Subject: Re: [nmrg] next meeting location
From: Szabolcs Boros <[email-masked]>
To: Network Management Research Group <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:16:56 +0100
List-Id: Network Management Research Group <nmrg.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de>

Hi, 

I would also like to participate. Pisa is not a problem. 

szabi

Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> 
> Those who plan to attend the next NMRG meeting - would it be a problem
> for you if we move the meeting from Florence to Pisa?
> 
> Luca Deri is living in Pisa and this would make the logistics a bit
> simpler.
> 
> Please drop me a note.
> 
> /js
> 
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder      University of Osnabrueck
> <[email-masked]>       Dept. of Mathematics and Computer Science
> Phone: +49 541 969 2483    Albrechtstr. 28, 49069 Osnabrueck, Germany
> Fax:   +49 541 969 2770    <http://www.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/>
> 
> --
> !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list.
> !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust
> !! your settings, send a mail message to <[email-masked]>
> !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg.

From: John Strassner <[email-masked]>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:25:59 -0700
Sender: [email-masked]

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Hi Juergen,
Sorry, I've been on Holiday last week. I'm interested and will try to
attend.

regards,
John
 
John Strassner
Chief Strategy Officer
Intelliden Corporation
90 South Cascade Avenue
Colorado Springs, CO  80903  USA
phone: +1.719.785.0648
  FAX: +1.719.785.0644
email: [email-masked] 

-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 6:10 AM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting

>>>>> J P Martin-Flatin writes:

JP> Where shall we meet?

So far, I only have received clear responses from five people:

Jean-Phillipe Martin-Flatin     yes
Marcus Brunner                  yes
Juergen Schoenwaelder           yes
Bert Wijnen                     maybe
Andrea Westerinen               yes

I would like to hear from the other folks on this list, especially
those who will be in Italy at that time. If we are only four people,
we can meet almost everywhere. If we end up being ten or so, we need
to figure out where we can get a nice and cheap meeting room.

So please, if you are not listed above, let me know ASAP whether you
plan to attend or not. Thanks,

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder      University of Osnabrueck
<[email-masked]>       Dept. of Mathematics and Computer Science
Phone: +49 541 969 2483    Albrechtstr. 28, 49069 Osnabrueck, Germany
Fax:   +49 541 969 2770    <http://www.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/>

-- 
!! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list.
!! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or
adjust
!! your settings, send a mail message to <[email-masked]>
!! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg.

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<TITLE>RE: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi Juergen,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sorry, I've been on Holiday last week. I'm =
interested and will try to attend.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>John</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>John Strassner</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Chief Strategy Officer</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Intelliden Corporation</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>90 South Cascade Avenue</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Colorado Springs, CO&nbsp; 80903&nbsp; USA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>phone: +1.719.785.0648</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp; FAX: +1.719.785.0644</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>email: [email-masked] </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">mailto:[email-masked]</=
A>] </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 6:10 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: [email-masked]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: [email-masked]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; J P Martin-Flatin writes:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>JP&gt; Where shall we meet?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>So far, I only have received clear responses from =
five people:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Jean-Phillipe Martin-Flatin&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
yes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Marcus =
Brunner&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; yes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Juergen =
Schoenwaelder&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; yes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bert =
Wijnen&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; maybe</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Andrea =
Westerinen&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; yes</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I would like to hear from the other folks on this =
list, especially</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>those who will be in Italy at that time. If we are =
only four people,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>we can meet almost everywhere. If we end up being =
ten or so, we need</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to figure out where we can get a nice and cheap =
meeting room.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>So please, if you are not listed above, let me know =
ASAP whether you</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>plan to attend or not. Thanks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>/js</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Juergen Schoenwaelder&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
University of Osnabrueck</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&lt;[email-masked]&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Dept. of Mathematics and Computer Science</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Phone: +49 541 969 2483&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Albrechtstr. 28, 49069 Osnabrueck, Germany</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fax:&nbsp;&nbsp; +49 541 969 2770&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;<A HREF=3D"http://www.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/</A>&gt;</FONT=
>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>!! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' =
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>!! Please do not reply to this message to =
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&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</FONT>
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Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:18:06 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
CC: Network Management Research Group <[email-masked]>
Subject: [nmrg] please post draft-irtf-nmrg-snmp-tcp-07.txt
Sender: [email-masked]

Please post the following document as an Internet Draft. It has been
produced by the network management IRTF research group.

http://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/~schoenw/draft-irtf-nmrg-snmp-tcp-07.txt

Thank you.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder      University of Osnabrueck
<[email-masked]>       Dept. of Mathematics and Computer Science
Phone: +49 541 969 2483    Albrechtstr. 28, 49069 Osnabrueck, Germany
Fax:   +49 541 969 2770    <http://www.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/>

Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:59:37 +0100
From: Marcus Brunner <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]
To: Network Management Research Group <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [nmrg] next meeting location
Sender: [email-masked]

And those of you not visited Pisa it it worth anyway :-)
Marcus

--On Monday, February 25, 2002 4:34 PM +0100 Juergen Schoenwaelder 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>
> Those who plan to attend the next NMRG meeting - would it be a problem
> for you if we move the meeting from Florence to Pisa?
>
> Luca Deri is living in Pisa and this would make the logistics a bit
> simpler.
>
> Please drop me a note.
>
> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder      University of Osnabrueck
> <[email-masked]>       Dept. of Mathematics and Computer Science
> Phone: +49 541 969 2483    Albrechtstr. 28, 49069 Osnabrueck, Germany
> Fax:   +49 541 969 2770    <http://www.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/>
>
>
> --
> !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list.
> !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or
> adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to
> <[email-masked]> !! or look at
> https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg.

--------------------------------------
Dr. Marcus Brunner
Network Laboratories
NEC Europe Ltd.

E-Mail: [email-masked]
WWW:    http://www.ccrle.nec.de/
personal home page: http://www.brubers.org/marcus

Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:34:06 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
To: Network Management Research Group <[email-masked]>
Subject: [nmrg] next meeting location
Sender: [email-masked]

Those who plan to attend the next NMRG meeting - would it be a problem
for you if we move the meeting from Florence to Pisa?

Luca Deri is living in Pisa and this would make the logistics a bit
simpler.

Please drop me a note.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder      University of Osnabrueck
<[email-masked]>       Dept. of Mathematics and Computer Science
Phone: +49 541 969 2483    Albrechtstr. 28, 49069 Osnabrueck, Germany
Fax:   +49 541 969 2770    <http://www.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/>

To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting
From: Wes Hardaker <[email-masked]>
Organization: Network Associates - NAI Labs
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:36:22 -0800
Lines: 20
Sender: [email-masked]

>>>>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:10:01 +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]> said:

Juergen> So far, I only have received clear responses from five people:

Juergen> Jean-Phillipe Martin-Flatin     yes
Juergen> Marcus Brunner                  yes
Juergen> Juergen Schoenwaelder           yes
Juergen> Bert Wijnen                     maybe
Juergen> Andrea Westerinen               yes

Juergen> I would like to hear from the other folks on this list, especially
Juergen> those who will be in Italy at that time.

If it helps your notion of clear responses, I can't make it all the
way to Italy that month.  Sorry.  "no"

-- 
Wes Hardaker
NAI Labs
Network Associates

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:32:59 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
CC: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting
Sender: [email-masked]

>>>>> David T Perkins writes:

David> [...] I believe the best use of the nmrg at NOMS would be on
David> alarming, since several experts on alarming (which are not part
David> of the nmrg) are attending the NOMS meeting, and it would be
David> quite beneficial to get their participation.

Do you plan to attend NOMS / the next NMRG meeting?

What are the experts on alarming we should invite to participate?

/js

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:30:59 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
CC: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting
Sender: [email-masked]

>>>>> Durham, David writes:

David> You might want to add to the agenda technologies for dealing
David> with DoS attacks and other management related security
David> issues. Eg. SNMP is currently undergoing a maelstrom of CERT
David> advisories and other bad press due to its troubling
David> susceptibilities. CERT is advising people to shut SNMP off!

Obviously, many implementations do not do proper bounds checking when
decoding BER messages. Surprisingly, it took almost a decade until
some folks wrote a decent test suite which makes the problem obvious.
I actually believe that this is a good think because vendors are now
busy to actually fix their code bases and so the problem will more or
less go away when people upgrade their SNMP agents.

The more interesting observation here is that although it was not a
secret that many agents are broken wrt. bounds checking, it tooks
years to actually get enough pressure to fix them (well - at least the
BER decoding). Furthermore, there are companies selling SNMP test
suites which obviously did not catch these problems, although it was
no problem for some students to figure them out.

Lets hope that vendors learn by providing the same quality control to
network management software as they do elsewhere and by giving more
boxes to students for more aggressive testing. :-)

/js

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:43:10 -0800
To: "Durham, David" <[email-masked]>, "J.P. Martin-Flatin" <[email-masked]>, IRTF Network Management Research Group <[email-masked]>
From: "David T. Perkins" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting
Sender: [email-masked]

HI,

Did you read the CERT advisory? The problems were with implementation
(the code that was written) and not with the protocol definition. 
Where the CERT advisory might need to be discussed is in the POISON
group with regards to advancement. 
The problems were "off by one" problems, and lack of code path
verification when BER encoding errors were encountered.

If we to add another topic (which I advise that we don't), then
we should talk about security based on sessions so that SNMP can
use existing security infrastructures that are being using on
network devices (such as tacacs+, radius, and ssh). Of course the
security experts believe that tacacs, radius, and ssh I are not
good enough. However, even though I have great interest in this
area (as well as in DoS), I believe the best use of the nmrg
at NOMS would be on alarming, since several experts on alarming
(which are not part of the nmrg) are attending the NOMS meeting,
and it would be quite beneficial to get their participation. 

At 11:08 AM 2/19/2002 -0800, Durham, David wrote:
>You might want to add to the agenda technologies for dealing with DoS
>attacks and other management related security issues. Eg. SNMP is currently
>undergoing a maelstrom of CERT advisories and other bad press due to its
>troubling susceptibilities. CERT is advising people to shut SNMP off!
>-Dave
>
>http://www.internetwk.com/story/INW20020213S0002
>-- 
>!! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list.
>!! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust
>!! your settings, send a mail message to <[email-masked]>
>!! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. 

Regards,
/david t. perkins

From: "Durham, David" <[email-masked]>
To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" <[email-masked]>, IRTF Network Management Research Group <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:08:42 -0800
Sender: [email-masked]

You might want to add to the agenda technologies for dealing with DoS
attacks and other management related security issues. Eg. SNMP is currently
undergoing a maelstrom of CERT advisories and other bad press due to its
troubling susceptibilities. CERT is advising people to shut SNMP off!
-Dave

http://www.internetwk.com/story/INW20020213S0002

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:10:01 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
CC: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting
Sender: [email-masked]

>>>>> J P Martin-Flatin writes:

JP> Where shall we meet?

So far, I only have received clear responses from five people:

Jean-Phillipe Martin-Flatin     yes
Marcus Brunner                  yes
Juergen Schoenwaelder           yes
Bert Wijnen                     maybe
Andrea Westerinen               yes

I would like to hear from the other folks on this list, especially
those who will be in Italy at that time. If we are only four people,
we can meet almost everywhere. If we end up being ten or so, we need
to figure out where we can get a nice and cheap meeting room.

So please, if you are not listed above, let me know ASAP whether you
plan to attend or not. Thanks,

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder      University of Osnabrueck
<[email-masked]>       Dept. of Mathematics and Computer Science
Phone: +49 541 969 2483    Albrechtstr. 28, 49069 Osnabrueck, Germany
Fax:   +49 541 969 2770    <http://www.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/>

Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:13:34 +0100
From: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" <[email-masked]>
To: IRTF Network Management Research Group <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting
Sender: [email-masked]

To keep the discussion focused, I suggest we dedicate Friday and Saturday 
morning to one of Dave's topics, and Saturday afternoon to Juergen's topic. 
I'll talk about UIMs on another occasion.

Both of Dave's proposals are of interest to me. Do you have a preference?

Where shall we meet?

JP

Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:

> Regarding topics, I have seen the following proposals:
> 
> Dave Perkins: alarms & alarm management
> Dave Perkins: convergence of entity mib model and M.3100 models
> Jean-Philippe: update on universal information modeling
> 
> I would like to add another topic:
> 
>      Why is network management different?

Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:24:08 +0100
From: Marcus Brunner <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]
To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" <[email-masked]>, IRTF Network Management Research Group <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting
Sender: [email-masked]

Fine with me.
Marcus

--On Donnerstag, 14. Februar 2002 11:56 +0100 "J.P. Martin-Flatin" 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I suggest we organize the 10th NMRG meeting on April 19-20, right after
> NOMS. During our mid-January discussion, we agreed that we needed two
> days to discuss the issues raised by David Perkins. On Mon 15, there are
> tutorials during the whole day. The IM 2003 TPC meeting will take most of
> Mon 15 afternoon and several of us will attend it, so we must avoid this
> time. Personally, I can't make it the week-end before NOMS, but I am free
> after NOMS. On Fri 19, only the morning is taken by tutorials for those
> who are interested. So, I think the best dates are 19-20.
>
> Are you happy with these dates? Please answer soon: I need to confirm my
> airfares ASAP because there are very few flights to Florence from here.
>
> Thanks
> JP
>
> --
> !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list.
> !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or
> adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to
> <[email-masked]> !! or look at
> https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg.
>

--------------------------------------
Dr. Marcus Brunner
Network Laboratories
NEC Europe Ltd.

E-Mail: [email-masked]
WWW:    http://www.ccrle.nec.de/
personal home page: http://www.brubers.org/marcus

From: "Andrea Westerinen" <[email-masked]>
To: "David T. Perkins" <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [nmrg] Thoughts about configuration...
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:42:17 -0800
Importance: Normal
Sender: [email-masked]

David, Another aspect to this is policy.  You may want to distinguish some
of the referential integrity issues as "alertable problems" and others as
"informational notification" or "no notification."

The approach that CIM takes is to define a group and membership (via
associations) separate from the collected objects.  This is your "down
reference" scenario - however, your framework can enforce cleanup if the
group goes away (ie, all its associations go away).

And, having a concept of "preprovisioning" in your mgmt framework also
mitigates these problems.

Andrea

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of David T. Perkins
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:20 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [nmrg] Thoughts about configuration...

HI,

In some present work, I've noticed two major patterns in defining
configuration info and wanted to present them to get some feedback.

At the high level, the very simple configuration question is
"how do you specify group membership"?

There are many examples in configuration of network devices where
one "creates a group", and then "adds" or "deletes" members. I've
run across two approaches.

1) members are specified as a property of the group. (lets say that
   the group has "down pointers" (or "down references") to members)
2) candidates for group membership specify as one of their properties
   the name of the group that they are a member. (lets say that
   that the member has an "up pointer" (or "up references") to the
   group)

Now the fun stuff.
The next concern is "referential integrity", that is, can a reference
be made to a non-existing member or group? This becomes complicated
when a network system allows "hot removal and insertion", and
"pre-provisioning". For example, consider a device that functions
as a bridge that allows VLANs to be created. A VLAN is configured
to contain ports. Network traffic is bridged between ports in a
VLAN, but not to other ports on the device. Now say port 9 is configured
as a member of VLAN c1. What happens when the network interface card
containing port 9 is removed? If after removal, the system is rebooted,
does this change anything? If after removal, a different type of
network interface card is inserted? Does this change the situation?
If a port can be a member of only a single VLAN (which in this
simple example, must be the case, but when using 802.1q, this is
not required), what happens when down pointers are used and
a port is configured as a member of multiple VLANs?

There are examples of commercial products that use down pointers
and ones that use up pointers. Also, there are examples of commercial
products that have referential integrity checking, and ones that
don't. Also, note that when up pointers are used, status displays
of the group show the current members. And when down pointers are
used, status displays (sometimes, but not always) of a candidate
show group membership.

What are the implementation and usability tradeoffs with up vs
down pointers, and with using or not using referential integrity
enforcement?

Having this researched as described will help designers of
configuration interfaces (CLI, MIB, etc).

Reactions?

Regards,
/david t. perkins

--
!! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list.
!! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or
adjust
!! your settings, send a mail message to <[email-masked]>
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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:29:46 -0800
To: [email-masked]
From: "David T. Perkins" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [nmrg] Questions about management
Sender: [email-masked]

HI,

On the question...

Juergen asked...
>     Why is network management different?
>
>I am asking myself again and again why there are so many special
>purpose technologies in the network management world and why there is
>so little reuse/adaptation of general purpose technologies and
>methodologies. Part of this discussion is probably an attempt to
>answer the question what kind of management technologies will (still?)
>be needed in 5-10 years from now. What of what we have now has the
>potential to survive, to evolve, and what is missing. Are there any
>radically new approaches out there they might impact things?

I've posed similar, but different questions, which might overlap
with yours.

Such as:
1) Q: Why is it difficult to define what needs to be managed?
   A: There are seemingly a very large number of ways to model
      a managed resource. Each resource has a potentially large
      number of attributes and actions that be associated with it.
      However, only after usage (operational experience) can one
      figure out the essential model, attributes, and actions.
      Also, only after the resource is incorporated into different
      devices and deployed in different environments can a
      standards writer develop a model that is easy to understand
      and supports management of the resource.
2) Q: Why is it difficult to create a management application (and/or
      platform)?
   A: Because there are multiple "customers" with different requirements.
      a) First "customer" is the audience of presentations where the
         management software is being used to show off the features
         of the managed device. The management software needs to be
         visually oriented (and possibly have sound), and be educational
         and somewhat entertaining. No need for scaling, just need
         to support a few devices. (Or sometimes for platforms, need
         to support a larger number of devices, but only a few attributes.)
         Don't really need to be able to do useful management.
      b) Second "customer" is the device evaluators in a "lab". They
         want the management app to help them set up one (or maybe
         a small number of devices) so that they can try out the device.
         Want "wizards" to help with configuration and basic trouble
         shooting. Don't need to be able to set all configuration
         attributes.
      c) Third "customer" is operators for a limited usage trial. They
         want the management app to help them set up the one (or more
         devices) and monitor the status of the device. Maybe keep some
         basic statistics. Possibly need some help in automation of
         configuration changes (this depends on what service the
         device performs). In general, it is OK to be somewhat dependent
         on human interaction for config changes, and monitoring of
         operation.
      d) Fourth "customer" is the operators of the device in a large
         scale deployment. They want the device to integrate with
         existing automation. The more that can be automated, the better.
         The management application for the device generally have no
         display (them self) because they are feeding "higher level"
         applications that have a display. Need attributes that
         help in capacity planning, and ones that help in predicting
         device or component failure. Device security is important.

3) Q: Who are the engineers that implement management in a device?
   A: Generally, at an organization where the technology is "leading
      edge", the technology is much more important than the management
      of the device. The result is that the best and brightest engineers
      are working on the technology, and not the management. The
      "management engineers" are generally the least experienced
      members of the team and socially rank just above the "test
      engineers". Note that to "apply management" for a device,
      the "management engineer" must become an expert in each of
      the technologies being used in the device. This is hard.

Comments?

Regards,
/david t. perkins

Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:35:03 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
CC: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting
Sender: [email-masked]

>>>>> J P Martin-Flatin writes:

J> I suggest we organize the 10th NMRG meeting on April 19-20, right
J> after NOMS. 

This proposal is fine with me.

So please, can people on this list please send a note whether they
plan to attend so that I can try to figure out the logistics we
need?

Regarding topics, I have seen the following proposals:

Dave Perkins:	alarms & alarm management
Dave Perkins:	convergence of entity mib model and M.3100 models
Jean-Philippe:	update on universal information modeling

I would like to add another topic:

     Why is network management different?

I am asking myself again and again why there are so many special
purpose technologies in the network management world and why there is
so little reuse/adaptation of general purpose technologies and
methodologies. Part of this discussion is probably an attempt to
answer the question what kind of management technologies will (still?)
be needed in 5-10 years from now. What of what we have now has the
potential to survive, to evolve, and what is missing. Are there any
radically new approaches out there they might impact things?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder      University of Osnabrueck
<[email-masked]>       Dept. of Mathematics and Computer Science
Phone: +49 541 969 2483    Albrechtstr. 28, 49069 Osnabrueck, Germany
Fax:   +49 541 969 2770    <http://www.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/>

Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:56:01 +0100
From: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" <[email-masked]>
To: IRTF Network Management Research Group <[email-masked]>
Subject: [nmrg] 10th NMRG meeting
Sender: [email-masked]

Hi,

I suggest we organize the 10th NMRG meeting on April 19-20, right after 
NOMS. During our mid-January discussion, we agreed that we needed two days 
to discuss the issues raised by David Perkins. On Mon 15, there are 
tutorials during the whole day. The IM 2003 TPC meeting will take most of 
Mon 15 afternoon and several of us will attend it, so we must avoid this 
time. Personally, I can't make it the week-end before NOMS, but I am free 
after NOMS. On Fri 19, only the morning is taken by tutorials for those who 
are interested. So, I think the best dates are 19-20.

Are you happy with these dates? Please answer soon: I need to confirm my 
airfares ASAP because there are very few flights to Florence from here.

Thanks
JP

Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:19:34 -0800
To: [email-masked]
From: "David T. Perkins" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [nmrg] Thoughts about configuration...
Sender: [email-masked]

HI,

In some present work, I've noticed two major patterns in defining
configuration info and wanted to present them to get some feedback.

At the high level, the very simple configuration question is
"how do you specify group membership"?

There are many examples in configuration of network devices where
one "creates a group", and then "adds" or "deletes" members. I've
run across two approaches.

1) members are specified as a property of the group. (lets say that
   the group has "down pointers" (or "down references") to members)
2) candidates for group membership specify as one of their properties
   the name of the group that they are a member. (lets say that
   that the member has an "up pointer" (or "up references") to the
   group)

Now the fun stuff. 
The next concern is "referential integrity", that is, can a reference
be made to a non-existing member or group? This becomes complicated
when a network system allows "hot removal and insertion", and 
"pre-provisioning". For example, consider a device that functions
as a bridge that allows VLANs to be created. A VLAN is configured
to contain ports. Network traffic is bridged between ports in a
VLAN, but not to other ports on the device. Now say port 9 is configured
as a member of VLAN c1. What happens when the network interface card
containing port 9 is removed? If after removal, the system is rebooted,
does this change anything? If after removal, a different type of
network interface card is inserted? Does this change the situation?
If a port can be a member of only a single VLAN (which in this
simple example, must be the case, but when using 802.1q, this is
not required), what happens when down pointers are used and
a port is configured as a member of multiple VLANs?

There are examples of commercial products that use down pointers
and ones that use up pointers. Also, there are examples of commercial
products that have referential integrity checking, and ones that
don't. Also, note that when up pointers are used, status displays
of the group show the current members. And when down pointers are
used, status displays (sometimes, but not always) of a candidate
show group membership.

What are the implementation and usability tradeoffs with up vs
down pointers, and with using or not using referential integrity
enforcement?

Having this researched as described will help designers of
configuration interfaces (CLI, MIB, etc).

Reactions?

Regards,
/david t. perkins