Subject: [nmrg] meeting notes
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
To: Network Management Research Group <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:59:36 +0100
List-Id: Network Management Research Group <nmrg.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de>

Below are my meeting notes from the weekend.

/js

* 12th NMRG meeting (Colorado Springs)

  Hosted by Intelliden with great support from John Strassner

  Attendees:

  - Olivier Festor		Sa
  - David Harrington		Sa
  - James Hong
  - Torsten Klie		Sa
  - Emmanuel Nataf		Sa
  - George Pavlou
  - David Perkins		Sa
  - Aiko Pras			Sa
  - Phil Shafer			Sa
  - Jürgen Schönwälder		Sa
  - Frank Strauß		Sa
  - John Strassner		Sa
  - Bert Wijnen

* Agenda

  Saturday (2003-03-22) (13:00 - 17:00)

  + Welcome
  + Select note takers and minute producers
  + Status reports
    - Recent achievements
    - 11th meeting minutes
    - OID compression paper
    - ITU SG 4 input on SNMP over TCP
  + Latest IETF news (new/closed WGs, rumors and mysteries)
  + SMIng status report (F. Strauß, J. Schönwälder)
  + SMI -> XSD translation and gateway (T. Klie, F. Strauß)
  + Plans for dinner ;-)

  Sunday (2003-03-23) (09:00-12:00, 13:00-17:00)

  + Short summary of the Saturday meeting
  + Bert's input and comment on the latest IETF news
  + SMI -> XSD wrap up discussion
  + Technical XMLCONF discussion (Phil)
  + Wrap up and action items
  + Plans for dinner ;-)

  Tuesday (2003-03-25) (17:00-18:30)

  - IAB research funding document feedback
  - Restructuring and refocussing the NMRG

* Note takers and minute producer

  - Dave Harrington, John and Jürgen take notes, John volunteers to
    produce minutes out of the notes.

* Recent achievements

  - RFC 3440: On the Difference between Information Models and Data
    Models, January 2003
  - RFC 3430: Simple Network Management Protocol Over Transmission
    Control Protocol Transport Mapping, December 2002

* Latest IETF news

  - SMIng and EOS working groups will be shut down
  - SNMP is going into maintenance mode, two potential ways to handle
    this: (a) working group to do maintenance with one task at a time
    (b) OPS area design team to do maintenance
  - PIBs will not be allowed on the standards track, further PIB work
    is discouraged
  - Readable MIBs still required from WGs, writeable MIBs are possible
    put not required (different interpretations of statements in various
    places have been observed about the precise interpretation of the
    last part of the statement)
  - XML configuration mgmt working group will likely be started
  - Operators should co-chair OPS working groups, at least a potential
    XML configuration mgmt working group
  - Wes thinks that SNMP fixes/evolution are still needed, even if XML
    might take over in the future
  - SNMPv3 might benefit from a session based security model in order
    to integrate better with established authentication mechanisms
  - Dave has more notes about the OPS area meeting...

* SMIng discussion

  - Olivier and Emmanuel developed a proxy agent which implements
    SMIng objects for usage by management applications that only
    operate on SMIng objects.
  - With SNMP, you can easily turn SNMP instance data into a set
    of SMIng objects.
  - Might be possible to get the SMIng updates into the implementation.
  - No follow on projects from industries might imply not much further
    work on this.
  - Dave Perkins asks how much semantic checking is being done.
  - Dave Perkins asks whether there is a list of ambiguities.
  - Would be good to have the INRIA implementation consistent with
    the final SMIng documents. It is unlikely that libsmi will be
    upgraded to support the final SMIng document any time soon.
  - The INRIA implementation uses Java CC.
  - Action items:
    a) Emmanuel will talk to Frank to get comments integrated into the
       current documents
    b) Frank will contact COPS-PR mapping authors to see how we can
       update this document

* SMI XSD translation and gateway

  - Torsten initiates discussion with his IM presentation
  - The "proprietary database of SNMP data" phrase on slide 4 causes
    some lively discussion.
  - Slides will be made available on the NMRG web site (action item
    for Torsten and Frank)
  - Dave Harrington asks whether storing communities in the XML is
    not a security issue.
  - Dave Perkins asks what is being done about different versions of
    MIB modules.
  - The SMIv2 allows to change names of named numbers which means the
    value representation might legally change between different MIB
    module revisions.
  - There are corner cases of OCTET STRING display hints which are not
    reversible. (Jürgen might be able to find an example in his mailing
    list archives.)
  - Some information is lost in the translation (descriptors of 
    intermediate node, OID identities and constants).
  - Dave Perkins asked whether it was considered to more index values
    into an index element rather than using XML attributes.
  - Dave Perkins says that the xpath example misses namespaces and looks
    nicer than it would be if it were spelled out.
  - Aiko asks whether the xpath filter interpreter really belongs into
    the gateway or not better into the management application using the
    gateway.
  - Dave Perkins says that data might be stored in the gateway and updated
    regularily by a poller so that time domain queries are possible.
  - Both Daves think more future work is needed.
  - Bert asks what Frank's experiences are with writing XML Schema 
    definitions. 

* XMLCONF discussion

  - Phil starts with giving a presentation about XMLCONF.
  - Juniper has 1.5 customers that operate like the "ideal world"
    model where the authoritative information is kept in a central
    database and all changes have to be made in the central database
    to be pushed to the devices.
  - Dave Perkins: XMLCONF is very different because there is an
    explicit asynchronous notification channel which is bound to
    a session. Additional channels might be added to support
    distribution of binary software images or for retrieval of
    statistics.
  - George says that XMLCONF could be improved by looking more
    at existing management protocols.
  - Dave Perkins explains on the white board why getting access to
    SNMP notifications is hard for management application writers.
  - Olivier asks whether there is a mechanism to subscribe to certain
    sets of notifications. Currently, XMLCONF does not have this 
    capability.
  - Jürgen makes a statement that design decisions seem to be made
    out of feelings rather than being based on hard facts. For example,
    is BEEP as a transport a good viable choice? Is the home grown 
    RPC layer really better than any of the existing layers?
  - A lengthy discussion about SOAP vs. XMLCONF RPC and BEEP vs. 
    SSH/TLS and the various implications on the manager/agent side.

* Action items

  a) Emmanuel will talk to Frank to get comments integrated into the
     revised SMIng documents
  b) Frank will contact COPS-PR mapping authors to see how we can
     update this document
  c) Torsten's und Frank's slides will be made available on the NMRG 
     web site
  d) Aiko will finish the minutes of the last NMRG meeting this week!
  e) Dave Perkins will explain what a common model for booting is
     before the IM 2003 NMRG meeting and try to document things in
     written words
  f) Phil to send his slides to the NMRG
  g) Documentation of compression etc. work (Aiko, Juergen)
  h) John Strassner to produce final minutes from the notes taken by
     the note takers

* Possible future NMRG items

  1 Work on the network management vision that some people think is missing
  2 Develop a session based security mechanism that integrates with AAA
  3 Common model for booting
  4 Investigate XMLCONF design decisions and their implications 
    (such as protocol mappings / RPC mechanisms)
  5 Map XMLCONF onto SOAP and prove that it does work (or does not work)
  6 Experiment with Web Services for management (IF-MIB done as Web
    Services, Web Services toolkits, ...)
  7 Compare efforts to implement certain functionalities with Web
    Services and traditional technologies
  8 How to manage IPv6 networks
  9 Management of upcoming technologies
 10 Disappearing management and increased dependability
 11 Cooperative management rather than hierarchical management

Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 11:38:16 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
To: Network Management Research Group <[email-masked]>
Subject: [nmrg] upcoming meeting information
Sender: [email-masked]

I have updated the web page for the upcoming meeting at 

	http://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/projects/nmrg/meetings/2003/colorado/

and I suggest that you take a look at it and contact me if there is
something missing or incorrect. Some additional remarks:

(1) I plan to work with Frank on the SMIng documents next week in
    order to revise them so that they get close to a publishable
    status. If we are successful, we will add the result to the
    reading list.

(2) I like to spend some time on the IAB research funding document
    since it is in our very own interest to provide feedback. So
    please read this document before the meeting and do not be shy to
    use this mailing list if you have comments. ;-)

(3) I would like to discuss some administrative things about how we
    run the NMRG. For example, I propose to open up the mailing list
    since the current setup creates administrative overhead and some
    repeated confusion. If you have other ideas related to how the
    NMRG operates, raise them either on this list before the meeting
    or be prepared to present them in Colorado Springs.

(4) Note that I have planned quite some time for the discussion of the
    xmlconf aka netconf proposal. I think we should delve into the
    details of this proposal, trying to understand (and challenge
    where appropriate) the design decisions. Of course, this requires
    to read the specification before the meeting.

I am looking forward to seeing you in Colorado Springs in a hopefully
peaceful world.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder    <http://www.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/schoenw/>

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:21:00 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
CC: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: FW: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details
Sender: [email-masked]

>>>>> John Strassner writes:

John> Could everyone that plans on attending the NMRG meeting please
John> respond (privately, one would hope ;-) ) to me so that I can
John> arrange for access to the building, etc.?

The list of people on the meeting web page at

    http://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/projects/nmrg/meetings/2003/colorado/

should be fairly complete. (If not folks, let me know.)

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder    <http://www.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/schoenw/>

From: John Strassner <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: FW: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details 
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:57:39 -0700 
Sender: [email-masked]

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Could everyone that plans on attending the NMRG meeting please respond
(privately, one would hope ;-) ) to me so that I can arrange for access to
the building, etc.?

regards,
John
 
John Strassner
Chief Strategy Officer
Intelliden Corporation
90 South Cascade Avenue
Colorado Springs, CO  80903  USA
phone: +1.719.785.0648
  FAX: +1.719.785.0644
email: [email-masked] 

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Shafer [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 6:58 AM
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details 

Juergen Schoenwaelder writes:
>I definately do not plan to continue after 6pm but concensus might 
>develop to stop even earlier. Does this help?

I found a red-eye flying back, so quitting time doesn't matter so much. See
you there.....

Thanks,
 Phil
-- 
!! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. !! Please do
not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust !! your
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<TITLE>FW: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details </TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Could everyone that plans on attending the NMRG =
meeting please respond (privately, one would hope ;-) ) to me so that I =
can arrange for access to the building, etc.?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>John</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>John Strassner</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Chief Strategy Officer</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Intelliden Corporation</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>90 South Cascade Avenue</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Colorado Springs, CO&nbsp; 80903&nbsp; USA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>phone: +1.719.785.0648</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp; FAX: +1.719.785.0644</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>email: [email-masked] </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Phil Shafer [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">mailto:[email-masked]</A>] </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 6:58 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Juergen Schoenwaelder</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: [email-masked]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details =
</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Juergen Schoenwaelder writes:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;I definately do not plan to continue after 6pm =
but concensus might </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;develop to stop even earlier. Does this =
help?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I found a red-eye flying back, so quitting time =
doesn't matter so much. See you there.....</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;Phil</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>!! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' =
mailing list. !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To =
unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to =
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HREF=3D"https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg" =
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To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details 
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 08:58:22 -0500
From: Phil Shafer <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]

Juergen Schoenwaelder writes:
>I definately do not plan to continue after 6pm but concensus might
>develop to stop even earlier. Does this help?

I found a red-eye flying back, so quitting time doesn't matter so
much. See you there.....

Thanks,
 Phil

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:02:03 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
CC: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details
Sender: [email-masked]

>>>>> Phil Shafer writes:

Phil> I'm plannning on attended, 

Great news.

Phil> but have one question. How late will the meeting run on the
Phil> 23rd? I'm trying to figure out flights back home.

I definately do not plan to continue after 6pm but concensus might
develop to stop even earlier. Does this help?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder    <http://www.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/schoenw/>