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Thread-Topic: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 68th IETF
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Subject: [OPS-AREA] FW: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 68th
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=20
Please take into consideration the announcement below.=20

This applies also the submissions of I-Ds related to mini-BOFs in the
OPS Area.=20

Dan


=20

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-secretariat@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-secretariat@ietf.org]=20
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 7:00 AM
To: ietf-announce@ietf.org
Subject: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 68th IETF
Meeting in Prague, Czech Republic=20


There are two (2) Internet-Draft cutoff dates for the 68th IETF Meeting
in Prague, Czech Republic:

February 26th: Cutoff Date for Initial (i.e., version -00)
Internet-Draft Submissions=20

All initial Internet-Drafts (version -00) must be submitted by Monday,
February 26th at 9:00 AM ET. As always, all initial submissions with a
filename beginning with "draft-ietf" must be approved by the appropriate
WG Chair before they can be processed or announced.  The Secretariat
would appreciate receiving WG Chair approval by Monday, February 19th at
9:00 AM ET.

March 5th: Cutoff Date for Revised (i.e., version -01 and higher)
Internet-Draft Submissions=20

All revised Internet-Drafts (version -01 and higher) must be submitted
by Monday, March 5th at 9:00 AM ET.

Initial and revised Internet-Drafts received after their respective
cutoff dates will not be made available in the Internet-Drafts directory
or announced until on or after Monday, March 19th at 9:00 AM ET, when
Internet-Draft posting resumes.  Please do not wait until the last
minute to submit.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. If you have any
questions or concerns, then please send a message to
internet-drafts@ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

FYI: The Internet-Draft cutoff dates as well as other significant dates
for the 68th IETF Meeting can be found at
http://www.ietf.org/meetings/cutoff_dates_68.html.

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From ops-area-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 17:18:54 2007
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Subject: [OPS-AREA] [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-xu-cops-push-00.txt]
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The ITU-T is standardizing protocols for a number of resource control 
interfaces. COPS-PR (amongst other protocols) has been proposed for the 
Rw interface, which manages gate control and NATing at the ingress and 
egress to a QoS-controlled network. However, as the I-D below describes, 
COPS doesn't work as well for the push model as it does for the pull 
model. The draft below proposes a modification to COPS that would make 
push model operation more efficient. The primary authors, Xu Heyuan and 
Hexian Huang, would welcome comments on the proposed approach.

Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
> directories.
> 
> 
> 	Title		: A Modification to COPS to Improve Implementation of Push Mode
> 	Author(s)	: H. Xu, et al.
> 	Filename	: draft-xu-cops-push-00.txt
> 	Pages		: 17
> 	Date		: 2007-2-16
> 	
>    COPS (RFC 2748) was originally designed for pull mode operation.  The
>    message exchanges for pull mode are efficient and support a close
>    relationship between the protocol operations and state associated
>    with particular events detected at the Policy Enforcement Point
>    (PEP).  The operation of push mode, as defined in COPS-PR (RFC 3084),
>    is more awkward.  Push mode involves extra messaging between the PEP
>    and the Policy Decision Point (PDP) if one again wants to associate
>    state arising from specific events (this time detected at the PDP)
>    with specific protocol operations.
> 
>    This memo proposes to modify RFC 2748 to make push mode operation
>    more efficient.  Comments are invited on whether there are issues
>    with the proposed solution.
> 
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-xu-cops-push-00.txt
> 
...

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=20


=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]=20
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 1:50 AM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-harrington-operations-and-management-00.txt=20

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.


	Title		: Guidelines for Considering Operations and
Management of New Protocols
	Author(s)	: D. Harrington
	Filename	:
draft-harrington-operations-and-management-00.txt
	Pages		: 31
	Date		: 2007-2-15
=09
   New protocols or protocol extensions are best designed with due
   consideration of operations and management issues related to the
   protocol.  Retrofitting operations and management recommendations to
   protocols is sub-optimal.  The purpose of this document is to provide
   guidance to authors of protocol documents about aspects to consider
   related to the operations and management that should be considered
   for inclusion in documents defining requirements or functionality of
   new protocols or protocol extensions.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-harrington-operations-and-mana
gement-00.txt

To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20
i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20
the message.=20
You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20
to change your subscription settings.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20
username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20
logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20
"get draft-harrington-operations-and-management-00.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

Send a message to:
	mailserv@ietf.org.
In the body type:
	"FILE
/internet-drafts/draft-harrington-operations-and-management-00.txt".
=09
NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
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From ops-area-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 19 12:22:13 2007
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Thread-Topic: WG Review: Media Server Control (mediactrl) 
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From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
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=20
Please pay attention at the following discussion around the WG Review
for Media Server Control (MEDIACTRL)
http://www.ietf.org/IESG/EVALUATIONS/mediactrl-charter.txt which will be
discussed at the 2/22 IESG telechat.=20

Feedback about this proposed charter and the relationship with O&M is
welcome.=20

Dan


=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Pekka Savola [mailto:pekkas@netcore.fi]=20
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 3:14 PM
To: iesg@ietf.org
Cc: ietf@ietf.org; mediactrl@ietf.org
Subject: Re: WG Review: Media Server Control (mediactrl)=20

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, IESG Secretary wrote:
> Given the wide acceptance of the media server, we need a standard way=20
> to control them.

This, and taking a look at draft-boulton-sip-control-framework-05.txt
which seems to be relevant here, seems to imply this group is about to
build a management framework for SIP services.  I'm not sure if such a
framework has been chartered yet in other WGs, and if not, this would be
the first time, bearing closer scrutiny how to do it correctly.

How much the manamgement part of O&M has been consulted?  What is the
model of co-operation with the IETF management expertise?

> MILESTONES
>
> APR 2007 Requirements Document
> JUN 2007 Framework Document
> NOV 2007 Conference Control Protocol
> MAR 2008 IVR Control Protocol
> JUN 2008 Broker Protocol or BCP

These are horribly vague.  Are the dates for WG adoption?  WGLC?=20
Shipping off to the IESG?

--=20
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings


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Thread-Topic: New Liaison Statement, "NGN Management Focus Group" 
Thread-Index: AcdV+usu+PHWpd69Qx+JCz05MUl0wwAVFQMw
From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "IAB" <iab@iab.org>, <iesg@ietf.org>, "OPS Area" <ops-area@ietf.org>
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=20


=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Jones (ITU-T SG 4) [mailto:tsbsg4@itu.int]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:57 PM
To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); David Kessens
Cc: sob@harvard.edu; chair@ietf.org; djsidor@nortel.com;
lmak@alcatel-lucent.com; geoff@caryer.co.uk; tsbsg4@itu.int;
greg.jones@itu.int; djsidor@nortel.com
Subject: New Liaison Statement, "NGN Management Focus Group"=20


Title: NGN Management Focus Group
Submission Date: 2007-02-21
URL of the IETF Web page:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=3D299=20

From: Greg Jones(ITU-T SG 4) <tsbsg4@itu.int>
To: IETF OAM Area(Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com>, David Kessens
<david.kessens@nokia.com>)
Cc: sob@harvard.edu
chair@ietf.org
djsidor@nortel.com
lmak@alcatel-lucent.com
geoff@caryer.co.uk
Reponse Contact: tsbsg4@itu.int
greg.jones@itu.int
Technical Contact: djsidor@nortel.com
Purpose: Information and Action
Body: This liaison statement informs you about the current state and the
plans of the NGN Management Focus Group (NGNMFG).=20
This focus group was established in September 2004 to organize and
undertake a centralized approach regarding specification of NGN
Management related to FCAPS interfaces, in particular to support NGN
Release 1. Under the provisions of ITU-T Recommendation A.7, the NGNMFG
was organized under the sponsorship of SG 4.=20
Since its inception, the NGNMFG has worked on its main deliverable, the
NGN Management Roadmap. Recently version 3.1 was completed.
The NGNMFG reported about the progress of its activities to the February
2007 SG 4 meeting. At this meeting, SG 4, decided to continue the NGNMFG
under modified terms of reference, justified in part by the need for
additional deliverables.
The most recent version of the Roadmap document and the terms of
reference under which the NGNMFG will continue its operation (v5.0) are
available from the public part of the ITU-T SG 4 website:
http://www.itu.int/ITU-T/studygroups/com04/ngn-mfg/index.html
In order to support the role of the NGN Management Roadmap document as a
complete and comprehensive set of NGN Management specifications, you are
kindly requested to bring any related specification activities in your
organizations to the attention of the NGNMFG.
Any participants of your organization that are interested in NGNMFG
activities and documentation are invited to register as indicated at the
aforementioned website.
Attachment(s):
     NGN Management Focus Group - body text
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file401.doc)




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Thread-Topic: Approval of draft-heard-rfc4181-update
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From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
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The IESG approved the publication of draft-heard-rfc4181-update as BCP.=20

Congratulations and thanks to Mike Heard for writing and driving this.=20

Dan

=20


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Thread-Topic: NomCom 2006/2007 IESG and IAOC Announcement 
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From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
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=20
Welcome to Ron Bonica as new IESG member and Area Director for
Operations and Management. I wish him success in this challenging and
exciting task.=20

Thanks to David Kessens for the leadership and the dedication during his
years of service as Area Director. David will be in charge until the
change of the guard that will happen during the Prague meeting, and will
work with Ron and me the transition process. I am sure that we will
benefit from David's contributions and experience afterwards as well.=20

Dan

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Lange [mailto:andrew.lange@alcatel.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 11:32 PM
To: IETF Announcement list
Subject: NomCom 2006/2007 IESG and IAOC Announcement=20

I am pleased to announce that the 2006-2007 NomCom selection and
confirmation process for IESG and IAOC is complete. At this time, on
behalf of the NomCom, here is the list of IESG and IAOC members selected
for the positions under review by the NomCom:
i
IESG

----
Russ Housley    IETF Chair/General Area Director
Chris Newman    Application Area Director
Mark Townsley   Internet Area Director
Ron Bonica      Operations and Management Area Director
Jon Peterson    Real-time App. and Infra. Area Director
Dave Ward       Routing Area Director
Tim Polk        Security Area Director
Lars Eggert     Transport Area Director

IAOC
----
Jonne Soininen

The NomCom joins the rest of the IETF community in thanking all these
individuals for taking these positions, and in thanking all those who
volunteered to be considered as a candidate in the NomCom process.

The IAB list will be announced in a few days.

- Andrew Lange (chair), for the 2006-2007 IESG Nominating Committee




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From: "STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN" <emile.stephan@orange-ftgroup.com>
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Hi,

A new draft is available.
This memo (
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-stephan-ops-xml-mib-module-template-00
) presents a XML template for specifying SMI objects and proposes a
common XSL base for sharing SMI objects definitions with XML
applications.=20

It includes an example of XML application loading MIB objects of a XML
version of the SAMPLE-MIB of
draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-02.txt.

Comments are welcome to prepare the mini bof of Prague.

Regards
Emile



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<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Hi,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">A new draft is available.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
FACE=3D"Times New Roman">Th</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New =
Roman">is</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New Roman"> =
memo</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New Roman"> (</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"> </SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-stephan-ops-xml-mib-module-templ=
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LANG=3D"fr"><U></U></SPAN><U><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></U><U><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-stephan-ops-xml-mib-modul=
e-template-00</FONT></SPAN></U><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN></A><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> )</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New Roman"> =
presents a</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New Roman">XML =
template for</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New =
Roman">specifying</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New Roman"> =
SMI</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
FACE=3D"Times New Roman">objects and proposes a =
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COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New Roman">XSL</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
FACE=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New =
Roman">base</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New Roman">for</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
FACE=3D"Times New Roman">sharing</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
FACE=3D"Times New Roman"> SMI objects</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
FACE=3D"Times New Roman"> definitions</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
FACE=3D"Times New Roman">with</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
FACE=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New Roman">XML =
applications</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Times New =
Roman">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> =
</SPAN></P>

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FACE=3D"Arial">It includes</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
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LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
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FACE=3D"Arial">loading</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">MIB</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">objects</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">of a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">XML version of =
the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">SAMPLE-</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">MIB</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">of</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-02</FONT></SPAN><SP=
AN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">.txt</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Comments are</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> =
welcome</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> to =
prepare the mini bof of Prague.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Regards</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Emile</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></P>
<BR>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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From ops-area-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 06:18:58 2007
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Subject: RE: [OPS-AREA] FW: NomCom 2006/2007 IESG and IAOC Announcement 
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:17:27 +0100
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From: "Wijnen, Bert \(Bert\)" <bwijnen@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "OPS Area" <ops-area@ietf.org>
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Congrats to Ron (and to David as well; you will get a real
life again David; I know from experience).

Bert=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:dromasca@avaya.com]=20
> Sent: woensdag 28 februari 2007 8:02
> To: OPS Area
> Subject: [OPS-AREA] FW: NomCom 2006/2007 IESG and IAOC Announcement=20
>=20
> =20
> Welcome to Ron Bonica as new IESG member and Area Director=20
> for Operations and Management. I wish him success in this=20
> challenging and exciting task.=20
>=20
> Thanks to David Kessens for the leadership and the dedication=20
> during his years of service as Area Director. David will be=20
> in charge until the change of the guard that will happen=20
> during the Prague meeting, and will work with Ron and me the=20
> transition process. I am sure that we will benefit from=20
> David's contributions and experience afterwards as well.=20
>=20
> Dan
>=20
> =20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Lange [mailto:andrew.lange@alcatel.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 11:32 PM
> To: IETF Announcement list
> Subject: NomCom 2006/2007 IESG and IAOC Announcement=20
>=20
> I am pleased to announce that the 2006-2007 NomCom selection=20
> and confirmation process for IESG and IAOC is complete. At=20
> this time, on behalf of the NomCom, here is the list of IESG=20
> and IAOC members selected for the positions under review by=20
> the NomCom:
> i
> IESG
>=20
> ----
> Russ Housley    IETF Chair/General Area Director
> Chris Newman    Application Area Director
> Mark Townsley   Internet Area Director
> Ron Bonica      Operations and Management Area Director
> Jon Peterson    Real-time App. and Infra. Area Director
> Dave Ward       Routing Area Director
> Tim Polk        Security Area Director
> Lars Eggert     Transport Area Director
>=20
> IAOC
> ----
> Jonne Soininen
>=20
> The NomCom joins the rest of the IETF community in thanking=20
> all these individuals for taking these positions, and in=20
> thanking all those who volunteered to be considered as a=20
> candidate in the NomCom process.
>=20
> The IAB list will be announced in a few days.
>=20
> - Andrew Lange (chair), for the 2006-2007 IESG Nominating Committee
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> IETF-Announce mailing list
> IETF-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> OPS-AREA mailing list
> OPS-AREA@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ops-area
>=20

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de>
To: STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN <emile.stephan@orange-ftgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [OPS-AREA] draft-stephan-ops-xml-mib-module-template-00.txt:
	XML template for MIB modules
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On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 09:15:19AM +0100, STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN wrote:

> It includes an example of XML application loading MIB objects of a XML
> version of the SAMPLE-MIB of
> draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-02.txt.
> 
> Comments are welcome to prepare the mini bof of Prague.

I like to see a clear statement why this approach is better than using
a simple include directive and writing the MIB module directly in
exactly the way in should look like.

If there are strong reasons for using XML, I assume the way to go
would be to introduce appropriate markup constructs instead of
(mis-)using <t> and <list> for almost everything. But personally, I am
not yet convinced that there are strong reasons to do this. (And yes,
I have read the introduction.)

Note that I do not really plan to have a discussion on this here on
this mailing list. I am just giving you ideas to think about before
the bof so you can try to convince me (in case I end up in the bof
;-).

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder		 Jacobs University Bremen
<http://www.eecs.iu-bremen.de/>	 P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany

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From ops-area-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 11:19:32 2007
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From: "David Harrington" <ietfdbh@comcast.net>
To: <j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de>,
	"'STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN'" <emile.stephan@orange-ftgroup.com>
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	template for MIB modules
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Hi,

While I wrote the Templates for MIB Documents to use an include
mechanism, I can see some benefit in writing the MIB module in XML,
with the intention of having xml2rfc process it into a document. 

The line length issue mentioned in Emile's document is a real
irritation, partly because the error reporting from xml2rfc is not
always good at identifying the line in the XML source where the
problem exists. XXE helps, but not totally.

So some people might prefer to write their MIB module in XML. I an not
yet convinced this is something the OPS area or MIB Doctors should
promote because I think there are likely to be problems with the
approach that will make it harder to write and review MIB documents. 

I suspect the requirement that the MIB module must be able to stand
alone from the rest of the document will probably cause problems if
writers try to utilize xml2rfc's and XXE reference handling
capabilities in the MIB module itself, but I suppose this is no
different than writing the whole document in a text editor.

I am happy to see people experiment with Emile's approach to see if it
makes life easier for MIB writers/editors and MIB Doctors.

dbh

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:35 AM
> To: STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN
> Cc: ops-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [OPS-AREA] 
> draft-stephan-ops-xml-mib-module-template-00.txt:XML template 
> for MIB modules
> 
> On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 09:15:19AM +0100, STEPHAN Emile 
> RD-CORE-LAN wrote:
> 
> > It includes an example of XML application loading MIB 
> objects of a XML
> > version of the SAMPLE-MIB of
> > draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-02.txt.
> > 
> > Comments are welcome to prepare the mini bof of Prague.
> 
> I like to see a clear statement why this approach is better than
using
> a simple include directive and writing the MIB module directly in
> exactly the way in should look like.
> 
> If there are strong reasons for using XML, I assume the way to go
> would be to introduce appropriate markup constructs instead of
> (mis-)using <t> and <list> for almost everything. But personally, I
am
> not yet convinced that there are strong reasons to do this. (And
yes,
> I have read the introduction.)
> 
> Note that I do not really plan to have a discussion on this here on
> this mailing list. I am just giving you ideas to think about before
> the bof so you can try to convince me (in case I end up in the bof
> ;-).
> 
> /js
> 
> -- 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder		 Jacobs University Bremen
> <http://www.eecs.iu-bremen.de/>	 P.O. Box 750 561, 
> 28725 Bremen, Germany
> 
> _______________________________________________
> OPS-AREA mailing list
> OPS-AREA@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ops-area
> 



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From: "Natale, Bob" <RNATALE@mitre.org>
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Hi,
=20
[Rushing out to a meeting....]
=20
Just in case people did not catch the announcement, the following I-D
was posted for the Prague mini-BOF indicated below:
"Converting SNMP MIBs to SOA/Web Services Management Artifacts",=20
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-natale-snmp-mibs-to-ontology-
00.txt
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-natale-snmp-mibs-to-ontology
-00.txt> .
=20
This topic is considerably broader than the MIB-to-XML work proposed by
Emile, but (while a primary purpose of the BOF and the WG it proposes
is to identify the right set of artifacts) it is almost certain that
correct and efficient XML encoding of MIBs will be at the basis of the
desired artifacts, so it is good that we are having that discussion
(and that Emile's BOF presentation precedes this one on the agenda).
=20
Meeting 2 - Thursday March 22, 2007 - 9:00 to 11:30AM
...
5. Mini-BOF G: OWL techniques for MIB to XML documents and schema
translation - Bob Natale (total: 40 min)
=20
Specification of a standard methodology for translating SNMP MIBs into
outputs more directly usable by emerging SOA/web services management
tools, and specification of a standard methodology for validating those
translations.  Appropriate translation outputs are TBD by the WG, but
can be expected to include one or more of the following: XML, RDF,
WSDL,
WS-Policy, WS-Event/Notification, Ontology.  The translation output(s)
should allow for extension of the respective managed element data model
in the native SOA/web services environment.  Because of the
extensibility objective, reverse translation back into SNMP MIB format
is a non-goal of the WG, but the possibility should be considered when
weighing alternatives.
=20
Cheers,
BobN

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	charset="us-ascii"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3059" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D138273016-28022007>Hi,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D138273016-28022007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D138273016-28022007>[Rushing out to a =
meeting....]</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D138273016-28022007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D138273016-28022007>Just=20
in case people did not catch the announcement, the following I-D was =
posted for=20
the Prague mini-BOF indicated below:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D138273016-28022007>"Converting SNMP MIBs to SOA/Web Services =
Management=20
Artifacts", </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000><A=20
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-natale-snmp-mibs-to-ont=
ology-00.txt"><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana=20
size=3D2>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-natale-snmp-mibs-to-on=
tology-00.txt</FONT></A><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana><FONT size=3D2>.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D138273016-28022007><FONT face=3DVerdana =
color=3D#800000 size=3D2>This=20
topic is considerably broader than the MIB-to-XML work proposed by =
Emile, but=20
(while a primary purpose of the BOF and the WG it proposes is to =
identify the=20
right set of artifacts) it is almost certain that correct and efficient =
XML=20
encoding of MIBs will be at the basis of the desired artifacts, so it is =
good=20
that we are having that discussion (and that Emile's BOF presentation =
precedes=20
this one on the agenda).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2>Meeting 2 - Thursday =
March 22, 2007=20
- 9:00 to 11:30AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D138273016-28022007><FONT face=3DVerdana =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2>5. Mini-BOF G: OWL =
techniques for=20
MIB to XML documents and schema<BR>translation - Bob Natale (total: 40=20
min)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2>Specification of a =
standard=20
methodology for translating SNMP MIBs into<BR>outputs more directly =
usable by=20
emerging SOA/web services management<BR>tools, and specification of a =
standard=20
methodology for validating those<BR>translations.&nbsp; Appropriate =
translation=20
outputs are TBD by the WG, but<BR>can be expected to include one or more =
of the=20
following: XML, RDF, WSDL,<BR>WS-Policy, WS-Event/Notification, =
Ontology.&nbsp;=20
The translation output(s)<BR>should allow for extension of the =
respective=20
managed element data model<BR>in the native SOA/web services =
environment.&nbsp;=20
Because of the<BR>extensibility objective, reverse translation back into =
SNMP=20
MIB format<BR>is a non-goal of the WG, but the possibility should be =
considered=20
when<BR>weighing alternatives.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D138273016-28022007><FONT face=3DVerdana =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D138273016-28022007><FONT face=3DVerdana =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>BobN</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From ops-area-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 12:28:22 2007
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	template for MIB modules
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David Harrington wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> While I wrote the Templates for MIB Documents to use an include
> mechanism, I can see some benefit in writing the MIB module in XML,
> with the intention of having xml2rfc process it into a document. 
> 
> The line length issue mentioned in Emile's document is a real
> irritation, partly because the error reporting from xml2rfc is not
> always good at identifying the line in the XML source where the
> problem exists. XXE helps, but not totally.
> 
> So some people might prefer to write their MIB module in XML. I an not
> yet convinced this is something the OPS area or MIB Doctors should
> promote because I think there are likely to be problems with the
> approach that will make it harder to write and review MIB documents. 
> 
> I suspect the requirement that the MIB module must be able to stand
> alone from the rest of the document will probably cause problems if
> writers try to utilize xml2rfc's and XXE reference handling
> capabilities in the MIB module itself, but I suppose this is no
> different than writing the whole document in a text editor.
> 
> I am happy to see people experiment with Emile's approach to see if it
> makes life easier for MIB writers/editors and MIB Doctors.
> 

This is the sort of thing that a software tool should generate
from the SMIv2 source, so (IMO) we are dealing with implementation
details for that tool.  Since xml2rfc is essentially a mandatory
tool for IETF submission writers, it seems in scope to reach
some formal agreement on the 'feature-request' given to the tools team
for enhanced MIB authoring support.


> dbh

Andy

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From ops-area-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 13:02:46 2007
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Hi Bob,


I agree with you about the scope of the problem,
and I'm looking forward to the BoF.

I'm very interested in the problem of automated translation,
and a procedural model (based on NETCONF standard and extended
operations) that can directly integrate with SOA/WSDL NMS applications.

The only paragraph in your draft I really disagree with
is the final bullet in Sec. 3, about possible WG charter items:

  o  Nothing that is inconsistent with management entity support for
     SNMPv3 security and access control mechanisms will be introduced
     into the solution(s) standardized by this effort.

IMO, this requirement removes the possibility for real improvement
in the areas of access control and security integration.
In reality, an SNMP agent isn't going to be accepting the NM connection
for this new SOA interface.  It is more practical to use
a user-session-based protocol like NETCONF (or CLI over SSH2 even),
and interface to the SNMP engine in the agent implementation.

An access control model that accounts for verbs, classes, nested data,
and other SOA-like details is going to be easier to implement than VACM.

I believe the only component needed from 'the SNMP world' is SMIv2.
Standard translation from SMIv2 to XSD allows a high-level API to
reuse the semantics and algorithmic name translation of individual
MIB tables and objects in the definition of 'methods' (or verbs or
procedures or operations, or whatever else these are called).

These methods are not a normative component of SNMP.
They are usually not defined at all, and if they are,
it is usually in non-normative appendices or examples.

Basing a high-level API on low-level SNMP get* and set operations
is going to be much more complicated than almost any other
implementation choice.  Encoding SNMP operations in XML is
a "worst of both worlds" scenario.


Andy



> Hi,
>  
> [Rushing out to a meeting....]
>  
> Just in case people did not catch the announcement, the following I-D 
> was posted for the Prague mini-BOF indicated below:
> "Converting SNMP MIBs to SOA/Web Services Management Artifacts",
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-natale-snmp-mibs-to-ontology-00.txt.
>  
> This topic is considerably broader than the MIB-to-XML work proposed by 
> Emile, but (while a primary purpose of the BOF and the WG it proposes is 
> to identify the right set of artifacts) it is almost certain that 
> correct and efficient XML encoding of MIBs will be at the basis of the 
> desired artifacts, so it is good that we are having that discussion (and 
> that Emile's BOF presentation precedes this one on the agenda).
>  
> Meeting 2 - Thursday March 22, 2007 - 9:00 to 11:30AM
> ...
> 5. Mini-BOF G: OWL techniques for MIB to XML documents and schema
> translation - Bob Natale (total: 40 min)
>  
> Specification of a standard methodology for translating SNMP MIBs into
> outputs more directly usable by emerging SOA/web services management
> tools, and specification of a standard methodology for validating those
> translations.  Appropriate translation outputs are TBD by the WG, but
> can be expected to include one or more of the following: XML, RDF, WSDL,
> WS-Policy, WS-Event/Notification, Ontology.  The translation output(s)
> should allow for extension of the respective managed element data model
> in the native SOA/web services environment.  Because of the
> extensibility objective, reverse translation back into SNMP MIB format
> is a non-goal of the WG, but the possibility should be considered when
> weighing alternatives.
>  
> Cheers,
> BobN
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> OPS-AREA mailing list
> OPS-AREA@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ops-area


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HI,

First of all, thanks for reading and for reacting before the mini bof. =
That will improve the discussion in Prague.

Yours points of view cover the 3 major directions covered by the draft: =
the  IETF process for MIB modules standardization, the XML approach used =
and the the need of tying SMI and XML.

Regarding the IETF process, I have 2 concerns:=20
	As more and more people are writing IETF document in XML, as RFC editor =
asks for the XML version of the draft if available, MIB editors need a =
comfortable way to edit MIB module part of the draft in XML too. I edit =
PCE WG MIBs draft in XML in that way; it works (see PCE DIS MIB below) =
without any complaint of Smilint. So there is not any side effect =
regarding MIB doctor tasks.=20
	There is no other language inside the IETF standardization process than =
the SMI to encourage the specification of precise management object. So =
I propose to provide XML applications with the capability to load MIB =
module.=20

Regarding the second point, it is clear the proposed XML template is =
just an overlay over SMI macros. So the intense usage of <t><list> is =
not elegant even if the Xpath may be reduced to //list[@smi]/list/t. On =
the other hand, as the SMI is already formal there is not a big benefit =
to double markups.=20


Finally, several questions related to the need of minimum connection =
between SMI and XML:
*	Do we need to make MIB editing more friendly? What are the benefits of =
doing it?
*	Are there any protocols relying on XML data model that need to load, =
or that will take benefit of loading, part of MIB module for configuring =
or for monitoring? Is there something else proposed by IETF?=20
*	Is that urgent? How are we going to deal with double management =
interface? Can we afford to go through a long standardization process =
related to XML SMI without providing some initial guidance and tools?=20
*	Is this draft a first piece of the solution? What are the other pieces =
?


 <<draft-ietf-pce-disc-mib-00.xml>>=20

Regards
Emile

-----Message d'origine-----
De : David Harrington [mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net]=20
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 28 f=E9vrier 2007 17:15
=C0 : j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de; STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN
Cc : ops-area@ietf.org
Objet : RE: [OPS-AREA] =
draft-stephan-ops-xml-mib-module-template-00.txt:XML template for MIB =
modules

Hi,

While I wrote the Templates for MIB Documents to use an include
mechanism, I can see some benefit in writing the MIB module in XML,
with the intention of having xml2rfc process it into a document.=20

The line length issue mentioned in Emile's document is a real
irritation, partly because the error reporting from xml2rfc is not
always good at identifying the line in the XML source where the
problem exists. XXE helps, but not totally.

So some people might prefer to write their MIB module in XML. I an not
yet convinced this is something the OPS area or MIB Doctors should
promote because I think there are likely to be problems with the
approach that will make it harder to write and review MIB documents.=20

I suspect the requirement that the MIB module must be able to stand
alone from the rest of the document will probably cause problems if
writers try to utilize xml2rfc's and XXE reference handling
capabilities in the MIB module itself, but I suppose this is no
different than writing the whole document in a text editor.

I am happy to see people experiment with Emile's approach to see if it
makes life easier for MIB writers/editors and MIB Doctors.

dbh

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:35 AM
> To: STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN
> Cc: ops-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [OPS-AREA]=20
> draft-stephan-ops-xml-mib-module-template-00.txt:XML template=20
> for MIB modules
>=20
> On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 09:15:19AM +0100, STEPHAN Emile=20
> RD-CORE-LAN wrote:
>=20
> > It includes an example of XML application loading MIB=20
> objects of a XML
> > version of the SAMPLE-MIB of
> > draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-02.txt.
> >=20
> > Comments are welcome to prepare the mini bof of Prague.
>=20
> I like to see a clear statement why this approach is better than
using
> a simple include directive and writing the MIB module directly in
> exactly the way in should look like.
>=20
> If there are strong reasons for using XML, I assume the way to go
> would be to introduce appropriate markup constructs instead of
> (mis-)using <t> and <list> for almost everything. But personally, I
am
> not yet convinced that there are strong reasons to do this. (And
yes,
> I have read the introduction.)
>=20
> Note that I do not really plan to have a discussion on this here on
> this mailing list. I am just giving you ideas to think about before
> the bof so you can try to convince me (in case I end up in the bof
> ;-).
>=20
> /js
>=20
> --=20
> Juergen Schoenwaelder		 Jacobs University Bremen
> <http://www.eecs.iu-bremen.de/>	 P.O. Box 750 561,=20
> 28725 Bremen, Germany
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> OPS-AREA mailing list
> OPS-AREA@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ops-area
>=20



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<TITLE>RE: [OPS-AREA] =
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<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">HI,</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">F</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">irst</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">of all,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">thanks for</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">reading</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> =
and for reacting</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> before the min</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">i</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> =
bof.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"> That will improve the</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">discussion</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> in =
Prague.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Y</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ours</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">point</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">s</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> of view</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">cover the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">3</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">major</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">directions covered by the draft</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">: the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us">&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">IETF process for MIB modules standardization</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">, the XML</FONT> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">approach</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">used</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> an</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">d the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">need</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> of tying SMI and =
XML</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Regarding the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">IETF process</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> I have 2 =
concerns:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN></P>
<UL>
<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">As m</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">o</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">re</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">and more</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">people</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">are</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">writing</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">IETF document in XML</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">, =
as</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"> RFC editor asks for the XML version of the draft if =
available</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">,</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">MI</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">B</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">ed</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">i</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">tors need a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">comfortable</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> way</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> to edit MIB</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">module</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> part of the draft</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">in XML =
too.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">edit PCE</FONT> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">WG</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">MIBs</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">draft</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">in XML</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> in that =
way</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"> it works (see PCE DIS MIB</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> below</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> without any =
complaint of Smi</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">l</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">int</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> So there is not any side effect =
regarding</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">MIB =
doctor</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">tasks</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">The</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">re is no other</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">language</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> =
inside</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">IETF</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">standardization process</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">tha</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">n</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> the SMI</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> encourage</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">specif</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ication of</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">precise =
management</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">object.</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">So I propose</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> to provide =
XML</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">application</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">s</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">with</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">the capability to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">load</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> MIB module.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
</SPAN></P>
</UL>
<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">R</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">egarding</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">the second point,</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">it</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> is clear</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">proposed</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">XML =
template</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">is just a</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">n</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">overlay</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">over</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">SMI macro</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">s</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">. So the intense usage of =
&lt;t&gt;&lt;list&gt; is not elegant</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> even if =
the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Xpath may be</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">reduce</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">d</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">/</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">/</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">list[@smi]</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">/</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">list/</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">t</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"> On the other hand</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> as the SMI</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">is</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">already</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">formal</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">there is not a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">big</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> benefit to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">double</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> markup</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">s</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
</SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Finally</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">several question</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">s</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> related to the need of</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">minimum connection =
between</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">SMI and =
XML</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">:</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT =
FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Do we need to</FONT> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">make</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> MIB</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">editing</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> more =
f</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">rie</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">ndly</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">?</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> What are the benefits =
of</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">d</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">oing</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">it?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT =
FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Are there any =
protocol</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">s</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">relying =
on XML</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">data model</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">that</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">need to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> load</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">,</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">o</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">r</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> that =
will take benefit of</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> load</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ing</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">part of</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">MI</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">B</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">module for configur</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ing</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> o</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">r =
for</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">monitoring?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">I</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">s</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">there something else</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">proposed</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> by</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">IETF?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
</SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT =
FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">s</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">that</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">urgent</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">How are we going to de</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">a</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">l with</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">double</FONT> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">management</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">interface</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Can we afford</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> to go through</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">long =
standardization</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">process</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">related to XML</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">SMI</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> without</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">providing</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">some</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">initial</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> guidance</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> and =
tools</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT =
FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Is =
this</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">draft</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> first</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">piece of the solution</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> What are the =
other</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">pieces</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN>
</P>
<BR>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" SIZE=3D2 =
COLOR=3D"#000000"> &lt;&lt;draft-ietf-pce-disc-mib-00.xml&gt;&gt; =
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Regar</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">ds</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Emile</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">-----Message d'origine-----<BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">De=A0:</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> David Harrington [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net">mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net</A>]<BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Envoy=E9=A0</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">:</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"> mercredi 28 f=E9vrier 2007 17:15<BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">=C0=A0</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">:</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> =
j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de; STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN<BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Cc=A0:</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> ops-area@ietf.org<BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Objet=A0:</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> RE: [OPS-AREA] =
draft-stephan-ops-xml-mib-module-template-00.txt:XML template for MIB =
modules</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Hi,</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">While I wrote the Templates for MIB Documents to use an =
include</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">mechanism, I can see some benefit in writing the MIB module in =
XML,</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">with the intention of having xml2rfc process it into a document. =
</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">The line length issue mentioned in Emile's document is a =
real</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">irritation, partly because the error reporting from xml2rfc is =
not</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">always good at identifying the line in the XML source where =
the</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">problem exists. XXE helps, but not totally.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">So some people mig</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ht =
prefer to write their MIB module in XML. I an not</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">yet convinced this is something the OPS area or MIB Doctors =
should</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">promote because I think there are likely to be problems with =
the</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">approach that will make it harder to write and review MIB =
documents. </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">I suspect the requirement that the MIB module must be able to =
stand</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">alone from the rest of the document will probably cause problems =
if</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">writers try to utilize xml2rfc's and XXE reference =
handling</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">capabilities in the MIB module itself, but I suppose this =
is</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> no</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">different than writing the whole document in a text =
editor.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">I am happy to see people experiment with Emile's approach to see if =
it</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">makes life easier for MIB writers/editors and MIB =
Doctors.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">dbh</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; From: Juergen Schoenwael</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">der [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de">mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-br=
emen.de</A>] </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:35 AM</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; To: STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; Cc: ops-area@ietf.org</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; Subject: Re: [OPS-AREA] </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; draft-stephan-ops-xml-mib-module-template-00.txt:XML template =
</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; for MIB modules</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 09:15:19AM +0100, STEPHAN Emile =
</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; RD-CORE-LAN wrote:</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; &gt; It includes an example of XML application loading MIB =
</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; objects of a XML</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; &gt; version of the SAMPLE-MIB of</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; &gt; =
draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-02.txt.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; &gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; &gt;</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> Comments are =
welcome to prepare the mini bof of Prague.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; I like to see a clear statement why this approach is better =
than</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">using</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; a simple include directive and writing the MIB module directly =
in</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; exactly the way in should look like.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; If there ar</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">e strong =
reasons for using XML, I assume the way to go</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; would be to introduce appropriate markup constructs instead =
of</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; (mis-)using &lt;t&gt; and &lt;list&gt; for almost everything. =
But personally, I</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">am</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; not yet convinced that there are strong reasons to do this. =
(</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">And</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">yes,</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; I have read the introduction.)</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; Note that I do not really plan to have a discussion on this =
here on</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; this mailing list. I am just giving you ideas to think about =
before</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; the bof so you can try to convince me (in case I end up in the =
bof</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; ;-).</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; /js</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; -- </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; Juergen Schoenwaelder =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Jacobs University =
Bremen</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"http://www.eecs.iu-bremen.de/">http://www.eecs.iu-bremen.de/</A>&=
gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; P.O. Box 750 561, =
</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; 28725 Bremen, Germany</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; =
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Just a logistics detail at this point. The second OPS Area meeting moved
to Wednesday afternoon sessions I and II. See
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_agenda_html.cgi?meeting_num=3D=

68. The good news is that we have now at hand 2 hours on Monday and 3
hours for Wednesday. We'll work on a re-shuffled agenda to be posted in
the coming days.=20
=20
Dan
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20


  _____ =20

	From: Natale, Bob [mailto:RNATALE@mitre.org]=20
=09
	Meeting 2 - Thursday March 22, 2007 - 9:00 to 11:30AM
	...
	5. Mini-BOF G: OWL techniques for MIB to XML documents and
schema
	translation - Bob Natale (total: 40 min)
	=20


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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D777323418-28022007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2><STRONG><EM>Just a logistics detail at this point. The second =
OPS Area=20
meeting moved to Wednesday afternoon&nbsp;sessions I and II. See <A=20
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_agenda_html.cgi?meeti=
ng_num=3D68">https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_agenda_html.cgi?=
meeting_num=3D68</A>.=20
The good news is that we have now at hand 2 hours on Monday and 3 hours =
for=20
Wednesday. We'll work on a re-shuffled agenda to be posted in the coming =
days.=20
</EM></STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D777323418-28022007><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D777323418-28022007><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Dan</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D777323418-28022007><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D777323418-28022007><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
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  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Natale, Bob =
[mailto:RNATALE@mitre.org]=20
  <BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2>Meeting 2 - =
Thursday March 22,=20
  2007 - 9:00 to 11:30AM</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D138273016-28022007><FONT face=3DVerdana =
color=3D#800000=20
  size=3D2>...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000 size=3D2>5. Mini-BOF G: OWL =
techniques for=20
  MIB to XML documents and schema<BR>translation - Bob Natale (total: 40 =

  min)</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#800000=20
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From ops-area-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 14:43:54 2007
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de>
To: STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN <emile.stephan@orange-ftgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [OPS-AREA]
	draft-stephan-ops-xml-mib-module-template-00.txt:XML template for
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On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 07:08:51PM +0100, STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN wrote:

> As more and more people are writing IETF document in XML, as RFC 
> editor asks for the XML version of the draft if available, MIB 
> editors need a comfortable way to edit MIB module part of the draft 
> in XML too. 

This is a claim for which I like to see substance. I have written xml2rfc
formatted documents that include MIB modules and I find it easier to write
the MIB module with my favourite editor, directly using all the tools I
have around to validate MIB modules and so on. Writing XML tags for all
the SMI constructs would have significantly increased the work. I like
to know why writing all this XML <t> markup should safe me any time.

> I edit PCE WG MIBs draft in XML in that way; it works (see PCE DIS MIB 
> below) without any complaint of Smilint. So there is not any side effect 
> regarding MIB doctor tasks. 

I works is nice, but not sufficient. What is the time saving?

> There is no other language inside the IETF standardization process than 
> the SMI to encourage the specification of precise management object. So 
> I propose to provide XML applications with the capability to load MIB 
> module.

Get your favourite SMI to XML translator and there you are.
 
> Regarding the second point, it is clear the proposed XML template is 
> just an overlay over SMI macros. So the intense usage of <t><list> is 
> not elegant even if the Xpath may be reduced to //list[@smi]/list/t. 
> On the other hand, as the SMI is already formal there is not a big 
> benefit to double markups. 

Here you contradict yourself. If the goal is to make SMI definitions
accessible to XML parsers, then it is pointless to say that all you get
is a bunch of <t> elements and you still have to parse the data contained
in the <t> elements.
 
> Finally, several questions related to the need of minimum connection 
> between SMI and XML:
> *	Do we need to make MIB editing more friendly? What are the benefits 
>       of doing it?

This is a very difficult subject since "more friendly" is difficult to
define and evaluate. For me, more markup is a waste of time; I would
prefer an approach which allows me to write less rather than more.

> *	Are there any protocols relying on XML data model that need to load, 
>       or that will take benefit of loading, part of MIB module for 
>       configuring or for monitoring? Is there something else proposed 
>       by IETF? 

There are tools out there that can translate SMI modules to XML documents
or even XML schemas. They have been used for years - running code. There
is not point in starting with another format of opaque <t> elements.

> *	Is that urgent? How are we going to deal with double management 
>   	interface? Can we afford to go through a long standardization 
>  	process related to XML SMI without providing some initial guidance 
>	and tools? 

The time it takes to standardize something depends on the energy behind
it. The question is whether enough people care about interoperability
here. Again, SMI to XML translations are out there for years. I am not
against standardizing them if there is an added value of doing so. So
we need to understand where the added value comes from.

> *	Is this draft a first piece of the solution? What are the other 
>	pieces ?

Yes. :)

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder		 Jacobs University Bremen
<http://www.eecs.iu-bremen.de/>	 P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany

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From ops-area-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 19:48:58 2007
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Hi Andy,

I think you might be right about the SNMPv3 security bullet.  Two
considerations:

1. There will definitely be implementations in which the "SOA/WSDL NMS
applications" (to use your term*) will use the converted MIB data
models to speak their language to a proxy agent that converts back into
SNMP operations/messages, talks to the SNMP agents for the managed
entities, and then performs the return translations.  Are you sure we
don't need to protect SNMPv3 security capabilities for that scenario?

2. Also, don't you think it might be possible to offer improvements wrt
access control and security integration, as you note, as a superset of
an approach that protects SNMPv3 security for the case described above?

So, I'd just like some additional consideration from you and others
about this before going ahead and deleting the bullet.

In conjunction with the above, I think you are also right that the
centrality of SMIv2 as the "technology" of interest here needs to be
made clearer and emphasized more.

I plan a -01 rev prior to Prague (although it probably won't go into
the official I-D database until afterwards).  I'll be happy to have
co-authors as well (for those who want to contribute text, etc.).

* - Terminology in the SOA/Web Services Management space is really
unsettled...all suggestions/guidance will be appreciated in identifying
the right set of terms we should use.

Cheers,
BobN

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Bierman [mailto:ietf@andybierman.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 1:02 PM
To: Natale, Bob
Cc: OPS Area
Subject: Re: [OPS-AREA] Converting SNMP MIBs to SOA/Web Services
Management Artifacts

Hi Bob,


I agree with you about the scope of the problem,
and I'm looking forward to the BoF.

I'm very interested in the problem of automated translation,
and a procedural model (based on NETCONF standard and extended
operations) that can directly integrate with SOA/WSDL NMS applications.

The only paragraph in your draft I really disagree with
is the final bullet in Sec. 3, about possible WG charter items:

  o  Nothing that is inconsistent with management entity support for
     SNMPv3 security and access control mechanisms will be introduced
     into the solution(s) standardized by this effort.

IMO, this requirement removes the possibility for real improvement
in the areas of access control and security integration.
In reality, an SNMP agent isn't going to be accepting the NM connection
for this new SOA interface.  It is more practical to use
a user-session-based protocol like NETCONF (or CLI over SSH2 even),
and interface to the SNMP engine in the agent implementation.

An access control model that accounts for verbs, classes, nested data,
and other SOA-like details is going to be easier to implement than
VACM.

I believe the only component needed from 'the SNMP world' is SMIv2.
Standard translation from SMIv2 to XSD allows a high-level API to
reuse the semantics and algorithmic name translation of individual
MIB tables and objects in the definition of 'methods' (or verbs or
procedures or operations, or whatever else these are called).

These methods are not a normative component of SNMP.
They are usually not defined at all, and if they are,
it is usually in non-normative appendices or examples.

Basing a high-level API on low-level SNMP get* and set operations
is going to be much more complicated than almost any other
implementation choice.  Encoding SNMP operations in XML is
a "worst of both worlds" scenario.


Andy



> Hi,
> =20
> [Rushing out to a meeting....]
> =20
> Just in case people did not catch the announcement, the following I-D

> was posted for the Prague mini-BOF indicated below:
> "Converting SNMP MIBs to SOA/Web Services Management Artifacts",
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-natale-snmp-mibs-to-ontology-
00.txt.
> =20
> This topic is considerably broader than the MIB-to-XML work proposed
by=20
> Emile, but (while a primary purpose of the BOF and the WG it proposes
is=20
> to identify the right set of artifacts) it is almost certain that=20
> correct and efficient XML encoding of MIBs will be at the basis of
the=20
> desired artifacts, so it is good that we are having that discussion
(and=20
> that Emile's BOF presentation precedes this one on the agenda).
> =20
> Meeting 2 - Thursday March 22, 2007 - 9:00 to 11:30AM
> ...
> 5. Mini-BOF G: OWL techniques for MIB to XML documents and schema
> translation - Bob Natale (total: 40 min)
> =20
> Specification of a standard methodology for translating SNMP MIBs
into
> outputs more directly usable by emerging SOA/web services management
> tools, and specification of a standard methodology for validating
those
> translations.  Appropriate translation outputs are TBD by the WG, but
> can be expected to include one or more of the following: XML, RDF,
WSDL,
> WS-Policy, WS-Event/Notification, Ontology.  The translation
output(s)
> should allow for extension of the respective managed element data
model
> in the native SOA/web services environment.  Because of the
> extensibility objective, reverse translation back into SNMP MIB
format
> is a non-goal of the WG, but the possibility should be considered
when
> weighing alternatives.
> =20
> Cheers,
> BobN
>=20
>=20
>
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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:23:17 -0800
From: Andy Bierman <ietf@andybierman.com>
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To: "Natale, Bob" <RNATALE@mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [OPS-AREA] Converting SNMP MIBs to SOA/Web Services Management
	Artifacts
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Natale, Bob wrote:
> Hi Andy,
> 
> I think you might be right about the SNMPv3 security bullet.  Two
> considerations:
> 
> 1. There will definitely be implementations in which the "SOA/WSDL NMS
> applications" (to use your term*) will use the converted MIB data
> models to speak their language to a proxy agent that converts back into
> SNMP operations/messages, talks to the SNMP agents for the managed
> entities, and then performs the return translations.  Are you sure we
> don't need to protect SNMPv3 security capabilities for that scenario?
> 

I never liked SNMP Proxy, so I'm not a fan of this use case.
I think we can avoid specifics by writing a good Security Considerations
section, which would include mappings between each 'high-level'
operation and the minimum security level in VACM.
(E.g., edit-config --> auth/priv, get-config --> auth/no-priv,
close-session --> no-auth/no-priv).


> 2. Also, don't you think it might be possible to offer improvements wrt
> access control and security integration, as you note, as a superset of
> an approach that protects SNMPv3 security for the case described above?
> 

There are several RPC-related features I want to use in NETCONF
that do not map well to VACM:

  1) Exec operations (e.g., ping).
     VACM forces a static data model, instead of a verb, that
     gets filled in with parameters and activated with RowStatus.
     This is a clumsy and even obsolete programming paradigm.

  2) Create data model instances with agent-supplied index components,
     and return the agent-supplied values in the 'set response'.
     Sometimes the manager doesn't control or care about the instance ID.
     I don't think it would be easy to do this with SNMP and VACM.

  3) Perform access control on the type of verb (e.g., config, monitor,
     exec, debug) or by namespace URI of the verb (or nested parameters
     to the verb).

It is CLI, not SNMP, that is driving XML-based NM like NETCONF.
I am not convinced that constraining any new high-level API
for the sake of SNMP Proxy would be a popular decision.


> So, I'd just like some additional consideration from you and others
> about this before going ahead and deleting the bullet.
> 
> In conjunction with the above, I think you are also right that the
> centrality of SMIv2 as the "technology" of interest here needs to be
> made clearer and emphasized more.
> 
> I plan a -01 rev prior to Prague (although it probably won't go into
> the official I-D database until afterwards).  I'll be happy to have
> co-authors as well (for those who want to contribute text, etc.).
> 
> * - Terminology in the SOA/Web Services Management space is really
> unsettled...all suggestions/guidance will be appreciated in identifying
> the right set of terms we should use.
> 
> Cheers,
> BobN


Andy

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Bierman [mailto:ietf@andybierman.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 1:02 PM
> To: Natale, Bob
> Cc: OPS Area
> Subject: Re: [OPS-AREA] Converting SNMP MIBs to SOA/Web Services
> Management Artifacts
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> 
> I agree with you about the scope of the problem,
> and I'm looking forward to the BoF.
> 
> I'm very interested in the problem of automated translation,
> and a procedural model (based on NETCONF standard and extended
> operations) that can directly integrate with SOA/WSDL NMS applications.
> 
> The only paragraph in your draft I really disagree with
> is the final bullet in Sec. 3, about possible WG charter items:
> 
>   o  Nothing that is inconsistent with management entity support for
>      SNMPv3 security and access control mechanisms will be introduced
>      into the solution(s) standardized by this effort.
> 
> IMO, this requirement removes the possibility for real improvement
> in the areas of access control and security integration.
> In reality, an SNMP agent isn't going to be accepting the NM connection
> for this new SOA interface.  It is more practical to use
> a user-session-based protocol like NETCONF (or CLI over SSH2 even),
> and interface to the SNMP engine in the agent implementation.
> 
> An access control model that accounts for verbs, classes, nested data,
> and other SOA-like details is going to be easier to implement than
> VACM.
> 
> I believe the only component needed from 'the SNMP world' is SMIv2.
> Standard translation from SMIv2 to XSD allows a high-level API to
> reuse the semantics and algorithmic name translation of individual
> MIB tables and objects in the definition of 'methods' (or verbs or
> procedures or operations, or whatever else these are called).
> 
> These methods are not a normative component of SNMP.
> They are usually not defined at all, and if they are,
> it is usually in non-normative appendices or examples.
> 
> Basing a high-level API on low-level SNMP get* and set operations
> is going to be much more complicated than almost any other
> implementation choice.  Encoding SNMP operations in XML is
> a "worst of both worlds" scenario.
> 
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
>> Hi,
>>  
>> [Rushing out to a meeting....]
>>  
>> Just in case people did not catch the announcement, the following I-D
> 
>> was posted for the Prague mini-BOF indicated below:
>> "Converting SNMP MIBs to SOA/Web Services Management Artifacts",
>>
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-natale-snmp-mibs-to-ontology-
> 00.txt.
>>  
>> This topic is considerably broader than the MIB-to-XML work proposed
> by 
>> Emile, but (while a primary purpose of the BOF and the WG it proposes
> is 
>> to identify the right set of artifacts) it is almost certain that 
>> correct and efficient XML encoding of MIBs will be at the basis of
> the 
>> desired artifacts, so it is good that we are having that discussion
> (and 
>> that Emile's BOF presentation precedes this one on the agenda).
>>  
>> Meeting 2 - Thursday March 22, 2007 - 9:00 to 11:30AM
>> ...
>> 5. Mini-BOF G: OWL techniques for MIB to XML documents and schema
>> translation - Bob Natale (total: 40 min)
>>  
>> Specification of a standard methodology for translating SNMP MIBs
> into
>> outputs more directly usable by emerging SOA/web services management
>> tools, and specification of a standard methodology for validating
> those
>> translations.  Appropriate translation outputs are TBD by the WG, but
>> can be expected to include one or more of the following: XML, RDF,
> WSDL,
>> WS-Policy, WS-Event/Notification, Ontology.  The translation
> output(s)
>> should allow for extension of the respective managed element data
> model
>> in the native SOA/web services environment.  Because of the
>> extensibility objective, reverse translation back into SNMP MIB
> format
>> is a non-goal of the WG, but the possibility should be considered
> when
>> weighing alternatives.
>>  
>> Cheers,
>> BobN
>>
>>
>>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
>> _______________________________________________
>> OPS-AREA mailing list
>> OPS-AREA@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ops-area
> 
> 
> 


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