From marc@webhistory.org Wed May 8 17:35:24 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 585BF21F8FF5 for ; Wed, 8 May 2013 17:35:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.391 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.391 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.207, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XkQ7DIxqZlow for ; Wed, 8 May 2013 17:35:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newsmtp.well.com (newsmtp.well.com [107.20.247.102]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF35C21F8FE9 for ; Wed, 8 May 2013 17:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.well.com (zimbra.well.com [10.68.151.47]) by newsmtp.well.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r490ZFqD003367 for ; Wed, 8 May 2013 17:35:15 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.well.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDD33400077 for ; Wed, 8 May 2013 17:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.well.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.well.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Q2m2Efc55WE for ; Wed, 8 May 2013 17:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (99-117-98-20.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [99.117.98.20]) by zimbra.well.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8FB923400073 for ; Wed, 8 May 2013 17:35:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Marc Weber Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-29-1057971079 Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 17:35:11 -0700 Message-Id: <107CF371-438D-40C8-B16C-DBE1D8346D72@webhistory.org> To: nethistory@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Subject: [Nethistory] Updates X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 May 2013 00:35:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail-29-1057971079 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear All, I'm writing to update you on networking history developments around the = IETF, and to events around the Networking History BoF, The Networking = History BoF we held at the Orlando IETF in March drew nearly 200 people = when we expected about 75; thanks to all of you for your interest, and = to then-IETF Chair Russ Housley for giving us the generous 90 minute = time slot.=20 BoF instigator Elizabeth Feinler and I presented the basic problem: = Critical records of the development of the online world are not being = systematically preserved. We then described the key goals of the = Networking History list, which include creating directories to help = match at-risk net historical materials around the world with the = permanent archives that may preserve them. Some of those materials could = be moldering in your basement or garage. Dave Crocker then led a = brainstorm on ways of accomplishing the goals above.=20 I also discussed ways of helping institutions that generate critical = materials capture more of them as they are produced, rather than years = after the fact. The IETF is actually a good starting example of this; = RFCs and several other key records are archived in real time. But even = within the IETF much remains to be done.=20 You can find the charter and the slides we presented at: = http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/history.html. The Agenda is here. = I'll be writing an article on the meeting and its goals for the IETF = journal this summer.=20 Since the BoF we've continued our collaboration with Brad Fidler at = UCLA, who has brought in two very talented interns to work on ways of = bringing together historical materials with the archives that could save = them. Jacob Ferrari is currently investigating tools for collecting = information on both repositories and at-risk materials, and Federico = Novak is exploring ways this might apply in South America as a starting = point.=20 Jacob put some of our preliminary thoughts about which data to collect = on archiving institutions into a draft spreadsheet here: = https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0ArgbD8tia0KcdF9vTjlLcHl5Z25= JajB1dFJlb3RaOXc&usp=3Dsharing Please invite anybody you think would be interested to join this = Networking History mailing list at = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory.=20 One of the networking history efforts we invited to present at the end = of the BoF was the Asia Internet History project. This group has already = done some of the preliminary planning for how to set up networking = history point people in each major country or region, to address its = particular history. BoF instigator Elizabeth Feinler has written up a = draft proposal for how we might apply this to our goals of matching = materials with repositories, which she'll send separately. We'll = appreciate your comments and suggestions.=20 Best regards, Marc Weber=20 Networking History BoF Chair Internet History Program Founder and Curator, Computer History Museum Marc Weber | marc@webhistory.org | +1 415 282 6868=20 Internet History Program Founder and Curator, Computer History Museum = =20 1401 N Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View CA 94043 = computerhistory.org/nethistory Co-founder, Web History Center and Project, webhistory.org=20 --Apple-Mail-29-1057971079 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii http://www.ietf.o= rg/proceedings/86/history.html. The Agenda is here. I'll be writing an article on the = meeting and its goals  for the IETF journal this = summer. 

Since the BoF we've continued our = collaboration with Brad Fidler at UCLA, who has brought in two very = talented interns to work on ways of bringing together historical = materials with the archives that could save them. Jacob Ferrari is = currently investigating tools for collecting information on both = repositories and at-risk materials, and Federico Novak is exploring ways = this might apply in South America as a starting = point. 

Jacob put some of our preliminary = thoughts about which data to collect on archiving institutions into a = draft spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0ArgbD8tia= 0KcdF9vTjlLcHl5Z25JajB1dFJlb3RaOXc&usp=3Dsharing

Please invite anybody you think would be interested to join this = Networking History mailing list at https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory. 

One = of the networking history efforts we invited to present at the end of = the BoF was the Asia Internet History project. This group has already = done some of the preliminary planning for how to set up networking = history point people in each major country or region, to address its = particular history. BoF instigator Elizabeth Feinler has written up a = draft proposal for how we might apply this to our goals of matching = materials with repositories, which she'll send separately. We'll = appreciate your comments and = suggestions. 

Best = regards,

Marc Weber 
Networking = History BoF Chair
Internet History = Program Founder and Curator, Computer History = Museum


Marc = Weber  |   marc@webhistory.org  |&n= bsp;  +1 415 282 6868 
Internet History Program = Founder and Curator, Computer History Museum       =      
1401 N Shoreline = Blvd., Mountain View CA 94043 webhistory.org 

= --Apple-Mail-29-1057971079-- From feinler@earthlink.net Wed May 22 14:17:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A6311E8106 for ; Wed, 22 May 2013 14:17:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N37LzgLd-u6z for ; Wed, 22 May 2013 14:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3A811E80A2 for ; Wed, 22 May 2013 14:17:44 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=WHpBxsmurhmQQjipkKR+eOqPxoKvQRhDZlA02XGbf5sOJNzkdkwLAmlY+wUzQS18; h=Received:From:Content-Type:Subject:Date:Message-Id:Cc:To:Mime-Version:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.245.23.104] (helo=[10.0.1.3]) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1UfGPn-00082U-Kn; Wed, 22 May 2013 17:17:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth Feinler Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-108238754 Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 14:17:42 -0700 Message-Id: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> To: nethistory@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-ELNK-Trace: 3e5b4c0061061515d780f4a490ca6956d5d4673fe7faad8654fe57cf83bd3e243c0487a0bd05e908350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.245.23.104 Cc: Feinler Elizabeth Subject: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 21:17:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail-1-108238754 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Dear All, At the IETF BoF in Orlando we learned that Kilam Chon and his colleagues = have made a good start on a structure for collecting the history of = networking. See: = https://sites.google.com/site/internethistoryasia/country-region-informati= on=20 =20 I would like to suggest that we build on that structure in the following = way: 1.) Use Chon=92s list of countries to build a tree-structured framework = of networking history contacts and activities unique to each country 2.) Find a volunteer for each country to act as that country=92s = Network History Liaison (NHL) The Network History Liaison would: 1.) Act as a =93go to=94 point of contact for anyone who has a computer = or network history donation but does not know where or how to begin to find a = suitable facility for the donation.=20 2.) Develop a list of repositories (if any) and significant archival = collections (if any) located=20 within his or her country along with relevant contact = information.. Provide liaison=20 to significant repositories that may or may not reside in his or = her country; 3.) Collaborate via the nethistory@ietf.org mailing list to develop an = online worldwide network=20 history information framework. 4.) Help develop posting and trading practices for duplicate donations, = and like activities=20 to be determined as the need arises. 5.) Help facilitate the deposition of important networking history = artifacts and archives at established repositories that will protect and preserve them in = perpetuity. =20 6.) Promote the importance of saving the history of networking for = posterity. The Network History Liaison would: 1.) NOT accept donations as part of his or her role; but would only act = as an information liaison to facilities that do accept donations. 2.) NOT act as an appraiser for any donation or proposed donation, or = at any time assess a monetary value to any item or collection. Each NHL can pull together a team of volunteers or choose to work alone = to help develop the structure and/or provide liaison for his or her = country. - It is assumed that what is being collected and what aspect of network = history originated=20 in any given country would be different from other countries; however,=20= there would be common information elements such as: - Name of collection institution - Scope of collection - Online or offline or both - Where institution is located - Contact person - Is the collector a legitimate repository with endowment The number and nature of these common elements to be developed by the = group. - It is also assumed that any donor has the right to offer his or her = donation to any=20 collector and that any collector has the right to accept or refuse any = donation=20 Please note that this is a :=94strawman=94 approach that builds upon = work already begun, the details of which will be further developed to = suit the need.=20 --Apple-Mail-1-108238754 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Dear All,
At the IETF BoF in Orlando we learned = that Kilam Chon and his colleagues have made a good start on a  = structure for collecting the history of networking.

 
I would like to suggest that we build on that structure in the = following way:

1.)  Use Chon=92s list of countries to build a = tree-structured framework of networking
    =   history contacts and activities unique to each country

     = (NHL)

The Network History Liaison would:

1.)  Act as a =93go = to=94 point of contact for anyone who has a computer or network = history
      donation but does = not know where or how to begin to find a suitable facility for = the
      = donation. 

2.)  Develop a list of repositories (if any) and = significant archival collections (if any) located 
      within his or her country along with = relevant contact information..  Provide liaison 
      to significant repositories that may or = may not reside in his or her country;
3.)  Collaborate via the nethistory@ietf.org mailing list = to develop an online worldwide network 
      history information framework.

4.)  Help develop = posting and trading practices for duplicate donations, and like = activities 
       to be = determined as the need arises.
5.)  Help facilitate the = deposition of important networking history artifacts and archives = at
      established repositories that will = protect and preserve them in perpetuity.  

6.)  Promote the = importance of saving the history of networking for posterity.

The Network History = Liaison would:

1.)  NOT accept donations as part of his or her role; but = would only act as an information
     = liaison to facilities that do accept donations.

2.) NOT act as an = appraiser for any donation or  proposed donation, or at
     any time assess a monetary value to any = item or collection.

Each NHL can pull together a team of volunteers or choose to = work alone to help develop the structure and/or provide liaison for his = or her country.

- It is assumed that what is being collected and what aspect = of  network history originated 
  in any = given country would be different from other countries; = however, 
  there would be common = information elements such as:
- Name of = collection institution
- Scope of collection
= - Online or offline or both
- Where = institution is located
- Contact person
= - Is the collector a legitimate repository with = endowment
  The number and nature of these = common elements to be developed by the group.

- It is also assumed that = any donor has the right to offer his or her donation to = any 
  collector and that any collector = has the right to accept or refuse any donation 

Please note that this is = a :=94strawman=94 approach that builds upon work already begun, the = details of which will be further developed to suit the = need. 


= --Apple-Mail-1-108238754-- From swb@internet2.edu Thu May 23 04:43:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF1221F9670 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 04:43:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2LL7xjE7TXav for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 04:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from db8outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (mail-db8lp0185.outbound.messaging.microsoft.com [213.199.154.185]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AFC221F9676 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 04:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail133-db8-R.bigfish.com (10.174.8.241) by DB8EHSOBE025.bigfish.com (10.174.4.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 23 May 2013 11:43:07 +0000 Received: from mail133-db8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail133-db8-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7040E4A0080; Thu, 23 May 2013 11:43:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.237.5; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:BY2PRD0811HT005.namprd08.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: 10 X-BigFish: S10(zzzz1f42h1d77h1ee6h1de0h1fdah1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ah1fc6h1082kzzz2dh2a8h668h839h947hd25he5bhf0ah1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah13b6h1441h1504h1537h153bh162dh1631h1758h1765h18e1h190ch1946h19b4h19c3h19ceh1ad9h1b0ah1d0ch1d2eh1d3fh1b1cn1b1bi1155h) Received: from mail133-db8 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail133-db8 (MessageSwitch) id 1369309385413880_6739; Thu, 23 May 2013 11:43:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from DB8EHSMHS032.bigfish.com (unknown [10.174.8.246]) by mail133-db8.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495574600FE; Thu, 23 May 2013 11:43:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BY2PRD0811HT005.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (157.56.237.5) by DB8EHSMHS032.bigfish.com (10.174.4.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 23 May 2013 11:43:02 +0000 Received: from swbi2mbp.local (67.241.75.185) by pod51019.outlook.com (10.255.91.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.311.1; Thu, 23 May 2013 11:42:51 +0000 Message-ID: <519E00B4.5080600@internet2.edu> Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 07:42:44 -0400 From: Scott Brim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elizabeth Feinler References: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [67.241.75.185] X-OriginatorOrg: internet2.edu Cc: nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 11:43:16 -0000 Jake, this feels very top-down. There are already a dozen attempts at Internet history. In other areas we've found that everyone has their own way of doing things, and attempts at unification are likely to fail. I suggest that instead of unification you try for federation -- find a way to include existing attempts, and not require them to reorganize. Scott From jabley@hopcount.ca Thu May 23 05:10:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 265DE21F93D1 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 05:10:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wh77CE7ZFt7K for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 05:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x22b.google.com (mail-pb0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4869321F93BC for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 05:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f43.google.com with SMTP id ma3so2830391pbc.30 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 05:10:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hopcount.ca; s=google; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=zKQzI1spSh/4M8fWKRnJISC568/ce7OmGoSzzHYaAB8=; b=JoIwjBICrxe3OALCl6n8wNpsA2YSJmDwM84G/V31AA+bwnFZhaU+BUiwIqbgPcSVZd AXtHqFOqLJJlfJ9FoI1BuLmIdLroGE0jc7qWPD9OEbu1U6dK82S7sJOfNv9UQqQmH+NU UdrKlykUJO7y3RuJTVR8d130u5l0o4RQhvlZM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=zKQzI1spSh/4M8fWKRnJISC568/ce7OmGoSzzHYaAB8=; b=g3BdPeaaBPZdXDLPbNB0/Aa36VjOhVedXx6pIz7DuOQ6RMY/SNnJKOjiZswYs+Q4gO t6c4e6ecRe29PRemNQh4ccokjZsx0Auod7TT89fHkrTePoBHgFv3Foriuu0WazUw54O4 Gqr6Kk6LvKK+aebJSzif42xYn30Koebrn/kZb7xSJDQx6gRnhjGjp4Mr5DxN+j3GIyVw qEDCSN3hfPGKgFjoW1D0cydllRRCFYUwV4fCeI99C8ujry9e6MGrG0WBGQ40GfTu88ul LmIk37dWDEAVv/4ImXFGB8uYjgiYUxRofCGozNAgPa0pD9aPNNJBhXQHfTbUxLy1KY++ 1S3g== X-Received: by 10.68.228.195 with SMTP id sk3mr12459141pbc.103.1369311040942; Thu, 23 May 2013 05:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:4900:1042:100:75e7:3af2:f4:fbbe? ([2001:4900:1042:100:75e7:3af2:f4:fbbe]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id sg4sm11550429pbc.7.2013.05.23.05.10.39 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 23 May 2013 05:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: <519E00B4.5080600@internet2.edu> Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 08:10:36 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> <519E00B4.5080600@internet2.edu> To: Scott Brim X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkJbFdk2WUMX95vy5EMQSW3NwcSoMlcDLfQWujfEy29fug3rduY1vNCrxMJJoLtzZFzI+Qp Cc: Elizabeth Feinler , nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 12:10:42 -0000 On 2013-05-23, at 07:42, Scott Brim wrote: > Jake, this feels very top-down. There are already a dozen attempts at > Internet history. In other areas we've found that everyone has their > own way of doing things, and attempts at unification are likely to = fail. > I suggest that instead of unification you try for federation -- find a > way to include existing attempts, and not require them to reorganize. I made a brief presentation at a NZNOG meeting in Hamilton a few years = ago entitled "The History of Peering in New Zealand". One entertaining = hour later (NZNOG is good for audience participation) there were two or = three people who volunteered to start a wiki based on the notes they had = taken during the session. The wiki subsequently became a free-form = repository for facts and anecdotes. InternetNZ later commissioned a book = based (in part) on that material. (The book was kind of governance-heavy and missed a lot of the = operational war stories that I found more entertaining.) This to me seemed like a good approach to Internet history: the anarchic = commons free-edit with no pretension of journalistic integrity; the = resulting pile of clues provides a basis for actual research. Joe= From juliao@braga.eti.br Thu May 23 06:24:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2EC21F9330 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 06:24:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eNRu3BHuRf0I for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 06:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x22b.google.com (mail-ve0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9D121F92F5 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 06:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f171.google.com with SMTP id m1so2353145ves.16 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 06:24:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-gm-message-state; bh=T/Evg9pKZ1LRIXuLV8hEsn0eIsPZUM6IDv/hv9KONcg=; b=kVHBcIfFUlHyxqPyJSQXo+wbFyGUZA+6s0J//OCvtZpacwDiykTddk/U+6FZyfMqFM 5woIwr7ROoxItqcCS9F7BoEbXslu34UTVRT1+/gfmw+i/39KpzIo3NloE1jYsMc15L5A dZZijSrcAV+RZU4wyXN7B7EVjUhp3cCl4AyVwXQNb3Ctir++Rt1aSBsG1S29jWOVYvA/ TG94fr1OzFmJmR2y8jhu7/rdp7U4hgM8K9cn2jp661bF7YHgbUYg4qsnqYx6smLxBlY4 AxaO0VSe78mqEuYdqEAU7R4lTv5ADI5y4hBWLET6DfQ7q+7aS4eXe7kGP0r6ywBlrBX/ rLbg== X-Received: by 10.220.200.200 with SMTP id ex8mr5221166vcb.43.1369315478329; Thu, 23 May 2013 06:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:1294:1295:1295::167? ([2001:1294:1295:1295::167]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id k15sm4609794vde.11.2013.05.23.06.24.29 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 23 May 2013 06:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <519E188B.3040406@braga.eti.br> Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 10:24:27 -0300 From: Juliao Braga User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nethistory@ietf.org, j@braga.net.br References: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQleoNLS5RnFFYTXcKjgmbpjEIp6bK7Tman+ESwNZ66WvxHv01AgK0Y1N8Qn2QlgrjZeMe4D Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 13:24:40 -0000 Nice job! Congratulations! I would recommend to think in developing an ontology about the History of the Internet. Starting with a vocabulary to be followed by all involved and interested, worldwide. There are several methodologies to target these work. An excellent, for anyone interested: Building Ontologies & Knowledge Elicitation by Alan Rector & colleagues (http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~rector/modules/CS646/Lecture-Handouts/Lect-2-Ontology-building-2007.pdf) Julião Em 22/05/2013 18:17, Elizabeth Feinler escreveu: > > > Dear All, > > At the IETF BoF in Orlando we learned that Kilam Chon and his colleagues > have made a good start on a structure for collecting the history of > networking. > > See: > https://sites.google.com/site/internethistoryasia/country-region-information > From sm@resistor.net Thu May 23 08:17:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A3511E813F for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 08:17:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VpW+0UFSCklM for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 08:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AFF011E8132 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 08:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r4NFHS92016466; Thu, 23 May 2013 08:17:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1369322255; bh=Wg823iztISnQX2uR92y/NvMs9VrjF1NQ3MF/1Dg6Czw=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=muo6EqGizHLOOhdvCHPA7K0x5WSQ/70YNjjU60rPkx9wbZGixNMwEM4nqZ2rSTXdm T4XUmgXLRgWm5NrNdIZixl5lMr5kvaWoV2njJHppglxAscu4tRrKpcoENRxgT7scMw CITVciMj/tueFH5tKTMEDegICAWvgaXGipbx+eRE= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1369322255; i=@resistor.net; bh=Wg823iztISnQX2uR92y/NvMs9VrjF1NQ3MF/1Dg6Czw=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=QoHD9Na/hKNbgkEVCjJknwcc9w5JTfODaV4HfRR0PgvlNpObMWRvls1UFtNLrvuz4 XTlRQe8vLq2jn/AzTz3F9PZm20ApeyaaO9FX9T2je6R8IsLqH3zH0E3azoFtltBa50 xyvNa0RZMyxpplWJsE7DKfA17Xsarjhhm+Vy4Il4= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130523080242.06dd24c8@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 08:12:13 -0700 To: Joe Abley , Scott Brim From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> <519E00B4.5080600@internet2.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: Kilnam Chon , Elizabeth Feinler , nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 15:17:45 -0000 At 05:10 23-05-2013, Joe Abley wrote: >I made a brief presentation at a NZNOG meeting in Hamilton a few >years ago entitled "The History of Peering in New Zealand". One >entertaining hour later (NZNOG is good for audience participation) >there were two or three people who volunteered to start a wiki based >on the notes they had taken during the session. The wiki >subsequently became a free-form repository for facts and anecdotes. >InternetNZ later commissioned a book based (in part) on that material. > >(The book was kind of governance-heavy and missed a lot of the >operational war stories that I found more entertaining.) > >This to me seemed like a good approach to Internet history: the >anarchic commons free-edit with no pretension of journalistic >integrity; the resulting pile of clues provides a basis for actual research. The approach mentioned above looks practical. I suggest using it as a starting point instead of a top-down approach. Regards, -sm From feinler@earthlink.net Thu May 23 12:16:52 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D5821F8899 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 12:16:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.929, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id twtgP6AMgxkU for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 12:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E28721F88BF for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 11:50:09 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mQgp36gfQMoFAdj2NaSR4kfhVKIKpCmOYb/EGuUgwOthdomrUjoHadcssvefhKdf; h=Received:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Message-Id:References:To:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.245.23.104] (helo=[10.0.1.3]) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1UfaaV-0000gs-6m; Thu, 23 May 2013 14:50:08 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-185782329 From: Elizabeth Feinler In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 11:50:06 -0700 Message-Id: References: To: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-ELNK-Trace: 3e5b4c0061061515d780f4a490ca6956d5d4673fe7faad8689510b058574d7c96fb31fe56e220927350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.245.23.104 Cc: Feinler Elizabeth Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Nethistory Digest, Vol 2, Issue 2 X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 19:16:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail-1-185782329 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Great to see a discussion beginning! =20 I think I was not clear about what I was proposing as a possible = beginning framework. Let me state up front that the mission of this discussion is - Finding/Helping networking history donors - Finding the history - Saving the history and not Writing the history of networking. What I think we need to address is: 1.) Developing a well-known, easy process to follow for anyone = who wants to be a donor 2.) Developing a long-term sustainable process for saving the = history of networking history for posterity. =20 It is true that part of the Asian History work is dedicated to writing = networking history itself. Whether that is a right approach or not is = not an issue here. Their effort has come up with a list of countries; = and behind those countries in many cases are real people, who may or may = not be willing to be a "first responder" so to speak for someone with a = donation. If they don't want to fill that role, at least they are = familiar with and interested in the history for their country and could = possibly recommend someone to fill the NHL slot and/or help identify who = has important collections. Consequently, it is a place to start. I based my thinking for a framework on the model that the Network = Technical Liaison played in the early days of the internet. There was a = contact at each site (in our case, country) called the Technical Liaison = who was the "go to" person for that site (country). The Liaison didn't = personally handle all the problems at that site (country), he simply = had a pretty good idea of who could and passed the word along. In some = cases only one person was needed as Liaison and could handle all the = problems; in other cases there was a whole hierarchy of contacts behind = the Liaison of which he was aware and used as needed. This process was = simple but it really worked and could be adopted here. As I mentioned this was just a "strawman" proposal to get us all = thinking. Please feel free to comment/criticize/revise or whatever. Jake >=20 >=20 > From: Elizabeth Feinler > Date: May 22, 2013 2:17:42 PM PDT > To: nethistory@ietf.org > Cc: Feinler Elizabeth > Subject: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible = methodology >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Dear All, >=20 > At the IETF BoF in Orlando we learned that Kilam Chon and his = colleagues have made a good start on a structure for collecting the = history of networking. >=20 > See: = https://sites.google.com/site/internethistoryasia/country-region-informati= on=20 > =20 > I would like to suggest that we build on that structure in the = following way: >=20 > 1.) Use Chon=92s list of countries to build a tree-structured = framework of networking > history contacts and activities unique to each country >=20 > 2.) Find a volunteer for each country to act as that country=92s = Network History Liaison > (NHL) >=20 > The Network History Liaison would: >=20 > 1.) Act as a =93go to=94 point of contact for anyone who has a = computer or network history > donation but does not know where or how to begin to find a = suitable facility for the > donation.=20 >=20 > 2.) Develop a list of repositories (if any) and significant archival = collections (if any) located=20 > within his or her country along with relevant contact = information.. Provide liaison=20 > to significant repositories that may or may not reside in his or = her country; >=20 > 3.) Collaborate via the nethistory@ietf.org mailing list to develop = an online worldwide network=20 > history information framework. >=20 > 4.) Help develop posting and trading practices for duplicate = donations, and like activities=20 > to be determined as the need arises. >=20 > 5.) Help facilitate the deposition of important networking history = artifacts and archives at > established repositories that will protect and preserve them in = perpetuity. =20 >=20 > 6.) Promote the importance of saving the history of networking for = posterity. >=20 > The Network History Liaison would: >=20 > 1.) NOT accept donations as part of his or her role; but would only = act as an information > liaison to facilities that do accept donations. >=20 > 2.) NOT act as an appraiser for any donation or proposed donation, or = at > any time assess a monetary value to any item or collection. >=20 > Each NHL can pull together a team of volunteers or choose to work = alone to help develop the structure and/or provide liaison for his or = her country. >=20 > - It is assumed that what is being collected and what aspect of = network history originated=20 > in any given country would be different from other countries; = however,=20 > there would be common information elements such as: > - Name of collection institution > - Scope of collection > - Online or offline or both > - Where institution is located > - Contact person > - Is the collector a legitimate repository with endowment > The number and nature of these common elements to be developed by = the group. >=20 > - It is also assumed that any donor has the right to offer his or her = donation to any=20 > collector and that any collector has the right to accept or refuse = any donation=20 >=20 > Please note that this is a :=94strawman=94 approach that builds upon = work already begun, the details of which will be further developed to = suit the need.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: Scott Brim > Date: May 23, 2013 4:42:44 AM PDT > To: Elizabeth Feinler > Cc: nethistory@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a = possible methodology >=20 >=20 > Jake, this feels very top-down. There are already a dozen attempts at > Internet history. In other areas we've found that everyone has their > own way of doing things, and attempts at unification are likely to = fail. > I suggest that instead of unification you try for federation -- find a > way to include existing attempts, and not require them to reorganize. >=20 > Scott >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: Joe Abley > Date: May 23, 2013 5:10:36 AM PDT > To: Scott Brim > Cc: Elizabeth Feinler , nethistory@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a = possible methodology >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 2013-05-23, at 07:42, Scott Brim wrote: >=20 >> Jake, this feels very top-down. There are already a dozen attempts = at >> Internet history. In other areas we've found that everyone has their >> own way of doing things, and attempts at unification are likely to = fail. >> I suggest that instead of unification you try for federation -- find = a >> way to include existing attempts, and not require them to reorganize. >=20 > I made a brief presentation at a NZNOG meeting in Hamilton a few years = ago entitled "The History of Peering in New Zealand". One entertaining = hour later (NZNOG is good for audience participation) there were two or = three people who volunteered to start a wiki based on the notes they had = taken during the session. The wiki subsequently became a free-form = repository for facts and anecdotes. InternetNZ later commissioned a book = based (in part) on that material. >=20 > (The book was kind of governance-heavy and missed a lot of the = operational war stories that I found more entertaining.) >=20 > This to me seemed like a good approach to Internet history: the = anarchic commons free-edit with no pretension of journalistic integrity; = the resulting pile of clues provides a basis for actual research. >=20 >=20 > Joe >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: Juliao Braga > Date: May 23, 2013 6:24:27 AM PDT > To: nethistory@ietf.org, j@braga.net.br > Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a = possible methodology >=20 >=20 > Nice job! Congratulations! >=20 > I would recommend to think in developing an ontology about the History > of the Internet. Starting with a vocabulary to be followed by all > involved and interested, worldwide. >=20 > There are several methodologies to target these work. An excellent, = for > anyone interested: >=20 > Building Ontologies & Knowledge Elicitation by Alan Rector & = colleagues > = (http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~rector/modules/CS646/Lecture-Handouts/Lect-2-Ont= ology-building-2007.pdf) >=20 > Juli=E3o >=20 > Em 22/05/2013 18:17, Elizabeth Feinler escreveu: >>=20 >>=20 >> Dear All, >>=20 >> At the IETF BoF in Orlando we learned that Kilam Chon and his = colleagues >> have made a good start on a structure for collecting the history of >> networking. >>=20 >> See: >> = https://sites.google.com/site/internethistoryasia/country-region-informati= on=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Nethistory mailing list > Nethistory@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory --Apple-Mail-1-185782329 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Great = to see a discussion beginning!  

I think I was = not clear about what I was proposing as a possible beginning = framework.

Let me state up front that the mission of = this discussion is
- Finding/Helping networking = history donors
- Finding the = history
- Saving the = history
and not Writing the history of = networking.

What I think we need to address = is:
= 1.) Developing a well-known, easy process to follow for = anyone who wants to be a donor
2.) Developing a long-term = sustainable process for saving the history of networking history for = posterity.  

It is true that part of the = Asian History work is dedicated to writing networking history itself. =  Whether that is a right approach or not is not an issue here. =  Their effort has come up with a list of countries; and behind = those countries in many cases are real people, who may or may not be = willing to be a "first responder" so to speak for someone with a = donation.  If they don't want to fill that role, at least they are = familiar with and interested in the history for their country and could = possibly recommend someone to fill the NHL slot and/or help identify who = has important collections.  Consequently, it is a place to = start.

I based my thinking for a framework on = the model that the Network Technical Liaison played in the early days of = the internet.  There was a contact at each site (in our case, = country) called the Technical Liaison who was the "go to" person for = that site (country).  The Liaison didn't personally  handle = all the problems at that site (country), he simply had a pretty good = idea of who could and passed the word along.  In some cases only = one person was needed as Liaison and could handle all the problems; in = other cases there was a whole hierarchy of contacts behind the Liaison = of which he was aware and used as needed.  This process was simple = but it really worked and could be adopted = here.

As I mentioned this was just a "strawman" = proposal to get us all thinking.  Please feel free to = comment/criticize/revise or = whatever.

Jake







From: = Elizabeth Feinler <feinler@earthlink.net>
Date: May 22, 2013 2:17:42 PM PDT
To: = nethistory@ietf.org
Cc: = Feinler Elizabeth <feinler@earthlink.net>
Subject: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of = networking, a possible methodology




Dear All,

At the IETF BoF in Orlando we learned that Kilam Chon and his = colleagues have made a good start on a  structure for collecting = the history of networking.

 
I would like to suggest that we build on that structure in the = following way:

1.)  Use Chon=92s list of countries to build a = tree-structured framework of networking
    =   history contacts and activities unique to each country

     = (NHL)

The Network History Liaison would:

1.)  Act as a =93go = to=94 point of contact for anyone who has a computer or network = history
      donation but does = not know where or how to begin to find a suitable facility for = the
      = donation. 

2.)  Develop a list of repositories (if any) and = significant archival collections (if any) located 
      within his or her country along with = relevant contact information..  Provide liaison 
      to significant repositories that may or = may not reside in his or her country;
3.)  Collaborate via the nethistory@ietf.org mailing list = to develop an online worldwide network 
      history information framework.

4.)  Help develop = posting and trading practices for duplicate donations, and like = activities 
       to be = determined as the need arises.
5.)  Help facilitate the = deposition of important networking history artifacts and archives = at
      established repositories that will = protect and preserve them in perpetuity.  

6.)  Promote the = importance of saving the history of networking for posterity.

The Network History = Liaison would:

1.)  NOT accept donations as part of his or her role; but = would only act as an information
     = liaison to facilities that do accept donations.

2.) NOT act as an = appraiser for any donation or  proposed donation, or at
     any time assess a monetary value to any = item or collection.

Each NHL can pull together a team of volunteers or choose to = work alone to help develop the structure and/or provide liaison for his = or her country.

- It is assumed that what is being collected and what aspect = of  network history originated 
  in any = given country would be different from other countries; = however, 
  there would be common = information elements such as:
- Name of = collection institution
- Scope of collection
= - Online or offline or both
- Where = institution is located
- Contact person
= - Is the collector a legitimate repository with = endowment
  The number and nature of these = common elements to be developed by the group.

- It is also assumed that = any donor has the right to offer his or her donation to = any 
  collector and that any collector = has the right to accept or refuse any donation 

Please note that this is = a :=94strawman=94 approach that builds upon work already begun, the = details of which will be further developed to suit the = need. 





From: = Scott Brim <swb@internet2.edu>
Date: = May 23, 2013 4:42:44 AM PDT
To: = Elizabeth Feinler <feinler@earthlink.net>
Cc: nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of = networking, a possible methodology


Jake, = this feels very top-down.  There are already a dozen attempts = at
Internet history.  In other areas we've found that everyone = has their
own way of doing things, and attempts at unification are = likely to fail.
I suggest that instead of unification you try for = federation -- find a
way to include existing attempts, and not = require them to reorganize.

Scott





From: = Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
Date: = May 23, 2013 5:10:36 AM PDT
To: = Scott Brim <swb@internet2.edu>
Cc: = Elizabeth Feinler <feinler@earthlink.net>, nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of = networking, a possible methodology



On = 2013-05-23, at 07:42, Scott Brim <swb@internet2.edu> = wrote:

Jake, this feels very top-down. =  There are already a dozen attempts at
Internet history.  In other areas we've found that = everyone has their
own way of = doing things, and attempts at unification are likely to = fail.
I suggest that instead = of unification you try for federation -- find = a
way to include existing = attempts, and not require them to reorganize.

I made = a brief presentation at a NZNOG meeting in Hamilton a few years ago = entitled "The History of Peering in New Zealand". One entertaining hour = later (NZNOG is good for audience participation) there were two or three = people who volunteered to start a wiki based on the notes they had taken = during the session. The wiki subsequently became a free-form repository = for facts and anecdotes. InternetNZ later commissioned a book based (in = part) on that material.

(The book was kind of governance-heavy = and missed a lot of the operational war stories that I found more = entertaining.)

This to me seemed like a good approach to Internet = history: the anarchic commons free-edit with no pretension of = journalistic integrity; the resulting pile of clues provides a basis for = actual research.


Joe



From: Juliao Braga <juliao@braga.eti.br>
=
Date: = May 23, 2013 6:24:27 AM PDT
Subject: = Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of = networking, a possible methodology


Nice job! = Congratulations!

I would recommend to think in developing an = ontology about the History
of the Internet. Starting with a = vocabulary to be followed by all
involved and interested, = worldwide.

There are several methodologies to target these work. = An excellent, for
anyone interested:

Building Ontologies & = Knowledge Elicitation by Alan Rector & colleagues
(http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~rector/modules/CS= 646/Lecture-Handouts/Lect-2-Ontology-building-2007.pdf)

Juli=E3= o

Em 22/05/2013 18:17, Elizabeth Feinler escreveu:


Dear = All,

At the IETF BoF = in Orlando we learned that Kilam Chon and his = colleagues
have made a good = start on a  structure for collecting the history = of
networking.

See:
https://sites.google.com/site/internethistoryasia/country-regi= on-information




_______________________________= ________________
Nethistory mailing list
Nethistory@ietf.org
https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory

= --Apple-Mail-1-185782329-- From feinler@earthlink.net Thu May 23 12:28:22 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F08C721F9838 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 12:28:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.134 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.134 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.465, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FzY6DsAbZWD0 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 12:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED8DF21F869F for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 11:57:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dG6MbAR86LVwGBhg7lNXih/YIFWu4k7AhsQnjWvZTbdhIbgKHidcEZkhdA2JMlon; h=Received:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.245.23.104] (helo=[10.0.1.3]) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1UfahN-0005c3-PU; Thu, 23 May 2013 14:57:14 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Elizabeth Feinler In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 11:57:12 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> <519E00B4.5080600@internet2.edu> To: Joe Abley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-ELNK-Trace: 3e5b4c0061061515d780f4a490ca6956d5d4673fe7faad86e2d573d4c62cead074d92790fc8930fb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.245.23.104 Cc: Scott Brim , nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 19:28:22 -0000 Joe and Scot, I think both of you have pointed out that there is probably no "right" = way to document history. My personal opinion is that both top down and = bottom up are useful and that any approach that fills out the whole = picture truthfully is useful. It might be interesting at some point to = document some of the various approaches that have been taken and their = impact. Jake On May 23, 2013, at 5:10 AM, Joe Abley wrote: >=20 > On 2013-05-23, at 07:42, Scott Brim wrote: >=20 >> Jake, this feels very top-down. There are already a dozen attempts = at >> Internet history. In other areas we've found that everyone has their >> own way of doing things, and attempts at unification are likely to = fail. >> I suggest that instead of unification you try for federation -- find = a >> way to include existing attempts, and not require them to reorganize. >=20 > I made a brief presentation at a NZNOG meeting in Hamilton a few years = ago entitled "The History of Peering in New Zealand". One entertaining = hour later (NZNOG is good for audience participation) there were two or = three people who volunteered to start a wiki based on the notes they had = taken during the session. The wiki subsequently became a free-form = repository for facts and anecdotes. InternetNZ later commissioned a book = based (in part) on that material. >=20 > (The book was kind of governance-heavy and missed a lot of the = operational war stories that I found more entertaining.) >=20 > This to me seemed like a good approach to Internet history: the = anarchic commons free-edit with no pretension of journalistic integrity; = the resulting pile of clues provides a basis for actual research. >=20 >=20 > Joe From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Thu May 23 13:58:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94CAD21F91B8 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 13:58:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.103, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wLSRkr7EN7Mc for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 13:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f173.google.com (mail-pd0-f173.google.com [209.85.192.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEB8D21F9260 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 13:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f173.google.com with SMTP id v14so2078367pde.18 for ; Thu, 23 May 2013 13:16:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=dG6lQFH2v839sDvw9KC5N5eiU/ED9BtsiQrm88Opzus=; b=UJkm5uHJJb8/AOMnM/qTHDWCJy218I+ibxd2KyEJkJeJ3f0sBG7R1d3kuTIaFrR0sL M0d0nLmn3Yze5D/5mk2oMwEMcp3BICfQPpZQ94j2uPik9X8ffsLUykoDAKkKlVhXzFfD 7i19bWx7iGtjJPJ0rWjieXUdGvT3QuEW1bw+ogOWo4jFERp/bR0cNX9JKsnd3FjSex+B HQwaG538LNn58Gwv6uDkmEYvW6AYUOEsSMHgP5H5diWk/QkazYNZFi64vqhRPDsT57XY VO/oD0+C56CJPSMESuMTuTezyUJ3Ux6wb7D5/PC4mR2802XuwH+4hw3hvltJnKU6H2Yk BpjQ== X-Received: by 10.66.252.4 with SMTP id zo4mr15323218pac.100.1369340219329; Thu, 23 May 2013 13:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (103.201.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz. [27.252.201.103]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id vv6sm14087009pab.6.2013.05.23.13.16.55 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 23 May 2013 13:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <519E7940.9090401@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 08:17:04 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Abley References: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> <519E00B4.5080600@internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Scott Brim , Elizabeth Feinler , nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 20:58:36 -0000 Joe, ... > This to me seemed like a good approach to Internet history: the anarchic commons free-edit with no pretension of journalistic integrity; the resulting pile of clues provides a basis for actual research. There's a lot to what you say, but there is one aspect that's quite worrying in informal crowdsourcing of the material: long-term retention. Fact: stuff that you thought was nicely available on the Web turns out to unavailable five years later, except perhaps via the wayback machine. Example: CERN has recently been searching for a copy of the original first web page ever. Example: some of the "archival" sources I used for my own recent book turned out to have vanished when I did a final pre-publication check of their URLs. I think it is essential to have an organised method of securing copies of material and putting them somewhere that has a high probability of long-term survival. Crowdsourcing is a *great* method of getting the material, but a lousy method of collecting and preserving it. My conclusion is that we *do* need an organised team of curators. Brian From jack@3kitty.org Fri May 24 19:59:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C36121F9377 for ; Fri, 24 May 2013 19:59:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.307 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.307 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hje-2xr0332g for ; Fri, 24 May 2013 19:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail41.atl.registeredsite.com (mail41.atl.registeredsite.com [209.237.134.231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6A421F8EDF for ; Fri, 24 May 2013 19:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mymail.myregisteredsite.com (wmailnode3d.webmail.web.com [209.237.135.46]) by mail41.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with SMTP id r4P2xDuF001655 for ; Fri, 24 May 2013 22:59:30 -0400 Received: (qmail 14583 invoked by uid 80); 25 May 2013 02:59:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.100?) (jack@3kitty.org@8.35.102.254) by wmailnode3d.mymail.myregisteredsite.com with ESMTPA; 25 May 2013 02:59:12 -0000 Message-ID: <51A02900.7010507@3kitty.org> Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 19:59:12 -0700 From: Jack Haverty User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130510 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: nethistory@ietf.org References: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> <519E00B4.5080600@internet2.edu> <519E7940.9090401@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <519E7940.9090401@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 25 May 2013 09:25:32 -0700 Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 03:01:28 -0000 On 05/23/2013 01:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I think it is essential to have an organised method of securing copies > of material and putting them somewhere that has a high probability of > long-term survival. Crowdsourcing is a *great* method of getting the > material, but a lousy method of collecting and preserving it. I agree that the most urgent need is one or more methods for capturing the history before it fades and changes beyond recognition. As one of the people who lived through the early networking years of the 70s and 80s, I've been pretty disappointed when I've read some of the "history of the Internet" books, which often seem to be recounting the history of some other Internet from the one I was involved with. There's been a lot of historical "testimony" over the last few years on this mailing list. But, like other old mailing lists, it may or may not survive. I'm certain that a lot of interesting history was embodied in the old mailing lists like header-people, but doesn't survive even three decades later. Perhaps some corporate or government sponsor could be intrigued to serve simply as a long-term repository? Smithsonian? Google? The other immediate task of urgency is to simply define a framework for capturing such informal items as email discussions, or old out-of-print documents, so that the nature of the content -- the metadata -- is retained. Are statements eyewitness accounts "I was at the meeting and XXX...", or hearsay "XXX told me that..." or analytic conclusion "I examined 3 years of emails and concluded that ....", or simply speculation "XXX happened just before YYY so XXX was the reason that YYY decided to..." or maybe even revisionist work "Everyone knows that XXX...". This would enormously help some future historians trying to piece together what actually happened from all of the opinions and variants of reality that will undoubtedly emerge. For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from various meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early working groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, where should I FTP the files...? /Jack Haverty From dhc@dcrocker.net Sat May 25 18:40:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD60A21F8C4C for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 18:40:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5WB92-E5Qs6r for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 18:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF0A221F8C38 for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 18:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.10.240] ([91.113.251.136]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r4Q1ejVj013903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 18:40:51 -0700 Message-ID: <51A1681B.5030206@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 03:40:43 +0200 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nethistory@ietf.org References: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> <519E00B4.5080600@internet2.edu> <519E7940.9090401@gmail.com> <51A02900.7010507@3kitty.org> In-Reply-To: <51A02900.7010507@3kitty.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sat, 25 May 2013 18:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 01:40:57 -0000 On 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty wrote: > For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my > notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from various > meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early working > groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, where > should I FTP the files...? When considering an effort to specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use cases, to guide everyone's thinking. Use cases are typically simple, concrete, direct and realistic. The above seems to me to be one of the more iconic examples for the current effort. I'd think that if the effort develops a useful, scalable answer, it will have significantly improved the world's long-term archiving of Internet historical data. What other questions should be on the list? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From ggm@algebras.org Sat May 25 19:00:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D65E021F8E99 for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:00:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oc+3k+zaFD9u for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f44.google.com (mail-pa0-f44.google.com [209.85.220.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E0721F8EA8 for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id wp1so3048321pac.31 for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=kHTvLZd+iDbqzhkZrZJVjAGQ5D0jHMy72OAP97HKdYA=; b=Sx6QQXl73//tPLFmHVJmfVVGggz97iewWYOSNMbbT3g4gBgYxejsTziQmJs6KqQIJ4 pGPu4xoycCFO+/Tbca5zpvdx479QZmYKtlD2Yj8vSaPOGl2o6vJ5eJ9KP+KSrkWLapFe A1835z9YeAeK933oDtg7r238c2wQ4t6xBKqtUQr9r2nNoS4+/f3UNzopeOXYauLKi4CJ F1r5b3Txv/cj8pR9ZTBv06vZRT0rtke/V81jadlkZuR5FXAH7doS2u1wXHUnXiZ0g08r 1ruyGw893HdqT67Yl+sfsuFO6i4f2afmS1c46/BrJR/MBKtPRIfb/e7UhHPPX7H8MBwO CQSA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.180.132 with SMTP id do4mr23903034pbc.96.1369533638374; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.25.195 with HTTP; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [2001:44b8:2136:8e00:11a0:ec01:20b8:c868] In-Reply-To: <51A1681B.5030206@dcrocker.net> References: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> <519E00B4.5080600@internet2.edu> <519E7940.9090401@gmail.com> <51A02900.7010507@3kitty.org> <51A1681B.5030206@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 12:00:38 +1000 Message-ID: From: George Michaelson To: dcrocker@bbiw.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10c803060a4604dd9566e3 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkhYa4fKEm0NJ2sFCgwqL70kWL7DHwncdgwZMLhfts2SJOGv1P6mbFUHVMg5CYEeBUvkx+x Cc: nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 02:00:43 -0000 --047d7b10c803060a4604dd9566e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I said this at the Orlando meeting but I'd like to repeat it here: There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting, curating, archiving. There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting oral history. Why does the IETF always have to act as if it, and only it, is capable of defining how to do _anything_ ? Instead of beating our heads against the wall 'designing' how to do net history, why don't we do outreach to the people who have formalized processes and methods, to collect, collate and archive this kind of thing? Sometimes, we aren't actually the right people to do things. Lets get in touch with the Sussex University social history people, the history of science schools in the US, Asia, and lets get them assigning their brilliant minds to this problem. They have students, dying for theses topics, students who need honors projects, busting to be assigned something juicy to work on. Lets get them working on us. -George On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty wrote: > >> For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my >> notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from various >> meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early working >> groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, where >> should I FTP the files...? >> > > > When considering an effort to specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use cases, > to guide everyone's thinking. Use cases are typically simple, concrete, > direct and realistic. > > The above seems to me to be one of the more iconic examples for the > current effort. I'd think that if the effort develops a useful, scalable > answer, it will have significantly improved the world's long-term archiving > of Internet historical data. > > What other questions should be on the list? > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > > ______________________________**_________________ > Nethistory mailing list > Nethistory@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/nethistory > --047d7b10c803060a4604dd9566e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I said this at the Orlando meeting but I'd like to rep= eat it here:

There is an entire discipline dedicat= ed to collecting, curating, archiving.

There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting oral history.

Why does the IETF always have to act as if it= , and only it, is capable of defining how to do _anything_ ?=A0

Instead of beating our heads against the wall 'des= igning' how to do net history, why don't we do outreach to the peop= le who have formalized processes and methods, to collect, collate and archi= ve this kind of thing?

Sometimes, we aren't actually the right= people to do things.=A0

Lets get in t= ouch with the Sussex University social history people, the history of scien= ce schools in the US, Asia, and lets get them assigning their brilliant min= ds to this problem. They have students, dying for theses topics, students w= ho need honors projects, busting to be assigned something juicy to work on.=

Lets get them working on us.

-George

On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Dave Crocker= <dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:
On 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack= Haverty wrote:
For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my
notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from various meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early working
groups. =A0If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, where should I FTP the files...?


When considering an effort to specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use cas= es, to guide everyone's thinking. =A0Use cases are typically simple, co= ncrete, direct and realistic.

The above seems to me to be one of the more iconic examples for the current= effort. =A0I'd think that if the effort develops a useful, scalable an= swer, it will have significantly improved the world's long-term archivi= ng of Internet historical data.

What other questions should be on the list?

d/

--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net

_______________________________________________
Nethistory mailing list
Nethistory@ietf.or= g
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory

--047d7b10c803060a4604dd9566e3-- From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Sat May 25 19:55:31 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E3E21F8EBE for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:55:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.733 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.733 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.134, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E5AIpYx7MIcu for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f172.google.com (mail-pd0-f172.google.com [209.85.192.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E46A021F89D5 for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 10so5452398pdi.31 for ; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:55:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=H9HlcdYC9rQHR3XbO+oGwn8sC+pu+Zrr9VDY694inDs=; b=vVXKyuriIVSFQLTf3o4DMqyobUrDeiMFF7kk7n5mwcyOPmWyKNbtWNdFmqugjOQ38K lT0cxx5psQ6I7qXhpSndGRBzsig8oh6gK47IKFU6OuADju90ffJKpPOo7mi460xZ1yeZ h7Jo3l+gV03ulm4sVq+m0G2gYYgJpU+tx9PJdKkxt+xIi7Gaw1JL3fFrWj7R2S9WB4Ri Iw7pmu1es2Nu3V+67zhabfzkp3gvUKtX9oINxag+3hrsgAPSbBmOU51fRTekqU8PCL3+ U/T/51ut4ZwVNa+N8xJQ07rDTesTkpAUjxeT28dzPQXk2S3aMWvF04a3q2NnRxCwGhHw DwCQ== X-Received: by 10.68.166.229 with SMTP id zj5mr24336910pbb.167.1369536926675; Sat, 25 May 2013 19:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (82.252.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz. [27.252.252.82]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 10sm22675310pbm.0.2013.05.25.19.55.22 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 25 May 2013 19:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51A179A9.2030708@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 14:55:37 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: George Michaelson References: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> <519E00B4.5080600@internet2.edu> <519E7940.9090401@gmail.com> <51A02900.7010507@3kitty.org> <51A1681B.5030206@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 02:55:31 -0000 On 26/05/2013 14:00, George Michaelson wrote: > I said this at the Orlando meeting but I'd like to repeat it here: > > There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting, curating, archiving. > > There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting oral history. > > Why does the IETF always have to act as if it, and only it, is capable of > defining how to do _anything_ ? > > Instead of beating our heads against the wall 'designing' how to do net > history, why don't we do outreach to the people who have formalized > processes and methods, to collect, collate and archive this kind of thing? I thought that was the idea; at least that was how I interpreted Elizabeth Feinler's message. But sourcing the raw data is something that only the networking community itself can do, and a structure for that is needed. I think you'll find there's already oral history around from some pioneers, in the generic oral history collections. For example, http://conservancy.umn.edu/handle/107241. Fairly obviously, whatever we collect would be best added to one of the existing archives. Brian > > Sometimes, we aren't actually the right people to do things. > > Lets get in touch with the Sussex University social history people, the > history of science schools in the US, Asia, and lets get them assigning > their brilliant minds to this problem. They have students, dying for theses > topics, students who need honors projects, busting to be assigned something > juicy to work on. > > Lets get them working on us. > > -George > > > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > >> On 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty wrote: >> >>> For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my >>> notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from various >>> meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early working >>> groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, where >>> should I FTP the files...? >>> >> >> When considering an effort to specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use cases, >> to guide everyone's thinking. Use cases are typically simple, concrete, >> direct and realistic. >> >> The above seems to me to be one of the more iconic examples for the >> current effort. I'd think that if the effort develops a useful, scalable >> answer, it will have significantly improved the world's long-term archiving >> of Internet historical data. >> >> What other questions should be on the list? >> >> d/ >> >> -- >> Dave Crocker >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >> bbiw.net >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Nethistory mailing list >> Nethistory@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/nethistory >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Nethistory mailing list > Nethistory@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory From marc@webhistory.org Sun May 26 13:32:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E83521F95FC for ; Sun, 26 May 2013 13:32:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XIpLTUE3BQuw for ; Sun, 26 May 2013 13:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newsmtp.well.com (newsmtp.well.com [107.20.247.102]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4192321F91A5 for ; Sun, 26 May 2013 13:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.well.com (zimbra.well.com [10.68.151.47]) by newsmtp.well.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r4QKWFtI005212; Sun, 26 May 2013 13:32:15 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.well.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF703340029C; Sun, 26 May 2013 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.well.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.well.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6vnotzzME6M1; Sun, 26 May 2013 13:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (99-117-98-20.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [99.117.98.20]) by zimbra.well.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 40045340028C; Sun, 26 May 2013 13:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-33-451105111 From: Marc Weber In-Reply-To: <51A179A9.2030708@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 13:32:08 -0700 Message-Id: References: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> <519E00B4.5080600@internet2.edu> <519E7940.9090401@gmail.com> <51A02900.7010507@3kitty.org> <51A1681B.5030206@dcrocker.net> <51A179A9.2030708@gmail.com> To: George Michaelson , Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: Dave Crocker , nethistory@ietf.org, Jake Feinler Updated Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:32:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail-33-451105111 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 The IETF BoF and Nethistory mailing list were initiated by professionals = and practitioners in exactly the disciplines George Michaelson = describes. I'm chair, I founded the Internet History Program at the = largest collecting computer history museum in the world (CHM), have done = hundreds of oral histories, and collaborate regularly with a dozen peer = institutions. Jake Feinler has been an advisor and core volunteer to the = Computer History Museum for a decade. So why networking history at the IETF? Because a huge amount of = historically important networking material is NOT finding its way to the = formal institutions that are equipped to preserve it =96 including = material generated by the IETF itself and its participants.=20 If you read our draft charter and slide show = (http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/history.html), you'll see that our = primary goal is to be a matchmaker between at-risk materials and = permanent archiving institutions in different countries. The goal is not = to "design" net history =96 as George correctly points out it has long = been designed =96 but to help get more of the source materials on which = it depends into the hands of the professionals who can preserve it.=20 Some of that professional community does, indeed, include students in = the history of technology and related fields as George suggests. As Brad = Fidler of UCLA mentioned in his videoconference presentation at the = History BoF in Orlando, his program already has two interns working on = the goals of the Nethistory mailing list. This shows that one way to get = students involved is through history activities within the IETF.=20 Perhaps most important, the idea of hosting this sort of effort within a = technical standards body or organization is not nearly as singular as it = may sound. There are history functions of differing kinds within the = IEEE, ACM, and W3C (some of whom are following our IETF efforts with = interest), and I'm sure several others. In all cases the goal is put = those functions close to where history is being made, and to leverage = the geographic reach of such bodies to better preserve it and make it = known.=20 - Marc p.s. oral histories were not presented as a top goal at the BoF, but = George brings them up and Brian Carpenter correctly notes the Charles = Babbage Institute at the University of Minnesota as one major = repository. CHM has conducted or collected over 600 video oral = histories, including nearly 200 in networking, and taken together = dedicated networking history efforts like Andreu Vea's WiWiWi.org (he = came in at the BoF by videolink) and the earlier Web History Project = that I co-founded have done hundreds more. However, the majority of = pioneers interviewed have been in North America and Europe, and this is = where the an international effort as through the IETF can help address = the rest of the world. =20 On May 25, 2013, at 7:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 26/05/2013 14:00, George Michaelson wrote: >> I said this at the Orlando meeting but I'd like to repeat it here: >>=20 >> There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting, curating, = archiving. >>=20 >> There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting oral history. >>=20 >> Why does the IETF always have to act as if it, and only it, is = capable of >> defining how to do _anything_ ? >>=20 >> Instead of beating our heads against the wall 'designing' how to do = net >> history, why don't we do outreach to the people who have formalized >> processes and methods, to collect, collate and archive this kind of = thing? >=20 > I thought that was the idea; at least that was how I interpreted > Elizabeth Feinler's message. But sourcing the raw data is something > that only the networking community itself can do, and a structure for > that is needed. >=20 > I think you'll find there's already oral history around from some > pioneers, in the generic oral history collections. For example, > http://conservancy.umn.edu/handle/107241. Fairly obviously, whatever > we collect would be best added to one of the existing archives. >=20 > Brian >>=20 >> Sometimes, we aren't actually the right people to do things. >>=20 >> Lets get in touch with the Sussex University social history people, = the >> history of science schools in the US, Asia, and lets get them = assigning >> their brilliant minds to this problem. They have students, dying for = theses >> topics, students who need honors projects, busting to be assigned = something >> juicy to work on. >>=20 >> Lets get them working on us. >>=20 >> -George >>=20 >>=20 >> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Dave Crocker = wrote: >>=20 >>> On 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty wrote: >>>=20 >>>> For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed = my >>>> notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from = various >>>> meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early = working >>>> groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, = where >>>> should I FTP the files...? >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> When considering an effort to specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use = cases, >>> to guide everyone's thinking. Use cases are typically simple, = concrete, >>> direct and realistic. >>>=20 >>> The above seems to me to be one of the more iconic examples for the >>> current effort. I'd think that if the effort develops a useful, = scalable >>> answer, it will have significantly improved the world's long-term = archiving >>> of Internet historical data. >>>=20 >>> What other questions should be on the list? >>>=20 >>> d/ >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Dave Crocker >>> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>> bbiw.net >>>=20 >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Nethistory mailing list >>> Nethistory@ietf.org >>> = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/nethistory >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Nethistory mailing list >> Nethistory@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory > _______________________________________________ > Nethistory mailing list > Nethistory@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory Marc Weber | marc@webhistory.org | +1 415 282 6868=20 Internet History Program Founder and Curator, Computer History Museum = =20 1401 N Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View CA 94043 = computerhistory.org/nethistory Co-founder, Web History Center and Project, webhistory.org=20 --Apple-Mail-33-451105111 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 The = IETF BoF and Nethistory mailing list were initiated by professionals and = practitioners in exactly the disciplines George Michaelson describes. = I'm chair, I founded the Internet History Program at the largest = collecting computer history museum in the world (CHM), have done = hundreds of oral histories, and collaborate regularly with a dozen peer = institutions. Jake Feinler has been an advisor and core volunteer to the = Computer History Museum for a decade.

So why networking = history at the IETF? Because a huge amount of historically important = networking material is NOT finding its way to the formal institutions = that are equipped to preserve it =96 including material generated by the = IETF itself and its participants. 

If you = read our draft charter and slide show (http://www.ietf.o= rg/proceedings/86/history.html), you'll see that our primary goal is = to be a matchmaker between at-risk materials and permanent archiving = institutions in different countries. The goal is not to "design" net = history =96 as George correctly points out it has long been designed =96 = but to help get more of the source materials on which it depends into = the hands of the professionals who can preserve = it. 

Some of that professional community = does, indeed, include students in the history of technology and related = fields as George suggests. As Brad Fidler of UCLA mentioned in his = videoconference presentation at the History BoF in Orlando, his program = already has two interns working on the goals of the Nethistory mailing = list. This shows that one way to get students involved is through = history activities within the = IETF. 

Perhaps most important, the idea of = hosting this sort of effort within a technical standards body or = organization is not nearly as singular as it may sound. There are = history functions of differing kinds within the IEEE, ACM, and W3C (some = of whom are following our IETF efforts with interest), and I'm sure = several others. In all cases the goal is put those functions close to = where history is being made, and to leverage the geographic reach of = such bodies to better preserve it and make it = known. 

- = Marc

p.s. oral histories were not presented as = a top goal at the BoF, but George brings them up and Brian = Carpenter correctly notes the Charles Babbage Institute at the = University of Minnesota as one major repository. CHM has conducted = or collected over 600 video oral histories, including nearly 200 in = networking, and taken together dedicated networking history efforts = like Andreu Vea's WiWiWi.org (he came = in at the BoF by videolink) and the earlier Web History Project = that I co-founded have done hundreds more. However, the majority of = pioneers interviewed have been in North America and Europe, and = this is where the an international effort as through the IETF can help = address the rest of the = world.  



On May 25, = 2013, at 7:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

On = 26/05/2013 14:00, George Michaelson wrote:
I = said this at the Orlando meeting but I'd like to repeat it = here:

There is an = entire discipline dedicated to collecting, curating, = archiving.

There is an = entire discipline dedicated to collecting oral = history.

Why does the = IETF always have to act as if it, and only it, is capable = of
defining how to do = _anything_ ?

Instead of = beating our heads against the wall 'designing' how to do = net
history, why don't we do = outreach to the people who have formalized
processes and methods, to collect, collate and archive = this kind of thing?

I thought that was the idea; at = least that was how I interpreted
Elizabeth Feinler's message. But = sourcing the raw data is something
that only the networking community = itself can do, and a structure for
that is needed.

I think = you'll find there's already oral history around from some
pioneers, = in the generic oral history collections. For example,
http://conservancy.umn.e= du/handle/107241. Fairly obviously, whatever
we collect would be = best added to one of the existing archives.

=     Brian

Sometimes, we = aren't actually the right people to do = things.

Lets get in = touch with the Sussex University social history people, = the
history of science schools = in the US, Asia, and lets get them assigning
their brilliant minds to this problem. They have students, = dying for theses
topics, = students who need honors projects, busting to be assigned = something
juicy to work = on.

Lets get them working on us.

-George


On Sun, May 26, = 2013 at 11:40 AM, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> = wrote:

On 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty = wrote:

For = example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed = my
notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my = notes from various
meetings= of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early = working
groups. =  If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, = where
should = I FTP the = files...?


When considering an effort to = specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use = cases,
to guide everyone's thinking.  Use cases are = typically simple, concrete,
direct and = realistic.

The above seems to me to be one = of the more iconic examples for = the
current effort.  I'd think that if the effort = develops a useful, scalable
answer, it will have = significantly improved the world's long-term = archiving
of Internet historical = data.

What other questions should be = on the list?

d/

--
Dave = Crocker
Brandenburg = InternetWorking
bbiw.net

______________________________**_________________
Nethistory mailing = list
Nethistory@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/**listinfo/nethistory<https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory>



------------------------------------------------------------= ------------

_______________________________________________
Nethistory mailing = list
Nethistory@ietf.org
https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory
_____________________= __________________________
Nethistory mailing list
Nethistory@ietf.org
https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory

Marc Weber  |   marc@webhistory.org  | =   +1 415 282 6868 
Internet History Program Founder and = Curator, Computer History Museum          =   
1401 N Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View CA 94043 computerhistory.org/nethist= ory
Co-founder, Web History Center and Project, = webhistory.org 

= --Apple-Mail-33-451105111-- From arussell@stevens.edu Mon May 27 09:04:52 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC6B21F96D9 for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 09:04:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b4JTSHs1LQ7B for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 09:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na3sys009aog107.obsmtp.com (na3sys009aog107.obsmtp.com [74.125.149.197]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 423D521F96C3 for ; Mon, 27 May 2013 09:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nexus.stevens.edu ([155.246.14.12]) by na3sys009aob107.postini.com ([74.125.148.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUaOEGmpZDQoByNhEMQUsXDnRK2rOm0CU@postini.com; Mon, 27 May 2013 09:04:48 PDT Received: from alr.netgear.com (173-86-112-105.dr01.glvv.ny.frontiernet.net [173.86.112.105]) (Authenticated sender: arussell) by nexus.stevens.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C24EF301284; Mon, 27 May 2013 12:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8FD0D288-E416-48BF-8A1F-689390541E12" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) From: Andrew Russell In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 12:04:53 -0400 Message-Id: <4A016A56-4A4B-4A8A-8EF3-048CE24FE86D@stevens.edu> References: <2F1D9541-67A5-4EB7-BA3C-3C8DABC07606@earthlink.net> <519E00B4.5080600@internet2.edu> <519E7940.9090401@gmail.com> <51A02900.7010507@3kitty.org> <51A1681B.5030206@dcrocker.net> To: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Cc: George Michaelson Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 16:04:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8FD0D288-E416-48BF-8A1F-689390541E12 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hello, I'm an academic historian of technology/computing/networking, and = hence a user of the materials that this group seeks to preserve and make = available to scholars. I think this is a very important effort, and I'm = delighted to see it gaining momentum - especially since I have had a = hard time finding some of the IETF's own materials (such as the poised = mailing list archives). =20 Since this group aspires to act as a matchmaker, I thought I would share = my thoughts about matches that you might make. I missed the Orlando BoF, = so please forgive me if I'm telling you things you already know. 1. In addition to the Computer History Museum and Charles Babbage = Institute (which have already been mentioned), American scholars active = in this field regularly work with collections at the Hagley Museum and = Library ; the Smithsonian Lemelson Center = ; and the MIT Institute Archives = . There are many others, but these = are the first to come to mind. You may want to reach out to staff at = each of those institutions, or at least add them to any list/wiki you = assemble. It's also worth noting that CBI, Hagley, and Lemelson offer = fellowships for scholars who want to travel to and use their = collections, which is a major factor for graduate students and academics = who aren't exactly flush with cash! Colleagues who are not based in the = US may be able to provide more information about non-American = institutions with similar missions. 2. The Society for the History of Technology (SHOT) has at least two = SIGs that you may wish to engage: SIGCIS (http://www.sigcis.org/, = Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, & Society); and = TEMSIG (http://temsig.org/, Technology and Museums Special Interest = Group). SHOT is a large = international organization, and SIGCIS and TEMSIG together have several = hundreds of members (scholars, museum professionals, etc.) from around = the world, primarily in the US, Asia, and Europe. If I were to make = only one suggestion to this group, I would say that you should reach out = to these professionals via the mailing lists of SIGCIS and TEMSIG. 3. As Marc Weber alluded, the professional societies also maintain an = interest in history, including the IEEE History Committee = , the = IEEE Computer Society History Committee = , and the = ACM History Committee . Naturally, these = groups are interested primarily in their own histories, but the = affiliations and interests of the various members of these committees = are broader and more diverse. Many leaders of these committees are = active in SHOT and are subscribed to the SIGCIS and/or TEMSIG lists. =20 4. The IEEE Global History Network might also = be a compelling model or destination for your efforts. Since it is not a = traditional paper and artifact-based archive, it might be better suited = for hosting scanned or "born digital" materials. 5. Finally, the historian of computing James Cortada recently published = "History Hunting: A Guide for Fellow Adventurers" (publisher page is = http://www.mesharpe.com/mall/resultsa.asp?Title=3DHistory+Hunting%3A+A+Gui= de+for+Fellow+Adventurers). Dave Walden published a review of this book = - with some of his own reflections on history-collecting and writing - = in the most recent issue of the IEEE Annals of the History of Computing. = It's a very nice review of a book that is directly on point for this = effort in the IETF. IEEE members can get the review from = http://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/an/2013/01/index.html. If you can't = get access, please contact me or Dave Walden if you'd like to read it; = or, as Dave urged in his review, buy _History Hunting_ and read it! I'm active in several of the groups I mentioned above, and I would be = happy to make introductions or provide more information if you think = it's helpful. Please keep up the good work - we (historians) need you!!! Cheers, Andy Russell College of Arts & Letters Stevens Institute of Technology http://www.stevens.edu/cal/sts http://arussell.org On May 25, 2013, at 10:00 PM, George Michaelson = wrote: > I said this at the Orlando meeting but I'd like to repeat it here: >=20 > There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting, curating, = archiving. >=20 > There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting oral history. >=20 > Why does the IETF always have to act as if it, and only it, is capable = of defining how to do _anything_ ?=20 >=20 > Instead of beating our heads against the wall 'designing' how to do = net history, why don't we do outreach to the people who have formalized = processes and methods, to collect, collate and archive this kind of = thing? >=20 > Sometimes, we aren't actually the right people to do things.=20 >=20 > Lets get in touch with the Sussex University social history people, = the history of science schools in the US, Asia, and lets get them = assigning their brilliant minds to this problem. They have students, = dying for theses topics, students who need honors projects, busting to = be assigned something juicy to work on. >=20 > Lets get them working on us. >=20 > -George >=20 >=20 > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Dave Crocker = wrote: > On 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty wrote: > For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my > notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from = various > meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early working > groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, where > should I FTP the files...? >=20 >=20 > When considering an effort to specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use = cases, to guide everyone's thinking. Use cases are typically simple, = concrete, direct and realistic. >=20 > The above seems to me to be one of the more iconic examples for the = current effort. I'd think that if the effort develops a useful, = scalable answer, it will have significantly improved the world's = long-term archiving of Internet historical data. >=20 > What other questions should be on the list? >=20 > d/ >=20 > --=20 > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Nethistory mailing list > Nethistory@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Nethistory mailing list > Nethistory@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory --Apple-Mail=_8FD0D288-E416-48BF-8A1F-689390541E12 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/>= ; the Smithsonian Lemelson Center <http://invention.smithsoni= an.org/home/>; and the MIT Institute Archives <http://libraries.mit.edu/archi= ves/>.  There are many others, but these are the first to = come to mind.  You may want to reach out to staff at each of those = institutions, or at least add them to any list/wiki you assemble. It's = also worth noting that CBI, Hagley, and Lemelson offer fellowships for = scholars who want to travel to and use their collections, which is a = major factor for graduate students and academics who aren't exactly = flush with cash!  Colleagues who are not based in the US may be = able to provide more information about non-American institutions with = similar missions.

2. The Society for the = History of Technology (SHOT) has at least two SIGs that you may wish to = engage: SIGCIS (http://www.sigcis.org/, Special = Interest Group for Computers, Information, & Society); and TEMSIG = (http://temsig.org/, Technology and = Museums Special Interest Group). SHOT <http://www.historyoftechnolog= y.org/> is a large international organization, and SIGCIS and = TEMSIG together have several hundreds of members (scholars, museum = professionals, etc.) from around the world, primarily in the US, Asia, = and Europe.  If I were to make only one suggestion to this group, I = would say that you should reach out to these professionals via the = mailing lists of SIGCIS and TEMSIG.

3. As Marc = Weber alluded, the professional societies also maintain an interest in = history, including the IEEE History Committee <h= ttp://www.ieee.org/about/history_center/history_committee.html>, = the IEEE Computer Society History Committee <http:/= /www.computer.org/portal/web/volunteercenter/history>, and the = ACM History Committee <http://history.acm.org/>. =  Naturally, these groups are interested primarily in their own = histories, but the affiliations and interests of the various members of = these committees are broader and more diverse. Many leaders of these = committees are active in SHOT and are subscribed to the SIGCIS and/or = TEMSIG lists.  

4. The IEEE Global History = Network <http://www.ieeeghn.org/> might = also be a compelling model or destination for your efforts. Since it is = not a traditional paper and artifact-based archive, it might be better = suited for hosting scanned or "born digital" = materials.

5. Finally, the historian of = computing James Cortada recently published "History Hunting: A Guide for = Fellow Adventurers" (publisher page is http://www.mesharpe.com/mall/resultsa.a= sp?Title=3DHistory+Hunting%3A+A+Guide+for+Fellow+Adventurers). =  Dave Walden published a review of this book - with some of his own = reflections on history-collecting and writing - in the most recent issue = of the IEEE Annals of the History of Computing.  It's a very nice = review of a book that is directly on point for this effort in the IETF. =  IEEE members can get the review from http://ww= w.computer.org/csdl/mags/an/2013/01/index.html.  If you can't = get access, please contact me or Dave Walden if you'd like to read it; = or, as Dave urged in his review, buy _History Hunting_ and read = it!

I'm active in several of the groups I = mentioned above, and I would be happy to make introductions or provide = more information if you think it's = helpful.

Please keep up the good work - we = (historians) need = you!!!

Cheers,

Andy = Russell
College of Arts & Letters
Stevens = Institute of Technology

<= br>
On May 25, 2013, at 10:00 PM, George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> = wrote:

I said this at the Orlando meeting but = I'd like to repeat it here:

There is an = entire discipline dedicated to collecting, curating, = archiving.

There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting oral = history.

Why does the = IETF always have to act as if it, and only it, is capable of defining = how to do _anything_ ? 

Instead of beating our heads against the wall = 'designing' how to do net history, why don't we do outreach to the = people who have formalized processes and methods, to collect, collate = and archive this kind of thing?

Sometimes, we aren't actually = the right people to do things. 

Lets get in touch with the Sussex University social history = people, the history of science schools in the US, Asia, and lets get = them assigning their brilliant minds to this problem. They have = students, dying for theses topics, students who need honors projects, = busting to be assigned something juicy to work on.

Lets get them working on = us.

-George


On Sun, May = 26, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:
On = 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty wrote:
For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my
notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from = various
meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early = working
groups.  If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, = where
should I FTP the files...?


When considering an effort to specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use = cases, to guide everyone's thinking.  Use cases are typically = simple, concrete, direct and realistic.

The above seems to me to be one of the more iconic examples for the = current effort.  I'd think that if the effort develops a useful, = scalable answer, it will have significantly improved the world's = long-term archiving of Internet historical data.

What other questions should be on the list?

d/

--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net

_______________________________________________
Nethistory mailing list
Nethistory@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory<= /a>

_______________________________________________
Nethistory mailing = list
Nethistory@ietf.org
https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory

= --Apple-Mail=_8FD0D288-E416-48BF-8A1F-689390541E12-- From feinler@earthlink.net Tue May 28 12:21:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B623E21F913E for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 12:21:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ig378uSEvf3w for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 12:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 196EA21F9104 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 12:21:00 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=G638iwTNTxzt1ZSk+N/BZwkoNQwpmKxiMl6Mv6/bKc+tPE1jdKyzuGU6zs9t+wkQ; h=Received:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Message-Id:References:To:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.245.23.104] (helo=[10.0.1.3]) by elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1UhPS7-0001Gy-7P; Tue, 28 May 2013 15:21:00 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2-619634113 From: Elizabeth Feinler In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 12:20:57 -0700 Message-Id: <98F6AD70-7882-445C-8DE2-52E38E3719F8@earthlink.net> References: To: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-ELNK-Trace: 3e5b4c0061061515d780f4a490ca6956d5d4673fe7faad8638d1098d3d5fa59fa6a6e13ef918924e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.245.23.104 Cc: Feinler Elizabeth Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Nethistory Digest, Vol 2, Issue 7 X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 19:21:06 -0000 --Apple-Mail-2-619634113 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On May 26, 2013, at 12:00 PM, nethistory-request@ietf.org wrote: > If you have received this digest without all the individual message > attachments you will need to update your digest options in your list > subscription. To do so, go to=20 >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory >=20 > Click the 'Unsubscribe or edit options' button, log in, and set "Get > MIME or Plain Text Digests?" to MIME. You can set this option > globally for all the list digests you receive at this point. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Send Nethistory mailing list submissions to > nethistory@ietf.org >=20 > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nethistory-request@ietf.org >=20 > You can reach the person managing the list at > nethistory-owner@ietf.org >=20 > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nethistory digest..." > Today's Topics: >=20 > 1. Re: Collecting the history of networking, a possible > methodology (Dave Crocker) > 2. Re: Collecting the history of networking, a possible > methodology (George Michaelson) > 3. Re: Collecting the history of networking, a possible > methodology (Brian E Carpenter) >=20 > From: Dave Crocker > Date: May 25, 2013 6:40:43 PM PDT > To: nethistory@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a = possible methodology > Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net >=20 >=20 > On 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty wrote: >> For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my >> notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from = various >> meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early = working >> groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, = where >> should I FTP the files...? >=20 >=20 > When considering an effort to specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use = cases, to guide everyone's thinking. Use cases are typically simple, = concrete, direct and realistic. >=20 > The above seems to me to be one of the more iconic examples for the = current effort. I'd think that if the effort develops a useful, = scalable answer, it will have significantly improved the world's = long-term archiving of Internet historical data. >=20 > What other questions should be on the list? >=20 > d/ >=20 > --=20 > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: George Michaelson > Date: May 25, 2013 7:00:38 PM PDT > To: dcrocker@bbiw.net > Cc: nethistory@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a = possible methodology >=20 >=20 > I said this at the Orlando meeting but I'd like to repeat it here: >=20 > There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting, curating, = archiving. >=20 > There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting oral history. >=20 > Why does the IETF always have to act as if it, and only it, is capable = of defining how to do _anything_ ?=20 >=20 > Instead of beating our heads against the wall 'designing' how to do = net history, why don't we do outreach to the people who have formalized = processes and methods, to collect, collate and archive this kind of = thing? >=20 > Sometimes, we aren't actually the right people to do things.=20 >=20 > Lets get in touch with the Sussex University social history people, = the history of science schools in the US, Asia, and lets get them = assigning their brilliant minds to this problem. They have students, = dying for theses topics, students who need honors projects, busting to = be assigned something juicy to work on. >=20 > Lets get them working on us. >=20 > -George George, I can only say "Amen" to what you have stated above. I started = with ISOC/IETF because that is where a lot of networking history = originated and has been documented by its members; however, bringing = historians and archivists together with those who created the history = and may have important donations to make is, to my way of thinking, what = this group should be about. Also, we seem to be headed for an all = digital world where many of the old rules and conventions for saving = history are flying out the window. I do think that IETFers could and = will make valuable contributions as to how this digital world will = evolve, Let's get these groups aware of each other and working together = as best we can. >=20 >=20 > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Dave Crocker = wrote: > On 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty wrote: > For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my > notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from = various > meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early working > groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, where > should I FTP the files...? >=20 >=20 > When considering an effort to specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use = cases, to guide everyone's thinking. Use cases are typically simple, = concrete, direct and realistic. >=20 > The above seems to me to be one of the more iconic examples for the = current effort. I'd think that if the effort develops a useful, = scalable answer, it will have significantly improved the world's = long-term archiving of Internet historical data. >=20 > What other questions should be on the list? >=20 > d/ >=20 > --=20 > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Nethistory mailing list > Nethistory@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: Brian E Carpenter > Date: May 25, 2013 7:55:37 PM PDT > To: George Michaelson > Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, nethistory@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a = possible methodology >=20 >=20 > On 26/05/2013 14:00, George Michaelson wrote: >> I said this at the Orlando meeting but I'd like to repeat it here: >>=20 >> There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting, curating, = archiving. >>=20 >> There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting oral history. >>=20 >> Why does the IETF always have to act as if it, and only it, is = capable of >> defining how to do _anything_ ? >>=20 >> Instead of beating our heads against the wall 'designing' how to do = net >> history, why don't we do outreach to the people who have formalized >> processes and methods, to collect, collate and archive this kind of = thing? >=20 > I thought that was the idea; at least that was how I interpreted > Elizabeth Feinler's message. But sourcing the raw data is something > that only the networking community itself can do, and a structure for > that is needed. >=20 > I think you'll find there's already oral history around from some > pioneers, in the generic oral history collections. For example, > http://conservancy.umn.edu/handle/107241. Fairly obviously, whatever > we collect would be best added to one of the existing archives. >=20 > Brian >>=20 >> Sometimes, we aren't actually the right people to do things. >>=20 >> Lets get in touch with the Sussex University social history people, = the >> history of science schools in the US, Asia, and lets get them = assigning >> their brilliant minds to this problem. They have students, dying for = theses >> topics, students who need honors projects, busting to be assigned = something >> juicy to work on. >>=20 >> Lets get them working on us. >>=20 >> -George >>=20 >>=20 >> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Dave Crocker = wrote: >>=20 >>> On 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty wrote: >>>=20 >>>> For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed = my >>>> notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from = various >>>> meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early = working >>>> groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, = where >>>> should I FTP the files...? >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> When considering an effort to specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use = cases, >>> to guide everyone's thinking. Use cases are typically simple, = concrete, >>> direct and realistic. >>>=20 >>> The above seems to me to be one of the more iconic examples for the >>> current effort. I'd think that if the effort develops a useful, = scalable >>> answer, it will have significantly improved the world's long-term = archiving >>> of Internet historical data. >>>=20 >>> What other questions should be on the list? >>>=20 >>> d/ >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Dave Crocker >>> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>> bbiw.net >>>=20 >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Nethistory mailing list >>> Nethistory@ietf.org >>> = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/nethistory >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Nethistory mailing list >> Nethistory@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Nethistory mailing list > Nethistory@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory --Apple-Mail-2-619634113 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii nethistory-request@ietf.org wrote:

If you have received this digest without all the = individual message
attachments you will need to update your digest = options in your list
subscription.  To do so, go to

https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory

Click the 'Unsubscribe or = edit options' button, log in, and set "Get
MIME or Plain Text = Digests?" to MIME.  You can set this option
globally for all the = list digests you receive at this point.



Send Nethistory = mailing list submissions to
nethistory@ietf.org

To = subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory
or, via = email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
= nethistory-request@ietf.org

You can reach the person = managing the list at
= nethistory-owner@ietf.org

When replying, please edit your = Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Nethistory = digest..."
Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Collecting the = history of networking, a possible
=      methodology (Dave Crocker)
=   2. Re: Collecting the history of networking, a = possible
     methodology (George = Michaelson)
  3. Re: Collecting the history of networking, = a possible
     methodology (Brian E = Carpenter)

From: Dave Crocker = <dhc@dcrocker.net>
Date: May 25, 2013 6:40:43 PM PDT
To: = nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of = networking, a possible methodology
Reply-To: = dcrocker@bbiw.net


On = 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty wrote:
For = example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed = my
notebooks from the late 70s = and early 80s with all my notes from various
meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the = early working
groups.  If = I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, = where
should I FTP the = files...?


When considering an effort to specify = a mechanism, I'm a fan of use cases, to guide everyone's thinking. =  Use cases are typically simple, concrete, direct and = realistic.

The above seems to me to be one of the more iconic = examples for the current effort.  I'd think that if the effort = develops a useful, scalable answer, it will have significantly improved = the world's long-term archiving of Internet historical data.

What = other questions should be on the list?

d/

--
Dave = Crocker
Brandenburg = InternetWorking
bbiw.net




From: George Michaelson = <ggm@algebras.org>
Date: May 25, 2013 7:00:38 PM PDT
To: = dcrocker@bbiw.net
Cc: = nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of = networking, a possible methodology


I said this at the Orlando meeting but I'd like to repeat it = here:

There is an entire discipline = dedicated to collecting, curating, archiving.

There is an entire discipline dedicated to collecting oral = history.

Why does the = IETF always have to act as if it, and only it, is capable of defining = how to do _anything_ ? 

Instead of beating our heads against the wall = 'designing' how to do net history, why don't we do outreach to the = people who have formalized processes and methods, to collect, collate = and archive this kind of thing?

Sometimes, we aren't actually = the right people to do things. 

Lets get in touch with the Sussex University social history = people, the history of science schools in the US, Asia, and lets get = them assigning their brilliant minds to this problem. They have = students, dying for theses topics, students who need honors projects, = busting to be assigned something juicy to work on.

Lets get them working on = us.

-George

George, I can = only say  "Amen" to what you have stated above.  I started = with ISOC/IETF because that is where a lot of networking history = originated and has been documented by its members; however, bringing = historians and archivists together with those who created the history = and may have important donations to make is, to my way of thinking, what = this group should be about. Also, we seem to be headed for an all = digital world where many of the old rules and conventions for saving = history are flying out the window.  I do think that IETFers could = and will make valuable contributions as to how this digital world will = evolve,  Let's get these groups aware of each other and working = together as best we can.


On Sun, May 26, = 2013 at 11:40 AM, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:
On = 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty wrote:
For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my
notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from = various
meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early = working
groups.  If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, = where
should I FTP the files...?


When considering an effort to specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use = cases, to guide everyone's thinking.  Use cases are typically = simple, concrete, direct and realistic.

The above seems to me to be one of the more iconic examples for the = current effort.  I'd think that if the effort develops a useful, = scalable answer, it will have significantly improved the world's = long-term archiving of Internet historical data.

What other questions should be on the list?

d/

--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net

_______________________________________________
Nethistory mailing list
Nethistory@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory<= /a>




=
Cc: = dcrocker@bbiw.net, nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of = networking, a possible methodology


On = 26/05/2013 14:00, George Michaelson wrote:
I = said this at the Orlando meeting but I'd like to repeat it = here:

There is an = entire discipline dedicated to collecting, curating, = archiving.

There is an = entire discipline dedicated to collecting oral = history.

Why does the = IETF always have to act as if it, and only it, is capable = of
defining how to do = _anything_ ?

Instead of = beating our heads against the wall 'designing' how to do = net
history, why don't we do = outreach to the people who have formalized
processes and methods, to collect, collate and archive = this kind of thing?

I thought that was the idea; at = least that was how I interpreted
Elizabeth Feinler's message. But = sourcing the raw data is something
that only the networking community = itself can do, and a structure for
that is needed.

I think = you'll find there's already oral history around from some
pioneers, = in the generic oral history collections. For example,
http://conservancy.umn.e= du/handle/107241. Fairly obviously, whatever
we collect would be = best added to one of the existing archives.

=     Brian

Sometimes, we = aren't actually the right people to do = things.

Lets get in = touch with the Sussex University social history people, = the
history of science schools = in the US, Asia, and lets get them assigning
their brilliant minds to this problem. They have students, = dying for theses
topics, = students who need honors projects, busting to be assigned = something
juicy to work = on.

Lets get them working on us.

-George


On Sun, May 26, = 2013 at 11:40 AM, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> = wrote:

On 5/25/2013 4:59 AM, Jack Haverty = wrote:

For = example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed = my
notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my = notes from various
meetings= of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early = working
groups. =  If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, = where
should = I FTP the = files...?


When considering an effort to = specify a mechanism, I'm a fan of use = cases,
to guide everyone's thinking.  Use cases are = typically simple, concrete,
direct and = realistic.

The above seems to me to be one = of the more iconic examples for = the
current effort.  I'd think that if the effort = develops a useful, scalable
answer, it will have = significantly improved the world's long-term = archiving
of Internet historical = data.

What other questions should be = on the list?

d/

--
Dave = Crocker
Brandenburg = InternetWorking
bbiw.net

______________________________**_________________
Nethistory mailing = list
Nethistory@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/**listinfo/nethistory<https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory>



------------------------------------------------------------= ------------

_______________________________________________
Nethistory mailing = list
Nethistory@ietf.org
https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory



_________= ______________________________________
Nethistory mailing list
Nethistory@ietf.org
https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory

= --Apple-Mail-2-619634113-- From feinler@EARTHLINK.NET Tue May 28 12:40:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390AD11E80FA for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 12:40:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.765 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.765 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.833, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zhJVJx1h3yDe for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 12:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA6111E80F6 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 12:40:24 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=EARTHLINK.NET; b=ZjHHwIUghvhNw5cCrFX2YtoB+a78g2dS4SfY+6SLQVyREv/ZvIdwhiNMqhHd6U3u; h=Received:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Message-Id:References:To:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.245.23.104] (helo=[10.0.1.3]) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1UhPkt-0002b7-4w; Tue, 28 May 2013 15:40:23 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3-620797340 From: Elizabeth Feinler In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 12:40:21 -0700 Message-Id: <7A795ABA-BA2F-4299-AEF2-B1F18F050B8E@EARTHLINK.NET> References: To: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-ELNK-Trace: 3e5b4c0061061515d780f4a490ca6956d5d4673fe7faad861469d4b99f658d9f847d54dc07d1ffa0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.245.23.104 Cc: Feinler Elizabeth Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Nethistory post from jack@3kitty.org requires approval X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 19:40:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail-3-620797340 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On May 24, 2013, at 8:01 PM, nethistory-owner@ietf.org wrote: > As list administrator, your authorization is requested for the > following mailing list posting: >=20 > List: Nethistory@ietf.org > From: jack@3kitty.org > Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a = possible methodology > Reason: Post by non-member to a members-only list >=20 > At your convenience, visit: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/admindb/nethistory >=20 > to approve or deny the request. >=20 > From: Jack Haverty > Date: May 24, 2013 7:59:12 PM PDT > Cc: nethistory@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a = possible methodology >=20 >=20 > On 05/23/2013 01:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> I think it is essential to have an organised method of securing = copies of material and putting them somewhere that has a high = probability of long-term survival. Crowdsourcing is a *great* method of = getting the material, but a lousy method of collecting and preserving = it. > I agree that the most urgent need is one or more methods for capturing = the history before it fades and changes beyond recognition. As one of = the people who lived through the early networking years of the 70s and = 80s, I've been pretty disappointed when I've read some of the "history = of the Internet" books, which often seem to be recounting the history of = some other Internet from the one I was involved with. >=20 > There's been a lot of historical "testimony" over the last few years = on this mailing list. Jack is pointing out a problem we are having with the name of this = mailing list. Jack, I think you are referring to = network-history@postel.org when you refer to=20 " "testimony" over the last few years." Consequently, I propose we = change the name of this group to "Saving-nethistory@ietf.org to avoid = confusion in the names. =20 You and Brian have also pointed out another problem that comes with = anecdotal history - it captures the essence of what happened and often = the nuances and details that would otherwise be lost; however, as time = goes on people's recollections dim and may not be accurate; thus there = is also a need for saving original works for reference. (NOTE: This is = not a criticism of internet-history@postel.org as they have done a great = job of documenting how the Internet evolved, especially the technical = decisions in which many members of that discussion group participated. = I think what we would like to see happen is that the documents, if any, = that verify their recollections along with the recollections themselves = be saved for posterity. We are lucky that networking history is such a young discipline that we = can still ask the person(s) who did the work how it was done. We must = also realize that that time will soon be past and act accordingly. > But, like other old mailing lists, it may or may not survive. I'm = certain that a lot of interesting history was embodied in the old = mailing lists like header-people, but doesn't survive even three decades = later. And this brings up the really big problem we are now facing, which will = only get worse over time: How do we save historical material that is = only online? Valuable history is out there, but there is no guarantee = it will remain. To the best of my knowledge no one, other than Brewster = Kahle's Internet Archive, http://archive.org/, tries to archive the = whole web, and he can only archive what is in the public domain. (If = anyone knows of other such efforts, please let us know.) What = constitutes an "original source" in the digital networking world and = where does it live???? What happens when an informative web site just = disappears? For that matter, who owns website content - the author or = the web provider? Even that is not clear, according to a recent Time = magazine article. >=20 > Perhaps some corporate or government sponsor could be intrigued to = serve simply as a long-term repository? Smithsonian? Google? This, I think, is our first task: to try and identify existing = repositories so at least networking history donors are aware of them. = There are very few repositories specifically dedicated to networking = history; however, there are significant collections located at = government and private libraries and museums. Which of these have = staying power for the long term, and do they know the significance of = the networking history items in their collections?=20 >=20 > The other immediate task of urgency is to simply define a framework = for capturing such informal items as email discussions, or old = out-of-print documents, so that the nature of the content -- the = metadata -- is retained. Are statements eyewitness accounts "I was at = the meeting and XXX...", or hearsay "XXX told me that..." or analytic = conclusion "I examined 3 years of emails and concluded that ....", or = simply speculation "XXX happened just before YYY so XXX was the reason = that YYY decided to..." or maybe even revisionist work "Everyone knows = that XXX...". Good point, A collection framework would let donors know what is being = or should be saved. This is something we could start doing soon. =20 > This would enormously help some future historians trying to piece = together what actually happened from all of the opinions and variants of = reality that will undoubtedly emerge. >=20 > For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my = notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from various = meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early working = groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, where = should I FTP the files...? And, Jack, don't throw away the originals.......... :-) Jake >=20 > /Jack Haverty >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: nethistory-request@ietf.org > Date: May 24, 2013 8:01:30 PM PDT > Subject: confirm 42bc9f42c586432c372ba2c77daafbb055bb8734 >=20 >=20 > If you reply to this message, keeping the Subject: header intact, > Mailman will discard the held message. Do this if the message is > spam. If you reply to this message and include an Approved: header > with the list password in it, the message will be approved for posting > to the list. The Approved: header can also appear in the first line > of the body of the reply. >=20 --Apple-Mail-3-620797340 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii nethistory-owner@ietf.org = wrote:
As list administrator, your authorization is requested for = the
following mailing list posting:

   List: =    Nethistory@ietf.org
=    From:    jack@3kitty.org
=    Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of = networking, a possible methodology
   Reason: =  Post by non-member to a members-only list

At your = convenience, visit:

   https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/admindb/nethistory

to approve or deny the = request.

From: Jack Haverty <jack@3kitty.org>
Date: = May 24, 2013 7:59:12 PM PDT
Cc: = nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of = networking, a possible methodology


On = 05/23/2013 01:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
I think it is essential to have an organised method of = securing copies of material and putting them somewhere that has a high = probability of long-term survival. Crowdsourcing is a *great* method of = getting the material, but a lousy method of collecting and preserving = it.
I agree that the most urgent need is one or more = methods for capturing the history before it fades and changes beyond = recognition.   As one of the people who lived through the = early networking years of the 70s and 80s, I've been pretty disappointed = when I've read some of the "history of the Internet" books, which often = seem to be recounting the history of some other Internet from the one I = was involved with.

There's been a lot of historical "testimony" = over the last few years on this mailing = list.

Jack is pointing out a problem we are = having with the name of this mailing list.  Jack, I think you are = referring to network-history@postel.org = when you refer to 
" "testimony" over the last few = years."  Consequently, I propose we change the name of this group = to "Saving-nethistory@ietf.org = to avoid confusion in the names.  

You and = Brian have also  pointed out another problem that comes with = anecdotal history - it captures the essence of what happened and often = the nuances and details that would otherwise be lost; however, as time = goes on people's recollections dim and may not be accurate; thus there = is also a need for saving original works for reference. (NOTE: =  This is not a criticism of internet-history@postel.org as they have done a great job of documenting how the Internet evolved, = especially the technical decisions in which many members of that = discussion group participated.  I think what we would like to see = happen is that the documents, if any, that verify their recollections = along with the recollections themselves be saved for = posterity.


 But, like other old mailing lists, it may or may = not survive.   I'm certain that a lot of interesting history = was embodied in the old mailing lists like header-people, but doesn't = survive even three decades later.

And = this brings up the really big problem we are now facing, which will only = get worse over time:  How do we save historical material that is = only online?  Valuable history is out there, but there is no = guarantee it will remain.  To the best of my knowledge no one, = other than Brewster Kahle's Internet Archive, http://archive.org/, tries to archive = the whole web, and he can only archive what is in the public domain. (If = anyone knows of other such efforts, please let us know.)  What = constitutes an "original source" in the digital networking world and = where does it live????  What happens when an informative web site = just disappears?  For that matter, who owns website content - the = author or the web provider?  Even that is not clear, according to a = recent Time magazine article.

Perhaps some corporate or government sponsor could be = intrigued to serve simply as a long-term repository? =   Smithsonian? =  Google?

This, I think, is our first = task:  to try and identify existing repositories so at least = networking history donors are aware of them.  There are very few = repositories specifically dedicated to networking history; however, = there are significant collections located at government and private = libraries and museums.  Which of these have staying power for the = long term, and do they know the significance of the networking history = items in their collections? 

The = other immediate task of urgency is to simply define a framework for = capturing such informal items as email discussions, or old out-of-print = documents, so that the nature of the content -- the metadata --  is = retained.   Are statements eyewitness accounts "I was at the = meeting and XXX...", or hearsay "XXX told me that..." or analytic = conclusion "I examined 3 years of emails and concluded that ....", or = simply speculation "XXX happened just before YYY so XXX was the reason = that YYY decided to..." or maybe even revisionist work "Everyone knows = that XXX...".

Good point,  A = collection framework would let donors know what is being or should be = saved. This is something we could start doing soon. =  

This would enormously = help some future historians trying to piece together what actually = happened from all of the opinions and variants of reality that will = undoubtedly emerge.

For example, I recently did some garage = archaeology and unearthed my notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s = with all my notes from various meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other = meetings of the early working groups.  If I scan them before the = ink blurs beyond readability, where should I FTP the = files...?

And, Jack, don't throw away the = originals.......... =  :-)


= --Apple-Mail-3-620797340-- From swb@internet2.edu Tue May 28 12:56:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629BD21F9195 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 12:56:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wpyjhVPW9sp3 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 12:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from va3outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (va3ehsobe003.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.180.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496F921F91CB for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 12:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail67-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.245) by VA3EHSOBE001.bigfish.com (10.7.40.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Tue, 28 May 2013 19:55:55 +0000 Received: from mail67-va3 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail67-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2507D42016B; Tue, 28 May 2013 19:55:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.245.85; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:CH1PRD0811HT002.namprd08.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: 9 X-BigFish: S9(z56bfizbb2dI98dIzz1f42h1d77h1ee6h1de0h1fdah1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ah1fc6h1082kzz177df4h17326ah19a27bh172cdfh8275dhz2dh2a8h668h839h947hd25he5bhf0ah1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah13b6h1441h1504h1537h153bh162dh1631h1758h1765h18e1h190ch1946h19b4h19c3h19ceh1ad9h1b0ah1d0ch1d2eh1d3fh1b1cn1b1bi1155h) Received: from mail67-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail67-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1369770895246555_17887; Tue, 28 May 2013 19:54:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from VA3EHSMHS029.bigfish.com (unknown [10.7.14.251]) by mail67-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D5620551; Tue, 28 May 2013 19:54:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1PRD0811HT002.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (157.56.245.85) by VA3EHSMHS029.bigfish.com (10.7.99.39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Tue, 28 May 2013 19:54:54 +0000 Received: from swbi2mbp.local (67.241.75.185) by pod51019.outlook.com (10.255.155.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.311.1; Tue, 28 May 2013 19:54:52 +0000 Message-ID: <51A50B8A.9040708@internet2.edu> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 15:54:50 -0400 From: Scott Brim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elizabeth Feinler References: <7A795ABA-BA2F-4299-AEF2-B1F18F050B8E@EARTHLINK.NET> In-Reply-To: <7A795ABA-BA2F-4299-AEF2-B1F18F050B8E@EARTHLINK.NET> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [67.241.75.185] X-OriginatorOrg: internet2.edu Cc: nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Nethistory post from jack@3kitty.org requires approval X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 19:56:07 -0000 On 05/28/13 15:40, Elizabeth Feinler allegedly wrote: > This, I think, is our first task: to try and identify existing > repositories so at least networking history donors are aware of them. > There are very few repositories specifically dedicated to networking > history; however, there are significant collections located at > government and private libraries and museums. Which of these have > staying power for the long term, and do they know the significance of > the networking history items in their collections? Related: a registry of repositories. As you identify history repositories, please register them. Right now I know of two independent ones, naturally :-p ... http://www.re3data.org/ http://databib.org/about.php Scott From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Tue May 28 13:14:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4C821F8B35 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 13:14:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6cGvNu2wSyF8 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 13:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f170.google.com (mail-pd0-f170.google.com [209.85.192.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0108F21F8E2A for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 13:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f170.google.com with SMTP id x10so7924458pdj.29 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 13:14:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=taiCOP79RCvoMOUmESBMTBYEHUvkdvjcKnP06gXnTCc=; b=lJd6/Lnj1Bd7IqUstJHCEFNyGpmUlRnDqlw3urASOUoJi1OuxkouHDZ/7SoY3w0Z61 WyTYwvEzlQ/IUtT7RJdqnXImAjEgv8x5nzQ/WqBWNFkha9J9aausWz5KIuVo+5k+QGDQ s5OobGv7rA6r3PA1Ct5261Hem83YRtoEJwrnZIE5vdwpaSv8WTGGfcDC2uSbqjknAt87 HsH5shjy0DY1cO5FCbuyyhh+bXBMj2Fx8Z/g3Ck1+5JPuDX48Pr85S1wgTmM/4ijBRuU onxXwNdJMUvoX/Z/YHIOBdLZkrCJNRsyqyhddGRBwKnSug73AnL11aRb4aR2CFMq6wPY i5BQ== X-Received: by 10.69.2.228 with SMTP id br4mr16093390pbd.91.1369772071610; Tue, 28 May 2013 13:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (253.150.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz. [27.252.150.253]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id w8sm34130967pbo.9.2013.05.28.13.14.27 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 28 May 2013 13:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51A51022.5020902@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 08:14:26 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Brim References: <7A795ABA-BA2F-4299-AEF2-B1F18F050B8E@EARTHLINK.NET> <51A50B8A.9040708@internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: <51A50B8A.9040708@internet2.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Elizabeth Feinler , nethistory@ietf.org Subject: [Nethistory] Repositories X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 20:14:39 -0000 I'd *really* appreciate it if messages on this list had appropriate subject headers. "digest" and "requires approval" tend to lead directly to the delete button. More below... On 29/05/2013 07:54, Scott Brim wrote: > On 05/28/13 15:40, Elizabeth Feinler allegedly wrote: >> This, I think, is our first task: to try and identify existing >> repositories so at least networking history donors are aware of them. >> There are very few repositories specifically dedicated to networking >> history; however, there are significant collections located at >> government and private libraries and museums. Which of these have >> staying power for the long term, and do they know the significance of >> the networking history items in their collections? > > Related: a registry of repositories. As you identify history > repositories, please register them. Right now I know of two independent > ones, naturally :-p ... > > http://www.re3data.org/ > > http://databib.org/about.php Fair enough, but long term stability of the repositories is even more important. Quite a few of the ones I'm aware of are maintained by individual mortals, and that is not sufficient. Brian From jack@3kitty.org Tue May 28 17:39:14 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112CD21F8B65 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1U8SJGUTgJ-Y for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail46.atl.registeredsite.com (mail46.atl.registeredsite.com [209.237.134.236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B4911E80D2 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mymail.myregisteredsite.com (wmailnode3e.webmail.web.com [209.237.135.47]) by mail46.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with SMTP id r4T0d7SI001667 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 20:39:07 -0400 Received: (qmail 1762 invoked by uid 80); 29 May 2013 00:39:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail-pa0-f46.google.com) (jack@3kitty.org@209.85.220.46) by wmailnode3e.mymail.myregisteredsite.com with ESMTPA; 29 May 2013 00:39:07 -0000 Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id fa1so1113816pad.5 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=64Om5XMRAXMksnRmkIQN6EUtTX1x57VBhQpMVjYFPnA=; b=W+GLT3aBh1fiGSVJMPa4Fxc0ImyqWTLw3AonK7fBd1i6XQ2gWUm8hzGMUD/xGCwGZ+ 3c/ix68yOtWqdBKQiW9WnQ/c2WRc7rJ0CCdcDvA1q5F+13D5VEF/zvqBMk/uKqVEsF1Q 5ib3Vz21Y7eUAP3hLzMvszqoA9qdg/GOjRvHwknWDxiP28S68XeZ2Jl38l2kLFMYa9gc 9VX/gY7In3HRF03t+mATkgkxoveslamM2QCwMKeoPGi99RAZwy9MCQ80lscgEpBOgKzR thFGxPlMwKMn6FefNPKHI3lOAoXeG1LrWr4DdCTddXncLhbi/FLPkxxkg64ZDS4cx3rW cu4Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.230.40 with SMTP id sv8mr336604pbc.30.1369787946315; Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.98.144 with HTTP; Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:06 -0700 Message-ID: From: Jack Haverty To: Elizabeth Feinler Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 May 2013 09:22:11 -0700 Cc: nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 00:39:14 -0000 Hi Jake, Yes, you're right - I was referring to the Internet list maintained at postel.org. It's hard to keep track of these things..... I have a suggestion for a "repository" of sorts. I've gotten involved in a little consulting involving a patent dispute, for which prior art from the 70s/80s would be relevant. So I've been looking for old documents -- not just recollections, to back up what I (think I) still remember about what happened when. Most of the early work on Internet stuff was done under some government contract, and I believe those contracts all required submitting deliverables - tangible output. I remember at BBN writing lots of quarterly reports and other such things, and they all got sent to the government as a deliverable. Some deliverables were actual software listings. I'm pretty sure other contractors - SRI, ISI, Linkabit, Collins/Rockwell, etc., had to do the same. I suspect most of such documents were never submitted to NIC, since they weren't all that relevant to others at the time. But they're chock full of material that might be very interesting to a historian now. Some of those early docs I've managed to find online, especially at DTIC, including quite a few BBN QTRs from the earliest days of the Internet. But I've never found any SRI, ISI, etc., docs. Maybe I just don't know how to search for them. All of these docs would be extremely valuable as a historical record, since they contained lots of details about the actual progress in the development of the Internet.. My niece's husband is a Contracting Officer's Technical Representative (COTR) in the Army, and I asked him last week what happens to contract deliverables on government contracts. His answer is that they're all saved somewhere. So, ... maybe there's a lot of juicy historical material in some dusty government basement "repository" somewhere. Perhaps someone knows how to find it... how's that for a task for the professional historians? Find that repository, then get as much relevant material as possible out of it and into an enduring safe place. I suspect a good starting point would be the contract numbers. A lot of the early BBN work on the Internet was done under MDA903-80-C-0353 & -0214 or NOO039-8l-C-0408, out of DSSW/Navelex. Maybe you have some of the old SRI contract numbers too. Googling a contract number produces a lot of material at DTIC from that contract, but not all. A lot must be still just on paper, if it exists at all. /Jack On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Elizabeth Feinler wrote: > From: Jack Haverty > Date: May 24, 2013 7:59:12 PM PDT > Cc: nethistory@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible > methodology > > > On 05/23/2013 01:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > I think it is essential to have an organised method of securing copies of > material and putting them somewhere that has a high probability of long-term > survival. Crowdsourcing is a *great* method of getting the material, but a > lousy method of collecting and preserving it. > > I agree that the most urgent need is one or more methods for capturing the > history before it fades and changes beyond recognition. As one of the > people who lived through the early networking years of the 70s and 80s, I've > been pretty disappointed when I've read some of the "history of the > Internet" books, which often seem to be recounting the history of some other > Internet from the one I was involved with. > > There's been a lot of historical "testimony" over the last few years on this > mailing list. > > > Jack is pointing out a problem we are having with the name of this mailing > list. Jack, I think you are referring to network-history@postel.org when > you refer to > " "testimony" over the last few years." Consequently, I propose we change > the name of this group to "Saving-nethistory@ietf.org to avoid confusion in > the names. > > You and Brian have also pointed out another problem that comes with > anecdotal history - it captures the essence of what happened and often the > nuances and details that would otherwise be lost; however, as time goes on > people's recollections dim and may not be accurate; thus there is also a > need for saving original works for reference. (NOTE: This is not a > criticism of internet-history@postel.org as they have done a great job of > documenting how the Internet evolved, especially the technical decisions in > which many members of that discussion group participated. I think what we > would like to see happen is that the documents, if any, that verify their > recollections along with the recollections themselves be saved for > posterity. > > We are lucky that networking history is such a young discipline that we can > still ask the person(s) who did the work how it was done. We must also > realize that that time will soon be past and act accordingly. > > But, like other old mailing lists, it may or may not survive. I'm certain > that a lot of interesting history was embodied in the old mailing lists like > header-people, but doesn't survive even three decades later. > > > And this brings up the really big problem we are now facing, which will only > get worse over time: How do we save historical material that is only > online? Valuable history is out there, but there is no guarantee it will > remain. To the best of my knowledge no one, other than Brewster Kahle's > Internet Archive, http://archive.org/, tries to archive the whole web, and > he can only archive what is in the public domain. (If anyone knows of other > such efforts, please let us know.) What constitutes an "original source" in > the digital networking world and where does it live???? What happens when > an informative web site just disappears? For that matter, who owns website > content - the author or the web provider? Even that is not clear, according > to a recent Time magazine article. > > > Perhaps some corporate or government sponsor could be intrigued to serve > simply as a long-term repository? Smithsonian? Google? > > > This, I think, is our first task: to try and identify existing repositories > so at least networking history donors are aware of them. There are very few > repositories specifically dedicated to networking history; however, there > are significant collections located at government and private libraries and > museums. Which of these have staying power for the long term, and do they > know the significance of the networking history items in their collections? > > > The other immediate task of urgency is to simply define a framework for > capturing such informal items as email discussions, or old out-of-print > documents, so that the nature of the content -- the metadata -- is > retained. Are statements eyewitness accounts "I was at the meeting and > XXX...", or hearsay "XXX told me that..." or analytic conclusion "I examined > 3 years of emails and concluded that ....", or simply speculation "XXX > happened just before YYY so XXX was the reason that YYY decided to..." or > maybe even revisionist work "Everyone knows that XXX...". > > > Good point, A collection framework would let donors know what is being or > should be saved. This is something we could start doing soon. > > This would enormously help some future historians trying to piece together > what actually happened from all of the opinions and variants of reality that > will undoubtedly emerge. > > For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my > notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from various > meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early working > groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, where > should I FTP the files...? > > > And, Jack, don't throw away the originals.......... :-) > > Jake > > > /Jack Haverty > > From jack@3kitty.org Tue May 28 17:39:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA76121F8B65 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EuFX3PDyue1b for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail45.atl.registeredsite.com (mail45.atl.registeredsite.com [209.237.134.235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B8521F8749 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mymail.myregisteredsite.com (wmailnode3e.webmail.web.com [209.237.135.47]) by mail45.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with SMTP id r4T0d7i0025698 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 20:39:12 -0400 Received: (qmail 1762 invoked by uid 80); 29 May 2013 00:39:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail-pa0-f46.google.com) (jack@3kitty.org@209.85.220.46) by wmailnode3e.mymail.myregisteredsite.com with ESMTPA; 29 May 2013 00:39:07 -0000 Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id fa1so1113816pad.5 for ; Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=64Om5XMRAXMksnRmkIQN6EUtTX1x57VBhQpMVjYFPnA=; b=W+GLT3aBh1fiGSVJMPa4Fxc0ImyqWTLw3AonK7fBd1i6XQ2gWUm8hzGMUD/xGCwGZ+ 3c/ix68yOtWqdBKQiW9WnQ/c2WRc7rJ0CCdcDvA1q5F+13D5VEF/zvqBMk/uKqVEsF1Q 5ib3Vz21Y7eUAP3hLzMvszqoA9qdg/GOjRvHwknWDxiP28S68XeZ2Jl38l2kLFMYa9gc 9VX/gY7In3HRF03t+mATkgkxoveslamM2QCwMKeoPGi99RAZwy9MCQ80lscgEpBOgKzR thFGxPlMwKMn6FefNPKHI3lOAoXeG1LrWr4DdCTddXncLhbi/FLPkxxkg64ZDS4cx3rW cu4Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.230.40 with SMTP id sv8mr336604pbc.30.1369787946315; Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.98.144 with HTTP; Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 17:39:06 -0700 Message-ID: From: Jack Haverty To: Elizabeth Feinler Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 May 2013 09:22:09 -0700 Cc: nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 00:39:18 -0000 Hi Jake, Yes, you're right - I was referring to the Internet list maintained at postel.org. It's hard to keep track of these things..... I have a suggestion for a "repository" of sorts. I've gotten involved in a little consulting involving a patent dispute, for which prior art from the 70s/80s would be relevant. So I've been looking for old documents -- not just recollections, to back up what I (think I) still remember about what happened when. Most of the early work on Internet stuff was done under some government contract, and I believe those contracts all required submitting deliverables - tangible output. I remember at BBN writing lots of quarterly reports and other such things, and they all got sent to the government as a deliverable. Some deliverables were actual software listings. I'm pretty sure other contractors - SRI, ISI, Linkabit, Collins/Rockwell, etc., had to do the same. I suspect most of such documents were never submitted to NIC, since they weren't all that relevant to others at the time. But they're chock full of material that might be very interesting to a historian now. Some of those early docs I've managed to find online, especially at DTIC, including quite a few BBN QTRs from the earliest days of the Internet. But I've never found any SRI, ISI, etc., docs. Maybe I just don't know how to search for them. All of these docs would be extremely valuable as a historical record, since they contained lots of details about the actual progress in the development of the Internet.. My niece's husband is a Contracting Officer's Technical Representative (COTR) in the Army, and I asked him last week what happens to contract deliverables on government contracts. His answer is that they're all saved somewhere. So, ... maybe there's a lot of juicy historical material in some dusty government basement "repository" somewhere. Perhaps someone knows how to find it... how's that for a task for the professional historians? Find that repository, then get as much relevant material as possible out of it and into an enduring safe place. I suspect a good starting point would be the contract numbers. A lot of the early BBN work on the Internet was done under MDA903-80-C-0353 & -0214 or NOO039-8l-C-0408, out of DSSW/Navelex. Maybe you have some of the old SRI contract numbers too. Googling a contract number produces a lot of material at DTIC from that contract, but not all. A lot must be still just on paper, if it exists at all. /Jack On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Elizabeth Feinler wrote: > From: Jack Haverty > Date: May 24, 2013 7:59:12 PM PDT > Cc: nethistory@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible > methodology > > > On 05/23/2013 01:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > I think it is essential to have an organised method of securing copies of > material and putting them somewhere that has a high probability of long-term > survival. Crowdsourcing is a *great* method of getting the material, but a > lousy method of collecting and preserving it. > > I agree that the most urgent need is one or more methods for capturing the > history before it fades and changes beyond recognition. As one of the > people who lived through the early networking years of the 70s and 80s, I've > been pretty disappointed when I've read some of the "history of the > Internet" books, which often seem to be recounting the history of some other > Internet from the one I was involved with. > > There's been a lot of historical "testimony" over the last few years on this > mailing list. > > > Jack is pointing out a problem we are having with the name of this mailing > list. Jack, I think you are referring to network-history@postel.org when > you refer to > " "testimony" over the last few years." Consequently, I propose we change > the name of this group to "Saving-nethistory@ietf.org to avoid confusion in > the names. > > You and Brian have also pointed out another problem that comes with > anecdotal history - it captures the essence of what happened and often the > nuances and details that would otherwise be lost; however, as time goes on > people's recollections dim and may not be accurate; thus there is also a > need for saving original works for reference. (NOTE: This is not a > criticism of internet-history@postel.org as they have done a great job of > documenting how the Internet evolved, especially the technical decisions in > which many members of that discussion group participated. I think what we > would like to see happen is that the documents, if any, that verify their > recollections along with the recollections themselves be saved for > posterity. > > We are lucky that networking history is such a young discipline that we can > still ask the person(s) who did the work how it was done. We must also > realize that that time will soon be past and act accordingly. > > But, like other old mailing lists, it may or may not survive. I'm certain > that a lot of interesting history was embodied in the old mailing lists like > header-people, but doesn't survive even three decades later. > > > And this brings up the really big problem we are now facing, which will only > get worse over time: How do we save historical material that is only > online? Valuable history is out there, but there is no guarantee it will > remain. To the best of my knowledge no one, other than Brewster Kahle's > Internet Archive, http://archive.org/, tries to archive the whole web, and > he can only archive what is in the public domain. (If anyone knows of other > such efforts, please let us know.) What constitutes an "original source" in > the digital networking world and where does it live???? What happens when > an informative web site just disappears? For that matter, who owns website > content - the author or the web provider? Even that is not clear, according > to a recent Time magazine article. > > > Perhaps some corporate or government sponsor could be intrigued to serve > simply as a long-term repository? Smithsonian? Google? > > > This, I think, is our first task: to try and identify existing repositories > so at least networking history donors are aware of them. There are very few > repositories specifically dedicated to networking history; however, there > are significant collections located at government and private libraries and > museums. Which of these have staying power for the long term, and do they > know the significance of the networking history items in their collections? > > > The other immediate task of urgency is to simply define a framework for > capturing such informal items as email discussions, or old out-of-print > documents, so that the nature of the content -- the metadata -- is > retained. Are statements eyewitness accounts "I was at the meeting and > XXX...", or hearsay "XXX told me that..." or analytic conclusion "I examined > 3 years of emails and concluded that ....", or simply speculation "XXX > happened just before YYY so XXX was the reason that YYY decided to..." or > maybe even revisionist work "Everyone knows that XXX...". > > > Good point, A collection framework would let donors know what is being or > should be saved. This is something we could start doing soon. > > This would enormously help some future historians trying to piece together > what actually happened from all of the opinions and variants of reality that > will undoubtedly emerge. > > For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my > notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from various > meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early working > groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, where > should I FTP the files...? > > > And, Jack, don't throw away the originals.......... :-) > > Jake > > > /Jack Haverty > > From thompson@ieee.org Wed May 29 15:08:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C0E21F93E1 for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 15:08:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yIp1sjvvbO7D for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 15:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm6.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm6.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.212.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DFEC21F93D2 for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 15:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [98.139.212.153] by nm6.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 May 2013 22:08:42 -0000 Received: from [98.139.213.4] by tm10.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 May 2013 22:08:42 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 May 2013 22:08:42 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 734784.25714.bm@smtp104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: ICi5FFgVM1kM1vJmD1pdR5gbfM_ObWsHcQCfLVs.2m4H8co AKnRizhucIVDYoAcTmRuostt4JvyDvQBkFjbRhcMJNuBKDf2uuf3l029Fsxc fEokDMAM8zvtgD8ZawSIlP0TUxiYpfZ5D83lHo1gYlaC1N5IvmptHw9t817q 6SCxX1f5shGxTOVuVgnGmK7gf9v3PlDIfWs_wfb75Smp0PfkoOUQA9X7MkcU NgYKvSLs5mEJgMRXR.m46Z2RGtSKyzUpDqs3yXdt1wwDvTiEM7CGX9XClxFw URY6sNfuL2g7RsoxuEQOQP6NBM12ioTUeIpr.uS2Tq6M8eEehk9stCXZnpoW daho.IppbeHGJjgt8jd2tkVFifpkj.5gDZ1mv91qmsfalb.vX_X7YNc_hd2f GbWA0oAwiVRK47YLEmssZTToKRLXPfkffo6xdYrt82Pr0i_vqK_MqPYYa.gp Ut2Y3LzsHGXG59OpTmmQqgsxHrMQzqjq9Z7z7Rmvmfktp6mR7yTtFJXue3on FeiF750fNKUkNTOYymo8W1Nc9 X-Yahoo-SMTP: QyU90.qswBBpdAOL14e1mfwUogr5DY5wzs_aWTD7HWypLbttNQmnq7k- X-Rocket-Received: from geoff-thompsons-macbook-2.local (thompson@99.123.6.225 with ) by smtp104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 May 2013 15:08:42 -0700 PDT Message-ID: <51A67C68.6050407@ieee.org> Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 15:08:40 -0700 From: Geoff Thompson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jack Haverty References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Elizabeth Feinler , nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: thompson@ieee.org List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 22:08:55 -0000 Jack On 5/28/13 5:39 PM, Jack Haverty wrote: > My niece's husband is a Contracting Officer's Technical Representative > (COTR) in the Army, and I asked him last week what happens to contract > deliverables on government contracts. His answer is that they're all > saved somewhere. So, ... maybe there's a lot of juicy historical > material in some dusty government basement "repository" somewhere. > Sounds just like the last scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" Geoff From nielsonz@pacbell.net Wed May 29 17:38:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 856CA21F8CEC for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 17:38:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FQTuAaJUMt4H for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 17:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm1-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm1-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.27]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FD221F8EBB for ; Wed, 29 May 2013 17:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.94.237.199] by nm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 May 2013 00:38:53 -0000 Received: from [98.138.104.97] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 May 2013 00:38:53 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp117.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 May 2013 00:38:53 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pacbell.net; s=s1024; t=1369874333; bh=c1P4NYIIGZz4kchuMG/yNw58FyuRDx0qs5vNmsRFG4A=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-Rocket-Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=3VUpgM2tnGqStEtBcWZlurJRQtOu1COQrsswfG7kS34GmSmfGlxR7i2Q7eK9evcbZVd50aQmq+BFi4+MC5xtZM0f0KrYFiJJ9D0HA2D6JhTLHwYNjHO7r3m2vgh6C1HXR/AwGyP/9bGij4dRLnG+vart4JhVufEbvRutOvKnrJI= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 525351.48893.bm@smtp117.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: IK.GMHAVM1lNhwtMwG4efIXG1iSSR9.PTb7pCtC0AVJWdqg 6PDn8F3oINE29N6mVgscYr3TSebXxH6CXiPEaqS7YR78bwzylQ49rNqkgG54 EtlRF83ulrT.YP63NjCEOx5szDvhjgkravKQWA7y.ALJDpkvi.cgy7K2KUxv 9gtpQb8ndnu7ShEDBrPB8vViSTzBZiuXaPIdKs0CfOvqYCoZ_RTAvO3v1WLT Q3WwtaiWmaMNYfdFZQrof8ZFCQ1Gqh9U_DqzaPfL6fn6uqBegQrNaKEGvGMB iBjxK61SBYNCr2Ap_R5QoLEjQBAdve37JRxrCQMZmwdHFFcY8thrfEzLKrT2 xggjnCpa5Dhs7ZeCNf6GyN4K5fgwL4Q7rMFSYbp7TR5lsuuTn6M7AxRtoSX1 5TVlpyh_oYtaGNTR3OGrxX72sKym_kOpdP1UvPqQUx0mMAOnNYdBF.lPy2RE eZFWHsoJ_lD_JchzF9PZdQUAorTYYqN5iF93FvNrgAXxFRkcAAj4Fbpanx1w vPHUY3WAsy7km7qFPRGaboKPQQxnA9WR2mYOXSE0rEu1iekTN_b0GmX6xDqc 71R09TI4XqkPQbq1DSutA419BDJeTUMLELO0uakSeh8hQFR.vjcHo.Zkl.Xs EUhj3Ww-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: 0SWYE_uswBCDhATjuK.USsnkSKZulN1fY_V1WPsp2KMX X-Rocket-Received: from Dons-iMac.local (nielsonz@75.18.191.149 with plain) by smtp117.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 May 2013 00:38:53 +0000 UTC Message-ID: <51A69F9B.2050108@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 17:38:51 -0700 From: Don Nielson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jack Haverty References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Marc Weber , "Elizabeth \"Jake\" Feinler" , nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible methodology X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 00:38:59 -0000 Jack, Jake, and Marc, A short while ago I was able to compile copies of almost all of the SRI required deliverables on packet radio that, of course, involve some earliest internet work as packet radio became one of the networks needed for inclusion. This involved stuffing the earliest versions of TCP into an LSI-11 attached to the radios. I had kept copies of many of the progress reports but SRI's record retention archives had almost all as well. This included some of the required "management reports" that reflected financials. As far as I know, however, there was never a requirement to deliver code...just to share it where appropriate. Some of the above reports were in DTIC as well but they turned out to be a problem because they had distribution restrictions on them and their pdf files wouldn't permit the deletion of those pages...even though DARPA had given us their permission for release! Yes, we had to get DARPA permission for unlimited distribution....and did. All those reports are now in pdf format for people who want them. I was going to give a set to the Computer History Museum. They go back to about 1973. I also have another pile of packet radio temporary notes that I haven't decided what to do with. Jack, I would think that BBN has some sort of repository for at least deliverables. I also wanted to find those early 1970s emails the we used among us to conduct our "collaborations" but I can't locate them. Those weekly email reports, sometimes containing "flames", would be a detailed account of internet work in the earliest of TCP development. Maybe I should try harder. Don On 5/28/13 5:39 PM, Jack Haverty wrote: > Hi Jake, > > Yes, you're right - I was referring to the Internet list maintained at > postel.org. It's hard to keep track of these things..... > > I have a suggestion for a "repository" of sorts. I've gotten > involved in a little consulting involving a patent dispute, for which > prior art from the 70s/80s would be relevant. So I've been looking > for old documents -- not just recollections, to back up what I (think > I) still remember about what happened when. > > Most of the early work on Internet stuff was done under some > government contract, and I believe those contracts all required > submitting deliverables - tangible output. I remember at BBN writing > lots of quarterly reports and other such things, and they all got sent > to the government as a deliverable. Some deliverables were actual > software listings. I'm pretty sure other contractors - SRI, ISI, > Linkabit, Collins/Rockwell, etc., had to do the same. I suspect most > of such documents were never submitted to NIC, since they weren't all > that relevant to others at the time. But they're chock full of > material that might be very interesting to a historian now. > > Some of those early docs I've managed to find online, especially at > DTIC, including quite a few BBN QTRs from the earliest days of the > Internet. But I've never found any SRI, ISI, etc., docs. Maybe I > just don't know how to search for them. All of these docs would be > extremely valuable as a historical record, since they contained lots > of details about the actual progress in the development of the > Internet.. > > My niece's husband is a Contracting Officer's Technical Representative > (COTR) in the Army, and I asked him last week what happens to contract > deliverables on government contracts. His answer is that they're all > saved somewhere. So, ... maybe there's a lot of juicy historical > material in some dusty government basement "repository" somewhere. > > Perhaps someone knows how to find it... how's that for a task for the > professional historians? Find that repository, then get as much > relevant material as possible out of it and into an enduring safe > place. I suspect a good starting point would be the contract numbers. > A lot of the early BBN work on the Internet was done under > MDA903-80-C-0353 & -0214 or NOO039-8l-C-0408, out of DSSW/Navelex. > Maybe you have some of the old SRI contract numbers too. Googling a > contract number produces a lot of material at DTIC from that contract, > but not all. A lot must be still just on paper, if it exists at all. > > /Jack > > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Elizabeth Feinler > wrote: > >> From: Jack Haverty >> Date: May 24, 2013 7:59:12 PM PDT >> Cc: nethistory@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Nethistory] Collecting the history of networking, a possible >> methodology >> >> >> On 05/23/2013 01:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> I think it is essential to have an organised method of securing copies of >> material and putting them somewhere that has a high probability of long-term >> survival. Crowdsourcing is a *great* method of getting the material, but a >> lousy method of collecting and preserving it. >> >> I agree that the most urgent need is one or more methods for capturing the >> history before it fades and changes beyond recognition. As one of the >> people who lived through the early networking years of the 70s and 80s, I've >> been pretty disappointed when I've read some of the "history of the >> Internet" books, which often seem to be recounting the history of some other >> Internet from the one I was involved with. >> >> There's been a lot of historical "testimony" over the last few years on this >> mailing list. >> >> >> Jack is pointing out a problem we are having with the name of this mailing >> list. Jack, I think you are referring to network-history@postel.org when >> you refer to >> " "testimony" over the last few years." Consequently, I propose we change >> the name of this group to "Saving-nethistory@ietf.org to avoid confusion in >> the names. >> >> You and Brian have also pointed out another problem that comes with >> anecdotal history - it captures the essence of what happened and often the >> nuances and details that would otherwise be lost; however, as time goes on >> people's recollections dim and may not be accurate; thus there is also a >> need for saving original works for reference. (NOTE: This is not a >> criticism of internet-history@postel.org as they have done a great job of >> documenting how the Internet evolved, especially the technical decisions in >> which many members of that discussion group participated. I think what we >> would like to see happen is that the documents, if any, that verify their >> recollections along with the recollections themselves be saved for >> posterity. >> >> We are lucky that networking history is such a young discipline that we can >> still ask the person(s) who did the work how it was done. We must also >> realize that that time will soon be past and act accordingly. >> >> But, like other old mailing lists, it may or may not survive. I'm certain >> that a lot of interesting history was embodied in the old mailing lists like >> header-people, but doesn't survive even three decades later. >> >> >> And this brings up the really big problem we are now facing, which will only >> get worse over time: How do we save historical material that is only >> online? Valuable history is out there, but there is no guarantee it will >> remain. To the best of my knowledge no one, other than Brewster Kahle's >> Internet Archive, http://archive.org/, tries to archive the whole web, and >> he can only archive what is in the public domain. (If anyone knows of other >> such efforts, please let us know.) What constitutes an "original source" in >> the digital networking world and where does it live???? What happens when >> an informative web site just disappears? For that matter, who owns website >> content - the author or the web provider? Even that is not clear, according >> to a recent Time magazine article. >> >> >> Perhaps some corporate or government sponsor could be intrigued to serve >> simply as a long-term repository? Smithsonian? Google? >> >> >> This, I think, is our first task: to try and identify existing repositories >> so at least networking history donors are aware of them. There are very few >> repositories specifically dedicated to networking history; however, there >> are significant collections located at government and private libraries and >> museums. Which of these have staying power for the long term, and do they >> know the significance of the networking history items in their collections? >> >> >> The other immediate task of urgency is to simply define a framework for >> capturing such informal items as email discussions, or old out-of-print >> documents, so that the nature of the content -- the metadata -- is >> retained. Are statements eyewitness accounts "I was at the meeting and >> XXX...", or hearsay "XXX told me that..." or analytic conclusion "I examined >> 3 years of emails and concluded that ....", or simply speculation "XXX >> happened just before YYY so XXX was the reason that YYY decided to..." or >> maybe even revisionist work "Everyone knows that XXX...". >> >> >> Good point, A collection framework would let donors know what is being or >> should be saved. This is something we could start doing soon. >> >> This would enormously help some future historians trying to piece together >> what actually happened from all of the opinions and variants of reality that >> will undoubtedly emerge. >> >> For example, I recently did some garage archaeology and unearthed my >> notebooks from the late 70s and early 80s with all my notes from various >> meetings of TCP, IP, ICCB/IAB, and other meetings of the early working >> groups. If I scan them before the ink blurs beyond readability, where >> should I FTP the files...? >> >> >> And, Jack, don't throw away the originals.......... :-) >> >> Jake >> >> >> /Jack Haverty >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Nethistory mailing list > Nethistory@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory > From arussell@stevens.edu Thu May 30 06:23:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: nethistory@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB2E21F92FC for ; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mXv1UM8vxILs for ; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na3sys009aog129.obsmtp.com (na3sys009aog129.obsmtp.com [74.125.149.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5599221F8B16 for ; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nexus.stevens.edu ([155.246.14.12]) by na3sys009aob129.postini.com ([74.125.148.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUadSvFItsnvjPKfU2f7vxlOpB+XbXga6@postini.com; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:09 PDT Received: from alr.home (pool-100-1-44-238.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net [100.1.44.238]) (Authenticated sender: arussell) by nexus.stevens.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4703030099B for ; Thu, 30 May 2013 09:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) From: Andrew Russell In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 09:23:10 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: "nethistory@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Subject: [Nethistory] Networking records in National Archives X-BeenThere: nethistory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Matching net historical materials with institutions that may preserve them List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 13:23:15 -0000 On May 28, 2013, at 8:39 PM, Jack Haverty wrote: >=20 > Perhaps someone knows how to find it... how's that for a task for the > professional historians? Find that repository, then get as much > relevant material as possible out of it and into an enduring safe > place. I suspect a good starting point would be the contract numbers. > A lot of the early BBN work on the Internet was done under > MDA903-80-C-0353 & -0214 or NOO039-8l-C-0408, out of DSSW/Navelex. > Maybe you have some of the old SRI contract numbers too. Googling a > contract number produces a lot of material at DTIC from that contract, > but not all. A lot must be still just on paper, if it exists at all. >=20 If those records still exist, then they are likely in a very safe place, = the National Archives - http://www.archives.gov/. Finding them and = getting access to them is a different trick that requires old-fashioned = archival research - costly, dusty, frustrating, and time-consuming. I'm = not surprised that Google isn't turning up too much, and I can't imagine = that Congress is planning to fund the digitization of the National = Archives anytime soon ;-) Off the top of my head, several professional historians have done = research on networking in those archives, including Arthur Norberg, Alex = Roland, Janet Abbate, and (most recently) Jon Laprise. Paul Ceruzzi at = the National Air & Space Museum might have some insights as well. Again - this is just the US; Valerie Schafer in France has had some luck = with the INRIA archives (for Cyclades), and I have to believe that = archival (aka paper) materials exist in the UK, Norway, etc. Andy