From nobody Mon Sep 20 02:58:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B6D3A1CC4 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 02:58:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kuix.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 87SdnPHB1ETW for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 02:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cloud.kuix.de (cloud.kuix.de [IPv6:2001:8d8:1801:86::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEFBF3A19CF for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 02:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.137.0.17] (tmo-081-219.customers.d1-online.com [80.187.81.219]) by cloud.kuix.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 616FF191D04 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 09:57:55 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kuix.de; s=2018; t=1632131875; bh=JQQndTvDzZaBKte0PbJclna3K8s4MHiK/CnDflRLKO8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=Xa/c8dQ9uxMMrjTnLFECvKY69mfwU5ZrCkWV8mB2dzLwS5RVpVb5GFpTl0fDV7ock yBtHUbQZFzEWsN8Fcuq4xEivEFtWRhHnvESdaaoLlSyG5GywJwyFbdVShd5ydxy7FF cuLTXb16fLWD9ejtxImlUs323AO9DDO7eeSVYmpKK8ySAH7VzfOurpzGkAMILeUtmn mhhuNiqYGIuTZjSJvBWSs58FAu0TDWISFe3wUrhcW0N1IBzOFtQEf1gMdBdofjq16D zbTbbOYn6AYY1NNbHm4qh0e+uLaTsTNDQ161bsB4IyBKvLaOmqFMJWcNbEb8Lm5V93 PPJtNQPikmRFA== Message-ID: <4e17aa02-e78c-3d48-8a68-7342996ddedd@kuix.de> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 11:57:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/91.0 Thunderbird/91.1.1 To: openpgp@ietf.org Content-Language: en-US From: Kai Engert Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] PGP/MIME, RFC 3156, Require empty boundary preamble lines X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 09:58:06 -0000 Hello, is this list an appropriate place to discuss PGP/MIME topics? Please see the following example message: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1690603#c16 There is one line marked with "---> preamble line inside signed content". Thunderbird 78 had added a non-empty preamble line, which was removed by a mail transport agent, causing the signature verification to fail. Perhaps a future revision of RFC 3156 could state that preamble lines inside the signed payload MUST be empty - in the hope that no transport agent will add their own preamble lines. (TB 91 contains a coincidental change that produces empty preamble lines, I haven't yet investigated what had caused this, but it likely has the side effect to fix the reported scenario.) I don't know if there are any transport agents that ADD preamble lines - hopefully there aren't. Regards Kai From nobody Mon Sep 20 07:10:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C714C3A1174 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 07:10:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7JSN3XJUamLz for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 07:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CD633A1175 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 07:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fews1.riseup.net (fews1-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "fews1.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4HCmfS5pngzF3QV for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 07:10:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: E153F55A538F07BB17B0162A01E3C7CC6F06075833929E33010E524C831B6001 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HCmfS2nfTz5vY8 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 07:10:08 -0700 (PDT) To: openpgp@ietf.org From: Paul Schaub Jabber-Id: vanitasvitae@mercury-im.org Message-ID: <7fd6ba0c-bbfd-80b6-2a97-1e77fc9d2a52@fsfe.org> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 16:10:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------3D97D4C938FED0EF8DA6EE41" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] Subkeys of Subkeys X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:10:14 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3D97D4C938FED0EF8DA6EE41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey! RFC 4880 states, that subkeys need to have a signature by the "top level" certification key (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc4880#section-5.2.1, subkey binding signature): > This signature is a statement by the top-level signing key that > indicates that it owns the subkey. Now I would like to know, whether this rules out the possibility that a subkey itself may have a subkey. Allowing for such constructions would be interesting for per-device keys in multi-device settings: An Account Key Alpha owns two Device subkeys A and B, which in turn own encryption and signing subkeys aE,aS and bE,bS. Revocation and Expiration could work as usual (revocations/expirations on higher level keys affect lower-level keys, not the other way round). I see no obvious issues which might prevent this, apart from the ambiguous definition quoted above. Has anyone already experimented with such constructions? If so, did you encounter any issues which would need to be taken into consideration? Paul --------------3D97D4C938FED0EF8DA6EE41 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hey!

RFC 4880 states, that subkeys need to have a signature by the "top level" certification key (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc4880#section-5.2.1, subkey binding signature):

       This signature is a statement by the top-level signing key that
       indicates that it owns the subkey.
Now I would like to know, whether this rules out the possibility that a subkey itself may have a subkey. Allowing for such constructions would be interesting for per-device keys in multi-device settings:

An Account Key Alpha owns two Device subkeys A and B, which in turn own encryption and signing subkeys aE,aS and bE,bS.

Revocation and Expiration could work as usual (revocations/expirations on higher level keys affect lower-level keys, not the other way round).

I see no obvious issues which might prevent this, apart from the ambiguous definition quoted above.
Has anyone already experimented with such constructions? If so, did you encounter any issues which would need to be taken into consideration?

Paul

--------------3D97D4C938FED0EF8DA6EE41-- From nobody Mon Sep 20 08:00:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E063A136F for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:00:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gnupg.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PiW4rMzmxWz3 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kerckhoffs.g10code.com (kerckhoffs.g10code.com [IPv6:2001:aa8:fff1:100::22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C177D3A1364 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:00:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnupg.org; s=20181017; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=HACoZO0U3e3/uzOpo21cNQP6/2hc0uTdRlv1x16xQqs=; b=Jv+E3otbaxsm/brkRk87KTToxb vmqDtq/yOvWlR0yXjCSQ+uUgKIxyIBfWmPXvsuedJiBeAYZPMBD8OryJQ5ZUzO2huB5tOTg3oOUnS XD/mg7VsQy1m7scBEvCsHa9wkZxDgPFY7xYGC0u7ijTGHnl3c3c0otJrrPA9FP9bkew0=; Received: from uucp by kerckhoffs.g10code.com with local-rmail (Exim 4.89 #1 (Debian)) id 1mSKm8-0000Kz-F7 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 17:00:08 +0200 Received: from wk by wheatstone.g10code.de with local (Exim 4.92 #5 (Debian)) id 1mSKji-0005sQ-WA; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 16:57:39 +0200 From: Werner Koch To: Kai Engert Cc: openpgp@ietf.org References: <4e17aa02-e78c-3d48-8a68-7342996ddedd@kuix.de> X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. Jabber-ID: wk@jabber.gnupg.org Mail-Followup-To: Kai Engert , openpgp@ietf.org Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 16:57:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4e17aa02-e78c-3d48-8a68-7342996ddedd@kuix.de> (Kai Engert's message of "Mon, 20 Sep 2021 11:57:53 +0200") Message-ID: <875yuvcn1f.fsf@wheatstone.g10code.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=New_World_Order_E.T._Cypherpunks_CCS_CUD_AIEWS_Rand_Corporation=Shoo"; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] PGP/MIME, RFC 3156, Require empty boundary preamble lines X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 15:00:22 -0000 --=New_World_Order_E.T._Cypherpunks_CCS_CUD_AIEWS_Rand_Corporation=Shoo Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 11:57, Kai Engert said: > is this list an appropriate place to discuss PGP/MIME topics? Sure. > Thunderbird 78 had added a non-empty preamble line, which was removed > by a mail transport agent, causing the signature verification to fail. Welcome to the party. Unfortunately there are many mail processing services which don't care about the MIME standard and willy-nilly modify messages or MIME header at any encapsulation level. I have seen changed content-encoding, new MIME header lines, or changed boundaries. It is quite common that signatures break as soon as they pass though some very helpful tools which have been sold to companies to "secure" their communication. To be fair; things are better than 10 years ago and most signed mail check out nicely (unless they got filtered out as spam as a few corporate mail gateways do). > Perhaps a future revision of RFC 3156 could state that preamble lines > inside the signed payload MUST be empty - in the hope that no I dont think that this is a good idea. First it is not an PGP/MIME but a general MIME issue, and second it solves only one of the problems with broken mail processing software. Shalom-Salam, Werner =2D-=20 Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. --=New_World_Order_E.T._Cypherpunks_CCS_CUD_AIEWS_Rand_Corporation=Shoo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQSHd0YfKgdOvEgNNZQZzByeCFsQegUCYUihXAAKCRAZzByeCFsQ et03AQCQbGnjhSI8MyeKeMYA8KdJ3mgn+B95CAQFXN6OjPP9/AEAoEXyFRzJqq5a GRJH5RrQAuH3GDbab0h9HMRAv7m3HAU= =wCg8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=New_World_Order_E.T._Cypherpunks_CCS_CUD_AIEWS_Rand_Corporation=Shoo-- From nobody Tue Sep 21 04:35:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A635F3A05DE for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:35:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YJKFplP-C66F for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harrington.uberspace.de (harrington.uberspace.de [185.26.156.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAE173A0809 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15248 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2021 11:35:02 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by harrington.uberspace.de with SMTP; 21 Sep 2021 11:35:02 -0000 From: Justus Winter To: Paul Schaub , openpgp@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <7fd6ba0c-bbfd-80b6-2a97-1e77fc9d2a52@fsfe.org> References: <7fd6ba0c-bbfd-80b6-2a97-1e77fc9d2a52@fsfe.org> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:35:00 +0200 Message-ID: <87mto617rv.fsf@europ.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Subkeys of Subkeys X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:35:21 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Hi Paul :) Paul Schaub writes: > Allowing for such constructions would be interesting for per-device > keys in multi-device settings: Yes, we'd like to improve multi-device support using per-device keys as well. > I see no obvious issues which might prevent this, apart from the > ambiguous definition quoted above. > Has anyone already experimented with such constructions? If so, did you > encounter any issues which would need to be taken into consideration? We considered it, and I talk (see [0] and [1]) about that in the context of bringing forward-secrecy to OpenPGP (see also [2] if you are into that). We have also constructed a test vector [3], but unsurprisingly, no implementation supports that [4]. 0: https://sequoia-pgp.org/talks/2018-08-moving-forward/moving-forward.pdf 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an6oYjikAPY 2: https://gitlab.com/sequoia-pgp/openpgp-dr/-/tree/wip-openpgp 3: https://gitlab.com/sequoia-pgp/weird-keys#cert-subkeyspgp 4: https://gitlab.com/sequoia-pgp/weird-keys#results Justus --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQFLBAEBCgA1FiEEJWpOVeSnLZetJGjniNx+MzhfeR0FAmFJw2QXHGp1c3R1c0Bz ZXF1b2lhLXBncC5vcmcACgkQiNx+MzhfeR10lAf9HoxgM71rNZZh45OLydihzBDg urHWlsYavo6VIPdDAk7fGmvfz/smPRSq2SoJXHT7vVGpCdtrvjhe3DOtbgLR5hH2 XdQyopVFkuDUTBvIL+kc47f5NYvBUEmxgDn4oCY7xzKZ+yQ+v9EmEGt8mOILwFLI u2OuT4zNjJJj6fuX0aCHXLP1WuR7LcP/2Vj7RBTRh/EKhNXDPSJWORkQY/uS9RdF +cYgrpgMOdEhLQR2zjETNxMW4MC4TU86fxWKXtcjsl6l2t2WePRmkQ+t0Phif13V BNqaDV0qnQ1QZnEqvjPMsG2vCrSnp8Nqj/mMjFS1wCpmooU78pTnatRKLmtrgg== =32rY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Sep 21 04:51:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96DD33A094D for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:51:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.232 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.232 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pk2xeKCsXxQe for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE0183A0949 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fews1.riseup.net (fews1-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "fews1.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4HDKXF3W84zDqh4; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:51:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: C467CAF872BD1CCDBCC1B55E3BDD4C86F95F73BE2CDBCF102A474D303ED6EB55 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HDKXD678Jz5vkC; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:51:40 -0700 (PDT) To: Justus Winter , openpgp@ietf.org References: <7fd6ba0c-bbfd-80b6-2a97-1e77fc9d2a52@fsfe.org> <87mto617rv.fsf@europ.lan> From: Paul Schaub Jabber-Id: vanitasvitae@mercury-im.org Message-ID: <938c9ca6-039d-c3f1-86a9-0f056f3d66c4@fsfe.org> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:51:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87mto617rv.fsf@europ.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] Subkeys of Subkeys X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:48 -0000 Hey Justus, That test vector looks exactly like I would imagine it. It's a bummer that there is no support in applications though. My library is able to generate keys in this form (with some trickery) but cannot yet handle them correctly. What must happen so that a future revision of the specification explicitly allows this behavior? Would it make sense to specify this usecase explicitly? Paul Am 21.09.21 um 13:35 schrieb Justus Winter: > Hi Paul :) > > Paul Schaub writes: > >> Allowing for such constructions would be interesting for per-device >> keys in multi-device settings: > Yes, we'd like to improve multi-device support using per-device keys as= > well. > >> I see no obvious issues which might prevent this, apart from the >> ambiguous definition quoted above. >> Has anyone already experimented with such constructions? If so, did yo= u >> encounter any issues which would need to be taken into consideration? > We considered it, and I talk (see [0] and [1]) about that in the contex= t > of bringing forward-secrecy to OpenPGP (see also [2] if you are into > that). We have also constructed a test vector [3], but unsurprisingly,= > no implementation supports that [4]. > > 0: https://sequoia-pgp.org/talks/2018-08-moving-forward/moving-forward.= pdf > 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dan6oYjikAPY > 2: https://gitlab.com/sequoia-pgp/openpgp-dr/-/tree/wip-openpgp > 3: https://gitlab.com/sequoia-pgp/weird-keys#cert-subkeyspgp > 4: https://gitlab.com/sequoia-pgp/weird-keys#results > > Justus From nobody Wed Sep 22 19:04:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD533A15CB for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 19:04:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:03:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor To: Kai Engert , openpgp@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4e17aa02-e78c-3d48-8a68-7342996ddedd@kuix.de> References: <4e17aa02-e78c-3d48-8a68-7342996ddedd@kuix.de> Autocrypt: addr=dkg@fifthhorseman.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEX+i03xYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdACA4xvL/xI5dHedcnkfViyq84doe8zFRid9jW7CC9XBiI0QQf FgoAgwWCX+i03wWJBZ+mAAMLCQcJEOCS6zpcoQ26RxQAAAAAAB4AIHNhbHRAbm90YXRpb25zLnNl cXVvaWEtcGdwLm9yZ/tr8E9NA10HvcAVlSxnox6z62KXCInWjZaiBIlgX6O5AxUKCAKbAQIeARYh BMKfigwB81402BaqXOCS6zpcoQ26AADZHQD/Zx9nc3N2kj13AUsKMr/7zekBtgfSIGB3hRCU74Su G44A/34Yp6IAkndewLxb1WdRSokycnaCVyrk0nb4imeAYyoPtBc8ZGtnQGZpZnRoaG9yc2VtYW4u bmV0PojRBBMWCgCDBYJf6LTfBYkFn6YAAwsJBwkQ4JLrOlyhDbpHFAAAAAAAHgAgc2FsdEBub3Rh dGlvbnMuc2VxdW9pYS1wZ3Aub3JnL0Gwxvypz2tu1IPG+yu1zPjkiZwpscsitwrVvzN3bbADFQoI ApsBAh4BFiEEwp+KDAHzXjTYFqpc4JLrOlyhDboAAPkXAP0Z29z7jW+YzLzPTQML4EQLMbkHOfU4 +s+ki81Czt0WqgD/SJ8RyrqDCtEP8+E4ZSR01ysKqh+MUAsTaJlzZjehiQ24MwRf6LTfFgkrBgEE AdpHDwEBB0DkKHOW2kmqfAK461+acQ49gc2Z6VoXMChRqobGP0ubb4kBiAQYFgoBOgWCX+i03wWJ BZ+mAAkQ4JLrOlyhDbpHFAAAAAAAHgAgc2FsdEBub3RhdGlvbnMuc2VxdW9pYS1wZ3Aub3Jnfvo+ nHoxDwaLaJD8XZuXiaqBNZtIGXIypF1udBBRoc0CmwICHgG+oAQZFgoAbwWCX+i03wkQPp1xc3He VlxHFAAAAAAAHgAgc2FsdEBub3RhdGlvbnMuc2VxdW9pYS1wZ3Aub3JnaheiqE7Pfi3Atb3GGTw+ jFcBGOaobgzEJrhEuFpXREEWIQQttUkcnfDcj0MoY88+nXFzcd5WXAAAvrsBAIJ5sBg8Udocv25N stN/zWOiYpnjjvOjVMLH4fV3pWE1AP9T6hzHz7hRnAA8d01vqoxOlQ3O6cb/kFYAjqx3oMXSBhYh BMKfigwB81402BaqXOCS6zpcoQ26AADX7gD/b83VObe14xrNP8xcltRrBZF5OE1rQSPkMNy+eWpk eCwA/1hxiS8ZxL5/elNjXiWuHXEvUGnRoVj745Vl48sZPVYMuDgEX+i03xIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEH QIGex1WZbH6xhUBve5mblScGYU+Y8QJOomXH+rr5tMsMAwEICYjJBBgWCgB7BYJf6LTfBYkFn6YA CRDgkus6XKENukcUAAAAAAAeACBzYWx0QG5vdGF0aW9ucy5zZXF1b2lhLXBncC5vcmcEAx9vTD3b J0SXkhvcRcCr6uIDJwic3KFKxkH1m4QW0QKbDAIeARYhBMKfigwB81402BaqXOCS6zpcoQ26AAAX mwD8CWmukxwskU82RZLMk5fm1wCgMB5z8dA50KLw3rgsCykBAKg1w/Y7XpBS3SlXEegIg1K1e6dR fRxL7Z37WZXoH8AH Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:03:40 -0400 Message-ID: <87sfxw59qb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] PGP/MIME, RFC 3156, Require empty boundary preamble lines X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 02:04:16 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon 2021-09-20 11:57:53 +0200, Kai Engert wrote: > Perhaps a future revision of RFC 3156 could state that preamble lines=20 > inside the signed payload MUST be empty - in the hope that no transport=20 > agent will add their own preamble lines. RFC 3156 describes (among other things) how to use OpenPGP in the context RFC 1847 multipart/signed messages. RFC 1847 =C2=A72.1 already says: > The entire contents of the multipart/signed container must be treated > as opaque while it is in transit from an originator to a recipient. > Intermediate message transfer agents must not alter the content of a > multipart/signed in any way, including, but not limited to, changing > the content transfer encoding of the body part or any of its > encapsulated body parts. If the MTA that mangled the sample message is not treating the signed message content as opaque, they are already inviolation of RFC 1847. Making a revision to make those MTAs "more" in violation seems unlikely to cure the problem. The best we can do here, i think, is to encourage MUAs to generate minimally-fancy MIME messages (i.e., empty preamble and postamble seem the simplest possible, and therefore least likely to be tampered with, since stripping of preamble and postamble seem like the most likely form of tampering) and encourage MTAs to comply with the now quarter-century-old standards that were surely available to them at the time the current operating version was released. --dkg --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQttUkcnfDcj0MoY88+nXFzcd5WXAUCYUvgfgAKCRA+nXFzcd5W XF42AQDFfM07cUIgk2ZMRhgjb2lbVJR+72qfyznfVTkIIvihKAEA1MJULLfF2jIM WO25nNqvQ9nnqNjWIYJWhRRoGi71hwQ= =KyWc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Sep 23 02:38:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E26A3A297A for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 02:38:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kuix.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rPoSNYeE-lo0 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 02:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cloud.kuix.de (cloud.kuix.de [IPv6:2001:8d8:1801:86::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1F193A2978 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 02:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.137.0.17] (tmo-100-237.customers.d1-online.com [80.187.100.237]) by cloud.kuix.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E2716191E80; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:38:08 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kuix.de; s=2018; t=1632389889; bh=qgTpInONbMNz88PCpNv9lfznMGeyHSvCzsYBEvY2gC0=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=Fxb2gvm5IjC9u3pjXS+8Fs5DdvHmb5ztDTpWtOS3kVbA1AkF2sTp8jUD1BZjTP6EI t6NAVZksX7VVWsFPq1Z4gHsrM2XdBoJL4zrP2mv3ZrZCELh88OR8HOPJ9CShKk3L03 pSsG5ymiKe6iYwSJqhITz+YE634OVDxmH3lfewIbmIlhqKpaZ419v7bmOrIGA75N5/ Yga7uqGv+RmqG53SfakAwMTKzyZF6e6scBwR6UEZRocJv3jgNO8Da2H0mLtEXW4yqA fWqTpMzolgSRggLzQEN5yF8ldG2ndCVcxN5DXVCDh+5lnQOODYYR98FYIflPHruN3C wya8sd20J++IA== Message-ID: <47c510f5-2eb6-39ca-3c3d-0653572e8ad6@kuix.de> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 11:38:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/91.0 Thunderbird/91.1.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor , openpgp@ietf.org References: <4e17aa02-e78c-3d48-8a68-7342996ddedd@kuix.de> <87sfxw59qb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> From: Kai Engert In-Reply-To: <87sfxw59qb.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [openpgp] PGP/MIME, RFC 3156, Require empty boundary preamble lines X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:38:18 -0000 Daniel and Werner, thanks for your explanations, they are very helpful. Regards Kai From nobody Fri Sep 24 07:23:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietf.org Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAEC63A2A9F; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 07:23:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: kaduk@mit.edu, openpgp-chairs@ietf.org, openpgp@ietf.org, stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.38.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <163249340389.19578.4772782981074292635@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 07:23:24 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [openpgp] openpgp - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 112 X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 14:23:26 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Stephen Farrell, a Chair of the openpgp working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Open Specification for Pretty Good Privacy Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Stephen Farrell Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 40 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair conflict: tls saag dprive lake Technology overlap: cfrg People who must be present: Stephen Farrell Daniel Kahn Gillmor Benjamin Kaduk Resources Requested: Special Requests: We may cancel this depending on the timing of an expected I-D update from a design team and the list's reaction to that. Our hope is that a session will be useful. Should know in <3 weeks. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Sep 24 07:27:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 756123A2AC8 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 07:27:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mL0VVdOB0glI for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 07:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr130130.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.13.130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 475133A2AC5 for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 14:27:34 -0000 --g3zCyuMek94Kjs7ee6APfxch19aO2OC9Z Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="8cmPl6A4ofuZJMysA5s3qFWxZBbRhmJDQ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "openpgp@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: openpgp - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 112 References: <163249340389.19578.4772782981074292635@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <163249340389.19578.4772782981074292635@ietfa.amsl.com> --8cmPl6A4ofuZJMysA5s3qFWxZBbRhmJDQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------91675873F9C5400981A130D2" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------91675873F9C5400981A130D2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi folks, Just to explain this: the DT are hoping to have made enough progress to emit an updated I-D in the next week or two and that may justify us having a session at IETF112, depending on whether the I-D pops out in time and how you all react to that on the list. More news as we get it, Cheers, Stephen. On 24/09/2021 15:23, IETF Meeting Session Request Tool wrote: >=20 >=20 > A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Stephen Farrel= l, a Chair of the openpgp working group. >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------- > Working Group Name: Open Specification for Pretty Good Privacy > Area Name: Security Area > Session Requester: Stephen Farrell >=20 >=20 > Number of Sessions: 1 > Length of Session(s): 1 Hour > Number of Attendees: 40 > Conflicts to Avoid: > Chair conflict: tls saag dprive lake > Technology overlap: cfrg >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > People who must be present: > Stephen Farrell > Daniel Kahn Gillmor > Benjamin Kaduk >=20 > Resources Requested: >=20 > Special Requests: > We may cancel this depending on the timing of an expected I-D update= from a design team and the list's reaction to that. Our hope is that= a session will be useful. Should know in <3 weeks. > --------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 --------------91675873F9C5400981A130D2 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY 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--g3zCyuMek94Kjs7ee6APfxch19aO2OC9Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmFN4EkFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+rI cRAAqAD8XE3XuNMJ8wA1u42OWzeCBI6ioqYimMZX7Sgl1RFxEEbEUENpoHid+bb56+nT+02JjeiO 6JGGhUQFFPR4IzMXxziJeOTMfTDdAFZC3sKB0nEfCTiFPcAlcc/FAo71wuNkhJdZ/67k/TZgAyjx w4KZt7Gpnb+EyN/i/mrJLpZG310PWm5qraIc1gzm/z+qUvBrhABxfV85MMIpbPBS5SqliErWU2Ba 08fcy+heuscUiHp/CwICRC7PpBhTtfyJ0E6H0ZX/qKSM1n3FFddj5aOJKidTDzOsXBl/DA/ux8ye 6JOdgLe1K9s/T2TYyiGu9pO4UdLaNGvfGqKdm9SiMa1cYwn7Ft6Yvk482PT5ztjuZdLIJwaO8roj yDbdcwbG+mdiGHPyIiEbJSo/47eyBRKVNz7a7IVPnVE9Srhi049LSYHaUvEEPnKcYLaWECFMPnql LAVEJAGea62N19UW8I6nNxQBnZh1nm1X1ETzSppfSTJBLdscrSkogs2rxEo7E0FiEVEnDLSUbZJu EzqV0dYhxykGYtBvLMwwyOZePjVn4SaX31ukGMmoWS7P3n40GpNIyVefBnr6zCDDAJ4HtslGwOKD 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