this draft should focus on the protocol mechanisms and not define > > any media types. Definitions of GPB and other formats are not trivial and > need > > their own RFCs. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel < > balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hello, > Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary encoding be > interesting? > > Chapter 2) > > - A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be good. > What is the top XML element that will be encoded? , , > , ? Just referencing a figure in another draft = is > not enough. > > - SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for the XML > encoding? Is that always implicit? State it. > > 4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here? > > I would think that all encodings need some official reference, defining > how they are used with YANG: RFC, web link > > Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere or do > we need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case. > > regards Balazs > > > > > > -- > Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. > Senior Specialist > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs..Lengyel@ericsson.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > --000000000000739ee00570573f6d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:06 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

=C2=A0=

> When I brou= ght up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in improving

> the efficie= ncy of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV.<= /p>

=C2=A0=

I agree that the= re is little appetite to improve the efficiency of configuration-oriented

workflows.=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Monitoring, for which notifications supports in a big way, have a st= rong

push for efficie= ncy.=C2=A0 I think the primary question is if this efficiency must be reali= zable

for NC/RC based = subscriptions, or if the efficiency can come from the use of more=

suitable transpo= rts (e.g., gRPC), that can be defined by future "notif" drafts?

=C2=A0=

If we were only = interested in such efficiency for configured subscriptions, then I think=

a "notif&qu= ot; draft to define the transport would be relatively easy.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If = such efficiency is

also needed for = dynamic subscriptions, then it seems like something along the lines

of what binary-e= ncoding draft proposes might be needed.

=C2=A0=

Is there a need = for efficiency for any other workflow?=C2=A0=C2=A0 What about for RPCs that= are

executed often (= e.g., polling) or return very large responses?=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does we care abo= ut

making these use= cases more efficient too, or are we primarily only interested in=

just making noti= fications efficient?

=C2=A0


RESTCONF/HTTP has the = ability to change message encoding on every message,
but I have n= ever seen it used this way.=C2=A0 Client developers pick XML or JSON as the=
preferred media type (in the Accept header) and do not change it= .
So the idea that a client will use XML when it expects short re= plies,
and use binary when it expects long replies does not make = sense.
It is possible a notif-only solution is all that is needed= for NETCONF.


<= div class=3D"m_-5736357372298982186WordSection1">

Kent

<= /div>


Andy
<= br>
=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I think the first-order issue is for the WG to decid= e if there is a problem to be

solved by this WG, and if so, what is the problem sc= ope.

=C2=A0

Details like the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply,= etc do not really impact that decision.

=C2=A0

When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was z= ero interest in improving the

efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change t= hat POV.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think this draft should focus on the protocol mech= anisms and not define

any media types. Definitions of GPB and other format= s are not trivial and need

their own RFCs.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel <<= a href=3D"mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">balazs.leng= yel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello,
Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary encoding be intere= sting?

Chapter 2)

- A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be good. Wha= t is the top XML element that will be encoded? <rpc>, <RPC-reply&g= t;, <RPC-error>, <notification> ? Just referencing a figure in = another draft is not enough.

- SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for the XML en= coding? Is that always implicit? State it.

4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here?

I would think that all encodings need some official reference, defining how= they are used with YANG: RFC, web link

Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere or do w= e need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case.

regards Balazs





--
Balazs Lengyel=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Er= icsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist=
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: Balazs..Lengyel@ericsson.com

________________________= _______________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/n= etconf

=C2=A0


--000000000000739ee00570573f6d-- From nobody Fri Jul 6 09:38:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E60130E86 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:38:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mnh1mtravWvI for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 005C1126CC7 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:38:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=15087; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530895111; x=1532104711; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=84bVfhdYwHspyG4JqxGIuQda8lM+QqXATHWfEqJGWSU=; b=FLkH0tTmd9rvLfgEJIu83U6PtN44RqBwbRXQ1pS584PeYmP/Ln8jl2jC YNvlvUqkfVVzGhfNAy9foXmOrXj8rj+CyD3PT/B7DwPu2MX702YYoGEfH sKlnVdJtXffBh3aAiPATxsaj3qO8pP361BnXeztHw7rlqYrtaRhdMZylj o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C+AADM+T5b/xbLJq1cGgEBAQEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEIAQEBAYQrbRIog3qIBF+NXZAihQ4UgWYLGAEMhAFGAoJONBgBAgEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAm0cDIU2AQEBAQIBAQEhSwQHEAkCGCcDAgInHxEGDQYCAQGDHAGBdwgPjU2?= =?us-ascii?q?bSIIcH4Q8g3SBNQWKQz+BDyeCaIMYAQEDgSoBEgEJgxeCVQKRaodlCYYGgmS?= =?us-ascii?q?GMgaBQIQMgkaFRoo1ggOFU4FBOCY7cTMaCBsVO4JpgXQwF4hZhT8+MI0Zgjk?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,316,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="4954539" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 06 Jul 2018 16:38:29 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w66GcSZB007202; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:38:28 GMT To: Andy Bierman Cc: Balazs Lengyel , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> <79d3af9b-dd0c-833b-491f-a25a54a38559@cisco.com> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 17:38:28 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B9BDB29A6B8D1B516B9A1E0A" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 16:38:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B9BDB29A6B8D1B516B9A1E0A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 06/07/2018 16:59, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:17 AM, Robert Wilton > wrote: > > > > On 05/07/2018 17:07, Andy Bierman wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I think the first-order issue is for the WG to decide if there is >> a problem to be >> solved by this WG, and if so, what is the problem scope. > +1. > > I actually wonder whether extending RESTCONF wouldn't be a more > efficient path here.  Adding support for CBOR to RESTCONF looks > like it would be much easier than adding it to NETCONF. > > > of course, because HTTP already supports content-type negotiation. > There is nothing to add to RESTCONF. > You can use other media types than XML or JSON now. Yes, that should make it a very simple draft :-) > > > > But then, it is unclear to me what the long term relationship > between NETCONF and RESTCONF is meant to be. > > > Maybe "let the market decide" and not worry about it too much in the IETF My consideration was more: where should the NETCONF WG be spending its effort? Thanks, Rob > > Thanks, > Rob > > > > Andy > > >> >> Details like the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply, etc do not >> really impact that decision. >> >> When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest >> in improving the >> efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV. >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bierman-netconf-efficiency-extensions-00 >> >> >> I think this draft should focus on the protocol mechanisms and >> not define >> any media types. Definitions of GPB and other formats are not >> trivial and need >> their own RFCs. >> >> >> Andy >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel >> > > wrote: >> >> Hello, >> Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary >> encoding be interesting? >> >> Chapter 2) >> >> - A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded >> would be good. What is the top XML element that will be >> encoded? , , , ? >> Just referencing a figure in another draft is not enough. >> >> - SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support >> for the XML encoding? Is that always implicit? State it. >> >> 4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here? >> >> I would think that all encodings need some official >> reference, defining how they are used with YANG: RFC, web link >> >> Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described >> somewhere or do we need an RFC about it? Please state >> whichever is the case. >> >> regards Balazs >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Balazs Lengyel  Ericsson Hungary Ltd. >> Senior Specialist >> Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs..Lengyel@ericsson.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Netconf mailing list >> Netconf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Netconf mailing list >> Netconf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >> > > --------------B9BDB29A6B8D1B516B9A1E0A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 06/07/2018 16:59, Andy Bierman wrote:


On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:17 AM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:



On 05/07/2018 17:07, Andy Bierman wrote:
Hi,

I think the first-order issue is for the WG to decide if there is a problem to be
solved by this WG, and if so, what is the problem scope.
+1.

I actually wonder whether extending RESTCONF wouldn't be a more efficient path here.  Adding support for CBOR to RESTCONF looks like it would be much easier than adding it to NETCONF.

of course, because HTTP already supports content-type negotiation.
There is nothing to add to RESTCONF.
You can use other media types than XML or JSON now.
Yes, that should make it a very simple draft :-)





But then, it is unclear to me what the long term relationship between NETCONF and RESTCONF is meant to be.


Maybe "let the market decide" and not worry about it too much in the IETF
My consideration was more: where should the NETCONF WG be spending its effort?

Thanks,
Rob


 
Thanks,
Rob



Andy
 


Details like the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply, etc do not really impact that decision.

When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in improving the
efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV.


I think this draft should focus on the protocol mechanisms and not define
any media types. Definitions of GPB and other formats are not trivial and need
their own RFCs.


Andy


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hello,
Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary encoding be interesting?

Chapter 2)

- A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be good. What is the top XML element that will be encoded? <rpc>, <RPC-reply>, <RPC-error>, <notification> ? Just referencing a figure in another draft is not enough.

- SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for the XML encoding? Is that always implicit? State it.

4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here?

I would think that all encodings need some official reference, defining how they are used with YANG: RFC, web link

Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere or do we need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case.

regards Balazs





--
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs..Lengyel@ericsson.com

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf



_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf



--------------B9BDB29A6B8D1B516B9A1E0A-- From nobody Fri Jul 6 10:23:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 162FB130F02 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:23:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9KL4MmM2RmQE for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33305130ECC for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8927222F78C5; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 19:23:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 19:23:08 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Robert Wilton Cc: Andy Bierman , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180706172308.5ro5cjv3x7ujopsx@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Robert Wilton , Andy Bierman , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> <79d3af9b-dd0c-833b-491f-a25a54a38559@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 17:23:14 -0000 On Fri, Jul 06, 2018 at 05:38:28PM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote: > > My consideration was more: where should the NETCONF WG be spending its > effort? > So is there running code? Who is doing binary NETCONF and who is doing binary RESTCONF? What are the _measured_ (not expected) savings with binary NETCONF and binary RESTCONF? If all the running code moving binary values is neither NETCONF nor RESTCONF, why would we spent effort to extend NETCONF so that it can support multiple encodings? Are people eager to migrate from what they use to this new solution? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 6 10:42:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6BC7130E97 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:42:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ePZHm8YktI5i for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22c.google.com (mail-lf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A971130E6C for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id m12-v6so10410688lfc.10 for ; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:42:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=mTkLF+PwDd3TBreOh5/0kVyr3Dr/NOGFt34eUXHZS4g=; b=bu0W/gqOEzcVhFAiRuDqi8EBFDFn98MATAsajyPkZwFAZvsIwrAriinIydAQFTimn1 +b55HRYPTmd+WjUXofKIIk70QDH1UkfoBHb3IX6908b8zafqU1Ne4soP7dvn9WjdanlO LmFHBTa5biGuy2aKlwYI1XFcEsOv8+nRtfmApnpm8UCXNUHpaHkQ8Pfm38bWSUgcf+Mo /mqFdAkDbaopz/4/+5RpW34qSNnPL+ocxM6+AY9jHyngOwO/1QagjBJkbhdljmoG701I cKciyz5HeBK5nrwmk9YmWf6IHgOpaZMnvjgM8Qe+NVZGsMyAsC5mpWTnZ1MZoWVZ2hYD ddTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=mTkLF+PwDd3TBreOh5/0kVyr3Dr/NOGFt34eUXHZS4g=; b=VowSOmLXZ6B8qvxHyvWA95RwMC+2IE1mk3NRDEr1lWvhqa0w6ViywyiFeGxsVsHetp i/gOWar+wWjZfQDQjMi+cWlby5jTW+asadpHj218rPdTFT3V9D9yFJDFYK9p/pe4Nxa5 vAozYPE1AlzaAl9NM+eNqVXwpVYxJCtHOyw+G3jeGVsIME4SPq1XcRrnuRITr1R8W7Bu WrmBulpkt4tVM5U4iP4OPBfueSxUnKfPxCPpthIkgvJU080Kzg7o/vQX+tElCr3tIIkY /Ip2TD16l7piMuzAYfHynTWPL5k6MooxlQUfw5MiErGLg3ggzW1MmfDn5aM79kOpJKmX 64lw== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1w4RykYgNzcIhPBwDdhf/V9thBhXB3CAWOiTNH18ZzXUw0ihru p4S3C9V+G3rXQ+GgpzSOHUGLsMLqOg/6qPx6Ge3SXg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfBuf85AvbkI9hsq210eCYqq/WhK+95y3NOLpXwb5c0M5cv5QY6qLMOpelCewHqntFV88huU/ayQBbviEw+zcY= X-Received: by 2002:a19:d819:: with SMTP id p25-v6mr2217944lfg.36.1530898931936; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:42:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:42:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180706172308.5ro5cjv3x7ujopsx@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> <79d3af9b-dd0c-833b-491f-a25a54a38559@cisco.com> <20180706172308.5ro5cjv3x7ujopsx@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:42:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Robert Wilton , Andy Bierman , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000684190570582f09" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 17:42:17 -0000 --0000000000000684190570582f09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Fri, Jul 06, 2018 at 05:38:28PM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote: > > > > My consideration was more: where should the NETCONF WG be spending its > > effort? > > > > So is there running code? Who is doing binary NETCONF and who is doing > binary RESTCONF? What are the _measured_ (not expected) savings with > binary NETCONF and binary RESTCONF? If all the running code moving > binary values is neither NETCONF nor RESTCONF, why would we spent > effort to extend NETCONF so that it can support multiple encodings? > Are people eager to migrate from what they use to this new solution? > > Working on binary (gNMI). Very interested in CBOR+SID as a better solution. The NETCONF WG is done wrt/ RESTCONF. CORE WG will standardize YANG to CBOR and SID. Seems like any use of CBOR in NETCONF, YANG Push, or RESTCONF is gated on the completion of these RFCs. > /js > > Andy > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --0000000000000684190570582f09 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 06, 2018 at 05:38:28PM +0100, Robert Wil= ton wrote:
>
> My consideration was more: where should the NETCONF WG be spending its=
> effort?
>

So is there running code? Who is doing binary NETCONF and who is doing
binary RESTCONF? What are the _measured_ (not expected) savings with
binary NETCONF and binary RESTCONF? If all the running code moving
binary values is neither NETCONF nor RESTCONF, why would we spent
effort to extend NETCONF so that it can support multiple encodings?
Are people eager to migrate from what they use to this new solution?



Working on binary (gNMI).
V= ery interested in CBOR+SID as a better solution.
The NETCONF WG i= s done wrt/ RESTCONF.
CORE WG will standardize YANG to CBOR and S= ID.
Seems like any use of CBOR in NETCONF, YANG Push, or RESTCONF=
is gated on the completion of these RFCs.


=C2=A0
/js



Andy
=C2=A0
--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
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--0000000000000684190570582f09-- From nobody Fri Jul 6 10:47:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8D3130E76 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:47:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9kj_vorN6vl3 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F688130E6C for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id w66HlBOs014431 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 19:47:12 +0200 Received: from [134.102.163.216] (134.102.163.216) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 19:47:06 +0200 To: References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> <79d3af9b-dd0c-833b-491f-a25a54a38559@cisco.com> <20180706172308.5ro5cjv3x7ujopsx@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <438643a4-8669-7e4b-fd8a-8ecabe9271e3@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 19:41:31 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180706172308.5ro5cjv3x7ujopsx@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.163.216] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 17:47:18 -0000 Hi all, I cannot speak for NETCONF or RESTCONF, but there is a CoMI Hackathon project in Montreal. The champion is Alexander Pelov. https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/102hackathon If you have the time, expertise or simply are curious, I am certain that every contribution or comment is welcome. Viele Grüße, Henk On 07/06/2018 07:23 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Fri, Jul 06, 2018 at 05:38:28PM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote: >> >> My consideration was more: where should the NETCONF WG be spending its >> effort? >> > > So is there running code? Who is doing binary NETCONF and who is doing > binary RESTCONF? What are the _measured_ (not expected) savings with > binary NETCONF and binary RESTCONF? If all the running code moving > binary values is neither NETCONF nor RESTCONF, why would we spent > effort to extend NETCONF so that it can support multiple encodings? > Are people eager to migrate from what they use to this new solution? > > /js > From nobody Fri Jul 6 13:39:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4CE9130DCD; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:39:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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Watsen To: Andy Bierman , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments Thread-Index: AQHUFHIFG5dr9N8THkC50o178ISxIaSAy4aAgAEgB4CAAHApgIAACu4AgAAMewCAAAVRAP//7oaA Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:39:38 +0000 Message-ID: <70874365-9182-413D-8FD5-927941DA7E08@juniper.net> References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> <79d3af9b-dd0c-833b-491f-a25a54a38559@cisco.com> <20180706172308.5ro5cjv3x7ujopsx@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BYAPR05MB4597; 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AQHTvAAnP4UPxNeFY0CSJ8tCCoPN1aPROUcQgATP1QCAHwQrAIADjkNQgA1teoD//750sIAJjRkA///cqgCAA11fAIAAqbKwgBOiSQCAARvxAIAIk/4AgACP9NCADaFDgIAAiRzAgAubxgD///ywEAJlO7OAACjJQxABysFmgAAIUZsAAI1lOQAABkzf0ACFw/GAAP59NtAAcDoxgAAGk67AACkcZQAABsxqIA== Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 23:13:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <17B884BF-0BB8-4B7C-BFBB-0AAFBEA857F6@juniper.net> <040a01d3be9f$09700490$1c500db0$@clemm.org> <2089023D-DA09-48E9-8F37-8FE459DC4F49@juniper.net> <1EC2E732-C524-4552-A3AD-27507239F763@juniper.net> <2b788c22f7ee4af889813b805348d69a@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <9E7F3A66-98B9-4528-882C-43AAD19F0AEC@juniper.net> <96615f0331cd455182901ddf3e6ece23@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <7F8F2AF4-28A5-4016-B727-10CAF6A093AF@juniper.net> <87fbe3cb907a473f816295c4545bd7fa@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <3b4744f4e2144ee18b9bfd5225360bf4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <01486F5E-CEE3-4BDD-9CD2-CA2754981000@juniper.net> <49943A03-D229-4084-9947-3065CE58A672@juniper.net> <470391DD-9A9E-47EC-9CEC-E8E6BABE3DDF@juniper.net> 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APt69E2OKCT9ZYLbdskvoRB5iLUgjSPLlZGXk0upJ+hPY4ENWXoipMGS x6RSSpcBlsgVBSBc66kyJGxmdcgf0U7XpjzV44FcIg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfAwlRTu4Dm0q3YXxLLGy37vrjaG0t7eDaj7axR8noNqUnuPDju0r0dcm7BYW/r4u4BFp6Aj0pwsMjMJTPrgTw= X-Received: by 2002:a19:b598:: with SMTP id g24-v6mr8891109lfk.129.1530920255279; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 16:37:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:37:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <70874365-9182-413D-8FD5-927941DA7E08@juniper.net> References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> <79d3af9b-dd0c-833b-491f-a25a54a38559@cisco.com> <20180706172308.5ro5cjv3x7ujopsx@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <70874365-9182-413D-8FD5-927941DA7E08@juniper.net> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:37:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000feedb105705d25a9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 23:37:40 -0000 --000000000000feedb105705d25a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > Working on binary (gNMI). > > > Very interested in CBOR+SID as a better solution. > > > The NETCONF WG is done wrt/ RESTCONF. > > > > Collections are still pending and, if RESTCONF is ever to supersede > NETCONF, there would need to be something like a commit-confirmed, or > perhaps this is already taken care of via /restconf/operations/ietf- > netconf:commit? > > > > BTW, I notice that nowhere in the nmda-restconf draft does it mention that > the auto-commit feature of the "unified" datastore is no active and that > clients must(?) now use /restconf/operations/* to do things. Is this an > oversight? > > > > > Why would the unified API be considered harmful to the Internet if NMDA datastores are also present? I see no reason to remove existing APIs just because new ones are added. With NMDA, a client has to edit candidate and then use POST /restconf/operations/commit to finish the edit, which requires 2 steps (or 6 if locking is used). With unified (RFC 8040) 1 step is needed and no locking is required. Andy > CORE WG will standardize YANG to CBOR and SID. > > > Seems like any use of CBOR in NETCONF, YANG Push, or RESTCONF > > > is gated on the completion of these RFCs. > > > > Regarding YANG-push, perhaps the NETCONF WG should consider a "coap-notif" > transport layer draft and, by extension, the CORE WG should consider > defining a "coap-client-server" draft. > > > > > > > Andy > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > > --000000000000feedb105705d25a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net= > wrote:

=C2=A0=

> Working on binary (gNMI).

> Very interested in CBOR+SID as a better solutio= n.

> The NETCONF WG is done wrt/ RESTCONF.=

=C2=A0

Collections are still pending and, if RESTCONF is ev= er to supersede NETCONF, there would need to be something like a commit-con= firmed, or perhaps this is already taken care of via /restconf/operations/i= etf-netconf:commit?

=C2=A0

BTW, I notice that nowhere in the nmda-restconf draf= t does it mention that the auto-commit feature of the "unified" d= atastore is no active and that clients must(?) now use /restconf/operations= /* to do things.=C2=A0 Is this an oversight?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0



Why would the unified API = be considered harmful to the Internet if NMDA datastores are also present?<= /div>
I see no reason to remove existing APIs just because new ones are= added.

With NMDA, a client has to edit candidate = and then use POST /restconf/operations/commit to finish the edit,
which requires 2 steps (or 6 if locking is used). With unified (RFC 8040) = 1 step is needed and no locking
is required.

=
Andy


> CORE WG will standardize YANG to CBOR and SID.<= u>

> Seems like any use of CBOR in NETCONF, YANG Pus= h, or RESTCONF

> is gated on the completion of these RFCs.

=C2=A0

Regarding YANG-push, perhaps the NETCONF WG should c= onsider a "coap-notif" transport layer draft and, by extension, t= he CORE WG should consider defining a "coap-client-server" draft.=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

> Andy

=C2=A0

Kent // contributor

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


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Sat, 7 Jul 2018 01:14:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TlfWuF2vji0d; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 01:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67EDD130E1C; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 01:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3E50622F8700; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:14:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:14:04 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Andy Bierman Cc: Kent Watsen , Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180707081404.qc4sonfgg4xqxqxb@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Andy Bierman , Kent Watsen , Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> <79d3af9b-dd0c-833b-491f-a25a54a38559@cisco.com> <20180706172308.5ro5cjv3x7ujopsx@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <70874365-9182-413D-8FD5-927941DA7E08@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 08:14:11 -0000 On Fri, Jul 06, 2018 at 04:37:34PM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > With NMDA, a client has to edit candidate and then use POST > /restconf/operations/commit to finish the edit, > which requires 2 steps (or 6 if locking is used). With unified (RFC 8040) 1 > step is needed and no locking > is required. > I do not think that NMDA requires that is used to perform edits. The datastore is still an optional capability. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Sat Jul 7 03:21:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD17C130E77; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 03:21:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4CdFfpL0rbC5; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 03:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767A8130E44; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 03:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [173.38.220.52]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4E6101AE028C; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 12:21:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:21:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180707.122153.1714489355358141054.mbj@tail-f.com> To: evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org Cc: kwatsen@juniper.net, internet-drafts@ietf.org, i-d-announce@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <6d9c2a1e9bc4438782c7c55adad2e012@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <153057165502.16157.15185842271768314132@ietfa.amsl.com> <0ACF98E6-F6CA-4B1F-82ED-ED80B1095781@juniper.net> <6d9c2a1e9bc4438782c7c55adad2e012@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 10:21:57 -0000 "Eric Voit \(evoit\)" wrote: > > From: Kent Watsen, July 5, 2018 12:23 PM > > > > Looking at the diffs I see: > > > > Note that each individual receiver is identifiable by > > its "name". This "name" plus the "transport" are used by a > > publisher implementation to a parameters needed to establish and > > maintain a network connection using that transport. > > > > I know that you worked this out with Martin, but I think that for > > configured > > subscriptions (and that's all we're talking about here, right?), a > > leafref to the > > actual transport instance (e.g., > > /restconf-server/call-home/restconf-client) > > would be more exact. > > Yes, just configured subscriptions. As some transports might not > want/need call home, adding the leafref should be defined in each > transport draft. Agree, and as you point out below, it doesn't have to be a leafref to something, it could also be done inline. This is entirely up to the transport mapping document. > So how about text which says: "Note that each individual receiver is > identifiable by its "name". Via this "name", publisher transport > parameters can be referenced in order to establish and maintain a ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Maybe "can be defined" or even "must be defined". > transport connection with a receiver. This transport specific > reference can come in several forms, including the augmentation of > leafrefs to an actual transport instance. Such augmentations would be ^^^^^^^^ must be? > defined in transport specific specifications building upon this > document." > > Eric > > > Kent > > > > > > > > ===== original message ===== > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF. > > > > Title : Customized Subscriptions to a Publisher's Event Streams > > Authors : Eric Voit > > Alexander Clemm > > Alberto Gonzalez Prieto > > Einar Nilsen-Nygaard > > Ambika Prasad Tripathy > > Filename : draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt > > Pages : 74 > > Date : 2018-07-02 > > > > Abstract: > > This document defines a YANG data model and associated mechanisms > > enabling subscriber-specific subscriptions to a publisher's event > > streams. Applying these elements allows a subscriber to request for > > and receive a continuous, custom feed of publisher generated > > information. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > From nobody Sat Jul 7 03:25:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7216F130E00 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 03:25:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uCak_ax2HjTD for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 03:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F4C130E77 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 03:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [173.38.220.52]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 588FF1AE028C; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 12:25:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:25:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180707.122539.1914166298230280820.mbj@tail-f.com> To: evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org Cc: andy@yumaworks.com, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <895bc6a027484796a0aa0dde4c144f8b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <895bc6a027484796a0aa0dde4c144f8b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 10:25:43 -0000 IkVyaWMgVm9pdCBcKGV2b2l0XCkiIDxldm9pdD00MGNpc2NvLmNvbUBkbWFyYy5pZXRmLm9yZz4g d3JvdGU6DQo+IEZyb206IEFuZHkgQmllcm1hbiwgSnVseSA1LCAyMDE4IDE6NDQgUE0NCj4gDQo+ IA0KPiBPbiBUaHUsIEp1bCA1LCAyMDE4IGF0IDEwOjMxIEFNLCBFcmljIFZvaXQgKGV2b2l0KQ0K PiA8ZXZvaXRAY2lzY28uY29tPG1haWx0bzpldm9pdEBjaXNjby5jb20+PiB3cm90ZToNCj4gSGkg QW5keSwNCj4gDQo+IEZyb206IEFuZHkgQmllcm1hbiwgSnVseSA1LCAyMDE4IDEyOjI2IFBNDQoN ClsuLi5dDQoNCj4gT2YgY291cnNlIGl0IGludGVyYWN0cyBwb29ybHkgd2l0aCBDYWxsSG9tZSwg YmVjYXVzZSB0aGUgcmVjZWl2ZXIgbGlzdA0KPiBpcyB1c2VkIElOU1RFQUQgb2YgQ2FsbEhvbWUs DQo+IG5vdCB3aXRoIENhbGxIb21lLiBDSCBpcyBmb3IgaW5pdGlhdGluZyBhIG5ldyBOQyBvciBS QyBzZXNzaW9uLCBzbyBhDQo+ICJzcGVjaWFsIiB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIGl0DQo+IHRoYXQgZG9lc24n 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<20180707.122539.1914166298230280820.mbj@tail-f.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 06:03:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Bjorklund Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007d4e9f0570686746" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 13:03:26 -0000 --0000000000007d4e9f0570686746 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > "Eric Voit \(evoit\)" wrote: > > From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 1:44 PM > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) > > > wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > > > From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 12:26 PM > > [...] > > > Of course it interacts poorly with CallHome, because the receiver list > > is used INSTEAD of CallHome, > > not with CallHome. CH is for initiating a new NC or RC session, so a > > "special" version of it > > that doesn't initiate a session would be a misuse. I guess the > > concept of SNMP Trap Receiver is > > not that clear to the NETCONF WG. > > > > Agree. > > I am confused. The intention is to use the "receiver" list AND call > home, right? IMO, the "receiver" list is a transport indenpendent > construct, and depending on the transport, it is augmented with > necessary parameters; in the case of NETCONF call-home will be used. > In the case of UDP some other parameters will be used. Etc. > > > I am not a fan of standards that are useless unless and until they are augmented with proprietary objects. CallHome does not really work here because once it is completed the NETCONF session is idle. The server is waiting for the client to send an . There is nothing standard that indicates the client will just wait and the server will start sending notifications. As a standard, this is unusable. It assumes the client developer will know the magic port numbers in advance in order to use each server (maybe port 40123 mean subscription 23 on server X and port 40023 means a regular CallHome session. Network managemen= t by ad-hoc port assignments seems fragile at best. /martin > > Andy > > > Current path allows augmentation of leafrefs to NETCONF > > CH once client-server completes. For our implementation, we will be > > augmenting in address and port now. This will be a vendor specific > > augmentation of course. > > > > Eric > > > > > > To make progress, I am ok with anything here but stalemate. And if > > only supporting dynamic subscriptions results in progress, that is ok > > with me. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > Configured subscriptions are less important for us. > > > > regards Balazs > > > > On 7/4/2018 9:40 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen > > > wrote: > > Since folks are leaning towards: > > > > dynamic: MUST > > configured: MAY > > > > We might also consider: > > > > dynamic: MUST > > configured: TBD > > > > Since the transport bindings (only needed for configured > > subscriptions) seem to depend on the client/server drafts, which > > aren't ready yet. > > > > > > The "receiver" list is rather proprietary since it has nothing in it > > about where or how to send packets, > > such as the destination socket, protocol, or message encoding. > > I don't see how configured subscriptions are useful as a standard > > without these details. > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > On 7/2/18, 6:50 PM, "Eric Voit (evoit)" > > > wrote: > > > > I am closing this question. All votes are for Option 2, which is > > reflected in the current draft. > > > > Eric > > > > From: Andy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM > > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen > > > wrote: > > > > To be clear, we=E2=80=99re discussing conformance requirements. Option= s are: > > > > 1: dynamic: MAY > > configured: MAY > > > > 2: dynamic: MUST > > configured: MAY > > > > > > > > I support this option (I think this is in the draft now). > > The configured subscriptions are likely less interoperable at this > > point because > > the protocol, transport, and encoding could be proprietary. There are > > also > > call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means plain call-home, > > magic port Y means subscription call-home). > > > > The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by the NETCONF or > > RESTCONF > > protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent across server > > implementations. > > > > There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in addition to > > edit-config. > > (As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not introduce > > parameters > > that are not already in the configured subscriptions.. > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > 3: dynamic: MAY > > configured: MUST > > > > 4: dynamic: MUST > > configured: MUST > > > > I don=E2=80=99t really care, as long as there is a good reason for it. > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > On Jun 24, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Henk Birkholz > > >> > > wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but maybe I am missing > > something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of netconf. > > > > In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "only Configured > > Subscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a strong yes wrt > > "Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional feature". > > > > Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should support > > resilient rendezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am aware of call > > home and this seems to be an excellent lightweight basis to build more > > complex solutions on that will benefit significantly from available > > dynamic subscription features. > > > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > > > Henk > > On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Voit (evoit)" > > url?u=3Dhttp-3A__40cisco.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D > 6F3EmGQsbc6Pw0-388AClIWIuFSd8lJgeV1wTTBcqy4&s=3D > fayskuGFUwaicBmdSM3jKsn4WctY15g1FRQuJrZcd7I&e=3D>@dmarc.ietf.org< > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp- > 3A__dmarc.ietf.org&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D > HWeJMn9vdaXx8aXKRl88y-y1kxIITqL4DeOrv2ykrX8&s=3Dg9Gr4Dqd_DvMfHmlF8pBRvori= _ > D1bd7UloKmwLO1YfE&e=3D>> > > wrote: > > Per below, Kent is interested to know if anyone wants to support a > > Publisher of just Configured Subscriptions. This would turn Dynamic > > Subscriptions into an optional feature. > > > > > > So does anyone want this? If a few people say yes, I will tweak the > > document. > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand that supporting dynamic subscriptions is > > currently a requirement. I am challenging that requirement. Why is > > it a requirement? Does it have to be a requirement? > > > > What if an IoT device only wants to support configured subscriptions > > and having code to support dynamic is wasting space? FWIW, I realize > > that not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it would be > > impossible to filling in gaps introduced by a reboot, but maybe that's > > a decision that the vendor can/should make for themselves? > > > > In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic subscriptions. So > > support for that older spec by definition makes dynamic subscriptions > > mandatory. Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-7923 as well as > > sections of other documents like RFC-7921, section 7.6 identify > > dynamic subscriptions as mandatory for a subscription service. So at > > least some use cases exist where such dynamic support is mandatory. > > > > Does it? I mean, this draft doesn't obsolete 5277, so it > > seems that server can optionally support one or the other or both, and > > when it supports this draft, can't it use a feature statement to limit > > dynamic subscriptions? > > > > Per below, I am ok to make dynamic subscription support > > optional (even if I don=E2=80=99t believe this is the right decision). = Part > > of the fix in the YANG Model description text would be to note that > > either dynamic or configured must be supported. > > > > With your IoT publisher use case above you are asserting that dynamic > > subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription only > > publishers =E2=80=93 i.e., there are a class of publishers which have b= een > > driven by use cases not considered by the documents referenced above. > > So who has documented the need configured subscription only > > publishers? I can=E2=80=99t point to such documentation (beyond IoT ca= se > > above). Is such a possibility worth slowing down this spec? In the > > end making the fix for this specification which you seem to want is > > itself really quite trivial: we can make both dynamic and configured > > subscriptions optional. The reason I have been resisting it is that > > this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers as yet > > another feature would have to be advertised as optional, (b) this > > waters down the mandatory capabilities support of the YANG module, and > > (c) we would need to include some a constraint that at least one of > > the two optional features needs to be supported. Also for (c) AFAIK, > > features don=E2=80=99t support the application of such constraints, so = it > > would have to be done in the feature descriptions themselves. > > > > I guess the text above is a long way of saying that if you assert the > > optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress the document, I > > will make the change. But the change will impose complexity costs > > which to me are hard to justify. > > > > why don't you ask the WG? "Should we support servers having > > only configured subscriptions (i.e. no dynamic subscriptions)?" FWIW, > > the ietf-*conf-server modules have features around both the "listen" > > and "call-home" subtrees. Heck, you might think "listen" would be > > mandatory (per RFC 6241), but still we support the possibility of a > > server only supporting call-home=E2=80=A6 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's a reasonable answer, but mind you that it was your IoT > > use-case originally. I'd like to get other opinions. Yes, trivial to > > add now, hard to add later, more flexibility for servers, almost no > > additional effort for clients. FWIW, I'm planning to add a feature > > statement for "periodic connections" in the > > ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts for similar reasons, that the > > server just might not want to support them, and I don't want the > > minimal bar to be higher than needed. > > > > Lets go with whatever opinions people have. I will adapt > > accordingly. Do you want me to start an independent thread? > > > > yes, please ask the WG > > > > > > > > -- > > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ > mailman_listinfo_netconf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D > HWeJMn9vdaXx8aXKRl88y-y1kxIITqL4DeOrv2ykrX8&s=3DjWWYWO3k32- > 6mUco2IlCaCSzMXOuQzyzGamyAcIz1tE&e=3D> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Netconf mailing list > > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > -- > > > > Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. > > > > Senior Specialist > > > > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: > > Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com > > > > > --0000000000007d4e9f0570686746 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Martin Bjorklund <= mbj@tail-f.com><= /span> wrote:
"Eric Voit \(evoit\)&q= uot; <evoit=3D40cisco.com@= dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 1:44 PM
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Eric Voit (evoit)
> <evoit@cisco.com<mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com">evoit@cisco.com>> wrote: > Hi Andy,
>
> From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 12:26 PM

[...]

> Of course it interacts poorly with CallHome, because the receiver list=
> is used INSTEAD of CallHome,
> not with CallHome. CH is for initiating a new NC or RC session, so a > "special" version of it
> that doesn't initiate a session would be a misuse.=C2=A0 I guess t= he
> concept of SNMP Trap Receiver is
> not that clear to the NETCONF WG.
>
> <Eric> Agree.

I am confused.=C2=A0 The intention is to use the "receiver" list = AND call
home, right?=C2=A0 =C2=A0IMO, the "receiver" list is a transport = indenpendent
construct, and depending on the transport, it is augmented with
necessary parameters; in the case of NETCONF call-home will be used.
In the case of UDP some other parameters will be used.=C2=A0 Etc.



I am not a fan of standards that are u= seless unless and until
they are augmented with proprietary objec= ts.

CallHome does not really work here because onc= e it is completed
the NETCONF session is idle. The server is wait= ing for
the client to send an <rpc-request>. =C2=A0 There i= s nothing standard that indicates
the client will just wait and t= he server will start sending notifications.

As a s= tandard, this is unusable.
It assumes the client developer will k= now the magic port numbers in advance
in order to use each server= (maybe port 40123 mean subscription 23 on
server X and port 4002= 3 means a regular CallHome session. Network management
by ad-hoc = port assignments seems fragile at best.


=

/martin



Andy
=C2=A0

> Current path allows augmentation of leafrefs to NETCONF
> CH once client-server completes.=C2=A0 For our implementation, we will= be
> augmenting in address and port now.=C2=A0 This will be a vendor specif= ic
> augmentation of course.
>
> Eric
>
>
> To make progress, I am ok with anything here but stalemate.=C2=A0 And = if
> only supporting dynamic subscriptions results in progress, that is ok<= br> > with me.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
> Configured subscriptions are less important for us.
>
> regards Balazs
>
> On 7/4/2018 9:40 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen
> <kwatsen@juniper.net<= mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net&= gt;> wrote:
> Since folks are leaning towards:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dynamic: MUST
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MAY
>
> We might also consider:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dynamic: MUST
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: TBD
>
> Since the transport bindings (only needed for configured
> subscriptions) seem to depend on the client/server drafts, which
> aren't ready yet.
>
>
> The "receiver" list is rather proprietary since it has nothi= ng in it
> about where or how to send packets,
> such as the destination socket, protocol, or message encoding.
> I don't see how configured subscriptions are useful as a standard<= br> > without these details.
>
>
> Kent // contributor
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> On 7/2/18, 6:50 PM, "Eric Voit (evoit)"
> <evoit@cisco.com<mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com">evoit@cisco.com>> wrote: >
> I am closing this question.=C2=A0 All votes are for Option 2, which is=
> reflected in the current draft.
>
> Eric
>
> From: Andy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen
> <kwatsen@juniper.net<= mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net&= gt;> wrote:
>
> To be clear, we=E2=80=99re discussing conformance requirements.=C2=A0 = Options are:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1: dynamic: MAY
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MAY
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2: dynamic: MUST
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured: MAY
>
>
>
> I support this option (I think this is in the draft now).
> The configured subscriptions are likely less interoperable at this
> point because
> the protocol, transport, and encoding could be proprietary.=C2=A0 Ther= e are
> also
> call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means plain call-home,
> magic port Y means subscription call-home).
>
> The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by the NETCONF or > RESTCONF
> protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent across server
> implementations.
>
> There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in addition to
> edit-config.
> (As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not introduce
> parameters
> that are not already in the configured subscriptions..
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3: dynamic: MAY
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured: MUST
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 4: dynamic: MUST
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured: MUST
>
> I don=E2=80=99t really care, as long as there is a good reason for it.=
>
> Kent // contributor
>
>
> On Jun 24, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Henk Birkholz
> <henk.birkholz@s= it.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but maybe I am = missing
> something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of netconf. >
> In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "only Configur= ed
> Subscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a strong yes= wrt
> "Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional feature&qu= ot;.
>
> Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should support
> resilient rendezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am aware of call=
> home and this seems to be an excellent lightweight basis to build more=
> complex solutions on that will benefit significantly from available > dynamic subscription features.
>
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>
> Henk
> On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Voit (evoit)" > <evoit=3D40cisco.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__40cisco.= com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3v= oDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&am= p;m=3D6F3EmGQsbc6Pw0-388AClIWIuFSd8lJgeV1wTTBcqy4&s=3DfayskuGFUwaicBmdSM3jKsn4WctY15g1FRQuJrZcd7I&e=3D>@dmarc.ietf= .org<https://= urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__dmarc.ietf.org&= d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&am= p;r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3DHW= eJMn9vdaXx8aXKRl88y-y1kxIITqL4DeOrv2ykrX8&s=3Dg9Gr4Dqd_DvMfHm= lF8pBRvori_D1bd7UloKmwLO1YfE&e=3D>>
> wrote:
> Per below, Kent is interested to know if anyone wants to support a
> Publisher of just Configured Subscriptions.=C2=A0 This would turn Dyna= mic
> Subscriptions into an optional feature.
>
>
> So does anyone want this?=C2=A0 If a few people say yes, I will tweak = the
> document.
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <Kent8> I understand that supporting dynamic subscriptions is > currently a requirement.=C2=A0 I am challenging that requirement.=C2= =A0 Why is
> it a requirement?=C2=A0 Does it have to be a requirement?
>
> What if an IoT device only wants to support configured subscriptions > and having code to support dynamic is wasting space?=C2=A0 FWIW, I rea= lize
> that not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it would be<= br> > impossible to filling in gaps introduced by a reboot, but maybe that&#= 39;s
> a decision that the vendor can/should make for themselves?
>
> <Eric9> In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic subscriptions.=C2= =A0 So
> support for that older spec by definition makes dynamic subscriptions<= br> > mandatory.=C2=A0 Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-7923 as we= ll as
> sections of other documents like RFC-7921, section 7.6 identify
> dynamic subscriptions as mandatory for a subscription service.=C2=A0 S= o at
> least some use cases exist where such dynamic support is mandatory. >
> <Kent9> Does it?=C2=A0 I mean, this draft doesn't obsolete 5= 277, so it
> seems that server can optionally support one or the other or both, and=
> when it supports this draft, can't it use a feature statement to l= imit
> dynamic subscriptions?
>
> <Eric10> Per below, I am ok to make dynamic subscription support=
> optional (even if I don=E2=80=99t believe this is the right decision).= =C2=A0 Part
> of the fix in the YANG Model description text would be to note that > either dynamic or configured must be supported.
>
> With your IoT publisher use case above you are asserting that dynamic<= br> > subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription only
> publishers =E2=80=93 i.e., there are a class of publishers which have = been
> driven by use cases not considered by the documents referenced above.<= br> > So who has documented the need configured subscription only
> publishers?=C2=A0 I can=E2=80=99t point to such documentation (beyond = IoT case
> above).=C2=A0 Is such a possibility worth slowing down this spec?=C2= =A0 In the
> end making the fix for this specification which you seem to want is > itself really quite trivial: we can make both dynamic and configured > subscriptions optional.=C2=A0 The reason I have been resisting it is t= hat
> this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers as yet
> another feature would have to be advertised as optional, (b) this
> waters down the mandatory capabilities support of the YANG module, and=
> (c) we would need to include some a constraint that at least one of > the two optional features needs to be supported.=C2=A0 Also for (c) AF= AIK,
> features don=E2=80=99t support the application of such constraints, so= it
> would have to be done in the feature descriptions themselves.
>
> I guess the text above is a long way of saying that if you assert the<= br> > optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress the document, I=
> will make the change.=C2=A0 But the change will impose complexity cost= s
> which to me are hard to justify.
>
> <Kent10> why don't you ask the WG?=C2=A0 "Should we sup= port servers having
> only configured subscriptions (i.e. no dynamic subscriptions)?"= =C2=A0 FWIW,
> the ietf-*conf-server modules have features around both the "list= en"
> and "call-home" subtrees.=C2=A0 Heck, you might think "= listen" would be
> mandatory (per RFC 6241), but still we support the possibility of a > server only supporting call-home=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <Kent9> that's a reasonable answer, but mind you that it was= your IoT
> use-case originally.=C2=A0 I'd like to get other opinions.=C2=A0 Y= es, trivial to
> add now, hard to add later, more flexibility for servers, almost no > additional effort for clients.=C2=A0 FWIW, I'm planning to add a f= eature
> statement for "periodic connections" in the
> ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts for similar reasons, tha= t the
> server just might not want to support them, and I don't want the > minimal bar to be higher than needed.
>
> <Eric10> Lets go with whatever opinions people have.=C2=A0 I wil= l adapt
> accordingly.=C2=A0 Do you want me to start an independent thread?
>
> <Kent10> yes, please ask the WG
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org<mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www= .ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_netconf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHA= kYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9E= PoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3DHWeJMn9vdaXx8aXKRl88y-y= 1kxIITqL4DeOrv2ykrX8&s=3DjWWYWO3k32-6mUco2IlCaCSzMXOuQzyzGamy= AcIz1tE&e=3D>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Netconf mailing list
>
> Netconf@ietf.org<mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf=
>
>
> --
>
> Balazs Lengyel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
>
> Senior Specialist
>
> Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email:
> Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson= .com<mailto:Bala= zs.Lengyel@ericsson.com>
>
>

--0000000000007d4e9f0570686746-- From nobody Sat Jul 7 07:17:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7641D130E58; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 07:17:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a8QHCbfewJHZ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 07:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A71E130DE4; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 07:17:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4013; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530973071; x=1532182671; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=9Upm2kbv5+wRiduXhEecwZelvyVNBXLVojHWIkU2XZI=; b=izIgNxVFWWm0LEPeAXPsgO/l2a47ZmWMIrn+nthy+MnOnk2SEp2Lk26c sQXV3xbtAfLtOxtRFR78+UFWHLrVm39VcmuMYFMmNGzrsvhjCu/S1bTj3 Z+zGQmGdkhGhk4TfFEsfdts4lVWbJCTBUfORV1YE/QImMaUsL8/TfEbAt w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DUAACgykBb/4UNJK1bGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYMfKmJ/KAqLdIw0ggeVMoF6CxgLhANGAoItITQYAQIBAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQJtHAyFNgEBAQECAQEBODQJAgULAgEIDgcDHhAnCyUCBA4FCIJNTIF3CA+?= =?us-ascii?q?rVIhNgTqIboFWP4QegxgBAQIBgUeFbAKMUox9CQKGBoJkhjCBSkODS4gNkWk?= =?us-ascii?q?CERMBgSQdOIFScBUaIYJpCYsLhT5vAY8DgRoBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,320,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="420568879" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 07 Jul 2018 14:17:49 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (xch-rtp-013.cisco.com [64.101.220.153]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w67EHn4I020506 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 7 Jul 2018 14:17:49 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:17:48 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:17:48 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Martin Bjorklund CC: "kwatsen@juniper.net" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt Thread-Index: AQHUElbkwm4GAj3ILUa2Fk8DhdRrv6SAkQKAgABD9gCAAwIOgP///d3w Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 14:17:48 +0000 Message-ID: <7946ccd3ec40435b91e31362a526f457@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <153057165502.16157.15185842271768314132@ietfa.amsl.com> <0ACF98E6-F6CA-4B1F-82ED-ED80B1095781@juniper.net> <6d9c2a1e9bc4438782c7c55adad2e012@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180707.122153.1714489355358141054.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: <20180707.122153.1714489355358141054.mbj@tail-f.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.228] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:17:54 -0000 Hi Martin, > From: Martin Bjorklund, July 7, 2018 6:22 AM >=20 > "Eric Voit \(evoit\)" wrote: > > > From: Kent Watsen, July 5, 2018 12:23 PM > > > > > > Looking at the diffs I see: > > > > > > Note that each individual receiver is identifiable by > > > its "name". This "name" plus the "transport" are used by a > > > publisher implementation to a parameters needed to establish and > > > maintain a network connection using that transport. > > > > > > I know that you worked this out with Martin, but I think that for > > > configured subscriptions (and that's all we're talking about here, > > > right?), a leafref to the actual transport instance (e.g., > > > /restconf-server/call-home/restconf-client) > > > would be more exact. > > > > Yes, just configured subscriptions. As some transports might not > > want/need call home, adding the leafref should be defined in each > > transport draft. >=20 > Agree, and as you point out below, it doesn't have to be a leafref to > something, it could also be done inline. This is entirely up to the tran= sport > mapping document. >=20 > > So how about text which says: "Note that each individual receiver is > > identifiable by its "name". Via this "name", publisher transport > > parameters can be referenced in order to establish and maintain a > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >=20 > Maybe "can be defined" or even "must be defined". Now: "must be defined" =20 > > transport connection with a receiver. This transport specific > > reference can come in several forms, including the augmentation of > > leafrefs to an actual transport instance. Such augmentations would be > ^^^^^^^^ >=20 > must be? Now: "must be" Eric > > defined in transport specific specifications building upon this > > document." >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > Eric > > > > > Kent > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D original message =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > > > directories. > > > This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF= . > > > > > > Title : Customized Subscriptions to a Publisher's Event Strea= ms > > > Authors : Eric Voit > > > Alexander Clemm > > > Alberto Gonzalez Prieto > > > Einar Nilsen-Nygaard > > > Ambika Prasad Tripathy > > > Filename : draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt > > > Pages : 74 > > > Date : 2018-07-02 > > > > > > Abstract: > > > This document defines a YANG data model and associated mechanisms > > > enabling subscriber-specific subscriptions to a publisher's event > > > streams. Applying these elements allows a subscriber to request f= or > > > and receive a continuous, custom feed of publisher generated > > > information. > > > > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > > > > > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > > > > > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > > > tools.ietf.org. > > > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Netconf mailing list > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > From nobody Sat Jul 7 07:18:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D735D130DE4 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 07:17:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id esFblViRVwie for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 07:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7838C130E4F for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 07:17:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=53532; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530973071; x=1532182671; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=H6q50O35QL06cyo95xkJAi4Tzu9FHL8yi385C3zFCTg=; b=MKd02lMwbP/6XPAylUrEQq2U1Hrjj/ih/UmBaH6oOACdsRhQZfZOP3nj tfy3mHeHxNJGPw6RsNLIfQUpi5eY6M81pBNKiUJgVYp2JBxTPX0Yzndkr Bwp9h27y722A8c1IVSxlci3fvBvKX2JW6uoBbP+sAb6x83fENh1mfgp+6 o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ArAgAgy0Bb/5RdJa1RChkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGCU3ZifygKg3CUOIIHlTIUgWYLGAEJhARGAheCFiE1FwE?= =?us-ascii?q?CAQECAQECbRwMhTYBAQEBAgEBARgJCkELBQsCAQYCFQMNEwEGAwICAiULFBE?= =?us-ascii?q?CBAENBQgTgwaBG1wID41xm0iCHIhNgTqIboFWP4EPgmEugxgBAQIYgRMBBwU?= =?us-ascii?q?FAgEIHQcJHwiCQ4JVAplPCQKGBoJkhjCBSkODS4gNijiHMQIREwGBJA0RATZ?= =?us-ascii?q?hcXAVO4JpCYV3hRSFPQFvAQGNVYEtgRoBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,320,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="139412649" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 07 Jul 2018 14:17:49 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (xch-rtp-012.cisco.com [64.101.220.152]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w67EHmRT018438 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 7 Jul 2018 14:17:49 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (64.101.220.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:17:48 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:17:48 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Andy Bierman , Martin Bjorklund CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? Thread-Index: AQHUFdzoQxUMgGR6+EyEsUfGkX4eo6SD/RKA//++GHA= Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 14:17:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <895bc6a027484796a0aa0dde4c144f8b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180707.122539.1914166298230280820.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.228] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ca85f986fdb449b1bcadb757b85941beXCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:17:56 -0000 --_000_ca85f986fdb449b1bcadb757b85941beXCHRTP013ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbTogQW5keSBCaWVybWFuLCBKdWx5IDcsIDIwMTggOTowMyBBTQ0KDQpPbiBTYXQsIEp1bCA3 LCAyMDE4IGF0IDM6MjUgQU0sIE1hcnRpbiBCam9ya2x1bmQgPG1iakB0YWlsLWYuY29tPG1haWx0 bzptYmpAdGFpbC1mLmNvbT4+IHdyb3RlOg0KIkVyaWMgVm9pdCBcKGV2b2l0XCkiIDxldm9pdD00 MGNpc2NvLmNvbUBkbWFyYy5pZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86NDBjaXNjby5jb21AZG1hcmMuaWV0Zi5v cmc+PiB3cm90ZToNCj4gRnJvbTogQW5keSBCaWVybWFuLCBKdWx5IDUsIDIwMTggMTo0NCBQTQ0K Pg0KPg0KPiBPbiBUaHUsIEp1bCA1LCAyMDE4IGF0IDEwOjMxIEFNLCBFcmljIFZvaXQgKGV2b2l0 KQ0KPiA8ZXZvaXRAY2lzY28uY29tPG1haWx0bzpldm9pdEBjaXNjby5jb20+PG1haWx0bzpldm9p dEBjaXNjby5jb208bWFpbHRvOmV2b2l0QGNpc2NvLmNvbT4+PiB3cm90ZToNCj4gSGkgQW5keSwN 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ZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_ca85f986fdb449b1bcadb757b85941beXCHRTP013ciscocom_-- From nobody Sat Jul 7 07:27:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E08B130E64 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 07:27:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gYFQcQJex2SP for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 07:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62953130DCE for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 07:27:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14738; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1530973637; x=1532183237; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=4bv5HrGjwH0a7aBH848/dKzYWF1kCTWtqy66+Lc8d34=; b=I7u0iWNcHHWPEiU9wDZ4xhKI45a5/wbp+2QtKAlUoByioV4AiiO6eaKZ pyjfyxyc3S9xCg/tLX1D1mhHDc6s5xoZcd4wtIua4VMCwpymrUgYo1NKa 01i0cd/66pu9vujlFkT0+Km4icSwMRmPp+Y2XjSaJaJLj93fVQnhjysyY k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DSBQChzEBb/5hdJa1RAQkZAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBBwEBAQEBgx8qYn8oCoNwlDiCB4M4kXoUgWYLI4QDRgIXghYhNhY?= =?us-ascii?q?BAgEBAgEBAm0cDIU2AQEBAQIBIxFDAgULAgEIDgcFAgkWBwICAjAVEAIEDg2?= 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(evoit)" To: Kent Watsen CC: Henk Birkholz , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) Thread-Index: AQHUC7Bk2NEfjxedcUmM/mAqvL2qMaRxMGsAgABNWwCACxi18IABmkaAgAGYmoD//77DcIABoTAA///VGaCAAGgzgP//2i4QADu8ngAABr8+cA== Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 14:27:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4df95162a0a8464b884c4e88268df8ca@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <858F63BA-37A2-4925-B340-4DD79CEBEEF9@juniper.net> <8c68a8ce85d946579f325e311a8e67a9@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <2707704d84354cb784e0d2ae001bc599@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <43507a18831540f195c9c2179c781155@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <796FAB55-5BFE-41A2-A447-6E65A552D76C@juniper.net> <04c12295eafa4ae38d240817aefb792f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.228] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? (was RE: LC on subscribed-notifications-10) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:27:20 -0000 PiBGcm9tOiBLZW50IFdhdHNlbiwgSnVseSA2LCAyMDE4IDY6MzQgUE0NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiA+PiAg IFNlY3Rpb24gMzogeWVzLCBpdCBzZWVtcyBsaWtlIHRoaXMgbmVlZHMgdG8gYmUgc2FpZC4gIFRo b3VnaCBJDQo+ID4+ICAgdGhpbmsgYSBjYXNlIGlzIG1pc3Npbmc6IGVzdGFibGlzaC1zdWJzY3Jp cHRpb24gUlBDIGNhbm5vdCBiZQ0KPiA+PiAgIHNlbnQgb24gYSBzZXNzaW9uIG9uIHdoaWNoIGNy ZWF0ZS1zdWJzY3JpcHRpb24gaXMgYWN0aXZlLCByaWdodD8NCj4gPg0KPiA+IFRvIG1ha2UgaXQg cGVyZmVjdGx5IGNsZWFyLCBJIHVwZGF0ZWQgYnVsbGV0ICMyIHRvOg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gSXQgaXMg YSBwcm9oaWJpdGVkIHRvIGFjY2VwdCBhbiBlc3RhYmxpc2gtc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uIHJlcXVlc3Qs IG9yDQo+ID4gc2VuZCBlaXRoZXIgdXBkYXRlcyBvciBzdGF0ZSBjaGFuZ2Ugbm90aWZpY2F0aW9u cyBmb3IgYSBjb25maWd1cmVkDQo+ID4gc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uIG9uIGEgTkVUQ09ORiBzZXNzaW9u 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b=PYlhl3hvCWU/JKFsABvS3qzhueQQQQd5C+53sCSpylVNcSTaD6lzhTqqk9aEiUhOnh RIYXRVXkdyB/JN8uj+2dX/8bfd0yqsx1ltWBcKPrp1EY6Vxf2ThOHtzGhWj8hwsxfXZT ZnqYN7jv0R+UTp5VmevnlSbPSyHR9U+e+P+X8kud3y2e9eZy1c5zmfAZ0KFafSfyYwZL 3XnxGe9I7ZuU1ReRgDD6f3di8O1ptc1W9Zo9u8a6pPI4FrUe4DNkb3OcVjo8xSeLv611 U517r8sdSztsSzoz9vQ5eU5cVnZLZMxi9bKP8m97w9l4H8jgvZI/Tk6vZT0uaUj13/R+ z0NA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E13D8NEFhCcXmMRtuNe5GKXil4aDTatyM4qJhZc1xaAw/R1x5Dr UfdrFDA9VStqoytP+Gx3TaBqhUa2koxWIAWVJgr2JQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfdbKETJLmpMEnI++uOdADGWGY6XAvGyGWGXTdjF4j9wI0yUtSe8B62oSLQ8enN7CrFK0qOEPqk8TIvZznEDF8= X-Received: by 2002:a19:d819:: with SMTP id p25-v6mr4153888lfg.36.1530974044359; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 07:34:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 07:34:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <895bc6a027484796a0aa0dde4c144f8b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180707.122539.1914166298230280820.mbj@tail-f.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 07:34:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Martin Bjorklund , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000132435057069acab" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:34:12 -0000 --000000000000132435057069acab Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 7:17 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > *From:* Andy Bierman, July 7, 2018 9:03 AM > > On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > "Eric Voit \(evoit\)" wrote: > > From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 1:44 PM > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) > > > wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > > > From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 12:26 PM > > [...] > > > Of course it interacts poorly with CallHome, because the receiver list > > is used INSTEAD of CallHome, > > not with CallHome. CH is for initiating a new NC or RC session, so a > > "special" version of it > > that doesn't initiate a session would be a misuse. I guess the > > concept of SNMP Trap Receiver is > > not that clear to the NETCONF WG. > > > > Agree. > > I am confused. The intention is to use the "receiver" list AND call > home, right? IMO, the "receiver" list is a transport indenpendent > construct, and depending on the transport, it is augmented with > necessary parameters; in the case of NETCONF call-home will be used. > In the case of UDP some other parameters will be used. Etc. > > > > I am not a fan of standards that are useless unless and until > > they are augmented with proprietary objects. > > > > I wouldn=E2=80=99t say proprietary objects. From the perspective= of just > the subscribed-notifications draft, they would be transport specific > objects. > > > IMO there needs to be at least 1 complete standard solution that servers must support. I would prefer that configured subscriptions be held back until a fully-baked standard solution is ready. > CallHome does not really work here because once it is completed > > the NETCONF session is idle. The server is waiting for > > the client to send an . > > There is nothing standard that indicates > > the client will just wait and the server will start sending notifications= . > > > > My reading of RFC 8071 section 3 is that it doesn=E2=80=99t specif= y client > behavior once the transport session is up. Just that NETCONF can start. A= nd > you are correct, after is starts, it is idle. > > > I don't think this fits the intent of CallHome. IMO a new protocol is needed that is dedicated to the binary transport of notification subscription data. > To make that work with configured subscriptions, what the text says is: > > > > =E2=80=9Cthe first configured subscription to a specific receiver MUST es= tablish a > NETCONF transport session via NETCONF call home [RFC8071], section 4.1. > This transport session MUST then be used by additional configured > subscriptions targeting that the same receiver.=E2=80=9D > > > > As a result, it should be possible to steer the Call Home transport > session to a NETCONF port on the receiver capable of awaiting inbound > notifications. (I.e., something which could act in a role similar to SNM= P > trap receiver.) To cover this, I have tweaked the to: > > > > =E2=80=9Cthe first configured subscription to a specific receiver MUST es= tablish a > NETCONF transport session via NETCONF call home [RFC8071], section 4.1. > The receiver=E2=80=99s NETCONF client MUST be capable of awaiting the pub= lisher=E2=80=99s > sending of unsolicited notification messages. This transport session MUS= T > also then be used by additional configured subscriptions targeting that t= he > same receiver call home connection.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > As a standard, this is unusable. > > It assumes the client developer will know the magic port numbers in advan= ce > > in order to use each server (maybe port 40123 mean subscription 23 on > > server X and port 40023 means a regular CallHome session. Network > management > > by ad-hoc port assignments seems fragile at best. > > > > I believe it is unnecessary to have a configured subscription per > port. Multiple subscriptions should be able to use the same transport > session. A different call home is only needed if there is an explicit > reason to separate the sessions. > OK -- it should be specified in the TBD protocol mentioned above > > Eric > > > Andy > > > > > /martin > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > Current path allows augmentation of leafrefs to NETCONF > > CH once client-server completes. For our implementation, we will be > > augmenting in address and port now. This will be a vendor specific > > augmentation of course. > > > > Eric > > > > > > To make progress, I am ok with anything here but stalemate. And if > > only supporting dynamic subscriptions results in progress, that is ok > > with me. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > Configured subscriptions are less important for us. > > > > regards Balazs > > > > On 7/4/2018 9:40 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen > > > wrote: > > Since folks are leaning towards: > > > > dynamic: MUST > > configured: MAY > > > > We might also consider: > > > > dynamic: MUST > > configured: TBD > > > > Since the transport bindings (only needed for configured > > subscriptions) seem to depend on the client/server drafts, which > > aren't ready yet. > > > > > > The "receiver" list is rather proprietary since it has nothing in it > > about where or how to send packets, > > such as the destination socket, protocol, or message encoding. > > I don't see how configured subscriptions are useful as a standard > > without these details. > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > On 7/2/18, 6:50 PM, "Eric Voit (evoit)" > > > wrote: > > > > I am closing this question. All votes are for Option 2, which is > > reflected in the current draft. > > > > Eric > > > > From: Andy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM > > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen > > > wrote: > > > > To be clear, we=E2=80=99re discussing conformance requirements. Option= s are: > > > > 1: dynamic: MAY > > configured: MAY > > > > 2: dynamic: MUST > > configured: MAY > > > > > > > > I support this option (I think this is in the draft now). > > The configured subscriptions are likely less interoperable at this > > point because > > the protocol, transport, and encoding could be proprietary. There are > > also > > call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means plain call-home, > > magic port Y means subscription call-home). > > > > The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by the NETCONF or > > RESTCONF > > protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent across server > > implementations. > > > > There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in addition to > > edit-config. > > (As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not introduce > > parameters > > that are not already in the configured subscriptions.. > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > 3: dynamic: MAY > > configured: MUST > > > > 4: dynamic: MUST > > configured: MUST > > > > I don=E2=80=99t really care, as long as there is a good reason for it. > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > On Jun 24, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Henk Birkholz > > >> > > wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but maybe I am missing > > something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of netconf. > > > > In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "only Configured > > Subscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a strong yes wrt > > "Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional feature". > > > > Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should support > > resilient rendezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am aware of call > > home and this seems to be an excellent lightweight basis to build more > > complex solutions on that will benefit significantly from available > > dynamic subscription features. > > > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > > > Henk > > On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Voit (evoit)" > > url?u=3Dhttp-3A__40cisco.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D > 6F3EmGQsbc6Pw0-388AClIWIuFSd8lJgeV1wTTBcqy4&s=3D > fayskuGFUwaicBmdSM3jKsn4WctY15g1FRQuJrZcd7I&e=3D>@dmarc.ietf..org > 3A__dmarc.ietf.org&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D > HWeJMn9vdaXx8aXKRl88y-y1kxIITqL4DeOrv2ykrX8&s=3Dg9Gr4Dqd_DvMfHmlF8pBRvori= _ > D1bd7UloKmwLO1YfE&e=3D>> > > wrote: > > Per below, Kent is interested to know if anyone wants to support a > > Publisher of just Configured Subscriptions. This would turn Dynamic > > Subscriptions into an optional feature. > > > > > > So does anyone want this? If a few people say yes, I will tweak the > > document. > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand that supporting dynamic subscriptions is > > currently a requirement. I am challenging that requirement. Why is > > it a requirement? Does it have to be a requirement? > > > > What if an IoT device only wants to support configured subscriptions > > and having code to support dynamic is wasting space? FWIW, I realize > > that not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it would be > > impossible to filling in gaps introduced by a reboot, but maybe that's > > a decision that the vendor can/should make for themselves? > > > > In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic subscriptions. So > > support for that older spec by definition makes dynamic subscriptions > > mandatory. Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-7923 as well as > > sections of other documents like RFC-7921, section 7.6 identify > > dynamic subscriptions as mandatory for a subscription service. So at > > least some use cases exist where such dynamic support is mandatory. > > > > Does it? I mean, this draft doesn't obsolete 5277, so it > > seems that server can optionally support one or the other or both, and > > when it supports this draft, can't it use a feature statement to limit > > dynamic subscriptions? > > > > Per below, I am ok to make dynamic subscription support > > optional (even if I don=E2=80=99t believe this is the right decision). = Part > > of the fix in the YANG Model description text would be to note that > > either dynamic or configured must be supported. > > > > With your IoT publisher use case above you are asserting that dynamic > > subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription only > > publishers =E2=80=93 i.e., there are a class of publishers which have b= een > > driven by use cases not considered by the documents referenced above. > > So who has documented the need configured subscription only > > publishers? I can=E2=80=99t point to such documentation (beyond IoT ca= se > > above). Is such a possibility worth slowing down this spec? In the > > end making the fix for this specification which you seem to want is > > itself really quite trivial: we can make both dynamic and configured > > subscriptions optional. The reason I have been resisting it is that > > this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers as yet > > another feature would have to be advertised as optional, (b) this > > waters down the mandatory capabilities support of the YANG module, and > > (c) we would need to include some a constraint that at least one of > > the two optional features needs to be supported. Also for (c) AFAIK, > > features don=E2=80=99t support the application of such constraints, so = it > > would have to be done in the feature descriptions themselves. > > > > I guess the text above is a long way of saying that if you assert the > > optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress the document, I > > will make the change. But the change will impose complexity costs > > which to me are hard to justify. > > > > why don't you ask the WG? "Should we support servers having > > only configured subscriptions (i.e. no dynamic subscriptions)?" FWIW, > > the ietf-*conf-server modules have features around both the "listen" > > and "call-home" subtrees. Heck, you might think "listen" would be > > mandatory (per RFC 6241), but still we support the possibility of a > > server only supporting call-home=E2=80=A6 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's a reasonable answer, but mind you that it was your IoT > > use-case originally. I'd like to get other opinions. Yes, trivial to > > add now, hard to add later, more flexibility for servers, almost no > > additional effort for clients. FWIW, I'm planning to add a feature > > statement for "periodic connections" in the > > ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts for similar reasons, that the > > server just might not want to support them, and I don't want the > > minimal bar to be higher than needed. > > > > Lets go with whatever opinions people have. I will adapt > > accordingly. Do you want me to start an independent thread? > > > > yes, please ask the WG > > > > > > > > -- > > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www..ietf.org_ > mailman_listinfo_netconf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D > HWeJMn9vdaXx8aXKRl88y-y1kxIITqL4DeOrv2ykrX8&s=3DjWWYWO3k32- > 6mUco2IlCaCSzMXOuQzyzGamyAcIz1tE&e=3D > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Netconf mailing list > > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > -- > > > > Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. > > > > Senior Specialist > > > > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: > > Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson..com Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com> > > > > > > > --000000000000132435057069acab Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 7:17 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) <= ;evoit@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:

From: Andy Bierman, July 7, 2018 9:0= 3 AM

On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Martin Bjorklund <= ;mbj@tail-f.com>= wrote:

"Eric Voit \(evo= it\)" <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 1:44 PM
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Eric Voit (evoit)
> <evoit@cisco.c= om<mailto:evoit= @cisco.com>> wrote:
> Hi Andy,
>
> From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 12:26 PM

[...]

> Of course it interacts poorly with CallHome, because the receiver list=
> is used INSTEAD of CallHome,
> not with CallHome. CH is for initiating a new NC or RC session, so a > "special" version of it
> that doesn't initiate a session would be a misuse.=C2=A0 I guess t= he
> concept of SNMP Trap Receiver is
> not that clear to the NETCONF WG.
>
> <Eric> Agree.

I am confused.=C2=A0 The intention is to use the "receiver" list = AND call
home, right?=C2=A0 =C2=A0IMO, the "receiver" list is a transport = indenpendent
construct, and depending on the transport, it is augmented with
necessary parameters; in the case of NETCONF call-home will be used.
In the case of UDP some other parameters will be used.=C2=A0 Etc.

=C2=A0

I am not a fan of standards that are useless unless = and until

they are augmented with proprietary objects.<= u>

=C2=A0

<eric> I wouldn=E2=80=99t say proprietary obj= ects.=C2=A0=C2=A0 From the perspective of just the subscribed-notifications= draft, they would be transport specific objects.

=C2=A0



IMO there needs to b= e at least 1 complete standard solution that servers must support.
I would prefer that configured subscriptions be held back until a fully-b= aked standard solution
is ready.

=C2=A0<= /div>
<= div>

CallHome does not really work here because once it i= s completed

the NETCONF session is idle. The server is waiting f= or

the client to send an <rpc-request>. =C2=A0

There is nothing standard that indicates

the client will just wait and the server will start = sending notifications.

=C2=A0

<eric> My reading of RFC 8071 section 3 is th= at it doesn=E2=80=99t specify client behavior once the transport session is= up. Just that NETCONF can start. And you are correct, after is starts, it is idle.

=C2=A0



I don't = think this fits the intent of CallHome.
IMO a new protocol is nee= ded that is dedicated to the binary transport
of notification sub= scription data.=C2=A0


=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

To make that work with configured subscriptions, wh= at the text says is:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9Cthe first configured subscription to a spe= cific receiver MUST establish a NETCONF transport session via NETCONF call = home [RFC8071], section 4.1.=C2=A0 This transport session MUST then be used by additional configured subscriptions targeting that the sam= e receiver.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

As a result, it should be possible to steer the Cal= l Home transport session to a NETCONF port on the receiver capable of await= ing inbound notifications.=C2=A0 (I.e., something which could act in a role similar to SNMP trap receiver.)=C2=A0 To cover this, I= have tweaked the to:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9Cthe first configured subscription to a spe= cific receiver MUST establish a NETCONF transport session via NETCONF call = home [RFC8071], section 4.1.=C2=A0 The receiver=E2=80=99s NETCONF client MUST be capable of awaiting the publisher=E2=80=99s sending of unsolicited= notification messages.=C2=A0 This transport session MUST also then be used= by additional configured subscriptions targeting that the same receiver ca= ll home connection.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

As a standard, this is unusable.

It assumes the client developer will know the magic = port numbers in advance

in order to use each server (maybe port 40123 mean s= ubscription 23 on

server X and port 40023 means a regular CallHome ses= sion. Network management

by ad-hoc port assignments seems fragile at best.=

=C2=A0

<eric> I believe it is unnecessary to have a = configured subscription per port.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Multiple subscriptions should= be able to use the same transport session.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A different c= all home is only needed if there is an explicit reason to separate the session= s.


OK -- it should be specified in the TBD protoco= l mentioned above

<= /u>

=C2=A0

Eric

=C2=A0


Andy
=C2=A0
=
<= div>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

/martin=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0


> Current path allows augmentation of leafrefs to NETCONF
> CH once client-server completes.=C2=A0 For our implementation, we will= be
> augmenting in address and port now.=C2=A0 This will be a vendor specif= ic
> augmentation of course.
>
> Eric
>
>
> To make progress, I am ok with anything here but stalemate.=C2=A0 And = if
> only supporting dynamic subscriptions results in progress, that is ok<= br> > with me.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
> Configured subscriptions are less important for us.
>
> regards Balazs
>
> On 7/4/2018 9:40 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen
> <kwatsen@j= uniper.net<mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net>> wrote:
> Since folks are leaning towards:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dynamic: MUST
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MAY
>
> We might also consider:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dynamic: MUST
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: TBD
>
> Since the transport bindings (only needed for configured
> subscriptions) seem to depend on the client/server drafts, which
> aren't ready yet.
>
>
> The "receiver" list is rather proprietary since it has nothi= ng in it
> about where or how to send packets,
> such as the destination socket, protocol, or message encoding.
> I don't see how configured subscriptions are useful as a standard<= br> > without these details.
>
>
> Kent // contributor
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> On 7/2/18, 6:50 PM, "Eric Voit (evoit)"
> <evoit@cisco.c= om<mailto:evoit= @cisco.com>> wrote:
>
> I am closing this question.=C2=A0 All votes are for Option 2, which is=
> reflected in the current draft.
>
> Eric
>
> From: Andy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen
> <kwatsen@j= uniper.net<mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net>> wrote:
>
> To be clear, we=E2=80=99re discussing conformance requirements.=C2=A0 = Options are:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1: dynamic: MAY
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MAY
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2: dynamic: MUST
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured: MAY
>
>
>
> I support this option (I think this is in the draft now).
> The configured subscriptions are likely less interoperable at this
> point because
> the protocol, transport, and encoding could be proprietary.=C2=A0 Ther= e are
> also
> call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means plain call-home,
> magic port Y means subscription call-home).
>
> The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by the NETCONF or > RESTCONF
> protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent across server
> implementations.
>
> There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in addition to
> edit-config.
> (As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not introduce
> parameters
> that are not already in the configured subscriptions..
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3: dynamic: MAY
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured: MUST
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 4: dynamic: MUST
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured: MUST
>
> I don=E2=80=99t really care, as long as there is a good reason for it.=
>
> Kent // contributor
>
>
> On Jun 24, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Henk Birkholz
> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.frau= nhofer.de>>
> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but maybe I am = missing
> something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of netconf. >
> In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "only Configur= ed
> Subscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a strong yes= wrt
> "Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional feature&qu= ot;.
>
> Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should support
> resilient rendezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am aware of call=
> home and this seems to be an excellent lightweight basis to build more=
> complex solutions on that will benefit significantly from available > dynamic subscription features.
>
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>
> Henk
> On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Voit (evoit)" > <evoit=3D40cisco.c= om<https://urldefense.proofpoint.co= m/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__40cisco.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAk= Yuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EP= oOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D6F3EmGQsbc6Pw0-388AClIWI= uFSd8lJgeV1wTTBcqy4&s=3DfayskuGFUwaicBmdSM3jKsn4WctY15g1= FRQuJrZcd7I&e=3D>@dmarc.ietf..org<https://ur= ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__dmarc.ietf.org&d= =3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&= ;r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3DHWe= JMn9vdaXx8aXKRl88y-y1kxIITqL4DeOrv2ykrX8&s=3Dg9Gr4Dqd_DvMfHml= F8pBRvori_D1bd7UloKmwLO1YfE&e=3D>>
> wrote:
> Per below, Kent is interested to know if anyone wants to support a
> Publisher of just Configured Subscriptions.=C2=A0 This would turn Dyna= mic
> Subscriptions into an optional feature.
>
>
> So does anyone want this?=C2=A0 If a few people say yes, I will tweak = the
> document.
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <Kent8> I understand that supporting dynamic subscriptions is > currently a requirement.=C2=A0 I am challenging that requirement.=C2= =A0 Why is
> it a requirement?=C2=A0 Does it have to be a requirement?
>
> What if an IoT device only wants to support configured subscriptions > and having code to support dynamic is wasting space?=C2=A0 FWIW, I rea= lize
> that not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it would be<= br> > impossible to filling in gaps introduced by a reboot, but maybe that&#= 39;s
> a decision that the vendor can/should make for themselves?
>
> <Eric9> In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic subscriptions.=C2= =A0 So
> support for that older spec by definition makes dynamic subscriptions<= br> > mandatory.=C2=A0 Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-7923 as we= ll as
> sections of other documents like RFC-7921, section 7.6 identify
> dynamic subscriptions as mandatory for a subscription service.=C2=A0 S= o at
> least some use cases exist where such dynamic support is mandatory. >
> <Kent9> Does it?=C2=A0 I mean, this draft doesn't obsolete 5= 277, so it
> seems that server can optionally support one or the other or both, and=
> when it supports this draft, can't it use a feature statement to l= imit
> dynamic subscriptions?
>
> <Eric10> Per below, I am ok to make dynamic subscription support=
> optional (even if I don=E2=80=99t believe this is the right decision).= =C2=A0 Part
> of the fix in the YANG Model description text would be to note that > either dynamic or configured must be supported.
>
> With your IoT publisher use case above you are asserting that dynamic<= br> > subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription only
> publishers =E2=80=93 i.e., there are a class of publishers which have = been
> driven by use cases not considered by the documents referenced above.<= br> > So who has documented the need configured subscription only
> publishers?=C2=A0 I can=E2=80=99t point to such documentation (beyond = IoT case
> above).=C2=A0 Is such a possibility worth slowing down this spec?=C2= =A0 In the
> end making the fix for this specification which you seem to want is > itself really quite trivial: we can make both dynamic and configured > subscriptions optional.=C2=A0 The reason I have been resisting it is t= hat
> this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers as yet
> another feature would have to be advertised as optional, (b) this
> waters down the mandatory capabilities support of the YANG module, and=
> (c) we would need to include some a constraint that at least one of > the two optional features needs to be supported.=C2=A0 Also for (c) AF= AIK,
> features don=E2=80=99t support the application of such constraints, so= it
> would have to be done in the feature descriptions themselves.
>
> I guess the text above is a long way of saying that if you assert the<= br> > optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress the document, I=
> will make the change.=C2=A0 But the change will impose complexity cost= s
> which to me are hard to justify.
>
> <Kent10> why don't you ask the WG?=C2=A0 "Should we sup= port servers having
> only configured subscriptions (i.e. no dynamic subscriptions)?"= =C2=A0 FWIW,
> the ietf-*conf-server modules have features around both the "list= en"
> and "call-home" subtrees.=C2=A0 Heck, you might think "= listen" would be
> mandatory (per RFC 6241), but still we support the possibility of a > server only supporting call-home=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <Kent9> that's a reasonable answer, but mind you that it was= your IoT
> use-case originally.=C2=A0 I'd like to get other opinions.=C2=A0 Y= es, trivial to
> add now, hard to add later, more flexibility for servers, almost no > additional effort for clients.=C2=A0 FWIW, I'm planning to add a f= eature
> statement for "periodic connections" in the
> ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts for similar reasons, tha= t the
> server just might not want to support them, and I don't want the > minimal bar to be higher than needed.
>
> <Eric10> Lets go with whatever opinions people have.=C2=A0 I wil= l adapt
> accordingly.=C2=A0 Do you want me to start an independent thread?
>
> <Kent10> yes, please ask the WG
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org= <mailto:Netcon= f@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<https://urldefense.proofpo= int.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www..ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_netco= nf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3vo= DTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&= ;m=3DHWeJMn9vdaXx8aXKRl88y-y1kxIITqL4DeOrv2ykrX8&s=3DjWW= YWO3k32-6mUco2IlCaCSzMXOuQzyzGamyAcIz1tE&e=3D>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Netconf mailing list
>
> Netconf@ietf.org= <mailto:Netcon= f@ietf.org>
>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
= >
> --
>
> Balazs Lengyel=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Er= icsson Hungary Ltd.
>
> Senior Specialist<= br> >
> Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 e= mail:
> Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson..com<= ;mailto:Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com>
>
> <= /u>

=C2=A0



Details like the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply, etc do not really impact that decision.

When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in improving the
efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV.

I think this draft should focus on the protocol mechanisms and not define
any media types. Definitions of GPB and other formats are not trivial and need
their own RFCs.


Andy


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hello,
Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary encoding be interesting?

Chapter 2)

- A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be good. What is the top XML element that will be encoded? <rpc>, <RPC-reply>, <RPC-error>, <notification> ? Just referencing a figure in another draft is not enough.

- SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for the XML encoding? Is that always implicit? State it.

4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here?

I would think that all encodings need some official reference, defining how they are used with YANG: RFC, web link

Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere or do we need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case.

regards Balazs





--
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs..Lengyel@ericsson.com

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
--000000000000132435057069acab-- From nobody Sat Jul 7 10:18:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12910130DDD for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:18:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gv4eHBnjl7z4 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F665130E82 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-155-4-133-90.NA.cust.bahnhof.se [155.4.133.90]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 404A31AE028C; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 19:18:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 19:18:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180707.191800.381558468801603068.mbj@tail-f.com> To: andy@yumaworks.com Cc: evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: References: <895bc6a027484796a0aa0dde4c144f8b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180707.122539.1914166298230280820.mbj@tail-f.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 17:18:09 -0000 QW5keSBCaWVybWFuIDxhbmR5QHl1bWF3b3Jrcy5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiBPbiBTYXQsIEp1bCA3 LCAyMDE4IGF0IDM6MjUgQU0sIE1hcnRpbiBCam9ya2x1bmQgPG1iakB0YWlsLWYuY29tPiB3cm90 ZToNCj4gDQo+ID4gIkVyaWMgVm9pdCBcKGV2b2l0XCkiIDxldm9pdD00MGNpc2NvLmNvbUBkbWFy Yy5pZXRmLm9yZz4gd3JvdGU6DQo+ID4gPiBGcm9tOiBBbmR5IEJpZXJtYW4sIEp1bHkgNSwgMjAx OCAxOjQ0IFBNDQo+ID4gPg0KPiA+ID4NCj4gPiA+IE9uIFRodSwgSnVsIDUsIDIwMTggYXQgMTA6 MzEgQU0sIEVyaWMgVm9pdCAoZXZvaXQpDQo+ID4gPiA8ZXZvaXRAY2lzY28uY29tPG1haWx0bzpl dm9pdEBjaXNjby5jb20+PiB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiA+IEhpIEFuZHksDQo+ID4gPg0KPiA+ID4gRnJv bTogQW5keSBCaWVybWFuLCBKdWx5IDUsIDIwMTggMTI6MjYgUE0NCj4gPg0KPiA+IFsuLi5dDQo+ ID4NCj4gPiA+IE9mIGNvdXJzZSBpdCBpbnRlcmFjdHMgcG9vcmx5IHdpdGggQ2FsbEhvbWUsIGJl 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bTxtYWlsdG86QmFsYXpzLkxlbmd5ZWxAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tPg0KPiA+ID4NCj4gPiA+DQo+ID4N Cg== From nobody Sat Jul 7 11:07:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4F32130E89 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:07:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YjrLeGXGucVl for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:07:31 -0700 (PDT) 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HTTP; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:07:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180707.191800.381558468801603068.mbj@tail-f.com> References: <895bc6a027484796a0aa0dde4c144f8b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180707.122539.1914166298230280820.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180707.191800.381558468801603068.mbj@tail-f.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:07:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Bjorklund Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000046b09405706ca7c7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 18:07:36 -0000 --00000000000046b09405706ca7c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 10:18 AM, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > Andy Bierman wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Martin Bjorklund wrote= : > > > > > "Eric Voit \(evoit\)" wrote: > > > > From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 1:44 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) > > > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Andy, > > > > > > > > From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 12:26 PM > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > Of course it interacts poorly with CallHome, because the receiver > list > > > > is used INSTEAD of CallHome, > > > > not with CallHome. CH is for initiating a new NC or RC session, so = a > > > > "special" version of it > > > > that doesn't initiate a session would be a misuse. I guess the > > > > concept of SNMP Trap Receiver is > > > > not that clear to the NETCONF WG. > > > > > > > > Agree. > > > > > > I am confused. The intention is to use the "receiver" list AND call > > > home, right? IMO, the "receiver" list is a transport indenpendent > > > construct, and depending on the transport, it is augmented with > > > necessary parameters; in the case of NETCONF call-home will be used. > > > In the case of UDP some other parameters will be used. Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > I am not a fan of standards that are useless unless and until > > they are augmented with proprietary objects. > > > > CallHome does not really work here because once it is completed > > the NETCONF session is idle. The server is waiting for > > the client to send an . There is nothing standard that > > indicates > > the client will just wait and the server will start sending > notifications. > > I see. But is there really anything in 6241 that prohibits this? > Wouldn't it be ok if the new netconf-notif draft specifies this > behavior? > > If it can't be solved in this way, we'd have to define a new rpc > > > You mean I think. No need. I guess this does not violate CallHome. There is no way to tell (except by implementation) if the callhome client can accept messages even though it did not request them with an RPC. > /martin > > > Andy > > > > > > > As a standard, this is unusable. > > It assumes the client developer will know the magic port numbers in > advance > > in order to use each server (maybe port 40123 mean subscription 23 on > > server X and port 40023 means a regular CallHome session. Network > management > > by ad-hoc port assignments seems fragile at best. > > > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > Current path allows augmentation of leafrefs to NETCONF > > > > CH once client-server completes. For our implementation, we will b= e > > > > augmenting in address and port now. This will be a vendor specific > > > > augmentation of course. > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > To make progress, I am ok with anything here but stalemate. And if > > > > only supporting dynamic subscriptions results in progress, that is = ok > > > > with me. > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > Configured subscriptions are less important for us. > > > > > > > > regards Balazs > > > > > > > > On 7/4/2018 9:40 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen > > > > > wrote: > > > > Since folks are leaning towards: > > > > > > > > dynamic: MUST > > > > configured: MAY > > > > > > > > We might also consider: > > > > > > > > dynamic: MUST > > > > configured: TBD > > > > > > > > Since the transport bindings (only needed for configured > > > > subscriptions) seem to depend on the client/server drafts, which > > > > aren't ready yet. > > > > > > > > > > > > The "receiver" list is rather proprietary since it has nothing in i= t > > > > about where or how to send packets, > > > > such as the destination socket, protocol, or message encoding. > > > > I don't see how configured subscriptions are useful as a standard > > > > without these details. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/2/18, 6:50 PM, "Eric Voit (evoit)" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I am closing this question. All votes are for Option 2, which is > > > > reflected in the current draft. > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > From: Andy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > To be clear, we=E2=80=99re discussing conformance requirements. Op= tions are: > > > > > > > > 1: dynamic: MAY > > > > configured: MAY > > > > > > > > 2: dynamic: MUST > > > > configured: MAY > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I support this option (I think this is in the draft now). > > > > The configured subscriptions are likely less interoperable at this > > > > point because > > > > the protocol, transport, and encoding could be proprietary. There > are > > > > also > > > > call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means plain call-home, > > > > magic port Y means subscription call-home). > > > > > > > > The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by the NETCONF or > > > > RESTCONF > > > > protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent across server > > > > implementations. > > > > > > > > There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in addition to > > > > edit-config. > > > > (As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not introduce > > > > parameters > > > > that are not already in the configured subscriptions.. > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3: dynamic: MAY > > > > configured: MUST > > > > > > > > 4: dynamic: MUST > > > > configured: MUST > > > > > > > > I don=E2=80=99t really care, as long as there is a good reason for = it. > > > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 24, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Henk Birkholz > > > > fraunhofer.de > > > >> > > > > wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but maybe I am missing > > > > something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of netconf. > > > > > > > > In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "only Configured > > > > Subscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a strong yes w= rt > > > > "Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional feature". > > > > > > > > Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should support > > > > resilient rendezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am aware of > call > > > > home and this seems to be an excellent lightweight basis to build > more > > > > complex solutions on that will benefit significantly from available > > > > dynamic subscription features. > > > > > > > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > > > > > > > Henk > > > > On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Voit (evoit)" > > > > > > url?u=3Dhttp-3A__40cisco.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe= MK- > > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D > > > 6F3EmGQsbc6Pw0-388AClIWIuFSd8lJgeV1wTTBcqy4&s=3D > > > fayskuGFUwaicBmdSM3jKsn4WctY15g1FRQuJrZcd7I&e=3D>@dmarc.ietf.org< > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp- > > > 3A__dmarc.ietf.org&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D > > > HWeJMn9vdaXx8aXKRl88y-y1kxIITqL4DeOrv2ykrX8&s=3D > g9Gr4Dqd_DvMfHmlF8pBRvori_ > > > D1bd7UloKmwLO1YfE&e=3D>> > > > > wrote: > > > > Per below, Kent is interested to know if anyone wants to support a > > > > Publisher of just Configured Subscriptions. This would turn Dynami= c > > > > Subscriptions into an optional feature. > > > > > > > > > > > > So does anyone want this? If a few people say yes, I will tweak th= e > > > > document. > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand that supporting dynamic subscriptions is > > > > currently a requirement. I am challenging that requirement. Why i= s > > > > it a requirement? Does it have to be a requirement? > > > > > > > > What if an IoT device only wants to support configured subscription= s > > > > and having code to support dynamic is wasting space? FWIW, I reali= ze > > > > that not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it would = be > > > > impossible to filling in gaps introduced by a reboot, but maybe > that's > > > > a decision that the vendor can/should make for themselves? > > > > > > > > In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic subscriptions. So > > > > support for that older spec by definition makes dynamic subscriptio= ns > > > > mandatory. Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-7923 as well > as > > > > sections of other documents like RFC-7921, section 7.6 identify > > > > dynamic subscriptions as mandatory for a subscription service. So = at > > > > least some use cases exist where such dynamic support is mandatory. > > > > > > > > Does it? I mean, this draft doesn't obsolete 5277, so it > > > > seems that server can optionally support one or the other or both, > and > > > > when it supports this draft, can't it use a feature statement to > limit > > > > dynamic subscriptions? > > > > > > > > Per below, I am ok to make dynamic subscription support > > > > optional (even if I don=E2=80=99t believe this is the right decisio= n). Part > > > > of the fix in the YANG Model description text would be to note that > > > > either dynamic or configured must be supported. > > > > > > > > With your IoT publisher use case above you are asserting that dynam= ic > > > > subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription only > > > > publishers =E2=80=93 i.e., there are a class of publishers which ha= ve been > > > > driven by use cases not considered by the documents referenced abov= e. > > > > So who has documented the need configured subscription only > > > > publishers? I can=E2=80=99t point to such documentation (beyond Io= T case > > > > above). Is such a possibility worth slowing down this spec? In th= e > > > > end making the fix for this specification which you seem to want is > > > > itself really quite trivial: we can make both dynamic and configure= d > > > > subscriptions optional. The reason I have been resisting it is tha= t > > > > this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers as yet > > > > another feature would have to be advertised as optional, (b) this > > > > waters down the mandatory capabilities support of the YANG module, > and > > > > (c) we would need to include some a constraint that at least one of > > > > the two optional features needs to be supported. Also for (c) AFAI= K, > > > > features don=E2=80=99t support the application of such constraints,= so it > > > > would have to be done in the feature descriptions themselves. > > > > > > > > I guess the text above is a long way of saying that if you assert t= he > > > > optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress the document= , > I > > > > will make the change. But the change will impose complexity costs > > > > which to me are hard to justify. > > > > > > > > why don't you ask the WG? "Should we support servers havi= ng > > > > only configured subscriptions (i.e. no dynamic subscriptions)?" > FWIW, > > > > the ietf-*conf-server modules have features around both the "listen= " > > > > and "call-home" subtrees. Heck, you might think "listen" would be > > > > mandatory (per RFC 6241), but still we support the possibility of a > > > > server only supporting call-home=E2=80=A6 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's a reasonable answer, but mind you that it was your I= oT > > > > use-case originally. I'd like to get other opinions. Yes, trivial > to > > > > add now, hard to add later, more flexibility for servers, almost no > > > > additional effort for clients. FWIW, I'm planning to add a feature > > > > statement for "periodic connections" in the > > > > ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts for similar reasons, that > the > > > > server just might not want to support them, and I don't want the > > > > minimal bar to be higher than needed. > > > > > > > > Lets go with whatever opinions people have. I will adapt > > > > accordingly. Do you want me to start an independent thread? > > > > > > > > yes, please ask the WG > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity= . > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Netconf mailing list > > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ > > > mailman_listinfo_netconf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D > > > HWeJMn9vdaXx8aXKRl88y-y1kxIITqL4DeOrv2ykrX8&s=3DjWWYWO3k32- > > > 6mUco2IlCaCSzMXOuQzyzGamyAcIz1tE&e=3D> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Netconf mailing list > > > > > > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. > > > > > > > > Senior Specialist > > > > > > > > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: > > > > Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com > > > > > > > > > > > > --00000000000046b09405706ca7c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 10:18 AM, Martin Bjorklund <= ;mbj@tail-f.com>= wrote:
Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:
>
> > "Eric Voit \(evoit\)" <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> > > From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 1:44 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Eric Voit (evoit)
> > > <evoit@cisco.com&l= t;mailto:evoit@cisco.com>>= ; wrote:
> > > Hi Andy,
> > >
> > > From: Andy Bierman, July 5, 2018 12:26 PM
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > Of course it interacts poorly with CallHome, because the rec= eiver list
> > > is used INSTEAD of CallHome,
> > > not with CallHome. CH is for initiating a new NC or RC sessi= on, so a
> > > "special" version of it
> > > that doesn't initiate a session would be a misuse.=C2=A0= I guess the
> > > concept of SNMP Trap Receiver is
> > > not that clear to the NETCONF WG.
> > >
> > > <Eric> Agree.
> >
> > I am confused.=C2=A0 The intention is to use the "receiver&q= uot; list AND call
> > home, right?=C2=A0 =C2=A0IMO, the "receiver" list is a = transport indenpendent
> > construct, and depending on the transport, it is augmented with > > necessary parameters; in the case of NETCONF call-home will be us= ed.
> > In the case of UDP some other parameters will be used.=C2=A0 Etc.=
> >
> >
> >
> I am not a fan of standards that are useless unless and until
> they are augmented with proprietary objects.
>
> CallHome does not really work here because once it is completed
> the NETCONF session is idle. The server is waiting for
> the client to send an <rpc-request>.=C2=A0 =C2=A0There is nothin= g standard that
> indicates
> the client will just wait and the server will start sending notificati= ons.

I see.=C2=A0 But is there really anything in 6241 that prohibits this?
Wouldn't it be ok if the new netconf-notif draft specifies this
behavior?

If it can't be solved in this way, we'd have to define a new rpc <start-all-subscribed-subscriptions>



You mean <start-all-= configured-subscriptions> I think. No need.
I guess this does = not violate CallHome.

There is no way to tell (exc= ept by implementation) if the callhome client can accept
<noti= fication> messages even though it did not request them with an RPC.



/martin



Andy
=C2=A0



>
> As a standard, this is unusable.
> It assumes the client developer will know the magic port numbers in ad= vance
> in order to use each server (maybe port 40123 mean subscription 23 on<= br> > server X and port 40023 means a regular CallHome session. Network mana= gement
> by ad-hoc port assignments seems fragile at best.
>
>
>
> /martin
> >
> >
>
> Andy
>
>
> >
> > > Current path allows augmentation of leafrefs to NETCONF
> > > CH once client-server completes.=C2=A0 For our implementatio= n, we will be
> > > augmenting in address and port now.=C2=A0 This will be a ven= dor specific
> > > augmentation of course.
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > >
> > > To make progress, I am ok with anything here but stalemate.= =C2=A0 And if
> > > only supporting dynamic subscriptions results in progress, t= hat is ok
> > > with me.
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > >
> > > Configured subscriptions are less important for us.
> > >
> > > regards Balazs
> > >
> > > On 7/4/2018 9:40 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Kent Watsen
> > > <kwatsen@juniper.n= et<mailto:kwatsen@junipe= r.net>> wrote:
> > > Since folks are leaning towards:
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dynamic: MUST
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MAY
> > >
> > > We might also consider:
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dynamic: MUST
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: TBD
> > >
> > > Since the transport bindings (only needed for configured
> > > subscriptions) seem to depend on the client/server drafts, w= hich
> > > aren't ready yet.
> > >
> > >
> > > The "receiver" list is rather proprietary since it= has nothing in it
> > > about where or how to send packets,
> > > such as the destination socket, protocol, or message encodin= g.
> > > I don't see how configured subscriptions are useful as a= standard
> > > without these details.
> > >
> > >
> > > Kent // contributor
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 7/2/18, 6:50 PM, "Eric Voit (evoit)"
> > > <evoit@cisco.com&l= t;mailto:evoit@cisco.com>>= ; wrote:
> > >
> > > I am closing this question.=C2=A0 All votes are for Option 2= , which is
> > > reflected in the current draft.
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > > From: Andy Bierman, June 25, 2018 1:22 PM
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 5:45 AM, Kent Watsen
> > > <kwatsen@juniper.n= et<mailto:kwatsen@junipe= r.net>> wrote:
> > >
> > > To be clear, we=E2=80=99re discussing conformance requiremen= ts.=C2=A0 Options are:
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1: dynamic: MAY
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured: MAY
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2: dynamic: MUST
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured: MAY
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I support this option (I think this is in the draft now). > > > The configured subscriptions are likely less interoperable a= t this
> > > point because
> > > the protocol, transport, and encoding could be proprietary.= =C2=A0 There are
> > > also
> > > call-home issues (magic proprietary port X means plain call-= home,
> > > magic port Y means subscription call-home).
> > >
> > > The dynamic subscription is much more constrained by the NET= CONF or
> > > RESTCONF
> > > protocols, so it is more likely to be consistent across serv= er
> > > implementations.
> > >
> > > There is no extra burden for supporting an RPC in addition t= o
> > > edit-config.
> > > (As edit-config itself is an RPC.) The RPC does not introduc= e
> > > parameters
> > > that are not already in the configured subscriptions..
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3: dynamic: MAY
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured: MUST
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 4: dynamic: MUST
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured: MUST
> > >
> > > I don=E2=80=99t really care, as long as there is a good reas= on for it.
> > >
> > > Kent // contributor
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jun 24, 2018, at 7:42 AM, Henk Birkholz
> > > <henk.= birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
> > >>
> > > wrote:
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > this poll seems to ask only for "yes" votes, but m= aybe I am missing
> > > something obvious here, but I am also new to the domain of n= etconf.
> > >
> > > In any case, I would like to voice a strong no wrt "onl= y Configured
> > > Subscriptions". In complement, I would like to voice a = strong yes wrt
> > > "Dynamic Subscriptions are not turned into an optional = feature".
> > >
> > > Drop-shipping or enrollment of YANG datastores should suppor= t
> > > resilient rendezvous, join or discovery prodedures. I am awa= re of call
> > > home and this seems to be an excellent lightweight basis to = build more
> > > complex solutions on that will benefit significantly from av= ailable
> > > dynamic subscription features.
> > >
> > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
> > >
> > > Henk
> > > On June 23, 2018 7:50:33 AM GMT+02:00, "Eric Voit (evoi= t)"
> > > <evoit=3D40cisco.com<https://urldefense.= proofpoint.com/v2/
> > url?u=3Dhttp-3A__40cisco.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAk= Yuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaG= TvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D
> > 6F3EmGQsbc6Pw0-388AClIWIuFSd8lJgeV1wTTBcqy4&s=3D > > fayskuGFUwaicBmdSM3jKsn4WctY15g1FRQuJrZcd7I&e=3D>@dmarc.i= etf.org<
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v= 2/url?u=3Dhttp-
> > 3A__dmarc.ietf.org&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuh= r6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaG= TvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D
> > HWeJMn9vdaXx8aXKRl88y-y1kxIITqL4DeOrv2ykrX8&s=3Dg9G= r4Dqd_DvMfHmlF8pBRvori_
> > D1bd7UloKmwLO1YfE&e=3D>>
> > > wrote:
> > > Per below, Kent is interested to know if anyone wants to sup= port a
> > > Publisher of just Configured Subscriptions.=C2=A0 This would= turn Dynamic
> > > Subscriptions into an optional feature.
> > >
> > >
> > > So does anyone want this?=C2=A0 If a few people say yes, I w= ill tweak the
> > > document.
> > >
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > <Kent8> I understand that supporting dynamic subscript= ions is
> > > currently a requirement.=C2=A0 I am challenging that require= ment.=C2=A0 Why is
> > > it a requirement?=C2=A0 Does it have to be a requirement? > > >
> > > What if an IoT device only wants to support configured subsc= riptions
> > > and having code to support dynamic is wasting space?=C2=A0 F= WIW, I realize
> > > that not supporting dynamic subscriptions also means that it= would be
> > > impossible to filling in gaps introduced by a reboot, but ma= ybe that's
> > > a decision that the vendor can/should make for themselves? > > >
> > > <Eric9> In RFC-5277, all you have is dynamic subscript= ions.=C2=A0 So
> > > support for that older spec by definition makes dynamic subs= criptions
> > > mandatory.=C2=A0 Beyond that, newer specifications like RFC-= 7923 as well as
> > > sections of other documents like RFC-7921, section 7.6 ident= ify
> > > dynamic subscriptions as mandatory for a subscription servic= e.=C2=A0 So at
> > > least some use cases exist where such dynamic support is man= datory.
> > >
> > > <Kent9> Does it?=C2=A0 I mean, this draft doesn't = obsolete 5277, so it
> > > seems that server can optionally support one or the other or= both, and
> > > when it supports this draft, can't it use a feature stat= ement to limit
> > > dynamic subscriptions?
> > >
> > > <Eric10> Per below, I am ok to make dynamic subscripti= on support
> > > optional (even if I don=E2=80=99t believe this is the right = decision).=C2=A0 Part
> > > of the fix in the YANG Model description text would be to no= te that
> > > either dynamic or configured must be supported.
> > >
> > > With your IoT publisher use case above you are asserting tha= t dynamic
> > > subscriptions are not needed for configured subscription onl= y
> > > publishers =E2=80=93 i.e., there are a class of publishers w= hich have been
> > > driven by use cases not considered by the documents referenc= ed above.
> > > So who has documented the need configured subscription only<= br> > > > publishers?=C2=A0 I can=E2=80=99t point to such documentatio= n (beyond IoT case
> > > above).=C2=A0 Is such a possibility worth slowing down this = spec?=C2=A0 In the
> > > end making the fix for this specification which you seem to = want is
> > > itself really quite trivial: we can make both dynamic and co= nfigured
> > > subscriptions optional.=C2=A0 The reason I have been resisti= ng it is that
> > > this solution (a) leads to more complexity for implementers = as yet
> > > another feature would have to be advertised as optional, (b)= this
> > > waters down the mandatory capabilities support of the YANG m= odule, and
> > > (c) we would need to include some a constraint that at least= one of
> > > the two optional features needs to be supported.=C2=A0 Also = for (c) AFAIK,
> > > features don=E2=80=99t support the application of such const= raints, so it
> > > would have to be done in the feature descriptions themselves= .
> > >
> > > I guess the text above is a long way of saying that if you a= ssert the
> > > optional dynamic subscription is mandatory to progress the d= ocument, I
> > > will make the change.=C2=A0 But the change will impose compl= exity costs
> > > which to me are hard to justify.
> > >
> > > <Kent10> why don't you ask the WG?=C2=A0 "Sho= uld we support servers having
> > > only configured subscriptions (i.e. no dynamic subscriptions= )?"=C2=A0 FWIW,
> > > the ietf-*conf-server modules have features around both the = "listen"
> > > and "call-home" subtrees.=C2=A0 Heck, you might th= ink "listen" would be
> > > mandatory (per RFC 6241), but still we support the possibili= ty of a
> > > server only supporting call-home=E2=80=A6
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > <Kent9> that's a reasonable answer, but mind you t= hat it was your IoT
> > > use-case originally.=C2=A0 I'd like to get other opinion= s.=C2=A0 Yes, trivial to
> > > add now, hard to add later, more flexibility for servers, al= most no
> > > additional effort for clients.=C2=A0 FWIW, I'm planning = to add a feature
> > > statement for "periodic connections" in the
> > > ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server drafts for similar re= asons, that the
> > > server just might not want to support them, and I don't = want the
> > > minimal bar to be higher than needed.
> > >
> > > <Eric10> Lets go with whatever opinions people have.= =C2=A0 I will adapt
> > > accordingly.=C2=A0 Do you want me to start an independent th= read?
> > >
> > > <Kent10> yes, please ask the WG
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my = brevity.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Netconf mailing list
> > > Netconf@ietf.org<= mailto:Netconf@ietf.org> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/netconf<https://
> > urldefense.proofpoint.c= om/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_
> > mailman_listinfo_netconf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh6= 3rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaG= TvjISlaJdcZo&m=3D
> > HWeJMn9vdaXx8aXKRl88y-y1kxIITqL4DeOrv2ykrX8&s=3DjWW= YWO3k32-
> > 6mUco2IlCaCSzMXOuQzyzGamyAcIz1tE&e=3D>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > Netconf mailing list
> > >
> > > Netconf@ietf.org<= mailto:Netconf@ietf.org> > > >
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/netconf
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Balazs Lengyel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
> > >
> > > Senior Specialist
> > >
> > > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email:
> > > Balazs.Lengye= l@ericsson.com<mailto:Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com>
> > >
> > >
> >

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18:00:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 18:00:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5537D1FA-ADBE-4432-8FB7-8B2CAD5E9C9F@juniper.net> References: <895bc6a027484796a0aa0dde4c144f8b@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180707.122539.1914166298230280820.mbj@tail-f.com> <5537D1FA-ADBE-4432-8FB7-8B2CAD5E9C9F@juniper.net> From: Andy Bierman Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 18:00:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ce13370570726df6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 01:01:00 -0000 --000000000000ce13370570726df6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > > > IMO there needs to be at least 1 complete standard solution that servers > must support. > > > I would prefer that configured subscriptions be held back until a > fully-baked standard > > > solution is ready. > > > > This option will be discussed in Montreal. If the WG agrees, then the > below can be > > discussed later. > > > > > You convinced me that binary encoding of regular message flows is not a high priority for NETCONF. If the device or network is that constrained, maybe CoMI is a better choice. Also, use of will probably diminish as YANG Push is available instead. > I don't think this fits the intent of CallHome. > > > > RFC 8071 is very clear (see C8 and S6), the NC or RC protocol *starts*. > Also, from > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/QS14f-6w-BzCD9280uuO06CZK6c, > I > > wrote: > > > > That said, I have to say that I'm not entirely sure if I understand if > what is > > planned is legal. For instance, in a normal NETCONF call-home > situation, the > > NETCONF session begins with both sides sending messages and then > > the server waiting for the client to send RPCs, which might include a > 5277 > > , after which the begin to flow. > Is this > > the same here, or are you expecting the messages to start > flowing > > immediately? > > > The problem is that the RFC allows the callhome session to be used for normal NETCONF operations, so the client can send requests in XML at any time. I suppose there is a use-case for pre-configuring the subscriptions and then using call-home to connect to a controller that somehow knows all the subscriptions that could be configured (so no reads required). Since the controller needs to know about all the subscriptions anyway, it can just all > > > > IMO a new protocol is needed that is dedicated to the binary transport > > > of notification subscription data. > > > > Agreed, and I'd like that protocol to be: > > 1) mandatory to implement, if the "configured" feature is enabled. > I would give it its own feature > 2) run over UDP, so events can go out line cards directly. > or run over TCP I hope > 3) be optionally encrypted, as there are scenarios where it's safe to > send unencrypted > > events to a receiver within a security perimeter, which can relay > the events over an > > encrypted connection to a remote system, so as to offload the burden > from the NE > > equipment to a cheaper general purpose computer. > > > This was discussed in I2RS WG and a YANG extension can be used to tag ok-for-unencrypted, so this might get approved by the IESG. > FWIW, COAP is on top of UDP, and its use of DTLS is optional, so it seems > like a good > > match, though I don't know if it also needs a client-initiated RPC to > start the flow of logs. > > Out of curiosity, has anyone ever compared COAP to gRPC? > > > We have implemented RESTCONF over CoAP, but not with DTLS. This was also XML and JSON, not CBOR. I would rather let TCP deal with fragmentation instead of using CoAP Block. IMO the new protocol will be easier to get approved (i.e., much smaller in scope) if CoAP is reused instead of using raw UDP. GPB proto files have to be defined in advance. Generic protobuffs like gNMI are not as efficient. CBOR+SID requires no static templates, but does require that a lot of SID state be kept. IMO the efficiency is very impressive, and quite worth the SID caching for YANG Push. > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > > Andy --000000000000ce13370570726df6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net= > wrote:

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

> IMO there needs to be at least 1 complete stand= ard solution that servers must support.

> I would prefer that configured subscriptions be= held back until a fully-baked standard

> solution is ready.

=C2=A0

This option will be discussed in Montreal.=C2=A0 If = the WG agrees, then the below can be

discussed later.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0



You convinced me that bina= ry encoding of regular <rpc> message flows
is not a high pr= iority for NETCONF.=C2=A0 If the device or network is that constrained,
maybe CoMI is a better choice.=C2=A0 Also, use of <get> will p= robably diminish as YANG Push
is available instead.

> I don't think this fits the intent of CallH= ome.

=C2=A0

RFC 8071 is very clear (see C8 and S6), the NC or RC= protocol *starts*.=C2=A0 Also, from

https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/netconf/QS14f-6w-BzCD9280uuO06CZK6c, I<= u>

wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0That said, I have to say that I'm not enti= rely sure if I understand if what is

=C2=A0 planned is legal.=C2=A0 For instance, in a no= rmal NETCONF call-home situation, the

=C2=A0NETCONF session begins with both sides sending= <hello> messages and then

=C2=A0 the server waiting for the client to send RPC= s, which might include a 5277

=C2=A0 <create-subscription>, after which the = <notifications> begin to flow.=C2=A0 Is this

=C2=A0 the same here, or are you expecting the <n= otification> messages to start flowing

=C2=A0 immediately?

=C2=A0


The problem is that the RFC allows the ca= llhome session to be used for normal NETCONF operations,
so the c= lient can send <rpc> requests in XML at any time.

I suppose there is a use-case for pre-configuring the subscriptions a= nd then
using call-home to connect to a controller that somehow k= nows all the
subscriptions that could be configured (so no reads = required).
Since the controller needs to know about all the subsc= riptions anyway,
it can just all <establish-subscription>
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

> IMO a new protocol is needed that is dedicated = to the binary transport

> of notification subscription data.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Agreed, and I'd like that protocol to be:=

=C2=A0 1) mandatory to implement, if the "confi= gured" feature is enabled.


I would give it its own feature
=C2= =A0

=C2=A0 2) run over UDP, so events can go out line ca= rds directly.


=
or run over TCP I hope

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 3) be optionally encrypted, as there are scen= arios where it's safe to send unencrypted

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0events to a receiver = within a security perimeter, which can relay the events over an

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0encrypted connection = to a remote system, so as to offload the burden from the NE

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0equipment to a cheape= r general purpose computer.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=C2=A0


This was discussed in I2RS WG and a YANG = extension can be used to tag
ok-for-unencrypted, so this might ge= t approved by the IESG.

=C2=A0

FWIW, COAP is on top of UDP, and its use of DTLS is = optional, so it seems like a good

match, though I don't know if it also needs a cl= ient-initiated RPC to start the flow of logs.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever compared COAP to g= RPC?

=C2=A0



We have implemented RESTCO= NF over CoAP, but not with DTLS.
This was also XML and JSON, not = CBOR.

I would rather let TCP deal with fragmentati= on instead of using CoAP Block.
IMO the new protocol will be easi= er to get approved (i.e., much smaller in scope)
if CoAP is reuse= d instead of using raw UDP.

GPB proto files have t= o be defined in advance.
Generic protobuffs like gNMI are not as = efficient.
CBOR+SID requires no static templates, but does requir= e that
a lot of SID state be kept. IMO the efficiency is very imp= ressive, and quite worth
the SID caching for YANG Push.


=C2=A0

Kent // contributor

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0



Andy
=C2=A0

<= /div>
--000000000000ce13370570726df6-- From nobody Sun Jul 8 00:58:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E62130F3A for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 00:58:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cZQDFWcHxgug for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 00:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E4FF130DEB for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 00:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-155-4-133-90.NA.cust.bahnhof.se [155.4.133.90]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8AB791AE02BD; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:58:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 09:58:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> To: andy@yumaworks.com Cc: evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: References: <20180707.191800.381558468801603068.mbj@tail-f.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? 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netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5602D130E1A for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 01:09:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IA8Y1ktTXtN5 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 01:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59450130DD0 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 01:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-155-4-133-90.NA.cust.bahnhof.se [155.4.133.90]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 41E001AE02BD; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:09:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 10:09:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180708.100939.2159770155617819922.mbj@tail-f.com> To: kwatsen@juniper.net Cc: andy@yumaworks.com, evoit@cisco.com, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <5537D1FA-ADBE-4432-8FB7-8B2CAD5E9C9F@juniper.net> References: <5537D1FA-ADBE-4432-8FB7-8B2CAD5E9C9F@juniper.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 08:09:44 -0000 Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > IMO there needs to be at least 1 complete standard solution that servers must support. > > I would prefer that configured subscriptions be held back until a fully-baked standard > > solution is ready. > > This option will be discussed in Montreal. If the WG agrees, then the below can be > discussed later. > How about prioritizing the *conf-{client,server} models so that the netconf-notif draft can use them, so that we do get a standard solution now? Or do we think that these models are still far behind? > > I don't think this fits the intent of CallHome. > > RFC 8071 is very clear (see C8 and S6), the NC or RC protocol *starts*. Also, from > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/QS14f-6w-BzCD9280uuO06CZK6c, I > wrote: > > That said, I have to say that I'm not entirely sure if I understand if what is > planned is legal. For instance, in a normal NETCONF call-home situation, the > NETCONF session begins with both sides sending messages and then > the server waiting for the client to send RPCs, which might include a 5277 > , after which the begin to flow. Is this > the same here, or are you expecting the messages to start flowing > immediately? I think it is ok to start sending messages right away. If it is a problem, it could be protected by a new capability that the *client* would have to advertise. If this new capability is not advertised, the server wouldn't send these messages. > > IMO a new protocol is needed that is dedicated to the binary transport > > of notification subscription data. This might be true, but I think it is orthogonal to this dicsussion. And if we build the negotiation about encoding into the exchange, NETCONF with binary encoding can certainly be used for sending notification subscription data. > Agreed, and I'd like that protocol to be: > 1) mandatory to implement, if the "configured" feature is enabled. > 2) run over UDP, so events can go out line cards directly. > 3) be optionally encrypted, as there are scenarios where it's safe to send unencrypted > events to a receiver within a security perimeter, which can relay the events over an > encrypted connection to a remote system, so as to offload the burden from the NE > equipment to a cheaper general purpose computer. Isn't this what draft-ietf-netmod-udp-pub-channel tries to do? /martin > > FWIW, COAP is on top of UDP, and its use of DTLS is optional, so it seems like a good > match, though I don't know if it also needs a client-initiated RPC to start the flow of logs. > Out of curiosity, has anyone ever compared COAP to gRPC? > > > Kent // contributor > > > From nobody Sun Jul 8 01:37:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73E7130E0A for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 01:37:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yYmyUWWxBgpt for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 01:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C3C3130DF1 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 01:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-155-4-133-90.NA.cust.bahnhof.se [155.4.133.90]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 796C51AE02BD; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:37:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 10:37:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180708.103708.568656124603935473.mbj@tail-f.com> To: evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org Cc: kwatsen@juniper.net, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: References: <04c12295eafa4ae38d240817aefb792f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 08:37:14 -0000 "Eric Voit \(evoit\)" wrote: > > From: Kent Watsen, July 6, 2018 6:34 PM [...] > > >> Regarding the 4th > > >> bullet point following the first paragraph, I think that it is > > >> sufficient to just identify that a suitable base identity must > > >> be returned (i.e., lose the refs to Sections 2.4.6 and A.1). > > > > > > That is the way I initially had it. Martin requested that these > > > be made explicit during his review. > > > > I don't agree. YP is just one of potentially many (I exaggerate) > > layers on top of SN. If you want to keep this error-app-tag string (I don't think it is necessary, since the identity is also sent in within the ), then I think the document needs to clearly specify which identity to use for the different errors. I agree with Kent that the reference to YANG push is not needed here, and should be removed. I do think the reference to SN is needed, and I think the explicit list of rpcs and base identities help. Kent, do you think that this list is somehow incorrect or misleading? > What other layer are you expecting? Who knows? I agree w/ Kent; it is a matter of getting the design right, even if we don't see more layers at the moment. > > We need to ensure the language allows for > > other layers to be defined in the future. I imagine that there > > should be nothing special about YP as far as the notif drafts go. > > This does not precludes additional layers for being placed. If an implementation doesn't need an RPC, it can safely ignore the identity. > > In the end, when the WG requested that we inherit embedded NETCONF > and RESTCONF error processing mechanisms, and this drove to the > explicit mappings. > > > >> The 2nd paragraph seems to be defining a non-standard way to > > >> encode identities (red flag). > > > > > > This also was at Martin's request. It is not non-standard as it > > > simply describes the encoding of an error string. > > > > I see that error-app-tag is defined in RFC 6241 as a string, so > > maybe there is a basis for this, but note that identities are > > encoded differently for XML and JSON. It seems like this draft > > could declare that the value must conform to type "identity" > > and then leverage existing encoding-specific rules. What did > > Martin say? > > Per: > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14345.html > > "I think you should decide on one mechanism, and use it in both > drafts (specifically, the error-app-tag handling. BTW, *if* you > decide to keep it, you need to clarify what "a string that > corresponds to" means. Maybe use the JSON encoding of identities in > this case (:))." > > This defined encoding works, and can be placed the same way into different types of error mechanisms. Note my *if* above. If we simply don't specify anything for the error-app-tag, both these issues are solved. /martin > > > >> Section 10: the 1st paragraph is not a security consideration > > >> (move to Section 5?). > > > > > > Moved into 5.2. > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > >> The 2nd paragraph articulates a valid > > >> concern, but it seems to apply to all transports (although > > >> missing in the restconf-notif draft) and so should be moved > > >> to the SN draft? > > > > > > As the mechanism for mitigating certain DDoS vectors is > > > transport specific, the transport drafts seemed a better place. > > > > The problem statement (1st sentence) is generic and should be > > moved to the SN draft. > > Section 10, paragraph 2, sentence #1 is context to set up the requirements in sentence 2 & 3. So I replicated a NETCONF independent statement in SN: > > " For dynamic subscriptions, implementations need to protect against malicious or buggy subscribers which may send a large number "establish-subscription" requests, thereby using up system resources. To cover this possibility operators SHOULD monitor for such cases and, if discovered, take remedial action to limit the resources used, such as suspending or terminating a subset of the subscriptions or, if the underlying transport is session based, terminate the underlying transport session." > > > How to handle the issue in a generic > > way, if possible, should also be in the SN draft. Here, the > > 2nd sentence seems transport-specific and the 3rd transport- > > independent. However, I think that the 2nd or 3rd sentences > > could be stated better (and more generically) in the SN draft, > > something like this: > > > > Operators SHOULD monitor for such cases and, if discovered, > > take remedial action to limit the resources used, such as > > suspending or terminating a subset of the subscriptions or, > > if the underlying transport is session based, terminate the > > underlying transport session. > > > > > > > If you are good with it staying as a transport mechanism, I will > > > add corresponding text to RESTCONF-Notif. > > > > I prefer a generic Security Consideration in the SN draft. > > Hopefully the text above gets us there. > > Eric > > > >> The 3rd paragraph could be removed, since it > > >> isn't for dynamic subscriptions. > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf From nobody Sun Jul 8 03:03:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D2A130FAC for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 03:03:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rKAZUdOrUxus for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 03:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D94130FA9 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 03:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6A4CD22F9E6A; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 12:03:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 12:03:10 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Martin Bjorklund Cc: andy@yumaworks.com, evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Martin Bjorklund , andy@yumaworks.com, evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org References: <20180707.191800.381558468801603068.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 10:03:16 -0000 On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 09:58:07AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > You mean I think. > > Yes. > If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-) /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Sun Jul 8 09:06:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D999130EC1 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:05:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q-g60fHJ3VjN for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D2A8130E4F for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-155-4-133-90.NA.cust.bahnhof.se [155.4.133.90]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 997291AE02BD; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 18:05:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 18:05:52 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> To: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Cc: andy@yumaworks.com, evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 16:05:58 -0000 Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 09:58:07AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > You mean I think. > > > > Yes. > > > > If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not > simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-) Well, the configured subscription is needed anyway in order for the device to call home, so having the client create all configured subscriptions as dynamic subscriptions as well doesn't seem quite right. But if the WG agrees that it is ok to send directly, this issue goes away. /martin From nobody Sun Jul 8 09:26:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854D7130E7A for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:26:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LFiNwOa_e5Xf for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x235.google.com (mail-lf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3283D1277D2 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id y127-v6so13322539lfc.8 for ; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 09:26:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EGLWMOL0IhlyG//LZeNNwrM0ZUcMXz4HRtBJzo1TYiA=; b=dLi5Fau6bpkRcZrKSe6dcaLFodmKd8ox929caGX3A7P+v1j6Xvx5N0LVGUP4liMKFp D6/Lb46fkpZKBlc570vmvWJhjPvRPipr9QhFD1JtvixrGYQrJ3bH6NBN8pdd+WTIR+7Q PBAPdATVoxudz/Foh1W7Y9uclrlbzO9NbtJdpAwYyaOF3kL5xT3ynAcF+D4USqz9duzy IAyrGxI2cf2/a9UtwYhINNIcvruu5GcyCeWrjG24WoRuqrAuSJzCYOpi5aMR/2RZn1Mo yPf+n2BFxlKIlEpDhXs2oju0h7dKOGopACVaOx0UnvNFax17/BHowkVsEpGZR1DCNwpz hGEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EGLWMOL0IhlyG//LZeNNwrM0ZUcMXz4HRtBJzo1TYiA=; b=Qf1GufTygjP1uO5BcDKDyKC1LSCggCFJOIPrccYVxPxS/ObfLfJwXTSkRi3DrPxQEa UDiIsQEwo87RapUkBPYANGHnei+lyWMQDQo4i51ac6jXMiwrCDXduVdC540VHaVosMOU qKUV07ymf8ryDSrZ/aV2M8/aK9yRmzgP3VPrp31bFam0+qm8JNL09YJ0CdFEuob3DUHc mNGYU7BdlWcXI9/sTZx60ocC/Sh+r6RLcFDx723pggbL4dQUoyct2wahbNDCM2BUmt2s E2X3BGFjJfnrDuSlfih23IzBQYlEdDYyO3b13uctSQ33x0j9Dzo73MUhRa0/cXFCTLt3 vB7w== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2/CVWMz8Uqc9dmnJHeXChyUWi5lm7YgMR2H2fz/CjEqszG+FqM H+KPH7A/FfVKfFqeoYYjfco3jp02X8iEs+YYPRQy/A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdw85uLOzlrsO/Q1pEIvHMvdWHQtMy32IrH3COIwQaWAuhpSbQGBk1U+9Hu25hw1TzLDexAmJgWhWlN6tCQwKo= X-Received: by 2002:a19:204f:: with SMTP id g76-v6mr11778981lfg.66.1531067160359; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 09:26:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:25:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:25:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Bjorklund Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000388c7c05707f5ae3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 16:26:05 -0000 --000000000000388c7c05707f5ae3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 09:58:07AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > > Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > > You mean I think. > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not > > simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-) > > Well, the configured subscription is needed anyway in order for the > device to call home, so having the client create all configured > subscriptions as dynamic subscriptions as well doesn't seem quite > right. > > It is quite possible that multiple RPC operations are needed to get the session started, such as reading the YANG library, and that the client is not ready to receive notifications as soon as the session is started. So an operation may help. > But if the WG agrees that it is ok to send directly, > this issue goes away. > > Sitting idle is definitely OK. Accepting notifications right away is OK as an implementation feature outside the standard. > /martin > Andy --000000000000388c7c05707f5ae3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Martin Bjorklund <= mbj@tail-f.com><= /span> wrote:
Juergen Schoenwaelder <<= a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de">j.schoenwaelder@jaco= bs-university.de> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 09:58:07AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Andy Bierman <andy@yumaw= orks.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > You mean <start-all-configured-subscriptions> I t= hink.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
>
> If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not<= br> > simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-)

Well, the configured subscription is needed anyway in order for the
device to call home, so having the client create all configured
subscriptions as dynamic subscriptions as well doesn't seem quite
right.


It is quite possible that multiple RPC= operations are needed to get the session
started, such as readin= g the YANG library, and that the client
is not ready to receive n= otifications as soon as the session is started.
So an <activat= e-configured-sessions> operation may help.

=C2= =A0
But if the WG agrees that it is ok to send <notification> directly, this issue goes away.


Sitting idle is definitely OK.
Accepting n= otifications right away is OK as an implementation feature
outsid= e the standard.


/martin

Andy<= /div>

--000000000000388c7c05707f5ae3-- From nobody Sun Jul 8 10:54:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426D71310C2 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:54:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v7rfLgb4qPkx for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7501292AD for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id D598822FA4DF; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 19:53:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 19:53:59 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Martin Bjorklund Cc: andy@yumaworks.com, evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Martin Bjorklund , andy@yumaworks.com, evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:54:05 -0000 On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 06:05:52PM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > > > If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not > > simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-) > > Well, the configured subscription is needed anyway in order for the > device to call home, so having the client create all configured > subscriptions as dynamic subscriptions as well doesn't seem quite > right. To call home, all you need is call home configuration, not configured subscriptions. > But if the WG agrees that it is ok to send directly, > this issue goes away. I wonder what the use case is. I do understand that some people want transports where subcomponents of a device can send notifications as fast as possible without having to go through a server process. People who want this likely won't be using a NETCONF messaging transport. (Of course, there will be tons of questions related to congestion control and security for such a lightweight transport.) So what is the use case for configured subscriptions for a NETCONF transport? Simply an optimization so that the client does not have to send a subscribe request? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Sun Jul 8 11:27:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8971310CA for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 11:27:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vSOGoQd6avDC for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 11:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268FA1310C7 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 11:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-155-4-133-90.NA.cust.bahnhof.se [155.4.133.90]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C2F3F1AE02BD; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 20:27:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 20:27:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> To: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Cc: andy@yumaworks.com, evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 18:27:30 -0000 Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 06:05:52PM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > > > > > If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not > > > simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-) > > > > Well, the configured subscription is needed anyway in order for the > > device to call home, so having the client create all configured > > subscriptions as dynamic subscriptions as well doesn't seem quite > > right. > > To call home, all you need is call home configuration, not configured > subscriptions. Yes, but the configured subscription defines parameters (stream and filter) to trigger the call home action. /martin > > But if the WG agrees that it is ok to send directly, > > this issue goes away. > > I wonder what the use case is. I do understand that some people want > transports where subcomponents of a device can send notifications as > fast as possible without having to go through a server process. People > who want this likely won't be using a NETCONF messaging transport. (Of > course, there will be tons of questions related to congestion control > and security for such a lightweight transport.) > > So what is the use case for configured subscriptions for a NETCONF > transport? Simply an optimization so that the client does not have to > send a subscribe request? > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > From nobody Sun Jul 8 13:01:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C852130DE6 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 13:01:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CYwRhhi1G67v for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 13:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00208127332 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 13:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108161.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w68Ji0KA002129; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 12:47:31 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=wRSV9xSVuSYrCbdTptz/1d1EKpxEk6RvbmBCf7URHMk=; b=tlza4l2v+lJXFjsE9r4+sJv5Ytht8XPDJIfI592ey/cruYw+TIGx9awjdf8PXp/ge99w ES6yQzKvkEOKk4aII9DGxApeL+bVpSqHbGf6b+AL3jt3W2MHUXfs6/2PeOqi6IwdaDIG g6PLGcBEHY6+S0CJRbtpc5Z9Ac4c1xO6Yrcv7drWATnYwFgKaJrtHbtiLFFYx+by18NZ zyMdyx0rlFPAneqVBj9USoBvm7VRx1YFh8Fl1ahDzEItgSkG0mZWzJcadRBo08kgtoaZ JXOo49jd51PHZnwgr5CkSK/+L2BNDuQZds6Z4GSl2yCltcogotIw9nTHp8VmmVrlPpc+ 4g== Received: from nam02-cy1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-cys01nam02lp0052.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.52]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2k2vmvhv5j-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 08 Jul 2018 12:47:31 -0700 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.200.153) by BYAPR05MB4614.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.233.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.952.8; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 19:47:28 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc]) by BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc%4]) with mapi id 15.20.0952.008; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 19:47:28 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: Martin Bjorklund CC: "andy@yumaworks.com" , "evoit@cisco.com" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? Thread-Index: AQHUFdzgMgOM7HOBqEO/3ZzYZXUeNKSDugSAgAAU0gCAAASKgIAAWGoAgADOhYCAAH/pAA== Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 19:47:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5537D1FA-ADBE-4432-8FB7-8B2CAD5E9C9F@juniper.net> <20180708.100939.2159770155617819922.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: <20180708.100939.2159770155617819922.mbj@tail-f.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BYAPR05MB4614; 7:1tsp+jXnsoXEAGsSSG0N3qvYpmNOAmX0LamKOtY7fZj3z7PWGphvuCeCwhQ5YY0jSd4e5AsrT1FETLylyVP0DP+nTRfmKvhrhl40Sz65kTno1+6kRAarTIFlf3a09hkTaa3LB3lHrblaDDmD8npgDCWN2vLSKeHKL1OK9zUN/h566QFEXikdv6RdRIBzL88DAVBokgK94q1ALSoZkoaS/Vi4dBTHS5cM1YLVuRWAw16yDvRFrhMOGS+o7s4pLAr6 x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 61eda7c3-308e-49be-4e47-08d5e50ba337 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652040)(8989117)(5600053)(711020)(4534165)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990107)(48565401081)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:BYAPR05MB4614; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR05MB4614: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(158342451672863); x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(8211001083)(6040522)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(93006095)(93001095)(3231311)(944501410)(52105095)(3002001)(10201501046)(6055026)(149027)(150027)(6041310)(20161123560045)(20161123564045)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123562045)(20161123558120)(6072148)(201708071742011)(7699016); SRVR:BYAPR05MB4614; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BYAPR05MB4614; x-forefront-prvs: 0727122FC6 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(376002)(136003)(346002)(396003)(39860400002)(366004)(199004)(189003)(6246003)(6486002)(446003)(2906002)(6512007)(11346002)(53936002)(66066001)(76176011)(86362001)(6916009)(6436002)(81156014)(14454004)(8676002)(81166006)(97736004)(36756003)(486006)(316002)(82746002)(2616005)(476003)(4326008)(478600001)(25786009)(83716003)(229853002)(99286004)(305945005)(93886005)(186003)(6116002)(14444005)(33656002)(105586002)(3846002)(68736007)(7736002)(102836004)(2900100001)(5660300001)(26005)(54906003)(58126008)(5250100002)(6506007)(256004)(106356001)(8936002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BYAPR05MB4614; H:BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: FM6iz4niS66cbLXQCZAKxIQB6NEYfZg9U9MQj58XNWtmhnL3JmpLsFB+K5iahyMHXGeM5gDQx0nTWCdnB+WOxu4UR6tH5lI0XikVLBEOepndIdoMebp4giIKn9AG7IKdL/EieXoUDYObRQENU5O50DP0v9pHymxkJjQvI+JlM2uitUKdYfwOICP3jEWFOJedF5aHqm2XijoS2LK3SLy0vj3GcqejymwT+6wZYptcxpl0HVvhjO5FfX/VgvwPeLHpdRKhEXuJTDrAvfQSYCw3nWHEe91edAPA40fY6/2+ixlUo0flk65QlVf4QOTFXlfwX/faMFvKfkBygcVUByVGqNs2LkGT2E+jKTVmD9LinmM= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <7E240206B6DB0A4C9BA199B878559BE3@namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 61eda7c3-308e-49be-4e47-08d5e50ba337 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Jul 2018 19:47:28.7624 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB4614 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-08_12:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=875 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807080238 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 20:01:35 -0000 DQoNCj4gSG93IGFib3V0IHByaW9yaXRpemluZyB0aGUgKmNvbmYte2NsaWVudCxzZXJ2ZXJ9IG1v ZGVscyBzbyB0aGF0IA0KPiB0aGUgbmV0Y29uZi1ub3RpZiBkcmFmdCBjYW4gdXNlIHRoZW0sIHNv IHRoYXQgd2UgZG8gZ2V0IGEgc3RhbmRhcmQNCj4gc29sdXRpb24gbm93PyAgIE9yIGRvIHdlIHRo aW5rIHRoYXQgdGhlc2UgbW9kZWxzIGFyZSBzdGlsbCBmYXINCj4gYmVoaW5kPw0KDQpOb3QgYmVo aW5kIGJ5IG11Y2guICBJZiBmb2xrcyBnaXZlIHRob3NlIGRyYWZ0cyBhdHRlbnRpb24sIHRoZXkN CmNvdWxkIGJlIGRvbmUgaW4gYSBmZXcgbW9udGhzLCB3aGljaCBtaWdodCBiZSBva2F5IGhlcmUu DQoNCkZXSVcsIHRoZSAidXBkYXRlIHRvIGNsaWVudC9zZXJ2ZXIgZHJhZnRzIiBhbmQgIm1hbmRh dG9yeSBsb2NhbA0KY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiBpbiBrZXlzdG9yZSBncm91cGluZ3MiIHRocmVhZHMg YXJlIHBlbmRpbmcgcmVzcG9uc2VzLiANCg0KS2VudCAvLyBjb250cmlidXRvcg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Sun Jul 8 13:19:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340A1130E6C for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 13:19:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z0xvKlyDwLhf for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 13:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62CB4130E66 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 13:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108156.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w68KJN2N022087; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 13:19:23 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=16SAB6jJJ35VIo5lOR4wIXMidDwQlhCuMjcpWhycZ4g=; b=TEIC4g6ANfUwTnDWA3Ze4LSZSREANk4jJyz1XrwI1WodEIrng+4WiGStT7mIipj6ItEc YmeEIh026Pam7f78CpUior5VfXrLhg2c+F9hY87qqoxIXIobc7vtmCljOJcYuDHWrqm3 MXbIQqhc/PQRrgiNoWcWkvtuWiJZjuMRLD/CfWndw/S+tWN8gdoFUE422a9CyG8Foby4 PwUffKBz6/KcJLt+5edjLMqorfH2hUdwAGYaauY7P/ZX521tMTH1v6DMS9q1Wm0cH2oq svUSKUnqoYCzwD5+8jVzJDPCLMrXt6XfhDYuoACF2hR8mJS7eAIl56sxU2ao37unjt3y PA== Received: from nam02-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam02lp0088.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.88]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2k2vhk9wj1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:19:23 -0700 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.200.153) by BYAPR05MB4229.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.200.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.952.8; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 20:19:20 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc]) by BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc%4]) with mapi id 15.20.0952.008; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 20:19:20 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: Martin Bjorklund , "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? 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X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 20:19:28 -0000 DQoNCj4gPiA+ID4gSWYgeW91IGRvIHRoaXMsIHdoeSBkb2VzIHRoZSBjbGllbnQsIGFmdGVyIHJl Y2VpdmluZyBhIGNhbGwgaG9tZSwgbm90DQo+ID4gPiA+IHNpbXBseSBjcmVhdGUgZHluYW1pYyBz dWJzY3JpcHRpb25zPyA7LSkNCj4gPiA+IA0KPiA+ID4gV2VsbCwgdGhlIGNvbmZpZ3VyZWQgc3Vi c2NyaXB0aW9uIGlzIG5lZWRlZCBhbnl3YXkgaW4gb3JkZXIgZm9yIHRoZQ0KPiA+ID4gZGV2aWNl IHRvIGNhbGwgaG9tZSwgc28gaGF2aW5nIHRoZSBjbGllbnQgY3JlYXRlIGFsbCBjb25maWd1cmVk DQo+ID4gPiBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIGFzIGR5bmFtaWMgc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9ucyBhcyB3ZWxsIGRv ZXNuJ3Qgc2VlbSBxdWl0ZQ0KPiA+ID4gcmlnaHQuDQo+ID4gDQo+ID4gVG8gY2FsbCBob21lLCBh bGwgeW91IG5lZWQgaXMgY2FsbCBob21lIGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24sIG5vdCBjb25maWd1cmVkDQo+ ID4gc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9ucy4NCj4NCj4gWWVzLCBidXQgdGhlIGNvbmZpZ3VyZWQgc3Vic2NyaXB0 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Schoenwaelder , Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? Thread-Index: AQHUFdzoQxUMgGR6+EyEsUfGkX4eo6SD/RKAgABHKwCAAA3RgIAA6BaAgAAi8ACAAGVWAIAABZ+AgABuS9A= Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 03:05:08 +0000 Message-ID: <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67XCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? 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HTTP; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 20:52:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 20:52:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Martin Bjorklund , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a7f3c4057088ef0f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 03:52:08 -0000 --000000000000a7f3c4057088ef0f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman, July 8, 2018 12:26 PM > > On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 09:58:07AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > > Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > > You mean I think. > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not > > simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-) > > Well, the configured subscription is needed anyway in order for the > device to call home, so having the client create all configured > subscriptions as dynamic subscriptions as well doesn't seem quite > right. > > > > It is quite possible that multiple RPC operations are needed to get the > session > > started, such as reading the YANG library, and that the client > > is not ready to receive notifications as soon as the session is started. > > So an operation may help. > > > > > > But if the WG agrees that it is ok to send directly, > this issue goes away. > > > > Sitting idle is definitely OK. > > Accepting notifications right away is OK as an implementation feature > > outside the standard. > > > > If the NETCONF-Notif says that the NETCONF client for a configured > subscription must be able to handle accepting notifications right away, do > you see any standardization issue with this behavior in this context? > > NETCONF-Notif can make that requirement, but the Notif-Server MUST support regular operations on the session, because CallHome allows a client to do that. Eric > > > /martin > > > > Andy > > > Andy --000000000000a7f3c4057088ef0f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <= ;evoit@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:

Hi Andy,

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman, July 8, 2018 12:= 26 PM

On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Martin Bjorklund <= ;mbj@tail-f.com>= wrote:

Juergen Schoenwaelder= <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 09:58:07AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > You mean <start-all-configured-subscriptions> I t= hink.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
>
> If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not<= br> > simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-)

Well, the configured subscription is needed anyway in order for the
device to call home, so having the client create all configured
subscriptions as dynamic subscriptions as well doesn't seem quite
right.

=C2=A0

It is quite possible that multiple RPC operations ar= e needed to get the session

started, such as reading the YANG library, and that = the client

is not ready to receive notifications as soon as the= session is started.

So an <activate-configured-sessions> operation= may help.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But if the WG agrees = that it is ok to send <notification> directly,
this issue goes away.

=C2=A0

Sitting idle is definitely OK.

Accepting notifications right away is OK as an imple= mentation feature

outside the standard.

=C2=A0

<Eric> If the NETCONF-Notif say= s that the NETCONF client for a configured subscription must be able to han= dle accepting notifications right away, do you see any standardization issue with this behavior in this context?

=

NETCONF-Notif can make that requirement, but = the Notif-Server MUST support regular
operations on the session, = because CallHome allows a client to do that.


<= /div>

Eric


/martin=

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0



Andy
=C2=A0

--000000000000a7f3c4057088ef0f-- From nobody Sun Jul 8 21:17:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4EC0130F05 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 21:17:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ROYSU7xjHVDt for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 21:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8563B130F01 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 21:17:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7680; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531109826; x=1532319426; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=NdO385r8qqaCknWE2/6bBnwXiwolJR+Do3n60Cjy3LA=; b=EC8Avf/aINgiLRDqLXOt5jkPDbFc4/zEMTSlRilAanA0blzddXgl9vLn w/k2IVs2hyTXRrj2vCubK+M8bMH5ONYjSmT7+PZwpwlBOm5FtW1N2XKI7 Fb1B20F40rn5eQoQvxZMOJExX+S6QbOmmmJJxT4KpE0KQn6D1XBHmYX8/ Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C1AQBL4UJb/4ENJK1SAQkZAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBBwEBAQEBg0lifygKmCiCB5UyFIFmCxgLhANGAoItITYWAQIBAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQJtHAyFNgEBAQECAQEBOC0HCwULAgEIDgcDDREQJwslAgQOBQiDGYF3CA+?= =?us-ascii?q?rG4hGgTUFh1eBF4FWP4NwLoMYAQEBAYEzAQQGAQEGSoUkAplPCQKPGo1lkWk?= =?us-ascii?q?CERMBgSQkAi+BUnAVO4JpgiQXiFmFPm8BjQcBDhcDgQWBGgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,328,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="140273106" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 09 Jul 2018 04:17:05 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w694H5ZJ028429 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 9 Jul 2018 04:17:05 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 00:17:04 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 00:17:04 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Martin Bjorklund CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? Thread-Index: AQHUFzuxhQunRwlbK0C4UmqBO4djAg== Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 04:17:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <04c12295eafa4ae38d240817aefb792f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180708.103708.568656124603935473.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: <20180708.103708.568656124603935473.mbj@tail-f.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 04:17:09 -0000 > From: Martin Bjorklund, July 8, 2018 4:37 AM >=20 > "Eric Voit \(evoit\)" wrote: > > > From: Kent Watsen, July 6, 2018 6:34 PM >=20 > [...] >=20 > > > >> Regarding the 4th > > > >> bullet point following the first paragraph, I think that it is > > > >> sufficient to just identify that a suitable base identity must > > > >> be returned (i.e., lose the refs to Sections 2.4.6 and A.1). > > > > > > > > That is the way I initially had it. Martin requested that these > > > > be made explicit during his review. > > > > > > I don't agree. YP is just one of potentially many (I exaggerate) > > > layers on top of SN. >=20 > If you want to keep this error-app-tag string (I don't think it is necess= ary, since > the identity is also sent in within the ),=20 For NETCONF transport, the is populated only when hints are se= nt. For more on this, there is history in our December & January thread to= morph the previous transport protocol agnostic error structures into somet= hing that more closely matched embedded NETCONF implementations. E.g., =20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg13954.html https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg13834.html=20 It is true that we could changes things and always send the . = But what we talked about then works fine. I don't see what benefit a chan= ge buys us. > then I think the document > needs to clearly specify which identity to use for the different errors. >=20 > I agree with Kent that the reference to YANG push is not needed here, and > should be removed. Without explicitly what RPCs are permitted to have error info carried, any = identity could be allowed to populate the error-app-tag or error-info. I d= on't think this is what we want. We all know that subscribed notifications has four RPCs which have error id= entities which need to be passed back. But it is also true that yang-push = has the resynch-subscription RPC. This RPC two possible error identities w= hich need to be passed back: (1) : (2) : Without the linkage to yang-push in this section, this connection is not ma= de anywhere in the documents. > I do think the reference to SN is needed, and I think the > explicit list of rpcs and base identities help. >=20 > Kent, do you think that this list is somehow incorrect or misleading? >=20 > > What other layer are you expecting? >=20 > Who knows? I agree w/ Kent; it is a matter of getting the design right, = even if > we don't see more layers at the moment. Other layers can easily be added. New RPCs can easily bring along their er= ror identities. How this can be done is demonstrated in yang-push. > > > We need to ensure the language allows for other layers to be defined > > > in the future. I imagine that there should be nothing special about > > > YP as far as the notif drafts go. > > > > This does not precludes additional layers for being placed. If an > implementation doesn't need an RPC, it can safely ignore the identity. > > > > In the end, when the WG requested that we inherit embedded NETCONF and > > RESTCONF error processing mechanisms, and this drove to the explicit > > mappings. > > > > > >> The 2nd paragraph seems to be defining a non-standard way to > > > >> encode identities (red flag). > > > > > > > > This also was at Martin's request. It is not non-standard as it > > > > simply describes the encoding of an error string. > > > > > > I see that error-app-tag is defined in RFC 6241 as a string, so > > > maybe there is a basis for this, but note that identities are > > > encoded differently for XML and JSON. It seems like this draft > > > could declare that the value must conform to type "identity" > > > and then leverage existing encoding-specific rules. What did Martin > > > say? > > > > Per: > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14345.html > > > > "I think you should decide on one mechanism, and use it in both > > drafts (specifically, the error-app-tag handling. BTW, *if* you > > decide to keep it, you need to clarify what "a string that > > corresponds to" means. Maybe use the JSON encoding of identities in > > this case (:))." > > > > This defined encoding works, and can be placed the same way into differ= ent > types of error mechanisms. >=20 > Note my *if* above. If we simply don't specify anything for the error-ap= p-tag, > both these issues are solved. True. But per earlier threads, what is proposed works. And I think it a n= ice convention to only send error-info just when we are providing hints bac= k. Eric > /martin >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > > >> Section 10: the 1st paragraph is not a security consideration > > > >> (move to Section 5?). > > > > > > > > Moved into 5.2. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > >> The 2nd paragraph articulates a valid concern, but it seems to > > > >> apply to all transports (although missing in the restconf-notif > > > >> draft) and so should be moved to the SN draft? > > > > > > > > As the mechanism for mitigating certain DDoS vectors is transport > > > > specific, the transport drafts seemed a better place. > > > > > > The problem statement (1st sentence) is generic and should be moved > > > to the SN draft. > > > > Section 10, paragraph 2, sentence #1 is context to set up the requireme= nts in > sentence 2 & 3. So I replicated a NETCONF independent statement in SN: > > > > " For dynamic subscriptions, implementations need to protect against > malicious or buggy subscribers which may send a large number "establish- > subscription" requests, thereby using up system resources. To cover this > possibility operators SHOULD monitor for such cases and, if discovered, t= ake > remedial action to limit the resources used, such as suspending or termin= ating > a subset of the subscriptions or, if the underlying transport is session = based, > terminate the underlying transport session." > > > > > How to handle the issue in a generic way, if possible, should also > > > be in the SN draft. Here, the 2nd sentence seems transport-specific > > > and the 3rd transport- independent. However, I think that the 2nd > > > or 3rd sentences could be stated better (and more generically) in > > > the SN draft, something like this: > > > > > > Operators SHOULD monitor for such cases and, if discovered, > > > take remedial action to limit the resources used, such as > > > suspending or terminating a subset of the subscriptions or, > > > if the underlying transport is session based, terminate the > > > underlying transport session. > > > > > > > > > > If you are good with it staying as a transport mechanism, I will > > > > add corresponding text to RESTCONF-Notif. > > > > > > I prefer a generic Security Consideration in the SN draft. > > > > Hopefully the text above gets us there. > > > > Eric > > > > > >> The 3rd paragraph could be removed, since it > > > >> isn't for dynamic subscriptions. > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf From nobody Sun Jul 8 21:17:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55BC130F01 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 21:17:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jp7j5vFXokSU for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 21:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC927130F02 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 21:17:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=18000; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531109826; x=1532319426; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=TqnGPSgMRcZ/3Bap1W/bezZB31DbFIL6yKQ6/dRlkCo=; b=HHwsRjl+yDUxR2jk4Ik0OBmLQlFvCKSRMav31NslUPMcpR1tbC52zFo9 hL2Y+wIjb+5W4jFEhJZ1AFwswWnIBA5uEqZhG/laryilTRokN0BQlnUQp JW9jjJ25pu9ZHOTT4IJoXFkQLjsMVGwMP1K+IiA70YGxvkoIiOJ7RP30g 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CoAAAa4UJb/5NdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYJTTCpifygKg3CIBIw0ggeQJIUOgXoLhGwCF4IWITQYAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQIBAQJtKIU2AQEBAQMjCkwQAgEIEAUDDRoDAgICMBQRAgQOBQiCTUyBG2S?= =?us-ascii?q?pDYIciEaBOohugVY/gQ+CYS6EZCQogkuCVQKRaodlCQKIaoYwjWWRaQIRFIE?= =?us-ascii?q?kHTiBUnAVgySQUQFvjQgFgSmBGgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,328,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="139706514" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 09 Jul 2018 04:17:06 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (xch-rtp-015.cisco.com [64.101.220.155]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w694H5GZ031602 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 9 Jul 2018 04:17:06 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 00:17:05 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 00:17:05 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Andy Bierman CC: Martin Bjorklund , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? Thread-Index: AQHUFdzoQxUMgGR6+EyEsUfGkX4eo6SD/RKAgABHKwCAAA3RgIAA6BaAgAAi8ACAAGVWAIAABZ+AgABuS9CAAFFigP//wvaA Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 04:17:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_dd176f76da934d01962768071f9ddb5fXCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? 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--_000_dd176f76da934d01962768071f9ddb5fXCHRTP013ciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 04:19:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D37130E03 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 04:19:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9FoVtdbZeXkg for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 04:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 311E912D7F8 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 04:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4C01134EB0765; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 12:19:41 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 12:19:42 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.13]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 19:19:30 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Kent Watsen , Martin Bjorklund , "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? Thread-Index: AQHUFdzs6pUMltb0wkuG62iYXwjIv6SDM+iAgABHKgCAAA3RgIAA6BaAgAAi8ACAAGVXAIAAHjWAgAAJWoCAAB9CAIABgKFw Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 11:19:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.244] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 11:19:49 -0000 LS0tLS3Tyrz+1K28/i0tLS0tDQq3orz+yMs6IE5ldGNvbmYgW21haWx0bzpuZXRjb25mLWJvdW5j ZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddILT6se0gS2VudCBXYXRzZW4NCreiy83KsbzkOiAyMDE4xOo31MI5yNUgNDox OQ0KytW8/sjLOiBNYXJ0aW4gQmpvcmtsdW5kOyBqLnNjaG9lbndhZWxkZXJAamFjb2JzLXVuaXZl cnNpdHkuZGUNCrOty806IG5ldGNvbmZAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCtb3zOI6IFJlOiBbTmV0Y29uZl0gQW55 b25lIHdhbnQganVzdCBDb25maWd1cmVkIFN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbnM/DQoNCg0KDQo+ID4gPiA+IElm IHlvdSBkbyB0aGlzLCB3aHkgZG9lcyB0aGUgY2xpZW50LCBhZnRlciByZWNlaXZpbmcgYSBjYWxs IA0KPiA+ID4gPiBob21lLCBub3Qgc2ltcGx5IGNyZWF0ZSBkeW5hbWljIHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbnM/ IDstKQ0KPiA+ID4gDQo+ID4gPiBXZWxsLCB0aGUgY29uZmlndXJlZCBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb24gaXMg bmVlZGVkIGFueXdheSBpbiBvcmRlciBmb3IgDQo+ID4gPiB0aGUgZGV2aWNlIHRvIGNhbGwgaG9t ZSwgc28gaGF2aW5nIHRoZSBjbGllbnQgY3JlYXRlIGFsbCANCj4gPiA+IGNvbmZpZ3VyZWQgc3Vi c2NyaXB0aW9ucyBhcyBkeW5hbWljIHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbnMgYXMgd2VsbCBkb2Vzbid0IA0KPiA+ ID4gc2VlbSBxdWl0ZSByaWdodC4NCj4gPiANCj4gPiBUbyBjYWxsIGhvbWUsIGFsbCB5b3UgbmVl ZCBpcyBjYWxsIGhvbWUgY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiwgbm90IA0KPiA+IGNvbmZpZ3VyZWQgc3Vic2Ny aXB0aW9ucy4NCj4NCj4gWWVzLCBidXQgdGhlIGNvbmZpZ3VyZWQgc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uIGRlZmlu ZXMgcGFyYW1ldGVycyAoc3RyZWFtIGFuZA0KPiBmaWx0ZXIpIHRvIHRyaWdnZXIgdGhlIGNhbGwg aG9tZSBhY3Rpb24uDQoNCkkgdGhpbmsgSnVlcmdlbidzIGlkZWEgaXMgdG8ganVzdCBjb25maWd1 cmUgL25ldGNvbmYtc2VydmVyL2NhbGwtaG9tZS8gbmV0Y29uZi1jbGllbnQgaW5zdGFuY2VzLCBh bmQgZm9yIHRob3NlIGluc3RhbmNlcyB0aGF0IGFyZSBmb3Igbm90aWZpY2F0aW9ucywgdGhlIGNs aWVudCBjYW4gZG8gYSBkeW5hbWljIHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbjsgIG5vIG5lZWQgdG8gY29uZmlndXJl IGFueXRoaW5nIHVuZGVyIHRoZSAvc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9ucy9zdWJzY3JpcHRpb24vcmVjZWl2ZXJz Li4uDQoNCltRaW5dOiBGb3JnZXQgdGhlIGhpc3Rvcnkgb2YgcmVtb3ZpbmcgYWRkcmVzcyBhbmQg cG9ydCB1bmRlciB0aGUgL3N1YnNjcmlwdGlvbnMvc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uL3JlY2VpdmVycywgd2hh dCdzIHRoZSByZWFsIGNvbmNlcm4gZm9yIHRoaXM/DQpUbyBzdXBwb3J0IGNhbGwgaG9tZSwgd2hh dCBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIHBhcmFtZXRlcnMgYXJlIGJlc2lkZXMgYWRkcmVzcyBhbmQgcG9ydD8NCg0K QW5vdGhlciBpZGVhIGlzIHRvIGhhdmUgYSBzZXBhcmF0ZSBub3RpZmljYXRpb25zLXNwZWNpZmlj IGxpc3Qgb2YgY2FsbC1ob21lIGNsaWVudHMsIHdoaWNoIG1pZ2h0IGJlIGRlZmluZWQgYXMgTVVT VCBuZWVkaW5nIHRvIGFkdmVydGlzZSBhIG5ldyBjYXBhYmlsaXR5IGluZGljYXRpbmcgdGhhdCB0 aGUgZmxvdyBvZiA8bm90aWZpY2F0aW9ucz4gY2FuIG9jY3VyIGltbWVkaWF0ZWx5Og0KDQogIG1v ZHVsZSBpZXRmLW5ldGNvbmYtbm90aWZpY2F0aW9ucyB7DQogICAgcHJlZml4IG5uOw0KICAgIGlt cG9ydCBpZXRmLW5ldGNvbmYtc2VydmVyIHsgcHJlZml4IG5jczsgfQ0KICAgIGltcG9ydCBpZXRm LXN1YnNjcmliZWQtbm90aWZpY2F0aW9ucyB7IHByZWZpeCBzbjsgfQ0KDQogICAgLy8gZGVmaW5l IGEgKmxvY2FsKiBuZXRjb25mLXNlcnZlciBpbnN0YW5jZQ0KICAgIGNvbnRhaW5lciAibmV0Y29u Zi1zZXJ2ZXIiIHsNCiAgICAgIHVzZXMgIm5jczpuZXRjb25mLXNlcnZlci1ncm91cGluZyIgew0K ICAgICAgICAvLyBwcnVuZSBvdXQgdGhlICJsaXN0ZW4iIHN1YnRyZWUNCiAgICAgICAgcmVmaW5l ICJsaXN0ZW4iIHsNCiAgICAgICAgICB3aGVuICJmYWxzZSgpIjsNCiAgICAgICAgfQ0KICAgICAg fQ0KICAgIH0NCg0KICAgIC8vIGFkZCBsZWFmcmVmIHRvIGFib3ZlIGxvY2FsbHktY29uZmlndXJl ZCBjYWxsLWhvbWUgaW5zdGFuY2VzDQogICAgYXVnbWVudCAiL3NuOnN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbnMvc246 c3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uL3NuOnJlY2VpdmVycy9zbjpyZWNlaXZlciIgew0KICAgICAgbGVhZiBuZXRj b25mLWVuZHBvaW50IHsNCiAgICAgICAgdHlwZSBsZWFmcmVmIHsNCiAgICAgICAgICBwYXRoICIv bm46bmV0Y29uZi1zZXJ2ZXIvbm46Y2FsbC1ob21lL25uOm5ldGNvbmYtY2xpZW50L25uOm5hbWUi Ow0KICAgICAgICB9DQogICAgICB9DQogICAgfQ0KICB9DQoNCltRaW5dOiBEb2VzIHRoaXMgbmV3 IHByb3Bvc2FsIGhhcyBpbXBhY3Qgb24gaWV0Zi1uZXRjb25mLW5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbnMgZGVmaW5l ZCBpbiBSRkM2NDcwPw0KSXQgbG9va3MgbmV0Y25mLWVuZHBvaW50IGlzIG5vdCBkZWZpbmVkIGFz IHBhcnQgb2YgYmFzZSBldmVudCBub3RpZmljYXRpb24uDQoNCktlbnQgLy8gY29udHJpYnV0b3IN Cg0KDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpO ZXRjb25mIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KTmV0Y29uZkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9uZXRjb25mDQo= From nobody Mon Jul 9 05:13:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 322EB124C04 for ; 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Efficiency is mostly interesting for yang-push data and not so much for <edit-config>  <edit-data> <get-config> <get-data>.
However we are more interested in dynamic-subscriptions then in configured subscriptions.
Eegards Balazs


On 7/5/2018 7:06 PM, Kent Watsen wrote:

 

> When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in improving

> the efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV.

 

I agree that there is little appetite to improve the efficiency of configuration-oriented

workflows.   Monitoring, for which notifications supports in a big way, have a strong

push for efficiency.  I think the primary question is if this efficiency must be realizable

for NC/RC based subscriptions, or if the efficiency can come from the use of more

suitable transports (e.g., gRPC), that can be defined by future "notif" drafts?

 

If we were only interested in such efficiency for configured subscriptions, then I think

a "notif" draft to define the transport would be relatively easy.   If such efficiency is

also needed for dynamic subscriptions, then it seems like something along the lines

of what binary-encoding draft proposes might be needed.

 

Is there a need for efficiency for any other workflow?   What about for RPCs that are

executed often (e.g., polling) or return very large responses?   Does we care about

making these use cases more efficient too, or are we primarily only interested in

just making notifications efficient?

 

Kent

 

 

 

On 7/5/18, 12:07 PM, "Netconf on behalf of Andy Bierman" <netconf-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:

 

Hi,

 

I think the first-order issue is for the WG to decide if there is a problem to be

solved by this WG, and if so, what is the problem scope.

 

Details like the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply, etc do not really impact that decision.

 

When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in improving the

efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV.

 

 

I think this draft should focus on the protocol mechanisms and not define

any media types. Definitions of GPB and other formats are not trivial and need

their own RFCs.

 

 

Andy

 

 

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello,
Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary encoding be interesting?

Chapter 2)

- A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be good. What is the top XML element that will be encoded? <rpc>, <RPC-reply>, <RPC-error>, <notification> ? Just referencing a figure in another draft is not enough.

- SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for the XML encoding? Is that always implicit? State it.

4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here?

I would think that all encodings need some official reference, defining how they are used with YANG: RFC, web link

Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere or do we need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case.

regards Balazs





--
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs..Lengyel@ericsson.com

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

 


-- 
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com
From nobody Mon Jul 9 07:31:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE68130E2F for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 07:31:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MRycqlvNpJMV for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 07:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (trail.lhotka.name [77.48.224.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D03D2130FF5 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 07:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix, from userid 109) id D5DDC18202E0; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:49:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [195.113.220.121]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 423B718202DD for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:49:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: netconf@ietf.org Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 09:44:55 +0200 Message-ID: <87lgakam4o.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] [Ladislav Lhotka] IETF 102 presentation request X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 14:31:43 -0000 Hi, I sent in the following presentation request but now I see that I didn't get a session slot. So I am wondering - what are the criteria for selecting non-chartered items? Thanks, Lada -------------------- Start of forwarded message -------------------- From: Ladislav Lhotka Subject: IETF 102 presentation request Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 08:40:29 +0200 Hi, =C3=8D'd like to present my draft: - RESTCONF with Transactions (draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00) - presenter: Ladislav Lhotka - time slot: 10-15 minutes Thanks, Lada --=20 Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 -------------------- End of forwarded message -------------------- --=20 Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Mon Jul 9 09:13:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA25130E48 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:13:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FywQbItim0hD for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A986130E31 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id q127-v6so13906211ljq.11 for ; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 09:13:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=yseYfcbpRxKABsTbvHqQ+sLk8q5TPQuD9c5mdReSJ80=; b=U2AKOWZtgij4v92mTGjB10S1Zdq1gMjNQWlAPRAbskwSL3M9DlK1BliP2p27rd8dcn c/g/kTs/qQZhULGKc8+jI1CglB/FYhTXnvNPcnNxQKSYH1Pd71pyzS35508eWV1tw1T9 fMC5BTi/gqNnh+HUU7veDVV80wg3/DRZf38YCMkyfIMN15FIOXA6DLlsuTLmCgwlxvxy fuqIHvAymYFz222lRF/01mEIJSEaVF9fKvIwfVFkuXPFqfMwgwg3pW/4mhdx3c9guZ+v /DQzF2MkOTgXcauYRN6SZPYdWHfS8fSAg1is/PGR+/BXUfjy7s10JUdVatvRSszHS9Ki fBkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=yseYfcbpRxKABsTbvHqQ+sLk8q5TPQuD9c5mdReSJ80=; b=ZDfIvowZYm3r0fec8shw6eXt/MqWqahEjLeogscHZTCPVK7OldocEukaEpqmNud7lQ txckMz6Qng8hSlRGrF0erNxblHqKd5kyi9VJBtfqKQy7RcgP5DCjFqrnrQHjogsljoRh 9gmwpyCxJXs7vcs1+rEJLduY+8UxCERNS7N5TQaokvPWKrpc4dnpEXdHpP+5qHe0Rq7D bdBvPvMGzUOk3RXwbvgMeR3STPQ63tepTKQ9NuOgTzx3Illrv4VLIMjWcLHSAFb4Kxt3 Bp/LE6rzRwTqVikN5qanigULO8mGfEHS2imqUjZHWo16Ajvp6dNmHCxtTrNC2NSPs2LZ INXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHzUNx0dR3KOPUnl5VUe+C8PPiOn25aXuY242xhmJ2sCAHrQA4u M/3xQKnxuMWG8cMSt44rmKqVo97rY+J/ic1VbVu+H00w X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfc24u2mbEtPqNKTiLfBr+5+mRq+/NqFl3qxi+yE4EytxfQTmYBUhQnw4p+sUtWYNoXZ4rkiCy/Ij/zzXs6+Tk= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3611:: with SMTP id d17-v6mr4691055lja.31.1531152777855; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 09:12:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:12:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:12:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006be12f05709349bd" Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] subscription-id management across applications X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 16:13:02 -0000 --0000000000006be12f05709349bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, The configured subscriptions use a uint32 subscription-id. There is text in 5.2 about splitting the range for dynamic and configured subscriptions: To support deployments including both configured and dynamic subscriptions, it is recommended to split subscription identifiers into static and dynamic halves. That way it eliminates the possibility of collisions if the configured subscriptions attempt to set a subscription-id which might have already been dynamically allocated. A best practice is to use lower half the "identifier" object's integer space when that "identifier" is assigned by an external entity (such as with a configured subscription). This leaves the upper half of subscription identifiers available to be dynamically assigned by the publisher. The draft does not say anything about how multiple independent applications pick uint32 values that are not likely to collide with other applications. Since configured subscriptions are expected to be usable by the client the instant the NETCONF session is active, the app must be fairly sure the hard-coded subscription-id values are really set correctly, and not the IDs picked (and overwritten) by another application. Andy --0000000000006be12f05709349bd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

The configured subscriptions use a = uint32 subscription-id.
There is text in 5.2 about splitting the = range for dynamic and configured subscriptions:

To support deployments= including both configured and dynamic subscriptions, it is recommended to split subscription identifiers into static and dynamic halves. That way it eliminates the possibility of collisions if the configured subscriptions attempt to set a subscription-id which might have already been dynamically allocated. A best practice is to use lower half the "identifier&qu= ot; object's integer space when that "identifier" is assigned = by an external entity (such as with a configured subscription). This leaves the upper half of subscription identifiers available to be dynamically assigned by the publisher.

The draft does not say anything about how= multiple independent applications
pick uint32 values that are no= t likely to collide with other applications.

Since= configured subscriptions are expected to be usable by the client
the instant the NETCONF session is active, the app must be fairly sure
the hard-coded subscription-id values are really set correctly, and = not
the IDs picked (and overwritten) by another application.


Andy


--0000000000006be12f05709349bd-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 09:31:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A41130E55 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y-22gT69ZDHh for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6456130E61 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1124A22FD16A; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:31:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:31:44 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Andy Bierman Cc: Netconf Message-ID: <20180709163144.x3ltgh7spzbz26km@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Andy Bierman , Netconf References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] subscription-id management across applications X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 16:31:48 -0000 On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 09:12:57AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > Hi, > > The configured subscriptions use a uint32 subscription-id. > There is text in 5.2 about splitting the range for dynamic and configured > subscriptions: > > To support deployments including both configured and dynamic > subscriptions, it is recommended to split subscription identifiers > into static and dynamic halves. That way it eliminates the > possibility of collisions if the configured subscriptions attempt to > set a subscription-id which might have already been dynamically > allocated. A best practice is to use lower half the "identifier" > object's integer space when that "identifier" is assigned by an > external entity (such as with a configured subscription). This > leaves the upper half of subscription identifiers available to be > dynamically assigned by the publisher. Why would a server accept a dynamic subscription that clashes with a configured subscription? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Jul 9 09:34:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B85BF130E55 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:34:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1gCWxyNvzfK9 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22c.google.com (mail-lf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77666130E2A for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id y200-v6so15768693lfd.7 for ; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 09:34:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=SpnttwKESDcPnHngw1lbdlXf9e1uIBqlzSz/Y4tZL+w=; b=kb2VWgq7+8ZN+efgI7sHF0yUpJv6h9LQeR2Tva7I04EyasEkFYnMVrwb276ipGORlK BBYHA9/J5WiM5RTqaQ5xz4gsCq9KCjP36VATpTIHzwUl/NlVHXrzQLAw4oUCUcv1giEd dy4oSXIjlmn7an6WeUEXjH7X4mmkunxhwy1ykVeSi+w26nvayMo++8VF9sEQK07wqyRs rzZKNFl/26T0tzbu9tLb4zleNRqmSJWMzHJPMda67DMfo5gDrCiba5rKWHibq8wmnGrb iv3Z4evY6TxqDtVlGgwvGnZI4WxPPNHLhav+Lq07ZCt5bzJsal5lLWXxCwfbDqMK4Dlh EqAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=SpnttwKESDcPnHngw1lbdlXf9e1uIBqlzSz/Y4tZL+w=; b=NOUFN12KGnUiPMH5hI2FeT7u4Dv7fqMS9hbCIQ9KQbRTKJdnIBWNHbgj7AQLVPjuCa xO6E7uQHgRKRI82Hmv8t+T0PTl6b849Vzud78UNK4wI+0t2F0qxRjAt5mnsKiX+Zaor1 5dJ2lZgnwjUySRAXheKbKBoeLk7ns9q3Z1hYZ2pKsNzpLeSS6bQa97/zajaKSwwgqs86 PJbApx9kbVhfb2LyndeYB/ZcDsEQ2gsAdBnWYDshK5GV5ek24YpFqjWCfLOtjqmdKrxq nI1MPLFX5/jSo5GhomlA4fa+r9UhAJ+xpOLMpr9k5V3lradGqcs+MOyfWG09uLfsx3f4 SA7g== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2Sq/Y0e4ilp3VtqRnPuoCxtTaA0xkTpYiElN4ty/10VJiBC94Z 0BrjtumrUZxF7DJg3MlLNWswErP/v6hDFUiKIRAt2Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcV9i1Avg4IU+FjBO6csbX1GAJ43Es3AQXzS0IoMEgDghYt0Zy8wEN92D/f+Kis3Hq0Mp64mCrTDsBpENlLBG0= X-Received: by 2002:a19:e1cc:: with SMTP id l73-v6mr238962lfk.102.1531154058595; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 09:34:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:34:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180709163144.x3ltgh7spzbz26km@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <20180709163144.x3ltgh7spzbz26km@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:34:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Andy Bierman , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c263d205709395b2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] subscription-id management across applications X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 16:34:23 -0000 --000000000000c263d205709395b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 9:31 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 09:12:57AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > Hi, > > > > The configured subscriptions use a uint32 subscription-id. > > There is text in 5.2 about splitting the range for dynamic and configured > > subscriptions: > > > > To support deployments including both configured and dynamic > > subscriptions, it is recommended to split subscription identifiers > > into static and dynamic halves. That way it eliminates the > > possibility of collisions if the configured subscriptions attempt to > > set a subscription-id which might have already been dynamically > > allocated. A best practice is to use lower half the "identifier" > > object's integer space when that "identifier" is assigned by an > > external entity (such as with a configured subscription). This > > leaves the upper half of subscription identifiers available to be > > dynamically assigned by the publisher. > > Why would a server accept a dynamic subscription that clashes with > a configured subscription? > > I don't think it would. The issue is how applications share the range allocated for configured subscriptions. > /js > > Andy > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --000000000000c263d205709395b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 9:31 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 09:12:57AM -0700, Andy Bierma= n wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The configured subscriptions use a uint32 subscription-id.
> There is text in 5.2 about splitting the range for dynamic and configu= red
> subscriptions:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To support deployments including both configured and dyna= mic
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 subscriptions, it is recommended to split subscription id= entifiers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 into static and dynamic halves.=C2=A0 That way it elimina= tes the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 possibility of collisions if the configured subscriptions= attempt to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 set a subscription-id which might have already been dynam= ically
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 allocated.=C2=A0 A best practice is to use lower half the= "identifier"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 object's integer space when that "identifier&quo= t; is assigned by an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 external entity (such as with a configured subscription).= =C2=A0 This
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaves the upper half of subscription identifiers availab= le to be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dynamically assigned by the publisher.

Why would a server accept a dynamic subscription that clashes with
a configured subscription?


I don't think it would.
The issue is h= ow applications share the range allocated for configured subscriptions.

=C2=A0
/js


Andy
=C2=A0
--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--000000000000c263d205709395b2-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 09:42:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4A4130E55 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fMc2i5NGc3Xg for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF4D5130E2A for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 25A2822FD295; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:42:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:42:36 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Andy Bierman Cc: Netconf Message-ID: <20180709164236.pxoegcmb7emszhn4@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Andy Bierman , Netconf References: <20180709163144.x3ltgh7spzbz26km@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] subscription-id management across applications X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 16:42:44 -0000 On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 09:34:17AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 9:31 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 09:12:57AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > The configured subscriptions use a uint32 subscription-id. > > > There is text in 5.2 about splitting the range for dynamic and configured > > > subscriptions: > > > > > > To support deployments including both configured and dynamic > > > subscriptions, it is recommended to split subscription identifiers > > > into static and dynamic halves. That way it eliminates the > > > possibility of collisions if the configured subscriptions attempt to > > > set a subscription-id which might have already been dynamically > > > allocated. A best practice is to use lower half the "identifier" > > > object's integer space when that "identifier" is assigned by an > > > external entity (such as with a configured subscription). This > > > leaves the upper half of subscription identifiers available to be > > > dynamically assigned by the publisher. > > > > Why would a server accept a dynamic subscription that clashes with > > a configured subscription? > > > > > I don't think it would. > The issue is how applications share the range allocated for configured > subscriptions. This is not how I read the text. Splitting between dynamic and configured does not solve the problem you think needs to be solved. The problem, which I think the text hints at, is a situation where a saved configuration cannot be restored due to dynamic subscriptions clashing. To avoid this, separating the number spaces for configured and dynamic subscriptions may be a good idea. I think applications creating subscriptions should coordinate by picking random values and being prepared to handle a failure if the randomly picked value is already taken. Given the number space, clashes should be rare. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Jul 9 09:49:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A543A130EAA for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e8bGMRREQAUs for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE00F130E88 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:49:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8202; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531154969; x=1532364569; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to; bh=v1K76EbXKQeDvvkYsciDZROzsMR/m+leYoFpTg8Gago=; b=Ey5FcK1Iw3VR110TS4GEAUEzAI12zKnFCx93xl8y+pJ7U5FHJ/ddWDwi 4DZ1zz6H6LwJfsjtKALLCfAn99ivbjywsXfWUTWc/iJXN7gNNWcrI93hE RMLUxkmMytmbcp0FrVw6nHYqoJpQAP6cZwgj2UWBDXYQiOj8FmmVZPbcS A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B2AQCRj0Nb/xbLJq1aAxkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGEK38og3qIY400CCKQJIcICxgBCoMScUYCgmY4FAECAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?CAQECbRwMhTcBAQEDAQEhCkEZAgkCEAgNGgMCAhsMHxEGAQwGAgEBgxwBgX8?= =?us-ascii?q?PjmibSIIcH4Q8g2+BNQUFij8/gTYMglyBVIFEAQGBSjcmgjqCVQKZTwmPHga?= =?us-ascii?q?IFoVHjDyFVIFYIYFSMxoIGxU7gmmBdIQ/hGGFPz4wjlEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,330,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="5010051" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 09 Jul 2018 16:49:25 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w69GnPZd005313; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:49:25 GMT To: Andy Bierman , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Netconf References: <20180709163144.x3ltgh7spzbz26km@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <19b8635d-5a2d-f032-1341-8b6493c50c18@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:49:25 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------51C6926D5295913DEAC8CB56" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] subscription-id management across applications X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 16:49:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------51C6926D5295913DEAC8CB56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 09/07/2018 17:34, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 9:31 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder > > wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 09:12:57AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > Hi, > > > > The configured subscriptions use a uint32 subscription-id. > > There is text in 5.2 about splitting the range for dynamic and > configured > > subscriptions: > > > >    To support deployments including both configured and dynamic > >    subscriptions, it is recommended to split subscription > identifiers > >    into static and dynamic halves.  That way it eliminates the > >    possibility of collisions if the configured subscriptions > attempt to > >    set a subscription-id which might have already been dynamically > >    allocated.  A best practice is to use lower half the "identifier" > >    object's integer space when that "identifier" is assigned by an > >    external entity (such as with a configured subscription).  This > >    leaves the upper half of subscription identifiers available to be > >    dynamically assigned by the publisher. > > Why would a server accept a dynamic subscription that clashes with > a configured subscription? > > > I don't think it would. > The issue is how applications share the range allocated for configured > subscriptions. ... which is the reason why I was arguing for string based ids for configured subscriptions. Humans seemingly find it easier to give unique names to things instead of unique numbers.  And if they want to use the string representation of numbers as unique names, well that also works. Perhaps someone need to standardize the equivalent of DNS for subscription ids ;-) Thanks, Rob > > > /js > > > Andy > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103          > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf --------------51C6926D5295913DEAC8CB56 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 09/07/2018 17:34, Andy Bierman wrote:


On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 9:31 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 09:12:57AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The configured subscriptions use a uint32 subscription-id.
> There is text in 5.2 about splitting the range for dynamic and configured
> subscriptions:
>
>    To support deployments including both configured and dynamic
>    subscriptions, it is recommended to split subscription identifiers
>    into static and dynamic halves.  That way it eliminates the
>    possibility of collisions if the configured subscriptions attempt to
>    set a subscription-id which might have already been dynamically
>    allocated.  A best practice is to use lower half the "identifier"
>    object's integer space when that "identifier" is assigned by an
>    external entity (such as with a configured subscription).  This
>    leaves the upper half of subscription identifiers available to be
>    dynamically assigned by the publisher.

Why would a server accept a dynamic subscription that clashes with
a configured subscription?


I don't think it would.
The issue is how applications share the range allocated for configured subscriptions.
... which is the reason why I was arguing for string based ids for configured subscriptions.

Humans seemingly find it easier to give unique names to things instead of unique numbers.  And if they want to use the string representation of numbers as unique names, well that also works.

Perhaps someone need to standardize the equivalent of DNS for subscription ids ;-)

Thanks,
Rob



 
/js


Andy
 
--
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>



_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

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list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 17:26:30 -0000 --0000000000000f48190570945051 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: > > > On 09/07/2018 17:34, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 9:31 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > >> On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 09:12:57AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > The configured subscriptions use a uint32 subscription-id. >> > There is text in 5.2 about splitting the range for dynamic and >> configured >> > subscriptions: >> > >> > To support deployments including both configured and dynamic >> > subscriptions, it is recommended to split subscription identifiers >> > into static and dynamic halves. That way it eliminates the >> > possibility of collisions if the configured subscriptions attempt to >> > set a subscription-id which might have already been dynamically >> > allocated. A best practice is to use lower half the "identifier" >> > object's integer space when that "identifier" is assigned by an >> > external entity (such as with a configured subscription). This >> > leaves the upper half of subscription identifiers available to be >> > dynamically assigned by the publisher. >> >> Why would a server accept a dynamic subscription that clashes with >> a configured subscription? >> >> > I don't think it would. > The issue is how applications share the range allocated for configured > subscriptions. > > ... which is the reason why I was arguing for string based ids for > configured subscriptions. > > Humans seemingly find it easier to give unique names to things instead of > unique numbers. And if they want to use the string representation of > numbers as unique names, well that also works. > +1 Given the incredibly long node names used in this YANG module, it's not as if any attempt to reduce the payload size is being made, so it seems especially odd that subscription-id size should be a factor. The string representation of the randomly generated 31 bit number is likely to be as long as a not-random string selected by the application. > > Perhaps someone need to standardize the equivalent of DNS for subscription > ids ;-) > > Thanks, > Rob > > > Andy > > > >> /js >> >> > Andy > > >> -- >> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany >> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing listNetconf@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > --0000000000000f48190570945051 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:
=20 =20 =20



On 09/07/2018 17:34= , Andy Bierman wrote:
=20


On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 9:31 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jaco= bs-university.de> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 09:12:57AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The configured subscriptions use a uint32 subscription-id.
> There is text in 5.2 about splitting the range for dynamic and configured
> subscriptions:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To support deployments including both confi= gured and dynamic
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 subscriptions, it is recommended to split subscription identifiers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 into static and dynamic halves.=C2=A0 That = way it eliminates the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 possibility of collisions if the configured subscriptions attempt to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 set a subscription-id which might have alre= ady been dynamically
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 allocated.=C2=A0 A best practice is to use = lower half the "identifier"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 object's integer space when that "= identifier" is assigned by an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 external entity (such as with a configured subscription).=C2=A0 This
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaves the upper half of subscription ident= ifiers available to be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dynamically assigned by the publisher.

Why would a server accept a dynamic subscription that clashes with
a configured subscription?


I don't think it would.
The issue is how applications share the range allocated for configured subscriptions.
... which is the reason why I was arguing for string based ids for configured subscriptions.

Humans seemingly find it easier to give unique names to things instead of unique numbers.=C2=A0 And if they want to use the string representation of numbers as unique names, well that also works.


+1

<= div>Given the incredibly long node names used in this YANG module, it's= not as if any
attempt to reduce the payload size is being made, = so it seems especially odd
that subscription-id size should be a = factor.=C2=A0 The string representation of the
randomly generated= 31 bit number is likely to be as long as a not-random string
sel= ected by the application.

=C2=A0

Perhaps someone need to standardize the equivalent of DNS for subscription ids ;-)

Thanks,
Rob



Andy
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

=C2=A0
/js


Andy
=C2=A0
--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>



_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/netconf


--0000000000000f48190570945051-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 10:30:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDB313104E; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 10:30:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u2jUOFVncf1W; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 10:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF3613104D; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 10:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 93B6322FD422; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 19:30:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 19:30:41 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Kent Watsen Cc: Qin Wu , Andy Bierman , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" , Robert Wilton Message-ID: <20180709173041.xkihqyccjcucjslj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Kent Watsen , Qin Wu , Andy Bierman , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" , Robert Wilton References: <82A8420F-445C-42BD-9A47-DCF62A9864BC@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <82A8420F-445C-42BD-9A47-DCF62A9864BC@juniper.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] nmda-restconf operations (was: netconf-binary-encoding comments) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 17:30:48 -0000 On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 05:21:26PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > This isn't what I meant. To be more specific, I'm wondering if the nmda-restconf > draft would benefit from having a sentence like: > > A RESTCONF server supporting NMDA datastores MAY implement the > "ietf-netconf" [RFC6241] and "ietf-netconf-nmda" [I-D. ietf-netconf-nmda- > netconf] modules to enable the NETCONF operations defined in those > drafts to appear {+restconf}/operations resource. > > Note: I put "MAY" as RESTCONF may someday have a more native way to do this. > Well, "ietf-netconf" does not really support NMDA well and this is why we have "ietf-netconf-nmda". Does not make much sense to point to "ietf-netconf" in an NMDA document. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Jul 9 10:49:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92713131056; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 10:49:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DFOCI2pztvqj; 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Mon, 9 Jul 2018 11:13:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zzp8AlY9vEJA; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 11:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00A612F1AC; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 11:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8F51522FD577; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:13:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:13:38 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Kent Watsen Cc: Qin Wu , Andy Bierman , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" , Robert Wilton Message-ID: <20180709181338.anv7tfsylvhypwdz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Kent Watsen , Qin Wu , Andy Bierman , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" , Robert Wilton References: <82A8420F-445C-42BD-9A47-DCF62A9864BC@juniper.net> <20180709173041.xkihqyccjcucjslj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <13FABA4A-C367-4E27-88FF-3EA48638249F@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <13FABA4A-C367-4E27-88FF-3EA48638249F@juniper.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] nmda-restconf operations (was: netconf-binary-encoding comments) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 18:13:43 -0000 On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 05:48:57PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > >> This isn't what I meant. To be more specific, I'm wondering if the nmda-restconf > >> draft would benefit from having a sentence like: > >> > >> A RESTCONF server supporting NMDA datastores MAY implement the > >> "ietf-netconf" [RFC6241] and "ietf-netconf-nmda" [I-D. ietf-netconf-nmda- > >> netconf] modules to enable the NETCONF operations defined in those > >> drafts to appear {+restconf}/operations resource. > >> > >> Note: I put "MAY" as RESTCONF may someday have a more native way to do this. > >> > > > > Well, "ietf-netconf" does not really support NMDA well and this is why > > we have "ietf-netconf-nmda". Does not make much sense to point to > > "ietf-netconf" in an NMDA document. > > But we'd still need lock, unlock, commit, commit-confirmed, etc., right? Yep. > Maybe it's a moot point, since ietf-netconf-nmda requires that ietf-netconf > is implemented too, but I thought being explicit would be helpful here. As long as readers get the idea that implementing lets say edit-config is perhaps not the best idea... > So, adding something like this to nmda-restconf would be good? It likely does not hurt to be clear that this option of using NETCONF operations in RESTCONF exists. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Jul 9 14:44:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietf.org Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949EA131023 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:44:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153117268260.5357.13189216511759298399.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 14:44:42 -0700 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] Milestones changed for netconf WG X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 21:44:43 -0000 Changed milestone "WGLC for advanced Notification/Subscription Specifications", set due date to September 2018 from March 2018. Changed milestone "WGLC for YANG Push", set due date to September 2018 from March 2018. Changed milestone "WGLC for NETCONF Support for Event Notifications", set due date to September 2018 from March 2018. Changed milestone "WGLC for RESTCONF and HTTP Transport for Event Notifications", set due date to September 2018 from May 2018. Changed milestone "WGLC for YANG Notification Headers and Bundles", set due date to September 2018 from May 2018. Changed milestone "WGLC for System-level Keystore Mechanism", set due date to December 2018 from April 2018. Changed milestone "WGLC for Server and Client Configuration Models for NETCONF and RESTCONF", set due date to December 2018 from April 2018. Changed milestone "WGLC for Client and Server Configuration Models for SSH and TLS", set due date to December 2018 from April 2018. URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/netconf/about/ From nobody Mon Jul 9 17:05:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A212131138 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:05:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nPuMQJGofSl8 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x236.google.com (mail-pl0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E737A130EB2 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x236.google.com with SMTP id b1-v6so6761280pls.5 for ; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 17:05:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=QrlNAJjvzdiN270g6RQxT/pEOx4blHaFIP8jmKsuH1g=; b=QUe4Eh3H9egtnJFhYTozVN7XyZOSHskm4cPrUPGHVrCtCvSZ4wqvLmYoc4BXfIytVf ubQsuckMWBQj1XDoS37HUuFxfUxjsmGPpeMKVC7k8Or6F06per9XltEx/liHG7B8qugt HKWVRM9avZTnZsLBgCLy0Qo04TCFoI6WN51rAuV9VIioBXux9UeuNNim3MKp9ni51C7e ALkUqYl+KXcHFvjWBCmQ1cb47d01vbUeyAdynbfm+jzZa2SHAkUQVm9DCNgvgeik8x14 nl8J5m+lHeFR7xsvuWV+qu45YI4ZQmqWUea6Tm+fPMIVcY9fM/kWG9hgn8T4N/I6IZGa jM6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=QrlNAJjvzdiN270g6RQxT/pEOx4blHaFIP8jmKsuH1g=; b=FyAk+rRrWcaKpxFpRPR/BSMsFTE5D9dLJH4BgAzBpEf+CI2PABbOE63KYpvc1x5Ek5 R6SXKcYfhgWIUQiJFSTXyCbyaLGea+Cd1yg9jX7oNDKPfi+ULea6FIeN3TilDW0E3HDV 5ijpG5+BwxzAuukSs2OLkpujtOc5vbCwhsoFAJwvorRm7tT2k6QGO8zIQESiWYzJPcDj aK5bV6hPTvymR9NIHR/CBwXB0Ze1bH4gWiwwztQbr1xTy7U0bwlwN2jqPoYUAIJ9eWY2 TT1MoTWuO0uZ7zaaLNu3uMyCP11uZKlrjC55i5JsGkoUGCpPXbhkoj2DC3vCdEMUOUTt zNow== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0xIAK1v5+tCvXaF9Ow3fHFE16r+Vc+HdesTQKQCw1drRLmZRMT 30RPBrkvb2UUVDzGUmHJV0s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcCxG7S941dXsusxzudPAYPRdZH2vLNb4w936oDbL8io4yxQxPlbkVF6TdRYDlr722B22H4RA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7581:: with SMTP id j1-v6mr11892962pll.218.1531181146510; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 17:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4700:1280:b836:21af:f5df:8992? ([2601:647:4700:1280:b836:21af:f5df:8992]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t76-v6sm46277128pfe.109.2018.07.09.17.05.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 Jul 2018 17:05:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9CBDBC9C-AA66-49D4-9A5A-A1A5B407CA5F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.4 \(3445.8.2\)) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:05:44 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Kent Watsen , Andy Bierman , "netconf@ietf.org" To: Balazs Lengyel References: <14395e68-eb71-7766-d4d2-4de0ea67681f@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:05:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9CBDBC9C-AA66-49D4-9A5A-A1A5B407CA5F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Jul 9, 2018, at 4:28 AM, Balazs Lengyel = wrote: >=20 > Efficiency is mostly interesting for yang-push data and not so much = for . >=20 I would generally agree that it is not as interesting for = or . But we have seen instances of where the data = set being returned can be rather large, e.g. BGP route entries, where = encoding of the data would have helped. But the question is, do we want to be selective in what we encode? Would = it not be easier/simpler for all transaction to be in a single form of = encoding? > However we are more interested in dynamic-subscriptions then in = configured subscriptions.=20 > Eegards Balazs >=20 >=20 > On 7/5/2018 7:06 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: >> =20 >> > When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in = improving >> > the efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV. >> =20 >> I agree that there is little appetite to improve the efficiency of = configuration-oriented >> workflows. Monitoring, for which notifications supports in a big = way, have a strong >> push for efficiency. I think the primary question is if this = efficiency must be realizable >> for NC/RC based subscriptions, or if the efficiency can come from the = use of more >> suitable transports (e.g., gRPC), that can be defined by future = "notif" drafts? >> =20 >> If we were only interested in such efficiency for configured = subscriptions, then I think >> a "notif" draft to define the transport would be relatively easy. = If such efficiency is >> also needed for dynamic subscriptions, then it seems like something = along the lines >> of what binary-encoding draft proposes might be needed. >> =20 >> Is there a need for efficiency for any other workflow? What about = for RPCs that are >> executed often (e.g., polling) or return very large responses? Does = we care about >> making these use cases more efficient too, or are we primarily only = interested in >> just making notifications efficient? >> =20 >> Kent >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> On 7/5/18, 12:07 PM, "Netconf on behalf of Andy Bierman" = on behalf = ofandy@yumaworks.com > wrote: >> =20 >> Hi,=20 >> =20 >> I think the first-order issue is for the WG to decide if there is a = problem to be >> solved by this WG, and if so, what is the problem scope. >> =20 >> Details like the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply, etc do not = really impact that decision. >> =20 >> When I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in = improving the >> efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV. >> =20 >> = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bierman-netconf-efficiency-extensions-00= = >> =20 >> I think this draft should focus on the protocol mechanisms and not = define >> any media types. Definitions of GPB and other formats are not trivial = and need >> their own RFCs. >> =20 >> =20 >> Andy >> =20 >> =20 >> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel = > = wrote: >> Hello, >> Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary encoding be = interesting? >>=20 >> Chapter 2) >>=20 >> - A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be = good. What is the top XML element that will be encoded? , = , , ? Just referencing a figure in = another draft is not enough. >>=20 >> - SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for the = XML encoding? Is that always implicit? State it. >>=20 >> 4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here? >>=20 >> I would think that all encodings need some official reference, = defining how they are used with YANG: RFC, web link >>=20 >> Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere = or do we need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case. >>=20 >> regards Balazs >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. >> Senior Specialist >> Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: = Balazs..Lengyel@ericsson.com >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Netconf mailing list >> Netconf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf = >> =20 >=20 > --=20 > Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. > Senior Specialist > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: = Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com =20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf = Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_9CBDBC9C-AA66-49D4-9A5A-A1A5B407CA5F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On Jul 9, 2018, at 4:28 AM, Balazs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Efficiency is mostly interesting for = yang-push data and not so much for <edit-config>  = <edit-data> <get-config> = <get-data>.

I would generally agree that it = is not as interesting for <edit-config> or <get-config>. But = we have seen instances of <get-data> where the data set being = returned can be rather large, e.g. BGP route entries, where encoding of = the data would have helped.

But the = question is, do we want to be selective in what we encode? Would it not = be easier/simpler for all transaction to be in a single form of = encoding?

However we are = more interested in dynamic-subscriptions then in configured = subscriptions. 
Eegards Balazs


On = 7/5/2018 7:06 PM, Kent Watsen wrote:
 
> When I = brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in = improving
> the efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change = that POV.
 
I agree that there is little appetite to improve the = efficiency of configuration-oriented
workflows.   Monitoring, for which notifications = supports in a big way, have a strong
push for = efficiency.  I think the primary question is if this efficiency = must be realizable
for NC/RC based subscriptions, or if the efficiency can come = from the use of more
suitable transports (e.g., gRPC), that can be = defined by future "notif" drafts?
 
If we were only interested in such efficiency for = configured subscriptions, then I think
a "notif" = draft to define the transport would be relatively easy.   If = such efficiency is
also needed for dynamic subscriptions, then it seems like = something along the lines
of what binary-encoding draft proposes might be = needed.
 
Is there a = need for efficiency for any other workflow?   What about for = RPCs that are
executed often (e.g., polling) or return very large = responses?   Does we care about
making these = use cases more efficient too, or are we primarily only interested in
just making = notifications efficient?
 
Kent
 
 
 
On = 7/5/18, 12:07 PM, "Netconf on behalf of Andy Bierman" <netconf-bounces@ietf.org on behalf ofandy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
 
Hi, 
 
I think the first-order issue = is for the WG to decide if there is a problem to be
solved by this WG, and if so, what is the = problem scope.
 
Details like the SID assignments for rpc, = rpc-reply, etc do not really impact that decision.
 
When I brought up = this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in improving the
efficiency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will = change that POV.
 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bierman-netconf-efficiency-ex= tensions-00
 
I think this draft should focus on the protocol = mechanisms and not define
any media types. = Definitions of GPB and other formats are not trivial and need
their own RFCs.
 
 
Andy
 
 
On Thu, Jul 5, = 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hello,
Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary = encoding be interesting?

Chapter 2)

- A more detailed explanation of which parts = are encoded would be good. What is the top XML element that will be = encoded? <rpc>, <RPC-reply>, <RPC-error>, = <notification> ? Just referencing a figure in another draft is not = enough.

- SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a = client server declare support for the XML encoding? Is that always = implicit? State it.

4.2) Shouldn't we also = have a JSON encoding here?

I would think = that all encodings need some official reference, defining how they are = used with YANG: RFC, web link

Is the Thrift = and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere or do we need an = RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case.

regards Balazs




-- 
Balazs Lengyel          =              Ericsson Hungary = Ltd.
Senior = Specialist
Mobile: = +36-70-330-7909              = email: Balazs..Lengyel@ericsson.com

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing = list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf=
 

--=20
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com=20
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing = list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com

= --Apple-Mail=_9CBDBC9C-AA66-49D4-9A5A-A1A5B407CA5F-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 17:23:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0060C1310A9 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:23:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bBvbnZuC0zDU for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x22b.google.com (mail-pl0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38930130EE2 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id s24-v6so6772880plq.6 for ; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 17:23:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=0vrzTWamRWXc8JXh8j2tQMOEo+PbmwLjBIKzXuB1HTM=; b=de1wM9vRe8xKeB7DVoRaWrNnxUBrjM9OIbaSRWbB0Ok7zB0E2fDlw/Sc0S/1eG97c3 dTTB5aV1ZN1ehhe8cZ4i4MY0HFoQ53UYQbXLidB1geFZNJkAyqU/zKYxZ5UlFjvrY3bH +cCirhaR8wzeqkUwJ/OfsnLsa/O8sLgnVC0GrK3/nly2C2JJ/JGsCMlt5u8ndmE8Lrtc un2Q9XTOUCJ6KyxUnKtU8OiQsww8bwrTvWYcOIjOKMM84z50PV0Z9e98D0vCwcATlMDJ SgeR3W2L1jGnlPvgWtTEZ23zprpJR6jFq+49ySBDVB9ICmHK1qh6cnVBV+dHrIW84vkB 6uBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=0vrzTWamRWXc8JXh8j2tQMOEo+PbmwLjBIKzXuB1HTM=; b=Y9pcxZz5O2imLb7BJZE33vib6Uu6WQULjpoSyP+bI4oQsQlX5lDu73k4L49SEC3MhK mmSl+8tGktcZZy7Bq+O2Xl/CeMKW2pUgJE7gRx1Qh6fjKiUtkh+iTrzKelB933PEcSzN skab0qqHo08MsCTm/2LA4waE9+Op7/yQ4Jzi0oiQqqGZ7RN7BxmsSyQcmUZSCZANn9eG qyRyySxf9yyz8uztnwH3rHs6t14RPeATt0AGaoh64ot1qCJ7bClQmR29rbq8qpNfYjU4 pBjxCC+EyHemU6nSLJ3B43fSTqmlKuJtqH2gxJ0KLjXD50NMOCiD4Nbn+bfZ7tHxvbhI L4Kg== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1FClhEsrKi2BWYdSHzOqGYn+X/4bROY/il66OVaFM1GbXCbKkt eh7VdHYtIef+kvN91syzMYlRUFhO X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfyVvMeIXjuAkVWL/J2lqugunU4QGhQfYOngSOfvzeecIDb3aYg1YDGiJ+ozmE3Cr9ABfj6gg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:1023:: with SMTP id b32-v6mr22980394pla.145.1531182194988; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 17:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4700:1280:b836:21af:f5df:8992? ([2601:647:4700:1280:b836:21af:f5df:8992]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u185-v6sm17094294pfu.134.2018.07.09.17.23.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 Jul 2018 17:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.4 \(3445.8.2\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: <87lgakam4o.fsf@nic.cz> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:23:13 -0700 Cc: Netconf Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87lgakam4o.fsf@nic.cz> To: Ladislav Lhotka X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Ladislav Lhotka] IETF 102 presentation request X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:23:25 -0000 Hi Lada, The requirement is that the draft would have to be submitted to the data = tracker, which it has, posted to the WG, which you did on June 28th and = discussed on the mailing list, which we see, albeit with just one = response.=20 I do not know how we missed this, but the good news is that we do have = time. Kent and I will accommodate the request, though the time slot = would be more like 7-10 min. depending on how much time we can squeeze = out. Cheers. > On Jul 9, 2018, at 12:44 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I sent in the following presentation request but now I see that I = didn't > get a session slot. So I am wondering - what are the criteria for > selecting non-chartered items? >=20 > Thanks, Lada >=20 > -------------------- Start of forwarded message -------------------- > From: Ladislav Lhotka > Subject: IETF 102 presentation request > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 08:40:29 +0200 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > =C3=8D'd like to present my draft: >=20 > - RESTCONF with Transactions > (draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00) > - presenter: Ladislav Lhotka > - time slot: 10-15 minutes >=20 > Thanks, Lada >=20 > --=20 > Ladislav Lhotka > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > -------------------- End of forwarded message -------------------- >=20 > --=20 > Ladislav Lhotka > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Mon Jul 9 17:39:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EEC2127148 for ; 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10 Jul 2018 00:39:32 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (xch-rtp-015.cisco.com [64.101.220.155]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6A0dV9h013985 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:39:32 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:39:31 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:39:31 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Andy Bierman CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] subscription-id management across applications Thread-Index: AQHUF5/APYUdQOKGUE6aKli9l6yD26SHWHQAgAAAtoCAAAJTAIAAPQiw Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:39:31 +0000 Message-ID: <631ddde69d1345aa8fd697eabc0d8c85@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <20180709163144.x3ltgh7spzbz26km@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180709164236.pxoegcmb7emszhn4@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180709164236.pxoegcmb7emszhn4@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.32.173.61] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] subscription-id management across applications X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:39:37 -0000 > Juergen Schoenwaelder, , July 9, 2018 12:43 PM >=20 > On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 09:34:17AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 9:31 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 09:12:57AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > The configured subscriptions use a uint32 subscription-id. > > > > There is text in 5.2 about splitting the range for dynamic and > > > > configured > > > > subscriptions: > > > > > > > > To support deployments including both configured and dynamic > > > > subscriptions, it is recommended to split subscription identifie= rs > > > > into static and dynamic halves. That way it eliminates the > > > > possibility of collisions if the configured subscriptions attemp= t to > > > > set a subscription-id which might have already been dynamically > > > > allocated. A best practice is to use lower half the "identifier= " > > > > object's integer space when that "identifier" is assigned by an > > > > external entity (such as with a configured subscription). This > > > > leaves the upper half of subscription identifiers available to b= e > > > > dynamically assigned by the publisher. > > > > > > Why would a server accept a dynamic subscription that clashes with a > > > configured subscription? > > > > > > > > I don't think it would. > > The issue is how applications share the range allocated for configured > > subscriptions. >=20 > This is not how I read the text. Splitting between dynamic and configured= does > not solve the problem you think needs to be solved. > The problem, which I think the text hints at, is a situation where a save= d > configuration cannot be restored due to dynamic subscriptions clashing. T= o > avoid this, separating the number spaces for configured and dynamic > subscriptions may be a good idea. Yes this was part of the thinking. =20 > I think applications creating subscriptions should coordinate by picking = random > values and being prepared to handle a failure if the randomly picked valu= e is > already taken. Given the number space, clashes should be rare. Yes this is a valid way to implement. Eric =20 > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf From nobody Mon Jul 9 17:39:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFDFA12F1AB for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:39:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: 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Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:39:32 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:39:32 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Andy Bierman , "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] subscription-id management across applications Thread-Index: AQHUF5/APYUdQOKGUE6aKli9l6yD26SHWHQAgAAAtoCAAAQ6gIAAClSAgAAxsRA= Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:39:31 +0000 Message-ID: <7843fdaf4b504cb8a61ecd60c34843f5@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <20180709163144.x3ltgh7spzbz26km@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <19b8635d-5a2d-f032-1341-8b6493c50c18@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.32.173.61] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Netconf= [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA= =B1=ED Mahesh Jethanandani
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C210=C8=D5 8:06
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Balazs Lengyel
=B3=AD=CB=CD: netconf@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Netconf] netconf-binary-encoding comments

 

 



On Jul 9, 2018, at 4:28 AM, Bal= azs Lengyel <balazs.lengy= el@ericsson.com> wrote:

 

Efficiency is mostly interesting for yang-push= data and not so much for <edit-config>  <edit-data> <g= et-config> <get-data>.

I would generally agree that it= is not as interesting for <edit-config> or <get-config>. But w= e have seen instances of <get-data> where the data set being returned= can be rather large, e.g. BGP route entries, where encoding of the data would have helped.

&n= bsp;

[Qin]: Ano= ther complimentary way to improve NETCONF efficiency is to fragment large s= ize data in the RPC message into data chunk in multiple RPC messages, we see this proposal being cooked for quite a long time,

Surprising= ly not see any progress on it.

 = ;

But the question is, do we want= to be selective in what we encode? Would it not be easier/simpler for all = transaction to be in a single form of encoding?

However we are more interested in dynamic-subs= criptions then in configured subscriptions. 
Eegards Balazs

 

On 7/5/2018 7:06 PM, Kent Watsen wrote:

 <= span lang=3D"EN-US">

> When I br= ought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in improving=

> the effic= iency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV.

 <= span lang=3D"EN-US">

I agree that t= here is little appetite to improve the efficiency of configuration-oriented=

workflows.&nbs= p;  Monitoring, for which notifications supports in a big way, have a = strong

push for effic= iency.  I think the primary question is if this efficiency must be rea= lizable

for NC/RC base= d subscriptions, or if the efficiency can come from the use of more<= span lang=3D"EN-US">

suitable trans= ports (e.g., gRPC), that can be defined by future "notif" drafts?=

 <= span lang=3D"EN-US">

If we were onl= y interested in such efficiency for configured subscriptions, then I think<= /span>

a "notif&= quot; draft to define the transport would be relatively easy.   I= f such efficiency is

also needed fo= r dynamic subscriptions, then it seems like something along the lines

of what binary= -encoding draft proposes might be needed.<= /o:p>

 <= span lang=3D"EN-US">

Is there a nee= d for efficiency for any other workflow?   What about for RPCs th= at are

executed often= (e.g., polling) or return very large responses?   Does we care a= bout

making these u= se cases more efficient too, or are we primarily only interested in<= span lang=3D"EN-US">

just making no= tifications efficient?

 <= span lang=3D"EN-US">

Kent

 <= span lang=3D"EN-US">

 <= span lang=3D"EN-US">

 <= span lang=3D"EN-US">

On 7= /5/18, 12:07 PM, "Netconf on behalf of Andy Bierman" <netconf-b= ounces@ietf.org on behalf ofandy@yumaworks.com> wrote:

&nbs= p;

Hi,<= span class=3D"apple-converted-space"> 

&nbs= p;

I th= ink the first-order issue is for the WG to decide if there is a problem to = be

solv= ed by this WG, and if so, what is the problem scope.

&nbs= p;

Deta= ils like the SID assignments for rpc, rpc-reply, etc do not really impact t= hat decision.

&nbs= p;

When= I brought up this issue 5 years ago there was zero interest in improving t= he

effi= ciency of NETCONF. Maybe YANG Push will change that POV.<= /p>

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

I th= ink this draft should focus on the protocol mechanisms and not define<= /o:p>

any = media types. Definitions of GPB and other formats are not trivial and need<= o:p>

thei= r own RFCs.

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

Andy=

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

On T= hu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Balazs Lengyel <balazs.le= ngyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hell= o,
Is this applicable for Restconf? Would a Restconf binary encoding be intere= sting?

Chapter 2)

- A more detailed explanation of which parts are encoded would be good. Wha= t is the top XML element that will be encoded? <rpc>, <RPC-reply&g= t;, <RPC-error>, <notification> ? Just referencing a figure in = another draft is not enough.

- SHOULD, SHALL or SHALL NOT a client server declare support for the XML en= coding? Is that always implicit? State it.

4.2) Shouldn't we also have a JSON encoding here?

I would think that all encodings need some official reference, defining how= they are used with YANG: RFC, web link

Is the Thrift and gpb encoding trivial or is it described somewhere or do w= e need an RFC about it? Please state whichever is the case.

regards Balazs





-- 
Balazs Lengyel        &nbs= p;              Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909     = ;         email: Balazs..= Lengyel@ericsson.com

______________________________________________= _
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo= /netconf

&nbs= p;



-- 
Balazs Lengyel         &nb=
sp;            =
 Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909       &n=
bsp;      email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com

______= _________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/netconf

 

Mahesh Jethanandani<= /span>

 

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEFA124nkgeml513mbxchi_-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 18:01:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94648130EB0 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:01:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JwdAbqpjIibA for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by 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Thanks = Eric for valuable comments, see reply inline.

&n= bsp;

-Qin

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Eric Voit (evoit) [mailto:evoit@cisco.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C26=C8=D5 22:38
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu; Zhengguangying (Walker)
=B3=AD=CB=CD: netconf@ietf.org; Rohit R Ranade; Aijun Wang
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF

 

Hi Qin

Hi Walker,

 

From: Qin Wu, July 4, 2018 2:1= 9 AM

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Rohit R Ranade
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C24=C8=D5 14:01
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu
=B3=AD=CB=CD: netconf@ietf.org; Zhengguangying (Walker)
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

[Qin]:Y= es, invoking action on configuration datastore is our key use cases,e.g., b= atch operation on 100 interfaces and enable Interface statistics and

Then se= t MTU value to a specific interface. Enable interface statistics on 100 int= erfaces will happen first and then MTU value setup.

These o= perations have no conflict risk and can execute in any order in one transac= tion, it will be great to introduce this multi-sub operations in one transa= ction.

[= Rohit R Ranade] But why must this happen in single transaction ? If done as= two separate RPC what is the impact ?

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

[Qin]: = Improve transaction efficiency is one of important motivations. Separate ac= tion from <edit-config> operation, you still need to handle action th= at is part of <config> element within

<edi= t-config> operation.

 

<Eric> Interesting thread.   Two questions:<= /o:p>

 

(1) With multiple transactions in one, I initially read this as y= ou might want to support the edit config failing if the action fails (i.e.,= an error coming result from the action on the operational datastore).  And the result is that the aggregate = transaction would fail across datastores.  

 

Now looking at your responses on this thread, it looks like that = your use case is non-interdependent configuration actions.  Based on t= hat, which of the following do you want to considering in scope?  And if only (a), you should likely add more to= the scope statement.

 

(a) single datastore edit and actions, where each atomic edit wil= l complete or fail independently

(b) single datastore edit and actions, where the full operation f= ails if any component fails

&n= bsp;

[Qin]: = It depends error-options we select, I think we may support either (a) or (b= ). The error options are defined in section 7.2 of RFC6241.

(c) cross datastore edit and actions, where the full operation fa= ils if any component fails

&n= bsp;

(2) Do you see any cases where the action operation must occur af= ter the edit config?  I.e., the action depends on a successful edit co= nfig happening first.

[Qin]: Good question, before NMDA is introduced, we support conve= rting learned configuration into static configuration, static configuration= can be injected into <running> through <edit-config>,

In this case, we can use action to do such conversion and then us= e <edit-config> to edit the content into <running>.<= /span>

&n= bsp;

Thanks,

Eric

&n= bsp;

In Some= other cases when action is invoked in operational state datastore, we can = use <operational> to get learned configuration and translate them int= o static configuration.

[= Rohit R Ranade] We can still do this. We can get learned configuration from= <operational>, and if need to translate to static we can always crea= te such configuration in <running>

&n= bsp;

[Qin]:H= ave we already had standard mechanism to translate learned into static? I s= ee none.

&n= bsp;

With Re= gards,

Rohit R= Ranade

&n= bsp;

From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu
Sent: 04 July 2018 07:32
To: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for = NETCONF

 

Hi, Folks:

We have posted inline action ca= pability draft on Jun 28:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/c= urrent/msg14823.html

 
One comment we received from the list is:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netcon=
f/current/msg14863.html
The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment.

Therefore we would like to draw= you attention again on this draft

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zh=
eng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01

We would like to receive more r= eview and feedback on this draft, thanks.

 

-Qin

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AEFA14Enkgeml513mbxchi_-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 20:07:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF778131173 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:07:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8kfqJAUH_UeK for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22e.google.com (mail-lf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C13A013110D for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id n96-v6so16962831lfi.1 for ; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 20:06:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6X1a18Nt0jdRcqzvOyggijLIv5j5lymSJS7U2WaZRoc=; b=CT9dzQi3hAyh7yvFyYw+6RKsVgME2awxUsP6FuyLce2GTyjSKORrJb8gsszwzxmfp4 s5fCG57aAa7Wu000vjmmaMC6UcxRR2SGYQ2J6B/cWhxVU9BIXi9PGXRu8qV/5dsvIqMZ p8YdopFDLTKX9hIj10UjwWKSW0TBrHTPAnm311TeI5kGpKoO8MJUBp1gsvZw5UP8725b laMSjtvniBnMW8U8EBqAxit14AI3iqinsb1XR5rXG7vm35Rsqc0ewqV9vQpR2HIUHJhx NsvCxbddIV2KFAOeHPadS1y6WJuNIooBTPGC2xBwLfgSKkCMLgYOt1y+2eS8rAoUHYYy wy1A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6X1a18Nt0jdRcqzvOyggijLIv5j5lymSJS7U2WaZRoc=; b=Ou+VVBiDOHwozTxeMqDdHfFj+I3Zn0kEZm6txWj9mifpWDtIwE3Oz69VefGWisvU7H w4kZ+gqJPwtL8jA9PQ21zfIBJWZt2tVlquzMwwIb+RZ/Z3WIX7Vp3OakqeaNWWJbnNPm SNfTO6YVOFghM+LtyjBX08533xQENyQ2ygjlaimbdynztpKfdjDhlqYG2Pl4CCwym1c9 6mCE+C1hJSjxfeC0yKf0txVz+sM123a1lBEMd6MsBAw+NoFX9+uUxsI1AUApvH0cKkZs Ht3McAEU8e00vSyeMOUlRcU/6LApmQlE9JbQZoAi48uqg7BzAzwaC10XwvhGi02VCYbj QAIw== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0UIECM+a1wZElmh9OqmejCo7CVhPAflkLZPFpovrwMxHBqfF84 UCAnDtDr4WzglCV/LALrYRPR6aghUE6tAUPRYAwPUv0G X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpePEb2mPqhG5+WXgMiUIRSagCYTTk0sReVtdniQF8G1ySwF5S0SSZ+0aunEIgS2Y7zlQW7WwFqxhpyKFwZ50cQ= X-Received: by 2002:a19:e1cc:: with SMTP id l73-v6mr1384256lfk.102.1531192013937; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 20:06:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:06:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:06:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Martin Bjorklund , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000012f21105709c6c1d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 03:07:07 -0000 --00000000000012f21105709c6c1d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman, July 8, 2018 12:26 PM > > On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 09:58:07AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > > Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > > You mean I think. > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not > > simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-) > > Well, the configured subscription is needed anyway in order for the > device to call home, so having the client create all configured > subscriptions as dynamic subscriptions as well doesn't seem quite > right. > > > > It is quite possible that multiple RPC operations are needed to get the > session > > started, such as reading the YANG library, and that the client > > is not ready to receive notifications as soon as the session is started. > > So an operation may help. > > > > > > But if the WG agrees that it is ok to send directly, > this issue goes away. > > > > Sitting idle is definitely OK. > > Accepting notifications right away is OK as an implementation feature > > outside the standard. > > > > If the NETCONF-Notif says that the NETCONF client for a configured > subscription must be able to handle accepting notifications right away, do > you see any standardization issue with this behavior in this context? > > Actually, I think there are issues with configured subscriptions wrt/ CallHome because of the text in RFC 8071, 1.3: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8071#section-1.3 The transport and encoding leafs are identityrefs, which means the possible values are unknown and unbounded. Do all possible values (including vendor values, which are valid for the YANG leaf) change the protocol enough so separate security analysis are required? I think a SecDir review may raise concerns wrt/ this issue. Eric > > > /martin > > > > Andy > > > Andy --00000000000012f21105709c6c1d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <= ;evoit@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:

Hi Andy,

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman, July 8, 2018 12:26 PM

On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Martin Bjorklund <= ;mbj@tail-f.com>= wrote:

Juergen Schoenwaelder &= lt;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 09:58:07AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > You mean <start-all-configured-subscriptions> I t= hink.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
>
> If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not<= br> > simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-)

Well, the configured subscription is needed anyway in order for the
device to call home, so having the client create all configured
subscriptions as dynamic subscriptions as well doesn't seem quite
right.

=C2=A0

It is quite possible that multiple RPC operations ar= e needed to get the session

started, such as reading the YANG library, and that = the client

is not ready to receive notifications as soon as the= session is started.

So an <activate-configured-sessions> operation= may help.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But if the WG agrees th= at it is ok to send <notification> directly,
this issue goes away.

=C2=A0

Sitting idle is definitely OK.

Accepting notifications right away is OK as an imple= mentation feature

outside the standard.

=C2=A0

<Eric> If the NETCONF-Notif says that = the NETCONF client for a configured subscription must be able to handle acc= epting notifications right away, do you see any standardization issue with this behavior in this context?

=

Actually, I think there are issues with confi= gured subscriptions wrt/ CallHome because
of the text in RFC 8071= , 1.3:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8071#section-1.3

The transport and encoding leafs are identityrefs, w= hich means the possible values
are unknown and unbounded.

Do all possible values (including vendor values, which ar= e valid for the YANG leaf)
change the protocol enough so separate= security analysis are required?
I think a SecDir review may rais= e concerns wrt/ this issue.


Eric


/martin<= /u>

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0


Andy

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54415130F07 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 00:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 9328ABA9E063B; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:06:30 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:06:31 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:06:26 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: Robert Wilton , Andy Bierman , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] subscription-id management across applications Thread-Index: AQHUF5/EvP78w3D1R0Cdfjtp41Wm1qSGj0kAgAAAtoCAAAQ7gIABcg/w Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 07:06:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20180709163144.x3ltgh7spzbz26km@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <19b8635d-5a2d-f032-1341-8b6493c50c18@cisco.com> 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X-Spam-Score: -6.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nic.cz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id piZW0nmKCrgf for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 01:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A69ED130F01 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 01:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from birdie (unknown [IPv6:2001:1488:fffe:6:1f99:257b:62cc:c0d5]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8820E60921; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 10:16:03 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1531210563; bh=V8jo8DpBl8SiOnADO8PU5iuFjqTz3QwllMHMkoGnKOg=; h=From:To:Date; b=hY1OhmA4q53oTII/HdRJVkJaJ1psV3hQWYfWqVvLrDQq7GfejmjkaSvvlJPgLPJA8 ncyF/oYIsuyxGK8iRaGgJJJxPaX3Neh62y7y4wnQz+ttcZjAsHQ26baShIYW9uCpSE gdEhyskLu3P2HniC1TlxNxOiw8YImgGAKoHlv7P0= Message-ID: From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Mahesh Jethanandani Cc: Netconf Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 10:16:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <87lgakam4o.fsf@nic.cz> Organization: CZ.NIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.28.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.2 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Ladislav Lhotka] IETF 102 presentation request X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:16:09 -0000 Hi Mahesh, On Mon, 2018-07-09 at 17:23 -0700, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > Hi Lada, > > The requirement is that the draft would have to be submitted to the data > tracker, which it has, posted to the WG, which you did on June 28th and > discussed on the mailing list, which we see, albeit with just one response. Other useful criterion might be running code. > > I do not know how we missed this, but the good news is that we do have time. > Kent and I will accommodate the request, though the time slot would be more > like 7-10 min. depending on how much time we can squeeze out. Perhaps I was too fast with my request. :-) Thanks. See you in Montreal, Lada > > Cheers. > > > On Jul 9, 2018, at 12:44 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I sent in the following presentation request but now I see that I didn't > > get a session slot. So I am wondering - what are the criteria for > > selecting non-chartered items? > > > > Thanks, Lada > > > > -------------------- Start of forwarded message -------------------- > > From: Ladislav Lhotka > > Subject: IETF 102 presentation request > > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 08:40:29 +0200 > > > > Hi, > > > > Í'd like to present my draft: > > > > - RESTCONF with Transactions > > (draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00) > > - presenter: Ladislav Lhotka > > - time slot: 10-15 minutes > > > > Thanks, Lada > > > > -- > > Ladislav Lhotka > > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > -------------------- End of forwarded message -------------------- > > > > -- > > Ladislav Lhotka > > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com > -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Tue Jul 10 03:43:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15659130EED; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 03:43:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1DSVkqKEpnKr; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 03:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC58A130DD2; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 03:43:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1923; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531219392; x=1532428992; h=subject:to:references:from:cc:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=w4XHHiDZ3HS0a6Z7RNd4P+ciXPKFRAflymM1rUgL0MY=; b=mUyZpZ9aXs9BMlxcUU3HGZhF2NjwDCfBbVbH3V+SR0EVKIi1/u6FR55q ZXjIniGpTXHbQg8s8fR8/9FWUSUEpZdNNij8UKHQhxGmrfVG6xzcSzxTj C6K7wNTrxCrES0kCFAYDSlzNFTbcZ1DXzDaXWBe+sFHJ00ICo4r2RcfuR Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B4AQCJjERb/xbLJq1bGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYUYEoQiiGONNiuXLAuEbAKCSTcVAQIBAQIBAQJtKIU2AQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAwEjDwEFQRALDgoCAiYCAlcGAQwIAQGDHIF4CKo9ghyEW4NzgTqBC4lFP4E?= =?us-ascii?q?QJ4JqhGWDF4JVAplRCY8gBogWhUeHEoUqhVSBVyKBUjMaCBsVO4JqkFM+jhE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,334,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="5080876" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 10 Jul 2018 10:43:10 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6AAh8rW000536; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 10:43:09 GMT To: Kent Watsen , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <82A8420F-445C-42BD-9A47-DCF62A9864BC@juniper.net> <20180709173041.xkihqyccjcucjslj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <13FABA4A-C367-4E27-88FF-3EA48638249F@juniper.net> <20180709181338.anv7tfsylvhypwdz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <56fa68dd-09a0-fe34-b331-345c13c75925@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:43:08 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180709181338.anv7tfsylvhypwdz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] nmda-restconf operations (was: netconf-binary-encoding comments) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 10:43:14 -0000 On 09/07/2018 19:13, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 05:48:57PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: >> >>>> This isn't what I meant. To be more specific, I'm wondering if the nmda-restconf >>>> draft would benefit from having a sentence like: >>>> >>>> A RESTCONF server supporting NMDA datastores MAY implement the >>>> "ietf-netconf" [RFC6241] and "ietf-netconf-nmda" [I-D. ietf-netconf-nmda- >>>> netconf] modules to enable the NETCONF operations defined in those >>>> drafts to appear {+restconf}/operations resource. >>>> >>>> Note: I put "MAY" as RESTCONF may someday have a more native way to do this. >>>> >>> Well, "ietf-netconf" does not really support NMDA well and this is why >>> we have "ietf-netconf-nmda". Does not make much sense to point to >>> "ietf-netconf" in an NMDA document. >> But we'd still need lock, unlock, commit, commit-confirmed, etc., right? > Yep. OK.  Just to check - the client can determine which of these operations are supported via the feature statements in ietf-netconf.yang and the corresponding module entry in YANG library bis? I was wondering whether a GET request on {+restconf}/operations would also list all of the supported operations, but as far as I can see RFC 8040 doesn't specify this. > >> Maybe it's a moot point, since ietf-netconf-nmda requires that ietf-netconf >> is implemented too, but I thought being explicit would be helpful here. > As long as readers get the idea that implementing lets say edit-config > is perhaps not the best idea... It might be a good idea to explicitly list the NETCONF operations that are not well defined and hence SHOULD NOT be implemented. Thanks, Rob > >> So, adding something like this to nmda-restconf would be good? > It likely does not hurt to be clear that this option of using NETCONF > operations in RESTCONF exists. > > /js > From nobody Tue Jul 10 04:14:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietf.org Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AA1A130F75; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 04:14:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Christer Holmberg To: Cc: ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf.all@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153122128332.25153.10473559847025784058@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 04:14:43 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-06 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:14:44 -0000 Reviewer: Christer Holmberg Review result: Almost Ready I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-06 Reviewer: Christer Holmberg Review Date: 2018-07-10 IETF LC End Date: 2018-07-09 IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat Summary: The document is well written, and almost ready for publication. However, I have one comment that I would like the authors to address. Major issues: None Minor issues: Sometimes, when a draft updates an existing RFC, people ask whether implementations not implementing the draft are still compliant with the updated RFC. Based on discussions, the consensus seems to be that existing implementations are still compliant, and if one wants to mandate the new features a bis is needed. I would just like to confirm whether that applies also to this draft. If so, perhaps a note indicating that would be useful, in order to avoid discussions in future? Related to that, it would also be good to have an interoperability statement, saying that implementations that implement the draft will still work with implementations that do not. Nits/editorial comments: None From nobody Tue Jul 10 04:37:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2309F130E6F; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 04:37:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tfqzHF0_L5KY; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 04:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD752130E3C; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 04:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 7445222FEA30; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:37:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:37:38 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Robert Wilton Cc: Kent Watsen , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" , Qin Wu , Andy Bierman Message-ID: <20180710113738.2bh6nrnxj35ew6z4@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Robert Wilton , Kent Watsen , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" , Qin Wu , Andy Bierman References: <82A8420F-445C-42BD-9A47-DCF62A9864BC@juniper.net> <20180709173041.xkihqyccjcucjslj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <13FABA4A-C367-4E27-88FF-3EA48638249F@juniper.net> <20180709181338.anv7tfsylvhypwdz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <56fa68dd-09a0-fe34-b331-345c13c75925@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <56fa68dd-09a0-fe34-b331-345c13c75925@cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] nmda-restconf operations (was: netconf-binary-encoding comments) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:37:44 -0000 On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 11:43:08AM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote: > > > On 09/07/2018 19:13, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 05:48:57PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > > > > > This isn't what I meant. To be more specific, I'm wondering if the nmda-restconf > > > > > draft would benefit from having a sentence like: > > > > > > > > > > A RESTCONF server supporting NMDA datastores MAY implement the > > > > > "ietf-netconf" [RFC6241] and "ietf-netconf-nmda" [I-D. ietf-netconf-nmda- > > > > > netconf] modules to enable the NETCONF operations defined in those > > > > > drafts to appear {+restconf}/operations resource. > > > > > > > > > > Note: I put "MAY" as RESTCONF may someday have a more native way to do this. > > > > > > > > > Well, "ietf-netconf" does not really support NMDA well and this is why > > > > we have "ietf-netconf-nmda". Does not make much sense to point to > > > > "ietf-netconf" in an NMDA document. > > > But we'd still need lock, unlock, commit, commit-confirmed, etc., right? > > Yep. > OK. Just to check - the client can determine which of these operations are > supported via the feature statements in ietf-netconf.yang and the > corresponding module entry in YANG library bis? The YANG module ietf-netconf is at the end nothing special. So clients should treat it like any other module. If the yang-library says this module is implemented, then it is implemented and features will work exactly like they work for any other module. > > > Maybe it's a moot point, since ietf-netconf-nmda requires that ietf-netconf > > > is implemented too, but I thought being explicit would be helpful here. > > As long as readers get the idea that implementing lets say edit-config > > is perhaps not the best idea... > It might be a good idea to explicitly list the NETCONF operations that are > not well defined and hence SHOULD NOT be implemented. It is risky to repeat what other documents already discuss since doing so raises the risks of producing inconsistencies and it may create additional headaches when document updates are made later on. Note that draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-06 also extends and to handle NMDA datastores. I think a pointer to this I-D is relevant, I am less sure about ietf-netconf. Someone implementing likely figures out that without implement , this datastore is not very usable. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 10 05:53:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054BB130E83 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 05:53:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=J+hvO1Je; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=B/Jcpwo+ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ARHL-adqom6x for ; 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We really-really need a basic solution (dynamic-subscription with Netconf transport) now. IMHO we do have an agreement on this basic part of the function. This has been dragging along for a long time and we see a chance of other people choosing a completely different solution unless we manage to agree on the standard soon. I got comments from the ONAP community: YangPush could be used, it looks nice, but when will it be ready? I see the value of configured subscriptions, of multiple transports, etc. but if they keep the basic solution from being available I am screwed. I appreciate the good work of many people on this topic, but I would propose that we consider cutting out any feature from a "first release" of  YP unless we manage to get it accepted by the end of August in WGLC. regards Balazs P.S. Big bang versus agile? -- Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. Senior Specialist Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com From nobody Tue Jul 10 08:57:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E948130FF5 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:57:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xnb9ciLqqWTl for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58595130FAC for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:57:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=20062; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531238259; x=1532447859; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=X0mULWz06iGCePWUDuD5HeS62/+YRoGC8n2Y4JftXXY=; b=Q9+9LkKJbkx+DYqfDRmKmvIulGZTNZiw15/Te+gPDLOwCpTC1NhrNvSe FGKpS3lFQ2GZDc18adhKYQxXdjbDFN2VskhN+MbsUCqly8fQtzHM4lDi3 vS0vGJdV3xSpEz20MCW/RRf+CQSUUYEetOdCTl/epF1s5GJ1gh5ALuZYZ Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DIAABI1kRb/4kNJK1TCRkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGCU3ZjfygKg3CIBIw2ggqQJIUOgXoLI4RJAheCEyE0GAE?= =?us-ascii?q?CAQECAQECbRwMhTYBAQEBAyMKTBACAQgQBQMNGgMCAgIwFBECBA4FCIMZgRt?= =?us-ascii?q?kD6p5gS6ITIEzBYh5gVc/g3MugxkBAQIBgTMUJCiCS4JVApFsh2YJAoYHgmS?= =?us-ascii?q?GMY1oijiHMwIREwGBJB04gVJwFYMkixWFPQFvAYsNBYEpgRoBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,335,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="424953700" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 10 Jul 2018 15:57:38 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (xch-rtp-013.cisco.com [64.101.220.153]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6AFvbbC012416 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:57:37 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:57:37 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:57:37 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Andy Bierman CC: Martin Bjorklund , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? Thread-Index: AQHUFdzoQxUMgGR6+EyEsUfGkX4eo6SD/RKAgABHKwCAAA3RgIAA6BaAgAAi8ACAAGVWAIAABZ+AgABuS9CAAdcZAIAAkeGw Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:57:37 +0000 Message-ID: <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.35.164.39] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25fXCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? 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Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25fXCHRTP013ciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Jul 10 09:28:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FFA1126DBF for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 09:28:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id asqPc_1D95NG for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 09:28:22 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09:28:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 09:28:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 09:28:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Martin Bjorklund , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000040431b0570a79ee0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 16:28:25 -0000 --00000000000040431b0570a79ee0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 8:57 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman, July 9, 2018 11:07 PM > *...* > > > > On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote= : > > Hi Andy, > > > > *From:* Andy Bierman, July 8, 2018 12:26 PM > > On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 09:58:07AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > > Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > > You mean I think. > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not > > simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-) > > Well, the configured subscription is needed anyway in order for the > device to call home, so having the client create all configured > subscriptions as dynamic subscriptions as well doesn't seem quite > right. > > > > It is quite possible that multiple RPC operations are needed to get the > session > > started, such as reading the YANG library, and that the client > > is not ready to receive notifications as soon as the session is started. > > So an operation may help. > > > > > > But if the WG agrees that it is ok to send directly, > this issue goes away. > > > > Sitting idle is definitely OK. > > Accepting notifications right away is OK as an implementation feature > > outside the standard. > > > > If the NETCONF-Notif says that the NETCONF client for a configured > subscription must be able to handle accepting notifications right away, d= o > you see any standardization issue with this behavior in this context? > > > > > > Actually, I think there are issues with configured subscriptions wrt/ > CallHome because > > of the text in RFC 8071, 1.3: > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8071#section-1.3 > > > > The transport and encoding leafs are identityrefs, which means the > possible values > > are unknown and unbounded. > > > > Do all possible values (including vendor values, which are valid for the > YANG leaf) > > change the protocol enough so separate security analysis are required? > > I think a SecDir review may raise concerns wrt/ this issue. > > > > For any IETF defined transport, a =E2=80=9CTransport-Notif=E2=80= =9D draft > definitely needs to address any issues with Call Home or other such > mechanism. At next IETF, perhaps we will see if this can await concurren= t > resolution with the NETCONF client/server work. > > > > For configured subscriptions with a vendor specified transport identity, > it would be great to see SecDir sees any issues. I don=E2=80=99t see any= thing off > hand (as it is a vendor transport), but I certainly don=E2=80=99t claim a= ll their > perspectives. > > > I think all identityref objects need to document the conformance requirements as detailed as the WG can agree on. For this draft: 1) what values of "transport" MUST/SHOULD be implemented by all servers that advertise the "configured" feature? 2) what values of "transport" MUST/SHOULD be implemented if CallHome is used? 3) Are there any "encoding" value restrictions if CallHome is used? Text about XML required, JSON optional exists, but is JSON allowed in NETCONF? Is binary allowed in NETCONF? IMO this is OK if both peers opt-in to the selected encoding (and modify the NETCONF contract) Eric > Andy > > > Eric > > > /martin > > > > Andy > > > > > > Andy > > > --00000000000040431b0570a79ee0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 8:57 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) &l= t;evoit@cisco.com&= gt; wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman, July 9, 2018 11:07 PM
...

=C2=A0

On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) &l= t;evoit@cisco.com&= gt; wrote:

Hi Andy,

=C2=A0

From: Andy Bierman, July 8, 2018 12= :26 PM

On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Martin Bjorklund <= ;mbj@tail-f.com>= wrote:

Juergen Schoenwaelder &= lt;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 09:58:07AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > You mean <start-all-configured-subscriptions> I t= hink.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
>
> If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not<= br> > simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-)

Well, the configured subscription is needed anyway in order for the
device to call home, so having the client create all configured
subscriptions as dynamic subscriptions as well doesn't seem quite
right.

=C2=A0

It is quite possible that multiple RPC operations ar= e needed to get the session

started, such as reading the YANG library, and that = the client

is not ready to receive notifications as soon as the= session is started.

So an <activate-configured-sessions> operation= may help.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But if the WG agrees th= at it is ok to send <notification> directly,
this issue goes away.

=C2=A0

Sitting idle is definitely OK.

Accepting notifications right away is OK as an imple= mentation feature

outside the standard.

=C2=A0

<Eric> If= the NETCONF-Notif says that the NETCONF client for a configured subscripti= on must be able to handle accepting notifications right away, do you see any standardization issue w= ith this behavior in this context?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Actually, I think there are issues with configured s= ubscriptions wrt/ CallHome because

of the text in RFC 8071, 1.3:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The transport and encoding leafs are identityrefs, w= hich means the possible values

are unknown and unbounded.

=C2=A0

Do all possible values (including vendor values, whi= ch are valid for the YANG leaf)

change the protocol enough so separate security anal= ysis are required?

I think a SecDir review may raise concerns wrt/ this= issue.

=C2=A0

<Eric> For any IETF defined transport,= a =E2=80=9CTransport-Notif=E2=80=9D draft definitely needs to address any = issues with Call Home or other such mechanism.=C2=A0 At next IETF, perhaps we will see if this can await concurrent resolution with the NETCO= NF client/server work.

=C2=A0

For configured subscriptions with a vendor s= pecified transport identity, it would be great to see SecDir sees any issue= s.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t see anything off hand (as it is a vendor transport), but I certainly don=E2=80=99t claim all their pers= pectives.




I think all id= entityref objects need to document the conformance requirements as detailed=
as the WG can agree on. For this draft:

=C2=A01) what values of "transport" MUST/SHOULD be implemented b= y all servers that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0advertise the "config= ured" feature?
=C2=A02) what values of "transport"= MUST/SHOULD be implemented if CallHome is used?
=C2=A03) Are the= re any "encoding" value restrictions if CallHome is used?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Text about XML required, JSON optional exists, but i= s JSON allowed in NETCONF?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is binary allowed = in NETCONF? IMO this is OK if both peers opt-in to the selected encoding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (and modify the NETCONF contract)



Eric

=

Andy

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

Eric


/martin

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0


--00000000000040431b0570a79ee0-- From nobody Tue Jul 10 12:39:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80DA13104C for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:39:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VQE-UE8yNvkw for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A02130E18 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id AF92022FF537; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:39:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:39:40 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Andy Bierman , Martin Bjorklund , Netconf Message-ID: <20180710193940.jsslo3657wwee6ku@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Andy Bierman , Martin Bjorklund , Netconf References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 19:39:46 -0000 [I can't read this email exchange anymore because the plain text format is a mess. So this may be a bit out of context.] Lets not forget that RFC 8071 is pretty clear that after the call home procedure the NETCONF / RESTCONF protocol starts (see steps C8 / S6). And RFC 6241 is pretty clear that the NETCONF protocol starts with a exchange. The exchange is a very useful negotiation step. So in short, after RFC 8071 call home, you get NC/RC client and server starting with a exchange. Ideally, the client would indicate its readiness to receive unsolicited notifications before you push notifications to the client (and the notification sender may even be interested to know that it is sending notifications to a remote system that does not just drop them). So either the clients invokes an RPC to start the notification flow or, if you want to optimize one round trip, the client includes a special :willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications capability in the exchange. Note that possible protocol extensions like for example different encodings will likely be negotiated via the hello exchange as well. Hence, any attempts to optimize the exchange away may cause you some trouble down the road. /js On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 03:57:37PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > From: Andy Bierman, July 9, 2018 11:07 PM > ... > > On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) > wrote: > Hi Andy, > > From: Andy Bierman, July 8, 2018 12:26 PM > On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Martin Bjorklund > wrote: > Juergen Schoenwaelder > wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 08, 2018 at 09:58:07AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > > Andy Bierman > wrote: > > > > > > > > You mean I think. > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > If you do this, why does the client, after receiving a call home, not > > simply create dynamic subscriptions? ;-) > > Well, the configured subscription is needed anyway in order for the > device to call home, so having the client create all configured > subscriptions as dynamic subscriptions as well doesn't seem quite > right. > > It is quite possible that multiple RPC operations are needed to get the session > started, such as reading the YANG library, and that the client > is not ready to receive notifications as soon as the session is started. > So an operation may help. > > > But if the WG agrees that it is ok to send directly, > this issue goes away. > > Sitting idle is definitely OK. > Accepting notifications right away is OK as an implementation feature > outside the standard. > > If the NETCONF-Notif says that the NETCONF client for a configured subscription must be able to handle accepting notifications right away, do you see any standardization issue with this behavior in this context? > > > Actually, I think there are issues with configured subscriptions wrt/ CallHome because > of the text in RFC 8071, 1.3: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8071#section-1.3 > > The transport and encoding leafs are identityrefs, which means the possible values > are unknown and unbounded. > > Do all possible values (including vendor values, which are valid for the YANG leaf) > change the protocol enough so separate security analysis are required? > I think a SecDir review may raise concerns wrt/ this issue. > > For any IETF defined transport, a “Transport-Notif” draft definitely needs to address any issues with Call Home or other such mechanism. At next IETF, perhaps we will see if this can await concurrent resolution with the NETCONF client/server work. > > For configured subscriptions with a vendor specified transport identity, it would be great to see SecDir sees any issues. I don’t see anything off hand (as it is a vendor transport), but I certainly don’t claim all their perspectives. > > Eric > > Eric > > /martin > > Andy > > > Andy > -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 10 13:30:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0532F130E73 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:30:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lkzC5mHcJBzy for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 417CD130E35 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108161.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w6AK9gTn030027; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:12:04 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=OezmVLdEWRbzCDe1aGq+6hq4lK744HeADReuZm1bKvA=; b=b0XkuAHPd+J1yKQmsuLCkUgMPGxhfD1Itcfb7QIlStb1IU3emYbjleuKQhoLRj69INPo hnbCw0IzbvVFjDWPtRWH7BMUXyjYVIrXkwnn4t0XrbCihvY1usdARKLyDcMCERgwpZBC GrM0wRFg7Q2XJa6Skmo9Npe0OV8YoK5KoZAhMDV/+n5M8DsYJY2/6XB3xuj0WylV8Ugl TeRLOu2Z8EL9EyPluHqdRYLnFKuKGPJrtgXXrPuVaT1a8C45FdYx/oerOwSx85fgHP3h dDpAHs+Wp9rv47VbveY9Ic+W514tglHKIC+n5HMWr/EUB43s7f7qpq79G/o+NgTSHrds sw== Received: from nam02-cy1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-cys01nam02lp0049.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.49]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2k4wwn8s98-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:12:04 -0700 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.200.153) by BYAPR05MB4248.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (20.176.252.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.952.7; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:12:01 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc]) by BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc%4]) with mapi id 15.20.0952.013; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:12:01 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "Eric Voit (evoit)" CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? Thread-Index: AQHUFdzgMgOM7HOBqEO/3ZzYZXUeNKSDugSAgABHKwCAAA3RgIAA6BaAgAAi8ACAAGVWAIAABZ+AgACylACAAZLQAIAA11mAgAA+CgD//8X8gA== Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:12:01 +0000 Message-ID: <5CF84C90-B809-447B-AF5F-AE933FE3291E@juniper.net> References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180710193940.jsslo3657wwee6ku@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180710193940.jsslo3657wwee6ku@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BYAPR05MB4248; 7:ExYZU46M6n7U1pKPlq6DmSdrPPqBZdwW/5EhCxs8zh25JHjSby9JObTvYqj6+vEmVupidk/uCiRa+bGyezKTnoiDBWkP+sxMQO09/83Ypq8Skoxlq/Egj+F2i8bnrGXbrwdRpvhAxIDxRpGY4vwhd6B2gQ0CyWD1HJh8sU/zh3zakvLzU5yrj2KH/oqOY43m2Q1+ysflG/twFE4fra3bH0fMqmfhnMXgm4XLEfViaF9R7dTPX8OPIAG8kHN6fkvu x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d1c1b21d-278a-4cd0-7a25-08d5e6a1660c x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652040)(8989117)(5600053)(711020)(4534165)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990107)(48565401081)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:BYAPR05MB4248; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR05MB4248: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(8211001083)(6040522)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(3231311)(944501410)(52105095)(3002001)(93006095)(93001095)(10201501046)(6055026)(149027)(150027)(6041310)(20161123560045)(20161123558120)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123564045)(20161123562045)(6072148)(201708071742011)(7699016); SRVR:BYAPR05MB4248; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BYAPR05MB4248; x-forefront-prvs: 0729050452 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(979002)(396003)(346002)(39860400002)(376002)(136003)(366004)(189003)(199004)(68736007)(6486002)(3846002)(26005)(93886005)(186003)(2906002)(86362001)(6116002)(5250100002)(5660300001)(229853002)(106356001)(58126008)(2616005)(316002)(53936002)(36756003)(6246003)(256004)(83716003)(476003)(99286004)(2900100001)(486006)(110136005)(7736002)(478600001)(66066001)(45080400002)(82746002)(8936002)(11346002)(4326008)(105586002)(97736004)(305945005)(6512007)(81156014)(81166006)(8676002)(6436002)(102836004)(76176011)(14454004)(25786009)(6506007)(33656002)(446003)(969003)(989001)(999001)(1009001)(1019001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BYAPR05MB4248; H:BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: ifkxjLxKZk1eAP0ETEqi8GYLIX6G7reXIOlSVIwiTtWbjgbsJACSt+Xhnuxwi2qXHCyd8Xf6v8Mn0rvGYHQUaU1KUOVsKGGIBTdQr8UAmS/fSpTBWqQxB14Yu7VQf7jugimhRd/IHHqauBUZXMkJl34bVhjBIFOjzpRB02sJxUZxNJS7NH5xeRz0l9JVAvjek7vC0DiZtMRSe/EpTa10F3Y+tRclOTil7VwUZzUSrpu3f16lJfRWb6oikh4feZZpsmqG0Mk+mUAwm355epeq7i6lQVGULzUAqLtbXPnlH9Nx9HJHNbLbsNEzdBkZWAkmJyt1DJXYvKxhhcGy87Xl5yRcsZD+qZ7GQC4D8k6kdA8= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d1c1b21d-278a-4cd0-7a25-08d5e6a1660c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Jul 2018 20:12:01.7078 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB4248 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-10_07:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807100214 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:30:35 -0000 DQoNCj4gW0kgY2FuJ3QgcmVhZCB0aGlzIGVtYWlsIGV4Y2hhbmdlIGFueW1vcmUgYmVjYXVzZSB0 aGUgcGxhaW4gdGV4dA0KPiBmb3JtYXQgaXMgYSBtZXNzLiBTbyB0aGlzIG1heSBiZSBhIGJpdCBv dXQgb2YgY29udGV4dC5dDQoNCkkndmUgYWxzbyBub3RpY2VkIGFuIGluY3JlYXNlZCBtYW5nbGlu ZyBvZiByZXNwb25zZXMuICBTb21ldGltZXMgdGhleSdyZSBzbyBiYWQgdGhhdCBteSBpUGhvbmUn cyBlbWFpbCBjbGllbnQgKEFwcGxlJ3MgIk1haWwiIGFwcCkganVzdCBzaG93cyBhbiBlbXB0eSBt ZXNzYWdlIGFuZCBJIGhhdmUgdG8gdXNlIG15IGxhcHRvcCdzIGVtYWlsIGNsaWVudCBqdXN0IHRv IHZpZXcgdGhlIG1lc3NhZ2UuDQoNClRoZSBhYnNvbHV0ZSB3b3JzdCBpcyB3aGVuIEkgY2FuIHNl ZSB0aGF0IHNvbWVvbmUgaGFzIG1hZGUgYW4gZWZmb3J0IHRvIGNvbnZlcnQgYW4gZW1haWwgdG8g cGxhaW4tdGV4dCB3aXRoIGlubGluZWQgY29tbWVudHMsIGFuZCB5ZXQgdGhlIHJlc3BvbnNlIGNv bnZlcnRzIGl0IGJhY2sgdG8gSFRNTCB3aXRoIHRoZSAiaW5kZW50IGJhciIgb24gdGhlIGxlZnQs IGV0Yy4gDQoNCkkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyB3aGF0IGFsbCBlbWFpbCBjbGllbnRzIGZvbGtzIGFyZSB1 c2luZywgYnV0IHBsZWFzZSBsb29rIGF0IHlvdXIgcHJlZmVyZW5jZXMgdG8gc2VlIHdoYXQgeW91 IGNhbiBkbyB0byBpbXByb3ZlIHRoZSBzZXR0aW5ncy4gIEZvciBpbnN0YW5jZSwgd2l0aCBNaWNy b3NvZnQgT3V0bG9vayBmb3IgTWFjLCB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIHNldHRpbmcgY2FsbGVkICJXaGVuIHJl cGx5aW5nIG9yIGZvcndhcmRpbmcgZW1haWwsIHVzZSB0aGUgZm9ybWF0IG9mIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5h bCBtZXNzYWdlIiB0aGF0IEkndmUgZm91bmQgaGVscHMgYSBsb3QuDQoNClRoYW5rcywNCktlbnQN Cg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Jul 10 13:37:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB79D13104F for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:37:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A9sPoCiJ4MVU for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10A29130E99 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108157.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w6AKXhkM017813; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:37:32 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=RI2obXF04CbExdVKdIqSmtxekOQX12QMLhUH2MXmtbM=; b=1G8D8bM5b4HkXSJKn7wt9nbWhxtvWBXFZvUr3Bpn2OTIhTCXuW8tiSOk/2eH7T4P0kKb cLZeZjUTK4Lf2wUVWJ2OkcsvAbdAJbc7Myo/b2f99Ei1X1cRXcF+a/PUIOT+WWmuokxZ hJGbd+X5OtNWu5ulf5oNBg5ahehRgerA0StPT8wJY+1YQ3WmOwDhzZQKTax+AU+DE44p qK355pMul2RUgzj1kTPKXPhmrQLJROVYOGVRLbYJoGeduVnITBbp2/Zm5zmjwKs5rQDS ywOl16vrQu65kPyPCCJefuQm2yYyF/JS8/nESK5tDn1O4Dum1YRcrF6L3Yr7dPF/T7M2 mw== Received: from nam05-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam05lp0243.outbound.protection.outlook.com [216.32.181.243]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2k4s8jsdt2-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:37:32 -0700 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.200.153) by BYAPR05MB4295.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.202.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.952.10; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:37:30 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc]) by BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc%4]) with mapi id 15.20.0952.013; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:37:30 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "Eric Voit (evoit)" CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? Thread-Index: AQHUFdzgMgOM7HOBqEO/3ZzYZXUeNKSDugSAgABHKwCAAA3RgIAA6BaAgAAi8ACAAGVWAIAABZ+AgACylACAAZLQAIAA11mAgAA+CgD//80aAA== Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:37:30 +0000 Message-ID: <051A20E4-26D0-41C9-B93D-2A094E46EFBA@juniper.net> References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180710193940.jsslo3657wwee6ku@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180710193940.jsslo3657wwee6ku@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BYAPR05MB4295; 7:NUhjT1Fu0ejGgnoeeBDAQJr5lRwKk8Rbs3cSHMTvHdR00d4gdU2oC0cklBlqxgUlFOjMgG+g2kiCbses6fhE47kA3sdXmisO+pqJcF12QkMmH2WhRZ+smUVAaSizPQWginQuwpzpPCZHHpR4P3SFLVRFZkmWCoLrEwSUu00eSHT/aW7fEp73tJcYQePyLf78EMxiAOW5l8Jx/IAl087RyzSlrld8+8SX0HvbZP+9QOTPvShvf9jX3bVhehRfRQIg x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 66acb5e6-7d5f-4051-cf71-08d5e6a4f548 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652040)(8989117)(5600053)(711020)(4534165)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990107)(48565401081)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:BYAPR05MB4295; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR05MB4295: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(158342451672863); x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(8211001083)(6040522)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(3231311)(944501410)(52105095)(3002001)(10201501046)(93006095)(93001095)(6055026)(149027)(150027)(6041310)(20161123560045)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123562045)(20161123558120)(20161123564045)(6072148)(201708071742011)(7699016); SRVR:BYAPR05MB4295; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BYAPR05MB4295; x-forefront-prvs: 0729050452 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(396003)(366004)(136003)(39860400002)(376002)(346002)(199004)(189003)(33656002)(6436002)(97736004)(5660300001)(229853002)(6512007)(66066001)(6246003)(82746002)(14454004)(5250100002)(4326008)(53936002)(478600001)(6486002)(106356001)(36756003)(105586002)(25786009)(83716003)(68736007)(3846002)(8676002)(6116002)(81156014)(316002)(186003)(7736002)(305945005)(110136005)(58126008)(86362001)(2900100001)(486006)(2906002)(11346002)(93886005)(6506007)(14444005)(81166006)(256004)(26005)(102836004)(99286004)(476003)(8936002)(446003)(76176011)(2616005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BYAPR05MB4295; H:BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: Ay7+aGQS/os0bCcuqu0vhUulJUi1UX6pi8LtetnYr8oeotUlEeha2fiNiDUbF8As9y1Eescq1M/IP1AAH9BRessAmw6mmZr+HxzDj89X4qK9ocqUHeu9laDGhDXOAegdQcaiRpThJT/yJqsz+E/RizHsQU1bNPddKD5Q83kK5ikhFwifn2E9y4edoWwESPxaEkPNx/JTQQJaEcjJKhyYrw4aSdwg9I7YxpL9qfoasuijH45JS3uVRhhKr/2c76Ye+3QSJd2SzaBDcRDKLx0urYZg2GYCln7+FaSdRojDOxR1r62PZhbk3RjKtpT07UPFHu86p8UO4PL7M8Id34AOYvUlzA0o9t+jXZJ6QQM0gYg= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 66acb5e6-7d5f-4051-cf71-08d5e6a4f548 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Jul 2018 20:37:30.5576 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB4295 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-10_07:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=678 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807100218 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:37:37 -0000 DQoNCj4gU28gaW4gc2hvcnQsIGFmdGVyIFJGQyA4MDcxIGNhbGwgaG9tZSwgeW91IGdldCBOQy9S QyBjbGllbnQgYW5kIHNlcnZlcg0KPiBzdGFydGluZyB3aXRoIGEgPGhlbGxvPiBleGNoYW5nZS4g SWRlYWxseSwgdGhlIGNsaWVudCB3b3VsZCBpbmRpY2F0ZQ0KPiBpdHMgcmVhZGluZXNzIHRvIHJl Y2VpdmUgdW5zb2xpY2l0ZWQgbm90aWZpY2F0aW9ucyBiZWZvcmUgeW91IHB1c2gNCj4gbm90aWZp Y2F0aW9ucyB0byB0aGUgY2xpZW50IChhbmQgdGhlIG5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbiBzZW5kZXIgbWF5IGV2 ZW4gYmUNCj4gaW50ZXJlc3RlZCB0byBrbm93IHRoYXQgaXQgaXMgc2VuZGluZyBub3RpZmljYXRp b25zIHRvIGEgcmVtb3RlIHN5c3RlbQ0KPiB0aGF0IGRvZXMgbm90IGp1c3QgZHJvcCB0aGVtKS4g U28gZWl0aGVyIHRoZSBjbGllbnRzIGludm9rZXMgYW4gUlBDIHRvDQo+IHN0YXJ0IHRoZSBub3Rp ZmljYXRpb24gZmxvdyBvciwgaWYgeW91IHdhbnQgdG8gb3B0aW1pemUgb25lIHJvdW5kDQo+IHRy aXAsIHRoZSBjbGllbnQgaW5jbHVkZXMgYSBzcGVjaWFsDQo+DQo+ICA6d2lsbGluZy10by1yZWNl aXZlLXVuc29saWNpdGVkLW5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbnMNCj4NCj4gY2FwYWJpbGl0eSBpbiB0aGUgPGhl bGxvPiBleGNoYW5nZS4NCg0KSSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IGEgY2xpZW50LWFkdmVydGlzZWQgY2FwYWJp bGl0eSB3b3VsZCBiZSBnb29kbmVzcyBoZXJlLCBidXQNCml0IG9ubHkgd29ya3MgZm9yIE5DLWNs aWVudHMsIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIGNvcm9sbGFyeSBmb3IgUkMtY2xpZW50cy4gIA0KDQpNYXliZSBj bGllbnRzIHNob3VsZCBzZW5kIGEgIndpbGxpbmctdG8tcmVjZWl2ZS11bnNvbGljaXRlZC1ub3Rp ZmljYXRpb25zIg0KUlBDIGluc3RlYWQ/DQoNCg0KS2VudCAvLyBjb250cmlidXRvcg0KDQoNCg0K DQoNCg== From nobody Tue Jul 10 14:00:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B261310C3 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:59:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JI2aP5_IdFhT for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE67D131071 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id E7BA922FF6EA; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:59:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:59:55 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Kent Watsen Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Netconf Message-ID: <20180710205955.nt3hc34v2mwdngi2@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Kent Watsen , "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Netconf References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180710193940.jsslo3657wwee6ku@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <051A20E4-26D0-41C9-B93D-2A094E46EFBA@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <051A20E4-26D0-41C9-B93D-2A094E46EFBA@juniper.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:59:59 -0000 On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 08:37:30PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > So in short, after RFC 8071 call home, you get NC/RC client and server > > starting with a exchange. Ideally, the client would indicate > > its readiness to receive unsolicited notifications before you push > > notifications to the client (and the notification sender may even be > > interested to know that it is sending notifications to a remote system > > that does not just drop them). So either the clients invokes an RPC to > > start the notification flow or, if you want to optimize one round > > trip, the client includes a special > > > > :willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications > > > > capability in the exchange. > > I agree that a client-advertised capability would be goodness here, but > it only works for NC-clients, there is no corollary for RC-clients. > > Maybe clients should send a "willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications" > RPC instead? RFC 8040 (RESTCONF) uses SSE and the client has to fetch an event stream resource in order to receive events (section 6.3). This is not a big surprise since HTTP 1/1 is purely client driven. This in fact implies that the client knows the event stream resource. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 10 14:13:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 306791310E6 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 14:13:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rShKL4JqL9d8 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 14:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA2EC130DE1 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 14:13:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1638; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531257189; x=1532466789; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=lewjtT6i4gh3h2hRcHjPmReqD8hCEOG9BWQauks+5HI=; b=UFAerYMk0/+DNrbO9NDLB5i3GZX0RqNmDaGuo61N1sZ339AXY0RTsr8l aqAgcTUlwmyyA0OLLION5JNZSAigNZNi5huSMLXM+jVfWnHtnxkyuAHF9 8XjhyfJ2B6tUG01LkkldfmhmOQHdHQtFXF5UJvnhlbFpt9mcRu5uJDdsZ Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CKAgDyIEVb/4QNJK1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYNJgWIoCoNwiASMOIIKgziRehSBZguEbAIXghMhNBgBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAgEBAm0ohTYBAQEDASMRRQULAgEIDgcFAiYCAgIwFRACBAENBQiDFIF8CKs?= =?us-ascii?q?igS6IT4E4gQuHboFXP4NzLoRIARECAYMfglUCmVIJAo8cgUuED4JrhSORawI?= =?us-ascii?q?REwGBJB04DVRxcBWDJJBTb4w1gRoBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,335,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="141239377" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 10 Jul 2018 21:13:09 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (xch-rtp-013.cisco.com [64.101.220.153]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6ALD8b6009019 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:13:09 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:13:08 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:13:08 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Kent Watsen , Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? Thread-Index: AQHUFdzoQxUMgGR6+EyEsUfGkX4eo6SD/RKAgABHKwCAAA3RgIAA6BaAgAAi8ACAAGVWAIAABZ+AgABuS9CAAdcZAIAAkeGwgACDggCAAAkKgP//yJSQ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:13:08 +0000 Message-ID: <83da213be31548348f988d0d1c276a58@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180710193940.jsslo3657wwee6ku@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <5CF84C90-B809-447B-AF5F-AE933FE3291E@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <5CF84C90-B809-447B-AF5F-AE933FE3291E@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.41.32.86] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:13:15 -0000 SSBzZW5kIG5ldyBlbWFpbHMgdG8gdGhlIElFVEYgaW4gdGV4dCBmb3JtLiAgSSByZXBseSB0byBl bWFpbHMgaW4gdGhlIGZvcm1hdCBvZiB0aGUgbGFzdCBzZW5kZXIuDQoNCklmIGV2ZXJ5Ym9keSBm b2xsb3dlZCBzdWNoIGEgY29udmVudGlvbiwgbm90aGluZyB3b3VsZCBkaXZlcmdlIGZyb20gdGV4 dC4NCg0KRXJpYw0KDQo+IEZyb206IEtlbnQgV2F0c2VuIDxrd2F0c2VuQGp1bmlwZXIubmV0Pg0K PiANCj4gPiBbSSBjYW4ndCByZWFkIHRoaXMgZW1haWwgZXhjaGFuZ2UgYW55bW9yZSBiZWNhdXNl IHRoZSBwbGFpbiB0ZXh0DQo+ID4gZm9ybWF0IGlzIGEgbWVzcy4gU28gdGhpcyBtYXkgYmUgYSBi aXQgb3V0IG9mIGNvbnRleHQuXQ0KPiANCj4gSSd2ZSBhbHNvIG5vdGljZWQgYW4gaW5jcmVhc2Vk IG1hbmdsaW5nIG9mIHJlc3BvbnNlcy4gIFNvbWV0aW1lcyB0aGV5J3JlIHNvDQo+IGJhZCB0aGF0 IG15IGlQaG9uZSdzIGVtYWlsIGNsaWVudCAoQXBwbGUncyAiTWFpbCIgYXBwKSBqdXN0IHNob3dz IGFuIGVtcHR5DQo+IG1lc3NhZ2UgYW5kIEkgaGF2ZSB0byB1c2UgbXkgbGFwdG9wJ3MgZW1haWwg Y2xpZW50IGp1c3QgdG8gdmlldyB0aGUgbWVzc2FnZS4NCj4gDQo+IFRoZSBhYnNvbHV0ZSB3b3Jz dCBpcyB3aGVuIEkgY2FuIHNlZSB0aGF0IHNvbWVvbmUgaGFzIG1hZGUgYW4gZWZmb3J0IHRvDQo+ IGNvbnZlcnQgYW4gZW1haWwgdG8gcGxhaW4tdGV4dCB3aXRoIGlubGluZWQgY29tbWVudHMsIGFu ZCB5ZXQgdGhlIHJlc3BvbnNlDQo+IGNvbnZlcnRzIGl0IGJhY2sgdG8gSFRNTCB3aXRoIHRoZSAi aW5kZW50IGJhciIgb24gdGhlIGxlZnQsIGV0Yy4NCj4gDQo+IEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyB3aGF0IGFs bCBlbWFpbCBjbGllbnRzIGZvbGtzIGFyZSB1c2luZywgYnV0IHBsZWFzZSBsb29rIGF0IHlvdXIN Cj4gcHJlZmVyZW5jZXMgdG8gc2VlIHdoYXQgeW91IGNhbiBkbyB0byBpbXByb3ZlIHRoZSBzZXR0 aW5ncy4gIEZvciBpbnN0YW5jZSwgd2l0aA0KPiBNaWNyb3NvZnQgT3V0bG9vayBmb3IgTWFjLCB0 aGVyZSBpcyBhIHNldHRpbmcgY2FsbGVkICJXaGVuIHJlcGx5aW5nIG9yDQo+IGZvcndhcmRpbmcg ZW1haWwsIHVzZSB0aGUgZm9ybWF0IG9mIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5hbCBtZXNzYWdlIiB0aGF0IEkndmUg Zm91bmQgaGVscHMNCj4gYSBsb3QuDQo+IA0KPiBUaGFua3MsDQo+IEtlbnQNCj4gDQo+IA0KDQo= From nobody Tue Jul 10 15:27:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF6B131196 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:27:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PtTJ2Qxwx-Dr for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D966130E86 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:27:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2636; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531261645; x=1532471245; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=O4vHKW7vUVCbDTNKdppK6o/DL6RY1Cjf54G8130k4NE=; b=bbguLZj/lARoUVPHk9pvve0fAX20+ZQuZCeDVaLFbYfSye/lpeGwi1uV x1tId48kJfb5QpFFVUIn9xNFVLa2d09+dBa/IwL3BvrJ/zgaHXsVDDyMq 3NwgHy7KB1RIvWlomSQQjKftbD+Mr1d1Wr6RJ82Gb0Qz8g2RUOV6sMUEt M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CMAgAVMkVb/4MNJK1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYNJY38oCoNwiASMOIIKgziReoF6CxgLhANGAheCEyE0GAE?= =?us-ascii?q?CAQECAQECbRwMhTYBAQEDAQEBIRETJwsFCwIBCA4HAwICCR0CAgIlCxUQAgQ?= =?us-ascii?q?BDQUIgxmBdwgPqwaBLoMlhSqBMwWBC4dugVc/g3MugxkBAYFKLYJqglUCmVI?= =?us-ascii?q?JAo8cjWiRawIREwGBJB04gVJwFTuCaYsVhT5vjDWBGgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,335,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="140698477" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 10 Jul 2018 22:27:24 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6AMROPa023685 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:27:24 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 18:27:24 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 18:27:24 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Lou Berger , Kent Watsen , "Juergen Schoenwaelder" CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? Thread-Index: AQHUFdzoQxUMgGR6+EyEsUfGkX4eo6SD/RKAgABHKwCAAA3RgIAA6BaAgAAi8ACAAGVWAIAABZ+AgABuS9CAAdcZAIAAkeGwgACDggCAABApAIAAAZAA///ZGeA= Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:27:23 +0000 Message-ID: <8ec9acc459be4f51a653086989b1d387@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180710193940.jsslo3657wwee6ku@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <051A20E4-26D0-41C9-B93D-2A094E46EFBA@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.41.32.86] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:27:30 -0000 PiBGcm9tOiBMb3UgQmVyZ2VyLCBKdWx5IDEwLCAyMDE4IDQ6NDMgUE0NCj4gDQo+IE9uIDcvMTAv MjAxOCA0OjM3IFBNLCBLZW50IFdhdHNlbiB3cm90ZToNCj4gPg0KPiA+PiBTbyBpbiBzaG9ydCwg YWZ0ZXIgUkZDIDgwNzEgY2FsbCBob21lLCB5b3UgZ2V0IE5DL1JDIGNsaWVudCBhbmQNCj4gPj4g c2VydmVyIHN0YXJ0aW5nIHdpdGggYSA8aGVsbG8+IGV4Y2hhbmdlLiBJZGVhbGx5LCB0aGUgY2xp ZW50IHdvdWxkDQo+ID4+IGluZGljYXRlIGl0cyByZWFkaW5lc3MgdG8gcmVjZWl2ZSB1bnNvbGlj aXRlZCBub3RpZmljYXRpb25zIGJlZm9yZQ0KPiA+PiB5b3UgcHVzaCBub3RpZmljYXRpb25zIHRv IHRoZSBjbGllbnQgKGFuZCB0aGUgbm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIHNlbmRlciBtYXkNCj4gPj4gZXZlbiBi ZSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIHRvIGtub3cgdGhhdCBpdCBpcyBzZW5kaW5nIG5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbnMgdG8g YQ0KPiA+PiByZW1vdGUgc3lzdGVtIHRoYXQgZG9lcyBub3QganVzdCBkcm9wIHRoZW0pLiBTbyBl aXRoZXIgdGhlIGNsaWVudHMNCj4gPj4gaW52b2tlcyBhbiBSUEMgdG8gc3RhcnQgdGhlIG5vdGlm aWNhdGlvbiBmbG93IG9yLCBpZiB5b3Ugd2FudCB0bw0KPiA+PiBvcHRpbWl6ZSBvbmUgcm91bmQg dHJpcCwgdGhlIGNsaWVudCBpbmNsdWRlcyBhIHNwZWNpYWwNCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4gICA6d2lsbGlu Zy10by1yZWNlaXZlLXVuc29saWNpdGVkLW5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbnMNCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4gY2FwYWJp bGl0eSBpbiB0aGUgPGhlbGxvPiBleGNoYW5nZS4NCj4gPiBJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgYSBjbGllbnQt YWR2ZXJ0aXNlZCBjYXBhYmlsaXR5IHdvdWxkIGJlIGdvb2RuZXNzIGhlcmUsDQo+ID4gYnV0IGl0 IG9ubHkgd29ya3MgZm9yIE5DLWNsaWVudHMsIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIGNvcm9sbGFyeSBmb3IgUkMt Y2xpZW50cy4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IE1heWJlIGNsaWVudHMgc2hvdWxkIHNlbmQgYSAid2lsbGluZy10 by1yZWNlaXZlLXVuc29saWNpdGVkLW5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbnMiDQo+ID4gUlBDIGluc3RlYWQ/DQo+ IG9yIGFuIGFuIGVycm9yIHdoZW4gYW4gdW5zb2xpY2l0ZWQgbm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIGlzIHJlY2Vp dmVkIGJ5IGEgY2xpZW50IHRoYXQNCj4gZG9lc24ndCBzdXBwb3J0IGl0Lg0KPiAob3B0aW1pemlu ZyBmb3Igd2hhdCBJIHRoaW5rIHN1c3BlY3Qgd2lsbCBiZSB0aGUgY29tbW9uIGNhc2UgaW4gdGhl IGxvbmcNCj4gdGVybS4uLikNCg0KRWZmZWN0aXZlbHkgdGhpcyBpcyB3aGF0IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYt bmV0Y29uZi1yZXN0Y29uZi1ub3RpZiwgc2VjdGlvbiA0LjIgZGVmaW5lcyBub3cuICBBIHN1Y2Nl c3NmdWwgUE9TVCBvZiBhICJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb24tc3RhcnRlZCIgbm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIG11c3Qg b2NjdXIgYmVmb3JlIGV2ZW50cyBhcmUgc2VudC4gIEZhaWx1cmUgdG8gcmVjZWl2ZXIgYW4gT0sg Zm9yIHRoZSBQT1NUIG1lYW5zIGFuIGVycm9yIHRvIHRoZSBwdWJsaXNoZXIuDQoNClNvbWUgZm9y bSBvZiBSRVNUQ09ORiBDYWxsIEhvbWUgd2l0aCBjYXBhYmlsaXR5IGFkdmVydGlzZW1lbnQgY291 bGQgYWxzbyBvY2N1ciBiZWZvcmUgdGhlICJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb24tc3RhcnRlZCIgUE9TVC4gIEhv d2V2ZXIgdGhpcyBhZHZlcnRpc2VtZW50IG9mIGNsaWVudCBjYXBhYmlsaXRpZXMgbWlnaHQgbm90 IGJlIG5lZWRlZCBmb3IgYWxsIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucy4NCg0KRXJpYw0KDQo+IExvdQ0KPiAN Cj4gPg0KPiA+IEtlbnQgLy8gY29udHJpYnV0b3INCj4gPg0KPiA+DQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+DQo+ ID4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiBO ZXRjb25mIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+IE5ldGNvbmZAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gPiBodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL25ldGNvbmYNCj4gPg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Jul 10 15:34:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDEF130E97 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:34:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IsINQSqg3QjC for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AD80130E6D for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 062B822FF9BB; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:34:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:34:18 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Lou Berger Cc: Kent Watsen , "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Netconf Message-ID: <20180710223418.4wfokk4ld6hz2kw3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Lou Berger , Kent Watsen , "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Netconf References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180710193940.jsslo3657wwee6ku@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <051A20E4-26D0-41C9-B93D-2A094E46EFBA@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:34:23 -0000 On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 04:43:06PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote: > > > On 7/10/2018 4:37 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > > So in short, after RFC 8071 call home, you get NC/RC client and server > > > starting with a exchange. Ideally, the client would indicate > > > its readiness to receive unsolicited notifications before you push > > > notifications to the client (and the notification sender may even be > > > interested to know that it is sending notifications to a remote system > > > that does not just drop them). So either the clients invokes an RPC to > > > start the notification flow or, if you want to optimize one round > > > trip, the client includes a special > > > > > > :willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications > > > > > > capability in the exchange. > > I agree that a client-advertised capability would be goodness here, but > > it only works for NC-clients, there is no corollary for RC-clients. > > > > Maybe clients should send a "willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications" > > RPC instead? > or an an error when an unsolicited notification is received by a client that > doesn't support it. > (optimizing for what I think suspect will be the common case in the long > term...) > There is no error message that a client can return in NETCONF for a notification message the client has received. The client can locally log an error but that won't impress the sender. So the client closes the connection and the server calls home again... /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 10 15:35:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0257C131023 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.844 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.844 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, THIS_AD=1.857] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vV1VZeihUr9y for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8174130E6D for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108156.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w6AMY7ug006895; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:35:36 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=Ik6rbMWPjdWZTdyHO3ddbH6x3agoqBCn26nuEOsweew=; b=szyiHN3le4Yr3rZGzTWSRmMxznDnhyhlXA7mRzfxITjzdEPbX/ALfdqdmBlrfpOiUJ6/ Ud/F0gl+hUq+xfeThquXwqtcl1Lh4tme+nNrRrYFkVgpw27HGzvl8QBhdppz20Jqfqez /CtOylOpcRNrk6O3bzHQAOy5qTN44T+pfjxR1qQwypncKcM2ixZ3K3m4TOST/O57reT4 7MOfuY6IW0ya2aaLescZBgpNZzUDqKoCxoyeCCh1dw0UPlt0NfCfc+KzBrGOspoD9v0K OUiXp8GZFXhhv8wU6wHquFOaQQEcKzb8+ne5KIzQwo1YQsqUTvoL2M3JItpMiwceogSq ow== Received: from nam04-co1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam04lp0052.outbound.protection.outlook.com [216.32.181.52]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2k54bag5qc-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:35:36 -0700 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.200.153) by BYAPR05MB4679.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.233.81) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.952.8; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:35:34 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc]) by BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc%4]) with mapi id 15.20.0952.013; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:35:34 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Lou Berger , Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? 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X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:35:40 -0000 DQo+IEVmZmVjdGl2ZWx5IHRoaXMgaXMgd2hhdCBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLW5ldGNvbmYtcmVzdGNvbmYt bm90aWYsIHNlY3Rpb24gNC4yDQo+IGRlZmluZXMgbm93LiAgQSBzdWNjZXNzZnVsIFBPU1Qgb2Yg YSAic3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uLXN0YXJ0ZWQiIG5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbg0KPiBtdXN0IG9jY3VyIGJlZm9y ZSBldmVudHMgYXJlIHNlbnQuICBGYWlsdXJlIHRvIHJlY2VpdmVyIGFuIE9LIGZvciB0aGUgUE9T VA0KPiBtZWFucyBhbiBlcnJvciB0byB0aGUgcHVibGlzaGVyLg0KDQpCdXQgaWYgd2UgdXNlIFJF U1RDT05GIENhbGwgSG9tZSwgdGhlIHJlY2VpdmVyIGlzIHRoZSBIVFRQLWNsaWVudCwgY2FuIGFu DQpIVFRQIGNsaWVudCBwcm9jZXNzIGEgUE9TVD8NCg0KDQo+IFNvbWUgZm9ybSBvZiBSRVNUQ09O RiBDYWxsIEhvbWUgd2l0aCBjYXBhYmlsaXR5IGFkdmVydGlzZW1lbnQgY291bGQgYWxzbw0KPiBv Y2N1ciBiZWZvcmUgdGhlICJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb24tc3RhcnRlZCIgUE9TVC4gIEhvd2V2ZXIsIHRo aXMgYWR2ZXJ0aXNlbWVudA0KPiBvZiBjbGllbnQgY2FwYWJpbGl0aWVzIG1pZ2h0IG5vdCBiZSBu ZWVkZWQgZm9yIGFsbCBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMuDQoNCkkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyBob3cuICBSRVNU Q09ORiBDYWxsIEhvbWUganVzdCBzdGFydHMgdGhlIFJFU1RDT05GIHByb3RvY29sLCBhbmQNCnRo ZXJlIGlzIG5vIGNhcGFiaWxpdHktZXhjaGFuZ2UgaW4gUkVTVENPTkYuDQoNCg0KS2VudCAvLyBj b250cmlidXRvcg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Jul 10 15:43:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E271311ED for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:43:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B9qB7TJTwSWi for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32AFC1311C1 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 84D7722FFA35; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:43:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:43:11 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Lou Berger , Kent Watsen , Netconf Message-ID: <20180710224311.5odvsmhvpfgi4uat@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Lou Berger , Kent Watsen , Netconf References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180710193940.jsslo3657wwee6ku@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <051A20E4-26D0-41C9-B93D-2A094E46EFBA@juniper.net> <8ec9acc459be4f51a653086989b1d387@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8ec9acc459be4f51a653086989b1d387@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:43:22 -0000 On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:27:23PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > From: Lou Berger, July 10, 2018 4:43 PM > > > > On 7/10/2018 4:37 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > > >> So in short, after RFC 8071 call home, you get NC/RC client and > > >> server starting with a exchange. Ideally, the client would > > >> indicate its readiness to receive unsolicited notifications before > > >> you push notifications to the client (and the notification sender may > > >> even be interested to know that it is sending notifications to a > > >> remote system that does not just drop them). So either the clients > > >> invokes an RPC to start the notification flow or, if you want to > > >> optimize one round trip, the client includes a special > > >> > > >> :willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications > > >> > > >> capability in the exchange. > > > I agree that a client-advertised capability would be goodness here, > > > but it only works for NC-clients, there is no corollary for RC-clients. > > > > > > Maybe clients should send a "willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications" > > > RPC instead? > > or an an error when an unsolicited notification is received by a client that > > doesn't support it. > > (optimizing for what I think suspect will be the common case in the long > > term...) > > Effectively this is what draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif, section 4.2 defines now. A successful POST of a "subscription-started" notification must occur before events are sent. Failure to receiver an OK for the POST means an error to the publisher. > > Some form of RESTCONF Call Home with capability advertisement could also occur before the "subscription-started" POST. However this advertisement of client capabilities might not be needed for all implementations. > I fail to understand section 4.2. The first sentence already leaves me puzzled: With HTTP2 connectivity established, a POST of each new "subscription-started" state change notification messages will be addressed to HTTP augmentation code on the receiver capable of accepting and acknowledging to subscription state change notifications. What does this say? And why is this HTTP2 specific? The publisher is the RC server, no? So the RC server does HTTP transactions agains the client? This does not seem to have anything to do with how the call home RFC works. I am not saying that what Figure 3 shows won't work, it just has nothing to do with call home. You are reversing the RC client and server roles, call home only reverses the connection establishment roles. Big difference. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 10 15:53:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B17A131201 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HkgtG-Rk6Fai for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22b.google.com (mail-lf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E9C3131220 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id j8-v6so19690570lfb.4 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DTSd0imIHTlwYH5+lIbHtp8u++gYJW0uu8yPmuEXScU=; b=WhOP/aKAEn2/zPm3UxqEWbXmqrKysMQTF3efz+IY8CETU0a7O2WdlsoXnbNyz5uESB ttQcHKa3KRbyq4636+kp0FjnEtPdWTaKQEJLphbeZA4GCf4eNAWS7Y0XVCR6vFJty32W k73wM5H4cpmCdGISW5pCoJtNF6U9aw+2DWxQwxMTba6L9QRGUuKJgDeTVEKG9Dzujc2F eD5uyYwZOOb8kbdMi0WHyFf9Uu1r2epnR1kSVTmM+EXo8oTb096DXAcGmLSYBXOO1mtP 2GrNPcBIRuucgTNMiSROD1NVIbb9ntFV6y9cyYnJV50Xv8eDXHdESNKqIZR65sr3T5wD KmwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=DTSd0imIHTlwYH5+lIbHtp8u++gYJW0uu8yPmuEXScU=; b=OxOPQytOvK7xafWGLmdfFvldostUOyC2iCJDnv6FdZH3uFF0FhX9ghPeBZBoRK1gHV s5/O99sb3+xRGcJVWQsKkGnhHt6Csu3ovDtBNMkZs0TBMXdgrJ1WEolSbKRjA+3lV2GS UJmyDtPEboSeJobpObOWFI1GhEpAOx/RnxclabH6YBTR8nqAoj5YvU02p6Lb0qIPa2CH 6S4pO1JKPbAyNSA9mMccvUaqDqqYwS4RRMegrErMwRhvCjDgWtPD2p+ad2r/EV1I5kvi 3HPRYxrx6fD4s7xbcuiu6J4UrXhKFvfTcrtUNJoVoWy+BgkZUG3ZPwPG5xvAuRKmqbGb ey+w== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0CqqejBE/Yg3+qRcA6rjUk2ymHeT4C3k9MFO3pkAPEPuYmpoG3 AvA47pTIeYMDf92q6o1klHUnD1FiGOvK98jp9W62/w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpek7p20JUnJnBTGsEF++KNysSCz28/gT4hnOKKdKfSrcC3h/c6v/5jSZgJQ2mTj6Ft2j7ZP/bPD8bxTpOZybDw= X-Received: by 2002:a19:b598:: with SMTP id g24-v6mr4214361lfk.129.1531263216356; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180710205955.nt3hc34v2mwdngi2@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180710193940.jsslo3657wwee6ku@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <051A20E4-26D0-41C9-B93D-2A094E46EFBA@juniper.net> <20180710205955.nt3hc34v2mwdngi2@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Kent Watsen , "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000011a3450570ad00d6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:53:47 -0000 --00000000000011a3450570ad00d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 08:37:30PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > > > > So in short, after RFC 8071 call home, you get NC/RC client and server > > > starting with a exchange. Ideally, the client would indicate > > > its readiness to receive unsolicited notifications before you push > > > notifications to the client (and the notification sender may even be > > > interested to know that it is sending notifications to a remote system > > > that does not just drop them). So either the clients invokes an RPC to > > > start the notification flow or, if you want to optimize one round > > > trip, the client includes a special > > > > > > :willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications > > > > > > capability in the exchange. > > > > I agree that a client-advertised capability would be goodness here, but > > it only works for NC-clients, there is no corollary for RC-clients. > > > > Maybe clients should send a "willing-to-receive- > unsolicited-notifications" > > RPC instead? > > RFC 8040 (RESTCONF) uses SSE and the client has to fetch an event > stream resource in order to receive events (section 6.3). This is not > a big surprise since HTTP 1/1 is purely client driven. This in fact > implies that the client knows the event stream resource. > > SSE should be an available option for configured notifications. There could be a pre-determined URL for the client to GET like GET /restconf/SSE/ /js > Andy > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --00000000000011a3450570ad00d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 08:37:30PM +0000, Kent Watse= n wrote:
>
>
> > So in short, after RFC 8071 call home, you get NC/RC client and s= erver
> > starting with a <hello> exchange. Ideally, the client would= indicate
> > its readiness to receive unsolicited notifications before you pus= h
> > notifications to the client (and the notification sender may even= be
> > interested to know that it is sending notifications to a remote s= ystem
> > that does not just drop them). So either the clients invokes an R= PC to
> > start the notification flow or, if you want to optimize one round=
> > trip, the client includes a special
> >
> >=C2=A0 :willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications
> >
> > capability in the <hello> exchange.
>
> I agree that a client-advertised capability would be goodness here, bu= t
> it only works for NC-clients, there is no corollary for RC-clients.=C2= =A0
>
> Maybe clients should send a "willing-to-receive-unsolicited-= notifications"
> RPC instead?

RFC 8040 (RESTCONF) uses SSE and the client has to fetch an event
stream resource in order to receive events (section 6.3). This is not
a big surprise since HTTP 1/1 is purely client driven. This in fact
implies that the client knows the event stream resource.


SSE should be an available option for configured not= ifications.
There could be a pre-determined URL for the client to= GET
like GET /restconf/SSE/<subscription-id>

/js

Andy

=C2=A0
=
--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

--00000000000011a3450570ad00d6-- From nobody Tue Jul 10 16:32:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00DD712426A for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 16:32:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qV9AlaSAYAam for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 16:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound-ss-348.hostmonster.com (outbound-ss-348.hostmonster.com [74.220.202.212]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33756130E23 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 16:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw10.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.10]) by gproxy6.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56131F35A9 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:11:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id czvGfGdExjnCqczvGfsq7o; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:11:47 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=YGkCgXgm7nbmhsgkg9nAkl6lnLpQu9KjKN/ltHicioo=; b=K9xS79qHaATOHAyzxV0HpW5jE/ u95RvguYgDrsKJiuk5XwvF5rSyij+P4Kv2WKynBQqm0sPCkfhBTI3qkK34u8ugDAVMfrw2iU4aVUY vDLkzc+pp96fS3W5h4dVuKMkP; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:57462 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fczTZ-002BKZ-WD; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 14:43:10 -0600 To: Kent Watsen , Juergen Schoenwaelder , "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Netconf References: <20180708.095807.918450792556408986.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <9c3799f19cf84b22a3659c04a548ba67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <273f987e3a224411a01a599afb42f25f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180710193940.jsslo3657wwee6ku@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <051A20E4-26D0-41C9-B93D-2A094E46EFBA@juniper.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 16:43:06 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <051A20E4-26D0-41C9-B93D-2A094E46EFBA@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1fczTZ-002BKZ-WD X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:57462 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:32:25 -0000 On 7/10/2018 4:37 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > >> So in short, after RFC 8071 call home, you get NC/RC client and server >> starting with a exchange. Ideally, the client would indicate >> its readiness to receive unsolicited notifications before you push >> notifications to the client (and the notification sender may even be >> interested to know that it is sending notifications to a remote system >> that does not just drop them). So either the clients invokes an RPC to >> start the notification flow or, if you want to optimize one round >> trip, the client includes a special >> >> :willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications >> >> capability in the exchange. > I agree that a client-advertised capability would be goodness here, but > it only works for NC-clients, there is no corollary for RC-clients. > > Maybe clients should send a "willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications" > RPC instead? or an an error when an unsolicited notification is received by a client that doesn't support it. (optimizing for what I think suspect will be the common case in the long term...) Lou > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > From nobody Tue Jul 10 16:53:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C530130DF0 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 16:53:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fs7UcbU4D_PS for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 16:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59001130DDC for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 16:53:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4242; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531266792; x=1532476392; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=jk70uE/x13sQVKvrN/rMmPKQBf6fDlU9ROPTber1XR4=; b=dv3VJM3I2SpaMJ69QbZWrQlTSAVAYMX1BR5PEICcPG2FZXtg+6QZL0Y9 3lpkoJ9RXBDt7xUe+TLBb7Sl9BGtCvp8CJbGGtYiP5HzU+tFx7jDWh6so DJQNt5KoXAyY89CgXS65RSLhxwYkvo/Wtf5dfHjRzGDHTXGU3Y5ijLITI s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CEBgCNRkVb/5hdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYNJY38yg3CUPIIKgziReoF6C4RsGYITITUXAQIBAQIBAQJ?= =?us-ascii?q?tKIU2AQEEJBETMgUNARYHBQIJFgcCBDAVEQEEAQ0NgxmBdwiqfoEugyWFKoE?= =?us-ascii?q?4gQuHUR2BVz+JBoMXglUCmVIJAo8cjWiRawIRFIEkHwE1gVJwFRqDC4JMjga?= =?us-ascii?q?NJIEaAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,336,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="419938396" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 10 Jul 2018 23:52:55 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6ANqtrQ010865 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:52:55 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 19:52:54 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 19:52:54 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Kent Watsen , Lou Berger , "Juergen Schoenwaelder" CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: [Netconf] Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) Thread-Index: AdQYqRibIyUKRz80SqisclOQdJB7zA== Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:52:54 +0000 Message-ID: <97940484f3cb4ea8bbd2cd76bc46f764@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.41.32.86] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:53:15 -0000 Q2hhbmdpbmcgdGhlIHRocmVhZCB0aXRsZSwgYXMgd2UgaGF2ZSBtb3ZlZCBvZmYgdGhlIG9yaWdp bmFsIHRvcGljLi4uDQoNCj4gRnJvbTogS2VudCBXYXRzZW4sIEp1bHkgMTAsIDIwMTggNjozNiBQ TQ0KPiANCg0KQWRkaW5nIGJhY2sgaW4gTG91J3MgY29tbWVudCBiZWZvcmUgbWluZSB0byBwcm92 aWRlIHRoZSBjb250ZXh0IG5lZWRlZCB0byB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIG15IGFuc3dlci4uLg0KDQo+Pj4g KExvdSkgb3IgYW4gYW4gZXJyb3Igd2hlbiBhbiB1bnNvbGljaXRlZCBub3RpZmljYXRpb24gaXMg cmVjZWl2ZWQgYnkgYSBjbGllbnQgdGhhdCBkb2Vzbid0IHN1cHBvcnQgaXQuICAob3B0aW1pemlu ZyBmb3Igd2hhdCBJIHRoaW5rIHN1c3BlY3Qgd2lsbCBiZSB0aGUgY29tbW9uIGNhc2UgaW4gdGhl IGxvbmcgdGVybS4uLikNCg0KPiA+IEVmZmVjdGl2ZWx5IHRoaXMgaXMgd2hhdCBkcmFmdC1pZXRm LW5ldGNvbmYtcmVzdGNvbmYtbm90aWYsIHNlY3Rpb24NCj4gPiA0LjIgZGVmaW5lcyBub3cuICBB IHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWwgUE9TVCBvZiBhICJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb24tc3RhcnRlZCINCj4gPiBub3RpZmlj YXRpb24gbXVzdCBvY2N1ciBiZWZvcmUgZXZlbnRzIGFyZSBzZW50LiAgRmFpbHVyZSB0byByZWNl aXZlcg0KPiA+IGFuIE9LIGZvciB0aGUgUE9TVCBtZWFucyBhbiBlcnJvciB0byB0aGUgcHVibGlz aGVyLg0KPiANCj4gQnV0IGlmIHdlIHVzZSBSRVNUQ09ORiBDYWxsIEhvbWUsIHRoZSByZWNlaXZl ciBpcyB0aGUgSFRUUC1jbGllbnQsIGNhbiBhbiBIVFRQDQo+IGNsaWVudCBwcm9jZXNzIGEgUE9T VD8NCg0KQ29uc2lkZXJpbmcgTG91J3MgY29tbWVudCwgbXkgcmVzcG9uc2UgcG9pbnRzIG91dCB0 aGF0IGEgcmVjZWl2ZXIgbXVzdCAiT0siIGEgInN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbi1zdGFydGVkIiBiZWZvcmUg dGhlIHB1Ymxpc2hlciBjYW4gc2VuZCBldmVudHMuICBJbiB0aGlzIGNhc2UgdGhlIHB1Ymxpc2hl ciBpcyB0aGUgSFRUUDIgY2xpZW50LiAgT3RoZXJ3aXNlIHRoZXJlIGlzIGFuIGVycm9yLg0KDQpT aW5jZSB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyBSRVNUQ09ORiBpcyBuZWVkZWQgYXQgYWxsIGZvciBjb25maWd1cmVk IHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbnMsIHRoZSBmdW5jdGlvbiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLW5ldGNvbmYtcmVzdGNvbmYt bm90aWYgbmVlZHMgdG8gaW5jbHVkZSBpcyB0aGUgc2FmZSBlc3RhYmxpc2htZW50IG9mIGEgc2Vj dXJlIHR1bm5lbCBiZXR3ZWVuIFB1Ymxpc2hlciAoSFRUUDIgY2xpZW50KSBhbmQgUmVjZWl2ZXIg KEhUVFAyIHNlcnZlcikuICBQZXJoYXBzIENhbGwgSG9tZSBpcyBub3QgbmVjZXNzYXJ5IGF0IGFs bCBoZXJlLCBhbmQgcGVyaGFwcyBpdCBpcyBhbHdheXMgc2FmZSBmb3IgdGhlIHB1Ymxpc2hlciB0 byBpbml0aWF0ZSB0aGUgZW5jcnlwdGVkIHR1bm5lbC4gIFdlIGNhbiBkZWJhdGUgdGhlIHByb3Mv Y29ucyBvZiBlYWNoIHNjZW5hcmlvIGZvciBzdXJlLiAgUGVyaGFwcyBDYWxsIEhvbWUgc2ltcGx5 IGlzbid0IG5lZWRlZCBoZXJlLiAgQW5kIHRoYXQgd291bGQgYmUgZXhjZWxsZW50LiAgTXkgdW5k ZXJzdGFuZGluZyBpcyB0aGF0IENhbGwgSG9tZSBkb2VzIHByb3ZpZGUgc29tZSBwcm90ZWN0aW9u cyBoZXJlLCBzbyBJIGxlZnQgUkVTVENPTkYgY2FsbC1ob21lIGluIHRvIHNwdXIgdGhpcyBkZWJh dGUuDQoNCkFzc3VtaW5nIHRoYXQgc29tZW9uZSBkb2VzIHdhbnQgY2FsbC1ob21lIGZvciBjb25m aWd1cmVkIHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbiBlbmNyeXB0ZWQgdHVubmVsIGVzdGFibGlzaG1lbnQsIHN0ZXBz IEMxLUM3IG9mIFJGQzgwNzEgcmVtYWluIHRoZSBzYW1lLiAgSXQgaXMganVzdCBzdGVwIEM4IHdo aWNoIGNoYW5nZXMgc28gdGhhdCBhIHJlY2VpdmVyIHN0YXJ0cyB0byBsaXN0ZW5pbmcgZm9yIHRo ZSBQT1NUIG9mIG5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbnMgdG8gaXRzIEhUVFAgc2VydmVyIHJhdGhlciB0aGFuIHN0 YXJ0aW5nIFJFU1RDT05GLiAgIExpa2V3aXNlIFN0ZXBzIFMxLVM1IGFuZCBTNyBvZiBSRkM4MDcx IHJlbWFpbiB0aGUgc2FtZS4gIFRoZSBvbmx5IGRpZmZlcmVuY2Ugd291bGQgYmUgdGhhdCBzdGVw IFM2IGluaXRpYXRlcyBhbiBIVFRQMiBjbGllbnQgY29ubmVjdGlvbiB0b3dhcmRzIHRoZSByZWNl aXZlciwgYW5kIHRoZW4gUE9TVHMgYSAic3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uLXN0YXJ0ZWQiIG5vdGlmaWNhdGlv bi4gIFRoZXNlIHNwZWNpZmljcyBhYnNvbHV0ZWx5IGRvIG5lZWQgdG8gYmUgaW4gZHJhZnQtaWV0 Zi1uZXRjb25mLXJlc3Rjb25mLW5vdGlmLiAgVGhleSBhcmUgbm90IHlldCBhcyBJIHdhcyBhd2Fp dGluZyB0aGlzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gZmlyc3QuDQoNCj4gPiBTb21lIGZvcm0gb2YgUkVTVENPTkYg Q2FsbCBIb21lIHdpdGggY2FwYWJpbGl0eSBhZHZlcnRpc2VtZW50IGNvdWxkDQo+ID4gYWxzbyBv Y2N1ciBiZWZvcmUgdGhlICJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb24tc3RhcnRlZCIgUE9TVC4gIEhvd2V2ZXIsIHRo aXMNCj4gPiBhZHZlcnRpc2VtZW50IG9mIGNsaWVudCBjYXBhYmlsaXRpZXMgbWlnaHQgbm90IGJl IG5lZWRlZCBmb3IgYWxsDQo+IGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucy4NCj4gDQo+IEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyBo b3cuICBSRVNUQ09ORiBDYWxsIEhvbWUganVzdCBzdGFydHMgdGhlIFJFU1RDT05GIHByb3RvY29s LA0KPiBhbmQgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gY2FwYWJpbGl0eS1leGNoYW5nZSBpbiBSRVNUQ09ORi4NCg0K SSBjb3VsZCBoYXZlIHdvcmRlZCB0aGlzIGJldHRlci4gIFdoYXQgSSBtZWFudCBpcyB0aGF0IG91 dHNpZGUgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgc2NvcGUgb2YgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1uZXRjb25mLXJlc3Rjb25mLW5v dGlmLCBzb21lIFRCRCBleGNoYW5nZSBvZiByZWNlaXZlciBjYXBhYmlsaXRpZXMgY291bGQgYmUg ZGVmaW5lZC4gIFRoaXMgd291bGQgbGV0IHRoZSBwdWJsaXNoZXIga25vdyB0aGF0IHNlbmRpbmcg YSAic3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uLXN0YXJ0ZWQiIGlzIHN1cHBvcnRlZC4gICBJIGRvbid0IGJlbGlldmUg dGhpcyBuZWNlc3NhcnkvZXNzZW50aWFsIGhlcmUsIGFzIHlvdSB3b24ndCBzdGFydCBwdXNoaW5n IGV2ZW50cyB1bnRpbCB0aGUgcmVjZWl2ZXIgc2F5cyAiT0siLg0KDQpFcmljDQoNCj4gS2VudCAv LyBjb250cmlidXRvcg0KPiANCg0K From nobody Tue Jul 10 17:14:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D7F51311F4 for ; 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Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:14:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:14:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <97940484f3cb4ea8bbd2cd76bc46f764@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <97940484f3cb4ea8bbd2cd76bc46f764@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:14:15 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Kent Watsen , Lou Berger , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008ca44a0570ae2003" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:14:22 -0000 --0000000000008ca44a0570ae2003 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 4:52 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) < evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > Changing the thread title, as we have moved off the original topic... > > > From: Kent Watsen, July 10, 2018 6:36 PM > > > > Adding back in Lou's comment before mine to provide the context needed to > understand my answer... > > >>> (Lou) or an an error when an unsolicited notification is received by a > client that doesn't support it. (optimizing for what I think suspect will > be the common case in the long term...) > > > > Effectively this is what draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif, section > > > 4.2 defines now. A successful POST of a "subscription-started" > > > notification must occur before events are sent. Failure to receiver > > > an OK for the POST means an error to the publisher. > > > > But if we use RESTCONF Call Home, the receiver is the HTTP-client, can > an HTTP > > client process a POST? > > Considering Lou's comment, my response points out that a receiver must > "OK" a "subscription-started" before the publisher can send events. In > this case the publisher is the HTTP2 client. Otherwise there is an error. > > Since there is no RESTCONF is needed at all for configured subscriptions, > the function draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif needs to include is the > safe establishment of a secure tunnel between Publisher (HTTP2 client) and > Receiver (HTTP2 server). Perhaps Call Home is not necessary at all here, > and perhaps it is always safe for the publisher to initiate the encrypted > tunnel. We can debate the pros/cons of each scenario for sure. Perhaps > Call Home simply isn't needed here. And that would be excellent. My > understanding is that Call Home does provide some protections here, so I > left RESTCONF call-home in to spur this debate. > > Assuming that someone does want call-home for configured subscription > encrypted tunnel establishment, steps C1-C7 of RFC8071 remain the same. It > is just step C8 which changes so that a receiver starts to listening for > the POST of notifications to its HTTP server rather than starting > RESTCONF. Likewise Steps S1-S5 and S7 of RFC8071 remain the same. The > only difference would be that step S6 initiates an HTTP2 client connection > towards the receiver, and then POSTs a "subscription-started" > notification. These specifics absolutely do need to be in > draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif. They are not yet as I was awaiting > this discussion first. > > > > Some form of RESTCONF Call Home with capability advertisement could > > > also occur before the "subscription-started" POST. However, this > > > advertisement of client capabilities might not be needed for all > > implementations. > > > > I don't know how. RESTCONF Call Home just starts the RESTCONF protocol, > > and there is no capability-exchange in RESTCONF. > > I could have worded this better. What I meant is that outside the current > scope of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif, some TBD exchange of receiver > capabilities could be defined. This would let the publisher know that > sending a "subscription-started" is supported. I don't believe this > necessary/essential here, as you won't start pushing events until the > receiver says "OK". > > It is very expensive to implement both HTTP client and server roles in both peers. IMO the existing RESTCONF SSE notifications need to be supported. I am concerned that not enough reviews of configured notifications are being done because it is a low priority for many vendors. It is clearly redundant if CallHome is used, but potentially useful for binary push and line-card push (UDP or TCP). It is hard to say if the correct pieces are being defined now to support fancy binary push standards later. Eric > Andy > > > Kent // contributor > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --0000000000008ca44a0570ae2003 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 4:52 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) &l= t;e= voit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Changing the thread title, as we have moved off the original= topic...

> From: Kent Watsen, July 10, 2018 6:36 PM
>

Adding back in Lou's comment before mine to provide the context needed = to understand my answer...

>>> (Lou) or an an error when an unsolicited notification is recei= ved by a client that doesn't support it.=C2=A0 (optimizing for what I t= hink suspect will be the common case in the long term...)

> > Effectively this is what draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif, = section
> > 4.2 defines now.=C2=A0 A successful POST of a "subscription-= started"
> > notification must occur before events are sent.=C2=A0 Failure to = receiver
> > an OK for the POST means an error to the publisher.
>
> But if we use RESTCONF Call Home, the receiver is the HTTP-client, can= an HTTP
> client process a POST?

Considering Lou's comment, my response points out that a receiver must = "OK" a "subscription-started" before the publisher can = send events.=C2=A0 In this case the publisher is the HTTP2 client.=C2=A0 Ot= herwise there is an error.

Since there is no RESTCONF is needed at all for configured subscriptions, t= he function draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif needs to include is the = safe establishment of a secure tunnel between Publisher (HTTP2 client) and = Receiver (HTTP2 server).=C2=A0 Perhaps Call Home is not necessary at all he= re, and perhaps it is always safe for the publisher to initiate the encrypt= ed tunnel.=C2=A0 We can debate the pros/cons of each scenario for sure.=C2= =A0 Perhaps Call Home simply isn't needed here.=C2=A0 And that would be= excellent.=C2=A0 My understanding is that Call Home does provide some prot= ections here, so I left RESTCONF call-home in to spur this debate.

Assuming that someone does want call-home for configured subscription encry= pted tunnel establishment, steps C1-C7 of RFC8071 remain the same.=C2=A0 It= is just step C8 which changes so that a receiver starts to listening for t= he POST of notifications to its HTTP server rather than starting RESTCONF.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Likewise Steps S1-S5 and S7 of RFC8071 remain the same.=C2=A0 = The only difference would be that step S6 initiates an HTTP2 client connect= ion towards the receiver, and then POSTs a "subscription-started"= notification.=C2=A0 These specifics absolutely do need to be in draft-ietf= -netconf-restconf-notif.=C2=A0 They are not yet as I was awaiting this= discussion first.

> > Some form of RESTCONF Call Home with capability advertisement cou= ld
> > also occur before the "subscription-started" POST.=C2= =A0 However, this
> > advertisement of client capabilities might not be needed for all<= br> > implementations.
>
> I don't know how.=C2=A0 RESTCONF Call Home just starts the RESTCON= F protocol,
> and there is no capability-exchange in RESTCONF.

I could have worded this better.=C2=A0 What I meant is that outside the cur= rent scope of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif, some TBD exchange of = receiver capabilities could be defined.=C2=A0 This would let the publisher = know that sending a "subscription-started" is supported.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0I don't believe this necessary/essential here, as you won't s= tart pushing events until the receiver says "OK".


It is very expensive to implement both= HTTP client and server roles in both peers.
IMO the existing RES= TCONF SSE notifications need to be supported.

I am= concerned that not enough reviews of configured notifications
ar= e being done because it is a low priority for many vendors.
It is= clearly redundant if CallHome is used, but potentially useful for
binary push and line-card push (UDP or TCP).

It = is hard to say if the correct pieces are being defined now to support
=
fancy binary push standards later.


=
Eric

Andy
=C2=A0

> Kent // contributor
>

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

--0000000000008ca44a0570ae2003-- From nobody Tue Jul 10 17:15:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCCBD1311EB for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:15:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ShaQpt2dOObQ for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1905E1311F5 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:15:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3563; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531268147; x=1532477747; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=Kx2REPz70HP/np5hpPehvL+a+DOGEMVafPdbNlq6820=; b=fdkhDUqbygAyiP5JS3aQrkJSi74mWk50C4H4YIt4byTCwm4PX9j53SfW ElJHXvs8D89cNn3xETgnR0ob14Jmg+OJ4owKyGuFyhlBT4cc1R4X3QRoa lI/g5GQm3DPD/DsG1J+KvzUo0eFGBYFhBMwNj0vp9QWah5prBxFuJ1XIc k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CiAQA9S0Vb/4YNJK1ZAxkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGDSWN/MpgsggqVRoFmCx+ETYIsITcVAQIBAQIBAQJtHAy?= =?us-ascii?q?FNgEBBDsNMgUJBAEWAgUDDREFJhcmAQQODRGDCIF3CKwngyWFKoEzBQWIdIF?= =?us-ascii?q?XP4hpARIBBwI3JoUPAplSCQKPHI1okWsCERMBgSQzImFxcBWDJYJMg2eKH4w?= =?us-ascii?q?FgR+BGgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,336,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="422031872" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 11 Jul 2018 00:15:46 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6B0FjCG029035 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:15:46 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:15:45 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:15:45 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Lou Berger , Kent Watsen , Netconf Thread-Topic: HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) Thread-Index: AdQYqhJAfRhRABCKSmSEYThB7pSKSA== Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:15:45 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.41.32.86] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:15:51 -0000 > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 10, 2018 6:43 PM >=20 > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:27:23PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > From: Lou Berger, July 10, 2018 4:43 PM > > > > > > On 7/10/2018 4:37 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > > > > >> So in short, after RFC 8071 call home, you get NC/RC client and > > > >> server starting with a exchange. Ideally, the client > > > >> would indicate its readiness to receive unsolicited notifications > > > >> before you push notifications to the client (and the notification > > > >> sender may even be interested to know that it is sending > > > >> notifications to a remote system that does not just drop them). > > > >> So either the clients invokes an RPC to start the notification > > > >> flow or, if you want to optimize one round trip, the client > > > >> includes a special > > > >> > > > >> :willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications > > > >> > > > >> capability in the exchange. > > > > I agree that a client-advertised capability would be goodness > > > > here, but it only works for NC-clients, there is no corollary for R= C-clients. > > > > > > > > Maybe clients should send a "willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notific= ations" > > > > RPC instead? > > > or an an error when an unsolicited notification is received by a > > > client that doesn't support it. > > > (optimizing for what I think suspect will be the common case in the > > > long > > > term...) > > > > Effectively this is what draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif, section 4.2= defines > now. A successful POST of a "subscription-started" notification must occ= ur > before events are sent. Failure to receiver an OK for the POST means an = error > to the publisher. > > > > Some form of RESTCONF Call Home with capability advertisement could als= o > occur before the "subscription-started" POST. However this advertisement= of > client capabilities might not be needed for all implementations. > > >=20 > I fail to understand section 4.2. The first sentence already leaves me > puzzled: >=20 > With HTTP2 connectivity established, a POST of each new > "subscription-started" state change notification messages will be > addressed to HTTP augmentation code on the receiver capable of > accepting and acknowledging to subscription state change > notifications. >=20 > What does this say? And why is this HTTP2 specific? The publisher is the = RC > server, no?=20 Actually no. This specification does not use RESTCONF for configured subsc= riptions. (See other email I just sent to Kent.) > So the RC server does HTTP transactions agains the client? This > does not seem to have anything to do with how the call home RFC works. >=20 > I am not saying that what Figure 3 shows won't work, it just has nothing = to do > with call home. You are reversing the RC client and server roles, call ho= me only > reverses the connection establishment roles. Big difference. Yes this is a big difference. Especially as RESTCONF is removed as well fo= r configured subscriptions. Per the other thread, I am actually quite fine with removing call home for = configured subscriptions if nobody else sees a need for the receiver to ini= tiate this connection. That would make life simpler. Eric =20 > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 10 17:27:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E473A130DD4 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:27:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1nk44EPWCI4j for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED362127332 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:27:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=18410; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531268856; x=1532478456; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=cu44mjtHucvcNvkm8pjNBuhaQvm7eLI1uW5K+ylFPuU=; b=Jamlg7extCGB+4kczKvEp3LhLfMhue7+Mq+wPLpWi1Hp8ffDzCtZoA3x /j0JhRdiJOGGspFZwp7P10KvW6OL2InCN+WBzYytv6p6ZrrnUhJeKgxIS tc0FUdeWkEAciTA0GBBtrfeAoskk1Oz7QYPpWq5hX4vf8NK3XmH+BlG2E E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CoAQC9TkVb/5NdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYJTTCpjfygKg3Bik1qCCpAkhQ6BegsYAQqEA0YCF4ITITU?= =?us-ascii?q?XAQIBAQIBAQJtHAyFNgEBAQMBAQEhChonCwULAgEIFRAWBAMCAgIlCxQRAgQ?= =?us-ascii?q?OBQiDGYEbXAgPqmOBLoMlhSqBMwWIXB2BVz+Dcy6DGQEBAoFIJCiCS4JVApl?= =?us-ascii?q?SCQKPHI1okWsCERSBJB8BNYFScBUaIYJpgk1pAQeHV4U+bwGMNIEaAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,336,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="141298275" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 11 Jul 2018 00:27:29 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6B0RS5c027643 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:27:28 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:27:28 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:27:28 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Andy Bierman CC: Kent Watsen , Lou Berger , "Juergen Schoenwaelder" , Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) Thread-Index: AQHUGKwgIepoIlK4lUKAgLRU4cxjKaSJJ6cg Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:27:28 +0000 Message-ID: <6cf9067753e946d198b2b2690fe4bded@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <97940484f3cb4ea8bbd2cd76bc46f764@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.41.32.86] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6cf9067753e946d198b2b2690fe4bdedXCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) 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bh=oWmoCgI5HURtnS8PhUUXHDT8GY3uPlGTWtZ43IvXLgU=; b=s4niv+eII4cBWonmS6OM8y2e0NPjbEl/Jk45XmzSPa5JpcS3Gok5t4fA5J+kE2/B+Gah vvbB4JV4WUTf3IyPuylRxiVMOelzgcHb5GHJIKgVe51chg8N0KFqKPtDiMnUPE7hC8EG XuzmlnY9/pf4ceB9SbvbgFXQcVXLDkp9ucWzbpigNiaOUtJ7DUJOn/xyIMoLORxPjCFT qYpSfHTBAaErS7O+OMvJgd3SsyrPUIGfRE3KIZXF1FLz64kma/in6bZwFqSmTlsXY60U p3agfQjRXVVUZL+zt9t2eUaKiN9vUHq1ZLB4EELSGIXk1B9HUiXCKykcANWBEOm1TO7V Yg== Received: from nam04-co1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam04lp0047.outbound.protection.outlook.com [216.32.181.47]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2k5738r0kv-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:27:45 -0700 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.200.153) by BYAPR05MB4630.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.233.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.952.7; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:27:42 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc]) by BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc%4]) with mapi id 15.20.0952.013; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:27:42 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Lou Berger , Netconf Thread-Topic: HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) 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(was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 02:01:45 -0000 DQoNCj4gUGVyIHRoZSBvdGhlciB0aHJlYWQsIEkgYW0gYWN0dWFsbHkgcXVpdGUgZmluZSB3aXRo IHJlbW92aW5nIGNhbGwgaG9tZQ0KPiBmb3IgY29uZmlndXJlZCBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIGlmIG5v Ym9keSBlbHNlIHNlZXMgYSBuZWVkIGZvciB0aGUgcmVjZWl2ZXINCj4gdG8gaW5pdGlhdGUgdGhp cyBjb25uZWN0aW9uLiAgVGhhdCB3b3VsZCBtYWtlIGxpZmUgc2ltcGxlci4NCg0KTXkgb3Blbmlu ZyB0aG91Z2h0IGlzIHRoYXQgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIG5peCBjb25maWd1cmVkIHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbnMg ZW50aXJlbHkNCmZvciB0aGUgZmlyc3Qgcm91bmQgb2YgdGhlc2UgZHJhZnRzLiAgT25seSBzdXBw b3J0IGR5bmFtaWMgc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9ucy4NCg0KTXkgc2Vjb25kIHRob3VnaHQgaXMgdGhhdCwg d2hlbiB3ZSBnZXQgYXJvdW5kIHRvIGRlZmluaW5nIGNvbmZpZ3VyZWQgDQpzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25z LCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgY29uc2lkZXIgc3VwcG9ydGluZyBib3RoICJwdWJsaXNoZXIgaXMgdGhlIA0K dHJhbnNwb3J0LXNlcnZlciIgKGZvciB0aGUgYXdlc29tZSBhbGlnbm1lbnQgb2Ygc2VjdXJpdHkg Y3JlZGVudGlhbHMpDQphcyB3ZWxsIGFzICJwdWJsaXNoaW5nIGlzIHRoZSA8dHJhbnNwb3J0Pi1j bGllbnQgKGZvciB3aGVuIHRoZXJlJ3MgYQ0KbmVlZCBmb3IgdGhhdCkuICBJTU8sIHRoaXMganVz dCBjb21lcyBkb3duIHRvICJub3RpZiIgbW9kdWxlcywgb25lIGZvcg0KZWFjaCB2YXJpYXRpb24s IEkgZW52aXNpb24gYSBkb3plbiBvciBzbyBpbiB0aW1lLg0KDQpLZW50IC8vIGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9y DQoNCg0K From nobody Tue Jul 10 20:09:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6231310BD for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:09:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FyCXFpcTd-Wu for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 740DE1310B9 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 182D2BD64295C for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 04:09:20 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 04:09:20 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.13]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:09:08 +0800 From: "Zhengguangying (Walker)" To: "netconf@ietf.org" , "Yangang (Routing Design)" , Qin Wu , Yangshouchuan , "Qudan (Beijing-NOS)" Thread-Topic: [netconf] some questions when implementing netconf server Thread-Index: AdQYxINJ0bPqty3QTpa7/FyueeC8Bg== Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 03:09:07 +0000 Message-ID: <381D7D55085B1E4D8B581BD652E1E140C9313ABD@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.169.155] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_381D7D55085B1E4D8B581BD652E1E140C9313ABDnkgeml513mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] [netconf] some questions when implementing netconf server X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 03:09:31 -0000 --_000_381D7D55085B1E4D8B581BD652E1E140C9313ABDnkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Some questions when implementing netconf server, please WG expert help t= o answer, thanks. [Question 1]: From protocol view, should only reply config true node, when= RPC filter include "config false", whether the netconf server= should reply rpc-error with "unknown element"? //config false node [Question 2]: Suppose module A have Case insensitive string node x, in edit= -config operation, system will convert the node content to lower case alway= s. The question is, when client use to retrieve data, and set = node x as filter node, whether netconf server can match the content insens= itively? we think it can do it insensitively, but in RFC6241 section 6.2.5, have t= he following description: A leaf node that contains simple content is called a "content match nod= e". It is used to select some or all of its sibling nodes for filter outpu= t, and it represents an exact-match filter on the leaf node element content= . How to understand "exact-match" here, whether netconf server match insen= sitively as node type defined comply "exact-match". [Question 3]: How to understand the "state data" in RFC6241 section "1.4 Se= paration of Configuration and State Data ", "state data" is list instance l= evel of leaf level, or both, or only leaf level? example YANG: container foos { list foo { key name; leaf name { type string; } leaf foo-type { type enumeration { enum configed { value 1; } enum learned { value 2; } } leaf enabled { type boolean; } leaf oper-status { config false; type string; } } } } case1: "state data" as list instance level, when , only rep= ly the foo instances with foo-type value "configed", when reply foo i= nstances configed and learned. reply: foo1 configed true foo2 configed true reply: foo1 configed true up foo2 configed true up foo2 learned true up case2: "state data" as list leaf level, when , only reply t= he foo instances with foo-type value "configed", without leaf= . when reply foo instances configed , with leaf. And t= he learned instance should define a new list as "list foo-learned" reply: foo1 configed true foo2 configed true reply: foo1 configed true up foo2 configed true up Thanks Walker(Guangying zheng) --_000_381D7D55085B1E4D8B581BD652E1E140C9313ABDnkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

   Some questions whe= n implementing netconf server, please WG expert help to answer, thanks.

 

 

[Question 1]:

  From protocol view,= <get-config> should only reply config true node, when RPC <get-co= nfig> filter include "config false", whether the netconf serve= r should reply rpc-error with  "unknown element"?

  <= /p>

   <rpc messa= ge-id=3D"101"

     &= nbsp;    xmlns=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1= .0">

     &= nbsp; <get-config>

     &= nbsp;   <source>

     &= nbsp;     <running/>

     &= nbsp;   </source>

      =    <filter type=3D"subtree">

     &= nbsp;     <system xmlns=3D"urn:example-base&quo= t;>

     &= nbsp;       <interface/>

     &= nbsp;       <status/>   //con= fig false node

     &= nbsp;     </system>

     &= nbsp;   </filter>

     &= nbsp; </get-config>

     </r= pc>

 

 

[Question 2]: Suppose module A = have Case insensitive string node x, in edit-config operation, system will = convert the node content to lower case always. The question is, when client= use <get-config> to retrieve data, and set node x as filter node, whether netconf server can match the conten= t  insensitively?

  we think it can do = it insensitively, but in RFC6241 section 6.2.5, have the following descript= ion:

 

    A leaf = node that contains simple content is called a "content match node"= ;.  It is used to select some or all of its sibling nodes for filter o= utput, and it represents an exact-match filter on the leaf node element content. 

    

   How to unders= tand "exact-match" here, whether netconf server match insensitive= ly as node type defined comply "exact-match".

   =

[Question 3]: How to understand= the "state data" in RFC6241 section "1.4 Separation of Conf= iguration and State Data ", "state data" is list instance le= vel of leaf level, or both, or only leaf level?

   

     <= o:p>

   example YANG:=   

     c= ontainer foos {

     &= nbsp;  list foo {

     &= nbsp;     key name;

     &= nbsp;     leaf name {

     &= nbsp;      type string;

     &= nbsp;     }

     &= nbsp;     leaf foo-type {

     &= nbsp;      type enumeration {

     &= nbsp;        enum configed {<= /span>

     &= nbsp;          value 1;

     &= nbsp;        }

     &= nbsp;        enum learned {

     &= nbsp;          value 2;

     &= nbsp;        }

     &= nbsp;     }

     &= nbsp;     leaf enabled {

     &= nbsp;        type boolean;

     &= nbsp;     }

     &= nbsp;     leaf oper-status {

     &= nbsp;        config false;

     &= nbsp;        type string;

     &= nbsp;     }

     &= nbsp;  }

     }=

    }=

    <= /span>

    case1: = "state data" as list instance level, when <get-config>, onl= y reply the foo instances with foo-type value "configed", when &l= t;get> reply foo instances configed and learned.

    <= /span>

    <get= -config> reply:

    <= /span>

    <foo= s>

     &= nbsp; <foo>

     &= nbsp;    <name> foo1 </name>

     &= nbsp;    <foo-type> configed </foo-type>

     &= nbsp;    <enabled> true </enabled>

     &= nbsp; </foo>

     &= nbsp; <foo>

     &= nbsp;    <name> foo2 </name>

     &= nbsp;    <foo-type> configed </foo-type>

     &= nbsp;    <enabled> true </enabled>

     &= nbsp; </foo>

    </foos>= ;

    <= /span>

    <get= > reply:

    <foos>=

     &= nbsp; <foo>

     &= nbsp;    <name> foo1 </name>

     &= nbsp;    <foo-type> configed </foo-type>

     &= nbsp;    <enabled> true </enabled>

     &= nbsp;    <oper-status>up</oper-status>

     &= nbsp; </foo>

     &= nbsp; <foo>

     &= nbsp;    <name> foo2 </name>

     &= nbsp;    <foo-type> configed </foo-type>

     &= nbsp;    <enabled> true </enabled>

     &= nbsp;    <oper-status>up</oper-status>

     &= nbsp; </foo>

     &= nbsp; <foo>

     &= nbsp;    <name> foo2 </name>

     &= nbsp;    <foo-type> learned </foo-type>

     &= nbsp;    <enabled> true </enabled>

      =     <oper-status>up</oper-status>

     &= nbsp; </foo>

    </foos>= ;

    <= /span>

    case2: = "state data" as list leaf level, when <get-config>, only re= ply the foo instances with foo-type value "configed", without <= ;oper-status> leaf. when <get> reply foo instances configed , with= <oper-status> leaf.  And the learned instance should define a new list as "list foo-learne= d"

    <= /span>

     &= lt;get-config> reply:

    <= /span>

    <foo= s>

     &= nbsp; <foo>

     &= nbsp;    <name> foo1 </name>

     &= nbsp;    <foo-type> configed </foo-type>

     &= nbsp;    <enabled> true </enabled>

     &= nbsp; </foo>

     &= nbsp; <foo>

     &= nbsp;    <name> foo2 </name>

     &= nbsp;    <foo-type> configed </foo-type>

     &= nbsp;    <enabled> true </enabled>

     &= nbsp; </foo>

    </foos>= ;

    <= /span>

    <get= > reply:

    <foos>=

     &= nbsp; <foo>

     &= nbsp;    <name> foo1 </name>

     &= nbsp;    <foo-type> configed </foo-type>

     &= nbsp;    <enabled> true </enabled>

     &= nbsp;    <oper-status>up</oper-status>

     &= nbsp; </foo>

     &= nbsp; <foo>

     &= nbsp;    <name> foo2 </name>

     &= nbsp;    <foo-type> configed </foo-type>

     &= nbsp;    <enabled> true </enabled>

      =     <oper-status>up</oper-status>

     &= nbsp; </foo>      

&l= t;/foos>

 

Thanks

Walker(Guangying zheng)

--_000_381D7D55085B1E4D8B581BD652E1E140C9313ABDnkgeml513mbxchi_-- From nobody Tue Jul 10 20:37:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D979130E54 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:37:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gYwtLztoXwI8 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DF08130EC5 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108163.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w6B3aJ2j019846; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:37:20 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=KUh+mOtAn4e5A7lHqdnG9ACtxGZWiCbTfGfcxaJ6ry4=; b=GUt/Ep0r4ISdOXjaYHW0i7twhPeISvphMNDRpb4l0AwOgCzqJTYZSnHXmXEKuefnWupu wvwQRgs88KlPBkuSzQIDAkPLRt/L/cd4kKxRfqWFwMH5KeBEChUQPSRObPtipd5txrlJ UZpPnKE3rEydSwdTFgBgBlSNi/pU5WL8NUDaI1gh3mUW6X7cm2SfGn/zR/i47CTMV+Oi DHlFSqMq16wbJo0/A4vWHjac9mFYnFQvrg1CfbzCV+XWdl5gGMsyId3EUBmX3z9rgE09 QkNz6HG4D8ccBeHvh6eXhLiajaUsy1HOgiG+R02rJ1DbeqEaf0pkmx3PX7WBWvWIXV+y nQ== Received: from nam01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam01lp0175.outbound.protection.outlook.com [216.32.181.175]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2k5738ra5k-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:37:19 -0700 Received: from SN6PR05MB4238.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.67.144) by SN6PR05MB4701.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.114.211) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.952.8; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 03:37:17 +0000 Received: from SN6PR05MB4238.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::bc30:6cf6:471e:a2ae]) by SN6PR05MB4238.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::bc30:6cf6:471e:a2ae%2]) with mapi id 15.20.0952.017; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 03:37:17 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) 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(was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 03:37:26 -0000 DQo+IE15IG9wZW5pbmcgdGhvdWdodCBpcyB0aGF0IHdlIHNob3VsZCBuaXggY29uZmlndXJlZCBz dWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIGVudGlyZWx5DQo+IGZvciB0aGUgZmlyc3Qgcm91bmQgb2YgdGhlc2UgZHJh ZnRzLiAgT25seSBzdXBwb3J0IGR5bmFtaWMgc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9ucy4NCg0KTXkgdGhpbmtpbmcg aGVyZSBpcyBvbmx5IHRvIGVuZCB0aGUgbmVlZCB0byBoYXZlIHRoaXMgY29udmVyc2F0aW9uLCBi dXQNCmhhdmluZyB0aGlzIGNvbnZlcnNhdGlvbiBpcyBwcm9iYWJseSBiZXN0LCBzbyBwbGVhc2Ug aWdub3JlIHRoaXMgY29tbWVudC4NCg0KDQo+IE15IHNlY29uZCB0aG91Z2h0IGlzIHRoYXQsIHdo ZW4gd2UgZ2V0IGFyb3VuZCB0byBkZWZpbmluZyBjb25maWd1cmVkIA0KPiBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25z LCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgY29uc2lkZXIgc3VwcG9ydGluZyBib3RoICJwdWJsaXNoZXIgaXMgdGhlIA0K PiB0cmFuc3BvcnQtc2VydmVyIiAoZm9yIHRoZSBhd2Vzb21lIGFsaWdubWVudCBvZiBzZWN1cml0 eSBjcmVkZW50aWFscykNCj4gYXMgd2VsbCBhcyAicHVibGlzaGVyIGlzIHRoZSA8dHJhbnNwb3J0 Pi1jbGllbnQgKGZvciB3aGVuIHRoZXJlJ3MgYQ0KPiBuZWVkIGZvciB0aGF0KS4gIElNTywgdGhp cyBjb21lcyBkb3duIHRvIHRoZSAibm90aWYiIG1vZHVsZXMsIG9uZSBmb3INCj4gZWFjaCB2YXJp YXRpb24sIEkgZW52aXNpb24gYSBkb3plbiBvciBzbyBpbiB0aW1lLg0KDQoNCkZvciBleGFtcGxl Og0KIC0gbm90aWYtbmV0Y29uZi1jbGllbnQgICAvLyB1c2VzIC9pZXRmLW5ldGNvbmYtY2xpZW50 OmluaXRpYXRlLy4uLg0KIC0gbm90aWYtbmV0Y29uZi1zZXJ2ZXIgICAvLyB1c2VzIC9pZXRmLW5l dGNvbmYtc2VydmVyOmNhbGwtaG9tZS8uLi4NCiAtIG5vdGlmLXJlc3Rjb25mLWNsaWVudCAgLy8g dXNlcyAvaWV0Zi1yZXN0Y29uZi1jbGllbnQ6aW5pdGlhdGUvLi4uDQogLSBub3RpZi1yZXN0Y29u Zi1zZXJ2ZXIgIC8vIHVzZXMgL2lldGYtcmVzdGNvbmYtc2VydmVyOmNhbGwtaG9tZS8uLi4NCiAt IG5vdGlmLWNvYXAtY2xpZW50ICAgICAgLy8gdXNlcyAvaWV0Zi1jb2FwLWNsaWVudDppbml0aWF0 ZS8uLi4gICAoVEJEKQ0KIC0gbm90aWYtY29hcC1zZXJ2ZXIgICAgICAvLyB1c2VzIC9pZXRmLWNv YXAtc2VydmVyOmNhbGwtaG9tZS8uLi4gIChUQkQpDQogLSBub3RpZi1odHRwMS4xLWNsaWVudCAg IC8vID8/Pw0KIC0gbm90aWYtaHR0cDIuMC1jbGllbnQgICAvLyA/Pz8NCiAtIG5vdGlmLXN5c2xv Zy1jbGllbnQgICAgLy8gPz8/ICAgICAgIA0KIC0gZXRjLg0KDQpBbmQsIGZvciBpbnRlcm9wZXJh YmlsaXR5LCB3ZSdkIGhhdmUgdG8gcGljayBhIG1hbmRhdG9yeSB0byBpbXBsZW1lbnQNCnRyYW5z cG9ydCwgd2hpY2ggd291bGQgaXQgYmU/ICANCg0KDQoNCktlbnQgLy8gY29udHJpYnV0b3INCg0K DQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KTmV0Y29u ZiBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCk5ldGNvbmZAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5wcm9v ZnBvaW50LmNvbS92Mi91cmw/dT1odHRwcy0zQV9fd3d3LmlldGYub3JnX21haWxtYW5fbGlzdGlu Zm9fbmV0Y29uZiZkPUR3SUNBZyZjPUhBa1l1aDYzcnN1aHI2U2NiZmgwVWpCWGVNSy1uZGIzdm9E VFhjV3pvQ0kmcj05emtQMHhuSlV2WkdKOUVQb09IN1locW4yZ3NCWWFHVHZqSVNsYUpkY1pvJm09 ZWw4TXZYTmhxU0JvVW8zWC1aeHJtcG05ZXBTRlcxREstYzlJLVVJSjVNZyZzPWl2a09PVXp5bFpC M2Q0akVfUE9LbzVpeEFOZlhjVjhLZlpvemRDcHpOb2smZT0NCg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Jul 10 22:44:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82948130E02 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:44:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w8dGOwBzVIw0 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCFFD126F72 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id ED239230015E; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 07:43:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 07:43:56 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Kent Watsen , Lou Berger , Netconf Message-ID: <20180711054356.qcqrxgmbkfrjq5dz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Kent Watsen , Lou Berger , Netconf References: <97940484f3cb4ea8bbd2cd76bc46f764@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <97940484f3cb4ea8bbd2cd76bc46f764@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 05:44:02 -0000 Why is this discussion HTTP/2 specific? What you are proposing in draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-06.txt is that you have a RC client using RPCs to push notification data to an RC server. LMAP is doing something like this to send measurement results to a collector. The point is that you do not need call home for this but instead: - you embed a RC client into the server on the device - you embed a RC server into the client on the managing system - you need to provision client config so that the device knows how and when to contact the server - you define RPCs in a YANG model implemented by the RC server on the managing system do ship notification content towards the RC server on the managing system This is what LMAP has done. In contrast, a call home solution does not require additional clients and servers and instead you call home and let the client start the notification stream, which is sent using SSE as defined in RFC 8040. /js On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 11:52:54PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > Changing the thread title, as we have moved off the original topic... > > > From: Kent Watsen, July 10, 2018 6:36 PM > > > > Adding back in Lou's comment before mine to provide the context needed to understand my answer... > > >>> (Lou) or an an error when an unsolicited notification is received by a client that doesn't support it. (optimizing for what I think suspect will be the common case in the long term...) > > > > Effectively this is what draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif, section > > > 4.2 defines now. A successful POST of a "subscription-started" > > > notification must occur before events are sent. Failure to receiver > > > an OK for the POST means an error to the publisher. > > > > But if we use RESTCONF Call Home, the receiver is the HTTP-client, can an HTTP > > client process a POST? > > Considering Lou's comment, my response points out that a receiver must "OK" a "subscription-started" before the publisher can send events. In this case the publisher is the HTTP2 client. Otherwise there is an error. > > Since there is no RESTCONF is needed at all for configured subscriptions, the function draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif needs to include is the safe establishment of a secure tunnel between Publisher (HTTP2 client) and Receiver (HTTP2 server). Perhaps Call Home is not necessary at all here, and perhaps it is always safe for the publisher to initiate the encrypted tunnel. We can debate the pros/cons of each scenario for sure. Perhaps Call Home simply isn't needed here. And that would be excellent. My understanding is that Call Home does provide some protections here, so I left RESTCONF call-home in to spur this debate. > > Assuming that someone does want call-home for configured subscription encrypted tunnel establishment, steps C1-C7 of RFC8071 remain the same. It is just step C8 which changes so that a receiver starts to listening for the POST of notifications to its HTTP server rather than starting RESTCONF. Likewise Steps S1-S5 and S7 of RFC8071 remain the same. The only difference would be that step S6 initiates an HTTP2 client connection towards the receiver, and then POSTs a "subscription-started" notification. These specifics absolutely do need to be in draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif. They are not yet as I was awaiting this discussion first. > > > > Some form of RESTCONF Call Home with capability advertisement could > > > also occur before the "subscription-started" POST. However, this > > > advertisement of client capabilities might not be needed for all > > implementations. > > > > I don't know how. RESTCONF Call Home just starts the RESTCONF protocol, > > and there is no capability-exchange in RESTCONF. > > I could have worded this better. What I meant is that outside the current scope of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif, some TBD exchange of receiver capabilities could be defined. This would let the publisher know that sending a "subscription-started" is supported. I don't believe this necessary/essential here, as you won't start pushing events until the receiver says "OK". > > Eric > > > Kent // contributor > > > -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 10 22:51:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AAD8126F72 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:51:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YuCUq1fgiYps for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBDA130E13 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id B8C1423001D3; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 07:51:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 07:51:54 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Lou Berger , Kent Watsen , Netconf Message-ID: <20180711055154.qzmg2ofdid5dog7y@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Lou Berger , Kent Watsen , Netconf References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 05:51:58 -0000 On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:15:45AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 10, 2018 6:43 PM > > > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:27:23PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > From: Lou Berger, July 10, 2018 4:43 PM > > > > > > > > On 7/10/2018 4:37 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> So in short, after RFC 8071 call home, you get NC/RC client and > > > > >> server starting with a exchange. Ideally, the client > > > > >> would indicate its readiness to receive unsolicited notifications > > > > >> before you push notifications to the client (and the notification > > > > >> sender may even be interested to know that it is sending > > > > >> notifications to a remote system that does not just drop them). > > > > >> So either the clients invokes an RPC to start the notification > > > > >> flow or, if you want to optimize one round trip, the client > > > > >> includes a special > > > > >> > > > > >> :willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications > > > > >> > > > > >> capability in the exchange. > > > > > I agree that a client-advertised capability would be goodness > > > > > here, but it only works for NC-clients, there is no corollary for RC-clients. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe clients should send a "willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications" > > > > > RPC instead? > > > > or an an error when an unsolicited notification is received by a > > > > client that doesn't support it. > > > > (optimizing for what I think suspect will be the common case in the > > > > long > > > > term...) > > > > > > Effectively this is what draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif, section 4.2 defines > > now. A successful POST of a "subscription-started" notification must occur > > before events are sent. Failure to receiver an OK for the POST means an error > > to the publisher. > > > > > > Some form of RESTCONF Call Home with capability advertisement could also > > occur before the "subscription-started" POST. However this advertisement of > > client capabilities might not be needed for all implementations. > > > > > > > I fail to understand section 4.2. The first sentence already leaves me > > puzzled: > > > > With HTTP2 connectivity established, a POST of each new > > "subscription-started" state change notification messages will be > > addressed to HTTP augmentation code on the receiver capable of > > accepting and acknowledging to subscription state change > > notifications. > > > > What does this say? And why is this HTTP2 specific? The publisher is the RC > > server, no? > > Actually no. This specification does not use RESTCONF for configured subscriptions. (See other email I just sent to Kent.) OK. So you have a solution for sending dynamic subscriptions via RC but no solution for sending configured subscriptions via RC since you are actually inventing a new protocol for this (which for some unknown reason requires HTTP/2). > > So the RC server does HTTP transactions agains the client? This > > does not seem to have anything to do with how the call home RFC works. > > > > I am not saying that what Figure 3 shows won't work, it just has nothing to do > > with call home. You are reversing the RC client and server roles, call home only > > reverses the connection establishment roles. Big difference. > > Yes this is a big difference. Especially as RESTCONF is removed as well for configured subscriptions. > > Per the other thread, I am actually quite fine with removing call home for configured subscriptions if nobody else sees a need for the receiver to initiate this connection. That would make life simpler. > The receiver? I read in 4.1: If the above conditions are met, then the publisher MUST initiate a transport session via RESTCONF call home [RFC8071], section 4.1 to that receiver. Still puzzled. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 10 23:08:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1BBE130DDB for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:08:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OsNaFegbEh9A for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0FA126F72 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 47F7B230031C; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:08:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:08:15 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Zhengguangying (Walker)" Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" , "Yangang (Routing Design)" , Qin Wu , Yangshouchuan , "Qudan (Beijing-NOS)" Message-ID: <20180711060815.jufcdfgbm3v5jk4a@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Zhengguangying (Walker)" , "netconf@ietf.org" , "Yangang (Routing Design)" , Qin Wu , Yangshouchuan , "Qudan (Beijing-NOS)" References: <381D7D55085B1E4D8B581BD652E1E140C9313ABD@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <381D7D55085B1E4D8B581BD652E1E140C9313ABD@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netconf] some questions when implementing netconf server X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 06:08:19 -0000 On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 03:09:07AM +0000, Zhengguangying (Walker) wrote: > Hi all, > > Some questions when implementing netconf server, please WG expert help to answer, thanks. > > > [Question 1]: > From protocol view, should only reply config true node, when RPC filter include "config false", whether the netconf server should reply rpc-error with "unknown element"? > > xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"> > > > > > > > > //config false node > > > > If you select a substree that has no config true nodes, then this results in an empty response. This is not an error. > [Question 2]: Suppose module A have Case insensitive string node x, in edit-config operation, system will convert the node content to lower case always. The question is, when client use to retrieve data, and set node x as filter node, whether netconf server can match the content insensitively? > we think it can do it insensitively, but in RFC6241 section 6.2.5, have the following description: > > A leaf node that contains simple content is called a "content match node". It is used to select some or all of its sibling nodes for filter output, and it represents an exact-match filter on the leaf node element content.. > > How to understand "exact-match" here, whether netconf server match insensitively as node type defined comply "exact-match". NETCONF was defined before we had YANG. With YANG, we have the notion of a canonical representation and that is the representation that is used for XML serialization and xpath evaluations (see section 9.1 of RFC 7950). If you have a case insensitive string, then the definition should define what the canonical format is and everything will work. If you are not using YANG, well, then you are on your own. > [Question 3]: How to understand the "state data" in RFC6241 section "1.4 Separation of Configuration and State Data ", "state data" is list instance level of leaf level, or both, or only leaf level? > > > example YANG: > container foos { > list foo { > key name; > leaf name { > type string; > } > leaf foo-type { > type enumeration { > enum configed { > value 1; > } > enum learned { > value 2; > } > } > leaf enabled { > type boolean; > } > leaf oper-status { > config false; > type string; > } > } > } > } > > case1: "state data" as list instance level, when , only reply the foo instances with foo-type value "configed", when reply foo instances configed and learned. > > reply: > > > > foo1 > configed > true > > > foo2 > configed > true > > > > reply: > > > foo1 > configed > true > up > > > foo2 > configed > true > up > > > foo2 > learned > true > up > > > > case2: "state data" as list leaf level, when , only reply the foo instances with foo-type value "configed", without leaf.. when reply foo instances configed , with leaf. And the learned instance should define a new list as "list foo-learned" > > reply: > > > > foo1 > configed > true > > > foo2 > configed > true > > > > reply: > > > foo1 > configed > true > up > > > foo2 > configed > true > up > > > I am not following since I do not know what is config true/false in your YANG snippet. Anyway, you may want to look into RFC 8342 and draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-06 (which is in the IESG) if you work on a new implementation. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Jul 11 04:23:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EEE1130E8B; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 04:23:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 93HnbFghy8ul; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 04:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (trail.lhotka.name [77.48.224.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B09130DF1; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 04:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix, from userid 109) id 9F6291820CBC; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:29:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (nat-2.nic.cz [217.31.205.2]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8C1F018202E0; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:29:45 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Kent Watsen , Juergen Schoenwaelder Cc: "netconf\@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf\@ietf.org" , Robert Wilton In-Reply-To: <13FABA4A-C367-4E27-88FF-3EA48638249F@juniper.net> References: <82A8420F-445C-42BD-9A47-DCF62A9864BC@juniper.net> <20180709173041.xkihqyccjcucjslj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <13FABA4A-C367-4E27-88FF-3EA48638249F@juniper.net> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:22:56 +0200 Message-ID: <87va9mf23z.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] nmda-restconf operations (was: netconf-binary-encoding comments) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:23:14 -0000 Kent Watsen writes: >>> This isn't what I meant. To be more specific, I'm wondering if the nmda-restconf >>> draft would benefit from having a sentence like: >>> >>> A RESTCONF server supporting NMDA datastores MAY implement the >>> "ietf-netconf" [RFC6241] and "ietf-netconf-nmda" [I-D. ietf-netconf-nmda- >>> netconf] modules to enable the NETCONF operations defined in those >>> drafts to appear {+restconf}/operations resource. >>> >>> Note: I put "MAY" as RESTCONF may someday have a more native way to do this. >>> >> >> Well, "ietf-netconf" does not really support NMDA well and this is why >> we have "ietf-netconf-nmda". Does not make much sense to point to >> "ietf-netconf" in an NMDA document. > > But we'd still need lock, unlock, commit, commit-confirmed, etc., > right? These would make RESTCONF server stateful, thus violating REST principles. My draft https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions/ tries to achieve similar effects in a RESTful way. Lada > > Maybe it's a moot point, since ietf-netconf-nmda requires that ietf-netconf > is implemented too, but I thought being explicit would be helpful here. > > So, adding something like this to nmda-restconf would be good? > > > Kent // contributor > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Wed Jul 11 08:16:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D33C124D68 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:16:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Ow9rAA5wFr9 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 713A4130DFD for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:16:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5220; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531322160; x=1532531760; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=rXkNKzemSReT3Y4mHqgAvrQUNHGUzQKDwh79ibQxQKQ=; b=SJgZpYjY+eAajxKj0mNiZgnEnYCL9aHyJtf6Nf5VfZXYiC0VGe8aIaZR MrhpebtTtEo/GxVa83FVimf070UnTcb3METVjSjQkl7P1KlVMpCKPoPM5 kZCbgrmiZHBMimztVwGnh72LOLPUlmMyR8cebKiYrahyB8J4aZEfihGfq s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CbAACNHkZb/4QNJK1ZAxkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGDSWN/Mot0jDiCC5UyFIFmCx+ETQKCPSE0GAECAQECAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?CbRwMhTYBAQEBAgE6DTIFCQICAQgOAgUDDREFCxsXJQEBBA4NEQKDBoF3CKt?= =?us-ascii?q?CgyWGWwUFiHmBVz+BEIMRhEgBEgEHAjcmhQ8CmVcJAo8dgUuGe4UjkWsCERM?= =?us-ascii?q?BgSQdOGFxcBU7gmqCTINnih+MGIEfgRoBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,338,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="204242507" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 11 Jul 2018 15:15:59 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (xch-rtp-011.cisco.com [64.101.220.151]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6BFFwT8001476 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:15:59 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:15:58 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:15:58 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Lou Berger , Kent Watsen , Netconf Thread-Topic: HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) Thread-Index: AdQYqhJAfRhRABCKSmSEYThB7pSKSAAUrocAAAnSZFA= Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:15:58 +0000 Message-ID: <3a07a3b121ed4bf589544ba94c3e4c66@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <20180711055154.qzmg2ofdid5dog7y@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180711055154.qzmg2ofdid5dog7y@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.35.164.34] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:16:04 -0000 > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, july 11, 2018 1:52 AM >=20 > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:15:45AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 10, 2018 6:43 PM > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:27:23PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > > From: Lou Berger, July 10, 2018 4:43 PM > > > > > > > > > > On 7/10/2018 4:37 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> So in short, after RFC 8071 call home, you get NC/RC client > > > > > >> and server starting with a exchange. Ideally, the > > > > > >> client would indicate its readiness to receive unsolicited > > > > > >> notifications before you push notifications to the client > > > > > >> (and the notification sender may even be interested to know > > > > > >> that it is sending notifications to a remote system that does = not > just drop them). > > > > > >> So either the clients invokes an RPC to start the > > > > > >> notification flow or, if you want to optimize one round trip, > > > > > >> the client includes a special > > > > > >> > > > > > >> :willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications > > > > > >> > > > > > >> capability in the exchange. > > > > > > I agree that a client-advertised capability would be goodness > > > > > > here, but it only works for NC-clients, there is no corollary f= or RC- > clients. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe clients should send a "willing-to-receive-unsolicited- > notifications" > > > > > > RPC instead? > > > > > or an an error when an unsolicited notification is received by a > > > > > client that doesn't support it. > > > > > (optimizing for what I think suspect will be the common case in > > > > > the long > > > > > term...) > > > > > > > > Effectively this is what draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif, > > > > section 4.2 defines > > > now. A successful POST of a "subscription-started" notification > > > must occur before events are sent. Failure to receiver an OK for > > > the POST means an error to the publisher. > > > > > > > > Some form of RESTCONF Call Home with capability advertisement > > > > could also > > > occur before the "subscription-started" POST. However this > > > advertisement of client capabilities might not be needed for all > implementations. > > > > > > > > > > I fail to understand section 4.2. The first sentence already leaves > > > me > > > puzzled: > > > > > > With HTTP2 connectivity established, a POST of each new > > > "subscription-started" state change notification messages will be > > > addressed to HTTP augmentation code on the receiver capable of > > > accepting and acknowledging to subscription state change > > > notifications. > > > > > > What does this say? And why is this HTTP2 specific? The publisher is > > > the RC server, no? > > > > Actually no. This specification does not use RESTCONF for configured > > subscriptions. (See other email I just sent to Kent.) >=20 > OK. So you have a solution for sending dynamic subscriptions via RC but n= o > solution for sending configured subscriptions via RC since you are actual= ly > inventing a new protocol for this (which for some unknown reason requires > HTTP/2). It has been since IETF 96/97 since we discussed this on the list. The bas= ics are: (a) There is no bi-directional signaling with configured subscriptions, hen= ce no need for RESTCONF. This simplifies interactions, and widens the poss= ible device list. (b) With HTTP2 there is no need for SSE. Each subscription becomes its own= HTTP2 POST. (c) With HTTP2 there is no head-of-line blocking between independent subscr= iptions. =20 > > > So the RC server does HTTP transactions agains the client? This does > > > not seem to have anything to do with how the call home RFC works. > > > > > > I am not saying that what Figure 3 shows won't work, it just has > > > nothing to do with call home. You are reversing the RC client and > > > server roles, call home only reverses the connection establishment > roles. Big difference. > > > > Yes this is a big difference. Especially as RESTCONF is removed as wel= l for > configured subscriptions. > > > > Per the other thread, I am actually quite fine with removing call home = for > configured subscriptions if nobody else sees a need for the receiver to > initiate this connection. That would make life simpler. > > >=20 > The receiver? I read in 4.1: >=20 > If the above conditions are met, then the publisher MUST initiate a > transport session via RESTCONF call home [RFC8071], section 4.1 to > that receiver. >=20 > Still puzzled. Yes, this needs to be updated. Per the other thread, this requirements sta= tement is left in as a proxy for what type of connection establishment (wit= h underlying security mechanisms) might be required for the HTTP2 connectio= n. I.e., the HTTP2 still needs to go over TLS, how do we accomplish this. Eric =20 > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Jul 11 08:40:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C849130DFC for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:40:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RiQ5yY9rrH2C for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22f.google.com (mail-lf0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BD7C130F36 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id a4-v6so21656790lff.5 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:40:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=w9tD0DeAWCk09UHVOeU1eJO6K1yzjB8e4S1ha32vG9k=; b=iADMDhCJsRKRC7Mk/196fhSavHD/vL4bxsBRorcN3c9Gj4uN91QOImcqQ84VFK8AK7 Z7nUsH1fyDm1W67eUk8iRrTZksHyBpJFie9jAWh1DzVEpMbCMRjHITyS2ceiK29jQMK+ z0Nn9i2G1n5CYXK3r5oAfkQ5E5X7X5UyY6/5WPupvGy2xV3wtxoGvfM0VA55makVJigJ kRGAnq5gzpFk1EaCTh1wYd/n43m5zWfHMENewVWSZexc4Q+TRqk7mpQFv4ZofKlHhvkq Hc+C3ldFWpUNKOJsUACom3C5s/j5GaCsyrd1QGTBErWL/mV8FnKt7Y1DMHotU982kWC2 bJWA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=w9tD0DeAWCk09UHVOeU1eJO6K1yzjB8e4S1ha32vG9k=; b=Xpj1EcMynekHU2VLd+ec+k/94vWoGlfO5gzp909udAJ2U1v0bxifB+JnOer1mKRG3I uGiVhuWp6hhiQ0nny65g1szIjCbmXOCOJLctjDtUn/uBd+YLlUycrnd6mEDVelo89WQE RlkghXEQgAtyjLCwhoxN25Apu+L0u46v5szddoLDI0s5HTpMLjCmXs7nEtsyhUU1AraT XVtkfj0ROYpskbhbLCG/MetJUaYAQ62pq6PtYxP+ByqchC5EaRInLlY+e9XXT7udpzNM Zv5uKMfXWDnsFMgN5VktI2eI52IP8OVJpA9yjqBDs0sDbXidygq7UTYiBUJeFxfoYq8J wp+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0p8E2Yf/FE6WEKm8O6NidKcGt1G+rn13hDABhxfIuMD0HsAtmK s7bQokOu95/TjkOsXX0s6O5Aa5cBYu2lJSHt9QXzOQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcMS6I+V7F2A6SleRrWHJd6AP2e7BYxHmjBJjt7YrhU/ktyK2p/WIy/+SUKUg0Fwk/PRzYkBR8cVtCycxb4eHM= X-Received: by 2002:a19:b598:: with SMTP id g24-v6mr6539318lfk.129.1531323631366; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:40:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:40:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87va9mf23z.fsf@nic.cz> References: <82A8420F-445C-42BD-9A47-DCF62A9864BC@juniper.net> <20180709173041.xkihqyccjcucjslj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <13FABA4A-C367-4E27-88FF-3EA48638249F@juniper.net> <87va9mf23z.fsf@nic.cz> From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:40:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ladislav Lhotka Cc: Kent Watsen , Juergen Schoenwaelder , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" , Robert Wilton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000015881d0570bb1191" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] nmda-restconf operations (was: netconf-binary-encoding comments) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:40:39 -0000 --00000000000015881d0570bb1191 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 4:22 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > Kent Watsen writes: > > >>> This isn't what I meant. To be more specific, I'm wondering if the > nmda-restconf > >>> draft would benefit from having a sentence like: > >>> > >>> A RESTCONF server supporting NMDA datastores MAY implement the > >>> "ietf-netconf" [RFC6241] and "ietf-netconf-nmda" [I-D. > ietf-netconf-nmda- > >>> netconf] modules to enable the NETCONF operations defined in those > >>> drafts to appear {+restconf}/operations resource. > >>> > >>> Note: I put "MAY" as RESTCONF may someday have a more native way to do > this. > >>> > >> > >> Well, "ietf-netconf" does not really support NMDA well and this is why > >> we have "ietf-netconf-nmda". Does not make much sense to point to > >> "ietf-netconf" in an NMDA document. > > > > But we'd still need lock, unlock, commit, commit-confirmed, etc., > > right? > > These would make RESTCONF server stateful, thus violating REST principles. > My > draft > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lhotka-netconf- > restconf-transactions/ > > tries to achieve similar effects in a RESTful way. > > I like the idea of "private candidate" datastores you call "staging". I would keep the term candidate. This idea was discussed during RESTCONF draft development, but as the client creating a "transaction" resource. I think your draft is on the right track, and datastores are protocol-independent so NETCONF can use the same datastores with RPC operations. You ignore the problem of concurrent edits, which is why this idea was not pursued at the time. What happens when the altered data overlaps across private candidates? What are the procedures equivalent to git pull, push, merge? How are collisions handled? What exactly is a collision? Not trivial standards issues to solve. > Lada > > Andy > > > > Maybe it's a moot point, since ietf-netconf-nmda requires that > ietf-netconf > > is implemented too, but I thought being explicit would be helpful here. > > > > So, adding something like this to nmda-restconf would be good? > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > -- > Ladislav Lhotka > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --00000000000015881d0570bb1191 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 4:22 AM, Ladislav Lhotka <= lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> writes:

>>> This isn't what I meant.=C2=A0 To be more specific, I'= m wondering if the nmda-restconf
>>> draft would benefit from having a sentence like:
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A RESTCONF server supporting NMDA datastores MAY = implement the
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "ietf-netconf" [RFC6241] and "ietf= -netconf-nmda" [I-D. ietf-netconf-nmda-
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 netconf] modules to enable the NETCONF operations= defined in those
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 drafts to appear {+restconf}/operations resource.=
>>>
>>> Note: I put "MAY" as RESTCONF may someday have a mor= e native way to do this.
>>>
>>
>> Well, "ietf-netconf" does not really support NMDA well a= nd this is why
>> we have "ietf-netconf-nmda". Does not make much sense to= point to
>> "ietf-netconf" in an NMDA document.
>
> But we'd still need lock, unlock, commit, commit-confirmed, etc.,<= br> > right?

These would make RESTCONF server stateful, thus violating REST principles. = My
draft

https://datatracker.ietf= .org/doc/draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions/

tries to achieve similar effects in a RESTful way.



I like the idea of &quo= t;private candidate" datastores you call "staging".
I would keep the term candidate.

This idea was d= iscussed during RESTCONF draft development, but
as the client cre= ating a "transaction" resource. I think your draft is on
the right track, and datastores are protocol-independent so NETCONF
=
can use the same datastores with RPC operations.

<= div>You ignore the problem of concurrent edits, which is why this idea was = not pursued
at the time. What happens when the altered data overl= aps across private candidates?
What are the procedures equivalent= to git pull, push, merge?
How are collisions handled? What exact= ly is a collision?
Not trivial standards issues to solve.
=C2=A0
Lada



Andy
=C2=A0
>
> Maybe it's a moot point, since ietf-netconf-nmda requires that iet= f-netconf
> is implemented too, but I thought being explicit would be helpful here= .
>
> So, adding something like this to nmda-restconf would be good?
>
>
> Kent // contributor
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf=

--
Ladislav Lhotka
Head, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

--00000000000015881d0570bb1191-- From nobody Wed Jul 11 08:43:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DAAF130EE5 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:43:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Fsha8kiWSlJ for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACDDC130DFC for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:43:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14902; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531323784; x=1532533384; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=G1WtrCcSEA5PTxD+yySEi3umu+ViK3iPIZ6Eftxu+Sc=; b=DioxWB0XmVRVEd+yjy6+CeMpUSJ+rfr3djzqEJoeKxGv3mhdy6fQ/66X Lo6q8Yok8+ejlrRwPXOYkVxg7uzVu5KAGWNcRf+C47MZets6cN6VNizqY UAcu5UmPom6Fqlufqnc8AdY028JRKscQhG1LAOa7d5xitBRyXS0It17i3 I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CcAABBJEZb/4QNJK1ZAxkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGCU0wqY38oCoNwiASMOIILkCSFDoF6CxgBCoQDRgIXgiY?= =?us-ascii?q?hNBgBAgEBAgEBAm0cDIU2AQEBAQQBIQpBCw4EARgFAw0WBAMCBBkMCxQSAQQ?= =?us-ascii?q?OBQiCTUyBG2QPqg+BLooBBQWIeYFXP4c6AQGBSiQJChURgjqCVQKZVwkCiGy?= =?us-ascii?q?GMY1pkWsCERMBgSQdOIFScBU7gmmCTYNnhGGFPm+MSIEaAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,338,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="420273284" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 11 Jul 2018 15:43:03 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6BFh3WV029978 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:43:03 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:43:02 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:43:02 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Andy Bierman CC: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Kent Watsen , Netconf Thread-Topic: HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is SSE over HTTP1.1 necessary too? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) Thread-Index: AdQYqufU0EVBnOscSI2bwl9YP08sXA== Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:43:02 +0000 Message-ID: <837fb78118064c269d0312d010de5607@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.35.164.34] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_837fb78118064c269d0312d010de5607XCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is SSE over HTTP1.1 necessary too? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) 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X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 634C0130F58 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:36:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SEXW1TV0upin for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No 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aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 11 Jul 2018 16:36:47 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6BGalNU007903; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:36:47 GMT To: "netconf@ietf.org" , Ladislav Lhotka From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 17:36:47 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:36:52 -0000 Hi Lada, I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments below. So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not RESTCONF needs this functionality or not.  I've heard some operators state that they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and hence don't have the need for a server side staging area.  Perhaps a good question to ask in Montreal? The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical solution, and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging areas (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared lockable candidate datastore.  This follows my belief that loosely coupled concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. with shared locking). 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all.  Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying .  I.e. your staging datastores should update on a commit operation, just like a commit of updates .  is always just updated as a side effect of a write to , and as such is a tangential consideration. 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as per draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1.  The new staging datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit from ietf-datastores:datastore identity.  I think that this probably also more closely aligns to restful principals. 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to when they are committed.  I think that clients may also want to see the combined configuration of the current contents of with the delta held in applied.  This could be exposed either as (i) a new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-only datastore.  A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would be to one of the other two latter options. 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then should they also be added to NETCONF?  If they are added to both then I think that they should be added in the same way, as much as possible, perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive text?  In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing similar or equivalent text in two places. But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly warrants some WG discussion. Thanks, Rob From nobody Wed Jul 11 09:40:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61AD130E69 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:40:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jsk6zsp-LdVg for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1A1B130E45 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:40:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1015; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531327220; x=1532536820; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ff0UnptbTu89ZVRnNbVtSpRIsLhqDZwdyA7g9cxku50=; b=K44TeSMV2YzAFtDWB/OF5rNbJtXmPRYliPW2rJD9yhyR4UQvYjCiWXMM YTKhGPUXX40MO1XZF0cEsjA6PCMYKAYQKVQPTw3KNkAJb7yJHESdpA9Kf IzGHAK63qng0+4S44o8OIW3pPw5VOz9Z+hHFpS3b4rUKfYwO9/TOkZeYq 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BtAgDgMUZb/xbLJq1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYUrhCKIY404LJcsC4RsAoJeOBQBAgEBAgEBAm0ohTcBBSM?= =?us-ascii?q?PAQVRCxgCAgkdAgJXBgEMCAEBEAeDBYIAqiiBLoRbhSqBC4lKP4EQJ4Jqh3y?= =?us-ascii?q?CVQKRb4doCY8hBogZhUiMPoVUgVghgVIzGggbFYMlkFM+jWIBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,338,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="5109542" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 11 Jul 2018 16:40:18 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6BGeHk9012360; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:40:18 GMT To: Balazs Lengyel , netconf@ietf.org References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 17:40:17 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:40:22 -0000 I completely agree. On 10/07/2018 13:53, Balazs Lengyel wrote: > Hello, > We would need Yang-Push yesterday. We really-really need a basic > solution (dynamic-subscription with Netconf transport) now. IMHO we do > have an agreement on this basic part of the function. > > This has been dragging along for a long time and we see a chance of > other people choosing a completely different solution unless we manage > to agree on the standard soon. I got comments from the ONAP community: > YangPush could be used, it looks nice, but when will it be ready? > > I see the value of configured subscriptions, of multiple transports, > etc. but if they keep the basic solution from being available I am > screwed. I appreciate the good work of many people on this topic, but > I would propose that we consider cutting out any feature from a "first > release" of  YP unless we manage to get it accepted by the end of > August in WGLC. > regards Balazs > > P.S. Big bang versus agile? > From nobody Wed Jul 11 10:10:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E55130E69 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:10:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H2gDRoc4XlNx for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64049130E91 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id f8-v6so2249333ljk.1 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:10:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5Jei3V9c/+dD4n2KpKAcYRpcxtDFOVL9mqjYgmq9roc=; b=PIpvwMyVfRqb2r1z17W7W+FTzWMJC+U5+j6czAo/JMi8nqA5tq4yQNrOYPTnpznEvZ Qg7XNjni2lIQoAL0cWxqgA6e5vD85Q8eOYJwgFTeMh11j7NQcyPiu5+xGb80vOp1Tlio dAsAGe9iY9yrA61SJP2FE+ekue+JTsLWMLs7OEiZdrUIXtT6q/u/JpGrAPz+GBBTpGP7 AU3DtCsrrvzAsZRnsf46zjMN0MFHMa56N8+dJgfqEb4ZXEhJxWbfaWkbqM61833Crm/+ 2z2NDAQROVCPseZe+PyHNy/TQOJ4kLqg0huvM7x7gNDG0ztGkmIqCFpaOC9yv2ZQkAz5 i/nw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5Jei3V9c/+dD4n2KpKAcYRpcxtDFOVL9mqjYgmq9roc=; b=JK8rQW+JwOiW/Ud2C+0liy60kHK7IVehUJmkn3eZzIuwAMxim1c8D9Rx4ZdKCOoiKh 8TAkvdPgVBgLuMD8U97oyO5ciX1q5KNbsuLCJF49sgU0GBNBRxOowNZnAOJqyr1+CX3Q /wO/GIxNXxsLFaNovbuPBxknamPhewYlthaW/Q/ANn8N14DydVG/SVtUR9STXg1dMT0L 3cp0nZQnhOK/A7RaeBtRZv95m40pSvvnFx4wpwPX0PhsWJ4rczJc2mefqbv20bekR+OS s4ock9m7zw0bASWPAnViUy76+kvVkeeXbmL0kAFapw7iEzdOhW4qWiM+Fkx9xdD35z8R KbgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3LiAxtAx5PE5Kpx0oCa9WAZIytbu8EU7LTtlmoTbFmkMzeHrKZ a19Myckb1ekFVWnvkjAZzrNnf8RThqqjBdZs+XjIGg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcf48KIR/4H58L17APSyAJku5rIRPqEaS5TMsORwnFadP5EspLvxIDzWvZ3v9ZKAxNSzP4JQP/m1Xir0+tfTB8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:1c6:: with SMTP id f67-v6mr19712432lji.88.1531329002572; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:10:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:10:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:10:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Wilton Cc: Balazs Lengyel , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003ba4080570bc515e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 17:10:09 -0000 --0000000000003ba4080570bc515e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I would support the following actions: 1) move configured notifications to another draft so dynamic subscriptions can move forward. 2) make this draft NETCONF only and defer RESTCONF notifications until there is sufficient demand and consensus on how to do it. 3) move all subscription monitoring to another draft or remove it. (The verbose notifications already define for subscription state changes are sufficient). I think this would leave the RPC operations and notification events, which is all YANG Push should need to move forward. IMO a "binary push" transport is more important than items 1 -3 above. Andy On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Robert Wilton < rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > I completely agree. > > > On 10/07/2018 13:53, Balazs Lengyel wrote: > >> Hello, >> We would need Yang-Push yesterday. We really-really need a basic solution >> (dynamic-subscription with Netconf transport) now. IMHO we do have an >> agreement on this basic part of the function. >> >> This has been dragging along for a long time and we see a chance of other >> people choosing a completely different solution unless we manage to agree >> on the standard soon. I got comments from the ONAP community: YangPush >> could be used, it looks nice, but when will it be ready? >> >> I see the value of configured subscriptions, of multiple transports, etc. >> but if they keep the basic solution from being available I am screwed. I >> appreciate the good work of many people on this topic, but I would propose >> that we consider cutting out any feature from a "first release" of YP >> unless we manage to get it accepted by the end of August in WGLC. >> regards Balazs >> >> P.S. Big bang versus agile? >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --0000000000003ba4080570bc515e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I would support the following actio= ns:
=C2=A0 1) move configured notifications to another draft so d= ynamic subscriptions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 can move forward.
=
=C2=A0 2) make this draft NETCONF only and defer RESTCONF notification= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 until there is sufficient demand and conse= nsus on how to do it.
=C2=A0 3) move all subscription monitoring = to another draft or remove it.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(The ve= rbose notifications already define for subscription state changes
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 are sufficient).

I think this would leave the RPC oper= ations and notification events, which
is al= l YANG Push should need to move forward. IMO a "binary push" tran= sport
is more important than items 1 -3 abo= ve.

Andy
On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Robert Wilton = <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wr= ote:
I completely agree.


On 10/07/2018 13:53, Balazs Lengyel wrote:
Hello,
We would need Yang-Push yesterday. We really-really need a basic solution (= dynamic-subscription with Netconf transport) now. IMHO we do have an agreem= ent on this basic part of the function.

This has been dragging along for a long time and we see a chance of other p= eople choosing a completely different solution unless we manage to agree on= the standard soon. I got comments from the ONAP community: YangPush could = be used, it looks nice, but when will it be ready?

I see the value of configured subscriptions, of multiple transports, etc. b= ut if they keep the basic solution from being available I am screwed. I app= reciate the good work of many people on this topic, but I would propose tha= t we consider cutting out any feature from a "first release" of= =C2=A0 YP unless we manage to get it accepted by the end of August in WGLC.=
regards Balazs

P.S. Big bang versus agile?


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

--0000000000003ba4080570bc515e-- From nobody Wed Jul 11 10:16:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6645130E69; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:16:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nic.cz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a_o5ODWNpDDQ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [217.31.204.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74C68130E40; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from birdie (unknown [IPv6:2a01:5e0:29:ffff:ffc6:c393:cdb9:8db1]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2B1CC60502; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 19:16:26 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1531329386; bh=smbRTmrAssIlMr6GOyP14w/+gsk3ju5lX1fjzvISMIc=; h=From:To:Date; b=awoztUtD2v0AyjGaQECy9Yg9Mm+VZtdpCeDMT9kQFZIfEL+8BK1N2Y5G0U+4F9n/7 1YxrrplxdI3/RjmQn7Eytp4u+REuvB9IpdsXtwas8xkGF8IBys53rDNeRWJXgWjiZc mRhwWftDIUfB2cUb/lhPIt0isitEKJD9avlzjFyc= Message-ID: <17b6cb1c2cd297a11b2dc6d4b54647aa0f4a47b7.camel@nic.cz> From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Andy Bierman Cc: Kent Watsen , Juergen Schoenwaelder , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" , Robert Wilton Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 19:16:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <82A8420F-445C-42BD-9A47-DCF62A9864BC@juniper.net> <20180709173041.xkihqyccjcucjslj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <13FABA4A-C367-4E27-88FF-3EA48638249F@juniper.net> <87va9mf23z.fsf@nic.cz> Organization: CZ.NIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.28.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.2 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] nmda-restconf operations (was: netconf-binary-encoding comments) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 17:16:33 -0000 On Wed, 2018-07-11 at 08:40 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 4:22 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > Kent Watsen writes: > > > > >>> This isn't what I meant. To be more specific, I'm wondering if the > > nmda-restconf > > >>> draft would benefit from having a sentence like: > > >>> > > >>> A RESTCONF server supporting NMDA datastores MAY implement the > > >>> "ietf-netconf" [RFC6241] and "ietf-netconf-nmda" [I-D. ietf-netconf- > > nmda- > > >>> netconf] modules to enable the NETCONF operations defined in those > > >>> drafts to appear {+restconf}/operations resource. > > >>> > > >>> Note: I put "MAY" as RESTCONF may someday have a more native way to do > > this. > > >>> > > >> > > >> Well, "ietf-netconf" does not really support NMDA well and this is why > > >> we have "ietf-netconf-nmda". Does not make much sense to point to > > >> "ietf-netconf" in an NMDA document. > > > > > > But we'd still need lock, unlock, commit, commit-confirmed, etc., > > > right? > > > > These would make RESTCONF server stateful, thus violating REST principles. > > My > > draft > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions/ > > > > tries to achieve similar effects in a RESTful way. > > > > > I like the idea of "private candidate" datastores you call "staging". > I would keep the term candidate. The problem with this is that in NETCONF has a looser semantics (it can also be shared). > > This idea was discussed during RESTCONF draft development, but > as the client creating a "transaction" resource. I think your draft is on > the right track, and datastores are protocol-independent so NETCONF > can use the same datastores with RPC operations. Yes, it can certainly be improved. I already have some pending updates, but I wanted to keep it simple for start. > > You ignore the problem of concurrent edits, which is why this idea was not > pursued > at the time. What happens when the altered data overlaps across private > candidates? I don't ignore it, the text says that the user's staging datastore has to be atomically merged into , I just didn't want to specify the procedure. In any case, the result has to be a valid . But I am open to a discussion. > What are the procedures equivalent to git pull, push, merge? > How are collisions handled? What exactly is a collision? > Not trivial standards issues to solve. I think it can be left open, I even suspect there is no universal solution suitable for all use cases. Our implementation (JetConf) does the following: - each user's edit operation is applied to the staging datastore and also recorded in a journal - at commit, if hasn't been changed in the mean time, then the staging datastore simply becomes - otherwise, the edit operations from the journal are applied sequentially on the actual contents of . (Actually, we are not NMDA-compatible yet and don't have but it works this way). Lada > > > Lada > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > Maybe it's a moot point, since ietf-netconf-nmda requires that ietf- > > netconf > > > is implemented too, but I thought being explicit would be helpful here. > > > > > > So, adding something like this to nmda-restconf would be good? > > > > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Netconf mailing list > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Wed Jul 11 11:21:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68619130E8A; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:21:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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([2601:647:4700:1280:758e:926a:391:f9d6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g23-v6sm27643275pgv.26.2018.07.11.11.41.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.4 \(3445.8.2\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:41:26 -0700 Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" , Ladislav Lhotka Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <755CE201-4550-487A-B0E9-6F0E6C51F2AE@gmail.com> References: To: Robert Wilton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 18:41:32 -0000 WG, This draft now is on the agenda for the meeting on Monday, afternoon = session #I from 13:30-15:30. Lada, you do have your 15 min. Mahesh & Kent. > On Jul 11, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Robert Wilton = wrote: >=20 > Hi Lada, >=20 > I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments below. >=20 > So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not RESTCONF = needs this functionality or not. I've heard some operators state that = they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and hence = don't have the need for a server side staging area. Perhaps a good = question to ask in Montreal? >=20 > The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical = solution, and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) >=20 > 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging = areas (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared = lockable candidate datastore. This follows my belief that loosely = coupled concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones = (e.g. with shared locking). >=20 > 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all. = Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying = . I.e. your staging datastores should update on a = commit operation, just like a commit of updates . = is always just updated as a side effect of a write to = , and as such is a tangential consideration. >=20 > 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think = that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients = interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as per = draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1. The new staging = datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit from = ietf-datastores:datastore identity. I think that this probably also = more closely aligns to restful principals. >=20 > 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the = proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to = when they are committed. I think that clients may also want to see the = combined configuration of the current contents of with the = delta held in applied. This could be exposed either as (i) a = new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-only = datastore. A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't = support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would be = to one of the other two latter options. >=20 > 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then = should they also be added to NETCONF? If they are added to both then I = think that they should be added in the same way, as much as possible, = perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive text? = In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC that = describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the = individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing similar = or equivalent text in two places. >=20 > But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly = warrants some WG discussion. >=20 > Thanks, > Rob >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Wed Jul 11 13:48:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3997E1292AD for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:48:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vTy8j-_8H8Hb for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 660651277BB for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8BA7B2321FEF; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 22:48:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 22:48:38 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Lou Berger , Kent Watsen , Netconf Message-ID: <20180711204838.fn2fz4tclanjtj2r@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Lou Berger , Kent Watsen , Netconf References: <20180711055154.qzmg2ofdid5dog7y@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <3a07a3b121ed4bf589544ba94c3e4c66@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3a07a3b121ed4bf589544ba94c3e4c66@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is RESTCONF call home necessary? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 20:48:44 -0000 On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 03:15:58PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, july 11, 2018 1:52 AM > > > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:15:45AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 10, 2018 6:43 PM > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:27:23PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > > > From: Lou Berger, July 10, 2018 4:43 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/10/2018 4:37 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> So in short, after RFC 8071 call home, you get NC/RC client > > > > > > >> and server starting with a exchange. Ideally, the > > > > > > >> client would indicate its readiness to receive unsolicited > > > > > > >> notifications before you push notifications to the client > > > > > > >> (and the notification sender may even be interested to know > > > > > > >> that it is sending notifications to a remote system that does not > > just drop them). > > > > > > >> So either the clients invokes an RPC to start the > > > > > > >> notification flow or, if you want to optimize one round trip, > > > > > > >> the client includes a special > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> :willing-to-receive-unsolicited-notifications > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> capability in the exchange. > > > > > > > I agree that a client-advertised capability would be goodness > > > > > > > here, but it only works for NC-clients, there is no corollary for RC- > > clients. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe clients should send a "willing-to-receive-unsolicited- > > notifications" > > > > > > > RPC instead? > > > > > > or an an error when an unsolicited notification is received by a > > > > > > client that doesn't support it. > > > > > > (optimizing for what I think suspect will be the common case in > > > > > > the long > > > > > > term...) > > > > > > > > > > Effectively this is what draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif, > > > > > section 4.2 defines > > > > now. A successful POST of a "subscription-started" notification > > > > must occur before events are sent. Failure to receiver an OK for > > > > the POST means an error to the publisher. > > > > > > > > > > Some form of RESTCONF Call Home with capability advertisement > > > > > could also > > > > occur before the "subscription-started" POST. However this > > > > advertisement of client capabilities might not be needed for all > > implementations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fail to understand section 4.2. The first sentence already leaves > > > > me > > > > puzzled: > > > > > > > > With HTTP2 connectivity established, a POST of each new > > > > "subscription-started" state change notification messages will be > > > > addressed to HTTP augmentation code on the receiver capable of > > > > accepting and acknowledging to subscription state change > > > > notifications. > > > > > > > > What does this say? And why is this HTTP2 specific? The publisher is > > > > the RC server, no? > > > > > > Actually no. This specification does not use RESTCONF for configured > > > subscriptions. (See other email I just sent to Kent.) > > > > OK. So you have a solution for sending dynamic subscriptions via RC but no > > solution for sending configured subscriptions via RC since you are actually > > inventing a new protocol for this (which for some unknown reason requires > > HTTP/2). > > It has been since IETF 96/97 since we discussed this on the list. The basics are: > > (a) There is no bi-directional signaling with configured subscriptions, hence no need for RESTCONF. This simplifies interactions, and widens the possible device list. > > (b) With HTTP2 there is no need for SSE. Each subscription becomes its own HTTP2 POST. > > (c) With HTTP2 there is no head-of-line blocking between independent subscriptions. OK. I am getting slowly convinced that mixing dynamic subscriptions that run over RESTCONF with configured subscriptions that run over a newly defined protocol into one document is likely not helpful. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Jul 11 13:52:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B8F130E18 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:52:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UzrlvEmHTImy for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50259130DDD for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id AE34E2322053; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 22:52:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 22:52:10 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Andy Bierman , Kent Watsen , Netconf Message-ID: <20180711205210.simibmsmzrmlquou@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Andy Bierman , Kent Watsen , Netconf References: <837fb78118064c269d0312d010de5607@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <837fb78118064c269d0312d010de5607@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is SSE over HTTP1.1 necessary too? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 20:52:14 -0000 On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 03:43:02PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > Earlier versions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif had an SSE option for configured subscriptions over HTTP1.1. This could be re-added. > > To me it seems that just using HTTP2 mechanisms simplifies things enough where it is not necessary to support SSE as well. If someone wants to champion/document the SSE over HTTP1.1 path, that would be great. I am assuming this would be to simplify transition for existing SSE implementations. And especially for such transition issues, I don’t have sufficient context to document without assistance. > Eric, perhaps people prefer an 80% solution that can be finished in reasonable time over a 120% solution that keeps crawling slowly. Divide and conquer is sometimes a good idea. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Jul 11 14:34:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1C9130E84 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 14:34:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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"Jeffrey Ladouceur (jladouce)" To: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: closure on dynamic model changes Thread-Index: AQHUGV7la9Te+CEzBkmk4xlDNnx+yA== Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 21:34:07 +0000 Message-ID: <8A423BD6-E803-426B-B1B7-169186B3B36E@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.213.9] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8A423BD6E803426BB1B7169186B3B36Eciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] closure on dynamic model changes X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 21:34:18 -0000 --_000_8A423BD6E803426BB1B7169186B3B36Eciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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(was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) Thread-Index: AdQYqufU0EVBnOscSI2bwl9YP08sXAAz6iQAAAaSb1A= Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 21:52:33 +0000 Message-ID: <2686183aa7e34ca78714d19d659eecc4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <837fb78118064c269d0312d010de5607@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180711205210.simibmsmzrmlquou@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180711205210.simibmsmzrmlquou@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.41.64.216] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is SSE over HTTP1.1 necessary too? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) 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--_000_9DA54FC9E51F4CF495CD87BE581CA458junipernet_-- From nobody Wed Jul 11 16:41:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68875130F06 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:41:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wE8XAXkVvBUq for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) 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Jg== Received: from nam03-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam03lp0049.outbound.protection.outlook.com [216.32.180.49]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2k5mn5s6hb-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:41:33 -0700 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.200.153) by BYAPR05MB3992.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.199.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.952.12; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 23:41:30 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc]) by BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::959d:9fbe:90e4:3cc%4]) with mapi id 15.20.0952.017; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 23:41:30 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Andy Bierman , Netconf Thread-Topic: HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is SSE over HTTP1.1 necessary too? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) Thread-Index: AdQYqufU0EVBnOscSI2bwl9YP08sXAAriGAAAAIb3oD//9thgA== Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 23:41:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <837fb78118064c269d0312d010de5607@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180711205210.simibmsmzrmlquou@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <2686183aa7e34ca78714d19d659eecc4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <2686183aa7e34ca78714d19d659eecc4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BYAPR05MB3992; 7:OiF2H3yn/nN1AFAHUgKotQUbShxqRTlmdl0XS0h5hw+K6n+ZsRwcTewSPOfKfb6GBEIr0zRlyOUOvPZqrPiD1XUYn0a/A0MTnViA4CqtcrNlbU9dS8IDzWqobPlQ3kYzRoQqhMxo//Df9c7g4MwA7sDyaNXW+FJ1jpayPZQtDLZCfJvnydHpPArVg9RVD7itZZT8LqGQr8rFv4/1oJ5dH5iL/HfENPLp2wBwtDV/DGE9jbn3MGh4W4pbLD1zygSG x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c6b132a1-7a94-4702-d177-08d5e787d427 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652040)(8989117)(5600053)(711020)(4534165)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990107)(48565401081)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:BYAPR05MB3992; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR05MB3992: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(158342451672863); x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(8211001083)(6040522)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(3002001)(93006095)(93001095)(10201501046)(3231311)(944501410)(52105095)(6055026)(149027)(150027)(6041310)(20161123562045)(20161123564045)(20161123560045)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123558120)(6072148)(201708071742011)(7699016); SRVR:BYAPR05MB3992; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BYAPR05MB3992; x-forefront-prvs: 0730093765 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(136003)(396003)(366004)(376002)(39860400002)(346002)(199004)(189003)(25786009)(11346002)(6436002)(97736004)(8936002)(86362001)(476003)(106356001)(305945005)(105586002)(83716003)(82746002)(7736002)(4326008)(76176011)(2616005)(446003)(53936002)(66066001)(2906002)(6246003)(6486002)(6512007)(99286004)(5660300001)(33656002)(478600001)(81156014)(316002)(102836004)(14444005)(36756003)(256004)(6506007)(110136005)(14454004)(229853002)(3846002)(68736007)(186003)(26005)(486006)(58126008)(2900100001)(5250100002)(81166006)(8676002)(54906003)(6116002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BYAPR05MB3992; H:BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: YAldb0x4AcgM7GGoerWvIcXbRSEGNW6cERSUulYhnvWxsTVyQ6VovInu2knrf1bmaZiD6bN3EAXxkn6O5nU1IiuBPrY9GFsk/oC34Nm1A1fUweOPLV+S+pvty1wfnxKd4ZTfpL4CNHFs2Mg4xdi6OqcG1eaKtyu4AqEjK2HDzZlbxzu6RAupf7yHDQGnAQC/UgLdubDNBGufaeXock079KUDywREUobm+ekpga5RsTLUbi+bgKqwoUrqCyZc0CFnAyPz7rwxX56ACVVKehyJAsNANGzfl3u+oz9QyGc0PwJsIscYwJKfIVfkWYXk6IfXMM0LWCNG4CTJS6x7KZv6bUDFhyknDGqxB/184FgXS7U= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c6b132a1-7a94-4702-d177-08d5e787d427 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Jul 2018 23:41:30.7012 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB3992 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-11_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807110248 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] HTTP2 configured subscriptions, is SSE over HTTP1.1 necessary too? (was RE: Anyone want just Configured Subscriptions?) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 23:41:39 -0000 SGkgRXJpYywNCg0KPiBJdCB0b29rIGEgd2hpbGUsIGJ1dCB3ZSBhcmUgYXQgYSAxMDAlIHNvbHV0 aW9uIGZvciBORVRDT05GLiAgVGhpbmdzIA0KPiByZWFsbHkgYXJlIGRvbmUsIChwZW5kaW5nIHRo ZSBjb21wbGV0aW9uIG9mIEtlbnQncyBuZXRjb25mLXNlcnZlciB3b3JrLikNCj4gQ3V0dGluZyB0 aGluZ3MgYmFjayB0byA4MCUgd291bGQgdGFrZSBhbm90aGVyIDIwJSB0aW1lLiAgQW5kIHBlciBv dGhlcnMnIA0KPiBlbWFpbHMsIHRoZSBtYXJrZXQgZGVtYW5kIGlzIG5vdyBvciBuZXZlci4NCg0K V2hlcmUgaXMgdGhlIDEwMCUgc29sdXRpb24/ICBUaGUgZHJhZnRzIGFyZSBzdGlsbCBjaHVybmlu Zy4gIEFzIG9mIHJpZ2h0DQpub3csIHdlIGRvbid0IGhhdmUgYSBzZXQgb2YgZHJhZnRzIHRoYXQg d2UgY2FuIGNhbGwgYW5vdGhlciBXR0xDIG9uLg0KDQpBcyBJIHNlZSBpdCwgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG9u bHkgdHdvIGNob2ljZXM6DQoNCiAxLiByZWR1Y2UgdGhlIHNjb3BlIHRvIGp1c3QgZHluYW1pYyBz dWJzY3JpcHRpb25zLCBoaXQgV0dMQyBhcm91bmQgU2VwDQogICAgYW5kIG1heWJlIGhhdmUgUkZD cyBieSB0aGUgeWVhcidzIGVuZC4gIEFmdGVyIHdoaWNoLCB0aGUgV0cgc2hvdWxkDQogICAgaW1t ZWRpYXRlbHkgc3RhcnQgd29ya2luZyBvbiB0aGUgY29uZmlndXJlZCBzb2x1dGlvbiwgd2l0aCBo b3BlIG9mDQogICAgZ2V0dGluZyBpdCBwdWJsaXNoZWQgaW4gMjAxOSAocG9zc2libHkgYWNoaWV2 YWJsZSBzaW5jZSBtdXN0IG9mIHRoZQ0KICAgIGdyb3VuZHdvcmsgaGFzIGJlZW4gbGFpZCBhbHJl YWR5KQ0KDQogMi4gbWFpbnRhaW4gdGhlIHNjb3BlIHRvIGR5bmFtaWMgKyBjb25maWd1cmVkLCB3 aGljaCB3aWxsIHRha2UgbG9uZ2VyDQogICAgKG1heWJlIG5vdCBtdWNoLCBoYXJkIHRvIHNheSkg dG8gcmVhY2ggV0dMQywgYnV0IGFueSBORVRDT05GIG9yIA0KICAgIFJFU1RDT05GIGJhc2VkIHRy YW5zcG9ydCBub3RpZiBkcmFmdHMgd2lsbCBiZSBibG9ja2VkIGJ5IFJGQyBFZGl0b3INCiAgICB1 bnRpbCB0aGUgY2xpZW50L3NlcnZlciBzdWl0ZSBvZiBkcmFmdHMgY29tcGxldGVzIChyZWFkOiBz b21ldGltZQ0KICAgIG5leHQgeWVhciksIGFuZCB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIGNoYW5jZSB0aGF0IHdlJ2Qg bmVlZCB0byB1cGRhdGUgdGhlbQ0KICAgIGFnYWluIHRoZW4sIGlmIG9ubHkgdG8gZ2VuZXJhdGUg Y29ycmVjdC9maW5hbCB0cmVlLWRpYWdyYW1zLg0KDQpJdCdzIHRoZSBXRydzIGNob2ljZS4gSSBr bm93IHRoYXQgc29tZSBoYXZlIGV4cHJlc3NlZCBpbnRlcmVzdCBpbiBoYXZpbmcNCmp1c3QgZHlu YW1pYyBub3cuICBJIGRvbid0IGhhdmUgYSBzdHJvbmcgb3BpbmlvbiBlaXRoZXIgd2F5LiAgVGhp cyBxdWVzdGlvbg0Kd291bGQgbWFrZSBmb3IgYSBnb29kIGh1bSBuZXh0IHdlZWsuDQoNCg0KS2Vu dCAvLyBjby1jaGFpcg0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Thu Jul 12 06:36:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F1C130F1C for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 06:36:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ieugvGyZHXaE for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 06:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91CFE130F08 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 06:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id w6CDaQeD004826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:36:27 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (134.102.43.163) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:36:21 +0200 To: Andy Bierman , Robert Wilton CC: Netconf References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:30:31 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.43.163] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 13:36:36 -0000 Hi all, I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting WGLC or modularity) with at least 2 variants: * using a call home procedure (or similar rendezvous/join/discovery procedure with a given scope and purpose) creating a series of notification (or a given variant, e.g. bundles) with a kind of solicitation, for example, via the attempt to trigger a dynamic subscription * using a procedure to enable conveyance of notifications (or a given variant, e.g bundles) without solicitation (and maybe a way to signal refusal to accept incoming telemetry in given scopes) This request is based on the need for unboxed things (of any sizes) to find a suitable home - even in unknown territory or challenged by volatile receiver availability. A third variant that is able to create telemetry (assuming a procedure distributing state between potential receivers in order to enable conveyance) with solicitation but without a call home procedure would be convenient (e.g. wrt to subscription resilience or fail-over of subscription state in cases where a home in a group of homes is rendered unavailable). Alas, I am new to this domain and am not sure, if this third usage scenario is in scope here. Viele Grüße, Henk On 07/11/2018 07:10 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > Hi, > > I would support the following actions: >   1) move configured notifications to another draft so dynamic > subscriptions >       can move forward. >   2) make this draft NETCONF only and defer RESTCONF notifications >       until there is sufficient demand and consensus on how to do it. >   3) move all subscription monitoring to another draft or remove it. >        (The verbose notifications already define for subscription state > changes >         are sufficient). > > I think this would leave the RPC operations and notification events, which > is all YANG Push should need to move forward. IMO a "binary push" transport > is more important than items 1 -3 above. > > > Andy > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Robert Wilton > > wrote: > > I completely agree. > > > On 10/07/2018 13:53, Balazs Lengyel wrote: > > Hello, > We would need Yang-Push yesterday. We really-really need a basic > solution (dynamic-subscription with Netconf transport) now. IMHO > we do have an agreement on this basic part of the function. > > This has been dragging along for a long time and we see a chance > of other people choosing a completely different solution unless > we manage to agree on the standard soon. I got comments from the > ONAP community: YangPush could be used, it looks nice, but when > will it be ready? > > I see the value of configured subscriptions, of multiple > transports, etc. but if they keep the basic solution from being > available I am screwed. I appreciate the good work of many > people on this topic, but I would propose that we consider > cutting out any feature from a "first release" of  YP unless we > manage to get it accepted by the end of August in WGLC. > regards Balazs > > P.S. Big bang versus agile? > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > From nobody Thu Jul 12 07:34:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD0913112C for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:34:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id chdbGbMwHaPi for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 165C7131127 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id EC1FA3BA038E6; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:34:21 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:34:23 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.30]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.100]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:34:16 -0700 From: Igor Bryskin To: "henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" , "andy@yumaworks.com" , "rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUGE0HoArrHju7pUuFZlPxwORbe6SKsHGAgAAIToCAAVUBgP//nHg8 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:34:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> , <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_etPan5b4766ff69c7b282440elocalhost_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:34:30 -0000 --_000_etPan5b4766ff69c7b282440elocalhost_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to return home late Thursday. Can we do this any other day beginning= with Monday? Igor From:Henk Birkholz To:Andy Bierman,Robert Wilton, Cc:Netconf, Date:2018-07-12 09:37:14 Subject:Re: [Netconf] YangPush now Hi all, I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting WGLC or modularity) with at least 2 variants: * using a call home procedure (or similar rendezvous/join/discovery procedure with a given scope and purpose) creating a series of notification (or a given variant, e.g. bundles) with a kind of solicitation, for example, via the attempt to trigger a dynamic subscriptio= n * using a procedure to enable conveyance of notifications (or a given variant, e.g bundles) without solicitation (and maybe a way to signal refusal to accept incoming telemetry in given scopes) This request is based on the need for unboxed things (of any sizes) to find a suitable home - even in unknown territory or challenged by volatile receiver availability. A third variant that is able to create telemetry (assuming a procedure distributing state between potential receivers in order to enable conveyance) with solicitation but without a call home procedure would be convenient (e.g. wrt to subscription resilience or fail-over of subscription state in cases where a home in a group of homes is rendered unavailable). Alas, I am new to this domain and am not sure, if this third usage scenario is in scope here. Viele Gr=FC=DFe, Henk On 07/11/2018 07:10 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > Hi, > > I would support the following actions: > 1) move configured notifications to another draft so dynamic > subscriptions > can move forward. > 2) make this draft NETCONF only and defer RESTCONF notifications > until there is sufficient demand and consensus on how to do it. > 3) move all subscription monitoring to another draft or remove it. > (The verbose notifications already define for subscription state > changes > are sufficient). > > I think this would leave the RPC operations and notification events, whic= h > is all YANG Push should need to move forward. IMO a "binary push" transpo= rt > is more important than items 1 -3 above. > > > Andy > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Robert Wilton > > wrote: > > I completely agree. > > > On 10/07/2018 13:53, Balazs Lengyel wrote: > > Hello, > We would need Yang-Push yesterday. We really-really need a basic > solution (dynamic-subscription with Netconf transport) now. IMHO > we do have an agreement on this basic part of the function. > > This has been dragging along for a long time and we see a chance > of other people choosing a completely different solution unless > we manage to agree on the standard soon. I got comments from the > ONAP community: YangPush could be used, it looks nice, but when > will it be ready? > > I see the value of configured subscriptions, of multiple > transports, etc. but if they keep the basic solution from being > available I am screwed. I appreciate the good work of many > people on this topic, but I would propose that we consider > cutting out any feature from a "first release" of YP unless we > manage to get it accepted by the end of August in WGLC. > regards Balazs > > P.S. Big bang versus agile? > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > _______________________________________________ Netconf mailing list Netconf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf --_000_etPan5b4766ff69c7b282440elocalhost_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have to return home late Thursday. Can we do this any other day begi= nning with Monday?

Igor
From:Henk Birkholz
To:Andy Bierman,Robert Wilton,
Cc:Netconf,
Date:2018-07-12 09:37:14
Subject:Re: [Netconf] YangPush n= ow

Hi all,

I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions (not=
necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting WGLC or modularity) with at least 2 variants:

* using a call home procedure (or similar rendezvous/join/discovery
procedure with a given scope and purpose) creating a series of
notification (or a given variant, e.g. bundles) with a kind of
solicitation, for example, via the attempt to trigger a dynamic subscriptio= n

* using a procedure to enable conveyance of notifications (or a given
variant, e.g bundles) without solicitation (and maybe a way to signal
refusal to accept incoming telemetry in given scopes)

This request is based on the need for unboxed things (of any sizes) to
find a suitable home - even in unknown territory or challenged by
volatile receiver availability.

A third variant that is able to create telemetry (assuming a procedure
distributing state between potential receivers in order to enable
conveyance) with solicitation but without a call home procedure would be convenient (e.g. wrt to subscription resilience or fail-over of
subscription state in cases where a home in a group of homes is rendered unavailable). Alas, I am new to this domain and am not sure, if this
third usage scenario is in scope here.

Viele Gr=FC=DFe,

Henk


On 07/11/2018 07:10 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I would support the following actions:
>    1) move configured notifications to another draft so dyna= mic
> subscriptions
>        can move forward.
>    2) make this draft NETCONF only and defer RESTCONF notifi= cations
>        until there is sufficient demand and consen= sus on how to do it.
>    3) move all subscription monitoring to another draft or r= emove it.
>         (The verbose notifications already de= fine for subscription state
> changes
>          are sufficient).
>
> I think this would leave the RPC operations and notification events, w= hich
> is all YANG Push should need to move forward. IMO a "binary push&= quot; transport
> is more important than items 1 -3 above.
>
>
> Andy
>
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Robert Wilton
> <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org
> <mailto:rwi= lton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>
>     I completely agree.
>
>
>     On 10/07/2018 13:53, Balazs Lengyel wrote:
>
>         Hello,
>         We would need Yang-Pus= h yesterday. We really-really need a basic
>         solution (dynamic-subs= cription with Netconf transport) now. IMHO
>         we do have an agreemen= t on this basic part of the function.
>
>         This has been dragging= along for a long time and we see a chance
>         of other people choosi= ng a completely different solution unless
>         we manage to agree on = the standard soon. I got comments from the
>         ONAP community: YangPu= sh could be used, it looks nice, but when
>         will it be ready?
>
>         I see the value of con= figured subscriptions, of multiple
>         transports, etc. but i= f they keep the basic solution from being
>         available I am screwed= . I appreciate the good work of many
>         people on this topic, = but I would propose that we consider
>         cutting out any featur= e from a "first release" of  YP unless we
>         manage to get it accep= ted by the end of August in WGLC.
>         regards Balazs
>
>         P.S. Big bang versus a= gile?
>
>
>     ______________________________________________= _
>     Netconf mailing list
>     Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
 --_000_etPan5b4766ff69c7b282440elocalhost_-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 07:43:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3800212D949 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:43:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bJesYfNz9zqc for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64CC9130E3E for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id v9-v6so11865897ljk.4 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:43:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=t9I3XjTMo+Hb0ISUtvpOfsYvhwf+5QRpXcaPtaLmZKE=; b=KpWupNIbSyrfk2/DZo3sYgKlpGUFwWBRiWOSBjGQuu2gwndSi3sVSs5Va91X83dA05 O80kaReDGu6CvrMkM0+ERoeu/MhcYuzf1G7WD7y/rbfh8IT2qHR0kC2pxnYpYHSpXwe8 WlfAreEx8u4EEwapty6OTGl4pLD65j+h6Cssyg2YuByTbEqTOIOgEOg0bmYRsqqf1I1e +/z8sp1PgjtMv3W+c4s3OO20MxjGSoTwoAqCu1kbNF6r31n/lC43ZeqMIwzhK9M20LWT 2tVdEJmP2fb1rYs+pWzubj5wbNx0o6Ev7b1igdQ2f7LpOOfBHWASSR665FPpILrv1P37 Tz3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t9I3XjTMo+Hb0ISUtvpOfsYvhwf+5QRpXcaPtaLmZKE=; b=hZuZOE0paGrOhPoqFakR5vrNLy8lbI0lN3XBQT30odyKYX7mC9tdJJM56Lc7peJarT /eitoB/NLdb+82Tykdj0+THkrq1mT2+cN4Vqmj4Wf6QJ34vPsOMzompjPIflxb+1x3/8 /ol0f+5CB/S0PiwNwS0n856/BeWywVUFIMbJWRbwi0ej4a/dKppu/hP2/4c4vYn99BKC yWQnucuHnOMtMsk/GeuNqJ+k/dmW9b8mpHl/bOThGHHNBUYywzdf2ySG1PxHntqGSeSD yiOFLQedzQbe8Wgo4Z6a4sHqPDvERRNME1ZM+P/VIYM+Iv+cLymO/FMLvx1RZmjfLCbv wTIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEgRh4iA7p0ixsHGJq3TpJh25xfXUVZrnGm04Aw1ggRXCc90kMt afI1hRiHIQnj5DhBGd94nTxzlKH+XRBQ7If8ihOFlg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeO1CGkrblsnEwZEwfyyDxfVPr2V8bQgQuMlQXzLUvVpgr3NkPyKoVgkUwfiADvp+ijUY4JfSVxEexf3GI2bak= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8950:: with SMTP id b16-v6mr806768ljk.111.1531406629400; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:43:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:43:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <17b6cb1c2cd297a11b2dc6d4b54647aa0f4a47b7.camel@nic.cz> References: <82A8420F-445C-42BD-9A47-DCF62A9864BC@juniper.net> <20180709173041.xkihqyccjcucjslj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <13FABA4A-C367-4E27-88FF-3EA48638249F@juniper.net> <87va9mf23z.fsf@nic.cz> <17b6cb1c2cd297a11b2dc6d4b54647aa0f4a47b7.camel@nic.cz> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:43:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ladislav Lhotka Cc: Kent Watsen , Juergen Schoenwaelder , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" , Robert Wilton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000027099c0570ce6447" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] nmda-restconf operations (was: netconf-binary-encoding comments) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:43:57 -0000 --00000000000027099c0570ce6447 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > On Wed, 2018-07-11 at 08:40 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 4:22 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > > Kent Watsen writes: > > > > > > >>> This isn't what I meant. To be more specific, I'm wondering if the > > > nmda-restconf > > > >>> draft would benefit from having a sentence like: > > > >>> > > > >>> A RESTCONF server supporting NMDA datastores MAY implement the > > > >>> "ietf-netconf" [RFC6241] and "ietf-netconf-nmda" [I-D. > ietf-netconf- > > > nmda- > > > >>> netconf] modules to enable the NETCONF operations defined in > those > > > >>> drafts to appear {+restconf}/operations resource. > > > >>> > > > >>> Note: I put "MAY" as RESTCONF may someday have a more native way > to do > > > this. > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> Well, "ietf-netconf" does not really support NMDA well and this is > why > > > >> we have "ietf-netconf-nmda". Does not make much sense to point to > > > >> "ietf-netconf" in an NMDA document. > > > > > > > > But we'd still need lock, unlock, commit, commit-confirmed, etc., > > > > right? > > > > > > These would make RESTCONF server stateful, thus violating REST > principles. > > > My > > > draft > > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lhotka-netconf- > restconf-transactions/ > > > > > > tries to achieve similar effects in a RESTful way. > > > > > > > > > I like the idea of "private candidate" datastores you call "staging". > > I would keep the term candidate. > > The problem with this is that in NETCONF has a looser > semantics (it > can also be shared). > > > > > This idea was discussed during RESTCONF draft development, but > > as the client creating a "transaction" resource. I think your draft is on > > the right track, and datastores are protocol-independent so NETCONF > > can use the same datastores with RPC operations. > > Yes, it can certainly be improved. I already have some pending updates, > but I > wanted to keep it simple for start. > > > > > You ignore the problem of concurrent edits, which is why this idea was > not > > pursued > > at the time. What happens when the altered data overlaps across private > > candidates? > > I don't ignore it, the text says that the user's staging datastore has to > be > atomically merged into , I just didn't want to specify the > procedure. > In any case, the result has to be a valid . But I am open to a > discussion. > Leaving it as an implementation detail is the IETF's way of ignoring problems. > > > What are the procedures equivalent to git pull, push, merge? > > How are collisions handled? What exactly is a collision? > > Not trivial standards issues to solve. > > I think it can be left open, I even suspect there is no universal solution > suitable for all use cases. Our implementation (JetConf) does the > following: > > - each user's edit operation is applied to the staging datastore and also > recorded in a journal > > - at commit, if hasn't been changed in the mean time, then the > staging datastore simply becomes > > - otherwise, the edit operations from the journal are applied sequentially > on > the actual contents of . > > This is "last one wins". You will find this sort of works for create and merge but no so much for replace and delete. > (Actually, we are not NMDA-compatible yet and don't have but it > works > this way). > > Lada > Andy > > > > > > Lada > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it's a moot point, since ietf-netconf-nmda requires that ietf- > > > netconf > > > > is implemented too, but I thought being explicit would be helpful > here. > > > > > > > > So, adding something like this to nmda-restconf would be good? > > > > > > > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Netconf mailing list > > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > -- > Ladislav Lhotka > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > --00000000000027099c0570ce6447 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Ladislav Lhotka <= ;lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
On Wed, 2018-07-11 at 08:40 = -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 4:22 AM, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
> > Kent Watsen <kwatsen@ju= niper.net> writes:
> >
> > >>> This isn't what I meant.=C2=A0 To be more specif= ic, I'm wondering if the
> > nmda-restconf
> > >>> draft would benefit from having a sentence like:
> > >>>
> > >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A RESTCONF server supporting NMDA datas= tores MAY implement the
> > >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "ietf-netconf" [RFC6241] and = "ietf-netconf-nmda" [I-D. ietf-netconf-
> > nmda-
> > >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 netconf] modules to enable the NETCONF = operations defined in those
> > >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 drafts to appear {+restconf}/operations= resource.
> > >>>
> > >>> Note: I put "MAY" as RESTCONF may someday = have a more native way to do
> > this.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Well, "ietf-netconf" does not really support N= MDA well and this is why
> > >> we have "ietf-netconf-nmda". Does not make muc= h sense to point to
> > >> "ietf-netconf" in an NMDA document.
> > >
> > > But we'd still need lock, unlock, commit, commit-confirm= ed, etc.,
> > > right?
> >
> > These would make RESTCONF server stateful, thus violating REST pr= inciples.
> > My
> > draft
> >
> > https://datatr= acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions/
> >
> > tries to achieve similar effects in a RESTful way.
> >
>
>
> I like the idea of "private candidate" datastores you call &= quot;staging".
> I would keep the term candidate.

The problem with this is that <candidate> in NETCONF has a looser sem= antics (it
can also be shared).

>
> This idea was discussed during RESTCONF draft development, but
> as the client creating a "transaction" resource. I think you= r draft is on
> the right track, and datastores are protocol-independent so NETCONF > can use the same datastores with RPC operations.

Yes, it can certainly be improved. I already have some pending updates, but= I
wanted to keep it simple for start.

>
> You ignore the problem of concurrent edits, which is why this idea was= not
> pursued
> at the time. What happens when the altered data overlaps across privat= e
> candidates?

I don't ignore it, the text says that the user's staging datastore = has to be
atomically merged into <intended>, I just didn't want to specify = the procedure.
In any case, the result has to be a valid <intended>. But I am open t= o a
discussion.


Leaving it a= s an implementation detail is the IETF's way of ignoring problems.
=C2=A0

> What are the procedures equivalent to git pull, push, merge?
> How are collisions handled? What exactly is a collision?
> Not trivial standards issues to solve.

I think it can be left open, I even suspect there is no universal solution<= br> suitable for all use cases. Our implementation (JetConf) does the following= :

- each user's edit operation is applied to the staging datastore and al= so
recorded in a journal

- at commit, if <intended> hasn't been changed in the mean time, = then the
staging datastore simply becomes <intended>

- otherwise, the edit operations from the journal are applied sequentially = on
the actual contents of <intended>.



This is "last one = wins".
You will find this sort of works for create and merge= but no so much for replace and delete.


--00000000000027099c0570ce6447-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 08:20:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F470130DF9 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:20:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cx_Yglt1NxlT for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com (mail-lj1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C06E8128CF3 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id q127-v6so21676509ljq.11 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:20:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ho+4EK5591TWYXGviC00smoQg5byivI4QpEbWh6qRbs=; b=lwu1gWvmN35ryBpoMQ7aCMJa0S1/etvQ3UXe+k7DYGr+sHzkD7qinxmumKQ15wM/sB aMuMlyQT7gOsdg36P6tMDAIwVdWZMtjJ9obiqw8Yjz41mRAWBU7uasQJb1akpkrT73Vm 8AMyzF4EnMAYn9/y/cc/P/7DRUR1KiW1AC4yhb+70nctnu3I3y5craB5cytwK2muXhyS p73j9r2PkPTw122T/RScT3TMFVVqR68q2nsLoenLTXP66Xl9vwAvAwht4P67Wr2SUuCx nzSgb2avS4M2HJFY7drA7LSAXTcx7upkxCv1J8bCttnQZq5GU/pZZoffPr5XEuSkyrB9 CrjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ho+4EK5591TWYXGviC00smoQg5byivI4QpEbWh6qRbs=; b=arBtDRtfIdMInM+oXb0VCQrVvoITTfN5QKPImezmvSf9hTW0UOETFNwOb8mbLNyu6F mmO5A2fJ8VBIeUAN3++JyRL6IWifoQkPMrI0wVIHpj8Ok3ym0cBPy5BBF2hIa/yNlC68 3f/1wL9oFfzOi7cnpSOpbeL/rMRz24qu78upPNJdsp2DRco7vwnkTv6IcflzwR0c2jDf 2viftlqQf9G7VYi5FFZJ9Tzs1RiVnrPNxB8qptXa86ue35Gk1e8YDqDUma9YuH0Twsgp xSMaCeLLs6Tpu+RAfzDQp05AW6YLMDr0457yM0HeKMwrXob6YZHOpkf2XVPp9iNtg9/Q Sc4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGJ7C06s0BI/07yZeyym/HmCgEunnFbVN82bOFiDVtIL1maZ7E1 ox2CzWHv3tUvzd9kDyvAnpgd+i1l3KdMEmPQHwZkgA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfyxtW3TfeV95Amjegr7EBM8J7jX+Tv1/yB9L4Dg67cczVL0rzViTcMRvB7epqFUyAA9pnDodkYLOJWrQV5Bw0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:1d50:: with SMTP id d77-v6mr903653ljd.104.1531408802911; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:20:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:20:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:20:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Balazs Lengyel Cc: Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b436c10570cee5f9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:20:08 -0000 --000000000000b436c10570cee5f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Maybe this WG needs to figure out how to deliver core functionality and then add to it over time. For example, none of the notification drafts are critical or even important for getting YANG Push out the door. We just needed (for core functionality) to start notification delivery on a session, and RFC 5277 already does that. All the new features are refinements and add-ons. YANG Push could have been designed so it does not depend so heavily on the subscription drafts. Now other non-standard solutions are getting deployed instead of YANG Push. There is no real business case to replace all the proprietary work, especially if YANG Push drags on into 2019. Andy On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 5:53 AM, Balazs Lengyel wrote: > Hello, > We would need Yang-Push yesterday. We really-really need a basic solution > (dynamic-subscription with Netconf transport) now. IMHO we do have an > agreement on this basic part of the function. > > This has been dragging along for a long time and we see a chance of other > people choosing a completely different solution unless we manage to agree > on the standard soon. I got comments from the ONAP community: YangPush > could be used, it looks nice, but when will it be ready? > > I see the value of configured subscriptions, of multiple transports, etc. > but if they keep the basic solution from being available I am screwed. I > appreciate the good work of many people on this topic, but I would propose > that we consider cutting out any feature from a "first release" of YP > unless we manage to get it accepted by the end of August in WGLC. > regards Balazs > > P.S. Big bang versus agile? > > -- > Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. > Senior Specialist > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --000000000000b436c10570cee5f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Maybe this WG needs to figure out h= ow to deliver core functionality and then
add to it over time.

For example, none of the notification drafts are cri= tical or even important for
getting YANG Push out the door.=C2=A0= We just needed (for core functionality)
to start notification de= livery on a session, and RFC 5277 already does that.
All the new = features are refinements and add-ons.

YANG Push co= uld have been designed so it does not depend so heavily
on the su= bscription drafts. Now other non-standard solutions are getting
d= eployed instead of YANG Push.=C2=A0 There is no real business case to
=
replace all the proprietary work, especially if YANG Push drags on int= o 2019.


Andy


On Tue, Jul 1= 0, 2018 at 5:53 AM, Balazs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com<= /a>> wrote:
Hello,
We would need Yang-Push yesterday. We really-really need a basic solution (= dynamic-subscription with Netconf transport) now. IMHO we do have an agreem= ent on this basic part of the function.

This has been dragging along for a long time and we see a chance of other p= eople choosing a completely different solution unless we manage to agree on= the standard soon. I got comments from the ONAP community: YangPush could = be used, it looks nice, but when will it be ready?

I see the value of configured subscriptions, of multiple transports, etc. b= ut if they keep the basic solution from being available I am screwed. I app= reciate the good work of many people on this topic, but I would propose tha= t we consider cutting out any feature from a "first release" of= =C2=A0 YP unless we manage to get it accepted by the end of August in WGLC.=
regards Balazs

P.S. Big bang versus agile?<= br>
--
Balazs Lengyel=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ema= il: Balazs= .Lengyel@ericsson.com

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

--000000000000b436c10570cee5f9-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 08:35:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD5FC130E93 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:35:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mmtYHaMYzlSr for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2394D130E9A for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id w6CFZXu3008982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:35:34 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (134.102.43.163) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:35:28 +0200 To: Andy Bierman , Balazs Lengyel CC: Netconf References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:29:39 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.43.163] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:35:42 -0000 Hi all, having just read Andy's reply, I have to agree with this sentiment, I think. To me, it seems there has been a surprising amount of cycles with this set of drafts. Of course, there are always reasons for this, but I have to acknowledge that in this case the current process could turn out to be a disabler wrt adoption. Viele Grüße, Henk On 07/12/2018 05:20 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > Now other non-standard solutions are getting > deployed instead of YANG Push.  There is no real business case to > replace all the proprietary work, especially if YANG Push drags on into > 2019. > From nobody Thu Jul 12 08:42:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1DD6130F02 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:42:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4gF2p-xEYYSX for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.eurecom.fr (smtp2.eurecom.fr [193.55.113.211]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51CDB130E60 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:42:07 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,343,1526335200"; d="scan'208";a="9608975" Received: from thorgal.eurecom.fr ([10.3.2.220]) by drago2i.eurecom.fr with ESMTP; 12 Jul 2018 17:42:05 +0200 Received: (from apache@localhost) by thorgal.eurecom.fr (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4/Submit) id w6CFg5hE016241; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:42:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: thorgal.eurecom.fr: apache set sender to otilibil@eurecom.fr using -f Received: from reverse.completel.net (reverse.completel.net [92.103.89.82]) by webmail.eurecom.fr (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:42:05 +0200 Message-ID: <20180712174205.dzpjndq9gkwc8080@webmail.eurecom.fr> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:42:05 +0200 From: Ariel Otilibili Anieli To: Kent Watsen , "Jeffrey Ladouceur (jladouce)" Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" References: <17CA1DAB-73FF-498D-8EA6-5BD090B9F01E@juniper.net> <72E30569-5546-4165-B6EA-A424FB0B3C28@cisco.com> <9DA54FC9-E51F-4CF4-95CD-87BE581CA458@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <9DA54FC9-E51F-4CF4-95CD-87BE581CA458@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.4) X-Originating-IP: 92.103.89.82 X-Remote-Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/67.0.3396.87 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] closure on dynamic model changes X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:42:11 -0000 Hi Jeff, hi Kent, Below some comments. Regards, Ariel Quoting Kent Watsen : > Hi Jeff, > > I'm not aware of such an error-app-tag. I'm doubtful any such =20 > support to exists as the official stance is that YANG modules are =20 > forever backwards compatible (sans deviations). If errors occur in the case you described, Kent, I would expect the =20 base NETCONF protocol to raise them. > > Kent > > > On 7/11/18, 5:58 PM, "Jeffrey Ladouceur (jladouce)" =20 > > wrote: > > Hi Kent, > > The client can receive notification and can poll the checksum to =20 > determine if the module set has changed. The name of that checksum is 'module-set-id' =20 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7895#section-2.1.1). For example, this =20 request, Gives back, 326a180da22645fc532760d9d068e187 > > I?m also trying to determine if there was acceptance with regards to =20 > returning an error app tag of ?capabilities-changed? when a client =20 > sends an RPC which could potentially no longer work as expected. > > Regards, > Jeff > > > > From: Kent Watsen > Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 at 5:48 PM > To: Jeffrey Ladouceur , "netconf@ietf.org" =20 > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] closure on dynamic model changes > > Hi Jeff, > > Both RFC 7895 and rfc7895bis (almost RFC 8407) define a checksum a =20 > client can poll, as well as a notification a client can receive, to =20 > determine when a server's module set has changed. > > Kent > > > On 7/11/18, 5:34 PM, "Netconf on behalf of Jeffrey Ladouceur =20 > (jladouce)" =20 > on behalf =20 > of =20 > jladouce=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> =20 > wrote: > > Hello netconf experts, > > I?m trying to determine if there was closure on the topic of dynamic =20 > model changes and the impact on any connected netconf clients. > > The last message appears to be 8 years ago: > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg05982.html > > Has there been any standards agreement since the above post or any =20 > other discussions ? > > Kindest regards, > Jeff > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- This message was sent using EURECOM Webmail: http://webmail.eurecom.fr From nobody Thu Jul 12 09:09:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26E6130DFD for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:09:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sQASalFv5-Sh for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x230.google.com (mail-lf0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D28EE130DE5 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x230.google.com with SMTP id j8-v6so24714079lfb.4 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:09:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/Vxw8PWwThe3NR20cb3eMy8H3legFnhbfK4T2ujWAhg=; b=HwGi6P05u2NpwQ/pJgU1CzJD6Dr14bvYy/Cy2i8rpiq7wyREsGVm/CyBaqvovxG3B3 yl/ufEUmMPIOQI71FsOWwgKwLDVIUx2soKZlz0SLGLJixvE1o+upkwoSIxehzYP1fwFJ MlNxGqEHBVBPoRm5a1i2fVNbI4YK9jIdJvHAW5wYMZLt8wZm0YQBeUrccNH3+/RRlUIH cdNZ1xXXB6LvwEo0yl1oCkKQ+jqrvFIIvym3x28OecTOjwDF+/lFrZ5hYfCT656acFcd fOaz2VcFcsRFHCmiXKX+tUTquRv+1EDiE2QsdX1m4UCaG5j46BF2bKs2MNBYWxTVwneu GE8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/Vxw8PWwThe3NR20cb3eMy8H3legFnhbfK4T2ujWAhg=; b=D3ntZcEhMxz/f+chZc8e76xe2/bc67dka26KTZBWFSJZc3mczgSKrR8XEbB2eXwEvX uKHjYNIobS8f5xrML9NnAVa/ea6kr+YeUo0AMWq7CBeNxoXRvZBsix6sTg3E+05EYh0D Ubxxt3YwOXeTad0TKWNik9y/okeNYbiNtFmDuDN9QfgTrASR/DaUSq1owkvA8fk4ZmIB pHWw9UtjNn3TvbENobXd6P3WKV6Bv1Cl4g1x5arxEAbnjGH1/Q9pWT+E2xzTbhAXuHsh DXSsXWIFUWZBCFSa5c3yLFnp8SpxpaadA2UL6IvCJMdSmZqWzQF0ls0bsK9uAjd3yviM EjPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGA4bONF62gRi/2DZeccj4Y4HcOS32B3N+G28YZb76truA9hXew Th93/JvHEm1EAnBrbW12ot1iFfZIqkEqZys0v1bv3A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpctEVinKB1T480hFPhbWs1krCVJO39XnaTftXLI6JvSELv6y2DUFQKBlfv3nO8/m7ap2193GSAnGMKwT06Xg74= X-Received: by 2002:a19:518a:: with SMTP id g10-v6mr2270712lfl.78.1531411739035; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:08:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:08:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:08:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: Henk Birkholz Cc: Balazs Lengyel , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b60e470570cf94b6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:09:04 -0000 --000000000000b60e470570cf94b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 8:29 AM, Henk Birkholz < henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote: > Hi all, > > having just read Andy's reply, I have to agree with this sentiment, I > think. > > To me, it seems there has been a surprising amount of cycles with this se= t > of drafts. Of course, there are always reasons for this, but I have to > acknowledge that in this case the current process could turn out to be a > disabler wrt adoption. > > IMO the YANG Push design should have been a stand-alone configuration subtree like /yang-push. All that is really required is some config that says "send the specified notifications according to these parameters." How notifications get delivered has never been important to the specification of what data to push. > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > Henk > Andy > > On 07/12/2018 05:20 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > >> Now other non-standard solutions are getting >> deployed instead of YANG Push. There is no real business case to >> replace all the proprietary work, especially if YANG Push drags on into >> 2019. >> >> --000000000000b60e470570cf94b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 8:29 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.bir= kholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
Hi all,

having just read Andy's reply, I have to agree with this sentiment, I t= hink.

To me, it seems there has been a surprising amount of cycles with this set = of drafts. Of course, there are always reasons for this, but I have to ackn= owledge that in this case the current process could turn out to be a disabl= er wrt adoption.


IMO the YANG Push design should have b= een a stand-alone configuration subtree
like /yang-push.=C2=A0 Al= l that is really required is some config that says "send the
specified notifications according to these parameters." =C2=A0How not= ifications
get delivered has never been important to the specific= ation of what data to push.

=C2=A0
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk


Andy
=C2= =A0

On 07/12/2018 05:20 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
Now other non-standard solutions are getting
deployed instead of YANG Push.=C2=A0 There is no real business case to
replace all the proprietary work, especially if YANG Push drags on into 201= 9.


--000000000000b60e470570cf94b6-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 10:22:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255C9130F50 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:22:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H9DeIaa2SQ01 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (trail.lhotka.name [77.48.224.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C17130F5F for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix, from userid 109) id 3E83E1820CC0; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 19:28:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [172.29.2.111]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BFA4B1820053; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 19:28:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Robert Wilton , "netconf\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 19:22:02 +0200 Message-ID: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:22:12 -0000 Hi Rob, thanks for your comments, please see inline. Robert Wilton writes: > Hi Lada, > > I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments below. > > So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not RESTCONF=20 > needs this functionality or not.=C2=A0 I've heard some operators state th= at=20 > they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and hence= =20 > don't have the need for a server side staging area.=C2=A0 Perhaps a good= =20 > question to ask in Montreal? I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I think with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTCONF extended according to my draft. > > The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical solution,= =20 > and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) > > 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging areas=20 > (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared lockable=20 > candidate datastore.=C2=A0 This follows my belief that loosely coupled=20 > concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. with=20 > shared locking). > > 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all.=C2= =A0=20 > Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying=20 > .=C2=A0 I.e. your staging datastores should update on = a=20 > commit operation, just like a commit of updates .=C2= =A0=20 > is always just updated as a side effect of a write to=20 > , and as such is a tangential consideration. The main reason for using is that the target datastore into which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and under NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have and being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this simplification. > > 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think=20 > that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients=20 > interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as per=20 > draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1.=C2=A0 The new staging=20 > datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit from= =20 > ietf-datastores:datastore identity.=C2=A0 I think that this probably also= =20 > more closely aligns to restful principals. Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore really is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the client could also interact with {+restconf}/data. > > 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the=20 > proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to =20 > when they are committed.=C2=A0 I think that clients may also want to see = the=20 > combined configuration of the current contents of with the=20 > delta held in applied.=C2=A0 This could be exposed either as (i= ) a=20 > new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-only=20 > datastore.=C2=A0 A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't= =20 > support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would be=20 > to one of the other two latter options. Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a commit? This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation it is pretty trivial. > > 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then=20 > should they also be added to NETCONF?=C2=A0 If they are added to both the= n I=20 > think that they should be added in the same way, as much as possible,=20 > perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive=20 > text?=C2=A0 In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC= =20 > that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the=20 > individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing similar=20 > or equivalent text in two places. But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? One possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared candidates have known problems. Thanks, Lada > > But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly=20 > warrants some WG discussion. > > Thanks, > Rob > --=20 Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Thu Jul 12 10:32:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F59130E42 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:32:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2WH4g9T2riec for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (trail.lhotka.name [77.48.224.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9027E130E3D for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix, from userid 109) id E3AC31820CC2; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 19:29:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [172.29.2.111]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0AE3F1820053; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 19:29:42 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Mahesh Jethanandani , Robert Wilton Cc: "netconf\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <755CE201-4550-487A-B0E9-6F0E6C51F2AE@gmail.com> References: <755CE201-4550-487A-B0E9-6F0E6C51F2AE@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 19:23:01 +0200 Message-ID: <87pnzsfjwq.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:32:25 -0000 Mahesh Jethanandani writes: > WG, > > This draft now is on the agenda for the meeting on Monday, afternoon session #I from 13:30-15:30. > > Lada, you do have your 15 min. Thanks a lot, Lada > > Mahesh & Kent. > >> On Jul 11, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: >> >> Hi Lada, >> >> I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments below. >> >> So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not RESTCONF needs this functionality or not. I've heard some operators state that they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and hence don't have the need for a server side staging area. Perhaps a good question to ask in Montreal? >> >> The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical solution, and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) >> >> 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging areas (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared lockable candidate datastore. This follows my belief that loosely coupled concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. with shared locking). >> >> 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all. Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying . I.e. your staging datastores should update on a commit operation, just like a commit of updates . is always just updated as a side effect of a write to , and as such is a tangential consideration. >> >> 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as per draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1. The new staging datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit from ietf-datastores:datastore identity. I think that this probably also more closely aligns to restful principals. >> >> 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to when they are committed. I think that clients may also want to see the combined configuration of the current contents of with the delta held in applied. This could be exposed either as (i) a new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-only datastore. A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would be to one of the other two latter options. >> >> 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then should they also be added to NETCONF? If they are added to both then I think that they should be added in the same way, as much as possible, perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive text? In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing similar or equivalent text in two places. >> >> But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly warrants some WG discussion. >> >> Thanks, >> Rob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Netconf mailing list >> Netconf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com > -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Thu Jul 12 11:48:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84407131160 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 11:48:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:38:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:38:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:38:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: Henk Birkholz , Robert Wilton , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000013843a0570d2828c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 19:38:36 -0000 --00000000000013843a0570d2828c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:48 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions (not > > necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting WGLC or > > modularity) > > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. > > hums now are: > > 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) > b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > > a > 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > a. SN first, then YP (published sequentially) > b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) > > b Since "what to push" is so tightly coupled to "how to push", clearly YP has to wait for SN I have not heard any customer-types ask for a different way to do , just requests for YP, so there is no urgency for SN alone > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. > > Thanks, > Kent // chair > > > > > Andy --00000000000013843a0570d2828c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:48 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

> I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions (no= t
> necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting WGLC o= r
> modularity)

Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push.

hums now are:

=C2=A01. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel)



a

<= div>=C2=A0
=C2=A02. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a. SN first, then YP=C2=A0 (published sequentially)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0b. SN and YP together (published in parallel)




<= div>Since "what to push" is so tightly coupled to "how to pu= sh", clearly YP has to wait for SN



Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso.

Thanks,
Kent // chair





Andy

--00000000000013843a0570d2828c-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 13:29:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE7D130F74 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 13:28:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rtFMYlfLdTM3 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 13:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66F1E130F72 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 13:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 7A2B043D8F8E6; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 21:28:42 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 21:28:44 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.30]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.22]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 13:28:41 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Kent Watsen , Henk Birkholz , Andy Bierman , Robert Wilton CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUGE0Hc6bodT3Jb0Ka8PpEGefQ7aSKsHGAgAAIToCAAVUBgIAAWLiA//+cpFA= Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 20:28:40 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB2F27E@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.209.217.55] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 20:29:00 -0000 On 2): not sure I understand that particular hum; I don't see what would be= gained by separating them. YP builds on SN but it is ready. If the WG = decides to refactor SN to move configured subscriptions out, sure, YP needs= to be updated to make sure this is reflected, but this should be straightf= orward. If separating YP and SN would accelerate them (or at least one of = them), sure, but I am not clear why this would be the case. =20 To the question on putting YP out without SN: this is a well-intended sugge= stion even if it seems a bit ironic given SN was originally created by taki= ng it out as a generalizable piece from YP that would be useful for notific= ations other than push updates per decision of the WG. Changing YP now to = become a self-contained piece would mean reverting on this; I am not convin= ced it is a good idea to do so this late in the game and would rather have = us see this through as we had planned. =20 --- Alex > -----Original Message----- > From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kent Watsen > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 11:48 AM > To: Henk Birkholz ; Andy Bierman > ; Robert Wilton > > Cc: Netconf > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now >=20 >=20 > > I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions > > (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting > > WGLC or > > modularity) >=20 > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. >=20 > hums now are: >=20 > 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) > b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) >=20 > 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > a. SN first, then YP (published sequentially) > b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) >=20 > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. >=20 > Thanks, > Kent // chair >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf From nobody Thu Jul 12 14:37:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3CA513119E for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:37:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) 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-1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mFtu1mdSJz5B for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1AD1277BB for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8B14223257F1; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 23:42:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 23:42:52 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Ladislav Lhotka Cc: Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180712214252.ukoe43tzxxf75bfz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Ladislav Lhotka , Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 21:42:59 -0000 On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 07:22:02PM +0200, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all. > > Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying > > . I.e. your staging datastores should update on a > > commit operation, just like a commit of updates . > > is always just updated as a side effect of a write to > > , and as such is a tangential consideration. > > The main reason for using is that the target datastore into > which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all > times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and under > NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have and > being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this simplification. I think NMDA says that and in general are _not_ the same but that for _some_ implementations they may be de factor the same or indistinguishable. If your proposal assumes equals , then your proposal is only applicable to _some_ implementations. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Jul 12 16:26:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791FC131204 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:26:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6ySG0fSDBppa for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37DF113112C for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 826B327E2F7A6; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:26:38 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:26:40 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.30]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.22]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:26:38 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Kent Watsen , Henk Birkholz , Andy Bierman , Robert Wilton CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUGE0Hc6bodT3Jb0Ka8PpEGefQ7aSKsHGAgAAIToCAAVUBgIAAWLiA//+cpFCAAJK1gP//pUjA Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 23:26:47 -0000 SGkgS2VudCwNCg0KZ29vZCAtIHNvIHdlIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgd2UgYXJlIHRvbyBmYXIgZG93biB0 aGUgcm9hZCB0byBjaGFuZ2UgdGhpbmdzIGFuZCByZXZlcnQgYmFjayB0byB3aGVyZSB3ZSBzdGFy dGVkIGEgZmV3IHllYXJzIGFnby4gIEkgdGhvdWdodCB0aGF0IHRoZXJlZm9yZSB3ZSBjYW4ganVz dCBjbG9zZSBvbiB0aGVzZSB0aGluZ3Mgd2l0aG91dCBvcGVuaW5nIGV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcgdXAgYWdh aW4uICBUaGlzIGlzIHdoeSBJIHdhcyBpcnJpdGF0ZWQgYXQgY2FsbGluZyBmb3IgYSBodW0uICBJ TUhPIHdlIHNob3VsZCBwYXNzIHRoZSB3aG9sZSBwYWNrYWdlLCBpbmNsdWRpbmcgWVAgYW5kIFNO LCBhbmQgaW5jbHVkaW5nIGNvbmZpZ3VyZWQgYW5kIGR5bmFtaWMgKGFub3RoZXIgZGVjaXNpb24g d2UgaGFkIG1hZGUgYSBsb25nIHRpbWUgYWdvKS4gIEkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCBCYWxhenMnIHNlbnRp bWVudCB0aGF0IHdlIG5lZWRlZCB0aGlzIHllc3RlcmRheS4gIFdlIHNob3VsZCBiZSBsb29raW5n 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<644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB2F32C@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB2F27E@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5792CF70-9842-41C0-A286-64C4B4B27455@juniper.net> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB2F32C@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:57:26 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Clemm Cc: Kent Watsen , Henk Birkholz , Robert Wilton , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000021d4d40570d620b1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 23:57:35 -0000 --00000000000021d4d40570d620b1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:26 PM, Alexander Clemm wrote: > Hi Kent, > > good - so we agree that we are too far down the road to change things and > revert back to where we started a few years ago. I thought that therefore > we can just close on these things without opening everything up again. > This is why I was irritated at calling for a hum. IMHO we should pass the > whole package, including YP and SN, and including configured and dynamic > (another decision we had made a long time ago). I agree with Balazs' > sentiment that we needed this yesterday. We should be looking for ways to > bring this to swift conclusion (and refactoring documents and rearranging > major concepts all take their time) - much more important than trying to > perfect it at this point in time IMHO. > > What if SN did not wait for client-server? What would that look like? Perhaps: choice receiver-address { case standalone-tcp { leaf address {} leaf port {} } } What if the address/port leafs were part of a choice, so different cases can be augmented from new modules or proprietary modules? But SN depends on ietf-network-instance which is not done, which depends on schema-mount which is not done... > --- Alex > > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kent Watsen [mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net] > > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:38 PM > > To: Alexander Clemm ; Henk Birkholz > > ; Andy Bierman ; > > Robert Wilton > > Cc: Netconf > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > Addressing your second point first, as you say, we're too far down the > road to > > consider YP w/o SN. I think Andy was just reflecting how things > could've been > > different if we turned back time. > > > > Regarding your first point, I agree that the delta may not be much, but > YP is also > > a large document (56 pages) and, if only to help better focus the WG, > the chairs > > will probably run the LCs on these two drafts sequentially anyway. Just > speaking > > for myself, I haven't reviewed YP seriously yet, as I've been waiting > for the dust > > to settle on the SN layer first. In theory, my review should go easy, > since YP > > builds on top of SN (the harder to define layer) and also because YP has > been > > improved by others already, but that's all part of the unknown behind > hum #2. > > Makes sense? > > > > Kent > > > > > > ===== original message ===== > > > > On 2): not sure I understand that particular hum; I don't see what would > be > > gained by separating them. YP builds on SN but it is ready. If the > WG decides > > to refactor SN to move configured subscriptions out, sure, YP needs to be > > updated to make sure this is reflected, but this should be > straightforward. If > > separating YP and SN would accelerate them (or at least one of them), > sure, but > > I am not clear why this would be the case. > > > > To the question on putting YP out without SN: this is a well-intended > suggestion > > even if it seems a bit ironic given SN was originally created by taking > it out as a > > generalizable piece from YP that would be useful for notifications other > than > > push updates per decision of the WG. Changing YP now to become a self- > > contained piece would mean reverting on this; I am not convinced it is a > good > > idea to do so this late in the game and would rather have us see this > through as > > we had planned. > > > > --- Alex > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kent > > > Watsen > > > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 11:48 AM > > > To: Henk Birkholz ; Andy Bierman > > > ; Robert Wilton > > > > > > Cc: Netconf > > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > > > > > > > > > I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions > > > > (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting > > > > WGLC or > > > > modularity) > > > > > > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. > > > > > > hums now are: > > > > > > 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > > > a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) > > > b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > > > > > > 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > > > a. SN first, then YP (published sequentially) > > > b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) > > > > > > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kent // chair > > > > > > > --00000000000021d4d40570d620b1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:26 PM, Alexander Clemm <= alexander.c= lemm@huawei.com> wrote:
Hi = Kent,

good - so we agree that we are too far down the road to change things and r= evert back to where we started a few years ago.=C2=A0 I thought that theref= ore we can just close on these things without opening everything up again.= =C2=A0 This is why I was irritated at calling for a hum.=C2=A0 IMHO we shou= ld pass the whole package, including YP and SN, and including configured an= d dynamic (another decision we had made a long time ago).=C2=A0 I agree wit= h Balazs' sentiment that we needed this yesterday.=C2=A0 We should be l= ooking for ways to bring this to swift conclusion (and refactoring document= s and rearranging major concepts all take their time) - much more important= than trying to perfect it at this point in time IMHO.=C2=A0



What if SN did not wait= for client-server?
What would that look like?

Perhaps:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 choice receiv= er-address {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 case standalone-tcp {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf address {}
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf port {}
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }

What if the address/port leafs were part of a choice, so different cases=
can be augmented from new modules or proprietary modules?
<= div>
But SN depends on ietf-network-instance which is not don= e,
which depends on schema-mount which is not done...
<= br>
=C2=A0
--- Alex


Andy
=C2=A0
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kent Watsen [mailto:kwats= en@juniper.net]
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:38 PM
> To: Alexander Clemm <= alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Henk Birkholz
> <henk.birkholz@s= it.fraunhofer.de>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>;
> Robert Wilton <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> Cc: Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now
>
> Hi Alex,
>
> Addressing your second point first, as you say, we're too far down= the road to
> consider YP w/o SN.=C2=A0 I think Andy was just reflecting how things = could've been
> different if we turned back time.
>
> Regarding your first point, I agree that the delta may not be much, bu= t YP is also
> a large document (56 pages) and, if only to help better focus the WG, = the chairs
> will probably run the LCs on these two drafts sequentially anyway.=C2= =A0 Just speaking
> for myself, I haven't reviewed YP seriously yet, as I've been = waiting for the dust
> to settle on the SN layer first.=C2=A0 In theory, my review should go = easy, since YP
> builds on top of SN (the harder to define layer) and also because YP h= as been
> improved by others already, but that's all part of the unknown beh= ind hum #2.
> Makes sense?
>
> Kent
>
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D original message =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> On 2): not sure I understand that particular hum; I don't see what= would be
> gained by separating them.=C2=A0 YP builds on SN but it is ready.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 If the WG decides
> to refactor SN to move configured subscriptions out, sure, YP needs to= be
> updated to make sure this is reflected, but this should be straightfor= ward.=C2=A0 If
> separating YP and SN would accelerate them (or at least one of them), = sure, but
> I am not clear why this would be the case.
>
> To the question on putting YP out without SN: this is a well-intended = suggestion
> even if it seems a bit ironic given SN was originally created by takin= g it out as a
> generalizable piece from YP that would be useful for notifications oth= er than
> push updates per decision of the WG.=C2=A0 Changing YP now to become a= self-
> contained piece would mean reverting on this; I am not convinced it is= a good
> idea to do so this late in the game and would rather have us see this = through as
> we had planned.
>
> --- Alex
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kent
> > Watsen
> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 11:48 AM
> > To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Andy Bierman
> > <andy@yumaworks.com&= gt;; Robert Wilton
> > <rwilton=3D40cis= co.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> > Cc: Netconf <netconf@ietf.= org>
> > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now
> >
> >
> > > I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscri= ptions
> > > (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of ex= pediting
> > > WGLC or
> > > modularity)
> >
> > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push= .
> >
> > hums now are:
> >
> >=C2=A0 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequent= ially)
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 b. dynamic and configure together (published in para= llel)
> >
> >=C2=A0 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a. SN first, then YP=C2=A0 (published sequentially)<= br> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 b. SN and YP together (published in parallel)
> >
> > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your pre= so.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kent // chair
> >
>


--00000000000021d4d40570d620b1-- From nobody Fri Jul 13 01:50:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D62130E0E for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 01:50:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1TqyICkSyec0 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 01:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA851130E9A for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 01:50:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=996; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531471850; x=1532681450; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=G0HqWl33ytKNCNJwpZGoR7qSFODaKf+V4HjM+KzaSOc=; b=m3icbUTuofs9hzUF8tNTO3j90Oj33QEioCBUHFmuuurNRjfTc0U2f7GV rN0wYuKtfzkmRRyCnmteifCiYPfHffFqaVecXyVJ+u3y9Lw/1jU69JPYK jXTKYSNnopVYDpXhHA/ouXHVMYGa4yhb/H1u1L6yCGWBG70nCF3RX/Q1w A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B0AQDTZkhb/xbLJq1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYMfgXoShCOIY406CCSXLwuEbAKCbjgUAQIBAQIBAQJtKIU?= =?us-ascii?q?3AQUjFVELDgoCAiYCAlcGAQwIAQGDHIIAqTaBLoRbhWOBC4lOP4ERJwyCXod?= =?us-ascii?q?8glUCjROMRgmPIQaBQ4QPgkeFSIw/hVWBWCEmgSwzGggbFYMlgzUBCY0UPox?= =?us-ascii?q?EAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,347,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="5086917" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 13 Jul 2018 08:50:48 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6D8oknD018919; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:50:47 GMT To: Kent Watsen , Henk Birkholz , Andy Bierman , Netconf References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:50:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:50:53 -0000 Hi, It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could explicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the choices below they think would lead to the work completing most quickly. Thanks, Rob On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote: >> I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions (not >> necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting WGLC or >> modularity) > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. > > hums now are: > > 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) > b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > > 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > a. SN first, then YP (published sequentially) > b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) > > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. > > Thanks, > Kent // chair > > > > From nobody Fri Jul 13 02:00:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECDD4130DF0 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 02:00:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KQayKUHX35lC for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 02:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D85BF1277CC for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 02:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id w6D90NCh010165 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:00:24 +0200 Received: from [192.168.43.25] (80.187.113.26) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:00:18 +0200 To: Robert Wilton , Kent Watsen , Andy Bierman , Netconf References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 10:54:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [80.187.113.26] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:00:36 -0000 Hi all, I would also like to see the implications and consequences of a specific hum option to be highlighted very clearly and explicitly. Every option that is available to hum on should highlight an expected amount of delay of WGLC created by the decision. This thread's subject is "YangPush now" and that is exactly the point. Remodeling takes time. Wrt to number of changes, I would like to encourage the minimal viable solution at this point of time (yes, I a can barely believe it myself... but it is actually me, who is writing this statement... maybe to some this is an indicator). Viele Grüße, Henk On 07/13/2018 10:50 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: > Hi, > > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could > explicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the > choices below they think would lead to the work completing most quickly. > > Thanks, > Rob > > > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote: >>> I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions (not >>> necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting WGLC or >>> modularity) >> Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. >> >> hums now are: >> >>   1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions >>     a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) >>     b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) >> >>   2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push >>     a. SN first, then YP  (published sequentially) >>     b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) >> >> Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. >> >> Thanks, >> Kent // chair >> >> >> >> > From nobody Fri Jul 13 03:02:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B943130EA8 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 03:02:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DbAD-5SfiR4H for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 03:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 383FD12F1A2 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 03:02:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8019; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531476127; x=1532685727; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=R2ktzT1YauoT06Uqel3xTtgZlZwPXG7u2JADphFQUhA=; b=YLani9TYfx7g4CUlgewVRSrOURPx2W6Ol5qNKOzoYAjlnvEWHKZKe/Qp kIzXORM/90dQ9XU3TK7t+a9yWMLB/U1OotZB/tCQzGkTI9Yv7dsZUNUbz 8lsxJvc6nyYg6IQQu/3/8ikqQgEomC+0lBXfOxKAR5f0XTZ3AXGF3AAFw Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B0AQAWeEhb/xbLJq1TAQgZAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBBwEBAQEBhRkSKIN7iGONOix1ljoLhGwCgm43FQECAQECAQECbSi?= =?us-ascii?q?FNgEBAQMBIw8BBTwVCxgCAiYCAlcGAQwGAgEBF4MFgXgIqUaBLoRbhWOBC4l?= =?us-ascii?q?OP4ERJ4I1NYRRBQ+DF4JVAplZCY8hBoFDhA+CRyWFI4d9hEKFVYFXIoFSMxo?= =?us-ascii?q?IGxWDJJBUPjCJTiuCGwEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,347,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="5146397" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 13 Jul 2018 10:02:05 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6DA2599028980; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 10:02:05 GMT To: Ladislav Lhotka , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:02:04 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 10:02:10 -0000 Hi Lada, On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > Hi Rob, > > thanks for your comments, please see inline. > > Robert Wilton writes: > >> Hi Lada, >> >> I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments below. >> >> So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not RESTCONF >> needs this functionality or not.  I've heard some operators state that >> they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and hence >> don't have the need for a server side staging area.  Perhaps a good >> question to ask in Montreal? > I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are > applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the > server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I think > with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client > functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain > browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTCONF > extended according to my draft. No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a single client commit. I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the interaction, although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on the client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the expected usages of private candidate datastores. > >> The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical solution, >> and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) >> >> 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging areas >> (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared lockable >> candidate datastore.  This follows my belief that loosely coupled >> concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. with >> shared locking). >> >> 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all. >> Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying >> .  I.e. your staging datastores should update on a >> commit operation, just like a commit of updates . >> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to >> , and as such is a tangential consideration. > The main reason for using is that the target datastore into > which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all > times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and under > NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have and > being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this simplification. has the configuration supplied by the user before any template expansion, or inactive config removal. is the same configuration data, but after template expansion, inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations that the server might do. If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations", then is trivially the same as . Whenever is due to be changed, is also updated at the same time, and validated. Hence is always valid, and by implication, so is , since you cannot make a change to without also updating, and validating at the exact same time.  I.e. they succeed or fail together. I think that your datastore design works much better with NMDA if you update instead of . >> 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think >> that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients >> interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as per >> draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1.  The new staging >> datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit from >> ietf-datastores:datastore identity.  I think that this probably also >> more closely aligns to restful principals. > Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore really > is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in > particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging > datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the > client could also interact with {+restconf}/data. The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired* configuration with the *actual* operational state.  This combination cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady state. I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I think that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via explicit datastores. E.g. (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the configuration, then it just writes to . (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it does it via and a commit to .  From a system perspective this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writes to and then commits configuration to . (4) If can be locked, then attempts by other clients to commit to when it is locked must fail. > >> 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the >> proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to >> when they are committed.  I think that clients may also want to see the >> combined configuration of the current contents of with the >> delta held in applied.  This could be exposed either as (i) a >> new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-only >> datastore.  A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't >> support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would be >> to one of the other two latter options. > Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a commit? > This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation it > is pretty trivial. let me ask two different question first: (1) If I call GET on then do I see just what I have changed (and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I see all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in? (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the point in time that was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. it always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running? > >> 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then >> should they also be added to NETCONF?  If they are added to both then I >> think that they should be added in the same way, as much as possible, >> perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive >> text?  In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC >> that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the >> individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing similar >> or equivalent text in two places. > But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? One > possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared candidates > have known problems. How do you do private candidate in NETCONF?  I thought that it was only shared candidate that had been standardized. Thanks, Rob > > Thanks, Lada > >> But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly >> warrants some WG discussion. >> >> Thanks, >> Rob >> From nobody Fri Jul 13 06:30:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9376130DF1 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 06:30:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h8dRRN5oSFlU for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 06:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (trail.lhotka.name [77.48.224.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B477C130DFC for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 06:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix, from userid 109) id A35B01820CBC; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:36:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (nat-2.nic.cz [217.31.205.2]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3722D18202E0; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:36:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Cc: Robert Wilton , "netconf\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <20180712214252.ukoe43tzxxf75bfz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <20180712214252.ukoe43tzxxf75bfz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:30:01 +0200 Message-ID: <87zhyvmffq.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:30:08 -0000 Juergen Schoenwaelder writes: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 07:22:02PM +0200, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >> > 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all.= =C2=A0=20 >> > Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying=20 >> > .=C2=A0 I.e. your staging datastores should update = on a=20 >> > commit operation, just like a commit of updates .= =C2=A0=20 >> > is always just updated as a side effect of a write to=20 >> > , and as such is a tangential consideration. >>=20 >> The main reason for using is that the target datastore into >> which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all >> times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and under >> NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have and >> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this simplification. > > I think NMDA says that and in general are _not_ > the same but that for _some_ implementations they may be de factor the > same or indistinguishable. If your proposal assumes equals > , then your proposal is only applicable to _some_ > implementations. It is indeed what is intended in my draft, I can easily avoid mentioning . The only minor deviation is that RFC 8432 says that doesn't survive reboots, which is not desirable in this case. Lada > > /js > > --=20 > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 --=20 Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Fri Jul 13 06:44:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679C3127AC2 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 06:43:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fGerOTX1-PoG for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 06:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1CAD130DD0 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 06:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1797E2326AD2; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:43:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:43:51 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Ladislav Lhotka Cc: Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180713134351.23rlxtpzcvcdhilt@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Ladislav Lhotka , Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <20180712214252.ukoe43tzxxf75bfz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <87zhyvmffq.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87zhyvmffq.fsf@nic.cz> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:43:56 -0000 On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 03:30:01PM +0200, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > Juergen Schoenwaelder writes: > > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 07:22:02PM +0200, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > >> > 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all. > >> > Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying > >> > . I.e. your staging datastores should update on a > >> > commit operation, just like a commit of updates . > >> > is always just updated as a side effect of a write to > >> > , and as such is a tangential consideration. > >> > >> The main reason for using is that the target datastore into > >> which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all > >> times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and under > >> NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have and > >> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this simplification. > > > > I think NMDA says that and in general are _not_ > > the same but that for _some_ implementations they may be de factor the > > same or indistinguishable. If your proposal assumes equals > > , then your proposal is only applicable to _some_ > > implementations. > > It is indeed what is intended in my draft, I can easily avoid > mentioning . The only minor deviation is that RFC 8432 > says that doesn't survive reboots, which is not desirable in > this case. > Then you are making a mistake and you are unnecessarily limiting the applicability of your proposal. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 13 07:19:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B9F130E14 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 07:19:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KTy6tbyz5RsY for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 07:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (trail.lhotka.name [77.48.224.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66AED130DE4 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 07:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix, from userid 109) id 816C81820CC0; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:25:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (nat-2.nic.cz [217.31.205.2]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C729A18202E0; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:25:46 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Robert Wilton , "netconf\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:19:10 +0200 Message-ID: <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:19:18 -0000 Robert Wilton writes: > Hi Lada, > > > On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >> Hi Rob, >> >> thanks for your comments, please see inline. >> >> Robert Wilton writes: >> >>> Hi Lada, >>> >>> I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments below. >>> >>> So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not RESTCONF >>> needs this functionality or not.=C2=A0 I've heard some operators state = that >>> they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and hence >>> don't have the need for a server side staging area.=C2=A0 Perhaps a good >>> question to ask in Montreal? >> I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are >> applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the >> server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I think >> with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client >> functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain >> browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTCONF >> extended according to my draft. > No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a single=20 > client commit. > > I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the=20 > configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request=20 > should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the interaction,= =20 > although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on the= =20 > client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update=20 > isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually the data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow. > > Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the=20 > expected usages of private candidate datastores. The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of multiple clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody else may want to propose a client-side solution. I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable servers and restricted clients, or vice versa. > >> >>> The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical solution, >>> and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) >>> >>> 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging areas >>> (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared lockable >>> candidate datastore.=C2=A0 This follows my belief that loosely coupled >>> concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. with >>> shared locking). >>> >>> 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all. >>> Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying >>> .=C2=A0 I.e. your staging datastores should update o= n a >>> commit operation, just like a commit of updates . >>> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to >>> , and as such is a tangential consideration. >> The main reason for using is that the target datastore into >> which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all >> times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and under >> NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have and >> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this simplification. > > has the configuration supplied by the user before any template= =20 > expansion, or inactive config removal. > is the same configuration data, but after template expansion,= =20 > inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations that=20 > the server might do. > > If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config removal,=20 > and any other random config manipulations", then is trivially= =20 > the same as . > > Whenever is due to be changed, is also updated at=20 > the same time, and validated. > > Hence is always valid, and by implication, so is ,=20 > since you cannot make a change to without also updating, and=20 > validating at the exact same time.=C2=A0 I.e. they succeed or = fail=20 > together. > > I think that your datastore design works much better with NMDA= =20 > if you update instead of . > Yes, but can be writable or not, may be locked and may be invalid. If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same device, I want to avoid their interference as much as possible. My idea is that contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at . >>> 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think >>> that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients >>> interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as per >>> draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1.=C2=A0 The new staging >>> datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit from >>> ietf-datastores:datastore identity.=C2=A0 I think that this probably al= so >>> more closely aligns to restful principals. >> Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore really >> is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in >> particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging >> datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the >> client could also interact with {+restconf}/data. > The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired*=20 > configuration with the *actual* operational state.=C2=A0 This combination= =20 > cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady state. > > I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I think=20 > that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via=20 > explicit datastores. If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. For the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040 can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts.=20 > > E.g. > (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the=20 > configuration, then it just writes to . > (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it does= =20 > it via and a commit to .=C2=A0 From a system perspecti= ve=20 > this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. > (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writes=20 > to and then commits configuration to . > (4) If can be locked, then attempts by other clients to commit= =20 > to when it is locked must fail. This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF users into learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid. > > >> >>> 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the >>> proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to >>> when they are committed.=C2=A0 I think that clients may also want to se= e the >>> combined configuration of the current contents of with the >>> delta held in applied.=C2=A0 This could be exposed either as = (i) a >>> new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-only >>> datastore.=C2=A0 A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn= 't >>> support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would be >>> to one of the other two latter options. >> Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a commit? >> This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation it >> is pretty trivial. > let me ask two different question first: > > (1) If I call GET on then do I see just what I have changed=20 > (and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I see=20 > all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in? After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes (conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of . If you do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo NACM). However, you don't see any changes that have been done to in the mean time. > > (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private=20 > changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the=20 > point in time that was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. it=20 > always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running? In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it would be possible to let track the changes in intended as long as the user doesn't start editing it. > >> >>> 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then >>> should they also be added to NETCONF?=C2=A0 If they are added to both t= hen I >>> think that they should be added in the same way, as much as possible, >>> perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive >>> text?=C2=A0 In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a R= FC >>> that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the >>> individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing similar >>> or equivalent text in two places. >> But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? One >> possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared candidat= es >> have known problems. > How do you do private candidate in NETCONF?=C2=A0 I thought that it was o= nly=20 > shared candidate that had been standardized. RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1: The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple sessions. Unless a client has specific information that the candidate configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other sessions are able to modify the candidate configuration at the same time. Lada > > Thanks, > Rob > > >> >> Thanks, Lada >> >>> But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly >>> warrants some WG discussion. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Rob >>> > --=20 Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Fri Jul 13 08:02:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8BE6130E3A for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:02:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4dsXMsNinRI5 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9E7F130E2C for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:02:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=12699; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531494175; x=1532703775; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iUT4yrPJndJSC3bGuqAXmy1PjQQiyFzpSskvBQJEMSk=; b=XQLT0M8PzSu+CK65X0X6U2NiEGoiUOBr1TfBAkXYjOhYAxjKiLYdQg/z 0//wqHJ5c9LwywUedbrlpG2YixrS6PRSgSNc/2peTXQPJG+9DQLs6v8yE MI6M0bUbvMkToKW7XRiXsYQoA0V5QB7SBmqSvpV9ceLgrVvK52/ymAzUz A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CkAQDSvkhb/xbLJq1TAQgZAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBBwEBAQEBhRkSKIN7iGONOSx1lFeBZguEbAKCcDgUAQIBAQIBAQJ?= =?us-ascii?q?tKIU2AQEBAQIBIw8BBTUHCgsLEgYCAiYCAkkOBgEMBgIBAReDBYF4CKlPgS6?= =?us-ascii?q?EW4VjgQuJTj+BESeCNTWEUQUOAYMXglUCh0RAhX6Db4drCY8hBoFDhBGCSCW?= =?us-ascii?q?FJId9hEKFVYFYIYFSMxoIGxWDJJBSAj4wiW8rghsBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,347,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="5151108" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 13 Jul 2018 15:02:52 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.105] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-105.cisco.com [10.63.23.105]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6DF2q8I025367; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:02:52 GMT To: Ladislav Lhotka , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:02:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:02:58 -0000 On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > Robert Wilton writes: > >> Hi Lada, >> >> >> On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>> Hi Rob, >>> >>> thanks for your comments, please see inline. >>> >>> Robert Wilton writes: >>> >>>> Hi Lada, >>>> >>>> I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments below. >>>> >>>> So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not RESTCONF >>>> needs this functionality or not.  I've heard some operators state that >>>> they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and hence >>>> don't have the need for a server side staging area.  Perhaps a good >>>> question to ask in Montreal? >>> I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are >>> applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the >>> server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I think >>> with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client >>> functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain >>> browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTCONF >>> extended according to my draft. >> No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a single >> client commit. >> >> I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the >> configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request >> should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the interaction, >> although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on the >> client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update >> isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. > I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually the > data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target > config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this > is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow. This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into .  Either the config change can be merged without errors and validates successfully (via ), or the merge fails, or validation fails.  If either the merge or validate fails then is not changed, the config change is rejected, and the client notified. > >> Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the >> expected usages of private candidate datastores. > The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of multiple > clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody > else may want to propose a client-side solution. Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer.  I don't think that there is anything to standardize here. > > I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable > servers and restricted clients, or vice versa. > >>>> The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical solution, >>>> and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) >>>> >>>> 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging areas >>>> (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared lockable >>>> candidate datastore.  This follows my belief that loosely coupled >>>> concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. with >>>> shared locking). >>>> >>>> 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all. >>>> Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying >>>> .  I.e. your staging datastores should update on a >>>> commit operation, just like a commit of updates . >>>> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to >>>> , and as such is a tangential consideration. >>> The main reason for using is that the target datastore into >>> which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all >>> times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and under >>> NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have and >>> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this simplification. >> has the configuration supplied by the user before any template >> expansion, or inactive config removal. >> is the same configuration data, but after template expansion, >> inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations that >> the server might do. >> >> If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config removal, >> and any other random config manipulations", then is trivially >> the same as . >> >> Whenever is due to be changed, is also updated at >> the same time, and validated. >> >> Hence is always valid, and by implication, so is , >> since you cannot make a change to without also updating, and >> validating at the exact same time.  I.e. they succeed or fail >> together. >> >> I think that your datastore design works much better with NMDA >> if you update instead of . >> > Yes, but can be writable or not, may be locked and may be > invalid. Yes, and that is all fine. > > If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of > naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same device, I > want to avoid their interference as much as possible. You can't.  Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the same data, they need to be sympathetic to each other. > My idea is that > contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at . Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture at all.  The NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configuration operations combine at rather than .  This is also the merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used. The purpose of is as a mechanism to handle template expansion, inactive config, and possibly other default server config.  It isn't meant to be another configuration merge point. > >>>> 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think >>>> that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients >>>> interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as per >>>> draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1.  The new staging >>>> datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit from >>>> ietf-datastores:datastore identity.  I think that this probably also >>>> more closely aligns to restful principals. >>> Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore really >>> is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in >>> particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging >>> datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the >>> client could also interact with {+restconf}/data. >> The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired* >> configuration with the *actual* operational state.  This combination >> cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady state. >> >> I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I think >> that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via >> explicit datastores. > If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. For > the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040 > can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can > be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts. >> E.g. >> (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the >> configuration, then it just writes to . >> (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it does >> it via and a commit to .  From a system perspective >> this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. >> (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writes >> to and then commits configuration to . >> (4) If can be locked, then attempts by other clients to commit >> to when it is locked must fail. > This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF users into > learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid. It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't implement locking of shared candidate. I prefer explicit behavior. E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the contents of a shared datastore makes the two protocols work together simpler.  More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and potentially very bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the NETCONF client isn't employing locking). >>>> 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the >>>> proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to >>>> when they are committed.  I think that clients may also want to see the >>>> combined configuration of the current contents of with the >>>> delta held in applied.  This could be exposed either as (i) a >>>> new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-only >>>> datastore.  A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't >>>> support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would be >>>> to one of the other two latter options. >>> Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a commit? >>> This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation it >>> is pretty trivial. >> let me ask two different question first: >> >> (1) If I call GET on then do I see just what I have changed >> (and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I see >> all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in? > After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes > (conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of . If you > do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo > NACM). However, you don't see any changes that have been done to > in the mean time. OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta against the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with the latest baseline version.  Obviously, there would need to be a mechanism to report merge conflicts. > >> (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private >> changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the >> point in time that was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. it >> always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running? > In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when > was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it would > be possible to let track the changes in intended as long as > the user doesn't start editing it. > >>>> 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then >>>> should they also be added to NETCONF?  If they are added to both then I >>>> think that they should be added in the same way, as much as possible, >>>> perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive >>>> text?  In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC >>>> that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the >>>> individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing similar >>>> or equivalent text in two places. >>> But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? One >>> possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared candidates >>> have known problems. >> How do you do private candidate in NETCONF?  I thought that it was only >> shared candidate that had been standardized. > RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1: > > The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple sessions. > Unless a client has specific information that the candidate > configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other sessions are > able to modify the candidate configuration at the same time. This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is generally regarded as being shared, not private. Thanks, Rob > > Lada > >> Thanks, >> Rob >> >> >>> Thanks, Lada >>> >>>> But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly >>>> warrants some WG discussion. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Rob >>>> From nobody Fri Jul 13 08:16:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F6D130E14 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:16:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sz6jafk_bSg5 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22b.google.com (mail-lf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8728C130DD7 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id m13-v6so27472458lfb.12 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:16:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AfBVW/0mOPhC4e68Pq0jwdDkLgcdAHiGy+k3QeoGHcc=; b=V4qhOwOxcAiIaDZTarD8ZpmtlNL+cgIVATIprjj4lSAOMSuck/lSl8FdxiRoE2rD+B E6pIIckDqfougwxhmS3uzHBcjagHYTr8BfFOya064ZxIhrT8t6FV+0JUfKv89J2KQmim Kvfr41jv+hmaLfzHgFizAozvLVhlpwz2nj6+Fwy3cbUT+sNqyOZbnQ0s8jT4rJCxAGy3 L7fxM4RVAFt7wcpsD9XYTz42Js/wcljbJpchYpNaXKgDmbqvGfXeS/6nPV2QlfNk8ew6 0F1hl+9lj8LPH6QhXONuKa7h7KuNALQ9iD1D8u2M18ZSZrnGG0UjW9LzxOCRY6I7zws2 g0wQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AfBVW/0mOPhC4e68Pq0jwdDkLgcdAHiGy+k3QeoGHcc=; b=YNIt+BLIXiWMmvD0ii3OmRvQ//mDahj7Zq7bA4FXlnt4skscOeWNwQpRreS7js+9qf VkJpUyr0k7cJZEg/HGDLB8+xi52VFD9iH/+u4Y3KCv+AkVXywiPwwEMGuio8HLXl4lo6 K9anSjEo374pEUPv3bcIAFzG0oMUhzJsGmEGGrwBufa32zMTlNfoj6epST2K1O+UQlOo cJFGViuxSvwTXbX4RPad7BYTOt8o3fqy5Ik9XsxW+vsvqlJz3Pia6Q6EiRCJwqmXzlZz Ifgs445SpJh62ipviRRB5z9dWj9cGha1NuWpM09QdZnluJnyLbAJKvXiNgM8uEAJQaCJ PC+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlE3VvC+3c3VE/2SiMM68/q1nXLbB+zAeGco8D8sLS0RU2WaclhP IA0p9GFKpcGag301P871tmXZjO+UPPy0Z5HC0Xh/VA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcjY4//BdFyPANaBewxoKOTbOYcjinI7ikasntCmu7QWbT2WAeMJ82ptdEC3DCigcAdpuWR68F+jJ9NLTLpaEU= X-Received: by 2002:a19:d819:: with SMTP id p25-v6mr5201105lfg.36.1531494967525; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:16:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:16:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:16:06 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Wilton Cc: Ladislav Lhotka , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000083dbf00570e2f56c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:16:14 -0000 --00000000000083dbf00570e2f56c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF. In the future, a protocol-independent solution for concurrent edit operations might be interesting. Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI should be deprecated or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full. Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF. They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent). Operations are 1-shot and stateless. RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described in RFC 6241 does not work for RESTCONF. Andy On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton < rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > >> Robert Wilton writes: >> >> Hi Lada, >>> >>> >>> On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Rob, >>>> >>>> thanks for your comments, please see inline. >>>> >>>> Robert Wilton writes: >>>> >>>> Hi Lada, >>>>> >>>>> I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments below. >>>>> >>>>> So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not RESTCONF >>>>> needs this functionality or not. I've heard some operators state that >>>>> they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and >>>>> hence >>>>> don't have the need for a server side staging area. Perhaps a good >>>>> question to ask in Montreal? >>>>> >>>> I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are >>>> applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the >>>> server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I think >>>> with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client >>>> functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain >>>> browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTCONF >>>> extended according to my draft. >>>> >>> No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a single >>> client commit. >>> >>> I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the >>> configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request >>> should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the interaction, >>> although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on the >>> client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update >>> isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. >>> >> I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually the >> data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target >> config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this >> is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow. >> > This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into > . Either the config change can be merged without errors and > validates successfully (via ), or the merge fails, or validation > fails. If either the merge or validate fails then is not > changed, the config change is rejected, and the client notified. > > >> Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the >>> expected usages of private candidate datastores. >>> >> The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of multiple >> clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody >> else may want to propose a client-side solution. >> > Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer. I don't think > that there is anything to standardize here. > > >> I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable >> servers and restricted clients, or vice versa. >> >> The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical solution, >>>>> and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) >>>>> >>>>> 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging areas >>>>> (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared lockable >>>>> candidate datastore. This follows my belief that loosely coupled >>>>> concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. with >>>>> shared locking). >>>>> >>>>> 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all. >>>>> Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying >>>>> . I.e. your staging datastores should update on a >>>>> commit operation, just like a commit of updates . >>>>> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to >>>>> , and as such is a tangential consideration. >>>>> >>>> The main reason for using is that the target datastore into >>>> which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all >>>> times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and under >>>> NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have and >>>> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this simplification. >>>> >>> has the configuration supplied by the user before any template >>> expansion, or inactive config removal. >>> is the same configuration data, but after template expansion, >>> inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations that >>> the server might do. >>> >>> If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config removal, >>> and any other random config manipulations", then is trivially >>> the same as . >>> >>> Whenever is due to be changed, is also updated at >>> the same time, and validated. >>> >>> Hence is always valid, and by implication, so is , >>> since you cannot make a change to without also updating, and >>> validating at the exact same time. I.e. they succeed or fail >>> together. >>> >>> I think that your datastore design works much better with NMDA >>> if you update instead of . >>> >>> Yes, but can be writable or not, may be locked and may be >> invalid. >> > Yes, and that is all fine. > > >> If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of >> naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same device, I >> want to avoid their interference as much as possible. >> > You can't. Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the same data, > they need to be sympathetic to each other. > > My idea is that >> contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at . >> > Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture at all. The > NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configuration > operations combine at rather than . This is also the > merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used. > > The purpose of is as a mechanism to handle template expansion, > inactive config, and possibly other default server config. It isn't meant > to be another configuration merge point. > > >> 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think >>>>> that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients >>>>> interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as per >>>>> draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1. The new staging >>>>> datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit >>>>> from >>>>> ietf-datastores:datastore identity. I think that this probably also >>>>> more closely aligns to restful principals. >>>>> >>>> Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore really >>>> is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in >>>> particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging >>>> datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the >>>> client could also interact with {+restconf}/data. >>>> >>> The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired* >>> configuration with the *actual* operational state. This combination >>> cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady >>> state. >>> >>> I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I think >>> that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via >>> explicit datastores. >>> >> If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. For >> the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040 >> can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can >> be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts. >> > > E.g. >>> (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the >>> configuration, then it just writes to . >>> (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it does >>> it via and a commit to . From a system perspective >>> this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. >>> (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writes >>> to and then commits configuration to . >>> (4) If can be locked, then attempts by other clients to commit >>> to when it is locked must fail. >>> >> This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF users into >> learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid. >> > It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't implement > locking of shared candidate. > > I prefer explicit behavior. > > E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the contents of > a shared datastore makes the two protocols work together > simpler. More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and > potentially very bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if > the NETCONF client isn't employing locking). > > 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the >>>>> proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to >>>>> when they are committed. I think that clients may also want to see the >>>>> combined configuration of the current contents of with the >>>>> delta held in applied. This could be exposed either as (i) a >>>>> new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-only >>>>> datastore. A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't >>>>> support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would be >>>>> to one of the other two latter options. >>>>> >>>> Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a commit? >>>> This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation it >>>> is pretty trivial. >>>> >>> let me ask two different question first: >>> >>> (1) If I call GET on then do I see just what I have changed >>> (and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I see >>> all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in? >>> >> After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes >> (conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of . If you >> do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo >> NACM). However, you don't see any changes that have been done to >> in the mean time. >> > OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta against > the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with the > latest baseline version. Obviously, there would need to be a mechanism to > report merge conflicts. > > >> (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private >>> changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the >>> point in time that was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. it >>> always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running? >>> >> In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when >> was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it would >> be possible to let track the changes in intended as long as >> the user doesn't start editing it. >> >> 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then >>>>> should they also be added to NETCONF? If they are added to both then I >>>>> think that they should be added in the same way, as much as possible, >>>>> perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive >>>>> text? In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC >>>>> that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the >>>>> individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing similar >>>>> or equivalent text in two places. >>>>> >>>> But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? One >>>> possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared >>>> candidates >>>> have known problems. >>>> >>> How do you do private candidate in NETCONF? I thought that it was only >>> shared candidate that had been standardized. >>> >> RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1: >> >> The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple sessions. >> Unless a client has specific information that the candidate >> configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other sessions are >> able to modify the candidate configuration at the same time. >> > This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is generally > regarded as being shared, not private. > > Thanks, > Rob > > > >> Lada >> >> Thanks, >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Lada >>>> >>>> But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly >>>>> warrants some WG discussion. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Rob >>>>> >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --00000000000083dbf00570e2f56c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I do not think this problem should = be worked on for RESTCONF.
In the future, a protocol-independent = solution for
concurrent edit operations might be interesting.

Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "= unified" URI should be deprecated
or that requiring multiple= editing steps is REST-full.

Customers like the cl= ient-side simplicity of RESTCONF.
They can use simple curl comman= ds (or library equivalent).
Operations are 1-shot and stateless.<= /div>

RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session l= ocking described in RFC 6241
does not work for RESTCONF.

Andy




On Fri, Jul 13= , 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton <rwilton=3D40cisco.com= @dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
Robert Wilton <rw= ilton@cisco.com> writes:

Hi Lada,


On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
Hi Rob,

thanks for your comments, please see inline.

Robert Wilton <rw= ilton@cisco.com> writes:

Hi Lada,

I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments below.
So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not RESTCONF needs this functionality or not.=C2=A0 I've heard some operators state = that
they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, an= d hence
don't have the need for a server side staging area.=C2=A0 Perhaps a goo= d
question to ask in Montreal?
I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are
applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the
server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I think
with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client
functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain
browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTCONF
extended according to my draft.
No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a single=
client commit.

I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the
configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request
should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the interaction= ,
although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on the client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update
isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm.
I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually the
data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target
config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this
is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow.
This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into <runn= ing>.=C2=A0 Either the config change can be merged without errors and va= lidates successfully (via <intended>), or the merge fails, or validat= ion fails.=C2=A0 If either the merge or validate fails then <running>= is not changed, the config change is rejected, and the client notified.

Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the
expected usages of private candidate datastores.
The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of multiple
clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody
else may want to propose a client-side solution.
Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer.=C2=A0 I don'= ;t think that there is anything to standardize here.


I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable
servers and restricted clients, or vice versa.

The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical solution, and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-)

1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging areas
(aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared lockable
candidate datastore.=C2=A0 This follows my belief that loosely coupled
concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. with
shared locking).

2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention <intended> at a= ll.
Instead, everywhere you mention <intended> then you should be saying<= br> <running>.=C2=A0 I.e. your staging datastores should update <runni= ng> on a
commit operation, just like a commit of <candidate> updates <runni= ng>.
<intended> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to
<running>, and as such is a tangential consideration.
The main reason for using <intended> is that the target datastore int= o
which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all
times. <running> has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and und= er
NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have <running> = and
<intended> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this simplificatio= n.
<running> has the configuration supplied by the user before any templ= ate
expansion, or inactive config removal.
<intended> is the same configuration data, but after template expansi= on,
inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations that
the server might do.

If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config remo= val,
and any other random config manipulations", then <intended> is t= rivially
the same as <running>.

Whenever <running> is due to be changed, <intended> is also upd= ated at
the same time, and validated.

Hence <intended> is always valid, and by implication, so is <runni= ng>,
since you cannot make a change to <running> without also updating, an= d
validating <intended> at the exact same time.=C2=A0 I.e. they succeed= or fail
together.

I think that your <staging> datastore design works much better with N= MDA
if you update <running> instead of <intended>.

Yes, but <running> can be writable or not, may be locked and may be invalid.
Yes, and that is all fine.


If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of
naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same device, I want to avoid their interference as much as possible.
You can't.=C2=A0 Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the same d= ata, they need to be sympathetic to each other.

=C2=A0 My idea is that
contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at <intended>.
Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture at all.= =C2=A0 The NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configura= tion operations combine at <running> rather than <intended>.=C2= =A0 This is also the merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are b= eing used.

The purpose of <intended> is as a mechanism to handle template expans= ion, inactive config, and possibly other default server config.=C2=A0 It is= n't meant to be another configuration merge point.


3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think
that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients
interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as per=
draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1.=C2=A0 The new staging=
datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit from ietf-datastores:datastore identity.=C2=A0 I think that this probably also more closely aligns to restful principals.
Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore rea= lly
is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in
particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging
datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the
client could also interact with {+restconf}/data.
The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired*
configuration with the *actual* operational state.=C2=A0 This combination cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady sta= te.

I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I think
that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via
explicit datastores.
If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. For
the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040
can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can
be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts.

E.g.
(1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the
configuration, then it just writes to <running>.
(2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it does it via <staging> and a commit to <running>.=C2=A0 From a system= perspective
this is pretty much the same as (1) any way.
(3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writes
to <candidate> and then commits configuration to <running>.
(4) If <running> can be locked, then attempts by other clients to com= mit
to <running> when it is locked must fail.
This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF users into=
learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid.
It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't implement loc= king of shared candidate.

I prefer explicit behavior.

E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the contents= of a shared <candidate> datastore makes the two protocols work toget= her simpler.=C2=A0 More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, a= nd potentially very bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. = if the NETCONF client isn't employing locking).

4) So, I think that the <staging> datastore itself only contains the<= br> proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to <running>=
when they are committed.=C2=A0 I think that clients may also want to see th= e
combined configuration of the current contents of <running> with the<= br> delta held in <staging> applied.=C2=A0 This could be exposed either a= s (i) a
new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-only
datastore.=C2=A0 A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn'= ;t
support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would be
to one of the other two latter options.
Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a comm= it?
This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation it
is pretty trivial.
let me ask two different question first:

(1) If I call GET on <staging> then do I see just what I have changed=
(and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I= see
all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in?
After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes
(conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of <intended>. If = you
do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo
NACM).=C2=A0 However, you don't see any changes that have been done to<= br> <intended> in the mean time.
OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta against th= e base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with the lat= est baseline version.=C2=A0 Obviously, there would need to be a mechanism t= o report merge conflicts.


(2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private
changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the
point in time that <staging> was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. = it
always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running?
In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when
<staging> was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it wo= uld
be possible to let <staging> track the changes in intended as long as=
the user doesn't start editing it.

5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then
should they also be added to NETCONF?=C2=A0 If they are added to both then = I
think that they should be added in the same way, as much as possible,
perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive
text?=C2=A0 In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a R= FC
that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the
individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing similar
or equivalent text in two places.
But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? One
possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared candidates<= br> have known problems.
How do you do private candidate in NETCONF?=C2=A0 I thought that it was onl= y
shared candidate that had been standardized.
RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple sess= ions.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Unless a client has specific information that the candidate =C2=A0 =C2=A0 configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other sessio= ns are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 able to modify the candidate configuration at the same time.<= br>
This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is generally rega= rded as being shared, not private.

Thanks,
Rob



Lada

Thanks,
Rob


Thanks, Lada

But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly
warrants some WG discussion.

Thanks,
Rob


_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

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<20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.209.217.32] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 21:26:24 -0000 SGksDQoNCkkgd2lsbCB1bmZvcnR1bmF0ZWx5IG5vdCBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIGF0dGVuZCBNb25kYXkn 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aCB0aGlzIHNvbWV3aGVyZSBpbiB5b3VyIHByZXNvLg0KPiA+Pg0KPiA+PiBUaGFua3MsDQo+ID4+ IEtlbnQgLy8gY2hhaXINCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPg0KPiANCj4gX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gTmV0Y29uZiBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gTmV0Y29uZkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL25ldGNvbmYNCg== From nobody Fri Jul 13 14:53:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51336124C04 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:53:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78taI0BJ_ldT for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04FE0126CB6 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id q127-v6so24952698ljq.11 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:53:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=C3l9//+3YnGRhooC0g8Mw92mbS6w9H2xZqFFbCTVrjo=; b=jafgl9I4tnhO4Jpk+X2k/+x3Ys9lKS1XPFF7VPLwamWan+yVt0r/JfIDQRcaEENiEN 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpds9jZxd1nBk7epuCJD5CfVvRom1dar8AjwF+4DFWY11VAFXEMv7q7SDoE+pNteDoEVc0GSDvybnqsjAW/Vyco= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:195c:: with SMTP id p89-v6mr4498285lje.138.1531518782179; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:53:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:53:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB2F625@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB2F625@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:53:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Clemm Cc: Henk Birkholz , Robert Wilton , Kent Watsen , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fa9d850570e8806c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 21:53:08 -0000 --000000000000fa9d850570e8806c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, If the SN draft is only held up for configured subscriptions, and the people interested in implementing this YANG feature right away are OK with the receiver list as-is, then A1, B1 seems like an easy choice. Andy On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 1:44 PM, Alexander Clemm wrote: > Hi, > > I will unfortunately not be able to attend Monday's meeting (still in > transit), so let me briefly summarize what the options are and their > implications, and which we therefore prefer as authors. > > Regarding progressing Dynamic and Configured Together (hum A): > > Option A1: Keep them together, as currently defined in the draft. This > option is done & currently defined in the drafts. This will be the faste= st > and is thus preferred. > > Option A2: Keep them together, but leave the Netconf transport option for > configured open for now. This requires updates to the Netconf Notificati= on > draft (draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications), but the updates > should be straightforward and the time delta should still be small. Onc= e > ietf-netconf-server.yang completes, a -bis version of the Netconf > Notification draft can be issued to accommodate configured subscriptions > with call home using netconf server. This option is not preferred but > acceptable. > > Option A3: Take out configured subscriptions altogether for now, to > revisit at a later point. Keep only dynamic subscriptions. This option > implies having to refactor the drafts. It will imply further delay and > significant effort to make the updates. The concern is that this will mi= ss > the market window, therefore IMHO this a terrible option. Frankly, given > this, I am not sure that the authors will be willing to invest all that > effort into something that will de-facto only diminish value. > > Regarding progressing subscribed notification (SN) and YANG-Push (YP) > together (hum B): > > Option B1: Keep them together as one cluster. This has been the WG > direction since this stuff was adopted; SN was actually created by breaki= ng > out the generalizable portions from YP at the time. They really belong > together and the business value we are targeting is provided by them > jointly, even if SN can be used on its own. Hence, author preference is = to > keep them together. > > Option B2: Separate them out. The concern is that while in theory it > might not result in further delays, in practice it still breeds the risk = of > doing so. (And we know that the difference between theory and practice i= s > that while in theory both are the same, in practice often they are not.) > > Summary: Authors clearly prefer A1 and B1, although they will accept A2 > and B2 if the WG decides to go there. A3 is a terrible option and a very > clear no go. > --- Alex > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk > Birkholz > > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 1:54 AM > > To: Robert Wilton ; Kent Watsen >; > > Andy Bierman ; Netconf > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > > > Hi all, > > > > I would also like to see the implications and consequences of a specifi= c > hum > > option to be highlighted very clearly and explicitly. Every option that > is available > > to hum on should highlight an expected amount of delay of WGLC created = by > > the decision. > > > > This thread's subject is "YangPush now" and that is exactly the point. > > Remodeling takes time. Wrt to number of changes, I would like to > encourage > > the minimal viable solution at this point of time (yes, I a can barely > believe it > > myself... but it is actually me, who is writing this statement... maybe > to some > > this is an indicator). > > > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > > > Henk > > > > > > On 07/13/2018 10:50 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could > > > explicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the > > > choices below they think would lead to the work completing most > quickly. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote: > > >>> I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions > > >>> (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expeditin= g > > >>> WGLC or > > >>> modularity) > > >> Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. > > >> > > >> hums now are: > > >> > > >> 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > > >> a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) > > >> b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > > >> > > >> 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > > >> a. SN first, then YP (published sequentially) > > >> b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) > > >> > > >> Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Kent // chair > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --000000000000fa9d850570e8806c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,


If the SN draft is o= nly held up for configured subscriptions,
and the people interest= ed in implementing this YANG feature right away
are OK with the r= eceiver list as-is, then A1, B1 seems like an easy choice.


Andy



On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 1:4= 4 PM, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com> = wrote:
Hi,

I will unfortunately not be able to attend Monday's meeting (still in t= ransit),=C2=A0 so let me briefly summarize what the options are and their i= mplications, and which we therefore prefer as authors.

Regarding progressing Dynamic and Configured Together (hum A):

Option A1: Keep them together, as currently defined in the draft.=C2=A0 Thi= s option is done & currently defined in the drafts.=C2=A0 This will be = the fastest and is thus preferred.=C2=A0

Option A2: Keep them together, but leave the Netconf transport option for c= onfigured open for now.=C2=A0 This requires updates to the Netconf Notifica= tion draft (draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications), but the u= pdates should be straightforward and the time delta should still be small.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Once ietf-netconf-server.yang completes, a -bis version of the= Netconf Notification draft can be issued to accommodate configured subscri= ptions with call home using netconf server.=C2=A0 This option is not prefer= red but acceptable.=C2=A0

Option A3: Take out configured subscriptions altogether for now, to revisit= at a later point.=C2=A0 Keep only dynamic subscriptions.=C2=A0 This option= implies having to refactor the drafts.=C2=A0 It will imply further delay a= nd significant effort to make the updates.=C2=A0 The concern is that this w= ill miss the market window, therefore IMHO this a terrible option.=C2=A0 Fr= ankly, given this, I am not sure that the authors will be willing to invest= all that effort into something that will de-facto only diminish value.=C2= =A0

Regarding progressing subscribed notification (SN) and YANG-Push (YP) toget= her (hum B):

Option B1: Keep them together as one cluster.=C2=A0 This has been the WG di= rection since this stuff was adopted; SN was actually created by breaking o= ut the generalizable portions from YP at the time.=C2=A0 They really belong= together and the business value we are targeting is provided by them joint= ly, even if SN can be used on its own.=C2=A0 Hence, author preference is to= keep them together.=C2=A0

Option B2: Separate them out.=C2=A0 The concern is that while in theory it = might not result in further delays, in practice it still breeds the risk of= doing so.=C2=A0 (And we know that the difference between theory and practi= ce is that while in theory both are the same, in practice often they are no= t.)=C2=A0

Summary: Authors clearly prefer A1 and B1, although they will accept A2 and= B2 if the WG decides to go there.=C2=A0 A3 is a terrible option and a very= clear no go.=C2=A0
--- Alex


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Netconf [mailto:netc= onf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 1:54 AM
> To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cis= co.com>; Kent Watsen <kwat= sen@juniper.net>;
> Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.= com>; Netconf <netconf@ietf.o= rg>
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would also like to see the implications and consequences of a specif= ic hum
> option to be highlighted very clearly and explicitly. Every option tha= t is available
> to hum on should highlight an expected amount of delay of WGLC created= by
> the decision.
>
> This thread's subject is "YangPush now" and that is exac= tly the point.
> Remodeling takes time. Wrt to number of changes, I would like to encou= rage
> the minimal viable solution at this point of time (yes, I a can barely= believe it
> myself... but it is actually me, who is writing this statement... mayb= e to some
> this is an indicator).
>
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>
> Henk
>
>
> On 07/13/2018 10:50 AM, Robert Wilton wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could > > explicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of t= he
> > choices below they think would lead to the work completing most q= uickly.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote:
> >>> I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subs= criptions
> >>> (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of= expediting
> >>> WGLC or
> >>> modularity)
> >> Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang = push.
> >>
> >> hums now are:
> >>
> >> =C2=A0 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a. dynamic first, then configured (publish= ed sequentially)
> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 b. dynamic and configure together (publish= ed in parallel)
> >>
> >> =C2=A0 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push
> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a. SN first, then YP=C2=A0 (published sequ= entially)
> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 b. SN and YP together (published in parall= el)
> >>
> >> Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your= preso.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Kent // chair
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf=

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(evoit)" To: Andy Bierman , Alexander Clemm CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUGvdEAK87NKpG2E+Ouz7jjC6MRA== Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 22:17:21 +0000 Message-ID: <1f590cb6dd71455e936fcc14f2afc3f2@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB2F625@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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bmsiPg0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9uZXRjb25mPC9hPjxv OnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFs Ij4mbmJzcDs8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0K PC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_F5D8D34121DD45F69F6D33946E441E77junipernet_-- From nobody Fri Jul 13 21:12:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66FE131008 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 21:12:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SIpjgtEIFmOQ for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 21:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 050C3131056 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 21:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id w6E4CCTY012621 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 14 Jul 2018 06:12:13 +0200 Received: from [31.133.150.210] (31.133.150.210) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 06:12:06 +0200 To: Kent Watsen , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Andy Bierman , Alexander Clemm CC: Netconf References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB2F625@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> <1f590cb6dd71455e936fcc14f2afc3f2@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <80050815-C694-47E0-BAC2-D4A042FBE92A@cisco.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <57a7ab7d-4b4d-91a9-e605-a54a2b59c85a@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 06:06:12 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [31.133.150.210] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 04:12:37 -0000 Hello Kent, while I fully agree with scoping a hum beforehand and with the statement that "any preferences posted before won't be counted", I am surprised by reading the statement "BTW, I'm unsure if A2 is a viable option." in the same message. Maybe I am missing something very obvious here, but is that not the exact same thing you were discouraging beforehand? Again, this is not an attempt to disrupt a constructive and targeted process. I am new to this domain and just puzzled by the semantic difference of a "preference" and an "option" stated on the list - as it seems to me subjectively - they are hard to distinguish for me as a non-native speaker. In consequence, I would like to know what a useful comment before a hum looks like and - in contrast - how a comment that does not count looks like. The reason for my ("noob") question is that I am unfamiliar with the proceedings of this WG & I do not want to infuse disruptive comments & I am now unsure how to phrase a productive contribution, I think. If I voiced a preference that does not count, I am very sorry. I only wanted to highlight that not only a set of options, but also their implications have to be well understood by the audience before humming. That was my only intend :) Viele Grüße, Henk On 07/14/2018 02:40 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > Folks, > > While it's okay to post your preferences beforehand, note that the goal > > of the hum is to get the room's collective response at once.  As such, any > > preferences posted before won't be counted.  For the folks that won't > > be present, at the appropriate time, please enter your choice in jabber. > > Note that, regardless the outcome of the hums, the *same* end-result > > will be achieved in time (either all at once or piecemeal).   We're only > > looking at if there is an opportunity of getting a subset to RFC status > > faster (a number of people asked for this).  It will be a snap-decision, > > if there isn't an *obvious* preference from the room, then it will be > > author's choice. > > BTW, I'm unsure if A2 is a viable option.  It seems that it should not be > > possible to configure a receiver without specifying the transport.  In > > YANG terms, SN might need a mandatory "choice" that the notif models > > augment into.  I think that, to support configured subscriptions, there > > should be at least one mandatory to implement "notif" draft. > > Kent > > On 7/13/18, 6:56 PM, "Netconf on behalf of Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" > on behalf of > rrahman=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > > wrote: > > I am not an author of SN or YP but I’m a supporter of A1 and B1. I still > don’t see the point/intent of doing anything else. > > Regards, > > Reshad. > > *From: *Netconf on behalf of "Eric Voit > (evoit)" > *Date: *Friday, July 13, 2018 at 6:17 PM > *To: *'Andy Bierman' , Alexander Clemm > > *Cc: *Netconf > *Subject: *Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > +1.   A1 & B1. > > Eric > > *From:*Netconf *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman > *Sent:* Friday, July 13, 2018 5:53 PM > *To:* Alexander Clemm > *Cc:* Netconf > *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > Hi, > > If the SN draft is only held up for configured subscriptions, > > and the people interested in implementing this YANG feature right away > > are OK with the receiver list as-is, then A1, B1 seems like an easy choice. > > Andy > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 1:44 PM, Alexander Clemm > > wrote: > > Hi, > > I will unfortunately not be able to attend Monday's meeting (still > in transit),  so let me briefly summarize what the options are and > their implications, and which we therefore prefer as authors. > > Regarding progressing Dynamic and Configured Together (hum A): > > Option A1: Keep them together, as currently defined in the draft. > This option is done & currently defined in the drafts.  This will be > the fastest and is thus preferred. > > Option A2: Keep them together, but leave the Netconf transport > option for configured open for now.  This requires updates to the > Netconf Notification draft > (draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications), but the updates > should be straightforward and the time delta should still be small. >  Once ietf-netconf-server.yang completes, a -bis version of the > Netconf Notification draft can be issued to accommodate configured > subscriptions with call home using netconf server.  This option is > not preferred but acceptable. > > Option A3: Take out configured subscriptions altogether for now, to > revisit at a later point.  Keep only dynamic subscriptions.  This > option implies having to refactor the drafts.  It will imply further > delay and significant effort to make the updates.  The concern is > that this will miss the market window, therefore IMHO this a > terrible option.  Frankly, given this, I am not sure that the > authors will be willing to invest all that effort into something > that will de-facto only diminish value. > > Regarding progressing subscribed notification (SN) and YANG-Push > (YP) together (hum B): > > Option B1: Keep them together as one cluster.  This has been the WG > direction since this stuff was adopted; SN was actually created by > breaking out the generalizable portions from YP at the time.  They > really belong together and the business value we are targeting is > provided by them jointly, even if SN can be used on its own.  Hence, > author preference is to keep them together. > > Option B2: Separate them out.  The concern is that while in theory > it might not result in further delays, in practice it still breeds > the risk of doing so.  (And we know that the difference between > theory and practice is that while in theory both are the same, in > practice often they are not.) > > Summary: Authors clearly prefer A1 and B1, although they will accept > A2 and B2 if the WG decides to go there.  A3 is a terrible option > and a very clear no go. > --- Alex > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org > ] On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz > > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 1:54 AM > > To: Robert Wilton >; > Kent Watsen >; > > Andy Bierman >; > Netconf > > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > > > Hi all, > > > > I would also like to see the implications and consequences of a > specific hum > > option to be highlighted very clearly and explicitly. Every > option that is available > > to hum on should highlight an expected amount of delay of WGLC > created by > > the decision. > > > > This thread's subject is "YangPush now" and that is exactly the > point. > > Remodeling takes time. Wrt to number of changes, I would like to > encourage > > the minimal viable solution at this point of time (yes, I a can > barely believe it > > myself... but it is actually me, who is writing this statement... > maybe to some > > this is an indicator). > > > > Viele Grüße, > > > > Henk > > > > > > On 07/13/2018 10:50 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could > > > explicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the > > > choices below they think would lead to the work completing most > quickly. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote: > > >>> I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured > subscriptions > > >>> (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of > expediting > > >>> WGLC or > > >>> modularity) > > >> Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. > > >> > > >> hums now are: > > >> > > >>   1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > > >>     a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) > > >>     b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > > >> > > >>   2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > > >>     a. SN first, then YP  (published sequentially) > > >>     b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) > > >> > > >> Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your > preso. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Kent // chair > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > From nobody Fri Jul 13 23:01:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A65130DE0 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 23:01:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZxnX-Y9hfXo4 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 23:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC821294D7 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 23:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 631F323288AB; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 08:01:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 08:01:48 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Alexander Clemm Cc: Henk Birkholz , Robert Wilton , Kent Watsen , Andy Bierman , Netconf Message-ID: <20180714060148.gv5geiy7gsdhyc3b@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Clemm , Henk Birkholz , Robert Wilton , Kent Watsen , Andy Bierman , Netconf References: <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB2F625@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB2F625@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 06:01:54 -0000 I am confused to which drafts this analysis applies exactly. The work seems to be covered by the following drafts: - draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push [56 pages] - draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications [74 pages] - draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif [33 pages] - draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages [23 pages] - draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications [26 pages] - draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel [19 pages] I do not think all the 231 pages are 'done', there were technical issues raised on the list related to configured subscriptions recently, more specifically draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif. Note that the goal is not to minimize edits but to avoid getting stuck on issues during WG last call (or the publication queue) on features that may not seem that relevant. It may also be useful to have a fair assessment of the dependencies of these drafts (or the relevant drafts for the questions) wrt configuration data models and their progress. /js On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 08:44:41PM +0000, Alexander Clemm wrote: > Hi, > > I will unfortunately not be able to attend Monday's meeting (still in transit), so let me briefly summarize what the options are and their implications, and which we therefore prefer as authors. > > Regarding progressing Dynamic and Configured Together (hum A): > > Option A1: Keep them together, as currently defined in the draft. This option is done & currently defined in the drafts. This will be the fastest and is thus preferred. > > Option A2: Keep them together, but leave the Netconf transport option for configured open for now. This requires updates to the Netconf Notification draft (draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications), but the updates should be straightforward and the time delta should still be small. Once ietf-netconf-server.yang completes, a -bis version of the Netconf Notification draft can be issued to accommodate configured subscriptions with call home using netconf server. This option is not preferred but acceptable. > > Option A3: Take out configured subscriptions altogether for now, to revisit at a later point. Keep only dynamic subscriptions. This option implies having to refactor the drafts. It will imply further delay and significant effort to make the updates. The concern is that this will miss the market window, therefore IMHO this a terrible option. Frankly, given this, I am not sure that the authors will be willing to invest all that effort into something that will de-facto only diminish value. > > Regarding progressing subscribed notification (SN) and YANG-Push (YP) together (hum B): > > Option B1: Keep them together as one cluster. This has been the WG direction since this stuff was adopted; SN was actually created by breaking out the generalizable portions from YP at the time. They really belong together and the business value we are targeting is provided by them jointly, even if SN can be used on its own. Hence, author preference is to keep them together. > > Option B2: Separate them out. The concern is that while in theory it might not result in further delays, in practice it still breeds the risk of doing so. (And we know that the difference between theory and practice is that while in theory both are the same, in practice often they are not.) > > Summary: Authors clearly prefer A1 and B1, although they will accept A2 and B2 if the WG decides to go there. A3 is a terrible option and a very clear no go. > --- Alex > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz > > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 1:54 AM > > To: Robert Wilton ; Kent Watsen ; > > Andy Bierman ; Netconf > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > > > Hi all, > > > > I would also like to see the implications and consequences of a specific hum > > option to be highlighted very clearly and explicitly. Every option that is available > > to hum on should highlight an expected amount of delay of WGLC created by > > the decision. > > > > This thread's subject is "YangPush now" and that is exactly the point. > > Remodeling takes time. Wrt to number of changes, I would like to encourage > > the minimal viable solution at this point of time (yes, I a can barely believe it > > myself... but it is actually me, who is writing this statement... maybe to some > > this is an indicator). > > > > Viele Gre, > > > > Henk > > > > > > On 07/13/2018 10:50 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could > > > explicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the > > > choices below they think would lead to the work completing most quickly. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote: > > >>> I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions > > >>> (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting > > >>> WGLC or > > >>> modularity) > > >> Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. > > >> > > >> hums now are: > > >> > > >> 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > > >> a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) > > >> b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > > >> > > >> 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > > >> a. SN first, then YP (published sequentially) > > >> b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) > > >> > > >> Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Kent // chair > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Sat Jul 14 05:53:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BDAD130E36 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 05:53:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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d="scan'208";a="423687576" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Jul 2018 12:53:22 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (xch-rtp-011.cisco.com [64.101.220.151]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6ECrM2k023709 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 14 Jul 2018 12:53:22 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 08:53:21 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 08:53:21 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "Alexander Clemm" CC: Netconf Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUG3GlOWjVvAkUrEySfpEQi6CetQ== Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 12:53:21 +0000 Message-ID: <66c12cde357f42f697c94d0a64017095@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB2F625@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> <20180714060148.gv5geiy7gsdhyc3b@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180714060148.gv5geiy7gsdhyc3b@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 12:53:34 -0000 Hi Juergen, The options only apply to three drafts which have been under WGLC: - draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications - draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push - draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications For more context, see the PPT slides for the NETCONF session: https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/blob/master/Subscriptions-NETCONF-= IETF102.pdf=20 Agree that draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif isn't ready. And that there a= re technical issues open there. This is what was being discussed on the th= read earlier this week. Eric > -----Original Message----- > From: Netconf On Behalf Of Juergen > Schoenwaelder > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 2:02 AM > To: Alexander Clemm > Cc: Netconf > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now >=20 > I am confused to which drafts this analysis applies exactly. The work see= ms > to be covered by the following drafts: >=20 > - draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push [56 pages] > - draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications [74 pages] > - draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif [33 pages] > - draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages [23 pages] > - draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications [26 pages] > - draft-ietf-netconf-udp-pub-channel [19 pages] >=20 > I do not think all the 231 pages are 'done', there were technical issues > raised on the list related to configured subscriptions recently, more > specifically draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif. Note that the goal is not= to > minimize edits but to avoid getting stuck on issues during WG last call (= or > the publication queue) on features that may not seem that relevant. It ma= y > also be useful to have a fair assessment of the dependencies of these dra= fts > (or the relevant drafts for the questions) wrt configuration data models = and > their progress. >=20 > /js >=20 > On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 08:44:41PM +0000, Alexander Clemm wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I will unfortunately not be able to attend Monday's meeting (still in > transit), so let me briefly summarize what the options are and their > implications, and which we therefore prefer as authors. > > > > Regarding progressing Dynamic and Configured Together (hum A): > > > > Option A1: Keep them together, as currently defined in the draft. This > option is done & currently defined in the drafts. This will be the faste= st and > is thus preferred. > > > > Option A2: Keep them together, but leave the Netconf transport option > for configured open for now. This requires updates to the Netconf > Notification draft (draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications), but = the > updates should be straightforward and the time delta should still be smal= l. > Once ietf-netconf-server.yang completes, a -bis version of the Netconf > Notification draft can be issued to accommodate configured subscriptions > with call home using netconf server. This option is not preferred but > acceptable. > > > > Option A3: Take out configured subscriptions altogether for now, to > revisit at a later point. Keep only dynamic subscriptions. This option > implies having to refactor the drafts. It will imply further delay and > significant effort to make the updates. The concern is that this will mi= ss the > market window, therefore IMHO this a terrible option. Frankly, given thi= s, I > am not sure that the authors will be willing to invest all that effort in= to > something that will de-facto only diminish value. > > > > Regarding progressing subscribed notification (SN) and YANG-Push (YP) > together (hum B): > > > > Option B1: Keep them together as one cluster. This has been the WG > direction since this stuff was adopted; SN was actually created by breaki= ng > out the generalizable portions from YP at the time. They really belong > together and the business value we are targeting is provided by them > jointly, even if SN can be used on its own. Hence, author preference is = to > keep them together. > > > > Option B2: Separate them out. The concern is that while in theory it > > might not result in further delays, in practice it still breeds the > > risk of doing so. (And we know that the difference between theory and > > practice is that while in theory both are the same, in practice often > > they are not.) > > > > Summary: Authors clearly prefer A1 and B1, although they will accept A2 > and B2 if the WG decides to go there. A3 is a terrible option and a very > clear no go. > > --- Alex > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk > > > Birkholz > > > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 1:54 AM > > > To: Robert Wilton ; Kent Watsen > > > ; Andy Bierman ; > Netconf > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I would also like to see the implications and consequences of a > > > specific hum option to be highlighted very clearly and explicitly. > > > Every option that is available to hum on should highlight an > > > expected amount of delay of WGLC created by the decision. > > > > > > This thread's subject is "YangPush now" and that is exactly the point= . > > > Remodeling takes time. Wrt to number of changes, I would like to > > > encourage the minimal viable solution at this point of time (yes, I > > > a can barely believe it myself... but it is actually me, who is > > > writing this statement... maybe to some this is an indicator). > > > > > > Viele Gr=FC=DFe, > > > > > > Henk > > > > > > > > > On 07/13/2018 10:50 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could > > > > explicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of > > > > the choices below they think would lead to the work completing most > quickly. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > >>> I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured > > > >>> subscriptions (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the > > > >>> sake of expediting WGLC or > > > >>> modularity) > > > >> Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. > > > >> > > > >> hums now are: > > > >> > > > >> =A0 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > > > >> =A0=A0=A0 a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentiall= y) > > > >> =A0=A0=A0 b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel= ) > > > >> > > > >> =A0 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > > > >> =A0=A0=A0 a. SN first, then YP=A0 (published sequentially) > > > >> =A0=A0=A0 b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) > > > >> > > > >> Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your pres= o. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> Kent // chair > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Netconf mailing list > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf From nobody Sat Jul 14 13:27:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7C0130E41 for ; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e1464134-9e8f-42f1-603d-08d5e9c83cda X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Jul 2018 20:27:36.4527 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB4021 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-14_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=655 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807140247 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] closure on dynamic model changes X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 20:27:45 -0000 DQo+IElmIGVycm9ycyBvY2N1ciBpbiB0aGUgY2FzZSB5b3UgZGVzY3JpYmVkLCBLZW50LCBJIHdv dWxkIGV4cGVjdCB0aGUgYmFzZSBORVRDT05GIHByb3RvY29sIHRvIHJhaXNlIHRoZW0uDQoNCkkg ZG9u4oCZdCBiZWxpZXZlIGNhcGFiaWxpdGllcyBjaGFuZ2luZyBpcyBhbiBlcnJvci4gIFRoZSBO Qy9SQyBwcm90b2NvbHMgZG8g4oCccmFpc2XigJ0gdGhlIGV2ZW50LCBpbiB0aGUgZm9ybSBvZiBh IG5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbi4gIFRoaXMgc2VlbXMgYmV0dGVyIHRoYW4gd2FpdGluZyBmb3IgdGhlIGNs aWVudCB0byBzZW5kIGFuIFJQQy4gQWdyZWVkPw0KDQpLZW50 From nobody Sat Jul 14 15:48:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253EC130F4C for ; 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Sun, 15 Jul 2018 00:48:47 +0200 Message-ID: <20180715004847.0ecvu98uskoc4004@webmail.eurecom.fr> Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 00:48:47 +0200 From: Ariel Otilibili Anieli To: Kent Watsen , "Jeffrey Ladouceur (jladouce)" Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" References: <17CA1DAB-73FF-498D-8EA6-5BD090B9F01E@juniper.net> <72E30569-5546-4165-B6EA-A424FB0B3C28@cisco.com> <9DA54FC9-E51F-4CF4-95CD-87BE581CA458@juniper.net>, <20180712174205.dzpjndq9gkwc8080@webmail.eurecom.fr> <074B7635-6FB9-4D1F-9A1C-D2BE1390D872@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <074B7635-6FB9-4D1F-9A1C-D2BE1390D872@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.4) X-Originating-IP: 82.234.168.183 X-Remote-Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; Android 6.0; PLK-L01 Build/HONORPLK-L01) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/67.0.3396.87 Mobile Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] closure on dynamic model changes X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 22:48:52 -0000 Quoting Kent Watsen : > >> If errors occur in the case you described, Kent, I would expect the =20 >> base NETCONF protocol to raise them. > > I don=E2=80=99t believe capabilities changing is an error. The NC/RC =20 > protocols do =E2=80=9Craise=E2=80=9D the event, in the form of a notificat= ion. This =20 > seems better than waiting for the client to send an RPC. Agreed? > Totally agreed. I am wondering; what if, along with a checksum notification change, =20 the servers send also a diff notification change? It would state which module have changed; and, within each module, =20 which list, container or RPC does the change impact. Ariel > Kent ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- This message was sent using EURECOM Webmail: http://webmail.eurecom.fr From nobody Sun Jul 15 05:53:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE92130E33 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 05:53:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kevIhSxQpQ0 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 05:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (trail.lhotka.name [77.48.224.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B920130DC0 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 05:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix, from userid 109) id C92311820CBC; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 14:59:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [172.29.2.111]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1A1C018202E0; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 14:59:55 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Mahesh Jethanandani Cc: "netconf\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <755CE201-4550-487A-B0E9-6F0E6C51F2AE@gmail.com> References: <755CE201-4550-487A-B0E9-6F0E6C51F2AE@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 14:53:31 +0200 Message-ID: <87601gr778.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 12:53:39 -0000 Hi, due to my stupidity, I won't be present at the NETCONF session tomorrow. I wasn't aware that Canada also introduced that nice ETA immigration form and couldn't get it until my plane departed. :-( I was able to rebook my flight and will arrive (hopefully) Monday night. With apologies, Lada Mahesh Jethanandani writes: > WG, > > This draft now is on the agenda for the meeting on Monday, afternoon session #I from 13:30-15:30. > > Lada, you do have your 15 min. > > Mahesh & Kent. > >> On Jul 11, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: >> >> Hi Lada, >> >> I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments below. >> >> So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not RESTCONF needs this functionality or not. I've heard some operators state that they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and hence don't have the need for a server side staging area. Perhaps a good question to ask in Montreal? >> >> The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical solution, and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) >> >> 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging areas (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared lockable candidate datastore. This follows my belief that loosely coupled concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. with shared locking). >> >> 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all. Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying . I.e. your staging datastores should update on a commit operation, just like a commit of updates . is always just updated as a side effect of a write to , and as such is a tangential consideration. >> >> 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as per draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1. The new staging datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit from ietf-datastores:datastore identity. I think that this probably also more closely aligns to restful principals. >> >> 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to when they are committed. I think that clients may also want to see the combined configuration of the current contents of with the delta held in applied. This could be exposed either as (i) a new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-only datastore. A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would be to one of the other two latter options. >> >> 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then should they also be added to NETCONF? If they are added to both then I think that they should be added in the same way, as much as possible, perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive text? In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing similar or equivalent text in two places. >> >> But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly warrants some WG discussion. >> >> Thanks, >> Rob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Netconf mailing list >> Netconf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com > -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Sun Jul 15 06:48:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D6F130DEB for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 06:48:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nic.cz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZMIIGputR3m1 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 06:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [217.31.204.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4093F130DD1 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 06:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from birdie (unknown [IPv6:2a01:5e0:29:ffff:ffc6:c393:cdb9:8db1]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4286860123; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 15:48:18 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1531662498; bh=4zDoif49b8bJZS7hzKn6WXUGEt0wqDbb0758GbGu/IA=; h=From:To:Date; b=Pc8WZbHBgdZoc3Qf/k8evbPKlWkG/nvowA3XKwr8W8jK1AOmlx0tazWel2e0Mav36 qayQHFLu9LAwKg+iWDh+uDuiUWBRg/J+LqZp0y9iD3CamAazhg9o+wKY2Y+k7ziEp+ y9+hX4rwguEtUtLWffweRP/UvpgZku6qjyK1ek50= Message-ID: From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Andy Bierman , Robert Wilton Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 15:48:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> Organization: CZ.NIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.28.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.2 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 13:48:24 -0000 On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > Hi, > > I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF. > In the future, a protocol-independent solution for > concurrent edit operations might be interesting. Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-) > > Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI should be > deprecated > or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full. The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the only catch is that nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see anything in RFC 8040 that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes. BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data. > > Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF. > They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent). They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - the commit/reset operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too. Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained statements like Applications that require more complex transaction capabilities might consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF. Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the present draft was exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting to NETCONF. > Operations are 1-shot and stateless. > > RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described in RFC 6241 > does not work for RESTCONF. My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the comments by Rob and Juergen, I am now inclined to use rather than as the commit target. Then, if happens to be locked (from outside, e.g. NETCONF), then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing to do with sessions. Lada > > Andy > > > > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton > wrote: > > > > On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > > Robert Wilton writes: > > > > > > > Hi Lada, > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > > > > Hi Rob, > > > > > > > > > > thanks for your comments, please see inline. > > > > > > > > > > Robert Wilton writes: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Lada, > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments > > > > > > below. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not > > > > > > RESTCONF > > > > > > needs this functionality or not. I've heard some operators state > > > > > > that > > > > > > they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and > > > > > > hence > > > > > > don't have the need for a server side staging area. Perhaps a good > > > > > > question to ask in Montreal? > > > > > > > > > > > I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are > > > > > applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the > > > > > server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I think > > > > > with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client > > > > > functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain > > > > > browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTCONF > > > > > extended according to my draft. > > > > > > > > > No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a single > > > > client commit. > > > > > > > > I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the > > > > configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request > > > > should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the interaction, > > > > although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on the > > > > client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update > > > > isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. > > > > > > > I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually the > > > data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target > > > config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this > > > is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow. > > > > > This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into > > . Either the config change can be merged without errors and > > validates successfully (via ), or the merge fails, or validation > > fails. If either the merge or validate fails then is not changed, > > the config change is rejected, and the client notified. > > > > > > Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the > > > > expected usages of private candidate datastores. > > > > > > > The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of multiple > > > clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody > > > else may want to propose a client-side solution. > > > > > Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer. I don't think > > that there is anything to standardize here. > > > > > I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable > > > servers and restricted clients, or vice versa. > > > > > > > > > The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical > > > > > > solution, > > > > > > and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging > > > > > > areas > > > > > > (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared > > > > > > lockable > > > > > > candidate datastore. This follows my belief that loosely coupled > > > > > > concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. > > > > > > with > > > > > > shared locking). > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all. > > > > > > Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying > > > > > > . I.e. your staging datastores should update on > > > > > > a > > > > > > commit operation, just like a commit of updates > > > > > > . > > > > > > is always just updated as a side effect of a write to > > > > > > , and as such is a tangential consideration. > > > > > > > > > > > The main reason for using is that the target datastore > > > > > into > > > > > which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all > > > > > times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and > > > > > under > > > > > NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have > > > > > and > > > > > being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this > > > > > simplification. > > > > > > > > > has the configuration supplied by the user before any > > > > template > > > > expansion, or inactive config removal. > > > > is the same configuration data, but after template expansion, > > > > inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations that > > > > the server might do. > > > > > > > > If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config removal, > > > > and any other random config manipulations", then is trivially > > > > the same as . > > > > > > > > Whenever is due to be changed, is also updated at > > > > the same time, and validated. > > > > > > > > Hence is always valid, and by implication, so is , > > > > since you cannot make a change to without also updating, and > > > > validating at the exact same time. I.e. they succeed or fail > > > > together. > > > > > > > > I think that your datastore design works much better with NMDA > > > > if you update instead of . > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but can be writable or not, may be locked and may be > > > invalid. > > > > > Yes, and that is all fine. > > > > > If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of > > > naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same device, I > > > want to avoid their interference as much as possible. > > > > > You can't. Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the same data, they > > need to be sympathetic to each other. > > > > > My idea is that > > > contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at . > > > > > Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture at all. The > > NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configuration > > operations combine at rather than . This is also the > > merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used. > > > > The purpose of is as a mechanism to handle template expansion, > > inactive config, and possibly other default server config. It isn't meant > > to be another configuration merge point. > > > > > > > > 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think > > > > > > that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients > > > > > > interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as > > > > > > per > > > > > > draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1. The new staging > > > > > > datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit > > > > > > from > > > > > > ietf-datastores:datastore identity. I think that this probably also > > > > > > more closely aligns to restful principals. > > > > > > > > > > > Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore really > > > > > is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in > > > > > particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging > > > > > datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the > > > > > client could also interact with {+restconf}/data. > > > > > > > > > The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired* > > > > configuration with the *actual* operational state. This combination > > > > cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady > > > > state. > > > > > > > > I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I think > > > > that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via > > > > explicit datastores. > > > > > > > If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. For > > > the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040 > > > can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can > > > be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts. > > > > > > > > > E.g. > > > > (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the > > > > configuration, then it just writes to . > > > > (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it does > > > > it via and a commit to . From a system perspective > > > > this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. > > > > (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writes > > > > to and then commits configuration to . > > > > (4) If can be locked, then attempts by other clients to commit > > > > to when it is locked must fail. > > > > > > > This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF users into > > > learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid. > > > > > It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't implement locking > > of shared candidate. > > > > I prefer explicit behavior. > > > > E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the contents of a > > shared datastore makes the two protocols work together simpler. > > More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and potentially very > > bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the NETCONF client > > isn't employing locking). > > > > > > > > 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the > > > > > > proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to > > > > > > > > > > > > when they are committed. I think that clients may also want to see > > > > > > the > > > > > > combined configuration of the current contents of with the > > > > > > delta held in applied. This could be exposed either as > > > > > > (i) a > > > > > > new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read- > > > > > > only > > > > > > datastore. A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't > > > > > > support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would > > > > > > be > > > > > > to one of the other two latter options. > > > > > > > > > > > Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a commit? > > > > > This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation > > > > > it > > > > > is pretty trivial. > > > > > > > > > let me ask two different question first: > > > > > > > > (1) If I call GET on then do I see just what I have changed > > > > (and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I see > > > > all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in? > > > > > > > After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes > > > (conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of . If you > > > do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo > > > NACM). However, you don't see any changes that have been done to > > > in the mean time. > > > > > OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta against > > the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with the > > latest baseline version. Obviously, there would need to be a mechanism to > > report merge conflicts. > > > > > > (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private > > > > changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the > > > > point in time that was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. it > > > > always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running? > > > > > > > In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when > > > was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it would > > > be possible to let track the changes in intended as long as > > > the user doesn't start editing it. > > > > > > > > > 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then > > > > > > should they also be added to NETCONF? If they are added to both > > > > > > then I > > > > > > think that they should be added in the same way, as much as > > > > > > possible, > > > > > > perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive > > > > > > text? In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC > > > > > > that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the > > > > > > individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing > > > > > > similar > > > > > > or equivalent text in two places. > > > > > > > > > > > But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? One > > > > > possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared > > > > > candidates > > > > > have known problems. > > > > > > > > > How do you do private candidate in NETCONF? I thought that it was only > > > > shared candidate that had been standardized. > > > > > > > RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1: > > > > > > The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple sessions. > > > Unless a client has specific information that the candidate > > > configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other sessions are > > > able to modify the candidate configuration at the same time. > > > > > This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is generally regarded > > as being shared, not private. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > > Lada > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Lada > > > > > > > > > > > But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly > > > > > > warrants some WG discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > -- 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Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-wu-netconf-restconf-factory-restore-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUDgohYkKCob3+QEeCTKJnrpl8VqR0/o0ggADy1gCAANpigIABDVeAgADSgACAAA2OgIAAIkwAgANZR4CAAAHOAIAAGkMAgAABaACAACN2gIAAA/eAgACapoCAAB2ZgIATStgA Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 13:59:19 +0000 Message-ID: <353E5B56-C1DB-4ABB-8363-B1D35D1AC0F0@cisco.com> References: <87a7rfjdcx.fsf@nic.cz> <2A66E046-CE29-42B5-A60C-1313357378DE@juniper.net> <20180630090808.5g232ydinkbsnddg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702122254.hrws4cneranwwm3w@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180702140156.m7mlohgzzfe3nr4l@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC846F@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBC846F@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.b.0.180311 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 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<7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 07:55:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ladislav Lhotka Cc: Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000094a47e05710ae61b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 14:55:22 -0000 --00000000000094a47e05710ae61b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 6:48 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF. > > In the future, a protocol-independent solution for > > concurrent edit operations might be interesting. > > Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-) > > Your draft ignores the concurrency problem. E.G: At time T0, config is /foo Client1 and Client2 both start editing At T1, Client1 merges /foo/A (config is /foo/A) At T2, Client2 replaces /foo with /foo/B At this point all of edits from Client1 are lost. Imagine if git worked this way :-( The edit from Client2 has to be rejected instead of accepted. A clever system will allow Client2 to resync to time T1 and then try the commit again > > > Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI should be > > deprecated > > or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full. > > The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the only catch is > that > nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see anything in RFC > 8040 > that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes. > > BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data. > > > > > Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF. > > They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent). > > They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - the > commit/reset > operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too. > > Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained statements like > > Applications that require more complex transaction capabilities might > consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF. > > Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the present draft > was > exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting to NETCONF. > > yes because NETCONF has sessions and locking and lock management built-in to session management > > Operations are 1-shot and stateless. > > > > RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described in > RFC 6241 > > does not work for RESTCONF. > > My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the comments by Rob and > Juergen, I am now inclined to use rather than as the > commit > target. Then, if happens to be locked (from outside, e.g. > NETCONF), > then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing to do with > sessions. > > Correct. Your draft introduces concurrent candidate datastores for RESTCONF only. Private staging areas do not work well if simplistic "last one wins" commits are done. I am not sure RESTCONF needs any scratchpad datastore. This was created to assist human CLI datastore editing in NETCONF. RESTCONF has YANG Patch to easily collect edits to apply all at once. RESTCONF for NMDA allows access to the real candidate datastore. The /restconf/operations resource allows RESTCONF access to any YANG-defined RPC (which includes ietf-netconf RPCs). I don't see any problem to solve in order to make RESTCONF be more like NETCONF. Lada > > Andy > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton > > wrote: > > > > > > On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > > > Robert Wilton writes: > > > > > > > > > Hi Lada, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > > > > > Hi Rob, > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks for your comments, please see inline. > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert Wilton writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Lada, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments > > > > > > > below. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not > > > > > > > RESTCONF > > > > > > > needs this functionality or not. I've heard some operators > state > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, > and > > > > > > > hence > > > > > > > don't have the need for a server side staging area. Perhaps a > good > > > > > > > question to ask in Montreal? > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes > are > > > > > > applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to > the > > > > > > server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I > think > > > > > > with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client > > > > > > functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain > > > > > > browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with > RESTCONF > > > > > > extended according to my draft. > > > > > > > > > > > No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a > single > > > > > client commit. > > > > > > > > > > I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the > > > > > configuration change (in which case merging it into a single > request > > > > > should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the > interaction, > > > > > although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer > on the > > > > > client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update > > > > > isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. > > > > > > > > > I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually > the > > > > data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target > > > > config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - > this > > > > is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow. > > > > > > > This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into > > > . Either the config change can be merged without errors and > > > validates successfully (via ), or the merge fails, or > validation > > > fails. If either the merge or validate fails then is not > changed, > > > the config change is rejected, and the client notified. > > > > > > > > Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the > > > > > expected usages of private candidate datastores. > > > > > > > > > The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of > multiple > > > > clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, > somebody > > > > else may want to propose a client-side solution. > > > > > > > Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer. I don't > think > > > that there is anything to standardize here. > > > > > > > I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable > > > > servers and restricted clients, or vice versa. > > > > > > > > > > > The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical > > > > > > > solution, > > > > > > > and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session > staging > > > > > > > areas > > > > > > > (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared > > > > > > > lockable > > > > > > > candidate datastore. This follows my belief that loosely > coupled > > > > > > > concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones > (e.g. > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > shared locking). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention > at all. > > > > > > > Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be > saying > > > > > > > . I.e. your staging datastores should update > on > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > commit operation, just like a commit of updates > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > is always just updated as a side effect of a write > to > > > > > > > , and as such is a tangential consideration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The main reason for using is that the target > datastore > > > > > > into > > > > > > which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all > > > > > > times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and > > > > > > under > > > > > > NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have > > > > > > > and > > > > > > being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this > > > > > > simplification. > > > > > > > > > > > has the configuration supplied by the user before any > > > > > template > > > > > expansion, or inactive config removal. > > > > > is the same configuration data, but after template > expansion, > > > > > inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations > that > > > > > the server might do. > > > > > > > > > > If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config > removal, > > > > > and any other random config manipulations", then is > trivially > > > > > the same as . > > > > > > > > > > Whenever is due to be changed, is also > updated at > > > > > the same time, and validated. > > > > > > > > > > Hence is always valid, and by implication, so is > , > > > > > since you cannot make a change to without also updating, > and > > > > > validating at the exact same time. I.e. they succeed > or fail > > > > > together. > > > > > > > > > > I think that your datastore design works much better > with NMDA > > > > > if you update instead of . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but can be writable or not, may be locked and may be > > > > invalid. > > > > > > > Yes, and that is all fine. > > > > > > > If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of > > > > naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same > device, I > > > > want to avoid their interference as much as possible. > > > > > > > You can't. Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the same > data, they > > > need to be sympathetic to each other. > > > > > > > My idea is that > > > > contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at . > > > > > > > Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture at > all. The > > > NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configuration > > > operations combine at rather than . This is also > the > > > merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used. > > > > > > The purpose of is as a mechanism to handle template > expansion, > > > inactive config, and possibly other default server config. It isn't > meant > > > to be another configuration merge point. > > > > > > > > > > 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I > think > > > > > > > that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have > clients > > > > > > > interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, > as > > > > > > > per > > > > > > > draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1. The new > staging > > > > > > > datastore identity should also be defined in your module to > inherit > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > ietf-datastores:datastore identity. I think that this > probably also > > > > > > > more closely aligns to restful principals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore > really > > > > > > is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in > > > > > > particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging > > > > > > datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether > the > > > > > > client could also interact with {+restconf}/data. > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the > *desired* > > > > > configuration with the *actual* operational state. This > combination > > > > > cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady > > > > > state. > > > > > > > > > > I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I > think > > > > > that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via > > > > > explicit datastores. > > > > > > > > > If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. > For > > > > the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040 > > > > can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations > can > > > > be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts. > > > > > > > > > > > > E.g. > > > > > (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the > > > > > configuration, then it just writes to . > > > > > (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then > it does > > > > > it via and a commit to . From a system > perspective > > > > > this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. > > > > > (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client > writes > > > > > to and then commits configuration to . > > > > > (4) If can be locked, then attempts by other clients to > commit > > > > > to when it is locked must fail. > > > > > > > > > This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF users > into > > > > learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid. > > > > > > > It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't implement > locking > > > of shared candidate. > > > > > > I prefer explicit behavior. > > > > > > E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the > contents of a > > > shared datastore makes the two protocols work together > simpler. > > > More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and potentially > very > > > bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the NETCONF > client > > > isn't employing locking). > > > > > > > > > > 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only > contains the > > > > > > > proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > when they are committed. I think that clients may also want > to see > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > combined configuration of the current contents of > with the > > > > > > > delta held in applied. This could be exposed either > as > > > > > > > (i) a > > > > > > > new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another > read- > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > datastore. A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably > wouldn't > > > > > > > support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference > would > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > to one of the other two latter options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a > commit? > > > > > > This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our > implementation > > > > > > it > > > > > > is pretty trivial. > > > > > > > > > > > let me ask two different question first: > > > > > > > > > > (1) If I call GET on then do I see just what I have > changed > > > > > (and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do > I see > > > > > all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in? > > > > > > > > > After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes > > > > (conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of . If > you > > > > do some changes, you see them along with the other config data > (modulo > > > > NACM). However, you don't see any changes that have been done to > > > > in the mean time. > > > > > > > OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta > against > > > the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with > the > > > latest baseline version. Obviously, there would need to be a > mechanism to > > > report merge conflicts. > > > > > > > > (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private > > > > > changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the > > > > > point in time that was initialized? Or does it float, > i.e. it > > > > > always updates to the latest committed base configuration in > running? > > > > > > > > > In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when > > > > was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it > would > > > > be possible to let track the changes in intended as long as > > > > the user doesn't start editing it. > > > > > > > > > > > 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to > RESTCONF, then > > > > > > > should they also be added to NETCONF? If they are added to > both > > > > > > > then I > > > > > > > think that they should be added in the same way, as much as > > > > > > > possible, > > > > > > > perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save > repetitive > > > > > > > text? In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing > a RFC > > > > > > > that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF > that the > > > > > > > individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing > > > > > > > similar > > > > > > > or equivalent text in two places. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? > One > > > > > > possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared > > > > > > candidates > > > > > > have known problems. > > > > > > > > > > > How do you do private candidate in NETCONF? I thought that it > was only > > > > > shared candidate that had been standardized. > > > > > > > > > RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1: > > > > > > > > The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple > sessions. > > > > Unless a client has specific information that the candidate > > > > configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other sessions > are > > > > able to modify the candidate configuration at the same time. > > > > > > > This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is generally > regarded > > > as being shared, not private. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > Lada > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Lada > > > > > > > > > > > > > But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and > certainly > > > > > > > warrants some WG discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Netconf mailing list > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > -- > Ladislav Lhotka > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > --00000000000094a47e05710ae61b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 6:48 AM, Ladislav Lhotka <= lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -= 0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF.
> In the future, a protocol-independent solution for
> concurrent edit operations might be interesting.

Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-)


Your draft ignores the concurrency pro= blem. E.G:

At time T0, config is /foo
Cl= ient1 and Client2 both start editing

At T1, Client= 1 merges /foo/A (config is /foo/A)

At T2, Clie= nt2 replaces /foo with /foo/B

At this point all of= edits from Client1 are lost.
Imagine if git worked this way :-(<= /div>

The edit from Client2 has to be rejected instead o= f accepted.
A clever system will allow Client2 to resync to time = T1 and then try the commit again


>
> Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI= should be
> deprecated
> or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full.

The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the only catch is = that
nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see anything in RFC= 8040
that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes.

BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data.

>
> Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF.
> They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent).

They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - the commit/res= et
operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too.

Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained statements like
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Applications that require more complex transaction capabilitie= s might
=C2=A0 =C2=A0consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF.

Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the present draft w= as
exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting to NETCONF.<= br>

yes because NETCONF has sessions and l= ocking and lock management built-in to
session management
=C2=A0
> Operations are 1-shot and stateless.
>
> RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described in = RFC 6241
> does not work for RESTCONF.

My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the comments by Rob and<= br> Juergen, I am now inclined to use <running> rather than <intended&= gt; as the commit
target. Then, if <running> happens to be locked (from outside, e.g. N= ETCONF),
then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing to do with sessions.


Correct. Your draft introduces concurr= ent candidate datastores for RESTCONF only.
Private staging areas= do not work well if simplistic "last one wins" commits are done.=
I am not sure RESTCONF needs any scratchpad datastore. This was = created
to assist human CLI datastore editing in NETCONF.=C2=A0 R= ESTCONF has YANG Patch
to easily collect edits to apply all at on= ce.

RESTCONF for NMDA allows access to the real ca= ndidate datastore.
The /restconf/operations resource allows RESTC= ONF access to any YANG-defined RPC
(which includes ietf-netconf R= PCs). =C2=A0 I don't see any problem to solve in order
to mak= e RESTCONF be more like NETCONF.


Lada


Andy
=C2=A0
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton
> <rwilton=3D40cisco.co= m@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
> > > Robert Wilton <rwilt= on@cisco.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > Hi Lada,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
> > > > > Hi Rob,
> > > > >
> > > > > thanks for your comments, please see inline.
> > > > >
> > > > > Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Lada,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've had a read of this draft, and have p= rovided some comments
> > > > > > below.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, my top level comment is that I don't = know whether or not
> > > > > > RESTCONF
> > > > > > needs this functionality or not.=C2=A0 I'= ve heard some operators state
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > they think that clients can just construct an= "atomic" change, and
> > > > > > hence
> > > > > > don't have the need for a server side sta= ging area.=C2=A0 Perhaps a good
> > > > > > question to ask in Montreal?
> > > > > >
> > > > >=C2=A0 I think what you mean is an analogy to git, = where all changes are
> > > > > applied on the client's side and then new comm= its are pushed to the
> > > > > server. However, git was designed for this mode of= operation - I think
> > > > > with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And= also, the client
> > > > > functionality would be probably difficult to imple= ment in a plain
> > > > > browser whereas browser-based clients can be easil= y used with RESTCONF
> > > > > extended according to my draft.
> > > > >
> > > >=C2=A0 No, I wasn't thinking that they would be sepa= rate commits, but a single
> > > > client commit.
> > > >
> > > > I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constr= ucting the
> > > > configuration change (in which case merging it into a s= ingle request
> > > > should be plausibly straight forward), or human's d= oing the interaction,
> > > > although even then I still wonder whether creating an e= dit buffer on the
> > > > client side, and then pushing that to the server as a s= ingle update
> > > > isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm.
> > > >
> > >=C2=A0 I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but= eventually the
> > > data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that t= he target
> > > config datastore has changed in the mean time by another cli= ent - this
> > > is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow.
> > >
> >=C2=A0 This is resolved at the time that any config change is merg= ed into
> > <running>.=C2=A0 Either the config change can be merged wit= hout errors and
> > validates successfully (via <intended>), or the merge fails= , or validation
> > fails.=C2=A0 If either the merge or validate fails then <runni= ng> is not changed,
> > the config change is rejected, and the client notified.
> >
> > > > Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains= some of the
> > > > expected usages of private candidate datastores.
> > > >
> > >=C2=A0 The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W a= ccess of multiple
> > > clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side= , somebody
> > > else may want to propose a client-side solution.
> > >
> >=C2=A0 Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer.= =C2=A0 I don't think
> > that there is anything to standardize here.
> >
> > > I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capabl= e
> > > servers and restricted clients, or vice versa.
> > >
> > > > > > The rest of my comments below, apply to the p= roposed technical
> > > > > > solution,
> > > > > > and obviously only apply if this is a needed = enhancement. :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of= per session staging
> > > > > > areas
> > > > > > (aka private candidates) described in this dr= aft over a shared
> > > > > > lockable
> > > > > > candidate datastore.=C2=A0 This follows my be= lief that loosely coupled
> > > > > > concurrent systems are more robust than tight= ly coupled ones (e.g.
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > shared locking).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2) I don't think that this draft needs to= mention <intended> at all.
> > > > > > Instead, everywhere you mention <intended&= gt; then you should be saying
> > > > > > <running>.=C2=A0 I.e. your staging data= stores should update <running> on
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > commit operation, just like a commit of <c= andidate> updates
> > > > > > <running>.
> > > > > > <intended> is always just updated as a = side effect of a write to
> > > > > > <running>, and as such is a tangential = consideration.
> > > > > >
> > > > >=C2=A0 The main reason for using <intended> i= s that the target datastore
> > > > > into
> > > > > which staging datastores are merged has to be vali= d at all
> > > > > times. <running> has somewhat fuzzy semantic= s both in NETCONF and
> > > > > under
> > > > > NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially= we have <running>
> > > > > and
> > > > > <intended> being the same. NMDA explicitly p= ermits this
> > > > > simplification.
> > > > >
> > > >=C2=A0 <running> has the configuration supplied by= the user before any
> > > > template
> > > > expansion, or inactive config removal.
> > > > <intended> is the same configuration data, but af= ter template expansion,
> > > > inactive config removal, and any other random config ma= nipulations that
> > > > the server might do.
> > > >
> > > > If the device doesn't do "template expansion, = inactive config removal,
> > > > and any other random config manipulations", then &= lt;intended> is trivially
> > > > the same as <running>.
> > > >
> > > > Whenever <running> is due to be changed, <inte= nded> is also updated at
> > > > the same time, and validated.
> > > >
> > > > Hence <intended> is always valid, and by implicat= ion, so is <running>,
> > > > since you cannot make a change to <running> witho= ut also updating, and
> > > > validating <intended> at the exact same time.=C2= =A0 I.e. they succeed or fail
> > > > together.
> > > >
> > > > I think that your <staging> datastore design work= s much better with NMDA
> > > > if you update <running> instead of <intended&g= t;.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >=C2=A0 Yes, but <running> can be writable or not, may b= e locked and may be
> > > invalid.
> > >
> >=C2=A0 Yes, and that is all fine.
> >
> > > If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a = matter of
> > > naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the sa= me device, I
> > > want to avoid their interference as much as possible.
> > >
> >=C2=A0 You can't.=C2=A0 Ultimately there are two mechanisms wr= iting the same data, they
> > need to be sympathetic to each other.
> >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0My idea is that
> > > contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at <int= ended>.
> > >
> >=C2=A0 Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA archit= ecture at all.=C2=A0 The
> > NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configurat= ion
> > operations combine at <running> rather than <intended>= ;.=C2=A0 This is also the
> > merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used.<= br> > >
> > The purpose of <intended> is as a mechanism to handle templ= ate expansion,
> > inactive config, and possibly other default server config.=C2=A0 = It isn't meant
> > to be another configuration merge point.
> >
> > > > > > 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+= restconf}/data, I think
> > > > > > that it would be much better to require NMDA = and then have clients
> > > > > > interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as
> > > > > > per
> > > > > > draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 sect= ion 3.1.=C2=A0 The new staging
> > > > > > datastore identity should also be defined in = your module to inherit
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > ietf-datastores:datastore identity.=C2=A0 I t= hink that this probably also
> > > > > > more closely aligns to restful principals. > > > > > >
> > > > >=C2=A0 Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the &q= uot;unified" datastore really
> > > > > is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and expl= icit and, in
> > > > > particular, permit configuration edits only via th= e staging
> > > > > datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear t= o me whether the
> > > > > client could also interact with {+restconf}/data.<= br> > > > > >
> > > >=C2=A0 The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is comb= ines the *desired*
> > > > configuration with the *actual* operational state.=C2= =A0 This combination
> > > > cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn&#= 39;t in a steady
> > > > state.
> > > >
> > > > I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restcon= f}/data, I think
> > > > that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by inter= acting via
> > > > explicit datastores.
> > > >
> > >=C2=A0 If this is done, then it would make sense to do what y= ou suggest. For
> > > the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting= RFC 8040
> > > can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset oper= ations can
> > > be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts.
> > >
> >=C2=A0
> > > > E.g.
> > > > (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update= to the
> > > > configuration, then it just writes to <running>.<= br> > > > > (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configura= tion then it does
> > > > it via <staging> and a commit to <running>.= =C2=A0 From a system perspective
> > > > this is pretty much the same as (1) any way.
> > > > (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then = a client writes
> > > > to <candidate> and then commits configuration to = <running>.
> > > > (4) If <running> can be locked, then attempts by = other clients to commit
> > > > to <running> when it is locked must fail.
> > > >
> > >=C2=A0 This is all very complicated, I don't want to forc= e RESTCONF users into
> > > learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid.
> > >
> >=C2=A0 It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn'= ;t implement locking
> > of shared candidate.
> >
> > I prefer explicit behavior.
> >
> > E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing th= e contents of a
> > shared <candidate> datastore makes the two protocols work t= ogether simpler.
> > More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and potent= ially very
> > bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the NET= CONF client
> > isn't employing locking).
> >
> > > > > > 4) So, I think that the <staging> datas= tore itself only contains the
> > > > > > proposed changes (additions, modifications, a= nd deletes) to
> > > > > > <running>
> > > > > > when they are committed.=C2=A0 I think that c= lients may also want to see
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > combined configuration of the current content= s of <running> with the
> > > > > > delta held in <staging> applied.=C2=A0 = This could be exposed either as
> > > > > > (i) a
> > > > > > new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or = (iii) As another read-
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > datastore.=C2=A0 A new RPC has the disadvanta= ge that it probably wouldn't
> > > > > > support all the query parameters, so my insti= nctive preference would
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > to one of the other two latter options.
> > > > > >
> > > > >=C2=A0 Do you mean to be able to see the result of = a "dry run" of a commit?
> > > > > This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in = our implementation
> > > > > it
> > > > > is pretty trivial.
> > > > >
> > > >=C2=A0 let me ask two different question first:
> > > >
> > > > (1) If I call GET on <staging> then do I see just= what I have changed
> > > > (and explicitly don't see anything that I haven'= ;t changed), or do I see
> > > > all of the base configuration with my private changes m= erged in?
> > > >
> > >=C2=A0 After you do commit or reset, your staging repository = becomes
> > > (conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of <in= tended>. If you
> > > do some changes, you see them along with the other config da= ta (modulo
> > > NACM).=C2=A0 However, you don't see any changes that hav= e been done to
> > > <intended> in the mean time.
> > >
> >=C2=A0 OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the = delta against
> > the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge = with the
> > latest baseline version.=C2=A0 Obviously, there would need to be = a mechanism to
> > report merge conflicts.
> >
> > > > (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configurati= on + private
> > > > changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fi= xed from the
> > > > point in time that <staging> was initialized? Or = does it float, i.e. it
> > > > always updates to the latest committed base configurati= on in running?
> > > >
> > >=C2=A0 In our implementation, it is the data from the point o= f time when
> > > <staging> was last initialized (after commit or reset)= . I think it would
> > > be possible to let <staging> track the changes in inte= nded as long as
> > > the user doesn't start editing it.
> > >
> > > > > > 5) If private candidate datastores are being = added to RESTCONF, then
> > > > > > should they also be added to NETCONF?=C2=A0 I= f they are added to both
> > > > > > then I
> > > > > > think that they should be added in the same w= ay, as much as
> > > > > > possible,
> > > > > > perhaps both could be updated in a single dra= ft to save repetitive
> > > > > > text?=C2=A0 In general, I like (Kent's?) = idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC
> > > > > > that describes all the common parts of NETCON= F and RESTCONF that the
> > > > > > individual protocol docs can then reference r= ather than writing
> > > > > > similar
> > > > > > or equivalent text in two places.
> > > > > >
> > > > >=C2=A0 But private candidates are already an option= in NETCONF, right? One
> > > > > possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, b= ecause shared
> > > > > candidates
> > > > > have known problems.
> > > > >
> > > >=C2=A0 How do you do private candidate in NETCONF?=C2=A0= I thought that it was only
> > > > shared candidate that had been standardized.
> > > >
> > >=C2=A0 RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1:
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The candidate configuration can be shared= among multiple sessions.
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Unless a client has specific information = that the candidate
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configuration is not shared, it MUST assu= me that other sessions are
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0able to modify the candidate configuratio= n at the same time.
> > >
> >=C2=A0 This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore i= s generally regarded
> > as being shared, not private.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > > Lada
> > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Rob
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Lada
> > > > >
> > > > > > But otherwise, I think that it is an interest= ing idea, and certainly
> > > > > > warrants some WG discussion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Rob
> > > > > >
> >=C2=A0
> > _______________________________________________
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Ladislav Lhotka
Head, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67

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Sun, 15 Jul 2018 19:29:34 +0000 To: Kent Watsen , Alexander Clemm , Henk Birkholz , Andy Bierman , Robert Wilton CC: Netconf References: <20180708100310.gn3xaol66f7c7lo5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.180552.1582913595227099806.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180708175359.mdcjgvddb453e2fc@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180708.202727.1096638437748786994.mbj@tail-f.com> <6d12e0fb-7bcc-8533-f783-f4d5fb4b0ce2@ericsson.com> <683740ff-2bb1-c702-6cd8-ea2eb4bf733a@cisco.com> <2590ad5e-26cd-6955-fb3f-677a05035606@sit.fraunhofer.de> <82693DB7-91C7-4172-A3CE-FDA3A638E191@juniper.net> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB2F27E@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5792CF70-9842-41C0-A286-64C4B4B27455@juniper.net> From: Balazs Lengyel Message-ID: <9a3d42dc-38a5-ce8c-38c6-a189ba43361c@ericsson.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 15:29:28 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5792CF70-9842-41C0-A286-64C4B4B27455@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; 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If we are thinking about focused, strongly filtered subscriptions, many will be needed. I would just push configured subscriptions into phase-2. AFAIK there are no problems with the rest. regards Balazs On 7/12/2018 5:37 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > Hi Alex, > > Addressing your second point first, as you say, we're too far down the road to consider YP w/o SN. I think Andy was just reflecting how things could've been different if we turned back time. > > Regarding your first point, I agree that the delta may not be much, but YP is also a large document (56 pages) and, if only to help better focus the WG, the chairs will probably run the LCs on these two drafts sequentially anyway. Just speaking for myself, I haven't reviewed YP seriously yet, as I've been waiting for the dust to settle on the SN layer first. In theory, my review should go easy, since YP builds on top of SN (the harder to define layer) and also because YP has been improved by others already, but that's all part of the unknown behind hum #2. Makes sense? > > Kent > > > ===== original message ===== > > On 2): not sure I understand that particular hum; I don't see what would be gained by separating them. YP builds on SN but it is ready. If the WG decides to refactor SN to move configured subscriptions out, sure, YP needs to be updated to make sure this is reflected, but this should be straightforward. If separating YP and SN would accelerate them (or at least one of them), sure, but I am not clear why this would be the case. > > To the question on putting YP out without SN: this is a well-intended suggestion even if it seems a bit ironic given SN was originally created by taking it out as a generalizable piece from YP that would be useful for notifications other than push updates per decision of the WG. Changing YP now to become a self-contained piece would mean reverting on this; I am not convinced it is a good idea to do so this late in the game and would rather have us see this through as we had planned. > > --- Alex > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kent Watsen >> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 11:48 AM >> To: Henk Birkholz ; Andy Bierman >> ; Robert Wilton >> >> Cc: Netconf >> Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now >> >> >>> I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions >>> (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting >>> WGLC or >>> modularity) >> Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. >> >> hums now are: >> >> 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions >> a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) >> b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) >> >> 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push >> a. SN first, then YP (published sequentially) >> b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) >> >> Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. >> >> Thanks, >> Kent // chair >> > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > -- Balazs Lengyel Ericsson Hungary Ltd. Senior Specialist Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com From nobody Sun Jul 15 13:12:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BE7130E6A for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 13:12:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AcxJffx5XIgf for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 13:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com 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Sun, 15 Jul 2018 13:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6426C130DDC for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 13:29:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=17146; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531686580; x=1532896180; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/I7gh2lkpg1ebDVvVw2qAX242NEzfY3YR64SR5Cn11c=; b=ANX/A+MXUDs6nar2MiwjDRlbWrGIHvv3OzWNfupCpE0hKtf2UqGRM9QC Ad0lllQ/C+xWfOgv4AmltZUyPFRFmrPokwWFQ9M7NbaNh8NTvUU3mnvKZ UYKgMEciPcu9e/hDzyhjJqPqKInRunj3oebVDnsoSbog1p3lJ8RX2jYMO A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ApAgBdrUtb/xbLJq1TAQgZAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBBwEBAQEBhCxtEiiDe4hjjTksdZRYgWYLGAuEA0YCgnA3FQECAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?CAQECbRwMhTYBAQEBAgEBASEPAQU1AQYFBQsLEgYCAiYCAiciDgYBDAYCAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?XgwUBgXcID6hmgS6EW4VdBYELiU4/gREngjU1gxkBAQKBNAUOAYMXglUCh0Q?= =?us-ascii?q?PMYV+i1oJjyEGgUOEEYJIJYUkh32EQoVVgVcigVIzGggbFTuCaYsVhT0dIzA?= =?us-ascii?q?Big4rghsBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,358,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="5193895" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Jul 2018 20:29:37 +0000 Received: from [10.61.227.226] ([10.61.227.226]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6FKTamm013422; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 20:29:37 GMT To: Ladislav Lhotka , Andy Bierman Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 16:29:36 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 20:29:44 -0000 Hi Lada, On 15/07/2018 09:48, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF. >> In the future, a protocol-independent solution for >> concurrent edit operations might be interesting. > Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-) > >> Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI should be >> deprecated >> or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full. > The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the only catch is that > nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see anything in RFC 8040 > that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes. > > BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data. My opposition to {+restconf}/data is that works nicely with operational state.  I.e. it has the same issues as NETCONF operation, which is why was introduced in the NETCONF NMDA draft. Defining a version of {+restconf}/data that abstracts and hides , commits, updating startup is fine, and we discussed this as option as part of NMDA. However, I still regard automatically committing the contents of from a RESTCONF operation as very risky behaviour. > > >> Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF. >> They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent). > They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - the commit/reset > operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too. > > Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained statements like > > Applications that require more complex transaction capabilities might > consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF. > > Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the present draft was > exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting to NETCONF. I would like RESTCONF to be a fully viable alternative to NETCONF. Particularly because it have easily handle alternative encodings. > >> Operations are 1-shot and stateless. >> >> RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described in RFC 6241 >> does not work for RESTCONF. This point that Andy raised concerns me.  If RESTCONF has no sessions that how does a datastore work? > My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the comments by Rob and > Juergen, I am now inclined to use rather than as the commit > target. Then, if happens to be locked (from outside, e.g. NETCONF), > then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing to do with > sessions. Note that in my previous comments, I wasn't saying that RESTCONF has to support , or , but I was trying to explain how private candidate datastores could inter-operate with them if they were supported. Thanks, Rob > > Lada > >> Andy >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton >> wrote: >>> On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>>> Robert Wilton writes: >>>> >>>>> Hi Lada, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>>>>> Hi Rob, >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks for your comments, please see inline. >>>>>> >>>>>> Robert Wilton writes: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Lada, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments >>>>>>> below. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not >>>>>>> RESTCONF >>>>>>> needs this functionality or not. I've heard some operators state >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and >>>>>>> hence >>>>>>> don't have the need for a server side staging area. Perhaps a good >>>>>>> question to ask in Montreal? >>>>>>> >>>>>> I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are >>>>>> applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the >>>>>> server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I think >>>>>> with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client >>>>>> functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain >>>>>> browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTCONF >>>>>> extended according to my draft. >>>>>> >>>>> No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a single >>>>> client commit. >>>>> >>>>> I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the >>>>> configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request >>>>> should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the interaction, >>>>> although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on the >>>>> client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update >>>>> isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. >>>>> >>>> I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually the >>>> data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target >>>> config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this >>>> is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow. >>>> >>> This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into >>> . Either the config change can be merged without errors and >>> validates successfully (via ), or the merge fails, or validation >>> fails. If either the merge or validate fails then is not changed, >>> the config change is rejected, and the client notified. >>> >>>>> Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the >>>>> expected usages of private candidate datastores. >>>>> >>>> The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of multiple >>>> clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody >>>> else may want to propose a client-side solution. >>>> >>> Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer. I don't think >>> that there is anything to standardize here. >>> >>>> I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable >>>> servers and restricted clients, or vice versa. >>>> >>>>>>> The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical >>>>>>> solution, >>>>>>> and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging >>>>>>> areas >>>>>>> (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared >>>>>>> lockable >>>>>>> candidate datastore. This follows my belief that loosely coupled >>>>>>> concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> shared locking). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all. >>>>>>> Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying >>>>>>> . I.e. your staging datastores should update on >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> commit operation, just like a commit of updates >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to >>>>>>> , and as such is a tangential consideration. >>>>>>> >>>>>> The main reason for using is that the target datastore >>>>>> into >>>>>> which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all >>>>>> times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and >>>>>> under >>>>>> NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have >>>>>> and >>>>>> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this >>>>>> simplification. >>>>>> >>>>> has the configuration supplied by the user before any >>>>> template >>>>> expansion, or inactive config removal. >>>>> is the same configuration data, but after template expansion, >>>>> inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations that >>>>> the server might do. >>>>> >>>>> If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config removal, >>>>> and any other random config manipulations", then is trivially >>>>> the same as . >>>>> >>>>> Whenever is due to be changed, is also updated at >>>>> the same time, and validated. >>>>> >>>>> Hence is always valid, and by implication, so is , >>>>> since you cannot make a change to without also updating, and >>>>> validating at the exact same time. I.e. they succeed or fail >>>>> together. >>>>> >>>>> I think that your datastore design works much better with NMDA >>>>> if you update instead of . >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Yes, but can be writable or not, may be locked and may be >>>> invalid. >>>> >>> Yes, and that is all fine. >>> >>>> If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of >>>> naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same device, I >>>> want to avoid their interference as much as possible. >>>> >>> You can't. Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the same data, they >>> need to be sympathetic to each other. >>> >>>> My idea is that >>>> contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at . >>>> >>> Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture at all. The >>> NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configuration >>> operations combine at rather than . This is also the >>> merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used. >>> >>> The purpose of is as a mechanism to handle template expansion, >>> inactive config, and possibly other default server config. It isn't meant >>> to be another configuration merge point. >>> >>>>>>> 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think >>>>>>> that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients >>>>>>> interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as >>>>>>> per >>>>>>> draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1. The new staging >>>>>>> datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> ietf-datastores:datastore identity. I think that this probably also >>>>>>> more closely aligns to restful principals. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore really >>>>>> is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in >>>>>> particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging >>>>>> datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the >>>>>> client could also interact with {+restconf}/data. >>>>>> >>>>> The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired* >>>>> configuration with the *actual* operational state. This combination >>>>> cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady >>>>> state. >>>>> >>>>> I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I think >>>>> that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via >>>>> explicit datastores. >>>>> >>>> If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. For >>>> the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040 >>>> can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can >>>> be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts. >>>> >>> >>>>> E.g. >>>>> (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the >>>>> configuration, then it just writes to . >>>>> (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it does >>>>> it via and a commit to . From a system perspective >>>>> this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. >>>>> (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writes >>>>> to and then commits configuration to . >>>>> (4) If can be locked, then attempts by other clients to commit >>>>> to when it is locked must fail. >>>>> >>>> This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF users into >>>> learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid. >>>> >>> It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't implement locking >>> of shared candidate. >>> >>> I prefer explicit behavior. >>> >>> E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the contents of a >>> shared datastore makes the two protocols work together simpler. >>> More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and potentially very >>> bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the NETCONF client >>> isn't employing locking). >>> >>>>>>> 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the >>>>>>> proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> when they are committed. I think that clients may also want to see >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> combined configuration of the current contents of with the >>>>>>> delta held in applied. This could be exposed either as >>>>>>> (i) a >>>>>>> new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read- >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> datastore. A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't >>>>>>> support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> to one of the other two latter options. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a commit? >>>>>> This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation >>>>>> it >>>>>> is pretty trivial. >>>>>> >>>>> let me ask two different question first: >>>>> >>>>> (1) If I call GET on then do I see just what I have changed >>>>> (and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I see >>>>> all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in? >>>>> >>>> After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes >>>> (conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of . If you >>>> do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo >>>> NACM). However, you don't see any changes that have been done to >>>> in the mean time. >>>> >>> OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta against >>> the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with the >>> latest baseline version. Obviously, there would need to be a mechanism to >>> report merge conflicts. >>> >>>>> (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private >>>>> changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the >>>>> point in time that was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. it >>>>> always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running? >>>>> >>>> In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when >>>> was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it would >>>> be possible to let track the changes in intended as long as >>>> the user doesn't start editing it. >>>> >>>>>>> 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then >>>>>>> should they also be added to NETCONF? If they are added to both >>>>>>> then I >>>>>>> think that they should be added in the same way, as much as >>>>>>> possible, >>>>>>> perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive >>>>>>> text? In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC >>>>>>> that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the >>>>>>> individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing >>>>>>> similar >>>>>>> or equivalent text in two places. >>>>>>> >>>>>> But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? One >>>>>> possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared >>>>>> candidates >>>>>> have known problems. >>>>>> >>>>> How do you do private candidate in NETCONF? I thought that it was only >>>>> shared candidate that had been standardized. >>>>> >>>> RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1: >>>> >>>> The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple sessions. >>>> Unless a client has specific information that the candidate >>>> configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other sessions are >>>> able to modify the candidate configuration at the same time. >>>> >>> This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is generally regarded >>> as being shared, not private. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Rob >>> >>> >>>> Lada >>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, Lada >>>>>> >>>>>>> But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly >>>>>>> warrants some WG discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Netconf mailing list >>> Netconf@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >> From nobody Mon Jul 16 03:55:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA1F130E7C; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 03:55:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id saroKd2JE4OS; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 03:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEE8F130E50; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 03:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 200D42340015; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 12:55:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 12:55:13 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Christer Holmberg Cc: gen-art@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf.all@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180716105513.5457wkuu4cb6gtdd@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Christer Holmberg , gen-art@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf.all@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org References: <153122128332.25153.10473559847025784058@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <153122128332.25153.10473559847025784058@ietfa.amsl.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-06 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 10:55:20 -0000 On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 04:14:43AM -0700, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Minor issues: > > Sometimes, when a draft updates an existing RFC, people ask whether > implementations not implementing the draft are still compliant with the updated > RFC. Based on discussions, the consensus seems to be that existing > implementations are still compliant, and if one wants to mandate the new > features a bis is needed. I would just like to confirm whether that applies > also to this draft. If so, perhaps a note indicating that would be useful, in > order to avoid discussions in future? An existing NETCONF server not implementing NMDA is still compliant to the RFC 6241. However, a NETCONF server implementing NMDA (RFC 8342) has to implement this update to RFC 6241. Do you want to have this stated more explicitly? (We will have the same for RESTCONF and the NMDA update of RESTCONF.) > Related to that, it would also be good to have an interoperability > statement, saying that implementations that implement the draft will > still work with implementations that do not. This primarily concerns clients: They need to be able to fallback to using instead of and instead of if they communicate with a non NMDA NETCONF server. I am not sure whether this is a "SHOULD be able to fallback" or a "MUST be able to fallback". /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Jul 16 05:14:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67401130DF5 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 05:14:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qFKKAkPMDUhV for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 05:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (trail.lhotka.name [77.48.224.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E003130DC7 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 05:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix, from userid 109) id EE66C1820CBC; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 14:20:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [89.24.60.123]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E380A18202E0; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 14:20:16 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Robert Wilton , Andy Bierman Cc: "netconf\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 14:13:57 +0200 Message-ID: <87zhyrped6.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 12:14:10 -0000 Robert Wilton writes: > Hi Lada, > > > On 15/07/2018 09:48, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >> On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF. >>> In the future, a protocol-independent solution for >>> concurrent edit operations might be interesting. >> Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-) >> >>> Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI should be >>> deprecated >>> or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full. >> The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the only catch = is that >> nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see anything in RFC = 8040 >> that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes. >> >> BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data. > My opposition to {+restconf}/data is that works nicely with operational=20 > state.=C2=A0 I.e. it has the same issues as NETCONF operation, whic= h is=20 > why was introduced in the NETCONF NMDA draft. This is true, but I would change the semantics of this resource instead of deprecating it. The shorter URIs are very convenient. Perhaps this resource should just be a shortcut to , or to if my enhancement is supported. > > Defining a version of {+restconf}/data that abstracts and hides=20 > , commits, updating startup is fine, and we discussed this as= =20 > option as part of NMDA. > > However, I still regard automatically committing the contents of=20 > from a RESTCONF operation as very risky behaviour. Absolutely, if you mean the and commit as in NETCONF.=20 > >>=20=20=20 >> >>> Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF. >>> They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent). >> They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - the commit/= reset >> operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too. >> >> Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained statements like >> >> Applications that require more complex transaction capabilities might >> consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF. >> >> Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the present draf= t was >> exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting to NETCON= F. > I would like RESTCONF to be a fully viable alternative to NETCONF.=20 > Particularly because it have easily handle alternative encodings. Yes, that's my motivation, too. > >> >>> Operations are 1-shot and stateless. >>> >>> RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described in R= FC 6241 >>> does not work for RESTCONF. > This point that Andy raised concerns me.=C2=A0 If RESTCONF has no session= s=20 > that how does a datastore work? RESTCONF runs on top of a TLS session that provides user identity, but this is nothing new. Otherwise, I don't see any single bit of client's state that the server has to take into account. Each user has a private that is in a certain well-defined state (on the server). It is analogical to webmail and similar appllications and perfectly RESTful.=20 > >> My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the comments by Rob a= nd >> Juergen, I am now inclined to use rather than as th= e commit >> target. Then, if happens to be locked (from outside, e.g. NETC= ONF), >> then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing to do with >> sessions. > Note that in my previous comments, I wasn't saying that RESTCONF has to=20 > support , or , but I was trying to explain how private= =20 > candidate datastores could inter-operate with them if they were > supported. As I wrote, I agree with using in place of , as you suggested, but I believe should not be accesible and operable from RESTCONF. Lada > > Thanks, > Rob > > >> >> Lada >> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton >>> wrote: >>>> On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>>>> Robert Wilton writes: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Lada, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Rob, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thanks for your comments, please see inline. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Robert Wilton writes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Lada, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments >>>>>>>> below. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not >>>>>>>> RESTCONF >>>>>>>> needs this functionality or not. I've heard some operators state >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and >>>>>>>> hence >>>>>>>> don't have the need for a server side staging area. Perhaps a good >>>>>>>> question to ask in Montreal? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are >>>>>>> applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the >>>>>>> server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I th= ink >>>>>>> with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client >>>>>>> functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain >>>>>>> browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTC= ONF >>>>>>> extended according to my draft. >>>>>>> >>>>>> No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a s= ingle >>>>>> client commit. >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the >>>>>> configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request >>>>>> should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the interact= ion, >>>>>> although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on= the >>>>>> client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update >>>>>> isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. >>>>>> >>>>> I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually t= he >>>>> data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target >>>>> config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this >>>>> is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow. >>>>> >>>> This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into >>>> . Either the config change can be merged without errors and >>>> validates successfully (via ), or the merge fails, or valida= tion >>>> fails. If either the merge or validate fails then is not ch= anged, >>>> the config change is rejected, and the client notified. >>>> >>>>>> Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the >>>>>> expected usages of private candidate datastores. >>>>>> >>>>> The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of mult= iple >>>>> clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody >>>>> else may want to propose a client-side solution. >>>>> >>>> Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer. I don't= think >>>> that there is anything to standardize here. >>>> >>>>> I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable >>>>> servers and restricted clients, or vice versa. >>>>> >>>>>>>> The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical >>>>>>>> solution, >>>>>>>> and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging >>>>>>>> areas >>>>>>>> (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared >>>>>>>> lockable >>>>>>>> candidate datastore. This follows my belief that loosely coupled >>>>>>>> concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> shared locking). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at al= l. >>>>>>>> Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be sayi= ng >>>>>>>> . I.e. your staging datastores should update on >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> commit operation, just like a commit of updates >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to >>>>>>>> , and as such is a tangential consideration. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> The main reason for using is that the target datastore >>>>>>> into >>>>>>> which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all >>>>>>> times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and >>>>>>> under >>>>>>> NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this >>>>>>> simplification. >>>>>>> >>>>>> has the configuration supplied by the user before any >>>>>> template >>>>>> expansion, or inactive config removal. >>>>>> is the same configuration data, but after template expans= ion, >>>>>> inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations t= hat >>>>>> the server might do. >>>>>> >>>>>> If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config remova= l, >>>>>> and any other random config manipulations", then is trivi= ally >>>>>> the same as . >>>>>> >>>>>> Whenever is due to be changed, is also updated = at >>>>>> the same time, and validated. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hence is always valid, and by implication, so is , >>>>>> since you cannot make a change to without also updating, a= nd >>>>>> validating at the exact same time. I.e. they succeed or = fail >>>>>> together. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that your datastore design works much better with = NMDA >>>>>> if you update instead of . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Yes, but can be writable or not, may be locked and may be >>>>> invalid. >>>>> >>>> Yes, and that is all fine. >>>> >>>>> If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of >>>>> naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same device= , I >>>>> want to avoid their interference as much as possible. >>>>> >>>> You can't. Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the same dat= a, they >>>> need to be sympathetic to each other. >>>> >>>>> My idea is that >>>>> contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at . >>>>> >>>> Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture at all= . The >>>> NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configuration >>>> operations combine at rather than . This is also = the >>>> merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used. >>>> >>>> The purpose of is as a mechanism to handle template expansi= on, >>>> inactive config, and possibly other default server config. It isn't m= eant >>>> to be another configuration merge point. >>>> >>>>>>>> 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I thi= nk >>>>>>>> that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients >>>>>>>> interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as >>>>>>>> per >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1. The new staging >>>>>>>> datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> ietf-datastores:datastore identity. I think that this probably al= so >>>>>>>> more closely aligns to restful principals. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore rea= lly >>>>>>> is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in >>>>>>> particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging >>>>>>> datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the >>>>>>> client could also interact with {+restconf}/data. >>>>>>> >>>>>> The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired* >>>>>> configuration with the *actual* operational state. This combination >>>>>> cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady >>>>>> state. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I th= ink >>>>>> that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via >>>>>> explicit datastores. >>>>>> >>>>> If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. F= or >>>>> the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040 >>>>> can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can >>>>> be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts. >>>>> >>>>=20=20=20 >>>>>> E.g. >>>>>> (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the >>>>>> configuration, then it just writes to . >>>>>> (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it = does >>>>>> it via and a commit to . From a system perspecti= ve >>>>>> this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. >>>>>> (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writ= es >>>>>> to and then commits configuration to . >>>>>> (4) If can be locked, then attempts by other clients to co= mmit >>>>>> to when it is locked must fail. >>>>>> >>>>> This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF users = into >>>>> learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid. >>>>> >>>> It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't implement = locking >>>> of shared candidate. >>>> >>>> I prefer explicit behavior. >>>> >>>> E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the content= s of a >>>> shared datastore makes the two protocols work together sim= pler. >>>> More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and potentially= very >>>> bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the NETCONF = client >>>> isn't employing locking). >>>> >>>>>>>> 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains t= he >>>>>>>> proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> when they are committed. I think that clients may also want to see >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> combined configuration of the current contents of with t= he >>>>>>>> delta held in applied. This could be exposed either as >>>>>>>> (i) a >>>>>>>> new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read- >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> datastore. A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn= 't >>>>>>>> support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference wou= ld >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> to one of the other two latter options. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a comm= it? >>>>>>> This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> is pretty trivial. >>>>>>> >>>>>> let me ask two different question first: >>>>>> >>>>>> (1) If I call GET on then do I see just what I have changed >>>>>> (and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I = see >>>>>> all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in? >>>>>> >>>>> After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes >>>>> (conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of . If = you >>>>> do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo >>>>> NACM). However, you don't see any changes that have been done to >>>>> in the mean time. >>>>> >>>> OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta aga= inst >>>> the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with = the >>>> latest baseline version. Obviously, there would need to be a mechanis= m to >>>> report merge conflicts. >>>> >>>>>> (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private >>>>>> changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the >>>>>> point in time that was initialized? Or does it float, i.e.= it >>>>>> always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running? >>>>>> >>>>> In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when >>>>> was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it wo= uld >>>>> be possible to let track the changes in intended as long as >>>>> the user doesn't start editing it. >>>>> >>>>>>>> 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, th= en >>>>>>>> should they also be added to NETCONF? If they are added to both >>>>>>>> then I >>>>>>>> think that they should be added in the same way, as much as >>>>>>>> possible, >>>>>>>> perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive >>>>>>>> text? In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a R= FC >>>>>>>> that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that t= he >>>>>>>> individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing >>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>> or equivalent text in two places. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? O= ne >>>>>>> possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared >>>>>>> candidates >>>>>>> have known problems. >>>>>>> >>>>>> How do you do private candidate in NETCONF? I thought that it was= only >>>>>> shared candidate that had been standardized. >>>>>> >>>>> RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1: >>>>> >>>>> The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple session= s. >>>>> Unless a client has specific information that the candidate >>>>> configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other sessions = are >>>>> able to modify the candidate configuration at the same time. >>>>> >>>> This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is generally r= egarded >>>> as being shared, not private. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Rob >>>> >>>> >>>>> Lada >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Rob >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, Lada >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certain= ly >>>>>>>> warrants some WG discussion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>>> >>>>=20=20=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Netconf mailing list >>>> Netconf@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >>> > --=20 Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Mon Jul 16 05:57:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7B4130E02; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 05:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tPs291czlUtJ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 05:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (trail.lhotka.name [77.48.224.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C169D130DF9; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 05:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix, from userid 109) id 160F71820CBC; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 15:03:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [89.24.60.123]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D0AD18202E0; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 15:03:29 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Andy Bierman Cc: Kent Watsen , Juergen Schoenwaelder , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf\@ietf.org" , "netconf\@ietf.org" , Robert Wilton In-Reply-To: References: <82A8420F-445C-42BD-9A47-DCF62A9864BC@juniper.net> <20180709173041.xkihqyccjcucjslj@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <13FABA4A-C367-4E27-88FF-3EA48638249F@juniper.net> <87va9mf23z.fsf@nic.cz> <17b6cb1c2cd297a11b2dc6d4b54647aa0f4a47b7.camel@nic.cz> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 14:57:11 +0200 Message-ID: <87601fcp94.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] nmda-restconf operations (was: netconf-binary-encoding comments) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 12:57:18 -0000 Andy Bierman writes: > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > >> On Wed, 2018-07-11 at 08:40 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 4:22 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >> > > Kent Watsen writes: >> > > >> > > >>> This isn't what I meant. To be more specific, I'm wondering if the >> > > nmda-restconf >> > > >>> draft would benefit from having a sentence like: >> > > >>> >> > > >>> A RESTCONF server supporting NMDA datastores MAY implement the >> > > >>> "ietf-netconf" [RFC6241] and "ietf-netconf-nmda" [I-D. >> ietf-netconf- >> > > nmda- >> > > >>> netconf] modules to enable the NETCONF operations defined in >> those >> > > >>> drafts to appear {+restconf}/operations resource. >> > > >>> >> > > >>> Note: I put "MAY" as RESTCONF may someday have a more native way >> to do >> > > this. >> > > >>> >> > > >> >> > > >> Well, "ietf-netconf" does not really support NMDA well and this is >> why >> > > >> we have "ietf-netconf-nmda". Does not make much sense to point to >> > > >> "ietf-netconf" in an NMDA document. >> > > > >> > > > But we'd still need lock, unlock, commit, commit-confirmed, etc., >> > > > right? >> > > >> > > These would make RESTCONF server stateful, thus violating REST >> principles. >> > > My >> > > draft >> > > >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lhotka-netconf- >> restconf-transactions/ >> > > >> > > tries to achieve similar effects in a RESTful way. >> > > >> > >> > >> > I like the idea of "private candidate" datastores you call "staging". >> > I would keep the term candidate. >> >> The problem with this is that in NETCONF has a looser >> semantics (it >> can also be shared). >> >> > >> > This idea was discussed during RESTCONF draft development, but >> > as the client creating a "transaction" resource. I think your draft is on >> > the right track, and datastores are protocol-independent so NETCONF >> > can use the same datastores with RPC operations. >> >> Yes, it can certainly be improved. I already have some pending updates, >> but I >> wanted to keep it simple for start. >> >> > >> > You ignore the problem of concurrent edits, which is why this idea was >> not >> > pursued >> > at the time. What happens when the altered data overlaps across private >> > candidates? >> >> I don't ignore it, the text says that the user's staging datastore has to >> be >> atomically merged into , I just didn't want to specify the >> procedure. >> In any case, the result has to be a valid . But I am open to a >> discussion. >> > > > Leaving it as an implementation detail is the IETF's way of ignoring > problems. Here, the situation may be further complicated by factors that are not present in git, such as NACM or validation issues. But in fact, the particular procedure is not so important from the protocol viewpoint: by issuing the commit operation, the client says: "Dear server, here is my intention how the configuration should look like, do whatever you can to merge it with the existing config." > > >> >> > What are the procedures equivalent to git pull, push, merge? >> > How are collisions handled? What exactly is a collision? >> > Not trivial standards issues to solve. >> >> I think it can be left open, I even suspect there is no universal solution >> suitable for all use cases. Our implementation (JetConf) does the >> following: >> >> - each user's edit operation is applied to the staging datastore and also >> recorded in a journal >> >> - at commit, if hasn't been changed in the mean time, then the >> staging datastore simply becomes >> >> - otherwise, the edit operations from the journal are applied sequentially >> on >> the actual contents of . >> >> > > This is "last one wins". No, as I wrote, if an operation writes data that were changed in the mean time, the commit fails. Lada > You will find this sort of works for create and merge but no so much for > replace and delete. > > > >> (Actually, we are not NMDA-compatible yet and don't have but it >> works >> this way). >> >> Lada >> > > > Andy > > >> >> > >> > > Lada >> > > >> > >> > >> > Andy >> > >> > > > >> > > > Maybe it's a moot point, since ietf-netconf-nmda requires that ietf- >> > > netconf >> > > > is implemented too, but I thought being explicit would be helpful >> here. >> > > > >> > > > So, adding something like this to nmda-restconf would be good? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Kent // contributor >> > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > Netconf mailing list >> > > > Netconf@ietf.org >> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >> > > >> -- >> Ladislav Lhotka >> Head, CZ.NIC Labs >> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 >> -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Mon Jul 16 07:09:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76470130EA4 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 07:09:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fGUnMky6UC8z for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 07:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out-1.mxes.net (smtp-out-1.mxes.net [67.222.241.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3B61130E9E for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 07:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Customer-MUA (mua.mxes.net [10.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1427927530; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 10:09:37 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) From: Sean Leonard In-Reply-To: <3C98EB5C-4DB7-49A3-A751-CB0855AB41D0@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 10:09:35 -0400 Cc: Mahesh Jethanandani , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <26E63C76-8928-461D-B331-97AFBF1334BC@gmail.com> <3C98EB5C-4DB7-49A3-A751-CB0855AB41D0@juniper.net> To: Kent Watsen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) X-Sent-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] PKCS7 --> CMS X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 14:09:42 -0000 Hi there, just catching up... What happened to this thread? I checked the latest draft (draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-22), and = id-ct-zerotouchInformationXML and id-ct-zerotouchInformationJSON are not = actually referenced in the main body. The text should mention = specifically that they are to be used in XML and JSON circumstances. Am = I missing something? There is a related typo in zerotouch-22: the draft uses id_data = throughout but it is supposed to be id-data. Regards, Sean > On Feb 14, 2018, at 4:16 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 > FWIW, the ANIMA Voucher draft includes this text (note the *** part): >=20 > Note that Section 5.1 of [RFC5652] includes a discussion about how = to > validate a CMS object which is really a PKCS7 object (cmsVersion=3D1).= > Intermediate systems (such the BRSKI Registrar) which might need to > evaluate the voucher in flight MUST be prepared for such an older > format. ***No signaling is necessary, as the Manufacturer knows the > capabilities of the pledge, and will use an appropriate format > voucher for each pledge.*** >=20 > This means that there is already a mechanism for a system to pass XML > encoded data if need be. >=20 > My local draft has similar support in this text: >=20 > When the bootstrapping data is unsigned, as it might be when > communicated over trusted channels, the CMS structure's top-most > content type MUST be one of the OIDs described in Section 11.3 or = the > OID id_data (1.2.840.113549.1.7.1), in which case the encoding = (JSON, > XML, etc.) SHOULD be communicated externally. In either case, the > associated content is an octet string containing zerotouch- > information data in the expected encoding. >=20 > (and mirror-like text for the case when the bootstrapping data is = signed) >=20 > I don't know, but given that the ability to send XML is already there, = maybe it's better for us to be explicit and keep both "content type" = registrations? >=20 > Personally, I still (relative to when I mentioned it in my email to = Russ) think it best to have a generic "id-ct-YangEncodedData" for an = ASN.1 structure like this: >=20 > YangEncodedData { > moduleName string // e.g., = "ietf-zerotouch-information" > moduleRevision string // e.g., "2017-12-09" > encoding enum // XML, JSON, etc. > data octet string // the YANG-encoded data > } >=20 > which would cover *all* YANG encoded data. Imagine, doing so would = mean that any YANG-encoded data artifact (yang-data?), could be = fully-typed while also being: >=20 > 1) unsigned > 2) signed > 3) encrypted > 4) signed and encrypted >=20 > The only thing I don't like is that it entails needing to quickly = write a new I-D and get it adopted so that this draft can have a = normative reference to it. That said, it would be a *very* small draft = - something like 5 pages... >=20 > Kent // contributor >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 2/13/18, 11:49 PM, "Mahesh Jethanandani" = wrote: >=20 > Dear WG,=20 >=20 > Does anyone have objection to the proposal below for the envelope = information to be JSON format only, for now, with the idea that if XML = support is needed, it can be added later? >=20 > Barring any objections, we want to close on this issue and send the = draft for publication. >=20 > Thanks >=20 >=20 > On Feb 12, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > Line 1704 of the commit here [1] shows both XML and JSON content types = being registered. >=20 > id-ct-zerotouchInformationXML > id-ct-zerotouchInformationJSON >=20 >=20 > But the ANIMA Voucher draft only defines a single content type for = JSON. Their rational for supporting just one was that it would promote = interoperability, though XML support could be added at any time. >=20 > But having one artifact (zerotouch-information) support two encodings = while the other (ownership-voucher) can only support one doesn't seem = helpful either. What to do? >=20 > To be clear, this decision has no impact on if the bootstrap server = supports XML or JSON, or even what the bootstrapping device's = NETCONF/RESTCONF protocols support. But it does mean that, in the worst = case, a native-XML server may need to process a JSON document during the = bootstrapping process. >=20 > [1] = https://github.com/netconf-wg/zero-touch/commit/3d938e4d539407c8bb2b4e162d= ca497b01d8315c#diff-ac14b4845b3be918b874f2d3564d5d09R1704 >=20 > Thoughts? - should we again go back to only supporting JSON? - or = should we go ahead and define both now, with the assumption and the = ownership voucher will someday support XML too? >=20 > Kent // contributor >=20 >=20 >=20 > [moving Russ to BCC] >=20 > All, >=20 > The PKCS7 --> CMS change is reflected here: >=20 > = https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__github.com_netconf-= 2Dwg_zero-2Dtouch_commit_3d938e4d539407c8bb2b4e162dca497b01d8315c&d=3DDwIC= Ag&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH= 7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3DA-qDS0CYdeZjFh3qD4jW4CyOwFIr_KmezgiLDovTZbw&s= =3DYcPdTFTtK-LwGeIHtUMmazXzme-WkaIpGzibJMVdVHQ&e=3D >=20 > I plan to automatically merge this branch into -20, as already the = shepherd asked for this update. >=20 > Kent // author >=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D original message=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > I think that defining the two content types would be better. If you = use id-data, then you need another way to figure out what content type = is embedded. >=20 > Russ >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Feb 6, 2018, at 8:44 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 > Hi Russ, >=20 > Drilling down a little, I can imagine us defining a couple content = types: >=20 > id-ct-zerotouchInformationXML > id-ct-zerotouchInformationJSON >=20 > But, in both cases, the "content" would be just an octet string (i.e., > an XML or JSON encoded document). In particular, we would not define > an ASN.1 structure to represent the "zerotouch information" structure. >=20 > Is defining two types such as above the expectation or, since it's > just an octet string, perhaps we should use "id-data"? RFC 5652 > section 4 says this about the 'data' type (I added the quotes): >=20 > "The 'data' content type is intended to refer to arbitrary octet > strings, such as ASCII text files; the interpretation is left to the > application. Such strings need not have any internal structure > (although they could have their own ASN.1 definition or other > structure)." >=20 > Or, do you think we should look to do something even more generic, > such as: >=20 > id-ct-YangEncodedData >=20 > YangEncodedData { > moduleName string // e.g., = "ietf-zerotouch-information" > moduleRevision string // e.g., "2017-12-09" > encoding enum // XML, JSON, etc. > data octet string // the YANG-encoded data > } >=20 > Which would allow for the brokering of any YANG data. Such a type=20 > could've, for instance, also been used by the ANIMA voucher draft. >=20 > Thoughts? - anyone? >=20 > Kent >=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D original message =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > Kent: >=20 > Yes. This is the approach takes for signed firmware packages in RFC = 4108. >=20 > Russ >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Feb 6, 2018, at 3:40 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 > Russ, >=20 > I like it. I didn't know that it was possible to set the top-level = content > type value like that. Is the net-result still considered a CMS = structure? >=20 > Thanks, > Kent >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D original message =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > I suggest that ContentInfo is always present, then for the signed = case: >=20 > ContentInfo { > contentType id-signedData, -- (1.2.840.113549.1.7.2) > content SignedData > } >=20 > SignedData { > version CMSVersion, -- always set to 3 > digestAlgorithms DigestAlgorithmIdentifiers, -- Only one > encapContentInfo EncapsulatedContentInfo, > certificates CertificateSet, -- Signer cert. path > crls CertificateRevocationLists, -- Optional > signerInfos SET OF SignerInfo -- Only one > } >=20 > SignerInfo { > version CMSVersion, -- always set to 3 > sid SignerIdentifier, > digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier, > signedAttrs SignedAttributes, -- Required > signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier, > signature SignatureValue, > unsignedAttrs UnsignedAttributes -- Optional > } >=20 > EncapsulatedContentInfo { > eContentType > eContent OCTET STRING > } -- Contains the content >=20 > The unsigned case: >=20 > ContentInfo { > contentType > content -- Contains the content > } >=20 > Russ >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Feb 6, 2018, at 11:53 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 > Hi Russ, >=20 > I'm looking into switching from PKCS7 to CMS change in the NETCONF > zerotouch draft. This update would be similar to the change to the > ANIMA voucher draft. However, I noticed that RFC 5652 says in=20 > Section 5.2: >=20 > "In the degenerate case where there are no signers, the > EncapsulatedContentInfo value being "signed" is irrelevant. In this > case, the content type within the EncapsulatedContentInfo value being > "signed" MUST be id-data (as defined in Section 4), and the content > field of the EncapsulatedContentInfo value MUST be omitted." >=20 > Note, this text is similar to the last paragraph in RFC 2315 Section=20= > 9.1, though there it is just a "recommendation" that the value be > omitted. >=20 > This is a problem for the NETCONF zerotouch draft, where we currently > have a PKCS7 object that is sometimes signed. We choose this approach > because then, in all cases, a PKCS7 object is being communicated. But > it's no longer allowed in CMS? >=20 > Questions: >=20 > 1) Can the zerotouch draft explicitly allow the "eContent" field=20 > again for the degenerate case? >=20 > 2) If having a eContent value for the degenerate case is no longer > allowed, can we use it as grounds for not migrating to CMS? >=20 > 3) Are there any other generic "envelop" structure that can be=20 > "sometimes signed"? >=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Kent >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > = https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma= n_listinfo_netconf&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWz= oCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3DA-qDS0CYdeZjFh3qD4= jW4CyOwFIr_KmezgiLDovTZbw&s=3Do18ndrwnbD62ZZH5zVUoH7nk1Y0SPkdaxROvPs3_wrc&= e=3D >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >=20 > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf From nobody Mon Jul 16 13:36:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC1C13122D for ; 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Hello Qin,

   Factory default Setting Capability for RESTCONF
   
From the ietf-system YANG module:
    "system-restart : Request that the entire system be restarted immediately. "  So we already have a restart command,
and I still not understand the difference between your definition of reboot and restart.

If we implement this we need it both for netconf and restconf. Can't we do it as a YANG model defining an rpc instead of a protocol operation?
Why not make this one more rpc in ietf-system. We already have there the system-restart.

There are network devices that you can reset to factory default, but where you can not read the factory-default configuration. If this is implemented such devices must also be supported.  Actually this i also how Netconf works. You can not read what will be the result of a delete-config beforehand.

regards Balazs

-- 
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 15:30:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TqqcTaIucrN0 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 15:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out-2.mxes.net (smtp-out-2.mxes.net [67.222.241.118]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0785131096 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 15:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Customer-MUA (mua.mxes.net [10.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F186827513; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 18:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) From: Sean Leonard In-Reply-To: <10271E0A-6F83-4A13-A888-8FE549A14158@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 18:30:05 -0400 Cc: Mahesh Jethanandani , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <26E63C76-8928-461D-B331-97AFBF1334BC@gmail.com> <3C98EB5C-4DB7-49A3-A751-CB0855AB41D0@juniper.net> <10271E0A-6F83-4A13-A888-8FE549A14158@juniper.net> To: Kent Watsen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) X-Sent-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] PKCS7 --> CMS X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 22:30:15 -0000 > On Jul 16, 2018, at 6:08 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > Hi Sean, > >> I checked the latest draft (draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-22), and >> id-ct-zerotouchInformationXML and id-ct-zerotouchInformationJSON >> are not actually referenced in the main body. The text should >> mention specifically that they are to be used in XML and JSON >> circumstances. Am I missing something? > > I've added the following sentences to Section 10.3 in my local copy > of the draft: > > id-ct-zerotouchInformationXML indicates that the "zerotouch- > information" is encoded using XML. id-ct-zerotouchInformationJSON > indicates that the "zerotouch-information" is encoded using JSON. > > Okay now? It is okay with me. > > >> There is a related typo in zerotouch-22: the draft uses id_data >> throughout but it is supposed to be id-data. > > Good catch. this is fixed in my local copy of the draft. Great. It is also okay with me. Sean From nobody Mon Jul 16 16:10:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81A2130EDF for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 16:10:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ifdiz8nUik8F for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 16:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDB23126BED for ; 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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 19:08:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 19:08:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 19:08:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Wilton Cc: Ladislav Lhotka , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008fc35b0571286b30" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 02:08:30 -0000 --0000000000008fc35b0571286b30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Robert Wilton wrote: > Hi Lada, > > > On 15/07/2018 09:48, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > >> On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF. >>> In the future, a protocol-independent solution for >>> concurrent edit operations might be interesting. >>> >> Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-) >> >> Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI should be >>> deprecated >>> or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full. >>> >> The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the only catch >> is that >> nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see anything in RFC >> 8040 >> that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes. >> >> BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data. >> > My opposition to {+restconf}/data is that works nicely with operational > state. I.e. it has the same issues as NETCONF operation, which is > why was introduced in the NETCONF NMDA draft. > > It works for the functionality that was defined before NMDA existed. The point of the unified /restconf/data URI is that it is the same on every server. There is no discovery phase and 1 of N editing models. The server hides those details to simplify client programming. > Defining a version of {+restconf}/data that abstracts and hides > , commits, updating startup is fine, and we discussed this as > option as part of NMDA. > > This is what the RFC 8040 version of /restconf/data does Please learn to add new functionality in a way that does not break shipping code. Use some other URL besides /restconf/data for new functionality. Andy However, I still regard automatically committing the contents of > from a RESTCONF operation as very risky behaviour. > > >> >>> Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF. >>> They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent). >>> >> They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - the >> commit/reset >> operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too. >> >> Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained statements like >> >> Applications that require more complex transaction capabilities might >> consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF. >> >> Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the present draft >> was >> exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting to NETCONF. >> > I would like RESTCONF to be a fully viable alternative to NETCONF. > Particularly because it have easily handle alternative encodings. > > >> Operations are 1-shot and stateless. >>> >>> RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described in >>> RFC 6241 >>> does not work for RESTCONF. >>> >> This point that Andy raised concerns me. If RESTCONF has no sessions > that how does a datastore work? > > My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the comments by Rob and >> Juergen, I am now inclined to use rather than as the >> commit >> target. Then, if happens to be locked (from outside, e.g. >> NETCONF), >> then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing to do with >> sessions. >> > Note that in my previous comments, I wasn't saying that RESTCONF has to > support , or , but I was trying to explain how private > candidate datastores could inter-operate with them if they were supported. > > Thanks, > Rob > > > >> Lada >> >> Andy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>>> >>>>> Robert Wilton writes: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Lada, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Rob, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thanks for your comments, please see inline. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Robert Wilton writes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Lada, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments >>>>>>>> below. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not >>>>>>>> RESTCONF >>>>>>>> needs this functionality or not. I've heard some operators state >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and >>>>>>>> hence >>>>>>>> don't have the need for a server side staging area. Perhaps a good >>>>>>>> question to ask in Montreal? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are >>>>>>> applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the >>>>>>> server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client >>>>>>> functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain >>>>>>> browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with >>>>>>> RESTCONF >>>>>>> extended according to my draft. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a >>>>>> single >>>>>> client commit. >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the >>>>>> configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request >>>>>> should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the >>>>>> interaction, >>>>>> although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on >>>>>> the >>>>>> client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update >>>>>> isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually >>>>> the >>>>> data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target >>>>> config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this >>>>> is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow. >>>>> >>>>> This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into >>>> . Either the config change can be merged without errors and >>>> validates successfully (via ), or the merge fails, or >>>> validation >>>> fails. If either the merge or validate fails then is not >>>> changed, >>>> the config change is rejected, and the client notified. >>>> >>>> Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the >>>>>> expected usages of private candidate datastores. >>>>>> >>>>>> The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of >>>>> multiple >>>>> clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody >>>>> else may want to propose a client-side solution. >>>>> >>>>> Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer. I don't >>>> think >>>> that there is anything to standardize here. >>>> >>>> I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable >>>>> servers and restricted clients, or vice versa. >>>>> >>>>> The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical >>>>>>>> solution, >>>>>>>> and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging >>>>>>>> areas >>>>>>>> (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared >>>>>>>> lockable >>>>>>>> candidate datastore. This follows my belief that loosely coupled >>>>>>>> concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> shared locking). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at all. >>>>>>>> Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be saying >>>>>>>> . I.e. your staging datastores should update on >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> commit operation, just like a commit of updates >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to >>>>>>>> , and as such is a tangential consideration. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The main reason for using is that the target datastore >>>>>>> into >>>>>>> which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all >>>>>>> times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and >>>>>>> under >>>>>>> NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this >>>>>>> simplification. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> has the configuration supplied by the user before any >>>>>> template >>>>>> expansion, or inactive config removal. >>>>>> is the same configuration data, but after template >>>>>> expansion, >>>>>> inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations >>>>>> that >>>>>> the server might do. >>>>>> >>>>>> If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config removal, >>>>>> and any other random config manipulations", then is >>>>>> trivially >>>>>> the same as . >>>>>> >>>>>> Whenever is due to be changed, is also updated at >>>>>> the same time, and validated. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hence is always valid, and by implication, so is , >>>>>> since you cannot make a change to without also updating, and >>>>>> validating at the exact same time. I.e. they succeed or >>>>>> fail >>>>>> together. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that your datastore design works much better with >>>>>> NMDA >>>>>> if you update instead of . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, but can be writable or not, may be locked and may be >>>>> invalid. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, and that is all fine. >>>> >>>> If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of >>>>> naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same device, >>>>> I >>>>> want to avoid their interference as much as possible. >>>>> >>>>> You can't. Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the same >>>> data, they >>>> need to be sympathetic to each other. >>>> >>>> My idea is that >>>>> contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at . >>>>> >>>>> Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture at >>>> all. The >>>> NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configuration >>>> operations combine at rather than . This is also >>>> the >>>> merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used. >>>> >>>> The purpose of is as a mechanism to handle template >>>> expansion, >>>> inactive config, and possibly other default server config. It isn't >>>> meant >>>> to be another configuration merge point. >>>> >>>> 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think >>>>>>>> that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients >>>>>>>> interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as >>>>>>>> per >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1. The new staging >>>>>>>> datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> ietf-datastores:datastore identity. I think that this probably also >>>>>>>> more closely aligns to restful principals. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore >>>>>>> really >>>>>>> is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in >>>>>>> particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging >>>>>>> datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the >>>>>>> client could also interact with {+restconf}/data. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired* >>>>>> configuration with the *actual* operational state. This combination >>>>>> cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady >>>>>> state. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I >>>>>> think >>>>>> that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via >>>>>> explicit datastores. >>>>>> >>>>>> If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. >>>>> For >>>>> the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040 >>>>> can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can >>>>> be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> E.g. >>>>>> (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the >>>>>> configuration, then it just writes to . >>>>>> (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it >>>>>> does >>>>>> it via and a commit to . From a system perspective >>>>>> this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. >>>>>> (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writes >>>>>> to and then commits configuration to . >>>>>> (4) If can be locked, then attempts by other clients to >>>>>> commit >>>>>> to when it is locked must fail. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF users >>>>> into >>>>> learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid. >>>>> >>>>> It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't implement >>>> locking >>>> of shared candidate. >>>> >>>> I prefer explicit behavior. >>>> >>>> E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the contents >>>> of a >>>> shared datastore makes the two protocols work together >>>> simpler. >>>> More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and potentially >>>> very >>>> bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the NETCONF >>>> client >>>> isn't employing locking). >>>> >>>> 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the >>>>>>>> proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> when they are committed. I think that clients may also want to see >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> combined configuration of the current contents of with the >>>>>>>> delta held in applied. This could be exposed either as >>>>>>>> (i) a >>>>>>>> new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read- >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> datastore. A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't >>>>>>>> support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> to one of the other two latter options. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a >>>>>>> commit? >>>>>>> This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> is pretty trivial. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> let me ask two different question first: >>>>>> >>>>>> (1) If I call GET on then do I see just what I have changed >>>>>> (and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I >>>>>> see >>>>>> all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in? >>>>>> >>>>>> After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes >>>>> (conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of . If >>>>> you >>>>> do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo >>>>> NACM). However, you don't see any changes that have been done to >>>>> in the mean time. >>>>> >>>>> OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta >>>> against >>>> the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with >>>> the >>>> latest baseline version. Obviously, there would need to be a mechanism >>>> to >>>> report merge conflicts. >>>> >>>> (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private >>>>>> changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the >>>>>> point in time that was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. >>>>>> it >>>>>> always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running? >>>>>> >>>>>> In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when >>>>> was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it >>>>> would >>>>> be possible to let track the changes in intended as long as >>>>> the user doesn't start editing it. >>>>> >>>>> 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then >>>>>>>> should they also be added to NETCONF? If they are added to both >>>>>>>> then I >>>>>>>> think that they should be added in the same way, as much as >>>>>>>> possible, >>>>>>>> perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive >>>>>>>> text? In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC >>>>>>>> that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the >>>>>>>> individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing >>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>> or equivalent text in two places. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? >>>>>>> One >>>>>>> possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared >>>>>>> candidates >>>>>>> have known problems. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How do you do private candidate in NETCONF? I thought that it was >>>>>> only >>>>>> shared candidate that had been standardized. >>>>>> >>>>>> RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1: >>>>> >>>>> The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple sessions. >>>>> Unless a client has specific information that the candidate >>>>> configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other sessions >>>>> are >>>>> able to modify the candidate configuration at the same time. >>>>> >>>>> This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is generally >>>> regarded >>>> as being shared, not private. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Rob >>>> >>>> >>>> Lada >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Rob >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, Lada >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly >>>>>>>> warrants some WG discussion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Netconf mailing list >>>> Netconf@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >>>> >>> >>> > --0000000000008fc35b0571286b30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com&= gt; wrote:
Hi Lada,


On 15/07/2018 09:48, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
Hi,

I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF.
In the future, a protocol-independent solution for
concurrent edit operations might be interesting.
Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-)

Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI shou= ld be
deprecated
or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full.
The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the only catch is = that
nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see anything in RFC= 8040
that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes.

BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data.
My opposition to {+restconf}/data is that works nicely with operational sta= te.=C2=A0 I.e. it has the same issues as NETCONF <get> operation, whi= ch is why <get-data> was introduced in the NETCONF NMDA draft.


It works for the functionality that wa= s defined before NMDA existed.
The point of the unified /restconf= /data URI is that it is the same on every server.
There is no dis= covery phase and 1 of N editing models.=C2=A0 The server hides
th= ose details to simplify client programming.

=C2=A0=
Defining a version of {+restconf}/data that abstracts and hides <candida= te>, commits, updating startup is fine, and we discussed this as option = as part of NMDA.


This is what the RFC 8040 version of /= restconf/data does


Please learn to = add new functionality in a way that does not break shipping code.
=

Use some other URL besides /restconf/data for new funct= ionality.


Andy

=

However, I still regard automatically committing the contents of <candid= ate> from a RESTCONF operation as very risky behaviour.

=C2=A0
Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF.
They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent).
They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - the commit/res= et
operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too.

Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained statements like
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Applications that require more complex transaction capabiliti= es might
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF.

Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the present draft w= as
exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting to NETCONF.<= br>
I would like RESTCONF to be a fully viable alternative to NETCONF. Particul= arly because it have easily handle alternative encodings.


Operations are 1-shot and stateless.

RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described in RFC 6= 241
does not work for RESTCONF.
This point that Andy raised concerns me.=C2=A0 If RESTCONF has no sessions = that how does a <staging> datastore work?

My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the comments by Rob and<= br> Juergen, I am now inclined to use <running> rather than <intended&= gt; as the commit
target. Then, if <running> happens to be locked (from outside, e.g. N= ETCONF),
then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing to do with sessions.
Note that in my previous comments, I wasn't saying that RESTCONF has to= support <candidate>, or <locks>, but I was trying to explain h= ow private candidate datastores could inter-operate with them if they were = supported.

Thanks,
Rob



Lada

Andy




On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton
<rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
Robert Wilton <rw= ilton@cisco.com> writes:

Hi Lada,


On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
Hi Rob,

thanks for your comments, please see inline.

Robert Wilton <rw= ilton@cisco.com> writes:

Hi Lada,

I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments
below.

So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not
RESTCONF
needs this functionality or not.=C2=A0 I've heard some operators state<= br> that
they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, an= d
hence
don't have the need for a server side staging area.=C2=A0 Perhaps a goo= d
question to ask in Montreal?

=C2=A0 I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the
server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I think
with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client
functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain
browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTCONF
extended according to my draft.

=C2=A0 No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a= single
client commit.

I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the
configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request
should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the interaction= ,
although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on the client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update
isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm.

=C2=A0 I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually th= e
data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target
config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this
is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow.

=C2=A0 This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into <running>.=C2=A0 Either the config change can be merged without error= s and
validates successfully (via <intended>), or the merge fails, or valid= ation
fails.=C2=A0 If either the merge or validate fails then <running> is = not changed,
the config change is rejected, and the client notified.

Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the
expected usages of private candidate datastores.

=C2=A0 The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of multi= ple
clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody
else may want to propose a client-side solution.

=C2=A0 Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer.=C2=A0 I = don't think
that there is anything to standardize here.

I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable
servers and restricted clients, or vice versa.

The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical
solution,
and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-)

1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging
areas
(aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared
lockable
candidate datastore.=C2=A0 This follows my belief that loosely coupled
concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g.
with
shared locking).

2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention <intended> at a= ll.
Instead, everywhere you mention <intended> then you should be saying<= br> <running>.=C2=A0 I.e. your staging datastores should update <runni= ng> on
a
commit operation, just like a commit of <candidate> updates
<running>.
<intended> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to
<running>, and as such is a tangential consideration.

=C2=A0 The main reason for using <intended> is that the target datast= ore
into
which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all
times. <running> has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and
under
NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have <running><= br> and
<intended> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this
simplification.

=C2=A0 <running> has the configuration supplied by the user before an= y
template
expansion, or inactive config removal.
<intended> is the same configuration data, but after template expansi= on,
inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations that
the server might do.

If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config remo= val,
and any other random config manipulations", then <intended> is t= rivially
the same as <running>.

Whenever <running> is due to be changed, <intended> is also upd= ated at
the same time, and validated.

Hence <intended> is always valid, and by implication, so is <runni= ng>,
since you cannot make a change to <running> without also updating, an= d
validating <intended> at the exact same time.=C2=A0 I.e. they succeed= or fail
together.

I think that your <staging> datastore design works much better with N= MDA
if you update <running> instead of <intended>.


=C2=A0 Yes, but <running> can be writable or not, may be locked and m= ay be
invalid.

=C2=A0 Yes, and that is all fine.

If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of
naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same device, I want to avoid their interference as much as possible.

=C2=A0 You can't.=C2=A0 Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the= same data, they
need to be sympathetic to each other.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0My idea is that
contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at <intended>.

=C2=A0 Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture at= all.=C2=A0 The
NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configuration
operations combine at <running> rather than <intended>.=C2=A0 T= his is also the
merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used.

The purpose of <intended> is as a mechanism to handle template expans= ion,
inactive config, and possibly other default server config.=C2=A0 It isn'= ;t meant
to be another configuration merge point.

3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think
that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients
interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as
per
draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1.=C2=A0 The new staging=
datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit
from
ietf-datastores:datastore identity.=C2=A0 I think that this probably also more closely aligns to restful principals.

=C2=A0 Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datast= ore really
is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in
particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging
datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the
client could also interact with {+restconf}/data.

=C2=A0 The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired*<= br> configuration with the *actual* operational state.=C2=A0 This combination cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady
state.

I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I think
that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via
explicit datastores.

=C2=A0 If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. Fo= r
the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040
can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can
be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts.

=C2=A0
E.g.
(1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the
configuration, then it just writes to <running>.
(2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it does it via <staging> and a commit to <running>.=C2=A0 From a system= perspective
this is pretty much the same as (1) any way.
(3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writes
to <candidate> and then commits configuration to <running>.
(4) If <running> can be locked, then attempts by other clients to com= mit
to <running> when it is locked must fail.

=C2=A0 This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF use= rs into
learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid.

=C2=A0 It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't implem= ent locking
of shared candidate.

I prefer explicit behavior.

E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the contents= of a
shared <candidate> datastore makes the two protocols work together si= mpler.
More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and potentially very=
bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the NETCONF clien= t
isn't employing locking).

4) So, I think that the <staging> datastore itself only contains the<= br> proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to
<running>
when they are committed.=C2=A0 I think that clients may also want to see the
combined configuration of the current contents of <running> with the<= br> delta held in <staging> applied.=C2=A0 This could be exposed either a= s
(i) a
new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-
only
datastore.=C2=A0 A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn'= ;t
support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would
be
to one of the other two latter options.

=C2=A0 Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of= a commit?
This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation
it
is pretty trivial.

=C2=A0 let me ask two different question first:

(1) If I call GET on <staging> then do I see just what I have changed=
(and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I= see
all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in?

=C2=A0 After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes
(conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of <intended>. If = you
do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo
NACM).=C2=A0 However, you don't see any changes that have been done to<= br> <intended> in the mean time.

=C2=A0 OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta aga= inst
the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with the latest baseline version.=C2=A0 Obviously, there would need to be a mechanis= m to
report merge conflicts.

(2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private
changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the
point in time that <staging> was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. = it
always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running?

=C2=A0 In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when <staging> was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it wo= uld
be possible to let <staging> track the changes in intended as long as=
the user doesn't start editing it.

5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then
should they also be added to NETCONF?=C2=A0 If they are added to both
then I
think that they should be added in the same way, as much as
possible,
perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive
text?=C2=A0 In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a R= FC
that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the
individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing
similar
or equivalent text in two places.

=C2=A0 But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? One<= br> possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared
candidates
have known problems.

=C2=A0 How do you do private candidate in NETCONF?=C2=A0 I thought that it = was only
shared candidate that had been standardized.

=C2=A0 RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The candidate configuration can be shared among multipl= e sessions.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Unless a client has specific information that the candi= date
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other = sessions are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0able to modify the candidate configuration at the same = time.

=C2=A0 This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is general= ly regarded
as being shared, not private.

Thanks,
Rob


Lada

Thanks,
Rob


Thanks, Lada

But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly
warrants some WG discussion.

Thanks,
Rob

=C2=A0 _______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>



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(Postfix) with ESMTP id 4750D130E9D for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 22:50:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g4vAyiWvuz-N for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 22:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76854130DC8 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 22:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 5857A234C627; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 07:50:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 07:50:30 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 05:50:37 -0000 I do not think that configured subscriptions have been fully worked out. Nor do I see how I configure something that actually works. Since you have implemented this, perhaps you can help me to understand how all this actually works with the text in the current IDs. /js On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:10:52PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote: > Hi, > > As an implementor of the drafts, I suggest enough already: we've been going down this path for quite some time. > > Please publish both sets (dynamic and configured, and SN and YP) together. > > Thanks, > > Tim > > > Hi, > > > > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could explicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the choices below they think would lead to the work completing most quickly. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote: > > I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions > > (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting > > WGLC or > > modularity) > > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. > > > > hums now are: > > > > 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > > a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) > > b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > > > > 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > > a. SN first, then YP (published sequentially) > > b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) > > > > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. > > > > Thanks, > > Kent // chair > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > mailto:Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > -- > Cisco Systems Canada Co. > 2000 Innovation Drive > Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8 > Preferences > Unsubscribe > Privacy > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 17 03:52:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B8E130EEB for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 03:52:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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d="scan'208,217";a="5169115" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Jul 2018 10:52:03 +0000 Received: from [10.61.227.226] ([10.61.227.226]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6HAq1Tl004674; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:52:02 GMT To: Andy Bierman Cc: Ladislav Lhotka , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 06:52:01 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D74651CCB4B2FB9379F1B207" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:52:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D74651CCB4B2FB9379F1B207 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Andy, On 16/07/2018 22:08, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Robert Wilton > wrote: > > Hi Lada, > > > On 15/07/2018 09:48, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > Hi, > > I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF. > In the future, a protocol-independent solution for > concurrent edit operations might be interesting. > > Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-) > > Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" > URI should be > deprecated > or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full. > > The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the > only catch is that > nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see > anything in RFC 8040 > that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes. > > BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data. > > My opposition to {+restconf}/data is that works nicely with > operational state.  I.e. it has the same issues as NETCONF > operation, which is why was introduced in the NETCONF > NMDA draft. > > > It works for the functionality that was defined before NMDA existed. > The point of the unified /restconf/data URI is that it is the same on > every server. > There is no discovery phase and 1 of N editing models. The server hides > those details to simplify client programming. > > Defining a version of {+restconf}/data that abstracts and hides > , commits, updating startup is fine, and we discussed > this as option as part of NMDA. > > > This is what the RFC 8040 version of /restconf/data does Yes, the 8040 version does this, but it also co-mingles state which can be a problem (both for NMDA and pre-NMDA). > > > Please learn to add new functionality in a way that does not break > shipping code. I have not proposed breaking any shipping code. I've suggested deprecating /data - this doesn't break existing clients, but warns them that the functionality will disappear in future. I've suggested defining a version of /data that keeps the useful config abstraction but without the co-mingled state issues.  Yes, this would be on a new URL, or possibly defined as an abstract datastore. > > Use some other URL besides /restconf/data for new functionality. Of course, I've never intentionally suggested otherwise. Thanks, Rob > > > Andy > > > However, I still regard automatically committing the contents of > from a RESTCONF operation as very risky behaviour. > > > Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF. > They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent). > > They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - > the commit/reset > operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too. > > Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained > statements like > >     Applications that require more complex transaction > capabilities might >     consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF. > > Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the > present draft was > exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting > to NETCONF. > > I would like RESTCONF to be a fully viable alternative to NETCONF. > Particularly because it have easily handle alternative encodings. > > > Operations are 1-shot and stateless. > > RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking > described in RFC 6241 > does not work for RESTCONF. > > This point that Andy raised concerns me.  If RESTCONF has no > sessions that how does a datastore work? > > My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the > comments by Rob and > Juergen, I am now inclined to use rather than > as the commit > target. Then, if happens to be locked (from outside, > e.g. NETCONF), > then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing > to do with > sessions. > > Note that in my previous comments, I wasn't saying that RESTCONF > has to support , or , but I was trying to > explain how private candidate datastores could inter-operate with > them if they were supported. > > Thanks, > Rob > > > > Lada > > Andy > > > > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton > > wrote: > > On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > Robert Wilton > writes: > > Hi Lada, > > > On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > thanks for your comments, please see inline. > > Robert Wilton > writes: > > Hi Lada, > > I've had a read of this draft, and > have provided some comments > below. > > So, my top level comment is that I > don't know whether or not > RESTCONF > needs this functionality or not.  I've > heard some operators state > that > they think that clients can just > construct an "atomic" change, and > hence > don't have the need for a server side > staging area.  Perhaps a good > question to ask in Montreal? > >   I think what you mean is an analogy to > git, where all changes are > applied on the client's side and then new > commits are pushed to the > server. However, git was designed for this > mode of operation - I think > with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. > And also, the client > functionality would be probably difficult > to implement in a plain > browser whereas browser-based clients can > be easily used with RESTCONF > extended according to my draft. > >   No, I wasn't thinking that they would be > separate commits, but a single > client commit. > > I guess it may depend on whether it is a > machine constructing the > configuration change (in which case merging it > into a single request > should be plausibly straight forward), or > human's doing the interaction, > although even then I still wonder whether > creating an edit buffer on the > client side, and then pushing that to the > server as a single update > isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. > >   I agree that a lot can be done on the client > side, but eventually the > data has to be sent to the server, and it is > possible that the target > config datastore has changed in the mean time by > another client - this > is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow. > >   This is resolved at the time that any config change > is merged into > .  Either the config change can be merged > without errors and > validates successfully (via ), or the merge > fails, or validation > fails.  If either the merge or validate fails then > is not changed, > the config change is rejected, and the client notified. > > Perhaps the draft could have a background that > explains some of the > expected usages of private candidate datastores. > >   The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent > R/W access of multiple > clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the > server side, somebody > else may want to propose a client-side solution. > >   Clients can already do it today, as per my previous > answer.  I don't think > that there is anything to standardize here. > > I think both may be potentially useful - one can > have capable > servers and restricted clients, or vice versa. > > The rest of my comments below, apply > to the proposed technical > solution, > and obviously only apply if this is a > needed enhancement. :-) > > 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the > idea of per session staging > areas > (aka private candidates) described in > this draft over a shared > lockable > candidate datastore.  This follows my > belief that loosely coupled > concurrent systems are more robust > than tightly coupled ones (e.g. > with > shared locking). > > 2) I don't think that this draft needs > to mention at all. > Instead, everywhere you mention > then you should be saying > .  I.e. your staging > datastores should update on > a > commit operation, just like a commit > of updates > . > is always just updated as a > side effect of a write to > , and as such is a tangential > consideration. > >   The main reason for using is > that the target datastore > into > which staging datastores are merged has to > be valid at all > times. has somewhat fuzzy > semantics both in NETCONF and > under > NMDA. But yes, the text also says that > essentially we have > and > being the same. NMDA explicitly > permits this > simplification. > >   has the configuration supplied by > the user before any > template > expansion, or inactive config removal. > is the same configuration data, but > after template expansion, > inactive config removal, and any other random > config manipulations that > the server might do. > > If the device doesn't do "template expansion, > inactive config removal, > and any other random config manipulations", > then is trivially > the same as . > > Whenever is due to be changed, > is also updated at > the same time, and validated. > > Hence is always valid, and by > implication, so is , > since you cannot make a change to > without also updating, and > validating at the exact same time.  > I.e. they succeed or fail > together. > > I think that your datastore design > works much better with NMDA > if you update instead of . > > >   Yes, but can be writable or not, may > be locked and may be > invalid. > >   Yes, and that is all fine. > > If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is > perhaps just a matter of > naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF > on the same device, I > want to avoid their interference as much as possible. > >   You can't.  Ultimately there are two mechanisms > writing the same data, they > need to be sympathetic to each other. > >    My idea is that > contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet > at . > >   Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA > architecture at all.  The > NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client > configuration > operations combine at rather than > .  This is also the > merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are > being used. > > The purpose of is as a mechanism to handle > template expansion, > inactive config, and possibly other default server > config.  It isn't meant > to be another configuration merge point. > > 3) Rather than having clients interact > via {+restconf}/data, I think > that it would be much better to > require NMDA and then have clients > interact via > {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, > as > per > draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 > section 3.1.  The new staging > datastore identity should also be > defined in your module to inherit > from > ietf-datastores:datastore identity.  I > think that this probably also > more closely aligns to restful principals. > >   Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what > the "unified" datastore really > is. We wanted to make the semantics clear > and explicit and, in > particular, permit configuration edits > only via the staging > datastore. With your suggestion, it is not > clear to me whether the > client could also interact with > {+restconf}/data. > >   The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is > combines the *desired* > configuration with the *actual* operational > state.  This combination > cannot always be done in a sane way if the > system isn't in a steady > state. > > I think that we should be trying to deprecate > {+restconf}/data, I think > that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved > by interacting via > explicit datastores. > >   If this is done, then it would make sense to do > what you suggest. For > the time being, the advantage is that clients only > suporting RFC 8040 > can be used with my enhancements - the commit and > reset operations can > be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts. > > > E.g. > (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an > atomic update to the > configuration, then it just writes to . > (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged > configuration then it does > it via and a commit to .  > From a system perspective > this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. > (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is > required, then a client writes > to and then commits configuration > to . > (4) If can be locked, then attempts > by other clients to commit > to when it is locked must fail. > >   This is all very complicated, I don't want to > force RESTCONF users into > learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid. > >   It is not complicated, particularly if the server > doesn't implement locking > of shared candidate. > > I prefer explicit behavior. > > E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically > committing the contents of a > shared datastore makes the two protocols > work together simpler. > More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, > and potentially very > bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. > if the NETCONF client > isn't employing locking). > > 4) So, I think that the > datastore itself only contains the > proposed changes (additions, > modifications, and deletes) to > > when they are committed.  I think that > clients may also want to see > the > combined configuration of the current > contents of with the > delta held in applied.  This > could be exposed either as > (i) a > new RPC, (ii) as an extra query > parameter or (iii) As another read- > only > datastore.  A new RPC has the > disadvantage that it probably wouldn't > support all the query parameters, so > my instinctive preference would > be > to one of the other two latter options. > >   Do you mean to be able to see the result > of a "dry run" of a commit? > This would be certainly possible and, in > fact, in our implementation > it > is pretty trivial. > >   let me ask two different question first: > > (1) If I call GET on then do I see > just what I have changed > (and explicitly don't see anything that I > haven't changed), or do I see > all of the base configuration with my private > changes merged in? > >   After you do commit or reset, your staging > repository becomes > (conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy > of . If you > do some changes, you see them along with the other > config data (modulo > NACM).  However, you don't see any changes that > have been done to > in the mean time. > >   OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to > get/see the delta against > the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync > and merge with the > latest baseline version.  Obviously, there would need > to be a mechanism to > report merge conflicts. > > (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base > configuration + private > changes merged in, then is it the base > configuration fixed from the > point in time that was initialized? > Or does it float, i.e. it > always updates to the latest committed base > configuration in running? > >   In our implementation, it is the data from the > point of time when > was last initialized (after commit or > reset). I think it would > be possible to let track the changes in > intended as long as > the user doesn't start editing it. > > 5) If private candidate datastores are > being added to RESTCONF, then > should they also be added to NETCONF?  > If they are added to both > then I > think that they should be added in the > same way, as much as > possible, > perhaps both could be updated in a > single draft to save repetitive > text?  In general, I like (Kent's?) > idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC > that describes all the common parts of > NETCONF and RESTCONF that the > individual protocol docs can then > reference rather than writing > similar > or equivalent text in two places. > >   But private candidates are already an > option in NETCONF, right? One > possibility would be to make it the ONLY > option, because shared > candidates > have known problems. > >   How do you do private candidate in NETCONF?  > I thought that it was only > shared candidate that had been standardized. > >   RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1: > >      The candidate configuration can be shared > among multiple sessions. >      Unless a client has specific information that > the candidate >      configuration is not shared, it MUST assume > that other sessions are >      able to modify the candidate configuration at > the same time. > >   This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate > datastore is generally regarded > as being shared, not private. > > Thanks, > Rob > > > Lada > > Thanks, > Rob > > > Thanks, Lada > > But otherwise, I think that it is an > interesting idea, and certainly > warrants some WG discussion. > > Thanks, > Rob > >   _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > --------------D74651CCB4B2FB9379F1B207 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Andy,


On 16/07/2018 22:08, Andy Bierman wrote:


On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Lada,


On 15/07/2018 09:48, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
Hi,

I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF.
In the future, a protocol-independent solution for
concurrent edit operations might be interesting.
Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-)

Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI should be
deprecated
or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full.
The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the only catch is that
nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see anything in RFC 8040
that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes.

BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data.
My opposition to {+restconf}/data is that works nicely with operational state.  I.e. it has the same issues as NETCONF <get> operation, which is why <get-data> was introduced in the NETCONF NMDA draft.


It works for the functionality that was defined before NMDA existed.
The point of the unified /restconf/data URI is that it is the same on every server.
There is no discovery phase and 1 of N editing models.  The server hides
those details to simplify client programming.

 
Defining a version of {+restconf}/data that abstracts and hides <candidate>, commits, updating startup is fine, and we discussed this as option as part of NMDA.


This is what the RFC 8040 version of /restconf/data does

Yes, the 8040 version does this, but it also co-mingles state which can be a problem (both for NMDA and pre-NMDA).




Please learn to add new functionality in a way that does not break shipping code.
I have not proposed breaking any shipping code.

I've suggested deprecating /data - this doesn't break existing clients, but warns them that the functionality will disappear in future.
I've suggested defining a version of /data that keeps the useful config abstraction but without the co-mingled state issues.  Yes, this would be on a new URL, or possibly defined as an abstract datastore.




Use some other URL besides /restconf/data for new functionality.
Of course, I've never intentionally suggested otherwise.

Thanks,
Rob




Andy


However, I still regard automatically committing the contents of <candidate> from a RESTCONF operation as very risky behaviour.

 
Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF.
They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent).
They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - the commit/reset
operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too.

Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained statements like

    Applications that require more complex transaction capabilities might
    consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF.

Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the present draft was
exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting to NETCONF.
I would like RESTCONF to be a fully viable alternative to NETCONF. Particularly because it have easily handle alternative encodings.


Operations are 1-shot and stateless.

RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described in RFC 6241
does not work for RESTCONF.
This point that Andy raised concerns me.  If RESTCONF has no sessions that how does a <staging> datastore work?

My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the comments by Rob and
Juergen, I am now inclined to use <running> rather than <intended> as the commit
target. Then, if <running> happens to be locked (from outside, e.g. NETCONF),
then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing to do with
sessions.
Note that in my previous comments, I wasn't saying that RESTCONF has to support <candidate>, or <locks>, but I was trying to explain how private candidate datastores could inter-operate with them if they were supported.

Thanks,
Rob



Lada

Andy




On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton
<rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:

Hi Lada,


On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
Hi Rob,

thanks for your comments, please see inline.

Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:

Hi Lada,

I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments
below.

So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not
RESTCONF
needs this functionality or not.  I've heard some operators state
that
they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and
hence
don't have the need for a server side staging area.  Perhaps a good
question to ask in Montreal?

  I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are
applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the
server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I think
with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client
functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain
browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTCONF
extended according to my draft.

  No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a single
client commit.

I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the
configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request
should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the interaction,
although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on the
client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update
isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm.

  I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually the
data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target
config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this
is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow.

  This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into
<running>.  Either the config change can be merged without errors and
validates successfully (via <intended>), or the merge fails, or validation
fails.  If either the merge or validate fails then <running> is not changed,
the config change is rejected, and the client notified.

Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the
expected usages of private candidate datastores.

  The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of multiple
clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody
else may want to propose a client-side solution.

  Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer.  I don't think
that there is anything to standardize here.

I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable
servers and restricted clients, or vice versa.

The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical
solution,
and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-)

1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging
areas
(aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared
lockable
candidate datastore.  This follows my belief that loosely coupled
concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g.
with
shared locking).

2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention <intended> at all.
Instead, everywhere you mention <intended> then you should be saying
<running>.  I.e. your staging datastores should update <running> on
a
commit operation, just like a commit of <candidate> updates
<running>.
<intended> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to
<running>, and as such is a tangential consideration.

  The main reason for using <intended> is that the target datastore
into
which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all
times. <running> has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and
under
NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have <running>
and
<intended> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this
simplification.

  <running> has the configuration supplied by the user before any
template
expansion, or inactive config removal.
<intended> is the same configuration data, but after template expansion,
inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations that
the server might do.

If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config removal,
and any other random config manipulations", then <intended> is trivially
the same as <running>.

Whenever <running> is due to be changed, <intended> is also updated at
the same time, and validated.

Hence <intended> is always valid, and by implication, so is <running>,
since you cannot make a change to <running> without also updating, and
validating <intended> at the exact same time.  I.e. they succeed or fail
together.

I think that your <staging> datastore design works much better with NMDA
if you update <running> instead of <intended>.


  Yes, but <running> can be writable or not, may be locked and may be
invalid.

  Yes, and that is all fine.

If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of
naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same device, I
want to avoid their interference as much as possible.

  You can't.  Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the same data, they
need to be sympathetic to each other.

   My idea is that
contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at <intended>.

  Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture at all.  The
NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configuration
operations combine at <running> rather than <intended>.  This is also the
merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used.

The purpose of <intended> is as a mechanism to handle template expansion,
inactive config, and possibly other default server config.  It isn't meant
to be another configuration merge point.

3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think
that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients
interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as
per
draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1.  The new staging
datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit
from
ietf-datastores:datastore identity.  I think that this probably also
more closely aligns to restful principals.

  Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore really
is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in
particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging
datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the
client could also interact with {+restconf}/data.

  The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired*
configuration with the *actual* operational state.  This combination
cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady
state.

I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I think
that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via
explicit datastores.

  If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. For
the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040
can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can
be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts.

 
E.g.
(1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the
configuration, then it just writes to <running>.
(2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it does
it via <staging> and a commit to <running>.  From a system perspective
this is pretty much the same as (1) any way.
(3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writes
to <candidate> and then commits configuration to <running>.
(4) If <running> can be locked, then attempts by other clients to commit
to <running> when it is locked must fail.

  This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF users into
learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid.

  It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't implement locking
of shared candidate.

I prefer explicit behavior.

E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the contents of a
shared <candidate> datastore makes the two protocols work together simpler.
More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and potentially very
bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the NETCONF client
isn't employing locking).

4) So, I think that the <staging> datastore itself only contains the
proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to
<running>
when they are committed.  I think that clients may also want to see
the
combined configuration of the current contents of <running> with the
delta held in <staging> applied.  This could be exposed either as
(i) a
new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-
only
datastore.  A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't
support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would
be
to one of the other two latter options.

  Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a commit?
This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation
it
is pretty trivial.

  let me ask two different question first:

(1) If I call GET on <staging> then do I see just what I have changed
(and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I see
all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in?

  After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes
(conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of <intended>. If you
do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo
NACM).  However, you don't see any changes that have been done to
<intended> in the mean time.

  OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta against
the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with the
latest baseline version.  Obviously, there would need to be a mechanism to
report merge conflicts.

(2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private
changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the
point in time that <staging> was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. it
always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running?

  In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when
<staging> was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it would
be possible to let <staging> track the changes in intended as long as
the user doesn't start editing it.

5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then
should they also be added to NETCONF?  If they are added to both
then I
think that they should be added in the same way, as much as
possible,
perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive
text?  In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC
that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the
individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing
similar
or equivalent text in two places.

  But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? One
possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared
candidates
have known problems.

  How do you do private candidate in NETCONF?  I thought that it was only
shared candidate that had been standardized.

  RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1:

     The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple sessions.
     Unless a client has specific information that the candidate
     configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other sessions are
     able to modify the candidate configuration at the same time.

  This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is generally regarded
as being shared, not private.

Thanks,
Rob


Lada

Thanks,
Rob


Thanks, Lada

But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly
warrants some WG discussion.

Thanks,
Rob

  _______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf




--------------D74651CCB4B2FB9379F1B207-- From nobody Tue Jul 17 04:18:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61065130E11 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 04:18:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DC_PNG_UNO_LARGO=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_06=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M9VCZWAnlv4a for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 04:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0AA8130DCD for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 04:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 40E308530617D for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:18:25 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:18:26 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.110]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 19:18:21 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Monitor the whole operation state vs Monitor applied configuration from intended Thread-Index: AdQdvBAmwWsE3r6dTZ+nr9RUYJDuEw== Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:18:21 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.124.182.180] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF501EAnkgeml513mbxchi_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] Monitor the whole operation state vs Monitor applied configuration from intended X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:18:33 -0000 --_004_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF501EAnkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF501EAnkgeml513mbxchi_" --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF501EAnkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, All: When we discussed NMDA base event draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= wu-netconf-base-notification-nmda-01), one issues raised is about whether w= e should monitor operational state via subscription and see whether it conv= erge. I think this is close to what we proposed in (https://datatracker.iet= f.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-netconf-base-notifications-for-nmda-= 01), but I don't understand when you subscribe something, but you don't exp= ect notification to be sent from the server. So notification is necessary, = otherwise you may send RPC query message every time. the application or cli= ent can choose not subscribe these data if they are not interested in it, j= ust like what RFC6470 is doing. In our proposal, we only monitor applied configuration from intended, we do= n't monitor the whole operational state, we don't monitor learned configura= tion, system configuration, default configuration, since this is something = we can not control based on NMDA architecture, when we only monitor applied= configuration from intended, see whether they are validated correctly base= d on figure 2 of RFC8342, the server should know when these small amount of= configuration data can be applied comparing with the whole operational sta= te. Also I believe in your BGP route converging case, it indicate you are inter= ested in how system state or learned configuration, etc are validated, howe= ver this is not specified in NMDA architecture of RFC8342, based on figure = 2 of RFC8342, the only configuration data that is subject to validation are= the configuration data that is applied from intended. [cid:image001.png@01D41E02.25AA6980] Also I believe when you apply configuration on linecard that is not present= , this can be detected by the server since this is just a internal operatio= n. Figure 2 of RFC8342 has already listed this as example of misresource. -Qin --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF501EAnkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, All:

When we discussed NMDA base eve= nt draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra= ft-wu-netconf-base-notification-nmda-01), one issues raised is about whether we should monitor operational state via= subscription and see whether it converge. I think this is close to what we= proposed in (https://datatracker.iet= f.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-netconf-base-notifications-for-nmda-= 01), but I don’t understand when you subscribe something, but you donR= 17;t expect notification to be sent from the server. So notification is nec= essary, otherwise you may send RPC query message every time. the applicatio= n or client can choose not subscribe these data if they are not interested in it, just like what RFC6470 is doing.

 

In our proposal, we only monito= r applied configuration from intended, we don’t monitor the whole ope= rational state, we don’t monitor learned configuration, system config= uration, default configuration, since this is something we can not control based on NMDA architecture, when we only monitor applie= d configuration from intended, see whether they are validated correctly bas= ed on figure 2 of RFC8342, the server should know when these small amount o= f configuration data can be applied comparing with the whole operational state.

 

Also I believe in your BGP rout= e converging case, it indicate you are interested in how system state or le= arned configuration, etc are validated, however this is not specified in NM= DA architecture of RFC8342, based on figure 2 of RFC8342, the only configuration data that is subject to valida= tion are the configuration data that is applied from intended.

Also I believe when you apply c= onfiguration on linecard that is not present, this can be detected by the s= erver since this is just a internal operation. Figure 2 of RFC8342 has alre= ady listed this as example of misresource.

 

-Qin

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From: Qin Wu To: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Action invoked on operational state vs configuration datastore Thread-Index: AdQdwZLxU67gMTLnT2ehpNOLxd4/2g== Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:43:34 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.124.182.180] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF50254nkgeml513mbxchi_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] Action invoked on operational state vs configuration datastore X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:43:47 -0000 --_004_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF50254nkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF50254nkgeml513mbxchi_" --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF50254nkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, folks: We have posted inline action capability draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/= draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01) before this meeting and co= llected a few feedback on the list. Unfortunately this draft is not on the NETCONF agenda this time due to time= limitation reason. One of our proposal is to invoke action on both operati= onal state datastore and configuration datastore. Use Case for action invoked on operation datastore is: [cid:image001.png@01D41E05.032679F0] In this case, we can see action operation output become edit-data operation= input. The second case is action is invoked on configuration datastore, this case = seems a little tricky, since as described in RFC8342, Actions are always in= voked in the context of the operational state datastore. But talking with authors of RFC8342, it looks RFC8342 doesn't prevent evalu= ate action on other type of datastore, e.g., running, what is needed is to = update RFC7950 to allow evaluation action on other datastore. So I believe this case will be useful as well, e.g., You may first Enable ifstatistics on 1000 interfaces from the running confi= guration And then setting the MTU to 1500 on an interface named "Ethernet0/= 0" and 1000 on an interface named "Ethernet0/1" in the running configuratio= n. In this case, we can use action to realize ifstatistics enabling. Action op= eraton will not interfere with edit-config operation on MTU setting. Comments and feedback on this? -Qin --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF50254nkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, folks:

We have posted inline action ca= pability draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zheng-netcon= f-inline-action-capability-01) before this meeting and collected a few feedback on the list.

Unfortunately this draft is not= on the NETCONF agenda this time due to time limitation reason. One of our = proposal is to invoke action on both operational state datastore and config= uration datastore.

Use Case for action invoked on = operation datastore is:

 

In this case, we can see action= operation output become edit-data operation input.

 

The second case is action is in= voked on configuration datastore, this case seems a little tricky, since as= described in RFC8342, Actions are always invoked in the context of the ope= rational state datastore.

But talking with authors of RFC= 8342, it looks RFC8342 doesn’t prevent evaluate action on other type = of datastore, e.g., running, what is needed is to update RFC7950 to allow e= valuation action on other datastore.

So I believe this case will be = useful as well, e.g.,

You may first Enable ifstatisti= cs on 1000 interfaces from the running configuration And then setting the M= TU to 1500 on an interface named "Ethernet0/0" and 1000 on an int= erface named "Ethernet0/1" in the running configuration.

In this case, we can use action= to realize ifstatistics enabling. Action operaton will not interfere with = edit-config operation on MTU setting.

Comments and feedback on this?<= o:p>

 

-Qin

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AYoARYAiQBEwRYCmOahVUAQoAhQBigBFgCLQLQT+P3ULMR084wdCAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC --_004_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF50254nkgeml513mbxchi_-- From nobody Tue Jul 17 05:08:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F696130DE3 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 05:08:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q5JQlqe_q-kT for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 05:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F217130E48 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 05:08:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9414; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531829330; x=1533038930; h=subject:to:references:from:cc:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=4a3lQJi/QddQNPGEvP2Ml+13FPv6tcrLL2c6/Hqxw3I=; b=Wfh+LnnFQU/tFL5e9sZyKFTbVXou2OULGJxZQk9SFMmSpkmkk4UgsXOK zoIy8nycGFCOrpsieTf/4dJgvrUp4rWA2o3ukUagMdMF4SdPoAMWezTkQ 2OkCRtiycIHYL8Wy+Y9cGawEA5eMTmHIMw7sK4SdOIKORYR50LbCkNufM w=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,365,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="5229897" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Jul 2018 12:08:48 +0000 Received: from [10.61.227.226] ([10.61.227.226]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6HC8lme024499; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:08:47 GMT To: Qin Wu , "netconf@ietf.org" References: From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:08:47 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------83E8639217F155D863D1CFE1" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:08:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------83E8639217F155D863D1CFE1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Qin, Having read this draft, I can understand what the draft is proposing, but I don't currently understand why this is useful. Specifically, I don't find the example that is in the draft as compelling. If the desire is to set the MTU and enable the interface as one configuration operation, then wouldn't the client just configure both mtu and enabled leaves at the same time. Why is a separate action required here to enable the interface? So I'm struggling to think of actions that apply to configuration datastores where the same behaviour cannot just be achieved via a simple configuration manipulation. One use case could be wanting to repeat the same configuration on many interfaces at the same time, but for this, I think that a configuration templating solution would be preferable rather than using actions, and a templating would probably just reused edit-config/edit-data. So, if you have some other more concrete examples of actions that apply to configuration datastores, that might be helpful. Another question (which I think is similar to the one that Eric has also asked) is whether to have transactions that mix configuration operations and action operations on . E.g. perhaps enable an interface and reset the counters at the same time, or perform some config change and establish a dynamic subscription at the same time. But I question how robust this would end up being (I'm not generally a fan of distributed transactions - they never seem to be as robust as they claim to be). Perhaps one for future thought and discussion. Thanks, Rob On 03/07/2018 22:01, Qin Wu wrote: > > Hi, Folks: > > We have posted inline action capability draft on Jun 28: > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14823.html > > One comment we received from the list is: > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14863.html > The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment. > > Therefore we would like to draw you attention again on this draft > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01 > > We would like to receive more review and feedback on this draft, thanks. > > -Qin > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf --------------83E8639217F155D863D1CFE1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Qin,

Having read this draft, I can understand what the draft is proposing, but I don't currently understand why this is useful. Specifically, I don't find the example that is in the draft as compelling. If the desire is to set the MTU and enable the interface as one configuration operation, then wouldn't the client just configure both mtu and enabled leaves at the same time. Why is a separate action required here to enable the interface?

So I'm struggling to think of actions that apply to configuration datastores where the same behaviour cannot just be achieved via a simple configuration manipulation. One use case could be wanting to repeat the same configuration on many interfaces at the same time, but for this, I think that a configuration templating solution would be preferable rather than using actions, and a templating would probably just reused edit-config/edit-data. So, if you have some other more concrete examples of actions that apply to configuration datastores, that might be helpful.

Another question (which I think is similar to the one that Eric has also asked) is whether to have transactions that mix configuration operations and action operations on <operational>. E.g. perhaps enable an interface and reset the counters at the same time, or perform some config change and establish a dynamic subscription at the same time. But I question how robust this would end up being (I'm not generally a fan of distributed transactions - they never seem to be as robust as they claim to be). Perhaps one for future thought and discussion.

Thanks,
Rob


On 03/07/2018 22:01, Qin Wu wrote:

Hi, Folks:

We have posted inline action capability draft on Jun 28:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14823.html

One comment we received from the list is:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14863.html
The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment.

Therefore we would like to draw you attention again on this draft

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01

We would like to receive more review and feedback on this draft, thanks.

-Qin



_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

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<2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.117] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_18622ABDDB9F406C836F64649F3D8FF6ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 13:21:13 -0000 --_000_18622ABDDB9F406C836F64649F3D8FF6ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TPIuG4z8cCLY for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 06:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1862D130E58 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 06:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1839E234D16F; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:25:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:25:28 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Robert Wilton Cc: Qin Wu , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180717132528.xotht5ydvhjfwvdn@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Robert Wilton , Qin Wu , "netconf@ietf.org" References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 13:25:34 -0000 On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 08:08:47AM -0400, Robert Wilton wrote: > Hi Qin, > > Having read this draft, I can understand what the draft is proposing, but I > don't currently understand why this is useful. Specifically, I don't find > the example that is in the draft as compelling. If the desire is to set the > MTU and enable the interface as one configuration operation, then wouldn't > the client just configure both mtu and enabled leaves at the same time. Why > is a separate action required here to enable the interface? > I have asked myself the same question multiple times. ;-) If people want engineer transactions consisting of multiple operations, then they should do this for combinations of _arbitrary_ operations. At the end, edit-config is just an operation like edit-data or any other operation. Personally, I do not think heavy weight transactions is the way to go but if people want to engineer this, please make the solution at least generic and not bound to edit-config or something like that. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 17 07:12:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D740812F1A6 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 07:12:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a4QWO92ThrTp for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 07:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40D1C130E1B for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 07:12:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1191; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531836772; x=1533046372; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Por5Wiub8th5fYh9CfA2QCaxHalBTAAa1sa2k0M2p1M=; b=H5Ilg+5kcpeEDcxPgbYTrea2zTKKSleJR31nRXRknSWETF9sDECVg6p2 ATnXKQwUwWuF7yjFpIJxgU7ZfkDaSOnlKIXzhvv9oLsl2D7siafCsbCEc 0przkBXUq93wR+UBXlB/9WAWmmOA01Mp4jHyfm6HT3b/ifdpbNRiTkuTf s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B5AQDw901b/xbLJq1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYUZEoQliGONPQgklzMLhGwCgxE3FQECAQECAQECbSiFNgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQMBIw8BBUYLCxgCAiYCAlcGAQwIAQEXgwWBeAiqaYEuhFuFaoELiU4/gTg?= =?us-ascii?q?MgjAuh3yCVQKZXAmPIQaBQ4QRgkglhSSMP4VVgVcigVIzGggbFYMlkG4jjXA?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,365,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="5229599" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Jul 2018 14:12:50 +0000 Received: from [10.61.227.226] ([10.61.227.226]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6HECmBm014705; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:12:49 GMT To: Robert Wilton , Qin Wu , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <20180717132528.xotht5ydvhjfwvdn@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:12:48 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180717132528.xotht5ydvhjfwvdn@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:12:55 -0000 On 17/07/2018 09:25, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 08:08:47AM -0400, Robert Wilton wrote: >> Hi Qin, >> >> Having read this draft, I can understand what the draft is proposing, but I >> don't currently understand why this is useful. Specifically, I don't find >> the example that is in the draft as compelling.  If the desire is to set the >> MTU and enable the interface as one configuration operation, then wouldn't >> the client just configure both mtu and enabled leaves at the same time.  Why >> is a separate action required here to enable the interface? >> > I have asked myself the same question multiple times. ;-) > > If people want engineer transactions consisting of multiple > operations, then they should do this for combinations of _arbitrary_ > operations. At the end, edit-config is just an operation like > edit-data or any other operation. I agree. > Personally, I do not think heavy weight transactions is the way to go > but if people want to engineer this, please make the solution at least > generic and not bound to edit-config or something like that. I also agree to both points. Thanks, Rob > > /js > From nobody Tue Jul 17 08:07:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39AC8129619 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:07:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XPG4-bCcfxf8 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6A83130F7C for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id r13-v6so1293372ljg.10 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:07:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=o5eyhawPVIcNXcL3tf0x1FKhG8GmuXqidFhNuQHL9uI=; b=riOIjR/RANZpG+e/Po2jPddIfsnhuyAmY4krwrCAPPd8azJR2qR+/Jmv5wvO8FlRj8 3Ac2X2CI6gxow00a8nnNY6LeLB1s5vu6VPhbfobsJGekPDvIKKzV9C2jZADtLRMhNnzf BIYOmuEDoxwh+oP908rTl9cMrK4jvRuCF2GjVIrizgOYZEi5n82OB0rsd4ZK6vQ1hVaL NfBxifFkKi+uybLnxxnRpadtdHYDO9uIw/z6JI23O7YMzZ8uW4wlREYmhdvVg94Aqvbx nCSVxBeH05ral/vgjueDDJqp+P4aIkngUQNse1amwqDzV3KG8WrgHFem6pVJTZ/+Sc0P 3JvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=o5eyhawPVIcNXcL3tf0x1FKhG8GmuXqidFhNuQHL9uI=; b=F6gV0ZWckNEb/Cr+ixUsBxW+FJxw+3lZfjfKhdY8AlLPJbxcUDCYcIAa91mu3/k6oP sbIrzm6QuA51cQUK1cus7BkGbOE0LLP4RLG88ozB2M7/X34qcLihIS9MW7Zfmd2eSSuA oitXr/N8o7duq+3yYxaP8njsoWkly3R5JhCZmFHWjKPcDuMWLHl7Qh6MxwYuKQWlNkZY 3PxvQ+C38yS+mb64vYCA2zVQxn791c58LIVxcKB/KbDc6m7Zgb34yHQGvYYHxznT1GCR bfl1HwjxELAKtkMizxxB4BO3eYhOSg8lppGYWWQkM4W5fZ6s1jJc8AJ5hDVqmFOs+Brd Vzeg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFOqeDsaScMgnItDYcfGkRk6LiWK+315kk7+z+BIhVkE14z14nF +G+vMG+rfILIjDHuEVP6H6A4cxxsPCMPiejq2rJk0w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeF+t0R8iZreG6SHT8n9VgSy1ly/Dn40On9VG7Drb0LVeSM0Xsu4dEuBKCy9DIq8jAPB9/4fWZ6us6WfJabkqE= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2ac3:: with SMTP id q186-v6mr1713983ljq.123.1531840034837; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:07:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:07:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:07:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Wilton Cc: Ladislav Lhotka , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000021408f0571334dbb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:07:36 -0000 --00000000000021408f0571334dbb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 3:52 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: > Hi Andy, > > On 16/07/2018 22:08, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Robert Wilton wrote: > >> Hi Lada, >> >> >> On 15/07/2018 09:48, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF. >>>> In the future, a protocol-independent solution for >>>> concurrent edit operations might be interesting. >>>> >>> Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-) >>> >>> Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI should be >>>> deprecated >>>> or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full. >>>> >>> The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the only catch >>> is that >>> nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see anything in RFC >>> 8040 >>> that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes. >>> >>> BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data. >>> >> My opposition to {+restconf}/data is that works nicely with operational >> state. I.e. it has the same issues as NETCONF operation, which is >> why was introduced in the NETCONF NMDA draft. >> >> > It works for the functionality that was defined before NMDA existed. > The point of the unified /restconf/data URI is that it is the same on > every server. > There is no discovery phase and 1 of N editing models. The server hides > those details to simplify client programming. > > > >> Defining a version of {+restconf}/data that abstracts and hides >> , commits, updating startup is fine, and we discussed this as >> option as part of NMDA. >> >> > This is what the RFC 8040 version of /restconf/data does > > > Yes, the 8040 version does this, but it also co-mingles state which can be > a problem (both for NMDA and pre-NMDA). > > > So far the only standard thing you can do with NMDA is report the operational value of configuration data nodes. For devices that do not have noticeable delays to apply configuration, there won't be any difference between the config=true nodes in and . For these devices, NMDA is not interesting and even irrelevant. > > Please learn to add new functionality in a way that does not break > shipping code. > > I have not proposed breaking any shipping code. > > I've suggested deprecating /data - this doesn't break existing clients, > but warns them that the functionality will disappear in future. > This certainly breaks existing clients. There is no reason for the functionality to disappear in the future except the NETCONF WG does not care about stability. If you need the functionality of NMDA, then use NMDA for RESTCONF. > I've suggested defining a version of /data that keeps the useful config > abstraction but without the co-mingled state issues. Yes, this would be on > a new URL, or possibly defined as an abstract datastore. > Moving /restconf/data or changing it (as Lada suggests) is not backward compatible > > > > Use some other URL besides /restconf/data for new functionality. > > Of course, I've never intentionally suggested otherwise. > > Thanks, > Rob > > > > Andy > > Andy > > > However, I still regard automatically committing the contents of >> from a RESTCONF operation as very risky behaviour. >> >> >>> >>>> Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF. >>>> They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent). >>>> >>> They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - the >>> commit/reset >>> operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too. >>> >>> Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained statements like >>> >>> Applications that require more complex transaction capabilities might >>> consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF. >>> >>> Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the present >>> draft was >>> exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting to >>> NETCONF. >>> >> I would like RESTCONF to be a fully viable alternative to NETCONF. >> Particularly because it have easily handle alternative encodings. >> >> >>> Operations are 1-shot and stateless. >>>> >>>> RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described in >>>> RFC 6241 >>>> does not work for RESTCONF. >>>> >>> This point that Andy raised concerns me. If RESTCONF has no sessions >> that how does a datastore work? >> >> My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the comments by Rob and >>> Juergen, I am now inclined to use rather than as >>> the commit >>> target. Then, if happens to be locked (from outside, e.g. >>> NETCONF), >>> then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing to do with >>> sessions. >>> >> Note that in my previous comments, I wasn't saying that RESTCONF has to >> support , or , but I was trying to explain how private >> candidate datastores could inter-operate with them if they were supported. >> >> Thanks, >> Rob >> >> >> >>> Lada >>> >>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Robert Wilton writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Lada, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Rob, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> thanks for your comments, please see inline. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Robert Wilton writes: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Lada, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments >>>>>>>>> below. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not >>>>>>>>> RESTCONF >>>>>>>>> needs this functionality or not. I've heard some operators state >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and >>>>>>>>> hence >>>>>>>>> don't have the need for a server side staging area. Perhaps a good >>>>>>>>> question to ask in Montreal? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are >>>>>>>> applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the >>>>>>>> server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>> with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client >>>>>>>> functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain >>>>>>>> browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with >>>>>>>> RESTCONF >>>>>>>> extended according to my draft. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a >>>>>>> single >>>>>>> client commit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the >>>>>>> configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request >>>>>>> should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the >>>>>>> interaction, >>>>>>> although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update >>>>>>> isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually >>>>>> the >>>>>> data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target >>>>>> config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this >>>>>> is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into >>>>> . Either the config change can be merged without errors and >>>>> validates successfully (via ), or the merge fails, or >>>>> validation >>>>> fails. If either the merge or validate fails then is not >>>>> changed, >>>>> the config change is rejected, and the client notified. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the >>>>>>> expected usages of private candidate datastores. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of >>>>>> multiple >>>>>> clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody >>>>>> else may want to propose a client-side solution. >>>>>> >>>>>> Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer. I >>>>> don't think >>>>> that there is anything to standardize here. >>>>> >>>>> I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable >>>>>> servers and restricted clients, or vice versa. >>>>>> >>>>>> The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical >>>>>>>>> solution, >>>>>>>>> and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging >>>>>>>>> areas >>>>>>>>> (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared >>>>>>>>> lockable >>>>>>>>> candidate datastore. This follows my belief that loosely coupled >>>>>>>>> concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g. >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> shared locking). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention at >>>>>>>>> all. >>>>>>>>> Instead, everywhere you mention then you should be >>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>> . I.e. your staging datastores should update on >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> commit operation, just like a commit of updates >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to >>>>>>>>> , and as such is a tangential consideration. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The main reason for using is that the target datastore >>>>>>>> into >>>>>>>> which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all >>>>>>>> times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and >>>>>>>> under >>>>>>>> NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this >>>>>>>> simplification. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> has the configuration supplied by the user before any >>>>>>> template >>>>>>> expansion, or inactive config removal. >>>>>>> is the same configuration data, but after template >>>>>>> expansion, >>>>>>> inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> the server might do. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config >>>>>>> removal, >>>>>>> and any other random config manipulations", then is >>>>>>> trivially >>>>>>> the same as . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Whenever is due to be changed, is also updated >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> the same time, and validated. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hence is always valid, and by implication, so is >>>>>>> , >>>>>>> since you cannot make a change to without also updating, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> validating at the exact same time. I.e. they succeed or >>>>>>> fail >>>>>>> together. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think that your datastore design works much better with >>>>>>> NMDA >>>>>>> if you update instead of . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, but can be writable or not, may be locked and may be >>>>>> invalid. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, and that is all fine. >>>>> >>>>> If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of >>>>>> naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same >>>>>> device, I >>>>>> want to avoid their interference as much as possible. >>>>>> >>>>>> You can't. Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the same >>>>> data, they >>>>> need to be sympathetic to each other. >>>>> >>>>> My idea is that >>>>>> contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at . >>>>>> >>>>>> Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture at >>>>> all. The >>>>> NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configuration >>>>> operations combine at rather than . This is also >>>>> the >>>>> merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used. >>>>> >>>>> The purpose of is as a mechanism to handle template >>>>> expansion, >>>>> inactive config, and possibly other default server config. It isn't >>>>> meant >>>>> to be another configuration merge point. >>>>> >>>>> 3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think >>>>>>>>> that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients >>>>>>>>> interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as >>>>>>>>> per >>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1. The new staging >>>>>>>>> datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> ietf-datastores:datastore identity. I think that this probably >>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>> more closely aligns to restful principals. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore >>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>> is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in >>>>>>>> particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging >>>>>>>> datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the >>>>>>>> client could also interact with {+restconf}/data. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the >>>>>>> *desired* >>>>>>> configuration with the *actual* operational state. This combination >>>>>>> cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady >>>>>>> state. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via >>>>>>> explicit datastores. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. >>>>>> For >>>>>> the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040 >>>>>> can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can >>>>>> be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> E.g. >>>>>>> (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the >>>>>>> configuration, then it just writes to . >>>>>>> (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it >>>>>>> does >>>>>>> it via and a commit to . From a system >>>>>>> perspective >>>>>>> this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. >>>>>>> (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client >>>>>>> writes >>>>>>> to and then commits configuration to . >>>>>>> (4) If can be locked, then attempts by other clients to >>>>>>> commit >>>>>>> to when it is locked must fail. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF users >>>>>> into >>>>>> learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid. >>>>>> >>>>>> It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't implement >>>>> locking >>>>> of shared candidate. >>>>> >>>>> I prefer explicit behavior. >>>>> >>>>> E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the >>>>> contents of a >>>>> shared datastore makes the two protocols work together >>>>> simpler. >>>>> More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and potentially >>>>> very >>>>> bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the NETCONF >>>>> client >>>>> isn't employing locking). >>>>> >>>>> 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only contains the >>>>>>>>> proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> when they are committed. I think that clients may also want to see >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> combined configuration of the current contents of with >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> delta held in applied. This could be exposed either as >>>>>>>>> (i) a >>>>>>>>> new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read- >>>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>> datastore. A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably >>>>>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>>>>> support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> to one of the other two latter options. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a >>>>>>>> commit? >>>>>>>> This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> is pretty trivial. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> let me ask two different question first: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (1) If I call GET on then do I see just what I have changed >>>>>>> (and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I >>>>>>> see >>>>>>> all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes >>>>>> (conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of . If >>>>>> you >>>>>> do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo >>>>>> NACM). However, you don't see any changes that have been done to >>>>>> in the mean time. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta >>>>> against >>>>> the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with >>>>> the >>>>> latest baseline version. Obviously, there would need to be a >>>>> mechanism to >>>>> report merge conflicts. >>>>> >>>>> (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private >>>>>>> changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the >>>>>>> point in time that was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when >>>>>> was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it >>>>>> would >>>>>> be possible to let track the changes in intended as long as >>>>>> the user doesn't start editing it. >>>>>> >>>>>> 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then >>>>>>>>> should they also be added to NETCONF? If they are added to both >>>>>>>>> then I >>>>>>>>> think that they should be added in the same way, as much as >>>>>>>>> possible, >>>>>>>>> perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive >>>>>>>>> text? In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a >>>>>>>>> RFC >>>>>>>>> that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing >>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>> or equivalent text in two places. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? >>>>>>>> One >>>>>>>> possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared >>>>>>>> candidates >>>>>>>> have known problems. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How do you do private candidate in NETCONF? I thought that it >>>>>>> was only >>>>>>> shared candidate that had been standardized. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1: >>>>>> >>>>>> The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple >>>>>> sessions. >>>>>> Unless a client has specific information that the candidate >>>>>> configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other sessions >>>>>> are >>>>>> able to modify the candidate configuration at the same time. >>>>>> >>>>>> This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is generally >>>>> regarded >>>>> as being shared, not private. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Lada >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, Lada >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly >>>>>>>>> warrants some WG discussion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Netconf mailing list >>>>> Netconf@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> > > --00000000000021408f0571334dbb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 3:52 AM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com&= gt; wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hi Andy,


On 16/07/2018 22:08= , Andy Bierman wrote:
=20


On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Lada,


On 15/07/2018 09:48, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
Hi,

I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF.
In the future, a protocol-independent solution for
concurrent edit operations might be interesting.
Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-)

Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI should be
deprecated
or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full.
The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the only catch is that
nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see anything in RFC 8040
that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes.

BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data.
My opposition to {+restconf}/data is that works nicely with operational state.=C2=A0 I.e. it has the same issues as NETCONF <get> operation, which is why <get-data> was introduced in the NETCONF NMDA draft.

It works for the functionality that was defined before NMDA existed.
The point of the unified /restconf/data URI is that it is the same on every server.
There is no discovery phase and 1 of N editing models.=C2= =A0 The server hides
those details to simplify client programming.

=C2=A0
Defining a version of {+restconf}/data that abstracts and hides <candidate>, commits, updating startup is fine, and we discussed this as option as part of NMDA.


This is what the RFC 8040 version of /restconf/data does

Yes, the 8040 version does this, but it also co-mingles state which can be a problem (both for NMDA and pre-NMDA).





So far the only standard thing you can do with NMDA is report the operati= onal value
of configuration data nodes. =C2=A0 For devices that d= o not have noticeable delays to apply configuration,
there won= 9;t be any difference between the config=3Dtrue nodes in <running> an= d <operational> .
For these devices, NMDA is not interestin= g and even irrelevant.

<= div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">


Please learn to add new functionality in a way that does not break shipping code.
I have not proposed breaking any shipping code.

I've suggested deprecating /data - this doesn't break existing clients, but warns them that the functionality will disappear in future.


This c= ertainly breaks existing clients.
There is no reason for the func= tionality to disappear in the future except
the NETCONF WG does n= ot care about stability.

If you need the functiona= lity of NMDA, then use NMDA for RESTCONF.

=C2=A0
I've suggested defining a version of /data that keeps the useful config abstraction but without the co-mingled state issues.=C2=A0 Yes, this would be on a new URL, or possibly defined as an abstract datastore.


Mov= ing /restconf/data or changing it (as Lada suggests) is not backward compat= ible





Use some other URL besides /restconf/data for new functionality.
Of course, I've never intentionally suggested otherwise.

Thanks,
Rob





Andy
=C2=A0

Andy


However, I still regard automatically committing the contents of <candidate> from a RESTCONF operation as very risky behaviour.

=C2=A0
Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF. They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent).
They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - the commit/reset
operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too.

Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained statements like

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Applications that require more complex transa= ction capabilities might
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF.

Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the present draft was
exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting to NETCONF.
I would like RESTCONF to be a fully viable alternative to NETCONF. Particularly because it have easily handle alternative encodings.


Operations are 1-shot and stateless.

RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described in RFC 6241
does not work for RESTCONF.
This point that Andy raised concerns me.=C2=A0 If RESTCONF ha= s no sessions that how does a <staging> datastore work?

My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the comments by Rob and
Juergen, I am now inclined to use <running> rather than <intended> as the commit
target. Then, if <running> happens to be locked (from outside, e.g. NETCONF),
then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing to do with
sessions.
Note that in my previous comments, I wasn't saying that RESTCONF has to support <candidate>, or <locks>, but I was trying to explain how private candidate datastores could inter-operate with them if they were supported.

Thanks,
Rob



Lada

Andy




On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton
<rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:

Hi Lada,


On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
Hi Rob,

thanks for your comments, please see inline.

Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:

Hi Lada,

I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments
below.

So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not
RESTCONF
needs this functionality or not.=C2=A0 I've= heard some operators state
that
they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and
hence
don't have the need for a server side staging area.=C2=A0 Perhaps a good
question to ask in Montreal?

=C2=A0 I think what you mean is an analogy to git= , where all changes are
applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the
server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I think
with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. An= d also, the client
functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain
browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTCONF
extended according to my draft.

=C2=A0 No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a single
client commit.

I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the
configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request
should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the interaction,
although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on the
client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update
isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm.

=C2=A0 I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually the
data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target
config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this
is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow.

=C2=A0 This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into
<running>.=C2=A0 Either the config change can be merged without errors and
validates successfully (via <intended>), or the merge fails, or validation
fails.=C2=A0 If either the merge or validate fails then <running> is not changed,
the config change is rejected, and the client notified.

Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the
expected usages of private candidate datastores.
=C2=A0 The aim is to enable transactions and concurre= nt R/W access of multiple
clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody
else may want to propose a client-side solution.

=C2=A0 Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer.=C2=A0 I don't think
that there is anything to standardize here.

I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable
servers and restricted clients, or vice versa.

The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical
solution,
and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-)

1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging
areas
(aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared
lockable
candidate datastore.=C2=A0 This follows my beli= ef that loosely coupled
concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g.
with
shared locking).

2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention <intended> at all.
Instead, everywhere you mention <intended> then you should be saying
<running>.=C2=A0 I.e. your staging datastores should update <running> on
a
commit operation, just like a commit of <candidate> updates
<running>.
<intended> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to
<running>, and as such is a tangential consideration.

=C2=A0 The main reason for using <intended> is that the target datastore
into
which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all
times. <running> has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and
under
NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have <running>
and
<intended> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this
simplification.

=C2=A0 <running> has the configuration suppli= ed by the user before any
template
expansion, or inactive config removal.
<intended> is the same configuration data, but after template expansion,
inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations that
the server might do.

If the device doesn't do "template expansi= on, inactive config removal,
and any other random config manipulations", th= en <intended> is trivially
the same as <running>.

Whenever <running> is due to be changed, <intended> is also updated at
the same time, and validated.

Hence <intended> is always valid, and by implication, so is <running>,
since you cannot make a change to <running> without also updating, and
validating <intended> at the exact same time.=C2=A0 I.e. they succeed or fail
together.

I think that your <staging> datastore design works much better with NMDA
if you update <running> instead of <intended>.


=C2=A0 Yes, but <running> can be writable or no= t, may be locked and may be
invalid.

=C2=A0 Yes, and that is all fine.

If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of
naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same device, I
want to avoid their interference as much as possible.

=C2=A0 You can't.=C2=A0 Ultimately there are two me= chanisms writing the same data, they
need to be sympathetic to each other.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0My idea is that
contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at <intended>.

=C2=A0 Alas. I don't think that fits well with the = NMDA architecture at all.=C2=A0 The
NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configuration
operations combine at <running> rather than <intended>.=C2=A0 This is also the
merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used.

The purpose of <intended> is as a mechanism to handle template expansion,
inactive config, and possibly other default server config.=C2=A0 It isn't meant
to be another configuration merge point.

3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think
that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients
interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as
per
draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1.=C2=A0 The new staging
datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit
from
ietf-datastores:datastore identity.=C2=A0 I thi= nk that this probably also
more closely aligns to restful principals.

=C2=A0 Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore really
is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in
particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging
datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the
client could also interact with {+restconf}/data.

=C2=A0 The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired*
configuration with the *actual* operational state.=C2=A0 This combination
cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady
state.

I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I think
that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via
explicit datastores.

=C2=A0 If this is done, then it would make sense to d= o what you suggest. For
the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040
can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can
be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts.

=C2=A0
E.g.
(1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the
configuration, then it just writes to <running>.
(2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it does
it via <staging> and a commit to <running>.=C2=A0 From a system perspective this is pretty much the same as (1) any way.
(3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writes
to <candidate> and then commits configuration to <running>.
(4) If <running> can be locked, then attempts by other clients to commit
to <running> when it is locked must fail.

=C2=A0 This is all very complicated, I don't want= to force RESTCONF users into
learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid.

=C2=A0 It is not complicated, particularly if the serve= r doesn't implement locking
of shared candidate.

I prefer explicit behavior.

E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the contents of a
shared <candidate> datastore makes the two protocols work together simpler.
More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and potentially very
bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the NETCONF client
isn't employing locking).

4) So, I think that the <staging> datastore itself only contains the
proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to
<running>
when they are committed.=C2=A0 I think that clients may also want to see
the
combined configuration of the current contents of <running> with the
delta held in <staging> applied.=C2=A0 Th= is could be exposed either as
(i) a
new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-
only
datastore.=C2=A0 A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't
support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would
be
to one of the other two latter options.

=C2=A0 Do you mean to be able to see the result o= f a "dry run" of a commit?
This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation
it
is pretty trivial.

=C2=A0 let me ask two different question first:

(1) If I call GET on <staging> then do I see just what I have changed
(and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I see
all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in?

=C2=A0 After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes
(conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of <intended>. If you
do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo
NACM).=C2=A0 However, you don't see any changes t= hat have been done to
<intended> in the mean time.

=C2=A0 OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta against
the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with the
latest baseline version.=C2=A0 Obviously, there would need to be a mechanism to
report merge conflicts.

(2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private
changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the
point in time that <staging> was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. it
always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running?

=C2=A0 In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when
<staging> was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it would
be possible to let <staging> track the changes in intended as long as
the user doesn't start editing it.

5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then
should they also be added to NETCONF?=C2=A0 If they are added to both
then I
think that they should be added in the same way, as much as
possible,
perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive
text?=C2=A0 In general, I like (Kent's?) id= ea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC
that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the
individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing
similar
or equivalent text in two places.

=C2=A0 But private candidates are already an opti= on in NETCONF, right? One
possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared
candidates
have known problems.

=C2=A0 How do you do private candidate in NETCONF?= =C2=A0 I thought that it was only
shared candidate that had been standardized.

=C2=A0 RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The candidate configuration can b= e shared among multiple sessions.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Unless a client has specific info= rmation that the candidate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configuration is not shared, it M= UST assume that other sessions are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0able to modify the candidate conf= iguration at the same time.

=C2=A0 This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is generally regarded
as being shared, not private.

Thanks,
Rob


Lada

Thanks,
Rob


Thanks, Lada

But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly
warrants some WG discussion.

Thanks,
Rob

=C2=A0 ___________________________________________= ____
Netconf mailing list
N= etconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/netconf





--00000000000021408f0571334dbb-- From nobody Tue Jul 17 08:23:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6435F130DFF for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:23:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZAJvut--1iM8 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26CE8130E58 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:23:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=96773; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531841015; x=1533050615; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=Hz02Pog0vp7e62fTPKSOP4Nop0HpvKWecwqhlt/kiEY=; b=Df9rJwmk+2d0PDJ4wemWwRUCDnCPBgwQW6BsZNkqSmgjUIzPsThPfXMS mBlReS5fFlrKYUyI+scs/VMtrMQdeg8WwectiEcP9cgzPu9ZDCjpsNr96 eSjvRUIQVmTNN7evHd4/AX7I02hka8hw00PLAQcfzfcOhQxm9b+z/tcgd c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DIAQDSCE5b/xbLJq1TAQgZAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBBwEBAQEBgxsEgQ1NIBIog32IY409LHWUWIFmCxgBCoQDRgKDETc?= =?us-ascii?q?VAQIBAQIBAQJtHAyFNgEBAQMBAQEYAQhKAQYFBQsLEgYgAQYDAgInHwMOBg0?= =?us-ascii?q?GAgEBF4MFAYF3CA+qe4EuH4Q8hWUFilk/gREngjU1gxkBAQKBNAUOAYMXglU?= =?us-ascii?q?Ch0QPMYV+g2+HawmPIQaBQ4QRgkglhSSHfYRChVWBVyImgSwzGggbFTuCaYF?= =?us-ascii?q?1gUEBAodchT0dIzABinkrghsBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,366,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="5173364" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Jul 2018 15:23:32 +0000 Received: from [10.61.227.226] ([10.61.227.226]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6HFNV27022255; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:23:31 GMT To: Andy Bierman Cc: Ladislav Lhotka , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <2ca04593-055f-f3d3-26fb-a04e4d7265cc@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:23:30 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A992DEA96DB1394D960A0DC4" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:23:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A992DEA96DB1394D960A0DC4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 17/07/2018 11:07, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 3:52 AM, Robert Wilton > wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > > On 16/07/2018 22:08, Andy Bierman wrote: >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Robert Wilton > > wrote: >> >> Hi Lada, >> >> >> On 15/07/2018 09:48, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >> >> On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I do not think this problem should be worked on for >> RESTCONF. >> In the future, a protocol-independent solution for >> concurrent edit operations might be interesting. >> >> Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-) >> >> Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data >> "unified" URI should be >> deprecated >> or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full. >> >> The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, >> the only catch is that >> nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see >> anything in RFC 8040 >> that prevents postponing the application of configuration >> changes. >> >> BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data. >> >> My opposition to {+restconf}/data is that works nicely with >> operational state.  I.e. it has the same issues as NETCONF >> operation, which is why was introduced in >> the NETCONF NMDA draft. >> >> >> It works for the functionality that was defined before NMDA existed. >> The point of the unified /restconf/data URI is that it is the >> same on every server. >> There is no discovery phase and 1 of N editing models.  The >> server hides >> those details to simplify client programming. >> >> Defining a version of {+restconf}/data that abstracts and >> hides , commits, updating startup is fine, and we >> discussed this as option as part of NMDA. >> >> >> This is what the RFC 8040 version of /restconf/data does > > Yes, the 8040 version does this, but it also co-mingles state > which can be a problem (both for NMDA and pre-NMDA). > > > > > > So far the only standard thing you can do with NMDA is report the > operational value > of configuration data nodes.   For devices that do not have noticeable > delays to apply configuration, > there won't be any difference between the config=true nodes in > and . > For these devices, NMDA is not interesting and even irrelevant. Assuming that the devices are bug free and never fail to immediately apply the configuration then you are right.  Or equally, for some networks these could be considered rare corner case conditions when dropping back to manual intervention is fine. > >> >> >> Please learn to add new functionality in a way that does not >> break shipping code. > I have not proposed breaking any shipping code. > > I've suggested deprecating /data - this doesn't break existing > clients, but warns them that the functionality will disappear in > future. > > > > This certainly breaks existing clients. This could be a RESTCONF 2.0.  Servers could support both versions and leave it to clients to decide which version to use.  I.e. leave it to the market to decide whether backwards compatibility is required. > There is no reason for the functionality to disappear in the future except > the NETCONF WG does not care about stability. I disagree.  I think that the existing functionality only models simple devices under optimistic scenarios.  My belief as networks move towards more automation, accuracy of the operational data will become more important/significant. Thanks, Rob > > If you need the functionality of NMDA, then use NMDA for RESTCONF. > > I've suggested defining a version of /data that keeps the useful > config abstraction but without the co-mingled state issues. Yes, > this would be on a new URL, or possibly defined as an abstract > datastore. > > > > Moving /restconf/data or changing it (as Lada suggests) is not > backward compatible > > > > >> >> Use some other URL besides /restconf/data for new functionality. > Of course, I've never intentionally suggested otherwise. > > Thanks, > Rob > > >> > > > Andy > >> >> Andy >> >> >> However, I still regard automatically committing the contents >> of from a RESTCONF operation as very risky behaviour. >> >> >> Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF. >> They can use simple curl commands (or library >> equivalent). >> >> They would be able to do the same with just one extra >> step - the commit/reset >> operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too. >> >> Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained >> statements like >> >>     Applications that require more complex transaction >> capabilities might >>     consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF. >> >> Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing >> the present draft was >> exactly to enable some of these capabilities without >> resorting to NETCONF. >> >> I would like RESTCONF to be a fully viable alternative to >> NETCONF. Particularly because it have easily handle >> alternative encodings. >> >> >> Operations are 1-shot and stateless. >> >> RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session >> locking described in RFC 6241 >> does not work for RESTCONF. >> >> This point that Andy raised concerns me.  If RESTCONF has no >> sessions that how does a datastore work? >> >> My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the >> comments by Rob and >> Juergen, I am now inclined to use rather than >> as the commit >> target. Then, if happens to be locked (from >> outside, e.g. NETCONF), >> then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has >> nothing to do with >> sessions. >> >> Note that in my previous comments, I wasn't saying that >> RESTCONF has to support , or , but I was >> trying to explain how private candidate datastores could >> inter-operate with them if they were supported. >> >> Thanks, >> Rob >> >> >> >> Lada >> >> Andy >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton >> > > wrote: >> >> On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >> >> Robert Wilton > > writes: >> >> Hi Lada, >> >> >> On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >> >> Hi Rob, >> >> thanks for your comments, please see >> inline. >> >> Robert Wilton > > writes: >> >> Hi Lada, >> >> I've had a read of this draft, >> and have provided some comments >> below. >> >> So, my top level comment is that >> I don't know whether or not >> RESTCONF >> needs this functionality or not.  >> I've heard some operators state >> that >> they think that clients can just >> construct an "atomic" change, and >> hence >> don't have the need for a server >> side staging area.  Perhaps a good >> question to ask in Montreal? >> >>   I think what you mean is an analogy >> to git, where all changes are >> applied on the client's side and then >> new commits are pushed to the >> server. However, git was designed for >> this mode of operation - I think >> with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so >> efficient. And also, the client >> functionality would be probably >> difficult to implement in a plain >> browser whereas browser-based clients >> can be easily used with RESTCONF >> extended according to my draft. >> >>   No, I wasn't thinking that they would >> be separate commits, but a single >> client commit. >> >> I guess it may depend on whether it is a >> machine constructing the >> configuration change (in which case >> merging it into a single request >> should be plausibly straight forward), or >> human's doing the interaction, >> although even then I still wonder whether >> creating an edit buffer on the >> client side, and then pushing that to the >> server as a single update >> isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. >> >>   I agree that a lot can be done on the >> client side, but eventually the >> data has to be sent to the server, and it is >> possible that the target >> config datastore has changed in the mean time >> by another client - this >> is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow. >> >>   This is resolved at the time that any config >> change is merged into >> .  Either the config change can be >> merged without errors and >> validates successfully (via ), or the >> merge fails, or validation >> fails.  If either the merge or validate fails >> then is not changed, >> the config change is rejected, and the client >> notified. >> >> Perhaps the draft could have a background >> that explains some of the >> expected usages of private candidate >> datastores. >> >>   The aim is to enable transactions and >> concurrent R/W access of multiple >> clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on >> the server side, somebody >> else may want to propose a client-side solution. >> >>   Clients can already do it today, as per my >> previous answer.  I don't think >> that there is anything to standardize here. >> >> I think both may be potentially useful - one >> can have capable >> servers and restricted clients, or vice versa. >> >> The rest of my comments below, >> apply to the proposed technical >> solution, >> and obviously only apply if this >> is a needed enhancement. :-) >> >> 1) Generally, I definitely prefer >> the idea of per session staging >> areas >> (aka private candidates) >> described in this draft over a shared >> lockable >> candidate datastore.  This >> follows my belief that loosely >> coupled >> concurrent systems are more >> robust than tightly coupled ones >> (e.g. >> with >> shared locking). >> >> 2) I don't think that this draft >> needs to mention at all. >> Instead, everywhere you mention >> then you should be saying >> .  I.e. your staging >> datastores should update on >> a >> commit operation, just like a >> commit of updates >> . >> is always just updated >> as a side effect of a write to >> , and as such is a >> tangential consideration. >> >>   The main reason for using >> is that the target datastore >> into >> which staging datastores are merged >> has to be valid at all >> times. has somewhat fuzzy >> semantics both in NETCONF and >> under >> NMDA. But yes, the text also says >> that essentially we have >> and >> being the same. NMDA >> explicitly permits this >> simplification. >> >>   has the configuration >> supplied by the user before any >> template >> expansion, or inactive config removal. >> is the same configuration >> data, but after template expansion, >> inactive config removal, and any other >> random config manipulations that >> the server might do. >> >> If the device doesn't do "template >> expansion, inactive config removal, >> and any other random config >> manipulations", then is trivially >> the same as . >> >> Whenever is due to be changed, >> is also updated at >> the same time, and validated. >> >> Hence is always valid, and by >> implication, so is , >> since you cannot make a change to >> without also updating, and >> validating at the exact same >> time.  I.e. they succeed or fail >> together. >> >> I think that your datastore >> design works much better with NMDA >> if you update instead of >> . >> >> >>   Yes, but can be writable or not, >> may be locked and may be >> invalid. >> >>   Yes, and that is all fine. >> >> If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is >> perhaps just a matter of >> naming, but if NETCONF is used along with >> RESTCONF on the same device, I >> want to avoid their interference as much as >> possible. >> >>   You can't.  Ultimately there are two mechanisms >> writing the same data, they >> need to be sympathetic to each other. >> >>    My idea is that >> contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only >> meet at . >> >>   Alas. I don't think that fits well with the >> NMDA architecture at all.  The >> NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional >> client configuration >> operations combine at rather than >> .  This is also the >> merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF >> are being used. >> >> The purpose of is as a mechanism to >> handle template expansion, >> inactive config, and possibly other default >> server config.  It isn't meant >> to be another configuration merge point. >> >> 3) Rather than having clients >> interact via {+restconf}/data, I >> think >> that it would be much better to >> require NMDA and then have clients >> interact via >> {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, >> as >> per >> draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 >> section 3.1.  The new staging >> datastore identity should also be >> defined in your module to inherit >> from >> ietf-datastores:datastore >> identity.  I think that this >> probably also >> more closely aligns to restful >> principals. >> >>   Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear >> what the "unified" datastore really >> is. We wanted to make the semantics >> clear and explicit and, in >> particular, permit configuration >> edits only via the staging >> datastore. With your suggestion, it >> is not clear to me whether the >> client could also interact with >> {+restconf}/data. >> >>   The problem with {+restconf}/data is >> that is combines the *desired* >> configuration with the *actual* >> operational state.  This combination >> cannot always be done in a sane way if >> the system isn't in a steady >> state. >> >> I think that we should be trying to >> deprecate {+restconf}/data, I think >> that cleaner/simpler semantics can be >> achieved by interacting via >> explicit datastores. >> >>   If this is done, then it would make sense >> to do what you suggest. For >> the time being, the advantage is that clients >> only suporting RFC 8040 >> can be used with my enhancements - the commit >> and reset operations can >> be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts. >> >> >> E.g. >> (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an >> atomic update to the >> configuration, then it just writes to >> . >> (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private >> staged configuration then it does >> it via and a commit to >> .  From a system perspective >> this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. >> (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is >> required, then a client writes >> to and then commits >> configuration to . >> (4) If can be locked, then >> attempts by other clients to commit >> to when it is locked must fail. >> >>   This is all very complicated, I don't want >> to force RESTCONF users into >> learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid. >> >>   It is not complicated, particularly if the >> server doesn't implement locking >> of shared candidate. >> >> I prefer explicit behavior. >> >> E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically >> committing the contents of a >> shared datastore makes the two >> protocols work together simpler. >> More likely it was occasionally cause very >> surprising, and potentially very >> bad, things happening to a devices configuration >> (e.g. if the NETCONF client >> isn't employing locking). >> >> 4) So, I think that the >> datastore itself only contains the >> proposed changes (additions, >> modifications, and deletes) to >> >> when they are committed.  I think >> that clients may also want to see >> the >> combined configuration of the >> current contents of >> with the >> delta held in applied.  >> This could be exposed either as >> (i) a >> new RPC, (ii) as an extra query >> parameter or (iii) As another read- >> only >> datastore.  A new RPC has the >> disadvantage that it probably >> wouldn't >> support all the query parameters, >> so my instinctive preference would >> be >> to one of the other two latter >> options. >> >>   Do you mean to be able to see the >> result of a "dry run" of a commit? >> This would be certainly possible and, >> in fact, in our implementation >> it >> is pretty trivial. >> >>   let me ask two different question first: >> >> (1) If I call GET on then do I >> see just what I have changed >> (and explicitly don't see anything that I >> haven't changed), or do I see >> all of the base configuration with my >> private changes merged in? >> >>   After you do commit or reset, your staging >> repository becomes >> (conceptually) an exact, private and writable >> copy of . If you >> do some changes, you see them along with the >> other config data (modulo >> NACM).  However, you don't see any changes >> that have been done to >> in the mean time. >> >>   OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to >> get/see the delta against >> the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to >> sync and merge with the >> latest baseline version.  Obviously, there would >> need to be a mechanism to >> report merge conflicts. >> >> (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the >> base configuration + private >> changes merged in, then is it the base >> configuration fixed from the >> point in time that was >> initialized? Or does it float, i.e. it >> always updates to the latest committed >> base configuration in running? >> >>   In our implementation, it is the data from >> the point of time when >> was last initialized (after commit >> or reset). I think it would >> be possible to let track the >> changes in intended as long as >> the user doesn't start editing it. >> >> 5) If private candidate >> datastores are being added to >> RESTCONF, then >> should they also be added to >> NETCONF?  If they are added to both >> then I >> think that they should be added >> in the same way, as much as >> possible, >> perhaps both could be updated in >> a single draft to save repetitive >> text?  In general, I like >> (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG >> writing a RFC >> that describes all the common >> parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF >> that the >> individual protocol docs can then >> reference rather than writing >> similar >> or equivalent text in two places. >> >>   But private candidates are already >> an option in NETCONF, right? One >> possibility would be to make it the >> ONLY option, because shared >> candidates >> have known problems. >> >>   How do you do private candidate in >> NETCONF?  I thought that it was only >> shared candidate that had been standardized. >> >>   RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1: >> >>      The candidate configuration can be >> shared among multiple sessions. >>      Unless a client has specific information >> that the candidate >>      configuration is not shared, it MUST >> assume that other sessions are >>      able to modify the candidate >> configuration at the same time. >> >>   This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate >> datastore is generally regarded >> as being shared, not private. >> >> Thanks, >> Rob >> >> >> Lada >> >> Thanks, >> Rob >> >> >> Thanks, Lada >> >> But otherwise, I think that it is >> an interesting idea, and certainly >> warrants some WG discussion. >> >> Thanks, >> Rob >> >>   _______________________________________________ >> Netconf mailing list >> Netconf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >> >> >> >> >> > > --------------A992DEA96DB1394D960A0DC4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 17/07/2018 11:07, Andy Bierman wrote:


On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 3:52 AM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi Andy,


On 16/07/2018 22:08, Andy Bierman wrote:


On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Lada,


On 15/07/2018 09:48, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
Hi,

I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF.
In the future, a protocol-independent solution for
concurrent edit operations might be interesting.
Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-)

Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI should be
deprecated
or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full.
The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the only catch is that
nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see anything in RFC 8040
that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes.

BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data.
My opposition to {+restconf}/data is that works nicely with operational state.  I.e. it has the same issues as NETCONF <get> operation, which is why <get-data> was introduced in the NETCONF NMDA draft.


It works for the functionality that was defined before NMDA existed.
The point of the unified /restconf/data URI is that it is the same on every server.
There is no discovery phase and 1 of N editing models.  The server hides
those details to simplify client programming.

 
Defining a version of {+restconf}/data that abstracts and hides <candidate>, commits, updating startup is fine, and we discussed this as option as part of NMDA.


This is what the RFC 8040 version of /restconf/data does

Yes, the 8040 version does this, but it also co-mingles state which can be a problem (both for NMDA and pre-NMDA).





So far the only standard thing you can do with NMDA is report the operational value
of configuration data nodes.   For devices that do not have noticeable delays to apply configuration,
there won't be any difference between the config=true nodes in <running> and <operational> .
For these devices, NMDA is not interesting and even irrelevant.
Assuming that the devices are bug free and never fail to immediately apply the configuration then you are right.  Or equally, for some networks these could be considered rare corner case conditions when dropping back to manual intervention is fine.




Please learn to add new functionality in a way that does not break shipping code.
I have not proposed breaking any shipping code.

I've suggested deprecating /data - this doesn't break existing clients, but warns them that the functionality will disappear in future.


This certainly breaks existing clients.
This could be a RESTCONF 2.0.  Servers could support both versions and leave it to clients to decide which version to use.  I.e. leave it to the market to decide whether backwards compatibility is required.

There is no reason for the functionality to disappear in the future except
the NETCONF WG does not care about stability.
I disagree.  I think that the existing functionality only models simple devices under optimistic scenarios.  My belief as networks move towards more automation, accuracy of the operational data will become more important/significant.

Thanks,
Rob



If you need the functionality of NMDA, then use NMDA for RESTCONF.

 
I've suggested defining a version of /data that keeps the useful config abstraction but without the co-mingled state issues.  Yes, this would be on a new URL, or possibly defined as an abstract datastore.


Moving /restconf/data or changing it (as Lada suggests) is not backward compatible





Use some other URL besides /restconf/data for new functionality.
Of course, I've never intentionally suggested otherwise.

Thanks,
Rob





Andy
 

Andy


However, I still regard automatically committing the contents of <candidate> from a RESTCONF operation as very risky behaviour.

 
Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF.
They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent).
They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - the commit/reset
operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too.

Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained statements like

    Applications that require more complex transaction capabilities might
    consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF.

Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the present draft was
exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting to NETCONF.
I would like RESTCONF to be a fully viable alternative to NETCONF. Particularly because it have easily handle alternative encodings.


Operations are 1-shot and stateless.

RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described in RFC 6241
does not work for RESTCONF.
This point that Andy raised concerns me.  If RESTCONF has no sessions that how does a <staging> datastore work?

My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the comments by Rob and
Juergen, I am now inclined to use <running> rather than <intended> as the commit
target. Then, if <running> happens to be locked (from outside, e.g. NETCONF),
then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing to do with
sessions.
Note that in my previous comments, I wasn't saying that RESTCONF has to support <candidate>, or <locks>, but I was trying to explain how private candidate datastores could inter-operate with them if they were supported.

Thanks,
Rob



Lada

Andy




On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton
<rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:

Hi Lada,


On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
Hi Rob,

thanks for your comments, please see inline.

Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:

Hi Lada,

I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some comments
below.

So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or not
RESTCONF
needs this functionality or not.  I've heard some operators state
that
they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" change, and
hence
don't have the need for a server side staging area.  Perhaps a good
question to ask in Montreal?

  I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all changes are
applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed to the
server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation - I think
with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the client
functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a plain
browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used with RESTCONF
extended according to my draft.

  No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, but a single
client commit.

I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing the
configuration change (in which case merging it into a single request
should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the interaction,
although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit buffer on the
client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single update
isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm.

  I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but eventually the
data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the target
config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client - this
is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow.

  This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged into
<running>.  Either the config change can be merged without errors and
validates successfully (via <intended>), or the merge fails, or validation
fails.  If either the merge or validate fails then <running> is not changed,
the config change is rejected, and the client notified.

Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some of the
expected usages of private candidate datastores.

  The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access of multiple
clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, somebody
else may want to propose a client-side solution.

  Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer.  I don't think
that there is anything to standardize here.

I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable
servers and restricted clients, or vice versa.

The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed technical
solution,
and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. :-)

1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session staging
areas
(aka private candidates) described in this draft over a shared
lockable
candidate datastore.  This follows my belief that loosely coupled
concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled ones (e.g.
with
shared locking).

2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention <intended> at all.
Instead, everywhere you mention <intended> then you should be saying
<running>.  I.e. your staging datastores should update <running> on
a
commit operation, just like a commit of <candidate> updates
<running>.
<intended> is always just updated as a side effect of a write to
<running>, and as such is a tangential consideration.

  The main reason for using <intended> is that the target datastore
into
which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all
times. <running> has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in NETCONF and
under
NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have <running>
and
<intended> being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this
simplification.

  <running> has the configuration supplied by the user before any
template
expansion, or inactive config removal.
<intended> is the same configuration data, but after template expansion,
inactive config removal, and any other random config manipulations that
the server might do.

If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config removal,
and any other random config manipulations", then <intended> is trivially
the same as <running>.

Whenever <running> is due to be changed, <intended> is also updated at
the same time, and validated.

Hence <intended> is always valid, and by implication, so is <running>,
since you cannot make a change to <running> without also updating, and
validating <intended> at the exact same time.  I.e. they succeed or fail
together.

I think that your <staging> datastore design works much better with NMDA
if you update <running> instead of <intended>.


  Yes, but <running> can be writable or not, may be locked and may be
invalid.

  Yes, and that is all fine.

If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a matter of
naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same device, I
want to avoid their interference as much as possible.

  You can't.  Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the same data, they
need to be sympathetic to each other.

   My idea is that
contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at <intended>.

  Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture at all.  The
NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client configuration
operations combine at <running> rather than <intended>.  This is also the
merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used.

The purpose of <intended> is as a mechanism to handle template expansion,
inactive config, and possibly other default server config.  It isn't meant
to be another configuration merge point.

3) Rather than having clients interact via {+restconf}/data, I think
that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have clients
interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf-transactions:staging, as
per
draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1.  The new staging
datastore identity should also be defined in your module to inherit
from
ietf-datastores:datastore identity.  I think that this probably also
more closely aligns to restful principals.

  Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" datastore really
is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, in
particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging
datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me whether the
client could also interact with {+restconf}/data.

  The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the *desired*
configuration with the *actual* operational state.  This combination
cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a steady
state.

I think that we should be trying to deprecate {+restconf}/data, I think
that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting via
explicit datastores.

  If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you suggest. For
the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC 8040
can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset operations can
be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts.

 
E.g.
(1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the
configuration, then it just writes to <running>.
(2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration then it does
it via <staging> and a commit to <running>.  From a system perspective
this is pretty much the same as (1) any way.
(3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a client writes
to <candidate> and then commits configuration to <running>.
(4) If <running> can be locked, then attempts by other clients to commit
to <running> when it is locked must fail.

  This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF users into
learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid.

  It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't implement locking
of shared candidate.

I prefer explicit behavior.

E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the contents of a
shared <candidate> datastore makes the two protocols work together simpler.
More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and potentially very
bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the NETCONF client
isn't employing locking).

4) So, I think that the <staging> datastore itself only contains the
proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) to
<running>
when they are committed.  I think that clients may also want to see
the
combined configuration of the current contents of <running> with the
delta held in <staging> applied.  This could be exposed either as
(i) a
new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As another read-
only
datastore.  A new RPC has the disadvantage that it probably wouldn't
support all the query parameters, so my instinctive preference would
be
to one of the other two latter options.

  Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" of a commit?
This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our implementation
it
is pretty trivial.

  let me ask two different question first:

(1) If I call GET on <staging> then do I see just what I have changed
(and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or do I see
all of the base configuration with my private changes merged in?

  After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes
(conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of <intended>. If you
do some changes, you see them along with the other config data (modulo
NACM).  However, you don't see any changes that have been done to
<intended> in the mean time.

  OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the delta against
the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge with the
latest baseline version.  Obviously, there would need to be a mechanism to
report merge conflicts.

(2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + private
changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed from the
point in time that <staging> was initialized? Or does it float, i.e. it
always updates to the latest committed base configuration in running?

  In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time when
<staging> was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think it would
be possible to let <staging> track the changes in intended as long as
the user doesn't start editing it.

5) If private candidate datastores are being added to RESTCONF, then
should they also be added to NETCONF?  If they are added to both
then I
think that they should be added in the same way, as much as
possible,
perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save repetitive
text?  In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG writing a RFC
that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and RESTCONF that the
individual protocol docs can then reference rather than writing
similar
or equivalent text in two places.

  But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, right? One
possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because shared
candidates
have known problems.

  How do you do private candidate in NETCONF?  I thought that it was only
shared candidate that had been standardized.

  RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1:

     The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple sessions.
     Unless a client has specific information that the candidate
     configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other sessions are
     able to modify the candidate configuration at the same time.

  This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is generally regarded
as being shared, not private.

Thanks,
Rob


Lada

Thanks,
Rob


Thanks, Lada

But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and certainly
warrants some WG discussion.

Thanks,
Rob

  _______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf






--------------A992DEA96DB1394D960A0DC4-- From nobody Tue Jul 17 08:32:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E28130DC0 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nic.cz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4IGiEAohJd7v for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76590130FBF for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from birdie (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:c2e5:fc72:9ee5:1635]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BEFA8604F5; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 17:31:59 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1531841520; bh=EvOJm7ryBVGL9AUmibgfqQayitEPky3D+W5nICA4KKo=; h=From:To:Date; b=XitWe5pQoJDy/1NnGDnCHLJ2Ux83Hr4KHSi1RxFBtFLiFy78oHG7YtrMkGFPcAXmQ DhELIdNydekOtAYLWA3kOQ7VOSCq7sM2t/t4Xhm0B6UQCeYD8ceQ7E5NodLgksjw7t mKe9TbAo45pXbPOHBm6oJFIMA1bV02Cqr3lP4Mew= Message-ID: From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Andy Bierman , Robert Wilton Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:31:58 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> Organization: CZ.NIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.28.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.2 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:32:22 -0000 On Tue, 2018-07-17 at 08:07 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 3:52 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > > > On 16/07/2018 22:08, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Robert Wilton wrote: > > > > Hi Lada, > > > > > > > > > > > > On 15/07/2018 09:48, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 2018-07-13 at 08:16 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not think this problem should be worked on for RESTCONF. > > > > > > In the future, a protocol-independent solution for > > > > > > concurrent edit operations might be interesting. > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like a good plan for the next two decades. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > Very strongly disagree that the /restconf/data "unified" URI should > > > > > > be > > > > > > deprecated > > > > > > or that requiring multiple editing steps is REST-full. > > > > > > > > > > > The editing steps are exactly the same for a given user, the only > > > > > catch is that > > > > > nothing happens as a result of the editing. I don't see anything in > > > > > RFC 8040 > > > > > that prevents postponing the application of configuration changes. > > > > > > > > > > BTW, I also don't like deprecating {+restconf}/data. > > > > > > > > > My opposition to {+restconf}/data is that works nicely with operational > > > > state. I.e. it has the same issues as NETCONF operation, which is > > > > why was introduced in the NETCONF NMDA draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It works for the functionality that was defined before NMDA existed. > > > The point of the unified /restconf/data URI is that it is the same on > > > every server. > > > There is no discovery phase and 1 of N editing models. The server hides > > > those details to simplify client programming. > > > > > > > > > > Defining a version of {+restconf}/data that abstracts and hides > > > > , commits, updating startup is fine, and we discussed this as > > > > option as part of NMDA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what the RFC 8040 version of /restconf/data does > > > > Yes, the 8040 version does this, but it also co-mingles state which can be a > > problem (both for NMDA and pre-NMDA). > > > > > > > > > > So far the only standard thing you can do with NMDA is report the operational > value > of configuration data nodes. For devices that do not have noticeable delays > to apply configuration, > there won't be any difference between the config=true nodes in and > . > For these devices, NMDA is not interesting and even irrelevant. > > > > > > > Please learn to add new functionality in a way that does not break > > > shipping code. > > I have not proposed breaking any shipping code. > > > > I've suggested deprecating /data - this doesn't break existing clients, but > > warns them that the functionality will disappear in future. > > > > > This certainly breaks existing clients. > There is no reason for the functionality to disappear in the future except > the NETCONF WG does not care about stability. > > If you need the functionality of NMDA, then use NMDA for RESTCONF. > > > > I've suggested defining a version of /data that keeps the useful config > > abstraction but without the co-mingled state issues. Yes, this would be on > > a new URL, or possibly defined as an abstract datastore. > > > > > Moving /restconf/data or changing it (as Lada suggests) is not backward > compatible It depends on what you mean by compatibility. I believe it is necessary to support NMDA and the new YANG Library in RESTCONF, and then by definition operation state data has to be separated from (editable) configuration data. It is IMO a good thing, and from the viewpoint of RESTCONF implementers it is a considerable simplification. Finally the operators' requirement from the initial 2002 IAB workshop (documented in RFC 3535) becomes satisfied, namely It is necessary to make a clear distinction between configuration data, data that describes operational state and statistics. Some devices make it very hard to determine which parameters were administratively configured and which were obtained via other mechanisms such as routing protocols. Lada > > > > > > > > Use some other URL besides /restconf/data for new functionality. > > Of course, I've never intentionally suggested otherwise. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > > Andy > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > However, I still regard automatically committing the contents of > > > > from a RESTCONF operation as very risky behaviour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Customers like the client-side simplicity of RESTCONF. > > > > > > They can use simple curl commands (or library equivalent). > > > > > > > > > > > They would be able to do the same with just one extra step - the > > > > > commit/reset > > > > > operation, which can be executed via curl easily, too. > > > > > > > > > > Early revisions of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf contained statements > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > Applications that require more complex transaction capabilities > > > > > might > > > > > consider NETCONF instead of RESTCONF. > > > > > > > > > > Is it what you still suggest? My motivation for writing the present > > > > > draft was > > > > > exactly to enable some of these capabilities without resorting to > > > > > NETCONF. > > > > > > > > > I would like RESTCONF to be a fully viable alternative to NETCONF. > > > > Particularly because it have easily handle alternative encodings. > > > > > > > > > > Operations are 1-shot and stateless. > > > > > > > > > > > > RESTCONF has no sessions, so the NETCONF session locking described > > > > > > in RFC 6241 > > > > > > does not work for RESTCONF. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This point that Andy raised concerns me. If RESTCONF has no sessions > > > > that how does a datastore work? > > > > > > > > > My draft does NOT introduce locks. Actually, after the comments by Rob > > > > > and > > > > > Juergen, I am now inclined to use rather than as > > > > > the commit > > > > > target. Then, if happens to be locked (from outside, e.g. > > > > > NETCONF), > > > > > then the commit operation has to be denied, but it has nothing to do > > > > > with > > > > > sessions. > > > > > > > > > Note that in my previous comments, I wasn't saying that RESTCONF has to > > > > support , or , but I was trying to explain how private > > > > candidate datastores could inter-operate with them if they were > > > > supported. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lada > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Robert Wilton > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On 13/07/2018 15:19, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > > > > > > > Robert Wilton writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Lada, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/07/2018 18:22, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Rob, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks for your comments, please see inline. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert Wilton writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Lada, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had a read of this draft, and have provided some > > > > > > > > > > > comments > > > > > > > > > > > below. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, my top level comment is that I don't know whether or > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > RESTCONF > > > > > > > > > > > needs this functionality or not. I've heard some > > > > > > > > > > > operators state > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > they think that clients can just construct an "atomic" > > > > > > > > > > > change, and > > > > > > > > > > > hence > > > > > > > > > > > don't have the need for a server side staging area. > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps a good > > > > > > > > > > > question to ask in Montreal? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what you mean is an analogy to git, where all > > > > > > > > > > changes are > > > > > > > > > > applied on the client's side and then new commits are pushed > > > > > > > > > > to the > > > > > > > > > > server. However, git was designed for this mode of operation > > > > > > > > > > - I think > > > > > > > > > > with RESTCONF it wouldn't be so efficient. And also, the > > > > > > > > > > client > > > > > > > > > > functionality would be probably difficult to implement in a > > > > > > > > > > plain > > > > > > > > > > browser whereas browser-based clients can be easily used > > > > > > > > > > with RESTCONF > > > > > > > > > > extended according to my draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I wasn't thinking that they would be separate commits, > > > > > > > > > but a single > > > > > > > > > client commit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess it may depend on whether it is a machine constructing > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > configuration change (in which case merging it into a single > > > > > > > > > request > > > > > > > > > should be plausibly straight forward), or human's doing the > > > > > > > > > interaction, > > > > > > > > > although even then I still wonder whether creating an edit > > > > > > > > > buffer on the > > > > > > > > > client side, and then pushing that to the server as a single > > > > > > > > > update > > > > > > > > > isn't a slightly cleaner paradigm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that a lot can be done on the client side, but > > > > > > > > eventually the > > > > > > > > data has to be sent to the server, and it is possible that the > > > > > > > > target > > > > > > > > config datastore has changed in the mean time by another client > > > > > > > > - this > > > > > > > > is a conflict that has to be resolved somehow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is resolved at the time that any config change is merged > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > . Either the config change can be merged without errors > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > validates successfully (via ), or the merge fails, or > > > > > > > validation > > > > > > > fails. If either the merge or validate fails then is > > > > > > > not changed, > > > > > > > the config change is rejected, and the client notified. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the draft could have a background that explains some > > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > expected usages of private candidate datastores. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The aim is to enable transactions and concurrent R/W access > > > > > > > > of multiple > > > > > > > > clients. This drafts attempts to solve it on the server side, > > > > > > > > somebody > > > > > > > > else may want to propose a client-side solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clients can already do it today, as per my previous answer. I > > > > > > > don't think > > > > > > > that there is anything to standardize here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think both may be potentially useful - one can have capable > > > > > > > > servers and restricted clients, or vice versa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rest of my comments below, apply to the proposed > > > > > > > > > > > technical > > > > > > > > > > > solution, > > > > > > > > > > > and obviously only apply if this is a needed enhancement. > > > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Generally, I definitely prefer the idea of per session > > > > > > > > > > > staging > > > > > > > > > > > areas > > > > > > > > > > > (aka private candidates) described in this draft over a > > > > > > > > > > > shared > > > > > > > > > > > lockable > > > > > > > > > > > candidate datastore. This follows my belief that loosely > > > > > > > > > > > coupled > > > > > > > > > > > concurrent systems are more robust than tightly coupled > > > > > > > > > > > ones (e.g. > > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > shared locking). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) I don't think that this draft needs to mention > > > > > > > > > > > at all. > > > > > > > > > > > Instead, everywhere you mention then you should > > > > > > > > > > > be saying > > > > > > > > > > > . I.e. your staging datastores should update > > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > commit operation, just like a commit of > > > > > > > > > > > updates > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > is always just updated as a side effect of a > > > > > > > > > > > write to > > > > > > > > > > > , and as such is a tangential consideration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The main reason for using is that the target > > > > > > > > > > datastore > > > > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > > which staging datastores are merged has to be valid at all > > > > > > > > > > times. has somewhat fuzzy semantics both in > > > > > > > > > > NETCONF and > > > > > > > > > > under > > > > > > > > > > NMDA. But yes, the text also says that essentially we have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > being the same. NMDA explicitly permits this > > > > > > > > > > simplification. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > has the configuration supplied by the user before > > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > template > > > > > > > > > expansion, or inactive config removal. > > > > > > > > > is the same configuration data, but after template > > > > > > > > > expansion, > > > > > > > > > inactive config removal, and any other random config > > > > > > > > > manipulations that > > > > > > > > > the server might do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the device doesn't do "template expansion, inactive config > > > > > > > > > removal, > > > > > > > > > and any other random config manipulations", then is > > > > > > > > > trivially > > > > > > > > > the same as . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whenever is due to be changed, is also > > > > > > > > > updated at > > > > > > > > > the same time, and validated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence is always valid, and by implication, so is > > > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > > since you cannot make a change to without also > > > > > > > > > updating, and > > > > > > > > > validating at the exact same time. I.e. they > > > > > > > > > succeed or fail > > > > > > > > > together. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that your datastore design works much better > > > > > > > > > with NMDA > > > > > > > > > if you update instead of . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but can be writable or not, may be locked and > > > > > > > > may be > > > > > > > > invalid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, and that is all fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If RESTCONF is the only protocol, then it is perhaps just a > > > > > > > > matter of > > > > > > > > naming, but if NETCONF is used along with RESTCONF on the same > > > > > > > > device, I > > > > > > > > want to avoid their interference as much as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't. Ultimately there are two mechanisms writing the > > > > > > > same data, they > > > > > > > need to be sympathetic to each other. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My idea is that > > > > > > > > contributions from NETCONF and RESTCONF only meet at . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alas. I don't think that fits well with the NMDA architecture > > > > > > > at all. The > > > > > > > NMDA architecture assumes that all conventional client > > > > > > > configuration > > > > > > > operations combine at rather than . This is > > > > > > > also the > > > > > > > merge point today when both NETCONF and RESTCONF are being used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The purpose of is as a mechanism to handle template > > > > > > > expansion, > > > > > > > inactive config, and possibly other default server config. It > > > > > > > isn't meant > > > > > > > to be another configuration merge point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) Rather than having clients interact via > > > > > > > > > > > {+restconf}/data, I think > > > > > > > > > > > that it would be much better to require NMDA and then have > > > > > > > > > > > clients > > > > > > > > > > > interact via {+restconf}/ds/ietf-restconf- > > > > > > > > > > > transactions:staging, as > > > > > > > > > > > per > > > > > > > > > > > draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-04 section 3.1. The new > > > > > > > > > > > staging > > > > > > > > > > > datastore identity should also be defined in your module > > > > > > > > > > > to inherit > > > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > > ietf-datastores:datastore identity. I think that this > > > > > > > > > > > probably also > > > > > > > > > > > more closely aligns to restful principals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, in RESTCONF it is unclear what the "unified" > > > > > > > > > > datastore really > > > > > > > > > > is. We wanted to make the semantics clear and explicit and, > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > particular, permit configuration edits only via the staging > > > > > > > > > > datastore. With your suggestion, it is not clear to me > > > > > > > > > > whether the > > > > > > > > > > client could also interact with {+restconf}/data. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with {+restconf}/data is that is combines the > > > > > > > > > *desired* > > > > > > > > > configuration with the *actual* operational state. This > > > > > > > > > combination > > > > > > > > > cannot always be done in a sane way if the system isn't in a > > > > > > > > > steady > > > > > > > > > state. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that we should be trying to deprecate > > > > > > > > > {+restconf}/data, I think > > > > > > > > > that cleaner/simpler semantics can be achieved by interacting > > > > > > > > > via > > > > > > > > > explicit datastores. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If this is done, then it would make sense to do what you > > > > > > > > suggest. For > > > > > > > > the time being, the advantage is that clients only suporting RFC > > > > > > > > 8040 > > > > > > > > can be used with my enhancements - the commit and reset > > > > > > > > operations can > > > > > > > > be added separately, e.g as simple curl scripts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E.g. > > > > > > > > > (1) If a RESTCONF client wants to make an atomic update to the > > > > > > > > > configuration, then it just writes to . > > > > > > > > > (2) If a RESTCONF client wants private staged configuration > > > > > > > > > then it does > > > > > > > > > it via and a commit to . From a system > > > > > > > > > perspective > > > > > > > > > this is pretty much the same as (1) any way. > > > > > > > > > (3 ) If a shared candidate datastore is required, then a > > > > > > > > > client writes > > > > > > > > > to and then commits configuration to . > > > > > > > > > (4) If can be locked, then attempts by other clients > > > > > > > > > to commit > > > > > > > > > to when it is locked must fail. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is all very complicated, I don't want to force RESTCONF > > > > > > > > users into > > > > > > > > learning NETCONF first. Keep it simple, stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not complicated, particularly if the server doesn't > > > > > > > implement locking > > > > > > > of shared candidate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I prefer explicit behavior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E.g. I don't think that RESTCONF auto-magically committing the > > > > > > > contents of a > > > > > > > shared datastore makes the two protocols work together > > > > > > > simpler. > > > > > > > More likely it was occasionally cause very surprising, and > > > > > > > potentially very > > > > > > > bad, things happening to a devices configuration (e.g. if the > > > > > > > NETCONF client > > > > > > > isn't employing locking). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) So, I think that the datastore itself only > > > > > > > > > > > contains the > > > > > > > > > > > proposed changes (additions, modifications, and deletes) > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > when they are committed. I think that clients may also > > > > > > > > > > > want to see > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > combined configuration of the current contents of > > > > > > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > > > > > delta held in applied. This could be exposed > > > > > > > > > > > either as > > > > > > > > > > > (i) a > > > > > > > > > > > new RPC, (ii) as an extra query parameter or (iii) As > > > > > > > > > > > another read- > > > > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > datastore. A new RPC has the disadvantage that it > > > > > > > > > > > probably wouldn't > > > > > > > > > > > support all the query parameters, so my instinctive > > > > > > > > > > > preference would > > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > to one of the other two latter options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you mean to be able to see the result of a "dry run" > > > > > > > > > > of a commit? > > > > > > > > > > This would be certainly possible and, in fact, in our > > > > > > > > > > implementation > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > is pretty trivial. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > let me ask two different question first: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (1) If I call GET on then do I see just what I have > > > > > > > > > changed > > > > > > > > > (and explicitly don't see anything that I haven't changed), or > > > > > > > > > do I see > > > > > > > > > all of the base configuration with my private changes merged > > > > > > > > > in? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After you do commit or reset, your staging repository becomes > > > > > > > > (conceptually) an exact, private and writable copy of > > > > > > > > . If you > > > > > > > > do some changes, you see them along with the other config data > > > > > > > > (modulo > > > > > > > > NACM). However, you don't see any changes that have been done > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > in the mean time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, so I think that it is useful to be able to get/see the > > > > > > > delta against > > > > > > > the base copy, and perhaps an operation for it to sync and merge > > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > latest baseline version. Obviously, there would need to be a > > > > > > > mechanism to > > > > > > > report merge conflicts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (2) If the answer to Q1 is you see the base configuration + > > > > > > > > > private > > > > > > > > > changes merged in, then is it the base configuration fixed > > > > > > > > > from the > > > > > > > > > point in time that was initialized? Or does it > > > > > > > > > float, i.e. it > > > > > > > > > always updates to the latest committed base configuration in > > > > > > > > > running? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In our implementation, it is the data from the point of time > > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > was last initialized (after commit or reset). I think > > > > > > > > it would > > > > > > > > be possible to let track the changes in intended as > > > > > > > > long as > > > > > > > > the user doesn't start editing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5) If private candidate datastores are being added to > > > > > > > > > > > RESTCONF, then > > > > > > > > > > > should they also be added to NETCONF? If they are added > > > > > > > > > > > to both > > > > > > > > > > > then I > > > > > > > > > > > think that they should be added in the same way, as much > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > possible, > > > > > > > > > > > perhaps both could be updated in a single draft to save > > > > > > > > > > > repetitive > > > > > > > > > > > text? In general, I like (Kent's?) idea of NETCONF WG > > > > > > > > > > > writing a RFC > > > > > > > > > > > that describes all the common parts of NETCONF and > > > > > > > > > > > RESTCONF that the > > > > > > > > > > > individual protocol docs can then reference rather than > > > > > > > > > > > writing > > > > > > > > > > > similar > > > > > > > > > > > or equivalent text in two places. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But private candidates are already an option in NETCONF, > > > > > > > > > > right? One > > > > > > > > > > possibility would be to make it the ONLY option, because > > > > > > > > > > shared > > > > > > > > > > candidates > > > > > > > > > > have known problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you do private candidate in NETCONF? I thought that > > > > > > > > > it was only > > > > > > > > > shared candidate that had been standardized. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RFC 6241 says this in sec. 8.3.1: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The candidate configuration can be shared among multiple > > > > > > > > sessions. > > > > > > > > Unless a client has specific information that the candidate > > > > > > > > configuration is not shared, it MUST assume that other > > > > > > > > sessions are > > > > > > > > able to modify the candidate configuration at the same > > > > > > > > time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This implies to me that NETCONF's candidate datastore is > > > > > > > generally regarded > > > > > > > as being shared, not private. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lada > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Lada > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But otherwise, I think that it is an interesting idea, and > > > > > > > > > > > certainly > > > > > > > > > > > warrants some WG discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Netconf mailing list > > > > > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Tue Jul 17 08:54:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D0B0130F16 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:53:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 76mVRzgPDcbn for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE71130F40 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 15BC6234D67A; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 17:53:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 17:53:49 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Andy Bierman Cc: Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180717155349.tvqdvzatycpbrdgg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Andy Bierman , Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:53:59 -0000 On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 08:07:13AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > So far the only standard thing you can do with NMDA is report the > operational value of configuration data nodes. For devices that do > not have noticeable delays to apply configuration, there won't be > any difference between the config=true nodes in and > . For these devices, NMDA is not interesting and even > irrelevant. It is not only delay that causes applied config to differ from intended config but there is also plugable hardware, sometimes intended config gets augmented or even overwritten by control plane protocols, sometimes local software on the device bypasses the config system, sometimes there are simply bugs. The number of devices that pretend to not need NMDA may be larger than the number of devices that really do not need NMDA. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 17 09:09:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D513A130DE4 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:09:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jvqxIHkw1myn for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BBD5120049 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id u7-v6so1474496lji.3 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:08:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=BE7ShCacu9i5ZRpApRs02xLTcMi7t2EmdLNvlkNJlYU=; b=OXZHiH8LXp8OiXhiKkPM+PvArHf5nTOJE5VVHiGSkK+ekTfZ2x3EiQu/BfxDkdYU/o dOmjDr0MzJwzhpGQpHAJpt+6AidotoTvOWVl37RSxxb60tRfi7X2ZrwflOC8UvwvsUuf bhJDHYQRJCBThgYvqJ8v3pgw1RsAL9/ag0hvWcROvLCI9AuBgnpNvPr1/oFiwE6pU6JJ Y3e8L4EvDuh6or9UWlVI8ZOoOCCZwLbDJ5q5NSYWDsVYMDNiSK8AmFqG2Ph34j6bfqN3 LmjQ+NzPTH9WznLMUCEvy4bh7hAhhUZRZkTjNtksShGFY/YMitcU07qW6KV98lnxvOXk MOfA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=BE7ShCacu9i5ZRpApRs02xLTcMi7t2EmdLNvlkNJlYU=; b=fTq9yBqS6w0phoXM6Lgm1OS5sJ8DHi4NbzQbg+aA2l4a4PbbJ8/q2j0t8V5KB6cgGk A2yCg7fn6ZXy2wkyjyBdkqIakYxJAQFm/F++6yDCpqjjzRDy2aWWOfVhFZqiXw3IDiCn ReFFQZVvPcXmFwACKZUDFwkYztr4clgymzqZ75aMKk8sQYVpkEtiWj3k8+yjWyzlAGgK M7/4+Eh5KB8r/TGDhidLUdJsnJfpDWrGxaZlNM6hxzD6epbdUiwhQv8VQEIO9rTJtMKY MTJd12+/zrJxZqSXCBjD+xUC2ngNCPOL3lBYh0k7ZsHWwEm03fyGJhGQt6dRjxB3NS7v gaqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHijwBEXiVIdGe6ZEUxTKC2VfPnLwy1xkX+eHyxBKFoITNvGsHR 3FRcZK9pq245ujO3SfxiktAKXbzhS7Hq0YdQMnTCBw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfmtHjZaZba4pAfoPtaww/WKV7XsCyV0O/Wp5CmaRn7fVp2TCSQh2KEA4oLB+PJW48szsS0cQzT3r6NF9RtxK0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:5687:: with SMTP id k7-v6mr2007983lje.105.1531843737727; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:08:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:08:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180717155349.tvqdvzatycpbrdgg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <87sh4ofjyd.fsf@nic.cz> <7794cb8f-caba-c652-abfa-db754b509dd2@cisco.com> <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> <20180717155349.tvqdvzatycpbrdgg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:08:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Andy Bierman , Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d6c9d705713429a5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:09:04 -0000 --000000000000d6c9d705713429a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 08:07:13AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > So far the only standard thing you can do with NMDA is report the > > operational value of configuration data nodes. For devices that do > > not have noticeable delays to apply configuration, there won't be > > any difference between the config=true nodes in and > > . For these devices, NMDA is not interesting and even > > irrelevant. > > It is not only delay that causes applied config to differ from > intended config but there is also plugable hardware, sometimes > intended config gets augmented or even overwritten by control plane > protocols, sometimes local software on the device bypasses the config > system, sometimes there are simply bugs. > > Not all devices have line cards. If you read RFC 8040, it says RESTCONF is not intended to be a replacement for NETCONF so simple devices are likely to never need to report differences between intended and applied configuration. > The number of devices that pretend to not need NMDA may be larger than > the number of devices that really do not need NMDA. > Where are those NMDA devices? Since this is so urgent I would expect to see deployments by now. There is no point in working on 3rd-party client apps until that happens. > > /js > > Andy > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --000000000000d6c9d705713429a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 08:07:13AM -0700, Andy Bierm= an wrote:
>
> So far the only standard thing you can do with NMDA is report the
> operational value of configuration data nodes.=C2=A0 For devices that = do
> not have noticeable delays to apply configuration, there won't be<= br> > any difference between the config=3Dtrue nodes in <running> and<= br> > <operational> .=C2=A0 For these devices, NMDA is not interesting= and even
> irrelevant.

It is not only delay that causes applied config to differ from
intended config but there is also plugable hardware, sometimes
intended config gets augmented or even overwritten by control plane
protocols, sometimes local software on the device bypasses the config
system, sometimes there are simply bugs.



Not all devices have li= ne cards.
If you read RFC 8040, it says RESTCONF is not intended = to be a replacement for NETCONF
so simple devices are likely to n= ever need to report differences between intended and applied
conf= iguration.

=C2=A0
The number of devices that pretend to not need NMDA may be larger than
the number of devices that really do not need NMDA.

Where are those NMDA devices?
Since t= his is so urgent I would expect to see deployments by now.
There = is no point in working on 3rd-party client apps until that happens.
=C2=A0

/js



Andy
=C2=A0
--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--000000000000d6c9d705713429a5-- From nobody Tue Jul 17 09:23:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BFB5130E8B for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:23:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SBEM5IR0ReqB for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A90C130EBB for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id C9E96234D7B5; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:23:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:23:47 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Andy Bierman Cc: Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180717162347.6lzzejb7nxv7x3wi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Andy Bierman , Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> <20180717155349.tvqdvzatycpbrdgg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:23:51 -0000 On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 09:08:56AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > Not all devices have line cards. > There are more things you can plug these days. But yes, there are devices that only have a power plug. ;-) > If you read RFC 8040, it says RESTCONF is not intended to be a > replacement for NETCONF so simple devices are likely to never need > to report differences between intended and applied configuration. I doubt that both implied statements "RESTCONF is only for simple devices" and "simple devices do not need NMDA" are true. Time will tell. > Where are those NMDA devices? > Since this is so urgent I would expect to see deployments by now. RFC 8349 appeared in March, the NMDA extensions for NC and RC got stuck in the publishing queue. Lets be fair and give it some time. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 17 10:00:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67AB124BE5 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:00:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kc8tBd4FSXQA for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69395130FF3 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id r13-v6so1603125ljg.10 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:59:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=HC4CsoBPqITFdHJbAn30EmRIvIOuaGOi2mEuF0FE0pw=; b=cFZkuUObgxUtRfkXPa+EhM/1V6EAmU2WZ8r2qMoxPZSDNw0VbnC9Rn3uZszZ38Gosh xtq1BoYfiEhKuabqQHZA2L5Kfno4udElswVbvhXocBkvKIqymgmBSnLws3q3OfATtXkS s2psPrUK3qNcpKsvgmeqPIXhSKwRcr4zu8T7Y8RPl+R0aMRcQ4MYFi4DjrDd8K/V40uX uAwRrGRmyl2mDSIR7prwBaHLIjIC92v3kSnuLE6DyzdgMPOHzmZR8xj/Nz4Cfv4xHTMe loqDx02W1zAkPyYbXiFqKmPbQHuAIP1PrLNUNs+mK8maMO2Nos2rnlC2BfUgP2dR9V7T tlMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=HC4CsoBPqITFdHJbAn30EmRIvIOuaGOi2mEuF0FE0pw=; b=KsTqbF5phV0b9A92GEmV2BFrjr0DwpiOcC5lktbYnRSg/buUH3HLqmougmr/jTbn5K dRKuWPm1HNduBNt46+Hes6iUn1YWeBno+YlDQutorEza6vX2qE8PIf0+yhzNcBGwoWHr Su12rd1jjucFOec7H8ZQwK864QjEyvk7GDwN4MXN9KjBQj9qvt+oxhLq1XcT+FnKYqe+ ZToRxjIshtw9sRYratbYxBnooCGsZfoE6DJEZsRNrGNayyWKiT2kpu7p07Oly1rIhay0 R4GEDNOLVIl1yJFg6w0++hELcKqmvWMUlC/Zvhkp9rXzbn2fOnTjdub5F64i2OZ9er+u 0r7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFyyhqje7BqGnS3yEDWQDMtTwx45X1F2WaD2y/x6SVG9FMdAoje P2uKTET2T8UEhY+Ozme0jRsObrb3qUbcKkvjcc9OHw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcg4edy1OzKCxPtkYMDYuGccFBXqtDXNJc/I+dpU0hMBSkTm2vHFbBXVTu344fe2Q3MK23m9OABWW2Fevkdxzo= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2ac3:: with SMTP id q186-v6mr1971777ljq.123.1531846780553; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:59:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:59:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180717162347.6lzzejb7nxv7x3wi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <87wotzmd5t.fsf@nic.cz> <7481bc73-b70e-d26a-0abf-3659a732c06f@cisco.com> <20180717155349.tvqdvzatycpbrdgg@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180717162347.6lzzejb7nxv7x3wi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:59:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Andy Bierman , Robert Wilton , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000349f91057134dfb1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-lhotka-netconf-restconf-transactions-00 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 17:00:06 -0000 --000000000000349f91057134dfb1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 9:23 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 09:08:56AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > Not all devices have line cards. > > > > There are more things you can plug these days. But yes, there are > devices that only have a power plug. ;-) > > And hard-wired interfaces that are not FRUs. > > If you read RFC 8040, it says RESTCONF is not intended to be a > > replacement for NETCONF so simple devices are likely to never need > > to report differences between intended and applied configuration. > > I doubt that both implied statements "RESTCONF is only for simple > devices" and "simple devices do not need NMDA" are true. Time will > tell. > > Let the market decide, not the IETF. > Where are those NMDA devices? > > Since this is so urgent I would expect to see deployments by now. > > RFC 8349 appeared in March, the NMDA extensions for NC and RC got > stuck in the publishing queue. Lets be fair and give it some time. > > It is not as if the ability to detect a line card not plugged in or buggy software did not exist before NMDA. It just requires separate "oper" and "state" data model design. NMDA can eliminate that extra leaf. The main design assumption by NMDA is that there are so many of these corner-cases that this should be the one-size-fits-all. (Time will tell.) /js > Andy > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --000000000000349f91057134dfb1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 9:23 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 09:08:56AM -0700, Andy Bierm= an wrote:
>
> Not all devices have line cards.
>

There are more things you can plug these days. But yes, there are
devices that only have a power plug. ;-)


And hard-wired interfaces that are not= FRUs.
=C2=A0
> If you read RFC 8040, it says RESTCONF is not intended to be a
> replacement for NETCONF so simple devices are likely to never need
> to report differences between intended and applied configuration.

I doubt that both implied statements "RESTCONF is only for simple
devices" and "simple devices do not need NMDA" are true. Tim= e will
tell.



Let the market decide, = not the IETF.


> Where are those NMDA devices?
> Since this is so urgent I would expect to see deployments by now.

RFC 8349 appeared in March, the NMDA extensions for NC and RC got
stuck in the publishing queue. Lets be fair and give it some time.



It is not as if the ability to detect= a line card not plugged in or buggy software
did not exist befor= e NMDA.=C2=A0 It just requires separate "oper" and "state&qu= ot; data model design.
NMDA can eliminate that extra leaf. The ma= in design assumption by NMDA is that there are
so many of these c= orner-cases that this should be the one-size-fits-all.
(Time will= tell.)


<= span class=3D"HOEnZb"> /js


Andy
=C2=A0
=
--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--000000000000349f91057134dfb1-- From nobody Tue Jul 17 10:21:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB453130F12 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:21:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l60ap1yi8lJo for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16710131022 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 604DE234D936; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 19:20:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 19:20:36 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 17:21:04 -0000 I see several pieces but I do not see how the pieces give me a workable solution nor do I see how such a solution gives me interoperability. If I configure a subscription, how does the flow of notifications work over NC and RC? How do I configure where the connection goes? What is the RC resource that provides me the notification stream? How will all of this work if the endpoints in the future want to negotiate different encodings? Since you said you implemented this: What exactly did you implement, what did not leave out, what did have to add to make it work? /js On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 01:20:55PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote: > Juergen, > > To flip this around, I don’t understand where the difficulties are. > > But here’s what I see: > > 1. The format of the update notifications should be the same whether the subscription is dynamic or configured for a given transport and encoding. I believe we have that. > 2. There are some differences in out of band notifications when I last read the drafts in details; these were explained by the different connection setup contexts. But this is otherwise unrelated to configured subscriptions. > 3. Since the transport specific details are now separate from the base line drafts, it allows transport specific behaviour to decide how the connections (for configured subscriptions) are to be setup. We have usable variations of “call home” or “dial out” or whatever you want to call it for the cases we need. Admittedly, we do have to provide augmentations for some of the protocols, but then, that’s the intent of the design. > > BTW, my comment below was sent last week. I have no idea how/why it arrived on the list after the IETF meeting yesterday. > > Tim > > -- > Cisco Systems Canada Co. > 2000 Innovation Drive > Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8 > Preferences > Unsubscribe > Privacy > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder > Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder > Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 1:50 AM > To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" > Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > I do not think that configured subscriptions have been fully worked > out. Nor do I see how I configure something that actually works. > Since you have implemented this, perhaps you can help me to understand > how all this actually works with the text in the current IDs. > > /js > > On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:10:52PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote: > Hi, > As an implementor of the drafts, I suggest enough already: we've been going down this path for quite some time. > Please publish both sets (dynamic and configured, and SN and YP) together. > Thanks, > Tim > > Hi, > > > > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could explicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the choices below they think would lead to the work completing most quickly. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote: > > I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions > > (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting > > WGLC or > > modularity) > > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. > > > > hums now are: > > > > 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > > a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) > > b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > > > > 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > > a. SN first, then YP (published sequentially) > > b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) > > > > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. > > > > Thanks, > > Kent // chair > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > mailto:Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > -- > Cisco Systems Canada Co. > 2000 Innovation Drive > Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8 > Preferences > Unsubscribe > Privacy > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 17 11:53:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from 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=?us-ascii?q?0AhEUgSQdOIFScBU7KgGCPgkKghIXegEJgkEzhGGFPm8BD4EFiWWBLAGBGQE?= =?us-ascii?q?B?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,366,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="144076488" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Jul 2018 18:53:10 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6HIr95G001741 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:53:09 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:53:08 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-011.cisco.com ([64.101.220.151]) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com ([64.101.220.151]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:53:08 -0400 From: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUHVo97/1MCRrcckGjuypYd3RC86STLH0AgAA6yQCAAIYGAP//1s0A Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:53:08 +0000 Message-ID: <1DDEF716-343F-4DF9-AE2C-CBC7B6E0DBD1@cisco.com> References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <4BD892C5AA1A484488C830094DF12903@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list 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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BB212F295 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:32:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MgzKGP3vDmpp for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45E7124BE5 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2F036234DC76; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 21:32:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 21:32:24 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180717193224.acctssedwfatgcl5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1DDEF716-343F-4DF9-AE2C-CBC7B6E0DBD1@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1DDEF716-343F-4DF9-AE2C-CBC7B6E0DBD1@cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 19:32:29 -0000 On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 06:53:08PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote: > Please see embedded, with prefix [Tim]. Note some editing of the original to separate the questions. > > > On 2018-07-17, 1:21 PM, "Juergen Schoenwaelder" wrote: > > I see several pieces but I do not see how the pieces give me a > workable solution nor do I see how such a solution gives me > interoperability. > > [Tim] Even with your questions below, it's still not clear to me what would be missing. > > If I configure a subscription, how does the flow of notifications work > over NC and RC? > > [Tim] NETCONF message flows are described in draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, Appendix A.3. RESTCONF is not in WGLC yet, but can be seen at draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif, Appendix B.2 There is no A.3 in draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications. Perhaps you mean draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-10. No, this example does not help me understand how notification messages flow. It only shows how I create a configured subscription. > How do I configure where the connection goes? > > [Tim] Since we don't implement netconf-server.yang, we do vendor specific stuff to link each receiver to our local call home/dial-out configuration. There are lots of moving parts here, and we don't expect interoperability for quite a while. This lack of interoperability is not a result of these subscription drafts though, so waiting for or making a model dependency to pending IETF work in this space will only make things more confusing and add further unnecessary delay to the process. So you agree that the solution is incomplete. > What is > the RC resource that provides me the notification stream? > > [Tim] Current NETCONF implementation doesn't need this. RESTCONF isn't used for configured subscriptions. Well, I do not really know how NETCONF notifications flow. There were comments raised concerning the use of call home and the need to have a exchange etc. There are pieces, but not a workable solution. > How will > all of this work if the endpoints in the future want to negotiate > different encodings? > > [Tim] Configured subscriptions aren't negotiable. However, negotiation is defined in the drafts for dynamic subscriptions. I think you can find more on that using a search of the text "configurable-encoding" within the YANG model of draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications. So this again seems to depend on transports that are not ready yet. I am also not sure that you want to replace negotiation of encodings in the protocols with explicit configuration in the first place but that is at the end just a minor inconvenience issue. In RC, the client can easily send an Accept header to negotiate the encoding. If NC does ever support multiple encodings, this will likely be negotiated dynamically via the exchange. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 17 13:50:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6706B13104C for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 13:50:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org 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=?us-ascii?q?A0D+AgBcVU5b/4QNJK1ZAxkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGDHypjfygKg3OIBIw9ggyDOJIBgXoLGA0HhEACF4JZITQ?= =?us-ascii?q?YAQIBAQIBAQJtHAyFNgEBAQECASMRGhgTDgICAQgOAggCAggBHQICAhkWARU?= =?us-ascii?q?QAgQOAQQBGgIEgjRLAYF3CA+rGoEuhFuFTAWBBod3gVc/gREngmqDDgsBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEWgTAWFwomgjqCVQKZXAkChgiJHYFDhBGCbYUkijmHNAIRFIEkHTiBUnA?= =?us-ascii?q?VZQGCPgkKghIXg0UzhGGFPm8BAQ6BBYpiAYEZAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,367,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="428397838" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Jul 2018 20:50:06 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (xch-rtp-012.cisco.com [64.101.220.152]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6HKo6jQ027027 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 17 Jul 2018 20:50:06 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) by XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (64.101.220.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:50:05 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-011.cisco.com ([64.101.220.151]) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com ([64.101.220.151]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:50:05 -0400 From: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUHVo97/1MCRrcckGjuypYd3RC86STLH0AgAA6yQCAAIYGAP//1s0AgABOBgD//9KlAA== Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 20:50:05 +0000 Message-ID: <3F966B11-1ADB-43A8-A611-097306519474@cisco.com> References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1DDEF716-343F-4DF9-AE2C-CBC7B6E0DBD1@cisco.com> <20180717193224.acctssedwfatgcl5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180717193224.acctssedwfatgcl5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <3DBD52D74AA1814082F4694D6C5B30EA@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 20:50:35 -0000 DQoNCi0tIA0KQ2lzY28gU3lzdGVtcyBDYW5hZGEgQ28uDQoyMDAwIElubm92YXRpb24gRHJpdmUN CkthbmF0YSwgT04sIENhbmFkYSwgSzJLIDNFOA0KUHJlZmVyZW5jZXMgPGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuY2lz Y28uY29tL29mZmVyL3N1YnNjcmliZS8/c2lkPTAwMDQ3ODMyNj4NClVuc3Vic2NyaWJlIDxodHRw Oi8vd3d3LmNpc2NvLmNvbS9vZmZlci91bnN1YnNjcmliZS8/c2lkPTAwMDQ3ODMyNz4NClByaXZh 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IiBpcyBpbmNvbXBsZXRlLg0KDQouLi4gICAgDQogICAgLS0gDQogICAgSnVlcmdlbiBTY2hvZW53 YWVsZGVyICAgICAgICAgICBKYWNvYnMgVW5pdmVyc2l0eSBCcmVtZW4gZ0dtYkgNCiAgICBQaG9u ZTogKzQ5IDQyMSAyMDAgMzU4NyAgICAgICAgIENhbXB1cyBSaW5nIDEgfCAyODc1OSBCcmVtZW4g fCBHZXJtYW55DQogICAgRmF4OiAgICs0OSA0MjEgMjAwIDMxMDMgICAgICAgICA8aHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuamFjb2JzLXVuaXZlcnNpdHkuZGUvPg0KICAgIA0KDQo= From nobody Tue Jul 17 14:04:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B0D130DE2 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:04:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nSMQxoob0bnC for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C84D1129C6B for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 3E5159C0FC7F7 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 22:03:49 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 22:03:50 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.110]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 05:03:41 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Kent Watsen CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] Monitor the whole operation state vs Monitor applied configuration from intended Thread-Index: AdQeEXU9H2OJ7bRLRlu3k3d1DUPFUg== Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 21:03:40 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.124.182.251] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF525EAnkgeml513mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Monitor the whole operation state vs Monitor applied configuration from intended X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 21:04:00 -0000 --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF525EAnkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQrlj5Hku7bkuro6IEtlbnQgV2F0c2VuIFttYWlsdG86a3dhdHNlbkBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldF0N 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SMTP id v13-v6mr2457945ljk.42.1531861542995; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:05:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:05:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:05:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001d9fad0571384fcb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 21:05:48 -0000 --0000000000001d9fad0571384fcb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I agree with Juergen that there are TBD features in SN. I also agree with the co-authors that it would be too much work to refactor now. It should be faster to complete SN then split it and start over. The main issues here seem to be: 1) no end-point for the configured receiver 2) CallHome procedures and server requirements such as processing normal NC or RC requests on the session 3) no MUST or SHOULD implement values for transport I would like to get YANG Push done but not at the expense of the review cycles. There is nothing stopping the WG from working faster (e.g. virtual interim)= . Just declaring everything done gets it out of the WG faster, but may not mean the RFC will be out faster. Andy Andy On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > I see several pieces but I do not see how the pieces give me a > workable solution nor do I see how such a solution gives me > interoperability. > > If I configure a subscription, how does the flow of notifications work > over NC and RC? How do I configure where the connection goes? What is > the RC resource that provides me the notification stream? How will > all of this work if the endpoints in the future want to negotiate > different encodings? > > Since you said you implemented this: What exactly did you implement, > what did not leave out, what did have to add to make it work? > > /js > > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 01:20:55PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote: > > Juergen, > > > > To flip this around, I don=E2=80=99t understand where the difficulties = are. > > > > But here=E2=80=99s what I see: > > > > 1. The format of the update notifications should be the same whether > the subscription is dynamic or configured for a given transport and > encoding. I believe we have that. > > 2. There are some differences in out of band notifications when I > last read the drafts in details; these were explained by the different > connection setup contexts. But this is otherwise unrelated to configured > subscriptions. > > 3. Since the transport specific details are now separate from the > base line drafts, it allows transport specific behaviour to decide how th= e > connections (for configured subscriptions) are to be setup. We have usabl= e > variations of =E2=80=9Ccall home=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cdial out=E2=80=9D o= r whatever you want to call it for > the cases we need. Admittedly, we do have to provide augmentations for so= me > of the protocols, but then, that=E2=80=99s the intent of the design. > > > > BTW, my comment below was sent last week. I have no idea how/why it > arrived on the list after the IETF meeting yesterday. > > > > Tim > > > > -- > > Cisco Systems Canada Co. > > 2000 Innovation Drive > > Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8 > > Preferences > > Unsubscribe > > Privacy > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder > > Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder > > Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 1:50 AM > > To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" > > Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > > > I do not think that configured subscriptions have been fully worked > > out. Nor do I see how I configure something that actually works. > > Since you have implemented this, perhaps you can help me to understand > > how all this actually works with the text in the current IDs. > > > > /js > > > > On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:10:52PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote: > > Hi, > > As an implementor of the drafts, I suggest enough already: we've been > going down this path for quite some time. > > Please publish both sets (dynamic and configured, and SN and YP) > together. > > Thanks, > > Tim > > > Hi, > > > > > > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could > explicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the choic= es > below they think would lead to the work completing most quickly. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions > > > (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting > > > WGLC or > > > modularity) > > > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push. > > > > > > hums now are: > > > > > > 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > > > a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) > > > b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > > > > > > 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > > > a. SN first, then YP (published sequentially) > > > b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) > > > > > > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kent // chair > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > mailto:Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > -- > > Cisco Systems Canada Co. > > 2000 Innovation Drive > > Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8 > > Preferences > > Unsubscribe > > Privacy > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --0000000000001d9fad0571384fcb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I agree with Juergen that there are= TBD features in SN.
I also agree with the co-authors that it wou= ld be too much work to refactor now.
It should be faster to compl= ete SN then split it and start over.

The main issu= es here seem to be:
=C2=A01) no end-point for the configured rece= iver
=C2=A02) CallHome procedures and server requirements such as=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0processing normal NC or RC requests on the s= ession
=C2=A03) no MUST or SHOULD implement values for transport<= /div>

I would like to get YANG Push done but not at the = expense of the review cycles.
There is nothing stopping the WG fr= om working faster (e.g. virtual interim).
Just declaring everythi= ng done gets it out of the WG faster,
but may not mean the RFC wi= ll be out faster.



An= dy




An= dy


On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
I see several pieces but I do not see how t= he pieces give me a
workable solution nor do I see how such a solution gives me
interoperability.

If I configure a subscription, how does the flow of notifications work
over NC and RC? How do I configure where the connection goes?=C2=A0 What is=
the RC resource that provides me the notification stream?=C2=A0 How will all of this work if the endpoints in the future want to negotiate
different encodings?

Since you said you implemented this: What exactly did you implement,
what did not leave out, what did have to add to make it work?

/js

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 01:20:55PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote:
> Juergen,
>
> To flip this around, I don=E2=80=99t understand where the difficulties= are.
>
> But here=E2=80=99s what I see:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A01.=C2=A0 The format of the update notifications should be = the same whether the subscription is dynamic or configured for a given tran= sport and encoding. I believe we have that.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A02.=C2=A0 There are some differences in out of band notific= ations when I last read the drafts in details; these were explained by the = different connection setup contexts. But this is otherwise unrelated to con= figured subscriptions.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A03.=C2=A0 Since the transport specific details are now sepa= rate from the base line drafts, it allows transport specific behaviour to d= ecide how the connections (for configured subscriptions) are to be setup. W= e have usable variations of =E2=80=9Ccall home=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cdial ou= t=E2=80=9D or whatever you want to call it for the cases we need. Admittedl= y, we do have to provide augmentations for some of the protocols, but then,= that=E2=80=99s the intent of the design.
>
> BTW, my comment below was sent last week. I have no idea how/why it ar= rived on the list after the IETF meeting yesterday.
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Cisco Systems Canada Co.
> 2000 Innovation Drive
> Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8
> Preferences <http://www.cisco.com/off= er/subscribe/?sid=3D000478326>
> Unsubscribe <http://www.cisco.com/off= er/unsubscribe/?sid=3D000478327>
> Privacy <http://www.cisco.com/web/siteassets/legal/privacy.html>
>
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 1:50 AM
> To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
> Cc: "netconf@ietf.org&quo= t; <netconf@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now
>
> I do not think that configured subscriptions have been fully worked > out. Nor do I see how I configure something that actually works.
> Since you have implemented this, perhaps you can help me to understand=
> how all this actually works with the text in the current IDs.
>
> /js
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:10:52PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote= :
> Hi,
> As an implementor of the drafts, I suggest enough already: we've b= een going down this path for quite some time.
> Please publish both sets (dynamic and configured, and SN and YP) toget= her.
> Thanks,
> Tim
> > Hi,
> >
> > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could e= xplicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the choices = below they think would lead to the work completing most quickly.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote:
> > I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscription= s
> > (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expedit= ing
> > WGLC or
> > modularity)
> > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push= .
> >
> > hums now are:
> >
> >=C2=A0 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequenti= ally)
> >=C2=A0 b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A02. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a. SN first, then YP=C2=A0 (published sequenti= ally)
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0b. SN and YP together (published in parallel)<= br> > >
> > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your pre= so.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kent // chair
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> mailto:Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf=
> --
> Cisco Systems Canada Co.
> 2000 Innovation Drive
> Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8
> Preferences <http://www.cisco.com/off= er/subscribe/?sid=3D000478326>
> Unsubscribe <http://www.cisco.com/off= er/unsubscribe/?sid=3D000478327>
> Privacy <http://www.cisco.com/web/siteassets/legal/privacy.html>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org<mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf=
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs U= niversity Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1= | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= ;https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

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Jul 2018 23:41:20 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Andy Bierman , Juergen Schoenwaelder , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUHhHrAK87NKpG2E+Ouz7jjC6MRKSUNnVA Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 03:41:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.243.239] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_a54850668bfb4483b89f4c2b15bf5f44XCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 03:41:27 -0000 --_000_a54850668bfb4483b89f4c2b15bf5f44XCHRTP013ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbTogQW5keSBCaWVybWFuLCBKdWx5IDE3LCAyMDE4IDU6MDYgUE0NCg0KDQpIaSwNCg0KSSBh Z3JlZSB3aXRoIEp1ZXJnZW4gdGhhdCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgVEJEIGZlYXR1cmVzIGluIFNOLg0KDQpJ IGFsc28gYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB0aGUgY28tYXV0aG9ycyB0aGF0IGl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIHRvbyBtdWNo IHdvcmsgdG8gcmVmYWN0b3Igbm93Lg0KSXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGZhc3RlciB0byBjb21wbGV0ZSBT TiB0aGVuIHNwbGl0IGl0IGFuZCBzdGFydCBvdmVyLg0KDQpUaGUgbWFpbiBpc3N1ZXMgaGVyZSBz ZWVtIHRvIGJlOg0KIDEpIG5vIGVuZC1wb2ludCBmb3IgdGhlIGNvbmZpZ3VyZWQgcmVjZWl2ZXIN Cg0KPEVyaWM+IFRoZXJlIHNob3VsZCBub3QgYmUgYW55IGVuZHBvaW50IGluIFNOLiAgIEVuZHBv aW50IHNwZWNpZmljcyB3b3VsZCBuZWVkIHRvIGJlIGV4cG9zZWQgaW4gdGhlIHRyYW5zcG9ydCBk b2N1bWVudC4NCg0KTm90ZSB0aGF0IHdlIHRyaWVkIGZvciB5ZWFycyB0byBoYXZlIHNvbWV0aGlu 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SMTP id r1-v6mr3689614lja.21.1531896719189; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 23:51:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 23:51:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 23:51:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c7bbb20571407f36" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 06:52:07 -0000 --000000000000c7bbb20571407f36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I do not see much standards value in the configured subscriptions, from a client developer's POV. They are optional to implement and require vendor-specific details to be usable. I can't think of any use-cases where the receiver has perfect knowledge of the configured subscriptions (and is therefore ready to start receiving notifications on those subscriptions without any operations) yet cannot invoke once the CallHome session is established. This seems to be a subjective design choice. I am OK with the configured subscriptions only because I have no intention of implementing it at this time. I can see how other reviewers within the IETF may not be willing to give such a free pass. There is no rule that says standard has to be complete and cannot depend on other pieces still under development. Seems to me YANG Push will be stuck in MISREF state for awhile anyway, but all these external dependencies are by design choice, so the WG must be OK with the delays that this will cause. Andy On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 8:41 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > *From:* Andy Bierman, July 17, 2018 5:06 PM > > > > Hi, > > > > I agree with Juergen that there are TBD features in SN. > > > > I also agree with the co-authors that it would be too much work to > refactor now. > > It should be faster to complete SN then split it and start over. > > > > The main issues here seem to be: > > 1) no end-point for the configured receiver > > > > There should not be any endpoint in SN. Endpoint specifics would > need to be exposed in the transport document. > > > > Note that we tried for years to have something transport independent for > receivers in SN. I.e., there was an endpoint =E2=80=9Caddress=E2=80=9D = in the SN from > 00-v13. Kent and Martin argued it out of the SN draft. For more on thi= s, > there is plenty extensive email alias archive on this subject. As a > result, with v14, =E2=80=9Caddress=E2=80=9D is gone. > > > > To summarize Kent & Martin=E2=80=99s argument which led to the v14 change= : current > endpoint =E2=80=9Caddress=E2=80=9D might be confused with call home. We = won=E2=80=99t agree with > anything that might conflict with call home. It is better to do nothing = if > we can=E2=80=99t agree on something. By doing nothing, vendors can augme= nt in what > is needed. > > > > For v14 we didn=E2=80=99t just ignore the hole removing =E2=80=9Caddress= =E2=80=9D made of course. > Many email iterations over the last several months have proposed YANG > augmentation code for those people who *do* want a leafref to > netconf-server.yang now. So if it makes this =E2=80=9Cendpoint completen= ess=E2=80=9D issue > go away, I would happily put an informational appendix into NETCONF-notif= . > This appendix would include the necessary augmentations to the leafref > which Kent and I worked through. > > > > But we should go no farther than an informational appendix on this. The > current solution of doing nothing is actually a far more compelling answe= r > than the inserting a mandatory (but then deviated away) leafref to an > unimplemented ietf call home model. This would allow the =E2=80=9Csolut= ion is > complete=E2=80=9D answer to match to what dominates the industry: vendors= who have > their own key and call home infrastructure. > > > > > > 2) CallHome procedures and server requirements such as > > processing normal NC or RC requests on the session > > > > This is described in draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications, > section 5.2. > > > > 3) no MUST or SHOULD implement values for transport > > > > This is on purpose. IoT is not going to want a NETCONF transport default= . > The current draft allows identities to be added for transports supporte= d > by a platform. It is not possible to configure a transport the platform > doesn=E2=80=99t have. > > > > I would like to get YANG Push done but not at the expense of the review > cycles. > > There is nothing stopping the WG from working faster (e.g. virtual > interim). > > > > If the WG chairs agreed to a final set of issues as input to the meeting. > And agreed to abide by what came out of this interim as binding, final > consensus, it might be a possibility. > > > > Just declaring everything done gets it out of the WG faster, > > but may not mean the RFC will be out faster. > > > > Topics #1 & #2 above are transport specific. It would seem getting SN & > YP to review beyond the WG should speed the final process. > > > > Eric > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > > I see several pieces but I do not see how the pieces give me a > workable solution nor do I see how such a solution gives me > interoperability. > > If I configure a subscription, how does the flow of notifications work > over NC and RC? How do I configure where the connection goes? What is > the RC resource that provides me the notification stream? How will > all of this work if the endpoints in the future want to negotiate > different encodings? > > Since you said you implemented this: What exactly did you implement, > what did not leave out, what did have to add to make it work? > > /js > > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 01:20:55PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote: > > Juergen, > > > > To flip this around, I don=E2=80=99t understand where the difficulties = are. > > > > But here=E2=80=99s what I see: > > > > 1. The format of the update notifications should be the same whether > the subscription is dynamic or configured for a given transport and > encoding. I believe we have that. > > 2. There are some differences in out of band notifications when I > last read the drafts in details; these were explained by the different > connection setup contexts. But this is otherwise unrelated to configured > subscriptions. > > 3. Since the transport specific details are now separate from the > base line drafts, it allows transport specific behaviour to decide how th= e > connections (for configured subscriptions) are to be setup. We have usabl= e > variations of =E2=80=9Ccall home=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cdial out=E2=80=9D o= r whatever you want to call it for > the cases we need. Admittedly, we do have to provide augmentations for so= me > of the protocols, but then, that=E2=80=99s the intent of the design. > > > > BTW, my comment below was sent last week. I have no idea how/why it > arrived on the list after the IETF meeting yesterday. > > > > Tim > > > > -- > > Cisco Systems Canada Co. > > 2000 Innovation Drive > > > Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8 > > > Preferences > > Unsubscribe > > Privacy > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder > > Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder > > Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 1:50 AM > > To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" > > Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > > > I do not think that configured subscriptions have been fully worked > > out. Nor do I see how I configure something that actually works. > > Since you have implemented this, perhaps you can help me to understand > > how all this actually works with the text in the current IDs. > > > > /js > > > > On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:10:52PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote: > > Hi, > > As an implementor of the drafts, I suggest enough already: we've been > going down this path for quite some time. > > Please publish both sets (dynamic and configured, and SN and YP) > together. > > Thanks, > > Tim > > > Hi, > > > > > > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could > explicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the choic= es > below they think would lead to the work completing most quickly. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions > > > (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting > > > WGLC or > > > modularity) > > > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push.. > > > > > > hums now are: > > > > > > 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > > > a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) > > > b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > > > > > > 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > > > a. SN first, then YP (published sequentially) > > > b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) > > > > > > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kent // chair > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > mailto:Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > -- > > Cisco Systems Canada Co. > > 2000 Innovation Drive > > > Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8 > > > Preferences > > Unsubscribe > > Privacy > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > --000000000000c7bbb20571407f36 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I do not see much standards value i= n the configured subscriptions, from a client developer's POV.
They are optional to implement and require vendor-specific details to be = usable.

I can't think of any use-cases where t= he receiver has perfect knowledge of the
configured subscriptions= (and is therefore ready to start receiving notifications
on thos= e subscriptions without any operations) yet cannot invoke <establish-sub= scription>
once the CallHome session is established.=C2=A0 Thi= s seems to be a subjective design choice.

I am OK = with the configured subscriptions only because I have no intention of=C2=A0=
implementing it at this time.=C2=A0 I can see how other reviewer= s within the IETF may not be willing
to give such a free pass.

There is no rule that says =C2=A0standard has to be = complete and cannot depend on other pieces
still under developmen= t.=C2=A0 Seems to me YANG Push will be stuck in MISREF state for awhile any= way,
but all these external dependencies are by design choice, so= the WG must be OK with the
delays that this will cause. =C2=A0


Andy




On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 8:41 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com<= /a>> wrote:

From: Andy Bierman, July 17, 2018 5:= 06 PM

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I agree with Juergen that there are TBD features in = SN.

=C2=A0

I also agree with the co-authors that it would be to= o much work to refactor now.

It should be faster to complete SN then split it and= start over.

=C2=A0

The main issues here seem to be:

=C2=A01) no end-point for the configured receiver=

=C2=A0

<Eric> There should not be any = endpoint in SN.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Endpoint specifics would need to be exposed in = the transport document.

=C2=A0

Note that we tried for years to have = something transport independent for receivers in SN.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I.e., ther= e was an endpoint =E2=80=9Caddress=E2=80=9D in the SN from 00-v13.=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Kent and Martin argued it out of the SN draft.=C2=A0 For more on this, there is= plenty extensive email alias archive on this subject.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As a res= ult, with v14, =E2=80=9Caddress=E2=80=9D is gone.

=C2=A0

To summarize Kent & Martin=E2=80= =99s argument which led to the v14 change: current endpoint =E2=80=9Caddres= s=E2=80=9D might be confused with call home.=C2=A0 We won=E2=80=99t agree w= ith anything that might conflict with call home.=C2=A0 It is better to do nothing if we= can=E2=80=99t agree on something.=C2=A0 By doing nothing, vendors can augm= ent in what is needed. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

For v14 we didn=E2=80=99t just ignore= the hole removing =E2=80=9Caddress=E2=80=9D made of course.=C2=A0 Many ema= il iterations over the last several months have proposed YANG augmentation code for those people who *do* want a leafref to netconf-server.yang now.= =C2=A0 So if it makes this =E2=80=9Cendpoint completeness=E2=80=9D issue go= away, I would happily put an informational appendix into NETCONF-notif.=C2= =A0 This appendix would include the necessary augmentations to the leafref which Kent and I worked through.

=C2=A0

But we should go no farther than an i= nformational appendix on this.=C2=A0 The current solution of doing nothing = is actually a far more compelling answer than the inserting a mandatory (but then deviated away) leafref to an unimplemented ietf call= home model.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This would allow the =E2=80=9Csolution is complete= =E2=80=9D answer to match to what dominates the industry: vendors who have = their own key and call home infrastructure. =C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A02) CallHome procedures and server requirements= such as

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0processing normal NC or RC reque= sts on the session

=C2=A0

This is described in draft-ietf-netco= nf-netconf-event-notifications, section 5.2.

=C2=A0

=C2=A03) no MUST or SHOULD implement values for tran= sport

=C2=A0

This is on purpose.=C2=A0 IoT is not = going to want a NETCONF transport default. =C2=A0=C2=A0The current draft al= lows identities to be added for transports supported by a platform.=C2=A0 It is not possible to configure a transport the platform doesn=E2=80=99t h= ave.

=C2=A0

I would like to get YANG Push done but not at the ex= pense of the review cycles.

There is nothing stopping the WG from working faster= (e.g. virtual interim).

=C2=A0

If the WG chairs agreed to a final se= t of issues as input to the meeting.=C2=A0 And agreed to abide by what came= out of this interim as binding, final consensus, it might be a possibility.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Just declaring everything done gets it out of the WG= faster,

but may not mean the RFC will be out faster.<= u>

=C2=A0

Topics #1 & #2 above are transpor= t specific.=C2=A0 It would seem getting SN & YP to review beyond the WG= should speed the final process.

=C2=A0

Eric

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Juergen Schoenwael= der <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

I see several pieces but I do not see how the pieces= give me a
workable solution nor do I see how such a solution gives me
interoperability.

If I configure a subscription, how does the flow of notifications work
over NC and RC? How do I configure where the connection goes?=C2=A0 What is=
the RC resource that provides me the notification stream?=C2=A0 How will all of this work if the endpoints in the future want to negotiate
different encodings?

Since you said you implemented this: What exactly did you implement,
what did not leave out, what did have to add to make it work?

/js

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 01:20:55PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote:
> Juergen,
>
> To flip this around, I don=E2=80=99t understand where the difficulties= are.
>
> But here=E2=80=99s what I see:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A01.=C2=A0 The format of the update notifications should be = the same whether the subscription is dynamic or configured for a given tran= sport and encoding. I believe we have that.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A02.=C2=A0 There are some differences in out of band notific= ations when I last read the drafts in details; these were explained by the = different connection setup contexts. But this is otherwise unrelated to con= figured subscriptions.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A03.=C2=A0 Since the transport specific details are now sepa= rate from the base line drafts, it allows transport specific behaviour to d= ecide how the connections (for configured subscriptions) are to be setup. W= e have usable variations of =E2=80=9Ccall home=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cdial ou= t=E2=80=9D or whatever you want to call it for the cases we need. Admittedly, we do h= ave to provide augmentations for some of the protocols, but then, that=E2= =80=99s the intent of the design.
>
> BTW, my comment below was sent last week. I have no idea how/why it ar= rived on the list after the IETF meeting yesterday.
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Cisco Systems Canada Co.
> 2000 Innovatio= n Drive
> Kanata, ON, Ca= nada, K2K 3E8
> Preferences <http://www.cisco.com/offer/subscribe/?= sid=3D000478326>
> Unsubscribe <http://www.cisco.com/offer/unsubscribe= /?sid=3D000478327>
> Privacy <http://www.cisco.com/web/siteassets/legal/p= rivacy.html>
>
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.= de>
> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-univers= ity.de>
> Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 1:50 AM
> To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
> Cc: "netcon= f@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now
>
> I do not think that configured subscriptions have been fully worked > out. Nor do I see how I configure something that actually works.
> Since you have implemented this, perhaps you can help me to understand=
> how all this actually works with the text in the current IDs.
>
> /js
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:10:52PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote= :
> Hi,
> As an implementor of the drafts, I suggest enough already: we've b= een going down this path for quite some time.
> Please publish both sets (dynamic and configured, and SN and YP) toget= her.
> Thanks,
> Tim
> > Hi,
> >
> > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could e= xplicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the choices = below they think would lead to the work completing most quickly.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote:
> > I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscription= s
> > (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expedit= ing
> > WGLC or
> > modularity)
> > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push= ..
> >
> > hums now are:
> >
> >=C2=A0 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequenti= ally)
> >=C2=A0 b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A02. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a. SN first, then YP=C2=A0 (published sequenti= ally)
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0b. SN and YP together (published in parallel)<= br> > >
> > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your pre= so.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kent // chair
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> mailto:Netconf@i= etf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> --
> Cisco Systems Canada Co.
> 2000 Innovatio= n Drive
> Kanata, ON, Ca= nada, K2K 3E8
> Preferences <http://www.cisco.com/offer/subscribe/?= sid=3D000478326>
> Unsubscribe <http://www.cisco.com/offer/unsubscribe= /?sid=3D000478327>
> Privacy <http://www.cisco.com/web/siteassets/legal/p= rivacy.html>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org= <mailto:Netcon= f@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
&= gt;
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH=
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ca= mpus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 2= 00 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus= Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 31= 03=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>=

______________________________<= wbr>_________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<= wbr>listinfo/netconf

=C2=A0


--000000000000c7bbb20571407f36-- From nobody Wed Jul 18 04:21:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE43F130E5C for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 04:21:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lW0tIwVNAU3Z for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 04:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE33130DE0 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 04:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id DA4E4234F022; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 13:21:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 13:21:08 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Kent Watsen Cc: netconf@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180718112108.hqgetzfebhqpdpsk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Kent Watsen , netconf@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] configuration models status and timeline X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:21:13 -0000 Kent, I liked your presentation since it was trying to close issues. I went through the recording and here is my short summary of where we are: 1. trust anchors / keystore -> option #1 (resolved) 2. local-or-keystore keys -> keep + feature statement (resolved) 3. move groupings to crypt-types -> ? (unresolved) 4. move algorithm identities -> ? (discussion with security people) 5. periodic connections -> periodic feature (resolved) 6. tcp keepalives -> ? (protocol layer keep alives with a feature?) So the sticky ones are #4 and #6. - Concerning #4, will you manage to talk to the security people this week and can we expect a proposal soon after? - Concerning #6, I am not really sure what protocol layer keep alives are (the client sending an "empty" rpc? - this would not need any server configuration just a definition how empty rpcs are handled; we would needs something similar than for RESTCONF). If this takes time to work out, perhaps another option is to remove keep alives from the models and to keep them on the TODO list for a future extension? So given this, what is your (realistic) estimation when we can have drafts that have all issues resolved and that go to WG last call? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Jul 18 06:32:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB4F126F72 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 06:32:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h8jMCZYAVGe3 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 06:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F325130DE3 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 06:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3F853234F5C6; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:32:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:32:00 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Andy Bierman , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180718133200.u7fpsv3xanb2nosr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Andy Bierman , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 13:32:06 -0000 On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 03:41:19AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > From: Andy Bierman, July 17, 2018 5:06 PM > > > Hi, > > I agree with Juergen that there are TBD features in SN. > > I also agree with the co-authors that it would be too much work to refactor now. > It should be faster to complete SN then split it and start over. > > The main issues here seem to be: > 1) no end-point for the configured receiver > > There should not be any endpoint in SN. Endpoint specifics would need to be exposed in the transport document. > > Note that we tried for years to have something transport independent for receivers in SN. I.e., there was an endpoint “address” in the SN from 00-v13. Kent and Martin argued it out of the SN draft. For more on this, there is plenty extensive email alias archive on this subject. As a result, with v14, “address” is gone. > > To summarize Kent & Martin’s argument which led to the v14 change: current endpoint “address” might be confused with call home. We won’t agree with anything that might conflict with call home. It is better to do nothing if we can’t agree on something. By doing nothing, vendors can augment in what is needed. So the standard is unusable without vendor augmentations, which are likely then not interoperable. If you go forward with this, I think this needs to be spelled out clearly in the document writeup so that the IESG can think about this. > For v14 we didn’t just ignore the hole removing “address” made of course. Many email iterations over the last several months have proposed YANG augmentation code for those people who *do* want a leafref to netconf-server.yang now. So if it makes this “endpoint completeness” issue go away, I would happily put an informational appendix into NETCONF-notif. This appendix would include the necessary augmentations to the leafref which Kent and I worked through. > > But we should go no farther than an informational appendix on this. The current solution of doing nothing is actually a far more compelling answer than the inserting a mandatory (but then deviated away) leafref to an unimplemented ietf call home model. This would allow the “solution is complete” answer to match to what dominates the industry: vendors who have their own key and call home infrastructure. Clearly, an address alone is not sufficient. What is needed is a concrete link to the configuration models. Right now we have: The method of identifying the targeted recevier IP address, port, and security credentials are left up to implementers of this specification. For implementation guidance and a YANG model for this function, please look to [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server]. I am not sure this is concrete enough. What exactly does one have to augment in? > 2) CallHome procedures and server requirements such as > processing normal NC or RC requests on the session > > This is described in draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications, section 5.2. And I commented that I disagree with the solution and there was discussion on the mailing. Ignoring comments does not make them go away. I believe you can't simply overwrite call-home steps and I believe after call-home NC starts and NC starts with a exchange. And then, is it reasonable to throw notifications at the client without having its consent? A poor client not expecting to receive notifications will likely close the session and you likely call the poor client again, potentially forming an ugly loop. > 3) no MUST or SHOULD implement values for transport > > This is on purpose. IoT is not going to want a NETCONF transport default. The current draft allows identities to be added for transports supported by a platform. It is not possible to configure a transport the platform doesn’t have. > I do not buy the IoT argument. What is wrong with requiring that a NETCONF server must support at least the NETCONF transport and that a RESTCONF server must support at the RESTCONF transport? /js PS: There were also issues raised concerning the "RESTCONF transport" which really is not a RESTCONF transport but some new HTTP/2 transport. I think this also needs to be resolved before that document can move. -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Jul 18 07:25:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60962130E14 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 07:25:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-18_03:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807180162 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] configuration models status and timeline X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:25:15 -0000 SGkgSnVlcmdlbiwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgYW5hbHlzaXMuICBJIHdhcyBhbHNvIHRoaW5r aW5nIHRoYXQgaXQgc2VlbXMgdGhhdCBqdXN0IGEgY291cGxlIGlzc3VlcyB3ZXJlIGxlZnQsIGFu ZCB0aGVuIHdlIGNvdWxkIGdvIHRvIGxhc3QgY2FsbCwgcG90ZW50aWFsbHkgd2VsbCB3aXRoaW4g 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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wQ9yfPDCrT0v for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAFE5130DD3 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 83FBC235A56F; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 17:02:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 17:02:28 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Kent Watsen Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180718150228.e2vcccd34sivmz3h@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Kent Watsen , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <20180718112108.hqgetzfebhqpdpsk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] configuration models status and timeline X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:02:35 -0000 On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 02:25:06PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > Hi Juergen, > > Thanks for the analysis. I was also thinking that it seems that just a couple issues were left, and then we could go to last call, potentially well within the timeframe needed for the YANG-push set of drafts. > > Regarding #4: I met with two Security+YANG folks from Huawei yesterday, who have agreed to help me with this issue. We also plan to try to loop back in Gary Wu, who created the identities in the ietf-ssh/tls-common modules in the first place. Our tentative plan is a meet in a couple weeks. Good. Sooner is better. ;-) > Regarding #6: my understanding (from Tim C. and Balazs L.) is to use some combination of a notification and an RPC to stimulate traffic. Presumably: > > For when the NC/RC-client is the transport-initiator (normal): > > - if there is a lull, the client could send a bogus RPC of > some sort (e.g., an that selects nothing) > and wait for the server sends an RPC-reply. Ideally, the keep alive would just be handled at the session layer. I am not sure where the NC spec allows C: S: otherwise one could define a noop RPC (I am not sure invoking a fake edit-config is necessarily a good idea). > For when the NC/RC-server is the transport-initiator (call-home): > > - if there is a lull, the server could send a notification > and wait for the client to send an RPC of some sort, which > the server would, presumably, send a reply for, to complete > the protocol transaction. The downside to this approach > is that it is wholly dependent on the client processing the > notification correctly (i.e., it's not baked into the NC/RC > protocols themselves). If you do call-home, there is still a client who could send keep alive messages. But yes, if you only stream notifications, then the server receives no feedback from the client in NETCONF (and I assume the same it true for RESTCONF notification streams). So here it is easier to say "protocol keep alive" than it is to work out the details. > As for removing keepalives altogether, please note the SHOULD > in RFC 8071, S7. Yep, but this text is specific for TLS and SSH and it seems TLS libraries practically have an issue here. > Another idea is to keep them, but add an > enumeration called something like "protocol-layer" (which > protocol layer should the keepalives occur) with a single > built-in option ("crypto-layer"?) and then let some future > module augment-in an additional enum like "app-layer". My point is that working out protocol layer keep alives is not as easy as it may sound (unless someone has a solution I can't think of) and the question is whether we want to hold off the documents until someone found a solution. It seems, we can define crypto layer keep-alives with a feature and then implementations will have to deal with this (for SSH this seems less an issue, so this affects NC over TLS primarily and also RC) and perhaps we can also define TCP layer keep-alives with a feature and with a warning attached to it (could be that the security ADs are OK with that if the warning makes the issues clear). For both keep-alives, we know how they would work. Protocol layer keep-alives are something new to be invented and it is somewhat unclear how they would work for the notification streaming case. It seems protocol layer keep-alives can be developed separately and then augmented in where the keep-alives are configured. A short RFC that details how the keep-alive messages work plus an augmentation of the configuration model (perhaps even just the definition of another identity). /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Jul 18 08:57:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF23126CB6 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:57:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net 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vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-18_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807180177 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] configuration models status and timeline X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:57:19 -0000 DQoNCj4+ICAgRm9yIHdoZW4gdGhlIE5DL1JDLWNsaWVudCBpcyB0aGUgdHJhbnNwb3J0LWluaXRp YXRvciAobm9ybWFsKToNCj4+IA0KPj4gICAgIC0gaWYgdGhlcmUgaXMgYSBsdWxsLCB0aGUgY2xp ZW50IGNvdWxkIHNlbmQgYSBib2d1cyBSUEMgb2YgDQo+PiAgICAgICBzb21lIHNvcnQgKGUuZy4s 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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rfMG-3QwI2V3 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 09:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A1E130F18 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 09:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 609BC235AB7A; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 18:42:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 18:42:32 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Kent Watsen Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180718164232.hrcxdbkm3sr33rxr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Kent Watsen , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <20180718112108.hqgetzfebhqpdpsk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180718150228.e2vcccd34sivmz3h@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <964B3A4A-E465-43CA-8460-1C07D8B46C8B@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <964B3A4A-E465-43CA-8460-1C07D8B46C8B@juniper.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] configuration models status and timeline X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 16:42:38 -0000 On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 03:57:11PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > I do not recommend holding off publishing these documents for this. > The folks asking for this said that, if IETF doesn't put something > into the standard model, they would augment in what they need. > That said, I do think that we should perhaps switch to using an > enumeration or an identity so that such extensions can be mixed in > easily in the future. The only counterpoint might be that such > would disable the ability to do aliveness checks at multiple > protocol layers simultaneously, though I don't know if that would > ever be desired or even, perhaps, not recommended. > Since liveness at layer N likely implies liveness at layers < N, one think liveness test is good enough. One thing you may watch out for are keep-alive parameters. I would not be surprised if the amount of control an application has over the parameters varies widely. (But perhaps that is then a matter of deviations.) /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Jul 18 11:02:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 816AA130FFF for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:01:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O9DMNkbk27Ew for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AF32130FF9 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id v9-v6so4880584ljk.4 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:01:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=UvnE5q695zdS5nqwao+GyVrX8ZUSeq3mOF+X4S4ygak=; b=gilAbTEHf/NCNAiBA9vUXYekoG2TEaQwStTeo9JWna0r+lVvBKJLT4Ax7yoXEEGJwD X2iy37eUyj81e5x3FXrwtZocLyarG+HHVnDxk5RFP87yMGTTHArCNDD9ndBJy1frzJ8B +WgS+DubyHYTAb4kaW5P5vzi+pzazTpcRwCCwcYmxLwXZmeYahzpd2IfLpC4kZXUwPxo JYKEnFG06/XVEZ/WCjnMV4lxN+9ekN4CKUIZzfp+wsLupx7zb7WkC5iEZpaKCJSy+JpC nMUFDMdWpmcbvVWsM6zCBoan9OoqNsoj3mv2Eec3NL8xLZkBxbkMBVK259d0a6VPwtRO VyfA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=UvnE5q695zdS5nqwao+GyVrX8ZUSeq3mOF+X4S4ygak=; b=ZaUprH5GRR94m1m+ty6v6qgydMlNsBuxqBZ7kwk7cfYqp4y0YV9jVDupuQ0IRcbupA QW+uNisBXpqqB40Ac0VpKrYjYn3eNKqit5OszsTobIIJEg6TwVOAEx0SWGv6khCG+AlG I93NGXXem4a3M6fABsdBblzkh6AhwmVxQCcfzP5yukalreXWGLaPYzsHW1RlZlUrHwzv liMg16b2ponO0pAL5nRmNB3qp+FB9z3GEyQKZxEs+Kh84WTdcRnFvA6t27J4xfUquqUs riHuSFC5z0xO3ZJBwIsC+kDljceLjxUl/CPOoDvr2ZsCnxWiu5VUVomGvki9VqEMmJG6 SI8w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEDiz79WvRqro3G+oYkhVHzUji0eR2udN1QHSz2JwxzPwwUI6zg OIr450L+M4mtkZ/uKVvtEcSYHuYK3nPHfWxa5HofnA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcj+V7z4qJCJiZoVDoPQR4FUoiwF0V6z1RmMyVOpYgjRUoDPzg0RaA9d1OA/GcoF+a+mUl07abXVfNrR/Gq0H4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:4401:: with SMTP id r1-v6mr5581099lja.21.1531936902292; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:01:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:01:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180718150228.e2vcccd34sivmz3h@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <20180718112108.hqgetzfebhqpdpsk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180718150228.e2vcccd34sivmz3h@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:01:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Kent Watsen , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e13100057149da68" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] configuration models status and timeline X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 18:01:56 -0000 --000000000000e13100057149da68 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 02:25:06PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > Hi Juergen, > > > > Thanks for the analysis. I was also thinking that it seems that just a > couple issues were left, and then we could go to last call, potentially > well within the timeframe needed for the YANG-push set of drafts. > > > > Regarding #4: I met with two Security+YANG folks from Huawei yesterday, > who have agreed to help me with this issue. We also plan to try to loop > back in Gary Wu, who created the identities in the ietf-ssh/tls-common > modules in the first place. Our tentative plan is a meet in a couple weeks. > > Good. Sooner is better. ;-) > > > Regarding #6: my understanding (from Tim C. and Balazs L.) is to use > some combination of a notification and an RPC to stimulate traffic. > Presumably: > > > > For when the NC/RC-client is the transport-initiator (normal): > > > > - if there is a lull, the client could send a bogus RPC of > > some sort (e.g., an that selects nothing) > > and wait for the server sends an RPC-reply. > > Ideally, the keep alive would just be handled at the session layer. I am > not sure where the NC spec allows > > C: C: xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"/> > S: S: xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"/> > > otherwise one could define a noop RPC (I am not sure invoking a fake > edit-config is necessarily a good idea). > I prefer an RPC for this purpose. It would be better if the session counters were not affected, but that would require protocol changes. Causing error counters to increment for keep-alives is bad. Andy > > For when the NC/RC-server is the transport-initiator (call-home): > > > > - if there is a lull, the server could send a notification > > and wait for the client to send an RPC of some sort, which > > the server would, presumably, send a reply for, to complete > > the protocol transaction. The downside to this approach > > is that it is wholly dependent on the client processing the > > notification correctly (i.e., it's not baked into the NC/RC > > protocols themselves). > > If you do call-home, there is still a client who could send keep alive > messages. But yes, if you only stream notifications, then the server > receives no feedback from the client in NETCONF (and I assume the same > it true for RESTCONF notification streams). So here it is easier to > say "protocol keep alive" than it is to work out the details. > > > As for removing keepalives altogether, please note the SHOULD > > in RFC 8071, S7. > > Yep, but this text is specific for TLS and SSH and it seems TLS > libraries practically have an issue here. > > > Another idea is to keep them, but add an > > enumeration called something like "protocol-layer" (which > > protocol layer should the keepalives occur) with a single > > built-in option ("crypto-layer"?) and then let some future > > module augment-in an additional enum like "app-layer". > > My point is that working out protocol layer keep alives is not as easy > as it may sound (unless someone has a solution I can't think of) and > the question is whether we want to hold off the documents until > someone found a solution. It seems, we can define crypto layer > keep-alives with a feature and then implementations will have to deal > with this (for SSH this seems less an issue, so this affects NC over > TLS primarily and also RC) and perhaps we can also define TCP layer > keep-alives with a feature and with a warning attached to it (could be > that the security ADs are OK with that if the warning makes the issues > clear). For both keep-alives, we know how they would work. > > Protocol layer keep-alives are something new to be invented and it is > somewhat unclear how they would work for the notification streaming > case. It seems protocol layer keep-alives can be developed separately > and then augmented in where the keep-alives are configured. A short > RFC that details how the keep-alive messages work plus an augmentation > of the configuration model (perhaps even just the definition of another > identity). > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --000000000000e13100057149da68 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 02:25:06PM +0000, Kent Watse= n wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
>
> Thanks for the analysis.=C2=A0 I was also thinking that it seems that = just a couple issues were left, and then we could go to last call, potentia= lly well within the timeframe needed for the YANG-push set of drafts.
>
> Regarding #4: I met with two Security+YANG folks from Huawei yesterday= , who have agreed to help me with this issue.=C2=A0 We also plan to try to = loop back in Gary Wu, who created the identities in the ietf-ssh/tls-common= modules in the first place.=C2=A0 Our tentative plan is a meet in a couple= weeks.

Good. Sooner is better. ;-)

> Regarding #6: my understanding (from Tim C. and Balazs L.) is to use s= ome combination of a notification and an RPC to stimulate traffic.=C2=A0 Pr= esumably:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0For when the NC/RC-client is the transport-initiator (norm= al):
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- if there is a lull, the client could send a bogus= RPC of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0some sort (e.g., an <edit-config> that= selects nothing)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and wait for the server sends an RPC-reply.<= br>
Ideally, the keep alive would just be handled at the session layer. I am not sure where the NC spec allows

C: <rpc message-id=3D"101"
C:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 xmlns=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:ba= se:1.0"/>
S: <rpc-reply message-id=3D"101"
S:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 xmlns=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:ba= se:1.0"/>

otherwise one could define a noop RPC (I am not sure invoking a fake
edit-config is necessarily a good idea).


I prefer an <no-op> RPC for this purpose.=C2=A0
It would be better if the session counters were not affected,
but that would require protocol changes.
Causing error counter= s to increment for keep-alives is bad.


<= div>Andy


>=C2=A0 =C2=A0For when the NC/RC-server is the transport-initiator (call= -home):
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- if there is a lull, the server could send a notif= ication
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and wait for the client to send an RPC of so= me sort, which
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the server would, presumably, send a reply f= or, to complete
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the protocol transaction.=C2=A0 The downside= to this approach
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is that it is wholly dependent on the client= processing the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0notification correctly (i.e., it's not b= aked into the NC/RC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocols themselves).

If you do call-home, there is still a client who could send keep alive
messages. But yes, if you only stream notifications, then the server
receives no feedback from the client in NETCONF (and I assume the same
it true for RESTCONF notification streams).=C2=A0 So here it is easier to say "protocol keep alive" than it is to work out the details.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0As for removing keepalives altogether, please note the SHO= ULD
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0in RFC 8071, S7.

Yep, but this text is specific for TLS and SSH and it seems TLS
libraries practically have an issue here.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Another idea is to keep them, but add an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0enumeration called something like "protocol-layer&quo= t; (which
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol layer should the keepalives occur) with a single =
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0built-in option ("crypto-layer"?) and then let s= ome future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0module augment-in an additional enum like "app-layer&= quot;.

My point is that working out protocol layer keep alives is not as easy
as it may sound (unless someone has a solution I can't think of) and the question is whether we want to hold off the documents until
someone found a solution. It seems, we can define crypto layer
keep-alives with a feature and then implementations will have to deal
with this (for SSH this seems less an issue, so this affects NC over
TLS primarily and also RC) and perhaps we can also define TCP layer
keep-alives with a feature and with a warning attached to it (could be
that the security ADs are OK with that if the warning makes the issues
clear). For both keep-alives, we know how they would work.

Protocol layer keep-alives are something new to be invented and it is
somewhat unclear how they would work for the notification streaming
case. It seems protocol layer keep-alives can be developed separately
and then augmented in where the keep-alives are configured. A short
RFC that details how the keep-alive messages work plus an augmentation
of the configuration model (perhaps even just the definition of another
identity).

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

--000000000000e13100057149da68-- From nobody Wed Jul 18 12:45:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B9E6130FE1 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:45:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6aPPeaPuX6pz for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (trail.lhotka.name [77.48.224.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDAD5130FEE for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix, from userid 109) id 86E5F1820CBC; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:51:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dhcp-9627.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.150.39]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DE8921820053 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:51:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Netconf Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:45:10 -0400 Message-ID: <87efg0nxa1.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] {+restconf}/data X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 19:45:22 -0000 Hi, it seems that using RESTCONF with the updated NMDA-compatible modules leads to the (IMO undesirable) result where under the "legacy" root "{+restconf}/data" state data are mixed with configuration. For example, with ietf-interfaces@2018-02-20 GET {+restconf}/data/ietf-interfaces:interfaces yields configuration, state data and statistics, whereas with the old revision ietf-interfaces@2014-05-08 GET on the same URL yields only configuration. I think this defeats the purpose of NMDA. On the other hand, the short datastore-less URLs are too handy to be simply deprecated. I would therefore propose that {+restconf}/data be essentially an alias for the configuration datastore that the user can directly edit. This means: - with writable it will be an alias to running - if the implementation uses , it will be an alias to . Lada -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Wed Jul 18 20:20:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 891A3130EBD for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 20:20:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rxdcUr0O5eZh for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 20:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC8BD130E9F for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 20:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id B97737A489CD5; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 04:20:49 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.33) by lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 04:20:50 +0100 Received: from DGGEML510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.219]) by DGGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::74d9:c659:fbec:21fa%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 11:20:39 +0800 From: Rohit R Ranade To: Andy Bierman , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Kent Watsen , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] configuration models status and timeline Thread-Index: AQHUHqM849XY4DRnC0m5ZSr85VCYW6SUjU0AgAAyEoCAASHx4A== Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 03:20:38 +0000 Message-ID: <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBDEF0C@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: 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amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o0ipJR480Hab for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 01:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DDD4130DE8 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 01:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 60AB2235C7FD; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 10:41:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 10:41:56 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Ladislav Lhotka Cc: Netconf Message-ID: <20180719084156.llzgfj465hov4s47@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Ladislav Lhotka , Netconf References: <87efg0nxa1.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87efg0nxa1.fsf@nic.cz> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] {+restconf}/data X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:42:03 -0000 Lada, there is no point in changing the definition of {+restconf}/data since this would lead to interoperability issues and hence {+restconf}/data remains what it is. Yes, the new datastore names are longer but we did not want to require globally unique datastore names (which would require some form of a registry and that everybody uses the registry). /js On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 03:45:10PM -0400, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > Hi, > > it seems that using RESTCONF with the updated NMDA-compatible modules > leads to the (IMO undesirable) result where under the "legacy" root > "{+restconf}/data" state data are mixed with configuration. For example, > with ietf-interfaces@2018-02-20 > > GET {+restconf}/data/ietf-interfaces:interfaces > > yields configuration, state data and statistics, whereas with the old > revision ietf-interfaces@2014-05-08 GET on the same URL yields only > configuration. I think this defeats the purpose of NMDA. > > On the other hand, the short datastore-less URLs are too handy to be > simply deprecated. I would therefore propose that {+restconf}/data be > essentially an alias for the configuration datastore that the user can > directly edit. This means: > > - with writable it will be an alias to running > > - if the implementation uses , it will be an alias to > . > > Lada > > -- > Ladislav Lhotka > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Jul 19 02:41:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53519130F14 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 02:41:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hHejo3Z9yV4Q for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 02:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 101E1130F1B for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 02:41:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10072; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531993263; x=1533202863; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=6DufHpqdcZU/jHk7+QeTld5uzHcLgtLZ0sjRs8VQ/zY=; b=lAdXhHrX7M3DqU4snyhAmErM04i1fBDCm59REnDwMF8EfLs7FD7KuY4B p6GOUfRtA5YzINQ5WRf8wuOWvAxKhCR8yzcW7Wnk5GzYgzwuQMz0NzxOH /uPv+KdWpjHBzn6RHwhBTCtFZfwBmq7qZOI4XgP0VWRo+6eYF/l+cIK5s g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C1BwBLW1Bb/5BdJa1ZAxkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGDIypjfzKDdJQvggyDOJIDFIFmCx+ETQIXgmohNhYBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAgEBAm0cDIU2AQEBAwEjEToLBQkCAgEIDgIFAwICCR0CAgIZFxUQAgQODRM?= =?us-ascii?q?EgjZMgXcIqUOBLopHBQWBBod3gVc/gRGCE36ESAESAQktChkNgjqCVQKHYoY?= =?us-ascii?q?li2AJAo8ggUyEEogWkXUCERSBJCQFLGFxcBWDJYYzih4BihIFCheBCIEaAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,374,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="422806794" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 19 Jul 2018 09:41:02 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (xch-rtp-012.cisco.com [64.101.220.152]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6J9f1nd014291 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:41:01 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (64.101.220.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 05:41:00 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 05:41:00 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Andy Bierman , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUHhHrAK87NKpG2E+Ouz7jjC6MRKSUNnVAgAEH3gCAAPvOkA== Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:41:00 +0000 Message-ID: <6707abca9924442083ef165ce1345b7e@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180718133200.u7fpsv3xanb2nosr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180718133200.u7fpsv3xanb2nosr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.219.225] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.152, xch-rtp-012.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-8.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:41:07 -0000 SGkgSnVlcmdlbiwNCg0KPiBGcm9tOiBKdWVyZ2VuIFNjaG9lbndhZWxkZXIsIEp1bHkgMTgsIDIw MTggOTozMiBBTQ0KPiANCj4gT24gV2VkLCBKdWwgMTgsIDIwMTggYXQgMDM6NDE6MTlBTSArMDAw 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Hi, Rob= ert:

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:<= /span> Robert Wilton [mailto:rwilton@cisco.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C217=C8=D5 20:09
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>; netconf@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF

 

Hi Qin,

Having read this draft, I can understand what the d= raft is proposing, but I don't currently understand why this is useful.&nbs= p; Specifically, I don't find the example that is in the draft as compellin= g.  If the desire is to set the MTU and enable the interface as one configuration operation, then wouldn't the cli= ent just configure both mtu and enabled leaves at the same time.  Why = is a separate action required here to enable the interface?

So I'm struggling to think of actions that apply to= configuration datastores where the same behaviour cannot just be achieved = via a simple configuration manipulation.  One use case could be wantin= g to repeat the same configuration on many interfaces at the same time, but for this, I think that a configuration te= mplating solution would be preferable rather than using actions, and a temp= lating would probably just reused edit-config/edit-data.  So, if you h= ave some other more concrete examples of actions that apply to configuration datastores, that might be helpful.<= o:p>

[Qin]: Good point, but I am= not sure action and configuration templating can always exchangeable and s= erve the same purpose.

Another question (which I think is similar to the o= ne that Eric has also asked) is whether to have transactions that mix confi= guration operations and action operations on <operational>.  E.g= . perhaps enable an interface and reset the counters at the same time, or perform some config change and establish a dynamic su= bscription at the same time.  But I question how robust this would end= up being (I'm not generally a fan of distributed transactions - they never= seem to be as robust as they claim to be).  Perhaps one for future thought and discussion.

[Qin]: we are not looking f= or complicating transaction, we are not looking for multiple operations lea= ding to unexpected consequence. The case we are focusing on is when action = can be used with other operation in the compatible way,

The idea will be close to w= orkflow handling. Operation can be arranged in sequence. Maybe have other c= ases.

Thanks,
Rob

 

On 03/07/2018 22:01, Qin Wu wro= te:

Hi, Folks:

We have posted inline action ca= pability draft on Jun 28:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/c= urrent/msg14823.html

 

One comment we received from the list is:


https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/cur=
rent/msg14863.html


The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment.=



Therefore we would like to draw=
 you attention again on this draft


https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zheng-n=
etconf-inline-action-capability-01


We would like to receive more r=
eview and feedback on this draft, thanks.


 


-Qin











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--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA9AF56E33nkgeml513mbxchi_-- From nobody Thu Jul 19 04:58:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF1813102F for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 04:57:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t_37ds_k2IKb for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 04:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0ABFE13108B for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 04:57:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2858; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532001474; x=1533211074; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pFuGs0ojc0AYJwXPVo9LULV9tIKaAFfxDAPmIZGPOiw=; b=Tv3UPcZ829UeHktm3Km+vGHF+qh0nXpmULXy9OLW7n6BNzJ1hW0NYmGJ 4qTgu+yqKq1ruG2uPLlVORHxNF9XkmyiSNl1pO7qle4utPXMeCI4F4hPK PYTNf5TEdrAi5vESr3e/9JGIN0naApnC0EqfZefFpkI77Jl9Nl3TTVjS3 M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AOAgCie1Bb/xbLJq1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYUdEiiDfohjjSwIJJU7gXoLhGwCgyM1FwECAQECAQECbSi?= =?us-ascii?q?FNwEFIw8BBVEJAg4KAgIjAwICRhEGAQwGAgEBF4MFggCOD5tHgS6EXYVugQu?= =?us-ascii?q?JTj+BOAyCMC6DGQSEX4JVAploCY8mBoFEhBKCSSWFKIxIhVWBQwE1gVIzGgg?= =?us-ascii?q?bFYMkkG8jMAGLbQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,374,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="5278939" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 19 Jul 2018 11:57:52 +0000 Received: from [10.61.241.77] ([10.61.241.77]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6JBvpHc027715; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 11:57:51 GMT To: Qin Wu , "netconf@ietf.org" References: From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 07:57:51 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.241.77, [10.61.241.77] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 11:58:06 -0000 Hi Qin, Can you please provide some concrete example of the problem that needs to be solved here, and that can't be solved by existing tools. I agree that transactional chained operations could be done, but I'm not convinced that they should be done.  E.g. if the problem can be solved in a simpler way then that it better.  E.g. considering enabling an interface and clearing counters at the same time.  Obviously if the interface is disabled, then a client could clear the counters first, then enable the interface, no transaction is required. The more stuff that we add to NETCONF/YANG, the more complex it becomes and more expensive it becomes to implement and use. So, for me, I think that a compelling problem statement would help evaluate whether this enhancement is really required. Thanks, Rob On 19/07/2018 07:40, Qin Wu wrote: > Hi, All: > -----邮件原件----- > 发件人: Robert Wilton [mailto:rwilton@cisco.com] > 发送时间: 2018年7月17日 22:13 > 收件人: Robert Wilton ; Qin Wu ; netconf@ietf.org > 主题: Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF > > > > On 17/07/2018 09:25, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 08:08:47AM -0400, Robert Wilton wrote:Hi Qi >>> Hi Qin, >>> >>> Having read this draft, I can understand what the draft is proposing, >>> but I don't currently understand why this is useful. Specifically, I >>> don't find the example that is in the draft as compelling.  If the >>> desire is to set the MTU and enable the interface as one >>> configuration operation, then wouldn't the client just configure both >>> mtu and enabled leaves at the same time.  Why is a separate action required here to enable the interface? >>> >> I have asked myself the same question multiple times. ;-) >> >> If people want engineer transactions consisting of multiple >> operations, then they should do this for combinations of _arbitrary_ >> operations. At the end, edit-config is just an operation like >> edit-data or any other operation. > I agree. > > [Qin]: Good point, this is exactly what we propose to do. but in the current draft, we haven't made this clearly. > In addition, we think action is still a special operation, need to be handled in the different way from other operations. > >> Personally, I do not think heavy weight transactions is the way to go >> but if people want to engineer this, please make the solution at least >> generic and not bound to edit-config or something like that. > I also agree to both points. > > [Qin]: in our implementation practice, > The action can be also be applied to get-config, get-data, so you are right, our intention > Is to define it in the generic way. > Thanks, > Rob > >> /js >> From nobody Thu Jul 19 05:07:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D9D1294D7 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 05:07:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sX7wEX6y7ZWG for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 05:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE7C3127332 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 05:06:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=17325; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532002017; x=1533211617; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=xZsEioliECBDtj70vx+KliHthtIv2LjVZTAbAW4vFrk=; b=hGzeUo3PizW9OdR4JOfn//hqyh5rflUlDN0QYNFsqyVc5+7Hs2IhJ0KP 2NZD2xTH3xRtgQmB36k9IxMHt5W1OvmHhBUkU7IcJCA8k3LpqLKa9kkX3 LuB5FGl6wUDYmuHUCs8QtAOfQCFfWC5HxevSkMvYUWgBaco8ifn3lz2gz s=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,374,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="5279380" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 19 Jul 2018 12:06:56 +0000 Received: from [10.61.241.77] ([10.61.241.77]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6JC6tTN000731; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 12:06:55 GMT To: Qin Wu , "netconf@ietf.org" References: From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <48099631-578b-4ab8-c775-2bc9dea58bb0@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:06:55 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------94C1EC3E11ACA9175D937A8F" Content-Language: en-US X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.241.77, [10.61.241.77] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 12:07:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------94C1EC3E11ACA9175D937A8F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Qin, On 19/07/2018 07:51, Qin Wu wrote: > > Hi, Robert: > > *发件人:*Robert Wilton [mailto:rwilton@cisco.com] > *发送时间:*2018年7月17日20:09 > *收件人:*Qin Wu ; netconf@ietf.org > *抄送:*Eric Voit (evoit) > *主题:*Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for > NETCONF > > Hi Qin, > > Having read this draft, I can understand what the draft is proposing, > but I don't currently understand why this is useful.  Specifically, I > don't find the example that is in the draft as compelling.  If the > desire is to set the MTU and enable the interface as one configuration > operation, then wouldn't the client just configure both mtu and > enabled leaves at the same time.  Why is a separate action required > here to enable the interface? > > So I'm struggling to think of actions that apply to configuration > datastores where the same behaviour cannot just be achieved via a > simple configuration manipulation.  One use case could be wanting to > repeat the same configuration on many interfaces at the same time, but > for this, I think that a configuration templating solution would be > preferable rather than using actions, and a templating would probably > just reused edit-config/edit-data.  So, if you have some other more > concrete examples of actions that apply to configuration datastores, > that might be helpful. > > [Qin]: Good point, but I am not sure action and configuration > templating can always exchangeable and serve the same purpose. > Sure, so please can you provide the example of where it isn't exchangeable, so that can be discussed/evaluated. > Another question (which I think is similar to the one that Eric has > also asked) is whether to have transactions that mix configuration > operations and action operations on .  E.g. perhaps > enable an interface and reset the counters at the same time, or > perform some config change and establish a dynamic subscription at the > same time.  But I question how robust this would end up being (I'm not > generally a fan of distributed transactions - they never seem to be as > robust as they claim to be).  Perhaps one for future thought and > discussion. > > [Qin]: we are not looking for complicating transaction, we are not > looking for multiple operations leading to unexpected consequence. The > case we are focusing on is when action can be used with other > operation in the compatible way, > So, why can't the NMS or controller just sequence these actions? > The idea will be close to workflow handling. Operation can be arranged > in sequence. Maybe have other cases. > OK, but please can you concrete examples of what is not working today.  E.g. what actual system operation is being performed that either doesn't work today, or is not reliable, or is too complex, and would benefit from this. Thanks, Rob > Thanks, > Rob > > On 03/07/2018 22:01, Qin Wu wrote: > > Hi, Folks: > > We have posted inline action capability draft on Jun 28: > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14823.html > > One comment we received from the list is: > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14863.html > > The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment. > > Therefore we would like to draw you attention again on this draft > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01 > > We would like to receive more review and feedback on this draft, > thanks. > > -Qin > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --------------94C1EC3E11ACA9175D937A8F Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Qin,

On 19/07/2018 07:51, Qin Wu wrote:

Hi, Robert:

 

发件人: Robert Wilton [mailto:rwilton@cisco.com]
发送时间: 2018年7月17日 20:09
收件人: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>; netconf@ietf.org
抄送: Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>
主题: Re: [Netconf] Solicit comments on inline action capability for NETCONF

 

Hi Qin,

Having read this draft, I can understand what the draft is proposing, but I don't currently understand why this is useful.  Specifically, I don't find the example that is in the draft as compelling.  If the desire is to set the MTU and enable the interface as one configuration operation, then wouldn't the client just configure both mtu and enabled leaves at the same time.  Why is a separate action required here to enable the interface?

So I'm struggling to think of actions that apply to configuration datastores where the same behaviour cannot just be achieved via a simple configuration manipulation.  One use case could be wanting to repeat the same configuration on many interfaces at the same time, but for this, I think that a configuration templating solution would be preferable rather than using actions, and a templating would probably just reused edit-config/edit-data.  So, if you have some other more concrete examples of actions that apply to configuration datastores, that might be helpful.

[Qin]: Good point, but I am not sure action and configuration templating can always exchangeable and serve the same purpose.

Sure, so please can you provide the example of where it isn't exchangeable, so that can be discussed/evaluated.

Another question (which I think is similar to the one that Eric has also asked) is whether to have transactions that mix configuration operations and action operations on <operational>.  E.g. perhaps enable an interface and reset the counters at the same time, or perform some config change and establish a dynamic subscription at the same time.  But I question how robust this would end up being (I'm not generally a fan of distributed transactions - they never seem to be as robust as they claim to be).  Perhaps one for future thought and discussion.

[Qin]: we are not looking for complicating transaction, we are not looking for multiple operations leading to unexpected consequence. The case we are focusing on is when action can be used with other operation in the compatible way,

So, why can't the NMS or controller just sequence these actions?

The idea will be close to workflow handling. Operation can be arranged in sequence. Maybe have other cases.

OK, but please can you concrete examples of what is not working today.  E.g. what actual system operation is being performed that either doesn't work today, or is not reliable, or is too complex, and would benefit from this.

Thanks,
Rob

Thanks,
Rob

 

On 03/07/2018 22:01, Qin Wu wrote:

Hi, Folks:

We have posted inline action capability draft on Jun 28:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14823.html

 
One comment we received from the list is:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14863.html
The v-(01) is uploaded to address this comment.

Therefore we would like to draw you attention again on this draft

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zheng-netconf-inline-action-capability-01

We would like to receive more review and feedback on this draft, thanks.

 

-Qin




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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

 


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with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:43:17 -0400 From: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" To: Andy Bierman , "Eric Voit (evoit)" CC: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUHVo97/1MCRrcckGjuypYd3RC86STLH0AgAA6yQCAAIYGAIAAPuSAgABuiYCAADVFAIABwjKA Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:43:17 +0000 Message-ID: <5366188A-111C-49ED-95AF-82A5171750CC@cisco.com> References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.52] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <055BC0123472474C96368C15781F1565@emea.cisco.com> 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header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M5nNR8_WfUZZ for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54AB7130F0D for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id s12-v6so8011494ljj.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:02:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KDFk1vRlXS8lFvLTNS/RYfyj9/bC4mSY5zsnojVzYXM=; b=hdB+RxTbbU/ITYNYbiUE7o1K/+YtPhQ+qruQuPvpKJcNnKCaKghHdAWaPAreDbK0M7 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfx56BZU78IGj8rI4mkwwgP4TkRYvE0R3KeuRHiCmdxBsCKLGHYDgMzr/3X8VOVCuAPMRabPNh8h7b1S2SIldA= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:97c8:: with SMTP id m8-v6mr8653713ljj.52.1532012528544; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:02:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:02:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5366188A-111C-49ED-95AF-82A5171750CC@cisco.com> References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <5366188A-111C-49ED-95AF-82A5171750CC@cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:02:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Juergen Schoenwaelder , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008e3f5f05715b762b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:02:17 -0000 --0000000000008e3f5f05715b762b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 6:43 AM, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote: > Please see [Tim] below. > -- > Cisco Systems Canada Co. > 2000 Innovation Drive > Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8 > Preferences > Unsubscribe > Privacy > > From: Andy Bierman > Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 2:52 AM > To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" > Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "Tim > Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" < > netconf@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > Hi, > > I do not see much standards value in the configured subscriptions, from a > client developer's POV. > They are optional to implement and require vendor-specific details to be > usable. > [Tim] I agree that for configured subscriptions, we will need to match to > vendor-specific implementation specifics for the foreseeable future. > > This makes the module look like a just another proprietary YANG module to clients. > I can't think of any use-cases where the receiver has perfect knowledge o= f > the > configured subscriptions (and is therefore ready to start receiving > notifications > on those subscriptions without any operations) yet cannot invoke > > once the CallHome session is established. This seems to be a subjective > design choice. > [Tim] From the beginning of the specifications, configured subscriptions > didn=E2=80=99t require the use of YANG RPCs. Cisco=E2=80=99s DNAC contr= oller operates > without invoking YANG RPCs, and uses configured subscriptions today. > > Standards are much more useful on the client-side if there is at least one known value that can be used for each object. This module standardizes what to push, not really how to push. In theory that can be defined elsewhere and this module just reflects which method is in use. Andy I am OK with the configured subscriptions only because I have no intention > of > implementing it at this time. I can see how other reviewers within the > IETF may not be willing > to give such a free pass. > > There is no rule that says standard has to be complete and cannot depend > on other pieces > still under development. Seems to me YANG Push will be stuck in MISREF > state for awhile anyway, > but all these external dependencies are by design choice, so the WG must > be OK with the > delays that this will cause. > [Tim] In the current drafts, there are no external dependencies to non-RF= C > call home specifications. I believe the authors=E2=80=99 intents for thi= s is to > avoid such a MISREF. > > > Andy > > > > > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 8:41 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) > wrote: > From: Andy Bierman, July 17, 2018 5:06 PM > > Hi, > > I agree with Juergen that there are TBD features in SN. > > I also agree with the co-authors that it would be too much work to > refactor now. > It should be faster to complete SN then split it and start over. > > The main issues here seem to be: > 1) no end-point for the configured receiver > > There should not be any endpoint in SN. Endpoint specifics would > need to be exposed in the transport document. > > Note that we tried for years to have something transport independent for > receivers in SN. I.e., there was an endpoint =E2=80=9Caddress=E2=80=9D = in the SN from > 00-v13. Kent and Martin argued it out of the SN draft. For more on thi= s, > there is plenty extensive email alias archive on this subject. As a > result, with v14, =E2=80=9Caddress=E2=80=9D is gone. > > To summarize Kent & Martin=E2=80=99s argument which led to the v14 change= : current > endpoint =E2=80=9Caddress=E2=80=9D might be confused with call home. We = won=E2=80=99t agree with > anything that might conflict with call home. It is better to do nothing = if > we can=E2=80=99t agree on something. By doing nothing, vendors can augme= nt in what > is needed. > > For v14 we didn=E2=80=99t just ignore the hole removing =E2=80=9Caddress= =E2=80=9D made of course. > Many email iterations over the last several months have proposed YANG > augmentation code for those people who *do* want a leafref to > netconf-server.yang now. So if it makes this =E2=80=9Cendpoint completen= ess=E2=80=9D issue > go away, I would happily put an informational appendix into NETCONF-notif= . > This appendix would include the necessary augmentations to the leafref > which Kent and I worked through. > > But we should go no farther than an informational appendix on this. The > current solution of doing nothing is actually a far more compelling answe= r > than the inserting a mandatory (but then deviated away) leafref to an > unimplemented ietf call home model. This would allow the =E2=80=9Csolut= ion is > complete=E2=80=9D answer to match to what dominates the industry: vendors= who have > their own key and call home infrastructure. > > > 2) CallHome procedures and server requirements such as > processing normal NC or RC requests on the session > > This is described in draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications, > section 5.2. > > 3) no MUST or SHOULD implement values for transport > > This is on purpose. IoT is not going to want a NETCONF transport default= . > The current draft allows identities to be added for transports supporte= d > by a platform. It is not possible to configure a transport the platform > doesn=E2=80=99t have. > > I would like to get YANG Push done but not at the expense of the review > cycles. > There is nothing stopping the WG from working faster (e.g. virtual > interim). > > If the WG chairs agreed to a final set of issues as input to the meeting. > And agreed to abide by what came out of this interim as binding, final > consensus, it might be a possibility. > > Just declaring everything done gets it out of the WG faster, > but may not mean the RFC will be out faster. > > Topics #1 & #2 above are transport specific. It would seem getting SN & > YP to review beyond the WG should speed the final process. > > Eric > > > Andy > > > > > Andy > > > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > I see several pieces but I do not see how the pieces give me a > workable solution nor do I see how such a solution gives me > interoperability. > > If I configure a subscription, how does the flow of notifications work > over NC and RC? How do I configure where the connection goes? What is > the RC resource that provides me the notification stream? How will > all of this work if the endpoints in the future want to negotiate > different encodings? > > Since you said you implemented this: What exactly did you implement, > what did not leave out, what did have to add to make it work? > > /js > > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 01:20:55PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote: > > Juergen, > > > > To flip this around, I don=E2=80=99t understand where the difficulties = are. > > > > But here=E2=80=99s what I see: > > > > 1. The format of the update notifications should be the same whether > the subscription is dynamic or configured for a given transport and > encoding. I believe we have that. > > 2. There are some differences in out of band notifications when I > last read the drafts in details; these were explained by the different > connection setup contexts. But this is otherwise unrelated to configured > subscriptions. > > 3. Since the transport specific details are now separate from the > base line drafts, it allows transport specific behaviour to decide how th= e > connections (for configured subscriptions) are to be setup. We have usabl= e > variations of =E2=80=9Ccall home=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cdial out=E2=80=9D o= r whatever you want to call it for > the cases we need. Admittedly, we do have to provide augmentations for so= me > of the protocols, but then, that=E2=80=99s the intent of the design. > > > > BTW, my comment below was sent last week. I have no idea how/why it > arrived on the list after the IETF meeting yesterday. > > > > Tim > > > > -- > > Cisco Systems Canada Co. > > 2000 Innovation Drive > > Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8 > > Preferences > > Unsubscribe > > Privacy > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder > > Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder > > Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 1:50 AM > > To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" > > Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now > > > > I do not think that configured subscriptions have been fully worked > > out. Nor do I see how I configure something that actually works. > > Since you have implemented this, perhaps you can help me to understand > > how all this actually works with the text in the current IDs. > > > > /js > > > > On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:10:52PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote: > > Hi, > > As an implementor of the drafts, I suggest enough already: we've been > going down this path for quite some time. > > Please publish both sets (dynamic and configured, and SN and YP) > together. > > Thanks, > > Tim > > > Hi, > > > > > > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could > explicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the choic= es > below they think would lead to the work completing most quickly. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscriptions > > > (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expediting > > > WGLC or > > > modularity) > > > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push.. > > > > > > hums now are: > > > > > > 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions > > > a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequentially) > > > b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > > > > > > 2. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push > > > a. SN first, then YP (published sequentially) > > > b. SN and YP together (published in parallel) > > > > > > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your preso. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kent // chair > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > mailto:Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > -- > > Cisco Systems Canada Co. > > 2000 Innovation Drive > > Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8 > > Preferences > > Unsubscribe > > Privacy > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > --0000000000008e3f5f05715b762b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 6:43 AM, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) <timjenki@cis= co.com> wrote:
Please see [= Tim] below.
--=C2=A0
Cisco Systems Canada Co.
2000 Innovation Drive
Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks= .com>
Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 2:52 AM
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <ev= oit@cisco.com>
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "Tim Jen= kins (timjenki)" <timjenki@ci= sco.com>, "netconf@ietf.org= " <netconf@ietf.org>=
Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now

Hi,

I do not see much standards value in the configured subscriptions, from a c= lient developer's POV.
They are optional to implement and require vendor-specific details to be us= able.
[Tim] I agree that for configured subscriptions, we will need to match to v= endor-specific implementation specifics for the foreseeable future.



This makes the module l= ook like a just another proprietary YANG module to clients.

<= /div>
=C2=A0
I can't think of any use-cases where the receiver has perfect knowledge= of the
configured subscriptions (and is therefore ready to start receiving notific= ations
on those subscriptions without any operations) yet cannot invoke <establ= ish-subscription>
once the CallHome session is established.=C2=A0 This seems to be a subjecti= ve design choice.
[Tim] From the beginning of the specifications, configured subscriptions di= dn=E2=80=99t require the use of YANG RPCs.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Cisco=E2=80=99s DNAC= controller operates without invoking YANG RPCs, and uses configured subscr= iptions today.



Standards are much more= useful on the client-side if there is at least one known
value t= hat can be used for each object.=C2=A0 This module standardizes what to pus= h,
not really how to push.=C2=A0 In theory that can be defined el= sewhere and this module
just reflects which method is in use.



Andy


I am OK with the configured subscriptions only because I have no intention = of=C2=A0
implementing it at this time.=C2=A0 I can see how other reviewers within th= e IETF may not be willing
to give such a free pass.

There is no rule that says =C2=A0standard has to be complete and cannot dep= end on other pieces
still under development.=C2=A0 Seems to me YANG Push will be stuck in MISRE= F state for awhile anyway,
but all these external dependencies are by design choice, so the WG must be= OK with the
delays that this will cause. =C2=A0
[Tim] In the current drafts, there are no external dependencies to non-RFC = call home specifications.=C2=A0 I believe the authors=E2=80=99 intents for = this is to avoid such a MISREF.


Andy




On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 8:41 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
From: Andy Bierman, July 17, 2018 5:06 PM
=C2=A0
Hi,
=C2=A0
I agree with Juergen that there are TBD features in SN.
=C2=A0
I also agree with the co-authors that it would be too much work to refactor= now.
It should be faster to complete SN then split it and start over.
=C2=A0
The main issues here seem to be:
=C2=A01) no end-point for the configured receiver
=C2=A0
<Eric> There should not be any endpoint in SN.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Endpoint s= pecifics would need to be exposed in the transport document.
=C2=A0
Note that we tried for years to have something transport independent for re= ceivers in SN.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I.e., there was an endpoint =E2=80=9Caddress=E2= =80=9D in the SN from 00-v13.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Kent and Martin argued it out of = the SN draft.=C2=A0 For more on this, there is plenty extensive email alias= archive on this subject.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As a result, with v14, =E2=80=9Caddre= ss=E2=80=9D is gone.
=C2=A0
To summarize Kent & Martin=E2=80=99s argument which led to the v14 chan= ge: current endpoint =E2=80=9Caddress=E2=80=9D might be confused with call = home.=C2=A0 We won=E2=80=99t agree with anything that might conflict with c= all home.=C2=A0 It is better to do nothing if we can=E2=80=99t agree on som= ething.=C2=A0 By doing nothing, vendors can augment in what is needed. =C2= =A0
=C2=A0
For v14 we didn=E2=80=99t just ignore the hole removing =E2=80=9Caddress=E2= =80=9D made of course.=C2=A0 Many email iterations over the last several mo= nths have proposed YANG augmentation code for those people who *do* want a = leafref to netconf-server.yang now.=C2=A0 So if it makes this =E2=80=9Cendp= oint completeness=E2=80=9D issue go away, I would happily put an informatio= nal appendix into NETCONF-notif.=C2=A0 This appendix would include the nece= ssary augmentations to the leafref which Kent and I worked through.
=C2=A0
But we should go no farther than an informational appendix on this.=C2=A0 T= he current solution of doing nothing is actually a far more compelling answ= er than the inserting a mandatory (but then deviated away) leafref to an un= implemented ietf call home model.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This would allow the =E2=80= =9Csolution is complete=E2=80=9D answer to match to what dominates the indu= stry: vendors who have their own key and call home infrastructure. =C2=A0= =C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A02) CallHome procedures and server requirements such as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0processing normal NC or RC requests on the session
=C2=A0
This is described in draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications, s= ection 5.2.
=C2=A0
=C2=A03) no MUST or SHOULD implement values for transport
=C2=A0
This is on purpose.=C2=A0 IoT is not going to want a NETCONF transport defa= ult. =C2=A0=C2=A0The current draft allows identities to be added for transp= orts supported by a platform.=C2=A0 It is not possible to configure a trans= port the platform doesn=E2=80=99t have.
=C2=A0
I would like to get YANG Push done but not at the expense of the review cyc= les.
There is nothing stopping the WG from working faster (e.g. virtual interim)= .
=C2=A0
If the WG chairs agreed to a final set of issues as input to the meeting.= =C2=A0 And agreed to abide by what came out of this interim as binding, fin= al consensus, it might be a possibility.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Just declaring everything done gets it out of the WG faster,
but may not mean the RFC will be out faster.
=C2=A0
Topics #1 & #2 above are transport specific.=C2=A0 It would seem gettin= g SN & YP to review beyond the WG should speed the final process.
=C2=A0
Eric
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Andy
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Andy
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-univer= sity.de> wrote:
I see several pieces but I do not see how the pieces give me a
workable solution nor do I see how such a solution gives me
interoperability.

If I configure a subscription, how does the flow of notifications work
over NC and RC? How do I configure where the connection goes?=C2=A0 What is=
the RC resource that provides me the notification stream?=C2=A0 How will all of this work if the endpoints in the future want to negotiate
different encodings?

Since you said you implemented this: What exactly did you implement,
what did not leave out, what did have to add to make it work?

/js

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 01:20:55PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote:
> Juergen,
>
> To flip this around, I don=E2=80=99t understand where the difficulties= are.
>
> But here=E2=80=99s what I see:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A01.=C2=A0 The format of the update notifications should be = the same whether the subscription is dynamic or configured for a given tran= sport and encoding. I believe we have that.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A02.=C2=A0 There are some differences in out of band notific= ations when I last read the drafts in details; these were explained by the = different connection setup contexts. But this is otherwise unrelated to con= figured subscriptions.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A03.=C2=A0 Since the transport specific details are now sepa= rate from the base line drafts, it allows transport specific behaviour to d= ecide how the connections (for configured subscriptions) are to be setup. W= e have usable variations of =E2=80=9Ccall home=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cdial ou= t=E2=80=9D or whatever you want to call it for the cases we need. Admittedl= y, we do have to provide augmentations for some of the protocols, but then,= that=E2=80=99s the intent of the design.
>
> BTW, my comment below was sent last week. I have no idea how/why it ar= rived on the list after the IETF meeting yesterday.
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Cisco Systems Canada Co.
> 2000 Innovation Drive
> Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8
> Preferences <http://www.cisco.com/off= er/subscribe/?sid=3D000478326>
> Unsubscribe <http://www.cisco.com/off= er/unsubscribe/?sid=3D000478327>
> Privacy <http://www.cisco.com/web/siteassets/legal/privacy.html>
>
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 1:50 AM
> To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
> Cc: "netconf@ietf.org&quo= t; <netconf@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now
>
> I do not think that configured subscriptions have been fully worked > out. Nor do I see how I configure something that actually works.
> Since you have implemented this, perhaps you can help me to understand=
> how all this actually works with the text in the current IDs.
>
> /js
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:10:52PM +0000, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote= :
> Hi,
> As an implementor of the drafts, I suggest enough already: we've b= een going down this path for quite some time.
> Please publish both sets (dynamic and configured, and SN and YP) toget= her.
> Thanks,
> Tim
> > Hi,
> >
> > It might be useful (at least to me), if the draft authors could e= xplicitly indicate what their preference is, and also which of the choices = below they think would lead to the work completing most quickly.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > On 12/07/2018 19:48, Kent Watsen wrote:
> > I would like to strongly +1 retaining the configured subscription= s
> > (not necessarily in the Push draft itself for the sake of expedit= ing
> > WGLC or
> > modularity)
> > Ah, so here's another hum question: with or without yang push= ..
> >
> > hums now are:
> >
> >=C2=A0 1. dynamic subscriptions ~ configured subscriptions
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0a. dynamic first, then configured (published sequenti= ally)
> >=C2=A0 b. dynamic and configure together (published in parallel) > >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A02. subscribed-notifications ~ yang-push
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a. SN first, then YP=C2=A0 (published sequenti= ally)
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0b. SN and YP together (published in parallel)<= br> > >
> > Eric/Alex: please include a slide with this somewhere in your pre= so.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kent // chair
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> mailto:Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf=
> --
> Cisco Systems Canada Co.
> 2000 Innovation Drive
> Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8
> Preferences <http://www.cisco.com/off= er/subscribe/?sid=3D000478326>
> Unsubscribe <http://www.cisco.com/off= er/unsubscribe/?sid=3D000478327>
> Privacy <http://www.cisco.com/web/siteassets/legal/privacy.html>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org<mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf=
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs U= niversity Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1= | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= ;https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br> =C2=A0



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charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kent, Andy and Rohit, Could we use a get request with an empty filter, as defined in section 6.4.2 of RFC6241? This looks like the smallest and less impacting RPC defined in the RFC. Isn't it a good candidate for an aliveness check? Yves On 19-07-18 05:20, Rohit R Ranade wrote: > > *From:*Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Andy > Bierman > *Sent:* 18 July 2018 23:32 > *To:* Juergen Schoenwaelder ; > Kent Watsen ; netconf@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] configuration models status and timeline > > > > Ideally, the keep alive would just be handled at the session > layer. I am > not sure where the NC spec allows > > C: C: xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"/> > S: S: xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"/> > > otherwise one could define a noop RPC (I am not sure invoking a fake > edit-config is necessarily a good idea). > > I prefer an RPC for this purpose. > > It would be better if the session counters were not affected, > > but that would require protocol changes. > > Causing error counters to increment for keep-alives is bad. > > */[Rohit R Ranade] /*+1 > > Andy > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf --------------FDF287CFE12BE3189152B510 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Kent, Andy and Rohit,

Could we use a get request with an empty filter, as defined in section 6.4.2 of RFC6241?

This looks like the smallest and less impacting RPC defined in the RFC.

Isn't it a good candidate for an aliveness check?

Yves

On 19-07-18 05:20, Rohit R Ranade wrote:

From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
Sent: 18 July 2018 23:32
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>; netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] configuration models status and timeline

 

 

 

<snip>

Ideally, the keep alive would just be handled at the session layer. I am
not sure where the NC spec allows

C: <rpc message-id="101"
C:      xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"/>
S: <rpc-reply message-id="101"
S:      xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"/>

otherwise one could define a noop RPC (I am not sure invoking a fake
edit-config is necessarily a good idea).

 

 

I prefer an <no-op> RPC for this purpose. 

It would be better if the session counters were not affected,

but that would require protocol changes.

Causing error counters to increment for keep-alives is bad.

[Rohit R Ranade] +1

 

Andy

 

 



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Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d010c405715d0c2c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:55:51 -0000 --000000000000d010c405715d0c2c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 9:12 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > To address some of the concerns being raise here, I suggest the following: > > 1. make the augmentation of a "notif" model mandatory (see the '+' lines > below), to ensure that there is always something more than just a name > being configured per receiver. > > container receivers { > list receiver { > key "name"; > min-elements 1; > leaf name { > type string; > } > + choice transport { > + mandatory true; > + description > + "Defines the transport-specific configuration data > + for the selected transport."; > + } > > > The notion of an empty mandatory choice really stretches the definition of YANG Conformance. This says you cannot possible implement the SN module without some other module augmenting it. Yet there is no way in YANG (besides import) to say the module bar needs to be present if module foo is present. 2. modify netconf-notif to augment-in the ietf-netconf-server grouping: > > module ietf-netconf-notifications { > prefix nn; > import ietf-netconf-server { prefix ncs; } > import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } > > // define a *local* netconf-server instance > container "netconf-server" { > uses "ncs:netconf-server-grouping" { > // prune out the "listen" subtree > refine "listen" { > if-feature "never-supported-feature"; > } > // disable dependency on the "call-home" feature > refine "call-home" { > if-feature "true"; // needed? (see 7950, s7.20.2, P3) > // valid? (unsure) > } > } > } > > The use of constant (true or false) values for if-feature are not supported and the use of dummy features that are always supposed to be a constant value seems to abuse the intent of YANG features. Refactoring the groupings would be the cleanest solution. > // add leafref to above locally-configured call-home instances > augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receiver" { > leaf netconf-endpoint { > type leafref { > path "/nn:netconf-server/nn:call-home/nn:netconf-client/nn: > name"; > } > } > } > } > > > 3. do the identical thing to the restconf-nofif draft: > > module ietf-restconf-notifications { > prefix rn; > import ietf-restconf-server { prefix rcs; } > import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } > > // define a *local* restconf-server instance > container "restconf-server" { > uses "rcs:restconf-server-grouping" { > // prune out the "listen" subtree > refine "listen" { > if-feature "never-supported-feature"; > } > // disable dependency on the "call-home" feature > refine "call-home" { > if-feature "true"; // needed? (see 7950, s7.20.2, P3) > // valid? (unsure) > } > } > } > > // add leafref to above locally-configured call-home instances > augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receiver" { > leaf restconf-endpoint { > type leafref { > path "/rn:restconf-server/rn:call-home/rn:netconf-client/rn: > name"; > } > } > } > } > > The problem with identityref leafs is that the client has no clue what the server will support. The problem gets much worse for the client dealing with a mandatory empty choice. Andy > > Doing so would fill in the missing piece folks are asking to see. Yes, > it introduces a normative reference to the client/server work, but it is > consistent with the result from Monday's NETCONF "dynamic ~ configured" > discussion and, besides, that work seems almost done now. > > There still might be an issue regarding the server pushing notifications > immediately after the NC/RC session starts, but I feel that by having a > *conf-server instance inside the "notif" model, we can more easily claim > that the behavior is okay. > > The current restconf-notif draft is more https-focused, but I feel that, > if there is a goal to have a plain-https transport, then that should be > defined in a separate "https-notif" draft. > > Currently the restconf-client-server model does not enable the > configuration of the "http-version" to be used. I cringe to say this, > but we might consider introducing an "https-client-server" draft that > the "restconf-client-server" draft could be refactored to depend on. > If this were done, then said "https-notif" draft could use the "https- > client-grouping", and thus be consistent with the pattern we're > establishing here. > > To address the interoperability issue, it seems we either: 1) define > a super-simple mandatory-to-implement "notif" layer (I would recommend > https-client for this) or 2) a good mandatory-to-implement "notif" > layer (e.g., binary over DTLS and per line-card, per the udp-pub-channel > draft), or 3) do nothing, leaving it to the market to decide, similar > to how RFC 8040 doesn't require a specific encoding (XML, JSON, etc.) > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --000000000000d010c405715d0c2c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 9:12 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

To address some of the concerns being raise here, I suggest the following:<= br>
1. make the augmentation of a "notif" model mandatory (see the &#= 39;+' lines
=C2=A0 =C2=A0below), to ensure that there is always something more than jus= t a name
=C2=A0 =C2=A0being configured per receiver.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 container receivers {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 list receiver {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 key "name";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 min-elements 1;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf name {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type string;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 choice transport {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mandatory true;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Defines the transpor= t-specific configuration data
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for the selected tra= nsport.";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }




The notion of an empty = mandatory choice really stretches the definition of YANG Conformance.
=
This says you cannot possible implement the SN module without some oth= er module augmenting it.
Yet there is no way in YANG (besides imp= ort) to say the module bar needs to be present
if module foo is p= resent.


2. modify netconf-notif to augment-in the ietf-netconf-server grouping:

=C2=A0 module ietf-netconf-notifications {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefix nn;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 import ietf-netconf-server { prefix ncs; }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; }

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 // define a *local* netconf-server instance
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 container "netconf-server" {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 uses "ncs:netconf-server-grouping" {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 // prune out the "listen" subtree
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 refine "listen" {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if-feature "never-supported-feature= ";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 // disable dependency on the "call-home&qu= ot; feature
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 refine "call-home" {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if-feature "true"; // needed? = (see 7950, s7.20.2, P3)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0// valid? (unsure)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }




The use = of constant (true or false) values for if-feature are not supported and
the use of dummy features that are always supposed to be a constant = value
seems to abuse the intent of YANG features.

<= /div>
Refactoring the groupings would be the cleanest solution.


=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 // add leafref to above locally-configured call-home instance= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:recei= vers/sn:receiver" {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf netconf-endpoint {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type leafref {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 path "/nn:netconf-server/nn:call-home/nn:netconf-client/nn:name";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 }


3. do the identical thing to the restconf-nofif draft:

=C2=A0 module ietf-restconf-notifications {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefix rn;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 import ietf-restconf-server { prefix rcs; }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; }

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 // define a *local* restconf-server instance
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 container "restconf-server" {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 uses "rcs:restconf-server-grouping" {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 // prune out the "listen" subtree
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 refine "listen" {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if-feature "never-supported-feature= ";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 // disable dependency on the "call-home&qu= ot; feature
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 refine "call-home" {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if-feature "true"; // needed? = (see 7950, s7.20.2, P3)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0// valid? (unsure)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 // add leafref to above locally-configured call-home instance= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:recei= vers/sn:receiver" {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf restconf-endpoint {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type leafref {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 path "/rn:restconf-server/rn:call-<= wbr>home/rn:netconf-client/rn:name";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 }



The problem with identi= tyref leafs is that the client has no clue what the
server will s= upport. The problem gets much worse for the client dealing
with a= mandatory empty choice.


Andy
=

=C2=A0

Doing so would fill in the missing piece folks are asking to see.=C2=A0 Yes= ,
it introduces a normative reference to the client/server work, but it is consistent with the result from Monday's NETCONF "dynamic ~ config= ured"
discussion and, besides, that work seems almost done now.

There still might be an issue regarding the server pushing notifications immediately after the NC/RC session starts, but I feel that by having a
*conf-server instance inside the "notif" model, we can more easil= y claim
that the behavior is okay.

The current restconf-notif draft is more https-focused, but I feel that, if there is a goal to have a plain-https transport, then that should be
defined in a separate "https-notif" draft.

Currently the restconf-client-server model does not enable the
configuration of the "http-version" to be used.=C2=A0 I cringe to= say this,
but we might consider introducing an "https-client-server" draft = that
the "restconf-client-server" draft could be refactored to depend = on.
If this were done, then said "https-notif" draft could use the &q= uot;https-
client-grouping", and thus be consistent with the pattern we're establishing here.

To address the interoperability issue, it seems we either: 1) define
a super-simple mandatory-to-implement "notif" layer (I would reco= mmend
https-client for this) or 2) a good mandatory-to-implement "notif"= ;
layer (e.g., binary over DTLS and per line-card, per the udp-pub-channel draft), or 3) do nothing, leaving it to the market to decide, similar
to how RFC 8040 doesn't require a specific encoding (XML, JSON, etc.)


Kent=C2=A0 // contributor



_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

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Watsen CC: "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUHhHrAK87NKpG2E+Ouz7jjC6MRKSUNnVAgACYGQCAAgVBgIAAKY0AgAAMN4D//8pd8A== Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 19:00:19 +0000 Message-ID: <00995d3cf9fe45248d36e955301d0443@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <5366188A-111C-49ED-95AF-82A5171750CC@cisco.com> <85CBFD6B-CBEE-47C5-83ED-FD37007B78A3@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.219.225] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_00995d3cf9fe45248d36e955301d0443XCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.151, xch-rtp-011.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: 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bi9saXN0aW5mby9uZXRjb25mPC9hPjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPC9k aXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0K PC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_00995d3cf9fe45248d36e955301d0443XCHRTP013ciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Jul 19 13:53:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8202B130F16 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:53:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PtSSQJw63_SD for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (trail.lhotka.name [77.48.224.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB34130E30 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix, from userid 109) id 01D621820CC0; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:59:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dhcp-9627.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.150.39]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DFE711820053; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:58:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Cc: Netconf In-Reply-To: <20180719084156.llzgfj465hov4s47@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <87efg0nxa1.fsf@nic.cz> <20180719084156.llzgfj465hov4s47@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:53:01 -0400 Message-ID: <87o9f39ccy.fsf@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] {+restconf}/data X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:53:10 -0000 Juergen Schoenwaelder writes: > Lada, > > there is no point in changing the definition of {+restconf}/data since > this would lead to interoperability issues and hence {+restconf}/data > remains what it is. Clients can have interoperability issues already now, e.g. if the server upgrades to the new "ietf-interfaces" module: - it can receive loads of unexpected state data and statistics - no data may be available under "interfaces-state" (because of the ambiguity of the deprecated status). > > Yes, the new datastore names are longer but we did not want to require > globally unique datastore names (which would require some form of a > registry and that everybody uses the registry). Most of the text in RFC 8040 deals with the {+restconf}/data resource and its descendants, so effectively deprecating it in another document seems pretty confusing. I think that {+restconf}/data should remain the main entry point to configuration for an average client. Lada > > /js > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 03:45:10PM -0400, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >> Hi, >> >> it seems that using RESTCONF with the updated NMDA-compatible modules >> leads to the (IMO undesirable) result where under the "legacy" root >> "{+restconf}/data" state data are mixed with configuration. For example, >> with ietf-interfaces@2018-02-20 >> >> GET {+restconf}/data/ietf-interfaces:interfaces >> >> yields configuration, state data and statistics, whereas with the old >> revision ietf-interfaces@2014-05-08 GET on the same URL yields only >> configuration. I think this defeats the purpose of NMDA. >> >> On the other hand, the short datastore-less URLs are too handy to be >> simply deprecated. I would therefore propose that {+restconf}/data be >> essentially an alias for the configuration datastore that the user can >> directly edit. This means: >> >> - with writable it will be an alias to running >> >> - if the implementation uses , it will be an alias to >> . >> >> Lada >> >> -- >> Ladislav Lhotka >> Head, CZ.NIC Labs >> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Netconf mailing list >> Netconf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Thu Jul 19 13:58:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2085130F55 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:58:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zjrx_eupU2W0 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com (mail-lf1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2F42130E08 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id a134-v6so319128lfe.6 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:58:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rrt3O7kGuCFprbeGEZZjVJ8m7h7FnlbtWEPBPLLxXnA=; b=QluKQFEYafSTe3V6rGYZaj3RKHldcNt3bWSY49YjGSxbr8LwWxP1DNYDKHWsP7Dnfa T53OWlQnlVh+OJXcKODV8fnp8YliZ11bEOJIs5U24B463c1mF7VX4Ipy6l43qPXqYcCG 1cOCbHuB9e+tSgV/EtTpD39F5uCSBT+eNhykUepY8/0b/iWXvBMu9Lsv4MJX9FsS/2i8 AYH/D+NhTSSyNaFlTQh5Z8dy7TJfYYepAWHRIE+ooX0geze4YO0mQOiS2XkFasBzu374 apR+NzXyrMFHcyShlStB8oORkJTuOvH69f2OVwExvwezB3FYwUe4gHtxmdG05TjoViRy LWDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rrt3O7kGuCFprbeGEZZjVJ8m7h7FnlbtWEPBPLLxXnA=; b=Af/i1SKEWN0ONc9AXHus31lMP2pChEBHftbM9R44zZ4tC9LLY2e7QnmRzFMp/+leSh iaBwVENS4+qmspqF2Wb9IyC46Gj2i+exALHNx9DXLMlud1ZPjMbA4XSfzhn4g3lmXDBM JgnJTgCqHKJgas70bdLEPKQeh8rW7fmsKlWa/fwPYJjh8IM9tCZCi5qxjL1VJhzUjlDL i8YGQV8GwsggTDj0BxOM5a6zr2QcNsknlmzVNHMUYxUOo0C5SJ8B1S12wISGKGPPsrct GIWZA1kx4C73z3HCnod+X5fh1ao4eniht6DR3wfNIF2xoIcfEmrrqgsrEGbcbjLoNz6H CiZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGsChfIIH+r5eR3baCp8N4FfJEZ/9iFr5R62w4IYknLe9C/v8Tn Fv7vM7Lq5vQ5jezfzSCJEXs3Br3TP16FGGyjjSxOPg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdjHrLl4TROGf6K6riLG9bbfoWhigdVOOB/GmJrLZYZKihBUaMwgqsHP69d87BGoseWwDUZJJ0iEl82JOBvQxs= X-Received: by 2002:a19:9b50:: with SMTP id d77-v6mr7355057lfe.108.1532033918936; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:58:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:58:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87o9f39ccy.fsf@nic.cz> References: <87efg0nxa1.fsf@nic.cz> <20180719084156.llzgfj465hov4s47@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <87o9f39ccy.fsf@nic.cz> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:58:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ladislav Lhotka Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000085bd3b05716071ff" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] {+restconf}/data X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:58:45 -0000 --00000000000085bd3b05716071ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > Juergen Schoenwaelder writes: > > > Lada, > > > > there is no point in changing the definition of {+restconf}/data since > > this would lead to interoperability issues and hence {+restconf}/data > > remains what it is. > > Clients can have interoperability issues already now, e.g. if the server > upgrades to the new "ietf-interfaces" module: > > - it can receive loads of unexpected state data and statistics > > - no data may be available under "interfaces-state" (because of the > ambiguity of the deprecated status). > > > > > Yes, the new datastore names are longer but we did not want to require > > globally unique datastore names (which would require some form of a > > registry and that everybody uses the registry). > > Most of the text in RFC 8040 deals with the {+restconf}/data resource > and its descendants, so effectively deprecating it in another document > seems pretty confusing. I think that {+restconf}/data should remain the > main entry point to configuration for an average client. > > I agree with Juergen. You cannot change the usage of /restconf/data. Old clients will expect the old behavior and break if a new server did this. There is no reason to deprecate or change this URI. Pick a new URI for new functionality. This is much less confusing and it does not break old clients. > Lada > > Andy > > > > /js > > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 03:45:10PM -0400, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> it seems that using RESTCONF with the updated NMDA-compatible modules > >> leads to the (IMO undesirable) result where under the "legacy" root > >> "{+restconf}/data" state data are mixed with configuration. For example, > >> with ietf-interfaces@2018-02-20 > >> > >> GET {+restconf}/data/ietf-interfaces:interfaces > >> > >> yields configuration, state data and statistics, whereas with the old > >> revision ietf-interfaces@2014-05-08 GET on the same URL yields only > >> configuration. I think this defeats the purpose of NMDA. > >> > >> On the other hand, the short datastore-less URLs are too handy to be > >> simply deprecated. I would therefore propose that {+restconf}/data be > >> essentially an alias for the configuration datastore that the user can > >> directly edit. This means: > >> > >> - with writable it will be an alias to running > >> > >> - if the implementation uses , it will be an alias to > >> . > >> > >> Lada > >> > >> -- > >> Ladislav Lhotka > >> Head, CZ.NIC Labs > >> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Netconf mailing list > >> Netconf@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > -- > Ladislav Lhotka > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --00000000000085bd3b05716071ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Ladislav Lhotka <= lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs= -university.de> writes:

> Lada,
>
> there is no point in changing the definition of {+restconf}/data since=
> this would lead to interoperability issues and hence {+restconf}/data<= br> > remains what it is.

Clients can have interoperability issues already now, e.g. if the server upgrades to the new "ietf-interfaces" module:

- it can receive loads of unexpected state data and statistics

- no data may be available under "interfaces-state" (because of t= he
=C2=A0 ambiguity of the deprecated status).

>
> Yes, the new datastore names are longer but we did not want to require=
> globally unique datastore names (which would require some form of a > registry and that everybody uses the registry).

Most of the text in RFC 8040 deals with the {+restconf}/data resource
and its descendants, so effectively deprecating it in another document
seems pretty confusing. I think that {+restconf}/data should remain the
main entry point to configuration for an average client.


I agree with Juergen.
You ca= nnot change the usage of /restconf/data.
Old clients will expect = the old behavior and break if a new server did this.

There is no reason to deprecate or change this URI.
Pick a new= URI for new functionality.
This is much less confusing and it do= es not break old clients.


=C2=A0
Lada


Andy
=C2=A0
>
> /js
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 03:45:10PM -0400, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> it seems that using RESTCONF with the updated NMDA-compatible modu= les
>> leads to the (IMO undesirable) result where under the "legacy= " root
>> "{+restconf}/data" state data are mixed with configurati= on. For example,
>> with ietf-interfaces@2018-02-20
>>
>> GET {+restconf}/data/ietf-interfaces:interfaces
>>
>> yields configuration, state data and statistics, whereas with the = old
>> revision ietf-interfaces@2014-05-08 GET on the same URL yields onl= y
>> configuration. I think this defeats the purpose of NMDA.
>>
>> On the other hand, the short datastore-less URLs are too handy to = be
>> simply deprecated. I would therefore propose that {+restconf}/data= be
>> essentially an alias for the configuration datastore that the user= can
>> directly edit. This means:
>>
>> - with writable <running> it will be an alias to running
>>
>> - if the implementation uses <candidate>, it will be an alia= s to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<candidate>.
>>
>> Lada
>>
>> --
>> Ladislav Lhotka
>> Head, CZ.NIC Labs
>> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/net= conf
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs U= niversity Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1= | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= ;https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--
Ladislav Lhotka
Head, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

--00000000000085bd3b05716071ff-- From nobody Thu Jul 19 14:29:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDC79130ECB for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:29:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nic.cz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nI9Akwuq-8hg for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [217.31.204.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEC1B130E3A for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from birdie (dhcp-9627.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.150.39]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8B34160129 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 23:29:24 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1532035764; bh=K71fsMphJSciwxxxf5NBVsKKgyfVnDkwTrGFBqqfOOc=; h=From:To:Date; b=FWeG0eKNYmyOObZP1pFDoWWu+g4Of8OBo7ZbutCW+SL5BCc9bUPlTvuxKdNRX7SS1 iE7vdmJzBCVVqP16iakXgHVCkI+xqtzHeXjZMeb/zQZ4htjdyKQrcdegtDaL11222y TSRCQbZLgt5JMPjlWEbbjeG7uhaxf5JJlf9lJNTc= Message-ID: <3a52d5243607493b4ee82be68669b970642acf07.camel@nic.cz> From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Mahesh Jethanandani Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 17:27:53 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <87efg0nxa1.fsf@nic.cz> <20180719084156.llzgfj465hov4s47@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <87o9f39ccy.fsf@nic.cz> Organization: CZ.NIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.28.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.2 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] {+restconf}/data X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:29:31 -0000 On Thu, 2018-07-19 at 13:58 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > Juergen Schoenwaelder writes: > > > > > Lada, > > > > > > there is no point in changing the definition of {+restconf}/data since > > > this would lead to interoperability issues and hence {+restconf}/data > > > remains what it is. > > > > Clients can have interoperability issues already now, e.g. if the server > > upgrades to the new "ietf-interfaces" module: > > > > - it can receive loads of unexpected state data and statistics > > > > - no data may be available under "interfaces-state" (because of the > > ambiguity of the deprecated status). > > > > > > > > Yes, the new datastore names are longer but we did not want to require > > > globally unique datastore names (which would require some form of a > > > registry and that everybody uses the registry). > > > > Most of the text in RFC 8040 deals with the {+restconf}/data resource > > and its descendants, so effectively deprecating it in another document > > seems pretty confusing. I think that {+restconf}/data should remain the > > main entry point to configuration for an average client. > > > > I agree with Juergen. > You cannot change the usage of /restconf/data. > Old clients will expect the old behavior and break if a new server did this. What is "the old behavior" and how would it change with my proposal? The old resources and their URIs continue to exist, clients can use the same methods as before, only the returned data may be different. As my example with "ietf- interfaces" demonstrates, this happens already when this module is upgraded to the NMDA-compatible revision. As a matter of fact, with my proposal the returned data would be exactly the same as with the old version of "ietf-interfaces" - only configuration. > > There is no reason to deprecate or change this URI. > Pick a new URI for new functionality. > This is much less confusing and it does not break old clients. But {+restconf}/data is essentially equivalent to output in NETCONF, and this is what we wanted to get rid of. Lada > > > > > Lada > > > > Andy > > > > > > > /js > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 03:45:10PM -0400, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > it seems that using RESTCONF with the updated NMDA-compatible modules > > > > leads to the (IMO undesirable) result where under the "legacy" root > > > > "{+restconf}/data" state data are mixed with configuration. For example, > > > > with ietf-interfaces@2018-02-20 > > > > > > > > GET {+restconf}/data/ietf-interfaces:interfaces > > > > > > > > yields configuration, state data and statistics, whereas with the old > > > > revision ietf-interfaces@2014-05-08 GET on the same URL yields only > > > > configuration. I think this defeats the purpose of NMDA. > > > > > > > > On the other hand, the short datastore-less URLs are too handy to be > > > > simply deprecated. I would therefore propose that {+restconf}/data be > > > > essentially an alias for the configuration datastore that the user can > > > > directly edit. This means: > > > > > > > > - with writable it will be an alias to running > > > > > > > > - if the implementation uses , it will be an alias to > > > > . > > > > > > > > Lada > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Ladislav Lhotka > > > > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > > > > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Netconf mailing list > > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > -- > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Thu Jul 19 15:34:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA3E130E42 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:33:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VNqK2kJQtA_w for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com (mail-lf1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B079130E66 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id v22-v6so455979lfe.8 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:33:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7ttTLGFS853caKaNmZAqCKeasfhPZgAhNF0JoihUqTE=; b=ENujEP3LfffgXmqLQe301PSucNU1BBTZy6TuB7IvudZ7vFcFcWXrwdf4fCbjkS1BmF sNFuZio1NDyXz9vXmg3OxQq2Ibblfbu1Iv2j7gLc+DiAcj9yBNTY+QIihjKCxHueKfzb eWkkE4JoJNwCX19T2ylM8Xoi+n/r1XMm08iT4Xstw2aPfIyWQIRlt4vTfX7Mmq0uJXCd M4z3w5Z8L8RW5SFJCHnguxWRWjn+VG+jyifYMJKe62gmEsSVmKsaPueI+WBY2KM2y1h8 Rc9Vx4L1O+nS7NXwr9Gn05uU2HpJS8gHbeL0I2ZTfNTMI+uRYtBZ+lyviHPaXIvtj4IU zKcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7ttTLGFS853caKaNmZAqCKeasfhPZgAhNF0JoihUqTE=; b=JPLfx7mLKkzRDPyYAbkQQAGcyDQey9XCIWSqHZxqrdQP2+Elx5f3QUCJK/PX2ZG1w6 CmuAFq0OpNHkLzQamiFP1XtZMgpwr7pC6du35Gr9aZBdgqDQU657Tw9sOUrmGeu0+nI+ L4iZqOBA94ZQRsY1YDJH1lRaidwXpxrT1tb8oUDqioyIFS/lI9WLZzj7W1qeMYaF7Llb pQffo8Z+b6sBx/OU3iXmHdhWxnZjR0GgzxqSQMiaAF983Ycmq8BPtp+YBy4/qOahLapM bbz9CXPQHv7TQG4zdaoy4CpEQvteS7GiuKgtOHmiquB+39a364WGKwhIYbuHAt1voFLf 3caQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGOjou11N28KbmNuzcCYsRttGAfBUUodnUCZez3EJHxdaL1ed5m pX6nhN/FC/Zo2OsHDsTPnOpDdBDvpZvTKT/Ia9rAIh4e X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpe66AI4kD4X4bUg7Ht+vF9/M/tOwDgpDcs7QEqQJ/fkRXt1RPD8SUjra8ebCnjLw6K1y2+rq3nKS6LN7b3gIeU= X-Received: by 2002:a19:b598:: with SMTP id g24-v6mr8090272lfk.129.1532039628029; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:33:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:33:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3a52d5243607493b4ee82be68669b970642acf07.camel@nic.cz> References: <87efg0nxa1.fsf@nic.cz> <20180719084156.llzgfj465hov4s47@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <87o9f39ccy.fsf@nic.cz> <3a52d5243607493b4ee82be68669b970642acf07.camel@nic.cz> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:33:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ladislav Lhotka Cc: Mahesh Jethanandani Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cf9782057161c574" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] {+restconf}/data X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:34:00 -0000 --000000000000cf9782057161c574 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I think people should use the new NMDA URIs if they want different behavior than RFC 8040. Andy On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > On Thu, 2018-07-19 at 13:58 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder writes: > > > > > > > Lada, > > > > > > > > there is no point in changing the definition of {+restconf}/data > since > > > > this would lead to interoperability issues and hence {+restconf}/data > > > > remains what it is. > > > > > > Clients can have interoperability issues already now, e.g. if the > server > > > upgrades to the new "ietf-interfaces" module: > > > > > > - it can receive loads of unexpected state data and statistics > > > > > > - no data may be available under "interfaces-state" (because of the > > > ambiguity of the deprecated status). > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the new datastore names are longer but we did not want to > require > > > > globally unique datastore names (which would require some form of a > > > > registry and that everybody uses the registry). > > > > > > Most of the text in RFC 8040 deals with the {+restconf}/data resource > > > and its descendants, so effectively deprecating it in another document > > > seems pretty confusing. I think that {+restconf}/data should remain the > > > main entry point to configuration for an average client. > > > > > > > I agree with Juergen. > > You cannot change the usage of /restconf/data. > > Old clients will expect the old behavior and break if a new server did > this. > > What is "the old behavior" and how would it change with my proposal? The > old > resources and their URIs continue to exist, clients can use the same > methods as > before, only the returned data may be different. As my example with "ietf- > interfaces" demonstrates, this happens already when this module is > upgraded to > the NMDA-compatible revision. > > As a matter of fact, with my proposal the returned data would be exactly > the > same as with the old version of "ietf-interfaces" - only configuration. > > > > > There is no reason to deprecate or change this URI. > > Pick a new URI for new functionality. > > This is much less confusing and it does not break old clients. > > But {+restconf}/data is essentially equivalent to output in NETCONF, > and > this is what we wanted to get rid of. > > Lada > > > > > > > > > > Lada > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > /js > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 03:45:10PM -0400, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > it seems that using RESTCONF with the updated NMDA-compatible > modules > > > > > leads to the (IMO undesirable) result where under the "legacy" root > > > > > "{+restconf}/data" state data are mixed with configuration. For > example, > > > > > with ietf-interfaces@2018-02-20 > > > > > > > > > > GET {+restconf}/data/ietf-interfaces:interfaces > > > > > > > > > > yields configuration, state data and statistics, whereas with the > old > > > > > revision ietf-interfaces@2014-05-08 GET on the same URL yields > only > > > > > configuration. I think this defeats the purpose of NMDA. > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, the short datastore-less URLs are too handy to > be > > > > > simply deprecated. I would therefore propose that {+restconf}/data > be > > > > > essentially an alias for the configuration datastore that the user > can > > > > > directly edit. This means: > > > > > > > > > > - with writable it will be an alias to running > > > > > > > > > > - if the implementation uses , it will be an alias to > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > Lada > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Ladislav Lhotka > > > > > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > > > > > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Netconf mailing list > > > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | > Germany > > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > -- > Ladislav Lhotka > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --000000000000cf9782057161c574 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I think people should use the new N= MDA URIs if they want different behavior than RFC 8040.

Andy


On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@n= ic.cz> wrote:
On Thu, 2018-= 07-19 at 13:58 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:<= br> > >
> > > Lada,
> > >
> > > there is no point in changing the definition of {+restconf}/= data since
> > > this would lead to interoperability issues and hence {+restc= onf}/data
> > > remains what it is.
> >
> > Clients can have interoperability issues already now, e.g. if the= server
> > upgrades to the new "ietf-interfaces" module:
> >
> > - it can receive loads of unexpected state data and statistics > >
> > - no data may be available under "interfaces-state" (be= cause of the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0ambiguity of the deprecated status).
> >
> > >
> > > Yes, the new datastore names are longer but we did not want = to require
> > > globally unique datastore names (which would require some fo= rm of a
> > > registry and that everybody uses the registry).
> >
> > Most of the text in RFC 8040 deals with the {+restconf}/data reso= urce
> > and its descendants, so effectively deprecating it in another doc= ument
> > seems pretty confusing. I think that {+restconf}/data should rema= in the
> > main entry point to configuration for an average client.
> >
>
> I agree with Juergen.
> You cannot change the usage of /restconf/data.
> Old clients will expect the old behavior and break if a new server did= this.

What is "the old behavior" and how would it change with my propos= al? The old
resources and their URIs continue to exist, clients can use the same method= s as
before, only the returned data may be different. As my example with "i= etf-
interfaces" demonstrates, this happens already when this module is upg= raded to
the NMDA-compatible revision.

As a matter of fact, with my proposal the returned data would be exactly th= e
same as with the old version of "ietf-interfaces" - only configur= ation.

>
> There is no reason to deprecate or change this URI.
> Pick a new URI for new functionality.
> This is much less confusing and it does not break old clients.

But {+restconf}/data is essentially equivalent to <get> output in NET= CONF, and
this is what we wanted to get rid of.

Lada

>
>
>=C2=A0
> > Lada
> >
>
> Andy
>=C2=A0
> > >
> > > /js
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 03:45:10PM -0400, Ladislav Lhotka wr= ote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > it seems that using RESTCONF with the updated NMDA-comp= atible modules
> > > > leads to the (IMO undesirable) result where under the &= quot;legacy" root
> > > > "{+restconf}/data" state data are mixed with = configuration. For example,
> > > > with ietf-interfaces@2018-02-20
> > > >
> > > > GET {+restconf}/data/ietf-interfaces:interfaces > > > >
> > > > yields configuration, state data and statistics, wherea= s with the old
> > > > revision ietf-interfaces@2014-05-08 GET on the same URL= yields only
> > > > configuration. I think this defeats the purpose of NMDA= .
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, the short datastore-less URLs are to= o handy to be
> > > > simply deprecated. I would therefore propose that {+res= tconf}/data be
> > > > essentially an alias for the configuration datastore th= at the user can
> > > > directly edit. This means:
> > > >
> > > > - with writable <running> it will be an alias to = running
> > > >
> > > > - if the implementation uses <candidate>, it will= be an alias to
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0<candidate>.
> > > >
> > > > Lada
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ladislav Lhotka
> > > > Head, CZ.NIC Labs
> > > > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Netconf mailing list
> > > > Netconf@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/netconf
> > >
> > > --
> > > Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cam= pus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > > Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
--
Ladislav Lhotka
Head, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

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bGVhZiByZXN0Y29uZi1lbmRwb2ludCB7DQo+PsKgIMKgIMKgIMKgIHR5cGUgbGVhZnJlZiB7DQo+ PsKgIMKgIMKgIMKgIMKgIHBhdGggIi9ybjpyZXN0Y29uZi1zZXJ2ZXIvcm46Y2FsbC1ob21lL3Ju Om5ldGNvbmYtY2xpZW50L3JuOm5hbWUiOw0KPj7CoCDCoCDCoCDCoCB9DQo+PsKgIMKgIMKgIH0N Cj4+wqAgwqAgfQ0KPj7CoCB9DQo+DQo+DQo+IFRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIHdpdGggaWRlbnRpdHlyZWYg bGVhZnMgaXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgY2xpZW50IGhhcyBubyBjbHVlIA0KPiB3aGF0IHRoZSBzZXJ2ZXIg d2lsbCBzdXBwb3J0LiBUaGUgcHJvYmxlbSBnZXRzIG11Y2ggd29yc2UgZm9yIHRoZQ0KPiBjbGll bnQgZGVhbGluZyB3aXRoIGEgbWFuZGF0b3J5IGVtcHR5IGNob2ljZS4NCg0KSG93IHNvPyAgSWYg dGhlIHNlcnZlciBpbXBsZW1lbnRzIHRoZSBub3RpZiBtb2R1bGUsIHRoZSBhdWdtZW50DQpzaG93 cyB1cCwgcmlnaHQ/DQoNCg0KPiBBbmR5DQoNCktlbnQgLy8gY29udHJpYnV0b3INCg0KDQoNCg0K DQo= From nobody Thu Jul 19 16:31:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B50F130E43 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:31:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D6CyqGRCwzVW for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C823130DFE for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id E16C8235E81C; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 01:31:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 01:31:28 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Ladislav Lhotka Cc: Mahesh Jethanandani Message-ID: <20180719233128.6nq3uosxyfadxnjw@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Ladislav Lhotka , Mahesh Jethanandani References: <87efg0nxa1.fsf@nic.cz> <20180719084156.llzgfj465hov4s47@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <87o9f39ccy.fsf@nic.cz> <3a52d5243607493b4ee82be68669b970642acf07.camel@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3a52d5243607493b4ee82be68669b970642acf07.camel@nic.cz> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] {+restconf}/data X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 23:31:34 -0000 On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 05:27:53PM -0400, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > What is "the old behavior" and how would it change with my proposal? > The old resources and their URIs continue to exist, clients can use > the same methods as before, only the returned data may be > different. As my example with "ietf-interfaces" demonstrates, this > happens already when this module is upgraded to the NMDA-compatible > revision. The ietf-interfaces module got updated and more nodes were added into the tree. This is a rather normal procedure. (There never was a requirement that config/state trees had to be split - this was just the best thing we could do originally for ietf-interfaces.) Clients only interested in config nodes can use the "content" query parameter with the value "config" (RFC 8040 section 4.8.1). If clients use the default "all", well then they get all. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 20 03:02:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA655127148 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 03:02:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id paFLuOImPf_D for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 03:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72138130DDF for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 03:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9EFE8235FDD2; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:02:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:02:29 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: netconf@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180720100229.7ndhp74ylb53tmgh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: netconf@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] configured subscriptions over netconf and restconf X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:02:34 -0000 Hi, thinking more about this, I wonder who is interested (in the sense I am implementing this) in configured subscriptions over NETCONF and RESTCONF (SSE - not some new HTTP/2 transport, which is not RESTCONF). It could be that NC and RC clients are just fine with doing dynamic subscriptions (since they can) and configured subscriptions essentially exist to use notification streaming protocols that themself have no way to dynamically subscribe. If this would be true, then defining a transport for configured subscriptions over plain NC and RC seems like a waste of effort. Then I would rather be specific that configured subscriptions are for non NC/RC transports and remove the text how to make configured subscriptions work with NC/RC. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 20 03:14:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D18130E64 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 03:14:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KLryj6LDYYAD for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 03:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCAE130DF6 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 03:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8E0FC235FE30; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:14:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:14:19 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Andy Bierman , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180720101419.7chri56rzgyidxmw@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Andy Bierman , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180718133200.u7fpsv3xanb2nosr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <6707abca9924442083ef165ce1345b7e@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6707abca9924442083ef165ce1345b7e@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:14:24 -0000 On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 09:41:00AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > That is what I was hoping would be accomplished with the text: > > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, port, and > security credentials are left up to implementers of this > specification. For implementation guidance and a YANG model for this > function, please look to > [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server]. I said this is to vague for me to understand. Repeating the pointer does not help me to understand. If this I-D has a clear solution, why not put it in place? > To cover this, there is the following text in Section 5 of draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications: > > publisher SHOULD place the receiver into the > "timeout" state after a predetermined number of either failed call > home attempts or NETCONF sessions remotely terminated by the > receiver. > > Until NETCONF transport with a receiver has been established, and a > "subscription-started" state change notification has been > successfully sent for a configured subscription, that subscription's > receiver MUST remain in either the "connecting" or the "timeout" > state. <-- call home --> C: S: S: <-- session terminated --> The server believes 'notification has been successfully sent'. The other alternative would be a client that throws away notification messages not expected: <-- call home --> C: S: S: // -> discarded S: // -> discarded S: // -> discarded [...] Both scenarioes are problematic. This is why I suggested that there needs to be some mechanism that tells the server that the client is willing to receive configured subscriptions before the server throws messages at the client. You will find differnet ideas in the mailing list archive. > > I do not buy the IoT argument. What is wrong with requiring that a > > NETCONF server must support at least the NETCONF transport and that a > > RESTCONF server must support at the RESTCONF transport? > > Ahh. I thought you meant that there should be a default transport for SN alone. SN in section 1.0 & the end of 5.3 points to transport documents for such guidance. > > Then looking at Section 1.0 in draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notification: > > This document provides a binding for events streamed over the NETCONF > protocol [RFC6241] as per > [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications]. In addition, as > [I-D.ietf-netconf-yang-push] is itself built upon > [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications], this document > enables a NETCONF client to request and receive updates from a YANG > datastore located on a NETCONF server. > Yes. But this text does not say that 'if a NETCONF server supports configured subscriptions, then it MUST implement the notification transport as defined in section 5.2 (or whatever the section will be). This way, a NETCONF client using configured subscriptions would know one transport that actually works (if the details are fully worked out). Perhaps this is not what people really want, so I will start another thread to figure this out. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 20 05:39:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87CFB130E1A for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 05:39:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZMfUOx2Z2Un7 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 05:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B1B12426A for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 05:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0BA752360344; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:39:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:39:29 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Kent Watsen Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180720123929.uuvkqpqqktxccuvr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Kent Watsen , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <20180720100229.7ndhp74ylb53tmgh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] configured subscriptions over netconf and restconf X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:39:33 -0000 On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:21:47PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > I believe the draft correctly explains the need for a client of a configured subscription to issue dynamic subscriptions. > Not sure what you mean with this. Which section do you refer to? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 20 06:03:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B166130EB4 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:03:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fq5LJqK_CfL5 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B44B130E01 for ; 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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:17:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sznWM8x6lzFp for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B7113115C for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6B12223604F1; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:17:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:17:14 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Kent Watsen Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180720131714.eiv6kgivbswb4xnl@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Kent Watsen , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <20180720100229.7ndhp74ylb53tmgh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180720123929.uuvkqpqqktxccuvr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <90BBBBD1-671D-43AC-BE9F-936E90AE530A@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <90BBBBD1-671D-43AC-BE9F-936E90AE530A@juniper.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180622 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] configured subscriptions over netconf and restconf X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:17:25 -0000 On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 01:02:55PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > >> I believe the draft correctly explains the need for a client of a configured subscription to issue dynamic subscriptions. > >> > > > > Not sure what you mean with this. Which section do you refer to? > > I’m not looking at it right now, but I know that there’s a statement in the Security Considerations section. > draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-10.txt: 10. Security Considerations Notification messages (including state change notifications) are never sent before the NETCONF capabilities exchange has completed. If a malicious or buggy NETCONF subscriber sends a number of establish-subscription requests, then these subscriptions accumulate and may use up system resources. In such a situation, subscriptions MAY be terminated by terminating the underlying NETCONF session. The publisher MAY also suspend or terminate a subset of the active subscriptions on that NETCONF session. This draft has a YANG module which consists of a single identity. As a result additional security concerns beyond those of the imported modules are not introduced. The first paragraph is interesting but it is not clear why it is in the security considerations. The second paragraph talks about a thread but leaves out what happens to configured subscriptions created by a malicious client. The last one says that the identity defined in the YANG module has no security issues. The completeness of the security considerations can perhaps be debated but anyway I see nothing concerning "the need for a client of a configured subscription to issue dynamic subscriptions". Let me try draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt. I find: With configured subscriptions, one or more publishers could be used to overwhelm a receiver. Notification messages SHOULD NOT be sent to any receiver which does not support this specification. Receivers that do not want notification messages need only terminate or refuse any transport sessions from the publisher. So a notification receiver must implement draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt? How does the server determine that the client did implement draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt? When a receiver of a configured subscription gets a new "subscription-started" message for a known subscription where it is already consuming events, the receiver SHOULD retrieve any event records generated since the last event record was received. This can be accomplish by establishing a separate dynamic replay subscription with the same filtering criteria with the publisher", assuming the publisher supports the "replay" feature. This is perhaps what you mean. But I wonder how this works for transports that can't establish dynamic subscriptions. Note that this is a SHOULD. Hence any transport SHOULD be able to create dynamic subscriptions. The more I look at these documents, the more questions pop up... /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 20 06:21:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A3F1310E2 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:21:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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"Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUHhHrAK87NKpG2E+Ouz7jjC6MRKSUNnVAgAEH3gCAAPvOkIAB8aCA///Xl8A= Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:47:48 +0000 Message-ID: <3b194cc7276b4e888c4e8b808d1c356a@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180718133200.u7fpsv3xanb2nosr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <6707abca9924442083ef165ce1345b7e@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180720101419.7chri56rzgyidxmw@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180720101419.7chri56rzgyidxmw@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.153, xch-rtp-013.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:47:54 -0000 Hi Juergen, > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 20, 2018 6:14 AM >=20 > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 09:41:00AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: >=20 > > That is what I was hoping would be accomplished with the text: > > > > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, port, an= d > > security credentials are left up to implementers of this > > specification. For implementation guidance and a YANG model for thi= s > > function, please look to > > [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server]. >=20 > I said this is to vague for me to understand. Repeating the pointer does = not > help me to understand. If this I-D has a clear solution, why not put it i= n > place? The recommended solution is for vendors to augment in their own leafrefs in= to existing vendor specific call home configurations. Alternatively, solu= tions can be integrated within non-YANG based configuration structures. Th= is is how our configured subscription implementation works. =20 To clarify the recommended solution, I have updated the reference above to: The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, port, and secur= ity credentials are left up to implementers of this specification. For imp= lementation guidance on how a leafref might constructed to accomplish this = function, consider the following augmentation which would need to be made i= f the necessary connection parameters are maintained with ietf-netconf-clie= nt.yang as specified by [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server]. import ietf-netconf-client { prefix ncc; } import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } import ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications { prefix nsn; } augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receiver" { when 'derived-from(../../../transport, "nsn:netconf")'; =20 leaf netconf-endpoint { type leafref { path "/ncc:netconf-client/ncc:initiate/ncc:netconf-server/ncc:endpo= ints/ncc:endpoint/ncc:name"; } description "Points to a remote NETCONF client intended to support a particular= configured subscription."; } } =20 > > To cover this, there is the following text in Section 5 of draft-ietf-n= etconf- > netconf-event-notifications: > > > > publisher SHOULD place the receiver into the > > "timeout" state after a predetermined number of either failed call > > home attempts or NETCONF sessions remotely terminated by the > > receiver. > > > > Until NETCONF transport with a receiver has been established, and a > > "subscription-started" state change notification has been > > successfully sent for a configured subscription, that subscription's > > receiver MUST remain in either the "connecting" or the "timeout" > > state. >=20 > <-- call home --> > C: > S: > S: > <-- session terminated --> >=20 > The server believes 'notification has been successfully sent'. The other > alternative would be a client that throws away notification messages not > expected: >=20 > <-- call home --> > C: > S: > S: // -> discarded > S: // -> discarded > S: // -> discarded > [...] >=20 > Both scenarioes are problematic.=20 Agree that there are these two scenarios. =20 The first scenario isn't elegant, but I don't see it as problematic. Per S= N, transport loss places all receivers back into their connecting state. = And the NETCONF-Notif text quoted above shows that multiple session termina= tions places the subscription into "timeout" so that something can figure o= ut what is wrong. The second scenario requires that NETCONF Call home is successfully configu= red with the right credentials on both sides of the connection, and that th= e receiver's NETCONF client implementation is unable to terminate a session= receiving unwanted notification traffic. This is a concern, but an implem= enter at least has some protections by controlling the call home connectivi= ty parameters tied to a specific receiver. (See continue reasoning below) > This is why I suggested that there needs to > be some mechanism that tells the server that the client is willing to rec= eive > configured subscriptions before the server throws messages > at the client. You will find differnet ideas in the mailing list archive. In talking about this issue in the past, suggestions were made that the NET= CONF client could advertise its capabilities for supporting configured subs= criptions as part of the hello exchange. And that can be a partial(*) solu= tion to the problem. However there was pushback to this based on NETCONF c= lient to server implementations not typically exchanging and interpreting t= he results of NETCONF client asserted capabilities. =20 (*) the reason it is partial is that even if the client advertises support = for NETCONF configured subscriptions, there is still the possibility that s= omething goes wrong with the receiver's receiving process with the second s= cenario above. In which case you still need to have a way to terminate the= incoming notification stream by pulling down the NETCONF session. Still, = there are obviously benefits of client capability signaling as an extra lay= er of misconfiguration protections included. Looking at what is in the v10 draft, there are some protections for both yo= ur scenarios above. But certainly it is not robust. And certainly having= the client advertise configured receiver support would be nice, but this w= ould require more development. As based on the amount of development, we= used the design philosophy of "it is better to start with an 80% solution = than a 120% solution :-)." =20 I agree that the current protection could have an improved description. So= I have placed the following text into the NETCONF-Notif security considera= tions section: " For a configured subscription, if NETCONF call home has been configured w= ith the working credentials, yet that the receiver's NETCONF client impleme= ntation is both unable to process inbound notifications and unable to termi= nate a session receiving unwanted traffic, then the receiver may receive un= wanted event records. To minimize this risk, a publisher implementation sh= ould use dedicated call home connectivity port numbers and credentials spec= ific to configured subscriptions. This will minimize the chance that an un= planned NETCONF receiver will receive configured subscription notifications= unexpectedly." =20 > > > I do not buy the IoT argument. What is wrong with requiring that a > > > NETCONF server must support at least the NETCONF transport and that > > > a RESTCONF server must support at the RESTCONF transport? > > > > Ahh. I thought you meant that there should be a default transport for = SN > alone. SN in section 1.0 & the end of 5.3 points to transport document= s > for such guidance. > > > > Then looking at Section 1.0 in draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event- > notification: > > > > This document provides a binding for events streamed over the > NETCONF > > protocol [RFC6241] as per > > [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications]. In addition, as > > [I-D.ietf-netconf-yang-push] is itself built upon > > [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications], this document > > enables a NETCONF client to request and receive updates from a YANG > > datastore located on a NETCONF server. > > >=20 > Yes. But this text does not say that 'if a NETCONF server supports > configured subscriptions, then it MUST implement the notification > transport as defined in section 5.2 (or whatever the section will be). > This way, a NETCONF client using configured subscriptions would know one > transport that actually works (if the details are fully worked out).=20 Added the text to the top of configured subscriptions section: "To allow the configuration of NETCONF for configured subscription transpor= t, a publisher MUST support the YANG module defined in Section 8. Advertis= ement of this module will indicate support the "netconf" transport identity= , and therefore the ability to use NETCONF as the selected transport.". > Perhaps > this is not what people really want, so I will start another thread to fi= gure > this out. See the thread. Wil reply to it. Eric > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 20 12:06:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E677131149 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:05:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5NaGTJHYnYem for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1547C13110E for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:05:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2300; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532113552; x=1533323152; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=arWnJ+3Bd+b+3uhT8wWPvZMtpXebzotrulJp7nZwk00=; b=g0zTGUX1r6dtBd1Go6ibYQx9Yq5bJjIDX4RsjZ1Pi4zR4UYgxZidNlaW mVWuklaXn27i00JeyKw1vOxY0l4eD/fGfPRR3o2vZyGsvr4Rwno4MQAap 4uci2uTc0dmdyzWgdF5NHaiXDk7I95yRrgp3p1JI7AcLlRPNZM3SiM3gY 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CmAACNMVJb/4MNJK1ZAxkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGDTWN/KAqLeIwyggyVPIF6CxgLhANGAoMMITQYAQIBAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQJtHAyFNgEBAQEDAQE4NBcCAgIBCA4CAQQBAQ0SEBsMCx0IAgQBEgiDGYF?= =?us-ascii?q?/D60WilAFBYh9gVc/g3QugxkBAYIBJoUPAplsCQKPJo16kXoCERSBJB04gVJ?= =?us-ascii?q?wFTuCaYY0hGGFPm+MCIEbAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,380,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="426792091" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Jul 2018 19:05:51 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (xch-rtp-012.cisco.com [64.101.220.152]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6KJ5ojW021920 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 19:05:51 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (64.101.220.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:05:50 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:05:50 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] configured subscriptions over netconf and restconf Thread-Index: AQHUIBDRFxKMAIeyfUGDXpoj+uZquaSYdTvQ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 19:05:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20180720100229.7ndhp74ylb53tmgh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180720100229.7ndhp74ylb53tmgh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.152, xch-rtp-012.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] configured subscriptions over netconf and restconf X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 19:06:00 -0000 Some thoughts on the business need: - Configured subscriptions over RESTCONF is not something of interest to me= . - I have not seen many requests for configured subscriptions over NETCONF. = Like Kent, we are prepared to implement these if given a business case. - What we do have in production is multiple variants of configured subscrip= tions over proprietary transport.=20 - On past threads, Henk has stated he needs configured subscriptions standa= rdized now for non-NC/RC transports. (So progressing configured in SN make= s sense.) So I completely agree with your premise below. In fact, this was option A2= during Monday's WG meeting. To support this, we have already scoped out t= he document changes which would be needed to correspondingly reduce the sco= pe of NETCONF-Notif to just dynamic subscriptions. Eric > -----Original Message----- > From: Netconf On Behalf Of Juergen > Schoenwaelder > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 6:02 AM > To: netconf@ietf.org > Subject: [Netconf] configured subscriptions over netconf and restconf >=20 > Hi, >=20 > thinking more about this, I wonder who is interested (in the sense I am > implementing this) in configured subscriptions over NETCONF and > RESTCONF (SSE - not some new HTTP/2 transport, which is not RESTCONF). >=20 > It could be that NC and RC clients are just fine with doing dynamic > subscriptions (since they can) and configured subscriptions essentially e= xist > to use notification streaming protocols that themself have no way to > dynamically subscribe. If this would be true, then defining a transport f= or > configured subscriptions over plain NC and RC seems like a waste of effor= t. > Then I would rather be specific that configured subscriptions are for non > NC/RC transports and remove the text how to make configured > subscriptions work with NC/RC. >=20 > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf From nobody Mon Jul 23 07:14:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007C0130DE0 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 07:14:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ej40IHNzlIcP for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 07:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54067127148 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 07:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id A22C8237AC8A; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:14:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:14:16 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Andy Bierman , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180723141416.mdzwa53nganbadbu@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Andy Bierman , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180718133200.u7fpsv3xanb2nosr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <6707abca9924442083ef165ce1345b7e@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180720101419.7chri56rzgyidxmw@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <3b194cc7276b4e888c4e8b808d1c356a@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3b194cc7276b4e888c4e8b808d1c356a@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:14:22 -0000 On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 06:47:48PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > Hi Juergen, > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 20, 2018 6:14 AM > > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 09:41:00AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > > That is what I was hoping would be accomplished with the text: > > > > > > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, port, and > > > security credentials are left up to implementers of this > > > specification. For implementation guidance and a YANG model for this > > > function, please look to > > > [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server]. > > > > I said this is to vague for me to understand. Repeating the pointer does not > > help me to understand. If this I-D has a clear solution, why not put it in > > place? > > The recommended solution is for vendors to augment in their own leafrefs into existing vendor specific call home configurations. Alternatively, solutions can be integrated within non-YANG based configuration structures. This is how our configured subscription implementation works. > > To clarify the recommended solution, I have updated the reference above to: > > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, port, and security credentials are left up to implementers of this specification. For implementation guidance on how a leafref might constructed to accomplish this function, consider the following augmentation which would need to be made if the necessary connection parameters are maintained with ietf-netconf-client.yang as specified by [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server]. > > import ietf-netconf-client { prefix ncc; } > import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } > import ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications { prefix nsn; } > > augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receiver" { > when 'derived-from(../../../transport, "nsn:netconf")'; > leaf netconf-endpoint { > type leafref { > path "/ncc:netconf-client/ncc:initiate/ncc:netconf-server/ncc:endpoints/ncc:endpoint/ncc:name"; > } > description > "Points to a remote NETCONF client intended to support a particular configured subscription."; > } > } So why do we create a _standard_ that says take the other standard and then roll your own non-standard module to make them work together? > > > To cover this, there is the following text in Section 5 of draft-ietf-netconf- > > netconf-event-notifications: > > > > > > publisher SHOULD place the receiver into the > > > "timeout" state after a predetermined number of either failed call > > > home attempts or NETCONF sessions remotely terminated by the > > > receiver. > > > > > > Until NETCONF transport with a receiver has been established, and a > > > "subscription-started" state change notification has been > > > successfully sent for a configured subscription, that subscription's > > > receiver MUST remain in either the "connecting" or the "timeout" > > > state. > > > > <-- call home --> > > C: > > S: > > S: > > <-- session terminated --> > > > > The server believes 'notification has been successfully sent'. The other > > alternative would be a client that throws away notification messages not > > expected: > > > > <-- call home --> > > C: > > S: > > S: // -> discarded > > S: // -> discarded > > S: // -> discarded > > [...] > > > > Both scenarioes are problematic. > > Agree that there are these two scenarios. > > The first scenario isn't elegant, but I don't see it as problematic. Per SN, transport loss places all receivers back into their connecting state. And the NETCONF-Notif text quoted above shows that multiple session terminations places the subscription into "timeout" so that something can figure out what is wrong. > > The second scenario requires that NETCONF Call home is successfully configured with the right credentials on both sides of the connection, and that the receiver's NETCONF client implementation is unable to terminate a session receiving unwanted notification traffic. This is a concern, but an implementer at least has some protections by controlling the call home connectivity parameters tied to a specific receiver. (See continue reasoning below) There is nothing in NETCONF that requires a client to terminate a session if the client receives an unexpected message. The control of call home parameters is no answer (first this is out of hands for the implementor and second the problem is likely a misconfiguration in the first place that leads to something not useful). I do not think your answers provide a solution - I am not interested in justifications. > > This is why I suggested that there needs to > > be some mechanism that tells the server that the client is willing to receive > > configured subscriptions before the server throws messages > > at the client. You will find differnet ideas in the mailing list archive. > > In talking about this issue in the past, suggestions were made that the NETCONF client could advertise its capabilities for supporting configured subscriptions as part of the hello exchange. And that can be a partial(*) solution to the problem. However there was pushback to this based on NETCONF client to server implementations not typically exchanging and interpreting the results of NETCONF client asserted capabilities. > > (*) the reason it is partial is that even if the client advertises support for NETCONF configured subscriptions, there is still the possibility that something goes wrong with the receiver's receiving process with the second scenario above. In which case you still need to have a way to terminate the incoming notification stream by pulling down the NETCONF session. Still, there are obviously benefits of client capability signaling as an extra layer of misconfiguration protections included. Simply pushing data to a receiver before checking that the receiver is willing and able to consume the data is in my view not good protocol design. There are cases where this is unavoidable but here we do have a client and server talking to each other that can do better. > Looking at what is in the v10 draft, there are some protections for both your scenarios above. But certainly it is not robust. And certainly having the client advertise configured receiver support would be nice, but this would require more development. As based on the amount of development, we used the design philosophy of "it is better to start with an 80% solution than a 120% solution :-)." There was also another proposal, namely to have the client request the start of notifications (like you would do with RC and SSE). I do not buy the 80% solution argument for an excuse of poor protocol design. > I agree that the current protection could have an improved description. So I have placed the following text into the NETCONF-Notif security considerations section: > > " For a configured subscription, if NETCONF call home has been configured with the working credentials, yet that the receiver's NETCONF client implementation is both unable to process inbound notifications and unable to terminate a session receiving unwanted traffic, then the receiver may receive unwanted event records. To minimize this risk, a publisher implementation should use dedicated call home connectivity port numbers and credentials specific to configured subscriptions. This will minimize the chance that an unplanned NETCONF receiver will receive configured subscription notifications unexpectedly." Well, I would rather fix the issue than pushing the problem ultimately to operators. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 24 16:56:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C3F1131236 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 16:56:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id seHhSQfa4xeX for ; 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d="scan'208";a="148066418" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Jul 2018 23:56:02 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6ONu17N012039 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 24 Jul 2018 23:56:01 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:56:01 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:56:01 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Andy Bierman , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YangPush now Thread-Index: AQHUHhHrAK87NKpG2E+Ouz7jjC6MRKSUNnVAgAEH3gCAAPvOkIAB8aCA///Xl8CABSJyAIABYhtw Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 23:56:00 +0000 Message-ID: <406f2a12fdd745c18e0f11dd9fbb26eb@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180718133200.u7fpsv3xanb2nosr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <6707abca9924442083ef165ce1345b7e@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180720101419.7chri56rzgyidxmw@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <3b194cc7276b4e888c4e8b808d1c356a@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180723141416.mdzwa53nganbadbu@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180723141416.mdzwa53nganbadbu@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.154, xch-rtp-014.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 23:56:07 -0000 Hi Juergen, > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 23, 2018 10:14 AM >=20 > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 06:47:48PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > Hi Juergen, > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 20, 2018 6:14 AM > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 09:41:00AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > > > > That is what I was hoping would be accomplished with the text: > > > > > > > > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, port= , and > > > > security credentials are left up to implementers of this > > > > specification. For implementation guidance and a YANG model for > this > > > > function, please look to > > > > [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server]. > > > > > > I said this is to vague for me to understand. Repeating the pointer > > > does not help me to understand. If this I-D has a clear solution, > > > why not put it in place? > > > > The recommended solution is for vendors to augment in their own > leafrefs into existing vendor specific call home configurations. > Alternatively, solutions can be integrated within non-YANG based > configuration structures. This is how our configured subscription > implementation works. > > > > To clarify the recommended solution, I have updated the reference above > to: > > > > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, port, and > security credentials are left up to implementers of this specification. = For > implementation guidance on how a leafref might constructed to accomplish > this function, consider the following augmentation which would need to be > made if the necessary connection parameters are maintained with ietf- > netconf-client.yang as specified by [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-clien= t- > server]. > > > > import ietf-netconf-client { prefix ncc; } > > import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } > > import ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications { prefix nsn; } > > > > augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receiver" = { > > when 'derived-from(../../../transport, "nsn:netconf")'; > > leaf netconf-endpoint { > > type leafref { > > path "/ncc:netconf-client/ncc:initiate/ncc:netconf- > server/ncc:endpoints/ncc:endpoint/ncc:name"; > > } > > description > > "Points to a remote NETCONF client intended to support a partic= ular > configured subscription."; > > } > > } >=20 > So why do we create a _standard_ that says take the other standard and > then roll your own non-standard module to make them work together? My reading of your request was to make the current draft text less vague. = Hopefully providing an example augmentation based on a referenced standard= -in-progress removes this ambiguity. =20 I would hope that when the other standard is ready, it doesn't take somethi= ng non-standard to bind them. There are earlier threads on how this might = be done. > > > > To cover this, there is the following text in Section 5 of > > > > draft-ietf-netconf- > > > netconf-event-notifications: > > > > > > > > publisher SHOULD place the receiver into the > > > > "timeout" state after a predetermined number of either failed ca= ll > > > > home attempts or NETCONF sessions remotely terminated by the > > > > receiver. > > > > > > > > Until NETCONF transport with a receiver has been established, an= d a > > > > "subscription-started" state change notification has been > > > > successfully sent for a configured subscription, that subscripti= on's > > > > receiver MUST remain in either the "connecting" or the "timeout" > > > > state. > > > > > > <-- call home --> > > > C: > > > S: > > > S: > > > <-- session terminated --> > > > > > > The server believes 'notification has been successfully sent'. The > > > other alternative would be a client that throws away notification > > > messages not > > > expected: > > > > > > <-- call home --> > > > C: > > > S: > > > S: // -> discarded > > > S: // -> discarded > > > S: // -> discarded > > > [...] > > > > > > Both scenarioes are problematic. > > > > Agree that there are these two scenarios. > > > > The first scenario isn't elegant, but I don't see it as problematic. P= er SN, > transport loss places all receivers back into their connecting state. A= nd the > NETCONF-Notif text quoted above shows that multiple session terminations > places the subscription into "timeout" so that something can figure out > what is wrong. > > > > The second scenario requires that NETCONF Call home is successfully > configured with the right credentials on both sides of the connection, an= d > that the receiver's NETCONF client implementation is unable to terminate = a > session receiving unwanted notification traffic. This is a concern, but = an > implementer at least has some protections by controlling the call home > connectivity parameters tied to a specific receiver. (See continue reas= oning > below) >=20 > There is nothing in NETCONF that requires a client to terminate a session= if > the client receives an unexpected message. The control of call home > parameters is no answer (first this is out of hands for the implementor a= nd > second the problem is likely a misconfiguration in the first place that l= eads > to something not useful). I do not think your answers provide a solution = - I > am not interested in justifications. A solution based on the correct call home parameter configuration does work= . But other than that, I agree with you: the current NETCONF configured su= bscription solution does take some valid error conditions out of the hands = of implementers, and places them in the hands of operators. =20 The biggest question I see is whether implementers want to do the leg-work = needed to building out the client capability advertisement capability to pr= otect against these failure scenarios. It would be great if NETCONF imple= menters signaled they are ready to pick this up. =20 > > > This is why I suggested that there needs to be some mechanism that > > > tells the server that the client is willing to receive configured > > > subscriptions before the server throws messages at > > > the client. You will find differnet ideas in the mailing list archive= . > > > > In talking about this issue in the past, suggestions were made that the > NETCONF client could advertise its capabilities for supporting configured > subscriptions as part of the hello exchange. And that can be a partial(*= ) > solution to the problem. However there was pushback to this based on > NETCONF client to server implementations not typically exchanging and > interpreting the results of NETCONF client asserted capabilities. > > > > (*) the reason it is partial is that even if the client advertises supp= ort for > NETCONF configured subscriptions, there is still the possibility that > something goes wrong with the receiver's receiving process with the secon= d > scenario above. In which case you still need to have a way to terminate = the > incoming notification stream by pulling down the NETCONF session. Still, > there are obviously benefits of client capability signaling as an extra l= ayer of > misconfiguration protections included. >=20 > Simply pushing data to a receiver before checking that the receiver is wi= lling > and able to consume the data is in my view not good protocol design. Ther= e > are cases where this is unavoidable but here we do have a client and serv= er > talking to each other that can do better. >=20 > > Looking at what is in the v10 draft, there are some protections for bot= h > your scenarios above. But certainly it is not robust. And certainly ha= ving > the client advertise configured receiver support would be nice, but this > would require more development. As based on the amount of > development, we used the design philosophy of "it is better to start wit= h > an 80% solution than a 120% solution :-)." >=20 > There was also another proposal, namely to have the client request the > start of notifications (like you would do with RC and SSE). I do not buy = the > 80% solution argument for an excuse of poor protocol design. The other proposal is absolutely a valid way to do this. And as Andy and o= thers have pointed out, the current dynamic RPC ca= n be kicked off by such a process. =20 However the call flow has more error conditions. As a result, three years= ago during scoping of the current suite of IETF subscription drafts, this = proposal was determined to be out-of-scope. This decision was not necessar= ily a bad choice as I have seen proprietary non-NETCONF configured subscrip= tion deployments thrive without a publisher requesting that a client invoke= the . As a result of the decision several years ago, no one has proposed an IETF = standards based call flow to invoke a client based = . It would be excellent if someone wanted to propose a draft for this. =20 =20 > > I agree that the current protection could have an improved description. > So I have placed the following text into the NETCONF-Notif security > considerations section: > > > > " For a configured subscription, if NETCONF call home has been configur= ed > with the working credentials, yet that the receiver's NETCONF client > implementation is both unable to process inbound notifications and unable > to terminate a session receiving unwanted traffic, then the receiver may > receive unwanted event records. To minimize this risk, a publisher > implementation should use dedicated call home connectivity port numbers > and credentials specific to configured subscriptions. This will minimize= the > chance that an unplanned NETCONF receiver will receive configured > subscription notifications unexpectedly." >=20 > Well, I would rather fix the issue than pushing the problem ultimately to > operators. Your position is a valid one for sure. I have not yet heard of operator w= anting to attempt these more robust configuration protection mechanisms yet= . And as noted above, this is not a key use case for the deployments I am = seeing yet. Eric > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Jul 25 20:21:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0816130F7E for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:21:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KVQvQYUFfxhB for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com (mail-lf1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2ECC130F46 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id g6-v6so168384lfb.11 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:21:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hxtALU4zN5dJiExft1spNr/2GagLfzkuVHm/1QmPq7w=; b=pwawEAmWJvsqZf/aYbSXlDWejc0q97hYJx4mXS8wRmRaz5pJaSR2umwdUo9NM6w6qi fRXmzo1dvLu4WkHW8a6tR2gBaNZbBi5elGg4M+nJSB1Q6JrinCXYS8Qgm42giUZxzJP2 KneIxj6Kf7w2eGChRbPz2o4bi12X08kBJUtmtIaBafq2Wv+MBIDn1VGfQ90ma3AMUt+J TWfo6WtCfO2c/M5McaQ3476PuNg6OhBbUKO68LAYwd8akKNQDO8nxr74wXllwN8b613u SbhNdKKgcQ+Qb71Og7eYgJ/Raks03ZEU6+w59jPttMvVwhoYccB55Ld/ZjHMM2vSgypF +2+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hxtALU4zN5dJiExft1spNr/2GagLfzkuVHm/1QmPq7w=; b=bDlsy7NUQpbE5KQ/NIpyliSy5od78LC8gYh2P2VBPpPTYcC0P5CViibh+4EDpf41eA bSOddrC8rDc3TMOAnsO27xSb98vB1WzuoOi8TWcaMHf+Q1lrUhW5n9cRdLE2DwyPNnaa AiepJLtwwZxjNN9TjxQwwOSrmrrOIvfJMk+A2km2D5z+uVSdHe69XAmglkoAlsY530JF x5K20l03lqYtKOx+iYFecmXDWleOeaqb/R3S56cNW0sMOFft3W673Dd1En90cwi0YBeH 7Hi+mf+1UXh1lWOOPLno34M/QVlOrVS7WblUSZIZPPY/JsvHUjzj5CBxDck6pgSQXlDh TuLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFVwWE/N4CNpBc7qHQZhi3Mgt9iR4Llb809+1pkzwdBM/VguI2C kxRsKn/eCZtzj7cB64NxVmlVr3+7mZsyLQXgSzr/7A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcNG90fINCPXQMPYdCXYJ0c5o/QVASJ0lQZdB82XdbQUTgEyji27E3mJvRjktFoZRyaYfbehHB5WEC7Wr5QNQA= X-Received: by 2002:a19:d819:: with SMTP id p25-v6mr95438lfg.36.1532575294970; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:21:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:21:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <406f2a12fdd745c18e0f11dd9fbb26eb@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180718133200.u7fpsv3xanb2nosr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <6707abca9924442083ef165ce1345b7e@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180720101419.7chri56rzgyidxmw@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <3b194cc7276b4e888c4e8b808d1c356a@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180723141416.mdzwa53nganbadbu@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <406f2a12fdd745c18e0f11dd9fbb26eb@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:21:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000c6fa90571de7e2f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 03:21:42 -0000 --0000000000000c6fa90571de7e2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, IMO there is a good enough plan in place to complete the configured subscriptions. The co-authors have done enough revisions. It is time to finish the drafts. We should let vendors experiment and also try to create a standard binary protocol. Andy On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > Hi Juergen, > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 23, 2018 10:14 AM > > > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 06:47:48PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > Hi Juergen, > > > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 20, 2018 6:14 AM > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 09:41:00AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > > > > > > That is what I was hoping would be accomplished with the text: > > > > > > > > > > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, > port, and > > > > > security credentials are left up to implementers of this > > > > > specification. For implementation guidance and a YANG model for > > this > > > > > function, please look to > > > > > [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server]. > > > > > > > > I said this is to vague for me to understand. Repeating the pointer > > > > does not help me to understand. If this I-D has a clear solution, > > > > why not put it in place? > > > > > > The recommended solution is for vendors to augment in their own > > leafrefs into existing vendor specific call home configurations. > > Alternatively, solutions can be integrated within non-YANG based > > configuration structures. This is how our configured subscription > > implementation works. > > > > > > To clarify the recommended solution, I have updated the reference above > > to: > > > > > > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, port, and > > security credentials are left up to implementers of this specification. > For > > implementation guidance on how a leafref might constructed to accomplish > > this function, consider the following augmentation which would need to be > > made if the necessary connection parameters are maintained with ietf- > > netconf-client.yang as specified by [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf- > netconf-client- > > server]. > > > > > > import ietf-netconf-client { prefix ncc; } > > > import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } > > > import ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications { prefix nsn; } > > > > > > augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receiver" > { > > > when 'derived-from(../../../transport, "nsn:netconf")'; > > > leaf netconf-endpoint { > > > type leafref { > > > path "/ncc:netconf-client/ncc:initiate/ncc:netconf- > > server/ncc:endpoints/ncc:endpoint/ncc:name"; > > > } > > > description > > > "Points to a remote NETCONF client intended to support a > particular > > configured subscription."; > > > } > > > } > > > > So why do we create a _standard_ that says take the other standard and > > then roll your own non-standard module to make them work together? > > My reading of your request was to make the current draft text less vague. > Hopefully providing an example augmentation based on a referenced > standard-in-progress removes this ambiguity. > > I would hope that when the other standard is ready, it doesn't take > something non-standard to bind them. There are earlier threads on how this > might be done. > > > > > > To cover this, there is the following text in Section 5 of > > > > > draft-ietf-netconf- > > > > netconf-event-notifications: > > > > > > > > > > publisher SHOULD place the receiver into the > > > > > "timeout" state after a predetermined number of either failed > call > > > > > home attempts or NETCONF sessions remotely terminated by the > > > > > receiver. > > > > > > > > > > Until NETCONF transport with a receiver has been established, > and a > > > > > "subscription-started" state change notification has been > > > > > successfully sent for a configured subscription, that > subscription's > > > > > receiver MUST remain in either the "connecting" or the "timeout" > > > > > state. > > > > > > > > <-- call home --> > > > > C: > > > > S: > > > > S: > > > > <-- session terminated --> > > > > > > > > The server believes 'notification has been successfully sent'. The > > > > other alternative would be a client that throws away notification > > > > messages not > > > > expected: > > > > > > > > <-- call home --> > > > > C: > > > > S: > > > > S: // -> discarded > > > > S: // -> discarded > > > > S: // -> discarded > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > Both scenarioes are problematic. > > > > > > Agree that there are these two scenarios. > > > > > > The first scenario isn't elegant, but I don't see it as problematic. > Per SN, > > transport loss places all receivers back into their connecting state. > And the > > NETCONF-Notif text quoted above shows that multiple session terminations > > places the subscription into "timeout" so that something can figure out > > what is wrong. > > > > > > The second scenario requires that NETCONF Call home is successfully > > configured with the right credentials on both sides of the connection, > and > > that the receiver's NETCONF client implementation is unable to terminate > a > > session receiving unwanted notification traffic. This is a concern, but > an > > implementer at least has some protections by controlling the call home > > connectivity parameters tied to a specific receiver. (See continue > reasoning > > below) > > > > There is nothing in NETCONF that requires a client to terminate a > session if > > the client receives an unexpected message. The control of call home > > parameters is no answer (first this is out of hands for the implementor > and > > second the problem is likely a misconfiguration in the first place that > leads > > to something not useful). I do not think your answers provide a solution > - I > > am not interested in justifications. > > A solution based on the correct call home parameter configuration does > work. But other than that, I agree with you: the current NETCONF > configured subscription solution does take some valid error conditions out > of the hands of implementers, and places them in the hands of operators. > > The biggest question I see is whether implementers want to do the leg-work > needed to building out the client capability advertisement capability to > protect against these failure scenarios. It would be great if NETCONF > implementers signaled they are ready to pick this up. > > > > > This is why I suggested that there needs to be some mechanism that > > > > tells the server that the client is willing to receive configured > > > > subscriptions before the server throws messages at > > > > the client. You will find differnet ideas in the mailing list > archive. > > > > > > In talking about this issue in the past, suggestions were made that the > > NETCONF client could advertise its capabilities for supporting configured > > subscriptions as part of the hello exchange. And that can be a > partial(*) > > solution to the problem. However there was pushback to this based on > > NETCONF client to server implementations not typically exchanging and > > interpreting the results of NETCONF client asserted capabilities. > > > > > > (*) the reason it is partial is that even if the client advertises > support for > > NETCONF configured subscriptions, there is still the possibility that > > something goes wrong with the receiver's receiving process with the > second > > scenario above. In which case you still need to have a way to terminate > the > > incoming notification stream by pulling down the NETCONF session. Still, > > there are obviously benefits of client capability signaling as an extra > layer of > > misconfiguration protections included. > > > > Simply pushing data to a receiver before checking that the receiver is > willing > > and able to consume the data is in my view not good protocol design. > There > > are cases where this is unavoidable but here we do have a client and > server > > talking to each other that can do better. > > > > > Looking at what is in the v10 draft, there are some protections for > both > > your scenarios above. But certainly it is not robust. And certainly > having > > the client advertise configured receiver support would be nice, but this > > would require more development. As based on the amount of > > development, we used the design philosophy of "it is better to start > with > > an 80% solution than a 120% solution :-)." > > > > There was also another proposal, namely to have the client request the > > start of notifications (like you would do with RC and SSE). I do not buy > the > > 80% solution argument for an excuse of poor protocol design. > > The other proposal is absolutely a valid way to do this. And as Andy and > others have pointed out, the current dynamic RPC > can be kicked off by such a process. > > However the call flow has more error conditions. As a result, three > years ago during scoping of the current suite of IETF subscription drafts, > this proposal was determined to be out-of-scope. This decision was not > necessarily a bad choice as I have seen proprietary non-NETCONF configured > subscription deployments thrive without a publisher requesting that a > client invoke the . > > As a result of the decision several years ago, no one has proposed an IETF > standards based call flow to invoke a client based > . It would be excellent if someone wanted to > propose a draft for this. > > > > I agree that the current protection could have an improved description. > > So I have placed the following text into the NETCONF-Notif security > > considerations section: > > > > > > " For a configured subscription, if NETCONF call home has been > configured > > with the working credentials, yet that the receiver's NETCONF client > > implementation is both unable to process inbound notifications and unable > > to terminate a session receiving unwanted traffic, then the receiver may > > receive unwanted event records. To minimize this risk, a publisher > > implementation should use dedicated call home connectivity port numbers > > and credentials specific to configured subscriptions. This will > minimize the > > chance that an unplanned NETCONF receiver will receive configured > > subscription notifications unexpectedly." > > > > Well, I would rather fix the issue than pushing the problem ultimately to > > operators. > > Your position is a valid one for sure. I have not yet heard of operator > wanting to attempt these more robust configuration protection mechanisms > yet. And as noted above, this is not a key use case for the deployments I > am seeing yet. > > Eric > > > /js > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --0000000000000c6fa90571de7e2f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

IMO there is a good enough plan in = place to complete the configured subscriptions.
The co-authors ha= ve done enough revisions. It is time to finish the drafts.

We should let vendors experiment and also try to create a standard= binary protocol.


Andy


On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.= com> wrote:
Hi Juergen,

> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 23, 2018 10:14 AM
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 06:47:48PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> > Hi Juergen,
> >
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 20, 2018 6:14 AM
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 09:41:00AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) = wrote:
> > >
> > > > That is what I was hoping would be accomplished with th= e text:
> > > >
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The method of identifying the targeted rec= eiver IP address, port, and
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 security credentials are left up to implem= enters of this
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 specification.=C2=A0 For implementation gu= idance and a YANG model for
> this
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 function, please look to
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-clien= t-server].
> > >
> > > I said this is to vague for me to understand. Repeating the = pointer
> > > does not help me to understand. If this I-D has a clear solu= tion,
> > > why not put it in place?
> >
> > The recommended solution is for vendors to augment in their own > leafrefs into existing vendor specific call home configurations.
> Alternatively, solutions can be integrated within non-YANG based
> configuration structures.=C2=A0 This is how our configured subscriptio= n
> implementation works.
> >
> > To clarify the recommended solution, I have updated the reference= above
> to:
> >
> > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, port,= and
> security credentials are left up to implementers of this specification= .=C2=A0 For
> implementation guidance on how a leafref might constructed to accompli= sh
> this function, consider the following augmentation which would need to= be
> made if the necessary connection parameters are maintained with ietf-<= br> > netconf-client.yang as specified by [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netco= nf-client-
> server].
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0import ietf-netconf-client { prefix ncc; }
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0import ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications { p= refix nsn; }
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/= sn:receivers/sn:receiver" {
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when 'derived-from(../../../transport, &quo= t;nsn:netconf")';
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf netconf-endpoint {
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type leafref {
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0path "/ncc:netconf-client/n= cc:initiate/ncc:netconf-
> server/ncc:endpoints/ncc:endpoint/ncc:name";
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0description
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Points to a remote NETCONF= client intended to support a particular
> configured subscription.";
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>
> So why do we create a _standard_ that says take the other standard and=
> then roll your own non-standard module to make them work together?

My reading of your request was to make the current draft text less vague.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hopefully providing an example augmentation based on a referen= ced standard-in-progress removes this ambiguity.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

I would hope that when the other standard is ready, it doesn't take som= ething non-standard to bind them.=C2=A0 There are earlier threads on how th= is might be done.

> > > > To cover this, there is the following text in Section 5= of
> > > > draft-ietf-netconf-
> > > netconf-event-notifications:
> > > >
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 publisher SHOULD place the receiver into t= he
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "timeout" state after a predeter= mined number of either failed call
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 home attempts or NETCONF sessions remotely= terminated by the
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 receiver.
> > > >
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Until NETCONF transport with a receiver ha= s been established, and a
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "subscription-started" state cha= nge notification has been
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 successfully sent for a configured subscri= ption, that subscription's
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 receiver MUST remain in either the "c= onnecting" or the "timeout"
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 state.
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<-- call home -->
> > >=C2=A0 C: <hello>
> > >=C2=A0 S: <hello>
> > >=C2=A0 S: <notification>
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<-- session terminated -->
> > >
> > > The server believes 'notification has been successfully = sent'.=C2=A0 The
> > > other alternative would be a client that throws away notific= ation
> > > messages not
> > > expected:
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<-- call home -->
> > >=C2=A0 C: <hello>
> > >=C2=A0 S: <hello>
> > >=C2=A0 S: <notification> // -> discarded
> > >=C2=A0 S: <notification> // -> discarded
> > >=C2=A0 S: <notification> // -> discarded
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[...]
> > >
> > > Both scenarioes are problematic.
> >
> > Agree that there are these two scenarios.
> >
> > The first scenario isn't elegant, but I don't see it as p= roblematic.=C2=A0 Per SN,
> transport loss places all receivers back into their connecting state.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0And the
> NETCONF-Notif text quoted above shows that multiple session terminatio= ns
> places the subscription into "timeout" so that something can= figure out
> what is wrong.
> >
> > The second scenario requires that NETCONF Call home is successful= ly
> configured with the right credentials on both sides of the connection,= and
> that the receiver's NETCONF client implementation is unable to ter= minate a
> session receiving unwanted notification traffic.=C2=A0 This is a conce= rn, but an
> implementer at least has some protections by controlling the call home=
> connectivity parameters tied to a specific receiver.=C2=A0 =C2=A0(See = continue reasoning
> below)
>
> There is nothing in NETCONF that requires a client to terminate a sess= ion if
> the client receives an unexpected message. The control of call home > parameters is no answer (first this is out of hands for the implemento= r and
> second the problem is likely a misconfiguration in the first place tha= t leads
> to something not useful). I do not think your answers provide a soluti= on - I
> am not interested in justifications.

A solution based on the correct call home parameter configuration does work= .=C2=A0 But other than that, I agree with you: the current NETCONF configur= ed subscription solution does take some valid error conditions out of the h= ands of implementers, and places them in the hands of operators.=C2=A0

The biggest question I see is whether implementers want to do the leg-work = needed to building out the client capability advertisement capability to pr= otect against these failure scenarios.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It would be great if NET= CONF implementers signaled they are ready to pick this up.=C2=A0

> > > This is why I suggested that there needs to be some mechanis= m that
> > > tells the server that the client is willing to receive confi= gured
> > > subscriptions before the server throws <notification> = messages at
> > > the client. You will find differnet ideas in the mailing lis= t archive.
> >
> > In talking about this issue in the past, suggestions were made th= at the
> NETCONF client could advertise its capabilities for supporting configu= red
> subscriptions as part of the hello exchange.=C2=A0 And that can be a p= artial(*)
> solution to the problem.=C2=A0 However there was pushback to this base= d on
> NETCONF client to server implementations not typically exchanging and<= br> > interpreting the results of NETCONF client asserted capabilities.
> >
> > (*) the reason it is partial is that even if the client advertise= s support for
> NETCONF configured subscriptions, there is still the possibility that<= br> > something goes wrong with the receiver's receiving process with th= e second
> scenario above.=C2=A0 In which case you still need to have a way to te= rminate the
> incoming notification stream by pulling down the NETCONF session.=C2= =A0 Still,
> there are obviously benefits of client capability signaling as an extr= a layer of
> misconfiguration protections included.
>
> Simply pushing data to a receiver before checking that the receiver is= willing
> and able to consume the data is in my view not good protocol design. T= here
> are cases where this is unavoidable but here we do have a client and s= erver
> talking to each other that can do better.
>
> > Looking at what is in the v10 draft, there are some protections f= or both
> your scenarios above.=C2=A0 But certainly it is not robust.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0And certainly having
> the client advertise configured receiver support would be nice, but th= is
> would require more development.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As based on the amount of<= br> > development,=C2=A0 we used the design philosophy of "it is better= to start with
> an 80% solution than a 120% solution :-)."
>
> There was also another proposal, namely to have the client request the=
> start of notifications (like you would do with RC and SSE). I do not b= uy the
> 80% solution argument for an excuse of poor protocol design.

The other proposal is absolutely a valid way to do this.=C2=A0 And as Andy = and others have pointed out, the current dynamic <establish-subscription= > RPC can be kicked off by such a process.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

However the call flow has more error conditions.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As a result, t= hree years ago during scoping of the current suite of IETF subscription dra= fts, this proposal was determined to be out-of-scope.=C2=A0 This decision w= as not necessarily a bad choice as I have seen proprietary non-NETCONF conf= igured subscription deployments thrive without a publisher requesting that = a client invoke the <establish-subscription>.

As a result of the decision several years ago, no one has proposed an IETF = standards based call flow to invoke a client based <establish-subscripti= on>.=C2=A0 It would be excellent if someone wanted to propose a draft fo= r this.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

> > I agree that the current protection could have an improved descri= ption.
> So I have placed the following text into the NETCONF-Notif security > considerations section:
> >
> > " For a configured subscription, if NETCONF call home has be= en configured
> with the working credentials, yet that the receiver's NETCONF clie= nt
> implementation is both unable to process inbound notifications and una= ble
> to terminate a session receiving unwanted traffic, then the receiver m= ay
> receive unwanted event records.=C2=A0 To minimize this risk, a publish= er
> implementation should use dedicated call home connectivity port number= s
> and credentials specific to configured subscriptions.=C2=A0 This will = minimize the
> chance that an unplanned NETCONF receiver will receive configured
> subscription notifications unexpectedly."
>
> Well, I would rather fix the issue than pushing the problem ultimately= to
> operators.

Your position is a valid one for sure.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have not yet heard of = operator wanting to attempt these more robust configuration protection mech= anisms yet.=C2=A0 And as noted above, this is not a key use case for the de= ployments I am seeing yet.

Eric

> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs U= niversity Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1= | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= ;https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--0000000000000c6fa90571de7e2f-- From nobody Thu Jul 26 02:15:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D03181310BC for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 02:15:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iVhN-IlCsM2O for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 02:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1DE213107A for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 02:15:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=33484; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532596522; x=1533806122; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=8oMf1vMv1aTQOcXDweBcMniJJBrpSai9izgDfhosZfw=; b=TLDdQoEyI/GP/g6+rP79sdg2iCVcC8KxfDTpLFxgPKUSPmGkKjU2vKnx 05o4ZI0U2x1Ngb/Yv8LwBH3wzc4p8FQOojdxf0y0wPGE3tzJ3tCrdrQ6+ qb4wot8E3sEULE/l1Sp23mWdn6DQ+HL3ZWb+cbsvX2+aGhX+q0F3gupuU s=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,404,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="5417208" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 26 Jul 2018 09:15:20 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.106] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-106.cisco.com [10.63.23.106]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6Q9FI7k021058; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 09:15:19 GMT To: Andy Bierman , "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <2E1BAD12-EFF2-4E35-B232-57A4C4490989@cisco.com> <20180717055030.7bmzlychtznf3mso@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18622ABD-DB9F-406C-836F-64649F3D8FF6@cisco.com> <20180717172036.hhuoq6fzs7ctblpf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180718133200.u7fpsv3xanb2nosr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <6707abca9924442083ef165ce1345b7e@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180720101419.7chri56rzgyidxmw@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <3b194cc7276b4e888c4e8b808d1c356a@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180723141416.mdzwa53nganbadbu@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <406f2a12fdd745c18e0f11dd9fbb26eb@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <9d2e34e6-fc40-9c4b-1be5-cbee3ff8f89c@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:15:18 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------01652FE236967258144769C5" Content-Language: en-US X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.63.23.106, dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-106.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 09:15:31 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------01652FE236967258144769C5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I basically agree with Andy. I appreciate from the comments that the configured subscriptions is not usable using standards transports yet, but it still seems that it would be more invasive to rip configured subscriptions out at this point in time.  I think as a WG we really want to get this document published otherwise it will be obsolete before it even has an RFC number.  We can fix up the configured subscriptions afterwards, and then publish a bis version that puts everything together. Thanks, Rob On 26/07/2018 04:21, Andy Bierman wrote: > Hi, > > IMO there is a good enough plan in place to complete the configured > subscriptions. > The co-authors have done enough revisions. It is time to finish the > drafts. > > We should let vendors experiment and also try to create a standard > binary protocol. > > > Andy > > > > On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) > wrote: > > Hi Juergen, > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 23, 2018 10:14 AM > > > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 06:47:48PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > Hi Juergen, > > > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 20, 2018 6:14 AM > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 09:41:00AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) > wrote: > > > > > > > > > That is what I was hoping would be accomplished with the text: > > > > > > > > > >    The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP > address, port, and > > > > >    security credentials are left up to implementers of this > > > > >    specification.  For implementation guidance and a YANG > model for > > this > > > > >    function, please look to > > > > >    [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server]. > > > > > > > > I said this is to vague for me to understand. Repeating the > pointer > > > > does not help me to understand. If this I-D has a clear > solution, > > > > why not put it in place? > > > > > > The recommended solution is for vendors to augment in their own > > leafrefs into existing vendor specific call home configurations. > > Alternatively, solutions can be integrated within non-YANG based > > configuration structures.  This is how our configured subscription > > implementation works. > > > > > > To clarify the recommended solution, I have updated the > reference above > > to: > > > > > > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, > port, and > > security credentials are left up to implementers of this > specification..  For > > implementation guidance on how a leafref might constructed to > accomplish > > this function, consider the following augmentation which would > need to be > > made if the necessary connection parameters are maintained with > ietf- > > netconf-client.yang as specified by > [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client- > > server]. > > > > > >   import ietf-netconf-client { prefix ncc; } > > >   import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } > > >   import ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications { prefix nsn; } > > > > > >   augment > "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receiver" { > > >    when 'derived-from(../../../transport, "nsn:netconf")'; > > >    leaf netconf-endpoint { > > >       type leafref { > > >         path "/ncc:netconf-client/ncc:initiate/ncc:netconf- > > server/ncc:endpoints/ncc:endpoint/ncc:name"; > > >       } > > >       description > > >         "Points to a remote NETCONF client intended to support > a particular > > configured subscription."; > > >     } > > >   } > > > > So why do we create a _standard_ that says take the other > standard and > > then roll your own non-standard module to make them work together? > > My reading of your request was to make the current draft text less > vague.   Hopefully providing an example augmentation based on a > referenced standard-in-progress removes this ambiguity. > > I would hope that when the other standard is ready, it doesn't > take something non-standard to bind them.  There are earlier > threads on how this might be done. > > > > > > To cover this, there is the following text in Section 5 of > > > > > draft-ietf-netconf- > > > > netconf-event-notifications: > > > > > > > > > >    publisher SHOULD place the receiver into the > > > > >    "timeout" state after a predetermined number of either > failed call > > > > >    home attempts or NETCONF sessions remotely terminated > by the > > > > >    receiver. > > > > > > > > > >    Until NETCONF transport with a receiver has been > established, and a > > > > >    "subscription-started" state change notification has been > > > > >    successfully sent for a configured subscription, that > subscription's > > > > >    receiver MUST remain in either the "connecting" or the > "timeout" > > > > >    state. > > > > > > > >     <-- call home --> > > > >  C: > > > >  S: > > > >  S: > > > >     <-- session terminated --> > > > > > > > > The server believes 'notification has been successfully > sent'.  The > > > > other alternative would be a client that throws away > notification > > > > messages not > > > > expected: > > > > > > > >     <-- call home --> > > > >  C: > > > >  S: > > > >  S: // -> discarded > > > >  S: // -> discarded > > > >  S: // -> discarded > > > >     [...] > > > > > > > > Both scenarioes are problematic. > > > > > > Agree that there are these two scenarios. > > > > > > The first scenario isn't elegant, but I don't see it as > problematic.  Per SN, > > transport loss places all receivers back into their connecting > state.   And the > > NETCONF-Notif text quoted above shows that multiple session > terminations > > places the subscription into "timeout" so that something can > figure out > > what is wrong. > > > > > > The second scenario requires that NETCONF Call home is > successfully > > configured with the right credentials on both sides of the > connection, and > > that the receiver's NETCONF client implementation is unable to > terminate a > > session receiving unwanted notification traffic.  This is a > concern, but an > > implementer at least has some protections by controlling the > call home > > connectivity parameters tied to a specific receiver.  (See > continue reasoning > > below) > > > > There is nothing in NETCONF that requires a client to terminate > a session if > > the client receives an unexpected message. The control of call home > > parameters is no answer (first this is out of hands for the > implementor and > > second the problem is likely a misconfiguration in the first > place that leads > > to something not useful). I do not think your answers provide a > solution - I > > am not interested in justifications. > > A solution based on the correct call home parameter configuration > does work..  But other than that, I agree with you: the current > NETCONF configured subscription solution does take some valid > error conditions out of the hands of implementers, and places them > in the hands of operators. > > The biggest question I see is whether implementers want to do the > leg-work needed to building out the client capability > advertisement capability to protect against these failure > scenarios.   It would be great if NETCONF implementers signaled > they are ready to pick this up. > > > > > This is why I suggested that there needs to be some > mechanism that > > > > tells the server that the client is willing to receive > configured > > > > subscriptions before the server throws > messages at > > > > the client. You will find differnet ideas in the mailing > list archive. > > > > > > In talking about this issue in the past, suggestions were made > that the > > NETCONF client could advertise its capabilities for supporting > configured > > subscriptions as part of the hello exchange.  And that can be a > partial(*) > > solution to the problem.  However there was pushback to this > based on > > NETCONF client to server implementations not typically > exchanging and > > interpreting the results of NETCONF client asserted capabilities. > > > > > > (*) the reason it is partial is that even if the client > advertises support for > > NETCONF configured subscriptions, there is still the possibility > that > > something goes wrong with the receiver's receiving process with > the second > > scenario above.  In which case you still need to have a way to > terminate the > > incoming notification stream by pulling down the NETCONF > session.  Still, > > there are obviously benefits of client capability signaling as > an extra layer of > > misconfiguration protections included. > > > > Simply pushing data to a receiver before checking that the > receiver is willing > > and able to consume the data is in my view not good protocol > design. There > > are cases where this is unavoidable but here we do have a client > and server > > talking to each other that can do better. > > > > > Looking at what is in the v10 draft, there are some > protections for both > > your scenarios above.  But certainly it is not robust.  And > certainly having > > the client advertise configured receiver support would be nice, > but this > > would require more development.   As based on the amount of > > development,  we used the design philosophy of "it is better to > start with > > an 80% solution than a 120% solution :-)." > > > > There was also another proposal, namely to have the client > request the > > start of notifications (like you would do with RC and SSE). I do > not buy the > > 80% solution argument for an excuse of poor protocol design. > > The other proposal is absolutely a valid way to do this. And as > Andy and others have pointed out, the current dynamic > RPC can be kicked off by such a process. > > However the call flow has more error conditions.   As a result, > three years ago during scoping of the current suite of IETF > subscription drafts, this proposal was determined to be > out-of-scope.  This decision was not necessarily a bad choice as I > have seen proprietary non-NETCONF configured subscription > deployments thrive without a publisher requesting that a client > invoke the . > > As a result of the decision several years ago, no one has proposed > an IETF standards based call flow to invoke a client based > .  It would be excellent if someone wanted > to propose a draft for this. > > > > I agree that the current protection could have an improved > description. > > So I have placed the following text into the NETCONF-Notif security > > considerations section: > > > > > > " For a configured subscription, if NETCONF call home has been > configured > > with the working credentials, yet that the receiver's NETCONF client > > implementation is both unable to process inbound notifications > and unable > > to terminate a session receiving unwanted traffic, then the > receiver may > > receive unwanted event records.  To minimize this risk, a publisher > > implementation should use dedicated call home connectivity port > numbers > > and credentials specific to configured subscriptions. This will > minimize the > > chance that an unplanned NETCONF receiver will receive configured > > subscription notifications unexpectedly." > > > > Well, I would rather fix the issue than pushing the problem > ultimately to > > operators. > > Your position is a valid one for sure.   I have not yet heard of > operator wanting to attempt these more robust configuration > protection mechanisms yet.  And as noted above, this is not a key > use case for the deployments I am seeing yet. > > Eric > > > /js > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | > Germany > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103        >   > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf --------------01652FE236967258144769C5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I basically agree with Andy.

I appreciate from the comments that the configured subscriptions is not usable using standards transports yet, but it still seems that it would be more invasive to rip configured subscriptions out at this point in time.  I think as a WG we really want to get this document published otherwise it will be obsolete before it even has an RFC number.  We can fix up the configured subscriptions afterwards, and then publish a bis version that puts everything together.

Thanks,
Rob


On 26/07/2018 04:21, Andy Bierman wrote:
Hi,

IMO there is a good enough plan in place to complete the configured subscriptions.
The co-authors have done enough revisions. It is time to finish the drafts.

We should let vendors experiment and also try to create a standard binary protocol.


Andy



On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Juergen,

> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 23, 2018 10:14 AM
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 06:47:48PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> > Hi Juergen,
> >
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 20, 2018 6:14 AM
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 09:41:00AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> > >
> > > > That is what I was hoping would be accomplished with the text:
> > > >
> > > >    The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, port, and
> > > >    security credentials are left up to implementers of this
> > > >    specification.  For implementation guidance and a YANG model for
> this
> > > >    function, please look to
> > > >    [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server].
> > >
> > > I said this is to vague for me to understand. Repeating the pointer
> > > does not help me to understand. If this I-D has a clear solution,
> > > why not put it in place?
> >
> > The recommended solution is for vendors to augment in their own
> leafrefs into existing vendor specific call home configurations.
> Alternatively, solutions can be integrated within non-YANG based
> configuration structures.  This is how our configured subscription
> implementation works.
> >
> > To clarify the recommended solution, I have updated the reference above
> to:
> >
> > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, port, and
> security credentials are left up to implementers of this specification..  For
> implementation guidance on how a leafref might constructed to accomplish
> this function, consider the following augmentation which would need to be
> made if the necessary connection parameters are maintained with ietf-
> netconf-client.yang as specified by [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-
> server].
> >
> >   import ietf-netconf-client { prefix ncc; }
> >   import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; }
> >   import ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications { prefix nsn; }
> >
> >   augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receiver" {
> >    when 'derived-from(../../../transport, "nsn:netconf")';
> >    leaf netconf-endpoint {
> >       type leafref {
> >         path "/ncc:netconf-client/ncc:initiate/ncc:netconf-
> server/ncc:endpoints/ncc:endpoint/ncc:name";
> >       }
> >       description
> >         "Points to a remote NETCONF client intended to support a particular
> configured subscription.";
> >     }
> >   }
>
> So why do we create a _standard_ that says take the other standard and
> then roll your own non-standard module to make them work together?

My reading of your request was to make the current draft text less vague.   Hopefully providing an example augmentation based on a referenced standard-in-progress removes this ambiguity.   

I would hope that when the other standard is ready, it doesn't take something non-standard to bind them.  There are earlier threads on how this might be done.

> > > > To cover this, there is the following text in Section 5 of
> > > > draft-ietf-netconf-
> > > netconf-event-notifications:
> > > >
> > > >    publisher SHOULD place the receiver into the
> > > >    "timeout" state after a predetermined number of either failed call
> > > >    home attempts or NETCONF sessions remotely terminated by the
> > > >    receiver.
> > > >
> > > >    Until NETCONF transport with a receiver has been established, and a
> > > >    "subscription-started" state change notification has been
> > > >    successfully sent for a configured subscription, that subscription's
> > > >    receiver MUST remain in either the "connecting" or the "timeout"
> > > >    state.
> > >
> > >     <-- call home -->
> > >  C: <hello>
> > >  S: <hello>
> > >  S: <notification>
> > >     <-- session terminated -->
> > >
> > > The server believes 'notification has been successfully sent'.  The
> > > other alternative would be a client that throws away notification
> > > messages not
> > > expected:
> > >
> > >     <-- call home -->
> > >  C: <hello>
> > >  S: <hello>
> > >  S: <notification> // -> discarded
> > >  S: <notification> // -> discarded
> > >  S: <notification> // -> discarded
> > >     [...]
> > >
> > > Both scenarioes are problematic.
> >
> > Agree that there are these two scenarios.
> >
> > The first scenario isn't elegant, but I don't see it as problematic.  Per SN,
> transport loss places all receivers back into their connecting state.   And the
> NETCONF-Notif text quoted above shows that multiple session terminations
> places the subscription into "timeout" so that something can figure out
> what is wrong.
> >
> > The second scenario requires that NETCONF Call home is successfully
> configured with the right credentials on both sides of the connection, and
> that the receiver's NETCONF client implementation is unable to terminate a
> session receiving unwanted notification traffic.  This is a concern, but an
> implementer at least has some protections by controlling the call home
> connectivity parameters tied to a specific receiver.   (See continue reasoning
> below)
>
> There is nothing in NETCONF that requires a client to terminate a session if
> the client receives an unexpected message. The control of call home
> parameters is no answer (first this is out of hands for the implementor and
> second the problem is likely a misconfiguration in the first place that leads
> to something not useful). I do not think your answers provide a solution - I
> am not interested in justifications.

A solution based on the correct call home parameter configuration does work..  But other than that, I agree with you: the current NETCONF configured subscription solution does take some valid error conditions out of the hands of implementers, and places them in the hands of operators. 

The biggest question I see is whether implementers want to do the leg-work needed to building out the client capability advertisement capability to protect against these failure scenarios.   It would be great if NETCONF implementers signaled they are ready to pick this up. 

> > > This is why I suggested that there needs to be some mechanism that
> > > tells the server that the client is willing to receive configured
> > > subscriptions before the server throws <notification> messages at
> > > the client. You will find differnet ideas in the mailing list archive.
> >
> > In talking about this issue in the past, suggestions were made that the
> NETCONF client could advertise its capabilities for supporting configured
> subscriptions as part of the hello exchange.  And that can be a partial(*)
> solution to the problem.  However there was pushback to this based on
> NETCONF client to server implementations not typically exchanging and
> interpreting the results of NETCONF client asserted capabilities.
> >
> > (*) the reason it is partial is that even if the client advertises support for
> NETCONF configured subscriptions, there is still the possibility that
> something goes wrong with the receiver's receiving process with the second
> scenario above.  In which case you still need to have a way to terminate the
> incoming notification stream by pulling down the NETCONF session.  Still,
> there are obviously benefits of client capability signaling as an extra layer of
> misconfiguration protections included.
>
> Simply pushing data to a receiver before checking that the receiver is willing
> and able to consume the data is in my view not good protocol design. There
> are cases where this is unavoidable but here we do have a client and server
> talking to each other that can do better.
>
> > Looking at what is in the v10 draft, there are some protections for both
> your scenarios above.  But certainly it is not robust.   And certainly having
> the client advertise configured receiver support would be nice, but this
> would require more development.   As based on the amount of
> development,  we used the design philosophy of "it is better to start with
> an 80% solution than a 120% solution :-)."
>
> There was also another proposal, namely to have the client request the
> start of notifications (like you would do with RC and SSE). I do not buy the
> 80% solution argument for an excuse of poor protocol design.

The other proposal is absolutely a valid way to do this.  And as Andy and others have pointed out, the current dynamic <establish-subscription> RPC can be kicked off by such a process.   

However the call flow has more error conditions.   As a result, three years ago during scoping of the current suite of IETF subscription drafts, this proposal was determined to be out-of-scope.  This decision was not necessarily a bad choice as I have seen proprietary non-NETCONF configured subscription deployments thrive without a publisher requesting that a client invoke the <establish-subscription>.

As a result of the decision several years ago, no one has proposed an IETF standards based call flow to invoke a client based <establish-subscription>.  It would be excellent if someone wanted to propose a draft for this.   

> > I agree that the current protection could have an improved description.
> So I have placed the following text into the NETCONF-Notif security
> considerations section:
> >
> > " For a configured subscription, if NETCONF call home has been configured
> with the working credentials, yet that the receiver's NETCONF client
> implementation is both unable to process inbound notifications and unable
> to terminate a session receiving unwanted traffic, then the receiver may
> receive unwanted event records.  To minimize this risk, a publisher
> implementation should use dedicated call home connectivity port numbers
> and credentials specific to configured subscriptions.  This will minimize the
> chance that an unplanned NETCONF receiver will receive configured
> subscription notifications unexpectedly."
>
> Well, I would rather fix the issue than pushing the problem ultimately to
> operators.

Your position is a valid one for sure.   I have not yet heard of operator wanting to attempt these more robust configuration protection mechanisms yet.  And as noted above, this is not a key use case for the deployments I am seeing yet.

Eric

> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>



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"netconf@ietf.org" , Andy Bierman Thread-Topic: YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: [Netconf] YangPush now) Thread-Index: AdQlFf9xkZm2JtfEQpiUkPoxrfRlrA== Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 19:22:40 +0000 Message-ID: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3XCHRTP013ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.151, xch-rtp-011.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 19:22:46 -0000 --_000_727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3XCHRTP013ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgWUFORyBkb2N0b3JzLA0KDQoNCg0KV2UgYXJlIHRyeWluZyB0byBjbG9zZSBvbiBzb21lIFlB TkcgcHVzaCBkcmFmdHMuICBUaGVyZSBpcyBvbmUgWUFORyByZWxhdGVkIHF1ZXN0aW9uIEkgd291 bGQgbGlrZSB0byBib3VuY2Ugb2ZmIG9mIHlvdSBiZWZvcmUgbWFraW5nIGEgc3VnZ2VzdGVkIGNo YW5nZS4NCg0KDQoNCkluIHRoZSB0aHJlYWQ6DQoNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWwt YXJjaGl2ZS93ZWIvbmV0Y29uZi9jdXJyZW50L21zZzE1MTY5Lmh0bWwNCg0KaXMgdGhlIGZvbGxv d2luZyByZXF1ZXN0Og0KDQoNCg0KPiBGcm9tOiBLZW50IFdhdHNlbiwgSnVseSAyNiwgMjAxOCAx OjQ4IFBNDQoNCj4NCg0KPiA8Y2hhaXIgaGF0IG9uPg0KDQo+IC4uLg0KDQo+DQoNCj4gQXNzdW1p 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<6707abca9924442083ef165ce1345b7e@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180720101419.7chri56rzgyidxmw@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <3b194cc7276b4e888c4e8b808d1c356a@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180723141416.mdzwa53nganbadbu@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <406f2a12fdd745c18e0f11dd9fbb26eb@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <9d2e34e6-fc40-9c4b-1be5-cbee3ff8f89c@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.151, xch-rtp-011.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 19:41:40 -0000 SGkgS2VudCwNCg0KPiBGcm9tOiBLZW50IFdhdHNlbiwgSnVseSAyNiwgMjAxOCAxOjQ4IFBNDQo+ IA0KPiA8Y2hhaXIgaGF0IG9uPg0KPiAuLi4NCj4gQXNzdW1pbmcgbm8gb2JqZWN0aW9ucywgdG8g Y2xvc2UgdGhlIGlzc3VlcyBkaXNjdXNzZWQgaW4gTW9udHJlYWwsIHdlJ3JlIHdhaXRpbmcgDQo+ IGZvciB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIHVwZGF0ZXM6DQo+IA0KPiAuLi4NCj4gIG5ldGNvbmYtbm90aWY6 IG1vZGlmeSB0byBvbmx5IHJlZmxlY3QgbmV0Y29uZiBmb3IgZHluYW1pYyBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25z DQoNClRoaXMgd291bGQgYmUgYSB0d2VhayBmcm9tIGNhc2UgQTIgZnJvbSB0aGUgV0cgc2Vzc2lv biBzbGlkZXMuICAgUGVyc29uYWxseSBJIGhhdmUgbm8gaXNzdWUgd2l0aCB0aGlzIHZlcnNpb24g b2YgQTIuICBZb3UgYW5kIEkgaGF2ZSBhbHJlYWR5IHNjb3BlZCB0aGUgY2hhbmdlcy4gIFBsdXMg SSBkb24ndCBrbm93IG9mIGFueW9uZSB3aG8gaGFzIGFuIGlzc3VlIHdpdGggQTIuICAgQnV0IHdl IGxlZnQgdGhlIFdHIHNlc3Npb24gd2l0aCBjYXNlIEExIGJlaW5nIHNlbGVjdGVkLiAgIA0KDQpQ cm9jZWR1cmFsbHkgaG93IGxvbmcgbXVzdCB3ZSB3YWl0IGJlZm9yZSBzdWNoIGEgc2NvcGUgY2hh bmdlIGJlY29tZXMgV0cgY29uc2Vuc3VzPyAgQXJlIHRoZXJlIG1hbmRhdG9yeSBwZW9wbGUgeW91 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KDEpIGlzIHBvc3NpYmxlLCBhbmQgaWYgbm90LCBnbyBmb3IgKDIpLiAgVGhpcyBzaG91bGRuJ3QN CnJlcXVpcmUgYW55IG1vcmUgY29uc2Vuc3VzIHRoYW4gd2UgaGF2ZSBhbHJlYWR5LiAgVGhhdCBz YWlkLCBhcyBhbHdheXMsIGlmDQphbnlvbmUgb2JqZWN0cywgcGxlYXNlIHNwZWFrIG5vdyENCg0K DQpUaGFua3MsDQpLZW50DQoNCg0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Thu Jul 26 15:11:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A91131246; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:11:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qJAIRWZ-Ttr5; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0BD131244; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id A945A2385F90; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 00:11:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 00:11:21 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Kent Watsen , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Kent Watsen , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:11:26 -0000 On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 07:22:40PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > For all receivers in a subscription, the selected transport choice > case in Kent’s suggestion above MUST match to the value of the > “transport” leaf which is one level higher in the tree. I.e.: > > +--rw subscriptions > +--rw subscription* [identifier] > +--rw transport transport {configured}? > +--rw receivers > +--rw receiver* [name] > +--rw (transport) > +--rw :(NETCONF) > | +--rw (NETCONF specific call home parameters) > +--rw :(HTTP2) > +--rw (HTTP2 specific parameters) > > (Note on the tree above, I inserted the NETCONF and HTTP2 cases of > transport for illustration purposes for the question below. These > two cases would actually be incorporated via separate augmentations > to the ietf-subscribed-notifications.yang model.) > > Considering above, It seems difficult to enforce that the transport > cases selected under all receivers for a single subscription MUST be > identical, and also MUST match to the value of the “transport” leaf > under the subscription. Why is the transport leaf needed if the choice cases identify the transport? Why do all receivers of a subscription have to use the same transport? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Jul 26 16:30:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7AA1130DDB; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:30:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q1a7qFUOe10A; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8290B131263; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108159.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w6QNTDgA002018; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:30:37 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=IquGg+aHsLfrk7pE1Fib7ittPByUfNLuxEPoAvOB1Zw=; b=FoWdeWWhEF7Pc9/HatYgQw3vd4QJ/XhBFlEOZD+llKY/gkf8V4sqpnosvyxvKE5mtkmA kHqGtooXPNMYzhwfp09v9oHg379qk6yq66Exx7SEj+GmM6iFZTI23B7h03wlslq2JSOh orDqk0lMjaDgrNwWxaZiqQw0vbCSgq40l83xQxP6I8d0FdZQ9pKnLzxw8UEdYgJd9/Ki A4IWmVzm58HtICkSTRRRxeyW+ZZnw26Qfu01Lgzz2Z7Ltb4scZYNKOZG412+qV00EL8a cqCN+D3on4WLVDXtuKHdW3Momzi9bFAD6smeRHCymcDIocntG4Z0hll3Jj1grwv2FZIi 9Q== Received: from nam05-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam05lp0243.outbound.protection.outlook.com [216.32.181.243]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2kfh870rtg-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:30:37 -0700 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.200.153) by BYAPR05MB3958.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.195.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1017.5; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:30:35 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::84c5:999c:9159:d416]) by BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::84c5:999c:9159:d416%2]) with mapi id 15.20.0995.014; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:30:35 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "Eric Voit (evoit)" CC: "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? 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(was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:30:41 -0000 SGkgSnVlcmdlbiwNCg0KDQo+IFdoeSBpcyB0aGUgdHJhbnNwb3J0IGxlYWYgbmVlZGVkIGlmIHRo ZSBjaG9pY2UgY2FzZXMgaWRlbnRpZnkgdGhlIHRyYW5zcG9ydD8gDQoNCk15IHVuZGVyc3RhbmRp bmcgaXMgdGhhdCB0aGlzIGxlYWYgaXMgbmVlZGVkIChleGNsdXNpdmVseT8pIHRvIHN1cHBvcnQg dGhlDQplbmZvcmNlbWVudCB0aGF0IGFsbCB0aGUgdHJhbnNwb3J0cyBmb3IgYSBnaXZlbiBzdWJz Y3JpcHRpb24gdXNlIHRoZSBzYW1lDQp0cmFuc3BvcnQuDQoNCkkndmUgYWxzbyBiZWVuIGFza2lu ZyBhYm91dCB0aGlzLCBwYXJ0bHkgZnJvbSB0aGUgImRpZmZpY3VsdGx5IHRvIGVuZm9yY2UiDQpy ZWFzb24gRXJpYyBtZW50aW9ucyAodGhvdWdoIHNlZSB0aGUgIndoZW4iIHN0YXRlbWVudCBpbiBF cmljJ3MgNy8yMCBlbWFpbA0Kd2hlcmUgaGUgcmVzb2x2ZXMgdGhpcywgSSB0aG91Z2h0KSwgYnV0 IGFsc28gZnJvbSBhICJhcmUgd2UgbWFraW5nIHRoaXMNCm1vcmUgZGlmZmljdWx0IHRoYW4gbmVl ZGVkPyIgcGVyc3BlY3RpdmUuDQoNCg0KPiBXaHkgZG8gYWxsIHJlY2VpdmVycyBvZiBhIHN1YnNj cmlwdGlvbiBoYXZlIHRvIHVzZSB0aGUgc2FtZSB0cmFuc3BvcnQ/DQoNClRoaXMgd2FzIHNvbWV0 aGluZyB0aGF0IE1hcnRpbiBhbmQgRXJpYyB3b3JrZWQgb3V0IGJlZm9yZSB3ZSBkaWQgdGhlIGZp cnN0DQpMYXN0IENhbGwuICBFcmljIGRvZXNuJ3Qgc2VlbSB0byBrbm93IHRoZSBwYXJ0aWN1bGFy IHJlYXNvbiwgb3RoZXIgdGhhbiANCk1hcnRpbiBzZWVtcyB0byB0aGluayBpdOKAmXMgZWFzaWVy Lg0KDQpUaGlua2luZyBvdXQgbG91ZCwgSSBjYW4gc29ydC1vZiwgYnV0IG5vdCByZWFsbHksIHVu ZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhlIG1vdGl2YXRpb24NCmZvciB3YW50aW5nIHRvIGVuZm9yY2UgdGhlIHNhbWUg ZW5jb2RpbmcgKHhtbCwganNvbiwgZXRjLikgYWNyb3NzIHJlY2VpdmVycw0KYW5kLCBzaW5jZSBz b21lIHRyYW5zcG9ydHMgbWF5IHJlcXVpcmUgY2VydGFpbiBlbmNvZGluZ3MgKGkuZS4gbmV0Y29u Zi0tPnhtbCwNCmNvYXAtLT5jYm9yLCBldGMuKSwgaXQgY2FycmllcyB0aGF0IHRoZSB0cmFuc3Bv cnRzIHNob3VsZCBiZSB0aGUgc2FtZSB0b28/DQoNCldoYXQgSSBkb24ndCBsaWtlIGFib3V0IHRo aXMgYXJndW1lbnQgaXM6DQoNCjEpIEl0J3Mgbm90IHVzZXItZnJpZW5kbHkuICBJZiBhIHNlcnZl ciByZWFsbHkgZG9lcyBoYXZlIHRvIHNlbmQgc2ltaWxhciANCiAgIHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbnMgdG8g YSBzZXQgcmVjZWl2ZXJzIHVzaW5nIGRpZmZlcmVudCB0cmFuc3BvcnRzIGFuZC9vciANCiAgIGVu Y29kaW5ncywgd2UndmUgaW50cm9kdWNlZCB3aGF0IGxvb2tzIGxpa2UgYW4gYXJ0aWZpY2lhbCBu ZWVkIHRvIA0KICAgZHVwbGljYXRlIHRoZSBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIGZvciBlYWNoIHVuaXF1ZSB0 cmFuc3BvcnQrZW5jb2RpbmcgDQogICBjb21iaW5hdGlvbi4NCg0KMikgSSBkb24ndCB1bmRlcnN0 YW5kIHRoZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBpc3N1ZS4gIE15IHZpZXcgaXMgdGhhdCBzbGlnaHRseQ0K ICAgY2xldmVyIGNvZGUgdGhhdCBjYWNoZXMgZW5jb2RpbmdzIHVzZWQgY291bGQgZG8gdGhpcyBp biBvbmUgbG9vcC4gIA0KICAgSGVyZSdzIHNvbWUgcHNldWRvLXB5dGhvbmljIGNvZGU6DQoNCiAg IHNlbmQtbm90aWZpY2F0aW9uLXRvLXJlY2VpdmVycyhyZWNlaXZlcnMsIG5hdGl2ZS1ub3RpZmlj YXRpb24pOg0KICAgICB4bWwtbm90aWZpY2F0aW9uPU5vbmUNCiAgICAganNvbi1ub3RpZmljYXRp b249Tm9uZQ0KICAgICBmb3IgcmVjZWl2ZXIgaW4gcmVjZWl2ZXJzOg0KICAgICAgIGlmIHJlY2Vp dmVyLmVuY29kaW5nIGlzIFhNTDoNCiAgICAgICAgIGlmIHhtbC1ub3RpZmljYXRpb24gaXMgTm9u ZToNCiAgICAgICAgICAgeG1sLW5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbiA9IHRvLXhtbChuYXRpdmUtbm90aWZpY2F0 aW9uKQ0KICAgICAgICAgcmVjZWl2ZXIuc2VuZCh4bWwtbm90aWZpY2F0aW9uKQ0KICAgICAgIGlm IHJlY2VpdmVyLmVuY29kaW5nIGlzIEpTT046DQogICAgICAgICBpZiBqc29uLW5vdGlmaWNhdGlv biBpcyBOb25lOg0KICAgICAgICAgICBqc29uLW5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbiA9IHRvLWpzb24obmF0aXZl LW5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbikNCiAgICAgICAgIHJlY2VpdmVyLnNlbmQoanNvbi1ub3RpZmljYXRpb24p DQoNCiAgIA0KS2VudCAvLyBhcyBhIGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9yDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Thu Jul 26 16:35:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B732F131269; 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26 Jul 2018 23:35:05 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (xch-rtp-011.cisco.com [64.101.220.151]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6QNZ5fO028283 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:35:05 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 19:35:04 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 19:35:04 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Kent Watsen , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: [Netconf] YangPush now) Thread-Index: AQHUJS2cZg8w9iUFbU+0+L6a3bxq1aSiIzgw Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:35:04 +0000 Message-ID: <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.151, xch-rtp-011.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:35:09 -0000 SGkgSnVlcmdlbiwNCg0KPiBGcm9tOiBKdWVyZ2VuIFNjaG9lbndhZWxkZXIsIEp1bHkgMjYsIDIw MTggNjoxMSBQTQ0KPiBUbzogRXJpYyBWb2l0IChldm9pdCkgPGV2b2l0QGNpc2NvLmNvbT4NCj4g Q2M6IEtlbnQgV2F0c2VuIDxrd2F0c2VuQGp1bmlwZXIubmV0PjsgeWFuZy1kb2N0b3JzQGlldGYu b3JnOw0KPiBuZXRjb25mQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbeWFuZy1kb2N0b3JzXSBZ QU5HIERvY3RvciBxdWVzdGlvbjogZW1wdHkgbWFuZGF0b3J5DQo+IGNob2ljZT8gKHdhcyBSRTog W05ldGNvbmZdIFlhbmdQdXNoIG5vdykNCj4gDQo+IE9uIFRodSwgSnVsIDI2LCAyMDE4IGF0IDA3 OjIyOjQwUE0gKzAwMDAsIEVyaWMgVm9pdCAoZXZvaXQpIHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gPiBGb3IgYWxs IHJlY2VpdmVycyBpbiBhIHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbiwgdGhlIHNlbGVjdGVkIHRyYW5zcG9ydCBjaG9p Y2UNCj4gPiBjYXNlIGluIEtlbnTigJlzIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24gYWJvdmUgTVVTVCBtYXRjaCB0byB0 aGUgdmFsdWUgb2YgdGhlDQo+ID4g4oCcdHJhbnNwb3J04oCdIGxlYWYgd2hpY2ggaXMgb25lIGxl dmVsIGhpZ2hlciBpbiB0aGUgdHJlZS4gIEkuZS46DQo+ID4NCj4gPiAgICAgKy0tcncgc3Vic2Ny aXB0aW9ucw0KPiA+ICAgICAgICArLS1ydyBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb24qIFtpZGVudGlmaWVyXQ0KPiA+ ICAgICAgICAgICArLS1ydyB0cmFuc3BvcnQgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgdHJhbnNwb3J0IHtjb25maWd1cmVkfT8NCj4gPiAgICAgICAgICAgKy0tcncgcmVjZWl2ZXJz DQo+ID4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICstLXJ3IHJlY2VpdmVyKiBbbmFtZV0NCj4gPiAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgKy0tcncgKHRyYW5zcG9ydCkNCj4gPiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgKy0tcncgOihORVRDT05G KQ0KPiA+ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICB8ICArLS1ydyAoTkVUQ09ORiBzcGVjaWZpYyBjYWxsIGhv bWUgcGFyYW1ldGVycykNCj4gPiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgKy0tcncgOihIVFRQMikNCj4gPiAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICstLXJ3IChIVFRQMiBzcGVjaWZpYyBwYXJhbWV0ZXJzKQ0KPiA+ DQo+ID4gKE5vdGUgb24gdGhlIHRyZWUgYWJvdmUsIEkgaW5zZXJ0ZWQgdGhlIE5FVENPTkYgYW5k IEhUVFAyIGNhc2VzIG9mDQo+ID4gdHJhbnNwb3J0IGZvciBpbGx1c3RyYXRpb24gcHVycG9zZXMg Zm9yIHRoZSBxdWVzdGlvbiBiZWxvdy4gIFRoZXNlIHR3bw0KPiA+IGNhc2VzIHdvdWxkIGFjdHVh bGx5IGJlIGluY29ycG9yYXRlZCB2aWEgc2VwYXJhdGUgYXVnbWVudGF0aW9ucyB0byB0aGUNCj4g PiBpZXRmLXN1YnNjcmliZWQtbm90aWZpY2F0aW9ucy55YW5nIG1vZGVsLikNCj4gPg0KPiA+IENv bnNpZGVyaW5nIGFib3ZlLCBJdCBzZWVtcyBkaWZmaWN1bHQgdG8gZW5mb3JjZSB0aGF0IHRoZSB0 cmFuc3BvcnQNCj4gPiBjYXNlcyBzZWxlY3RlZCB1bmRlciBhbGwgcmVjZWl2ZXJzIGZvciBhIHNp bmdsZSBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb24gTVVTVCBiZQ0KPiA+IGlkZW50aWNhbCwgYW5kIGFsc28gTVVTVCBt YXRjaCB0byB0aGUgdmFsdWUgb2YgdGhlIOKAnHRyYW5zcG9ydOKAnSBsZWFmDQo+ID4gdW5kZXIg dGhlIHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbi4NCj4gDQo+IFdoeSBpcyB0aGUgdHJhbnNwb3J0IGxlYWYgbmVlZGVk IGlmIHRoZSBjaG9pY2UgY2FzZXMgaWRlbnRpZnkgdGhlIHRyYW5zcG9ydD8NCj4gV2h5IGRvIGFs bCByZWNlaXZlcnMgb2YgYSBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb24gaGF2ZSB0byB1c2UgdGhlIHNhbWUgdHJhbnNw b3J0Pw0KDQpPbmUgdHJhbnNwb3J0IGZvciBhbGwgcmVjZWl2ZXJzIHdhcyBhIHZvdGVkIFdHIGRl Y2lzaW9uIGF0IElFVEYgMTAxLiAgU29tZSBvZiB0aGUgcmVhc29ucyBmcm9tIHRocmVhZHMgbGlr ZToNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWwtYXJjaGl2ZS93ZWIvbmV0Y29uZi9jdXJyZW50 L21zZzEzODc1Lmh0bWwNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWwtYXJjaGl2ZS93ZWIvbmV0 Y29uZi9jdXJyZW50L21zZzE0ODk5Lmh0bWwgDQoNCmluY2x1ZGU6DQooMSkgU2ltcGxlciBZQU5H IG1vZGVsDQooMikgU2ltcGxlciBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBwb3NzaWJsZSBhcyBhIHNpbmdsZSBj b25maWd1cmVkIHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbiBuZWVkIGJlIGNvbm5lY3RlZCB0byBvbmx5IG9uZSB0cmFu c3BvcnQNCigzKSBTaW1wbGVyIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIGluIHRoYXQgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gZXhw ZWN0YXRpb24gc2V0IG9uIHRoZSBwdWJsaXNoZXIgdGhhdCB0aGVyZSB3aWxsIGJlIG5vIHRyYW5z cG9ydCBsb3NzIGlmIHRoZSB0cmFuc3BvcnQgdHlwZSBpcyByZWNvbmZpZ3VyZWQgZm9yIGEgcGFy dGljdWxhciByZWNlaXZlciBtaWQtc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uLg0KKDQpIFNlcGFyYXRpb24gb2YgaW1w bGVtZW50YXRpb24vdHJvdWJsZXNob290aW5nIGNvbmNlcm5zLCBhcyBvbmx5IG9uZSB0cmFuc3Bv cnQgaXMgaW52b2x2ZWQNCg0KRXJpYw0KDQogDQo+IC9qcw0KPiANCj4gLS0NCj4gSnVlcmdlbiBT Y2hvZW53YWVsZGVyICAgICAgICAgICBKYWNvYnMgVW5pdmVyc2l0eSBCcmVtZW4gZ0dtYkgNCj4g UGhvbmU6ICs0OSA0MjEgMjAwIDM1ODcgICAgICAgICBDYW1wdXMgUmluZyAxIHwgMjg3NTkgQnJl bWVuIHwgR2VybWFueQ0KPiBGYXg6ICAgKzQ5IDQyMSAyMDAgMzEwMyAgICAgICAgIDxodHRwczov L3d3dy5qYWNvYnMtdW5pdmVyc2l0eS5kZS8+DQo= From nobody Thu Jul 26 23:05:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D19130DFE; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:05:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ioSbtYj251j; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB42130DDC; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 5DDEB2386A02; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:05:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:05:07 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Kent Watsen , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180727060507.v7ljp6au4i46ezs3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Kent Watsen , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 06:05:14 -0000 On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:35:04PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > One transport for all receivers was a voted WG decision at IETF 101. Some of the reasons from threads like: > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg13875.html > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14899.html > > include: > (1) Simpler YANG model > (2) Simpler implementation possible as a single configured subscription need be connected to only one transport > (3) Simpler implementation in that there is no expectation set on the publisher that there will be no transport loss if the transport type is reconfigured for a particular receiver mid-subscription. > (4) Separation of implementation/troubleshooting concerns, as only one transport is involved > With the proposed choice construct, I think (1) does not hold, (2) seems unclear (why are multiple identitical subscriptions for different transports cheaper than one subscriptions with multiple transports?) (3) I do not understand (4) I do not understand (since you can easily distinguish the receiver and label log messages by receiver) If we would be serious about simplification to lower the point of entry, we would have only a single receiver for a configured subscription. Allowing multiple receivers as long as they use the same transport seems like an arbitrary CLR. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Jul 26 23:07:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1FB6130DDC; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:07:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lu-tghuqyV_W; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4723130DFE; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id A87802386A48; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:06:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:06:56 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Kent Watsen Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180727060656.hrsg4njv7npfla34@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Kent Watsen , "Eric Voit (evoit)" , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <52EFF12D-DC75-49C2-B887-FB2450616A4C@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <52EFF12D-DC75-49C2-B887-FB2450616A4C@juniper.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 06:07:06 -0000 On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:30:34PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > Why do all receivers of a subscription have to use the same transport? > > This was something that Martin and Eric worked out before we did the first > Last Call. Eric doesn't seem to know the particular reason, other than > Martin seems to think it’s easier. > > Thinking out loud, I can sort-of, but not really, understand the motivation > for wanting to enforce the same encoding (xml, json, etc.) across receivers > and, since some transports may require certain encodings (i.e. netconf-->xml, > coap-->cbor, etc.), it carries that the transports should be the same too? > The encoding can't be the reason because a single transport may allow for different encodings. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 27 04:12:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC1A130F1F; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 04:12:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d9A4mPx4kd4L; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 04:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 696DD130EBB; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 04:11:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3651; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532689919; x=1533899519; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qc4T6n5rwgnV17Q6GLdJUZ4BWcC6EvUFBZRk5RODbhU=; b=T9bA1roP2d8ikdBeUoPFm2MbD7wNlr1HiIhB5k+o7vTijVqOeSrD7Q/O CHFTSS8o+fU6ymTZkDlIaZv5g91QwB16LRDNzYjrunURGyPAwQR3qVVFm Jf6FykLnswgWJCjanmPCdnSc3Gwl9xlthLQmEjVvqX0boJtxv9/NbgG9L 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CJAQDf/Fpb/xbLJq1RBwMZAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBBwEBAQEBhDF/KIN+iGWNPQgklVGBegsYC4QDRgKDGjUXAQIBAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQJtHAyFNgEBAQEDAQEhDwEFNgsOAgsQBQIBAgIJHQICGwwoCAYBDAYCAQG?= =?us-ascii?q?DHAGBfw+tbYEuhF6FYAUFgQaIDoFBP4ERJwyCX4MbAQEBgTQLAQE/JoI6gjU?= =?us-ascii?q?gAoxojSMJjzAGiC2FWYxchViBQwE1gVIzGggbFTuCaYIlFxGDZ4RhhT8+MAG?= =?us-ascii?q?NGoI6AQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,408,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="5437455" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 27 Jul 2018 11:11:57 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.106] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-106.cisco.com [10.63.23.106]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6RBBuYa030300; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:11:56 GMT To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Juergen Schoenwaelder Cc: "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <7a87a2c9-9af6-2555-e661-519e0352d1bf@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 12:11:56 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.63.23.106, dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-106.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:12:02 -0000 Hi Eric, Perhaps you don't need the transport leaf directly under the subscription. One option would be for the standard to state:  - Implementations MUST support multiple receivers with the same transport, and MAY support receivers with different transports. A YANG "multiple-transports" feature could be defined to indicate that the device support receivers with multiple transports (so that the client can determine what is allowed). If the device didn't implement the multiple-transports feature then this could probably be enforced with an must statement under each particular transports, although I'm not convinced that this really matters. Thanks, Rob On 27/07/2018 00:35, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > Hi Juergen, > >> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 26, 2018 6:11 PM >> To: Eric Voit (evoit) >> Cc: Kent Watsen ; yang-doctors@ietf.org; >> netconf@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory >> choice? (was RE: [Netconf] YangPush now) >> >> On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 07:22:40PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: >> >>> For all receivers in a subscription, the selected transport choice >>> case in Kent’s suggestion above MUST match to the value of the >>> “transport” leaf which is one level higher in the tree. I.e.: >>> >>> +--rw subscriptions >>> +--rw subscription* [identifier] >>> +--rw transport transport {configured}? >>> +--rw receivers >>> +--rw receiver* [name] >>> +--rw (transport) >>> +--rw :(NETCONF) >>> | +--rw (NETCONF specific call home parameters) >>> +--rw :(HTTP2) >>> +--rw (HTTP2 specific parameters) >>> >>> (Note on the tree above, I inserted the NETCONF and HTTP2 cases of >>> transport for illustration purposes for the question below. These two >>> cases would actually be incorporated via separate augmentations to the >>> ietf-subscribed-notifications.yang model.) >>> >>> Considering above, It seems difficult to enforce that the transport >>> cases selected under all receivers for a single subscription MUST be >>> identical, and also MUST match to the value of the “transport” leaf >>> under the subscription. >> Why is the transport leaf needed if the choice cases identify the transport? >> Why do all receivers of a subscription have to use the same transport? > One transport for all receivers was a voted WG decision at IETF 101. Some of the reasons from threads like: > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg13875.html > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14899.html > > include: > (1) Simpler YANG model > (2) Simpler implementation possible as a single configured subscription need be connected to only one transport > (3) Simpler implementation in that there is no expectation set on the publisher that there will be no transport loss if the transport type is reconfigured for a particular receiver mid-subscription. > (4) Separation of implementation/troubleshooting concerns, as only one transport is involved > > Eric > > >> /js >> >> -- >> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany >> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > _______________________________________________ > yang-doctors mailing list > yang-doctors@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/yang-doctors From nobody Fri Jul 27 04:30:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A1F1130F3F; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 04:30:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z0VoClrSS5sf; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 04:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6ACE2130F2B; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 04:30:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=22248; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532691019; x=1533900619; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=rwCP+7BJ9TlOvlgeFqPl2c5SO9LjfsiVTqqF5Bs1x/4=; b=Vkv+5g1NPfsP1+GPPrmF47BG5suPh/Gv7Sir7xu8qaUYgWHmbjXVQIDo aRqk5EaUmLqtJTReeZNp9yU36gwlnxcEKhpwaZrGYBWnRgDczzrzo7moH cCc+sov8CztU1CfOcLdV5X1K9NvrIr0VFBEPF9TX1ALrrpsrECC3NatBu s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CLAQDbAVtb/xbLJq1bGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYJXgVp/KIN+iGWNPQgklWWBZgsYAQqEA0YCgxo4FAECAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?CAQECbRwMhTYBAQEBAgEBAQwVCjgJCwULCQIVAw0TCgICJzAGAQwGAgEBFQK?= =?us-ascii?q?DBQGBdwgPki6bR4EuH4Q/hWAFiRmBQT+BEScMgl+DGwEBAYEsARECAYMfgjU?= =?us-ascii?q?gAoxojSMJjzAGgUiEGoJLhVmMXIVYgVghYXEzGggbFTuCaYIlFxGISIU/PjA?= =?us-ascii?q?Bj1QBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,408,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="5441230" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 27 Jul 2018 11:30:14 +0000 Received: from [10.63.23.106] (dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-106.cisco.com [10.63.23.106]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w6RBUEdO032670; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:30:14 GMT To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Kent Watsen , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <187a83c7-1949-7189-f1c7-20135a835ef7@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 12:30:14 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4BD0E05642055145F9F338F8" Content-Language: en-US X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.63.23.106, dhcp-ensft1-uk-vla370-10-63-23-106.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:30:23 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4BD0E05642055145F9F338F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Eric, Please see inline ... On 26/07/2018 20:22, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > Hi YANG doctors, > > We are trying to close on some YANG push drafts.  There is one YANG > related question I would like to bounce off of you before making a > suggested change. > > In the thread: > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg15169.html > > is the following request: > > > From: Kent Watsen, July 26, 2018 1:48 PM > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > Assuming no objections, to close the issues discussed in Montreal, > we're waiting > > > for the following updates: > > > > > >   ... > > >   sub-notif: modify config model to mandate a transport > > What I believe Kent is asking for is that the > ietf-subscribed-notifications.yang model should be enhanced to mandate > that transport specific call home parameters are augmented under the > container “receivers”.  He wants to do this by incorporating a > mandatory choice, with no cases being identified.  Cases would be > added via augmentations in subsequent drafts. > > Specifically, Kent's proposal as per > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg15148.html > > is "to make the augmentation of a "notif" model mandatory (see the '+' > lines below), to ensure that there is always something more than just > a name being configured per receiver. > > container receivers { > > list receiver { > > key "name"; > > min-elements 1; > > leaf name { > > type string; > > } > > +      choice transport { > > +        mandatory true; > > +        description > > +          "Defines the transport-specific configuration data > > +           for the selected transport."; > > +      } " > > At this point there is an open question from Andy on this approach. > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg15149.html > > Andy’s says: > > “The notion of an empty mandatory choice really stretches the > definition of YANG Conformance. This says you cannot possible > implement the SN module without some other module augmenting it. Yet > there is no way in YANG (besides import) to say the module bar needs > to be present if module foo is present.” > I can definitely get Andy's point here.  I.e. that using mandatory as a conformance tool doesn't seem like a great choice. However, I think that another angle is that the configuration for a receiver a transport must always be specified.  This seems like a reasonable constraint, so the mandatory also seems reasonable (regardless that it is specified as an empty choice). > My first question to you is would you object to mandatory choice > statements without corresponding case statements?  If you *do* have an > issue with an empty mandatory choice, we should likely stay with the > current solution. > On balance, no I don't object. > If you see no issue with an empty mandatory choice, I have a second > question for you.    For all receivers in a subscription, the selected > transport choice case in Kent’s suggestion above MUST match to the > value of the “transport” leaf which is one level higher in the tree.  > I.e.: > >     +--rw subscriptions > >        +--rw subscription* [identifier] > > +--rw transport                                  transport {configured}? > >           +--rw receivers > >              +--rw receiver* [name] > >    +--rw (transport) > >       +--rw :(NETCONF) > >         |  +--rw (NETCONF specific call home parameters) > >       +--rw :(HTTP2) > >             +--rw (HTTP2 specific parameters) > > (Note on the tree above, I inserted the NETCONF and HTTP2 cases of > transport for illustration purposes for the question below.  These two > cases would actually be incorporated via separate augmentations to the > ietf-subscribed-notifications.yang model.) > > Considering above, It seems difficult to enforce that the transport > cases selected under all receivers for a single subscription MUST be > identical, and also MUST match to the value of the “transport” leaf > under the subscription. > As per my other email, I think that we should allow multiple transports, so the transport leaf is not required. > Would the YANG doctors have any issue with the structure Kent suggests > above?  If no, would the YANG doctors then mandate that integrity > checks per performed across the receiver case instances under a > subscription?   And if mandated, how might XPATH be encoded > considering transport cases are only added via augmentation? > Personally, I wouldn't mandate an xpath constraint.  There are many real life constraints that are not encoded in YANG models today. If it did need to be enforced then I think that it would be an xpath expression on each transport container.  Perhaps something along the lines of "the count of 'receivers' under the subscription must equal the count of '". Thanks, Rob > Thanks, > > Eric > > > > _______________________________________________ > yang-doctors mailing list > yang-doctors@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/yang-doctors --------------4BD0E05642055145F9F338F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Eric,

Please see inline ...

On 26/07/2018 20:22, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:

Hi YANG doctors,

 

We are trying to close on some YANG push drafts.  There is one YANG related question I would like to bounce off of you before making a suggested change.

 

In the thread:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg15169.html

is the following request:

 

> From: Kent Watsen, July 26, 2018 1:48 PM

> 

> <chair hat on>

> ...

> 

> Assuming no objections, to close the issues discussed in Montreal, we're waiting

> for the following updates:

> 

>   ...

>   sub-notif: modify config model to mandate a transport

 

What I believe Kent is asking for is that the ietf-subscribed-notifications.yang model should be enhanced to mandate that transport specific call home parameters are augmented under the container “receivers”.  He wants to do this by incorporating a mandatory choice, with no cases being identified.  Cases would be added via augmentations in subsequent drafts.

 

Specifically, Kent's proposal as per

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg15148.html

is "to make the augmentation of a "notif" model mandatory (see the '+' lines below), to ensure that there is always something more than just a name being configured per receiver.

 

      container receivers {

        list receiver {

          key "name";

          min-elements 1;

          leaf name {

            type string;

          }

   +      choice transport {

   +        mandatory true;

   +        description

   +          "Defines the transport-specific configuration data

   +           for the selected transport.";

   +      }  "

 

At this point there is an open question from Andy on this approach. 

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg15149.html

 

Andy’s says:

“The notion of an empty mandatory choice really stretches the definition of YANG Conformance. This says you cannot possible implement the SN module without some other module augmenting it. Yet there is no way in YANG (besides import) to say the module bar needs to be present if module foo is present.”


I can definitely get Andy's point here.  I.e. that using mandatory as a conformance tool doesn't seem like a great choice.

However, I think that another angle is that the configuration for a receiver a transport must always be specified.  This seems like a reasonable constraint, so the mandatory also seems reasonable (regardless that it is specified as an empty choice).

 

My first question to you is would you object to mandatory choice statements without corresponding case statements?  If you *do* have an issue with an empty mandatory choice, we should likely stay with the current solution.

On balance, no I don't object.


 

If you see no issue with an empty mandatory choice, I have a second question for you.    For all receivers in a subscription, the selected transport choice case in Kent’s suggestion above MUST match to the value of the “transport” leaf which is one level higher in the tree.  I.e.:

 

    +--rw subscriptions

       +--rw subscription* [identifier]

          +--rw transport                                  transport {configured}?

          +--rw receivers

             +--rw receiver* [name]

             +--rw (transport)

                +--rw :(NETCONF)

                |  +--rw (NETCONF specific call home parameters)

                +--rw :(HTTP2)

                    +--rw (HTTP2 specific parameters)

 

(Note on the tree above, I inserted the NETCONF and HTTP2 cases of transport for illustration purposes for the question below.  These two cases would actually be incorporated via separate augmentations to the ietf-subscribed-notifications.yang model.)

 

Considering above, It seems difficult to enforce that the transport cases selected under all receivers for a single subscription MUST be identical, and also MUST match to the value of the “transport” leaf under the subscription.

As per my other email, I think that we should allow multiple transports, so the transport leaf is not required.

  

 

Would the YANG doctors have any issue with the structure Kent suggests above?  If no, would the YANG doctors then mandate that integrity checks per performed across the receiver case instances under a subscription?   And if mandated, how might XPATH be encoded considering transport cases are only added via augmentation?

Personally, I wouldn't mandate an xpath constraint.  There are many real life constraints that are not encoded in YANG models today.

If it did need to be enforced then I think that it would be an xpath expression on each transport container.  Perhaps something along the lines of "the count of 'receivers' under the subscription must equal the count of '<transport-specific-container or leaf>".

Thanks,
Rob


 

Thanks,

Eric



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--------------4BD0E05642055145F9F338F8-- From nobody Fri Jul 27 08:03:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08388130DED; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:03:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9MlljBso9nuS; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C2E2130DC6; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:03:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3128; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532703803; x=1533913403; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=YBaaBYEIPaZhY3hjJfN3CrmYA5FJzcQhOXt5CTLLtL8=; b=FNwy2hTiuWkVNBJqtVCbPGHo/7afPgOKjs59c/W0qxARRYD8wUhl4rJh WrW16cRU0X+mBnGdiLRHKkWRJ6O5XlBzv/8dUq20THkWrxhSvEolzrfhk 8hAj0DaIagz6mX0VFhzVmF5Xu5RUCL6IjTXV+/gISar/onhTmvCRgA8tG U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DnAQAxM1tb/4ENJK1YAxkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGDIAQqY38oCpg1ggyXSwsjhANGAoJ7ITcVAQIBAQIBAQJ?= =?us-ascii?q?tHAyFNgEBAQMBOj8FCQICAQgOAgUDDREQGxclAgQODYJNTIF3CA+vPoo9BQW?= =?us-ascii?q?IfReBQT+EI4MbAgGBPwEBPxEVhG8gApoLCQKPLI4Okg0CERSBJDMigVJwFYM?= =?us-ascii?q?kgiUXEYNnhGGFPm8BjReBH4EbAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,409,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="426687139" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 27 Jul 2018 15:03:22 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (xch-rtp-015.cisco.com [64.101.220.155]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6RF3MAF020847 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:03:22 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:03:21 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:03:21 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Kent Watsen , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: [Netconf] YangPush now) Thread-Index: AQHUJS2cZg8w9iUFbU+0+L6a3bxq1aSiIzgwgAC1BICAADdbkA== Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:03:21 +0000 Message-ID: <643f32911e094f649c5007c5524112be@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180727060507.v7ljp6au4i46ezs3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180727060507.v7ljp6au4i46ezs3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.155, xch-rtp-015.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:03:25 -0000 Hi Juergen, I am fine either way if we incorporate the proposal or not. Do you have th= e proposed construct is technically acceptable from the perspective of the = YANG doctors? Also below are some thoughts on your other points... > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 27, 2018 2:05 AM >=20 > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:35:04PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > One transport for all receivers was a voted WG decision at IETF 101. > Some of the reasons from threads like: > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg13875.html > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14899.html > > > > include: > > (1) Simpler YANG model > > (2) Simpler implementation possible as a single configured > > subscription need be connected to only one transport > > (3) Simpler implementation in that there is no expectation set on the > publisher that there will be no transport loss if the transport type is > reconfigured for a particular receiver mid-subscription. > > (4) Separation of implementation/troubleshooting concerns, as only one > > transport is involved > > >=20 > With the proposed choice construct, I think >=20 > (1) does not hold, Agree. =20 > (2) seems unclear (why are multiple identitical subscriptions for > different transports cheaper than one subscriptions with multiple > transports?) Deep within the archived discussions, there were implementation considerati= on points made about managing content and security filtering across differe= nt transports and encodings for a single subscription. (E.g., what happens= if filtering happens after encoding and a change is made to the subscripti= on or security filters, how do you ensure the all filtering is applied at t= he same event boundary?) > (3) I do not understand There are a set of implications which can be avoided. For example controll= ers (which are receivers) will be consuming these events. Controller based= applications are less likely to have an expectation that there will no eve= nt replication for a single subscription-id for a publisher when that subsc= ription-id transitions from one transport to another. =20 > (4) I do not understand (since you can easily distinguish the receiver > and label log messages by receiver) >=20 > If we would be serious about simplification to lower the point of entry, = we > would have only a single receiver for a configured subscription. Allowing > multiple receivers as long as they use the same transport seems like an > arbitrary CLR. Yes, this was considered. However there are use cases where identical even= t streams must be sent for receiver redundancy reasons. The current design= can support that possibility. Beyond that, there are deployment proof poi= nts from oc-telemetry.yang that this is a desirable capability. Eric =20 > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 27 08:19:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 516701292AD; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:19:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FzD1_DPBydZn; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E59A130EBD; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id B7D73239B174; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 17:19:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 17:19:22 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Kent Watsen , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180727151922.ds74qzetcxiqg3is@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Kent Watsen , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180727060507.v7ljp6au4i46ezs3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <643f32911e094f649c5007c5524112be@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <643f32911e094f649c5007c5524112be@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:19:27 -0000 On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 03:03:21PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > I am fine either way if we incorporate the proposal or not. Do you have the proposed construct is technically acceptable from the perspective of the YANG doctors? > I understand Andy's comment not as a YANG issue but a more general question whether it is desirable to have a standard without a mandatory to implement standard transport. This goes beyond YANG syntax. > Also below are some thoughts on your other points... > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 27, 2018 2:05 AM > > > > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:35:04PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > > > One transport for all receivers was a voted WG decision at IETF 101. > > Some of the reasons from threads like: > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg13875.html > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14899.html > > > > > > include: > > > (1) Simpler YANG model > > > (2) Simpler implementation possible as a single configured > > > subscription need be connected to only one transport > > > (3) Simpler implementation in that there is no expectation set on the > > publisher that there will be no transport loss if the transport type is > > reconfigured for a particular receiver mid-subscription. > > > (4) Separation of implementation/troubleshooting concerns, as only one > > > transport is involved > > > > > > > With the proposed choice construct, I think > > > > (1) does not hold, > > Agree. > > > (2) seems unclear (why are multiple identitical subscriptions for > > different transports cheaper than one subscriptions with multiple > > transports?) > > Deep within the archived discussions, there were implementation consideration points made about managing content and security filtering across different transports and encodings for a single subscription. (E.g., what happens if filtering happens after encoding and a change is made to the subscription or security filters, how do you ensure the all filtering is applied at the same event boundary?) There is only one standard filtering mechanism (NACM) and that does not filter on the encoding (and it would be a bad layer violation to filter on the encoding). Since encodings may be negotiated by a transport, the single encoding argument falls apart as well. > > (3) I do not understand > > There are a set of implications which can be avoided. For example controllers (which are receivers) will be consuming these events. Controller based applications are less likely to have an expectation that there will no event replication for a single subscription-id for a publisher when that subscription-id transitions from one transport to another. I am still clueless. What is a 'transitions of transport'? My naive understanding of a subscription with a receiver and two transport is that the data goes to both. Or is the idea that these serve has failover backups? But then this may interact with similar features in the call-home documents (I did not check again but I think there were some failover mechanisms in there some time ago). > > (4) I do not understand (since you can easily distinguish the receiver > > and label log messages by receiver) > > > > If we would be serious about simplification to lower the point of entry, we > > would have only a single receiver for a configured subscription. Allowing > > multiple receivers as long as they use the same transport seems like an > > arbitrary CLR. > > Yes, this was considered. However there are use cases where identical event streams must be sent for receiver redundancy reasons. The current design can support that possibility. Beyond that, there are deployment proof points from oc-telemetry.yang that this is a desirable capability. > OK. But then, I have not yet understood why the transports have to be the same in the model. (Which does not preclude that an implementation has a deviation that requires the multiple receivers of a subscription to use the same transport. And all this is only becoming an issue if an implementation does actually support multiple transports.) /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 27 08:33:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1487130E74; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:33:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I9HzH6B2ce7R; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B755C130F8A; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:33:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6762; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532705587; x=1533915187; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=zs/BVFdQxq5q+XMJz0r4JTCrta1XP981UJ6dKCq/0Ns=; b=YgDudwfoxsgXlKbchds4KvmkY1YGnFGSLBH6tjX6Z+a0YUsN79ATtdv9 AuLrtP/ObOYIRBRY0wS7uwVzEG/XFfXwaHSXowY8ds5jDBAUon7sxBkQ5 uJJXtOLOuZjfHZt0JitxTRGGLEKgO+rbqhsWV3BKqMgYEgZ60PyoOTxcx I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DEBQB7Oltb/5RdJa1RBwMZAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBBwEBAQEBg05jfygKg3SUQYIMgzuUEAsYC4QDRgIXgmQhOBQBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAgEBAm0cDIU2AQEBAwEBASEROgsFCQICAQgQBQIBAgIJHQICAhkMCxUICAI?= =?us-ascii?q?EDgUIgxmBdwgPrgyBLoo+BQWBBod3F4FBP4ERgX2BFYMbAQEBgTQLAQE1Cia?= =?us-ascii?q?COoI1IAKMaI0jCQKPLI4Okg0CERSBJDQhgVJwFTuCaYIlFxGDZ4RhhT5vAY0?= =?us-ascii?q?XgR+BGwEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,410,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="427839083" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 27 Jul 2018 15:33:06 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (xch-rtp-013.cisco.com [64.101.220.153]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6RFX6u8007459 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:33:06 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:33:05 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:33:05 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Robert Wilton CC: "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: [Netconf] YangPush now) Thread-Index: AQHUJS2cZg8w9iUFbU+0+L6a3bxq1aSiIzgwgAEKvQD///rvIA== Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:33:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <7a87a2c9-9af6-2555-e661-519e0352d1bf@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7a87a2c9-9af6-2555-e661-519e0352d1bf@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.153, xch-rtp-013.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:33:11 -0000 SGkgUm9iZXJ0LA0KDQo+IEZyb206IFJvYmVydCBXaWx0b24sIEp1bHkgMjcsIDIwMTggNzoxMiBB TQ0KPiANCj4gSGkgRXJpYywNCj4gDQo+IFBlcmhhcHMgeW91IGRvbid0IG5lZWQgdGhlIHRyYW5z cG9ydCBsZWFmIGRpcmVjdGx5IHVuZGVyIHRoZSBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb24uDQo+IA0KPiBPbmUgb3B0 aW9uIHdvdWxkIGJlIGZvciB0aGUgc3RhbmRhcmQgdG8gc3RhdGU6DQo+ICDCoC0gSW1wbGVtZW50 YXRpb25zIE1VU1Qgc3VwcG9ydCBtdWx0aXBsZSByZWNlaXZlcnMgd2l0aCB0aGUgc2FtZQ0KPiB0 cmFuc3BvcnQsIGFuZCBNQVkgc3VwcG9ydCByZWNlaXZlcnMgd2l0aCBkaWZmZXJlbnQgdHJhbnNw b3J0cy4NCj4gDQo+IEEgWUFORyAibXVsdGlwbGUtdHJhbnNwb3J0cyIgZmVhdHVyZSBjb3VsZCBi ZSBkZWZpbmVkIHRvIGluZGljYXRlIHRoYXQgdGhlDQo+IGRldmljZSBzdXBwb3J0IHJlY2VpdmVy cyB3aXRoIG11bHRpcGxlIHRyYW5zcG9ydHMgKHNvIHRoYXQgdGhlIGNsaWVudCBjYW4NCj4gZGV0 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08:36:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC51B130F8D for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:36:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GncvG1ZH2x1D for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78ED0130FDC for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 86BB2B81052; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:36:28 -0700 (PDT) To: rob.enns@gmail.com, mbj@tail-f.com, j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de, andy@yumaworks.com, ibagdona@gmail.com, warren@kumari.net, kwatsen@juniper.net, mjethanandani@gmail.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Cc: jnatale@juniper.net, netconf@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20180727153628.86BB2B81052@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC6241 (5443) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:36:41 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC6241, "Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5443 -------------------------------------- Type: Editorial Reported by: Jonathan Natale Section: 4.4 Original Text ------------- The element is sent in messages if no errors or warnings occurred during the processing of an request, and no data was returned from the operation. Corrected Text -------------- The element is sent in messages if and only if no errors or warnings occurred during the processing of an request, and no data was returned from the operation. Notes ----- I have been informed that an element should not include any errors or warnings, even in the event of the associated operation completing because the error's severity was only at warning level). Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC6241 (draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-10) -------------------------------------- Title : Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) Publication Date : June 2011 Author(s) : R. Enns, Ed., M. Bjorklund, Ed., J. Schoenwaelder, Ed., A. Bierman, Ed. Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Network Configuration Area : Operations and Management Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Fri Jul 27 08:45:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF77130F8D for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:45:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aUkz7hihl3ap for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com (mail-lf1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3636E130EFF for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id n96-v6so3829809lfi.1 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:45:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Stjxk7mWvBuNrPsg/fkzSRNaVlNTAjU/XOymTyHIChw=; b=LS9Pd+1T7VDv2mUua8iJgB/yLJYEF5KguTODhu1jq4galjcHXVcJ4BRYyMl9pxHQth 3+de/WQPGrv9AEGv5Ixad//8sscBf1JanpFz5GA8fDrHOUHARSCBNbZb5VjUsZdGZPhq zW5hHng1jqUzXGWXBsSmlcKQ0eWVQxoohAhk/sccQU/pYUxyecev6o+27cSRABWjJeGZ PgpruusppN+yU//bg7hqIAHE/qcPceggCZz7tEEwihV+lUGc9mSLV4FV+RyZkF3wcG6u R3xGwrKppWRyWH/GUOsCBqiZB9DNYdZUpydiuQLAskQ6SmpsDzHWOlhGrNvaadTHgkoX V4pw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Stjxk7mWvBuNrPsg/fkzSRNaVlNTAjU/XOymTyHIChw=; b=ANCqP8CWiw+PDs1GQNv3/Zo06o1X8cPDvR0TpNMKVHmg6MMulUmiTmSmnNRxJIzD2t 0c6WdDwuvblAHwWdXHZvAJtjFK/xF5V/oDIwdx7Nvb4WGt2b4aqIqv9yD/sxCzcCOVvd EO4/jvkWS6gbQxIPZ0h9SZ36jTHKk5+PqOki8RjFNYBGLdyCGBvCJPDboZ2W7T5xUzWk GHoD7uoKOggfy11B2J0A6AN+7SpAXiPZK2rAmYJ6eP42LMghZWr4Z4U7K4wt9/8iS/uU g+ym8vFNnM0CDQNa6SJA6trqS5Ls25M/31GRgyAw1onZscn8hfDBi7MA3EeNoe2TFtrI 9agA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGfYjqmrM0vImNC8ziJerZAIo0Q2hoG9zgKMCblctFqmgkt1Y0x jWSr3uLS1eGV44Y0kxEJhJOTepw73jvJC3ldJMIo+A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcYM9FF/DbYR9qN8Yvcl9d8mplImCeYHUM7dQzvMdCX7hJRLyKiICCXdc2LCuDRjOuNXIoLRhAmQziug4ibLio= X-Received: by 2002:a19:e1cc:: with SMTP id l73-v6mr4612238lfk.102.1532706329231; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:45:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:45:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180727153628.86BB2B81052@rfc-editor.org> References: <20180727153628.86BB2B81052@rfc-editor.org> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:45:28 -0700 Message-ID: To: RFC Errata System Cc: Rob Enns , Martin Bjorklund , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Ignas Bagdonas , Warren Kumari , Kent Watsen , Mahesh Jethanandani , jnatale@juniper.net, Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004c996f0571fd00ec" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC6241 (5443) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:45:33 -0000 --0000000000004c996f0571fd00ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, The addition of the words "and only if" do not seem to change the semantics. The XSD (page 83) makes it clear that and (, data) cannot both be present. Andy On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 8:36 AM, RFC Errata System < rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> wrote: > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC6241, > "Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)". > > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5443 > > -------------------------------------- > Type: Editorial > Reported by: Jonathan Natale > > Section: 4.4 > > Original Text > ------------- > The element is sent in messages if no errors or > warnings occurred during the processing of an request, and no > data was returned from the operation. > > Corrected Text > -------------- > The element is sent in messages if > and only if > no errors or > warnings occurred during the processing of an request, and no > data was returned from the operation. > > Notes > ----- > I have been informed that an element should not include any errors or > warnings, even in the event of the associated operation completing because > the error's severity was only at warning level). > > Instructions: > ------------- > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > > -------------------------------------- > RFC6241 (draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-10) > -------------------------------------- > Title : Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) > Publication Date : June 2011 > Author(s) : R. Enns, Ed., M. Bjorklund, Ed., J. Schoenwaelder, > Ed., A. Bierman, Ed. > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > Source : Network Configuration > Area : Operations and Management > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG > --0000000000004c996f0571fd00ec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

The addition of the words "and= only if" do not seem to change the semantics.
The XSD (page= 83) makes it clear that <ok/> and (<rpc-error>, data) cannot b= oth be present.


Andy

=

On Fr= i, Jul 27, 2018 at 8:36 AM, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-edit= or.org> wrote:
The followin= g errata report has been submitted for RFC6241,
"Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5443

--------------------------------------
Type: Editorial
Reported by: Jonathan Natale <jna= tale@juniper.net>

Section: 4.4

Original Text
-------------
The <ok> element is sent in <rpc-reply> messages if no errors o= r
warnings occurred during the processing of an <rpc> request, and no data was returned from the operation.

Corrected Text
--------------
The <ok> element is sent in <rpc-reply> messages if
and only if
no errors or
warnings occurred during the processing of an <rpc> request, and no data was returned from the operation.

Notes
-----
I have been informed that an <ok> element should not include any erro= rs or warnings, even in the event of the associated operation completing be= cause the error's severity was only at warning level).

Instructions:
-------------
This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, ple= ase
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party=C2=A0
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.

--------------------------------------
RFC6241 (draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-10)
--------------------------------------
Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Network Confi= guration Protocol (NETCONF)
Publication Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : June 2011
Author(s)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: R. Enns, Ed., M. Bjorkl= und, Ed., J. Schoenwaelder, Ed., A. Bierman, Ed.
Category=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Network Configurat= ion
Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Operations an= d Management
Stream=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IETF
Verifying Party=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IESG

--0000000000004c996f0571fd00ec-- From nobody Fri Jul 27 09:15:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA3A128BAC; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:15:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gNGrV3VwSpJ1; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 265BE130F8E; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id D716E239B7EF; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 18:15:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 18:15:16 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Robert Wilton , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180727161516.wnkkdpvm4smgtork@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Robert Wilton , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <7a87a2c9-9af6-2555-e661-519e0352d1bf@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 16:15:21 -0000 On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 03:33:05PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > I am sympathetic to the possibilities. There are some very cool modeling variants here. Still, per the original thread "YangPush now", a current business objective is to see if we can conclude something with current drafts/scope. As a single transport was the chosen consensus at and after IETF 100, going down this path would reopen some scoping discussions. Note: for historical reasons, the discussion can be listened to at: > https://www.ietf.org/audio/ietf100/ietf100-collyer-20171116-1550.mp3 > (Note: that starting at 57 minutes, you and others voice a preference for 'single' due to simplicity ;-). Also in the recording, you can year me recognize Martin's unvarying position that encoding and transport be both the subscription level, or both be at the receiver level. I.e., I don't see how this gets reopened, and we close soon.) > Still looks like a CLR and somewhat odd once you use a choice for the transports of a receiver (using a choice likely was not yet proposed back then). Looking at the draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt, how do the states of a receiver work with multiple transports? It seems some text in the draft kind of assumes that a receiver has a single transport. It seems dynamic subscriptions always have just one associated transport. Configured subscriptions apparently can have multiple with some constraints and it is unclear how the configured subscriptions states work with multiple transports. I am not sure if I understand things right but it seems to me that a subscription can have multiple receivers and every receiver can have multiple transports. Perhaps simplifying this to 'a subscription can have multiple receivers and every receiver has a single transport (like in the dynamic subscription case) and there are no constraints on the type of transports used by the different receivers' gives you a model that is less complex, easier to clearly define (the state of a receiver becomes simpler to derived from a single transport state) and the model likely still does everything that is practically needed. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 27 10:06:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9389130FF7; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:06:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GfsdeLE05c3z; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14C39130FE9; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:06:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7279; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532711199; x=1533920799; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=8eKHRSfEerpmNwm25c8elxMfzp3ORpJkeF+nsgsyXws=; b=hdgktFTldZNvp8GfaTpAQI+CcDaG8Mr/shbdIhJK2pJfx4YtM7xhPHTp 9dZUZHQhex559eOL9kyX7aVNgXaYscYZ6uLp0L9iF34TrFKhC2GQ/H9IH JYFj1g1AKZ0ZTOL1rsrWbZWXNz1JYR+JShOORaJjODwUzmAWTki3xZTPl I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DnAQDOUFtb/5JdJa1YAxkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGDIAQqY38oCpg1ggyXSwsjhANGAoJ7ITcVAQIBAQIBAQJ?= =?us-ascii?q?tHAyFNgEBAQMBOj8FCQICAQgOAgUDDREQGxclAgQODYJNTIF3CA+vX4o+BQW?= =?us-ascii?q?IfReBQT+BEYMSgxsCAYE/AQE/ERWEbyACmgsJAo8sjg6SDQIRFIEkMyKBUnA?= =?us-ascii?q?VgySCJRcRg2eEYYU+bwGNF4EfgRsBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,410,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="149518967" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 27 Jul 2018 17:06:38 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (xch-rtp-013.cisco.com [64.101.220.153]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6RH6cMm030589 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 27 Jul 2018 17:06:38 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 13:06:37 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 13:06:37 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Kent Watsen , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: [Netconf] YangPush now) Thread-Index: AQHUJS2cZg8w9iUFbU+0+L6a3bxq1aSiIzgwgAC1BICAADdbkIAAY4AA///A6XA= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 17:06:37 +0000 Message-ID: <44256bc2840d4519aec9698770658c94@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180727060507.v7ljp6au4i46ezs3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <643f32911e094f649c5007c5524112be@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180727151922.ds74qzetcxiqg3is@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180727151922.ds74qzetcxiqg3is@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.153, xch-rtp-013.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 17:06:43 -0000 > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 27, 2018 11:19 AM >=20 > On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 03:03:21PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > I am fine either way if we incorporate the proposal or not. Do you hav= e > the proposed construct is technically acceptable from the perspective of = the > YANG doctors? > > >=20 > I understand Andy's comment not as a YANG issue=20 > but a more general > question whether it is desirable to have a standard without a mandatory t= o > implement standard transport. This goes beyond YANG syntax. Agree this is a relevant question. Kent has made a "chair hat" request on = this (with Andy on the 'to' line): https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg15169.html=20 directly after Andy said he wanted to complete the current drafts in their = current form: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg15167.html=20 So I am hoping that thread can be used to close on the mandatory-to-impleme= nt question if there are concerns there. > > Also below are some thoughts on your other points... > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 27, 2018 2:05 AM > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:35:04PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > > > > > One transport for all receivers was a voted WG decision at IETF 101= . > > > Some of the reasons from threads like: > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail- > archive/web/netconf/current/msg13875.htm > > > > l > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail- > archive/web/netconf/current/msg14899.htm > > > > l > > > > > > > > include: > > > > (1) Simpler YANG model > > > > (2) Simpler implementation possible as a single configured > > > > subscription need be connected to only one transport > > > > (3) Simpler implementation in that there is no expectation set on > > > > the > > > publisher that there will be no transport loss if the transport type > > > is reconfigured for a particular receiver mid-subscription. > > > > (4) Separation of implementation/troubleshooting concerns, as only > > > > one transport is involved > > > > > > > > > > With the proposed choice construct, I think > > > > > > (1) does not hold, > > > > Agree. > > > > > (2) seems unclear (why are multiple identitical subscriptions for > > > different transports cheaper than one subscriptions with multiple > > > transports?) > > > > Deep within the archived discussions, there were implementation > > consideration points made about managing content and security > > filtering across different transports and encodings for a single > > subscription. (E.g., what happens if filtering happens after encoding > > and a change is made to the subscription or security filters, how do > > you ensure the all filtering is applied at the same event boundary?) >=20 > There is only one standard filtering mechanism (NACM) and that does not > filter on the encoding (and it would be a bad layer violation to filter o= n the > encoding). Since encodings may be negotiated by a transport, the single > encoding argument falls apart as well. Martin has been adamant over the course of several years that the configura= tion of both transport and encoding be at the same level of the subscriptio= n (either at the receiver level, or the subscription level.) Perhaps there= are legitimate platform implementation considerations. Previous versions = of this debate can be seen at: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg13875.html In the end, nobody has ever asserted use cases which demand that transports= must be able to vary for a configured subscription. So the previous WG co= nsensus on this requirement seems reasonable despite the fact that the YANG= modeling might end up more complicated (should Kent's empty choice stateme= nt proposal be deemed technically valid).=20 > > > (3) I do not understand > > > > There are a set of implications which can be avoided. For example > controllers (which are receivers) will be consuming these events. Contro= ller > based applications are less likely to have an expectation that there will= no > event replication for a single subscription-id for a publisher when that > subscription-id transitions from one transport to another. >=20 > I am still clueless. What is a 'transitions of transport'?=20 E.g., If somebody modifies a configured receiver from NETCONF to HTTP2. Ye= s, the same issue could be asserted if you change the transport at the subs= cription level so that all receivers of all a subscription transition at on= ce. But at least you won't run into issues where there are there are trans= ient deltas for a single subscription in the events delivered to different = receivers of that same subscription. =20 > My naive > understanding of a subscription with a receiver and two transport is that > the data goes to both. Or is the idea that these serve has failover backu= ps? > But then this may interact with similar features in the call-home documen= ts > (I did not check again but I think there were some failover mechanisms in > there some time ago). In discussions with Kent, there is a difference between failover (as covere= d by call-home), and dual live (which would be multiple receivers of the sa= me subscription). =20 > > > (4) I do not understand (since you can easily distinguish the receive= r > > > and label log messages by receiver) > > > > > > If we would be serious about simplification to lower the point of > > > entry, we would have only a single receiver for a configured > > > subscription. Allowing multiple receivers as long as they use the > > > same transport seems like an arbitrary CLR. > > > > Yes, this was considered. However there are use cases where identical > event streams must be sent for receiver redundancy reasons. The current > design can support that possibility. Beyond that, there are deployment > proof points from oc-telemetry.yang that this is a desirable capability. > > >=20 > OK. But then, I have not yet understood why the transports have to be the > same in the model. (Which does not preclude that an implementation has a > deviation that requires the multiple receivers of a subscription to use t= he > same transport. And all this is only becoming an issue if an implementati= on > does actually support multiple transports.) Before IETF 100, transports were allowed to vary by receiver. At the time= , there seemed reasonable reasons to do this. However previous attempts t= o see if there were actual use cases for such flexibility ended up with nob= ody chiming in. https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg13875.html This is one of the reasons I didn't have an issue when the WG voted to simp= lify things by configuring the transport at the higher level of the subscri= ption. So if nothing else, there is still implementation simplicity as the transp= ort will only be populated once across the entire subscription. Eric /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 27 10:37:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D7F0130E20; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:37:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I0Ax_6X3QwhS; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55916130FF7; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:37:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4437; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532713054; x=1533922654; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=soLCIXi5Yk3qlu9sBciHVSczcvZGKPOTUPQPgyIe2dI=; b=R1yy/IAyZLEDYagtdyA2ityBlZyB9GHOlBKXTBWSEJO8Nt0yvTXhfhED cS6Lw1o/p4RNvBzhEmJZo+olBZY9MXOWHnCUx+T3FZacIss0M+TkXmS6X YggOpUqq+Xm/2maKAHZaIy58aC+pioT614OcA9KgaYo4rvM3Stdx/MbrI 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DmAQBLV1tb/5hdJa1YAxkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGDTmN/KAqYNYIMlVGBegsjhEkCgnshNhYBAgEBAgEBAm0?= =?us-ascii?q?cDIU2AQEBAwE6PwUJAgIBCA4CBQIBDREQGxcdCAIEDgUIgxmBdwgPr0WKPgU?= =?us-ascii?q?FiH0XgUE/gw6BFYMbAoE5SCaEbyACmgsJAo8sjg6SDQIRFIEkJAcqgVJwFYM?= =?us-ascii?q?kgk2DZ4RhhT5vAY0IgS6BGwEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,410,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="433109842" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 27 Jul 2018 17:37:33 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-010.cisco.com (xch-rtp-010.cisco.com [64.101.220.150]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6RHbWBH030572 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 27 Jul 2018 17:37:33 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-010.cisco.com (64.101.220.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 13:37:32 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 13:37:32 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: [Netconf] YangPush now) Thread-Index: AQHUJS2cZg8w9iUFbU+0+L6a3bxq1aSiIzgwgAEKvQD///rvIIAAWdEA///LsUA= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 17:37:32 +0000 Message-ID: <5ca9eb9cb9a34d819340374263ad696d@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <7a87a2c9-9af6-2555-e661-519e0352d1bf@cisco.com> <20180727161516.wnkkdpvm4smgtork@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180727161516.wnkkdpvm4smgtork@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.150, xch-rtp-010.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 17:37:37 -0000 > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 27, 2018 12:15 PM > To: Eric Voit (evoit) > Cc: Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco) > ; yang-doctors@ietf.org; netconf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory > choice? (was RE: [Netconf] YangPush now) >=20 > On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 03:33:05PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > I am sympathetic to the possibilities. There are some very cool modeli= ng > variants here. Still, per the original thread "YangPush now", a current > business objective is to see if we can conclude something with current > drafts/scope. As a single transport was the chosen consensus at and afte= r > IETF 100, going down this path would reopen some scoping discussions. > Note: for historical reasons, the discussion can be listened to at: > > https://www.ietf.org/audio/ietf100/ietf100-collyer-20171116-1550.mp3 > > (Note: that starting at 57 minutes, you and others voice a preference > > for 'single' due to simplicity ;-). Also in the recording, you can > > year me recognize Martin's unvarying position that encoding and > > transport be both the subscription level, or both be at the receiver > > level. I.e., I don't see how this gets reopened, and we close soon.) > > >=20 > Still looks like a CLR and somewhat odd once you use a choice for the > transports of a receiver (using a choice likely was not yet proposed back > then). Yes, the empty mandatory choice was not proposed then. And honestly, I wo= uld be absolutely fine if the empty mandatory choice is not included in the= final model. =20 My intent in starting this thread is that I just want to give a fair hearin= g for Kent on whether his suggestion is technically acceptable. While I do= n't see Kent's proposal as being especially pretty, it might be able to bri= ng us to closure on what is perhaps the last technical issue for the curren= t drafts. > Looking at the draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt, how do= the > states of a receiver work with multiple transports? It seems some text in > the draft kind of assumes that a receiver has a single transport. It seem= s > dynamic subscriptions always have just one associated transport. > Configured subscriptions apparently can have multiple with some > constraints and it is unclear how the configured subscriptions states wor= k > with multiple transports. Figure 9 defines receiver state specific just for a single configured subsc= ription from the perspective of a publisher. It is valid to have a receive= r handle multiple subscriptions using different transports. > I am not sure if I understand things right but it seems to me that a > subscription can have multiple receivers and every receiver can have > multiple transports. Perhaps simplifying this to 'a subscription can have > multiple receivers and every receiver has a single transport (like in the > dynamic subscription case) There is no reason a single dynamic subscriber can't have independent subsc= riptions using different transports to the same publisher. =20 > and there are no constraints on the type of > transports used by the different receivers' gives you a model that is les= s > complex, easier to clearly define (the state of a receiver becomes simple= r to > derived from a single transport state) and the model likely still does > everything that is practically needed. Controllers will spin up and tear down multiple independent subscriptions w= ithin a single transport session. This will be driven by applications sitt= ing on controllers having different data needs. One example of this would = be creating a replay subscription to retrieve events dropped. Also based = on previous threads, there is also a need for the first configured subscrip= tion from a receive to initiate a separate transport session (even if a see= mingly acceptable one is already is in place). This avoids the possibility= of some over-zealous dynamic subscription application from closing down a = transport session subsequently used by a configured subscription. Eric =20 > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Jul 27 10:42:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE466130FF7 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:42:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fmp1cVotsN9U for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55ABC130DF6 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id f1-v6so5113947ljc.9 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:42:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NkRpHmyi2caXhFLi6CQl+4070OVswUFEmPGn9V1rX9A=; b=q8RSlLs4ATMAh8v+Z7ymkfb5R5a1Em7zovL4/b1Jdp8qusfUGp2sUNumlyPWhwD4zp EftD+zH2+DPC83X+FW3tm3nWUy/Zbn8zg6tCzocrLah838ejnxkpFTndC5pWkMpKeMRZ R6a+NlCiZUS0sdEn2FNV5BQOodlCKOr4qsHWW5rOp9GIwwmP8RQ05794uzeXWvdFq6EU vplesPJTVHA3BFacYUFfbf7siXFyLy+BU59Kvv7BZ6UbGVDq5hX27m5YsoTKdYxFsnxX +9qScpyTJxcJZSvTgR0Y1S1zwD7Yt5jqpSofnfMKwTi/bxhhfLEuBV8KqgXufEHgsrg0 OYrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NkRpHmyi2caXhFLi6CQl+4070OVswUFEmPGn9V1rX9A=; b=Frts67vGqYjbU2SrmOvRj+ClH7JQcf4dS/AK5a40vpR8Ejf184ctPRegwRlSL1j6dm 0rWf4CC3KwA/DAuCLhsR63ZJsfhg5nqn1rKUQcAWa8emXAWc2oyI3nHlSz+DizzKnny6 VeE9PQiM7Itihan86s33cffeqzx5k2fWSjhRXfp6uM23ngSnBhKUmVObwVhiGOUAEiJ2 enUb19QZ3xWKxxe36/tu+B0Gx6N5J2zei/Rc+iusAl/n795HnG/VR1Y8Qj75DAgriwNH SMJtNAfkFGHlqJfwgQfYkqOQq86/qlyloTQhk9PgI0xnDf9BLKxKzJT9XZDN3YDazQIP AXWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlG7hwdkgIaAcA0VaIGHC2hoLKQF3WoIT1WUgvhWz9cImj1S/5PJ mJCoDaxIOFdm+xzSR2r7T4pPv6crIuxJj8VOEql+bw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcXAXErSXGdeGIoPhaFpnYdP4TaPdoElyfutwYcWGz2OjBPkm1kmtFenSsfDn/nzzha0JOfmoWGyRbgv0Y2fr4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:97c8:: with SMTP id m8-v6mr696104ljj.52.1532713362477; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:42:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5ca9eb9cb9a34d819340374263ad696d@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <7a87a2c9-9af6-2555-e661-519e0352d1bf@cisco.com> <20180727161516.wnkkdpvm4smgtork@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <5ca9eb9cb9a34d819340374263ad696d@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:42:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008366bc0571fea322" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 17:42:48 -0000 --0000000000008366bc0571fea322 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I would prefer to not add empty mandatory choices to any YANG module. An empty choice is bad enough. In 2119 terms, using this container is a SHOULD, not a MUST. Andy On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) < evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 27, 2018 12:15 PM > > To: Eric Voit (evoit) > > Cc: Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco) > > ; yang-doctors@ietf.org; netconf@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory > > choice? (was RE: [Netconf] YangPush now) > > > > On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 03:33:05PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > > > I am sympathetic to the possibilities. There are some very cool > modeling > > variants here. Still, per the original thread "YangPush now", a current > > business objective is to see if we can conclude something with current > > drafts/scope. As a single transport was the chosen consensus at and > after > > IETF 100, going down this path would reopen some scoping discussions. > > Note: for historical reasons, the discussion can be listened to at: > > > https://www.ietf.org/audio/ietf100/ietf100-collyer-20171116-1550.mp3 > > > (Note: that starting at 57 minutes, you and others voice a preference > > > for 'single' due to simplicity ;-). Also in the recording, you can > > > year me recognize Martin's unvarying position that encoding and > > > transport be both the subscription level, or both be at the receiver > > > level. I.e., I don't see how this gets reopened, and we close soon.) > > > > > > > Still looks like a CLR and somewhat odd once you use a choice for the > > transports of a receiver > (using a choice likely was not yet proposed back > > then). > > Yes, the empty mandatory choice was not proposed then. And honestly, I > would be absolutely fine if the empty mandatory choice is not included in > the final model. > > My intent in starting this thread is that I just want to give a fair > hearing for Kent on whether his suggestion is technically acceptable. > While I don't see Kent's proposal as being especially pretty, it might be > able to bring us to closure on what is perhaps the last technical issue for > the current drafts. > > > Looking at the draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt, how > do the > > states of a receiver work with multiple transports? It seems some text in > > the draft kind of assumes that a receiver has a single transport. It > seems > > dynamic subscriptions always have just one associated transport. > > Configured subscriptions apparently can have multiple with some > > constraints and it is unclear how the configured subscriptions states > work > > with multiple transports. > > Figure 9 defines receiver state specific just for a single configured > subscription from the perspective of a publisher. It is valid to have a > receiver handle multiple subscriptions using different transports. > > > I am not sure if I understand things right but it seems to me that a > > subscription can have multiple receivers and every receiver can have > > multiple transports. Perhaps simplifying this to 'a subscription can have > > multiple receivers and every receiver has a single transport (like in the > > dynamic subscription case) > > There is no reason a single dynamic subscriber can't have independent > subscriptions using different transports to the same publisher. > > > and there are no constraints on the type of > > transports used by the different receivers' gives you a model that is > less > > complex, easier to clearly define (the state of a receiver becomes > simpler to > > derived from a single transport state) and the model likely still does > > everything that is practically needed. > > Controllers will spin up and tear down multiple independent subscriptions > within a single transport session. This will be driven by applications > sitting on controllers having different data needs. One example of this > would be creating a replay subscription to retrieve events dropped. Also > based on previous threads, there is also a need for the first configured > subscription from a receive to initiate a separate transport session (even > if a seemingly acceptable one is already is in place). This avoids the > possibility of some over-zealous dynamic subscription application from > closing down a transport session subsequently used by a configured > subscription. > > Eric > > > /js > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --0000000000008366bc0571fea322 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I would prefer to not add empty man= datory choices to any YANG module.
An empty choice is bad enough.= In 2119 terms, using this container is a SHOULD, not a MUST.

Andy


On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 10:37 AM, = Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org= > wrote:
> From: Juergen Sch= oenwaelder, July 27, 2018 12:15 PM
> To: Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cis= co.com>
> Cc: Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)
> <rwilton@cisco.com>; yang-doctors@ietf.org; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory
> choice? (was RE: [Netconf] YangPush now)
>
> On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 03:33:05PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> >
> > I am sympathetic to the possibilities.=C2=A0 There are some very = cool modeling
> variants here.=C2=A0 Still, per the original thread "YangPush now= ", a current
> business objective is to see if we can conclude something with current=
> drafts/scope.=C2=A0 As a single transport was the chosen consensus at = and after
> IETF 100, going down this path would reopen some scoping discussions.<= br> > Note: for historical reasons, the discussion can be listened to at: > > https://www.ietf.org/a= udio/ietf100/ietf100-collyer-20171116-1550.mp3
> > (Note: that starting at 57 minutes, you and others voice a prefer= ence
> > for 'single' due to simplicity ;-).=C2=A0 Also in the rec= ording, you can
> > year me recognize Martin's unvarying position that encoding a= nd
> > transport be both the subscription level, or both be at the recei= ver
> > level.=C2=A0 I.e., I don't see how this gets reopened, and we= close soon.)
> >
>
> Still looks like a CLR and somewhat odd once you use a choice for the<= br> > transports of a receiver
=C2=A0(using a choice likely was not yet proposed back
> then).

Yes, the empty mandatory choice was not proposed then.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And hone= stly, I would be absolutely fine if the empty mandatory choice is not inclu= ded in the final model.=C2=A0

My intent in starting this thread is that I just want to give a fair hearin= g for Kent on whether his suggestion is technically acceptable.=C2=A0 While= I don't see Kent's proposal as being especially pretty, it might b= e able to bring us to closure on what is perhaps the last technical issue f= or the current drafts.

> Looking at the draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-14.txt= , how do the
> states of a receiver work with multiple transports? It seems some text= in
> the draft kind of assumes that a receiver has a single transport. It s= eems
> dynamic subscriptions always have just one associated transport.
> Configured subscriptions apparently can have multiple with some
> constraints and it is unclear how the configured subscriptions states = work
> with multiple transports.

Figure 9 defines receiver state specific just for a single configured subsc= ription from the perspective of a publisher.=C2=A0 It is valid to have a re= ceiver handle multiple subscriptions using different transports.

> I am not sure if I understand things right but it seems to me that a > subscription can have multiple receivers and every receiver can have > multiple transports. Perhaps simplifying this to 'a subscription c= an have
> multiple receivers and every receiver has a single transport (like in = the
> dynamic subscription case)

There is no reason a single dynamic subscriber can't have independent s= ubscriptions using different transports to the same publisher.=C2=A0

>=C2=A0 and there are no constraints on the type of
> transports used by the different receivers' gives you a model that= is less
> complex, easier to clearly define (the state of a receiver becomes sim= pler to
> derived from a single transport state) and the model likely still does=
> everything that is practically needed.

Controllers will spin up and tear down multiple independent subscriptions w= ithin a single transport session.=C2=A0 This will be driven by applications= sitting on controllers having different data needs.=C2=A0 One example of t= his would be creating a replay subscription to retrieve events dropped.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Also based on previous threads, there is also a need for the firs= t configured subscription from a receive to initiate a separate transport s= ession (even if a seemingly acceptable one is already is in place).=C2=A0 T= his avoids the possibility of some over-zealous dynamic subscription applic= ation from closing down a transport session subsequently used by a configur= ed subscription.

Eric

> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs U= niversity Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1= | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= ;https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
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--0000000000008366bc0571fea322-- From nobody Fri Jul 27 11:02:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F17130DDD; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:02:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EATA6s2j2bxW; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4B8A130DEE; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108157.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w6RHwciN029263; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:02:42 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=zbGZHsZfxMIbauwj9/CqwUeayAjPfXrgQAckdOMjqmY=; b=Zj8F8RNb8HQgCKm+X8oG9enALrWN1A7y8AXoQhPKy+XmdUI/0GDM78EWILITjsYbCYc+ JiGrE8P+UQZTxAS3maT2CmV1hY4p38Q0SOhgcdpJLQTzIDQfZ+P3sqT7/HCLhdZzXvGK 5/J31GnlJSZp9C2h13Ebw50PjJ7qYHPvhiajffclLt4G1zPlv+sxBuTXWL+mgrRzkOhO 2FQo6iK1LI6c7sgpOr3XnHOKikGraj77Ka9Cir3CBFllTNoshqCOQG2aW4qYC30ej1NW ssV4aVwAYtZykpAA6MpelqTFxVRxJmUrwHZcfpT+26y3eO3XV3lSrTopNR7j3WApFtgJ Hw== Received: from nam02-sn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam02lp0019.outbound.protection.outlook.com [216.32.180.19]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2kg2fvrkp9-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:02:42 -0700 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.200.153) by BYAPR05MB4936.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.235.207) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.995.11; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 18:02:40 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::84c5:999c:9159:d416]) by BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::84c5:999c:9159:d416%2]) with mapi id 15.20.0995.019; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 18:02:40 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: Andy Bierman , "Eric Voit (evoit)" CC: "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? 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bh=/KcAS6WkLUqjFSfsXIa/+As9w3EWSfsxza3121t4DdM=; b=PGWadzrHRY509yhvrY8zTviy+KAC2g67++gWE2C7VlNmjzU11s0vRJD3Qu/uIZ6fix ekQE6bzNYLeRxisKvf7+uhrLD4r+4e64PEkCPb2K3fvHGUcLW9gv9c8TQQFx2rQImxxp vdDioTEMZ/oVx6UgckI+ucd5NYe9PflTaMuxgEbhXpiO7+DdBSqMCrlfXrXRj9WqyQ2A nID8fdN1DmPQWPRCDg3Ta9OQDCZEVGqbdX6BIOyEmzBhhmkEAaGvS5qsVMVD3t5g4Xrp GaS/6qxk17JQqm4hYzV25VlqCHsQza8Ia5ZLk00JpeZHGWw/xzRIMuqQ5n3JwZcc4EEQ W9ow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/KcAS6WkLUqjFSfsXIa/+As9w3EWSfsxza3121t4DdM=; b=taBOfAqqG1ZqG3KBusoTJjr0dUEX1wT5I5HsatLK5CCL4Mg4oKVyhJzOlroULDChHT 9O5k9TmLPDAdC0uDZLIoMi9y2xgcL0SqokyDR88O0UtNlIj7pPo2FfEgC2j1DpVTPEnT C9COg3gAq9RwS4MSCX2C/MdlP6/BKV6SBHdKN1n/MSRx8hYSczp4ZLUBhnJ4TSj0DJDP V3NUGMoE/T4qZkMhk82R03toPVBmwzIPrcXpDN5suILZgdA9XtiDSHJOeji51bHNyoDe T6jZxyVpjtlTnLBImkzvldbalmzR5+Z8oLqNc/yHCjdtCnhAa60TE82nrITIfugrhrS5 IBtQ== 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Message-ID: To: Kent Watsen Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a489c30571ff0f43" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 18:13:02 -0000 --000000000000a489c30571ff0f43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > > > I would prefer to not add empty mandatory choices to any YANG module. > > > An empty choice is bad enough. In 2119 terms, using this container is a > > > SHOULD, not a MUST. > > > > Moving past the syntax-level discussion: > > > > 1) do you agree that a transport MUST be configured? > > > > - if not, then how is this a configuration model when half the > config is > > hidden behind vendor magic? In my view, this pushes the limit of > > reasonableness. > Yes, but I do not agree it helps to force that configuration to be in this choice-stmt. A client developer is going to need the vendor YANG module before doing any work so they will see exactly where that config is located. > > > 2) do you agree that at most only one transport can be configured per > "receiver"? > > > > - this is perhaps arguable but, if needed, then I'd push for a > list with > > min-elements 1. That said, why support multiple transports > under > > a single "receiver", when multiple "receiver" instances can be > created, > > one for each? Additionally, it muddies what the text means by > > "receiver state", as then there would have to be state per > transport. > Yes -- I don't even like multiple receivers so the added complexity is not justified. (I would have preferred 1 receiver per subscription with the ability to use another subscription config by reference. IMO the state data is cleaner and the design is cleaner, but that's not what we have) > > > Kent // contributor > > > Andy --000000000000a489c30571ff0f43 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

> I would prefer to not add empty mandatory choic= es to any YANG module.

> An empty choice is bad enough. In 2119 terms, u= sing this container is a

> SHOULD, not a MUST.

=C2=A0

Moving past the syntax-level discussion:

=C2=A0

1) do you agree that a transport MUST be configured?=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0- if not, then = how is this a configuration model when half the config is

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0hidden behind vendor magic?=C2=A0 In my view, this pushes the limit of

=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0rea= sonableness.


Yes, but I do not agree it helps to force that configuration t= o be in this choice-stmt.
A client developer is going to need the= vendor YANG module before doing any work
so they will see exactl= y where that config is located.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 2) do you agree that at most only one transpo= rt can be configured per "receiver"?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0- this is= perhaps arguable but, if needed, then I'd push for a list with

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0min-elements 1.=C2=A0=C2=A0 That said, why support multiple transp= orts under

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2= =A0a single "receiver", when multiple "receiver" instan= ces can be created,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0one for each?=C2=A0=C2=A0 Additionally, it muddies what the text means b= y

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0"receiver state", as then there would have to be state p= er transport.



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Fri, 27 Jul 2018 20:27:29 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 16:27:28 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 16:27:28 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Kent Watsen , "Andy Bierman (andy@yumaworks.com)" CC: "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? (was RE: YangPush now) Thread-Index: AQHUJd3mUJIkjRHDLUiZWlMutL6UIKSjn1YA///VOSCAAAA+MA== Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 20:27:28 +0000 Message-ID: <2292ed599a8b45af99c29d8972854e04@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1b58e76f527442c3a0fa34437b9f0cd4@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <7a87a2c9-9af6-2555-e661-519e0352d1bf@cisco.com> <20180727161516.wnkkdpvm4smgtork@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <5ca9eb9cb9a34d819340374263ad696d@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <93889648-B180-49A2-9C8E-D2B0FAE127A9@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.155, xch-rtp-015.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? 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Received: from localhost (h-155-4-133-90.NA.cust.bahnhof.se [155.4.133.90]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DEEE71AE018A; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:29:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:30:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180729.173002.216260545658738911.mbj@tail-f.com> To: kwatsen@juniper.net Cc: rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, andy@yumaworks.com, evoit@cisco.com, timjenki@cisco.com, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: References: <9d2e34e6-fc40-9c4b-1be5-cbee3ff8f89c@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 15:30:07 -0000 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Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6F09130E6D; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-155-4-133-90.NA.cust.bahnhof.se [155.4.133.90]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1DFF01AE018A; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:41:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:41:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180729.174114.96329883777062758.mbj@tail-f.com> To: kwatsen@juniper.net Cc: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de, evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, yang-doctors@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <52EFF12D-DC75-49C2-B887-FB2450616A4C@juniper.net> References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180726221120.bv3mtlitoqqov2zm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <52EFF12D-DC75-49C2-B887-FB2450616A4C@juniper.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 15:41:18 -0000 S2VudCBXYXRzZW4gPGt3YXRzZW5AanVuaXBlci5uZXQ+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiBIaSBKdWVyZ2VuLA0K PiANCj4gDQo+ID4gV2h5IGlzIHRoZSB0cmFuc3BvcnQgbGVhZiBuZWVkZWQgaWYgdGhlIGNob2lj ZSBjYXNlcyBpZGVudGlmeSB0aGUgdHJhbnNwb3J0PyANCj4gDQo+IE15IHVuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmcg aXMgdGhhdCB0aGlzIGxlYWYgaXMgbmVlZGVkIChleGNsdXNpdmVseT8pIHRvIHN1cHBvcnQgdGhl DQo+IGVuZm9yY2VtZW50IHRoYXQgYWxsIHRoZSB0cmFuc3BvcnRzIGZvciBhIGdpdmVuIHN1YnNj cmlwdGlvbiB1c2UgdGhlIHNhbWUNCj4gdHJhbnNwb3J0Lg0KPiANCj4gSSd2ZSBhbHNvIGJlZW4g YXNraW5nIGFib3V0IHRoaXMsIHBhcnRseSBmcm9tIHRoZSAiZGlmZmljdWx0bHkgdG8gZW5mb3Jj ZSINCj4gcmVhc29uIEVyaWMgbWVudGlvbnMgKHRob3VnaCBzZWUgdGhlICJ3aGVuIiBzdGF0ZW1l bnQgaW4gRXJpYydzIDcvMjAgZW1haWwNCj4gd2hlcmUgaGUgcmVzb2x2ZXMgdGhpcywgSSB0aG91 Z2h0KSwgYnV0IGFsc28gZnJvbSBhICJhcmUgd2UgbWFraW5nIHRoaXMNCj4gbW9yZSBkaWZmaWN1 bHQgdGhhbiBuZWVkZWQ/IiBwZXJzcGVjdGl2ZS4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiA+IFdoeSBkbyBhbGwgcmVj ZWl2ZXJzIG9mIGEgc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uIGhhdmUgdG8gdXNlIHRoZSBzYW1lIHRyYW5zcG9ydD8N Cj4gDQo+IFRoaXMgd2FzIHNvbWV0aGluZyB0aGF0IE1hcnRpbiBhbmQgRXJpYyB3b3JrZWQgb3V0 IGJlZm9yZSB3ZSBkaWQgdGhlIGZpcnN0DQo+IExhc3QgQ2FsbC4gIEVyaWMgZG9lc24ndCBzZWVt IHRvIGtub3cgdGhlIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgcmVhc29uLCBvdGhlciB0aGFuIA0KPiBNYXJ0aW4gc2Vl bXMgdG8gdGhpbmsgaXTigJlzIGVhc2llci4NCg0KTm87IEkgcGVyc29uYWxseSBhbHNvIHByZWZl ciBhIGRlc2lnbiB3aGVyZSBlYWNoIHJlY2VpdmVyIGhhcyBpdHMgb3duDQp0cmFuc3BvcnQgKyBl bmNvZGluZy4gIFRoZSBvcmlnaW5hbCBtb2RlbCBoYWQgYSBjb21tb24gImVuY29kaW5nIiBmb3IN CmFsbCByZWNlaXZlcnMsIGFuZCB0aGVuIGEgcmVjZWl2ZXItc3BlY2lmaWMgdHJhbnNwb3J0IC0g SSB0aGluayB0aGlzDQppcyBldmVuIHdvcnNlLCBhbmQgc3VnZ2VzdGVkIHRvIGhhdmUgdHJhbnNw b3J0ICsgZW5jb2RpbmcgZGVmaW5lZA0KdG9nZXRoZXIgcHJlZmVycmFibHkgcmVjZWl2ZXItc3Bl Y2lmYyBvciBlbHNlIGNvbW1vbiBmb3IgYWxsDQpyZWNlaXZlcnMuDQoNCklmIHRoZSBXRyBub3cg YmVsaWV2ZXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgdHJhbnNwb3J0ICsgZW5jb2Rpbmcgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGRvbmUgcGVy DQpyZWNlaXZlciwgdGhpcyBzaG91bGQgYmUgZmFpcmx5IGVhc3kgdG8gY2hhbmdlLg0KDQoNCj4g VGhpbmtpbmcgb3V0IGxvdWQsIEkgY2FuIHNvcnQtb2YsIGJ1dCBub3QgcmVhbGx5LCB1bmRlcnN0 YW5kIHRoZSBtb3RpdmF0aW9uDQo+IGZvciB3YW50aW5nIHRvIGVuZm9yY2UgdGhlIHNhbWUgZW5j b2RpbmcgKHhtbCwganNvbiwgZXRjLikgYWNyb3NzIHJlY2VpdmVycw0KPiBhbmQsIHNpbmNlIHNv bWUgdHJhbnNwb3J0cyBtYXkgcmVxdWlyZSBjZXJ0YWluIGVuY29kaW5ncyAoaS5lLiBuZXRjb25m LS0+eG1sLA0KPiBjb2FwLS0+Y2JvciwgZXRjLiksIGl0IGNhcnJpZXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgdHJhbnNw b3J0cyBzaG91bGQgYmUgdGhlIHNhbWUgdG9vPw0KPiANCj4gV2hhdCBJIGRvbid0IGxpa2UgYWJv dXQgdGhpcyBhcmd1bWVudCBpczoNCj4gDQo+IDEpIEl0J3Mgbm90IHVzZXItZnJpZW5kbHkuICBJ ZiBhIHNlcnZlciByZWFsbHkgZG9lcyBoYXZlIHRvIHNlbmQgc2ltaWxhciANCj4gICAgc3Vic2Ny aXB0aW9ucyB0byBhIHNldCByZWNlaXZlcnMgdXNpbmcgZGlmZmVyZW50IHRyYW5zcG9ydHMgYW5k L29yIA0KPiAgICBlbmNvZGluZ3MsIHdlJ3ZlIGludHJvZHVjZWQgd2hhdCBsb29rcyBsaWtlIGFu IGFydGlmaWNpYWwgbmVlZCB0byANCj4gICAgZHVwbGljYXRlIHRoZSBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIGZv ciBlYWNoIHVuaXF1ZSB0cmFuc3BvcnQrZW5jb2RpbmcgDQo+ICAgIGNvbWJpbmF0aW9uLg0KPiAN Cj4gMikgSSBkb24ndCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBpc3N1ZS4gIE15IHZp ZXcgaXMgdGhhdCBzbGlnaHRseQ0KPiAgICBjbGV2ZXIgY29kZSB0aGF0IGNhY2hlcyBlbmNvZGlu Z3MgdXNlZCBjb3VsZCBkbyB0aGlzIGluIG9uZSBsb29wLiAgDQo+ICAgIEhlcmUncyBzb21lIHBz ZXVkby1weXRob25pYyBjb2RlOg0KPiANCj4gICAgc2VuZC1ub3RpZmljYXRpb24tdG8tcmVjZWl2 ZXJzKHJlY2VpdmVycywgbmF0aXZlLW5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbik6DQo+ICAgICAgeG1sLW5vdGlmaWNh dGlvbj1Ob25lDQo+ICAgICAganNvbi1ub3RpZmljYXRpb249Tm9uZQ0KPiAgICAgIGZvciByZWNl aXZlciBpbiByZWNlaXZlcnM6DQo+ICAgICAgICBpZiByZWNlaXZlci5lbmNvZGluZyBpcyBYTUw6 DQo+ICAgICAgICAgIGlmIHhtbC1ub3RpZmljYXRpb24gaXMgTm9uZToNCj4gICAgICAgICAgICB4 bWwtbm90aWZpY2F0aW9uID0gdG8teG1sKG5hdGl2ZS1ub3RpZmljYXRpb24pDQo+ICAgICAgICAg IHJlY2VpdmVyLnNlbmQoeG1sLW5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbikNCj4gICAgICAgIGlmIHJlY2VpdmVyLmVu Y29kaW5nIGlzIEpTT046DQo+ICAgICAgICAgIGlmIGpzb24tbm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIGlzIE5vbmU6 DQo+ICAgICAgICAgICAganNvbi1ub3RpZmljYXRpb24gPSB0by1qc29uKG5hdGl2ZS1ub3RpZmlj YXRpb24pDQo+ICAgICAgICAgIHJlY2VpdmVyLnNlbmQoanNvbi1ub3RpZmljYXRpb24pDQo+IA0K PiAgICANCj4gS2VudCAvLyBhcyBhIGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9yDQoNCg0KL21hcnRpbg0K From nobody Sun Jul 29 08:41:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6986130EBF for ; 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Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:41:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:41:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180729.173002.216260545658738911.mbj@tail-f.com> References: <9d2e34e6-fc40-9c4b-1be5-cbee3ff8f89c@cisco.com> <20180729.173002.216260545658738911.mbj@tail-f.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:41:24 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Bjorklund Cc: Kent Watsen , Robert Wilton , "Eric Voit (evoit)" , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , Netconf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007ecd470572252d66" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 15:41:39 -0000 --0000000000007ecd470572252d66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > Hi, > > Hi think the plan to finish and publish SN + YP + netconf-notifs w/o > support for configured subscriptions is ok. I assume that as soon as > these documents are sent to the IESG for publication, the WG > immediately starts to work on configured subscriptions for netconf. > > However, I would have preferred to remove configured subscriptions > from SN and YP, b/c I beleive that this would be faster (essentially > echoing what Balazs wrote in the first email in this thread). If we > keep configured subscriptions in these docs, they will take additional > time to finish b/c the text needs clarifications. > > I agree > See more inline below. > > Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > > > I think that we're iterating towards consensus. > > From a conformance perspective: > > > > Dynamic: MUST > > Configured: MAY (but also NOT POSSIBLE until a transport model is > defined) > > > > Notes: > > - Vendor-specific transport models can be used until > > standard-models are developed. > > - No mandatory-to-implement transport will exist; thus, > > interoperability is at risk. > > I don't think this is true. This is a generic model designed to be > used wih a variety of transports. Even if we had one or more > transport models ready, noone would have been mandatory. > This WG is very server-centric. It shows up most often in the way that identityref leafs are standardized. YANG just says any identity with matching bases is valid, but this is no help to a client developer. Consider the possibility that the client developer is not looking for opportunities to rewrite the same functionality over and over, but rather looking for opportunities to reuse the same code across all servers. Supposedly standards make that possible. That is possible when there is at least one mandatory-to-implement API that is complete enough to be useful. Andy > > > - Unclear how a future *bis* could introduce a > > mandatory-to-implement transport. > > > > I *think* that this is okay. At least it seems similar to RESTCONF > > not having a mandatory-to-implement encoding. Any objections? - > > speak up now! > > > > Assuming no objections, to close the issues discussed in Montreal, > > we're waiting for the following updates: > > > > yang-push: > > sub-notif: modify config model to mandate a transport > > The transport leaf is already marked as mandatory. I think this is > good enough. > > > netconf-notif: modify to only reflect netconf for dynamic > subscriptions > > Agreed. > > > resconf-notif: modify to only reflect restconf for dynamic > subscriptions > > and also only regard *restconf* (not > http/x[.y]) > > I would prefer to wait with this docuement; it hasn't been discussed > much, and I haven't seen a single review on the ML. > > > > > or (my preference, if possible): > > > > yang-push: > > sub-notif: modify config model to mandate a transport=E2=80=A6and, s= omehow, > > modified to not require a "notif" draft at > > all for just dynamic > > subscriptions (shouldn't it just be normal NC/RC behavior > at > > that point, and thus nothing to define?) > > This is not possible, since for NETCONF, the elements > will now be sent after an , rather than just > . There are similar issues for RESTCONF. > > > /martin > > > > For folks that want these drafts to move faster, we look forward to > > your thorough reviews. Please note that simply writing "I support" > > or equivalent doesn't help ensure that the text is accurate (witness > > what happened last time with these drafts). > > > > There are nearly 150 pages here. Realistically, at 7.5 pages/hour (a > > medium-to-light edit, which I hope is all that is needed at this > > point), complete reviews might take two and a half days, > > uninterrupted. The chairs would like to see a few such reviews, > > either after the updates to these drafts have been posted, or when > > the next (and hopefully final) Last Call is issued. > > > > Thanks, > > Kent > > > > > > On 7/26/18, 5:15 AM, "Netconf on behalf of Robert Wilton" < > netconf-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of > rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org o.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: > > > > > > I basically agree with Andy. > > > > I appreciate from the comments that the configured subscriptions is not > usable using standards transports yet, but it still seems that it would b= e > more invasive to rip configured subscriptions out at this point in time. = I > think as a WG we really want to get this document published otherwise it > will be obsolete before it even has an RFC number. We can fix up the > configured subscriptions afterwards, and then publish a bis version that > puts everything together. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > On 26/07/2018 04:21, Andy Bierman wrote: > > Hi, > > > > IMO there is a good enough plan in place to complete the configured > subscriptions. > > The co-authors have done enough revisions. It is time to finish the > drafts. > > > > We should let vendors experiment and also try to create a standard > binary protocol. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) > wrote: > > Hi Juergen, > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 23, 2018 10:14 AM > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 06:47:48PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > Hi Juergen, > > > > > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 20, 2018 6:14 AM > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 09:41:00AM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote= : > > > > > > > > > > > That is what I was hoping would be accomplished with the text: > > > > > > > > > > > > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, > port, and > > > > > > security credentials are left up to implementers of this > > > > > > specification. For implementation guidance and a YANG model > for > > > this > > > > > > function, please look to > > > > > > [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server]. > > > > > > > > > > I said this is to vague for me to understand. Repeating the point= er > > > > > does not help me to understand. If this I-D has a clear solution, > > > > > why not put it in place? > > > > > > > > The recommended solution is for vendors to augment in their own > > > leafrefs into existing vendor specific call home configurations. > > > Alternatively, solutions can be integrated within non-YANG based > > > configuration structures. This is how our configured subscription > > > implementation works. > > > > > > > > To clarify the recommended solution, I have updated the reference > above > > > to: > > > > > > > > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, port, a= nd > > > security credentials are left up to implementers of this > specification.. For > > > implementation guidance on how a leafref might constructed to > accomplish > > > this function, consider the following augmentation which would need t= o > be > > > made if the necessary connection parameters are maintained with ietf- > > > netconf-client.yang as specified by [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf- > netconf-client- > > > server]. > > > > > > > > import ietf-netconf-client { prefix ncc; } > > > > import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } > > > > import ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications { prefix nsn; } > > > > > > > > augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receiv= er" > { > > > > when 'derived-from(../../../transport, "nsn:netconf")'; > > > > leaf netconf-endpoint { > > > > type leafref { > > > > path "/ncc:netconf-client/ncc:initiate/ncc:netconf- > > > server/ncc:endpoints/ncc:endpoint/ncc:name"; > > > > } > > > > description > > > > "Points to a remote NETCONF client intended to support a > particular > > > configured subscription."; > > > > } > > > > } > > > > > > So why do we create a _standard_ that says take the other standard an= d > > > then roll your own non-standard module to make them work together? > > > > My reading of your request was to make the current draft text less > vague. Hopefully providing an example augmentation based on a reference= d > standard-in-progress removes this ambiguity. > > > > I would hope that when the other standard is ready, it doesn't take > something non-standard to bind them. There are earlier threads on how th= is > might be done. > > > > > > > > To cover this, there is the following text in Section 5 of > > > > > > draft-ietf-netconf- > > > > > netconf-event-notifications: > > > > > > > > > > > > publisher SHOULD place the receiver into the > > > > > > "timeout" state after a predetermined number of either faile= d > call > > > > > > home attempts or NETCONF sessions remotely terminated by the > > > > > > receiver. > > > > > > > > > > > > Until NETCONF transport with a receiver has been established= , > and a > > > > > > "subscription-started" state change notification has been > > > > > > successfully sent for a configured subscription, that > subscription's > > > > > > receiver MUST remain in either the "connecting" or the > "timeout" > > > > > > state. > > > > > > > > > > <-- call home --> > > > > > C: > > > > > S: > > > > > S: > > > > > <-- session terminated --> > > > > > > > > > > The server believes 'notification has been successfully sent'. T= he > > > > > other alternative would be a client that throws away notification > > > > > messages not > > > > > expected: > > > > > > > > > > <-- call home --> > > > > > C: > > > > > S: > > > > > S: // -> discarded > > > > > S: // -> discarded > > > > > S: // -> discarded > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > Both scenarioes are problematic. > > > > > > > > Agree that there are these two scenarios. > > > > > > > > The first scenario isn't elegant, but I don't see it as > problematic. Per SN, > > > transport loss places all receivers back into their connecting state. > And the > > > NETCONF-Notif text quoted above shows that multiple session > terminations > > > places the subscription into "timeout" so that something can figure o= ut > > > what is wrong. > > > > > > > > The second scenario requires that NETCONF Call home is successfully > > > configured with the right credentials on both sides of the connection= , > and > > > that the receiver's NETCONF client implementation is unable to > terminate a > > > session receiving unwanted notification traffic. This is a concern, > but an > > > implementer at least has some protections by controlling the call hom= e > > > connectivity parameters tied to a specific receiver. (See continue > reasoning > > > below) > > > > > > There is nothing in NETCONF that requires a client to terminate a > session if > > > the client receives an unexpected message. The control of call home > > > parameters is no answer (first this is out of hands for the > implementor and > > > second the problem is likely a misconfiguration in the first place > that leads > > > to something not useful). I do not think your answers provide a > solution - I > > > am not interested in justifications. > > > > A solution based on the correct call home parameter configuration does > work.. But other than that, I agree with you: the current NETCONF > configured subscription solution does take some valid error conditions ou= t > of the hands of implementers, and places them in the hands of operators. > > > > The biggest question I see is whether implementers want to do the > leg-work needed to building out the client capability advertisement > capability to protect against these failure scenarios. It would be grea= t > if NETCONF implementers signaled they are ready to pick this up. > > > > > > > This is why I suggested that there needs to be some mechanism tha= t > > > > > tells the server that the client is willing to receive configured > > > > > subscriptions before the server throws messages at > > > > > the client. You will find differnet ideas in the mailing list > archive. > > > > > > > > In talking about this issue in the past, suggestions were made that > the > > > NETCONF client could advertise its capabilities for supporting > configured > > > subscriptions as part of the hello exchange. And that can be a > partial(*) > > > solution to the problem. However there was pushback to this based on > > > NETCONF client to server implementations not typically exchanging and > > > interpreting the results of NETCONF client asserted capabilities. > > > > > > > > (*) the reason it is partial is that even if the client advertises > support for > > > NETCONF configured subscriptions, there is still the possibility that > > > something goes wrong with the receiver's receiving process with the > second > > > scenario above. In which case you still need to have a way to > terminate the > > > incoming notification stream by pulling down the NETCONF session. > Still, > > > there are obviously benefits of client capability signaling as an > extra layer of > > > misconfiguration protections included. > > > > > > Simply pushing data to a receiver before checking that the receiver i= s > willing > > > and able to consume the data is in my view not good protocol design. > There > > > are cases where this is unavoidable but here we do have a client and > server > > > talking to each other that can do better. > > > > > > > Looking at what is in the v10 draft, there are some protections for > both > > > your scenarios above. But certainly it is not robust. And certainl= y > having > > > the client advertise configured receiver support would be nice, but > this > > > would require more development. As based on the amount of > > > development, we used the design philosophy of "it is better to start > with > > > an 80% solution than a 120% solution :-)." > > > > > > There was also another proposal, namely to have the client request th= e > > > start of notifications (like you would do with RC and SSE). I do not > buy the > > > 80% solution argument for an excuse of poor protocol design. > > > > The other proposal is absolutely a valid way to do this. And as Andy > and others have pointed out, the current dynamic > RPC can be kicked off by such a process. > > > > However the call flow has more error conditions. As a result, three > years ago during scoping of the current suite of IETF subscription drafts= , > this proposal was determined to be out-of-scope. This decision was not > necessarily a bad choice as I have seen proprietary non-NETCONF configure= d > subscription deployments thrive without a publisher requesting that a > client invoke the . > > > > As a result of the decision several years ago, no one has proposed an > IETF standards based call flow to invoke a client based > . It would be excellent if someone wanted to > propose a draft for this. > > > > > > I agree that the current protection could have an improved > description. > > > So I have placed the following text into the NETCONF-Notif security > > > considerations section: > > > > > > > > " For a configured subscription, if NETCONF call home has been > configured > > > with the working credentials, yet that the receiver's NETCONF client > > > implementation is both unable to process inbound notifications and > unable > > > to terminate a session receiving unwanted traffic, then the receiver > may > > > receive unwanted event records. To minimize this risk, a publisher > > > implementation should use dedicated call home connectivity port numbe= rs > > > and credentials specific to configured subscriptions. This will > minimize the > > > chance that an unplanned NETCONF receiver will receive configured > > > subscription notifications unexpectedly." > > > > > > Well, I would rather fix the issue than pushing the problem ultimatel= y > to > > > operators. > > > > Your position is a valid one for sure. I have not yet heard of > operator wanting to attempt these more robust configuration protection > mechanisms yet. And as noted above, this is not a key use case for the > deployments I am seeing yet. > > > > Eric > > > > > /js > > > > > > -- > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German= y > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.jacobs- > 2Duniversity.de_&d=3DDwMDaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzo= CI&r=3D > 9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3DPN9cAf8_ > 9XKIE3CIKONsYfaQZNHYnom2GY-4Ru1wZpc&s=3DmzX6_2ZrzEpIEW1D4vVLFrCNSlKInzy2c= wB > ddGrlbhg&e=3D>> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Netconf mailing list > > > > Netconf@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ > mailman_listinfo_netconf&d=3DDwMDaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3DPN9cA= f8_ > 9XKIE3CIKONsYfaQZNHYnom2GY-4Ru1wZpc&s=3D9Ys6soB849hZqMrZoA- > PCyOMrNucuiZgMhIgoT8Tsbw&e=3D> > > > > > --0000000000007ecd470572252d66 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Martin Bjorklund <= ;mbj@tail-f.com>= wrote:
Hi,

Hi think the plan to finish and publish SN + YP + netconf-notifs w/o
support for configured subscriptions is ok.=C2=A0 I assume that as soon as<= br> these documents are sent to the IESG for publication, the WG
immediately starts to work on configured subscriptions for netconf.

However, I would have preferred to remove configured subscriptions
from SN and YP, b/c I beleive that this would be faster (essentially
echoing what Balazs wrote in the first email in this thread).=C2=A0 If we keep configured subscriptions in these docs, they will take additional
time to finish b/c the text needs clarifications.


I agree
=C2=A0
See more inline below.

Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net<= /a>> wrote:
> <chair hat on>
>
> I think that we're iterating towards consensus.
> From a conformance perspective:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dynamic: MUST
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Configured: MAY (but also NOT POSSIBLE until a tran= sport model is defined)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Notes:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Vendor-specific transport models can be us= ed until
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0standard-models are developed.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- No mandatory-to-implement transport will e= xist; thus,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interoperability is at risk.

I don't think this is true.=C2=A0 This is a generic model designed to b= e
used wih a variety of transports.=C2=A0 Even if we had one or more
transport models ready, noone would have been mandatory.



opportunities to rewrite the same functionality over and over, but
=
rather looking for opportunities to reuse the same code across all ser= vers.
Supposedly standards make that possible.

That is possible when there is at least one mandatory-to-implement A= PI that
is complete enough to be useful.




Andy



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Unclear how a future *bis* could introduce= a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mandatory-to-implement transport. >
> I *think* that this is okay. At least it seems similar to RESTCONF
> not having a mandatory-to-implement encoding.=C2=A0 Any objections? -<= br> > speak up now!
>
> Assuming no objections, to close the issues discussed in Montreal,
> we're waiting for the following updates:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 yang-push: <unsure if any changes are needed here><= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sub-notif: modify config model to mandate a transport

The transport leaf is already marked as mandatory.=C2=A0 I think this is good enough.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 netconf-notif: modify to only reflect netconf for dynamic= subscriptions

Agreed.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 resconf-notif: modify to only reflect restconf for dynami= c subscriptions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and also only regard *restc= onf* (not http/x[.y])

I would prefer to wait with this docuement; it hasn't been discussed much, and I haven't seen a single review on the ML.

>
> or (my preference, if possible):
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 yang-push: <unsure if any changes are needed here><= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sub-notif: modify config model to mandate a transport=E2= =80=A6and, somehow,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0modified to not = require a "notif" draft at
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0all for just dyn= amic
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subscriptions (s= houldn't it just be normal NC/RC behavior at
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that point, and = thus nothing to define?)

This is not possible, since for NETCONF, the <notification> elements<= br> will now be sent after an <establish-subscription>, rather than just<= br> <create-subscription>.=C2=A0 There are similar issues for RESTCONF.

/martin


> For folks that want these drafts to move faster, we look forward to > your thorough reviews.=C2=A0 Please note that simply writing "I s= upport"
> or equivalent doesn't help ensure that the text is accurate (witne= ss
> what happened last time with these drafts).
>
> There are nearly 150 pages here. Realistically, at 7.5 pages/hour (a > medium-to-light edit, which I hope is all that is needed at this
> point), complete reviews might take two and a half days,
> uninterrupted.=C2=A0 The chairs would like to see a few such reviews,<= br> > either after the updates to these drafts have been posted, or when
> the next (and hopefully final) Last Call is issued.
>
> Thanks,
> Kent
>
>
> On 7/26/18, 5:15 AM, "Netconf on behalf of Robert Wilton" &l= t;netconf-bounces@ietf.org&= lt;mailto:netconf-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:rwilton=3D4= 0cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>
>
> I basically agree with Andy.
>
> I appreciate from the comments that the configured subscriptions is no= t usable using standards transports yet, but it still seems that it would b= e more invasive to rip configured subscriptions out at this point in time.= =C2=A0 I think as a WG we really want to get this document published otherw= ise it will be obsolete before it even has an RFC number.=C2=A0 We can fix = up the configured subscriptions afterwards, and then publish a bis version = that puts everything together.
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>
>
> On 26/07/2018 04:21, Andy Bierman wrote:
> Hi,
>
> IMO there is a good enough plan in place to complete the configured su= bscriptions.
> The co-authors have done enough revisions. It is time to finish the dr= afts.
>
> We should let vendors experiment and also try to create a standard bin= ary protocol.
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com<mailto:evoit@cisco.com>> wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
>
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 23, 2018 10:14 AM
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 06:47:48PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote= :
> > > Hi Juergen,
> > >
> > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 20, 2018 6:14 AM
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 09:41:00AM +0000, Eric Voit (ev= oit) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > That is what I was hoping would be accomplished wi= th the text:
> > > > >
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The method of identifying the targete= d receiver IP address, port, and
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 security credentials are left up to i= mplementers of this
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 specification.=C2=A0 For implementati= on guidance and a YANG model for
> > this
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 function, please look to
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-= client-server].
> > > >
> > > > I said this is to vague for me to understand. Repeating= the pointer
> > > > does not help me to understand. If this I-D has a clear= solution,
> > > > why not put it in place?
> > >
> > > The recommended solution is for vendors to augment in their = own
> > leafrefs into existing vendor specific call home configurations.<= br> > > Alternatively, solutions can be integrated within non-YANG based<= br> > > configuration structures.=C2=A0 This is how our configured subscr= iption
> > implementation works.
> > >
> > > To clarify the recommended solution, I have updated the refe= rence above
> > to:
> > >
> > > The method of identifying the targeted receiver IP address, = port, and
> > security credentials are left up to implementers of this specific= ation..=C2=A0 For
> > implementation guidance on how a leafref might constructed to acc= omplish
> > this function, consider the following augmentation which would ne= ed to be
> > made if the necessary connection parameters are maintained with i= etf-
> > netconf-client.yang as specified by [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-= netconf-client-
> > server].
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0import ietf-netconf-client { prefix ncc; }
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn= ; }
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0import ietf-netconf-subscribed-notification= s { prefix nsn; }
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscrip= tion/sn:receivers/sn:receiver" {
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when 'derived-from(../../../transport,= "nsn:netconf")';
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf netconf-endpoint {
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type leafref {
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0path "/ncc:netconf-cli= ent/ncc:initiate/ncc:netconf-
> > server/ncc:endpoints/ncc:endpoint/ncc:name";
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0description
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Points to a remote NE= TCONF client intended to support a particular
> > configured subscription.";
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0}
> >
> > So why do we create a _standard_ that says take the other standar= d and
> > then roll your own non-standard module to make them work together= ?
>
> My reading of your request was to make the current draft text less vag= ue.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Hopefully providing an example augmentation based on a refe= renced standard-in-progress removes this ambiguity.
>
> I would hope that when the other standard is ready, it doesn't tak= e something non-standard to bind them.=C2=A0 There are earlier threads on h= ow this might be done.
>
> > > > > To cover this, there is the following text in Sect= ion 5 of
> > > > > draft-ietf-netconf-
> > > > netconf-event-notifications:
> > > > >
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 publisher SHOULD place the receiver i= nto the
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "timeout" state after a pre= determined number of either failed call
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 home attempts or NETCONF sessions rem= otely terminated by the
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 receiver.
> > > > >
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Until NETCONF transport with a receiv= er has been established, and a
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "subscription-started" stat= e change notification has been
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 successfully sent for a configured su= bscription, that subscription's
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 receiver MUST remain in either the &q= uot;connecting" or the "timeout"
> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 state.
> > > >
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<-- call home -->
> > > >=C2=A0 C: <hello>
> > > >=C2=A0 S: <hello>
> > > >=C2=A0 S: <notification>
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<-- session terminated -->
> > > >
> > > > The server believes 'notification has been successf= ully sent'.=C2=A0 The
> > > > other alternative would be a client that throws away no= tification
> > > > messages not
> > > > expected:
> > > >
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<-- call home -->
> > > >=C2=A0 C: <hello>
> > > >=C2=A0 S: <hello>
> > > >=C2=A0 S: <notification> // -> discarded
> > > >=C2=A0 S: <notification> // -> discarded
> > > >=C2=A0 S: <notification> // -> discarded
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[...]
> > > >
> > > > Both scenarioes are problematic.
> > >
> > > Agree that there are these two scenarios.
> > >
> > > The first scenario isn't elegant, but I don't see it= as problematic.=C2=A0 Per SN,
> > transport loss places all receivers back into their connecting st= ate.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And the
> > NETCONF-Notif text quoted above shows that multiple session termi= nations
> > places the subscription into "timeout" so that somethin= g can figure out
> > what is wrong.
> > >
> > > The second scenario requires that NETCONF Call home is succe= ssfully
> > configured with the right credentials on both sides of the connec= tion, and
> > that the receiver's NETCONF client implementation is unable t= o terminate a
> > session receiving unwanted notification traffic.=C2=A0 This is a = concern, but an
> > implementer at least has some protections by controlling the call= home
> > connectivity parameters tied to a specific receiver.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= (See continue reasoning
> > below)
> >
> > There is nothing in NETCONF that requires a client to terminate a= session if
> > the client receives an unexpected message. The control of call ho= me
> > parameters is no answer (first this is out of hands for the imple= mentor and
> > second the problem is likely a misconfiguration in the first plac= e that leads
> > to something not useful). I do not think your answers provide a s= olution - I
> > am not interested in justifications.
>
> A solution based on the correct call home parameter configuration does= work..=C2=A0 But other than that, I agree with you: the current NETCONF co= nfigured subscription solution does take some valid error conditions out of= the hands of implementers, and places them in the hands of operators.
>
> The biggest question I see is whether implementers want to do the leg-= work needed to building out the client capability advertisement capability = to protect against these failure scenarios.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It would be great i= f NETCONF implementers signaled they are ready to pick this up.
>
> > > > This is why I suggested that there needs to be some mec= hanism that
> > > > tells the server that the client is willing to receive = configured
> > > > subscriptions before the server throws <notification= > messages at
> > > > the client. You will find differnet ideas in the mailin= g list archive.
> > >
> > > In talking about this issue in the past, suggestions were ma= de that the
> > NETCONF client could advertise its capabilities for supporting co= nfigured
> > subscriptions as part of the hello exchange.=C2=A0 And that can b= e a partial(*)
> > solution to the problem.=C2=A0 However there was pushback to this= based on
> > NETCONF client to server implementations not typically exchanging= and
> > interpreting the results of NETCONF client asserted capabilities.=
> > >
> > > (*) the reason it is partial is that even if the client adve= rtises support for
> > NETCONF configured subscriptions, there is still the possibility = that
> > something goes wrong with the receiver's receiving process wi= th the second
> > scenario above.=C2=A0 In which case you still need to have a way = to terminate the
> > incoming notification stream by pulling down the NETCONF session.= =C2=A0 Still,
> > there are obviously benefits of client capability signaling as an= extra layer of
> > misconfiguration protections included.
> >
> > Simply pushing data to a receiver before checking that the receiv= er is willing
> > and able to consume the data is in my view not good protocol desi= gn. There
> > are cases where this is unavoidable but here we do have a client = and server
> > talking to each other that can do better.
> >
> > > Looking at what is in the v10 draft, there are some protecti= ons for both
> > your scenarios above.=C2=A0 But certainly it is not robust.=C2=A0= =C2=A0And certainly having
> > the client advertise configured receiver support would be nice, b= ut this
> > would require more development.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As based on the amoun= t of
> > development,=C2=A0 we used the design philosophy of "it is b= etter to start with
> > an 80% solution than a 120% solution :-)."
> >
> > There was also another proposal, namely to have the client reques= t the
> > start of notifications (like you would do with RC and SSE). I do = not buy the
> > 80% solution argument for an excuse of poor protocol design.
>
> The other proposal is absolutely a valid way to do this.=C2=A0 And as = Andy and others have pointed out, the current dynamic <establish-subscri= ption> RPC can be kicked off by such a process.
>
> However the call flow has more error conditions.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As a resu= lt, three years ago during scoping of the current suite of IETF subscriptio= n drafts, this proposal was determined to be out-of-scope.=C2=A0 This decis= ion was not necessarily a bad choice as I have seen proprietary non-NETCONF= configured subscription deployments thrive without a publisher requesting = that a client invoke the <establish-subscription>.
>
> As a result of the decision several years ago, no one has proposed an = IETF standards based call flow to invoke a client based <establish-subsc= ription>.=C2=A0 It would be excellent if someone wanted to propose a dra= ft for this.
>
> > > I agree that the current protection could have an improved d= escription.
> > So I have placed the following text into the NETCONF-Notif securi= ty
> > considerations section:
> > >
> > > " For a configured subscription, if NETCONF call home h= as been configured
> > with the working credentials, yet that the receiver's NETCONF= client
> > implementation is both unable to process inbound notifications an= d unable
> > to terminate a session receiving unwanted traffic, then the recei= ver may
> > receive unwanted event records.=C2=A0 To minimize this risk, a pu= blisher
> > implementation should use dedicated call home connectivity port n= umbers
> > and credentials specific to configured subscriptions.=C2=A0 This = will minimize the
> > chance that an unplanned NETCONF receiver will receive configured=
> > subscription notifications unexpectedly."
> >
> > Well, I would rather fix the issue than pushing the problem ultim= ately to
> > operators.
>
> Your position is a valid one for sure.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have not yet hear= d of operator wanting to attempt these more robust configuration protection= mechanisms yet.=C2=A0 And as noted above, this is not a key use case for t= he deployments I am seeing yet.
>
> Eric
>
> > /js
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jac= obs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus R= ing 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
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--0000000000007ecd470572252d66-- From nobody Sun Jul 29 08:54:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9385130E6D; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:53:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P8cH1QhIOrwV; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60026130DC8; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-155-4-133-90.NA.cust.bahnhof.se [155.4.133.90]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 91BFE1AE018A; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:53:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:53:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180729.175356.1841285666617255654.mbj@tail-f.com> To: evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org Cc: kwatsen@juniper.net, yang-doctors@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? 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dCBpbnRlZ3JpdHkNCj4gY2hlY2tzIHBlciBwZXJmb3JtZWQgYWNyb3NzIHRoZSByZWNlaXZlciBj YXNlIGluc3RhbmNlcyB1bmRlciBhDQo+IHN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbj8gIEFuZCBpZiBtYW5kYXRlZCwg aG93IG1pZ2h0IFhQQVRIIGJlIGVuY29kZWQgY29uc2lkZXJpbmcNCj4gdHJhbnNwb3J0IGNhc2Vz IGFyZSBvbmx5IGFkZGVkIHZpYSBhdWdtZW50YXRpb24/DQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rcywN Cj4gDQo+IEVyaWMNCg== From nobody Sun Jul 29 08:59:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D54E1130E6D; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:59:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P551b0pb-edY; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DB27130E69; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-155-4-133-90.NA.cust.bahnhof.se [155.4.133.90]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AFB101AE018A; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:59:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:59:24 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180729.175924.796235000508288738.mbj@tail-f.com> To: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Cc: evoit@cisco.com, yang-doctors@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <20180727151922.ds74qzetcxiqg3is@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <20180727060507.v7ljp6au4i46ezs3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <643f32911e094f649c5007c5524112be@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180727151922.ds74qzetcxiqg3is@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 15:59:27 -0000 Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 03:03:21PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > I am fine either way if we incorporate the proposal or not. Do you have the proposed construct is technically acceptable from the perspective of the YANG doctors? > > > > I understand Andy's comment not as a YANG issue but a more general question > whether it is desirable to have a standard without a mandatory to implement > standard transport. This goes beyond YANG syntax. I agree. But I think it is ok, since we cannot mandate NETCONF or RESTCONF (and note that RESTCONF doesn't even mandate an encoding...) > > Also below are some thoughts on your other points... > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 27, 2018 2:05 AM > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:35:04PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > > > > > One transport for all receivers was a voted WG decision at IETF 101. > > > Some of the reasons from threads like: > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg13875.html > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg14899.html > > > > > > > > include: > > > > (1) Simpler YANG model > > > > (2) Simpler implementation possible as a single configured > > > > subscription need be connected to only one transport > > > > (3) Simpler implementation in that there is no expectation set on the > > > publisher that there will be no transport loss if the transport type is > > > reconfigured for a particular receiver mid-subscription. > > > > (4) Separation of implementation/troubleshooting concerns, as only one > > > > transport is involved > > > > > > > > > > With the proposed choice construct, I think > > > > > > (1) does not hold, > > > > Agree. > > > > > (2) seems unclear (why are multiple identitical subscriptions for > > > different transports cheaper than one subscriptions with multiple > > > transports?) > > > > Deep within the archived discussions, there were implementation consideration points made about managing content and security filtering across different transports and encodings for a single subscription. (E.g., what happens if filtering happens after encoding and a change is made to the subscription or security filters, how do you ensure the all filtering is applied at the same event boundary?) > > There is only one standard filtering mechanism (NACM) and that does > not filter on the encoding (and it would be a bad layer violation to > filter on the encoding). Since encodings may be negotiated by a > transport, the single encoding argument falls apart as well. I think that the idea is that if the config contains the encoding "json", the server would advertise only "json" in the subscription session. This said, I also think this is a bad idea... /martin > > > (3) I do not understand > > > > There are a set of implications which can be avoided. For example controllers (which are receivers) will be consuming these events. Controller based applications are less likely to have an expectation that there will no event replication for a single subscription-id for a publisher when that subscription-id transitions from one transport to another. > > I am still clueless. What is a 'transitions of transport'? My naive > understanding of a subscription with a receiver and two transport is > that the data goes to both. Or is the idea that these serve has > failover backups? But then this may interact with similar features in > the call-home documents (I did not check again but I think there were > some failover mechanisms in there some time ago). > > > > (4) I do not understand (since you can easily distinguish the receiver > > > and label log messages by receiver) > > > > > > If we would be serious about simplification to lower the point of entry, we > > > would have only a single receiver for a configured subscription. Allowing > > > multiple receivers as long as they use the same transport seems like an > > > arbitrary CLR. > > > > Yes, this was considered. However there are use cases where identical event streams must be sent for receiver redundancy reasons. The current design can support that possibility. Beyond that, there are deployment proof points from oc-telemetry.yang that this is a desirable capability. > > > > OK. But then, I have not yet understood why the transports have to be > the same in the model. (Which does not preclude that an implementation > has a deviation that requires the multiple receivers of a subscription > to use the same transport. And all this is only becoming an issue if > an implementation does actually support multiple transports.) > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > yang-doctors mailing list > yang-doctors@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/yang-doctors > From nobody Sun Jul 29 13:49:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BEC130E06 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EZX-koPfG9ZU for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.eurecom.fr (smtp2.eurecom.fr [193.55.113.211]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E91130EF0 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:23 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,420,1526335200"; d="scan'208";a="9662826" Received: from thorgal.eurecom.fr ([10.3.2.220]) by drago2i.eurecom.fr with ESMTP; 29 Jul 2018 22:49:22 +0200 Received: (from apache@localhost) by thorgal.eurecom.fr (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4/Submit) id w6TKnL0d014594; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 22:49:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: thorgal.eurecom.fr: apache set sender to otilibil@eurecom.fr using -f Received: from lam06-2-82-234-168-183.fbx.proxad.net (lam06-2-82-234-168-183.fbx.proxad.net [82.234.168.183]) by webmail.eurecom.fr (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 22:49:21 +0200 Message-ID: <20180729224921.9u6y9jyx0gos0swg@webmail.eurecom.fr> Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 22:49:21 +0200 From: Ariel Otilibili Anieli To: "Beauville, Yves (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" Cc: Rohit R Ranade , Andy Bierman , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Kent Watsen , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <20180718112108.hqgetzfebhqpdpsk@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180718150228.e2vcccd34sivmz3h@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <991B70D8B4112A4699D5C00DDBBF878A6BBDEF0C@dggeml510-mbx.china.huawei.com> <2b52b279-9f9a-45f0-fa86-6931d0393274@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <2b52b279-9f9a-45f0-fa86-6931d0393274@nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.4) X-Originating-IP: 82.234.168.183 X-Remote-Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; Android 6.0; PLK-L01 Build/HONORPLK-L01) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/67.0.3396.87 Mobile Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] configuration models status and timeline X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 20:49:28 -0000 Hi Yves, Below my comments. Regards, Ariel Quoting "Beauville, Yves (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" : > Kent, Andy and Rohit, > > Could we use a get request with an empty filter, as defined in section > 6.4.2 of RFC6241? > > This looks like the smallest and less impacting RPC defined in the RFC. > > Isn't it a good candidate for an aliveness check? An empty filter retrieves the whole configuration; which can take a =20 lot space and time. I would rather use, as filter of the RPC 'get', the 'current-datetime' =20 or the 'boot-datetime'. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7317#section-3.2 > > Yves > > On 19-07-18 05:20, Rohit R Ranade wrote: >> >> *From:*Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Andy Bier= man >> *Sent:* 18 July 2018 23:32 >> *To:* Juergen Schoenwaelder ; =20 >> Kent Watsen ; netconf@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] configuration models status and timeline >> >> >> >> Ideally, the keep alive would just be handled at the session >> layer. I am >> not sure where the NC spec allows >> >> C: > C: xmlns=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"/> >> S: > S: xmlns=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:netconf:base:1.0"/> >> >> otherwise one could define a noop RPC (I am not sure invoking a fake >> edit-config is necessarily a good idea). >> >> I prefer an RPC for this purpose. >> >> It would be better if the session counters were not affected, >> >> but that would require protocol changes. >> >> Causing error counters to increment for keep-alives is bad. >> >> */[Rohit R Ranade] /*+1 >> >> Andy >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Netconf mailing list >> Netconf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- This message was sent using EURECOM Webmail: http://webmail.eurecom.fr From nobody Mon Jul 30 08:28:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60054131105; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 08:28:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d4IdQRb-y3lc; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 08:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B77D1310FF; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 08:28:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8516; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532964504; x=1534174104; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=rgUpoLSOssqNjDnA66p1bOpX+HOckWaKfNqqKyDQSRo=; b=jFKCSnEXX/p4R0EGdqgWrlOaliGtXmkEpu+8LO+aq/j8hA+Mf0Gswt32 i61cTATNlwXMHxN8mObcXuj3OhRBmAMFBw2I5v3tEo1hGQbYNEG3EPc4s drxBojrQdWIBTOM2fNiGsSfjBl+PN6v/ItD0d8ZOPdiYyz5A5tAlfehR6 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A5AwDoD19b/4oNJK1SCRkBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEHAQEBAQGDTmN/KAqDdJRCgg2DPJIVgXoLI4QDRgIXgnwhNhYBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAgEBAm0cDIU2AQEBAQIBIxFFBQsCAQgOBwMCAgkdAgICMBUQAgQOBQgTgwa?= =?us-ascii?q?BdwgPqxiBLopEBYELh3cXgUE/gRKDEoMbAgEBgTUKAQE1gmqCNSACjGuNJQk?= =?us-ascii?q?Cjy2OEZIQAhEUgSQkDiOBUnAVO4JpixWFPm8BjRKBH4EbAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,422,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="430858526" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 30 Jul 2018 15:28:23 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (xch-rtp-011.cisco.com [64.101.220.151]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6UFSMSD021993 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:28:23 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:28:22 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:28:22 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Martin Bjorklund CC: "kwatsen@juniper.net" , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? Thread-Index: AQHUJ1ReOwlfbH+3hkGPLp9Bm3apCaSn4DUw Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:28:21 +0000 Message-ID: <77080682bf90495caec48436453e4750@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180729.175356.1841285666617255654.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: <20180729.175356.1841285666617255654.mbj@tail-f.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.151, xch-rtp-011.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? 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(envelope-from ) id 1fkBXo-003PzR-G0; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:01:16 -0600 To: ietf@ietf.org Cc: ibagdona@gmail.com, netconf-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org References: <152899335818.26447.7759890925422555917.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <9ad91163-ca97-5db1-1f6d-e365f819db10@labn.net> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:01:15 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152899335818.26447.7759890925422555917.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1fkBXo-003PzR-G0 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:37414 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 5 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Last Call: (YANG Library) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:06:28 -0000 Hi,     I have a late comment on this document that I discovered while reviewing draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf.  Sorry about the timing, but better to make the comment now rather then as an errata... This document says:    All NETCONF servers supporting YANG 1.1 [RFC7950] are required to    support YANG Library (see Section 5.6.4 of RFC 7950).  NETCONF    servers implementing the NETCONF extensions to support the NMDA    [I-D.ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf] MUST implement at least the version    of the YANG library defined in this document.  Similarly, all    RESTCONF servers are required to support YANG Library (see Section 10    of RFC 8040).  RESTCONF servers implementing the RESTCONF extensions    to support the NMDA [I-D.ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf] MUST implement    at least the version of the YANG library defined in this document. I read this as an  update to RFC7950 and this should be noted in the document header, the abstract and Intro. Lou On 6/14/2018 12:22 PM, The IESG wrote: > The IESG has received a request from the Network Configuration WG (netconf) > to consider the following document: - 'YANG Library' > as Proposed Standard > > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final > comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the > ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-06-28. Exceptionally, comments may be > sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of > the Subject line to allow automated sorting. > > Abstract > > > This document describes a YANG library that provides information > about the YANG modules, datastores, and datastore schemas used by a > network management server. Simple caching mechanisms are provided to > allow clients to minimize retrieval of this information. This > version of the YANG library supports the Network Management Datastore > Architecture by listing all datastores supported by a network > management server and the schema that is used by each of these > datastores. > > This document obsoletes RFC 7895. > > > > > The file can be obtained via > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ > > IESG discussion can be tracked via > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ballot/ > > > No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > From nobody Mon Jul 30 10:45:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F24E131137 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 10:45:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gn5LqFmquMqQ for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.33.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDBF0131147 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 10:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw11.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.11]) by gproxy8.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3B7A1AB9B1 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:42:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id kCBwfGzajd20TkCBwfU7bD; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:42:44 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:Cc:To:Subject:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=qYn5fB2QYAKEoLJJ4HepCQM9goBb/7KFiB9qwC6JqRE=; b=R4cswxzYnGQm70ct8ieouMhlhy xTSBNaPUrtuLEFBpQ1SAdBomlq31T1Itkowj8SOx9EmhG+mowxy1gx14jELKoEpoFY8aFJCqJkozI CCJnlfZntL3WfYyd2YC9tQeAf; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:40890 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fkCBw-003d5w-Jw; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:42:44 -0600 From: Lou Berger To: "" Cc: draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf.all@ietf.org, rtg-dir@ietf.org, NetConf WG Message-ID: <7872c72c-cb9a-efcd-578b-fca5beb8ffd6@labn.net> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:42:43 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1fkCBw-003d5w-Jw X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:40890 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 9 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Netconf] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-06 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:45:28 -0000 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see ​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf06.txt Reviewer: Lou Berger Review Date: July 30, 2018 IETF LC End Date: date-if-known Intended Status: Standards Track Summary: I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be resolved before publication. Comments: The document is is generally well written and easy to read. There are several places where I'm sure the authors know exactly what they intend, but the text could be revised to help along those less familiar with the work. There is also one miss-marked RFC Update reference. Major Issues: Minor Issues: - Cover/Abstract Updates: 7950 The update to RFC 7950 requires the usage of I-D.ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis by NETCONF servers implementing the Network Management Datastore Architecture. If I read this and the referenced document correctly, this is saying that I-D.ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis updates which version of YANG library is supported by implementations RFC7950 that support NMDA. If this is the correct reading, this document doesn't update RFC7950, but rather I-D.ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis updates 7950. (this omission was noted in a separate message.) - section 3.1.1. The "config-filter" parameter can be used to retrieve only "config true" or "config false" nodes. also leaf config-filter { type boolean; description "Filter for nodes with the given value for their 'config' property."; } So this means: absent = provide all true = provide only true false = provide only false Right? Either way, I think this could be clarified a bit. At least say what behavior is expected when the leaf is omitted. Nits: - the orders of sections 3.1.1.1. and 3.1.1.2. should be reversed to match the module ordering. - Section 3.1.2: The "default-operation" parameter is a copy of the "default-operation" parameter of the operation. The "edit-content" choice mirrors the "edit-content" choice of the operation. Note, however, that the "config" element in the "edit-content" choice of uses "anydata" (introduced in YANG 1.1) while the "config" element in the "edit-content" choice of used "anyxml". It's fine to say that these nodes mirror nodes, but this document should at least summarize the function of each, e.g., The "default-operation" parameter selects the default operation for this request. It is a copy.... From nobody Mon Jul 30 11:15:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A49291311A0; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:15:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jUiVwvcYF9np; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 513A71311A2; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108157.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w6UI3lWa012862; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:04:36 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=BfaouicMs1l7Td26w4jLONLH6BMk5k30O2sazNTR6ls=; b=vIgx/f/n4q/OryirJqIL7WTKsOR2XYv9yhwIQgRK6dFT61U/EmnijsztBJJH4btsrMiM wc8ruADk/zmKY3R7Kvgfuc/kUbghEWQe/9frEp/DYmh/9CZ2rn+mw2xA0Y05NjKTNbyH 427u9GfETBf14dHy1oJ+Dzt61iRoQKbM41sGoTCEfmekwmJVu2rF7D5k1ILifzUcx89N LNackfcRZx96KN2nc1kQ+F6/eZ97hWTnON00HGCKFzf8FxLTQZ1CvoI/59NnVQ46Woun bnesfFGAAvLGj67TtSrQyLvb4ZyEAMiFoBY7/3J8StVhTVE+h7CoixXHMsRKignJiWyh tg== Received: from nam01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam01lp0176.outbound.protection.outlook.com [216.32.181.176]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2kj6jg0557-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:04:35 -0700 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.200.153) by BYAPR05MB4840.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.235.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1017.10; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 18:04:33 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::84c5:999c:9159:d416]) by BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::84c5:999c:9159:d416%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1017.010; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 18:04:33 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: Martin Bjorklund , "evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" CC: "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? 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X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 18:15:10 -0000 DQoNCg0KPiBJIGFzc3VtZSB0aGF0IGFuIGF1Z21lbnRhdGlvbiB3b3VsZCBiZSBkb25lIGxpa2Ug dGhpczoNCj4NCj4gICBtb2R1bGUgaWV0Zi1uZXRjb25mLXN1YnNjcmliZWQtbm90aWZpY2F0aW9u cyB7DQo+ICAgICAuLi4NCj4gICAgIHByZWZpeCBuc247DQo+ICAgIA0KPiAgICAgaWRlbnRpdHkg bmV0Y29uZiB7IC4uLiB9DQo+DQo+ICAgICBhdWdtZW50IC9zdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zL3N1YnNjcmlw dGlvbi9yZWNlaXZlcnMvcmVjZWl2ZXIvdHJhbnNwb3J0IHsNCj4gICAgICAgd2hlbiAnZGVyaXZl ZC1mcm9tLW9yLXNlbGYoLi4vLi4vLi4vdHJhbnNwb3J0LCAibnNuOm5ldGNvbmYiJyk7DQo+ICAg IA0KPiAgICAgICAgY2FzZSBuZXRjb25mIHsNCj4gICAgICAgICAgLy8gbGVhZnJlZiB0byBjYWxs LWhvbWUgY29uZmlnDQo+ICAgICAgICB9DQo+ICAgICAgfQ0KPiAgICB9DQo+DQo+IC4uLiBzbyB0 aGF0ICppZiogdGhlIGNsaWVudCBjb25maWd1cmVzIHRoZSBtYW5kYXRvcnkgInRyYW5zcG9ydCIg bGVhZg0KPiB0byAibnNuOm5ldGNvbmYiLCB0aGVuIGl0IGFsc28gTVVTVCBjb25maWd1cmUgdGhl IGNvcnJlc3BvbmRpbmcNCj4gbmV0Y29uZi1zcGVjaWZpYyBwYXJhbXMuDQoNCg0KQnV0IHRoaXMg ZGVwZW5kcyBncmVhdGx5IG9uIHRoZSAibm90aWYiIG1vZGVsIGhhdmluZyB0aGUgcmlnaHQNCiJ3 aGVuIiBzdGF0ZW1lbnQuICBXaWxsIG5vbi1JRVRGIG5vdGlmIG1vZGVscyBhbHdheXMgZG8gdGhp cz8NCg0KDQo+IC9tYXJ0aW4NCg0KS2VudCAvLyBjb250cmlidXRvcg0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Mon Jul 30 11:42:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376B9130EAE; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:41:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tJaKoxBTSzUW; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1650130E2A; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-80-27.A165.priv.bahnhof.se [212.85.80.27]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 930BC1AE0290; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:41:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:41:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180730.204142.1505732335534077415.mbj@tail-f.com> To: evoit@cisco.com Cc: kwatsen@juniper.net, yang-doctors@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <77080682bf90495caec48436453e4750@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180729.175356.1841285666617255654.mbj@tail-f.com> <77080682bf90495caec48436453e4750@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? 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cmUgb25seSBhZGRlZCB2aWEgYXVnbWVudGF0aW9uPw0KPiA+ID4NCj4gPiA+DQo+ID4gPg0KPiA+ ID4gVGhhbmtzLA0KPiA+ID4NCj4gPiA+IEVyaWMNCg== From nobody Mon Jul 30 11:43:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 799C4130EAE; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:43:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e6Q4CZqe2lc5; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03812129619; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-80-27.A165.priv.bahnhof.se [212.85.80.27]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 469D51AE0290; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:43:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:43:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180730.204338.1880656734367112577.mbj@tail-f.com> To: kwatsen@juniper.net Cc: evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, yang-doctors@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <277A3AB6-40E9-466C-9FF6-316EC38737E7@juniper.net> References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180729.175356.1841285666617255654.mbj@tail-f.com> <277A3AB6-40E9-466C-9FF6-316EC38737E7@juniper.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 18:43:41 -0000 Kent Watsen wrote: > > > > > I assume that an augmentation would be done like this: > > > > module ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications { > > ... > > prefix nsn; > > > > identity netconf { ... } > > > > augment /subscriptions/subscription/receivers/receiver/transport { > > when 'derived-from-or-self(../../../transport, "nsn:netconf"'); > > > > case netconf { > > // leafref to call-home config > > } > > } > > } > > > > ... so that *if* the client configures the mandatory "transport" leaf > > to "nsn:netconf", then it also MUST configure the corresponding > > netconf-specific params. > > > But this depends greatly on the "notif" model having the right > "when" statement. Will non-IETF notif models always do this? It is not really crucial. And if a vendor-specific model is badly written, well, then it is badly written... /martin > > > > /martin > > Kent // contributor > > > From nobody Mon Jul 30 11:45:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F393A130EAF; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:44:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JMreU5-ZihYo; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fkDc9-0045kK-85; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:13:53 -0600 To: Kent Watsen , "" Cc: "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf.all@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , NetConf WG References: <7872c72c-cb9a-efcd-578b-fca5beb8ffd6@labn.net> <97D5F408-3318-4843-B14C-B9C38DB8B218@juniper.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <627d816b-9469-0e60-4627-335fc2f53782@labn.net> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:13:52 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <97D5F408-3318-4843-B14C-B9C38DB8B218@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1fkDc9-0045kK-85 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:48152 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 5 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-06 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 19:42:44 -0000 Hi Kent, Thanks for the quick response.  I think there's just one open point left after your response... On 7/30/2018 2:44 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: > Hi Lou, > > Thanks for your review! > >> Summary: >> >> I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be >> resolved before publication. >> >> Comments: >> >> The document is is generally well written and easy to read. There are >> several places where I'm sure the authors know exactly what they intend, >> but the text could be revised to help along those less familiar with the >> work. There is also one miss-marked RFC Update reference. > Just to be sure, all these issues are discussed below, right? > Yes, the ones I felt really needed to be addressed are listed. >> Major Issues: >> >> >> >> Minor Issues: >> >> - Cover/Abstract >> Updates: 7950 >> >> The update to >> RFC 7950 requires the usage of I-D.ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis by NETCONF >> servers implementing the Network Management Datastore Architecture. >> >> If I read this and the referenced document correctly, this is saying >> that I-D.ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis updates which version of YANG library >> is supported by implementations RFC7950 that support NMDA. If this is >> the correct reading, this document doesn't update RFC7950, but rather >> I-D.ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis updates 7950. (this omission was noted in a >> separate message.) > The last paragraph in Section 2 says this: > > This document updates [RFC7950], Section 5.6.4, to allow servers to > advertise the capability :yang-library:1.1 instead of :yang- > library:1.0, and to implement the subtree "/yang-library" > [I-D.ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis] instead of "/modules-state". > > Note that RFC 7950, Section 5.6.4 says: > > A NETCONF server MUST announce the modules it implements (see > Section 5.6.5) by implementing the YANG module "ietf-yang-library" > defined in [RFC7895] and listing all implemented modules in the > "/modules-state/module" list. > > Which is what this document changes. well doesn't I-D.ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis already say this and as the document that has the actual modification, it seems that that is the right document to list the 'update'  and this document need only reference I-D.ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis without any duplication of requirements. Note that I-D.ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis says:    All NETCONF servers supporting YANG 1.1 [RFC7950] are required to    support YANG Library (see Section 5.6.4 of RFC 7950).  NETCONF    servers implementing the NETCONF extensions to support the NMDA    [I-D.ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf] MUST implement at least the version    of the YANG library defined in this document.  Similarly, all    RESTCONF servers are required to support YANG Library (see Section 10    of RFC 8040).  RESTCONF servers implementing the RESTCONF extensions    to support the NMDA [I-D.ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf] MUST implement    at least the version of the YANG library defined in this document. isn't that sufficient? > >> - section 3.1.1. >> >> The "config-filter" parameter can be used to retrieve only "config >> true" or "config false" nodes. >> >> also >> leaf config-filter { >> type boolean; >> description >> "Filter for nodes with the given value for their >> 'config' property."; >> } >> >> So this means: >> absent = provide all >> true = provide only true >> false = provide only false >> >> Right? Either way, I think this could be clarified a bit. At least say >> what behavior is expected when the leaf is omitted. > OLD: > "Filter for nodes with the given value for their > 'config' property."; > NEW: > "Filter for nodes with the given value for their > 'config' property. For example, when set to > 'true', only 'config true' nodes are returned. > When unset, all nodes are returned."; > > Okay? Yes. Thanks. > >> Nits: >> >> - the orders of sections 3.1.1.1. and 3.1.1.2. should be reversed to >> match the module ordering. > ...or change the order in the module, which I think might be preferred. > WFM - I didn't want to suggest a technical change to address an editorial comment. >> - Section 3.1.2: >> >> The "default-operation" parameter is a copy of the >> "default-operation" parameter of the operation. >> >> The "edit-content" choice mirrors the "edit-content" choice of the >> operation. Note, however, that the "config" element in >> the "edit-content" choice of uses "anydata" (introduced >> in YANG 1.1) while the "config" element in the "edit-content" choice >> of used "anyxml". >> >> It's fine to say that these nodes mirror nodes, but this >> document should at least summarize the function of each, e.g., >> The "default-operation" parameter selects the default operation >> for this request. It is a copy.... > NEW > The "default-operation" parameter selects the default operation to > use. It is a copy of the "default-operation" parameter of the > operation. > > The "edit-content" parameter specifies the content for the edit > operation. It mirrors the "edit-content" choice of the > operation. Note, however, that the "config" element in > the "edit-content" choice of uses "anydata" (introduced > in YANG 1.1) while the "config" element in the "edit-content" choice > of used "anyxml". > > > Okay? Yes. Thanks! Lou > > Thanks, > Kent // co-author > > > > From nobody Mon Jul 30 13:10:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587BC124D68; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:10:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Qt218JUlh2V; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x543.google.com (mail-pg1-x543.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::543]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8578D130DEE; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x543.google.com with SMTP id x5-v6so7828226pgp.7; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:10:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=kzYzW6f1DLqVf0Rb3BEJDTqZjdkfh0ktE6ODzWsHBIY=; b=MIUkzgRiyQTIXOwJX4GcKp+oEh+Y9vpsJIi+yRRBC2Iq2usXq4iN2hjGdX82ruU8qk xG6oscvYqxWEu6UXzMr5RA1ShnmhZh/Cw1yFmO0UlwUbwYvZM5pIuKkcX8nkeQ9/qCGL MgBKmNKwZT2j4y1ZNAEww+sxSBxxggk5IC9OB27Q/43wmRFmWMoMRLOIXWKv6HCxboDV +RvfoWElm983yHoH35wTDtML6/X1VQwisRNTuCf5jndqYnja5MgNwWV+J/wtuzGusICd mrkSwXeksr+3MMrmC1/lzwR2pNr55LqW/Jc9yaYaoAbOWs5QxpzqfDGPjhSR75oTtPZo XWIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=kzYzW6f1DLqVf0Rb3BEJDTqZjdkfh0ktE6ODzWsHBIY=; b=ALPbNy7YueMrNubQ2vTzSPwNotoRKKxjWVpyF2mUB0lUvOF9FCgo0Le0ZJ8PF8e4pX fGqOU6CsDjJC9U5AZvhdKhmIE0irn4x/YqvcRTpSl+a4FX6vJFZLSYpqppfsfq24cdHG ybInnIn2/TIvkVTTmOmjfTNVqgiJ+wT4vx5qj81oUEbM9U1uUm52CIoUajmsewV454kh g/M0A9MUK6tG7rTXWprjUnzMwabgnAhWZwtJbCMp4/WRH4yrTJdp9O8fcrakPTAsLE/+ Dtq44rxwjuwPK2LOCT5QP/4sK1byxQaIahwacHgUBuA2eon6di4pjdPCE81xrFnmH6mR Z2VQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlF2mdyW4qnRqJIRVMO+tFmfHYX4sZQBcJ+8mOn94t6gWmOcXvwi Ar6YI/r+w2LYlu+xHNIe0KM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfL7aqn0W4lvPi1ARX/wrtMwauda/iPZtTQDurN1Nzk0P1uNv8wO9ng3ZfDTrclEpAUHasIoQ== X-Received: by 2002:a62:4a41:: with SMTP id x62-v6mr19316069pfa.45.1532981438075; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4700:1280:3c4e:5eef:2001:c4eb? ([2601:647:4700:1280:3c4e:5eef:2001:c4eb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s73-v6sm22041807pfi.154.2018.07.30.13.10.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: <9ad91163-ca97-5db1-1f6d-e365f819db10@labn.net> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:10:35 -0700 Cc: ietf@ietf.org, Ignas Bagdonas , netconf-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5363EB75-95BC-4407-9BFA-3D97EAC440D3@gmail.com> References: <152899335818.26447.7759890925422555917.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9ad91163-ca97-5db1-1f6d-e365f819db10@labn.net> To: Lou Berger X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Last Call: (YANG Library) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:10:41 -0000 Hi Lou, > On Jul 30, 2018, at 10:01 AM, Lou Berger wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I have a late comment on this document that I discovered while = reviewing draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf. Sorry about the timing, but = better to make the comment now rather then as an errata... >=20 > This document says: > All NETCONF servers supporting YANG 1.1 [RFC7950] are required to > support YANG Library (see Section 5.6.4 of RFC 7950). NETCONF > servers implementing the NETCONF extensions to support the NMDA > [I-D.ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf] MUST implement at least the version > of the YANG library defined in this document. Similarly, all > RESTCONF servers are required to support YANG Library (see Section = 10 > of RFC 8040). RESTCONF servers implementing the RESTCONF = extensions > to support the NMDA [I-D.ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf] MUST implement > at least the version of the YANG library defined in this document. >=20 > I read this as an update to RFC7950 and this should be noted in the = document header, the abstract and Intro. Your read of the update to RFC7950 is that it should now reference = rfc7895bis in Section 5.6.4. Is that correct? How is that different from = 7895bis obsoleting 7895, and thus all references to 7895 should now be = to 7895bis? >=20 > Lou >=20 >=20 > On 6/14/2018 12:22 PM, The IESG wrote: >> The IESG has received a request from the Network Configuration WG = (netconf) >> to consider the following document: - 'YANG Library' >> as Proposed Standard >>=20 >> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits = final >> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the >> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-06-28. Exceptionally, comments = may be >> sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the = beginning of >> the Subject line to allow automated sorting. >>=20 >> Abstract >>=20 >>=20 >> This document describes a YANG library that provides information >> about the YANG modules, datastores, and datastore schemas used by = a >> network management server. Simple caching mechanisms are provided = to >> allow clients to minimize retrieval of this information. This >> version of the YANG library supports the Network Management = Datastore >> Architecture by listing all datastores supported by a network >> management server and the schema that is used by each of these >> datastores. >>=20 >> This document obsoletes RFC 7895. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> The file can be obtained via >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ >>=20 >> IESG discussion can be tracked via >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ballot/ >>=20 >>=20 >> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Netconf mailing list >> Netconf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >>=20 >=20 Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Mon Jul 30 13:21:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA666124D68 for ; 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Mon, 30 Jul 2018 14:19:42 -0600 To: Mahesh Jethanandani Cc: ietf@ietf.org, Ignas Bagdonas , netconf-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org References: <152899335818.26447.7759890925422555917.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9ad91163-ca97-5db1-1f6d-e365f819db10@labn.net> <5363EB75-95BC-4407-9BFA-3D97EAC440D3@gmail.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <114e3335-a976-4a84-58e0-8817a06324c1@labn.net> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 16:19:41 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5363EB75-95BC-4407-9BFA-3D97EAC440D3@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1fkEdq-0001lv-TA X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:55634 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 7 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] Last Call: (YANG Library) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:21:39 -0000 Hi, On 7/30/2018 4:10 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > Hi Lou, > >> On Jul 30, 2018, at 10:01 AM, Lou Berger wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I have a late comment on this document that I discovered while reviewing draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf. Sorry about the timing, but better to make the comment now rather then as an errata... >> >> This document says: >> All NETCONF servers supporting YANG 1.1 [RFC7950] are required to >> support YANG Library (see Section 5.6.4 of RFC 7950). NETCONF >> servers implementing the NETCONF extensions to support the NMDA >> [I-D.ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf] MUST implement at least the version >> of the YANG library defined in this document. Similarly, all >> RESTCONF servers are required to support YANG Library (see Section 10 >> of RFC 8040). RESTCONF servers implementing the RESTCONF extensions >> to support the NMDA [I-D.ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf] MUST implement >> at least the version of the YANG library defined in this document. >> >> I read this as an update to RFC7950 and this should be noted in the document header, the abstract and Intro. > Your read of the update to RFC7950 is that it should now reference rfc7895bis in Section 5.6.4. Is that correct? How is that different from 7895bis obsoleting 7895, and thus all references to 7895 should now be to 7895bis? All this means is that  draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis should note it updates RFC 7950 in the header and abstract... Lou >> Lou >> >> >> On 6/14/2018 12:22 PM, The IESG wrote: >>> The IESG has received a request from the Network Configuration WG (netconf) >>> to consider the following document: - 'YANG Library' >>> as Proposed Standard >>> >>> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final >>> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the >>> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-06-28. Exceptionally, comments may be >>> sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of >>> the Subject line to allow automated sorting. >>> >>> Abstract >>> >>> >>> This document describes a YANG library that provides information >>> about the YANG modules, datastores, and datastore schemas used by a >>> network management server. Simple caching mechanisms are provided to >>> allow clients to minimize retrieval of this information. This >>> version of the YANG library supports the Network Management Datastore >>> Architecture by listing all datastores supported by a network >>> management server and the schema that is used by each of these >>> datastores. >>> >>> This document obsoletes RFC 7895. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The file can be obtained via >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ >>> >>> IESG discussion can be tracked via >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/ballot/ >>> >>> >>> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Netconf mailing list >>> Netconf@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf >>> > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com > > From nobody Mon Jul 30 13:44:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D8DF130ED8 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:44:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tnkbfhgxPt2N for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2738A130EB9 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108157.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w6UKiIZC013684; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:44:18 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=WMSHk5DomJSVDCaywih4ajnlZWmMqmCGNmZvUqmDH0Y=; b=xbiRjB3X4VLYoaOdAFsoNjS67suAR6121KUkCXnPc1duZZqNQCu3eFRM0unFWf9azKAQ X/E2Eue/But6rB2+aQrCMSSqUpJnpN/qdKNu6WnPtbnyPlS8m2PWd2JqL3VSteEAXq1V 6O8Gc+HyFc7CgXvNvgXdJgq1hvhln6Ly5lGx3Qne2RKnN6yAJKgilvcE/J7DoJczD0wM hOTC4EnNGYNkHsldIyRi/wuJREQL0Gj+38wMNixOpm7bljKye+zASe3mqdkxqbDNPv+B C+DqUrK0NTZE6i+Pd7RS1J5nZeWwLiRxkfmaWLoE330R6Kg7la+6z+QHqplSdCYOUr52 sQ== Received: from nam01-sn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam01lp0116.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.116]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2kj6jg0g62-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:44:18 -0700 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.200.153) by BYAPR05MB4903.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.235.157) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1017.5; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:44:16 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::84c5:999c:9159:d416]) by BYAPR05MB4230.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::84c5:999c:9159:d416%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1017.010; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:44:15 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: Martin Bjorklund CC: "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" , "evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? 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h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=EFB6V9S2qOdYFyQ53NWZgdUePch5aXWOBVRJTaro49k=; b=OnKZN1l5y8dpMTaBJzOlenbzFDNmbivfyqYeiQeQlW4WUAdyp4woeg9Epoesv1xl y/ZccUk3Kyt27dCLehRXoS0omlj0FM6MvH+G86tp0l/erX6ZMvup4dSlkoHriACm Y+lNB/PedBpi8ciovIIJ7K51aSo2M8gwpO6Z4qm8aDg=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-223ff700000055ff-83-5b6071d836e2 Received: from ESESBMB501.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.114]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id EB.B3.22015.8D1706B5; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:27:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESBMB503.ericsson.se (153.88.183.170) by ESESBMB501.ericsson.se (153.88.183.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:27:36 +0200 Received: from ESESBMB503.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.186]) by ESESBMB503.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.186]) with mapi id 15.01.1466.003; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:27:36 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" CC: "gen-art@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf.all@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Re: [Gen-art] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-06 Thread-Index: AdQo2g8aZ5xHtRRFQ+GlpKdy7srUWA== Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:27:36 +0000 Message-ID: <16f7bca5d58b4d69a3e1618b8ba9dbf5@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.153] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_16f7bca5d58b4d69a3e1618b8ba9dbf5ericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7ke6NwoRog9lT5C1aW68wW1x99ZnF 4tnG+SwWVzf+ZLSYuuk2qwOrx5IlP5k8NhzwDGCK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4Mp4u8i5YEpoxfZ7 rawNjE+9uxg5OSQETCQuTTjH3sXIxSEkcJRRYuPuP0wgCSGBb4wSXc15EPYyRoknraJdjBwc bAIWEt3/tEHCIgLBEnP+fGUGsZkFrjFKTF+oCGILC4RJdOzbywpREy2xb/oZKFtPYv3CZWDj WQRUJQ73nQWzeQWsJdqWXmUHsRkFxCS+n1rDBDFTXOLWk/lMEHcKSCzZc54ZwhaVePn4HyuE rSSx99h1FpDTmAWSJdZcTIcYKShxcuYTlgmMwrOQTJqFUDULSRVEiY7Egt2f2CBsbYllC18z w9hnDjxmQhZfwMi+ilG0OLW4ODfdyFgvtSgzubg4P08vL7VkEyMwpg5u+a27g3H1a8dDjAIc jEo8vE7JCdFCrIllxZW5hxglOJiVRHhtZOKjhXhTEiurUovy44tKc1KLDzFKc7AoifPqrdoT JSSQnliSmp2aWpBaBJNl4uCUamD0Xe5T5VagIt9UzV8y88NjB8uFJg0SnQfTw/5fTJEJr1Ce YqL8PeLIE8PFPqvurXzF25TznXWq9D7eH9Ncr91VOx82a8X+1Z73/i87uOiN7ZHkStdOC8/t Bcwa7/zuvdlYuTT3vlXfndzDBrs+Zb96q6fwa7vfFeFTiRofY7n/elxc8JFH3+a9EktxRqKh FnNRcSIACV0m9aUCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Gen-art] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-06 X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:27:46 -0000 --_000_16f7bca5d58b4d69a3e1618b8ba9dbf5ericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Juergen, It seems like I missed your reply earlier. Sorry for that. See inline. >> Minor issues: >> >> Sometimes, when a draft updates an existing RFC, people ask whether >> implementations not implementing the draft are still compliant with the = updated >> RFC. Based on discussions, the consensus seems to be that existing >> implementations are still compliant, and if one wants to mandate the new >> features a bis is needed. I would just like to confirm whether that appl= ies >> also to this draft. If so, perhaps a note indicating that would be usefu= l, in >> order to avoid discussions in future? > > An existing NETCONF server not implementing NMDA is still compliant to > the RFC 6241. However, a NETCONF server implementing NMDA (RFC 8342) > has to implement this update to RFC 6241. Do you want to have this > stated more explicitly? (We will have the same for RESTCONF and the > NMDA update of RESTCONF.) I think it would be useful. >> Related to that, it would also be good to have an interoperability >> statement, saying that implementations that implement the draft will >> still work with implementations that do not. > > This primarily concerns clients: They need to be able to fallback to > using instead of and instead of > if they communicate with a non NMDA NETCONF server. I am > not sure whether this is a "SHOULD be able to fallback" or a "MUST be > able to fallback". If you use MUST, you guarantee that fallback will always work (assuming imp= lementations follow the spec). If you use SHOULD, I think you'll need some = additional discussion on when it doesn't apply, what to do then, etc. So, my suggestion (from a reviewer perspective) would be MUST. Regards, Christer --_000_16f7bca5d58b4d69a3e1618b8ba9dbf5ericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Hi Juergen,

 

It seems like I missed your reply earlier. Sorry for that. Se= e inline.

 

>> Minor issues:

>>

>> Sometimes, when a draft updates an existing RFC, peo= ple ask whether

>> implementations not implementing the draft are still= compliant with the updated

>> RFC. Based on discussions, the consensus seems to be= that existing

>> implementations are still compliant, and if one want= s to mandate the new

>> features a bis is needed. I would just like to confi= rm whether that applies

>> also to this draft. If so, perhaps a note indicating= that would be useful, in

>> order to avoid discussions in future?

> 

> An existing NETCONF server not implementing NMDA is stil= l compliant to

> the RFC 6241. However, a NETCONF server implementing NMD= A (RFC 8342)

> has to implement this update to RFC 6241. Do you want to= have this

> stated more explicitly? (We will have the same for RESTC= ONF and the

> NMDA update of RESTCONF.)

 

I think it would be useful.

 

>> Related to that, it would also be good to have an in= teroperability

>> statement, saying that implementations that implemen= t the draft will

>> still work with implementations that do not.

> 

> This primarily concerns clients: They need to be able to= fallback to

> using <edit-config> instead of <edit-data> a= nd <get> instead of

> <get-data> if they communicate with a non NMDA NET= CONF server. I am

> not sure whether this is a "SHOULD be able to fallb= ack" or a "MUST be

> able to fallback".

 

If you use MUST, you guarantee that fallback will always work= (assuming implementations follow the spec). If you use SHOULD, I think you= ’ll need some additional discussion on when it doesn’t apply, what to do then, etc.

 

So, my suggestion (from a reviewer perspective) would be MUST= .

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

 

--_000_16f7bca5d58b4d69a3e1618b8ba9dbf5ericssoncom_-- From nobody Tue Jul 31 07:51:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476DA130EB3 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 07:51:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wYd5MHtdlWqL for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 07:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9326B130EAA for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 07:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-80-27.A165.priv.bahnhof.se [212.85.80.27]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 382AD1AE0426; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:51:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:51:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180731.165103.950825344221422538.mbj@tail-f.com> To: kwatsen@juniper.net Cc: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de, evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <44B0A74E-CCF0-4E9B-846A-1F46E90AEB5E@juniper.net> References: <44B0A74E-CCF0-4E9B-846A-1F46E90AEB5E@juniper.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? 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Tue, 31 Jul 2018 10:48:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lfyFji9rdYjD; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 10:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268C3130E5B; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 10:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 018D423A578F; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 19:48:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 19:48:27 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Martin Bjorklund Cc: evoit@cisco.com, yang-doctors@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180731174827.n5r2jebon45s2cxy@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Martin Bjorklund , evoit@cisco.com, yang-doctors@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180729.175356.1841285666617255654.mbj@tail-f.com> <77080682bf90495caec48436453e4750@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180730.204142.1505732335534077415.mbj@tail-f.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20180730.204142.1505732335534077415.mbj@tail-f.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 17:48:34 -0000 On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 08:41:42PM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > The empty mandatory choice does provide value since it requires that > some transport-specific parameters are configured. However, can we > assume that all transports require configuration parameters here? Can you have a receiver without any transport parameters? > It is probably safest to not have a mandatory choice, and instead ensure > that each transport augements the proper params -- and since this is > YANG 1.1, the transport params that are augmented can actually be > marked as mandatory. Frankly, an empty mandatory choice quite clearly says "this is incomplete and unusable without an augmentation". /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 31 10:55:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB88130E60 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 10:55:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8CUweFEdoItt for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 10:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (anna.eecs.jacobs-university.de [IPv6:2001:638:709:5::7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5D91292AD for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 10:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id 989DE23A587D; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 19:55:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 19:55:38 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Kent Watsen Cc: Martin Bjorklund , "evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180731175538.tsdcuea4lbdl7fui@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Kent Watsen , Martin Bjorklund , "evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" References: <44B0A74E-CCF0-4E9B-846A-1F46E90AEB5E@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44B0A74E-CCF0-4E9B-846A-1F46E90AEB5E@juniper.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 17:55:44 -0000 On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 08:44:15PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: > > In the case of RESTCONF, we could update the ietf-restconf-client and > ietf-restconf-server models to include an "encodings" leaf-list, to > configure the RESTCONF server which encodings it should support. RESTCONF uses SSE for notification delivery. What you have in mind is likely the HTTP/2 push transport defined in draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif which I think should not be called RESTCONF just because it uses some version of HTTP. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 31 11:07:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8CA130DF7 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 11:07:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PteXEcF4_1T7 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 11:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anna.localdomain (firewallix.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.247]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72483130E5E for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 11:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id C7BB523A59D2; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 20:07:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 20:07:47 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Andy Bierman Cc: Martin Bjorklund , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , Netconf , Robert Wilton Message-ID: <20180731180747.b7ad56q3sxo4x76h@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Andy Bierman , Martin Bjorklund , "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" , Netconf , Robert Wilton References: <9d2e34e6-fc40-9c4b-1be5-cbee3ff8f89c@cisco.com> <20180729.173002.216260545658738911.mbj@tail-f.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YangPush now X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 18:07:51 -0000 On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 08:41:24AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Hi think the plan to finish and publish SN + YP + netconf-notifs w/o > > support for configured subscriptions is ok. I assume that as soon as > > these documents are sent to the IESG for publication, the WG > > immediately starts to work on configured subscriptions for netconf. > > > > However, I would have preferred to remove configured subscriptions > > from SN and YP, b/c I beleive that this would be faster (essentially > > echoing what Balazs wrote in the first email in this thread). If we > > keep configured subscriptions in these docs, they will take additional > > time to finish b/c the text needs clarifications. > > > > > I agree > Yep. And my concerns are with the protocol (-notif) documents, except some weirdness with the configured subscriptions YANG model, which messes up the difference between subscription concerns, receiver concerns, and transport concerns (but perhaps we are moving towards fixing this in another thread). /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 31 12:02:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6180130DC6 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:02:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aIJ8NX2HcBZb for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6237E130E4A for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 455A9DA080BAF for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 20:02:12 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 20:02:14 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.107]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.139]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:02:08 -0700 From: Alexander Clemm To: Martin Bjorklund , "kwatsen@juniper.net" CC: "evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? Thread-Index: AQHUKEYUmUSBX283/kCJ9HawSKyfbKSp4JqA///MaPA= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 19:02:07 +0000 Message-ID: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB406AA@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <44B0A74E-CCF0-4E9B-846A-1F46E90AEB5E@juniper.net> <20180731.165103.950825344221422538.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: <20180731.165103.950825344221422538.mbj@tail-f.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.209.216.144] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? 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X19fXw0KPiBOZXRjb25mIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBOZXRjb25mQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbmV0Y29uZg0K From nobody Tue Jul 31 12:02:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F4AA130DC6; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:02:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29WHP8seKY2a; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34DCC130E60; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (h-80-27.A165.priv.bahnhof.se [212.85.80.27]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3776B1AE0426; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 21:02:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 21:02:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20180731.210217.102849326902496921.mbj@tail-f.com> To: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Cc: evoit@cisco.com, yang-doctors@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <20180731174827.n5r2jebon45s2cxy@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <77080682bf90495caec48436453e4750@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180730.204142.1505732335534077415.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180731174827.n5r2jebon45s2cxy@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 19:02:21 -0000 Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 08:41:42PM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > > > The empty mandatory choice does provide value since it requires that > > some transport-specific parameters are configured. However, can we > > assume that all transports require configuration parameters here? > > Can you have a receiver without any transport parameters? Who knows? Maybe the transport parameters are obvious and static? > > It is probably safest to not have a mandatory choice, and instead ensure > > that each transport augements the proper params -- and since this is > > YANG 1.1, the transport params that are augmented can actually be > > marked as mandatory. > > Frankly, an empty mandatory choice quite clearly says "this is > incomplete and unusable without an augmentation". Yes. The question is if we can guarantee that *all* transoports *require* configuration params. /martin > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > From nobody Tue Jul 31 12:39:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B214130DF7; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:39:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nAEqwyxuNBVW; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22D34130E2A; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:39:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2963; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1533065960; x=1534275560; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=qZ8JXr3xHr632vSWxpk9sOpLnZ5qXqtw0UEphh6QzsE=; b=PRckPgA9zk4z9ZNui6v/s9hRjRhuFjAblDDMiIgmgRVMM69daFfvltqe 3lnpafxAuyTx1noM0hgWwnGXLqvsFVMLQYI39m3eYxbVAz7zJ7BI6/VGC avbu1f6JgT5tCMfcI6quBqI+U41TrMLyVLAL5X1mJjS5P10OHAFgDBPRo o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CeAQB7uWBb/5tdJa1SBgMZAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBBwEBAQEBg05jfzKYP4INlViBegsfhE0CgyshNRcBAgEBAgEBAm0?= =?us-ascii?q?cDIU2AQEBAQIBOj8FCQICAQgOAgUDDREQGxclAgQBDQ2DGYF3CK8oikYFBYh?= =?us-ascii?q?/F4FBP4QkhFQUNyaEbyACjGyNKQkCjy6BUIcOhTeSFAIRFIEkHgE2gVJwFYM?= =?us-ascii?q?lhjOKH49vgRsBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,428,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="150489856" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 31 Jul 2018 19:39:19 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6VJdIf2014283 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 31 Jul 2018 19:39:19 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 15:39:18 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 15:39:18 -0400 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , "Martin Bjorklund" , "Andy Bierman (andy@yumaworks.com)" CC: "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? Thread-Index: AQHUJ1ReOwlfbH+3hkGPLp9Bm3apCaSn4DUwgAB+GwCAAYN0gP//xXiQ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 19:39:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180729.175356.1841285666617255654.mbj@tail-f.com> <77080682bf90495caec48436453e4750@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180730.204142.1505732335534077415.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180731174827.n5r2jebon45s2cxy@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20180731174827.n5r2jebon45s2cxy@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.56.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.154, xch-rtp-014.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 19:39:22 -0000 > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 31, 2018 1:48 PM >=20 > On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 08:41:42PM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > > > The empty mandatory choice does provide value since it requires that > > some transport-specific parameters are configured. However, can we > > assume that all transports require configuration parameters here? >=20 > Can you have a receiver without any transport parameters? >=20 > > It is probably safest to not have a mandatory choice, and instead > > ensure that each transport augements the proper params -- and since > > this is YANG 1.1, the transport params that are augmented can actually > > be marked as mandatory. >=20 > Frankly, an empty mandatory choice quite clearly says "this is incomplete= and > unusable without an augmentation". My read above is the YANG doctor's position is that we should *not* use the= empty mandatory choice. Let me know if I got this wrong. That would mean that each transport document supporting configured subscrip= tions would then augment transport specific parameters to "/subscriptions/s= ubscription/receivers/receiver". And (assuming the "single transport" dec= ision of IETF100 isn't changed), that the identity "transport" could be lev= eraged to enforce that only a single transport specific set of credentials = are associated with a receiver. =20 A sample YANG augmentation for NETCONF would then look like: module ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications { =20 prefix nsn; =20 import ietf-netconf-client { prefix ncc; } import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } identity netconf { base sn:transport; base sn:inline-address; description "NETCONF is used as a transport for notification messages and state change notifications."; } augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receiver" { when 'derived-from(../../../transport, "nsn:netconf")'; =20 description "This augmentation allows NETCONF specific parameters to be=20 exposed for a receiver."; leaf netconf-endpoint { type leafref { path "/ncc:netconf-client/ncc:initiate/ncc:netconf-server" +=20 "/ncc:endpoints/ncc:endpoint/ncc:name"; } mandatory true; description "Remote client which need to initiate the NETCONF transport if=20 an existing NETCONF session from that client is not available."; } } =20 } Which results in: +--rw subscriptions +--rw subscription*=20 +--rw transport transport {configured}? +--rw receivers +--rw receiver*=20 +--rw nsn:netconf-endpoint leafref Eric =20 > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Jul 31 13:32:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0B6130E80 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:32:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SY91Y-Gu2OjR for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED7FE130E0C for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id b22-v6so11688681lfa.3 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:31:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UAYxSbw52dAH0OlhRcRxzKHTElNaJURiXkEvUOxc304=; b=GBBsXxOmqyvEngR7yEigR7rsDM05laM8W7wp6AcV5yBmIk3OPnX2LxRgY+uvL28Kqq VS91ItiROYR9oD2VXJjlarzzyM9/u9Pvf9QTpNCiPOfZW+j9S0lh/Xxv9mEONMXIawHg 0q7r/1yYKZXSyQYNtOD+R5F4N1rlkbM9u3Jkwm67gfr8cl15EWoa5WAqOWgIuJU0P6ab WQWBLvUy/hIrUb3r+5kcv7cFmSzQXqKHVhCaysqe7WeJmIvcQYxOuRj9y4C6JyDI7vla 8bt2jTFKk1Ucmng5Q4I2c4myyH3mV6H7xFjkma57axzZjHbjJbjMwolW1sCWywHbSK51 OVdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UAYxSbw52dAH0OlhRcRxzKHTElNaJURiXkEvUOxc304=; b=Zk6+wUbPQ5JtR7B3aUp1XEq9w8EhqjSmLbBCfxIxSnMI12OEFHas4hHzy0DWLd5o5J OeVaC4i31hHZoJ5EdQmoMYPh1hzfH8NRy97Yj/tTHzM7npobAq3YZtKfSpNZgQMuH1CD eNUeqpvX8O1LJtH2KWEnHLof7IHm4XwhXbruCFjPfQIYwuHaxeAxvBxWBW0UCAezsTYG R10Csb3dDAOU9aie+LHtPGSWsfZgJ4KjdSb3PviiusCR6bAI5iJt/iQr1NmBWZsxoBYH oucXaqYn6zeQs0iO9mKQaub/6lDd6OwmU2cMC9mjd+B18AIq7OrDI0/9ZLk6BQuRkzsj KOVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHkbRtVpZs/xCUB1IfHB3VNRxFgshQ2lM06Cpr8NWIIOHOfudNF NztjPIiYbFc9MIqy/7asSOjSWCyulRlgHepbz8W5Qw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpe5ZG66ILSURTODrNtsqGDxZVlnYqEDHFm+dY7EdTeJzzBB8R4UDsl2nt/uQo2gzNO5jsQ6roeFS15Kdp1UM8c= X-Received: by 2002:a19:c3c7:: with SMTP id t190-v6mr13572361lff.108.1533069116020; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:31:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:31:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <727ae35abd394a85812168615acce2d3@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180729.175356.1841285666617255654.mbj@tail-f.com> <77080682bf90495caec48436453e4750@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20180730.204142.1505732335534077415.mbj@tail-f.com> <20180731174827.n5r2jebon45s2cxy@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:31:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Martin Bjorklund , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000013b3b50572517875" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 20:32:02 -0000 --00000000000013b3b50572517875 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, July 31, 2018 1:48 PM > > > > On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 08:41:42PM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > > > > > > The empty mandatory choice does provide value since it requires that > > > some transport-specific parameters are configured. However, can we > > > assume that all transports require configuration parameters here? > > > > Can you have a receiver without any transport parameters? > > > > > It is probably safest to not have a mandatory choice, and instead > > > ensure that each transport augements the proper params -- and since > > > this is YANG 1.1, the transport params that are augmented can actually > > > be marked as mandatory. > > > > Frankly, an empty mandatory choice quite clearly says "this is > incomplete and > > unusable without an augmentation". > > My read above is the YANG doctor's position is that we should *not* use > the empty mandatory choice. Let me know if I got this wrong. > > I do not think a consensus call has been done yet, but I agree with Juergen and already raised the point that YANG conformance does not handle a "MUST augment" use-case very well. I prefer the MUST be in the description-stmt for the choice, instead of "mandatory true". (I prefer SHOULD but if the WG wants MUST) Andy > That would mean that each transport document supporting configured > subscriptions would then augment transport specific parameters to > "/subscriptions/subscription/receivers/receiver". And (assuming the > "single transport" decision of IETF100 isn't changed), that the identity > "transport" could be leveraged to enforce that only a single transport > specific set of credentials are associated with a receiver. > > A sample YANG augmentation for NETCONF would then look like: > > module ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications { > > prefix nsn; > > import ietf-netconf-client { prefix ncc; } > import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; } > > identity netconf { > base sn:transport; > base sn:inline-address; > description > "NETCONF is used as a transport for notification messages and > state change notifications."; > } > > augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn:receiver" { > when 'derived-from(../../../transport, "nsn:netconf")'; > description > "This augmentation allows NETCONF specific parameters to be > exposed for a receiver."; > leaf netconf-endpoint { > type leafref { > path "/ncc:netconf-client/ncc:initiate/ncc:netconf-server" + > "/ncc:endpoints/ncc:endpoint/ncc:name"; > } > mandatory true; > description > "Remote client which need to initiate the NETCONF transport if > an existing NETCONF session from that client is not available."; > } > } > } > > Which results in: > +--rw subscriptions > +--rw subscription* > +--rw transport transport {configured}? > +--rw receivers > +--rw receiver* > +--rw nsn:netconf-endpoint leafref > > Eric > > > > /js > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --00000000000013b3b50572517875 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) &= lt;evoit@cisco.com= > wrote:
> From: Juergen Sch= oenwaelder, July 31, 2018 1:48 PM
>
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 08:41:42PM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> >
> > The empty mandatory choice does provide value since it requires t= hat
> > some transport-specific parameters are configured.=C2=A0 However,= can we
> > assume that all transports require configuration parameters here?=
>
> Can you have a receiver without any transport parameters?
>
> > It is probably safest to not have a mandatory choice, and instead=
> > ensure that each transport augements the proper params -- and sin= ce
> > this is YANG 1.1, the transport params that are augmented can act= ually
> > be marked as mandatory.
>
> Frankly, an empty mandatory choice quite clearly says "this is in= complete and
> unusable without an augmentation".

My read above is the YANG doctor's position is that we should *not* use= the empty mandatory choice.=C2=A0 Let me know if I got this wrong.


I do not think a consensus call has be= en done yet, but I agree with Juergen
and already raised the poin= t that YANG conformance does not handle a
"MUST augment"= ; use-case very well.

I prefer the MUST be in the = description-stmt for the choice,
instead of "mandatory true&= quot;. (I prefer SHOULD but if the WG wants MUST)

=
Andy



= =C2=A0
That would mean that each transport document supporting configured subscrip= tions would then augment transport specific parameters to "/subscripti= ons/subscription/receivers/receiver".=C2=A0 =C2=A0And (assuming t= he "single transport" decision of IETF100 isn't changed), tha= t the identity "transport" could be leveraged to enforce that onl= y a single transport specific set of credentials are associated with a rece= iver.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

A sample YANG augmentation for NETCONF would then look like:

module ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications {

=C2=A0 prefix nsn;

=C2=A0 import ietf-netconf-client { prefix ncc; }
=C2=A0 import ietf-subscribed-notifications { prefix sn; }

=C2=A0 identity netconf {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 base sn:transport;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 base sn:inline-address;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "NETCONF is used as a transport for notification = messages and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0state change notifications.";
=C2=A0 }

=C2=A0 augment "/sn:subscriptions/sn:subscription/sn:receivers/sn= :receiver" {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0when 'derived-from(../../../transport, "nsn:netc= onf")';=C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0description
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "This augmentation allows NETCONF specific parame= ters to be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 exposed for a receiver.";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf netconf-endpoint {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type leafref {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 path "/ncc:netconf-client/ncc:initiat= e/ncc:netconf-server" +
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "/ncc:endpoint= s/ncc:endpoint/ncc:name";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mandatory true;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Remote client which need to initiate the = NETCONF transport if
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 an existing NETCONF session from that client is= not available.";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 }=C2=A0
}

Which results in:
=C2=A0 +--rw subscriptions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--rw subscription*
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--rw transport=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0transport=C2=A0 {configured}?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--rw receivers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--rw receiver*
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--rw nsn:netconf-endpoint= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leafref

Eric


> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs U= niversity Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1= | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= ;https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--00000000000013b3b50572517875-- From nobody Tue Jul 31 13:48:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9B7130DD3 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ngJO_EVHW_kS for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9997A130F8B for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id j19-v6so14903257ljc.7 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:48:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lBPC+LWgPuhCqM9yWC6EZCQ4aPqeJuokarzO1Wrr1vg=; b=etFtb11UyhK7kGNEz+Iwe1iCapUHQ3rF1ucO/sW14/XuWGLGHU6H3Hzapzktpj3XJu 6XwJEsZM96gGqYW4EdV1fNoflGjEUNRUBvDzIpc2M0MjPXL/kjLGU02DQ8fZG38N0qPy yVVrBqGjOm71rLgh7elSYzEZbjBfjyL52cjF2l7eK3RRfPAGm5hYovQaRV2mAO72KvxT pn9yxmMpnSaj9t6btoEDCPCxUjGrwN+/W2wG/szcUiDy7fqSGToqIFqcShffS77WNsx1 C3jdtZx0Jdu0zoTF9r9a0yV4mEUZTNTz0XM4cK63NO21THnhbwZNjb0wvTgK9EMWDlCj qdhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lBPC+LWgPuhCqM9yWC6EZCQ4aPqeJuokarzO1Wrr1vg=; b=tSLZ+DjGm2Cuyj+QGtk1pRelu7+RksNLHoeLMykoCrXF3LIpGWVhUHLUNEbzEUunZo bYy4JyFfZHpqpBJKW2noau5PzKJ0X72cA1pok3M3IHMut2+glV9bmfCq7nJzOidYf3sI +mhKKSnbaoFxyQbEsDbWcn4fraJbR75PzWaKXk6wy5v8PIO6S7iUkPc0irsCx9AlqNUd QJmyH89p4aXwKmbb+dciRV95M+YbTqOS9W6LdXuJNDbc6HIg7hKOmFE8HxwY7Y5SNk5I OuL2y438ZQqD2OIrMopQ1DHJXOJPlROFwDZ9t+fzL4TvC4plklEYb8zvd8U/NBrLSPe5 OeMg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlENeGFqZ54OnD/P8zu1yFi0ohDV7khG1Ham7wnjsSpPe8EJYJAr ppKg7VUCmZzg3D6mEKchB8BhoKuuDeRi6My3V3fq4w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpepfDXNEyuLhnZyxq3/GQkPSz0oR0hcUys5p/JMj1NZ8TnkYsPvM5eyNF6xLisK/l8LN9+VaeXxp+2QwqgOWwA= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9a16:: with SMTP id o22-v6mr10713427lji.17.1533070112795; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:48:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:aa46:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:48:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB406AA@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <44B0A74E-CCF0-4E9B-846A-1F46E90AEB5E@juniper.net> <20180731.165103.950825344221422538.mbj@tail-f.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EB406AA@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:48:31 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Clemm Cc: Martin Bjorklund , "kwatsen@juniper.net" , "evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007d3ba9057251b3d7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 20:48:40 -0000 --0000000000007d3ba9057251b3d7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Alexander Clemm < alexander.clemm@huawei.com> wrote: > I am wondering why we are reopening the issue of multiple > encodings/transports per receiver vs per subscription? > > Having single transport / encoding per subscription is a simpler design > (feedback from implementors; simplifies dealing with any error conditions > due to encoding that would affect one receiver but not others in the same > subscription; Einar has explained this in the past) and, while I am in > general a fan of general design, there does not seem to be business > requirements and scenarios that demand this - and even if there were, thi= s > would constitute merely an optimization (since if you have different > receivers who want different encodings/tranport, you can always simply > create another subscription). > > If in the future there is really desire to add this as an additional > feature, we can put this into a -bis version. (Adding stuff will be easi= er > than taking things away.) Let's just be done. > > +1, except IMO there are many higher priority work items than a -bis to this not-even-released draft. > --- Alex > Andy > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin > > Bjorklund > > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 7:51 AM > > To: kwatsen@juniper.net > > Cc: evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org; netconf@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? > > > > Kent Watsen wrote: > > > [removing yang-doctors list, and updating subject line accordingly] > > > > > > > > > >> > Why do all receivers of a subscription have to use the same > > transport? > > > >> > > > >> This was something that Martin and Eric worked out before we did > > > >> the first Last Call. Eric doesn't seem to know the particular > > > >> reason, other than Martin seems to think it=E2=80=99s easier. > > > > > > > > No; I personally also prefer a design where each receiver has its > > > > own transport + encoding. > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > > > The original model had a common "encoding" for all receivers, and > > > > then a receiver-specific transport - I think this is even worse, > > > > > > Agreed. > > > > > > > > > > and suggested to have transport + encoding defined together > > > > preferrably receiver-specifc or else common for all receivers. > > > > > > > > If the WG now believes that the transport + encoding should be done > > > > per receiver, this should be fairly easy to change. > > > > > > I also prefer per receiver, and I think that doing so will simplify > > > the model, as neither the mandatory "transport" nor the [not > > > mandatory?] "encoding" leaves have to be specified. > > > > > > In particular, my thoughts are that the "notif" model should provide > > > for the encoding selection, if needed (it's not needed for NETCONF, o= r > > > COAP I imagine). > > > > I agree. I think this would be a cleaner design. > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > In the case of RESTCONF, we could update the ietf-restconf-client and > > > ietf-restconf-server models to include an "encodings" leaf-list, to > > > configure the RESTCONF server which encodings it should support. We > > > likely need to do something similar to configure which HTTP versions > > > should be supported. Now, in a general RC server, the server could > > > support both but, if the restconf-notif draft has its own list of > > > restconf-servers (i.e., it uses the "restconf-server-grouping" itself= , > > > see my July 19 email for a YANG example), then a constraint could be > > > added limiting the number "supported" to just one. Thus, when the RC > > > server reboots, and connects to the receiver and *automatically* (no > > > client RPC) starts pushing notifications, it can know what encoding t= o > > > use. > > > > > > I'm still unsure if its legal for an RC server to automatically push > > > notifications without a client-initiated RPC of any sort, and I'm als= o > > > uncertain if supporting *configured* subscriptions for NC or RC is > > > needed (see my message July 20 email). So, some of this may work > > > itself out as we progress. > > > > > > I know that we're not defining the *configured* notif drafts in this > > > first effort, the we are publishing the SN draft with a configuration > > > model, my only concern now is configuration model presented in the SN > > > draft. > > > > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > --0000000000007d3ba9057251b3d7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Alexander Clemm <= ;alexander.= clemm@huawei.com> wrote:
I = am wondering why we are reopening the issue of multiple encodings/transport= s per receiver vs per subscription?=C2=A0

Having single transport / encoding per subscription is a simpler design (fe= edback from implementors; simplifies dealing with any error conditions due = to encoding that would affect one receiver but not others in the same subsc= ription; Einar has explained this in the past) and, while I am in general a= fan of general design, there does not seem to be business requirements and= scenarios that demand this - and even if there were, this would constitute= merely an optimization (since if you have different receivers who want dif= ferent encodings/tranport, you can always simply create another subscriptio= n).=C2=A0

If in the future there is really desire to add this as an additional featur= e, we can put this into a -bis version.=C2=A0 (Adding stuff will be easier = than taking things away.)=C2=A0 Let's just be done.=C2=A0


+1, except IMO there are many higher p= riority work items than a -bis to this not-even-released draft.
<= br>
=C2=A0
--- Alex

Andy
=C2=A0

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Netconf [mailto:netc= onf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> Bjorklund
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 7:51 AM
> To: kwatsen@juniper.net
> Cc: evoit=3D40cisco.com@= dmarc.ietf.org; netconf@ietf.o= rg
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? >
> Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper= .net> wrote:
> > [removing yang-doctors list, and updating subject line accordingl= y]
> >
> >
> > >> > Why do all receivers of a subscription have to use = the same
> transport?
> > >>
> > >> This was something that Martin and Eric worked out befor= e we did
> > >> the first Last Call.=C2=A0 Eric doesn't seem to know= the particular
> > >> reason, other than Martin seems to think it=E2=80=99s ea= sier.
> > >
> > > No; I personally also prefer a design where each receiver ha= s its
> > > own transport + encoding.
> >
> > +1
> >
> >
> > > The original model had a common "encoding" for all= receivers, and
> > > then a receiver-specific transport - I think this is even wo= rse,
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> >
> > > and suggested to have transport + encoding defined together<= br> > > > preferrably receiver-specifc or else common for all receiver= s.
> > >
> > > If the WG now believes that the transport + encoding should = be done
> > > per receiver, this should be fairly easy to change.
> >
> > I also prefer per receiver, and I think that doing so will simpli= fy
> > the model, as neither the mandatory "transport" nor the= [not
> > mandatory?] "encoding" leaves have to be specified.
> >
> > In particular, my thoughts are that the "notif" model s= hould provide
> > for the encoding selection, if needed (it's not needed for NE= TCONF, or
> > COAP I imagine).
>
> I agree.=C2=A0 I think this would be a cleaner design.
>
>
> /martin
>
>
> >
> > In the case of RESTCONF, we could update the ietf-restconf-client= and
> > ietf-restconf-server models to include an "encodings" l= eaf-list, to
> > configure the RESTCONF server which encodings it should support.= =C2=A0 We
> > likely need to do something similar to configure which HTTP versi= ons
> > should be supported.=C2=A0 Now, in a general RC server, the serve= r could
> > support both but, if the restconf-notif draft has its own list of=
> > restconf-servers (i.e., it uses the "restconf-server-groupin= g" itself,
> > see my July 19 email for a YANG example), then a constraint could= be
> > added limiting the number "supported" to just one.=C2= =A0 Thus, when the RC
> > server reboots, and connects to the receiver and *automatically* = (no
> > client RPC) starts pushing notifications, it can know what encodi= ng to
> > use.
> >
> > I'm still unsure if its legal for an RC server to automatical= ly push
> > notifications without a client-initiated RPC of any sort, and I&#= 39;m also
> > uncertain if supporting *configured* subscriptions for NC or RC i= s
> > needed (see my message July 20 email).=C2=A0 So, some of this may= work
> > itself out as we progress.
> >
> > I know that we're not defining the *configured* notif drafts = in this
> > first effort, the we are publishing the SN draft with a configura= tion
> > model, my only concern now is configuration model presented in th= e SN
> > draft.
> >
> >
> > Kent // contributor
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf=
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<= br>

--0000000000007d3ba9057251b3d7-- From nobody Tue Jul 31 17:01:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB65130E96 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 17:01:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0SasuNWxPTLy for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 17:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7AC3130E93 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 17:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108157.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w7100Moq006125; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 17:01:32 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=ls9o9FNJerUwMphiJyYUPMA+ulXAtKq+FlsaH2z1ygQ=; b=QVd7JQh5oakr6k4GG3ZTYmvFMwJG1daWk40n4zTMnwsImJNy26T8y48cWfum9hemcim3 z+s6SVtSXUOzA81Q2FUE1YJ+b1KA57ccFR3NVUmzKencnF+RHIYd3tfx8GxXz2YiHm+7 T4RLizBH8c4C9ymMEAFNGLAXyKkJBQMj10u70wzuAPaJEZdUtYbWspL458i66LbGMsXu dCWUewxRka8sdMBLql79fEaLosms+Uis+s186aco9OxWPH1/38Q31HwHFMivrHLcYd0h e6zSuN1Q4sgvlIXjDwyrNUu3B3zgYQNbg31Ss0zwKQ9R/Z3scKCH8JupSFxym62G0zLZ PQ== Received: from nam02-sn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam02lp0018.outbound.protection.outlook.com [216.32.180.18]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2kjrp412p9-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 31 Jul 2018 17:01:32 -0700 Received: from DM6PR05MB4665.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (20.176.109.202) by DM6PR05MB4907.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (20.176.112.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1017.8; Wed, 1 Aug 2018 00:01:29 +0000 Received: from DM6PR05MB4665.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e0bc:6a82:571d:258]) by DM6PR05MB4665.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e0bc:6a82:571d:258%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1017.010; Wed, 1 Aug 2018 00:01:29 +0000 From: Kent Watsen To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Martin Bjorklund , "evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "netconf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? 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